00:00:08 and it can take me a while to realise I'm trying to close a window with `-F4, for instance 00:00:59 XD 00:01:15 (no, ` is not next to alt on normal UK keyboards, it's normally above tab, but it doesn't fit there on this keyboard because it's quite short on space) 00:01:41 hm XD looks weird on this screen. 00:01:45 for similar reasons, I rebound the window manager menu to alt-super rather than just super 00:01:58 the two keys are as easy to hit intentionally as one, but harder to hit by mistake 00:03:22 (for anyone reading who doesn't know, Super is the key that normally has the Windows logo on it) 00:03:25 my laptop keyboard for some reason put the windows key to the /right/ of the spacebar 00:03:29 it's very confusing 00:03:50 it goes... CTRL FN ALT SPACE \ ALT WIN CTL then arrows 00:04:46 where's the menu key? 00:04:50 or doesn't it have one? 00:04:57 I would prefer to instead call the keys "Logo" and "Context" and have those words printed on them instead of the icons. 00:04:59 that's weird. my laptop is smaller than yours and has more keys. 00:05:12 mine has a numpad too though 00:05:19 what's the menu key? 00:05:43 the one that's usually equivalent to shift-F10 in most OSes (although not KDE) 00:06:05 and likewise, is usually equivalent to right-clicking on whatever has keyboard focus 00:06:16 I don't use it as much as I should, really 00:06:33 (interestingly, Emacs interprets menu the same way it interprets meta-x, by default) 00:06:33 oh. I guess I don't have it 00:06:39 So it is the key I prefer to call "CONTEXT". In Windows SHIFT+F10 does that in many cases, and right-clicking does too; not all software uses that, as well as not all operating systems 00:06:45 I wonder why my keyboard has two \,| keys 00:06:53 Fiora: I have seen that too. 00:06:54 one's next to space, the other's in the 'normal' place below backspace 00:06:58 there must be some reason for that? 00:07:13 I think it is for when using alternate keyboard layouts, they are different. 00:07:19 Fiora: it's normally because the Return key takes up the space that the top backslash key would use 00:07:28 so it's on two spaces in the keyboard key sensors 00:07:37 normally you extend space over one, or return over the other, depending on your layout 00:07:45 sometimes people don't realise that and just put the key in both places 00:07:54 Huh. 00:08:26 huh the putty shortcuts that it put in the "start menu" actually showed up in the win8 app "start menu" 00:08:33 (this is for US keyboards; it's more complicated in the UK because of the # key) 00:08:44 oerjan: there isn't a separate start menu 00:08:50 so it's trying to do something vaguely backwards-compatible 00:08:52 http://gentechpcforums.com/system-images/Sager/Sager_NP9150/Sager_NP9150-3.jpg 00:08:54 oh yay there's mine 00:08:56 ais523: right 00:09:37 * Bike takes a moment to remember that some keyboards have numpads 00:09:46 everything's so..... left.......... 00:09:46 oerjan: O, maybe it does; I have once set up a computer for someone it had Windows 8 installed. I could still figure it out because the WIN+R to open the run menu is still the same, cmd.exe still works (I thought they would remove it in favor of PowerShell; luckily they kept cmd.exe and even added some more commands), and the other keyboard shortcuts still work even in fullscreen programs. 00:09:59 oerjan: have you figured out how to turn it off yet, btw? 00:10:08 there are something like five ways to do it, and /none/ of them are intuitive 00:10:28 Bike: my feelings are kind of split on that 00:10:32 like on the one hand, I don't think I've ever used it 00:10:46 @oeis 3, 95, 98, 2000, 7, 8 00:10:47 Sequence not found. 00:10:48 ok good i thought you were making a joke about the keyboard being split into keys and numpad. 00:10:52 on the other hand if it wasn't there, the keyboard would have probably been like 1/3 bigger 00:10:55 kmc: lol 00:10:56 and a lot harder to use 00:11:16 i can just about span my keyboard with one hand 00:11:19 @oeis 1, 360, 1 00:11:21 Period numbers of A133900 divided by n^2.[1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,4,1,6,1,4,3,1,1,... 00:11:26 haha 00:11:38 @oeis A133900 00:11:38 a(n) = period of the sequence {b(m), m>=0}, defined by b(m):=binomial(m+n,n)... 00:11:45 come on now 00:11:52 my hand totally stretched out goes from about the left side of the caps to the K/Lish 00:12:06 @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 33, 42, 51 00:12:12 Sequence not found. 00:12:20 I can get from A to = on this keyboard (to pick two keys which are in the same relative positions on it as they are on normal keyboards) 00:12:24 kmc: what's that one? 00:12:44 @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 34 00:12:44 Fiora: yeah what i mean is that it's very small proportionally. 00:12:45 a(n) = solution to the postage stamp problem with 2 denominations and n stam... 00:12:45 I think we've run out of Microsoft products to mock the version numbering of 00:12:53 Bike: makes sense 00:12:57 you have like that mini netbook thing right? 00:12:59 Yeah. 00:13:04 though you also probably have bigger hands <.< 00:13:04 Also that my hands are big, maybe. 00:13:18 these hands were made for graspin' 00:13:27 hee hee my laptop is around two full hand-spans wide 00:13:31 @oeis 14, 18, 23, 28, 34, 42 00:13:32 Local stops on New York City Broadway line (IRT #1) subway.[14,18,23,28,34,4... 00:13:34 there we go 00:13:38 it is a monster 00:13:49 kmc: I was wondering if that's what you were aiming for :) 00:13:58 also I'm amused it's in OEIS 00:14:17 my first attempt was supposed to be the lexington line, which i thought was also in there 00:14:28 the second attempt was correct for the 7th ave line, but ambiguous :/ 00:14:57 @oeis 14, 23, 28, 34, 42, 49, 57 00:14:57 Sequence not found. 00:16:36 @oeis 6,21,107,47176870 00:16:37 Sequence not found. 00:16:39 @oeis 6,21,107 00:16:40 Busy Beaver problem: a(n) = maximal number of steps that an n-state Turing m... 00:16:45 It has it XD 00:17:38 @tell elliott so i found an article explaining The Problem With Procedural Generation: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/TynanSylvester/20130602/193462/The_Simulation_Dream.php 00:17:38 Consider it noted. 00:18:19 ooh. 00:18:25 were you talking about that with elliott, or 00:18:52 i mentioned it ages ago, also me and elliott had a bunch of teenage conversations about game design a while ago 00:19:34 like... in that you're teenagers, or 00:19:57 that's a really cool article :o 00:19:59 * Fiora readreadread 00:20:21 @oeis 1,2,3,5,13 00:20:24 Dana Scott's sequence: a(n) = (a(n-2) + a(n-1) * a(n-3)) / a(n-4), a(0) = a(... 00:20:25 itt we are teenagers 00:20:54 The Michotte thing linked is pretty boss. 00:21:19 @oeis 5,13,29,61,125 00:21:19 2^n-3.[2,1,1,5,13,29,61,125,253,509,1021,2045,4093,8189,16381,32765,65533,13... 00:21:21 Michotte thing? 00:21:24 Could do with hiding the text until you reveal it, though. 00:21:25 Bike, no, in the sense that we made all the mistakes that article mentions 00:21:28 http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Discourse/Narrative/michotte-demo.swf 00:21:53 Not sure I'd call that apophenia, exactly... 00:22:14 that makes a lot of sense 00:22:37 Phantom_Hoover: i worry about that stuf sometimes too. i have ideas for games but think about things like "well, realistically not that many people would be dying in a war, let alone at the hands of one (player) character" but of course that's totally irrelevant 00:22:39 @oeis 2,3,5,13,65533 00:22:40 Ackermann's function A(n,0).[1,2,3,5,13,65533] 00:22:43 @oeis 1, 11, 21, 1211 00:22:43 Look and Say sequence: describe the previous term! (method A - initial term ... 00:23:42 I like how you can easily take the message of the article to real life, heh 00:23:54 "people really don't have time to consider the dynamics of even the ten thousand people in their town" 00:24:58 Look and Say is also called many other things, but really it is just runlength encoding 00:25:07 I guess it's like, how the simulation acts vs how it works 00:25:15 that emergent behavior is okay, but it has to match up with expectations of what makes sense 00:25:29 I guess now I'm thinking of simcity traffic... XD 00:26:05 @pl (\x -> [show $ length x, [head x]]) 00:26:08 ap ((:) . (show $) . length) ((: []) . flip ((:) . head) []) 00:26:08 optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue. 00:27:22 Fiora: what i'm getting out of it is kind of that people don't really know or care about it making sense, they want to play a game. 00:27:29 oerjan: have you figured out how to turn it off yet, btw? <-- well the manual listed a couple 00:28:06 Bike: well like, it has to make sense to their mind so they can understand how it works 00:28:09 Bike: It depends what game, isn't it? 00:28:50 like in simcity people are like "wow these sims are incredibly dumb and don't do the sensible thing, so my brain-ideas of road structures don't work, because the simulation doesn't match intuition"? 00:28:55 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_). 00:29:12 and it's not like, specifically how the simulation is implemented, but whether it matches common sense, so it's understandable 00:29:55 at least that's how it feels I don't know 00:30:05 well, yeah, i'm not getting that out of the article though... 00:30:13 also now i'm thinking of the Lem story simcity is based on argh 00:30:40 I guess my interpretation of the article is just that, it doesn't matter how fancy your simulation is, it matters that the product of that simulation makes sense to the players and fits in their mental model of the game? 00:30:45 so that they can play with it and have fun with it 00:30:51 instead of it being some complex, inscrutable monster 00:31:02 yeah 00:31:36 @pl \x -> (show $ length x) ++ [head x] 00:31:38 also oh gosh the worst feeling in a sim game 00:31:40 ap ((++) . id show . length) ((: []) . head) 00:31:40 optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue. 00:31:43 very odd that the result includes 'id show' 00:31:46 is like when you see something going wrong, like a badly optimized trade route or something 00:31:51 and you /can't figure out how to make it better/ 00:31:58 because the simulation is too complicated or weird 00:32:10 so you keep poking at something hoping to twist it into doing what you want 00:32:50 heh, like pathfinding in an RTS 00:32:54 "no you fucking morons turn around" 00:32:59 i guess that's why they added waypoints 00:34:07 > iterate(concatMap(((++).show.length)<*>((:[]).head)).group)"1" 00:34:08 ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113... 00:34:56 * Fiora tries to think of something she's played that was really egregious like that 00:35:45 Bike, i think the point of the article was meant to just be that 00:35:51 you could go the other way and make Lemmings :D 00:35:55 ok, that was a mishit of the enter button 00:35:57 oh! Star Drive, that grand strategy master of orion type thing that came out a bit ago. the automated freighter system to move stuff around was really inscrutable and because the movement of freighters took so long it was really hard to get feedback on exactly what was moving where, and I constantly had planets running out of food 00:36:12 at least it was realistic 00:36:16 :P 00:36:24 and you could sort of mitigate it with tons of food storage but 00:36:43 well yes there's something fun about a game where crossing the map with your fleet takes 30 minutes XD 00:36:43 but yeah, your aim is to simulate things that can be easily and intuitively modelled by the player 00:37:35 I kinda feel like it also helps to have windows into the simulation, so it's not opaque 00:37:36 (with the exception of like DF and lemmings where the craziness of the sim is half the fun) 00:37:48 like, so you can see more of the lower-level numbers 00:37:48 i meant lemmings as being simplistic 00:37:58 yeah; but i think that's part of being intuitive? 00:38:02 since they pretty much just go forward and all 00:38:05 well yeah 00:38:13 i just meant it's not very simulatey, intentionally of course 00:38:16 or easy 00:38:20 one of the two! 00:39:05 iterate (rle >=> \(x, y) -> [x, y]) [1] 00:39:12 Fiora: "research ability gained: our engineers have found an exploit in the fabric of reality. you can now watch the processor registers" 00:39:17 XD 00:39:42 that reminds me of one of the mods I loved in civ4, one of the features it added was like lots of little things like that 00:40:00 Bike: It resembles some D&D spell I wrote once called "Break Into Debugger" 00:40:02 so you could see how much effect a new building would have in the tooltip (not just "+10% science" but the actual + based on the current science) 00:40:16 or like, a breakdown of all the odds-multipliers in combat and how they affect things 00:40:24 so everything made so much more instant sense 00:43:43 > iterate((<**>[show.length,take 1]).group)"1" 00:43:44 Couldn't match type `[GHC.Types.Char]' with `GHC.Types.Char' 00:43:44 Expected type... 00:43:46 kmc: You wrote some Haskell program for "look and say", but I like the one I wrote is better, or perhaps like this: lookAndSay = iterate (runLengthEncode >=> tupleToList) [1]; 00:43:52 hmph 00:44:04 :t [show.length,take 1] 00:44:04 [[Char] -> String] 00:44:21 :t (<**>[show.length,take 1]) 00:44:22 [[Char]] -> [String] 00:44:41 oerjan: Do you like my way better, or your way, or the other way? 00:44:47 http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/ so this is pretty darkly funny 00:44:59 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 00:46:31 zzo38: unless all the functions you used are in lambdabot's default environment, i don't think yours counts 00:46:54 oerjan: O, OK. 00:47:21 (I also don't know if either function I wrote exists in any package, although I did define them myself.) 00:47:40 > iterate(concat.(<**>[show.length,take 1]).group)"1" 00:47:41 ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113... 00:48:22 Or you can use let to define them within your expression, like let { ... } in ... if you prefer that way. 00:48:24 @oeis 341,561,645,115,1387 00:48:25 Sequence not found. 00:48:36 @oeis 561,1105,1729,2465 00:48:37 Carmichael numbers: composite numbers n such that a^(n-1) == 1 (mod n) for e... 00:49:05 There's a book site that gets mentioned here periodically, but I can't remember the name of it. Lots of CS and math books. Any thoughts? 00:50:09 -!- nooga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:50:36 that's pretty vague, man 00:51:02 also all the cool kids just google stuff and pirate it. 00:51:34 I know, there was just a specific one that occasionally gets mentioned. 00:52:14 I mainly like it because of the selection. I don't have any difficulty pirating when necessary, this was just a convenient place 00:52:45 > let { runLengthEncode = map (length &&& head) . group; tupleToList (x, y) = [x, y]; } in iterate (runLengthEncode >=> tupleToList) [1] 00:52:46 [[1],[1,1],[2,1],[1,2,1,1],[1,1,1,2,2,1],[3,1,2,2,1,1],[1,3,1,1,2,2,2,1],[1... 00:53:12 > let f c d n | n == 0 = z | e == d = f (c+1) d r | otherwise = 100 * f 1 e r + z where z = 10*c + d; (r,e) = n `divMod` 10 in iterate (f 0 1) 1 00:53:13 [1,11,21,1211,111221,312211,13112221,1113213211,31131211131221,132113111231... 00:53:34 > iterate(sequence[show.length,take 1]<= Couldn't match type `GHC.Types.Char' with `GHC.Base.String' 00:53:35 Expected type:... 00:53:50 * Bike makes gagging gesture 00:54:02 :t sequence[show.length,take 1] 00:54:03 [Char] -> [String] 00:54:12 but i don't think i've seen that anyway NihilistDandy, sorry. closest i can think of is readscheme but i haven't really seen it mentioned here. 00:54:53 I'll have to go digging through the logs. It was either here or #haskell-blah, though I think it was both 00:55:21 > iterate(join.sequence[show.length,take 1]<= ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113... 00:55:21 biiike what's polylog(n) 00:56:08 a polynomial in log 00:56:15 ? 00:56:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polylogarithmic_function 00:56:21 like, a polynomial of log(n) 00:56:39 so like, log(n)^C ? 00:56:39 Sgeo might be the one who mentioned it to me, now that I think of it. That or elliott. Though, given my memory, it might as well have been byorgey 00:56:46 fiora: log(n) is polylog(n), as is log(n)³ and 3*log(n)⁴ - log(n)² 00:56:55 oerjan: nice 00:57:17 so like, why is 2^(log(n)^c) not polynomial? 00:57:34 uh... because that's not a polynomial? it's exponential in log(n). 00:57:46 but isn't it... not exponential in N? 00:57:50 I guess I'm confused >_< 00:58:18 like it's um... 2^(log(n)) * 2^(log(n)) ... c times 00:58:19 libgen, in case anyone's wondering 00:58:24 so that's... n*n*n*n... c times 00:58:26 so n^c right? 00:58:28 or am I terrible at math 00:58:41 ^ isn't associative 00:58:52 ...? 00:59:03 you changed 2^(log(n)^c) to (2^log(n))^c 00:59:20 but isn't 2^(log(n)^2) equal to 2^(log(n)) * 2^(log(n))? 00:59:26 oh. that's 2^(2log(n)) 00:59:30 oh. 00:59:32 right 00:59:41 * Fiora is bad at math 00:59:46 example: (2^3)^4 = fucking gigantic, 2^(3^4) = 4096 00:59:51 2417851639229258349412352 i guess 00:59:57 wait no 01:00:00 reverse the order there. 01:00:07 gj bike 01:00:32 so 2^(log(n)^c) is equal to n^(what)? *does math 01:01:30 it equals (((2^log(n))^log(n))^log(n))^... 01:01:39 > iterate(shows.length<$>take 1<= Couldn't match type `GHC.Show.ShowS' with `[GHC.Types.Char]' 01:01:40 Expected type... 01:01:47 um, probably. i am also bad at math. 01:01:55 okay I did this 01:02:00 2^(log(n)^c) == n^f(n) 01:02:05 logN(2^(log(n)^c)) = f(n) 01:02:15 (log(n)^c)/log(n) = f(n) 01:02:22 log(n)^(c-1) = f(n) ? 01:02:37 so n^(log(n)^(c-1) == 2^(log(n)^c)? 01:02:48 uh maybe 01:02:54 that's definitely not polynomial in n though 01:02:57 that makes sense 01:03:07 I guess I see where quasi-polynomial comes from then 01:03:15 it's like, it's not polynomial but it's not /that much bigger/ 01:03:24 :t shows.length<$>take 1 01:03:24 [a] -> ShowS 01:03:26 it's subexponential definitely 01:03:39 "In mathematics, a quasi-polynomial (pseudo-polynomial) is a generalization of polynomials. While the coefficients of a polynomial come from a ring, the coefficients of quasi-polynomials are instead periodic functions with integral period." oh christ fiora 01:03:46 :t shows.length<$>take 1<= Couldn't match type `ShowS' with `[c0]' 01:03:47 Expected type: [a0] -> [c0] 01:03:47 Actual type: [a0] -> ShowS 01:03:53 I meant the complexity class >_< 01:04:02 :t (shows.length<$>take 1)<= Couldn't match type `ShowS' with `[c0]' 01:04:03 Expected type: [a0] -> [c0] 01:04:03 Actual type: [a0] -> ShowS 01:04:07 yeah i know :P 01:04:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-polynomial_time#Quasi-polynomial_time 01:04:12 hmph 01:04:20 "Quasi-polynomial time algorithms are algorithms which run slower than polynomial time, yet not so slow as to be exponential time" yeah i'd rather say subexponential honestly 01:04:44 so like... the expression they have there 01:04:52 that can describe *all* running times that are neither exponential nor polynomial? 01:05:05 um, between them, probably? 01:05:05 erm, I mean, that are in between 01:05:13 so like, there's nothing bigger than QP but smaller than EXP? 01:05:28 hm 01:05:31 is QP 'quite polynomial' 01:05:34 quasi 01:05:39 maybe like 2^(iterated log of n) is smaller 01:05:48 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:05:58 there are probably any number of weird functions you could put in there, they just don't come up in practice? 01:06:10 :t shows.length 01:06:10 [a] -> ShowS 01:06:27 I guess... it just feels like "subexponential" is a bigger thing than just that? 01:06:36 oerjan: Are you trying to make a golf or something? 01:06:38 oh here's an example 01:06:40 "Another example is the best-known algorithm for the graph isomorphism problem, which runs in time 2O(√(n log n))." 01:06:47 er, that's 2^O. 01:07:02 :t take 1 01:07:03 [a] -> [a] 01:07:13 Is there a logic that can have not only the "material implication" but also the "tristate implication" (if the left side is false, the result is high-impedance)? 01:07:14 :t shows.length<$>take 1 01:07:15 [a] -> ShowS 01:07:18 ugh my head. 01:07:27 how does that make sense... 01:09:18 :t (shows.length<$>take 1)"11" 01:09:19 ShowS 01:09:51 I wonder if anyone is making a esolang "BelalCode" 01:09:54 > (shows.length<$>take 1)"11" "" 01:09:54 "1" 01:10:32 ...duh! 01:11:04 > iterate((shows.length<*>take 1)<= ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113... 01:11:09 ooh 01:11:30 > iterate(shows.length<*>take 1<= ["1","11","21","1211","111221","312211","13112221","1113213211","3113121113... 01:11:48 oerjan: Are you trying to make a golf? 01:11:58 sort of 01:12:21 OK 01:12:45 * kmc golf clap 01:16:50 yay 01:17:38 "'Tweety can fly' is a logical consequence of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird} but not of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird, Tweety is a penguin 01:18:05 "'Tweety can fly' is a logical consequence of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird} but not of {Birds can typically fly, Tweety is a bird, Tweety is a penguin}." This seems to me something related to a pull-up resistor??? 01:18:45 classical logic hasn't got a "typically"... 01:19:08 I know; it isn't classical logic. 01:20:21 i mean, what logical consequence are you talking about 01:20:59 I don't know. 01:21:34 because i wouldn't call that a logical consequence and it seems plenty unintuitive besides 01:22:17 I agree it isn't really a logical consequence, but maybe in some logic it can be. 01:22:52 It seems related to a pull-up resistor somehow 01:22:55 -!- shachaf has joined. 01:23:14 wbchaf 01:23:26 i don't think i want a logic where you can conclude a definite from a 'typically'... 01:23:54 thiuaf 01:24:34 Or to Inform 7, if you write something like "A bird can typically fly. A penguin is a bird. A penguin cannot fly. Tweety is a bird. Tweety is a penguin." (I don't know if this is actually a valid Inform 7 code, though) 01:25:49 As they say: All penguins are mortal. Tweety is mortal. Tweety is a penguin. 01:26:10 Indeed 01:26:57 (I meant "A penguin is a kind of bird." but still maybe it is wrong) 01:27:11 http://www.futek.com/images/pages/aboutus/Element_X.jpg it's good to know other industries have hiring practices as bizarre as IT 01:27:29 (In fact it probably is wrong; I don't know how to program in Inform 7, nor do I know how to program in Inform 6, actually) 01:28:12 Most philosophers are jerks. Socrates was a philosopher. Socrates was a jerk. 01:28:25 "as they say" 01:30:06 I agree that the conclusion is no good; I am just saying that maybe there can be some kind of logic that can have such things. 01:30:30 Who said the conclusion is no good? 01:30:38 He really was a jerk. 01:30:38 i did 01:30:48 not wrt socrates. fuck that guy. 01:31:19 shachaf: Maybe it is, but that doesn't make the conclusion good, any more than "If 2+2=4 therefore the sun is yellow" is good. 01:31:21 Is Inform proprietary? 01:31:49 ==Bike 01:31:58 Sgeo: I think it was once, but now it isn't, as far as I know. 01:32:40 kmc: I replaced my IRC window with a counter to see how many times I switched to it. 01:32:46 I got up to 55 this time. 01:32:55 heh. 01:33:36 haha 01:34:08 (But I think the "home position" for my fingers has one finger on the 8 key now...) 01:34:23 how 01:34:35 o.O 01:34:36 "Art Evolution: Surprisingly averted, whether intentionally or what. Rather sadly, there has been very little change in Illiad's art style from his very beginning strips to his most current - in almost 13 years his artistic style has remained very ... rough. 01:34:37 " 01:34:42 (about User Friendly) 01:35:00 has it changed in any other way 01:35:35 It stopped producing new strips back in 2009... 01:35:38 That's a change 01:35:45 is it sgeo? is it? 01:35:50 did user friendly ever exist outside of your mind 01:36:30 Also, the introduction of new characters totally counts as a change. The book I bought as a kid started with the introduction of Dust Puppy) 01:39:20 http://vigor.sourceforge.net/ 01:40:09 you bought a book of this shit? 01:40:28 i read a lot of Dilbert as a small child 01:41:37 -!- Bike_ has joined. 01:42:12 Bike, that's how I found out about it 01:43:31 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 01:44:48 Bike_: How does one posse a panache? 01:45:56 kmc, same 01:46:08 I still read Dilbert every day >.> 01:46:32 but it's bad 01:46:32 Used to save a copy of every strip onto my computer when I was younger. Glad I don't need to do that anymore 01:47:56 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:49:57 -!- Bike has joined. 01:54:03 gah i tried using the formatted logs but the text is huge and zooming in IE 10 breaks the formatting... 01:59:56 Sgeo: I used to have all the `olist comics on my server! 02:00:03 In a few minutes I will again. 02:00:17 Does giantitp.com throttle or something? 02:00:33 By throttle I don't mean throttle. 02:00:39 I mean do they get upset if you download a lot. 02:01:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 02:01:59 do they 'throttle' you 02:02:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:04:15 I have a robots.txt that has a command to slow down when making automated mirrors like this, although wget doesn't understand that command, so you have to use its own command. 02:04:48 Does gopher support it, though? 02:05:02 Or is gopher auto-throttled by the number of gopher users in the world? 02:05:22 Well, actually I made up a format for gopher to support it, although I don't know if it is used. 02:05:54 How do I use it? 02:06:02 Access the selector named ".robot" (without quotes) in my computer, it does includes the command to slow down. 02:06:25 gopher://zzo38computer.org/0.robot 02:06:34 What does 0 mean? 02:06:57 The 0 means the type code, it is a plain text file. 02:07:39 There are other type codes such as 1 for a menu, 7 if the user can enter the query text and then it is a menu, and 9 for downloading binary files. 02:08:09 What if I just use a space? 02:08:47 It depends on the client whether or not it will work. 02:09:18 The type code isn't send to the server so the server won't care if the client supports it or not. 02:09:24 Oh. 02:09:29 Did you write your own gopher server? 02:09:50 Yes, but even if I didn't write my own gopher server, the same thing is true. 02:10:01 I thought you did. 02:10:11 Is that why it doesn't work with most gopher clients I've tried? 02:11:14 No. It is that your gopher clients may be broken by using a slash as the selector string even when it is blank; someone (maybe it was you?) test it and said it did that. But there is a work around: Use "root" as the selector string. 02:11:24 -!- maria has joined. 02:13:51 -!- maria has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:18:02 I still haven't found any usable Gopher clients on OS X. Any recommendations? 02:18:26 Then again, I think zzo38 is the only reason I've ever had cause to use gopher, so maybe I don't need it :D 02:18:48 NihilistDandy: I don't know. I wrote one in shell scripts (although it was written in MinGW and probably needs to be modified), so maybe that one works. 02:18:55 HTTP proxies for Gopher acceptable? 02:19:13 Sgeo_: That would be a good workaround 02:19:19 Sgeo_: For my server no; the router blocks it. 02:19:25 Oh, yeesh 02:19:29 zzo38, o.O why? 02:19:52 Sgeo_: Because the proxies won't make it so that Google won't index those proxies. 02:20:46 If you have a Windows emulator or some way to compile VB6 programs for non-Windows computers, you can also try Visgopher. 02:21:52 I guess I can use Overbite with FF 02:22:03 I haven't tried it, but it looks workable 02:22:23 Yes, you can use that. 02:24:30 In languages with first-class continuations can you get the behavior of arbitrary monads to seem first-class? 02:24:33 E.g. parsers. 02:25:50 zzo38 has Gopher, and I have Active Worlds 02:26:01 Except AW is proprietary I guess 02:26:18 shachaf, yes I think 02:26:52 -!- Bike_ has joined. 02:28:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:28:25 Dammit what's that library I fell in love with when I last looked at Scala 02:28:29 That's what I want to link shachaf to 02:28:46 What are the benefits to gopher, anyway? 02:28:57 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:28:59 it has the zzo38 nature 02:29:47 NihilistDandy: Simplicity is one. 02:29:54 shachaf, https://github.com/urso/embeddedmonads 02:29:58 Sgeo_: Link him to pipes. 02:30:19 is there gopher over ssl 02:30:30 Also, the screen does not have to render HTML/CSS/etc which aren't suitable for it. 02:30:38 Or at least a gopher equivalent to SSL 02:30:45 kmc: Probably you can do it if you want to; I don't know if any existing servers do. 02:31:10 But it's useless to have a server that does it if no clients do it 02:31:17 wouldn't the gopher equivalent of SSL be SSL? 02:31:23 Unless it encourages clients to adapt it 02:31:26 it's application protocol agnostic 02:32:04 which is occasionally annoying, e.g. the duplication of HTTP Host: header and SSL's SNI 02:32:13 kmc: Yes, that is why it doesn't matter, if it uses it, if the client supports it, etc, just use something that allow you to make SSL connection with normal connections, and then clearly it will work. 02:32:19 Hmm, drracket is kind of nice as a lightweight experimenting with code thing. 02:32:30 it's ok 02:32:55 i think it's annoying to use Racket as a Scheme implementation 02:33:02 if you do #lang r5rs then you lose out on libraries or something 02:33:37 Libraries that R5RS has no standard way to access anyway? 02:33:55 Maybe it could be a pseudo-TLD so that if you connect to "example.org.ssl" then the DNS client will interfere with it and make it a SSL connection locally in the network driver. 02:34:10 zzo38: that is a strange idea, one that I kind of like 02:34:35 oh well one problem is that #lang r5rs prints cons cells in a weird way 02:34:52 Racket distinguishes mutable and immutable cons cells, and the former are written like {2 . 3} rather than (2 . 3) 02:35:01 and r5rs cons creates a mutable cell, naturally 02:35:46 hm but it's different if you select "R5RS" from the menu, it seems 02:35:54 shachaf: I agree about drracket 02:36:20 shachaf: http://docs.racket-lang.org/plot/ looks neat 02:36:51 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 02:40:47 I ... don't think I like how read console:// works in Rebol 02:40:59 If stdin is the console, it will only read one line 02:41:06 good scheme 02:41:16 So can't really do cat with it... I think 02:42:26 I/O is very schemey in Rebol. Including Tcp 02:42:31 There's a tcp:// and a udp:// 02:43:02 That logic about birds that can typically fly seems to me like pull-up resistors and pull-down resistors, kind of. Isn't it? 02:46:37 Here are the schemes available on my copy of Rebol3 02:46:48 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:47:31 system:// console:// callback:// file:// dir:// event:// dns:// tcp:// clipboard:// http:// 02:52:27 help how do delimited continuations work 02:52:50 pray to oleg and ye shall receive 02:53:26 shachaf, when you shift, what you're shifting takes full control 02:53:38 But it's given an argument representing what would have been the rest of the computation 02:53:57 If it wants, it can feed that "rest of the computation" a value as many or as few times as it wants, and use those results as it pleases 02:54:04 And whatever it returns is the final result 02:55:01 It's much like >>=... >>= gets as an argument a function, which it can use as many or as few times as it wants to determine its final result 02:56:36 do { a <- ma; b <- mb }... the first >>= that that translates into gets to choose whether the rest of do block gets run at all, or how many times, and what happens to those... exactly like the expression given to shift gets to choose what happens to the rest of the computation, whether to use it and how many times in calculating its final result 03:00:09 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 03:13:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:14:36 help 03:15:00 trying to write continuationy code in scheme and missing the feeling of fighting the type checker 03:15:23 Delimited continuations seem like the sort of thing that might have an equivalent in category theory. 03:16:16 -!- tswett has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU. 03:17:05 shachaf: Implement overly strict and completely nonsensical typechecker in scheme, hth 03:17:41 error compiling (+ 4 5): type mismatch: Even, Odd 03:18:04 thanks Bike 03:18:06 Don't be ridiculous. + isn't a valid operation on Odd. 03:18:08 np 03:18:14 feels like home 03:18:28 Medical foods are foods that are specially formulated and intended for the dietary management of a disease that has distinctive nutritional needs that cannot be met by normal diet alone. 03:18:31 tswett: That's why you get an error! 03:18:42 I think you should implement a typechecker based on PID controllers and neural nets. 03:18:51 ooh, that sounds exciting. 03:20:27 Instead of declaring the entire program to be either correct or incorrect, it simply assigns an error value to every little piece of the program. 03:21:49 Your program will still run no matter what, but it will attempt to spend more time running code with a lower error value. 03:22:00 If all of the code has a high error value, the program will just run really slowly. 03:22:01 Then deletes the line, like fuckitjs or certain versions of GHC 03:40:05 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:41:13 ** Script error: cannot use write on port! value 03:41:18 ARGUMENTS: 03:41:19 destination (port! file! url! block!) 03:41:22 * Sgeo_ wats 03:41:28 deep 03:43:29 I can't even manage to write a cat program in Rebol 03:43:30 I suck 03:46:02 Sgeo_: What are these advanced semantics in Rebol? 03:46:42 @tell phantom_hoover http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2RzY2Mzr94 game 03:46:42 Consider it noted. 03:47:11 -!- sprocklem has joined. 04:00:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:11:05 Did whoever added 'hazanavicius coraile oussama bin vodid muhammad jihad pirlgrimage "hello world" von dreyfus said' intend to make the BelalCode article? Well, it can be put back on in case it is actually made and that such a thing is working. 04:12:19 @tell Phantom_Hoover I'm going to design a Brainfuck-equivalent language. 04:12:19 Consider it noted. 04:13:12 (Not actually BF equiv. It won't be able to represent +- or >< or ]..[ or other such atrocities that I can think of. 04:13:46 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 04:13:46 Actually I am one thought of things like that too, a kind of compression that cannot represent such things. 04:15:01 ion: kmc can confirm that anything + acid is a nice combination 04:15:26 So, my ideas: In some circumstances, some characters are impossible. With only 7 commands taken, there's room for one pseudocommand. Let that command expand into two commands on decompression. I _think_ that would work on random data 04:15:27 * pikhq snickers a bit at the PS4 press con at E3. 04:15:42 * pikhq shall sum it up for you: "Playstation: It's Not Xbox." 04:16:25 pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA 04:16:28 But let's try this: It expands into the previous character twice. And, if the previous was a pseudocharacter, then that pseudocharacter's character to expand into 4 times 04:16:28 etc 04:17:01 Bike: Yup. 04:17:04 Don't know if RLE might be a better idea 04:17:09 But this is certainly interesting 04:17:22 Are there circumstances that would give room for two pseudocharacters? 04:17:51 erm, pseudocommands 04:18:57 Also, are there better ways to do fewer than 3 bits per command? Since each command after 1 is restricted doesn't need 3 bits, what ways besides a pseudocharacter that expands into two could take advantage of that? 04:21:09 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:23:59 Use some dynamic Huffman, maybe, with the checking of what is redundancy, possibly in more ways that your specification. 04:25:26 Someone wrote comment about Malbolge, on the "99 bottles of beer" program, the comment: HOW can human (without drinking 99 bottles of bear) write in this language??? 04:25:37 Sgeo_: Arithmetic encoding? 04:25:43 Can you write in this language if you drink 99 bottles of beer (or of bear)? 04:26:05 One can get fractional bits that way. 04:26:42 pikhq, hmm 04:27:38 I need 3 bits/command most of the time, it's only on occasion that I can get away with a little less 04:28:04 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 04:32:50 shachaf: disconfirm 04:39:39 oh well 04:40:29 http://ericlippert.com/2013/06/10/construction-destruction/ was pretty confusing when I thought it was talking about C++. 04:41:03 ah it's C# 04:41:28 there are small syntactic clues but i definitely can imagine skimming it and thinking it's C++ 04:41:54 Yep. 04:42:01 ....system/ports/output isn't completely implemented yet 04:43:45 what was the context of your acid claim anywaychaf 04:44:01 21:14 Btw, tables + acid-state is a nice combination. 04:44:05 heh 04:44:19 i wish there were some state of the US particularly known for its acid 04:44:20 Of course Rebol 2 is more stable. It's also proprietary. 04:44:23 in the past kmc has compared """acid-state""" to haskell 04:44:30 rolleyes 04:44:31 I don't think anyone wants a deadfish impl. in a proprietary language 04:44:36 EVERYONE WANTS IT 04:44:39 ? 04:44:39 DEADFISH IN MIRANDA NOWWW 04:44:53 (acid-state is a drugz euphemizm btw) 04:45:02 we're on the same page shacha 04:45:04 f 04:45:07 (page of blotter acid that is) 04:45:14 Sgeo_: Well, I don't, but you can do it if you want it, I suppose. 04:45:33 zzo38, I want Rebol 3 to be in a half decent state 04:46:12 So I can do this: 04:46:17 https://www.google.com/search?q=blotter+paper+lsd&tbm=isch 04:46:29 read-char: does [to string! read/part console:// 1] 04:46:33 plz uze encrypted.google.com thx hth 04:47:19 I don't remember what it oes better but it does something better. 04:47:21 Maybe referers? 04:47:25 (does is just a convenient way to make an anonymous func that doesn't take arguments) 04:48:24 "According to Google, the difference is with handling referrer information when clicking on an ad." 04:48:31 http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/32367/what-is-the-difference-between-https-google-com-and-https-encrypted-google-c 04:48:59 kmc: btw once i consumed a whole bunch of acid and it messed with my tongue for days 04:49:14 (i'm referring to citric acid * malic acid of course) 04:49:21 naturally 04:49:26 As if there's another way to take that 04:50:36 Should I get in the habit of using * instead of +? 04:50:47 When you have both of two things, instead of either of two things. 04:51:04 heh 04:51:31 E.g. tables * acid-state is a nice combination. 04:51:38 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:51:45 · 04:51:48 × 04:52:03 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 04:52:07 ∩ 04:52:23 ∇×v 04:52:23 ǔ 04:52:33 whoa dude it's like a u with another u above it 04:52:39 ŭ = w 04:52:39 DUDE 04:52:42 a u with another u's hat on 04:53:14 o̊ 04:53:40 m̼ 04:54:37 x̽ 04:56:04 U+2F31D COMBINING BRITISH ACCENT 04:57:32 itym ACCENT INDICATOR + COMBINING ACCENT COUNTRY CODE U + COMBINING ACCENT COUNTRY CODE K 05:01:22 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:01:49 what does "seuta keulaepeuteu" mean 05:01:58 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:02:16 -!- Bike has joined. 05:03:23 oh it's a romanization of the korean name for StarCraft? 05:03:42 yes 05:03:47 it means "bug in google translate" 05:03:55 -_- 05:04:00 -!- sprockle_ has joined. 05:04:29 google doesn't do phonetic latin typing for korean 05:04:34 -!- sprocklem has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:05:49 korean: secretly related to finnish? 05:07:44 i'm sure some linguist has proposed that 05:07:51 finnish isn't IE either!! 05:08:04 right 05:08:26 http://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-the-Finnish-and-Korean-languages-may-share-a-common-root i fucking love quora 05:11:06 ?share=1 05:11:07 Unknown command, try @list 05:12:03 wow why does that work 05:12:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural%E2%80%93Altaic_languages oh fuck me it really is a theory. 05:18:02 kmc: I've been rather miffed about the lack of phonetic typing for Korean in Google Translate, recently 05:18:10 ah really 05:18:20 how is korean typed? 05:18:20 I'm trying to learn Korean 05:18:34 Bike: With a keyboard 05:18:38 one jamo at a time 05:18:43 don't be a smartass please 05:18:58 i was reading about burmese input yesterday and am now reasonably sure typing is impossible 05:19:15 It's actually not bad once you understand hangul, a bit 05:19:21 is that the dual of rean (categoriez joke) 05:19:30 I use the 2-set layout on my machine 05:19:32 maybe that's why they don't have internet in burma 05:20:14 I haven't started learning hanja, yet, though 05:20:26 why do you need those 05:20:59 names, maybe? 05:21:09 reading the packaging of Shin Ramyun 05:21:49 "Today, a good working knowledge of Chinese characters is still important for anyone who wishes to study older texts (up to about the 1990s), or anyone who wishes to read scholarly texts in the humanities." 05:21:58 hm. (though i think that's a typo for "1890s") 05:22:01 lool 05:22:10 Well, why did I learn Latin? To see connections between all the Romance languages. Learn hanja for the same reason one learns hanzi or kanji, I guess 05:22:32 does that really work, i mean, korean and chinese aren't related like romance languages are 05:22:56 The choice of symbols are, though 05:23:18 is the choice of symbols based on pronunciation or meaning or a terrible mix of both? 05:23:40 Learn Latin because it is a dead language so existing words and grammar and so on no longer changes/evolves (although new words are occasionally made up, still) 05:23:42 More that latter 05:24:10 kmc: iirc kanji have never been pronounced very much like chinese? 05:24:11 not sure 05:24:17 what is latin for Bike 05:24:32 «One way of adapting hanja to write Korean in such systems (such as Gugyeol) was to represent native Korean grammatical particles and other words solely according to their pronunciation. For example, Gugyeol uses the characters 爲尼 to transcribe the Korean word "hăni", in modern Korean, that means "does, and so". However, in Chinese, the same characters are read as the expression "wéi ní," meaning "becoming a nun."» 05:24:47 Bike: Kind of, especially in compound words, but still it is an approximation. 05:25:01 shachaf: bikepodes 05:25:43 I don't know much Chinese, but apparently in Mandarin the sound of a character is derived from the main radical and then that is effected by another radical (usually to indicate the consonant sound) 05:26:02 NihilistDandy: I think I read about that, too 05:26:07 i was reading a korean comic and a high school student insulted another student's mislinguistics by saying King Sejong would be rolling in his grave 05:26:10 so that was weird 05:26:30 Japanese pronunciation of kanji is similar to the Mandarin, but the "Japaneseness" is still quite evident 05:26:43 Once you'ev seen a lot of the words next to each other, the patterns are easier to spot 05:26:57 I don't know enough Korean, yet, to say anything similar 05:27:01 *you've 05:27:17 Bike: That's pretty funny about Sejong :D 05:27:32 speaking of korean comics did you see that terrible korean comic 05:27:47 um, i've read a lot of terrible comics from various places 05:27:55 maybe i read whatever you're referring to? it's possible! 05:28:01 @google that terrible korean comic 05:28:02 http://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=350217&no=20&weekday=tue 05:28:03 Title: 2011 미스테리 단편 :: 네이버 만화 05:28:03 -!- hogeyui____ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:28:06 terrible in the sense of unpleasant 05:28:09 i don't recommend it 05:28:10 i'm impressed 05:28:21 Japanese kanji has different reading, kun-yomi, on-yomi, and in one page of the Akagi manga I have even seen a kanji that is using the English reading! 05:28:25 oh is it the horror story one 05:28:33 yes 05:28:52 Ick, that's unpleasant 05:29:24 I didn't know they used the English reading of kanji, ever, but they did just once in Akagi. 05:31:00 it's weird how like every korean webcomic is on naver. whoever runs that's got a pretty good monopoly 05:31:24 Too many pop-scares in that comic 05:32:26 yeah it's pretty mediocre but that's horror for you. 05:34:02 wait the version i saw was in english 05:34:06 is this even the same comic 05:34:11 anyway not reading hth 05:34:16 got it 05:34:27 i;m so fucking helped right now 05:36:06 i don't understand why programmers get paid so much money 05:36:27 Skilled labor? Why do plumbers get paid so much? 05:36:38 because they're covered in shit 05:36:40 how much do plumbers get paid 05:36:56 it's true that most programming is plumbing 05:36:59 kmc: $35-75 05:37:05 per hour 05:37:19 Licensing gets you about double that 05:37:34 what distinguishes the $35/hr plumbers from the $75/hr plumbers 05:37:43 also how easy/hard is it to get 40hrs of work per week 05:37:46 minimalism and craftsmanship 05:38:01 Experience, I guess. I think it's largely an apprenticeship sort of trade 05:38:05 *nod* 05:38:40 i think there have been various proposals to reorganize programming as an apprenticeship sort of trade 05:38:45 i don't know if it's a good idea or not 05:39:08 i do feel like most of the practical stuff I know I've learned on the job rather than in school 05:39:22 but the stuff I learned in school has enriched my life and indirectly makes me better at practical stuff too 05:39:44 i wonder how many people are even qualified to compare and contrast training/certification models 05:39:56 haha 05:40:30 we should find a plumber who dabbles in database programming 05:40:52 probably relatively few 05:40:56 The problem with apprenticeship-style jobs of all sorts is that it's hard to get into. 05:41:02 i guess academia is... sort of apprenticey... 05:41:03 probably almost no intersection with the people who write blog posts about how programmers should be taught / managed / hired 05:41:04 Plumbers usually have plumbers in the family. 05:41:20 -!- hogeyui____ has joined. 05:41:34 Bike: well once you're a tenured professor you aren't getting your hands dirty so much anymore 05:41:36 @google plumbing blog 05:41:39 http://blog.allareaplumbing.net/ 05:41:39 Title: All Area Plumbing Blog - Ask The Plumber Blog | Plumbing Advice | Affordable ... 05:41:42 much of the work is done by the apprentices 05:41:52 kmc: tht's it. we need professors to take up plumbing 05:42:06 i was reflecting earlier on the fact that I don't know a single person who dropped out of grad school and regrets the decision 05:42:20 yeah :/ 05:42:32 which is not to say nobody should do grad school, but if you're on the fence about it then maybe it's not for you 05:42:32 Unless your goal is to be a professor, grad school in CS is almost totally pointless. 05:42:35 like startups! 05:42:38 as someone who's intending to go to grad school it's uh, there's a lot of reasons not to be encouraged 05:42:44 (not that it's in CS) 05:42:45 Gregor: yes, in fact you can do much better research in industry, in many cases 05:42:48 Bike: bio? 05:42:56 weird neurocrap, hopefully 05:43:00 cool 05:43:05 i know someone doing neurocrap at Brown 05:43:15 Math grad school 4 lyfe 05:43:19 ^ 05:43:29 But if you're in math, you can't make anything of your degree at any level. 05:43:31 So why not. 05:43:33 math grad students seem abnormally happy compared to CS or experimental science ones 05:43:37 related: did you know there are articles like "An implantable wireless neural interface for recording cortical circuit dynamics in moving primates" in real journals that you can really read 05:43:42 kmc: it's all the amphetamines 05:43:43 Gregor: are the days of hiring maths students in finance over? 05:43:49 kmc: I am the happiest human being alive. 05:43:50 Bike: fun 05:43:58 http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/10/2/026010 05:44:32 i've heard math grads are different from other grads though 05:44:38 like you don't know what you're going to study, going in 05:44:56 yeah, I'm told that you spend your first few years reading a few of those yellow death books and working all the problems 05:45:17 yellow death? 05:45:18 at which point you know which sub-sub-sub-field of math you want to study, and you find the six people in the world who do the same 05:45:20 Bike: Springers 05:45:28 Springer Verlag Graduate Texts in Mathematics 05:45:36 http://math.arizona.edu/~savitt/GTM.html 05:45:37 oh god, the horror 05:45:37 Bike: That's pretty true. I think I'm going to focus on algebra, but that's pretty vague 05:45:47 and then you just like chill with those six people 05:45:53 I kinda like the GTMs 05:46:00 maybe math should like be split up 05:46:05 it sure seems like there's a lot of it! 05:46:22 and more as quickly as people can think it up 05:46:30 like wtf does an algebraist have to talk about with a dynamicist most of the time 05:46:40 it's like if you grouped ethologists and immunologists together 05:46:40 So much. Calculus taught me that continuous math is weird and unpleasant to me, so everything I like to do now is discrete and perfect and beautiful :D 05:46:50 tsk. continuity 4 lyfe. 05:46:51 Bike: hell, most schools have only a small department of math 05:46:53 Oh by the way guys the Apple keynote at WWDC mentioned some of my stuffs. 05:46:54 So, y'know. 05:46:55 I'm famous. 05:46:57 Just FYI. 05:46:59 our school does it right 05:47:04 Gregor: can i have your autograph 05:47:13 Gregor: the CBC put my name in an article, therefore I'm famous 05:47:13 Bike: $300 05:47:16 in fact, they quoted me 05:47:21 wow, you really are a grad student 05:47:22 I had Dummit for Algebra, so I feel pretty awesome :D 05:47:27 Bike: lol X-D 05:48:16 another real neuroshit paper that's sci-fi as fuck is "Improving brain-machine interface performance by decoding intended future movements" but alas i lack pubmed access 05:48:43 Bike: I think I might have pubmed access 05:48:47 I can check, if you like 05:49:05 or well i guess it's JNE again hm 05:49:17 http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/10/2/026011/ 05:49:30 i wonder how the cyborg monkeys feel about all this 05:57:19 -!- Bamba705 has joined. 05:57:19 Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me 05:57:20 -!- Bamba705 has left. 05:58:21 ya got iBooted 05:58:42 Bike: Sadly, my university's PubMed shit seems to have disappeared :( 05:58:47 o well 05:59:10 thanks anyway, i'll just have to content myself with CPG legs 06:06:42 What on earth is iBooter? 06:08:23 "iBooTer is the one of the best Booters on the internet. Cheap & Great attack strength with 24/7 Support!! So come join the Family" i'm excited 06:08:31 Nevermind, Had to go to their terms of service to figure out what the hell service they offer. 06:09:16 Also, for those prices I hope they actually deliver 06:13:58 -!- sprockle_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:17:42 kmc: itym chiiiiiiiiip hth 06:17:52 ;_; 06:21:57 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:55:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38). 07:23:05 -!- kmc has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU. 07:23:20 -!- kmc has set topic: опасное безумие | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric | SEUTA KEULAEPEUTEU | nid wyf yn y swyddfa. 07:33:56 -!- augur has joined. 07:45:19 -!- nooodl has joined. 07:57:28 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:08:14 -!- nooga has joined. 08:12:41 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 08:12:57 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Buhnana). 08:34:27 -!- `0x00 has joined. 08:36:50 Oh by the way guys the Apple keynote at WWDC mentioned some of my stuffs. <-- what kind of stuffs? 08:52:46 -!- mnoqy has joined. 09:14:57 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:40:18 -!- VGFAA778 has joined. 09:40:18 Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? Join iBooter ! ibooter.me 09:40:18 -!- VGFAA778 has left. 09:41:52 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:44:59 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:45:23 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 09:47:14 Want to take someone's offline friends? Just murder them and their friends will be all yours: that's how it works. 09:47:15 fungot: Want to take someone offline Friends, Game Servers, Website? 09:47:15 olsner: but, it's this crazy/ wacky issue settled first, but it's a more familiar feeling, but never one to believe in love at all? is that the story? 09:49:18 -!- VGFAA666 has joined. 09:49:18 -!- VGFAA666 has left. 09:50:35 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:50:58 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 10:17:39 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:18:48 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:43:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:59:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:03:05 so does anyone know the limit of (1/e)x^e as e -> 0 for positive x? i'm thinking it's ln x but i'm not sure 11:03:44 -!- sacje has quit (Quit: sacje). 11:05:34 wolfram alpha says it's infinity from positive direction, -inf from negative? 11:05:54 and the series expansion is 1/c + log(x) + c/2 * log(x)^2 + O(c^2) 11:05:59 so I guess that basically reduces to 1/c 11:08:10 what's 11:08:10 c 11:08:15 oh, right 11:08:16 wait 11:08:19 what is c 11:08:56 oh oops 11:08:57 I replaced e with 11:08:59 *e with c 11:09:04 because it thought e was the constant -_- 11:09:05 (i got that expression by integrating x^(e-1) on the assumption that integration was continuous fwiw) 11:10:03 so I did um... 1/c * x^c as c->0 11:10:43 that log x term in the series expansion looks tantalising though 11:25:22 -!- Taneb has joined. 11:26:22 -!- itsy has joined. 11:47:03 -!- Koen_ has joined. 12:05:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:06:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:06:53 oh, wait 12:07:20 when x=e (the actual constant, that is) the limit isn't well-defined 12:07:31 so clearly it's not log e 12:08:23 it's 1/e + log(x) so it's not well defined to begin with is it? 12:08:28 since 1/0 is well yeah 12:08:51 yes 12:09:43 the log(x) would be swamped, I'd think 12:10:46 Should I buy Scrolls? 12:12:22 As in the game 12:12:31 Not as in bits of paper 12:12:56 "We do not want to be the first software in history to be delayed due to a dwindling supply of cats" -- apple at wwdc 12:13:07 finally apple tackles the real issues 12:15:15 That seems to be exactly the opposite problem Bay 12 games is facing 12:19:35 Taneb, imo no 12:19:49 have i not impressed the awfulness of mojang upon you 12:22:32 Phantom_Hoover, you've impressed the awfulness of their coding style upon be sufficiently to deter me from applying to work for Mojang as a programmer 12:22:39 ^style ct 12:22:39 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 12:22:41 fungot: Will you, yourself, bring an end to all of this? 12:22:41 fizzie: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine! 12:22:43 And the quality of planning of Notch 12:22:53 Oh, I forgot to tell the bestest thing! 12:23:01 But seeing as Notch had little contribution to Scrolls... 12:23:43 Yesterday, in Lugano, when we went to the hotel to pick up our luggage, an Indian-looking woman came to me and asked if I was "the creator of Minecraft"; apparently her son was completely convinced I was. 12:23:59 Though I don't look at all like Notch, except for having a similar hat. 12:24:17 I do (allegedly, anyway) resemble Jeb a bit, though, so maybe it was just a communications problem. 12:24:23 (Not that I'm either of them.) 12:24:46 Perhaps all Scandinavians look alike to "them". 12:25:15 Oh, it was the day before yesterday. Anyway. 12:29:18 doesn't notch wear a fedora 12:32:07 `learn fizzie is the creator of Minecraft. 12:32:15 I knew that. 12:32:28 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:36:58 I don't really know about hats, but I have this thing that's a bit like one, I guess. 13:04:24 -!- nooga has joined. 13:04:56 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:08:02 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:12:17 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 13:15:17 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:19:33 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 13:41:25 -!- k0herence has joined. 13:41:49 -!- k0herence has left. 13:59:14 -!- Taneb has joined. 13:59:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 14:16:44 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:18:44 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 14:27:05 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:37:49 -!- ais523 has quit. 14:57:49 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 15:02:29 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:03:28 -!- Bike has joined. 15:05:49 Today I made a little emacs cheet sheet 15:07:08 Maybe too little 15:07:13 I can barely read it 15:09:02 -!- mnoqy has joined. 15:16:30 you should write it in a text file 15:16:31 with emacs 15:41:32 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 15:47:40 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:48:53 You should configure a key combination in your Emacs to access it. 15:49:10 The key combination should be prominently listed on top of the cheat sheet, since you'll be needing it often. 16:00:27 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 16:01:42 -!- augur_ has joined. 16:04:29 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: requested). 16:08:55 -!- lambdabot has joined. 16:10:37 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:11:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:11:19 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:12:04 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:12:30 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 16:19:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:20:06 -!- Pb has quit (Disconnected by services). 16:21:27 Phantom_Hoover, btw, thanks for your anthracite mod 16:21:43 `thanks anthracite 16:21:45 Thanks, anthracite. Thanthracite. 16:26:11 maybe one day i should flesh that out and balance it (ahahaha) 16:27:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:28:05 did i give you the components that adjusted iron ore distribution, i don't remember 16:35:24 Phantom_Hoover, maybe, I've got loads of iron ore 16:35:36 In fact yes 16:35:49 that really needs rebalancing 16:36:07 -!- `^_^v has joined. 16:36:11 I've made a fortress that's 4 years old without trade 16:36:25 especially the magnetite deposits, those things are way too big to be in every other layer 16:38:29 > 2^28 `mod` 29 16:38:31 1 16:38:38 wait, that's dumb 16:38:43 > 2^14 `mod` 29 16:38:44 28 16:38:48 > 2^4 `mod` 29 16:38:49 16 16:51:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 16:54:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:59:38 http://www.sayitwithbacon.com set fire to america 17:01:51 in canada they have Real Bacon though! 17:14:21 -!- FreeFull has joined. 17:15:45 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: requested). 17:16:32 the world's most tasteful gift 17:16:47 Jacket potato? 17:16:58 yes 17:18:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:19:10 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:20:26 -!- lambdabot has joined. 17:21:05 -!- copumpkin has joined. 17:21:28 <`0x00> this is a cool channel. 17:21:38 <`0x00> i found it randomly. has been around for a while? 17:21:56 `relcome `0x00 17:22:00 ​`0x00: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:22:04 how long is a while 17:22:10 it's been around like a week at least 17:24:05 <`0x00> tnx 17:24:07 * `0x00 reads 17:24:17 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: requested). 17:30:02 -!- lambdabot has joined. 17:31:23 -!- lambdabot has quit (Disconnected by services). 17:33:35 -!- Guest89222 has joined. 17:33:41 -!- Guest89222 has quit (Client Quit). 17:35:14 mnoqy: woow 17:35:17 a week is a long time 17:35:56 yes its pretty amazing 17:36:44 @google 1 week in nanoseconds 17:37:17 @google 1 week in nanoseconds 17:37:24 `frank 1 week -> nanoseconds 17:37:25 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: frank: not found 17:37:34 `frink 1 week -> nanoseconds 17:37:38 what's with you lambdabot 17:37:43 604800000000000 17:37:52 oh lambdabot isn't even in here 17:38:00 it's having issues 17:38:22 I like how my lambdabot /query got messed up and renamed to /query Guestblahblahblah. 17:38:32 it's Cale's fault 17:38:41 he has a cron job or something running the *old* lambdabot 17:38:48 which I then tried to "debug" the L.hs of 17:38:50 for hours 17:38:56 not realising it was the old lambdabot 17:39:09 Messing up my /query isn't a very Caley behavior. 17:39:33 Oops, I just realized I closed my lambdabot window which had my list of suggestions for lambdabot. 17:39:58 you had suggestions? 17:40:10 -!- lambdabot has joined. 17:40:15 Naturally. 17:40:24 like what 17:40:24 People in ##categorytheory were complaining about the absence of lambdabot. 17:40:32 oh, is it not in the join list? 17:40:34 Then add it on? 17:40:34 For some reason I'm not in the admin list... I wonder why. 17:40:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:40:42 ##categorytheory ? 17:40:46 @join ##categorytheory 17:40:58 added it to online.rc too 17:41:01 is that a good channel 17:41:32 a good channel is a dead channel 17:41:33 so yes 17:41:44 > Identity () 17:41:47 Identity {runIdentity = ()} 17:41:48 > In Nothing 17:41:51 In {out = Nothing} 17:41:55 ^ the things I do for you 17:42:10 Other suggestions were to fix the quote thing to be more like HackEgo rather than the nick->quote nonsense. 17:42:27 10:41 -!- `0x00 [~ping@u.nxsh.org] has joined ##categorytheory 17:42:28 10:41 -!- `0x00 [~ping@u.nxsh.org] has left ##categorytheory [] 17:42:30 well, it's nice that you can quote non-IRC things non-awkwardly 17:43:02 ... is just as non-awkward. 17:43:13 saul gorn? 17:43:31 18:43:07 > id18:43:09 No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0) 17:43:32 alt. literally add "SaulGorn says: ..." to the quote database 17:43:35 18:43:09 arising from a use of `M1506157215.show_M1506157215'18:43:09 The type variable `a0' is ambiguous18:43:09 Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)18:43:09 Note: there are several potential instances: 17:43:40 18:43:11 [7 @more lines] 17:43:53 I wonder why ExtendedDefaultingRules aren't firing???? 17:44:00 so why am i not in the @admin list 17:44:01 they fire for > undefined 17:45:30 mnoqy: do you gotta problem with saul gorn 17:46:09 > print 17:46:10 > id 17:46:10 <() -> IO ()> 17:46:12 No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0) 17:46:12 arising from a use ... 17:46:12 i cant look saul gorn up because my dns isnt working 17:46:16 does anyone know why these would differ 17:46:51 maybe one of thos extended defaulting rules isnt extended =enough= 17:46:57 > const 17:46:58 No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable b0) 17:46:58 arising from a use ... 17:47:02 mnoqy: 4.2.2.2, 8.8.8.8 17:47:06 http://128.91.234.106/~rclark/gorn.html 17:47:06 > return 17:47:07 hth 17:47:08 No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable1 m0) 17:47:08 arising from a use... 17:47:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 17:47:15 shachaf: thacchaf 17:47:30 maybe it's the show constraint on print? 17:47:33 Show constraint 17:47:40 > show 17:47:41 <() -> [Char]> 17:47:41 > read 17:47:43 No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0) 17:47:43 arising from a use ... 17:48:09 i think its Show but why 17:48:31 show no!! 17:48:57 this is a good compendium 17:49:00 thanks saul gorn 17:49:06 @quote SaulGorn 17:49:06 SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless. 17:49:15 thanks saul gorn 17:49:38 mnoqy: but 17:49:39 > undefined 17:49:40 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 17:49:41 works 17:49:43 and thats forall a. a 17:49:53 oh hM 17:49:56 > undefined :: a -> a 17:49:57 No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0) 17:49:57 arising from a use ... 17:49:57 maybe because its "wrapped in a print" 17:49:59 ^ 17:50:00 because 17:50:02 its doing 17:50:04 show undefined 17:50:08 so that induces a Show constraint 17:50:10 > undefined :: Show a => a -> a 17:50:10 so the defaulting fires 17:50:13 <() -> ()> 17:50:15 ^^^ 17:50:17 but why 17:50:26 isn't it meant to default everything to ()....... 17:50:31 including things you wanna be Typeable 17:50:32 > undefined :: Typeable a => a -> a 17:50:34 No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0) 17:50:34 arising from a use ... 17:50:35 > undefined :: Typeable a => a 17:50:38 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 17:50:40 ????? 17:50:42 thats not a function 17:50:47 yes 17:50:49 it's intentionally not 17:50:56 uiuaf 17:51:00 itll only do the Show instance for -> if its a function 17:51:04 yes 17:51:05 omg 17:51:09 and the Show instance for -> is what needs typable 17:51:09 you don't understand what i was checking for 17:51:12 ???? 17:51:14 you don't understand what i was checking for. 17:51:25 anyway, my current hypothesis is maybe ExtendedDefaultingRules don't apply to the prerequisites of an instance 17:51:25 but its obvious that itd give an exception???? 17:51:32 no? 17:51:42 I was wondering whether it would default with Typeable there 17:52:09 =/ 17:52:26 > undefined :: () 17:52:28 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 17:52:31 :-( 17:52:43 why is show strict for ()!!!!!!!! 17:53:00 mnoqy: it s better that way........................................... 17:53:22 > absurd 17:53:25 Not in scope: `absurd' 17:53:27 I should add Data.Void. 17:53:52 > ['A'..'Z'] 17:53:54 "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ" 17:54:05 @undefine 17:54:05 Undefined. 17:54:07 wow lambdabot has really gone downhill 17:54:07 > absurd 17:54:10 > view _1 (1,2) 17:54:11 L.hs:96:1: 17:54:11 Data.Void: Can't be safely imported! The module itself isn'... 17:54:12 L.hs:96:1: 17:54:12 Data.Void: Can't be safely imported! The module itself isn'... 17:54:16 omg 17:54:22 @undefine 17:54:22 Undefined. 17:54:33 maybe I should just fix the packages in question. 17:54:39 I think I have commit rights to all of them except parallel. 17:59:52 -!- sprocklem has joined. 18:02:16 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:11:29 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 18:14:44 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:22:13 -!- conehead has joined. 19:03:07 oerjan: hi 19:08:02 hellørjan 19:08:20 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:18:37 -!- kallisti has joined. 19:18:38 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 19:18:38 -!- kallisti has joined. 19:20:51 -!- variable has joined. 19:22:39 Koen_: are you there 19:25:07 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:29:03 > In Nothing 19:29:07 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:29:10 > In Nothing 19:29:14 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:29:17 ugh. 19:29:19 > In Nothing 19:29:21 In {out = Nothing} 19:29:39 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting ++ ")}" in read disgusting 19:29:40 *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 19:29:53 > let foo = In (Just foo) in foo 19:29:56 In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = J... 19:30:09 oh 19:30:12 cool 19:30:16 In (Just ice) 19:30:17 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:21 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:23 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:27 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:29 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:32 FUCK YOYU 19:30:33 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:35 OMG 19:30:36 go to hEL 19:30:37 OMG 19:30:39 oops 19:30:42 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:45 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:46 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:47 fantastic 19:30:48 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:49 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:51 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:52 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:54 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:30:55 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:57 oh hmm 19:30:58 omg 19:30:58 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:30:59 simply fantastic 19:31:00 maybe it's an actual infinite loop 19:31:08 i assign ion to ionvestigate 19:31:11 i can't imagine it not being an actual infinite loop... 19:31:35 btw cycle hth 19:31:43 elliott, have you seen the monstrosities ion attempts with tables 19:31:44 I delegate elliott to ellook at it. 19:31:54 Taneb: yes I get bloody emails about them thanks to edwardk 19:31:57 despite not really caring about tables at all 19:31:59 thedwardk 19:32:00 is the parser expected to be able to read infinitely nested text 19:32:16 I would like it to 19:32:22 because it'd be the super-cute's 19:32:31 ur a reek 19:32:37 > read "In {out = poo" :: Mu () 19:32:38 Kind mis-match 19:32:38 The first argument of `Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste... 19:32:42 lol 19:32:45 > read "In {out = poo" :: Mu Maybe 19:32:48 In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 19:32:55 > read "In {out = Just (poo" :: Mu Maybe 19:32:58 In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 19:33:03 > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe 19:33:07 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:33:08 > read ("In {out = " ++ repeat ' ') :: My Maybe 19:33:10 what's Mu 19:33:10 wat 19:33:12 Not in scope: type constructor or class `My' 19:33:12 Perhaps you meant `Mu' (impor... 19:33:15 > In (Just (In Nothing)) 19:33:16 > read ("In {out = " ++ repeat ' ') :: Mu Maybe 19:33:18 In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})} 19:33:20 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:33:21 :t In 19:33:22 f (Mu f) -> Mu f 19:33:26 > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe 19:33:27 ??? how 19:33:30 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:33:32 > read "In {out = Just (In Nothing)}" :: Mu Maybe 19:33:36 In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 19:33:41 @src Mu 19:33:41 newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) } 19:33:50 -!- `0x00 has quit (Quit: Reconnecting). 19:33:57 -!- `0x00 has joined. 19:33:57 > read "In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})}" :: Mu Maybe 19:34:00 In {out = Just (In {out = Nothing})} 19:34:06 > read "In {out = Just (In {out = " :: Mu Maybe 19:34:10 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:34:14 > read "In {out = Just (In {out = " :: Mu Maybe 19:34:17 In {out = *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 19:34:20 elliott, how would that ever parse 19:34:21 @wa sqrt 4 19:34:23 No match for "sqrt". 19:34:23 *** "4" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 19:34:23 4 19:34:23 adj 1: being one more than three [syn: {four}, {4}, {iv}] 19:34:23 n 1: the cardinal number that is the sum of three and one [syn: 19:34:25 er. 19:34:25 {four}, {4}, {IV}, {tetrad}, {quatern}, {quaternion}, 19:34:25 nooodl: it could partially parse 19:34:26 > sqrt 4 19:34:27 {quaternary}, {quaternity}, {quartet}, {quadruplet}, 19:34:28 -!- `0x00 has quit (Changing host). 19:34:28 -!- `0x00 has joined. 19:34:29 {foursome}, {Little Joe}] 19:34:31 2.0 19:34:35 oh i see 19:34:42 but it's too strict 19:34:46 what did i do wrong :< 19:34:47 so i can't do my silly infinitely long read 19:34:54 Bike: it answered 19:34:56 "2.0" 19:35:18 -!- Bike_ has joined. 19:35:21 > read $ "[" ++ cycle "1," 19:35:22 *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 19:35:29 > sqrt 4 19:35:30 2.0 19:35:34 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 19:35:39 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 19:35:58 > let x = sqrt (2 + x) in x 19:36:02 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:36:05 elliott: fix 19:36:22 > read "[1,2]" 19:36:23 *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse 19:36:30 oh i need to... type it... 19:36:31 wow this is awesome. 19:36:37 that defaults to () 19:36:44 Bike: this ain't mathematica boy 19:36:46 > read "In {out = \"shake it all about\"}" :: Mu String 19:36:47 Kind mis-match 19:36:47 The first argument of `Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Truste... 19:37:03 elliott: literaly angry with rage, here 19:37:27 ramanujan "not good enough for you"??? 19:37:40 > read $ "[" ++ cycle "1," :: [Int] 19:37:44 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:37:46 sad 19:38:29 > runIdentity $ read "Identity {runIdentity = ()}" 19:38:32 () 19:38:33 Bike: btw I bet you could make a really evil type that let you do that sqrt (2 + x) thing 19:38:37 the idea is 19:38:40 s/ $// 19:38:50 use observable sharing to build up an expression graph 19:39:02 you realize x is just two right 19:39:05 use a symbolic representation like the simple-reflect trick for the rest: 19:39:06 > 2 + x 19:39:09 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:39:12 um. 19:39:13 awesome 19:39:13 > 2 + x 19:39:14 > read "Identity {runIdentity = ()}" :: Identity () 19:39:15 2 + x 19:39:17 and then solve the whole thing as an equation in the Show instance 19:39:17 Identity {runIdentity = ()} 19:39:24 so that you could input let x = sqrt (2 + x) in x and get 2.0 out 19:39:35 that sounds idiotic, so, let's see it 19:39:35 in fact, I almost want to try. 19:39:49 you could even ship off the equations to satisfy to Maxima or whatever 19:39:56 lol 19:40:13 you don't understand how tempting this is 19:40:23 do it!! 19:40:29 and then /cs clear users in #haskell 19:40:53 -!- sacje has joined. 19:41:41 by the way, the reason i thought it wasn't working is because my connection died in such a way that i didn't receive any messages after lambdabot's sourcing Mu 19:41:42 i'm literally giggling over having this idea 19:42:02 so i'm pretty confused about how that got into the log and your client without me getting 2.0 back? fuck this connection is what i'm saying 19:43:50 Hang on, elliott is running lambdabot 19:43:54 You know what this means 19:44:42 i don't :-( 19:44:45 so speaking of stupid ideas i don't even get how the infinite parse is supposed to work 19:44:50 it doesn't even end with infinite brackets! 19:44:53 offensive imo. 19:45:35 @undefine 19:45:36 Undefined. 19:45:38 Taneb: what does it mean 19:45:50 elliott, are you running lambdabot locally? 19:45:55 uh 19:45:56 why do you ask 19:46:01 Like, on your computer? 19:46:05 why do you ask 19:46:11 Because if you are 19:46:15 > cycle "In {out = Just (" ++ "Nothing" ++ cycle ")}" 19:46:15 "In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = Just (In {out = ... 19:46:16 hth 19:46:17 Then lambdabot is in Hexham! 19:46:20 i am not 19:46:28 Bike: well, you can imagine Mu's parser would be like this: read ("Mu {out = " ++ s ++ "}") = Mu {out = read s} 19:46:29 nooodl: Much better. 19:46:41 WOw imagine lambdabot being in hexham 19:47:05 elliott: uh, yes? 19:47:07 }!!! 19:47:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 19:47:19 Bike: yes but it could "construct the value" and then error out if it doesn't see a } 19:47:37 you can't just allow parsing unterminated expressions you could kill people 19:47:46 it is terminated! 19:47:48 anarchy!! 19:47:54 would you like me to add infinite }s to the end 19:47:58 yes. 19:48:15 (i've already done that!!! ☕) 19:48:18 > let disgusting = "In {out = Just (" ++ disgusting ++ ")}" in read disgusting :: Mu Maybe 19:48:22 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 19:48:23 see 19:48:26 fucking broken 19:48:33 that's terrible :( 19:50:39 > reduction (2*x + 0 + 0*y / g z) 19:50:42 [2 * x + 0 + 0 * y / g z] 19:50:45 hm. 19:50:53 that supposed to simplify the expression? 19:51:44 yes 19:51:47 > reduction (0 + 0 + x) 19:51:49 [0 + 0 + x,0 + x] 19:51:53 it shows steps 19:51:56 Huh 19:51:56 looks like it's not very good at it 19:51:57 it's quite effective 19:51:59 > reduction (x + 0 + 0) 19:52:02 [x + 0 + 0] 19:52:04 lol 19:52:04 I've had a Tumblr account for a whole year 19:52:16 Bike: anyway, you've got me thinking now 19:52:18 > reduction (3 + 4 + x) 19:52:19 [3 + 4 + x,7 + x] 19:52:21 elliott: sorry 19:52:30 ok so it folds constants but doesn't eliminate identities 19:52:30 Bike: this thing could turn your expressions into arbitrary trees and then do arbitrary things with them using maxima! 19:52:33 you could even do derivatives 19:52:41 but like 19:52:42 fancy ones. 19:52:43 automatic differentiation is pretty baller 19:52:46 it's not AD 19:52:51 it's symbolic differentiation 19:52:52 woe 19:52:54 AD is way cooler 19:52:57 that's some Weak Shit son 19:53:18 @undefine 19:53:19 Undefined. 19:53:52 "Maxima's ability to solve equations is limited, but progress is being made in this area." 19:53:56 maybe it should shell out to mathematics 19:53:58 *mathematica 19:53:59 good typo 19:55:21 i'm imagining them citing richardson's theorem and just saying why bother 19:56:55 does anyone know any good free as in farts CAS type things 19:56:56 that aren't maxima 19:57:48 is octave good? 19:58:02 oh it's more numerical than CASy huh 19:58:03 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 19:58:29 oh, axiom is suppose dto be good i think? 19:59:02 also it's strongly typed or whatever "good for haskell" 20:01:13 oh man, axiom 20:01:16 i've read some of its manual 20:01:29 they started it in like the 70s and it's entirely written with knuth-style literate programming 20:01:41 it's like it exists outside of time 20:01:44 well what are your options here 20:01:53 knuth weirdness or well have you seen maxima's source 20:02:03 i haven't 20:02:08 btw i am speaking positively of axiom here 20:02:21 oh 20:02:24 hard to tell with you 20:08:01 Octave is like the hippie MATLAB. 20:13:06 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 20:13:08 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 20:15:57 :t sqrt 20:15:57 Floating a => a -> a 20:15:59 @src Floating 20:15:59 class (Fractional a) => Floating a where 20:15:59 pi :: a 20:16:00 exp, log, sqrt, sin, cos, tan :: a -> a 20:16:00 asin, acos, atan, sinh, cosh, tanh, asinh, acosh, atanh :: a -> a 20:16:00 (**), logBase :: a -> a -> a 20:16:07 @src Num 20:16:07 class (Eq a, Show a) => Num a where 20:16:07 (+), (-), (*) :: a -> a -> a 20:16:07 negate, abs, signum :: a -> a 20:16:08 fromInteger :: Integer -> a 20:17:31 @src Fractional 20:17:31 class (Num a) => Fractional a where 20:17:31 (/) :: a -> a -> a 20:17:31 recip :: a -> a 20:17:31 fromRational :: Rational -> a 20:20:00 -!- copumpkin has joined. 20:20:17 @src Applicative 20:20:17 class Functor f => Applicative f where 20:20:17 pure :: a -> f a 20:20:17 (<*>) :: f (a -> b) -> f a -> f b 20:20:32 Is this a proper @src? 20:20:43 @src F.Foldable 20:20:43 Source not found. Are you on drugs? 20:20:47 @src Foldable 20:20:47 Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it. 20:20:55 quality 20:21:03 > F.foldMap (:[]) "hello" 20:21:04 "hello" 20:24:02 Taneb: no 20:24:19 :_ 20:24:51 enhancements have to wait for me to implement this hack for Bike 20:25:02 i am ecstatic 20:31:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:34:45 -!- kallisti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:36:29 jeg er ikke til stede for tiden. vennligst legg igjen beskjed etter pipetonen. 20:43:35 -!- redrebelion has joined. 20:44:22 hi 20:47:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ribbit). 20:48:35 -!- redrebelion has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:12:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:15:23 http://toys.usvsth3m.com/edballs/ 21:16:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 21:16:31 was that sound used in some windows 98 game 21:17:15 kmc: i got 0.317 21:17:18 Bike: itw as one of the startup ones i think 21:17:27 Bike: i think so yes 21:22:31 04:44:31: I don't think anyone wants a deadfish impl. in a proprietary language <-- make it a top secret language and we're talking 21:23:16 anyway my rank was Ed Balls so i think that's a success 21:23:53 0.422 :( 21:24:11 kmc: lol at that haskell thing btw 21:24:54 elliott, how 21:25:02 U+2F31D COMBINING BRITISH ACCENT <-- fascinating old chap 21:25:10 elliott's a freak man 21:25:45 ⎝oerjan 21:26:01 Bike: type fast 21:26:03 also you can omit the caps 21:26:07 ^ my cheat 21:26:14 elliott pro ballsing 21:26:30 also you can press and then ^V 21:26:36 ☝ my cheat 21:26:42 0.397 now 21:26:45 my cheat is 21:26:47 I got 0.438 ... 21:26:48 s/and/e and/ 21:26:48 who's ed balls? 21:26:52 hit e + d + space all together 21:26:53 an MP 21:26:56 until it works 21:26:58 he tweeted "Ed Balls" once 21:27:07 then type "balls" really quickly 21:27:09 this became a joke in traditional internet fashion 21:27:25 that's not a very good joke 21:27:27 geez, that name 21:27:30 in traditional internet fashion 21:27:35 that reminds me of the founder of Dick's Sporting Goods 21:27:37 "Dick Stack" 21:27:42 evening 21:28:17 that reminds me of the person who runs lambdabot 21:28:28 ok no that's mean i'll stop 21:28:29 Elliott Dickface 21:28:31 which haskell thing Bike 21:28:38 the nodejs thing 21:28:41 Fiora, he was Minister for Education under Gordon Brown's government and is now I think Shadow Chancellor, a position a lot less awesome or evil than it sounds 21:28:44 Ed Balls isn't just an MP, he's the /SHADOW CHANCELLOR/ 21:28:50 oh dang 21:28:57 Shadow Chancellor sounds like a position in some dark cult XD 21:29:00 i'm sorry for disrespecting the balls, ed balls 21:29:01 yep 21:29:08 The... the shadow chancellor wishes to speak with you, my liege. 21:29:11 the shadow chancellor isthe opposition party's chancellor right 21:29:17 much cooler title than the actual position deserves 21:29:18 right 21:29:25 his job is to complain about whatever the real chancellor is doing 21:29:39 chancellor being the person in charge of money 21:30:06 reminds me of 21:30:08 Bqhatevwr 21:30:11 "shadow chancellor" sounds like a position sauron would hold 21:30:41 isn't it like, the position he /did/ hold 21:30:55 hi Koen_ a while ago i was wondering where are the glottal stops in the pronunciation of "d'A Z" 21:31:03 or was that saruman guess what books i haven't read 21:31:13 de A à Z 21:31:27 I'd say before every syllable nooodl 21:31:40 de 'A 'à Z 21:32:10 though I guess no one would notice if you didn't stop before the first A 21:32:12 'de 'A 'à 'Z 21:32:21 'deA 'à 'Z 21:32:40 deäáz 21:32:50 deäáz of our lives 21:32:51 yeah that's a little bit weird 21:33:10 *deäàz 21:35:04 now I'm starting to think you're breton olsner 21:35:16 btw I'm considering calling my OS thingy ꙮS 21:35:39 olsner: But then you'll have to add UTF-8 support 21:35:53 please tell me the little square I can't read isn't the super-seven-eye symbol 21:35:53 nah, I just have to invent an encoding of my own 21:36:01 or just Unicode support 21:36:07 Koen_: it is 21:36:31 the most rare and exotic glyph variant of Cyrillic letter O 21:36:42 yes, the MOST RARE 21:36:47 see, I don't need to have any kind of support to know the name of your os 21:36:57 kmc: itym Cyrillic letter О 21:37:01 hth 21:37:22 the "kmc encoding": just assume all the squares are eyes, staring 21:37:32 kmc: I sort of want a citation for that, detailing the rarity and exoticism of cyrillic glyph variants 21:37:36 shachaf: That’s redundant. 21:37:39 olsner: me too 21:37:44 "how would you like your Cyrillic O?" "very rare, please" 21:37:51 you could look through all of http://old.stsl.ru/manuscripts/ 21:37:52 shachaf: Also, that’s what kmc said, isn’t it? 21:37:52 hm 21:37:58 Is it? 21:38:02 i suppose at some point you'd run into the glagolithic transition 21:38:02 > "Cyrillic letter O" 21:38:04 "Cyrillic letter O" 21:38:08 > "Cyrillic letter О" 21:38:09 "Cyrillic letter \1054" 21:38:14 I think you should call your OS ˿ѿď瑿컿 21:38:18 wait 21:38:20 But that's jus tme 21:38:29 Oh, sorry. I failed at copying from kmc’s line and still had your О in the clipboard. 21:38:38 is the name of the unicode character "Cyrillic letter O" or ""Cyrillic letter О" 21:38:43 this is seriously going to bother me 21:38:45 the former 21:38:49 Unicode character names are ASCII 21:38:56 \rainbow{bootstrapping} 21:39:00 weird 21:39:07 i liked the proposal that they should be allowed to use any character that comes before that character 21:39:08 I prefer to think of them as "restricted Unicode". 21:39:11 There’s \rainbow{}? 21:39:17 Or maybe ၔၕၦၧգལā 21:39:19 ion: it's a convention from another channel 21:39:20 if you're kmc 21:39:30 kmc.tex 21:39:32 i think there is an irssi plugin that actually produces rainbows 21:39:36 but people got annoyed at them 21:39:37 That proposal is problematic because it gives a preference to lower codepoints. 21:39:39 heh 21:39:48 FreeFull: what's that, most of the letters are missing in my fonts :/ 21:39:50 I don't know about a plugin, but I have a toilet alias for it 21:39:59 They should be allowed to use any character that cames after that character. 21:40:01 toilet alias 21:40:05 kmc: Just random shit 21:40:10 -_- 21:40:26 ^rainbow I herd there's also a bot 21:40:27 I herd there's also a bot 21:40:37 http://caca.zoy.org/wiki/toilet 21:40:57 toilet is a figlet replacement 21:41:02 ^rainbow boostrapping 21:41:02 boostrapping 21:41:23 I think they should be able to use any character that doesn't produce loops in the dependency graph, the ordering of characters should not be relevant to their description 21:41:28 "Rainbow bootstrapping" is a fancy name for rain. 21:41:55 I think my rainbow looks better than yours 21:42:03 (err, does unicode describe "characters" or some other term?) 21:42:32 FreeFull: ^rainbow rainbow isn't designed, though, it's just consecutive colors for ease of implementation. 21:42:47 olsner: imo allow fixpoints!!! 21:43:18 olsner: Code points are what many of the lists are made of, at least. 21:43:25 Bike: yes, that was my original thought actually, anything that brings the unicode standard to a fix point should be ok 21:43:46 you can download the Unicode Character Database so I guess they are 'characters' 21:43:58 "Character" in Unicode means: "(1) The smallest component of written language that has semantic value; refers to the abstract meaning and/or shape, rather than a specific shape (see also glyph), though in code tables some form of visual representation is essential for the reader’s understanding. (2) Synonym for abstract character. (3) The basic unit of encoding for the Unicode character ... 21:44:04 ... encoding. (4) The English name for the ideographic written elements of Chinese origin. [See ideograph (2).]" 21:44:17 uhhhh characters have semantics now? 21:44:23 a lot of those 'characters' are not part of written language though 21:44:28 The character database is presumably using sense (3). 21:44:50 would be nice if unicode (or something like "does the unicode character descriptions reach a fixed point") was undecidable 21:44:56 Bike: they can be assigned semantics... e.g. mathematical bold and italic are different characters because maths papers define them to mean different things, because fuck maths 21:45:11 The difference from code point seems to be that all numbers from 0 to 0x10ffff are code points, but not of them are assigned to characters. 21:45:54 kmc: but in natural language they barely even define phonemics, i mean 21:46:14 fizzie: are the values corresponding to UTF-16 surrogate pair code units considered to be code points in Unicode? 21:46:30 yeah 21:46:38 kmc: Apparently. ("Code Point. (1) Any value in the Unicode codespace; that is, the range of integers from 0 to 10FFFF16. (See definition D10 in Section 3.4, Characters and Encoding.)") 21:46:55 (That 16 is a subscript.) 21:47:38 There are also seven fundamental classes of code points -- Graphic, Format, Control, Private-Use, Surrogate, Noncharacter, Reserved. 21:49:21 > 0x10FFFF16 21:49:22 285212438 21:49:47 > 0x1000000000000000000000 21:49:48 19342813113834066795298816 21:50:08 @hoogle Map k a -> k -> Bool 21:50:09 Data.Map.Lazy member :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool 21:50:10 Data.Map.Strict member :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool 21:50:10 Data.Map.Lazy notMember :: Ord k => k -> Map k a -> Bool 21:50:28 what's notMember for exactly 21:50:38 checking if a key isn't a member hth 21:51:02 gotcha 21:51:13 so you can write «x `notMember` y» instead of «not (x `member` y)» and it's a little bit nicer I guess 21:51:35 Map kak bool 21:51:44 or better yet «map (`notMember` y)» vs «map (not . (`member` y))» 21:51:59 shachaf: always so hthelpful 21:53:12 @hoogle (k -> k') -> Map k a -> Map k' a 21:53:12 Data.Map.Lazy mapKeysMonotonic :: (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a 21:53:12 Data.Map.Strict mapKeysMonotonic :: (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a 21:53:12 Data.Map.Lazy mapKeys :: Ord k2 => (k1 -> k2) -> Map k1 a -> Map k2 a 21:53:30 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:54:43 @hoogle olsner 21:54:44 No results found 21:54:49 @hoogle elliott 21:54:49 No results found 21:54:51 ): 21:55:18 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:59:30 FreeFull: I'm not a function, hth 22:00:59 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:01:10 -!- EgoBot has joined. 22:01:14 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 22:01:14 -!- shachaf_ has quit (Changing host). 22:01:14 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 22:01:16 olsner: You should be 22:01:29 -!- shachaf has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:01:34 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf. 22:09:55 -!- parapooper has joined. 22:11:16 -!- parapooper has left. 22:11:30 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:15:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:26:24 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:30:23 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:31:08 -!- mnoqy has joined. 22:33:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:37:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot again?!). 22:45:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:49:32 kmc: once upon a time i installed a shareware program whose purpose was to reverse strings 22:49:41 i think it was reasonably popular 22:49:51 ? 22:49:56 Oo 22:50:10 the good old days of rtl text 22:50:41 (The program would reverse text as you copy it into the clipboard or something like that.) 22:51:12 fahcahs 22:51:32 sounds extremely useful if you copy links 22:51:49 oerjan: more like ףחש 22:52:05 (Which shows up correctly for me because my terminal doesn't handle RTL text.) 22:52:21 is that fchsh or shchf? 22:54:13 the people of israel have decided: vowels are for fucking wusses 22:55:02 like many non-english languages they have learned to encode information in diacritics 22:55:11 vowels are optional 22:55:24 שַׁחַף hth 22:56:31 (That ׁ indicates that the ש is a sh and not a s. hth) 22:56:42 I wonder which direction a) that was rendered, b) should've been rendered, or c) should be read 22:57:10 are there supposed to be circles with the vowel signs or is my terminal broken for them 22:57:10 the sh appaeared at the end of the line, so I'm guessing backwards 22:57:50 olsner: The three letters are: 22:57:51 (almost certainly broken since the circles make the consonants even harder to see 22:57:54 ש 22:57:54 ח 22:57:55 ף 22:57:57 ) 22:58:04 nice capture, oerjan 22:58:05 They should be written from right to left. 22:58:10 help 22:58:14 @slap oerjan 22:58:14 * lambdabot orders her trained monkeys to punch oerjan 22:58:33 i got me some hebrew letters! 22:58:52 shachaf: is that from right to wrong or from wrong to right? 22:59:05 From least to best. 22:59:19 (We're talking about coasts of the US now.) 22:59:26 from worst to most? 22:59:56 a wise man once said the west is the best 23:02:09 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:03:43 how wise of him 23:04:13 fungot: where is the west and the best? are they in fact the same? 23:04:13 olsner: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale? 23:09:37 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:19:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:20:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:27:48 hm moving the new laptop to the left end of the table made eating pizza too complicated 23:29:03 oerjan world problems 23:29:26 we all have pizza problems, man. we all do 23:31:55 because i use my right hand on the touchpad, i have to eat pizza with the left, but now there was nowhere to put it. (yes, i already have moved the laptop out of the way) 23:35:12 also the reason i moved the laptop to the left is because the cord is shorter than the old one, and plugs in on the left, so it's uncomfortable to have it where the old one was when plugged in. 23:36:03 also oerjan world problems (including the irony) seems to be me in a nutshell. 23:36:28 I could easily create something like monad syntax in Rebol... but I think it would be inefficient 23:36:46 "monad syntax"? 23:36:56 A do notation equivalent 23:37:15 rules of programming 1) write in Haskell 2) write beautiful code, without regard to efficiency 3) optomize ONLY as needed 23:37:18 hth 23:37:39 The design I'm thinking of would put the do notation processing inside the function passed to bind... 23:37:46 Each time bind is used 23:39:11 well don't do that then hth 23:41:41 But it's the easiest thing to di 23:41:42 do 23:41:58 > fix ("hth "++) 23:41:59 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:42:01 And not sure how else to do it, without making the syntax more unreboly than it currently is 23:42:37 FreeFull: now i'm reading it as "hadith" 23:42:37 unreboly? 23:43:06 runreholy 23:44:13 > cycle "hth " 23:44:14 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:45:03 hadi to help 23:45:16 oerjan: that hardly seems very functional! 23:45:41 > concatMap (const "hth ") [1..] 23:45:42 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:46:00 Bike: but it's very cyclic! 23:46:19 > [1..] >>= const "hth " 23:46:19 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:46:33 oerjan: you could stand to learn a thing or two from freefull here. 23:46:51 Slightly annoying to specify which locals you want to use at the beginning of the function. I mean, you don't _have_ to, but I gather it's the most convenient thing to do 23:46:59 that's not even constant memory! 23:47:08 > const "hth " <$> [1..] 23:47:09 ["hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth ","hth... 23:47:15 Woops, that one's wrong 23:47:31 > const "hth " <$> [1..] >>= id 23:47:31 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:47:43 > [1..]>>"hth " 23:47:44 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:47:55 oerjan: Psh, too simple 23:48:01 How will anyone know what that code does 23:48:10 > [1..] *> "hth " 23:48:11 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:48:16 can you do it without the explicit space? that is with "hth" instead of "hth " 23:48:47 Sure 23:49:04 > unwords $ fix ("hth":) 23:49:05 "hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth hth ht... 23:49:06 :t (*>) 23:49:07 Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f b 23:49:10 cool 23:50:41 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 23:51:45 Koen_: How's that? 23:51:56 yup it's good 23:53:21 > fix \x -> 2 + sqrt x 23:53:22 :1:5: parse error on input `\' 23:53:30 > fix (\x -> 2 + sqrt x) 23:53:34 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 23:53:41 i just can't win ;_; 23:54:14 Bike: try iterate 23:54:27 it's just not the same man 23:56:16 I do believe you can implement iterate in terms of fix 23:56:52 If this works I will gibber insanely 23:57:03 (If it doesn't work I will also gibber insanely) 23:57:23 ☺ 23:58:02 we're used to it 23:59:15 > let iterate' f a = fix (\x -> f a : map f x) in iterate' (+3) 0 23:59:16 [3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39,42,45,48,51,54,57,60,63,66,69,72,75,78... 23:59:25 Wait, not quite the same 23:59:43 > let iterate' f a = fix (\x -> a : map f x) in iterate' (+3) 0 23:59:43 [0,3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39,42,45,48,51,54,57,60,63,66,69,72,75,... 23:59:45 There 23:59:50 ma: do/next next assigns 'next-assigns 23:59:59 This is not really the most readable code I have ever written