←2013-09-08 2013-09-09 2013-09-10→ ↑2013 ↑all
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00:22:49 <oerjan> cryptography fans might find this interesting http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1517
00:24:17 <oerjan> "What was long a plausible conjecture—that the NSA covertly influences cryptographic standards to give itself backdoors, and that otherwise-inexplicable vulnerabilities in deployed cryptosystems are sometimes there because the NSA wanted them there—now looks close to an established fact."
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00:26:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, ugh why does he have to give probabilities like that
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00:27:08 <Phantom_Hoover> who do you think you're fooling, you're clearly just using 99% as a convenient rhetorical default
00:27:11 <oerjan> I DON'T KNOW
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00:35:03 <Koen_> I'm about to say something very stupid
00:35:41 <Koen_> I had to implement multiplication for numbers-as-strings-of-digits quite recently and I've read a few articles about multiplications algorithms
00:36:10 <Koen_> and it may have been because I was missing a lot of sleep but at several points I was under the impression that their explanations about complexity were wrong
00:36:27 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to nisstyre.
00:36:42 <Koen_> for instance they were calculating the complexity in function of the number of digits of a number n
00:37:02 <Koen_> and sometimes ended with a conclusion "therefore this algorithm is O(n^3)"
00:37:23 <oerjan> well that's a stupid typo, really.
00:37:36 <Koen_> I figured as much but it happened several times
00:37:40 <Koen_> and just now I read this:
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00:39:06 <Koen_> okay wait a minute my copy pasting has magically replaced spaces with newlines
00:39:21 <Bike> i commend you for catching it before you actually pasted.
00:40:26 <Koen_> Factoring is hard. Despite centuries of effort by some of the world's smartest mathematicians and computer scientists, the fastest methods for factoring a number N take time exponential in the number of bits of N.
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00:40:42 <Koen_> so the important part is "exponential in the number of bits"
00:41:07 <oerjan> yes.
00:41:17 <Koen_> am I missing something or is he saying it's exponential in a logarithm, which is called being linear in my town?
00:42:03 <Koen_> ohhhh or is that because the logarithm is not the same base as the exponential
00:42:17 <Bike> i don't think it's bad to say "exponential in the number of bits" even if that does mean linear
00:42:17 <Fiora> it's exponential with respect to the size of the input, which is measured in bits, I think
00:42:22 <Fiora> like "100 digit input" vs "200 digit input"
00:42:28 <oerjan> you're missing something: the number of bits of the input is the standard x which you measure complexity as a function of.
00:42:28 <Fiora> the 200 digit input is twice the size, not 10^100 the size
00:42:44 <Bike> Koen_: different bases would only cause a constant multiplicative factor, which is nothing anybody cares about in complexity :p
00:43:01 <Koen_> yeah hum
00:43:07 <Koen_> so the first thing was only a typo?
00:43:13 <Bike> which first thing
00:43:17 <oerjan> which fir..
00:43:23 <Bike> you're welcome oerjan
00:43:30 <shachaf> `welcome oerjan
00:43:32 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:43:36 <oerjan> `thanks shachaf
00:43:37 <HackEgo> Thanks, shachaf. Thachaf.
00:43:47 <Koen_> Koen_: for instance they were calculating the complexity in function of the number of digits of a number n
00:43:48 <Koen_> [02:37] Koen_: and sometimes ended with a conclusion "therefore this algorithm is O(n^3)"
00:43:51 <Koen_> that first thing
00:44:16 <Bike> what's wrong with that?
00:44:23 <Bike> schoolboy multiplication is n³ i think
00:44:31 <oerjan> Koen_: the typo is using the same variable n for both the number and what you're measuring complexity as a function of (which should be the _size_ of the number, not the number.)
00:44:39 <Koen_> yes
00:44:43 <Bike> oh
00:44:45 <oerjan> Bike: it's wrong because it not the same n in the two lines
00:44:48 <Bike> yeah that'd be some kind of typo
00:44:50 <oerjan> *it's
00:44:55 <Koen_> okay so everything is working right in the world and I was just imagining things
00:45:01 <Koen_> thank you
00:45:04 <oerjan> ^celebrate
00:45:04 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
00:45:05 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
00:45:05 <myndzi> |\ c.c >\ /'\| | |\ c.c >\ | /^\|/| c.c >\
00:45:05 <myndzi> /´¯|_) /´\
00:45:06 <myndzi> (_| (_| |_)
00:46:21 <shachaf> since when does celebrate contain c.c
00:46:22 <myndzi> c.c.c
00:46:22 <myndzi> c.c
00:46:42 <Bike> don't deny the seraphim their celebration!
00:47:37 <shachaf> > text . unwords . replicate 20 $ " c.c "
00:47:37 <myndzi> c.c.c
00:47:38 <myndzi> c.c
00:47:38 <oerjan> shachaf: i updated it to include new myndzi features
00:47:38 <lambdabot> c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c c....
00:47:44 <shachaf> > text . unwords . replicate 5 $ " c.c "
00:47:44 <myndzi> c.c.c
00:47:45 <myndzi> c.c
00:47:45 <lambdabot> c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c
00:47:45 <myndzi> c.c.c c.c.c c.c.c c.c.c c.c.c
00:47:45 <myndzi> c.c c.c c.c c.c c.c
00:48:03 <shachaf> myndzi: ꙮ.ꙮ
00:48:14 <shachaf> ꙮ.ꙮ
00:48:17 <shachaf> ꙮ.ꙮ.ꙮ
00:48:18 <shachaf> ꙮ.ꙮ
00:48:25 <shachaf> useless bot
00:48:28 <shachaf> have to do everything myself
00:48:37 <shachaf> what did i invent computers for anyway
00:49:05 <oerjan> you didn't, do you think you're al gore or something?
00:49:32 <oerjan> `quote pota
00:49:34 <HackEgo> No output.
00:49:39 <oerjan> shocking.
00:49:48 <shachaf> no, i'm the giant on whose shoulders al gore stoode
00:49:50 <shachaf> s/.$//
00:49:56 <oerjan> `? potato
00:49:59 <HackEgo> potato? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:49:59 <myndzi> |
00:50:00 <myndzi> º¯`\o
00:50:12 <oerjan> `? potatoe
00:50:14 <HackEgo> potatoe? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:50:23 <myndzi> |
00:50:24 <myndzi> o/`¯º
00:51:10 <Gracenotes_> myndzi is so popular today
00:52:09 <Gracenotes_> also, do you like the underscore? it's the new style
00:52:12 <shachaf> c.c
00:52:13 <myndzi> c.c.c
00:52:13 <myndzi> c.c
00:52:20 <Bike> why not grace_notes
00:52:21 <shachaf> c·c·c
00:52:26 <shachaf> c°c
00:52:28 <shachaf> sigh
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00:52:48 <shachaf> Bike: plz fix the weather thx
00:52:55 <Gracenotes_> got identified, back
00:53:03 <Bike> the weather's fine
00:53:06 <Gracenotes_> hope I didn't miss anything
00:53:07 <Bike> Gracenotes_: why not grace_notes
00:53:26 <shachaf> @google palo alto weather
00:53:27 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
00:53:31 <Gracenotes_> someone is probably registering it as we speak
00:53:36 <shachaf> 29° right now :'(
00:53:36 <Bike> no weather found
00:53:40 <Gracenotes_> it's an arms race
00:53:48 <Gracenotes_> shachaf: it's going to be a high of 90F pretty much all week
00:53:56 <shachaf> @google 90f in c
00:53:57 <lambdabot> 32.2222222 degrees Celsius
00:53:57 <lambdabot> http://www.myscienceproject.org/beer.html
00:53:57 <lambdabot> Title: How to Keep Beer Cold
00:53:59 <shachaf> @google 90f in real degrees
00:54:00 <Gracenotes_> to use regional measurements
00:54:00 <lambdabot> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070712040823AABeQ2f
00:54:00 <lambdabot> Title: What is 90 degrees fahrenheit in celcius? - Yahoo! Answers
00:54:17 <shachaf> my ol' buddy Yahoo! Answers knows what's up
00:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> `sanetemp 90
00:54:46 <Bike> something like 25?
00:54:47 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sanetemp: not found
00:54:53 <Phantom_Hoover> !sanetemp 90
00:54:56 <EgoBot> 32.2
00:55:00 <Bike> wow go me.
00:55:04 <Gracenotes_> wouldn't that be google that knows what's up
00:55:45 <shachaf> p. sure i'm not allowed to talk about that in public, Gracenotes_
00:56:52 <shachaf> imo http://www.theonion.com/articles/ford-develops-new-suv-that-runs-purely-on-gasoline,33568/
00:57:07 <Gracenotes_> @google 30C in real degrees
00:57:09 <lambdabot> http://calculator-converter.com/converter_c_to_f_celsius_to_fahrenheit_calculator.php
00:57:09 <lambdabot> Title: C to F Convert Celsius to Fahrenheit and Fahrenheit to Celsius degrees Conver...
00:57:30 <shachaf> `units
00:57:36 <Gracenotes_> just gasoline? doesn't even need oxygen?
00:57:55 <Gracenotes_> p. extraordinary
00:57:58 <Bike> it's amazing in that way
00:58:01 <HackEgo> 2527 units, 72 prefixes, 56 nonlinear units \ \ You have:
00:58:57 <shachaf> `run units '90 degF' degC
00:58:59 <HackEgo> ​* 50 \ / 0.02
00:59:06 <shachaf> hm
01:00:17 <Gracenotes_> @google 300 kelvin in real degrees
01:00:18 <lambdabot> http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/temperature/kelvin-to-fahrenheit.htm
01:00:18 <lambdabot> Title: Kelvin to Fahrenheit (�F) degrees converter
01:00:32 <Bike> just skip to reamur
01:00:35 <Gracenotes_> ah, well, enough of this
01:05:48 <Gracenotes_> it was pretty bad today, though
01:06:01 <Gracenotes_> my chocolate that was just sitting on my desk, not in the sun, melted
01:06:20 <shachaf> silly chocolate
01:06:23 <Gracenotes_> my hands got very chocolatey as I was figuring it out
01:06:24 <shachaf> the desk isn't for sitting
01:06:25 <shachaf> try the chair
01:06:26 <Gracenotes_> ate them anyway
01:08:13 <Gracenotes_> I should get a fan
01:08:53 <shachaf> aren't we all fans of Gracenotes_
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01:10:50 <kmc> apparently the fundamental way you talk to the GPIO pins on the Raspberry Pi is that you mmap() /dev/mem and just start poking shit
01:11:05 <kmc> as far as continuing the educational legacy of 80s microcomputers, I approve
01:12:51 <copumpkin> for a while, you could tell iOS to map arbitrary regions of memory to a device
01:12:56 <copumpkin> that's how we did a lot of sneaky stuff
01:13:07 <Bike> /dev/fucktheworld
01:13:15 <kmc> nice
01:13:47 <copumpkin> it was actually how we circumvented their hardware encryption, which stumped us for months
01:14:30 <copumpkin> but anyway, it wasn't the standard endorsed way to do things in iOS, just a feature apple forgot to remove in their kernel builds for a while, until they realized what we were doing with it
01:15:11 <Gracenotes_> I mean, this is more-or-less what PCI and PCIe is, yeah
01:15:21 <Gracenotes_> peeking and poking
01:15:29 * copumpkin pokes Gracenotes_
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01:15:49 * Gracenotes_ giggles
01:16:06 <Gracenotes_> copumpkin: say, are you going to ICFP, by any chance?
01:16:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: why don't you come poke him face to face!!
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01:16:15 <copumpkin> Gracenotes_: yup
01:16:24 * shachaf isn't. :-(
01:16:27 <Gracenotes_> woo. I plan on attending the Haskell bits.
01:16:29 <copumpkin> I need to register still
01:16:41 <copumpkin> shachaf: :(
01:16:51 <copumpkin> Gracenotes_: how about the main event? that's what I'll be at
01:16:53 <shachaf> copumpkin: Maybe next year!
01:17:02 <shachaf> Or maybe not.
01:17:06 <copumpkin> won't it be somewhere exotic next year?
01:17:08 <shachaf> You'd better come visit to be on the safe side.
01:17:10 <copumpkin> it's almost never in the US!
01:17:14 <shachaf> Oh, hmm, that's true.
01:17:23 <Gracenotes_> copumpkin: I might sneak in the first day for the main event
01:17:23 <shachaf> Outside the US is a lot more trouble.
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01:18:29 <copumpkin> yup
01:18:53 <Gracenotes_> the first day is dependent types, both keynote and session, as well as things like data parallelism and fun/pearls.
01:19:00 <Gracenotes_> then I have a flight in the evening
01:19:11 <Gracenotes_> before that, there are 3 days of Haskell things
01:20:01 <Gracenotes_> so then I will be missing SPJ's talk about the work he's done with Computing at School, but hopefully that will be recorded
01:20:27 <Gracenotes_> hm, this underscore is too heavy
01:20:30 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
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01:27:19 <copumpkin> yeah it is
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01:57:25 <constant> Sgeo: around?
01:57:44 <Sgeo> Hi
01:58:39 <Sgeo> What's up?
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02:02:35 <Sgeo> constant?
02:03:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: /whois is thataway
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02:04:39 <Sgeo> What am I missing here?
02:05:19 <oerjan> the account
02:05:45 <oerjan> as well as the cloak.
02:07:08 <Sgeo> So constant is variable is a FreeBSD person. Why does that warrant pinging me?
02:07:55 <Sgeo> Also may be using, or pretending to be using, root
02:08:12 <Sgeo> I still don't see how I got caught up in this
02:08:40 <oerjan> well i don't know about that, but e _is_ a regular.
02:09:11 <shachaf> oerjan: I think Sgeo is asking why you mentioned /whois.
02:09:36 <Sgeo> I didn't mean to accidently imply that e isn't a regular, I just want to know why e pinged me
02:09:42 <oerjan> ok, i interpreted "constant?" as Sgeo not knowing who e was.
02:09:51 <shachaf> Imagine: <oerjan> shachaf: around? <shachaf> Hi <shachaf> What's up? [...] <shachaf> oerjan?
02:10:17 <oerjan> UNIMAGINABLE
02:11:18 <oerjan> i note constant hasn't spoken since the line, maybe e's lost connection somewhere.
02:12:19 <constant> now I'm back
02:12:21 <constant> Sgeo: do you know Ada ?
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02:12:51 <Sgeo> I know one thing about Ada, which I mentioned last time Ada was mentioned: a and b or c is invalid, you need parentheses
02:13:11 <constant> Sgeo: ah, okay
02:13:35 <constant> does anyone else know Ada?
02:13:47 <Sgeo> There may be an Ada IRC channel
02:13:52 <shachaf> Sgeo: There is.
02:13:54 <shachaf> You were there.
02:14:51 <constant> I wasn't expecting that
02:14:53 <constant> thanks
02:15:05 <Sgeo> yw
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02:32:35 <oerjan> elliott: what's that thing you do when you delete spam that makes it not show up in recent changes any longer :(
02:32:49 <oerjan> apparently clicking rollback wasn't it.
02:34:36 <oerjan> that elliott doesn't look online
02:34:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
02:34:47 <Gracenotes> "Hide anonymous useres"
02:35:11 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i'm talking about hiding it from _others_ unless they show bots.
02:35:16 <Fiora> elliott's asleep fyi
02:35:21 <oerjan> iirc
02:36:38 -!- shachaf has left.
02:37:19 <Gracenotes> oerjan: to change user statuses, there is Special:UserRights
02:38:38 <zzo38> What are your opinions of Ellsberg paradox?
02:38:50 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i do not think we are talking about the same feature.
02:39:41 <oerjan> ais523 used to do this thing whenever there was major spamming going on.
02:41:41 <Gracenotes> anyway, you can try marking that user as a bot, if that is what you wanted
02:41:42 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i don't have access to Special:UserRights anyway, and i'm pretty sure ais523 doesn't have more rights than me.
02:41:49 <Gracenotes> hm
02:42:05 <oerjan> oh maybe that's what he did.
02:42:33 <Gracenotes> he does have extra rights: check users (accept IP info), bureaucrat
02:43:17 <Gracenotes> with the default configuration, bureaucrats are able to change rights such as admin status. In other configs, admins can change statuses like the ability to rollback.
02:43:18 <oerjan> did he have it back then?
02:43:46 -!- douglass has joined.
02:45:15 <Gracenotes> started February 18, 2012.
02:45:45 <zzo38> My own conclusion (hopefully I did it correctly) is that if no probability can be assigned to the number of black and yellow balls (and that it isn't any kind of deception or any other psychological factors of the people who put the balls in there), then either AD or BC should be selected.
02:46:00 <oerjan> i think he got it when elliott took over the wiki, but what i'm talking about he did before that, when spam was getting out of hand
02:47:10 <zzo38> I may have made a mistake though.
02:47:21 <Gracenotes> zzo38: AD makes sense to me.
02:48:44 <Gracenotes> oerjan: he's deleted over 4000 spam pages
02:49:06 <oerjan> deletion is not what i'm talking about here
02:49:49 <oerjan> i'm talking about reverting spam edits to an already existing page, without it showing up in the default recent changes.
02:49:50 <zzo38> Gracenotes: What is your reasoning?
02:50:36 <Gracenotes> well, they are the ones with definite probabilities
02:50:52 <Gracenotes> I suppose I'd be thinking about it adversarially
02:51:11 <zzo38> Yes, but that isn't a full reasoning.
02:52:18 <Gracenotes> Between A and B, A has probability 33%, B as 0-66%. rounding a bit.
02:52:27 <Gracenotes> C has 33-100%. D has 66%.
02:55:01 <Gracenotes> My strategy is maximizing the minimum. There's just not enough information to make an optimality argument.
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02:56:46 <Gracenotes> In most real world situations involving missing information, there are no numbers, either for the probabilities or the amount of uncertainty.
02:57:14 <zzo38> I am also maximizing the minimum.
02:59:35 <Gracenotes> Well, that is my view. What complications are introduced by that?
03:06:13 <zzo38> I am maximizing the minimum expected gain according to probabilities.
03:06:54 <zzo38> The thing you have failed to consider is that you should consider both gambles together using whatever same amount of black and yellow balls there are; the amount is the same for both gambles.
03:09:09 <Gracenotes> oh, both gambles occur together? I see.
03:09:11 <Gracenotes> oops
03:10:10 <zzo38> I did make these assumptions, that the number of the balls is the same each time, and that the ball picked is replaced before picking again, as well as that you must select both gambles before the first ball is picked.
03:10:45 <Gracenotes> yes, so 0%-66% scales with 100%-33% respectively.
03:11:37 <zzo38> What I have not yet considered is if you want to instead maximize the probability of winning at least $100.
03:12:00 <Gracenotes> "the amount is the same for both gambles" is a pretty big assumption
03:12:20 <Gracenotes> not big as in unreasonable, but more important, I expect
03:12:41 <Gracenotes> for the analysis
03:18:20 <zzo38> The Wikipedia article also makes that assumption (although I make these assumptions even regardless of Wikipedia).
03:21:03 <Gracenotes> I would probably plot the probabilities of winning $0, $100, and $200 for all four combinations as blacks vary from 0 to 60
03:22:05 <Gracenotes> if I were less lazy.
03:22:13 <zzo38> Yes, I would do the same
03:22:23 <zzo38> (if I were less lazy)
03:23:32 <Gracenotes> then make my decision based on either assuming a uniform distribution or an adversarial distribution (I would probably go for the latter)
03:24:32 <zzo38> What is an "adversarial distribution"?
03:38:34 <Gracenotes> the number of black balls an adversary would put when they know your strategy and are trying to minimize your gains.
03:39:52 <Gracenotes> distribution refers to the distribution of black/yellow balls
03:42:03 <zzo38> Yes, OK.
03:42:24 <zzo38> And yes it is also what I was considering, but not because there actually is such an adversary; it is because such thing is unknown.
03:42:30 <Gracenotes> You can do fun things like have a strategy like 'flip a fair coin to decide between AD and BC', in which case your adversary's calculation would get more complicated, but still possible.
03:42:55 <Gracenotes> In crypto, people have fun strategies like 'flip 256 random coins'
03:43:09 <zzo38> Yes, things like that too, I suppose, can be.
03:44:14 <Gracenotes> hm. I'm off to get dinner. sadly, I might buy it from walgreens, but it'll be okay.
03:49:17 <kmc> what will it be
03:51:58 <zzo38> In one book I read about Newcomb's paradox, my own strategy as soon as I read it was toss a coin. However, later in a book by Gardner, they said it is empty if you select at random.
04:08:47 <quintopia> zzo38: so, how about now? one-box or two-box?
04:11:53 <zzo38> quintopia: It depends. "The Predictor can be presented as a psychic, as a superintelligent alien, as a deity, as a brain-scanning computer, etc." So it depends on these things and on other details not specified here.
04:12:02 <zzo38> As well as about how much money I need.
04:12:26 <zzo38> And on things that happen between the prediction and my actual selection.
04:12:32 <zzo38> There are too many factors to consider.
04:14:09 <quintopia> zzo38: assume that you want to maximize your profit and that the predictor has shown 99% accuracy in all demonstrations to date
04:15:41 <zzo38> OK, but still, what kind of predictor? Still, I wouldn't really know until I actually got the chance to pick, although I can try to guess.
04:19:42 <zzo38> I would also want to know why I am being given these choices (even if they lie to me when telling the reason, it doesn't matter)
04:19:56 <quintopia> zzo38: guess what you would pick if all you knew was what i just told you. you don't know if the predictor is psychic or just very well-informed, but you do know he is right 99% so far.
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04:20:40 <quintopia> and you are being given these choices as an alternative to humanity being destroyed
04:20:48 <quintopia> if you don't pick, we all must die
04:21:02 <zzo38> In that case, I don't care.
04:21:30 <quintopia> why not?
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04:22:45 <zzo38> I find it difficult to answer, but I don't care, and probably won't pick any (although other people can pick one if they want to)
04:23:12 -!- constant has changed nick to trout.
04:26:20 <zzo38> Humanity is only a very minor part of the universe, and I am even a more minor thing in the universe.
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04:28:22 <zzo38> Also, it isn't necessarily a bad thing (although not being destroyed is also not necessarily a bad thing)
04:28:55 <zzo38> So in other words, there still isn't enough information!!!
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04:36:36 <zzo38> Do you know of some other paradoxes (whether or not they are mentioned in Wikipedia)?
04:39:53 <quintopia> newcomb isn't really a paradox, just a problem
04:40:06 <quintopia> but there's bell's paradox
04:40:09 <quintopia> and
04:43:14 <quintopia> http://sprachlogik.blogspot.com/2011/02/liar-paradox-of-material-implication.html
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04:45:55 <Bike> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1371 the engineer paradox, not mentioned in wikipedia to my knowledge
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04:47:45 <Bike> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2148 also "the paradox of the court" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_the_Court
04:47:51 <Gracenotes> going back, I do see that the interesting bit about the Ellsberg paradox is that some ways of knowing what you don't know help you more than others.
04:49:17 <Gracenotes> an interesting bit
04:50:36 <quintopia> zzo38: do you know the curry paradox?
04:51:27 <Gracenotes> how it's both sweet and savory?
04:53:52 <zzo38> quintopia: I can see now, I saw it before but forgot
04:54:41 <quintopia> if this sentence is true, then you'll forget again.
04:55:15 <zzo38> I can see that it doesn't work due to nontermination, I think
05:02:13 <kmc> http://fuckyeahx11.tumblr.com/
05:03:14 <Bike> jesus christ
05:03:35 <Bike> how many levels of irony are involved here help
05:05:12 <kmc> ε₀
05:05:23 <Gracenotes> tumblr wants me to "Never miss a post!"
05:05:30 <kmc> or am i bad for answering a "how many" question with an ordinal
05:05:47 <Bike> no ur good
05:06:09 <Bike> what's epsilon zero again? the fixed point of x -> \omega ^ x?
05:07:11 <Bike> oh wow i actually got that mostly right.
05:09:14 <Bike> > fix ((sqrt 2) ^)
05:09:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
05:09:15 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M777596952.sho...
05:09:40 <Bike> is it saying it can't show undefined
05:10:38 <Fiora> kmc: is it intentional that the background, like, flashes when you scroll?
05:11:17 <Bike> ...lol, it does.
05:11:21 <Gracenotes> not enough xeyes tbh
05:12:21 <Gracenotes> hm, especially not here. http://fuckyeahx11.tumblr.com/image/2385309201
05:13:13 <Bike> the superior computer program.
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05:19:02 <Gracenotes> :t sqrt
05:19:03 <lambdabot> Floating a => a -> a
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05:19:07 <Gracenotes> :t (^)
05:19:08 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
05:19:40 <Bike> i can't be bothered to remember all of haskell's numeric crap
05:19:43 <Gracenotes> don't you know, you can't be Floating and Integral at the same time. it's totally impossible
05:19:43 <Bike> :t (**)
05:19:44 <lambdabot> Floating a => a -> a -> a
05:19:47 <Bike> :t (^^)
05:19:48 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
05:19:59 <Bike> also it won't work anyway obviously.
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05:20:05 <Bike> > fix ((sqrt 2) **)
05:20:12 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
05:20:14 <Bike> even though 2 is a better answer!! it's terrible
05:20:30 <Gracenotes> well, it finds the least fixpoint of definedness.
05:20:42 <Gracenotes> thar you go. job done. raises for all.
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05:21:15 <Bike> yeah, yeah.
05:21:40 <Bike> i just want the fun answer, man. :(
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05:25:17 <Gracenotes> risky business being around engineers tho
05:25:26 <Bike> what?
05:26:10 <Gracenotes> no levity is safe
05:27:08 <Bike> oh no
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05:31:23 <zzo38> When people are trying to solve my Pokemon card puzzles I find that often people try many solutions that don't work (often believing they do work; sometimes the mistake is due to ignoring some important information).
05:31:45 <Gracenotes> available online?
05:32:11 <zzo38> Yes they are available online
05:32:37 <Gracenotes> would you be able to link them?
05:33:17 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.* Replace the * with a number 1 to 5 (more might be added later)
05:33:33 <zzo38> For a glossary, see the file "terminology.txt" in the same directory.
05:33:59 <zzo38> (They are all plain text; no HTML or Unicode is used)
05:35:51 <zzo38> Do you like this?
05:41:01 <Gracenotes> It has been a while since I've played, this or another CCG, so I don't have enough intuition for it, but I do like the idea of it. Do people make these for e.g. Magic? (I mean, that's Turing complete via tokens.)
05:41:18 <Gracenotes> I can see how some of the listed mechanics can interact.
05:41:46 <zzo38> Yes people do make them for Magic much more, or at least they used to; I don't know how common it is more recently.
05:42:05 <Gracenotes> (and 'white to checkmate' or 'black to live' is of course the older variant)
05:44:24 <zzo38> Older variant of what? Chess?
05:45:03 <Gracenotes> Chess, Go, etc.
05:45:57 <Gracenotes> Puzzles using game mechanics. (One video game I like, DROD, is pretty much exclusively composed of this.)
05:50:32 <zzo38> There is also tsume shogi and other puzzles involving game mechanics I suppose too
05:53:30 <zzo38> And then there can be puzzle games somewhat based on other games
05:54:00 <zzo38> Gracenotes: Do you know anything about the rules of Pokemon card? If you have some questions, I can answer them.
05:54:08 <zzo38> (The glossary doesn't contain the rules for the game.)
05:56:16 <Gracenotes> I think when I was 10 -.-
05:56:52 <Gracenotes> at least partly, as every time I look at them they are deeper than I remember. probably more 'collectible' than 'card game', at the time.
05:58:33 <zzo38> Can you be specific?
06:01:36 <Gracenotes> I don't think I have any specific recollections, nor questions. I might not try my hand at solving your puzzles, but I quite like the format of them, which I had no clue about previously.
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06:03:31 <zzo38> I like these format too; is there anything specific you like about these formats, though, and other comments of it?
06:03:31 <zzo38> Solutions are actually provided if you change "puzzle" to "solution", although best is to try to figure it out by yourself
06:03:31 <zzo38> But if you don't want to try to solve them and just want an example of a solution you could look at one of them to see how the game works kind of
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06:07:37 <Gracenotes> hm, looking at the solution of one of them, it seems as though it does require a bit of domain-specific knowledge.
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06:08:30 <Gracenotes> I don't see all of the nice constraints falling into the place, where it magically happens that there's only one solution
06:08:58 <zzo38> Which solution are you viewing?
06:09:41 <Gracenotes> well, just of #1
06:12:25 <zzo38> Well, some of the steps may be commutative, in this and other solutions.
06:12:54 <zzo38> For example, step 1 and 2 can be swapped.
06:13:10 <zzo38> Other than these kind of things, I believe the solutions to be unique.
06:16:21 <zzo38> Also, except in the first two puzzles, the opponent gets a turn too.
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06:18:02 <zzo38> The fifth puzzle is even more complicated than the others.
06:20:19 <Gracenotes> when people find bad solutions, is it because they misunderstand mechanics, or don't think of all ways opponent could counter, or stuff like that?
06:20:35 <zzo38> If you are sure you won't try it later, view that puzzle too and view that solution too (although perhaps first read the card data mentioned)
06:20:57 <zzo38> Gracenotes: Sometimes those are the reasons. Other times it is because they fail to read the entire file.
06:22:10 <zzo38> Do you think the glossary is good though, even only considering what you know about it? (Some of these things come from chess)
06:22:41 <zzo38> If you have any puzzles for Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering or some other game, I would still like to see it please!
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06:28:38 <Gracenotes> glossary is a pleasant game, largely because of metagame exposition :)
06:29:28 <Gracenotes> s/game/read/, dunno where that came from. also, almost wrote game from.
06:31:07 <zzo38> Do you have any opinions on individual entries, suggestions for improvement, or new entries which could be added?
06:34:40 <Fiora> `slist
06:34:44 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:35:06 <Gracenotes> hm, not that I can think of. also, I do like the ASCII approximation of water symbol
06:35:18 <Gracenotes> and others too
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06:53:52 <zzo38> Some people like them; some other people do not like them. I do like these symbols, which is why I used them.
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07:49:16 <zzo38> Sometimes I see use of comments in an example computer program code which are placeholder for the other things that belong in its place. I think a better way would be use a chunk inclusion syntax of WEB, so that you can know it is not a comment.
07:49:52 <zzo38> (Furthermore, using the chunk inclusion syntax, it will actually compile and work properly, too.)
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12:16:27 <boily> good vegetarian morning!
12:17:41 <boily> Vorpal: ah, first time I've heard of that. I'd say go for unstable, fsdvo unstable.
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12:33:42 <quintopia> helloily!
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12:35:42 <boily> quinthello!
12:36:30 <quintopia> it's not vegetarian morning you know
12:36:33 <quintopia> turkey bacon
12:36:54 <boily> it isn't vegetarian morning indeed, but yesterday night was.
12:37:09 <boily> (and I guess nutella toasts are vegetarian, no? at least the OJ was.)
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12:59:00 <boily> `pastewisdom
12:59:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
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12:59:36 <quintopia> do you like cookies
13:00:16 <Koen_> they're not my favourite type of biscuit but they're fine
13:00:42 <boily> quintopia: http://www.commercialbakeries.com/images/CookieOptions/CommericalCookiesProductsThumbBig.jpg
13:01:12 <quintopia> yes those
13:01:24 <quintopia> this subway didn't give me a receipt
13:01:30 <quintopia> so i can't take the survey
13:01:37 <quintopia> and get a free cookie
13:02:11 <boily> 'tis a sad world where cookies aren't free to be freed.
13:03:04 <quintopia> i've never actually seen leaf shaped cookies before
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13:03:17 <quintopia> seem like they'd be hard to make at home
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13:05:10 <boily> quintopia: I think you can get cookie cutters for that, but you can get them in any respectable Canadian grocery.
13:05:24 <boily> I know I shouldn't, but it's very tempting...
13:05:28 <boily> `relcome Frooxius
13:05:32 <HackEgo> Frooxius: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:05:49 <quintopia> you're at the wrong end of canadia
13:07:46 <boily> bah. humbug. it may be the wrong end, but it's a pretty wrong end.
13:09:07 <quintopia> this area is pretty
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13:11:51 <boily> quintopia: are you still in Newton?
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13:16:13 <boily> hellorick. hellomp. helloqy.
13:18:53 <mnoqy> hello
13:40:35 <boily> quintopia: would you like a box of «biscuits feuille d'érable»?
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13:50:40 <boily> `relcome ter2
13:50:41 <HackEgo> ter2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:05:28 <quintopia> boily: i am nowhere near newton
14:05:41 <quintopia> boily: i will gladly eat cookies
14:06:57 <boily> quintopia: where is the approximate nowhere where you are at? I'll need that relevant info to send you the cookies.
14:10:00 <quintopia> boily: are you going to post them to me?
14:15:22 <boily> quintopia: I'd prefer to send them by submarine, but alas it is not practical in this reality-set. therefore, I'll have to do with Postes Canada and USPS.
14:16:30 <quintopia> send them to David Rutter, Gen. Delivery, Gorham, NH 03581. if they arrive in a week or less, i will get them.
14:17:36 <boily> you seem to be the travelling guy... oh well. let's do hope the postal services will be fast enough.
14:22:06 <boily> (I like our bilingual site... «Veuillez vérifier kind of biscuits»)
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14:55:19 <boily> nisstyrello.
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15:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, you can't just announce your address on the internet like that!!
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15:40:57 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: so what, he just gave me the post office's address. he appröximates like a gentleman.
15:42:28 <Phantom_Hoover> you are making me hate the diaeresis
15:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i love the diaeresis
15:42:52 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: :̈)
15:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck you boily
15:44:16 <boily> I lö̤ve you too.
15:44:39 <ion> diæ̈resis
15:49:40 <elliott> three seconds away from banning the diaeresis here!!
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17:05:31 <boily> back from lunch, and the diæresis is still alive. in heaven, everything is fine. you got your good thing, and I've got mine.
17:07:49 <quintopia> i'm still at lunch
17:07:51 <quintopia> i had a gyro
17:07:59 <quintopia> i think i want another thing
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17:08:57 <boily> the only proper time to eat gyros, kebabs, shishes and other shawarmas is when the sun is down.
17:14:50 <quintopia> i can't make the sun go down sorry
17:14:58 <quintopia> i just have to eat now
17:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you eat a gyro
17:23:45 <Phantom_Hoover> actually, don't tell me
17:23:59 <Phantom_Hoover> the mental image i have is more interesting and delicious than whatever you actually ate
17:24:24 <quintopia> i'm telling you
17:24:30 <quintopia> you put it in your mouth
17:24:35 <quintopia> bite
17:24:37 <quintopia> chew
17:24:37 <kmc> "Nobody really styles their <html> element with { display: inline }, for the most part"
17:24:39 <quintopia> and swallow
17:24:42 * boily has a mental image of Phantom_Hoover having a mental image of quintopia imagining eating a gyro.
17:24:59 <Bike> kmc: what
17:25:05 <boily> kmc: “for the most part”???
17:26:13 <olsner> is it nonsense to set display: inline for the html element?
17:27:28 <boily> well... considering the state of everything web-based, it is only slightly nonsenser to inline <html>.
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17:30:41 <Bike> «"More Research Urgently Needed on Caffeine," says Journal of Caffeine Research» http://view.liebertpubmail.com/?j=fe631771746400747011&m=ff281776736c&ls=fdc615737c6004787d17787564&l=fe61157870640678741c&s=fe1f1079726c037e751c72&jb=ffcf14&ju=fe2317777464027b7c1375&r=0
17:31:05 <kmc> beautiful
17:31:53 <Bike> journal of trippin' research
17:36:26 <Fiora> "gosh I'm so excited for more caffeine research!!!!!" said the caffeine researcher, jittering as he frantically tried to come up with the words to describe the energetic feelings coursing through his body
17:36:48 <Bike> :|
17:36:58 <boily> «my glassware, let me show you it»
17:37:04 <kmc> haha
17:37:24 <kmc> unfortunately if you consume enough caffeine it stops doing anything at all
17:37:24 <olsner> is that a drug reference?
17:37:44 <Bike> caffeeine is a drug, yes
17:37:47 <kmc> or it starts curing headaches, depending on how you look at it
17:39:30 <Fiora> kmc: "if you consume enough caffeine it stops doing anything at all" // my life
17:40:08 <Bike> get off my lawn you punk druggies
17:40:28 <boily> I ain't no punk.
17:41:04 <ion> `addquote <Fiora> "gosh I'm so excited for more caffeine research!!!!!" said the caffeine researcher, jittering as he frantically tried to come up with the words to describe the energetic feelings coursing through his body
17:41:08 <HackEgo> 1103) <Fiora> "gosh I'm so excited for more caffeine research!!!!!" said the caffeine researcher, jittering as he frantically tried to come up with the words to describe the energetic feelings coursing through his body
17:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> that sounds like a lyttle lytton entry
17:41:46 <Bike> everything's always lyttle lytton with you
17:41:50 <boily> that sounds like more work for me :p
17:41:51 <Bike> there's more to life than lytton!!
17:41:55 <kmc> there's a great rant about hippies in one of the mushroom books in my living room
17:42:03 <Phantom_Hoover> everything should be all lyttle lytton all the time
17:42:29 <kmc> basically the author is tired of hippies asking him stupid questions about mushrooms and so devotes a page or so to attacking their whole attitude and worldview
17:42:56 <kmc> but it ends with basically "if you want to trip that's fine, just don't ask me dumb questions"
17:43:30 <Bike> which of these shrooms are like the ones the olmecs used to talk to Gilgamesh
17:43:50 <boily> ~duck olmec
17:43:50 <metasepia> The Olmec were the first major civilization in Mexico.
17:43:55 <boily> ~duck gilgamesh
17:43:55 <metasepia> Mythology The semidivine king of Erech, a city of southern Babylonia, and hero of an epic collection of mythic tales, one of which tells of a flood that covered the earth.
17:43:59 <boily> ~duck mushroom
17:43:59 <metasepia> mushroom definition: an enlarged complex aboveground fleshy fruiting body of a fungus (as a basidiomycete) that consists typically of a stem bearing a pileus; '''especially'''.
17:44:11 <boily> ~duck bike
17:44:11 <metasepia> bike definition: '''chiefly Scottish''' a nest of wild bees, wasps, or hornets.
17:44:25 <Bike> yep
17:44:29 <boily> OKAY
17:45:05 <boily> I completely fail to see the link made by a chiefly Scottish bike between ancient mexicans, ancient mesopotamians, and modern fungi.
17:45:18 <Bike> 0kay
17:45:21 <kmc> in practice "mushroom" is used to describe fruiting bodies of some ascomycetes as well
17:45:36 <kmc> modern fungot
17:45:36 <fungot> kmc: of course, i know
17:45:51 * boily is scared. very, very scared.
17:48:04 <olsner> of fungot?
17:48:04 <fungot> olsner: process 2 killed. it's a mammal ( fnord) be top level?
17:48:45 <kmc> fungot: are you a mammal?
17:48:45 <fungot> kmc: but it doesn't answer my question dammit. you're right. i'm getting strange. mit scheme is
17:48:54 <Bike> mit scheme is a mammal.
17:49:02 <kmc> that's not surprising
17:49:36 * boily dons his +3 hazmat-mail of sentient bot warding
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17:49:55 <boily> (every piece of armour is *-mail. chain mail. scale mail. plate mail...)
17:51:43 <boily> say, do we have any D-class personel on hand in this channel?
17:52:16 <olsner> we used to have fungot?
17:52:16 <fungot> olsner: and some discordians say it's a clone of an operator
17:53:32 <boily> olsner: so fungot is a former D-class that got [REDACTED] into an IRC bot?
17:53:32 <fungot> boily: so " my client..." is
17:54:32 <kmc> fungot, attorney at law
17:54:32 <fungot> kmc: 1. it's not the size, it's the pty itself that eats it
17:54:34 <olsner> boily: [REDACTED]
17:55:20 <boily> olsner: gross.
18:00:08 <boily> ~duck laukaa
18:00:08 <metasepia> Laukaa is a municipality of Finland.
18:00:15 <boily> makes sense.
18:00:42 <fizzie> My aunt and her family have a place in Laukaa.
18:01:01 <boily> according to the quotes...
18:01:03 <boily> `quote laukaa
18:01:05 <HackEgo> 823) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
18:01:36 <fizzie> Also: huh. One of the local TV channels is showing a program about baking at 04:15am-04:40am. I wonder if that has something to do with 420.
18:03:03 <coppro> does anyone know a way to make my right shift key only work for things on the left-hand side of the keyboard?
18:03:12 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to explain where that quote came from?
18:03:12 <fungot> fizzie: i want to eat today :) prop. the best fnord
18:04:07 <fizzie> fungot: I'll feed you if you're helpful.
18:04:07 <boily> coppro: create a new kind of shift, xmodmap and/or create a new layout that uses that shift.
18:04:08 <fungot> fizzie: that's the entire point of forking and returning twice, or using cfunge_realerr.
18:05:21 <coppro> boily: afraid of that
18:05:25 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:05:26 <olsner> iirc lshift and rshift are already separate modifiers but every key just maps to the same character with both left and right shift
18:05:31 <fizzie> Grep suggests it was extracted from "<fizziep> somewhere in the forests of laukaa." from #douglasadams of IRCnet in 2003-03-29.
18:06:12 <fizzie> olsner: That's not a true, at least in X.
18:06:12 <boily> olsner: iianm, lshift and rshift are separate keys, but they point to the same index in a key's definition.
18:06:42 <olsner> fizzie: how about the (linux) console keymaps?
18:07:01 <fizzie> olsner: I don't recall enough about that.
18:07:52 <coppro> can I get X to filter all keyboard commands through a daemon before going to other applications?
18:08:29 <coppro> (doing this with a kernel change would definitely be Not A Bad Idea I'm sure)
18:08:54 <boily> olsner: ♪ding♪ you have quotes.
18:08:57 <kmc> ksplice that shit
18:09:30 <olsner> ksplice was originally called keysplice and used for that exact purpose
18:10:20 <fizzie> There's a bit of evdev called "uinput" that you can use to make an input device from userland.
18:10:34 <fizzie> You could have X read that, and source it from a real evdev device.
18:10:35 -!- Bike has joined.
18:10:59 <fizzie> (Sounds like quite the fiddly thing.)
18:11:55 <fizzie> You'd probably need a xorg.conf with some custom Keyboard blockery, because -- IIRC -- by default X would read all keyboard(s), so you'd get both your injected events and the originals.
18:12:19 <olsner> `quote at least as on-topic
18:12:20 <HackEgo> 841) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
18:12:56 <coppro> olsner: thanks for that very helpful fact
18:13:02 <olsner> boily: I think that "..." is not a redaction, it's just a pause
18:14:28 <boily> olsner: woops. I'll change it.
18:16:32 <boily> meanwhile, I have this feeling that I should include alise's quotes somewhere...
18:17:48 <boily> @tell alise where art thou nowst?
18:17:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:18:14 <olsner> in the channel right now actually
18:19:24 <boily> olsner: you are alise?
18:19:28 <olsner> nope
18:19:39 <olsner> fungot: are you?
18:19:39 <fungot> olsner: why do i need something to be desired, so it's all right, we are outside of the function
18:19:50 <FireFly> How philosophical
18:20:02 <boily> olsner: alise is the former D-class???
18:20:30 <olsner> no, fungot is
18:20:31 <fungot> olsner: more or less automagically result in what the reader uses, though it would need to install loggerhead is good to hack in
18:21:53 <boily> me brains are not happy. me need many more coffee today.
18:22:33 <boily> `? copumpkin
18:22:35 <HackEgo> copumpkin? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:22:35 <myndzi> |
18:22:35 <myndzi> º¯`\o
18:23:01 <boily> and may nobody come to me saying copumpkin is someone else without telling me who the someone else is.
18:23:51 <olsner> I think copumpkin has always been copumpkin
18:24:09 <boily> thanks. I feel reassured now.
18:24:32 <olsner> and I have always been me
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18:24:50 <fizzie> olsner: Except when it transformed into a cocarriage briefly, I think.
18:26:37 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:26:43 <boily> fizzie: well, that I understand. the link is fairy evident.
18:27:30 <fizzie> Did you know: Google Chromebook Pixel's touchpad is: "analyzed and honed using a laser microscope for exceptional smoothness and accuracy".
18:27:38 <Bike> Gosh
18:27:59 <Koen_> honed... that's when you cover it in honey right?
18:28:09 <fizzie> Covered in honey with lasers.
18:29:43 <boily> honing... isn't that like when you attract missiles with honey?
18:35:02 <Fiora> `slist
18:35:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
18:36:02 <Taneb> Thanks, Fiora
18:36:05 <Taneb> `thanks Fiora
18:36:07 <HackEgo> Thanks, Fiora. Thiora.
18:36:49 <boily> Thiora: the sulfur-bridged version of Fiora.
18:37:16 <kmc> haha
18:38:07 <kmc> ttants: theobromine, thiobromine, bromine
18:38:14 <kmc> (ttants = Things That Are Not the Same)
18:38:33 <kmc> where's shachaf :(
18:38:34 <fizzie> Also: thiotimoline.
18:38:45 <kmc> I want to do my usual "shachaf: did you know X" thing
18:38:50 <kmc> but it seems silly if he's not actually here
18:39:06 <kmc> fizzie: yes
18:39:13 <Bike> let me just boot up my "shachaf simulation"
18:39:15 <Bike> fun fact 0 = 1
18:39:27 <kmc> but here goes anyway
18:39:39 <Taneb> Bike, I managed to parse that in such a way that it's true
18:39:49 <Taneb> "function factorial of 0 is 1"
18:40:01 <Bike> | n = n * fact (n - 1)
18:40:01 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how "ascii" and "iso8859-1" and "latin1" are all aliases for Windows-1252 on the Web
18:40:08 <Bike> Taneb: !!!!!
18:40:09 <kmc> Taneb: that's the joke
18:40:13 <Taneb> oh
18:40:15 <Taneb> oooooh
18:40:17 <kmc> it's SML syntax
18:40:18 <Taneb> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
18:40:24 <Bike> taneb's mind is blown
18:40:32 <Taneb> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
18:40:35 <kmc> ꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮꙮh
18:40:42 <elliott> looks like shachaf parted because Fiora said I was asleep(?)
18:40:49 <kmc> confusing
18:40:55 <Bike> well what's the point of being in an elliottless channel
18:43:42 <boily> kmc: what? are those... flowers???
18:43:46 <Bike> kmc: i can't see "Ed Balls" in news now without chuckling. thx
18:43:59 <olsner> boily: multioculi
18:44:00 <Fiora> elliott: maybe it's coincidental?
18:44:24 <boily> ~duck multioculi
18:44:24 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
18:44:28 <boily> ~duck multioculus
18:44:29 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
18:44:33 <Bike> ~duck multiocular o
18:44:33 <metasepia> Multiocular O is the most rare and exotic glyph variant of Cyrillic letter O. This glyph variant can be found in certain manuscripts in the phrase .
18:44:38 <Bike> yesssss
18:45:01 <boily> Bike: can I eat your brains, so that I may gain understanding of the Duck?
18:45:12 <Bike> nah
18:45:19 <boily> killjoy.
18:45:24 <kmc> Bike: haha, this is my gift to you
18:45:25 <Bike> eatjoy
18:45:45 <kmc> the phrase is «серафими многоꙮчитїи»
18:45:53 <kmc> "many-eyed seraphim"
18:45:53 <Bike> "Ed Balls tells #c4news if Cameron puts military action back on table, Labour will consider this" "haha, balls" -- my head
18:46:19 <kmc> as a job title, "shadow chancellor" sounds much cooler than it is
18:47:28 <Taneb> Bike, he used to be Secretary for Education
18:47:50 <Taneb> As far as schools were concerned, the British government was balls.
18:49:30 <kmc> c.c
18:49:34 * boily subtly lurches over Bike with a pair of chopsticks and some light soy sauce
18:49:41 <Bike> D:
18:49:45 <kmc> the joke with ed balls isn't even "haha balls" although that can't hurt
18:49:55 <kmc> it's the amazing tweet he sent and the 2+ year running joke about it
18:50:32 <Taneb> "Ed Balls."?
18:50:49 <kmc> no fullstop even
18:50:55 <kmc> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ed-balls
18:54:03 <boily> olsner: if I were to include alise in the PDF, under which name shall I put him/her/them?
18:58:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise is elliott
18:59:44 <boily> Ō_Ō.
18:59:52 <boily> that. is. most. disturbing.
19:01:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:02:48 <mnoqy> that's probably not the word i'd use but okay
19:02:59 <olsner> what's disturbing about it?
19:05:17 <boily> elliott is even more ancient and insane that I previously thought.
19:05:37 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: ♪dőng♪ your quotes are ready.
19:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, ban diaereses plx
19:06:54 <boily> it's not a diæresis, it's a double acute!
19:07:06 <Phantom_Hoover> don't you try your french tricks on me
19:07:20 <boily> fyi, it's a Hungarian trick. hth. :D
19:07:48 <boily> speaking of Hungarian, have any of you tried sine mora?
19:08:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:10:05 <olsner> hungarian tricks? have you been sipping the szoup again?
19:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, he's also ehird hth
19:12:37 <boily> ah fungot.
19:12:38 <fungot> boily: but no frog games on any... emergent properties :) i'm writing a brainfuck to c " compiler" portion that runs on .net.
19:12:53 <boily> olsner: I wish.
19:15:36 <tertu> is ghci just really pokey
19:19:18 <tertu> it took about a minute to calculate fib 40
19:21:30 <kmc> it's slow but shouldn't be that slow
19:22:01 <kmc> well it depends on your fib though
19:22:23 <kmc> if you wrote fib n = fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) then you're doing O(2^n) work
19:22:32 <kmc> (more preciself O(fib(n)), the algorithm's output is its running time!)
19:24:28 -!- tertu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:24:53 -!- tertu has joined.
19:25:05 <boily> ~duck tertu
19:25:05 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
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19:33:26 <fizzie> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (tail fibs) in fibs !! 40
19:33:27 <lambdabot> 102334155
19:33:30 <fizzie> That's a biggish number.
19:33:38 <fizzie> (Though not all *that* big.)
19:34:36 <kmc> > fix((0:).scanl(+)1)!!40 -- showing off
19:34:37 <lambdabot> 102334155
19:38:59 <fizzie> echo -e 'let fib 0 = 0; fib 1 = 1; fib n = fib (n-1) + fib (n-2) in fib 40' | time ghci => 173 seconds; echo '(define (fib n) (if (< n 2) n (+ (fib (- n 1)) (fib (- n 2))))) (fib 40)' | time csi => 47 seconds.
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19:39:56 <FireFly> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : uncurry (zipWith (+)) ((id &&& tail) fibs) in fibs !! 40
19:39:57 <lambdabot> 102334155
19:40:07 <boily> @tell Sgeo ♪d奥ng♪ you have quotes!
19:40:07 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:40:48 <FireFly> Is that a CJK pictograph in place of an 'i'?
19:40:59 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was in place of an 'o'.
19:41:02 <boily> FireFly: no, in place of an o.
19:41:08 <FireFly> Oh.
19:41:09 -!- Bike has joined.
19:41:33 <boily> FireFly: the more quotes I have to format, the opener the vowel.
19:41:47 <boily> (I should have used an 'a' when Phantom_Hoovering...)
19:42:03 <FireFly> `quote FireFly
19:42:05 <HackEgo> 57) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 841) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
19:42:16 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:42:37 <nooodl> > 102334155 -- now *that's* code golf
19:42:37 <boily> FireFly: your quote is in the file, if you want to check it.
19:42:38 <lambdabot> 102334155
19:42:39 <FireFly> What exactly is this pdf thing you're doing?
19:42:49 <FireFly> you have a file on me?!
19:43:00 <FireFly> nooodl: wow, impressive
19:43:13 <boily> hm? oh, no. not at all.
19:43:20 <ion> > 0x6197ecb -- Aww, no golf.
19:43:21 <lambdabot> 102334155
19:43:28 * boily hides the evidence under the... darn. there is no rug here, only wooden floors.
19:43:52 <boily> > fib 40 -- just in case the function exists...
19:43:53 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `fib'
19:43:53 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `fix' (imported from Data.Function)
19:44:35 <boily> FireFly: I'm reformatting the wisdom and quotes, for posterity. and because I am not insane.
19:44:44 <nooodl> > ord'x̢̳̙̏̈́ͧ̏͝'
19:44:45 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: lexical error at character '\783'
19:44:50 <FireFly> Oh, okay
19:44:56 <nooodl> (huh lambdabot doesn't know about the 102334155th unicode char??)
19:44:59 <boily> > ord '\783'
19:45:00 <lambdabot> 783
19:45:13 <olsner> > ord maxBound
19:45:14 <lambdabot> 1114111
19:45:24 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in iterate aux (0,1) !! n
19:45:26 <lambdabot> Defined.
19:45:30 <ion> nooodl: That wasn’t a character.
19:45:30 <Bike> > fib 0
19:45:33 <lambdabot> (0,1)
19:45:35 <Bike> oh, wait.
19:45:36 <Bike> derp.
19:45:41 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in fst $ iterate aux (0,1) !! n
19:45:42 <lambdabot> .L.hs:151:1: Warning:
19:45:42 <lambdabot> Pattern match(es) are overlapped
19:45:42 <lambdabot> In an equat...
19:45:55 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in fst (iterate aux (0,1) !! n)
19:45:56 <lambdabot> .L.hs:151:1: Warning:
19:45:56 <lambdabot> Pattern match(es) are overlapped
19:45:56 <lambdabot> In an equat...
19:45:56 <nooodl> ion: how was that joke supposed to work with a single *existing* unicode char though!
19:46:02 <Bike> :t fst
19:46:02 <lambdabot> (a, b) -> a
19:46:11 <Bike> what am i missing here
19:46:15 <Bike> > fib 10
19:46:18 <lambdabot> (55,89)
19:46:43 <Bike> lambdabot: what's the deal!
19:46:52 <olsner> maybe fib is already defined?
19:46:53 <elliott> you defined fib three times
19:47:12 <Bike> well i wanted the one to override the other!
19:47:17 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:47:22 <Bike> @help let
19:47:22 <lambdabot> let <x> = <e>. Add a binding
19:47:29 <Bike> @help undefine
19:47:29 <lambdabot> undefine. Reset evaluator local bindings
19:47:30 <FireFly> @unlet fib
19:47:30 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
19:47:37 <Bike> elliott: help
19:47:44 <boily> @undefine let
19:47:45 <lambdabot> There's currently no way to undefine just one thing. Say @undefine (with no extra words) to undefine everything.
19:47:48 <nooodl> @undefine
19:47:48 <lambdabot> Undefined.
19:47:58 <Bike> wow great.
19:48:05 <nooodl> @let a = 102334155
19:48:05 <Bike> @let fib n = let aux (f1,f2) = (f2,f1+f2) in fst $ iterate aux (0,1) !! n
19:48:06 <lambdabot> Defined.
19:48:07 <lambdabot> Defined.
19:48:10 <Bike> > fib 10
19:48:13 <lambdabot> 55
19:48:18 <Bike> > fib 1000
19:48:21 <lambdabot> 434665576869374564356885276750406258025646605173717804024817290895365554179...
19:48:26 <Bike> cool
19:49:29 <Bike> when i do iterate like that does the compiler avoid generating code to actually build the list
19:49:39 <boily> @let tetration a b = foldr1 (^) $ replicate b a
19:49:40 <lambdabot> Defined.
19:49:48 <boily> > fib $ tetration 3 4
19:49:59 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:50:05 <boily> beuh :(
19:50:15 <Bike> if you wanted that i'd use a log definition of fib
19:50:20 <Bike> ("yes that would help")
19:51:31 <boily> > tetration 3 4
19:51:38 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:52:11 <boily> even the tetration won't do. I guess g_64 is way off limits...
19:53:15 <Bike> compared to g_64, fib g_64 isn't that much bigger :p
19:54:25 <boily> I tried 3 ↑↑ 4 on my machine. forcefully kill -9ed the process after it gobbled a full 4 GB of ram...
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20:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> fib is approximately exponential anyway
20:04:33 <fizzie> boily: 3 ↑↑ 4 has... approximately 3.6*10^12 decimal digits, if I read 'pedia right -- so 4 gigs sounds a bit small for storing the number.
20:04:35 <tromp> @src tetration
20:04:35 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
20:04:40 -!- Bike has joined.
20:05:22 <boily> fizzie: well, it was growing, and I didn't want my machine to suddenly crash in the middle of good music playing in my headphones.
20:06:00 <Bike> "g_64" bam stored!!
20:06:04 <ion> > zipWith logBase <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:06:05 <lambdabot> [-0.0,NaN,Infinity,1.584962500721156,1.464973520717927,1.2920296742201791,1...
20:06:19 <Bike> boily: pipe g_64 to /dev/snd
20:06:30 <ion> > drop 50 $ zipWith logBase <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:06:31 <lambdabot> [1.0206920565661424,1.0202725752914699,1.0198697640046614,1.019482648379181...
20:06:57 <fizzie> "[-0.0,NaN,Infinity,1.584962500721156,..." is the best start for a sequence.
20:06:57 <ion> > drop 200 $ zipWith logBase <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:06:58 <lambdabot> [1.005042159409283,1.0050168635833612,1.0049918203018742,1.0049670258016374...
20:07:08 <boily> Bike: I like to pipe my swap partition to /dev/snd from time to time.
20:07:14 <Bike> ion: what is this exactly
20:07:16 <boily> ion: that is unholy.
20:07:38 <ion> bike: log fib_n / log fib_{n−1}
20:07:40 <boily> @tell shachaf ♪dıng♪ you have quotes.
20:07:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:07:45 <Bike> oh
20:08:14 <ion> Re: “approximately exponential”, i was curious about that.
20:08:40 <Bike> well it's roughly phi^ or whatever
20:09:18 <ion> > zipWith (/) <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:09:19 <lambdabot> [0.0,1.0,0.5,0.6666666666666666,0.6,0.625,0.6153846153846154,0.619047619047...
20:09:39 <Bike> well, that showed that pretty well
20:09:45 <ion> > drop 50 $ zipWith (/) <*> tail $ fix ((0:) . (1:) . (zipWith (+) <*> tail))
20:09:46 <lambdabot> [0.6180339887498949,0.6180339887498949,0.6180339887498949,0.618033988749894...
20:09:58 <Bike> that's 1/phi, of course
20:10:02 <Bike> known to its close friends as phi-1
20:10:12 <boily> s/1\/phi/phi - 1/
20:10:25 <boily> s/phi-1/1 \/ phi/
20:10:39 <Bike> wow boily
20:11:02 <ion> If you find yourself escaping a slash with a backslash in regexps, you’re Doing It Wrong™.
20:11:03 <boily> you didn't see nothing.
20:11:07 <fizzie> More things should have \ as the reverse division operator. (a\b = b/a.)
20:11:25 <Bike> https://twitter.com/matthew_d_green/status/377120854678585344 this is going well
20:12:00 <kmc> D:
20:12:04 <boily> “Something something Streisand something...’
20:12:09 <Bike> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/09/on-nsa.html said post
20:12:11 <Bike> get it while it's hot
20:12:31 <Bike> "Go after the implementation. Cryptography is almost always implemented in software -- and software is a disaster" lol :/
20:13:07 <fizzie> fungot: You're a disaster.
20:13:07 <fungot> fizzie: i installed wiliki source patches gdbm-ci, and had a simple reader macro in chicken" from google :p. but, this way i have already
20:13:15 <fizzie> Yeah, I'd say that confirms it.
20:15:11 <Bike> "Ugh MAIN macro, great. *WASH_Eyes_outWith_soap*" oh, i see
20:15:51 <Bike> #ifdef (OMG) if (moo) { ... } else #endif <-- oh
20:16:01 <boily> ~duck moo
20:16:09 <metasepia> mooed, mooing, moos To emit the deep, bellowing sound made by a cow; low.
20:16:10 <kmc> re backdooring standards, have you seen https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/11/the_strange_sto.html
20:16:28 <kmc> tl;dr: one of the NIST recommended PRNGs makes no sense unless designing in a backdoor was a primary concern
20:16:44 <Bike> great.
20:17:44 <Roujo> kmc: But what if you *do* need a backdoor?
20:17:47 <Roujo> Fire safety and all
20:19:18 <boily> @tell tswett ♪տինկ♪ you have quotes!
20:19:18 <olsner> "The original author of OpenSSL thought it would be a fun way to learn C." o.O
20:19:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:19:39 <mnoqy> v.fun
20:25:12 <Taneb> Reasons why I should not be an actor: I managed to lose a prop in the 5 or so meters between the props table and the stage
20:27:36 <boily> Taneb: was it an orange?
20:27:45 <Taneb> It was a plastic shot glass
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20:47:33 <boily> before I reformat ZOMGMODULES, is he/she/they a singular person, or should they be conflagrated with someone else?
20:48:22 <Roujo> boily: ZOMG*
20:48:31 <mnoqy> zomgmodules is chris p., last i checked
20:48:52 <boily> Roujo: o hai!
20:48:56 <Roujo> boily: Hai ^^
20:49:11 <boily> mnoqy: oh, thanks!
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20:52:51 <Phantom_Hoover> why the fuck do i have texlive installed anyway
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20:53:22 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: because you are a responsible adult.
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21:16:01 <Taneb> boily, I think the two oklos are two different people
21:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> what
21:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> where did you get that idea from
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21:17:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, a wise man told me many years ago
21:17:44 <Taneb> I think it was oerjan
21:17:48 <Taneb> Maybe fizzie
21:17:56 <Phantom_Hoover> was this wise man oko by any chance
21:17:58 <Taneb> And by many years ago, I of course mean about two
21:18:01 <Phantom_Hoover> never trust anything oko says, ever
21:18:59 <Taneb> Anyway, I am going to stalk sleep and kill it
21:19:03 <Taneb> Goodnight
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21:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> considering that fizzie and oerjan may have been answering based on information given to them by oko
21:19:22 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck you taneb
21:23:32 <boily> fizzie is wise. oerjan is... uhm... wise too, I guess.
21:24:10 <Roujo> Welp. Not-bus time again
21:24:12 <Roujo> 'night
21:29:03 <boily> @tell zzo38 ♪moof♪ you have quotes!
21:29:03 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:29:10 <boily> hungry.
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22:04:42 <elliott> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/dennis-rodman-north-korea-baby-name I don't understand anything any more
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22:51:21 <kmc> woah: python -c 'print u"\N{CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O}"'
22:52:02 <Bike> ⎈very useful
22:52:21 <oerjan> python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"'
22:52:26 <oerjan> `python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"'
22:52:28 <HackEgo> ​ File "<string>", line 1 \ 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"' \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
22:52:36 <oerjan> darn
22:53:11 <kmc> that's puzzling
22:53:20 <oerjan> oh wait
22:53:23 <kmc> `run python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}"'
22:53:25 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2603' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
22:53:32 <kmc> `run python -c 'print u"\N{SNOWMAN}".encode("utf-8")'
22:53:33 <HackEgo> ​☃
22:53:37 <oerjan> yay!
22:55:49 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint unicodedata.lookup(sys.argv[1])\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:55:53 <HackEgo> No output.
22:55:54 <kmc> `unicode SNOWMAN
22:55:55 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print unicodedata.lookup(sys.argv[1]) \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode character u'\u2603' in position 0: ordinal not in range(128)
22:56:04 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint unicodedata.lookup(sys.argv[1]).encode("utf-8")\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:56:04 <Bike> lol
22:56:08 <HackEgo> No output.
22:56:10 <kmc> `unicode SNOWMAN
22:56:11 <HackEgo> ​☃
22:56:20 <kmc> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
22:56:21 <HackEgo> ​ꙮ
22:56:53 <kmc> I started writing like eval(r'u"\N{'+sys.argv[1]+'}') and then I was like "... no"
22:57:03 <Bike> hahah
22:57:16 <Bike> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DIAERESIS AND MACRON
22:57:18 <HackEgo> ​ǟ
22:58:13 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8")\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:58:17 <HackEgo> No output.
22:58:45 <kmc> `run unicode 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y'
22:58:47 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ NameError: name 'u' is not defined
22:58:57 <kmc> `run printf '#!/usr/bin/env python\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\n\nprint u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8")\n' > bin/unicode && chmod +x bin/unicode
22:59:01 <HackEgo> No output.
22:59:02 <kmc> `run unicode 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A' 'LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y'
22:59:04 <HackEgo> YAY
22:59:11 <Bike> `unicode SNOWMAN
22:59:13 <HackEgo> ​☃
22:59:27 <Bike> so, you need to import unicodedata for something strings need anyway, huh
23:00:22 <kmc> U+034F COMBINING GRAPHEME JOINER
23:00:27 <kmc> "The name does not describe the function of this character. Despite its name, it does not join graphemes."
23:00:37 <Bike> does it at least combine
23:00:46 <oerjan> `run unicode 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER H' 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER T' 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER H'
23:00:48 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'LATIN MINUSCULE LETTER H'"
23:00:49 <Bike> or is everything i know a lie.
23:00:51 <oerjan> darn
23:01:00 <oerjan> foiled by terminology
23:01:25 <oerjan> `run unicode 'LATIN SMALL LETTER H' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER T' 'LATIN SMALL LETTER H'
23:01:25 <kmc> maybe rewrite it to do a nearest edit distance match
23:01:26 <kmc> that could be fun
23:01:27 <HackEgo> hth
23:01:56 <kmc> I love that an international technical standard has an appendix which starts "There are two separate cantillation systems in the Hebrew Bible."
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23:07:32 <oerjan> <Gracenotes> don't you know, you can't be Floating and Integral at the same time. it's totally impossible <-- you make that sound like a challenge.
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