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00:09:40 <Sgeo> help i seem to be obsessed with tcl again why oh why
00:10:38 <oerjan> just take some heroin to mask it
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00:12:18 <Sgeo> `olist 917 blah blah i'm sure someone olisted first
00:13:16 <Sgeo> I seem to be becoming a zero-width space conservationist, I only used one
00:14:40 <oerjan> @ask Phantom_Hoover wtf happens here http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/130904.html
00:19:11 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
00:19:21 <oerjan> it says _true_ Scotsman, Phantom_Hoover
00:19:37 <kmc> so glad that the nvidia binary OpenGL drivers for Linux make heavy use of self modifying code
00:21:19 <Fiora> what do they use it for?
00:21:20 <kmc> @tell Koen_ I think && and || are just special cased in the language, as in most languages
00:21:25 <kmc> Fiora: I don't even know...
00:21:56 <oerjan> the tales of flaco just keep getting taller.
00:22:17 <kmc> (||);; looks like an emoticon
00:23:02 <Fiora> um, if I might ask where did this come up o_O
00:23:21 <kmc> the self modifying code?
00:23:34 <kmc> trying to figure out why my program is crashing in the opengl library
00:23:56 <kmc> (the answer turns out to be, calling OpenGL functions from a thread other than the one which set up OpenGL, which is a pretty normal answer really)
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00:23:57 <Fiora> couldn't it just be like, a JIT of some sort, like a shader compiler?
00:24:01 <kmc> (but the getting there is pretty weird)
00:24:51 <Sgeo> `pbflist because Phantom_Hoover said to
00:25:00 <Sgeo> And not because of actual pbf
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00:26:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: someone should remove Sgeo's zero-width spaces before he hurts someone
00:27:07 <Sgeo> `pbflist for accuracy
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00:52:24 <oerjan> would you like to be separated from him *whistles innocently*
00:54:21 <oerjan> elliott: why you're right, it _is_ addictive!
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01:39:36 <oerjan> ooh, Nthern is back on the wiki.
01:39:53 <oerjan> the only other person who managed to write something in ///, as i recall :)
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01:56:12 <madbr> I'm starting to think that out of order execution is just a really elaborate prefetch scheme
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02:33:47 <madbr> like, is there any point to out of order execution, other than dealing with unoptimized code and trying to hide cache misses?
02:36:08 <madbr> (and having too few registers on x86)
02:42:42 <madbr> if you had an optimal architecture and no cache misses, would out-of-order be useless?
02:45:08 <Bike> are those reasonable assumptions, though
02:46:07 <madbr> well, for optimal architecture IMHO even the stupid traditional 32 register MIPS would fit
02:46:33 <madbr> like, it probably can't do 10 instructions per cycle, but no architecture can do that
02:47:57 <Bike> i mean, no cache misses/"unoptimized code"
02:48:26 <madbr> no cache misses obviously isn't very "real world" :3
02:49:00 <madbr> unoptimized code I'm not too sure about
02:49:03 <Bike> and i mean isn't there a longstanding debate or whatever about whether compilers should be expected to make good code versus the processor working things out
02:49:37 <madbr> I expect most compilers nowaday turn everything into SSA form
02:50:04 <madbr> and can do at least a minimum amount of reordering
02:50:47 <madbr> and by "most compliers" I really mean msvc, llvm and gcc
02:51:46 <madbr> I don't expect compilers to be able to do enough reordering to keep a 10-issue cpu busy
02:51:55 <madbr> but a 2 or 3 issue cpu sounds reasonable
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02:55:29 <madbr> like, multiplications are high latency so they require a lot of shuffling, but usually they happen in stuff like dsp and gfx code that's usually math heavy anyways
02:57:46 <madbr> load/store/jump code is mostly low latency ops, though it has less math ops that you can shuffle around... then again if it has unavoidable dependency chains, it's going to have unavoidable dependency chains on a pentium 2 too
02:58:35 <madbr> stuff like file compression and string parsing
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03:51:47 <Sgeo> TCL sometimes reminds me of functional reactive programming in... some ways
03:52:02 <Sgeo> Or, at least, has a nice ability to set something like that up
03:55:05 <Sgeo> Ooh, I should implement Deadfish in Tcl
03:55:14 <Sgeo> I have an utterly crazy idea of how to implement it
04:03:48 <Sgeo> Well, ok, not C++ templates crazy
04:08:10 <Sgeo> Deadfish... is not very well specified, is it. The page implies that something is a vagriety of the C implementation, then says to check against its math results to see that that thing is there
04:15:39 <oerjan> Sgeo: the joke is that we follow the C implementation faithfully especially in those aspects which show its author was not very good at programming.
04:16:11 <Sgeo> Maybe I should look at the C impl. then
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04:19:41 <oerjan> also, i consider the python one within acceptable variation, it was written by the same author.
04:23:38 <Sgeo> I feel like my code in generally isn't generally much cleaner
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04:24:39 <Bike> i'm impressed at the apl implementation, but i feel it could probably be optimized
04:24:51 <Sgeo> Um. Except I'd try to avoid recursive loops in non-TCOed languages
04:26:27 <Sgeo> err, that -1 check is useless, isn't it.
04:26:43 <Bike> "unsigned int x; /* make a positive integer and call it x */" man, this is some good stuff.
04:26:52 <Bike> maybe you're useless, sgeo
04:27:11 <shachaf> why are you doing the thing where you insult people
04:27:25 <Sgeo> It's an unsigned int, does C convert the -1 to MAXINT or whatever -1 underflows into?
04:27:30 <Bike> congenital condition.
04:27:48 <Bike> congenial condition also
04:28:07 <Bike> wow good scanf.
04:28:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: well decrementing 0 gives 0, is what we've used. i assume we tried it out by running the C implementation at some point.
04:29:18 <Sgeo> erk http://ideone.com/uQDIhD
04:29:49 <oerjan> the exact bitsize isn't among the things we keep slavishly to. (some of my esolang implementations use unary.)
04:30:49 <Sgeo> Why doesn't it die? Does scanf not stop and wait for input?
04:31:11 <Sgeo> Or, maybe IdeOne is just broken
04:33:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: don't you give all input up front in IdeOne?
04:33:27 <oerjan> in any case, yes the interpreter has no eof checking.
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04:33:54 <oerjan> oh wait, it shouldn't print the 0 ...
04:34:22 <Sgeo> All I wanted to do was compile i d s and o into ;i; ;d; ;s; ;o; and eval it
04:34:45 <oerjan> well, my screen is full of > stuff which does not look promising.
04:35:21 <Sgeo> oerjan: on IdeOne? Or actually compiling locally?
04:37:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: locally on nvg it keeps prompting after any number of ^D (for eof)
04:38:11 <Sgeo> Nordic Veteran Gamers
04:38:13 <oerjan> the linux server i'm running irssi from, and email
04:38:41 <oerjan> the old university computer club.
04:39:22 <oerjan> also my webpage is there. and i already had deadfish downloaded.
04:47:38 <oerjan> oh darn it wasn't the correct version, it has a much weirder scanf, no wonder it behaved weirdly.
04:48:45 <oerjan> my downloaded version has scanf("%c%*[^\n]%*1[\n]",&usrinput);
04:50:23 <oerjan> probably some attempt at reading only one command per line, i guess. (and it doesn't work :P)
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05:35:54 <Sgeo> Is there a name for those monads which are implementable even if bind can call its continuation at most 1 time?
05:36:03 <Sgeo> For any particular continuation it's given
05:36:16 <Sgeo> e.g. Maybe, Identity, and not List
05:46:07 <Sgeo> I hate Reddit sometimes http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1ltegu/97_polled_online_want_under_god_removed_from/
05:48:17 <olsner> I think the fashionable thing is to hate reddit all the time
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06:37:22 <shachaf> ion: You know the whole (s,) -| (s ->) adjunction business and the way you get State from that?
06:38:01 <ion> shachaf: No. I’m not familiar with the -| symbol either, or with the word adjunction for that matter. :-P
06:38:21 <ion> (in this context)
06:39:00 <shachaf> Well, in Haskell in particular, an adjunction is a relationship between two functors F and G, written F -| G, such that (F a -> b) ~~ (a -> G b)
06:39:59 <Sgeo> Are there any non-boring monads that meet the criterion I mentioned?
06:40:19 <Sgeo> Of bind only being able to use the callback it's given at most once?
06:41:00 <shachaf> ion: It has lots of good properties, including that G . F is a monad and F . G is a comonad.
06:43:49 <ion> shachaf: I see.
06:44:33 <shachaf> ion: It comes with two operations, eta :: a -> G (F a) and eps :: F (G a) -> a
06:44:35 <ion> Can you give an example of an adjunction other than (s,) -| (s ->)?
06:44:52 <shachaf> With the laws fmap eps . eta = id, and eps . fmap eta = id
06:45:19 <shachaf> ion: Unfortunately it's hard in Haskell. :-(
06:45:39 <shachaf> Most interesting adjunctions involve functors that aren't endofunctors.
06:46:17 <ion> Could you give an example of one of those?
06:47:13 <shachaf> Well, do you know abou the category Mon of monoids/monoid homomorphisms?
06:48:23 <shachaf> (Do you know about categories and functors in general?)
06:49:15 <ion> Nope. I have Awodey’s book in my reading queue.
06:49:27 <ion> and Spivak’s
06:50:03 <shachaf> Oh, _Category Theory for Scientists_?
06:51:07 <shachaf> Hm. I don't know much about it.
06:51:23 <shachaf> Anyway, categories are so easy.
06:52:21 <ion> I’m sure i’ll love them.
06:53:02 <shachaf> Well, you know Category in Haskell, right? It's just that.
06:54:55 <shachaf> And do you know what a functor is between categories?
06:57:27 <ion> No. It’s not immediately obvious to me how to make that happen with the functor familiar to me (which is, i guess, really an endofunctor).
06:58:31 <shachaf> OK, so a category is a thing with a bunch of arrows, which can be composed.
06:59:07 <shachaf> To figure out which arrows can be composed, you have the objects. You can only compose two arrows if their objects match.
06:59:29 <shachaf> (So each arrow has a "type".)
06:59:42 <shachaf> And there are also identity arrows, one for each object.
07:00:40 <shachaf> A functor F from C to D maps each arrow "a" in C to an arrow "F a" in D, such that F id = id, and F f . F g = F (f . g)
07:00:46 <shachaf> Normally we write F as fmap in Haskell.
07:01:45 <shachaf> It also maps objects, but once you've specified how you're mapping the arrows, you can figure out the object mapping from that.
07:02:01 <shachaf> Hmm, I'm being confusing, maybe because it's midnight?
07:02:20 <shachaf> Do you see how this corresponds to the regular Haskell Functor?
07:02:44 <ion> Does the “endo” mean that C = D?
07:03:20 <shachaf> It maps Haskell arrows to Haskell arrows -- e.g. ord :: Char -> Int to fmap ord :: F Char -> F Int -- with the laws I mentioned above.
07:03:42 <ion> I guess i see it. What’s an example of C,D where C ≠ D?
07:03:44 <shachaf> It also maps objects to objects, e.g. the type Char to the type F Char.
07:03:59 <shachaf> Maybe we should've had a bunch more examples of categories first.
07:05:23 <shachaf> Maybe I'm spamming the channel...
07:05:51 <ion> It doesn’t seem like there’s other discussion going on at the moment.
07:06:06 <shachaf> Maybe that's because of me!
07:06:18 <shachaf> OK, so let's go back to categories and give some examples.
07:06:43 <shachaf> And maybe a proper definition? Did we ever have one?
07:08:17 <ion> I don’t think so, apart from “like Data.Category.Category”
07:08:50 <shachaf> Hmm, I think I meant Control.Category, although data-category's definition is generally much better.
07:09:49 <shachaf> OK, let's start with something else. You know what a monoid is, right? A collection of things, which can be "multiplied" with each other, such that multiplication is associative and has an identity?
07:10:16 <ion> Sorry, i meant Control.Category.Category
07:10:55 <shachaf> E.g. ℕ with + and 0, ℕ with * and 1, String with (++) and "", and so on.
07:11:05 <shachaf> OK, so you know how matrices work, too, right?
07:11:31 <shachaf> (Or maybe not. I certainly don't.)
07:12:14 <ion> More or less. I always have to look up things like how to calculate a determinant etc.
07:12:27 <shachaf> thanks for the reminder, HackEgo
07:12:31 <shachaf> But e.g. matrix multiplication?
07:13:00 <shachaf> Matrices and matrix multiplication are funny because they're almost like a monoid but not quite.
07:13:17 <shachaf> Because you can't multiply any two matrices, you can only do it if they match.
07:13:53 <shachaf> So you have (*) :: M i j -> M j k -> M i k, and you have id :: M i i for any i.
07:14:21 <fizzie> shachaf: I see you haven't been keeping up with the news: https://collectivelyunconscious.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/matrix-dimensions-reach-agreement-at-peace-summit/
07:14:51 <shachaf> So that's how categories work in general. You have a multiplication operation but it only works for things that match.
07:15:11 <ion> Ok, matrices are a nice example.
07:15:35 <shachaf> So, for a category C, you have, uh...
07:16:53 <shachaf> A collection of arrows, where each arrow is has a domain and codomain (source and taget) object, written as e.g. f : A -> B
07:17:50 <shachaf> A composition operation, (.), which can compose two matching arrows. I.e. for any two arrows f : A -> B, g : B -> C, you can write g . f : A -> C
07:18:48 <shachaf> For every object A, you have an identity arrow, id : A -> A, such that f . id = f, id . f = f
07:19:00 <shachaf> (Sometimes you specify which object you're talking about by writing e.g. id_A)
07:19:12 <shachaf> And composition is associative, so (f . g) . h = f . (g . h)
07:28:53 <ion> shachaf: I was thinking about whether matrix transposition would be a valid functor from M i j to M j i, but that would violate the F f . F g = F (f . g) rule. (The rule for this would be F f . F g = F (g . f), i think.)
07:29:10 <ion> shachaf: Yeah, makes sense.
07:30:29 <shachaf> OK, that kind of functor exists too, and it even turns out to be the same kind of functor.
07:31:06 <shachaf> Anyway, we should have some examples.
07:31:50 <shachaf> So there's the matrix example.
07:32:03 <shachaf> Also, a monoid is the same thing as a category with one object. Do you see why?
07:33:57 <ion> The single object is the type of the monoid?
07:34:35 <ion> (*) :: a -> a -> a always
07:34:55 <shachaf> Well, not "the type of the monoid"
07:35:02 <shachaf> The object can be anything.
07:35:40 <shachaf> Each arrow corresponds to an element of the monoid. The object is just there so the arrows can have a domain/codomain.
07:35:44 <ion> Yeah… Still stuck in the familiar thinking. :-)
07:36:26 <shachaf> Another popular simple example is a partially-ordered set. You know those?
07:41:27 <ion> Reading the Wikipedia page… Something with (≤) :: a -> a -> Maybe Bool?
07:41:54 <shachaf> Well, a relation, but you can think of it that way.
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07:42:37 <shachaf> A poset is a set along with a relation ≤, with the three properties listed in that page you're probably reading right now.
07:47:22 <ion> Ok, i guess i get it. The set of subsets ordered by inclusion is a good example.
07:48:56 <ion> Natural numbers ordered by divisibility, too.
07:49:26 <shachaf> So you can look at any poset as a category, where the objects are the elements of the set, and you have an arrow from A to B iff A ≤ B
07:49:39 <shachaf> Otherwise you have no arrows.
07:49:50 <shachaf> Note that you have at most one arrow between any two objects this way.
07:51:23 <ion> I take it the identity arrow corresponds to reflexivity and composition corresponds to transitivity?
07:52:02 <ion> Ok, i guess i get it.
07:52:37 <shachaf> (There's no category axiom that corresponds to antisymmetry, because it's still a category even without that.)
07:53:04 <shachaf> (I guess you could say that a poset is skeletal or something? Doesn't matter.)
07:53:30 <shachaf> So another category is one where the arrows are functions and the objects are sets.
07:53:34 <shachaf> Or Haskell types, for that matter.
07:54:00 <shachaf> (We usually pretend that Haskell is total when we say that, to make life easy.)
07:55:12 <shachaf> And then you have lots of other categories for lots of other things you might want to talk about.
07:55:34 <shachaf> E.g. you have a category where the objects are monoids and the arrows are monoid homomorphisms.
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07:55:55 <shachaf> (A monoid homomorphism is a function f between monoids where f(1) = 1 and f(a)*f(b) = f(a*b).)
07:55:59 <shachaf> (That might look familiar!)
07:58:32 * ion makes notes
07:59:34 <shachaf> There are also very small categories, like the category 0 with no objects and no arrows, the category 1 with one object and one arrow, and various other ones.
08:01:07 <shachaf> Oh, for any category, there's its "opposite category".
08:01:17 <shachaf> Which is pretty much the same thing except the arrows are backwards.
08:01:55 <shachaf> So in the category Hask^op, an arrow from A to B is a Haskell function from B to A.
08:03:37 <shachaf> Does the definition of functor make sense with all of these?
08:03:53 <shachaf> What would a functor between two posets be?
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08:09:17 <shachaf> (There are also a bunch of boring ways to make categories, like a category where the only arrows that exist are identity arrows, but who cares about those.)
08:10:58 <ion> I just finished writing notes about everything up to now. Good night, and thanks a lot. I’ll think about the question about a functor between two posets.
08:11:44 <shachaf> Oh, if you're here you can probably figure it out.
08:12:19 <shachaf> Just give the definition of a functor, and replace "an arrow from A to B" with "we know that A ≤ B".
08:12:39 <shachaf> (You don't care *which* arrow because there's at most one.)
08:14:49 <ion> I’m a bit too tired to concentrate as well, i’ll watch a TV show episode or two with a friend and get some sleep. I’ll continue from this point at a later time.
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12:01:12 <boily> good diæ̈resis morning! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/IMAG0024.jpg
12:01:28 <boily> (picture taken Wednesday around 6pm UTC-4)
12:02:15 <boily> @tell tswett no idea. what are you referring to?
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12:17:46 <FireFly> It's a swedish word that happens to contain all of our letters with diacritics
12:17:58 <FireFly> sometimes used to test for encoding issues
12:21:25 <fizzie> FireFly: Now you've made me hungry.
12:22:01 <fizzie> (I got two wisdom teeth extracted the other day, eating has been a bit tricky lately.)
12:25:41 * boily remembers being on narcotics when he had his teeth disappear into a dentist
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12:31:30 <boily> fizzie: which one did you have removed?
12:33:52 <fizzie> I also had both right ones done before the summer.
12:36:29 <boily> weird pattern, but it sounds more pragmatic than "top two" then "bottom two".
12:36:49 <boily> the top procedure is like just about anything else. a little hurt, but nothing more.
12:36:58 <boily> but the bottom two... ooooooh... *shudders*
12:37:47 <fizzie> The idea was that I'd still have one side of the mouth to chew with.
12:38:09 <fizzie> Except the other side's so swollen I'd just be biting my cheek the whole time. But I guess it'll subside.
12:43:13 <boily> mom's blender was my best friend during those days. liquefied puréed veggies in the morning, at lunch, at night. room temperature.
12:44:52 <fizzie> That might have been a good idea.
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13:25:38 <Roujo> Today is Donut-day
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13:32:55 <boily> the nearest Tim is 650 m away. I can donut. all is not lost!
13:35:56 <Roujo> I am the Donut Bringer at my workplace
13:37:09 <boily> spoken as a true Canadian.
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13:59:47 <Roujo> AND HERE WE GO AGAIN
14:00:06 <Roujo> Canada Cup 2013, "I can't maintain a connection to save my life" edition
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14:04:11 <Roujo> That has to be some kind of record
14:04:34 <Roujo> I looked away from the window for *two* minutes
14:04:43 <Roujo> And he came and went during that time
14:04:55 <elliott> technically it was two minutes and two seconds
14:05:13 <Roujo> Well, probably three for me
14:05:14 <boily> I hear some amateur radio enthusiasts can achieve subsecond connections with only 500 mW rigs.
14:07:52 <mnoqy> imagine walking up to your friends or calling on a phone and saying "hello" and they just ignore you and you wait for two whole minutes and they don't even acknowledge your presence
14:09:35 <Roujo> Imagine putting up a note on a billboard at a workplace saying "hello" and people keep working for two whole minutes and they don't even acknowledge your presence =P
14:10:02 <Roujo> If he had pinged me, I'd have answered quickly
14:10:19 <mnoqy> yes the joke is that thinking about irc like that is horribly wrong but solain seems to do it anyway
14:10:28 <Roujo> I keep seeing overlap in channels I'm in on different networks. It's fun.
14:10:34 <boily> analphabillboardetism is a major problem, rampant in developed countries.
14:10:39 <Roujo> mnoqy: Most IRC newbies are like that.
14:11:26 <Roujo> "Hello, I came to the dedicated help channel for a project, and there are like 15 ops in here that can probably help me with my easily googlable problem, can anyone help me?"
14:11:31 <Roujo> *waits 30 seconds*
14:14:04 <boily> or, "hey, I have this problem" *32 seconds* "solved it myself. kthxbye!"
14:16:37 <fizzie> Sometimes there's an insult before the quit.
14:16:50 <fizzie> Like, "well, this was a waste of time *quits*".
14:27:45 <Roujo> Ah, yes. The old ragequit variation: cause rage, then quit
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15:31:20 <boily> I like norwegian music. http://youtu.be/PaEnaoydUUo?list=PLfNe3nGQENtP3VCn1t1pybju9ffSPBohU
15:36:51 <Roujo> And norwegian music love you~~
15:37:38 <itsy> That's the second time someone's mentioned Ylvis today. I hadn't heard of them before...
15:38:32 <boily> norway always happen at least twice.
15:38:50 <Roujo> `quote <boily> norway always happen at least twice.
15:39:00 <Roujo> `quoteadd <boily> norway always happen at least twice.
15:39:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteadd: not found
15:39:14 <Roujo> `complain This is broken, please fix
15:39:15 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
15:39:29 <boily> Roujo: have you tried quoting it off and on again?
15:44:58 <boily> I need a shirt with “once, twice, thrice, fouice...” just to disgust English majors who pass by.
15:45:24 <boily> like, wander around McGill.
15:47:27 <Roujo> If you're not dead by then, you should probably become a survivorman or something
15:52:24 <boily> it's easier to get swallowed by a random pothole than to get beaten to death by a university student here...
15:53:58 <Roujo> Unless you're pro-tuition raise
15:57:10 <boily> either you get 728ed, or smashed by a gratteux de guitare. if I'm about to go out, then I'll do it with style and total grammar disregard.
15:57:54 <boily> (728: matricule of a brutish policewoman who got embroiled in unlawful beatings and stuff.)
15:58:10 <boily> («gratteux de guitare»: one of the many epithets she attributed to the protesting students.)
15:58:44 <boily> (total grammar disregard: me I'm agree with grammar of angliche.)
16:03:22 -!- Rafajafar has joined.
16:04:02 <Rafajafar> hi guys, I remember meeting some brilliant folks in here once. Maybe you can help. I have a very specific problem and am looking for a solution that might already exist
16:04:16 <Rafajafar> I'm searching for a solution that can do sliding-window searches on collections of ordered data. Think if you've got fingerprints for each frame of a movie: f(1), f(2)... f(n) and you intercepted a subclip from that movie and have it's finger prints s(1), s(2)...s(n)
16:04:32 <Rafajafar> now I could do this in any language, really, but I need something that will index and do a fuzzy search
16:04:46 -!- k_k_k has joined.
16:04:53 <Rafajafar> ou needed a specific comparison function to compare one fingerprint to another
16:05:17 <Rafajafar> and that function is essentially a euclidean distance function with a tolerance threshold
16:05:42 <Rafajafar> do you guys know of any language that would be primo for that, OR, do you know of an esoteric data storage system for such a sliding-window database
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16:20:36 <ais523> elliott: you forgot to stealth your ops
16:20:50 <ais523> also, I've been creating an esolang :)
16:20:59 <ais523> it's probably my second-best esolang ever, after Underload
16:21:04 <ais523> err, that exists, I mean
16:21:30 <elliott> ais523: I didn't get a reply on my offer to kick someone!
16:21:33 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
16:21:47 <ais523> elliott: it's easy to forget, I've been yelled at in other channels for that :)
16:22:29 <ais523> sadly, I don't have an impl or any programs yet; I was considering holding off on releasing it until I had some
16:23:23 <ais523> "Snowflake is a reversible, self-modifying, data-parallel esoteric programming language created by User:ais523 in 2013."
16:23:27 <ais523> first line of the wiki article I'm writing atm
16:23:41 <ais523> also the "self-modifying" is more literal than normal
16:23:46 -!- Rafajafar has left.
16:23:51 <ais523> executing Snowflake programs actually alters the interpreter
16:24:44 <ais523> (this also makes it impossible to compile; if you had a compiler, you could compile a program, then delete the compiler, then executing the program would leave you with no implementation to modify)
16:25:01 <elliott> I'm glad you're still insane.
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16:26:15 <ais523> at one point during its development, a hello world program would likely need strong AI
16:26:18 <ais523> but I toned it down a bit
16:26:52 <ais523> completely independent of all the self-modification stuff, it also has a fun set of primitives
16:26:55 -!- zt has joined.
16:27:13 <ais523> it's stack-based, but doesn't really have any of the usual primitives
16:27:19 <ais523> it almost has () from Underload, except sometimes not
16:27:34 <ais523> but that's about it if you wanted something sane
16:27:51 <ais523> oh, it also almost has cons
16:28:41 -!- zt has quit (Client Quit).
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16:32:22 <ais523> incidentally, I also had another language idea
16:32:48 <ais523> basically, it looks for the eight most commonly occurring repeated patterns in the source, and does some statistical analysis
16:32:58 <ais523> then interprets them as BF instructions and execute
16:33:13 <ais523> it'd save everyone time if we had an interp for all these pointless BF derivatives preëmptively
16:34:30 <Roujo> ais523: Why did people yell at you because you had your op-hat on?
16:34:35 <ais523> actually, you could get like 99% accuracy just by printing "Hello world" if the program couldn't be recognised
16:34:47 <ais523> Roujo: it's not so much yelling, it's more just reminding people to take it off again
16:34:56 <ais523> you don't want everything you say to be perceived as official
16:35:05 <ais523> it's like trying to play Agora entirely on a-b, but worse
16:35:54 <Roujo> Levels the talking field, true
16:36:34 <ais523> the other thing is that people joining a channel with visible ops typically assume that there's a troll attack going on /right now/
16:36:36 <Roujo> I'm used to talking in channels where everyone is +o, so I didn't get why =P
16:37:14 <ais523> that's unlikely to happen here; elliott has little tolerance for known troublemakers, and unknown troublemakers are normally much too fun to toy with to actually use op powers on them
16:38:14 <ais523> also, re the topic: "peöple"?
16:38:22 <ais523> I can pronounce that but it doesn't seem to be a real word
16:38:52 <ais523> also, is there any particular reason why LaTeX?
16:39:01 <ais523> (or at least, LaTeX styling and fonts)
16:41:05 <ais523> oh right, someone's just added a bunch of diaereses even where they don't apply :(
16:41:42 <ais523> also I dislike the way backquote is rendered
16:42:20 <ais523> who should I send these comments to, anyway? I instantly assumed Gregor was responsible, but browsing through the reasons behind this, I can't think of any reason why he would be
16:42:30 <ais523> (also the fact that it's on dropbox not codu implies it's likely someone else)
16:43:01 <fizzie> ais523: The wisdom PDF is boily's work, unless I misremember.
16:43:03 <mnoqy> Alexandre Boily, i'd guess
16:43:56 <ais523> also it didn't render the mojibake properly
16:44:01 <HackEgo> mojibake _ÌÌÌ°_ÌÌÍÍ̦̻ͬÌÍÌÌÍ¡_ͧÍÌÍÌ_ÍÍÍͧÍÌÌ̯Í̬̬̦̯_ÌÌÌͨÌÌ´Í
16:44:15 <ais523> err, yes it did, the entry is either broken or not really like any mojibake I've ever seen
16:44:40 <fizzie> The backtick is very confusing, yes, I think someone already complained about it?
16:45:52 <ais523> also, I'm disappointed that nobody's talking about Snowflake :(
16:46:40 <elliott> you didn't tell us you finished the article!
16:47:00 <ais523> it's a complex language
16:47:05 <ais523> thus why I don't have an interp yet
16:47:18 <ais523> btw, if you write a Snowflake interp, I strongly recommend keeping a backup
16:47:43 <ais523> also, `? ursala is great
16:47:47 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
16:47:52 <elliott> ais523: polarised nested lists is an oklopolism, by the way
16:48:00 <ais523> elliott: good to hear it
16:48:13 <elliott> he had a beautiful language based around them that I forget the details of
16:48:23 <ais523> it probably wasn't Snowflake
16:48:29 <ais523> but it's a natural way to do reversibility
16:48:45 <ais523> because you can use a polarity flip to easily handle error conditions in a reversible way
16:49:05 <Roujo> `complain The backtick doesn't render right
16:49:06 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:49:35 <elliott> I think it used the syntax <...> for positive lists and >...< for negative ones
16:49:39 <elliott> using whitespace to disambiguate
16:49:42 <ais523> oh no, this PDF has the QDB appended
16:49:46 <ais523> I have to stop reading for safety reasons
16:49:49 <elliott> so you could say <>< <>< <>> ><>
16:49:53 <ais523> last time I laughed so much I had trouble breathing
16:50:00 <ais523> elliott: how very INTERcAL
16:50:46 <elliott> `complain missing line break before quote 81!!
16:50:47 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:52:12 <elliott> `complain also 95 and probably others...
16:52:14 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:52:34 <ais523> btw, did anyone see this year's ICFP contest? I saw it late so didn't participate, but it reminded me a lot of oklopol-Clue
16:52:51 <Roujo> ais523: The "guess the function" one?
16:53:06 <Roujo> Yeah, it sounded interesting
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16:53:29 <Roujo> <ais523> also, is there any particular reason why LaTeX?
16:53:39 <Roujo> Probably because boily really likes LaTeX
16:53:48 <ais523> LaTeX makes pretty much everything look academic
16:53:57 <ais523> in the same way that Latin makes pretty much anything look profound
16:54:19 <Roujo> `complain (By the way, what with the pineapples?)
16:54:21 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
16:55:07 <ais523> it's like the slices of lime, but more LaTeX
16:55:21 <HackEgo> Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d'informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l'autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
16:55:23 <HackEgo> echo $0- >> /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
16:55:54 <Roujo> Yeah, isn't it great?
16:55:55 <shachaf> Hmm, it should echo $@ instead
16:56:02 <ais523> shachaf: the implementation hardly matters, because the logs are greppable
16:56:05 <ais523> same way that the list works
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16:56:19 <mnoqy> i see a pretty obvious optimization to `complain
16:56:22 <Roujo> shachaf: Ah, possible. I'm not all that good at bash =P
16:56:31 <ais523> I've actually started doing something similar in other channels
16:56:46 <Roujo> shachaf: >I'm not all that good at bash
16:56:49 <Roujo> I thought it did something
16:56:59 <ais523> it does, it adds a hyphen to the end of the message
16:57:01 <Roujo> I didn't have access to a term to confirm
16:57:08 <Roujo> I thought it did something *more*
16:57:16 <mnoqy> good thing it doesn't matter
16:57:22 <Roujo> Which would explain why my other script didn't work >_>
16:57:22 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/\$0-/"$@"/' bin/complain
16:57:23 <ais523> so anyway, the /dev/null is filling up with copies of "bash-" atm
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16:57:49 <ais523> shachaf: I'm trying to figure out why you felt the need to correctly handle whitespace in arguments there
16:57:58 <ais523> it doesn't matter for at least two independent reasons
16:58:09 <ais523> (echo adds space between its arguments, and the output's going to /dev/null anyway)
16:58:49 <shachaf> ais523: I feel the need to use correct idioms by default when possible.
16:58:53 <ais523> I guess a habit that quotes arguments correctly is a good habit to have
16:59:01 <shachaf> Rather than think "should I use quotes here or " -- yes, that.
16:59:06 <Roujo> `run cat bin/complain
16:59:08 <HackEgo> echo "$@" >> /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
16:59:10 <shachaf> Except $@ is very special and gets quoted in a special way.
16:59:38 <ais523> well $@'s entire purpose is to get quoted correctly
16:59:44 -!- FreeFull has joined.
16:59:54 <Roujo> `run sed -i 's/>>/>/g' bin/complain
17:00:02 <Roujo> `run cat bin/complain
17:00:03 <HackEgo> echo "$@" > /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
17:00:03 <shachaf> $@ is weird because «"$@"» gets split into multiple arguments.
17:00:11 <Roujo> There, that's even better
17:00:24 <shachaf> `complain ais523 doesn't visit us enough
17:00:25 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
17:00:48 <ais523> shachaf: well, I spent days of thought + an evening writing a new, complex esolang which is some of my best work
17:00:54 <ais523> and #esoteric continues not discussing esolangs
17:01:04 <ais523> at this point I'm not sure it's possible to get ontopic discussion here
17:01:11 <ais523> and although I don't mind offtopic discussion
17:01:16 <ais523> the ontopic discussion is the reason I come here
17:01:27 <ais523> if there's no reason for me to be here, I don't visit
17:01:51 -!- Vorpal has joined.
17:02:08 <ais523> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake
17:04:12 <Gregor> Hey, that's the name of my Linux distro X-D
17:04:26 <ais523> no reason I can't name an esolang after a Linux distro :)
17:04:31 <ais523> (although it wasn't, we can pretend if you like)
17:06:24 <Gregor> “due for the tendency for documentation to get out of date quickly” lul
17:07:26 <fizzie> Roujo: $0- is a syntax, it's just not the bash syntax.
17:07:52 <Roujo> What syntax is it, then? =)
17:07:57 <Vorpal> ais523, that sounds pretty cool (from the introduction, will read the rest in a bit, got some stuff to take care of first)
17:08:19 <ais523> I am working on an interp, incidentally, but it's not finished ye
17:08:37 <fizzie> Roujo: I don't quite recall, but it certainly was a syntax somewhere. ircII scripts? Something.
17:08:44 <Vorpal> ais523, so unlike Feather it is doable?
17:08:51 <ais523> hopefully I'll eventually have a working hello world that can run successfully more than once
17:08:58 <ais523> Vorpal: *unlike Feather it is possible for me to implement
17:09:10 <ais523> I'm still convinced that Feather is implementable in general, I've just proven myself not up to the task
17:09:19 -!- Bike has joined.
17:09:49 <Roujo> fizzie: Ah, yes. That's the way scripting works on KVIrc. Thanks =)
17:12:43 <Vorpal> ais523, "it should be stored in files encoded in ASCII (more complex encodings are unnecessary due to the highly limited character set)" <-- that seems to work for most languages though... Can only think of a couple of examples that require more than ASCII.
17:13:01 <Vorpal> and it is impossible to write a Snowflake compiler, due to the possibility that the compiler would be deleted before the program was run (thus leaving the program with no implementation to modify) <-- hm, not quite sure about this one. Would a JIT be impossible?
17:13:12 <ais523> Gregor: you can write << and >> instead
17:13:14 <Vorpal> Gregor, that an some encodings of INTERCAL
17:13:26 <Vorpal> then just some encodings of intercal
17:13:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I guess a JIT would be possible, indeed
17:13:35 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, digraphs and trigraphs worked so well for C ;)
17:14:18 <ais523> hmm, that script interaction isn't going to get annoying at all
17:14:27 <elliott> don't worry, it already has
17:14:35 <elliott> we're on the road to acceptance now
17:15:07 <Phantom_Hoover> can we not just shove a null or a zwsp in the middle of the face
17:15:18 <ais523> clearly, the fix is to give HackEgo ops, so that it can temporarily mute myndzi when erroring out from `? and then unmute em a few seconds later
17:15:29 <elliott> the response was added solely for the purpose of `?
17:15:31 * ais523 is in the mood for excessively complex fixes right now
17:15:32 <elliott> so I like that solution even more
17:15:42 <ais523> actually it'd do well to stop botloops generally
17:15:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o HackEgo.
17:15:50 <elliott> we should have HackEgo always opped
17:16:01 <elliott> it's a challenge, to get it to send arbitrary IRC commands
17:16:12 <Roujo> "As such, there is an effective column of tarnished thread stretching off into infinity."
17:16:28 <Bike> is the joke that everybody's too horribly lonery to just ask myndzi to stop
17:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wasn't that disabled in the wake of the plazma thing
17:16:46 <Bike> is this going to be another `ls wisdom
17:17:10 <ais523> Bike: it's more that we're esoprogrammers, and that solution is insufficiently creative
17:17:27 <Roujo> myndzi's wisdom explains it:
17:17:27 <Vorpal> ais523, my mind is not in a state for reading the execution model right now. Way too tired to remember the start of the paragraph when I reach the end of it. I guess I'll give you some feedback tomorrow.
17:17:30 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
17:17:36 <Bike> uh huh, uh huh, sure
17:18:28 <Roujo> ais523: Lachine is where I live. boily and I realized that not only do we live in the same city (Montréal), he's the brother of one of my friends. =P
17:18:46 <Vorpal> Roujo, that is pretty funny
17:18:46 <ais523> I figured from the topic that there had to be at least two people there
17:18:49 <ais523> but didn't know what it was
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17:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> What does ! in double quotes in bash actually do; and, is it actually worth the inconvenience of not being able to write exclamation marks at all in double quotes?
17:22:44 <shachaf> The answer to your second question is no.
17:23:27 <shachaf> The best part is that you can't even up-arrow and fix the old line.
17:23:49 <Bike> `run echo "!!"
17:23:57 <shachaf> Also it's only in interactive mode.
17:24:14 <Bike> oh, it just interpolates the last ccommand.
17:24:22 <Bike> or... something.
17:24:22 <ais523> $ echo test \ test \ $ echo "!-1" \ echo "echo test" \ echo test \ $
17:24:30 <Roujo> Yeah, that's what it does for me
17:24:31 <ais523> yeah, it's for interpolating previous commands
17:24:38 <ais523> I just checked from the docs
17:24:51 <ais523> bash has a man page, and less's search isn't that awful (although info would be better)
17:24:51 <Roujo> Very useful when you forget sudo
17:25:06 <Roujo> Well, it *was* useful when my "home" key didn't work
17:26:05 <ais523> I'm not going to act ignorant and pretend that everyone has man pages even on Windows
17:26:22 <ais523> although I did convert the entirety of Perl's documentation to HTML so that I could view it on Windows
17:26:37 <ais523> (that documentation that ships with Perl, that is; not all of CPAN, that'd take ages)
17:28:42 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:28:54 -!- Bike has joined.
17:30:30 <boily> back from lunch, I got talked about myself, and if anyone wants to contribute to the Thingue, holler and I'll add you to the github repo.
17:30:34 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, third question: is there actually any reason for echo "\!" to print \!
17:30:35 <boily> (or nooodl too, I guess.)
17:30:35 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
17:30:42 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: if you're doing PHP, yes.
17:31:31 <nooodl> boily: i couldn't get it to compile because my latex installation doesn't support cjk characters... i have no idea how to fix this
17:32:05 <boily> nooodl: I use the texlive-langcjk package on archlinux.
17:33:04 <Vorpal> Message from syslogd@dragon at Sep 4 23:21:00 ...
17:33:04 <Vorpal> kernel:[189848.967709] journal commit I/O error
17:33:09 <Vorpal> That looks... worrying
17:33:46 <Vorpal> Yeah, an external USB 3 HDD is remounted as read-only on that system
17:33:57 <Vorpal> The backup disk to be specific
17:34:09 <ais523> good thing syslogd told you, then
17:34:21 <Vorpal> ais523, it was actually printed to the console
17:34:26 <Roujo> Read-only backup sounds like a good idea
17:34:38 <Vorpal> Roujo, seems to have happened during a backup
17:34:41 * boily dat extrema unctio ad Vorpalem
17:35:00 <Vorpal> [189848.966756] EXT4-fs warning (device sde1): ext4_end_bio:250: I/O error writing to inode 15076550 (offset 17760256 size 126976 starting block 56993246)
17:35:00 <Vorpal> [189848.966758] Buffer I/O error on device sde1, logical block 56992990
17:35:00 <Vorpal> [189848.966760] Buffer I/O error on device sde1, logical block 56992991
17:35:10 <Vorpal> thousand of lines like that
17:35:12 <ais523> Vorpal: it probably sent it to all VTs
17:35:55 <Vorpal> ais523, well, the disk is like less than two weeks old, but the USB 3 hub it is on is much newer than that, in fact the first after buying the hub
17:36:03 <boily> your HDD is HDDead, jim.
17:36:46 <boily> nooodl: could you send me the log of the pdf not compiling?
17:38:14 <Vorpal> boily, the HDD seems fine after remounting it. No SMART errors. A bit of journal recovery. Going to run a SMART tests on it.
17:38:31 <Vorpal> boily, I suspect it might be USB3-related actually
17:38:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:38:43 <Vorpal> or related to that new hub, since it happened in the middle of the backup
17:39:04 <boily> oh. bad thing, that. not karmic at all.
17:39:34 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.848388] hub 4-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -71)
17:40:01 <ais523> boily: karmic's a bit old by now, isn't it?
17:40:10 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189840.988070] usb 6-1.3.2: USB disconnect, device number 91
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189841.314285] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: ERROR no room on ep ring
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:52 tux kernel: [189841.314289] hub 3-2:1.0: activate --> -12
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.319721] usb 4-2.4: reset SuperSpeed USB device number 3 using xhci_hcd
17:40:11 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.335562] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d24320c0
17:40:13 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:20:59 tux kernel: [189848.335568] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d2432100
17:40:16 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.611473] usb 4-2.4: reset SuperSpeed USB device number 3 using xhci_hcd
17:40:19 <ais523> I/O failing due to the USB link failing is reasonable
17:40:21 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.627292] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d24320c0
17:40:24 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.627297] xhci_hcd 0000:05:00.0: xHCI xhci_drop_endpoint called with disabled ep ffff8801d2432100
17:40:27 <Vorpal> Sep 4 23:21:00 tux kernel: [189848.848388] hub 4-2:1.0: hub_port_status failed (err = -71)
17:40:29 <Vorpal> Yep, looks like USB fucked up badly
17:40:55 <Vorpal> Seems to have happened like a second after I disconnected my phone from another USB controller where it was charging
17:41:04 <boily> err -71 is bad. it indeed is an USB cabling error, usually. remove any intermediate steps or hops or everything, change cables, hope for the best.
17:41:20 <Vorpal> boily, oh? Is there a list of these numbers somewhere?
17:41:20 <ais523> boily: did you just look that up, or did you have it memorized?
17:42:32 <boily> Vorpal: probably. in fact, that may be very useful.
17:42:42 <Vorpal> Anyway I *believe* [189840.988070] usb 6-1.3.2: USB disconnect, device number 91 is my phone disconnecting
17:42:45 <boily> ais523: no, -71 is common and happened to me multiple times.
17:43:12 <Vorpal> The bus matches, the device doesn't though, but that seems to change on every disconnect or connect
17:43:13 <Roujo> boily works in a linux box. He probably has every man page printed on his desk.
17:43:30 <Vorpal> Roujo, he IS a linux box.
17:43:33 <boily> ais523: I was doing mobile development on android devices, and I had connection problems with one phone, for example.
17:43:58 <ais523> Roujo: why would you print man pages? apropos or even grep are better at searching than pper
17:44:16 <boily> some day, I'll build an automated arduinoed facepalm machine, and I'll dedicate it to you guys.
17:44:25 <Vorpal> boily, my phone seems to have a glitchy connector nowdays. Just over a year old too. Charging still works fine though, it is just that data might glitch out of you touch the connector
17:44:40 <Roujo> ais523: What if you don't have access to your computer?
17:44:48 <boily> Roujo: we have a custom man page about how to brew coffee, scotched taped to the wall next to the machine.
17:44:49 <ais523> Roujo: then typically I don't need the content of the man page
17:45:00 <Roujo> ais523: Be Prepared is what I say
17:45:15 <ais523> in the very few cases where I've wanted to check a man page and not had my regular computer, /and/ the computer I was actually using didn't have man pages installed
17:45:24 <boily> Vorpal: then it's like an old dusty NES: try to find the correct ritual that works, and stick to it.
17:45:27 <ais523> there was an Internet connection I could reasonably use, so I looked them up online
17:46:00 <Vorpal> boily, my ritual is charging over USB but running an SSH server on the phone and mounting it over sshfs instead
17:46:01 <Roujo> Right, the Internet
17:46:10 <Vorpal> boily, works better than bloody MTP anyway
17:46:34 <ais523> Roujo: I actually /can/ conceive of a situation where this wouldn't work, but it's never actually happened so far
17:46:45 <ais523> and there's a limit to the number of things I can carry around just in case
17:46:46 <Vorpal> boily, fuck MTP I say. Why did they think it was a good idea.
17:46:51 <Roujo> I'm curious... What would that situation be?
17:46:54 <ais523> I used to carry out a printout of the FIDE Rules of Chess, for emergencies
17:46:58 <ais523> and it actually came in handy once
17:47:02 <boily> Vorpal: that thing I've been avoiding since its inception?
17:47:04 <ais523> but I don't any more, it's not worth it
17:47:07 <Vorpal> boily, you can't do anything useful over it, like rsyncing your music library.
17:47:10 <ais523> Roujo: programming a Linux-based microcontroller
17:47:25 <ais523> some of the labs where I've done it had Windows computers only, and only intermittently working Internet
17:47:34 <ais523> so if the Internet had gone down, I could be left manpageless
17:47:34 <boily> Vorpal: it's useful, therefore you can't.
17:48:15 <Vorpal> lsusb is a bit on the fence about my phone model:
17:48:17 <Vorpal> Bus 006 Device 050: ID 04e8:6860 Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd GT-I9100 Phone [Galaxy S II], GT-I9300 Phone [Galaxy S III], GT-P7500 [Galaxy Tab 10.1]
17:48:38 <Vorpal> The second one is correct
17:48:40 <ais523> probably those models use the same identifier
17:48:43 <ais523> so lsusb has no way to tell which
17:49:07 <boily> my desk is manpageless: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/IMAG0028.jpg
17:49:17 <Vorpal> ais523, however, it does show up as GT-I9300 in Windows for example (as an MTP device). So that managed to detect it somehow
17:49:27 <ais523> boily: did you feel the need to photograph your desk just to prove there were no man pages on it?
17:49:47 <Vorpal> also not enough monitors
17:49:55 <ais523> home wouldn't have a room that shape, most likely
17:50:03 <boily> ais523: yes. I have honour!
17:50:18 <Roujo> boily: Nice desk. I like it.
17:50:24 <Roujo> Mine is a bit... messier.
17:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> this isn't sweden where everyone lives in rooms the size of a small house
17:50:32 <ais523> I actually don't have a desk atm
17:50:47 <boily> elliott: can you voice me, please?
17:50:50 <ais523> the teaching contract thing ended
17:51:01 <ais523> so I gave the desk back because I have no reason to use it and the department's short atm
17:51:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, eh, not that roomy in my place. I just thought it looked a bit unordered for a work desk
17:51:28 <ais523> (well, I actually returned a key that opens most of the doors in the building, rather than the desk; the desk was in the right place, the problem was that the wrong person was there)
17:51:38 <ais523> Vorpal: my work desk was basically empty
17:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> this isn't sweden, where all desktop items are aligned upon perfect euclidean boundaries
17:51:47 <ais523> I spent 4 years with nothing there but CPU/monitor/mouse/keyboard
17:52:01 <Vorpal> ais523, what about the HDD?
17:52:02 <boily> `run echo "An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info" >wisdom/atm
17:52:07 <Bike> i assume swiss desktop items are noneuclidean and gigeresque.
17:52:08 <ais523> and a filing cabinet with a bunch of paper in (most of which has now been recycled or sent for secure disposal)
17:52:12 <ais523> Vorpal: CPU tower container thing
17:52:33 <ais523> there was probably an HDD in there too, although all the filesystems I use regularly were NFS
17:52:42 <boily> elliott: you mathemanswered me, didn't you?
17:52:46 <Vorpal> ais523, oh? A thin client?
17:52:47 <ais523> well, still use from time to time
17:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> and dutch desktop items disobey all laws of perspective?
17:53:06 <ais523> Vorpal: no, it was like a powerful quad-core machine or something
17:53:19 <ais523> but the storage was all elsewhere, for centralisation reasons
17:53:30 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:53:34 <Vorpal> ais523, a quad core is not that powerful these days, more like the norm nowdays. Impressive how technology progresses
17:53:46 <Vorpal> Even my phone is quad core after all
17:53:47 <ais523> yeah, but it was powerful at the time
17:54:01 <ais523> it's quite rare that I actually used the power
17:54:07 <Vorpal> My phone is way more powerful than my first computer. By order of magnitudes.
17:54:13 <boily> Roujo: I githubly found you.
17:54:21 <ais523> probably the only time was when I used Virtualbox for marking the keyloggers
17:54:28 <Vorpal> And my first computer was a first-model iBook, so it isn't like I'm talking about a 386 or such here
17:54:53 <ais523> mostly because rebooting would have been a pain if they went wrong and crashed the kernel
17:54:57 <Vorpal> ais523, marking the keyloggers? What?
17:55:04 <Vorpal> Key loggers? That sounds... nefarious
17:55:06 <ais523> Vorpal: the students were asked to write keyloggers
17:55:08 <ais523> I was asked to mark them
17:55:19 <ais523> it's quite a simple exercise that you can give starting-out kernel developers
17:55:37 <ais523> you only have to hook one interrupt, and it has the basics of things like memory allocation discipline and proper locking
17:55:44 <ais523> and making files in /proc
17:56:06 <Vorpal> ais523, I would assume it works differently for PS/2, serial, USB and so on?
17:56:39 <ais523> I don't think it did in that exercise, possibly they were hooking at a different abstraction level
17:57:05 <ais523> or else the course designer didn't realise that would be a problem, and it just happened to use the same virtualised port in VirtualBox
17:57:22 <ais523> (the students were working in a lab of computers set aside for that sort of thing, which get wiped afterwards)
17:57:34 <ais523> I can believe that the people in charge of the course didn't think it would be a problem
17:58:12 <Roujo> boily: How do you get that sweet, short URL?
17:58:17 <ais523> it was an 11-week course, designed to be worked on at the same time as 5 other courses, about assembler and C and the GNU dialect of C and C++ and Linux kernel development
17:58:19 <Vorpal> Not that you ever see anything but USB these days. Or I guess whatever laptops use for their internal keyboards...
17:58:26 <Vorpal> Hm what *do* those use?
17:58:35 <Vorpal> Internal PS/2 or something better?
17:58:56 <ais523> but it could believably be something else
17:59:11 <Vorpal> ais523, seems like it would be costlier to not reuse the existing USB bus, like almost all bluetooth modules do in laptops anyway
17:59:43 <ais523> Vorpal: well then you need a bunch of hardware to convert the keypresses to the USB protocol
17:59:46 <ais523> might still be cheaper, though, I guess
18:00:04 <ais523> it would depend on whether complexity on the motherboard or keyboard was more costly
18:00:04 <Roujo> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/a9v6ve4elg7m36p/20130906_135201.jpg
18:00:25 <ais523> which would likely depend on what connectors happened to be on the motherboard
18:00:38 <ais523> because you're probably ordering them COTS, rather than having them custom-made
18:00:53 <Vorpal> Roujo, oh? I thought it wasn't home
18:00:59 <Roujo> More like "mostly open cubicule", but yeah, office
18:01:00 <Vorpal> Roujo, seems like you suffer a 16:9 monitor though
18:01:21 <Roujo> Vorpal: What do you suggest? =P
18:01:24 <ais523> do people actually work on their desktop computers at offices?
18:01:31 <ais523> I used my tiny laptop/almost a netbook
18:01:41 <ais523> at least partly because it was outside the firewall
18:01:47 <ais523> thus no real risk if I messed up
18:01:49 <Vorpal> ais523, we have laptops in mostly permanent docking stations at work
18:02:02 <Roujo> ais523: I do. Few people use laptops here.
18:02:06 <ais523> Vorpal: that mostly defeats the point of a laptop
18:02:32 <Vorpal> ais523, They are pretty useless outside of those docks, since they use 180 W PSUs to run at max speed. Battery time is abyssmal. But they are really good when compiling code. Top end quad core i7s
18:02:37 <ais523> I carry my laptop pretty much everywhere
18:02:38 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:02:41 <Vorpal> And massive SSDs inside
18:02:53 <Vorpal> And as much RAM as you can fit in them.
18:02:59 <ais523> also, the battery time on this is just about sufficient to boot it and enter your password
18:03:02 <Vorpal> I think mine has 12 GB RAM
18:03:04 <ais523> because it's several years old
18:03:13 <ais523> it used to be like 8 hours, but modern batteries lose duration so quickly
18:03:38 <boily> Roujo: sorry, stuck with a hairy XML problem here.
18:03:54 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I couldn't work on a laptop, too small screen. I regluarly use 2 external 24" 16:10 monitors + the built in laptop 16:9 monitors for various windows
18:04:12 <boily> I really would like to, but my SO wont let me near any blade.
18:04:29 <ais523> Vorpal: I can fit two 80-column programs side by side on this screen
18:04:33 <ais523> which is big enough for me
18:04:39 <ais523> on occasion sometimes I'll split it into 4
18:04:42 <ais523> both vertically and horizontally
18:04:53 <boily> Roujo: but yeah, dropbox.com → dossier Public → clic droit sur l'image → Copier le lien public.
18:05:01 <ais523> Vorpal: what, 80 columns or 4 programs?
18:05:54 <Vorpal> ais523, need an entire monitor to run the various component simulations, since I develop for a distributed embedded system, with like 4 units having monitors on their own, plus a window for the operator panel with the levers and what not. And a window with the IO module simulator
18:06:15 <Vorpal> lots of simulated CAN buses there
18:06:17 <ais523> why does a simulation need a monitor at all?
18:06:45 <Vorpal> ais523, well, if you want to mess with the GUI the users see. It is a control system for mining equipment. And there are several screens in the real machine.
18:07:01 <ais523> yeah, developing GUIs is a decent reason to have a larger monitor than everyone else
18:07:06 <ais523> so you can have their monitor + other things
18:07:14 <ais523> ofc, this is a reason for everyone else to have small monitors
18:07:17 <ais523> otherwise that couldn't be posible
18:08:06 <Vorpal> ais523, plus there is the manging client used in the control room or mine office and the coordination server for remote allocation (and some system configuration), but I can't have non-overlapping windows if I have *everything* open.
18:08:23 * ais523 hopes that "manging" is a typo for "mangling" rather than "managing"
18:08:53 <Vorpal> ais523, the latter alas. It just shows where all the units are on a map, and how much fuel and so on they have
18:09:01 <Vorpal> And where in the drill plans they are
18:09:28 <Vorpal> ais523, since each application also opens a 80x25 terminal window for the log/debug output, the screens fills quickly
18:10:24 <Vorpal> We use a autohotkey script to move all the windows around after starting the simulation. I hate autohotkeys syntax with a passion.
18:11:15 <ais523> this is beginning to sound increasingly WTF over time
18:11:29 -!- Bike has joined.
18:11:30 <ais523> I guess one really good thing about working for a CS department
18:11:45 <ais523> is that the sysadmins / computer technicians (they're the same people there) are really really good at their jobs
18:11:52 <ais523> because if they weren't, everyone would call them on it
18:12:16 <Bike> in a CS lab i actually managed to print a document to a physical printer
18:12:22 <ais523> I ended up having to need a kernel with custom configuration for a marking script, we explained the problem and they created a VM with a suitably configured kernel
18:12:28 <ais523> and the same filesystems as everything else
18:12:38 <ais523> Bike: at our lab, that'd have something like a 50% chance of working
18:12:41 <Vorpal> ais523, Anyway autohotkey is an a quite reasonable option for moving windows around on Windows. Because afaik there is no other good option for doing that when you press a key combo
18:12:47 <ais523> also it was mostly me who ended up refilling the printers in practice
18:12:50 <ais523> because I printed so many handouts
18:13:09 <ais523> Vorpal: yes, I'm just more amused that the situation became necessary in the first place
18:13:17 <ais523> it'd be nice to just pipe all the terminal output into a monitoring program, for instance
18:13:26 <ais523> that presents it appropriately
18:14:06 <Vorpal> ais523, true, that would be nice. Not sure it would be doable under windows though
18:14:24 <ais523> Vorpal: I was working with Windows console programming recently
18:14:27 <ais523> and my verdict is, "no idea"
18:14:39 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway windows opens windows (pun not intended) in terrible positions by default.
18:14:45 <ais523> Vorpal: it's not even a pun
18:14:48 <ais523> it's what the OS is named after
18:14:57 <Bike> ais523: 50% is more than the usual rate. time before that i tried to print something i had to download drivers. and install via a sh.
18:15:02 <ais523> which is probably a bad idea because the existence of X means that they can't trademark it
18:15:14 <ais523> Bike: we wouldn't have enough perms to do that
18:15:21 <ais523> the actual printing system worked fine
18:15:24 <Bike> on my personal computer, i mean
18:15:27 <ais523> but the queues had a tendency to just get stuck
18:15:41 <ais523> I'd do that via print to PDF + scp + ssh to send it to the printer
18:15:45 <Vorpal> We have a pretty cool printer system at work. You just print to the "Print Anywhere" device, then go to a printer and swipe your RFID door key thingy
18:15:47 <Bike> okay, well, that sucks.
18:15:51 <Vorpal> then you get a list of your printer queue
18:15:59 <Vorpal> And can select to print whatever
18:16:00 <ais523> but I was talking about from the labs themselves
18:16:15 <ais523> but it's very rare I needed to print anything other than handouts for students and marksheets
18:16:24 <ais523> and those could most easily be printed in the lab anyway
18:16:41 <ais523> (at least partly to stop people stealing them before I had a chance to collect them from the printer)
18:16:51 <Bike> also you know what's weird? the way we have a desktop metaphor and then cover our desktops in windows
18:16:55 <ais523> (which is unlikely but I took data protection seriosuly, especially when marks are involved)
18:17:38 <Bike> like, i have a physical desk, and there are hardly any windows on it at all.
18:17:46 <Vorpal> ais523, where do you work now?
18:18:04 <ais523> Vorpal: currently I'm finishing up a PhD, so at home
18:18:06 <Bike> maybe back in the 60s there was a fad of desks made of glass
18:18:09 <Bike> this is the only logical explanation
18:18:25 <Bike> some kind of system of wheels to move glass around the surface
18:18:27 <Vorpal> Bike, I have seen living room tables made of glass
18:18:53 <Vorpal> Well the surface that is, usually not the legs
18:19:05 <Bike> in the desktop metaphor that would be having your desktop background be a view into your CRT or some shit (back when we used crts)
18:19:07 <Vorpal> Though that would be cool and probably dangerous
18:19:41 <Bike> man. remember crts?
18:19:49 <Vorpal> I hate them with a passion
18:20:02 <Bike> how is something with an "electron gun" so damn inconvenient.
18:20:06 <Vorpal> Never really sharp, always slightly blurry and headache inducing
18:20:18 <Bike> if i had an electron gun i'd just shoot it all the time
18:20:34 <ais523> good CRTs actually have better image quality than good LCDs
18:20:39 <boily> if I had an electron gun, I'd make myself instant hot-dogs.
18:20:41 <ais523> but people preferred LCDs because they took up less space
18:20:41 <Vorpal> Bike, it isn't called a "gun" in Swedish. We use the terms "anod" and "katod"
18:20:52 <Bike> my grocery clerk? a professor? someone asking me out on a date? BAM electrongun'd.
18:20:52 <ais523> boily: I'm not sure if you can cook a hot dog effectively with beta-radiation
18:20:52 <Vorpal> Pretty sure they are used in English as well
18:21:03 <ais523> Vorpal: "anode", "cathode"
18:21:06 <Bike> Vorpal: anode and cath- yeah.
18:21:13 <boily> ais523: cooking it effectively is not the point.
18:21:16 <ais523> technical terms for referring to electrodes at particular voltages
18:21:27 <Vorpal> ais523, that depends on the quality of the LCD I would say. IPS panels can be pretty damn good
18:21:27 <boily> (irradiating hot-dog sausages, otoh... :D)
18:21:46 <Vorpal> ais523, I moved over to IPS at home after getting used to it at work
18:22:52 <Fiora> Bike: would you electron-gun iverum
18:22:58 <Vorpal> I can heartily recommend Dell UltraSharp U2413 btw. Dell UltraSharp U2412M is a bit cheaper (mostly due to the fact that it is sRGB instead of wide gamut) but still really good
18:23:06 <Bike> Fiora: you /and/ him, babe
18:23:23 <Fiora> that sounds painful :<
18:23:46 <ais523> Vorpal: anyway we wouldn't use "anode"/"cathode" to talk about an electron gun generally in English; it'd be like casually describing a computer by what sort of motherboard it used
18:23:57 <Bike> i don't think electron guns actually do anything to people
18:24:20 <Vorpal> ais523, hm I guess there is the term "elektronstrålerör" now that I think about it. Which would be "electron beam tube"
18:24:51 <Vorpal> or even electron ray tube
18:24:56 <Vorpal> both translations work
18:25:05 <Bike> i mean, electrons are like, small,, man.
18:26:03 <ais523> Bike: beta rays are actually pretty dangerous
18:26:12 <ais523> mostly via corrupting DNA
18:26:28 <Bike> Fiora: ok, i'll shoot him first to make sure it's safe.
18:26:46 <Fiora> beta particles don't sound very safe
18:26:53 <ais523> actually, alpha/beta/gamma rays are all dangerous; alpha are the most damaging if they get inside the body, but also get stopped very easily
18:27:11 <ais523> like, even a piece of paper gives pretty good shielding from alpha rays
18:27:28 <ais523> so beta are the most dangerous if you're near the source, and gamma from a long distance
18:27:51 <Vorpal> ais523, what about neutrons?
18:28:02 <ais523> unless you pointed an alpha ray directly at an open wound, but don't do that
18:28:04 <Vorpal> As happens in a chain reaction with uranium and such
18:28:18 <Vorpal> What is that radiation even called?
18:28:22 <ais523> I assume that there are people who know how dangerous they are, but I'm not one of them
18:30:01 <Fiora> neutrons are just called neutrons I thikn
18:30:21 <Bike> imo zeta rays.
18:30:54 <ais523> there's only one sort of neutron AFAIK
18:31:07 <ais523> I guess there are antineutrons too but they tend not to exist very much
18:31:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, in that case, there are different kinds of gamma ray too
18:31:21 <Bike> wow, way to be discriminatory ais.
18:31:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess alpha, beta and gamma are all pretty constrained by the nuclear processes that emit them
18:31:59 <Bike> can't neutrons have differente spin or some shit
18:32:03 <Bike> all these particles fuckcing spin
18:32:30 <Phantom_Hoover> but afaik the interactions that lead to alpha/beta decay have fairly strict requirements
18:32:39 <Fiora> yeah, most alpha particles have around the same energy
18:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> there's an isotope of tantalum which should in theory be ridiculously unstable, but because of this bizarre convergence of different effects is very very stable
18:33:36 <Bike> the fuck is tantalum even for
18:33:36 <Fiora> I love those weird cool isotopes like that
18:33:54 <Bike> god fuck capacitors
18:34:14 <Bike> j/k, i <3 capacitance.
18:34:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: was that during your metallurgy hipster phase
18:34:44 <Fiora> or like, the reason that technetium doesn't have any stable isotopes
18:34:49 <Fiora> or the be8/c12 resnoance
18:34:54 <Bike> i'm really into niobium, you've probably never heard of it, etc
18:34:58 <Fiora> (nuclear physics is so wonderful)
18:35:20 <ais523> Bike: there are such things as element hipsters?
18:35:45 <ais523> sorry, I have more scrollback than Vorpal but I read it backwards
18:35:48 <ais523> so I can get a little out of context sometimes
18:35:57 <boily> Roujo: could you voice me? elliott is being a mathematician today.
18:36:00 <Vorpal> ais523, I have 1000 lines per channel iir
18:36:38 <Bike> ais523: lanthanides are way better displayed on vinyl
18:36:46 <ais523> Vorpal: are you not aware that "Vorpal has no scrollback" is a #esoteric meme?
18:36:57 <Roujo> I am Not Authorized to Perform this Operatiön
18:37:41 <Vorpal> ais523, I am, but I'm ignoring it
18:37:58 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway the reason for me is probably reading it from the end and upwards too
18:37:59 <Roujo> boily: Ask HackEgo
18:38:11 <boily> HackEgo: VOICE! NOW!
18:38:15 <boily> HackEgo: pretty please.
18:38:25 <ais523> boily: why do you want voice so much anyway?
18:38:44 <boily> ais523: equilibrium of the forces. and I'm jealous of Roujo's status :D
18:38:50 <Bike> we should download irssi into hackego and have it join. it will, of course, be opped
18:39:12 <ais523> I don't think hackego knows its own IRC password
18:40:10 <ais523> in much the same way that programs are normally unaware of their own source coe
18:40:14 <ais523> (except in the case of Feather)
18:40:24 <ais523> oh, also Snowflake tells programs what their own source code is
18:40:41 <ais523> which isn't actually required, ofc – you could just write everything as quines – but they tend to need to know so that they can repair it
18:40:41 <Bike> what about kleene's theorem..................
18:41:13 <HackEgo> 871) -!- ais523 has parted #esoteric ("someone is going to mention Feather, I know it"). \ 872) <Bike> i don't even know anything about feather and i'm getting sick of the time travel jokes \ 902) <ais523> in Smalltalk, as in Feather, in order to do I/O, you must first create the universe <Sgeo> ais523, it seems quite capable of I/O... GUI is a fo
18:41:19 <Vorpal> why does Roujo have voice anyway?
18:41:29 <Roujo> The Canadian Cup, 2013
18:41:41 <ais523> it's boily who asked for it
18:42:07 <Roujo> All I know is that I got voice while commenting the race
18:43:26 <ais523> hmm… what might be interesting would be an IRC flag/permission-like thing
18:43:40 <ais523> that does nothing at all, except allow you to turn it on and off on other people
18:43:46 <ais523> it'd be an interesting exercise in social dynamics
18:43:46 <Roujo> That would be awesome
18:44:11 <Roujo> Over on SlashNET, there's a channel where anyone that gets in gets ops
18:44:30 <Roujo> So you just have to join it, and you get ops
18:44:31 <metasepia> SlashNET is a medium-sized, independently operated Internet Relay Chat (IRC) network.
18:44:43 <Roujo> That's also an interesting social experiment
18:44:47 <Bike> is slashnet one of those anti-serv places
18:44:55 <boily> Roujo: you heretic. there is one network, and the network is Freenode.
18:44:58 <Roujo> Nope, Services are there
18:45:04 <ais523> Roujo: heh; I remember the terms and conditions for quakenet
18:45:23 <ais523> which pretty much explicitly say "don't do that, are you idiots, if you op everyone in your channel we refuse to help if someone screws it up (which they will)"
18:45:27 <ais523> well, they don't use the same language
18:45:44 <Roujo> I've yet to see anyone abuse the op powers
18:46:03 <Roujo> Which is impressive, imo
18:46:10 <ais523> it depends on which networks you go to
18:46:12 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:46:24 <ais523> I've been on the receiving end of op abuse in other channels before now
18:46:24 <Roujo> On the everyone-is-an-op channel, I mean
18:46:43 <Roujo> I got k/b'd from other channels for no reason before =P
18:46:48 <ais523> my normal technique for dealing with it is to avoid the channel for a long time in order to worry people into thinking that I was seriously offended
18:46:52 <Roujo> 1) "I thought you were someone else"
18:46:58 <Roujo> 2) "I don't know you, so get out"
18:47:03 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:47:05 <ais523> especially in channels where the vast majority of people have autojoin, and joke kicks are comon
18:47:20 <ais523> for 2), it's called setting invite-only (or channel key)
18:47:23 <ais523> 1) is understandable though
18:47:45 <Roujo> It was just pretty random
18:47:48 <Roujo> Since I just got in
18:48:11 <Roujo> It was about an old community I was a part of, so I was catching up, talking to people
18:48:28 <Roujo> And then some op came back, saw that I was called Skynet, panicked and k/b'd me
18:48:58 <Bike> terrified of the terminator menace
18:49:23 <ais523> from my point of view: if Skynet really does become reality and start taking over the Internet (and then the whole world by proxy)
18:49:34 <ais523> if it actually thinks it's safe for it to use its real name, we're probably screwed no matter what
18:49:38 <ais523> so there's no point in worrying about it
18:51:18 <Bike> guess we're going to have to travel back in time to tell the op this.
18:51:22 <Roujo> ais523: We were talking about how I became Skynet just yesterday
18:51:47 <Roujo> When you suggested that I /nick Skynet to scare Darth_Cliche, back when I played BlogNomic
18:51:56 <ais523> wow, I'd mostly forgotten that
18:52:04 <Roujo> So that blognomicbot would show "Players watching the game: Skynet"
18:52:17 <ais523> I caused enough controversy when I started using callforjudgement on blognomic IRC, before I was a player
18:52:20 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
18:52:25 <Roujo> She didn't remember it at all, either =P
18:52:31 <Bike> blognomic controversy
18:52:33 <callforjudgement> the nick stuck, but I'm not allowed to use it for nomic any more
18:52:47 <Roujo> I remember, though. She came in and, again, k/b'd me. =P
18:53:04 <metasepia> Software description: support applications for various blognomic dynasties (Python).
18:53:04 <Roujo> Nevermind the fact that I had ops, so I was (probably) a known player =P
18:53:19 <Roujo> boily: http://blognomic.com/
18:53:21 * boily kicks DDG in the self-referential definitions
18:53:29 -!- mnoqy has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:53:37 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:54:03 <callforjudgement> basically, because a) it's easy to play, and b) it's fun the first few dynasties
18:54:17 <Vorpal> <ais523> I caused enough controversy when I started using callforjudgement on blognomic IRC, before I was a player <-- what does that do?
18:54:25 <boily> I think I tried nomic once with my bro and another guy (or girl, or human. probably human). it was... politico-confuzzling.
18:54:26 <Roujo> Or your win gets papered over and you resent the game forever
18:54:44 <Roujo> Vorpal: Call for Judgement, or CFJ, is an in-game term
18:54:48 <Roujo> Which makes the nick confusing =P
18:54:49 <callforjudgement> Vorpal: in Nomic, a call for judgement is what happens when there's a dispute about the rules and they want someone to resolve it
18:55:02 <callforjudgement> now, in BlogNomic specifically, they felt it'd be useful for people to make anonymous CFJs
18:55:05 <Roujo> boily: We should play together one day.
18:55:17 <Roujo> Heck, I played Nomic with Pouti for quite some time
18:55:44 <callforjudgement> (the standard example was in a Werewolf/Mafia game; if one of the Mafia felt that something was unfair to their team, they couldn't exactly bring up the point publicly)
18:55:50 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:56:02 <callforjudgement> thus, they had a user account, "callforjudgment" (US spelling), for the purpose of making them, that anyone could use
18:56:16 <callforjudgement> someone (possibly multiple people) started trolling via it, so it got deactivated
18:56:42 <callforjudgement> except I didn't notice the spelling difference, so I did it with UK spelling
18:57:01 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
18:57:05 -!- ais523 has changed nick to CallForJudgement.
18:57:22 <CallForJudgement> anyway, things lead to other things, and it's probably my primary nick now
18:58:55 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, really?
18:59:02 <boily> Roujo: there's the OUMF going on. retrogaming night today!
18:59:24 <CallForJudgement> (which, as is well-known by now, was randomly generated by the University's computer system)
19:00:23 <CallForJudgement> there's also "scarf", but mostly just because I noticed it wasn't taken
19:01:09 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:01:19 <Roujo> boily: What's that? =)
19:01:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:02:00 <boily> Roujo: one of Montréal's multiple mini-festivals. art émergent, random stuff, random people, random randomity.
19:02:31 <Roujo> `run cat /dev/random >> OUMF
19:04:42 -!- conehead has joined.
19:04:42 <Vorpal> <CallForJudgement> it's less taken on average than "ais523" <-- really? I wouldn't imagine it was used a lot
19:05:16 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: three-letters three-numbers will be taken by some people just by chance
19:05:52 -!- solidoodlesuppor has joined.
19:05:56 <Vorpal> True, but far from everyone will take one of those
19:06:00 <boily> `relcome solidoodlesuppor
19:06:03 <HackEgo> solidoodlesuppor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:06:22 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: and a good thing too, they'd all be taken already if they did
19:07:30 <boily> CallForJudgement: good to see I'm not the only one trying to autocomplete on mkdir.
19:07:37 <boily> (reformatting your quotes, btw. hth.)
19:08:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9162
19:09:04 <boily> only those that match /<[^[:alpha:]]*ais523[^[:alpha:]]*>/
19:10:19 <boily> I seem to have missed the USB sushi antediluvian craze...
19:13:48 <boily> in any case, your quotes are ready. you can peruse the PDF.
19:16:45 <CallForJudgement> so that I can mark the passage of qdb times by the esolangs being discussed
19:17:07 <mnoqy> quick someone say something funny about snowflake
19:18:23 <CallForJudgement> actually, I think I have a good definition for what makes a good esolang
19:18:26 <boily> why a snowflake? what is Radixal?
19:18:33 <boily> ~eval primeFactors 825
19:18:47 <CallForJudgement> it's a language which, at the point in time at which it was created, cannot be programmed in using programming techniques that already exist
19:19:06 <CallForJudgement> but BF derviatives are not good esolangs, because techniques for BF are well known now
19:20:15 <CallForJudgement> esolangs mostly exist to make things hard to understand on the surface
19:20:28 <Roujo> Snowflake uses kittens to reverse stack polarity.
19:20:32 <CallForJudgement> whereas nowadays, legit cryptography is about being mathematically unbreakable even if you know what you're doing
19:20:38 <Roujo> That's enough to make it a good esolang in my book.
19:21:10 <Roujo> Then again, few people even read my book.
19:21:40 <Roujo> CallForJudgement: Good enough of a quote for you?
19:21:54 <Roujo> solidoodlesuppor: Does VB count?
19:22:19 <Roujo> Right, PHP. Qualifies since there's still no known good programming technique to use.
19:22:20 <CallForJudgement> solidoodlesuppor: there was exactly one instance where an esolang made commercial success
19:22:22 <boily> Taneb: we're talking programming.
19:22:36 <boily> Taneb: also, your quotes were reformatted.
19:22:48 <Roujo> "sold for a net profit in 1991"
19:22:50 <HackEgo> 389) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 395) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 396) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 402) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insani
19:22:53 <CallForJudgement> also arguably the $25,000 I won from Wolfram Research was esolanging
19:23:13 <Roujo> CallForJudgement: You won 25k from them? Awesome! =D
19:23:21 <CallForJudgement> I think part of the reason I got there first is that people were trying to see it as a maths/CS problem
19:23:36 <CallForJudgement> (understandable, because most people don't know what esoprogramming is)
19:24:38 <CallForJudgement> basically because he seemed to consider the entire problem as a yes or no thing
19:24:39 <Taneb> CallForJudgement, I thought you were a newb! I have not been paying attention
19:25:03 -!- k_k_k has quit.
19:25:24 <Taneb> I have never seen you use that nick before
19:25:58 <CallForJudgement> I'm not annoyed at the controversy, I'm annoyed at Wolfram for not even noticing its existence
19:26:08 <CallForJudgement> also for thinking that something that runs in O(2^2^n) might be viable
19:26:25 <CallForJudgement> that computational class is too high for most people to comprehend
19:26:30 <Taneb> CallForJudgement, by the end of the month I'll be attending the University of York
19:26:48 <Taneb> Just thought you may have missed it
19:27:02 <CallForJudgement> always important to know whether there's anyone of importance in hexham or not
19:27:13 <CallForJudgement> and if you're in york, there's only a need to figure it out wrt elliott
19:27:37 <Taneb> Can you, as a former student, give me studency advice?
19:28:33 <CallForJudgement> and basically just stayed independent of everyone for like a year, it was pretty boring
19:28:59 <CallForJudgement> this also explains why the early ais523 era of C-INTERCAL was developed on SunOS
19:30:43 <Taneb> solidoodlesuppor, basically, CallForJudgement proved a very small system (that Wolfram was interested in) Turing-complete under the assumption that the tape started as some easily computable sequence
19:31:22 <Taneb> solidoodlesuppor, and some people, Wolfram included, didn't like that very much
19:31:59 <Roujo> Taneb, CallForJudgement: Is there anywhere I could read about this?
19:32:03 <Roujo> Sounds interesting
19:32:17 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram's_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine#Proof_of_universality
19:32:28 <Roujo> http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/images/prizeAnnouncement.png
19:32:57 <CallForJudgement> I stayed entirely out of it myself (mostly just watched, or ignored it)
19:33:24 <Vorpal> <CallForJudgement> also for thinking that something that runs in O(2^2^n) might be viable <-- wtf? He thought that was viable? I guess for very very small n
19:33:26 <CallForJudgement> come to think of it, this probably explains why the universality thing has 12 citaitons
19:33:42 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: I don't think he thought that was viable; rather, he just didn't think of checking the computational class at all
19:34:03 <CallForJudgement> there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because he ignored the initialization requirements of the rule 110 proof
19:34:32 <metasepia> A New Kind of Science is a best-selling, controversial book by Stephen Wolfram, published in 2002.
19:36:34 <Taneb> Roujo, as a Canadian, can you give me studency tips?
19:36:48 <Taneb> The state of being a student
19:37:04 <Roujo> I'm not a student anymore, mind you
19:37:17 <Roujo> And even when I was... I tended to not follow proper studency
19:37:28 <Roujo> Didn't do homework, didn't really study... =/
19:37:43 <Taneb> Is your advice gonna be "don't do what I did"?
19:37:43 <Roujo> So I'm not sure any advice of mine would be worth much
19:38:13 <Roujo> Here's my advice: "Never stop being curious."
19:38:21 <Taneb> That is good advice
19:38:46 <Taneb> Vorpal, as someone who probably was a student but I cannot actually remember, can you give me studency tips?
19:38:48 <Roujo> I'm a bit... lazy at times. But this is what saved me.
19:39:02 <Phantom_Hoover> <CallForJudgement> there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because he ignored the initialization requirements of the rule 110 proof
19:39:28 <CallForJudgement> Phantom_Hoover: he produced a turing machine (2,5 I think) which, when run on an empty tape, produces the pattern that rule 110 produces on an empty tape
19:39:47 <Vorpal> Taneb, hm, find friends early who are interested in studies rather than living the student life I guess. If that is what you want.
19:40:12 <CallForJudgement> I found friends eventually, and got on well with them, for academic project purposes
19:40:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, not really sure what kind of tips you want
19:40:21 <CallForJudgement> we went and collaborated to subvert the group project marking system
19:40:44 <Taneb> Vorpal, mainly I'm just a bit nervous because it's a big change for me
19:40:47 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, I'm playing paper & pen roll playing with a couple of them nowdays even after university.
19:41:04 <Roujo> Oh, about being a student... Yeah, friend are important. Surround yourself with people you want to be like, it helps to soak up their interest/intensity like a sponge. =)
19:41:15 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, And we usually meet up a couple of times every year for a dinner or such.
19:41:31 <CallForJudgement> universities aren't like schools where you're stuck with the same few people forever
19:41:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, learn LaTeX if you don't already know it. You might not need it at the start, but it will get invaluable pretty soon
19:41:48 <Roujo> Taneb: Being around people who do studies-related stuff for fun is a good way to make the studies themselves fun
19:42:13 -!- itsy has quit (Quit: itsy).
19:42:56 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, we are using a custom rule system, one of us (not me) is a rule set collector and nerd, so he made his own system instead of using an existing one. It works pretty well from what I can tell.
19:43:31 -!- Bike has joined.
19:43:44 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, I had good use of it in the second half of the second year and from that point onwards I would say
19:43:57 <Bike> is CallForJudgement still ais
19:44:10 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: from my point of view it was pointless because everyone else used Word even when we specifically told them not to
19:44:26 <Bike> just wondering if someone else is nicked callforjudgment as a joke before i ask ais a question
19:44:29 <Vorpal> Look! ais523 is evolving. He is turning into a CallForJudgement.
19:44:49 <CallForJudgement> I had to merge nine separate files, eight of which were Word files, in order to write a report
19:44:52 <Vorpal> (sorry I never played much pokemon, I don't remember how the wording goes)
19:45:04 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, ouch
19:45:07 <Bike> i haven't played pokemon in years. you know why? because i'm not a NERRRRRD
19:45:26 <CallForJudgement> the way I did it was to tell people to stop editing for a while, then run the Word-generated HTML through Tidy, then open it in Emacs and run a bunch of regexes on it interactively
19:45:30 <Vorpal> Bike, I only ever played one game, and in an emulator
19:45:38 <Vorpal> I never owned any handheld, or any console
19:45:48 <Bike> i at least played on a Real Console
19:45:48 <CallForJudgement> I qualified for the Pokémon World Championships in 2011 via coming top 8 in the UK
19:45:52 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, holy crap
19:46:07 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: how did you not know this? I think I've mentioned it in-channel before
19:46:08 <Bike> is there anything ais can't do
19:46:17 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, no I meant the Tidy stuff
19:46:25 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, that is what I went "holy crap" at
19:46:26 <Bike> anyway i'm going to ask my question
19:46:38 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: Tidy has a command line option specifically for cleaning up some of the worst excesses of Word
19:46:42 <Bike> which is just, you do cool hardware stuff, i'm in babby's first hardware class, do you have any suggestions for what to attempt to do with my fpga
19:46:58 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, anyway
19:47:07 <CallForJudgement> Bike: well the hello world for an FPGA (or similar hardware things) is to toggle one of the GPIOs between 0 and 1 every second
19:47:12 <Vorpal> I used LyX mostly, and for stuff I was the only person working on
19:47:20 <Bike> mm, i haven't done anything with the clock yet
19:47:23 <Vorpal> I never had to work on stuff with 8 people editing at the same time
19:47:38 <Bike> my most advanced design so far is something that turns off a different ssd based on which button is pressed.
19:47:40 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, thought it was every half second?
19:47:46 <CallForJudgement> Bike: FPGAs suck at asynchronous, you probably want to use the clock
19:47:50 <Bike> Gregor: i read an article on anosmia in birds the other day and thought of you.
19:48:01 <Bike> CallForJudgement: yeah, i meant, i haven't done anything complicated enough to warrant a clock :/
19:48:23 <Bike> i was hoping for my next thing i could have the ssds display the number input on the switches in base four
19:48:23 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, but that is hugely important!
19:48:26 <CallForJudgement> Bike: I feel a bit conflicted here because I had an argument with my PhD supervisor yesterday
19:48:30 <Bike> which requires clock because of the way the ssds are muxed
19:48:33 <Bike> CallForJudgement: oh?
19:48:43 <CallForJudgement> where he was claiming that I should abandon talking about asynchronous hardware because it wouldn't run on our FPGA
19:49:08 <CallForJudgement> (actually, the problem is that all the existing formalisms of delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware suck)
19:49:08 <Bike> well, i'm interested in clockless stuff, but it's a pretty abstract interest given my level of capability
19:49:13 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, there isn't much async hardware though, is there?
19:49:29 <Bike> right except you're, like, a phd candidate, you know more9 things than i do
19:49:56 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, I mean in a computer. Apart from some stuff dealing with races between different clocks and such, and IO, all the computation in a normal computer happens sync mostly, right?
19:49:59 <Bike> right now i just need to do my homework which is "how much current is running through the wire in this circuit" and shit like that. v. basic
19:50:12 <boily> @tell itidus19 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:16 <boily> @tell itidus20 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:17 <CallForJudgement> Vorpal: yes; the only even vaguely async stuff is on the buses
19:50:20 <boily> @tell itidus21 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:23 <boily> @tell itidus22 your quotes are formatted. check the /topic PDF. you are an \ldots{} abuser.
19:50:33 <boily> I think I have the itiduses covered.
19:50:41 <mnoqy> who all qualifies for quote formatting
19:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oh btw Taneb don't worry, you cannot possibly be worse-prepared for studenting than me and i managed ok
19:50:44 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, right, what about interrupts?
19:50:52 <Bike> mnoqy: only itidi.
19:50:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, this sounds like there are a fair few interesting anecdotes
19:51:08 <CallForJudgement> which is unsurprising, given that computers can't run instructions between clock cycles anyway
19:51:17 <boily> mnoqy: like hungarian soup, I conflagrated them.
19:51:29 <Bike> wow! i seriously forgot my pen. wow. can't do shit now. nobody has a pen in an EE building.
19:51:56 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, arguably they do in the sense that an instruction can be split over several cycles or several instructions can execute in one?
19:52:01 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, don't buses themselves usually have clocks btw?
19:52:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, not really, i just had very little experience living alone when i left and i adapted pretty quickly to it
19:52:17 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, okay
19:52:24 <Vorpal> CallForJudgement, anyway is the benefit of async hardware worth it?
19:52:43 <Bike> personally i'm partly interested in async because ~brainz~
19:52:53 <mnoqy> is this a biologist thing
19:52:59 <Bike> mnoqy: maybe.............
19:53:17 <Vorpal> I seem to remember reading about a MIPS CPU that was async
19:53:20 <CallForJudgement> but the circuits are more complex, meaning that it often isn't worth it in practice
19:53:40 <Bike> there are things in the nervous system that are vaguely clock-like in that they send out periodic signals independently of stimulation, but it's a pretty shallow analogy.
19:53:57 <Bike> this is important for e.g. walking without falling flat on your face and dying.
19:54:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:55:35 <Taneb> I think there's a postgrad at York doing something with chemical computers and async operation
19:55:47 <Bike> chemical computers are cool too.
19:56:02 <Bike> just kind of like weird-ass computers. if only there was a place to congregate, etc
19:56:56 <CallForJudgement> Bike: I'm actually writing a paper about asynchronous circuits atm
19:56:57 <mnoqy> international weird-ass computers conference
19:57:22 <boily> my LaTeX linter is weird. it seems to ignore kmc...
19:57:27 <Bike> don't mock me mnyoqyty
20:01:14 <HackEgo> 726) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
20:01:29 <Bike> define free will
20:01:35 <mnoqy> define 3d hashlife
20:02:00 <Bike> define implement
20:02:11 <CallForJudgement> Bike: basically that the rules involving that color can change at runtime in response to user input
20:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> this is important for e.g. walking without falling flat on your face and dying.
20:02:29 <Phantom_Hoover> my tutor specialises in walking without falling flat on your face and dying!
20:02:50 <Bike> insects have faces too
20:02:52 <Bike> also that's cool.
20:03:14 <mnoqy> i wish i specialized in walking without falling flat on your face and dying
20:03:36 <Bike> CallForJudgement: well the one hashlife concept works regardless, doesn't it? as long as you maintain a speed of light. you'd just have to mark blocks as hving to be recomputed
20:03:44 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: "ironically, he walks with six canes"
20:04:08 <CallForJudgement> actually some versions of elliottcraft don't have a speed of light, but adding one would make sense
20:04:42 <CallForJudgement> <ais523> Alert character (the one that goes beep when printed)
20:06:13 <Phantom_Hoover> he also has a bunch of arthropods in perspex and model ants in his office
20:07:02 <boily> kmc: ♪ your quotes are ready ♪
20:09:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quode: not found
20:09:43 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: because I'm not yet doing the letter “P”.
20:09:53 <CallForJudgement> wow, Snowflake is my /second/ language that is slightly inspired by my dislike for Java2K
20:09:59 <boily> (and if you're asking about Taneb's being done before you, it's because of atriq.)
20:10:09 <CallForJudgement> actually it's my third if you count Befunge2K, but that was never documented
20:10:36 <CallForJudgement> even though it's literally "Befunge-98 where all instructions except ; have a 50% chance of doing nothing instead"
20:10:45 <boily> CallForJudgement: you are kmc, right?
20:11:09 <boily> the mkdir predicament.
20:13:05 <CallForJudgement> <cpressey> I also guess I also have several other thoughts on the matter, but they are too wide-ranging and not directly relevant, so I will save them for The Manifesto.
20:13:48 <boily> ooooh! another document to latexify! :D
20:14:31 <boily> CallForJudgement: the The Manifesto.
20:15:52 <boily> CallForJudgement: in two parts. 1) cpressey mentionned an obscure Manifesto, that I wish to latexify. 2) http://www.kimmok.com/THE-MANIFESTO-MANIFESTO
20:15:55 <CallForJudgement> huh, apparently atehwa uses an ä in his or her eodermdrome programs
20:16:24 <boily> atehwa: who are you? are you approximative? I like your spurrious diæresification.
20:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> the spec just says 'characters', with absolutely no qualification
20:17:21 <CallForJudgement> bleh, now people who speak languages other than English have an advantage over me in eodermdrome-writing
20:19:18 <CallForJudgement> also according to the books I originally learned the alphabet from, & is a letter
20:20:50 <boily> «éperluette», which means “and by itself, and”. it was the 27th letter.
20:21:44 <CallForJudgement> (also, I remember that in Gödel, Escher, Bach, Hofstadter used ""/«»/»« quotes to distinguish English, French, and German)
20:22:17 <shachaf> «» is perfectly valid for quoting in English.
20:22:28 <boily> yes, that's the proper glyph name in French, but nobody uses it. everyone calls it «et commercial».
20:22:34 <shachaf> I've never seen »« in English, though.
20:25:07 <boily> they don't count as extra letters.
20:27:33 <boily> depends in which context you use «é». In French, it is equivalent to a regular «e» (or è, ê and ë for that matter), just with a small pixelly smudge over it.
20:28:02 <boily> mnoqy: you are nicely quoted. stop bathrooming with sgeo. hand. hth.
20:28:27 <boily> mnoqy: the /topic PDF includes your quotes now.
20:31:52 <nooodl> boily: oops i forgot about sending you that thing... i'll look into it in a bit
20:31:52 <nooodl> for now though: chapter 2 name proposal: The Things of Wisdomme
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20:33:30 <boily> nooodl: doing your quotes!
20:33:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23957
20:34:26 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there
20:34:38 <boily> I even used /no+dl/ for your name match.
20:36:59 <mnoqy> wow, good quote nooodl
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20:40:51 <boily> indeed. the linter fears kmc, now that I'm oerjanning.
20:44:20 <shachaf> boily: what, you have duplicate quotes?????
20:45:08 <boily> shachaf: yes? and?
20:48:45 <boily> @tell oerjan you are quoted. peruse the PDF.
20:49:55 <boily> Generic Identity Question: are oklopol and oklofok the same person?
20:51:11 <boily> well, it just happens that neither has quotes. so they can freely be who they are.
20:51:25 <HackEgo> 28) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 30) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list \ 32) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister \ 43) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 53) <oklopol> hmm, this is hard \ 5
20:52:02 <boily> woops. typo on my end, then.
20:52:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oklorientation: 32 is the only quote there that I think is made up
20:52:49 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: indeed. the okloes have 76 quotes in all.
20:54:28 <boily> and I may have missed some Gregor quotes. aurgh.
20:55:01 <boily> false alarm. I complete Gregor.
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20:59:42 <shachaf> I believe many things that aren't in the quotes.
21:02:48 <boily> oklopol: I mathematically hate you.
21:03:04 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:03:14 <boily> oh, wait. it's only a polynomial.
21:03:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lastseen: not found
21:03:53 <lambdabot> boily said 15m 8s ago: you are quoted. peruse the PDF.
21:04:55 <HackEgo> 2013-08-28 21:20:53: <oklopol> meaning with, in, by, respectively; i think
21:06:21 <oerjan> oklopol: have you become invisible to scots
21:07:00 <ion> shachaf: I didn’t get far with the poset functor thing. For A : C, F A : D, if i have a Fo : A → F A for the objects and you give me an (A → B), corresponding to a true (A ≤ B), i’m supposed to give you a (F A → F B), corresponding to a true (F A ≤ F B), is this right? I’m not sure i have enough building blocks for that.
21:08:18 <boily> and with that, The Okloes are quoted.
21:08:24 <shachaf> ion: What do you mean by Fo : A → F A?
21:08:29 <boily> time to go retrogaming!
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21:09:02 <shachaf> Is that → an arrow in one of the categories or some other thing?
21:11:19 <ion> shachaf: I read somewhere that a functor F : C → D involves F₀ : A → F A for the objects and F₁ : (A → B) → (F A → F B) for the arrows. I think the C → D, A → F A and F₁ : (…) → (…) arrows were supposed to be function arrows. Or something. Did i read something bad or misinterpret it?
21:12:10 <shachaf> OK, sure, as long as it's clear that that's different from the → arrow inside the category (which is just a ≤ relationship).
21:12:29 <CallForJudgement> hmm… I guess my only remaining hope for Snowflake is to get oerjan or Keymaker or someone interested in it
21:12:48 <CallForJudgement> and cry internally at the esocommunity's lack of interest in esolangs
21:12:54 <ion> shachaf: Yes
21:13:03 <shachaf> ion: So a functor F has F₀, which maps each object in C to an object in D, and F₁, which "maps" ≤ relationships.
21:13:26 <shachaf> It's pretty much what you said.
21:13:37 <shachaf> Just a function between posets which is order-preserving.
21:14:18 <shachaf> Which means that if x ≤ y then f(x) ≤ f(y)
21:14:31 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> Is there a name for those monads which are implementable even if bind can call its continuation at most 1 time? <-- i don't know but the STMonadTrans package refers to those without a name.
21:14:35 <shachaf> I.e. a monotonic function.
21:14:40 <shachaf> (Monotonically increasing.)
21:15:26 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo or well, i assume it's essentially the same.
21:19:15 <ion> shachaf: So… am i supposed to be able to make one in general?
21:19:26 <shachaf> What do you mean by "make"?
21:19:53 <shachaf> Let's say we have the poset category N of natural numbers.
21:19:59 <ion> I thought the exercise was to define F₁. So far we only have “type signatures”.
21:20:35 <shachaf> Well, there's at most one arrow between the object F A and F B.
21:20:42 <shachaf> So you just have to show that it exists.
21:22:42 <ion> I’m not sure how to do that.
21:24:11 <shachaf> Well, take any monotonic function from N to N, for example.
21:24:34 <shachaf> You have a "functor" that maps an object x to the object x+1.
21:25:53 <shachaf> Maybe I don't understand what you mean.
21:28:17 <shachaf> The goal was adjunctions or something like that, right?
21:29:19 <ion> I had the false impression that i should find a general definition of F₁ for any F : C → D, but i suppose the definition depends on the specific C and D.
21:30:01 <shachaf> Well, we have the definition of a functor, which is F₀ and F₁ which follow some laws.
21:30:45 <shachaf> (The laws are trivial when you're talking about posets, by the way.)
21:31:37 <shachaf> But when you're specifying some particular functor, you give a specific definition of F₁.
21:31:50 <ion> F₁ id = id; F₁ f ∘ F₁ g = F₁ (f ∘ g); anything else?
21:32:47 <shachaf> Well there's a "type law" of sorts, which is that if f : A -> B then F₁ F : F₀ A -> F₀ B
21:33:08 <shachaf> (Usually people don't bother writing F₀ and F₁, just F. Or, in Haskell, they write fmap instead of F₁.)
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21:35:47 * oerjan wonders what those empty squares are
21:35:53 <oklopol> so if i have two say minimal compact dynamical systems X and Y, is there a name for the following: for any morphism \phi : X \times Y \to X, there's a function \psi : X \to X such that \phi(x, y) = \psi(x) for all x, y
21:36:32 <oklopol> continuous function that commutes with the dynamics
21:36:52 <CallForJudgement> oh, for a moment I thought oerjan was asking what morphisms are in general
21:37:30 <ion> shachaf: Thanks for the explanations. I should start reading Awodey’s book at some point.
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21:37:54 <oerjan> oklopol: by what you write, phi is independent of y
21:37:54 <shachaf> ion: Awodey has some great videos -- a few hours -- that you could watch.
21:38:16 <ion> shachaf: Oh, cool. /me googles
21:38:24 <oklopol> currently i say "X is independent from Y" for this
21:38:32 <shachaf> opm" http://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/summerschool/summer12/curriculum.html
21:38:33 <oklopol> was just wondering if there's a name
21:38:58 <ion> djsvjsg" thanks
21:39:07 <oklopol> it seems like a relatively useful concept for minimal systems; at least it seems to be exactly what is needed for computing the endomorphisms of certain toeplitz subshifts
21:39:53 <ion> Kuolema kuittaa univelat.
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21:46:55 <shachaf> ion: The next step is natural transformations, I guess!
21:50:25 <oerjan> clearly something eerie is going on
21:57:21 <olsner> ion: Death to reset the sleep-deprived?
21:58:37 <ion> Death will pay off the sleep debt
22:04:11 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell oklopol say okokoko a bit in #esoteric so we can `addquote it
22:04:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19632
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22:07:31 <kmc> "i call rule 34 on rule 110"
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22:08:46 <olsner> sure, how hard could it be?
22:10:24 <kmc> right i mean it's turing complete
22:10:59 <olsner> not everyone has the same taste as turing though
22:12:59 <olsner> hmm, I should do something... tomorrow maybe?
22:13:22 <oerjan> tomorrow: procrastinating
22:13:54 <kmc> doing things: overrated? or not?
22:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN^WWORLDNEWS: http://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1kw1nd/not_a_conspiracy_anymore/cbtdfzh
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22:15:13 <olsner> I saw a "bitcoin" credit card today, so this bitcoin thing must be "getting somewhere"
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22:16:53 <kmc> `bitcoin' ``credit'' ```card'''
22:16:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bitcoin': not found
22:17:18 <olsner> it may have been a debit card but the distinction is lost on me
22:18:32 <fungot> olsner: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
22:18:34 <kmc> was it actually bitcoin-enabled in some way
22:18:41 <kmc> or did it just like have a bitcoin logo on it
22:19:12 <olsner> mostly it was connected to a bitcoin exchange and you could sell bitcoins to have the balance directly deposited on your card
22:19:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought bitcoins were useless for up-front transactions
22:19:43 <olsner> fungot: and I know that's just a bit of the ^style list, stop cheating
22:19:43 <fungot> olsner: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins were in truth, and everything in readiness for fnord. under these, too
22:20:06 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: how do you mean
22:20:17 <olsner> i, myself, will bring an end to all. everything in readiness for fnord!
22:20:53 <kmc> fnorderdämmerung
22:21:20 <olsner> die erdämmerung der fnord
22:22:11 <shachaf> kmc: doing things can be nice but not doing things has its own charm
22:22:42 <kmc> does playing mölkky count as doing things or no
22:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, it has a long-ish transaction delay or something?
22:23:09 <kmc> a lot of physical merchants seem to not care though
22:23:48 <kmc> maybe they use a transaction processor that converts BTC immediately into bilderberg conspiracy fiat currency, and guarantees them against fraud (like cc processors do)
22:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> you buy a croissant, eat it, then cancel the transaction before it goes through>
22:24:45 <olsner> going via "bilderberg conspiracy fiat currency" sounds quite reliable
22:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> btw on the topic of the bilderbergs i would like to once again recommend THEM: adventures with extremists
22:25:55 <olsner> and are you sure they guarantee *against* fraud, rather than e.g. guaranteeing fraud? (I also idly wonder which one of those is more likely to give your money back)
22:26:06 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: the risk is double spend
22:26:21 <kmc> cancel i guess would mean you double spend also by sending it to yrself
22:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> so what, you override the earlier transaction with a second one that sends the money elsewhere?
22:27:56 <Fiora> I think the jist is you send two transactions out at once, and hope the other one gets included in the block chain?
22:28:24 <olsner> let me tell you exactly how it works
22:29:09 <kmc> or maybe you dont care which one gets included
22:29:12 <kmc> but you got two things
22:29:16 <kmc> for the price of one
22:29:30 <Fiora> I don't think a miner will accept two transactions coming from the same money?
22:29:32 <Fiora> like, they'll reject it
22:31:08 <kmc> so merkhants are advised to wait for the netwrk to agree on the transxn
22:31:35 <kmc> which is not a discrete thing but the longer you wait, the less likely it will change its mind
22:31:59 <kmc> (it is discrete in units of blocks, which take avg 10 min to make)
22:32:29 <kmc> but most people dont wanna wait 10 min for a croissont much less 30
22:32:38 <kmc> so your btc bakery must take this risk
22:32:43 <kmc> or pay someone else to assume the risk
22:32:57 <kmc> in which case that third party can also run an instantaneous change to money that is actually useful to your business
22:33:21 <kmc> you know because your landlord and croissont supplier probably don't accept bitcoin (dupes of the global banker hegemony that they are)
22:33:26 <HackEgo> echo "$@" > /dev/null; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.;
22:33:57 <oerjan> no complaints, how nice.
22:35:05 <kmc> painting nails
22:35:25 <Fiora> I think that's neither
22:35:28 <shachaf> `run ln -s /dev/null complaints
22:35:31 <Fiora> unless he's done smoething very very wrong with acetone
22:35:34 <kmc> dronk on ethyl acetate fumes
22:35:58 <shachaf> `run echo 'wc -l complaints' > bin/complaints; chmod +x bin/complaints
22:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, oh good (i just asked in case your hands were too badly injured to alert the emergency services)
22:38:16 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's#/dev/null#complaints#' bin/complain
22:38:19 <kmc> in which case you would call for me 0818 999 88911 9119725 3
22:38:29 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/>/>>/' bin/complain
22:38:38 <kmc> i think these days the preferred way to alert the police is twitter
22:38:59 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/;$//' bin/complain
22:39:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think that will handle the complaits already made. i suggest modifying the `list method.
22:39:23 <shachaf> It handles them very well.
22:39:43 <HackEgo> echo "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
22:39:59 <shachaf> oerjan: Alternatively: I suggest that you file that as a complaint.
22:40:25 <shachaf> `complain oerjan won't do his complaint duty
22:40:26 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
22:41:43 <oerjan> `run echo 'See misspellings of croissant' >wisdom/'croissont supplier'
22:52:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v myndzi.
22:52:55 <oerjan> can't have HackEgo and myndzi have different length flags. or wait...
22:53:20 <oerjan> it'll be broken anyway.
22:53:43 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
22:59:26 <shachaf> if myndzi has voice, i demand voice! \o/
23:03:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v myndzi.
23:03:37 <oerjan> and we can't have _that_.
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23:09:05 <oerjan> <elliott> boily: yes <-- i believe the " , please" makes your answer incorrect unless you actually do it
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23:10:10 <shachaf> Even if you use it zzo38-style?
23:11:51 <HackEgo> 2011-01-04.txt:20:30:31: <zzo38> cheater99: Hay you! Stop cheating, please!
23:11:51 <HackEgo> 2011-04-18.txt:04:32:11: <zzo38> Maybe submit the report and then they can correct it please.
23:12:39 <HackEgo> 2011-10-09.txt:04:06:50: <zzo38> Unicode works for some things, but you should not always use it, please.
23:12:39 <HackEgo> 2013-03-12.txt:06:10:35: <zzo38> If you can't use geosynchronous orbits for triangulation, then it would be the idea that if you have satellites that need triangulation, remember to don't make them geosynchronous, please.
23:12:40 <HackEgo> 2011-04-10.txt:01:56:49: <zzo38> O, go drink hydroxic acid, please.
23:13:01 <oerjan> shachaf: I THINK YOUR THEORY IS BADLY SUPPORTED
23:13:29 <HackEgo> 2011-03-13.txt:05:29:13: <zzo38> oerjan: Can you ask elliott to correct it please?
23:13:29 <HackEgo> 2010-04-04.txt:07:17:02: <zzo38> Quadrescence: Why do you think that, please?
23:13:30 <HackEgo> 2011-12-20.txt:22:11:21: <zzo38> Not exactly what it does? Can you elaborate on that please?
23:13:52 <HackEgo> 2012-03-02.txt:08:08:11: <zzo38> Do you have better idea please?
23:13:53 <HackEgo> 2013-03-30.txt:03:20:12: <zzo38> pikhq: Does it depend on how it is generated? Can you give details please?
23:14:32 <oerjan> shachaf: give up already. or it least use `pastelogs
23:14:45 <shachaf> `pastelogs zzo38>.* please\?$
23:15:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24912
23:15:13 <Bike> quadrescence used to be in here?
23:15:21 <shachaf> `pastelogs zzo38>.* please.?$
23:15:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20462
23:15:47 <shachaf> Bike: Do you know them from #lisp?
23:15:54 <Bike> and a few other places, yes
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23:36:51 <ion> shachaf: Let me verify something: in the category of matrices with multiplication, are the objects natural numbers corresponding to matrix dimensions?
23:37:06 <ion> Ok, thanks
23:37:09 <Sgeo> WHO was bathrooming with me?!?!?
23:37:36 <shachaf> ion: There's another way to look at that category: The objects are R^n for natural numbers n, and the arrows are linear maps.
23:39:59 <ion> sgeo: Why would the World Health Organization do that?
23:40:34 <ion> shachaf: Hmm, interesting.
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