00:00:00 Also two character names that are the same as country codes are forbidden 00:00:01 hmm 00:00:36 -!- PrincessKaDenza has changed nick to comex. 00:02:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:06:59 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 00:13:22 `quote ghostly 00:13:24 420) monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly 00:13:39 420 quote itidus20 every day 00:13:50 i like it when words line up on consecutive lines ~by accident~ 00:14:07 me too 00:14:09 day up 00:14:30 it when words line up on consecutive lines ~by accident~ is my worst nemesis 00:14:33 there should be an irssi plugin that adjusts text to make this happen 00:14:49 i forgot what this is called in typesetting 00:14:53 related to but distinct from rivers and lakes 00:14:57 "dicking around" 00:15:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: copumpkin). 00:16:31 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:22:57 What Bike said 00:27:59 -!- ais523 has quit. 00:38:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:03:38 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:13:52 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:26:43 kmc: do you have any submissions to the topic-for-when-the-wsj-guy-comes competition 01:32:58 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:33:08 Sgeo: What happened to the `olist update scheduled for Monday? 01:33:36 I was in a WSJ article about Wikicities, then Wikicities turned evil. If I'm in a WSJ article about #esoteric, does this mean #esoteric is going to turn evil? 01:33:37 -!- carado has joined. 01:34:07 shachaf, you should post that question on the GiantITP forums. I'm sure it will be just fine asking that sort of question there. 01:34:09 #esoteric is beyond good and evil 01:34:09 Nothing here 01:34:11 Again and again. 01:34:30 DO IT 01:34:30 Sgeo: Why ask it at the forums when I can ask it at the source? 01:34:45 whoa, dude, you have an account there 01:34:57 You want an `olist, have a meaningless `olist 01:34:58 `olist 01:35:01 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly 01:35:22 (Note for innocent victims: Do not check OOTS because of that `olist) 01:35:22 ...No, I want an update. 01:35:31 It's still at 890! You liar! 01:35:37 You should make sure it's updated first. 01:38:08 How many Order of the Stick fans don't play D&D? I don't (although I do play NetHack sometimes, and am thoroughly spoiled, and since NetHack has D&D as one source of inspiration, it's not like I'm completely unaware of D&D mechanics and stuff.) Anyone who was completely unaware of D&D mechanics before OotS? 01:38:28 -!- carado has quit (Client Quit). 01:38:54 sounds like a grea tforum 01:39:39 shachaf, I see an update 01:39:40 http://i.imgur.com/lJZUMe8.png 01:40:29 Sgeo: wow i must be having cache problems like oerjan 01:40:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:46:50 -!- carado has joined. 01:50:54 I have 502 followers on Twitter 01:51:18 Or, well, my @oots_update account does. 01:52:36 wow and you were in the wsj 01:52:39 can i have your autograph 01:53:42 why is there an oots_update account 01:54:02 why not just subscribe to RichBurlew 01:54:17 shachaf, because oots_update was created before RichBurlew 01:54:27 yes but why is oots_update still functional 01:54:51 Meh, does it really make sense to force people to switch? 01:55:12 Lemme check if I at least tweeted about it 01:55:28 "Rich Burlew is on Twitter! @RichBurlew" 01:55:51 Which, I guess isn't quite the same as "You don't need to follow me anymore, you can just follow @RichBurlew" 01:56:02 You should start retweeterizing his tweeterees. 01:56:11 elliott: is the WSJ guy actually going to come? 01:56:43 kmc: so sez chris 01:57:02 22:55:04 oh! oh! got an email response back 01:57:04 22:55:38 "A chat on #esoteric works for me." 01:57:06 22:55:48 i need a drink 01:57:09 #esoteric is beyond good and evil <--- beyond 1984, beyond 2001, beyond love, beyond death 01:57:12 elliott: wowow 01:57:29 23:06:40 oh, and his days are tues, weds, thurs this week. 01:57:43 the main variable here is of course zzo38's availability 01:57:45 kmc: my reaction also 01:58:20 shachaf, also, if someone is following both me and oots_update but not RichBurlew that may indicate to me that they are following/stalking me specifically even with the oots_update follow 01:58:52 I read twatter sometimes 01:58:53 sometimes I even twaat 01:59:16 i mostly follow twitters because it's taken me forever to find good biology blogs 01:59:29 btw did you know that turing's most cited paper is the biology one 01:59:31 kinda weird 01:59:40 biology one? 02:00:03 twitter : tweet :: twatter : twuut 02:00:05 after the war he kinda turned to biochemistry 02:00:20 he wrote a paper "The Chemical Basis of Morphogenesis" about how shape is developed by growing organisms 02:00:46 is it... correct 02:01:21 well it's pretty abstract, as you might expect from a bio paper that involves considerations of symmetry-preserving transformations 02:02:01 http://zzo38computer.org/zcomp/zcomp.sql The V_QUALIFY trigger seems to be too long; do you want to fix it? 02:02:11 oh jesus, it has 7136 cites 02:02:15 I think most people know that Einstein got his nobel prize for the work on the photoelectric effect 02:02:26 Bike: is that a lot 02:02:28 Bike: I am available now, of course. 02:02:30 the photoelectric effect is pretty baller as far as i'm concerned 02:02:42 shachaf: uh. yes? 02:02:55 i know someone whose paper has ~3000 citations or something 02:02:59 I mean, it's not unheard of, but it's a lot more than the average. 02:03:01 that's like being half-turing!! 02:03:45 Ok, that gave me a WTF moment for a second 02:03:46 "Oprah Winfrey ‏ Verified account @Oprah 02:03:46 Followed by Seth Gold" 02:03:59 Some DJ named Seth Gold 02:04:02 Maybe I can try to fix it something else, such as making a table to store those results and then to do that instead, since I would need to repeat mostly the same V_QUALIFY trigger for each field of the VOTE table 02:04:05 http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=14076813763086182113 02:04:21 zzo38: Are you available Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday? 02:04:22 I don't actually remember what his thesis was. something something with applications to the longgermannameproblem 02:04:29 And that there doesn't seems the way to make a field name as a parameter 02:04:34 the title of it, i mean 02:04:59 shachaf: Tuesday this week (that is tomorrow), but not all day; I should be available in the evening (my timezone is Pacific) 02:05:31 zzo38: I can tell your timezone is Pacific, because all the cool people have that timezone. 02:06:00 That isn't a very good way to tell. 02:07:17 What's a good way to tell? 02:07:34 By sending a TIME message to me 02:07:41 Or just to ask. 02:07:44 wow let's see here, it's cited by krugman, von neumann, levin, wolfram, kelso, Intanagonwiwat (i don't know who this is but i like their name), lindenmayer (of l-systems), prigogine, and that's about it for name si recognize 02:08:06 what if i cite it 02:08:09 would you recognize me 02:08:28 Probably. 02:08:45 would i recognize you 02:09:03 no 02:09:04 is James Kalenius an actual name that you would use for publishing papers and things 02:10:55 do you dislike it? 02:11:12 FreeFull: i think almost nobody knows that 02:11:32 if you ask the average person what einstein did, they will come up with "E=mc²" and nothing else and probably not know what it means either 02:11:48 maybe I misunderestimate my fellow human beings 02:11:50 no no 02:11:51 You're probably right 02:11:54 einstein didn't pass highschool math 02:11:56 cynic 02:12:00 lern ur history dumass 02:12:29 copumpkin: http://neilcicierega.tumblr.com/post/50354803614 02:12:29 Einstein also said socks get holes in them. 02:12:35 http://25.media.tumblr.com/6f88cbc2ae1fc13e6fa7f1ec07bdd83d/tumblr_mmpzoljQ4N1qzgnzho1_500.png http://25.media.tumblr.com/8bd807033be7887e1d08fb29763ea3b6/tumblr_mmr1tg53J21qzgnzho1_500.jpg 02:13:02 -!- conehead has joined. 02:13:31 Father of animutation 02:13:42 yes! 02:14:21 in his famous "annus mirabilis" papers, einstein showed that flash animations about Shaq Fu could actually be pretty funny 02:14:55 https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/942299_10151934516699466_1761459223_n.jpg 02:15:46 i'm scared shachaf 02:17:49 no, i'm scared shachaf 02:17:52 you're scared Bike 02:18:10 yeah, true 02:18:11 what's that 02:18:14 i hope the WSJ reporter has already joined and is lurking while we talk about them 02:18:17 or is log-reading 02:18:32 Doubtful 02:18:36 I don't think they know what IRC is 02:18:43 but they agreed to it 02:18:58 i assume cpressey gave instructions when he suggested irc as the interview venue 02:19:18 kmc: didnt you read his email 02:19:22 we literally know exactly what he said 02:19:23 Maybe hagb4rd is the reporter. 02:19:33 I'm just saying. 02:19:48 "It should be held on IRC -- in the #esoteric channel on freenode." no instructions 02:20:55 elliott has made an ass out of u and me 02:21:06 )-: 02:21:09 what did i assume 02:21:09 Maybe elliott's the reporter. Maybe I'm the reporter. Maybe we're all the reporter 02:21:32 I am the wall street journal. Hear me 02:21:34 elliott "the reporter" Bike 02:21:35 who will report the reporter 02:21:58 should i tell the reporter that i used copies of WSJ as food for oyster mushrooms 02:22:02 yes 02:22:12 ChanServ is the reporter 02:22:20 "In the first place, for instance, men are more often found standing on their feet than their heads." 02:22:29 do you have the "drugs" ready for our interview 02:22:45 insert hunter s thompson reference 02:22:46 the finest oyster hallucinogens 02:22:59 Sure, the "dogs" are "stuffed" full of the "drugs" 02:22:59 Bike: that sounds like _Mathematics Made Difficult_......... 02:23:02 but it's actually turing?? 02:23:12 'Pleurotus means "side ear", from Greek πλευρή (pleurē), "side"[4] + ὠτός (ōtos), genitive of οὖς (ous), "ear".' 02:23:20 that's the genus of oyster mushrooms 02:23:40 hm should i say my favourite esolang is Esme or that other one 02:23:44 maybe one of NSQX's 02:23:50 i've forgotten what that other one is 02:23:54 oyster mushrooms eat nematodes 02:24:02 shachaf: good book 02:24:10 elliott: snack? 02:24:15 furscript? 02:24:35 all good options 02:24:57 Bike: which one 02:25:03 id like to see a report on fuckfuck 02:25:05 All 02:25:13 the REAL joke: everyone (including me) is going to try too hard to be stupid and it'll end up awkward and unfunny and the journalist will give up and we'll regret being jerks 02:25:24 the real joke is i wont do that 02:25:29 ill play off of you guys trying too hard 02:25:32 thats how itll go down 02:25:51 elliott: oh you put it better. 02:25:58 the real joke is ill sleep through it tho 02:25:58 so 02:26:09 Bike: what did you say 02:26:16 uh i forget 02:26:19 If you can tell me (and everyone else) what time we are supposed to be available on this IRC for this interview, then we can try to do that, please. 02:26:25 let me just consult the loge 02:27:06 oh i said: "it'll probably be boring" 02:27:08 insightful 02:27:37 zzo38: you'll have to ask chris, maybe he will know by tomorrow 02:27:53 because people will try hard to be jerks for about two seconds before remembering that that's actually kind of a boring thing to do 02:28:38 well i mean i'm still going to give nonsense because i literally can't do anything else 02:28:49 but, polite nonsense 02:29:07 Then let's the people who will be not entirely 100% nonsense. 02:29:21 let's the people indeed. i will not be letting myself 02:31:29 so this has to be the first time a journalist has used irc since like 1992 02:36:35 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:37:28 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:37:28 I want to be here for this :( 02:37:42 I'll probably be asleep 02:37:43 you seem sad that you want to be here for this 02:37:53 But you should know what time it is, to do so! 02:38:04 I also want to know what time it should be! 02:38:06 put the time in the topic 02:39:23 What if it's MissPiggy or cheater pulling a prank? 02:39:33 I don't know if either of those two are really the sort 02:39:35 ROBOT HOOOOUSE! 02:44:02 cheaters busy trolling #haskell these days and did you just pick MissPiggy out of a list of banned users or something because what 02:44:51 also do you really think chris wouldn't check the reliability of such an email before putting a response on his website and asking us about it 02:49:56 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:01:56 -!- augur has joined. 03:05:20 elliott, there are banned users besides cheater and MissPiggy? 03:05:45 you realise misspiggy has been back like five times since using that name and isn't banned right 03:06:03 but yes dbelange is banned too 03:06:59 That name sounds vaguely but not fully familiar 03:11:27 MissPiggy is banned? 03:11:35 oh shit, dbelange 03:11:39 all these names from my past 03:11:43 elliott: what was the most recent? 03:11:45 Who was dbelange? 03:12:26 copumpkin: uhhh i think j-invariant or crystal-cola 03:12:36 oh, so not recently :( 03:12:42 I wonder what happened 03:12:45 Sgeo: guy who came here a few times to troll badly 03:12:51 and got banned 03:12:57 coppro's fault or something 03:13:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:13:26 he's a pervasive troll 03:13:28 known for it 03:13:40 Someone by that name was banned on Wikipedia 03:13:44 copumpkin: there was someone in #haskell recently who reminded me of her but it was just a hunch and I've forgotten by now 03:13:46 can't remember who I spoke to who knew him in person, said he was smart but weird and enjoyed trolling way too much 03:14:05 coppro said his university gets complaints from random IRC servers about him or something 03:14:06 there was someone with a mathy sounding name that reminded me 03:14:10 copumpkin: I've met him 03:14:14 elliott: it's true 03:14:23 coppro: have any more color to add? 03:14:25 copumpkin: he's a grad of my school and pops by every now and then 03:14:31 i used to troll /r/atheism 03:14:37 nope, you about summed it up 03:14:39 kmc the hardcore catholic? 03:14:46 lol 03:14:51 last I saw him he was trolling ##math by posting questions taken from /r/math 03:14:56 in the chair behind me 03:15:10 he's now studying symbolic logic somewhere 03:15:16 who was the guy who trolled #haskell by taking GHC bug reports, obfuscating the reproducers, and then asking why the code didn't work 03:15:27 http://www.bitchx.com/log/math-f/math-f-11-Feb-2010/math-f-11-Feb-2010-08.php 03:15:27 haha 03:15:33 i would take that over the usual #haskell trolling 03:15:37 That page is called 'dbelange troll' 03:15:40 kmc: that's clever 03:17:11 i flagged a guy on SO today for asking questions like http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15865631/type-a-is-not-equal-to-type-a-in-haskell-ghci-interpreter 03:17:20 oh i meant http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15815931/haskell-missing-identifier-even-though-its-defined-one-line-above 03:17:23 which is better 03:17:26 wait pokoko222 and MissPiggy are also trolls 03:17:29 is this channel like #troll 03:17:38 MissPiggy wasn't a troll 03:17:40 misspiggy isn't a troll per se 03:17:47 oh 03:17:49 and pokoko was just ridiculously overenthusiastic, I thought 03:18:00 i miss having her around actually 03:18:09 yeah 03:19:11 what did she do 03:19:26 remember badtruffle? what a troublemaker 03:19:29 lol 03:19:37 "it's complicated" 03:19:40 she was pretty knowledgeable but had a really big temper 03:19:49 used to talk a lot in #agda and #epigram 03:20:01 kmc: vixey ring a bell? 03:20:03 soupdragon? 03:20:06 right 03:20:07 had a bajillion names 03:20:25 she got frustrated with almost everyone in #haskell and here and put them on ignore and complained about #haskell people here in stuff and eventually left or got banned for whatever, this happened like two or three times and she'd appear again under another nick months later 03:20:30 it's a shame 03:20:58 i was kind of a jerk to her at some points and i regret it :( 03:21:23 hunt her down and ask her to come back? 03:21:54 what name does she even use these days 03:21:59 it does make sense to get frustrated with almost everyone in #haskell 03:22:05 well I don't know how and it'd feel stalkery, there is http://muaddibspace.blogspot.co.uk/ and http://natural-deductions.blogspot.co.uk/ but they don't have any contact info (though cpressey left a comment trying to get in touch once, I don't know if he got any response) 03:22:09 i don't complain about specific people here very much, though 03:22:13 I think she deleted all her reddit accounts 03:22:45 wasn't she adjunction or something like that 03:22:51 Oh, this is fax? 03:22:53 kmc: by almost everyone I mean incl. regulars, ops and so on 03:23:12 (not that she was entirely wrong about it but it wasn't an ideal way of expressing her irritations) 03:23:31 I can understand getting frustrated with certain #haskell ops. 03:23:39 yeah, like copumpkin 03:23:40 that guy is terrible 03:23:54 copumpkin's great. 03:24:41 #haskell-ops has frustrating people too. for example me. 03:24:49 :) 03:25:12 @quote for.example.me 03:25:12 monochrom says: #haskell-blah has brilliant people too. for example me. 03:25:19 kmc: did shachaf tell you about your moment of fame 03:25:26 there's an email 03:25:41 kmc has a moment of fame? 03:25:50 copumpkin: huh, where? 03:25:55 on coq club 03:26:00 ah 03:26:03 you mean when i quoted him out of context in -ops? 03:26:28 I guess there is a github account with repos too, so probably those have an email 03:26:36 I think she might hate me though, so probably I am not the best person to make contact anyway 03:26:38 didn't actually see one there 03:29:22 what did i do on coq club 03:29:57 okay, I tried summoning her 03:30:07 will let y'all know if she replies 03:30:44 kmc: copumpkin didn't mean you, if that's what you meant 03:30:49 oh 03:31:01 what was my moment of fame 03:31:03 oh I meant I'd found a promising email address for her on coq-club 03:31:06 oh 03:36:18 * pikhq_ feels slightly weird seeing "muaddibspace" up there. 03:36:25 * pikhq_ has two gerbils, named "Muad" and "Dib". 03:39:27 elliott: what the heck is the point of the stack overflow question 03:39:38 Bike: there isn't one 03:39:44 that's why i flagged the guy!! 03:39:59 what possible motivation could you have 03:40:05 is cwcc one of the nicks? 03:40:23 copumpkin: on reddit at least yeah 03:40:27 on irc too? 03:40:38 found a random comment on a blog under that 03:40:50 who knows, oh well 03:40:53 I'll wait and see 03:41:48 copumpkin: did you hear this channel is getting interviewed by the WSJ?????????? 03:41:53 nope 03:42:01 cpressey is, anyway. 03:42:01 truly the golden age of esolangs is upon us 03:42:02 I... what. 03:42:11 http://catseye.tc/wsj.html 03:47:20 Huuuh. 03:47:34 2k13 year of esolang on the desktop 03:49:59 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 03:52:26 -!- augur has joined. 03:57:17 I don't know if being able to run Linux and Windows at the same time is worth losing being able to play with Virtualbox 03:58:11 * pikhq_ snickers at the zzo38 suggestion 04:05:09 Although I have things to say about it, I am not the only one, so it should be done in the IRC that everyone can answer. 04:06:49 yesterday I had the pleasure of explaining why there are more ordinal numbers than cardinal numbers 04:06:52 fsvo 'more' 04:07:15 did you enjoy it 04:07:18 yes 04:07:27 because ordinals are orderings of sets and cardinals are just sizes? 04:08:28 I smell factorials 04:08:38 not orderings of sets 04:09:00 so, if all you have is sets, you can construct the natural numbers inductively like so: 0 = {}, 1 = {0}, 2 = {0,1}, 3 = {0,1,2}, etc 04:09:03 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 04:09:20 every natural number is the set of numbers less than it 04:09:26 um that's not valid without the axiom of infinity kmc 04:09:35 yes, so? 04:09:44 so it's not a construction but an appeal to an axiom!!! 04:09:48 stfu 04:09:57 sorry i thought the idea of doing this in #esoteric was so that you could have everyone be annoying and pedantic about it 04:10:13 no the idea is that he says a thing that's less wrong than the thing i said 04:10:23 elliott: "constructing things from sets" means working in the axioms of a set theory 04:10:40 and since I didn't say which one, you would assume ZF 04:10:40 ok i will allow it.... this time 04:10:43 THIS TIME 04:10:59 actually i assumed you were working in New Foundations 04:11:05 that's a total lie i just wanted to annoy you by saying it 04:11:15 PROCEED 04:11:33 anyway. the set ℕ = {0,1,2,...} of *all* natural numbers looks like one of these 04:11:50 so we call that the first transfinite ordinal and name it ω rather than ℕ for some reason 04:12:36 but then you can also build the set ω ∪ {ω} and what would you call that other than ω+1? 04:13:09 and you can make ω+2, ω+3, ω*2, ω*ω, etc 04:13:41 kmc: I don't get it. What is ω*2? 04:13:45 basically since you know how to do arithmetic on naturals, and those are just sets, you can apply the same operations to these transfinite ordinals 04:14:19 and ω ≠ ω+1 ≠ ω+2; they are sets with different elements 04:14:35 but they can be put into bijection with each other, so they have the same cardinality (size) 04:14:36 coppro: just define multiplication on the naturals-as-sets and then apply that to these weirdo things 04:14:53 right. i'm trying to remember how multiplication on naturals-as-sets works 04:15:11 it's not obvious, hence why I asked ;) 04:15:13 oh nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic 04:15:18 yeah, that'll do 04:15:32 i think you'll find that it's Trivial because I don't want to remember enough to explain it 04:15:37 prediction: at some point someone will vandalise one of the axioms on the ZFC wikipedia article 04:15:46 and mathematicians will actually adopt these vandalised axioms 04:15:46 huh? 04:15:54 because they looked them up to remember 04:16:11 prediction: nobody actually uses ZFC besides set theorists anyway 04:16:19 this is true 04:16:26 and nobody likes set theorists ~type theory 4eva~ 04:16:30 elliott: fu 04:16:33 set theory is awesome 04:16:41 the same would work (not work) for martin lof axioms, i'm sure 04:16:42 i'm sorry that you've taken it upon yourself to be so wrong 04:17:43 except that presently type theoretic research is more popular than set theoretic research, probably, so maybe researchers get tats of judgements or whatever 04:18:08 i don't think type theory research is more popular than set theory research :P 04:19:01 you think? i mean obviously some of it's where i hang out (here) but the most recent set theory thing i've read wasn't ZFC anyway 04:19:20 Z-Comp #1 is now open for entry! 04:20:26 Bike: it's all esoteric large cardinals crap 04:20:29 and the like 04:20:35 -!- mnoqy has joined. 04:20:44 well yeah but i mean how many people care about that 04:20:53 compared to whatever the fuck type theorists do 04:21:06 well mostly only computer scientists compare about type theory and generally those are considered to "not count" 04:21:20 but there are a lot of them! 04:21:31 i thought mathematicians proper were more concerned with like topology usually 04:21:36 also everything is usually formulated in sets, if it's formulated at all 04:21:40 and hey guess how easy it is to get from there to typeshits 04:21:52 ok but you have to realise how fucking crazy homotopy type theory is. 04:21:52 well sets are super easy and pretty familiar 04:21:57 it's the bullest of shits 04:21:57 Bike: I'm concerned with things that start with q 04:22:04 yes it's crazy /but/ so is algebraic topology 04:22:07 also: math 04:22:08 fuck that 04:22:11 things that start with q 04:22:14 also matroids 04:22:21 coppro: i'm. what are you talking about. 04:22:23 fuck matroids though. 04:22:30 quantum this, quantum that 04:22:40 isn't that like physics usually 04:22:46 with an occasional CSist 04:23:08 and a shitton of combinatorialists and cryptographers in the middle 04:23:15 <-- combinatorialist 04:23:26 combinatorics is the bomb 04:23:39 can you explain combinatorics facts such as: why i am shit at it 04:24:00 * coppro gets to spend tomorrow trying to figure out why sage and nauty appear to have different notions of canonical graph labelings and what to do about it 04:24:35 have fun! 04:26:58 kmc: your explanation went off the rails a bit 04:27:13 ? 04:27:53 well it stopped 04:28:29 because he explained it? 04:28:47 because I interrupted with helpful questions 04:29:06 since I refuse to accept that the definition of ordinal arithmentic is "etc." 04:29:21 some mathematician you are 04:29:42 <#haskeller> well getLine :: IO String contains a thunk that when evaluated reads characters of a line from standard input 04:29:47 anyway is it actually formalized that there are more ordinals than cardinals? i mean obviously you can't take the cardinality of all cardinals 04:29:53 wrong things considered harmful :'( 04:30:02 Bike: the cardinals are a strict subset of the ordinals 04:30:11 oh 04:30:13 yeah duh oops 04:30:24 however, the way this works in practice is *really* wonky 04:30:37 shachaf: :( 04:30:42 shachaf: aren't you an op 04:30:47 can't you tell them they're wrong 04:30:50 and be listened to 04:31:26 because the map α -> א_α is injective 04:31:31 but it has many fixed points 04:31:32 I was away at the time. 04:32:09 Just looking at logs. 04:32:29 The annoying part is that they were "helping" someone else. 04:32:32 kmc: i told them they were wrong 04:32:35 I don't really know what to do. 04:32:45 but i was a bit mean and got called out on it :P 04:32:47 but then they stopped, so 04:32:59 is this particular person often wrong? 04:33:02 (not that i was trying to sound mean) 04:33:08 i've never seen their name before 04:33:11 ok 04:33:14 so how would you describe getLine 04:33:17 then i'm not sure there's much you can do other than correct them 04:33:21 @quote shachaf /bin/ls 04:33:21 shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files 04:33:28 "my favourite quote" 04:33:36 is that also wrong 04:33:40 what is wrong what is write 04:33:44 Bike: it's an IO action and *executing* it is what produces the line 04:33:47 not *evaluating* 04:33:48 Bike: it's right 04:33:56 how is that different from the thunk thing 04:34:01 oh, "evaluating" 04:34:10 Evaluation is distinct from execution. 04:34:19 right yeah ok got it nerds 04:34:20 i don't even like to speak of execution of IO actions 04:34:23 Execution is something that an interpreter does. 04:34:26 it makes people think it's something haskell can do 04:34:38 shachaf: preferably correct them with a link to the faq (PLUG PLUG PLUG) 04:34:50 kmc: imo join and help 04:34:57 Also I link to the FAQ a lot! 04:34:58 eh 04:35:00 i try to link to the faq 04:35:00 yay 04:35:13 someone wondered why it didn't cover some common thing a day or so ago!! 04:35:18 if only you had been there to Hear The Need 04:35:18 shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log$ grep ' @where faq' ALL | wc -l 04:35:19 98 04:35:29 if only it were a wiki and other people could add stuff 04:35:29 @where faq 04:35:30 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ 04:35:42 elliott has edited the FAQ though 04:35:44 kmc: hey, i edited it once 04:35:44 so props to him 04:35:45 yes 04:35:46 so fuck you, imo 04:36:01 imo no 04:36:03 hth 04:36:08 <#haskeller> 1. learn about monoids (which most people find pretty easy), 2. learn about endofunctors, 3. now you know about monads 04:36:13 :( 04:36:14 i can't help but feel slightly responsible :'( 04:36:23 shachaf: you should give different #haskellers different identifiers 04:36:28 Oh, true. 04:36:28 why bother 04:36:33 That was <#otherhaskeller> 04:36:38 you're giving me an image of the true platonic haskeller 04:36:40 Er, other#haskeller 04:36:49 "In addition, some people write articles about advanced math, using Haskell syntax as their notation. These articles are interesting, but the connection to everyday programming work is usually remote." very elliott 04:36:59 "#haskeller" could be an image macro like Scumbag Steve or whatever 04:37:16 no it couldn't don't say things like that 04:37:20 Just what reddit.com/r/haskell needs! 04:37:22 i saw an image macro comparing feminists negatively to MRAs today 04:37:26 so fuck image macros clearly 04:37:31 welp 04:37:38 time to burn down this internet and get a new one 04:37:46 Bike: i don't like that answer so much "Not My Preferred Part Of The Faq" 04:38:14 nerd 04:38:14 best faq section is... section 5, it contains all the wrong things people ask for 04:38:18 i need more insults 04:38:42 "I'm making an RPG. Should I define a type for each kind of monster, and a type class for them?" what the heck 04:39:06 shachaf: maybe you can bother other people to edit the faq more? my purpose in writing it was not like "i am kmc and here are the eternal truths of haskell" but like, a starting point for The Community to build a Consensus about how to explain things 04:39:15 Clearly you should make a *kind* for each kind of monster. 04:39:26 kmc: getting a wiki account is annoying and you need one to edit 04:39:27 clearly 04:39:29 kmc: I know. 04:39:33 kmc: and nobody edits the wiki and it's a bunch of work 04:39:37 I think the correct answer depends on a lot of things. 04:39:38 i doubt most people even know you wrote it all 04:39:45 as in, that's not why they're not editing 04:39:49 gotta make my RPG isomorphic to lob's theorem 04:39:53 if there's a Getting kmc Back To #haskell project then getting other people to edit the FAQ would help 04:39:59 elliott: oh ,I know it's not why they're not editing 04:40:03 wow you discovered our secret plot 04:40:07 kmc: It's much easier to Cale it in IRC than to edit the FAQ. 04:40:08 we have club meetings and everything 04:40:11 yeah :/ 04:40:12 a comic sans banner 04:40:19 cake etc. 04:40:19 transferring it to an easier to edit venue would also be a fine plan 04:40:19 @quote Cale.it 04:40:20 ddarius says: Now I can just point people at a readable and relevant paper instead of having to Cale it. 04:40:38 caling...? 04:40:44 kmc: I've answered a few stackoverflow.com questions! That's like adding to a mega-FAQ. 04:40:47 true 04:40:59 Ever Asked Questions 04:41:04 My highest-voted answer is a pseudo-monad-tutorial. :-( 04:41:07 man i should just not talk yes 04:41:31 To make RPG computer games I think SQL is not a bad programming language for doing so. 04:41:50 SELECT key; INSERT key INTO door; 04:41:52 Bike: it's what monochrom calls "lecture replays" 04:42:16 kmc: That isn't how it is done, though. 04:42:23 shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log$ grep '.*double (double 5' ALL | wc -l 04:42:23 214 04:42:24 Bike: basically if you ask a Frequently Asked Question in #haskell then 2-5 people start typing out their favorite boilerplate answer into the channel 04:42:34 yeah i know how that goes 04:42:39 maybe then they'll argue about which one is better 04:42:42 or just talk past each other 04:42:52 shachaf: wow 04:42:53 this pissed me off and eventually I quit 04:43:01 kmc: i think it's more like two boilerplate answers nowadays 04:43:03 "double (double"??????????? 04:43:07 and the rest are lies 04:43:10 how many people do @faq 04:43:15 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:43:19 like one 04:43:19 mnoqy: "i think it's an in-n-out thing" 04:43:20 people weren't interested in collaborating to find a good way to explain stuff 04:43:23 mnoqy: cale has an example he uses to explain lazy evaluation 04:43:28 it involves reduction of some doublings 04:43:29 elliott: ah 04:43:33 nice 04:43:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcEaHT9mt-Y good AI 04:43:36 but i didn't realise he'd used it that many times 04:43:45 shachaf: wait does that match multiple lines of the reduction 04:43:56 Maybe. 04:44:19 OK, I'll be fairer and only count one per day. 04:45:16 shachaf@carbon:~/haskell-log/haskell$ grep -l '.*double (double 5' 0* 1* | wc -l 04:45:19 57 04:45:43 tha'ts still a lot 04:46:13 mnoqy: how s well doing 04:46:49 whoa thats freaky shachaf he just joined 04:46:54 are you in "correspondance" 04:47:10 "no" 04:49:08 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:49:57 -!- sivoais has joined. 04:50:10 shachaf: do you think the ops and other regulators understand why i wrote the FAQ and why I care that other people edit it? 04:52:31 er I meant to write "regulars", lolol 04:52:53 i was imagining a beautiful #haskell bureaucracy 04:52:54 kmc are you like the lost old man of that channel 04:53:00 what would that entail exactly 04:53:05 Maybe. 04:53:27 thousands of years ago, the great sage, kmc, set down the Frequent Questions for all the people of this channel 04:53:57 kmc: btw it is great that you messaged preflex because everyone who does "seen kmc" gets 05:53:41 kmc was last seen 364 days, 21 hours, 31 minutes and 13 seconds ago, saying: 04:54:02 and it's super mysterious 04:54:06 haha 04:54:08 <3 04:54:08 (this has happened multiple times) 04:54:11 imo you should talk about why you left and what you're unhappy with etc. rather than have me quote you out of context in -ops, if you want people to know 04:54:20 yeah 04:54:23 i have an unposted blog post about it 04:54:43 it's not important to me personally that people know exactly why i left 04:55:09 I have some ideas about how to make the channel better, and several of the ops know what they are (via #esoteric mainly I guess?!?!?!?) 04:55:18 so I guess I have done my part 04:55:30 and it's up to y'all to implement them or not, as you see fit 04:55:37 sort of worry that a public blog post will stir up drama / people going "omg did you hear this channel sux" in #haskell / trolls realising they can join and be catered to with helpfulness for hours (this already happens to some extent, targetting at least one person known to be helpful) 04:55:45 elliott: yeah 04:55:49 that was one reason not to post it 04:56:00 also it would break a longstanding rule of not posting fluff on my blog 04:56:01 There is a lot of disagreement between ops on the right way to handle things. 04:56:02 fsvo fluff 04:56:02 this sounds complicated 04:56:04 maybe you could make a super secret post and shachaf can drop it into -ops!! 04:56:11 yeah an anonymous pastebin!!!! 04:56:15 haha 04:56:17 Including at least one who says that he likes feeding trolls. 04:56:26 that's not quite the kind of super secret i meant but that works too 04:57:04 ok here's what we do: we make kmc a #haskell op just so he can talk in -ops without actually rejoining #haskell 04:57:09 perfect??? ?? ? 04:57:19 can my title be "Consigliere" 04:57:32 the wsj guy reading this is totally gonna scoop us 04:57:41 write all about the #Haskell Schism 04:57:53 don't do it wsj person 04:58:02 haskell ain't no esolang!! 04:58:08 ("fluff" isn't quite the right word because communities are important and all... I guess it's more about the fact that I'm far from an expert on running online communities and I don't want to make big public proclamations about how it should be done) 04:58:44 I try to make the point that people don't notice the cost of valuable people who leave the channel because they're so tired of it all. 04:58:55 You're an obvious example but there are surely others. 04:59:03 i resisted having a blog at all for a while because i didn't want to be one of those Hacker News blogjerks who is constantly spouting an uninformed opinion about something or other 04:59:05 there's me at various points (like I said) 04:59:16 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:59:25 i've taken #haskell off my autojoin for being annoying and noisy at various points 04:59:25 so I try to stick to things that are some combination of a) objective fact, and b) fields where I am actually an expert 04:59:31 or more commonly reinstalled and just not bothered to join it because it was no fun 04:59:48 shachaf: thanks for saying i'm valuable :) 04:59:58 -!- sivoais has joined. 05:00:13 another one of my suggestions was just to make #haskell-in-depth be actually a thing, somehow 05:00:26 that exists now 05:00:30 it's called #haskell-lens and i'm not kidding 05:00:34 in fact I stayed in #haskell-in-depth for a while after I left #haskell 05:00:35 haha really? 05:00:40 cool 05:00:44 Well, #haskell-lens is really #haskell-edwardk. 05:00:45 #haskell-edwardk 05:00:47 efb 05:00:55 ok well maybe I will join some day! 05:01:01 yeah but people talk about the scarce amounts of non-edwardk advanced stuff there is too sometimes! 05:01:05 thanks for the recommendation 05:01:08 I like the time when we had a monad tutorial in #haskell-in-depth. 05:01:24 And a somethingorother tutorial in #-ops? 05:01:32 is that like having sex in the living room because all your friends are having a party in your bedroom? 05:01:39 Someone got banned and went into #-ops to appeal it, and then just shifted the original discussion to there. 05:01:46 ;_; 05:01:51 now they have two problems 05:02:43 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:03:49 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:04:55 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:05:13 -!- Bike has joined. 05:05:46 kmc: i had the same worry with my blog (except i'm not an expert in anything). i think i've done pretty well by being descriptive rather than normative, and also avoiding those "why x sucks" or "comparing x vs y" type posts 05:05:51 mm 05:05:57 'but those get so many pageviews!' 05:06:12 problem solved: nobody reads my blog anyway 05:06:16 right another obvious trick is: don't care about pageviews and don't have ads so you don't have a financial incentive for pageviews 05:06:19 yeah :) 05:06:21 hey i bet shachaf does 05:06:26 i fail a bit at not caring about pageviews 05:06:36 at least I find it interesting to see which posts are most popular 05:06:43 well it's one thing to say "i don't write popularity", but it's still nice to see your stuff getting read 05:06:46 imo kmc doesn't update his blog enough 05:06:48 for popularity* 05:06:53 that's right 05:07:03 he hasn't updated for almost as long as arcane sentiment! 05:07:34 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 05:07:40 moderation rather than abstention, bla bla bla 05:07:53 "hm i should write a post about buddhism and ascetism as relates to hacker news" 05:08:00 oh wow kernel JIT spraying is #2 now 05:08:12 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:08:15 i don't read Bike's weblog 05:08:20 woe 05:08:22 almost caught up to quasicrystals, which was far and away #1 because of its non-tech stoner appeal 05:08:23 well, not regularly 05:08:33 (ok not everyone who likes pretty pictures is a stoner but you know what i mean) 05:08:51 what if you had pretty pictures of jit spraying. think of the pageviews 05:08:54 :O 05:09:13 alt. embrace the fact that "jit spraying" sounds pornographic 05:09:31 kmc: i stared at the quasicrystal animation stoner-style, i admit 05:09:31 yeah... 05:09:38 elliott: did it stare back 05:09:43 thats the abyss noob 05:09:56 -!- sivoais has joined. 05:09:56 quasicrystal animation????? is it pretty 05:10:15 http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2011/10/quasicrystals-as-sums-of-waves-in-plane.html 05:10:23 have you ever catalyzed a reaction...... i mean REALLY catalyzed a reaction 05:10:26 ah yeah that's pretty pretty 05:10:35 hey kmc is coming to visit in, uh, 2 days? 05:10:41 never seen 'em catal 05:10:49 http://intothecontinuum.tumblr.com/ has a ton of great stuff 05:10:53 if you like trippy gifs of math stuff 05:10:59 ok wow yeah that's pretty stonery 05:10:59 and/or mathematica 05:11:07 Bike: yes there's a pot leaf about 30 pages in 05:11:15 based on http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CannabisCurve.html 05:11:22 i meant your post but yeah 05:11:27 oh 05:11:36 also there are periodic adverts for some kind of meditative practice 05:11:40 on intothecontinuum i mean 05:11:43 shachaf: yeah I am 05:12:02 i was going to make a "stoner?" joke but then it was sad :( 05:12:24 on tumblr i get followed by a couple weirdo meditative hippie people 05:12:27 i'm not really sure why 05:12:31 http://24.media.tumblr.com/43b227c8b2b7b5e76e9a8269a1ce8d38/tumblr_mg4re6ASry1qfjvexo1_500.gif ok stop unzipping my brain plz 05:12:50 is that a stoner phrase 05:13:08 it's weird because i know some o fthese look v. familiar from my own renderings 05:13:19 but i never published them 05:13:29 it's like we both took the same photo of the platonic realm 05:13:37 http://wetwareontologies.tumblr.com/ ????? 05:13:53 plato isn't even a planet anymore 05:14:01 the 'unzipping' gif reminds me of salvia a bit 05:14:03 shachaf: haha 05:14:17 Bike: did you see http://screenshotsofdespair.tumblr.com/ 05:14:26 oh no this one http://memeengine.tumblr.com/ 05:14:32 meme engine 05:14:33 "You know you’re tackling a difficult subject when you use a metaphor with Quantum Fields to clarify things." like whoa, man 05:14:38 kmc: classic 05:14:51 mnoqy: i'm not sure if it would be worse if it was just reddit gifs or something 05:14:55 mnoqy: the prettier quasicrystal thing is when you stand back 05:15:00 Even Prettierrj 05:15:07 "The Plane of Immanence is Deleuze’s poetic term for underlying reality… likely it’s purposely vague about whether that reality is physical, material, or of some other sort. At any rate, it is objective. Concepts seem to be ways to view that reality, and these are subjective. For example, I could examine a tree using the concept: Tree, but I could equally well examine it using the concept: Cells, or the concept: Atoms. Or Energy, or 05:15:28 Bike: Science... technology... literature... it's all philosophy when you dig deep enough isn't it? 05:15:33 http://24.media.tumblr.com/2337eae56982599aff1fd457dea38e01/tumblr_mn4viaoIb01s2jikwo1_500.jpg sort of want a big poster of this 05:15:42 kmc: want a backpack with a matasano logo on it?? 05:15:47 maybe 05:15:53 are they going to give me one anyway? 05:15:54 elliott: the great thing is, he has more readers than i ever will 05:16:15 i fuckin read that as monsanto 05:16:20 kmc: Do you know what painting that's from? I assume it's some martyrdom 05:16:27 i did too elliott. we can be terrible together 05:16:39 i don't know 05:16:46 elliott: yeah me too often, and everyone else will forever 05:16:59 they should merge 05:17:00 imo 05:17:27 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:17:37 my favorite whatever dot tumblr dot com is probably windows95tips, i'm banal 05:18:05 what about mnxmnkmnd 05:18:08 that one's p. good 05:18:19 who reads text posts? nobody that's who 05:18:54 textposts.tumblr.com 05:18:56 all pictures 05:18:59 checkmate bicycles 05:19:14 http://drilbert.tumblr.com/ 05:19:47 shachaf: https://twitter.com/TumblrTXT 05:19:57 -!- sivoais has joined. 05:25:16 http://www.alanturing.net/turing_archive/graphics/ibsen.JPEG programming in the 50s sure did suck 05:26:43 Do you want to enter Z-Comp? 05:27:38 Bike: Is that some programming language? What is it? How does that form work? 05:28:43 It's a programming language, it's a cellular automata program, and I have no idea. 05:28:43 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:29:45 If anyone figure it out, will a clone be made of the system, implemented in C or something like that? 05:29:59 -!- sivoais has joined. 05:30:16 I think the computer was a Ferranti Mark I. 05:30:37 Manchester Mark I 05:30:49 Or that. 05:31:20 The design for which became the Ferranti after some modification. 05:31:43 ferrari mark i 05:31:55 Loos like the characters are just encoding of pentets 05:32:04 looks* 05:32:07 what an incredible fucking pain 05:32:11 Unless of course jumping to conclusions based on the word "Manchester" at the top is a bad idea... 05:32:45 lol, when the thing came out a neurosurgeon was like "uh until it can write poetry it's not REALLY a brain" 05:33:09 Could of course be the Manchester Baby - the first computer to make music! 05:33:28 well the program was written by turing, so it could probably be any of them really 05:33:40 "Pray, Mr. Babbage" would be a good name for an esolang 05:33:45 itt esolangs are like bands? 05:35:31 kmc: OK make some "Pray, Mr. Babbage" or put in list of ideas in the section about idea of names. 05:35:48 i,i "would be a good name for a language to write quines in when preceded by its quotation" 05:35:55 ow my brain 05:36:18 shachaf: Yes, OK, maybe it is. 05:36:28 "[Turing] died while in the middle of this groundbreaking work, leaving a large pile of handwritten notes and some programs. This material is still not fully understood." so link it, jerks 05:37:10 maybe it's a halting oracle O_O 05:37:27 2spooky 05:37:35 but no it's probably something about pinecone developmenet 05:37:45 very groundbreaking 05:37:54 it was!!! 05:38:11 you biologists have weird priorities 05:38:31 dude pinecones are hard 05:38:48 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:40:00 -!- sivoais has joined. 05:41:24 I grew up on pine cones 05:41:26 mmm 05:48:26 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:49:59 -!- sivoais has joined. 05:51:16 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:51:44 The theme of Z-Comp #1 is "siderotil"; but maybe this is no good... what are your idaes about it? 05:52:07 litoredis 05:58:35 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:00:01 -!- sivoais has joined. 06:01:43 PERFORM UNTIL 0 = 1 DISPLAY "Penus " WITH NO ADVANCING END-PERFORM. 06:02:41 cobol? 06:03:02 What does "WITH NO ADVANCING" mean? 06:03:17 Bike: yes 06:03:18 zzo38: no newline 06:03:26 how verbose 06:03:41 http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/pdthelp/v1r1/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.entcobol.doc_3.4%2Ftpbeg16b.htm it's cool how it might have a newline anyway 06:04:06 kmc: That was my guess. 06:08:50 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:10:01 -!- sivoais has joined. 06:15:55 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:16:36 -!- sivoais has joined. 06:37:16 https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/1ca57f7a260c72d36d96 anyone want to run this on an actual mainframe :) 06:37:40 mainframe is usually a function 06:37:59 it's just not the same if it's not handwritten on one of those cards 06:51:24 http://mashable.com/2013/05/23/hp-envy-touchsmart-14/ 06:52:46 nice 07:06:55 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 07:07:08 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 07:13:59 shachaf: I read OotS and don't play D&D (not counting D&D-inspired games such as Neverwinter Nights... but I hardly knew what I was doing when I was playing that anyway) 07:18:25 FireFly: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-98796.html 07:18:29 Since I make recordings of D&D games, well, it is almost related to your statement, I suppose. 07:23:10 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:24:20 I want to make a total of the votes based on something between the sum of votes and the average of votes; what would be a good way? 07:31:37 This is a messages posted on Wiktionary: "Wikitionary has too many made up words. I am presuming to make word games easier to play." 07:35:44 -!- cpressey has joined. 07:37:18 cpressey: i can't sleep because i don't want to miss the interview. send help 07:40:29 elliott: is help in the form of juggalos ok? they don't have anything else to do while waiting for their test results so i could tell them to visit Hexham for a few days 07:41:23 What date/time is interview, precisely? I would need to know what it is, please! 07:42:59 test results? 07:44:17 FireFly: That was a quote. 07:44:22 zzo38: i'm thinking of proposing 4PM thursday. UTC-5 (EST). if he can't do that he's out fri-sun so the next slot would be the following monday 07:44:30 tomorrow seems too soon 07:45:44 er, i guess i meant EDT, not EST 07:46:09 my plans involve not talking 07:46:19 shachaf: you are wise, but also boring. 07:46:23 what if this wsj person likes #esoteric so much that they decide to stay!! 07:46:29 then i'll never be able to talk in here again 07:46:31 what's 4pm utc-5 in utc 07:46:36 i'm too tired to think 07:46:41 elliott: 9pm 07:46:44 also, i will decline to ask about the juggalos 07:47:00 hmmm i could do that 07:47:00 elliott: You haven't even been offered! It's rude to decline. 07:47:07 Been offered to ask, I mean. 07:47:08 if i sleep today and then the day after! 07:47:25 will i be able to sleep tomorrow with the excitement of the wall street journal hanging over me tho 07:47:43 i can propose tomorrow instead of thursday and just get this over with 07:47:50 but of course it depends on zzo38 and others 07:47:53 also: http://www.jsvine.com/ <-- the person 07:48:01 oh boy we're on a first domain name basis now 07:48:09 since he knows who we are it seems fairs 07:48:16 oh, he's actually a programmer 07:48:18 that we know whos 07:48:20 etc 07:48:24 that makes it a bit less fun 07:49:05 cpressey: I will be available the following Monday, but probably not Thursday. Now just see what other people think, including yourself, of course. 07:49:12 "A Chrome extension for declaring "tab bankruptcy" without losing all your links." this is uncomfortably resonant with me 07:49:34 i decline to speculate what he "actually" is, but he contacted me in the capacity of a reporter, saying "I'm a reporter", so that's how I'm treating him 07:50:01 zzo38: how is tomorrow (wednesday) for you? 07:50:37 cpressey: by "actually" i meant as opposed to not a programmer 07:50:41 not as opposed to not a journalist 07:50:54 cpressey: I might not be able, although it depends what time on Wednesday. 07:51:13 zzo38: 4PM EDT? 07:51:30 That time I don't think I will be here; I will probably be on a boat at that time. 07:51:39 Whose boat? 07:51:55 I don't know. 07:52:34 Are you going to/from Victoria? 07:53:17 i'm partial to tomorrow as opposed to thursday, fwiw 07:53:24 no opinion on dates after that 07:54:12 shachaf: Probably. 07:54:41 zzo38: What's this boat thing? Tell us details. 07:55:12 ok, i'll propose 4PM thu and 4PM the following mon and let the chips fall where they may 07:57:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:57:17 elliott: ok, then maybe let's just go with tomorrow 07:57:54 shachaf: probably the Friendship Boat hth 07:57:59 like ripping off a plaster 07:58:09 cpressey: Since when do you say hth? 08:02:02 fungot: Quick, stop breathing, you'll catch the hth bug. 08:02:02 fizzie: i shall help also.... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! come on, now! 08:02:47 oh no....fungot is happy to help............. 08:02:47 mnoqy: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! what's the big deal? so what if we won a war out there! can't it see i love my daddy! the children are going! 08:03:31 fungot: Also please don't mess up that interview thing it would be bad PR. 08:03:31 fizzie: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! 08:03:39 Geez. 08:04:47 Cleaning up my desk here yesterday (moving offices), I found a flow-chart of fungot. 08:04:47 fizzie: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like... 08:05:51 fizzie: terrorised by people telling you about how speech recognition sucks too much? 08:06:54 I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than "I'm not going to dignify that with a response other than '...'". 08:07:30 http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png <- flowchart 08:07:30 fizzie: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it? 08:07:38 fizzie: Speech recognition is pretty great. 08:07:47 Don't listen to elliott, he's just trying to "get you down". 08:08:32 fizzie: Tell me about speech recognition: Does there *have* to be a short (noticeable) delay between saying something and it being recognized? 08:08:37 Every system I've seen has had that sort of delay. 08:08:56 What if you restrict the vocabulary significantly? Say, a few words, or a few dozen words. 08:09:31 make a button for each word and just dang press the button 08:09:45 For a few dozen words? 08:09:48 hire a dog to press the button for you 08:09:53 that's a lot ta buttons 08:09:59 dogs are expensive 08:10:25 I assume limited-vocabulary recognition could be made to happen pretty fast, if you wanted to pay attention to that. 08:11:46 fizzie: I was wondering about using it as part of the interface of a real-time-strategy sort of game. 08:11:50 Along with a touch screen. 08:18:42 Of course there's some inherent delay involved in the feature extraction, and figuring out if the utterance has actually ended (if the vocabulary is limited and unambiguous enough, that'd be easier), and of course the actual decoding (but computers are fast)... I suppose as a ballpark figure a hundred milliseconds or two sounds reasonable. (Don't quote me on that.) 08:19:13 100ms is reasonable, I guess? 08:19:48 If you limit the vocabulary such that it's prefix-free etc. then maybe you don't need to worry about figuring out if the utterance has ended. 08:24:23 -!- Taneb has joined. 08:26:38 I'm sure that, with sufficient cleverness, you could improve the response time of large-vocabulary continuous speech systems a lot too, it's just that people perhaps haven't really seen the need to. (And if you're too aggressive about it, you'd probably start getting sub-optimal results.) 08:26:59 Well, sub-optimaller. They're already quite sub-optimal. 08:27:20 (Or is that "subler-optimal"?) 08:30:04 worse 08:31:08 Würst. 08:31:25 cpressey: so is it tomorrow? 08:32:34 elliott: that's what i'm just about to propose but dude is PROBABLY still asleep right now 08:33:14 cpressey: dude's probably wide awake out of pure excitement 08:33:15 imo. 08:33:35 @localtime cpressey 08:33:37 Local time for cpressey is Tue May 28 09:34:03 2013 08:33:50 @localtime Taneb 08:33:51 Local time for Taneb is Tue May 28 09:33:50 08:33:59 whoa, dude 08:34:18 Hexham's 20 seconds behind GMT 08:34:34 also doesn't have a year 08:35:19 @localtime fungot 08:35:19 fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace? 08:35:24 Local time for fungot is Whoa, man. 08:35:33 Aw, snap, it was "dude". 08:36:04 20 seconds behind GMT, and timeless. 08:36:15 is there a gender-neutral version of "man" 08:36:33 Maybe we could agree on "oman" as a compromise. 08:36:38 shachaf: comrade 08:36:45 whoa, comrade 08:39:56 ok, sent, just in case he's as excited as we are and it up at, er, 4:40AM on a tuesday 08:40:03 *is up 08:40:35 i expect a reply in 4 hrs 08:43:02 "As I mentioned, the most newsworthy event recently is that, apparently, we're newsworthy, even if it is only for a "gosh, aren't they quirky" piece. Sort of post-modern, isn't it? Heisennews." 08:43:45 being the most intelligent fragment of my missive 08:47:53 his career appears to have begun in 2008... combine that with an image search for good measure, and how old do you think he is? 08:48:46 since we're not hiring him, i think we're totally allowed to be rampantly ageist 08:49:15 Hello there, logreading WSJ guy. 08:49:21 (I'm sure that'll happen.) 08:51:38 cpressey: i'm gonna go ahead and guess: OLDER THAN ME 08:51:56 fizzie: yo can you op me just for the duration of this whole WSJ thing 08:51:59 special occasion etc 09:00:32 That sounds kind of potentially disastrous, doesn't it? 09:01:15 isn't crossing the street 09:02:23 ais523 should be the only op for the duration 09:04:58 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello). 09:10:21 elliott: i'm gonna go ahead and guess: YOUNGER THAN ME 09:11:02 cpressey: well, that establishes it. he's older than the youngest person possible and younger than the oldest person possible 09:11:11 cpressey is old? 09:11:38 i think technically oerjan may be the oldest person possible 09:11:57 shachaf: what part of "Befunge-93" do you not... wait, didn't you say you're, like, not into esolangs, or something? 09:12:17 I think technically I'm the oldest person possible, because the universe didn't exist before I was born. 09:12:38 cpressey: are you sure you're not as old as oerjan? 09:12:46 Oh, you're *that* Chris Pressey. 09:12:46 wow, a non-moralist *and* a solipsist, that's very, very good 09:13:14 elliott: i think it came up once and he's like a year or two older than me 09:13:32 cpressey: oh snap, valuable info's re: the secret of cpressey's age 09:13:38 i *think*. don't go on my word. th' dementia, y'know 09:13:50 storing it in my #esoteric database. it's like boily's but less specific 09:15:10 elliott: also put in that Chris is short for Christine 09:15:28 i doubt the factual accuracy of this statement, cpressey 09:15:36 `quote "chris" 09:15:38 263) elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. 09:16:08 `run quotes cpressey | shuf 09:16:10 123) INTERNET YAY Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 310) `quote django ​352) django is named after a person? thought it would be a giraffe or something thankfully only one \ 136) "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kos 09:16:47 oerjan: I demand a wisdom entry about cpressey. 09:17:28 my quotes are kind of lame and i'm pretty sure i never said some of them 09:17:37 i like your quotes 09:17:42 `quote 136 09:17:43 especially the zomgmodules ones 09:17:44 136) "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." alise: I I was going to say something then your last line floored me 09:17:57 oh, the ZOMGMODULES ones might be better, naturally 09:17:57 i just love modules that much 09:18:06 cpressey: have you been to any more pycons 09:18:19 cpressey: you should move to san francisco btw 09:18:22 i think they bring out the best in you 09:18:41 Does "heh" stand for "hope elliott helps"? 09:19:22 elliott: yeah, about that... so you know the guy sitting next to the guy in the donglegate photo... oh, i've already said too much 09:19:46 was that you 09:20:00 rumours are cheap 09:20:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:21:02 ok shachaf, *why* do you think i should move to SF of all places 09:21:22 `quote ZOMGMODULES 09:21:23 263) elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate. \ 264) ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf. \ 314) I can trust elliott_ to have an opinion on anything and everything Yes. And the best thi 09:21:38 pro tip: `pastequotes 09:21:48 cpressey: well, why wouldn't you 09:21:49 `help 09:21:49 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 09:22:01 `paste quotes 09:22:03 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes 09:22:26 NEWS FLASH: First non-airport Starbucks in Finland is going to open, at a bookstore in Helsinki, later this year! 09:22:29 It's like we're getting a small taste of civilization also here in the PERIPHERIES. 09:22:48 `pastequotes ZOMGMODULES 09:22:53 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32352 09:23:47 coffee = civilization, no doubt about it 09:23:50 cpressey: man, remember Falcon. 09:23:54 good times. 09:26:19 yeah, that was when the Great Language Explosion of the 2010's was just beginning 09:27:05 cpressey: remember ooc?? 09:27:40 not as well 09:28:00 i remember not wanting to bootstrap it mainly 09:28:34 was ooc the first language with pink unicorns? i ask because these days THEY ALL HAVE PINK UNICORNS HAVE YOU NOTICED 09:28:48 "It was the summer of twenty-ten," like the song goes. 09:31:33 which song 09:33:23 cpressey: so this whole cornwall thing... 09:33:35 I admit I have no idea how anyone could actually end up in cornwall 09:33:55 elliott: that's consistent with the fact that i have no idea how i ended up here 09:34:47 were you sailing solo around the world and got lost 09:35:47 cpressey: have you considered ending up in san francisco instead 09:36:49 ... yes. i was trying to get to Hexham but was not sufficiently familiar with the region names in the BBS shipping forecast. which is totally my fault because they're listed off at the beginning of "The Good Ship Lifestyle" by Chumbawamba 09:37:29 shachaf: i do generally prefer to be *outside* of massive reality tunnels if i can help it, thanks 09:38:11 twist: you're inside a massive reality tunnel right now 09:38:19 http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/coast_and_sea/shipping_forecast for your review 09:38:36 shachaf: not THAT massive. i mean jesus 09:38:53 jesus is p. massive 09:39:12 cpressey: ok so next question, why the hell were you trying to get to hexham 09:39:31 -!- Jafet has joined. 09:39:36 elliott: i think we're all trying to answer that question in our own way, aren't we? 09:39:43 no 09:39:50 i'm not even trying to get to hexham 09:39:57 it's a very easy question to answer for me! 09:40:28 elliott is trying to get out of hexham 09:40:41 he wants to come to san francisco in order to obtain hugs 09:42:01 *BBC 09:42:06 i'll go to sf for kmc and nothing less 09:42:12 cpressey: no I liked the idea that you still use BBSes. 09:42:15 kmc is coming to sf................tomorrow 09:42:17 and that they offer shipping forecasts. 09:42:39 elliott: excellent point, i like that idea too 09:44:16 I've spent too much time on Tumblr. I'm just imagining people saying, "Johnlock looks to cxontinue strong, with very little Doctor/Clara" 09:57:10 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:23:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:30:37 Phantom_Hoover: hi you must be here tomorrow 9pm 10:30:55 assuming he gets back to me with "yes that'll work" 10:31:11 but i have an exam right after that... 10:31:24 what time is that pacific time? help 10:31:51 shachaf: i think it's 1PM PDT 10:32:15 what is even happening tomorrow 9pm... 10:32:16 so that's not in ~10 hours 10:32:20 right 10:32:29 it's in ~32 hours? 10:32:29 Arctic time 10:32:36 Phantom_Hoover: http://jsvine.com/ may join the channel then 10:32:58 oh my god 10:33:06 i will be there as best i can 10:33:07 srsly you have exams that late? that's, like, after the watershed 10:34:15 i, er, mixed up am and pm 10:34:31 so we're going to `relcome him right 10:34:50 yes 10:35:44 modulo the fact that i always expect `relcome to do it in an Astro-from-the-Jestons voice 10:35:49 Can you confirm it's in ~32 hours? 10:35:52 Er. 10:36:02 Not that. 10:36:06 ~34? 10:36:08 Whatever. 10:36:10 I don't know. 10:36:12 `run sed -e 's/bow/words/' -i bin/relcome 10:36:12 ~36? 10:36:14 help 10:36:16 No output. 10:36:21 cpressey, man you're so old 10:36:23 shachaf: i will confirm as soon as he confirms 10:36:36 Phantom_Hoover: old like monoids 10:36:38 The time you're talking about! Is it in ~10 hours? 10:37:12 What was that all about, rainwords is totally sucky compared to rainbow, it's all ORDERLY and SUCH. 10:37:15 `relcome test 10:37:17 ​test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 10:37:18 shachaf: no, it's ~24 more hours than that 10:37:19 ew. 10:37:20 `revert 10:37:23 Done. 10:37:30 cpressey: there was literally never any question of not relcoming him 10:37:34 it's not even conceivable 10:38:07 Relcome ru reh rinternational rub ror resoteric rogramming ranguage resign 10:38:08 I bet he'll use a crappy client that doesn't do colours though 10:38:12 ... rorge 10:39:24 `run wehlcohme | rainbow # rehlcohme 10:39:27 ​Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.) 10:39:29 Phantom_Hoover: old enough to have far too many hanna-barbera memories stuck in the ol' bean 10:40:54 `run welcome | bork 10:40:57 bash: bork: command not found 10:41:24 `apropos silly text filter 10:41:25 apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config 10:41:59 `run env LC_ALL=fi_FI.UTF-8 apropos something 10:42:01 apropos: opastepolkujen asetustiedostoa /etc/manpath.config ei voi avata 10:42:10 Yay for translations. 10:43:17 fungot text filter 10:43:17 Jafet: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! whadd'ya mean she's gone! 10:43:48 cpressey: were the 80s actually real (important question) 10:44:36 elliott: they were not "i guarantee it" 10:44:37 of course they were 10:44:54 can you imagine going straight from the 70s to the 90s? 10:44:59 `run env LC_ALL=he_IL.UTF-8 apropos something 10:45:01 apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config 10:45:02 useless bot 10:45:20 Phantom_Hoover: uh the 70s didn't exist either 10:45:21 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:46:02 you're saying we went straight from the 60s to the 90s? 10:46:06 `run welcome | zalgo 10:46:07 with no buffer at all? 10:46:08 W͗͝e͊͆l̑̇c̘͡oͫ͡m̹͏e̐̀ ͒ͅt̹̊ō̴ ͍̬t̜̃h̜́e̙̓ ̰͆ị̊n̦ͬt͍̰e͈̚ṛ͝n͂̕a̸ͩt̶ͧi̲̝o͒҉nͨ͋a̲͂l͈͛ ͓̿ḧ̤ü̘b̟͋ ͭͅf͎͇o̿̿r̛͍ ̟̩e̷̟ṣ̈o̡̰t͖͌ê͕r̪͡i̶̱c͇̼ ̍͠p̲̈́r͕͑o̼҉g̖̈r̳ͦa̶̲m̞ͮm͈̜í̖ṇͫg̨̒ ́̽lͯ̀aͧ̏n̗̏g̼̲u̖͗a̜͆g̪͢e͔็ ̰ͅd͆̏e̱̔s̸ 10:46:15 Phantom_Hoover: uh you're not quite getting the pattern here 10:46:20 let me give you a hint the 60s didn't exist either 10:46:30 did the 90s exist 10:46:32 Phantom_Hoover: shachaf = solipsist 10:46:33 typing without punctuation is so weird help i don't understand it 10:46:36 Phantom_Hoover: some of them 10:46:49 cpressey: I'm not a solipsist! 10:47:12 some kind of special-case time-line solipsism then 10:47:20 Phantom_Hoover: i could see going straight to the 90s from pretty much anywhere 10:47:27 it would make as much sense 10:47:44 aw no come on 10:47:52 they followed on pretty well from the 80s 10:48:05 The world was created ex nihilo next tuesday 10:48:32 Phantom_Hoover: yes but they didn't proceed to make any sense, did they 10:48:37 it goes like this: 1899, 1931, 1996, 1943, 2001, 1988, 1984, 1919, 1973, and so on 10:48:38 they're basically the logical continuation of the 80s except the cold war abruptly ended and everyone was kind of confused about what to do now 10:48:47 I've been born in the 90s 10:48:52 If they didn't exist, I must be a lie 10:48:53 Phantom_Hoover: and given that the 80s definitely don't make any sense, you need to explain the 80s for "you can only explain the 90s with the 80s" 10:49:04 Phantom_Hoover: now the question is, do the 70s explain the 80s? i contend: no. 10:49:21 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:49:21 well ok, nobody can explain the 80s 10:49:30 we are forced to conclude that either the 80s or the 90s spontaneously came to exist without making sense or following regular chronology. 10:49:47 it seems reasonable to entertain the possibility that we went straight from the 70s to the 90s 10:49:59 as it is no less absurd than going straight from the 70s to the 80s 10:50:04 Q.E.Q. 10:50:09 FreeFull: everyone in here was born in the 90s 10:50:15 i don't know what y'all find so inexplicable about the 80s 10:50:47 The dreaded "infinite digression" 10:50:49 rainbow suspenders? diff'rent strokes? thatcherism? 10:51:13 cpressey: well... can you *explain* the 80s 10:51:43 not everything needs to be explainable 10:52:04 explains shachaf patiently 10:52:25 So when are you moving to SF? 10:52:26 The 00s definitely existed 10:52:28 I remember them 10:52:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:52:44 Do your memories exist 10:52:49 No 10:52:50 But that's ok 10:53:24 http://dresdencodak.com/2006/12/03/dungeons-and-discourse/ 10:53:27 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:54:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 10:54:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:54:10 i felt no urge read beyond the first row of panels, am i jaded? 10:54:54 No, I think I posted the wrong one 10:54:54 just look at the art 10:54:56 http://dresdencodak.com/2009/01/27/advanced-dungeons-and-discourse/ 10:54:59 and tbh my though immediately after it loaded was "wtf harry potter with boobs" 10:55:29 that's pretty much the entire point of dresden codak these days 10:55:47 i like how "these days" is being used in reference to a URL with "2006" in it 10:56:39 Did 2006 exist 10:56:57 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:57:22 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 10:57:30 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:58:57 also i forgot how crazy DC's panel layout is 11:00:22 "Hey guys! The next page is almost finished, but I’m moving to Portland, OR this week and won’t have access to my computer for the better part of two weeks. To tide you all over (and because you deserve it), here are the full pencils of the next page of Dark Science!" 11:00:35 yeah thanks 11:02:02 I like how the "next comic eta" tends to just increase by a month either a few days after or before that next month begins 11:05:04 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 11:07:22 forget the 80's, i submit that the 2010's do not exist 11:08:20 cpressey: they will cease to exist when the WSJ publishes an article about esolangs 11:08:27 so shachaf, what do you do there in the bay area reality bubble 11:09:11 are you a maker 11:09:25 he works at y combinator startups 11:10:31 cpressey: a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer... 11:11:13 elliott: you're right, he works at y combinator startups 11:11:34 cpressey: help 11:11:36 what's going on 11:11:51 not everything needs to be explainable 11:13:35 (important editorial note: even though i use the word "y'all", i am not a southerner. i just don't like that "standard" english doesn't distinguish between second person singular and second person plural. also sometimes useful: "yonder") 11:13:53 I use "y'all" too. 11:13:57 Sometimes "all y'all". 11:14:00 @en yonder 11:14:02 *** "yonder" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" 11:14:02 yonder 11:14:02 adv 1: at or in an indicated (usually distant) place (`yon' is 11:14:02 archaic and dialectal); "the house yonder"; "scattered 11:14:02 here and yon"- Calder Willingham [syn: {yonder}, {yon}] 11:14:04 [3 @more lines] 11:14:28 this, that, and yonder 11:14:40 less useful than y'all in chat, admittedly 11:14:53 cpressey: have you tried saying "y'all" in cornwall yet 11:14:55 it may go badly 11:16:35 cpressey: when did you suddenly find time to waste in irc 11:17:14 quintopia: when the wsj guy wanted to interview me and i decided this was the only appropriate venue for that 11:17:24 cpressey: I'm glad you came. 11:17:33 Polish has ty for second singular and wy for second plural 11:17:33 This place is much better with you around. 11:18:04 why would the wsj want to interview you 11:18:17 why would wsj readers be interested 11:19:46 You gotta grow the mushrooms in something. 11:21:32 quintopia: did you read http://catseye.tc/wsj.html -- he persisted though -- i gather he thinks it would make a great quirky "who'd a thunk it" human interest piece 11:23:30 shachaf: i will likely not be here as frequently/continually after this event has passed, just so you're aware 11:23:44 cpressey: Sad. 11:23:49 cuts into my furry fanart time 11:23:49 cpressey: Will you be anywhere else? 11:24:14 Other than Hexham/Finland/Cornwall/whatever. 11:24:23 i guess we'll see 11:24:34 i'll get the wsj guy to convince cpressey to stay 11:24:38 that's my plan 11:25:17 cpressey: By the way, I initially came here due to an interest in esoteric languages. 11:25:23 I lost the interest after that. 11:25:33 alternatively i'll go down to cornwall and spread the word about modules 11:25:43 I didn't really lose the interest. 11:25:48 It's just not active. 11:26:07 now i have 11:26:12 read it 11:26:17 and you nailed it 11:27:59 cpressey: Your email was so good I sent the link to someone. 11:29:29 shachaf: may i ask who 11:29:33 Using the e-mail up to the "RATS" bit as the article itself would work well IMO 11:30:10 cpressey: You may ask but I probably won't answer. Sorry. :-( 11:30:21 quintopia: if he thinks it'll make a good human interest story, joke's on him, i'm far from convinced that any of us are human 11:31:04 cpressey: I'm definitely human. 11:31:25 My parents checked shortly after I was born. 11:31:44 zzo38 may be the most human. k think he should definitely be the one doing the interview 11:33:23 i did try to pass the torch to him, but he declined; and the timing might not work for him being here, not if it's going to be tomorrow anyway 11:37:38 cpressey: i think the problem is more in the "interest" part of "human interest story" 11:38:33 elliott: the subject is definitely occasionally interesting to us nonhumans here in #esoteric 11:41:54 it's not UNinteresting to be informed that, oh yes, those languages that people use to program computers? well some folks make some really weird ones. of course, some folks make gigantic sculptures of tractors out of empty milk cartons, too. 11:42:57 if you're a programmer, otoh, and you actually have thought about programming, and know some words for programming concepts, then you can get to the interesting things - IF that's your interest. 11:44:15 cpressey: Can you fix my sleep, by the way? 11:44:23 cpressey: so, now that you are retired you are going to donate your riches to promising young esolangers right 11:44:26 charity and all that 11:44:38 elliott: The lens fund isn't enough for you? 11:44:48 shachaf: probably not elliott: probably not 11:44:52 Are there any dependently-typed esolangs? 11:45:11 cpressey: reconsider. on the latter account only 11:54:33 oh btw hi Deewiant 11:54:39 hi 11:54:45 You're not Deewiant 11:54:56 Who? 11:55:03 You 11:55:09 Are you talking to yourself? 11:55:24 I doubt it 12:01:14 -!- carado has joined. 12:07:21 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:08:21 -!- boily has joined. 12:09:11 boily: you have to ask the wsj guy The Question. 12:09:20 just letting you know. 12:09:28 boily: What's The Question? 12:09:33 we have somebody from the wsj here? 12:10:05 boily: well, we will. tentatively tomorrow at 9 pm UTC, or so I hear. 12:10:18 shachaf: the one I constantly nag you with, and to which elliott is the least coöperative. 12:10:22 uh, wait, is it 8 or 10 pm BST 12:10:30 BST? 12:10:51 `? BST 12:10:53 BST? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 12:11:07 oh well. kernel upgrade. 12:11:09 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 12:12:09 Boiled Standard Time. 12:12:59 -!- boily has joined. 12:16:50 shachaf: by the way, I think now is a good time to ask you the The Question: what are your approximative geographic coördinates, and body weigh? 12:18:00 british summer time 12:18:59 boily: What's with diæreses? 12:19:04 This is the WSJ, not the New Yorker. 12:19:18 hey cpressey can you get us a New Yorker interview 12:19:30 Can you get #esoteric on the cover of Time, please? 12:19:44 shachaf: I was informed that it's a longstanding tradition of this channel. 12:19:54 Hmm. 12:19:55 boily: British summer time 12:20:07 Which is GMT + 1 12:21:55 boily: Approximately: 0N 0W 0kg 12:22:16 But a few days I ago I mentioned my exact address in the channel. 12:22:43 `pastequotes shachaf 12:22:48 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32467 12:22:58 oh hm. 12:23:03 `pastelogs shachaf 12:23:17 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26557 12:23:45 `pastelogs 2013-05.*?shachaf 12:24:02 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15168 12:24:16 AAAAAURGH! 12:25:50 `bienvenue cpressey 12:25:52 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found 12:26:06 hm. looks like my translation of `welcome disappeared... 12:26:13 `tervetuloa boily 12:26:14 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tervetuloa: not found 12:26:22 boily: Are you Belgian? 12:27:59 shachaf: I'm as non-belgian than Koen_. 12:28:12 as non-belgian than Koen_? 12:28:15 I beg to differ 12:28:29 boily's an american belgian 12:28:38 * boily facepalms... 12:28:49 in fact, I'm one CD away from cpressey. 12:38:24 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:39:31 -!- heroux has joined. 12:43:30 http://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/2013/05/27/systemd-survey-results.html "Top concerns -- 4. I have a problem with systemd upstream and/or Lennart in particular" 12:45:09 fizzie: concern 2 is a good one, and one I didn't know about too. 12:47:12 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:55:18 -!- heroux has joined. 12:56:07 alls i know is, right now, 4PM in NY = 9PM in GB 12:56:25 well obviously not RIGHT right now. this time of year 12:57:02 http://www.worldtimezone.com/ 12:58:41 oh, shiny! 12:59:11 it looks like there are little bits of greenland where it just jumps 2 timezones 13:01:59 Is there much recorded music whose copyright has expired? 13:03:58 Tue 28 May 14:03:57 BST 2013 13:09:05 mar mai 28 09:08:58 EDT 2013 13:26:58 i like how iran decides to be halfway between two timezones 13:28:12 (there was a point at which the uk was seriously considering permanently switching to UTC+1, but this was vetoed by scotland) 13:33:19 Phantom_Hoover: wow 13:33:22 you fucking ruined it 13:33:25 or would it still have dst 13:33:34 dst is evil. 13:43:45 I've generally used something that I think was timeanddate.com for across-time-zone scheduling. 13:45:39 The "abolish DST in Finland" petition is currently #7 (of the active ones) when ranked by signatures on the official Finnish "petitions to the gummint" page. 13:47:04 (16607 signatures; 50k are needed before the parliament is obligated to... "process" one; they've been collecting since Dec 3, 2012; it closes Jun 3, 2013; they're so not going to make it.) 13:47:10 there should be something like "Tee sanat helpompi ymmärtää." 13:47:39 That should presumably be more like "tee sanoista helpompia ymmärtää." 13:49:13 does finland even *have* daylight 13:49:40 does finland even 13:50:01 "Let gays marry" is the only one with >50k (151644) votes. (Currently they have a thing called "registered partnership" that's missing some features of "real marriage" that I can't quite remember. 13:50:10 ) 13:50:12 Yes. 13:50:55 And the sun is shining and it's like 24 °C (75 °F for you funyuns) outside. 13:52:09 ~metar EFHK 13:52:14 Aw. 13:52:27 Well, it is, still. 13:53:38 In the summer, we've got more daylight we know what to do with, you could even say. 13:53:54 (I understand some people find it hard to sleep here or something?) 13:54:46 "You need a certain type of curtain. Like WWII blackout curtains. I was in Helsinki for summer, the hotel did not have adequate curtains and I'm already a light sleeper. I did not have fun." --Internet. 13:56:21 Time to go shobbing. -> 13:57:24 fizzie: oh, sorry. please wait a few moments while I summon some deepsea creature... ♪ 13:57:35 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:57:46 Never mind, it's going to say 22 and prove I'm a big liar. 13:57:53 ~metar EFHK 13:57:53 ~metar EFHK 13:57:53 EFHK 281350Z 09014KT CAVOK 22/04 Q1016 NOSIG 13:57:54 EFHK 281350Z 09014KT CAVOK 22/04 Q1016 NOSIG 13:57:55 ... 13:57:58 :D 13:58:24 That's still quite hot! 13:58:31 fizzie: and about that plural thing, see, even gtranslate's confused! 13:58:35 ~metar CYUL 13:58:35 CYUL 281300Z 14003KT 30SM FEW240 14/06 A3020 RMK CI1 SLP226 13:58:45 same here. 14 above zero! can you imagine! 13:58:53 (stupid canadian weather. *grmbl*) 13:59:32 We're going to do our South-of-France/Switzerland trip real soon now, and at the moment it seems to be colder there than here, which is rather unlikely. 13:59:53 ~metar LFMN 13:59:54 LFMN 281330Z 17004KT 140V200 9999 FEW025 SCT056 BKN083 17/11 Q1008 NOSIG 14:00:48 So sad. Well, -> 14:03:52 ~duck shobbing 14:03:53 --- No relevant information 14:03:56 ~duck well 14:03:57 For the song of the same name by Frankie Goes to Hollywood, see here. 14:04:03 ... 14:05:51 thanks 14:06:21 ~metar KMRB 14:06:21 KMRB 281353Z 07003KT 10SM FEW055 OVC100 14/12 A3017 RMK AO2 RAB31E45 SLP214 P0000 T01440122 14:09:24 ~duck KMRB 14:09:24 --- No relevant information 14:09:43 boily: near Harper's Ferry WV 14:10:22 quintopia: hi! 14:10:29 I'm just missing your body weigh now :D 14:10:31 sup 14:10:38 well 14:10:44 uh 14:10:54 you dont know where i live 14:11:14 just an educated guess. 14:11:40 what's your guess 14:11:44 KMRB. 14:11:59 not even close 14:12:02 darn. 14:13:55 i would also like to know my body weight 14:14:02 there is no scale here 14:14:38 -!- nycs has joined. 14:17:09 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:17:20 -!- glogbackup has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:17:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 14:18:02 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:18:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:18:03 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:18:03 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:18:04 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:18:04 -!- comex has quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds). 14:18:07 -!- comex` has joined. 14:18:10 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 14:18:18 -!- nycs has changed nick to `^_^v. 14:18:26 -!- Lymia has joined. 14:18:26 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host). 14:18:26 -!- Lymia has joined. 14:18:29 -!- comex` has changed nick to comex. 14:18:31 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:18:43 -!- sivoais has joined. 14:55:51 -!- jsvine has joined. 15:03:15 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:06:24 `relcome jsvine 15:06:27 ​jsvine: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 15:06:53 Hi, and thanks for the welcome! 15:06:53 jsvine: I got your email, 4PM EDT tomorrow (basically, 24h from now) is confirmed. 15:07:23 oh wait, timezone: I meant 29 hr from now. 15:13:57 Welcome message has a . in the link, fail 15:28:06 molpysnakes. after ~728 pages, the thread is still going strong. I am vaguely disturbed. 15:58:41 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:08:12 -!- abumirqaan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:12 -!- ggherdov has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:12 -!- iamcal__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:15 -!- ssue_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:10:52 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:14:42 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:15:52 -!- conehead has joined. 16:27:03 -!- Tritonio has joined. 16:29:40 -!- jsvine has joined. 16:36:04 -!- zzo38 has joined. 16:38:25 `relcome jsvine 16:38:28 ​jsvine: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:45:49 oh we already relcomed jsvine 16:45:54 i guess i wasn't looking 16:48:22 I fear relcoming might be a relude to rickraining 16:51:30 hopefully he hasn't made any brainfuck derivatives 16:51:53 rickraining... or rickrolling 16:52:31 rickraining, when rick astleys rain from the sky 16:52:56 cpressey, I hope we give rickrolling up. Those who still do it let society down. I'll run away and desert any friend who does it. 16:53:47 Taneb: according to wikipedia, "The meme has helped to revive Astley's career." how can that be a bad thing? 16:55:37 List of ideas gives ideas about logic of type systems, such as fuzzy logic, and "type correct unless type Y is also used", or making exceptions with logic. How would you do these things? 16:56:13 hamfistedly. 16:56:44 zzo38: shachaf asked earlier if there were any dependently typed esolangs, though 16:57:47 i don't think there are. it's a bit hard to implement, and, being an active research area, a bit hard to figure out good ways to fiddle with it 16:57:57 try every dependently-typed language amirite 17:00:45 I think recursive triggers is a useful feature of SQL, isn't it? 17:01:11 What are your opinions of writing RPG computer games in SQL? SQL seems not a bad programming language for doing so. 17:04:14 hmm... are there any database engines that can do I/O in stored procedures? i've never thought about even trying that 17:05:27 Well, you could have external functions for doing I/O. 17:05:39 Or virtual table modules. 17:09:00 i'll be content with whatever method, as long as i can run an EXPLAIN PLAN that reports the optimal method for getting out of the dungeon alive. 17:10:46 I don't find stored procedures to be a useful feature of SQL (and SQLite doesn't use it anyways). The flow control of stored procedures doesn't seem necessary either; but one thing I have done is to make a virtual table module containing all 64-bit integers, and using this to make counted loops. 17:11:35 cpressey: that's easy. you grab the orb, teleport like crazy until you land right on top of a staircase, then get killed anyway by the ungodly amounts of major demons and demon lords and liches that spawned while you were teleporting. 17:12:24 I don't mean a roguelike game, though (although that may be possible too). 17:12:58 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:16:28 zzo38: could it be a RPG with clowns? what would be some good clown stats? 17:16:43 SQLite has only FOR EACH ROW triggers and not FOR EACH STATEMENT triggers. I don't know why FOR EACH STATEMENT triggers would be useful anyways. SQLite also doesn't have updateable views; views are read-only unless there is a trigger to tell it what to do when it is written. I think using triggers like this is a more useful way, and I have created write-only views for this purpose. 17:17:26 cpressey: I suppose it could, although I don't know the stats; anyways, what stats are available and what to use also depend on the rules of the game. 17:19:08 -!- iamcal__ has joined. 17:20:20 A feature that SQLite does not have (and I don't know if any other SQL engines have) is views that can be overridden with other views and then restored. 17:29:32 Some things, such as making triggers that create and drop triggers, can be faked using existing features, though. 17:34:07 -!- abumirqaan has joined. 17:34:17 Do you know any Verilog programming? 17:36:33 -!- kallisti has joined. 17:36:34 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 17:36:34 -!- kallisti has joined. 17:39:58 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:09 @tell zzo38 I do. 17:41:09 Consider it noted. 17:50:47 boily: i'm sure he'll remember the context for that 17:51:09 -!- ssue_ has joined. 17:52:28 cpressey: that's far from the worse @tell I did. 17:52:49 `pastelogs boily.*?@tell 17:53:16 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4006 17:54:15 I have fond memories of «2012-12-21.txt:19:40:46: @tell taneb bananas, mangos, kiwifruit, korean, nostradamus.». 17:54:58 yeah i was just going to say, that's kind of a fascinating link, right there. 17:55:34 tho I'm ashamed to say that I have no clue in fungot what I was reminding him about. 17:55:34 boily: must think of a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win! 17:55:43 ^style c64 17:55:43 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 17:56:43 fizzie: that fungot flowchart that you found, is it worth scanning in? maybe HackEgo could produce a link to it, as its knowledge of fungot. 17:56:43 cpressey: o the input/ output functions. by setting this bit to 1 17:57:14 fungot: don't keep me in suspense! 17:57:14 cpressey: it is important to affect the printing of shifted characters. 17:57:19 better 17:57:44 et voilà. the Truth was Unfold, and the Printing was Shifted in Character. 17:58:24 -!- surma has joined. 17:59:53 `welcom surma 17:59:55 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcom: not found 17:59:58 `welcome surma 18:00:01 surma: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 18:09:18 cpressey: It's printed out from a GraphViz-generated image, scanning it in would be kind of a "wooden table" thing to do. 18:12:51 -!- elieser224 has joined. 18:13:21 bah, and here i had a romantic notion of a hurriedly-scrawled diagram in pencil with lots of things crossed out 18:13:45 -!- elieser224 has left. 18:15:51 cpressey: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png or without the "small" if you don't mind a 7485x15016 image. 18:15:52 fizzie: gosub200 sprite shape, which normally determines which of these routines can be displayed in another graphics mode is to check the truth of both operands are compared by first pokeing petascii characters, with each function call. 18:16:36 It's not even a high-level graph, it's just an alternative representation of the source code, automatically generated. 18:17:14 (With some heuristics for the static analysis of jump tables and such.) 18:18:35 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:23:26 RFC 2132 has some unexpected options. you can specify default IRC servers in a DHCP packet! 18:23:35 s/73/74/ 18:23:55 s/s\/73\/74\/// 18:26:17 s/.*// #there goes everything 18:28:33 -!- sprocklem has joined. 18:29:11 fizzie: that way is not feng shui. you have to go with the flow of /s and \s. 18:29:23 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:02 If you’re escaping slashes in your regexp, you’re using the wrong quote character. 18:36:35 -!- ggherdov has joined. 18:41:02 -!- elieser2241 has joined. 18:41:13 -!- elieser2241 has left. 18:43:52 Oh god 18:43:55 Oh god oh god 18:44:05 I now have Amnesia: The Dark Descent installed 18:44:07 what is it 18:44:13 have the chinese returned for their graphics card 18:44:36 No, I'm just crap at the whole horror genre 18:45:16 Hey, I'm sure you people know these things: when there's a bird that (according to the spec sheet^W^W^WWikipedia) lays "three to five eggs", do they all plop out almost at once, or is there a gap? (Our kitchen window nest now has an egg, but only one.) 18:45:44 fizzie: at once. 18:45:54 i'd wager it depends on the bird? 18:46:08 boily: Why is there just one then? Is there something WORNG? 18:46:48 fizzie: The bird explodes, only 3 to 5 eggs remaining, and then the bird reforms mid-air 18:47:10 FreeFull: That sounds more like an angry bird or something. 18:47:13 the bird lays one egg, then that hatches into 5 eggs 18:57:27 taneb: It’s an awesome game. 18:57:43 ion, but I'm crap at horror stuff! 19:00:35 Taneb: you should try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_(video_game). it is relaxing. 19:00:51 Taneb: Boo! 19:04:13 Aaaah! 19:04:44 Okay, yes, that seems pretty crap. 19:05:19 -!- Bike has joined. 19:07:45 -!- elieser224 has joined. 19:07:48 Taneb, you just have to make sure you play it the correct way 19:07:52 -!- elieser224 has left. 19:23:17 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:34:36 fizzie: romantic notions of scrawlings notwithstanding, that is one pretty diagram. 19:36:17 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:37:22 but fungot, are you sure you're cool with there being nude portraits of yourself online? 19:37:22 cpressey: for machine language 19:37:59 -!- Bike has joined. 19:38:10 that seems like a good cause 19:44:07 -!- MindlessDrone has joined. 19:47:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:48:11 -!- elieser2241 has joined. 19:48:24 -!- elieser2241 has left. 19:48:24 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:49:12 Taneb are you a fan of glee 19:49:23 I am not 19:49:41 Why do you ask 19:50:06 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:50:29 i was tumblrstalking you and i came across worrying evidence 19:51:26 also have i ordered you to watch farscape because you totally should 19:51:47 are you a comic book character 19:52:11 no otherwise i would be talking in bold caps 19:52:31 uh, small caps 19:54:31 Phantom_Hoover: I find your use of bold disturbing. 19:54:47 underline like a man! 19:56:08 how do you even do underlines anyway 19:57:24 «Ctrl-C U» in weechat. there is B for bold, and C for colours, and some other letters which I don't know the use of. 19:58:28 reverse video is heroic 20:01:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:02:42 Bike: I think this is for reverse. 20:02:48 how can any value ever be less than an epsilon AHHHHH BRAIN BREAKING <-- half an epsilon hth 20:04:34 "A chat on #esoteric works for me." <-- i have a bad feeling about this. 20:04:54 unless you already finished it, that would be good hth 20:04:57 -!- Tritonio has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:05:14 -!- Tritonio has joined. 20:07:00 Phantom_Hoover, why are you tumblr-stalking me 20:07:06 My tumblr is like really boring 20:07:07 i forget 20:07:26 imo Tumblr-stack Phantom_Hoover 20:07:27 is it jsvine 20:07:27 probably in an attempt to gain further insights into the person i allow to make death threats in my name over the internet 20:08:06 Phantom_Hoover: i hear Taneb has a really boring tumblr i suggest you fake a more interesting one hth 20:08:28 -!- olsner has joined. 20:08:53 Taneb, yes, imo give me control of your tumbl 20:08:54 r 20:09:33 Phantom_Hoover: he's an evil overlord in training what more do you need to know hth 20:09:39 please 20:09:44 can you imagine Taneb doing anything evil 20:10:01 he'd be some kind of terrifyingly cheery enforcer 20:10:23 I'll have you know, that I can be very evil when I choose to be 20:10:29 really Taneb 20:10:30 really 20:10:52 Phantom_Hoover: i don't see how cheeriness contradicts evil hth 20:11:08 oerjan, have you ever seen Taneb be mean to anyone 20:11:09 ever 20:11:16 For example, I am slowly undermining the credibility of someone I met on IRC by creating a Tumblr account that caricatures him while providing no suggestion that it isn't his 20:11:31 For no real reason other than that I felt like it one day 20:11:34 http://www.jsvine.com/ this is probably the journalist 20:12:03 we are pearls before svine 20:12:07 cheerful evil is possibly the worst/best kind of evil 20:12:25 How's that for evil, Phantom_Hoover 20:13:05 -!- sprocklem has joined. 20:13:43 this is one person who probably heard of us through the grapevine. in song. 20:14:25 Oh, hey, yep, that's me. 20:14:36 eek 20:14:54 I think I have a dusty tumblr somewhere too... 20:15:12 shall i just ban him preemptively 20:15:52 jsvine, as you can tell, we are a community who, although primarily linked by esoteric programming languages, share a wide variety of interests 20:16:03 Including rampant silliness 20:16:13 Seems so. I'd expect nothing less. 20:16:21 jsvine: oops, didn't see you in /names, sorry. 20:16:44 ("pearls before svine" is amazing; I've spent most my life around punners, and never heard that one before.) 20:17:37 you'll get nowhere with your flattery 20:19:17 I will starve before my food is done :( 20:19:50 olsner: is this some kind of cheese that needs to mature for 3 months? 20:20:15 oerjan: no, but it needs to be baked in the oven 20:20:20 or maybe surströmming 20:20:22 ... for 3 months 20:20:25 ah. 20:20:48 jsvine, can I ask why you chose to interview this pretty obscure sub-sub-subculture? 20:21:08 Absolutely, Taneb. 20:21:25 Why did you choose to interview this pretty obscure sub-sub-subculture? 20:21:34 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:21:49 this is where Taneb surreptitiously (is this the right word?) interviews jsvine and puts it on Phantom_Hoover's tumblr 20:21:51 A few reasons: 20:22:18 we already did a "who reports the reporter" joke oerjan 20:22:18 - esolangs and esolangers seem to have a sense of humor largely absent from commercial/practical programming/langauges 20:22:32 oerjan: surely something bad happens if you try to interview a journalist, like putting google into google 20:22:36 Bike: darn i'm late on today am i not 20:23:00 - I like puzzles, and esolangs seem like a fun kind of puzzle 20:23:00 i've read some cool interviews with jouranlists 20:23:20 not the kind who interviews some dorks on irc, though, unless those dorks are on interpol wanted lists 20:23:47 are you telling me we are not on interpol wanted lists 20:24:40 - I think the idea that you can program via pictures (i.e., in Piet) might surprise/delight readers 20:24:49 now that was a boring result, i think google could at least have sneaked in a link to recursion 20:25:09 - I think readers will also be curious why people choose to spend time writing/using "useless" languages 20:25:14 oerjan: well, there's always my coördinate list. do you want to be on it? 20:25:21 did you know the piet article was just deleted from wikipedia :( 20:25:37 oerjan: oh. sorry. you're already there, although I'm missing your body weigh. 20:25:37 oerjan: no, I didn't! 20:25:38 it's clear now 20:25:52 jsvine didn't come here by chance 20:25:56 it was destiny that sent him 20:26:14 destiny and needing a bit of fluff to write about 20:26:18 though those are some pretty good reasons 20:26:20 boily: i thought i said i was 82 kg or thereabouts, although i think i've put on a bit again since then 20:26:34 oerjan: you can always google "recursion" 20:26:39 -!- Tritonio has joined. 20:27:05 oerjan, do you have a link to the deletion discussion on wikipedia? 20:27:08 jsvine: just so you know, there are professionals doing similarly weird things. http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749 is my favorite example 20:27:08 Bike: ah yes, they still do that one 20:28:02 oerjan: must have missed it last time. thanks for the update! 20:28:16 jsvine, hehe, Piet was got me into esoteric programming 20:28:18 jsvine: just a moment 20:28:25 oerjan: i like "do a barrel roll" more than i should 20:28:31 PSA: if anyone wants to email me privately, I'm at jsvine@gmail.com; PGP key on jsvine.com 20:28:35 is it professional to ask him/her/it the The Question? 20:28:35 jsvine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Piet_(programming_language) 20:28:44 oerjan: awesome, thanks 20:28:46 I once wrote a really broken IRC bot in Piet, but I've lost the source 20:29:13 boily, it's clear from his website that the answer to the Question would be "no" 20:29:22 Taneb: ha, amazing — that sounds like an insanely complex Piet program, no? 20:29:40 probably not a pretty one though 20:29:40 Taneb: oh well. 20:29:45 ok, ok, what's The Question? 20:30:00 "Do you live in Hexham?" 20:30:01 oh, hm 20:30:03 ^src 20:30:10 how do you get fungot's source again 20:30:11 Bike: it is left out, the logical and function. peek is a simple software routine. ( see the entry for the filter and the chart ( figure 3-1) will contain all the words and operators for the convenience of the device number 20:30:11 Taneb: eh, no. but I think that Version will do. 20:30:17 ^source 20:30:17 http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 20:30:17 piet programs tend to be weird spindly webs of static rather than boxy mondrian pictures 20:30:30 jsvine: this bot's written in befunge as you can see there 20:31:04 Yeah, Pietbot was one of the ugliest Piet programs going 20:31:08 I sort of gave up on it 20:31:13 so, jsvine, I'll have to ask you the The Lite Version of The Question: do you live in hexham? 20:31:45 brb, gotta google the answer 20:32:44 (Hexham's a small town in the north-east of England. Not really significant to anything to do with programming except for a weird coincidence in this channel) 20:33:29 `? hexham 20:33:31 Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham. 20:34:22 I'm clearly out of my depth here. 20:35:13 Oh, well. 20:35:17 jsvine: `? searches in the collective wisdom db. it has some... interesting definitions in it. 20:35:19 you haven't even talked to zzo yet 20:35:23 `? hexham 20:35:26 Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham. 20:35:35 `? ham 20:35:37 ham? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:35:44 `? hex 20:35:46 hex? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:35:49 `run ls wisdom 20:35:51 As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead. 20:36:09 `? Piet 20:36:10 Piet? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 20:36:13 `learn Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places. 20:36:14 `? brainfuck 20:36:14 `pastewisdom 20:36:18 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/ 20:36:21 I knew that. 20:36:24 brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. 20:36:50 `? northumberland 20:36:52 Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE! 20:37:11 ...I've got a feeling I wrote that, and "NORTHUMBRAINS" was a typo 20:37:13 IT STAYS 20:37:28 `? america 20:37:30 This wisdom entry had to be removed due to a DMCA takedown notice. 20:37:46 `banach-tarski 20:37:47 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: banach-tarski: not found 20:37:50 `? banach-tarski 20:37:51 `run echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | colorize > wisdom/piet 20:37:52 ​"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski". 20:37:55 bash: colorize: command not found 20:37:58 oops 20:38:11 oh right they renamed it because of the spelling war 20:38:16 but to what, hm 20:38:52 `run ls bin/*rain* 20:38:54 bin/rainbow \ bin/rainwords 20:38:57 colurice 20:39:01 `run echo "Piet is a really colorful programming language." | rainwords > wisdom/piet 20:39:06 No output. 20:39:14 `? piet 20:39:15 `? piet 20:39:18 ​Piet is a really colorful programming language. 20:39:18 ​Piet is a really colorful programming language. 20:39:22 Yaaaay! 20:40:26 interesting bot 20:40:29 jsvine, perhaps the reason why esolangs seem to have a sense of humour absent from other languages is that silly languages tend to be classified as esoteric 20:40:47 I like that explanation 20:40:59 However, serious languages are not without their silliness, for example Python's import antigravity 20:41:00 Are there any silly languages not classified as esoteric? 20:41:24 jsvine, none spring to mind 20:41:31 php *runs away* *notices no one following* 20:41:57 jsvine: forth has that speical nostalgic and weird feeling to it. 20:42:00 do you guys consider J an esoteric or a serious language? 20:42:13 definitely serious 20:42:18 it's esoteric in that it's weird, it's serious in that it is seriously intended and used 20:42:18 (And who named these things "esoteric" in the first place?) 20:42:23 definitely sesotericious. 20:42:27 that is, uh 20:42:30 a good question 20:42:38 was it cpressey? 20:42:44 jsvine: i had a webpage once titled "Esoteric Topics in Computer Programming" 20:43:12 cpressey: and the rest is history? 20:43:31 Were there other competing names at the time? 20:43:32 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages is quite informative 20:43:42 the rest would have been history if the webpages hadn't disappeared off the web. 20:43:50 well, i ran a listserv which also went under that name, I think, and, yes. 20:43:52 Phantom_Hoover: awesome, thanks 20:44:24 oh, that article inspired me to look up knowlton back when i was in school 20:44:33 i read his paper on l6 and found out that nowadays he makes paintings out of shells 20:44:51 The word "esoteric" was used only in the sense of "obscure because only a handful of people have the right combination of patience and interest to care enough to know it" 20:44:56 And reasons non-esoteric programmers seem to be less silly include: a) some of the silly ones end up here and b) most programmers are doing it for a living rather than fun 20:44:59 there's kind of a dark age between the 70s when intercal was invented and 1993 when the three prototypical modern esolangs were made 20:45:07 http://www.kenknowlton.com/ 20:45:12 which, I think, is how the word "esoteric" is usually used in the context of computers 20:45:28 What would someone have called, say, INTERCAL, before it was called "esoteric"? 20:45:44 well, intercal's a parody 20:45:50 they just called it intercal, there was no need for a categorical name 20:45:53 so they might just say that 20:45:58 I'd call it dada. 20:46:14 "it's that parody of cobol or something, right" 20:46:18 "fuckin nerds" 20:46:37 and yeah, it was primarily a joke riffing on existing language designs 20:47:01 interesting — "dada" suggests an comparison to art... which, seems intentional, no? 20:47:27 "fuckin nerds" works, too 20:47:29 esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s 20:47:47 jsvine: i consider programs and programming languages to be artist media, but that might just be me. 20:47:49 wait, wrong surrealism 20:47:52 *artistic 20:48:13 Phantom_Hoover: what do you think happened between the 70s and '93? 20:48:17 `addquote esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s 20:48:21 1041) esolangs were originally developed to protest socialism in italy in the 30s 20:48:22 whether this is "art" or not is a HUGE can of worms that we don't reeeeallly need to open up, not now 20:48:44 I like cans of worms. 20:48:54 comparing esolangs with tendencies towards automatic production in art could be kind of interesting, especially if you bring in self-proclaimed artists like knowlton 20:49:02 I'd say some, but not all esolangs are art 20:49:14 jsvine, well there were other jokes along the lines of intercal, but afaik none of them were fleshed out into actual languages 20:49:17 especially if you bring in that one guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Belousov-Zhabotinsky_Reaction.gif 20:49:38 Are there any esolangs in art museum collections? (Not that they're the ultimate arbiter of art.) MoMA put the "@" symbol in their collection a couple of years ago. 20:49:48 Taneb: I'd also say some non-esolangs are art (that is, (non-eso)langs) 20:50:13 jsvine, I do not believe so, however I am not sure 20:50:18 elliott: the MoMA people are going to be _so_ confused when you do that search-and-replace 20:50:27 jsvine: not that I'm aware of. and I kind of looked, sort of. I know MoMA has video games, too (in design, if not art) 20:50:31 *global search-and-replace 20:51:09 Bike: hmm, "Made using self-written Java program." (I would like it if that meant that the java program wrote itself) 20:51:35 Seems like Piet (for its visual-ness) or Brainfuck (for its historic aspects) would be a good fit for a museum. Any other candidates? 20:51:43 adamatzky, that's it 20:51:51 Befunge, maybe Glass? 20:52:01 Eodermdrome!!!!!! 20:52:05 jsvine: a 2d language could be manipulated by viewers, would be a fun interactive exhibit 20:52:16 Yeah, definitely Eodermdrome 20:52:38 That's the first I've heard of Eodermdrome. Taking a look. 20:52:54 also, I get the feeling the journalist is probably reading the logs right now. <-- now that's just paranoia hth 20:53:07 the eodermdrome article is, er, not very clear about how it works 20:53:37 The thing about Eodermdrome, is that it is NP-complete to interpret 20:53:48 As far as I am aware, nobody has managed it 20:53:58 Taneb: technically not, because of the 26 letter limit 20:54:16 oerjan, oh, really? 20:54:23 Taneb: wasn't that the interpreter that someone finnished? 20:54:32 it's not NP-complete to check for a finite set of subgraphs 20:54:50 maybe we should just have an eodermdrome self-interpreter without a real interpreter. 20:54:51 The thing about Eodermdrome, is that it is NP-complete to interpret 20:54:54 it's actually not 20:55:00 or well, it's P, etc. etc. 20:55:07 Well, I learn something every day 20:55:23 but doing it in polynomial time is boring and complicated 20:55:36 -!- sprocklem has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:55:58 maybe we should just have an eodermdrome self-interpreter without a real interpreter. 20:56:01 omg yes 20:56:21 oerjan: only the lines in hth. if you take the prime letters of each line, they'll reveal a very sombre and shocking secret. hth 20:56:31 Bike: i am not convinced an eodermdrome self-interpreter would fit in the 26 letter limit. it was hard enough to fit BCT. 20:56:57 oerjan, we've been over this, the spec doesn't say 'ascii' anywhere 20:56:59 eh, extend it to other alphabets then 20:57:17 It is pretty simple to make an Eodermdrone-like language with unbounded nodes 20:57:26 Phantom_Hoover: fine, fine, you can decide it allows unicode after you make a working interpreter of it 20:57:30 uuuuh, wait 20:57:34 Well, linear bounded 20:57:57 yeah you'd basically have to have a case for every single unicode character 20:58:05 someday, we'll even have a feather interpreter! 20:58:23 wait why do you need a case 20:58:43 ugh don't make me think about actually writing an interpreter for that fucking thing again 20:59:04 Phantom_Hoover: the initial graph is definitely the english alphabet fwiw 20:59:17 boily, some day, feather may have always existed 20:59:37 Bike, eodermdrome input works as a case analysis thing 21:00:11 you write () before a command and it'll only trigger if is at the start of the input buffer 21:00:16 Phantom_Hoover: also if you do an infinite alphabet it becomes NP-complete again hth 21:00:26 i never said infinite! 21:00:33 okay 21:00:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:00:52 ~metar CYUL 21:00:52 CYUL 282000Z 16013KT 30SM BKN180 OVC240 22/01 A3011 RMK AS6CI2 SLP197 DENSITY ALT 700FT 21:01:05 -!- nooodl_ has joined. 21:01:14 oerjan, also uh 21:01:16 no it doesn't 21:01:33 any given program will only have a finite number of match subgraphs 21:02:05 Phantom_Hoover: well a given program won't be NP-complete, although performing a step in an arbitrary program will be 21:02:16 jsvine: as you can see from the above, if esolangs are art, it kind of raises the bar for "art appreciation"... but even if you don't know anything about complexity theory, you can still look at a program and enjoy it just on a visual level. as a pretty abstract. especially if you like looking at ASCII. 21:03:30 cpressey: I like that. There are definitely some pleasing, and distinguishable, visual aspects to most the esolangs I've seen. 21:04:26 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:04:36 hi everyone 21:05:41 jsvine, that's an observation extensible to real languages, fwiw; cf. http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Wadlers_Law 21:06:16 `quote 152 21:06:17 152) syntax is the least important part of a programming language other than Python 21:06:36 `quote 155 21:06:38 155) there's a rather clear separation into the 99% of esolangs that are fun syntax ideas, and the 3% that someone actually put some thought into. 21:07:26 fascinating — as a newcomer, the easiest thing to grasp onto is the syntax 21:07:45 how do you identify that 3%? 21:08:04 I guess a quick way to see if an esolang idea is really just syntax-deep, is to see how easy it is to translate into other languages 21:08:09 first, we kill all the brainfuck derivatives... 21:08:10 something like Ook! looks quite different from BF 21:08:20 but you can translate between them pretty trivially 21:08:28 ais523: yes, but Ook is Ook. 21:08:29 I like that rule of thumb 21:08:35 meanwhile, if you're translating between, say, Underload and Brainfuck, it's a lot more difficult 21:08:51 possible, due to Turing-completeness, but the program typically gets a lot longer in the translation 21:09:09 and eodermdrome is extremely hard to translate into other languages, hence the lack of an interpreter 21:09:37 Phantom_Hoover: that explains the lack of a compiler, rather than the lack of an interpreter 21:09:49 some languages, like befunge-93, are quite easy to interpret 21:09:52 but nontheless hard to compile 21:10:15 ais523, i'd say for a sufficiently broad definition of 'translation' it applies to interpreters too 21:10:34 Take, for example, a language I created, Fueue, which was proved Turing-complete by a non-trivial way of translating Underload to Fueue 21:10:34 perhaps 21:10:43 now I want to design a language which is very hard to write a self-interpreter for 21:10:44 interpretation involves implementing concepts in one language in terms of another, after all 21:10:55 without being otherwise particularly difficult 21:11:19 well eodermdrome is applicable there as well! 21:11:21 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fueue#Computational_class 21:11:47 because the trickiest part in making a self-interpreter for it is dealing with the syntax/io mechanics 21:12:26 Hmm, what's going on here? 21:12:38 FreeFull, we're being interviews by jsvine 21:12:41 for some reason there's a journalist here 21:13:04 Phantom_Hoover: the immediate reason is easy enough to explain, cpressey refused to let him interview him except in #esoteric 21:13:15 Pretty much, yep. 21:13:28 I hope this interview will be heavily edited to cut out all the noise. 21:13:33 More of a conversation right now than an interview. 21:14:00 FreeFull: what? I can't hear you, I have an interview in my ear. 21:14:15 Where's the whisper button on this thing? 21:14:51 jsvine: to private message someone, do /query and their username 21:14:57 that'll open up a separate tag to PM them with 21:15:09 Oh, was just joking, unsuccessfully. 21:15:14 oh right 21:15:23 I'm used to people muddling up IRC with instant messaging 21:15:29 so I just mentally translated the terms 21:15:43 But anyone here should feel free to PM me if you want to chat privately. 21:18:12 Is anyone currently working on a new esolang? Doesn't necessarily have to be earth-shattering. I'm mostly just curious about the process. 21:18:44 it's kind-of quiet at the moment, the good ones can take years to work through 21:18:56 and after you've spent years working on one, you kind-of don't want to have anything to do with it any more 21:19:06 really, though, the big problem is having an idea 21:19:22 once you have one, working out the details can normally be done in a few hours, unless the idea is one that makes the details difficult 21:19:25 ais532: I know that feeling, on a shorter time-scale, with stories. 21:19:40 ais523: interesting! 21:19:56 some of my aborted projects had ideas like "regular expressions except Turing-complete", and "object oriented language that uses time travel in order to do inheritance" 21:20:28 ais523: Whoa. Abandoned why? 21:20:37 the first one, I couldn't even get the parser to work 21:20:40 which is a bad sign 21:20:47 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather 21:20:50 admittedly, it meant I was being held up on syntax problems, so I could theoretically work around that 21:20:51 (Note for innocent victims: Do not check OOTS because of that `olist) <-- HEY YOU KNOW I NEVER READ MORE THAN ONE LINE AHEAD 21:20:54 the second one, I don't like to tlak about 21:20:58 *talk about 21:21:11 i guess technically that would be zero in this case. 21:21:17 but the basic problem is that it's very hard to write a language entirely in terms of itself 21:21:29 oerjan: for bonus points, I checked OOTS a few minutes ago, for reasons completely unrelated to the `olist 21:21:33 basically I just check it manually now and again 21:21:37 ais523: Regular expressions except turing-complete sounds like perl 21:21:49 feather is kind of like an "inside joke" except i'm not sure how much of a "joke" it is 21:21:54 ~duck OOTS 21:21:54 The Order of the Stick is a comedic fantasy webcomic that satirizes pencil and paper role-playing games (particularly Dungeons & Dragons and its accompanying system, d20) through the continuing tale of the titular party of adventurers. 21:21:57 i only check it about once a week if there's no `olist 21:21:58 FreeFull: I'm not convinced Perl's a Turing-complete, except via using the "embed arbitrary Perl here" directives 21:22:28 nooodl_: I felt it was safer to let it become an inside joke, it reduces the odds I'll stupidly try to start working on it again 21:22:29 regular expressions except turing complete sounds like thue 21:22:32 s/arbitrary/mixed code and regexpes/ 21:22:36 Bike: no, I mean 21:22:43 It's easy to think up an idea for an esoteric programming language, it's a bit harder to execute well on it. 21:22:49 cyclexa had notation like (abc)^, which /added/ abc to the start of the input 21:22:50 Bike: but thue is string rewriting, not regexps 21:22:53 FreeFull, i'd argue the converse 21:22:55 and thus was equivalent to c^b^a^ 21:23:03 truly interesting ideas are pretty rare 21:23:11 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone). 21:23:18 I think you're both right 21:23:21 ais523 is one of the more creative here, which means he gets stuck on weird shit that hardly makes sense 21:23:23 ideas are easy, interesting ideas are hard 21:23:56 there are a few patterns I like that haven't been done to death nearly as much as BF derivatives, though 21:23:56 Bike: thue with regexps is pretty much sed 21:24:02 I on the other hand find it easy to make up a half-baked idea and write a spec and publish it 21:24:10 and sed's popular! see, victory 21:24:16 such as the "introduce an arbitrary operation with no obvious properties, then force people to do everything in terms of it" paradigm 21:24:18 Which means that few of the languages I have created are much good 21:24:21 FreeFull: I'm not convinced Perl's a Turing-complete, except via using the "embed arbitrary Perl here" directives <-- um you can do linked lists in perl, no? 21:24:29 oerjan: Perl's regexes 21:24:33 there was some elision in that line 21:24:33 ah. 21:24:42 I had an idea of a programming language where a syntax error would introduce new syntax based on seemingly random, but actually predictable rules 21:24:46 i got the elision in the wrong place 21:24:55 But I have no idea what good execution of that idea would be 21:25:05 oerjan: the typo didn't help 21:25:17 FreeFull: that's the opposite idea of one I had recently 21:25:18 Fueue and Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download (which, by the way, is the longest name for an esolang, to my knowledge) are pretty much my only two decent languages 21:25:24 a language where the syntax changes every time you run the interpreter 21:25:29 and as a result, programs have a half-life 21:25:33 FreeFull: what about, for example, the grammar expecting a =, but you dropped it and the next token is an (. so, from now on, it uses ( for assignements. 21:25:34 however, programs can also be self-modifying 21:25:46 boily: Too simple and inflexible 21:25:51 And Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is almost entirely unoriginal 21:25:52 so all long-lasting programs need to come with an AI that attemps to work out what's happened to the language, and change themselves to match 21:26:01 boily: And the beginning state wouldn't have an idea of assigment 21:26:11 FreeFull: indeed. how to improve, then? 21:26:26 ais523: sounds like DIT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_inheritance_theory) 21:26:28 ais523: that is *evil* 21:26:34 An interesting thing would be to be able to produce a header, that you can prefix any brainfuck program with to make it execute using this language 21:27:03 wasn't there some discussion a bit while ago about embedding multiple languages together, or something like that? 21:27:09 hmm, is that interesting or just a brainfuck interpreter? 21:27:14 Taneb, you know, i always thought the hair salon was owned by Real Fast Nora 21:27:25 olsner: it's not a brainfuck interpreter, it just looks like one. 21:27:46 Phantom_Hoover, no, it's Real Fast (Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster) Download 21:27:47 olsner: it is interesting if it can be done in general 21:27:53 things like the underlambda preprocessor are interesting, for instance 21:27:57 Taneb: no it's not 21:28:09 jsvine, I named the language after a page a spambot created on the wiki 21:28:32 olsner, elaborate? 21:29:03 the obviously correct parse is (Real Fast Nora)'s 21:29:29 time to sadly depart from this illustrious channel. adieu! 21:29:38 Bye, boily! 21:29:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: J'ai faim.). 21:29:42 the horse raced past the barn fell: a descriptivist retrospective 21:29:43 but yeah, thinking of a name is often difficult 21:29:47 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:29:48 so sometimes we borrow them fro mspambots 21:29:49 I'm thinking, you'd have a vm that runs the parser, and undefined instructions would modify some location in the vm's memory according to the rules at the time of execution 21:29:51 *from spambots 21:29:59 `? cpressey 21:30:01 cpressey? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 21:30:02 So you could arbitrarily rewrite the interpreter 21:30:09 `? ZOMGMODULES 21:30:10 ZOMGMODULES? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 21:30:24 FreeFull: oh, that's been done, I think 21:30:45 Emmental was even the featured article quite recently 21:30:58 that reminds me, it's not April any more, we should take Deadfish off the main page 21:31:50 `learn cpressey has invented more esolangs than you can shake a stick at. Also he's older than the universe hth. 21:31:55 I knew that. 21:31:59 ais523: What I'm thinking of would be a bit harder, more in the spirit of malborge I think 21:32:04 shachaf: SATISFIED? 21:32:10 oerjan, we need to talk about your use of hth as punctuation 21:32:10 FreeFull: most languages can be made arbitrarily difficult 21:32:15 there just normally isn't much of a point in doing so 21:32:30 It wouldn't be just straightforward metaprogramming 21:32:32 Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean punctuation there's a completely visible period after it 21:32:37 (hth!) 21:32:40 . 21:32:57 It'd be more like writing a C program that modifies the compiler in memory as it's being compiled 21:33:11 Obviously you couldn't do that with standard C 21:33:59 we need to give C++ templates I/O capabilities 21:34:03 then you could do it with C++ >:) 21:34:36 templates can output warnings 21:34:47 C++ doesn't need more features 21:35:10 I'm gonna be off now 21:35:12 Bye! 21:35:13 (but you need heaps of post-processing to reduce those warnings to the actual data you wanted output) 21:35:24 jsvine, good luck with the remainder of the "interview" 21:35:56 Taneb: thanks! I'll be lurking for the next few days. 21:36:01 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:36:04 i thought the interview was tomorrow and this was just us dicking around 21:36:05 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:36:14 jsvine: I got your email, 4PM EDT tomorrow (basically, 24h from now) is confirmed. <-- wait EVERYONE STOP TALKING it's too early 21:36:26 oerjan: we're just talking to someone who showed up in the channel 21:36:33 ah. 21:36:54 oerjan: besides, that's when the interview with cpressey starts, we're not in that interview 21:37:18 oerjan: Thanks. 21:37:18 Yep. I have an "official" interview with cpressey tomorrow on this channel. But I'd like to meet as many willing esolangers as possible. 21:37:28 (I'm guessing, since I missed the whole start of this) 21:37:33 `pastelogs dick|fuck|shit|stack 21:37:42 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1214 21:38:01 oh right there's an esolang with 'fuck' in it 21:38:12 jsvine: you are aware that cpressey thinks it's impossible to write an interesting article about esolangs for what he thinks your target audience is, right? 21:38:14 Bike: shocking 21:38:27 although it'd be amusing to prove him wrong 21:39:23 ok then i can skip the rest of the logs 21:39:45 ais523: Yep. He told me as much. Worth trying, though. And his definition of interesting is different than mine, or my editors', or our readers'. 21:40:02 yes 21:40:12 normally, I assume I know less about journalism than journalists do 21:40:12 «2004-06-11.txt:20:25:41: fuck. 2004-06-11.txt:20:34:06: FUCK» a storied history 21:40:23 Inevitably, you'll all be disappointed by the result! 21:40:24 who's the target audience anywho 21:40:54 Bike: financial analyzers, the kind who use haskell nowadays 21:41:12 The target audience is, broadly/vaguely, smart people who don't necessarily know programming and are curious about the world 21:41:56 vaguely indeed 21:42:36 i guess i have no idea who reads the wsj. rich people? whoever still reads newspapers? huffington post writers? total mystery 21:43:53 Take this with as many grains of salt as you like: the WSJ is the most widely-circulated newspaper in the U.S.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_States_by_circulation 21:43:54 cpressey: I hear that a dependent type system is actually not that difficult to implement. Someone keeps telling me I should read this one paper. 21:43:58 * shachaf knows nothing about it. 21:44:06 hi jsvine 21:44:07 ais523: now that you mentioned c++ and templates - a funny thing with template metaprogramming is that compilation seems easier than interpretation, a compiler pretty much looks like an interpreter 21:44:08 so, a lot of people 21:44:31 but an interpreter looks like crap, because putting values in types is messy 21:44:44 shachaf: hello 21:46:30 jsvine: hmm! i definitely would've guessed new york times would be on top. i know nothing about american newspapers though 21:47:36 jsvine: one thing I find interesting is that skill programming in weird / constrained languages is also useful for writing exploits for security holes 21:48:00 kmc: that *is* interesting. Examples? 21:48:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return-oriented_programming 21:48:56 yeah, the security angle is that most programs have locked down execution of code from outside 21:48:59 basically you write an exploit by stringing together fragments of the legitimate code of the program you're exploiting 21:49:05 so you have to craft your exploit entirely by cobbling together code that already exists 21:49:08 -!- mnoqy has joined. 21:50:10 Which is similar to how esolangs work? 21:50:28 similar in that it's convoluted and weird, is the idea, i believe 21:50:49 -!- mnoqy has quit (Client Quit). 21:50:55 it's like every executable you might want to exploit implicitly defines an esolang, and you write your exploit in that esolang 21:51:14 yeah, it's similar to esoprogramming because you don't have the tools you normally have when writing a program 21:51:18 you have to make do with what's available 21:51:19 if you want to dig into the technical details, start with the paper 'The Geometry of Innocent Flesh on the Bone: Return-into-libc without Function Calls (on the x86)' 21:51:30 Ah, yeah, that makes sense. 21:51:40 i'm happy to answer tech questions too (I don't know what your background is) 21:51:55 Huh, I'll take a look at that paper. 21:52:16 another example is, maybe your exploit does have the ability to inject new machine code, but it has to be free of null bytes, or even has to contain only alphanumeric ASCII 21:52:34 or every other pair of bytes needs to be 00 00 21:53:00 these constraints arise from the details of the bug you're exploiting; maybe the input is sanitized before it reaches the vulnerable code 21:53:02 I have program on here which, given an arbitrary file, outputs a DOS executable written entirely with printable characters that outputs that file 21:53:04 A bit on my background: I have no formal CS training, but have been programming (in boring languages like python, ruby and javascript) for a few years. I'm fascinated by CS theory, but grasp not enough of it. 21:53:06 just for fun 21:53:08 -!- mnoqy has joined. 21:53:09 it felt a lot like esoprogramming 21:53:23 http://www.phrack.com/issues.html?issue=57&id=15 is an article about alphanumeric exploits in x86 machine code 21:53:32 my idea was that if you didn't have a copy of uudecode handy, you could nonetheless obtain programs by typing them in 21:53:56 -!- Bike_ has joined. 21:54:12 ais523: I realized recently that the EICAR Standard Anti-Virus Test File is such a DOS program as well 21:54:22 (printable program that prints a string) 21:54:23 kmc: huh, seriously? 21:54:27 I'd never looked at that file before now 21:54:31 I would paste it here, but it might cause virus scanners to flag your IRC log files :) 21:54:33 the problem is, it's quite hard to obtain 21:54:35 yeah 21:54:37 yep http://www.eicar.org/86-0-Intended-use.html 21:54:40 it sets off every antivirus scanner in existence 21:54:43 because that's its /job/ 21:54:54 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:55:23 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike. 21:55:48 "providing that the file starts with the following 68 characters, and is exactly 68 bytes long" 21:55:49 fun typo 21:56:16 a sort-of similar thing is if a program takes a sufficiently complicated data format, the "data" (that should be untrusted) can end up being some kind of esolang without even exploiting any bugs 21:56:28 (but I think the potential for abuse here is mostly making a program use more memory or time than it should) 21:56:58 olsner: well there are fun things like doing distributed computation 21:57:03 via router error messages 21:57:07 yeah, related to esolangs is the idea of writing programs in things that were never intended to be programming languages at all 21:57:33 there's an IOCCC entry that implements an adventure game using only the C preprocessor 21:58:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gnity). 21:58:15 and all the stuff about proving Game of Life is turing complete, Tetris is NP-hard, etc 21:58:43 ais523: ooh, tell me more 21:59:24 The .rar VM would be fun to program in if you could take any input somehow 21:59:33 olsner: I don't know more, and am not sure if it works 21:59:45 complexity reductions are kind of like esoteric programming... to prove that 3-coloring graphs is NP-hard, you show that you can take a logical formula and construct a graph, such that the graph has a 3-coloring if and only if the formula is satisfiable 21:59:50 kmc: I prefer the PSPACE-complete games 21:59:54 like Sokoban, that one's interesting 22:00:04 (PSPACE-complete normally implies that it'd be TC given infinite memory) 22:00:23 but of course graphs don't have anything about variables, true and false, AND and OR built in, so you need to come up with particular shaped 'gadgets' that implement these concepts in terms of just edges, points, and colors assigned to points 22:00:43 ais523: interesting; is there a formal statement of that last idea? 22:00:57 kmc: I don't know of one, and there might not be one 22:01:12 because the normal construction involves putting a repeating pattern on the playfield in one diection 22:01:14 *direction 22:01:25 but nothing about being PSPACE-complete implies that a playfield-like concept even exists 22:01:56 OTOH, being the sort of game that tends to be PSPACE-complete /does/ imply that a playfield-like concept exists :) 22:02:34 Isn't sokoban PSPACE-complete 22:02:50 -!- elieser224 has joined. 22:02:55 -!- elieser224 has left. 22:03:11 FreeFull: that's what I said a few lines ago 22:03:27 I haven't been paying attention 22:03:56 I wonder if there is any analog between sokoban that allows both pulling and pushing, and reversible programming 22:04:39 well, it's normally easy to tell if something's reversible or not 22:04:44 (except for Burro, apparently) 22:04:52 -!- Tritonio has joined. 22:04:57 there are some interesting things that can be proved as a result of reversibility 22:05:18 e.g. any reversible program where the process of starting is reversible, that has finite memory, must terminate 22:10:24 'the process of starting'? 22:10:50 Phantom_Hoover: like, you can look at a program state 22:10:56 and determine whether the program just started or not 22:15:37 what does finite memory here mean 22:18:24 ais523: is the argument basically that if you're in an infinite loop, you don't have the state to keep track of how many times you've gone round the loop? 22:18:31 kmc: yes 22:18:34 Phantom_Hoover: the largest computer anyone here has seen had 1TB of memory 22:18:36 cool 22:18:38 that's a neat result 22:19:17 (finite memory is probably less than that) 22:28:17 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:30:51 FreeFull: i thought the pspace sokoban thing was based on a similar model to billiard ball computing so 22:32:13 ais523: Can't the reversible program loop in a direction, leaving trails 22:32:31 FreeFull: it can't leave trails forever if there's finite memory 22:32:41 that is the usual way to write an infinite loop in a TC reversible language, though 22:36:27 Oh, yeah, if there is finite memory 22:47:59 -!- nooodl^ has joined. 22:48:14 it seems to beone of those results where most of the work is in the definitions, though 22:48:18 *be one 22:48:29 -!- nooodl^ has quit (Client Quit). 22:52:21 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:53:31 oh wow, everyone 22:53:35 the OMGWTF is getting a sequel 22:53:57 " Also, your entry only counts if you install and deploy New Relic's performance monitoring software. It's free and only takes a few minutes to do, and you'll even be able to score one of their Nerd Life T-shirts in the process" 22:54:04 a blatant advertising sequel, it seems 22:54:45 what's omgwtf 22:54:56 basically a competition to write simple programs in insane ways 23:14:56 -!- jsvine has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:15:29 -!- elieser224 has joined. 23:16:58 -!- carado_ has joined. 23:21:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:23:06 -!- Tritonio__ has joined. 23:23:25 -!- elieser224 has left. 23:23:39 -!- Tritonio has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds). 23:27:44 -!- carado has joined. 23:35:21 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:43:13 Was jsvine the reporter? 23:43:37 yes 23:44:11 something about lurking for a few days, interview with cpressey tomorrow, etc etc 23:47:55 thank god he didn't get to meet sgeo 23:48:06 or zzo, come to think of it 23:49:42 :( 23:49:45 He saw a line that I said, quoted by someone else 23:51:40 -!- elieser2241 has joined. 23:52:54 elliott: no reply to my email yet 23:54:17 -!- elieser2241 has left.