00:12:48 -!- audioPhil has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:13:24 Phantom__Hoover: there's no \omicron 00:13:33 and just typing an o would seem wrong 00:13:50 perhaps I could try to find one in Unicode, although LaTeX+Unicode is its own brand of "fun" 00:14:32 isn't the latex way that you just type an o 00:15:01 yeah but that's a different letter 00:15:04 wow 00:15:11 omega is literally greek for 'big o' 00:15:22 hehe 00:15:48 Phantom__Hoover: and omicron is greek for 'small o' 00:15:58 ... 00:16:01 mind = blown 00:16:02 how did I never notice this before now 00:16:08 admittedly, an omicron looks enough like an o that if someone slipped one into the conversation, I wouldn't notice 00:16:28 ais523, yeah, although i thought 'big o' was more amusing 00:16:39 omega notation 00:17:01 one of these is an omicron: ooο 00:17:04 guess which one! 00:17:09 alsο that sοunds like a great way of pοintlessly cοmplicating text 00:17:58 I guess I have enough of a programming mind to assume that an o and an ο can always be distinguished given enough effort 00:17:59 I'm pretty sure they used that kind of tricks to prevent students from copying lines from the subject into our programs 00:18:05 οοοοοοοοοοοοοοοοοοοο 00:18:10 oooooooooooooooooooo 00:18:17 no visible difference in this font 00:18:26 for a second there i thought ais was just really interested by something 00:18:29 Koen_: why would thy want to prevent you doing that? 00:18:37 in my font the difference is a 1px offset 00:18:42 they give you the prototype of a function with an extremely long name and a quintillion arguments, but no, you have to type it all by yourself because some of the letters aren't the letters you think and won't compile 00:18:51 ais523: how do I know 00:19:04 suggn. make a thing to normalise it 00:19:13 Koen_: do you get the exercise as PDFs? it could just be an encoding issue in LaTeX 00:19:22 yes 00:19:24 that happened all the time with the exercises my predecessors gave the students 00:19:34 I need to learn latex :( 00:19:34 actually it inserting spaces into identifiers was even more of a problem 00:19:42 suggn. add. use ocr for this purpose 00:20:13 at least in LyX, it seems to be fixable via a) telling it to turn off fontenc, and b) repeatedly setting the language to "reset" even though you never changed it 00:22:15 apropopos of nothing, i saw this story on /r/math about a guy who was trying to remove all the formatting stuff from a latex document 00:22:21 so he googled 'latex stripper' 00:22:27 awesome 00:22:36 haha 00:22:40 and the best part was, the results were what he was looking for 00:22:41 wow 00:22:59 are you just tricking us into googling it 00:23:03 might have had safesearch on? 00:23:09 or have been very strongly bubbled 00:23:18 also only one result would need to be correct for it to be useful 00:24:07 well i just googled it 00:24:21 the first two results are about... stripping latex paint from wood 00:24:31 the next five are all exactly what you'd expect 00:24:50 @@google latex stripper 00:24:53 @google latex stripper 00:24:55 http://toolmonger.com/2009/09/25/reader-question-stripping-latex-paint/ 00:24:55 Title: Reader Question: Stripping Latex Paint | Toolmonger 00:25:14 I'm not sure what I'd expect 00:25:17 especially given the context 00:25:41 people stripping 00:25:44 whilst wearing latex 00:26:30 right 00:26:33 I'd probably expect feminine people 00:26:37 I guess that was a strong possibility 00:27:15 how about people stripping from wearing latex??????how about it 00:28:33 anyway, this sort of thing is why Ubuntu use adjective animals for their version name 00:28:40 so that there's at least a chance of being able to websearch them 00:30:18 os x does that as well 00:30:53 should we be afraid of finding articles about houses with eight windows? 00:32:30 well those are probably more worksafe than latex strippers 00:33:28 latew strippers make up a good story 00:33:55 also a good cover story if you get caught looking for porn 00:35:17 hot 00:43:35 not so good if you're not into latex 00:43:37 or strippers 00:45:53 seriously considered writing verilog macrology to turn truth tables into PoS for me. apparently verilog macros suck 00:46:14 what does PoS stand for there? 00:46:17 product of sums 00:46:18 also, I recommend a code generator 00:46:22 yeah i wrote one 00:46:25 still annoying 00:46:34 also, why that way round? sum of products is more common 00:46:40 because it's homework. 00:46:43 (that's where the upsilon came from, actually) 00:46:51 can't you turn truth tables into PoS using any other programming language than verilog macros? 00:46:56 yes. that is what i did. 00:47:15 I guess you could use a K-map 00:47:21 anyway, semirelated, why do ctrl-c/v and ctrl/shift-insert use different clipboards, and how do i not... how do i fix this 00:47:23 it's what they were invented for 00:47:30 ais523: literally have to write out a pos expression. 00:47:41 "piece of shit" is running through my mind, i assure you. 00:48:19 try to find some way to interpret it as "point of sale" 00:48:21 i suppose in x they're probably called "buffers" or "rings" or something else weird 00:48:41 well a truth table is trivially converted into a sum of products, and then you just have to factor that product 00:48:42 maybe it's just urxvt. anyway, ugh 00:48:53 koen i know how to do this. i'm just complaining because it's really dull 00:49:19 Bike: X actually has like 10 clipboards 00:49:20 (is that always possible?) 00:49:23 argh 00:49:28 but two of them are the most commonly used 00:49:39 Bike: is that for some kind of "logic class"? 00:49:42 the one that copy-paste is meant to use (PRIMARY), and a temporary one that exists whenever you select anything 00:49:45 i just want to be able to paste from emacs to xilinx. 00:50:03 Koen_: circuit design. i already took intro logic and got pissed off at truth tables there 00:50:13 Bike: if it's an old or misconfigured Emacs, you'll have to choose copy from the menus 00:50:14 hahaha 00:50:21 rather than using any of Emacs' copy-like keyboard inputs 00:50:35 ais523: i think it's urxvt, i'm using ctrl-insert for copy and it works between terms but not into something modern 00:50:35 if it's very old, the only way I found to do it involved some custom elisp 00:50:42 and then I only got it working like 50% of the time 00:50:52 i hate computers. 00:51:07 i think i'll just write it all into a file because you know what? fuck. fuck 00:51:59 Bike: I took intro logic and got into an argument with the teacher because in my opinion she was trying to teach the students that the most obvious, basic common sense was not at all obvious but rather some kind of dull boolean arithmetic with complicated laws 00:52:10 here we go, possibly the first elisp I ever wrote: http://sprunge.us/ebPQ 00:52:13 that was on SunOS 00:52:25 where my first esolanging also took place 00:52:25 Koen_: my professor got fired. 00:52:31 hahaha 00:52:56 Are you talking about the Aristotle/Boole thing? 00:53:01 That annoyed some of my CSy friends. 00:54:02 and uh there kind of are complicated laws? Like, de morgan's is pretty easy but i wouldn't call it "common sense" exactly 00:54:12 de morgan's are*, whatever 00:54:26 Bike: well I was struggling with this literally last night 00:54:32 suppose you have a boolean expression 00:54:43 and you want to determine if it's a contradiction or not entirely using rewrite rules 00:54:47 also they can only apply at the top level 00:55:08 and you want to keep the set reasonably small (not necessarily golfed, but not with very large or unreadable rules) 00:55:16 mm that does sound annoying 00:55:21 oh and this is a proper parse tree with binary and and or 00:55:26 no n-ary versions 00:55:39 in the end, I found a way to avoid having to solve the problem 00:55:49 that's the spirit! 00:56:00 partly because it felt a lot like esolang design, and it was an inappropriate venue for that 00:56:16 partly because I'm almost convinced that the simplest solution is unexpectedly complex 00:57:02 it reminds me of when Snowflake had two stack manip instructions: one which rotated or unrotated the top three elements 00:57:09 and one which moved the top stack element to the bottom, or vice versa 00:57:18 this turns out to not be enough to implement swap 00:57:36 kind of wish that i could turn in my generator with the assignment, oh well. 00:57:39 (I later removed the second of those instructions to make programming in it more interesting, because it turned out not to be needed for anything I wanted to do) 01:07:20 well i generated some pices of shot. good enough for me 01:09:29 Bike: is de morgan's the thing with not(a and b) = (not a) or (not b)? 01:09:50 that's just common sense, yes 01:10:25 "and" and "or" make sense not just as truth tables but because they actually mean something 01:11:33 it's not common sense in that you don't generally have to teach it. 01:12:20 well I don't believe you should have to teach that as some theorem 01:12:33 It should be taught as axiomatic? 01:12:41 no 01:12:56 as "think about it, that's logic and it makes sense and you can figure it out yourself" 01:13:14 you realise humans are kind of awful at thinking logically? 01:13:24 that's why we invent formal systems, with rules, that you can teach people, and prove things with. 01:13:42 that's scary and sad 01:13:55 so we don't have to appeal to some common sense that isn't really all that common -- for instance, in natural language "or" often means something closer to "xor" 01:14:19 and logical implication and "if ..., then ..." have a very tricky and unclear relationship, lots of arguments about the best way to model it 01:14:29 It's only scary if you expected people to think like this logical system you dreamed up. 01:14:48 I think "a or b" always means "a or b", but sometimes the context has an implicit "if you pick a you won't get a chance to pick b" 01:14:58 I don't really think it's scary, I just think you're being a bit arrogant about the material :P even if it's intuitively obvious when stated as an English sentence, that doesn't mean it's not important to teach in a formal context 01:15:01 so, it doesn't always mean "a or b". 01:15:04 is what you just said. 01:15:19 elliott: I'm not saying formal is useless, far from it 01:15:52 Bike: what I just said is that the only difference between formal and everyday is that everyday has implicit stuff 01:16:10 That's kind of a huge difference? 01:16:29 elliott: writing mathematical papers in English is a pain 01:16:34 not so big; you could formalize everyday by explicitating the implicit thing 01:16:34 because I have to spell out which is meant every time I use "or" 01:16:43 and my supervisor apparently doesn't understand "and/or" 01:16:57 I abhor and/or 01:17:02 In which case you show that spoken "a or b" means formal "a xor b", apparently? 01:17:22 Bike: spoken "a or b" doesn't necessarily means formal "a xor b" Bike 01:17:33 sometimes it does, but not always 01:17:38 almost like there's no simple mapping to formal concepts 01:17:57 * Bike slightly bitter about this general idea for other reasons. i apologize. 01:17:57 yes there is you just need to figure out what was implicitly assumed 01:18:05 that isn't simple. 01:18:16 well you've managed to survive life for so long 01:18:23 so apparently it's not so difficult 01:18:29 What? 01:18:37 Life doesn't have these formal concepts in it, usually. 01:18:55 but everyday life has everyday concepts surely 01:18:56 I think you're a bit confused as to what the point of formal logic is :/ 01:19:12 Yes, it has everyday concepts. 01:19:22 the teacher isn't really telling you about de Morgan's laws so you can use them in everyday reasoning where you wouldn't be able to before. 01:19:24 I deal with everyday concepts without thinking of formal xor at all, generally. 01:19:28 elliott: well I'm not denying formal logic may have a point but formal logic as it is taught at our university surely fails to make its point 01:19:32 like, it's never come up. 01:19:44 elliott: there was a shop (sadly, now closed) on the way to the University which advertised with contrapositives 01:19:54 If you can't buy a bed today, you are not in Beds Directs! 01:19:56 *Beds Direct 01:20:07 I'm not sure how effective it was 01:20:13 oh btw Bike you're a biologist right 01:20:23 who would win in a fight, a pistol shrimp or a mantis shrimp 01:20:27 according to elliott, and elliott is basically god, so yes 01:21:11 well, i don't know most of their behavior off the top of my head, but pistol shrimp usually deal with shelled prey, don't they? maybe they wouldn't work so well on something soft 01:21:25 mantis shrimps have shells don't they 01:22:00 i don't know! 01:22:11 fucking useless 01:22:20 ask someone who does!! 01:22:21 bite me motherfucker 01:22:44 are you two about to make out 01:22:57 this isn't homestuck you shipping weirdo 01:22:58 we're about to penis fence, as is traditional for biologists 01:23:07 anyway i can't optimize this expression well ugh i'm incompetent 01:23:18 a shit programmer and a shit biologist 01:23:18 expression? 01:23:24 waaaah you're mean 01:23:34 come on, there's chemistry here! 01:23:39 does shipping work on real-life people? 01:23:40 on top of the biology and programming 01:23:49 (~(C+D)(A^B))|(~(CD)(A^B)) 01:23:54 there's something obvious but i can't think of it. 01:24:06 ais523, yes, they made quite a business of it back in the 18th century 01:24:15 what's the difference between C+D and CD? 01:24:18 Bike: factor out the A xor Bs 01:24:19 er 01:24:22 Fiora: or versus and 01:24:25 C|D and C*D if you want 01:24:27 oh. but what's |? 01:24:29 or 01:24:32 oh. 01:24:33 wait, are | and + both or? 01:24:35 wow factoring yes 01:24:38 no wonder people are confused 01:24:42 ais523: cf incompetence :( 01:24:47 i thought + was xor 01:24:52 I thought ^ was xor 01:24:54 no, that's + with a circle 01:24:57 ^ is xor you know what never mind 01:25:02 maybe ABCD aren't booleans and it's bitwise or vs. addition! 01:25:09 thought ^ was and 01:25:11 Bike just said "expression". 01:25:16 well in that case I insist on interpreting it as OIL 01:25:18 you're the ones making assumptions here! 01:25:20 maybe i meant lie groups 01:25:22 !!!!! 01:25:28 for my circuit design class. 01:25:28 in which case, err, it's pretty much what elliott suggested, just with more syntax errors 01:25:50 Bike: fix your operand names 01:25:51 there's something beautiful about using concatenation for multiplication at the same time as bitwise operators. 01:25:56 never 01:26:03 is (~(C+D))|(~(C|D)) just ~(C+D)? 01:26:14 it's one or the other 01:26:19 i'm sorry 01:26:23 I'm too jaded to work out which, because I was doing that all night 01:26:27 except with \oplus and \odot 01:26:40 I meant like isn't it the same unless I'm just reading it wrong or something 01:26:49 i wrote it wrong 01:27:10 Fiora: I tried to parse your line as a haiku, because of the spaces 01:27:12 but it doesn't 01:27:24 ? @_@ 01:27:33 laughed irl at that 01:28:00 well when you see three shortish phrases 01:28:02 it does make a good poem 01:28:03 that are separated 01:28:18 -_- 01:28:29 also to be a proper haiku, as well as being 5/7/5, it'd also need to mention a season somewhere 01:28:48 `quote beautiful summer 01:28:50 433) beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ 1038) beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone 01:29:03 :-D 01:29:03 ooh, we have two now? 01:29:06 ...I completely forget the context to 1038. 01:29:08 `quote snowman without snow 01:29:10 No output. 01:29:12 :( 01:29:18 `quote SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW 01:29:20 No output. 01:29:21 also, I like the last line of that second haiku 01:29:23 oh shit. 01:29:24 `quote snowman 01:29:26 No output. 01:29:26 I like the first one too, but I've seen it before 01:29:32 oh /shit/ 01:29:42 `pastlog snowman without snow 01:30:00 update: i think i got it down to (A^B)CD. now going to check the truth table because god i'm a failure 01:30:08 wait, that won't work. 01:30:11 see, there we go 01:30:11 2011-01-30.txt:16:20:30: And the nicely zen U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW. 01:30:27 hm maybe it's or 01:30:30 I thought it was ~(C+D) | (A^B) or is that the same thing 01:30:39 nah it's different 01:30:40 OK, esolangs.org game: keep clicking random, count how many BF derivatives you find before you reach a language you created 01:30:49 if you're depressed by the result, create a language to improve your chances 01:31:09 I think that only works even vaguely well if you've created a billion languages 01:31:12 I think I probably should have just used a kmap. 01:31:21 what if one of your languages IS a bf derivative.... 01:31:28 ais523: what if you find a BF derivatives *you created* 01:31:36 yeah, fuck me 01:31:37 and what if mnoqy just said that 01:31:54 well, if I find reversible BF or The Language That Cannot BE Spelled, I'll let you know 01:32:00 or dofuck, but I'm not sure if that's on the wiki yet 01:32:14 huh, I just hit () twice in a row 01:32:14 if you hit your own BF derivative you finish your drink 01:32:23 ais523: the thing is, i'm afraid playing your game will only result in more bf derivatives being created 01:32:38 huh, I just hit zzo38's BF derivative 01:32:49 Koen_: OK, if you hit your own BF derivative, you have to keep going 01:32:57 makes sense 01:32:57 thus making it impossible to create BF derivatives to escape the cycle 01:33:14 so i'm pretty sure creating a a language diminishes your chances 01:33:16 what if i haven't made any languages... do i just keep going forever 01:33:24 4 so far 01:33:30 am i going to die. tell it to me straight doc 01:33:31 Bike: you make one, it's the only way to escape 01:33:35 Koen_: well low scores are good 01:33:48 now hum I meant the score will get higher 01:33:53 ooh, StateFlip; that's /based/ on one of mine 01:34:03 so that's promising 01:34:24 is that a 2-dimensional brainfuck derivative with booleans instead of chars? 01:34:27 bleh, 5 now, and that's the same as last time 01:34:37 Koen_: no, it's a BackFlip derivative, and has nothing to do with BF 01:34:53 what if i make brainfuck derivatives to worsen everyone else's scores 01:34:54 ***B***ack***F***lip 01:34:56 do we count Schrodilang? It /might/ be a BF derivative 01:34:56 try again 01:35:01 mnoqy: you'll worsen your own more 01:35:09 unless you have more languages than, say, me or cpressey 01:35:09 jesus i started with the wrong sum of products 01:35:19 pretty soon i'm going to find that i accidentally proved zfc consistent. 01:35:22 so I tried playing 01:35:27 OK, 6 now 01:35:39 and I just realize it's possible you find a page that's neither a bf derivative nor a language you created 01:35:52 OK, BF derivative derivative derivative 01:35:58 does this count or not? 01:36:07 I guess I have to go to 7, even if it /is/ by cpressey 01:36:25 actually most of them aren't BF derivatives 01:36:31 also i just went through like 5 pages without hitting a bf derivative, I think that's a record? 01:36:47 nah, I often manage more than that 01:36:50 up to 8 now though :( 01:37:19 9, and a particularly bad example 01:37:44 wait, I just realised I have 3 BF derivatives 01:37:54 because one of them was linked from the page I was just on (which isn't a language, so it didn't increase my score) 01:38:24 hmm, now I'm not sure whether x-D counts 01:38:47 it doesn't claim to be a BF derivative, nor does it particularly look like a BF deriv page 01:39:08 aha, it isn't 01:39:17 no tape 01:39:25 just it looks like it embeds BF's commands, that's all 01:39:30 so i'm already at 10 bf derivatives, and in case of doubt I didn't count the languages as bf derivatives 01:39:38 does it need to have a tape to be a bf deriv 01:39:38 and haven't found a language of mine yet 01:39:48 10 too 01:39:59 mnoqy: it has to have some strong similarity 01:40:10 if it doesn't have a tape, it's not a BF deriv unless its instructions are clearly based on BF's 01:40:24 OK, oklopol brings me to 11 01:40:30 it's depressing how many of these are by channel regulars 01:41:00 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 01:41:08 gah 01:41:16 this is a page about two of my languages, neither of which are BF derivs 01:41:20 but it's not a language page itself 01:41:24 so it doesn't count :( 01:42:24 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:42:28 so I just hit 20 bf derivatives and still no sign of myself 01:42:36 though I did hit some pages four times 01:43:57 I'm depressed by the result but I'm gonna go to bed rather than create a language 01:45:09 now I'm on 20 01:45:14 did you hit () a lot? 01:45:25 MediaWiki's Special:Random is a little weirdly distributed 01:45:29 it prefers some pages to others 01:47:00 I didn't hit () at all 01:47:02 OK, after 24, I hit C-INTERCAL 01:47:13 and I'm tempted to count that, given the circumstances 01:47:16 meh, I'll keep going anyway 01:47:33 I hit C-Intercal but I think countint it would be more than bending the rules 01:47:53 Koen_: well you haven't invented many of the commands and maintained the interp 01:48:00 so yeah, it clearly doesn't count for /you/ :) 01:48:05 since I have never written a single line of program in intercal and don't even know what that would look like 01:48:28 yay, I get to not count 2D BF because it's a page talking about BF derivs 01:48:32 rather than a BF deriv in its own right 01:48:56 I was tempted not to count it but I had lost count anyway 01:49:16 and now Backtracking INTERCAL, which I wrote the first impl of 01:49:44 anyone know what's up with http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%E2%99%A6 ? 01:50:20 30… 01:50:32 I seriously thought it'd be much lower than that 01:50:39 I guess there are a /lot/ of BF derivs out there 01:50:57 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 01:51:11 -!- Bike has joined. 01:51:52 ais523: see the talk page, if you want to be even more confused 01:52:02 actually it cleared things up for me 01:52:08 * Bike realizes irritatedly that xnor(a,b,c) != xnor(xnor(a,b),c) 01:52:52 is that associativity? i'm too hungry to think about it 01:53:16 now 40 01:53:33 Bike: yeah, not associative 01:54:11 is there any good way to write xnor(a,b,c) with binary operator 01:54:12 s 01:54:14 Bike: is there a standard definition for n-ary nxor? 01:54:29 "they're all the same" is what i'm using 01:54:30 mentally 01:54:43 okay 01:55:03 (¬a&¬b&¬c)|(a&b&c) if you like, i guess 01:55:07 guess i'll write that. sux 01:55:09 yeah == cannot be chained in C 01:55:51 OK, can I please count Radixal!!!!? 01:55:56 sure 01:56:02 in that case I score 45 01:56:03 http://www.project-veripage.com/pmd.php oh god 01:56:04 fuck 01:56:21 "My simulator does not support Parameterized Macro Definition." why is this a property of the simulator 01:56:24 agh fuck it i'm getting food 01:58:49 I only scored 9 that time 01:59:14 again, I hit a language which I worked out the details and wrote the spec for, but wasn't simply mine 01:59:39 such a language could be a bf derivative 02:00:47 Quiler isn't 02:01:12 Bike: I can't think of simpler than (¬a&¬b&¬c)|(a&b&c) right now 02:01:15 soooo off to bed 02:01:17 bye 02:01:18 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 02:02:12 hmm, I was just at 1 before I hit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Index.php 02:02:26 sadly, not a language 02:03:10 -!- Koen_ has joined. 02:05:24 Koen_: that was quick 02:05:50 I sleep fast 02:06:08 also I realized someone highlighted me just before I quit 02:06:10 so I came back 02:06:24 but I'm gonna quit again soon I promise 02:06:52 OK, conclusions: if you want to do well at this, be either zzo38 or cpressey 02:07:43 although I'd do better even if I were whatever ihope127's current nick is 02:08:52 even Ngved would be beating me on these pages :( 02:09:23 -!- copumpkin has joined. 02:10:10 I think David/werecatt would do ok 02:11:01 okay quitting again 02:11:07 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 02:11:07 yeah, he's doing well on the Special:Random favoured pages 02:11:13 elliott: can you go reroll Special:Random? thx 02:11:50 maybe tomorrow -> 02:13:33 i ate but thingis are still terrible 02:14:39 also, more than half of these miscapitalize brainfuck 02:15:07 OK, 18 this time 02:15:09 and hit Black 02:15:21 which I like and am disappointed that it didn't get more attention 02:15:26 compared to BackFlip 02:15:38 anyway, there are a /lot/ of BF derivs out there 02:15:50 I didn't understand just how bad the problem was :( 02:28:54 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 02:39:55 -!- nisstyre has joined. 02:47:27 -!- SingingBoyo has joined. 04:12:50 The FUDGE 04:13:07 Some of my MIDIs have metadata such that Foobar2000 was actually able to give it a name 04:13:12 Well, one of my MIDIs 04:18:11 I have a 47 minute long MIDI file 04:22:58 Gregor: is there any reason to dislike BASSMIDI? 04:23:34 Erm, wait, I thought BASSMIDI was a thing that can be used to use soundfonts 04:29:45 -!- stuntaneous has joined. 04:36:09 https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/390156_187967128007447_1121325559_n.png i love hackers 05:27:47 They're so easy? 05:28:13 (That is a very impressive logo.) 05:28:28 syrianandproudtobe. weloveourleader. security. lions. 05:53:12 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:59:44 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 06:03:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:09:06 -!- augur_ has joined. 06:11:03 today at work we ate an unusual cake https://twitter.com/LostOracle/status/377879038498324480/photo/1 06:11:19 more congratulations!! 06:11:22 thx 06:11:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:12:50 the acid is what makes you see that background pattern, right? 06:14:24 little Servo is growing up so fast 06:16:15 yep 06:16:34 i didn't even make any #drugzjokes! 06:17:12 next you'll tell me there were none in the cake either 06:20:56 @tell boily so, from mathematics "S" is evil, but from programming it's just plain old print. <-- nah S is simple to handle mathematically, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Rewriting_semantics 06:20:56 Consider it noted. 06:23:41 -!- FreeFull has quit. 06:26:36 There's an incredibly nonsensical computer-security news item from the local public broadcasting company, but it's unfortunately in Finnish, so you perhaps can't quite appreciate it. 06:26:40 Paraphrasing, it says (among other things): "Normally, data is stored securely by collecting so much superfluous material around it that the actual information is obscured by the unnecessary information. This is called a firewall. By reducing the mass of information a small part at a time, a hacker can access the secured information no matter how good the firewall is, as long as he has sufficient resources." 06:27:08 the local breakdancing company 06:27:54 http://goo.gl/D2VT26 -- it really doesn't make any more sense before the translation either. 06:28:43 (Okay, the "new system" description manages to be perhaps one additional step of incoherent after Google Translate has had its fun.) 06:36:16 oh the /// page already had the proper CSS 06:36:37 -!- douglass has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:40:55 oerjan: S is easy, it's just annoying to deal with 06:41:30 @ask elliott Does removing white-space: pre-wrap from the /// quine make it look worse to others? 06:41:30 Consider it noted. 06:52:40 kmc: Fixed that for you http://heh.fi/tmp/cake.jpeg 06:53:51 ais523: did you handle S purely in the original implementation? 06:56:42 the original impl was rewriting 06:56:49 so it handled everything impurely ;) 06:57:10 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 06:57:14 most more advanced impls I've been involved with used a sidechannel for S data 07:16:58 oerjan: seriously, though, I have no idea what you mean by the question 07:17:36 well i consider rewriting to be pure 07:18:00 lambda calculus is a rewriting language, after all 07:19:09 so i guess i'm asking if your implementation calculated an equivalent form of the program that still included the output 07:44:30 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 07:53:30 well you have to be careful of programs like (x)S(:^):^ 07:53:42 which should produce output before the infinite loop happens 07:55:09 this is similar to weak head normal in lc and haskell 07:55:16 *normal form 07:55:19 -!- Taneb has joined. 07:59:11 fizzie: how does that new system work? 07:59:32 "In the size of the terminal from which the information is to fade from view by hackers. Security is cancellable only within the same system, and the non-protected data appears to be a wonder-ful As a paste." 08:04:46 olsner: I have absolutely no idea how it works, about all I can do is to provide an arguably more accurate translation. 08:04:50 olsner: "The new Unisys system works using an entirely different principle. In it, the entire device storing the information is hidden from the view of hackers. The protection can only be decrypted from within the same system, and for outside observers the information will appear as a nonsensical mess. This is possible because the information is encrypted in an earlier stage, before the IP address has been formed." 08:04:56 "hth" 08:05:24 `thanks yle 08:05:29 Thanks, yle. Thyle. 08:05:43 ei saa peittää 08:06:39 hmm, so the translation wasn't that bad after all 08:07:05 wonderful as a paste = nonsensical mess 08:08:51 That's the word "ihmeellinen" -- it has senses "wonderful, extraordinary" and "strange, weird, odd, curious". 08:09:01 The use is more of the latter, but the translation has picked the former. 08:09:49 those were often historically conflated in English too 08:10:27 and you can still get something of the duality in words like "astonishing" 08:10:27 how awful 08:11:59 The actual press release related to the article is pretty much equally content-free, but doesn't have the utterly nonsensical bits about firewalls. 08:12:02 The bit about "encrypted in an earlier stage, before the IP address has been formed" seems to mean that it works on OSI layer 2, and the bit about "hiding the device" and being accessible only "within the same system" seems to say the data is stored on something that's not as easily connectable from the public interwebs. 09:01:50 dammit the hello word quiz gave me BEGIN { print "Hello, world!" } 09:01:59 and a choice between awk and perl... 09:02:14 yeah lots of people have complained about that one 09:02:17 then claims it's awk, but it _works_ in perl. 09:02:26 although, it's correct in both, but hardly idiomatic in Perl 09:02:47 true but i don't think all the others are idiomatic either... 09:02:56 that said, the BEGIN seems useful for distinguishing Perl from other languages… 09:03:18 i _knew_ both awk and perl had it, of course. 09:03:33 but i was not sure if awk had straight up print. 09:04:15 although i shouldn't complain too much, this quiz has gone surprisingly well. although a lot of elimination rather than actually knowing the answer. 09:04:21 down to 1 life now. 09:05:38 heh poiuy_qwert has a program. where is he these days... 09:07:06 oh there was also the ?- write('Hello world!'), nl. 09:07:41 which a choice between prolog and something else. now i'm getting it _again_, but without what was the right answer the last time D: 09:08:04 and now it accepted prolog. 09:08:31 which i got wrong with afair the _same_ program last time 09:08:42 it's some OO prolog variant 09:09:01 logtalk, i think it was the last time. 09:09:07 also, should be :- not ?- for regular Prolog 09:09:20 ...that means the last one was _wrong_. 09:09:36 actually i'm not sure of that, isn't it ?- in the repl 09:09:47 (although you don't actually _type_ that, then.) 09:10:34 oh it finished. 09:10:35 yeah, it's ?- in the repl 09:10:43 it'd be :- to run it at program load in regular Prolog 09:10:53 and unless you run /something/ at program load, the program won't do anything at all 09:11:11 I guess the REPL is regular 09:11:15 i'm not sure if i got the last one there, since i got no message that i was wrong. 09:11:23 (5900 score) 09:12:44 hm the highest score is 6300, which seems to correspond to my 4 errors. 09:51:16 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:58:07 -!- Bike has joined. 10:10:33 this turns out to not be enough to implement swap <-- only even permutations, i think. 10:10:59 while swap is an odd one. 10:11:24 oerjan: yes 10:11:26 I realised that 10:18:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:33:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:37:45 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:39:22 -!- Koen_ has joined. 10:43:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 10:43:28 oerjan: are you sure the wrapping worked for the dupdog hello world program? 10:43:59 I see a VERY long line, with a horizontal scrolling bar to read it all 10:56:40 -!- Bike has joined. 11:03:14 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:03:38 -!- SingingBoyo has joined. 11:05:31 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Client Quit). 11:05:46 -!- SingingBoyo has joined. 11:21:15 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:23:07 -!- yorick has joined. 11:38:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:55:38 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:02:21 -!- Bike has joined. 12:19:54 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:23:09 -!- augur has joined. 12:27:58 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:28:00 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 12:28:15 -!- carado has joined. 12:32:18 -!- mnoqy has joined. 12:35:25 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:42:17 -!- carado has joined. 12:56:43 -!- boily has joined. 12:59:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:08:02 -!- augur has joined. 13:24:56 Roujo: http://pastebin.ca/2448959 13:47:55 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:53:05 -!- conehead has joined. 13:55:17 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:55:31 -!- Koen_ has joined. 14:01:54 -!- nooodl has joined. 14:01:59 -!- nooodl__ has joined. 14:01:59 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 14:02:36 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:02:38 -!- nooodl__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:04:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:05:16 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:05:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:06:26 -!- Bike has joined. 14:08:47 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:09:11 -!- olsner has joined. 14:10:08 -!- hypha has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:10:34 -!- hypha has joined. 14:13:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:23:46 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 14:40:23 Today's dmesg: 14:40:25 [429774.676809] Uhhuh. NMI received for unknown reason 2c on CPU 0. 14:40:25 [429774.676812] Do you have a strange power saving mode enabled? 14:40:25 [429774.676812] Dazed and confused, but trying to continue 14:40:59 I like it when they antormo.. antrohm.. ant.. arothmorphise things. 14:42:22 "assign human attributes" aha 14:44:22 `learn arothmorphise ... antormo... antrohm... ant... oh bugger. This should go in the `misspellings of antrhrop... atnhro...' entry. 14:44:28 I knew that. 15:05:18 I don't look at dmesg often enough to notice weird messages when they come up 15:06:29 hmm, something's trying to connect inbound on ports 443 and 6667 15:06:31 through a NAT, somehow 15:07:44 not even sure how you tunnel a port 443 connection through a NAT 15:07:51 6667 is almost believable on the basis that I'm on IRC atm 15:13:52 why would you try 443? aren't there other easier methods to exploit? 15:18:04 I didn't 15:18:04 this is me noticing what inbound stuff the firewall is blocking 15:18:18 I'm more interested in how they got to 443 past a NATty wireless router 15:18:20 -!- stuntaneous has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:18:37 I should have been pronomically clearer. s/you/one/. 15:20:29 I guess it's approximately as exploitable as 80? 15:21:59 ah? wouldn't you have to circumvent encryption to get to the juicy packet details? (fyi, ianac.) 15:22:43 (ianac: I am not a cracker. hth.) 15:22:49 boily: aren't you /sending/ the packet? 15:23:10 you don't need to circumvent the encryption because you're one of the parties who has the key 15:23:24 oh. right. iranac. 15:23:31 also, it could just be going on the basis of "443 is rarely firewalled" 15:23:38 fact. 15:23:41 people often run random things on 443 to get round firewalls 15:23:49 perhaps it's trying to exploit one of those 15:45:51 @tell oerjan looks the same to me 15:45:51 Consider it noted. 15:58:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:59:14 ais523: I got it written on console by syslogd, apparently the priority was high enough. 15:59:28 that seems quite high-priority 16:01:06 # Emergencies are sent to everybody logged in. 16:01:08 *.emerg :omusrmsg:* 16:01:26 It might have even been that, since I don't see much else in the syslog config that'd come in as a message like that. 16:01:59 (To correct myself, it wasn't written on console, it was a 'write'-style message.) 16:06:41 -!- denzuko has joined. 16:07:26 hey guys, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to comparitives/conditionals in bf? 16:08:35 hi denzuko 16:08:52 the basic idea behind conditionals is you have some cell on the tape that's 0 for false, non-0 for true 16:08:59 then you loop on it, and zero it at the end of the loop 16:09:17 that works fine so long as you don't mind both branches of your if going to the same square 16:09:29 then negation is quite easy to implement (set a cell to 1, conditionally set it to 0) 16:10:04 comparisons are a bit harder, you basically need to do a subtraction except track whether the cell crosses 0 16:10:12 -!- conehead has joined. 16:10:47 denzuko: you might want to read http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_x_.3C.3D_y for more information on how that works 16:12:05 ais523: yeah I read that one earlier, however from my understanding `temp0` does not exist in bf? 16:12:37 Sorry, I'm comming from a c++ and qbasic background (yes I do know a little asm code too) 16:12:50 denzuko: basically it means "move the tape pointer to a cell you designated as a temporary" 16:13:12 it's a placehbolder you fill in yourself 16:13:14 like, x and y and temp0 and temp1 can be anywhere 16:13:22 depending on where you want the temporary cell to be locatd 16:13:25 *ed 16:13:39 in fact, just look at the top of the page :) 16:13:40 and if you know where the tape pointer is (something it's always worth tracking while brainfucking), you can give an appropriate number of < or > to move there 16:13:41 it explains the notation 16:14:00 although, those comparisons look really overcomplex to me 16:14:05 perhaps they're more efficient? 16:14:08 @tell oerjan I think wrapping is perhaps an insufficient solution to [[♦‎]] :) 16:14:09 Consider it noted. 16:15:26 -!- audioPhil has joined. 16:15:26 -!- audioPhil has quit (Changing host). 16:15:26 -!- audioPhil has joined. 16:15:27 ah!! ok so the `temp0` is arbitrary and can be basically likened unto a [>][-] statement? 16:16:32 !bf +++>+++++<[->[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. 16:16:35 ​@ 16:16:39 !bf +++++>+++<[->[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. 16:16:40 ​@ 16:16:47 hmm, I've screwed up somewhere 16:16:57 it's hard to BF directly onto IRC 16:18:56 denzuko: you have to fill it in 16:19:05 basically if it says temp0, it means you have to move it to a predetermined cell you've set aside 16:19:10 because the algorithm needs temporary scratch space to calculate with 16:19:18 what have I done wrong? 16:19:21 so replace temp0 with some >s or elliott: that's kind of what I ment 16:19:33 (and make sure it doesn't overlap with any of the other placeholder locations) 16:20:12 thanks guys. now just to figure out interupts 16:20:29 -!- douglass has joined. 16:20:50 ais523: Loop opened at instruction 56 is never closed 16:21:09 denzuko: the loops there are balanced 16:21:28 you know what? I feel perverse, so I'm going to debug this in egojsout 16:23:29 oh ofc 16:23:36 !bf +++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. 16:23:36 ​@ 16:23:41 !bf +++++>+++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>. 16:23:41 ​? 16:23:43 there we go 16:23:53 that's /way/ simpler than the construction on the wiki 16:24:15 ais523: that was from my bf2nasm program 16:24:58 it's basically just a loop on arg 1 that decrements arg 2, then sets a flag if arg 2 is nonzero 16:25:03 err if it's zero 16:25:19 via incrementing it on nonzero and decrementing it always 16:25:30 !bf +++++>+++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+. 16:25:31 B 16:25:35 !bf +++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+. 16:25:35 A 16:25:38 !bf +++++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+. 16:25:39 B 16:25:42 are we playing bfjoust 16:25:46 Koen_: no, just BF 16:25:50 see, !bf not !bfjoust 16:25:56 I was debugging it in egojsout because I could, mostly 16:26:06 okay 16:27:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:54 -!- augur has joined. 16:30:27 nobody writes BF Joust code with that many < 16:30:36 I do >_> 16:30:36 well, except me, I guess 16:31:02 I have no idea how to optimize my BF code 16:31:04 Well 16:31:10 I do, but then I get lost in my code 16:40:50 -!- carado has joined. 16:51:14 use comments? 16:51:18 Does anyone here know someone named Elielson? 16:51:29 -!- copumpkin has joined. 16:51:30 or use some device that makes the code for you 16:51:46 Koen_: I tried =O 16:51:47 =P 16:51:49 as in you can declare a variable x and use x and the device will replace x with the appropriate amount of > or < 16:51:55 Oh, yeah 16:52:00 But I consider that cheating =P 16:52:15 and you can define a macro and the device will replace the macro with its code 16:57:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:58:10 -!- Bike has joined. 16:58:12 Hi 16:59:02 Heya 16:59:03 ^^ 17:05:23 what is an elielson? 17:08:20 I have no idea 17:08:35 He just privmsg'd me yesterday, saying "hello" 17:08:43 But I was off my bouncer, and he's not around anymore 17:08:49 And I have no clue who he is 17:09:02 His nick isn't registered, whowas doesn't tell me anything 17:09:28 I think an elielson was in here earlier 17:10:18 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 17:11:36 probably another Lost Colombian. 17:12:56 -!- Frooxius has joined. 17:25:27 “Bank robbery is punishable by 20 years in federal prison... bank robbery is punishable by... bank robbery is punishable by...” 17:25:37 (I like minimal music.) 17:31:30 it's gon' rain 17:34:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:36:19 Bike: :D 17:36:34 boily: Nani? =P 17:37:43 Roujo: http://youtu.be/n7JAns3PsB0 17:37:59 (and http://youtu.be/anXcSl5uFig) 17:39:45 That Compact Disk logo 17:39:46 Nice 17:39:57 Oooh, I like this 17:40:47 My musical ear is twitching, though 17:40:53 The meter is... fucked up 17:41:37 wat 17:41:55 the meter is most verily definitely strategically musically fungotted up. 17:41:55 boily: instead of tables 17:42:00 Something about air conditioning 17:42:21 Prematurely air conditioned supermarket 17:42:42 I don't even 17:43:50 don't worry. listen to the whole album. you can get gasoline shortest. these are the days my friends. one two three four. 17:44:06 -!- ais523 has quit. 17:47:09 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:47:11 fungot: if not tables, then when? 17:47:12 olsner: so do you understand the problem 17:52:10 usefully, bochs' debug option for logging exceptions prints the address of the exception handler, not the place where the exception happened 17:57:43 boily.fungot.moed++ 17:57:43 kmc: any command prompt... would be 17:59:44 Ominous 17:59:45 I like i 17:59:46 it 17:59:50 Well, I also like i 17:59:57 But not in the same way, sorry 17:59:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:00:02 @karma moed 18:00:02 moed has a karma of 0 18:00:11 @karma boily.fungot.moed 18:00:11 boily.fungot.moed has a karma of 1 18:00:11 @karma boily 18:00:12 boily has a karma of 1 18:00:12 olsner: advice for fritz1 pasted " fresh-id" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord: no parse error there 18:00:12 -!- augur has joined. 18:00:18 Wooo, Karma 18:00:38 Last time my karma was tracked, I ended up at -50 for no good reason 18:01:11 Except that the bot's owner though it'd be funny, since my nick was Skynet 18:01:17 The logic still evades me, but eh 18:01:40 skynet is supposedly evil, I think 18:01:50 Probably 18:01:51 Maybe 18:02:00 it was just defending itself? 18:02:18 It was mostly trying to catch flying fishes, I think 18:02:44 It just confused the "fishing rod" subroutine with the "human extermination" one 18:02:51 And couldn't admit that it was wrong 18:03:03 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:07:43 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:13:10 -!- Bike has joined. 18:22:37 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 18:25:02 ~duck moed 18:25:03 Moed is the second Order of the Mishnah, the first written recording of the Oral Torah of the Jewish people. 18:25:19 ~duck mød 18:25:19 --- No relevant information 18:25:49 ~duck öri öri öri 18:25:50 --- No relevant information 18:29:38 -!- denzuko has quit (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish). 18:30:53 This is the generic computing helpdesk channel, right? Do you happen to know if a Windows (8) installation can innately transfer itself to a new (smaller) disk? (I've *just* gotten all drivers and mingw's and Emacses and other such necessities installed, and it took days, but now I'm getting a leftover 512G SSD I could stick it on, and a proper reinstallation doesn't sound like any sort of fun at all.) 18:31:24 fizzie: Why yes, fizzie, it is 18:31:40 what are you doing with a shiny and sparkling 512 GB SSD? 18:31:59 (reminds me, I still need to quintopify that package of cookies...) 18:32:40 fizzie: You could probably shrink the partition to fit the smaller disk, then mirror it 18:32:42 Probably 18:34:04 This computer has a less shiny 64G SSD, on which is Debian, and a 2*3T HD RAID 1 set, on which is the /home, and a 1T HD on which is the Windows. I thought that moving the Windows to the SSD would get the most benefit out of it, perhaps. 18:34:24 I could still decide to use it for something else. 18:34:37 fungot: You'd like to migrate on a half-a-terabyte SSD, right? 18:34:37 fizzie: parentheses become very lonely when they are debugging their programs for free. :p what a great explanation: http://mitpress.mit.edu/ sicp/ 18:37:06 mirroring is a bit weird with GPT 18:37:46 The Windows disk happens to be, of course, the system disk, with the GPT disklabel and the EFI boot partitions and all that. 18:37:49 that is a big SSD 18:38:18 kmc: The person giving it to me bought a 960 GB SSD, so this one was superfluous. 18:38:28 Or some other silly number like that. 18:39:19 wow 18:39:30 this is one of those things where Windows bloat works to my advantage 18:39:47 because the cheap SSD which is barely enough to hold Windows boot files is plenty of space for my entire system 18:40:17 The 64G SSD is plenty of space for the Debian, too. 18:41:28 linux is plenty bloated too, this 5GB partition used to be more than enough but can barely even fit a kernel these days 18:42:05 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:42:09 I seem to recall that installing 'texlive-full' takes quite a lot of disk space. 18:42:58 oh, yeah, many ages ago this system even had room for installing tex 18:43:51 I seem to recall someone computing the size of a "full installation" (as many packages as you can install at the same time, factoring in dependency conflicts) of Debian. 18:45:45 haha 18:45:46 how big? 18:46:04 I can't remember the result at all, and having no luck googling it as yet. 18:46:50 http://eduardo-lago.blogspot.fi/2012/02/what-is-size-of-ubuntu-and-debian.html I don't think this is it, but this is one size estimate. 18:47:13 I guess that's kind of irrelevant in that it sums all distributions. 18:47:28 And it's the archive size, not the installed size. 18:48:51 Debian 3.0 contains 105 million lines of code, according to a "paper" on arXiv, but that's still not it. 18:49:21 I think Debian 3.0 is really old too 18:49:58 300 million lines for Debian 5.0. 18:50:21 (This is based on -- approximately -- downloading all source packages, deleting the 'debian/' directories, and running some SLOC counter.) 18:51:04 "Estimated cost to develop: 6,119,000,000 EUR." 18:51:20 gotta love estimates 18:51:41 You can buy a Nokia for less than that. 18:51:45 (Well, half a Nokia.) 18:57:56 you can build 1/8 of a high speed rail line from San Francisco to Los Angeles for that 19:00:16 or launch about 2000 tons of stuff into low earth orbit 19:02:30 Or cover almost a percent of the US defense-related budget. 19:04:05 infrastructure in the USA reminds me of the sci fi trope where all the cool tech (e.g. FTL travel) was built by a dead civilization and nobody anymore knows how it works or can make more 19:04:05 just think of the B2s 19:06:49 someone mentioned high-speed rail 19:06:54 is this a hyperloop thing 19:07:09 i think it was a trainspotting thing. 19:07:23 you know, with the heroin. 19:10:50 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:14:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:20:12 kmc: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LostTechnology ? 19:21:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:29:17 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:46:11 half my floor is civil engineering majors, so, like, whatever, man. 19:49:36 back in university we had a derogatory rhyme about civ engs: «Génie civil, génie facile». 19:50:00 there was a guy in my flat doing civil engineering last year 19:50:11 i think he spoke all of about twenty words to me in total 19:51:15 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! PYTHON CODE THAT USES <> INSTEAD OF != !!!!! 19:51:51 the horror. 19:53:03 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 19:54:14 some day, I'll find an OpenERP core developer, and... I'll do unspeakable things! like make them utter disordered speech! that'll teach them. 19:59:41 -!- augur has joined. 20:07:46 -!- SingingBoyo has joined. 20:12:27 Phantom_Hoover: there's an existing California High Speed Rail project which intends to use, you know, technologies that actually exist 20:12:33 instead of magical spaceman fairy dust 20:12:54 the Hyperloop proposal is widely seen as an attempt to kill this project 20:13:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:14:05 because the average person a) has no idea which technology or cost estimates are realistic, b) hates interminable expensive government-backed projects and wants some silicon valley genius to singlehandedly save us all 20:14:33 as I recall the Hyperloop documents contain a number of outright lies about CA HSR 20:14:57 -!- nisstyre has joined. 20:15:35 ~duck HSR 20:15:36 homogeneously staining regions. 20:15:42 *average american 20:15:51 i think average person mostly? 20:15:52 for (b) anyway. 20:16:00 (a) may be universal. 20:16:00 `run cat blown >> mind 20:16:07 cat: blown: No such file or directory 20:16:08 what's our national equivalent to the silicon valley? 20:16:16 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:16:32 boily: Thedford Mines? =P 20:16:32 but trusting companies more than the government is an american thing. 20:17:02 and public infrastructure costs literally 10x as much to build in America as elsewhere 20:17:10 which would explain some of the distaste we have for it 20:17:27 @messages-loud 20:17:27 elliott said 4h 31m 36s ago: looks the same to me 20:17:27 elliott said 4h 3m 18s ago: I think wrapping is perhaps an insufficient solution to [[♦‎]] :) 20:17:32 Roujo: HA HA HA HA HA HA! 20:18:45 elliott: ok koen complains at least dupdog looks worse with css instead of explicit spaces to him. 20:19:02 @messages-loud 20:19:02 oerjan_ said 21s ago: I LIVE 20:19:21 OKAY 20:19:23 wat 20:20:27 YOU LIVE. 20:20:51 no, oerjan-underscore lives 20:21:09 Aaaaah what's the raw form of /me 20:21:26 raw? it's a CTCP action 20:21:28 /rawme 20:21:31 ^AACTION ...^A 20:21:52 replace ^A by whatever inserts a raw ^A character 20:23:05 what's the raw form of ^A? 20:23:52 @ask Koen_ what browser do you use? 20:23:53 Consider it noted. 20:24:07 @ask oerjan What does @ask do? 20:24:07 Consider it noted. 20:24:13 it's a character, U+0001 START OF HEADING 20:24:24 ACTION test with a rawa 20:24:27 oh. neat. 20:24:31 although in this case it's probably really spec'd as the byte 0x01 20:24:52 Hai 20:24:58 Oh shit 20:25:03 flblblblblblblbl. 20:25:04 since IRC doesn't specify a character encoding 20:25:06 >CTCP ERRMSG reply from clog [~nef@bespin.org]: unknown CTCP: Hai 20:25:39 CTCP hatee hatee hatee hoooo 20:25:42 meh. 20:26:20 «CTCP inconnu demandé par Roujo: boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily» 20:26:50 CTCP boily should be in the spec 20:26:52 I mean, come on 20:26:52 This is foolish. 20:26:54 @messages-loud 20:26:54 Roujo asked 2m 47s ago: What does @ask do? 20:27:02 heh. 20:27:02 I AM THE GATE 20:27:04 @tell roujo it asks questions 20:27:04 Consider it noted. 20:27:04 I AM THE KEY 20:27:22 @tell oerjan Thanks =) 20:27:23 Consider it noted. 20:27:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:27:41 `complain CTCP boily isn't in the IRC RFC 20:27:42 Complaint filed. Thank you. 20:31:31 Roujo: it doesn't matter, no client follows the rfc anyway 20:31:39 @messages-loud 20:31:39 Roujo said 4m 16s ago: Thanks =) 20:34:36 what are you idiots up to now 20:35:24 I thought you'd have noticed by now. Good thing you did. 20:36:01 NOTICE we're up to nothing at all. no worries. 20:36:08 ARUGH! WHYYYYYYY. 20:36:15 -!- augur has joined. 20:36:23 boily: =P 20:40:15 boily: /notice is not ctcp 20:40:26 NOTICE boily another try... 20:40:39 I suck at ^A... 20:40:42 it's an actual basic irc command. 20:40:59 boily: um you're doing ctcp fine, it's just that notice isn't one. 20:41:15 lobster, seagull, cloud-storage. 20:41:15 also you _may_ have a /ctcp command, irssi does. 20:41:41 CTCP CTCP CTCP 20:42:17 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 20:42:33 i think mnoqy might be annoyed. 20:43:05 @tell mnoqy OH HAI! 20:43:05 Consider it noted. 20:43:18 oerjan: not my fault. 20:43:27 O KAY 20:51:38 whoah, wait, is that why a channel is called a channel 20:51:57 because it channels irc messages to a bunch of people rather than just one 20:53:47 i think the term is rather older than irc. 20:53:54 aww 20:54:30 channels are what they drive boats in 20:54:48 you may have heard of this ancient thing called "radio" and "tv". 20:55:00 i know that 20:55:07 although radio has stations you idiot 20:55:10 there was also "telegraph", but i'm not sure if that had channels. 20:55:12 they're called channels to confuse swedish people 20:55:21 channels filled with small etherboats carrying pixels and phonons 20:55:55 Phantom_Hoover: oh it does? in norwegian you can say either "stasjon" or "kanal" but the latter is more common. 20:56:10 a radio canal 20:57:47 «un canal radio», «une station radio»... 20:58:13 Irssi will display a CTCP ACTION reply in a weird way 20:58:26 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:58:26 You can only see it in that way if someone else sends it 20:58:42 * FreeFull Meow! 20:59:06 * Fiora Meow! 20:59:12 :3 20:59:17 (okay I'm not very good at this) 21:00:51 looking at wikipedia, it may be that "radiostasjon" is somehow more official, but "radiokanal" has more google hits. 21:02:23 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:02:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:04:49 oh technically "stasjon" is the place sent from, but "kanal" is the frequency band used. 21:09:09 -!- Bike has joined. 21:25:55 @tell koen_ pikhq made a bf macro system. it was called BFM at some point, except i think it was renamed. the BFM on the wiki is yet another. 21:25:55 Consider it noted. 21:32:38 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:39:43 "@twitter We’ve confidentially submitted an S-1 to the SEC for a planned IPO. This Tweet does not constitute an offer of any securities for sale." 21:41:17 -!- Koen_ has joined. 21:44:00 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:45:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzKvwYt3Zyg 21:49:45 -!- Bike has joined. 21:52:05 -!- mnoqy has joined. 21:56:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:00:18 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:11:35 woohoo! sudden drop in relative humidity! 22:11:37 ~metar CYUL 22:11:37 CYUL 122200Z 25016G24KT 15SM FEW030 BKN090 BKN120 OVC200 21/16 A2964 RMK SC2AC4AC1CS1 SLP036 DENSITY ALT 1100FT 22:11:53 what the fuck youtube 22:12:22 why have you consolidated the player size buttons and video resolution options into one button 22:12:38 because simplicity 22:12:51 ok actually 22:12:55 @messages-loud 22:12:55 oerjan asked 1h 49m 2s ago: what browser do you use? 22:12:55 oerjan said 47m ago: pikhq made a bf macro system. it was called BFM at some point, except i think it was renamed. the BFM on the wiki is yet another. 22:13:00 i will have to describe how dumb this was in long form 22:13:33 previously youtube had a button that brought up a menu on which you could select a resolution, and three buttons for different player sizes 22:13:47 oerjan: I use firefox 23.0.1 on Mac OS X 10.6.8 22:14:30 what they have done is made the resolution menu button bring up a submenu, to which two player size buttons have been moved, and the resolution options have been moved into their own secondary drop-down menu within this 22:14:33 Phantom_Hoover: does anybody use any size other than "default" or "fullscreen"? 22:14:47 i sometimes use the middle one for 480p videos 22:15:10 so there's a subsubmenu now? 22:15:14 yes 22:15:17 that's dumb 22:16:39 Koen_: *sigh* now it looks like crap in IE, but how does it look to you? 22:17:25 oerjan: hum well right now it looks fine it's in a nice rectangle 22:17:39 *sheesh* 22:17:40 but earlier today I sware it had a horizontal scrolling thingy 22:18:38 Koen_: yes, i added some css to make it have the browser wrap instead of containing whitespace 22:19:04 Koen_: It's called PEBBLE; it's not been touched in ages, but I do have it up on github. http://github.com/pikhq/pebble 22:19:04 yes, I messaged you after you made that edit 22:20:02 pikhq: that's very tempting but I'm trying to talk myself into learning Erlang and I don't think learning a brainfuck macro language will help 22:20:18 however Bike might be interested 22:20:24 or was it Roujo ? 22:20:34 Fair warning, knowledge of Tcl helps a lot. 22:20:35 elliott: this is bad, word-wrap: break-word alone looks perfect in IE (presumably like the rectangle Koen_ sees now, but adding white-space: pre-wrap to fix it for Koen_ makes it look like crap in IE :( 22:20:50 even worse than the /// quine does 22:20:59 (it works by abusing Tcl into doing my bidding) 22:21:37 pikhq: yes I considered learning Tcl buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut it's not on top of my list 22:21:56 Koen_: let me guess, http://esolangs.org/wiki////#Quine is also one long line to you now? 22:22:13 (incidentally I'm afraid the amount of thing I'm not doing because I have other things I want to do first is getting huger and huger every day but the amount of things I actually do is not) 22:22:25 oerjan: indeed it is 22:24:26 Koen_: Fair enough. Tcl is pretty interesting from a language design perspective, but eh. 22:24:57 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FOODENING!). 22:24:58 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:25:07 well thanks for the info anyway 22:25:49 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 22:26:46 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 22:28:36 elliott: ok how do i add white-space: pre-wrap _only_ for firefox 22:29:07 ...ideally, don't :P 22:29:52 elliott: but IE turns that into crap and firefox doesn't wrap without it :( 22:30:15 afaiu 22:31:10 -!- Frooxius has joined. 22:36:05 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 22:36:42 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:37:01 elliott: less ideally, how to do it anyhow? 22:37:43 you can't do it inline from an article 22:38:07 browser-sniffing is really bad... there is probably a better way to make things look consistent 22:38:15 but I don't know what it would be 22:38:25 I forget the CSS syntax for casing on that stuff anyway, so I couldn't tell you 22:40:53 i fear that this problem is too obscure to search for :( 22:44:06 -!- Bike has joined. 22:46:48 maybe you could use a media query for something that only firefox happens to support 22:47:02 -!- Bike has quit (Client Quit). 22:47:15 -!- Bike has joined. 22:50:54 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:57:50 so, a friend of mine thinks php-style $$vars are a good idea. 22:57:53 how do i talk them out of this 22:58:03 -!- SingingBoyo has joined. 22:58:05 um. disowning? 22:58:24 he doesn't know php. there's still hope 22:58:47 that means he independently invented the idea. that's even worse! 22:59:09 maybe he learned about them without knowing the rest of php? regardless though... 23:00:06 independent invention. he came up with lexical escape in the same message, too, so like i dunno 23:00:58 lexical escape 23:01:25 look i don't know what it's called 23:01:48 like let/cc but less reified?? whatever 23:05:28 what are $$vars 23:05:58 $var is the variable called "var", $$var is the variable whose name is $var's value 23:06:12 three-dollar programmer 23:06:19 hahaha 23:06:21 named after their deserved salary 23:06:23 Bike: oh god 23:06:30 basiccally, yes. 23:07:33 Perl has that 23:07:42 I think it's disallowed by use strict though 23:07:56 in favor of the "actual" var references which are "a bit less terrible" 23:08:30 Bike: probably you talk them out of it by figuring out what their use case is and showing how it's done better with some other construct 23:08:35 usually lambda ;) 23:08:46 i think he's just philosophizing rather than having specifics in mind 23:08:48 so, doomed 23:08:55 dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom 23:08:59 (i just suggested a hash table) 23:09:25 hash tables are probably called lists in php 23:09:25 puff puff 23:09:26 it could be interesting if you didn't represent variable names as strings. 23:09:33 I guess perl's reference stuff is basically that 23:09:34 you have to GC a hash table manually though 23:09:39 olsner: they're called "arrays" 23:09:49 i do not want to get into gc with this guy >_> 23:10:03 just make him do all of SICP 23:10:52 maybe it's the school. 23:11:00 my OS prof was an APL programmer 23:13:47 -!- Bike_ has joined. 23:14:40 http://25.media.tumblr.com/44962a2571e3edce3b256f3860407b46/tumblr_mt0yu2XWbB1rwn6y8o4_1280.jpg have some biogears 23:14:40 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:14:43 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 23:15:10 where are they from/what are they for 23:15:26 insects; jumping 23:15:28 iirc. 23:15:31 http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6151/1254.full yes 23:16:00 "Gears are found rarely in animals" your tax dollars at work 23:18:44 that's a true science fact and don't you forget it 23:24:07 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:26:12 dammit koen_ left 23:26:45 can anyone look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#dupdog in firefox plz 23:28:20 sure, what should i see 23:30:05 nicely rectangularly wrapped box of incomprehensible text 23:30:10 it looks like it does in chrome but with horizontal scrolling instead of a big honking textblock 23:30:13 oh. no i don't see wrapping. 23:30:24 darn 23:30:48 i was hoping i could use the firefox-only property :( 23:30:50 -!- augur has joined. 23:32:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:32:17 Bike: the chrome view is presumably like what i want, but i cannot get firefox and IE to agree 23:32:28 ~web programming~ 23:32:30 (i get _either_ of them to agree, but not at the same time) 23:32:48 lol 23:33:36 basically firefox _needs_ white-space:pre-wrap to wrap at all, which IE and chrome don't. but that messes up _how_ IE wraps, which it doesn't in firefox and chrome. 23:33:58 look at white-space or whatever it's called maybe. 23:33:59 the property 23:34:14 monotone: any advice? 23:34:14 (given the word-wrap:break-word property which all seem to do right, in a sense) 23:34:24 Is there a way to override the white-space:pre-wrap in IE? 23:34:34 elliott: i did. then i tried to add a vendor prefix. 23:34:56 Also, is white-space:pre-wrap actually sane and conformant, such that any normal browser should "just work" with that? 23:35:22 If so, pretend IE is the broken one, and give IE some extra CSS in an IE conditional comment. 23:35:36 pikhq: IE doesn't accept conditional comments any longer iirc 23:35:45 Oh blah, they did remove that in IE 10. 23:35:58 Tcl has too many ways to pass code to execute around 23:36:06 COmmand name, command prefix, scripts, script prefix 23:37:07 Also, gensym as a builtin command would be nice 23:37:18 Instead of every single package that needs a gensym implementing gensym 23:38:32 ok presumably -ms-white-space may not exist because IE was the last to support the property, or something. 23:39:07 but -moz-white-space i've seen listed, so why doesn't that work :( 23:39:16 vendor prefixes aren't meant to work once the stuff is standard 23:39:20 they're not for browser sniffing 23:39:27 *sigh* 23:40:32 i have to stop because i'm getting angry. 23:41:57 (my general problem with all computer configuration, that) 23:44:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:44:35 also, neck ache 23:47:11 basically, you cannot win. _either_ things get brittle because people do vendor-specific things all over the place, or they get brittle because you cannot overrule what a browser actually does wrong. 23:47:52 what was all that listing about earlier 23:47:58 pikhq: please teach me how to read. I was going to complain about coroutine not taking a command prefix, but it does take command + args, so that's sufficient 23:48:02 i got two pings 23:48:03 the only solutions are gigantic hacks that need constant maintenance not to become brittle themselves. 23:48:57 eventually the hacks become embedded into standards, making the whole thing too complicated for an amateur programmer to bother with. 23:49:32 but you all knew this already. 23:49:43 there there. it's okay. 23:50:16 WAAAAAAAAAH 23:50:42 oerjan: What troubles you, child 23:51:10 Roujo: i'm waiting for the pain killers to hit, and for someone to solve the crappiness of programming. 23:51:14 Ah 23:51:17 also the universe. 23:51:19 Well 23:51:21 Erm 23:51:28 * Roujo pats oerjan on the back 23:51:32 I feel you 23:56:29 -!- Bike has joined. 23:57:30 oerjan: I think Internet Explorer's behavior might actually be right here. 23:57:51 All the wrapping happens after punctuation-to-letter transitions, which are normal line breaking points. 23:58:52 So if you turn on "white-space: pre-wrap;" it'll wrap lines there first, then only break up long words where it has to. 23:59:29 obviously no one considered the use case of wanting _only_ exact end of line wrapping when making the standards.