00:06:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:09:40 help i seem to be obsessed with tcl again why oh why 00:10:38 just take some heroin to mask it 00:11:50 -!- conehead has joined. 00:12:18 ​`olist 917 blah blah i'm sure someone olisted first 00:13:16 I seem to be becoming a zero-width space conservationist, I only used one 00:14:40 @ask Phantom_Hoover wtf happens here http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/130904.html 00:14:40 Consider it noted. 00:14:46 i'm sure he'll know. 00:16:08 look man i'm not that scottish 00:19:09 `? Phantom_Hoover 00:19:11 Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist. 00:19:21 it says _true_ Scotsman, Phantom_Hoover 00:19:37 so glad that the nvidia binary OpenGL drivers for Linux make heavy use of self modifying code 00:19:51 oh dear, this is getting intractible 00:21:11 kmc: ouch 00:21:19 what do they use it for? 00:21:20 @tell Koen_ I think && and || are just special cased in the language, as in most languages 00:21:21 Consider it noted. 00:21:25 Fiora: I don't even know... 00:21:56 the tales of flaco just keep getting taller. 00:22:17 (||);; looks like an emoticon 00:23:02 um, if I might ask where did this come up o_O 00:23:21 the self modifying code? 00:23:34 trying to figure out why my program is crashing in the opengl library 00:23:42 ohhhh 00:23:56 (the answer turns out to be, calling OpenGL functions from a thread other than the one which set up OpenGL, which is a pretty normal answer really) 00:23:57 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 00:23:57 couldn't it just be like, a JIT of some sort, like a shader compiler? 00:24:01 (but the getting there is pretty weird) 00:24:11 could be 00:24:51 ​`pbflist because Phantom_Hoover said to 00:25:00 And not because of actual pbf 00:25:34 THWARTED AGAIN 00:25:39 * Phantom_Hoover twiddles moustache furiously 00:25:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to nisstyre. 00:26:07 Phantom_Hoover: someone should remove Sgeo's zero-width spaces before he hurts someone 00:26:15 AHA 00:27:07 `pbflist for accuracy 00:27:23 noöne likes a smartass Sgeo 00:39:12 -!- douglass has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:43:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:50:15 -!- dan200 has joined. 00:50:19 oh no 00:50:26 Roujo is still here 00:52:24 would you like to be separated from him *whistles innocently* 00:54:21 elliott: why you're right, it _is_ addictive! 00:57:38 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:10:58 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:20:49 -!- Bike has joined. 01:24:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:39:36 ooh, Nthern is back on the wiki. 01:39:53 the only other person who managed to write something in ///, as i recall :) 01:41:46 -!- augur has joined. 01:42:05 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:42:55 oerjan: Heh =P 01:53:39 -!- madbr has joined. 01:53:44 hey 01:54:55 thzbai 01:54:57 -!- tswett has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."). 01:56:12 I'm starting to think that out of order execution is just a really elaborate prefetch scheme 02:25:46 -!- Poolala has joined. 02:29:44 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:33:47 like, is there any point to out of order execution, other than dealing with unoptimized code and trying to hide cache misses? 02:36:08 (and having too few registers on x86) 02:42:21 in other words 02:42:42 if you had an optimal architecture and no cache misses, would out-of-order be useless? 02:45:08 are those reasonable assumptions, though 02:46:07 well, for optimal architecture IMHO even the stupid traditional 32 register MIPS would fit 02:46:33 like, it probably can't do 10 instructions per cycle, but no architecture can do that 02:47:57 i mean, no cache misses/"unoptimized code" 02:48:26 no cache misses obviously isn't very "real world" :3 02:48:33 right 02:49:00 unoptimized code I'm not too sure about 02:49:03 and i mean isn't there a longstanding debate or whatever about whether compilers should be expected to make good code versus the processor working things out 02:49:20 well 02:49:37 I expect most compilers nowaday turn everything into SSA form 02:49:51 heh, heh. 02:50:04 and can do at least a minimum amount of reordering 02:50:47 and by "most compliers" I really mean msvc, llvm and gcc 02:51:46 I don't expect compilers to be able to do enough reordering to keep a 10-issue cpu busy 02:51:55 but a 2 or 3 issue cpu sounds reasonable 02:52:17 -!- carado has joined. 02:55:29 like, multiplications are high latency so they require a lot of shuffling, but usually they happen in stuff like dsp and gfx code that's usually math heavy anyways 02:57:46 load/store/jump code is mostly low latency ops, though it has less math ops that you can shuffle around... then again if it has unavoidable dependency chains, it's going to have unavoidable dependency chains on a pentium 2 too 02:58:35 stuff like file compression and string parsing 03:10:52 -!- itsy has joined. 03:12:37 -!- jconn has joined. 03:32:17 -!- Poolala has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:40:11 -!- dan200 has changed nick to ^v. 03:49:05 -!- ^v has quit (Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 03:51:47 TCL sometimes reminds me of functional reactive programming in... some ways 03:52:02 Or, at least, has a nice ability to set something like that up 03:55:05 Ooh, I should implement Deadfish in Tcl 03:55:14 I have an utterly crazy idea of how to implement it 04:03:48 Well, ok, not C++ templates crazy 04:08:10 Deadfish... is not very well specified, is it. The page implies that something is a vagriety of the C implementation, then says to check against its math results to see that that thing is there 04:08:27 it is a joke 04:15:39 Sgeo: the joke is that we follow the C implementation faithfully especially in those aspects which show its author was not very good at programming. 04:16:04 Oh 04:16:11 Maybe I should look at the C impl. then 04:18:13 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:19:41 also, i consider the python one within acceptable variation, it was written by the same author. 04:23:38 I feel like my code in generally isn't generally much cleaner 04:24:22 -!- carado has joined. 04:24:39 i'm impressed at the apl implementation, but i feel it could probably be optimized 04:24:51 Um. Except I'd try to avoid recursive loops in non-TCOed languages 04:26:27 err, that -1 check is useless, isn't it. 04:26:43 "unsigned int x; /* make a positive integer and call it x */" man, this is some good stuff. 04:26:44 no? 04:26:52 maybe you're useless, sgeo 04:26:59 oh hm 04:27:00 Bike........ 04:27:11 why are you doing the thing where you insult people 04:27:25 It's an unsigned int, does C convert the -1 to MAXINT or whatever -1 underflows into? 04:27:30 congenital condition. 04:27:48 congenial condition also 04:28:07 wow good scanf. 04:28:51 Sgeo: well decrementing 0 gives 0, is what we've used. i assume we tried it out by running the C implementation at some point. 04:29:17 help 04:29:18 erk http://ideone.com/uQDIhD 04:29:19 what's this code 04:29:49 the exact bitsize isn't among the things we keep slavishly to. (some of my esolang implementations use unary.) 04:30:49 Why doesn't it die? Does scanf not stop and wait for input? 04:31:11 Or, maybe IdeOne is just broken 04:33:11 Sgeo: don't you give all input up front in IdeOne? 04:33:27 in any case, yes the interpreter has no eof checking. 04:33:37 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:33:54 oh wait, it shouldn't print the 0 ... 04:34:22 All I wanted to do was compile i d s and o into ;i; ;d; ;s; ;o; and eval it 04:34:24 >.> 04:34:45 well, my screen is full of > stuff which does not look promising. 04:35:21 oerjan: on IdeOne? Or actually compiling locally? 04:35:37 on IdeOne. 04:35:54 more like IdeoNe 04:37:30 Sgeo: locally on nvg it keeps prompting after any number of ^D (for eof) 04:37:38 *nvg server 04:37:44 nvg server? 04:38:11 Nordic Veteran Gamers 04:38:13 the linux server i'm running irssi from, and email 04:38:23 no, NettVerksGruppa 04:38:41 the old university computer club. 04:39:22 also my webpage is there. and i already had deadfish downloaded. 04:47:38 oh darn it wasn't the correct version, it has a much weirder scanf, no wonder it behaved weirdly. 04:48:01 o.O ? 04:48:45 my downloaded version has scanf("%c%*[^\n]%*1[\n]",&usrinput); 04:48:49 whatever that does. 04:50:23 probably some attempt at reading only one command per line, i guess. (and it doesn't work :P) 04:51:29 -!- carado has joined. 05:00:46 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:15:02 -!- mnoqy has joined. 05:16:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:29:36 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:35:54 Is there a name for those monads which are implementable even if bind can call its continuation at most 1 time? 05:36:03 For any particular continuation it's given 05:36:16 e.g. Maybe, Identity, and not List 05:46:07 I hate Reddit sometimes http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1ltegu/97_polled_online_want_under_god_removed_from/ 05:48:17 I think the fashionable thing is to hate reddit all the time 06:19:02 -!- FreeFull has quit. 06:19:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:19:43 -!- augur has joined. 06:37:22 ion: You know the whole (s,) -| (s ->) adjunction business and the way you get State from that? 06:38:01 shachaf: No. I’m not familiar with the -| symbol either, or with the word adjunction for that matter. :-P 06:38:21 (in this context) 06:39:00 Well, in Haskell in particular, an adjunction is a relationship between two functors F and G, written F -| G, such that (F a -> b) ~~ (a -> G b) 06:39:59 Are there any non-boring monads that meet the criterion I mentioned? 06:40:19 Of bind only being able to use the callback it's given at most once? 06:41:00 ion: It has lots of good properties, including that G . F is a monad and F . G is a comonad. 06:43:49 shachaf: I see. 06:44:33 ion: It comes with two operations, eta :: a -> G (F a) and eps :: F (G a) -> a 06:44:35 Can you give an example of an adjunction other than (s,) -| (s ->)? 06:44:52 With the laws fmap eps . eta = id, and eps . fmap eta = id 06:45:19 ion: Unfortunately it's hard in Haskell. :-( 06:45:39 Most interesting adjunctions involve functors that aren't endofunctors. 06:46:17 Could you give an example of one of those? 06:47:13 Well, do you know abou the category Mon of monoids/monoid homomorphisms? 06:48:23 (Do you know about categories and functors in general?) 06:49:15 Nope. I have Awodey’s book in my reading queue. 06:49:27 and Spivak’s 06:49:50 Spivak? 06:50:03 Oh, _Category Theory for Scientists_? 06:50:33 Yeah. 06:51:07 Hm. I don't know much about it. 06:51:23 Anyway, categories are so easy. 06:52:21 I’m sure i’ll love them. 06:53:02 Well, you know Category in Haskell, right? It's just that. 06:53:31 yeah 06:54:55 And do you know what a functor is between categories? 06:57:27 No. It’s not immediately obvious to me how to make that happen with the functor familiar to me (which is, i guess, really an endofunctor). 06:58:31 OK, so a category is a thing with a bunch of arrows, which can be composed. 06:59:07 To figure out which arrows can be composed, you have the objects. You can only compose two arrows if their objects match. 06:59:29 (So each arrow has a "type".) 06:59:42 And there are also identity arrows, one for each object. 07:00:40 A functor F from C to D maps each arrow "a" in C to an arrow "F a" in D, such that F id = id, and F f . F g = F (f . g) 07:00:46 Normally we write F as fmap in Haskell. 07:01:45 It also maps objects, but once you've specified how you're mapping the arrows, you can figure out the object mapping from that. 07:01:52 hmm, ok 07:02:01 Hmm, I'm being confusing, maybe because it's midnight? 07:02:20 Do you see how this corresponds to the regular Haskell Functor? 07:02:44 Does the “endo” mean that C = D? 07:02:47 Yep. 07:03:20 It maps Haskell arrows to Haskell arrows -- e.g. ord :: Char -> Int to fmap ord :: F Char -> F Int -- with the laws I mentioned above. 07:03:42 I guess i see it. What’s an example of C,D where C ≠ D? 07:03:44 It also maps objects to objects, e.g. the type Char to the type F Char. 07:03:59 Maybe we should've had a bunch more examples of categories first. 07:05:23 Maybe I'm spamming the channel... 07:05:51 It doesn’t seem like there’s other discussion going on at the moment. 07:06:06 Maybe that's because of me! 07:06:12 heh 07:06:18 OK, so let's go back to categories and give some examples. 07:06:43 And maybe a proper definition? Did we ever have one? 07:08:17 I don’t think so, apart from “like Data.Category.Category” 07:08:50 Hmm, I think I meant Control.Category, although data-category's definition is generally much better. 07:09:49 OK, let's start with something else. You know what a monoid is, right? A collection of things, which can be "multiplied" with each other, such that multiplication is associative and has an identity? 07:10:16 Sorry, i meant Control.Category.Category 07:10:30 yeah 07:10:55 E.g. ℕ with + and 0, ℕ with * and 1, String with (++) and "", and so on. 07:11:05 OK, so you know how matrices work, too, right? 07:11:31 (Or maybe not. I certainly don't.) 07:12:03 * shachaf is falling asleep. 07:12:11 `? sleep 07:12:14 More or less. I always have to look up things like how to calculate a determinant etc. 07:12:16 Sleep is for the weak. 07:12:27 thanks for the reminder, HackEgo 07:12:31 But e.g. matrix multiplication? 07:12:36 yeah 07:13:00 Matrices and matrix multiplication are funny because they're almost like a monoid but not quite. 07:13:17 Because you can't multiply any two matrices, you can only do it if they match. 07:13:42 yeah 07:13:53 So you have (*) :: M i j -> M j k -> M i k, and you have id :: M i i for any i. 07:14:21 shachaf: I see you haven't been keeping up with the news: https://collectivelyunconscious.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/matrix-dimensions-reach-agreement-at-peace-summit/ 07:14:51 So that's how categories work in general. You have a multiplication operation but it only works for things that match. 07:15:07 fizzie: Oh no! 07:15:11 Ok, matrices are a nice example. 07:15:35 So, for a category C, you have, uh... 07:15:57 A collection of objects 07:16:53 A collection of arrows, where each arrow is has a domain and codomain (source and taget) object, written as e.g. f : A -> B 07:17:50 A composition operation, (.), which can compose two matching arrows. I.e. for any two arrows f : A -> B, g : B -> C, you can write g . f : A -> C 07:18:48 For every object A, you have an identity arrow, id : A -> A, such that f . id = f, id . f = f 07:19:00 (Sometimes you specify which object you're talking about by writing e.g. id_A) 07:19:12 And composition is associative, so (f . g) . h = f . (g . h) 07:19:19 Does all that make sense? 07:21:17 @yarr 07:21:17 Splice the Mainbrace! 07:21:22 @arr 07:21:22 Arrr! 07:28:53 shachaf: I was thinking about whether matrix transposition would be a valid functor from M i j to M j i, but that would violate the F f . F g = F (f . g) rule. (The rule for this would be F f . F g = F (g . f), i think.) 07:29:10 shachaf: Yeah, makes sense. 07:30:29 OK, that kind of functor exists too, and it even turns out to be the same kind of functor. 07:31:06 Anyway, we should have some examples. 07:31:50 So there's the matrix example. 07:32:03 Also, a monoid is the same thing as a category with one object. Do you see why? 07:33:57 The single object is the type of the monoid? 07:34:35 (*) :: a -> a -> a always 07:34:47 Right. 07:34:55 Well, not "the type of the monoid" 07:35:02 The object can be anything. 07:35:40 Each arrow corresponds to an element of the monoid. The object is just there so the arrows can have a domain/codomain. 07:35:44 Yeah… Still stuck in the familiar thinking. :-) 07:36:26 Another popular simple example is a partially-ordered set. You know those? 07:41:27 Reading the Wikipedia page… Something with (≤) :: a -> a -> Maybe Bool? 07:41:54 Well, a relation, but you can think of it that way. 07:41:55 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:42:37 A poset is a set along with a relation ≤, with the three properties listed in that page you're probably reading right now. 07:47:22 Ok, i guess i get it. The set of subsets ordered by inclusion is a good example. 07:48:04 Right. 07:48:56 Natural numbers ordered by divisibility, too. 07:49:26 So you can look at any poset as a category, where the objects are the elements of the set, and you have an arrow from A to B iff A ≤ B 07:49:39 Otherwise you have no arrows. 07:49:50 Note that you have at most one arrow between any two objects this way. 07:51:23 I take it the identity arrow corresponds to reflexivity and composition corresponds to transitivity? 07:51:36 Yep. 07:52:02 Ok, i guess i get it. 07:52:37 (There's no category axiom that corresponds to antisymmetry, because it's still a category even without that.) 07:53:04 (I guess you could say that a poset is skeletal or something? Doesn't matter.) 07:53:18 OK. 07:53:30 So another category is one where the arrows are functions and the objects are sets. 07:53:34 Or Haskell types, for that matter. 07:54:00 (We usually pretend that Haskell is total when we say that, to make life easy.) 07:55:12 And then you have lots of other categories for lots of other things you might want to talk about. 07:55:34 E.g. you have a category where the objects are monoids and the arrows are monoid homomorphisms. 07:55:41 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:55:55 (A monoid homomorphism is a function f between monoids where f(1) = 1 and f(a)*f(b) = f(a*b).) 07:55:59 (That might look familiar!) 07:58:32 * ion makes notes 07:59:34 There are also very small categories, like the category 0 with no objects and no arrows, the category 1 with one object and one arrow, and various other ones. 08:01:07 Oh, for any category, there's its "opposite category". 08:01:17 Which is pretty much the same thing except the arrows are backwards. 08:01:55 So in the category Hask^op, an arrow from A to B is a Haskell function from B to A. 08:03:37 Does the definition of functor make sense with all of these? 08:03:53 What would a functor between two posets be? 08:05:16 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:09:17 (There are also a bunch of boring ways to make categories, like a category where the only arrows that exist are identity arrows, but who cares about those.) 08:10:21 OK, I'm going to sleep. 08:10:58 I just finished writing notes about everything up to now. Good night, and thanks a lot. I’ll think about the question about a functor between two posets. 08:11:44 Oh, if you're here you can probably figure it out. 08:12:19 Just give the definition of a functor, and replace "an arrow from A to B" with "we know that A ≤ B". 08:12:39 (You don't care *which* arrow because there's at most one.) 08:14:06 Anyway, sleep. 08:14:49 I’m a bit too tired to concentrate as well, i’ll watch a TV show episode or two with a friend and get some sleep. I’ll continue from this point at a later time. 08:49:36 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:09:19 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 09:46:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 09:47:40 -!- augur has joined. 09:49:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:50:20 -!- augur has joined. 09:51:17 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:50:13 -!- yorick has joined. 10:55:26 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 10:59:50 -!- everquester has joined. 11:01:55 -!- everquester has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:02:17 -!- everquester has joined. 11:50:44 -!- nisstyre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:52:40 -!- everquester has quit. 11:55:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:58:07 -!- boily has joined. 11:59:20 -!- metasepia has joined. 12:01:12 good diæ̈resis morning! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/IMAG0024.jpg 12:01:28 (picture taken Wednesday around 6pm UTC-4) 12:02:15 @tell tswett no idea. what are you referring to? 12:02:15 Consider it noted. 12:07:54 Good räksmörgås 12:10:47 ~duck räksmörgås 12:10:47 --- No relevant information 12:16:11 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:17:46 It's a swedish word that happens to contain all of our letters with diacritics 12:17:58 sometimes used to test for encoding issues 12:19:27 öh. 12:21:25 FireFly: Now you've made me hungry. 12:22:01 (I got two wisdom teeth extracted the other day, eating has been a bit tricky lately.) 12:25:41 * boily remembers being on narcotics when he had his teeth disappear into a dentist 12:25:47 -!- conehead has joined. 12:31:30 fizzie: which one did you have removed? 12:33:36 Both left ones. 12:33:52 I also had both right ones done before the summer. 12:36:29 weird pattern, but it sounds more pragmatic than "top two" then "bottom two". 12:36:49 the top procedure is like just about anything else. a little hurt, but nothing more. 12:36:58 but the bottom two... ooooooh... *shudders* 12:37:47 The idea was that I'd still have one side of the mouth to chew with. 12:38:09 Except the other side's so swollen I'd just be biting my cheek the whole time. But I guess it'll subside. 12:43:13 mom's blender was my best friend during those days. liquefied puréed veggies in the morning, at lunch, at night. room temperature. 12:44:52 That might have been a good idea. 12:55:25 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:25:30 'morning, folks 13:25:38 Today is Donut-day 13:25:42 All rejoice 13:26:05 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:26:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:32:40 -!- Bike has joined. 13:32:55 the nearest Tim is 650 m away. I can donut. all is not lost! 13:35:44 ^^ 13:35:56 I am the Donut Bringer at my workplace 13:37:09 spoken as a true Canadian. 13:38:38 -!- glogbackup has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:40:24 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:43:38 -!- conehead has joined. 13:47:46 -!- nooodl has joined. 13:53:58 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds). 13:54:34 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:57:25 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:59:47 AND HERE WE GO AGAIN 14:00:06 Canada Cup 2013, "I can't maintain a connection to save my life" edition 14:00:57 -!- Solain has joined. 14:01:03 hello 14:01:13 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:01:21 -!- Frooxius_ has joined. 14:02:58 -!- Solain has quit (Client Quit). 14:04:06 Two minutes 14:04:11 That has to be some kind of record 14:04:34 I looked away from the window for *two* minutes 14:04:43 And he came and went during that time 14:04:55 technically it was two minutes and two seconds 14:05:13 Well, probably three for me 14:05:14 I hear some amateur radio enthusiasts can achieve subsecond connections with only 500 mW rigs. 14:07:52 imagine walking up to your friends or calling on a phone and saying "hello" and they just ignore you and you wait for two whole minutes and they don't even acknowledge your presence 14:09:17 Hi Mnoqy :-) 14:09:20 hi 14:09:35 Imagine putting up a note on a billboard at a workplace saying "hello" and people keep working for two whole minutes and they don't even acknowledge your presence =P 14:10:02 If he had pinged me, I'd have answered quickly 14:10:04 ^^ 14:10:09 Also, hi mnoqy 14:10:19 yes the joke is that thinking about irc like that is horribly wrong but solain seems to do it anyway 14:10:28 I keep seeing overlap in channels I'm in on different networks. It's fun. 14:10:34 analphabillboardetism is a major problem, rampant in developed countries. 14:10:39 mnoqy: Most IRC newbies are like that. 14:11:26 "Hello, I came to the dedicated help channel for a project, and there are like 15 ops in here that can probably help me with my easily googlable problem, can anyone help me?" 14:11:31 *waits 30 seconds* 14:11:35 *quits* 14:14:04 or, "hey, I have this problem" *32 seconds* "solved it myself. kthxbye!" 14:16:37 Sometimes there's an insult before the quit. 14:16:50 Like, "well, this was a waste of time *quits*". 14:27:45 Ah, yes. The old ragequit variation: cause rage, then quit 14:44:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:49:58 -!- Frooxius_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:52:05 -!- Frooxius has joined. 15:31:20 I like norwegian music. http://youtu.be/PaEnaoydUUo?list=PLfNe3nGQENtP3VCn1t1pybju9ffSPBohU 15:36:51 And norwegian music love you~~ 15:37:38 That's the second time someone's mentioned Ylvis today. I hadn't heard of them before... 15:38:32 norway always happen at least twice. 15:38:50 `quote norway always happen at least twice. 15:38:52 No output. 15:38:55 ... 15:38:56 Welp 15:39:00 `quoteadd norway always happen at least twice. 15:39:01 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteadd: not found 15:39:05 WELL CRAP 15:39:14 `complain This is broken, please fix 15:39:15 Complaint filed. Thank you. 15:39:29 Roujo: have you tried quoting it off and on again? 15:39:35 I have 15:39:37 Killed it 15:39:39 Had to do CPR 15:39:42 On a bot, so yeah 15:44:58 I need a shirt with “once, twice, thrice, fouice...” just to disgust English majors who pass by. 15:45:24 like, wander around McGill. 15:46:44 Heh =P 15:46:59 fiice 15:47:02 siice 15:47:27 If you're not dead by then, you should probably become a survivorman or something 15:52:24 it's easier to get swallowed by a random pothole than to get beaten to death by a university student here... 15:53:58 Unless you're pro-tuition raise 15:53:59 =P 15:57:10 either you get 728ed, or smashed by a gratteux de guitare. if I'm about to go out, then I'll do it with style and total grammar disregard. 15:57:54 (728: matricule of a brutish policewoman who got embroiled in unlawful beatings and stuff.) 15:58:10 («gratteux de guitare»: one of the many epithets she attributed to the protesting students.) 15:58:44 (total grammar disregard: me I'm agree with grammar of angliche.) 16:03:22 -!- Rafajafar has joined. 16:04:02 hi guys, I remember meeting some brilliant folks in here once. Maybe you can help. I have a very specific problem and am looking for a solution that might already exist 16:04:16 I'm searching for a solution that can do sliding-window searches on collections of ordered data. Think if you've got fingerprints for each frame of a movie: f(1), f(2)... f(n) and you intercepted a subclip from that movie and have it's finger prints s(1), s(2)...s(n) 16:04:32 now I could do this in any language, really, but I need something that will index and do a fuzzy search 16:04:46 -!- k_k_k has joined. 16:04:53 ou needed a specific comparison function to compare one fingerprint to another 16:05:17 and that function is essentially a euclidean distance function with a tolerance threshold 16:05:42 do you guys know of any language that would be primo for that, OR, do you know of an esoteric data storage system for such a sliding-window database 16:14:06 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:14:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:16:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:20:22 -!- conehead has joined. 16:20:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:20:36 elliott: you forgot to stealth your ops 16:20:50 also, I've been creating an esolang :) 16:20:59 it's probably my second-best esolang ever, after Underload 16:21:04 err, that exists, I mean 16:21:30 ais523: I didn't get a reply on my offer to kick someone! 16:21:33 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott. 16:21:47 elliott: it's easy to forget, I've been yelled at in other channels for that :) 16:22:29 sadly, I don't have an impl or any programs yet; I was considering holding off on releasing it until I had some 16:23:06 what's it like? 16:23:23 "Snowflake is a reversible, self-modifying, data-parallel esoteric programming language created by User:ais523 in 2013." 16:23:27 first line of the wiki article I'm writing atm 16:23:41 also the "self-modifying" is more literal than normal 16:23:46 -!- Rafajafar has left. 16:23:51 executing Snowflake programs actually alters the interpreter 16:24:44 (this also makes it impossible to compile; if you had a compiler, you could compile a program, then delete the compiler, then executing the program would leave you with no implementation to modify) 16:25:01 I'm glad you're still insane. 16:25:25 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:25:35 :) 16:26:15 at one point during its development, a hello world program would likely need strong AI 16:26:18 but I toned it down a bit 16:26:52 completely independent of all the self-modification stuff, it also has a fun set of primitives 16:26:55 -!- zt has joined. 16:27:13 it's stack-based, but doesn't really have any of the usual primitives 16:27:19 it almost has () from Underload, except sometimes not 16:27:25 also it has rotate 16:27:34 but that's about it if you wanted something sane 16:27:51 oh, it also almost has cons 16:28:41 -!- zt has quit (Client Quit). 16:30:25 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:32:22 incidentally, I also had another language idea 16:32:48 basically, it looks for the eight most commonly occurring repeated patterns in the source, and does some statistical analysis 16:32:58 then interprets them as BF instructions and execute 16:33:13 it'd save everyone time if we had an interp for all these pointless BF derivatives preëmptively 16:33:36 good idea 16:34:30 ais523: Why did people yell at you because you had your op-hat on? 16:34:35 actually, you could get like 99% accuracy just by printing "Hello world" if the program couldn't be recognised 16:34:47 Roujo: it's not so much yelling, it's more just reminding people to take it off again 16:34:56 you don't want everything you say to be perceived as official 16:35:05 it's like trying to play Agora entirely on a-b, but worse 16:35:10 Ah, right 16:35:54 Levels the talking field, true 16:36:34 the other thing is that people joining a channel with visible ops typically assume that there's a troll attack going on /right now/ 16:36:36 I'm used to talking in channels where everyone is +o, so I didn't get why =P 16:36:40 Heh 16:37:14 that's unlikely to happen here; elliott has little tolerance for known troublemakers, and unknown troublemakers are normally much too fun to toy with to actually use op powers on them 16:37:33 ^^ 16:38:14 also, re the topic: "peöple"? 16:38:22 I can pronounce that but it doesn't seem to be a real word 16:38:52 also, is there any particular reason why LaTeX? 16:39:01 (or at least, LaTeX styling and fonts) 16:41:05 oh right, someone's just added a bunch of diaereses even where they don't apply :( 16:41:42 also I dislike the way backquote is rendered 16:42:20 who should I send these comments to, anyway? I instantly assumed Gregor was responsible, but browsing through the reasons behind this, I can't think of any reason why he would be 16:42:30 (also the fact that it's on dropbox not codu implies it's likely someone else) 16:43:01 ais523: The wisdom PDF is boily's work, unless I misremember. 16:43:03 Alexandre Boily, i'd guess 16:43:07 right 16:43:13 boily: ^ 16:43:56 also it didn't render the mojibake properly 16:43:58 `? mojibake 16:44:01 mojibake _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌ̦̻ͭͭͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ­_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í 16:44:15 err, yes it did, the entry is either broken or not really like any mojibake I've ever seen 16:44:40 The backtick is very confusing, yes, I think someone already complained about it? 16:44:55 hi ais523 16:45:02 hi 16:45:52 also, I'm disappointed that nobody's talking about Snowflake :( 16:46:40 you didn't tell us you finished the article! 16:46:50 oh right 16:46:52 oh god, it's huge again. 16:47:00 it's a complex language 16:47:05 thus why I don't have an interp yet 16:47:18 btw, if you write a Snowflake interp, I strongly recommend keeping a backup 16:47:43 also, `? ursala is great 16:47:45 `? ursala 16:47:47 ​~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-, 16:47:52 ais523: polarised nested lists is an oklopolism, by the way 16:48:00 elliott: good to hear it 16:48:13 he had a beautiful language based around them that I forget the details of 16:48:23 it probably wasn't Snowflake 16:48:29 but it's a natural way to do reversibility 16:48:45 because you can use a polarity flip to easily handle error conditions in a reversible way 16:49:05 `complain The backtick doesn't render right 16:49:06 Complaint filed. Thank you. 16:49:24 it was nop-based, I think 16:49:35 I think it used the syntax <...> for positive lists and >...< for negative ones 16:49:39 using whitespace to disambiguate 16:49:42 oh no, this PDF has the QDB appended 16:49:46 I have to stop reading for safety reasons 16:49:49 so you could say <>< <>< <>> ><> 16:49:53 last time I laughed so much I had trouble breathing 16:50:00 elliott: how very INTERcAL 16:50:02 *INTERCAL 16:50:46 `complain missing line break before quote 81!! 16:50:47 Complaint filed. Thank you. 16:52:12 `complain also 95 and probably others... 16:52:14 Complaint filed. Thank you. 16:52:34 btw, did anyone see this year's ICFP contest? I saw it late so didn't participate, but it reminded me a lot of oklopol-Clue 16:52:51 ais523: The "guess the function" one? 16:52:55 yes 16:53:06 Yeah, it sounded interesting 16:53:09 -!- conehead has joined. 16:53:29 also, is there any particular reason why LaTeX? 16:53:39 Probably because boily really likes LaTeX 16:53:42 I guess 16:53:48 LaTeX makes pretty much everything look academic 16:53:57 in the same way that Latin makes pretty much anything look profound 16:54:19 `complain (By the way, what with the pineapples?) 16:54:21 Complaint filed. Thank you. 16:54:58 I like the pineapples 16:55:07 it's like the slices of lime, but more LaTeX 16:55:19 `? bienvenue 16:55:21 Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) 16:55:22 `cat bin/complain 16:55:23 echo $0- >> /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.; 16:55:54 Yeah, isn't it great? 16:55:55 Hmm, it should echo $@ instead 16:56:02 shachaf: the implementation hardly matters, because the logs are greppable 16:56:05 same way that the list works 16:56:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:56:19 i see a pretty obvious optimization to `complain 16:56:22 shachaf: Ah, possible. I'm not all that good at bash =P 16:56:31 I've actually started doing something similar in other channels 16:56:32 And what's the - about? 16:56:46 shachaf: >I'm not all that good at bash 16:56:49 I thought it did something 16:56:55 `run echo $0- 16:56:57 bash- 16:56:59 it does, it adds a hyphen to the end of the message 16:57:01 I didn't have access to a term to confirm 16:57:03 Well yeah 16:57:08 I thought it did something *more* 16:57:16 good thing it doesn't matter 16:57:22 Which would explain why my other script didn't work >_> 16:57:22 `run sed -i 's/\$0-/"$@"/' bin/complain 16:57:23 so anyway, the /dev/null is filling up with copies of "bash-" atm 16:57:27 No output. 16:57:40 `run echo $@ 16:57:41 No output. 16:57:43 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:57:49 shachaf: I'm trying to figure out why you felt the need to correctly handle whitespace in arguments there 16:57:58 it doesn't matter for at least two independent reasons 16:58:09 (echo adds space between its arguments, and the output's going to /dev/null anyway) 16:58:49 ais523: I feel the need to use correct idioms by default when possible. 16:58:53 I guess a habit that quotes arguments correctly is a good habit to have 16:59:01 Rather than think "should I use quotes here or " -- yes, that. 16:59:06 `run cat bin/complain 16:59:08 echo "$@" >> /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.; 16:59:10 Except $@ is very special and gets quoted in a special way. 16:59:11 Nice 16:59:13 But oh well. 16:59:38 well $@'s entire purpose is to get quoted correctly 16:59:44 -!- FreeFull has joined. 16:59:54 `run sed -i 's/>>/>/g' bin/complain 16:59:58 No output. 17:00:02 `run cat bin/complain 17:00:03 echo "$@" > /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.; 17:00:03 $@ is weird because «"$@"» gets split into multiple arguments. 17:00:11 There, that's even better 17:00:24 `complain ais523 doesn't visit us enough 17:00:25 Complaint filed. Thank you. 17:00:48 shachaf: well, I spent days of thought + an evening writing a new, complex esolang which is some of my best work 17:00:54 and #esoteric continues not discussing esolangs 17:01:04 at this point I'm not sure it's possible to get ontopic discussion here 17:01:11 and although I don't mind offtopic discussion 17:01:16 the ontopic discussion is the reason I come here 17:01:24 Womp womp 17:01:27 if there's no reason for me to be here, I don't visit 17:01:51 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:02:08 Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake 17:04:12 Hey, that's the name of my Linux distro X-D 17:04:26 no reason I can't name an esolang after a Linux distro :) 17:04:31 (although it wasn't, we can pretend if you like) 17:06:24 “due for the tendency for documentation to get out of date quickly” lul 17:07:01 ais523, sec 17:07:26 Roujo: $0- is a syntax, it's just not the bash syntax. 17:07:52 What syntax is it, then? =) 17:07:57 ais523, that sounds pretty cool (from the introduction, will read the rest in a bit, got some stuff to take care of first) 17:08:08 fair enough 17:08:19 I am working on an interp, incidentally, but it's not finished ye 17:08:21 *yet 17:08:37 Roujo: I don't quite recall, but it certainly was a syntax somewhere. ircII scripts? Something. 17:08:44 ais523, so unlike Feather it is doable? 17:08:51 hopefully I'll eventually have a working hello world that can run successfully more than once 17:08:58 Vorpal: *unlike Feather it is possible for me to implement 17:09:04 fair enough 17:09:10 I'm still convinced that Feather is implementable in general, I've just proven myself not up to the task 17:09:19 -!- Bike has joined. 17:09:49 fizzie: Ah, yes. That's the way scripting works on KVIrc. Thanks =) 17:12:43 ais523, "it should be stored in files encoded in ASCII (more complex encodings are unnecessary due to the highly limited character set)" <-- that seems to work for most languages though... Can only think of a couple of examples that require more than ASCII. 17:13:01 «lol Perl 6» 17:13:01 and it is impossible to write a Snowflake compiler, due to the possibility that the compiler would be deleted before the program was run (thus leaving the program with no implementation to modify) <-- hm, not quite sure about this one. Would a JIT be impossible? 17:13:12 Gregor: you can write << and >> instead 17:13:14 Gregor, that an some encodings of INTERCAL 17:13:19 or qqw/.../ 17:13:20 ais523, oh? okay 17:13:21 I think 17:13:26 then just some encodings of intercal 17:13:33 Vorpal: I guess a JIT would be possible, indeed 17:13:35 ais523: Yeah, digraphs and trigraphs worked so well for C ;) 17:13:58 `? lachine 17:14:00 lachine? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 17:14:00 | 17:14:00 º¯`\o 17:14:18 hmm, that script interaction isn't going to get annoying at all 17:14:27 don't worry, it already has 17:14:35 we're on the road to acceptance now 17:15:07 can we not just shove a null or a zwsp in the middle of the face 17:15:18 clearly, the fix is to give HackEgo ops, so that it can temporarily mute myndzi when erroring out from `? and then unmute em a few seconds later 17:15:29 the response was added solely for the purpose of `? 17:15:30 heh 17:15:31 * ais523 is in the mood for excessively complex fixes right now 17:15:32 so I like that solution even more 17:15:42 actually it'd do well to stop botloops generally 17:15:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o HackEgo. 17:15:50 we should have HackEgo always opped 17:16:01 it's a challenge, to get it to send arbitrary IRC commands 17:16:12 "As such, there is an effective column of tarnished thread stretching off into infinity." 17:16:16 I like this 17:16:28 is the joke that everybody's too horribly lonery to just ask myndzi to stop 17:16:32 elliott, wasn't that disabled in the wake of the plazma thing 17:16:46 is this going to be another `ls wisdom 17:17:10 Bike: it's more that we're esoprogrammers, and that solution is insufficiently creative 17:17:27 myndzi's wisdom explains it: 17:17:27 ais523, my mind is not in a state for reading the execution model right now. Way too tired to remember the start of the paragraph when I reach the end of it. I guess I'll give you some feedback tomorrow. 17:17:28 `? myndzi 17:17:30 myndzi keeps us all on our feet 17:17:36 uh huh, uh huh, sure 17:17:45 Vorpal: fair enough 17:18:28 ais523: Lachine is where I live. boily and I realized that not only do we live in the same city (Montréal), he's the brother of one of my friends. =P 17:18:37 Roujo: right 17:18:46 Roujo, that is pretty funny 17:18:46 I figured from the topic that there had to be at least two people there 17:18:49 but didn't know what it was 17:19:31 -!- carado has joined. 17:21:28 Hmm 17:22:23 What does ! in double quotes in bash actually do; and, is it actually worth the inconvenience of not being able to write exclamation marks at all in double quotes? 17:22:44 The answer to your second question is no. 17:23:27 The best part is that you can't even up-arrow and fix the old line. 17:23:49 `run echo "!!" 17:23:50 ​!! 17:23:57 Also it's only in interactive mode. 17:23:59 `run echo !! 17:24:01 ​!! 17:24:01 Oh 17:24:14 oh, it just interpolates the last ccommand. 17:24:16 like sudo !!. 17:24:22 or... something. 17:24:22 $ echo test \ test \ $ echo "!-1" \ echo "echo test" \ echo test \ $ 17:24:30 Yeah, that's what it does for me 17:24:31 yeah, it's for interpolating previous commands 17:24:38 I just checked from the docs 17:24:51 bash has a man page, and less's search isn't that awful (although info would be better) 17:24:51 Very useful when you forget sudo 17:25:06 Well, it *was* useful when my "home" key didn't work 17:25:07 i'm running windows right now so 17:26:01 KITTEN/ANTIKITTEN 17:26:03 Awesome 17:26:05 I'm not going to act ignorant and pretend that everyone has man pages even on Windows 17:26:22 although I did convert the entirety of Perl's documentation to HTML so that I could view it on Windows 17:26:37 (that documentation that ships with Perl, that is; not all of CPAN, that'd take ages) 17:28:42 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:28:54 -!- Bike has joined. 17:30:30 back from lunch, I got talked about myself, and if anyone wants to contribute to the Thingue, holler and I'll add you to the github repo. 17:30:34 OK, third question: is there actually any reason for echo "\!" to print \! 17:30:35 (or nooodl too, I guess.) 17:30:35 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 17:30:42 Phantom_Hoover: if you're doing PHP, yes. 17:30:52 oh right the thing! 17:31:31 boily: i couldn't get it to compile because my latex installation doesn't support cjk characters... i have no idea how to fix this 17:32:05 nooodl: I use the texlive-langcjk package on archlinux. 17:33:04 Message from syslogd@dragon at Sep 4 23:21:00 ... 17:33:04 kernel:[189848.967709] journal commit I/O error 17:33:09 That looks... worrying 17:33:17 Ouch 17:33:46 Yeah, an external USB 3 HDD is remounted as read-only on that system 17:33:57 The backup disk to be specific 17:34:09 good thing syslogd told you, then 17:34:18 Oh crap =P 17:34:21 ais523, it was actually printed to the console 17:34:26 Read-only backup sounds like a good idea 17:34:38 Roujo, seems to have happened during a backup 17:34:41 * boily dat extrema unctio ad Vorpalem 17:35:00 [189848.966756] EXT4-fs warning (device sde1): ext4_end_bio:250: I/O error writing to inode 15076550 (offset 17760256 size 126976 starting block 56993246) 17:35:00 [189848.966758] Buffer I/O error on device sde1, logical block 56992990 17:35:00 [189848.966760] Buffer I/O error on device sde1, logical block 56992991 17:35:10 thousand of lines like that 17:35:12 Vorpal: it probably sent it to all VTs 17:35:14 wuh oh. 17:35:17 ais523, yep 17:35:55 ais523, well, the disk is like less than two weeks old, but the USB 3 hub it is on is much newer than that, in fact the first after buying the hub 17:36:03 your HDD is HDDead, jim. 17:36:46 nooodl: could you send me the log of the pdf not compiling? 17:38:14 boily, the HDD seems fine after remounting it. No SMART errors. A bit of journal recovery. Going to run a SMART tests on it. 17:38:22 Hm 17:38:31 boily, I suspect it might be USB3-related actually 17:38:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:38:43 or related to that new hub, since it happened in the middle of the backup 17:39:04 oh. bad thing, that. not karmic at all. 17:39:34 Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.848388] hub 4-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -71) 17:39:38 Yep 17:40:01 boily: karmic's a bit old by now, isn't it? 17:40:10 Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189840.988070] usb 6-1.3.2: USB disconnect, device number 91 17:40:11 Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189841.314285] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: ERROR no room on ep ring 17:40:11 Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189841.314289] hub 3-2:1.0: activate --> -12 17:40:11 Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.319721] usb 4-2.4: reset SuperSpeed USB device number 3 using xhci_hcd 17:40:11 Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.335562] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d24320c0 17:40:13 Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.335568] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d2432100 17:40:16 Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.611473] usb 4-2.4: reset SuperSpeed USB device number 3 using xhci_hcd 17:40:19 I/O failing due to the USB link failing is reasonable 17:40:21 Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.627292] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d24320c0 17:40:24 Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.627297] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d2432100 17:40:27 Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.848388] hub 4-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -71) 17:40:29 Yep, looks like USB fucked up badly 17:40:55 Seems to have happened like a second after I disconnected my phone from another USB controller where it was charging 17:41:02 Less than a second 17:41:04 err -71 is bad. it indeed is an USB cabling error, usually. remove any intermediate steps or hops or everything, change cables, hope for the best. 17:41:20 boily, oh? Is there a list of these numbers somewhere? 17:41:20 boily: did you just look that up, or did you have it memorized? 17:41:24 Might be useful 17:42:32 Vorpal: probably. in fact, that may be very useful. 17:42:42 Anyway I *believe* [189840.988070] usb 6-1.3.2: USB disconnect, device number 91 is my phone disconnecting 17:42:45 ais523: no, -71 is common and happened to me multiple times. 17:42:55 right 17:43:12 The bus matches, the device doesn't though, but that seems to change on every disconnect or connect 17:43:13 boily works in a linux box. He probably has every man page printed on his desk. 17:43:30 Roujo, he IS a linux box. 17:43:33 ais523: I was doing mobile development on android devices, and I had connection problems with one phone, for example. 17:43:34 Nice 17:43:36 Pretty cool AI 17:43:58 Roujo: why would you print man pages? apropos or even grep are better at searching than pper 17:43:59 *paper 17:44:16 some day, I'll build an automated arduinoed facepalm machine, and I'll dedicate it to you guys. 17:44:25 boily, my phone seems to have a glitchy connector nowdays. Just over a year old too. Charging still works fine though, it is just that data might glitch out of you touch the connector 17:44:40 ais523: What if you don't have access to your computer? 17:44:48 Roujo: we have a custom man page about how to brew coffee, scotched taped to the wall next to the machine. 17:44:49 Roujo: then typically I don't need the content of the man page 17:45:00 ais523: Be Prepared is what I say 17:45:15 in the very few cases where I've wanted to check a man page and not had my regular computer, /and/ the computer I was actually using didn't have man pages installed 17:45:24 Vorpal: then it's like an old dusty NES: try to find the correct ritual that works, and stick to it. 17:45:27 there was an Internet connection I could reasonably use, so I looked them up online 17:46:00 boily, my ritual is charging over USB but running an SSH server on the phone and mounting it over sshfs instead 17:46:01 Right, the Internet 17:46:03 Forgot about that 17:46:10 boily, works better than bloody MTP anyway 17:46:34 Roujo: I actually /can/ conceive of a situation where this wouldn't work, but it's never actually happened so far 17:46:45 and there's a limit to the number of things I can carry around just in case 17:46:46 boily, fuck MTP I say. Why did they think it was a good idea. 17:46:51 I'm curious... What would that situation be? 17:46:54 I used to carry out a printout of the FIDE Rules of Chess, for emergencies 17:46:58 and it actually came in handy once 17:47:02 Vorpal: that thing I've been avoiding since its inception? 17:47:04 but I don't any more, it's not worth it 17:47:07 boily, you can't do anything useful over it, like rsyncing your music library. 17:47:10 Roujo: programming a Linux-based microcontroller 17:47:18 boily, most likely 17:47:19 Ah, true 17:47:25 some of the labs where I've done it had Windows computers only, and only intermittently working Internet 17:47:34 so if the Internet had gone down, I could be left manpageless 17:47:34 Vorpal: it's useful, therefore you can't. 17:47:48 boily, quite 17:48:15 lsusb is a bit on the fence about my phone model: 17:48:17 Bus 006 Device 050: ID 04e8:6860 Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd GT-I9100 Phone [Galaxy S II], GT-I9300 Phone [Galaxy S III], GT-P7500 [Galaxy Tab 10.1] 17:48:38 The second one is correct 17:48:40 probably those models use the same identifier 17:48:43 so lsusb has no way to tell which 17:48:47 yep most likely 17:49:07 my desk is manpageless: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/IMAG0028.jpg 17:49:17 ais523, however, it does show up as GT-I9300 in Windows for example (as an MTP device). So that managed to detect it somehow 17:49:26 manpage, the page for men 17:49:27 boily: did you feel the need to photograph your desk just to prove there were no man pages on it? 17:49:41 boily, work or home? 17:49:47 also not enough monitors 17:49:50 that looks like work 17:49:55 made with VELLUM 17:49:55 home wouldn't have a room that shape, most likely 17:50:00 Hm true 17:50:03 and yes Vorpal 17:50:03 ais523: yes. I have honour! 17:50:11 Phantom_Hoover, ? 17:50:16 Vorpal: work. 17:50:18 boily: Nice desk. I like it. 17:50:24 Mine is a bit... messier. 17:50:27 this isn't sweden where everyone lives in rooms the size of a small house 17:50:32 I actually don't have a desk atm 17:50:41 as of yesterday 17:50:47 elliott: can you voice me, please? 17:50:50 the teaching contract thing ended 17:50:55 boily: yes 17:51:01 so I gave the desk back because I have no reason to use it and the department's short atm 17:51:09 Phantom_Hoover, eh, not that roomy in my place. I just thought it looked a bit unordered for a work desk 17:51:28 (well, I actually returned a key that opens most of the doors in the building, rather than the desk; the desk was in the right place, the problem was that the wrong person was there) 17:51:38 Vorpal: my work desk was basically empty 17:51:46 this isn't sweden, where all desktop items are aligned upon perfect euclidean boundaries 17:51:47 I spent 4 years with nothing there but CPU/monitor/mouse/keyboard 17:52:01 ais523, what about the HDD? 17:52:02 `run echo "An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info" >wisdom/atm 17:52:06 No output. 17:52:07 i assume swiss desktop items are noneuclidean and gigeresque. 17:52:08 and a filing cabinet with a bunch of paper in (most of which has now been recycled or sent for secure disposal) 17:52:12 Vorpal: CPU tower container thing 17:52:20 ais523, XD 17:52:33 there was probably an HDD in there too, although all the filesystems I use regularly were NFS 17:52:41 *used 17:52:42 elliott: you mathemanswered me, didn't you? 17:52:46 ais523, oh? A thin client? 17:52:47 well, still use from time to time 17:52:47 and dutch desktop items disobey all laws of perspective? 17:53:06 Vorpal: no, it was like a powerful quad-core machine or something 17:53:11 Heh 17:53:19 but the storage was all elsewhere, for centralisation reasons 17:53:30 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:53:34 ais523, a quad core is not that powerful these days, more like the norm nowdays. Impressive how technology progresses 17:53:46 Even my phone is quad core after all 17:53:47 yeah, but it was powerful at the time 17:54:01 it's quite rare that I actually used the power 17:54:07 My phone is way more powerful than my first computer. By order of magnitudes. 17:54:13 Roujo: I githubly found you. 17:54:20 ^^ 17:54:21 probably the only time was when I used Virtualbox for marking the keyloggers 17:54:28 And my first computer was a first-model iBook, so it isn't like I'm talking about a 386 or such here 17:54:53 mostly because rebooting would have been a pain if they went wrong and crashed the kernel 17:54:57 ais523, marking the keyloggers? What? 17:55:04 Key loggers? That sounds... nefarious 17:55:06 Vorpal: the students were asked to write keyloggers 17:55:08 I was asked to mark them 17:55:13 Heh 17:55:19 it's quite a simple exercise that you can give starting-out kernel developers 17:55:27 Ah yes 17:55:37 you only have to hook one interrupt, and it has the basics of things like memory allocation discipline and proper locking 17:55:44 and making files in /proc 17:56:06 ais523, I would assume it works differently for PS/2, serial, USB and so on? 17:56:39 I don't think it did in that exercise, possibly they were hooking at a different abstraction level 17:56:44 ah 17:57:05 or else the course designer didn't realise that would be a problem, and it just happened to use the same virtualised port in VirtualBox 17:57:19 Ah 17:57:22 (the students were working in a lab of computers set aside for that sort of thing, which get wiped afterwards) 17:57:34 I can believe that the people in charge of the course didn't think it would be a problem 17:57:43 Right 17:58:12 boily: How do you get that sweet, short URL? 17:58:15 For dropbox%? 17:58:17 it was an 11-week course, designed to be worked on at the same time as 5 other courses, about assembler and C and the GNU dialect of C and C++ and Linux kernel development 17:58:19 Not that you ever see anything but USB these days. Or I guess whatever laptops use for their internal keyboards... 17:58:26 Hm what *do* those use? 17:58:35 Internal PS/2 or something better? 17:58:43 PS/2 would make sense 17:58:56 but it could believably be something else 17:59:11 ais523, seems like it would be costlier to not reuse the existing USB bus, like almost all bluetooth modules do in laptops anyway 17:59:43 Vorpal: well then you need a bunch of hardware to convert the keypresses to the USB protocol 17:59:46 might still be cheaper, though, I guess 18:00:02 Ah, found it 18:00:04 it would depend on whether complexity on the motherboard or keyboard was more costly 18:00:04 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/a9v6ve4elg7m36p/20130906_135201.jpg 18:00:25 which would likely depend on what connectors happened to be on the motherboard 18:00:33 Roujo, nice office. 18:00:38 because you're probably ordering them COTS, rather than having them custom-made 18:00:44 "office", yeah =P 18:00:53 Roujo, oh? I thought it wasn't home 18:00:59 More like "mostly open cubicule", but yeah, office 18:01:00 Roujo, seems like you suffer a 16:9 monitor though 18:01:21 Vorpal: What do you suggest? =P 18:01:24 do people actually work on their desktop computers at offices? 18:01:28 Roujo, 16:10 18:01:31 I used my tiny laptop/almost a netbook 18:01:41 at least partly because it was outside the firewall 18:01:47 thus no real risk if I messed up 18:01:49 ais523, we have laptops in mostly permanent docking stations at work 18:02:02 ais523: I do. Few people use laptops here. 18:02:06 Vorpal: that mostly defeats the point of a laptop 18:02:32 ais523, They are pretty useless outside of those docks, since they use 180 W PSUs to run at max speed. Battery time is abyssmal. But they are really good when compiling code. Top end quad core i7s 18:02:37 I carry my laptop pretty much everywhere 18:02:38 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:02:41 And massive SSDs inside 18:02:53 And as much RAM as you can fit in them. 18:02:59 also, the battery time on this is just about sufficient to boot it and enter your password 18:03:02 I think mine has 12 GB RAM 18:03:04 because it's several years old 18:03:13 it used to be like 8 hours, but modern batteries lose duration so quickly 18:03:38 Roujo: sorry, stuck with a hairy XML problem here. 18:03:54 ais523, anyway I couldn't work on a laptop, too small screen. I regluarly use 2 external 24" 16:10 monitors + the built in laptop 16:9 monitors for various windows 18:03:56 boily: Shave it? 18:04:12 I really would like to, but my SO wont let me near any blade. 18:04:29 Vorpal: I can fit two 80-column programs side by side on this screen 18:04:33 which is big enough for me 18:04:39 on occasion sometimes I'll split it into 4 18:04:42 both vertically and horizontally 18:04:43 Not enough for me. 18:04:53 Roujo: but yeah, dropbox.com → dossier Public → clic droit sur l'image → Copier le lien public. 18:05:01 Vorpal: what, 80 columns or 4 programs? 18:05:54 ais523, need an entire monitor to run the various component simulations, since I develop for a distributed embedded system, with like 4 units having monitors on their own, plus a window for the operator panel with the levers and what not. And a window with the IO module simulator 18:06:15 lots of simulated CAN buses there 18:06:17 why does a simulation need a monitor at all? 18:06:22 * ais523 is confused 18:06:45 ais523, well, if you want to mess with the GUI the users see. It is a control system for mining equipment. And there are several screens in the real machine. 18:06:49 ah right 18:07:01 yeah, developing GUIs is a decent reason to have a larger monitor than everyone else 18:07:06 so you can have their monitor + other things 18:07:14 ofc, this is a reason for everyone else to have small monitors 18:07:17 otherwise that couldn't be posible 18:08:06 ais523, plus there is the manging client used in the control room or mine office and the coordination server for remote allocation (and some system configuration), but I can't have non-overlapping windows if I have *everything* open. 18:08:23 * ais523 hopes that "manging" is a typo for "mangling" rather than "managing" 18:08:53 ais523, the latter alas. It just shows where all the units are on a map, and how much fuel and so on they have 18:09:01 And where in the drill plans they are 18:09:28 ais523, since each application also opens a 80x25 terminal window for the log/debug output, the screens fills quickly 18:10:24 We use a autohotkey script to move all the windows around after starting the simulation. I hate autohotkeys syntax with a passion. 18:10:30 autohotkey's* 18:11:15 this is beginning to sound increasingly WTF over time 18:11:29 -!- Bike has joined. 18:11:30 I guess one really good thing about working for a CS department 18:11:45 is that the sysadmins / computer technicians (they're the same people there) are really really good at their jobs 18:11:52 hah 18:11:52 because if they weren't, everyone would call them on it 18:12:16 in a CS lab i actually managed to print a document to a physical printer 18:12:18 triumph, imo 18:12:22 I ended up having to need a kernel with custom configuration for a marking script, we explained the problem and they created a VM with a suitably configured kernel 18:12:28 and the same filesystems as everything else 18:12:38 Bike: at our lab, that'd have something like a 50% chance of working 18:12:41 ais523, Anyway autohotkey is an a quite reasonable option for moving windows around on Windows. Because afaik there is no other good option for doing that when you press a key combo 18:12:47 also it was mostly me who ended up refilling the printers in practice 18:12:50 because I printed so many handouts 18:13:09 Vorpal: yes, I'm just more amused that the situation became necessary in the first place 18:13:17 it'd be nice to just pipe all the terminal output into a monitoring program, for instance 18:13:26 that presents it appropriately 18:14:06 ais523, true, that would be nice. Not sure it would be doable under windows though 18:14:24 Vorpal: I was working with Windows console programming recently 18:14:27 and my verdict is, "no idea" 18:14:39 ais523, anyway windows opens windows (pun not intended) in terrible positions by default. 18:14:45 Vorpal: it's not even a pun 18:14:48 it's what the OS is named after 18:14:55 true 18:14:57 ais523: 50% is more than the usual rate. time before that i tried to print something i had to download drivers. and install via a sh. 18:15:02 which is probably a bad idea because the existence of X means that they can't trademark it 18:15:14 Bike: we wouldn't have enough perms to do that 18:15:21 the actual printing system worked fine 18:15:24 on my personal computer, i mean 18:15:27 but the queues had a tendency to just get stuck 18:15:28 Bike: oh 18:15:41 I'd do that via print to PDF + scp + ssh to send it to the printer 18:15:45 We have a pretty cool printer system at work. You just print to the "Print Anywhere" device, then go to a printer and swipe your RFID door key thingy 18:15:47 okay, well, that sucks. 18:15:51 then you get a list of your printer queue 18:15:59 And can select to print whatever 18:16:00 but I was talking about from the labs themselves 18:16:15 but it's very rare I needed to print anything other than handouts for students and marksheets 18:16:24 and those could most easily be printed in the lab anyway 18:16:41 (at least partly to stop people stealing them before I had a chance to collect them from the printer) 18:16:51 also you know what's weird? the way we have a desktop metaphor and then cover our desktops in windows 18:16:55 (which is unlikely but I took data protection seriosuly, especially when marks are involved) 18:17:38 like, i have a physical desk, and there are hardly any windows on it at all. 18:17:46 ais523, where do you work now? 18:17:57 Bike, XD 18:18:04 Vorpal: currently I'm finishing up a PhD, so at home 18:18:06 maybe back in the 60s there was a fad of desks made of glass 18:18:09 this is the only logical explanation 18:18:10 ais523, ah 18:18:25 some kind of system of wheels to move glass around the surface 18:18:27 Bike, I have seen living room tables made of glass 18:18:53 Well the surface that is, usually not the legs 18:19:05 in the desktop metaphor that would be having your desktop background be a view into your CRT or some shit (back when we used crts) 18:19:07 Though that would be cool and probably dangerous 18:19:41 man. remember crts? 18:19:42 fuck crts. 18:19:43 yes 18:19:49 I hate them with a passion 18:20:02 how is something with an "electron gun" so damn inconvenient. 18:20:06 Never really sharp, always slightly blurry and headache inducing 18:20:18 if i had an electron gun i'd just shoot it all the time 18:20:34 good CRTs actually have better image quality than good LCDs 18:20:39 if I had an electron gun, I'd make myself instant hot-dogs. 18:20:41 but people preferred LCDs because they took up less space 18:20:41 Bike, it isn't called a "gun" in Swedish. We use the terms "anod" and "katod" 18:20:52 my grocery clerk? a professor? someone asking me out on a date? BAM electrongun'd. 18:20:52 boily: I'm not sure if you can cook a hot dog effectively with beta-radiation 18:20:52 Pretty sure they are used in English as well 18:21:03 Vorpal: "anode", "cathode" 18:21:06 Vorpal: anode and cath- yeah. 18:21:13 ais523: cooking it effectively is not the point. 18:21:16 technical terms for referring to electrodes at particular voltages 18:21:27 ais523, that depends on the quality of the LCD I would say. IPS panels can be pretty damn good 18:21:27 (irradiating hot-dog sausages, otoh... :D) 18:21:46 ais523, I moved over to IPS at home after getting used to it at work 18:22:52 Bike: would you electron-gun iverum 18:22:58 I can heartily recommend Dell UltraSharp U2413 btw. Dell UltraSharp U2412M is a bit cheaper (mostly due to the fact that it is sRGB instead of wide gamut) but still really good 18:23:06 Fiora: you /and/ him, babe 18:23:23 that sounds painful :< 18:23:46 Vorpal: anyway we wouldn't use "anode"/"cathode" to talk about an electron gun generally in English; it'd be like casually describing a computer by what sort of motherboard it used 18:23:57 i don't think electron guns actually do anything to people 18:24:20 ais523, hm I guess there is the term "elektronstrålerör" now that I think about it. Which would be "electron beam tube" 18:24:51 or even electron ray tube 18:24:56 both translations work 18:25:05 i mean, electrons are like, small,, man. 18:26:03 Bike: beta rays are actually pretty dangerous 18:26:12 mostly via corrupting DNA 18:26:15 orly 18:26:28 Fiora: ok, i'll shoot him first to make sure it's safe. 18:26:46 beta particles don't sound very safe 18:26:53 actually, alpha/beta/gamma rays are all dangerous; alpha are the most damaging if they get inside the body, but also get stopped very easily 18:27:11 like, even a piece of paper gives pretty good shielding from alpha rays 18:27:28 so beta are the most dangerous if you're near the source, and gamma from a long distance 18:27:51 ais523, what about neutrons? 18:28:02 unless you pointed an alpha ray directly at an open wound, but don't do that 18:28:04 Vorpal: I don't know 18:28:04 As happens in a chain reaction with uranium and such 18:28:18 What is that radiation even called? 18:28:22 I assume that there are people who know how dangerous they are, but I'm not one of them 18:30:01 neutrons are just called neutrons I thikn 18:30:08 yes 18:30:18 and unlike the others there are different kinds iirc 18:30:21 imo zeta rays. 18:30:27 Phantom_Hoover, oh? 18:30:54 there's only one sort of neutron AFAIK 18:31:06 yeah, but they can have different energies 18:31:07 I guess there are antineutrons too but they tend not to exist very much 18:31:18 Phantom_Hoover: well, in that case, there are different kinds of gamma ray too 18:31:21 wow, way to be discriminatory ais. 18:31:24 i guess alpha, beta and gamma are all pretty constrained by the nuclear processes that emit them 18:31:47 Bike: ? 18:31:53 nevermind 18:31:59 can't neutrons have differente spin or some shit 18:32:03 all these particles fuckcing spin 18:32:11 yeah but that doesn't matter 18:32:16 oh 18:32:30 but afaik the interactions that lead to alpha/beta decay have fairly strict requirements 18:32:39 yeah, most alpha particles have around the same energy 18:33:16 there's an isotope of tantalum which should in theory be ridiculously unstable, but because of this bizarre convergence of different effects is very very stable 18:33:23 ta-180m~ 18:33:35 fuck you i loved it first 18:33:36 the fuck is tantalum even for 18:33:36 I love those weird cool isotopes like that 18:33:45 Bike, capacitors hth 18:33:54 god fuck capacitors 18:34:03 :< 18:34:14 j/k, i <3 capacitance. 18:34:23 Phantom_Hoover: was that during your metallurgy hipster phase 18:34:44 or like, the reason that technetium doesn't have any stable isotopes 18:34:49 or the be8/c12 resnoance 18:34:51 or halo nuclei 18:34:54 i'm really into niobium, you've probably never heard of it, etc 18:34:58 (nuclear physics is so wonderful) 18:35:20 Bike: there are such things as element hipsters? 18:35:29 err, *elliott: 18:35:45 sorry, I have more scrollback than Vorpal but I read it backwards 18:35:48 so I can get a little out of context sometimes 18:35:57 Roujo: could you voice me? elliott is being a mathematician today. 18:36:00 ais523, I have 1000 lines per channel iir 18:36:02 iirc* 18:36:38 ais523: lanthanides are way better displayed on vinyl 18:36:46 Vorpal: are you not aware that "Vorpal has no scrollback" is a #esoteric meme? 18:36:57 I am Not Authorized to Perform this Operatiön 18:37:30 Öperation 18:37:41 ais523, I am, but I'm ignoring it 18:37:43 Öpërätïön 18:37:45 Vorpal: right 18:37:58 ais523, anyway the reason for me is probably reading it from the end and upwards too 18:37:59 boily: Ask HackEgo 18:38:05 I tend to do that 18:38:11 HackEgo: VOICE! NOW! 18:38:15 HackEgo: pretty please. 18:38:25 boily: why do you want voice so much anyway? 18:38:44 ais523: equilibrium of the forces. and I'm jealous of Roujo's status :D 18:38:50 we should download irssi into hackego and have it join. it will, of course, be opped 18:39:12 I don't think hackego knows its own IRC password 18:39:20 that's deep. 18:40:10 in much the same way that programs are normally unaware of their own source coe 18:40:14 (except in the case of Feather) 18:40:24 oh, also Snowflake tells programs what their own source code is 18:40:41 which isn't actually required, ofc – you could just write everything as quines – but they tend to need to know so that they can repair it 18:40:41 what about kleene's theorem.................. 18:41:12 `quote feather 18:41:13 871) -!- ais523 has parted #esoteric ("someone is going to mention Feather, I know it"). \ 872) i don't even know anything about feather and i'm getting sick of the time travel jokes \ 902) in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a fo 18:41:19 why does Roujo have voice anyway? 18:41:28 he asked for it 18:41:29 The Canadian Cup, 2013 18:41:31 I didn't 18:41:34 oh, right 18:41:35 okay? 18:41:37 yes did! 18:41:37 who did 18:41:41 it's boily who asked for it 18:41:45 He might have 18:42:07 All I know is that I got voice while commenting the race 18:42:14 Along with boily 18:43:26 hmm… what might be interesting would be an IRC flag/permission-like thing 18:43:40 that does nothing at all, except allow you to turn it on and off on other people 18:43:46 it'd be an interesting exercise in social dynamics 18:43:46 That would be awesome 18:44:11 Over on SlashNET, there's a channel where anyone that gets in gets ops 18:44:30 So you just have to join it, and you get ops 18:44:31 ~duck slashnet 18:44:31 SlashNET is a medium-sized, independently operated Internet Relay Chat (IRC) network. 18:44:43 That's also an interesting social experiment 18:44:47 is slashnet one of those anti-serv places 18:44:55 Roujo: you heretic. there is one network, and the network is Freenode. 18:44:58 Nope, Services are there 18:45:03 ok 18:45:04 Roujo: heh; I remember the terms and conditions for quakenet 18:45:23 which pretty much explicitly say "don't do that, are you idiots, if you op everyone in your channel we refuse to help if someone screws it up (which they will)" 18:45:27 well, they don't use the same language 18:45:33 ^^ 18:45:44 I've yet to see anyone abuse the op powers 18:46:03 Which is impressive, imo 18:46:10 it depends on which networks you go to 18:46:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:46:24 I've been on the receiving end of op abuse in other channels before now 18:46:24 On the everyone-is-an-op channel, I mean 18:46:43 I got k/b'd from other channels for no reason before =P 18:46:46 Well, "no reason" 18:46:48 my normal technique for dealing with it is to avoid the channel for a long time in order to worry people into thinking that I was seriously offended 18:46:52 1) "I thought you were someone else" 18:46:58 2) "I don't know you, so get out" 18:47:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:47:05 especially in channels where the vast majority of people have autojoin, and joke kicks are comon 18:47:07 *common 18:47:10 Heh 18:47:20 for 2), it's called setting invite-only (or channel key) 18:47:23 1) is understandable though 18:47:40 Yeah =P 18:47:45 It was just pretty random 18:47:48 Since I just got in 18:48:11 It was about an old community I was a part of, so I was catching up, talking to people 18:48:28 And then some op came back, saw that I was called Skynet, panicked and k/b'd me 18:48:58 terrified of the terminator menace 18:49:23 from my point of view: if Skynet really does become reality and start taking over the Internet (and then the whole world by proxy) 18:49:34 if it actually thinks it's safe for it to use its real name, we're probably screwed no matter what 18:49:38 so there's no point in worrying about it 18:50:50 Good point 18:51:18 guess we're going to have to travel back in time to tell the op this. 18:51:22 ais523: We were talking about how I became Skynet just yesterday 18:51:47 When you suggested that I /nick Skynet to scare Darth_Cliche, back when I played BlogNomic 18:51:56 wow, I'd mostly forgotten that 18:52:04 So that blognomicbot would show "Players watching the game: Skynet" 18:52:17 I caused enough controversy when I started using callforjudgement on blognomic IRC, before I was a player 18:52:20 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement. 18:52:25 She didn't remember it at all, either =P 18:52:31 blognomic controversy 18:52:33 the nick stuck, but I'm not allowed to use it for nomic any more 18:52:47 I remember, though. She came in and, again, k/b'd me. =P 18:53:03 ~duck blognomic 18:53:04 Software description: support applications for various blognomic dynasties (Python). 18:53:04 Nevermind the fact that I had ops, so I was (probably) a known player =P 18:53:05 But eh 18:53:11 Heh 18:53:19 boily: http://blognomic.com/ 18:53:21 * boily kicks DDG in the self-referential definitions 18:53:29 -!- mnoqy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:53:37 -!- mnoqy has joined. 18:53:45 blognomic's the gateway nomic for addicting people to nomic 18:53:49 Yup 18:54:03 basically, because a) it's easy to play, and b) it's fun the first few dynasties 18:54:05 then it gets repetitive 18:54:17 I caused enough controversy when I started using callforjudgement on blognomic IRC, before I was a player <-- what does that do? 18:54:25 I think I tried nomic once with my bro and another guy (or girl, or human. probably human). it was... politico-confuzzling. 18:54:26 Or your win gets papered over and you resent the game forever 18:54:44 Vorpal: Call for Judgement, or CFJ, is an in-game term 18:54:48 Which makes the nick confusing =P 18:54:49 Vorpal: in Nomic, a call for judgement is what happens when there's a dispute about the rules and they want someone to resolve it 18:55:02 now, in BlogNomic specifically, they felt it'd be useful for people to make anonymous CFJs 18:55:05 boily: We should play together one day. 18:55:17 so that they didn't give away secret information 18:55:17 Heck, I played Nomic with Pouti for quite some time 18:55:19 callforjudgement, heh 18:55:44 (the standard example was in a Werewolf/Mafia game; if one of the Mafia felt that something was unfair to their team, they couldn't exactly bring up the point publicly) 18:55:50 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:56:02 thus, they had a user account, "callforjudgment" (US spelling), for the purpose of making them, that anyone could use 18:56:16 someone (possibly multiple people) started trolling via it, so it got deactivated 18:56:20 then I thought it'd be funny to use on IRC 18:56:34 to show that I was anonymous 18:56:42 except I didn't notice the spelling difference, so I did it with UK spelling 18:57:01 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 18:57:05 -!- ais523 has changed nick to CallForJudgement. 18:57:07 * CallForJudgement fixes caps 18:57:22 anyway, things lead to other things, and it's probably my primary nick now 18:58:55 CallForJudgement, really? 18:58:57 Hm 18:59:02 Roujo: there's the OUMF going on. retrogaming night today! 18:59:07 it's less taken on average than "ais523" 18:59:09 for one thing 18:59:24 (which, as is well-known by now, was randomly generated by the University's computer system) 19:00:23 there's also "scarf", but mostly just because I noticed it wasn't taken 19:01:09 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:01:19 boily: What's that? =) 19:01:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:02:00 Roujo: one of Montréal's multiple mini-festivals. art émergent, random stuff, random people, random randomity. 19:02:13 Nice 19:02:17 http://oumf.ca/ 19:02:31 `run cat /dev/random >> OUMF 19:03:34 No output. 19:03:44 Cool 19:04:42 -!- conehead has joined. 19:04:42 it's less taken on average than "ais523" <-- really? I wouldn't imagine it was used a lot 19:05:16 Vorpal: three-letters three-numbers will be taken by some people just by chance 19:05:25 `run echo $((26*26*26*1000)) 19:05:26 17576000 19:05:35 that's not so big, given the number of users of the Internet 19:05:52 -!- solidoodlesuppor has joined. 19:05:56 True, but far from everyone will take one of those 19:06:00 `relcome solidoodlesuppor 19:06:03 ​solidoodlesuppor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:06:22 Vorpal: and a good thing too, they'd all be taken already if they did 19:06:42 ... Well yeah. =P 19:07:30 CallForJudgement: good to see I'm not the only one trying to autocomplete on mkdir. 19:07:37 (reformatting your quotes, btw. hth.) 19:08:05 `pastequotes ais523 19:08:11 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9162 19:09:04 only those that match /<[^[:alpha:]]*ais523[^[:alpha:]]*>/ 19:09:38 I may as well read them all anyway 19:10:19 I seem to have missed the USB sushi antediluvian craze... 19:12:32 boily: I saw it advertised once 19:12:38 not sure exactly what it was, because I didn't buy it 19:13:48 in any case, your quotes are ready. you can peruse the PDF. 19:16:34 hmm, we need a Snowflake-related quote in the qdb 19:16:45 so that I can mark the passage of qdb times by the esolangs being discussed 19:17:07 quick someone say something funny about snowflake 19:17:16 (I'm surprised that so long has gone since Radixal!!!!) 19:17:27 that was 825 19:18:23 actually, I think I have a good definition for what makes a good esolang 19:18:26 why a snowflake? what is Radixal? 19:18:33 ~eval primeFactors 825 19:18:34 [3,5,5,11] 19:18:47 it's a language which, at the point in time at which it was created, cannot be programmed in using programming techniques that already exist 19:18:54 thus, brainfuck was a good esolang when created 19:19:06 but BF derviatives are not good esolangs, because techniques for BF are well known now 19:19:56 do esolangs ever get used for legit cryptography? 19:20:03 I feel like you hide something fun in a cook book program 19:20:04 I doubt it 19:20:15 esolangs mostly exist to make things hard to understand on the surface 19:20:28 Snowflake uses kittens to reverse stack polarity. 19:20:32 whereas nowadays, legit cryptography is about being mathematically unbreakable even if you know what you're doing 19:20:38 That's enough to make it a good esolang in my book. 19:21:10 Then again, few people even read my book. 19:21:13 But eh =P 19:21:37 Does anyone do esolangs for a living? 19:21:40 CallForJudgement: Good enough of a quote for you? 19:21:41 seems like such a strange place 19:21:54 solidoodlesuppor: Does VB count? 19:21:59 HAH 19:22:04 Roujo: :) 19:22:05 How about PHP? 19:22:19 Right, PHP. Qualifies since there's still no known good programming technique to use. 19:22:20 solidoodlesuppor: there was exactly one instance where an esolang made commercial success 19:22:22 Taneb: we're talking programming. 19:22:24 was it… biota? 19:22:28 () 19:22:32 it got designed for a purpose, then solved 19:22:35 err, sold 19:22:36 Taneb: also, your quotes were reformatted. 19:22:41 :O 19:22:42 mostly it's for fun or for reasearch, though 19:22:48 "sold for a net profit in 1991" 19:22:49 `quote Taneb 19:22:49 Wow 19:22:50 389) Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 395) Cut to February War were declared A galaxy in turmoil Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 396) I can't afford one of those! A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 402) There's that saying that the definition of insani 19:22:53 also arguably the $25,000 I won from Wolfram Research was esolanging 19:23:13 CallForJudgement: You won 25k from them? Awesome! =D 19:23:21 I think part of the reason I got there first is that people were trying to see it as a maths/CS problem 19:23:26 rather than an esoprogramming problem 19:23:27 seems like you could write a nasty computer virus in biota 19:23:36 (understandable, because most people don't know what esoprogramming is) 19:23:37 the rewards for propping up wolfram's ego are great 19:23:55 Phantom_Hoover: well I kind-of fell out with him 19:24:05 as are the costs 19:24:11 why did you fall out 19:24:38 basically because he seemed to consider the entire problem as a yes or no thing 19:24:39 CallForJudgement, I thought you were a newb! I have not been paying attention 19:24:45 when it's much more nuanced than that 19:24:53 Taneb: not enough to know my alternative nick, indeed 19:25:03 -!- k_k_k has quit. 19:25:09 but I haven't been here for weeks 19:25:13 so I'm probably a newb anyway :) 19:25:24 I have never seen you use that nick before 19:25:35 oh, so this is the wrapper controversy 19:25:38 I don't use it on Freenode much 19:25:46 Phantom_Hoover: nah, the controversy happened ages ago 19:25:58 I'm not annoyed at the controversy, I'm annoyed at Wolfram for not even noticing its existence 19:26:07 yes, that's what i meant 19:26:08 also for thinking that something that runs in O(2^2^n) might be viable 19:26:25 that computational class is too high for most people to comprehend 19:26:30 CallForJudgement, by the end of the month I'll be attending the University of York 19:26:38 Taneb: is that relevant somehow? 19:26:42 No 19:26:45 fair enough 19:26:48 Just thought you may have missed it 19:26:51 I did 19:27:02 always important to know whether there's anyone of importance in hexham or not 19:27:13 and if you're in york, there's only a need to figure it out wrt elliott 19:27:37 Can you, as a former student, give me studency advice? 19:28:09 well I was really bad at anything but the academic stuff 19:28:20 I somehow managed to miss Fresher's Week altogether 19:28:32 we didn't even have fresher's week in warwick 19:28:33 and basically just stayed independent of everyone for like a year, it was pretty boring 19:28:37 What did wolfram do wrong? 19:28:39 is list 19:28:39 it was folded into the normal first week 19:28:42 *lost 19:28:42 so I filled in the time by learning INTERCAL 19:28:59 this also explains why the early ais523 era of C-INTERCAL was developed on SunOS 19:29:08 I also decided to learn UNIX at the same time 19:30:43 solidoodlesuppor, basically, CallForJudgement proved a very small system (that Wolfram was interested in) Turing-complete under the assumption that the tape started as some easily computable sequence 19:30:57 Taneb: well, "easily" is relative 19:31:22 solidoodlesuppor, and some people, Wolfram included, didn't like that very much 19:31:33 oh. I heard he can be that way... 19:31:59 Taneb, CallForJudgement: Is there anywhere I could read about this? 19:32:03 Sounds interesting 19:32:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram's_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine#Proof_of_universality 19:32:28 http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/prizeAnnouncement.png 19:32:29 Woot 19:32:34 Wolfram Science have their own page about it 19:32:39 as well 19:32:43 Wikipedia's pretty neutral on the subject, though 19:32:49 which is impressive given how polarized the sides got 19:32:57 I stayed entirely out of it myself (mostly just watched, or ignored it) 19:32:59 on Wikipedia, that is 19:33:06 but there was systematic vandalism there for a while 19:33:24 also for thinking that something that runs in O(2^2^n) might be viable <-- wtf? He thought that was viable? I guess for very very small n 19:33:26 come to think of it, this probably explains why the universality thing has 12 citaitons 19:33:27 *citations 19:33:42 Vorpal: I don't think he thought that was viable; rather, he just didn't think of checking the computational class at all 19:33:49 Ah 19:34:03 there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because he ignored the initialization requirements of the rule 110 proof 19:34:25 what is ANKOS? 19:34:31 ~duck ankos 19:34:32 A New Kind of Science is a best-selling, controversial book by Stephen Wolfram, published in 2002. 19:34:43 Ah 19:35:14 the funny thing is, I fixed it in my head 19:35:17 told him about it over the phone 19:35:21 but have never publicly released the fix 19:35:24 somehow I like things that way 19:36:34 Heh =P 19:36:34 Roujo, as a Canadian, can you give me studency tips? 19:36:40 Taneb: Studency? 19:36:48 The state of being a student 19:36:49 being-a-student-ness, I guess 19:36:53 Oh 19:36:55 Well 19:36:58 Erm 19:37:04 I'm not a student anymore, mind you 19:37:17 And even when I was... I tended to not follow proper studency 19:37:28 Didn't do homework, didn't really study... =/ 19:37:43 Is your advice gonna be "don't do what I did"? 19:37:43 So I'm not sure any advice of mine would be worth much 19:37:47 Well 19:37:51 No 19:38:13 Here's my advice: "Never stop being curious." 19:38:21 That is good advice 19:38:46 Vorpal, as someone who probably was a student but I cannot actually remember, can you give me studency tips? 19:38:48 I'm a bit... lazy at times. But this is what saved me. 19:38:49 Taneb: How did you get your nick indented....? 19:38:59 Indented? 19:39:02 there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because he ignored the initialization requirements of the rule 110 proof 19:39:04 details, ais 19:39:05 I did? 19:39:06 details 19:39:28 Phantom_Hoover: he produced a turing machine (2,5 I think) which, when run on an empty tape, produces the pattern that rule 110 produces on an empty tape 19:39:33 and claimed that the turing machine is TC 19:39:37 it is, but that doesn't prove it 19:39:47 Taneb, hm, find friends early who are interested in studies rather than living the student life I guess. If that is what you want. 19:40:12 I found friends eventually, and got on well with them, for academic project purposes 19:40:16 Taneb, not really sure what kind of tips you want 19:40:21 we went and collaborated to subvert the group project marking system 19:40:44 Vorpal, mainly I'm just a bit nervous because it's a big change for me 19:40:47 CallForJudgement, I'm playing paper & pen roll playing with a couple of them nowdays even after university. 19:41:04 Oh, about being a student... Yeah, friend are important. Surround yourself with people you want to be like, it helps to soak up their interest/intensity like a sponge. =) 19:41:15 CallForJudgement, And we usually meet up a couple of times every year for a dinner or such. 19:41:19 also don't worry too much about getting it right first time 19:41:31 universities aren't like schools where you're stuck with the same few people forever 19:41:46 Taneb, learn LaTeX if you don't already know it. You might not need it at the start, but it will get invaluable pretty soon 19:41:48 Taneb: Being around people who do studies-related stuff for fun is a good way to make the studies themselves fun 19:42:13 -!- itsy has quit (Quit: itsy). 19:42:34 Vorpal: oh yes, good advice 19:42:39 although it can be put off several years 19:42:56 CallForJudgement, we are using a custom rule system, one of us (not me) is a rule set collector and nerd, so he made his own system instead of using an existing one. It works pretty well from what I can tell. 19:43:31 -!- Bike has joined. 19:43:44 CallForJudgement, I had good use of it in the second half of the second year and from that point onwards I would say 19:43:57 is CallForJudgement still ais 19:44:09 Bike, no, he evolved 19:44:10 Vorpal: from my point of view it was pointless because everyone else used Word even when we specifically told them not to 19:44:13 :o 19:44:26 just wondering if someone else is nicked callforjudgment as a joke before i ask ais a question 19:44:29 Look! ais523 is evolving. He is turning into a CallForJudgement. 19:44:49 I had to merge nine separate files, eight of which were Word files, in order to write a report 19:44:51 under huge time pressure 19:44:52 (sorry I never played much pokemon, I don't remember how the wording goes) 19:45:04 CallForJudgement, ouch 19:45:07 i haven't played pokemon in years. you know why? because i'm not a NERRRRRD 19:45:26 the way I did it was to tell people to stop editing for a while, then run the Word-generated HTML through Tidy, then open it in Emacs and run a bunch of regexes on it interactively 19:45:30 Bike, I only ever played one game, and in an emulator 19:45:38 I never owned any handheld, or any console 19:45:43 geez 19:45:48 i at least played on a Real Console 19:45:48 I qualified for the Pokémon World Championships in 2011 via coming top 8 in the UK 19:45:52 CallForJudgement, holy crap 19:46:07 Vorpal: how did you not know this? I think I've mentioned it in-channel before 19:46:08 is there anything ais can't do 19:46:16 Bike: qualify in 2013, apparently 19:46:17 CallForJudgement, no I meant the Tidy stuff 19:46:21 point 19:46:25 CallForJudgement, that is what I went "holy crap" at 19:46:26 anyway i'm going to ask my question 19:46:38 Vorpal: Tidy has a command line option specifically for cleaning up some of the worst excesses of Word 19:46:42 which is just, you do cool hardware stuff, i'm in babby's first hardware class, do you have any suggestions for what to attempt to do with my fpga 19:46:58 CallForJudgement, anyway 19:47:07 Bike: Eat it. 19:47:07 Bike: well the hello world for an FPGA (or similar hardware things) is to toggle one of the GPIOs between 0 and 1 every second 19:47:09 FPGA is food. 19:47:12 I used LyX mostly, and for stuff I was the only person working on 19:47:20 mm, i haven't done anything with the clock yet 19:47:23 I never had to work on stuff with 8 people editing at the same time 19:47:38 my most advanced design so far is something that turns off a different ssd based on which button is pressed. 19:47:40 CallForJudgement, thought it was every half second? 19:47:46 Bike: FPGAs suck at asynchronous, you probably want to use the clock 19:47:49 Vorpal: tbf I doubt it matters 19:47:50 Gregor: i read an article on anosmia in birds the other day and thought of you. 19:47:55 it's like whether you put the comma in the hello world or not 19:48:01 CallForJudgement: yeah, i meant, i haven't done anything complicated enough to warrant a clock :/ 19:48:23 i was hoping for my next thing i could have the ssds display the number input on the switches in base four 19:48:23 CallForJudgement, but that is hugely important! 19:48:26 Bike: I feel a bit conflicted here because I had an argument with my PhD supervisor yesterday 19:48:30 which requires clock because of the way the ssds are muxed 19:48:33 CallForJudgement: oh? 19:48:43 where he was claiming that I should abandon talking about asynchronous hardware because it wouldn't run on our FPGA 19:48:51 and yet it's a more natural fit for the mathematical model 19:48:55 huh 19:49:08 (actually, the problem is that all the existing formalisms of delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware suck) 19:49:08 well, i'm interested in clockless stuff, but it's a pretty abstract interest given my level of capability 19:49:13 CallForJudgement, there isn't much async hardware though, is there? 19:49:15 Bike: so am I 19:49:17 Vorpal: no 19:49:22 but it's OK, this is /theoretical/ computer science 19:49:29 right except you're, like, a phd candidate, you know more9 things than i do 19:49:56 CallForJudgement, I mean in a computer. Apart from some stuff dealing with races between different clocks and such, and IO, all the computation in a normal computer happens sync mostly, right? 19:49:59 right now i just need to do my homework which is "how much current is running through the wire in this circuit" and shit like that. v. basic 19:50:12 @tell itidus19 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser. 19:50:12 Consider it noted. 19:50:16 @tell itidus20 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser. 19:50:16 Consider it noted. 19:50:17 Vorpal: yes; the only even vaguely async stuff is on the buses 19:50:20 @tell itidus21 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser. 19:50:20 Consider it noted. 19:50:23 @tell itidus22 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser. 19:50:23 Consider it noted. 19:50:33 I think I have the itiduses covered. 19:50:35 because it's trying to match different clocks 19:50:41 who all qualifies for quote formatting 19:50:42 which is impossible without dropping to async somewhere 19:50:43 oh btw Taneb don't worry, you cannot possibly be worse-prepared for studenting than me and i managed ok 19:50:44 CallForJudgement, right, what about interrupts? 19:50:52 mnoqy: only itidi. 19:50:56 Vorpal: they don't work until the next clock cycle 19:50:59 Phantom_Hoover, this sounds like there are a fair few interesting anecdotes 19:51:00 Ah right 19:51:08 which is unsurprising, given that computers can't run instructions between clock cycles anyway 19:51:17 mnoqy: like hungarian soup, I conflagrated them. 19:51:29 wow! i seriously forgot my pen. wow. can't do shit now. nobody has a pen in an EE building. 19:51:56 CallForJudgement, arguably they do in the sense that an instruction can be split over several cycles or several instructions can execute in one? 19:52:01 CallForJudgement, don't buses themselves usually have clocks btw? 19:52:04 Taneb, not really, i just had very little experience living alone when i left and i adapted pretty quickly to it 19:52:17 Phantom_Hoover, okay 19:52:24 CallForJudgement, anyway is the benefit of async hardware worth it? 19:52:37 Vorpal: I have no idea 19:52:43 personally i'm partly interested in async because ~brainz~ 19:52:47 that's the problem with theoretical designs 19:52:53 is this a biologist thing 19:52:54 in theory, it runs faster on average 19:52:59 mnoqy: maybe............. 19:53:01 because synchronous hardware runs at worst-case speed 19:53:08 and asynchronous hardware at average-case on average 19:53:17 I seem to remember reading about a MIPS CPU that was async 19:53:20 but the circuits are more complex, meaning that it often isn't worth it in practice 19:53:23 as an experiment 19:53:40 there are things in the nervous system that are vaguely clock-like in that they send out periodic signals independently of stimulation, but it's a pretty shallow analogy. 19:53:57 this is important for e.g. walking without falling flat on your face and dying. 19:54:44 heh 19:54:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:54:47 brb 19:55:35 I think there's a postgrad at York doing something with chemical computers and async operation 19:55:36 s 19:55:47 chemical computers are cool too. 19:56:02 just kind of like weird-ass computers. if only there was a place to congregate, etc 19:56:56 Bike: I'm actually writing a paper about asynchronous circuits atm 19:56:57 international weird-ass computers conference 19:57:22 my LaTeX linter is weird. it seems to ignore kmc... 19:57:27 don't mock me mnyoqyty 20:01:13 `quote 726 20:01:14 726) and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will 20:01:18 any advice on this yet? 20:01:29 define free will 20:01:35 define 3d hashlife 20:01:53 hashlife on 3d moore CAs? 20:02:00 define implement 20:02:11 Bike: basically that the rules involving that color can change at runtime in response to user input 20:02:14 this is important for e.g. walking without falling flat on your face and dying. 20:02:29 my tutor specialises in walking without falling flat on your face and dying! 20:02:41 well he studied insects but you get the drift 20:02:50 insects have faces too 20:02:52 also that's cool. 20:03:14 i wish i specialized in walking without falling flat on your face and dying 20:03:32 ironically(?) he walks with a cane 20:03:36 CallForJudgement: well the one hashlife concept works regardless, doesn't it? as long as you maintain a speed of light. you'd just have to mark blocks as hving to be recomputed 20:03:39 perhaps that's his major breakthrough 20:03:44 Phantom_Hoover: "ironically, he walks with six canes" 20:03:50 Bike: I guess 20:04:08 actually some versions of elliottcraft don't have a speed of light, but adding one would make sense 20:04:42 Alert character (the one that goes beep when printed) 20:04:50 hmm, that's a very informal description for me 20:06:13 he also has a bunch of arthropods in perspex and model ants in his office 20:06:19 and a giant papier mache ant helmet 20:06:31 uefufl 20:06:33 useful.* 20:07:02 kmc: ♪ your quotes are ready ♪ 20:07:22 what 20:07:28 ♪ 20:07:48 :♪) hm 20:09:07 :∢ 20:09:09 boily, why haven't you readied my quodes 20:09:13 *quotes 20:09:24 `quode Phantom_Hoover 20:09:26 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quode: not found 20:09:43 Phantom_Hoover: because I'm not yet doing the letter “P”. 20:09:53 wow, Snowflake is my /second/ language that is slightly inspired by my dislike for Java2K 20:09:59 (/ˈæmbiːɛf/ is the first) 20:09:59 (and if you're asking about Taneb's being done before you, it's because of atriq.) 20:10:09 actually it's my third if you count Befunge2K, but that was never documented 20:10:36 even though it's literally "Befunge-98 where all instructions except ; have a 50% chance of doing nothing instead" 20:10:45 CallForJudgement: you are kmc, right? 20:10:50 boily: no, ais523 20:10:53 oh. 20:10:56 also I just tried to tab-complete my primary nick 20:11:02 that /could/ work, it just doesn't 20:11:09 the mkdir predicament. 20:13:05 I also guess I also have several other thoughts on the matter, but they are too wide-ranging and not directly relevant, so I will save them for The Manifesto. 20:13:10 did that ever happen? because it seems ominous 20:13:48 ooooh! another document to latexify! :D 20:14:10 boily: which document? 20:14:31 CallForJudgement: the The Manifesto. 20:14:35 (kumquat) 20:14:45 * CallForJudgement feels slightly trolled 20:15:52 CallForJudgement: in two parts. 1) cpressey mentionned an obscure Manifesto, that I wish to latexify. 2) http://www.kimmok.com/THE-MANIFESTO-MANIFESTO 20:15:55 huh, apparently atehwa uses an ä in his or her eodermdrome programs 20:16:03 is that even legal? 20:16:24 atehwa: who are you? are you approximative? I like your spurrious diæresification. 20:16:31 CallForJudgement, yes 20:16:57 I guess it is, I just said "letters" 20:17:01 the spec just says 'characters', with absolutely no qualification 20:17:21 bleh, now people who speak languages other than English have an advantage over me in eodermdrome-writing 20:17:42 but you have an advantage over the americans! 20:17:52 yeah, I at least have an ë to play with 20:19:08 (strange how most people deny its existence) 20:19:18 also according to the books I originally learned the alphabet from, & is a letter 20:20:50 «éperluette», which means “and by itself, and”. it was the 27th letter. 20:21:19 hmm, is that French for "ampersand"? 20:21:44 (also, I remember that in Gödel, Escher, Bach, Hofstadter used ""/«»/»« quotes to distinguish English, French, and German) 20:22:17 «» is perfectly valid for quoting in English. 20:22:28 yes, that's the proper glyph name in French, but nobody uses it. everyone calls it «et commercial». 20:22:34 I've never seen »« in English, though. 20:23:30 also, doesn't French have more than 26 letters /anyway/? 20:23:37 e.g. é 20:25:07 they don't count as extra letters. 20:26:08 hmm… so ä is OK in Eodermdrome, but é isn't? 20:27:33 depends in which context you use «é». In French, it is equivalent to a regular «e» (or è, ê and ë for that matter), just with a small pixelly smudge over it. 20:28:02 mnoqy: you are nicely quoted. stop bathrooming with sgeo. hand. hth. 20:28:09 huh what 20:28:27 mnoqy: the /topic PDF includes your quotes now. 20:28:28 «mnoqy» 20:28:52 «“「mnoqy」”» 20:29:01 ah ! 20:31:52 boily: oops i forgot about sending you that thing... i'll look into it in a bit 20:31:52 for now though: chapter 2 name proposal: The Things of Wisdomme 20:33:21 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:33:30 nooodl: doing your quotes! 20:33:50 `pastequotes nooodl 20:33:55 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23957 20:34:06 well, exciting 20:34:26 holy. fungot. 20:34:26 boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there 20:34:38 I even used /no+dl/ for your name match. 20:36:59 wow, good quote nooodl 20:37:06 "thx" 20:37:47 -!- carado_ has joined. 20:39:58 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:40:51 indeed. the linter fears kmc, now that I'm oerjanning. 20:44:20 boily: what, you have duplicate quotes????? 20:45:08 shachaf: yes? and? 20:48:45 @tell oerjan you are quoted. peruse the PDF. 20:48:45 Consider it noted. 20:49:55 Generic Identity Question: are oklopol and oklofok the same person? 20:50:38 yes 20:50:43 in some sense 20:51:11 well, it just happens that neither has quotes. so they can freely be who they are. 20:51:18 what 20:51:20 that can't be right 20:51:24 `quote oklopol 20:51:25 28) i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 30) anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true should put that on my todo list \ 32) i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 43) GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 53) hmm, this is hard \ 5 20:52:02 woops. typo on my end, then. 20:52:08 oklorientation: 32 is the only quote there that I think is made up 20:52:49 Phantom_Hoover: indeed. the okloes have 76 quotes in all. 20:53:12 okos 20:54:28 and I may have missed some Gregor quotes. aurgh. 20:55:01 false alarm. I complete Gregor. 20:55:06 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 20:55:34 quote 32 just doesn't make any sense at all 20:59:07 yes, 28 and 30 i completely believe though 20:59:42 I believe many things that aren't in the quotes. 21:02:48 oklopol: I mathematically hate you. 21:03:04 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:03:14 `lastseen oklopol 21:03:14 oh, wait. it's only a polynomial. 21:03:16 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lastseen: not found 21:03:22 damn 21:03:53 @messages-loud 21:03:53 boily said 15m 8s ago: you are quoted. peruse the PDF. 21:04:49 `seen oklopol 21:04:55 2013-08-28 21:20:53: meaning with, in, by, respectively; i think 21:05:19 that recently? 21:05:26 i haven't noticed him in ages 21:06:21 oklopol: have you become invisible to scots 21:07:00 shachaf: I didn’t get far with the poset functor thing. For A : C, F A : D, if i have a Fo : A → F A for the objects and you give me an (A → B), corresponding to a true (A ≤ B), i’m supposed to give you a (F A → F B), corresponding to a true (F A ≤ F B), is this right? I’m not sure i have enough building blocks for that. 21:08:18 and with that, The Okloes are quoted. 21:08:24 ion: What do you mean by Fo : A → F A? 21:08:29 time to go retrogaming! 21:08:31 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:08:32 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:09:02 Is that → an arrow in one of the categories or some other thing? 21:11:19 shachaf: I read somewhere that a functor F : C → D involves F₀ : A → F A for the objects and F₁ : (A → B) → (F A → F B) for the arrows. I think the C → D, A → F A and F₁ : (…) → (…) arrows were supposed to be function arrows. Or something. Did i read something bad or misinterpret it? 21:12:10 OK, sure, as long as it's clear that that's different from the → arrow inside the category (which is just a ≤ relationship). 21:12:29 hmm… I guess my only remaining hope for Snowflake is to get oerjan or Keymaker or someone interested in it 21:12:34 or just do it all myself 21:12:48 and cry internally at the esocommunity's lack of interest in esolangs 21:12:54 shachaf: Yes 21:13:03 ion: So a functor F has F₀, which maps each object in C to an object in D, and F₁, which "maps" ≤ relationships. 21:13:26 It's pretty much what you said. 21:13:37 Just a function between posets which is order-preserving. 21:14:18 Which means that if x ≤ y then f(x) ≤ f(y) 21:14:27 yeah 21:14:31 @tell Sgeo Is there a name for those monads which are implementable even if bind can call its continuation at most 1 time? <-- i don't know but the STMonadTrans package refers to those without a name. 21:14:31 Consider it noted. 21:14:35 I.e. a monotonic function. 21:14:40 (Monotonically increasing.) 21:15:26 @tell Sgeo or well, i assume it's essentially the same. 21:15:26 Consider it noted. 21:19:15 shachaf: So… am i supposed to be able to make one in general? 21:19:26 What do you mean by "make"? 21:19:53 Let's say we have the poset category N of natural numbers. 21:19:59 I thought the exercise was to define F₁. So far we only have “type signatures”. 21:20:09 Oh. 21:20:35 Well, there's at most one arrow between the object F A and F B. 21:20:42 So you just have to show that it exists. 21:22:42 I’m not sure how to do that. 21:24:11 Well, take any monotonic function from N to N, for example. 21:24:34 You have a "functor" that maps an object x to the object x+1. 21:24:46 And if x≤y, then x+1≤y+1 21:24:51 yeah 21:25:53 Maybe I don't understand what you mean. 21:28:17 The goal was adjunctions or something like that, right? 21:29:19 I had the false impression that i should find a general definition of F₁ for any F : C → D, but i suppose the definition depends on the specific C and D. 21:29:45 Oh, I see. 21:30:01 Well, we have the definition of a functor, which is F₀ and F₁ which follow some laws. 21:30:45 (The laws are trivial when you're talking about posets, by the way.) 21:31:37 But when you're specifying some particular functor, you give a specific definition of F₁. 21:31:50 F₁ id = id; F₁ f ∘ F₁ g = F₁ (f ∘ g); anything else? 21:32:11 Those are the laws. 21:32:16 aye 21:32:47 Well there's a "type law" of sorts, which is that if f : A -> B then F₁ F : F₀ A -> F₀ B 21:33:08 (Usually people don't bother writing F₀ and F₁, just F. Or, in Haskell, they write fmap instead of F₁.) 21:33:29 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 21:34:18 okokokokokokokokokokoko 21:34:20 okokokokokokoko 21:34:32 okoko 21:35:47 * oerjan wonders what those empty squares are 21:35:53 so if i have two say minimal compact dynamical systems X and Y, is there a name for the following: for any morphism \phi : X \times Y \to X, there's a function \psi : X \to X such that \phi(x, y) = \psi(x) for all x, y 21:36:23 what's a morphism 21:36:32 continuous function that commutes with the dynamics 21:36:52 oh, for a moment I thought oerjan was asking what morphisms are in general 21:36:59 and got really confused, because I expected him to know 21:37:05 you'd think 21:37:30 shachaf: Thanks for the explanations. I should start reading Awodey’s book at some point. 21:37:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:37:51 `quote Snowflake 21:37:53 No output. 21:37:54 oklopol: by what you write, phi is independent of y 21:37:54 ion: Awodey has some great videos -- a few hours -- that you could watch. 21:37:55 D: 21:38:00 oerjan: yes 21:38:16 shachaf: Oh, cool. /me googles 21:38:24 currently i say "X is independent from Y" for this 21:38:32 opm" http://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/summerschool/summer12/curriculum.html 21:38:33 was just wondering if there's a name 21:38:38 Er, ion: 21:38:55 i don't remember one 21:38:58 djsvjsg" thanks 21:39:07 it seems like a relatively useful concept for minimal systems; at least it seems to be exactly what is needed for computing the endomorphisms of certain toeplitz subshifts 21:39:23 ok 21:39:31 i gotta sleep 21:39:41 n 21:39:53 Kuolema kuittaa univelat. 21:42:48 -!- conehead has joined. 21:46:55 ion: The next step is natural transformations, I guess! 21:49:52 a natural step 21:50:04 noooo, i missed oklopol again 21:50:25 clearly something eerie is going on 21:50:56 so close and yet so far 21:57:21 ion: Death to reset the sleep-deprived? 21:58:37 Death will pay off the sleep debt 21:58:41 `quote okokoko 21:58:43 No output. 22:04:11 @tell oklopol say okokoko a bit in #esoteric so we can `addquote it 22:04:11 Consider it noted. 22:04:17 hmm, wait 22:04:26 `pastelog okokokoko 22:04:43 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19632 22:04:51 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:05:08 -!- Bike has joined. 22:07:31 "i call rule 34 on rule 110" 22:07:55 -!- solidoodlesuppor has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:08:46 sure, how hard could it be? 22:10:24 right i mean it's turing complete 22:10:59 not everyone has the same taste as turing though 22:11:40 true 22:12:59 hmm, I should do something... tomorrow maybe? 22:13:22 tomorrow: procrastinating 22:13:54 doing things: overrated? or not? 22:14:23 probably! 22:14:40 MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN^WWORLDNEWS: http://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1kw1nd/not_a_conspiracy_anymore/cbtdfzh 22:14:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:15:13 I saw a "bitcoin" credit card today, so this bitcoin thing must be "getting somewhere" 22:15:26 -!- tromp has joined. 22:16:53 `bitcoin' ``credit'' ```card''' 22:16:55 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bitcoin': not found 22:17:18 it may have been a debit card but the distinction is lost on me 22:18:32 fungot: good night? 22:18:32 olsner: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp 22:18:34 was it actually bitcoin-enabled in some way 22:18:41 or did it just like have a bitcoin logo on it 22:19:12 mostly it was connected to a bitcoin exchange and you could sell bitcoins to have the balance directly deposited on your card 22:19:35 i thought bitcoins were useless for up-front transactions 22:19:43 fungot: and I know that's just a bit of the ^style list, stop cheating 22:19:43 olsner: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these, too 22:20:06 Phantom_Hoover: how do you mean 22:20:17 i, myself, will bring an end to all. everything in readiness for fnord! 22:20:53 fnorderdämmerung 22:21:20 die erdämmerung der fnord 22:22:11 kmc: doing things can be nice but not doing things has its own charm 22:22:42 does playing mölkky count as doing things or no 22:22:59 kmc, it has a long-ish transaction delay or something? 22:23:04 yeah 22:23:09 a lot of physical merchants seem to not care though 22:23:13 tricky question 22:23:18 imo i don't care 22:23:48 maybe they use a transaction processor that converts BTC immediately into bilderberg conspiracy fiat currency, and guarantees them against fraud (like cc processors do) 22:24:07 what's the risk again 22:24:27 you buy a croissant, eat it, then cancel the transaction before it goes through> 22:24:45 going via "bilderberg conspiracy fiat currency" sounds quite reliable 22:25:14 btw on the topic of the bilderbergs i would like to once again recommend THEM: adventures with extremists 22:25:55 and are you sure they guarantee *against* fraud, rather than e.g. guaranteeing fraud? (I also idly wonder which one of those is more likely to give your money back) 22:26:06 Phantom_Hoover: the risk is double spend 22:26:21 cancel i guess would mean you double spend also by sending it to yrself 22:27:18 so what, you override the earlier transaction with a second one that sends the money elsewhere? 22:27:56 I think the jist is you send two transactions out at once, and hope the other one gets included in the block chain? 22:28:24 let me tell you exactly how it works 22:28:54 i think i get it now 22:29:09 or maybe you dont care which one gets included 22:29:12 but you got two things 22:29:16 for the price of one 22:29:30 I don't think a miner will accept two transactions coming from the same money? 22:29:30 yeah 22:29:32 like, they'll reject it 22:29:34 sure 22:29:39 but you still have two croissants 22:29:45 ohhhh XD 22:31:08 so merkhants are advised to wait for the netwrk to agree on the transxn 22:31:35 which is not a discrete thing but the longer you wait, the less likely it will change its mind 22:31:59 (it is discrete in units of blocks, which take avg 10 min to make) 22:32:29 but most people dont wanna wait 10 min for a croissont much less 30 22:32:38 so your btc bakery must take this risk 22:32:43 or pay someone else to assume the risk 22:32:57 in which case that third party can also run an instantaneous change to money that is actually useful to your business 22:33:21 you know because your landlord and croissont supplier probably don't accept bitcoin (dupes of the global banker hegemony that they are) 22:33:24 `cat bin/complain 22:33:26 echo "$@" > /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.; 22:33:49 `cat /dev/null 22:33:50 No output. 22:33:57 no complaints, how nice. 22:34:34 kmc, are you drunk or are your hands badly injured 22:35:05 painting nails 22:35:17 so, both? 22:35:25 I think that's neither 22:35:28 `run ln -s /dev/null complaints 22:35:31 unless he's done smoething very very wrong with acetone 22:35:32 No output. 22:35:34 dronk on ethyl acetate fumes 22:35:58 `run echo 'wc -l complaints' > bin/complaints; chmod +x bin/complaints 22:36:02 No output. 22:36:03 `complaints 22:36:04 0 complaints 22:37:31 nice 22:37:41 kmc, oh good (i just asked in case your hands were too badly injured to alert the emergency services) 22:38:16 `run sed -i 's#/dev/null#complaints#' bin/complain 22:38:19 in which case you would call for me 0818 999 88911 9119725 3 22:38:20 No output. 22:38:29 `run sed -i 's/>/>>/' bin/complain 22:38:33 No output. 22:38:38 i think these days the preferred way to alert the police is twitter 22:38:59 `run sed -i 's/;$//' bin/complain 22:39:00 do they actually notice 22:39:03 No output. 22:39:07 shachaf: i don't think that will handle the complaits already made. i suggest modifying the `list method. 22:39:14 *+n 22:39:18 oerjan: Hmm? 22:39:23 It handles them very well. 22:39:36 `echo bin/complain 22:39:37 bin/complain 22:39:42 `cat bin/complain 22:39:43 echo "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you. 22:39:48 oh 22:39:59 oerjan: Alternatively: I suggest that you file that as a complaint. 22:40:10 nah. 22:40:25 `complain oerjan won't do his complaint duty 22:40:26 Complaint filed. Thank you. 22:40:28 `complaints 22:40:29 0 complaints 22:41:43 `run echo 'See misspellings of croissant' >wisdom/'croissont supplier' 22:41:47 No output. 22:52:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v myndzi. 22:52:55 can't have HackEgo and myndzi have different length flags. or wait... 22:53:20 it'll be broken anyway. 22:53:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre. 22:59:25 can we +q myndzi instead 22:59:26 if myndzi has voice, i demand voice! \o/ 22:59:26 | 22:59:26 |\ 23:03:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v myndzi. 23:03:37 and we can't have _that_. 23:03:56 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 23:06:08 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:08:18 -!- Bike has joined. 23:09:05 boily: yes <-- i believe the " , please" makes your answer incorrect unless you actually do it 23:10:00 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:10:10 Even if you use it zzo38-style? 23:10:37 ERM 23:10:40 NOT SURE 23:11:24 `log zzo38>.*please 23:11:36 `log zzo38>.*, please.?$ 23:11:51 2011-01-04.txt:20:30:31: cheater99: Hay you! Stop cheating, please! 23:11:51 2011-04-18.txt:04:32:11: Maybe submit the report and then they can correct it please. 23:12:31 `log zzo38>.*, please.?$ 23:12:31 `log zzo38>.*, please.?$ 23:12:31 `log zzo38>.*, please.?$ 23:12:39 2011-10-09.txt:04:06:50: Unicode works for some things, but you should not always use it, please. 23:12:39 2013-03-12.txt:06:10:35: If you can't use geosynchronous orbits for triangulation, then it would be the idea that if you have satellites that need triangulation, remember to don't make them geosynchronous, please. 23:12:40 2011-04-10.txt:01:56:49: O, go drink hydroxic acid, please. 23:12:51 Hm. 23:13:01 shachaf: I THINK YOUR THEORY IS BADLY SUPPORTED 23:13:04 is that zzo lashing out in anger 23:13:12 because if so... 23:13:21 `log zzo38>.* please\?$ 23:13:22 `log zzo38>.* please\?$ 23:13:22 `log zzo38>.* please\?$ 23:13:29 2011-03-13.txt:05:29:13: oerjan: Can you ask elliott to correct it please? 23:13:29 2010-04-04.txt:07:17:02: Quadrescence: Why do you think that, please? 23:13:30 2011-12-20.txt:22:11:21: Not exactly what it does? Can you elaborate on that please? 23:13:48 `log zzo38>.* please\?$ 23:13:48 `log zzo38>.* please\?$ 23:13:52 Hm. 23:13:52 2012-03-02.txt:08:08:11: Do you have better idea please? 23:13:53 2013-03-30.txt:03:20:12: pikhq: Does it depend on how it is generated? Can you give details please? 23:14:32 shachaf: give up already. or it least use `pastelogs 23:14:45 `pastelogs zzo38>.* please\?$ 23:15:00 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24912 23:15:13 quadrescence used to be in here? 23:15:21 `pastelogs zzo38>.* please.?$ 23:15:35 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20462 23:15:47 Bike: Do you know them from #lisp? 23:15:54 and a few other places, yes 23:16:20 *at 23:20:59 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 23:32:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:35:51 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:29 -!- augur has joined. 23:36:51 shachaf: Let me verify something: in the category of matrices with multiplication, are the objects natural numbers corresponding to matrix dimensions? 23:37:02 Yep. 23:37:06 Ok, thanks 23:37:09 WHO was bathrooming with me?!?!? 23:37:36 ion: There's another way to look at that category: The objects are R^n for natural numbers n, and the arrows are linear maps. 23:38:32 Sgeo: the CIA 23:39:59 sgeo: Why would the World Health Organization do that? 23:40:34 shachaf: Hmm, interesting. 23:41:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:41:22 -!- Bike_ has joined. 23:43:31 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:43:34 waht 23:45:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:46:08 kmc: no, baht 23:47:13 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:55:37 -!- Bike has joined.