00:01:42 why are you depressed? 00:02:35 my life is bad 00:02:44 no friends 00:07:14 where do you live? 00:07:23 uk 00:07:28 what kinds of things are you interested in 00:07:31 katla: :( 00:07:38 katla: clinically, or just sad? 00:07:46 clinically 00:07:52 aww, that sucks 00:08:07 dont know about interests 00:08:18 i know that i need to pick up some 00:08:25 not sure which 00:08:49 can you think of anything you enjoy doing? 00:10:28 you were talking about haskell and theory of computation before, right? 00:11:16 there are a few Haskell meetup groups in the UK 00:11:28 yeah i used to be into programing languages but not really a nymore 00:11:38 something something anhedonia 00:12:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 00:17:54 -!- augur has joined. 00:18:02 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 00:19:37 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:02 Can you play mahjong? 00:22:07 no 00:23:51 Can you play chess? 00:24:21 badly 00:24:48 Clinical depression is t3h suck. 00:25:59 t3h 00:26:19 oh no now you said it too... 00:26:23 Yes. 73|-|. 00:26:30 oh no 00:27:03 los soque 00:27:23 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:35:19 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:50:43 damn i thought you guys would cure me 00:53:34 fresh out of panacea, srry 00:54:06 sorry! I guess I was kind of in that trap a year or two ago (though I still kind of am) of "oh gosh I need to find non-programming hobbies and friends and communities and things" 00:54:13 but I'm not sure I have a magic answer 00:55:38 Fiora how did it go? 00:56:04 did you makeprogress 00:56:50 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 00:58:41 * Fiora tries to put it into words... I kind of went and dived into non-sciencey things (since I was already a hopeless wikipedia-absorbing science doof), especially things I could socialize with others about (even like, online) 00:59:14 like for me I went and read homestuck and got involved with that, I played more games of the sort with fandoms I could bond with others about (Persona, Tales, etc) 00:59:56 and generally like trying to aim my attention at everything other than programming to counter way too many years of academia 00:59:59 sounds good 01:00:52 and take the chance (10 years late) to be a bit more, well, girly about things, I guess 01:01:07 hmm maybe i should try that 01:01:09 i don't really have a desire for non-programming hobbies, so much as more non-programmer friends 01:01:18 clearly these are related though 01:01:39 my girlfriend knows a lot about plants & birds & mushrooms and that sort of thing, and I've really enjoyed learning about that 01:01:43 and having more excuses to go outside 01:01:55 kmc: Does she know what birds are? 01:02:03 I had a very narrow focus growing up and now it's neat to learn some of the things I'd been ignoring 01:02:08 shachaf: probably 01:02:11 whoa 01:02:52 speaking of whoa, "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; America Online Browser 1.1; rev1.2; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)" 01:03:04 I think that's a referer spam bot, though. 01:03:06 user-agent strings own. 01:03:11 america on line 01:03:21 also, i'm clinically depressed and doing uhhhhh better. school and stuff. 01:03:56 kmc: that's really how I felt to, I was like, gosh all this stuff outside programming is /so fun and interesting/. 01:04:16 also learned a little bit about cooking, baking, etc 01:04:18 fun stuff 01:04:22 going to try homebrewing beer I think 01:04:27 and I mean it wasn't totally new t me, like, I mean, I was bombarded with astronomy/physics stuff before I learned programming even but 01:05:11 but that's not quite as far away from programming as fandoms or writing or cooking or... 01:06:28 Good if you know some things about astronomy and physics. I am also interested in physics. But I am also interested in mathematics. 01:06:53 We should all aspire to be more like zzo38. 01:06:59 (Just a bit more, though.) 01:07:55 * shachaf goes to play Potion of Confusing again. 01:08:17 Four bombs only! 01:08:19 zzo38 what mathematics are you interested in 01:08:21 This time maybe you know how to do it better? 01:08:30 Notice also that Jesus saves. 01:08:39 Does Jesus save all those who do not save themselves? 01:09:02 I guess it makes me kind of weird though because I'm now like, a programmer who sometimes would rather write fanfic than code... 01:09:13 katla: All mathematics in general, really. However, I have studied various mathematical things in Wikipedia such as category theory and logic and surreal numbers too. 01:09:26 Fiora: Why write fanfic and not just fic? 01:09:38 because I'm even worse at fic <.< 01:09:42 Fiora: Well, I suppose some people don't always want to write the same thing. (That includes myself.) 01:09:56 Fiora: imo you should write fic 01:10:23 maybe you can get your own fans 01:10:25 -!- sacje has quit (Quit: sacje). 01:10:42 Fiora: well I don't think it *should* be weird for programmers to sometimes want to do things other than programming 01:11:16 the archetypal obsessive programmer is not really a happy or healthy character 01:11:32 kmc: I agree. Sometimes I play Dungeons&Dragons game. Sometimes you write on the IRC. See? 01:11:35 yeah 01:11:40 i don't spend that much time programming really 01:11:59 but it might be how i spend most of my 'structured' time 01:12:00 Fiora but you didnt meet any new friends 01:12:03 ? 01:12:04 kmc: real programmers write n their weblogs all day about what real programmers do 01:12:10 seriously 01:12:24 Actually I have a C program open right now which I am also working on. 01:12:33 zzo38: Is it a Famicomulator? 01:12:55 Maybe zzo38 should move to SF and work on Rust! 01:12:55 katla: I met a lot of new people online I guess? I mean like almost everyone I know now, I know through non-programmer-related connections, I think 01:13:02 Just imagine rust.zzo38.moed. 01:13:08 oh thats cool 01:13:26 shachaf: No, it isn't, this one is a Z-machine interpreter with SDL. However, maybe I will try to make Famicom emulator too afterward at some time. 01:13:48 it suits business interests for young people to think that a singleminded obsessive is what they're supposed to be :/ 01:15:13 Well, being obsessive of it can help too. 01:16:17 imo you should be fix (obsessed with being) 01:17:19 shachaf: I think that might be difficult. But, you have to be (among other things too), to be genius. 01:19:03 http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kWGMkslnkdg/TzCiO7moT5I/AAAAAAAAKlE/OreQvmM8SxA/s1600/calvin_hobbes_dont_knock_smock_2.gif 01:19:53 Fiora: you should become a fan of calvin and hobbes 01:20:03 and then write calvin and hobbes fan fiction (or not) 01:20:16 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.). 01:20:42 Hmm. Computability topology. A hypothetical topology on N, such that the set of all continuous functions N -> {0, 1} is equal to the set of all computable functions N -> {0, 1}, given the discrete topology on {0, 1}. 01:21:39 Is the intersection of two computable sets a computable set? Yes. Is the union of arbitrarily many computable sets a computable set? No. 01:22:31 http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1989/07/15 01:22:38 Wait, why not? 01:22:39 http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1990/07/26 01:22:53 or wait you mean recursive and not recursively enumerable alt. i don't remember how anything works. 01:22:55 So that doesn't work. If we use the Sierpi(n with an acute accent)ski topology, nothing changes. 01:23:07 Yeah, I do mean recursive, not recursively enumerable. 01:23:25 If we're talking recursively enumerable... then yes, if we say that the open sets are precisely the recursively enumerable sets, we have a topology. 01:23:34 Wait, do we... yes, we do. 01:23:45 How is the union of recursive sets not recursive? 01:24:13 Wait, no, we don't. 01:24:34 Any set {a, b, c, ...} can be written as the union of the sets {a}, {b}, {c}, ..., each of which is recursively enumerable. 01:24:41 Recursive, for that matter. 01:26:03 This seems like the sort of thing that ought to make a topology somehow. 01:26:15 Can we say the open sets are those sets which are *not* recursively enumerable? 01:26:45 Uh... clearly not, since the empty set and N are both recursively enumerable (recursive, for that matter). 01:32:46 katla: sorry! don't feel compelled to stay, but I remember you used to be around quite a bit and everyone was wondering where you'd gone! 01:33:08 #epigram still has your topic :P 01:33:19 yeah 01:33:42 You are also not compelled to type something all the time even if you do stay. 01:33:51 -!- carado_ has joined. 01:34:11 However, even if you don't, you can still read the message on the logs, so that's OK anyways. 01:35:05 #epigram must have so many cobwebs 01:35:32 didn't pigworker say that epigram is dead 01:35:47 long live epigram 01:38:05 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:39:48 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:59:10 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: NihilistDandy). 02:17:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:17:37 -!- mnoqy has joined. 02:23:14 -!- katla has quit (Quit: katla has no reason). 02:32:24 Should I read that HoTT book everyone's talking about? 02:32:53 yeah 02:33:10 damn, katla left 02:35:01 eh, quit earlier too 02:35:08 they've been in and out 02:59:11 -!- TodPunk has joined. 02:59:53 good night kmc 03:00:07 @night elliott 03:00:07 Unknown command, try @list 03:00:09 oopse 03:00:13 ♞ elliott 03:00:52 night elliott 03:01:12 nelliott 03:01:31 good nelliott 03:01:32 nellie lovett 03:01:42 elliott's secret identity?! 03:02:12 elliott's secret Identity?! 03:02:57 elliott's secret runIdentity?! 03:14:05 kmc: it's monad joke o'clock in #haskell are you sure you don't want to join 03:14:35 I suppose, shachaf. I sachaf. 03:15:20 y'all are really bad at convincing people to join #haskell 03:15:52 ;_; 03:15:57 Bike: well it's an insider's club 03:16:09 we never wanted y'all to join anyway 03:16:11 too good for you 03:16:37 You wouldn’t be able to afford the monthly fee anyway. 03:17:37 Bike: you should come to #haskell btw 03:17:41 it's the best 03:18:20 i just made the monad jokes stop with my iron fist 03:18:26 @yarr 03:18:26 Is that a hornpipe in yer pocket, or arr ya just happy ta see me? 03:18:42 bike: You already have missed many monad jokes, you should join soon. 03:19:11 Is that a monad in yer monad, or arr ya just ap-y ta see me? 03:19:33 you're welcome 03:20:20 @arr 03:20:20 Swab the deck! 03:20:30 @array 03:20:30 Ahoy mateys 03:21:17 GHC should also just pick the closest match silently instead of erroring out and telling you about them. 03:21:27 A.k.a. DWIM 03:22:15 DWIM is great because it's really do what you think i think you will think i think you will mean 03:22:23 much better than just saying what you want 03:24:08 Also, in case of a type error, GHC should substitute values (including functions) with others in scope that make the type error go away. 03:24:54 why limit it to scope!? 03:25:19 True, it might as well import modules when it seems to help. And install packages, too. 03:25:36 it's just more convenient 03:26:19 ion: Simpler to use unsafeCoerce. 03:26:24 never ever give the programmer an error message 03:26:26 they hate those 03:27:43 if you must give an error message it should be inserted at an arbitrary location in the HTML you're serving to users 03:28:01 Upon finding the substitutions that fix the program, GHC should also modify the source file automatically. 03:30:39 or delete it 04:20:20 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:20:45 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 04:44:55 -!- asdfasd has joined. 04:48:32 i wonder if hagfish can be caught in finland 04:48:43 they exist in sweden apparently 04:49:13 -!- asdfasd has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:51:54 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.). 05:02:22 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:03:18 -!- asdfasd has joined. 05:07:51 -!- TodPunk has joined. 05:08:06 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:09:22 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 05:39:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:42:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:10:02 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:21:47 -!- asdfasd has changed nick to GOMADWarrior. 06:22:47 kmc: did you see http://www.concatenation.org/futures/whatsexpected.pdf by chiang 06:23:19 (v. short, one page) 06:24:41 not yet but I just realized he wrote http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v405/n6786/full/405517a0.html too 06:24:44 which is good and i did read it 06:26:17 Oh, I think that was in the book. 06:27:33 is this transhumanist 06:27:33 * kmc has read it now 06:27:34 v. good 06:56:30 -!- augur has changed nick to Israel_B_. 06:56:45 -!- Israel_B_ has changed nick to augur. 06:59:36 -!- augur has changed nick to israel_b. 06:59:48 -!- israel_b has changed nick to augur. 07:03:55 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:05:23 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:07:43 -!- Bike has joined. 07:13:45 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:23:39 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:33:49 -!- carado_ has joined. 07:57:53 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 08:00:31 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 08:16:54 -!- carado has joined. 08:20:26 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:22:24 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:33:20 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:51:39 -!- SirCmpwn has joined. 09:04:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:05:05 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:05:33 Hello 09:20:17 Last week I found a book in the library titled "Can smart people believe in God?" I agree with much of what they wrote but I think they have too much Christian bias in some of their arguments. 09:20:56 (The author is Christian, and I don't blame that, but I think the argument is too much Christian bias anyways.) 09:21:56 They compared being scientific but not spiritual, or being spiritual but not scientific, as being like watching the universe with only one eye open. 09:22:22 I suppose I can see the analogy there. 09:22:33 I do disagree with some things he writes, though. 09:26:21 They say even atheists believe in things, depending on the atheists, such as Randomness, etc. Randomness? Isn't that like believing in your left hand but not the rest of your body and your surroundings? It is an analogy I made up, because, it is only a part of it! 09:28:14 What do *you* think of this????? 09:29:06 zzo38: I agree with you. 09:30:02 shachaf: Entirely with what I wrote, or..... something else? 09:31:21 Yes. 09:32:06 Do you have any other comments about this? 09:32:29 Only this one. 09:33:25 O, OK. But, I don't think you should agree/disagree without questioning it at first. If you do that at first, then OK. 09:33:59 I considered questioning it, but you had used so many question marks that I wasn't sure whether I'd have any left. 09:34:39 Yes you can have whatever you want left. 09:35:35 Do I have any rights left? 09:35:48 Yes, I think so. 09:51:47 -!- sacje has joined. 09:53:48 -!- nooodl has joined. 09:56:43 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:05:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:06:33 I can't into rivers 10:07:28 oops 10:09:44 did you into river 10:12:01 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 10:14:45 oh no, into river! 10:14:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:31:17 kmc: i read the rust tutorial. it looks p. good 10:40:53 -!- mnoqy has joined. 11:06:18 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 11:07:38 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:08:02 Aaaah hi 11:10:33 why did you say aaaah 11:12:17 Because I just finished exams 11:19:39 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 12:06:11 -!- sacje has quit (Quit: sacje). 12:26:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:28:21 oops 12:28:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit). 12:34:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:37:11 AAAA carpenters 12:37:19 (i let them in, too) 12:38:49 kmc: Does she know what birds are? <-- birds are dinosaurs hth 12:38:53 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 12:42:10 01:09:56: Fiora: imo you should write fic 12:42:10 01:10:23: maybe you can get your own fans 12:42:22 are there any fanfics that have their own fanfics 12:54:32 Taneb: FREEDOM? 13:01:38 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 13:15:09 -!- katla has joined. 13:16:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:18:10 -!- katla has left. 13:18:13 -!- katla has joined. 13:40:33 -!- Koen_ has joined. 13:56:52 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 13:59:08 -!- abumirqaan has changed nick to upgrayeddd. 14:01:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 14:02:14 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*elieser22@*. 14:02:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 14:02:38 let's see if his connection has fixed itself. 14:03:12 oerjan: that wasn't a connection issue really, they /parted not /quit 14:03:17 well maybe they have a really weird bouncer or something 14:03:27 probably they've gotten bored now though 14:03:28 well ok 14:04:29 > 2794285/86400 14:04:31 32.341261574074075 14:10:48 i wish freenode didn't keep resetting the ban dates 14:11:13 hi 14:12:59 it's sort of nice to be able to see which bans are old... 14:15:06 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 14:16:55 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has changed nick to Nisstyre. 14:23:18 hi kmc :) 14:24:50 i am up early to receive a shipment 14:27:08 @time kmc 14:27:09 Local time for kmc is Mon Jun 24 10:27:08 2013 14:27:16 that is early 14:27:26 though later than what I expect when most people say "early" 14:27:42 since apparently people are superhumans who think getting up at 9 am is reasonable or whatever 14:29:23 yeah what's with that 14:30:01 people are superhumans who think being /at work/ at 9 am is reasonable 14:30:39 when i was in high school i had to be at school by 8 or whatever but I could also exist on zero sleep back then 14:30:52 if you too have this power elliott: enjoy it while it lasts 14:31:16 kmc: uh it depends what you mean by "exist" 14:31:37 like I frequently have not slept in 24 hours but I wouldn't say I function particularly well under those circumstances 14:32:33 does mozilla involve being at work at 9 am "the worst possible thing" 14:32:39 i don't think it does 14:33:05 i don't mean absolute number of hours without any sleep at all 14:33:16 more like can you function on 4 hours of sleep a night indefinitely 14:34:49 how can you take on a job without first figuring out whether you need to be up at an ungodly hour. adults 14:34:56 anyway uh I haven't really tried 14:34:59 well I have a few times 14:35:10 I guess I can theoretically do it but would want to die pretty quickly 14:35:46 being woken up by an alarm is the worst experience 14:36:02 Would Not Recommend 14:38:41 -!- FreeFull has joined. 14:41:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:44:54 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:45:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:03:54 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:11:07 it's usually expected that your working hours have at least some overlap with other people's working hours 15:11:21 e.g. so you can talk at each other and pretend to collaborate 15:23:51 i recall my dad's workplace had something like "core hours" when you had to be there, but then a part outside that which you could choose more freely. 15:24:28 yeah, that's common 15:24:54 Mozilla has lots of people working remotely and from different time zones 15:25:20 their attitude about offices is like... if there's an office near you and you want space there, you can have it 15:25:26 but they do have really nice offices 15:25:43 kmc: it takes a special kind of person to work from a different time zone without actually being in a different place 15:25:55 haha 15:26:22 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel for "special" people | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:26:47 hi 15:28:07 hi katla 15:28:09 hi katla 15:28:33 whats up 15:28:34 Bike: so i thought about the ai thing, and i seem to recall that once upon a time i used to call the stupid kind of ai stuff combinatorial optimization. perhaps seeing the arxiv feed every day has not been good for my brain. 15:28:45 the sun is up 15:30:01 5talk 15:30:09 btw google scholar updates are pretty magical, like 30% of its suggestions are interesting 15:30:16 katla: i'm up early (by my standards), waiting for someone to deliver a huge box 15:30:22 i will then load my possessions into that box 15:30:27 and they will ship it to california 15:30:31 cool 15:30:40 i mean interesting enough that i feel like i should read them 15:31:28 ooh i want a huge box too 15:32:18 packing and moving is a pain 15:32:25 but it's not too bad this time 15:32:26 oh that's what you're doing 15:32:34 i do not envy you anymore 15:32:50 last time i moved it was like 50 meters, and it still took almost a day 15:33:00 heh 15:33:10 in college we used shopping carts for that purpose 15:33:30 stolen from the local grocery 15:33:37 if you're really lazy you just park your shopping cart full of clothes and stuff in your new room and don't bother unpacking it 15:33:44 i didn't even have to go outside to move stuff from the old apartment to this one 15:33:51 it just becomes a piece of furniture like a dresser 15:34:12 in the weeks leading up to moving day, people would hoard shopping carts and stash them in secret locations 15:34:19 :D 15:34:42 i've always wanted a shopping cart but stores refuse to sell theirs and stealing is wrong or something 15:34:57 -!- Koen_ has joined. 15:35:00 yeah 15:35:11 I only stole carts from the people who'd already stolen them 15:35:14 that makes me a good guy right 15:35:16 yes 15:35:24 unless they stole it from someone who stole it from a store 15:35:31 in which case you are an asshole 15:35:34 oh no 15:35:45 i'm going to have to move all my shit back from warwick in a couple of days 15:35:55 i am not looking forward to that 15:35:55 to where? 15:37:17 back to edinburgh 15:37:47 so today, me and my coauthor started our first article on cellular automata where our supervisor is also coauthoring 15:38:15 (i have something about picture languages with him, but we never did anything together before for some reason) 15:38:58 Phantom_Hoover: are you quitting university 15:39:08 no, i'm just moving out of halls 15:39:20 oh err what does that mean 15:39:31 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortiecat. 15:39:42 heh they're still going strong http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Bounded_gaps_between_primes 15:39:55 almost at 10000 now 15:40:26 oklopol, halls of residence are the on-campus accomodation you stay in for the first year 15:40:46 -!- nortiecat has changed nick to nortti. 15:41:40 oerjan: eventually it will turn out that the lowest you can go is 3, hth 15:41:51 O KAY 15:42:13 elliott, was that deliberate 15:42:18 (that's actually impossible) 15:42:31 Phantom_Hoover: i thought of the quip before i realised the problem. then i realised the problem quickly. then i decided it made the joke better 15:42:42 then i said it. 15:43:58 pardon my stupidity, but why is that not possible? 15:44:13 oh. 15:44:17 :D 15:44:28 oklopol: because there are only two primes that are 3 apart hth 15:44:45 which is the second... 15:44:48 oh 15:44:51 * Phantom_Hoover idiot 15:45:09 happens to the best of us 15:45:11 maybe the twin prime conjecture is independent and the lowest you can go in ZFC is 8294 15:45:33 it's incredible they have a finite bound 15:45:56 how would you even prove that 15:46:21 well the project started after someone found out how 15:48:06 oerjan: 12,006 is very good 15:53:39 the most recently published gap proof seems fun, it required a sufficiently large N, got an upper bound on that N, and manually checked every thing below it 15:54:06 hurrah for computer-assisted proofs 15:54:20 * oerjan looks at edinburgh in google maps, it seem to have a huge number of golf courses 15:54:45 *seems 15:54:54 oerjan: okay, wow, that's incredible 15:55:31 I just assumed there was a proof or two discovered; there's actually over a dozen improvements a day on some days 15:55:43 i keep thinking my solution to moving should be to not have stuff 15:55:50 but no matter how much stuff i get rid of I still have quite a lot 15:56:01 though I think still a lot less than people my age are expected to 15:56:17 -!- nortti has changed nick to __builtin_nortti. 15:56:19 kmc: you have more stuff than you think, especially when you put it in boxes 15:56:25 yep 15:56:30 Gracenotes: i think to improve on it now all they need to do is find a fairly small set of numbers which satisfies some decidable property or something? 15:56:39 or at least i remember reading something like that 15:56:44 so it's not surprising there's rapid iteration if so 15:57:12 do you understand the proof 15:57:15 of the original bound 15:57:46 -!- __builtin_nortti has changed nick to nortti. 15:57:46 * Gracenotes does not understand the math, or the theorem that makes the bound possible 15:57:50 anyone 15:58:03 i haven't tried 15:58:23 beyond what elliott said 15:58:43 number theory is too hard for me 15:59:35 I mean, we're computer scientists, the most we do with theoretically with numbers is represent them using unary 15:59:41 right.... right 15:59:56 (for those of us that are computer scientists) 16:00:54 oko and oerjan are both mathematicians... 16:01:54 dunno, nowadays i think of myself more as a mathematician wannabe, my papers have no integrals 16:02:05 not many at least 16:03:23 so btw cool perhaps-result from today: a size 2 neighborhood surjective CA on a prime alphabet is permutive in one of the coordinates 16:03:57 what's a prime alphabet? 16:04:01 (it's cool because no good characterization of surjectivity is known) 16:04:05 alphabet of prime size 16:04:58 acronym? 16:05:13 CA = cellular automata if that's what you mean 16:05:35 ah, I see, and size 2? 16:05:48 its neighborhood has size 2 16:06:00 the next state is based on looking at some 2 cells, relative to the current cell 16:07:03 oerjan: speaking of mathematicians, do you know much about permutations... 16:07:06 mm, I see :o 16:07:31 all cellular automata arise in this way, for some value of being the same as 16:07:34 elliott: well a bit... 16:10:38 oerjan: well the cardinality of the set of permutations of A is |A|^|A| = 2^|A| when A is infinite and so I'm wondering about the details of the bijection between bijections between A and A and functions from A to A this should give you... 16:11:45 oh i thought this would be about the symmetric groups 16:12:00 DISAPPOINTED 16:12:36 dont you have to use axiom of choice to go from |X| = |Y| to a bijection X -> Y? 16:12:41 oklopol: you can pretend I said the cardinality of the symmetric group of A if that would help 16:12:55 katla: no, that's the definition of |X| = |Y§ 16:13:01 surely it's easy to inject either in the other, and then just construct the solution with the axiom of constructable choice. 16:13:08 *|Y| 16:13:09 no, it doesn't use choice it uses excluded middle 16:13:21 I'm also wondering if the bijection is a natural isomorphism or whatever or if it depends on the details of A... 16:13:40 although _defining_ |X| may be awkward without choice 16:14:03 point is you dont have an explicit bijection you just know one exists 16:14:36 anyway, if you have injections, then i believe the proof of the schröder-bernstein theorem is quite constructive. 16:14:53 katla: i suppose 16:14:54 there is some way to label permutations of A by subsets of A but it's probably completely arbitrary 16:14:55 yeah, but then my awesome joke doesn't work 16:15:01 katla: yeah... I'm interested in seeing what such a bijection looks like "in practice" 16:15:05 like if A is just the naturals or whatever 16:15:26 i imagine it as acompletely random (since we dont know anythinnf about it) 16:15:27 katla: that may be, but i wouldn't say it's a priori clear 16:16:02 elliott: i suspect the bijection is hideously unnatural 16:16:13 yeah I realise it might not even be a computable bijection... 16:16:25 oh i expect it's computable 16:16:53 oerjan: maybe the other form, a bijection between bijections between A and A and functions from A to 2, is cleaner?? I don't really know what I'm doing... 16:17:05 i dont think its computable, how could it be? 16:17:15 you would need a constructive proof of its existence 16:17:26 hm well maybe it depends 16:18:04 oh maybe you need choice to prove the cardinalities are the same. 16:18:06 katla: well maybe for a specific A? 16:18:26 like even just seeing an (N <-> N) <-> (N -> N) would be interesting to me 16:18:30 it doesn't matter what A is as long as |A| = |N| 16:18:39 yeah 16:19:08 elliott: N -> N should be easy. an injection from N <-> N to N -> N is trivial, of course. 16:19:14 computable in what sense? like, for numerable A, you can compute the image of a \in A from knowing a long enough prefix of the characteristic sequence of the subset or something? 16:19:38 oerjan: just the identity you mean? 16:19:42 yeah 16:20:04 an injection the other way shouldn't be too hard. 16:20:26 and when you have those, the schröder-bernstein construction is constructive, as i said. 16:20:32 oklopol: well I mean in the sense of you can construct a Coq expression of type (bijection (bijection nat nat) (nat -> nat)) 16:20:34 from N -> N to N <-> N is very easy too, just permute adjacent pairs and encode the images of every number 16:20:57 sounds reasonable 16:20:58 like permu, permu, permu, no permu in the beginning would code that 1 goes to 3 16:21:08 or well, maybe not constructive, but explicitly definable 16:21:37 hmm, is the reduced form actually (N -> 2) when you're doing it constructively or is it (N -> Prop)...? I know "powersets" are usually defined as the latter 16:22:43 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:24:02 of course i don't really have a clue about real constructiveness hth 16:24:22 I need a faker mathematician :( 16:24:38 maybe oklopol, I bet people call him a computer scientist all the time 16:24:45 XD 16:25:27 i suspect schröder-bernstein might use the excluded middle at least 16:25:38 I pretend to be a mathematician sometimes 16:25:39 they do :( 16:25:42 Can I be of service? 16:25:45 elliott: my feeling is it's (N->Prop) ... (N->2) is "decidable subsets" or something like that 16:26:26 mnoqy: right but (N -> Prop) -> (N <-> N) sounds really unlikely to be non-trivial without excluded middle... (N -> 2) -> (N <-> N) much less so 16:26:32 the other day this dude who does all the practical computer stuff was like "so oklopol i bet you run virtual oses all the time" and i was like omg that sounds scary and just kinda disappeared 16:26:44 so my hunch tells me that either the reduction to 2^|A| doesn't work constructively or it's actually 2 16:27:10 oerjan: yeah An important feature of this theorem is that it does not rely on the axiom of choice. However, its various proofs are non-constructive, as they depend on the law of excluded middle, and therefore rejected by intuitionists.[1] 16:27:21 ok 16:28:18 o-oh 16:30:57 elliott: yeah for the proof given, presumably you need LEM to determine whether it's A/B-stopper or doubly infinite 16:31:02 the same guy (at work btw, seems i forgot that detail) always catcher me in the hallway and starts talking about his latest problems with installing stuff and i don't understand anything and just nod politely 16:31:12 oh, or cyclic. 16:31:48 is this the fun vertex matching proof 16:32:18 well there's a graph there, so probably 16:32:37 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schröder-Bernstein_theorem#Visualization 16:32:41 hm maybe you can do (N -> 2) <-> (N <-> N) by taking the 2 to mean "displaced" or something... 16:32:48 that seems to be the only one that's possible to remember 16:32:51 * elliott starting the day with quackery 16:33:09 yeah that thingie 16:36:48 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myhill_isomorphism_theorem 16:37:01 was this mentioned already 16:38:18 nope 16:38:35 sounds related 16:38:41 yeah 16:38:48 anyway 16:38:51 bye 16:38:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: CU). 16:39:45 how did oklopol know oerjan was going to leave 16:39:58 by the magic of reading 16:40:26 reading... or conspiracy 16:40:34 yeah 16:40:38 :O 16:40:43 shiiiit 16:41:06 you totally caught me 16:41:28 i love the blinking text 16:42:05 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 16:50:31 how do you do it in irsi 16:50:40 irssissippi 16:50:48 ^F 16:51:06 hallo 16:51:36 im thankfully not seeing it 16:51:41 Moo? 16:51:51 I am not either 16:52:04 Probably using the wrong terminal or something 16:52:05 Is this suppose to show up as something other than a unsupported-Unicode-character box? 16:52:13 @messages 16:54:46 Gregor: it blinks in irssi 16:55:02 welp 16:55:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:54 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:00:58 well this is annoying 17:01:03 i've successfully annoyed myself 17:01:06 thanks a lot Bike 17:03:05 np 17:04:56 my moving pod is here 17:05:02 time to climb in 17:05:07 and wait 17:05:17 could probably rent it for $800/mo in sf 17:05:29 elliott: i have a friend who would do that 17:05:38 bet people do it all the time 17:05:40 he would hide in your clothes hamper for 3 hours just so he could jump out and scare the shit out of you 17:06:14 it's sort of like being a sniper 17:06:26 I think every time someone scares me like that I lose a few years of life 17:08:16 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:14:09 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:30 Every time someone scares me like that, the flashbacks kick in and I kill them. 17:14:44 So, THEY use a few years of THEIR life. 17:17:50 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:18:08 http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/breaking-news-dead-man-found-in-hexham-burn-1.1065270?referrerPath=home 17:19:05 Things happen in Hexham, apparently 17:22:18 @wn courant 17:22:20 No match for "courant". 17:22:33 is this like some crazy british spelling of "current" 17:23:22 the hexham currant 17:23:47 dead in a burn? 17:24:35 mnoqy, burn also can mean stream sometimes 17:24:52 you crazy brits 17:27:47 Yeah, it took me a while to realize that "burn" was not the verb. 17:28:04 I was thinking, "they found a burnt husk of a corpse?" 17:28:58 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:32:29 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:34:07 -!- Bike has joined. 17:50:32 -!- samebchase has left. 17:57:48 hexham voultage 18:00:56 i thought burn was scots 18:01:02 i guess hexham is basically in scotland 18:01:41 Phantom_Hoover, Northumbrian dialect bears much similarity to Scots in places 18:03:19 -!- jsvine has joined. 18:04:14 -!- hiato has joined. 18:19:24 -!- conehead has joined. 18:28:09 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 18:35:25 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:37:27 Oh no I am still reliant on a website that will be discontinued in less than a week 18:43:30 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined. 18:43:40 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:43:40 -!- augur has quit (Read error: No buffer space available). 18:43:51 -!- augur has joined. 18:46:02 -!- Bike_ has joined. 18:46:35 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:48:22 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:49:40 Taneb, google reader (i thought that was already down) 18:49:49 Yeah 18:49:53 It goes down on the 1st of July 18:50:27 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 19:09:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:09:47 -!- carado has joined. 19:09:56 -!- Bike has joined. 19:13:19 so apparently Scala doesn't have parametricity. I blame copumpkin for making me discover this. 19:14:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:14:54 is that because the supertype shared by all objects contains enough rope to break it? 19:15:20 it seems to just literally give you typecase 19:15:21 def const3[A](a: A, a2: A): A = (a, a2) match { 19:15:21 case (s: Int, s2: Int) => if (s < s2) a else a2 19:15:21 case _ => a 19:15:21 } 19:15:25 http://failex.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/fake-theorems-for-free.html 19:15:38 very nasty 19:15:53 Hmm 19:15:55 I guess they figure, Java lets you do it, so there's no point hiding it because Java APIs will already break parametricity 19:16:09 Could subtyping work in a Haskell-like language? 19:16:38 yes but it's ugly (Scala has subtyping) 19:17:14 Like, data Foo = Foo {a :: Int, b :: Char}; data Bar extends Foo with {c :: Bool} 19:17:20 Would that work? 19:17:36 yes but it's ugly 19:18:28 elliott is prejudiced against subtyping 19:18:45 a subtypist 19:19:09 You would be able to use Bar with functions that are (Foo -> a) but not (a -> Foo) 19:21:02 In away, all types are subtypes of () 19:21:17 I am going to call that the "trivial supertype" 19:22:04 not Void, huh 19:22:22 Bike, I think Void is sort of a subtype of every type 19:22:34 I shall call that the "trivial subtype" 19:22:46 The type () is what is called a final object; does that have anything to do with it? 19:22:46 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:22:47 wow this is so exciting huh elliott 19:23:00 zzo38, I think so! 19:23:03 hello Bike 19:23:14 helliott. 19:24:46 -!- carado has joined. 19:24:47 This subtyping thing becomes ugly when combined with polymorphic types 19:24:55 :( 19:26:53 Do you need two extending, one for addition and one for multiplication? 19:27:02 -!- mnoqy has joined. 19:27:36 zzo38, I haven't thought about addition 19:28:02 Taneb: have you considered lens-subtyping vs. prism-subtyping hth 19:28:31 With multiplication you get Bar->Foo and if you define Bar with addition then you will have Foo->Bar instead, I think, isn't it? 19:28:42 zzo38, I think with sum types the subtyping would sort of be the other way rou --- yeah 19:30:01 No, the subtyping is still in the same direction. 19:30:10 It's just that the function that you have is different. 19:30:17 Or maybe you mean the same thing I mean. 19:30:19 shachaf: That is what I meant. 19:30:41 I meant Bar->Foo and Foo->Bar are the types of the functions that it would make. 19:30:42 shachaf, with product types the larger definition is the subtype, with sum types the smaller one is 19:31:36 This gets messy when you have more complicated types 19:31:41 I shall now stop thinking about it 19:31:43 It's not about cardinality, exactly. 19:31:47 hey no don't do that 19:31:48 help 19:32:41 taneb is my hero 19:33:37 whats this about subtyping 19:33:55 I did write a Haskell program that will allow various modules that know a module defining a record type to each add fields without knowing each other, and the first module doesn't have to know about them either. 19:34:57 However, you need to define a way to make default values of each fields, so that a value of such a type can be constructed. It is possible for the default value to depend on something, and whatever defines the record type also defines what type is needed to make up the default values. 19:36:27 It could be used as another way to make global variables, instead of using unsafePerformIO and NOINLINE. 19:36:28 zzo38: hey you know that haskell program that gave different output depending on which language extensions were enabled? 19:36:31 do you still have that? 19:37:07 elliott: Yes I do have that. 19:37:19 is it available over HTTP? 19:37:36 Yes. http://sprunge.us/edTV 19:37:53 well. 19:37:59 thanks! may I share it with someone I know? do you want attribution? 19:38:36 You can share it if you want, modify it if you want, give attribution if you want (it isn't required), etc 19:39:20 thank you 19:39:28 nicecode zzo38 19:39:36 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 19:40:17 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:40:20 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 19:59:06 it's too god damn motherfucking hot 20:05:11 @google boston weather 20:05:12 No Result Found. 20:05:15 help 20:06:06 ~metar EGNT 20:06:18 METASEPIA 20:08:24 it's going to hit 97°F / 36°C today 20:08:32 :O 20:09:38 @temperature kmc 20:09:38 Unknown command, try @list 20:09:42 oh you said 20:09:43 imo move to sf 20:09:46 that is very hot 20:09:55 "it's the only way" 20:10:32 shachaf, remind me 20:10:43 How many people in this channel other than you live in San Francisco 20:10:52 I don't live in San Francisco. 20:11:03 That is not what I asked 20:11:21 It's what I /implied/, yes, but not what I asked 20:11:29 Taneb: You should change your person-addressing character to use a colon instead of a comma. 20:11:43 shachaf, I did for a while, but it felt wrong 20:11:44 how come 20:12:00 , is the devil. 20:12:12 It feels like part of a sentence instead of part of a protocol. 20:13:27 why should it be a protocol 20:13:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:13:56 that's what it is 20:14:09 Certainly I don't want people saying my name in every sentence. 20:14:20 No, when I say, eg, "shachaf, hi!", in my head I am saying your name 20:14:43 but are you pronouncing the ch correctly 20:14:44 it's the nominative! 20:14:46 OK, then it's just rude. 20:15:09 Phantom_Hoover, what would the vocative be? 20:15:15 fuck 20:15:19 did i mean the vocative 20:15:30 fuck, how are you? 20:15:36 romanos eunt domus 20:20:11 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 20:23:12 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:24:28 -!- Koen_ has joined. 20:37:23 19:59:06: it's too god damn motherfucking hot 20:37:23 20:05:11: @google boston weather 20:37:36 yeah, that's how it was the one time i was in boston too 20:37:50 what time of year 20:37:50 yep. 20:38:24 kmc: around 4th of july 20:38:29 ok 20:38:34 (we watched the fireworks) 20:39:10 Last time I watched fireworks it was my birthday 20:39:47 `pastelogs taneb.*birthday 20:39:53 * oerjan whistles innocently 20:40:00 oerjan, 3rd of November 20:40:16 oh. why are there fireworks then 20:40:32 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19940 20:40:33 Closest Saturday to Guy Fawkes? 20:40:38 ah 20:40:38 2 days early 20:40:42 efb 20:41:20 ... 20:41:23 `? efb 20:41:24 efb? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:41:25 | 20:41:25 o/`¯º 20:41:30 hahaha 20:41:41 endorphins for barter 20:41:51 it's a drugz thing 20:41:51 `? myndzi 20:41:53 myndzi? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:41:53 | 20:41:53 o/`¯º 20:41:55 electric flying bananas? 20:42:09 `learn myndzi keeps us all on our feet 20:42:13 I knew that. 20:44:36 "edit: fuck, beaten" 20:45:47 is that a sommethingawful thing? 20:47:07 it's an internet thing 20:47:18 maybe originating from SA (like so many internet things) 20:47:24 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:56:13 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:58:10 -!- mnoqy has joined. 21:05:33 if anyone is interested i am streaming the masterpiece of game design "dot action 2" http://www.twitch.tv/neostairs 21:05:52 stairs 2: revenge of escalator 21:07:24 wow what the heck is this 21:08:31 dot action 2 21:08:44 elliott you have to jump all the way to the top come on man. 21:08:48 i know 21:08:49 i'm sorry 21:08:51 i'm so sorry 21:09:07 u fucked up 21:09:25 what's with all the japanese 21:09:25 this looks so horribly unfun 21:09:25 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:09:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 21:09:52 is it encoded in ascii somehow? i'm wondering if zzo made this 21:10:42 what the hell do all these numbers mean................ 21:10:54 ZET lets you walk through lava 21:10:59 oh 21:11:01 ok 21:11:01 katla: it's the greatest game ever made actually 21:11:34 wow that was a "pretty intense jump" good job 21:11:52 that jump? not so intense 21:12:11 yeah you need to rev up the intensity there, imo. 21:13:36 good death animation 21:14:01 whats great about it 21:14:47 the circus music 21:14:48 it's beautiful 21:14:56 possibly it's a Dogma thing 21:15:00 also in like 40 levels it stops bothering to make sense 21:15:08 cant wait 2 see 21:15:15 i forget how far i got in that game 21:15:29 is this like. why are you doing this 21:15:42 yes 21:15:58 oh 21:16:07 you're just addicted to the beep sound 21:16:54 oh i think i remember this level 21:17:07 what time units are being used exactly 21:17:13 TIME 21:17:34 right 21:17:37 katla: it's true 21:19:18 how can you bare playing this 21:19:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:19:57 i think it's a ritualistic thing 21:20:09 I was hoping it was actually an AI he wrote for the purpose 21:21:56 it seems like you could write an AI to play this game 21:22:01 but it would take a lot of effort 21:22:17 better just to get some chump to play it for you 21:22:59 i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left 21:23:21 wow i already hate this level. 21:23:23 http://www.theonion.com/articles/register-number-one,32928/ 21:23:36 katla: "this is N for people who don't like fun" 21:23:45 hehe 21:25:10 `addquote i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left 21:25:14 1061) i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left 21:25:47 the fact that it goes black when you talk on irc is scary since it implies that you're actually playing 21:26:41 elliott explained it elsewhere actually: this is just a youtube let's play and it goes black when he's switching to the next video 21:26:46 nobody played this gaem 21:26:56 ***Game 21:27:01 ok phew. 21:27:27 so uh. why are you streaming a let's play 21:28:16 mnoqy forgot to mention i was joking 21:28:31 shut up don't ruin my dream. 21:28:48 im going to do this next level without sound to show how hardcore i am. 21:29:18 whats ZET 21:29:36 lava immunity 21:29:46 lava being the beige orange dots 21:29:54 ok i hate this level. 21:29:57 Bike: i'm glad you recognise they're lava 21:30:00 some people think they're electricity 21:30:02 but they're so wrong?? 21:30:18 confession: i only know because monqy said so 21:30:28 oops 21:30:34 i knew it was lava without anyone telling me 21:30:40 katla > bike, imo 21:30:53 hey. hey there's sound!! 21:32:21 what 21:32:21 im glad for this stage 21:32:25 how have you been watching it without sound 21:32:45 no i've been watching it w/ sound 21:32:45 the sound is the only good thing about it 21:32:49 but you said you were turning it off! 21:32:55 elliott: probably in reference to 14:28:49 im going to do this next level without sound to show how hardcore i am. 21:33:10 oh i just muted it on my computer 21:33:45 i think this level is the worst. 21:34:05 ha ha ha ha ha 21:34:15 prepare 21:34:19 hey nooodl did you beat dot action 2 21:34:20 Like at least seven worst 21:34:27 what i dont understand is why you'd even want to complete this level 21:34:36 no i got to stage 50ish and i'm on "post traumatic stress hiatus" 21:35:10 katla: some people walk on coals. some people go to the dentist. some people play Dot Action Two 21:38:08 i can't even fail at this level in a good way 21:38:09 basically elliott is a flagellant. 21:38:11 only embarrassing ways 21:39:57 elliott: You have to jump between the tall things. 21:40:03 yes. 21:40:05 i'm aware. 21:40:25 Make sure you aim your jumps so that from each tall thing you land onto the next tall thing. 21:41:28 Don't touch the lava things. Really you shouldn't be anywhere near the lava on your return trip, it's way below where you should be (which is: on top of the tall things, or between them, in the midst of jumping between the tall things) 21:43:13 WHY 21:43:26 This level is at least nine bad. 21:43:29 IMO. 21:45:04 oh 21:45:12 the jumps are blind 21:45:27 god bless america 21:45:36 yeah it would be easy if you could see where you were jumping 21:45:43 what is bike playing 21:45:54 The give elliott helpful advice game 21:46:17 elliott 21:46:18 no 21:46:44 you're playing a trial-and-error platformer 21:47:04 you understand. 21:47:06 you should know better 21:47:17 elliott knows nothing. 21:47:20 are you watching 21:47:23 he's enlightened. 21:47:38 did you learn nothing from the support group! 21:47:52 @ask sgeo i have a BYOND-related question for you. i know. i'm sorry world 21:47:52 Consider it noted. 21:47:55 (also: are you using OSX???) 21:48:10 he's using Haiku with reskinned windows 21:48:48 arch just wasn't obscure enough i guess 21:49:20 Bike: do you really 21:49:21 i dont want to watch any more of this horrid game 21:49:36 it's like a cat rubbing sandpaper on my eardrums 21:49:49 elliott: i'm sorry................................. 21:49:58 what is BYOND 21:50:06 katla: neither does anybody else. we're trapped 21:50:06 some thing sgeo likes 21:50:24 uh oh... this is 21:50:30 wow 21:51:15 thislevel is the worst ye 21:51:15 t 21:51:23 it's like VVVVVV 21:51:25 except not fun 21:51:52 technically the gravity direction never changes 21:51:56 everything else does! 21:52:07 Bike: isn't BYOND the thing used for space station 13? 21:52:16 yeah that's why im asking 21:52:42 since i'm thinking about playing it but if it's a web client that would be nice and convenient. 21:52:49 wow nicely done 21:52:55 yessss first time!!! 21:53:05 good level 21:53:18 what happened 21:53:22 he won 21:53:22 everything else does! 21:53:23 the level 21:53:31 there was an option for this in VVVVVV! 21:53:52 no elliott 21:53:54 you can't stop now 21:53:59 i don't stop 21:54:19 omh 21:54:30 this level's at least twelve worst for sure 21:54:31 omz 21:54:32 look at this shit 21:54:34 definitely 12 21:54:40 no 21:54:43 this is like 23 worst 21:54:44 at least 21:55:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:55:23 ok i'm ready to reveal the secret 21:55:26 i already know how to do this level 21:55:34 i just wanted to give you all the experience of doing it spoiler-free 21:55:36 :o!!! 21:55:43 i warn you 21:55:47 it's pretty bullshit 21:55:53 so's the game 21:56:08 -!- sacje has joined. 21:56:11 you just hold down right 21:56:21 Phantom_Hoover: see, that's why it's 12. 21:56:28 well, i'll bump it up to 13 for being misleading. 21:56:32 take note elliott 21:58:32 oh 21:58:39 that's maybe 3 worst then 21:59:01 the timer 21:59:07 this one's like 10 worst 21:59:22 horrible 22:01:46 "wow i hate this game and i'm not even playing it" 22:01:51 it took me far too long to mute the stream 22:01:58 "this guy is more of a masochist than i am" 22:02:54 how much of a masochist are you 22:02:59 back to work 22:03:16 do the jumps 22:05:23 what have i done to deserve this 22:05:43 you made me read about functors being boxes that one time. 22:05:58 functor? i hardly know 'er! 22:06:01 * kmc will see himself out. 22:06:49 must stay calm 22:07:28 did you know that there's literally a time out on pausing 22:07:31 it doesnt' let you pause too often 22:08:01 ok 5min break 22:08:03 nice 22:08:13 congrats!! 22:10:05 elliott, but it gives you infinite restarts 22:10:07 doesn't it 22:10:10 doesn't it.......... 22:10:29 http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130617-obama-putin-meeting.photoblog900.jpg 22:11:43 Phantom_Hoover: it does 22:12:02 kmc, read that as 'obama put in meeting' 22:12:23 -!- mnoqy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:13:52 im back 22:14:02 Phantom_Hoover: yes 22:15:03 are not splaying 22:15:10 i see only black 22:15:33 some of my viewers are mutinying 22:15:59 I have used templates having lines line {{Template:{{{1}}}|num=0|name=NROM|disc=Discrete|who=Nintendo|prgrom=32768}} in some MediaWiki but does Wikipedia or Esolang wiki uses it or anything else you have done anything like this? 22:16:02 i don't see 22:16:03 anything 22:16:16 yeah there's nothing playing. 22:19:27 this is: unacceptable 22:19:40 * Bike crosses arms, nods 22:21:00 elliott: i'm disappointed 22:22:02 happy now??? 22:22:07 did you 22:22:10 make that yourself 22:22:15 yes 22:22:23 the alternative, see 22:22:24 omg good 22:22:26 very good 22:22:28 fantastic 22:22:32 zzo38: what's interesting about templates like that 22:22:33 it's so good 22:22:42 is that you found a banner with 'intemrisision' written on it 22:22:48 and i don't know which is stupider 22:23:03 i'm using $500 broadcasting software 22:23:06 it lets me do great things like this 22:23:42 kmc: Look at http://ifwiki.org/index.php/List_of_Z-machine_interpreters to see how it can be used. 22:24:28 looks pretty nice zzo38 22:25:28 Wikipedia has a lot of those sorts of tables but I don't know what kind of templates they us 22:25:31 e 22:26:01 how does Z-machine piracy check work 22:26:13 behold 22:26:30 kmc: It is unspecified. 22:26:39 zzo38: How can it be implemented, then? 22:26:57 My own interpreter just uses a command-line parameter to decide whether it is genuine or not. 22:27:02 oh god it's back help 22:27:15 (Also, no existing Z-machine games even use that anyways.) 22:27:19 zzo38: so this is like the Evil Bit in IP then 22:27:58 this level is 5,000,000 bad 22:27:59 fyi 22:28:07 (Fweep does it by if you specified -p switch then it assumes it is pirated and if you don't specify -p then it assumes it is genuine.) 22:28:10 which level `i wasn't watching' 22:28:12 i don't know the bad->worst unit conversion. 22:28:13 this level 22:28:14 are you ready 22:28:17 I'm ready. 22:28:19 this is 30 worst 22:28:20 i'm NOT joking 22:28:22 im redy 22:28:39 im not ready 22:28:48 kmc: I suppose it might be something like that. 22:28:59 wow this level is a lot easier than it was when nooodl did it 22:29:02 500 worst 22:29:02 i see your point. 22:30:51 i like how with every retry you get ever further from success 22:30:52 The only Z-machine program I know that even uses the piracy check is CZECH, which is used to test if the Z-machine interpreter is working properly. Fweep passes 100%, unless -p is specified in which case it fails that test but still continues running; it just logs the failure and then reports at the end that one test failed. 22:31:43 adjsfojortgfdvcoij m 22:32:59 i don't think you're going to get past this level this side of heat death 22:33:25 whyyy 22:33:38 intermeseinos 22:35:40 It is recommended that an interpreter assume the game disc is genuine by default, and my interpreters do this too. No games use it; nevertheless, you could write a game that uses it in order to shorten the game if the game disc is pirated; you could use this to make a short demo version using the same story file, in case some players want to play the short version, or if you are providing it on a telnet server and want to sell the full version. 22:37:30 i should move to sf in a cube like kmc instead of doing this 22:38:08 cube action 2 22:38:39 yes 22:39:06 it's like cube action 2 but 3d. 22:39:15 cube action 2 is very like cube action 2, yes 22:39:15 did you warp the intermissions picture 22:39:23 when the guy dropped it off today he said "think tetris" 22:39:25 true story 22:39:39 kmc: what's this story about 22:40:41 Bike: yes 22:41:40 it's about my cube 22:41:54 is that a euphemism 22:42:54 katla: you were so right 22:43:06 about what 22:43:11 it's been 24 minutes 22:43:16 Unbelievable 22:43:17 dot action 2 22:44:02 imo play more so it takes less time 22:44:24 this is the run 22:44:32 preparing myself, mentally and physically 22:44:59 i'm imagining a montage of elliott doing push ups 22:45:12 just let out the most ungodly noise 22:45:35 transcribe it for us (ps we really need mic commentary) 22:45:35 elliott pushup montage 22:45:49 don't make fun of me kmc 22:46:37 auguhhh 22:46:37 i like how the first attempt went really well 22:46:43 i know exactly how elliott feels now...... 22:47:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:50:41 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:50:42 hmm 22:50:58 i want to link to the turkish star wars training montage but i don't know how to make it relevnat 22:51:00 *relevant 22:51:10 turkish star wars is the best 22:51:22 i don't even remember that montage and yet I know it's the best 22:52:39 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saOSPjm8cX0 22:52:48 (there's another version but it is inferior!) 22:53:06 (it has push it to the limit in place of the original soundtrack and the quality isn't as shitty) 22:56:36 nooodl: did you ever work out time <-> seconds 22:56:54 it's a frame thing presumably? 22:57:14 hmm no 22:57:22 i estimate it's about 1/3 second = 1 time 22:57:34 or 1/4 ratehr 22:59:20 what was the trick for the last part again... 22:59:25 there's no trick :-) 22:59:33 the trick is suffering hth 22:59:34 well what are you supposed to even do, I've forgotten 23:00:05 jump from the very edge of the thing 23:00:18 right but the water... 23:01:05 i just see itnemrisision 23:01:50 yes 23:01:52 i'm preparing 23:02:24 the push-ups thing was a joke elliott! 23:02:29 btw i don't think it's even possible 23:02:32 if you pause this long 23:02:35 you have to be in the flow 23:02:51 now you're gonna unpause and it'll be like Whoa 23:02:56 and you'll mess it up 23:02:56 In BlogNomic, currently you can get points by coming up with a theorem that you can prove, but nobody else can prove. 23:03:17 So I took two huge prime numbers, multiplied them together, posted the result, and asserted that that number is composite. 23:03:30 eh 23:04:02 you don't have to publicize your proof? 23:04:17 that would defeat the point wouldn't it 23:04:18 You do, but once you do, nobody else can submit a proof. 23:04:40 Also, you have to wait 48 hours before submitting a proof. 23:04:52 something something zero-knowledge 23:05:04 Aren't there primality tests though? 23:05:09 someone could run a primality test on it and show that it's not prime 23:05:23 Fiora: true, but nobody has done that. 23:05:28 well, the idea is that modern encryption algorithms are based on multiplying huge primes isn't it? 23:05:34 or whatever. 23:05:50 and factoring the result is difficult 23:05:54 you can tell a number isn't prime without actually finding its factors i guess 23:06:14 Well, the idea is that the product of two really big prime numbers is hard to factor. 23:06:20 also I think all the efficient primality tests are probabilistic? 23:06:21 -!- carado has quit (Read error: No route to host). 23:06:24 The fact that this fact is used in encryption is just sort of a side effect. 23:06:35 hthere's a fast algorithm to check if a numberis prime 23:06:40 withouut factoring 23:06:57 elliott: I think that all of the common primality tests can tell you with certainty that a number is composite. 23:07:07 -!- carado has joined. 23:07:14 yeah AKS is assured 23:07:24 it's factoring that's hard 23:07:41 Like, if the number is prime, it's guaranteed to say "the number may be prime", but if it's composite, there's a 25% chance it says "the number may be prime" and a 75% chance it says "the number is definitely composite". 23:07:43 PRIMES is in P maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan 23:14:37 http://www.javascripter.net/math/primes/millerrabinprimalitytest.htm says it's composite~~ 23:15:39 what do those ~s even mean 23:15:47 javascript seems like... not the ideal thing to do heavy arithmetic with 23:15:49 are you saying "" in a really sarcastic tone 23:16:30 they mean like tildes 23:16:31 hth. 23:17:02 Someone told me what they mean once. 23:17:13 I think they indicate some certain thing. 23:17:31 Like, something related to something, or whatever. Like, when the one thing happens, then you use ~~ to indicate that. 23:17:57 Except that, like, it's not really a thing that happens; it's really, like, the sort of thing that *could* happen, if the people were talking face to face. 23:18:05 what 23:18:19 So, you know, like, when, uh... yeah, that. 23:19:05 are you high 23:19:20 It is very unlikely. 23:19:41 In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's extremely unlikely. Or maybe not, depending on how you define "high". 23:21:20 omg 24 time 23:21:21 luxury 23:21:33 good 23:22:40 RIP 23:22:58 remember when i did exactly that and i had it 3-4 tries later though! 23:24:42 Oh wow, the miller rabin primalitytest takes a long time if it's a probable prime 23:25:02 hmm 23:25:11 35844088534668175608533550469325416140711880836358433520741183341559409752958417564900205152763659819317338304041228758958269744936094178001500112469790418773135543301899194065881801585777676220908369 tswett: yours isn't prime but this one is, I think! 23:25:17 what happens if you try and do cryptography with something that looks prime 23:25:54 did tswett actually say the number? 23:25:56 * elliott didn't see it 23:26:02 where is tswett's number 23:26:03 elliott: I guess I didn't. 23:26:09 Here it is, with muchos espacios: 23:26:16 35 844 088 534 668 175 608 533 550 469 325 416 140 711 880 836 358 433 520 741 183 341 559 409 752 958 417 564 900 205 152 763 659 819 317 338 304 041 228 758 958 269 744 936 094 178 001 500 112 469 790 418 773 135 543 301 899 194 065 881 801 585 777 676 220 908 841 23:26:36 " FFT-based multiplication can push the running time down to O(k log2n log log n log log log n)" logs are officically the worst 23:26:36 I know what you're thinking. That's not a number, that's sixty-seven numbers! 23:26:37 nice spaces 23:27:01 that's log² n, i gues 23:27:05 i really don't understand how algorithms end up being O(log log n) 23:27:08 tswett, you could just ask them to prove that the digit sum of the factors is 23:27:15 Bike: what's k here? 23:27:33 Phantom_Hoover: or that it has a factor in a certain specific range. 23:27:48 "The number of different values of a that we test" 23:27:53 nooodl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_rabin#Algorithm_and_running_time behold. 23:28:06 Bike, what's your BYOND-related question? 23:28:24 Bring your own nondeterminism? 23:28:37 Sgeo: already rendered irrelevant 23:28:49 tswett: the deterministic version is down the page a bit. it sucks 23:28:52 no, Sgeo likes it so it's probably nostalgic in some capacity 23:29:19 I was going to ask if I needed to download anything to play space station 13 23:29:22 the answer is apparently yes. 23:29:29 The BYOND client 23:29:40 Called "Dream Seeker" 23:29:59 All resources for the game itself should be automatically downloaded by the client when you connect 23:30:03 i'm reading the blognomic post. what's this whole list nonsense 23:30:11 did you obfuscate it for "fun".... 23:30:16 An HTML5 BYOND client would be cool 23:30:29 Although would presumably need a proxy 23:32:51 how long have you been playing this elliott 23:33:34 this level: one hour with breaks hth 23:44:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:44:19 fuck this, i'm watching apocalypse now 23:44:40 good movie imo 23:45:26 are you watching the 3½ hour extended edition 23:45:32 i haven't seen that 23:46:18 I hear the making-of documentary _Hearts of Darkness_ is also very good 23:46:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:46:48 -!- Bike has joined. 23:47:04 Sgeo: is the linux byond client functional 23:49:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:49:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:50:16 kmc, i don't think i am 23:50:19 i hope i'm not 23:50:40 you should imo 23:50:46 i... am not going to finish this tonight though 23:54:37 welp, i'm torrenting it instead 23:55:03 kmc, can apocalypse now in any way be compared to elliott's dot action 2 travails 23:55:45 i cannot say 23:57:30 apocalypse now has a better soundtrack 23:57:39 it has a v. good soundtrack