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00:07:30 <Sgeo> Do Erlang developers still only push to production off-peak?
00:22:59 <Sgeo> http://whateverorigin.org/
00:23:45 <Bike> why is this something you want?
00:24:19 <Sgeo> I'm just wondering why CORS needs to send preflight for cross-origin complex if cookies won't get sent
00:24:24 <Sgeo> I... think that's what I'm wondering
00:24:33 <Sgeo> If that could be faked with whateverorigin.org and similar services anyway
00:25:12 <Sgeo> Well, whateverorigin is JSONP and thus forces GET and doesn't specify a way to POST, but not too hard to imagine ... some alternatives
00:28:52 <kmc> shachaf: why is East Palo Alto due north of Palo Alto?
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00:43:03 <tswett> Oh look, the NFL pre-season has started.
00:43:07 <tswett> Wonder how I can watch it.
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00:49:39 <shachaf> kmc: "Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; / Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'"
00:53:24 <kmc> pretty much
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01:00:13 <Bike> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18369820/ computer science
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01:06:04 <nooodl> Bike: i like how it's tagged python, r, matlab
01:06:31 <nooodl> it's like "i'll use ANYTHING just PLEASE help me"
01:07:21 <Bike> well do you know how to do it in matlab? i don't
01:08:37 <Sgeo> shachaf: did you cheer?
01:08:40 <Sgeo> Because I cheered
01:08:54 <tswett> http://pastie.org/8258290
01:09:28 <Bike> i'm a bike, not a guy
01:13:13 <Fiora> 1377102864 seconds? XD
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01:13:38 <Fiora> Bike: well, if you're going to start getting specific... :p
01:13:40 <tswett> I guess I sent that request about 44 years ago.
01:14:02 <Fiora> tswett: maybe it's from 1970 (unix timestamp 0)?
01:14:12 <Fiora> That actually kinda sounds about right.
01:14:31 <tswett> That is definitely right.
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01:17:13 -!- tswett has set topic: tswett needs noderefs | The welcomes of doom | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | <AnotherTest> fizzie: true, it needs to be made more complex.
01:17:54 <tswett> I don't need no stinkin' derefs!
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02:26:47 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookland data. data is sorrow.
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04:08:43 <Bike> so does anyone here know how to scan books without destroying them.
04:17:55 <fizzie> I think I read something about that the other month.
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04:20:51 <fizzie> Sadly, about all I can recall is that it was a lot more difficulter than just cutting stuff up.
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04:40:45 <coppro> grimbark is apparently a word now
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07:10:29 <Sgeo> shachaf: yes, the events of the latest olist made me happy
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08:26:33 <Koen_> wow, "if" is a function in haskell?
08:27:12 <oerjan> no it's special syntax
08:28:13 <oerjan> you could easily define a corresponding function but there's none in the standard library.
08:28:22 <Koen_> wikipedia says: if' :: Bool -> a -> a -> a
08:28:30 <fizzie> That's "if'", and it's just a suggestamation.
08:28:37 <kmc> lambdabot's @pl uses it
08:28:40 <fizzie> (Or is it a reality already?)
08:28:55 <Koen_> so in haskell you can make a function call without evaluating the arguments?
08:29:18 <oerjan> Koen_: yes. that's why it's called a "lazy" language.
08:29:50 <Koen_> that's quite a lot of laziness
08:31:03 <kmc> you can write True || _ = True; False || x = x and that gives you a short circuiting 'or' operator
08:31:12 <kmc> as an ordinary function with infix syntax
08:31:46 <kmc> in Agda you can define a function named if_then_else_ and call it as if x then y else z
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08:51:19 <oerjan> @tell myndzi Hey those coördinates are not in Olympia!
08:52:58 <oerjan> it's somewhere in the middle of nowhere in washington state. possibly the state's center of mass.
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08:59:42 <oerjan> `pastelogs maybe start a home based
09:00:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22482
09:00:57 <oerjan> darn that only shows up the fungot quote itself
09:00:58 <fungot> oerjan: should be just raw packed pixel stream, i mean
09:01:27 <oerjan> `pastequotes really savvy glass
09:01:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23637
09:01:43 <oerjan> `pastelogs really savvy glass
09:01:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16324
09:02:44 <oerjan> sadly the glass seems to come from "<GregorR> Yeah, I guess a really savvy Glass programmer could make some very non-esoteric things in it :)"
09:03:17 <oerjan> fungot: your version was _so_ much better hth
09:03:18 <fungot> oerjan: but it doesn't work, thats my problem.
09:03:34 <oerjan> hey it _could_ work :(
09:04:38 <fizzie> oerjan: The other half is from #scheme, "2005-04-12 08:50:03 <The_Apprentice> would this be a cool way to make some money, maybe start a home based business".
09:05:22 <fizzie> "This" being Lisp/Scheme.
09:06:05 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RMYQ a bit of a ramble.
09:06:48 <oerjan> well i think fungot's "i'd hate learning cobol and fortran just for getting wiki work." at the end was also part of what made it.
09:06:49 <fungot> oerjan: www.harderweb.de/ jix/ langs/ brainfuck/ util/ fnord, but for a different lang order of
09:07:16 <oerjan> `addquote <fungot> boily: so i guess a really savvy glass programmer could make some money, maybe start a home based business of a profiler to spot outright dead code. macro-generated code often has big swaths of it. i'd hate learning cobol and fortran just for getting wiki work.
09:07:16 <fungot> oerjan: you don't need to duck.
09:07:19 <HackEgo> 1093) <fungot> boily: so i guess a really savvy glass programmer could make some money, maybe start a home based business of a profiler to spot outright dead code. macro-generated code often has big swaths of it. i'd hate learning cobol and fortran just for getting wiki work.
09:07:42 <oerjan> ~duck but what if i want to!
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09:08:03 <oerjan> the cephalopodic one is absent :(
09:08:16 <Taneb> That fungot quote is really profound
09:08:17 <fungot> Taneb: note to self: use ffts for error correction you need quite easily.) then an additional swap is not necessary
09:09:00 <fizzie> It is a font of wisdom.
09:10:04 <fizzie> fungot: Incidentally, have you ever thought of designing a typeface?
09:10:04 <fungot> fizzie: hello? i have never before seen a beverage that keeps for some fnord have some really nice tos optimizations.
09:10:52 <oerjan> i have a hunch fungot didn't understand the question.
09:11:24 <oerjan> fungot: i'd suggest metafont instead, i think it's esoteric too and is what zzo38 uses.
09:11:25 <fungot> oerjan: thought of generalizing that definition right up to " performing flow analysis"? or do you
09:11:51 <oerjan> fungot: no, i didn't think of that.
09:11:52 <fungot> oerjan: s/ release/ version/ vehicular manslaughter!" or " robust" though, because oklotalk is a language, but some of the major ones
09:12:47 <fizzie> fungot: Sometimes you worry me.
09:12:48 <fungot> fizzie: even when the underlying db type wasn't really a string, and returns what receiver returned. srfi 8 is receive. srfi 11 is syntax for method invocation, rpc for java programming.
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10:23:30 <oerjan> <Sgeo> oerjan: I cheered <-- wat
10:30:53 <oerjan> @tell sgeo <Sgeo> oerjan: I cheered <-- wtf context man
10:35:46 <oerjan> <Sgeo> shachaf: yes, the events of the latest olist made me happy <-- oh that. well i guess he had it coming to him.
10:36:46 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> shachaf: yes, the events of the latest olist made me happy <-- oh that. well i guess he had it coming to him.
10:38:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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10:45:44 <Taneb> Well, that's the first time in Brogue I've been killed by a potion of levitation
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11:32:48 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
11:32:55 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
11:33:07 <Roujo> fungot: Should you be or not be?
11:33:08 <fungot> Roujo: scene i. rome. a room in the palace.
11:33:24 <Roujo> 'morning, #esoteric
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11:41:20 <fizzie> fungot: Well, don't just stop there.
11:41:21 <fungot> fizzie: comedy. how now, sirra, doost thou? i once did lend my bodie for thy wealth, it is
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12:09:30 <fungot> Roujo: choose you, sir?
12:09:32 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
12:09:44 <Roujo> I'd like to add that fungot is a botwhore
12:09:45 <fungot> Roujo: mar. an. with all my heart, that there adiacent lie, that have done nothing but prate to me of the dukes? and my chastitie be made the altar, where we host, and make vs wade euen in our kindreds blood: therefore, if thou tak'st leaue, thou wer't better gaul the diuell salsbury. if thou shouldst strive to choose.
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13:29:17 <boily> good TSRA morning.
13:29:20 <metasepia> CYUL 221300Z 26006KT 8SM BKN055TCU OVC240 21/20 A2990 RMK TCU7CI1 SLP123 DENSITY ALT 900FT
13:29:31 <boily> and it stopped raining! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
13:30:08 <metasepia> CYUL 221300Z 26006KT 8SM BKN055TCU OVC240 21/20 A2990 RMK TCU7CI1 SLP123 DENSITY ALT 900FT
13:31:20 <boily> I started pouring 10 seconds after I started bixiing, then it stopped a few minutes after my ride.
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13:35:45 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that.
13:36:04 <Roujo> Tell me when you stop pouring, mmmkay?
13:36:10 <Roujo> I think it missed Dorval
13:39:19 <boily> I wringed my clothes in the office shower. the pour has somewhat ended, and I have a deserved coffee.
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13:41:48 <boily> oh, environnement canada issued a SPECI:
13:41:50 <metasepia> CYUL 221338Z 21012KT 6SM -SHRA BR OVC070 22/18 A2989 RMK AC8 SLP121 DENSITY ALT 900FT
13:43:16 <boily> the forecasts are unsure about if it's going to just TSRA or +TSRA in the next hours. at the very least, with my kurrent karma, lunchtime will be an aquatic experience.
13:43:31 <boily> (“welcome to, marineland! ♪”)
13:49:04 <Roujo> Knowing what TSRA means would probably help
13:50:14 <boily> thunderströmming rain.
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13:54:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:55:00 <HackEgo> fomething denotes the obsolescence of clinical insanity.
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17:40:21 <oerjan> <boily> thunderströmming rain. <-- no matter how bad, it's still better than surströmming rain hth
17:41:29 <oerjan> also, do you canadians have some kind of natural ability to understand those crazy encrypted forecasts.
17:43:23 <boily> we are super-powered Canadians! the obscure and polite force that will Save the World, eh!
17:43:41 <oerjan> while mounted on horses.
17:44:38 <boily> horses are the prhoof of our down-to-earth pragmatism, of our survival skills in the Great White North, of our ability to make Poutine with whatever there is!
17:45:50 <Bike> i can only assume boily lives way up north in a town that only exists for the sake of a NORAD weather station
17:46:54 <oerjan> ok so that's what poutine is. it looks even less healthy than what i usually eat.
17:47:51 <boily> to make an original authentic Poutine you need three ingredients: French fries, cheese curds (fresh ones will squeak under your teeth), and poutine sauce.
17:48:07 <boily> some will argue that regular brown sauce is also an option, but they're heretics.
17:48:25 <oerjan> wp calls it "gravy" hth
17:48:39 <boily> don't trust wikipédia on that matter.
17:48:51 <boily> it's serious business.
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17:49:52 <boily> various toppings are perfectly acceptable and recommended. you can add: meat, peas, other cheeses, onions, bacon, sausage, peppers, tomato sauce, béchamel, [EXPUNGED], mushrooms, corn...
17:50:36 <boily> it is the canonical stomach-filler a traditional Québécois will get after a night out crawling the bars.
17:51:18 <oerjan> i see. in norway that's somehow become kebab.
17:51:30 <oerjan> although burgers will also do.
17:52:17 <oerjan> oh i guess sausages too, which may even be more traditional.
17:53:25 <boily> this restaurant is Montréal's reference: http://labanquise.com/ (English version available)
17:58:40 <boily> oerjan: looks like wp mentions the cult status of norwegian kebabs.
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18:22:28 <Roujo> I don't know how this works, but it does, so eh
18:23:44 <kmc> squeaky cheese is the best
18:24:04 <boily> Roujo: [$(1)$] with spurrious lines?
18:24:14 <kmc> kebab seems easier than poutine to eat on the go
18:24:18 <Roujo> Shows up as a dollar bill to me
18:24:54 <boily> kmc: pourine in throwaway coated cardboard platters is pretty easy to carry.
18:25:05 <kmc> U+18B96 GEORGE WASHINGTON'S FACE
18:25:22 <boily> s/pourine/poutine/
18:25:46 <boily> otoh, you can also get a good shish taouk, with random chicken bits in it!
18:26:15 <olsner> "random" chicken bits sounds fishy
18:26:57 <Bike> kmc: disappointed rn
18:27:01 <boily> olsner: it adds to the taste, with pickled beets, tomatoes, lettuces, and that garlicky mayonnaise.
18:27:46 <boily> my girlfriend and I have an ongoing argument whether tomatoes are authentic in shawarma wraps or not.
18:28:25 <Taneb> I have an ongoing argument with one of my friends on how to pronounce "sanguine"
18:29:15 <kmc> people keep arguing about how to pronounce "banal"
18:29:18 <kmc> "rhymes with anal"
18:29:38 <oerjan> the squeaky cheese gets the grease
18:29:42 <Taneb> boily, we agree on the first syllable
18:29:44 <kmc> boily: what about french fries in shawarma wraps
18:29:52 <Taneb> It's whether it's -win or -wine
18:30:01 <boily> kmc: on the side, not in.
18:30:08 <Bike> uh -wun obviously, do you not see the "u"
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18:30:24 <boily> Taneb: where does that [w] come from, you unorthodox unpronouncer that you are?
18:30:46 <Taneb> boily, I don't know, probably the Vikings
18:31:05 <olsner> Taneb: how about sangween?
18:31:16 <Taneb> After King Charles the Simple of France gave them land in Normandy, some of them learnt French
18:31:24 * boily lobs a Larousse dictionary at olsner
18:31:26 <Taneb> But the dialects diverged
18:31:39 <Taneb> Then these Franc-swedes conquered England
18:32:40 <olsner> boily: I thought we were talking about the English pronunciation of the word, not the Larousse pronunciation
18:34:23 <boily> oh. if you want the diverged version... I'd go with -ween.
18:35:14 <Taneb> Here's some handy advice for future people! Don't procrastinate applying for university accommodation!
18:36:07 <oerjan> <kmc> U+18B96 GEORGE WASHINGTON'S FACE <-- i'm suddenly imagining some code that secretly makes printers print perfect quality bills
18:37:31 <boily> oerjan: you'd need different codes for all the inks that compose a bank note.
18:37:32 <kmc> there should be a codepoint for the EURion constellation too
18:37:37 <Taneb> I've just had to pretty much say "I don't care where I live"
18:38:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you ensure your rdiff-backups are consistent? Do you do some lvm snapshotting or some such=
18:39:06 <boily> Taneb: who knows. maybe you'll get a very nice view of the campus, and the stars at night?
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18:39:35 <Taneb> But it will be hard to see with eyes full of tears
18:40:06 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't think future people are able to apply for university accomodation. maybe you should tell their parents instead.
18:40:32 <Taneb> oerjan, it doesn't apply right now
18:40:36 <Taneb> It's future advice
18:41:19 <boily> ah... the days of being a student...
18:42:17 <Vorpal> I lived at home during university, it was close enough for me. About 20 minutes of commute by car, about 45 by bus
18:42:19 <kmc> shachaf: what about french fries in shawarma wraps
18:42:57 <Roujo> boily: There's no pronounciation guide in the Larousse =P
18:43:03 <Roujo> Try a Robert instead =P
18:43:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, it's a couple of hours by train for me
18:43:17 <Taneb> And I'm not spending £30 a day to get to university
18:43:22 <Vorpal> Taneb, that wound be annoying yes
18:44:20 <boily> Roujo: I know. I'm cheap, and roberts are too costly :p
18:45:24 <Vorpal> Holy shit, I'm glad I used lvm everywhere now. LVM snapshots look super-awesome for doing system backups.
18:46:22 <boily> bacula all the way!
18:46:40 <boily> because nothing beats having to juggle tapes for backuping your stuff!
18:46:53 <Vorpal> boily, isn't bacula super-enterprisy?
18:47:14 <Vorpal> And does it only support tapes?
18:47:27 <Vorpal> I'll most likely be using rdiff-backup once the new external HDDs arrive
18:47:44 <boily> no, it's very geeky, with all the configuration files and settings and dæmons and twekable configurable behaviours.
18:48:18 <boily> and it supports just about any form of storage. I wouldn't be surprised if someone hooked a robotic arm with a sharpie duct taped to it and some paper reams to bacula.
18:48:42 <Vorpal> What I read about it, it sounded enterprisy
18:48:44 <kmc> Vorpal: I admin'd a machine with several thousand LVM snapshots, which caused the kernel to take several hours to boot
18:48:52 <kmc> I dunno if that's fixed or if it matters at smaller numbers of snapshots
18:49:03 <kmc> but it was super painful
18:49:04 <Vorpal> kmc, why would you ever do that?
18:49:09 <boily> kmc: what the fungot... how do you achieve that?
18:49:10 <fungot> boily: san. sir thomas louell, is the beginning of the day,
18:49:28 <boily> fungot: not quite. it's 14:48 here.
18:49:29 <fungot> boily: iago. is't come to this great accompt, on your charge, whereof you cannot easily purge yourself. i do demand, if you suspect the king will labour still to save his life.
18:49:37 <metasepia> iago definition: the villain of Shakespeare's tragedy '''Othello'''.
18:49:44 <kmc> Vorpal: a bunch of similar VMs as COW snapshots of a single Linux install
18:50:07 <Vorpal> kmc, Heh. Not sure several thousand VMs on a single machine is a good idea anyway
18:50:15 <kmc> they weren't all running at once...........
18:50:26 <kmc> but we needed to quickly boot a nearly arbitrary subset of them
18:50:33 <Vorpal> Anyway why did it make the kernel boot so slow?
18:50:54 <Vorpal> Oh, I assume it was reported then?
18:51:14 <Vorpal> I can not imagine a use case for quickly starting a subset of the machines.
18:52:10 <kmc> i'm sorry that your imagination is bad
18:52:26 <boily> `? vorpal's imagination
18:52:28 <HackEgo> vorpal's imagination? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:52:44 <kmc> we were testing rebootless kernel updates
18:52:55 -!- ^v has changed nick to dan200.
18:53:24 <Vorpal> Ah, that makes sense then indeed
18:53:36 <Vorpal> kmc, You were working on that hot patch project, whatever the name was?
18:53:41 <kmc> we supported like a dozen distribution-versions (e.g. "RHEL 5" or "Debian Squeeze") but each of these has published hundreds of kernel packages in different versions and flavors
18:53:51 <kmc> Vorpal: Ksplice. yeah, I worked there for 8 months, until they got bought by Oracle
18:54:02 <Vorpal> Ouch, Oracle got them too?
18:54:20 <boily> kmc: you worked for ksplice? neat!
18:54:54 <kmc> it was neat
18:57:13 <Vorpal> Hm doing consistent backups of postgresql is non-trivial it appears. Interesting
18:57:39 <olsner> my OS shall have seamless online kernel upgrades
18:58:13 <Vorpal> olsner, wait, when did you turn into elliott?
18:58:38 <Vorpal> Anyway I assume this is only the case for minor fixes? Or major upgrades too?
18:59:54 <boily> Vorpal: everyone is elliott, fsvo elliott.
19:00:53 <kmc> Vorpal: what's only the case?
19:01:35 <Vorpal> kmc, wrt olsner's statement
19:02:03 <kmc> olsner's statement that olsner's OS shall have seamless online kernel upgrades?
19:02:04 <olsner> Vorpal: well, I'd like it to handle all kinds of upgrades ... but the old and new kernel have to be "compatible" to do some kind of handoff, and perhaps it won't be practical to make *all* pairs of versions compatible
19:02:25 <Vorpal> olsner, you are actually making an OS?
19:02:47 <kmc> olsner: have youread the Ksplice paper? http://www.ksplice.com/doc/ksplice.pdf
19:02:54 <elliott> olsner was making an OS before I was
19:03:03 <kmc> before it was cool
19:03:16 <olsner> Vorpal: actually, I'm really only making a kernel
19:03:46 <kmc> anyway Ksplice does patches we considered "important" but not whole upgrades e.g. 3.10 to 3.11, which would be thousands of patches
19:03:49 <Vorpal> olsner, pretty cool still
19:04:00 <Vorpal> olsner, how usable is it at this point?
19:04:06 <kmc> most of the "important" patches are security fixes, and most security fixes are very localized changes e.g. adding a NULL pointer check somewhere
19:04:10 <kmc> because fuck C, etc.
19:04:19 <kmc> so those patches the tool can handle totally automatically
19:04:21 <olsner> Vorpal: approximately "not" usable
19:04:35 <Vorpal> olsner, is there even code for it?
19:04:49 <kmc> but some human intervention is needed to recognize the patches that can't be handled automatically (e.g. because they change the shape of a data structure) and deal with it accordingly
19:04:54 <kmc> and we had a variety of strategies for doing so
19:05:09 <elliott> it would be nice to see a kernel properly designed to handle what ksplice did without all the fuss
19:05:10 <Vorpal> kmc, going through all instances of a structure and updating it?
19:05:28 <kmc> I think the figure was 85% ish can be done automatically, and we almost never had an important patch that we plain couldn't do
19:05:30 <elliott> (yet another excuse for me to indulge in my operating-systems-in-exotic-languages fetish)
19:05:43 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah you can do that
19:05:50 <kmc> harder if the patch introduces a new field in a struct
19:05:59 <Vorpal> kmc, I imagine it can be a pain if a patch adds an extra entry to a central scheduler data structure maintained by RCU or some such :P
19:06:35 <Vorpal> And having RCU won't help when you need to change the layout
19:06:53 <Vorpal> kmc, do you stop all execution on all cores while patching? I would guess yes?
19:07:16 <Vorpal> Also what do you do when you would need to move code to fit in that extra null check?
19:07:36 <Vorpal> Just make the function call a different function instead?
19:07:41 <Vorpal> And put all the code there?
19:08:18 <kmc> we stop execution on all cores using stop_machine() and also walk the kernel stack of every process to make sure none of the functions to be patched are currently active
19:08:37 <elliott> so do oracle still maintain the ksplice functionality for their linux thing
19:08:37 <kmc> Vorpal: patching a function is always accomplished by overwriting the beginning of the function with a jump to new code
19:08:57 <kmc> the new code is loaded as part of the update, by loading a kernel module in the ordinary way
19:09:00 <kmc> elliott: yep they do it
19:09:10 <elliott> (I know the ksplice website claims it's part of Oracle Linux now but it also hasn't been updated since 2011 and I don't trust anything they say)
19:09:11 <kmc> elliott: it's a big deal for them because it's like the only feature Oracle Linux has that Red Hat doesn't
19:09:31 <Vorpal> kmc, so redhat no longer get ksplices then?
19:09:46 <kmc> shachaf: do you approve
19:09:49 <kmc> Vorpal: correct
19:09:54 <Vorpal> kmc, couldn't they do it on their own, or is it patented or something silly like that?
19:09:56 <kmc> except legacy customers of ksplice maybe
19:10:07 <kmc> Vorpal: they could but they never did
19:10:18 <elliott> well it's presumably a ton of work
19:10:19 <kmc> the (old version of) core ksplice tools are open source
19:10:28 <Vorpal> kmc, the new ones aren't?
19:10:30 <kmc> but yes it's a ton of work and we had a ton of internal tools to help us do it
19:10:38 <elliott> and I suspect Red Hat can do other things to make more money that are less work
19:10:42 <kmc> Vorpal: the public repositories haven't seen updates in quite a while
19:10:52 <elliott> instead of duplicating something complicated enough to be its own company :P
19:10:54 <kmc> elliott: yeah like selling enterprise Java middleware, whatever the fuck that is
19:11:11 <kmc> well Red Hat is huge and Ksplice was tiny so shrug
19:11:13 <kmc> they could do it
19:11:18 <kmc> Red Hat has many of the top kernel people in the world
19:11:48 <kmc> (so does Oracle)
19:12:23 <Vorpal> Who pays Torvalds btw?
19:12:29 <Vorpal> Linux Foundation thingy still?
19:12:38 <kmc> I'm not sure
19:12:45 <kmc> I don't care enough to Google it for you
19:12:56 <elliott> "Running Red Hat Enterprise Linux? Get a taste of one of the many features Oracle Linux Premier Support has to offer with our free 30-day Ksplice trial for RHEL systems."
19:13:04 <elliott> uh can you pay for it if you're on RHEL
19:13:11 <elliott> or do they just say "ok, now switch to Oracle Linux"
19:13:14 <kmc> yeah you can pay for Oracle support for RHEL
19:13:21 <kmc> since they're basically the same thing ;P
19:13:22 <kmc> but you should read the Ksplice paper
19:13:29 <elliott> When your trial ends, we'd be happy to help you make the switch to Oracle Linux Premier Support so you can enjoy Ksplice for as long as you want.
19:13:52 <kmc> I think the coolest part of the Ksplice tech is the way we use a dynamic un-linker to find non-exported things (to patch them or refer to them from new code)
19:13:54 <elliott> "here is a free trial for a single feature of our operating system; once it's over we'll help you switch the entire thing"
19:14:11 <kmc> elliott: yeah well like I said, it's the only different feature ;)
19:14:31 <kmc> lunch, brb
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19:41:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't. But snapshots are certainly a possibility.
19:42:03 <Vorpal> I don't get the point of ubuntu vs. kubuntu vs. xubuntu... It just seems like a different default package selection + different logo package to me
19:42:16 <Vorpal> Or have I missed something?
19:42:48 -!- dan200 has changed nick to ^v.
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19:44:33 <oerjan> it's all due to bantu grammar, really. hth.
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19:47:28 <boily> that must be one of the best reasons to explain anything I have ever seen. when I'll have kids, I'll use that one profusely :D
19:49:18 <Vorpal> I don't think any other distro makes different versions based on the DE. Not that I know of at least
19:49:59 <Vorpal> It is usually, "select whichever DE the fuck you want" during the installer. Or defaults to one and then easily lets you change after
19:50:11 * Vorpal is running MATE on Debian atm for example.
19:51:18 <boily> am I the only fluxboxer left on the planet?
19:52:03 <Vorpal> I tried it, but I never found it to be the best alternative at the time.
19:52:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Mint, I think, technically has "Linux Mint N Xfce", "Linux Mint N KDE", etc. -- where N is the version number -- as different versions.
19:52:21 <fizzie> Not that there's probably any more difference between them than Xubuntu/etc.
19:52:26 <Vorpal> These days I use xfce or MATE, depending on the system specs
19:52:44 <fizzie> I think I used two "box" wm's.
19:53:02 <fizzie> Is "openbox" a window manager?
19:53:08 <fizzie> Apparently so. I think I've used it.
19:53:19 <fizzie> (Must've made a great impression.)
19:53:34 <boily> openbox is nice, except for the horrendous XML part.
19:53:37 <fizzie> I guess the other box might've been fluxbox for all I know.
19:53:40 <Vorpal> Well I started on KDE 2 (or early 3? I don't remember, whatever Red Hat 5 shipped with), then a bit of KDE 3 followed by Gnome 2. Followed by Xfce, followed by MATE
19:53:59 <fizzie> I started on fvwm95 and I'm not ashamed at all. (That might be a bit of a lie.)
19:54:20 <Vorpal> Well technically I believe I started on twm, trying to figure out what the hell was going wrong at the time
19:54:33 <Vorpal> Which wasn't easy since I was a newbie at that point
19:54:46 <boily> I started on KDE2 I think (whatever Mandrake had ten years ago), then hopped among the whole bunch like an addict trying to get high on something new and dubious.
19:55:00 <fizzie> fvwm95 wasn't too hard to figure out as a new user, unsurprisingly.
19:55:04 <boily> wm2 left a good impression. sadly, it was a *tad* underpowered.
19:55:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't that win9x-inspired or something?
19:55:32 <boily> fvwm is neat, but to have a successful configuration file you need to spend at least 25 hours per day on it.
19:55:38 <fizzie> It's a win9x-inspired variant of fvwm.
19:55:45 <Vorpal> boily, never used wm2, never heard of it. What is it about?
19:55:47 <boily> Vorpal: I feel icewm is the most windowsian of them all.
19:55:47 <fizzie> Then I tried out Enlightenment but my computer wasn't fast enough to run it.
19:56:00 <fizzie> (Then I just used WindowMaker for years.)
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19:56:24 <boily> Vorpal: I think you can still compile it, but you may have some difficulties as it was originally for X10 or somesuch.
19:56:25 <Vorpal> Enlightenment, the bling of the bling
19:56:39 <boily> Vorpal: http://xwinman.org/wm2.php
19:57:11 <boily> fizzie: I never got the hang of windowmaker. always got confused by that papercornerclip thingie.
19:57:37 <fizzie> boily: I remember the thingie, but not really much about the thingie.
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19:57:51 <fizzie> You could dock other little squares next to it or something.
19:57:58 <fizzie> At least I seem to recall there was a row of squares.
20:00:14 -!- ^v has changed nick to dan200.
20:02:21 <boily> fizzie: your becoming as clear and explicit as I am. I don't think that's a good thing. please remain understandable.
20:02:31 <metasepia> The form of a used before words beginning with a vowel or with an unpronounced h: an elephant; an hour.
20:02:40 <fizzie> Oh, it was just clumsy fingers.
20:02:59 <fizzie> As far as small keyboards go, this one is okay (personal opinion alert), but it's still small.
20:03:28 <fizzie> (I was aiming for ^a-n, actually.)
20:03:42 <boily> I'm looking for a nice and compact keyboard online, but everywhere I looked it was at least a hundred bucks to get an electro-mechanical piece of plastic.
20:04:50 <fizzie> boily: This is the Microsoft Wedge; but it's a small Bluetooth keyboard, which might well not be what you're looking for.
20:05:13 <fizzie> (I'm just using it with the Nexus 7 on trips.)
20:05:28 <boily> anything that has keys, no keypad, and a long tracking with quality keys.
20:06:00 <fizzie> Well, it's got the first two.
20:06:04 <boily> oh, and that I can play crawl on it. no weird key layout.
20:06:22 <fizzie> The cursor keys on this (and too many others) are slightly weird.
20:06:38 <boily> not a problem. I vimified everything on my machine a long time ago.
20:06:49 <fizzie> It's this [left][half-height up-and-down keys][right] kind of arrangement.
20:06:52 <boily> my cursor keys are gathering dust (as is the unused keypad)
20:07:16 <fizzie> It has this "keyboard cover turns into a tablet stand" feature which happens to fit the Nexus 7 (in portrait mode) quite nicely.
20:07:25 <olsner> ooh, xwinman.org was nice, there are all those window managers I've used and forgotten!
20:07:33 <fizzie> I don't know if I'd buy this for a general-purpose keyboard, though.
20:08:22 <boily> some cow orkers use a typematrix. I tried one for about an hour. the feeling of unfengshuiness that emanated from that horror... bletch!
20:08:39 <boily> I mean. having your 'b' key divorced from your 'n' key. the horror!
20:08:49 <boily> (I am snob and bourgeois and I like that.)
20:09:43 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
20:10:16 <fizzie> (I have to go to a funeral that's like 530-or-so kilometres from where I live, and it's at noon tomorrow, so we drove here tonight because leaving at something like 3-4am, driving for six-seven hours, going to a funeral, then driving back home the same day didn't sound very appealing.)
20:10:47 <fizzie> (Train schedules were a bit iffy.)
20:11:13 -!- augur has joined.
20:14:10 <Vorpal> fuck youtube. It is cutting videos short all the time for me nowdays.
20:14:25 <Vorpal> It is so bad that I stopped watching in my browser, now I use a script calling youtube-dl in a loop until the return code is 0, then watch in vlc
20:14:43 <Vorpal> atm, I have a terminal with maybe 10 or so lines like: ERROR: content too short (expected 263738018 bytes and served 15169721)
20:16:52 <fizzie> Bah: I ran this Android demo, and now I've got the kewlers middle-finger logo stuck in the alt-tab menu; it's like this tablet is giving me the finger.
20:17:20 <fizzie> Hm, or maybe the alt-tab menu follows the app history whateveritscalled dealie, where you can drag things off.
20:17:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, alt-tab on a tablet? What?
20:18:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm using it with an external keyboard. (See above for details, though they're not especially interesting.)
20:18:16 <Vorpal> Ah, I never tried alt-tab on my phone
20:18:26 <Vorpal> I should, I have an USB OTG cable
20:18:45 <olsner> fizzie: oh, alt-tab is mapped to the thingy? or did you have to add an app for that?
20:18:56 <fizzie> olsner: I didn't add anything, it was already there.
20:19:03 <fizzie> olsner: It's a different UI to it, though.
20:19:15 <fizzie> It only shows the last eight entries, and it's very much like the win9x alt-tab menu.
20:19:40 <fizzie> (For the record, this is a stock Android 4.2.2.)
20:20:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, Last 4 for me on my phone
20:26:38 <fizzie> (I also found it by accident, basically thought "it would be nice to be able to use something like alt-tab to switch programs" "hmm" "I guess I could try it".)
20:27:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you get non-US layout?
20:27:50 <fizzie> I don't know, this worked with its printed (Finnish) layout without doing anything.
20:27:57 <fizzie> It's a Bluetooth and not a USB keyboard, though.
20:28:35 <Vorpal> Hm can't get past the pattern lock with the keyboard XD
20:28:52 <fizzie> Settings / Language and Input seems to have a "Physical keyboard" entry for it, at least.
20:29:19 <Vorpal> which android version?
20:30:00 <fizzie> (And the keyboard was BT, if you missed that.)
20:30:05 <Vorpal> Isn't Nexus 7 on 4.3 now?
20:30:17 <fizzie> It is, but I haven't bothered to update yet.
20:30:27 <fizzie> (Also I've heard rumours there's worse battery life on 4.3.)
20:33:47 <elliott> does anyone know how to put scissor switch keycaps back on properly
20:34:23 <elliott> this is especially annoying because only half of it came off and taking off the other half looks unwise :/
20:34:25 <Vorpal> elliott, you need to hook them on from one end usually and then press down the other end to clip that end on
20:34:41 <elliott> pressing down from the other end not so successful
20:34:47 <fizzie> I've always understood the correct answer is "with great difficulty".
20:34:55 <elliott> maybe I can take a picture
20:35:21 <Vorpal> elliott, well if it was the wrong end that got lose you might need to take it off entirely and put it back
20:35:23 <fizzie> (Though what Vorpal described more or less worked on the one keyboard where I had to do it.)
20:35:38 <Vorpal> the method I described worked fine on my old ibook and also my thinkpad
20:35:46 <elliott> the other end looks pretty scarily attached (as in I am not sure I could reattach it if it came off)
20:35:49 <Vorpal> On the ibook I took them off once to clean the bloody thing
20:35:50 <elliott> will try to take a picture later
20:36:24 <Vorpal> elliott, The spacebar and possibly some other big keys usually have a metal bar under as well that need to hook into some slots
20:36:49 <fizzie> The space bar in my iBook cracked so that there was this long diagonal cut in it, it was kind of weird.
20:36:56 <fizzie> Never had that happen to a key before.
20:37:22 <fizzie> It didn't go all the way from top-to-bottom, there was just this \ there.
20:37:33 <Vorpal> I imagine it would be much harder to deattach or reattach keys if you have those spaced keys with stuff inbetween?
20:37:33 <elliott> oh nice, it looks like I can have either end connected
20:37:43 <elliott> if I push it it switches which end is connected, if I pull it it goes back
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20:38:22 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway it is usually one end that have the hooks (the upper in both cases that I had), and the other end that has the clip on bit
20:38:23 <elliott> uh is there a simple way to take photos on Windows so I can show this
20:38:54 <Vorpal> Or what are you talking about
20:38:57 <elliott> did you know there is a computer operating system by Microsoft Corporation called Windows
20:39:13 <Vorpal> You can't easily take photos with a fixed built in web cam I'd assume
20:39:21 <Vorpal> or do you have a freestanding one?
20:39:31 <metasepia> lemur definition: any of various arboreal chiefly nocturnal prosimian primates (superfamily Lemuroidea) that were formerly widespread but are now largely confined to Madagascar and that usually have a longish muzzle, large eyes, very soft woolly fur, and a long furry tail.
20:40:21 <Vorpal> elliott, If it is fixed to the top of the screen, I would doubt it can catch the keyboard (unless it is not the built in keyboard in the laptop
20:40:37 <elliott> the built in one is also broken
20:41:02 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway we would probably need a high quality macro to make out the details of those tiny little switches
20:41:46 <Vorpal> Anyway I don't know how to take a photo with the webcam
20:42:11 <fizzie> You can open a Skype chat and ask the other end to take a screenshot. :p
20:42:19 <Vorpal> Also I need to sleep. Going to work tomorrow. Getting in the car at around 06:50.
20:42:47 <fizzie> I should probably sleep too, on account of the aforementioned funeral.
20:42:47 <kmc> good night Vorpal
20:42:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch what happened?
20:43:17 <Vorpal> And condolences and so on
20:43:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was something kind of expected -- dying at the age of 87 doesn't quite count as a life tragically cut short -- so we're not all that shocked about it.
20:44:12 <fizzie> But it would still probably be bad form to drop the coffin out of tiredness or something.
20:44:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, Quite, no urn?
20:44:25 <elliott> does this photo-taking program really want to run fullscreen
20:44:30 <fizzie> (I'll have to be part of the people carrying the thing.)
20:45:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: There was a regular gravestone apparently already waiting.
20:45:25 <fizzie> (Where her husband is buried.)
20:45:34 <Vorpal> You need special gravestone for urn burial?
20:45:47 <elliott> accidentally removed the key
20:45:52 <elliott> while trying to hold it to take a picture
20:45:58 <fizzie> No, I mean, there was a gravestone at the regular cemetery, so I guess she wanted to be buried there.
20:46:26 <fizzie> (I think urns get deposited in a different place? I don't know, I haven't killed... I mean, been in very many funerals.)
20:46:36 <Vorpal> Okay, but don't they support cremation at the regular cemetery?
20:46:40 <elliott> okay so are you supposed toattach it from the bottom or the top
20:46:52 <elliott> fizzie: (I think Vorpal is doing the moralising thing.)
20:46:58 <Vorpal> elliott, ah, on my keyboard it is top to bottom I believe
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20:47:50 <Vorpal> elliott, no, I'm just confused, as I never heard of anyone not getting cremated these days. I thought it was pretty rare to skip that. Or is that just a Swedish thing?
20:48:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I didn't really have much to do with this side of the thing. But I was under the impression that they only bury regular coffins in the "standard" cemetery spots, and have a different place for urns.
20:48:38 <fizzie> And cremation certainly isn't the default in Finland.
20:48:55 <Vorpal> Interesting how customs differ between cultures
20:49:03 <Vorpal> But I guess then that is what makes a culture
20:49:06 <elliott> uh I hope I haven't broken this
20:49:21 <Bike> europe is weird
20:49:22 <Vorpal> elliott, I found them fairly easy to reattach
20:49:35 <fizzie> "Scandinavian countries' cremation rate vary from Finland's and Norway's 36% to Sweden's 70% and Denmark's 76%."
20:49:53 <boily> ain't Estonia also in Scandinavia?
20:50:10 <Bike> Vorpal: less than half of dead here are cremated
20:50:10 <fizzie> boily: Haven't you read satw? Certainly not. :p
20:50:15 <Vorpal> I always confuse Scandinavia and Nordic
20:50:20 <elliott> now it's back to how it was when it popped off a little
20:50:33 <elliott> can still switch which part it's attached to
20:50:41 <boily> fizzie: of course I do read satw. it's just a personal opinion on the matter :D
20:51:02 <elliott> slightly worried that this is not going to be a thing that is fixable
20:51:09 <Vorpal> elliott, guess some bit of plastic is slightly broken then?
20:51:19 <elliott> well it attaches perfectly to both ends individually
20:51:22 <elliott> just... not at the same time
20:51:50 <Vorpal> elliott, you should take an xray of other keys and compare
20:52:00 <elliott> I literally just switched to this one a couple of days ago
20:52:09 <fizzie> Finland's inclusion in the term "Scandinavia" is also quite debated.
20:52:09 <Vorpal> elliott, so warranty then?
20:52:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it a Nordic country then?
20:52:34 <elliott> well if I get it fixed then I'll need a new keyboard to use in the interim
20:52:38 <elliott> so I might as well just buy a new one if anything
20:52:59 <Vorpal> elliott, just go back to the shop and demand a new one?
20:53:10 <elliott> I guess you could argue that physical stores exist
20:53:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: I would think it's at least that. But some do count us as part of Scandinavia too.
20:53:37 <Vorpal> elliott, you could use an on-screen keyboard meanwhile?
20:53:46 <fizzie> Even though we're not all that much on the Scandinavian Peninsula, except maybe the northern bit.
20:54:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm sure that is what Windows 9 will use, judging by the way of windows 8
20:54:08 <elliott> okay yeah, time to just get used to my f key being slightly fucked for now I guess
20:54:16 <Phantom_Hoover> was satw right about scotland getting a free pass into the whole nordic thing
20:54:24 <Bike> slightly ducked 4 now
20:54:30 <Vorpal> elliott, what keyboard model (so I can avoid?)
20:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not voting yes on a referendum that puts me in a room with the swedes
20:54:53 <boily> itertools.groupby() is completely brain damaged.
20:54:56 <Bike> i think i'd prefer a room with swedes to a room with england
20:55:29 <elliott> Vorpal: uh this is probably more me than the keyboard
20:55:36 <elliott> but it's some Kensington scissor-switch thing that I doubt you'd buy anyway
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20:55:42 <Vorpal> elliott, how fucking hard do you hit those keys!?
20:56:04 <elliott> I don't, I just habitually poke my fingers in the gaps
20:56:16 <Vorpal> that is pretty stupid yes
20:57:01 <Vorpal> elliott, my old keyboard lasted for.... 11 years? Then some sort of controller broke. It was PS/2.
20:57:16 <Vorpal> Like a third of the keys just stopped working
20:57:36 <Vorpal> I doubt my current USB keyboard will last as long. Build quality isn't what it used to be.
21:01:47 <elliott> god dammit, it got more broken
21:08:09 <kmc> rust stdlib has a type named Finallyalizer
21:09:49 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/3575
21:10:41 <kmc> i think so
21:13:58 <boily> theres a bottom milestone. heh.
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22:02:04 <boily> let's hope the metro will work tonight...
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23:08:34 <pikhq> Gregor: How... how exactly do you like Moxie?
23:10:45 <Gregor> pikhq: Because it is the most delicious thing ever made.
23:11:10 <pikhq> Its flavor is best described as "medicinal"..
23:11:54 <elliott> try holding your nose when testing it for the true Gregor experience
23:12:11 <pikhq> This is a good call.
23:12:18 <pikhq> It probably fnarfs better than it tastes.
23:12:41 <Koen_> I don't think any of you is passing the turing test right now
23:12:43 <pikhq> It does in fact fnarf better than it tastes.
23:13:16 <pikhq> Koen_: Fnarf. Noun. That particular sense analogous to taste that only anosmics experience regularly.
23:13:47 <pikhq> Yep, the fnarf of it isn't bad.
23:14:30 <Bike> did you like just drink some
23:14:36 * kmc juggles some chainsaws
23:15:07 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, I found a bottle of Moxie and purchased it on a whim.
23:15:39 <pikhq> Taste-wise, well. It's better than Tentacle Grape?
23:16:20 <pikhq> I've no idea how that fnarfs, but it tastes like tentacle grape.
23:17:19 <pikhq> Gregor: Is it not meant to be served cold or something?
23:17:31 <Gregor> Enjoy cold with deliciousness.
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