←2013-06-23 2013-06-24 2013-06-25→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:01:42 <Bike> why are you depressed?
00:02:35 <katla> my life is bad
00:02:44 <katla> no friends
00:07:14 <kmc> where do you live?
00:07:23 <katla> uk
00:07:28 <kmc> what kinds of things are you interested in
00:07:31 <coppro> katla: :(
00:07:38 <coppro> katla: clinically, or just sad?
00:07:46 <katla> clinically
00:07:52 <coppro> aww, that sucks
00:08:07 <katla> dont know about interests
00:08:18 <katla> i know that i need to pick up some
00:08:25 <katla> not sure which
00:08:49 <coppro> can you think of anything you enjoy doing?
00:10:28 <kmc> you were talking about haskell and theory of computation before, right?
00:11:16 <kmc> there are a few Haskell meetup groups in the UK
00:11:28 <katla> yeah i used to be into programing languages but not really a nymore
00:11:38 <Bike> something something anhedonia
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00:22:02 <zzo38> Can you play mahjong?
00:22:07 <katla> no
00:23:51 <zzo38> Can you play chess?
00:24:21 <katla> badly
00:24:48 <pikhq_> Clinical depression is t3h suck.
00:25:59 <elliott> t3h
00:26:19 <mnoqy> oh no now you said it too...
00:26:23 <pikhq_> Yes. 73|-|.
00:26:30 <mnoqy> oh no
00:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> los soque
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00:50:43 <katla> damn i thought you guys would cure me
00:53:34 <Bike> fresh out of panacea, srry
00:54:06 <Fiora> sorry! I guess I was kind of in that trap a year or two ago (though I still kind of am) of "oh gosh I need to find non-programming hobbies and friends and communities and things"
00:54:13 <Fiora> but I'm not sure I have a magic answer
00:55:38 <katla> Fiora how did it go?
00:56:04 <katla> did you makeprogress
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00:58:41 * Fiora tries to put it into words... I kind of went and dived into non-sciencey things (since I was already a hopeless wikipedia-absorbing science doof), especially things I could socialize with others about (even like, online)
00:59:14 <Fiora> like for me I went and read homestuck and got involved with that, I played more games of the sort with fandoms I could bond with others about (Persona, Tales, etc)
00:59:56 <Fiora> and generally like trying to aim my attention at everything other than programming to counter way too many years of academia
00:59:59 <katla> sounds good
01:00:52 <Fiora> and take the chance (10 years late) to be a bit more, well, girly about things, I guess
01:01:07 <shachaf> hmm maybe i should try that
01:01:09 <kmc> i don't really have a desire for non-programming hobbies, so much as more non-programmer friends
01:01:18 <kmc> clearly these are related though
01:01:39 <kmc> my girlfriend knows a lot about plants & birds & mushrooms and that sort of thing, and I've really enjoyed learning about that
01:01:43 <kmc> and having more excuses to go outside
01:01:55 <shachaf> kmc: Does she know what birds are?
01:02:03 <kmc> I had a very narrow focus growing up and now it's neat to learn some of the things I'd been ignoring
01:02:08 <kmc> shachaf: probably
01:02:11 <shachaf> whoa
01:02:52 <shachaf> speaking of whoa, "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; America Online Browser 1.1; rev1.2; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; .NET CLR 1.1.4322)"
01:03:04 <shachaf> I think that's a referer spam bot, though.
01:03:06 <Bike> user-agent strings own.
01:03:11 <kmc> america on line
01:03:21 <Bike> also, i'm clinically depressed and doing uhhhhh better. school and stuff.
01:03:56 <Fiora> kmc: that's really how I felt to, I was like, gosh all this stuff outside programming is /so fun and interesting/.
01:04:16 <kmc> also learned a little bit about cooking, baking, etc
01:04:18 <kmc> fun stuff
01:04:22 <kmc> going to try homebrewing beer I think
01:04:27 <Fiora> and I mean it wasn't totally new t me, like, I mean, I was bombarded with astronomy/physics stuff before I learned programming even but
01:05:11 <Fiora> but that's not quite as far away from programming as fandoms or writing or cooking or...
01:06:28 <zzo38> Good if you know some things about astronomy and physics. I am also interested in physics. But I am also interested in mathematics.
01:06:53 <shachaf> We should all aspire to be more like zzo38.
01:06:59 <shachaf> (Just a bit more, though.)
01:07:55 * shachaf goes to play Potion of Confusing again.
01:08:17 <shachaf> Four bombs only!
01:08:19 <katla> zzo38 what mathematics are you interested in
01:08:21 <zzo38> This time maybe you know how to do it better?
01:08:30 <shachaf> Notice also that Jesus saves.
01:08:39 <shachaf> Does Jesus save all those who do not save themselves?
01:09:02 <Fiora> I guess it makes me kind of weird though because I'm now like, a programmer who sometimes would rather write fanfic than code...
01:09:13 <zzo38> katla: All mathematics in general, really. However, I have studied various mathematical things in Wikipedia such as category theory and logic and surreal numbers too.
01:09:26 <shachaf> Fiora: Why write fanfic and not just fic?
01:09:38 <Fiora> because I'm even worse at fic <.<
01:09:42 <zzo38> Fiora: Well, I suppose some people don't always want to write the same thing. (That includes myself.)
01:09:56 <shachaf> Fiora: imo you should write fic
01:10:23 <shachaf> maybe you can get your own fans
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01:10:42 <kmc> Fiora: well I don't think it *should* be weird for programmers to sometimes want to do things other than programming
01:11:16 <kmc> the archetypal obsessive programmer is not really a happy or healthy character
01:11:32 <zzo38> kmc: I agree. Sometimes I play Dungeons&Dragons game. Sometimes you write on the IRC. See?
01:11:35 <kmc> yeah
01:11:40 <kmc> i don't spend that much time programming really
01:11:59 <kmc> but it might be how i spend most of my 'structured' time
01:12:00 <katla> Fiora but you didnt meet any new friends
01:12:03 <katla> ?
01:12:04 <shachaf> kmc: real programmers write n their weblogs all day about what real programmers do
01:12:10 <kmc> seriously
01:12:24 <zzo38> Actually I have a C program open right now which I am also working on.
01:12:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Is it a Famicomulator?
01:12:55 <shachaf> Maybe zzo38 should move to SF and work on Rust!
01:12:55 <Fiora> katla: I met a lot of new people online I guess? I mean like almost everyone I know now, I know through non-programmer-related connections, I think
01:13:02 <shachaf> Just imagine rust.zzo38.moed.
01:13:08 <katla> oh thats cool
01:13:26 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it isn't, this one is a Z-machine interpreter with SDL. However, maybe I will try to make Famicom emulator too afterward at some time.
01:13:48 <kmc> it suits business interests for young people to think that a singleminded obsessive is what they're supposed to be :/
01:15:13 <zzo38> Well, being obsessive of it can help too.
01:16:17 <shachaf> imo you should be fix (obsessed with being)
01:17:19 <zzo38> shachaf: I think that might be difficult. But, you have to be (among other things too), to be genius.
01:19:03 <shachaf> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kWGMkslnkdg/TzCiO7moT5I/AAAAAAAAKlE/OreQvmM8SxA/s1600/calvin_hobbes_dont_knock_smock_2.gif
01:19:53 <shachaf> Fiora: you should become a fan of calvin and hobbes
01:20:03 <shachaf> and then write calvin and hobbes fan fiction (or not)
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01:20:42 <tswett> Hmm. Computability topology. A hypothetical topology on N, such that the set of all continuous functions N -> {0, 1} is equal to the set of all computable functions N -> {0, 1}, given the discrete topology on {0, 1}.
01:21:39 <tswett> Is the intersection of two computable sets a computable set? Yes. Is the union of arbitrarily many computable sets a computable set? No.
01:22:31 <shachaf> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1989/07/15
01:22:38 <Bike> Wait, why not?
01:22:39 <shachaf> http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1990/07/26
01:22:53 <Bike> or wait you mean recursive and not recursively enumerable alt. i don't remember how anything works.
01:22:55 <tswett> So that doesn't work. If we use the Sierpi(n with an acute accent)ski topology, nothing changes.
01:23:07 <tswett> Yeah, I do mean recursive, not recursively enumerable.
01:23:25 <tswett> If we're talking recursively enumerable... then yes, if we say that the open sets are precisely the recursively enumerable sets, we have a topology.
01:23:34 <tswett> Wait, do we... yes, we do.
01:23:45 <Bike> How is the union of recursive sets not recursive?
01:24:13 <tswett> Wait, no, we don't.
01:24:34 <tswett> Any set {a, b, c, ...} can be written as the union of the sets {a}, {b}, {c}, ..., each of which is recursively enumerable.
01:24:41 <tswett> Recursive, for that matter.
01:26:03 <tswett> This seems like the sort of thing that ought to make a topology somehow.
01:26:15 <tswett> Can we say the open sets are those sets which are *not* recursively enumerable?
01:26:45 <tswett> Uh... clearly not, since the empty set and N are both recursively enumerable (recursive, for that matter).
01:32:46 <copumpkin> katla: sorry! don't feel compelled to stay, but I remember you used to be around quite a bit and everyone was wondering where you'd gone!
01:33:08 <copumpkin> #epigram still has your topic :P
01:33:19 <katla> yeah
01:33:42 <zzo38> You are also not compelled to type something all the time even if you do stay.
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01:34:11 <zzo38> However, even if you don't, you can still read the message on the logs, so that's OK anyways.
01:35:05 <elliott> #epigram must have so many cobwebs
01:35:32 <shachaf> didn't pigworker say that epigram is dead
01:35:47 <Gracenotes> long live epigram
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02:32:24 <shachaf> Should I read that HoTT book everyone's talking about?
02:32:53 <copumpkin> yeah
02:33:10 <copumpkin> damn, katla left
02:35:01 <elliott> eh, quit earlier too
02:35:08 <kmc> they've been in and out
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02:59:53 <elliott> good night kmc
03:00:07 <shachaf> @night elliott
03:00:07 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:00:09 <shachaf> oopse
03:00:13 <shachaf> ♞ elliott
03:00:52 <kmc> night elliott
03:01:12 <shachaf> nelliott
03:01:31 <ion> good nelliott
03:01:32 <shachaf> nellie lovett
03:01:42 <shachaf> elliott's secret identity?!
03:02:12 <ion> elliott's secret Identity?!
03:02:57 <ion> elliott's secret runIdentity?!
03:14:05 <shachaf> kmc: it's monad joke o'clock in #haskell are you sure you don't want to join
03:14:35 <ion> I suppose, shachaf. I sachaf.
03:15:20 <Bike> y'all are really bad at convincing people to join #haskell
03:15:52 <kmc> ;_;
03:15:57 <shachaf> Bike: well it's an insider's club
03:16:09 <shachaf> we never wanted y'all to join anyway
03:16:11 <shachaf> too good for you
03:16:37 <ion> You wouldn’t be able to afford the monthly fee anyway.
03:17:37 <shachaf> Bike: you should come to #haskell btw
03:17:41 <shachaf> it's the best
03:18:20 <shachaf> i just made the monad jokes stop with my iron fist
03:18:26 <shachaf> @yarr
03:18:26 <lambdabot> Is that a hornpipe in yer pocket, or arr ya just happy ta see me?
03:18:42 <ion> bike: You already have missed many monad jokes, you should join soon.
03:19:11 <Gracenotes> Is that a monad in yer monad, or arr ya just ap-y ta see me?
03:19:33 <Gracenotes> you're welcome
03:20:20 <shachaf> @arr
03:20:20 <lambdabot> Swab the deck!
03:20:30 <ion> @array
03:20:30 <lambdabot> Ahoy mateys
03:21:17 <ion> GHC should also just pick the closest match silently instead of erroring out and telling you about them.
03:21:27 <ion> A.k.a. DWIM
03:22:15 <kmc> DWIM is great because it's really do what you think i think you will think i think you will mean
03:22:23 <kmc> much better than just saying what you want
03:24:08 <ion> Also, in case of a type error, GHC should substitute values (including functions) with others in scope that make the type error go away.
03:24:54 <Bike> why limit it to scope!?
03:25:19 <ion> True, it might as well import modules when it seems to help. And install packages, too.
03:25:36 <Bike> it's just more convenient
03:26:19 <shachaf> ion: Simpler to use unsafeCoerce.
03:26:24 <kmc> never ever give the programmer an error message
03:26:26 <kmc> they hate those
03:27:43 <kmc> if you must give an error message it should be inserted at an arbitrary location in the HTML you're serving to users
03:28:01 <ion> Upon finding the substitutions that fix the program, GHC should also modify the source file automatically.
03:30:39 <Gracenotes> or delete it
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04:48:32 <kmc> i wonder if hagfish can be caught in finland
04:48:43 <kmc> they exist in sweden apparently
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06:22:47 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://www.concatenation.org/futures/whatsexpected.pdf by chiang
06:23:19 <shachaf> (v. short, one page)
06:24:41 <kmc> not yet but I just realized he wrote http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v405/n6786/full/405517a0.html too
06:24:44 <kmc> which is good and i did read it
06:26:17 <shachaf> Oh, I think that was in the book.
06:27:33 <Bike> is this transhumanist
06:27:33 * kmc has read it now
06:27:34 <kmc> v. good
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09:05:33 <AnotherTest> Hello
09:20:17 <zzo38> Last week I found a book in the library titled "Can smart people believe in God?" I agree with much of what they wrote but I think they have too much Christian bias in some of their arguments.
09:20:56 <zzo38> (The author is Christian, and I don't blame that, but I think the argument is too much Christian bias anyways.)
09:21:56 <zzo38> They compared being scientific but not spiritual, or being spiritual but not scientific, as being like watching the universe with only one eye open.
09:22:22 <zzo38> I suppose I can see the analogy there.
09:22:33 <zzo38> I do disagree with some things he writes, though.
09:26:21 <zzo38> They say even atheists believe in things, depending on the atheists, such as Randomness, etc. Randomness? Isn't that like believing in your left hand but not the rest of your body and your surroundings? It is an analogy I made up, because, it is only a part of it!
09:28:14 <zzo38> What do *you* think of this?????
09:29:06 <shachaf> zzo38: I agree with you.
09:30:02 <zzo38> shachaf: Entirely with what I wrote, or..... something else?
09:31:21 <shachaf> Yes.
09:32:06 <zzo38> Do you have any other comments about this?
09:32:29 <shachaf> Only this one.
09:33:25 <zzo38> O, OK. But, I don't think you should agree/disagree without questioning it at first. If you do that at first, then OK.
09:33:59 <shachaf> I considered questioning it, but you had used so many question marks that I wasn't sure whether I'd have any left.
09:34:39 <zzo38> Yes you can have whatever you want left.
09:35:35 <shachaf> Do I have any rights left?
09:35:48 <zzo38> Yes, I think so.
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10:06:33 <GOMADWarrior> I can't into rivers
10:07:28 <GOMADWarrior> oops
10:09:44 <Phantom_Hoover> did you into river
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10:14:45 <olsner> oh no, into river!
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10:31:17 <shachaf> kmc: i read the rust tutorial. it looks p. good
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11:08:02 <Taneb> Aaaah hi
11:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> why did you say aaaah
11:12:17 <Taneb> Because I just finished exams
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12:28:21 <oerjan> oops
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12:37:11 <oerjan> AAAA carpenters
12:37:19 <oerjan> (i let them in, too)
12:38:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> kmc: Does she know what birds are? <-- birds are dinosaurs hth
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12:42:10 <oerjan> 01:09:56: <shachaf> Fiora: imo you should write fic
12:42:10 <oerjan> 01:10:23: <shachaf> maybe you can get your own fans
12:42:22 <oerjan> are there any fanfics that have their own fanfics
12:54:32 <oerjan> Taneb: FREEDOM?
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14:02:38 <oerjan> let's see if his connection has fixed itself.
14:03:12 <elliott> oerjan: that wasn't a connection issue really, they /parted not /quit
14:03:17 <elliott> well maybe they have a really weird bouncer or something
14:03:27 <elliott> probably they've gotten bored now though
14:03:28 <oerjan> well ok
14:04:29 <oerjan> > 2794285/86400
14:04:31 <lambdabot> 32.341261574074075
14:10:48 <oerjan> i wish freenode didn't keep resetting the ban dates
14:11:13 <kmc> hi
14:12:59 <oerjan> it's sort of nice to be able to see which bans are old...
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14:23:18 <elliott> hi kmc :)
14:24:50 <kmc> i am up early to receive a shipment
14:27:08 <elliott> @time kmc
14:27:09 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Mon Jun 24 10:27:08 2013
14:27:16 <elliott> that is early
14:27:26 <elliott> though later than what I expect when most people say "early"
14:27:42 <elliott> since apparently people are superhumans who think getting up at 9 am is reasonable or whatever
14:29:23 <kmc> yeah what's with that
14:30:01 <kmc> people are superhumans who think being /at work/ at 9 am is reasonable
14:30:39 <kmc> when i was in high school i had to be at school by 8 or whatever but I could also exist on zero sleep back then
14:30:52 <kmc> if you too have this power elliott: enjoy it while it lasts
14:31:16 <elliott> kmc: uh it depends what you mean by "exist"
14:31:37 <elliott> like I frequently have not slept in 24 hours but I wouldn't say I function particularly well under those circumstances
14:32:33 <elliott> does mozilla involve being at work at 9 am "the worst possible thing"
14:32:39 <kmc> i don't think it does
14:33:05 <kmc> i don't mean absolute number of hours without any sleep at all
14:33:16 <kmc> more like can you function on 4 hours of sleep a night indefinitely
14:34:49 <elliott> how can you take on a job without first figuring out whether you need to be up at an ungodly hour. adults
14:34:56 <elliott> anyway uh I haven't really tried
14:34:59 <elliott> well I have a few times
14:35:10 <elliott> I guess I can theoretically do it but would want to die pretty quickly
14:35:46 <mnoqy> being woken up by an alarm is the worst experience
14:36:02 <mnoqy> Would Not Recommend
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15:11:07 <olsner> it's usually expected that your working hours have at least some overlap with other people's working hours
15:11:21 <olsner> e.g. so you can talk at each other and pretend to collaborate
15:23:51 <oerjan> i recall my dad's workplace had something like "core hours" when you had to be there, but then a part outside that which you could choose more freely.
15:24:28 <kmc> yeah, that's common
15:24:54 <kmc> Mozilla has lots of people working remotely and from different time zones
15:25:20 <kmc> their attitude about offices is like... if there's an office near you and you want space there, you can have it
15:25:26 <kmc> but they do have really nice offices
15:25:43 <elliott> kmc: it takes a special kind of person to work from a different time zone without actually being in a different place
15:25:55 <kmc> haha
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15:26:47 <katla> hi
15:28:07 <kmc> hi katla
15:28:09 <oerjan> hi katla
15:28:33 <katla> whats up
15:28:34 <oklopol> Bike: so i thought about the ai thing, and i seem to recall that once upon a time i used to call the stupid kind of ai stuff combinatorial optimization. perhaps seeing the arxiv feed every day has not been good for my brain.
15:28:45 <oerjan> the sun is up
15:30:01 <katla> 5talk
15:30:09 <oklopol> btw google scholar updates are pretty magical, like 30% of its suggestions are interesting
15:30:16 <kmc> katla: i'm up early (by my standards), waiting for someone to deliver a huge box
15:30:22 <kmc> i will then load my possessions into that box
15:30:27 <kmc> and they will ship it to california
15:30:31 <katla> cool
15:30:40 <oklopol> i mean interesting enough that i feel like i should read them
15:31:28 <oklopol> ooh i want a huge box too
15:32:18 <kmc> packing and moving is a pain
15:32:25 <kmc> but it's not too bad this time
15:32:26 <oklopol> oh that's what you're doing
15:32:34 <oklopol> i do not envy you anymore
15:32:50 <oklopol> last time i moved it was like 50 meters, and it still took almost a day
15:33:00 <kmc> heh
15:33:10 <kmc> in college we used shopping carts for that purpose
15:33:30 <kmc> stolen from the local grocery
15:33:37 <kmc> if you're really lazy you just park your shopping cart full of clothes and stuff in your new room and don't bother unpacking it
15:33:44 <oklopol> i didn't even have to go outside to move stuff from the old apartment to this one
15:33:51 <kmc> it just becomes a piece of furniture like a dresser
15:34:12 <kmc> in the weeks leading up to moving day, people would hoard shopping carts and stash them in secret locations
15:34:19 <oklopol> :D
15:34:42 <oklopol> i've always wanted a shopping cart but stores refuse to sell theirs and stealing is wrong or something
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15:35:00 <kmc> yeah
15:35:11 <kmc> I only stole carts from the people who'd already stolen them
15:35:14 <kmc> that makes me a good guy right
15:35:16 <oklopol> yes
15:35:24 <oklopol> unless they stole it from someone who stole it from a store
15:35:31 <oklopol> in which case you are an asshole
15:35:34 <kmc> oh no
15:35:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm going to have to move all my shit back from warwick in a couple of days
15:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> i am not looking forward to that
15:35:55 <kmc> to where?
15:37:17 <Phantom_Hoover> back to edinburgh
15:37:47 <oklopol> so today, me and my coauthor started our first article on cellular automata where our supervisor is also coauthoring
15:38:15 <oklopol> (i have something about picture languages with him, but we never did anything together before for some reason)
15:38:58 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: are you quitting university
15:39:08 <Phantom_Hoover> no, i'm just moving out of halls
15:39:20 <oklopol> oh err what does that mean
15:39:31 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortiecat.
15:39:42 <oerjan> heh they're still going strong http://michaelnielsen.org/polymath1/index.php?title=Bounded_gaps_between_primes
15:39:55 <oerjan> almost at 10000 now
15:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, halls of residence are the on-campus accomodation you stay in for the first year
15:40:46 -!- nortiecat has changed nick to nortti.
15:41:40 <elliott> oerjan: eventually it will turn out that the lowest you can go is 3, hth
15:41:51 <oerjan> O KAY
15:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, was that deliberate
15:42:18 <oerjan> (that's actually impossible)
15:42:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i thought of the quip before i realised the problem. then i realised the problem quickly. then i decided it made the joke better
15:42:42 <elliott> then i said it.
15:43:58 <oklopol> pardon my stupidity, but why is that not possible?
15:44:13 <oklopol> oh.
15:44:17 <elliott> :D
15:44:28 <oerjan> oklopol: because there are only two primes that are 3 apart hth
15:44:45 <Phantom_Hoover> which is the second...
15:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
15:44:51 * Phantom_Hoover idiot
15:45:09 <oerjan> happens to the best of us
15:45:11 <elliott> maybe the twin prime conjecture is independent and the lowest you can go in ZFC is 8294
15:45:33 <katla> it's incredible they have a finite bound
15:45:56 <katla> how would you even prove that
15:46:21 <oerjan> well the project started after someone found out how
15:48:06 <FreeFull> oerjan: 12,006 is very good
15:53:39 <Gracenotes> the most recently published gap proof seems fun, it required a sufficiently large N, got an upper bound on that N, and manually checked every thing below it
15:54:06 <Gracenotes> hurrah for computer-assisted proofs
15:54:20 * oerjan looks at edinburgh in google maps, it seem to have a huge number of golf courses
15:54:45 <oerjan> *seems
15:54:54 <Gracenotes> oerjan: okay, wow, that's incredible
15:55:31 <Gracenotes> I just assumed there was a proof or two discovered; there's actually over a dozen improvements a day on some days
15:55:43 <kmc> i keep thinking my solution to moving should be to not have stuff
15:55:50 <kmc> but no matter how much stuff i get rid of I still have quite a lot
15:56:01 <kmc> though I think still a lot less than people my age are expected to
15:56:17 -!- nortti has changed nick to __builtin_nortti.
15:56:19 <Gracenotes> kmc: you have more stuff than you think, especially when you put it in boxes
15:56:25 <kmc> yep
15:56:30 <elliott> Gracenotes: i think to improve on it now all they need to do is find a fairly small set of numbers which satisfies some decidable property or something?
15:56:39 <elliott> or at least i remember reading something like that
15:56:44 <elliott> so it's not surprising there's rapid iteration if so
15:57:12 <katla> do you understand the proof
15:57:15 <katla> of the original bound
15:57:46 -!- __builtin_nortti has changed nick to nortti.
15:57:46 * Gracenotes does not understand the math, or the theorem that makes the bound possible
15:57:50 <katla> anyone
15:58:03 <oerjan> i haven't tried
15:58:23 <oerjan> beyond what elliott said
15:58:43 <oklopol> number theory is too hard for me
15:59:35 <Gracenotes> I mean, we're computer scientists, the most we do with theoretically with numbers is represent them using unary
15:59:41 <Gracenotes> right.... right
15:59:56 <Gracenotes> (for those of us that are computer scientists)
16:00:54 <Phantom_Hoover> oko and oerjan are both mathematicians...
16:01:54 <oklopol> dunno, nowadays i think of myself more as a mathematician wannabe, my papers have no integrals
16:02:05 <oklopol> not many at least
16:03:23 <oklopol> so btw cool perhaps-result from today: a size 2 neighborhood surjective CA on a prime alphabet is permutive in one of the coordinates
16:03:57 <kmc> what's a prime alphabet?
16:04:01 <oklopol> (it's cool because no good characterization of surjectivity is known)
16:04:05 <oklopol> alphabet of prime size
16:04:58 <Gracenotes> acronym?
16:05:13 <oklopol> CA = cellular automata if that's what you mean
16:05:35 <Gracenotes> ah, I see, and size 2?
16:05:48 <oklopol> its neighborhood has size 2
16:06:00 <oklopol> the next state is based on looking at some 2 cells, relative to the current cell
16:07:03 <elliott> oerjan: speaking of mathematicians, do you know much about permutations...
16:07:06 <Gracenotes> mm, I see :o
16:07:31 <oklopol> all cellular automata arise in this way, for some value of being the same as
16:07:34 <oerjan> elliott: well a bit...
16:10:38 <elliott> oerjan: well the cardinality of the set of permutations of A is |A|^|A| = 2^|A| when A is infinite and so I'm wondering about the details of the bijection between bijections between A and A and functions from A to A this should give you...
16:11:45 <oklopol> oh i thought this would be about the symmetric groups
16:12:00 <oerjan> DISAPPOINTED
16:12:36 <katla> dont you have to use axiom of choice to go from |X| = |Y| to a bijection X -> Y?
16:12:41 <elliott> oklopol: you can pretend I said the cardinality of the symmetric group of A if that would help
16:12:55 <oerjan> katla: no, that's the definition of |X| = |Y§
16:13:01 <oklopol> surely it's easy to inject either in the other, and then just construct the solution with the axiom of constructable choice.
16:13:08 <oerjan> *|Y|
16:13:09 <katla> no, it doesn't use choice it uses excluded middle
16:13:21 <elliott> I'm also wondering if the bijection is a natural isomorphism or whatever or if it depends on the details of A...
16:13:40 <oerjan> although _defining_ |X| may be awkward without choice
16:14:03 <katla> point is you dont have an explicit bijection you just know one exists
16:14:36 <oerjan> anyway, if you have injections, then i believe the proof of the schröder-bernstein theorem is quite constructive.
16:14:53 <oerjan> katla: i suppose
16:14:54 <katla> there is some way to label permutations of A by subsets of A but it's probably completely arbitrary
16:14:55 <oklopol> yeah, but then my awesome joke doesn't work
16:15:01 <elliott> katla: yeah... I'm interested in seeing what such a bijection looks like "in practice"
16:15:05 <elliott> like if A is just the naturals or whatever
16:15:26 <katla> i imagine it as acompletely random (since we dont know anythinnf about it)
16:15:27 <oklopol> katla: that may be, but i wouldn't say it's a priori clear
16:16:02 <oerjan> elliott: i suspect the bijection is hideously unnatural
16:16:13 <elliott> yeah I realise it might not even be a computable bijection...
16:16:25 <oerjan> oh i expect it's computable
16:16:53 <elliott> oerjan: maybe the other form, a bijection between bijections between A and A and functions from A to 2, is cleaner?? I don't really know what I'm doing...
16:17:05 <katla> i dont think its computable, how could it be?
16:17:15 <katla> you would need a constructive proof of its existence
16:17:26 <oerjan> hm well maybe it depends
16:18:04 <oerjan> oh maybe you need choice to prove the cardinalities are the same.
16:18:06 <elliott> katla: well maybe for a specific A?
16:18:26 <elliott> like even just seeing an (N <-> N) <-> (N -> N) would be interesting to me
16:18:30 <katla> it doesn't matter what A is as long as |A| = |N|
16:18:39 <elliott> yeah
16:19:08 <oerjan> elliott: N -> N should be easy. an injection from N <-> N to N -> N is trivial, of course.
16:19:14 <oklopol> computable in what sense? like, for numerable A, you can compute the image of a \in A from knowing a long enough prefix of the characteristic sequence of the subset or something?
16:19:38 <elliott> oerjan: just the identity you mean?
16:19:42 <oerjan> yeah
16:20:04 <oerjan> an injection the other way shouldn't be too hard.
16:20:26 <oerjan> and when you have those, the schröder-bernstein construction is constructive, as i said.
16:20:32 <elliott> oklopol: well I mean in the sense of you can construct a Coq expression of type (bijection (bijection nat nat) (nat -> nat))
16:20:34 <oklopol> from N -> N to N <-> N is very easy too, just permute adjacent pairs and encode the images of every number
16:20:57 <elliott> sounds reasonable
16:20:58 <oklopol> like permu, permu, permu, no permu in the beginning would code that 1 goes to 3
16:21:08 <oerjan> or well, maybe not constructive, but explicitly definable
16:21:37 <elliott> hmm, is the reduced form actually (N -> 2) when you're doing it constructively or is it (N -> Prop)...? I know "powersets" are usually defined as the latter
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16:24:02 <oerjan> of course i don't really have a clue about real constructiveness hth
16:24:22 <elliott> I need a faker mathematician :(
16:24:38 <elliott> maybe oklopol, I bet people call him a computer scientist all the time
16:24:45 <oerjan> XD
16:25:27 <oerjan> i suspect schröder-bernstein might use the excluded middle at least
16:25:38 <Taneb> I pretend to be a mathematician sometimes
16:25:39 <oklopol> they do :(
16:25:42 <Taneb> Can I be of service?
16:25:45 <mnoqy> elliott: my feeling is it's (N->Prop) ... (N->2) is "decidable subsets" or something like that
16:26:26 <elliott> mnoqy: right but (N -> Prop) -> (N <-> N) sounds really unlikely to be non-trivial without excluded middle... (N -> 2) -> (N <-> N) much less so
16:26:32 <oklopol> the other day this dude who does all the practical computer stuff was like "so oklopol i bet you run virtual oses all the time" and i was like omg that sounds scary and just kinda disappeared
16:26:44 <elliott> so my hunch tells me that either the reduction to 2^|A| doesn't work constructively or it's actually 2
16:27:10 <elliott> oerjan: yeah An important feature of this theorem is that it does not rely on the axiom of choice. However, its various proofs are non-constructive, as they depend on the law of excluded middle, and therefore rejected by intuitionists.[1]
16:27:21 <oerjan> ok
16:28:18 <oklopol> o-oh
16:30:57 <oerjan> elliott: yeah for the proof given, presumably you need LEM to determine whether it's A/B-stopper or doubly infinite
16:31:02 <oklopol> the same guy (at work btw, seems i forgot that detail) always catcher me in the hallway and starts talking about his latest problems with installing stuff and i don't understand anything and just nod politely
16:31:12 <oerjan> oh, or cyclic.
16:31:48 <oklopol> is this the fun vertex matching proof
16:32:18 <oerjan> well there's a graph there, so probably
16:32:37 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schröder-Bernstein_theorem#Visualization
16:32:41 <elliott> hm maybe you can do (N -> 2) <-> (N <-> N) by taking the 2 to mean "displaced" or something...
16:32:48 <oklopol> that seems to be the only one that's possible to remember
16:32:51 * elliott starting the day with quackery
16:33:09 <oklopol> yeah that thingie
16:36:48 <oklopol> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myhill_isomorphism_theorem
16:37:01 <oklopol> was this mentioned already
16:38:18 <oerjan> nope
16:38:35 <oklopol> sounds related
16:38:41 <oerjan> yeah
16:38:48 <oerjan> anyway
16:38:51 <oklopol> bye
16:38:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: CU).
16:39:45 <elliott> how did oklopol know oerjan was going to leave
16:39:58 <oklopol> by the magic of reading
16:40:26 <Bike> reading... or conspiracy
16:40:34 <mnoqy> yeah
16:40:38 <oklopol> :O
16:40:43 <oklopol> shiiiit
16:41:06 <oklopol> you totally caught me
16:41:28 <elliott> i love the blinking text
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16:50:31 <kmc> how do you do it in irsi
16:50:40 <kmc> irssissippi
16:50:48 <Bike> ^F
16:51:06 <kmc> hallo
16:51:36 <nooodl> im thankfully not seeing it
16:51:41 <FreeFull> Moo?
16:51:51 <FreeFull> I am not either
16:52:04 <FreeFull> Probably using the wrong terminal or something
16:52:05 <Gregor> Is this suppose to show up as something other than a unsupported-Unicode-character box?
16:52:13 <Gregor> @messages
16:54:46 <elliott> Gregor: it blinks in irssi
16:55:02 <kmc> welp
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17:00:54 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:00:58 <kmc> well this is annoying
17:01:03 <kmc> i've successfully annoyed myself
17:01:06 <kmc> thanks a lot Bike
17:03:05 <Bike> np
17:04:56 <kmc> my moving pod is here
17:05:02 <elliott> time to climb in
17:05:07 <elliott> and wait
17:05:17 <kmc> could probably rent it for $800/mo in sf
17:05:29 <kmc> elliott: i have a friend who would do that
17:05:38 <elliott> bet people do it all the time
17:05:40 <kmc> he would hide in your clothes hamper for 3 hours just so he could jump out and scare the shit out of you
17:06:14 <kmc> it's sort of like being a sniper
17:06:26 <elliott> I think every time someone scares me like that I lose a few years of life
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17:14:30 <Gregor> Every time someone scares me like that, the flashbacks kick in and I kill them.
17:14:44 <Gregor> So, THEY use a few years of THEIR life.
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17:18:08 <Taneb> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/breaking-news-dead-man-found-in-hexham-burn-1.1065270?referrerPath=home
17:19:05 <Taneb> Things happen in Hexham, apparently
17:22:18 <Bike> @wn courant
17:22:20 <lambdabot> No match for "courant".
17:22:33 <Bike> is this like some crazy british spelling of "current"
17:23:22 <elliott> the hexham currant
17:23:47 <mnoqy> dead in a burn?
17:24:35 <Taneb> mnoqy, burn also can mean stream sometimes
17:24:52 <mnoqy> you crazy brits
17:27:47 <Gregor> Yeah, it took me a while to realize that "burn" was not the verb.
17:28:04 <Gregor> I was thinking, "they found a burnt husk of a corpse?"
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17:57:48 <kmc> hexham voultage
18:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought burn was scots
18:01:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess hexham is basically in scotland
18:01:41 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Northumbrian dialect bears much similarity to Scots in places
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18:37:27 <Taneb> Oh no I am still reliant on a website that will be discontinued in less than a week
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18:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, google reader (i thought that was already down)
18:49:49 <Taneb> Yeah
18:49:53 <Taneb> It goes down on the 1st of July
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19:13:19 <elliott> so apparently Scala doesn't have parametricity. I blame copumpkin for making me discover this.
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19:14:54 <kmc> is that because the supertype shared by all objects contains enough rope to break it?
19:15:20 <elliott> it seems to just literally give you typecase
19:15:21 <elliott> def const3[A](a: A, a2: A): A = (a, a2) match {
19:15:21 <elliott> case (s: Int, s2: Int) => if (s < s2) a else a2
19:15:21 <elliott> case _ => a
19:15:21 <elliott> }
19:15:25 <elliott> http://failex.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/fake-theorems-for-free.html
19:15:38 <elliott> very nasty
19:15:53 <Taneb> Hmm
19:15:55 <elliott> I guess they figure, Java lets you do it, so there's no point hiding it because Java APIs will already break parametricity
19:16:09 <Taneb> Could subtyping work in a Haskell-like language?
19:16:38 <elliott> yes but it's ugly (Scala has subtyping)
19:17:14 <Taneb> Like, data Foo = Foo {a :: Int, b :: Char}; data Bar extends Foo with {c :: Bool}
19:17:20 <Taneb> Would that work?
19:17:36 <elliott> yes but it's ugly
19:18:28 <shachaf> elliott is prejudiced against subtyping
19:18:45 <Bike> a subtypist
19:19:09 <Taneb> You would be able to use Bar with functions that are (Foo -> a) but not (a -> Foo)
19:21:02 <Taneb> In away, all types are subtypes of ()
19:21:17 <Taneb> I am going to call that the "trivial supertype"
19:22:04 <Bike> not Void, huh
19:22:22 <Taneb> Bike, I think Void is sort of a subtype of every type
19:22:34 <Taneb> I shall call that the "trivial subtype"
19:22:46 <zzo38> The type () is what is called a final object; does that have anything to do with it?
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19:22:47 <Bike> wow this is so exciting huh elliott
19:23:00 <Taneb> zzo38, I think so!
19:23:03 <elliott> hello Bike
19:23:14 <Bike> helliott.
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19:24:47 <Taneb> This subtyping thing becomes ugly when combined with polymorphic types
19:24:55 <Taneb> :(
19:26:53 <zzo38> Do you need two extending, one for addition and one for multiplication?
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19:27:36 <Taneb> zzo38, I haven't thought about addition
19:28:02 <shachaf> Taneb: have you considered lens-subtyping vs. prism-subtyping hth
19:28:31 <zzo38> With multiplication you get Bar->Foo and if you define Bar with addition then you will have Foo->Bar instead, I think, isn't it?
19:28:42 <Taneb> zzo38, I think with sum types the subtyping would sort of be the other way rou --- yeah
19:30:01 <shachaf> No, the subtyping is still in the same direction.
19:30:10 <shachaf> It's just that the function that you have is different.
19:30:17 <shachaf> Or maybe you mean the same thing I mean.
19:30:19 <zzo38> shachaf: That is what I meant.
19:30:41 <zzo38> I meant Bar->Foo and Foo->Bar are the types of the functions that it would make.
19:30:42 <Taneb> shachaf, with product types the larger definition is the subtype, with sum types the smaller one is
19:31:36 <Taneb> This gets messy when you have more complicated types
19:31:41 <Taneb> I shall now stop thinking about it
19:31:43 <shachaf> It's not about cardinality, exactly.
19:31:47 <shachaf> hey no don't do that
19:31:48 <shachaf> help
19:32:41 <Bike> taneb is my hero
19:33:37 <mnoqy> whats this about subtyping
19:33:55 <zzo38> I did write a Haskell program that will allow various modules that know a module defining a record type to each add fields without knowing each other, and the first module doesn't have to know about them either.
19:34:57 <zzo38> However, you need to define a way to make default values of each fields, so that a value of such a type can be constructed. It is possible for the default value to depend on something, and whatever defines the record type also defines what type is needed to make up the default values.
19:36:27 <zzo38> It could be used as another way to make global variables, instead of using unsafePerformIO and NOINLINE.
19:36:28 <elliott> zzo38: hey you know that haskell program that gave different output depending on which language extensions were enabled?
19:36:31 <elliott> do you still have that?
19:37:07 <zzo38> elliott: Yes I do have that.
19:37:19 <elliott> is it available over HTTP?
19:37:36 <zzo38> Yes. http://sprunge.us/edTV
19:37:53 <Bike> well.
19:37:59 <elliott> thanks! may I share it with someone I know? do you want attribution?
19:38:36 <zzo38> You can share it if you want, modify it if you want, give attribution if you want (it isn't required), etc
19:39:20 <elliott> thank you
19:39:28 <katla> nicecode zzo38
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19:59:06 <kmc> it's too god damn motherfucking hot
20:05:11 <shachaf> @google boston weather
20:05:12 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
20:05:15 <shachaf> help
20:06:06 <Taneb> ~metar EGNT
20:06:18 <Taneb> METASEPIA
20:08:24 <kmc> it's going to hit 97°F / 36°C today
20:08:32 <Taneb> :O
20:09:38 <elliott> @temperature kmc
20:09:38 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
20:09:42 <elliott> oh you said
20:09:43 <shachaf> imo move to sf
20:09:46 <elliott> that is very hot
20:09:55 <shachaf> "it's the only way"
20:10:32 <Taneb> shachaf, remind me
20:10:43 <Taneb> How many people in this channel other than you live in San Francisco
20:10:52 <shachaf> I don't live in San Francisco.
20:11:03 <Taneb> That is not what I asked
20:11:21 <Taneb> It's what I /implied/, yes, but not what I asked
20:11:29 <shachaf> Taneb: You should change your person-addressing character to use a colon instead of a comma.
20:11:43 <Taneb> shachaf, I did for a while, but it felt wrong
20:11:44 <kmc> how come
20:12:00 <shachaf> , is the devil.
20:12:12 <shachaf> It feels like part of a sentence instead of part of a protocol.
20:13:27 <kmc> why should it be a protocol
20:13:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:13:56 <shachaf> that's what it is
20:14:09 <shachaf> Certainly I don't want people saying my name in every sentence.
20:14:20 <Taneb> No, when I say, eg, "shachaf, hi!", in my head I am saying your name
20:14:43 <oerjan> but are you pronouncing the ch correctly
20:14:44 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the nominative!
20:14:46 <shachaf> OK, then it's just rude.
20:15:09 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what would the vocative be?
20:15:15 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck
20:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> did i mean the vocative
20:15:30 <Taneb> fuck, how are you?
20:15:36 <oerjan> romanos eunt domus
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20:24:28 -!- Koen_ has joined.
20:37:23 <oerjan> 19:59:06: <kmc> it's too god damn motherfucking hot
20:37:23 <oerjan> 20:05:11: <shachaf> @google boston weather
20:37:36 <oerjan> yeah, that's how it was the one time i was in boston too
20:37:50 <kmc> what time of year
20:37:50 <Bike> yep.
20:38:24 <oerjan> kmc: around 4th of july
20:38:29 <kmc> ok
20:38:34 <oerjan> (we watched the fireworks)
20:39:10 <Taneb> Last time I watched fireworks it was my birthday
20:39:47 <oerjan> `pastelogs taneb.*birthday
20:39:53 * oerjan whistles innocently
20:40:00 <Taneb> oerjan, 3rd of November
20:40:16 <oerjan> oh. why are there fireworks then
20:40:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.19940
20:40:33 <Taneb> Closest Saturday to Guy Fawkes?
20:40:38 <oerjan> ah
20:40:38 <kmc> 2 days early
20:40:42 <kmc> efb
20:41:20 <Taneb> ...
20:41:23 <Taneb> `? efb
20:41:24 <HackEgo> efb? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:41:25 <myndzi> |
20:41:25 <myndzi> o/`¯º
20:41:30 <Taneb> hahaha
20:41:41 <shachaf> endorphins for barter
20:41:51 <shachaf> it's a drugz thing
20:41:51 <oerjan> `? myndzi
20:41:53 <HackEgo> myndzi? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:41:53 <myndzi> |
20:41:53 <myndzi> o/`¯º
20:41:55 <Taneb> electric flying bananas?
20:42:09 <oerjan> `learn myndzi keeps us all on our feet
20:42:13 <HackEgo> I knew that.
20:44:36 <Bike> "edit: fuck, beaten"
20:45:47 <Fiora> is that a sommethingawful thing?
20:47:07 <kmc> it's an internet thing
20:47:18 <kmc> maybe originating from SA (like so many internet things)
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20:56:13 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:58:10 -!- mnoqy has joined.
21:05:33 <elliott> if anyone is interested i am streaming the masterpiece of game design "dot action 2" http://www.twitch.tv/neostairs
21:05:52 <Bike> stairs 2: revenge of escalator
21:07:24 <Bike> wow what the heck is this
21:08:31 <mnoqy> dot action 2
21:08:44 <Bike> elliott you have to jump all the way to the top come on man.
21:08:48 <elliott> i know
21:08:49 <elliott> i'm sorry
21:08:51 <elliott> i'm so sorry
21:09:07 <Bike> u fucked up
21:09:25 <Bike> what's with all the japanese
21:09:25 <katla> this looks so horribly unfun
21:09:25 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:09:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
21:09:52 <Bike> is it encoded in ascii somehow? i'm wondering if zzo made this
21:10:42 <Bike> what the hell do all these numbers mean................
21:10:54 <mnoqy> ZET lets you walk through lava
21:10:59 <Bike> oh
21:11:01 <Bike> ok
21:11:01 <elliott> katla: it's the greatest game ever made actually
21:11:34 <Bike> wow that was a "pretty intense jump" good job
21:11:52 <mnoqy> that jump? not so intense
21:12:11 <Bike> yeah you need to rev up the intensity there, imo.
21:13:36 <Bike> good death animation
21:14:01 <katla> whats great about it
21:14:47 <Bike> the circus music
21:14:48 <elliott> it's beautiful
21:14:56 <mnoqy> possibly it's a Dogma thing
21:15:00 <elliott> also in like 40 levels it stops bothering to make sense
21:15:08 <mnoqy> cant wait 2 see
21:15:15 <mnoqy> i forget how far i got in that game
21:15:29 <Bike> is this like. why are you doing this
21:15:42 <mnoqy> yes
21:15:58 <Bike> oh
21:16:07 <katla> you're just addicted to the beep sound
21:16:54 <mnoqy> oh i think i remember this level
21:17:07 <Bike> what time units are being used exactly
21:17:13 <mnoqy> TIME
21:17:34 <Bike> right
21:17:37 <elliott> katla: it's true
21:19:18 <katla> how can you bare playing this
21:19:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:19:57 <mnoqy> i think it's a ritualistic thing
21:20:09 <Bike> I was hoping it was actually an AI he wrote for the purpose
21:21:56 <katla> it seems like you could write an AI to play this game
21:22:01 <katla> but it would take a lot of effort
21:22:17 <mnoqy> better just to get some chump to play it for you
21:22:59 <katla> i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left
21:23:21 <Bike> wow i already hate this level.
21:23:23 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/register-number-one,32928/
21:23:36 <Bike> katla: "this is N for people who don't like fun"
21:23:45 <katla> hehe
21:25:10 <elliott> `addquote <katla> i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left
21:25:14 <HackEgo> 1061) <katla> i guess this game is what you get if you remove everything good from super metroid then try to make a game out of whats left
21:25:47 <Bike> the fact that it goes black when you talk on irc is scary since it implies that you're actually playing
21:26:41 <mnoqy> elliott explained it elsewhere actually: this is just a youtube let's play and it goes black when he's switching to the next video
21:26:46 <mnoqy> nobody played this gaem
21:26:56 <mnoqy> ***Game
21:27:01 <Bike> ok phew.
21:27:27 <Bike> so uh. why are you streaming a let's play
21:28:16 <elliott> mnoqy forgot to mention i was joking
21:28:31 <Bike> shut up don't ruin my dream.
21:28:48 <elliott> im going to do this next level without sound to show how hardcore i am.
21:29:18 <katla> whats ZET
21:29:36 <Bike> lava immunity
21:29:46 <Bike> lava being the beige orange dots
21:29:54 <Bike> ok i hate this level.
21:29:57 <elliott> Bike: i'm glad you recognise they're lava
21:30:00 <elliott> some people think they're electricity
21:30:02 <elliott> but they're so wrong??
21:30:18 <Bike> confession: i only know because monqy said so
21:30:28 <elliott> oops
21:30:34 <katla> i knew it was lava without anyone telling me
21:30:40 <Bike> katla > bike, imo
21:30:53 <Bike> hey. hey there's sound!!
21:32:21 <elliott> what
21:32:21 <mnoqy> im glad for this stage
21:32:25 <elliott> how have you been watching it without sound
21:32:45 <Bike> no i've been watching it w/ sound
21:32:45 <katla> the sound is the only good thing about it
21:32:49 <Bike> but you said you were turning it off!
21:32:55 <mnoqy> elliott: probably in reference to 14:28:49 <elliott> im going to do this next level without sound to show how hardcore i am.
21:33:10 <elliott> oh i just muted it on my computer
21:33:45 <Bike> i think this level is the worst.
21:34:05 <nooodl> ha ha ha ha ha
21:34:15 <nooodl> prepare
21:34:19 <mnoqy> hey nooodl did you beat dot action 2
21:34:20 <Bike> Like at least seven worst
21:34:27 <katla> what i dont understand is why you'd even want to complete this level
21:34:36 <nooodl> no i got to stage 50ish and i'm on "post traumatic stress hiatus"
21:35:10 <Bike> katla: some people walk on coals. some people go to the dentist. some people play Dot Action Two
21:38:08 <elliott> i can't even fail at this level in a good way
21:38:09 <Bike> basically elliott is a flagellant.
21:38:11 <elliott> only embarrassing ways
21:39:57 <Bike> elliott: You have to jump between the tall things.
21:40:03 <elliott> yes.
21:40:05 <elliott> i'm aware.
21:40:25 <Bike> Make sure you aim your jumps so that from each tall thing you land onto the next tall thing.
21:41:28 <Bike> Don't touch the lava things. Really you shouldn't be anywhere near the lava on your return trip, it's way below where you should be (which is: on top of the tall things, or between them, in the midst of jumping between the tall things)
21:43:13 <elliott> WHY
21:43:26 <Bike> This level is at least nine bad.
21:43:29 <Bike> IMO.
21:45:04 <katla> oh
21:45:12 <katla> the jumps are blind
21:45:27 <elliott> god bless america
21:45:36 <elliott> yeah it would be easy if you could see where you were jumping
21:45:43 <Phantom_Hoover> what is bike playing
21:45:54 <Bike> The give elliott helpful advice game
21:46:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott
21:46:18 <Phantom_Hoover> no
21:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> you're playing a trial-and-error platformer
21:47:04 <Bike> you understand.
21:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> you should know better
21:47:17 <Bike> elliott knows nothing.
21:47:20 <elliott> are you watching
21:47:23 <Bike> he's enlightened.
21:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> did you learn nothing from the support group!
21:47:52 <Bike> @ask sgeo i have a BYOND-related question for you. i know. i'm sorry world
21:47:52 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (also: are you using OSX???)
21:48:10 <Bike> he's using Haiku with reskinned windows
21:48:48 <Phantom_Hoover> arch just wasn't obscure enough i guess
21:49:20 <elliott> Bike: do you really
21:49:21 <katla> i dont want to watch any more of this horrid game
21:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like a cat rubbing sandpaper on my eardrums
21:49:49 <Bike> elliott: i'm sorry.................................
21:49:58 <nooodl> what is BYOND
21:50:06 <elliott> katla: neither does anybody else. we're trapped
21:50:06 <Bike> some thing sgeo likes
21:50:24 <nooodl> uh oh... this is
21:50:30 <nooodl> wow
21:51:15 <katla> thislevel is the worst ye
21:51:15 <katla> t
21:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like VVVVVV
21:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> except not fun
21:51:52 <nooodl> technically the gravity direction never changes
21:51:56 <nooodl> everything else does!
21:52:07 <Fiora> Bike: isn't BYOND the thing used for space station 13?
21:52:16 <Bike> yeah that's why im asking
21:52:42 <Bike> since i'm thinking about playing it but if it's a web client that would be nice and convenient.
21:52:49 <katla> wow nicely done
21:52:55 <elliott> yessss first time!!!
21:53:05 <Bike> good level
21:53:18 <nooodl> what happened
21:53:22 <Bike> he won
21:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <nooodl> everything else does!
21:53:23 <Bike> the level
21:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> there was an option for this in VVVVVV!
21:53:52 <Phantom_Hoover> no elliott
21:53:54 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't stop now
21:53:59 <elliott> i don't stop
21:54:19 <katla> omh
21:54:30 <Bike> this level's at least twelve worst for sure
21:54:31 <Phantom_Hoover> omz
21:54:32 <Bike> look at this shit
21:54:34 <Bike> definitely 12
21:54:40 <Phantom_Hoover> no
21:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> this is like 23 worst
21:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover> at least
21:55:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:55:23 <elliott> ok i'm ready to reveal the secret
21:55:26 <elliott> i already know how to do this level
21:55:34 <elliott> i just wanted to give you all the experience of doing it spoiler-free
21:55:36 <Bike> :o!!!
21:55:43 <elliott> i warn you
21:55:47 <elliott> it's pretty bullshit
21:55:53 <Bike> so's the game
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21:56:11 <elliott> you just hold down right
21:56:21 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: see, that's why it's 12.
21:56:28 <Bike> well, i'll bump it up to 13 for being misleading.
21:56:32 <Bike> take note elliott
21:58:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
21:58:39 <Phantom_Hoover> that's maybe 3 worst then
21:59:01 <nooodl> the timer
21:59:07 <nooodl> this one's like 10 worst
21:59:22 <katla> horrible
22:01:46 <Bike> "wow i hate this game and i'm not even playing it"
22:01:51 <Phantom_Hoover> it took me far too long to mute the stream
22:01:58 <Bike> "this guy is more of a masochist than i am"
22:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> how much of a masochist are you
22:02:59 <katla> back to work
22:03:16 <katla> do the jumps
22:05:23 <elliott> what have i done to deserve this
22:05:43 <Bike> you made me read about functors being boxes that one time.
22:05:58 <kmc> functor? i hardly know 'er!
22:06:01 * kmc will see himself out.
22:06:49 <elliott> must stay calm
22:07:28 <elliott> did you know that there's literally a time out on pausing
22:07:31 <elliott> it doesnt' let you pause too often
22:08:01 <elliott> ok 5min break
22:08:03 <nooodl> nice
22:08:13 <Bike> congrats!!
22:10:05 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, but it gives you infinite restarts
22:10:07 <Phantom_Hoover> doesn't it
22:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> doesn't it..........
22:10:29 <kmc> http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-130617-obama-putin-meeting.photoblog900.jpg
22:11:43 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: it does
22:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, read that as 'obama put in meeting'
22:12:23 -!- mnoqy has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:13:52 <elliott> im back
22:14:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes
22:15:03 <katla> are not splaying
22:15:10 <katla> i see only black
22:15:33 <elliott> some of my viewers are mutinying
22:15:59 <zzo38> I have used templates having lines line {{Template:{{{1}}}|num=0|name=NROM|disc=Discrete|who=Nintendo|prgrom=32768}} in some MediaWiki but does Wikipedia or Esolang wiki uses it or anything else you have done anything like this?
22:16:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't see
22:16:03 <Phantom_Hoover> anything
22:16:16 <Bike> yeah there's nothing playing.
22:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> this is: unacceptable
22:19:40 * Bike crosses arms, nods
22:21:00 <nooodl> elliott: i'm disappointed
22:22:02 <elliott> happy now???
22:22:07 <Phantom_Hoover> did you
22:22:10 <Phantom_Hoover> make that yourself
22:22:15 <elliott> yes
22:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> the alternative, see
22:22:24 <nooodl> omg good
22:22:26 <nooodl> very good
22:22:28 <Bike> fantastic
22:22:32 <kmc> zzo38: what's interesting about templates like that
22:22:33 <nooodl> it's so good
22:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> is that you found a banner with 'intemrisision' written on it
22:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> and i don't know which is stupider
22:23:03 <elliott> i'm using $500 broadcasting software
22:23:06 <elliott> it lets me do great things like this
22:23:42 <zzo38> kmc: Look at http://ifwiki.org/index.php/List_of_Z-machine_interpreters to see how it can be used.
22:24:28 <kmc> looks pretty nice zzo38
22:25:28 <kmc> Wikipedia has a lot of those sorts of tables but I don't know what kind of templates they us
22:25:31 <kmc> e
22:26:01 <kmc> how does Z-machine piracy check work
22:26:13 <elliott> behold
22:26:30 <zzo38> kmc: It is unspecified.
22:26:39 <kmc> zzo38: How can it be implemented, then?
22:26:57 <zzo38> My own interpreter just uses a command-line parameter to decide whether it is genuine or not.
22:27:02 <Bike> oh god it's back help
22:27:15 <zzo38> (Also, no existing Z-machine games even use that anyways.)
22:27:19 <kmc> zzo38: so this is like the Evil Bit in IP then
22:27:58 <elliott> this level is 5,000,000 bad
22:27:59 <elliott> fyi
22:28:07 <zzo38> (Fweep does it by if you specified -p switch then it assumes it is pirated and if you don't specify -p then it assumes it is genuine.)
22:28:10 <Phantom_Hoover> which level `i wasn't watching'
22:28:12 <Bike> i don't know the bad->worst unit conversion.
22:28:13 <elliott> this level
22:28:14 <elliott> are you ready
22:28:17 <Bike> I'm ready.
22:28:19 <nooodl> this is 30 worst
22:28:20 <nooodl> i'm NOT joking
22:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> im redy
22:28:39 <katla> im not ready
22:28:48 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose it might be something like that.
22:28:59 <elliott> wow this level is a lot easier than it was when nooodl did it
22:29:02 <Phantom_Hoover> 500 worst
22:29:02 <Bike> i see your point.
22:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how with every retry you get ever further from success
22:30:52 <zzo38> The only Z-machine program I know that even uses the piracy check is CZECH, which is used to test if the Z-machine interpreter is working properly. Fweep passes 100%, unless -p is specified in which case it fails that test but still continues running; it just logs the failure and then reports at the end that one test failed.
22:31:43 <elliott> adjsfojortgfdvcoij m
22:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you're going to get past this level this side of heat death
22:33:25 <elliott> whyyy
22:33:38 <nooodl> intermeseinos
22:35:40 <zzo38> It is recommended that an interpreter assume the game disc is genuine by default, and my interpreters do this too. No games use it; nevertheless, you could write a game that uses it in order to shorten the game if the game disc is pirated; you could use this to make a short demo version using the same story file, in case some players want to play the short version, or if you are providing it on a telnet server and want to sell the full version.
22:37:30 <elliott> i should move to sf in a cube like kmc instead of doing this
22:38:08 <nooodl> cube action 2
22:38:39 <kmc> yes
22:39:06 <Bike> it's like cube action 2 but 3d.
22:39:15 <elliott> cube action 2 is very like cube action 2, yes
22:39:15 <Bike> did you warp the intermissions picture
22:39:23 <kmc> when the guy dropped it off today he said "think tetris"
22:39:25 <kmc> true story
22:39:39 <nooodl> kmc: what's this story about
22:40:41 <elliott> Bike: yes
22:41:40 <kmc> it's about my cube
22:41:54 <Phantom_Hoover> is that a euphemism
22:42:54 <elliott> katla: you were so right
22:43:06 <katla> about what
22:43:11 <nooodl> it's been 24 minutes
22:43:16 <nooodl> Unbelievable
22:43:17 <elliott> dot action 2
22:44:02 <nooodl> imo play more so it takes less time
22:44:24 <nooodl> this is the run
22:44:32 <elliott> preparing myself, mentally and physically
22:44:59 <nooodl> i'm imagining a montage of elliott doing push ups
22:45:12 <elliott> just let out the most ungodly noise
22:45:35 <nooodl> transcribe it for us (ps we really need mic commentary)
22:45:35 <kmc> elliott pushup montage
22:45:49 <elliott> don't make fun of me kmc
22:46:37 <elliott> auguhhh
22:46:37 <nooodl> i like how the first attempt went really well
22:46:43 <nooodl> i know exactly how elliott feels now......
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22:50:41 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:50:42 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm
22:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i want to link to the turkish star wars training montage but i don't know how to make it relevnat
22:51:00 <Phantom_Hoover> *relevant
22:51:10 <kmc> turkish star wars is the best
22:51:22 <kmc> i don't even remember that montage and yet I know it's the best
22:52:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saOSPjm8cX0
22:52:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (there's another version but it is inferior!)
22:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (it has push it to the limit in place of the original soundtrack and the quality isn't as shitty)
22:56:36 <elliott> nooodl: did you ever work out time <-> seconds
22:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a frame thing presumably?
22:57:14 <nooodl> hmm no
22:57:22 <nooodl> i estimate it's about 1/3 second = 1 time
22:57:34 <nooodl> or 1/4 ratehr
22:59:20 <elliott> what was the trick for the last part again...
22:59:25 <nooodl> there's no trick :-)
22:59:33 <nooodl> the trick is suffering hth
22:59:34 <elliott> well what are you supposed to even do, I've forgotten
23:00:05 <nooodl> jump from the very edge of the thing
23:00:18 <elliott> right but the water...
23:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i just see itnemrisision
23:01:50 <elliott> yes
23:01:52 <elliott> i'm preparing
23:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> the push-ups thing was a joke elliott!
23:02:29 <nooodl> btw i don't think it's even possible
23:02:32 <nooodl> if you pause this long
23:02:35 <nooodl> you have to be in the flow
23:02:51 <nooodl> now you're gonna unpause and it'll be like Whoa
23:02:56 <nooodl> and you'll mess it up
23:02:56 <tswett> In BlogNomic, currently you can get points by coming up with a theorem that you can prove, but nobody else can prove.
23:03:17 <tswett> So I took two huge prime numbers, multiplied them together, posted the result, and asserted that that number is composite.
23:03:30 <katla> eh
23:04:02 <Bike> you don't have to publicize your proof?
23:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> that would defeat the point wouldn't it
23:04:18 <tswett> You do, but once you do, nobody else can submit a proof.
23:04:40 <tswett> Also, you have to wait 48 hours before submitting a proof.
23:04:52 <Bike> something something zero-knowledge
23:05:04 <Fiora> Aren't there primality tests though?
23:05:09 <Fiora> someone could run a primality test on it and show that it's not prime
23:05:23 <tswett> Fiora: true, but nobody has done that.
23:05:28 <elliott> well, the idea is that modern encryption algorithms are based on multiplying huge primes isn't it?
23:05:34 <elliott> or whatever.
23:05:50 <elliott> and factoring the result is difficult
23:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> you can tell a number isn't prime without actually finding its factors i guess
23:06:14 <tswett> Well, the idea is that the product of two really big prime numbers is hard to factor.
23:06:20 <elliott> also I think all the efficient primality tests are probabilistic?
23:06:21 -!- carado has quit (Read error: No route to host).
23:06:24 <tswett> The fact that this fact is used in encryption is just sort of a side effect.
23:06:35 <katla> hthere's a fast algorithm to check if a numberis prime
23:06:40 <katla> withouut factoring
23:06:57 <tswett> elliott: I think that all of the common primality tests can tell you with certainty that a number is composite.
23:07:07 -!- carado has joined.
23:07:14 <Bike> yeah AKS is assured
23:07:24 <Bike> it's factoring that's hard
23:07:41 <tswett> Like, if the number is prime, it's guaranteed to say "the number may be prime", but if it's composite, there's a 25% chance it says "the number may be prime" and a 75% chance it says "the number is definitely composite".
23:07:43 <Bike> PRIMES is in P maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan
23:14:37 <Fiora> http://www.javascripter.net/math/primes/millerrabinprimalitytest.htm says it's composite~~
23:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> what do those ~s even mean
23:15:47 <elliott> javascript seems like... not the ideal thing to do heavy arithmetic with
23:15:49 <Phantom_Hoover> are you saying "" in a really sarcastic tone
23:16:30 <Bike> they mean like tildes
23:16:31 <Bike> hth.
23:17:02 <tswett> Someone told me what they mean once.
23:17:13 <tswett> I think they indicate some certain thing.
23:17:31 <tswett> Like, something related to something, or whatever. Like, when the one thing happens, then you use ~~ to indicate that.
23:17:57 <tswett> Except that, like, it's not really a thing that happens; it's really, like, the sort of thing that *could* happen, if the people were talking face to face.
23:18:05 <elliott> what
23:18:19 <tswett> So, you know, like, when, uh... yeah, that.
23:19:05 <Bike> are you high
23:19:20 <tswett> It is very unlikely.
23:19:41 <tswett> In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's extremely unlikely. Or maybe not, depending on how you define "high".
23:21:20 <elliott> omg 24 time
23:21:21 <elliott> luxury
23:21:33 <nooodl> good
23:22:40 <nooodl> RIP
23:22:58 <nooodl> remember when i did exactly that and i had it 3-4 tries later though!
23:24:42 <Fiora> Oh wow, the miller rabin primalitytest takes a long time if it's a probable prime
23:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm
23:25:11 <Fiora> 35844088534668175608533550469325416140711880836358433520741183341559409752958417564900205152763659819317338304041228758958269744936094178001500112469790418773135543301899194065881801585777676220908369 tswett: yours isn't prime but this one is, I think!
23:25:17 <Phantom_Hoover> what happens if you try and do cryptography with something that looks prime
23:25:54 <elliott> did tswett actually say the number?
23:25:56 * elliott didn't see it
23:26:02 <nooodl> where is tswett's number
23:26:03 <tswett> elliott: I guess I didn't.
23:26:09 <tswett> Here it is, with muchos espacios:
23:26:16 <tswett> 35 844 088 534 668 175 608 533 550 469 325 416 140 711 880 836 358 433 520 741 183 341 559 409 752 958 417 564 900 205 152 763 659 819 317 338 304 041 228 758 958 269 744 936 094 178 001 500 112 469 790 418 773 135 543 301 899 194 065 881 801 585 777 676 220 908 841
23:26:36 <Bike> " FFT-based multiplication can push the running time down to O(k log2n log log n log log log n)" logs are officically the worst
23:26:36 <tswett> I know what you're thinking. That's not a number, that's sixty-seven numbers!
23:26:37 <nooodl> nice spaces
23:27:01 <Bike> that's log² n, i gues
23:27:05 <nooodl> i really don't understand how algorithms end up being O(log log n)
23:27:08 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, you could just ask them to prove that the digit sum of the factors is <whatever>
23:27:15 <tswett> Bike: what's k here?
23:27:33 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: or that it has a factor in a certain specific range.
23:27:48 <Bike> "The number of different values of a that we test"
23:27:53 <Bike> nooodl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_rabin#Algorithm_and_running_time behold.
23:28:06 <Sgeo> Bike, what's your BYOND-related question?
23:28:24 <tswett> Bring your own nondeterminism?
23:28:37 <Bike> Sgeo: already rendered irrelevant
23:28:49 <Bike> tswett: the deterministic version is down the page a bit. it sucks
23:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> no, Sgeo likes it so it's probably nostalgic in some capacity
23:29:19 <Bike> I was going to ask if I needed to download anything to play space station 13
23:29:22 <Bike> the answer is apparently yes.
23:29:29 <Sgeo> The BYOND client
23:29:40 <Sgeo> Called "Dream Seeker"
23:29:59 <Sgeo> All resources for the game itself should be automatically downloaded by the client when you connect
23:30:03 <nooodl> i'm reading the blognomic post. what's this whole list nonsense
23:30:11 <nooodl> did you obfuscate it for "fun"....
23:30:16 <Sgeo> An HTML5 BYOND client would be cool
23:30:29 <Sgeo> Although would presumably need a proxy
23:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover> how long have you been playing this elliott
23:33:34 <nooodl> this level: one hour with breaks hth
23:44:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck this, i'm watching apocalypse now
23:44:40 <kmc> good movie imo
23:45:26 <kmc> are you watching the 3½ hour extended edition
23:45:32 <kmc> i haven't seen that
23:46:18 <kmc> I hear the making-of documentary _Hearts of Darkness_ is also very good
23:46:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:46:48 -!- Bike has joined.
23:47:04 <Bike> Sgeo: is the linux byond client functional
23:49:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
23:49:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i don't think i am
23:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i hope i'm not
23:50:40 <kmc> you should imo
23:50:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i... am not going to finish this tonight though
23:54:37 <Phantom_Hoover> welp, i'm torrenting it instead
23:55:03 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, can apocalypse now in any way be compared to elliott's dot action 2 travails
23:55:45 <kmc> i cannot say
23:57:30 <Bike> apocalypse now has a better soundtrack
23:57:39 <kmc> it has a v. good soundtrack
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