00:53:29 What is a soul? 00:53:55 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Souls hth 01:05:27 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 01:06:33 -!- Tod-Autojoined has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.). 01:10:50 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:14:41 http://www.kboing.com.br/fotos/imagens/49945052a453d.jpg 01:24:06 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:26:46 -!- TodPunk has joined. 01:29:00 The other day I heard a radio commercial about people who "disguise learning as fun". 01:29:11 It's a sad phrase. 01:48:20 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:02:01 They should have disguised that message better. 02:28:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:28:16 -!- augur has joined. 02:37:41 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:38:17 -!- augur has joined. 02:43:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:47:47 -!- augur has joined. 03:01:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:01:54 Why do VCRs newer than some certain date cannot record in LP speed? 03:02:42 what the hell is a vcr 03:03:50 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre. 03:04:11 I have a VHS/DVD combination, which can record all speeds on DVD but on VHS it won't record LP (but it does support the non-standard VP speed). 03:07:59 zzo38: Why would you use VHS? 03:09:07 shachaf: Some movies we have are on VHS. Also, I use it when I want to record a TV show that I don't need to keep. (If I want to keep the recording, DVD can be used instead.) 03:11:48 ...get a DVR 03:12:14 That's the thing normal people use for recording TV shows these days. 03:12:53 No, I use VCR. 03:13:37 Why 03:13:58 Lumpio-: You're asking a guy who runs a gopher daemon. 03:14:00 It's harder and slower to use and has worse image quality. 03:14:09 pikhq_: Yes but he usually has some sort of reasoning for things 03:14:16 Mmm, true. 03:15:14 The image quality is good enough, although mainly this is we already have VCR/DVD so it can be used. If the recording needs to be permanent, then I will use DVD instead. 03:15:33 You just ignored the two other things! 03:16:23 No, it is fast enough, and it isn't harder. Especially this VCR has jet rewind, so it is faster than the other VCR anyways. 03:16:58 Shame you can't get D-VHS equipment reasonably. 03:19:21 Though i suppose with Bluray it's irrelevant now. 03:20:49 Well, what I have is good enough. Still, I don't know why they stopped making VCRs that record in LP speed (although for most shows SP is good enough, and we rarely need to record more than one show on a tape at once; it can just be recorded over). It can help though to have LP in case you want to record several TV shows while you are gone and don't want to reduce the quality too much to EP (unless there are enough shows that EP would be better any 03:21:08 Though amusingly it'd not be if HD-DVD had won. 03:21:23 (D-VHS had a higher bitrate than HD-DVD? Seriously?) 03:26:13 I didn't know that. 03:28:39 Yeah. D-VHS had an absurdly high 30Mbps rate. 03:31:14 How can you add index marks to existing recordings in VHS tapes? 03:31:33 pikhq_: what codec? 03:31:42 kmc: MPEG-2, unfortunately. 03:32:00 So HD-DVD *could* look better than it. Though it could *not*. 03:32:29 At least MPEG-2 is halfway tolerable at that rate? 03:32:57 (note, for 1080i and 1080p24 content. Obviously it's overkill at 480i) 03:33:05 Do you like "Worse-Is-Better" software design? 03:33:12 i like worse is worse 03:33:26 Personally, I just believe less is less. 03:33:40 worse isn't better. worse is better than better 03:33:57 i believe that features I need are "pragmatic" while features you need are "bloat" 03:34:09 I believe my stomach is bloated. 03:34:10 perhaps worse is better up to isomorphism 03:34:36 kmc: What software design is that? 03:34:44 best 03:35:00 Biggest software is best software? 03:35:12 the software that can be good is not the true software 03:37:42 kmc: oh, did you read that book 03:39:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:39:06 the one you lent me? no I didn't start yet :( 03:42:50 sure, you SAY you want a nervou system, but that's just bloat. My sponges have differing behavior without a nervous system, without bloat 03:47:54 oh 03:48:05 it talks about the tao etc. 03:48:08 maybe you guessed 03:48:10 from the title 03:48:10 yeah 03:49:40 kmc: do you need drugz to learn higher category theory 03:50:10 i don't know any higher category theory 03:50:14 so I cannot speak of this 03:50:55 i hear amphetamines help w/ math 03:51:11 Bike: only mathamphetamines do that hth 03:51:12 i think erdős was p. upset that people drew this conclusion 03:51:22 Really? 03:51:49 anyway it was just a drugz joke 03:51:55 is the joke 'higher' 03:51:59 yes 03:52:00 that's all 03:52:07 like left adjoint and forgetful functor 03:52:09 ok 03:52:10 we need some more in-depth drugz jokes, i feel 03:52:17 i have a ""limited vocabulary"" that intersects drugz and categories 03:52:21 they're getting samey, in that they are all the same 03:52:22 given that i don't know much about either one 03:52:33 i got a vaporizer today http://www.ploom.com/pax 03:53:47 black anodized aluminum shell, "Designed in San Francisco" etched on the back, clearly trying to be Apple 03:53:52 i honestly have no idea why someone would need this 03:53:55 also it has easter eggs: http://vaporpedia.com/wiki/Pax#Party_Mode 03:53:57 i'm great at drugz 03:54:18 kmc: you should help me come up with more categoriez/drugz jokez 03:54:24 it vaporizes the active ingredients from tobaccy (or wacky tobaccy) w/o burning the plant material 03:54:24 wow you can use it in your car 03:55:00 so it's a lot healthier and produces basically no smell, definitely not the awful lingering smoke smell 03:55:09 oh good i hate that smell 03:55:31 you can use it in your car / you can use it in a bar / you can smoke it in your house / you can smoke it with your spouse 03:55:36 yes 03:55:37 hmm maybe it's not actually smoking 03:55:44 vaping 03:55:46 yes 03:55:48 vapong 03:55:57 apparently one of the big vape user forums is http://fuckcombustion.com/ 03:56:23 To activate: Hold it horizontally in front of you and roll it towards you like 3 times. 03:56:30 i thought this was a wikipedia page at first 03:56:38 sadly not 03:58:08 i like combustion :( 03:58:12 i mean, not with drugz. just in general. 03:58:24 do you like drugz 03:58:58 I like my "vaporator". it dispenses albuterol sulfate <.< 03:59:20 that sounds pretty hardcore 03:59:25 is an electronic version called an "evaporator" 04:02:49 kmc: Oh, can I review Pointless now? 04:03:20 yes you can be the first!! 04:03:28 https://plus.google.com/115755278795768575583/about 04:04:19 it's a realtor called pointless topology? 04:04:23 why is it a "Vacation Home Rental Agency" 04:04:30 fucked if i know 04:04:49 Bike: it's my house, which decided to register itself as a business for some reason 04:04:56 sweet 04:04:58 do you get a paycheck 04:05:02 no 04:05:07 kmc: should i suggest to change it to something 04:05:09 can I buy shares in kmc's house 04:05:11 maybe "Housing Cooperative" 04:05:17 http://pointlesstopology.com/ look how legit we are 04:05:19 there's no "Housing Coöperative" suggestion 04:05:38 the use of twitter bootstrap alone should be worth a $2M seed round 04:05:46 Oops, it wants me to sign in. 04:06:18 hmm, maybe a housing coöperative is something else 04:06:45 actually maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_cooperative is ok 04:07:00 i've known of other places that are also "n friends living in a house" but actually incorporated and have house bank accounts and a credit card 04:07:14 we just buy things individually and then get reimbursed through an accounting system based on a perl script and a makefile 04:08:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:08:19 kmc: I submitted a request to change it to "Housing Coöperative" 04:08:32 Google kept trying to take my ¨ away but I think I managed to submit it. 04:08:42 good 04:08:46 thanxs 04:08:50 -!- copumpkin has joined. 04:09:01 ur wellcome 04:10:31 who reviews these things 04:11:33 maybe i should suggest Working Hours too!! 04:14:04 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 04:14:32 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:14:50 -!- tertu has joined. 04:19:57 How do you make ephemeris program including rotation of Pluto and the other planets of the solar system? Swiss Ephemeris has only the rotation of the Earth, but I want to have the rotation of the other planets too (and of Pluto, which is now properly considered a dwarf planet, but it is still an object in the solar system regardless of what it is called), and possibly even the objects beyond Pluto. 04:20:22 what about asteroids 04:21:40 I don't need those for what I am doing, but it would be good for such ephemeris to have asteroids too, so that it can be used for other purposes too. 04:22:04 hey, i have a paper on what THC does to your head. neat 04:23:06 "There is not a single, elementary manifestation of mental illness that cannot be found in the mental changes caused by hashish..." 04:29:47 I did remove the extra comma by now. 04:30:21 I think I have read somewhere that someone once removed an extra comma to avoid someone being thrown in prison, or something like that. 04:36:04 i like how there's an entire class of important endogenuous chemical signals that are called "endocannabinoids" because THC and CBD happen to resemble them enough that a plant can get people high 04:37:08 kmc: Are you going to make udis86 bindings? 04:37:13 imo you should do it hth 04:39:50 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:41:46 JavaScriptCore uses a conservative GC right now too? 04:41:56 * shachaf is surprised so many things do. 04:42:29 i wonder what a liberal GC would be like. data just disappearing everywhere 04:43:14 Er, not JavaScriptCore. I mean SpiderMonkey. 04:54:26 communist GC 04:55:26 every object gets the same amount of memory 04:55:40 if it uses more memory than is allocated to it, it gets "garbage collected" 04:56:18 from each object according to its ability, etc. 04:56:39 s/,// 04:58:17 hey kmc do you have any personal reports on the effects of thc on memory 04:59:05 he used to, but then he was left adjoint by a forgetful functor 04:59:10 darn 04:59:12 (you can't blame him -- it was free) 05:13:13 what shachaf said 05:15:35 k 05:24:35 -!- ChrisW has joined. 05:26:25 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:27:33 Must a machine be able to output any bit string in order to be Turing Complete, or will some subset suffice? I'm considering de Bruijn encoding of closed lambda expressions, where not all bit strings will be able to be generated. 05:28:32 i don't see why you'd need all of them. you could have a machine that outputs a bunch of zeroes and then the usual, say 05:29:28 You mean to say that as long as their is some kind of mapping between the subset of bit strings that can be output and all the possible bit strings, it can be Turing Complete? 05:29:38 yeah, i think so. 05:30:04 well, i don't know. naturals map to computable bitstrings i suppose, so that's useless 05:30:31 Are there any restrictions on what that mapping is? I feel like you could cheat by making the mapping function itself Turing Complete 05:30:48 the mapping should be computable 05:31:04 i'm not sure about "output" either honestly, i mean classic UTMs just have a final tape state 05:31:33 the only output you really need is "halt" or "not halt" 05:32:38 Regarding de Bruijn encodings of lambda expressions, it is possible to count the encodings in sorted order, and construct a table which maps the encodings to their index, where the index is a natural number or bit string 05:33:37 just do the usual i guess, have a machine that takes a description of a BCT program or whatever and returns a church encoding of a result, and call it good 05:33:48 elliott, is that true? I haven't heard that before. 05:34:32 Bike, I'm not sure I follow that. I know what church numerals are though 05:34:54 ChrisW: i mean, the usual "it can do this turing machine thing, so it's turing complete". 05:35:01 bct = bitwise cyclic tag, but you could use anything 05:35:23 as for halt/not halt, basically you just need to be able to have partially computable functions, which, well, either halt or don't 05:36:59 plenty of formalisms don't hve, like, "output", such as lambda calculus which just term rewrites, and that rewriting either has a normal form or doesn't 05:37:14 Simulate BCT in order to prove Turing Completeness? I'm pretty sure Jot is Turing Complete, but I'm just wondering how to translate the resulting lambda expression into any possible bit string 05:37:38 Yes, lambda calculus is exactly what I'm using 05:37:42 why bother doing that 05:37:58 The input is a bit string, and I would like the output to be a bit string as well 05:38:01 lambda calculus doesn't "output" and has no bit strings at all and there's no doubt bout it being turing complete, see 05:38:47 Couldn't you convert the resulting expression into a bit string using de Bruijn encoding to produce "output"? 05:38:50 if you want to be able to output any bit string you could just define the map from encoded lambda expressions to naturals, nothing wrong with that 05:39:02 yeah, but what's the point of calling that "output" 05:39:12 you could also say it "outputs" the unencoded text 05:39:41 Ok, thanks. By unencoded text you mean the lambda expression? 05:39:45 yeah 05:40:11 I simply find it nice and symmetric to output the same form of data as the input, that is binary 05:40:26 suit yourself. i'd just do the coding then. 05:40:42 mapping to the naturals allows any bitstring, obviously 05:41:00 Are you familiar with Jot? Every possible bit string is a valid program. 05:41:13 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:41:14 Yeah, that's probably the only way to do it 05:41:44 not familiar with jot, sorry 05:42:46 but since partial computable functions are enumerable you could define any formalism like that by having an encode natural to program step first 05:44:11 there's certainly no notion of "bitstrings" in the old style math; i mean, turing machines can have N states, not just 2, obviously 05:44:30 binary just happens to work "pretty well" with electromechanics 05:44:52 Ah, basically it converts all "1"s into the terms "S K" and all "0"s into precedence operators for application. For example, "101" translates to "S K (S K)". Interestingly, the S and K combinators individually can be constructed using the bit strings "11111000" and "11100" respectively, which essentially proves Turing Completeness right there. 05:45:10 What exactly is a partial computable function? 05:46:02 sounds like you could use some basic computability class, lemme see if i can find something nice 05:46:53 basically, a partial computable function is something a turing machine can do; or something µ-recursive; or a lambda expression; or any number of things like that 05:47:20 intuitively you can think of it s something an idealized computer can do, i guess, you already have some idea of that 05:47:35 and that includes not halting, which is what the "partial" is for; a total computable function "always halts" 05:48:02 oh I see 05:48:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:48:31 -!- augur has joined. 05:49:42 unfortunately i mostly learned computability from wikipedia and dicking around, but "Kolmogorov Complexity and Applications" had a pretty nice review; i could dig through it's bibliography for something dedicated if you want 05:50:01 you probably don't need much if you already understand how SK works and all. 05:50:12 and de bruijn encoding and all these other things. sorry if i'm bugging you, on that note 05:52:10 I'm not sure if I'm equipped to understand most of that. And really all I want to do is write some nifty Jot programs like a Fibonacci generator perhaps. I wrote an interpreter for Jot in Python, and I have been working on some code which converts Python's internal lambda structures into strings like (\ab.a (b a)) 05:53:15 hopefully "all of that" is equipment for helping you understand :) 05:55:33 heh, I say that because I only started learning about lambda calculus a week ago, and scraping the Internet for this stuff isn't as easy as I thought it would be 05:56:07 do you want some recommendations for computability / complexity theory books 05:57:10 I'm not sure how deep into this stuff I really want to get. It's just a hobby of mine once in a while 05:59:48 well, it can be nice to know where to look if you get interested later 06:00:14 that's true, what do you recommend? 06:01:56 _Introduction to the Theory of Computation_ by Sipser and then _Computational Complexity_ by Papadimitriou 06:02:02 i really enjoyed both books 06:02:18 Scott Aaronsons blog has some interesting posts 06:02:25 there's also the complexity zoo wiki and stuff? 06:02:27 they're both nicely self-contained but the latter covers a lot more stuff and is generally more challenging so I suggest both in order 06:03:18 does Complexity Zoo have content beyond a listing of complexity classes? 06:03:42 I'm not sure? I use it as a reference mainly 06:03:47 like when something I read says like 06:03:50 "BPP-path" 06:03:56 and I'm like oh gosh what the heck is that 06:04:09 yeah 06:04:15 it's complementary to the textbooks in that way 06:04:47 Great, thanks guys 06:05:36 shachaf: should I read the HoTT book 06:05:47 or should I read the Smullyan book first 06:06:10 complexity zoo hs cite doesn't it 06:06:16 cites 06:10:02 i guess papers aren't really that friendly, though. 06:12:04 both of those textbooks are really good as far as presenting the field in a logical order from 'first principles' and explaining how things work and such 06:12:27 i think just reading complexity zoo and research papers would be... challenging 06:14:28 Erie Gauge War would be a good name for a band 06:15:20 are your last two messages related 06:15:35 and yeah i don't een understand most of complexity zoo >_> 06:15:37 no 06:16:08 isn't most of complexity zoo like ultra special purpose stuff from someone's PhD thesis that five people in the world understand 06:16:14 yeah 06:16:28 i have an addiction to such stuff. it's a problem 06:16:45 remember when you could get a PhD just for inventing an esolang and then proving it turing complete 06:17:25 now you have to invent a recursively enumerable family of esolangs and prove them monotonically increasing from presburger arithmetic to turing complete in the limit 06:17:28 imo kids these days 06:17:44 in coq 06:18:31 http://coq.inria.fr/V8.1/faq.html#htoc4 06:19:12 huh, presburger evaluators have to have a worst case runtime that's doubly exponential. v. prctical 06:19:46 "On the other hand, a triply exponential upper bound on a decision procedure for Presburger Arithmetic was proved by Oppen (1978)." 06:22:21 -!- ChrisW has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:23:41 -!- ChrisW has joined. 06:24:47 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:25:34 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:45:45 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:48:02 -!- Bike has joined. 06:49:32 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:51:49 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:53:16 -!- copumpkin has joined. 06:55:03 I like the old rule of mana burn in Magic: the Gathering cards. Such as, make up a card like: {T}: Add {WUBRG} to your mana pool. This mana is unusable. 06:55:43 -!- ChrisW has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 07:02:12 kmc: i haven't read the HoTT book :'( 07:05:29 how about read both concurrently 07:19:57 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 07:21:37 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:23:14 -!- sacje has joined. 07:33:09 -!- intosh has joined. 07:33:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-sander_racing 07:34:09 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:34:28 "-- the growing field of power tool drag racing --" 07:34:31 the growing field of power tool drag racing--yes 07:35:15 hi mnoqy 07:35:20 how come you're never here anymore 07:35:20 hi 07:35:28 never here? 07:35:41 is this the part where i sleep in the daytime or the part where i just don't say things 07:35:58 I meant the latter. 07:35:59 You sleep in the daytime? 07:36:19 recently, to avoid the heat 07:36:24 it's much nicer to be awake at night 07:41:14 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:09:04 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:41:53 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 08:44:35 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Client Quit). 08:46:56 -!- sacje has quit (Excess Flood). 08:47:29 -!- sacje has joined. 08:56:23 -!- carado has joined. 09:05:38 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:09:04 -!- sacje has joined. 09:20:44 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:50:01 -!- mnoqy has joined. 10:20:23 -!- yorick has joined. 10:54:48 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:56:48 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 11:23:02 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:35:31 -!- carado has joined. 12:30:09 -!- tertu has joined. 12:49:32 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:50:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:58:40 -!- nooodl has joined. 13:18:06 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 13:25:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:28:08 -!- nerflils has joined. 13:28:18 Decided to write a little hacking/programming puzzle: Step 1: http://pastebin.com/TyV4Eqpa 13:28:40 decode that moves onto step 2, then step 3, 4 etc. etc. 13:28:50 hi person who cannot keep to one nick 13:30:50 i don't mind your puzzles though, although they're not my kind. 13:31:10 well most of them. 13:31:19 oerjan: This si more lateral thinking :) 13:31:23 is* 13:33:43 oerjan: Get's more challenging :) 13:33:44 hm reminds me of the time i made a christmas crossword for the local gamer's club member magazine. i don't think anyone managed to solve that either. or maybe they just didn't say. and maybe i should have posted the solution in a later number, hm... 13:35:02 let's just say not everyone is good at estimating difficulty of things you make yourself. 13:35:27 What do you think of the challenge though? 13:35:31 What step are you on? 13:35:53 i said it's not my kind. encryption seems too random for me. 13:36:06 oerjan: How is base64 random? :P 13:36:16 (also its not all encryption) 13:36:31 ok i guess i can see that it's base64 13:36:52 http://pastebin.com/kKn0mNNA 13:36:54 step 2 :P 13:37:03 step 3: http://i.imgur.com/FX3fAd7.png 13:37:33 hey no spoilers now you've just convinced me to try a bit :P 13:38:44 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:41:47 http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L 13:42:20 -!- augur has joined. 13:47:38 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:10:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre. 14:37:14 -!- nooodl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:37:31 -!- nooodl has joined. 14:39:01 nerflils: mmm i'm solving it 14:39:13 it anagrams to "I am Lord Voldemort" 14:39:18 nooodl: step 4? 14:39:20 what? 14:39:20 no 14:39:24 http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L 14:39:28 jeez stop spoiling your own damn riddle 14:39:35 i decoded the base64 now i'm trying to figure out what it means 14:40:03 nooodl: Oh sorry! 14:40:05 with the °s 14:40:09 Ill leave you to it :P 14:40:30 what kind of solution am i supposed to be looking for here btw 14:41:34 nooodl: pastebin link 14:41:41 ahh 14:41:51 like what comes after the pastebin.com/ 14:42:21 oooh i was looking at the solution then, trying to figure out what it meant 14:50:24 -!- tertu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:57:00 no idea what '6sf' is 14:58:13 This time, I am going to practise before entering a SSBB contest 14:58:27 i think i found out how to apply the "tom marvolo riddle" clue to the base64 but it's not working so i probably need to use the integral thing somehow 14:59:54 nooodl: 6 sig figures? 15:00:01 ah 15:04:33 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:05:34 Hmm... 9:1 K/D 15:05:44 9/0 and I'll handicap myself 15:05:50 nooodl: So you think you have figured it out? ;) 15:06:29 maybe. no idea what to do with the value i got from the integral 15:07:38 for the other two lines -- the second line refers to DEFLATE doesn't it? 15:08:07 so i tried to zlib.decompress the string i get when decoding the third line but it's not working :< 15:26:50 -!- Bike has joined. 15:32:07 triple DES 15:32:35 -!- clog has joined. 15:37:32 nooodl: Anything? 15:38:27 oh hi 15:43:33 the first clue is much too vague. i assume it's the tripledes key, but 15:43:46 -0.212611? 0.212611? 212611? 15:44:15 also how was i even supposed to know about it being triple DES? 15:44:36 nooodl: ignore that 15:44:39 wrong channel 15:44:49 nerflils> triple DES 15:50:48 oh. 16:03:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:03:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:08:52 (i gave up btw) 16:09:35 :( 16:15:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:18:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:34:43 say foo x:xs = foo xs, foo [] = "who cares"; is foo [1..] guaranteed to be bottom? 16:35:31 Surely. 16:35:32 what else would it be? 16:36:09 "who cares", due to a liberal optimizer 16:37:12 That... cannot possibly be correct 16:38:18 well, i can't think of why you'd want bottom, so i'm wondering. 16:38:35 Infinite loops are one form of bottom. 16:38:45 Anyone able to solve the puzzle? :P 16:39:22 yeah, but there's no side effects so why would you want that, is what i'm wonderin 16:39:45 As specified it does not terminate. 16:39:52 Therefore it shouldn't. 16:42:32 hm... maybe you could want that as a sentinel so that a later summing doesn't eat memory with bignums, or something weird but conceivable like that 16:43:07 as specified it's a syntax error hth 16:43:22 ¬_¬ 16:43:29 (needs parentheses around x:xs) 16:43:52 -!- conehead has joined. 16:43:54 I guess the question here is: what breaks if you assume that all lists are finite, other than some bottoms becoming something else 16:45:11 the question i have is actually just to what extent if any are bottoms allowed to become something else. 16:46:08 Bike: foo x `seq` whatever would be a reasonable way to force spine strictness of a list, which can be useful. 16:46:39 yeah that's what i meant (assuming spine strictness means finity) 16:47:16 it means that every cons cell has been _evaluated_. 16:47:30 which requires finiteness, but is something more. 16:47:57 is that something more distinguishable, other than timing or something like that 16:47:58 well except there's no way to ensure finiteness without evaluating all the cons cells. 16:48:38 the static analyzer could hypothetically do some analysis couldn't it 16:49:07 [1..n] is finite (or bottom) and so on 16:49:22 Who can solve this? http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L 16:49:44 please rephrase in the form of haskell ephemera 16:49:58 wow i can't even read this, fuc. 16:50:08 Bike: anyway the rule in haskell is that recursions are defined as their denotationally least fixpoint, which is bottom if bottom _is_ a solution to the equation. 16:50:17 it is true that Haskell gets a lot of its performance out of aggressive inlining (whole-function-call-optimization, from the point of view of functions being called...) 16:50:19 oh, i see. 16:50:37 how's the order defined exactly? 16:51:40 Bike: scroll down for the pretteh graphs http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics 16:51:50 oh nooooo 16:54:03 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/File:List-graph.png oh ok got it. 16:54:08 kinda sad i understand that. 16:57:15 "There is a mistake, ():[] appears twice. Only the one marked with a red ellipse is correct, the other one should be ():\perp." 16:57:22 i saw. 16:58:03 So Haskell evaluation would be monotonic in this lattice, or something 16:58:32 which is actually a pretty boring statement 16:58:55 well it was a boring and pedantic queestion on my part to begin with, so that works 16:59:45 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:04:11 -!- ChrisW has joined. 17:04:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:09:30 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:14:53 -!- intosh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:21:27 -!- ChrisW has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 17:31:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:44:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:52:59 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:54:18 -!- sacje has joined. 17:55:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:56:09 -!- augur has joined. 18:09:37 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:11:05 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 18:19:02 -!- quintopia has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:10 -!- quintopia has joined. 18:19:48 -!- augur has changed nick to augur-afk. 18:29:33 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:33:06 According to http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Abbreviations HTH stands for Hope This Helps. I like Holy Toe Help or whatever it was better though. 18:34:28 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:35:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:38:27 -!- upgrayeddd has quit (*.net *.split). 18:38:27 -!- mtve has quit (*.net *.split). 18:38:28 -!- ggherdov has quit (*.net *.split). 18:38:28 -!- myndzi has quit (*.net *.split). 18:41:06 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:43:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:43:53 Who can solve this puzzle? http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L 18:46:21 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 18:48:11 -!- mtve has joined. 18:49:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:49:06 -!- upgrayeddd has joined. 18:49:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:49:36 -!- myndzi has joined. 18:49:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 18:50:24 -!- ggherdov has joined. 18:50:46 -!- Bike_ has joined. 18:51:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:51:08 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 18:51:25 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 18:52:01 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 273 seconds). 18:58:34 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:59:18 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 19:07:08 What would be the smallest Turing-complete sequent calculus? 19:07:28 Step 1: http://pastebin.com/TyV4Eqpa step 2: http://pastebin.com/kKn0mNNA step 3: http://i.imgur.com/FX3fAd7.png step 4: http://pastebin.com/WG0mSe6L 19:08:11 Why don't you post the URLs for raw access instead? 19:09:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 19:11:58 -!- nerflils has quit (Quit: Page closed). 19:16:11 -!- nooodl__ has joined. 19:20:08 -!- nooodl_ has quit (*.net *.split). 19:20:09 -!- neena has quit (*.net *.split). 19:20:10 -!- EgoBot has quit (*.net *.split). 19:21:11 -!- EgoBot has joined. 19:22:02 -!- neena has joined. 19:30:31 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: requested). 19:34:57 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:39:08 -!- Jafet1 has joined. 19:41:50 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 19:42:16 -!- augur-af_ has joined. 19:47:49 -!- Jafet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:47:49 I really need to get out of the habit of opening and closing my CD tray 19:48:50 As far as habits go, that really doesn't sound like the most destructive of them. 19:50:38 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 19:51:11 -!- quintopi1 has joined. 19:52:34 -!- jix has joined. 19:52:49 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:52:52 -!- augur-afk has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:52:55 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:53:01 Just did it while watching a movie 19:53:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (*.net *.split). 19:53:16 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 19:53:16 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 19:53:21 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 19:53:22 -!- atehwa has quit (*.net *.split). 19:53:26 -!- Gracenotes has quit (*.net *.split). 19:53:27 -!- jix_ has quit (*.net *.split). 19:53:32 did it again while maintaining the network 19:53:54 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl. 19:57:30 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:58:06 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:59:43 -!- Fiora has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 19:59:52 -!- atehwa has joined. 19:59:58 -!- Fiora has joined. 20:01:40 http://laughingsquid.com/terrible-jpeg-compression-transforms-the-tragedy-of-romeo-and-juliet-into-tej-uqahdfsmenolcr-dlculfgr/ cute 20:01:59 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:02:26 -!- EgoBot has joined. 20:02:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:03:06 Bike: I was typing a lame joke assuming that the URL just cut off after "into" and that the rest was a base 26 identifier type thing 20:03:07 good thing I clicked first. 20:04:05 -!- rodgort has joined. 20:04:06 -!- rodgort has quit (Excess Flood). 20:04:23 good thing 20:04:43 -!- sacje has quit (Excess Flood). 20:05:44 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Write error: Broken pipe). 20:06:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:06:32 I have lost every game I have played on FICS, apparently 20:06:33 http://ficsgames.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?player=Sgeo&action=History 20:06:43 At least the recorded ones 20:08:10 -!- rodgort has joined. 20:08:19 -!- sacje has joined. 20:12:29 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 20:14:12 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 20:18:57 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:21:52 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Changing host). 20:21:52 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:22:39 -!- intosh has joined. 20:24:25 Well, I've watched the Dark Knight 20:24:39 Tuesday night I'll watch Rises 20:32:09 Oh god I'm crying at Batman again 20:34:20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Erill_2011_EBM_Conference_Researchsome.png 20:34:29 Bike, why does Batman make me cry 20:34:49 Why can't the franchise be more like the Avengers and kinda cheery 20:34:52 That would be nice 20:35:03 well batman is all about grittiness and sadness. 20:35:09 you may recall that his parents are deeeeeead 20:35:29 But so are Iron Man's 20:35:32 Well 20:35:33 They're dead 20:35:38 Not quite deeeeeead 20:36:53 iron man also works in the bright and cheery real world rather than gotham, land of darkness and not having a sun 20:37:33 "The definition of home use excludes the use of this DVD at locations such as... oil rig" 20:38:20 but people live on oil rigs........ 20:38:28 just because you're at sea you shouldn't think you can simply watch DVDs you bought 20:41:47 In other news, I cannot wait for Thor 2 20:42:03 Or about half a dozen other movies coming out this year 20:50:23 -!- intosh has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:05:48 Does anyone on any channel of the IRC can answer my questions about the ephemeris? 21:06:18 I don't even know what the ephemeris 21:07:49 I was asking how to make/acquire the program to make ephemeris which is also including not only the position of the planets but also the rotation of planets (including Pluto). 21:08:35 Relative to the sun? 21:10:16 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:10:50 -!- coppro has joined. 21:11:21 I mean the rotations around their own axis. The positions can be relative to anything as long as it is consistent, although the position of the Sun still needs to be included, also relative to the same thing (it could be the Sun itself (in which case the Sun's coordinates are zero), or the barycenter, for example). 21:12:07 Well, you can approximate it with ellipses 21:12:39 But thanks to chaos theory and that it'll break down after a few thousand years or so 21:13:36 That reminds me 21:13:49 Well, it doesn't. but something else did, and I mayswell share this with you 21:13:59 I need to update my lists of things I need to thing 21:14:34 I know there are existing ephemeris such as JPL and Swiss Ephemeris (which will use data files and then interpolate), although I don't think Swiss Ephemeris can calculate the rotation of anything other than the Earth (neither can Astrolog; it will always display geocentric houses). 21:15:29 Do you also want to trace the path of the Galilean moons and possibly other moons too? 21:16:25 It would be a good idea to have them. 21:19:54 In what I am doing though, they aren't as important as calculating the rotation of Pluto. 21:20:00 Hang on 21:20:05 I am going to sleep now 21:20:11 And when I awake 21:20:19 I will go on an adventure 21:20:36 What adventure? 21:21:13 I will embark on a train to the far-off city of Newcastle 21:21:25 From where I shall walk south, into the heart of Gateshead 21:22:50 When I get there, I shall receive a temporary boon in the form of clothing 21:23:05 And I'll play some Guitar Hero and Super Smash Bros and what have you 21:27:24 -!- mnoqy has joined. 21:30:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:38:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:09:47 -!- augur-afk has joined. 22:13:19 -!- augur-af_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:14:36 -!- augur-afk has changed nick to augur. 22:16:22 My next esoteric programming language shall be called ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. 22:16:35 > length ",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,," 22:16:36 33 22:16:39 Yeah. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. 22:17:00 Now, what shall it be????????????????????????????????? 22:17:31 I dunno. Probably something based on the idea of conservation of resources. 22:18:52 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:43:18 ooh it has dropped http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0717/463097-trinity-college-dublin-pitch-experiment/ 22:46:01 Finally, my pitch swimming pool will reach fruition. 23:41:50 -!- conehead has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:42:53 -!- conehead has joined.