←2013-06-29 2013-06-30 2013-07-01→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:04:07 -!- sacje has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:25:41 <tswett> I wish dvorakbot were here.
00:25:47 <tswett> He really brightened up this channel.
00:25:51 -!- dvorakbot has joined.
00:25:55 * tswett sighs wistfully.
00:28:11 <oerjan> dvorakbot: what did you do again?
00:28:22 <tswett> Same thing as la_fen.
00:28:39 <Bike> $u a
00:28:40 <dvorakbot> U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A (a)
00:29:10 <tswett> List of dvorakbot's commands: http://pastie.org/8095682
00:29:21 <tswett> $newcard oerjan
00:29:22 <dvorakbot> Card 1: oerjan
00:29:33 <tswett> Congratulations on being a card.
00:29:45 <oerjan> eek
00:29:59 <tswett> $moveallto deck
00:29:59 <dvorakbot> Cards moved.
00:30:06 <tswett> $draw
00:30:07 <dvorakbot> No cards in draw pile.
00:30:14 <tswett> Whoops.
00:30:16 <tswett> $moveallto draw
00:30:16 <dvorakbot> Cards moved.
00:30:18 <tswett> $draw
00:30:19 <dvorakbot> Card drawn.
00:30:23 <tswett> I wonder what card it is!
00:30:50 <oerjan> $newcard orson
00:30:51 <dvorakbot> Card 2: orson
00:32:56 <olsner> what happens to these cards?
00:33:02 <olsner> where are they?
00:33:07 <tswett> $where 1
00:33:08 <dvorakbot> In pile: tswett's hand
00:33:10 <tswett> $where 2
00:33:11 <dvorakbot> Nowhere
00:33:16 <tswett> $where 3
00:33:17 <dvorakbot> KeyError: 3 (file "/Users/tswett/Documents/Hobbies/Programming/Python/phenny/modules/dvorak.py", line 139, in where_card)
00:33:32 <tswett> dvorakbot handles all errors gracefully.
00:35:31 <Bike> aha, now i know ur local username!
00:36:15 <tswett> Uh oh. Now you can )(4xx0r4t3 me.
00:39:10 <Bike> >:D, i am so 1337 at that
00:40:13 <elliott> s;top
00:41:50 <oerjan> only you can stop them elliott
00:42:27 <oerjan> or was it forest fires, i'm not sure
00:42:28 <elliott> actually that was directed specifically at bike hth
00:42:41 <oerjan> `factor 1337
00:42:43 <HackEgo> 1337: 7 191
00:42:48 <olsner> hmm, wasn't it oerjan who could stop forest fires?
00:42:55 <Bike> pretty sure it was oerjan.
00:43:08 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've never tried stopping a forest fire
00:43:34 <olsner> though I'm sure fungot could say that to lots of people if it wanted to
00:43:35 <fungot> olsner: you should do it. thanks for pointing out a pro ( or con). modulo a b)
00:43:57 <oerjan> modular arguments
00:47:04 <tswett> ‮"oof" <
00:47:58 <tswett> ‮.rof si retcarahc siht tahw erus toN
00:49:45 <tswett> Hm. "The right-to-left override, for example, can be used to force a part number made of mixed English, digits and Hebrew letters to be written from right to left."
00:53:45 <hagb4rd> would you mind to reactivate bike elliott?
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00:55:52 <tswett> $newcard clog
00:55:53 <dvorakbot> Card 3: clog
00:55:54 <tswett> $newcard EgoBot
00:55:56 <dvorakbot> Card 4: EgoBot
00:56:02 <tswett> $newcard fngot
00:56:03 <dvorakbot> Card 5: fngot
00:56:06 <tswett> Whoops.
00:56:28 <tswett> $delete 5
00:56:29 <dvorakbot> Card deleted.
00:56:31 <tswett> $newcard fungot
00:56:31 <fungot> tswett: the best explanation of what he meant
00:56:32 <dvorakbot> Card 6: fungot
00:56:32 <fungot> dvorakbot: but if i start generating absurd amounts of money from my sick leave and i have 0.8.6 running on this computer
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00:56:56 <tswett> This channel has a lot of bots.
00:57:05 <tswett> $newcard HackEgo
00:57:06 <dvorakbot> Card 7: HackEgo
00:57:07 <tswett> $newcard lambdabot
00:57:08 <dvorakbot> Card 8: lambdabot
00:57:11 <tswett> $moveallto draw
00:57:12 <dvorakbot> Cards moved.
00:57:13 <tswett> $shuffle draw
00:57:15 <dvorakbot> Pile shuffled: Draw pile.
00:57:47 <hagb4rd> tswett: can you also define rules? or are they defined someway?
00:58:02 <tswett> Nope, the rules are just whatever you've previously agreed on.
00:58:43 <tswett> The bot is unfinished, but it's also usable. It can do almost everything DvorakMUSH, I think it was, can do.
00:59:49 <hagb4rd> ahh.. i think i know that one
01:05:15 <hagb4rd> tswett: is dvorak a popular game where in the US?
01:05:35 <tswett> Nope, I think it's completely obscure worldwide.
01:06:16 <hagb4rd> oh if it's the game i know it's spoken "durak" and means "fool" in russian
01:06:59 <hagb4rd> and it's quite popular in germany ..so
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01:22:47 * oerjan suddenly recalls a silly norwegian children's song about a many-headed monster remembering his love affair in hawaii
01:23:07 <noloveinwaikiki> :)
01:23:54 <noloveinwaikiki> do you think you can find a version on the net?
01:25:04 <noloveinwaikiki> okay.. it's not that important
01:25:14 <noloveinwaikiki> don't mean to waste your time
01:25:47 <oerjan> "not available in your country" :/
01:25:55 <noloveinwaikiki> yt video?
01:26:26 <oerjan> oh there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Htk_XLPuWs
01:26:48 <noloveinwaikiki> great <3
01:28:30 -!- noloveinwaikiki has changed nick to hagb4rd.
01:34:23 <oerjan> turns out that video was recorded in trondheim
01:34:29 <oerjan> <- there
01:34:51 <elliott> oerjan: can I come visit
01:34:53 <hagb4rd> *mysticwindblowing*
01:34:58 <hagb4rd> :P
01:35:51 <oerjan> elliott: you can come to trondheim but we can never meet there hth
01:35:58 <elliott> oerjan: but what if I bring taneb
01:36:14 <oerjan> hm, tricky
01:43:48 <Sgeo> http://distractionware.com/games/flash/vvvvvvproto/
01:44:03 <Sgeo> This music doesn't seem to be in PPPPPP or VVVVVV
01:51:49 <Sgeo> kmc, http://www.souleye.se/adventure has songs that are on VVVVVV 2 but not 1 (I didn't even know there was a 2)
01:53:02 <elliott> is... is there a reason kmc is pinged
01:54:10 <hagb4rd> maybe because he's interested in that stuff
01:54:29 <hagb4rd> or because sgeo is evil
01:54:47 <elliott>
01:55:07 <Sgeo> Because kmc has expressed liking of PPPPPP previously
01:55:25 <elliott> and here i was going with the sgeo is evil hypothesis
01:55:44 <oerjan> WHY NOT BOTH hth
01:56:15 <elliott> hth hth hth hth
01:56:19 <elliott> monoids hth monoids hth monoids
01:56:49 <Bike> ok
01:57:06 -!- elliott has set topic: The channel for helpful people | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
01:57:15 <oerjan> > fix ("monoids hth" <>)
01:57:16 <lambdabot> "monoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
01:57:19 <oerjan> oops
01:57:22 <nooodl> hthmonoids
01:57:43 <nooodl> `? monoids
01:57:46 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
01:58:58 <nooodl> `learn hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids hthmonoids ...
01:59:02 <HackEgo> I knew that.
01:59:49 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/hthmonoid{s,} # hth
01:59:52 <HackEgo> No output.
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02:00:30 <elliott> i think this hth and monoids thing is getting a little out of hand.
02:00:55 <oerjan> easy hth hand
02:01:09 <Bike> i think it's gotten a lot out of hand & has gone from being kind of ««««ironically»»»» silly to just silly & also poop dumb
02:01:55 <elliott> Bike: but.
02:02:09 <Bike> Butt
02:02:18 <elliott> Bike: going further than is reasonable until it starts being funny again is arguably the whole idea here!!
02:02:21 <elliott> hth.
02:02:33 <Bike> that has never worked ever
02:02:49 <elliott> maybe you just haven't tried enough, hth
02:09:02 <hagb4rd> seriously? it's not as bad as it sounds..and maybe a direct consequence of that long-year-relationships grown in this channel.. but there's a lot of "insider" jokes or references made here.. they're cool sure, but may in worst case (which is not a tragedy) keep newcomers out..
02:09:37 <hagb4rd> but it's really not a problem
02:09:48 <hagb4rd> i think
02:10:13 <hagb4rd> most newbie are welcomed and always given a chance here
02:10:19 <hagb4rd> *newbies
02:13:08 <hagb4rd> on the other hand that is what makes a good community..development and preservation of culture
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02:17:01 <hagb4rd> shit i don't have any skin.. hope you can make any sense of this
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02:17:33 <oerjan> ...not the last line, no
02:17:48 <hagb4rd> development of culture?
02:18:00 <oerjan> "shit i don't have any skin"
02:18:06 <hagb4rd> oh this part
02:18:07 <hagb4rd> :)
02:18:22 <elliott> oerjan don't be so intolerant, if we can have bicycles we can have horrific jumbles of flesh and bone
02:18:37 <Bike> i don't have a lymphatic system :)
02:18:55 <elliott> I don't have an emphatic system
02:19:01 <elliott> the joke is Bike sux
02:19:30 <elliott> that one didn't really work so well :(
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02:20:43 <oerjan> bike jokes are tired and flat
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02:21:01 <elliott> ...
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02:28:20 <mnoqy> wow
02:29:21 <oerjan> mnoqy: now what
02:29:40 <mnoqy> yeah
02:30:16 <Sgeo> AOL is a commonly recognized root CA?
02:30:31 <mnoqy> if you say so
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03:27:47 <hagb4rd> and now for something completely different
03:28:41 <mnoqy> yes
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06:00:38 <zzo38> Quoting from a message on Chess Variants: "What is the interface of Chess and reality? Is Chess the unreal? Or the other way around. ... If Chess existed first, why not invent a Reality to conform to it? What reality would that be? ..."
06:00:56 <Bike> chesseality, imo.
06:02:20 <zzo38> I did write a reply. My own point of view is that mathematics is the real reality.
06:06:11 <fizzie> `thanks reality
06:06:13 <HackEgo> Thanks, reality. Theality.
06:06:51 <elliott> fizzie: a truce has been established. I am now neutral on speech recognition
06:07:37 <Bike> what
06:08:02 <elliott> ok, I still hate it a little.
06:08:47 <Bike> why would you give up your non-biology-related principles!
06:09:06 <elliott> if you think about it speech recognition = biology.
06:09:40 <zzo38> Can a game be defined with sequent calculus in a symmetric way? I have been able to define the subtraction game although the rules aren't symmetric for each player; the first player has to select a rule to follow (if the proof is working from bottom to top), while the second player selects which sequent above the line will be the next state.
06:09:55 <Bike> but the only similar thing between them is that you hate them! and that' snot even true any mroe! NOTHING IS REAL ELLIOTT
06:10:08 <elliott> Bike. shut up.
06:10:29 <elliott> also, speech recognition = humans = biology
06:11:08 <zzo38> No! They are related in this way, but it is different kind of things.
06:13:13 <zzo38> If there is a single sequent above and a single below the line, then you can define single-player games, such as sokoban. The axiom schema is positions with one player, any number of empty spaces, any number of crates-on-targets, and nothing else.
06:14:17 <zzo38> Therefore, any solvable game is a theorem of this system.
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06:15:49 <zzo38> Can you make anything similar, or make a better two-player game with this?
06:17:21 <Bike> elliott: zzo38's right here, man. it is different kind of things!
06:21:15 <Taneb> @messages?
06:21:15 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
06:21:18 <Taneb> Yay
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06:28:37 <zzo38> I have another idea about sequent calculus. Define a "macro" to mean following many rules, in a polymorphic way (but not necessarily as polymorphic as the original rules), and put together to form a single admissible rule. Therefore, a "theorem" is really a "macro" with nothing above the line. Isn't it?
06:47:54 <shachaf> kmc: least and greatest fixed points are so much imo
06:48:13 <shachaf> you should, like, learn about them and stuff
06:48:36 <Taneb> That reminds me
06:49:10 <Taneb> I need to write a blog post/essay/talk relating Taneb-style fixed curves to control-passing-style
06:54:18 <zzo38> Taneb: What are those things?
06:54:44 <Taneb> A pair of functions f and g such that f(g(x), x) = g(x)
06:54:53 <hagb4rd> splines?
06:55:13 <hagb4rd> o no..
06:55:24 <hagb4rd> that's more specific
07:00:09 <hagb4rd> no, it's absolutely somethin different
07:03:29 <Taneb> Bugger, I've made a stupid mistake
07:03:55 <Taneb> Okay, this has totally failed
07:04:25 <shachaf> Taneb: maybe you can answer my questions about fixed points instead then...
07:05:24 <Bike> i like banach's fixed points. they're p. good.
07:06:26 <shachaf> do you like Knaster-Tarski theorem....
07:06:31 <Taneb> I thought I was onto something deep
07:06:43 <Taneb> But I made the mistake of saying the xth root of x was 1
07:06:47 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fixed-point_theorems
07:06:47 <Bike> tarski's fixed points are also p. good
07:06:48 <shachaf> help
07:07:20 <Bike> have you seen the stuff about assigning truth values to weirdass sentences based on tarski's fixed points
07:07:23 <Bike> pretty cool imo
07:07:51 <shachaf> no but i heard about "definedness analysis and liveness analysis" or something
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07:08:00 <Taneb> Hang on
07:08:08 <Taneb> It approaches 1 as x approaches infinity!
07:08:10 <zzo38> What does it mean to "assign truth values to weirdass sentences based on tarski's fixed points"?
07:08:11 <Taneb> This could be useful!
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07:08:26 <Bike> uh lemme look
07:08:44 * Bike dives into pile of pdfs
07:09:37 <elliott> Bike: is that like the logic equivalent of zeta regularisation
07:10:11 <Taneb> No, I still can't make that assumption
07:10:40 <Bike> Taneb: also numbers have, like, more than one root.
07:11:26 <Bike> ugh where the hell is this paper. it was good
07:12:28 <Bike> and no it's not like zeta regularization very much
07:12:42 <shachaf> hey Bike
07:12:56 <shachaf> have you informed tarski that lattice theory is a waste of time b. you should really be doing category theory instead
07:13:20 <elliott> Bike: well I mean, in spirit.
07:13:34 * Bike sighs.
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07:13:54 <Bike> wow tarski's paper has about 2400 cites.
07:13:58 <Bike> imo, fuck.
07:14:25 <Taneb> imo read them all
07:14:28 <Bike> http://www.springerlink.com/index/H880Q5G6M9661313.pdf here, something about "categories" that cites it. ur welcome.
07:16:16 <shachaf> $39.95 hooray
07:16:58 <Bike> ok found it http://comet.lehman.cuny.edu/fitting/bookspapers/pdf/papers/TruthFalse.pdf
07:17:45 <Bike> it involves things being true and false because, like, lol.
07:18:32 <Bike> also it's actually kripke's not tarski's?? so you can tell him yourself shachaf.
07:18:45 <hagb4rd> lol
07:18:58 <hagb4rd> cheers
07:19:06 <Bike> hth
07:20:41 <Bike> i knew taneb's thing looked familiar. it's like an IVP where f = f', which is dumb but oh well
07:21:15 <Bike> or like a differential equation rather.
07:21:16 <Bike> a dumb one
07:25:06 <Taneb> Maybe the truth behind Assassin's Creed is that a logic with the axiom "forall x. x is false" is inconsistent
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07:25:35 <tswett> comp_Monoid_Elements_is_assoc : forall x y z, multiply_Monoid_Elements x (multiply_Monoid_Elements y z) = multiply_Monoid_Elements (multiply_Monoid_Elements x y) z
07:25:41 <tswett> I'm thinking there might be a way of making that shorter.
07:26:31 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, unless "forall" and "is false" is sufficiently restrictive, then yes it probably is inconsistent.
07:27:22 <tswett> What does x range over, there?
07:27:27 <tswett> If its domain is empty, then that axiom is true.
07:27:37 <Bike> i bet you couldn't find an x such that ¬x is true!!
07:28:00 <tswett> Now, a logic with the axiom "not P" for all formulas P would definitely be inconsistent.
07:28:29 <Taneb> tswett, the joke is, that when this is combined with the principle of explosion, you get "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"
07:28:37 <zzo38> tswett: I don't think that is necessarily inconsistent either if the logic is sufficiently restrictive.
07:28:54 <tswett> Taneb: hm, sounds true.
07:29:13 <tswett> Here, have a picture. http://i.imgur.com/tKns3wi.jpg
07:29:29 <Taneb> Seen it a dozen times at least
07:29:43 <Bike> still good though.
07:29:52 <zzo38> It isn't inconsistent unless all well-formed strings are theorems.
07:30:30 <Taneb> zzo38, what if the axiom itself is in its domain
07:31:21 <zzo38> Taneb: Well, of course it is in its own domain, but I don't think that changes what I said.
07:31:46 <Taneb> Because then it is trivially true (it is an axiom), but also false!
07:33:17 <tswett> Taneb: you have?
07:33:22 <zzo38> But maybe it isn't necessary "true" or "false" but can be a theorem or nontheorem, since "false" might not necessarily be meaningful in a logic such as this.
07:33:22 <tswett> Taneb: well, feast your eyes on this! http://i.imgur.com/tKns3wi.jpg
07:33:39 <Taneb> tswett, I've seen that at least a baker's dozen times!
07:33:54 <tswett> Yay, you said the thing I was hoping you were going to say.
07:33:55 <Taneb> zzo38, shh it was a bad joke
07:36:56 <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword
07:37:00 <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle
07:37:05 <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
07:45:55 <tswett> All right. So, given an object in a category, its endomorphisms form a monoid.
07:46:03 <tswett> This feels like a natural transformation.
07:47:13 <tswett> Maybe it's just a functor.
07:47:32 <tswett> From the category of categories to the category of monoids.
07:47:49 <tswett> Mm, no, that would mean that it turns every category into a monoid.
07:48:04 <tswett> This one, given a category, turns all of that category's objects into monoids.
07:48:29 <shachaf> Are you just talking about a subcategory with one object?
07:48:42 <tswett> Yeah, I guess I am.
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08:10:32 <zzo38> Taneb: Do you not want to learn to use a sword while riding a unicycle while blindfolded?
08:10:51 <Taneb> Yeah, why not
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08:18:17 <itsy> It's the World Egg Throwing Championships today :-)
08:39:00 <shachaf> constructivism, more like destructivism
08:39:07 <shachaf> the joke is that constructivism is bad
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09:02:06 <kmc> `pastelog the joke is
09:02:23 <kmc> `pastelogs the joke is
09:02:43 <shachaf> hi kmc
09:02:49 <kmc> hichaf
09:02:54 <kmc> why can't i paste logs
09:02:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14280
09:03:00 <shachaf> because no patience
09:03:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20487
09:03:04 <kmc> thackego
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09:03:42 <shachaf> how's sf
09:05:03 <kmc> good
09:05:42 <shachaf> did you know that fixed points are the best thing in the world
09:05:59 <kmc> there was a huge party in the middle of the street in the castro
09:06:11 <shachaf> i heard about such things
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09:06:38 <kmc> oh
09:07:23 <kmc> also a huge number of people in dolores park before that
09:07:48 <kmc> nice park
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09:10:49 <shachaf> so which this F-Fix thing
09:10:55 <shachaf> There's a category F-Fix(C) where an object is (X : C, f : X <-> F X) and an arrow (X, f) -> (Y, g) is an arrow h : X -> Y such that fmap h . f = g . h
09:11:06 <shachaf> s/which/with/ /me sighs
09:11:54 <shachaf> so if you have a forgetful functor : F-Fix(C) -> C does it have a left adjoint
09:12:05 <shachaf> by C i mean Hask btw
09:12:12 <kmc> i'm a forgetful functor
09:12:19 <shachaf> oh i guess not in general because that would be a monad
09:12:50 <elliott> kmc: me too
09:13:04 <shachaf> kmc: is the joke that you left adjoint unsmoked in sf
09:13:23 <shachaf> or maybe that's the opposite of the joke
09:13:37 <kmc> -_-
09:14:00 <shachaf> kmc doesn't like drugz jokes
09:14:03 <elliott> if we reduce kmc to just drugz all the time we'll drive him to drink
09:14:03 <shachaf> :'(
09:14:06 <elliott> [drinkz joke]
09:14:18 <kmc> thats ok i already drink all the time
09:14:36 <kmc> at this particular moment it is i who have reduced myself to drugz
09:14:39 <shachaf> drinkz <: drugz
09:14:47 <kmc> you're off the hook for that
09:14:53 <shachaf> how many drugz did you drugz
09:15:06 <kmc> in quantity or in number of different kinds
09:15:31 <shachaf> yes
09:16:34 <elliott> i'm drugz but only metaphorically
09:16:55 <kmc> somebody told me that all things are composed of drugs, math, and cardboard in varying ratio
09:16:57 <shachaf> fixed points are drugz
09:17:00 <shachaf> fixed pointz
09:18:40 <shachaf> elliott: driving someone to drink is good
09:18:45 <kmc> why
09:18:52 <shachaf> otherwise they might drink and drive
09:30:11 <fizzie> There's a new series of PSAs on avoiding drinking and driving going on on a local TV station, they're very cute.
09:30:34 <fizzie> There's a drinking bird and a drinking fish.
09:30:47 <elliott> kmc: should I stop making kmc drugz jokes
09:34:16 <shachaf> if kmc minds all these tasteless kmc drugz jokes i'll stop making them too
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09:40:30 <elliott> can't promise I'll stop making them but I might be able to install some kind of weekly quota
09:40:42 <shachaf> hi mnoqy
09:40:47 <mnoqy> hi
09:40:59 <shachaf> should i refrain from bugging you about fixed points like i've been bugging everyone else
09:41:08 <shachaf> btw fixed points are p. great
09:41:10 <mnoqy> hm most likely
09:41:30 <shachaf> hm ok
10:01:30 <elliott> kmc: look how great we are re: faq
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12:16:40 <FreeFull> shachaf: What is your fixed point?
12:17:37 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = \x -> (fix x shachaf,shachaf) in fix shachaf
12:17:38 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
12:17:38 <lambdabot> t2 = ((t2 -> t0) -> t2...
12:17:47 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = \x -> (shachaf x,shachaf) in fix shachaf
12:17:48 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t1 = (t1, t2)Occurs check...
12:21:33 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = fix in fix shachaf
12:21:34 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
12:21:34 <lambdabot> Expected t...
12:21:42 <FreeFull> > let shachaf = fix shachaf in fix shachaf
12:21:43 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
12:21:47 <FreeFull> Ok
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14:31:30 <Taneb> Is the sequence of the even naturals computable by a push down automaton
14:35:26 <oerjan> how does a push down automaton compute naturals?
14:36:03 <shachaf> hi oerjan
14:36:07 <oerjan> hi shachaf
14:36:16 <shachaf> any clues on fixed points
14:36:18 <Taneb> That is a question
14:36:42 <oerjan> Taneb: even a finite automaton can _recognize_ them, after all.
14:37:15 <Taneb> Some form of printy dealy?
14:38:12 <oerjan> i suspect they cannot, if printing a number means you have to look deep in the stack
14:38:29 <oerjan> because that obviously erases most of it
14:39:46 <oerjan> hm does a pumping lemma apply to output as well?
14:40:50 <shachaf> that'd be a pumpout lemma
14:41:05 <oerjan> shachaf: only that Knaster-Tarski was missing the Fixed-point theorem category. which i've now fixed.
14:41:26 <oerjan> (ok i guess i have learned some fixed-point theorems in my time.)
14:41:47 <shachaf> oerjan: plz add redirect knaster-tarski ----> Knaster–Tarski theorem
14:41:58 <shachaf> i just went to that page and it didn't exist
14:42:11 <shachaf> thx hth wwod
14:42:21 <oerjan> shachaf: um surely you'd get a direct suggestion. i think that's overdoing it.
14:42:36 <shachaf> uh
14:42:50 <shachaf> have you seen the redirect pages wikipedia has
14:43:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well it shows up if you _search_ for knaster-tarski, anyhow.
14:44:21 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway read http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/fixed+point instead
14:44:36 <shachaf> it's p. good as nlab pages go
14:48:20 <oerjan> too tired
14:48:32 * oerjan thinks he may have a cold
14:50:37 <oerjan> hm what does the pumping lemma correspond to directly on pd automata.
14:51:26 <oerjan> hm i think a pd automaton with only output is sort of equivalent to a pd automaton that accepts only one input...
14:51:41 <oerjan> (well, if deterministic.)
14:53:02 <oerjan> in this case the accepted input is infinite, but i doubt that makes much of a difference?
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14:55:27 <oerjan> Taneb: i think that's equivalent to asking if the language of strings of the form "2,4,...,2n" (with your chosen output representation) is context-free.
14:56:29 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure the pumping lemma disallows that.
14:57:22 <oerjan> in fact you don't even need to restrict it to _even_ naturals, it cannot produce the naturals themselves.
15:09:02 <oerjan> <tswett> Now, a logic with the axiom "not P" for all formulas P would definitely be inconsistent. <-- hm is intuitionistic logic inconsistent with that?
15:10:21 <oerjan> if you cannot deduce P from not (not P), then it's no longer _obvious_ that you can get an inconsistency from that...
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15:11:05 <tswett> If a : not (not P) and b : not P, then a b : False.
15:11:39 <oerjan> oh right duh
15:12:14 <oerjan> you need to disallow False -> P somehow.
15:14:20 <tswett> Disallow ex falso quodlibet?
15:14:37 <oerjan> yeah
15:15:24 <oerjan> isn't that what paraconsistent logics do, or maybe they just don't allow you to deduce false
15:15:44 <tswett> I think both are options.
15:16:01 <tswett> But I think it's more common for (P and not P) not to imply False.
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15:16:34 <oerjan> ok
15:17:24 <oerjan> because if you wanted to keep the intuitionistic definition of not P = P -> False, the other option would seem better
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15:31:07 <oerjan> holy shit my electric razor short circuited
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15:56:54 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
15:57:01 <oerjan> oh wait
15:57:04 <oerjan> `revert
15:57:07 <HackEgo> Done.
15:57:11 <oerjan> `revert
15:57:18 * oerjan confuses himself
15:57:21 <HackEgo> 1065) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
15:57:24 <HackEgo> Done.
15:57:34 <oerjan> `quote 1065
15:57:36 <HackEgo> No output.
15:57:41 <oerjan> `revert
15:57:44 <HackEgo> Done.
15:57:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, how hard is it to use a sword...
15:57:54 <oerjan> wait wtf did i actually revert
15:57:57 <oerjan> `quote 1065
15:57:57 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, not hard
15:57:58 <HackEgo> 1065) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
15:58:01 <Taneb> But well?
15:58:09 <oerjan> `help
15:58:09 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:58:13 <Taneb> That is another matter entirely
16:00:28 <Phantom_Hoover> `? HackEgo
16:00:30 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
16:01:13 <Bike> has anyone ever called it HackBot
16:02:17 <oerjan> Gregor hth
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17:15:55 <Sgeo> My computer's power button is broken
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17:17:56 <oerjan> basically electronics are collapsing all over the globe hth
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18:04:41 <Sgeo> I can't seem to force myself to give myself over to Feedly
18:05:54 -!- longsight has left.
18:06:11 <Bike> is this a sex thing
18:06:15 <Bike> be honest
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18:13:02 <Sgeo> Ok, so power button _sometimes_ works
18:13:10 <Sgeo> Depending on how I jiggle it I think
18:13:36 <Sgeo> Yes, my computer is that physically broken that the power button is somewhat mobile
18:21:25 <olsner> hint: buttons usually move when you press them
18:32:23 <Sgeo> Is there any technical reason it wouldn't be possible to waterproof a USB port?
18:34:31 <olsner> maybe it's because most usb peripherals aren't waterproof, so there wouldn't be much of a point
18:35:07 <Sgeo> There would still be a point though: More room for user error, so if the USB cover is accidentally left open, it's not a big deal
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18:41:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, what do you... what does that even
18:41:46 <Phantom_Hoover> sure, just enclose it in a watertight housing
18:41:47 <Sgeo> Are you talking about the power button or waterproof USB ports?
18:42:10 <Sgeo> With the "what does that ever"
18:42:12 <Sgeo> even
18:42:13 <Sgeo> dammit
18:42:31 <Phantom_Hoover> but that'd be a probably-needless expense
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19:05:43 <Koen__> so I'm watching this espionnage show and they're always like "rendez-vous at the swimming-pool, this way I'll be sure you're not carrying a listening device"
19:06:09 <Koen__> I'm waiting for any one of them to realize they could just enclose it in a plastic bag and tadaaaaa water-proof
19:06:12 <myname> reminds me of the simpsons
19:06:47 <myname> it may be water-proof, but is it anal-proof?
19:06:56 <Koen__> what does that even
19:07:26 <myname> i believe the main idea is that you don't wear much clothes at the pool
19:07:35 <myname> having a hard time hiding equipment
19:07:42 <myname> besides, well... inside yourself
19:07:51 <Koen__> oh
19:07:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:07:57 <olsner> normal swimming trunks have plenty of space to hide a bug
19:08:24 <Koen__> well he explained it several time as "even if you managed to hide a device in your bathing suit, the water would shortcircuit it"
19:08:58 <Koen__> and although the camera keep wandering around all the women in bikini, the men are wearing large swimming trunks as alsner said
19:09:01 <Koen__> olsner sorry*
19:09:14 <myname> another question is: if it is water-proof, will it still work?
19:09:20 <olsner> yeah, would a waterproof bug pick up the above-water sound properly?
19:09:35 <myname> can you still record stuff inside a water-proof bag?
19:09:43 <Koen__> well it doesn't have to stay underwater it just has to resist getting wet
19:10:24 <Koen__> and yeah if it's a thin layer of plastic you should be alright
19:11:01 <hagb4rd|afk> a condom works pretty well..no joke
19:11:18 <Koen__> you should be a spy
19:11:22 <hagb4rd|afk> used that on a mike under water
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19:11:30 <Koen__> oh you're already a spy!
19:11:44 <hagb4rd> spypig M
19:11:48 <hagb4rd> oinki oink
19:12:19 <hagb4rd> btw what the heck are ya talking about5
19:12:37 <olsner> bugs in swimming pools
19:12:42 <hagb4rd> is taneb still not james bondß
19:12:49 <hagb4rd> aw
19:12:50 <hagb4rd> ok
19:13:56 <Koen__> hagb4rd: do condoms work with usb ports?
19:14:07 <hagb4rd> shit i was just typing that
19:14:16 <Koen__> :-)
19:14:27 <hagb4rd> it's worth a try
19:15:09 <myname> why would you fuck a usb port?
19:16:25 <myname> i mean, it can't be THAT small, can it?
19:16:41 <hagb4rd> tight usb port
19:16:51 <hagb4rd> fresh and nasty usb
19:16:58 <hagb4rd> yummy
19:17:32 <hagb4rd> that's stupid
19:17:53 <hagb4rd> let's talk about sth else
19:18:01 <hagb4rd> esoteric languages or sth
19:18:26 <hagb4rd> what is your favourite esolang sgeo?
19:19:37 <hagb4rd> or koen or myname or whoever reads this
19:19:53 <myname> mine is still befunge
19:20:12 <Koen__> I have to pick a favourite esolang?!
19:20:17 <hagb4rd> u can
19:20:17 <Koen__> nobody warned me
19:20:21 <Sgeo> I don't have a favorite esolang. I do have a favorite esolang-related project: PSOX.
19:20:35 <Sgeo> (Note: PSOX not necessarily actually favorite esolang-related project)
19:20:35 <myname> what's this?
19:20:44 <Koen__> I guess I like those which are very original, like /// or Thue
19:20:56 <Koen__> well "string-replacement" is more accurate than "original"
19:21:06 <olsner> I like the graph one... is that eodermdrome?
19:21:19 <myname> ah, that
19:21:21 <Koen__> I would probably like eoderdrome if I had ever took time to understand it
19:21:51 <hagb4rd> @google site:esoolang.org PSOX
19:21:52 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
19:21:59 <hagb4rd> @google site:esolang.org PSOX
19:21:59 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
19:22:04 <hagb4rd> fuck u lambda
19:22:05 <myname> esolangs
19:22:08 <Koen__> @google site:esolangs.org PSOX
19:22:08 <lambdabot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
19:22:08 <lambdabot> Title: PSOX - Esolang
19:22:15 <hagb4rd> thx
19:22:16 <olsner> string rewriting is nice because you can find it in the wild so often
19:22:44 <Koen__> why do I have a picture of sunflowers in my head
19:23:22 <Koen__> olsner: is that a joke or do you have examples?
19:24:10 <olsner> e.g. sed (though it's quite overtly doing string rewriting, so I'm not sure it counts), mod_rewrite, sendmail
19:25:33 <Koen__> no sunflowers eh
19:25:42 <Koen__> you and I don't have the same definition of the wild
19:26:12 <Bike> indeed, wild animals hardly ever use sendmail, in favor of SMS
19:26:50 <hagb4rd> spoken poetry
19:27:35 <olsner> in that kind of wild I guess you see cellular automata more (which might actually be the same thing if you think about it right)
19:28:28 <hagb4rd> what was the name of the esolang which interpretes midi files again
19:28:35 <hagb4rd> flute
19:28:35 <hagb4rd> no
19:28:44 <Koen__> there are at list two
19:28:49 <Koen__> oh wow
19:28:51 <hagb4rd> well?
19:28:53 <Koen__> there are at least two
19:29:02 <hagb4rd> ..
19:29:08 <hagb4rd> ...
19:29:23 <hagb4rd> how are they named?
19:29:26 <Koen__> but you could make a list with two items
19:29:37 <hagb4rd> oh you're not talking to me
19:29:42 <Bike> Fugue was one
19:29:43 <Koen__> prelude and fugue
19:29:47 <hagb4rd> fugue!
19:29:49 <hagb4rd> right
19:29:54 <Bike> like, you know, the musical form.
19:29:59 <hagb4rd> that one is quite embarrassing
19:30:09 <hagb4rd> yea, i forgot
19:30:16 <hagb4rd> that word
19:30:31 <Koen__> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?search=music
19:30:38 <Koen__> apparently Choon produces music as output
19:31:37 <hagb4rd> and it really sounds not bad
19:33:47 <hagb4rd> i looked up embarrassing and its totally not the expected meaning.. wow
19:33:55 <hagb4rd> erm i mean it's awesome
19:33:59 <hagb4rd> let's have awesome
19:34:20 <hagb4rd> plain old awesome languagew
19:43:57 <zzo38> A text adventure game on a thirty-column display seems to be limited.
19:45:26 <hagb4rd> what display has 30 columns?
19:45:47 <hagb4rd> a phone?
19:46:10 <zzo38> If you take overscan into account so that the leftmost and rightmost columns are not used, then the Famicom will have only thirty columns available.
19:47:55 <hagb4rd> zzo is programming his washing-machine again
19:49:30 <hagb4rd> maybe it's a chinese text adventure.. they don't neeed much space, also they often write top-down (vertical)?
19:49:33 <zzo38> If a font is used which is good in all uppercase, that can simplify the text decoding.
19:50:34 <zzo38> No, it isn't a Chinese text adventure.
19:50:41 <hagb4rd> okay..
19:51:53 <zzo38> (I don't really think Chinese (or any other language that cannot be written with ZSCII) is really suitable for text adventure games, as far as I can tell.)
19:52:17 <hagb4rd> sry, i somehow missed the kickoff infos
19:52:27 <Bike> zscii is the universal standard of gaming, after all
19:52:29 <hagb4rd> just go agead
19:52:36 * hagb4rd shuts up
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19:53:29 <hagb4rd> @google zscii
19:53:31 <lambdabot> http://inform-fiction.org/zmachine/standards/z1point0/sect03.html
19:53:31 <lambdabot> Title: The Z-Machine Standards Document
19:53:44 <zzo38> Bike: No, not really; this has nothing to do with ZSCII in particular, I just mean that they are what is available in the ZSCII character set, not that it necessarily has to do anything with ZSCII.
19:57:36 <Sgeo> :( is my Esc key seriously broken? ugh
19:59:02 <zzo38> How do I know?
19:59:29 <olsner> Sgeo: yes, I went into your home and broke it
19:59:35 <hagb4rd> is that your phone again sgeo?
20:00:02 <hagb4rd> otherwise remap to ..erm..caps lock ..or scrolllock
20:00:23 <hagb4rd> and get a washable keyboard
20:03:52 <hagb4rd> i promised myself to buy a washable one next time
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20:06:36 <zzo38> I almost got "Aimfiz" Z-machine interpreter working, except text styles.
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20:13:22 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, no, the laptop I'm using now
20:24:49 <Sgeo> `slist
20:24:51 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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20:33:22 <ion> wtf http://www.wekkars.com/
20:35:39 <mnoqy> brilliant
20:35:41 <Bike> haha.
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22:03:18 <oerjan> quintopia: does stuff matter?
22:06:59 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
22:07:03 <quintopia> oerjan: please apply your frying pan to yourself
22:08:33 <tswett> In case you don't have a frying pan handy, here's one you can use: ⊸
22:08:41 <tswett> Unfortunately, it's very small.
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22:24:20 <oerjan> okay ⊸
22:24:31 <oerjan> why does it look like a square tdnh
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