←2013-08-11 2013-08-12 2013-08-13→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:00:21 <Bike> uh i was at the other end before and nobody cared then!!
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00:02:10 <shachaf> yes well it wasn't the place to be then!!
00:02:12 <shachaf> now it is
00:03:01 <Bike> are you insulting me
00:03:12 <tswett> "At least two roads run concurrently with their own opposite direction." The obvious question is, why not just skip that part?
00:03:59 <Bike> skip?
00:04:08 <Bike> it's like a north-south and a south-north road both turn west. no big deal
00:04:33 <tswett> Yeah, but if there's a single road carrying both directions of a single route, then the route must have a cul-de-sac.
00:06:11 <Bike> it could be like a half diamond arrangement.
00:06:31 <Bike> north route goes up, turns west at a corner, later turns north by northeast, rejoins southern self later up
00:07:29 <tswett> Uh, lemme think about that.
00:09:02 <tswett> I can see, like, sort of a rectangle arrangement.
00:09:29 <kmc> zzo38: LED accent lighting for my living room
00:09:40 <tswett> Beyond the north and south ends of the rectangle, you just have the northbound part of the freeway on the east side and the southbound part on the west side, like usual.
00:10:31 <tswett> But from the south end of the rectangle, the northbound road turns left and follows the south edge of the rectangle west, then turns right and follows the west edge of the rectangle north.
00:10:47 <tswett> Then it turns right again, following the north edge east, and finally turns left again and continues on north.
00:11:23 <tswett> So traffic goes clockwise around the rectangle, and the north and south edges of the rectangle are wrong-way concurrencies.
00:12:05 <tswett> *Why* they'd do that, I have no idea. Perhaps, say, the downtown part of the city is south of the rectangle, and there are a bunch of businesses west of the rectangle.
00:12:20 <tswett> People traveling out of the city are more likely to want to visit businesses along the way than people traveling into it.
00:13:05 <tswett> "Business" meaning a building providing a service to the public, rather than an office or factory.
00:16:29 <shachaf> Bike: huh? no
00:16:30 <Jafet> You just don't realize how great it is to be able to reverse direction without an interchange
00:16:37 <shachaf> Bike: it's the place to be because i'm here
00:16:54 <Bike> ok well bad timing
00:23:06 <oerjan> since the discussion started before 0 UTC, i should assume it is just coincidental that wikipedia has a highway as today's featured article
00:23:37 <oerjan> or maybe Gracenotes sneak peeked
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00:26:19 <shachaf> i heard Gracenotes has ""connections""
00:26:37 <oerjan> ooh
00:27:57 <Bike> they choose them in advance...
00:28:36 <shachaf> i thought they flipped a coin at midnight
00:28:40 <Jafet> Since the discussion is about highways, I should assume that oerjan didn't actually read the wikipedia main page for the fun of it
00:28:48 <shachaf> d4000000
00:28:48 <lambdabot> shachaf: 1443117
00:28:53 <shachaf> d100000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00:28:53 <lambdabot> shachaf: 73274656582344544685947877970172273676770
00:29:00 <shachaf> d1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00:29:00 <lambdabot> shachaf: 659790748428201985583386173652174207609455971330297358345175532...
00:29:07 <Jafet> I don't think they have that many featured articles.
00:29:09 <oerjan> itt Jafet is making some wrong assumptions
00:29:12 <Bike> ddddd5000
00:29:17 <Bike> sux imo
00:29:31 <Bike> apparently the next article is Barton Fink.
00:29:44 <Jafet> 2d4
00:29:44 <lambdabot> Jafet: 3+4 => 7
00:29:52 <Jafet> 1000000d2
00:29:52 <lambdabot> Jafet: 1500179
00:30:00 <Jafet> 1000000000000d2
00:30:00 <lambdabot> Jafet: 1500000345378
00:30:27 <oerjan> 10d4
00:30:27 <lambdabot> oerjan: 29
00:30:29 <oerjan> 5d4
00:30:30 <lambdabot> oerjan: 11
00:30:31 <monotone> tswett: The actual explanation for at least one of those cases is that it's between two interchanges that don't have full directional access.
00:30:33 <oerjan> 3d4
00:30:33 <lambdabot> oerjan: 3+3+1 => 7
00:30:36 <oerjan> 4d4
00:30:36 <lambdabot> oerjan: 10
00:31:19 <oerjan> Bike: NOOOOO NO SPOILERS
00:32:16 <monotone> https://maps.google.com/maps?vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&ll=40.428149,-80.025487&spn=0.009555,0.01929&t=m&z=16 # The route enters from the NE with I-376 and leaves to the SE with SR 51.
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00:54:36 <tswett> Bike: I'll ddddd5000 for you!
00:54:57 <tswett> Bike: 95
00:55:05 <Bike> Thx.
00:55:10 <tswett> Ywhwh.
00:58:48 <shachaf> @@ @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice @run (\[_,x] -> text $ 'd':x) . words $ @show @dice d5000
00:58:52 <lambdabot> shachaf: 27
00:59:43 <Bike> elegant.
01:00:49 <shachaf> hm i want to make a "thus spoke Bike" pun sometime
01:00:55 <shachaf> but there's no good time for it
01:00:59 <shachaf> so someone else can make it instead
01:05:55 <oerjan> i think that pun would just be tiresome
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01:08:46 <Gracenotes> oerjan, shachaf: I looked up Wrong Way Corrigan, because of watching a QI episode
01:08:51 <shachaf> oerjan: it wasn't meant to be a chain
01:09:09 <Gracenotes> there is a queue for front pages featured article, in fact, it goes many months into the future
01:09:36 <oerjan> shachaf: let's just gear down
01:10:25 <tswett> Hum, hum. What is 5, anyway? It's 1 + 4, and yet it's also 2 + 3...
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01:10:50 <oerjan> tswett: it's like addition isn't injective or something!
01:11:00 <tswett> Yeah!
01:11:01 <Bike> 5 is the holy
01:11:12 <Bike> do we really know five
01:11:16 <tswett> What's the one true pair of numbers that adds up to 5?
01:11:24 <oerjan> itt Bike is muslim
01:11:37 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it's 1 and 4. It can't be 2 and 3.
01:11:45 <Bike> blasphemer.
01:11:46 <shachaf> oerjan: you'll make me cranky
01:11:48 <oerjan> but 2 and 3 are prime!
01:11:50 <tswett> But then again, 5 is a Fibonacci number, by virtue of the fact that it's 2 + 3...
01:12:03 <zzo38> tswett: Zero and five.
01:12:04 <tswett> oerjan: who cares that it's the sum of two prime numbers?
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01:13:01 <shachaf> Bike's true Twitter account: https://twitter.com/ThePunBike
01:13:18 <oerjan> "In Cantonese, "five" sounds like the word "not" (character: 唔). When five appears in front of a lucky number, e.g. "58", the result is considered unlucky." chinese numerology just gets weirder.
01:13:33 <oerjan> tswett: primitive people!
01:13:37 <tswett> Help, what letter comes after Z?
01:13:43 <shachaf> W hth
01:13:43 <oerjan> tswett: Æ
01:13:47 <zzo38> tswett: In what alphabet?
01:13:52 <tswett> zzo38: the English one.
01:13:54 <oerjan> also don't listen to the swedes hth
01:13:56 <tswett> Wait, I remember. It's &.
01:15:34 <nooodl> > succ 'Z'
01:15:35 <lambdabot> '['
01:15:50 <Bike> and there you have it.
01:16:04 <shachaf> Hmm, clearly SZ comes after Z.
01:16:06 <zzo38> nooodl: I think they meant the English alphabet, not the ASCII alphabet, isn't it?
01:16:15 <tswett> Right, the English alphabet.
01:16:19 <tswett> I'm going with Æ.
01:16:24 <tswett> thx
01:16:30 <shachaf> @let data Nat = Z | S Nat deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord,Typeable)
01:16:31 <lambdabot> Defined.
01:16:37 <shachaf> Oops.
01:16:38 <shachaf> @undefine
01:16:38 <lambdabot> Undefined.
01:16:42 <shachaf> @let data Nat = Z | S Nat deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord,Enum)
01:16:42 <lambdabot> .L.hs:142:41:
01:16:42 <lambdabot> Can't make a derived instance of `Enum Nat':
01:16:42 <lambdabot> `Nat'...
01:16:47 <shachaf> Bah.
01:16:50 <tswett> P x y z æ = x z (y z æ)
01:16:51 <shachaf> Useless.
01:17:02 <Bike> why can't it make Enum?
01:17:17 <nooodl> consider: w x y z
01:17:32 <shachaf> Because the type isn't, what's-it-called. An enumeration.
01:17:51 <Bike> oh. i guess.
01:18:00 <nooodl> how does it derive Ord
01:18:03 <zzo38> If you are using non-ASCII alphabets then you can even use Greek or whatever too you aren't even limited to AE ligature and so on.
01:18:14 <Bike> maybe it just didn't get to the Ord error.
01:18:20 <shachaf> No problem with Ord.
01:18:20 <tswett> I demand that it be referred to in Unicode as a Latin letter.
01:18:22 <tswett> .u æ
01:18:27 <tswett> Hey Phennies. I'm talking to you.
01:19:02 <nooodl> @let data Nat = Z | S Nat deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord)
01:19:03 <shachaf> compare Z Z = EQ; compare Z (S _) = LT; compare (S _) Z = GT; compare (S x) (S y) = compare x y
01:19:03 <lambdabot> Defined.
01:19:09 <zzo38> OK, call it a Latin letter, if you want to
01:19:20 <shachaf> Are you asking about the rules for deriving Ord in general?
01:19:22 <nooodl> shachaf: wouldn't switching LT and GT give you a valid Ord instance?
01:19:35 <shachaf> Yes, but not the one it derives.
01:19:37 <zzo38> nooodl: That would be the reverse ordering; it is still valid
01:19:38 <Bike> wouldn't that quesiton be true of like any ord instance
01:19:47 <coppro> yes
01:20:07 <nooodl> i guess i am talking about the rules for deriving Ord in general, yeah.
01:20:10 <zzo38> Many classes can be made a backward instance from the existing one, such as order, monoid, applicative
01:20:45 <nooodl> hmmm
01:20:46 <tswett> I guess P x y z = B (x z) (y z), so P x y = S (B B x) y, so P x = S (B B x), so P = B S (B B).
01:20:47 <nooodl> @undefine
01:20:47 <lambdabot> Undefined.
01:20:56 <shachaf> nooodl: I recommend seeing the Report for the exact rules.
01:21:02 <nooodl> @let data Nat = S Nat | Z deriving (Show,Read,Eq,Ord)
01:21:03 <lambdabot> Defined.
01:21:03 <shachaf> The order of the summands matters, thought.
01:21:06 <shachaf> s/..$/./
01:21:09 <nooodl> > S Z > Z
01:21:13 <lambdabot> False
01:21:23 <nooodl> "i get it"
01:21:26 <shachaf> (It also matters for Enum.)
01:21:49 <shachaf> @let newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall a. (f a -> a) -> a }
01:21:49 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TypeOperators is not enabled
01:21:52 <zzo38> I think it would be better making it you can deriving by macros instead of built-in. I think many things in Haskell ought be macros rather than built-in, would make them better.
01:21:52 <shachaf> wow
01:21:59 <coppro> you could even make data Rev = (Ord a) => Rev {getRev :: a}; instance (Ord a) => Ord (Rev a) where { compare = flip compare `on` Rev }
01:22:00 <shachaf> this is getting annoying
01:22:09 <coppro> err
01:22:12 <coppro> replace the last Rev with getRev
01:22:25 <tswett> But, on the other hand, we could just as well say P x y z = B (y z) (x z), meaning P x y = S (B B y) x, meaning P x = uhh hang on
01:22:26 <shachaf> You could, but why, when it's already in Data.Ord?
01:22:32 <zzo38> coppro: Yes you can make things like that for other classes backward too
01:26:30 <tswett> P x = B (C S x) (B B), so P = B (C B (B B)) (C S). Yeah, I like the other one better.
01:27:13 <tswett> So what does it mean to do something five times? Do you do it twice and then thrice, or thrice and then twice? I'm pretty sure you do it thrice and then twice.
01:27:44 <tswett> And what's 6? Is it two threes, or three twos? Pretty sure it's three twos.
01:27:59 <zzo38> You do it once, and then once more time, and then once more time after that, and then one more time, and then one more. Now it is five times.
01:28:43 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, but is that once and then (once and then (once and then (once and then once))), or (((once and then once) and then once) and then once) and then once, or ((once and then once) and then once) and then (once and then once), or what?
01:30:02 <zzo38> tswett: It doesn't matter because it is associative.
01:30:10 <tswett> Hmmm.
01:30:17 <tswett> You're probably right.
01:34:31 <tswett> What's 7? It must be what you get when you start with 1 and then double it and increment it twice.
01:35:23 <tswett> How about 10? Ooh, I hate that number.
01:35:25 <zzo38> Well, I suppose there are many ways to make seven, but really it is (1+1+1+1+1+1+1).
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01:44:51 <tswett> 10 is, of course, 5 choose 2. Though it happens to also be 5 *times* 2.
01:45:10 <shachaf> kmc: with, like, a restful json api and mobile apps and stuff
01:45:18 <shachaf> v. local
01:45:33 <shachaf> also if you make a web interface it should be on the public website
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02:26:13 <zzo38> For the Uselessness RPG 1 (the one with the picture), I was using OHRRPHCE but I decided not to, for a few reasons, one is that, they make some bad assumptions, such as that the player charaters are always human and the non player characters are never thieves and that an attack cannot have a script in it.
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02:51:32 <tswett> All right, let's write some strong AI.
02:53:16 <zzo38> Strong AI of what?
02:54:03 <tswett> Of... rationality?
02:56:43 <Bike> What's that
02:58:07 <tswett> An artificial intelligence that could successfully perform any intellectual task that a human being can.
02:58:11 <tswett> (To quote Wikipedia.)
02:58:53 <Bike> i meant rationality.
02:59:46 <tswett> Oh. Uh, the ability to come to conclusions that are reliably correct.
03:00:02 <Bike> That sounds pretty hard to quantify.
03:00:11 <tswett> Yeah, kinda.
03:00:18 <zzo38> That would be better than an intellectual task that a human being can.
03:00:24 <zzo38> (in some cases)
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03:24:18 <zzo38> Someone told me some of my ideas were good but I needed to write it out more carefully; there were also many defects in there system so I wrote those too, and I put them into all one file so I can just post the URL. However, I tried to tell them of these defect and society/gods but I can't because system is defective! I cannot access it at all because it is defective!
03:25:31 <Bike> are you going to have to drink hemlock
03:26:39 <zzo38> I don't expect so.
03:27:15 <kmc> zzo38 is mad as hell and not going to take it anymore
03:28:05 <pikhq> Y'know, some drugs have really shitty side effects.
03:28:14 <pikhq> "Spontaneous tendon rupture" is up there.
03:28:19 <zzo38> pikhq: Such as hemlock?
03:28:21 <coppro> pikhq: see, i try to avoid drugs
03:28:29 <coppro> you people are all crazy
03:28:30 <Bike> pikhq: what, seriously?
03:28:51 <pikhq> Bike: Yes, there's an antibiotic that can cause that.
03:29:10 <pikhq> coppro: See, when your testicles are in serious pain you're not likely to consider such things.
03:29:14 <coppro> pikhq: fair
03:29:29 <coppro> and I'd probably consider it at that point
03:29:35 <coppro> not a fan of recreational drugs
03:29:43 <pikhq> "Infection of the testicles" is also a shitty thing.
03:29:52 <pikhq> I'm not much of a recreational drug guy either.
03:30:06 <kmc> :(
03:30:10 <kmc> re testicles
03:30:19 <pikhq> Fortunately, that's resolved.
03:30:24 <kmc> don't rupture your tendons and/or testicles
03:30:29 <Bike> testicular torsion
03:30:50 <pikhq> I'm just getting random skeletomuscular pain from the antibiotics. Which is a side effect which can show up fully 6 months later.
03:31:03 <pikhq> And hoping I don't actually rip a tendon.
03:31:07 <coppro> pikhq: oh, I thought you were
03:31:16 <coppro> well, best of luck with your tendons
03:31:39 <pikhq> coppro: Nope. I imbibe in alcohol in small quantities, and caffeine in absurd quantities.
03:32:06 <pikhq> And by "small quantities" I mean "I don't think I've ever had enough alcohol in my system that I could be charged with a DUI if I drove".
03:32:39 <Fiora> kmc: http://ix.cs.uoregon.edu/~butler/pubs/acsac12.pdf oh gosh, this is amazing
03:32:40 <Bike> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPLEDGE my personal favorite side effect: so bad you have to register with a national registry to take it
03:32:43 <Bike> it is an acne cure.
03:32:57 <pikhq> Oh wow.
03:33:03 <Fiora> they wrote a MapReduce implementation that runs off of cloud web brosers like opera mini
03:33:06 <Fiora> *browsers
03:33:21 <kmc> Fiora: :D
03:34:00 <pikhq> Levofloxacin has some potentially frightening ones.
03:34:15 <pikhq> In rare cases it even kills your nerves!
03:34:37 <pikhq> In more common cases it just causes temporary paresthesias.
03:34:41 <Bike> wassat
03:34:58 <pikhq> Y'know the feeling when a limb goes to sleep?
03:34:59 <pikhq> That.
03:35:12 <pikhq> That's also the first sign that your nerves are dying.
03:35:18 <Bike> oh.
03:35:38 <pikhq> So, yes. It has one non-serious side effect and a serious-as-fuck side effect that look initially similar.
03:38:44 <pikhq> Also neat is that the first sign of tendons rupturing is cracking in the joint.
03:38:51 <pikhq> My joints crack a lot anyways!
03:39:28 <pikhq> Suddenly I've become an old man. Woe. :P
03:39:56 <Fiora> what's the deal with joints cracking anyways, like, why does that happen
03:40:27 <Bike> gnomes
03:40:37 <pikhq> Temporary partial vacuum being created in the fluid in the joints.
03:40:48 <Bike> by gnomes
03:40:49 <pikhq> The sound is the bubble of vacuum collapsing.
03:41:20 <Fiora> Huh
03:49:07 <kmc> i thought for a sec you were talking about false vacuum collapse
03:49:48 <Fiora> goodbye knee and body and planet and local group
03:50:28 <kmc> :3
03:50:39 <elliott> I thought the cause of joints cracking was subject to some debate
03:50:53 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_joints#Causes
03:51:13 <oerjan> the planets that debated it too furiously were wiped out
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03:51:41 <elliott> Medical doctor Donald Unger cracked the knuckles of his left hand every day for more than sixty years, but he did not crack the knuckles of his right hand. No arthritis or other ailments formed in either hand, earning him the 2009 Ig Nobel Prize in Medicine, a parody of the Nobel Prize.[8]
03:51:50 <elliott> that must have taken some discipline
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04:04:50 <kmc> learning about infosec is bad because then whenever a program crashes you wonder whether it was an exploit attempt
04:05:07 <zzo38> That's pretty good, and something to earn the Ig Nobel Prize for it looks like. Did he nominate himself or did someone else do so?
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04:07:33 <zzo38> Has anyone ever won the Nobel Prize and Ig Nobel Prize for the same thing? (There are some people that have won both prizes but for different things.)
04:08:06 <Bike> no.
04:08:50 <kmc> who has done what you said
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04:12:22 <zzo38> I think I should put these things I have on the paper for Uselessness RPG game also on some wiki, to make collaboration (because I also want idea/etc from other people too). Therefore, there is two copies. What wiki can this be put into, please?
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04:40:16 <zzo38> Would any existing one you know, work? Do you think the main Hackiki should work?
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04:52:55 <shachaf> ion: You use gnome-terminal, right? When you open a new terminal (e.g. Ctrl-Shift-N), does it open in the current directory or in ~?
04:54:18 <ion> shachaf: The current one.
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04:56:11 <shachaf> It stopped doing that for me for some reason.
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04:56:19 <shachaf> Maybe because of my recent apt-get upgrade?
04:58:47 <shachaf> Hmm, https://wiki.gnome.org/Terminal/FAQ#How_can_I_make_new_terminals_start_in_the_working_directory_of_the_current_terminal.3F
05:00:19 <shachaf> OK, it works with that script.
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07:30:24 <Taneb> Ugh
07:30:37 <Taneb> GEDCOM recommends using the ANSEL character set
07:30:38 <katla> hi
07:32:14 <Taneb> I suppose it does say they'll switch "eventually to UNICODE" and will only use ANSEL "until multi-byte handling becomes more common"
07:32:31 <Taneb> (the standard was written in '96, so I suppose multi-byte handling is a tad more common now)
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08:38:11 <Taneb> I am now terrified
08:38:31 <fizzie> @wn terrify
08:38:33 <lambdabot> *** "terrify" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:38:33 <lambdabot> terrify
08:38:33 <lambdabot> v 1: fill with terror; frighten greatly [syn: {terrify},
08:38:33 <lambdabot> {terrorize}, {terrorise}]
08:38:43 <Jafet> That's terrific
08:39:00 <Taneb> There are two universities looking at my exam results (which I have not seen) and deciding whether I'm worthy to attend
08:40:50 <fizzie> `run grep -h "that's terrible" wisdom/*
08:40:51 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
08:41:27 <fizzie> When will they finish looking?
08:41:54 <Taneb> fizzie, I found out their decisions on Thursday
09:13:56 <Gracenotes> that's aweful
09:14:13 <Taneb> It's the norm in England
09:14:59 <Taneb> Really, all it means for me is that I get my exam results at the same time as finding out if they're good enough to get into uni
09:15:04 <Gracenotes> that's awsome?
09:15:53 <Taneb> ...
09:16:16 <Taneb> You spelt both "awful" and "awesome" incorrectly in precisely opposite ways
09:16:57 <olsner> Taneb: it is possible it was done intentionally
09:17:09 <oklopol> no it's not
09:17:09 <Taneb> olsner, even so!
09:17:12 <oklopol> nothing is possible
09:17:20 <Taneb> It makes me queasy
09:17:24 <olsner> oklopol: sorry, that's not possible
09:20:41 <Gracenotes> 'aweful' can mean good, because you are full of awe
09:21:00 <Gracenotes> 'terrific' can mean bad, because you are full of terry?
09:21:38 <Gracenotes> so goes the semantic treadmill.
09:21:58 <Jafet> Awful Lee Terry fic
09:22:30 <shachaf> Awful Lee/Terry fic?
09:22:45 <Taneb> Jafet, ew
09:23:30 <Jafet> I'd read it
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09:23:51 <shachaf> Is there anything you wouldn't read?
09:24:35 <Jafet> Things that read themselves
09:42:12 * Gracenotes reads himself
09:45:10 <katla> self reading book?
09:46:58 <Gracenotes> a self-ambulating person
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13:06:47 <boily> good why is there cyrillicised english in the topic morning!
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13:13:18 <ion> Ooh, i was able to read it fully. (I had infer some of the letters.)
13:13:45 <ion> I have never tried to learn the Cyrillic alphabet, but it seems some of it has stuck by itself.
13:21:29 <fizzie> I did a single course of Russian at the university, and got a 5 (of 5) for it; didn't really learn any of the language in question (except to say "is this place free?", the first sentence of the first chapter of the "textbook"), but the alphabet I still know.
13:22:18 <boily> I'm trying to learn Armenian, but I am still confused by most of their letters.
13:23:52 <fizzie> I'm trying to write some notes in plaintext, and need \hat{x} for a point estimate of x; tried both ^x and x^, and they both look really silly when I also need \hat{x}^2 in the notes.
13:24:16 <fizzie> x^^2 is a no go, ^x^2 is almost as silly; (x^)^2 and (^x)^2 are passable but sill stilly.
13:24:20 <fizzie> Still silly.
13:24:44 <Deewiant> How about \hat{x}
13:24:52 <boily> $ \hat{x^2} $ doesn't work? (probably not. my off-the-head-latex is getting rusty.)
13:26:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't want the notes to look like LaTeX source.
13:26:30 <Deewiant> Why not?
13:26:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: "I just don't!"
13:27:25 <fizzie> boily: $\hat{x^2}$ would be a subtly different thing from $\hat{x}^2$, I think. (Both still probably render well in LaTeX.)
13:28:01 <katla> what about widehat
13:28:25 <Deewiant> fizzie: Use a instead of x and then you have â
13:28:38 <fizzie> katla: Okay, I think that might render even better, but it's still beside the point, which was about writing things that look good in plaintext.
13:28:50 <Deewiant> Or if you don't dislike combining characters, x̂
13:29:27 <fizzie> Deewiant: I... guess that might work. Or maybe I'll just call it Ex or something.
13:29:30 <Deewiant> The x̂ actually is more legible than the â in my font.
13:29:56 <fizzie> They're about the same here. (Both look like there's a bit of dust on the screen.)
13:30:42 <Deewiant> The â looks like dust but on the x it's actually quite clearly a circumflex
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13:48:14 <boily> yesterday I bought a d30 just to mess with my DM.
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13:53:19 <boily> I HAVE MY OUYA! :D
13:53:24 * boily squees like a fangirl
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14:11:12 <Roujo> boily: I wish I had mine >_>
14:11:22 <Roujo> Grats, though ^^
14:12:54 <Roujo> Did your tracking ever work?
14:14:05 <boily> tracking as in delivery? or tracking as in the touchpad on the controller?
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14:18:30 <Roujo> boily: Delivery
14:18:35 <Roujo> Since mine never showed anything
14:18:38 <Roujo> Still doesn't, really
14:18:41 <Roujo> And I'm still waiting
14:19:16 <boily> never had any problem with tracking. I just had it stolen from my doorstep, so I had to wait for amazon to deliver a new one.
14:19:32 <boily> this time, I'm at the office, and I hold the infamous console in my own real physical meaty hands :D
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14:35:22 <Roujo> That's cool =)
14:35:32 <Roujo> It just hope I get mine eventually
14:35:37 <Roujo> Support has been less-than-helpful
14:36:14 <Roujo> Which sucks, considering that I was a backer and all
14:36:32 <Roujo> You'd think they'd thank the backers for believing in them
14:37:06 <Roujo> But all I get are "we'll fix this within 48 hours, promised!" messages with no response
14:39:57 <`^_^v> hmmm, t-his stooff reyalli seyems to vork
14:41:32 <boily> Roujo: support from amazon was incredible in my case.
14:41:59 <Roujo> boily: That's just it. You get better support from retailers than from OUYA themselves
14:42:11 <Roujo> But since I got my OUYA directly from them, I'm just straight out of luck
14:42:38 <Roujo> I'm sorry if it sounds really bitter, I just got tired of running after them
14:43:07 <Roujo> I was so excited about the games I'd be able to make, I promoted the console to my friends and family
14:44:05 <Roujo> I even though "Hey, those people are doing something really nice, I'll get the Kickstarter Limited Edition console. It costs more, but they deserve the extra support."
14:44:16 <Roujo> And now this - no console, no money, no answer from support.
14:44:38 <boily> that's sad.
14:44:46 <Roujo> Pretty much
14:45:13 <Roujo> They told me they'd refund my international shipping (20$) since it's taking so long
14:45:24 <Roujo> They asked for my Paypal ID, which I supplied
14:45:33 <Roujo> I have yet to get anything there
14:45:44 <Roujo> They gave me 13,37$ as store credit to apologize two
14:45:51 <Roujo> It's a shame I need my OUYA to redeem it
14:45:57 <Roujo> too*
14:51:00 <boily> s/too*/two/
14:52:23 <Roujo> s/( )/\1/g
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16:31:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/EIeN I don't know why, but all the "chromium chromium chromium chromium" was somehow amusing.
16:33:01 <mnoqy> so it goes
16:33:14 <katla> thats so flash player can crash in one tab and not ruin the others right?
16:33:42 <fizzie> Presumably also that Chromium itself can do it.
16:34:02 <fizzie> I've gotten the "He's dead, Jim" tabs for non-Flash pages.
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16:43:30 <Roujo> So this exists: https://github.com/philipl/pifs
16:48:22 <katla> thats stupid
16:48:43 <Roujo> Think of the space you'll be saving!
16:48:49 <katla> none
16:49:06 <Roujo> Well
16:49:17 <Roujo> If you want to store pi as a file on your disk...
16:49:26 <katla> theres no bitstring you can use to compress arbitrary strings with indices is there?
16:49:26 <Roujo> This file system makes it fit in a single byte!
16:49:49 <Phantom_Hoover> it actually doesn't, read it more closely
16:50:02 <katla> or just make assumptions like i do
16:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it does it on a per-byte basis, so doubtless it significantly inflates file sizes
16:50:51 <Roujo> Ah
16:50:54 <Roujo> Well that's too bad
16:51:18 <Fiora> http://cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/barf.html This kind of reminds me of this
16:52:18 <Phantom_Hoover> storing pi itself is one-to-one, though
16:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, so it moves one byte into the file extension?
16:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (initially i thought the trick was using 'nonempty' to free a pigeonhole)
16:56:04 <Fiora> yeah XD
16:56:15 <Fiora> it's basically a parody/joke about cheating in compression benchmarks
16:56:25 <Fiora> because like, you can make it look like a file is much smaller than it is by storing data in the filename
16:56:45 <Fiora> I think nowadays they tar up all the files afterwards and count that, just to be sure? -_-
16:56:47 <katla> BARF extends this idea by trying 257 different algorithms and choosing the best one
16:56:50 <katla> neat
16:57:46 <Roujo> Hmm...
16:57:53 <Roujo> What if we stored the index in pi?
16:59:02 <katla> forget about pi..
16:59:28 <katla> you can't even use digits of pi to compress pi since it's computable
17:03:01 <Phantom_Hoover> do all sequences occur in pi, actually?
17:03:15 <katla> yes but no one can prove it
17:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i know it's not proven to be normal, but normality's a stronger condition
17:03:39 <katla> no can even prove that pi is irrational, they just say someone else did it
17:04:07 <katla> how is ita stronger condition
17:04:10 <katla> did you mean binary sequences
17:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_%CF%80_is_irrational
17:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> no, i thought for normality every sequence had to repeat infinitely? or maybe something else
17:05:20 <Fiora> "a number of infinite length is called normal when all possible sequences of digits (of any given length) appear equally often."
17:05:30 <Fiora> it's irrational, transcendental, but not known to be normal, I think
17:05:36 <katla> if it contains every sequences it contains them all infinitely many times
17:05:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ...point
17:06:08 <katla> normal to a specific base is weaker than normal to all bases though
17:08:32 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130812-chromium.png <- that's kind of... not good?
17:08:53 <Jafet> Basically, the digits of a normal number appear equally distributed, without any statistical patterns. For example, 2718 2818 28 45 90 45...
17:09:17 <katla> implying e is normal
17:09:45 <katla> or isn't..
17:10:30 <Fiora> wikipedia says e is like pi, they think it's normal but it's not proven?
17:10:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I checked mine; it says the same stuff, and also claims I have a third-party ATI/AMD driver even though I don't
17:11:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: I had this working in the Ubunttu.
17:11:13 <katla> almost every number is normal but mathematicians can't prove it for a single one...
17:11:32 <Fiora> well, almost every number is uncomputable too XD
17:11:44 <fizzie> Well, "working", it's crashed a couple of times, but just taking the tab in question down.
17:12:10 <Jafet> > "0." ++ ([1..] >>= show)
17:12:12 <lambdabot> "0.123456789101112131415161718192021222324252627282930313233343536373839404...
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17:15:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: (For the record; did about:flags "Override software rendering" -> Enable and now it's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130812-chromier.png -- will see if it crashes and burns.)
17:18:12 <Deewiant> That's what that does for me, too. Do you have an AMD card or does it just always work like that?
17:19:03 <fizzie> No, this is a Nvidia card with the proprietary driver.
17:19:25 <Deewiant> Okay, so it's presumably always like that.
17:19:33 <fizzie> I went to a WebGL page, it hung up, I closed the tab, now it's listing all-software again. So.
17:19:52 <Deewiant> heh
17:20:04 <fizzie> For the record, I had working threedee on the nvidia driver on the old 7600GT card.
17:21:49 <fizzie> Dangnation; and I was all set to fiddle around with WebGL on this.
17:22:08 <Deewiant> Try Firefox, just in case?
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17:23:52 * boily had his vietnamese soup fix
17:23:59 <katla> how the heck do you prove things like irrationality and trancendence
17:24:03 <katla> let alone normality
17:24:18 <katla> what do you need to know about a number to be able to prove that?
17:24:27 <Deewiant> katla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root_of_two#Proofs_of_irrationality
17:24:27 <boily> you just print out all the decimals of a number. if there is no pattern, then it's irrational.
17:24:50 <boily> darn. foiled by true facts.
17:25:17 <katla> Deewiant, that's different - it's straightfoward to explain why algebraic numbers like that are irrational
17:26:12 <Deewiant> Fair enough, I hadn't followed the discussion so I didn't know you were talking about nonalgebraic numbers
17:26:15 <Bike> yeah, i don't really understand how pi was proven irrational.
17:26:23 <Bike> something about continued fractions?
17:26:42 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_%CF%80_is_irrational
17:26:46 <katla> Bike, yeah but once you read and understand the proof youre no closer to answering my question
17:27:05 <katla> (that CF irrationality proof is awesome though do recommend it)
17:27:22 <Bike> I guess it boils down to "you need to know no two numbers in ratio form that number", which is awesomely unhelpful
17:27:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: That seems to work.
17:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> katla, i'm tempted to indulge you but i know it'll go nowhere so i won't
17:28:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: Huzzah
17:29:04 <boily> `quote buh
17:29:05 <HackEgo> No output.
17:29:19 <boily> `logs buh
17:29:21 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
17:29:24 <boily> `pastlogs buh
17:29:25 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
17:29:43 <katla> i dont know what to make of that
17:30:39 <Jafet> `pastelog pastlogs
17:31:18 <katla> it seems rude/dismissive though
17:31:19 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31511
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17:33:15 <zzo38> ?messages-loud
17:33:16 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
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17:38:05 <Roujo> ?messages-quiet
17:38:05 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
17:38:08 <Roujo> Aww
17:44:02 <boily> ?messages-whisper
17:44:03 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
17:44:14 <Roujo> ?messages-sultry-whisper
17:44:14 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
17:44:21 * boily thwacks lambdabot with a rubber squid
17:46:35 <Roujo> @list
17:46:35 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
17:46:40 <Roujo> @list @list
17:46:40 <lambdabot> No module "@list" loaded
17:46:42 <Roujo> @list list
17:46:42 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
17:46:47 <Roujo> @list listchans
17:46:47 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
17:46:52 <Roujo> @list system
17:46:52 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
17:46:57 <Roujo> @list
17:46:57 <lambdabot> No module "" loaded
17:47:13 <Roujo> @listmodules
17:47:13 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap
17:47:13 <lambdabot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
17:47:17 <Roujo> @list undo
17:47:18 <lambdabot> undo provides: undo do
17:47:22 <Roujo> ?do
17:47:22 <lambdabot> Error: expected a Haskell expression or declaration
17:47:29 <Roujo> "unmtl"
17:47:31 <Roujo> D:
17:47:42 <Roujo> But... but... our home!
17:47:48 <Roujo> boily, we must do something!
17:51:24 <zzo38> Do you know answer of any of my questions?
17:53:36 <zzo38> Roujo: Do what? What about your home?
17:54:04 <Roujo> Well, lamdabot has a module loaded that could apparently destroy/undo my home
17:54:11 <Roujo> Which I'm a bit scared of, frankly
17:54:23 <Roujo> But eh, if I'm still standing, then I guess it's not big deal
17:54:30 <Roujo> Also, what questions?
17:55:56 <zzo38> Questions about Uselessness RPG 1
17:56:12 <zzo38> (And about how such module would possibly to destroy/undo your home)
17:56:25 <Roujo> unmtl
17:57:08 <zzo38> How would that do it?
17:57:14 <Roujo> I live in mtl
17:57:31 <boily> aren't you in Lasalle?
17:57:41 <Roujo> Lachine, really =P
17:57:47 <boily> oh.
17:58:03 <boily> I'm in Rosemont-Petite-Patrie.
17:58:17 <zzo38> O, OK, then. Now answer the other question?
17:58:42 <Roujo> Sure
17:58:48 <Roujo> Where can I read the questions?
17:59:55 <zzo38> I wanted to put it from the paper also on wiki to make collaboration. That is the question.
18:01:00 <zzo38> (Somebody asked to put in git but at first I should have wiki to write the idea/planning, before a computer program is written.)
18:01:19 <Roujo> Two points:
18:01:26 <Roujo> There is no question mark on your question
18:01:44 <Roujo> Also, you seem to have accidentally something in there as well
18:02:19 <Roujo> So I don't really know what the question is yet =/
18:02:45 <Roujo> Should you put it on the wiki? Should you make it a collaboration? Are you looking for feedback on the design/planning phase?
18:02:53 <zzo38> s/\./?/g
18:03:09 <Roujo> Great, now I'm not sure of anything anymore?
18:03:16 <Roujo> Look at what you've done? =P
18:03:34 <zzo38> Yes I want to know, what kind of wiki to put it in, that you have one. And yes I am looking for feedback on design/planning phase too once it is in wiki, we can make discussion on wiki too.
18:03:48 <Roujo> Ah, okay
18:04:06 <boily> s/s\/\\.\/?\/g/s\/e\/ë\/g/g
18:04:12 <Roujo> I'm really sorry though, but I have no idea what your project is, nor if a wiki would be a good place to plan it?
18:04:21 * Roujo looks at that regex and twitches
18:04:39 <kmc> i like Gitit for a wiki
18:05:18 <Roujo> So... instëad of changing ëvëry . to a ?, it changës ëvëry ë to an ë?
18:05:23 <Roujo> Ah, looks like it doës
18:05:28 <Roujo> GG boily
18:05:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: On the other hand, the Web Audio stuffs works in Chrome (Chromium) but not in Firefox (Iceweasel). So if I want to run some sort of real multimedia application, I guess I just start both and try to keep them in sync.
18:05:51 <Deewiant> Seems workable.
18:06:17 <fizzie> Perhaps I could invest in a second mouse, multi-pointer X and some kind of robot arm to duplicate my movements, in case the application takes input.
18:06:30 <zzo38> I think it is, but I want to know what wiki/section it can be, such as the existing Hackiki, esolang wiki, IF Wiki, some other wiki, or whatever, possibly in a user space, or which server is best for this kind of subjects, specifically, is one thing.
18:06:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: Surely you can multiplex things easier than that, e.g. with Xvfb.
18:07:02 -!- yorick has joined.
18:07:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's called cheating.
18:08:04 <Deewiant> Whatever cheating is, I think multiplexing your input between two browsers so that you can keep the audio stream from one in sync with the video stream from the other is the opposite of it.
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18:09:04 <kmc> there is currently a bug in Firefox OS preventing you from sending a text message that starts with "Yo,"
18:09:11 <Fiora> what? XD
18:09:36 <Bike> just happens to be the bytes of a free(NULL) call
18:09:37 <Deewiant> Specifically that or a number of strings including that
18:10:12 <kmc> I don't know the details
18:10:39 <Fiora> I wonder if that's similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts
18:11:11 <boily> Yo,
18:11:40 <olsner> kmc: nice bug
18:13:00 <zzo38> I want to use some wiki (and section in such wiki, if applicable) with permission, and I want to ask permission of whatever wiki it is (such as Gregor's Hackiki, or something else)
18:13:09 <boily> why the fungot would you interpret a string as bytecode voluntarily...
18:13:09 <fungot> boily: handle your flasks carefully there might be a doppelganger sent to inflict pain or cause injury. suddenly, wilson thought about war, and it could fit inside thor's shirt. its power of darkness. ( ulysses, by jakob and wilhelm grimm)
18:13:35 <kmc> i love character encodings
18:15:31 <Roujo> I have an encoding bug in my Android app atm
18:15:43 <Roujo> Apparently, the backend wasn't ready to receive and parse unicode
18:15:56 <Roujo> So whenever there's an accent in the SMS message sent to the server...
18:16:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:16:31 <Roujo> ...it stores some String representation of the hex string corresponding to the unicode byte values
18:16:39 <Roujo> Which, of course, it can't parse =P
18:16:43 <olsner> unicode byte values?
18:16:54 * Roujo shrugs
18:16:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:16:58 <Bike> my favorite byte values
18:17:02 <Roujo> It stores 0073 instead of s
18:17:06 <fizzie> Seems that Web Audio API is on by default in Firefox 25 (current Aurora release), so given their release cycle... it'll be on-by-default in current release version about tomorrow.
18:17:14 <olsner> Bike: the byte values of encoding problems
18:17:35 <boily> I do not value bytes. they aren't much.
18:17:43 <kmc> om nom nom
18:17:45 <Roujo> So intead of storing s;whatever, it stored 0073003Bwhatever
18:17:51 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
18:18:00 <Roujo> And the backend dev is on vacation
18:18:01 <Roujo> So yay
18:18:02 <Deewiant> fizzie: If it exists but isn't enabled, you can just enable it in about:config. And /that's/ cheating.
18:18:49 -!- nys has joined.
18:22:34 <fizzie> I guess it exists already in the current release.
18:23:11 <Deewiant> At least my 24 has a media.webaudio.enabled = false.
18:24:02 * boily jealously ogles Deewiant
18:26:24 <zzo38> Why would that be cheating?
18:26:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
18:36:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, good news, can't stoop that low: this Debian jessie installation has Iceweasel 10.0.12 installed, which of course doesn't do any of that.
18:37:11 <Deewiant> zzo38: It would be too easy.
18:37:59 <pikhq> Iceweasel 10? Strange. Stable's on 17, no?
18:37:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Does that directly correspond to a firefox version number? If so, enjoy.
18:39:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think it does. But hey, that's just 13 versions back.
18:39:41 <pikhq> (Debian official policy is now "we ship the latest ESR")
18:39:48 <Roujo> Men were killed for lesser things
18:40:31 <fizzie> pikhq: Curiously enough, that'd be version 17, which is in both stable and unstable but not in testing. (Perhaps some transient thing.)
18:40:48 <fizzie> Oh, you mentioned that about 17.
18:41:08 <boily> pikhq: ESR, as in that eric guy?
18:41:14 <kmc> haha
18:42:18 <olsner> probably "extended support release" or somesuch
18:42:38 <boily> boring.
18:42:41 <boily> ~duck esr
18:42:41 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
18:42:45 <boily> ~duck ESR
18:42:46 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
18:43:00 <boily> ~duck i-esse-erre j'ai dit!
18:43:01 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
18:43:05 <boily> ~duck stupid
18:43:05 <metasepia> stupid definition: slow of mind.
18:43:42 <fizzie> http://packages.qa.debian.org/i/iceweasel.html oh, so stable and testing are both 10, but stable-sec (and unstable) is at 17.
18:43:50 <fizzie> Not that 17 would really help much.
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18:44:37 <olsner> how old is firefox 10? I think I last used firefox 2 or 3
18:46:01 <fizzie> 10.0 is from January 2012.
18:46:11 <fizzie> (Huh, hasn't it been longer than that?)
18:46:43 <fizzie> 3.5 is mid-2009, 3.0 mid-2008 and 2.0 from October 2006.
18:47:00 <boily> I miss the days of 0.4.
18:47:10 <olsner> oh, 2.x is most likely then
18:47:16 <Deewiant> 3.6 was the last non-alpha 3.x, and that was January 2010
18:47:43 <Deewiant> I started with 0.4; I somewhat miss those days too
18:48:37 <Deewiant> A more civilized age and all that
18:49:17 <fizzie> I have absolutely no idea when I switched over. I guess there was something Mozilla in-between Netscape 4 and Firefox?
18:49:43 <Deewiant> Sure, the suite.
18:49:44 <olsner> oh yes, there were lots of mozilla as I recall
18:50:02 <olsner> and a Netscape 5 (6?)
18:50:15 <Deewiant> Netscape went up to 9
18:50:17 <fizzie> Netscape 6 was based on the Mozilla code.
18:50:20 <fizzie> But they skipped 5.
18:50:30 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Timeline_of_web_browsers.svg has a fancy chart.
18:50:34 <Deewiant> 6 and 7 were based on Mozilla, 8 and 9 were based on Firefox
18:50:44 <olsner> weird... 5 is a much better new-codebase number than 6
18:51:12 <boily> we should start a Prime Numbers for Web Browsers Campaign.
18:51:18 <fizzie> olsner: They were making a 5, but nothing came out of it.
18:51:27 <fizzie> olsner: Plus they obviously needed to one-up IE 5.
18:52:50 <fizzie> (The so-called "Slackware Maneuver".)
18:53:17 <olsner> maneouvre is hard to spell
18:53:33 <Deewiant> Apparently
18:53:47 <olsner> what was the slackware manöver though? one-upping IE or skipping number 5?
18:54:25 <boily> s/manöver/manœuvre/
18:54:40 <fizzie> olsner: One-upping competitors.
18:55:07 <Deewiant> The joke is that Slackware is better than its competitors so it inherently one-ups them all the time.
18:55:11 <fizzie> olsner: They went from 3.x directly to 7, because Red Hat and everyone else was at 6.
18:56:05 <fizzie> Or maybe they got a 4.0 out, but at least they jumped from there.
18:56:40 <fizzie> "First off, I think I forgot to count some time ago. If I'd started on 6.0 and made every release a major version (I think that's how Linux releases are made these days, right? ;), we would be on Slackware 47 by now. (it would actually be in the 20s somewhere if we'd gone 1, 2, 3...)
18:56:50 <fizzie> I think it's clear that some other distributions inflated their version numbers for marketing purposes, and I've had to field (way too many times) the question "why isn't yours 6.x" or worse "when will you upgrade to Linux 6.0" which really drives home the effectiveness of this simple trick. With the move to glibc and nearly everyone else using 6.x now, it made sense to go to at least 6.0, ...
18:56:56 <fizzie> ... just to make it clear to people who don't know anything about Linux that Slackware's libraries, compilers, and other stuff are not 3 major versions behind. I thought they'd all be using 7.0 by now, but no matter. We're at least "one better", right? :)" --Patrick Volkerding
18:57:53 <kmc> Sun went from Java 1.4 to Java 5 (aka 1.5)
18:58:09 <kmc> and Linux went from 2.6.39 to 3.0 arbitrarily
18:58:09 <olsner> and from 1.1 to Java 2 1.2
18:58:15 <fizzie> Is Java 7 still 1.7 somewhere?
18:58:27 <olsner> up to Java 2 1.4? then Java 5 ... I think
18:59:03 <fizzie> Windows went from three-four-ish to ninety-five, though. :p
18:59:20 <fizzie> (And then on to two thousand.)
18:59:40 <olsner> well, 95 is at least internally 4.0 and 2000 is 5.0
18:59:49 <kmc> and then there were NT versions
19:00:19 <fizzie> And Windows 7 is 6.1.
19:00:32 <Deewiant> And Windows 8 is 6.2.
19:00:47 <fizzie> How about 8.1?
19:01:01 <Deewiant> Maybe it's 6.3? Dunno.
19:01:05 <olsner> hmm, according to wikipedia Java went from Java 2 1.4 to Java 2 5.0 before going to Java 6
19:01:06 <fizzie> 6.3, it seems.
19:01:28 <fizzie> olsner: The 5.0 was 1.5 on the inside in many places, though.
19:01:38 <fizzie> "Java 2 5.0 aka 1.5" is quite a.
19:03:12 <fizzie> (Also it's "manööveri" in Finnish.)
19:04:01 <Deewiant> (And the verb is "manöveroida".)
19:04:15 <fizzie> (I guess vowel harmony is more of a suggestion than a law.)
19:04:33 <olsner> (what would the vowel harmonious version be?)
19:04:43 <Deewiant> (Alternatively "manövroida", it seems.)
19:05:03 <fizzie> olsner: Manooveri, mänööveri.
19:05:11 <Deewiant> Vowel harmony isn't a necessity in loanwords.
19:05:21 <Deewiant> Otherwise it is, I think.
19:05:56 <Deewiant> (Of course what is and isn't a loanword gets blurry over time.)
19:06:29 <Phantom_Hoover> what does the ¨ indicate in finnish
19:06:41 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: a quote?
19:06:44 <Deewiant> Nothing by itself, ä and ö are different letters.
19:07:15 <fizzie> The front versions of a and o.
19:07:53 <Deewiant> a is front, the difference is openness.
19:08:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: Wikipedia claims a /ɑ/ is the back unrounded vowel.
19:08:39 <Deewiant> Darn.
19:08:58 <fizzie> (And that both /ɑ/ and /æ/ are open.)
19:09:13 <Deewiant> æ is near-open, isn't it?
19:09:31 <Deewiant> Not that it's a big difference.
19:09:43 <fizzie> Well, it does continue with: "Phonetically, the phoneme /ɑ/ is usually central, although it is back in some dialects."
19:09:48 <fizzie> So I suppose it's: a mess.
19:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> /ɑ/ seems quite closed, at least to me
19:10:12 <boily> /ä/ is central, /ɑ/ is back.
19:10:20 <boily> (at least in french.)
19:11:32 <Deewiant> Dialects tend to make messes.
19:11:57 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, vowels are the first casualty
19:12:24 <boily> is there any other language in the world that prominently features unvoiced vowels, as in Québec French?
19:12:42 <Roujo> Comme le e muet, mettons?
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19:13:08 <Roujo> Japanese comes to mind
19:13:14 <Roujo> If I'm getting this right, anyway
19:13:22 <fizzie> boily: "-- several Native American languages --", apparently.
19:13:49 <boily> Roujo: oh hm. I should have known. ちょっと日本語を話せますけど…
19:13:54 <fizzie> "Cheyenne has 14 orthographic letters composed of 13 phonemes, several of which can be devoiced. ([x] is written as x orthographically but is not a phoneme.) Devoicing naturally occurs in the last vowel of a word or phrase. It can also occur in vowels at the penultimate and prepenultimate positions within a word."
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19:13:56 <boily> fizzie: ah! interesting!
19:14:05 <Roujo> Arigato gozaimasu
19:14:48 <boily> sō ja ne...
19:15:45 <Deewiant> "although contrastively voiceless vowels have been reported several times, they have never been verified (L&M 1996:315)."
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19:22:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: I know the topic sort of passed already, but since I had the tab open... this is what chrome://gpu says after I go to any webgl thing: http://sprunge.us/NUVD
19:22:42 <Deewiant> That does seem problematic.
19:23:00 <fizzie> Maybe they'll fix in in the future.
19:23:21 <fizzie> What, I don't have glxgears.
19:23:44 <Deewiant> Install mesa-demos or the equivalent.
19:25:08 <fizzie> "mesa-utils", apparently.
19:26:06 <fizzie> "Running synchronized to the vertical refresh. The framerate should be approximately the same as the monitor refresh rate."
19:26:09 <fizzie> What. The whole point were those over-nine-thousand-FPS numbers.
19:26:55 <Deewiant> fizzie: vblank_mode=0 glxgears
19:27:15 <fizzie> I found that in the interwebs, but it did nothing. :'(
19:27:24 <Deewiant> WORKSFORME.
19:27:32 <boily> that always left me puzzled: how can you achieve higher than 60 fps on a screen, where the hardware's refresh rate is fixed to 60 Hz (or 120 Hz if you have a nice high-end monitor).
19:27:56 <boily> WORKSFORME=0 glxgears
19:27:58 <Deewiant> You just send the frames and the display displays as many as it can.
19:28:14 <fizzie> The frames also change in the middle of the display update.
19:28:16 <boily> so it's a not-quite-fake-but-neither-very-true measure.
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19:28:45 <fizzie> I'll blame the nvidia driver for vblank_mode not doing anything.
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19:29:08 <olsner> maybe you can disable vsync globally
19:29:22 <fizzie> nvidia-settings has a vsync setting, that'd probably do it.
19:40:05 <shachaf> `olist (910)
19:40:07 <HackEgo> olist (910): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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19:43:02 <boily> transcendality put to good use: https://github.com/philipl/pifs
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19:55:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Roujo linked that earlier
20:01:56 <boily> permit me to loudly and squaredly facepalm as a sign of sincere apology.
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20:12:51 <zzo38> Do you like this?
20:14:41 <oerjan> no it's awful (disclaimer: i haven't read the logs yet, so i have no idea what you are referring to)
20:15:36 <zzo38> Sorry, I didn't really mention it yet.
20:15:41 <zzo38> I mean this: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
20:16:31 <Bike> i just broke out laughing
20:16:49 <oerjan> Bike: you probably have Kuru hth
20:16:58 -!- douglass has joined.
20:27:22 <boily> ~duck kuru
20:27:22 <metasepia> kuru definition: a rare progressive fatal prion disease that resembles Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and has occurred among tribespeople in eastern New Guinea who engaged in a form of ritual cannibalism.
20:27:43 <boily> Bike: try to not die. it is poor manners.
20:28:16 <Bike> sure NOW you tell me not to eat brains
20:28:19 <Bike> BIT LATE HERE
20:29:59 <pikhq> Next they'll be telling me not to get profound tendon damage.
20:30:43 <boily> tongues in a Korean-style marinade are still safe, right?
20:30:51 <pikhq> Systemic tendinitis, what a sideeffect.
20:31:13 <boily> fleshy, chewy tongues, lightly grilled...
20:31:15 * boily drools...
20:35:20 <oerjan> sorry, but tongues are disgusting hth
20:36:33 <zzo38> oerjan: Are you sure? Maybe to you and some people it is; maybe to some people it isn't?
20:37:54 <boily> tongues are tasty and flavourful.
20:39:44 <oerjan> zzo38: let's just say that cod tongue is the one food from my childhood which i cannot abide trying again.
20:40:58 <boily> cod... tongue??? bletch.
20:41:24 <oerjan> a distinction which does _not_ apply to either lutefisk or blood sausage, which others may find disgusting.
20:41:26 <boily> I'm okay with just about any possible internal organ, but cod tongue?
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20:42:38 <boily> Roujo: as a fellow montrealer, what are your thoughts on internal organ edibility?
20:43:06 <oerjan> i guess the fact i won't eat bovine tongue is just tranferred cod trauma.
20:43:25 <elliott> Transferred Cod Trauma is the name of my band
20:43:42 <boily> `addquote <oerjan> i guess the fact i won't eat bovine tongue is just tranferred cod trauma.
20:43:46 <HackEgo> 1088) <oerjan> i guess the fact i won't eat bovine tongue is just tranferred cod trauma.
20:44:31 <oerjan> *+s :(
20:44:32 <zzo38> elliott: You made up a band?
20:44:47 <boily> oerjan: I know, I just copied it verbatim.
20:45:05 <boily> should I resubmit it with proper essification?
20:45:24 -!- mnoqy has joined.
20:46:35 <oerjan> unless that's a freudian slip on no:tran = en:fish liver oil (as tapped in bottles and considered a health supplement; _freshly_ boiled cod liver is part of a delicious national meal (skreimølje).)
20:47:07 <oerjan> boily: no, i guess the truth of history shall not be hidden
20:47:41 <boily> I think I prefer the dubious scandinavian obscure liver pun version.
20:47:55 <boily> ~duck skreimølje
20:47:56 <metasepia> --- No relevant information
20:48:10 <oerjan> so i suppose tran _might_ count as another such food, although i don't think that was pushed on me as much as on some other poor kids.
20:49:08 <boily> I think my dad tried to make us ingurgitate fish oil pills when my bro and I were young, but the memories of that are very fungotty.
20:49:08 <fungot> boily: they say that you can lie on it till it hatched, and thieves. he is important as a lord, even on the astral plane. usually, there will be very useful if you're telepathic.
20:49:19 <boily> something about vitamin E and whatnots.
20:50:17 <oerjan> there's a norwegian wikipedia article on mølje but no english wiki link in it, alas
20:50:55 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre.
20:51:03 <oerjan> also i recall the meat variant, which is far less delicious but still edible after a fashion and which my mother used to make on christmas eve.
20:52:05 <oerjan> boily: btw i recommend google picture hits for skreimølje hth
20:53:29 <oerjan> boily: the norwegian traditional way of taking fish oil is with a spoon, from a bottle. i hear nowadays they add orange flavor to it to make it less unappealing.
20:53:54 <oerjan> also they are making advertisements about it.
20:54:12 <zzo38> I made the wiki of discussion/collaboration of Uselessness RPG 1, now. Please write a comment on it! (or if you find a minor spelling/grammar mistake on it, you can fix that too if you want to)
20:55:17 <oerjan> boily: fungotty memories sounds like _all_ my childhood memories.
20:55:17 <fungot> oerjan: better leave the dungeon; otherwise you might get giantslayer.
20:55:43 <boily> oerjan: as the Illustrious Markovian Bot said.
20:56:25 <oerjan> ^style
20:56:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:58:27 <nooodl> zzo38: you should give a link to the wiki; we can't comment or take a look at it if we don't know where it is
20:58:38 <zzo38> nooodl: I already did.
20:58:46 <elliott> nooodl: sure we can.
20:58:52 <zzo38> But, I will repeat it to you: http://hackiki.org/wiki/uselessness_rpg_1,,main
20:59:01 <nooodl> zzo38: thanks
21:05:18 <boily> ah, the joy of being completely lost in the inextricable meandres of OpenERP innadrs...
21:05:31 <boily> s/adr/ard/
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21:15:34 <boily> time to go get various thready resino-cupric apparatuses for power distribution and signal propagation. tonight is da night!
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21:37:19 <kmc> who wants to talk about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature ??? it's pretty great
21:37:49 <kmc> a public-key signature system which uses no fancy math, only hash functions, and so resists attack by quantum computers
21:37:56 <kmc> only problem is you can only use a given public key once >_<
21:41:47 <elliott> huh, lesie lamport did non-latex things.
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21:46:39 <kmc> merkle trees were invented as a way of efficiently "distributing" lots of one-time-use Lamport public keys
21:48:05 <kmc> like you generate 2^n keys, make them into a merkle tree of height n, and then publish the root as your identity
21:48:56 <kmc> then to sign a message you also include one of those one-use keys and the path to it in the merkle tree
21:49:38 <kmc> I guess once you've almost used up your 2^n keys you can sign a new root? not sure
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21:54:26 <elliott> kmc: do you know about `grep ''`, feel like this is a useful non-obvious tip that people should know (or maybe everyone but me already does)
21:54:40 <elliott> it's like cat but it labels the files all the lines are from so you can use it in a pipeline or just pass it to less or whaterver
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21:54:55 <elliott> hi johnny57, bye johnny5
21:54:56 <elliott> 7
21:55:23 <kmc> elliott: oh that's cool
21:55:29 <kmc> I do use 'grep .' sometimes but didn't know that one
21:55:49 <elliott> does that work with empty lines?
21:57:11 <kmc> no it filters out empty lines
21:57:14 <kmc> which is useful sometimes
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22:02:37 <fizzie> Sometimes I do 'head -n -0 list of files', it's kind of similar except it puts ==> labels <== at the start of each file instead of labeling lines.
22:04:18 <elliott> fizzie: `more ...` does the same
22:04:24 <elliott> when piped
22:04:33 <elliott> though the headers are slightly different
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22:58:46 <Taneb> Can someone quickly give me a simple iterative code excerpt from a C-like language?
23:00:16 <Fiora> for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++){printf("%d\n", i);}
23:00:23 <Bike> int fib(int n) { int res = 1, i; for(i = 2; i < n; ++i) res *= i; return res; }
23:00:31 <Bike> wow good naming
23:01:17 <Fiora> naming?
23:01:24 <Bike> fib for factorial
23:01:28 <nooodl> yes
23:02:15 <Fiora> oh. XD
23:02:21 <Fiora> I guess the name of your function
23:02:23 <Fiora> is a bit of a fib
23:02:56 <Taneb> Thank you
23:03:03 <Taneb> Thanks, Fiora, used yours
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23:35:03 <oerjan> Taneb: you hadn't learned haskell when you came here to #esoteric, had you? now i see you advocating it all over reddit :P
23:35:15 <Taneb> I know!
23:35:17 <Taneb> It's scary!
23:35:20 <Taneb> What have I become!?
23:36:31 <oerjan> also i vaguely recall what the haskell committee had was called a "syntax czar"
23:37:04 <shachaf> why would you advocate haskell
23:37:59 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:38:13 <shachaf> Sgeo: we've already `olisted, no need
23:38:37 <oerjan> confirmed by googling it and getting hudak's A History of Haskell as one of the hits
23:39:10 <Sgeo> ​​`olist 001
23:39:36 <oerjan> oh no, Sgeo's counter has wrapped around!
23:39:58 <oerjan> also HackEgo has croaked?
23:40:02 <oerjan> `echo hi
23:40:03 <HackEgo> hi
23:40:12 <Bike> imo, we're all going to die
23:40:14 * oerjan assumes unicode
23:40:26 <oerjan> Bike: that is one common (but disputed) hypothesis
23:40:51 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick.
23:41:21 <oerjan> of course it depends on your definition of "die"
23:41:50 <Sgeo> Zero-width space. Also, Quassel doesn't have a right-click menu to add one, so I had to use character map :(
23:41:56 <oerjan> i think a sufficiently advanced singularitarian immortality is indistinguishable from religious afterlife, or something.
23:42:07 <shachaf> Sgeo: you added two, in fact
23:42:09 <Bike> wow, how convenient.
23:43:00 <Taneb> ...
23:43:05 <Taneb> oerjan, are you reddit-stalking me
23:43:24 <oerjan> in fact some religions may have _less_ advanced afterlives than that...
23:43:36 * oerjan hides his reddit friend list
23:43:53 <oerjan> i mean, MAYBE
23:44:07 <shachaf> oerjan: am i on that!!
23:44:17 <oerjan> shachaf: hm are you, let me check
23:45:46 <oerjan> shachaf: no, like elliott you are excluded for never actually posting hth
23:46:02 <Taneb> oerjan, by the way, in another channel I'm fighting Haskell's last stand
23:46:10 <oerjan> Taneb: ooh
23:46:11 <shachaf> oerjan: hey i post at least once a year hth
23:46:14 <Bike> how noble
23:46:27 <Bike> btw how do you quantify how advanced an afterlife is
23:46:29 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe you should come to #haskell
23:46:51 <oerjan> shachaf: it's ok since it's always(*) to r/haskell which i read anyway
23:46:51 <Bike> can you advance an afterlife
23:46:52 <shachaf> and/or #haskell-lens (the good channel and also smaller)
23:46:55 <oerjan> (*) nearly always
23:47:17 <shachaf> #haskell-lens isn't even logged
23:47:26 <shachaf> top secret discussions
23:47:29 <oerjan> Bike: well some afterlives like the buddhist ones might be _temporary_. and some might not be very attractive.
23:47:46 <Bike> that doesn't sound very advancedness-related!
23:47:56 <oerjan> (actually i'm not sure buddhism has afterlives as much as different realms to be reborn into)
23:48:43 <Bike> buddhism just has lives, generally
23:49:22 -!- iamfishhead has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:49:42 <zzo38> "singularitarian immortality"? Like, it is...
23:50:26 <kmc> overthrow the syntax czar and install a syntax soviet
23:51:00 <oerjan> zzo38: basically about technology solving the problem of mortality, in whatever manner. (computer uploading with backups being a popular idea for how it could happen)
23:51:02 <Bike> a syntax soviet elected by the syntax proletariat
23:51:37 <zzo38> Mortality is a problem?
23:51:52 <kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
23:52:00 <oerjan> zzo38: some people don't like the idea of having to die, indeed
23:52:13 <oerjan> at least not until they themselves choose it.
23:52:17 <zzo38> I think it is not a problem.
23:52:30 <zzo38> The problem is those kind of people.
23:52:52 <oerjan> obvious solution: kill all the people who don't want to die
23:53:06 <Taneb> It's a four-way showdown between C, C++, Go, and Haskell
23:53:17 <elliott> `addquote <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
23:53:19 <Bike> i'm already incredibly disinterested
23:53:20 <HackEgo> 1089) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Tyranny of Structurelessness
23:53:21 <oerjan> (i didn't say it was a good solution, just obvious)
23:53:28 <zzo38> I suppose that's one, but I don't like that solution either. Just simply ignore their request.
23:54:01 <Bike> btw i found out my school library has a binder of PDP-11 macro programming manual
23:54:04 <Bike> amazing imo.
23:55:23 <shachaf> why would you macro program a micro computer
23:55:29 <shachaf> hmm, the PDP-11 was a mini computer
23:55:35 <oerjan> Taneb: i think what you need is to get kmc in there to make it a five-way showdown
23:55:38 <Bike> it's programming In The Large
23:57:32 <nys> ooh
23:58:51 <oerjan> `WeLcOmE nys
23:58:54 <HackEgo> NyS: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
23:59:05 <nys> gaah
23:59:10 <nys> i've been here before
23:59:14 <nys> i'm not new
23:59:14 <oerjan> i know
23:59:17 <shachaf> won't save you
23:59:18 <nys> o-o
23:59:20 <shachaf> `rwelcome nys
23:59:23 <HackEgo> nys: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:59:29 <oerjan> but have you been _WeLcOmEd_ before
23:59:38 <Bike> hi nys
23:59:39 <Bike> what is up
23:59:44 <nys> nothing much
23:59:58 <nys> ??6?$basic_ostream@DU?$char_traits@D@std@@@std@@QAEAAV01@P6AAAV01@AAV01@@Z@Z
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