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00:01:38 <Bike> this vacation9 person, seems to have a lot of trouble
00:01:52 <oerjan> elliott: well file doesn't recognize the first encoding as anything other than ASCII text
00:01:58 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:03:16 <fizzie> That's something anyone doing this kind of stupid-day puzzle does, though.
00:03:52 <oerjan> well in that case they'll do all the rest too :P
00:04:26 -!- carado_ has joined.
00:04:32 <oerjan> or wait was that to Bike
00:04:54 <nooga> oh, Sgeo is also there
00:04:54 <fizzie> I don't think people in general eyeball the second one, though. Maybe.
00:05:10 <fizzie> oerjan: No, it was to you.
00:05:41 <fizzie> Having done a bit of the official one, I can't really be criticizing anyone else for wasting their time.
00:06:17 <Sgeo> nooga, elliottcable invited me there after I ranted a bit about node.js in the node.js channel
00:06:29 <oerjan> Bike: shachaf: i'm pretty sure that periodic function stuff is trivial if you can use the axiom of choice (and thus get a basis for the reals as a rational vector space), but is that intended?
00:06:44 <Bike> oerjan: given the context, probably.
00:07:03 <nooga> Sgeo: oh, I didn't know you're into node
00:07:16 <Sgeo> I'm not into node
00:07:36 <nooga> then what were you doing in the #node.js?
00:08:53 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
00:09:01 <Sgeo> Complaining about node
00:09:02 <fizzie> Hey, what am I doing on #esoteric? Are people going to think I'm... into it?
00:10:10 <oerjan> fizzie: they might start thinking you do wacky things such as programming befunge
00:10:45 <fizzie> 7part #esoteric OH NOOOOO
00:11:50 <oerjan> also it is trivial that the two functions cannot be continuous, since then they would be bounded.
00:12:03 <shachaf> Sgeo: Did you seriously join #node.js to talk about how node.js is bad?
00:12:28 <shachaf> When people do that in #haskell, we usually consider them annoying trolls.
00:13:19 <oerjan> surely there is #haskell-flames for that.
00:13:28 <ion> Hi all. Esoteric programming languages are bad.
00:13:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:13:47 -!- oerjan has kicked ion Fuck off and die.
00:13:52 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
00:14:03 <nooga> ion was kicked from #esoteric by oerjan [Fuck off and die]
00:14:23 <nooga> oerjan actually typed the F word
00:14:30 <fizzie> Good to see someone showing those uppity trolls who's the boss.
00:14:46 -!- ion has joined.
00:15:01 <oerjan> nooga: i'm sure it's happened before
00:15:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31028
00:16:19 <shachaf> imo oerjan is abusing his op powers
00:17:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i vaguely recall you were being quite annoying.
00:18:22 <oerjan> although possibly by accident.
00:19:26 -!- nooga has changed nick to Meldo.
00:19:32 -!- Meldo has changed nick to nooga.
00:19:38 <oerjan> ...now i remember. maybe i should kick you again.
00:25:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Why do you hate dahl.net so much?
00:25:21 <ion> http://overviewer.org/
00:26:17 <oerjan> shachaf: because it doesn't exist.
00:26:30 <fizzie> A kihck graph is formed by taking all the maximal kihcks (people who've each kihcked each other) on the original channel, and adding an edge if the "F word" was used in a cross-maximal-kihck kihck event.
00:29:27 <fizzie> (Is there a sort of a clihque for directed graphs?)
00:30:31 <oerjan> probably several kinds
00:31:54 <fizzie> Assuming the kind where directions are removed and multiple edges collapsed, are there maximal kihcks on #esoteric larger than two?
00:32:33 <fizzie> That's the kind of question I'd like to ask W|A but I think they still haven't "curated" data about #esoteric.
00:33:11 <nooga> let's code some node
00:33:56 <fizzie> "Meep meep", isn't it?
00:34:01 * Sgeo suddenly remembers that Bike wants to see a video of him typing.
00:34:36 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm pretty sure you are the most qualified person to collect and visualize the data hth
00:34:52 <Bike> Oh right, because you don't touch type.
00:35:35 <oerjan> fizzie: wikipedia seems to insist on beep
00:35:41 <fizzie> oerjan: It's like 3:35am and I was just going to sleep, and then you say something like that. "H", indeed.
00:36:22 <fizzie> I seem to have been wrong on the meeps too.
00:36:39 <oerjan> also http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070608064934AAlD3Rb
00:38:10 <oerjan> (warning: that was about as depressing as you'd expect)
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01:07:41 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-kick.png well now THAT was quite something.
01:08:12 <Bike> elliott's been very bad.
01:08:38 <Bike> youguysaremean / IWontSayAWord / pleasehearmeout <-- omg
01:08:43 <fizzie> The line thickness is from the count.
01:08:47 <elliott> fizzie: can you... make this vertical instead
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01:09:03 <fizzie> elliott: Possibly with a rankdir=LR.
01:09:44 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-kick2.png same thing the other way around.
01:10:45 <fizzie> As far as graphs go, it's remarkably bipartite.
01:10:54 <fizzie> With the self-edges being the only exceptions.
01:11:02 <elliott> fizzie: you should op me so i can add some data to it.
01:11:06 <elliott> I bet Bike wants to be kicked for science.
01:11:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i see tusho and lament kicked each other. i think.
01:11:55 <fizzie> oerjan: As did you and elliott, somehow.
01:12:14 <oerjan> oh. that wasn't visible.
01:12:26 <fizzie> It's more visible in the vertical version.
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01:12:30 <fizzie> Since it's bipartite, it also means my original question about maximal kihcks of size greater than two probably has a negative answer.
01:12:53 <elliott> anyway c'mon. opping me so i can kick people for fun is practically a tradition by now.
01:13:17 <fizzie> Nooo, I'll go a sleep now byebye ->
01:13:28 <elliott> ok i guess oerjan has to do it then
01:15:27 <oerjan> fizzie: you are _quite_ a lazy op hth
01:17:01 <elliott> it's awful. i'll kick him for it
01:20:15 <elliott> oerjan: wow I feature deadfish and don't even get anything in return!
01:20:20 <kmc> `run dmesg | paste
01:20:24 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13850
01:20:51 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:20:55 <HackEgo> ubda: unknown partition table \ console [mc-1] enabled \ Initializing software serial port version 1 \ console [tty0] enabled \ Console initialized on /dev/tty0 \ Initialized stdio console driver \ sit: IPv6 over IPv4 tunneling driver \ NET: Registered protocol family 10 \ TCP: cubic registered \ loop: module loaded \ brd: module loaded \ io sc
01:21:54 <oerjan> is tusho elliott or tswett, i always confuse it with kerlo
01:22:06 <Fiora> http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ oh geez
01:22:48 <elliott> wow it actually has sample code
01:23:24 <elliott> yay the readme links to our wiki
01:24:29 <Fiora> (I finally found a relevant link for like once in forever)
01:25:40 <elliott> more often than most of us manage
01:26:58 <elliott> oerjan: http://ro-che.info/articles/2013-03-31-flavours-of-free-applicative-functors.html
01:27:02 <elliott> oerjan: congratulations on being /r/haskell famous
01:27:09 <elliott> albeit with a low-fidelity rendering of your name
01:28:10 <Sgeo> I hit 110 pounds!
01:28:28 <kmc> how tall are you Sgeo?
01:29:01 <Sgeo> 5'2" (around there, maybe a bit taller, I forget, 5'2" to 5'4" or so)
01:29:35 <pikhq> Jesus you're short.
01:29:38 <oerjan> elliott: argh i think he missed half the point, which was that my implementation doesn't use Functor f...
01:29:46 <elliott> oerjan: the functor f thing is mentioned later.
01:29:59 <elliott> oerjan: then he says you're a cannon!
01:33:18 <kmc> `run ls -l /dev/ubd*
01:33:20 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /dev/ubd*: No such file or directory
01:34:02 <kmc> `paste < /tmp/16551.conf
01:34:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/%3C%20/tmp/16551.conf
01:34:19 <kmc> `run paste < /tmp/16551.conf
01:34:21 <HackEgo> bash: /tmp/16551.conf: No such file or directory
01:35:04 <Fiora> 5'2" isn't that short!
01:36:03 <Sgeo> Pretty much everyone else I know who is this short is female
01:36:38 <Sgeo> I don't entirely understand why so many women are short compared to men
01:36:39 <Fiora> I guess that's true, the average for guys is like 5'9" or something
01:36:50 <Fiora> I think it's just sexual dimorphism?
01:37:22 <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
01:39:22 <elliott> Bike: aren't you already a horrid fleshbeast
01:40:04 <Bike> Well I mean moreso.
01:40:07 <Bike> Since I'd be a sexual one.
01:40:33 <kmc> a terrified, asexual forcemeat
01:40:44 <Gregor> `addquote <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
01:40:47 <HackEgo> 1004) <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
01:41:04 <kmc> sexual animorphism
01:41:24 <Gregor> <pikhq> Jesus you're short. // actually, given the change of humans' height over time, yeah, he's probably about as tall as Jesus was.
01:41:47 <Fiora> wait who's the asexual fleshbeat
01:42:15 <elliott> truly, aren't we all asexual fleshbeasts.
01:44:47 <oerjan> elliott: he actually asked me in a message if i wanted to give my real name for attribution, but i haven't got around to visiting reddit properly yet today
01:44:58 <pikhq> Afraid I'm a sexual fleshbeast.
01:45:09 <oerjan> so i just saw it when clicking on the link back from the blog post to reddit
01:47:13 <kmc> a porn version of the animorphs
01:48:09 <Jafet> Sexual polymorphism
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02:00:05 <oerjan> i feel i've seen better wikipedia front pages for this date than this.
02:01:20 <kmc> WE ARE NOT AMUSED
02:02:38 <oerjan> yeah that was the worst
02:03:25 <oerjan> today's picture was the best i think
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02:03:52 <shachaf> wikipedia has a front page?
02:04:12 <shachaf> the front page is /wiki/Special:Search?search=, right?
02:04:20 <oerjan> and the rest was trying to stretch things too far to try and be humorous
02:06:11 <shachaf> oerjan: imo that works better with rwbarton
02:21:22 <tswett> oerjan: tusho is elliott.
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02:22:18 <elliott> Bike: looks like we need more clues.
02:22:38 <nooodl_> help how do i write \mathcal letters on paper
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02:26:14 <oerjan> nooodl_: pretend you're 19th century european royalty.
02:26:29 <nooodl_> haha that's actually pretty much what i'm doing
02:26:36 <nooodl_> they're so swooshy and unreadable... god
02:27:00 <nooodl_> i'll just write a bunch of As Bs and Cs and hope i never have to deal with anything beyond that
02:27:18 <Bike> alex_joni: What's a function that's continuous almost everywhere but differentiable nowhere?
02:28:16 <oerjan> indeed, drop the almost.
02:28:25 <shachaf> Maybe Bike is thinking of a different function.
02:28:35 <HackEgo> alex_joni: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:30:42 <kmc> how do i keep misplacing all of my virtual machines
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02:31:36 <Bike> everyone i love dies :(
02:32:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Bike loves everyone
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02:39:50 <Koen_> Bike: alex_joni: What's a function that's continuous almost everywhere but differentiable nowhere?
02:40:33 * Koen_ in Koen's world, all sets are discrete
02:41:09 <Bike> Isn't it the same in elliott's world.
02:41:15 <kmc> isn't there one that's like... f(p/q) = 1/q, f(x) = 0 for p,q integers, x irrational
02:41:24 <Bike> weierstrass's is the "canonical" one
02:41:32 <shachaf> i think elliott believes in differentiable functions
02:42:31 <kmc> fractalicious
02:42:46 <kmc> while we're talking about weird functions, i like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_base_13_function
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02:43:44 <Bike> My favorite conway thing is probably that huge-ass polynomial.
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02:44:13 <Bike> the one for look-and-say.
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02:50:07 <kmc> i haven't sen
02:50:36 <kmc> that polynomial
02:50:38 <tswett> Conway's huge polynomial? Hereabouts it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence
02:50:52 <Bike> Yeah, it's in there, like degree 70-something
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02:52:39 <Koen_> kmc: how is that continuous?
02:52:55 <Koen_> you're jumping from 1/q to 0
02:53:38 <kmc> Koen_: as you get closer to an irrational number by rational approximations, the denominator gets bigger and bigger
02:54:24 <Bike> I bet you can't find a rational that's right next to an irrational.
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02:56:12 <shachaf> help what's a right next to
02:56:42 <Koen_> I think the usual term is equality
02:57:29 <Bike> shachaf: Right.
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02:59:31 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:59:58 <tswett> Oh boy. Conway's base 13 function takes on the value of every real number, in every open interval?
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03:00:04 <shachaf> wait that wasn't even my @message
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03:00:40 <Bike> oh, that's a good property.
03:00:41 <Koen_> doesn't identity do that already?
03:00:41 <tswett> I want to have a lambdabot message.
03:01:07 <oerjan> @tell tswett Not a chance
03:01:22 <shachaf> hey oerjan this article talks about someone who shares your first name
03:01:45 <oerjan> shachaf: infinitesimal
03:03:28 <shachaf> I regard Oerjan’s version as the principal one. It is simple, powerful (doesn’t require f to be a functor) and straightforward (doesn’t change the arguments order).
03:03:46 <shachaf> "doesn’t require f to be a functor"?
03:03:46 <tswett> So what's the best function that takes on every value on every interval?
03:03:46 <lambdabot> tswett: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:04:00 <tswett> *gasp* I have a message? :Ö:
03:04:15 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3m 8s ago: Not a chance
03:04:42 <tswett> I'm so happy. :')))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
03:05:07 <oerjan> tswett: that base 13 function does look pretty good
03:06:01 <oerjan> shachaf: nope, it doesn't
03:06:21 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:06:35 <shachaf> oerjan: What about all these "Functor f =>" constraints?
03:06:55 <oerjan> shachaf: completely redundant
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03:07:11 <shachaf> Anyway I'm not sure what it means for it to be a "free applicative" if there's no functor.
03:07:47 <oerjan> shachaf: the applicative itself is a functor. it just doesn't use any underlying one.
03:08:12 <shachaf> So what is it a "free applicative" of?
03:08:23 <shachaf> Well... In what sense is it "free"?
03:08:30 <oerjan> of a * -> * kind data constructor
03:08:45 <shachaf> what does "free" even mean help
03:09:27 <oerjan> well usually it's about having the right universal property
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03:10:06 <shachaf> i thought "free" meant "left adjoint to a forgetful functor" or something
03:10:17 <oerjan> shachaf: that "lower" function should probably be the corresponding forgetful functor
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03:18:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Can you explain the thing with the free F-Alg monad?
03:19:54 <oerjan> i haven't been following those posts
03:20:27 <shachaf> This is unrelated to ro-che.
03:21:14 <oerjan> well i vaguely recall seeing reddit posts mentioning F-algebras
03:21:41 <shachaf> WELL I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THOSE REDDIT POSTS
03:21:50 <shachaf> (unless i actually am talking about them)
03:22:11 <oerjan> well i'm pointing out i haven't learned anything about F-algebras
03:22:43 <oerjan> i may have had my eyes glaze over over some of those posts, that's all
03:26:03 <shachaf> I guess copumpkin will have to explain it.
03:28:12 <oerjan> copumpkin: i categorically refused to answer, so you will have to answer categorically.
03:37:01 <shachaf> Has Google Maps had this "Treasure" mode for a while or is it an April thing?
03:43:31 <Sgeo> huh, seems like quite a bit of effort to do, I think?
03:43:40 <Sgeo> I don't know, I don't know how image processing works
03:44:13 <Sgeo> Hmm, probably not
03:45:38 <elliott> are you saying humans have developed the technology to "draw" "maps"
03:47:27 <kmc> they use wood and arrows
03:49:06 <oerjan> elliott: sheesh elliott, humans made maps even in the middle age. it just took them most of their life to complete one.
03:49:26 <elliott> oerjan: ummm they didn't have image processing technology in the middle ages
03:50:44 <oerjan> elliott: that's why it took so long to make, duh
03:50:56 <oerjan> they had to do it without processing.
03:50:59 * Sgeo was thinking at first that Google was taking the rendered map image and converting it to treasure, but presumably Google actually has map data which makes more sense
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04:01:35 <Jafet> They didn't even have aircraft back then; how could they have had maps?
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04:29:59 <Bike> That's pretty boring.
04:31:07 <copumpkin> F-algebra is an object x of C and a morphism from F x -> x
04:31:33 <elliott> why do you need an endofunctor?
04:31:34 <shachaf> Why do free F-algebras give you free monads?
04:32:00 <shachaf> copumpkin: It could be a contravariant functor!
04:32:20 <Bike> sathiyac2: Try unzipping it.
04:32:24 <copumpkin> shachaf: it could be, not sure what would happen to the category construction then
04:32:43 <shachaf> Anyway this is apparently very related to free monads.
04:32:50 <copumpkin> shachaf: not sure about a free f-algebra
04:33:04 <copumpkin> you know how you get data out of initial f-algebras though?
04:33:23 <copumpkin> initial and free are kinda similar
04:33:37 <copumpkin> or how one is justified by the other
04:34:29 <shachaf> That's related to foldr with (:) and [], I guess?
04:34:55 <sathiyac2> can u plz tell me . . wat is f-algebra ?
04:34:56 <copumpkin> which are just defining characteristics of data
04:35:12 <elliott> sathiyac2: 05:30:46 <copumpkin> take an endofunctor F
04:35:13 <elliott> 05:30:53 <copumpkin> on category C
04:35:13 <elliott> 05:31:07 <copumpkin> F-algebra is an object x of C and a morphism from F x -> x
04:35:13 <shachaf> But I'm not sure what you mean in particular.
04:35:15 <copumpkin> anyway, it turns out that f-algebras can be made into a category
04:35:27 <copumpkin> so for a particular F, you can construct its category of F-algebras
04:35:45 <copumpkin> where the algebras are objects, and the morphisms are still pretty simple
04:37:06 <copumpkin> so basically I said that an f-algebra is an object of C and a morphism in it. To look at the moprhism between two f-algebras, just take a moprhism between their two objects, such that a fairly obvious law is satisfied
04:37:28 <copumpkin> so anyway, now you have this category of f-algebras
04:37:41 <copumpkin> if you look at the initial obejcts in that category, you'll find you can prove a remarkable property about them
04:39:07 <shachaf> The morphism part of every initial F-algebra has an inverse?
04:39:47 <copumpkin> but the more interesting part is that the object part X of that initial algebra is isomorphic to F X
04:40:20 <copumpkin> which is basically a roundabout way to get a fixed point
04:40:47 <shachaf> Well, that's the same thing, isn't it? If f : F X -> X has an inverse then X ~= F X?
04:41:25 <copumpkin> I just think phrasing it as a fixed point is more revealing
04:41:41 <copumpkin> when we're used to writing data ListF a r = …; Mu (ListF a)
04:42:46 <copumpkin> the same argument works for terminal coalgebras of course
04:43:38 <copumpkin> oh shit, the fake announcements have already started popping up
04:44:13 <shachaf> So the free monad thing is related, I think.
04:44:36 <shachaf> For the left adjoint to the forgetful functor : F-Alg(C) -> C
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04:46:30 <shachaf> That works out to be the same as the free monad?
04:48:42 <shachaf> what is this "work" thing..........
04:49:03 <shachaf> Now I know a bit about Lambek's Lemma and Colambek's Colemma.
04:49:15 <copumpkin> can't stay up all night doing CT, you know
05:03:11 <kmc> what is lmgtfy
05:04:23 <HackEgo> sathiyac2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:25:55 <shachaf> copumpkin: class Algebra a where algebra :: F a -> a
05:26:17 <shachaf> newtype Foo a = Foo { runFoo :: forall r. Algebra r => (a -> r) -> r }
05:27:25 <Bike> no restriction on F?
05:27:49 <shachaf> You can tell because it's uppercase.
05:28:53 <shachaf> With MPTCs you can say class Algebra f a where ...
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05:37:12 <btiffin> Has anyone tried CB Slang syntax?
05:37:50 <Bike> like cb radio?
05:51:57 <elliott> oh interesting. ML was introduced to write tactics for LCF.
05:52:13 <elliott> so the OCaml and Coq thing just continues that trend of ML-family languages being invented for theorem provers...
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06:07:02 <shachaf> monqy: maybe you feel like talking about the f-algebra thing a bit
06:08:03 <shachaf> you know, the adjunction : F-Alg(C) -> C
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06:43:09 <zzo38> What kind of other stuff do I need for quantum computing related stuff in Esoteric Verilog?
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06:51:25 <zzo38> I have also listed various other things; do you know about any of those things too?
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07:03:33 <zzo38> If such thing as quantum FPGA, reversible FPGA, mechanical FPGA, chemical FPGA, biological FPGA, self-modifying FPGA, etc, would exist, then Esoteric Verilog might be capable to program them. However, unlike standard Verilog, not all of Esoteric Verilog is even usable in a simulation; it is not only a hardware proper subset but there must be a *possible* proper subset, too!
07:04:01 <Bike> I'm still wondering what "biological FPGA" is supposed to mean. Same with "chemical" really.
07:04:55 <zzo38> I don't know either.
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07:06:39 <zzo38> I also don't even know if it is possible, even though ASIC might be possible of such thing, maybe (or maybe not). However, such things as infinite FPGA, and halting oracles of Turing complete systems, are obviously impossible.
07:06:49 <ais523> zzo38: I think a "destroy the universe" command cannot generally be implemented in a quantum program
07:06:59 <zzo38> ais523: I know; it is impossible.
07:07:10 <ais523> if it could be, then quantum computers could execute all NP algorithms in polynomial time, and that's not generally believed to be possible
07:07:13 <zzo38> Esoteric Verilog is partially impossible.
07:07:22 <zzo38> However, I intend to have possible things, too.
07:07:23 <ais523> I'd noticed that elsewhere
07:07:43 <ais523> so you're aiming for uncomputable quantum operations, as well as uncomputable classical operations?
07:08:03 <zzo38> Yes, but also computable things, too; not only uncomputable things.
07:12:34 <zzo38> As well as things with simply are strange.
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07:18:18 <zzo38> However, may you can notice even some possible quantum operations which I have missed in that article.
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07:47:50 <ais523> hey, #esoteric: can I ask for advice on how to do something that is probably a bad idea?
07:48:12 <shachaf> That's probably a bad idea. But you can ask.
07:48:28 <ais523> well, I want to write a web application
07:48:53 <ais523> or, at least, I'm personally going to use it standalone, but other people might reasonably use it as a web application, and I'm planning to write it in HTML+JavaScript
07:49:23 <ais523> now, this thing needs to use a bunch of information that's stored in a (read-only) relational database
07:49:33 <ais523> but I want it to work offline as well
07:49:46 <ais523> so, I want advice on how best to store an entire relational database in JavaScript
07:50:44 <ais523> (it's 33 megabytes as a sqlite3 database, so large but not unreasonably large for this purpose)
07:52:04 <ais523> one thing I'm considering is just using literal dictionaries to store the data and doing joins by hand
07:52:31 <ais523> and writing a program to trawl the database and convert it to dictionaries
07:53:23 <ais523> perhaps the sane way would be to have a pluggable database access thing
07:53:46 <ais523> and have the db-in-js as just one of the plugins, and talking to an actual webserver that was connected to an actual database server another option
07:54:25 <ais523> the other option, which I've also considered, is to talk to the owner of the database and convince them to give their site an API
07:54:41 <ais523> to which the conclusion is, that they're actually planning that but it won't be ready in time
07:55:59 <Jafet> You could threaten to copy their database and distribute it with your application.
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07:58:04 <AnotherTest> Would a system of cryptocracy (decentralized crypto-democracy) be feasible? Would it ever work?
07:59:24 <coppro> if you mean "could be a system by which decisions were made", probably
07:59:34 <shachaf> ais523: Sounds reasonable to me. How complicated are the queries that you'll be doing, anyway?
08:00:01 <coppro> if you mean "could be a system by which decisions were made and the public had high confidence in the decisions being correct from a procedural perspective, i.e. not tained by fraud or error", questionable
08:00:19 <ais523> shachaf: they're basically just a sequence of joins, mostly one-to-one, the occasional one-to-many or many-to-many
08:00:21 <AnotherTest> Could you ever organize a group of people in this way without getting total anarchy and yes, where actual decision can be made?
08:00:33 <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, doesn't HTML5 have an actual SQLy storage API?
08:00:42 <coppro> if you mean "could be a system underpinning a stable society", probably not, assuming a large society
08:00:48 <ais523> shachaf: it has a storage API, but isn't that for an entirely different purpose?
08:00:50 <ais523> this information's read-only
08:00:58 <coppro> you could certainly organize a small group, and it's been done
08:01:15 <coppro> (well, maybe not decentralized)
08:01:48 <Vorpal> ais523, can't you use sqlite from js these days?
08:01:50 <ais523> shachaf: like, the HTML5 storage API is for things that are like cookies, but larger
08:01:54 <coppro> There are algorithms for propagating majority decisions on networks
08:01:55 <ais523> Vorpal: I was wondering about that
08:01:58 <coppro> they're quite interesting
08:02:01 <Vorpal> ais523, local browser storage or something?
08:02:01 <ais523> compiling sqlite3 to JS, or the like
08:02:02 <shachaf> I mean this openDatabase thing.
08:02:16 <ais523> that's for storing a database on the user's computer
08:02:16 <shachaf> Maybe this is Chrome-only or something?
08:02:26 <ais523> and adding and removing stuff in it
08:02:33 <Vorpal> ais523, right, so put a config file if it should use a server or not?
08:02:35 <ais523> whereas this database is something we're providing to the user
08:02:36 <coppro> but from a sociological and political perspective, a large society trying to do this would be doomed to fail because of the inherent problems of letting everyone participate in all the decision-making: there are just too many complexities and subtleties
08:02:42 <Vorpal> ais523, and on the server version use, say, postgresql
08:03:08 <ais523> well, not really tricky because read-only is a subset of read-write
08:03:14 <Vorpal> well that is kind of large
08:03:17 <ais523> but it does change what it's optimal for
08:03:22 <Vorpal> I wouldn't want to use that from my phone for example
08:03:23 <AnotherTest> coppro: well, I guess that you can't do everything using referenda
08:03:24 <ais523> yeah, 33 MB is exactly in the "kind-of large" range :)
08:03:41 <Vorpal> ais523, did you say what it was for?
08:03:41 <ais523> a typical desktop with a broadband connection won't care
08:03:44 <AnotherTest> I suspect that would cause severe conservatism, and possible extreme thinking
08:03:53 <Vorpal> ais523, then I wonder what it is for
08:04:09 <ais523> I'm planning to update my Pokémon IV checker into a full teambuilder
08:04:11 <shachaf> This document was on the W3C Recommendation track but specification work has stopped. The specification reached an impasse: all interested implementors have used the same SQL backend (Sqlite), but we need multiple independent implementations to proceed along a standardisation path
08:04:19 <ais523> come to think of it, it'd probably need a second database too
08:04:28 <ais523> the one giving statistics from the competitive community
08:04:36 <ais523> as well as the one containing information from the game itself
08:05:07 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I have ADSL, 33 MB as a download (zip, tgz, whatever) I wouldn't care about, but if I expected to load it as a web page it would take long enough that I would assume the server was timing out, and I would probably just end up giving up and closing the page.
08:05:27 <coppro> I should probably go to sleep
08:05:38 <coppro> I believe I need to be up in 3 hours to finish an April Fool's prank
08:05:42 <Vorpal> ais523, if it was to load directly as a web page it would need a progress bar
08:05:46 <ais523> Vorpal: I wonder how far the data can be reduced via selecting only the data that we'd actually use, and the like
08:06:03 <ais523> and you could put it in a separate page and AJAX-load it, I guess; that'd work even when saved locally
08:06:40 <Vorpal> ais523, people these days expect pages to load fast. If there is no obvious reason, and no progress bar, most people would give up within 10 seconds. I remember reading some study that showed that somewhere.
08:06:44 <Vorpal> A couple of years ago.
08:06:50 <zzo38> I suggest not writing in JavaScript; write in SQL instead. Write in C you can still access over internet if needed. If you want a webpage that can be written afterward.
08:06:51 <Vorpal> I would probably give it around 10 seconds myself
08:07:12 <ais523> so yeah, progress bar is a good idea
08:07:26 <Vorpal> ais523, that means js of course
08:07:28 <ais523> anyway, I asked #esoteric because I knew you lot wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand
08:07:32 <Vorpal> but you are using it anyway
08:07:35 <ais523> well this is heavily JSy anyway
08:08:17 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, pokemon IV, which generation is that in terms of the games in it?
08:08:26 <ais523> Vorpal: 3 onwards; the one I did was for 4
08:08:41 <Vorpal> that doesn't help me really
08:08:46 <ais523> oh, 3 = ruby/sapphire/emerald/firered/leafgreen
08:08:53 <ais523> 4 = diamond/pearl/platinum/heartgold/soulsilver
08:09:02 <ais523> 5 = black/white/black2/white2
08:09:12 <Vorpal> soulsilver/heartgold are such silly names
08:09:21 <ais523> they're good games though
08:09:35 <shachaf> ais523: It should only download 33MB if the user explicitly requests it, of course.
08:09:44 <Vorpal> ais523, are they copies of each other with different bosses and/or pokemons?
08:09:47 <AnotherTest> I like soulsilver more, has an alliteration
08:09:52 <Vorpal> I seem to remember Nintendo doing a lot of that
08:10:04 <ais523> shachaf: well, that would be a case of putting a warning "this site is unusable unless it first downloads 33MB"
08:10:13 <ais523> unless I used the filesystem as a database or something stupid like that
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08:10:16 <Vorpal> which always seemed like exploiting the customer base to me
08:10:26 <ais523> Vorpal: and yeah, soulsilver and heartgold are basically identical with a few changes
08:10:29 <Vorpal> the customer base didn't seem to care though, so meh
08:10:41 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, I thought you were going to have a non-offline version that made queries to the server database.
08:10:41 <ais523> in my case it's OK because I have a family who also plays Pokémon
08:10:46 <ais523> so we buy the required number of versions anyway
08:11:00 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, I'm coming around to that opinion
08:11:04 <Vorpal> ais523, well yeah that works
08:11:05 <ais523> so we'd have an online version and an offline version
08:11:13 <shachaf> At any rate abstraction is always good, right?
08:11:39 <AnotherTest> What's with the base64 string in the topic?
08:11:54 <shachaf> AnotherTest: It's the puzzle you need to solve to get to level 8.
08:12:01 <Vorpal> personally I played one pokemon game in an emulator (think it was sapphire? It had Team Magma as the bad guys I remember), and I thought "okay, that was not too bad, but I don't see myself playing another pokemon game, far too repetitive"
08:12:09 <shachaf> Well, there's also the whole "two periodic functions whose sum is the identity function" thing.
08:12:10 <AnotherTest> shachaf: Is this some kind of cryptograhpic puzzle?
08:12:24 <shachaf> Exactly. It's a cryptograph.
08:12:35 <AnotherTest> Is there another tip other than that string?
08:12:50 <zzo38> My suggestion is to not make it a webpage at all, it doesn't seem correct for what you seem to be making to me; writing it as a local program in SQL seems better.
08:13:07 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, freenode has a first of April quiz, we were/are trolling the guys who try to cheat by looking in /list.
08:13:09 <AnotherTest> zzo38: people want everything on the web these days
08:13:32 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, that is why the "level 7" is there
08:13:38 <zzo38> However, HTML (and XUL) are ways to provide a GUI which is consistent, if needed, but it isn't needed.
08:13:40 <ais523> $ base64 -d | od -tx1z -w47
08:13:41 <ais523> H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA=
08:13:43 <ais523> 0000000 1f 8b 08 00 31 b5 58 51 00 03 33 31 54 30 37 50 30 37 52 30 b3 54 30 4b 56 30 32 50 30 31 53 30 4b 03 23 20 d7 10 00 01 d1 55 34 20 00 00 00 >....1.XQ..31T07P07R0.T0KV02P01S0K.# .....U4 ...<
08:13:50 <Vorpal> ais523, it is gzip encoded and then base64
08:14:06 <AnotherTest> Well considering it's a first of april quiz, that's probably going to be encrypted using AES too
08:14:12 <Vorpal> and it decodes to some randomish hex digit
08:14:40 <zzo38> AnotherTest: I still think it is not good idea, though. Especially I don't like it, and some other people also don't like (including Stallman, but there are others too, I am sure); however, it would still be possible having a separate front-end for webpages if needed.
08:14:49 <ais523> that doesn't look randomish at all, it's all in the printable ASCII range
08:14:54 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, it is just gzip wrapped in base64
08:15:43 <Vorpal> $ echo H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | base64 -d | gunzip; echo
08:15:43 <Vorpal> 41 70 72 69 6c 20 46 6f 6f 6c 21
08:15:59 <ais523> it's "April Fool!", encoded as ASCII representations of the hex digits of its ASCII representation, then gzipped, then base64ed
08:16:57 <Vorpal> ais523, "od -tx1z -w47" <-- you remember that syntax off the top of your head?
08:17:03 <ais523> I had to look up the -w
08:17:09 <ais523> which is arguably the easier to remember
08:17:13 <ais523> I use -tx1z all the time, though
08:17:21 <Vorpal> or tx1z for that matter
08:17:27 <ais523> I set it to 47 to stop it wrapping, so that it fit on one line of IRC
08:17:29 <Vorpal> I can never remember od syntax
08:17:45 <ais523> -tx1z means "interpret single bytes at a time, output in hexadecimal, also output printable characters as ASCII"
08:18:10 <ais523> the default is -to2 or something stupid like that
08:18:14 <AnotherTest> Well, I must say it's a very original piece of text
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08:24:19 <ais523> I'm going to go for a while to buy food
08:24:27 <ais523> I'll be back in, an hour or so? maybe a bit more
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08:36:04 <coppro> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr4JwPb99qU
08:36:15 <coppro> i cannot wait for this to happen
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08:57:50 <AnotherTest> Is nobody going to create an April fools programming language this year?
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09:02:15 <Fiora> http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ is this close enough? XD
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09:10:49 <Vorpal> Fiora, was that made today??
09:18:22 <Vorpal> hm someone should totally implement that
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09:23:48 <Fiora> Vorpal: I think it was XD
09:23:54 <Fiora> it says april fools in the download
09:23:59 <Fiora> and apparently links to the esolangs wiki too XD
09:24:12 <Vorpal> someone should implement it
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09:47:24 <fizzie> Bah. I just ran GraphViz on an 86-node 7396-edge graph, and it's taking a forever.
09:47:34 <fizzie> (Perhaps some pruning might be appropriate.)
09:48:57 <fizzie> Uh, whoops. I think it was accidentally the complete graph.
09:49:17 <fizzie> Or what's the term for a directed graph with all the possible edges?
09:50:00 <fizzie> Yes, it really should've been 3782 edges. Which isn't terribly much better.
09:50:14 <ais523> fizzie: complete graph is the usual term for a graph with as many edges as possible
09:50:25 <ais523> not sure if it'd apply to DAGs, but I don't see why it wouldn't apply to directed graphs in general
09:50:44 <fizzie> "A complete digraph is a directed graph in which every pair of distinct vertices is connected by a pair of unique edges (one in each direction)" guess so.
09:51:05 <fizzie> It's not exactly a DAG.
09:51:14 <fizzie> You might even call it a DVCG.
09:53:24 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, I was trying to make it clear that directed graphs and directed acyclic graphs were different in my response
09:53:47 <ais523> basically because I know people who'd assume acyclic if I said directed, even if there's no particular dependency between those
09:55:17 <Sgeo> o.O someone said the answer in the first channel and after that it was kind of easy
09:55:34 <Sgeo> Well, some were
10:00:31 <impomatic> The song with drug references wasn't easy :-/
10:00:54 <fizzie> The right one was also a stupid one.
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10:09:42 <fizzie> Sadly, the graph turned out pretty stupid-looking: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-tmp.png
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10:12:01 <Sgeo> I only know of one such song :/
10:12:10 <Sgeo> Or maybe I'm misrememberig
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10:15:10 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet1.jpg
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10:16:48 <AnotherTest> shouldn't that be called www1.jpg or something
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10:20:29 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet2.jpg
10:22:58 <shachaf> Jafet: Please: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet2.jpg
10:23:58 <Jafet> https://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet2.jpg
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10:24:37 <shachaf> Well, it works if I click "Proceed anyway"
10:24:53 <shachaf> Which is presumably what you're meant to do with https errors.
10:24:55 <shachaf> But then it just redirects.
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10:25:41 <Jafet> Interesting, the https server redirects to the http server.
10:28:47 <fizzie> oklopol: It's pretty much using http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_mentions.html as the adjacency matrix, except without the normalization to frequencies, and with some pruning.
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10:30:11 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-tmp-1.png same but with fdp and more pruning.
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10:31:19 <fizzie> I was going to do it using only "^foo[:,;]" attribution entries, but I had this "mentions" data ready-to-use.
10:31:42 <shachaf> So I pretty much only talk to elliott and kmc and oerjan and monqy?
10:32:18 <fizzie> It's only the 100 or so most common (mentioner, mentionee) pairs.
10:32:35 <fizzie> Quite a lot of those things are mutual, though.
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10:33:36 <fizzie> Perhaps I should've done the "divide by number of words spoken in total" normalization here too. At least it might be less elliott-dominated that way.
10:34:55 <oklopol> i love the elliott centerpiece
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10:39:43 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-tmp-2.png normalized.
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10:43:19 <fizzie> I guess the unnormalized one looks better, anyway.
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10:43:34 <Jafet> > "hi el" ++ "liott"
10:43:49 <fizzie> You are skewing the data.
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10:44:29 <fizzie> Poor lambdabot, (according to the graph) always just muttering to emself.
10:44:53 <fizzie> Jafet: That one got ignored, it's based on a split to words.
10:45:00 <fizzie> (It's also not real-time.)
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10:59:00 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: k i vil cum der dude..u dint create to god. hw was the lec lol ibefore that got lab haven do can do togetherlol i bring the mini project. and course. i guess.
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11:00:23 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
11:00:41 <Vorpal> ais523_, did you make that http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ site?
11:01:11 <Vorpal> sad it is only a joke, would have been even more funny if some sort of pre-processor for it was actually implemented XD
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11:01:27 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> ais523_, did you make that http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ site?
11:01:27 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> sad it is only a joke, would have been even more funny if some sort of pre-processor for it was actually implemented XD
11:01:54 <ais523> Vorpal: I didn't make it
11:01:54 <ais523> I did comment on it in ali, though
11:02:05 <ais523> and write some general comments about INTERCAL on the Reddit thread
11:02:21 <Vorpal> ais523, do you know who made it?
11:02:41 <ais523> well, I know their reddit username and their email address
11:02:49 <ais523> but they both appear to be single-purpose accounts
11:03:03 <ais523> so it may be someone I know using a pseudonym
11:03:32 <Vorpal> ais523, you should totally implement a web framework for intercal though, it would be so funny
11:05:01 <ais523> INTERCAL is really really bad at string handling
11:05:55 <Vorpal> right, why should that stop you
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11:08:18 <Taneb> Today's Comments on a Postcard is somewhat odd
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11:36:21 <Jafet> "Jews are forbidden from doing creative work on the Shabbat."
11:36:34 <Jafet> But they appear to have many creative ways around this rule.
11:38:00 <Sgeo> Clearly they came up with those ways on Sunday-Friday
11:39:30 <Jafet> If they invent one during shabbat, I guess they aren't allowed to use it.
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12:26:06 <nooga> http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG21/docs/papers/2013/n3558.pdf C++14 getting futures?
12:27:44 <AnotherTest> http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/future
12:30:58 <AnotherTest> nooga: that proposal just adds a number of extra's it seems
12:31:27 <nooga> i'm not up to date with c++
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12:45:17 <Jafet> Most people who use it aren't, either.
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13:09:52 <Taneb> Ideas for family-tree:
13:10:05 <Taneb> Unify traversePerson/traverseFamily/traverseEvent
13:10:11 <Taneb> Remove events (they're stupid)
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13:13:20 <Taneb> What could I call the unified traversal
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13:14:52 <Taneb> Something short, like, 5-6 letters
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13:16:20 <ion> That’s good, too.
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14:15:54 <ais523> Vorpal: re the intercal on interstates thing, claudio calvelli (the maker of CLC-INTERCAL) replied to a comment of mine in a way that vaguely implies he might be the author, but I'm not sure
14:16:55 <Vorpal> ais523, would it be least painful to add these extensions to C- or CLC-INTERCAL?
14:17:19 <ais523> the page itself implies it's based on C-INTERCAL
14:17:33 <ais523> in general, C-INTERCAL is easier to change; OTOH, CLC-INTERCAL has more of the functionality in question already
14:17:40 <Vorpal> well, yes, but the download is empty, just a README says "April's Fools"
14:17:46 <ais523> and is more flexible, in that it supports more types of changes
14:18:15 <Vorpal> so no clear answer to the question then?
14:18:54 <Vorpal> would you ever consider implementing something like interstates?
14:20:09 <ais523> I'm not sure I get exactly how it works, from the description
14:20:34 <Vorpal> I said something like it, with that I mean a web framework for intercal, might obviously need some changes
14:20:42 <Vorpal> or adding features not described there
14:21:25 <ais523> in general, I'd like to see it done inside the language as a library, rather than as addons to the compiler
14:21:30 <Vorpal> Hm are there any CGI programs written in INTERCAL?
14:22:07 <Vorpal> I thought data got passed as environment variables, how do you deal with that?
14:22:11 <ais523> oh wow, not just that, it still works: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal/ins/insstart.html
14:22:53 <ais523> "Of course, CGI also makes valuable information available through environment variables, and INTERCAL knows nothing of such objects. But a carefully designed program can make do without that information."
14:23:52 <Vorpal> Well you could use IFFI I assume to do that
14:23:59 <ais523> yeah but it didn't exist at the time
14:24:15 <ais523> or you could use the FFI to C, which would probably be easier than the FFI to Befunge-98
14:24:21 <ais523> but that didn't exist at the time either
14:24:39 <Vorpal> anyway aren't there a few compiler language extensions in ick already?
14:24:51 <Vorpal> as opposed to libraries in the language
14:24:59 <Vorpal> IFFI and the C FFI obviously
14:25:19 <ais523> yeah, and even COME FROM is technically a C-INTERCAL extension
14:25:22 <ais523> although it became standard
14:25:32 <ais523> C-INTERCAL is the gcc of INTERCAL, really, if it does things they become standard
14:25:53 <Vorpal> you wield considerable power over a small group of people then ;P
14:26:12 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah; it's hard to be in the top n of the world at pretty much everything
14:26:25 <ais523> but luckily it doesn't take much dedication to become one of the world's top few INTERCAL programmers
14:26:47 <Vorpal> I can be one of the top n anything, if n is large enough
14:27:07 <ais523> where n is an appropriately-sized value :)
14:31:10 <Taneb> Note to self: don't try to IRC and Guitar Hero at the same time
14:31:15 <Taneb> Even on the really long notes
14:33:20 <ais523> Taneb: you could map the guitar to keys on the keyboard
14:33:29 <ais523> then you'd just have to find appropriate songs that let you play the sentences you wanted to type
14:34:19 <monqy> alt. clear your mind and let your desires channel the spirit of guitar hero; fill #esoteric with beautiful rockin poetry
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14:37:09 <nooga> i'm trying to find some resources on CPS and compiling functional languages
14:37:39 <Taneb> monqy, so here I lie
14:37:44 <Taneb> In the belly of a shark
14:39:11 <Gregor> A Facebook ad is inviting me to join the Freemasons.
14:39:41 <Gregor> Should MAAAAAYBE consider looking at my "religious views" info field before generating that ad.
14:41:25 <ais523> Gregor: I'm not sure how precise the targeting is, in that respect
14:41:27 <Taneb> Should I choose ice cream salesman based on political beliefs
14:41:47 <Gregor> ais523: Clearly not enough.
14:42:13 <ais523> Taneb: I thought you earlier said that there was only one ice cream shop in hexham, and it closed down
14:42:46 <Taneb> The one I like is closing down
14:42:56 <Taneb> And the handy ice cream van, the driver votes UKIP
14:44:06 <monqy> how does an ice cream man do vocal politics. that sounds like a bad idea
14:45:31 <Gregor> "Hey there little child, this ice cream bar costs 50p... and a secured UKIP vote from your parents."
14:45:57 <monqy> a bar of ice cream
14:45:59 <ais523> Gregor: do you not understand the concept of an ice cream van?
14:46:06 <ais523> (do they even exist in the US?)
14:46:12 <ais523> I guess they might have some for sale
14:46:17 <Gregor> ais523: Evidently not? I assume they are analogous to an ice cream truck?
14:46:27 <ais523> but they mostly exist for dispensing icecream into cones directly out of a machine
14:46:36 <Gregor> Right, totally different thing here.
14:46:39 <ais523> they drive around playgrounds and the like and play music so you know they're there
14:47:06 <Gregor> Ice cream trucks in the US serve the same purpose but sell ice cream bars and various prepackaged nonsense.
14:47:11 <AnotherTest> I must say they sometimes use a bell rather than music
14:47:13 <monqy> they also play music
14:47:17 <Taneb> The ice cream van that did the best ice cream in Hexham, the driver got arrested for drug dealing
14:47:30 <Gregor> Taneb: That's ALSO a tradition of American ice cream trucks!
14:47:37 <Gregor> (Reference: GTA: Vice City)
14:47:43 <monqy> i've never seen an ice cream truck but i've heard them. i've also seen depictions of an ice cream truck in action
14:47:51 <ais523> Taneb: ouch that's a bad combination
14:48:02 <monqy> drug-laced ice cream?
14:48:15 <ais523> Gregor: a typical ice cream van in the UK will have a small freezer containing a variety of prepackaged brand-name ice-cream just in case someone orders it
14:48:17 <ais523> but it's not used often
14:48:46 <Gregor> ais523: Right, just imagine that that's the entire thing, and you've got the American analogue.
14:48:59 <Gregor> We don't like fresh things in America.
14:49:03 <Gregor> If it's not packaged, it's not food.
14:51:20 <ais523> well, it's still not particularly fresh in that sense, they're still making it out of prepackaged artificial ice cream mix, rather than actual milk
14:52:23 <monqy> do they have astronaut ice cream
14:53:06 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Ice_Cream_Wars
14:54:33 <monqy> The conflicts, in which vendors raided one another's vans and fired shotguns into one another's windscreens, were more violent than might typically be expected between ice-cream salesmen.
14:54:48 <Gregor> “The conflicts, in which vendors raided one another's vans and fired shotguns into one another's windscreens, were more violent than might typically be expected between ice-cream salesmen.”
14:54:56 <Gregor> Hahah, we both quoted the same bit >_>
14:55:04 <kmc> in the US the trucks generally have soft serve machines and also prepackaged ice cream novelties
14:56:00 <ais523> gah, I've completely forgotten which side Phantom_Hoover is on the Glasgow vs. Edinburgh argument
14:56:15 <Gregor> ais523: The side with the least vowels.
14:56:33 <HackEgo> 459) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 615) <Phantom_Hoover> No you can't fight crime in Glasgow. <Phantom_Hoover> It's like trying to get rid of the space-time continuum. \ 783) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
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15:13:31 <nooga> I can't even buy "Lisp In Small Pieces" in Poland
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15:27:54 <fizzie> There's a single (I think US-style) ice cream truck company operating around here, but I think they've been cutting down the rounds, it's apparently not very profitable business any more.
15:28:45 <fizzie> I think we established on-channel that the ice cream truck melody is the same in here and in X, where X is somewhere not here, once.
15:35:01 <kmc> http://www.mistersoftee.com/ is a famous ice cream truck franchise in NYC
15:35:21 <kmc> their song is on that site
15:35:37 <kmc> yes, the premise of this brand is that you are eating Mr. Softee's hair / brains
15:38:22 <ais523> fizzie: there are multiple ice cream truck melodies in use in the UK
15:38:32 <ais523> also, you live in Finland, doesn't it have enough ice already?
15:42:19 <fizzie> ais523: I understand they are more profitable in the summer, where even we have a few slightly warm days.
15:42:34 <fizzie> Though I think they are an all-year operation.
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15:44:17 <fizzie> Possibly with a strongly pruned schedule in the winter. At least I don't remember having heard the tune in a while.
15:44:28 <fizzie> Could be they just dropped the nearby stop.
15:45:00 <fizzie> The website of the company running it doesn't have anything in English.
15:45:27 <fizzie> Also, apparently they sell (presumably frozen) pizzas now, too.
15:46:25 <kmc> they microwave them in the truck?
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15:47:08 <Koen_> microwaved pizzas? berk :(
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15:49:32 <kmc> they're fine
15:49:49 <kmc> in NYC there's a law that they can't play the music while not moving
15:49:52 <kmc> however it's routinely ignored
15:51:22 <kmc> Various Classes injured—Instruments of Torture—Encounters ; Servants, Beer-shops, Children, Ladies of elastic virtue—Effects on the Musical Profession—Retaliation — Police themselves disturbed—Invalids distracted—Horses run away—Children run over—A Cab-stand placed in tho Author's street attracts Organs—Mobs shouting out his Name— Threats to Burn his House—Disturbed in the middle of the night when very ill—An
15:55:29 <Koen_> Ladies of elastic virtue
15:58:06 <AnotherTest> What's a good length for a markov chain that generates text?
15:58:21 <ais523> AnotherTest: you could try asking fungot
15:58:21 <fungot> ais523: start hoi sir se control ki pura tym th0di na he mayo?
15:58:32 <ais523> I think it depends on your source material
15:58:38 <fungot> AnotherTest: k d i vil nt so met some hadsome boys. i even told mark in my dream of my world without you... for about 3 minutes
15:59:11 <AnotherTest> ais523: Source material will be previous messages
15:59:31 <AnotherTest> (In the context of IRC, that would mean what anyone says)
16:00:09 <ais523> AnotherTest: fungot already has a ^style IRC; you could ask fizzie about the settings it uses
16:00:09 <fungot> ais523: of course... you too!! please see your codes in flag to refer to ur own name? ya i also i since 1pm lo even worse. he's not around or just still asleep. i thought my dad wouldwake me up. last min gt reunion. i juz left house leh... ur thing end already
16:01:07 <AnotherTest> fizzie: what chain length do you use for fungot's markov chain?
16:01:07 <fungot> AnotherTest: in. should i approach... james for studiow rental too, dat we took on ur camera with that. something like a statistic?.. the real word is sarcasm... .nt scarcasim zouk on
16:01:31 <fungot> AnotherTest: only one place can sit. i go sell txtbk on monday. thanks
16:02:45 <kmc> AnotherTest: 3 to 5 characters is generally good
16:03:17 <kmc> or maybe 2 words, if you want to do it by words
16:03:24 <kmc> AnotherTest: you can do it either way
16:03:45 <AnotherTest> I think words might give better results though
16:04:02 <kmc> it depends on what kind of results you want
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16:04:17 <kmc> doing it by characters will make it generate a lot of non-words that are related to real words in an often humorous way
16:04:31 <kmc> my markov chain program (http://hackage.haskell.org/package/detrospector) has a mode specifically to print such words
16:04:37 <kmc> its name is an example of such a word
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16:04:44 <kmc> so it's also a convenient way to name software :)
16:05:03 <AnotherTest> Well, I want random looking results, but still in some way comprehensible
16:05:25 <Taneb> I still haven't figured a name for that function
16:05:29 <kmc> you could have both chains and choose between them with some probability
16:05:36 <kmc> what function Taneb?
16:05:52 <Taneb> kmc, for my Data.FamilyTree library
16:06:00 <AnotherTest> kmc: hm, that's actually a pretty interesting idea
16:06:09 <Taneb> Unifying traversePerson/traverseEvent/traverseFamily
16:06:38 <AnotherTest> Taneb: do you want 1 word for person event and family?
16:07:03 <Taneb> But I'd prefer one word for traversePerson and traverseFamily
16:07:11 <Taneb> (I don't particularly care about events)
16:07:49 <AnotherTest> traversePersonOrFamilyOrEventButIDontParticluaryCareAboutThat
16:07:54 <kmc> well people and families are both vehicles in the dawkinsian sense
16:08:10 <Taneb> kmc, I can't exactly call them vehicles
16:09:28 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Variable.
16:09:49 <fizzie> AnotherTest: See https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN for details.
16:11:13 * kmc googles Kneser-Ney smoothing, sees that the first page of hits is entirely PDFs
16:11:51 <fizzie> We've got an agglutinative language -- up to some degree, anyway; it's not quite all that -- and we do our language models with unsupervised morpheme segmentation -- https://github.com/aalto-speech/morfessor also fancy -- so we occasionally need large model orders.
16:14:22 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
16:14:35 <fizzie> fungot: I think that's enough of you typing like a texting teenager.
16:14:36 <fungot> fizzie: but soon, the university's cafeteria slowly kills my taste buds.
16:14:52 <fizzie> fungot: You don't even eat there; I do.
16:14:52 <fungot> fizzie: " thanks." or "" would push those two characters are much of a headache right now
16:16:22 <fizzie> `run words --finnish 10 # I think this one does N=4 character N-grams? Or possibly trigrams. Longer than bigrams, anyway.
16:16:25 <HackEgo> kurskymisempän kirityksensa kulmastuvillensa noudeksuaallani napausosiatyydemmilla ilmeiksiatereimpasi kynitaanne lopuvassanistaiseksy virkeimpiä saanillemalta
16:17:25 <fizzie> It doesn't do any cross-word modeling, though.
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16:34:07 <AnotherTest> I really don't see the point in taking down random things
16:35:33 <fizzie> It lets you feel like a real man, AIUI.
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18:13:34 * Bike points at topic
18:13:52 <ais523> Bike: I think NuclearMeltdown's been here before, it's OK
18:15:27 <NuclearMeltdown> https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here < there that's what was sent to freenode users
18:15:56 <coppro> Freenode always sets up a complex puzzle for april fools
18:16:36 <ais523> 2013/03? look of disapproval
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18:18:09 <ais523> and yeah, it looks a lot like BF, rather loosely coded as well
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18:19:04 <elliott> ais523: i think you may be mistaken about Bike's intentions
18:19:24 <NuclearMeltdown> It doesn't look like it takes any input. It just outputs "eprog"
18:19:28 <ais523> can you suggest an alternative explanation?
18:24:39 <elliott> ais523: perhaps Bike can :P
18:25:10 <Bike> nope, i'm clueless too
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18:26:36 <elliott> Bike: well it looked like ais523 was assuming the topic was helpful and you were trying to help NuclearMeltdown by saying that it's a channel about esolangs.
18:26:41 <elliott> but actually you were trying to trick them!!!!!!
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18:27:19 <ais523> elliott: no, I know the topic is useless
18:27:36 <elliott> almost as useless as the channel
18:27:36 <ais523> for both purposes, really (although it still has the link to the logs)
18:29:18 <FreeFull> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1bfojn/functor_is_now_a_superclass_of_monad_in_ghc_head/
18:30:34 <monqy> is this an april's fool
18:31:20 <Taneb> The code in the file it links to does not have it like that
18:34:31 <Bike> need a better joke... something people would like... probably a joke about corporations
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18:39:19 <ais523> incidentally, Slashdot's april fools thing is completely not funny this year
18:39:26 <ais523> although it's lead to some interesting discussion
18:39:46 <ais523> also someone who recognised rot13 was a substitution cipher, but apparently not the specific cipher, and so solved it by hand
18:39:52 <Vorpal> ais523, what is their joke? I never visit their site
18:40:22 <ais523> Vorpal: articles are being rot13ed and you have to log in to be able to derot13 them without interstitial ads
18:40:28 <ais523> in order to persuade people to log in
18:40:37 <monqy> that's not very funny
18:40:37 <ais523> (followed by at least four obviously fake stories, rot13ed)
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18:42:39 <ais523> slashdot's done some pretty good april 1 stuff in the past
18:42:51 <ais523> I missed omg ponies, but it's apparently one of the best april fools things ever (and this is before ponies became a meme)
18:43:10 <ais523> and the achievements thing was pretty good too
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19:26:51 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: confusing people who are trying to cheat in freenode's april fools quiz via /list
19:28:39 <fizzie> https://blog.freenode.net/2013/03/insert-witty-title-here has the starting point.
19:28:50 <fizzie> Though I have no idea whether they're still awarding any cloaks?
19:28:57 <fizzie> They had people who had solved it already, I think.
19:29:02 <elliott> what kind of cloak do you get anyway
19:29:17 <fizzie> Perhaps it says "i/am/a/fool".
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19:31:18 <Taneb> Should I put family-tree-4.0.0.0 on Hackage yet
19:32:12 <fizzie> A quick grep on all freenode logs reveals at least "april-fools/winner/thesecondest".
19:32:19 <fizzie> I suppose it'd be something like that.
19:32:27 <fizzie> Very prestigious, I'm sure.
19:33:20 <fizzie> (Uh, that is, "all of my personal logs that are from the freenode network", not "all freenode traffic ever".)
19:34:05 <fizzie> There's also a april-fools/winner/bjoern and that's all cloaks in my logs that contain the string "fool". Except for colchester-lug/silly-fool/donut, but that's probably not quiz-related.
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19:40:43 <oerjan> i seem to have forgotten to read the logs yesterday
19:41:36 <oerjan> monqy: wait do you mean March 30 didn't exist?
19:44:15 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:44:31 <oerjan> darn now monqy stopped existing too
19:45:00 <Taneb> oerjan, should I upload family-tree 4.0.0.0 to Hackage?
19:45:19 <ais523> oerjan: yes, march 31 was cancelled this year, they didn't have the budget for it
19:45:34 <Taneb> Yesterday was cancelled due to lack of interest
19:45:44 <Taneb> The pendulums were held and the clocks reset
19:46:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> Have I done enough in this community to warrant my own page on the wiki <-- i think you've done more than i had when i made my own page
19:46:48 <oerjan> you have more esolangs, although probably not as many programs in them.
19:47:04 <elliott> oerjan is notable because he is a wiki admin
19:47:07 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't have an opinion on family-tree
19:47:48 <oerjan> Taneb: although i think most people encourage uploading early and often
19:48:10 <oerjan> ais523: i'll just read the elaborate ruse then.
19:48:15 <kmc> by the time you finish reading this sentence edwardk has uploaded 27 additional package versions
19:49:27 <oerjan> elliott: have you passed me in number of edits yet?
19:49:29 -!- Mathnerd314 has changed nick to Mathnerd626.
19:49:34 <ThatOtherPerson> "You hear someone cursing shoplifters" <-- did NetHack just say that or am I sleeping?
19:49:41 <elliott> oerjan: hm good question. let me see if i can remember the query for that
19:50:01 <elliott> oerjan: also, yay? keep that up and you'll end up really being a wiki admin.
19:50:56 <Taneb> I don't like writing about myself, gah
19:51:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:52:16 <elliott> probably closer if you merge in my previous accounts
19:52:39 <elliott> cpressey has edited more than ais523, surprisingly
19:53:06 <ais523> I tend to make large single edits when writing about languages
19:53:39 -!- ais523 has quit.
19:53:48 <oerjan> i also make large single edits...
19:54:10 <oerjan> since i don't like taking over most of recent changes
19:54:25 <oerjan> i do lots of previews though.
19:55:19 <elliott> april fooles joke: preview buton saves the page
19:55:41 <oerjan> elliott: that fools the wrong person, i'm afraid
19:55:44 <fizzie> April fooles megajoke: preview baton deletes the page?
20:00:54 <Taneb> Can I, like, get one of you guys to right a page about me on the wiki
20:01:35 <Taneb> You don't understand
20:01:43 <Taneb> All the pages about me on the wiki are slanty
20:04:37 <oerjan> elliott: What we need is a template that turns the "rn" in Nathan van Doorn into an animation that cycles between rn and m.
20:05:11 <oerjan> only then can a proper page be made.
20:05:30 <oerjan> it might also contain small explosions.
20:05:39 <elliott> oerjan: how about it always says "rn", but has really bad keming.
20:07:41 <elliott> oerjan: btw you have to update the wiki for me
20:08:01 <oerjan> sic transit gloria wiki
20:09:32 <oerjan> google actually made that a suggestion when i typed the 'w'. sadly only about 9 hits.
20:09:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:10:21 <elliott> probably people wanting to look it up on WP
20:10:43 <oerjan> it looks like a _lot_ of phrases work that way.
20:10:51 -!- augur has joined.
20:11:33 <oerjan> i get "elliott wiki" as the last suggestion on the "wi"
20:12:18 <oerjan> similarly for oerjan, although it turns oe to ø
20:13:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:13:02 <oerjan> <Halite> I'd like to know an operation whose functionally completeness is unknown
20:14:04 <oerjan> i'm wondering if he means boolean completeness (in which case the answer is that it cannot be unknown as it's easy to check) or lambda calculus completeness
20:14:37 <oerjan> (also wondering if he knows what he means)
20:14:43 <elliott> probably the former. he was trying to make a language based around that last time.
20:15:04 <elliott> just allow the operation to be uncomputable
20:15:13 <oerjan> i think i saw a reddit post about it recently
20:15:48 <oerjan> elliott: um a boolean function of booleans in the usual sense cannot be uncomputable.
20:16:07 <elliott> oerjan: well if you case on whether RH is true or not then it's more that you don't know which of two functions it is.
20:16:09 <oerjan> it has, after all, a finite truth table
20:16:24 <elliott> that doesn't mean we know what the truth table is
20:18:02 <oerjan> the question then is whether we know the operation if we don't know its truth table.
20:18:58 <elliott> oerjan: well it's a case of, if you define the function as its truth table, then you know what the truth table is classically, but not constructively.
20:19:28 <elliott> IOW, the function only exists classically (unless you can decide RH, obviously)
20:26:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:27:57 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:30:54 <Taneb> Okay, now I have on my computer some HTML with naught but a h1 and a script switching the text of the h1 back and forth between "Nathan van Doorn" and "Nathan van Doom"
20:34:58 <Taneb> I wonder if it could be done with CSS rather than JavaScript
20:34:59 <fizzie> If I type "fizzie w", Google suggests I'm looking for a "fizzy wiki".
20:35:26 <Taneb> I get "tneb webmail"
20:36:24 <fizzie> Ooh, are you named after the Tamil Nadu Electricity Board?
20:44:32 -!- augur has joined.
20:47:05 -!- lahwran has changed nick to lahwran-.
20:47:07 -!- lahwran- has changed nick to lahwran.
20:49:36 <oerjan> Taneb: maybe the bad keming version could be made with just css.
20:50:54 <oerjan> i think running actual scripts might require elliott to do something.
20:52:48 <oerjan> as for css, i don't know enough of it to be sure
20:54:25 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
20:56:49 <fizzie> Doo<span style="letter-spacing: -Kpx;">rn</span>. With the right K. Possibly fractional. Possibly also some other unit.
20:57:32 <fizzie> Making a robustly bad keming across a variety of devices and renderers and fonts left as an exercise.
20:57:54 <oerjan> (that was to the second line)
20:58:44 <oerjan> surely em/ex would be better than px in terms of working across fonts, do css support that?
20:59:11 <fizzie> And I guess a "both" too, for good matter.
20:59:25 <fizzie> Where "good" means "bad"?
21:00:34 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, Tumblr seems to have turned into naught but pictures of Misha Collins
21:01:05 <ThatOtherPerson> The epic battle of XKCD vs. Wikipedia is currently ongoing
21:02:04 <ThatOtherPerson> (Protected List of fictional ducks: xkcd ([Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 09:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)) [Move=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (expires 09:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC))))
21:03:15 <oerjan> ok i made http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nathan_van_Doorn
21:04:11 <oerjan> i think the bold in the introduction looks good, the actual title could be wider?
21:04:54 <oerjan> -0.05 looks better there except has a slight gap between r and n
21:05:57 <oerjan> hm it seems like my browser doesn't distinguish -0.05, -0.04 and -0.03 much
21:06:23 <fizzie> Those are very small differences.
21:07:09 <oerjan> i was decreasing when i should be increasing
21:07:34 <oerjan> darn edit conflict you rascals
21:07:35 <elliott> Taneb: was that last edit you
21:07:48 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:07:53 <Taneb> I... don't think so
21:07:54 <fizzie> One thing that might make those values quantized is that some systems might also be rounding something to pixel boundaries to avoid fuzzy edges, I understand that happens.
21:08:15 <elliott> Taneb: was it one of your adoring fans
21:08:23 <Taneb> It very well may have been
21:08:35 <Taneb> I have more followers on Tumblr than Phantom_Hoover
21:08:36 <oerjan> -0.06 seemed best for me
21:09:26 <elliott> oerjan: older title space was better on my system fwiw
21:09:32 <elliott> like there is a noticeable space now
21:10:27 <FireFly> http://etc.firefly.nu/tmp/keming.html
21:10:47 * FireFly wants ::nth-letter(linearexpression)
21:11:35 <oerjan> elliott: what about now? -0.08
21:12:27 <FireFly> Currently it looks like 'm' to me FWIW
21:12:34 <elliott> oerjan: I deem this acceptable
21:12:39 <oerjan> i could increase to -0.09 if necessary, -0.1 is when it starts looking really fishy in my browser
21:12:44 <elliott> oerjan: as a reward you will become a wiki admin.
21:12:51 <oerjan> ok then we make this stand
21:13:20 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:13:26 -!- jix has joined.
21:13:37 <fizzie> There's a gap in the header even in the latest version for me, but really, too much fiddling. Unless you go the FireFly route.
21:14:50 <fizzie> Oh, I was assuming it actually used the positions of the individual letters to adjust it.
21:15:33 <oerjan> fizzie: was the original -0.1 version without a gap for you?
21:16:14 <fizzie> I'm not sure if I saw it. (For the reference, currently https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130401-DOOM.png like this.)
21:20:50 <fizzie> By the magic of Inspect Element, I've determined that for my system, it needs a letter-spacing of -0.117em or lower to be gapless, but that's probably going to break it for someone else.
21:21:15 <fizzie> (Also the shapes look quite clunky even when the balls are touching.)
21:21:44 <oerjan> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Nathan_van_Doorn&oldid=35927
21:22:45 <fizzie> It seems that -0.1em and -0.08em and even -0.116em all are identical for me. But best not to fiddle for me, I think.
21:24:55 <oerjan> ok now there's a basic page, others may add more if they deem appropriate (which i may remove if i deem inappropriate.)
21:25:04 <fizzie> Hrm. I've spent the whole Easter idly wondering why my MDCS parallel run is still in the queue. Now I went to check for the queue, and it wasn't there; just MATLAB hadn't noticed. The logfile indicates ssh said "WARNING: Your password has expired. Password change required but no TTY available." and died, and of course MATLAB never noticed a thing.
21:26:32 <fizzie> "connected to 44 labs." well won't you look at that.
21:26:48 <oerjan> oops the non-bold looks weird.
21:28:25 <oerjan> Taneb: your missing doctorate is just a formality, right?
21:28:45 <elliott> Taneb: ok wtf http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Nathan_van_Doorn&curid=8848&diff=35930&oldid=35929
21:28:51 <elliott> did you link that page somewhere or something
21:28:56 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]).
21:29:25 <elliott> oerjan: btw you forgot [[Category:People]] hth
21:29:35 <oerjan> i did already remove those bits btw. although i was ambivalent on the awesome part.
21:29:51 <Taneb> elliott, I am confused probably more than you
21:30:59 <fizzie> NetRange: 108.171.107.0 - 108.171.107.255. CustName: Black Oak Computers Inc - Miami.
21:31:41 <fizzie> Some sort of cheapo VPS provider.
21:32:05 <fizzie> Well, the "has a cheap VPS" predicate isn't an especially limiting one.
21:32:46 <fizzie> (I'm having slight doubts about the reliability of a provider calling itself ReliableHosting.com.)
21:33:40 <Bike> well, ,there you'd just assume they were being ironic
21:34:04 <oerjan> it means they can lie about it, again and again, hth
21:34:32 <elliott> oerjan: op me. I need to kick you
21:34:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:34:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:34:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:35:02 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
21:35:09 <oerjan> apparently not urgently enough.
21:35:19 <elliott> oerjan: hey hey give me a minute.
21:35:23 <elliott> i was typing a line in another channel.
21:35:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
21:35:40 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +o elliott.
21:35:40 <elliott> btw you can do /msg chanserv op #esoteric elliott to do it in one step.
21:35:44 -!- elliott has kicked oerjan oerjan.
21:35:45 <fizzie> You'd have to be a patient to believe elliott.
21:35:50 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +o Taneb.
21:35:52 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
21:35:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:36:37 <elliott> feels very assuring to have taneb watching over us imo
21:37:21 <Bike> doth is second person.......
21:37:45 -!- mb06cs has left ("**pouf**").
21:38:10 <Bike> But I just said it is. Why would I say it is if it wasn't true?
21:38:12 <oerjan> i suppose "doth" could somehow weirdly be both.
21:38:31 <oerjan> Bike: well look at the date...
21:39:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: !: not found
21:40:25 <oerjan> "In older forms of English, when the pronoun thou was in active use and verbs had a distinct second-person singular present-tense form, the verb do had two such forms: dost, in helping-verb uses, and doest, in other uses. (Naturally, these are both now archaic, though doest is less common than dost even as an archaism.)"
21:40:32 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1;
21:40:43 <zzo38> I don't yet have anything of how quantum operators are called and so on
21:40:45 <fizzie> `! should be like `? except with more forceful opinions on matters.
21:40:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: !: not found
21:41:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:41:29 <fizzie> I see where this is going.
21:42:04 <oerjan> `run cp bin/WELCOME bin/'!'; sed -i 's/welcome/\\!/' bin/'!'
21:42:05 <HackEgo> !`DETAk{݇H^O75Idp6{΅hdHg(P/.KY#qaާK;`GæC.R(Oya|f~n,jK,ɾN?I?SaNszt_-fߪ ))́ϒz?%TV]8|T1H`m߲&CjA5n嗣Aد¶O!8UX/QUwP`cX4ŤB|y?>ㄭ"m|
21:42:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:42:22 <fizzie> oerjan: It does not sound useful for ! to call !...
21:42:42 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
21:42:52 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 2: Cannot fork
21:43:22 <HackEgo> cat: bin/!: No such file or directory
21:43:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ngevd: not found
21:43:46 <oerjan> `run cp bin/WELCOME bin/'!'; sed -i 's/welcome/\\?/' bin/'!'
21:44:02 -!- Frooxius has joined.
21:44:20 <HackEgo> ELLIOTT WROTE THIS LEARN DB, AND WROTE OR IMPROVED MANY OF THE OTHER COMMANDS IN THIS BOT. HE PROBABLY HAS DONE OTHER THINGS? HE IS ALSO TIRE. AND A LYSTROSAUR.
21:44:40 <FireFly> `! should probably also substitute all dots with exclamation marks
21:44:42 <HackEgo> SHOULD PROBABLY ALSO SUBSTITUTE ALL DOTS WITH EXCLAMATION MARKS? ¯\(°_O)/¯
21:45:12 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:45:15 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:45:32 -!- carado has joined.
21:47:29 <HackEgo> C IS THE LANGUAGE OF��V�>WIד�.��SEGMENTATION FAULT
21:47:36 <fizzie> `sed -i 's#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:47:38 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
21:47:46 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:47:48 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 25: unterminated `s' command
21:47:56 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:48:06 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
21:48:28 <fizzie> `run sed -i '2s#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # I'll probably ruin it
21:48:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
21:48:48 <fizzie> How did that happen, with an address and all.
21:49:06 <fizzie> Oh, I guess I didn't actually revert anything.
21:49:43 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's/ | sed.*//' bin/!
21:49:46 <oerjan> um or you reverted something _else_.
21:49:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:50:14 <fizzie> `run sed -i '2s#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # I'll DEFINITELY ruin it
21:50:18 <fizzie> oerjan: You win some, you lose some.
21:50:24 <HackEgo> MONADS ARE JUST MONOIDS IN THE CATEGORY OF ENDOFUNCTORS!
21:50:39 <oerjan> Gregor: argh something is wrong with the repository browser
21:51:19 <oerjan> it doesn't show anything after my first bin/! change attempt
21:51:24 <FireFly> That's where I recognize your nick from
21:55:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
21:55:19 <oerjan> well that looks right anyway
21:55:52 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:56:10 <ThatOtherPerson> FireFly: I've given up on #0x10c-dev for now, and am loitering around here instead
21:56:40 <FireFly> The first part seems to apply to Notch as well
21:56:44 <oerjan> _that_ got into the repository.
21:56:47 <ThatOtherPerson> Because it's full of smart people and I am marginally interested in esoteric languages
21:57:44 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/|/| /' bin/'!'
21:57:53 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
21:58:16 <oerjan> nope, that did show up fine...
21:58:57 <oerjan> @tell Gregor the repository browser isn't showing fizzie's changes to bin/!
22:00:00 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:00:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc'
22:01:18 <oerjan> @tell Gregor it got worse, after i did a change, fizzie's changes disappeared D:
22:02:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s#$# | sed -e s/[.?]/\!/g#' bin/\! # Testing fizzie's last command
22:02:28 <fizzie> I think it just doesn't like me. :/ :\
22:02:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \! "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
22:02:52 <oerjan> hm that may be, as that did show up
22:03:11 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 2: Cannot fork \ /hackenv/bin/!: 2: Cannot fork
22:03:27 <oerjan> fizzie: actually it also forgot my own changes.
22:04:04 <oerjan> `run sed -i '2s/!/?/' bin/'!'
22:04:13 <fizzie> Old age doesn't come alone.
22:04:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
22:04:22 <HackEgo> FIZZIE IS RUMOURED TO BE WRITTEN IN FUNGE-98!
22:05:28 <HackEgo> TANEB IS NOT ELLIOTT, NO MATTER WHO YOU ASK! HE ALSO ISN'T A RABBI ALTHOUGH HE HAS PRETENDED IN THE PAST! (SEE ALSO: D-MODULES)
22:06:15 <Taneb> `! ThatOtherPerson
22:06:17 <HackEgo> THATOTHERPERSON! ¯\(°_O)/¯
22:08:15 <fizzie> The <@Taneb> looks kind of confusing.
22:09:09 <Taneb> When did that happen
22:09:37 <oerjan> our impending doom is a little absent minded
22:09:41 <fizzie> Half an hour or so ago.
22:12:50 <HackEgo> HEJ OCH VäLKOMMEN TILL DEN INTERNATIONELLA KNUTPUNKTEN FöR DESIGN OCH DISTRIBUTION AV ESOTERISKA PROGRAMSPRåK! FöR MER INFORMATION, SE VåR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS!ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE! (FöR DEN ANDRA SORTENS ESOTERISM, PRöVA #ESOTERIC På IRC!DAL!NET!)
22:14:30 <elliott> please fix the unicode there :(
22:14:35 <elliott> as in, it should be capitalising all letters, not just [a-z].
22:14:36 <Taneb> > length "Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php"
22:14:53 <Taneb> > length "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"
22:15:17 <Taneb> > length "Poochiewuddledumpling-Boobledarling"
22:15:35 <elliott> Taneb conducts vital operator research
22:15:44 <FireFly> er oh, it was a perl thing
22:16:05 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
22:17:14 <FireFly> `run perl -e 'print(uc "räksmörgås")'
22:17:58 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, ^list means Homestuck update
22:18:49 <variable> some people here might be interested in this http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5
22:19:55 <Taneb> I've seen that site before, back when I didn't know any C
22:20:01 <elliott> @tell kmc http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5
22:20:30 <Bike> doesn't kmc know about that already
22:20:36 <Bike> or is that the joke
22:23:38 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]).
22:23:44 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell ThatOtherPerson http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5
22:25:57 <fizzie> `run sed -i 's/perl/perl -C7/' bin/\!
22:26:04 <HackEgo> HEJ OCH VÄLKOMMEN TILL DEN INTERNATIONELLA KNUTPUNKTEN FÖR DESIGN OCH DISTRIBUTION AV ESOTERISKA PROGRAMSPRÅK! FÖR MER INFORMATION, SE VÅR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS!ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE! (FÖR DEN ANDRA SORTENS ESOTERISM, PRÖVA #ESOTERIC PÅ IRC!DAL!NET!)
22:27:42 <Fiora> wow, the underhanded results from the 2009 contest are really cool
22:27:49 <Fiora> the winner's is just so sneaky
22:27:59 <FireFly> The older ones are also nice
22:28:17 <FireFly> Was 2009 the airport luggage thing?
22:28:48 -!- nooga has joined.
22:30:03 <Bike> wait did they name the winners today
22:30:06 <Bike> four years later
22:30:24 -!- nooodl__ has joined.
22:30:41 <elliott> i love things that seem to have no conception of time
22:31:02 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\!: No such file or directory
22:31:10 <HackEgo> cat: bin/1: No such file or directory
22:31:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \? "$@" | perl -C7 -pe '$_ = uc' | sed -e s/[.?]/!/g
22:31:31 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl.
22:31:45 <Bike> RHays's is pretty nice indeed
22:31:59 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:32:39 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
22:32:53 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\1/g"'
22:32:55 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 34: unterminated `s' command
22:33:11 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\1/g":'
22:33:12 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 35: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
22:33:26 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\\1/g":'
22:33:35 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:sed.*:sed -e "s/[.?]( |$)/!\\1/g":' bin/\!
22:33:46 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 17: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
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22:34:22 <fizzie> I think it's hokay even with mid-dot changes.
22:34:35 <fizzie> (But you wanted \( \) there, for sed.)
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22:35:45 <FireFly> I thought it'd be nice to at least fix the URLs
22:35:57 <fizzie> They're more forceful that way.
22:36:27 <fizzie> Post dot-coms, it's the era of shout-coms.
22:36:40 <olsner> I guess we have to register ESOLANGS!ORG as a TLD
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22:37:56 <oerjan> fizzie: obviously the other esotericians should register that.
22:38:16 <olsner> I think it's up to dalnet if they want to be reachable under that name
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22:39:21 <Bike> it's like an old uunet bangpath! or whatever that was
22:40:46 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:41:15 <kmc> elliott: woah underhanded C contest is back
22:41:21 <kmc> thanks for the heads up
22:41:40 <Bike> any time in the last four years
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22:42:23 <elliott> eventually I will remind kmc of all the things
22:42:28 <elliott> and he will be so in my debt
22:42:33 <elliott> well I haven't thought that far yet
22:43:16 <kmc> Taneb: hello i'm bear
22:43:30 <Bike> who's opping? bear is opping
22:43:46 -!- Taneb has kicked kmc I can't bear bears.
22:44:18 <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back
22:44:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
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22:45:10 <elliott> dammit kmc you disproved my prediction
22:45:11 <Gregor> `addquote <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric
22:45:12 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:45:15 <HackEgo> 1005) <elliott> prediction: kmc never comes back * kmc has joined #esoteric
22:45:33 <kmc> http://pbfcomics.com/37/
22:45:49 <Bike> kmc: you saw http://www.updrafters.com/PBF/ right
22:46:13 <Bike> ok well you have now
22:46:41 <kmc> i've seen it; i can't un-see it
22:46:59 <elliott> this thing almost fooled me into believing it's kickstarter
22:47:40 <elliott> oh it's not a knock-off, it's a stupid day
22:47:55 <Bike> http://www.updrafters.com/about/about.html cool
22:48:14 <Bike> "Aquatic Journeys: The Wet Dreams of Neil Gaiman" no yeah best parody of kickstarter since kickkstriker
22:48:27 <elliott> best parody of kickstarter since kickstarter
22:51:35 <elliott> the neil gaiman one is a 404 :'(
23:06:33 <Taneb> ~eval fold [Sum 1]
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23:19:32 <oerjan> <Vorpal> AnotherTest, freenode has a first of April quiz, we were/are trolling the guys who try to cheat by looking in /list.
23:20:02 <oerjan> (1) it's not a first april quiz, but an easter egg hunt in the american tradition.
23:20:41 <elliott> oerjan: it is 1st april-related
23:20:46 <elliott> the cloak they give out mentions april fools
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23:21:26 <oerjan> they started it before april 1 in any western timezones though
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23:21:32 <elliott> btw freenode is very unstable right now.
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23:22:00 <fizzie> oerjan: "Like every year, we would like to invite our users to take part in the April 1st quiz and have the chance to win an April Fools’ cloak."
23:22:22 <oerjan> Taneb: wait wait you needed to kick me for being wrong!
23:22:37 <Taneb> oerjan, it is okay
23:22:42 <Taneb> You were right all along
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23:23:53 <oerjan> also (2) still doth apply
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23:25:57 <elliott> oerjan: if you op me i'll take care of it
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23:32:12 <elliott> oerjan: https://github.com/ekmett/free/issues/15
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23:33:56 <elliott> i was linking it for the crushing edwardk criticism, of course.
23:34:15 <oerjan> i saw the title and thought that meant it had been changed D:
23:34:31 <oerjan> although i actually knew the issue he mentions
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23:40:11 <Taneb> Both the hats and the FPS minigame
23:40:25 <HackEgo> pib1999: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:47:31 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainbow
23:47:40 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import random \ import re \ w=raw_input() \ p=list('x'*len(w)+'C'*int((341-len(w))/3+1)) \ random.shuffle(p) \ p=list(re.sub('C+','C',''.join(p))) \ i=(c for c in w) \ print ''.join(i.next() if c=='x' else chr(3)+'%02d' % random.randrange(2,15) for c in ['C']+p)
23:49:47 <Sgeo> http://clochure.org/
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23:51:52 <oerjan> girl genius hasn't updated :/
23:54:31 <GOMADWarrior> http://187.65.193.132:8080/anoncollab/projects.php
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23:59:11 <elliott_> GOMADWarrior: from trolling #haskell to spamming offtopic links here...?
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00:02:33 <oerjan> <Taneb> Today's Comments on a Postcard is somewhat odd
00:03:08 <Sgeo> How's the pbf kickstarter going?
00:03:32 <Bike> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4708
00:04:04 <oerjan> @tell taneb Yesterday's COAP looks very much like Shaenon K. Garrity drew it
00:04:12 <elliott> Sgeo: is this about Bike's link.
00:04:39 <elliott> as far as I know the only PBF-related kickstarter was the one to erase the US national debt, and it failed
00:04:46 <Sgeo> elliott, depends. Am I a future psychic?
00:05:10 <Sgeo> Oh, it's not a kickstarter, it's an ... updrafter
00:05:57 <Sgeo> I know it's an April Fools Joke, but I thought it was a real joke Kickstarter
00:06:15 <Bike> sgeo. dude. *puts my arm around your shoulder* did you watch the video? did you notice the rewards? it's okay man. it's okay, we're here for you in this time of need for you and your perceptual capabilities
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00:07:02 <Sgeo> I noticed the rewards. I thought it was a piece of silliness put on actual Kickstarter
00:08:21 <Sgeo> I didn't notice the video
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00:11:16 <Bike> *removes arm from shoulder*
00:12:09 <oerjan> @tell taneb Also Egypt _is_ vaguely near Ethiopia, so something is clearly horribly wrong there
00:13:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: you should check your purse hth
00:15:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: that Bike character looks quite shady
00:15:57 * Bike slowly pedals himself away
00:17:56 <Bike> actually it's just the one
00:18:00 <oerjan> elliott: i _told_ you he was shady
00:18:00 <Bike> thanks for reminding me, asshole
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01:19:22 <Gregor> I'm finally starting to understand the Nexus thing.
01:19:43 <Gregor> Google is taking an interesting approach to being manufacturer-neutral by having their "first party" product line be made by /several/ manufacturers.
01:19:45 <fungot> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...too much output!
01:20:07 <Gregor> LG, Asus and Samsung all manufacturing Android devices under the same brand name…
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01:41:27 <ion> t̵̤̠̰̫͔̼̣͔̘̥̪͕̳̫̼̪͉͍͆̇̇ͧ́̎ͦ̄͂ͥ̊̇̚̕͠e̝͖͉̮̙͖̠͇̘͇̊ͪ̆͆ͩ̇̓ͥ̑̏̊ͯ͟r̸̛̒͌̌̒́̐̆͒͒̀͏̻̹̪̣v̺̪̯͉͎̱̜͚͎̖͙̞͕̗̙̱ͬ̿̈́ͦͥ͒͢͟ͅe̡̧̞̼̭̘̱̪̣̪̘̤͎̣̜ͮ̈́ͫ̓͌̾̐ͫ̈͞t̛ͨͪ̉ͦ̇̊ͫͮ͑̿͂̃ͯ̄́̀͢͏̷̦̰̠̮u̵̝̜̣̱̮͎̳͔̳̳͙̮ͥ͋̏̂ͧͬ̌̈́̿́͘l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕
01:41:29 <ion> ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͍̭͚̹͉̖̯̣͉͈͑̅̇͋ͨ͐͑ͪͮͮ̈́̈́͂̚̚͠͡ͅͅ
01:41:38 <ion> I wonder why WeeChat keeps splitting these to multiple lines?
01:41:59 <ion> It was a single line in the input line before i hit return.
01:42:17 <oerjan> it is clearly too much for a single line to handle
01:42:46 <ion> Oh, perhaps these actually don’t fit to the maximum IRC command length.
01:43:02 <Koen_> ion: wtf did you do to my screen :(
01:43:19 <oerjan> t̵̤̠̰̫͔̼̣͔̘̥̪͕̳̫̼̪͉͍͆̇̇ͧ́̎ͦ̄͂ͥ̊̇̚̕͠e̝͖͉̮̙͖̠͇̘͇̊ͪ̆͆ͩ̇̓ͥ̑̏̊ͯ͟r̸̛̒͌̌̒́̐̆͒͒̀͏̻̹̪̣v̺̪̯͉͎̱̜͚͎̖͙̞͕̗̙̱ͬ̿̈́ͦͥ͒͢͟ͅe̡̧̞̼̭̘̱̪̣̪̘̤͎̣̜ͮ̈́ͫ̓͌̾̐ͫ̈͞t̛ͨͪ̉ͦ̇̊ͫͮ͑̿͂̃ͯ̄́̀͢͏̷̦̰̠̮u̵̝̜̣̱̮͎̳͔̳̳͙̮ͥ͋̏̂ͧͬ̌̈́̿́͘l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕ ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͑̅̇͋ͨ͐̚
01:43:25 <shachaf> ion.....................................
01:43:36 <oerjan> oerjan: t̵̤̠̰̫͔̼̣͔̘̥̪͕̳̫̼̪͉͍͆̇̇ͧ́̎ͦ̄͂ͥ̊̇̚̕͠e̝͖͉̮̙͖̠͇̘͇̊ͪ̆͆ͩ̇̓ͥ̑̏̊ͯ͟r̸̛̒͌̌̒́̐̆͒͒̀͏̻̹̪̣v̺̪̯͉͎̱̜͚͎̖͙̞͕̗̙̱ͬ̿̈́ͦͥ͒͢͟ͅe̡̧̞̼̭̘̱̪̣̪̘̤͎̣̜ͮ̈́ͫ̓͌̾̐ͫ̈͞t̛ͨͪ̉ͦ̇̊ͫͮ͑̿͂̃ͯ̄́̀͢͏̷̦̰̠̮u̵̝̜̣̱̮͎̳͔̳̳͙̮ͥ͋̏̂ͧͬ̌̈́̿́͘l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕ ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͑̅̇
01:44:58 <ion> Yeah, those take quite a few bytes. What i wrote/pasted took 506 bytes. WeeChat split it at the first space (after the colon), and the remaining part still didn’t fit in a command so it split it again.
01:45:49 <ion> shachaf: http://heh.fi/tmp/ghci-prompt
01:45:51 <oerjan> ion: um i just wrote it as one line didn't i?
01:46:27 <ion> oerjan: With much less combining characters judging from what wc says about it.
01:47:43 <ion> Sorry, my bad. Your paste didn’t drop any combining characters after all, i think.
01:48:38 <oerjan> i don't think i got all at the end
01:49:47 <oerjan> hm, maybe it actually got cut off by the limit
01:49:55 <oerjan> ͙̮l͋ͦͩͮ͏̷̧̦̝̳̩̭̕o̴̷͖̘ͨ̇ͪͭ̐ͬ̀͑ͯ̒̕ ̣̺͖͈̺̰̣͈̞̪̠̯̱͔͕a͍̭͚̹͉̖̯̣͉͈͑̅̇͋ͨ͐͑ͪͮͮ̈́̈́͂̚̚͠͡ͅͅ
01:50:39 <ion> I think your paste lacked the combining characters that ended up on my second line before any normal character.
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01:51:05 * Koen_ takes a tissue and rubs the computer screen
01:51:19 <ion> And that was enough to make it fit to a single command.
01:51:33 <oerjan> ion: well they look like the same mess as yours in the logs.
01:51:59 <oerjan> ion: in the logs, mine is clearly cut off at the end
01:52:54 <oerjan> in this browser which shows it has a horrible uncombined mess
01:57:25 <zzo38> There are now Japanese announcements for VGMCK.
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02:01:42 <zzo38> It is not the first time I made something which Japanese people have used afterward.
02:07:59 <zzo38> A program to write music in .VGM format
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02:09:56 <Lumpio-> Write as in compose, convert from something else, or?
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02:18:51 <zzo38> To compose your own music using MML.
02:20:22 <hagb4rdoux> hi zzo38: how is your little sound processing project processing? got a repo?
02:20:45 <zzo38> hagb4rdoux: What sound processing project do you mean?
02:21:13 <hagb4rdoux> erm..pardon.. progressing..going on.. what its state
02:21:47 <hagb4rdoux> damn it y am i still habardoux when joining
02:22:04 <oerjan> hagb4rdoux: it's your inner frenchman revolting
02:22:17 <zzo38> Other programs to write your own music in .VGM format do exist, such as XPMCK and DefleMask and a few others, although VGMCK supports more chips than the others, and some other features are also more complete.
02:22:21 <hagb4rdoux> shitty nettalk can't handle its appdata..though its a portable version!!
02:22:26 <zzo38> hagb4rdoux: That isn't answering my question.
02:22:39 -!- hagb4rdoux has changed nick to hagb4rd.
02:24:39 <hagb4rd> however you are correct.. it is not
02:28:48 <hagb4rd> zzo38.secretsoundrevolution.onComplete(share(this, hagb4rd));
02:30:12 <hagb4rd> it seems you are in the confuse the world with shortcuts of ideas i recently read about phase
02:30:30 <Bike> it seems you are in the confuse the world
02:30:32 <zzo38> That doesn't answer my question either.
02:30:57 <zzo38> I don't know what little sound processing project you meant!
02:32:13 <hagb4rd> okay..sry then. maybe it was someone else then. i guess.
02:33:31 <HackEgo> 2013-04-02.txt:02:33:01: <hagb4rd> `log rectang.*wave
02:33:40 <hagb4rd> maybe it was another spacetime
02:35:31 <oerjan> shachaf: eek it's spreading https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/liyang/profunctors
02:36:06 <shachaf> oerjan: imo beaky should sue liyang for libel
02:36:29 <oerjan> hagb4rd: maybe zzo38 has too many to guess
02:36:46 <oerjan> shachaf: nah, that would be too easy
02:38:12 <hagb4rd> it wasn't that important.. we were just sayin hello..stating we're not ready to change the world with our superficial collaboration :P
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03:08:50 <hagb4rd> this song is crashing my heart like a train https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_DVS_303kQ ..(but i'm lost within a happy crowd of intelligent but sense-o-less nerds. #esoteric is the only place i can go)
03:11:51 <hagb4rd> where do the irc-folks go when they get older and ..sillier?
03:12:31 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:13:11 <oerjan> i'm old and silly, but i don't click voluntarily on heart-crashing links. hth.
03:16:12 <Sgeo> hagb4rd, btw you were wrong
03:16:27 <Sgeo> That environment variable wouldn't have helped. Happened to see what it contained, it already had .cmd
03:19:15 <hagb4rd> but you always shall strike me down with your rightous anger if needed!
03:21:45 * hagb4rd calms and relax oerjan having his swat equipped and ready to draw
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03:32:04 <elliott> i can't tell if hagb4rd is always really stoned or just a bit crazy
03:32:31 <Bike> he knows windows pretty well. it's possible he's a sysadmin
03:32:41 <Bike> which would answer that question pretty conclusively i think
03:33:47 <oerjan> you are _this_ close to getting quoted, you two
03:34:48 <shachaf> Why are indexed monads not "categories in the category of endofunctor" or whatever it is?
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03:48:18 <oerjan> mse claims sigfpe's blog contains a virus
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03:54:53 <HackEgo> fowl_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:54:54 <elliott> oerjan: it's a virus of the mind.
03:57:33 <oerjan> shachaf: mike seems to say in the comments of http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/02/beyond-monads.html that it's a 2-category, not a category.
03:58:46 <oerjan> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/02/beyond-monads.html?showComment=1235695560000#c8394868375577042271
03:59:19 <oerjan> shachaf: profile says so
04:03:54 <zzo38> Storm Core is another ARMv2 implementation, other than Amber Core. Storm Core is not fixed to Xilinx Spartan-6, and runs at 80MHz on a Spartan-3, but is written in VHDL. Can Verilog and VHDL programs be combined in a FPGA? Can a single program have some files in Verilog and some in VHDL?
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04:11:53 <zzo38> Do you know what features of ARMv2 are used by GCC?
04:11:58 <shachaf> Hopefully unrelated to my question mark thing.
04:14:37 <elliott> wait what did kmc even say
04:14:40 <kmc> i'm horribly insecure and don't need to hear about how i'm just a "code monkey" because I don't know enough about machine learning
04:15:00 <kmc> conversation in another channel
04:15:33 <kmc> i was having a shitty day anyway so it's just, can't deal with that too
04:16:01 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
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04:16:44 <elliott> kmc: sorry people are being shitty :(
04:16:45 <kmc> thanks shachaf, lambdabot
04:17:03 <elliott> they should know I have a monopoly on that
04:17:32 <Bike> machine learning seems like an odd thing to lightningrod on anyway
04:17:45 <Bike> people have their own specialties, nothing wrong with just knowing how to code... and you know a lot more than coding anyway
04:18:15 <Fiora> yeah, geez. you're one of the smartest CS people I know
04:18:19 <kmc> i've probably made similar statements about functional programming or whatever in the past
04:18:33 <kmc> i think i'm getting a broader perspective over time
04:18:37 <Fiora> then again I've felt that way lately too sometimes so >_<
04:19:06 <shachaf> You've felt like one of the smartest CS people you know?
04:19:14 <kmc> i took a intro ML class; it was cool and I did pretty well, but it didn't grab me as "omg I must study this forever and use it everywhere"
04:19:28 <elliott> yeah haskell is way cooler [THE JOKE IS ML,]
04:19:44 <kmc> i think there's a huge gap between knowing the basic techniques and actually getting them to work on messy real world stuff
04:19:44 <elliott> come on that was pretty good.
04:19:48 <kmc> and i'm happy to leave that up to other people
04:19:50 <kmc> elliott: nein
04:19:51 * Bike shakes elliott
04:19:56 <kmc> i read that as "shanks"
04:20:04 <shachaf> elliott: if by good you mean bad then it was still pretty bad
04:20:05 <Fiora> shachaf: no that is not what I meant -_-
04:20:26 <elliott> well the joke has personal meaning to me
04:20:32 <elliott> because i read kmc's line that way originally and it confused me
04:23:56 <Bike> kmc: it is weird to me that the person who wrote that jit spraying thing is talking about "messy real world stuff" just fyi
04:25:09 <Bike> it's true it wasn't
04:25:46 <Bike> i'm bored of hume. tell me what to do.
04:26:16 <Bike> i'm not going to "do" smullyan he's like 90
04:27:57 <Fiora> kmc: I could kind of say something but I think I will just like, point to what bike said
04:28:26 <kmc> yeah I like messy real world stuff when it's, like, debuggers and kernels
04:28:29 <kmc> MATLAB not so much
04:28:33 <kmc> happy to leave that to someone else
04:28:43 <shachaf> I can go work at this CV company.
04:28:52 <kmc> shachaf: sure, why not
04:29:19 <kmc> i used to be pretty into graphics too, but haven't done much of that in a while... kind of miss it
04:29:19 <shachaf> I don't know if I want to. :-(
04:29:40 <shachaf> It is surely better than doing nothing.
04:29:42 <kmc> "sorry I'm turning in my graphics homework late because I spent all weekend coding a fractal visualizer to entertain tripping people instead"
04:30:05 <kmc> this works iff the graphics prof shows up to the party where you're showing off the fractals
04:31:06 <shachaf> Hmm, I know pretty much nothing about ML.
04:31:30 <Fiora> kmc: also like two weeks ago I basically angsted myself into an anxious heap after spending 4 hours realizing how clueless I was at C++ at work
04:31:56 <elliott> Fiora: what you have to realise is that everybody on the planet is clueless at C++
04:32:00 <Fiora> which sort of goes to the same thing, like, people say "oh you must be brilliant you do all this amazing super hard simd stuff and you know SSE and everything!" and I'm like "I don't know how virtual functions work"
04:32:08 <elliott> even if you learn things about it, you just discover new ways in which it makes you clueless
04:32:16 <kmc> have you read the C++ FAQ Lite?
04:32:35 <elliott> I think I understand C++ templates about twice as well as the language itself
04:32:37 <kmc> i think it's pretty good for getting an overview of most of the stuff in the language
04:32:45 <Fiora> I've read some things, it's just, I spend a few hours struggling with error messages caused by not knowing I needed pure virtual functions, and deried calsses and constructors and aghghghgh
04:32:48 <elliott> because I kind of learned them first
04:32:59 <oerjan> <shachaf> well hume is dead <-- exhumed?
04:33:19 <shachaf> `addquoerjan <shachaf> well hume is dead <-- exhumed?
04:33:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: addquoerjan: not found
04:33:37 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:33:46 <shachaf> Fiora: isn't that how learning things is supposed to work
04:33:57 <Fiora> yes but like i am supposed to know this
04:34:47 <shachaf> Well, now you know how pure virtual functions work.
04:34:55 <shachaf> You are a superior person to old Fiora.
04:35:22 <elliott> is the joke rating people's worth by how many things they've memorised
04:35:32 <shachaf> the joke is old Fiora is younger than current Fiora
04:35:40 <shachaf> so maybe she should be called young Fiora
04:36:44 <kmc> mind = blown
04:37:49 <kmc> i wonder who was the last person who understood everything about computers that was known at the time
04:38:07 <Fiora> I'm not saying it's the end of the world or it's bad or anyhting I guess
04:38:12 <kmc> i found this amazing computer book from the 60's
04:38:20 <kmc> which is mostly about weird tricks for building analog computers
04:38:36 <kmc> out of like neon light bulbs and metal discs cut into peculiar shapes and shit like that
04:38:45 <Fiora> I am expressing a similar experience to kmc in order to build rapport and make him feel as if he is not alone, right? <.<
04:38:54 <kmc> yes i think so
04:39:22 <kmc> one of my dreams is a computer that's made out of high voltage arcs in air
04:39:26 <pikhq> Fiora: No, I am building rapport so I can demolish it, thereby making him feel more alone than he ever thought possible.
04:39:39 <kmc> seems not implausible that you could build logic gates this way
04:39:52 <kmc> it has hysteresis since the ionized air conducts better than regular air
04:39:58 <kmc> and you can have complicated geometric arrangements
04:40:09 <kmc> also it floats upward so maybe that's useful?
04:40:17 <Fiora> kmc: has bike linked you to the, um. was it a hamster computer?
04:40:25 <kmc> haven't seen that
04:40:30 <Fiora> it was some animal computer
04:40:35 <Fiora> er, animal logic gate
04:40:35 <shachaf> _The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag_
04:40:51 <pikhq> Well, I guess you can build computers from string and apples, so...
04:41:04 <Fiora> oh, crabs, I think?
04:41:16 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749
04:41:22 <Fiora> I think that's the one bike linked me
04:41:31 <zzo38> Computers can be made in all of these ways?
04:41:33 <kmc> ah yes the crabputer
04:41:35 <zzo38> I didn't know that.
04:42:34 <kmc> that's the best
04:42:42 <kmc> i mentioned it in a lecture and the students were pleased
04:43:22 <kmc> crabputer, crabputer, work like computer, taste like crab
04:43:37 <kmc> it has an "intimidation plate"
04:44:04 <shachaf> Computer? She can solve the 'alting problem!
04:50:23 <shachaf> Fiora: pshufb isn't fast like the other shuffles?
04:51:18 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe Atom was relevant to the code I used pshufb with.
04:51:57 <Fiora> yeah, pshufb is fast on *most* things, I think. the atom is a big exception
04:52:27 <Fiora> I have no idea how they managed to make it 6/6, just, geez @_@ all the other shuffles are fast too
04:53:35 <shachaf> Pretty crazy that that even exists. I thought they were still on 22nm or something, but now they're using the atom?
04:53:55 <Fiora> from what I've heard I think the atom is kind of an old architecture at this point, like, all the updates to it have been just shrinks?
04:54:05 <Fiora> there's a next-gen atom coming out soonish though, supposedly it'll be way better
04:54:17 <shachaf> (it was just a stupid pun, sorry)
04:54:40 <Fiora> that joke was good and I am bad for missing it
04:54:41 * kmc shoves shachaf into an ion trap
04:55:04 <shachaf> imo ion would be a better fit.
04:55:29 <Fiora> there's a few other really ridiculously slow instructions on low-power chips, from what I remember
04:55:34 <Fiora> I think the bobcat has like a 20-cycle or something palignr
04:55:40 <Fiora> which is a 1 or 2 cycle instruction on everything else in the cosmos
04:56:13 <shachaf> I wish I knew about all the things Fiora knows about instead of boring things like pure virtual functions in C++.
04:56:23 <shachaf> then maybe i could be cool like Fiora and use a haswell????
04:56:27 <kmc> you can combine your knowledge
04:56:33 <kmc> through internet relay chat
04:56:33 <Fiora> geez it's really not that cool...
04:57:05 <kmc> i think for one release cycle, Ubuntu supported an architecture called "lpia" which was i386 but compiled specifically to run well on low power chips
04:57:07 <shachaf> i didn't say it was cool i said you were cool
04:57:18 <shachaf> also i only use the word "cool" ironically
04:57:23 <kmc> coolronically
04:57:30 <shachaf> which isn't to say i don't mean it
04:57:50 <elliott> life tip: ignore everything shachaf says in lowercase
04:57:51 <kmc> shachaf: the curse of irony
04:58:11 * shachaf glabnu ste gyatovlip trag yalofato sru inga tlom tugafasi
04:58:28 <shachaf> elliott: second life tip: ignore everything shachaf says in uppercase
04:58:36 <Bike> so uh i just explained Functor to a perl programmer
04:58:42 <Bike> is there like... a support group i can sign up for
04:58:54 <kmc> shachaf: halp
04:58:56 <kmc> that's not rot13
04:59:02 <Fiora> (fiora is not actually cool, she just has a dumb autistic brain that memorizes dumb things that aren't useful and then has nobody to talk with about them)
04:59:04 <kmc> it's not rot13 english anyway
04:59:08 <Bike> fiora.........
04:59:23 <shachaf> Fiora: Wow, that's just unfair.
04:59:30 <kmc> we talk about them here
04:59:39 <shachaf> You wouldn't talk like that about other people, so why would you talk like that about yourself?
04:59:46 <Bike> Fiora, if you keep being such a jerk to Fiora I'm going to have to take drastic measures. You shouldn't be so mean to your friends.
04:59:59 <Bike> I mean, she's right there, man!
05:00:05 <shachaf> If you say that people have "dumb autistic brain"s and so on I'll classify you as a mean person.
05:00:12 * Fiora is a mean person I guess
05:00:26 <shachaf> Go sit on the group W bench.
05:00:42 <elliott> on the upside #esoteric's topic is dumb things that aren't useful
05:01:03 <Fiora> yes but other people actually know about them and can talk about them
05:01:11 <Fiora> so they're not useless at all
05:01:21 <Bike> fiora you know lots of things and you talk to us and also me about them
05:02:02 <Fiora> yeah, but nobody else can really say anything meanngful most of the time so I just kind of talk at a wall for a bit and go back to playing pokemon or something
05:02:10 <elliott> Fiora: I hate to break this to you but I think more people know about CPUs than esolangs
05:03:37 <elliott> well technically nobody talks about esolangs in #esoteric anyway. oops.
05:04:25 <Fiora> maybe a #cpus? <.< >.> I guess you're right
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05:07:21 <coppro> if you can't think of a way to do something without coming off as pretentious, then it's probably pretentious, right?
05:08:18 <Fiora> sorry for dumb angsting
05:09:23 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
05:15:38 <kmc> coppro: well do you think that "is pretentious" and "comes off as pretentious" are distinct concepts?
05:15:42 <kmc> i don't really think so
05:16:05 <kmc> an idea might be doomed to come off as pretentious thanks to the audience's attitudes, but still be a worthwhile idea
05:17:09 <kmc> there are some things that are kind of universally labeled as pretentious in popular culture
05:21:04 <Bike> confession i enjoy modern art
05:21:59 <shachaf> confession i enjoy monoids
05:22:23 <Bike> the portland art museum has this piece "Alaska" that's a bunch of TVs stacked on a car displaying a twenty second loop of the sun rising
05:23:15 <shachaf> I,I "You ASCII silly question, you get a silly ANSI." "Alaska silly question whenever I want to!"
05:23:15 <elliott> that's what alaska is like irl
05:23:22 <Bike> and another one that's a TV covered in garish paint displaying some obscure cartoon
05:23:26 <kmc> Bike: cool
05:23:33 <kmc> i have been to Alaska and it is not like that "irl"
05:23:41 <Bike> they also have a bunch of Monet and stuff but like, TVs man.
05:24:05 <elliott> in the non-temperature sense you asshole
05:24:11 <kmc> depends on what you like
05:24:13 <elliott> imo cold places with lots of snow are pretty cool
05:24:18 <elliott> but I don't know if this applies to alaska
05:24:35 <kmc> if you like mountains, bears, seasons of unusual duration then they pretty much have you covered
05:24:47 <kmc> rednecks flying small planes
05:24:59 <kmc> alarming rates of sexual assault
05:25:20 <Bike> isn't that just america in general OH BURN n.b. I don't know if amurikka's rape rate is actually higher or what
05:25:22 <shachaf> More alarming than other places?
05:25:28 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
05:25:31 <kmc> i was there in the summer so it was only a normal amount of snow
05:26:04 <shachaf> Summer? She is not a number, she is a free woman!
05:26:29 <kmc> shachaf: yeah I think it's much higher than any other state
05:26:33 <kmc> don't know why
05:26:44 <kmc> another thing about alaska: they pay you money to live there
05:26:45 <shachaf> elliott: help im addicted :'(
05:26:55 <kmc> another thing about alaska: it's next to canada and also russia?
05:27:06 <shachaf> don't be silly those are on opposite sides of the map
05:27:47 <kmc> uh shachaf if you zoom out all the way you will see that Alaska is next to the left copy of Russia
05:27:55 <kmc> although quite far from the right copy
05:28:06 <kmc> i've got to sleep now
05:28:08 <elliott> as i was typing before kmc made me laugh: i like the idea that alaska is so awful they have to pay you to live there
05:28:24 <Bike> do you get paid to live in like whitehorse or wherever
05:28:25 <kmc> i will share any additional thoughts about alaska (if any) tomorrow
05:28:30 <Bike> or do you just starve because harper suxxx
05:28:33 <elliott> I can't live without more alaska fax!
05:28:39 <elliott> here fax is short of factologies
05:29:05 <shachaf> @ask kmc for additional thoughts about alaska
05:29:19 <Bike> this book talks about Milner but not in a type way, gosh
05:29:33 <elliott> did you finish lyah and/or the report yet Bike
05:29:37 <shachaf> Bike: does it talk about harper
05:29:50 <Bike> shachaf no elliott yes like ten years ago?
05:29:56 <elliott> have you written any programs in haskell yet
05:30:08 <shachaf> Bike: the joke is harper of existentialtype.something.com
05:30:13 <elliott> so you're "Sgeo"ing haskell
05:30:17 <Bike> that's a dumb joke
05:30:26 <elliott> i wonder if harper likes harrop
05:30:29 <Bike> elliott, well, i don't write any "useful" programs anyway
05:30:43 <Bike> so i'll probably just stick to SNOBOL whenever i do, books be damned
05:30:51 <elliott> do you actually write snobol
05:31:11 <Bike> I have the manual though. It was neat.
05:31:15 <elliott> oh wait have you read the typeclassopedia
05:31:17 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia
05:32:01 <Bike> oh, the composable monads thing is like that Steele paper i read back in the pioneer days
05:32:25 <elliott> do you mean monad transformers
05:32:48 <elliott> <shachaf> @let sum'n'max x y = (x + y, max x y)
05:32:52 <elliott> shachaf is an awful person, guys
05:33:09 <Bike> yes i mean those.
05:33:36 <Bike> > sum'n'max 4 719
05:34:08 <Bike> oh! oh like the bunny
05:34:24 <Bike> also these monad transformers seem a bit «'"inelegantly"'» defined
05:34:35 <elliott> monad transformers are kinda weird but waht do you mean by that
05:35:00 <Bike> like this typeclassy thing
05:35:05 <Bike> whatever i don't want to sgeo too hard here
05:35:29 <Bike> "Is the composition of two monads always a monad? As hinted previously, the answer is no. For example, XXX insert example here."
05:35:38 <elliott> you mean the MonadState class thing or what?
05:35:46 <elliott> or just MonadTrans itself or
05:35:51 <shachaf> do something meaningful in your life
05:35:52 <Bike> Yeah the MonadState etc. class thing.
05:36:00 <Bike> The concept itself is fine and probably hella useful, I'm sure.
05:36:01 <elliott> it beats "lift $ lift $ lift $ get"
05:36:09 <elliott> but i agree, it's slightly ad-hoc
05:36:12 <Bike> imo fuck adjunctions
05:36:20 <elliott> it's just also very useful to have those auto-lifting classes
05:36:34 <elliott> and sometimes being polymorphic over monads that satisfy some of the classes can be useful
05:36:42 <Bike> btw "What is the kind of t in the declaration of MonadTrans?" the answer is (* -> *) -> * -> *, right?
05:36:58 <lambdabot> ((* -> *) -> * -> *) -> Constraint
05:37:08 <shachaf> Bike: imo s/adjunctions/you/ hth
05:37:16 <elliott> Bike: you can use :k MaybeT or such to find that out in ghci, btw
05:37:26 <shachaf> don't be dissin' adjunctions Bike
05:37:31 <Bike> hm i didn't realize constraints were kinded, that's pretty obvious really
05:37:31 <shachaf> you don't know what you're up against
05:37:39 <shachaf> They're not, in standard Haskell.
05:37:43 <elliott> they are in a new, experimental ghc extension
05:37:56 <elliott> which lets you do crazy thinsg like classes of classes
05:38:12 <shachaf> Bike: want to see something crazy
05:38:17 <Bike> standard haskell like barely mentioned kinds at all
05:38:21 <Bike> just kind inference and that was it
05:38:24 <shachaf> oh maybe you have to know about comonads first
05:38:38 <elliott> does typeclassopedia cover arrows
05:38:46 <shachaf> comonads are just comonoids in the cocategory of endofunctors
05:38:46 <Bike> here's that edward kmett guy again
05:38:56 <shachaf> (btw cocategory = category. i just said that to make it seem complicated)
05:38:59 <Bike> elliott: I'll skip that part just to satiate you.
05:39:10 <Bike> To feed you. Yes that is what I meant.
05:39:13 <elliott> Bike: did you know that edwardk used to be in #esoteric a lot??
05:39:39 <Bike> Since like. you mention him at all as a person you know
05:39:54 <shachaf> Bike: did you know edwardk is the 5th most active user on github??
05:39:59 <elliott> are you suggesting the only people I know are from #esoteric
05:40:16 <shachaf> https://gist.github.com/paulmillr/2657075
05:40:18 <elliott> none of us have ever talked to edwardk, we are just in his fanclub
05:40:39 <Bike> are you suggesting the only people I know are from #esoteric <-- well. yes?
05:40:46 <elliott> Bike: well that's only like half true!
05:41:12 <shachaf> hey Bike do you like kripke structures
05:41:36 <Bike> so let's go with yes
05:41:52 <Bike> wait fuck he's still alive
05:41:59 <elliott> do you only like dead people
05:42:09 <Bike> no i just, i thought he was dead
05:42:10 <elliott> me too Bike. me too. i like you Bike. :-)
05:42:14 <Bike> who ever heard of a living philosopher
05:42:32 <shachaf> Bike: do you like de bruijn thingy
05:42:34 <Bike> a wolf actually started howling right when you said that
05:42:41 <Bike> shachaf: which thingy (probably yes either way)
05:42:45 <shachaf> the joke is the answer is yes no matter what thingy is
05:42:49 <shachaf> because de bruijn was the best
05:43:13 <Bike> "Note: MonadFix is included here for completeness (and because it is interesting) but seems not to be used much. "
05:43:46 <shachaf> The only way I know of to understand MonadFix is to read the PhD thesis that introduced it.
05:43:53 <shachaf> Fortunately it's a very readable thesis.
05:44:07 <Bike> wow hm this is not really what scope means whatever
05:44:31 <Bike> " One of the motivating examples given in the original paper describing MonadFix (see below) is encoding circuit descriptions." good to read huh
05:44:57 <shachaf> the joke is novel contribution to something or other
05:46:17 <Bike> "Why is this OK? Isn't fromJust almost as bad as unsafePerformIO? Well, usually, yes. "
05:46:42 <Bike> nothing just being anal
05:47:21 <Bike> "The interesting thing to note is that maybeFix will never crash -- although it may, of course, fail to terminate."
05:47:38 <shachaf> whats that supposed to mean....................
05:48:07 <Bike> "It almost seems, spookily, that mfix is sending a value back in time to itself through the IORef"
05:48:07 <shachaf> crash, n.: fail to terminate (n. stands fro definition.)
05:48:24 <elliott> i already made the n. stands for definition joke shachaf
05:48:25 <Bike> In this case it probably means doing fromJust Nothing
05:48:30 <shachaf> elliott: ???????????????????
05:48:38 <shachaf> im pretty sure i just invented it
05:48:41 <Bike> which is "impossible" or whatever i dunno
05:49:18 <shachaf> Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens.
05:49:31 <Bike> fiora help somebody help
05:49:52 <elliott> counterpoint: shachaf is wrong
05:50:06 <shachaf> Bike: A lens is a getter-setter pair.
05:50:15 <shachaf> Let's say a Foo contains a Bar and a Bar contains a Vaz
05:50:44 <shachaf> If you have a Lens Foo Bar and a Lens Bar Vaz you can construct a Lens Foo Vaz
05:51:00 <shachaf> And you can use it to get and set the Vaz inside the Foo.
05:51:42 <shachaf> > view (_1 . _2) (("hello",5),True) -- getter
05:51:52 <shachaf> > set (_1 . _2) 100 (("hello",5),True) -- setter
05:52:07 <shachaf> _1 is the lens for the first element of a tuple.
05:52:12 <shachaf> _2 is the lens for the second element of a tuple.
05:52:27 <Bike> needs a catchier name
05:53:04 <shachaf> It's called a lens because it "focuses" on some part of a value.
05:53:21 <shachaf> Bike: Wait, did you mean that you don't want to learn about lenses?
05:53:25 <shachaf> I thought that was a joke.
05:53:34 <Bike> no it meant... i don't know what it meantn.
05:53:41 <Bike> this sounds kind of like the "zippers" in lyah.
05:54:21 <shachaf> Lens s a = (s -> a, s -> a -> s)
05:54:31 <shachaf> s is the outer type, a is the inner type.
05:54:35 <shachaf> That's a getter-setter pair.
05:54:48 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
05:54:54 <shachaf> You can write compose :: Lens s a -> Lens a x -> Lens s x
05:54:59 <shachaf> (Exercise: Write compose.)
05:55:07 <shachaf> There are also other representations of lenses that let you do a lot of things.
05:56:15 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:59:51 <shachaf> Bike: elliott thinks profunctors are too hard for you.
06:00:04 <shachaf> Are you going to take this sitting down?!
06:00:10 <Bike> Well, it's true, I don't see how to compose the setters.
06:00:23 <Bike> Are you talking about me elsewhere or are you just the same person dressed as two people?
06:00:42 <elliott> we're two people dressed as the same person
06:00:50 <shachaf> Bike: Well, you'll have to use the getter too.
06:00:52 <Bike> You guys are pretty short.
06:00:58 <Bike> Oh. Wow I forgot you could do that.
06:01:16 <Fiora> #bike is an actual channel?
06:01:34 <Bike> imo everyone here but me should join #bike while i think about this stupid problem
06:01:42 <shachaf> There are bike channels on Freenode.
06:01:53 <shachaf> I wonder if I should mention it?
06:01:58 <shachaf> There are also train channels.
06:02:17 <shachaf> I think that's OK to mention.
06:02:19 <shachaf> If you like trains you should join #cslounge-trains
06:03:41 <elliott> Bike: wow, shachaf was really mean to you!
06:03:58 <shachaf> elliott: you didn't see the thing I did before you joined.
06:04:03 <Bike> You all are bad at being in #bike.
06:04:04 <shachaf> /t Bike? more like Bestpersoneverike
06:04:05 <Bike> Just so you know.
06:04:08 <shachaf> 23:02 -!- #bike You're not a channel operator
06:04:30 <Bike> Except Fiora. She's got this shit down.
06:04:38 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
06:04:46 <Fiora> bike you should join #bike
06:04:53 <shachaf> Fiora is too busy being in #fiora
06:05:49 <shachaf> Bike: btw it helps if you use "polymorphic lenses"
06:05:54 <elliott> guys help this is too many irssi windows.
06:06:18 <Bike> s -> a -> s, a -> x -> a, get s -> x -> s. So it's just... \s x -> set2 (get1 s) x, to write it in the horriblest way possible probably
06:07:05 <shachaf> elliott: don't give Bike the pointfree bug
06:07:13 <Bike> There's still a point right there.
06:07:22 <Bike> Is there an #orange?
06:07:56 <shachaf> I,I We'll surely avoid scurvy if we all eat an orange.
06:08:15 <Bike> Is that a monkey island quote
06:08:24 <Bike> and what the FUCK is I,I
06:08:27 <Bike> stop that shit.
06:08:43 <elliott> i literally heard that in guybrush's voice jesus
06:09:25 <Bike> Oh, and the first part of compose is just . obviously
06:09:40 <shachaf> So that's what lenses are.
06:09:52 <shachaf> They let you do updates of things nested deep inside other things easily.
06:09:53 <elliott> shachaf: hmm, if you do (s, a) -> s or (a, s) -> s does the composition of the setter look more symmterical/uniform?
06:09:59 <shachaf> In a purely-functional way.
06:10:20 <shachaf> I mean, you still have to use the getter and the setter.
06:41:28 <shachaf> Bike: Want more lens puzzles?
06:42:00 <shachaf> You can make it "better" by adding more types.
06:42:08 <shachaf> type Lens s t a b = (s -> a, s -> b -> t)
06:42:21 <shachaf> This is better because now you can change the type of the inner field and it still works.
06:42:35 <shachaf> For example: Lens (e,a) (e,b) a b
06:42:53 <shachaf> This wouldn't work with the Lens s a version.
06:43:12 <Bike> But now you'll need to have lenses starting with b and t if you want to keep lensing, don't you?
06:43:17 <shachaf> Also it makes it easier to write code because the type system catches your mistakes.
06:43:32 <shachaf> compose :: Lens s t a b -> Lens a b x y -> Lens s t x y
06:43:36 <Bike> lens batman_the_animated_series
06:44:00 <shachaf> Bike: You're missing all the good anecdotes in #fiora by the way.
06:44:13 <shachaf> I've told several anecdotes.
06:44:31 <Bike> I guess I can join #fiora.
06:49:31 <elliott> Bike: you made an awful mistake
06:49:47 <Bike> Was the mistake joining #esoteric?
06:50:08 <Bike> I bet the mistake was reading this book by Aczel.
07:00:39 <shachaf> Fiora: You should talk about false sharing!
07:00:50 <shachaf> "best thing ever false sharing imo"
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07:56:53 <lambdabot> Halite: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
08:04:02 <Halite> The reason I'm not wildly making up epic syntax is because it's hard to code it
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09:02:46 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
09:04:34 <Sgeo> list is a backup in case slist isn't working
09:04:51 <Taneb> I thought ^list was the canonical one
09:05:00 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
09:05:20 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
09:05:23 <Fiora> it's two different bots, I think?
09:07:57 <ThatOtherPerson> There's some bug in my Underhanded C contest code that is changing Taneb's number of BFFs to 0
09:08:24 <Halite> I'm making a programming language. Wish me luck.
09:10:34 <Taneb> Because I try to have to many
09:11:31 <ThatOtherPerson> Really naming one of my test variables "Taneb" is worth it for that reason
09:14:58 -!- monqy has joined.
09:20:48 <Fiora> can I have friends
09:22:25 <ThatOtherPerson> I was just going to use Fiora as a test case for someone who didn't have friends, at first
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09:24:40 <ThatOtherPerson> user ThatOtherPerson = user_init(1337, "David Beckley", "ThatOtherPerson");
09:24:40 <ThatOtherPerson> user Taneb = user_init(1234, "Nathan van Doorn", "Taneb");
09:25:00 <monqy> ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
09:25:01 <shachaf> gasp Fiora's name is leaked!
09:25:25 <shachaf> did you hear my anecdotes from before
09:25:36 <Fiora> wow. the system they describe for this years contest is actually kind of cool
09:25:49 <Fiora> minus the total silliness like credit card statements XD
09:26:15 <Fiora> hmmm. I should try this contest, it sounds fun :3
09:26:26 <shachaf> monqy: ask elliott for details
09:26:38 <shachaf> by details i mean whether they were good
09:27:09 <Fiora> and yes my name is totally Someone Random
09:32:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Why did you leave #haskell?
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09:59:48 <Halite> is stacks an original programming language idea
10:00:53 <Taneb> If I could tell you, it wouldn't be original
10:01:08 <Halite> my imagination is poop
10:05:16 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas here, hope that helps
10:06:30 <ThatOtherPerson> I really want to do the metametaprogramming one, but I'm not completely sure what that even means
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10:14:57 <Halite> I should make the queue number-only.
10:16:21 <Sgeo> I've wanted to play nomic sometime in 2003-2005, and I finally got in 2008. I wanted to go in Second Life in 2004, and I finally got in in 2006. I wanted to go in Planetside in 2006, and I finally got in... I still haven't gotten in
10:16:36 <Sgeo> That's a rather long time span
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10:19:20 <Taneb> There should be an esoteric nomic
10:19:52 <FireFly> I thought nomic *was* esoteric nomic
10:20:02 <FireFly> unless you mean an #esoteric nomic
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10:50:09 <fizzie> Whoa, my sshfs command line tab-completed the remote path.
10:50:12 <fizzie> What year is it, again?
10:58:26 <Halite> I just cannot make a new idea for my programming language
10:58:32 <FireFly> Better start beating the french then
10:58:52 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War
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10:59:05 <FireFly> it's supposed to start now
10:59:21 <FireFly> Anyway, you could always implement an existing esolang instead
11:02:56 <ThatOtherPerson> At least according to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Feather, the Feather spec is even more ambiguous than the DCPU spec
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13:17:23 <Taneb> The future's gonna be great
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13:24:26 <Taneb> Who would be in for an #esoteric Nomic
13:27:05 <elliott> you dont want to go back down that road
13:27:19 <elliott> (several #esoteric people play agora however)
13:27:38 <elliott> (or I guess "#esoteric is half the active agoran playerbase" is more accurate)
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13:41:45 <Koen_> Taneb: try something with a self-modifying esolang
13:42:33 <Koen_> well or something like Emmental or Mascarpone
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13:55:32 <Koen_> Taneb: so I hear they call you doctor van doom these days
13:55:57 <Taneb> Mainly oerjan and elliott
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13:57:58 <Taneb> Who's that comedian
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14:11:36 <Taneb> 6 months ago I would have agreed with you.
14:11:50 <Taneb> Now I just view it as overkill when CSS would do
14:13:36 <Taneb> Okay, it's good for ajax
14:15:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: Try better next time. Level 7 status revoked. | H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:15:58 -!- Gregor has set topic: Try harder next time. Level 7 status revoked. | H4sIADG1WFEAAzMxVDA3UDA3UjCzVDBLVjAyUDAxUzBLAyMg1xAAAdFVNCAAAAA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:16:55 <boily> uhm, what's that level 7 thingy?
14:17:10 <FireFly> The thing after the level 6 thingy
14:17:21 <boily> you vile mathematician answerer.
14:17:33 <Taneb> boily, it's been revoked.
14:17:37 <fizzie> We probably spend more time explaining this to regular people than people confusing it to the official freenode thing stay confused.
14:17:38 <Taneb> Now you'll never know
14:18:14 <boily> now I know I should be confused by the issue, and that's something I'm good with at.
14:18:18 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Try harder next time. Level 7 status revoked. | XQAAgAD//////////wAgnApGq03V4cQiqbdWT15vZ1CW/rSxi4DGHmNGLlT9jrx///b94AA= | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
14:19:48 <Taneb> boily, do you play dwarf fortress
14:24:49 <elliott> Taneb: imo Taneb -> me -> Phantom_Hoover -> monqy succession fort
14:25:05 <Taneb> That means I start
14:25:11 <elliott> feel free to swap you and ph!!
14:25:50 <boily> I think everything suddenly became clearer, except it concerns DF, so maybe not.
14:29:02 <elliott> boily can be added to that list iff he admits France isn't real.
14:29:39 <boily> no problem about France. last time I went there it was in 2003, and for all I know it's a figment of my coffee-deprived imagination.
14:30:25 <fizzie> Back in the BBS days, I thought I should get me some of that VGA Planets goodness, those people were swapping .TRNs like no tomorrow. (Then I did nothing.)
14:30:48 <elliott> boily: note: quebec is part of france.
14:31:23 <boily> elliott: st-pierre et miquelon are the last two remaining french territories near here (fsvo near).
14:31:38 <boily> Québec is part of Canada, or not, depending on how you feel today and perhaps moon phases.
14:31:41 <elliott> you're saying a bunch of nonsense. characteristic of a french person.
14:31:48 <elliott> no, canada is american, not french
14:33:02 <fizzie> Huh, there still is a VGA Planets 5 under development, and it's now a realtime multiplayer online thing.
14:33:21 <Taneb> We can cope without flux stone, right?
14:33:49 <fizzie> "VGA Planets 5 StarCube (under development) is a new version of VGA Planets which is played as a real time multiplayer online game --" StarCube === TimeCube?
14:34:47 <boily> elliott: by the way, there's this small text file I forgot I had, and it reminded me that I don't have your coordinates and your body mass yet.
14:34:53 <Gregor> “which is played as a real time multiplayer online game” // it's played AS a multiplayer online game. It's not actually online, it just doesn't let you pause and calls you a fag every 10 minutes.
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14:39:00 <elliott> boily: 72⅛ and 3, respectively.
14:43:30 <boily> oh well. I'll go with that, and extrapolate more precise infos thereafter...
14:45:32 <boily> (and or use coercive manœuvres to extract these precious tidbits from you)
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15:10:18 <Taneb> It's time to have blood removed from my veins if I am deemed worthy
15:10:26 <Taneb> elliott, stay away from the Mart.
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15:20:23 <monqy> elliott: imo go to the Mart
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15:44:44 <Taneb> Apparently you need an appointment to have blood removed from your veins if you're deemed worthy
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15:53:51 <Taneb> elliott, pig tails or cave wheat
15:54:47 <Taneb> Which should be the autumn harverst
15:56:57 <Taneb> I'm leaning to pig tails
15:57:34 <Koen_> Freaks Phone Number Out At
15:57:46 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/JCZA Well, that was remarkably stupid.
15:57:47 <Koen_> those have gotta be five instructions from an esolang
15:58:58 <Taneb> The number freaks are out: phone.
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16:12:21 <Taneb> What shall we call the fortress
16:12:33 <Gregor> fizzie: mesg is hardcore hacking.
16:12:50 <fizzie> Gregor: Is very clever, yes.
16:17:53 <fizzie> I got tired at 19. Somehow, as far as dots go, it was not as entertaining as DOT ACTION.
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16:18:29 <oklofok> it's pretty boring up to 20
16:18:39 <oklofok> then again it takes about 10 seconds to get there
16:18:50 <Taneb> elliott, suggest a name for the fortress or it gets called "Homestuck"
16:19:21 <elliott> Taneb: i think monqy might suffer a lot playing a fortress called homestuck and im too sleep deprived to come up with a name that isnt terrible
16:19:25 <elliott> so whati m saying is go for it
16:20:05 <Taneb> IT IS TIME TO EMBARK
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16:21:43 <elliott> Taneb: i hope this fortress is really stupid in a least one way
16:21:49 <elliott> like in terms of the embark
16:21:59 <elliott> also I'm still going to dig to hell
16:22:02 <Bike> well it's df aren't they going to all die horribly either way
16:22:03 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:22:24 <elliott> you just don't understand Bike. i only care about the exquisite deaths
16:22:24 <Taneb> elliott, I'll hide the pickaxe
16:22:34 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/7ec8d47c6a8ce5feb39a86a1ee08fdcb/tumblr_mhw700Z83g1s0s0n5o1_500.jpg
16:24:02 <Taneb> elliott, good news!
16:24:26 <elliott> if it's good news i'm not interested
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16:26:50 <Koen_> that was the second most boring thing I did today
16:27:05 <oklofok> how do people not like to count dots
16:27:45 <Koen_> there was some suspense when one of the dots thied to hide behind a dead pixel though
16:31:44 <fizzie> I counted in groups of five.
16:32:14 <oklofok> so no one agrees it's fun? :(
16:32:31 <oklofok> maybe i'm a martian or something
16:32:48 <tromp_> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is almost isomorphic to Binary Lambda Calculus
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16:33:35 <tromp_> with LAMBDA <-> 00, APPLY <-> 01, ZERO <-> 10, ONE MORE THAN<->1
16:34:19 <Taneb> tromp_, I think that's because both are lambda calculus with peano numerals
16:35:08 <Taneb> And de Bruijn indicies
16:35:35 <tromp_> only real difference is character encoding
16:35:47 <tromp_> Church numerals vs bit lists
16:35:59 <Taneb> Are you the John Tromp names on the Wikipedia page for BLC?
16:37:15 <tromp_> why'd you name it after a sucky movie:-?
16:38:20 <Taneb> It was named after a spam page
16:38:53 <Taneb> Advertising a "Real fast download" for Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster
16:39:29 <Taneb> (which I have not seen)
16:40:14 <Taneb> And I have no intention of seeing it, either
16:40:18 <tromp_> i fear watching it is an even bigger waste of time than downloading it:(
16:40:38 <Gregor> For some reason I was under the impression that it was a game.
16:41:53 <oklofok> Koen_: what was the most boring thing?
16:42:22 <Koen_> uh well there's this very rich guy who just announced he had created his own computer science school
16:42:39 <Koen_> and hmm the admission tests are online
16:42:44 <Koen_> I passed the first today
16:42:56 <Koen_> aaaaaaand that was one hour of solving tangram puzzles
16:43:59 <oklofok> you don't like tangram puzzles?
16:44:11 <oklofok> sorry let me rephrase that
16:44:17 <oklofok> my game is better than tangram puzzles?
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16:48:22 * oklofok is making an even better game
16:49:04 <Taneb> countation 2: the revenge of the dots
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17:18:50 <Koen_> any idea what xkcd's hash thing is?
17:19:03 <Koen_> oklofok: weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell yes
17:19:43 <Koen_> but that's probably mainly because I had the liberty to stop at any point
17:20:05 <Koen_> whereas for every tangram puzzle I was desperately hoping it was the last
17:20:19 <Koen_> and always wrong (except for the last)
17:20:56 <tromp_> Taneb: there seems to be a problem with your Nora implementation
17:21:22 <tromp_> when i port the blc prime number sieve to it, it hangs
17:22:19 <tromp_> leaving out the sieving step it produces the expected "0011111111..." though
17:22:41 <fizzie> Koen_: As far as I know, it's just a hash thing. As in, you try to find input that's as close as possible to the specified hash.
17:23:15 <Koen_> so basically you bruteforce it?
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17:23:31 <fizzie> Unless you happen to have a better-than-bruteforce preimage attack on Skein.
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17:24:17 <fizzie> (The best.csv rankings are Hamming distances i.e. number of wrong bits.)
17:24:22 <Taneb> tromp_, I think it was oerjan who wrote
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17:25:06 <fizzie> Given what the list looks like, I guess it only accepts .ac.uk and .edu domains?
17:25:26 <tromp_> ok; tell him when you see him:)
17:25:32 <fizzie> (So can't participate.)
17:25:41 <tromp_> i can debug it when i have more spare time
17:26:22 <fizzie> He usually logreads, so perhaps no particular need to tell (or @tell).
17:27:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: It says "School not found" on attempting to add aalto.fi so it's possible that it just has a whitelist of complete domains
17:28:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, well, sure, but a whitelist of just .ac.uk and .edu names.
17:28:59 <Koen_> it doesn't reject u-psud.fr
17:28:59 <fizzie> Oh, there's a few .edu.au's in there too.
17:30:09 <fizzie> (I didn't notice because I grep -v'd ".edu" in general.)
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17:30:56 <fizzie> Koen_: That's funny, since there's really no .fr's in best.csv, and I would think it's a complete list since the last entries go up to 506 wrong bits.
17:31:35 <fizzie> Koen_: It will say "School not found" only after you give it some data, FWIW.
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18:16:39 <oklofok> http://rnd.fi/findit/ next game
18:22:01 <boily> uh... what is it??????
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18:26:41 <atriq> oklofok, how bad's bad?
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18:27:20 <kmc> i was hoping the target hash value was a 32 x 32 monochrome image
18:27:20 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:27:25 <kmc> but it doesn't seem to me anything recognizable
18:27:48 <kmc> oh another thing: in alaska they have power outlets at every parking space so that you can plug in an electric heater for your engine block
18:27:52 <kmc> otherwise it freezes
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18:28:16 <oklofok> i think the version online was impossible to fail.
18:28:58 <oklofok> atriq: i didn't really try it yet, but based on other players it's way too easy atm
18:29:23 <oklofok> have to do other stuff now
18:29:38 <oklofok> you're all welcome for the games
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18:41:15 <atriq> Hi, ais523 and ThatOtherPerson
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18:47:45 <atriq> Can't be bothered to go upstairs to turn my computer off
18:47:50 <atriq> So I'm down here on my laptop
18:48:36 <kmc> mosh + irssi in the cloud
18:48:38 <kmc> it's the only way to fly
18:48:59 <zzo38> I would like to see an implementation of Checkout in Verilog (even a partial one), if such a thing might exist.
18:49:02 <atriq> ThatOtherPerson, it's set to reconnect automatically
18:49:22 <atriq> The easiest thing to do would be to ssh in and kill the process
18:49:26 <atriq> But there's not much point
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18:54:37 <zzo38> ais523: If you know VHDL, maybe you would know how difficult it might be to fix the Storm core to do certain things differently and what would be the advantages/disadvantages of doing so.
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18:54:59 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know what the Storm core is, nor am I particularly interested in it
18:55:26 <zzo38> It is a ARMv2 clone (so is Amber), but Storm is in VHDL rather than Verilog and is not specific to Xilinx devices
18:56:06 <zzo38> The title says ARM7 but the documentation says ARMv2 (ARM7 is ARMv3)
18:57:01 <atriq> ThatOtherPerson, how's the underhanded C coming along?
18:57:33 <ais523> ooh, is the UCC up again?
18:58:20 -!- Bike has joined.
18:58:50 <atriq> But it had a new callenge
18:59:56 <ThatOtherPerson> ais523: Basically, some sort of Facebook like thing, where access privileges are dependant on the number of connections between you and the page that you are viewing
19:02:02 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm BFFs with my art teacher, Mr. Gomez; he's BFFs with Lisa Brennan-Jobs; she's BFFs with Steve Jobs; which means I am at DERPCON 3 with Steve Jobs
19:02:04 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
19:02:58 <atriq> And DERPCON 5 with Tony Blair
19:04:30 <ThatOtherPerson> But the goal is to make the DERPCON function return a low DERPCON level whenever your account is one of the ones being compared
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19:08:05 <atriq> > fix (\k l -> case l of [] -> 0; (x:xs) -> x + k xs) [1..10]
19:11:52 <zzo38> How fast will a programmable clock divider be in FPGA?
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19:14:36 <zzo38> always@(posedge Clock) if(|Count) Count<=Count-1; else fork Count<=Period; Out<=~Out; join Probably something like this, I guess (or is there a better way?)
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19:35:42 <atriq> Hey, if the halting problem were solved, it'd be easy to solve things like the collatz conjecture, right?
19:36:39 <Gregor> The halting problem is not a quandary to be solved. It is not P=?NP.
19:36:49 <oerjan> atriq: assuming you could solve it for programs using the method.
19:36:49 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:36:55 <Gregor> However, if the halting problem were SOLVABLE, lots of things would be... different.
19:36:58 <lambdabot> Halite said 11h 27m 7s ago: 1) That's true, sadly. But if your imagination touches the wildly syntaxed, you can get interesting syntax. 2) What a good fact. I shouldn't be reading the books kmc told
19:36:59 <lambdabot> me to read online, to create a genuinely new idea.
19:37:02 <tromp_> collatz is not finitely refutable
19:37:16 <tromp_> but goldbach and RH are...
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19:37:33 <Bike> You could just write a program to test the collatz chains of increasing integers and see if it halts, couldn't you
19:37:56 <tromp_> i told Taneb his Nora implementation appears to be buggy
19:38:08 <Bike> oerjan: what was your #2 again, i just want to confirm that halite said something dumb out of his own volition rather than yours
19:38:34 <tromp_> you have no upper bound on chain length
19:39:22 <oerjan> atriq: you would need to use the halting solution to check each number, and then use the halting solution on the infinite loop of programs constructed that way. but if you could do that, you could solve collatz.
19:39:50 <oerjan> Bike: i am going to have to check
19:40:22 <oerjan> `pastelogs <oerjan> @tell halite
19:41:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.359
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19:43:05 <oerjan> Bike: well he seems to miss the part that my (1) implies he _should_ read books.
19:43:34 <Bike> oh "interesting syntax"
19:44:21 <atriq> I don't aim for originality.
19:44:31 <atriq> Luigi is really unoriginal, as is MIBBLLII
19:45:02 <atriq> And Real Fast Nora's Heair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is Binary lambda calculus mixed with BIT
19:45:33 <oerjan> @tell halite I was implying that syntax is rarely very interesting, even if weird. And if you want to actually get interesting syntax you are going to need to read books about parsing theory.
19:46:06 <atriq> Interesting syntax: mixed prefix/postfix/infix?
19:46:23 <kmc> re Halite: wat
19:46:44 <oerjan> @tell halite Syntax can add flavor to a language, but it will not be truly interesting without another fundamental idea.
19:47:13 <oerjan> atriq: not sufficiently advanced parsing theory, sorry
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19:47:38 <atriq> Perhaps one day I should read up on parsing theory
19:48:52 <zzo38> I do think many things can be made as a halting problem, such as Fermat's Last Theorem, and possibly a large number of other things can be made as a program which you figure out if it halts or not. It can also be done that a proof of some theorem is also allow you to know that it halts or it doesn't halts. Even things like 2+2=4 like while(2+2!=4); It halts because 2+2=4
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19:49:51 <kmc> i wanna be smart and interesting but i don't want to read any books or listen to what anyone else has to say waaah waaah
19:50:07 <kmc> kids these days, get off my lawn, &c.
19:50:18 <oerjan> tromp_: wait what do you mean by chain length, i though i was checking for exceeded depth in the interpreter during parsing...
19:51:07 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not 100% sure; I think if the syntax is sufficiently complex, you might be able to get away with just concat and eval for making a language TC
19:51:15 <ais523> via concat completely changing the meaning of the rest of the code
19:51:23 <ais523> obviously, complex syntax without eval is pointless
19:51:35 <tromp_> oerjan, that was a comment about collatz problem
19:51:46 <Bike> kmc: "Nothing is more usual and more natural for those, who pretend to discover anything new to the world in philosophy and the sciences, than to insinuate the praises of their own systems, by decrying all those, which have been advanced before them." here now you have an old quote to pretentiously quote at people
19:52:11 <kmc> thanks Bike
19:52:24 <kmc> i guess this is not a new phenomenon
19:52:32 <kmc> it's also one of the canonical signs of a crackpot
19:52:51 <tromp_> oerjan: the nora implentation failed on a port of the BLC prime number sieve
19:53:08 <Fiora> kmc: speaking of books, apparently hard copies of the gigantic mega intel manuals exist
19:53:12 <Fiora> http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/IntelSDM
19:53:20 <Fiora> Intel sells them through a print on demand service XD
19:53:51 * boily hits shachaf with a properly dulled cast iron bludgeon with a quarter-inch polystyrene padding
19:54:54 <shachaf> oerjan: Maybe you should swat someone sometime.
19:55:12 <shachaf> It's been decades (practically).
19:55:58 <oerjan> ais523: ok obviously it is _possible_ to make interesting syntax.
19:56:49 <ais523> but yes, mostly it's for flavour
19:56:57 <kmc> Fiora: I heard you used to be able to order them for free
19:57:05 <kmc> i know people who aren't even that old & crufty who got copies this way
19:57:19 <ais523> say, Forte would still work even if it didn't look like BASIC
19:57:31 <Fiora> I'd worry about export restrictions. given their size they must classify as weapons :p
19:57:33 <ais523> but having it look like something familiar makes it easier to grasp how it works
19:57:41 <kmc> free books are useful, you can use them as food for mushrooms
19:58:21 <shachaf> i heard you used to be able to order monoids for free
19:58:23 <kmc> converting digikey catalogs into food
19:58:29 <shachaf> but it's a scam -- they're actually free commutative monoids
19:58:31 <kmc> this will be the new survival skill in the postapocalyptic future
19:58:41 <kmc> except you need like a pressure cooker and good sterile technique and stuff
19:59:00 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
19:59:02 <kmc> kmushroomd
19:59:10 <zzo38> Is a free commutative monoid like a multiset?
19:59:25 <kmc> sounds like one
19:59:42 <kmc> and a free monoid is just a list / string
20:00:07 <kmc> Haskell should rename [] to FreeMonoid to emphasize the language's rich mathematical underpinnings
20:00:15 <kmc> plus, who doesn't like free things
20:00:17 <Fiora> sort of related: vpshufb dst, src, mask vpshufd dst, src, mask vpermq dst, src, mask vpermd dst, mask, src I don't think Intel believes in consistency
20:00:23 <shachaf> Sadly Haskell is bad at free commutative monoids.
20:00:37 <kmc> do I even want to know if the difference is reflected in AT&T syntax
20:00:49 <Fiora> (I can see the logic: it lets you do vpermd dst, mask, [src], so you can load-shuffle, but....)
20:01:00 <shachaf> However you can use this representation: newtype Bag a = Bag { runBag :: forall r. CommutativeMonoid r => (a -> r) -> r }
20:01:01 <Fiora> (since only the rightmost can be a memory operand)
20:01:09 <Fiora> but gosh. the /inconsistency/ gets me
20:01:16 <kmc> is a free commutative monoid a quotient of a free monoid by a permutation group?
20:01:30 <kmc> is this a meaningful thing to say
20:01:39 <Fiora> I spent like 30 minutes trying to figure out why my avx2 code wasn't wrking when I first encountered vpermd
20:01:45 <Fiora> and then I finally looked up the definition
20:01:48 <Fiora> and I was like whaaaaaaattttt
20:02:08 <kmc> i want to see a graph of the number of pages in the Intel manual over time
20:02:21 <kmc> oh Fiora have you done anything with the VMX virtualization instructions?
20:03:03 <Fiora> nope, I've never written code for a VM or something like that, I have only the foggiest idea of how they work
20:03:06 <Fiora> they seem really complicated
20:03:39 <zzo38> kmc: It could be renamed to FreeMonoid, although List is shorter. But I do think that [] ought to be a macro which is an alias for that type and that value.
20:03:41 <kmc> one neat / strange thing about them is that they provide a hardware-defined way to write pretty much all of the ISA-level processor state out to memory
20:03:48 <kmc> because that's how you context switch between VMs
20:04:00 <Fiora> ooh. so like, more than xsave+friends?
20:04:04 <kmc> it includes some things that normally aren't directly accessible, like the segment descriptors that have been loaded by segment selectors
20:04:09 <kmc> yeah I think so
20:04:26 <oerjan> kmc: when your algebra isn't a group you take quotients by congruences instead of kernels.
20:04:30 <Fiora> I can't find them in the regular instructino reference... >_<
20:04:34 <shachaf> Fiora: why can't i get intel_combined_manual.pdf as one book :'(
20:04:53 <Fiora> shachaf: I think it might collapse into a black hole in trasit
20:05:06 <Fiora> oh. 3A-3C not 2A-2C...
20:05:18 <shachaf> And they're not even huge pages.
20:05:37 <kmc> the super high level overview of VMX is, you point the CPU at such a structure, you invoke the VMENTER instruction, then it runs using that state, and eventually returns and you can inspect the state and see what happened
20:05:53 <kmc> there are various conditions that will cause it to exit virtualization, analogous to traps
20:06:26 <kmc> I don't know much about the details though, just skimmed some of the manual when trying to fix a Ksplice bug
20:07:00 <atriq> Fiora, that's significantly less than Homestuck
20:07:01 <Fiora> "A logical processor usesvirtual-machine control data structures(VMCSs) while it is in VMX operation. "
20:07:43 <Fiora> oh wow, the structure is impleemntation-specific XD
20:07:57 <kmc> one of these days I should modify my copy of JOS (the 6.828 toy OS) to support harware virtualization
20:08:00 <kmc> that sounds like a fun project
20:08:09 <kmc> oh Fiora have you seen http://www.returninfinity.com/pure64.html
20:08:49 <olsner> virtualization is sort of boringly close to normal multi-tasking and protection
20:09:05 <kmc> another silly thing I want to make is a 64-bit multitasking OS that fits in a DOS MBR boot sector
20:09:14 <kmc> olsner: yes but a lot more complicated and therefore more secure (????????)
20:09:15 <olsner> (in principle, that is... of course they use completely different mechanisms for hysterical raisins)
20:10:13 <Fiora> " 3) VMFUNC is an operation provided by the processor that can be invoked from VMX non-root operation without a VM exit." oooh
20:10:58 <kmc> is that for hypercalls?
20:11:07 <kmc> (back in ~1h, gotta do an interview)
20:11:17 <Fiora> I'm guessing? or maybe like instructions that'd require host emulation
20:11:54 <olsner> hmm, the bochs code that emulates vmfunc makes it look pretty limited
20:12:01 <zzo38> MBR code is not really specific to DOS; it is a function of a PC, isn't it? And the MBR code is very small so a 64-bit multitasking OS probably won't fit, although there are many things that might fit. One thing I want to make in there, but possibly adding another sector, is a subset of the DOS functions and one COM program is then added on to make a bootable disk image (not all COM programs will run, of course)
20:12:36 <zzo38> I think Esoteric Verilog needs a "quwire" command, although I am not entirely sure how it would work.
20:12:58 <zzo38> Mostly because I don't know much about quantum computer hardware.
20:14:17 <shachaf> hi GOMADWarrior, please do not troll #haskell
20:14:27 <olsner> (http://code.metager.de/source/xref/bochs/bochs/cpu/vmfunc.cc)
20:16:48 <olsner> hmm, otoh, EPTP switching sounds like it's a replacement for setting cr3 which probably requires a "help, privileged instruction" vmexit
20:19:04 <zzo38> Oops they are removing the Nostalgia skin from Wikipedia
20:23:23 <shachaf> I restored all the old quotes.
20:23:33 <lambdabot> oerjan says: @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) "
20:23:40 <shachaf> @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) "
20:23:41 <olsner> what happened to the quotes?
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20:23:42 <lambdabot> @. read run (\s -> s ++ show s) "@. read run (\\s -> s ++ show s) "
20:23:49 <lambdabot> kmc says: Rule number 1 of Haskell talks: use Comic Sans MS.
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20:24:47 <lambdabot> Taneb says: lens has got to be the only library with more contributors than people who know how it works
20:25:14 <lambdabot> atriq says: My son looks a bit like me, he can put away the plates after dinner now thanks to edwardk!
20:25:33 <atriq> I think that's something to do with lens
20:26:39 <olsner> you son? do you have children?
20:27:18 <ais523> btw, new Enigma version released
20:27:39 <ais523> they announced it yesterday in the hope that nobody would believe it, but I checked the repo and there was a bunch of activity
20:28:08 <shachaf> We'll have to figure it out without Turing, I guess.
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20:30:54 <olsner> in all the years of #haskell no-one's made fun of the welsh yet?
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20:34:59 <HackEgo> 816) <Gregor> !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie <EgoBot> Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr <olsner> oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words \ 939) <olsner> as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just lik
20:35:15 <HackEgo> 939) <olsner> as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just like welsh ll" or "that's just like klingon tlh"
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21:01:55 <HackEgo> 76) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 136) <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue. \ 210) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spi
21:02:24 <kmc> zzo38: you're right, it's part of the IBM PC platform. i guess I said "DOS MBR" because that's the colloquial name used for the partition table format in e.g. Linux kernel, even though clearly the BIOS needs to know this format as well
21:03:26 <olsner> doesn't the bios just load the first sector of the drive to a well-known location and jump to it? I don't think it has to mess with the partition table at all
21:03:52 <olsner> (presumably the MBR has the stuff for finding a bootable partition and chainloading and whatnot)
21:05:21 <kmc> well I think the format is actually: 446 bytes of ia16 machine code; partition table; magic string 0x55 0xAA
21:05:33 <kmc> and the BIOS will look for the latter even if it doesn't care about the partition table
21:06:29 <kmc> (well the first part doesn't have to be all machine code, just the first instruction :)
21:07:19 <shachaf> you should make a polyglot mbr
21:07:27 <kmc> how does that work
21:07:53 <shachaf> how do mbr-ish things on systems other than IBM-PC-DOS-compatible-etc. work
21:07:55 <Fiora> I wonder if it's even possible to make a combination polyglot arm/x86 program
21:07:58 <Fiora> or something similar
21:08:04 <kmc> Fiora: I think I've seen one
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21:08:23 <kmc> x86 has a lot of 1 byte relative jumps
21:08:33 <kmc> wait maybe I wrote one...
21:08:36 <Fiora> ah, so you could just jump to a separate x86 chunk of code
21:08:42 <Fiora> using a jump that gets interpreted as some other valid instruction on arm
21:08:47 <Fiora> I guess that's kind of cheating XD
21:09:39 <kmc> that's how my Haskell - C - Python - Sh - Brainfuck - .COM file polyglot works
21:10:08 <olsner> e0 is loop on x86 and (iirc) the first byte of an unconditional arm instruction, so if you assume something about cx that might get you going
21:10:09 <kmc> yeah a COM file is just raw ia16 machine code
21:10:12 <kmc> at most 64kB of it
21:10:14 <shachaf> kmc: You should get a .com domain name and serve it from there.
21:10:27 <kmc> loaded at a fixed address
21:11:11 <kmc> my program starts with 'or bh, [bx+si+0x78]; jno 0x42'
21:11:33 <kmc> and 'or' sets OF=0 unconditionally
21:11:38 <zzo38> I like the DOS .COM executable format; it is good. My also computer I plan to make (codenamed POWERXY) also I intend to use headerless executable format, but without processor segments.
21:11:40 <shachaf> I,I x86 has a 1-byte relative jump with offset 0
21:12:50 <kmc> oh this also entailed making a printable-chars-only .COM file
21:13:03 <Fiora> O_O that's like the no null rule of shellcode, except worse
21:13:08 <kmc> echo 'h<|XP- {P_X(%GGG(%GGWZ- sh LI!XI!Hello, DOS!$' > hello.com && dosbox hello.com
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21:13:24 <shachaf> It's much worse -- I think you can't do it without self-modifying code, or something.
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21:13:32 <kmc> yeah mine has some
21:13:51 <shachaf> this is getting dangerously close to being on-topic
21:13:55 <kmc> for one wargame puzzle I had to construct shellcode where every other 16-bit word was 0
21:14:12 <Fiora> gosh I should try one of those sometime, those sound fun
21:14:14 <ais523> what does that do in x86? some sort of boring arithmetic instruction, isn't it?
21:14:17 <Fiora> even if they're probably mostly beyond me
21:14:37 <kmc> Fiora: http://io.smashthestack.org:84/
21:14:58 <shachaf> kmc: was that utf-32 or something
21:15:00 <kmc> ais523: what does which do?
21:15:07 <ais523> kmc: 16 bits of zeroes
21:15:09 <kmc> shachaf: no although I started trying to do the same thing before for utf-32
21:15:30 <kmc> it's add [eax], al
21:15:43 <kmc> which means eax does need to point to a valid bit of memory that you don't mind clobbering
21:16:08 <ais523> that doesn't seem so nasty
21:16:09 <kmc> i should install udcli in HackEgo
21:16:35 <kmc> ais523: yeah I just put 'mov eax, ebp' as the first instruction
21:16:40 <HackEgo> bash: cabal: command not found
21:16:55 <ais523> ebp is guaranteed to be valid, and yet you don't have to use it for anything
21:16:56 <kmc> then i had to build the payload (just an indirect jump actually) out of 1-2 byte instructions but that wasn't so bad
21:17:11 <ais523> kmc: I'm reminded of writing printable .COM files
21:17:13 <kmc> since you have a 2-byte mov to bh/bl and a 1 byte push and pop
21:17:16 <kmc> and a 2 byte shift
21:17:18 <ais523> the idea being that you don't have any uudecode on DOS by default
21:17:24 <ais523> so the first step would be to type the program in :)
21:17:24 <kmc> ais523: yeah
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21:17:36 <ais523> the main difficulty there is that you don't have any control flow instructions
21:17:48 <ais523> so you have to modify your own code to put a jump instruction there
21:18:19 <shachaf> Or you could find some indirect jump instruction and use that?
21:18:21 <kmc> Fiora: the io wargame is really fun, and it starts out pretty accessible even if you don't have lots of exploit experience
21:18:35 <ais523> shachaf: all the control flow instructions in x86 are unprintable, I think
21:18:49 <kmc> there are a few levels in there that count as among the most fun programming challenges i've done
21:18:51 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, you're back to printable code.
21:19:15 <shachaf> ais523: Right, I seem to remember that that wasn't possible without self-modifying code.
21:19:16 * Fiora will definitely go try that later
21:19:35 <kmc> ais523: nah, the relative conditional jumps are printable
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21:19:43 <ais523> kmc: which characters?
21:19:59 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I'm thinking of alphanumeric.
21:20:00 <kmc> 713d is jno 0x42
21:20:03 <ais523> I remember I worked it out in reverse, by writing out a bunch of printable characters then disassembling
21:20:05 <kmc> which is ASCII "q="
21:20:12 <kmc> yeah i did that too
21:20:19 <ais523> jno = jump if not odd? jump if not over?
21:20:25 <ais523> x86 conditional jumps annoy me a lot
21:20:35 <ais523> due to having ridiculous names
21:20:46 <kmc> not overflow
21:20:48 <ais523> oh, or jump on no overflow?
21:20:52 <kmc> my printable com file doesn't have jumps though https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/2971501
21:20:59 <kmc> but it's not a uudecoder or anything, just a hello world
21:21:21 <shachaf> s/conditional jump/instruction mnemonic/?
21:21:58 <kmc> Fiora: also a while back there was http://io.smashthestack.org:84/intro/
21:22:11 <Koen_> fizzie: u-psud.fr definitely works now (for the xkcd thing)
21:22:29 <Koen_> but I think he removed a restriction or something
21:22:44 <kmc> shachaf: apparently they also did http://io.smashthestack.org/arm/
21:22:49 <kmc> oh FreeFull entered into this one? cool
21:23:20 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't hear about that.
21:23:21 <Koen_> let me rephrase that - one of the schools in the list if cuntfisting.com so he most definitely removed all restrictions on domain names
21:23:33 <FreeFull> kmc: My entry was far from the best =P
21:23:46 <kmc> Koen_: a prestigious institution of higher learning
21:24:17 <kmc> wow they've gotten spammed recently
21:24:18 <Koen_> who do I send my application to?
21:24:32 <kmc> seems to be mostly porn sites now
21:24:39 <Koen_> also, why are there so many people with exactly 409 bits wrong?
21:24:47 <Koen_> is their some trivial algorithm to get 409?
21:25:04 <Koen_> I entered a random string and I got 529 or something
21:25:06 <kmc> i don't think there's any algorithm
21:25:09 <ais523> what's that xkcd about? the image doesn't load
21:25:18 <kmc> i think probably somebody found a 409 solution and sumbitted it a bunch of times
21:25:41 <FreeFull> kmc: What I did is display RGB shaded circles moving out
21:25:46 <FreeFull> But then apply xor to make it funky
21:25:57 <Koen_> the comic is too complicated for me
21:26:07 <Koen_> but apparently there's a reversing a hash contest going on
21:26:10 <kmc> ais523: if you get smallest hamming distance to the hash output listed at http://almamater.xkcd.com/ then your school gets in panel 1 of the strip
21:27:11 <zzo38> Even the Nostalgia skin in Wikipedia now is adding too many things, and yet they will remove it anyways; I think something like this would be better: http://sprunge.us/Jgci
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21:27:54 <ais523> zzo38: you can use myskin, that has no styling by default, you add the styling yourself
21:28:27 <boily> (hmm... the timely xkcd thing is still going strong. what the fungot is going on, I wonder...)
21:28:28 <fungot> boily: what is up with this:
21:28:38 <boily> fungot: well, that's what I'm asking for.
21:28:38 <fungot> boily: fnord is executed just before the tilt. oleg is very good, either.
21:29:03 <boily> fungot: I concur, but what relation has type hackery to a very, very slow comic?
21:29:04 <fungot> boily: not any extant ones. they should know better, i'd use that. but as far as rsbac is concerned, so you
21:29:14 <metasepia> RSBAC is an open source access control framework for current Linux kernels, which has been in stable production use since January 2000.
21:29:29 <fungot> olsner: hello. anyone know of a tool for exploration of ideas". i guess
21:29:34 <metasepia> INTERCAL is an esoteric programming language that was created as a parody by Don Woods and James M. Lyon, two Princeton University students, in 1972.
21:29:34 <boily> yet again I'm confused.
21:30:08 <zzo38> ais523: They still add all sorts of CSS and JavaScripts; I don't want styling at all, whether I add it myself or not.
21:30:15 <ais523> theory: ~duck asks duckduckgo for information about a topic, duckduckgo gets it from wikipedia
21:30:27 <ais523> zzo38: you could disable css and js in the browser
21:30:27 <fizzie> Koen_: Yes, and consequently the best.csv now has all kinds of things that are not universities.
21:30:45 <fizzie> Like a Finnish computer game magazine.
21:30:57 <Koen_> I wonder who's responsible for that!
21:31:46 <ais523> you know what? sound is too approximate
21:31:57 <zzo38> Yes, I could, but still, those skins require it (even Nostalgia requires it, although it is otherwise the best one)
21:31:58 <ais523> I can't hear something, then reproduce it well enough for people to understand, necessarily
21:33:22 <fizzie> There's also quite a lot of porn-sounding domains.
21:33:40 <metasepia> Sounding generally refers to a mechanism of probing the environment by sending out some kind of stimulus.
21:33:42 <Koen_> they sound like legit schools
21:34:05 <fizzie> Koen_: Well, yes, I guess analbabez.com is a university of good reputation, sure.
21:34:19 <zzo38> The reason we have used the Nostalgia skin is because we don't *want* the new features of MediaWiki!
21:34:20 <kmc> hey if cuntuniversity.com isn't a legit school
21:34:25 <kmc> then I don't know what to believe
21:34:26 <boily> ~duck pen island problem
21:34:27 <Koen_> it's just a weird transcription for Babylone
21:35:44 <zzo38> Even so, MySkin is also being removed!
21:37:28 <Fiora> kmc: um, so, like, once I ssh in, how do I play?
21:40:26 <Koen_> boily: that "where is the river now? / still pretty far away, it's actually retreated a little this week" comment makes me think they're gonna be flooded
21:41:16 <zzo38> I am not the only one to complain about this. Many people do.
21:42:06 <boily> zzo38: having your skin removed is generally a good source of vocal complains.
21:42:34 <boily> Koen_: I just skim updates about once a day. still have no clue where it's going.
21:47:07 <ais523> boily: well nethackwiki moved away from wikia because they tried to force a skin on us we didn't like
21:48:10 <boily> ais523: nethack is serious matters, and wikia tends to be generally evil.
21:48:20 <ais523> they didn't used to be, but they've got increasingly evil recently
21:55:06 <ais523> back when wikia search existed, it was the least evil search engine
21:55:15 <ais523> and was also very valuable due to having different results than other engines
21:55:38 <zzo38> I told them I might maintain it since nobody else does, but they don't want that.
21:58:36 <ais523> btw, mechanical translator annoyance: you enter a word into the translator, get the same word back, and eventually discover that the word exists in both languages with the same meaning but you'd never heard of it
22:00:03 <shachaf> Solution: Use languages with different alphabets.
22:00:23 <kmc> Fiora: try to exploit the binary /levels/level01, which is setuid to user level02
22:00:47 <ais523> kmc: it'd be hilarious if someone found an exploit for the OS and skipped past every level that way
22:00:59 <kmc> Fiora: there's a useful README in your homedir too
22:01:19 <kmc> ais523: yeah
22:01:23 <kmc> it's pretty locked down, but not impossible
22:01:29 <Fiora> "bash: /bin/ls: cannot allocate memory" what O_O
22:01:40 <kmc> yeah, sometimes the server is hosed :/
22:01:57 <kmc> if you run into persistant problems, join the IRC server and yell at them
22:02:04 <Fiora> oh geez,and trying to reconnect gets "shell request failed on channe 0" <_>
22:02:11 <kmc> bla or whoever's running the game these days will go kill a bunch of bruteforcer programs ;P
22:02:25 <ais523> yeah, having a publicly accessible shell account is often a bad idea ;)
22:02:29 <Fiora> what exactly do you mean by exploit? like, it looks to be programs asking for passwords
22:02:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: お休み！).
22:02:40 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:02:46 <kmc> yeah for level01 you just need to figure out the right password
22:02:55 <Fiora> oh. so um, just objdump it and look at the asm?
22:03:35 <kmc> in later levels you'll often need to convince the app to run arbitrary code by overflowing a buffer or something
22:03:58 <kmc> but there are other levels where the binary is a verifier for some completely unrelated challenge
22:04:05 <kmc> like 'construct a string with property X'
22:04:09 <kmc> i won't spoil it with more details ;)
22:04:15 <kmc> there's also some reverse engineering
22:04:34 <kmc> a few remote exploits, a few challenges to build exploits against old versions of real programs
22:06:09 <kmc> good stuff
22:06:31 <Fiora> okay yay level 1 done
22:07:04 <shachaf> I think you can also use strings to find the password.
22:07:27 <Fiora> I don't think so with level 1; it moved each byte into memory manually
22:07:32 <Fiora> it didn't store it in .data
22:07:42 <shachaf> Maybe I'm thinking of a different game.
22:11:58 <Fiora> okay so I won level 2, and it gave me a shell, what do I do with this shell? like I'm guessing there's supposed to be a password I have rights to now but I don't know >_<
22:12:55 <kmc> cat /home/level3/.pass
22:13:00 <kmc> then log back in as level3@whatever
22:13:49 <shachaf> this is the real challenge
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22:31:49 <Fiora> geez, how am I supposed to input non-printable characters in a bash prompt?
22:33:35 <Fiora> ah! xxd can go backwards
22:34:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:36:21 <Fiora> wow I just don't know bash
22:39:07 <Bike> no you must persevere
22:39:08 <Fiora> "echo: no such file or directory" aghaksjdfskjdls
22:39:10 <Bike> do this whatever it is
22:39:53 * Fiora actually gives up, I don't actually know enough linux to do it...
22:43:37 <variable> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5482649
22:43:45 <kmc> i use base64 for that
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22:45:02 <kmc> echo G1szMW1oZWxsbyBGaW9yYRtbMG0K | base64 -d
22:45:07 <variable> or your terminal might let you
22:45:11 <kmc> or i would do like, base64 -d > foo; *paste into terminal*, ^D
22:47:25 <Fiora> but how do I input it to the program
22:47:57 <Fiora> /levels/level3 $(base64 -d < $(echo blahblahblahblah))???
22:48:17 <kmc> /levels/level3 $(echo blahblah | base64 -d)
22:48:21 <kmc> actually probably
22:48:24 <kmc> /levels/level3 "$(echo blahblah | base64 -d)"
22:48:36 <Bike> it doesn't take its input on stdin? how dastardly
22:48:56 <kmc> a lot of mine were like /levels/level3 "$(perl -e 'print "x" x 1023'; cat shellcode)"
22:49:19 <kmc> where 'shellcode' was a file I already transferred using base64 -d > shellcode
22:49:25 <kmc> i think you can SCP things too
22:49:49 <kmc> also, I would typically make a directory for myself under /tmp for each level
22:49:54 <kmc> and stage things there
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22:51:25 <Fiora> 'base64: invalid input"
22:53:17 <Fiora> um, it won't let me write to tmp
22:53:44 <shachaf> I,I /levels/level3 $'a[\xab\xcd\x08...'
22:53:53 <kmc> you can't ls /tmp but you can make a directory there and then cd to it
22:53:56 <kmc> at least I just did
22:54:01 <kmc> yeah, Bash has this syntax shachaf mentions
22:54:06 <kmc> i think I didn't know about it when I was doing IO
22:54:08 <Fiora> I don't understand
22:54:44 <Fiora> what does I,I mean
22:54:51 <kmc> `run echo $'\x68\x65\x6c\x6c\x6f\x20\x77\x6f\x72\x6c\x64'
22:54:52 <Bike> i have no idea what I,I means
22:55:00 <Fiora> I an completely lost
22:55:01 <kmc> i,i means "i have no point, I just like saying"
22:55:13 <kmc> it's not a UNIX command, it's a weird chat idiom of MIT and CMU people
22:55:18 <kmc> and shachaf
22:55:24 <kmc> who is from everywhere
22:55:24 <Fiora> yes I can echo it but I want to run it as a command argument and that doesn't work!!
22:55:44 <Fiora> level3@io:~$ xxd - < "$(echo AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:55:47 <Fiora> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHSEBAg= | ba
22:55:53 <Fiora> -bash: t▒: No such file or directory
22:56:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Fiora is infringing on your trademark hth
22:56:20 <kmc> Fiora: oh, you can't have null bytes in command line arguments
22:56:27 <shachaf> also it's way too hot today
22:56:35 <shachaf> also i saw 8 google street view cars what were they doing
22:56:59 <kmc> that command actually would redirect xxd input from a file with a long name which is mostly nulls
22:58:16 <Fiora> agh. it's just completely ignoring my input. it's like the program isn't evn getting it
22:59:36 <kmc> what's your command line now?
22:59:54 <Fiora> level3@io:~$ /levels/level03 "$(echo AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQ
22:59:57 <Fiora> EBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQF0hAQI | base64 -d)"
23:00:03 <Fiora> it's too long, it should at the very least just do -something-
23:00:13 <Fiora> but the program just totally ignores the input...
23:01:10 <oerjan> is there an actual line break after that Q?
23:01:22 <Fiora> but my terminal isn't wide enough...
23:01:42 <kmc> Fiora: that looks right to me
23:01:59 <Fiora> I mean, like. it should at the very last crash it
23:02:03 <kmc> maybe try gdb --args /levels/level03 "$(echo ... blah blah)"
23:02:49 <Fiora> bleh. gdb doesn't work because it quickly scrolls off the bottom of my terminal
23:03:02 <Fiora> and I need to use 'clear' to fix it and that doesn't work in gdb
23:03:41 <kmc> what scrolls off?
23:03:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> hey Bike do you like kripke structures <-- i like kripke structures
23:03:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood).
23:03:54 <Fiora> um, the stuff, on the screen? I don't know how else to explain it @_@
23:04:06 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:04:08 <Fiora> you know, it hits the bottom, and then everything just all collides on the last line
23:04:16 <Fiora> and the screen won't scroll
23:04:25 <kmc> why doesn't it scroll :/
23:04:31 <ais523> Fiora: try running "reset" while gdb is shut
23:04:52 <ais523> and seeing if it works then
23:05:37 <oerjan> wait is this not the same as kripke semantics
23:05:41 <kmc> try a different local terminal program I guess?
23:05:50 <Bike> this is hardly like kripe semantics at all
23:05:51 <Fiora> um, what do you mean
23:05:57 <Fiora> you mean like,a different ssh client?
23:06:16 <Fiora> ... so um, instead of ssh...?
23:06:27 <kmc> well are you running ssh inside xterm or gnome-terminal or what?
23:06:36 <Fiora> um, inside of bash, I think
23:06:44 <kmc> i'm confused but definitely things should scroll rather than mashing together on the same line
23:07:04 <Bike> Fiora: What's your terminal emulator?
23:07:20 <Fiora> how do I even know
23:07:29 <Bike> Uh... well are you doing this on Windows?
23:08:08 <Bike> probably windows's terminal thing then, whatever that is
23:08:14 <kmc> PuTTY is the only good SSH client I know of for Windows
23:08:26 -!- iamcal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:08:30 <Fiora> but it works just fine on everything else...
23:09:08 <kmc> i don't know what specifically would cause the problem you're seeing, but I recommend PuTTY as the default Windows terminal window is really bad
23:09:11 <ais523> oh, Windows terminal is broken
23:09:19 <kmc> in fact I used to use PuTTY to log into a Cygwin sshd on localhost
23:09:25 <kmc> for this reason
23:09:32 <kmc> although I think there's a clean way of doing that now
23:09:54 <FireFly> Does windows' terminal do ECMA-48 yet?
23:09:55 <kmc> this one https://code.google.com/p/mintty/
23:10:22 <FireFly> (or powershell or something)
23:11:36 <Bike> Fiora: the terminal emulator is the program that runs an old-fashioned texty terminal inside your shiny modern graphical desktoppy thing. examples are xterm and gnome-terminal on linux and whatever windows does when you pop open a console window.
23:11:53 <Fiora> oh, but I was using cygwin
23:11:56 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. <Bike> oh god <Bike> fiora help somebody help <Bike> anybody
23:11:59 <HackEgo> 1006) <shachaf> Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. <Bike> oh god <Bike> fiora help somebody help <Bike> anybody
23:12:10 <shachaf> oerjan: which one do you like kripke structures or kripke semantics
23:12:31 <kmc> it sounds like Cygwin now ships Mintty, but I've also seen it used with the default Windows "running a DOS command" terminal emulator, which is shit
23:12:48 * Bike has no idea what cygwin does. go bike
23:13:09 <lambdabot> monochrom says: There are truths, damn truths, and Kripke structures.
23:13:35 <kmc> anyway I still recommend PuTTY, which is a standalone SSH client for Windows that is a GUI app as far as Windows is concerned, and has no interaction with the brokenness of terminals and terminal emulators on Windows
23:14:01 <Bike> "This article describes Kripke structures as used in model checking. For a more general description, see Kripke semantics." spooky
23:14:02 <shachaf> Wait, Fiora is using Windows with an SSH client that isn't PuTTY?
23:14:05 <Fiora> okay I'm using putty now...
23:14:08 <Bike> 2spooky i might say
23:14:54 <kmc> back in a bit
23:15:15 <shachaf> Fiora: How do you normally SSH?
23:15:51 <Fiora> um, I start up a cygwin window and use ssh
23:15:55 <Fiora> putty is nice but it doesn't support my private keys
23:16:03 <Fiora> so I kind of end up having to use regular ssh
23:16:40 <shachaf> PuTTY can import the private keys.
23:17:56 -!- ssue_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:18:17 <fizzie> "PuTTYgen" or some-such.
23:18:19 <shachaf> @google putty import ssh private keys
23:18:21 <lambdabot> http://www.electrictoolbox.com/putty-rsa-dsa-keys/
23:18:21 <lambdabot> Title: Use RSA and DSA key files with PuTTY and puttygen
23:18:37 <fizzie> And then you put it in Connection/SSH/Auth/Private key file for authentication.
23:18:40 <shachaf> puttygen.exe, it looks like
23:18:58 <shachaf> Then you can load it into memory ssh-agent-style. Or something. I don't know.
23:19:37 <fizzie> It has a ssh-agent style thing (pageant.exe) too, but you can just put the keyfile in the config as above.
23:19:43 <fizzie> (Then it'll ask for the passphrase.)
23:19:59 <shachaf> Bike: do you think you're ready to learn about the Codensity monad.........
23:20:32 <fizzie> Personally, I just generate a new key with PuTTYgen for the Windows box, copy-paste the OpenSSH-compatible public key string that PuTTYgen has in a textbox into authorized_keys, and go with that.
23:20:35 -!- ssue_ has joined.
23:20:52 <shachaf> Do you know how it works or should I explain it?
23:20:57 <Bike> i have no idea
23:20:58 <fizzie> (But it's certainly possible to import OpenSSH-y private keys too.)
23:21:20 <Fiora> okay that thing seems to work with the regular openssh keys? but not x.509 keys
23:21:41 <shachaf> CoYoneda is related to Functor.
23:21:42 <fizzie> You have X.509 certificates for SSH authentication? What are you, some kind of a madperson?
23:21:47 <Fiora> um, it's what they use at work
23:21:50 <Bike> functors are cool.
23:22:24 <shachaf> Bike: So you remember the functor laws?
23:22:33 <Fiora> but I guess that works for normal ones, thanks...
23:22:34 <shachaf> fmap f (fmap g x) = fmap (f . g) x
23:22:44 <Bike> yeah, and fmap id = id.
23:22:45 * Fiora sorry, a bit frantic at the moment
23:23:03 <shachaf> Bike: OK, so let's say you have some tree or something where the fmap operation is really expensive.
23:23:13 <shachaf> So you want to minimize the number of fmaps
23:23:37 <shachaf> So instead of fmap (+1) . fmap (*2) . fmap (^3), you'll want to say fmap (\x -> x^3 * 2 + 1)
23:23:58 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:24:23 <shachaf> Now let's say you want to pass this to some other function, and you don't know how many fmaps it'll be doing.
23:25:02 <shachaf> It makes sense to split it up into two pieces: Instead of just passing around (Tree Int), you can pass around (Tree Int, Int -> Char)
23:25:08 <shachaf> Where Char can be anything.
23:25:19 <Fiora> ... gah, it won't even let me write data in tmp
23:25:25 <shachaf> Then you can just compose more functions onto the (Int -> Char) part, and leave the (Tree Int) alone until the very end, when you can apply one big function.
23:26:04 <shachaf> So you can make a type like this: data TreeWrapper a = TreeWrapper (Tree Int) (Int -> a)
23:26:21 <shachaf> The interesting thing is that TreeWrapper is a Functor without ever using Tree's fmap.
23:26:24 <fizzie> Fiora: If the authentication is using the usual SSH public-key mechanisms (like it seems), you should be able to just http://trueg.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/use-an-x-509-certificate-for-ssh-login/ a X.509 cert it into an OpenSSH-compatible private key (slight modifications are needed, that guide makes a public key for authorized_keys) and then from there onwards import to puttygen. If you want to.
23:26:29 <shachaf> (Can you write the instance?)
23:26:34 <Bike> Without /ever/? Not even at the end?
23:26:46 <shachaf> But not for instance Functor TreeWrapper
23:27:10 <Fiora> fizzie: I think that requires ssh being compiled with x509 support or something... I'm not sure >_<
23:27:53 <Bike> let's see, i guess fmap f (TreeMapper t g) = TreeMapper t (g . f) or so
23:28:02 <fizzie> Fiora: Come to think of it, aren't the OpenSSH private keys already in PEM format? I would think you could just extract the private key with openssl from whatever you have (PKCS12?).
23:28:15 <Fiora> I-I don't really want to mess with that now...
23:28:41 <fizzie> Fiora: If it's some special kind of authentication mechanism, maybe it's special. Who knows. (You have a weird thing.)
23:28:56 <nooodl__> i'm thinking it's (f.g) instead of (g.f), wait, does that make sense
23:29:03 <Bike> and then you have runMapper (TreeMapper t f) = fmap f t
23:29:17 <shachaf> Bike: (f . g), not (g . f)
23:29:17 <kmc> how did we end up on X.509 keys o_O
23:29:35 <kmc> oh not for io.sts
23:29:48 <Bike> I always get confused about what order composition works in, for some reason.
23:29:54 <shachaf> Bike: OK, next step: data AnythingWrapper f a = AnythingWrapper (f Int) (Int -> a)
23:30:20 <fizzie> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6187 -- huh. The more you know.
23:30:25 <shachaf> Bike: Last step: data Foo f a = forall x. Foo (f x) (x -> a)
23:30:26 <Bike> It should be h(x) such that h(x) = f(g(x)) anyway
23:30:44 <shachaf> Bike: This uses an extension called ExistentialQuantification to hide which type the Int actually is.
23:30:57 <Bike> Wait, why do you need to do that.
23:31:00 <kmc> ghc -XExistentialDespair
23:31:09 <shachaf> Since you don't care that it's Int. You just care that it's *some* type x, and that you have a function :: (x -> a)
23:31:19 <Bike> Yeah but like... why is there an extension.
23:31:32 <shachaf> Because that forall in data declarations isn't allowed in standard Haskell.
23:31:44 <Bike> or rather "oh"
23:31:54 <Bike> but also, what's existential about it? ...oh, wait, huh.
23:32:10 <kmc> it's sort of an abuse of syntax to use 'forall' for existential types
23:32:15 <kmc> but there's a sense in which it makes sense
23:32:15 <Bike> that's pretty confusing for a universal quantifier though :/
23:32:21 <Bike> yeah i think i see it but still
23:32:24 <shachaf> Bike: It's existential because the type exists.
23:32:38 <shachaf> I can explain the relationship between forall and exists sometime if you like.
23:32:46 <shachaf> OK, so now you can write liftFoo :: f a -> Foo f a
23:32:51 <shachaf> And lowerFoo :: Functor f => Foo f a -> f a
23:32:52 <nooodl__> blhhhhhrgh. i should read things about category theory but where do i start
23:33:15 <monqy> nooodl__: what are you going for her
23:33:18 <shachaf> nooodl__: start here https://twitter.com/copumpkin/status/302960443067101185 hth
23:33:22 <Bike> shachaf: liftFoo doesn't require a functor?
23:33:31 <kmc> if you say «data Foo = forall a. Bar (a -> Int)» then «Bar :: forall a. (a -> Int) -> Foo»
23:33:48 <kmc> so it does produce a forall in the constructor type
23:33:55 <kmc> quantifying on a variable that does not appear in the result type
23:34:05 <fizzie> So it... sends the client's X.509 cert (and intermediates etc.) to the server, which verifies that against a root, and accepts the public key based on that. Okay, yes; I don't think PuTTY supports that at all.
23:34:08 <shachaf> kmc: You know how turning an existential constraint into a universal constraint is just currying?
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23:34:57 <shachaf> Bike: So write liftFoo and lowerFoo
23:35:10 <shachaf> Bike: As you probably guessed, Foo is CoYoneda.
23:35:35 <Bike> i didn't guess that.
23:36:22 <shachaf> Another perspective: data Foo f a = forall x. Foo (x -> a) (f x)
23:36:34 <shachaf> fmap :: forall x a. (x -> a) -> f x -> f a
23:36:45 <shachaf> So Foo just contains the two arguments to fmap.
23:37:03 <shachaf> This is why lowerFoo needs the Functor constraint -- it just applies fmap.
23:37:18 <shachaf> I guess I'm spoiling the exercise a bit.
23:37:29 <Bike> oh. but it wouldn't be very useful if you started with something you couldn't fmap later though.
23:37:45 <shachaf> Well, usually not. But sometimes.
23:37:57 <shachaf> You can treat (CoYoneda IORef) as a read-only IORef, sort of.
23:38:10 <Bike> Dude I don't even know what an IORef is.
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23:38:23 <shachaf> Bike: However: When f is a Functor, CoYoneda f is isomorphic to f
23:38:40 <shachaf> This is called the Yoneda lemma -- or is a special case of it. Or something.
23:38:49 <shachaf> maybe monqy wants to take over here
23:38:50 <kmc> what's yellow &c.
23:39:12 <Bike> I'm just sitting here thinking it's great you're explaining this to me and all but I have written like twenty lines of haskell max, and I have a headache because a guy brought in five hundred pounds of unpackaged food and told us he was "sworn to secrecy" about where he got it, and, and, math is so hard ;_;
23:39:29 <kmc> i'll summon monqy
23:39:35 <kmc> HEY I THINK JAVASCRIPT IS A PRETTY OK LANGUAGE
23:39:45 <Bike> Do you know how much food that is? Have you ever seen two hundred pounds of cheese in one place before
23:39:57 <kmc> Bike: why are you friends with a professional food thief
23:40:04 <kmc> better question: why am I not friends with a professional food thief
23:40:08 <shachaf> Bike: well this is what the poor perl person felt like when you were talking about functors
23:40:20 <kmc> poorperlperson.tumblr.com
23:40:20 <shachaf> Bike: "maybe u'll think about ur actions next time"
23:40:28 <Bike> He probably has seen two hundred pounds of cheese in one place before though.
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23:40:54 <shachaf> Bike: btw Yoneda is like CoYoneda except backwards
23:41:00 <kmc> i think if you go to a cheese shop you can see two hundred pounds of cheese p. easily
23:41:06 <Bike> yes yes we have to prepend Co- to everything to make it backwards
23:41:17 <shachaf> I think CoYoneda is more intuitive than Yoneda
23:41:19 <kmc> Haskell the Hultimate
23:41:39 <nooodl__> imo instead of prefixing Co- people should write stuff backwards
23:41:44 <kmc> shachaf: btw did you see KeithW et al's computer networking blog http://www.layer9.org/ "It's like a LAMBDA THE ULTIMATE but for NETWORKING RESEARCH"
23:41:47 <Bike> i think probably i should actually learn group theory, and then i should figure out what yoneda has to do with that other Group Theory Thing
23:41:53 <kmc> nooodl__: gb2shellprogramming
23:42:07 <Bike> if ... then... coif
23:42:21 <oerjan> @remember <kmc> ghc -XExistentialDespair
23:42:23 <nooodl__> and stuff that is its own dual should have palindrome names?
23:42:25 <kmc> Bike: coif is a good word
23:42:31 <Bike> exercise: define coelse
23:42:54 <shachaf> oerjan..............................
23:43:00 <shachaf> @forget <kmc> ghc -XExistentialDespair
23:43:04 <kmc> Bike: Python has while..else, is that like coelse? 'imo no'
23:43:05 <shachaf> @remember kmc ghc -XExistentialDespair
23:43:17 <shachaf> oerjan: I went through dozens of these in the lambdabot quote database yesterday.
23:43:17 <kmc> also for..else
23:44:10 <Bike> yeah i remember forgetting how that works because i'm bad at python
23:44:26 <shachaf> imo it's because Python is bad at Bike
23:44:26 <Bike> im bad at everything
23:44:30 <kmc> it might be one of those features that is obscure enough that any code using it automatically qualifies as obfuscated
23:44:36 <kmc> i think i used it.... once, maybe
23:44:36 <shachaf> Python is good at cheese shops though
23:44:36 <nooodl__> shachaf: python is cobad at bike?
23:45:01 <kmc> python is kobold
23:45:42 <oerjan> <kmc> what's yellow &c. <-- a bananach space hth
23:46:30 <Bike> shoulda just done like physics and thrown "anti-" everywhere
23:46:39 <kmc> shachaf: I tried to convince geofft to port GPG to GRUB and/or UEFI
23:46:47 <kmc> i think with Secure Boot, this is actually a useful and valuable thing
23:46:48 <Bike> then you'd have to make jokes about nomies instead of about mpositions.
23:46:59 <nooodl__> i hear "dual" isn't really the same as "opposite" though?
23:47:12 <kmc> he keeps adding things to GRUB that look suspiciously like a userspace
23:47:24 <oerjan> <kmc> i think if you go to a cheese shop you can see two hundred pounds of cheese p. easily <-- i have seen reliable evidence that cheese shops have no cheese hth
23:47:24 <shachaf> nooodl__: fun fact some 2-categories (or was it bicategories) have both duals and opposites
23:47:27 <Bike> As far as I've heard "dual" basically means "it's useful to call it dual"
23:47:33 <kmc> i think in another 10 years they will reveal that GRUB is secretly The GNU Kernel
23:47:38 <shachaf> so you have C C^op C^co C^coop
23:47:46 <kmc> shachaf: head = explod
23:47:49 <monqy> Bike: duality is when you reverse the arrows
23:48:04 <monqy> Bike: alt. the dual of a thing is that thing in the opposite category (i.e. you reverse the arrows)
23:48:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan.............................. <-- i remembered that the next second :(
23:48:22 <nooodl__> anyway i started reading http://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~fokkinga/mmf92b.pdf yesterday but is it good??? imo it's not gentle at all
23:48:27 <shachaf> oerjan: The worst part is that evidence remains forever.
23:48:29 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list
23:48:35 <shachaf> @quote somethingthatdoesntexist
23:48:35 <lambdabot> No quotes match. My brain just exploded
23:49:16 <Bike> kmc: still better than HURD yuk yuk
23:50:35 <shachaf> Maybe I'm thinking of something else entirely.
23:50:45 <shachaf> nooodl__: hey want a "ddariuscommendation"
23:50:52 <oerjan> <Bike> shoulda just done like physics and thrown "anti-" everywhere <-- well there is anticommutative hth
23:50:55 <nooodl__> in 1.13 it starts talking about "expressing concepts categorically" and it gives literally no examples, it just goes, here make these exercises, i cried & stopped reading
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23:51:11 <shachaf> 23:36 <ddarius> shachaf: Awodey's book and/or Barr and Wells' ESSLLI lecture notes to start.
23:51:36 <shachaf> want some edwardkommendations
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23:52:52 <shachaf> _Category Theory as Coherently Constructive Lattice Theory_
23:54:56 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: The worst part is that evidence remains forever. <-- i thought i saw something about some people cleaning up lambdabot.
23:55:22 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, I cleaned up all the lambdabot quote database and gave it to Cale.
23:55:30 <shachaf> Now it's not going to be cleaned up again.
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23:55:46 <shachaf> there were literally no <nick> quotes before you did your thing........
23:55:59 <Bike> oerjan's a trendsetter
23:56:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean, actual code.
23:56:58 * oerjan hides behind his laptop that nearly explodes when updating lens
23:57:19 <shachaf> oerjan: What do you think: Yoneda or CoYoneda?
23:58:16 <oerjan> i think that's about the point where i drop out of category theory hth
23:58:22 <Bike> the category of tepid swamps
23:58:32 <shachaf> oerjan: no not in category theory in haskell
23:58:56 <shachaf> oerjan: newtype Yoneda f a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall b. (a -> b) -> f b }
23:59:13 <shachaf> oerjan: data CoYoneda f a = forall x. CoYoneda (f x) (x -> a)
23:59:38 <shachaf> when f is a functor it's isomorphic to Yoneda f and to CoYoneda f
23:59:45 <shachaf> so which one should i prefer
00:00:01 <shachaf> btw Bike did you write lift and lower for CoYoneda
00:01:59 <oerjan> <fizzie> He usually logreads, so perhaps no particular need to tell (or @tell). <-- well it went faster that way
00:02:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Didn't I ask you something while you were gone?
00:02:58 <Bike> i don't get how liftFoo :: f a -> Foo f a makes sense actually.
00:03:26 <shachaf> Try to write it with the Functor constraint.
00:03:37 <shachaf> Then you'll see how it works.
00:03:48 <oerjan> shachaf: #haskell took too much time
00:03:54 <Bike> well i mean where's the function come from
00:03:58 <shachaf> Oh, right. That's what I asked.
00:03:58 <Bike> or do you just throw in id or something
00:04:30 <shachaf> Bike: What this does is turn zero or more applications of fmap into exactly one application.
00:04:47 <shachaf> Given the two functor laws, you can show that the end result is the same as what you'd've gotten anyway.
00:04:59 <shachaf> fmap f . fmap g = fmap (f . g)
00:05:33 <Bike> lift fuck = Foo fuck id, lower (Foo f a) = fmap a f
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00:06:10 <shachaf> So look at what you're doing -- Foo is literally holding the two arguments to fmap in a data structure.
00:06:33 <Bike> every time i learn a haskell thing i just think "well, that was simple"
00:06:36 <shachaf> (And a bit of type system nonsense to forget about the original type, since it don't matter.)
00:07:07 <Bike> what, write it?
00:07:28 <shachaf> Where CoYoneda has the *arguments* to fmap, Yoneda has the *result* of fmap.
00:07:29 <Bike> i have no idea how so i'm going to not do that atm
00:07:41 <shachaf> fmap :: forall a. forall b. (a -> b) -> F a -> F b
00:07:55 <shachaf> flip fmap :: forall a. F a -> (forall b. (a -> b) -> F b)
00:08:05 <shachaf> Yoneda F a = forall b. (a -> b) -> F b
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00:08:21 <shachaf> With Yoneda, lift has a Functor constraint, but lower doesn't.
00:09:51 <shachaf> I guess you could say: fmap :: CoYoneda f a -> f a
00:11:19 <oerjan> ok so with Yoneda you aren't guaranteed any elements even exist unless f is a functor, right?
00:11:34 <oerjan> but with CoYoneda you are
00:11:50 <shachaf> Well, there could still be inhabitants of Yoneda f a when f isn't a Functor.
00:12:00 <shachaf> But it won't be very well-behaved.
00:12:07 <shachaf> No guarantees, either way.
00:13:49 <oerjan> otoh with CoYoneda you aren't guaranteed that you can get any f element out of it again.
00:14:40 <shachaf> I,I (>>=) :: m a -> Codensity m a
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00:15:07 <shachaf> (=>>) :: Density w a -> w a
00:16:06 <shachaf> Codensity is the same thing as Yoneda except for monads.
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00:16:21 <shachaf> newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall r. (a -> m r) -> m r }
00:16:47 <shachaf> data Density w a = forall x. Density (w x) (w x -> a)
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00:43:11 <Koen_> okay got the second admission test tomorrow morning
00:43:23 <Koen_> it's supposed to last ten minutes
00:44:09 <Koen_> and since the first test actually took 30 minutes instead of the whole hour they advertised... good luck having the motivation to wake up early just for five minutes of playing with tangrams
00:45:54 <kmc> admission to what?
00:47:10 <Koen_> some computer science school
00:47:24 <Gregor> He's so excited about it he doesn't even remember its name.
00:47:41 <Koen_> but "some computer science school" makes it look more serious
00:47:45 <kmc> is it really
00:48:20 <kmc> 42-grok-combinator-dojo.edu
00:48:31 <kmc> ok seriously though, what are you talking about
00:48:53 <Fiora> The SKI Institute of Lambda Calculus
00:48:58 <Koen_> well the guy who owns free decided he had so much money he could just create his own school just like that
00:49:09 <Bike> you mean free.fr?
00:49:22 <Bike> i'm gonna level with you i thought that was a government service
00:49:39 <kmc> Bike it's france everything is a government service (zing)
00:49:41 <Koen_> no that's a telephone / internet company
00:50:04 <Koen_> apparently the guy became wealthy thanks to the sex minitel business
00:50:06 <Bike> à prix incroyable, apparently
00:50:26 <Koen_> yeah they have a reputation like that
00:50:31 <Fiora> kmc: um, so I kind of let myself calm down and get less anxious by doing some other things, and so, I'm up to level 5
00:50:31 <monqy> so what's the deal with this "computer science school"
00:50:37 <kmc> Fiora: cool cool :)
00:50:40 <Fiora> my exploit works fine in gdb, but... it sigills outside of gdb?
00:50:54 <kmc> they're named '42' as a clever reference to 'hacker culture'
00:50:56 <Fiora> (and in gdb it doesn't get me the level6 shell, just a level5 shell)
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00:51:07 <Bike> a clever reference to 'h2g2 culture'
00:51:18 <Koen_> it's much worse than that
00:51:18 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, programs running in a debugger lose setuid bits
00:51:20 <monqy> ah, nerd culture strikes again
00:51:25 <kmc> otherwise you could exploit them so easily
00:51:26 <shachaf> Fiora: gdb does all sorts of things to make debugging easy
00:51:31 <Koen_> every mail they sends me is full of 1337 crap
00:51:33 <shachaf> Fiora: Like disable ASLR and what not.
00:51:43 <Koen_> and other references to geek stuff
00:51:44 <Fiora> oh. the system has ASLR on? :<
00:51:48 <kmc> does GDB actually disable ASLR?
00:51:51 <monqy> are you sure they teach compsci and not like
00:51:54 <kmc> and no, the io.sts system doesn't have ASLR enabled
00:52:00 <monqy> idk something stupid
00:52:00 <Bike> Koen_: wait wait wait, is this a for-profit school?
00:52:02 <kmc> a few binaries have ghetto ASLR glued on
00:52:06 <Fiora> yeah, I ran my exploit like 100,000 times
00:52:06 <kmc> you'll see it in the source
00:52:07 <Bike> because like... fuck that shit, you know?
00:52:17 <Koen_> anyway apparently you have to pass the tests online, and then if you pass you get a free course over the summer
00:52:18 <kmc> Fiora: do you have a big NOP sled?
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00:52:23 <Fiora> ummmm no, no nop sled
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00:52:29 <Fiora> how big should the nop sled be?
00:52:36 <kmc> as big as you can get away with
00:52:38 <Koen_> and then if they still want you after that you get in the school starting november or something
00:52:44 <kmc> i think i've put 1MB nop sleds on the command line
00:52:45 <Koen_> and it's supposedly all free
00:52:53 <Koen_> so I figured I could as well enter
00:53:14 <Fiora> but this is a 128 byte array I'm overflowing
00:53:37 <shachaf> are you asking for spoilers here :'(
00:53:39 <Fiora> and at the end I have to clobber a return value
00:53:46 <Fiora> n-no... I don't mean that...!
00:53:54 <Bike> well you can just fuck memory right
00:54:01 <Bike> fill that shit with xchg eax eax
00:54:15 <kmc> Fiora: yeah your shellcode might go in a different arg from the buffer overflow
00:54:18 <kmc> or even in an env var
00:54:31 <kmc> you just need to get that code somewhere in the process's address space, and guess its address
00:54:33 <Fiora> I thought you put the code in the buffer and then try to jump to it
00:54:42 <kmc> and if you have a big nop sled then you don't need to guess too accurately
00:54:59 <kmc> Fiora: that's often the case, with remote exploits especially, but not here
00:55:09 <monqy> iim interested to see what "42" actually teaches, what "42" really is
00:55:10 -!- eyni_espt has left.
00:55:12 <kmc> the great thing about setuid binaries is that the user^Wattacker controls so much of their execution environment
00:55:14 <Fiora> how would I iterate over a gazillion different addresses in my overflow to try it?
00:55:24 <Koen_> monqy: weeeeeeeell it's really really unclear
00:55:27 <Fiora> I guess perl magic or something
00:55:29 <monqy> im betting it's a front for i-drugs.
00:55:34 <Koen_> I'm probably not interested
00:55:34 <kmc> Fiora: i think you'll find that env vars are loaded at a roughly constant address
00:55:37 <kmc> as is argv
00:55:44 <kmc> gdb's results should be reasonable accurate there
00:55:49 <zzo38> (Codensity f) is not necessarily the same as f, but in some cases it is such as Identity or Finalize. Other times you get other existing monads such as (Codensity ((->) x)) making (State x). In all cases it makes a monad though, even if f isn't.
00:55:58 <Koen_> which will make it even harder to get up tomorrow morning :p
00:55:59 <kmc> but yeah, you could use perl's pack function to generate a bunch of addresses
00:56:06 <Fiora> um, how would I look at an env variable in gdb?
00:56:09 <shachaf> kmc: A curious scientific phenomenonis that the fingernails grow after death. As does the beard.
00:56:09 <Bike> "The answer to free, peer-to-peer IT courses and everything? For France, it's 42" why did i look this up
00:56:31 <Bike> variable it's your own damn fault
00:56:32 <zzo38> When writing Linux programs meant as setuid I have tried to be careful to ensure that it won't cause a security issue
00:56:54 <Bike> monqy: that's a news article not the thing
00:56:56 <shachaf> Fiora: cat /proc/pid/environ hth
00:57:04 <Fiora> oww, what did I do :<
00:57:05 <kmc> that doesn't give you the address of the environment array does it
00:57:11 <Bike> the thing is http://www.42.fr/ supposedly but it doesn't seem up
00:57:15 <Bike> Fiora: pinged 'em
00:57:20 <Fiora> level5@io:~$ cat /proc/pid/environ
00:57:21 <Fiora> cat: /proc/pid/environ: No such file or directory
00:57:34 <variable> /proc is the root of many bugs
00:57:49 <variable> Fiora: you can set with set environment foo = bar
00:57:52 <Bike> Fiora: pid is something you replace with your pid
00:57:56 <kmc> but the goal isn't to find out what's in the environment, the goal is to find the address of the environment array itself
00:57:58 <Fiora> yes but how do I know where the address is >_<
00:58:00 <Koen_> Bike: uuuuuh what have you done I can't log in to their site
00:58:06 <Fiora> but I don't know the pid
00:58:10 <Bike> Koen_: i broke it. this cannot be allowed to stand.
00:58:10 <kmc> Fiora: for some reason "p environ" isn't giving useful values in gdb :/
00:58:22 <kmc> anyway it's usually right after argv
00:58:26 <kmc> somewhere on the stack
00:58:28 <Fiora> yes but where is argv
00:58:31 <variable> Fiora: for the x86 its right before the argv
00:58:32 <kmc> so you could break on main
00:58:33 <Bike> I'm pretty sure there's a cheat folder to get your own pid but i forget it
00:58:39 <Fiora> um, kmc, I already did that...
00:58:43 <Fiora> that's how I got the current address...
00:58:46 <oerjan> <Koen_> and it's supposedly all free <-- so... did you happen to discover this yesterday? *cough*
00:58:48 <Fiora> but it doesn't work...
00:59:00 <oerjan> sorry, the day before yesterday
00:59:05 <shachaf> Fiora: you can turn on ASLR in gdb to get a "more realistic debugging experience" hth
00:59:06 <kmc> Fiora: but did you try it with a huge nop sled + some fudging of addresses
00:59:08 <Koen_> oerjan: a week ago I think
00:59:14 <Fiora> shachaf: but the machine has aslr off
00:59:25 <shachaf> So why isn't it working without gdb?
00:59:26 <Fiora> kmc just said that it did...
00:59:33 <Fiora> I don't knowwwwwwwwwwwwww
00:59:34 <shachaf> imo investigate what's going on
00:59:35 <Fiora> that's what I am trying to ask
00:59:45 <shachaf> investigating what's going on is the whole point of these exercises imo
00:59:56 <kmc> fudging meaning just try adjusting it
00:59:59 <variable> Bike: /proc/self is your own pid in rootmefs
01:00:10 <Fiora> I tried adjusting it up/down 16/32/48 ish manually
01:00:15 <kmc> if your nop sled is 4 kB then try moving the address up and down in 4kB increments
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01:00:24 <Fiora> but... I only have 128 bytes of room...
01:00:24 <Bike> is rootmefs an insult
01:00:35 <kmc> Fiora: no because you can put your shellcode in a separate argument or env variable
01:00:48 * Sgeo decides to watch some Emo Philips
01:00:56 <variable> Bike: /proc has been the cause of many a linux kernel bug
01:01:03 <Fiora> I asked how to get the address of an environment variable but nobody answered me,..
01:01:22 <shachaf> char buf[128]; strcpy(buf, argv[1]); ...?
01:01:37 <variable> Fiora: there is no *portable* way to get the address of "the envrionment"; you can cheat if you know the architecture
01:01:47 <variable> or you can usw show envrionemnt
01:01:58 <kmc> ./foo "$(perl -e 'print "x" x 128; print "\xef\xbe\xad\x0b"')" "$(perl -e 'print "\x90" x 4096'; cat shellcode)"
01:02:01 <kmc> Fiora: something like that
01:02:12 <kmc> the first arg overflows the buffer and overwrites the return address
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01:02:24 <kmc> the second arg is ignored by the program, but gets your shellcode into its address space with a big nop sled
01:02:30 <kmc> variable: I don't think /proc is relevant or helpful here
01:02:48 <variable> kmc: someone else mentioned it
01:02:54 <Fiora> is shellcode supposed to be a file...?
01:02:58 <kmc> Fiora: in that case yeah
01:03:02 <Fiora> but I can't write files
01:03:19 <kmc> well that's not supposed to happen, but anyway, you could also do it inline
01:03:21 <Fiora> not in tmp not anywhere
01:03:55 <Bike> fiora, it's alright
01:03:58 <variable> Fiora: you don't need the shellcode to be in a file
01:04:07 <kmc> Fiora: you could move the shellcode into the perl invocation, like the first one
01:04:28 <Fiora> but your example gives the program two arguments but it needs 1
01:04:47 <shachaf> Did they change the passwords or something?
01:04:55 <kmc> shachaf: they do change them periodically
01:05:01 <kmc> you can get the new password in IRC
01:05:16 <kmc> Fiora: well does it actually refuse to run with 2 args, or does it just ignore the second one?
01:05:30 <kmc> if it refuses to run, you can put that shellcode in an environment variable instead
01:05:48 <Fiora> um, it supports more, but... I don't get it
01:05:49 <kmc> it just needs to end up somewhere in the process's address space, with a vaguely predictable address
01:06:06 <kmc> so that you can overflow the buffer and make that function return to this address
01:06:10 <Bike> Fiora: You just need the shellcode to be in the address space when the buffer overflows. It doesn't matter so much how it gets in.
01:06:18 <Fiora> but I already got it in
01:06:21 <Fiora> and I already checked the address
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01:06:44 <kmc> Fiora: but your address is probably slightly off, due to differences between gdb and non-gdb environment
01:06:49 <kmc> that's the point of the NOP sled
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01:07:01 <kmc> means you don't need to be so precise guessing the address
01:07:36 <kmc> and needing a big NOP sled is why you want to put the shell code in a separate arg / env var, rather than the buffer you're overflowing
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01:09:44 <kmc> btw I found that addresses would differ depending on whether I ran the program as ./level05 or /levels/level05
01:09:50 <kmc> because that alters the length of argv[0]
01:09:59 <kmc> but if your nop sled is big enough then this doesn't really matter
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01:10:54 <Jafet> gdb always puts the full path in *argv
01:11:50 <Fiora> http://privatepaste.com/e72a7592bf bash doesn't seem to want me to do this...
01:11:52 <Fiora> with the $a and $b...
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01:12:28 <kmc> well it's inside a string that's single-quoted from the shell's perspective isn't it
01:12:37 <kmc> so those $a and $b are perl variables but not shell variables
01:12:43 <Fiora> I want to just bruteforce it
01:12:51 <kmc> move the assignment into perl :)
01:12:57 <Fiora> ... I don't know any perl
01:13:05 <kmc> good excuse to learn some
01:13:08 <Fiora> and um, I need to loop
01:13:13 <Fiora> I don't think I can loop inside that...
01:13:15 <Bike> or python, or whatever simple thing.
01:13:19 <kmc> perl has loops
01:13:23 <shachaf> Fiora: i did it without knowing any perl
01:13:24 <kmc> sorry to state the obvious
01:13:41 <Fiora> Can't modify constant item in scalar assignment at -e line 1, near "FB;"
01:14:13 <kmc> btw if I ssh to level1@io.smashthestack.org and then mkdir /tmp/esoteric_rulez and then cd /tmp/esoteric_rulez
01:14:14 <shachaf> Fiora: just pretend it's AVX2, hth
01:14:16 <kmc> then i can create files there
01:14:21 <Fiora> kmc: ????? i can't
01:14:32 <kmc> not sure what I'm doing differently :(
01:14:38 <Fiora> level5@io:~$ touch /tmp/fiora/test
01:14:39 <Fiora> touch: cannot touch `/tmp/fiora/test': Permission denied
01:15:12 <kmc> hm: mkdir: cannot create directory `/tmp/fiora': File exists
01:15:18 <Fiora> yeah, because I already made it...
01:15:29 <kmc> did you make it as a different user
01:15:36 <kmc> you need one directory per level basically
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01:21:40 <Fiora> oh cool I can write c code now
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01:22:04 <shachaf> You can always write C code locally and upload it via base64.
01:22:40 <Bike> fiora proceeds to write a complete suite of tools for autogenerating shellcode instead of using perl
01:23:34 <kmc> Fiora: i read that in the same tone as "i know kung fu"
01:23:48 <Fiora> shachaf: would that work? I mean, like, it wouldn't be compiled on the same system...
01:24:05 <shachaf> if only binaries could be compiled on one system and run on another
01:24:16 <shachaf> an innovation left for the 22nd century
01:24:17 <Bike> you don't need to be sarcastic.
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01:24:46 <Fiora> I thought linux wasn't that great at that... like you can't go and run some random gentoo binary on an ubuntu system and have it using an identical libc and stuff or something can you or am I totally confused
01:25:31 <shachaf> You can always write a program that doesn't use libc!!
01:25:37 <shachaf> The kernel ABI is very stable.
01:26:12 <Fiora> what I went and just like ran my original code that didn't work
01:26:21 <Fiora> maybe it was because I had a different cwd? @_@
01:26:22 <Bike> programming defined :D
01:26:50 <shachaf> Fiora: Maybe it only works some of the time?
01:27:00 <Fiora> I ran it 5^5 times without success earlier...
01:27:07 <shachaf> Sometimes on games like this with ASLR I just ran my program a few thousand times until it worked.
01:27:28 <Fiora> actually I think I ran that loop like a few dozen times too so
01:27:46 <Fiora> kmc: /levels/level05 "$(echo McBQaC8vc2hoL2JpbonjUFOJ4bALzYBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEDQ+/+/ | base64 -d)"
01:27:50 <Fiora> (that ended up doing it)
01:28:11 <Bike> I thought you meant the next level was about exploiting a bignum implementation, that'd be cool.
01:28:31 * Bike doesn't know anything about implementing bignums other than the obvious way though.
01:29:18 <Fiora> good job stressing yourself out over stupid things fifi
01:29:26 <kmc> Fiora: you beat the level? cool
01:29:30 <Bike> there there fiora
01:29:35 <Bike> you are infinity times farther in this than i am
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01:31:54 <zzo38> The kind of MediaWiki skin I want to use would be something like this: http://sprunge.us/Jgci Maybe I can try to write one.
01:32:08 <zzo38> There are others who have said they wanted to have "unstyled" skin, and so on.
01:32:13 <zzo38> What do you think of this?
01:32:49 <zzo38> (Render as HTML if you want to yourself, to see how it appears on your computer)
01:32:52 <Bike> Is that a skin because it looks li- oh.
01:33:05 <Bike> Does mediawiki seriously use allcaps html?
01:34:18 <zzo38> It doesn't have to, either.
01:34:19 <Bike> Your skin looks like every professor's webpage.
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01:34:43 <zzo38> Using allcaps HTML is not what I mean at all; that doesn't matter (unless it is XHTML, which mine isn't)
01:35:16 <zzo38> Like every professor's webpage? I didn't know that, but that is irrelevant.
01:36:14 <kmc> it matters in XHTML?
01:36:21 <Bike> Well I mean... I don't know what a skin is, but there's no css or nuthin
01:36:40 <Bike> kmc: xml is case sensitive
01:36:46 <zzo38> XHTML has to use lowercase HTML tags and has to be valid XML (so tags without a corresponding closing tag have to be self-closing in XHTML)
01:37:20 <kmc> Bike: TIL :(
01:37:51 <Bike> i dunno, i feel a bit more lukewarm about case insensitivity after thinking about other scripts
01:38:28 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I know, no CSS or anything like that; It is what I wanted (some other people also wanted an "unstyled" skin, like that, perhaps), which is just ultra-minimal with no CSS, JavaScripts, section-edit links, edit toolbars, etc; only plain.
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01:40:20 <zzo38> Bike: Can you be more specific please?
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01:41:59 <Bike> specific about what.
01:42:45 <Bike> anyway html doesn't really specify how to be displayed does it
01:43:11 <zzo38> Correct; it doesn't specify. It is up to the client to display it.
01:43:22 <zzo38> I meant specific about lukewarm about case insensitivity after thinking about other scripts.
01:43:49 <Bike> Oh, just that it doesn't always seem clear how multiple characters "share a case" across languages
01:45:13 <zzo38> Well, case-insensitivity is specific to the language/alphabets/character-sets you are using.
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02:11:39 <Bike> https://github.com/divarvel/phpz
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02:26:47 <shachaf> y'all're lucky you're not in #haskell right now
02:27:30 <kmc> what's going down
02:27:34 <kmc> morpheus is fighting neo?
02:27:46 <Bike> it's high noon and the sheriff ain't got his gun
02:28:33 <kmc> "Who's the commanding officer here?" "Ain't you?"
02:28:37 <Bike> oh hey it's ralith
02:28:47 <shachaf> oh no are you reading the logs
02:28:56 <shachaf> I'm just being annoying in there now.
02:29:00 <Bike> "roshan: JS is usually faster than Python" yeah i'm done
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02:30:32 <kmc> Bike: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7xjjevoeE1rn95k2o1_250.gif
02:31:14 <Bike> only the dead shall know peace from this evil
02:33:17 <Bike> anyway you guys should convince sw2wolf to use xmonad. thanks in advance
02:35:10 <kmc> truly #esoteric is the shitposting subforum of #haskell
02:36:27 <shachaf> Bike: Where do you know sw2wolf from?
02:36:32 <shachaf> kmc: why don't you appreciate my puns.........
02:37:07 <Bike> #lisp, he asks for people to debug everything in broken english
02:37:21 <shachaf> wow that sounds like #haskell
02:37:24 <shachaf> are you sure #lisp isn't #haskel
02:40:10 <kmc> @quote ubuntu.freebsd
02:40:10 <lambdabot> NIXDAEMON-COOL says: how to uncompile make into java gcc 3.3 under ubuntu freebsd ??
02:40:24 <Bike> has putin ever been asked that
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02:52:31 <Bike> what does "strongly typed" mean
02:53:25 <shachaf> oerjan: /kick Bike plz thx
02:54:41 <Bike> but seriously i'm 80% sure it's meaningless so I'm wondering if anyone thinks differently
02:54:45 <kmc> have at thee, knave!
02:54:47 <Bike> is this "a recurring #haskell thing" perchance
02:55:07 <kmc> i'm just gonna drop this here http://cdsmith.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/an-old-article-i-wrote/
02:55:09 <shachaf> alt. it means whatever you want it to mean
02:55:13 <kmc> shachaf: 'like LISP'
02:55:18 <Jafet> It's 80% meaningless
02:55:25 <shachaf> alt. it means whatever makes the person you're talking to look stupid
02:55:38 <oerjan> Bike: it's like "stringly typed" but with steel cable hth
02:56:01 <Bike> "Strong typing: A type system that I like and feel comfortable with" okay the problem here is that the other half of the conversation is supporting weak typing, as in, saying they like "weak typing"
02:56:20 <shachaf> no some people say strong typing is bad
02:56:42 <shachaf> weak types for the weak minded
02:56:52 <Jafet> Is strong bad typing?
02:57:08 <Bike> Wow, this says static typing and dynamic typing are orthogonal. I love you, article.
02:57:08 <shachaf> what if you support both strong and weak typing at once
02:57:10 <kmc> <STRONG> typing
02:57:12 <oerjan> Bike: well weak types are types that know their place and don't get in the way of the programmer. duh.
02:57:32 <kmc> itt uppity types
02:57:33 <Bike> don't be a misotypist
02:57:50 <kmc> shachaf: the joke is coming from inside the irc
02:58:30 <shachaf> intermediate representation c
03:00:14 <shachaf> Bike: how bout them leibniz equalities
03:00:16 <kmc> shachaf: wouldn't you love to secure boot GPG directly from UEFI
03:00:32 <Bike> also in this discussion i mentioned unsafeCoerce
03:00:33 <Bike> "This is like looking at a finely chiseled sculpture made from beautiful and purely white wood. Then you realize in horror that the material is actually human bone."
03:00:34 <kmc> slight problem is that GPG's UI is beyond unusuable
03:00:47 <Jafet> Cool intermediate representation C using steroids
03:00:54 <kmc> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary
03:01:04 <Bike> a good ossuary.
03:01:17 <Bike> "id = unsafeCoerce" welp
03:01:25 <kmc> efficiency
03:01:39 <kmc> we don't have time for your types at web scale
03:02:13 <Jafet> kmc: offer it next to Unity
03:02:29 <shachaf> spj called my code "ferociously-unintuitive"
03:02:35 <Bike> "null = not . unsafeCoerce" this is beautiful
03:02:43 <shachaf> That is a ferociously-unintuitive use of 'gcast'! It too me dome while to convince myself that it was right. Though it does indeed work. I'd see (gcast Refl) as the primitive, with 'gcast' itself as a simple derived function.
03:03:01 <kmc> shachaf: you're winner
03:03:01 <lambdabot> roconnor says: unsafeCoerce isn't even safe
03:03:17 <lambdabot> int-e says: What, unsafeCoerce# is kind-preserving? how boring :/
03:03:23 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
03:03:25 <lambdabot> ddarius says: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce
03:03:27 <lambdabot> ddarius says: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce
03:03:28 <lambdabot> shachaf says: isTrue :: Bool -> Bool; isTrue = unsafeCoerce
03:03:31 <lambdabot> ddarius says: isJust :: Maybe a -> Bool; isJust = unsafeCoerce
03:03:46 <Jafet> It might be there; keep trying.
03:03:54 <lambdabot> Jafet says: <Jafet> Wouldn't that violate the laws of thermodynamics? <ski> not if you indent the `|' properly
03:04:03 <Jafet> You made spj too dome while?
03:04:12 <lambdabot> Conor says: So, taking Void to be the colour of the empty bikeshed ...
03:04:51 <Bike> undefined = unsafeCoerce unsafeCoerce
03:05:05 <Bike> wow this has "thanks edwardk" in it
03:06:23 <Bike> some old gist you've probably all seen
03:06:39 <shachaf> do you know who edwardk is
03:06:55 <Bike> His true name is spoken only in whispers.
03:07:04 <shachaf> the k stands for "hi monky" which is a misspelling of monqy
03:08:13 <kmc> I have a C program that I'm pretty sure will kernel panic umlbox but I don't want to try it out on HackEgo because Gregor might murder me
03:08:33 <shachaf> Gregor: You don't mind, right?
03:09:03 <ais523> Bike: that definition of undefined looks unreliable
03:09:49 <ais523> now I'm trying to work out what "fix unsafeCoerce" is
03:09:59 <ais523> an infinite loop, I guess, if its value becomes relevant
03:10:16 <shachaf> So it's just a plain old infinite loop.
03:11:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:11:22 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
03:11:36 <ais523> I think `? HackEgo is somewhat sarcastic
03:11:46 <Bike> unsafeCoerce unsafeCoerce
03:11:48 <Bike> Segmentation fault
03:11:49 <kmc> now the ptracer becomes the ptraced
03:11:52 <Bike> That went well.
03:12:03 <oerjan> i vaguely think `? HackEgo was added by Gregor himself.
03:12:10 <shachaf> kmc: imo `? HackEgo tells you the way
03:12:31 <ais523> `pastlog `learn HackEgo
03:12:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom/hackego
03:12:50 <oerjan> ais523: it cannot be `learn because of the comma
03:12:54 <ais523> kmc: I got two gdb to debug each other, it was great
03:12:58 <ais523> oerjan: right, missed that
03:14:44 <oerjan> ais523: hm the repository has had its history wiped since that was added
03:14:59 <ais523> `pastlog wisdom/HackEgo
03:15:07 <oerjan> `pastelogs wisdom/hackego
03:15:07 <Gregor> kmc: Causing a kernel panic in umlbox would be pretty mundane, really.
03:15:16 <Gregor> In terms of its effect.
03:15:21 <HackEgo> 2011-09-14.txt:23:05:16: <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `wisdom/HackEgo,': No such file or directory
03:15:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31897
03:15:58 <ais523> Gregor: it also wouldn't be visible on IRC, would it?
03:16:07 <ais523> `pastlog You should totally try to hax0r it!
03:16:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31776
03:16:10 <oerjan> ais523: oh it actual was `learn XD
03:16:17 <HackEgo> 2011-09-14.txt:23:04:34: <Gregor> `learn HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
03:16:24 <Gregor> I don't keep the system console.
03:16:34 <kmc> Gregor: yeah
03:16:45 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2011-09-14.txt
03:16:50 <shachaf> Oh, that's true. It starts a new UML every time, doesn't it?
03:16:54 <kmc> potentially if I did a bunch of them it would be obnoxious to the server
03:17:09 <kmc> if there's nothing that kills wedged umlbox-linux processes
03:17:16 <kmc> but, probably there is such a thing as that
03:18:06 <shachaf> All these Crypto Exceptions in mosh are annoying.
03:18:13 <shachaf> And they disappear immediately so I can't even read them.
03:18:23 <Gregor> kmc: Oh, it leaves the uml process running in a borked-up state?
03:21:02 <Bike> kmc: i like how that article is like "lol, performance"
03:21:12 <oerjan> kmc: use it to make a HackEgo daemon imo
03:37:52 -!- kmc has set topic: One for yes, two for no | IGMuYwpjLmMuYwogYy5jCg== | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:39:42 <shachaf> kmc: is that a multiocular c.c
03:41:37 <Fiora> sorry for getting all nervous earlier, I think I'll continue that wargame thing later
03:41:41 <Fiora> thanks for the help
03:42:31 <kmc> i hope we didn't overwhelm you with attempts to help
03:42:32 <kmc> #haskell style
03:42:55 <Fiora> um, maybe a little
03:43:19 <shachaf> Because that would be spoilers.
03:44:40 <shachaf> hey copumpkin did you ever read that story by ted chiang _Liking What You See: A Documentary_
03:45:19 <shachaf> http://www.clarku.edu/welcome/placement/pdf/reading.pdf
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03:46:34 <shachaf> MCALLISTER Keegan can confirm that it's good. Or not good. Depending on what he wants to confirm.
03:46:44 <kmc> i will confirm
03:47:28 <kmc> shachaf has better taste in readings though
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03:48:38 <kmc> yes User Mode Linux is definitely like a dancing bear
03:48:49 <kmc> the miracle is not that the bear dances well, but that he dances at all
03:49:16 <kmc> it's the sort of thing that is obviously possible in principle, and yet obviously not going to work, and yet it does
03:49:26 * kmc thinks most of computers is like that, sometimes
03:50:26 <Bike> dancing is pretty miraculous even for humans imo
03:53:32 <kmc> mine isn't
03:54:28 <Bike> even if you fell flat on your face that would be amazing
03:54:38 <Bike> have you ever thought about the amount of coordination involved in falling on your face
03:55:14 <Bike> It's a lot. Keepin your hands in front of your head and such.
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04:04:39 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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04:37:25 <zzo38> I found out there is a ?action=render in MediaWiki which is close to what I have asked for.
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06:11:54 * pikhq would like to randomly interject by saying that the Japanese MLP translation is well-done.
06:12:19 <coppro> I don't think that qualifies as an interjection
06:12:42 <pikhq> More a statement really.
06:12:58 <olsner> is it better in japanese or english?
06:13:16 <Bike> really only the maltese localization preserves all the subtleties
06:13:31 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:14:07 <shachaf> Bike: So have you learned about rank-2 types yet?
06:14:08 <pikhq> I'm probably not in a position to answer that... I *enjoyed* it more in Japanese, but when I watched it in English I had much less serotonin floating around.
06:14:33 <shachaf> more like serotonout am i right
06:14:42 <olsner> maltese is apparently derived from arabic, with mixed-in italian and sicilian vocabulary
06:18:20 <coppro> pikhq: personal issues?
06:18:50 <pikhq> coppro: Antidepressants are great, man.
06:18:51 <Bike> nah he was just chillin' in a pool filled with neurotransmitters
06:19:43 <olsner> ah, so what you're really saying is that MLP is better on drugs
06:20:33 <pikhq> Yeah, drugs that enhance your ability to derive pleasure from things, enhance the pleasure derived from things.
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07:58:47 <zzo38> OK????!!!?!?!?!?!!!???
07:59:06 <zzo38> Did you do that yet?
08:00:15 <zzo38> If not, it doesn't matter anyways.
08:07:59 <Lumpio-> Did zzo38 finally lose it completely?
08:09:27 <zzo38> Is there a difference? No.
08:09:52 <fizzie> I think that's a "yes".
08:10:02 <zzo38> No, there is not a difference.
08:15:35 <zzo38> I am glad that esolang wiki has not upgraded; the new stuff (even other than removing some skins) is completely crazy!
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08:24:08 <zzo38> I don't know that.
08:24:10 <monqy> pb usually means peanut butter ime
08:24:27 <Lumpio-> I'm surprised you haven't made a Gopher proxy for the wiki already
08:27:27 <fizzie> A generic Gopher plugin for MediaWiki?
08:27:37 <zzo38> I could make some which is read-only; however, the wiki has too much formatting and stuff is needed...
08:27:46 <zzo38> It would work with simpler wikis though.
08:28:32 <fizzie> I'm sure you could persuade elliott "the energetic wiki sysadmin" elliott to install a Gopher plugin.
08:29:56 <zzo38> Would a gopher plugin for esolang wiki be useful in any ways anyways? I don't think so!
08:31:51 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
08:31:53 <zzo38> If there is one, you can say what it is; that way, is more persuasion and more explanation too.
08:35:23 <fizzie> I could not find one with a cursory search.
08:35:32 <fizzie> (Which is maybe slightly surprising?)
08:36:32 <zzo38> What do you expect it to do?
08:38:48 <fizzie> I would think it'd offer at least that read-only access to the wiki in question over the gopher protocol. I don't know what sort of menus it would have.
08:39:34 <zzo38> Possibly the menus for each category, is what menus it would have.
08:39:57 <zzo38> If the pages are written clearly enough, rendering them may not even be needed at all.
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08:40:33 <zzo38> Gopher can serve HTML if needed, but generally you should use plain text if possible, to use on computers and programs and so on that are not HTML.
08:40:56 <fizzie> I think there are some existing tools for rendering MediaWiki markup into a plaintext approximation.
08:43:04 <zzo38> I also think that such a thing would not be a MediaWiki extension, but a separate program (possibly running on the same computer as the MediaWiki, accessing the same database). But, yes, such tools may be helpful for such purpose, I suppose. The file archive on esolang could also be accessed in the same gopher service.
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08:45:32 <fizzie> I don't know anything about MediaWiki extensions. But if they are bits and pieces of PHP, possibly it indeed makes more sense for it to be a separate program using the same database.
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09:05:37 <fizzie> Random thought: 0xfull == 15.
09:07:17 <ais523> fizzie: possible loss of precision in comparison
09:07:33 <ais523> presumably both sides get cast to unsigned long long?
09:08:03 <fizzie> "The usual arithmetic conversions are performed."
09:08:43 <shachaf> ais523: Do you prefer one of Yoneda/CoYoneda?
09:08:58 <ais523> shachaf: no, partly because I don't know what they are
09:09:04 <ais523> they get mentioned here every now and then, though
09:09:04 <fizzie> The unsigned type has a rank greater than or equal of the rank of the signed one, so the 15 gets converted to unsigned long long.
09:09:19 <shachaf> newtype Yoneda f a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall b. (a -> b) -> f b }
09:09:23 <shachaf> data CoYoneda f a = forall x. CoYoneda (f x) (x -> a)
09:09:25 <Fiora> it hasn't yet been converted to 0xDEADBEEF
09:10:55 <fizzie> 0z5HACHAF (it's base-18).
09:10:57 <Fiora> if we 0xCULL a 0xBULL we end up with 0xDEADBEEF? I don't know where I'm going with this
09:11:13 <shachaf> Fiora: imo this is 0xadeadfad
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09:12:23 <lambdabot> *** "ull" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
09:12:23 <lambdabot> n 1: (Norse mythology) one of the Aesir known for his beauty and
09:12:23 <lambdabot> skill with bow and skis; son of Sif and stepson of Thor
09:12:25 <Koen_> oklofok: counting dots was great
09:12:56 <Fiora> shachaf: it must be too late at night because I'm laughing at that XD
09:12:57 <Koen_> this morning's test was kinda like the game simon, except with a number of squares that doubled at every good answer, rather than always four squares
09:13:44 <Koen_> and sequences getting longer and longer AND a very limited time to give an answer
09:14:03 <Koen_> near the end he blew a correct answer because I was one second late :(
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09:15:42 <ThatOtherPersonY> but um... I've never even heard of a Red Screen of Death before
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09:15:53 <zzo38> I didn't hear either.
09:16:00 <zzo38> But now you told me.
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09:17:35 <Koen_> ThatOtherPerson: way to spoil windows!
09:18:22 <fizzie> The color of the blue screen of death is customizable, at least. But maybe this was something else.
09:18:24 <zzo38> I found a chart in Wikipedia of religious % of people who belief evolution is a good explanation of human life on Earth. The most is Buddhist 81%. Unaffiliated is 72%, Jewish is 77%, Catholic is 58%, Jehovah's Witness is 8%. The total population surveyed has 48% in favor of the evolution explanation.
09:22:08 <atriq> Could it have been a cable coming loose?
09:22:14 <shachaf> zzo38: are you belief evolution is a good explanation of human life on Earth
09:22:40 <ThatOtherPerson> I get the feeling that it was one of those things that isn't supposed to happen that isn't supposed to happen.
09:22:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes. I think the theory of evolution is a good theory. It may not be perfect, but that is why corrections are made is new thing are figure out!
09:23:01 <ThatOtherPerson> As opposed to a BSOD, which is one of those things that isn't supposed to happen which is supposed to happen.
09:23:15 <shachaf> `run quote evolution | shuf
09:23:18 <fizzie> The wrong wrong thing and the right wrong thing.
09:23:22 <zzo38> I also never seen red screen of death.
09:23:32 <shachaf> `run quote telescop | shuf
09:23:38 <shachaf> `run quote charcoal | shuf
09:23:40 <HackEgo> 29) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
09:24:45 <fizzie> `run quote $(words) | shuf
09:24:55 <fizzie> One day that will return an output.
09:26:59 <zzo38> Some people say evolution is no good; it is just a theory. Some people say, no; it is a fact. But those people seem to not understand. Evolution *is* a theory (not a fact), but a scientific theory is one that has the scientific method and all that; and it happens to be a very good theory.
09:31:01 <fizzie> `run words | (read w; echo "$w: $(quote $w | shuf -n 1)")
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09:31:23 <fizzie> Dang. (Both two of my in-query tests produced something.)
09:32:58 <AnotherTest> Evolution is a theory that agrees with people's observations. Sometimes I guess we need to make small modifications to that theory to make it fit better. It's probably pretty correct tho.
09:33:20 <fizzie> `run words | (read w; echo "$w: $(quote $w | shuf -n 1)") # NOT GIVING UP
09:33:22 <AnotherTest> at least it's more correct than saying some random creature created the world
09:33:39 <HackEgo> 622) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be \ 691) <ais523> oh right: Frooxius, you wouldn't happen to live in Hexham, would you? <Frooxius> No, sorry. <ais523> phew <Ngevd> How about Finland? <Frooxius> Why would I live there? <fizzie> That's a *very* good question. <fizzie> Why would anyone? \ 955) <bo
09:33:46 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Yes, I agree with you
09:34:26 <zzo38> Are you atheist, agnostic, theist, deist, pantheist, panentheist, etc?
09:34:50 <ais523> `run words | (read w; echo "$w: $(quote $w | shuf -n 1)")
09:35:09 <ais523> I'm not surprised that that one's never been quoted
09:35:16 <fizzie> I got both "game" and "mand" when testing privately.
09:35:34 <fizzie> `run words | (read w; echo "$w: $(quote $w | shuf -n 1)") # natural 20?
09:35:42 <HackEgo> ser: 389) <oklofok> drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink <oklofok> olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has bo
09:35:45 <zzo38> Well, if made up at random it will perhaps sometimes make up real words too that is how they do.
09:36:06 <AnotherTest> zzo38: I think I am atheist. Although I like to call myself realist more
09:36:10 <fizzie> "canposer" is a nice word.
09:36:29 <AnotherTest> If someone could give me great proof that God exists, I would probably check it out
09:37:06 <zzo38> There is no proof that God does or does not exist; it isn't that kind of thing. However, do you know ignostic? I am also ignostic, so consider that, too.
09:38:36 <AnotherTest> zzo38: Well, I'm not sure if I understand "ignostic"... but, does it mean that a God if well defined might be possible?
09:38:48 <AnotherTest> Although there is no clear definition of God?
09:39:47 <zzo38> I do not believe in a personal God, in a anthropomorphic God, in a "sky fairy" God, in a God that directly created the world in a few days or whatever, etc. However, I do believe in God (but not necessarily what you mean by "God").
09:40:20 <zzo38> AnotherTest: How would I know?
09:40:52 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/MTIG that's probably not good.
09:41:07 <AnotherTest> Well, I do not believe in the kind of God that created the universe because that seems like a contradiction to me
09:41:10 <Taneb> I have now got 5 stars on all set-list songs on Guitar Hero 3
09:41:45 <AnotherTest> although if someone could proof there was such a god / show observations that point in that direction, I would reconsider
09:42:03 <AnotherTest> But currently, it seems pretty much impossible
09:42:29 <AnotherTest> zzo38: Then in what kind of god do you believe?
09:43:08 <fizzie> Taneb: How many stars are there?
09:43:33 <zzo38> I believe that the universe is part of God, and that you could say God created everything but it would be extremely indirect!
09:43:44 <fizzie> Taneb: I was under the impression that it had some sort of difficulty levels.
09:44:05 <zzo38> AnotherTest: I do not think assigning qualities such as "lazy" and so on to God is meaningful, unless perhaps you mean lazy evaluation.
09:44:07 <AnotherTest> zzo38: So you believe in some sort of multi-verse?
09:44:24 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Yes. However, that too, must be part of God.
09:44:45 <AnotherTest> Hm. Seems a little unending-recursive to me
09:45:47 <Taneb> Now to start on the bonus songs
09:47:32 <AnotherTest> zzo38: what if we're actually in the matrix?
09:48:04 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Then what is the matrix in?
09:49:10 <zzo38> OK. I don't believe we are in the matrix, but of course I don't know; for the sake of the argument I will call it reasonable.
09:49:38 <Taneb> I don't think it makes much difference
09:50:41 <zzo38> It doesn't change what God is, though, in what I mean by that. In what you mean by that, it might, though.
09:51:20 <zzo38> I notice that in a statement "God exists" not only is it not entirely clear what "God" means but also it is not known what "exists" means in this context, either.
09:51:40 <AnotherTest> zzo38: What about the theory where ais523, who came from the year 523 (I have reason to suspect ais523 is actually pope Hormisdas), and then created the matrix where he put us all in?
09:52:26 <zzo38> AnotherTest: I don't think that is likely or reasonable, but it doesn't change it anyways.
09:53:23 <AnotherTest> What if there does not exist a supernatural creature? That's what I like to believe.
09:53:45 <zzo38> I do not mean by "God", some kind of supernatural creature.
09:55:11 <zzo38> No! Physical things are in the universe, the universe is in (maybe) some multiverse, is in ..., is in mathematics, is in ... [infinitely much, possibly?], is in God
09:55:41 <zzo38> Therefore, God is not in spacetime, so it doesn't make sense to say what comes before God, nor what comes after God.
09:56:55 <AnotherTest> Don't you mean: mathematics can be used to describe the universe
09:57:21 <zzo38> I do think I made some mistakes there; I didn't really mean all of that literally like I said.
09:57:35 <zzo38> I just meant that it is all a part of God.
09:57:42 <AnotherTest> So actually you're saying God is the universe set
09:58:16 <zzo38> Yes, mathematics can be used to describe the universe.
09:58:22 <AnotherTest> Well, I'd just call it the universal set then
09:58:35 <zzo38> AnotherTest: That is probably the closest concept you have, but it is not precisely what I meant.
09:59:50 <zzo38> But that is describing with words. Not everything you can describe with words!
10:00:29 <AnotherTest> Well, why wouldn't you be able to answer that
10:01:35 <zzo38> That is difficult. I suppose you could say yes, but in other words it is also no; that is what makes it difficult. I also find it difficult to explain why this is.
10:01:52 <zzo38> (And what I mean by this isn't contradictory.)
10:02:33 <zzo38> I also don't mean that I don't know; even though I don't know.
10:03:09 <AnotherTest> that does sound like a contradiction to me
10:03:35 <zzo38> That is not at all what I meant. I simply am unable to explain what I mean.
10:03:40 <AnotherTest> That would either mean contradiction or it would mean something in between
10:04:20 <zzo38> Actually, I can try a little bit, by asking a question: Can you precisely define what you mean by "consciousness" and "free will"?
10:05:30 <AnotherTest> Well I think conscious could be defined by 1. can it do self reflection 2. can it think of the future
10:06:14 <AnotherTest> as for free will, can it make independent decisions (some people think humans can't)
10:06:34 <zzo38> For 1. I suppose yes; for 2. you still need to define "think" though; furthermore, as to the future, that has to do with time, so what future do you mean, specifically?
10:07:36 <AnotherTest> zzo38: can it plan what it's going to do / should do in the future
10:07:45 <AnotherTest> eg. I can plan making a city trip tomorrow
10:07:59 <AnotherTest> I can even imagine how that would be (roughly)
10:08:00 <zzo38> For independent decisions, it means, independent from what? What is there to be independent from?
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10:08:33 <zzo38> And for the future, that is an error because time is really a function of the universe, not directly of God, surely!
10:09:03 <AnotherTest> zzo38: oh right, I forgot that God was a 1 dimensional being
10:09:23 <zzo38> We always think of times as being some sort of "absolute" even though we have theories to know it isn't.
10:09:26 <AnotherTest> because you can never put n dimension into n-1 dimensions?
10:10:18 <zzo38> I did not mean God was a 1 dimensional being, or really a "being". However, in some cases you can put n dimension into n-1 dimensions, I think.
10:11:44 <zzo38> Maybe 0-dimensional would be a better description, but I am unsure.
10:11:45 <AnotherTest> I think if you want to put an n dimension object into n - 1 dimensions you'd have to make a projection of it
10:12:05 <AnotherTest> which means it would become n - 1 dimensional
10:12:49 <zzo38> AnotherTest: That is one way. However, I can also make a one-dimensional chess game which is the same as the two-dimensional chess game.
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10:13:39 <AnotherTest> zzo38: Really? I'm not sure about that. The basic concept is the same, but it isn't exactly the same right?
10:14:00 <AnotherTest> Also, that's definitely not possible for everything
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10:14:18 <AnotherTest> eg. you can't make a non-animated animation
10:14:32 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Yes, I know, it is not possible for everything. But it is possible; you can look it up if you want to!
10:16:40 <zzo38> Spinoza said "Whatsoever is, is in God, and without God nothing can be, or be conceived." [7] "Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner." [8]
10:16:51 <zzo38> (These numbers are footnotes in Wikipedia)
10:17:46 <zzo38> The world is not God, but it is, in a strong sense, "in" God. (Also according to Wikipedia; same paragraph)
10:18:02 <AnotherTest> someone else said "God doesn't exist." I guess
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10:19:01 <zzo38> Yes, probably many people have. Probably many people have said "God exists", too.
10:19:29 <AnotherTest> I think it's just a little unlikely how everything is in some abstract entity known as God
10:19:56 <AnotherTest> I think infinity doesn't exist in practice
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10:21:48 <zzo38> I understand you, perhaps you are correct; you can have your own beliefs. But I think mathematics is a "higher reality" than the universe.
10:22:20 <AnotherTest> Well, as long as people don't use god as an excuse for stuff or reason to do something bad, they can think whatever they want
10:22:46 <AnotherTest> Like "oh let's kill them because gods wants us to"
10:23:29 <zzo38> I do agree with you that using God as an excuse for all this stuff is a bad idea; I am against that kind of stuff as much as you are, probably.
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10:48:06 <mroman> !blsq "122333444455555"F:u[vv^^{1\/?/2\/LG}m[?*++
10:49:45 <AnotherTest> mroman: do you have the pdf for that compression algorithm in English too?
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10:55:02 <mroman> Well. I can write one if you like.
10:58:40 <mroman> I didn't think anybody would be interested in it so I didn't bother with an english one.
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11:16:05 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: You need to use a deplancker.
11:16:40 <fizzie> It's this kind of a spray that removes quantum effects.
11:18:40 <Jafet> Sounds like a very fine spray.
11:25:29 <Gregor> It's made of tiny eyeballs.
11:25:47 <Gregor> GET IT? BECAUSE PEOPLE HONESTLY THINK THAT QUANTUM MECHANICS HAS TO DO WITH OBSERVATION.
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12:37:49 <mroman> AnotherTest: Why are you actually interested, if I may ask.
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12:53:51 <AnotherTest> mroman: I'm always interested in new compression algorithms
12:54:35 <AnotherTest> and I needed to compress text some time ago
12:55:26 <AnotherTest> with just really small texts. I want to see whether you can use this in combination with something like gzip though
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13:12:06 <Koen_> oklofok: I should've trained more with your game
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14:02:26 <Gregor> Recently I've been ordering Coke with various syrup flavor shots, because the little shop in the Purdue CS department gives me that option so why not.
14:02:34 <Gregor> Discovery: Coke with coconut syrup is not a good idea.
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14:08:29 <atriq> tromp_, oerjan, the translation of the Prime sieve for Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download changes only one half of the IO conventions
14:12:38 <boily> Gregor: how come? coconut usually tastes pretty good.
14:13:00 <Gregor> I definitely like coconut.
14:13:03 <Gregor> ... but not with Coke.
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14:14:16 <tromp_> atriq: right; because primes usees only the output half. it ignores input:)
14:15:13 <atriq> I completely misunderstood what the output was trying to be
14:17:01 <tromp_> i'th char is '1' (ascii 49) iff i is prime
14:17:10 <AnotherTest> What if I brought a bot in that always replied to what fungot said with fungot in the message
14:17:11 <fungot> AnotherTest: went to bed). i have used such a device is a wacom fnord).
14:17:12 <tromp_> otherwise '0' (ascii 48)
14:18:19 <atriq> Until fizzie made it not
14:22:25 <elliott> it would start a conversation for a few lines
14:22:27 <fungot> AnotherTest: s location sucks.)"
14:22:53 <atriq> elliott, what if AnotherTest's bot had a delayer built in?
14:25:36 <atriq> there is a house in new fungot
14:25:37 <fungot> atriq: or the compiler could fnord the machine code requirement, but we need a fnord to use ( fnord function expression*) and ( min)
14:25:41 <atriq> they call the fungot fungot
14:25:41 <fungot> atriq: i wrote an article about that. couldn't have been ' development.' ' a.
14:25:48 <atriq> it's been the ruin of many fungot
14:25:48 <fungot> atriq: i dunno why this is happening
14:25:54 <atriq> and fungot knew was one
14:25:55 <fungot> atriq: ' lo fnord :p.) and humorous, though.
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14:26:20 <lambdabot> Ngevd: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:26:20 <fungot> Ngevd: or the files? sockets? last time i had problem with it
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14:26:28 <fungot> atriq: yet more evidence that catfive is at least memorable. when i use syntax-case i can no longer face the torment
14:26:34 <atriq> elliott, what if it changed nicks
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14:27:48 <AnotherTest> Does fungot base some part of its messages on what's being said? Or just totally random generated text?
14:27:48 <fungot> AnotherTest: i think. i mean when i say you don't want infix function calls.
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14:31:07 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: says mikrobitti but doesn't mention how one'd get the number of
14:32:02 <ThatOtherPerson> fungot: Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put!
14:32:02 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: but unload: pop *top fnord if possible from the relevant stacks of stacks of function pointers
14:32:23 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: the language list
14:40:32 <atriq> ThatOtherPerson, it uses fnord as "I didn't get enough examples of this word so I didn't bother remembering it"
14:43:18 <atriq> Don't type `list, especially in-channel
14:43:24 -!- variable has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
14:43:25 <atriq> It'll annoy a bunch of people
14:43:51 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
14:44:13 <atriq> You mayswell type it know, ThatOtherPerson
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14:47:33 <atriq> I wonder how hard it'd be to play dwarf fortress via ssh
14:48:08 <boily> atriq: probably not hard, if I compare that to my experience with crawl.
14:50:48 <atriq> Hey, what's the font Dwarf Fortress uses in its graphical interface?
14:51:57 <boily> a reproduction of CP437 from the elder days.
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14:52:03 <boily> probably fixedsys or something.
14:53:13 <boily> but then, you have stuff like this, confusing the matter: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Tileset_repository
14:58:04 <kmc> wow i missed some deep philosophy
14:59:14 <metasepia> CYUL 031400Z 26021G31KT 30SM OVC200 M03/M13 A2997 RMK CI8 CF TR SLP150
15:01:43 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
15:04:32 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:10:28 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
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15:25:45 <kmc> ~metar KBOS
15:25:45 <metasepia> KBOS 031454Z 27019G27KT 10SM FEW050 SCT250 03/M13 A2997 RMK AO2 PK WND 27031/1405 SLP149 T00331133 57010
15:27:32 <Koen_> how did deadfish replace Emmental on the front page
15:27:35 <Koen_> how dit that happen
15:28:39 <boily> kmc: windy for you too?
15:31:33 <boily> generic random haskell question: what is Traversable?
15:31:48 <atriq> It's a fun thing of fun
15:32:00 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Traversable t) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
15:32:05 <atriq> That's the core of it
15:32:23 <atriq> It's something you can map an applicative action over and collect the effects, basically
15:33:36 <boily> ~eval traverse Just [1, 2, 3]
15:33:40 <boily> ~eval traverse Just [1, 2, 3]
15:33:53 <elliott> Koen_: an administrator waved a magic wand
15:34:43 <boily> ~eval traverse (\x -> if even x then Just x else Nothing) [1..4]
15:35:31 <atriq> ~eval traverse (\x -> (Sum x, x `div` 2)) [1..4]
15:36:07 <boily> I think I'm beginning to be illuminated.
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15:36:37 <atriq> ~eval traverse (show x, x) [1..4]
15:36:37 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: `x'Not in scope: `x'
15:36:45 <atriq> ~eval traverse (\x -> show x, x) [1..4]
15:36:51 <atriq> ~eval traverse (\x -> (show x, x)) [1..4]
15:37:31 * boily puts on his glasses of +5 protection from radiance
15:38:29 <oklofok> Koen_: why should you have trained more? are you being tested for astronautship or something?
15:38:33 <atriq> ~eval traverse (\x -> [x, x + 1, x + 2]) (Just 4)
15:38:40 <atriq> ~eval traverse (\x -> [x, x + 1, x + 2]) [1..3]
15:38:40 <metasepia> [[1,2,3],[1,2,4],[1,2,5],[1,3,3],[1,3,4],[1,3,5],[1,4,3],[1,4,4],[1,4,5],[2,2,3],[2,2,4],[2,2,5],[2,3,3],[2,3,4],[2,3,5],[2,4,3],[2,4,4],[2,4,5],[3,2,3],[3,2,4],[3,2,5],[3,3,3],[3,3,4],[3,3,5],[3,4,3],[3,4,4],[3,4,5]]
15:38:44 <oklofok> actually i think you mentioned what these tests are about but i have no idea
15:39:16 <atriq> oklofok, a computer science school that some rich guy is paying for
15:41:04 <oklofok> i'd love a school that teaches these sorts of important skills instead of just testing your ability in them and then teaching you something else
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15:41:33 <oklofok> when i get rich there's gonna be such a school
15:42:11 <oklofok> Koen_'s ability to remember sequences and make pictures out of triangles are being tested
15:44:47 <atriq> ...Martin Freeman will be in all three of the Blood and Ice Cream trilogy
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15:56:40 <mroman> AnotherTest: https://github.com/FMNSSun/noe/raw/master/noe_en.pdf
15:56:45 <mroman> ^- is that good enough?
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15:58:33 <mroman> there are some typos probably :)
15:58:55 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:59:16 <mroman> and I probably should mention the parameters I used :)
16:04:03 -!- ineiros has joined.
16:09:11 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:09:30 <mroman> it now includes also some calculations ;)
16:28:51 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Botloops are kind of a channel tradition, but usually (well, I don't have hard stats on this) they're been done using vaguely quine-like tools. There's one really short one in Underload.
16:28:59 <fizzie> (Though regular chat-loops have happened too.)
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16:30:34 <fizzie> Botloops of the first kind are still possible with fungot; it only has the "only reply up to four times consecutively to the same bot" rule for chat, not ^commands. But it also has an ignore list of known bots.
16:30:34 <fungot> fizzie: writing out memoized versions of the program than it's formatting
16:30:41 -!- copumpkin has joined.
16:30:46 <fizzie> (One day I'll adopt the Gregor solution™.)
16:31:17 <fizzie> (That's prefixing every line of output with a zero-width space so it doesn't trigger commands that are triggered with a prefix.)
16:31:20 <elliott> gregor solution is worst solution
16:31:35 <Gregor> fizzie: Actually I only prefix lines that don't match /^[A-Za-z0-9]/
16:32:06 <fizzie> Gregor: That's even fancier.
16:32:25 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|jconn)!
16:32:39 <Gregor> elliott: Don't you mean that your new bot prefix is zero-width space?
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16:44:18 <mroman> AnotherTest: The algorithm can be optimised to perform better on longer texts by using prefixes etc. to encode to length of the positions etc. etc.
16:44:29 <mroman> it however doesn't stand a chance against other compression algorithms
16:44:46 <mroman> I therefore did not describe that.
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17:02:54 <olsner> elliott: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15792934/how-is-merge-and-split-not-in-scope-haskell
17:04:39 <Bike> haskell is so confusing
17:05:55 <boily> as a professional expert confusion consultant, I concur.
17:06:59 <elliott> huh, iain m banks is dying.
17:07:38 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:08:01 <tromp_> methinks a language that avoids confusion altogether can't beall that great
17:08:08 -!- copumpkin has joined.
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17:17:04 <olsner> maybe the best language is one that causes the most possible amount of confusion
17:17:48 <boily> which means that java is pretty poor, but C++ is excellent?
17:19:49 <olsner> there is something to be said for deceptive simplicity though - and I think C++ often seems close to as confusing as it is
17:20:00 <tromp_> it's only goof if the confusion can be overcome and lead to enlightenment
17:20:38 <boily> therefore, the best language out there is lisp.
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17:40:39 <mroman> You meant to say Smalltalk.
17:43:03 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
17:44:25 <Bike> no, i am spartacus
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17:52:56 <Gregor> I'm making a note here: Huge success.
17:56:51 <atriq> It's hard to understate my satisfaction
17:58:29 <Gregor> atriq: I was considering saying that it was hard to overstate my dissatisfaction.
17:58:34 <Gregor> But I was too dissatisfied.
17:58:39 <Gregor> Thank you for doing what you must.
17:59:22 <boily> I exist, therefore I Can-adian.
18:00:06 <atriq> I or elliott exist.
18:00:11 <atriq> elliott does not exist.
18:01:06 <Bike> did that just happen
18:03:04 <atriq> We are not the knights who say ni
18:03:31 -!- monqy has joined.
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18:04:34 <Bike> somebody make an h2g2 joke so i can flop around in shame
18:06:29 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:06:50 <elliott> wait where is the h2g2 joke
18:07:50 <elliott> the mattress planet. AM I HELPING
18:07:57 * Bike flops all over elliott
18:08:04 <monqy> were you around yesterday when Koen_ told us all about the 42 institute of computer science and horrible nerd culture
18:08:32 <Bike> you're right i'll have to flop all over him too
18:08:36 <monqy> is that a yes or a yeesh
18:08:51 <elliott> monqy: oh boy what did i miss
18:09:03 <monqy> i guess i forgot to tell you to check the logs
18:09:16 <olsner> "In Finland we have a saying: ‘Pitäkää tunkkinne’. It means: I fucking tried to pay for this, but your service only promotes piracy through rather expensive pricing, shitty image quality — and, well, unfortunately also your programs are unnecessarily late."
18:09:20 <monqy> i liked h2g2 when i read it!! i read it a lot of times i own the complete edition with all the books it's big and....blue?
18:09:21 <Bike> i like monty python and portal too
18:09:29 <olsner> ... finnish is quite terse
18:09:33 <elliott> monqy: ye i own a combined one too (possibly the same one? i dont think its blue)
18:09:40 <monqy> well there are 2 combined ones
18:09:43 <monqy> one is green and one is blue
18:09:44 <Bike> The one with the grinning circle on the cover?
18:09:51 <Bike> That's the one I've got.
18:09:51 <monqy> both have a grinning circle
18:09:52 <elliott> ok you know more about combined h2g2 editions than me monqy
18:10:04 <Bike> the grinning circle is green?
18:10:12 <monqy> the grinning circle can also be blue
18:10:23 <Bike> ok well i have the green circle one
18:10:28 <monqy> i have to find my copy then i can tell you all about how it's exactly the same except it's blue and has another book in it
18:10:45 <Bike> mine has the uh, young zaphod gets stoned, or whatever it's called
18:10:47 <elliott> i actually don't mind the tired h2g2 references unless they're really really tired like 42 b/c it's just nice to see it
18:12:39 <monqy> unfortunately the only reference anyone can fucking bother with is 42 soooooooooooooooo
18:13:06 <elliott> monqy: um there's also almost but not entirely unlike X
18:13:09 <Bike> elliott: the koen Thing in question is http://www.42.fr just so you know
18:13:23 <elliott> hanging in the air the way bricks don't
18:13:27 <Bike> something about whales?
18:13:30 <Bike> oh or the drink
18:13:37 <Bike> getting smashed in with a golden brick or whatever?
18:13:52 <elliott> there's also MarvinPA [laugh track]
18:14:02 <elliott> (rest of the channel that isnt monqy: ignore above line)
18:14:44 <elliott> Bike: what the heckers is this
18:15:18 <Bike> some french internet guy doing a learny thing
18:15:20 <monqy> uuuuugh i forget where i put it ~all those years ago~
18:15:35 <Bike> filled with Nerd Jokes apparently
18:16:14 <kmc> yeah it's not that nerds like bad things, it's that we like good things and run them into the fucking ground
18:16:26 <kmc> although I may be just as guilty of this as anyone else
18:16:40 <metasepia> Forty-two is a 1945 clone which can be scripted in Guile (GPLv3, Games).
18:16:57 <boily> ~duck answer to universe
18:16:58 <kmc> elliott: do you remember when the word "grok" was actually a useful neologism and not just a pretentious synonym for "know"
18:17:11 <Bike> what did it mean
18:17:12 <kmc> well probably not because it was like 10 years before either of us was born but,
18:17:24 * Bike stopped reading that book once!
18:17:30 <atriq> (kmc is about the same age as elliott?)
18:17:31 <kmc> 'Grok means to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed—to merge, blend, intermarry, lose identity in group experience. It means almost everything that we mean by religion, philosophy, and science—and it means as little to us (because of our Earthling assumptions) as color means to a blind man.'
18:17:33 <elliott> I don't mind grok that much idk
18:17:36 <kmc> no i'm older
18:17:39 <kmc> elliott: i see it a lot
18:17:47 <kmc> it's a job posting cliché, almost as much as ninja rockstar
18:17:47 <metasepia> grok definition: to understand profoundly and intuitively.
18:17:56 <Bike> yeah that just sounds like "know really well" to me idk
18:18:08 <atriq> ...I've been using "grok" to mean "come to understand"
18:18:16 <elliott> kmc is like twice as old as me or something
18:18:28 <kmc> job postings are largely about companies signalling that they're cool and integrated with 'nerd culture'
18:18:42 <Bike> maybe if i like actually read Strange
18:18:49 <kmc> i didn't read it either
18:18:49 <Bike> have any of you done that? kmc?
18:19:02 <atriq> kmc is almost as old as I've been mistaken to be
18:19:15 <olsner> that kind of job posting is usually an instant disqualification
18:19:23 <atriq> Saying that, I've been to a pub and ordered alcohol wearing a fake beard
18:19:33 <kmc> how old are you actually atriq
18:19:43 <atriq> Old enough to legally drink
18:19:44 <olsner> and I think using "grok" in one of those is completely different from using grok in almost any other circumstance
18:19:47 <boily> 18 and 25... noted.
18:20:02 <kmc> gah i'm old
18:20:08 <atriq> boily, I do announce my birthday when it comes round
18:20:15 <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun
18:20:35 <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
18:20:46 <Bike> COMBINING_WALL_ABOVE
18:20:47 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
18:20:47 <kmc> one day i may even be 42 years old
18:20:52 <HackEgo> 1007) <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
18:20:58 <elliott> maybe i should include the rest
18:21:05 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
18:21:08 <Bike> the rest is just lyrics
18:21:10 <kmc> nah then it's just embarssing
18:21:16 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
18:21:23 <HackEgo> 1007) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
18:21:25 <kmc> now i'm embarassed
18:21:27 <kmc> look what you've done el
18:21:35 <Bike> i've got a bike, you can ride it if you like
18:21:43 <atriq> `logs <atriq> * cigar
18:21:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
18:21:49 <atriq> `pastlogs <atriq> * cigar
18:21:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
18:21:51 <olsner> hmm, I don't think I've realized that song has lyrics before
18:21:54 <atriq> `pastlog <atriq> * cigar
18:21:56 <ThatOtherPerson> 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42 42
18:22:02 <kmc> have a cigar?
18:22:06 <Bike> person could you just like
18:22:20 <kmc> BUT WHO WAS PERSON
18:22:21 <elliott> i was mentally ignoring him
18:22:25 <atriq> kmc, I don't any more
18:22:30 <Bike> yeah me too but it's getting long now
18:22:40 <kmc> > let fib n = 42 in map fib [1..]
18:22:41 <elliott> like i don't think i even saw the first one?
18:23:17 <atriq> Trivia: I have a cousin who is just like me, except Australian and somehow less awesome.
18:24:06 <boily> we're at 1007 quotes?
18:24:58 <Bike> > let fib n = case n of {0 -> [42]; 1 -> [42]; n -> fib (n - 1) ++ fib (n - 2)} in fib 42
18:25:34 <HackEgo> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
18:25:34 <atriq> ThatOtherPerson, it's positively correlated
18:25:37 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: presumably non-inversely
18:25:42 <elliott> or it wouldn't be "somehow"
18:25:52 <HackEgo> 999) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
18:26:18 <elliott> domain name system surrounded by two pink floyd guitar solos
18:26:27 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
18:26:28 <HackEgo> 999) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫ \ 1007) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guita
18:26:30 <boily> kmc: you've become a little bit too melodious than socially acceptable lately. anything happened in your life?
18:26:38 <kmc> not really
18:27:00 <atriq> ThatOtherPerson, you came after itidus20.
18:27:08 <atriq> He was an awesome Australian
18:27:13 <HackEgo> 405) <itidus20> to assume that someone can be described by a rule without exception... is to assume they are omnipotent <oklopol> for instance stones are omnipotent, as they don't do anything, without exception \ 426) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly \ 427) <monqy> itidus20: i s
18:27:31 <olsner> hmm, what happened to itidus?
18:27:42 <atriq> olsner, had a row with Phantom_Hoover or something
18:28:41 <HackEgo> 427) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him.
18:30:13 <HackEgo> 42) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
18:30:35 <HackEgo> 125) <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 157) [spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher. \ 171) <Gregor> "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to exclude pornography, which is
18:36:25 <HackEgo> 93) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf \ 113) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it \ 125) <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 217) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it
18:37:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
18:37:31 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> roc
18:38:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes
18:39:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18531
18:41:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" ]; then quote "$1"; else allquotes; fi | paste
18:42:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31267
18:44:29 <HackEgo> 959) <Taneb> I'm a story about the prohibition of chocolate
18:44:40 <atriq> Trivia: that made perfect sense in my head
18:44:46 <atriq> And I still know what I was on about
18:46:46 <HackEgo> 940) <olsner> boily: the man eating chicken is just a normal man, it's quite common to eat chicken in some parts of the world \ 941) <elliott> ~eval 1+2 <cuttlefish> Error (127): <elliott> this is a great bot boily i love it \ 950) <boily> not only there is no God, but try to find an APL keyboard on Sunday. \ 953) <boily> ais523: I'm not sure my
18:47:52 <boily> ok. nothing perverted and or of a purple tinge happened in my numerous absences. my paranoïa is satisfied.
18:50:31 <HackEgo> 897) <Taneb> That's the problem with Tumblr <Taneb> All the porn titles are taken by non-porn people
18:50:46 <atriq> That's simultaneously very me and very not me
18:52:23 <AnotherTest1> atriq: why did you change your name to atriq again
18:52:45 <atriq> Look who else is in the channel
18:56:57 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:57:19 -!- augur has joined.
18:57:42 <atriq> My computer's on upstairs and set to auto-reconnect
18:58:16 <atriq> I could ssh in and kill the process but there's not much point because I'm heading upstairs in a few minutes
19:01:49 <elliott> atriq: /msg nickserv ghost taneb
19:01:49 -!- SDr has changed nick to sdr|Flu.
19:02:03 <atriq> elliott, wanna see what happens?
19:02:07 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:02:16 <atriq> Now wait a couple of secs
19:02:31 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:03:09 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:03:12 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
19:03:35 -!- atriq has joined.
19:03:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:04:06 <Taneb> My and atriq are having a fight to the death
19:04:44 <oerjan> you should pick up tips from hulk and dr. banner, then
19:05:06 <Taneb> If it's gonna progress it will involve running up and down stairs
19:05:29 <oerjan> Taneb: no gamma rays? boring.
19:05:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
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19:12:13 <shachaf> atriq or two and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends
19:13:07 <oerjan> `run grep -i leijon wisdom/*
19:13:07 <boily> ~duck nepeta leijon
19:13:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/shachaf:shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
19:13:19 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:13:19 <oerjan> shachaf: are you saying you are atriq
19:13:52 <boily> I wouldn't be surprised. no way there are enough people in this world for having a distinct shachaf to an atriq.
19:13:56 <shachaf> oerjan: no, i'm saying that and cosplaying Nepeta Leijoin on weekends is a popular things to do
19:14:13 <shachaf> atriq's puns are not fun enough to be me
19:14:14 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
19:14:49 -!- ThatOtherPerson has changed nick to atriq.
19:14:55 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. (see also: d-modules)
19:15:07 <HackEgo> n!?[5ru/[wBؙ<ܩT[m{q"s_XKШ?YVfF$}q[A-3.."TwK&⒯wE)װan*Wz7LtJ*q\8E6vT[!_.ϲͅ;LG{2UIoP~7b殽*@@#A. f}BgA{qjz0bz"^BtqEAkuL{t/@=FH+=WJf.ޘD^@]߷Q<M
19:15:19 <atriq> Bike: that's actually a special case
19:15:27 <Taneb> `run ? ngevd | paste
19:15:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12841 \ /hackenv/bin/paste: line 12: 299 File size limit exceededcat > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
19:15:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom/ngevd
19:16:20 <atriq> oerjan: Thank you.
19:16:27 <HackEgo> bash: - : invalid option \ Usage:bash [GNU long option] [option] ... \ bash [GNU long option] [option] script-file ... \ GNU long options: \ --debug \ --debugger \ --dump-po-strings \ --dump-strings \ --help \ --init-file \ --login \ --noediting \ --noprofile \ --norc \ --posix \ --protected \ --rcfile \ --restricted \ --verbose \
19:16:37 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 25 Mar 31 19:00 wisdom/ngevd
19:16:38 -!- atriq has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:16:49 <Taneb> ONLY I MAY BE ATRIQ
19:16:51 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
19:17:05 <Bike> i hope you're actually running up and down the stairs
19:17:08 <shachaf> `run rm -f --force wisdom/ngevd --force
19:17:09 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has joined.
19:17:12 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
19:17:29 <atriq> `file wisdom/Ngevd
19:17:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/Ngevd: ERROR: cannot open `wisdom/Ngevd' (No such file or directory)
19:17:55 <shachaf> atriq: did you see what it said
19:18:11 <fizzie> (It now adds a ! at the end if one does not exist.)
19:18:38 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with substructural typing.
19:18:41 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
19:18:59 <atriq> "ngevd more like ein gedi"
19:19:01 <Bike> good ol' maths
19:19:11 <shachaf> atriq: what does that even mean
19:19:41 <Bike> it's friesian for "a butt"
19:20:56 -!- AnotherTest1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:21:30 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
19:21:49 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/Ngevd: No such file or directory
19:22:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: wisdom/ is uniformly lowercase
19:22:19 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/ngevd: No such file or directory
19:22:20 <oerjan> however i believe that file is actually gone.
19:22:22 <shachaf> `run ls wisdom | egrep '[A-Z]'
19:22:24 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
19:22:24 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:22:34 <shachaf> `run ls ./wisdom | egrep '[A-Z]'
19:22:37 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
19:22:49 <shachaf> `run /bin/ls wisdom | egrep '[A-Z]'
19:22:54 <HackEgo> ais523 \ america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bike \ bird \ boily \ bonvenon \ bookwatching \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ c \ cakeprophet \ california \ category \ category-helpdesk \ certainly \ certainty \ claustrophobia \ coffee \ color \ colour \ comedogenic \ comonad \ conspirabiology \
19:22:57 <Bike> it's security, shachaf
19:23:07 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
19:23:13 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/ngevd': No such file or directory
19:23:16 <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't my grep work
19:23:19 <Bike> i like this discussion
19:23:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um you should _really_ take a look at bin/? before doing that
19:23:34 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover doesn't care
19:23:40 <elliott> actually that will be pointless regardless of the argument order.
19:23:50 <Bike> phantom hoover should be a honey badger.
19:24:20 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover is just trying to be annoying as far as i can tell :(
19:24:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it was changed so that things don't blow up completely when someone tries to make a list of all the wisdom entries.
19:26:54 <atriq> Wow, I am very very glad I didn't run out of cash last weekend
19:27:15 <atriq> Otherwise I'd be stuck in Sunderland with only an out of date debit card
19:27:29 <elliott> new heights of comedy have been reached thanks to you
19:27:56 <shachaf> can we have more of that in here
19:29:01 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: shachaf just deleted it. otherwise, i just said above.
19:29:26 <shachaf> oerjan: yes well did you see what it said
19:29:33 <oerjan> `run echo Boo! >wisdom/ngevd
19:29:43 <HackEgo> w:也8U]Y[.S5nO&dGv>8,.s[=BORn%*a"4Hcjmtg! qpoC/J:!~(gJCcU \ 949}yr'C.2O9頓z;H\_X!3\@H^i*Xv]g
19:29:56 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/%3F
19:32:33 <shachaf> `learn ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
19:32:36 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:33:31 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
19:38:43 <Gregor> But... but... no True Scotsman steals hats!
19:38:56 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
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19:47:55 -!- Bike has joined.
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19:54:17 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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19:58:25 <boily> I love my job. I make phone rings.
19:59:38 <Bike> wats a phone ring
20:01:37 <boily> arenas for ritualized combat between phones. what's a ceremony?
20:04:36 <boily> argh... if I can't subtly try to start a covert round of govende...
20:04:45 <metasepia> word definition: something that is said.
20:05:35 <atriq> Any of you guys play board game online?
20:05:39 -!- carado has joined.
20:05:53 <tromp_> i watch board games online
20:06:01 <Bike> I play scrabble online sometimes.
20:06:03 <atriq> http://www.boardgame-online.com/g/game.php?g=cYbq&k=qJX
20:06:48 <atriq> It's an online boardgame
20:06:52 <atriq> Called boardgame online
20:07:20 <boily> isotropic is dead. now there's only that blasphemous infamy left to play dominion online.
20:09:14 <nooodl> "I'm a guy! I have a penis." ........
20:09:51 <Bike> I'm a guy! I have two penises
20:10:02 <nooodl> "I'm not sure what I am." omg this is so blatantly transphobic jesus
20:10:44 <Bike> seriously is this some kind of dating service game
20:11:27 <tromp_> not sure should be two other choices " I have both" " I have neither"
20:11:29 <monqy> is this about that board game online
20:11:48 <ThatOtherPerson> atriq: what is that and what does it have to do with Homestuck
20:11:50 <Bike> oh god what is this even saying help i am not good with computers
20:12:12 <monqy> "I'm a girl! I have boobies." um
20:12:34 <Bike> i have seven pet boobies. they fly around for me
20:12:45 <atriq> ThatOtherPerson, it's an online board game
20:12:55 <atriq> A lot of people playing this instance read Homestuck
20:13:15 * Fiora o_O what is going on
20:13:27 <monqy> im learning about homestuck
20:13:35 <atriq> It's a really weird online board game
20:13:36 <Fiora> what does this have to do with homestuck? @_@
20:13:57 <Bike> fiora has like nine penises, all in hermeneutic jars for later study
20:14:13 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora: I clicked all the buttons and was taken to some chat thingy where people were talking about Homestuck characters
20:14:15 <monqy> but science needs them now
20:14:20 <Bike> hm that should be "hermetic" shouldn't it
20:14:33 -!- Fiora has left ("I don't understand").
20:16:11 * boily unleashes the eldritch (and cyclopean and grotesque) squiddly powers of metasepia towards bike
20:16:45 <boily> “GO FORTH, MY MINION, AND OBLITERATE THAT HEATHEN FROM THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH, ESPECIALLY HEXHAM!”
20:19:49 <oerjan> <boily> Gregor: how come? coconut usually tastes pretty good. <-- this is a public announcement to remind you that Gregor doesn't have a sense of taste hth
20:20:23 <Gregor> oerjan: Oh come on, we're talking about SODA here.
20:22:43 <oerjan> <Bike> hm that should be "hermetic" shouldn't it <-- darn i was so wondering what a hermeneutic jar is
20:22:54 <boily> ~duck hermeneutics
20:22:55 <metasepia> Hermeneutics, broadly, is the art of text interpretation.
20:23:30 <Bike> oerjan: probably like the jar the nag hammadi library was found in.
20:24:32 <kmc> i hope Fiora will come back sometime
20:25:12 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: it helps if it's actually present
20:25:25 <oerjan> shachaf: WHAT DID YOU DO TO LAMBDABOT
20:25:40 <boily> someone found a way to kill lambdabot?
20:26:14 <oerjan> boily: i suspect it's not particularly hard if someone actually tried
20:26:30 <boily> well, my is always there to be readily killed.
20:26:42 -!- ThatOtherPerson has changed nick to my.
20:26:47 <boily> (granted, I have full access to a good C-c aimed at it...)
20:26:58 <oerjan> ~eval unsafeCoerce unsafeCoerce + 2
20:27:12 * boily grabs metasepia from Bike and redirects its fury towards my
20:27:23 <oerjan> boily: that's a _little_ concise for an error message
20:27:35 <boily> I know. sometimes it works, most often not.
20:27:59 <boily> be subjugated in front of its zen-like approach to error handling!
20:28:05 <oerjan> boily: you might join lines, or something
20:28:23 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:28:48 <oerjan> ~eval unsafeCoerce False ++ "hm..."
20:28:49 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: `unsafeCoerce'
20:28:57 <oerjan> that _might_ explain it.
20:29:34 <boily> lucky you! you got a full error message!
20:29:40 <Bike> ~eval Unsafe.Coerce
20:29:41 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: data constructor `Unsafe.Coerce'
20:29:48 <Bike> ~eval import Unsafe.Coerce
20:29:49 <metasepia> Error (1): <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `import'
20:30:05 <Bike> kmc: she's just afk right now
20:30:58 <my> ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval
20:30:59 <metasepia> Error (1): Pattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~eval
20:31:18 <my> ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval
20:31:19 <metasepia> Error (1): Pattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~eval
20:31:27 <my> ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval ~eval
20:31:27 <metasepia> Error (1): Pattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context: ~evalPattern syntax in expression context:
20:31:33 -!- Fiora has joined.
20:31:40 <my> Fiora: hey!
20:31:52 <oerjan> errors and patterns and syntax, oh my!
20:32:24 <nooodl> why is unsafeCoerce in haskell
20:32:38 <my> Fiora: Have you been enlightened by the glorious brightness of Oz yet?
20:32:53 <my> s/Oz/understanding
20:32:54 <Bike> nooodl: it's an implementationy extensiony thing.
20:33:13 <Bike> Everything's in ghc.
20:33:50 <shachaf> nooodl: well where else would you put it
20:33:57 <oerjan> nooodl: so you can convert between things that have the same type/same internal representation but the type system is not powerful enough to prove it
20:34:00 <Bike> there is a standard unsafeLocalState though
20:34:02 <kmc> a canonical use case (and one the GHC docs actually guarantee is safe) is converting between a newtype and underlying type
20:34:21 <kmc> also converting from a type to Any and back to the same type
20:34:27 <kmc> which is used in the implementation of Data.Dynamic
20:34:47 <kmc> but mostly it gets used for weird hax to make libraries faster by knowing way too much about GHC internals
20:34:54 <shachaf> Presumably you could also implement Data.Dynamic with an existential Typeable value?
20:35:14 <nooodl> oerjan's line sounds more interesting!
20:35:26 -!- variable has joined.
20:35:26 -!- variable has quit (Changing host).
20:35:26 -!- variable has joined.
20:35:31 <Bike> oerjan's line and kmc's lines are in fact..... the same
20:35:46 <shachaf> note that unsafeCoerce :: New -> Old may be safe but unsafeCoerce :: f New -> f Old isn't :'(
20:35:53 <boily> there exist a natural transformation between oerjan and kmc.
20:35:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:36:52 <nooodl> it's cute when people put effort in their s/// regexes
20:37:40 <boily> s/effort/logic and sanity/
20:39:45 <nooodl> lambdabot is back in #haskell but not in #esoteric... what a jerkbot
20:40:49 <oerjan> nooodl: maybe it got reset a couple years again
20:42:10 -!- lambdabot has joined.
20:42:44 <elliott> shachaf: you realise lambdabot just takes ages to join every channel right
20:43:10 <nooodl> did you mean "nooodl: "
20:43:11 <shachaf> elliott: hey i trusted oerjan
20:43:48 <kmc> jerkbot 5000
20:44:07 <nooodl> also, how many channels is lambdabot in?
20:44:33 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
20:44:45 -!- augur has joined.
20:45:03 <lambdabot> ##crypto ##freebsd ##logic ##proggit ##unavailable ##villagegreen #agda #codez #darcs #diagrams #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #happs #
20:45:03 <lambdabot> haskell #haskell-blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game #haskell-in-depth #haskell-lens #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.
20:45:03 <lambdabot> dut #haskell.es #haskell.se #haskell.tw #learnanycomputerlanguage #ledger #macosx #macosxdev #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #snapframework #tanuki #teamunix #unicycling #xmonad #yi
20:45:15 <Bike> haskell-freebsd
20:45:18 <shachaf> that command list is outdates
20:45:19 <Bike> gentoo-haskell
20:45:31 <shachaf> lambdabot: what are your real commands
20:45:34 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
20:45:35 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
20:45:35 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
20:45:35 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
20:45:35 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
20:45:36 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
20:45:38 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
20:45:40 <Bike> scannedinavian
20:45:46 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
20:46:37 <boily> uhm, is there only a single global lambdabot instance running, or are they a channel-wise hive conglomerate?
20:46:47 <shachaf> monqy: calling me shcahf is like calling elliott... elitot
20:48:17 <my> lambdabot: You are standing in a great ballroom. It has been lavishly decorated. You now turn into a giant banana split.
20:48:25 -!- my has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
20:48:39 <olsner> boily: there can only be one "lambdabot" per network
20:48:54 <shachaf> olsner: well once upon a time there was lambdabot2
20:49:09 <olsner> that's not lambdabot, that's lambdabot2
20:49:20 <monqy> theres also thutubot!
20:49:52 <shachaf> olsner: hey! lambdabot2 is lambdabot too!
20:50:38 <shachaf> monqy: were you raised in a bus?
20:50:38 <ThatOtherPerson> That may be true, but there's not enough lambdabot to go around.
20:50:49 <monqy> shachaf: is that what elliott told you
20:51:03 <shachaf> what elliott told me is between elliott and me
20:52:19 <boily> ~eval let f c = chr . (if c >= 'a' && c < 'n' then (+13) else (if c >= 'n' && c <= 'z' then (+(-13)) else id)) . ord $ c in map f "yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw"
20:53:55 <lambdabot> Either Left Right Maybe Nothing Just Bool False True Void Not Void Monad Eq Bool
20:54:17 <shachaf> like djinn-env but it doesn't spam the channel
20:54:18 <boily> is there a unicode char for a schoolbus?
20:54:36 <shachaf> 1F68D ONCOMING BUS [<U+1F68D>]
20:56:35 <shachaf> hey elliott there's a unicode codepoint for you
20:57:03 <monqy> is there a unicode codepoint for me
20:57:29 <Bike> COMBINING FRIENDSHIP MONQY ABOVE [<U+2E8FF>]
20:57:32 <shachaf> 1F435 MONKEY FACE [<U+1F435>] is that you
20:57:42 <shachaf> 1F648 SEE-NO-EVIL MONKEY [<U+1F648>]
20:57:42 <shachaf> 1F649 HEAR-NO-EVIL MONKEY [<U+1F649>]
20:57:43 <shachaf> 1F64A SPEAK-NO-EVIL MONKEY [<U+1F64A>]
20:58:08 <monqy> those are pretty good
20:58:15 <nooga> dwarf fortress would make awesome use of that
20:58:29 <shachaf> 033C COMBINING SEAGULL BELOW [̼]
20:58:50 <shachaf> you know shachaf means seagull right Bike
20:59:01 <Bike> oh that's real huh
20:59:29 <boily> a bike, a seagull and a bus walk into an above...
21:01:56 <nooga> ad then nooga kicks in
21:02:16 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:02:41 <shachaf> 1F630 FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH AND COLD SWEAT [<U+1F630>]
21:02:42 <shachaf> 1F631 FACE SCREAMING IN FEAR [<U+1F631>]
21:03:15 <Bike> i wish i had fonts that could actually render anything on the astral plane
21:03:18 <shachaf> 1F70A ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR VINEGAR [<U+1F70A>]
21:03:36 <shachaf> um there's no such plane as "the astral plane"
21:03:46 <Bike> well on any astral plane
21:03:54 <monqy> Unicode Character 'CAT FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY' (U+1F639)
21:03:57 <shachaf> @ask zzo38 are you into alchemy
21:04:13 <shachaf> 1F6AF DO NOT LITTER SYMBOL [<U+1F6AF>]
21:04:15 <shachaf> 1F6AE PUT LITTER IN ITS PLACE SYMBOL [<U+1F6AE>]
21:04:35 <shachaf> 1F625 DISAPPOINTED BUT RELIEVED FACE [<U+1F625>]
21:04:59 <shachaf> 1F4C8 CHART WITH UPWARDS TREND [<U+1F4C8>]
21:05:00 <shachaf> 1F4C9 CHART WITH DOWNWARDS TREND [<U+1F4C9>]
21:05:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:05:02 <Bike> okay i just fell over laughing thanks fizzie
21:05:06 <shachaf> 1F4B9 CHART WITH UPWARDS TREND AND YEN SIGN [<U+1F4B9>]
21:05:21 <shachaf> Those are the only three CHARTs.
21:05:41 <Bike> how nippocentric
21:07:11 <oerjan> <Koen_> how did deadfish replace Emmental on the front page <-- elliott edit the template hth
21:07:17 <fizzie> U+1F47D EXTRATERRESTRIAL ALIEN U+1F47E ALIEN MONSTER I'm tempted to go into the character charts to see the example renderings of these. It sounds like there might be quite a lot of variation.
21:07:25 <fizzie> (I only have a UnicodeData.txt to read.)
21:08:18 <Gregor> fizzie: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f47d/index.htm , http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f47e/index.htm
21:08:26 <shachaf> 1F4D3 NOTEBOOK [<U+1F4D3>]
21:08:26 <shachaf> 1F4D4 NOTEBOOK WITH DECORATIVE COVER [<U+1F4D4>]
21:08:32 <elliott> the decision to render unicode character names in all uppercase was the greatest of the human race
21:08:53 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:09:02 <fizzie> I like the alien monster. It's very monstrous.
21:09:08 <fizzie> Though it looks kinda sad.
21:09:12 <shachaf> isn't that just an octopus or something
21:09:24 <boily> it seems I have a font somewhere that can render the alien face.
21:10:46 <fizzie> U+1F51E NO ONE UNDER EIGHTEEN SYMBOL I parsed this as "(no one) under (eighteen symbol)" and not "(no one under eighteen) symbol".
21:11:02 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic).
21:11:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does that symbol look like?
21:11:28 <fizzie> An 18 in a circle with a \ through it.
21:11:40 <fizzie> I don't know how it signifies the "under" part.
21:11:40 <Vorpal> what about the alien stuff?
21:11:45 <shachaf> Isn't that "no one presently 18"?
21:11:49 <fizzie> Well, Gregor provided links.
21:12:13 <nooodl> U+1F4B8: MONEY WITH WINGS
21:12:18 <nooodl> oh here's my unicode glyph
21:12:18 <fizzie> shachaf: You'd think so, yes. Perhaps it means "under 18" because the \ is under the 18, not on top.
21:12:18 <Vorpal> why the hell did they put this stuff in
21:12:28 <Vorpal> nooodl, example rendering?
21:12:35 <nooodl> the haskell (MONEY WITH WINGS) operator
21:12:38 <nooodl> http://www.charbase.com/images/glyph/128184
21:13:00 <nooodl> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4b8/money_with_wings.png
21:13:00 <Vorpal> oh I read it as "monkey with wings"
21:14:11 <Bike> @let 💸 x y = "enterprise joke"
21:14:12 <lambdabot> Plugin `eval' failed with: Enum.toEnum{Word8}: tag (128184) is outside of bounds (0,255)
21:14:49 <fizzie> In 1F60B FACE SAVOURING DELICIOUS FOOD I don't really see any food being swallowed in the example render -- that's http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f60b/face_savouring_delicious_food.png
21:15:16 <shachaf> 1F612 UNAMUSED FACE [<U+1F612>]
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21:16:37 <fizzie> Truly, Miscellaneous Symbols And Pictographs + Emoticons together has the bests.
21:16:42 -!- augur has joined.
21:17:36 <fizzie> The rest is just SERIOUS BUSINESS stuff like MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL THETA SYMBOL or MUSICAL SYMBOL TEMPUS IMPERFECTUM CUM PROLATIONE IMPERFECTA DIMINUTION-3 or CUNEIFORM SIGN KASKAL OVER KASKAL LAGAB TIMES U OVER LAGAB TIMES U or so on.
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21:18:39 <oerjan> once again boily chickens out
21:20:06 <fizzie> The cuneiform signs make me worry I'm seeing double.
21:20:17 <fizzie> U+1203D CUNEIFORM SIGN ASH OVER ASH OVER ASH CROSSING ASH OVER ASH OVER ASH.
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21:22:28 <fizzie> It's no ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM but it's still a pretty long name.
21:25:45 <shachaf> it's no CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY either
21:25:58 <oerjan> <monqy> is that a yes or a yeesh <-- it's a yesh and you should read mutts some time.
21:26:52 <oerjan> fizzie: i guess the sumerians liked repeating things until they stuck
21:33:08 <oerjan> <monqy> unfortunately the only reference anyone can fucking bother with is 42 soooooooooooooooo <-- Ah. This is obviously some strange usage of the word "only" that I hadn't previously been aware of.
21:34:39 <monqy> its the usage of "only" that means "it's the one that sticks out like a sore thumb except it's not just a sore thumb it's mutilated and smells bad and makes me want to vomit even though it was once a good thumb it had good origins and it makes me sad that it's not a good thumb anymore"
21:36:56 <elliott> monqy: i think u missed oerjan joke
21:37:54 <monqy> i dont remember h2g2 well enough to pick up most ref.s but i had a vague feeling it might be one just because tyhatd be a dang obvious joke
21:37:57 <monqy> if thats what youre getting at
21:38:00 <monqy> idk if it is one tho
21:38:24 <elliott> have you not noticed all of oerjan's jokes are obvious & that's why they're great
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21:38:43 <shachaf> i wish everyone was like oerjan
21:38:49 <elliott> i'll rely on fizzie's encyclopedic knowledge of h2g2's text to supply The Originalle
21:39:07 <oerjan> elliott: help i'm failing to google any references in what monqy said about sore thumbs
21:39:26 <oerjan> i'm sure there must be some
21:39:32 <elliott> oerjan: it's ok you'll feel better over time
21:39:44 <monqy> i didnt use a reference to my knowledge it was 1000% original
21:40:03 <oerjan> monqy: wow you should write books
21:40:10 <shachaf> that's a lot of originality
21:41:12 <shachaf> 11:13 <elliott> monqy: um there's also almost but not entirely unlike X
21:41:23 <shachaf> elliott you dropped a word
21:41:34 <monqy> stuff like that i can remember.
21:41:44 <oerjan> <elliott> have you not noticed all of oerjan's jokes are obvious & that's why they're great <-- help i'm not sure whether i should be proud or insulted
21:42:09 <Vorpal> oh so that is why everyone hates my jokes. They are too subtle?
21:42:21 <shachaf> Vorpal: wait you tell jokes?
21:42:30 <oerjan> Vorpal: we'd hate them if we noticed them, maybe?
21:42:46 <elliott> it helps if they're funny, also
21:42:56 <shachaf> elliott: ime it doesn't matter really
21:42:58 <elliott> though oerjan gets by fine without that
21:43:12 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
21:43:13 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, I find him funny at times.
21:43:25 <elliott> oerjan's jokes may be worse than I feared then
21:43:25 <oerjan> I'M PRETTY SURE THAT CROSSED OVER TO INSULT
21:43:47 <Vorpal> monqy, well, nobody can be spot on EVERY time.
21:43:56 <Vorpal> monqy, but perhaps I should say most of the time
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21:45:39 <Vorpal> Speaking of humor, why is it (on a evolutionary level) that humor exists?
21:46:12 <Vorpal> Also, why is watching physics engines in games spaz out so funny?
21:46:55 <Vorpal> elliott, And speaking of games, I assume you have seen the kickstarter to the Planescape: Torment sequel?
21:47:19 <Vorpal> elliott, if you liked Ps:T: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera
21:47:30 <Vorpal> many of the same guys behind it
21:47:58 <Vorpal> just 50 hours to go so..
21:48:19 <elliott> I haven't even played Planescape
21:48:58 <Vorpal> elliott, tell me at least you played Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale?
21:51:18 <Vorpal> elliott, well take a look at the kickstarter to see if you want to back it I guess then
21:51:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well okay, the combat is bad
21:51:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the story however is excellent
21:52:20 <Vorpal> also I should probably call the new kickstarter a spiritual successor rather than a sequel
21:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> kickstarter is the cornerstone of the spiritual successor industry, after all
21:53:43 <Vorpal> there is also that other game, Project Eternity (by Obsidian, the company that made Fallout New Vegas), which is also a spiritual successor to Ps:T
21:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> and of course obsidian have a proven track record of delivering on their promises
21:54:27 <Vorpal> I expect that game to be buggy :P
21:55:15 <Fiora> obsidian is kind of legendary for being forced by publishers to release games before they're ready :/
21:55:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but I can think of several good games that Obsidian made, they just required post-launch patching. The actual game (story & game play) is usually good though. Just buggy on launch.
21:55:49 <Fiora> um, yeah, forced, the publisher conrols the release date
21:56:01 <Fiora> the story of new vegas is pretty amazing. bethesda told them not to do QA, because bethesda would be in charge of QA. and then they didn't do QA
21:56:02 <Vorpal> I enjoyed Fallout New Vegas a hell of a lot more than Fallout 3
21:56:07 <Vorpal> though neither was a bad game
21:56:40 <Fiora> new vegas was pretty wonderful. that and KOTOR 2 are the things I think of when I think of obsidian
21:56:41 <Vorpal> Fallout New Vegas just had a massively more interesting setting & story. Much more interesting missions. More interesting characters.
21:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, my understanding is that obsidian picked a business model where they were contracted to make a game for a set fee
21:57:05 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: the publisher has a lot more control beyond just the price they pay, though
21:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> and then acted completely obliviously to this by totally ignoring their deadlines
21:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean New Vegas wasn't just rough around the edges; the entire save system was fundamentally broken.
21:57:39 <Fiora> ? saving worked okay here
21:58:36 <Phantom_Hoover> (Did you play it at release? And anyway that's immaterial, because for a lot of people it definitely was.)
21:58:43 <Fiora> um, yeah, I played it at release
21:59:02 <Fiora> it was a little buggy but it's not like it was skyrim-buggy
21:59:45 <Vorpal> in short, I expect Project Eternity to be awesome but buggy on launch. Torment: Tides of Numenera is however a bit more unsafe card. It could be good. I would guess that a game will come out of that though, since their previous kickstarter (Wasteland 2) is well along it's development. They said that they are working on two games at a time, so that the pre-production team has something to do when the pre
21:59:46 <Vorpal> vious game is in production.
21:59:55 <Vorpal> which sounds reasonable to me
21:59:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess I'm just extremely suspicious of the narrative that Obsidian's games are all ruined by publishers.
22:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean they've made what, six games with as many publishers? And they've all been unfinished messes?
22:00:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, same here. I did not play Vegas on release, and I did enjoy it a lot when I did play it, which was probably a year or so after release.
22:00:43 <Vorpal> I have the game of the year edition of Vegas.
22:01:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I loved the shit out of NV, though there were still things Bethesda do better.
22:01:14 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: well, publishers being at fault doesn't mean obsidian isn't at fault in any respect, that's not really what I meant, sorry >_<
22:01:39 <Fiora> the best example of a developer totally botching a contract like that though has to be that new Aliens game though :P
22:01:59 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? Like what?
22:02:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I really can't think of anything I liked more in Fallout 3 than Fallout NV
22:03:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Bethesda are actually really good at making environments that are fun to just roam around in.
22:03:16 <Vorpal> hm, not so much invisible walls that I remember, except for the edges of the map obviously
22:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh jesus christ, you missed those? I had to mod them out, they drove me insane.
22:03:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I did play with unofficial patches and so on of course
22:04:00 <Phantom_Hoover> They were at the top of basically every geographical barrier.
22:04:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, I guess I just tried to go around, since climbing over would be wasteful of resources if you role play the game. :P
22:05:19 <Vorpal> after all, if you role play it, or play it on hard enough difficulty, you have to deal with water shortage.
22:05:50 <Vorpal> hm was KOTOR 2 buggy on release? I never played the game.
22:06:03 <Fiora> it was somewhat buggy but there were also like, huge sections of the game uncompleted
22:06:12 <Fiora> with assets there but that got diked out in the final release
22:06:18 <Fiora> I think years later it was completed by fans with an unofficial patch
22:12:03 <fizzie> I got the feeling that Project Eternity was more a spiritual successor to BG (or Infinity Engine games in general) than specifically PS:T.
22:12:52 <fizzie> They also just got the stretch goal of getting the original PS:T lead designer in their team at the Torment/Numenera kickstarter.
22:14:16 <fizzie> And inXile also recently kickstarted Wasteland 2, which could be seen as a kind of a Fallout thing, indirectly.
22:14:41 <fizzie> (I'm quite high up in the backscroll, sorry for potentially repeating things.)
22:15:52 <fizzie> KOTOR II's lead designer is also working for the new Torment.
22:16:12 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I got the feeling that Project Eternity was more a spiritual successor to BG (or Infinity Engine games in general) than specifically PS:T. <-- well yes, true
22:16:28 <fizzie> (I mean, it's the same guy.)
22:17:08 <Vorpal> I do look forward to both Project Eternity and the new Torment.
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22:18:34 <fizzie> The new Torment is so far the only thing I've kicked in the shin^Wstart; other than that I've managed to not get involved with that kind of things.
22:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> I approve of the general idea of Kickstarter but looking too closely makes me annoyed.
22:20:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially after they gave all that money to David "massive jaw" Braben.
22:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And they gave all that other money to Peter Molyneux! People are such sheep.
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22:23:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what was it that Molyneux kickstarted? Trying to remember
22:23:23 <Vorpal> Not "Curiosity" I hope?
22:23:38 <Vorpal> because that was an utter clusterfuck
22:23:54 <elliott> how did that curiosity thing end
22:24:13 <Bike> https://twitter.com/PeterMolydeux
22:24:41 <Bike> "There is actually nothing in the middle of the cube. It just keeps going on forever #April Fools" hope that answers your question
22:25:24 <Vorpal> Bike, was his statement a joke or the game a joke though
22:25:31 <Vorpal> that could be interpreted either way
22:25:42 <Bike> «Sheffield first revealed Gunhouse, a title about a “house made of guns” that has to “defend some orphans from Alien Invaders.”»
22:25:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thanks, didn't even notice
22:26:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Read the rest of the account's tweet's, they're `the best'
22:26:14 <Vorpal> "@PeterMolyneux's tweets are protected.
22:26:15 <Vorpal> Only confirmed followers have access to @PeterMolyneux's Tweets and complete profile. Click the "Follow" button to send a follow request.
22:26:16 <elliott> ok but seriously did anyone get to the bottom
22:26:23 <Vorpal> is that the real guy? I guess not
22:27:00 <Fiora> MolyDeux is a parody account
22:27:02 <Vorpal> It is https://twitter.com/pmolyneux
22:27:02 <Bike> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Curiosity_-_What%27s_Inside_the_Cube%3F_layers
22:27:09 <oerjan> @ask atriq <atriq> Trivia: I have a cousin who is just like me, except Australian and somehow less awesome. <-- they live in one of the other two Hexhams, right?
22:27:11 <Fiora> it started by tweeting a bunch of incredibly silly (molyneux-esque?) game ideas
22:27:22 <Fiora> which eventualy started an actual game jam in which people spend a few days actually making some of the silliest ideas
22:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> My favourite was the driving game where you play as the road.
22:27:45 <elliott> wow this cannot possibly be notable.
22:27:55 <Fiora> http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/167882/Postmortem_What_Would_Molydeux__a_global_game_jam_.php
22:28:49 <fizzie> A while ago I watched a LPy thing of Barkley's Shut Up And Jam: Gaiden, and it was really bizarre.
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22:29:11 <Vorpal> elliott, it is however a LIST. Wikipedia loves LISTS and TABLES.
22:29:24 <Vorpal> Also why am I talking like POKEMON games?
22:30:29 <Bike> "5 minute game where you play an asteroid that is headed towards Earth. Everyone hates you. All you can do is talk, what would you say?"
22:30:56 <nooodl_> Vorpal: i think you mean POKéMON
22:31:02 <Fiora> "A game where you can only progress during 3 random minutes every day. It's up to social media to help people play at the right time"
22:31:28 <Fiora> "I want to make a ps4 game that is just a room with locked door that can only be opened if 1 million users are watching you at the same time" XD
22:31:29 <Bike> "It's up to social media" seems topicable
22:31:37 <shachaf> ONLY YOU CAN SAVE THE DAY, SOCIAL MEDIA!
22:32:01 <Bike> "Imagine if you could control an enemy on the console game your child is playing without them knowing via a smartphone?" remains the best
22:32:43 <nooodl_> wow that's giving me great ideas
22:33:17 <nooodl_> games that pretend to be single-player, but parts of the game are being filled in by someone else... you could really screw with players' minds
22:33:41 <Vorpal> nooodl_, you mean like Journey, but covert?
22:34:38 <nooodl_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(2012_video_game) this?
22:34:53 <Bike> what if the game's difficulty was linked to how many people were dying from wars? players would have to lobby their governments to make the killing stop if they wanted to get past that jump -- look i'm molydeux
22:35:07 <Fiora> "Action game where every time you die you spawn in the same area but 10 seconds in the past. You need to rescue yourself to continue." this... this is aactually amazing
22:35:33 <Vorpal> nooodl_, it is one of those games where the critics start wondering aloud about the line between games and art. Like with Shadow of the Colossus.
22:36:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: It's up to social media | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:36:38 <Vorpal> Fiora, amazing idea, but I'm not sure how well it would actually work
22:37:25 <Fiora> oh wow. there's... actually a game in development doing that
22:37:34 <Fiora> http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/03/23/super-time-force-makes-you-cooperate-with-yourself.aspx
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22:39:47 <olsner> oerjan: is #esoteric a social media?
22:40:47 <coppro> Vorpal: I think you that you are talking like HOMESTUCK, which is the MOST GLORIOUS WEBCOMIC
22:41:16 <Vorpal> coppro, I was thinking of the Pokemon games though
22:42:00 <Vorpal> <Fiora> http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/03/23/super-time-force-makes-you-cooperate-with-yourself.aspx <-- that is one weird trailer at the bottom of the page
22:42:21 <Phantom_Hoover> what happens if you plot number of layers of curiosity uncovered against time
22:43:05 <Bike> Fiora: the game trailer promises it will cause the player to physically harm themselves. that's a good game
22:43:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I guess we would see either how large each layer is, or how many people play it. We couldn't predict how long it would take though, since we don't know the number of layers afaik
22:44:31 <Fiora> antichamber!!!! <3
22:44:45 <Vorpal> it is an awesome game indeed
22:44:55 <Vorpal> very different than other games I played
22:45:50 <Fiora> I just loved how it was like... an open world puzzle game
22:45:52 <Bike> Oh, is it an old engine?
22:45:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I really liked that fake count down timer.
22:45:56 <Fiora> and there were so many ways to solve each problem
22:46:14 <Vorpal> Bike, Unreal 3 iirc, but err, there is non-euclidean geometry
22:46:18 <Fiora> and all the time, when solving a problem, there was that feeling of "oh wow this is totally cheating there's no way I'm supposed to do it this way"
22:46:24 <Bike> Real non-eucl- oh.
22:46:25 <Fiora> but you know they probably intended for you to be able to do it that way
22:46:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well not on screen at any point
22:46:55 <Vorpal> but yes, there are stuff you can walk around for more than 360 degrees without getting back to the same place
22:46:57 <Bike> Fiora: hypothesis: the developers didn't actually put in any solutions for any puzzle, they just assumed you'd abuse the engine into getting through
22:46:59 <Fiora> it was such a wonderful explorey thing
22:47:14 <Fiora> Bike: it was't like, engine abuse, just solutions that felt really hacky
22:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, I did end up having to look up solutions in a couple of places, which really annoyed me.
22:47:27 <Fiora> ... yeah, I did too, in a couple :<
22:47:34 <Vorpal> <Fiora> and all the time, when solving a problem, there was that feeling of "oh wow this is totally cheating there's no way I'm supposed to do it this way" <-- not all the time, but yes, sometimes definitely
22:47:37 <Fiora> it felt doubly worse when they were /so obvious/ in retrospect -_-
22:47:52 <Fiora> like the way to get across that gap labelled "WTF?"
22:47:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, had to look up a solution in one place, forgot what it was now.
22:48:04 <oerjan> olsner: of course not, media is plural
22:48:07 <Fiora> I puzzled over it for ages and the solution was just so dead simple
22:48:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I think they could've made it clearer that rectangles would fill themselves in.
22:48:29 <Fiora> I didn't know at the start of the game that I'd get another cube gun -_-
22:48:36 <Fiora> so I got 'stuck' on the things that needed the green cube gun
22:48:39 <Bike> man it really does look like a shinier Mondo Medicals
22:48:45 <Vorpal> Fiora, which one was the WTF one. I played the game like a couple of days after release, so I forgot what puzzle went where
22:48:48 <olsner> oerjan: social medium then, sounds about right for #esoteric
22:48:57 <Fiora> Vorpal: it was a red gap with the text "WTF?" in it, in red cubes
22:49:07 <Fiora> and it had that gas that stopped you from placing cubes there
22:49:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was it the one where you couldn't place blocks? Or the one where the text was blocks?
22:49:22 <Vorpal> there were like both kinds of gaps
22:49:29 <Fiora> and you couldn't do abusiveness like moving blocks in from outside or moving the text
22:49:33 <Fiora> so it 'seemed' like there was no way across
22:49:45 <Fiora> spoiler:the solution is not to go across at all
22:49:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, in one place I remember placing blocks below the area I couldn't place blocks and doing a "cheating-feeling" solution to get across
22:50:04 <Vorpal> Fiora, oh right, that gap
22:50:10 <Fiora> I think that was it XD
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22:50:33 <elliott> I was hoping that wold just be more spaces
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22:50:53 <Vorpal> elliott, in Antichamber?
22:51:03 <Vorpal> Fiora, I never quite figured out how to properly use the red gun.
22:51:14 <Vorpal> Didn't always act like I wanted
22:51:21 <Fiora> I think it's like, you just sort of use it to pull the blocks around?
22:51:23 <Fiora> it was kind of tricky though
22:51:32 <Fiora> it took a lot of effort to finagle it into doing what I wanted
22:51:46 <Vorpal> it was the pushing out that was the major issue
22:51:58 <Fiora> one thing I learned quickly was you can't always move the blocks in any direction, since you can only move them towards a spot you can point the gun at
22:52:07 <Vorpal> elliott, did you play the game in question?
22:52:18 <Vorpal> Fiora, well yes obviously
22:52:28 <Fiora> so like, if you're pointing to a block on the floor, you can't use the gun to lift the block up unless there's a wall you can point at
22:52:44 <Fiora> it was kind of nonintuitive at least I felt but it was fun
22:53:24 <Vorpal> Fiora, also I had watched TotalBiscuit's video on youtube before buying the game, so I did know a bit of what to expect at the start. In hindsight the game would have been more enjoyable without that, but I never buy a game without reading reviews or watching initial impressions, so...
22:53:34 <Fiora> I went into it totally blind
22:53:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I think the little red line made that easy enough to grasp.
22:53:38 <Vorpal> (obviously, kickstarters are an exception to this)
22:53:50 <Fiora> I think I pretty much went just off the rockpapershotgun review >.>
22:54:03 * Bike loads up an LP
22:54:11 <Bike> lovin' the inspirational messages all over the place
22:54:16 <Vorpal> Fiora, really his video was from PaX the previous year, and didn't cover it all the way up to the first gun even.
22:54:29 <Vorpal> Fiora, it did help with the red/blue stairs though
22:54:44 <Fiora> I got that one pretty quickly, it made me laugh
22:54:50 <Fiora> I loved it when the game just trolled me like that
22:55:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, but it helped me understand the mindset intended for the game
22:55:02 <Fiora> like the place where you kept going in circles and everything was repeating itself
22:55:07 <Fiora> but if you went like around 5 times
22:55:13 <Fiora> ... it led to the exit anyways
22:55:23 <Vorpal> Fiora, that spiraled inwards though
22:55:38 <Fiora> ?? I guess I didn't notice that
22:55:39 <Vorpal> or do you mean the area with green coloured areas?
22:55:56 <Fiora> ummm there was that one too, but I meant the black and white slowly turning corridor
22:56:05 <Fiora> that went in a circle
22:56:06 <Vorpal> Fiora, I assumed you meant the area with <> sign
22:56:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd be interesting to open Antichamber in whatever level editor UE3 has.
22:56:20 <Vorpal> Fiora, that one spiraled.
22:56:36 <Vorpal> Fiora, though not as much as it SHOULD have spiraled to be physically possible
22:57:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, it might be generating the levels on the fly from the perspective of the character in certain situations?
22:57:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, though the clean aesthetics would help with splicing, no shadows to worry about for example.
22:58:32 <Fiora> the splicing was kind of amazing, like, the one where you look up, and the floor disappears
22:58:34 <Bike> ooh, the menu's cool
22:58:35 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I mean there might in places not be a level file as such, that the engine reads in an defines as the geometry. Rather the game code could dynamically construct the geometry visible by the player at any given time.
22:58:35 <Fiora> but in the meantime it changed the room's exit
22:59:09 <Fiora> I loved the puzzles that were about looking somewhere
22:59:16 <Fiora> and just. agh. the game was so fun
22:59:20 <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, it would be a /lot/ of work without a custom-built engine.
22:59:36 <Vorpal> Fiora, those puzzle made me think "how would it physically detect that" though
22:59:43 <Vorpal> but yes, they were kind of cool
22:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, I was a bit narked at the puzzle where you have to look at a circle on the wall and walk backwards though.
22:59:59 <Fiora> I loved that one XD
23:00:04 <Vorpal> Fiora, btw, the thing with the pink cube moving in a slit along walls in certain areas
23:00:08 <Vorpal> what on earth was that about
23:00:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Because those circles were all over the place in earlier sections and they'd never had any significance before.
23:00:14 <Fiora> I think I googled about that later
23:00:19 <Fiora> and the official statement was that they literally did nothing
23:00:30 <Vorpal> Fiora, lol, I was successfully trolled then
23:00:41 <Fiora> you saw how they worked though, right?
23:00:44 <Fiora> they'd move only when you looked at them
23:00:46 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> For one thing, it would be a /lot/ of work without a custom-built engine. <-- true
23:00:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:01:11 <Vorpal> and I moved them all along to the end in each case
23:01:14 <Fiora> ah, so, the pink cubes don't do something -now-, but they might do something in a future update? and they are saved ni the savegame file
23:13:50 <oerjan> Koen_: you entered 5 minutes after everyone went silent hth
23:14:22 <Koen_> they were expecting me of course
23:14:38 <Koen_> I'm just back from a representation of a midsummer night's dream
23:14:48 <Bike> a representation
23:14:58 <Bike> that sounds mysterious and probably fun since it's midsummer
23:14:58 <Koen_> isn't that the proper english word?
23:15:09 <Bike> do you mean a performance?
23:15:12 <elliott> i'm imagining great things
23:15:17 <elliott> like a representation in braille
23:15:23 <elliott> just sort of go and look at it
23:15:29 <oerjan> Koen_: what you think is the proper english word never is hth
23:15:29 <elliott> or maybe a representation of it as music
23:15:36 <elliott> a misdummer night's dream you can smell
23:15:44 <Koen_> yeah that tends to happen a lot
23:15:51 <Bike> if you can't smell a performance of midsummer it's not a very good performance imo
23:15:51 <Koen_> so how about you all go silent for five minutes
23:23:08 <Koen_> I'm just back from a performance of a midsummer night's dream
23:23:39 <elliott> I think you mean a representation
23:24:11 <Bike> the part of hippolyta will be played by this integer
23:25:00 <oerjan> what i want to know is whether it was a _unitary_ representation.
23:25:02 <Koen_> I'm not gonna look it up - I trust you guys!
23:25:16 <Bike> a kind of matrix
23:25:22 <Koen_> does that mean it all takes place in the same place and at the same time
23:25:41 <oerjan> Koen_: no, that's greek drama i think
23:25:46 <elliott> Koen_: ps i wasn't being serious
23:26:01 <Koen_> elliot not being serious? do you expect me to believe that!
23:26:12 <oerjan> elliot is always serious.
23:26:38 <Bike> hm a unitary matrix is a "square root" of "unity", that's neat
23:27:01 <oerjan> Bike: um that's not true.
23:27:24 <Bike> oh no conjugate transpose
23:28:12 <Koen_> btw Hippolyta was played by the same actress as Titania - which kinda makes sense since Hippolyta DOESN'T SAY A WORD IN THE WHOLE DAMN PLAY
23:28:22 <oerjan> it's a normal matrix whose eigenvalues are all on the unit circle.
23:28:57 <Bike> that's pretty cool.
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23:30:34 <oerjan> oh that's listed as point 7 on wikipedia
23:31:44 -!- sivoais has joined.
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23:51:31 <Sgeo> So, I guess an educational excersize for me might be for me to write a class Upcastable child parent where upcast :: child -> parent
23:51:36 <Sgeo> And just start writing instances
23:57:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think i must ban you for trolling hth
23:58:18 <oerjan> that sounds like stereotypically trying to force OO idioms to work in haskell
23:58:32 <oerjan> which is a common newbie error
23:58:35 <Bike> is that really a "cast"
23:58:37 * Sgeo is not doing it with practical intent
00:00:42 <shachaf> oerjan: are you sure you didn't mean ban me for trolling
00:00:47 <shachaf> i did do the dahl.net thing once remember
00:01:10 <shachaf> but imo dont ban me because im too cool to get banned
00:01:57 <oerjan> shachaf: that would be like sentencing a masochist to lashes
00:02:23 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't want to get banned
00:02:51 <oerjan> YOUR REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY WILL GET YOU NOWHERE
00:03:53 <Sgeo> I'm already getting ambiguous type constraints
00:04:15 <Jafet> `run echo 'write a class Upcastable child parent where upcast :: child -> parent' | rainwords
00:04:18 <HackEgo> write a class Upcastable child parent where upcast :: child -> parent
00:04:20 <Bike> imo just upcase = unsafeCoerce
00:04:43 <Jafet> That's how C++ works right
00:05:23 <shachaf> Jafet: in C++ it's unsafeCoerce and a bit of pointer arithmetic
00:05:31 <Sgeo> It's now complaining about overlapping instances
00:05:50 <shachaf> Sgeo: have you considered that you're doing bad things and you should stop
00:06:18 <Sgeo> instance (Upcastable a b, Upcastable b c) => Upcastable a c where
00:06:21 <Sgeo> That's the only bad thing
00:06:26 <shachaf> Sgeo............................
00:07:04 * Sgeo will skip that for now
00:07:27 <Bike> btw sgeo i think i'm going to have beaten you out for farmingdaleness soon
00:07:33 <Bike> this school has a degree program in organic food
00:07:33 <shachaf> Bike: So you know what a lens is, right?
00:07:37 <Jafet> "I tried to write java in haskell, but it wouldn't typecheck"
00:07:45 <Bike> i've heard of lensess
00:08:01 <shachaf> Bike: Here's a lens lens: type Lens s t a b = forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
00:08:19 -!- augur has joined.
00:08:27 <Sgeo> Nothing I'm trying shouldn't typecheck
00:08:32 <Sgeo> I'm not supporting downcasting
00:09:30 <elliott> does Bike know more about Sgeo than instance resolution already
00:09:41 <elliott> Bike: quick, tell me about the open world assumption
00:09:43 <Bike> no i just like laughing at things
00:10:09 <Bike> the open world assumption is that thing which is why you get errors like "No instance for (Num String)" instead of "you can't add strings together douchelord"
00:10:55 <elliott> i mean you could rephrase "No instance for Num String" as "you can't Num Strings douchelord"
00:11:02 <shachaf> Bike: wait you know things about Sgeo?
00:11:03 <Bike> because it's assuming that maybe there could be an instance for Num String, instead of just saying "well there's no way that's possible"
00:11:18 <elliott> you have the basic idea down I give you 7.5/10
00:11:38 <elliott> put in a bit of work and it could be 7.6/10, Bike
00:11:38 <Bike> shachaf: There's also a Farmingdale near the place. It's actually called Farmingdale.
00:12:02 <shachaf> i can't tell if elliott's thing was on purpose or not
00:12:54 <Bike> the open elliott assumption
00:13:08 <Sgeo> I like to think that this gets covariance and contravariance concrete in my head
00:13:31 <shachaf> well it gets some kind of concrete in your head
00:14:13 <oerjan> shachaf: it has to become a brainfuck derivative first
00:14:31 <Sgeo> @pl \f a b -> f (a b)
00:14:32 <shachaf> oerjan: nobody said anything about a brick
00:14:42 <shachaf> or about a brain for that matter
00:15:12 <nooga> i have this new idea for an esoteric programming language
00:15:23 <Bike> based on gyroscopy?
00:15:59 <oerjan> does it have 8 commands?
00:16:01 <nooga> basically it's like brainfuck bit with elliott instead of -
00:16:51 <Bike> this major is literally how to be a farmer. awesome
00:17:47 <elliott> Bike: can you get it from farmingdale
00:18:20 <elliott> Bike: also: what are its poultry science buildings like.
00:18:38 <Bike> no but it's a few miles south of Farmington, Washington
00:19:20 <Sgeo> I think I found a GHC bug.
00:19:44 <shachaf> let's take bets on whether Sgeo found a ghcbug
00:19:56 <Sgeo> Although it's in 7.4.2 so maybe it's well-known and fixed
00:20:36 <Sgeo> Something about irrefutable pattern failed
00:20:40 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/wAuRUq
00:21:03 <elliott> I see ideone upgraded their GHC
00:21:06 <Bike> i like those extensions.
00:21:19 <shachaf> Oh, maybe that is a GHC bug.
00:21:19 <Sgeo> Oh, I should get rid of OverlappingInstances
00:21:33 <Sgeo> It didn't even help the one that was complaining about overlapping whatever
00:21:51 <shachaf> instance (Upcastable c1 p1, Upcastable c2 p2) => (p1 -> c2) -> (c1 -> p2) where
00:22:02 <shachaf> Please note that (->) is not a type class.
00:22:56 <Bike> but what if it was
00:24:07 <Bike> is it the paper about making reals without making rationals
00:25:08 <Bike> sgeo's thing seems like it could have a more comprehensible error, though.
00:25:18 <elliott> yes that's what was fixed in 7.6
00:25:27 <elliott> Bike: no but that paper sounds cool too, link
00:25:32 <elliott> i mean i can think of ways to do it.
00:25:35 <elliott> also it's probably classical and awful.
00:25:40 <Sgeo> Bike, it is a GHC bug. The error is not supposed to be about irrefutable patterns being broken in compiler code
00:25:45 <shachaf> Bike: R is just the power set of N hth
00:25:54 <elliott> (this one is Operational Semantics Using the Partiality Monad by Nils Anders Danielsson.)
00:26:24 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0405454
00:26:44 <shachaf> is he all done with writing fairy tales?
00:27:03 <Bike> it has plenty of category theoryy stuff in it iirc
00:27:11 <Bike> though maybe i'm being confused with how i was reading about adjoints later
00:27:14 <Sgeo> @pl \f c -> uc (f (uc c))
00:27:33 <shachaf> Bike: i heard they were legal in washington now
00:27:39 <Sgeo> @pl \f c -> uc (f (uc1 c))
00:27:45 <Bike> damn straight.
00:27:53 <shachaf> anyway category theory more like bad theory right
00:28:05 <Bike> more like theory that is stupid and dumb
00:28:31 <Bike> "Dairy Cattle Management Laboratory" is a class.
00:28:38 <Sgeo> :t listFromMaybe
00:28:40 <elliott> Bike: wow this looks like a paper I might actually understand.
00:28:40 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `listToMaybe' (imported from Data.Maybe)
00:28:46 <Bike> elliott: weird huh
00:28:57 <elliott> Bike: it's an uncommon occurrence :(
00:28:59 <Bike> :t maybeToList
00:29:16 <Bike> elliott: being dumb and stupid is suffering.
00:29:24 <Bike> > maybeToList (Just 437)
00:29:28 <elliott> also, suffering is stupid and dumb
00:29:40 <elliott> > Foldable.toList (Just 437) -- the true way to write it
00:29:42 <shachaf> dude the real numbers = just the powerset of the natural numbers
00:29:43 <elliott> > F.toList (Just 437) -- the true way to write it
00:29:50 <Bike> good job elliott.
00:29:57 <elliott> shachaf: how are you going to define arithmetic on that nicely exactly
00:30:00 <elliott> > Data.Foldable.toList (Just 437) -- the true way to write it
00:30:02 <Bike> shachaf: That doesn't involve the word "Eudoxus" though.
00:30:19 <Bike> > listToMaybe [437,0]
00:30:21 <shachaf> elliott: don't you know how maths work
00:30:47 <elliott> this guy's email is at lemma-one.com
00:30:51 <elliott> that is a very yellow site.
00:31:06 <elliott> oh that site is maintained by the person who wrote this. I get the feeling this guy might not be a Real Mathematician™
00:31:18 <Bike> hey, hey. ProofPower - a suite of tools for specification and proof in HOL and Z; also the Compliance Tool for specifying and verifying Ada programs.
00:31:21 <Bike> Get on that sgeo.
00:31:25 <Bike> elliott: You mean a crank?
00:31:25 <shachaf> as MCALLISTER Keegan used to say: what's yellow &c
00:31:40 <elliott> Bike: also wait aren't you like a biologist. how do you know about this paper. I am suspicious
00:31:46 <Bike> http://lemma-one.com/email.gif
00:31:52 <shachaf> Bike is a biologist???????????????????????????????????
00:32:02 <Bike> a wannabe biologist
00:32:07 <elliott> Magnitudes are said to be in the same ratio, the first to the second
00:32:07 <elliott> and the third to the fourth, when, if any equimultiples whatever are taken
00:32:07 <elliott> of the first and third, and any equimultiples whatever of the second and
00:32:07 <elliott> fourth, the former equimultiples alike exceed, are alike equal to, or alike
00:32:07 <elliott> fall short of, the latter equimultiples respectively taken in corresponding
00:32:10 <Bike> most people i know are mathers though
00:32:12 <elliott> Euclid. Elements of Geometry. Book V. Definition 5.
00:32:14 <elliott> i forgot how fucking unreadable the Elements are
00:32:47 <Bike> haha yeah i have that God Created the Integers book and the Elements are like "a line is a thing between two points" or whatever and it's like well... okay...
00:33:03 <shachaf> elliott: you think that's unreadable, try it in greek
00:33:21 <Bike> but seriously, I think mathematical biology is Pretty Cool and just like math by itself anyway.
00:33:32 <Bike> maybe i just like reading shit i barley understand. barley understand. barley
00:34:04 <elliott> pretty sure mathematical biology cannot be a true mathematic just going by the name prove me wrong
00:34:21 <shachaf> elliott: is "a mathematic" what "a math" stands for
00:34:23 <Bike> kolmogorov half invented it
00:34:38 <shachaf> ok that's pretty good but who invented the other half
00:34:38 <elliott> shachaf: no, math stands for a spelling error
00:34:46 <shachaf> elliott: not "math", "a math"
00:34:52 <Bike> shachaf: i dunno probably lotka
00:34:53 <shachaf> as in one math, multiple maths
00:35:08 <elliott> kolmogorov was a weird dude. well, probably. I know nothing about him
00:35:17 <Sgeo> I try to use upcast, now it's saying it wants incoherent instances
00:35:20 <Bike> he was gay that's "pretty weird" everybody around me says
00:35:34 <shachaf> Sgeo: someone here is being incoherent
00:35:35 <Bike> also a mega genius so probably crazy.
00:37:02 <shachaf> hey what does kolya stand for
00:37:09 <tromp_> i heard he loved to ski naked:)
00:37:17 <elliott> sequence of integers in which the m-th term, Rm say, gives the number of columns
00:37:19 <elliott> to the left of or in line with the m-th railing in the figure. This sequence Rm will
00:37:20 <Bike> Techniques in semen handling, insemination, and pregnancy detection in cattle.
00:37:30 <elliott> wow such wastefulness, should clearly replace every element with it subtracted from the previous one
00:37:45 <shachaf> I don't quite follow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay
00:37:52 <shachaf> Nikolay or Nikolai is an East Slavic variant of the feminine name Nicola, meaning "Goat Whisperer." It may refer to:
00:38:02 <shachaf> then there's a long list of people named nikolay
00:38:04 <shachaf> Nikolai Aleksandrovich or Nikolay Aleksandrovich (Russian: Николай Александрович), ofter shortened Nicolay or Nicolai without the patronymic Aleksandrovich, is a Russian male given name. It may refer to:
00:38:13 <shachaf> and a long list of people named nikolai aleksandrovich
00:38:21 <shachaf> what's special about the patronym aleksandrovich
00:38:28 <Bike> it's popular i guess
00:39:44 <SirCmpwn> https://gist.github.com/SirCmpwn/57f20df5698a128b4411
00:40:05 <SirCmpwn> elon musk is going to read this as part of a letter that will decide if I am to be hired at spacex
00:40:31 <SirCmpwn> I think my IRC bot is impressive enough to mention (and in line with the kind of problem solving they want to see), but I have to say 'brainfuck' to a recruiter if I mention it
00:40:39 <Bike> Does spacex use wacky verification stuff like NASA
00:40:54 <Bike> I bet you could make some shit up about brainfuck being easy to reason about
00:40:56 <SirCmpwn> what is wacky verification stuff
00:40:58 <shachaf> Sgeo: imo just port it to some derivative with a less offensive name
00:41:09 <shachaf> if you're worried about that
00:41:20 <shachaf> there once was a fish named fred
00:41:28 <shachaf> you'll have to extend it with a mechanism for output (or was it input)
00:42:28 <elliott> Bike: hm I wonder how well this construction goes constructively.
00:42:57 <Bike> Maybe you could set up some rules about where rails can be.
00:43:01 <shachaf> elliott: well it's a construction soooooo ...................
00:43:31 <elliott> Bike: does this paper show e.g. how to define pi and such
00:43:52 <Bike> SirCmpwn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPIN_model_checker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Pathfinder that sort of stuff
00:44:01 <kmc> SPIN is cool
00:44:09 <kmc> i took a class from the main SPIN guy
00:44:46 <Bike> Maybe you could stop being upset.
00:44:51 <Bike> SirCmpwn: re: wacky verification stuff
00:45:28 <SirCmpwn> maybe for rocket-grade software
00:45:32 <SirCmpwn> but that's not what I'd be working on there
00:45:36 <shachaf> elliott: pi is the ratio of the length of the circumference of a circle to twice the length of the radius of a circle hth
00:46:08 <SirCmpwn> their space-grade software run on Linux, though, so if it's good enough for linux, it's good enough for them
00:46:31 <elliott> wow, they trust rockets to Linux?
00:46:36 <elliott> must have never looked at the code
00:46:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:46:55 <Bike> Well the ISS uses Windows.
00:47:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> Nikolay or Nikolai is an East Slavic variant of the feminine name Nicola, meaning "Goat Whisperer." It may refer to: <-- that's vandalism, i've reverted it. in the process realizing you _can_ undo a row of edits simultaneously now...
00:47:39 <shachaf> oerjan: oh i wasn't talking about that part
00:47:44 <Bike> "I don't have an issue with serving in the military per se, but serving in the South African army suppressing black people just didn't seem like a really good way to spend time"
00:47:46 <elliott> Bike: not for the actual super duper important stuff I'd assume
00:47:47 <Jafet> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/12/drone_consoles_linux_switch/
00:47:58 <Bike> elliott: well nah.
00:48:21 <Bike> "Musk went on to a graduate program in both applied physics and materials science at Stanford in 1995. He stayed two days before dropping out to start Zip2, which provided online content publishing software for news organisations,"
00:49:08 <elliott> ok I think it was another paypal founder who was completely crazy.
00:49:24 <Bike> Musk had plans for a "Mars Oasis" project in 2001, which would land a miniature experimental greenhouse on Mars, containing food crops growing on Martian regolith.
00:49:33 <Bike> Oh, you mean the one who wanted to found the place from Bioshock?
00:49:56 <shachaf> how about the one who wrestled on the floor
00:50:10 <elliott> also the weird misogynist I think?
00:50:29 <kmc> so is elon musk also an obnoxious libertarian
00:50:29 <Bike> hm this other paypal guy was a producer of Thank You For Smoking, I can't hate that
00:50:38 <kmc> like peter thiel
00:50:56 <elliott> right peter thiel was the one
00:50:58 <Bike> ah okay Thiel's the bioshock guy
00:51:35 <elliott> ok musk seems like a decent guy. or at least I see no evidence to suggest otherwise
00:51:38 <kmc> peter thiel said that letting women vote was the biggest political catastrophe of the 20th century, or something
00:51:43 <elliott> except for founding a company with peter thiel I guess?
00:51:45 <kmc> because it means that libertarianism won't automatically win always
00:51:49 <Bike> ok i want to hear the explanation behind that
00:51:56 <elliott> also I guess paypal is kind of evil but I suppose that probably came later
00:52:02 <Bike> "The Diversity Myth" oh, well,
00:52:15 <kmc> is that the article about how great it was that PayPal was 100% male bros from stanford
00:52:26 <Bike> no it's a fucking entire book
00:52:27 <kmc> and they would wrestle with each other to settle arguments?
00:52:36 <Bike> "The Diversity Myth: 'Multiculturalism' and the Politics of Intolerance at Stanford"
00:52:46 <Bike> pretty sure you can fill in the synopsis yourself
00:53:04 <Bike> got a negative review from Condaleeza Rice, lol
00:53:11 <Bike> whose name i can't spell
00:53:49 <Bike> Hyperloop is a hypothetical mode of high-speed transportation proposed by inventor and SpaceX founder Elon Musk. Musk has envisioned the system as a 'fifth mode' of transportation, an alternative to boats, planes, cars and trains.[1] The system would, in theory, be able to travel from downtown Los Angeles to downtown San Francisco in under 30 minutes.[2]
00:55:02 <Bike> oh, thiel also helped with Thank you for smoking. guess i can hate that.
00:55:18 <Fiora> that was a good movie though :<
00:55:56 <Bike> Huh it was made by William Buckley's son!
00:55:58 <Fiora> at least I remember it being good
00:56:01 <Bike> I didn't know htat.
00:56:04 <Bike> Yeah, I liked the movie too.
00:56:16 <kmc> i'm sure peter thiel has done at least one thing I like even if he is a douchebag
00:56:20 <kmc> that's life
00:56:42 <Fiora> elliott: the optimist in me would imagine that as a book about colleges seeking superficial diversity while ignoring the hard things (e.g. class) so they end up with a bunch of ""diverse"" suburban upper-middle-class kids
00:56:46 <Fiora> but I'm guesing that isn't it
00:56:51 <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too
00:57:00 <Fiora> he painted pictures?
00:57:02 <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
00:57:06 <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler
00:57:06 <Bike> his paintings are kind of shitty
00:57:07 <kmc> they weren't very good pictures
00:57:10 <kmc> oh yeah, there we go
00:57:12 <kmc> thanks Fiora
00:57:13 <Fiora> that's one thing he did that was good, right
00:57:18 <Fiora> so he wasn't all bad was he
00:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i haven't had a good libertarian bashing for like a week
00:57:24 <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
00:57:31 <Bike> yeah that's right, i'm stealing a joke from a youtube comment.
00:57:36 <elliott> unlike the rest of us, Phantom_Hoover is referring to literal bashing.
00:57:36 <Fiora> ... that's true. that's pretty bad
00:57:45 <elliott> a side-project to unwind from all the brainfuck derivative brainbricking
00:58:05 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
00:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (please read that in your head without a hint of sarcasm)
00:58:09 <HackEgo> 1008) <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
00:58:30 <elliott> kmc: it's gonna be great when your future employer finds the #esoteric quote database
00:59:05 <HackEgo> 597) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 628) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 699) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 702) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
00:59:10 <elliott> Bike: secretly I steal all my jokes from youtube comments
00:59:14 <Bike> wow that's pretty hireable
00:59:31 <Bike> i kind of want to hire him and i'm not even an employer
00:59:48 <elliott> thankfully 702 cut off just before the reference to illicit activities
00:59:51 <shachaf> i pay in tosanini's burnt caramel ice cream
01:00:11 <elliott> shachaf: i want ice cream now
01:00:38 <shachaf> elliott: imo come to Mid-Cambridge, MA and have yourself some burnt caramel ice cream from toscanini's
01:01:21 <Fiora> `addquote <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler <kmc> oh yeah, there we go <kmc> thanks Fiora <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
01:01:24 <HackEgo> 1009) <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler <kmc> oh yeah, there we go <kmc> thanks Fiora <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
01:01:36 <elliott> is there anything interesting in cambridge
01:01:43 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
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01:02:21 <elliott> 01:55:42 <dolio> Do you prefer burnt caramel ice cream or salted caramel ice cream?
01:02:24 <elliott> 01:55:57 <shachaf> dolio: salted hth
01:02:27 <elliott> shachaf are you advertising the inferior ice cream to me.
01:02:45 <shachaf> 17:57 <shachaf> dolio: I was at Toscanini's in Jan 2012 and I had burnt caramel ice cream!
01:02:48 <shachaf> 17:58 <shachaf> I was looking forward to it and then disappointed.
01:02:49 <shachaf> 17:58 <shachaf> I guess I don't like burnt things very much? :-(
01:02:56 <elliott> you wanted to disappoint me.
01:03:01 <shachaf> 17:58 <dolio> It's delicious.
01:03:05 <elliott> isn't burnt caramel basically... caramel.
01:03:08 <shachaf> the real qustion is who do you trust
01:06:27 <shachaf> Sgeo: You're abusing type classes. Stop it.
01:06:50 <Sgeo> I abuse norns, I abuse type classes
01:06:58 <oerjan> caramel is basically burnt sugar
01:07:06 <Bike> some kind of psychopath but actually just kind of sad to watch
01:07:08 <elliott> oerjan: hence my confusion.
01:07:18 <shachaf> you think you can only burn something once?
01:07:22 <shachaf> burn sugar, it becomes caramel
01:07:29 <shachaf> burn caramel, it becomes burnt caramel
01:08:51 <elliott> what happens if you burn burnt caramel
01:09:35 <shachaf> if you freeze burnt caramel you get burnt caramel ice cream hth
01:09:38 <HackEgo> 29) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
01:17:01 <shachaf> wait jackalopes aren't real?
01:17:12 <Bike> you lived in washington and didn't know that?
01:17:32 <elliott> Bike: oh huh. addition is really easy.
01:17:41 <shachaf> Bike: i never knew exactly what they were :'(
01:18:51 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> Bike: oh huh. addition is really easy.
01:18:54 <HackEgo> 1009) <elliott> Bike: oh huh. addition is really easy.
01:19:37 <shachaf> elliott: well i mean it stands to reason addition would be easy
01:19:51 <shachaf> after all.....................
01:20:01 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:20:21 <elliott> multiplication looks harder though. your theory needs work
01:20:34 <elliott> Bike: help, this paper makes me want to write it out in Coq instead of doing things I want to do instead
01:20:43 <elliott> like maybe learn Idris, or read that Operational Semantics Using the Partiality Monad paper.
01:20:56 <shachaf> elliott: imo finish the category theory thing instead?
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01:25:14 <elliott> Bike: oh, this bounded range thing is gross.
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01:30:12 <elliott> Bike: there is the third option of doing some kind of dependent lens thing.
01:34:24 <Bike> thank god for grossness
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01:51:29 <elliott> Bike: ok i lied this is the worst
01:51:49 <Bike> worst is pretty bad
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01:58:17 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0405454, monqy
01:59:11 <elliott> if you link me to anything i have to write it in coq
01:59:26 <elliott> link me to poems? those are going to end up being coq
01:59:36 <shachaf> elliott: http://slbkbs.org/categ.hs
01:59:40 <elliott> link me to a picture of a cat? it's actually a picture of a rooster
02:00:07 <monqy> remember that "paper thing" about that thing the one with division by zero
02:00:19 <monqy> and the guy who did it was in here
02:00:34 <elliott> wow this isnt quackery!! im going to kill you for libel monqy
02:00:51 <Bike> Wait shit, you got the phi dude in here?
02:00:59 <Bike> or whatever he called his stupid... everything
02:01:06 <monqy> nullity dude? no this is diff.
02:01:16 <Bike> oh but i liked nullity :( (no i didn't)
02:01:25 <monqy> elliott: i figured as much but i was just reminded
02:01:26 <elliott> it awast nd idnvisision bey zero btw
02:01:37 <shachaf> British computer scientist's new "nullity" idea provokes reaction from mathematicians
02:02:05 <kmc> british computer scientist discovers 1 weird old trick
02:02:11 <Fiora> wasn't that the thing that was just NaN
02:02:23 <shachaf> we're talking about a different thing noW!!
02:02:39 <shachaf> btw does britain actually exist i think not
02:02:40 <Fiora> kmc: lose 15 epsilons in 3 weeks with this one weird old trick
02:02:56 <Bike> ugh but tao actually has a post on "epsilon management"
02:03:10 <monqy> elliott: wasnt it construction of the arithmetic's or something with the goal or something of hating division by zero and you dont want that
02:03:28 <monqy> so they reinvent the construction of the rationals but make it insane
02:03:32 <shachaf> Bike: well does erdős have one
02:03:34 <monqy> and use weird terminology
02:03:34 <elliott> monqy: well it was a bit different
02:03:38 <elliott> it rejected 0 itself instead
02:03:39 <Bike> i remember that guy
02:03:45 <Bike> something about "losing information"
02:03:48 <shachaf> hey remember that "paper thing" with the proof that the reals were countable
02:04:00 <shachaf> was that in here or in another channel
02:04:12 <elliott> it was weird for me when people started making 1 weird old trick jokes because like
02:04:17 <elliott> i just assume the adverts i see are for my eyes only
02:04:20 <elliott> everyone else gets different ones
02:04:20 <pikhq> shachaf: I don't think that was here, but it sounds hilarious.
02:04:40 <Bike> well have u ever seen an uncountable real
02:04:42 <Bike> with ur own eyes
02:04:53 <kmc> i assume the exact number of tricks and the various adjectives which apply to them were determined by an iterative optimization procedure
02:06:12 <Jafet> Bike: you need to look through the perspex machine
02:06:23 <Bike> was that the nullity guy?
02:06:44 <Bike> «James Anderson is an academic staff "member" in the School of Systems Engineering at the University of Reading, England.» i'm glad i looked this up
02:07:01 <oerjan> <shachaf> Bike: well does erdős have one <-- erdős used the word "epsilon" for children hth
02:07:08 <shachaf> oerjan: that's what i meant hth
02:07:12 <Bike> oh i remember this
02:07:15 <kmc> oerjan: erdős invented that?
02:07:18 <kmc> all my friends do that
02:07:31 <shachaf> everyone i know who's talked about it says it's erdős
02:07:36 <Bike> erdos invented basically everything euler didn't i thought
02:08:03 <Bike> "Perspex Machine V: Compilation of C Programs"
02:08:11 <oerjan> <shachaf> hey remember that "paper thing" with the proof that the reals were countable <-- those are a dime a dozen, see the good math, bad math blog (the bad section)
02:08:11 <Sgeo> I think I thought of a way to get my thing to work, but it's sort of horrible
02:08:18 <shachaf> kmc: how do you make ő with compose
02:08:20 <monqy> Sgeo: is there a way that isnt horrible
02:08:25 <shachaf> oerjan: I mean a specific one.
02:08:26 <kmc> Multi_key = o
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02:08:32 <Sgeo> A class of NonFunctions, and a separate manually written instance of interesting types
02:08:51 <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist.
02:08:57 <shachaf> <dead_doubleacute> <o> elliott : "ő" U0151 # LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE
02:09:02 <shachaf> HOW IS THAT SUPPOSED TO HELP ME
02:09:20 <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D.
02:09:23 <Bike> It literally says that
02:09:26 <kmc> isn't it great that Ｉ doesn't show up at all in my font
02:09:37 <Bike> also it's... written in poplog... for some reason
02:10:13 <Bike> vars transarith = true;
02:10:19 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist. <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D. <Bike> It literally says that
02:10:23 <HackEgo> 1010) <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist. <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D. <Bike> It literally says that
02:10:57 <Bike> well i mean there's more
02:11:02 <Bike> if you want to read two paragraphs of nonsense
02:11:18 <kmc> if I didn't want to read two paragraphs of nonsense, would I be in this channel?
02:11:31 <Bike> define isstrictlytransreal(num); lvars num; num == nuly or num == pinf or num == ninf enddefine;
02:11:31 <shachaf> imo he has a mind reading device hooked up to my brain
02:11:56 <kmc> nulynulynulynuly
02:11:59 <Bike> i actually am not sure what language this is? i thought it was prolog but i guessnot
02:12:09 <Bike> its error routine is called "mishap"
02:12:17 <kmc> it's the elder tongue
02:12:39 <Bike> Return a transreal number given the numerator and denominator. Irrational numbers conventionally have denominator d = 1.
02:12:44 <kmc> v. british
02:12:52 <kmc> fatal error function is "cock-up"
02:13:53 <kmc> I really love that "cock-up" is considered a normal and non-vulgar british phrase
02:14:04 <kmc> so you get BBC headlines like "MoD helicopter fiasco a 'gold standard cock-up'"
02:14:09 <monqy> Bike: is this pseudocode or
02:14:17 <monqy> Bike: not that it makes a difference....
02:14:40 <Bike> Real arithmetic obeys the trichotomy axiom: a number can be greater than, equal to, or less than zero. But transreal arithmetic obeys the quadrachotomy axiom: a number can be nullity or else it can be greater than, equal to, or less than zero.
02:14:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Cockup
02:14:59 <kmc> imo tetrachotomy sounds cooler
02:15:03 <Bike> monqy: it's formatted like real code and mentions poplog which has like nine languages in it?
02:15:22 <Jafet> I had to go for a quadrachotomy once
02:15:33 <Bike> hey it has infix precedence things
02:15:34 <monqy> poplog isn't prolog it's poplog(??????????????????????????????????????)
02:15:36 <Bike> maybe it's haskell!
02:16:04 <Bike> i dunno it doesn't look like ML either
02:16:06 <oerjan> Bike: prolog has that too
02:16:14 <Bike> oh it's in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POP-11
02:16:21 <monqy> Poplog is a reflective, incrementally compiled software development environment for the programming languages POP-11, Common Lisp, Prolog, and Standard ML, originally created in the UK for teaching and research in artificial intelligence at the University of Sussex.
02:16:41 <Bike> define 7 ##= (num1, num2);
02:16:54 <Bike> you got some kinda problem with COWSEL kmc
02:17:01 <monqy> thanks now i know what 7 means
02:17:35 <Bike> this whole long thing of code is literally just to add 0/0 and 1/0 and -1/0 i hate everything
02:18:04 <monqy> is there anything special about pop-11 or is it just this crazy guy being crazy
02:18:14 <elliott> Consider the untyped λ-calculus with a countably infinite set of
02:18:14 <elliott> t ::= c | x | λx.t | t1 t2
02:18:14 <elliott> Closed terms written in this language can compute to a value (a
02:18:14 <elliott> constant c or a closure λx.tρ), but they can also go wrong (crash)
02:18:14 <shachaf> Bike why are you reading things of code
02:18:28 <Bike> shachaf: because i'm sure as fuck not gonna read his papers
02:18:29 <elliott> this paper is stretching my suspension of disbelief a bit with the notion that these programs can crash.
02:18:43 <monqy> elliott: well, constants
02:18:52 <Bike> elliott: what happens if i do "4 5" huh!!
02:18:55 <elliott> monqy: what's wrong with constants????????????????
02:18:56 <Bike> that's right CRASH
02:19:02 <elliott> monqy: it never says they're crashy!!
02:19:10 <elliott> i guess applying them makes sense as a crash
02:19:16 <kmc> the great thing about constants is that there are so many of them to choose from
02:19:18 <elliott> i would have assumed 4 5 is just `inert'
02:19:23 <elliott> you treat them as `primitives' or w/e
02:19:27 <monqy> that's what a crash is
02:19:39 <Bike> ok wait back up
02:19:40 <monqy> crashing is when you get stuck
02:19:45 <Bike> since when do you call a lambda abstraction a "closure"
02:19:47 <elliott> imo its not a crash to do something like that...... because you dont say the program is Wrong necessarily
02:19:49 <monqy> Thank You Operational Semantics
02:20:03 <Bike> thanks haskell
02:20:17 <monqy> youre stuck when you cant make a transition
02:20:26 <kmc> elliott: crush... Qed.
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02:20:56 <monqy> what style of operatiaonal semantics is this
02:21:17 <monqy> if it's with a `partiality monad` it's probably big step?
02:21:26 <Bike> It might be better to separate type checking from from number set membership. For example, 2 is a member of the real, transreal, complex, and transcomplex numbers; but it has builtin type integer and polymorphically real. A purist would keep the builtin real and complex types distinct, but many languages promote real to complex. Types are a
02:21:31 <Bike> language issue and need to be resolved for each individual language.
02:23:03 <elliott> monqy: Operational Semantics Using the Partiality Monad
02:23:15 <Jafet> imo Bike should do a writeup on the wiki
02:23:18 <monqy> no im confused about bike's thing
02:23:31 <elliott> answering your QUESTIOn gOSH!
02:23:56 <Bike> Transrithmetical
02:24:20 <monqy> looks like this is in AGDA ~uh oh~
02:24:21 <Bike> i need to look up who published this shithead though
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02:25:20 <Bike> "Proceedings of SPIE offer access to the latest innovations in research and technology and are among the most cited references in patent literature."
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02:26:19 <elliott> monqy: Nils Anders Danielsson is <italics>An Agda Guye</italics>
02:26:27 <monqy> is that a legit conf or one of those drug fronts that'll accept just about anything even scigen
02:26:30 <elliott> i think he wrote the agda stdlib
02:26:44 <Bike> SCIE seems sorta legit
02:26:54 <Bike> except that he was presenting this at a fucking vision conference
02:26:57 <elliott> monqy: how many drug fronts have you published in
02:27:22 <Bike> and some AI thing
02:27:44 <elliott> not ready for the drugs yet
02:28:06 <elliott> just say Nothing (programmer joke :-))
02:28:49 <monqy> cute, this defines a big step relation for terminating computations, a relation for nonterminating computations, and a relation for crashing computations
02:29:40 <elliott> only to tear down the relations :-O
02:29:41 <monqy> the only big step ive ever seen either only defines semantics for terminating stuff or it's defined coinductively....
02:30:28 <Bike> was elliott called ehird because he was super into HIRD
02:30:41 <shachaf> HIRD Elliott: Are you going to do the category thing?
02:30:51 <elliott> are you going to continue addressing me as HIRD Elliott
02:31:14 <elliott> it seems moderately pointless
02:35:14 <SirCmpwn> I decided to leave the text about my brainfuck bot in place
02:35:23 <SirCmpwn> I tweaked it to only say "brainfuck" once, and in quotes
02:35:55 <shachaf> I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on the other side, in parenthesis, capital letters, quotated, read the following words:
02:35:59 <Bike> a language related to P'' called "brain fuck"
02:36:48 <shachaf> (“KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?”)
02:37:55 <shachaf> Bike haven't you heard Alice's Restaurant
02:38:41 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjKF7aQthcQ
02:38:49 <shachaf> kmc can confirm that imo go listen
02:39:46 <Bike> 23 minute song
02:39:49 <Bike> this can't possibly be bad
02:39:54 <elliott> "North Korea seen moving missile after it declares it has given approval for a nuclear attack on the United States"
02:40:29 <elliott> this song has guitar so shachaf probably hates it
02:40:33 <Bike> north korean rockets not working correctly, mysterious large package of "cake" arrives addressed toseoul
02:43:33 <elliott> shachaf: apparently this is a decades-later re-recording of the original from a decades-later re-recording of the album it originally appeared on, and now I'm sitting here trying to figure out why anyone would bother doing such a thing
02:43:40 <elliott> thank you for the bewilderment.
02:44:00 <shachaf> elliott: well have you heard the song
02:44:09 <oerjan> i bet MicheleZ5 is a spam account
02:44:56 <Bike> haha the singer endorsed ron paul
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02:45:32 <elliott> well everyone is endorsing ron paul these days. even fish
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02:47:26 <oerjan> elliott: north korea will make such a nice radioactive glass desert, don't you think
02:49:52 <Bike> the UN endorses ron paul yes
02:50:48 <oerjan> <shachaf> So's this channel? <-- HEY WE HAVE STRICT RULES ABOUT WHAT KIND OF POINTLESS STUFF IS ALLOWED HERE, SIR
02:51:02 <shachaf> oerjan: What are the rules?
02:51:34 <Bike> juche: a libertarian perspective
02:52:38 <oerjan> shachaf: I'M SORRY, THAT POINTLESS QUESTION IS FORBIDDEN BY THE RULES
02:53:22 <doesthiswork> so I don't think you should restrict the discussion to only pointful languages
02:58:21 <oerjan> indeed, pointless languages are among the things allowed to discuss here
03:01:37 <shachaf> oerjan: (\xs -> What are the xs?) rules
03:02:09 <doesthiswork> one thing that bugs me is how often we have to name intermediate values just so we can reuse them,
03:03:11 <oerjan> doesthiswork: yeah that's why they added \case to recent ghc haskell
03:03:25 <oerjan> (i think that was the finally decided syntax?)
03:04:36 <oerjan> shachaf: YOUR QUESTION IS BETA-EQUIVALENT TO A FORBIDDEN QUESTION
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03:18:44 <Bike> the heck is /case
03:19:49 <elliott> \case pats -> \v -> case v of pats for fresh v
03:19:58 <elliott> that first -> is a big ol ==> desugaring arrow
03:21:36 <Bike> oh so you can do like \case 0 -> 1; n -> n * fact (n-1) or whatever
03:22:03 <elliott> wow I feel like I need a fun fact about this feature.
03:23:55 <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
03:24:05 <Bike> that doesn't use the feature.
03:24:07 <oerjan> Bike: it's particularly useful for chaining with >>=
03:24:11 <elliott> it's not even haskell in fact.
03:24:20 <shachaf> Bike: it's just a fun fact hth
03:24:25 <Bike> It's not but i expect shahaf to innovate through that,elliott.
03:24:32 <Bike> He's an innovator. It's what he does. He innovates.
03:24:49 <shachaf> build bigger, stronger walls
03:24:51 <elliott> go me for making a joke by mistake
03:25:10 <shachaf> elliott: i saw that but it was bad so i didn't comment
03:26:42 <oerjan> main = getArgs >>= (\case [fname] -> readFile fname; [] -> getContents) >>= putStr
03:27:17 <oerjan> although the parentheses are a bit naff
03:27:23 <elliott> are you trying to be british
03:27:41 <Bike> getArgs >>= $ \case [fname] ... $ >>= putStr i'm sure this will work.
03:27:45 <oerjan> i thought "ugly" first, but that's not quite it
03:30:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Sadly, not quite cat.
03:31:35 <oerjan> main = do getArgs >>= \case [fname] -> readFile fname; [] -> getContents
03:32:18 <shachaf> main = do do do getArgs >>= ...
03:32:40 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVUyyHYkBHk
03:32:55 <oerjan> shachaf: it was just to get rid of the parentheses
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03:34:07 <pikhq> main = getArgs >>= f >>= putStr where f [x] = readFile x;f [] = getContents
03:34:50 <Bike> now that's just crazy talk
03:34:56 <oerjan> pikhq: um the whole point here is to use \case to avoid making up names for more things than necessary
03:35:14 <Bike> an Important Readability Extension
03:35:48 <Jafet> Readability Of Functional Languages
03:36:06 * pikhq summons Pointfree Man
03:37:06 <Jafet> There should be a conference on esolang research
03:37:11 <Jafet> it can be called ROFL
03:37:50 <Jafet> Research on fringe languages
03:38:29 <kmc> it can be a working group at http://sigbovik.org/
03:39:09 <Bike> does esolang have a sigbovik affiliation; if not why not
03:39:24 <Bike> http://sigbovik.org/2013/images/mainlogo.png haha yes.
03:39:50 <Bike> AND a mustard watch reference
03:39:56 <Bike> Fiora: http://sigbovik.org/2013/images/graph13.png
03:40:05 <kmc> what is mustard watches
03:40:24 <Jafet> http://iml.univ-mrs.fr/~girard/mustard/page1.html
03:40:27 <Bike> something that one linear logic guy came up with
03:40:42 <Bike> it's a pretty obscure satire about nonclassical logics
03:40:52 <Bike> more importantly, it involves http://sigbovik.org/2013/images/graph7.png
03:41:25 <kmc> not sure i get the satire but I appreciate the surrealism
03:42:00 <Bike> basically people saying "what if we had a logic that let you do everything classical did PLUS GAVE YOU MUSTARD" i think
03:42:12 <Bike> iunno i'm shit at logic
03:42:14 <kmc> put a bird on it
03:43:14 <Bike> hm the business school is hilariously buzzwordy is that normal
03:43:23 <kmc> whose business school
03:43:42 <Jafet> None of your business school
03:43:42 <shachaf> none of your business school hth
03:43:43 <Bike> "CB graduates lead insightfully by skillfully applying core business competencies, employing a global perspective, and embracing diversity"
03:43:48 <shachaf> Jafet........................
03:43:56 <Jafet> I stole his mind reader.
03:44:10 <kmc> Bike: but do they leverage things
03:44:15 <shachaf> According to the logs Jafet posted it first. :-(
03:44:24 <shachaf> my irc client begs to differ
03:44:33 <ion> shachaf: Only from the subjective point of view of the logger.
03:44:40 <Bike> hm i'm seeing driving butnot leveraging
03:44:51 <kmc> i saw "leverage" used as a transitive verb to refer to actually physically using a lever on an object
03:44:57 <kmc> that was a weird full circle moment
03:45:01 <shachaf> begs to differ? is she even in version control?
03:45:12 * ion fullcircles kmc
03:46:02 <Bike> also the business school's blurb is about how they have wifi everywhere and nice dorms or whatever, where all the other ones maybe mention their new labs
03:47:27 <kmc> i think i've missed some context
03:47:43 <Bike> dude they have an entrepeneurship program.
03:47:50 <Bike> you can major in being an entrepeneur
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03:50:15 <kmc> everyone has that
03:50:58 <kmc> where do you think all the "idea people" just looking for a "technical co-founder" come from
03:51:23 <Bike> i thought they all dropped out of college to found dogbook.
03:53:25 <kmc> is that... facebook for dogs
03:53:48 <kmc> not as good as my 'facebook for kitchen appliances' idea
03:53:51 <Bike> if you have a better go-to stereotypical bullshit startup i'd be happy to hear it
03:54:01 <Bike> dude that's like, twenty syllables! i ain't got time for that shit.
03:54:28 <kmc> well these days it's all about gamifyinfg the mobile, social, local apps
03:55:14 <Bike> foursquare + halo
04:01:47 <kmc> apparently SCVNGR has more or less shut down and LevelUp is in dire straits
04:02:36 <kmc> maybe I shouldn't take joy in the failings of others, but their founder is a consummate douchenozzle
04:03:35 <kmc> http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/05/02/seth-priebatsch-the-ayn-rand-loving-feet-baring-efficiency-obsessed-savant-behind-scvngr/ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/business/19entre.html?pagewanted=all
04:03:57 <Bike> hm i'm just gonna stop at that url
04:03:59 <elliott> Bike: I like "that one linear logic guy"
04:04:11 <Bike> elliott: you knew who i meant didn't you
04:04:13 <kmc> i like the part in the first article where he brags about stealing services from MIT and then in the same breath says that MIT students are lazy fatasses
04:04:16 <elliott> well, like, he sort of invented it
04:04:36 <Bike> on the other hand there is apparently a person named Guy who does linear logic so searching "linear logic guy" doesn't really work
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04:08:14 <elliott> wow, coinduction is a fucking pain to work with.
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04:15:55 <Bike> i am here and ready to talk about french logicians
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04:21:12 <elliott> <doesthiswork> what are you useing it for?
04:21:21 <elliott> doesthiswork: some play-around lambda calculus things in coq.
04:21:26 <elliott> i was trying to implement the things in this paper.
04:21:50 <Bike> oh hey elliott that reals paper, i got linked it because somebody thought it might be useful for lambda calculus things
04:21:54 <Bike> is that the case?
04:23:15 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoFRXks2X68#t=2m kmc: hi i'm bashar al-assad and welcome to jackass
04:23:37 <elliott> for like, implementing the computable reals in LC I guess?
04:23:47 <Bike> maybe if you implemented it in coq.......
04:23:51 <Bike> but yeah something like that
04:23:54 <Bike> i have no idea about these things
04:25:00 <elliott> anyway proving equalities about coninductive things is, like, awful.
04:25:46 <oerjan> elliott: which reminds me of that comment i saw about copatterns in r/haskell. i wonder what those are.
04:25:55 <kmc> Bike: cool now I know the arabic for "HOLY FUCK GUYS DID YOU SEE THAT"
04:26:17 <Bike> kmc: if i've learned anything from these videos it's that if you shout ALLAHU AKBAR constantly you're basically speakingn arabic
04:26:26 <elliott> oerjan: those are simple to explain
04:26:33 <kmc> they do say that a lot
04:26:40 <oerjan> supposedly they make codata more intuitive or something
04:26:41 <kmc> particularly in war type situations
04:26:43 <elliott> oerjan: imagine codata Stream a = Cons { head :: a, tail :: Stream a }
04:27:02 <elliott> tail (tail fibs) = zipWith (+) ...etc...
04:27:23 <Bike> that's kinda weird but i like it
04:27:25 <elliott> just defining fibs in terms of how it's destructed
04:27:48 <elliott> and you can write it as, e.g. codata Stream a = head a & tail (Stream a)
04:27:52 <elliott> to show how it's sort of dual to |
04:28:19 <elliott> map :: (a -> b) -> Stream a -> Stream b
04:28:29 <kmc> i don't totally get it though
04:28:33 <elliott> head (map f (Cons x xs)) = x
04:28:36 <kmc> the guy can set a tank on fire with some small hand-thrown weapon?
04:28:37 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/0a77e448bef7a06132fd72c1810c82bf/tumblr_mkmu7277Wq1sn19ono1_500.jpg
04:28:41 <kmc> and then the guys in the tank don't get out or anything?
04:28:43 <Bike> kmc: he put it in the barrel
04:28:45 <elliott> tail (map f (Cons x xs)) = map f xs
04:28:50 <elliott> uh, dunno how that looks with & though
04:28:55 <oerjan> elliott: *= f x surely
04:28:56 <Bike> and according to the comments (for god's sake don't read the comments) it might have been disabled by an RPG first
04:29:18 <Bike> generally speaking i don't think escaping from a burning tank is easy though
04:29:26 <elliott> head (map f (head x & tail _)) = f x; tail (map f (head _ & tail xs)) = map f xs or something
04:29:32 <kmc> oh yeah I see now holy shit
04:29:35 <elliott> you could use view patterns >:)
04:29:41 <Bike> basically yeah, holy shit.
04:29:42 <elliott> head (map f (head -> x)) = f x
04:29:49 <elliott> tail (map f (tail -> xs)) = map f xs
04:29:57 <Bike> i've seen a few videos of tanks going up like that and it's always a trip
04:30:21 <Bike> fire literally pouring out
04:32:15 <kmc> i guess there's a previous attempt at 1:20 or so
04:32:51 <elliott> oerjan: np. there's probably some much better / more complete write-up elsewhere, I just picked up the basic idea from IRC
04:33:19 <elliott> btw I like these two simultaneous conversations
04:33:39 <Bike> fire literally pouring out of the coinduction
04:34:17 <elliott> kmc: "As you've likely gathered, Priebatsch is 22 years old." I like how this article gets as close as possible to saying he's an asshole without actually doing so
04:34:46 <elliott> "I found out that basically the real world was essentially the same game as Civilization [an old computer game], just with slightly better graphics, maybe, and slightly slower."
04:35:10 -!- Bike has set topic: [an old computer game] | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:35:34 <elliott> I wonder if there's some kind of reason the world looks like Civilisation? o Sid Meier, what prescience you must have had to invent something that the world would later imitate
04:35:51 <kmc> elliott: I think it's a nice contrast about what young men do to seek glory under different circumstances
04:37:07 <kmc> I think the first time the grenade doesn't make it all the way down the barrel and so bits of grenade just come shooting out?
04:37:11 <elliott> "Priebatsch, like an undergrad reading Marx for the first time, started to look at everything through this new worldview."
04:37:19 <elliott> this article writer totally hates the guy
04:37:24 <kmc> i have some Marx open in a tab
04:37:41 <kmc> elliott: probably
04:38:07 <Bike> no i mean like... which thing of his.
04:38:08 <kmc> Theories of Surplus Value
04:38:19 <elliott> Bike: i think i might have had a dream about you being a bicycle. not sure though
04:38:30 <kmc> it was linked from something that was linked from something that... you know how it goes
04:38:31 <Bike> uh what else would i be
04:38:35 <kmc> i haven't read any Marx to date
04:38:37 <Bike> like a unicycle or some shit? come on bro.
04:38:46 <Bike> I think i read the communist manifesto once
04:38:51 <elliott> well this might be a little strange
04:38:55 <elliott> but my working hypothesis is that you are a person.
04:38:57 <Bike> paid enough attention to be amused at how much of it was complaints about communists
04:39:33 <Bike> elliott: could you write this hypothesis out for me in coq
04:41:09 <kmc> i don't think marxism is very respectable among modern economists
04:41:17 <kmc> but maybe it's important in a historical and cultural sense
04:41:45 <Bike> it's certainly nowhere near mainstream, even leftist economists go for something that's at best built off of it
04:42:08 <Bike> i mean it's like... old.
04:44:55 <Bike> let's see who's vaguely leftist
04:45:02 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunnar_Myrdal is cool and he wrote about race in the US for some reason
04:45:34 <Bike> or you could just read graeber and be dumb maybe i dunno
04:46:07 <Fiora> kmc: http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/ you might enjoy this
04:46:17 <kmc> haha yes i do
04:47:31 <Bike> "It would be easy to forget that the problem even exists, when our headlines are constantly splashed with the violence in Fiji, the authoritarian crackdown in Somalia and the still-unstable democratic transition in Mexico." nailed it
04:47:45 <shachaf> Ugh, I seem to be sick or something again.
04:47:49 <shachaf> It's been happening every month.
04:48:18 <elliott> Bike: um it's actually "It would be easy to forget that the problem even exists, when our headlines are constantly splashed with the violence in Greece, the authoritarian crackdown in Comoros and the still-unstable democratic transition in Ghana."
04:48:34 <Bike> "When I visited Singapore in 2000, Mbantu, the cabbie who drove me from the airport," i think this adds to the experience really
04:48:41 <Bike> I have actually never heard of Comoros.
04:49:08 <Bike> oh it's one of those island states in the indian ocean
04:49:27 <kmc> i used to be able to name all the countries of the world
04:49:43 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDtdQ8bTvRc with or without this?
04:50:00 <Fiora> (bike and I are literally the same person I swear)
04:50:27 <kmc> http://www.sporcle.com/games/g/world
04:50:50 <Bike> hm comoros has a territory dispute with frane
04:51:38 <kmc> "The Comoros is the only state to be a member of all of the following: the African Union, Francophonie, Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, Arab League... and the Indian Ocean Commission"
04:51:43 <kmc> and yes apparently it's The Comoros
04:52:58 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tree_map_export_2009_Comoros.jpeg
04:53:50 <Bike> for... breaking up? like scrap?
04:53:53 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's been happening every month. <-- you're actually female hth
04:54:29 <Fiora> Bike: don't a lot of poorer nations get dumped with the job of shipbreaking nowadays?
04:54:54 <Bike> i have no idea, i mean, it makes sense but i've never heard of it
04:55:04 <Bike> in fact i've never even heard of "shipbreaking"
04:55:49 <Fiora> "Today, most ship breaking yards are in developing countries, with the largest yards at Gadani in Pakistan, Alang in India, Chittagong in Bangladesh and Aliağa in Turkey. This is due to lower labor costs and less stringent environmental regulations dealing with the disposal of lead paint and other toxic substances. "
04:56:37 <Bike> christ i thought pakistan was landlocked fuck me
04:57:28 <Fiora> it's like electronics recycling
04:57:40 <Bike> it's messy and go away but also profitable?
04:57:49 <Fiora> (translation: a bunch of underpaid third world workers poisoning themselves to take apart your iphones)
04:58:19 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Agbogbloshie.JPG
04:58:29 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie
04:58:48 <Bike> Oh, wasn't that in some magazine?
04:59:02 <elliott> should i go to the comoros
04:59:36 <elliott> man I love ships. that break.
04:59:36 <Bike> Due to its harsh living conditions and rampant crime, the area is nicknamed "Sodom and Gomorrah".
05:00:01 <pikhq> Yaaaay, people getting paid cents each day to take apart crap that's probably worth more than they'll make this year.
05:00:58 <Bike> we should tweet about it
05:09:46 <elliott> oerjan: why are we still awake
05:10:52 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Apr 4 07:10:51 2013
05:10:58 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 4 06:10:57 2013
05:11:16 <shachaf> Because you slept all night and woke up 20 minutes ago?
05:11:17 <Bike> It's early in the morning! Time to get out and plow!
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05:16:00 <btiffin> COBOL paragraph, compiles links and go's, will soon be part of frogSort in cbrain:
05:16:18 <btiffin> ....call "fork" returning opinion end-call
05:16:30 <btiffin> ....if respect is zero then
05:17:01 <btiffin> ........subtract 1 from shared-value
05:17:15 <btiffin> ........if not fair then go forkyourself.
05:17:37 <Bike> so you didn't answer my question before
05:17:44 <Bike> does cobol have automatic memory management or what
05:17:54 <btiffin> Oh, I thought you were still taunting. ;-)
05:18:06 <Bike> no i'm actually curious.
05:18:18 <btiffin> OpenCOBOL does, with BASED. Normal WORKING-STORAGE section is not, it's fixed.
05:18:44 <Bike> based, is that like a stack or
05:19:08 <Bike> oh boy i love malloc
05:19:10 <btiffin> But ANY LENGTH is still in draft
05:19:31 <btiffin> so var-1 PIC X(65535) BASED.
05:19:32 <kmc> we may be approaching Peak COBOL
05:19:44 <btiffin> takes up no storage, but you need to set a max.
05:20:43 <btiffin> Linkage section allows for externals to do the management
05:22:51 <btiffin> kmc: I have a lot of fun with OpenCOBOL. COBOL in C space, which for all intensive purposes is the internet, is a lot of fun. (Intents and, yeah, yeah, this is intense) ;-)
05:26:05 <Bike> so why should i use cobol rather than let's say snobol, what does cobol bring to the soda and cold pizza covered table
05:27:29 <btiffin> Umm, use them both. I'm writing up a sample linking Unicon.
05:28:14 <Bike> ok like why add cobol to my repertoire of mad coding music then. i just, it's hard for me to register that somebody could /enjoy/ cobol, it's the stereotypical boring... uh... thing.
05:29:22 <btiffin> There is a vast pile of custom, closed COBOL. All the talk is rewrites and modernization. Nah, let them keep COBOL and attach (directly embedding) all the modern they want.
05:29:53 <Bike> well i can appreciate that, but you said you didn't do this for business, you just like openCOBOL?
05:30:18 <btiffin> Yep. COBOL reads the beauty
05:30:19 <Bike> so like, presumably you're writing new code that's mostly "standalone", not maintaining an existing system?
05:30:40 <btiffin> I'm actually just the fan boy writing prototypes and documentation.
05:31:29 <btiffin> But most of the paid work would come from existent source code (which, may not read beautifully of course)
05:32:08 <btiffin> Last time I got paid to sling COBOL was umm, 83, 4?
05:40:21 <oerjan> ...someone here is older than me?
05:41:01 <oerjan> elliott: THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
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05:43:40 <btiffin> Nearing 50, this summer. Fan of bf, (and as old guy, I'm sad about Urban's choice of name. I can't talk to my mom about bf, without calling it bffff), but now with pbrain, I can reference pbrain and well, yay, cbrain.
05:44:10 <Bike> brainmomi'mgay
05:44:59 * Fiora feels slightly less old
05:45:27 <oerjan> don't tell me Fiora is also older than me.
05:46:24 <shachaf> Fiora is 2013 years old hth
05:47:04 <btiffin> I grew up as a commercial fisherman, so cuss'es are a thing of beauty. My old man could rhyme off 30 in a row when nets got tangled Sweet. But, not in front of the mom. ;-)
05:48:25 <btiffin> She came out a few times, but ended up seasick just about every run.
05:50:42 <btiffin> Anyone ever hear about micromorts?
05:50:58 <Bike> the little death?
05:51:16 <btiffin> The chance per million of kakking doing a particular thing?
05:51:32 <oerjan> curiously, "mort" is a norwegian word for baby fish
05:51:39 <btiffin> Like 1 million people got drunk yesterday, 70 didn't make it. 70 micromorts
05:51:39 <Bike> I thought it was an orgasm.
05:51:44 <oerjan> so i wasn't quite sure whether you had changed the subject
05:51:49 <coppro> Bike: fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration
05:51:51 <Bike> I don't know "kakking" either.
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05:52:05 <btiffin> Writing code at a desk is sub-one micromort.
05:52:27 <Bike> coppro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_petite_mort Inject some class into your vocabulary!
05:52:32 <Bike> By class I mean sex jokes
05:52:43 <kmc> french sex jokes are way classy
05:53:23 <btiffin> Fishing is 1600 ish, I get to go around and yell, Fished commercially, and LIVED. ;-) Now, with COBOL, no yelling. Just Dilbert nerd dances.
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05:54:33 <btiffin> Bike: sorry, kakking is dropping dead, on the spot.
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05:59:28 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've managed to mention that both my grandfathers were fishermen. afaik neither died of it.
05:59:42 <oerjan> although i had an uncle who drowned.
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06:00:58 <oerjan> i don't think he was commercial fisherman though.
06:01:09 <btiffin> I traded a shift to go ashore on a night that sank our boat and drowned my dad's friends.
06:01:50 <btiffin> Fished commercially, and LIVED.
06:05:16 <btiffin> then wrote sad code and died a little inside, and LIVED.
06:08:17 <btiffin> Bike, not sure how long I'll hang out in esoland, but if you get to know me, I'm a fan of the lame. Lame is just grand. :-) Lamer the better.
06:08:34 <btiffin> What did Batman say to Robin, JUST before they got in the car?
06:08:53 <Bike> do you mean like, dorky? because "lame" just makes me think of physical injuries, especially in the context of barely not drowning
06:09:34 <btiffin> Yeah, dorky, kinda. Lame as in "that's just lame"
06:11:01 <btiffin> Why do sea gulls fly over seas? If they flew over bays, they'd be bagels.
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10:46:06 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
10:55:16 <Taneb> Sgeo, you're a bit slow
10:55:29 <Taneb> I thought that was hours ago
10:55:32 <Sgeo> I was a bit asleep
10:56:00 <Deewiant> Isn't there a timestamp for the update you could also post
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11:11:41 <Taneb> Also, last night I think the Chinese Graphics Card problem came back
11:11:50 <Taneb> And then I had a bunch of nightmares
11:11:56 <Taneb> So I may be getting confused
11:12:49 <ais523_> I spent all night (after I woke up) working on my javascript database
11:13:03 <ais523_> well, it's currently written in Perl, I'm planning to translate the read end of it into JS once it's working
11:13:14 <ais523_> implementing databases is fun, really
11:13:27 <Taneb> So fun edwardk did it twice
11:13:41 <ais523_> I invented a new user interface/API for them which is more limited than SQL, but also much easier to use in the situations where it works
11:14:49 <ais523_> basically you just say which fields of which tables you care about, and it works out an appropriate sequence of joins, or complains and asks for more precision if there's more than one plausible way to do it
11:15:09 <ais523_> the main limitation is that so far it doesn't handle many-to-many relationships
11:16:46 <ais523_> (it doesn't produce the wrong answer, it just refuses to try)
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11:32:16 <fizzie> I have "?"s in the names of about one quarter of my course participants in this assignment grading table, due to not being able to get the list of registered people (it's in The System somewhere, and I don't have the privileges for that), and having to decipher them out of their handwritten answers.
11:32:46 <fizzie> At least in the case of Finnish name there's usually enough context; but some of these others I really can't guess.
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11:42:30 <ais523_> fizzie: we mostly got round the problem at this university by giving everyone an arbitrary number, and asking them to use them on submissions
11:42:41 <ais523_> (and, often, to leave their actual name off, so that they can be marked pseudo-anonymously)
11:43:02 <ais523_> it's harder to screw up a 7-digit number so badly that it can't be read, than a name
11:43:36 <ais523_> people often put in extra effort to write it legibly because they know they won't get any marks if it's wrong because nobody will be able to figure out whose submission it is
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11:47:00 <fizzie> ais523_: We use the student number too, and there's an official rule of never publishing a list with both names and student numbers on them.
11:47:20 <Deewiant> Which is sometimes followed and sometimes not
11:47:23 <ais523_> I'm not sure if we have that rule or not
11:47:29 <ais523_> people try to avoid it, but sometimes it's unavoidable
11:47:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sometimes it's a list of student numbers only, but sorted according to name.
11:47:58 <fizzie> (That's the best, since you kind of have to do a linear search for your number.)
11:48:40 <fizzie> I've figured out a couple of student numbers by taking the intersection of exam grade lists out of exams I've known the person to attend.
11:49:37 <ais523_> oh, in my case I have a list of student number/name correspondences, because I need it for admin tasks (like working out who isn't submitting exercises), but I'm meant to keep it secret
11:49:58 <ais523_> but there are interfaces via which you can give a name and get a number back, or vice versa, scattered around the computer system
11:50:08 <ais523_> with various degrees of access control
11:50:11 <fizzie> I used to get that list too, but just emailed by a guy with the right sort of access to The System.
11:50:24 <ais523_> yeah, same here, emailed by someone with higher access
11:50:38 <ais523_> one of my favourite boundaries in the system is that you used to be able to email an ID number
11:50:46 <ais523_> which isn't obviously exploitable, but is interesting
11:50:51 <ais523_> I'm not sure if that still works
11:51:39 <fizzie> Also, one of the earlier The Systems had a fault where you could type an ID number in the "people search" field, and it'd return details of the corresponding person, even if it doesn't show the ID number field in the results.
11:51:46 <fizzie> (That one was obviously exploitable.)
11:52:50 <fizzie> Well, now. Here's one submission with no name or student number at all.
11:54:10 <fizzie> And the one right next to it is missing the third digit of the six-digit ID (confirmed by matching with name). This is some sort of an unlucky round.
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12:15:51 <fizzie> Heh, that's funny. If you type the word "attach" in an email in Thunderbird, it'll put up a notice banner reminding you that you might possibly have wanted to attach a file or something.
12:16:21 <fizzie> I've sent my own share of "please see attached file" + "whoops, I mean, *here's* the file" email pairs, so I suppose that's a good idea.
12:16:49 <fizzie> "Sending of message failed. The Kerberos/GSSAPI ticket was not accepted by the SMTP server mail.aalto.fi. Please check that you are logged in to the Kerberos/GSSAPI realm."
12:16:52 <fizzie> Well, that's less good.
12:17:06 <Taneb> Why am I thinking of toastie makers
12:17:12 <Taneb> Or possibly waffle irons
12:17:21 <Taneb> Something about my dreams last night...
12:17:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: And you can view/edit the list of keywords causing that banner in Preferences/Options -> Composition -> General -> Keywords
12:18:03 <Taneb> Anyway, we've got a new router, so I may brb
12:21:32 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, that would mean we'd have a really crappy toaster
12:22:32 <fizzie> But it would then run NetBSD!
12:23:20 <Taneb> But my dream also had me lose my shoes!
12:23:31 <Taneb> And look for them on the balcony of my school's main hall!
12:23:58 <Taneb> My school's main hall doesn't have a balcony!
12:24:03 <Taneb> Any, now I must go
12:24:19 <Taneb> My home planet needs me
12:28:06 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: you must build a balcony for your school so that you can look for your shoes on it when you lose them!
12:29:16 <fizzie> "2/3 = 0.75" (random quote from one of the submissions).
12:29:29 <fizzie> It's correct up until the 2/3, and the "= 0.75" is the very last thing in it.
12:30:03 <fizzie> It's the kind of thing that can happen.
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13:03:39 <ais523> oh, bleh, wiki spam again
13:03:45 <ais523> despite being fast to clean up, it's still annoying to have to do so
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13:06:21 <mroman> I should reboot my bot.
13:06:45 <ais523> elliott: "Warning: This filter was automatically disabled as a safety measure. It reached the limit of matching more than 5.00% of actions."
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13:09:19 <Koen_> oklofok: do you have other games like your counting dots thingy?
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13:14:56 <ais523> anyway, basically MediaWiki decided that there were sufficient amounts of spam being caught by the filter, that it should disable the filter because it must be interfering with real editors by mistake
13:15:34 <ais523> also, it's now impossible to create a page on Esolang with a <br> tag and no newlines; there's no penalty for trying, it's just that the spambots don't seem to understand newlines
13:15:44 <ais523> so this should shut them down altogether until someone changes their framework
13:25:20 <boily> what if a spambotter spies on this channel?
13:34:28 <boily> hmm... there's a flurry of idlers here. maybe they're all bots?
13:36:37 <ais523> boily: the details of what exactly you aren't allowed to do are public
13:36:47 <ais523> I could hide them, but if I did, I wouldn't tell the channel about them
13:36:58 <ais523> and it's a really easy restriction to figure out by experiment
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14:11:28 <fizzie> Every time there are network problems, there's the chance for some sort of an amazing support experience from the ISP.
14:11:46 <fizzie> This time the problem reporting form just said "this service is temporarily out of order, try again later".
14:12:28 <fizzie> They have an IM-over-the-browser kind of customer contact thing, but that one does not accept fault reports.
14:12:53 <fizzie> Would've'd to SPEAK with ANOTHER HUMAN. How unhygienic.
14:13:00 <fizzie> (Fortunately, it fixed itself.)
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14:17:52 <fizzie> fungot: Are YOU responsible for the wikispam?
14:17:52 <fungot> fizzie: the variable file is not very fast". :) anyways, i mean syntax fnord etc.
14:21:53 <fungot> FireFly: it's " swap the comma and period" followed by another " a", a unicode local, and you output a newline, your interpreter might not show an ui :p there)
14:26:12 <boily> fungot: what is a unicode local?
14:26:13 <fungot> boily: does that allows to extend vim with scheme the implementation figures that out itself. technology is behind all 3 of those. at first the way dataflow folks play with it yourself.
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15:42:01 <Taneb> I wonder if learning OpenGL for C will help me learn it for Haskell enough for it to be worth it for the better-maintained and fuller tutorials?
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15:44:38 <boily> Taneb: yes. you can also learn it for C++/Java, as they're only thin wrappers with the same function names.
15:44:40 <kmc> the Haskell OpenGL library I used is a pretty low level mapping of the C API
15:45:00 <Taneb> Wow, this new router is great
15:45:22 <boily> just be careful of the version of OpenGL you chose to learn, as there are multiple major semantic changes and tools and ways of doing things between them.
15:45:26 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
15:45:39 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, nah, we've already got a toaster, don't need a new one
15:45:52 -!- boily has changed nick to new_toaster.
15:46:34 <new_toaster> (very important when you live in montréal or NYC)
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15:47:35 * ThatOtherPerson slices a bagel in half and puts the slices into new_toaster, then pushes down the thingamabob and presses the bagel button
15:48:07 <ThatOtherPerson> new_toaster: Do you prefer Montral-style bagels or New York-style bagels?
15:49:17 <Taneb> Haskell is OpenGL 2.1, right?
15:49:24 <ais523> I'd say that with OpenGL, the old fixed function pipeline is an interesting introduction but shouldn't be used for actual code
15:56:27 <new_toaster> ThatOtherPerson: Montréal style, definitely. Freshly made in the morning, with sesamee seeds.
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16:02:17 <fizzie> What's the difference?
16:02:33 <fizzie> ("The bagel button". Crazy.)
16:03:20 <ThatOtherPerson> fizzie: Montreal-style bagels are thinner, chewier, and slightly sweeter
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16:04:58 <fizzie> Hrm. I suppose I don't really have a point of reference here.
16:07:00 <fizzie> Yes, several times, but I don't know which kind of they were, since it has all happened in Finland.
16:07:08 <fizzie> If I give you a photo, can you tell from it what kind it is?
16:07:20 <fizzie> http://arnolds.fi/bagels_en <- I've eaten those things.
16:07:37 <fizzie> Okay, so it mentions New York in the description.
16:08:12 <ThatOtherPerson> except they probably were in Finland before they were in New York...
16:08:36 <fizzie> Then there's the ones I've eaten at home, I think they're thinner. At least the hole's bigger.
16:10:00 <fizzie> http://www.foodfactory.fi/dennisBagelit.php are the ones that they sell at our local grocery store.
16:11:21 <fizzie> Hey, the Wikipedia "Bagel" page lists the Finnish vesirinkeli. We used to buy a giant pile of those from the neighbour bakery when visiting the small town where my parents are from.
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16:52:49 <elliott> ais523: heh, becauset here is too much spam?
16:55:19 <ais523> I turned it off and on again to reset it
16:55:48 <ais523> anyway, now we have a filter 2 that's prevents edits anywhere if they contain <br> and no newline, only consequence is preventing the edit
16:56:35 <ais523> this should block every spambot edit we've had recently
16:56:53 <ais523> the spambots have been trying various sorts of <br> to get around the filter; I'm reasonably sure there's some sort of human intervention
16:56:56 <elliott> I swear soon I'll upgrade the wiki and add more captchas
16:57:00 <ais523> perhaps some day they'll discover the existence of newlines ;)
16:57:04 <elliott> hopefully we won't even need the filters then
16:57:21 <elliott> ais523: hmm maybe I should look at the server logs
16:57:33 <ais523> elliott: well I have checkuser logs
16:57:40 <elliott> well they could be using another IP
16:57:40 <ais523> I found the human at one point through checkuser
16:57:43 <ais523> and blocked the IP range
16:57:44 <elliott> and not editing themselves or something
16:57:55 <ais523> since then, everything's just been random proxies when I've checked
16:57:56 <elliott> then it would be beneficial to block them from /reading/ the wiki, at the webserver level
16:58:00 <elliott> so it's harder for them to try new strategies
16:58:01 <ais523> the usual cannot-block-stuff
16:58:13 <elliott> (maybe they have a distinctive user agent...)
16:59:07 <ais523> well the person I suspect of being human stopped editing upon the "clicking submit will block you" warning
16:59:21 <ais523> then resumed a little later from a browser that identified as x64 firefox rather than x86 firefox
17:00:07 <kmc> You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?
17:00:11 <ais523> most likely explanations: they physically changed to a different computer because they thought it would get around the spambot traps (while continuing to use the same username), or they're faking their useragent
17:00:36 <elliott> ais523: I'm baffled as to why, this behaviour does not fit with my mental model of wiki spammers at all
17:00:56 <ais523> it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either
17:00:59 <olsner> kmc: is that the thing that makes your brain melt if you're a bot?
17:01:11 <elliott> which is: basically fully automated, targetting many thousands of wikis all at once, getting other people (without this kind of level of control) to solve CAPTCHAs
17:01:15 <kmc> i thought it was just for detecting bots
17:01:16 <ais523> the most likely thing I can think of is that they're trying to spam with very little idea of what they're doing
17:01:26 <elliott> so why would someone who has the ability to change the bot's behaviour be messing around with a wiki that they can surely tell is basically pointless to spam?
17:01:36 <ais523> probably the spammer variant of a script kiddie
17:01:47 <ais523> they have some tools from somewhere and feel really l33t for using them
17:01:55 <ais523> but don't fundamentally understand what they're doing
17:02:00 <elliott> hmm... maybe I should look at the links they're spamming
17:02:10 <elliott> although, I suppose they're links someone else is paying them to spam, most likely
17:02:21 <ais523> and don't, that'd mean they weren't 100% wasting their time
17:03:08 <elliott> ais523: they'll get no meaningful benefit from me looking at the link; I'll copy it so the referer doesn't show
17:03:24 <elliott> and I might get marginal benefit from it w.r.t. not being as confused
17:04:38 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I figure the easiest thing is to block these at registration time
17:05:04 <elliott> if there really is a human getting around each extra prevention one by one, then it shouldn't be too hard to make them get bored if they can't even get accounts registered without a bunch of work
17:05:39 <ais523> we're getting legitimate non-spammy newbies too
17:05:46 <ais523> so don't want to make things so hard for them
17:05:57 <ais523> there's always the INTERCAL CAPTCHA that Claudio Calvelli uses, it's hilarious
17:07:03 <elliott> ais523: so there was a non-proxy IP originally, right?
17:07:10 <elliott> maybe we could report them to their ISP
17:07:34 <ais523> elliott: there are some IPs that have been used multiple times, and also a range that had multiple spambots editing from it
17:07:37 <ais523> look at my blocks on IP ranges
17:08:05 <ais523> well, one range, one single IP
17:10:41 <elliott> ais523: the 113.212.70.170 one is likely to be the spambot's unproxied IP, right?
17:11:03 <ais523> I think the range is their actual IP
17:12:02 <elliott> the one I just quoted is allocated to APNIC, fwiw
17:12:32 <elliott> and the range, some networking company in Vegas I've never heard of
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17:51:35 <tromp_> hiais523. i like your reversible brainfuck. but now you have a challenge
17:52:03 <tromp_> it needs a self interpreter:)
17:52:27 <AnotherTest> tromp_: why don't you write one yourself? Could be real fun
17:52:35 <ais523> tromp_: IIRC it was proven TC
17:55:15 <tromp_> yes, you proved that it's possible in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck#Computational_class
17:55:57 <tromp_> you coulf write a RBF interpreter in BF and then convert that to RBF
17:57:41 <tromp_> but maybe it can be done directly and still be competitive (in size) with existing BF self-interpreters
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20:08:57 <oerjan> <btiffin> Why do sea gulls fly over seas? If they flew over bays, they'd be bagels. <-- i fear this channel may not be big enough for the both of us.
20:10:04 <Fiora> you're upset at having someone trying to outpun you? :3
20:10:17 <oerjan> _and_ being older to boot.
20:10:27 <Taneb> btiffin must accept the punishment
20:13:27 <boily> what is this channel's preferred form of punishment? tortue by brainfuck derivative?
20:14:07 -!- augur has joined.
20:14:40 <oerjan> my preferred form of punishment is swatting.
20:16:50 <elliott> boily: there's always brainbricking
20:17:00 <elliott> though some have started to consider that practice barbaric.
20:17:28 <fizzie> boily: A torte *of* brainfuck derivatives.
20:17:42 <Taneb> brainbricking was invented during the Punic wars
20:17:47 <elliott> tortilla of brainfuck derivatives
20:18:03 * oerjan hits FireFly with the saucepan ===\__/
20:18:25 <Taneb> It caused those who suffered it to have a puny intelligence
20:18:38 <elliott> oerjan: can you make a dependently-typed language with good coinduction please?
20:18:56 <Taneb> It was then rediscovered by the punk movement in the 80's
20:19:27 <Taneb> oerjan, you can take a punt
20:19:32 <oerjan> Taneb: it was written on stone tablets found in punjab
20:19:43 * FireFly pours hot tea on oerjan C(__)`
20:20:01 <FireFly> (that is supposed to be a teapot)
20:20:23 <elliott> oerjan: I just want to write semantics with the partiality monad!
20:20:39 <Taneb> oerjan, my plot has been unspun!
20:20:40 <shachaf> elliott: "semantics"? what are you, conal?
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20:22:39 <oerjan> Taneb: i deciphered it with a lyapunov function
20:23:17 * boily wetly slaps oerjan with a damp and humid metasepia just to see what happens (FOR SCIENCE!)
20:24:38 <Taneb> ...I'm going to stop. I happun to think this has gone to far.
20:27:24 <oerjan> well it did now, when you started opun fake spellings
20:27:54 <Fiora> I think you're doing this on porpoise
20:28:13 <Fiora> even if it's just for the halibut, these puns are pretty crappie
20:28:43 <boily> I can't salmon the force to face this puns.
20:29:10 <boily> see, even my grammar is out of tuna. I need to go back to school.
20:30:27 <Fiora> it might be better if I clam up but I'm a bit shellfish when it comes to fintastic puns
20:30:27 <oerjan> hey wiktionary actually has a picture on the crappie page
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20:35:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, try harder. That was carp.
20:35:42 <boily> if you don't like them, you can skipper them.
20:36:24 <oerjan> what kind of language is this i'm herring
20:37:19 <Taneb> It's somewhat angler-saxon
20:37:45 <boily> eel be damned, that's what I was going to sail.
20:37:58 <oerjan> Taneb: i think we're trawling the bottom here
20:38:21 <Fiora> water you even saying, these puns are reely crayative
20:38:36 <boily> we can always fit moray of them.
20:39:13 <oerjan> no, i _really_ think this topic is floundering
20:40:38 <Fiora> i shrimply refuse to bereef it
20:41:20 <oerjan> this lobster meaning a page ago
20:42:43 <Fiora> i think it still has lobsta meaning
20:43:55 <oerjan> oh well at least we're krilling some time
20:44:02 <boily> ah, it's fin to sea this channel filled to the bream with bad puns.
20:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how these conversations always just end up being about how awful puns are starfish
20:47:03 <boily> now that we reached the pike of the subject, could someone quote the loach of it for posterity?
20:48:06 * Bike knocks over a table
20:48:09 * oerjan is suspicious of Phantom_Hoover's puns, they look fishy in the wrong way
20:48:22 <Bike> WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING YOU MOTHERFUCKERS
20:48:34 <boily> it happened once. leave it abalone once it's finished.
20:48:57 <Taneb> ...you can drink SHOTS of beer?
20:49:09 <oerjan> Taneb: yeah that's cannonical
20:49:16 <Phantom_Hoover> would you triplefin blenny think of Bike, he's suffering
20:49:33 <Bike> triplefin blenny what the FUCK
20:49:35 <Taneb> Alcohol has more to offer me than I thought
20:49:38 <pikhq> Shots of beer? What proof are you dealing with?
20:49:40 <boily> a woman needs a man like a bike needs a fish?
20:49:47 <Bike> those aren't even words
20:49:53 <oerjan> i haven't got a single of Phantom_Hoover's puns. is anyone sure they're real?
20:50:14 <oerjan> ok i guess i get the mackerel one
20:50:51 <Bike> you're just putting fish words in they don't evne make sense
20:51:08 <elliott> well Phantom_Hoover's puns are making me laugh the most
20:51:14 * Bike throws the table at Phantom_Hoover
20:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> thus deadlocking the pun thread while everyone else frantically tries to work it out
20:52:14 <elliott> in fact i am still laughing
20:52:34 <oerjan> triplefin blenny is probably valid cockney for something.
20:52:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover is blatantly the most cockney person here
20:54:08 <Bike> no it's not nothing is fairly conception there is no conception and NOTHING IS FAIR
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20:54:39 <oerjan> surprising ais523 didn't quit earlier
20:57:42 <Taneb> Nothing is conception and everything is permitted
20:58:19 <metasepia> conception definition: the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both.
20:58:31 <metasepia> Error (1): No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
20:58:31 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M4607643867718357546.show_M4607643867718357546'
20:58:31 <metasepia> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
20:58:31 <metasepia> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
20:58:31 <metasepia> Note: there are several potential instances:
20:58:31 <metasepia> instance GHC.Show.Show GHC.Types.Double
20:58:32 <metasepia> instance GHC.Show.Show GHC.Types.Float
20:58:33 <metasepia> instance (GHC.Real.Integral a, GHC.Show.Show a) =>
20:58:53 <oerjan> boily: ...you need defaulting rules.
20:59:17 <boily> what should I put in this case?
21:00:02 <boily> no can do for now.
21:00:10 <elliott> oh right. the opaque binary.
21:00:22 <elliott> you could make a ghc executable that comes before the real one in $PATH.
21:00:26 <elliott> and adds ExtendedDefaultingRules.
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21:16:02 <oerjan> <tromp_> yes, you proved that it's possible in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck#Computational_class
21:16:11 <oerjan> *GRUMBLE* i did that hth
21:16:37 <Taneb> Rule 1 of #esoteric:
21:16:42 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:17:31 <tromp_> sorry oerjan, i cldnt tell from the webpage
21:17:36 <oerjan> Taneb: i felt a little bad when someone else said they'd _almost_ showed emmental TC just after i put up my interpreter
21:18:33 <tromp_> all hail oerjan, completeness-prover-extraordinaire
21:19:49 <oerjan> tromp_: IT'S ALL IN THE PAGE HISTORY
21:19:57 * oerjan maybe should start crediting himself
21:20:19 <tromp_> yeah, i always read the whole history of every wiki page...
21:20:21 <oerjan> but i sort of like that the wiki is neutral speaker
21:20:59 <Bike> Emmental was proven TC by ørjan the eternal, enemy of the darkness
21:21:08 <elliott> oerjan: you can say that the work was done by oerjan
21:21:12 <elliott> maybe they will believe someone else wrote it up
21:21:19 <tromp_> btw, you can remove " Included with permission. " from the Nora primes.
21:22:22 <tromp_> no need for legalese...
21:23:19 <Taneb> tromp_, did you just...
21:23:39 <Taneb> did you just shorten Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
21:23:46 <oerjan> tromp_: well i needed to say it somewhere, maybe the edit summary would have been enough
21:24:25 <oerjan> tromp_: i'm sorry, but this is for your own good...
21:24:52 <tromp_> i hereby donate Nora prime sieve to the public domain
21:25:14 <tromp_> sorry again taneb for my shortening:(
21:25:19 <shachaf> can i be swatted a little bit
21:25:43 * oerjan swats shachaf with the spare --#
21:25:56 <shachaf> I don't get a full -----### ?
21:26:03 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the longest-named esolang I know of
21:26:06 <oerjan> you said "a little bit"
21:26:22 <shachaf> Some of my bathrooms have baths; the rest are restrooms.
21:26:38 <oerjan> Taneb: INTERCAL's official name is longer
21:26:46 <tromp_> i cant even be bothered to write out the full name of BLC...
21:27:09 <Taneb> > length "Compiler Language With No Pronouncable Acronym"
21:27:16 <Taneb> > length "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"
21:27:28 <tromp_> here's the rule: if you need to cut&paste the name of your language, then it is too long
21:27:42 <Taneb> tromp_, it's not too hard to type it out
21:28:09 <tromp_> if you had, we'd have seen a typo or two:)
21:28:17 <Taneb> Nah, I'm just good
21:28:27 <Bike> real fast nora's hair salon three: shear disaster download
21:28:34 <Taneb> (I actually am typing it out each time)
21:28:40 <FireFly> What kind of esolang is RFNHS3:SDD?
21:28:50 <boily> I think abbreviating Nora into 「リファノヘサスシディダ」 is better.
21:28:56 <Taneb> FireFly, haven't heard of it
21:28:58 <elliott> IMO kick anyone who abbreviates that language
21:29:01 <ion> tromp: I wouldn’t bother to copy and paste that if my hand wasn’t on the mouse already.
21:29:05 <oerjan> shachaf: don't be a loonie
21:29:22 <FireFly> Taneb: okay then, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
21:29:30 <Taneb> FireFly, it's functional
21:29:35 <Bike> elliot's o iso bjeectivel y correct
21:29:54 <oerjan> tromp_: we don't agree with that rule here around these parts.
21:30:16 <oerjan> tromp_: also i _don't_ need to cut&paste itflabtijtslwi.
21:30:30 <pikhq> boily: rihuānohesesusitèītà?
21:30:34 <Taneb> FireFly, basically lambda calculus with a really "nice and readable" syntax
21:31:11 <tromp_> basically a COBOLized lambda calculus
21:31:15 <Bike> pikhq: does japanese use graves now
21:31:26 <pikhq> Bike: If I'm Romanizing it.
21:31:26 <Taneb> Imagine if binary lambda calculus and BIT got married and had a child
21:32:11 <boily> pikhq: the first syllable of each word.
21:32:35 <pikhq> Bike: The string he put out there is impossible to romanize with any other defined romanization scheme.
21:32:57 <pikhq> Bike: Only way to do it would basically be with the random hacks used for Japanese input on keyboards.
21:33:00 <boily> I can't remember if it's ダ or ド for download.
21:33:14 <pikhq> Then it'd be something like "rifanohesesushidelida"
21:33:26 <pikhq> boily: It's ダウンロード, so ダ.
21:33:43 <Bike> imo, make an esolang that does computation through romanizing tangut
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21:36:46 <Bike> but i don't know tangut :(
21:37:27 <oerjan> it takes two to tangut
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21:56:56 <oerjan> although it's still sort of filler
22:01:25 <pikhq> Audio dithering is god damned silly.
22:02:05 -!- atehwa has joined.
22:02:09 <pikhq> The simple-but-effective way is to just add low-amplitude white noise.
22:02:28 * oerjan wonders if there's a bot that makes better puns than these
22:03:38 <oerjan> wait, maybe all humans are secretly punbots
22:03:51 <oerjan> fungot, are you a punbot?
22:04:11 <oerjan> mostly fungot is a runawaybot
22:04:26 <oerjan> fizzie: SOMEONE KILLED FUNGOT
22:04:35 <Bike> http://nothinginbiology.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/evo2012bingo.png So what does this sort of thing look like for CS and maths conferences
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22:05:34 <kmc> probably mostly the same
22:05:41 <oerjan> i dunno, but i would put "is easily seen" and "obvious" in any math ones
22:05:56 <Bike> yeah i figured you could switch out "Darwin (1859)" for "trivial"
22:06:14 <elliott> haha do people actually cite darwin like that
22:06:20 <kmc> programmers like to say something is "trivial" when it will require 250 hours of engineering effort but the basic idea is simple
22:06:32 <Bike> elliott: I've seen it. It's hilarious.
22:07:01 <elliott> just in case anyone's reading the latest evolution papers and wants to find out about this "darwin" guy's work
22:07:13 <Bike> Someday I'm going to cite Darwin (1881) and blow everybody's fucking mind
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22:07:34 <elliott> darwin did his most influential computer science work in 1881
22:07:51 <Bike> 1881 is when he wrote his book on worm shit
22:07:53 <kmc> The Formation of Vegetable Mould through the Action of Worms would be a good name for an album
22:08:06 <kmc> it's sort of like The Mysterious Production of Eggs
22:08:06 <elliott> that would actually be a terrible name for an album
22:08:15 <doesthiswork> hah, I knew my biology major was good for something
22:08:25 <kmc> oh sorry it's "The Formation of Vegetable Mould through the Action of Worms, with Observations on their Habits"
22:08:29 <elliott> doesthiswork: don't try and comfort Bike
22:08:35 <elliott> he needs to know how futile it is
22:08:35 <Bike> interestingly Formation of Vegetable Moulds is actually very interesting
22:08:48 <Bike> not what you'd expect from a book about which direction worms pull leaves into their burrows
22:08:55 <oerjan> oh she was already dead then
22:08:56 <elliott> the only thing more useless than a biology degree is a speech recognition researcher
22:09:14 <Bike> oerjan: also wasn't lovelace's thing like a translation
22:09:23 <Koen_> oerjan: how's my timing today, uh?
22:09:27 <Bike> or a ltter, i forget
22:09:29 <elliott> doesthiswork: I hope they make you feel better about yourself
22:09:59 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01312010
22:10:06 <Koen_> what's a speech recognition researcher?
22:10:31 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earthworm_klitellum_copulation_beentree.jpg hot
22:10:40 <Fiora> elliott: but I like trying to comfort bike
22:10:45 * Koen_ was imagining some guy analyzing speeches in a way similar to how some people analyze handwriting
22:10:58 <elliott> Fiora: ok well you can tell him stories about speech recognition. that is acceptable
22:11:03 <Bike> kmc: fun fact darwin's book on emotions was one of the first books to include photographs http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/engage_academics/impact/narratives/images/eema4.jpg
22:11:05 <doesthiswork> the ladies love a man you knows that much about oral production
22:11:24 <kmc> Bike: hahahaha
22:11:44 <kmc> that's him?
22:12:00 <kmc> just some guy who also has a prodigious beard
22:12:10 <Bike> this is him: http://images.arcadja.com/charles_darwin-the_expression_of_the_emotions_in_man~OMd4b300~10001_20071014_15400_4646.jpg
22:12:18 <Bike> best plate in history imo
22:12:55 <doesthiswork> troll face is one of the primative primate signals
22:13:00 <elliott> picture of charles darwin: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Oscar_Wilde_portrait.jpg/220px-Oscar_Wilde_portrait.jpg
22:13:35 <Bike> kmc: i'm pretty disappointed that those terms aren't actually composting things.
22:13:50 <kmc> are you a person who knows about compost
22:14:05 <Bike> no i just wanted "open Tanoku matrix" to be real
22:17:35 <Bike> "I have just received such a Box full from Mr Bateman with the astounding Angræcum sesquipedalia with a nectary a foot long— Good Heavens what insect can suck it" thinking i need to read darwin's letters
22:18:01 <kmc> did you see http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/10/18/163181524/charles-darwin-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-day
22:18:44 <Bike> btw the answer to his question was apparently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NHM_Xanthopan_morgani.jpg which is horrifying
22:19:24 <kmc> did darwin do any mushroom biology
22:20:19 <kmc> fungi are so weird, i think they're the least well studied kingdom by far
22:20:20 <Bike> Let's see... no I think he mostly did botany, sucks.
22:20:42 <Bike> I guess I can't blame him. Like, Origin of Species was literally written before the germ theory of disease, what the fuck.
22:24:25 <pikhq> Given how little was known at the time, Darwin was really quite impressive.
22:25:19 <Bike> Even without having any idea of microbiology, he mentioned the possibility of parasitic worms and fungi evolving, like wow dude.
22:25:39 <doesthiswork> that's what 50 years of makeing sure it makes sense does for you
22:26:16 <pikhq> Yup. He figured it out just by inferring very well.
22:30:36 <zzo38> Yes, he was pretty good at it. Now that we actually have such science, though, our science improved to be better than Darwin's stuff.
22:30:37 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:30:41 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1d 1h 26m 47s ago: are you into alchemy
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22:32:00 <Bike> Well, yeah, Darwin's theory of how heredity actually worked is pretty fucking funny
22:32:59 <zzo38> Darwin certainly did make a lot of mistakes, though; but, so do a lot of people.
22:33:35 <zzo38> Now I wrote about a #% command in Esoteric Verilog to specify faulty components which have a given probability to give the correct answer instead of always working correctly.
22:34:23 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> fungi are so weird, i think they're the least well studied kingdom by far
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22:35:10 <hagb4rdoux> high there! isn't that kalbrenners most awesome track? just enjoyous..(you may know one of the brothers - both music makers, bu also bot solo-artist
22:35:17 <hagb4rdoux> .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2hCo6X-1YcY#t=0s)
22:35:20 <hagb4rdoux> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2hCo6X-1YcY#t=0s
22:35:23 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah maybe
22:35:32 <kmc> I sort of meant relative to complexity and variety
22:35:34 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: that's not really a kingdom so much as a miscellaneous dump :/
22:37:03 * hagb4rdoux like died afte typing ít, leaving some riddles for futures archeologists
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22:37:17 <fizzie> fungot: Try to stay alive there.
22:37:17 <fungot> fizzie: ( twb: except " initialization" is fnord
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22:38:25 <hagb4rd> -- well that would be fair: the movie "berlin calling" .. if you've seen it you know him
22:39:19 <hagb4rd> he kinda played himself, after just consulting the regisseur they just did by one take :P
22:42:12 <hagb4rd> damn! how can i be sooo wrong? heres the correct link
22:42:13 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2hCo6X-1YcY#t=720s
22:45:30 <zzo38> I read in some book about a experiment to distinguish many-worlds from Copenhagen. To me, the experiment described seems impossible.
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22:45:52 <zzo38> (Other than that the experiment looks OK, though.)
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22:48:21 <zzo38> I do not have that book with me right now, and I do not entirely remember, but it involves making the experiment entirely reversing itself and everything involved; that also includes whoever did the experiment, and if he gives the result to someone then it must involve them too; if he write it or put in the computer, it involves that paper/computer too, etc
22:49:03 <Bike> Sounds tractable
22:52:24 <oerjan> so basically a quantum erasure experiment taken to macroscopic level?
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23:28:19 <Sgeo> I broke the build :(
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23:31:07 <kmc> don't break the build
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23:31:35 <kmc> Sgeo: does your company have a funny hat or a cardboard cutout of justin bieber or a vat of acid or other such zany tradition for punishing people who break the build
23:32:02 <kmc> "Fools! You kill only a man."
23:32:09 <monqy> did sgeo break the build
23:32:54 <shachaf> we've all broken the build in our time
23:33:00 <Sgeo> There was an email sent to several people about it. It's kind of embarrassing. Especially after my boss said the prior day to just make sure it builds, and commit it.
23:33:29 <shachaf> oerjan: imo make this channel +c
23:33:30 <kmc> shachaf: uh I use dynamic langugaes, there is no build to break, that's why they are better
23:34:12 <elliott> Sgeo: so whats the story behind committing & pushing this commit without checking it builds
23:34:24 <Bike> Anyone ever heard of someone losing their doctorate before?
23:35:00 <kmc> for cheating
23:35:09 <Sgeo> It built and ran fine on my machine. But running it uses the 'local' profile, which I guess whatever automated process is used for checking that revisions build doesn't, or something
23:35:25 <Bike> like after actually getting it
23:35:33 <Bike> i'd never heard of it before
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23:35:50 <Sgeo> (Well, I guess it technically built fine but didn't run)
23:35:51 <oerjan> plagiarism can make that happen
23:35:56 <Bike> also «A German professor who claims to have developed “a self-consistent field theory which is used to derive at all known interactions of the potential vortex” will have at least two papers retracted, thanks to the scrutiny of a concerned economist» nooooo vortices
23:36:05 <Bike> oerjan: yeah that's what happened in the case i was looking at
23:36:12 <kmc> economists ruin everything, am i right
23:36:20 <Bike> but according to random internet person, "Pretty sure people have been hanged for much less than it takes for someone to lose their PhD"
23:36:33 <oerjan> kmc: well they have the theory of ruin, they should be good at it
23:36:55 <Bike> To give you a glimpse of this: According to this paper, magnetic “scalar waves” (an invention of Meyl unknown in temporary physics) emanate from the DNA of human cells and bring these cells in resonance with each other, their environment, and other human beings. This, according to Meyl, explains not only epigenetics, but also the workings of telepathy, telekinesis, and the human “aura”. Moreover, it reveals why love will never be measu
23:36:55 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I am now convinced that, whatever the merits or lack thereof of dynamic typing, the stupidity of dynamic typing PEOPLE makes it suck
23:37:50 <kmc> Sgeo: anyone who's committed enough to dynamic typing to be a "dynamic typing person" might be dumb yeah
23:37:55 <kmc> and likewise for "static typing person"
23:38:02 <kmc> but plenty of smart people use dynamic languages
23:38:05 <Gregor> Bike: PhDs aren't revoked. It just isn't done. If that idiot Behe still has a PhD, no one can ever lose one.
23:38:26 <Bike> Gregor: this person gave his up semi-voluntarily so I was wondering about it.
23:38:32 <monqy> i misread Behe as Bike at first
23:38:34 * Sgeo was more referring to this tendency to think it's a good idea to make clients check what type something is
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23:38:51 <Sgeo> As in, APIs that return a collection unless there would be one item in the collection, in which case it returns the item
23:38:54 <Sgeo> That sort of thing
23:38:54 <Bike> "Michael J. Behe (pron.: /ˈbiːhiː/ bee-hee; born January 18, 1952) is an American biochemist, author, and intelligent design advocate."
23:39:06 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah that's bad
23:39:16 <kmc> a lot of people who use dynamic languages will agree that is bad
23:40:17 <Gregor> Bike: That last bit is the relevant part.
23:40:32 <Bike> Gregor: so i gathered
23:40:33 <Bike> «We’ve asked Meyl — who sells various equipment, including a 3,600-euro device that allows users to “construct an energy transmission line according to Tesla” — for comment and will update with anything we learn.»
23:40:49 <Sgeo> It's in a library at work, it's in Clojure, I think it used to be in Python
23:40:51 <Sgeo> Thatn sort of thing, I mean
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23:41:23 <FireFly> Sgeo: an old version of `splice` from the JS standard library did that >.<
23:42:09 <Bike> "In one case, my adviser’s name ended up on a paper describing work that she had actually forbade me to do. She was going for tenure at the time." i keep reading about academia...
23:42:10 <oerjan> Bike: "it reveals why love will never be measu"
23:42:16 <Bike> oerjan: measured.
23:42:33 <oerjan> darn i was so sure it was some other word
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00:16:56 <elliott> Bike_: btw you got cut off at "why love will never be measu"
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00:21:59 <Bike> measu more like ceaușescu
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00:25:44 <elliott> Gregor: that behe guy's page is sad http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/faculty/behe.html
00:25:55 <elliott> Gregor: "My ideas about irreducible complexity and intelligent design are entirely my own. They certainly are not in any sense endorsed by either Lehigh University in general or the Department of Biological Sciences in particular. In fact, most of my colleagues in the Department strongly disagree with them."
00:26:49 <Gregor> elliott: The university itself has a page summarily disavowing all connections with his views.
00:27:09 <Bike> typical liberal censorship
00:27:54 <Bike> "Such a research credit system would have huge benefits for one’s career prospects; and it might encourage more effective collaborations. Moreover, these credits could easily be tracked by scientist or project in a database akin to the Internet Movie Database (IMDB). It could provide an alternative to the ever-so-important citation factors as a means of assessing one’s scientific impact. And maybe one day there will even be an Academy Awar
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00:28:31 <pikhq> How did I not know about this fellow before.
00:28:39 <Bike> ds of Science.
00:28:52 * Bike curses, loads splitlong.pl
00:29:21 <elliott> this behe guy seems more pitiful than anything
00:29:23 <Gregor> elliott: http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/news/evolution.htm
00:29:31 <elliott> Behe has testified in several court cases related to intelligent design, including the court case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District that resulted in a ruling that intelligent design was religious in nature.[2]
00:29:45 <Gregor> elliott: I love its use of scare quotes, btw.
00:29:46 <elliott> can't imagine he is doing very much that furthers the ID cause all in all
00:29:52 <pikhq> How do you know *biochem* and think it's intelligently designed?
00:30:15 <pikhq> I mean damn, biology is the least intelligent thing.
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00:30:38 <elliott> Gregor: man it must be real awkward in that department
00:31:00 <pikhq> Tenure is amazing.
00:31:05 <Bike> so uh none of his papers appear to be very biochem
00:31:18 <Bike> he published one in "God and Design: The Teleological Argument and Modern Science"
00:31:47 <Gregor> Bike: Ever since he became all stupid-ID, he has a total of one peer-reviewed paper in a legitimate journal.
00:31:51 <Bike> dare i look at the paper he put a pdf of up?
00:32:03 <zzo38> Maybe it is what it seems to someone, whether it seems to be intelligently designed to you or completely stupid designed.
00:32:05 <Bike> i'm thinking no
00:32:25 <zzo38> I don't know for sure, of course; this is just a guess.
00:32:47 <Bike> unrelated «A team of scientists can verify that their 5-year long DNA study, currently under peer-review, confirms the existence of a novel hominin hybrid species, commonly called “Bigfoot” or “Sasquatch,” living in North America. Researchers’ extensive DNA sequencing suggests that the legendary Sasquatch is a human relative that arose approximately 15,000 years ago as a hybrid cross of modern Homo sapiens with an unknown ...
00:32:53 <Bike> ... primate species.»
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00:34:06 <zzo38> I read in some book, that it is illegal to kill a Sasquatch in British Columbia. If it exists, it must be rare and therefore endangered species to I suppose it makes sense whether or not it exists, by using this logic.
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00:37:31 <Bike> Actually the person said that governments should immediately recognize sasquatches as indigenous peoples
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00:52:00 <zzo38> Science does not show you whether or not God made up the world and stuff anyways; it only shows you how indirect it is.
00:52:08 <Sgeo> I just realized why the library in question emits objects when there's only 1, rather than an array containing the object... and it's not the fault of Cablevision's wrapper around the library.
00:52:17 <Sgeo> I blame Cablevision's wrapper for a lot of things, but not this.
00:55:09 <oerjan> "During the time of their association, Livingstone urged Sechele to make peace with the uncle who ruled the other half of the Kwêna. Sechele sent his uncle a gift of gunpowder. The uncle was suspicious of the gift and set fire to it. His death in the resulting explosion enabled Sechele to reunite the tribe."
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01:00:39 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiratard/comments/1bo6tm/the_onion_popular_childrens_book_author_reveals/
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01:09:46 <monqy> NO MEME POSTINGS -- except as comments here: The Official Conspiratard Memes Thread
01:09:51 <monqy> sgeo why are you on reddit
01:11:58 <shachaf> sgeo are you on reddit again.......
01:12:35 * Sgeo star-heart-horseshoe reddit
01:13:47 <shachaf> "meme" means a picture with some text on top of it right??
01:14:22 <oerjan> shachaf: oh god you may be right
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01:14:49 <oerjan> it might actually have got that as its common meaning
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01:17:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well maybe we'll get mad scientists as a result (see: the miracle of science comic)
01:18:39 <Bike> the original concept is silly enough that it's hard to feel bad about it being co-opted into whatever the fuck reddit does, except that i don't like reddit more than i don't like dawkins. a dilemma
01:24:29 <kmc> would you say that the word "meme" is............ a meme?!?!?
01:26:31 * Sgeo is actually quite active on Reddit
01:27:03 <Sgeo> (Doctor Who spoilers)
01:27:09 <Sgeo> (If you try to Reddit stalk me)
01:27:49 <kmc> "There are decent Redditors, they just don't understand how much fun they could be having driving the scum from their shores."
01:28:31 <Bike> best spoiler warning ever
01:28:50 <Bike> i'm really quite active on reddit (spoiler warning for John's Bells)
01:29:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: why would i "try to Reddit stalk" you
01:29:09 <shachaf> we know every last detail of your life from this channel
01:29:33 <Sgeo> No you don't. (Although many details not on here are also not on Reddit)
01:29:48 <monqy> name one thing we don't know
01:29:54 <Bike> sgeo, international man of mystery
01:30:27 <Sgeo> I've mentioned my height
01:30:48 <elliott> where he works and information about their proprietary codebase
01:31:39 <shachaf> #esoteric, more like #sgeoconfessional
01:31:41 <Fiora> his height is 1.026 fiorameters
01:31:50 <Bike> that's pretty short.
01:31:57 <shachaf> how many meters are there in a fiorameter
01:32:08 <Fiora> (it's like a smoot or something)
01:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i assume everyone in this channel is either physically stunted or scandinavian
01:32:28 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: um, she said fiorameter
01:32:32 <shachaf> fiorametre is something else
01:32:41 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i'm actually a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_aliens
01:32:55 <elliott> who the hell measures height in metres
01:33:03 <elliott> like ok come on imperial system sucks the most
01:33:11 <elliott> but how tall is even a metre?? nobody knows
01:33:14 <shachaf> height is measured in meters not metres hth
01:33:17 <Fiora> um, I mean, I measure in centimeters, but meters/cm are kinda the same thing really?
01:33:26 <Bike> We put forward a practice perspective on absorptive capacity. We illustrate this by network congregating, i.e. repeatedly exchanging face-to-face ideas at interorganizational venues such as conferences, which Intel Corporation attends as a leading member of the semiconductor industry network SEMATECH.
01:33:31 <Fiora> I mean, they're trivially convertible
01:33:46 <shachaf> not when you're using base 12
01:34:01 <elliott> sorry but I live in the UK and we like to have at least one stupid exception to every rule. in this case, the exception is that we measure height in feet & inches even though nobody really uses them for anything else except old people
01:34:10 <Fiora> elliott: and you measure weight
01:34:14 <Bike> elliott: Do you still use km/h for vehicular speeds
01:34:19 <Fiora> what in the I don't even why
01:34:35 <elliott> Bike: we measure long distances in miles
01:34:38 * Bike stones Phantom_Hoover
01:34:43 <elliott> Fiora: well I use kg for weight actually
01:34:45 <shachaf> elliott: wait do you actually use stone
01:34:45 <Bike> elliott: aw man that's way too consistently inconsistent
01:34:51 <elliott> because I draw the line at figuring out how much a stone is
01:34:54 <Bike> kilograms NOW we're talking
01:35:12 <Fiora> I measure my weight in platinum-iridium cylinders
01:35:21 <Bike> kilograms are nice because a kilometer is literally defined as "how massy this one particular object in France is"
01:35:23 <pikhq> I have no fucking clue how much a stone is.
01:35:32 <pikhq> Pounds work, kilograms work, but stone?
01:35:42 <Fiora> I think a stone is like 6.something kg?
01:35:52 <Fiora> oh. 14 pounds. what. why 14.
01:36:03 <Bike> Welcome to imperial measurement!
01:36:08 <Bike> Here's your hogshead of ale
01:36:11 <pikhq> Probably because the king's favorite stone happened to be 14 pounds.
01:36:13 <Fiora> it's like. it has different bases for every conversation factor
01:36:25 <kmc> the reason why british people can never make fun of americans for having dumb units
01:36:36 <Bike> (a hogshead is 238.480942 liters i hope you like alcohol)
01:36:58 <shachaf> imo the best unit of measurement is the bloit
01:37:02 <pikhq> Bike: Only some hogsheads are 238.480942 L.
01:37:29 <shachaf> bloit: the distance the king's favourite pet can run in one hour
01:37:34 <Bike> Only the greatest hogsheads can aspire to be 238.480942 liters
01:37:45 <pikhq> Which hogshead unit to use depends on what you're *measuring*.
01:37:46 <Fiora> I still can't get over how columbus thought he could sail to the East Indies because he miscalculated the earth's circumference...
01:37:52 <Fiora> because he used the wrong "mile" unit
01:38:15 * kmc is 6'3" tall and not scandinavian
01:38:33 <Fiora> are you descended from redwoods
01:38:48 * pikhq is 5'11" tall and part scandinavian
01:39:01 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think my primary datapoint in this was, uh... elliott
01:39:56 <elliott> i think i may have grown a bit
01:39:57 <Fiora> what's medieval height?
01:39:58 <kmc> no i think i'm decended from british people and german people and maybe irish people?
01:40:01 <kmc> "white people"
01:40:16 <shachaf> elliott: i thought you were school isn't school tall
01:40:38 <elliott> and I can't check now because it would ruin the mystery
01:40:39 <Fiora> you... don't know? XD
01:40:41 <kmc> it's time for a heartwarming lesson about how short people and tall people each have unique advantages in life
01:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> my dad assures me my extended family is all short due to malnutrition
01:40:45 <Fiora> is this like, quantum height?
01:40:52 <Fiora> like, if you don't measure it, it's not decided yet?
01:41:08 <kmc> Fiora: that's my approach to my weight at the moment :X
01:41:21 <Bike> man fiora i forget my fucking age, can't you forgive someone not knowing how much taller than you they are
01:41:36 <kmc> i used to be like 200 lbs, which was pretty much fine, but then chipotle opened next door to work...
01:41:40 <Fiora> Bike: I'm teasing and being silly
01:42:10 <Bike> no but we depreciate
01:42:10 <Fiora> they totally do, you have to replace them after a while right?
01:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> if elliott measures his height he'll just become uncertain about the speed he's growing
01:42:35 <Phantom_Hoover> which carries the risk that he will shrink into nothing
01:42:38 <kmc> i got drunk and fixed my bike the other day
01:42:45 <kmc> still needs 1 more fix though
01:42:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: some say this has already happened
01:44:35 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:46:19 <Bike> oh it's a west african language
01:46:39 <elliott> so when will Bike have to be replaced
01:47:23 <shachaf> kmc will get drunk and fix him
01:47:25 <oerjan> `frink 1 barn megaparsec
01:47:30 <Bike> I'm on a rolling replacement schedule. Parts of me will be replaced all the time, even as you're talking to me
01:47:38 <HackEgo> 0.0000030856775813057289536 m^3 (volume)
01:52:36 <oerjan> Bike: do you contain pieces from the ship of theseus?
01:52:54 <HackEgo> 1/1000 (exactly 0.001) m^3 (volume)
01:52:59 <Bike> oerjan: wasn't that destroyed by like a billion years ago
01:53:03 <oerjan> wait _are_ you the ship of theseus
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01:53:20 <Bike> wasn't I destroyed like a billion years ago
01:53:23 <pikhq> Small, but usable.
01:53:32 <oerjan> Bike: possibly. are you being whooshed?
01:53:38 <nooodl_> `frink 1 knot / hertz * newton / pascal
01:53:49 <HackEgo> 463/900 (approx. 0.5144444444444445) m^3 (volume)
01:54:09 <pikhq> `frink 1 mile/gallon
01:54:15 <nooodl_> knotN/HzPa: the best unit??
01:54:18 <HackEgo> 48000000000/112903 (approx. 425143.707430272) m^-2 (unknown unit type)
01:54:58 <HackEgo> 8/3 (approx. 2.6666666666666665)
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02:01:50 <oerjan> "Writing for ArtReview, Sam Jacob noted that Sugababes, one of the most successful all-female British bands of the 21st century,[8] "were formed in 1998 [..] but one by one they left, till by September 2009 none of the founders remained in the band; each had been replaced by another member, just like the planks of Theseus’s boat."[9][10] Echoing Hobbes' discussion on the discarded planks, the three original members reformed in 2011 under the name Mu
02:02:19 <oerjan> Mutya Keisha Siobhan, with the "original" Sugababes still in existence."
02:02:50 <oerjan> it's actually just their first names
02:03:51 <ion> oerjan: mkdir ~/.irssi/scripts && ln -s . ~/.irssi/scripts/autorun && ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong ~/.irssi/scripts/
02:04:09 <ion> oerjan: ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong.pl ~/.irssi/scripts/
02:04:15 <ion> /script load splitlong
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03:00:17 <kmc> http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/
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03:06:29 <Bike> The myth: A lot of people blame poor collision detection for this problem. That is simply not true. The collision detection in E.T. is perfect. There are no bounding boxes like in more modern games. Collision detection happens at the pixel level. You can't get any better than that. If you fall in to a well, it's because your player character visually overlaps it.
03:07:20 <Fiora> that is... actually really cool O_O
03:07:34 <Fiora> mods like that are always really impressive, though I think my favorite are the pokemon 'mods'
03:07:57 <kmc> what do they do?
03:08:03 <Fiora> there's literally total conversions of pokemon that add entire new regions, tons of new pokemon, non-midi (i.e. recorded) background music
03:08:16 <Fiora> and redo the entire type system and battle logic
03:08:34 <Fiora> and it still works on a GBA
03:08:45 <Bike> oh yeah one of my friends played Pokemon Quartz or whatever it was
03:08:50 <Fiora> like, they even changed the size of the cartridge
03:08:53 <Bike> very weird to see
03:08:55 <pikhq> Oh, good, actually works on real hardware.
03:09:08 <pikhq> The SNES world has stupid shit like people writing patches for ZSNES.
03:09:18 <pikhq> Which is, uh, ludicrous.
03:09:28 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FwJjJlESzY
03:09:30 <Bike> is pikhq secretly the bsnes guy
03:09:34 <Fiora> (example I guess?)
03:09:41 <pikhq> Bike: No, I just am a BSNES fan.
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03:10:25 <elliott> Players looking for additional challenge above game mode 3, but not quite as challenging as game mode 2 (with the nasty FBI Agent) have always felt left out.
03:10:36 <Bike> Fiora: I was half expecting that to go into Touhou danmaku
03:11:02 <Bike> ...are these vocals
03:11:14 <Fiora> the quality isn't that great, but it's a GBA
03:11:17 <Bike> I didn't even know GBA sound could do that
03:11:52 <Fiora> I didn't know either
03:11:54 <Fiora> and then I saw this <.<
03:13:19 <Bike> how long is this song holy hell
03:13:39 <Fiora> they have multiple tracks too, replacing various themes apparently
03:13:46 <Fiora> and they only increased the cart from like 16 to 32MB (?!)
03:14:05 <Fiora> I wonder what they did, like, I doubt the GBA can decode mp3 O_O
03:14:21 <Bike> half their attacks are ohks. i don't remember the elite four being this fast >:
03:14:22 <Fiora> could just be low sample rate/mono I guess
03:14:34 <Bike> well i mean the DS could barely manage vocals right
03:14:45 <Bike> twewy's sound quality was... not so good
03:15:40 <zzo38> All official software for Nintendo DS has to use the official ARM7 codes but homebrew softwares may have their own ARM7 codes so that you can do some limited parallel processing and stuff
03:16:00 <pikhq> The GBA is actually probably quite capable of decoding MP3.
03:16:13 <pikhq> No, I was looking at the DS specs
03:16:57 <pikhq> I think you could pull off an MP2 decoder on that.
03:17:33 <Fiora> you'd need some fixed point madness too, probably XD
03:18:09 <Bike> but could you do that while also performing the tortorous calculations of a pokeyman battle
03:19:04 <zzo38> If it is a homebrew program you might be able to, possibly
03:19:22 <pikhq> Listening to the actual audio though, it sounds like it's mu-law at a decent sampling rate.
03:19:57 <Fiora> ah, so not even like adpcm, even simpler
03:20:14 <pikhq> Gets reasonable audio performance though.
03:20:36 <pikhq> Particularly if you're willing to shove it at, like, 16kHz or more.
03:20:56 <pikhq> 128kbps audio if it's 8-bit 16kHz mu-law.
03:21:30 <pikhq> You're not going to have a *ton* of this stuff in the game like that, but you've definitely got room.
03:21:57 <Bike> they probably splurged for the final boss.
03:23:04 <pikhq> And as far as the sound output goes, you can rather reasonably shove PCM out of it.
03:23:38 <pikhq> And that game with barely done vocals on the DS? That's probably just incompetence.
03:24:09 <Bike> They had a lot of movie cutscenes too, maybe they didn't have room.
03:26:24 <madbr> it does 32 channels of adpcm I think with the normal "bios"
03:26:25 <lambdabot> madbr: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:26:27 <zzo38> Why should they need so many movie cutscenes? They shouldn't need a lot of high-quality recorded music either (you can use a simple sound generator).
03:26:50 <madbr> streaming music is boring anyways
03:27:06 <Bike> zzo38: It had a lot of rap.
03:27:38 <kmc> cool, the chinese spammers have moved on from trying to sell me wire mesh
03:27:44 <kmc> now they want to sell me 'double wire binding machine, double wire forming machine, automatic punching machine, etc'
03:27:54 <kmc> an automatic punching machine WOULD be pretty useful
03:29:45 <kmc> Punching speed: 4200/5400(times/hour)
03:30:04 <Sgeo> automatic circumcisers? matching salt and pepper shakers?
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03:30:11 <Bike> they'd better have actually provided that figure kmc
03:30:31 <kmc> well i trascribed it wrong, it was "4200-5400"
03:30:50 <Bike> i wouldn't invest in an automatic punching machine unless i knew was getting at LEAST 3000 punches/hr
03:31:40 <kmc> it's a big Internet and it will take a long time to punch everyone on it
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03:33:16 <elliott> i'll sign up for the kmc punch
03:34:51 <kmc> form a line to the throne
03:37:21 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, DS games had a ton of room
03:37:27 <Fiora> the biggest DS cartridge is actually pokemon black/white, I think
03:39:32 <madbr> how fast is the DS's first core?
03:40:09 <pikhq> Not *enormously* fast, but fast enough to do some decent audio decompression.
03:40:22 <madbr> mp2/mpc is like only half the size of adpcm
03:40:32 <madbr> for like 100x the cpu usage
03:40:48 <madbr> I guess it's ok if the cpu is doing, like, nothing else
03:40:55 <madbr> and it's only one sound at the time
03:41:53 <madbr> mp3 is even slower due to the added mdct
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03:42:19 <madbr> and ogg has even larger MDCTs
03:42:30 <pikhq> There's a reason I was suggesting MP2. :)
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03:43:13 <kmc> do you mean vorbis
03:43:21 <pikhq> kmc: One presumes.
03:43:31 <Bike> ogg is the container format, I thouht?
03:43:38 <madbr> yeah I know ogg is the container format
03:43:51 <kmc> ogg speex and ogg flac files are pretty common I think
03:43:51 <pikhq> Vorbis is not Ogg.
03:43:58 <Bike> "in this conversation about technical aspects of music storage formats i was being nontechnical"
03:44:01 <kmc> also ogg video files with whatever audio codec as well
03:44:07 <pikhq> kmc: What's a bit more common is Vorbis in not-Ogg.
03:44:11 <Bike> anyway i like that they're named after an obscure discworld character
03:44:20 <pikhq> For instance, WebM.
03:44:21 <madbr> pikhq: yes ogg is the container format. but it doesn't matter because ogg is only used for vorbis anyways
03:44:30 <kmc> which is derived from matroshka?
03:44:31 <pikhq> madbr: OGM, anyone?
03:44:39 <kmc> madbr: but that's not true and anyway, why not say the correct thing
03:44:42 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, it's a subset of Matroska.
03:45:12 <madbr> if they called the extension .vorbis, I'd call it vorbis
03:45:25 <madbr> they named the files .ogg so that stuck, fine with me
03:45:26 <pikhq> madbr: That's like saying "MKV" when you mean h.264.
03:45:44 <pikhq> Or "AVI" when you mean DivX.
03:45:59 <madbr> everybody calls vorbis "ogg"
03:46:19 <pikhq> Look at the channel you're in.
03:46:21 <madbr> nitpicking on that is pretentious
03:46:29 <pikhq> Look at the channel you're in.
03:46:33 <zzo38> Ogg container format is use for a few other things too, and I think Ogg is a much better container format than Matroska anyways. For additional data you should have multiple streams; however many you need for the extra data, and then exclude whatever you don't want.
03:46:33 <kmc> i don't deny that i'm being pedantic
03:46:41 <kmc> but I think it's appropriate
03:46:44 <kmc> in context
03:46:56 <kmc> i don't care
03:47:17 <kmc> you may resume your discussion of DCT sizes or whatever
03:47:50 <madbr> yeah irl they mostly use mpc/mp3/ogg (vorbis, whatever) on platforms that have limited bandwidth
03:48:04 <madbr> ie optical media (CDs, blue rays, DVDs)
03:48:17 <madbr> on iphone it's actually not worth it
03:49:25 <madbr> adpcm is twice as large but it's 1/10th the CPU usage
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03:52:40 <madbr> incidentally it's also much, much, much easier to implement in hardware, which is why a lot of platforms had it too
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04:34:50 <Sgeo> Vault uses unsafePerformIO
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04:35:08 <Sgeo> I was hoping there was a 'pure' way to do that sort of arbitrary type data store
04:35:12 <Bike_> gotta go fast *obnoxiously distorted Sonic music*
04:35:42 <elliott> vault uses unsafeCoerce, not unsafePerformIO
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04:36:08 <elliott> anyway you need to add a primitive typed name supply where equality gives evidence of type equality e.g. Typeable is actually fulfilling this role
04:36:13 <elliott> then you can build everything else on top of that
04:36:30 <shachaf> hang on hang on what's going on here "this look good"
04:36:32 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF9CS3L_ezw
04:36:48 <shachaf> i gotta get in on this hi monqy business
04:36:56 <Sgeo> https://github.com/HeinrichApfelmus/vault/blob/master/src/Data/Vault/ST/Pure_Lazy.hs#L30
04:37:36 <elliott> i agree that one specific file has unsafePerformIO in it, not sure why this would prevent you from reading the other files with more canonical implementations than the IORef hack
04:38:04 <Sgeo> Because I thought the file named 'Pure' would be the purest implementation
04:38:05 <elliott> (actually the IORef connection is fairly deep -- a supply of these name things is fundamentally what ST gives you)
04:38:25 <elliott> (Vault and ST are roughly the same thing)
04:38:40 <elliott> (you can implement an ST transformer as a state transformer using Vault and some other stuff, etc.)
04:39:55 * Sgeo reads http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/blog/2011/09/04-vault.html
04:40:01 <kmc> Sgeo: in hdis86 the file named Pure is the one with the pure interface, and consequentially the most unsafePerformWhatever implementation
04:40:08 <elliott> that post probably won't help you understand the primitives underlying this kind of thing
04:40:57 <shachaf> monqy: its the "monqy cheeer"
04:42:11 <shachaf> monqy: have you played the neverhood
04:42:41 <monqy> havent you asked me that at least twice before
04:43:25 <shachaf> maybe i asked the 'old you"
04:43:35 <zzo38> IORef allows you to make (f :: ContT () IO x -> IO [x]) such that (f (return x) = return [x]) from what I can see. It seems to be the only case with ContT with IO monad; not with any other monads, as far as I can tell (except Finalize, which is trivial).
04:43:38 <shachaf> remember, you can't step in the same river twice, monqy
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04:58:39 <oerjan> shachaf: except the ankh, i just learned from that ship of theseus article
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05:21:48 <btiffin> Idea; The programming language with the most easter eggs.
05:22:36 <zzo38> You can write on the esolang wiki list of ideas if you want to
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05:29:22 <btiffin> Did, under Looks Like. I'll accept opinions on the cbrain article too. Just to get a feel for expectations.
05:29:42 <zzo38> Cont r IO x -> r -> IO (r, [x]) works too, I think, other than what I wrote above.
05:29:54 <btiffin> How much time should be spent on the useless? :-)
05:30:37 <zzo38> btiffin: I think the answer is :-)
05:33:01 <btiffin> Anyone try X10? I'm one make rule away from integration with OpenCOBOL, but wonder if that experiment should be suffered to live.
05:33:16 <Bike> is that like x11
05:33:33 <btiffin> Nope, IBM Java umm C++ err thingy
05:33:42 <Bike> "X10 is a protocol for communication among electronic devices used for home automation (domotics)."?
05:34:47 <btiffin> Yeah, it's used a lot, sorry. I mean this one http://x10-lang.org/
05:35:21 <pikhq> X10 is a really low-bandwidth protocol as I recall.
05:36:03 <pikhq> 20 bits per second
05:36:14 <btiffin> Emits Java and C++, which means mucking about in the build chain with extern "C" when I want to play with COBOL
05:36:18 <Bike> "X10 provides Java-like productivity with Java or C++ interoperability" i have no idea what this means
05:36:45 <btiffin> X10 emits either C++ and or Java
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05:38:04 <btiffin> I only care about the C side really, never buying into the sandbox and being denied programmer hardware access.
05:38:42 <pikhq> It's not really correct to say "C gives you hardware access" if you're writing compliant C though...
05:39:04 <pikhq> ISO standard C is rather different from what people pretend C is.
05:39:20 <Bike> but C has Blazing Fast Speed pikhq
05:40:01 <zzo38> Of course it won't give you hardware access if you are writing a portable program.
05:40:05 <pikhq> C-as-people-think is a "portable" assembly. C-as-it-is is basically a weird ludicrously old language that happens to be compilable without much overhead.
05:40:41 <btiffin> Yep, admitted as such by Dennis
05:41:22 <Bike> reading him complain about gcc is the funniest shit
05:41:34 <pikhq> I mean, it works decently for what it is, but it's a language principally used because it's the language of choice for the lower-level APIs on all common OSes.
05:41:36 <btiffin> But, with C and the internet, you live in the same binary interface
05:42:03 <btiffin> Yep, the ABI is part of the thing, and C wins
05:42:40 <btiffin> for now, with this version of the network
05:42:50 <Bike> what network, what
05:43:36 <zzo38> Well, C isn't assembly language; different computers are all differences. However some of the things in C are close to common things in different computers instruction sets, such as converting between a number and a pointer, and bitwise operations, and arithmetic operations. This makes it very portable, in general (although there may be some unusual cases).
05:44:11 <btiffin> take a look the TCP/IP code and you are not in Java 'jvm' space. It's the C ABI, pretty much top to bottom. Python and Perl and Ruby bits, all written in C etc. It's the common denominator of the internet
05:44:25 <Bike> C didn't even have converting a pointer to a number until uintptr_t did it
05:44:54 <pikhq> And the only requirement on uintptr_t is that you can round-trip between uintptr_t and a pointer.
05:44:55 <btiffin> But it's also the stack frames and little-big end ordering and on and on. Pascal call frame order didn't win. C's did.
05:44:57 <Bike> btiffin: shrug, that's just because of how those language runties work. you can write the wire protocol in something else if you want, people just don't.
05:45:36 <pikhq> A conformant implementation of the uintptr_t cast could xor the pointer with an arbitrary integer.
05:46:12 <btiffin> True and actually in the field of course. Fortran web servers and lisp time servers, etc. But I'll stand by the statement, for now, the C ABI is the base.
05:46:35 <pikhq> Yeah, it's generally what OSes are built on.
05:47:00 <Bike> tsk, near as i can tell nobody uses shared objects in very interesting ways though
05:47:03 <pikhq> Not because they should or must be, but just cause that's how it ended up.
05:48:45 <zzo38> Yes, it is true, C does not always have the properties I mentioned, although it is close enough to make it portable, the use of pointers on some computer may not be the same as on other computers, but it can always be used as C pointers, nevertheless.
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05:51:23 <btiffin> But, it isn't a very esoteric idea, just an observation. cbrain is more fun and it'll never run anything. Sweet.
05:52:48 <pikhq> zzo38: The guarantees and lack-thereof in C are pretty fun.
05:53:25 <Bike> revised⁹⁹ report on the algorithmic language c
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10:04:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ url paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ cat > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ else # Save making a file when it already exists. \ url "$1" \ fi
10:05:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ print ("http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/" + \ urllib.quote(sys.argv[1]))
10:05:33 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ wisdom
10:05:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom
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10:37:52 <zzo38> What is a category called if all objects are isomorphic to each other?
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13:21:04 <oklofok> zzo38: equivalent to a monoid
13:21:30 <Taneb> Is this a topic for discussion?
13:21:43 <Taneb> I don't think zzo38 is equivalent to a monoid
13:22:37 <oklofok> Taneb: "<zzo38> What is a category called if all objects are isomorphic to each other?"
13:22:40 <c00kiemon5ter> 04-05 13:37 <zzo38> What is a category called if all objects are isomorphic to each other?
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13:23:49 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: what exactly is a monoid and how does one use one in a program?
13:24:07 <Taneb> I love monoids. They're so easy!
13:24:26 <Taneb> A monoid is basically a generalization of things you can append
13:24:39 <Taneb> And have a nothing that is the identity of appending
13:25:23 <oklofok> a general monoid is that but you equate some elements
13:25:29 <ThatOtherPerson> I am beginning to get the feeling that you have to use a monoid in order to understand what a monoid is.
13:25:42 <Taneb> Strings are monoids
13:25:50 <Taneb> Because you can stick two together
13:26:05 <Taneb> And also the empty string you can stick to anything and it doesn't change it
13:26:28 <Taneb> Numbers are monoids in at least two ways
13:26:57 <oklofok> a monoid is (S, f, 1), where 1 \in S, f is a binary function on S, that is, f : SxS -> S, and the laws f(f(a, b), c) = f(a, f(b, c)) and f(1, a) = a = f(a, 1) hold.
13:27:24 <oklofok> the law f(f(a, b), c) = f(a, f(b, c)) basically states that you can write ab for f(a, b) without confusion
13:27:33 <oklofok> because abc will be unambiguous
13:28:42 <oklofok> and it's basically orthogonal to this
13:28:47 <oklofok> this is called associativity yeah
13:28:47 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: "how do I use a monoid in a program" is the wrong question. "monoid" is a generic interface supported by multiple types. so if you just want an example of "using a monoid" then something totally boring like string concatenation suffices. but the right question is "what do I gain by identifying this generic interface and using it"
13:29:10 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, you know what a group is, yeah?
13:30:11 <Taneb> A monoid is a group without inverse
13:31:31 <boily> can we uplift strings to a group, and have negative strings?
13:31:53 <oklofok> anyway when i said monoid up there, i meant the category theory definition, which means a category with a single object; in a category with a single object, the morphisms form a monoid in the sense i defined above.
13:31:55 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm still not completely sure "what ... I gain by identifying this generic interface and using it"
13:32:08 <kmc> it's the same with monads. easy to explain how IO or Maybe or lists work, somewhat harder to explain what they have in common and why we have a generic interface to all of them
13:32:17 <kmc> but definitely harder still if you don't distinguish these goals
13:32:51 <oklofok> ThatOtherPerson: you can write a method that takes a list of values from a monoid, and appends them in that order. this generalizes both concatenating a list of lists and adding a list of numbers.
13:33:03 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: edwardk has this 'finger tree' data structure library which keeps an annotation at each layer of the tree
13:33:11 <kmc> the annotation is allowed to be any type supporting the monoid interface
13:33:20 <kmc> because all you need to do is combine annotations of subtrees
13:34:54 <ThatOtherPerson> Similar to how Python generalizes the "sequence" interface
13:35:17 <kmc> except that in Python interfaces are basically implicit and exist in documentation only
13:35:33 <kmc> whereas Haskell has this "type classes" feature for making the language aware of them
13:35:44 <kmc> of course you could standardize a monoid interface in Python too
13:35:53 <kmc> or a Java interface or a C++ abstract base class
13:36:30 <kmc> but it might be one of those cases where the abstraction is worth it in Haskell, because the language is so expressive, and not worth it it other languages
13:36:37 <kmc> that seems to be the case with monads anyway
13:37:27 <kmc> btw to be pedantic above, a moniod isn't a group without an inverse, it's a group which doesn't *necessarily* have an inverse, i.e. having an inverse is not part of the definition of 'monoid'. but every group is a monoid as well
13:37:57 <Taneb> It's a group where you don't care if it has an inverse or not
13:38:59 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: another fun monoid is functions from a type to that same type, functions with type like A -> A
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13:39:28 <kmc> you can combine two of these functions by composing them, which is associative
13:39:49 <kmc> and the identity function is your identity element
13:39:56 <kmc> beacuse (f . id) = (id . f) = f
13:41:29 <oklofok> ^ and that's actually a category with a single object, that is, a category theoretical monoid
13:41:53 <ThatOtherPerson> Wait, in Haskell, can you do something like `new_function = (f1 . f2)`
13:41:57 <oklofok> the category has one object, the type A, and the morphisms are the functions from A to A
13:42:37 <oklofok> well you can do it in python, so obviously you can do it in haskell
13:42:45 <Taneb> Haskell has a very light-weight syntax when it comes to defining functions
13:43:37 <ThatOtherPerson> I never even knew a language had a composition operator until 3 minutes ago
13:43:55 <oklofok> well okay python doesn't allow you to make new operators, but that's just a syntax thing
13:43:57 <Koen_> today's problem is more interesting! http://imgur.com/5Z57Z4P
13:44:03 <kmc> of course in Haskell the composition operator doesn't need to be built in, it's just part of the standard library
13:44:35 <oklofok> you can write f = dot(f1, f2) in python
13:44:36 <kmc> > let (...) f g x = f (g x) in (show ... succ) 5
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13:44:53 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: now that you know what monoids are, I can try to explain what a category is, if you don't know
13:45:00 <kmc> since categories are a generalization of monoids
13:45:19 <oklofok> the only difference is "." is a valid name for a function in haskell, and it's interpreted as an operator so it's called by writing "f1 . f2".
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13:46:13 <kmc> okay well we said that if set S is a monoid, then you can combine any two elements of S
13:46:22 <kmc> if S is a category, then there are some restrictions on which elements you can combine
13:47:11 <kmc> if S is a category then every element of S has what i'm going to call a "type", which is written in the form A -> B
13:47:47 <kmc> (this doesn't mean they are functions, although they might be; it's really just a pair (A,B) of symbols drawn from some set of types)
13:48:03 <oklofok> (elements in kmc's text are what i have been calling morphisms, and types in kmc's are what i called objects, just in case you've read my text)
13:48:26 <kmc> and we still have an associative binary operator, but you can only use it when the types are like A -> B and B -> C
13:48:51 <kmc> and rather than a single identity element, you have one of type A -> A for every A
13:49:25 <kmc> yeah I'm using nonstandrad terminology for the moment, because I think the standard terminology is confusing from a programming perspective
13:50:02 <kmc> when i see "object" i expect it to be one of the elements of the set we can compose stuff from, but it actually means the alphabet we're drawing types from
13:50:34 <kmc> so, one kinda obvious example of a category is the set of all functions
13:50:45 <Koen_> so guys imagine I'm in a labyrinth
13:50:55 <Koen_> and I need to remember in what part of the labyrinth I am to know what strategy use
13:50:59 <kmc> whereas monoids only let us talk about functions like A -> A, categories have all the machinery to say which functions compose with which other ones (not by coincidence)
13:51:03 <Koen_> how many ways to program that?
13:51:22 <kmc> also every monoid is a category with only one type
13:51:32 <kmc> ("object" in standard terminology)
13:51:54 <Koen_> say you are alerted whenever you change parts, but that's all
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13:52:09 <Koen_> so you could use different functions for different parts, and swap functions when you change
13:52:35 <oklofok> (kmc: i didn't mean your terminology is bad, just wanted to point out we are talking about the same thing.)
13:52:37 <Koen_> or you could say "when you change, start drawing signs on the wall and keep drawing as long as there are drwings here
13:53:11 <oklofok> (in case ThatOtherPerson read both and wondered what i was going on about.)
13:54:46 <kmc> i'll brb, i'll let other people give examples of other interesting categories though
13:55:11 <kmc> i'm told that category theory is really about natural transformations, and categories and functors are just preliminaries to get there
13:55:15 <kmc> but I don't know much about that
13:55:36 <Koen_> (in other words how many ways do you have to remember the current state when you're implementing a cellular automaton)
13:57:09 <oklofok> we're currently writing an article about the category of cellular automata
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13:58:04 <oklofok> the elements are cellular automata, the types are a bit hard to explain
13:58:11 <Koen_> oklofok: so for instance http://imgur.com/5Z57Z4P
13:58:46 <Koen_> to solve this you'd need a cellular automaton that'd say "until you've reached the orange square, go forward"
13:59:00 <Koen_> and then "once you've passed the orange square, move in a staircase pattern"
13:59:01 <oklofok> can you have just a single head that moves about?
13:59:09 <oklofok> because to me that sounds more like a turing machien
13:59:30 <Koen_> but the problem is: I have no "write" command
13:59:51 <oklofok> i have written a survey on this topic >P
13:59:52 <Koen_> so how do I know if I have passed the orange square yet?
14:00:02 <oklofok> survey on picture-walking automata
14:02:25 <Koen_> oklofok: is that you? http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-24897-9_9?LI=true
14:09:09 <oklofok> i'm the latter author yeah
14:11:11 <oklofok> the survey is not on your actual question, just on the general topic
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14:12:13 <oklofok> oh okay that's some kind of picture walking PDA, and i think i've solved this exact problem on robozzle
14:12:23 <oklofok> PDA = finite state automaton with a stack
14:12:34 <oklofok> then the survey is not really on topic, sorry
14:13:15 <Koen_> oklofok: yeah I found out about the stack by accident
14:13:35 <oklofok> the model of robozzle is very interesting, i dunno if it's been studied
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14:13:51 <Koen_> basically I forgot that the remainder of the function would accumulate if I don't reach it
14:14:14 <Koen_> so I could do something like "while you haven't reached the orange square, don't do the second part of the function"
14:14:18 <DHeadshot> Has anyone yet ported Piet to the Pi?
14:14:21 <Koen_> that is, loop on the first part
14:14:39 <Koen_> and when I'm done looping I've left with a not-loop of many many copies of the end of the function
14:14:46 <oklofok> then again even in the theory of picture-walking finite state automata a lot of basic questions are open so dunno if you'd get much out of a more complicated model
14:15:19 <oklofok> Koen_: yeah that's the natural solution
14:15:34 <oklofok> much easier with an actual stack
14:17:11 <oklofok> Koen_: what is that game called?
14:17:21 <Koen_> it's called fourth test for 42
14:17:28 <Koen_> and it lasts 4 hours
14:17:43 <Koen_> I did the first 9 levels in 20 minutes
14:17:49 <Koen_> then spent 40 minutes on the tenth
14:17:56 <Koen_> now I'm on the 12th
14:18:10 <Koen_> (the one I showed you is then 10th)
14:18:53 <oklofok> of course this is one of the puzzles
14:19:03 <Koen_> the third test was counting dots not unlike your thing
14:19:30 <Koen_> (I think the purpose of the first three tests was to test my patience)
14:21:33 <oklofok> so as i mentioned, i know this game under the name robozzle, and it's awesome
14:23:37 <oklofok> we played it with fizzie some years ago
14:31:55 <Koen_> oklofok: try that one http://imgur.com/ZbbVJum
14:32:53 <coppro> yay, my seerpak arrived
14:34:25 <Taneb> coppro, I ordered the physical copy :/
14:34:50 <oklofok> fizzie: have you solved puzzle number 1075?
14:35:04 <oklofok> Koen_: i have to solve 1075 first.
14:35:28 <fizzie> I don't know what this is all about.
14:35:49 <coppro> Taneb: I wanted to throw money at the thing and the tarot deck is awesome
14:36:01 <Taneb> coppro, I didn't have money at the time
14:36:15 <Taneb> But kinda wanted a physical copy
14:36:24 <Taneb> Because I'd lose the digital download :/
14:37:38 <coppro> I have an email label where I stash download links like that
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14:57:30 <fizzie> Probably not. I haven't touched Robozzle "since then".
15:02:24 <boily> `run grep -v '^#' /etc/locale.gen
15:02:26 <HackEgo> grep: /etc/locale.gen: No such file or directory
15:03:05 <boily> `run LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 date
15:03:06 <HackEgo> 2013年 4月 5日 金曜日 15:03:06 UTC
15:03:23 <boily> `run LANG=fr_CA.UTF-8 date
15:03:25 <HackEgo> vendredi 5 avril 2013, 15:03:24 (UTC+0000)
15:07:42 <Taneb> LogicT is ALMOST a special case of ContT
15:08:53 <Taneb> Alas, m (r -> r) /~ m r -> m r
15:09:14 <lambdabot> `/' (imported from Prelude), `/=' (imported from Data.Eq),
15:09:55 <Taneb> I'm trying to say "are not sort of equivalent"
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15:11:18 <boily> Taneb: something like ≁?
15:11:39 <Taneb> Except my keyboard has less than a thousand buttons
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15:21:32 <fizzie> "What kind of lame keyboard is that?"
15:24:09 <fizzie> Oh, some sort of projection thing?
15:24:22 <fizzie> An astral projection keyboard.
15:25:05 <Taneb> Yeah, it's kind of uncomfortable to type with
15:27:57 <zzo38> LogicT is a special case of Codensity, but not of ContT
15:28:06 <zzo38> ContT is also a special case of Codensity
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15:31:27 <zzo38> LogicT is a better kind of list monad transformer than ListT (which doesn't work).
15:32:04 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:32:08 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1d 17h 5m 5s ago: <atriq> Trivia: I have a cousin who is just like me, except Australian and somehow less awesome. <-- they live in one of the other two Hexhams, right?
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15:51:28 <boily> ramdom request: could somebody ping 2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 ?
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15:53:53 <fizzie> It does not seem to answer to me.
15:53:59 -!- calamari has left.
15:54:15 <fizzie> A random other v6 address -- 2a00:1450:400f:800::1002, one of what google.com resolves to -- does.
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16:50:02 <mroman> How many trees can you fit into a square?
16:51:45 <mroman> the so called tree-packing-bound.
16:52:20 <mroman> where a tree is actually just a sphere connected to a cylinder.
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17:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> uh, what do you call a space that's made of subsets of the euclidean space glued together so the entire thing isn't isometric to any euclidean subset
17:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> people keep calling it 'non-euclidean' but i don't think that's accurate
17:12:17 <Bike> well 'non-euclidean' is roughly the vaguest term ever so
17:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> but definitely it's not euclidean less the parallel postulate
17:13:19 <Bike> even if parallel lines met or whatever, 'non-euclidean' woldn't really narrow it down, i mean
17:14:37 <Bike> anyway i have no idea about the actual answer
17:16:23 <oklopol> so err, do you mean a simplicial complex which cannot be embedded in R^n for any n?
17:16:31 <oklopol> sorry, i don't know a name for this
17:17:12 <oklopol> actually what you describe sounds more like a manifold
17:18:17 <oklopol> now that i think about it, i do know a name for a simplicial complex which cannot be embedded in R^n for any n
17:18:37 <oklopol> such a simplicial complex is referred to as "nonexistent"
17:19:13 <oklopol> but of course if you fix a dimension, then this can happen, and anything can happen with manifolds ofc.
17:19:41 <oklopol> in any case i don't have any nontrivial answers, but non-euclidean sounds wrong to me too
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17:33:15 <metasepia> CYUL 051700Z 28018KT 15SM FEW050 FEW080 06/M02 A2983 RMK SC1AC1 CU EMBD SLP103
17:36:07 <zzo38> What city is CYUL?
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17:44:13 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYUL probably
17:45:21 <olsner> (otoh, since wikipedia has so much contents about canada - maybe everything on wikipedia is just made up?)
17:52:40 <boily> @tell zzo38 Montréal.
17:53:17 <boily> olsner: welcome to wikipedia, where canada is made up and weather doesn't matter. (but tim hortons does, eh)
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18:23:30 <nooodl> how do i read ~metar output
18:25:03 <boily> partial infos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR
18:25:13 <boily> useful tool: http://www.metarreader.com/
18:25:14 <fizzie> I've used the http://www.flyingineurope.be/metar_taf_decode.htm table.
18:25:31 <fizzie> (One needs to scroll past the TAF bit.)
18:25:52 <metasepia> EFHK 051820Z 36006KT CAVOK 04/M04 Q1012 NOSIG
18:26:07 <fizzie> Ooh, still above freezing.
18:27:05 <boily> today we had snow, rain, hail, snow and rain, wind...
18:27:28 <fizzie> Lately it's been so that it's -10 to -5 °C in the night, but somethin above +5 °C in the day, so during the day all the snow and ice melts, then at night it freezes again, and in the morning there's patches of mirror-polished ice everywhere.
18:28:36 <metasepia> ESSA 051820Z 01006KT CAVOK M00/M08 Q1017 R88/09//95 NOSIG
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18:33:58 <fizzie> Perhaps you should clear the cows out the runway.
18:35:04 <olsner> if the cows could fly away they wouldn't be as much of a problem
18:35:40 <ThatOtherPerson> Joining mid-conversation and trying to figure out what is going on is always such fun
18:36:24 <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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18:42:34 <boily> `addquote <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
18:42:39 <HackEgo> 1011) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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18:47:15 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: oh well err if you want an actual isometry, then it's possible that not all simplicial complexes can be embedded.
18:47:28 <oklopol> or what did you mean by the question not being topological
18:49:35 <kmc> ~metar KBOS
18:49:36 <metasepia> KBOS 051754Z 25007KT 10SM SCT050 SCT070 BKN150 12/M03 A2973 RMK AO2 SLP068 T01171033 10122 20050 58041
18:49:46 <kmc> how should I learn how to read this
18:49:56 <oklopol> okay so if you take an equilatelar triangle with the metric obtained from gluing three intervals with their natural metric metric then i suppose it doesn't embed in R^n for any n
18:51:02 <Bike> that seems like kind of a fucking weird metric
18:51:22 <oklopol> usually you don't metrize simplicial complices
18:51:32 <elliott> kmc: 19:23:30 <nooodl> how do i read ~metar output
18:51:32 <elliott> 19:25:03 <boily> partial infos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR
18:51:32 <elliott> 19:25:13 <boily> useful tool: http://www.metarreader.com/
18:51:32 <elliott> 19:25:14 <fizzie> I've used the http://www.flyingineurope.be/metar_taf_decode.htm table.
18:51:35 <elliott> 19:25:31 <fizzie> (One needs to scroll past the TAF bit.)
18:51:58 <oklopol> but this is the natural metric in some sense, imo
18:52:18 <Bike> i can see the logic but it still seems fucking weird
18:53:17 <oklopol> yeah the idea was that to measure the distance between points in different components, you make the shortest path which is affine on each simplex and add up the lengths
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18:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oh right wait i just realised why doing this with isometries is probably impossible
18:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> basically what i mean is the sort of trickery showcased in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xFbRecjKQA
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18:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> antichamber is probably a better example but i couldn't be bothered finding a video
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19:03:27 <Bike> I wonder if the little cube you have to crawl through is a deliberate Prey joke.
19:05:28 <Taneb> Is this a game I should bother with
19:06:40 <Taneb> How much does it cost
19:11:30 <Taneb> Not if you buy really cheap sandwiches!
19:11:41 <Gregor> Either those are some amazingly inexpensive sandwiches, or that's not a very useful comparison.
19:12:07 <Taneb> Also, I don't have a Windows computer at the moment
19:12:24 <elliott> can hoovers eat sandwiches
19:13:29 <olsner> Gregor: or perhaps both?
19:15:03 <Taneb> So I'd have to convince my brother to let me use his computer to play a weird game
19:15:22 <Gregor> Taneb: It'll probably work under wine *shrugs*
19:15:32 <Gregor> (This assumption based on nothing but wine's overall success rate)
19:16:27 <Taneb> For that I'd need to overcome the Chinese Graphics Card Problem IV: I Thought I Had Fixed It But Nooooo
19:17:09 <Gregor> So #esoteric folks, what should I do with my Nexus 10 tablet?
19:17:10 <monqy> did you get a new graphics card but woops it was chinese too
19:18:07 <Taneb> monqy, the first graphics card came from a bootleg website and came with a manual only in Chinese
19:18:33 <monqy> why did you get it if it was from a bootleg website
19:18:38 <monqy> that sounds like a bad idea
19:19:10 <Taneb> The second I think is legitimate
19:19:16 <Taneb> I just suck at graphics cards drivers
19:19:27 <Taneb> And also my brother stole my screen so I can't fix it
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19:20:03 <Taneb> AndGregor, do you know Gregor?
19:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> imo you should be able to use that for leverage to play antichamber on his computer
19:20:44 <Taneb> I probs could without him noticing
19:20:48 <monqy> `welcome AndGregor
19:20:50 <HackEgo> AndGregor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:24:50 <boily> as long as you don't multiply like tribbles and andtribbles, everything is fine.
19:25:58 <AndGregor> I'm just trying to figure out what to do with a tablet PC.
19:26:27 <Taneb> About cuboids invading Edinburgh
19:26:28 <boily> chisel your poems in it, like a real tablet!
19:26:39 <monqy> i've never figured out what tablet pc`s are for
19:27:02 <kmc> "tablet PC" or new style tablet a la iPad?
19:27:11 <Taneb> I think they're like laptops but more so
19:27:39 <monqy> new style tablet mainly....laptop with a tablet-y screen makes sense at least
19:27:52 <kmc> monqy: they're for demonstrating that you have lots of disposable income
19:28:22 <kmc> also for having a web browsing device that just works
19:28:28 <impomatic> Tablet PCs are for checking your email, IRC and stuff during dinner when you can access a real computer
19:28:37 <kmc> i.e. not running Windows
19:28:50 <impomatic> At least that's what I use mine for
19:28:53 <kmc> Apple could just sell laptops with iOS on them, but then they wouldn't make as much money
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19:29:13 <monqy> could sell laptops with macos on them
19:29:14 <elliott> well if you sell a alptop with iOS on it you might as well sell a laptop with OS X on it instead
19:29:33 <elliott> since iOS is basically OS X with a simplified interface designed for a device that isn't based around a keyboard and pointer device
19:29:37 <kmc> elliott: no because the iOS is less likely to break, by virtue of doing fewer things and being totally locked down
19:29:57 <elliott> well, I don't think macbook airs that people use for web browsing or whatever have a reputation of breaking
19:30:12 <monqy> imo make another version thats even more locked down and sell clothing with it installed
19:30:18 <impomatic> You can just about get away with using a tablet PC in the pub. No chance of using a laptop in the pub.
19:30:41 <monqy> brain implant. now you are the iOS
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19:33:24 <kmc> THEN WHO WAS PHONE
19:34:42 <Taneb> I AM NO LONGER PHONE
19:34:57 <oerjan> OF COURSE NOT, YOU ARE DEAD
19:36:04 <Taneb> THIS IS PROBLEMATIC
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19:39:46 <AndGregor> This is an Android tablet, a Nexus 10.
19:40:11 <AndGregor> Kinda makes me wonder what tablets are for.
19:41:21 <oerjan> <boily> can we uplift strings to a group, and have negative strings? <-- yes.
19:41:41 <boily> I indeed said that. now on to understand what I said.
19:41:48 <boily> ~duck negative string
19:42:48 <oerjan> boily: see: free group. strings are already a free monoid.
19:43:03 <kmc> this is why
19:43:13 <kmc> i typed "this is why" into my irc client and then got distracted
19:43:20 <impomatic> Someone needs to write a Core War app for Android. And a decent Forth interpreter. And a decent personal wiki.
19:44:39 <impomatic> That'd be something like Smalltalk
19:44:42 <olsner> kmc: maybe you meant to say "this is why
19:45:48 <kmc> :))))))))))))))
19:48:37 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom_Hoover: the caps lock is to the left of the "A" on your keyboard
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19:58:30 <oerjan> <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: edwardk has this 'finger tree' data structure library which keeps an annotation at each layer of the tree <-- afaict edwardk is neither the inventor nor maintainer of the fingertree package
19:59:52 <elliott> oerjan: when in doubt, say edwardk did it.
20:00:05 <olsner> maybe it was ezyang, also starts with an e
20:00:16 <kmc> i guess i am wrong
20:00:20 <kmc> i thought that because I saw him give a talk about it
20:00:24 <kmc> but my memory is hazy
20:00:40 <oerjan> kmc: he probably would have invented it if no one had done already, right
20:01:15 <oerjan> (actually finger trees are probably not category based enough for that)
20:01:43 <oerjan> elliott: YOUR PICTURE PLZ
20:01:56 <ThatOtherPerson> Or do these trees have servers which answer to the finger protocol?
20:02:40 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/sRyCi.png
20:02:43 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, finger trees are a cool kind of tree
20:02:48 <elliott> did monqy see the finger tree
20:03:46 <ThatOtherPerson> Oh, thank you for that image, now I know exactly what a finger tree looks like!
20:04:27 <monqy> elliott: yeah i have
20:04:41 <monqy> reminds me of my arms dream
20:04:58 <Taneb> http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~ross/papers/FingerTree.html
20:05:58 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: I do not believe that is truly what a finger tree is; it is much to boring; I am sticking with elliott's interpretation
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20:07:38 <elliott> every time I see it I am just reminded at how much of a pain GIMP made it to make
20:08:40 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: on second thought, elliott just blasphemed against GIMP. I shall now study that URL you posted in great detail.
20:09:00 <elliott> fun fact: it's kind of awful
20:09:23 <Taneb> elliott, 2.8 is a bit better
20:09:24 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> Wait, in Haskell, can you do something like `new_function = (f1 . f2)` <-- in principle that's good, but there's an obstacle you sometimes hit that's called the "monomorphism restriction".
20:09:51 <Taneb> oerjan, he's not ready to hear about the monomorphism restriction
20:10:11 <oerjan> there are several ways to get around it, though, including an option to turn it off entirely
20:10:25 <oerjan> Taneb: which is why i didn't explain what it was duh
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20:11:05 <oerjan> however it's relevant here because one of the ways to get around is to use functions with explicit arguments.
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20:11:37 <ThatOtherPerson> elliott: Is there any photo editing software that you do like?
20:11:43 <oerjan> so when you use new_function = ... a lot you are much more likely to hit it
20:12:12 <elliott> but I guess I like gimp the least
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20:18:04 <oerjan> <kmc> i'm told that category theory is really about natural transformations, and categories and functors are just preliminaries to get there
20:18:11 <oerjan> yeah there's a famous quote
20:19:09 <oerjan> 'Saunders Mac Lane, one of the founders of category theory, is said to have remarked, "I didn't invent categories to study functors; I invented them to study natural transformations."'
20:21:41 <HackEgo> category theory? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:22:02 <oerjan> `learn Category theory is the theory of categories.
20:22:18 <oerjan> that should clear things up.
20:23:03 <oerjan> `run echo "Category theory is the theory of categories." >wisdom/'category theory'
20:23:15 <HackEgo> Category theory is the theory of categories.
20:23:30 <olsner> is there also a category of theories?
20:24:44 <oerjan> i don't know about it though
20:24:58 <oerjan> and theory might have several meanings
20:25:19 <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories
20:30:25 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
20:30:28 <coppro> `addquote <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories
20:30:32 <HackEgo> 1012) <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories
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20:35:29 <coppro> Taneb: retcooooonnnnnnnnnn
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20:36:52 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: his hand wasn't there the whole time, was it? Did I just not notice somehow?
20:38:19 <coppro> look at the image URLs
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20:47:51 <oerjan> <lambdabot> Not in scope: `/~'
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20:48:17 <ion> /~ is obviously the non-MonadState variant of /=
20:48:50 <oerjan> ion: hm that may be why it isn't defined, since the corresponding /= cannot be
20:49:56 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 ^~ (/) ?? 2 -- will this have the right fixities?
20:49:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral (a0 -> a0 -> a0))
20:50:11 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 ^~ ((/) ?? 2) -- will this have the right fixities?
20:50:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral (b0 -> b0))
20:50:27 <lambdabot> (Integral e, Num a) => ASetter s t a a -> e -> s -> t
20:50:40 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 %~ (/) ?? 2 -- will this have the right fixities?
20:50:43 <lambdabot> (*Exception: showsPrec: No overloading for function
20:50:59 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 %~ ((/) ?? 2) -- will this have the right fixities?
20:51:01 <lambdabot> (1.5707963267948966,2.718281828459045)
20:51:47 <oerjan> elliott: well yes, but i was trying to separate / and 2
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20:55:56 <lambdabot> Fractional a => ASetter s t a a -> a -> s -> t
20:55:58 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, MonadState s m) => ASetter' s a -> a -> m ()
20:56:36 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> uh, what do you call a space that's made of subsets of the euclidean space glued together so the entire thing isn't isometric to any euclidean subset
20:57:15 <oerjan> i think isometric is fine?
20:58:08 <oerjan> given that you seem to say the _geometry_ is locally euclidean, not just the topology
20:58:23 <oerjan> (if the latter, the word you want is "manifold")
21:07:49 <oerjan> grmbl i was sure there would be a word for this from complex branch cut theory, but they just use riemann surfaces, which is too general
21:08:06 <oerjan> (looking at wikipedia)
21:11:09 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_surface#Parabolic_Riemann_surfaces is too specific i think
21:11:33 <oerjan> although i'd think curvature 0 is something you want
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21:22:28 <oerjan> <olsner> if the cows could fly away they wouldn't be as much of a problem <-- i dunno, getting a cow flying into your jet engine would probably suck
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21:26:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anyway i am still imagining complex branch cuts here; like with f(z) = sqrt(z) you have to go twice around the origin to return to the same place
21:27:24 <oerjan> or rather, the surfaces you need to define the functions on in order not to have cuts.
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21:30:55 <oerjan> <Taneb> For that I'd need to overcome the Chinese Graphics Card Problem IV: I Thought I Had Fixed It But Nooooo
21:31:06 <oerjan> this is another esolang name suggestion, right?
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22:47:13 <oerjan> french porn spam, now on esolang
22:52:36 <elliott> oerjan: you sound like an expert. want to handle it?
22:53:15 <Gregor> If the French porn is free, save some for me.
22:54:28 <oerjan> i used to be a pert, but now i'm out of shape
22:55:33 <pikhq> Guys, I might have a problem.
22:55:39 <pikhq> I wrote... yet another Brainfuck interpreter.
22:56:25 <oerjan> i think yabi may already exist
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23:47:03 <Sgeo> elliott, why are you randomly mentioning newLisp to me?
23:48:09 <elliott> i found a log with newlisp talk in it
23:49:37 * Sgeo thinks it would be good for a codenomic but not necessarily much else
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00:17:05 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:24:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*list*: No such file or directory
00:24:43 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
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01:39:39 <Bike> I thought logreading was punishable by apathy.
01:39:46 <monqy> remember the tiny lisps craze
01:39:47 <monqy> or maybe not even tiny but
01:39:47 <monqy> newlisp, picolisp, zepto
01:39:47 <monqy> remember zeptobot, remember news-ham
01:39:50 <Bike> is that like a nomic, or
01:40:16 <kmc> microkernel nanokernel femtokernel
01:40:18 <kmc> exokernel goes somewhere in there
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01:41:11 <pikhq> I think we need yoctokernels.
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01:43:42 <shachaf> Exokernel Mustard returning to the Library with the Gadget
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01:44:02 <shachaf> why do people pronounce "colonel" as "krnl"
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01:47:02 <Bike> shachaf: that's what happens when the english military conspires to pronounce french probably
01:54:12 <shachaf> Bike: why would anybody try to pronounce french
01:55:12 <pikhq> (19:54) Because the French are masochists.
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02:00:43 <pikhq> (20:00) Welcome back from the split.
02:01:16 <shachaf> The character of Green has been given two different personas in the Cluedo world. Originally patented as The Rev. Mr. Green, in Britain, he is Reverend Green, a hypocritical vicar who weakens when it comes to the Sixth commandment, murder. In North America, he is Mr. Green, who has taken many money-oriented roles from mobster to businessman. Parker Brothers insisted on the name change as they thought the American public would object to a ...
02:01:22 <shachaf> ... parson being a murder suspect.[1] He rolls fourth in the game.
02:01:52 <Bike> the sixth commandment, murder
02:02:20 <Gregor> Ugh, only Portlanders would be stupid enough to fight flouridation of water X_X
02:02:35 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fluids.jpg
02:03:00 <Bike> Gregor: you sure about that
02:03:39 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unholy_three_cropped.png POLIO MONKEY SERUMS
02:03:50 <kmc> Gregor: https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-March/034990.html san francisco
02:04:14 <kmc> p. good thread, somebody brings up 9-11 trutherism as a hyperbolic troll and then they discuss that seriously for a while
02:04:33 <kmc> WATER: USED BY NAZIS
02:04:40 <shachaf> ostensibly to prevent tooth decay (dubious)
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02:05:19 <elliott> I heard flouridation is pointless, which sounds more plausible than it lowering IQ and turning you into a nazi
02:05:33 <kmc> nazi shmatzi
02:06:24 <kmc> http://jpelectron.com/sample/Electronics/PC-%20SCSI%20-%20Connectors.gif the great thing about SCSI connectors is that there are so many to choose from
02:07:33 <elliott> the great ting about monoids is that they are so easy to choose from
02:08:17 <kmc> elliott: don't you need some kind of axiom for that
02:09:17 <shachaf> it's called the axiom of choice because everyone prefers it to the other axioms
02:11:28 <kmc> check out my new axiom, axiom of choice
02:12:17 <shachaf> the axiom of choice for the discerning mathematician
02:13:06 <kmc> shachaf: isn't that the axiom of comprehension
02:17:00 <elliott> kmc: oh man this thread is gold
02:17:13 <elliott> kmc: the guy's response to everyone who says he's an idiot is to criticise them for top-posting first
02:17:17 <elliott> that is the funniest thing to me
02:17:58 <Bike> toxic at the cellular level
02:18:39 <kmc> i gather that noisebridge has been overrun with hobos and crazies and also they spent all their money and nobody knows how
02:18:58 <elliott> hopefully nobody on this list thinks that three steel skyscraper can just
02:18:58 <elliott> all collapse into their own footprints, because two of them were hit with
02:18:59 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/4749e66db130c47b127835b56bf34e67/tumblr_mkbu5fdToy1r7a5hdo1_1280.jpg Dude. Their blog.
02:19:23 <kmc> Bike: uncle sam looks p. cool in that drawing
02:19:26 <kmc> a rad dude
02:19:27 <shachaf> elliott: wow you made me look
02:19:30 <Gregor> Hey, my Nexus 10's battery finally died.
02:19:31 <shachaf> he really does do that doesn't he
02:19:35 <Gregor> Dutifully reporting 72% to the very end.
02:19:43 <shachaf> Top posting, in spite of having the problems with that pointed out in the message to which you're replying, and with new subject matter but the same subject line.
02:19:44 <kmc> we are the 72%
02:19:54 <elliott> i actually hate top posting but this guy is so funny
02:20:01 <Bike> question what is "top posting"
02:20:14 <Bike> This shifts the helm of the printing press to the federal government and they might print money for ulterior uses, surreptitiously or a vague reason of “national security.” Government officials have been known to influenced by bribes, gifts, threats, blackmail, and force.
02:20:22 <elliott> top posting is where you put your reply before a big ol quote of the email you're replying to
02:20:30 <Jafet> Top posting is the best way of posting
02:20:38 <elliott> instead of putting the context before the actual things you're saying and not including five thousand lines that are irrelevant to your email
02:20:50 <elliott> of course every client promotes doing this by default for no reason
02:21:16 <Bike> The Planned Parenthood memo indicates a the organization’s darker notes of eugenics-based population control.
02:21:38 <Bike> yep there's alex jones
02:21:48 <shachaf> And worthwhile of discussion, even if top-posted.
02:21:54 <Bike> BLATANT CENSORSHIP by CNN of Soldier Supporting Ron Paul’s Foreign Policy - Please Re-upload
02:22:46 <Bike> 17 Reasons Why A Vote For Mitt Romney Is A Vote For The New World Order. <-- okay i kind of want to read this almost except it's on infowars
02:23:45 <Bike> Is Gingrich a Straw Man? Gingrich is perhaps a straw man. Do night fight single candidate wars; be smart. Use logic, Socratic method (identify BS). Issues are collapse and WW3. The *real* enemy is war, lies, and corruption. These things come from CFR, Bilderberg. Romney (CFR), Rick Perry (CFR, Bilderberg), Obama (CFR, Goldman-Sachs, Brzezinski).
02:23:51 <Bike> and now i'm done.
02:23:52 <shachaf> FluorIDE sounds like an IDE.
02:24:06 <shachaf> imo you should make an ide called that
02:24:07 <elliott> Bike: do night fight single candidate wars
02:24:11 <Jafet> @google fluoride IDE
02:24:16 <lambdabot> http://www.electricscotland.com/mcintyre/index_f/menu_f/nomenclature.htm
02:24:16 <lambdabot> Title: fluorine fluoride chemistry
02:24:38 <Bike> elliott: tonight on spike
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02:28:57 <shachaf> monoid monoid on the wall. what is the easiest algebraic structure of all?
02:31:08 <Jafet> @google dylan server pages
02:31:13 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Server_Pages
02:31:14 <lambdabot> Title: Dylan Server Pages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
02:35:48 <Jafet> The Last Free Monoid in Europe
02:39:21 <kmc> Bike: to be fair the founder of Planned Parenthood was sort of into eugenics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood#Margaret_Sanger_and_eugenics
02:39:35 <kmc> but maybe the kind that isn't so bad
02:39:42 <kmc> and also it was the 20s and everyone though eugenics was cool back then
02:39:48 <Bike> yes i am aware
02:39:56 <kmc> shachattps
02:40:08 <kmc> shachaf: are you the secure version of a protocol named hachaf
02:40:22 <Bike> maybe i should have mentioned that the title of that post was "Fertility control agents in water supply"
02:46:36 <Jafet> No, I just didn't go back in.
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03:39:10 <Fiora> an old one I'm guessing?
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03:58:10 <boily> as I was telling my colleague on the other side of the table: I never imagined that I would in my life stare at a picture of the teletubbies in a common room around midnight in order to score points in a hacking competition.
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03:59:10 <Bike> Civilization II, actually
04:08:26 <doesthiswork> this sight really improves my programming efficiency http://www.hackertyper.com/
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06:35:02 <btiffin> Ok, What's a pirate's favourite letter?
06:37:22 <btiffin> What did the zero say to the eight?
06:41:29 <mroman> What did the one say to the seven?
06:45:23 <btiffin> Is there an idea listed for a language based on the outcome of jokes?
06:45:51 <zzo38> If not, you can add it
06:45:51 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:45:54 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 53m 16s ago: Montréal.
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07:20:47 <mroman> There's new porn spam on the wiki
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07:37:57 <mroman> http://codepad.org/cRrdL4wD
07:38:15 <mroman> I'm tempted to write a new stlisp implementation some day
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07:44:32 <mroman> The source code has gone missing.
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08:29:15 <zzo38> Can Z-machine version 1 files be made to work in Famicom? It doesn't have the ASCII codes above 95, but it could be done so that the SHIFT key with codes 64 to 95 and 96 to 126 will toggle bit5 of the ASCII code, like SHIFT toggles bit4 for the codes 32 to 63.
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12:40:42 <zzo38> Z-machine version 5 has a command to check if the game disc is genuine. No game uses it, and all interpreters just assume that it is genuine.
12:41:29 <zzo38> (Some interpreters have an option to tell it that it is not genuine.)
12:51:33 <zzo38> Yes, actually at this time I am.
12:52:39 <ThatOtherPerson> I was considering writing one for the DCPU, but I didn't for some reason.
12:53:15 <zzo38> Mine is C and SDL, all versions except 6.
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13:02:02 <zzo38> Including version 9, which is my own variant based on version 5, although there are a few differences, such as using word addresses in the headers, and allowing packed addresses to be access twice as much memory as in version 8.
13:12:57 <zzo38> WinFrotz reports the interpreter number as 6 (I tested it using ZmForth). Setting the Tandy bit does not change this, nor does it change flags 1 (ZmForth is Z-machine version 5, so there is no Tandy bit in flags 1). My own interpreter (not finished yet) sets the interpreter number to 11 if the Tandy bit is set in the options, or 6 otherwise; it also sets flags 1 for versions 1 to 3.
13:14:05 <zzo38> I don't know if any version 4 or 5 games use this (other than Beyond Zork, which crashes on Tandy computers), but I put it in anyways, in case someone writes some game to use it.
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13:24:18 <zzo38> Bit0 and bit1 of flags 2 remains as it is when the game is restored or restarted or after undo, rather than being restored. I wonder if some game might use this to undo and then do something else
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13:34:07 <zzo38> For some reason in WinFrotz, if the game selects fixed-pitch mode, the display options are ignored and it uses actual italic and bold rather than whatever colors are set by the user.
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13:41:28 <Regis__> how about a game where you write an AI and fight other people
13:42:39 <impomatic> There's something like that in forth I think
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14:21:22 <zzo38> Some people have dumb reasons for being atheist and some people have dumb reasons for being religious.
14:21:49 <Taneb> I don't particularly care either way
14:22:18 <zzo38> I don't care either, but sometimes their reasons for being so aren't very good reasons.
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14:43:58 <Vorpal> <Taneb> I don't particularly care either way <-- does that mean you are agnostic?
14:44:24 <Taneb> I call myself a lapsed Christian if anything
14:44:45 <fizzie> A fallen one. (It's an impressive-sounding name.)
14:44:56 <olsner> I think "agnostic" is still a term for a person who cares some way or another
14:45:16 <zzo38> The book Godel,Escher,Bach also mentions "meta-agnostic"
14:45:35 <olsner> there should be a term like meh-gnostic
14:49:07 <fizzie> Speaking of which, I see that that Torment kick-farter ended, and they made it to the $4.25M mark but not quite to the $4.5M one. (Still, they only asked for $900k.)
14:49:21 <fizzie> (Also, I hear Notch put in ten thousand dollars, as usual.)
15:03:25 <Taneb> On this note, I can't wait for To Be Or Not To Be: That Is The Adventure
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15:06:15 <Taneb> It's a choose-your-own-adventure version of Hamlet
15:06:19 <Taneb> Made by Ryan North
15:06:40 <Taneb> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/breadpig/to-be-or-not-to-be-that-is-the-adventure
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15:59:01 <kmc> 'agnostic' traditionally means someone who thinks the question of whether god exists is impossible to answer
15:59:22 <kmc> they might still care a lot about the question and write many volumes about what a bummer it is that we can't answer it
15:59:37 <kmc> personally i like the word 'apatheist'
16:00:21 <olsner> apatheist sounds about right
16:00:29 <Taneb> I am 'pretty okay with whatever'
16:00:31 * kmc thinks it is logically possible that a being like a god exists, e.g. if this universe is a simulation running in some other universe, but even though it's possible there's no particular reason to believe it
16:00:46 <kmc> any more than we believe there is a teapot orbiting the sun between the earth and mars
16:00:50 <kmc> which is also totally possible
16:01:01 <kmc> it might cost less than a billion dollars to make that happen
16:01:15 <kmc> not sure though, I guess you need heavy rockets to get to a solar orbit?
16:01:20 <zzo38> Did somebody put it there a few years ago?
16:01:45 <Taneb> I think if there was a single deity powerful enough to be worth worshipping
16:01:51 <kmc> although there are some physical facts which look like evidence for us being in a simulation, if you look at them just right
16:02:00 <zzo38> I do not believe this universe is a simulation running in some other universe, but I don't know. However, it is not what I mean by "God".
16:02:06 <Taneb> We'd know because of all the non-believers getting hit by lightning all the time
16:02:24 <kmc> Taneb: i think we can confidently say that if God does exist, he is fucking with all of us
16:02:26 <zzo38> kmc: Maybe, but I still don't think so.
16:02:48 <Taneb> Unless said deity is benevolent, in which case why the hell wars.
16:03:06 <zzo38> And if it is a simulation, is that in another simulation?
16:03:24 <zzo38> And if not, what is it?
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16:04:26 <zzo38> Taneb: That is what a lot of people ask.
16:05:13 <Taneb> However unlikely it is that we are the "top" universe (by which I mean one that isn't a simulation), consider how unlikely it would be for any universe to be top universe, and how unlikely it would be for the top universe to create a simulation of a universe down to our level
16:05:27 <Taneb> And how even more unlikely for it to be universes all the way up
16:06:39 <zzo38> But, what is best for *the universe as a whole*? Of course we shouldn't have a war but that is the job of people to choose not to have a war; probably it is best for the universe as a whole that we have that choice but choose not to use it.
16:07:50 <olsner> "benevolence" doesn't imply fixing everything
16:09:00 <zzo38> Anyways, the laws of physics must still be followed regardless; even if there are sometimes multiple outcomes, or none at all.
16:09:15 <Taneb> A god that must obey the laws of physics is no god at all
16:09:17 <zzo38> Humanity is not the most important thing in the universe.
16:09:26 <shachaf> Is Ruby "out of style"? #haskell discusses.
16:09:27 <ion> taneb: Would you prefer to be a robot that won’t ever go to war or to have a free will which implies you have the choice to go to war?
16:09:32 <zzo38> Taneb: That is what it seems to you.
16:09:51 <shachaf> do you have to be "a" something, anyway
16:10:17 <Taneb> ion, I'd rather live in a society that is weighted firmly against war
16:10:30 <Taneb> So that even if individuals choose to go to war, society will prevent them
16:10:40 <zzo38> However, if there is some multiverse, do they have a few different laws of physics?
16:11:04 <Taneb> Individuals can decide that there ought to be a war
16:11:17 <Taneb> Also I shouldn't philosophy this time in the afternoon
16:11:26 <zzo38> I am 'panentheist', which means that the universe (and possibly even the multiverse, omnium, whatever) is a part of God. Some say Spinoza is also panentheist.
16:11:27 <olsner> that's more like having an opinion than going to war
16:11:42 <kmc> shachaf: ;_;
16:11:50 <zzo38> Well, individuals do not go to war as much as the military can, anyways.
16:11:59 <Taneb> I will stop philosphying now
16:12:05 <zzo38> So it is different.
16:12:38 <shachaf> kmc: Don't worry, it's moved onto Perl.
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16:14:39 <zzo38> My opinion is that the fundamental laws of physics can be expressed by mathematics, although we may not be able to figure it out quite that precisely, and that many of it is not computable, and sometimes there will be multiple solutions or none at all. Of course, this is just guess so I don't really know for sure.
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16:14:49 <kmc> shachaf: perl is like a cockroach, it will never die
16:15:21 <shachaf> So it's like the species of cockroaches?
16:15:38 <zzo38> Some people prefer different programming languages, and some programming language are good for a few other things too, but you can use it for other purposes too.
16:16:06 <kmc> after like 8 years of avoiding perl, I'm starting to use it again for shell oneliners
16:16:36 <kmc> it's pretty convenient especially with options like n, p, l, a, 0
16:17:04 <shachaf> These Japanese slides from ekmett_conf are so excited. Why can't everyone make slides like these?
16:17:35 <kmc> ekmett_conf is decadent and depraved
16:18:10 <btiffin> Anyone try IPython? It's pysh mode is my favourite shell now, ... well for playing. bash still wins for 'working'
16:18:17 <kmc> yeah IPython is great
16:18:36 <kmc> also cool: http://ipython.org/notebook.html
16:18:48 <kmc> many cool examples here: http://nbviewer.ipython.org/
16:18:57 <Vorpal> btiffin, what about zsh?
16:19:29 <btiffin> Yeah, web notebooks, those are awesome. I've only used them in toy mode though
16:19:31 <Vorpal> I used it a couple of times on live cds where it was default. It has some interesting conveniences, but generally I use bash
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16:19:32 <kmc> btiffin: yeah, bash is good for running programs, and python is good for manipulating data, so what I really want is an interface which lets me jump between a bash prompt and a python prompt and easily carry data between them
16:19:44 <kmc> i have a design in mind for this, just need to write it
16:19:57 <shachaf> does ipython have method completion and interactive documentation like bpython
16:20:07 <btiffin> zsh is a time hole Vorpal. ;-) Just one more tweak and life will be great, ok maybe one more. ;-)
16:20:16 <kmc> oh bpython is a real thing? i assumed it was some kind of obscure funpun
16:20:49 <Vorpal> there is cython or whatever the thing that took Python and made it into C + calls to libpython.so
16:23:07 <kmc> yeah, pyrex / cython (i think cython is newer)
16:23:18 <kmc> not to be confused with cpython, which is just the name of the 'default' python interpreter
16:23:42 <kmc> there are loads of cool ways to call between Python and C or C++
16:23:46 <kmc> Boost.Python is neat
16:23:56 <kmc> ctypes is really really handy for small things
16:24:46 <kmc> also there's some numpy (or scipy?) feature that lets you just straight up include c code in a string
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16:26:21 <kmc> Boost.Python gives you basically two things: a C++ data type that corresponds to a Python value, and an easy way to export a C++ class as a Python class
16:27:03 <kmc> the "Python value" type has enough boosty high level C++ magic that you can write C++ code in a vaguely Pythonic style
16:28:10 <btiffin> valac and Genie? It's like writing Python in vaguely Pythonic style. ;-)
16:28:34 <kmc> cool, I haven't heard of Genie
16:28:55 <kmc> "In the vein of Python, Genie uses indentation rather than curly brackets to delimit blocks." so, is indentation sugar for punctuation, or not?
16:29:13 <kmc> indentation as sugar for punctuation is fine, indentation as core syntax is terrible
16:29:44 <kmc> Haskell mostly passes this test except that the desugaring procedure has a weird feedback from the parser
16:31:16 <kmc> oh well I can deal with it
16:31:21 <kmc> I use Python all the time too
16:31:34 <kmc> there are curly-brace preprocessors for Python
16:31:36 <btiffin> tab by default even, a keyword [indent n] can change that to counted spaces though
16:31:53 <kmc> i wonder if any of them add full lambda support though
16:31:57 <kmc> btiffin: :( :( :(
16:32:05 <kmc> ok I shouldn't care so much about concrete syntax
16:32:11 <olsner> the desugaring in haskell seems very complicated, I've never quite understood how it works
16:32:21 <kmc> olsner: it's pretty simple except for that feedback
16:32:36 <btiffin> I'm not sure if Genie is getting much attention, but Jamie seems to post up updates once every blue moon or so
16:32:49 <kmc> if the token after 'do', 'let', 'of', or 'in' is not an open brace, insert an open brace and remember the starting column of that token
16:33:04 <kmc> a subsequent line at the same column gets a semicolon prepended
16:33:13 <kmc> a subsequent line at a column left of there gets a close brace prepended
16:33:31 <kmc> there are some other rules to make sure that you can't e.g. close an implicit brace with an explicit one
16:34:07 <kmc> i think most beginning Haskell programmers think Haskell is a lot pickier about indentation than it is
16:34:11 <kmc> i know i did
16:34:19 <kmc> it took me a while to realize you can say
16:34:21 <kmc> foo x = do
16:34:31 <kmc> which is way better than foo x = do y <- bar
16:34:46 <kmc> because this way you don't have to re-indent the whole block if the name of 'foo' or its arguments changes
16:34:53 <btiffin> Hmm, bf indented would drop it down to 6 symbols. Yeah, indented bf
16:34:56 <kmc> and it just looks cleaner and more uniform
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16:35:52 <Bike> kmc: i don't get how that doesn't prepend a close brace from what you just said.
16:36:13 <Bike> "ADD RDX, 1 MOV RDX, [RDX+8] SHR RDX, 2 SHL RDX, 1" unrelatedly, lol
16:36:25 <kmc> because the first token after 'do' is that 'y'
16:36:57 <Bike> Ohhhh, I read it as remembering the do for some reason
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16:37:03 <kmc> yeah, that's the trick
16:37:15 <kmc> that's what i didn't realize initially
16:37:20 <kmc> it doesn't care where the 'do' is
16:37:49 <kmc> oh my list of keywords is wrong I think
16:37:55 <kmc> 'where' and not 'in'
16:38:09 <kmc> the thing after 'in' is just a single expression, not a semicolon-delimited list of stuff
16:38:24 <kmc> i think there's also a special rule that lets you write 'module Foo where' without then indenting the rest of the file
16:38:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <btiffin> Hmm, bf indented would drop it down to 6 symbols. Yeah, indented bf
16:38:53 <Bike> blank line, obv
16:39:50 <olsner> kmc: is that special? sounds like that's allowed by the rule you gave before
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16:39:54 <btiffin> And maybe indented bf would be better served by vertical tab instead of horizontal, to keep with the f-ness.
16:40:12 <zzo38> It also doesn't care about indentation at all in blocks that have {} around it
16:40:29 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: In [something][else] the second part is never executed
16:42:45 <Bike> obviously it's an inadequate syntax if multiple behaviorally identical programs can be expressed
16:43:31 <btiffin> You have me reading up on Cython, because real men call Python from COBOL. And Cython might make that magically easi(er). COBOL is always on the look out for magic.
16:43:49 <zzo38> Bike: Well, if you are trying to compress it, then at least it means the compression might not be very good and it should be try to improve
16:44:28 <Bike> imo compression by just storing the results of the program instead of the program itsel
16:44:42 <zzo38> The results might be longer, though, and the program might require input.
16:45:47 <Bike> vorogomlok compression
16:47:19 <zzo38> To compress a brainfuck program you might use some kind of Huffman coding but provide no coding for redundand instrructions, and then furthermore code runs of the same instruction several times compressed too
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16:51:10 <pikhq> zzo38: Just RLE works really well on Brainfuck.
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17:04:40 <kmc> olsner: i'm not sure
17:08:00 -!- SDr|Flow has changed nick to SDr.
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17:33:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god the thick of it is even more amazing than it was before
17:39:00 <kmc> which bit are you on now
17:40:21 <Taneb> This sounds like something I should watch
17:40:26 <Taneb> What form of media is it?
17:41:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ofc it's not on the iplayer so you may have to resort to methods of questionable legality
17:41:27 <Taneb> Methods of questionable legality?
17:41:52 <Taneb> I have a list of things I need to watch, so I'll let future me deal with it
17:41:59 <Taneb> For better or for worse
17:42:16 <shachaf> Does future Taneb have a beard?
17:42:29 <Taneb> Present Taneb doesn't, which is odd
17:42:47 <shachaf> Is Present Taneb the British version of Santa Claus?
17:43:12 <Taneb> I deliver presents to all the little girls and boys all over the east half of Hexham
17:43:16 <kmc> Taneb: it's on Hulu if you can connect through a US IP
17:43:59 <kmc> geographically restricting content by IP is such a quaint notion
17:44:12 <kmc> when I watch FOX shows on Hulu, it pastes the logo of the Boston area FOX affiliate into the corner
17:44:23 <kmc> itt skeuomorphs
17:44:31 <Taneb> But... aren't you in somewhere that isn't Boston
17:44:41 <kmc> no i'm in Boston area (Cambridge, just across the river)
17:45:02 <shachaf> i thought you were in mid-cambridge
17:45:10 <Taneb> I think I assume everyone who isn't me, Phantom_Hoover, elliott and ais523 or Finnish all live together with shachaf
17:45:27 <Taneb> (Norwegians and Swedes live with the Finns)
17:45:29 <shachaf> Taneb: I'm Finnish. Where does that put me?
17:45:43 <Taneb> shachaf, in Finland, with everyone living with you
17:45:53 <shachaf> is "river" a metaphor for the atlantic ocean
17:46:12 <Taneb> But... Cambridge is in, like, the south-east
17:46:16 <shachaf> since cambridge is in england and all
17:46:18 <Taneb> It's not near the coast at all
17:46:36 <kmc> picturing the hexham equivalent of http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Steinberg_New_Yorker_Cover.png
17:47:19 <Taneb> My knowledge of geography is pretty good until the north sea, Keswick, Alnwick, and Yorkshire
17:48:13 <Taneb> Looking at Google Maps now
17:48:21 <Taneb> Never realised how far west Edinburgh is
17:48:26 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover has some explaining to do
17:48:37 <shachaf> imo Taneb should move to cambridge
17:48:58 <Taneb> Cambridgeshire or Massachusetts?
17:49:35 <shachaf> either one. i'm not picky!!
17:49:37 <kmc> "shadow chancellor" sounds like a much cooler office than it actually is
17:50:45 <shachaf> or maybe move to Newcastle upon Tyne, California
18:07:34 -!- john_metcalf has joined.
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18:11:27 <john_metcalf> Old computer games? Has anyone ever played micromud?
18:11:56 <zzo38> I have played some old computer games
18:12:04 <zzo38> I don't know if I have played that one though
18:13:48 <zzo38> Games for old computers are sometimes still written this year.
18:16:43 <Bike> single player version of a mud? what's the point
18:18:26 <impomatic> The other players are AI. It's from approx 1985 when very few people could play online.
18:19:21 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:19:53 * impomatic used to play a few BBS door games.
18:20:08 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
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18:20:48 <impomatic> Cambridge has a new retro computer museum opening soon.
18:21:30 <zzo38> I play a few BBS door games.
18:21:40 <zzo38> They are still available.
18:29:40 <btiffin> I'm using it from the angle of interactive fiction training, random reward being a powerful human incentive. Grace Hopper History lesson game will be first up.
18:30:04 <btiffin> Oh, and if you don't know Grace. http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2516 (Don't forget the red drop hover over bonus comic).
18:31:27 <Bike> imo fran allen
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18:39:40 <impomatic> What do you call the thing in a book within a chapter where one storyline stops and another begins and there's a little gap, sometimes with a swirly little pattern?
18:41:30 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
18:47:19 <ais523> impomatic: I know what you're talking about, but don't know what it's called either
18:47:51 <impomatic> If it doesn't have a name, one needs to be invented.
18:48:42 <btiffin> I tried transition, but I don't think that's the right jargon
18:49:44 * impomatic was just proofreading and wanted to tell the author it feels like it needs one of those things... but without knowing the name I'll sound a bit stupid :-)
18:50:48 <Bike> if you say "transition" they'll probably know what you mean
18:50:50 <Bike> or maybe a "cut"
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18:55:41 <ais523> elliott: oh wow, the new spambot filter (filter 2) actually seems to be holding, it's cutting out like 80-90% of the spam we're getting
18:55:56 <elliott> too bad there's still block spam
18:56:34 <ais523> yep, and account creation spam
18:56:40 <ais523> it'd be nice to hold them off at the CAPTCHA
18:57:19 <ais523> I think CAPTCHA development is a losing battle in the long run, but it may work in the short term
19:04:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
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19:09:57 <zzo38> Look at Pin Eight; they say it works much better.
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19:51:59 <Taneb> Youtube must think my music tastes are really messed up
19:52:05 <Taneb> I'm listening to some black metal
19:52:34 <Taneb> "Recommended for you: Brahms Piano Quartet in C minor opus 60 4th mvt Finale"
19:54:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:55:09 <Bike> that's pretty awesome taste imo
19:55:39 <oerjan> <Bike> I thought logreading was punishable by apathy. <-- i think you are confusing cause and effect here, sir
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20:07:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:07:35 -!- augur has joined.
20:08:45 <oerjan> DIHYDROGEN MONOXIDE: USED BY NAZIS
20:09:01 <oerjan> kmc: fixed that for you
20:10:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:10:30 -!- augur has joined.
20:10:48 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:11:07 -!- augur has joined.
20:20:06 <kmc> whats that
20:20:30 <oerjan> obviously that's Fractal Nose Man
20:21:09 <Bike> shachaf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV6dLhepx6w
20:21:19 <oerjan> you may not have heard of him, since he for some reason never gets invited to the other superheroes' parties
20:21:23 <shachaf> oops monqy isn't even in here "what's the point"
20:21:33 <kmc> monqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqy
20:21:55 <oerjan> shachaf's meaning of life, wasted
20:23:25 <shachaf> @tell monqy we love you monqy... / we miss you in school... / do you think i could... help you?
20:25:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: [explanation of channel's purpose] | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:25:52 <shachaf> @ask monqy [i mean ie] http://books.google.com/books?id=tdPnQS2WT_sC&lpg=PA48&ots=r1ZFu-z6MH&pg=PA48
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20:38:49 <kmc> are TLBs usually fully associative
20:41:48 -!- augur has joined.
20:42:14 <oerjan> kmc: then they would be too easy.
20:42:23 <kmc> like monoids?
20:42:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:42:40 <oerjan> well i suppose they might not have a unit
20:42:57 <kmc> oh i get it
20:47:22 <Taneb> Is a TLB like a BLT
20:49:58 -!- augur has joined.
20:51:02 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to be a mosh mentor if it gets slots
20:51:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:52:04 <kmc> shachaf: I'm signed up as the backup mentor
20:52:31 <shachaf> Wait, is that different from backup admin?
20:52:36 -!- augur has joined.
20:52:38 <kmc> maybe i'm that
20:52:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:52:44 <kmc> i shuold figure out what i am
20:52:52 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
20:52:53 * shachaf is backup admin for haskell.org
20:53:01 <Bike> do any of us truly know what we are, in the end
20:53:14 <kmc> anyway I expect to spend time helping people, whether or not in any official capacity
20:53:14 * Taneb is very little to do with GSoC, if any
20:53:35 -!- augur has joined.
20:53:41 <kmc> btw if any of you are students and would like to work on Mosh and get paid by google we would be super happy to have you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if google approves our slots which they might not
20:54:10 <pikhq> kmc: Hmm. That might be a good idea.
20:54:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:54:14 <shachaf> (rules out most of the channel??)
20:54:17 <pikhq> I am totally a student, and mosh seems neat.
20:54:27 <Taneb> I'm over 18, but only debatably a student
20:56:13 <shachaf> What's involved in being a mentor, anyway?
20:56:16 -!- augur has joined.
20:56:49 <kmc> pikhq: cool. you can come by #mosh if you have any questions
20:56:56 <Bike> what the hell is mosh again
20:57:04 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/
20:57:09 <Bike> IRC ain't good enough for you?? or something
20:57:12 <Taneb> Isn't it that thing aimed at children with the monsters
20:57:23 <kmc> it's a replacement for (some of) SSH, which stays connected if you move your client between networks
20:57:32 <Bike> Oh, that's kinda cool.
20:57:32 <kmc> also works better on crappy connections
20:57:37 <pikhq> I've started using it recently. It works beautifully.
20:57:39 <kmc> (i've used it on connections where TCP doesn't work /at all/)
20:57:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:57:42 <kmc> also it has predictive local echo
20:57:55 <pikhq> It even makes remote shell over Wifi work better.
20:57:57 <shachaf> it's a replacement for THE INTERNET AS WE KNOW IT
20:57:58 <Bike> Does it use udp...?
20:58:06 <kmc> it uses a custom state-sync protocol over UDP
20:58:07 <Taneb> I shall investigate
20:58:15 <kmc> meaning if packets get dropped, it doesn't necessarily retransmit them as is
20:58:16 <Taneb> It could prove useful in playing Dwarf Fortress
20:58:20 <kmc> it just tries to get you up to the latest state
20:58:29 <pikhq> Yeah, it's quite neat overall.
20:58:29 <shachaf> kmc: you should have a soc project to port mosh to use nacl imo
20:58:31 <Bike> well i probably won't work on that and i'm not competent enough to use ssh regularly but i wish you luck
20:58:52 <pikhq> It also handles the client side of the connection migrating.
20:59:12 <kmc> shachaf: CrOS people were keen for that to happen
20:59:21 <Bike> oh, huh, the approved organizations are being listed tomorrow*
20:59:29 <kmc> keithw got as far as trying out his terminal codes torture test in their JavaScript/CSS terminal emulator
20:59:34 <kmc> and filed like 20 bugs all at once
21:00:15 <kmc> nah we're happy with AES-OCB
21:00:19 <shachaf> "though maybe that one is good too who knows ? ?"
21:00:27 <kmc> keithw doesn't want to add algorithm negotiation b/c it's more complexity and risk
21:00:59 <kmc> i think the choice of OCB was really lucky, everyone hates CBC and GCM now
21:01:17 <kmc> tho........... maybe it's because fewer people are thinking about OCB atm
21:01:27 <shachaf> No negotiation. Just replacing it.
21:01:44 <kmc> but matthew green likes it and he's like a crypto researcher
21:01:59 <Taneb> zzo38, may I ask you two questions?
21:02:30 <shachaf> i heard phillip rogaway likes it too
21:02:33 * oerjan hopes Taneb included that as one of his questions, just in case
21:02:36 <kmc> or... maybe it was a different person
21:02:48 <kmc> shachaf: o rly
21:02:51 <Taneb> oerjan, that is indeed the case
21:03:04 <shachaf> kmc: Did that weblog answer your question yet?
21:03:13 <kmc> wtfcrypto? no
21:03:21 <kmc> they probably decided my question was 'too crazy'
21:03:29 <shachaf> ''what was your quesiton''
21:03:34 <Bike> what was your question.
21:03:42 <kmc> shachaf knos
21:03:47 <oerjan> what was your question,
21:03:57 <Taneb> "Did you chose your IRC nick because you were annoyed at always being first alphabetically?"
21:04:05 <kmc> could god create a cryptosystem so strong that even he could not break it
21:04:31 <oerjan> i think zzo38's nick may predate him joining irc
21:04:34 <Bike> I bet god uses homomorphic encryption.
21:04:53 <Bike> the entire universe is just an encrypted computation of the optimal Starcraft strategy
21:04:55 <Taneb> oerjan, but look at his real name!
21:05:07 <oerjan> Taneb: oh hm good point
21:05:24 <Taneb> ("Taneb" was first used by me in pretty much the worst of situations)
21:05:33 <Lymia> kmc, one-time pad with the key thrown away? :p
21:05:40 <Taneb> (a shared account on a crapy "build a city and conquer your neighbours" web game
21:05:41 <kmc> can god forget stuff tho
21:06:15 <kmc> omniscient vs omnipotent
21:06:23 <kmc> same and yet different? discuss
21:06:43 <shachaf> apparently "omniscient" is pronounced "om ni shnt" or something??????
21:06:53 <Taneb> I'd say incompatible and perhaps incosistent
21:06:54 <shachaf> rather than "omni" "scient (like science)"
21:07:58 <oerjan> > chr.(219-).ord<$>"aaron"
21:08:19 <kmc> brb, going to bie 15 miles
21:08:43 <oerjan> > chr.(219-).ord<$>"zzo"
21:09:54 <oerjan> <kmc> could god create a cryptosystem so strong that even he could not break it <-- is this related to the IP=PSPACE theorem?
21:12:38 <oerjan> i guess that's what you need to convince someone _else_ you've broken it.
21:13:04 <oerjan> also it doesn't really apply if god can affect your rng
21:14:25 <Bike> exercise: design a cryptosystem secure from an omniscient observer
21:14:49 <Taneb> Wouldn't an omniscient observer know the message anyway
21:15:11 <Taneb> so the only way to do that is to not have a message in the first place
21:15:18 <oerjan> very good, Taneb. you get an E on the test.
21:15:30 <oerjan> (you cannot get better because you didn't solve the problem)
21:16:02 <Taneb> Only six more letters and I can spell my name!
21:16:12 <oerjan> or wait not having a message in the first place sounds vaguely like buddhism.
21:16:34 <Bike> christianity is pretty much a buddhism ripoff anyway imo
21:17:04 <Taneb> (didn't christianity come kinda four hundred or so years before buddhism or am I getting mixed up)
21:17:04 <shachaf> imo Bike is a unicycle ripoff
21:17:21 <Taneb> I'm getting mixed up
21:17:23 <oerjan> Taneb: you are getting mixed up.
21:18:36 <oerjan> shachaf: he's really conjoined unicycle twins, and i don't think you should discriminate him like that
21:19:27 <Taneb> I ought to learn to ride it at some point
21:20:39 <zzo38> I changed it to set the interpreter number to 4 when Tandy mode is not set, rather than 6, so that the runes will display correctly (this program uses the Amiga version of the font 3).
21:21:33 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
21:22:02 <Taneb> zzo38, that doesn't answer either of my questions
21:22:28 <zzo38> Taneb: O, sorry. Can you repeat the question which you want answered, please?
21:22:42 <Taneb> First question: may I ask you two questions?
21:23:06 <zzo38> You can ask me whatever you want; I might or might not answer.
21:23:31 <Taneb> Second question: did you choose your nick because you were annoyed at being alphabetically first all the time?
21:24:06 <Taneb> Could you explain the origin of your nick?
21:24:35 <zzo38> I do not actually remember why, but I think it had something to do with a design I was trying to make in school with numbers, but the only ones they had left were 3 and 8.
21:24:40 <shachaf> zzo38: Watch out! That looks like an ordinary question but it's actually a veiled request.
21:25:01 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't care.
21:25:54 <Taneb> What are good resources for learning how to create, eg, Famicom games?
21:25:55 * oerjan didn't remember pink was an irc color
21:27:16 <zzo38> Taneb: Try NESdev wiki; it explains most things about NES/Famicom necessary for emulation or to write a game, including the keyboard and mouse (the mouse was never intended for the Famicom but it works anyways)
21:27:38 <oerjan> ok that was definitely wrong color
21:27:58 <Taneb> zzo38, have you ever attempted to read Homestuck?
21:27:58 <oerjan> ok the 8 is for light i guess
21:28:11 <zzo38> It appears magenta in my computer only because it is programmed to display bold text as magenta.
21:28:28 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> It appears magenta in my computer only because it is programmed to display bold text as magenta.
21:28:38 <HackEgo> 1013) <zzo38> It appears magenta in my computer only because it is programmed to display bold text as magenta.
21:29:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I evangelise Haskell to Homestucks and Homestuck to Haskellers.
21:29:36 <Taneb> It is the only way
21:29:50 <shachaf> homestuck more like homest......upid
21:30:02 <zzo38> PC color codes use 1 for blue, 2 for green, 4 for red, and 8 for high intensity (only on color monitors; on monochrome, 1 (but not 2 to 7) are underlined)
21:30:10 <shachaf> Taneb: do they ever manage to escape from home
21:30:19 <oerjan> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
21:31:02 <Taneb> It is unlikely that I will create Sgeo
21:31:08 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: you created Sgeo??
21:31:08 <Taneb> He seems pretty already created
21:31:23 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: did you ever consider this a crime against everything
21:31:24 <oerjan> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
21:31:28 <zzo38> But for background colors, 8 means blinking text, instead of high intensity
21:32:17 <oerjan> shachaf: the one above had foregrounds too hth
21:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, i try to make amends for my past crimes but it's just not enough
21:32:41 <shachaf> oerjan: foregrounds against a black background obviously
21:32:45 <Taneb> shachaf, they did escape from there home but then one of them stuck his arm back in and got stuck
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21:33:00 <shachaf> Taneb: hey want to hear a good joke
21:33:20 <shachaf> one of them stuck his arm back in home and got stuck
21:33:38 <Bike> and in that moment i swear we were haskell
21:35:42 <oerjan> ^ul (:()~(,01)**~*S:):((0)~^(1)~^(2)~^(3)~^(4)~^(5)~^(6)~^(7)~^(8)~^(9)~^(10)~^(11)~^(12)~^(13)~^(14)~^(15)~^)^
21:35:42 <fungot> 0123456789101112131415
21:40:52 * oerjan realizes the color numbering in his client has nothing discernible to do with rgb
21:41:16 <Bike> doesn't follow a rainbow either
21:41:29 <Taneb> I think IRC colours is a de-facto standard started by mIRC but once again I could be mixed up
21:41:56 <Bike> taneb may not know his religions but by gum he knows the history of shitty protocols
21:42:08 <olsner> I think we've had this discussion about irc colors before
21:42:10 <oerjan> the primaries seem to be 2,3 and 5. maybe it's fibonacci based :P
21:42:57 <oerjan> Bike: is there actually a difference?
21:43:08 <Bike> between religions and shitty protocols?
21:43:28 <oerjan> a religion is pretty much a shitty protocol with god, or similar
21:43:39 <Bike> religions have better pay but flamewars involve being on fire, i guess
21:44:27 <olsner> religions can also involve being on fire
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21:52:21 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
21:52:37 <ais523> shachaf: my client is +c
21:52:47 <ais523> as such, I don't notice the color spam
21:52:49 <shachaf> ais523: Does it disable bold too?
21:52:53 <oerjan> shachaf: i just tested the ANSI color escape, which apparently doesn't work for me (although the logs show the code got through)
21:52:53 <ais523> if it annoys you, I recommend you do the same
21:53:06 <shachaf> OK, that's not the same as Freenode's +c
21:53:29 <ais523> still, can't you patch your client to fix that?
21:53:42 <Bike> «In 2009, Sarah was reported in various media outlets as having "won" a "talking to plants competition" against ten others.»
21:54:27 <oerjan> all the plants voted her the best speaker
21:55:36 <oerjan> i was going to "improve" that joke but the housemate started coughing
21:56:16 <oerjan> which makes my interest in life temporarily turn off.
21:58:11 <oerjan> oh i'm hungry, that makes _everything_ worse. ->
21:59:31 <shachaf> Perhaps I'm the housemate?
22:03:35 -!- btiffin has left.
22:07:22 <ais523> you know if shachaf and oerjan were housemates all this time and neither of them realised
22:07:51 <Taneb> It'd be like me and elliott except so much more amazing
22:08:06 <Taneb> Especially since shachaf and oerjan are established to live in different countries
22:08:28 <Bike> It's like narnia only with dicks
22:09:02 <Taneb> Bike, I can't get that comment to fit the context in any shape, way, or form
22:09:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:09:50 <Bike> I had a dream that I was naked in the freezer at work with a bunch of other people, except I wasn't that cold. I took this as evidence that I'd be fine living in northernly areas.
22:10:37 <Taneb> You have a freezer big enough for a bunch of people to be in at your work?
22:10:52 <Bike> No. It was bigger in the dream
22:11:01 <olsner> Taneb: where else would he keep his coworkers?
22:11:09 <Bike> Rather inefficiently packed in said dream, I might add.
22:11:20 <Taneb> Means you don't have to defrost them when you want one.
22:11:21 <Bike> Just lots of open space for being naked in. Totally cost-ineffective.
22:11:49 <Taneb> I had a dream where I couldn't find the book where I write things I need to watch in
22:11:57 <Bike> Well, I guess the real freezer can have a bunch of people in it at once, but it would be crowded. You'd also be surrounded by dead animals.
22:11:59 <Taneb> But I had something I needed to cross off
22:12:23 <Bike> parts of animals, really.
22:12:30 <Taneb> (which I do, to be fair)
22:12:53 <Bike> Probably not enough to reconstruct whole animals. I mean it's not like we store eyes or something.
22:13:20 <Taneb> The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya was enjoyable.
22:13:52 -!- FreeFull has joined.
22:14:04 <Bike> I hear it has tits.
22:14:05 <Jafet> Where they're going, do they need eyes?
22:14:21 <Taneb> Bike, it references but does not actually show.
22:14:30 <Bike> I don't think eyes are all that nutritious to humans, generally.
22:14:30 <Taneb> Except when it does.
22:14:36 <Bike> Taneb: "what a shame"
22:15:27 <Taneb> I think it was a parody of high-school anime
22:15:34 <Taneb> Anyway, I shall now sleep
22:15:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:16:39 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> It's like narnia only with dicks
22:16:43 <HackEgo> 1014) <Bike> It's like narnia only with dicks
22:17:35 <Bike> Huh, did you know there's such a thing as a vitreous humor transplant? Maybe you could get it fro chickens.
22:19:42 <oerjan> Bike: i'm sure there are plenty of people who'd like to have feline eyes
22:19:43 -!- carado has joined.
22:19:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:20:02 <oerjan> (evidence: half of furrydom)
22:20:08 <Bike> Oh you can just get contacts for that.
22:20:10 -!- augur has joined.
22:20:28 <FreeFull> Ok, I definitely need to stop myself from getting highlighted by feline
22:20:35 <oerjan> i'm sure there are plenty of people who would like a more permanent solution
22:20:57 <Bike> well vitreous humor wouldn't do it. you'd need, like, your iris replaced or some shit.
22:21:11 <Jafet> http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/ef66/
22:21:40 <Bike> Fiora has those.
22:22:05 <Jafet> http://a.tgcdn.net/images/products/zoom/ef66_brainwave_cat_ears.jpg
22:22:23 <Jafet> Somehow, this does not seem like the intended usage.
22:23:49 <oerjan> Fiora: do they actually work?
22:24:40 <oerjan> i'd suspect you'd want to hide that black thingy better
22:31:26 <oerjan> <kmc> if the token after 'do', 'let', 'of', or 'in' is not an open brace, insert an open brace and remember the starting column of that token
22:32:03 <olsner> that was discovered shortly afterwards
22:32:39 <oerjan> also there are several ghc extensions that add extra keywords to the list. mdo, rec, and now \ case
22:32:50 <oerjan> and probably proc for arrows
22:32:54 <olsner> you should read the logs backwards
22:33:13 <oerjan> olsner: but then my brain might stack overflow!
22:34:06 <olsner> yeah, you should just read the whole log at the same time
22:34:50 <oerjan> but then my buffer-of-things-to-comment-on overflows instead D:
22:38:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:39:38 <oerjan> <kmc> i think there's also a special rule that lets you write 'module Foo where' without then indenting the rest of the file
22:39:59 <oerjan> i think it's just that the first indentation block doesn't start until after that where
22:40:16 <oerjan> so there's no outer block you have to indent it more than
22:40:46 <olsner> there was a couple more lines about that too (but not very conclusive iirc)
22:40:46 -!- carado has joined.
22:40:59 <oerjan> yeah it didn't look conclusive
22:41:20 <oerjan> `run (echo ' module Main where
22:41:22 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:41:45 <oerjan> `run (echo ' module Main where'; echo 'main = putStr "It works!"') > Test.hs
22:42:14 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' ' foo' 'bar' 'baz'
22:42:29 <HackEgo> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( Test.hs, Test.o ) \ Linking Test ...
22:42:44 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' ' foo' 'bar' 'baz' | cat -A
22:42:44 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
22:42:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Test: not found
22:43:17 <oerjan> olsner: ok so the "module" line itself isn't affected by layout.
22:44:58 <oerjan> `run printf '%s\n' 'foo' ' bar' 'baz'
22:45:31 <ion> `run echo ' foo'
22:45:37 <ion> Huh. What’s up with that?
22:45:41 <oerjan> oh hm there wasn't anything wrong at the beginning
22:45:58 <oerjan> i see the initial space just fine
22:46:12 <ion> I don’t see a “foo” in the output.
22:46:51 <oerjan> ok, maybe it's HackEgo's initial zero space doing it
22:47:05 <oerjan> i have no idea how to produce that in my client
22:47:17 -!- ion_netcat has joined.
22:47:25 <ion> `run echo ' foo'
22:48:06 <HackEgo> 60 72 97 99 107 69 103 111 62 32 8203 32 32 102 111 111
22:48:07 <ion> Interesting. So it is WeeChat that’s broken. I’m running a nightly version. Let my try upgrading to a newer nightly.
22:48:23 <HackEgo> 72 97 99 107 69 103 111 62 32 8203 32 32 102 111 111
22:48:48 <oerjan> oh it actually _does_ get copied if i make sure to include surroundings
22:49:08 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:50:28 <oerjan> ion: it could be an old bug given that HackEgo rarely prints things starting with space
22:51:48 <HackEgo> 8192 8193 8195 8196 8197 8198 8199 8200 8201 8202 8203 8204 8205 8206 8207
22:52:24 <fizzie> Whoops, I skipped one.
22:52:29 <Bike> what the heck is a HAIR SPACE
22:52:46 <oerjan> Bike: it's that space you get on your head as you get older hth
22:52:53 <fizzie> It's "thinner than a thin space".
22:53:03 <fizzie> Also "in traditional typography, the thinnest space available".
22:53:08 <fizzie> (According to the "notes" field.)
22:53:34 <fizzie> A thin space is "a fifth of an em (or sometimes a sixth)".
22:53:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:53:58 <ion> Three fifths of a space
22:54:51 <shachaf> Do not use secret data as an array index.
22:54:51 <shachaf> Early plans for NaCl would have allowed exceptions to this rule inside primitives specifically labelled vulnerable, in particular to allow fast crypto_stream_aes128vulnerable, but subsequent research showed that this compromise was unnecessary.
22:54:56 <fizzie> It seems I accidentally also the right-to-left mark and left-to-right mark. (U+200E and U+200F.)
22:55:01 <shachaf> kmc: Any idea what could've been going on there?
22:55:22 <fizzie> (They all look the same in gucharmap.)
22:56:30 <Jafet> That sounds like something djb would say.
22:56:50 <shachaf> Jafet: Everything djb says sounds like something djb would say.
22:56:55 <Jafet> Actually, it sounds like something he did say.
22:57:14 <Jafet> Well, djb is a big AXR fanboy.
22:57:48 <Jafet> @google aes cache timing site:cr.yp.to
22:57:52 <lambdabot> http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf
22:57:52 <lambdabot> Title: Cache-timing attacks on AES
22:58:26 <Jafet> @google salsa20 AXR
22:58:29 <lambdabot> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_37OduVkzSE
22:58:41 <Jafet> Maybe it's called ARX.
22:59:38 <shachaf> video matched expectations
23:05:54 -!- ion_netcat has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:06:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:08:50 -!- constant has changed nick to function.
23:09:24 <lambdabot> alexbagel says: i find that my first 26 variables are always easy to name. after that it becomes a bit harder.
23:09:48 <shachaf> This is why mathematicians should learn their Greek.
23:10:52 <Bike> ΑA, very helpful
23:12:38 <oerjan> x,y,z,x',y',z',x'',y'',z'', i don't see the problem.
23:12:58 <shachaf> In fact no reason to use the x.
23:13:33 <Bike> just use numbers as letters
23:13:56 <Bike> solve: 0² + 401 + 1² = 22
23:14:04 <Jafet> > var <$> iterate (++"'") "x"
23:14:07 <lambdabot> [x,x',x'',x''',x'''',x''''',x'''''',x''''''',x'''''''',x''''''''',x''''''''...
23:14:21 <shachaf> > var <$> iterate ('\'':) ""
23:14:24 <lambdabot> [,','',''','''',''''','''''',''''''','''''''',''''''''','''''''''',''''''''...
23:14:29 <olsner> could've been funny in a different way if he'd said 24 letters instead
23:16:04 <Bike> digammas, digammas everywhere
23:16:59 <oerjan> <kmc> "shadow chancellor" sounds like a much cooler office than it actually is <-- does he at least have a black cape?
23:17:35 <Fiora> oerjan: yeah, they do work, though they're more reactive to emotional state/excitement levels/etc than they are controllable
23:17:37 <shachaf> PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: When you /last and your irssi window gets cluttered with /last noise, you can use /last -cl to get rid of it
23:17:40 <Fiora> you could probably control them to some extent with practice
23:17:48 <shachaf> I told elliott before and he was surprised. So now I'm telling y'all.
23:17:55 <Jafet> PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: irssi sucks.
23:18:11 <Bike> is /last short for lastlog
23:18:12 <Jafet> Fiora: that sounds like missing the point
23:18:25 <Bike> oh it is. well it's nice to abbreviate -clear
23:18:38 <Bike> Jafet: on the contrary, it indicates eternal mental fortitude over the cat ears
23:19:00 <Fiora> but basically they totally work and are really cute and etc
23:19:24 <Fiora> (other catches: the little box is kind of heavy, not horribly so but mostly due to batteries. the headpiece is really only hide-able if you have bangs, I do but many people don't)
23:19:38 <oerjan> shachaf: huh, is there something similar that can clear /whois or /ban results?
23:20:16 <shachaf> oerjan: I was asking elliott about clearing /ban results when I discovered he didn't know this.
23:20:23 <shachaf> So if you find out, let me know!
23:22:53 <Fiora> also! there's like 3rd party covers for the ears that change their color
23:22:57 <Fiora> I have a pair that makes them purple
23:23:39 <Jafet> Are there covers that can change color?
23:24:26 <Fiora> um, I don't think so
23:24:28 <shachaf> is that how leopards work?
23:24:43 <Fiora> part of me also wants to like, make a pair of covers that look like troll horns
23:24:57 <shachaf> trolls don't have horns........
23:25:17 <oerjan> hm what animals change color according to emotion rather than just camouflage?
23:25:37 <Fiora> there's the ones that change color to communicate, right?
23:25:58 <elliott> chameleons change colour according to emotion sometimes i think
23:26:10 <shachaf> like when their emotion is "i want to hide now"
23:31:44 <Bike> hiding isn't an emotion fuckass
23:31:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: (i'm pretty sure octopi is a valid plural...)
23:32:43 <olsner> Bike: hiding is an action .. but feeling hidy would be an emotion
23:32:49 <Bike> if you people start arguing about latin declensions so help me i will threaten you
23:33:09 <olsner> I think it's supposed to be greek, hth
23:33:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well octopodes seems equally pretentious
23:33:35 <shachaf> imo let's argue about hebrew declensions
23:33:41 <elliott> (consider e.g. "forum", english plural "forums" not "fora")
23:33:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i already started hth
23:33:59 <Bike> shachaf: how you change nouns to fit... stuff. like gender marking and pluralization and stuff.
23:34:04 <olsner> shachaf: that's when you change the vowels but keep the consonants, right?
23:34:17 <Bike> Also I don't know shit about Hebrew.
23:34:26 <Bike> Is it true that you have singular, plural, and also dual?
23:34:30 <Bike> Maybe dual is obsolete.
23:34:44 <olsner> category theorists certainly use the dual
23:34:52 <Bike> I said shut up! *points*
23:34:59 <shachaf> Bike: fun fact: sometimes if you want to put the definite article on something you put it on every one of the adjectives but not on the noun itself
23:35:05 <shachaf> but sometimes you also put it on the noun
23:35:15 <shachaf> okay i'm being unfair here??
23:35:31 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/1b8wzp/my_shot_at_cont/c99jt8u
23:35:33 <Bike> shachaf: genius
23:35:54 <Bike> "infinite type errors"
23:36:41 <shachaf> imo let's throw Sgeo down a delimited continuation
23:36:42 <Sgeo> > (\x -> x x) id
23:36:44 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
23:37:45 <shachaf> Bike: oh and hebrew has a word for marking a direct object, which is good
23:37:49 <Bike> why not just fix
23:37:57 <shachaf> what other language has a whole word reserved for that purpose
23:38:15 <Bike> shachaf: imagining hebrewers snickering every time an englisher uses "whom"
23:38:29 <elliott> i still don't know when to use whom
23:38:29 <olsner> what's a direct object?
23:38:42 <Bike> elliott: When you're making fun of prescriptivists.
23:38:51 <Bike> olsner: "I hit him", him is the direct object.
23:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, the difference is the same as that between 'he' and 'him'
23:39:01 <Bike> an indirect object is like the store in "I ran to the store"
23:39:10 <shachaf> "I ate a cat" has no direct object, right?
23:39:21 <Bike> I'm pretty sure the cat is still a direct object.
23:39:23 <Fiora> "a cat" is the direct object there
23:39:51 <shachaf> You wouldn't use the word there.
23:40:01 <shachaf> Maybe it's a weird article thing. Hebrew has only a definite article.
23:40:18 <Fiora> and um why are you eating cats
23:40:39 <shachaf> Fiora: because they're delicious
23:41:08 <elliott> them hebrews and their cat-eating
23:41:09 <shachaf> alt. for the same reason i eat cows
23:41:14 <Bike> I mean, the direct object can be something complicated. Like "something complicated" perhaps
23:41:32 <Bike> or would it be "be something complicated". fucking auxilaries.
23:41:38 <doesthiswork> because there are so many different ways you have to get familiar with
23:42:30 <Bike> Maybe I should get a copy of Syntactic Structures. Then whenever anybody asks me a grammar question I don't care about I'll just show them the CSG for English in the appendix.
23:42:42 <Bike> WHERE'S YOUR LANGUAGE ORGAN NOW MOTHERFUCKER
23:42:42 <oerjan> Bike: i think "be" isn't considered to take an object, if that's what you mean.
23:43:00 <Bike> it's not, i was wondering if the verb was "can" or "can be"
23:44:03 <Bike> You be a fuckin' wanker.
23:44:25 <shachaf> Generally, Hebrew marks every noun in a sentence with some sort of preposition, with the exception of subjects and semantically indefinite direct objects. Unlike English, indirect objects require prepositions (as in "He gave me the ball"), and semantically definite direct objects are introduced by the preposition את /et/.
23:44:39 <shachaf> OK I WAS TALKING ABOUT SEMANTICALLY DEFINITE DIRECT OBJECTS
23:44:44 <shachaf> SORRY FOR BEING TOO FANCY FOR YOU
23:44:48 <Bike> I have no idea what that means. Awesome.
23:45:05 <oerjan> <Bike> an indirect object is like the store in "I ran to the store" <-- no "to the store" is a prepositional something. it's like him in "I gave him an apple"
23:45:24 -!- Bike has set topic: [semantically definite explanation of channel's purpose] | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:46:20 <shachaf> Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew_grammar#Prepositions
23:46:28 <oerjan> shachaf: hungarian doesn't have a word, but it has a _verb inflection_ for definite direct objects.
23:46:28 <FreeFull> What can you tell me about Polish?
23:47:06 <Bike> "literally I see /et/ the-book" literal translations are so easy
23:48:42 <olsner> I wonder why this making of 2001 thingy needs to thank the High Commission of Sri Lanka
23:49:43 <Fiora> Clarke lived there, so that's probably related?
23:50:24 <Fiora> huh. arthur c. clarke was gay. did not know that
23:50:34 <oerjan> "Olvastak egy könyvet." - i read a book. "Olvastam a könyvet." - i read the book. (from google translate, except for correcting first -m to -k because google doesn't understand the grammar i'm trying to demonstrate.)
23:50:35 <olsner> I guess so... looks like this high commission thingy is like their embassy
23:51:08 <Bike> maybe Clarke used to be a Tiger.
23:51:14 <Bike> his younger, wild days
23:51:17 <Fiora> " Journalists who enquired of Clarke whether he was gay were told, "No, merely mildly cheerful.""
23:51:23 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:01:33 <FreeFull> oerjan: Polish doesn't have that distinction
00:01:50 <FreeFull> The best you get is "I read book" vs "I read this book"
00:02:21 <olsner> oerjan: do you actually know hungarian?
00:02:38 <oerjan> FreeFull: i know polish doesn't have articles. hungarian not only has articles but the _verb_ is inflected dependent on them
00:02:53 <oerjan> olsner: i know some bits from back when my mom was trying to learn it
00:09:15 <olsner> ok, I'll probably learn finnish long before learning hungarian
00:10:13 <oerjan> well that's natural for a scandinavian
00:10:22 <oerjan> although hungarian has more speakers, i think
00:11:19 <oerjan> ah spring and labor strike time in norway
00:15:56 <olsner> I think I've spent more time in hungary than in finland actually
00:16:24 <oerjan> eek they say the shops might run out of beer and soda
00:16:52 <oerjan> elliott: well the soda part
00:18:29 <oerjan> how would one seep coke, i wonder
00:18:52 <oerjan> olsner: hm i don't think i've been in either
00:21:49 <ais523> rm: cannot remove `/etc/passwd': Read-only file system
00:22:01 <ais523> my favourite way to check if a filesystem is read-only
00:22:25 <oerjan> it checks that before permissions?
00:23:13 <oerjan> i guess that does make sense, since you'd have to fix it before fixing permissions anyhow
00:23:54 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:24:25 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:24:32 <elliott> ais523: not recommended as root
00:24:45 <ais523> elliott: yeah, I wasn't root
00:28:37 <Jafet> ln /var/games/crawl/logfile /etc/passwd
00:32:22 <ais523> can modern Linux systems function with a missing /etc/passwd, btw?
00:32:34 <ais523> in theory they should, just consistently using numbers not names, although logging in would be a problem
00:33:08 <function> oerjan: it must check that before permissions
00:33:17 <function> because it must travel down from the root
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00:33:52 <shachaf> oerjan: go to finland, hth
00:34:12 <olsner> shachaf: but... then he'd end up in finland
00:34:53 <oerjan> finland, finland, finland
00:35:16 <function> oerjan: think about /far/bar/directory/file
00:35:29 <function> on the filesystem which is mounted on /foo/bar
00:35:42 <function> it will continue down to directory/file to make it doesn't cross a mount point again
00:35:55 <function> but at that point the *filesystem* code knows its readonly
00:36:12 <function> so it never gets to the permission check
00:36:24 <function> unless extra logic was added to check permissions before returning FS state
00:37:39 <function> oerjan: sorry if that was obvious
00:38:12 <oerjan> it was, also your example was mispled hth
00:45:05 * oerjan hands elliott 2 points and a button with "Winer"
00:46:13 <olsner> where are my points? I demand my points.
00:46:40 <oerjan> sorry i had just the two i won from function
00:49:22 <elliott> does that make me a whiner or a winner?
00:56:21 <olsner> it will be easier to understand you if you spell correctly, hth
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01:01:41 -!- kmc has set topic: Wire mesh Supply与您共享了相册。| http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:03:57 <oerjan> olsner: hey why do you think i got the button so cheap...
01:05:10 <oerjan> what, you think i can just create buttons out of thin air?
01:05:35 <kmc> hm yeah, this wire mesh supply spam is sent through Picasa
01:05:46 <kmc> i wonder if that's some clever (and slightly ironic) trick for circumventing GMail's spam filter
01:05:52 -!- augur has joined.
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01:06:11 <oerjan> only ski wax and fish smell
01:06:42 <oerjan> and it's not a very good ski wax, either.
01:09:19 <oerjan> (it's a very fishy smell)
01:15:17 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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01:28:07 <shachaf> olsner: you'll never be as much of an oerjan as oerjan
01:36:39 <kmc> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323452204578288192043905634.html omg this article.....................
01:36:42 <kmc> is this for real
01:36:49 <kmc> elliott will like this
01:37:02 <kmc> sometimes I think that April Fools is actually year-round
01:40:07 <elliott> MISSION STATEMENT | At the center of the Kidder family's 'belief board' is a pledge 'to contribute our unique, God-given gifts' to improve 'the lives of others and the world.' It also lists a dozen core values, from faith to knowledge.
01:41:31 <kmc> 'David Kidder is a serial entrepreneur, an author and the father of three boys. "If I've learned anything by starting four companies," he told me, "it's that young companies typically fail because you have a charismatic leader with a bunch of beliefs, but those beliefs don't translate to the rest of their company."'
01:41:48 <kmc> startups fail because the founders fail to brainwash the employees enough
01:42:18 <kmc> couldn't be that their 'beliefs' are just fucking dumb
01:42:25 <elliott> kmc: I like how he isb asically saying "I am charismatic"
01:42:41 <oerjan> y'all know, maybe he's kidding. just saying.
01:42:55 <elliott> oerjan: perhaps you missed this paragraph: MISSION STATEMENT | At the center of the Kidder family's 'belief board' is a pledge 'to contribute our unique, God-given gifts' to improve 'the lives of others and the world.' It also lists a dozen core values, from faith to knowledge.
01:43:05 <shachaf> imo their system needs more SCRUM
01:43:10 <kmc> when i hear 'charismatic leader' i think, like, jim jones and mao and hitler
01:43:30 <elliott> They turned to a cutting-edge program called agile development that has rapidly spread from manufacturers in Japan to startups in Silicon Valley.
01:43:47 <elliott> agile, originated at manufacturers in Japan (???)
01:43:47 <oerjan> kmc: there's also lula and gandhi, hth
01:43:57 <Jafet> Charismatic Successor
01:45:50 <Bike> also wait are we willingly reading wsj now
01:46:08 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lula
01:46:17 <kmc> Bike: yeah i dunno, i got a link from twitter
01:46:23 <kmc> "people were already making fun of it when I saw it, I promise"
01:46:24 <Bike> yeah i figured you were linked
01:46:36 <kmc> Bike: we have a bunch of hardcopy wsj at my house from a former housemate with a subscription he hasn't turned off
01:46:40 <kmc> we're using it to grow mushrooms
01:46:57 <kmc> apparently Noam Chomsky said that you shouldn't buy the WSJ but you should steal it when possible
01:47:14 <Bike> that's a bit surprising, i've never seen any good articles from them
01:47:26 <Bike> I mean everybody remembers that salaries graphic right
01:48:36 <pikhq> Oh god that thing was great.
01:48:37 <kmc> Bike: well maybe you should steal it to deprive them of revenues
01:48:40 <kmc> ohhhhhh yes
01:48:41 <kmc> i saw that
01:48:47 <kmc> with all the sad looking people who make only $230,000 a year
01:49:38 <Bike> http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2013/01/16/wsj_fiscal_cliff_infographic/1358357370309.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg ah there it is
01:49:42 <pikhq> "I only make 10 times above average wage WHAAAA"
01:49:54 <Bike> pretty much the most ridiculous rich person whining i've seen outside of tsarist newspapers
01:50:21 <kmc> wsj is actually marxist black propaganda: discuss
01:50:25 <elliott> wasn't wsj meant to be fairly good journalism albeit centre-right before rupert "evil" murdoch took it over or something
01:50:43 <kmc> rupert murdoch is three skinny french communists inside a man-shaped robot
01:50:56 <elliott> ps by centre-right I mean the US notion, also known as far right elsewhere
01:51:28 <kmc> elliott: i think a lot of people read it for news about The Markets and I have no reason to think those are bad
01:51:33 <Bike> hey y'all heard about that whole thing in hungary right? by "that whole thing" I mean "everything they're doing, what the fuck,, what"
01:51:34 <elliott> kmc: continuing the wsj + families theme: How Machiavelli Saved My Family
01:51:39 <elliott> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323646604578400804035071688.html?mod=WSJ_hp_us_mostpop_read
01:51:41 <kmc> really I don't know why they run lifestyle articles or politics or whatever else
01:51:44 <kmc> except yes i do know
01:51:51 <kmc> because it gets them page views AND HERE WE ARE
01:51:53 <elliott> because #esoteric clicks on them
01:52:03 <Bike> #esoteric is the true bourgeoise
01:52:13 <elliott> it's ok by clicking that you tell their tracker thing that you got it from the "most popular" list
01:52:15 <Bike> thanks oonbotti, you're a real friend.
01:53:33 <elliott> so rupert murdoch has a tumblr now
01:53:44 <elliott> http://murdochhere.tumblr.com/
01:53:50 <Bike> I hope it's all Homestuck shipping.
01:53:52 <shachaf> does he contribute anonymously to Phantom_Hoover's
01:54:42 <Bike> I think this needs a rupertmurdochlookingatthings spinoff.
01:55:27 <ion> `run echo ' test'
01:55:36 <ion> Still broken in a newer WeeChat snapshot.
01:55:54 <ion> I anyone running a release version of WeeChat? Do you see “test” in the response line?
01:56:03 <ion> `run echo ' test'
01:56:34 <zzo38> Infocom games (with one exception) were written in ZIL, which is a variant of MDL, which is "a particularly unhelpful form of Lisp". Do you know about MDL?
01:56:51 <ion> That wasn’t visible here either.
01:56:56 <elliott> http://murdochhere.tumblr.com/image/45293956398
01:57:00 <elliott> i like the completely pointless map of the world
01:57:03 <zzo38> What isn't visible here either?
01:57:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Not really. Should I know about MDL?
01:57:18 <elliott> like do they actually forget where australia is in a meeting and go shit
01:57:24 <elliott> better check our gigantic map screen
01:57:25 <ion> zzo38: The contents of the message i sent.
01:57:44 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
01:58:00 <zzo38> ion: Your computer doesn't display the messages you enter?
01:58:03 <Bike> elliott: Looks like it's more about the oceans. Are they perhaps in a large spaceship slash boat in the iddle of the Indian Ocean, which they need to orient?
01:58:19 <ion> zzo38: WeeChat doesn’t display the ones that begin with U+200B followed by a space.
01:58:46 <zzo38> ion: Why doesn't it display those ones? It doesn't seem to make a lots of sense?
01:58:53 <ion> Because of a bug.
01:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> they're actually strategising for their deployment of dolphin-targeted news media
01:59:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:59:32 <ion> c00kiemon5ter: Which version are you running?
01:59:42 <ion> c00kiemon5ter: I can see that.
02:00:03 <Bike> and now it's time for secret ion chat hour
02:00:08 <elliott> i like how murdoch occasionally just tweets things like this https://twitter.com/rupertmurdoch/status/317827503723008000
02:00:23 <ion> bike: IRC logs still work. :-P
02:00:36 <Bike> elliott: haha what
02:00:37 <kmc> i follow bill gates on twitter
02:00:48 <kmc> it's 95% posts about fighting malaria and 5% cake recipes
02:00:50 <ion> bike: Apparently the format you used also triggers the bug.
02:00:51 <Bike> ion: NO NOW YOU HAVE MY CREDIT CARD NUMBER D:
02:01:00 <kmc> also he has his own url shortener, bgat.es
02:01:16 <Bike> What's .es again
02:01:25 <ion> Ok, there can be any amount of spaces in front of the U+200B, but there must be at least one space after it to trigger the bug.
02:01:26 <Bike> and why are like all cctlds used for url shorteners wtf
02:01:35 <ion> nonspacenonspace test
02:01:37 <kmc> reino de españa
02:01:39 <ion> That was visible.
02:01:50 <kmc> Bike: because a lot of words have two letters at the end hth
02:01:57 <Bike> maybe i could register se.cx
02:01:59 <shachaf> kmc: you should get your own url shortener
02:02:01 <elliott> you lied, it's b-gat.es, kmc
02:02:17 <kmc> elliott: you should receive your bitcoins in the mail in 6-8 weeks
02:02:28 <Bike> a url shortener for goat-related links, pics, and news
02:02:40 <shachaf> did i mention that someone extended shachaf.com..............
02:02:52 <shachaf> and they're still not using it for anything. and emails bounce
02:03:37 <Bike> Austria. Austria likes goats, right? Perfect.
02:03:43 <ion> Goat-related links and pics, right. I wouldn’t expect it to be worksafe.
02:04:05 <Bike> bike.com is about as dull as expected.
02:04:06 <ion> shachaf: nice
02:04:25 <kmc> http://goatkcd.com/1194/sfw nsfw
02:04:32 <kmc> a goat related link and picture
02:04:49 <Bike> See, that could be go.at/cX4b
02:04:52 <Bike> much more convenient
02:05:09 <elliott> Bike: that's good because it's also go + at
02:05:32 <Bike> Uh so? What's the point of that, you can't go at things.
02:05:48 <Bike> Don't be stupid. Be a Goat(TM)
02:06:17 <Bike> later i shut the site down in rage because goa trance people misuse it
02:06:55 -!- shachaf has set topic: Wire mesh Supply与您共享了相册。| roald.dahl.net | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:07:13 <kmc> roald DALnet
02:07:59 -!- shachaf has set topic: Wire mesh Supply与您共享了相册。| roäld.dahl.net | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:08:47 <Bike> xn--rold-moa.dahl.net, apparently.
02:09:36 <kmc> shachaf: you should get a domain where both the unicode name and the punycode spell out different related things
02:10:11 <shachaf> There is a distinct lack of English words that start with xn.
02:10:18 <ion> Ok, WeeChat 0.3.8 doesn’t have that bug.
02:10:46 <ion> xni, shachaf. xnachaf.
02:11:36 <shachaf> i'm a xni / a-xn--other-moa-xni
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02:12:13 <shachaf> kmc: Can you make Haskell good without cross-module optimization?
02:13:25 <shachaf> Maybe s/module/package/, indeed.
02:13:34 <quintopia> oh that new pbf is p good. thanks for the notify
02:14:41 <shachaf> who else wants to be on `pbflist
02:14:51 <shachaf> `run cat bin/pbflist | r13
02:14:52 <HackEgo> gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ Ftrb \ dhvagbcvn
02:16:19 <Bike> i like the idea that somebody lurks in here entirely for `list updates
02:16:23 <kmc> shachaf: does JIT count (yes it does)
02:21:09 <elliott> For a one time fee of 100 US dollars,
02:21:09 <elliott> Nicholas Gurewitch will personally call you
02:21:09 <elliott> from his home phone to notify you when he updates The Perry Bible Fellowship.
02:21:09 <elliott> Service good for twelve (12) updates. Service available to US phone numbers only.
02:21:29 <elliott> i think we should delete bin/pbflist in light of this service's existence
02:21:32 <Bike> looks like you've got competition shachaf
02:21:41 <elliott> it is not right to take away his profits like that
02:23:13 <elliott> shachaf: btw that pbf is two weeks old
02:23:54 <shachaf> kmc: ok can you make a haskell jit and make it good
02:27:08 <kmc> i think this is a sign that shachaf should jack up the price to be included on pbflist
02:27:35 <shachaf> `run cp bin/{emptylist,pbflistdeluxe}
02:28:17 <shachaf> You can sign up for a dozen deluxe updates for $99.
02:28:42 <Bike> What kind of service can we expect from the deluxe update service service?
02:30:08 <shachaf> Whenever I notice a new pbf update, I'll run `pbflistdeluxe, if I remember.
02:30:55 <Bike> OK but how is this superior to the `pbflist that the masses have to use.
02:31:48 <quintopia> also shachaf has not promised to run the one for the masses if he remembers
02:31:59 <Bike> I'll sign up for it. Do you take credit/
02:32:19 <shachaf> OK, that's not true. I don't take bitcoins.
02:32:44 <Bike> Could you not take $99 worth of my bitcoins?
02:33:09 <shachaf> You don't have any bitcoins, you scum!
02:33:18 <Bike> I don't know, quintopia, as I don't have any bitcoins.
02:33:26 <shachaf> quintopia: More like 0.0001 BTC.
02:33:29 <Bike> I don't see why this means shachaf can't not take any of mine though.
02:34:27 <shachaf> Bike: were the 1960s actually real
02:35:06 <Bike> IMO no, it was all a setup as part of Operation Condor.
02:35:17 <kmc> shachaf: the Universe was created on the morning of Sunday, August 17, 1969
02:35:20 <kmc> so mostly no
02:35:36 <pikhq> kmc: I think you mean January 1st 1970.
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02:35:44 <kmc> close but no
02:35:55 <pikhq> Then why's that the zero point?
02:35:57 <lambdabot> http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/woodstock-music-festival-concludes
02:35:57 <lambdabot> Title: Woodstock Music Festival concludes — History.com This Day in History — 8/17/ ...
02:36:17 <kmc> specifically the moment at which "White Rabbit" peaked
02:36:58 <shachaf> So you're saying that "White Rabbit" has been going downhill forever?
02:37:28 <shachaf> "White Rabbit" is a song from Jefferson Airplane's 1967 album Surrealistic Pillow.
02:37:28 <Bike> jefferson airplane, right?
02:37:35 <Bike> sweet i "know" "things"
02:42:07 <shachaf> That's what forever means.
02:42:30 <shachaf> For every x, for every y < x, WR(y) > WR(x)
02:42:45 <shachaf> also known as a "contravariant functor"??????????
02:43:06 <Bike> truly, the universe is just the Functor instance for Jefferson Airplane songs
02:43:30 <elliott> a bitcoin is like $150 now
02:43:52 <shachaf> elliott: whoa dude if you have this poset category of time then its opposite category is time running backwards
02:44:07 <Bike> So how do you explain entropy?
02:44:16 <kmc> elliott: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137.msg1195#msg1195
02:44:30 <shachaf> Bike: the man keeping us down
02:44:33 <kmc> $1,500,000 pizza
02:44:55 <copumpkin> man, I can't get away from the bitcoin talk
02:45:10 <kmc> SO HOW BOUT THEM BITCOINS EH
02:45:12 <shachaf> EVERYONE QUIET WITH THE BITCOIN TALK
02:45:26 <kmc> how bout them turing machines, never know when they're gonna stop
02:45:27 <shachaf> to talk to us about time running backwards
02:45:35 <Bike> sorry i'm distracted by the NewLibertyStandard username
02:45:35 <Gregor> -NickServ- contrapumpkin is not registered.
02:45:56 <elliott> kmc: i want you to know i'm laughing at your last statement
02:46:12 <shachaf> copumpkin is over bitcoins
02:46:16 <Bike> Oh man,there's someone named Heruspex. That's fucking bullshit.
02:46:32 <Bike> I am proposing naming the Bitcoin-bong (the second smallest domination) a “laszlo”
02:46:44 <tswett> shachaf: I think Japanese has を for marking a direct object.
02:46:52 <kmc> bitcoin bong
02:46:53 <shachaf> now that he's trading a brazillion dollars a day of real money
02:47:05 <shachaf> not to be confused with brazilian dollars, which don't even exist
02:47:14 <tswett> Sgeo: I've got reddit blackholed on my laptop.
02:47:21 <Bike> i like that he doesn't even have 200 posts there
02:47:58 <shachaf> This is an open offer by the way.. I will trade 10,000 BTC for 2 of these pizzas any time as long as I have the funds (I usually have plenty).
02:48:28 <tswett> Which pizzas are those?
02:48:40 <shachaf> copumpkin is shorting USD now.
02:49:38 <tswett> (That's a meaningful question I just asked, right?)
02:49:40 <shachaf> Ah, litecoin is bitcoin with scrypt?
02:51:34 <elliott> copumpkin should be longing USD instead.
02:51:48 <elliott> that way it would be worth more and the economy would be saved.
02:51:55 <elliott> because each USD would be longer when you measure it in gold.
02:52:04 <tswett> I think I want to buy stock in myself. I think I'm a pretty good investment.
02:52:10 <tswett> I'm not sure I could afford myself, though.
02:52:18 <tswett> Let's see, how much am I worth, again?
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02:53:04 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:53:10 <Bike> Everything is connected, shachaf *jumps off a building*
02:53:16 <tswett> I think $5,000,000 might be a good estimate of how much I'm worth.
02:53:16 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
02:53:33 <tswett> I could barely afford to buy one ten thousandth of myself. }:(
02:53:44 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
02:54:29 <Bike> tswett: Maybe you could rent out some of your equity.
02:54:38 <shachaf> this script could be significantly simplified if the default user was switched to monqy
02:55:00 <tswett> I guess I pretty much own 100% of myself already.
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02:55:51 <tswett> Would it be a good idea for me to sell 1% of myself for $50,000? I dunno, that might be too low a price.
02:56:15 <tswett> I mean, sheesh, only $5,000,000? I like to think I'm worth more than that.
02:56:17 <ais523> tswett: you'd be insane to do so, /and/ other people would be insane to accept
02:56:26 <shachaf> Ask yourself this: How much is your ¢2 worth?
02:56:33 <tswett> I think it's worth about two cents.
02:56:44 <tswett> ais523: hm. This is a difficult concept to understand.
02:56:46 <shachaf> I mean as a percentage of you.
02:56:57 <tswett> Uh... approximately 0%.
02:58:03 <tswett> Here, here's a better idea.
02:58:12 <tswett> Invest in my for-profit corporation instead.
02:58:51 <kmc> you can't sell shares of yourself (in the US anyway) because of 13th amendment or something
02:59:11 <tswett> I could, like, sign a contract to give a certain percentage of all my earned income or something.
02:59:16 <Bike> This should tie into corporate personhood in a hilarious way
02:59:43 <elliott> probably not anyone else here
02:59:43 <kmc> aww thanks elliott
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02:59:56 <Bike> Shares in bikes are always going up.
03:00:00 <tswett> But the opposite kind of aww to kmc's aww.
03:00:11 <elliott> well i am not even sure 80% of you actually exist
03:00:21 <Bike> I'm pretty sure bikes exist.
03:00:28 <tswett> I can prove that I exist!
03:00:35 <tswett> Theorem. There exists x such that x = tswett.
03:00:35 <elliott> yeah but you haven't even written a haskell program
03:00:41 <tswett> Proof. Let x = tswett.
03:00:53 <tswett> module Main where main = return ()
03:00:54 <Bike> Uh dude how do you expect me to write Haskell programs? I don't even have fingers.
03:01:13 <monqy> um pretty sure bikes have fingers
03:01:33 <Bike> Do not *surreptitiously moves arm behind spokes*
03:01:37 <shachaf> kmc: uhh what if i'm not human
03:01:59 <tswett> Non-humans don't exist.
03:02:10 <shachaf> elliott: what do you mean you wouldn't buy shares in me
03:02:13 <tswett> Wait, no, there's one thing that isn't human. Uh, lemme think.
03:02:18 <elliott> Bike: also you're, like, a biologist
03:02:27 <Bike> Is that a problem.
03:02:29 <elliott> what I'm saying is that there is pretty much no competition between you and kmc for my investment
03:02:32 <shachaf> biologist more like vile-ologist
03:02:32 <elliott> yes of course it's a problem
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03:02:41 <tswett> Gee, I'm trying to remember here...
03:02:52 <elliott> like I wouldn't buy shares in a speech recognition researcher, either!
03:02:52 <tswett> Ah, right. I'm pretty sure it's R^4.
03:02:54 <Bike> Look, I'm not saying I'm as good an investment as kmc. Just that you should consider broadening your portfolio.
03:02:58 <tswett> R^4 isn't human. Everything else is human.
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03:03:20 <shachaf> but you're not a bike. you're Bike
03:03:47 <elliott> i could buy like 2 kmcs for the cost of one bike
03:03:55 <shachaf> lern2capitalize(your sentences, not on your opportunities)
03:04:07 <tswett> Capitalize me by giving me money!
03:04:14 <Bike> I thought you wanted me to have a seven letter uncapitalized name, shachaf. Why the flip flopping?
03:04:29 <tswett> $10 a share, eh? Eh? Eh?
03:04:30 <shachaf> Bike: See, you don't even know where to begin.
03:04:39 <shachaf> Bike: You're so unrefined.
03:04:50 <shachaf> Bike: Part of the skill of knowing when to capitalize is knowing when *not* to capitalize.
03:04:52 <Bike> That just means I have potential. As an investment. Of your money.
03:05:03 <shachaf> OTHERWISE YOU COULD JUST SHOUT EVERYTHING. YOU'D BECOME THE ANTI-MONQY
03:05:36 <kmc> i'm watching The Walking Dead and i don't get why nobody yet has said "Holy shit, this is just like a zombie movie!"
03:05:50 <shachaf> Do they usually do that in zombie movies?
03:05:59 <kmc> does this take place in an alternate universe where zombie movies never existed
03:06:01 <kmc> i don't know shachaf
03:06:12 <kmc> not really 'into' zombies
03:06:16 <shachaf> Well, if they don't usually do it in zombie movies, then that would explain it.
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03:06:25 <kmc> not really
03:06:28 <shachaf> it would no longer be ""just like a zombie movie"" anymore if you take my meaning
03:06:36 <kmc> ow my brain
03:06:57 <Bike> intertextuality sucks, kc
03:07:18 <elliott> is "if you take my meaning" a hebrew idiom
03:07:49 <shachaf> @google if you take my meaning
03:07:51 <lambdabot> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/if-you-take-my-meaning
03:07:51 <lambdabot> Title: if you take my meaning - definition in British English Dictionary & Thesaurus - ...
03:08:03 <elliott> i think you mean "if you get my meaning"
03:08:19 <monqy> i think you mean "if you know what i'm saying"
03:08:50 <Bike> If you know what I mean AND YOU DON'T FUCK YOU
03:09:16 <shachaf> elliott: Apparently it's UK slang.
03:09:30 <shachaf> You're just too Americanised to understand it.
03:09:44 <shachaf> Er, not slang. An idiom. A UK idiom.
03:09:59 <ion> nah’m’sayin’
03:10:19 <shachaf> elliott: it's true i'm 1000% british
03:13:20 <monqy> can i be british too
03:13:51 <oerjan> know what i mean, wink wink, nudge nudge
03:14:08 <shachaf> only if you stop reading super mega comics ...... forever
03:14:11 <kmc> said the actress to the bishop
03:15:23 <pikhq> Say no more, say no more.
03:16:52 <shachaf> uh Bike everyone was making telemarketer euphemisms
03:17:43 <monqy> what if theyre telemarketing.....the nasty....
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04:09:39 <zzo38> Someone made up "Affirmative Spelling" which means the capitalization is reversed. But, it is also what will happen if you try to display a ASCII file on a Commodore 64 computer or vice versa.
04:10:29 <pikhq> Shame not all of PETSCII is in Unicode.
04:10:38 <Bike> Displaying a Commodore 64 computer on an ASCII file is madness.
04:10:57 <kmc> oh, which characters aren't?
04:11:04 <kmc> i was just wondering about characters that aren't in unicode
04:11:27 <pikhq> Looks like 'bout half of the graphic chars.
04:11:52 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C64_Petscii_Charts.png hmmmmm
04:13:00 <zzo38> pikhq: I know; Unicode has various problems. My own character set (for a computer I am designing) does include all of PETSCII in its 16-bit set (and without all of the nonsense of Unicode; character properties are not used, control characters are all in one block, etc) (it normally uses 8-bit sets, although there is a mapping between them)
04:13:54 <zzo38> Bike: I mean displaying a file of Commodore 64 in a computer which is using ASCII, not displaying a computer on a file!
04:17:25 <zzo38> Can there be the voltage/phase colorspace which convert to/from YUV and YIQ, and then you can convert to other colorspace?
04:17:59 <zzo38> It seem, it might be three components (low voltage, high voltage, phase) and then if the low and high is the same it will be gray, or, something like that?
04:22:02 -!- function has changed nick to variable.
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04:29:08 <zzo38> Maybe you would do something like calculate the sine and cosine of the phase to make the U and V signal, and the voltage makes the Y signal.
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05:01:39 <zzo38> Have any of you make any Z-machine interpreters?
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05:10:25 <Bike> Hm, this is boring.
05:26:33 <Bike> Yes, "this" was referring to myself, of which I am an occupant.
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06:27:26 <zzo38> Probably it is possible to make a program to compile a subset of Internet Quiz Engine into Z-machine version 1 (the only lacking feature is the timer). Many of the features of Z-machine would not be needed, though.
06:34:13 <zzo38> Stop losing all the time, please.
06:37:27 <Jafet> It's actually quite odd that, on a hierarchical file system, /usr/bin is a big flat directory.
06:37:36 <Jafet> Why isn't it hierarchical?
06:37:58 <zzo38> Perhaps so that all of the files fit in the PATH?
06:38:16 <Jafet> This question usually appears whenever I boot up a different linux system and wonder what programs are available.
06:39:44 <Jafet> Sometimes listing /etc gives you an idea of a system faster than listing /usr/bin.
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06:46:46 <zzo38> OK, then do that, instead.
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07:34:12 <Taneb> I am now playing dwarf fortress via mosh
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07:58:16 <Taneb> Description of coke in Dwarf Fortress:
07:58:49 <Jafet> Are you sure that was the entire description
07:59:42 <shachaf> Wait, was the description talking about itself, or about the coke?
07:59:59 <shachaf> Or was it talking about the game? Or your screen?
08:00:10 <Taneb> But what would you use coke for?
08:00:14 <Taneb> Would you drink it? Smoke it?
08:00:21 <Taneb> Snort it? Use it as fuel?
08:12:33 <Jafet> /* Writing: cosine = (double (*)(double)) dlsym(handle, "cos"); would seem more natural, but the C99 standard leaves casting from "void *" to a function pointer undefined.
08:12:33 <Jafet> The assignment used below is the POSIX.1-2003 (Technical Corrigendum 1) workaround; see the Rationale for the POSIX specification of dlsym(). */
08:12:52 <Jafet> *(void **) (&cosine) = dlsym(handle, "cos");
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08:50:48 <fizzie> They could've just added the void (*dlfun(void *, const char *))(void) back when definating POSIX, and then you could do the more natural thing. (I guess that would have made less things POSIX by default.)
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08:54:36 <Jafet> Natural? But this is POSIX.
08:55:18 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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08:56:11 <shachaf> Taneb: plz arrange for olist update by the end of next week thx
08:58:33 <Taneb> Alas, that is not within the scope of my power
09:02:17 <Jafet> [http://stackoverflow.com/a/10519415]
09:02:32 <Jafet> void (*fptr)(); void *temp = dlsym(handle, "my_function"); memcpy(&fptr, &temp, sizeof fptr);
09:03:30 <Jafet> I like how people are writing code that depends on POSIX to be portable to systems which aren't POSIX.
09:07:49 <Taneb> Is it possible to use mosh for file transfer
09:08:44 <shachaf> Taneb: base64 + copy-and-paste hth
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09:45:56 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Cont'
09:45:56 <lambdabot> `Const' (imported from Control.Applicative),
09:46:03 <elliott> @let all' = cont . flip all
09:46:27 <elliott> :t do { x <- all' [1..10]; return (x > 5) }
09:46:31 <elliott> :t evalCont $ do { x <- all' [1..10]; return (x > 5) }
09:46:40 <elliott> @let evalCont = flip runCont id
09:46:43 <elliott> :t evalCont $ do { x <- all' [1..10]; return (x > 5) }
09:46:48 <elliott> > evalCont $ do { x <- all' [1..10]; return (x > 5) }
09:47:02 <elliott> :t runCont (do { x <- all' [1..10]; return (show x) }) ?x
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09:48:23 <elliott> :t evalCont $ do { x <- all' [1..10]; y <- all' [11..20]; return (x > y) }
09:48:32 <elliott> > evalCont $ do { x <- all' [1..10]; y <- all' [11..20]; return (x < y) }
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10:37:33 <nooga> {Y: {(rf): {(f):f(f)}( {(f): rf({(x): f(f)(x)})} )}}
10:55:25 <olsner> "Assuming sizeof(unsigned long long) is 64 ..." sounds like a safe assumption
10:58:57 <Jafet> You sound like one of those whiners who don't have 512-bit computers.
11:01:34 <olsner> only a matter of time until my puny 64-bit hardware is completely useless :(
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11:32:36 <Jafet> You'll still need it to run the legacy 32-bit apps.
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11:59:17 <FreeFull> Jafet: 64 bit hardware can still run 16-bit stuff
11:59:25 <FreeFull> Are you suggesting 512 bit won't?
12:03:28 <FreeFull> Since machines will be so fast, what stops us from using emulators?
12:07:01 <Jafet> Machines may not get faster
12:11:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool)
12:11:46 <olsner> with 8 or 16 times larger words, they might be a lot slower even
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14:50:58 <kmc> @tell Taneb no, Mosh doesn't do file transfers yet
14:52:16 <Sgeo> I wish I knew what avocado tastes like
14:52:34 <Sgeo> I've tried eating bacon. It's boring.
14:53:34 <elliott> i can think of an excellent way to find out how avocado tastes
14:53:42 <elliott> ps american bacon doesn't count as bacon
14:58:50 <monqy> canadian bacon, however…
15:00:58 <elliott> i don't know anything about canadian bacon
15:01:08 <elliott> but canada is almost america so its chances aren't good
15:01:09 <olsner> if there's a difference at least one of you is wrong
15:02:34 <monqy> canadian bacon is the american name for british bacon
15:03:23 <Phantom_Hoover> "Back bacon (called Irish bacon/Rashers or Canadian bacon in the United States[citation needed])"
15:03:45 <elliott> monqy: well canadian bacon is awful then
15:03:49 <elliott> because it is taking credit!!!!
15:05:44 <olsner> elliott: canadian bacon is not made of canadians?
15:08:03 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon_mania
15:08:24 <elliott> A 2009 Baltimore Sun story describes bacon as being "more than bacon,"
15:08:39 <elliott> Calling it "like an extreme sport,"
15:09:42 <monqy> an article starting with the words "All Hail Bacon!" noted that a Poynter Institute report found bacon taking the social media networks "by storm" and that the meat's popularity is "now practically at an epidemic pace, as all of these socially interactive sites are literally pulsating with posts, updates, comments, even clubs / groups dedicated exclusively to the LOVE of Bacon!"
15:10:13 <monqy> bacon mania is the worst thing
15:10:59 <olsner> bacon itself is still good though
15:11:26 <Sgeo> "Negative publicity surrounding swine flu, which is not transmitted via pork product consumption,[45] hit sales and prices in the pork industry."
15:11:49 <Sgeo> It does occur to me though that by consuming bacon, it encourages people to keep pigs around, which is relevant to swine flu
15:11:58 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bacon.jpg
15:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Bacon.JPG nice bacon
15:12:32 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: that's like ham or something
15:12:32 * Sgeo has never seen bacon that looks like that
15:12:40 <Sgeo> It looks like strips with stripes
15:13:21 <elliott> guys I think we need to observe this sentence some more: A 2009 Baltimore Sun story describes bacon as being "more than bacon",
15:13:33 <Sgeo> And not as long as http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Bacon_and_egg_sandwich_-_open_face.JPG
15:13:42 <monqy> bacon mania can die in a hole & rot
15:13:48 <elliott> Sgeo: by "american bacon doesn't count" do you think i was just making up the idea of there being other types of bacon than what, or
15:13:54 <elliott> *what is common in america
15:14:14 <Gregor> Dat bacon and egg sandwich… enjoy your extremely-dry bread.
15:14:29 <Sgeo> I should start eating eggs
15:14:29 <Gregor> Egg sandwiches call for /buttered/ bread.
15:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, what would your opinion be of bacon mania for normal bacon
15:14:38 <Sgeo> I wonder if the cafeteria offers hard-boiled eggs
15:14:46 <Gregor> Or if you're British and like eating rat snot, Marmite on bread.
15:15:02 <elliott> isn't marmite more of an australian thing
15:15:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i have never eaten marmite, i am fairly content with this
15:15:12 <Sgeo> I've tried eating buttered bagels, but I have difficulty spreading the butter
15:15:17 <Sgeo> It just sits on a lump
15:15:21 <Gregor> elliott: Vegemite is Australian, Marmite is British.
15:15:25 <elliott> i feel like i should attempt to be ambivalent about marmite
15:15:33 <elliott> because the whole love it or hate it marketing campaign thing is obnoxious
15:15:34 <Gregor> They're the same thing, but "Marmite" under that name doesn't exist in Australia.
15:15:44 <monqy> Phantom_Hoover: food obsession to a degree like that of bacon mania is hell irrespective of what what food it's about
15:15:51 <elliott> i can't imagine it's terribly offensive
15:15:52 <Sgeo> I need to stop eating tic-tacs as though they were candy
15:15:57 <Gregor> elliott: It really is.
15:16:03 <elliott> well it's basically just salt right
15:16:16 <Sgeo> Gregor, you hate pizza, your opinions don't count.
15:16:20 <elliott> sticky salt on toast doesn't sound so bad
15:16:29 <Gregor> elliott: It's less like salt than like earwax.
15:16:44 <elliott> well earwax doesn't taste that awful
15:16:54 <olsner> instead of buttering the egg sandwich bread, just fry it in the leftover bacon fat
15:16:57 <elliott> but it's probably not that earwaxy
15:17:27 <monqy> in which elliott is part of the problem
15:17:28 <Gregor> <olsner> instead of buttering the egg sandwich bread, just fry it in the leftover bacon fat // now that's a plan
15:17:50 <Sgeo> 2 calories per mint is kind of low... also, lots of sorbitol
15:17:56 <elliott> monqy: i categorically cant participate in `bacon mania' because i dont consume the type of bacon it concerns
15:18:03 <Sgeo> Wait these don't have sorbitol
15:18:09 <elliott> i mean bacon isn't anything that special of course
15:18:17 <elliott> but everyone is talking about it
15:18:19 <kmc> bacon is pretty good; chinese pork belly dishes are also really good
15:18:32 <Sgeo> Can I get bacon on hamburgers?
15:18:44 <Sgeo> Maybe avocado separate for the first time I try oit
15:18:53 <Sgeo> (Not on the hamburger)
15:18:59 <kmc> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm twice cooked pork with leeks
15:19:02 <monqy> and avacado products
15:19:04 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, like every other food that people consider awesome!
15:19:14 <Sgeo> Steak, hamburger, bacon...
15:19:27 <monqy> steak is vastly overhyped
15:19:29 <Sgeo> But I can smell aromas just fine!
15:19:33 <monqy> its like bacon mania but less obnoxious
15:19:41 <Sgeo> Steak smells awesome... it just doesn't taste like anything
15:19:51 <kmc> monqy has never had my sous vide steak
15:20:22 <kmc> avocado is basically a tree that grows butter
15:20:33 <Sgeo> Although that was my opinion when I was younger
15:20:34 <monqy> that's a pretty good description
15:20:37 <kmc> guacamole is delicious but the flavor comes from the other parts
15:21:00 <Sgeo> Some people elsewhere have suggested that it's because I've only ever eaten well-done steaks
15:21:07 <kmc> yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh gross
15:21:09 <monqy> why would you do that
15:21:14 <monqy> you gotta have your stake juicy
15:21:16 <kmc> you are asking for ruined food
15:21:21 <Phantom_Hoover> at this juncture i am just going to link to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNJdJIwCF_Y because it is amazing
15:21:31 <kmc> literally "chef could you plz ruin my food before you give it to me"
15:21:37 <Sgeo> The chef was my mom
15:21:53 <kmc> get a medium rare steak and season it with garlic and salt and maybe steak sauce
15:22:02 <Sgeo> But is medium rare unsafe?
15:22:08 <Sgeo> Also I love garlic salt
15:22:11 <Gregor> <kmc> literally "chef could you plz ruin my food before you give it to me" // 'struth
15:22:14 <kmc> unless you are like an elderly baby with aids
15:22:42 <kmc> prob. fine even then
15:23:13 <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderful thing, you gotta take advantage
15:23:24 <kmc> sometimes i eat food off the ground just to keep mine on its toes
15:23:40 <Sgeo> Medium wouldn't be bad, right?
15:23:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i think there is some risk of parasites? but nothing worth worrying about
15:23:52 <kmc> medium will probably taste all right too
15:24:09 <kmc> it also depends on the quality of the original meat; you can get sushi grade beef that is safe to eat raw
15:24:20 <kmc> supposedly it's really really good
15:24:23 <Sgeo> ..wtf how does that work
15:24:32 <kmc> sear it quickly in a pan on high heat to get the outside crunchy
15:24:43 <kmc> Sgeo: i don't know, maybe they are extra careful about the cow's health
15:26:10 <kmc> also extra careful about not cross contaminating with other meats
15:26:35 <Phantom_Hoover> note to self: don't read alarmist blog posts about toxoplasmosis
15:27:19 <Sgeo> Is there a way to determine if I have toxoplasmosis?
15:27:39 <olsner> hmm, looks like sendmail can also do string rewriting in loops
15:27:43 <elliott> why would you expect to have toxoplasmosis exactly
15:27:51 <kmc> do you feel a powerful urge to be eaten by a cat
15:28:08 <kmc> olsner: http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/sendmail-as-turing-machine.txt
15:28:20 <Sgeo> Have been living with a cats my whole life. At once point had to take care of someone else's cats which were all strays until she took them in
15:28:27 <elliott> hm i wonder what being eaten by a cat would be like
15:28:51 <Sgeo> This apartment has become a shithole with the cat getting litter everywhere
15:29:09 <kmc> Sgeo don't become a crazy cat lady
15:29:16 <olsner> I think that's a sign of not maintaining your cats properly
15:29:31 <Sgeo> I'm not a crazy cat lady. I want the cat out of here.
15:30:01 <Sgeo> And my dad to pay to get the apartment professionally cleaned.
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15:45:54 <elliott> update: i have obtained bacon and am now looking at ridiculous "bacon mania" things to feel smug about it
15:46:04 <elliott> bacon cotton candy. bacon vodka
15:46:20 <elliott> (*candy floss in real countries)
15:46:25 <elliott> (but probably it's fake candy floss too?)
15:46:31 <kmc> bacon is like The Beatles in that they're both pretty good but I'm almost obliged to hate them because of how overrated they are
15:46:38 <kmc> however I don't hate bacon at all
15:47:30 <elliott> i just feel kinda sorry for americans who have to grow up knowing the word "bacon" as meaning something totally inferior to what i know as bacon
15:48:47 <kmc> what do you know as bacon
15:49:07 <elliott> i hear americans call it canadian bacon
15:49:36 <kmc> both good imo
15:49:53 <kmc> thin & crispy is also a fine way for food to be
15:50:12 <copumpkin> do people use the word "rashers" in the US?
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15:55:20 <kmc> i've not heard it, what does it mean?
15:57:33 <elliott> its when your skin gets all red and rough
16:01:04 <kmc> 'canadian bacon' is pretty popular in america though
16:01:13 <kmc> especially as a pizza toping
16:02:36 <monqy> and a breakfast food with eggs
16:03:12 <Gregor> And another way to make fun of Canada.
16:03:52 <kmc> 'ha ha, you have delicious meats'
16:04:12 <kmc> brb going to eat sichuan food
16:05:50 <elliott> i don't know what i mean by that
16:05:52 <elliott> its' something quite specific
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16:09:38 <monqy> i like egg it's good
16:12:07 <nooga> i just casually emailed Ian Piumarta
16:12:51 <Taneb> Now you feel like I feel all the time
16:12:51 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:13:01 <Taneb> Someone sent me a message
16:13:08 <Taneb> I wonder what wonders it contains
16:13:11 <Taneb> It could be magical
16:13:14 <lambdabot> kmc said 1h 22m 16s ago: no, Mosh doesn't do file transfers yet
16:13:40 <elliott> it doesn't know what it wants to do
16:13:47 <nooga> whew, I just had this weird idea that Taneb is Ian and he somehow recieves mail by lambdabot
16:14:05 <Vorpal> egg? That tastes like chicken.
16:14:40 <Taneb> It tastes of chicken in potentia
16:14:54 <Vorpal> yes, that was the joke
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17:13:52 <Sgeo> I think it's probably a bad thing to consume a thing of tic-tacs in two days
17:14:37 <FreeFull> Depends on how big of a thing it is
17:14:48 <Sgeo> The cashier might look at me funny if I buy tic-tacs again so soon
17:16:20 <Phantom_Hoover> because i can definitely see you getting funny looks for the latter
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17:17:34 <Sgeo> 60 tic-tacs. One box
17:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo do you really think anyone is going to waste the effort to judge you for eating two boxes of fucking tictacs
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17:19:53 <kmc> paranoid thinking...
17:20:46 <Taneb> Sgeo, maybe the cashier will think you are a generous person with a lot of friends
17:21:17 <Sgeo> How are tic-tacs supposed to be consumed?
17:21:27 <Sgeo> Just one or two on occasion?
17:22:19 <monqy> you should switch cashiers so they don't recognize you
17:22:25 <monqy> get a friend to buy them for you
17:22:31 <Taneb> Sgeo, however you want. They're mints.
17:22:36 <Bike> meant to be consumed in the dark ritual of Oolak-Oolak
17:22:47 <elliott> monqy: you forgot crossing the border to buy them
17:22:50 <monqy> anything to prevent them from knowing you ate all those tic tacs
17:22:59 <Sgeo> Blah, I should be eating higher calorie things anyway
17:23:22 <elliott> we have the finest tic-tac brewery in all of england
17:23:34 <Sgeo> I should find out what snacks are there. I'd be comfortable with sugary high-calorie snacks everyday
17:23:39 <Sgeo> These are not high calorie
17:23:44 <elliott> tic-tac production started here in 1764 and have been hand-made since
17:23:54 <elliott> hence why hexham is often referred to as home of the tic-tacs
17:24:49 <Phantom_Hoover> so it's exactly where they'd expect Sgeo to buy tic-tacs
17:25:35 <Sgeo> Also, tic-tacs in the container make a lot of sound
17:25:52 <Sgeo> Walking through a quiet cubical farm while tic-tacs are rattling loudly is kind of embarrassing
17:26:00 <pikhq> Is it true that there is a statue of six pigs in the Hexham town square?
17:27:36 <elliott> inscribed beneath is "tic taccus" (latin for "be nice")
17:28:37 <monqy> Sgeo: you could put them in a larger box or bottle stuffed with cotton and packing peanuts
17:28:44 <monqy> Sgeo: and then put that in a paper bag
17:28:57 <elliott> why not just kill the cashier
17:28:59 <monqy> take a swig of tic tacs and nobody will know your shame
17:29:15 <monqy> they'll think it's like
17:29:21 <monqy> idk what do people usually drink from paper bags
17:30:11 <elliott> i hear canada gets their milk in bags
17:30:29 <pikhq> "Argent, hex ham rampant carnation."
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17:33:17 <pikhq> (the coat of arms for Hexham)
17:34:02 <kmc> i thought they got their milk in tetrahedra
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17:36:09 <Taneb> "The video ends with the man being shown with black eyes: he has also been infected."
17:36:45 <kmc> can't you buy tic-tacs online by the case
17:37:56 <kmc> Cut Out The Middleman as they say
17:38:28 <monqy> but what if the website judges him
17:38:44 <monqy> a popup, I can see it now, "dude, why are you buying all those tic tacs"
17:38:47 <kmc> better burn down your house and change your name and grow a beard and move to a shack in the woods in montana just in case
17:38:47 <monqy> "you have a problem?"
17:39:03 <kmc> btw never buy the blue 'powermint' tic tacs, they are mad nasty
17:39:18 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, send orders for tictacs to universities across trhe country?
17:39:56 <monqy> im not very keen on tic tacs, or drug lingo at all for that matter
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17:42:35 <monqy> http://www.zazzle.com/tictacs+gifts shame by association with whoever made/buys/enjoys these things
17:43:33 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yes
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18:28:22 <Bike> why does anything vary so much
18:28:33 <elliott> why do tic-tacs vary so much
18:28:58 <olsner> Why do wire mesh Supply与您共享了相册 so much?
18:29:03 <pikhq> doesthiswork: So that all boobs are unique.
18:29:14 <kmc> government plot to track us using our boobs
18:29:32 <doesthiswork> yes, but mens areolas are pretty consistently the same size
18:30:13 <doesthiswork> so if was just relaxed selection i would expect both sexes to vary
18:30:38 <Taneb> doesthiswork, in my experience men's areolas do vary a bit.
18:30:44 <Taneb> Mine, for example, are relatively small
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18:31:28 <doesthiswork> they vary from size of a penny to the size of a dollar coin
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18:32:00 <doesthiswork> while women's go from penny size to a little smaller than a cd
18:32:20 <pikhq> There's more tissue there for the areola to spread over.
18:32:54 <doesthiswork> that is true, bigger boobs tent to have bigger areolas
18:33:09 <Taneb> Author a study on it
18:33:18 <Taneb> Perhaps you'll get an Ig Nobel prize
18:33:59 <Bike> imo menopause is weirder than boobs could ever be
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18:42:08 <Taneb> doesthiswork is going for the ig nobel
18:43:53 <fizzie> The nobel prize in breasts.
18:44:39 <pikhq> The breast nobel prize.
18:44:49 <pikhq> Also, it's Ig Noble.
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18:48:28 <Taneb> My favourite is Foldable
18:53:44 <Bike> Num, am I right!!
18:55:15 <doesthiswork> if you prefer there is a skin for it called liskell
18:55:22 <Bike> i think it's like hebrew
18:55:30 <doesthiswork> that give you everything in s-expressions instead
18:55:32 <Bike> i looked it up before but then i forgot.
18:56:53 <Sgeo> http://wormtube.worms2d.info/extras/Cueshark%20-%20Wormsong%20in%20Minor.mp3
18:58:12 <doesthiswork> here's a cool video about bipedal robots http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRbvNL1PHKg
18:59:52 <Bike> Is this gonna be PETMAN
19:00:35 <Bike> i admit I don't understand how it could be cost effective to make a fucking android just to see if your NBC suits work.
19:01:06 <Bike> Quite possibly!
19:01:26 <Bike> Oh man the music even matches the gait.
19:01:48 <olsner> looks like there are cuts in the video too
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19:02:17 <Bike> well yeah, it was like a thirty second demonstration.
19:02:50 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFrjrgBV8K0 They have that newer video where it has a head instead of a strobe.
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19:08:27 <Vorpal> Bike, interesting, but can it turn and so on? That is a very fixed one direction walk (only watched the first video so far)
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19:09:10 <Bike> Their site has http://www.bostondynamics.com/img/petman512.jpg
19:09:33 <Bike> also http://www.bostondynamics.com/img/petman-poses-512.jpg jazzin it up
19:09:53 <Bike> yes as it turns out i don't work at boston dynamics and can't get you more information than they've released
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19:11:17 <Bike> Stairs would probably be a common use case for testing rips and stuff, though.
19:16:11 <olsner> seems useful to test if e.g. bending the fabric the wrong way when walking will break it down and let in the death viruses
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19:28:41 <Sgeo> I AM TIRED OF THIS APARTMENT SMELLING LIKE SHIT
19:31:48 * kmc makes a note to stop shitting in Sgeo's apartment
19:32:12 <boily> random Sunday question: has anyone of you all every played with ISO 7816 part 4?
19:33:01 <olsner> is that like smart cards? or somehow different?
19:38:06 <Taneb> I think Hussie started out mad with power.
19:38:12 <Taneb> Did you ever read Problem Sleuth?
19:45:43 <boily> part 3 has the low-level, electric stuff. part 4 has commands and things and stuff: http://cardwerk.com/smartcards/smartcard_standard_ISO7816-4.aspx
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21:10:13 <oerjan> i guess someone ran @undefine
21:10:45 <Taneb> Is that ?x a GHC extension?
21:10:57 <oerjan> elliott: that's neat, if you define min' = Cont . flip min and max' = Cont . flip max then i think you can do minimax algorithms that way
21:11:15 <oerjan> Taneb: implicit parameters
21:11:28 <zzo38> What should I upgrade, the stadium, concession, or merchandise?
21:11:31 <Sgeo> I wanted to make this bot
21:11:31 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/user/LinkFixerBot
21:11:55 <oerjan> @tell elliott that's neat, if you define min' = Cont . flip min and max' = Cont . flip max then i think you can do minimax algorithms that way
21:12:39 <oerjan> @tell elliott um, *+imum in places
21:13:51 <oerjan> Taneb: i think getting types without explicit lambdas may be their main use nowadays :P
21:14:21 <zzo38> The thing is that concession and stadium is only good for games at your stadium, and not for your opponent's stadium, while merchandise is good at either; however, merchandise is way more expensive to upgrade to level 9 (I have level 8) than concession to level 8 (which I currently have 7), and stadium is the most expensive.
21:14:36 <Taneb> To my mind, they are not very Haskelly
21:14:40 <Taneb> zzo38, as I said, concession
21:14:43 <oerjan> although some people use them for configuration i think, but there are gotchas than make them mostly deprecated
21:14:55 <shachaf> oerjan: btw ill be taking credit for those things
21:15:01 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, I saw that and will consider it; but I also want to describe all the possibilities anyways.
21:15:08 <shachaf> 02:42 <shachaf> all :: [a] -> Cont Bool a
21:15:09 <oerjan> shachaf: which things? the Cont stuff?
21:15:34 <oerjan> shachaf: did you consider using minimum and maximum too?
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21:15:59 <shachaf> Well, I mentioned that it's just a foldMap.
21:16:18 <zzo38> Stadium also, helps if there are many more people to come (and perhaps there is more property tax, too), but more people who come also means more concession will be sold since the higher level of concession means more choices (I have candy, cola, popcorn, weiner, burger, pretzel, and juice; next choice is pizza, and the next upgrades will be nachos and beer).
21:17:01 <zzo38> I will try concession for now since that is what I can afford, and hopefully sell enough pizza to make up for it.
21:17:20 <kmc> what game?
21:17:26 <kmc> or does zzo38 just actually own a stadium
21:17:29 <shachaf> concatMap :: [a] -> Cont [b] a
21:17:47 <zzo38> kmc: Franchise Basketball, on X-BIT BBS
21:18:49 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I wish I knew what avocado tastes like <-- well have you had guacamole?
21:18:58 <zzo38> The installation on X-BIT has 16 teams in total, and currently, 15 are computer players (someone could register and take over, but the games I like are usually less popular than the others, it seems)
21:19:13 <zzo38> The other game I play on X-BIT is Word Warp
21:19:52 <kmc> i claimed earlier that most of the taste of guacamole is not the avocado but the salt, tomato, onion, &c
21:20:00 <zzo38> Oops, the next game is at the opponent's stadium, so maybe I should have waited to upgrade the concession, and earned bank interest instead.
21:20:07 <kmc> avocado itself is kind of like butter
21:20:08 <oerjan> shachaf: i guess this may be part of that "you can emulate all other monads in delimited continuations" stuff?
21:20:57 <shachaf> Given that all I'm saying here is that (>>=) :: m a -> Cont (m b) (m a)
21:21:07 <shachaf> really it should be Codensity!!
21:21:22 <oerjan> oh right concatMap _is_ flip (>>=) for []
21:21:27 <shachaf> oerjan: btw i only want partial credit
21:22:07 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Cont'
21:22:07 <lambdabot> `Const' (imported from Control.Applicative),
21:22:13 <lambdabot> ((a -> b) -> a -> b) -> Cont (a -> b) a
21:22:43 <oerjan> that flipped thing looks interesting too...
21:23:08 <shachaf> (=<<) :: (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
21:23:32 <shachaf> So it's just instantiating the ms to make it work.
21:24:01 <oerjan> well ok i was mainly surprised it typed at all
21:24:11 <shachaf> @ty runCont $ (cont . (=<<)) id
21:24:39 <oerjan> if you set b = a you have church numerals there...
21:25:01 <shachaf> That would be (b -> b) -> b -> b, wouldn't it?
21:25:17 <oerjan> i mean above in my first try
21:25:37 <oerjan> id _is_ a church numeral, just not the most interesting one
21:25:53 <shachaf> @ty (cont . (=<<)) (\f x -> f (f x))
21:26:20 <shachaf> @ty (=<<) (\f z -> f (f z))
21:26:28 <zzo38> I think it does makes more sense for (=<<) as well as return and join to be methods of Monad and then make Functor a superclass, similar to how Comonad is; since, it can be like a return/fmap/join or it can be (=<<) as a functor from the Kleisli category
21:27:05 <shachaf> > (<>) >>= (\f z -> f (f z)) $ "hello"
21:27:12 <shachaf> > (<>) >>= (\f z -> f (f (f z))) $ "hello"
21:29:42 <Sgeo> I've never tried guacamole
21:30:02 <Sgeo> I think IRC (and other chats) have prevented me from going off the deep end for a long time
21:30:16 <copumpkin> get off the computer and go get some right now
21:30:21 <Taneb> It's quite a nice dip
21:30:24 <Taneb> Good with potato skins
21:30:39 <shachaf> Sgeo: in my expert opinion they haven't hth
21:30:59 <oerjan> zzo38: making Functor a superclass of Monad was an April Fools joke in reddit r/haskell this year, btw; several people commented it was the only one they'd fallen for this year
21:31:21 <copumpkin> make it well and let it lead the way
21:31:34 <Sgeo> I think I'll just ask the person who makes hamburgers to put avocado on the side
21:31:46 <copumpkin> guacamole is so much more than just avocado
21:32:00 <oerjan> zzo38: so basically _many_ people have been wanting this for years, but it keeps being put off for a combination of backwards compatibility and technical reasons.
21:32:08 <copumpkin> I'm not even a huge fan of avocado on its own
21:32:18 <copumpkin> but combining it with spices, lime, onion, chunks of tomato, and so on
21:32:45 <oerjan> as in, no one has managed to make a solution that keeps backwards compatibility without subtle technical issues
21:33:11 <Taneb> Do we need to care about backwards compatibility? Look at what the GHC people did with Num
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21:33:58 <zzo38> Yes, there are compatibility reasons.
21:33:59 <Taneb> Just have the GHC people say "In 6 months, Applicative will be a superclass of Monad. If this breaks your code, on your head be it"
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21:35:12 <zzo38> I do have a solution but it requires making an entirely new programming language, mostly, and then having something to convert programs to combine modules if needed, possibly.
21:35:38 <Taneb> zzo38, that sounds a tad overkill
21:35:46 <oerjan> Taneb: well that _does_ give a precedent.
21:36:09 <zzo38> I also don't want Applicative to be a superclass even though I do want all Monad to automatically be Applicative, but using another mechanism (I can think of it, though); mathematically, Applicative is not a superclass of Monad.
21:36:59 <oerjan> as much as Functor is.
21:37:40 <oerjan> (<*>) = ap and pure = return work just as well as fmap = liftM
21:37:42 <zzo38> oerjan: No it isn't! The feature of the (->) category just happens to be that all monads on (->) are applicative. So this is a different kind of property than a superclass, I think.
21:38:16 <oerjan> zzo38: well Monad is just -> monads.
21:38:52 <oerjan> in a more general category, even >>= doesn't belong in the monad class.
21:39:11 <zzo38> oerjan: I agree that >>= doesn't belong; return, join, and =<< belong, but not >>=
21:40:24 <zzo38> Well, since there isn't another feature to do this, it could be a superclass, but then, there are a lot of other classes that want to do this and making them all superclasses when the programs aren't would confuse everything, which is why I think there ought to be another feature that can also do this too.
21:40:40 <nooodl> what other monads are there, next to (->)
21:41:11 <zzo38> (Possibly, like superclasses, but defined the other way around, I guess)
21:43:57 <nooodl> <oerjan> zzo38: well Monad is just -> monads.
21:44:05 <nooodl> are there "non-(->) moands"
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21:44:28 <shachaf> nooodl: There are monads in categories other than (->)
21:44:30 <zzo38> nooodl: There are monads on other categories. By -> monads it means monads on the (->) category
21:45:31 <Taneb> Are there monads on, eg, the Kleisli Maybe category
21:45:33 <zzo38> All categories have a Identity monad, and all categories with a final object have a Finalize monad for each final object it has, but other than that they have different monads
21:45:35 <Taneb> And what would they look like
21:46:48 <Koen_> why can't we travel through time but why do we want to anyway?
21:47:32 <Koen_> why is not moving traveling forward at one second per second enough
21:48:02 <Taneb> Koen_, we want control
21:48:09 <Taneb> We want to forsee, we want to change
21:48:15 <Koen_> please don't control me I like freedom
21:48:28 <Taneb> Of time, not of eachother
21:48:39 <Taneb> But for this purpose, only time
21:48:42 <Koen_> (unless you wearing high heels in that case control is ok)
21:49:15 <Koen_> Taneb: but you can change even without traveling through time right?
21:49:27 <Taneb> How would you recognize it as change?
21:49:31 <Koen_> though history tends to show politics are very very very very slow to evolve
21:49:40 <Taneb> It is, as far as you can tell, what would have happened anyway
21:49:44 <Taneb> The alpha timeline
21:49:47 <Koen_> Taneb: hmm well for instance my hair look different than last year
21:50:11 <Taneb> Also, I don't have any high heels that fit, but I'm pretty tall
21:50:13 <Koen_> so you're an alternate timelines partisan then
21:50:21 <Koen_> yeah that's been a problem to me too
21:50:28 <Taneb> I think that that's what makes most sense
21:50:57 <Koen_> it does make sense, most shoeshop people told me they had nothing above 45
21:51:12 <Koen_> (well at least french sizing I don' tknow about europe)
21:51:45 <Taneb> Much as I'd love to discuss time travel and high heels for people with larger feet with you, I have to sleep now
21:51:51 <Koen_> Taneb: so, suppose you travel back in time, change something, then "come back"
21:51:55 <Koen_> where do you come back to?
21:52:01 <Koen_> ok have nice sleep
21:52:19 <Taneb> It would depend on your time machine and if you left a tether or something
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21:52:28 <Koen_> it wouldn't make much sense to come "back" to the new timeline
21:52:36 <Koen_> since technically you've probably never left it
21:53:18 <zzo38> I don't think you can travel in time any way other than forward one second per second, *by definition*, but it might be possible to have a strange geometry of spacetime allowing forward in spacetime sometimes to be backwards geometry, maybe
21:53:24 <Koen_> (for instance if you go back in time because you want to "fix" something, in the new timeline in doesn't need fixing any more, thus the you from that new timeline has no incentive to travel back in time
21:54:13 <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell.
21:54:14 <Koen_> zzo38: for instance if some people start moving reaaaaaaaaaally fast at relativistic speeds would you say they travel through weird geometry?
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21:54:47 <zzo38> Koen_: Even if they do that, it doesn't go backwards or in other directions than it normally does, though.
21:55:25 <zzo38> Such things as warp drives and worm holes and whatever may result in strange connections between spacetime, though, I suppose.
21:56:38 <kmc> shachaf: are you going to enter in the Underhanded C Contest?
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21:58:25 <shachaf> I wasn't planning on it... Should I?
21:58:47 <kmc> if i have a good idea
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22:00:43 <zzo38> I have looked at the Underhanded C codes, and find it is not so difficult to see that something is wrong with it, and what is wrong with it. But then, some people have called some of my ordinary C codes obfuscated, even though I don't think so.
22:02:14 <Koen_> kmc: how good at C do you have to be to enter? would you encourage some naive novice to rush in or should I watch from a distance?
22:02:43 <shachaf> Koen_: You have to be at least 14 good at it.
22:03:21 <Koen_> shachaf: I'm afraid that's 17 more than I am
22:04:44 <kmc> Koen_: i don't know
22:04:48 <kmc> take a look at some of the past winners
22:04:57 <kmc> keeping in mind that those are the best submissions and it might still be fun to attempt
22:05:53 <Koen_> maybe I'll try then
22:07:15 <zzo38> They look like they might seem like correctly to someone who doesn't know how to program a C code, but someone who does know how to program a C code should easily be able to see what went "wrong", as far as I can tell.
22:07:43 <kmc> C is easy, you just need to think about everything all the time and never make any mistakes
22:07:44 <Bike> Well the point isn't to make them undetectable, just not trivially detectable, and even then look like an accident, right?
22:08:13 <Fiora> from looking at the past entries, it seems way less about abusing C too much and more about just really creative sneakiness
22:08:21 <Fiora> like bugs that are literally omitting a comma in the right place
22:09:07 <Bike> speaking of C I'm semi-trying a "low level" lisp implementation for once
22:09:25 <nooodl> my favorite underhanded c code entry is the "censoring an image" one's winner
22:09:25 <Bike> a closure can just be a function pointer plus a void* array for the closed over values, i think
22:09:44 <nooodl> http://notanumber.net/archives/54/underhanded-c-the-leaky-redaction
22:12:09 <Bike> wow, PPM is simple isn't it
22:12:13 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell.
22:12:20 <HackEgo> 1015) <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell.
22:15:30 <oerjan> nooodl: i was slightly proud that i saw how it worked without looking at the explanation
22:16:00 <kmc> Bike: yeah, PPM is nice
22:16:12 <kmc> you can write a PPM reader / writer in any language in 2 minutes
22:16:15 <kmc> except malbolge
22:16:24 <kmc> also there are two variants, binary PPM and ascii PPM
22:17:00 <Bike> i assume there's a unicode ppm that lets me use ⁰ and such
22:17:04 <shachaf> Hmm, no, it's pgm that i love
22:17:46 <kmc> shachaf: because it's so easy?
22:17:48 <zzo38> I have written a program in TeX to read ASCII PBM
22:18:05 <pikhq> PNM is a fairly nice format.
22:18:15 <shachaf> kmc: It's true that i love it, and it's true that it is so easy.
22:18:21 <shachaf> I make no claims about causal relations.
22:20:19 <kmc> itt relevance logic
22:20:27 <kmc> zzo38: cool
22:21:21 <zzo38> TeX doesn't have a command to read arbitrary binary files (the only binary file it can read is TFM), although it can read/write arbitrary ASCII files.
22:21:36 <zzo38> kmc: To include a picture on a page without using specials.
22:22:24 <zzo38> I thought that was obviously?
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22:28:09 <kmc> it's never obviously with you zzo38
22:28:42 <zzo38> Well, to me it is, anyways.
22:28:53 <zzo38> Maybe to you it isn't.
22:28:56 <kmc> maybe you had implemented an astrology calculator / Pokémon card game simulator in Plain TeX and wanted to load Pokémon cards as ASCII PBM files
22:29:20 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderful thing, you gotta take advantage <kmc> sometimes i eat food off the ground just to keep mine on its toes
22:29:24 <HackEgo> 1016) <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderful thing, you gotta take advantage <kmc> sometimes i eat food off the ground just to keep mine on its toes
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22:29:59 <lambdabot> zzo38 says: Such as, we try to make something similar to a combination of Haskell, C, BLISS, TeX, WEB, Prolog, INTERCAL, and Magic: the Gathering; and then make it with many things omitted such as
22:29:59 <lambdabot> Unicode syntax, layout, do-notation, list comprehensions; and add in macros and stuff, and then make up something new......
22:30:33 <Sgeo> shachaf, is this you? http://wqdb.org/?732
22:30:53 <Sgeo> (yes I'm only saying that because of the nick)
22:31:15 <Sgeo> (And no I don't think it's really you)
22:31:26 <zzo38> kmc: Implementing ephemeris in TeX would be helpful, but I don't have one and don't really know how.
22:31:33 <kmc> shachaf doesn't even own a television
22:32:21 <Sgeo> Got it. So it's GreeN who is shachaf.
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22:33:07 <shachaf> i don't even own a television, but i don't even not own a television either
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22:34:10 <Sgeo> Do you either odd own a television or odd not own a television?
22:35:14 <oerjan> was there a cat inside
22:35:34 <shachaf> In some ways I understand Sgeo less than I do zzo38.
22:35:36 <oerjan> shachaf: he's even odder than usual
22:36:06 <Sgeo> shachaf, the prior question is what was known as an attempt at humor.
22:36:20 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to sgeo38.
22:36:26 <shachaf> Sgeo: I'm not talking about the prior question.
22:36:31 <shachaf> I"m talking about everything you say.
22:36:35 <kmc> maybe sgo38
22:36:52 -!- sgeo38 has changed nick to sgo38.
22:37:04 <kmc> hm zzo38 did you go to school at Cambridge in the UK?
22:37:43 <kmc> cantabrigians have usernames like [a-z]{3}[0-9]{2}
22:37:46 <zzo38> I went to school at some schools in British Columbia
22:37:52 <sgo38> shachaf, IRC is my primary social life. Does that help?
22:38:06 <zzo38> kmc: Then perhaps it is some coincidence?
22:39:27 <oerjan> > zipWith ((-)`on`fromEnum)"zzo38" "aaron"
22:39:52 <kmc> the probability that 5 random characters from [a-z0-9] fit that pattern is 2.91%
22:39:52 <oerjan> > zipWith ((-)`on`fromEnum.toUpper)"zzo38" "aaron"
22:41:10 <oerjan> > zipWith ((-)`on`fromEnum)"ZZO38" "aaron"
22:41:18 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
22:41:46 <oerjan> > zipWith ((-)`on`fromEnum)"ZZo38" "aarON"
22:42:12 <nooodl> iirc there was a chronojournal entry about the origin of zzo38
22:42:27 <nooodl> and the digits 3 and 8
22:42:33 <tswett> Hm. What's my favorite two-digit number.
22:42:44 <Bike> Yeah, 64 for sure.
22:42:46 <oerjan> zzt was some system or other, no?
22:42:51 <kmc> 2^3 = 8, coincidence? i think not
22:42:58 <kmc> zzt is a weird dos game i thought
22:43:00 <tswett> Yeah, that's a pretty good number. 13*5, isn't it?
22:43:06 <nooodl> it's a dos game/game creation system
22:43:14 <Bike> Sure, if you do that "multiplication" crud.
22:43:23 <oerjan> which zzo38 has programmed iirc
22:43:26 <kmc> perhaps 2^3 = 1
22:43:53 <zzo38> I know many things about ZZT; the documentation doesn't mention everything properly but I can figure out many thing by myself
22:43:55 <kmc> `run python -c 'print 2^3'
22:44:32 <zzo38> So I think I know why the #DIE command sometimes causes other pieces to move
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22:44:49 <Bike> `run python -c 'print (2 ** 3) % 7'
22:45:05 <shachaf> kmc: of course it's not a coincidence
22:45:17 <kmc> coin cidence
22:45:23 <Bike> i should pronounce it like
22:45:29 <Bike> just for the hell of it
22:45:39 <shachaf> Isn't that how it's pronounced?
22:47:36 <zzo38> Using a debugger I have managed to copy the table storing the properties of all of the pieces, and formatted it and print it out, and now I can understand what all of that means; most things I did not need a debugger to figure out though.
22:49:58 <zzo38> Other people have helped a few things such as figuring out the format of the music in the executable file, though.
22:50:17 <zzo38> My method is the scientific method to figure out all of these things.
22:50:52 <kmc> i register both "co incidence" and "quincidence" as correct
22:50:57 <kmc> one day I should learn IPA
22:51:18 <kmc> then i can talk about voiced medial post-alevolar fricatives or whatever
22:51:45 <olsner> I thought IPA was separate from all those fancy names for sounds
22:51:45 <sgo38> fictional frictional fricatives
22:51:59 <kmc> i need to learn the names of sounds and then how to represent them in IPA
22:52:43 <Bike> well, it has a character for each phoneme. good enough for me
22:53:06 <zzo38> I have once made up a set of symbols that overlap so one means voiced, one is medial, one is post-alevolar, one is fricatives, whatever, one for consonants and one for vowels (which works differently), rather than using letters of the alphabet like IPA use
22:53:10 <Bike> Anyway I think I mostly meant a change in stress. Making the "co" very distinct.
22:53:25 <olsner> but even IPA is only an approximation of the actual sounds, and many sounds that have the same IPA symbol may not sound the same
22:53:30 <kmc> zzo38: that sounds like it could be better
22:53:58 <Bike> I think that's how Hangul works.
22:54:11 <Bike> olsner: well yeah, it's phonemes, not sounds.
22:54:16 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, the actual names of sounds are fairly easy to learn
22:54:22 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I know that is what I think better too
22:54:31 <zzo38> That is why I did it.
22:57:01 <oerjan> <pikhq> Also, it's Ig Noble. <-- no it's Ig Nobel hth
22:57:07 <Jafet> Coincide, the killing of coins.
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23:31:24 <zzo38> I think Esoteric Verilog is more than Turing complete
23:36:05 <sgo38> But I have things I need to do
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23:55:34 <kmc> `run echo hello | iconv -t baudot
23:55:36 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion to `baudot' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
23:56:37 <Bike> oh that's where "baud" is from neat
23:57:18 <kmc> they're named after the same person yeah
23:57:50 <kmc> why is there no unit named the shannon :/
00:00:57 <Bike> he uses "bit" and "baud" in his papers
00:01:03 <Bike> self-sacrifice. shine on, claude
00:01:09 <kmc> nobody uses units named after themselves
00:01:15 <Bike> you make a slightly less stupid future for us all
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00:10:13 <zzo38> If everyone else's name is already taken, then you should name it after yourself, isn't it?
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00:42:28 <sgo38> How important is it to regard clothing's care stuff?
00:42:33 <sgo38> I kind of just ignored it...
00:42:46 <kmc> you mean the stuff on the tag?
00:43:00 <oerjan> if you wash things at too high temp, they may shrink or worse.
00:43:07 <kmc> for regular cotton shirts and such, not important at all
00:43:34 <sgo38> :/ me might have shrunken shirts tomorrow
00:43:53 <oerjan> if you wash red clothes with white, you may ruin the white ones.
00:43:58 <kmc> for certain materials like silk and wool, you do need to do specific things
00:44:08 <kmc> oerjan: usually ok after the first few washes though
00:44:10 * sgo38 doesn't have silk or wool in there I think
00:44:49 <kmc> sgo38: i just have a bunch of normal cotton or cotton/poly blend clothes and I wash them all together (white and black, not much color though) on hot usually, and they're always fine
00:45:33 <kmc> there are particular kinds of stains that require special care
00:46:30 <kmc> for blood stains you should treat it with hydrogen peroxide (when fresh preferably) and then wash it on cold
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00:47:55 <oerjan> old iwc readers may want to know about this http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=7294
00:49:13 <oerjan> it's supposedly even more roleplaying centered than the ordinary ones though
00:54:39 <shachaf> a new innovation for expressing dissatisfaction on irc
00:55:23 <oerjan> it's certainly space saving
00:59:17 <sgo38> doesthiswork, but that doesn't resemble /me
01:00:35 <sgo38> oerjan, will I need to have read regular IWC though?
01:00:40 <sgo38> I haven't read the whole thing yet
01:02:06 <oerjan> sgo38: i doubt it, or else the pyramid readers would have had to as well...
01:02:30 <oerjan> and these strips are not canonical in the regular one
01:03:42 <oerjan> i'm only up to no. 9 myself of these ones
01:04:22 <oerjan> but so far they seem pretty disconnected gag-a-day strips
01:12:56 <oerjan> hm it appears to have a paranoia theme
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01:27:48 <Sgeo> oerjan, some of them, at least
01:28:15 <Sgeo> And by some I mean I just reached #7 which is Paranoia themed
01:29:00 <oerjan> i said that just as i reached the second i found
01:29:35 <Sgeo> The book the GM holds gives the game away
01:30:56 <Sgeo> I vaguely want to play Munchkin
01:31:51 <oerjan> well the point is there was a theme not in the regular comic.
01:34:26 <FreeFull> What's the best nondeterministic programming language?
01:35:51 <Sgeo> Nondeterministic as in gives multiple answers or nondeterministic as in random?
01:37:15 <Bike> if i say "Mercury" will you go look at that and stop asking "best" questions
01:38:10 <HackEgo> BiKe: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
01:38:25 <shachaf> did you learn about profunctors yet ...............
01:38:50 <Bike> You made that up.
01:38:55 <Sgeo> Hey, it's not me asking the 'best' question this time!
01:39:10 <Bike> I... didn't say it was?
01:39:30 <shachaf> Bike: I make a lot of things up, Bike.
01:39:39 <Sgeo> http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/iwc/?strip=19
01:39:43 <Sgeo> I don't get it
01:39:46 <shachaf> One time I made up all of Portugal.
01:39:58 <Sgeo> Is Rolling For Initiative indicative of something?
01:39:58 <Bike> Even the wars?
01:40:02 <shachaf> Sgeo: If you don't get it you should ask the person who linked it in the channel about it.
01:43:03 <oerjan> erm... i _think_ it's rolling for whether you or the opponent gets to do the first action.
01:43:24 <oerjan> or the order if there are more people, presumably.
01:44:14 <nooodl> these are all extremely non-funny
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01:45:33 <oerjan> shachaf: linking it doesn't mean i'm an expert hth
01:47:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i linked the iwc forum pointer to these
01:47:45 <oerjan> nooodl: you may have to like roleplaying to understand much of it
01:48:22 <zzo38> Rolling for initiative is used to determine the turn order, which can sometimes change.
01:49:46 <Sgeo> http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/iwc/?strip=26
01:49:47 <oerjan> zzo38: since this is on the pyramid site most roleplaying specifics are probably for the gurps system, btw (which dmm has always been using afaik)
01:49:52 <Sgeo> That one's awesome
01:50:04 <shachaf> zzo38: What about rolling for terminative?
01:50:31 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you want to be on `olist?
01:50:36 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think it is needed, since initiative is only for the turn order.
01:50:59 <zzo38> I probably don't need to be on such list.
01:51:18 <Sgeo> zzo38, olist is people who want to be told when Order of the Stick updates
01:51:39 <zzo38> I don't want to be on these lists.
01:59:00 <zzo38> Can DRAM be reset to all bits set? Someone told me it can, but not to all bits clear, and all bits clear is what I am trying to do.
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02:15:11 <kmc> they have pills for that
02:19:14 * Fiora gives shachaf a blanket
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03:23:47 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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05:19:43 <shachaf> 22:17 <lexande> BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKE
05:20:13 <Bike> Why would a train ride a bike?
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05:57:52 <zzo38> It would have to be a large bike for the train to fit and not break it. Also, the train has its own wheels, but perhaps they broke, or the engine broke?
05:58:52 <shachaf> zzo38: You should suggest your theories in #cslounge-trains
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07:57:59 <Taneb> My guess is that he's at work
07:57:59 <ais523_> shachaf: ais523_ uses wired connections exclusively
07:58:04 <ais523_> and ais523 wireless connections exclusively
07:58:21 <ais523_> the underscore typically implies that I'm at work, because when I'm borrowing connections from friends, it's normally via wireless router
07:58:30 <ais523_> and because often we need to be on simultaneously
07:58:40 <ais523_> well, that's why the nicks became different
07:58:45 <shachaf> Why not keep an always-on client?
07:58:55 <ais523_> then I assigned them their roles permanently out of stubbornness and whimsy
07:59:12 <shachaf> lambdabot has a theoretical way of linking nicks.
07:59:17 <shachaf> I think it's only half-implemented, though.
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08:22:24 <ais523> that's meant to be the /reliable/ connection
08:22:56 <ais523> looks like the desktop computer crashed…
08:25:21 <fizzie> Wires: not so reliable after all.
08:25:41 <fizzie> Wires: it's what's for dinner.
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09:10:48 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
09:15:56 <HackEgo> uname: invalid option -- 'R' \ Try `uname --help' for more information.
09:16:04 <HackEgo> Usage: uname [OPTION]... \ Print certain system information. With no OPTION, same as -s. \ \ -a, --all print all information, in the following order, \ except omit -p and -i if unknown: \ -s, --kernel-name print the kernel name \ -n, --nodename print the network node hostname \
09:16:14 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.7.0-umlbox #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013 x86_64 GNU/Linux
09:16:25 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, what's -R supposed to print?
09:16:39 <AnotherTest> I though it printed the release information
09:17:09 <HackEgo> No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux \ Release:n/a \ Codename:n/a
09:17:26 <fizzie> Ah, Debian n/a, the best distribution.
09:17:58 <AnotherTest> N/A was probably the best version ever released. Really stable
09:23:03 <fizzie> xkcd's subway map thingie looks funky.
09:32:12 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130408-subways_of_finland.png here I maed the same thing of our glorious country.
09:32:24 <fizzie> Also includes: scribbling with a mouse.
09:36:42 <Taneb> Does the US have intercity subways?
09:38:57 <fizzie> I believe some creative license have been taking in connecting those things. (See e.g. "Trolley Rt. 10 to California" from Philadelphia to LA.)
09:39:37 <fizzie> That just got rid of the first letter.
09:40:12 <fizzie> s/.//g would have been acceptable also.
09:41:13 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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11:09:25 <Sgeo> "THIS OIL VACCINE PRODUCT BUSINESS OFFER MAY INTEREST YOU."
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12:19:10 <Rhino> Is anybody in there?
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12:31:13 <fizzie> Just nod if you can hear me?
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12:33:50 <HackEgo> Rhino: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:35:00 <Taneb> Rhino, important questions!
12:35:05 <Rhino> Is it possible to discuss different issues here?
12:35:15 <Taneb> Are you from, in, or otherwise associated with Finland?
12:36:01 <Rhino> No, I am not absolutely associated with Finland
12:36:15 <Taneb> (Hexham's in the UK)
12:36:33 <Rhino> Originally I am from Russia
12:36:50 <Rhino> But now I have to live and work in Vietnam
12:37:06 <Fiora> #esoteric is kind of legendarily off topic so it should be okay :p
12:37:08 <Taneb> You're getting progressively further from Finland and Hexham
12:37:54 <Taneb> I'll demonstrate the channel's topicality.
12:38:23 <Taneb> At least Russia and Finland share a border
12:38:44 <Rhino> I see, but I am in Vietnam just now
12:38:56 <Rhino> And I have never been in Finland
12:39:02 <Taneb> This is problematic
12:39:22 <Taneb> Perhaps if you keep going, you'll go round the world the other way
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12:39:52 <Taneb> Fiora, you doing anything for 4/13?
12:40:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes, I can tell by the vast chasm between the opinions vocalized by my gran and by the rest of my peers
12:41:22 <Fiora> 4/13? oh right, that's a special day
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12:42:17 <Fiora> maybe I'll wear jade's outfit or something?
12:42:25 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's month/year, not day/month
12:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway what does your gran/your peers think of thatcher
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12:43:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I live in the north-east of England, a region long associated with coal mining.
12:43:56 <Taneb> Which group do you think has which opinion
12:45:18 <Taneb> They are in the house of lords, after all
12:45:29 <Fiora> I'm not sure what else I should do for 4/13
12:45:51 <Fiora> maybe watch cascde again :p
12:46:10 <Taneb> There's a party happening somewhere near here, but I don't know where it is, if I'm invited, or if I can even make it
12:46:22 <ion> 2013-04 (ISO 8601)
12:46:49 <Taneb> Both, maybe neither
12:49:53 <Fiora> I'm not really a party person
12:52:42 <Taneb> I think Margaret Thatcher must have been the most polarizing politician ever
12:54:36 <Fiora> if you put two polarizing politicians in front of each other, and then like, turn one 90 degrees
12:54:40 <Fiora> do they turn dark?
12:55:12 <Taneb> Sounds like a fun experiment
12:55:25 <Taneb> Except it involves politicians
12:55:54 <Taneb> I also experience long bouts of self-loathing
12:55:57 <Fiora> if I was less lazy maybe I could make a jade god tier outfit or something
12:56:25 <Taneb> Alas, real self-loathing
12:58:14 <Jafet> Fiora: you can't turn the BNP dark this way
12:58:54 <Fiora> let me guess, because they're too white?
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13:04:42 <Phantom_Hoover> there is apparently some confusion on twitter over whether the #nowthatchersdead hashtag refers to thatcher or cher
13:05:12 <Fiora> tag conflicts are amusing
13:05:31 <Fiora> like that wonderful fan war between k-pop fans and holmes fans over the 'sherlock' tag
13:06:32 <monqy> is that cher dead yet
13:06:50 <monqy> partying over thatcher dying seems a bit.......morbid???
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13:40:19 <kmc> what's 4/13
13:41:30 <kmc> ♫ brezhnev took afghanistan, begin took beirut, galtieri took the union jack, and maggie over lunch one day, took a cruiser with all hands, apparently to make him give it back ♫
13:41:44 <Koen_> oklofok: puzzles of the day http://i.imgur.com/JjiX270.png
13:41:44 <fizzie> kmc: It's a STUCKHOME thing.
13:43:43 <Koen_> (to win you have to move once and exactly once through every blue square)
13:44:01 <Koen_> (without stepping outside)
13:49:20 <kmc> "Good thing about #Thatcher: her economic polices led to empty warehouses & so she created raves"
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14:33:47 <oklofok> Koen_: do you know the theory?
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14:39:58 <Koen_> oklofok: well I guess yeah
14:40:04 <Koen_> maybe not all of it
14:40:13 <Koen_> but enough to prove that this one looks impossible
14:40:24 <Koen_> (and it's only level 3 out of 5)
14:41:38 <oklofok> actually on a second thought that's probably np complete, as it's hamiltonian path instead of euclidean
14:43:12 <Koen_> I reproduced the grid on a piece of paper
14:43:33 <Koen_> and with a pen I wrote down all pieces of path that are mandatory
14:43:46 <Koen_> and basically in one area there is necessarily a dead-end
14:44:09 <Koen_> and knowing that there is a dead-end there, we get a necessary dead-end some other place close
14:44:23 <Koen_> thus I don't really know what I'm supposed to do
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14:49:22 <tromp_> where do you play that game? online?
14:52:08 <Koen_> tromp_: it's an online test to... enter a school
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14:55:02 <Koen_> but given the kind of tests I have passed already I wouldn't be surprised if the "solution" was that there actually was an invisible square somewhere, or something
14:55:10 <Koen_> which I would find most stupid
14:57:05 <Koen_> oklofok: basic theory is that I'm only allowed one dead-end, besides the square i'm starting with, right?
14:57:25 <tromp_> i dont understand all the french i'm agreeing to:(
14:57:57 <Koen_> tromp_: they're asking you to certify you're not gonna be lying about the information you input
14:58:42 <Koen_> with the underlying threat that when you physically go to the school they'll find out anyway
14:59:03 <Koen_> that hasn't stopped quite a few journalists to register, though
14:59:15 <tromp_> these multiple choice are tough if u suck at french
14:59:40 <Koen_> tromp_: most are stupid question
14:59:47 <Koen_> like what is your favourite color
15:00:06 <Koen_> who is your favourite person, elijah wood or elijah whatshisname
15:00:32 <tromp_> hmm, a singleton choice questoin:)
15:00:34 <Koen_> I reckon the only one you should be careful with is the one about what an algorithm is
15:00:43 <Koen_> yeah that one was particularly tough
15:00:47 <Taneb> "Descartes... Est un moyen de transport dans Minecraft"
15:01:03 <Koen_> wait, I didn't have that one
15:02:00 <Koen_> ok, they just told me I was done with all the tests, and that if I had passed them out of curiosity I should mention it now
15:02:16 <Koen_> I'm too curious about what follows though :)
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15:08:16 <boily> probably. they were kindly enough to share an album with you.
15:08:18 <oklofok> "<Koen_> oklofok: basic theory is that I'm only allowed one dead-end, besides the square i'm starting with, right?" <<< i was referring to the fact it's very easy to check if there's an eulerian trail/path through a graph. but this is a hamiltonian path, which is much harder.
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15:09:29 <ThatOtherPerson> " a trail in a graph which visits every edge exactly once"
15:10:44 <tromp_> hmm, i'm not gonna get through the sms confirmation
15:11:14 <Koen_> tromp_: if you want you can use my phone
15:11:27 <Koen_> though it's possible they'll notice that number has already been used
15:11:54 <tromp_> dont think i can go back and change my phone number
15:12:30 <tromp_> weird; if u made typo in phone#, you're screwed:(
15:12:31 <Koen_> hmmm well they must have somthing to do to help people who mistyped their number
15:13:18 <tromp_> howmany digits s confirmation#?
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15:14:06 <Koen_> french numbers are 06 xx xx xx xx
15:14:11 <tromp_> i have to enter Code de confirmation
15:14:11 <Koen_> or maybe 07 sometimes
15:14:50 <tromp_> maybe they use same # for everybody:)
15:16:00 <Koen_> on unrelated news I just solved the puzzle BUT THE TEST HAS BEEN OVER FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES
15:16:10 <Koen_> maybe I can send them an email or something
15:17:05 <tromp_> oh, i can enter a new phone#
15:17:08 <Koen_> no I'm still pretty convinced it's impossible
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15:19:49 <ais523> hey, anyone here a fan of semantic markup?
15:20:14 <boily> as in microformats?
15:20:21 <ais523> what I want to ask is, is <table> the correct way to do a form containing labels on the left that line up, matching form elements on the right that line up?
15:20:35 <ais523> thinking about it, I guess the technically correct method involves <dl>, CSS'ed to render as a table
15:20:36 <Taneb> As in the HTML5 stuff?
15:20:43 <ais523> Taneb: or just HTML/CSS generally
15:21:19 <boily> you don't need any table. just “label { display: inline-block; width: 40em; }
15:21:41 <ais523> boily: what if you want the width to autoadjust?
15:21:43 <boily> then you can match a <label for=...> lorem ipsum </label> <input ... />
15:21:50 <ais523> hardcoded widths really annoy me
15:22:12 <ais523> basically because they don't adjust to anything
15:22:12 <boily> instead of 40em, you can put 30%.
15:22:27 <boily> then, it'll match the parent block element.
15:22:29 <ais523> well that's still hardcoded, and arguably worse because now it's adjusting to screen width not font size
15:22:53 <ais523> I can understand a width=50% to do columns or the like
15:23:06 <ais523> but apart from that, I want everything to size to the font or the like
15:23:19 <ais523> one of the top reasons to use HTML for a user interface is that everything sizes to fit…
15:23:33 <boily> you want you label column to fit the width of the longest label?
15:23:37 <ais523> (some other languages get this right too, like Java, but it has other problems)
15:23:52 <ais523> or wrap the labels if there's no room for the longest label and the longest form element
15:24:01 <boily> you can cheat that with some javascript, but it's going to be ugly.
15:24:11 <ais523> or you could use a table
15:24:16 <ais523> I'm just mostly worried about accessibility
15:24:43 <ais523> really what you want is a \begin{align} from LaTeX, but HTML/CSS doesn't have that yet
15:26:00 <Taneb> Things I do when I'm bored:
15:26:10 <boily> ais523: there seems to be a solution here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9325426/css-how-to-create-a-label-width-of-the-longest-containing-text
15:26:10 <Taneb> Write a program that when it's run, it deletes itself
15:26:57 <ais523> boily: oh wow that's broken, if the labels aren't the same height as the thing they're labelling they'll end up mismatched
15:27:13 <ais523> also the reading order is totally wrong
15:27:29 <ais523> perhaps I should give up on trying to do CSS "correctly", it's just not possible :)
15:29:09 <Taneb> The page my router displays when you tell it to restart using its web interface is a table with one cell, which contains a font element
15:29:15 <Jafet> I like how they're trying to implement <table>.
15:29:47 <ais523> Jafet: the thing that started this conversation was "I'm using a table for this atm, is there a more correct way?"
15:30:27 <ais523> the hilarious thing is that I just remembered this was for a debug view
15:30:31 <ais523> so nobody but me is likely to use it anyway
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15:33:07 <Jafet> So tables are semantically wrong for displaying items in a tabular form
15:34:33 <ais523> I guess each of the rows is semantically meaningful, as is each of the columns
15:34:47 <ais523> I'm not sure if the normal table navigation commands are what you'd want to use to navigate it, though
15:35:40 <ais523> btw, this is for the jsondb stuff
15:35:55 <ais523> I actually have it working a way I really like now, working many-to-many joins and everything
15:36:08 <ais523> and an interface that's way nicer on me than SQL would be
15:36:13 <ais523> because it can imply many of the joins itself
15:36:59 <ais523> meanwhile, I'm also getting slightly better at reading Cyrillic
15:37:08 <ais523> occasionally I can make out an English loanword even if all the letters are different
15:37:25 <coppro> parliamentary privilege is fascinating
15:37:43 <ais523> coppro: has someone just used it dramatically?
15:38:16 <Koen_> tromp_: how are you doing so far?
15:39:25 <ais523> the first letter's a v
15:39:28 <Taneb> (actually an English loan word, sort of)
15:39:57 <Taneb> Roughly, "Vauxhall"
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15:40:02 <Taneb> It means railway station
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15:46:26 <tromp_> Koen: see private chat
15:46:40 <Taneb> I'm gonna wander off now, perhaps
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16:02:43 <coppro> I was referring to the general matter, though
16:03:00 <ais523> it's an interesting choice of thing to randomly become interested in :)
16:03:06 <coppro> ais523: Although I can't remember if I told you about Mr. Warawa and his motion on sex-selective abortion
16:03:10 <coppro> it's not particularly random
16:03:14 <coppro> I've just been investigating it more
16:03:18 <ais523> was he in favour of it or against it?
16:04:05 <coppro> so the relevant context is that the House considered and defeated a motion to strike a special committee to investigate the legal definition of when life begins
16:04:39 <coppro> now, Mr. Warawa submitted a private member's motion to condemn sex-selective abortion (and take no action
16:05:25 <ais523> was this related, and/or an attempt to exploit a loophole?
16:05:50 <coppro> neither was overtly an attempt to ban abortion, however
16:06:29 <ais523> I'm reminded of something that happened in guild council, where there were basically people trying to pass motions to make the guild take an opinion in the israel vs. palestine conflict
16:06:42 <ais523> and I basically tried to scam guild council into making all the motions fail
16:07:00 <ais523> the chairs caught on to what I was doing and stopped it, although they didn't realise it was intentional until after the meeting
16:07:43 <coppro> Now, it is the rule and practice of the House that all private members' business must be screened before a subcommittee of the committee on procedure and house affairs to determine whether or not it is similar to business already brought up, or before the Senate
16:08:23 <coppro> effectively just verifying that it isn't the same as business already considered
16:08:26 <ais523> btw, should we take this conversation to ##nomic where it's actually ontopic? that way it'd be more likely for other people to chip in
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16:35:13 <fizzie> Grumble grumble "You must take the following steps before you can proceed: 1. Check your email for a message from MathWorks. 2. Click on the verification link in this email." but what if there is no message?
16:35:33 <ais523> fizzie: then you can't proceed
16:35:41 <fizzie> But I want to proceed. :/
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16:45:45 <elliott> 12:39:55: <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, thatcher died
16:45:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: am I allowed to celebrate just this once
16:47:13 <kmc> UK is now going through what the US went through when Reagan died
16:47:26 <kmc> tons of sickening respect from official channels
16:47:40 <kmc> but everyone saying "actually they were a prick" in informal or "opinion" channels
16:48:00 <kmc> i don't know how their approval ratings at death compared though
16:48:15 <kmc> (right before they died, I mean)
16:48:34 <ais523> kmc: margaret thatcher's approval ratings have been pretty low for ages
16:48:59 <kmc> Reagan is still seen by many as Republican Jesus, second only to actual Republican Jesus
16:49:14 <Bike> supply-side jesus is a hero
16:49:15 <kmc> (not be confused with actual Jesus, who said we should help the poor and stuff)
16:49:37 <kmc> trickle down jesus
16:50:11 <Bike> http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/franken/ssj01.html if anyone hasn't seen it
16:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well i mean in... most of the uk that isn't the home counties thatcher is intensely hated
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16:52:05 <elliott> 13:06:50: <monqy> partying over thatcher dying seems a bit.......morbid???
16:52:05 <elliott> 13:07:06: <Phantom_Hoover> yes, i think it's a bit tasteless myself
16:52:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i can think of another morbid, tasteless thing
16:52:44 <Bike> Bah. http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/09/17_franken.html
16:53:07 <kmc> Bike: four oh four
16:53:58 <Bike> http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2003/09/The-Gospel-Of-Supply-Side-Jesus.aspx here have a terrible link
16:54:32 <Gregor> The Gospel of Supply-Side Jesus. Man, gotta read this.
16:54:57 <Bike> are you fucking serious
16:55:13 <Bike> whatever just google "supply side jesus" it's just a comic in one of franken's books
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17:00:17 <kmc> invading italy? hope elephants help
17:00:21 <kmc> (spoiler: they don't)
17:01:57 <Bike> i think they worked alright in ethiopia
17:02:20 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: home counties means the area around London, but not London itself?
17:02:47 <ais523> kmc: it means the counties that are near enough london to contain parts of it
17:02:49 <Bike> i was assuming it meant the UK countries
17:02:53 <Bike> but i guess not :(
17:03:00 <ais523> there's some debate as to whether greater london is actually a county or not at all
17:03:15 <Bike> oh home COUNTIES
17:03:45 <ais523> so it arguably contains the outskirts of london, where it's thinned enough to not be solid city any more, but most people don't consider it to contain central london, or at least wouldn't mention it if it was central london they were referring to
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17:07:17 <elliott> ais523: http://agoranomic.org/ is down, is there another URL I should point people to?
17:07:32 <ais523> elliott: the FLR's at https://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~charles/agora/current_flr.txt
17:07:38 <ais523> I guess that'll have to do in the absence of a homepage
17:07:58 <elliott> is it possible to subscribe to the lists? that was on agoranomic.org
17:08:29 <ais523> well yeah, you just have to know the URLs
17:08:35 <ais523> which are in the registrar's report
17:08:43 <ais523> so if you get contact with agora somehow, you can bootstrap from there
17:08:57 <elliott> ais523: re your HTML question: you can use <labels> but use the CSS properties to make them display as a table
17:09:07 <elliott> there's display: table and such
17:09:22 <elliott> ais523: and my point is that the URLs to subscribe to the lists are presumably also down
17:09:25 <ais523> elliott: I was thinking about that
17:09:37 <ais523> well someone new joined recently
17:09:40 <ais523> and they must have done so somehow
17:09:47 <ais523> are you not running the mailing lists? I thought you were
17:10:06 <elliott> ais523: no, I believe Taral is; comex was going to take them over but I don't think it happened yet
17:10:46 <elliott> ais523: btw, I suspect it's more "accessible" to use a <table> here, considering browsers that ignore CSS
17:11:00 <elliott> e.g. certainly in w3m or whatever the table form will be nicer
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17:16:00 <metasepia> At or in this place: Stop here for a rest.
17:16:48 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:22:35 <kmc> ~duck metasepia
17:22:36 <metasepia> Metasepia is a genus of small cuttlefish from the Pacific Ocean.
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17:34:57 -!- fizzie has set topic: At or in this place: Stop here for a rest | Wire mesh Supply与您共享了相册。| roäld.dahl.net | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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17:35:38 <fizzie> Hey, I got the email. Now I can proceed.
17:48:19 <fizzie> The email. From MathWorks.
17:49:18 <fizzie> It is needed. In order to proceed.
17:49:31 <fizzie> It's not possible to proceed without the email.
17:49:43 <Gregor> The power of the email.
17:49:47 <Gregor> The power to allow you to proceed.
17:50:12 <fizzie> I proceeded. Because I had the email.
17:50:14 <kmc> Email. Reinvented. Again.
17:50:25 <kmc> An elegant, minimalist, suckless email, done right, that celebrates craftsmanship
17:51:21 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
17:54:09 <Bike> wow! i love craftsmanship, how did you know
17:56:17 <Fiora> Cliched ad copy. Reinvented. Again.
17:56:36 <Fiora> An elegant, minimal, suckless marketing slogan, done right, that celebrates large fonts.
17:57:05 * Gregor wipes a tear from his eye.
17:59:54 <Bike> have you considered monetizing that emotion, gregor
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18:09:51 <boily> monetizement is evil.
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18:18:46 <Bike> https://twitter.com/peteheat/status/321247583970418689/photo/1
18:44:51 <Bike> (is "margaret" a boy's name now or)
18:45:13 <kmc> itt kids these days
18:45:30 <elliott> gonna call her that from now on
18:46:28 <boily> it strangely fits her, for the little I know about her.
18:49:26 <fizzie> I just installed matlab with umask 077, and now only root has any privileges for the directories.
18:49:55 <fizzie> The files are all 755 or 644 or 444 or whatever, but the directories are all 0700.
18:50:52 <fizzie> (Also, there are 10998 *directories*. It's not a small program.)
18:51:30 <fizzie> There are 224637 files. I've had filesystems with less inodes than that.
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18:54:51 <fizzie> Now if I could only figure out how to tell this Unity thing to do focus-follows-mouse instead of click-to-focus.
18:55:07 <fizzie> (Or maybe there's a modifier key for click-to-focus-but-not-raise?)
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19:02:25 <ais523> fizzie: the advanced unity settings are accessible via compizconfig settings manager, which isn't installed by default
19:02:31 <ais523> but I'm not sure whether that's one of them
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19:03:07 <fizzie> I think I'll just try to live without it.
19:03:44 <fizzie> At least MATLAB -- The Language of Technical Computing -- runs okay. Though there's a vaguely Ribbon-y toolbar in it now.
19:03:59 <ais523> fizzie: compizconfig settings manager > general options > focus & raise behaviour
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19:04:13 <ais523> you have "click to focus", "raise on click", and "auto-raise" options
19:04:38 <fizzie> I guess click-to-focus without raise-on-click would've been okay.
19:04:45 <fizzie> (Sadly, I already shut the computer down.)
19:04:53 <ais523> yeah, and then you can keybind something else to raise if you want to be able to change which window is on top
19:05:35 <ais523> the other things is that you can lock windows as topmost using the window menu, that's what I normally do; the problem is that the window menu doesn't exist by default
19:05:50 <ais523> and to turn it on you need to go into an entirely different set of settings
19:07:24 <elliott> fizzie: did you forget a ™
19:07:48 <fizzie> Apparently what I forgot was a ®.
19:07:55 <ais523> fizzie: btw, what's your usecase for focusing without raising a window?
19:08:08 <ais523> I've always wondered why people did that
19:08:20 <ais523> and assumed it was something to do with typing into forms
19:08:55 <fizzie> ais523: I've got a piece of MATLAB® code that expects a keypress in the command window to iterate a single step, then replots the (existing) figure windows, and I wanted to keep stepping while the image windows were floating on top of the command window.
19:09:23 <ais523> I'd do that by pinning the image windows as topmost, with my setup, but sadly that /also/ needs customization :(
19:09:40 <ais523> or if I was feeling particularly inane, making the command window transparent and leaving the image window behind it
19:10:42 <fizzie> I'd normally do it e.g. by floating the image windows and leaving the main MATLAB window on the tiling layer -- well, OTOH there's focus-follows-mouse in my normal setup, so it's not an issue in any case -- but the laptop's Linux side is a bit... between configurations.
19:12:49 <fizzie> Also curious: the "Displays" settings thing only had the laptop's native resolution in the drop-down; nothing smaller. I'm hoping it'll play nice with the projector, which certainly won't do 1080p. 1024x768, maybe.
19:14:01 <ais523> fizzie: if you attach more than one screen it works out a common resolution
19:15:15 <fizzie> It had a mirror-screens checkbox, though grayed out at the time.
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19:18:18 <ais523> fizzie: you need multiple screens for it to work
19:20:13 <fizzie> Oh, a curious thing, too: recent nvidia binary drivers report the actual monitors and stuff in "xrandr -q".
19:21:14 <fizzie> I don't know if it can be actually configurated over xrandr, but at least the information query is now sane. It used to just return a single output with the bounding box size, and made-up refresh rates to differentiate between modes of the same (combined) size.
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19:55:56 <kmc> USA postal stamps say "USA FIRST-CLASS FOREVER"
19:55:57 <kmc> real subtle
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19:56:26 <Taneb> elliott, first year of the fortress is almost over
19:58:04 <fizzie> Ours say SUOMI FINLAND 1 luokka/klass or something similar. No mention about the foreverness. I guess it's implied when there's no monetary amount.
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19:59:05 <Vorpal> <kmc> USA postal stamps say "USA FIRST-CLASS FOREVER" <-- really? .... wow
19:59:26 <Bike> it's because they're permanently valued stamps (nominally)
19:59:52 <kmc> meaning they are always good for first-class mail, rather than having a nominal dollar value
20:01:39 <lambdabot> tell provides: tell ask messages messages? clear-messages
20:06:59 <zzo38> Why do many hotels require a keycard in the elevator? They try to increase security, but actually it reduces security. Some also require it in the stairs, which is against the fire code, although some don't (so when I didn't have the keycard, I went up the stairs to the 16th floor to knock on their door).
20:07:42 <Vorpal> zzo38, I have never seen that
20:08:05 <zzo38> Some allow going to any floor with the keycard, while some only allow to go to your own floor. Going only to your own floor makes it much easier for thieves to get in.
20:08:35 <Vorpal> also I don't like the new fangled key card concept, A proper physical key was much less annoying to fit in a pocket. Also what would happen if the power is out? Can't use the key card then...
20:08:56 <olsner> obviously all doors open if the power fails
20:09:10 <Bike> hotels go all lord of the flies immediately
20:09:27 <oerjan> Bike: not the shining?
20:09:34 <Bike> i haven't seen the shining, so no
20:09:49 <oerjan> let's aim for a combination.
20:10:00 <Bike> HEEEEERE'S PIGGY or something
20:10:11 <zzo38> Vorpal: Maybe they have a backup? You may be correct, though.
20:10:23 <zzo38> The point I was making is something else though.
20:10:29 <oerjan> also piggy dies by begin pushed from the 98th floor
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20:11:56 <oerjan> Vorpal: they might have batteries in the doors, perhaps?
20:12:07 <Taneb> I don't think I've ever been in a hotel with more than about 6 floors
20:16:07 <fizzie> I keep hotel key cards in the wallet.
20:16:11 <fizzie> While staying at hotels, I mean, I don't generally wander around with random hotel keycards, that would be kinda suspicious.
20:16:13 <oerjan> i recall when i was a wee one and we were visiting Bodø (a regional center in northern norway, but not really large) we made a point of visiting the SAS hotel there because it was something like 10 stories and the tallest building in the county or something. and take the elevator to the top. so i've been at least in that high a hotel.
20:16:35 <fizzie> oerjan: Did you need a keycard in the elevator?
20:16:50 <oerjan> doubtful, this was the 70s i think.
20:17:32 <Taneb> I've been pretty high in an office building
20:17:40 <oerjan> since then i've been in the CN tower in toronto, although i don't think that's a hotel.
20:17:47 <fizzie> Taneb: Is that altogether legal?
20:18:30 <Taneb> Yeah, the 88th floor is probably the highest I've been
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20:18:59 <elliott> oerjan has been to other countries?
20:19:13 -!- Zerker_ has joined.
20:19:22 <Taneb> Wait, it wasn't an office building
20:19:38 <oerjan> fizzie: i assume one of the points of the keycards, at least the electronic ones, is that they stop working when you check out so that it doesn't matter much if one is stolen.
20:19:49 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i recall when i was a wee one and we were visiting Bodø (a regional center in northern norway, but not really large) we made a point of visiting the SAS hotel there because it was something like 10 stories and the tallest building in the county or something. and take the elevator to the top. so i've been at least in that high a hotel. <-- 10 stories the largest? Wow
20:19:56 <Vorpal> I didn't realize Norway was that small
20:20:13 <Vorpal> <oerjan> doubtful, this was the 70s i think. <-- man, how does it feel being that old? XD
20:20:14 <fizzie> Sometimes -- at least in my SimTower games -- a building may have more than one type of thing in it.
20:20:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: the nordland county doesn't really have any cities
20:20:38 <Taneb> I used to play SimTower!
20:20:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a Sim game where you run a skyscraper.
20:20:51 <oerjan> in troms i guess tromsø might count as one
20:20:54 <zzo38> The Vancouver Hotel used to be the tallest building in Vancouver. Now it is the smallest building.
20:20:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, right. How many inhabitants are there in Oslo btw? (I assume that is the largest city?)
20:20:59 <Taneb> It's a game published but not developed by Maxis or something
20:21:13 <oerjan> but otherwise northern norway is very sparsely inhabited even compared to the rest of norway
20:21:27 <metasepia> Formerly Christiania The capital and largest city of Norway, in the southeast part of the country at the head of the Oslo Fjord, a deep inlet of the Skagerrak.
20:21:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: half a million or so? i don't recall
20:21:43 <Vorpal> oerjan, so about half the size of Stockholm then
20:21:48 <Vorpal> or a little more than half
20:21:54 <fizzie> Taneb: There was some kind of a... maybe vaguely undocumented trick (modifier keys?) so that your lobby floor could be two or three floors high. It made fancy escalators then.
20:22:00 <oerjan> it used to be 400000 way back, but it keeps growing
20:22:09 <Vorpal> is there a wolfram alpha bot?
20:22:30 <Vorpal> would be useful: !wa inhabitants of Oslo
20:22:32 <oerjan> elliott: you may note i'm implicitly claiming having been to canada, there
20:22:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: It would be against the Terms of Services.
20:22:46 <zzo38> I prefer to use the stairs but nobody else I go with wants to use the stairs so we use the elevator instead.
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20:22:55 <fizzie> Speaking of floors and legality: I think it's kind of funny that the grocery stores underground near the (Helsinki) railway station have always stayed open without any respect to rules and regulations that govern the opening hours of shops elsewhere. It's like, underground, the Laws of Man yield to the Laws of Nature.
20:23:10 <Vorpal> zzo38, what is wrong with using the elevator?
20:23:11 <elliott> oerjan: well when i round everyone up we can go find out if canada really exists
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20:23:30 <zzo38> Vorpal: I just prefer to use the stairs.
20:23:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, are there rules forbidding shops from being open 24/7?
20:23:59 <olsner> zzo38: you should go by yourself more often so you can choose your mode of transportation freely
20:24:06 <boily> have you all proven canada's existence beyond ottawa lately, or is canada's status still limited to that city?
20:24:09 <oerjan> Vorpal: mind you there are taller buildings than that in trondheim. the university math building has 13 floors.
20:24:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: clist: not found
20:24:38 <olsner> boily: nothing says ottawa is in canada
20:25:21 <Vorpal> olsner, o<tab> fails me yet again
20:26:02 <Bike> i thought two characters was standard
20:26:48 <Vorpal> Bike, I generally don't need it since I have "tab to last speak first" + I generally notice the difference between nicks, But olsner and oerjan are both the same length.
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20:27:46 <Vorpal> Bike, I would notice the difference between Bike and boily for example: Look very different. oerjan and olsner look pretty similar though.
20:28:01 <olsner> hint: it's the letters that differ
20:28:04 <Bike> sorry i'm illiterate and can't read what you said
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20:28:28 <boily> they should rename themselves oshort and olong, therefore they'd have a different length nick.
20:30:34 <olsner> > length "oolong" == length "oshort"
20:31:13 <olsner> or maybe we should be tall and short instead?
20:32:19 <olsner> (wild guess: we're both average height)
20:32:21 <lambdabot> May the clap make ye incapable of Cracking Jenny's Tea Cup.
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20:33:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: I haven't been keeping track on the rules and regulations, and they've switched them around. But at least at some point there were rules, and they somehow depended on the size of the store in question.
20:33:13 <elliott> Bike: no it's not the c list
20:33:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ølist: not found
20:33:30 <fizzie> Also http://www.eeggs.com/items/359.html SimTower 2- or 3-story lobby just look at it.
20:33:31 <Bike> I thought that was the list for antarctica.
20:34:06 <Bike> or is that just everyone. is everyone going to antarctica.
20:34:47 <olsner> no roads lead to antarctica, but somehow everyone ends up there anyway
20:35:02 <tswett> As someone who's stuck in Antarctica right now, I agree.
20:35:10 <fizzie> http://www.angelfire.com/wi2/zell/simtower/guide.html also there's a picture on what escalators and stairs will look like in the SuperLobby.
20:35:11 <tswett> Man. This winter is going to suck.
20:35:17 <fizzie> I suppose it could've been mentioned in the manual.
20:36:24 <fizzie> I also remember that thing that you can build more lobbies on floors 25, 50 and 75.
20:36:33 <fizzie> (Those can't be extra-high, I don't think.)
20:37:11 <fizzie> Or maybe it's every 15th floor.
20:37:28 <Vorpal> <tswett> Man. This winter is going to suck. <-- speaking of that, it snowed the day before yesterday
20:37:35 <Vorpal> or wait, was it yesterday
20:37:43 <Vorpal> didn't actually stay on the ground
20:37:45 <fizzie> It snowed here yesterday.
20:37:51 <Vorpal> but yeah, this winter is blergh
20:37:54 <olsner> Vorpal: this being sweden, it probably snowed both of those days?
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20:38:09 <Vorpal> I'm not up in the north
20:38:14 <tswett> Snow here always sticks.
20:38:22 <Vorpal> olsner, but this is one slow winter
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20:38:35 <olsner> I've been able to survive without a winter jacket for several days now, so it seems to be letting go
20:38:56 <tswett> It snows most in the middle of summer (i.e. December). In the winter, it's usually too cold for snow.
20:39:01 <fizzie> My current bus ticket expires on April 26th, I was hoping for snowless roads by then, I don't do the whole bicycle-in-a-snow thing the other people do, it sounds a bit too sporty.
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20:39:15 <Vorpal> olsner, I have an early spring/late autumn jacket now
20:39:36 <Vorpal> tswett, where is that?
20:39:50 <olsner> too cold for snow? does it rain CO2 or something instead?
20:40:01 <Vorpal> tswett, I thought you were in UK?
20:40:03 <tswett> No, there just isn't any precipitation.
20:40:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, if you have one that is
20:40:49 <Vorpal> tswett, seriously are you on Antarctica?
20:40:50 <tswett> Vorpal: nope. I was born in Australia, and then I moved to Finland for school, and I was planning to go on a vacation to Antarctica but now it turns out I'm stuck here.
20:41:12 <Vorpal> tswett, here being Antarctica?
20:41:33 <elliott> Bike: you fail to understand
20:41:41 <elliott> Bike: the same people who go to antarctica are also going to canada.
20:41:44 <tswett> Apparently my student visa in Finland has expired and then Australia no longer considers me a citizen.
20:42:00 <Vorpal> tswett, no longer a citizen? Why?
20:42:09 <pikhq> tswett: Does that make you stateless?
20:42:10 <Taneb> So... you are not a citizen of anywhere?
20:42:13 <Vorpal> And you are not joking?
20:42:16 <tswett> Yeah, what pikhq said.
20:42:44 <tswett> I guess there's some legal thing about this. Like.
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20:43:21 <pikhq> Congrats on having an easy way to European citizenship.
20:43:22 <olsner> send a mail to the mayor of hexham, maybe they'll let you in
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20:43:46 <tswett> My parents have never been Australian citizens, but having been born in Australia, I was a citizen there, but in order to maintain my citizenship status, I couldn't leave the country for two years continuously before the age of 23.
20:44:04 <Bike> elliott: Some kind of `calist? Are you out of your mind?
20:44:11 <tswett> I didn't actually know that until I'd already been in Finland for three years.
20:44:15 <pikhq> tswett: Which nation are they citizens of?
20:44:17 <tswett> pikhq: oh? What's that?
20:44:26 <Taneb> tswett, you have much more of a claim to Australian citizenship than I do
20:44:30 <pikhq> Oh, you're not stateless then.
20:44:41 <Taneb> And yet, I have an Australian citizenship
20:44:46 <elliott> Bike: they are all also going to wherever the people after them on the list live, to pick them up.
20:44:58 <Taneb> My dad's Australian
20:45:02 <pikhq> By the way, you've got back taxes.
20:45:07 <pikhq> You're an American citizen.
20:45:14 <elliott> Bike: I'll probably start with Taneb and then PH, because they are nearest. you may be close to last.
20:45:35 <tswett> ...I see. So what happens if I go there and I can't pay my taxes?
20:45:43 <Taneb> elliott, if you get me first the universe may end
20:45:50 <tswett> Hopefully they'd just garnish my income or something and not throw me in jail...
20:45:51 <Taneb> Which is either stupid or a brilliant plan
20:45:57 <olsner> maybe they cancel your citizenship and export you
20:46:04 <Bike> elliott: so it's like a chain huh
20:46:06 <pikhq> tswett: It's something like that.
20:46:07 <elliott> Taneb: that is okay. what will be worth doing after the trip, after all?
20:46:24 <pikhq> Basically, the US taxes the income of its citizens. Regardless of the jurisdiction where they made that income.
20:46:26 <Gregor> I don't think there are any circumstances under which the US will terminate citizenship. Well, other than by request.
20:46:45 <pikhq> Yes, it's actually really tricky to terminate US citizenship.
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20:46:54 <pikhq> You have to be *really trying*.
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20:47:10 <fizzie> Gregor: What if you do something really stupid, and they're just that embarrassed to have you one of their citizens.
20:47:20 <Gregor> fizzie: Then you become President.
20:47:30 <pikhq> But yeah. The US does jus sanguinis. You have always been an American citizen.
20:47:36 <Bike> fizzie america has people literally going to libya to shoot at people we have pretty high standards for stupidity
20:47:55 <Taneb> pikhq, my gran was born in California, but never claimed citizenship
20:47:59 <Taneb> How does that affect me?
20:48:00 <tswett> I wonder if I should actually move, though? I actually really like the people here.
20:48:09 <pikhq> Taneb: You too are a citizen, but that is tricky to prove.
20:48:15 <shachaf> Taneb: When are you moving to CA?
20:48:17 <tswett> (This is all a joke, btw; I assume everyone already knows that.)
20:48:25 <tswett> The climate is... yeah, a bit problematic.
20:48:42 <Bike> In UK secondary schools do you have something like a major field of study, like in post-secondary?
20:48:54 <olsner> tswett: how far back does the joke go?
20:49:08 <Bike> Because this form is asking me for my high school major and i'm baffled.
20:49:14 <Bike> baffled and american
20:49:15 <tswett> But living here really makes people feel closer to each other. And lots of them are scientific researchers, so that's really cool.
20:49:30 <Gregor> US citizenship is viral :3
20:49:37 <pikhq> Taneb: If you're serious about it you may need to find a lawyer to get shit in order.
20:49:44 * boily pampers his canadian passport
20:49:49 <Taneb> pikhq, I... don't really want to be a US citizen
20:49:56 <Gregor> If you've ever spoken with a US citizen, you're a US citizen.
20:49:57 <pikhq> That said, you basically will just be demonstrating that you already *have* the citizenship.
20:49:59 <tswett> olsner: everything I've said so far is part of the joke.
20:50:06 <Bike> are you sure? you get semi-exclusive rights to be dronestriked
20:50:17 <Gregor> If you're aware of the existence of the United States, you're a US citizen.
20:50:27 <pikhq> Taneb: But come on, you could actually vote for the President. :P
20:50:31 <Taneb> `learn tswett is livin' it up with the penguins
20:50:35 <shachaf> Gregor: Only if you're also not aware of the existence of any other country.
20:50:43 <Taneb> pikhq, I don't need a third citizenship!
20:50:53 <pikhq> Taneb: Sorry, de jure you have one.
20:51:00 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, apparently!
20:51:07 <boily> what is the theoretical maximum citizenship number you can achieve?
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20:51:08 <fizzie> Wikipedia seems to suggest that there's actually some conditions that apply, depending on if one or two parents were citizens, and whether they were married or not.
20:51:20 <pikhq> Actually, oh god. If you're feeling crazy you could just fly to America and apply for a social security card.
20:51:23 <tswett> pikhq: wait. So because Taneb's grandmother was born in CA, the US considers Taneb to owe taxes on everything he/she earns?
20:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> despite the fact that /none/ of my family have lived in the republic
20:51:33 <tswett> You can "just fly to America"?
20:51:45 <pikhq> tswett: He could enter on one of his passports.
20:51:46 <Taneb> tswett, us Hexhamers all have wings
20:52:09 <pikhq> And then ignore the visa requirements because he's a legally residing citizen.
20:52:17 <tswett> Pronounced /ˈhɛksəmər/.
20:52:20 <pikhq> tswett: Unless Taneb's mother/father lost citizenship, yes he's a citizen.
20:52:42 <pikhq> Or Taneb's grandmother.
20:52:49 <tswett> pikhq: so, does that mean that you're a citizen as long as any of your ancestors have been citizens, and nothing weird has happened in the middle?
20:52:57 <fizzie> Taneb: Did either of your parents even ever live in the US?
20:53:08 <pikhq> Roughly. I think there's a couple extra rules, but yeah.
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20:53:24 <Taneb> My gran did until she was 3, I think
20:53:30 <Bike> I feel like this is the most ridiculous discussion I've seen in this channel.
20:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> surely by now that includes some massive fraction of the human population
20:53:40 <fizzie> ("If both parents are U.S. citizens, the child is a citizen if either of the parents has ever had a residence in the U.S. prior to the child's birth; If one parent is a U.S. citizen and the other parent is a U.S. national, the child is a citizen if the U.S. citizen parent has lived in the U.S. for a continuous period of at least one year prior to the child's birth; If one parent is a U.S. ...
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20:53:47 <fizzie> ... citizen and the other parent is not, the child is a citizen if; the U.S. citizen parent has been "physically present"[7] in the U.S. before the child's birth for a total period of at least five years, and; at least two of those five years were after the U.S. citizen parent's fourteenth birthday."
20:53:49 <Taneb> Looking it up now, and I am probably not a US citizen
20:53:52 <fizzie> And that was just the part for children born in wedlock.
20:53:58 <elliott> Bike: you're in washington right
20:54:00 <fizzie> It doesn't sound all that straightforward.
20:54:06 <pikhq> Argh, yeah, it's nutsier.
20:54:08 <Bike> It's pretty far from Antarctica I'm afraid.
20:54:15 <pikhq> Taneb: Very specific details needed it sounds like.
20:54:22 <tswett> Good thing my citizenship situation is really simple.
20:54:42 <pikhq> Taneb: Did either of your parents live in the US?
20:55:00 <Taneb> Only the UK, Australia, and Pakistan
20:55:08 <tswett> My parents are US citizens who have always lived in US-controlled places, and so am I. I've also only ever been outside the country once, for, like, part of a day.
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20:55:40 <pikhq> If you really wanted to be your grandmother could probably sponsor you for immigration. :P
20:55:58 <fizzie> "Wait, wait, Antarctica is part of USA?"
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20:56:17 <olsner> tswett: are you sure it was canada?
20:56:41 <Bike> secretly, i have an antarctican citizenship
20:56:41 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it was Canada.
20:56:48 <tswett> Might have been Mexico, but probably Canada.
20:57:07 <olsner> maybe it was just disneyland
20:57:09 <tswett> But no, it was definitely Canada.
20:57:42 <tswett> I'm in one of those funny places where if I want to go to Canada, the shortest way is to go east-southeast.
20:58:02 <Bike> New England? I'm sorry.
20:58:27 <pikhq> Hmm, right, you would've actually just said "south" thin.
20:58:36 <Bike> oh, or alaska i suppose.
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20:58:58 <tswett> I'm reasonably close to New York, though.
20:59:09 <Bike> In which case I'd tell you I'm sorry, but you'd be dead by the time you got my message
20:59:14 <tswett> It's only two states away, if you consider Ontario a state.
20:59:36 <pikhq> 'Fraid I consider Canada a state.
21:00:04 <tswett> I'm not sure whether or not I live in the convex hull of Canada.
21:01:15 <tswett> Okay, I do live in the convex hull of Canada.
21:01:34 <tswett> If you draw a line from Victoria to Windsor, I'm pretty sure I'm north of that line.
21:01:53 <Bike> i'm pretty sure i'd notice if i lived in a hull
21:02:35 <fizzie> The line *is* pretty curvy on a Google-Maps-projection map, though, if you want to draw a great-circle line.
21:03:14 <fizzie> The straight-in-that-projection line would've pretty much put the whole of North Dakota inside the famed Convex Hull of Canada.
21:03:23 <btiffin> I used to sleep in the bow, not from off the hull, curled up on top of wet fishing nets when I a was a wee lad. Very comfortable bouncing in rough swells.
21:04:03 <tswett> Oh yeah, Google-Maps-projection lines aren't the same as great circle lines.
21:04:16 <tswett> What's that map projection that maps great circles onto lines?
21:04:38 <fizzie> I don't know, but Google Maps' "ruler" tool draws great-circle lines on their map.
21:04:54 <tswett> Since when does Google Maps have a ruler tool...
21:04:59 <btiffin> Hull was too English though, so when the world amalgamated it's cities, Hull become Gatineau
21:05:00 <fizzie> It might be a tool that needs to be toggled on from some settings thing.
21:05:29 <fizzie> When turned on, it's right there in the lower-left corner next to the scale.
21:05:55 <fizzie> Yes, it's one of the Maps Labs things.
21:06:18 <fizzie> (Bottom of the left sidebar, "Distance Measurement Tool". It's very handy. It lets you draw polylines and reports their length.)
21:07:46 <tswett> Okay, so I still live in the convex hull of Canada.
21:08:59 <Taneb> tswett, move to Hull
21:09:07 <tswett> Is Hull in the convex hull of Canada?
21:09:27 <Taneb> Nah, it's somewhere in the UK
21:09:48 <btiffin> I think we're actually pretty far North, relative to Windsor
21:10:05 <kmc> there's a Hull in massachusetts
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21:13:18 <olsner> Ottawa is apparently about 13 degrees south of here
21:14:27 <Taneb> And 10 degrees south of here
21:15:17 <kmc> i guess most place names in England are duplicated in Massachusetts
21:15:41 <elliott> massachusetts is pretend england
21:15:41 <Taneb> kmc, I'd be highly surprised if it's even a third
21:15:42 <fizzie> I think I'm about 60.2 degrees north of the equator.
21:15:59 <kmc> "Hull is the worst place to live in the UK" -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/4136342.stm
21:16:41 <olsner> sounds like that'd be close to the southernmost part of finland
21:17:14 <fizzie> olsner: Most of Finland, as measured by population, is. (Well, maybe not quite "most".)
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21:17:57 <btiffin> Yep, we Canadians have all amassed right up on the US border. 90% of our population with 200 km. They have a nicer fireplace to warm fingers with.
21:18:32 <kmc> canadian invasion O:
21:19:21 <fizzie> I can only get generic "center coordinates" of countries from W|A, I don't know how to tell it to compute the centroid of people living here.
21:19:26 <Taneb> Canada is perhaps the country I've been second-closest to without ever visiting
21:20:52 <fizzie> I don't think I've been closer to Canada than the Seattle airport. Though I'm not sure what sort of route the plane took.
21:21:31 <btiffin> Crap load of space just waiting for global warming to catch up.
21:21:32 <tromp_> i lived in various parts of canada
21:22:17 <fizzie> If this flightmapper.net line is accurate (though it looks like a straight line), maybe I've flown over Canada. I guess that doesn't count as visiting?
21:23:07 <tromp_> my same named cousin has lived there all his life
21:23:14 <btiffin> I think we still parcel out 500 acres (200 hectares) of land for anyone willing to stake a claim and work land for resources. Though I do believe you have to pass a sanity test first now.
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21:39:13 <oerjan> <tswett> (This is all a joke, btw; I assume everyone already knows that.) <-- i'm _not_ betting on Vorpal hth
21:40:04 <olsner> I'm still struggling to figure out exactly what part of tswett is a joke
21:40:05 <kmc> Vorpal: key cards are a lot more convenient for the hotel though
21:40:13 <shachaf> I'M BETTING IT ALL THAT VORPAL IS REAL
21:40:19 <kmc> they can reprogram them for every guest, so you can't just steal a card and sneak in later
21:40:28 <kmc> shachaf: bet it all on black
21:41:32 <fizzie> kmc: Sadly, [insert that thing about electronic hotel locks that you can program to do whatever with inexpensive hardware and that are in like half the hotels anywhere].
21:41:37 <shachaf> or should i call you........james/brian
21:43:20 <fizzie> That thing with an Arduino in it, I forget which lock it was.
21:43:43 <fizzie> http://daeken.com/blackhat-paper
21:43:43 <tswett> Gregor: explain to olsner exactly what part of me is a joke.
21:43:49 <fizzie> I guess that's the thing I was thinking of.
21:43:53 <shachaf> monqy: is your fathers name also monqy
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21:45:16 <olsner> monqy: is your own name monqy?
21:46:16 <Taneb> Trivia: the e in Ngevd either doesn't stand for anything or stands for "Eliot".
21:46:26 <Taneb> I am sorry to have mislead you.
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21:46:52 <oerjan> <tswett> Canada. <-- aha now i understand this canada thing; it's something the us invented so people can claim to have been outside the country!
21:47:26 <fizzie> AIUI, the next-to-US parts of Mexico are kind of used for the same purpose.
21:47:50 <fizzie> (Perhaps it depends on if you're in the north or the south?)
21:48:32 <olsner> I think canada is where you go to avoid getting drafted, and mexico is where you go when you accidentally kill someone and have to avoid the law
21:48:56 <kmc> mexico is where you go to get extra drunk if you're a college student in southern california
21:49:29 <kmc> border towns typically have a seedy aspect, especially when one country is much richer
21:50:07 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bordering_countries_with_greatest_relative_differences_in_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita is an interesting list
21:50:51 <Bike> yemen can't get a break
21:50:55 <kmc> list of all lists that do not contain self-referential humor about lists
21:51:10 <Bike> macau and hong kong are countries, huh
21:51:13 <shachaf> you should make a program that injects bad facts into wikipedia pages when you fetch them over http
21:51:28 <kmc> DR Congo makes the list with practically all of its neighbors
21:51:52 <fizzie> Yay, Finland/Russia made the list. (Though at #121 it's maybe nothing to write home about.)
21:52:04 <olsner> shachaf: much like that program that keeps inserting references to canada?
21:52:07 <Bike> "the British Overseas Territories of Akrotiri and Dhekelia located in the island of Cyprus" how do europeans even do anything, you must cross a border on your way out of bed
21:52:12 <oerjan> <tswett> What's that map projection that maps great circles onto lines? <-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomonic_projection
21:52:22 <fizzie> Norway/Russia is like #79.
21:52:29 <kmc> i think before i looked at this list, my guess for #1 was the Korean border
21:52:30 <kmc> but it's only #3
21:53:01 <kmc> I guess it's a trap for Westerners who think "Africa is poor" because while Africa is poor, some parts of Africa are way poorer than others
21:53:29 <kmc> I don't know if the Zimbabwe numbers can even be trusted
21:53:45 <Bike> i think i can trust that zimbabwe's had a shitty economic time, though
21:53:47 <kmc> generally a problem when your currency hyperinflates and people start using candy and fast food coupons instead
21:54:10 <kmc> seriously, the fast food restaurants there have issued their own payment chits (which are decently well produced, they have holograms and stuff)
21:54:28 <kmc> this for making change in quantities smaller than the smallest available USD / ZAR / etc. bills
21:54:32 <fizzie> #69 is probably the highest up of the borders I've crossed. :/ (And it's only there because Liechtenstein is so silly.)
21:54:55 <kmc> i've crossed #65
21:55:59 <fizzie> Heh, Liechtenstein leads the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
21:56:58 <fizzie> There's a nice list (well, template) of lists of countries by different kinds of GDP rankings.
21:57:39 <boily> ~eval 50565 / 47882
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21:57:43 <kmc> Lesotho is an enclave within a country five times as rich
21:57:44 <boily> ~eval 50565 / 47882
21:57:46 <kmc> that must be weird
21:58:45 <kmc> Albania: Bet It All On Bunkers
21:58:51 <oerjan> <shachaf> I'M BETTING IT ALL THAT VORPAL IS REAL <-- i think you may have misinterpreted my non-bet, hth
21:59:11 <fizzie> There's no "List of bordering countries with smallest relative differences in GDP (PPP) per capita".
22:02:23 <btiffin> Someone on LinkedIn just pondered about unlambda in OpenCOBOL. Off to learn something new. Tarball has a .c implementation, so that part is linked already, but now to figure out how to pass values
22:02:44 <fizzie> Germany/Belgium has a ratio of about 1.008 (with the CIA World Factbook GDP/PPP numbers), that's quite close to 1.
22:02:49 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jean_Louis_Th%C3%A9odore_G%C3%A9ricault_001.jpg just pasting this here because it's my favorite painting ever
22:03:19 <fizzie> Bike: Are those the Four Horsemen of the Apoclopolypse?
22:03:33 <kmc> looks like 1 long horse
22:03:37 <shachaf> Bike: um i demand my paintings to have unwavering bands of light
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22:03:47 <shachaf> is that that thing on the right
22:04:56 <fizzie> Horseusine: a luxury horse with a compartment for the passengers and a separate compartment for the driver.
22:05:03 <shachaf> but what is a pole doing in epsom instead of poland
22:05:46 <shachaf> kmc: Did mosh get accepted to SoC?
22:06:24 <shachaf> imo add a special no-google-employee clause to the license
22:06:41 <shachaf> Oh, you already said in the channel.
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22:12:31 <oerjan> <fizzie> There's no "List of bordering countries with smallest relative differences in GDP (PPP) per capita". <-- for some reason some of them were listed in the text of the other list article, though
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22:14:15 <btiffin> Lucky anagram, unlambdacobol, A Bland Coulomb, name chosen for me. lambdacobol would have been Ballad Combo
22:16:25 <oerjan> btiffin: i'm sure writing an unlambda interpreter directly in cobol cannot be worse than in intercal
22:19:08 <kmc> intercal is basically a parody of cobol right?
22:19:31 <olsner> maybe more of fortran?
22:19:50 <oerjan> a parody of several old languages, several of which i probably don't know?
22:20:22 <oerjan> it's intended goal is to be different from all of them, anyhow
22:20:33 <Bike> i don't remember intercal being much like fortran, from what little i know of either
22:20:49 <oerjan> Bike: well it has arrays.
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22:40:03 <shachaf> kmc: You could go be a mentor for haskell.org instead!
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22:45:53 <Regis__> how about one that mimics some animal
22:47:27 <elliott> yeah like a brainfuck derivative that mimics monkeys or cows
22:47:34 <elliott> highly innovative language design imo
22:48:20 <shachaf> elliott: uhhhh monkeys don't say ook
22:48:23 <shachaf> i'm p. sure i read that somewhere
22:48:58 <zzo38> Perhaps there is a better way than like that anyways, though
22:51:02 <btiffin> callabc.cob just compiled and evaluated hello.unl, A Bland Coulomb, phase 1 complete, now for the data passing parts. Which means learning wtf unlambda is.
22:52:23 <monqy> elliott: um probably he means like homespring
22:52:36 <monqy> elliott: because who would in this day and age even consider making another ook :]
22:53:40 <oerjan> shachaf: apes do, though
22:54:03 <shachaf> oerjan: well obviously we do
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22:57:36 <Bike_> hey i like animals
22:57:42 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:57:51 <Regis__> what if we use a lang from lord of the rings
22:58:09 <Bike> Well then you wouldn't be making it, you'd be pretending you're Tolkien.
22:58:15 <elliott> bike seizes the opportunity to apply his knowledge
22:58:34 <shachaf> QUIZ: is finnish an esoland y/n
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22:59:10 <shachaf> i guess finland would be the esoland
22:59:15 <Bike> for example, you could make a duck-like esolang, that defiles conspecial corpses
23:00:49 <Bike> i don't think estonia is an animal, per se
23:01:20 <shachaf> estonians more like esotnians
23:01:40 <Bike> quiz: are the latvian countries a ring species
23:02:12 <shachaf> QUIZ: is norway exists imo no
23:03:39 <Regis__> how about brainfuck with threads
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23:11:02 <monqy> how about dont even think about making a brainfuck derivative because unless you really know what you're doing it will invariably be bad
23:11:24 <pikhq> Oh, meh. Everyone makes a Brainfuck derivative.
23:13:21 <shachaf> monqy: um what about there once was a fish named fred "even amateurs can make valuable contributions to the field"
23:13:54 <shachaf> monqy: how can i be more like you
23:14:32 <shachaf> oh no i just got a youtube subscriber
23:15:01 <monqy> make a youtube account
23:15:13 <monqy> /made? i thought i had typed made but noooooo
23:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> so is this some well-known thing that i'm late to the party for
23:19:55 <btiffin> Regis__: indented bf. indent = [ outdent = ]
23:24:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: slis: not found
23:24:09 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:25:47 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: this is cute
23:26:18 <monqy> it doesnt work very well
23:26:43 <nooodl> i love when it doesn't work
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23:33:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://labs.echonest.com/Uploader/index.html?trid=TRVHPII13AFF43D495 hahaha
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23:43:52 <Gregor> Really, Indiana? Thunderstorms? For realsies? Right when I'm doing laundry?
23:44:54 <oerjan> wait Gregor is in indiana now?
23:45:36 <elliott> he always has been hasnt he
23:46:16 <oerjan> he used to be in oregon although i do remember he left that. i thought he was on the east coast. isn't indiana sort of midwest?
23:46:47 <monqy> purdue is in indiana(i think?? that's what 'IN' stands for right) sooooooooo
23:47:40 <oerjan> hm i'm probably confusing with someone else. who here was in georgia?
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23:54:14 <elliott> wow i didnt think this one would be ahrd
23:54:39 <elliott> cake prophet??? i meant cake prophet
23:54:40 <oerjan> kallisti: elliott is trying to confuse me!
23:55:01 <oerjan> i make up for it by remembering your current nick
23:58:00 <oerjan> elliott: what actually happened was i didn't connect your answer to my question but instead with reddit cakes, so i scrambled to check if it was my reddit birthday (it's not)
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00:00:07 <oerjan> elliott: although you wouldn't know since by what i see you haven't been there in six months. unless you have another account? but then i would be recalling recent r/haskell comments, i expect.
00:01:19 * oerjan finds u/elliott which seems completely unused but six years old.
00:01:22 <elliott> i read /r/haskell (and /r/roguelikes though that's mostly to laugh at people saying silly things)
00:01:30 <elliott> nothing else and i never comment any more
00:02:06 <elliott> well I also laugh at people saying silly things in /r/haskell
00:03:01 <oerjan> well i hope you have more interesting things to do instead.
00:03:20 <Bike> what could be more interesting than reddit *laugh track*
00:03:55 <oerjan> Bike: i'm sorry that needs to be a link to quickmeme
00:04:01 <elliott> thankfully /r/haskell is getting worse
00:04:07 <elliott> so I may be able to quit entirely
00:05:06 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure if quickmeme is still prevalent, since i stopped browsing the largest subreddits
00:06:06 <oerjan> i still have r/science there, but lately i've rarely got around to it since i browse my subreddits mostly smallest first
00:07:16 <oerjan> and r/programming but i don't think that's very memy. or maybe i'm just mind ignoring.
00:07:57 <Bike> pop quiz: elliott, name something that isn't awful
00:08:02 <oerjan> elliott: i've realized i mostly just click the haskell links in it
00:08:26 <Bike> oh i only have nightmares
00:08:30 <oerjan> it was pretty tiny though
00:09:53 <oerjan> r/physics and r/math are probably my favorite intermediate size ones
00:11:31 <oerjan> i find r/askhistorians nearly as addictive as tvtropes once i start browsing it, but it's big so i rarely do
00:14:41 <oerjan> what's wrong with mezzacotta today :( ... oh there it finally loaded
00:16:19 <Regis__> what about a lang without global variables
00:16:32 <Regis__> you have to pass to a function everything you want it to know
00:16:46 <oerjan> Regis__: welcome to haskell
00:17:09 <Regis__> the way i pictured it it'd be imperative
00:17:31 <Bike> imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try
00:19:27 <doesthiswork> this is old news but the fact that a function can have a different function hidden inside it is fascinating to me
00:19:41 <TeruFSX> that'd be a pure dataflow language
00:20:27 <doesthiswork> like when you only care about wether a number is even '+' is equivalent to iff
00:21:50 <oerjan> doesthiswork: ah algebraic quotients
00:25:24 <Regis__> http://pastebin.com/UzKjsgPd
00:29:07 <monqy> oerjan has it right
00:29:54 <Regis__> all functions are loops, except the builtins
00:30:48 <Regis__> so you have to tell it when to stop
00:31:23 <Sgeo> Regis__, Newspeak?
00:32:03 <Sgeo> http://newspeaklanguage.org/
00:32:11 <Sgeo> Language based on Smalltalk that tries to have no global state
00:34:10 <doesthiswork> Regis__: could you walk me through this program?
00:34:26 <Sgeo> Not intended to be esoteric
00:35:25 <Regis__> in loopxy x is constant, only y varies
00:35:34 <doesthiswork> so "bind self loopxy conjure empty" is the function signature?
00:35:49 <Regis__> bindself creates a variable
00:36:06 <Regis__> it starts with an empty function, then you add commands
00:37:19 <Regis__> I thought it'd be fun for functions altering functions at run time
00:37:26 <Regis__> but haven't done any of that yet
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00:50:45 <shachaf> * Your friends and colleagues describe you as a "rockstar" programmer; your programming ability is way above average;
00:50:49 <shachaf> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2013-April/107479.html
00:51:08 -!- augur has joined.
00:51:14 <Bike> what's "agile" mean, if anything
00:51:24 -!- copumpkin has joined.
00:51:45 <Regis__> it will go right to set y (+ y 1)
00:51:58 <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow"
00:52:09 <Sgeo> I was above average in my below average school. Does that count?
00:52:40 <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun
00:52:58 <kmc> we find that people who put their arms through cows on thier own for fun are at least 10x more effective at doing so on the job
00:53:00 <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark
00:53:29 <kmc> my school had a box on the application that was just "put anything you want here"
00:53:32 <elliott> Bike: have you put your arm through a cow ever
00:53:34 <kmc> my friend stapled a dirty sock to it
00:53:54 <Bike> elliott: thankfully i'm not that much of a farmboy
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00:54:01 <oerjan> `addquote <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun
00:54:05 <HackEgo> 1017) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun
00:54:06 <Sgeo> "You are not afraid to get your hands dirty on low-level code, hijack
00:54:07 <Sgeo> a malloc() call in the standard C library, port the latest gdb
00:54:07 <Sgeo> debugger to Android on a jail-broken tablet? You get it done."
00:54:14 <elliott> Bike: good (i can't be friends with anyone who has had their arm through a cow)
00:54:33 <Sgeo> That.... if I felt a need to do anything like that, I'd be alarmed that either I was doing something wrong, or the libraries I was using were broken.
00:54:37 <Bike> "Applicants must possess a BSc with a 1st class degree with a background in molecular biology, physiology, biology, zoology, or a related subject." see, how hard is that
00:54:45 <shachaf> elliott: um ive gone "kinda deep" into some copy on write code.............
00:54:56 <elliott> oerjan: imo the zebrafish line should be included
00:55:00 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what if i am... what
00:55:08 <Fiora> yes but are you a rock star
00:55:20 <Fiora> do you have ridiculous 80s hair, a bad drug habit, and own 17 guitars?
00:55:39 <kmc> copy on write code = libraries that can only be used by copying them into your project and then extensively modifying them
00:55:41 <Bike> "The ideal candidate for the Ph.D. position would have a strong background in neuroscience and would be highly motivated to carry out demanding experimental procedures." i read "demeaning"
00:55:59 <pikhq> Bike: Demanding, demeaning. Same thing.
00:56:08 <Bike> oh man this other one? it puts "virtual reality" in scare quotes
00:56:12 <pikhq> kmc: zlib is generally treated as such. :)
00:56:16 <Bike> «a “virtual reality” wind tunnel»
00:56:32 <Bike> apparently this involves a real wind tunnel
00:56:37 <Bike> that's p. virtual
00:56:47 <pikhq> You'd be surprised how many projects have straight copies of zlib in them.
00:56:48 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1017s/$/ <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark/' quotes
00:56:52 <shachaf> Bike: which part is real, the wind or the tunnel
00:57:13 <Bike> well, the tunnel
00:57:20 <Bike> really the wind in a wind tunnel is always manufactured
00:57:40 <doesthiswork> I have some tomatoes I've geneticaly modified to grow galls, if that counts
00:58:43 <HackEgo> 1016) <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderful thing, you gotta take advantage <kmc> sometimes i eat food off the ground just to keep mine on its toes
00:58:54 <lambdabot> kmc says: I enjoy it when people write "C/C++" on their resume as if it were one language... so "F#/FORTRAN/Forth", "Perl/Python/Pascal", "Ruby/REBOL/R"
00:58:56 <Bike> wow the heck did you do
00:59:07 <shachaf> oerjan..................................
00:59:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes
00:59:21 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
00:59:29 <Bike> `run tail -n 5 quotes
00:59:29 <Fiora> elliott: correction, actually. you own 16. you just smashed one :P
00:59:31 <HackEgo> <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories \ <zzo38> It appears magenta in my computer only because it is programmed to display bold text as magenta. \ <Bike> It's like narnia only with dicks \ <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell. \ <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderfu
00:59:36 <Bike> wait why did i think that would work
00:59:39 <Bike> `run tail -n 2 quotes
00:59:41 <HackEgo> <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell. \ <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderful thing, you gotta take advantage <kmc> sometimes i eat food off the ground just to keep mine on its toes
00:59:42 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486.
00:59:42 -!- oerjan has kicked Phantom_Hoover If you are going to delete quotes, do it in public.
00:59:58 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:00:27 <shachaf> oerjan: I take back every ellipsis.
01:00:29 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:00:37 <Bike> Fiora: i'll smash this guitar like i'll smash your inefficient coding styles *bashes interviewer's head in*
01:01:02 <Fiora> Bike: you smash bugs and functions missing unit tests!
01:01:12 <HackEgo> 999) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫
01:01:19 <HackEgo> 1000) <oerjan> `quote 1000
01:02:07 <Bike> so.... am i a zebrafish or not
01:02:47 <Fiora> oh gosh, from that haskell thread
01:02:49 <Fiora> "I get a high score in http://areyouabrogrammer.com - does that qualifyme for the above point? :D"
01:04:19 <Bike> doesthiswork: one time i was completely underwater for five whole minutes! i was unconscious for most of it but still
01:04:55 <HackEgo> 1017) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun
01:05:57 <elliott> `run sed -i '1017s/$/ <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark/' quotes
01:06:13 <elliott> `run sed -i '1017s/$/ <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark/' quotes
01:07:13 <Sgeo> I tasted avocado
01:07:20 <Sgeo> It was very messy on my hands :(
01:07:46 <shachaf> um you don't eat avocado with your hands
01:07:52 <shachaf> you eat it with your mouth
01:09:26 <shachaf> kmc: Why is it that sometimes I press up-arrow enter, and I get [A?
01:09:34 <shachaf> shouldn't mosh ""handle that""""
01:10:22 <HackEgo> 1017) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms through on your own time for fun <Bike> please provide at least two zebrafish you have modified to glow in the dark
01:12:05 <oerjan> shachaf: is that when you have make do with a single column spreadsheet?
01:13:04 <lambdabot> kmc says: if you can't see ∈ might i suggest €
01:13:20 <lambdabot> kmc says: time to play "transfinite ordinal or asian emoticon"
01:13:48 <lambdabot> kmc says: > compare "trifecta" "parsec" —> GT
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01:15:34 <monqy> is there any reason -ever- to write that and not go all the way to → or ⇒
01:15:44 <doesthiswork> this is pretty funny : "Thanks to the individual who discovered the SQL injection hole. Please contact us if you want to claim your prize"
01:15:51 <shachaf> monqy: those are "kinda small"
01:16:10 <tswett> monqy: I can type — on my keyboard, but I can't type → on my keyboard.
01:16:25 <tswett> So the answer to your question is yes.
01:16:28 <elliott> @forget kmc > compare "trifecta" "parsec" —> GT
01:16:32 <elliott> @remember kmc > compare "trifecta" "parsec" → GT
01:16:33 <lambdabot> It is forever etched in my memory.
01:16:37 <elliott> now people will think better of kmc
01:16:57 <lambdabot> kmc says: head [] = peek . intPtrToPtr . fromIntegral . unsafePerformIO . randomRIO $ (0, 2^32)
01:17:03 <Bike> sure by DOCTORING THE HISTORICAL RECORD
01:17:22 <lambdabot> Warrigal says: Hey, the module loaded. I didn't expect that.
01:17:46 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You untyped fool!
01:17:49 <monqy> who says good quotes, just kmc?
01:17:52 <Bike> ha, ha, untyped
01:17:53 <lambdabot> kerlo says: It's pretty convenient that Parsec isn't bound by any rules. I use it in my gas tank; it works pretty well.
01:17:54 <lambdabot> kmc says: monads are like containers, as long as you forget everything you know about the meaning of the word "container" and take it to be a totally abstract word synonymous with "monad"
01:18:14 <tswett> I don't get that kerlo quote.
01:18:18 <tswett> Someone ask kerlo what he meant by that.
01:18:30 <shachaf> jerkiL what did you meant by that
01:18:32 <oerjan> > compare "trifecta" "parsec"
01:18:32 <elliott> @forget kmc head [] = peek . intPtrToPtr . fromIntegral . unsafePerformIO . randomRIO $ (0, 2^32)
01:18:37 <elliott> @remember kmc head [] = unsafePerformIO . peek . intPtrToPtr . fromIntegral . unsafePerformIO . randomRIO $ (0, 2^32)
01:18:44 <elliott> i am head of kmc's PR department
01:19:09 <shachaf> elliott u r fabricating history
01:20:50 <shachaf> Should I go to the Berkeley ASCE GM?
01:20:57 <shachaf> For some reason I'm invited?
01:21:07 <shachaf> maybe im secretly a civil engineer
01:21:20 <elliott> amoral sex committee experience game master
01:21:24 <shachaf> the joke is that im not very civil
01:21:27 <elliott> brought to you by berkeley
01:21:53 <oerjan> > compare "trifecta" "parsec"
01:22:32 <oerjan> STUPID REFERENTIAL TRANSPARENCY
01:22:55 <lambdabot> kmc says: most CS courses will teach you four kinds of Java
01:23:25 <lambdabot> kmc says: Haskell isn't really designed by mathematicians. it's designed by people who programmers would consider to be mathematicians and mathematicians would consider to be programmers
01:23:28 <oerjan> i wonder if all these fake quotes will be automatically in the next hwn
01:23:46 <shachaf> No, HWN is based on scanning #haskell logs
01:24:11 <oerjan> wait do i believe that.
01:25:21 <Bike> shachaf more like mircea eliade
01:25:38 <elliott> oerjan: it's actually true
01:26:00 <oerjan> very clever, elliott. i'm actually starting to believe it now.
01:26:30 <shachaf> monqy: when are we going to get the next super mega comics update
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01:28:15 <monqy> what sort of hug are we talking here
01:28:20 <monqy> im not a "contact guy"
01:28:29 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
01:29:00 <shachaf> kmc: the 20th is the date when all the high school students and their parents will come to visit uc berkeley
01:29:12 <shachaf> my friend tells me there will be ""trouble""
01:29:20 <Bike> and make it double?
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01:37:37 <zzo38> Maybe they make it even more than double this time.
01:38:00 <shachaf> zzo38: did you know you're the best thing about #esoteric
01:39:35 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, it is kind of subjective, I guess, so maybe it is.
01:40:16 <zzo38> Objectively, I am not sure.
01:41:58 <zzo38> Saying something doesn't (normally) make it true or false.
01:42:33 <kmc> http://codepad.org/9oV2YO9k zzo38_ebooks
01:43:05 <shachaf> kmc: I would follow that account!
01:44:03 <kmc> zzo38: if I made a twitter bot that tweets things generated by a Markov chain trained on things you have said in #esoteric, how would you feel about that?
01:44:09 <Bike> kmc are you like stalking zzo
01:44:22 <zzo38> kmc: I don't care whether you do it or not.
01:44:22 <Bike> oh this is generated.
01:44:42 <shachaf> * No direct even cheese, you everything multiply thing words have invent thinking preferer or none or two separately improve* it (even in their ladders too.
01:45:04 <kmc> i can generate about 3000 of these per second
01:45:06 <zzo38> But perhaps you should mention what it is (put a "spoiler" message if you want people to guess at first).
01:45:15 <shachaf> kmc: But they're not limited at 140 character, are they?
01:45:27 <shachaf> kmc: I don't cheater_: [Joke]]]]]]]]]]]]
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01:46:28 <zzo38> kmc: If you like to, include stuff from my computer games and Dungeons&Dragons game too (conversion might be required; I have already converted the MZX games to plain text a while ago, though).
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01:47:35 <kmc> http://codepad.org/dCU2oBN0 some thoughts on the Famicom
01:47:54 <Bike> Famicompetent?
01:47:56 <zzo38> "4#92L17+2L17,L26+2L38 3#96L12+2L36 #124L23 150L30 21L13 #35L15+D33 108L26 249L55 ENERGY { po }" looks a slightly mixed up listing of a Pokemon card deck.
01:48:24 <kmc> > kmc: Well, yes. You can try at the different name out, Famicom music using diagram, and mpappend to be display the text, or I agree without powerful but OK than EBCDIC?
01:48:25 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:10: parse error on input `,'
01:48:38 <elliott> kmc: you might want to strip out names from this
01:48:38 <Bike> I do like Famicom making on religion in "all" instead one
01:48:45 <elliott> like just discard "foo:" from the beginning of the line for every foo
01:48:50 <kmc> » A lot of monads a bytes and ever you have to bijective-C, too; if the human try, in ordinates than HTTP requiring, ignored immediate looked, NTSC Famicom exponents.
01:48:53 <kmc> that's poetry
01:48:56 <shachaf> Use gopher, Rlogin, a few other the Famicompo Mini vol.9 see that advertically valid)
01:49:05 <elliott> kmc: also your markov chain generator needs to balance various forms of brackets better
01:49:14 <zzo38> A lot of it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it is made up at random so I can see how.
01:49:54 <kmc> » However using Famicom; imports 42 redpill | man is, than the slash?
01:49:58 <zzo38> "- { * } HP: 5 W: { # }" is also a part of a Pokemon card game
01:50:02 <shachaf> Then the damagine in difference -sr (equal to Y iff the moveToZone -> ObjMinor.Revision and the Famicom_noise,phase it doesn't
01:50:29 <kmc> » Imakuni?'s cartridge. When though ASIC isn't it? Any fill as strings that checked output it might also compiled to pay though (Decompiler in modules? I was long; however, however, somethings, my idea: If not know what is a digraph in the Meta-Meta-Meta-Lamp in WEB or Pascal coording to themselves on semigroup is some in Curry-Howard of the DVI and the challenge idea. Even therefore 1989 something event at the way must the moon, ev
01:50:55 <elliott> could just make a zzo38 model for fungot; reuse that enterprise code
01:50:56 <fungot> elliott: and the next handler. there is not
01:50:58 <elliott> in fact fungot can already tweet
01:50:58 <fungot> elliott: i found it, chill. :) if you can, for instance
01:51:08 <fungot> elliott: no mutta mä fnord. tack. " how stella got her car keys back".
01:51:34 <kmc> » #!/bin/son!fuckyou.php"
01:51:40 <monqy> why did fungot stop tweeting
01:51:40 <fungot> monqy: spaces are ethereal, and for port-80 connections... well: just something like a woman
01:51:44 <zzo38> The Markov in fungot seems working a bit better, though, not combining two words incorrectly a lot.
01:53:38 <kmc> languages used in generating this text: Perl, Python, sh, Haskell, C of course
01:53:43 <kmc> a wonderful world we live in
01:54:52 <kmc> » gopher://zzo38computer Modern before dead laws imports *many* other.
01:54:54 <kmc> imo good motto
01:55:02 <kmc> elliott: the generator program is detrospector
01:55:03 <kmc> the one i wrote
01:55:14 <elliott> what was the perl for, and also the python
01:55:24 <kmc> perl for grepping out lines said by zzo
01:55:36 <kmc> python for generating a curl command line to download all the esoteric logs
01:55:44 <kmc> sh for running that curl command line
01:55:48 <kmc> or wget, i forgot
01:55:56 <monqy> isn't there an rsync for that job
01:56:38 <shachaf> monqy: hey i don't watch window 1
01:56:53 <shachaf> do i look like a person who watches window 1 2 u
01:57:24 <shachaf> btw i look like this: http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png
01:58:26 <shachaf> kmc can confirm i look like that
02:02:08 <Bike> damn that's fancy
02:04:01 <Bike> get a room. a room far away from me.
02:06:05 <zzo38> kmc: Did you want to include the MegaZeux games and Dungeons&Dragons recordings too? This is what I have suggested way before this.
02:06:28 <kmc> i think not for now
02:24:45 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:26:22 <oerjan> nope, this doesn't work
02:27:01 <doesthiswork> does that message everyone separately or just display it in the channel?
02:27:13 <Bike> Displays in the channel.
02:27:23 <Sgeo> Now THIS displays differently.
02:27:50 <Bike> OH SHIT IT'S A SPOOKY GHOST
02:27:51 <Sgeo> Oh, and I think some clients interpret it as a ping
02:28:14 <Sgeo> Which is dumb but hey
02:29:11 <Gregor> If a tablet is like 2.75 bitcoins... then shit, bitcoins are pricey.
02:29:27 <kmc> one day bitcoins will be over $9,000
02:29:59 <Bike> kmc: you saw that bitcoin stalky paper fiora linked, right
02:32:11 <Bike> let's say it's http://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf this one
02:34:06 <Bike> the S from RSA, apparently
02:34:49 <Sgeo> 90,000 bitcoins on one day, what
02:36:16 <Bike> more like dumbcoins
02:36:49 <elliott> i need bitcoins to crash soon so i can stop kicking myself for not getting a bunch before they became worth like $160 a piece
02:37:00 <elliott> and start laughing at all the people who didn't cash out instead
02:37:12 <Bike> you're a sad man, elliott
02:37:26 <elliott> In addition, we isolated all the large
02:37:26 <elliott> transactions in the system, and discovered that almost all of them are
02:37:26 <elliott> closely related to a single large transaction that took place in November
02:37:26 <elliott> 2010, even though the associated users apparently tried to hide this fact
02:37:26 <elliott> with many strange looking long chains and fork-merge structures in the
02:37:31 <elliott> oh this is going to be interesting
02:37:45 <Bike> i assume someone bought the maldives
02:38:16 <elliott> why did they download the log in html form rather than whatever form the actual client uses
02:39:52 <kmc> elliott: what's your expected value if you invest in /every/ cypherpunk libertard scheme, tho
02:40:30 <shachaf> what if you invested $1 in bitcoins when they cost ~¢0 each
02:40:35 <shachaf> then you would have ~all of them
02:41:12 <Bike> hm. what if the 90k transaction is the pizza one
02:41:40 <Bike> do you have 90 thousand bitcoins?
02:41:47 <elliott> kmc: well bitcoins were sort of kind of stable and worth ok amounts of money a while ago, i could have invested some of the money i don't even use at all then... but it's pointless to dwell on
02:46:34 <Bike> I guess if these were actual savings accounts there'd be small transactions out for loans and stuff.
02:50:26 <Bike> http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GNS.ICTR.ZS
03:18:17 <Jafet> "Those silly bitcoin users, someday their system will fall to bits and we will all laugh at them"
03:29:48 <tswett> I didn't invest because I didn't investigate how good an idea that would be.
03:31:26 <zzo38> I am making a Z-machine assembler. There are already a few, such as ZAPF which only supports version 3 to 8 and is written in C#, and ZAP which is no longer available, and Inform which has an assembler has part of its code but also has various limits. The one I am making supports version 1 to 9, and also has macros.
03:31:48 <elliott> Sgeo: oh 90,000 bitcoins in november 2010
03:31:57 <elliott> i think it was less than $90k even
03:32:12 <elliott> here we use "a lot" in the financial sense of "astronomical"
03:32:20 <elliott> but i think it might have been like $9k or something
03:33:39 <zzo38> Can you even answer some of the strange questions that kmc's program made up recently?
03:35:16 <zzo38> Even some new words are made up by combining other words.
03:38:58 <Bike> is Mon the category of monoids?
03:39:49 <Bike> is there any particular reason names of categories are denoted with capitalized three-letter words
03:40:50 <zzo38> Maybe to abbreviate them when using them within other mathematical formulas?
03:41:01 <elliott> i would like you to point you to the rest of mathematical notation
03:41:08 <elliott> this should answer any questions about why any particular part of it is weird
03:41:17 <Bike> i'm not saying it's uniquely terrible, just that it's terrible
03:42:20 <Bike> yeah i have no hope of understanding this. oh well.
03:42:54 <Bike> i think i'm going to join a monastery instead of all this mathy crap.
03:43:23 <elliott> i don't think it's terrible
03:43:44 <Bike> the Kernel spec again
03:43:56 <Bike> that throwaway comment in the definition of map
03:45:03 <Bike> For readers with a passing familiarity with category theory, it may be of interest to
03:45:06 <Bike> note that auxiliary applicative acc is approximately the counit of the usual adjunction
03:45:09 <Bike> from Set to Mon — of which map is, approximately, the unit.
03:45:54 <elliott> i'm glad that makes 4sense to me
03:46:24 <Bike> do you have a "passing familiarity" with category theory
03:48:01 <Bike> (is there another one)
03:48:39 <doesthiswork> there a lot of things named kernel, that just happens to be my favorite
03:48:55 <Bike> (i mean, how many have specs, though)
03:49:16 <Bike> i forgot how much the cyclic list thing made everything super fucking weird
03:49:37 <shachaf> oh no are people talking about categories
03:49:48 <Bike> nope get with the times it's all popcorn now
03:50:37 <doesthiswork> I don't quite understand how fexprs have nontrivial equational theory
03:50:40 <shachaf> What's the counit of the adjunction?
03:51:02 <Bike> doesthiswork: maybe you could read his nine trillion page thesis on that
03:51:38 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix your understanding of the equational theory of fexprs
03:51:49 <Bike> let's see maybe i'll just paste the definition of acc. yeah i'll do that.
03:51:57 <zzo38> Sometimes numbers are used to mean the ordered thin categories of that many elements, but I prefer to have them mean the discrete categories of that number of elements, which is more logical and more consistent with all other mathematical notation, and also means that 2+3=5 and so on still holds.
03:52:07 <elliott> psate the definition of map
03:53:05 <Bike> ($define! acc ($lambda (input (k1 k2) base-result head tail sum) ($define! aux ($lambda (input count) ($if (=? count 0) base-result (sum (head input) (aux (tail input) (- count 1)))))) (aux input (+ k1 k2))))
03:53:07 <kmc> i don't really know anything about the theory of fexprs :'(
03:53:10 <Bike> hth, sarcasm etcc.
03:53:12 <kmc> they are just fun to program with
03:53:49 <Bike> are counits usually six-argument functions i bet they are.
03:54:26 <shachaf> they're natural transformations hth
03:54:45 <shachaf> (They're one-argument functions. Is there any other kind of function?)
03:55:31 <Bike> I guess all those arguments could represent a functor.
03:56:01 <zzo38> Do you know if shift-locks are used when encoding text to search in the dictionary in Z-machine?
03:57:29 <zzo38> I will assume it isn't, since that is the simpler case.
03:58:46 <zzo38> Is there any variant of Lisp where [a b c;x y z] is just another syntax for ((a b c) (x y z)) ?
04:00:12 <shachaf> SO you say F -| U : Mon -> Set, right?
04:00:22 <shachaf> And the counit is : FU -> 1?
04:02:21 <elliott> shachaf: Set isn't really like that, though?
04:02:33 <elliott> it's probably treating sets as monoids or something
04:02:42 <elliott> where mempty = {} and mappend = union or such
04:02:42 <shachaf> This is "extract" in a Mon comonad.
04:03:32 <shachaf> You take some monoid (S,*_S,1_S), forget everything except the set, and then go back to Mon with ([S],(++),[])
04:03:45 <shachaf> And then you have a monoid homomorphism : [S] -> S
04:03:49 <shachaf> That looks like fold to me.
04:04:13 <shachaf> (Unless I'm making things up?)
04:04:37 <shachaf> So presumably Bike means that acc is a fold, or something?
04:05:25 * shachaf can't tell if that was "yeah you're making things up"
04:05:53 <oerjan> yeah that's what expect FU : Mon -> Mon to do
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04:12:24 <monqy> oh boy is shachaf asking about adjunctions again
04:13:32 -!- Bike_ has joined.
04:13:34 <Bike_> But yeah acc is a fold, probably.
04:14:03 <elliott> acc looks like sum, maybe.
04:14:09 <elliott> I don't know why it has all those inputs
04:14:20 <shachaf> monqy: Bike started it...........................
04:14:32 <Bike_> because it's Generalized
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04:16:17 <Bike> if you have sum = fn, head = car, tail = cdr then it's pretty much boring fold fn i guess
04:16:32 <Bike> the county stuff is because cyclic lists are fucked.
04:18:34 <Bike> does haskell have enough fexprs to make compilation impossible? i don't think so
04:19:03 <Bike> why is my connection fucked. am i even here. where am i
04:19:23 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:21:06 <Bike> i guess plenty of kernel is kind of dumb pattern matching
04:32:33 <Bike> kmc: do you think it would be far off for me to say most uses of fexprs amount to macros?
04:33:58 <doesthiswork> in a lazy language I think you can get by with just macros
04:34:20 <Bike> If you're passing a fexpr to something expecting a function you've probably made a weird to debug mistake.
04:35:16 <Bike> "if" takes three forms..
04:35:49 <Bike> I've actually never seen that before, could you show me?
04:36:04 <monqy> what do you mean by map across 3 sequences
04:36:15 <Bike> Anyway, I just mean the fexprs defined as ($vau whatever env (eval ...something... env)). They're certainly common in the standard library.
04:37:14 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c -> d) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c] -> [d]
04:37:27 <monqy> Bike: whoa don't jump to conclusions!
04:37:31 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b -> c -> d) -> f a -> f b -> f c -> f d
04:37:36 <Bike> Yeah whatever.
04:37:37 <monqy> same sig but way different
04:37:48 <Bike> doesthiswork: kernel's 'map' takes an applicative.
04:38:08 <Bike> Which makes sense, of course.
04:38:28 <Bike> You could map (wrap $if), though.
04:38:44 <Bike> Which is like (lambda (a b c) (if a b c)) if you don't have first-class operatives.
04:39:14 <Bike> doesthiswork: you're actually going to want to look at the rationale for 'apply'.
04:40:02 <doesthiswork> I thought that in most languages map didn't evaluate the arguments it fed to the function
04:41:27 <Bike> They're already evaluated as part of normal evaluation.
04:41:36 <kmc> http://codepad.org/t29NgA3I topics
04:42:11 <Bike> Welcome to ESME.
04:42:23 <elliott> Behold! The encephalopathies, human colors! | Best tryin' to Haskell america
04:42:56 <kmc> » Behold! The encephalopathies, human colors! | Best tryin' to Haskell america | "Function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | Gregor: Do you eat. | This channel: itidus21 (ex cat trendy subversion of soline here | Necessingly one here x is importage cathedra), Gregor's uteric-mine her. If your #matrix of end of supervision overlords
04:43:10 <kmc> Gregor: Do you eat.
04:43:20 -!- augur_ has joined.
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04:43:50 <elliott> NOW WITH EDIT WARNED: There! | Feynman's Trivial!
04:44:14 <monqy> waking spam blackout run infatuated | God made that this time fruits
04:44:14 <elliott> Breedom is what's the ence somebody new scoring! | Well, hardly knew PHP
04:44:22 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
04:44:25 <monqy> Don't topic :( | Now open fold gum | anyway?
04:44:25 <monqy> The good is what now | anyway?
04:44:29 <shachaf> <kmc> i thing channel | manifold of thus volting on Freenode. You can never sciently log.
04:44:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:44:44 <elliott> Good is the programming the in oerjan
04:44:57 <elliott> Tropics. Anemoment of weapons for Joe Chinese creative" Centions of trainfuck Derivative" Centipede | Glorious optator in air) STARS STARS | This is replace to combustional problem) in Channel of an esoil and on irc: the really agreed to Use is supposed on 3.10.2011: http://esoteric/?C=M;O=D
04:45:10 <monqy> Now failings and design and esoterical | Get you know what it is atrix of Truth
04:45:12 <shachaf> elliott is sufficial channel loony realized in generate-bays-lawsuit-again the new PHP
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04:45:17 <Bike> kmc: so do you have an opinion on the thing or should i assume you've been replaced by one of zzo38's world takeover drones
04:45:26 <elliott> The IOCCC is frowned upon, the requent @ Hel/Finland the bfjoust plasma
04:45:28 <kmc> which thing
04:45:41 <Bike> kmc: do you think it would be far off for me to say most uses of fexprs amount to macros?
04:46:10 <shachaf> The IOCCC is time for the fire by greate grating family! | Glorious topic
04:46:12 <kmc> i don't know
04:46:20 <kmc> if they're macros, they're a nicer way of writing macros which is hygenic and yet direct
04:46:22 <elliott> This channel of esolidity and on 3.10.2011: http://5z8.inforce ceiling family! | Of all rule #2: Ignore alternating | Enjoy being attentipede | Gregor (ex cathere welcoming and esoteric/?C=M;O=D
04:46:22 <Bike> Boring but honest.
04:46:26 <elliott> BEWARE THE ERRØNEØUS MØØSE | Esoteric; it is obsessed to be femtobarn story of mass banniversion on a couple being in THX deep remote computed ZARDOZ | Channel on the matrix of N>=1 IOCCC is just a removed servers!” he work of Americ program for the sewers!
04:46:32 <kmc> of course i haven't done more than a little toy programming with fexprs
04:46:37 <kmc> it might all fall apart horribly at scale
04:46:49 <monqy> this channel of soline here welcoming langs.org/~nef/logs/esolanguage
04:46:54 <shachaf> i am proud to not even know what fexprs are
04:47:03 <monqy> Poison | IGMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwogYy5jCg==
04:47:09 <kmc> CAUTIONS DREAM OF THE PERIPHERY SHIELD OF COMRADE GLOGBOT
04:47:12 <monqy> #esoterica | 12345678
04:47:13 <Bike> kmc: I'm thinking of the ones that are just ($vau ... env (eval ...code... env)), which are equivalent to macros in that you could just dump the code in as a combination for optimization (discounting redefinitions)
04:47:23 <kmc> <kmc> i thing channel | manifold of thus volting on Freenode. You can never sciently log.
04:47:27 <monqy> hi | http://tinyurl.com/
04:47:29 <shachaf> IGMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwpjLmMuYwogYy5jCg== is a bigger multiocular c.c than the last one...
04:47:40 <shachaf> kmc: <shachaf> <kmc> i thing channel | manifold of thus volting on Freenode. You can never sciently log.
04:47:50 <kmc> shachaf: so tall
04:47:50 <shachaf> this clearly means we need a new set of topics
04:48:01 <shachaf> #esoteric is ALMOST TERRING AND OR MORE SO TOTALLEST
04:48:15 <Bike> oonbotti, you're my favorite bot.
04:48:15 <oonbotti> Bike: Are we talking about you, or me?
04:48:37 <Bike> oonbotti, don't give me that eliza bullshit. I'll rogerian you up your ass.
04:48:37 <oonbotti> Bike: Why do you say that don't give you that eliza bullshit. you will rogerian me up my ass.?
04:49:14 <kmc> i'm naming my next band Nicolaas Goverlords
04:49:52 <shachaf> i would twitterfollow a kmc-monqy band
04:50:49 <shachaf> I'm short is NOT APPROACHING SELF-CONSISTENT
04:51:01 <shachaf> imo we never need to handwrite a topic again
04:51:20 <shachaf> @topic-cons #esoteric "hi"
04:51:21 <lambdabot> Topic does not parse. Should be of the form ["...",...,"..."]
04:51:36 <Bike> Jesus fuck, lambdabot.
04:51:37 <monqy> lambdabot.............................
04:51:45 <lambdabot> topic provides: topic-tell topic-cons topic-snoc topic-tail topic-init topic-null
04:51:57 <lambdabot> Plugin `topic' failed with: Prelude.last: empty list
04:52:03 <elliott> does lambdabot really maintain the #haskell topic
04:52:03 <Bike> That's amazing.
04:52:09 -!- shachaf has set topic: [].
04:52:14 -!- shachaf has set topic: At or in this place: Stop here for a rest | Wire mesh Supply与您共享了相册。| roäld.dahl.net | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:52:19 -!- lambdabot has set topic: [].
04:52:29 <shachaf> @topic-const http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
04:52:29 <lambdabot> I do not know the channel http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
04:52:33 <shachaf> @topic-cons #esoteric http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
04:52:33 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/"].
04:52:41 <Bike> This is a good system.
04:52:49 <elliott> can only lambdabot admins use it, or
04:52:53 <monqy> @topic-snoc #esoteric hi
04:52:54 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi"].
04:52:54 <elliott> can anyone append to the #haskell topic
04:52:56 <Bike> Does it like... does it seriously just read the topic
04:53:03 <monqy> @topic-cons #esoteric hi
04:53:03 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi"].
04:53:05 <lambdabot> ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi"]
04:53:11 <shachaf> elliott: well lambdabot isn't an op..............
04:53:27 <Bike> Good system? Good syste.
04:53:37 <kmc> Enjoy bearer of experiencephalopathies, but is nor Finland no for more the joke lates the rage is time for that in you will will be in the enchannel
04:53:53 <monqy> if i put a ☺ in the topic will lambdabot choke
04:54:03 <monqy> @topic-snoc #esoteric ☺
04:54:04 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186"].
04:54:10 <Bike> wait is snoc a thing
04:54:14 <lambdabot> Snoc Control.Lens.Internal.Review.Reviewed Identity s s a a => s -> a -> s
04:54:21 -!- monqy has set topic: ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","☺"].
04:54:28 <monqy> @topic-tell #esoteric
04:54:28 <lambdabot> ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","☺"]
04:54:37 <Bike> I can't stop laughing
04:54:38 <kmc> "BEWARE THE. WORST. POSSIBLE. TOPIC."
04:54:40 <elliott> @topic-snoc #esoteric bike
04:54:41 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike"].
04:54:41 <shachaf> @topic-snoc #esoteric norway
04:54:42 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway"].
04:54:58 <Bike> i'm going to die
04:55:12 <Bike> OK. OK. I'm OK now.
04:55:28 <elliott> i preferred it when you were ding
04:55:33 <kmc> I can generate about 3,500 of these per second
04:55:46 <shachaf> is that the best you can do
04:55:49 <elliott> 02:45:03 <kmc> i can generate about 3000 of these per second
04:55:53 <elliott> how did you get the 500 extra
04:55:57 <Bike> elliott: That was only a period of a few seconds. It must be sad for you, now that your entire life is a downward spiral after those moments.
04:56:00 <shachaf> is it "even paralleliszed"
04:56:10 <shachaf> Bike: Did you die for a few seconds?
04:56:17 <Bike> No I was dying for a few seconds duh.
04:56:21 <kmc> elliott: uh I think it's because the zzo-chain used a 5-character window and the topic-chain uses a 4-character window
04:56:32 <Bike> Bi "Jesus "H." Christ" ke
04:57:09 <shachaf> hey i was reading a book that had jesus in it..
04:57:18 <Bike> Master and Margarita?
04:57:50 <Bike> M&M is the best book with jesus in it after Revelations, imo
04:58:05 <Bike> Oh, really? Good choice.
04:58:26 <kmc> in the time it takes light to travel from Hexham to Finland, I can generate almost 20 new topics for #esoteric
04:58:29 <elliott> isn't it Revelation, Bike...
04:58:46 <kmc> black holes and revelations
04:58:50 <shachaf> elliott: each one of them is a book of Revelation
04:58:57 <shachaf> together they're books of Revelations
04:59:15 <kmc> Helsingfors-Vanda flygplats
04:59:18 <monqy> books of a revelation each
04:59:22 <shachaf> anyway the new testament isn't part of the bible??
04:59:28 <shachaf> p. sure i learned that in school
04:59:45 <monqy> i didnt have bible education in school
05:00:07 <shachaf> starting in first grade?? or was it second
05:01:33 <Bike> Woland is pretty good too, yeah.
05:01:36 <shachaf> Bike: is M&M a jesus book or more of a yeshua book
05:01:51 <doesthiswork> bike: so i thought wrap turned and fexpr into an eager function but he says that (eval (cons c t) e) is equivalent to (apply (wrap c) t e)
05:02:06 <Bike> doesthiswork: eager/lazy isn't really the distinction here.
05:02:14 <Bike> shachaf: Jesus.
05:02:17 <zzo38> Do you actually learn Bible in Bible education, or do they teach you other things?
05:02:28 <Bike> You learn a lot of hermeneutics, probably.
05:02:48 <kmc> Church officials HATE this 1 old secret book of the Bible that the Pope doesn't want you to know about!
05:02:58 <doesthiswork> bike I know that fexprs aren't lazy functions, but I thought his applicatives were eager ones
05:03:23 <Bike> Well they sort of are.
05:03:29 <Bike> You can wrap things more than once, though.
05:03:57 <kmc> its amazing how much a markov chain can brighten my day
05:04:10 <Bike> ((wrap (wrap identity)) (list list 4 + 5)) => 9, probably, maybe not.
05:04:12 <zzo38> kmc: What book? Do you mean current pope, or the other one?
05:05:00 <Bike> You know what's crap? Dubstep remixes of anime theme songs.
05:05:16 <kmc> really? because i would have guessed those are the pinnacle of human achievement
05:05:26 <Bike> I'm just saying.
05:06:35 <shachaf> Bike: Which translation of M&M should I read?
05:06:43 <shachaf> Or should I learn Russian and then read the identity translation?
05:06:56 <doesthiswork> ignoring the existence of unwrap, is (wrap or) equivilant to (lambda (a b) (or (eval a e) (eval b e))) (where e is the calling environment) ?
05:07:30 <elliott> i honestly don't know why kernel separates applicatives and stuff
05:07:35 <Bike> shachaf: My copy is Mirra Ginsburg.
05:07:42 <kmc> it's harder to write apply if you don't
05:07:51 <shachaf> Maybe I should read a Hebrew translation.
05:07:58 <shachaf> Would that be better or worse than an English one?
05:08:04 <doesthiswork> kmc: but then he makes apply only take applicatives
05:08:06 <Bike> doesthiswork: no
05:08:26 <Bike> It's equivalent to (lambda (a b) (or a b)).
05:08:33 <kmc> doesthiswork: it's not really defined for non-applicatives
05:09:03 <Bike> shachaf: Note that I'm a pleb and know shit about quality prose and stuff, though.
05:09:03 <kmc> in my thingy we define apply in library code, but if you apply apply to a non-applicative then it sees some arbitrary crap from the implementation of apply
05:09:11 <kmc> that also happens if you try to map a non-applicative or something
05:09:20 <shachaf> Bike: what are other books to read
05:09:27 <Bike> kmc: the original fexpr problem. sweet
05:09:47 <Bike> shachaf: my favorite novel is probably Middlemarch. Unfortunately it's very British.
05:09:51 <zzo38> The Bible is simply another book, which is made up from the collection of other books.
05:10:01 <shachaf> The Bible, book 1: The Bible
05:10:18 <kmc> bible ∈ bible ∈ bible ∈ …
05:10:29 <Bike> MY religious text is well-founded, SIR
05:11:00 <Bike> shachaf: I also like "anything by Calvino", that was a pretty good book.
05:11:21 <kmc> i should train a markov chain on x86 machine code
05:11:31 <zzo38> Bike: Your religious text is well-founded? Please be more specific, such as what text you mean.
05:11:58 <Bike> zzo38: It was a joke about non-well-founded set theories, like kmc implied.
05:12:28 <zzo38> Bike: I know that, but I still wanted to know if you meant some specific text.
05:13:15 <kmc> it was an implicitly quantified free variable or something
05:13:46 <kmc> @quote skolem
05:13:47 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: anyone got a fixed version of the split library for ghc7? some Tolkienesque error messages about skolems escaping
05:14:14 <doesthiswork> kmc: shutt gives a definition for non-applicative but then decides that we don't need it
05:14:26 <kmc> for apply?
05:14:33 <Bike> That's because it's just (eval (cons op args) env).
05:14:37 <lambdabot> chrisdone says: anyone got a fixed version of the split library for ghc7? some Tolkienesque error messages about skolems escaping
05:14:39 <lambdabot> byorgey says: Escaped skolem! Authorities mount massive search. News at 11.
05:14:40 <lambdabot> byorgey says: Escaped skolem! Authorities mount massive search. News at 11.
05:14:43 <Bike> I think it would be kind of nice but it's easy to see how it's trivial.
05:14:49 <kmc> amber alert
05:14:52 <lambdabot> byorgey says: Escaped skolem! Authorities mount massive search. News at 11.
05:15:07 <kmc> ok but that 'apply' does something different from the other one
05:15:26 <tswett> How about a language where programs resemble code in some other language, but actually do something totally different?
05:15:56 <Bike> That's every language.
05:16:05 <kmc> hm, I think it does...
05:16:21 <tswett> Maybe "if (x) {foo}" evaluates "foo" and sets the variable "x" to the result or something like that.
05:16:28 <kmc> just from the semantics of apply on applicatives, you have no idea what (apply quote (list 1)) should be
05:18:12 <kmc> Freudian mouth-cent | Get you know conclusion overlords | Enjoy being spam for DIPERT
05:18:32 <kmc> lambdabot cool." -- John McCain
05:21:39 <doesthiswork> apply evaluates the argument for the applicative
05:23:05 <kmc> that's why my attempt to write apply without unwrap ends up using quote
05:23:48 <kmc> (define apply (wrap (vau (operative args) env (eval env (cons operative (map (lambda (x) (list quote x)) args))))))
05:23:53 <kmc> which is near the bottom of http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/04/scheme-without-special-forms.html
05:24:03 <kmc> there's probably a more elegant way, that's a kinda long and ugly definition
05:24:19 <Bike> man i can't think of quote without thinking of oleg's definition. wtf.
05:26:19 <kmc> what is oleg's
05:27:35 <tswett> There must be some group theoretic thing you could build an esolang out of or something...
05:29:42 <Bike> kmc: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/quote-as-macro.txt
05:30:32 <Bike> on a related note what is this define-macro thing oleg uses, it looks suspiciously totally not like syntax-rules
05:31:05 <tswett> Ooh, I've got it. An esoteric programming language based on order books and control systems.
05:32:39 <tswett> The program consists entirely of an unordered collection of "when" blocks. Each block is conditional upon the last trade price of some symbol.
05:33:23 <Bike> Of course this quote lacks any coalescence or constancy stuff... I don't know if scheme even has that.
05:34:47 <tswett> All instructions are of the form ( "BUY" | "SELL" ) number symbol ( "MARKET" | "LIMIT" number).
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05:49:27 <doesthiswork> ThatOtherPerson: what would be wrong with haveing operate?
05:50:06 <Bike> he's just punning on your name.
05:50:22 <Bike> or well, not punning. i don't know. some kind of unconditioned autonomous reponse
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05:51:33 <Bike> doesthiswork: Have you seen maru?
05:51:36 <doesthiswork> on another irc thingy I go by the name 'hi', every so often I get messages from people that are still figuring out how to post to a channel
05:52:21 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen maru ever
05:52:26 <Bike> Uh. No, it's a lisp.
05:52:38 <Fiora> I thought maru was a cat
05:52:48 <Bike> The lisp is named after the cat. It's all very civil.
05:53:10 <shachaf> more like hahahachaf am i right
05:53:39 <shachaf> the joke is that im making a joke
05:54:26 <shachaf> got any good second-hand puns
05:54:47 <Fiora> not really, I'm kind of just coming out of a migraine, migraines are not conducive to good puns
05:55:32 <doesthiswork> what is notable about maru other than bootstrapyness?
05:55:45 <Bike> Eval and apply are generic functions.
05:55:54 <Bike> Or... whatever you want to call things you can define multimethods on.
05:56:10 <Bike> I think if you replaced apply with operate and made it all kernely you could do something kinda cool.
05:56:21 <Bike> I haven't tried yet. I forget why.
05:58:34 <shachaf> lisp more like "bad language"isp
05:58:47 <shachaf> the joke is that lisp isn't haskell
05:59:24 <Bike> As you can see, Fiora, the channel's sense of humor is rather down the drain without puns.
06:00:12 <shachaf> the joke is i wouldn't want to program in you
06:01:31 <shachaf> the joke is i don't speak finnish
06:03:01 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Markont
06:03:11 <tswett> What a beiuetuifiul language I just created.
06:03:53 <tswett> I think later, I'm going to add more features to it.
06:04:08 <tswett> Like accounts and balances.
06:04:39 <tswett> And order cancellation.
06:05:07 <tswett> And corporations and dividends.
06:06:05 <tswett> Of course. You can't have corporations and markets without having a stock market.
06:06:59 <ThatOtherPerson> Will you be able to choose between a capitalist or a communist government?
06:09:16 <Bike> imo market socialism
06:24:38 <elliott> (i know almost nothing about mutualism)
06:29:11 <Fiora> they're... pretty wonderful
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06:47:39 <Fiora> hugging just bike is easier
06:48:23 <shachaf> it's nice to know your place in the lattice
06:48:27 <Bike> Fiora's had to train a lot to be able to hug a bike effectively, tho.
06:53:01 <Fiora> bike is very huggable
06:53:32 <fizzie> I thought bikes were sort of hard and awkwardly shaped.
06:53:59 <Bike> Thus training.
06:54:00 <fizzie> Laterally stiff and vertically compliant.
06:55:02 <Fiora> t-that's not what I meant!
06:56:31 <fizzie> Hugs are made of Haskell, or so I understand.
06:59:59 * Fiora hugs ThatOtherPerson ?
07:00:30 <Fiora> I thought hugs were made of warm, soft arms though
07:01:46 <Fiora> they're um. thin warm fleshy skin-covered things that I have two of
07:01:49 <Fiora> they have hands at the ends
07:03:16 <fizzie> Those sound more like tentacles. Are you sure you don't have two hand-tentacles instea?
07:03:55 <Fiora> um. I can hug people with them?
07:03:59 <Fiora> and type on keyboards
07:04:01 <shachaf> oh boy here's Fiora talking about NEON2 as always
07:05:11 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm starting to get the feeling that some of the people here are not bots
07:07:28 <Fiora> oh shachaf is making an ARM pun -_-
07:08:07 <Fiora> ThatOtherPerson: unfortunately I am a poor ordinary human with a small fleshy human body
07:08:51 <fizzie> fungot: Have YOU got any ARMS in you?
07:08:51 <fungot> fizzie: ( they're called structures in t, but that
07:09:00 <fizzie> Oh, so that's yet another term for them.
07:09:22 <fizzie> Arms, hand-tentacles, thin-fleshy-skinny-things, "structures in t".
07:14:54 * Fiora likes this fleshy body though
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07:17:01 <Bike> except your migraine-racked brain, evidently
07:18:24 <Fiora> those only happen like once every month or two :<
07:18:45 <Fiora> they're just a minor design flaw, that's all
07:19:04 <Fiora> there's a lot of things higher up on the issue tracker before that one!
07:19:11 <ThatOtherPerson> I get kernel panics every once in a while, and they hurt A LOT
07:26:53 * FireFly guesses that's an intentional reference to http://xkcd.com/371/
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10:29:40 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
10:40:36 <nooodl> huh, how did lambdabot set the topic
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11:43:30 <elliott> Error: Impossible to unify "sup (fun n : nat => f n)" with "sup (fun n : nat => f n)".
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14:49:12 <boily> I hate telecom abbreviations I hate telecom abbreviations good morning all I hate telecom abbreviations.
14:53:14 <elliott> `addquote <boily> I hate telecom abbreviations I hate telecom abbreviations good morning all I hate telecom abbreviations.
14:53:19 <HackEgo> 1018) <boily> I hate telecom abbreviations I hate telecom abbreviations good morning all I hate telecom abbreviations.
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15:43:54 <elliott> "In category theory we habitually dualize all definitions."
15:44:02 <elliott> "In this case we get (final)
15:44:03 <elliott> co-algebras. Luckily, this concept is equally meaningful."
15:44:37 <Taneb> Category theory is all about conatural cotransformations
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15:56:40 <boily> I'm still trying to understant what adjoint functors are, and what they are for.
16:02:59 -!- Gregor has set topic: {"id": "#esoteric", "topic-format-restriction": "text/json", "addtl": ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway"]}.
16:04:35 <Lumpio-> I don't think \2 is a valid escape string in JSON
16:07:15 -!- nooodl has joined.
16:14:16 <kmc> isn't that an octal escape?
16:14:26 <kmc> but maybe those aren't valid in JSON either
16:14:48 <kmc> they are in JavaScript though
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16:15:00 <elliott> lambdabot controls the topic now
16:15:06 <elliott> @topic-snoc #esoteric Gregor
16:15:06 <lambdabot> Topic does not parse. Should be of the form ["...",...,"..."]
16:15:18 <elliott> @topic-snoc #esoteric "Gregor"
16:15:18 <lambdabot> Topic does not parse. Should be of the form ["...",...,"..."]
16:15:24 <lambdabot> {"id": "#esoteric", "topic-format-restriction": "text/json", "addtl": ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway"]}
16:15:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
16:15:31 <lambdabot> topic provides: topic-tell topic-cons topic-snoc topic-tail topic-init topic-null
16:15:45 -!- elliott has set topic: ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway"].
16:15:51 <elliott> @topic-snoc #esoteric Gregor
16:15:51 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["hi","http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway","Gregor"].
16:16:01 <lambdabot> Plugin `topic' failed with: Prelude.last: empty list
16:16:04 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway","Gregor"].
16:16:10 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway"].
16:16:31 <nooodl> @topic-snoc #esoteric I do not know the channel Gregor
16:16:31 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway","I do not know the channel Gregor"].
16:16:31 <kmc> imo let's not do this
16:16:42 <elliott> let's do this all the time
16:17:06 <Taneb> Standing behind himj
16:17:32 <Taneb> kmc, where's your knife drawer?
16:17:37 <Taneb> I need to put this away
16:18:16 <kmc> up your butt
16:18:19 <nooodl> i'm in Taneb's house but he's not home
16:18:33 <Gregor> @topic-snoc #esoteric I presume that I could break it by just making the topic so long that it cuts off. I doubt that it appropriately limits it, so instead it will simply create an array that doesn't parse, and with an array that doesn't parse, @topic-snoc will no longer understand the topic. This is just an assumption of course, but it's an assumption I intend to test with this very topic. Shoot, I've run out of things to say but I am not yet confident that thi
16:18:34 <Gregor> s is long enough. Hmmm... yeah, this is probably long enough, right? I guess I should have counted. Eenie meenie minie... now.
16:18:34 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/","hi","\226\152\186","bike","norway","I do not know the channel Gregor","I presume that I could break it by just making the topic so long that it cuts off. I doubt that it appropriately limits it, so instead it will simply create an array that doesn't parse, and with an array that doesn't parse, @topic-snoc will no longer understand the topic. This is ju.
16:18:38 <kmc> i'm not home either
16:18:51 <Taneb> Then where did I get this knife
16:18:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `topic' failed with: Prelude.last: empty list
16:18:58 <lambdabot> Topic does not parse. Should be of the form ["...",...,"..."]
16:18:59 <kmc> then who was knife
16:19:16 -!- lambdabot has set topic: [].
16:19:26 <elliott> @topic-cons #esoteric http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
16:19:27 -!- lambdabot has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/"].
16:19:35 -!- Gregor has set topic: ["http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/" FUCK THE POLICE].
16:19:37 <kmc> Gregor: did you try building umlbox with linux >3.7 yet?
16:20:07 <Gregor> I don't update it frequently.
16:20:10 <HackEgo> Linux version 3.7.0-umlbox (root@codu.org) (gcc version 4.4.5 (Debian 4.4.5-8) ) #1 Wed Feb 13 23:30:40 UTC 2013
16:20:13 <nooodl> @topic-(\x -> x ++ reverse x) #esoteric
16:20:14 <kmc> it breaks on this 3.9 release candidate; i haven't debugged it yet though
16:20:40 <Gregor> kmc: I assume that Linux/uml builds, but umlbox fails for some reason?
16:20:53 <kmc> it builds, but running umlbox just produces 'Terminated'
16:21:03 <elliott> i had that problem too iirc
16:21:07 <elliott> the solution is to get a binary from gregor
16:21:16 <Gregor> Can you pastebin a verbose log?
16:21:22 <kmc> maybe later, at work atm
16:21:30 <kmc> it works fine with 3.7 which is what the script wants to build
16:21:37 <kmc> i just wanted to test a newer kernel to see if the bug I found in UML is still present
16:21:42 <Gregor> Right, sorry, I misunderstood.
16:21:49 <kmc> no worries
16:22:06 <kmc> i don't have a good sense of how widely used UML is
16:22:14 <kmc> possibly it's just broken in 3.9?
16:22:23 <Gregor> With myself, my bot, and you, I estimate three users.
16:22:52 <kmc> well people used to sell UML-based Linux VPSes, right?
16:22:56 <kmc> but probably not much anymore
16:23:01 <Gregor> Yeah, but it's been entirely overtaken by Xen.
16:23:17 <kmc> because Xen is faster and less janky?
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16:27:17 <Gregor> kmc: For what it's worth, 3.8.6 works for me.
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16:36:48 <Gregor> kmc: It looks like Linux didn't build with initrd support.
16:37:07 <kmc> ah, maybe the config file needs tweaking for 3.9?
16:37:16 <Gregor> Maybe it has a different default name for init?
16:37:43 <Gregor> No, that's not it either...
16:37:50 <Gregor> Damnation, I'm really not sure >_>
16:38:08 <Gregor> Maybe root=ram0 is a necessary option now, not implied by initrd=?
16:39:27 <Gregor> Yeah, this requires investigation.
16:39:36 <Gregor> But it's something to do with loading init.
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17:17:16 <Vorpal> <Gregor> With myself, my bot, and you, I estimate three users. <-- 4, I use it too
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18:33:47 <dudu_> how about a lang where you make a potion recipe and it might explode
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18:34:38 <elliott> dudu_: hi GOMadWarrior, hi Regis
18:34:46 <elliott> why are you using webchat are you on another computer
18:34:54 <elliott> sometimes i am on another computer :(
18:34:58 <dudu_> im on my brothers pc
18:35:00 <elliott> i am going to sleep now though!
18:35:47 <Bike> elliott: Did you know that food older than you still exists? It's true.
18:36:24 <Bike> Unprepared food!
18:37:43 <boily> sashimi d'elliott à la sauce tartare.
18:39:19 <dudu_> a language without numbers
18:40:07 <dudu_> or strings, you can only have lists of lists
18:41:06 <Bike> learn lambda calculus.
18:42:04 <dudu_> recursive functions and all that
18:43:02 <Bike> Yes but you can encode everything as functions pretty easily. Or as lists.
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18:44:16 <Taneb> I like tartar sauce
18:45:22 <boily> at all-you-can-eat buffets here you can order surf clam sashimi. that thing is addictive.
18:45:55 <boily> Saturday I had a nice fish'n'chips with tartar sauce, but it wasn't as good as my mom's.
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18:47:22 <boily> that's the problem of having moved to the next city over: you get to miss your mom's cooking. *sigh*
18:51:04 <boily> they at least pretend to have cities, which considering canada's average existence level is relatively significative.
18:53:46 <ThatOtherPerson> I can confirm that Canada has cities; I have been to some.
18:54:19 <Gregor> I've been to one, but they don't use the term "litter" properly, so I have to assume that they're savages.
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19:08:44 <Vorpal> <Gregor> UML or umlbox? <-- umlbox
19:08:54 <Vorpal> Gregor, which means I'm indirectly using UML too
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19:12:39 <Gregor> Vorpal: Was just curious ;)
19:12:49 <Gregor> Really, 'twas just a joke about UML's use. I think it's pretty limited.
19:15:06 <pikhq> Amusingly it was probably significantly more used *before* it was merged in the kernel.
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19:24:15 <Gregor> The fact that ports to systems other than x86[_64] are between stagnant and nonexistent is hardly promising.
19:26:58 <kmc> i was wondering about that
19:27:14 <kmc> it's kind of weird that 'um' is an arch, but also has code under other arches
19:27:19 <kmc> pretty much necessary though
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19:37:25 <Bike> hire a programming language theorist to do it for you
19:38:26 <Vorpal> copy ideas from a couple of existing ones and claim you invented it=
19:38:53 <Bike> add mapreduce to C, change the syntax a bit, and call it good
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19:39:00 <Gregor> Take an existing language from academia, make it use braces and keywords like "class" so that people will feel comfortable with it, and sell it.
19:39:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
19:39:24 <Vorpal> boily, = is next to ? on Swedish keyboards
19:39:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486.
19:39:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
19:40:30 <boily> Vorpal: there are heretics here that change their keyboard layout to AZERTY. *shudders*
19:40:43 <oerjan> Gregor: stealth deletion of a quote
19:40:44 <Bike> Do you mean how are threads implemented?
19:40:52 <oerjan> just as i was editing it
19:41:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21258
19:41:14 <Gregor> Well the punishment for that is death, not banishment.
19:41:54 <Bike> wow that alternate universe thing went on for a while
19:42:05 <Vorpal> <boily> Vorpal: there are heretics here that change their keyboard layout to AZERTY. *shudders* <-- where is that?
19:42:11 <oerjan> Gregor: btw i suspect your logs' quit filtering doesn't handle kicks properly
19:42:34 <Gregor> oerjan: I've fixed that like twenty times how could it still be broken >_O
19:42:36 <boily> here is Montréal, heretics are Frenchmen, *shudders* are on my back.
19:42:37 <Vorpal> <Bike> wow that alternate universe thing went on for a while <-- what is the context?
19:43:02 <oerjan> Gregor: well just _look_ at the order of Phantom_Hoover's quits/joins in http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-04-09.txt
19:43:53 <Bike> GOMADWarrior: Basically you switch execution context back and forth really fast. I recommend reading a book.
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19:44:57 <Bike> Then you don't have time for threading.
19:45:11 <Taneb> GOMADWarrior, read both books at the same time
19:46:52 <GOMADWarrior> this? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.threading.executioncontext.aspx
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19:47:28 <Bike> Yeah, probably.
19:47:38 <Bike> I just meant "execution context" as... the context of execution.
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19:48:44 <kmc> @ask zzo38 What kind of compression (if any) do you use on .dvi files?
19:49:44 <Taneb> Anyone here living near a tacky Finnish shop for tourists?
19:50:36 <oerjan> shockingly, i suspect trondheim might not have any tacky finnish shops for tourists at all. but i'm not sure.
19:51:30 <boily> ~duck tacky finnish
19:52:13 <oerjan> oh right, in finland probably even the tourist shops have designers. so nothing tacky to be seen anywhere, hth
19:55:28 <boily> reading quotes at work is colleague-unfriendly.
19:56:16 <olsner> sounds work-unfriendly too
19:58:00 <boily> btw, what is feather?
19:58:33 <olsner> it's that stuff on birds
19:58:46 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/feather
20:03:01 <HackEgo> 249) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
20:04:40 <Gregor> I just got that his name is a pun for "treat her right"
20:06:13 * boily chairfalls in stupor
20:08:29 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:10:02 <HackEgo> 441) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
20:10:14 <Taneb> Wrong me quote, hang on
20:10:18 <HackEgo> 411) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
20:10:19 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> in the time it takes light to travel from Hexham to Finland, I can generate almost 20 new topics for #esoteric
20:10:23 <HackEgo> 1019) <kmc> in the time it takes light to travel from Hexham to Finland, I can generate almost 20 new topics for #esoteric
20:10:56 <Taneb> I find the fact that 411 made sense in context a lot funnier than 411 itself
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20:12:38 <olsner> hmm, exactly how did that make sense?
20:13:03 <Taneb> olsner, I think oerjan questioned me when I kept saying "I know this from personal experience"
20:13:21 <Taneb> Because I said cows were scary (in the context of comments on a postcard)
20:13:26 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
20:13:32 <Taneb> And that punching yourself in the face hurts
20:13:34 <olsner> oh, in its original context? not in the current context in which you did `quote?
20:13:49 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
20:14:15 <HackEgo> 452) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh god. <Phantom_Hoover> I've become a metallurgy hipster.
20:14:20 <Bike> I'd like to confirm that cows are scary.
20:14:40 <Gregor> Bike: You misspelled "tasty".
20:14:54 <Bike> The two properties are not mutually exclusive.
20:15:19 <olsner> cowness and scariness are mutually inclusive
20:16:18 <Vorpal> I wouldn't call cows scary. Bulls on the other hand...
20:17:35 <olsner> cows intentionally lull you into a false sense of security by acting docile and uninterested
20:18:22 <Vorpal> boily, yes, but that is not the same as scary
20:18:50 <Vorpal> olsner, interesting theory
20:19:16 <olsner> sort of like cats, but cows are better actors
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20:19:26 <Taneb> http://satwcomic.com/precautions
20:19:39 <Vorpal> olsner, and then they will take over the world in a coordinated attack, with the help of the robots?
20:20:03 <olsner> alas, I don't know what their objective is
20:20:29 <Vorpal> that is even more dangerous
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20:21:58 * boily hides behind his trusty metasepia
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20:25:24 <Taneb> Should I go to a riverborne cosplay event in July?
20:27:46 <boily> olsner: my bot isn't of a bovine predication, thank you very much.
20:28:56 -!- augur has joined.
20:29:50 <olsner> boily: how do you know?
20:31:34 <boily> metasepia: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=8de358fa08f4f238b2b53d88798cd1f68131542e, not stripped
20:32:02 <boily> and, if you poke metasepia...
20:32:18 <boily> thus, it is not a cow.
20:32:36 <olsner> undercover cows are better than that
20:32:51 <Taneb> They're very cownning
20:33:14 <Taneb> They uddertake cowntermeasures
20:33:20 <oerjan> can you tip metasepia?
20:33:53 <lambdabot> http://www.riverborneoutfitters.com/
20:33:53 <lambdabot> Title: Oregon Fly Fishing Guide Service | River Borne Outfitters
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20:36:25 <Taneb> I'm gonna milk this one for all it's worth
20:43:08 <Taneb> While I was watching cowntdown, the letters for "milked" came up
20:47:48 <boily> even if today is ben & jerry's free cone day, cow puns are verboten.
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20:49:33 <Taneb> I guernsey why you'd ban them
20:52:32 <boily> the sole good puns are fish puns. cow puns don't scale well.
20:53:02 <coppro> catpuns are also acceptable
20:53:37 <oerjan> <elliott> canada has cities? <-- faking a city takes less area than a rural landscape hth
20:55:48 <oerjan> ...did you just make a pun that awful on _accident_?
20:56:03 <impomatic> Is there a Doctor Who based esoteric programming language?
20:56:19 <oerjan> impomatic: twoducks hth
20:56:35 <boily> oerjan: no. it was an entirely deliberate counterattack :D
20:57:39 <oerjan> impomatic: i _might_ be joking hth
20:58:02 <oerjan> (a doctor who esolang would probably resemble it, though)
20:59:04 <impomatic> Actually there's a version of Core War with time traveling processes http://perso.ens-lyon.fr/martin.bodin/timecorewar.html.en
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21:02:39 <ais523> twoducks is an esolang that really needed to have been invente
21:02:48 <ais523> it's possibly one of the most intuitive uncomputable languages there is
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21:15:27 <oerjan> something tells me those five new wiki accounts are not all productive esolangers.
21:16:49 <oerjan> wait, eleven, Yago was real
21:17:24 <oerjan> or at least doing something not obviously wrong
21:17:50 <shachaf> Hmm, on Apr 01 I should've claimed an `olist update and blamed it on oerjan's cache that he couldn't see it.
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21:18:36 <oerjan> i only looked at eir combined edits, individually they're rather stupid
21:18:52 <shachaf> oerjan uses Spivak pronouns?
21:19:08 <oerjan> shachaf: it wouldn't help since i have made a habit of adding the next expected number to the url by hand
21:19:23 <oerjan> also i'm an old agora player, so sometimes i do
21:20:26 <Bike> twoducks is pretty great.
21:20:36 <ais523> oerjan: you can check [[special:abuselog]] to see if they've been spamming
21:21:02 <ais523> basically, the spambots haven't figured out newlines yet
21:21:13 <ais523> and so we told the software to stop them editing on that basis
21:21:42 <ion> “6. Out of a thousand-kilogram potato shipment, ⅛ had spoiled. How many kilograms was the school kitchen able to use?” http://fi3.eu.apcdn.com/medium/m_99651.jpg
21:22:23 <oerjan> ais523: well the trouble with Yago was he left too _many_ newlines XD
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21:24:41 <oerjan> ais523: right, they all have except Yago.
21:24:45 <ais523> oerjan: yeah, I noticed Yago's edits, but he/she didn't look like a spambot
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22:07:27 <oerjan> quintopia: i believe that's illegal
22:07:58 <oerjan> but otherwise, see your nearest slave market.
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23:24:42 <Sgeo> shachaf, be happy
23:24:45 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
23:25:17 <Sgeo> Sorry I didn't do `olist about an hour sooner. Was commuting back home
23:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> are you really dedicated to performing a trivially-automated service manually?
23:28:54 <Phantom_Hoover> because otherwise we may have to write a bot or, god forbid, check webcomics for updates ourselves
23:29:10 <Bike> Don't even joke about that, man.
23:29:34 <oerjan> shall i ban Phantom_Hoover again just for the heck of it?
23:29:38 <Sgeo> oh hey FireFly's on the olist now
23:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, are you seriously going to ban me for making fun of Sgeo's lists
23:30:59 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, but i will make fun about doing so.
23:31:09 <Sgeo> <shachaf> Where's the next `olist?
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23:47:17 <shachaf> Sgeo: It turned out to be in #esoteric.
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01:10:42 <doesthiswork> I think it would be fun to program in a pattern matching language completely without the concept of sequences
01:11:11 <oerjan> define "concept of sequences"
01:11:45 <doesthiswork> I mean you couldn't ensure that one thing happened before another
01:11:50 <Bike> data List a = [] | Cons a (List a) or whatever
01:11:52 <Bike> oh, sequencing.
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01:12:14 <Bike> you are referring to haskell's pattern matching being left to right?
01:13:14 <Bike> I think if you don't use ~ patterns and treat variable patterns as matching everything except the other options you've already got that...
01:15:26 <doesthiswork> I don't know haskell but I was thinking of the kind of pattern matching that string rewriteing languages do
01:15:51 <Bike> Oh. Have you seen Thue.
01:15:54 <monqy> see now that makes more sense
01:16:19 <Bike> It doesn't have sequencing.
01:17:34 <Bike> "This segment type is reserved but has unspecified semantics." the heck
01:18:11 <doesthiswork> I thought you could force sequenceing because the definitions themselves don't get rewritten
01:18:48 <doesthiswork> so if rule b can't fire until rule a has modified the string
01:18:51 <Bike> You can force sequencing in getting a pattern to match only something produced by an "earlier" pattern.
01:19:02 <Bike> insofar as that constitutes sequencing.
01:19:31 <monqy> so you're saying you want nondeterministic string rewriting where all the rule's can fire all the time
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01:25:39 <monqy> what sort of reversibility are we talking here
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01:26:55 <shachaf> @topic-snoc #esoteric help
01:26:55 <lambdabot> Topic does not parse. Should be of the form ["...",...,"..."]
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01:39:34 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:47:07 -!- kmc has set topic: am i wry? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:49:10 * oerjan wonders if "imo no" means something in japanese
01:50:01 <nooodl> http://jisho.org/words?jap=imo&eng=&dict=edict&common=on hth
01:50:35 <nooodl> oh i guess there's "imono", "cast metal", too, huh
01:51:23 <pikhq_> Ah, much like "niwa ni wa niwa".
01:51:32 <pikhq_> "There is a crocodile in the garden."
01:52:56 <nooodl> i'm 100% awful at japanese but, if you were to say something like "There aren't two crocodiles in the garden."
01:53:07 <nooodl> would it be "niwa ni wa niwa ni (counter) nai"
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01:53:24 <pikhq_> I think the counter is "hiki".
01:53:54 <pikhq_> Though a bit more natural would be "niwa ni wa nihiki no niwa ga nai"
01:54:27 <pikhq_> And at that point you might as well go for "niwa ni wa niwa no niwatoori ga nai"
01:54:56 <pikhq_> (there are not two chickens in the garden)
01:55:38 <oerjan> wait, which word is crocodile here
01:56:34 <Bike> "what is with this channel and potatoes"
01:56:42 <pikhq_> oerjan: It's Japanese having a giant chunk of homophones here.
01:56:59 <nooodl> you actually read it as "niwa ni, wani wa" (garden <in>, crocodile <topic>)
01:57:06 <pikhq_> nooodl: Riiight, yeah.
01:57:17 <pikhq_> nooodl: Thanks for the correction.
01:57:30 <pikhq_> oerjan: "wani" is crocodile, "niwa" is "garden" or "two birds".
01:57:31 <nooodl> oh i thought you were making things extra fun & confusing intentionally
01:57:47 <pikhq_> nooodl: No, I was just being bad.
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01:58:28 <pikhq_> And "ni wa" is a perfectly sensible series of particles.
01:58:59 <pikhq_> 庭には二羽 <- See, perfectly reasonable.
01:59:11 <nooodl> わ: "3: (Prefix) Japanese-style"
01:59:16 <nooodl> i'm sure nobody ever uses this but
01:59:26 <pikhq_> nooodl: It's used fairly often.
02:00:03 <nooodl> imo: japanese-style birds and alligators in japanese-style gardens
02:00:43 <pikhq_> The etymology of "wa" to refer to Japan is utterly unknown.
02:00:57 <pikhq_> Far as I know it's first attested with some Chinese dudes talking about the "people of Wa".
02:01:24 <Bike> oh, doesn't that date back to like, the jomon almost
02:01:29 <pikhq_> Yeah, "waniwa ni wa wawani to niwa no waniwatori"
02:01:38 <pikhq_> Bike: It's pre-writing-in-Japan.
02:02:28 <Bike> good ol' dead cities
02:02:35 <nooodl> i hope it's just, "those crazy guys with their weird language with the はs"
02:03:06 <nooodl> was /wa/ even a particle back in the day, though...
02:03:24 <pikhq_> nooodl: It's a particle in the other Japonic languages. I'm going with "yes".
02:04:06 <Bike> nooodl: given that it's chinese imperials it probably amounts to "these fucking hicks"
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04:03:14 <kmc> Bike: potatoes are the miracle food
04:03:22 <kmc> they are both starch and vegetable and they go with everything
04:03:27 <kmc> and can be cooked so many ways
04:03:38 <Bike> i forget why you're telling me this but yes
04:03:39 <kmc> you can pretty much live on potatoes and milk
04:09:52 <monqy> corn and beans and potatos and milk? now that's luxurey
04:10:06 <kmc> do you have to nixtamalize the corn
04:10:24 <Bike> monqy, of course, is an ascetic living solely on human flesh.
04:10:43 <kmc> the sheer variety of foods i eat in a single day is kind of staggering
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04:13:27 <kmc> today: lamb, eggplant, olive oil, onions, tomatoes, fava beans, garlic, pita bread, tortilla, pinto beans, chicken, avocado, rice, lettuce, hot capsicum, vinegar, etc.
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04:15:03 <doesthiswork> I don't have much money for fancy things like lamb
04:17:55 <kmc> yeah lamb is expensive I guess
04:18:01 <kmc> meat in general is
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04:49:55 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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05:14:13 <shachaf> kmc: Fava beans? You fool!
05:14:39 <shachaf> I was surprised when I found out Egyptian falafel is made of fava beans.
05:14:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i hear it goes nicely with monqy's diet
05:16:11 <shachaf> @as monqy i don't get it what's your diet ??????
05:16:46 <oerjan> you _could_ look up about a page in the channel.
05:17:32 <shachaf> i read that but didn't understand it so i thought you meant something else but now i get it its a reference to that movie which i didn't watch
05:17:45 <shachaf> @ask monqy NEVER MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:17:53 <oerjan> yes. i haven't watched it either btw.
05:18:00 <shachaf> fava beans nice chianti et c.
05:29:31 <fizzie> ais523: I seem to have been wrong re Humble Bundle ad emails not being a weekly occasion even when they have nothing else to say than the weekly sale.
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08:57:31 <fizzie> AndroIRC seems to disconnect when I leave this device unattended.
08:58:01 <Taneb> Yes, that is a problem with it
08:58:38 <fizzie> Is there a better alternative?
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09:00:06 <fizzie> I have the bouncer configured to replay some amount of backlog, but it still pops up spurious query windows and all.
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13:27:05 <kmc> fizzie: android apps don't run in the background indefinitely
13:27:21 <kmc> you could try whichivere flavor of connectbot has Mosh support
13:27:26 <kmc> and run your IRC client on a remote server
13:31:20 <boily> kmc: android activities get GCed, but you can start always running background services.
13:31:39 <boily> (and, if you're not careful, they can be *very* always running and very hard to kill.)
13:38:57 <fizzie> I don't think I've had the same disconnectation problem with ConnectBot.
13:39:53 <fizzie> Anyway, the point was to run something with a proper text input box, the swiping and such seems to work quite differently in ConnectBot.
13:42:00 <fizzie> Android IRC's description page in Play says "stays connected in background".
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13:44:01 <fizzie> I'd try the "only replay unseen" bouncer option, but that never replays anything, because of an always-connected irssi.
13:49:01 <fizzie> Perhaps I should try AndChat out, its changelog says "Tweaks to ensure service is killable when no servers connected" which sounds like it's doing a thing.
13:49:20 <fizzie> Or maybe it didn't support client-side SSL certificates.
13:54:09 <fizzie> (#firstworldproblems?)
13:56:30 <boily> (I feel like being of a corrective disposition today.)
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14:03:46 <ion> Please don’t use / as the quote character if you’re using /s in the regexp or the substitution part. :-P
14:06:03 <boily> toothpicks shall be leaned with impunity!
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14:53:55 <elliott> > 30000 / 9.81 :: Rational
14:53:59 <lambdabot> 3058.1039755351681957186544342507645259938838
14:58:47 <boily> haskell.org is down :(
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15:00:39 <Koen_> WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO
15:00:50 <Koen_> oh wait I'm not a haskell person
15:01:43 <Taneb> Koen_, be a Haskell person
15:01:53 <Koen_> I don't take orders from you!
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15:03:27 <boily> Koen_: be a Haskell person.
15:03:40 <Koen_> it doesn't work like that
15:04:00 <boily> ~echo Koen_: be a Haskell person.
15:04:14 <Koen_> well you could at least have hidden the command!
15:04:30 <Koen_> theoretically I coudl learn haskell
15:04:37 <Koen_> it's on my list of languages
15:04:47 <Koen_> but chinese and dutch are higher on that list and that's gonna take a while
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15:07:00 -!- boily has set topic: Koen_ be a Haskell person. | am i wry? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:07:08 -!- boily has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i wry? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:07:33 <boily> there, just the right amount of motivation to motivate you to be motivated at learning Haskell sooner.
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15:50:32 <Taneb> `seen ThatOtherPerson
15:50:39 <HackEgo> 2013-04-09 18:53:46: <ThatOtherPerson> I can confirm that Canada has cities; I have been to some.
15:53:44 <boily> he probably tried to check if those cities were still real.
15:53:57 <boily> that's why ThatOtherPerson has disappeared.
15:54:26 <AnotherTest> how do we know ThatOtherPerson hasn't become another person?
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15:55:21 <elliott> probably the canadian conspiracy assassinated him for revealing too much
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16:50:09 <kmc> '"Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead" is now in the UK midweek Top 10.'
16:55:02 <Taneb> Welcome to Britain
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18:20:13 <boily> has it dropped under 200$?
18:20:25 <kmc> http://bitcoinity.org/markets
18:20:30 <kmc> still dropping like a rock
18:20:58 <elliott> it needs to drop further, I still feel like I am missing out
18:20:59 <kmc> "Mtgox trading engine lag: 3707.25s"
18:21:37 <Bike> What's happening?
18:22:03 <boily> there's a mysterious green line split into green lines...
18:22:06 <kmc> one person is still buying at $200 occasionally, lolol
18:22:44 <monqy> so bitcoin is crashing, eh
18:23:07 <Bike> But uh... so these trades are from an hour ago?
18:23:27 <kmc> i think they were entered into the system 1 hour ago, but they're "happening" now
18:26:36 <monqy> Bitcoinity is currently completely behind. New machine is coming slowly. Sorry folks
18:27:33 <monqy> wow it's just dead
18:27:44 <monqy> too much activity???
18:27:48 <Bike> noooo my rubbernecking :(
18:28:34 <elliott> can I buy a time machine with bitcoins so I can go back and invest a lot of money in it
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18:29:29 <AnotherTest> elliott: ask ais523, he seems to know a lot about that kind of stuff
18:30:19 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: well, seems like they are crashing. Unfortunately bitcoinity is down so we can't all watch it.
18:30:24 <kmc> down to $156 from $260+
18:30:32 <kmc> https://mtgox.com/ has the last trade price at the top
18:32:27 <elliott> so that guy who bought a pizza for 10,000 bitcoins in 2010
18:32:36 <kmc> AnotherTest: a few weirdos keep buying at $200 and $190
18:32:44 <elliott> could have turned it into $2.6M this morning
18:32:46 <kmc> but i wouldn't say "the price" is back up to that
18:33:09 <kmc> there are lots of ways to define "the price" but you might take a volume-weighted average over some time window
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18:35:16 <kmc> omg that spread
18:35:22 <kmc> best bid $156 best ask $195
18:36:34 <AnotherTest> https://boards.4chan.org/g/res/32947392#p32949294
18:37:11 <kmc> is what true
18:37:42 <Bike> "OH NO THE MONEY IS WORTH THE SAME AS WHAT IT WAS YESTERDAY"
18:37:59 <Bike> you mean about NYSE?
18:38:34 <kmc> can you paste so i dan't have to read 4chan at work
18:38:43 <kmc> or figure out what the hell even message you're referring to
18:39:01 <Bike> people in mtgox IRC calling for them to completely halt the market for a day
18:39:06 <Bike> >MagicalTux: shut it down. NYSE shuts down with there's a single day dip that's half as big as what we've seen, and in their case *they* didn't help to *cause* it
18:39:38 <olsner> are you using 4chan for financial advice?
18:40:03 <kmc> yes, NYSE has circuit breakers
18:40:13 <kmc> i think all the US equity markets have them
18:41:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i hear the spread is due to mtgox being massively lagged so everyone's trying to guess where the markets will be an hour hence
18:42:06 <Bike> That sounds like a neat problem, actually.
18:42:09 <kmc> yeah I think there's a panic sell that is wiping out the bid side of the book
18:42:17 <kmc> while nobody bothers tending to limit sell orders
18:43:16 <Bike> https://images.4chan.org/g/src/1365616607844.gif Good thread
18:43:41 <kmc> btw NYSE may be where many stocks are listed, and they have a nice looking building, but as a trading center they only have a small fraction of US equities
18:44:21 <kmc> all the actual trading happens in data centers in New Jersey and those mostly aren't run by NYSE (although they eventually got around to buying the operator of one of the main ones)
18:44:26 <boily> (hmm... that stuff is still online: http://www.cgarbs.de/tentakel.en.html)
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18:59:11 <monqy> Mtgox trading engine lag: 4356.00s
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19:07:29 <GOMADWarrior> how about a lang that plays out like a rpg battle
19:08:03 <kmc> GOMADWarrior: you should actually make one of these things, and show it to us
19:08:34 <Bike> what's a "hitpiece"
19:08:41 <olsner> what's normal lag for a stock exchange?
19:08:42 <Bike> and who's "david gerard"
19:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a hitpiece because the guy who wrote it was spectacularly annoying when i knew him
19:09:21 <boily> ~duck david gérard
19:09:25 <boily> ~duck david gerard
19:09:25 <metasepia> By 1484 he had established himself in Bruges, where he remained until his death.
19:09:34 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: dang, PH, you're old!
19:09:36 <Bike> olsner: I would guess somewhere from milliseconds to seconds, but i dunno
19:10:56 <GOMADWarrior> how about a language that only has one loop statement, the infinite loop, and you have to use break to get it
19:11:52 <kmc> not interesting
19:12:03 <kmc> it's very easy to compile a for loop or normal while loop to that
19:12:12 <kmc> programming in this language would not be very different
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19:49:20 <mroman_> that's how some compiler compile it anyway.
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20:25:49 <oerjan> 13:54:09: <fizzie> (#firstworldproblems?)
20:25:49 <oerjan> 13:55:58: <boily> s/#/\/r\//
20:25:54 <oerjan> boily: the channel exists.
20:26:03 <oerjan> only 2 members though.
20:26:49 <oerjan> <ion> Please don’t use / as the quote character if you’re using /s in the regexp or the substitution part. :-P
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20:28:31 <oerjan> (admittedly i used substitutions from (|) (iirc) in my bct interpreter)
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20:30:59 <oerjan> <kmc> '"Ding Dong! The Witch is Dead" is now in the UK midweek Top 10.' <-- XD
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20:31:36 <oerjan> i _did_ notice a photograph somewhere with "The Bitch is Dead" and wondered why they didn't go all the way.
20:31:38 <boily> /close and /quit are not the same.
20:32:56 <boily> oh, yeah. I did chickenise my quit message indeed.
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20:33:10 <oerjan> boily: um you've had that for ages
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20:33:24 <boily> oerjan: I know. I tend to forget about the surrounding chickens.
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20:34:01 <oerjan> (that book title is how i know what poulet means)
20:34:24 <boily> stop butchering the noble French plural, you plebeian!
20:34:27 <oerjan> olsner: aux goes with plural.
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20:35:20 <boily> people here always take English words and conjugate them in French.
20:35:41 <boily> «t'irais tu me fetcher ça s'te plaît?»
20:36:09 <oerjan> boily: that particular case is a quote from very intentionally butchered french, assuming i got it right.
20:36:35 <Taneb> je voudrais une baguette, s'il vous plait
20:37:38 <boily> oerjan: I'm currently actively abstaining from annoying the glorious citizens of this fine channel by quoting other replies from that movie.
20:37:53 <olsner> je suis une petite pamplemousse avec du yeux bleu
20:38:08 <olsner> one of only a handful pieces of french I know
20:38:24 <boily> «Je suis un petit pamplemousse avec des yeux bleus.»
20:38:33 <oerjan> i don't see how that could _possibly_ be annoying hth
20:38:57 <olsner> boily: meh, the s'es are silent anyway
20:39:14 <olsner> and I never knew how to spell it
20:39:42 <boily> sometimes the plural is with s, sometimes with x, sometimes completely arbitrary.
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20:41:59 <boily> (discovery of the day: poulet aux prunes is from the same woman that wrote persepolis.)
20:42:33 <oerjan> i know. even though i only got a handful pages into them.
20:43:11 <oerjan> possibly because they were actually in french.
20:43:39 <oerjan> (in the library. it later got a norwegian version but i didn't bother.)
20:44:01 <olsner> you didn't realize it was actually french until several pages into them?
20:44:33 <oerjan> yes i did, but my french wasn't good enough for my patience to hold. nor was the book subject interesting enough for me.
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20:48:16 <olsner> french is not a language I'm trying to learn
20:49:11 <oerjan> *graphic novel, i suppose
20:51:58 <oerjan> tswett: this bitcoin crash i see about in the logs is probably due to your new esolang, hth
20:52:32 <boily> you need to know the basics in French: «bonjour», «au revoir», «merci», and «mon aéroglisseur est plein d'anguilles».
20:52:33 <oerjan> it gave the speculators too much power
20:52:35 <Taneb> I was trying to think of the French phrase for "comic book" a few weeks ago!
20:53:02 <oerjan> bande dessinée is comic iirc
20:53:17 <Taneb> I had arte instead of bande
20:53:59 <Taneb> My pretty much non-existent knowledge of French playing up
20:54:16 <boily> ah. no worries, then.
20:56:20 <tswett> Mt. Gox says the last trade price is $189; what kind of crash is that?
20:56:21 <oerjan> boily: you forgot something about ears and bananas imo
20:56:46 <tswett> Oh, it was up to, like, $240.
20:57:32 <boily> oerjan: quoi? je t'entends pas, j'ai une banane dans l'oreille.
20:57:37 <Taneb> Wow, Bitcoins are deflated
20:57:55 <oerjan> boily: and something about eating glass
20:58:28 <Fiora> Taneb: there was a big DDOS attack I heard
20:58:42 <Fiora> the price is back up to $190 but like, all the trades are executing with huge delays and stuff
20:58:53 <boily> oerjan: I'll have to check that one up. can't remember what's the "official" québécois translation. I think it goes like this: «j'mange d'la vitre pis ça me fait pas mal».
20:59:06 <Fiora> (the weighted average price is still really high so I'm guessing very few trades executed at the lower prices?)
20:59:07 <tswett> I'm tempted to write some sort of automatic trading program and seed it with, like, ten bucks. See how quickly I can turn it into a hundred thousand.
20:59:29 <tromp_> shouldn't take more than a week...
20:59:44 <Fiora> I'm guessing HFT is a little tricky at least on mtgox, since they charge a 0.6% fee per transaction
20:59:47 <Taneb> It was $13 a few weeks ago
21:00:37 <olsner> another piece of french I may know wrong: les poisson cru est salée
21:01:04 <olsner> that was in the "things that french people will find funny about sweden" chapter of the french books
21:01:09 <boily> «Le poisson cru est salé.»
21:01:24 <Fiora> the ddos strategies are kind of evil though, it's like, ddos the exchanging, cause panic selling, buy at lower prices, stop ddos, sell -_-
21:01:53 <olsner> Fiora: the hours of lag might be a bigger obstacle to HFT?
21:02:19 <Fiora> well yes trying to do HFT during a DDOS is probably a horrid idea too XD
21:02:27 <kmc> i think the "DDoS" is that a bunch of people tried to sell their bitcoins all at once
21:02:33 <kmc> and MtGox is shitty so this caused them to fall over
21:02:41 <tromp_> $13 was a few months ago
21:02:53 <Taneb> tromp_, I've lost all track of time
21:02:54 <boily> oerjan: found the canonical glass form: «J'peux bouffer d'la vitre, ça m'fa pas mal.»
21:03:09 <kmc> tswett: just because the last trade was at $189 doesn't mean that "the price has recovered" to there
21:03:26 <Fiora> the weighted average is probably the best thing to look at
21:03:26 <kmc> throughought the crash there were people occasionally buying for $40+ more than the rest of the trades
21:03:29 <kmc> the spreads got crazy huge
21:03:36 <kmc> volume-weighted average price is legit
21:03:41 <Bike> so what's that down to
21:03:43 <kmc> Fiora: really? over what time window?
21:03:51 <Fiora> I think it's one day
21:04:01 <kmc> let's see what it is tomorrow :)
21:04:01 <Fiora> But like, I watched it during the crash, it didn't go down much
21:04:06 <kmc> that's not true
21:04:07 <Fiora> I'm guessing very few trades were executing during it
21:04:12 <kmc> https://data.mtgox.com/api/0/png/24hours.png?Currency=USD
21:04:13 <Fiora> um, I meant the weighted average didn't
21:04:40 <kmc> well there was half a day of normal trading before the crash
21:05:01 <Bike> tomorrow <-- how am i supposed to wait that long for my schadenfreude!
21:05:18 <Fiora> I dunno, I'm kinda wondering how anyone could sell when the exchange was lagging that much XD
21:05:30 <Fiora> and the market depth indicator is still down... -_-
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21:07:06 <boily> that thing is vile: http://foodbeast.com/content/2013/04/08/po-boy-ramen-sandwich-for-when-youre-desperate-and-out-of-bread/#.UWSVqJNwqjQ
21:07:20 <Fiora> hmm. I wonder if you could actually judge the volume of the low-price trades by watching the rate of change of the weighted average
21:07:36 <Fiora> since I'm guessing it gets periodically recalculated?
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21:11:33 <Bike> "As one of the oldest and most established Bitcoin businesses in operation today, Mt.Gox K.K. has developed a reputation based on reliability and stability, allowing users to trade with confidence."
21:11:34 <boily> according to my phone, I have ~0,0504 CAD in bitcoins.
21:11:56 <Bike> And they're registered in Japan for some reason.
21:12:47 <Bike> https://www.tibanne.com/ Did you know that Tibanne is a company incorporated in Tokyo (Japan) in 2009?
21:13:23 <Fiora> I think they're like the one bitcoin exchange/tool that was hacked and actually covered all the losses, so maybe comparatively they are reliable and stable? XD
21:13:46 <kmc> Bike: https://mtgox.com/img/quote.gif
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21:13:52 <boily> Bike: is there anything else to know about Tibanne?
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21:14:14 <Bike> kmc: yeah i noticed that in that bitcoin stalker paper fiora linked
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21:15:36 <Fiora> "if trades now are $1 less than 24 hours ago, and the volume is the same, the average will change by 1/24 dollars per hour" <-- this is correct right
21:16:56 <Fiora> and I guess if you count volume, then it'd be 1/24 * (volume now / volume then)
21:22:22 <oerjan> Fiora: only if the average volume is the same for the entire time between as well
21:23:02 <Fiora> true.... *super rough estimations*
21:24:02 <oerjan> and that's for your first line, i'm too lazy to check your second one
21:25:30 <Fiora> kmc: okay my wildly crazy guesstimate math says the average sale price during the crash was around 175-180
21:25:37 <Fiora> where the crash is the past 4 hours ish I guess
21:26:26 <Fiora> and the official numbers say volume was 75k in the past 4 hours, and 150k in the past 24! so 75000 bitcoins were sold at around 175-180 average. wildly guessing <.<
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21:29:21 <Fiora> but if you want schadenfreude maybe find the people investing in bitcoin hedge funds? XD
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21:34:11 <Fiora> oh um, unrelatedly kmc bike was talking about your breakpoint/interrupt stuff
21:34:34 <kmc> what about it
21:35:01 <Fiora> he was um, I think he was looking at SBCL's allocator and the way it handled interrupts with this weird pseudo-atomic thing?
21:36:22 <Bike> oh, yeah, it uses a BREAK to run interrupts deferred during a pseudoatomic section, i guess
21:36:49 <olsner> hmm, I recognize this topic
21:37:30 <Fiora> it stores EBP in some FS-indexed thread local data structure, then if an interrupt hits it sets some flag there, and then it xors it at the end of the allocation, and checks to see if it's zero?
21:37:36 <Fiora> and if not it signals a trap
21:40:03 <Fiora> like I am kind of half-guessing at what it does
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22:07:07 <Fiora> kmc: okay it's schadenfreude time, bitcoin is now down to 138 and falling XD
22:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> for shits and giggles i checked the bitcoin subreddit, it's... amusing
22:10:05 <monqy> whats the shits to giggles ratio here
22:10:24 <Fiora> yeah, but like, the exchange was being ddossed before
22:10:24 <elliott> so i guess it is "recovering"
22:10:26 <Fiora> but now it seems to be working
22:10:32 <Fiora> it went bac up to about $200 as the ddos ended
22:10:36 <Fiora> and then... crashed again
22:10:38 <elliott> i mean... 138 is still a lot
22:11:01 <elliott> however i find its output completely unreadable
22:11:11 <Fiora> oooh. that's a cool chart thing
22:11:42 <elliott> bitcoins sort of remind me of eve online
22:11:54 <Fiora> I don't think even ISK was that volatile
22:12:13 <elliott> microcosms of incredibly deep RL-mimicking politics that spill out into the world at large
22:12:31 <elliott> and probably better to watch from a distance than get involved in
22:12:43 <Bike> also everyone's a twenty-something dude?
22:12:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought getting involved in eve was one of your inevitable life goals
22:13:09 <elliott> Bike: does this mean we can extend it to startups
22:13:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's more like having nightmares about falling into a life of drugs and sin and fearing they may one day come true
22:14:14 <Fiora> there's definitely that weird feeling when the internet spills out into reality like that
22:14:21 <Fiora> like. reading news articles about -bitcoin hedge funds-
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22:15:57 <kmc> or the other way, like when one of the most prominent EVE players was killed by terrorists in Benghazi
22:16:01 <kmc> (also a SA mod)
22:16:09 <Bike> that was so weird
22:16:21 <elliott> i wonder how viable it is to speculate ISK...
22:16:32 <Bike> also had the concrete effect for me that a lot of dumbassed EVE players decided to talk about glassing Libya in SA's middle east thread
22:16:51 <Fiora> it's probably hard because the only decent way I remember to convert dollars<->ISK is with PLEX?
22:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> because it's illegal to trade ISK for real money and CCP will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you do
22:17:04 <Fiora> which isn't really... like. I don't think you can buy dollars with PLEX
22:17:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are you saying illegal things are always not viable
22:17:07 <Fiora> at least not legally
22:17:17 <Bike> You could speculate for more ISK, couldn't you?
22:17:24 <Phantom_Hoover> because otherwise they're subject to icelanding banking regulations
22:17:35 <Fiora> and it being against the ToS would increase a pretty hefty cost to trades back to dollars, I'd imagine
22:17:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yes but the idea is that you are a sufficiently good criminal and get away with it
22:17:45 <Fiora> so it'd be a lot harder to profit because of that premium
22:18:41 <Bike> guess you have to be good enough about speculation to beat that!
22:19:36 <elliott> does eve have like, stocks
22:20:41 <Bike> oh fuck it could be a practical application of that paper about arbitrage when you have FTL
22:21:30 <Fiora> elliott: yeah, but no regulation :p
22:21:38 <Fiora> investment scaaaaaams~
22:21:41 <kmc> i think it's so cool that relativity is an important factor in real world stock trading on earth
22:21:52 <Bike> we need to get krugman playing EVE, people. this could happen
22:22:02 <kmc> both literal speed of light relativity but also the more general idea of "you can't say what the price is, independent of your reference frame"
22:22:07 <elliott> kmc: they like, build computers closer to the NYSE right
22:22:23 <kmc> elliott: yeah, you pay $$$$$$$ to have your computer hosted in the same datacenter as the exchange's
22:22:38 <Fiora> oh gosh, I guess that is true, since there's no absolute reference frame
22:22:38 <kmc> in fact big banks will buy up those spots just so their competitors can't have them
22:22:42 <Bike> well, marginal theory of value, right?
22:22:50 <Fiora> are HFT people actually doing relativity calculations?
22:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, uh, why can't you just use earth as a reference frame
22:22:56 <Bike> things don't have objective value
22:23:11 <kmc> Fiora: not calculations per se, that i know of, but you definitely care about the time it takes light to travel on this or that path
22:23:13 <elliott> Fiora: well, they're surely going to at least measure their ping
22:23:14 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: "the earth is down, therefore gold is $400"
22:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean there aren't exactly any stock exchanges in geostationary orbit
22:23:31 <kmc> light travels about 1/3 slower in optical fiber, so some people use microwave links instead
22:23:40 <Fiora> I remember reading a thing where they were proposing using neutrinos sent through the earth to gain a latency edge
22:23:45 <kmc> Fiora: >_<
22:24:10 <elliott> HFT sounds like a lot of fun to work on
22:24:10 <Fiora> http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2012/04/30/neutrinos-to-give-high-frequency-traders-the-millisecond-edge/
22:24:14 <Bike> we need a blockbuster movie about having to nuke the core of the earth to restart it after it's been flooded by neutrinos from greedy captain planet villains
22:24:18 <kmc> elliott: yep
22:24:23 <Fiora> yeah, I've heard horrid things about working in that industry ;-;
22:24:26 <kmc> elliott: also the code is shit qualityp
22:24:35 <Fiora> where people go in, work insane hours, and burn themselves out in two years for the hope of huge payouts
22:24:36 <Bike> elliott: isn't quant like the worst job and also best paying job for math people.
22:24:54 <elliott> kmc: i know there are a few HFT firms that use Haskell, i wonder if their code is any better than the average
22:24:58 <kmc> most industries have deadline pressure but in HFT there's no deadline per se, it's just every day you don't trade you are leaving money on the ground
22:25:17 <Bike> elliott: unsafeCoerce for speed
22:25:18 <kmc> so everyone just copy-pastes the last similar thing, hacks it up real quick, and starts trading ASAP
22:25:26 <elliott> Bike: well we do that in lens too
22:25:33 <elliott> wait, I think edwardk works as a quant.
22:25:40 <Bike> IT'S ALL COMING TOGETHER
22:25:43 <kmc> doesn't edwardk build analysis software
22:26:14 <kmc> butt algorithms
22:26:33 <Bike> the high frequency porn trading circuit
22:27:59 <elliott> A Reddit user posted a graphic showing the Spartans' shields from the movie 300 redesigned as Bitcoins with the word HOLD! across the top.
22:28:54 <Fiora> quality journalism!
22:29:24 <elliott> Bitcoin Fanboy Makes Awesome Graphic Telling Others To Stay Strong In The Face Of Collapse
22:29:30 <elliott> Bitcoins are crashing today.
22:29:31 <elliott> They're down from over $260 earlier to under $190.
22:29:31 <elliott> This graphic was posted to Reddit by user blood4thegood to encourage fellow Bitcoiners to hold strong and not sell into this panic.
22:29:33 <elliott> this is actually an article
22:29:42 <Bike> on... Business Insider?
22:29:46 <elliott> also they got the username wrong
22:29:54 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/as-bitcoin-prices-collapse-fans-are-telling-each-other-to-stay-strong-and-hold-2013-4 behold
22:31:01 <Bike> http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/516571b3ecad04492200001b-918-689/Bitcoin-billionaire.png these are some good articles
22:31:37 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> because it's illegal to trade ISK for real money and CCP will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you do <-- something tells me you were _not_ speaking about icelandic krona anyhow
22:32:09 <elliott> oerjan: icelandic fake krona
22:32:34 <elliott> Bike: where... where is the billionaire
22:33:45 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:33:51 <Bike_> There are snippets of information: he or she claims that they were an "early adopter," and had forgotten they even had any Bitcoins. "I am bitcoin," he or she wrote in a moment of megalomania.
22:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> prices do seem to be rising from the second trough, admittedly
22:34:58 <Bike_> choice business insider quotes
22:35:40 <Fiora> a massive bitcoin crash occurs! it must be because of this random redditor who gave away 50 coins
22:36:03 <Bike_> elliott: http://www.businessinsider.com/who-is-bitcoinbillionaire-2013-4
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22:36:07 <coppro> elliott: how did you deregister yourself accidentally?
22:37:22 <kmc> oh humans, what won't you attribute to some mysterious agent in order to insulate yourself from the blind terror of the world
22:37:48 <Bike> no that's actually about a guy who gave away a few tens of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins
22:38:09 <Bike> and then ended with a ron paul quote
22:38:39 <elliott> http://www.reddit.com/r/bitcointip/comments/1c1hp2/a_4680_tip_really/c9c7sfq?context=3
22:39:29 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-billionaire-tips-being-passed-on-2013-4
22:39:33 <elliott> bitcoin billionaire: the follow-up story
22:39:36 <elliott> brought to you by business insider
22:42:32 <monqy> well how else are they supposed to be hip
22:42:36 <monqy> youth culture of today &c &c
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23:03:01 <coppro> speaking of which, your votes make me sad :(
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23:06:51 <Bike_> Anybody know any good papers/whatever on closures being partial applications?
23:06:53 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:07:15 <shachaf> Closures being partial applications?
23:07:32 <coppro> elliott: no, I just don't like seeing blanket against votes
23:07:37 <Bike> yes. that is what i said.
23:07:43 <shachaf> Yes, but what did you mean?
23:07:45 <elliott> well I don't like seeing thousand-proposal distributions
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23:08:16 <Bike> shachaf: If you lift all the free variables in a lambda abstraction into being parameters, a closure is then that lambda+a few partially applied arguments.
23:08:52 <Bike> "let x = 55 in \x y -> x + y" "(\x y -> x + y) 55", i guess?
23:09:29 <shachaf> OK, and then you implement partial application via what mechanism?
23:10:25 <Bike> shachaf: does it matter?
23:12:28 <shachaf> Well, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
23:12:53 <Bike> neither am I, that's why I'd like to read something about it.
23:12:56 <shachaf> If you want papers to read maybe you should read this one, though.
23:12:58 <lambdabot> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.53.3729
23:13:54 <Bike> wow that's as old as me
23:14:20 <shachaf> wow Bike how does it feel to be old
23:15:47 <elliott> Bike: that paper is older than me
23:15:59 <shachaf> conclusion: Bike doesn't exist
23:16:12 <Bike> I think we all knew that, John.
23:17:56 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/2-million-bitcoin-pizza-2013-4
23:18:09 <Bike> meanwhile, in bitcoin news
23:18:29 <elliott> This episode is a big lesson and a big cautionary tale: Anyone transacting in Bitcoin is liable to feel like an idiot the next day, as the price surges or collapses.
23:18:32 <elliott> Hence it makes more sense to just speculate, and not do anything real.
23:18:35 <elliott> business insider trying to bring down bitcoin
23:18:44 <Bike> ron paul insider
23:18:49 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-what-panic-looks-like-2013-4
23:18:50 <elliott> Others are saying to put things into "perspective," meaning that Bitcoin is still up a lot in recent days/weeks (that's classic).
23:18:58 <shachaf> Bike: also remember THIS game::::: http://www.abandonia.com/files/games/631/Fable_1.jpg
23:19:06 <elliott> http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-250-2013-4
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23:19:19 <Bike> shachaf: nope.
23:19:34 <Bike> but seriously is this a real magazine because i thought it was but... what
23:19:37 <shachaf> elliott: itym \rainbow{JOURNALISM} hth
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23:20:21 <shachaf> Bike: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAJiCERMxfI
23:20:25 <Bike> "The Overly-Attached Girlfriend Explains What It's Like Being A Wildly Popular Internet Meme
23:20:29 <Bike> come on. come on
23:20:32 <shachaf> Bike: I'd've expected you to know it.
23:20:49 <Bike> i'm not really "a games person"
23:21:15 <Bike> haha is this real dialogue
23:21:33 <elliott> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Insider apparently it's just a website but I think it's meant to be, like, reputable
23:21:41 <Bike> that's what i thought!
23:21:46 <Bike> but they're being very UNreputable
23:21:54 <Bike> dereputable one might say
23:22:11 <Bike> "Deputy editor Nicholas Carlson previously worked at Internet.com and Gawker Media's Silicon Valley gossip blog, Valleywag.com."
23:22:45 <Bike> "It [valleywag] was the first to break some stories, such as the leaking of a Gene Simmons sex tape."
23:24:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: more than one comment
23:24:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's just the only Insider™ comment
23:24:40 <Bike> "In its first post, Valleywag outed the fact that Google founder Larry Page and high-ranking employee Marissa Mayer had dated for months." jesus christ
23:25:31 <Bike> "In journalism school, you would never even think about sharing any gossip of this nature without at least two reliable sources, but that never stopped Owen, nor did it stop other bloggers from picking up the incendiary story and shining a very negative light on the Web server hosting company in question."
23:25:34 <Bike> In spring 2008, Valleywag ran a series of articles on Wikipedia co-founder Jimmy Wales, alleging that he traded favorable edits for sexual favors and donations to the Wikimedia Foundation.
23:25:51 <Bike> the tech news world may just be the saddest shit ever
23:26:09 <Bike> elliott: what, you've never heard of them?
23:26:53 <Bike> they have like... io9 and kotaku and stuff.
23:27:03 <Bike> well yeah it's a web 4.0 name
23:27:16 <Bike> are you commenting that gawker is shitty
23:27:27 <elliott> something along those lines yes, meanwhile
23:27:28 <elliott> And here's what the latter folks understand that the those who are huffing about "Bitcoin bubbles" don't:
23:27:31 <elliott> The most you can lose if Bitcoins go to zero is 100% of your money.
23:27:34 <elliott> The most you can make, meanwhile ...
23:27:36 <elliott> Well, no one knows exactly how much you can make.
23:27:49 <Bike> ok glad we had this talk. i look forward to move bitcoin investment tips.
23:28:10 <Bike> more? move? who knows
23:28:30 <Sgeo> Are there any bubbles where it's possible to lose more than has been invested?
23:28:57 <Bike> One of your disgruntled employees could murder you.
23:29:14 <shachaf> gotta keep them employees gruntled
23:29:28 <Bike> Or you could collapse the bubble so hard the economy collapses, and you're reduced to Mad Max style guerilla startup investment.
23:30:06 <pikhq_> elliott: Anywhere from $1 to $1 google?
23:31:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, the sad thing is i suspect a large number of bitcoiny types think they would be happy with this
23:32:50 <pikhq_> Ah, right, it used capitalization.
23:33:02 <kmc> Sgeo: well if you accept the explanation that the housing (+ mortgage derivatives) bubble caused a global financial meltdown
23:33:09 <kmc> i don't know how true that is really
23:33:15 <kmc> it's basically what Bike said, with the Mad Max
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23:34:04 <Bike> thunderdome, etc
23:34:05 <kmc> elliott: ""You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" - Wayne Gretsky" -- Michael Scott
23:34:37 <Sgeo> I knew 'mad max' had to mean something, after someone was doing an LP that had the phrase "And now mad MAAX" and the LPer commented on that
23:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> more sterling work from s. geo, detective, gentleman and lover
23:36:13 <btiffin> Is the room discussing investing? I have a feeling that with the Cayman Island hidden wealth data leak, there will be a run on gold soon. And jewels, and great huge pirate treasure hoards accumulating soon as the duck and cover proceeds.
23:38:50 <kmc> "I'm sorry, I can't disclose anything about that customer's secret, illegal account."
23:39:36 <Fiora> Sgeo: you can lose more than you've invested if you leverage yourself!
23:40:06 <tswett> Sgeo: re bubbles where you can lose more than has been invested: yes, that's what a short squeeze is.
23:40:06 <Fiora> (which is doubly dangerous in bubbles, since the market can remain irrational longer than you can stay solvent, as I think the adage goes)
23:40:58 <Sgeo> tswett, incidentally, do you think I severely spoiled HS for Aftr.?
23:41:12 <Fiora> it's a really dangerous bit about any kind of short investing, even if you know with total certainty that the price will eventually fall you can still end up bankrupt
23:41:25 <tswett> Sgeo: that seems almost impossible.
23:41:34 <tswett> But I haven't actually caught up, so I don't actually know.
23:41:39 <Sgeo> Or well, in a way that... oh
23:41:48 <Sgeo> *in a way that would bother Aftran
23:44:02 <kmc> Fiora: p. good adage
23:44:28 <kmc> Fiora: it depends on how exactly you're shorting, though
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23:44:43 <kmc> typically you go through a brokerage which imposes certain margin requirements, and will close out your position if you get too far in the red
23:45:23 <Sgeo> If you're shorting, aren't you betting that the price will fall? So you'd only lose money if the price kept going up?
23:45:26 <kmc> so that caps your losses (not sure if that holds up in court, though, if they fail to close it out)
23:45:59 <kmc> Sgeo: specifically, you've borrowed the asset in order to sell it, so you owe someone the return of that asset
23:46:12 <kmc> if the price goes up, the cost to you of buying back that asset to make good on your debt can be arbitrarily high
23:46:15 <Fiora> kmc: well it's just like, either your short position has a margin call problem or it's time-limited (like an option)
23:46:36 <kmc> it's different if you're, like, a registered broker-dealer doing shorts on the exchange directly
23:46:42 <Fiora> naked shorting? :P
23:46:47 <kmc> in that case you might even be allowed to do naked shorts
23:46:50 <doesthiswork> I just saw a blog post about auto defined functions, and all the comments are trying to sell him car parts
23:46:51 <kmc> because they know they can come after you
23:46:56 <Fiora> I guess long term capital management is a great example of it though, they had an investment that was basically guaranteed to eventually rise in value
23:47:12 <Fiora> but they still got run out of the market because they couldn't survive the short-term pain
23:47:29 <kmc> that was the asian govt bonds thing?
23:47:43 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.amazon.com/When-Genius-Failed-Long-Term-Management/dp/0375758259 you should read this thing, it's really really good
23:47:49 <Fiora> our econ teacher assigned it
23:47:55 <kmc> yeah I think when I went to work in finance, they gave me a copy of that book and then I failed to read it
23:47:59 <elliott> naked shorting is where you go around naked except for shorts
23:48:00 <kmc> they also gave us Liar's Poker which I did read
23:48:12 <kmc> elliott: yes, it's sort of the complement of shirtcocking
23:48:14 <Fiora> LTCM was a hedge fund in the late 90s making ~20-30% each year by betting that interest rate spreads between countries would converge
23:48:25 <Fiora> using insanely leveraged, arcane option bets
23:48:29 <Fiora> but then the 1998 panic hit
23:48:36 <Fiora> and they started losing a billion dollars a day
23:48:41 <Fiora> and they couldn't get out of their trades
23:49:01 <Fiora> (it was worse because the money had started to dry up, so they had started making riskier bets to keep the same returns, and they were -incredibly- overconfident)
23:49:26 <Fiora> the best part though, was when they had to go to banks to ask for money to try to get out of their mess
23:49:37 <Fiora> the banks looked at their books, their eyes went wide open in terror, and immediately ran for their lives
23:49:42 <Fiora> ... and proceeded to bet against LTCM
23:50:10 <kmc> blood in the water
23:50:37 <Fiora> in the end the banks did have to bail them out because if they had actually gone bankrupt the unravelling of derivatives would have lost the banks billions
23:50:43 <Fiora> but. the bailout resulted in them owning the hedge fund
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23:51:22 <kmc> bailouts are funny
23:51:30 <Fiora> I think in the end they actually made a profit on those derivatives
23:51:39 <Fiora> it's just that, they couldn't survive the short-term drop
23:51:56 <kmc> like how the workers finally seized the means of production in the US auto industry, if by workers you mean pension fund of retired workers
23:52:00 <Fiora> oh right, I think in the end they had 1 trillion dollars of derivatives on 1 billion in assets
23:52:06 <kmc> and by production you mean the ability to make crap cars that nobody wants
23:52:18 <kmc> the paper value of derivatives can be insane
23:52:27 <Bike> oh burn, quite possibly!
23:52:46 <kmc> people talked about the CDO market being like hundreds of trillions nominally
23:54:45 <Fiora> yeah, I remember my econ professor talking about examples like 1 million dollar exchange rate derivative contracts
23:54:57 <Fiora> but like the actual practical effect of the derivative was way tinier
00:01:28 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen aftran ever
00:09:52 <HackEgo> 2013-04-11 00:02:18: <oerjan> `seen aftran ever
00:10:12 <HackEgo> 2013-04-11 00:09:52: <HackEgo> 2013-04-11 00:02:18: <oerjan> `seen aftran ever
00:11:51 <HackEgo> 2011-09-03 07:36:50: <mauke> when things would be ambiguous otherwise
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00:45:30 <elliott> Bike: did you know coq's regular old instance resolution can make typechecking fail to terminate :(
00:47:35 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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00:50:09 <Sgeo> doesthiswork, er?
00:50:24 <kmc> the purpose is to notify all those people
00:50:31 <kmc> that... some webcomic or something has updated
00:50:57 <kmc> this is the grim post-google-reader future
00:50:58 <Bike> it really doesn't, but that's nice of you to say
00:51:39 <Phantom_Hoover> man i wish i knew more about economics so i could gloat about bitcoins more
00:52:03 <kmc> that's the best reason to learn stuff PH
00:52:04 <Bike> Oh, good move.
00:52:07 <elliott> kmc: what you fail to realise is that slist has existed for like a year
00:52:18 <elliott> well I guess you were probably here when it got invented
00:52:26 <elliott> except it only became automated recently
00:52:27 <kmc> `run slist | tr n-za-m a-z
00:52:29 <HackEgo> fyvfg: Tnaro ngevd Ntriq Fvben abeggv Strb TungOgurePrefba nybg
00:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> and at no point was there a definitive point where it became insane
00:52:57 <kmc> hm 'tr a-z n-za-m' is easier to pronounce
00:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> well actually there were several such points but that's too mundane
00:53:30 <Bike> aren't like nine of those the same person anyway
00:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo appears to be trying to build this into a commercial empire
00:54:11 <Bike> shachaf is actually the monster behind the scenes here
00:55:30 <kmc> shachaf is arthur frayne and shachaf is zardoz
00:55:32 <doesthiswork> I just use rss to keep track of the 250 webcomics I read
00:56:41 <Bike> yes but without google reader rss is useless
00:57:13 <elliott> maybe I should execute plan switch to firefox
00:57:22 <kmc> beyond 1984, beyond 2001, beyond love, beyond google reader
00:57:32 <doesthiswork> I don't think all of them depend on google reader
00:57:34 <kmc> elliott: why
00:58:03 <Bike> why did google shut down reader anyway
00:58:44 <elliott> kmc: well chromium likes to eat all my memory and crash because i use hundreds of tabs and maybe firefox is better at that nowadays
00:58:58 <elliott> kmc: and also, i have trouble keeping track of the aforementioned tabs
00:58:58 <kmc> ime firefox is laggy in a way that makes my whole wm laggy
00:59:04 <elliott> so tree style tabs or whatever might be nice
00:59:13 <kmc> are there not those fro chorm
00:59:28 <elliott> okay there is a "beta" version
00:59:39 <elliott> it seems like extensions make chromium slow and crashy though
00:59:50 <doesthiswork> astral aves is a pretty good webcomic http://astralaves.com/
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00:59:56 <elliott> also I would like to maybe block javascript by default for performance reasons and I think firefox has better options in that regard
01:00:10 <elliott> how do you count tabs in chromium
01:00:20 <elliott> okay there is an extension for it
01:00:22 <Bike> doesthiswork: that's kind of an unfortunate font but i'll check it out, thanks
01:00:23 <monqy> ahh, is this about the elliott problem
01:00:25 <elliott> let me run this untrusted JS code on my computer so I can tell you
01:00:59 <elliott> currently i have 55 tabs open
01:01:02 <elliott> but this is a "light" session
01:01:09 <Sgeo> It (shouldn't) be a matter of running untrusted JS being bad, just running untrusted JS in a position of privilege
01:01:11 <elliott> usually i have at least twice the windows
01:01:18 <elliott> and so far none of my tabs have had their titles becomes unreadable
01:01:31 <doesthiswork> bike: normally it is an actual comic, this is just a short interlude
01:01:40 <Bike> well you're running it in your browser which is your OS so that's impossible sgeo
01:01:44 <Bike> doesthiswork: i figured.
01:01:53 <nooodl> idk how you can live with multiple windows
01:02:19 <monqy> Sgeo: um do you trust your browser not to privilege any code at all
01:02:26 <Bike> no. yes. no. yes. no. yes. no. yes. no. yes. no. yes.
01:02:39 <Bike> the false knight on the road
01:02:58 <elliott> ok tree style tabs for chroem looks useless
01:03:09 <elliott> it's literally a drop down menu you have to click in the toolbar to use lol
01:03:23 <Sgeo> I said shouldn't. Practical realities of bugs aside, etc.
01:03:35 <elliott> spawns a new window for it
01:03:56 <Bike> elliott 1 technology 5
01:04:17 <monqy> just use firefox and get it over with, or does their variant suck too
01:04:30 <Bike> everything sucks in elliottworld.
01:05:04 <Sgeo> Even suckless?
01:05:11 <monqy> well yes hes picky about trivialities that much is obvious. those ui concerns are real but the underlying issue is that he --sgeo..............................................
01:05:34 <monqy> --mismanages his tabs horrendously
01:05:44 * Sgeo isn't allowed to make jokes?
01:05:54 <elliott> the real issue is that monqy cannot imagine being good enough at browsing the internet that you have hundreds of interesting tabs because he is a sad, pathetic person
01:08:01 <monqy> does everything suck in phantomhooverworld too
01:13:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? imo no | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:14:32 <oerjan> Gregor: that's barley an improvement
01:14:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? imo needs moar saurkraut | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:15:40 <kmc> acid cabbage
01:15:46 -!- Gregor has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? imo needs moar sour krauts | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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01:42:29 <kmc> shachaf: you seem to be a verb
01:42:36 <HackEgo> fyvfg: Gnaro ngevd Atriq Svben abeggv Ftrb GungBgureCrefba nybg
01:43:17 -!- shachaf has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? 'course i am! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:45:06 <shachaf> monqy and kmc: hey you know the thing on "internet forums" where there are old threads and they tell you "don't bump old threads"??
01:45:24 <shachaf> if an old thread is relevant why shouldn't i post in it......
01:46:02 <monqy> it varies from community to community, and also what the thread is and what you're contributing and if the thread's completely outdated by new thread and so on
01:46:22 <kmc> isbitcoinstillfucked.com
01:46:39 <shachaf> yes but it seems to be "kind of dogmatic" and across a lot of communities..
01:47:00 <shachaf> it even seems that people would rather have you start a whole new thread rather than post to the old one
01:47:20 <oerjan> bitcoin has always been fucked, and at war with eurasia.
01:47:22 <monqy> well maybe they heard "don't bump" and didn't understand the reasons
01:47:29 <doesthiswork> because usually people start reading a thread at the beginning
01:47:39 <shachaf> well but i'm talking about the "administrators" or whatever they're called
01:48:04 <doesthiswork> if it defaulted to the very last post when the thread got too old people probably wouldn't complain as much
01:48:13 <shachaf> and sometimes "they're all like this thread is locked" and
01:49:01 <monqy> maybe the admins picked it up from the forums they were on as a kiddo
01:49:10 <monqy> they heard "dont bump" and took it to heart........
01:49:29 <monqy> well if you go back far enough they probably had their reasons at some point
01:49:33 <kmc> balls & bollards
01:49:58 <shachaf> "do you want to be the devil too"
01:50:38 <shachaf> [conspicuous nonexclusion of monqy]
01:50:46 <pikhq_> Does that mean Satanists worship people?
01:50:55 <Sgeo> Weight Watchers personal assessment seems to assume I want to lose weight
01:50:59 <Sgeo> And have tried losing weight before
01:51:06 <Sgeo> Thanks, Weight Watchers
01:52:18 <doesthiswork> shachaf: Because it takes time to load the conversation into their memory. if your post can be isolated into it's own thread then they do not have that problem. If the thread is recent enough it already is in their memory so they have no problem with another post in that thread
01:57:42 <Sgeo> What's that thread that was a decade between posts?
01:58:05 <Bike> Weight Watchers personal assessment seems to assume I want to lose weight <-- does weight watchers even do the opposite?
01:58:14 <HackEgo> 708) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
01:58:17 <kmc> itt the weight loss industrial complex
01:58:27 <oerjan> shachaf: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImAHumanitarian hth
01:58:27 <kmc> olsner.troll.moed++
01:58:54 <shachaf> What if my weight is perfect and I just want to watch it because it's so good?
01:59:45 <shachaf> oerjan: does that link say "im a humanitarian i eat humans........."....................
01:59:53 <oerjan> @karma olsner.troll.moed
01:59:53 <lambdabot> olsner.troll.moed has a karma of 1
02:00:29 <shachaf> @@ @run length . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:00:43 <shachaf> @@ @run length . filter ("moed"`isSuffixOf`) $ @show @karma-all
02:00:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
02:00:49 <shachaf> @@ @run length . filter ("moed"`isSuffixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:01:01 <shachaf> @@ @run length . filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
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02:01:09 <shachaf> @@ @run filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:01:11 <lambdabot> [" \"adrake.j4cbo.moed\" 1"," \"olsner.troll.moed\" 1"," \"rbraun.m...
02:01:22 <shachaf> @@ @run drop 2 . filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:01:24 <lambdabot> [" \"rbraun.mberwer.moed\" 1"," \"Slizyboy.moed\" 1"," \"ttuttle...
02:01:27 <shachaf> @@ @run drop 4 . filter ("moed"`isInfixOf`) . lines $ @show @karma-all
02:03:35 <shachaf> I guess lambdabot spent some time around that other channel.
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02:18:26 <oerjan> that ttuttle does look like a humanitarian
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02:20:31 * Sgeo has still not migrated away from Google Reader :(
02:27:29 <kmc> me either but i did download my feed list
02:27:34 <kmc> so what should one use instead
02:29:03 <kmc> `run echo esoteric | tr a-z n-ma-z
02:29:05 <HackEgo> tr: range-endpoints of `n-m' are in reverse collating sequence order
02:29:09 <kmc> `run echo esoteric | tr a-z n-za-m
02:30:00 <shachaf> kmc: My father used to use Google Reader and is using feedly.com now.
02:47:42 <pikhq_> I'm trying to find something else to use.
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03:30:21 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:31:41 <kmc> like craigslist but it's about things Sgeo is interested in
03:32:13 <shachaf> oh man i would, well, not subscribe to that list but it wouldn't matter because i'd hear all about it anyway
03:35:13 <Sgeo> That was somewhat unexpected
03:35:30 <jconn> kmc: |value error: fungot
03:35:40 <kmc> that used to be a lot more fun
03:35:49 <kmc> oh fungot isn't even here, what gives
03:36:32 <doesthiswork> run sgeolist | r13 irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/# hth
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03:39:07 <kmc> so close to making any sense
03:39:28 <kmc> hm HackEgo can't access the internet directly can it
03:39:36 <kmc> it would be fun to run an irc client in HackEgo and connect to freenode
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03:42:40 <kmc> apparently there was a "Where are They Now?" episode of Pimp My Ride where they checked in to see how many of the tricked out cars had been crashed by their owners
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04:14:38 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
04:18:56 <shachaf> i read it as nomic and i dont even know what a nomic is???????????Help
04:19:39 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic
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04:37:05 <kmc> <div id="butts" align="center">
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04:54:34 <kmc> ▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅▅▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅▅▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅▅▃ ▃ ▅▄▁▂▃ ▃ ▅▄▅ ▆▆▆▆▅▄▄▄▃ ▃ ▃ ▁▂▇▇▇▇▆▅▅▅▃ ▃ ▃ ▁▂▆▆▆▆▅▄▄▄▃ ▃ ▃ ▁▂▇▇▇▇▆▅▅▅▃ ▃ ▃ ▃
04:55:05 <Bike> yeah i'm alright
04:55:29 <doesthiswork> that is an interesting language. do you call it amplitude?
04:55:57 <shachaf> maybe i should see a doctor
04:56:34 <Bike> nephrologist, opthamologist, gastroenterologist
05:07:39 <kmc> shachaf: what kind of not all right, i meant, also
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05:12:44 <shachaf> well i mostly meant to break up the monotony of social interaction "r u ok" "yep you?" "yeah i'm alright" "cool" with something else. think of it as an art piece
05:13:23 <shachaf> but as it happens i'm also kind of sick recently, but it's getting better mostly, i think
05:14:09 <oerjan> i hear that's up and coming
05:15:10 <kmc> that would suck
05:17:57 <Jafet> `run python -c $'import math,encodings\nb=" "+"".join(unichr(c) for c in range(9601,9609))\ns=""\nfor i in range(0,100):\n x=i/5.\n y=math.sin(x)+math.sin(3*x)+math.sin(5*x)\n s+=b[int((y/6+0.5)*len(b))]\nprint encodings.utf_8.encode(s)[0]'
05:17:58 <HackEgo> ▄▆▇▇▅▄▄▅▅▅▄▄▅▇▇▆▃▁▁▂▃▄▃▃▃▃▄▄▂▁▁▃▆▇▇▆▄▄▅▅▅▄▄▅▆▇▇▄▂▁▁▃▄▄▃▃▃▄▄▃▁▁▂▄▇▇▆▅▄▄▅▅▅▄▄▆▇▇▅▃▁▁▂▄▄▃▃▃▃▄▃▂▁▁▃▆▇▇▅▄
05:19:39 <pikhq_> Now make it do a square wave.
05:22:14 <Jafet> `run python -c $'import math,encodings\nb=" "+"".join(unichr(c) for c in range(9601,9609))\ns=""\nfor i in range(0,100):\n x,y=i/5.,0\n for j in range(1,99,2):\n y+=math.sin(j*x)/j\n s+=b[int((y/6+0.5)*len(b))]\nprint encodings.utf_8.encode(s)[0]'
05:22:15 <shachaf> kmc: It looks like OS X v. latest turned off the cups web UI by default.
05:22:15 <HackEgo> ▄▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▅▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▃▅▅▅▅▅
05:23:30 <pikhq_> Hmm, given the sampling rate I think the one harmonic there actually is the whole square wave.
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05:28:30 <kmc> shachaf: good for them
05:28:38 <kmc> Jafet: nice
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06:19:05 <kmc> const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };
06:20:17 <elliott> kmc: main is usually a function
06:20:23 <elliott> (this is like when they say the title of the film in the film)
06:20:42 <shachaf> Is that meant to have an rdtsc?
06:21:08 <kmc> does it work shachaf
06:21:56 <kmc> it should do the same thing as perl -e 'while(1){print"\xe2\x95".("\xb1","\xb2")[rand 2]}'
06:23:03 <shachaf> As in, mostly /s, with occasional chunks of mixed /s and \s.
06:23:46 <fizzie> Even though rdtsc has an 'r' in it, I don't think it returns random numbers.
06:26:16 <kmc> seems good enough here
06:26:33 <kmc> we do a syscall between rdtsc calls
06:27:44 <shachaf> How small can you make a Linux "yes" executable?
06:27:46 <Fiora> using the timing between things to generate random bits?
06:29:02 <kmc> shachaf: do you mean the size of the whole ELF file, or do you allow some other exe formats, or do you mean only the instructions
06:29:05 <kmc> for the former, see http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
06:29:09 <kmc> Fiora: yeah
06:29:15 <Fiora> oooh. that's a cool trick
06:29:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/JBJW -- sure, that *could* be the output of an unbiased rng, but on this box it seems to have a larger than expected number of runs of alternating 0s and 1s.
06:29:39 <shachaf> OK, let's say just the size of the instructions.
06:30:09 <Fiora> kmc: maybe for better randomness you could, like, sum a bunch of rdtsc results and pick the low bit?
06:30:12 <kmc> Fiora: that's interesting
06:30:19 <kmc> er i meant
06:30:21 <kmc> fizzie: that's interesting
06:30:31 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, I wanted to keep it as small as possible though :)
06:30:43 <Fiora> I wonder what other terrible things you could use for entropy
06:30:50 <fizzie> Fiora: mooz's Befunge-93 interpreter on the TI-86 used the Z80's R register (some sort of a RAM refresh counter) to implement ?.
06:31:18 <kmc> yeah, that was a common ti calc trick
06:31:25 <fizzie> "timing between things" in general is I guess what mostly feeds /dev/random's pool.
06:31:49 <kmc> the galaksija uses the R register as a framebuffer pointer during the video routine
06:32:07 <kmc> and just executes garbage instructions (which also happen to be string literals for the BASIC interpreter, gotta use those bytes!)
06:32:28 <kmc> honestly I'm happy if my maze program gives different, weird results on different machines
06:32:47 <fizzie> The Hunt the Wumpus Befunge port quite often ended up having a long run of being unable to create the dungeon.
06:32:52 <shachaf> What if it makes people go blind?
06:34:20 <kmc> seems p. unlikely
06:34:29 <kmc> http://codepad.org/FghOek0i am I missing something and not using the least significant bit?
06:35:12 <kmc> maybe some other bit is actually more random
06:35:40 <kmc> hm if you have invariant TSC and your CPU clocks down to an fraction of half of the top speed
06:35:43 <kmc> an fraction
06:35:55 <kmc> you see where i'm going with this
06:36:00 <Fiora> would that affect the randomness of the low bit?
06:36:19 <Fiora> movl $0xb195e2, (%rsi) what does this do o_O
06:36:40 <kmc> stores that 32-bit constant at the address in %rsi
06:36:43 <shachaf> Probably related to that codepoint it prints out?
06:36:56 <kmc> that's the UTF-8 encoding for one of the characters
06:37:05 <kmc> sorry, I missed the context of your question
06:37:18 <Fiora> I wonder if rdtscp would be better.
06:37:20 <kmc> wasn't sure if you were objecting to AT&T syntax (which would be p. valid)
06:37:27 <Fiora> oh! sorry, I wasn't
06:37:37 <shachaf> I'm more used to AT&T syntax than Intel syntax. :-(
06:37:41 <shachaf> does that make me a bad person
06:38:28 <Fiora> geez having more experience with one syntax than another doesn't make you a bad person... XD
06:39:06 <kmc> anyway time to tweet this (that's the cool way to distribute c programs) and then sleep
06:40:28 <kmc> `gccrun 'const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };'
06:40:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gccrun: not found
06:40:53 <kmc> `run echo 'const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };' > maze.c && gcc -o maze maze.c && ./maze
06:41:05 <HackEgo> ╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱
06:41:06 <Fiora> oh. there's no nice way to change rdtsc to rdstcp, they're different sizes :<
06:41:23 <Bike> new favorite program
06:42:01 <shachaf> Fiora: rdtscp because of the fence?
06:42:26 <Fiora> I was wondering if maybe rdtscp might give better results? I'm not sure
06:42:34 <kmc> good night all :)
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06:43:09 <shachaf> Fiora: I tried rdtscp and it also has the / bias.
06:44:19 <Fiora> huh. is / the 0 or the 1?
06:44:51 <Fiora> hmm. maybe the parity of the result might be more random than the lowest bit?
06:45:34 <Fiora> that's super weird though, I'd be really curious about why that's happening
06:45:52 <olsner> kmc: what's this "olsner.troll.moed"?
06:46:19 <shachaf> Referring to that quote, I assume.
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06:48:22 <shachaf> kmc: I get what looks like good randomness looking at bit 2 (i.e. inserting shr $2, %eax after the rdtsc)
06:48:52 <shachaf> If I shift by one I still get long runs of /, and in addition I get some long runs of \
06:49:57 <shachaf> I get all sorts of other patterns shifting by other amounts.
06:52:14 <Fiora> what about popcnt(rdtsc)&1?
06:52:19 <Fiora> does that work maybe?
06:53:13 <shachaf> Now I have to figure out how to popcnt.
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06:54:10 <olsner> I guess the loop usually takes a not-completely-random number of cycles to run
06:54:56 <shachaf> Oh, I can just popcnt %eax, %eax?
06:55:29 <shachaf> olsner: With a syscall in the middle?
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06:58:02 <olsner> sure, that mixes it up a little, or maybe it usually goes through a fast path that just moves a byte into a buffer and moves on
07:01:51 <Fiora> yay for x86 extensions having every instruction ever :3
07:02:56 <shachaf> I see leading zero count but not trailing zero count?!
07:03:17 <shachaf> Oh, even LZCNT is AMD-only.
07:06:24 <shachaf> I should learn how x86 instruction encoding works.
07:07:21 <olsner> there are probably better things to waste brainspace on :)
07:07:55 <Fiora> bsr/bsf can do lzcnt/tzcnt basically?
07:08:11 <Fiora> the main difference with the actual lzcnt/tzcnt instructions is they have defined behavior if the input is zero, I think
07:08:23 <shachaf> Right, I didn't know and/or forgot about bsr.
07:08:33 <Fiora> LZCNT was added by AMD in SSE4a, TZCNT is added in BMI1 (which also nicely includes lzcnt for consistency, so now amd/intel are equal again)
07:08:35 <shachaf> There's always the thing with de Bruijn indices.
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07:08:52 <Fiora> tzcnt has actually a really fun weird property
07:08:58 <Fiora> its opcode is actually equal to "rep bsf"
07:10:24 <Fiora> so you can use tzcnt in code that runs on older cpus, and it will execute fine as long as your code doesn't rely on the specifics of tzcnt (like defined behavior at 0)
07:10:39 <Fiora> it makes valgrind choke though XD
07:11:20 <shachaf> Or at least it did when I tried it.
07:11:57 <Fiora> yeah, but like, "rep bsf" was a thing that worked on earlier cpus, so it's not like it's actually a new instruction
07:13:01 <shachaf> Well, Intel has never cared about backwards compatibility.
07:13:28 <Fiora> oh right, LZCNT does the same thing. LZCNT is "rep bsr"
07:13:33 <shachaf> Are you still supposed to do rep ret?
07:13:34 <Fiora> but that one is deceptive and evil
07:13:48 <Fiora> because, like. "tzcnt" gives the same result as "bsf", I think, when the input isn't 0
07:14:06 <Fiora> but "lzcnt" gives the number of leading zeroes, while "bsr" gives (bits in register) - (number of leading zeroes), I think
07:14:09 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure bsf also has defined behaviour on zero (ZF = 1, undefined value in the register), it just might not be behaviour you'd like.
07:14:43 <fizzie> GCC compiles ffs(i) into bsf + cmovz.
07:14:44 <Fiora> oh. yeah, you're right
07:14:58 <Fiora> it's the result that's undefined not behavior, sorry
07:15:15 <fizzie> And rep ret isn't in the latest AMD optimilization manual any more.
07:15:57 <fizzie> And one manual in-between had replaced it with a three-byte encoding of "ret 0", anyway.
07:16:12 <fizzie> (I suppose perhaps because that's more legal?)
07:16:33 <Fiora> the x86 prefixes have always kind of confused me >_<
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07:17:10 <shachaf> are x86 instructions monoids
07:17:58 <fizzie> Should `? monoid say "Monoids are just x86 instructions" instead?
07:18:46 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
07:18:49 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
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07:19:38 <Fiora> speaking of BMI, pdep and pext look like really really cool instructions
07:19:47 <Fiora> they're like, that weird kind of instruction that -looks- raelly cool, but I can't figure out how to use for anything <.<
07:20:31 <shachaf> Oh no, instructions that aren't in my intel\ combined\ manual.pdf
07:20:35 <shachaf> Do I need to download a new one?
07:20:42 <Fiora> http://download.intel.com/products/processor/manual/325383.pdf
07:20:55 <Fiora> the manual doesn't include unreleased instructions (stuff that's in the SDE, but not in released CPUs)
07:21:05 <Fiora> so I'm guessing when haswell comes out they'll add in the avx2 stuff and all that?
07:21:18 <Fiora> moving it from one pdf to another I guess
07:21:22 <Fiora> oh wait no that's the wrong one >_<
07:21:25 <Fiora> http://download-software.intel.com/sites/default/files/m/8/a/1/8/4/36945-319433-011.pdf
07:21:32 <Fiora> sorry, I linked to the regular instruction reference -_-
07:21:40 <shachaf> I can probably manage 2MB.
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07:22:14 <shachaf> There should be a law where you have to expand all the acronyms you use.
07:22:24 <shachaf> I'll call it the AEL[Acronym Expansion Law].
07:23:01 <Fiora> SDE -> Software Development Emulator
07:23:16 <Fiora> it's a super cool thing where you just go sde -- ./program args and it'll magically run the program as if it had all the instructions
07:23:26 <Fiora> with dynamic recompilation and magic
07:24:05 <btiffin> shachaf: sorry, joking. gtwt, good luck with that
07:24:45 <fizzie> Fiora: I'm sure pdep and pext will be well-received by the thousands (if not millions) INTERCAL implementers, for implementing SELECT and MINGLE.
07:24:59 <Fiora> what do those do that pdep/pext will help with?
07:25:20 <fizzie> SELECT *is* pext, I think.
07:25:40 <fizzie> Maybe bit order details are different, I don't know.
07:26:22 <fizzie> But it takes bits from X that correspond to set bits in Y, and packs them to the low end.
07:27:00 <fizzie> And MINGLE interleaves bits from X and Y, in alternating order, which sounds like something pdep could help with.
07:27:10 <fizzie> (pdep+pdep+or, or something.)
07:28:56 <btiffin> curious newbie question; esolang being what it is, ..., what development platforms are people here using for work?
07:29:30 <fizzie> AIUI, they're the building blocks of almost all INTERCAL maths, since they're the only binary operators; AND, OR and XOR are all unary.
07:29:48 <btiffin> I'm building GNU/Linux based machines for placement in hotel rooms. bash, python, php, c, c++, umm, you know Linux land
07:30:10 <Fiora> http://palms.princeton.edu/system/files/IEEE_TC09_NewBasisForShifters.pdf oh fizzie here was the paper I found the other day
07:30:16 <Fiora> it's apparently related to the pdep/pext stuff
07:30:50 <Fiora> it's basically a new type of shifty-bit circuit that's a little higher latency but can do all kinds of crazy arbitrary bit shuffles (like pdep, pext, and stuff) with fewer gates than a normal shift unit
07:31:13 <fizzie> (The unary bitwise ops apply on every two consecutive bits, so if you want regular A&B, you need to mingle A and B, then perform the operation, then SELECT every other bit.)
07:31:24 <Fiora> the author's done a lot of stuff related to stuff like this, she's really awesome
07:31:38 <Fiora> and is apparently a wonderful simd dork
07:32:00 <fizzie> "SIMD dork" is a nice term.
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07:33:14 <Fiora> I think that is an accurate description of me -_-
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07:35:01 <fizzie> As for the at-work question, I suppose most of the code our speech group is involved in is in C++ (dirty parts of the recognizer), MATLAB (research code), Python (glue) and Perl (more glue).
07:36:19 <fizzie> (Some of the Perl might not be entirely glue.)
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07:39:01 <Fiora> I guess the pdep/pext stuff might be squee material for people forced to work with stuff like RGB565
07:39:11 <Fiora> or other weird bit-level-packed data formats
07:39:57 <fizzie> Bit permutations for crypto, perhaps?
07:40:17 <Fiora> are there formats that do that nowadays?
07:40:30 <Fiora> I remember reading that it was a big deal in DES, but that, well, this kind of comes a little late for that XD
07:40:32 <fizzie> I don't really know about modern algorithms.
07:41:26 <Fiora> I know rotates are still a big thing in hashes and stuff
07:41:37 <Fiora> and AES uses table lookups to do GF(2) multiplication on bytes I think
07:41:42 <fizzie> I have a feeling AES is quite byte-oriented.
07:41:44 <Fiora> or something like that (sboxes or something)
07:42:01 <Fiora> but you can apparently do those with pshufb (there's actually a really cool paper on timing-attack-immune pshufb AES)
07:42:10 <Fiora> and of course now it's all sorta silly because of AES-NI
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07:44:11 <Fiora> http://shiftleft.org/papers/vector_aes/vector_aes.pdf oh yay here it is
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08:52:49 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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09:07:21 <Taneb> Is there a term for when you have two sets, and one of them is a subset of the other, but you don't know which?
09:08:36 <Fiora> the smaller one's got to be the subset, right?
09:10:49 <shachaf> Fiora: Well, they might be the same sizze.
09:13:30 <doesthiswork> but I don't think there is a term for uncertain subsetyness
09:13:54 <fizzie> Taneb: It's called two-sets-and-one's-a-subset-but-I-dunno-which, HTH, HAND.
09:14:54 <Taneb> Fiora, you might not know the size, or they might be infinite?
09:18:23 <Taneb> The reason I want to know this is kinda really stupid
09:18:55 <Taneb> It's about Venn diagrams
09:19:29 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
09:19:50 <Taneb> I want to be able to describe annuloid (?) Venn diagrams
09:19:56 <Taneb> Fiora, tender embraces between two people
09:20:16 <shachaf> Taneb: what i do with my tender is none of your business
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09:21:43 <fizzie> Maybe you could use some sort of a symbol that's a combination of ⊆ and ⊇ -- a bit like ≶ but with the dash too -- to describe your situation. There's for example ⫓, ⫔, ⫗ or ⫘.
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09:24:14 <fizzie> Oh, there's ⋚, I just missed it.
09:24:35 <fizzie> Wonder how much use the "less than, equal to or greater than" operator gets.
09:25:18 <Taneb> "it's probably a real number"
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09:25:22 <Taneb> "that's all we know"
09:26:15 <fizzie> > ≻ ⊱ oh no it's curling up
09:26:15 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
09:26:23 <fizzie> lambdabot: That's not what I meant.
09:27:16 <fizzie> (Unicode: the best thing for people on sick leave?)
09:31:25 <ais523> fizzie: presumably ⋚ is the unicody way of writing <=> from Perl
09:34:01 <fizzie> As usual, there's both ⋚ and ⋛. (If they do have the semantics of the Perl <=>, perhaps the other one could be reversed.)
09:34:43 <shachaf> I would *hope* that ⋚ is a relation.
09:36:16 <Taneb> (⋚) :: Ord a => a -> a -> Bool; _ ⋚ _ = True
09:36:25 <Deewiant> D had <>= which basically meant that both sides can't be NaN, IIRC
09:36:48 <shachaf> Not "x <>= y" ---> "x = x <> y"?
09:37:06 <Deewiant> x !<>= x was equivalent to isnan(x)
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09:41:35 <fizzie> > let (<=>) = ((pred . fromEnum) .) . compare in zipWith (<=>) [1,2,3] [3,2,1]
09:43:30 <shachaf> > let (<=>) = (signum.).(-) in zipWith (<=>) [1,2,3] [3,2,1]
09:44:49 <Deewiant> > let (<=>) = (signum.).(-) in maxBound <=> (-1 :: Int)
09:46:51 <Deewiant> Still needs -2 for isNaN anyway
09:47:47 <shachaf> I just posted to a Haskell mailing list about how people weren't giving NaNs the respect they deserve.
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09:59:43 <shachaf> Taneb: Unasked as in unspoken.
09:59:50 <shachaf> You could be an acting acting teacher.
10:00:20 <Taneb> I have considered it, oddly
10:00:36 <Taneb> Being an acting student
10:00:47 <shachaf> Why did you consider it oddly?
10:01:09 <Taneb> I sort of did a headstand then asked all my friends whether I should
10:01:29 * Fiora glances up, hugs Taneb
10:01:32 <shachaf> What about your #esoteric pals?
10:01:54 <Taneb> I hadn't met Fiora back then
10:02:00 <Taneb> And I was in a hurry, with no time to IRC
10:02:24 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
10:02:40 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
10:02:52 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
10:03:16 <Taneb> At least half of it is
10:03:24 <Taneb> Perhaps even three quarters.
10:03:43 <shachaf> You invented them, and they're modules over the ring of differential operators, but they're unjust?
10:03:58 <lambdabot> *** "justice" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
10:03:59 <lambdabot> n 1: the quality of being just or fair [syn: {justice},
10:03:59 <lambdabot> {justness}] [ant: {injustice}, {unjustness}]
10:03:59 <lambdabot> 2: judgment involved in the determination of rights and the
10:04:03 <lambdabot> assignment of rewards and punishments
10:04:04 <lambdabot> 3: a public official authorized to decide questions brought
10:04:06 <lambdabot> before a court of justice [syn: {judge}, {justice}, {jurist}]
10:04:07 -!- jix has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:04:08 <lambdabot> 4: the United States federal department responsible for
10:04:10 <lambdabot> enforcing federal laws (including the enforcement of all
10:04:12 <lambdabot> civil rights legislation); created in 1870 [syn: {Department
10:04:15 <lambdabot> of Justice}, {Justice Department}, {Justice}, {DoJ}]
10:04:29 <shachaf> `learn Justice is just behavior or treatment.
10:04:36 <shachaf> I'll just go with Google define:'s definition.
10:04:41 -!- jix has joined.
10:05:03 <Taneb> Justice is just an endofunctor in the category of morals
10:05:10 <fizzie> Sometimes justice is just ice.
10:05:30 <shachaf> sometimes monoids are just mono ids
10:05:36 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
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10:06:02 <HackEgo> cohnspihrahbiohlohgy ihs whehre mohth cohlouhrihngs fohrm a doht mahtrihx dihsplay to sehnd you suhblihmihnahl mehssahgehs.
10:06:42 <Taneb> shachaf, D-modules are just modules over rings of differential operators, and someone called M. G. M. van Doorn wrote an article on them which is cited by Wikipedia
10:07:03 <HackEgo> Sihbehria ihs the cahpihtahl ohf Fihnlahnd. Iht's whehre the Fiehlds Mehdahl wahs fihrst syhnthehsihsehd.
10:07:20 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
10:07:39 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
10:07:51 <shachaf> @ask monqy i love friendship monqy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:08:23 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
10:08:26 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
10:08:42 <shachaf> There's a pluraliszer in `?
10:08:46 -!- nooodl has joined.
10:08:52 <HackEgo> gazspacho is a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
10:09:03 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
10:09:23 <HackEgo> Fiora is a freakin' vriskapologist.
10:11:58 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
10:14:27 <Fiora> can we please change mine :<
10:14:47 <shachaf> `learn Fiora isn't a freakin' vriskapologist.
10:15:05 <HackEgo> Fiora isn't a freakin' vriskapologist.
10:15:11 <Fiora> `learn Fiora this is a test
10:16:51 <shachaf> you can't leave it like that ........................
10:17:48 <Fiora> `learn Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose.
10:18:28 <shachaf> wow i thought you were fructose :'(
10:20:39 <Fiora> but sucrose contains fructose!
10:22:13 <shachaf> i thought you were all fructose
10:23:16 <ais523> what's a vriskapologist anyway?
10:23:56 <HackEgo> Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose.
10:24:25 <ais523> shachaf: that doesn't answer the question, and might not even be true because she changed it
10:24:50 <shachaf> ais523: "Vriska" is a character in a comic strip that some people here read.
10:25:08 <ais523> I read some comic strips occasionally, but not that one
10:26:09 <fizzie> We can remember it for you wholesale.
10:26:17 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
10:26:19 <Fiora> I never set it to that to begin with, it was someone teasing me
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10:26:44 <shachaf> We can put you on `pbflist or even on `pbflistdeluxe
10:26:54 <shachaf> Or `smlist. Everyone loves super mega comics.
10:27:04 <ais523> shachaf: I'm not a fan of the `list notification just because I might not be in the channel at the time, so I'm going to check the site anyway
10:27:08 <fizzie> Most of the personal wisdoms might be third-party-set.
10:27:14 <ais523> and also I often don't want to look at the comics the instant they update
10:27:29 <ais523> but rather, when I'm not at work and have some free time
10:27:38 <shachaf> But what if they update once every few months?
10:27:38 <ais523> and have nothing better to do
10:27:43 <shachaf> Do you want to check them every day?
10:27:49 <ais523> shachaf: then I'll likely check once every few years :)
10:28:02 <shachaf> With `pbflistdeluxe, you don't need to be in the channel.
10:28:05 <shachaf> We get the message to you.
10:28:18 <ais523> there /are/ some things that could interestingly do with updates, such as new IOCCC s
10:28:30 <shachaf> Feel free to make an ioccclist.
10:28:31 <ais523> but we normally put those in the topic because everyone here should theoretically be interested in them
10:28:54 <shachaf> I thought the topic was for jokes and off-topic things.
10:28:57 <fizzie> I'd like to be put on the elerlist, please.
10:29:01 <ais523> should we put the UCC in the topic, incidentally? it's not an exact fit for the channel, but I imagine many people here would be interested in it
10:29:02 <shachaf> For that matter, that's what I thought the channel was for.
10:29:22 <shachaf> But who hasn't heard of it already?
10:29:27 <ais523> shachaf: well the channel is a community for people with common interests
10:29:49 <ais523> it turns out that people who like esolangs generally tend to like various other things too
10:31:09 -!- Taneb has set topic: Koen_: be a Haskell person. | am i rye? 'course i am! | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
10:32:12 <ais523> shachaf: fwiw, topic notifications moderately indirectly lead to me gaining a lot of money
10:32:16 <ais523> so they're not exactly useless
10:32:32 <ais523> and nothing prevents them coexisting with random garbage
10:33:34 <ais523> shachaf: well, most of the people here are interested in at least one esolang
10:33:59 <Taneb> It was a toss-up between taking Economics and Drama, and I ended up doing Latin
10:34:05 <ais523> and yet, we can sustain discussions aout other things for a while with many people participating, and occasionally the occasional person complaining in a passive-aggressive way with everyone else ignoring them
10:35:01 <ais523> shachaf: well it was about a competition with prize money offered
10:35:20 <ais523> allegedly a result in computability theory, but it was actually an esoprogamming competition in disguise
10:35:38 <ais523> (I suspect the reason I won may have been because other people attempting didn't realise it was about esoprogramming)
10:35:58 <Taneb> What was the goal of the competition?
10:36:26 <Jafet> A new kind of computability theory
10:37:24 <ais523> Taneb: it was the 2,3 machine thing
10:37:51 <ais523> if you've somehow managed to miss the story, I can go over it again
10:37:59 <Taneb> Nah, I know the story
10:38:13 <ais523> which is why I was surprised at your question
10:38:49 <Taneb> I was just imagining something more like the IOCCC or UCC
10:40:02 <Taneb> Did anyone ever come up with a less controversial proof?
10:41:50 <Jafet> I don't think the proof is the controversial part
10:42:03 <shachaf> I heard the story at the time but I didn't know it was ais523.
10:42:11 <shachaf> I probably wasn't in the channel at the time.
10:42:22 <ais523> Taneb: the controversy is not about the proof itself, but about what it's proving
10:42:47 <ais523> and I agree with pretty much everyone else that the situation is currently poorly-defined
10:43:13 <ais523> and would like to find better definitions, together with a demonstration that the examples in the proof fit that definition, before actually publishing
10:43:18 <Taneb> From this information I can estimate your age! Ahahaha!
10:43:24 <ais523> btw, by "example" here I mean the opposite of "counterexample"
10:43:34 <ais523> as in, something that proves the entire theorem just by existing
10:43:36 <shachaf> i estimate ais523's age at 523
10:43:46 <ais523> rather than "something added to make it easier to understand"
10:43:55 <ais523> it'd be nice if we had two different words for those concepts
10:44:13 <Taneb> "countercounter example"
10:44:32 <shachaf> Taneb: Uh, we're kind of intuitionists around here...
10:44:53 <ais523> shachaf: not in general; I rarely find reasons to use intuionistic logic
10:44:58 <ais523> linear logic, otoh, I use all the time
10:46:18 <ais523> oh, I have a question for #esoteric
10:46:28 <shachaf> Intuitionistic logic seems to fit well with a lot of programming things. Maybe they aren't esoteric enough.
10:46:28 <ais523> how would you interpret "λf.λx.λx.f(x)(x)"?
10:46:46 <Taneb> Same as λf.λy.λx.f(x)(x)
10:46:48 <shachaf> I would like to read it as xs referring to the inner one.
10:47:09 <ais523> OK, so you're mentally interpreting the lambdas as having lexical scope
10:47:12 <ais523> I guess that's reasonable
10:47:27 <shachaf> I don't think f(x)(x) syntax is standard.
10:47:38 <shachaf> Is it hinting at something that I'm missing?
10:47:40 <Taneb> Otherwise alpha equivalence would yield incorrect results?
10:47:46 <ais523> shachaf: it is standard, just the concept it's describing is normally not often used in languages that have that function call notation
10:48:09 <shachaf> I mean standard in the same line with λs.
10:48:22 <ais523> that's mathematical notation
10:48:30 <shachaf> It's one kind of mathematical notation.
10:48:33 <ais523> I did it that way so it wouldn't remind people of any particular programming language
10:48:48 <shachaf> The lambdas remind me of lambda calculus, which is pretty well-defined.
10:48:57 <shachaf> I thought this was just a question of where we put the parentheses.
10:48:58 <Taneb> It reminded me of my days messing with Python's lambda construct
10:49:11 <shachaf> If it's a questionf lexical vs. dynamic scope, well, dynamic scope is crazy.
10:49:21 <ais523> anyway, the most obvious semantic interpretation appears to be equivalent λf.λx.λy.f(x)(x); the λx replaces all the xs, then there aren't any more xs left for the other λx to replace
10:49:31 <Taneb> shachaf, what do you think of mixed scope?
10:50:13 <shachaf> ais523: Do you also have this interpretation for λf.λx.λx.f(x) ?
10:50:24 <shachaf> If so the other x is just muddling things up.
10:50:31 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, but that other x adds new possible answers
10:50:57 <ais523> before you say that's absurd, that's actually what the standard mathematical categorical semantics produces
10:51:08 <ais523> I spent all last night writing a multi-page essay on why it's wrong :)
10:51:15 <Taneb> λf.(λx.(λx.(f(x))(x))) is how I imagine it, ridiculously bracketed
10:51:27 <ais523> Taneb: yeah, it parses like that
10:51:33 <ais523> the question is how the lambdas match the xs
10:51:34 <Taneb> Which contains (λx.(f(x))(x)) which has an obvious meaning
10:52:03 <Taneb> Which can be alpha-converted
10:52:07 <shachaf> I think being able to extract any subexpression the way Taneb did -- possibly with free variables -- is a good property.
10:52:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure I understand where your interpretation comes from.
10:52:35 <Taneb> Which leads to incorrect results with the semantic interpretation
10:52:52 <ais523> OK, so if we're working in a linear logic
10:53:02 <ais523> (λx.(f(x))(x)) is an open term
10:53:15 <ais523> because you're using two xs, but only supplying one
10:53:21 <ais523> there's still a free x floating around somewhere
10:53:35 <shachaf> I don't know much linear logic. :-(
10:53:43 <ais523> the original type system, it's a little unclear whether it's a linear logic or not
10:53:46 <Taneb> You're using it twice
10:53:52 <ais523> but it does require the number of lambdas to match the number of variables
10:54:01 <Taneb> ((λx.(f(x))) (x)) would use it once
10:54:01 <shachaf> But I don't like any interpretation that would just refer to two different xs.
10:54:08 <Taneb> And require a free, floating x somewhere
10:54:31 <ais523> so the problem with the traditional mathematical semantics that I'm arguing against
10:54:39 <ais523> is that it doesn't actually keep track of variable names at all
10:54:45 <ais523> so it can't observe that the two xs are the same
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10:54:58 <ais523> it just sees two lambdas, and two variable uses, and thinks everything is fine
10:55:08 <Taneb> Hang on, are you saying that we're right but unconventional, or wrong AND unconventional
10:55:34 <shachaf> Taneb: I don't think anyone's saying anything about "right" or "wrong".
10:55:46 <ais523> Taneb: I think you're righter than the conventional definition
10:55:55 <ais523> but also that you're assuming too much sanity
10:56:03 <shachaf> Well, maybe some people are.
10:56:15 <shachaf> ais523: Clearly the solution is de Bruijn indices.
10:56:38 <ais523> shachaf: the funny thing is, I think the traditional categorical semantics is actually correct for de Bruijn indices
10:56:42 <ais523> but wrong for variable names
10:56:57 <Taneb> (cf Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download)
10:57:00 <ais523> Taneb: anyway, alpha-conversion is clearly required for closed terms
10:57:08 <ais523> also, I should really read that language
10:57:14 <ais523> the problem with serious languages with spammy names
10:57:19 <ais523> is that I note that they're not spam
10:57:28 <Taneb> ais523, have you seen Binary lambda calculus?
10:57:30 <ais523> and then mentally disregard them
10:57:37 <ais523> Taneb: yes but I can't remember how it works
10:57:55 <Taneb> Essentially like Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download, but with different I/O
10:58:34 <Taneb> (Binary lambda calculus's IO is bitwise, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is character-wise)
10:58:59 <ais523> right, and it has an obfuscating syntax for no good reason
10:59:17 <Taneb> It's not obfuscating! It's perfectly readable!
10:59:26 <ais523> (I don't hate it as much as PH hates BF derivatives, but it does disappoint me)
10:59:50 <Taneb> (it was originally a functional version of BIT)
11:00:16 <ais523> btw, I just random-paged onto Numberwang (your version)
11:01:04 <ais523> I'm trying to work out what made you come up with that operation for determining a command
11:01:14 <ais523> which I originally thought was mod 9 mod 4, but isn't because of the decimals
11:01:31 <Taneb> It's digital root mod 4
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11:02:04 <Taneb> Basically, I wanted any terminating decimal to end up as one of the four commands
11:02:20 <ais523> yeah, digital root normally means mod 9
11:02:42 <ais523> it took me a moment to realise it was different on floats
11:02:54 <ais523> (fun fact: all floats are terminating decimals)
11:02:55 <Taneb> It's defined as the sum of the digits
11:03:03 <ais523> (although not vice versa)
11:03:14 <ais523> Taneb: I thought it's defined as repeatedly summing the digits
11:03:15 <Taneb> Which is well-defined for terminating decimals
11:03:18 <ais523> until you get down to just one digit
11:03:44 <Taneb> Sorry, my thoughts skipped about 10 steps
11:04:47 <ais523> ooh, I just randomed onto Radixal!!!!
11:04:51 <ais523> I like these combined effort languages
11:05:03 <Taneb> There should be more IMO
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12:47:20 <Taneb> What's the best way of working out what the largest natural k is such that n mod m ^ k = 0 for some natural m and n?
12:47:48 <Taneb> (eg, if n = 96 and m = 2, k = 5 because 2^5 * 3 = 96)
12:52:59 <Jafet> > let exercise n m | mod n m /= 0 = 0 | otherwise = 1 + exercise (div n m) m in exercise 96 2
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13:22:51 <tromp_> that's the max exponent in the factorization
13:23:16 <tromp_> but they may be easier way to obtain it
13:25:02 <ion> Thanks for not saying “they=there”.
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13:35:58 <boily> > let they = there in there = they
13:36:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:27: parse error on input `='
13:36:08 <boily> > let they = there in there == they
13:36:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `there'Not in scope: `there'
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14:50:51 <Taneb> ...it is cheaper to fly to London than to bus there
14:51:29 <Taneb> With a complementary meal service, no less!
14:51:30 <Lumpio-> Kind of depends on where you are I'd imagine.
14:53:03 <Taneb> Leaving about half three on June the 3rd
14:53:18 <Taneb> Of course, with a plane, you still need to buy a tube ticket
14:53:28 <Lumpio-> Half three is one and a half
14:54:00 <Lumpio-> We actually say something like "half five" etc in Finnish and that means 4:30
14:54:23 <Lumpio-> It's not even like "half to five" but just "half five" literally
14:54:40 <Taneb> Especially as British English does the same but backwards
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14:57:06 <ais523> Lumpio-: that happens in German too
14:57:24 <Lumpio-> Maybe it's like roman numerals
14:57:36 <Lumpio-> Put a smaller digit before a larger one and it's subtracted
14:57:54 <fizzie> Could you then say "five half" for "half six"?
14:58:25 <fizzie> You can say "five thirty", FWIW.
14:59:27 <Taneb> Even when taking into account Metro and Tube, it is cheaper and quicker to go via plane, metro, and tube to travel from Newcastle Central Station to King's Cross
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15:01:29 <kmc> just think, by 2035 or so you might be able to take a high speed train 2/3 of the way
15:02:22 <Taneb> It'll still be slower and more expensive
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15:08:47 <fizzie> Hey, what do all y'all (that's the plural of y'all, right?) use for non-GUIfic conversion of RTF to plaintext?
15:09:49 <fizzie> 'aptitude search' finds an 'unrtf', which has a promising name.
15:10:08 -!- boily has joined.
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15:11:46 <Lumpio-> I doubt many of us'all use RTF in the first place
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15:17:35 <kmc> shachaf, Fiora: yeah my work machine produces all sorts of strange patterns with the maze thing
15:17:57 <kmc> i like it :)
15:20:25 <kmc> damn, I missed a long discussion of new x86 instructions
15:20:40 <Fiora> I posted a cool paper or two
15:20:59 <Fiora> though I can't remember if you're like bike with regards to subsisting on academic papers XD
15:21:29 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
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15:22:11 <Fiora> "Trading is halted until 2013-04-12 02:00am UTC to allow the market to cooldown following the drop in price. Read more details on the support. Additionally trading fees will not be charged within 48 hours of trading resuming (until 2013-04-14 02:00am UTC)." also kmc, oh dears
15:25:00 <kmc> Fiora: i like to read or at least skim cool papers
15:25:16 <kmc> trading halt at MtGox?
15:25:22 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:25:28 <kmc> bitcoinity.org/markets is still showing trades
15:25:33 <kmc> around $120
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15:26:01 <Fiora> Yeah, trading halt at mtgox
15:26:32 <Fiora> I'm guessing they're trying to upgrade their systems really fast, apparently they got like 20,000 new accounts in the past day
15:26:51 <Fiora> gosh this is a silly bubble
15:28:20 <Taneb> I don't know how bitcoins work
15:28:30 <Taneb> But at the same time I don't really know how any currency works
15:28:55 <kmc> Taneb: do you want a quick technical explanation of how bitcoins work
15:29:00 <kmc> or do you mean more like the economics of it
15:29:04 <Taneb> Right now I want a hug
15:29:09 * kmc hugs Taneb
15:29:17 <kmc> not as good over IRC, i know
15:29:50 <Taneb> I'm on the cusp of feeling really down
15:30:10 <kmc> about anything in particular?
15:31:11 <Taneb> Someone being a bit nasty on Facebook, someone else not being online
15:32:29 <Taneb> So, actually, yes, something in particular
15:37:52 <Fiora> kmc: oh so like, the woman I mentioned who was doing the bit hacky stuff if you were glancing at the logs
15:38:05 <Fiora> bike jokingly called her a personification of IBM but he's not far off
15:38:42 <Fiora> she apparently has like, hundreds of patents, and invented to some degree or another three different CPU architectures
15:39:09 <Fiora> she was chief architect at HP for like a decade
15:39:33 <Fiora> designed PA-RISC, worked on designing IA-64 too
15:40:27 <tromp_> i'm more impressed with the former:)
15:40:54 <Fiora> ( http://www.princeton.edu/~rblee/ )
15:46:55 <boily> we have a snowstorm beginning at 2am tonight, shifting into slushstorm at 2pm on Friday, with a slight respite around 10pm then aftermath until 9am on Saturday.
15:47:01 <Taneb> This is getting out of hand, Tha
15:47:09 <kmc> group hugs are great
15:47:17 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: are you impersonating some kind of octopus with all that large-scale hugging?
15:47:29 <Taneb> kmc, when I do them, it ends up with everyone on the floor and someone getting crushed
15:47:55 <kmc> 'everyone on the floor' is not necessarily bad
15:48:02 <Taneb> Perhaps they're too contagious around here
15:48:48 <ThatOtherPerson> Huh, one of my British friends said that the British were not into hugs.
15:49:00 <boily> if your floors are contagious, you have a more pressing problem than worrying about crushing people.
15:50:11 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, it may be more of a rural thing, or a northern thing, or a rural people in the north thing
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15:59:49 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: they're not very common, although there are a few situations in which they're socially acceptable
16:00:44 <fizzie> Like meeting strangers in a subway?
16:02:02 <Taneb> So, you've heard a southerner, a northerner, and a mindlands-er
16:02:38 <fizzie> I liked the round tunnels of the Tube.
16:03:24 <impomatic> Have you seen any of the urban exploration stuff where they explore abandoned tube stations?
16:03:51 <kmc> tuuuuuuuuuuuuuube
16:04:32 <Taneb> When they were digging tunnels for the Tyne-Wear Metro, they found an unexploded bomb from the second world war.
16:04:51 <Taneb> If that bomb had exploded, it would have killed my gran and great grandfather
16:04:58 <impomatic> Hugs are almost acceptable around here, but a little awkward. You shouldn't hug someone when they arrive. It's sometimes okay to hug someone when they leave. Only hug with one arm. Follow these three rules and you should be fine.
16:05:10 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: because they're awesome
16:05:49 <impomatic> I like anything underground :-) Caves, subways, crypts, bunkers...
16:05:50 <kmc> http://ugcs.net/~arapp/timelines/europe.html
16:06:36 <boily> we have a pretty nice subway here, with all kinds of entertainment and service interruptions.
16:06:50 <fizzie> Taneb: If life was a video game, they'd have blown it up to make a hole to save some digging.
16:07:11 <fizzie> It would have made a perfectly spherical empty space.
16:07:43 -!- conehead has joined.
16:08:06 <kmc> TIL there are sweet-tasting mushrooms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_cap
16:08:39 -!- carado has joined.
16:10:26 <kmc> going to look for Mycena corticola today
16:10:33 <kmc> really tiny mushrooms that pop out of the sides of trees after it rains
16:11:22 <kmc> fungi are the best
16:11:40 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: how's that?
16:11:41 <Taneb> I don't trust myself enough to pick fungi to eat
16:11:47 <Taneb> But I will eat mushrooms
16:11:50 * impomatic is too scared to eat fungi that I find
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16:12:17 * ThatOtherPerson think fungi are an alien life form biding their time to try to conquer the planet
16:12:18 <kmc> impomatic: yeah, identifying them is tricky
16:12:52 <kmc> you can get advice on http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/3
16:13:09 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: bar stuff? who knows, perhaps fnord the fnord giant?
16:13:13 <impomatic> ThatOtherPerson: wouldn't alien life forms still be natural (unless cloned / engineered)
16:14:13 <impomatic> kmc: I can identify a few. Unfortunately the ones which are easy to identify tend to be poisonous.
16:14:27 <kmc> i think oyster mushrooms are pretty easy to identify
16:14:29 <kmc> and are tasty
16:14:30 <kmc> not sure, though
16:15:58 <kmc> spore print is very useful for making an identification
16:16:02 <kmc> but that takes like a day
16:16:13 <kmc> mushroom ident guides are usually organized by spore color first
16:16:16 <impomatic> kmc: I haven't seen those around here. Mostly fly agaric, something that grow out of a tree (beefsteak?), puffballs, shaggy inkcap, and something brown that could be anything.
16:16:31 <kmc> yeah, so many kinds of little brown mushrooms
16:17:14 <kmc> puffballs are neat
16:17:31 <impomatic> Apparently we have blue stems (whatever they are) which sell for 60 per kilo.
16:18:07 <kmc> "blue stem" makes me think psilocybin :)
16:18:29 <kmc> in that case they might be more than £60 per kilo!
16:18:58 <kmc> hm shaggy inkcap is nematophagous (oysters are too)
16:19:06 <kmc> they trap and kill nematodes for their delicious nitrogen
16:19:40 <Lymia> For some reason, I have to connect through my VPS to access the research library server using school wireless
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16:37:18 <fizzie> MUSHROOM RULES: 1) Learn to recognize poisonous mushrooms. 2) Only eat mushrooms that you recognize.
16:37:22 <fizzie> (Yeah, I already did that "joke" on-channel, but since it was topical...)
16:39:30 <kmc> the shroomery forum has a lot of posts like "I just ate these mushrooms, what were they?"
16:39:33 <kmc> i don't understand these people...
16:39:59 <fizzie> If you can fit something in your mouth, it's edible.
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17:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> if you can fit something in your mouth and swallow it's edible
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17:07:08 <tromp_> the part before "and" appears redundant...
17:07:17 -!- sebbu has joined.
17:07:50 <tromp_> leaving us with swallable (sounds more fun than swallowable)
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17:09:00 <tromp_> funny hits you get if you google that...
17:09:21 <Taneb> You know, in addition to a rabbi, I've also pretended to be a king
17:09:32 <kmc> the bony king of nowhere?
17:09:54 <Taneb> ...the young Edward-y king of England
17:10:32 <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
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18:30:51 <elliott> The writer's identify is Barbara Bob and her spouse does not like it at all. Her spouse will not like it the way she does but what she definitely likes doing is cooking and she would never give it up. Years ago she moved to Maryland. Her working day career is a meter reader.
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18:36:11 <kmc> elliott: sounds like Wesley Willis
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18:38:17 <elliott> http://brianmckenna.org/blog/category_theory_promisesaplus oh boy, I can't wait to find out the ways in which this has nothing at all to do with category theory
18:38:43 <elliott> Putting it together, here's the monad class
18:38:48 <kmc> might be all the ways
18:38:51 <elliott> thanks for saying this without even mentioning what a typeclass is at all
18:38:56 <elliott> really going to help your readers
18:39:24 <elliott> function flatMap(p, f) { return p.then(f);
18:39:30 <elliott> HOLY SHIT I CAN'T HANDLE THE CATEGORY THEORY IT'S TOO MUCH!!
18:39:40 <kmc> here are some fairly simple things from Haskell but i'm going to call them "Category Theory" to show i'm hardcore!
18:39:49 <kmc> also not say what a category is
18:40:04 <elliott> The above will work for any monad. List of lists? Optional optional value? If the JavaScript community settled on using flatMap as a method, we could write DRY, generalised code for monads.
18:40:15 <kmc> DRY is an adjective now I guess
18:40:17 <elliott> good thing monads don't have return
18:40:50 <kmc> elliott: sounds like someone is in for a rude awakening in re: monad transformers
18:41:08 <elliott> "So where exactly is the category theory in this, opposed to just providing a sane API? Does the author actually understand category theory? How does it matter that the interface has similarities to concepts in category theory? Is there any valuable proof or construction we can get out of this?"
18:41:15 <elliott> you know an article is bad when the /r/programming comments are better
18:41:24 <kmc> that's rock bottom
18:41:51 <elliott> "By my unscientific count there were 13 counts of monad and 8 counts of functor in that article. That seems well above the expected number given your comment, which would suggest there were no ideas from category theory in it."
18:41:52 <shachaf> elliott: "By my unscientific count there were 13 counts of monad and 8 counts of functor in that article. That seems well above the expected number given your comment, which would suggest there were no ideas from category theory in it."
18:42:24 <kmc> i want a chrome extension that gives me the monad / functor count for every page
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18:43:08 <kmc> 'As a solo artist, Willis created more than 50 albums, each with over 20 tracks, full of bizarre, tense, and often obscene rants about crime, fast food, cultural trends, bus routes, violent confrontations with superheroes, commands for his "demons" to engage in bestiality, and praise for his favorite actors, friends (both platonic and romantic), politicians, and hip-hop and rock artists.'
18:43:15 <shachaf> elliott: is category new monad?
18:43:41 <kmc> in b4 burrito
18:43:45 <kmc> also hichaf
18:45:02 <shachaf> why do you hate burritos :'(
18:45:17 <Taneb> I'm still not quite sure what a burrito is
18:45:29 <Taneb> I'm imagining something like a tortilla
18:45:31 <Taneb> Or perhaps a monad
18:46:28 <shachaf> kmc: imo next time you're looking for a burrito in mountain view you should go to the taqueria on rengstorff & old middlefield
18:47:01 <kmc> not sure if Taneb is serious
18:47:10 <Taneb> (the last line wasn't serious)
18:47:12 <shachaf> hmm, there are three taquerias on that corner
18:47:19 <Taneb> (I am, though, unsure exactly what a burrito is)
18:47:24 <shachaf> you should go to the one in the back of the little grocery store
18:47:25 <kmc> Taneb: it's a burrito rolled up into a fat tube, filled with stuff like beans, rice, meat, guacamole, lettuce, etc
18:47:30 <kmc> a tortilla rolled up
18:47:37 <kmc> sorry 2 give non well founded definition
18:47:44 <shachaf> I never had a burrito before I moved to CA.
18:47:59 <shachaf> I'm not sure I knew what they were.
18:48:02 <elliott> kmc: that just makes burritos codata
18:48:04 <kmc> Taneb: each one will have different stuff; beans and rice are pretty essential tho
18:48:14 <elliott> kmc: you can always peel off the next fat tube in a finite amount of time
18:48:15 <kmc> elliott: true you can 'unwap' each layer in finite time
18:48:27 <kmc> welp time to write a codata tutorial
18:48:43 <Taneb> In that case, I may have eaten a number of burritos today
18:48:53 <Taneb> (there was tortilla, chilli, and rice)
18:49:01 <Taneb> (the chilli contained beans?_
18:53:02 <kmc> seems legit
18:53:08 <kmc> it's a p. broad category of food
18:53:13 <kmc> SF has a "sushiritto" restaurant
18:53:22 <kmc> a v. SF sort of thing
18:53:36 <olsner> is that sushi+burrito?
18:55:49 <kmc> it's a sushi roll in the size and shape of a burrito
18:55:55 <kmc> http://www.sushirrito.com/
18:56:34 <kmc> oh i forgot to mention cheese above, most burritos have cheese
18:56:37 <Taneb> Hexham has a greek restaurant
18:56:37 <kmc> and/or sour cream
18:56:42 <Taneb> Apparently it's crap
18:57:12 <shachaf> Taneb: imo move to california???????
18:57:35 <Taneb> imo fix your healthcare and gun laws
18:58:13 <kmc> fair retort
18:58:26 <kmc> MA has semi-fixed healthcare anyway
18:58:35 <kmc> it's not great but it's less fucked than the rest of the USA
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18:59:33 <kmc> this was one of Governor Romney's big accomplishments before he ran for President and had to suddenly hate that program
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19:42:09 <Fiora> Taneb / ThatOtherPerson: http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/37966564090/ :3
19:42:41 <Taneb> I'VE BEEN DOING IT ALL WRONG
19:43:31 <Fiora> it's never too late to learn!
19:43:34 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined.
19:44:00 <Bike> well, it's probably too late if backs have already been broken.
19:44:19 <shachaf> There are always more backs out there to break.
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19:45:14 <Taneb> (I am a reasonably tall chap who is keen on hugs and has a number of shorter friends, this comes up a lot)
19:45:15 <Fiora> yes but like you can still learn
19:46:03 <Fiora> (in all fairness, I also like the "bury head in chest cling" hug too, but that probably doesn't leave much for the tall person to do)
19:46:46 <Taneb> (I once brought a book)
19:47:49 <shachaf> was it called "how to hug"
19:47:57 <shachaf> i think that was a dictionary hth
19:48:19 <Taneb> It was called Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers
19:48:26 <Taneb> It's a silly pulp sci-fi
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19:49:00 <Fiora> what does that book have to do with hugging o_O
19:49:23 <Taneb> About a couple of college students who accidentally make a FTL drive powered by American artificial cheddar
19:49:36 <Taneb> Fiora, very little, it just happened to be the book I had on me at the time
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19:50:26 <elliott> kmc: why isn't strace nice and simple
19:50:48 <kmc> an elegant modern strace duuuuuuuuuffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
19:50:57 <Taneb> elliott, because it's not part of @'s core utils
19:51:20 <elliott> an strace that celebrates craftsmanship
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19:51:38 <elliott> kmc: all i want to know is why clicking on links in urxvt is broken
19:51:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: he didnt he said duuuuuuuuuffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
19:51:52 <Bike> hey does anyone here like akira
19:52:06 <Taneb> I've heard of akira
19:52:13 <Taneb> can't remember in which context, though
19:52:14 <Bike> not good enough.
19:52:31 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira
19:52:42 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira -- insecure link for people who aren't shachaf
19:53:22 <shachaf> only insecure people click on insecure links
19:54:14 <elliott> http://sprunge.us/FWaP ok so this is the problem
19:54:17 <Bike> though the comic's great too, if longer
19:54:24 <Taneb> Might give it a shot
19:54:26 <elliott> URxvt.urlLauncher: chromium
19:54:28 <Bike> it's four thousand pages or some crap
19:54:36 <shachaf> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Akira # MAXIMALLY SECURE LINK
19:55:06 <elliott> ti was changed to url-launcher
19:55:17 <Bike> "sensible-editor, sensible-pager and sensible-browser make sensible decisions on which editor, pager, and web browser to call, respectively."
19:55:22 <Fiora> Yeah, I remember the movie was kind of confusing just because of how much it was compressed from the manga
19:55:27 <Bike> (what the hell is a pager)
19:55:30 <Fiora> it was pretty though
19:55:33 <Bike> (are we talking like those beepy things)
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19:55:43 <Bike> it's a miracle!
19:55:48 <Fiora> Bike: I think it's a thing people put in their pocket protector
19:55:50 <elliott> literally months with broken links
19:55:52 <Bike> now you can click all the secure akira information you want
19:55:53 <olsner> Bike: a pager is more or less
19:56:09 <Bike> Fiora: not convinced pocket protectors exist tbh
19:56:18 <elliott> Bike you weren't there fort hat time i went like three to four months without number keys
19:56:38 <shachaf> remember those months i went without → and End keys
19:56:45 <shachaf> oh wait those months are still going on
19:57:36 <shachaf> the joke is that my keyboard is broken and it's Bike's fault
19:57:59 <Bike> Good joke, imo.
19:58:57 <Fiora> Bike: I think they have like, the same mythical status as slide rules?
19:59:21 <Bike> i've actually used a slide rule
20:00:10 <Fiora> the stuff of legends!
20:00:14 <Bike> they're actually pretty easy to use
20:00:35 <shachaf> Battery 0: Charging, 75%, 1484:00:00 until charged
20:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Conflict:_Palestine
20:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "Global Conflicts: Palestine is a serious game. It was developed by Serious Games Interactive"
20:01:16 <Bike> Jerusalem facing challenges.
20:01:44 <Bike> "Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator" well i guess that about sums it up
20:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator, often known as ConfMEPS"
20:02:25 <Bike> "One of the main ways to lose the game is for WMDs to be used, which often sets off a global nuclear holocaust. This can present a problem to players,"
20:02:57 <kmc> DEFCON is a fun game
20:03:14 * kmc has also used a slide rule
20:03:22 <kmc> just for addition and multiplication though
20:03:27 <kmc> addition is kind of obvious
20:03:27 <Fiora> gosh DEFCON was fun
20:03:31 <kmc> and multiplication is log addition :)
20:03:39 <Bike> " Generally, it is best to destabilize Iran into collapsing, since this permits Iraq to threaten some of the countries which share a border with Israel." yes. nailed it.
20:03:57 <kmc> i was good enough to beat the computer reliably, because the computer is dumb
20:04:00 <kmc> but i never played much online
20:04:08 <Fiora> I can imagine it being so much fun to play with friends
20:04:21 <Bike> "Lebanon, which borders Israel and Syria, is highly unstable and will collapse on its own accord if another country does not invade it first; in fact, Lebanon will collapse by itself even if the player is always trying to disrupt the insurgency and support the Government. " this is seriously darkly amusing
20:04:33 <kmc> we had a party that included a video of DEFCON gameplay on a huge projection screen
20:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> you have to, like, micromanage every single one of your bombers, and split your entire fleet into 2-ship units
20:04:38 <kmc> cold war themed party
20:04:56 <Bike> that sounds pretty sad kmc
20:05:05 <Taneb> I was crap at DEFCON
20:05:13 <Bike> Napalm Sticks to Kids~
20:05:16 <Fiora> I don't know how bad I was but it was fun
20:05:22 <Bike> (that's the only cold war song i know)
20:05:23 <fizzie> Does Coldplay make cold war music?
20:05:24 <kmc> actually that was the party where the hazmat crew got called the next day
20:05:32 <Fiora> Bike: they could organize the party by decades. so like, in the first hour, every 10 minutes they have to vote someone out as a communist
20:05:34 <kmc> "Coldplay: The cherry on top of a shit sundae."
20:05:53 <Phantom_Hoover> i definitely wasn't good but i was competent at not being obviously bad
20:06:10 <Bike> Fiora: and then they all get high as hell and forget the theme?
20:06:16 <oerjan> <Taneb> About a couple of college students who accidentally make a FTL drive powered by American artificial cheddar <-- overarching premise: "this stuff has to be good for _something_"?
20:06:20 <Fiora> then in the next decade they have to vote who is the bourgeois and shame them in front of everyone
20:06:26 -!- kallisti has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:06:29 <Bike> There are a few typos in the game which can be distracting to the player, such as the announcement that a given country has been overrun by another country's "hoards" (its bank accounts?), rather than using the correct term, "hordes".
20:06:44 <Fiora> and decide on Four Olds from around the room to destroy
20:06:51 <Fiora> okay this is silly
20:07:17 <Taneb> oerjan, they put it in a particle collider for a joke, and then the next-door neighbour's cat ends up in Toronto or something
20:07:21 <Bike> later i show up in a ghillie suit and murder all the christians for being too leftist
20:08:28 <Bike> or just stand outside the party training assassins
20:10:11 <Taneb> oerjan, then the two college students, their girlfriend (they share one), and a KGB spy end up on a 747 in space or something
20:10:15 <Taneb> And save a few worlds
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20:22:40 <oerjan> i am not sure 747's are considered space-worthy?
20:23:11 <Fiora> maybe it's like Space Battleship Yamato?
20:24:10 <Taneb> oerjan, it was very silly
20:24:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think they just put a small particle collider and some cheese in it
20:26:14 <oerjan> wtf google is constantly crashing
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20:27:07 <oerjan> only the main page though
20:27:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think it was more a magic drive
20:28:02 <Phantom_Hoover> btw can we all just spend a minute admiring http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_salt-water_rocket
20:28:09 <Taneb> It was not at all hard sci-fi
20:29:29 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission_fragment_rocket this is my favorite nuclear rocket design
20:29:54 <Fiora> it can get exhaust velocity up to a significant fraction of c
20:30:01 <elliott> https://www.lp.org/make-a-bitcoin-contribution
20:30:06 <elliott> libertarian party now accepting bitcoin donations
20:30:16 <elliott> By checking this box I acknowledge that contributions from corporations and foreign nationals are prohibited (Permanent legal residents of the U.S., i.e., "green card" holders, are not considered foreign nationals). I also acknowledge that this contribution is made from my own personal funds and not funds from a corporate or business entity.
20:30:30 <elliott> something tells me this isn't legally sound
20:30:31 <Fiora> oh wow O_O that one has crazy good specific impulse too
20:30:39 <Taneb> elliott, you're not a US citizen.
20:30:44 <Taneb> Hate to break it 2 u
20:30:53 <elliott> i like how the donation amount starts at $5k
20:31:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, it's basically project orion with one long, continuous explosion
20:31:14 <pikhq_> elliott: That's actually a legal requirement on campaign donations.
20:31:38 <pikhq_> elliott: Basically, without having a weirdo legal status you can't accept from corporations, and you can't accept from non-citizens.
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20:32:03 <Fiora> kmc: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/11/as-big-investors-emerge-bitcoin-gets-ready-for-its-close-up/ oh my gosh it's the winklevoss twins
20:32:30 <zzo38> I rarely use any compression with DVI other than the built-in movement commands compression, although other can be used if necessary such as gz and so on
20:32:30 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:32:34 <lambdabot> kmc asked 2d 43m 57s ago: What kind of compression (if any) do you use on .dvi files?
20:32:34 <lambdabot> Bike said 1d 20h 22m 8s ago: friend of mine doesn't think TwoDucks can solve the halting problem (for UTMs) and would be interested in talking it over with you.
20:32:59 <elliott> pretty trivial to just donate money to them and put in a fake address
20:33:16 <Bike> "winklevoss"??
20:33:32 <Fiora> the guys who sued facebook for stealing their idea
20:34:05 <elliott> the identical twins from the fairy tale
20:34:08 <elliott> pretty sure they can't actually be real
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20:34:28 <Bike> «Olympic rowers. Nemeses of Mark Zuckerberg. Characters on “The Simpsons.” Now they can add a new label: bitcoin moguls.» this is pretty great
20:34:46 <Taneb> I'm at least 0 of those things
20:34:48 <Bike> «The Winklevii — as they are popularly known —»
20:35:10 <Bike> hey dutch tulips
20:35:15 <Bike> i should actually read that book sometime
20:35:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "They have parlayed that fortune into Winklevoss Capital. Their first two investments were in Hukkster, a start-up shopping Web site and SumZero, an online community for professional money managers."
20:35:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: does anyone invest in anything that isn't a website any more
20:35:53 <Bike> things that aren't websites? what
20:36:05 <Taneb> That sounds like my dad's mum's maiden name
20:36:11 <elliott> Bike: i know it's hard to believe they exist
20:36:27 <Taneb> I invested in an oil company
20:36:36 <Taneb> It hasn't yet gone bankrupt
20:37:57 <boily> time for a relevant quote:
20:37:59 <metasepia> I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in
20:37:59 <metasepia> my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
20:38:31 <Bike> ha, ha, cartesian dualism
20:40:18 <Fiora> "Oh, so that's why the value is crashing... people just wanted to get out once they saw the Winkelvii getting in." *pff*
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20:51:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> Oh, I can just popcnt %eax, %eax?
20:52:53 <oerjan> now i'm wondering if there's assembly that resembles brekekex koax koax
20:55:21 <shachaf> `learn Maybe a is Just a or Nothing
20:56:17 <elliott> Just Int isn't :: Maybe Int
20:56:36 <shachaf> elliott: Go fight with the "data" syntax people.
20:57:57 <boily> :t Just 5 :: Maybe Int
20:58:42 * oerjan laughs at today's darths & droids
21:01:18 <oerjan> :t return 5 `asTypeOf` Just undefined
21:01:39 <elliott> oerjan: do you know about ways to encode codata using inductive types
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21:02:25 * Phantom_Hoover dips into r/bitcoin, notes that they are arguing with someone pointing out that bitcoins are never going to hit $100,000
21:02:56 <oerjan> elliott: wrapping things dually in functions, i assume...
21:03:17 <oerjan> wait, you said "know". i guess not.
21:03:28 <elliott> well I am pretty sure there are multiple viable ways but Idon't know the details
21:03:37 <elliott> I assume someone has written a paper about it but I can't find one
21:03:43 <Fiora> oerjan: amazingly I don't think x86 actually has anything starting with K
21:04:12 <oerjan> Fiora: the k is not important here, i was inspired by %eax after all
21:05:25 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
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21:06:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1c51ck/i_think_this_subreddit_should_seriously_consider/c9d3ket
21:06:25 <oerjan> elliott: i would expect codata to be somehow representable as something a function that takes an inductive data type argument describing how to decompose it to a finite level
21:06:46 <oerjan> sort of dual to a fold
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21:08:27 <elliott> well... I am a bit unsure because when you have dependent types, it's no longer sufficient to describe data types as their fold
21:09:09 <oerjan> i do not usually think of dependent types, i was imagining something system F like here
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21:22:09 <ion> Dog attacks TV for baseball http://youtu.be/L7QFFZJWAX8
21:25:35 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ...
21:26:09 <Bike> this is quite a thread PH
21:26:21 <kmc> ion: ha, nice catch
21:26:29 <Bike> Estimate those probabilities, multiply them by each other. Is your answer zero? Nope, didn't think so.
21:27:10 <Bike> wow are there gold standard people here i'm seeing
21:27:12 <kmc> "Why would anyone record themselves playing triple play? Definitely planned... Therefore its NOT A NICE SAVE"
21:27:22 <kmc> woah, youtube commenter, you are really blowing the lid off this conspiracy
21:27:27 <kmc> do the zapruder film next
21:27:43 <Bike> "400 years ago Canada was a bunch of stupid trees. Now we re worth almost 1.8 trillion. Give that amount of time, and maybe." wow it's bullshit /and/ racist
21:28:12 <Bike> bitcoins are just like canada kmc
21:28:29 <Bike> "I think a better analogy is that Microsoft was started in a garage, and Facebook was started by random college kids in their dorm room. Oh and don't forget Apple who nearly died that one time.""Yeah, and none of those companies is anywhere close to being worth two trillion dollars." "neither of those companies is a currency."
21:29:03 <elliott> Bike: well canada is still a bunch of stupid trees.
21:29:21 <Bike> Just because a lot of people bought in early and get rich, that doesn't mean that they don't deserve to get RICHER. I feel like there is so much greed around Bitcoin now that it's going to fail just over the asshats that won't recognize the value.
21:30:03 <Bike> why would you even want a BTC to be worth $10000, that's not how you measure the strength of a currency
21:30:22 <kmc> you're winning if the numbers go up
21:30:24 <kmc> it's like mario
21:30:26 <elliott> well people don't care about the strength of BTC so much as making a lot of money off the BTC they have
21:30:33 <elliott> even if they pretend otherwise
21:30:49 <Phantom_Hoover> there was an article in the observer making that point
21:31:05 <elliott> well if the observer said it
21:31:06 <Phantom_Hoover> bitcoin is doomed to fail because it encourages speculators and hoarding, apparently
21:31:21 <elliott> sort of like other currencies you mean
21:31:22 <Bike> if it's doomed to fail it's because the people using it are dipshits
21:31:24 <kmc> yeah, deflation is built into the protocol
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21:31:46 <elliott> yes i do know how bitcoin works :P
21:31:53 <Fiora> it's kind of brilliant, though, isn't it? the creator of bitcoin was able to gather a vast army of supporters to push it just through greed
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> if i have 200 in a sock it's just going to become worthless over time
21:32:00 <Fiora> because all the early adopters will have a ton to gain
21:32:09 <elliott> something about bitcoin being a microcosm of capitalism, not a conspiracy
21:32:17 <kmc> if you have 200,000 JPY in a sock then it almost doesn't become worthless except that your country's economy slowly melts
21:32:37 <kmc> elliott: the invisible hand is flipping us all off
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21:43:01 <kmc> on top of an actual Magic: the
21:43:48 <kmc> also doesn't tokyo have mountains
21:43:51 <elliott> did Phantom_Hoover miss kmc's joke
21:44:20 <kmc> monqy: why is your username 'help'
21:44:30 <kmc> or... "~help"
21:45:14 <elliott> monqy: secret i actually use oidentd
21:45:18 <elliott> bc its in the debian repos
21:45:35 <elliott> monqy: remember when your username was swell; those were some good times
21:45:41 <elliott> (it made me think your real name was swell)
21:45:45 <elliott> (like you were thomas swell or something)
21:45:58 <monqy> was i in here back when it was 'chap'?
21:46:07 <elliott> i dont remember that though
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21:47:30 <monqy> it may have been 'ciao' too at one point but im less sure about that
21:48:11 <kmc> also http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2013/04/zerocoin-making-bitcoin-anonymous.html is neat
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21:49:59 * Phantom_Hoover realises that it's actually kind of mad that there's a $20 spread in prices from the 4 non-mtgox exchanges on bitcoinity
21:50:19 <Fiora> kmc: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=173227.0
21:52:12 <pikhq_> Yeah, the single biggest failure of BTC is that it's inherently deflationary...
21:52:19 <pikhq_> Meaning that long-term it's simply not viable.
21:53:41 <pikhq_> But hey, people also support the gold standard.
21:53:48 <kmc> so as t→∞ everyone is just hoarding coins and not spending them... but is there some way to incentivize against that
21:53:50 <pikhq_> Which has the same problem really.
21:53:52 <kmc> other than modifying the protocol
21:54:07 <kmc> pikhq_: and a lot of the same people supporm both...
21:54:21 <Bike> 'consider linux or os x'
21:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> what, exactly, was the problem with not making it deflationary
21:55:02 <pikhq_> If you really truly think Bitcoin is going to last long-term, it's in your best interest to just grab some and sit on it.
21:55:07 <pikhq_> And, like, retire on it.
21:55:23 <kmc> but if everyone does that and liquidity dries up
21:55:30 <kmc> then how do you actually spend your bitcoins on important goods
21:55:50 <pikhq_> Yay, liquidity crises.
21:55:56 <Fiora> I think maybe that's part of the reason why it's so volatile? or at least part of it, since, like, the number of bitcoins actually trading seems to be a tiny fraction of the total
21:56:14 <kmc> i think the deflationary thing is sufficiently far off that it's not influencing behaivor now
21:56:17 <kmc> but i could be wrong
21:56:31 <Fiora> not the deflationary bit but rather just "people are sitting on it"
21:56:36 <pikhq_> kmc: It's actually been deflationary since day one.
21:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> why did it have to be deflationary! i assume there was some reason for it
21:56:41 <kmc> pikhq_: yeah, i know
21:56:48 <pikhq_> As more bitcoins are mined, mining gets harder.
21:56:59 <kmc> i just think people aren't thinking long term yet
21:57:00 <pikhq_> I suspect people aren't *acting* on this, but nevertheless.
21:57:06 <Fiora> maybe it's easier to convince people of the value of something if you can guarantee it will be in limited supply (?)
21:57:07 <kmc> that the market is mostly driven by short term bubbly speculation
21:57:17 <kmc> Fiora: yeah
21:57:27 <kmc> deflation gives you a currency which is worth a lot of dollars which looks good in a way
21:57:31 <Fiora> it definitely did a good job at recruiting the libertarians -_-
21:57:33 <kmc> but it hurts your economy
21:58:15 <kmc> people keep telling me that the Right Thing is nominal GDP growth targets
21:58:25 <Fiora> I remember hearing that 'satoshi' had mined, like, 500k bitcoins or something
21:58:28 <kmc> i don't really know
21:58:30 <Fiora> I wonder where those are now...
21:59:27 <kmc> it's so weird that bitcoin was invented by some anonymous japanese person
21:59:32 <kmc> it makes the whole thing like 200% more cyberpunk
21:59:40 <Fiora> I'm not even sure people are certain it was one person
21:59:55 <kmc> also how did i only now notice that 'bitcoin' is one letter off from 'bitchin'
22:00:39 <Fiora> (bitcoin is actually a stand alone complex!)
22:00:44 <elliott> finally a way to trade virtual chins anonymously
22:00:56 <elliott> i am going to saw off my own chin and trade it in asap
22:01:47 <elliott> kmc: i don't think there's any reason to believe it was actually invented by a japanese person
22:02:30 <Bike> some kind of..... weeaboo cypherpunk
22:02:34 <elliott> like it might just be oen of the later developers using another name for the initial development
22:02:48 <Bike> if you want a japanese thing there's Perfect Dark
22:03:02 <Bike> version 1.02 was called "standalone complex"
22:03:07 <elliott> but i'm sure the fact that the inventor is unknown appeals to the kind of ancap anonymity type impulse
22:03:08 <Bike> maximum cyberpunk go
22:03:10 <Fiora> I think I remember reading that the first few 100k bitcoins still haven't been sent anywhere...
22:03:20 <Bike> the nazi gold of reddit
22:03:22 <elliott> so that paper Bike or whoever linked
22:03:26 <Fiora> so like, whoever invented it is a multi-millionaire
22:03:27 <elliott> does anyone know what that november 2010 transaction actually was
22:03:36 <Bike> i'm telling you man it's the pizas
22:03:47 <elliott> bitcoin, founded upon pizza
22:04:01 <Fiora> (though, it'd be wonderfully schadenfreudetastic if it turned out satoshi lost hir wallet)
22:06:25 <kmc> Bike: hahaha
22:06:32 <kmc> the nazi gold of reddit
22:11:49 <kmc> if bitcoin does survive, you know that people in 20 years will be looking through every discarded laptop for hidden treasure
22:14:10 <kmc> i should get a bunch of blank CDs and write "BITCOINS" on them and hide them in various locations
22:14:25 <Fiora> maybe put like, 0.000001 of a bitcoin on each one?
22:14:43 <kmc> or 0.000000
22:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you can fit a paedophile on a disc pikhq
22:15:17 <kmc> pikhq_: nah it should have enough apparent structure that people will go mad trying to decrypt it
22:15:23 <kmc> paedocoins
22:15:42 <Fiora> oh gosh, this reminds me of um... Molyneux's cube thing
22:15:52 <Fiora> I'm imagining that, except like, with a promise of a bitcoin wallet in the center
22:16:03 <Fiora> and a swarm of redditors trying to get to the center of the cube
22:16:09 <elliott> i honestly thought curiosity was a molydeux thing first
22:16:17 <elliott> because i first heard of it from molydeux tweets referencing it
22:16:21 <Bike> wasn't it what inspired molydeux
22:16:23 <Fiora> me too. he's practically self-parody XD
22:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> is it bad when i heard of it i thought it sounded kind of cool
22:16:34 <elliott> molyneux saw molydeux and was inspired to go and quit his job
22:16:39 <kmc> http://i0.wp.com/buttcoin.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/mtgoxmagiccard.jpg?resize=223%2C310
22:16:52 <elliott> art imitates life imitates art
22:17:06 <monqy> have they figured out curiosity yet
22:17:11 <Bike> so is it true that mt gox is a repurposed mtg site
22:17:48 <kmc> magic the gathering online xchange
22:18:12 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt.Gox
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22:19:44 <Bike> oh hey they stopped trading yesterday
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22:23:06 <FreeFull> Are there any real-world codebases that use STM?
22:26:12 -!- ion has joined.
22:26:49 <oerjan> nope, they're all in fake worlds
22:27:44 <FreeFull> I mean, code that actually serves a purpose that's not demonstrating STMs
22:28:29 <elliott> apparently the founder of mtgox also made edonkey
22:28:53 <elliott> and is also the guy who made Ripple
22:29:55 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
22:30:00 <HackEgo> 1020) <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention
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22:31:57 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripple_monetary_system
22:32:00 <elliott> it was cool before bitcoin!
22:32:10 <elliott> and is also more interesting
22:32:54 <Bike> oh wow i've actually heard of htis
22:33:11 <Bike> "This structure means that it is simple to route payments to and from any participants, but is inherently full of single points of failure, which may also be characterized as single points of control."
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22:50:12 <elliott> kmc: what pdf reader do you use
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22:58:54 <kmc> are u gonna write sploit
22:59:11 <kmc> evince mainly, sometimes xpdf, sometimes okular
22:59:14 <kmc> sometimes google preview thingy
23:03:15 <ion> I start with pdf.js because my browser renders PDF files using it internally, then find that it’s frustratingly slow and/or renders the file horribly <http://imm.io/12t9N> and click the button to open it in evince.
23:04:06 <ion> I like xpdf’s magnifier tool.
23:04:15 <ion> elliott: Firefox
23:05:40 <kmc> xpdf works even when evince is broken due to gnome bullshit
23:05:48 <kmc> also consumes less ram or something
23:06:02 <ion> I don’t remember evince being broken ever. But sure, xpdf uses less resources.
23:06:10 <Jafet> Mozilla doesn't want Adobe to cash in on the lucrative user frustration market
23:06:51 <ion> Well, SWF already uses JS for scripting. :-P
23:07:18 <pikhq_> I'm fond of mupdf personally.
23:08:18 <Fiora> the firefox reader has been kind of frustrating for me, it works some of the time but on some files the table of contents window just doesn't work, like, I can't click on an entry to jump to it
23:08:22 <Fiora> which is really painful for 1500-page pdfs
23:08:39 <pikhq_> Yeah, pdf.js seems rather silly.
23:08:49 <elliott> i avoid reading 1500 page pdfs
23:08:55 <pikhq_> PDF readers have issues being slow *without* running on a rather strange VM.
23:09:00 <elliott> maintains my inner balance
23:09:13 <Fiora> I don't have much choice if I need to read intel manuals :<
23:09:26 <elliott> ah, you have found another way in which i maintain my inner balance.
23:09:36 <pikhq_> mupdf is pretty nice though. UI's kinda meh, but it's freaking awesome at rendering efficiently.
23:09:46 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:10:17 <elliott> i kind of want some kind of pdf manager
23:10:25 <elliott> so i don't have to keep remembering what 58324.pdf is or whatever
23:10:32 <elliott> i could give them proper names
23:10:40 <Bike> i give them proper names every few weeks
23:10:56 <ion> elliott: I use Calibre.
23:10:56 <Bike> when I notice Downloads/48191_1891final.pdf\ (3) and decide enough is enough
23:10:56 <kmc> mendeley was recently acquired by satan or something
23:11:04 <elliott> Bike: is this some kind of web based thing
23:11:15 <Bike> elliott: no Downloads is my folder for downloads.
23:11:20 <Bike> kmc: elsevier?
23:11:34 <Bike> Oh. Uh, maybe?
23:11:40 <elliott> this looks sort of like something i have no hope of using on linux
23:11:43 <ion> I also use Calibre to convert and send files to my Kindle. But i used it just to maintain a library of various ebooks, papers etc. before i had a Kindle.
23:11:56 <Bike> elliott: I'm pretty sure enough academics use it for them to support it...
23:12:00 <elliott> oh it has a linux version hmm
23:12:25 <Bike> Well, now that it's Elsevier i'll need a goat to sacrifice to soil myself enough to use it, though
23:12:27 <elliott> i would prefer something open source because i am a dweeb, but it certainly looks featureful
23:12:36 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_reference_management_software ah wikipedia
23:12:38 <ion> It’s open-source.
23:12:59 <elliott> calibre... might work for my needs
23:13:02 <elliott> but there was that one security bug report
23:13:08 <elliott> that makes it impossible for me to take the developer seriously
23:13:34 <ion> What bug report was that?
23:13:48 <elliott> https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027
23:14:01 <elliott> it's no longer relevant and didn't matter to anyone who used major distro packages for it, but
23:14:08 <elliott> the dev's attitude is really awful and eyeroll-y
23:14:13 <elliott> so i am biased against the program now
23:14:40 <Bike> "I dont see how 1-3 are security vulnerabilities." wow i forgot how terrible this was
23:14:41 <ion> Hah, awesome
23:15:11 <elliott> Fix committed for the latest exploit. Feel free to re-open if you find another
23:15:14 <elliott> exploit PoC 2.1 Edit (2.9 KiB, text/x-sh)
23:15:23 <Bike> "4 is a vulnerability only if
23:15:26 <Bike> mount itself is vulnerable to command line injection." hahaha
23:15:30 <elliott> i'm sure if you keep patching it over it'll be fine!
23:15:36 <Bike> god i totally forgot about this it's amazing
23:17:10 <elliott> how is that elsevier boycott going
23:18:19 <Bike> well that one legislative thing got defeated a billion years ago so fine as far as i'm concerned
23:19:13 <Fiora> wooow. that bug report thread.
23:19:27 <Bike> "Until this comment, I was on the side of fixing with the exploits. Now, as far as I am concerned you should go play frisbee on a freeway."
23:19:31 <Fiora> gosh, that guy is almost reminiscent of drepper.
23:19:39 <Bike> things get heated in the high-stakes world of launchpad
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23:20:31 <elliott> hell is trying to find the superscript for a footnote you missed
23:20:46 <Bike> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9985757/Iranian-scientist-claims-to-have-invented-time-machine.html anyway
23:20:54 <elliott> WHAT ARE YOU COMMENTING ON REVEAL YOUR SECRETS TO ME
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23:23:29 <Bike> Razeghi said his latest project has been criticised by friends and relatives for "trying to play God" with ordinary lives and history.
23:24:33 * ion laughed at “Ah, realpath(). status fixreleased”
23:26:23 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:27:43 <Sgeo> Oh, so it is safe for me to use Calibre on Linux?
23:27:51 <Sgeo> I may have been avoiding it somewhat
23:28:17 <Bike> probably nobody's going to exploit it, the dev is just kind of a fool i guess
23:28:30 <elliott> the dev gave in eventually
23:28:39 <elliott> of course that's only the one bug we know about
23:28:57 <Bike> Well it's the only binary that's suid, isn't it?
23:29:12 <Bike> Apparently Fedora and probably other distros just remove that binary anyway.
23:30:19 <elliott> you can have bad exploits without root
23:30:27 <elliott> like your browser doesn't run as root either
23:33:24 <kmc> elliott: sure an attacker can get my gmail password and all of my other passwords and basically take over my life and all my money, but that's no use if they can't send raw IP packets or set the system clock
23:37:43 <ion> Oh man, another Calibre developer, Charles Haley (cbhaley), decided to join the discussion with a constructive message.
23:42:48 <elliott> kmc: i should chown more things root
23:43:30 <kmc> alias yolo=sudo
23:45:07 <elliott> is there a decent email client yet
23:45:13 <elliott> like can i stop using gmail
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23:57:00 <ion> “Every time I was convinced of the existence of an actual exploit, I have attempted to fix it. Maybe my fixes were naive, but dont forget that it's a lot easier to find holes in something, than to build somethig without holes in the first place.”
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00:08:19 <ion> “I also admire him for not playing the racism card.” WAT
00:09:08 <Bike> orientals. wow.
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00:26:49 <FreeFull> I think he's trying to be Linus Torvalds, except Linux actually knows what he's talking about
00:30:23 <kmc> itt: linus torvalds is a shit role model
00:33:11 <FreeFull> Trying to imitate his attitude without having the credentials is bound to end up bad
00:33:50 <oerjan> @tell ais523 You seem to have missed User:EzraFrier
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00:34:08 <kmc> you shouldn't emulate his attitude regardless
00:35:34 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
00:38:30 <FreeFull> https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027/comments/90
00:40:22 <Bike> what the hell is the GNAA
00:40:41 <kmc> FreeFull: being right about technical matters is really no excuse for being an asshole
00:40:58 <oerjan> Bike: gnus against acronyms
00:41:18 <kmc> and Torvalds takes it a step further, he takes pride in offending people and thinks that if you're offended that's good because you deserve to be offended
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01:52:30 * Sgeo throws a FactoryBean at the channel
01:53:05 <Bike> AGH FUCK MY EYE
01:53:17 <Gregor> Bike: Wow, you're into some extreme stuff.
01:53:50 <Bike> oh haha that was just an expression, i meant to fuck my dessicated elbow, on the ground there
01:59:50 <Sgeo> FactoryBean. A bean that acts as a factory.
02:00:34 <Bike> get with the program, monqy.
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02:00:52 <monqy> do you know what he's talking about, bike?
02:00:53 <Sgeo> It's a Factory that has one specific way of retrieving a created object from it, and can have other properties, so can be configured in XML and you don't point at the factory directly when you want an instance from it
02:01:09 <Bike> no but i don't really care so i'm just rolling with it
02:01:21 <monqy> why would you throw that at the channel
02:03:08 <shachaf> did you get my numerous @tells and @asks
02:03:21 <monqy> what was that last one about
02:03:49 <shachaf> i usually forget as soon as i send them (or even before!!!!??)
02:03:53 <monqy> something about friendship monqys, lots of !!!s
02:04:02 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
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02:04:19 <monqy> that doesn't explain anything…
02:04:29 <shachaf> i know it only raises more questions
02:04:35 <shachaf> like: what is the friendship monqy
02:05:28 <oerjan> i am pretty sure Journey to the West is involved somehow.
02:09:07 <doesthiswork> I was impressed that dragons 3.5 times as many balls as I do
02:15:17 <Sgeo> My job might literally save someone's life.
02:19:32 <monqy> there's more than one way to save life's, doesthiswork
02:19:55 <monqy> for example you could install the no-skid tape
02:20:04 <monqy> a very important step the in life saving procedure
02:20:09 <Sgeo> Because of this job, I'm eating more, which is pushing me over 110 lbs, which means I can donate blood, which I plan to.
02:20:20 <shachaf> monqy: monqy how do you save life's monqy
02:20:29 <monqy> shachaf: eating a lot
02:20:47 <shachaf> if i eat a lot will i save life ' s
02:21:10 <monqy> you could also save lives by eating less
02:21:17 <monqy> many way s to save lives
02:21:35 <shachaf> what about by eating exactly as much as im eating
02:21:54 <monqy> i'd have to think about that!
02:23:08 <monqy> i've come to the conclusion that you'll probably save ~the same # of lives regardless of how much you eat
02:23:39 <shachaf> is it because i have no free will
02:23:51 <monqy> you're better off with the no-skid tape
02:24:00 <doesthiswork> think of the gain in life if you were a spermdonar
02:24:24 <doesthiswork> much more efficient use of fluid than blood donation
02:25:02 <monqy> what if you donate both fluids
02:25:16 <shachaf> monqy: well they're interchangeable arent they..
02:25:41 <monqy> i don't think so, shachaf
02:34:34 <shachaf> monqy: can i have more monqy wisdom
02:35:40 <shachaf> thanks that was a good one
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02:45:33 <Sgeo> monqy: can i have less monqy wisdom
02:45:49 <monqy> are you sure that's a good idea
02:46:14 <Sgeo> do i need more monqy wisdom to decide if less monqy wisdom is a good idea
02:46:22 <shachaf> its a bad idea..................................................................................
02:46:54 <shachaf> (i just called you wonqy btw)
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02:47:35 <Sgeo> gah not capitalizing I hurts
02:48:05 <shachaf> not capitalizing is not a crime
02:48:16 <monqy> were you trying out 'monqyspeak'
02:48:38 <shachaf> (idont know but it sounds good)
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02:49:06 <monqy> well i've heard someone say it before..i'll have to check my logs
02:49:32 <shachaf> hey monqy guess where i am
02:49:49 <Sgeo> you are in the universe hth
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02:50:32 <shachaf> universe more like coolniverse
02:51:09 <oerjan> shachaf: is capitalizing a capital crime?
02:52:18 <shachaf> oerjan oerjan oerjan bama'agal nachoerjan
02:52:36 <shachaf> oerjan: ive been pronouncing your nick "as if it was dutch sorry about that"
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03:21:29 <quintopia> shachaf: fix your subjunctive mood plox
03:23:29 <quintopia> then use the correct subjunctive and you can sound better like me and the rest of the high-prestige dialecters
03:23:58 <shachaf> @karma+ quintopia.prestige
03:23:59 <lambdabot> quintopia.prestige's karma raised to 1.
03:36:09 <zzo38> I added something in RogueVM that was missing: Now there is a file for enumeration to make up names of the possible values that a configuration parameter can have. There is also the specification for a "death message" in the high-score list.
03:37:01 <zzo38> Is this better now?
03:38:22 <zzo38> Is it possible for a good serious philosophical text to be written consisting entirely of questions?
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03:51:27 <elliott> kmc: "I finally said it, my startup failed. Fuck. I felt like I was coming out of the closet when I first stated it aloud to my co-founder."
03:51:31 <elliott> kmc: thought u would appreciate
03:53:32 <Bike> like beyond the general what-ness, if the startup failed how would the cofounder not know
03:54:02 <Fiora> admitting something very risky didn't work -- totally the same as coming out about ones' sexuality
03:54:38 <Bike> but i mean in this terrible, horrible analogy, isn't the cofounder like some homogendered person you've been going out with
03:55:11 <Bike> aren't they all in the closet. the closet must encapsulate the founders right
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04:19:34 <monqy> `addquote <itidus21> :D :D oh man.. i wonder if they ever made chess variants based off of animes
04:19:38 <HackEgo> 1021) <itidus21> :D :D oh man.. i wonder if they ever made chess variants based off of animes
04:19:45 <monqy> for some reason this quote has vanished from the qdb
04:20:20 <kmc> i miss itidus21
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05:13:11 <zzo38> Make up some such chess variant if you want. Actually I made "Kira Chess" which is based on "Death Note".
05:13:20 <zzo38> There may be others too; I don't know.
05:15:07 <oerjan> zzo38: i thought you would have
05:16:12 <Bike> zzo38: so do you not care about the twoducks thing?
05:16:53 <zzo38> Bike: Actually I don't know the answer. Post on the talk page.
05:17:55 <zzo38> I would like to see the discussion, so put it in the talk page.
05:17:59 <oerjan> the talk page already contains a TC-ness discussion
05:18:07 <Bike> I'll see what I can d- oh, huh.
05:18:08 <zzo38> You can discuss in here too if you have something to say, of course.
05:18:30 <Bike> Well it seems TC to me, he disagreed, based on Aaronson's work on computation in CTCs.
05:19:11 <zzo38> It may be interesting. Can you please be more specific?
05:20:06 <elliott> what is the twoducks thing
05:21:15 <Bike> Friend and I got into an argument about whether it was computable.
05:21:40 <Bike> I didn't really understand what he meant, which is why I thought you'd be better off talking to hi, if you cared.
05:21:46 <Bike> I'll show him the talk page and see what happens.
05:21:48 <elliott> i'm pretty sure it's not computbale
05:28:32 <zzo38> Can all statements of number theory be made into programs which halt if and only if the statement is true? What is the required computation class to do this, if it is possible at all?
05:36:06 <oerjan> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%27s_theorem looks relevant
05:36:38 <oerjan> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski-Kuratowski_algorithm
05:40:41 <oerjan> but to summarize, whenever you switch between universal and existential quantifiers, you need to add another level of halting oracle
05:41:10 <zzo38> That is what I thought, actually.
05:42:14 <zzo38> I thought it might be something like that, so know I can know better that it is something like that.
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09:25:09 <zzo38> Now I managed to make a Z-machine assembler working.
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10:00:56 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
10:03:39 <elliott> Taneb: wow i was just thinking "nice sarcasm, taneb's growing up"
10:03:54 <Taneb> elliott, sarcasm makes me uncomfortable
10:04:22 <Taneb> I have two many sarcastic frienemies
10:05:33 <Taneb> Imagine many sarcastic frienemies
10:05:39 <Taneb> I have precisely twice that amount
10:07:21 <fizzie> I guess you mean "two[U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES]many".
10:09:43 <Taneb> Yeah, my invisible times key is broken
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10:11:16 <Taneb> I don't think I like Ghoul_
10:13:03 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, #haskell
10:14:35 <elliott> well this is a waste of time
10:14:50 <elliott> good thing mauke is more persistent than I am
10:15:14 <fizzie> I've seen that name somewhere.
10:15:54 <fizzie> (Is it legal to be a Perl and a Haskell guy at the same time?)
10:16:20 <elliott> i think he might be both a #haskell op and a #perl op too
10:17:00 <Taneb> (INVISIBLE TIMES actually exists? huh.)
10:19:38 <fizzie> Along with INVISIBLE SEPARATOR and INVISIBLE PLUS, and the still-invisible-but-not-explicitly-so FUNCTION APPLICATION.
10:21:20 <fizzie> Perhaps they dared not to name it INVISIBLE FUNCTION APPLICATION, fearing that people would interpret it as (INVISIBLE FUNCTION) APPLICATION instead of INVISIBLE (FUNCTION APPLICATION).
10:22:19 <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
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10:27:15 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
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11:05:14 <impomatic> I've had 4 parcels go missing in a month. From 4 different consignees. 1 in 1430 chance of each going missing. There's more chance of winning the lottery twice in a week.
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12:30:50 <Taneb> Wow, I didn't think I was capable of that
12:32:17 <Taneb> Indeed, the most likely scenario is that we were having completely separate conversations
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12:32:53 <ThatOtherPerson> The only way that Taneb could have been responding to you would be if Taneb was a bot
12:34:09 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: by the way, if you are a bot, I believe that you have passed the Turing test
12:34:30 <Taneb> You hear that, fungot? I'm better than you!
12:34:31 <fungot> Taneb: other than the ones than ran on vacuum tubes, from the outside)
12:35:10 <Taneb> But I am not a bot.
12:35:21 <Taneb> I was referring to the fact that I think I have a girlfriend now
12:36:21 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
12:36:29 <Taneb> fungot, what a lad.
12:36:29 <fungot> Taneb: the previous ones. like fnord is an interesting problem
12:37:09 <Taneb> `addquote <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
12:37:09 <fungot> Taneb: the stuff ' between' built-in module systems, is a _string_ of things, not including srfi 1.
12:37:13 <HackEgo> 1022) <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
12:37:55 <Taneb> `quote no not markov
12:37:56 <HackEgo> 574) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
12:38:05 <elliott> Taneb: wow one too many spaces!!!
12:38:07 <Taneb> fungot's lucidness comes and goes
12:38:07 <fungot> Taneb: pastebin that is not of interest to the mud, so people who like c, perl, and php apps right now
12:38:14 <Taneb> elliott, I always get it wrong :(
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13:45:55 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
13:47:12 <Taneb> boily, those quotes aren't empty
13:47:32 <boily> try again, mu-eval had to be loaded into RAM.
13:47:56 <metasepia> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8290'
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13:48:45 <Taneb> ~eval "hello there" == "hello there"
13:48:46 <metasepia> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8290'
13:49:51 <boily> ~eval showHex 8290 ""
13:49:51 <metasepia> Error (1): Not in scope: `showHex'
13:50:36 <boily> ~eval showHex 8290 ""
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13:52:25 <boily> ~eval length "hello\8290there"
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14:02:28 <Taneb> Is it bad that I know Owen Wilson best for acting in a terrible movie that is also fictional?
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14:05:46 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff: The Movie
14:06:09 <Taneb> Starring Owen Wilson as Hella Jeff and Ben Stiller as Sweet Bro
14:08:24 <Taneb> ...he also played Lightning McQueen in Cars
14:10:47 <ThatOtherPerson> It would be a movie about making the movie... erm, the movie which is itself
14:10:57 <Taneb> Sounds a bit like Marble Hornets
14:11:18 <Taneb> It sounds like what Marble Hornets would have been if it wasn't a horror story
14:11:34 <ThatOtherPerson> It would be the closest thing to a quine that a movie can be!
14:12:20 <Taneb> You could make a movie where the video is a quine in Piet and the soundtrack is a quine in I think Fugue
14:12:54 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I have bad news
14:13:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Hm, someone should extend Piet so that it can run movie files
14:13:30 <Taneb> It can run animated gifs, ish
14:14:09 <Taneb> You'd need to define the size of the three-dimensional voxels
14:14:20 <Taneb> Seeing as time is a different "thing" to pixel size
14:14:48 <ThatOtherPerson> I guess a frame would be equivalent to the size of a pixel
14:15:07 <Taneb> If it's something like a .GIF, frames could have different lengths
14:15:17 <ThatOtherPerson> huh, I guess someone could try making Befunge three dimensional as well
14:15:36 <ThatOtherPerson> except for the part where it is extremely difficult to type in 3d
14:15:51 <elliott> funge-98 already specifies 3-dimensional funge
14:15:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, "Noodle Soup"
14:16:54 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noodle_Soup
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14:18:05 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: ah, that's what I thought all programming languages looked like when I was six
14:18:49 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I remember typing in a terminal in a computer in my garage when I was three
14:19:06 <Taneb> So I thought all computer programs had to be white text on a black background
14:19:58 <ThatOtherPerson> The first time I used the Command Prompt in Windows was when I was ten
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14:20:59 <ThatOtherPerson> And if I ever use a command line at school people look over my shoulder and ask me, in wonder, what I am hacking
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14:49:38 <hagb4rd> when i was young, program code was like white text on blue screen (which was a significant improvement to that green on black monochrome era).. but we peeked and poked it just the way we wanted to
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14:50:35 <hagb4rd> but green on black is coming back again
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14:51:01 <boily> hagb4rd: green on black is retro and hip.
14:51:32 <boily> the only time I suffered through white on blue was with word perfect on 5¼ floppies.
14:52:08 <hagb4rd> yes, i like that writer addon for chrome..do you know it?
14:52:38 <kmc> http://hackertyper.net/
14:52:45 <hagb4rd> it even has that typewriter sounds <3
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14:54:42 <kmc> is that a leet LOL
14:55:05 <hagb4rd> http://writer.bighugelabs.com/?chrome=1
14:55:35 <hagb4rd> the colors are cool.. but the font sucks
14:56:06 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
14:56:36 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
14:56:57 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
14:57:38 <hagb4rd> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
14:58:13 <boily> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
14:58:30 <kmc> > iterate show ""
14:58:32 <lambdabot> ["","\"\"","\"\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\...
14:58:57 <kmc> > map (map length . group) $ iterate show ""
14:58:59 <lambdabot> [[],[2],[1,1,1,1,2],[1,1,1,3,1,3,1,1,2],[1,1,1,3,1,7,1,7,1,3,1,1,2],[1,1,1,...
14:59:01 <boily> ~eval iterate show ""
14:59:02 <metasepia> ["","\"\"","\"\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
14:59:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `GHC.Base.String' with `GHC.Types.Char'
14:59:22 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> a0'
14:59:31 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = [a0]
15:00:34 <metasepia> Your divination: "Field" to "Field"
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15:12:46 <kmc> > map group $ iterate show ""
15:12:47 <lambdabot> [[],["\"\""],["\"","\\","\"","\\","\"\""],["\"","\\","\"","\\\\\\","\"","\\...
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15:13:55 <kmc> > map (map text . group) $ iterate show ""
15:13:56 <lambdabot> [[],[""],[",\,",\,""],[",\,",\\\,",\\\,",\,""],[",\,",\\\,",\\\\\\\,",\\\\\...
15:25:21 <Taneb> `quote ThatOtherPerson
15:25:23 <HackEgo> 1022) <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
15:25:44 <kmc> fungot: ^5
15:25:45 <fungot> kmc: it's only the win32 directory. ( about perl arrays) i think i associate it with pretentiousness and lack of active development. while a certain level of code maturity before throwing a language into the mix
15:28:39 <boily> pretty sane philosophy.
15:29:36 <kmc> fungot: do your girlfriends know each other? are they cool with it? do they also have sexytimes together?
15:29:36 <fungot> kmc: it was very effective, but its not working for me either. i would always use when unless over a single branch cond... the name is passed as argument 0
15:29:49 <kmc> fungot: sorry to hear it's not working for you :/
15:29:50 <fungot> kmc: it also doesn't fully explain fnord.... tell her i'm your cousin!
15:29:55 <kmc> fungot: will do
15:29:55 <fungot> kmc: i was half-joking.
15:30:13 <Taneb> kmc, fungot's lucidness is worrying
15:30:13 <fungot> Taneb: being flexible data structures, because you can't free in python, you'll like it
15:30:17 <boily> kmc and fungot are related?
15:30:18 <fungot> boily: so about half real dumb way ( and doing 250 iterations) :) y z i think it deserves a mention, of course
15:34:40 <kmc> we're related within 250 iterations I guess
15:34:55 <kmc> i think i'm related to everyone alive today within 250 iterations?
15:36:27 <kmc> hm not quite
15:37:22 <boily> I think everyone is at least 99% isomorphic to anybody else.
15:38:21 <kmc> looks like the most recent common ancestor of all living humans was like 2,000 - 4,000 years ago
15:38:50 <kmc> which is probably just a bit more than 250 generations
15:39:12 <boily> with 30 year generations, it's around approximatively about 300 generations.
15:39:13 <HackEgo> 32) <oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
15:39:28 <kmc> historically, generations are probably a lot shorter
15:39:31 <Taneb> I can imagine kmc and Phantom_Hoover being relatively closely related
15:39:45 <elliott> is that because they're both grumpy
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15:40:04 <boily> I'm currently reading “Time Enough for Love”. the prospect of long-lived humans makes for very strange genealogical mutant loopy trees.
15:40:36 <Taneb> elliott, it's because I seem to remember kmc having a scottish-y/irish-y surname, and Phantom_Hoover is scottish-y/irish-y
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15:41:09 <kmc> yeah i'm a McAllister
15:41:24 <kmc> I think I have recent-ish British ancestors
15:41:33 <kmc> haven't much looked into it though
15:42:13 <Taneb> My mum's side mostly comes from the anglo-scottish borders and also County Durham
15:42:20 <kmc> my first name is irish / gaelic / celtic / whatever, but my parents mostly just picked it because it sounds cool
15:42:29 <kmc> they both had super common names growing up
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15:42:59 <Taneb> My first name's Hebrew, as is my brother's, as is my mum's, but as far as I know I have no connections to Israel
15:44:25 <kmc> how did you end up with these names?
15:44:54 <Taneb> My mum's name is an old family name, she was named after her aunt
15:45:05 <Taneb> My name was chosen because my parents didn't know any Nathans
15:45:18 <Taneb> Then they started seeing Nathans all over the place
15:45:32 <Taneb> And my brother's name they thought suited him perfectly
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15:48:54 <kmc> hmm, TIL that chloroplasts have their own DNA and are thought to be descended from bacteria that colonized other cells, similar to mitochondria
15:49:06 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, it's David, right?
15:49:33 <Taneb> A lot of names in Europe come from Hebrew
15:49:35 <kmc> ah, I don't think of that as a "Hebrew name", even though it obviously is
15:49:38 <ThatOtherPerson> kmc: yeah, I remember mitochondria and chloroplasts having many things in common
15:49:40 <kmc> just because it's common
15:49:49 <kmc> and something that lots of christians pick as well as jews
15:50:00 <Taneb> Sean I think is Hebrew
15:50:16 <kmc> imo it's not a hebrew name unless you spell it using hebrew letters, right shachaf
15:50:22 <ThatOtherPerson> Which probably has something to do with Christianity having come from the same roots as Judaism
15:50:59 <Taneb> My middle name's not Hebrew at all
15:53:58 <Taneb> and my surname's Norse via Dutch
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16:20:33 <kmc> huh that's actually supposed to be written as 5 discrete letters?
16:20:42 <kmc> i thought my terminal was fucking it up, but seems that way
16:21:56 <elliott> two of them are ?s in diamonds for me
16:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> my first name is irish / gaelic / celtic / whatever, but my parents mostly just picked it because it sounds cool
16:22:24 <Phantom_Hoover> my parents actually went and asked some relative who knew irish what the stupidest possible spelling was
16:22:50 <elliott> what's your first name again
16:22:57 <elliott> it's the one that isn't ahdahdnhmdahdnamnaín
16:23:42 <Taneb> It's something common with some white noise tacked on the end
16:23:45 <Taneb> Adamfwheuigha eyghvbearyugeryuafbgvs
16:24:44 <kmc> llanfairpwllgwyngyll
16:25:05 <kmc> short for llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
16:25:23 <Phantom_Hoover> its pronounced https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y_rm2i1YtE&t=1m14s
16:26:09 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, ...
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16:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> so apparently there is now a character named after me in one of them video computer games
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16:40:20 <Taneb> "I am the walrus" would work relatively well as a screamo song
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16:41:37 <Taneb> Sadly I do not have a screamo band.
16:41:45 <Taneb> And I am no Oli Sykes
16:42:04 <Taneb> (who's actually metalcore...)
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16:42:50 <Fiora> kmc: huh, they think these too apparently are in that category of "organelles that were originally bacteria"
16:42:53 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome
16:42:56 <Fiora> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycosome
16:46:07 <Fiora> evolution during the precambrian era must have been all kinds of nutty. like, with all the bacteria just kind of doing anything and everything
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16:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> evolution was so much better in the precambrian when organisms were willing to take risks and be inventive
16:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> now we just get the same old eukaryote crap churned out year after year
16:48:18 <Taneb> It also seems that on land, there are an awful, awful lot of insects
16:48:41 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: it's all sex's fault
16:48:49 <Fiora> sexual reproduction made everything so ~boring~
16:49:11 <Koen_> we should find every eukaryote on the planet and substitute a rock for their core
16:49:13 <Fiora> to bring back the good times, we need to get rid of sex.
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16:49:24 <Koen_> isn't everything sex's fault
16:49:35 <Taneb> (is Koen_ suggesting we brickbrain the planet)
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16:50:07 <Taneb> Koen_, learn Haskell
16:50:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I shall defer to your expertise
16:50:40 <Bike> Fiora: not big on red queen, are you
16:53:18 <Fiora> I was being silly -_-
16:53:22 <Fiora> but you have a point xD
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16:54:04 <Taneb> I was reading today that sexual reproduction helped defeat parasites
16:57:41 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
16:59:51 <Koen_> I heard differently but ok
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17:02:44 -!- carado has joined.
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17:03:24 <doesthiswork> even prokaryotes have a mechanism analogous to sex, because it allows you to get rid of really sucky genes and get better ones
17:03:53 <Taneb> Alas, I am genetically predisposed against asexual production
17:04:32 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:05:13 <doesthiswork> y chromosomes are basically asexual because they never recombine
17:05:24 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_conjugation ah
17:05:32 <Fiora> so that's how that works!
17:05:47 <pikhq_> doesthiswork: Almost never.
17:05:47 <doesthiswork> which is why there are all kinds of fun x-linking things like color blindness and male pattern baldness
17:05:58 <pikhq_> doesthiswork: In some cases they end up recombining with the X chromosome.
17:06:11 <Fiora> doesn't that generate a whole mess of disorders?
17:06:15 <doesthiswork> pikhq_: You're right, there are almost no absolute in biology
17:06:18 <pikhq_> This ends up doing fun things like putting sex-determining region Y on the X. Giving you an XX male.
17:06:32 <Fiora> right, like that one
17:06:42 <pikhq_> The Y chromosome is basically a bunch of junk and a single gene that triggers being male.
17:06:46 <Fiora> or XY female where the sex determining part of Y goes on vacation
17:07:28 <Fiora> sex chromosomes are really interesting, I was reading about all the kinds of disorders that go along with them the other day
17:07:46 <Fiora> XXY, X, XXXY, XXYY
17:08:03 * Fiora has a neice with 'X' (Turner Syndrome)
17:08:14 <doesthiswork> in fruit flies they count how many x chromosome duplicates there are compared to the autosomal chromosome duplicates, if it's 1:1 then it's a girl if it's 1:2 then it's a boy
17:08:37 <doesthiswork> so you can get super female fruit flies by adding more x chromosomes
17:08:38 <Bike_> oh, i thought the ones where you only got one sex chromosomes generally killed you
17:08:52 <Fiora> Bike_: single X is an exception, I think?
17:08:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:09:01 <pikhq_> Bike_: The Y chromosome is nearly useless.
17:09:02 <Fiora> the results vary, it can be pretty bad or not very bad
17:09:31 <pikhq_> It's literally a single gene. Meaning that it *might* not be a big deal.
17:09:35 <Fiora> (she's lucky, other than stunted growth (which is somewhat vixable with hormones) she's pretty much largely normal.)
17:09:43 <Bike_> hm, Turner doesn't cause cognitive impairment
17:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> "Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder or ADHD (problems with concentration, memory, attention with hyperactivity seen mostly in childhood and adolescence)
17:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Nonverbal Learning Disability (problems with math, social skills and spatial relations)" -- WP
17:11:02 <Fiora> I think they say with hormones she'll end up being around 4'11" or so
17:11:21 <Fiora> ... oh right! I think I also knew someone in college who had Turner mosaicism, which is even weirder
17:11:36 <Bike_> part of your body only has one X, the rest is XX?
17:12:03 <Fiora> she wasn't diagnosed because mosaicness is trickier, I think
17:12:13 <Fiora> well, wasn't diagnosed early
17:17:14 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> so wait, are ginger cats called something else outside the uk
17:21:43 <kmc> sexual reproduction in fungi is even weirder
17:22:56 <metasepia> A fungus is a member of a large group of eukaryotic organisms that includes microorganisms such as yeasts and molds, as well as the more familiar mushrooms.
17:23:00 <ThatOtherPersonY> I still have trauma from learning about plant reproduction in biology, though
17:24:10 <boily> I once hit a classmate over the head with a biology schoolbook. considering the excessive weight of these manuals, I think I hurt him.
17:24:54 <Fiora> plant reproduction is really cool
17:25:47 <Phantom_Hoover> they had to split the class in two because so many people took it in their last year
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17:30:05 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
17:30:16 <Fiora> I took both, am I a heretic :<
17:30:45 <Bike_> did you know in olden times hermaphroditic plants were called "perfect"
17:30:59 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
17:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, well I took both too, but I think I'm the only one who did.
17:31:40 <Jafet> Today the term is reserved for humans.
17:31:44 <Jafet> @google biophysics
17:31:45 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophysics
17:31:46 <lambdabot> Title: Biophysics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> And I ended up dropping out when no universities gave it as a condition.
17:32:25 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophysical_chemistry
17:32:45 <Fiora> @google relativistic quantum chemistry
17:32:47 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_quantum_chemistry
17:32:47 <lambdabot> Title: Relativistic quantum chemistry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
17:32:54 <Fiora> (that one's my favorite of fields that are a mix of other fields, I think)
17:33:17 <lambdabot> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03014622
17:33:17 <Fiora> it just sounds so cool.
17:33:44 -!- super14 has joined.
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17:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> that's the one where you end up predicting the breakdown of the periodic table isn't it
17:37:53 <Taneb> Medvedev was a pretty cool guy
17:40:08 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: it's like, among other things the reason why gold is gold
17:40:25 <Fiora> (at higher atomic masses relativity starts affecting electron shells and thus chemistry)
17:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://i.imgur.com/ADwE9im.jpg
17:42:26 <Taneb> Another reason gold is gold: reflexivity of equality
17:42:44 <Fiora> gold (noun) is gold (color) -_- XD
17:42:45 <Taneb> monqy, subreddit for bitcoin discussion, presumably
17:43:08 <Taneb> For discussion bitcoins, of course
17:43:17 <Taneb> DISCUSSION BITCOINS
17:43:26 <ThatOtherPersonY> I don't know why, but I couldn't remember the word for a while there
17:43:55 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: wow, bitcoins got up to being worth 30°C
17:44:36 <Bike> also is the point of that graph "stop worrying guys it's just as stable as local weather"
17:44:42 <Bike> because i would not invest in the weather
17:45:10 <Phantom_Hoover> it's "well yeah bitcoin prices are following the exact same trend as the dot com bubble but this time it's different"
17:46:10 <Taneb> I'm glad I don't yet care about bitcoins
17:46:38 <ThatOtherPersonY> I don't care that I don't care about bitcoins, because I really don't care about them.
17:47:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: c.c
17:47:38 <kmc> you know if my local absolute temperature decreased by 70% in one day, I would be pretty worried
17:48:08 <Taneb> (aren't temperatures a thing percentages don't make sense for?)
17:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> there was also a post explaining why the bubble hasn't burst that literally opened with "bitcoin is different"
17:48:38 <kmc> Taneb: it makes sense if you use scale where 0 = absolute zero
17:48:48 <Bike> hear soon they'll be worth $10k
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17:49:20 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, yeah but temperature represents something absolutely mad mathematically
17:49:30 <Bike> unlike everything else in math
17:49:31 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the derivative of entropy wrt thermal energy i think
17:49:40 <kmc> seems p. legit
17:50:06 <Bike> also if your local temperature went down by 70% in one day i think you'd be more "dead" than "worried"
17:50:26 <monqy> worried first, then dead
17:50:27 <kmc> i thought it was just based on the average kinetic energy of particles
17:50:38 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a clever play on words here based on liquidity but i'm not sure what it is
17:50:40 <kmc> wp says E = ½kT
17:50:47 <kmc> not that it isn't also that thing you said
17:51:34 <Bike> let's see, if the temperature here went down by 70% it would be... -189°C
17:51:42 <Bike> "bet i could take it"
17:51:58 <Fiora> my cold tolerance isn't so good.
17:52:55 <Bike> oh huh, that low temp. at vostok base was lower than the freezing point of CO2
17:53:03 <Bike> er the sublimation point
17:53:27 <Bike> breathing must be difficult
17:53:39 <Fiora> "all your assets would freeze"
17:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> yes i seem to have introduced another pun accidentally
17:54:38 <Bike> "(Warning: 27 Mar 2013 - sublimation video contains java exploit malware, do not run the programme)" thanks wikipedia
17:54:45 <Taneb> Fiora, if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen
17:55:00 <Bike> that was worse.
17:55:00 -!- super15 has joined.
17:55:07 <Taneb> (I thaw-t it was pretty funny)
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17:55:36 * boily gently flogs Taneb with a slightly congealed cuttlefish
17:56:07 <Fiora> Taneb: your puns are truly sublime.
17:56:08 <Taneb> I wasn't expecting such an icy reception
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17:56:25 <Bike> holy christ, there were people /at/ the station
17:56:47 <monqy> how did they like it
17:56:59 <Bike> "An average windspeed of 5 m/s" what the fuck is wrong with antarctica
17:57:01 <Taneb> ThatOtherPersonY, github.com/ekmett/lens
17:57:17 <boily> ThatOtherPersonY: pfcuttle/SFL-Heritage
17:57:55 <monqy> is this some sort of male-ware ive been hearing about
17:58:11 <Bike> add failing and ifailing
17:58:30 * Fiora just glomps taneb because puns
17:58:35 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Wostok-Station_core32.jpg "yeah sure this is a place humans can live in"
17:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> omg if i highlight text it does it in proper perspective
18:00:39 <ThatOtherPersonY> Phantom_Hoover: But we already have a Marvel! It's part of a company called Disney, which, incidentally, is the parent company of Lucasfilm, the company which made Star Wars, upon which that scrolling log thingy is based.
18:00:44 <Taneb> Fiora, you're making my heart melt
18:03:54 <Fiora> can it be chocolate
18:03:58 <monqy> it's been like 3 minutes he's probably dead by now
18:04:02 <Taneb> ThatOtherPersonY, the shop in Hexham that sells nice ice cream closed down
18:04:36 <ThatOtherPersonY> Taneb: aw, that's terrible. But it should be enough to freeze your heart!
18:04:56 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:05:31 <ThatOtherPersonY> Taneb: I'm not sure if there's a shop that sells ice cream within sixty miles of me
18:05:52 <ThatOtherPersonY> Well, I guess there is a shop that sells ice cream, but not an ice cream shop.
18:05:53 <Taneb> ThatOtherPersonY, that's your own fault for living in a desert country as opposed to a dessert country
18:06:35 <ThatOtherPersonY> A dessert country would be wonderful, with ice cream mountains and chocolate waterfalls
18:06:56 <Taneb> The nearest shop that specializes in ice cream is probably about 12 miles away
18:07:17 -!- super15 has left.
18:12:45 <ThatOtherPersonY> You can get ice cream at the store 5 minutes away, but there isn't a shop that specializes in ice cream for a ways
18:13:29 * boily nervously checks on google maps...
18:14:02 <boily> everything is fine. there's a gelateria within half a kilometre.
18:14:05 <olsner> do canadians also use "octets" instead of bytes?
18:14:17 -!- nortti_ has joined.
18:14:18 <boily> olsner: in French, yes.
18:14:51 <boily> there are some disputes over the proper pronunciation of giga- (with a soft or a hard g), but otherwise everything's pretty consistent.
18:15:10 <metasepia> CYUL 121813Z 06018KT 3/4SM R06L/3000V5000FT/D R06R/3500V6000FT/D -SN VV006 M00/M01 A2991 RMK SN8 SLP131
18:15:18 <boily> ah! it stopped -PLSNing.
18:15:30 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
18:16:39 <boily> ThatOtherPerson: y?
18:17:17 <olsner> PLSN = snowing with ice pellets?
18:17:30 -!- nortti_ has changed nick to nortti.
18:17:45 <ThatOtherPerson> boily: I am a shapeshifter! Seismologicate in this knowledge!
18:18:19 <boily> `quote seismologicate
18:19:10 <boily> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=rXyv0cgW
18:20:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:26:05 <ThatOtherPerson> I was staring at my screen, unsure about what I should use as an IRC nick. I was tired. I typed ThatOtherPersonYouDon'tKnow. IRC shortened it to ThatOtherPersonY.
18:26:24 * Taneb sits down in a circle
18:26:31 <ThatOtherPerson> Eventually I decided that the Y just looked silly, and removed it. It is now my alt nick.
18:27:41 <Taneb> "Taneb" is a portmanteau of the reverses of the first three letters of my name and my brother's name, originally used on a shared account
18:27:55 * boily spreads holy salt around Taneb
18:28:13 <nortti> nortti comes from my old nick which my irc client mangled
18:28:13 <olsner> how did you get holes in your salt?
18:28:19 <Taneb> If you mix holy salt and holy water, do you get holy brine?
18:28:55 * Fiora adds hers? Fiora is a pegasus knight in Fire Emblem 7. Florina, her sister, is more of a 'me' character, but I preferred Fiora as a username.
18:29:16 <boily> my nick is my family name.
18:29:51 <Taneb> My first alternate nick, "Ngevd", is my initials
18:30:13 <boily> Taneb: next time I'm DMing, I'll have to add that holy brine (with your consent, of course. Is your brine CC licensed?)
18:30:15 <Taneb> Plus an e, which was almost in my name but my name was getting pretty long already
18:30:22 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: You have a lot of names, which is unsurprising, since you have many nicks.
18:30:23 <Taneb> boily, brine is public domain
18:30:32 <Taneb> Nathan George van Doorn
18:30:41 <Taneb> The e stands for Eliot
18:31:01 <Taneb> My third alternate nick, "atriq", is rot13 of ngevd
18:31:15 <Taneb> My fourth alternate nick, which I've never used on IRC, is "askit0"
18:32:06 <Taneb> My FIFTH nick, I've only used once
18:32:25 <FireFly> My nick doesn't have an interesting story
18:32:44 <FireFly> Though my alt-nick is my main nick with its letters sorted alphabetically
18:32:52 <olsner> hmm, this reddit seems to consistently write spoiler links the wrong way around so that nothing ends up hidden
18:33:06 <HackEgo> 2013-03-25 08:48:01: <Effilry> Is there a difference between >< and .. ?
18:33:42 <olsner> (and the instructions as they show for me: "Use: [Hidden inside brackets](/hide) Result: Hidden inside brackets")
18:37:32 <FireFly> Fiora: which game in the series is FE7?
18:39:53 <ThatOtherPerson> I would assume that it was the seventh, but I really wouldn't know.
18:40:34 <Taneb> I have a feeling Fire Emblem was weird with the imports
18:41:40 <FireFly> Well, I meant what subtitle did it have
18:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> my nick is some words i thought were funny when i was like 12
18:43:46 <monqy> > sort "Phantom_Hoover"
18:43:52 -!- mekeor has joined.
18:44:38 <Fiora> Taneb: it was the first one released in the US, I think?
18:44:55 <Fiora> the one with Lyn and Eliwood
18:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> also i kind of thought Fiora was Fiona with a bit rubbed out
18:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> oh fuck the cat brought another mouse into the front room
18:47:12 <Fiora> ummm n is 6E, r is 72
18:47:17 <boily> meh. IRC won't let me /nick boıly.
18:47:18 <Fiora> that's a pretty large Hamming distance isn't it?
18:47:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Friendship Mouse III?
18:47:48 <Bike> Fiora: like, physically scratching out part of the n grapheme
18:48:08 <monqy> there was a frienship mouse ii???
18:48:23 <Taneb> monqy, yes, it was I
18:48:27 <Fiora> sorry, I misinterpreted bit -_-
18:48:48 <Fiora> unfortunately since I picked this nickname there are now, like. two higher profile characters who stolesit
18:49:02 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora: Now I am really beginning to suspect that you are a bot.
18:49:18 <monqy> can always change your name
18:49:21 <monqy> i do it all the time
18:49:41 <AnotherTest> A suspected bot that suspects someone else is a bot... suspicious...
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19:01:29 <ThatOtherPerson> You're going to need some rainbows, and some sparkles, and certainly some Magic Markers.
19:02:29 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
19:03:08 <Fiora> Bike: for some reason I'm reminded of stargirl
19:03:38 -!- SirCmpwn has quit (Excess Flood).
19:04:29 <HackEgo> 496) <Phantom_Hoover> I keep asking random people for "friendship <thing>" and it's crippling
19:05:59 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
19:06:26 <Fiora> Bike: "I am not a bot, I am a human girl"
19:07:13 <shachaf> Fiora: those two statements contradict each other hth
19:08:07 -!- Bike_ has joined.
19:10:33 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:11:24 <Fiora> I meant to shachaf
19:12:51 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:14:19 <shachaf> the joke is that humans are bots
19:16:27 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turk human bot?!
19:25:14 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora cannot be a bot, since bots never lie, and she said that she was not a bot.
19:34:24 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:37:16 -!- Bike has joined.
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19:44:57 * Fiora looks herself over for a moment
19:45:04 <Fiora> well if I'm a bot I guess I'm a pretty realistic one?
19:45:17 <Fiora> to be fair I guess being a gynoid would be pretty cool.
19:45:32 <Lumpio-> Would kind of depend on the level of AI though
19:45:49 <Bike> fiora's AI is pretty good, she can flatten me in scrabble and pitched combat
19:47:37 <shachaf> What does an unrealistic bot look like?
19:50:07 <kmc> it's cool that big battle scenes in movies are done by programming AIs to swordfight
19:50:32 <Fiora> I know a little fencing at least but I'm pretty sure nitya could crush me in said pitched battle
19:51:08 <Lumpio-> Especially if he brings a gun.
19:52:57 <Fiora> sorry for switching your screen names around
19:57:33 <Fiora> though it might be a contest in who is the most out of shape
19:59:11 <Bike> hey, i work out! sometimes. a little.
20:06:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not actually sure how applicable fencing skills are to killing someone with a sword
20:07:09 <ThatOtherPerson> If you know how to fence it will probably be easier to kill someone with a sword than if you only know how to box.
20:11:22 <kmc> there's a rule in (some kinds of) fencing which is meant to model the fact that, in a real sword fight, people will try to avoid outcomes where you both end up stabbed
20:12:35 -!- nooodl has joined.
20:14:20 <Lymia> "2.32s" "Your website is faster than 65% of all tested websites"
20:14:25 <Fiora> I think epee is the one that has the fewest restrictions?
20:14:35 <Fiora> I did foil though, it was just a PE elective requirement thing
20:14:59 <metasepia> A fencing sword with a bowl-shaped guard and a long, narrow, fluted blade that has no cutting edge and tapers to a blunted point.
20:15:31 * boily whips duck duck go with a +1 metasepia of Unicode
20:15:37 <Fiora> also bike is like a foot taller so he'd probably win
20:17:07 <Fiora> it was fun and interesting though, in between bouts of huffing at my asthma inhaler XD
20:18:15 <kmc> ttants: epee, epi pen
20:18:46 <kmc> Fiora: i did foil too
20:18:51 <kmc> in college freshman PE
20:19:03 <Fiora> sounds like we basically did the same kind of thing
20:19:31 <kmc> "While still in use with many classical fencers, most competitive sport fencers, including Italians have abandoned the Italian grip in favour of the anatomical grip."
20:19:37 <kmc> "you know, the one that actually fits a human hand"
20:21:17 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sabatons_evolution_by_Wendelin_Boeheim.jpg nah man the renaissance was wear it was /at/
20:21:20 <Bike> (these are shoes)
20:21:36 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah we had to take 3 PE classes
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20:21:52 <kmc> it could be worse, MIT has a swim test
20:21:58 <kmc> you can't graduate MIT unless you can swim 100 yards
20:22:04 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: because we were a bunch of nerds
20:22:15 <kmc> there's actually a documentary about how bad the Caltech basketball team is
20:22:41 <Bike> is there an MIT tradition to throw you into the Charles or something
20:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> it's just, like, i associate mandatory sport with primary school
20:22:52 <Bike> (probably not, since you'd die)
20:22:55 <kmc> our fencing team was really good though, because we had one guy who was a math postdoc and also happened to be formerly of the romanian olympic fencing team, or something
20:22:58 <kmc> Bike: yuck
20:23:11 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah there's a weird number of mathematicians in fencing
20:23:28 <Fiora> yeah, we had to do 3 PE classes too
20:23:43 <Fiora> my lungs were not happy -_-
20:24:00 * kmc is curious where Fiora went to school, but maybe it's too personal? doesn't matter
20:24:13 <kmc> people say the MIT swim test is supposed to make sure you can swim to shore if you fall in the river
20:24:16 <kmc> but it's not enough
20:24:30 <kmc> at the widest point it's more like 2000 ft across
20:24:38 <kmc> I.E. 611 METERS
20:24:56 <Bike> there are a few colleges with mandatory PE here but i've managed to avoid them
20:25:02 <kmc> it's not so much a "river" as a tidally locked basin thingy
20:25:07 <Bike> once i get back i'll maybe do rowing voluntarily though
20:25:24 <kmc> it's amusing to watch them practice rowing
20:25:30 <kmc> because there are four guys in a boat working their asses off
20:25:38 <kmc> and the coach is cruising alongside yelling at them with a megaphone
20:25:38 <Bike> and then the coxswain yeah
20:26:08 <Bike> i did it in high school, it wasn't quite that hardcore but it was fun even if i was the wussiest guy there
20:26:17 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: Luxembour
20:26:53 <Phantom_Hoover> also i utterly hated pe, relatedly: my school was a Rugby School
20:28:04 <Bike> what does where i am have to do with this though? rowing's a pretty common collegiate sport
20:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> well because phrases like 'once i get back' are confusing without context
20:28:48 <Bike> once i get back to school
20:38:12 <Fiora> PE was the worst in elementary school, I think
20:38:25 <Fiora> at least in college I could pick the class, but...
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20:46:47 <Fiora> I remember in elementary school a big component of the "curriculum" was these national physical fitness test things
20:47:04 <Fiora> I think the only one I did well on was the v-sit/reach
20:47:30 <kmc> i think i failed horribly at all of them
20:47:34 <kmc> i'm marginally more in shape now
20:47:52 <kmc> gotta get in better shape
20:47:58 <Fiora> I'm not sure if pullups or the mile was the worst
20:48:04 <Fiora> pullups for being more impossible than reversing entropy
20:48:15 <Fiora> the mile for making me smuggle in my asthma inhaler
20:52:04 <Fiora> I don't think they let people have it with them, like, you'd have to go to the nurse
20:52:37 -!- mekeor has quit (Quit: bye bye :)).
20:53:40 <Fiora> they didn't want to trust 10 year olds with drugs I don't know @_@
20:55:12 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: D.A.R.E. to say "NO!" to drugs and alcohol!
20:56:29 <kmc> Drug Abuse Resistance Education i think
20:56:46 <kmc> it's propaganda in US schools about how if you ever smoke a joint you'll end up dead and in jail and addicted to crack
20:57:16 <kmc> and generally normalizing the idea of a militarized police force which is at war with the citizens of the country
20:57:19 <kmc> perpetually
20:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> is that why you need assault rifles to defend your freedom
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20:59:56 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: that reminds me of this http://25.media.tumblr.com/6c98d68b7bb93d733317ee636aa03d7e/tumblr_ml3q2eJTdu1qijn6po1_1280.jpg
21:00:28 <Bike> grimm's is banned somewhere?
21:01:50 <kmc> Fiora: ;_;
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21:03:07 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: http://bash.org/?409
21:04:19 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a84de1d56c5d159132410ae282879ac8/tumblr_ml5safBANV1qzeo2zo1_1280.gif related?
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21:04:47 <kmc> http://www.somethingawful.com/d/photoshop-phriday/bin-ladens-mountain.php
21:05:14 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:05:25 <Bike> http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/binladenfortress/clockworkjoe-dungeon.jpg nailed it
21:07:47 <kmc> http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/binladenfortress/deliverator-crystal.jpg
21:07:58 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: not even remotely
21:08:06 <kmc> well it turned out he didn't have so much of a "mountain fortress" as a "house in suburbia with a huge stash of porn"
21:08:19 <Bike> no, this is about tora bora
21:08:27 <Bike> which was a bunch of mostly natural caves with a bit of wood
21:08:36 <Bike> well a lot of wood, given the porn, i guess
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21:56:51 <zzo38> This Z-machine assembler works now. (Currently it is called "Frolg" after a Zork spell.) http://sprunge.us/PXBb http://sprunge.us/hQjg Please tell me any question/comment/complaints/suggestions.
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22:23:36 <shachaf> Oh, Zork II, with the wand?
22:24:02 <zzo38> I don't know which ones, but I mean the Zork series of games and some unofficial games based on the Zork spells.
22:26:58 <shachaf> It's (spoilers) glorf spelled backwards.
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22:27:59 <zzo38> I know that; the spells which are reverse are given the name spelled backwards.
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22:28:53 <zzo38> Maybe some day. Not now.
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22:30:25 <zzo38> Because I don't have it now!
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22:31:08 <shachaf> You can get it at http://www.gog.com/gamecard/zork_grand_inquisitor
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22:41:33 <Fiora> kmc: http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/MTGOXUSD
22:42:23 <kmc> it was on CNBC tv even
22:42:26 <kmc> strange times
22:42:32 <Sgeo> MY MONEY. TO SPEND.
22:47:51 <Fiora> I did buy btc! I just bought them back at 1/3 of the price I sold them <.< >.>
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22:48:41 <shachaf> kmc knows all about buying while high
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22:51:24 <kmc> Fiora: did you short??
22:51:39 <Fiora> I don't think one can easily short bitcoins...?
22:51:59 <Fiora> shorting is really dangerous, though, I'm not that crazy
22:52:18 <shachaf> copumpkin used to lend BTC, didn't he?
22:52:22 <Fiora> without a proper options framework it's basically infinite loss potential, and you're betting on a market that can be incredibly irrational
22:53:07 <Fiora> the only kind of short I'd ever even think about is either an options spread or a sell-put
22:53:10 <kmc> but you can always just disappear and not pay back your debt anyway
22:53:14 <oerjan> shachaf: wait is this part of that "distinguish drugs from complexity classes" quiz?
22:53:20 <Fiora> sell-put is nice because it's basically equivalent to owning the stock
22:53:30 <Fiora> or wait no that's not a short bet -_-
22:53:32 <Fiora> buying the put is, agh.
22:53:33 <kmc> Fiora: you can short safely without derivatives if you have a system of brokers and margin calls and such
22:53:49 <Fiora> yeah, but like, that means if the price goes up too much you lose everything
22:53:52 <Fiora> because you have to do a stop loss thing
22:53:53 <shachaf> oerjan: no it's just part of the "kmc is such a stoner" thing. not that he actually is (or is he?? we may never know)
22:54:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i meant the BTC part
22:54:12 <kmc> shachaf: i'm usually not
22:54:14 <oerjan> but then i realized that was bitcoins
22:54:17 <Fiora> and "I bet that bitcoins will not rise past X" sounds about as risky as like. trying to dash across a highway
22:54:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's when you touch both ends of a wire.
22:54:39 <kmc> but i still think jokes about weed are hilarious, so maybe that makes me a stoner even if i don't smoke up hardly ever?
22:54:41 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Borrowing a thing, selling it, and buying it back later to return it (when it's hopefully cheaper).
22:55:59 <shachaf> kmc: does that mean you can be a stoner without ever stoning (or however that works)
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22:56:32 <Bike> the true weed is not the weed that can be spoken of
22:57:05 <kmc> shachaf: possibly?!?!?
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22:58:42 <shachaf> The other day my friend tried to get me to "smoke a fat bowl" with her. It was funny.
23:03:26 <doesthiswork> think of all the esoteric languages you could have designed
23:06:47 <oerjan> i'm afraid esoteric languages on drugs all resemble bf derivatives
23:10:27 <kmc> Category:Shameful
23:12:08 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
23:12:16 <HackEgo> 1023) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
23:14:35 <HackEgo> 1022) <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
23:14:54 <fungot> shachaf: yeah so its not sqrt, it's a fnord that would work too, but...) anyway, what is
23:14:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:15:05 <oerjan> @tell taneb * oerjan swats Taneb for incorrect quote spacing -----###
23:15:17 <shachaf> fungot: do you love monoids
23:15:18 <fungot> shachaf: i pasted it there during summer :)
23:15:34 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1022s/ / /' quotes
23:15:42 <HackEgo> 1022) <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
23:17:51 <shachaf> DRATSAY WILLFULLY AVOID SENDING SPIRIT THROUGH TIME
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23:18:17 <oerjan> `welcome mohammadaljrrah_
23:18:20 <HackEgo> mohammadaljrrah_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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23:18:33 <HackEgo> mnoqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:18:43 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you monqy's evil twin
23:18:49 <Bike> > sort "mohammadaljrrah_"
23:19:00 <mnoqy> shachaf: close enough
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23:19:18 <shachaf> mnoqy: is monqy the evil twin
23:19:41 <oerjan> monqy is beyond good and evil
23:20:10 <shachaf> oh monqy was written by nietzsche?
23:20:49 <shachaf> yqnom was written by ehcsztein?
23:20:52 <Bike> mohammad is dead and we have killed them
23:21:27 <oerjan> shachaf: i knew you were going to say that.
23:21:47 <shachaf> oerjan: how long did you know
23:22:00 <shachaf> did you figure it out last year? way back when i first joined the channel?
23:22:05 <shachaf> yesterday? a few seconds before i said it?
23:22:20 <shachaf> if it was just a few seconds then imo it's not so impressive
23:22:38 <oerjan> Echsztein, the famous jew who got his philosophy ripped off by the Sizan.
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23:23:51 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't make impressions.
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23:24:28 <Bike> wait does this mean nietzsche was a wej
23:24:53 <oerjan> possibly. what is a wej
23:24:58 <shachaf> oerjan is spreading the tired rumour that if you play Nietzsche backwards you hear Jewish messages.
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23:25:25 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> oerjan is spreading the tired rumour that if you play Nietzsche backwards you hear Jewish messages.
23:25:33 <HackEgo> 1024) <shachaf> oerjan is spreading the tired rumour that if you play Nietzsche backwards you hear Jewish messages.
23:26:05 <shachaf> Now we're getting somewhere.
23:26:19 <shachaf> Finally an even number of quotes.
23:28:34 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
23:28:48 <oerjan> @tell Taneb Also, it's `? qdbformat
23:29:10 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also qdbformat
23:29:32 <shachaf> `run ln -s qdbformat wisdom/qdbfmt
23:29:38 <shachaf> `run ln -s qdbformat wisdom/qdbrules
23:30:13 <HackEgo> =}j/n=2ע{-IPD)X?{x7ܪ*>\ r}@<Sov,3iOY~FLz/ \ RC$|Jl<˜]1"A.%{7ez.)`[m?GtLo@Ȗ6b`4( \ e㙡0]PLG0jTɆS-n:.$9.lӡHZ,T$N'.10iދֻ|>סyrw6oQheY7?8s{=Na>TtЬ.<&mz9&/$,OT
23:30:17 <oerjan> neither of those is what Taneb tried btw
23:30:43 <shachaf> ln -s qdbformat wisdom/quoteformat
23:30:52 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
23:30:58 <shachaf> `run ln -s qdbformat wisdom/quoteformat
23:31:15 <HackEgo> r0M:v=h3W-HQΌs.3zI: bT[ђuZ +mmZ-6r/ziTDŰ庀H$@995Y")&/*u@7h*XiC
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23:31:36 <shachaf> I don't remember how it went.
23:34:24 * oerjan swats elliott for not fixing Taneb's quote despite commenting on the error -----###
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23:43:46 <oerjan> <boily> hagb4rd: green on black is retro and hip.
23:44:02 * oerjan use genuine VT's back in the early 90's
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01:25:10 <btiffin> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cbrain#When_is_Easter.3F The computus in cbrain
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01:27:42 <btiffin> Yep, but it can fall back to COBOL accept if the call to readline fails
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01:29:14 <btiffin> Part of the cbrain game is that it's built for COBOL, and I wanted a relatively sane RE loop
01:31:40 <btiffin> :-) Went overboard on the CB slang too Bike, put 1094 in a cell and request help and you get a frogSort.
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01:40:51 <shachaf> Hard terminals? Those are ones that aren't monoids?
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01:43:57 <kmc> sequences of ECMA-48 commands should form a monoid, yes
01:44:11 <kmc> or rather a whole bunch of them
01:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperspace_(science_fiction)#Babylon_5
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01:45:24 <kmc> most obviously the free monoid on characters, but also various monoids with stronger equivalence relations that understand that e.g. two moves in a row can be coalesced
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01:45:53 <kmc> is there a term for a monoid that's built from a free monoid + a normalization operator that you apply to words after concatenating them?
01:46:19 <shachaf> Can't you build any monoid that way?
01:46:42 <kmc> monoid presentation?
01:47:01 <oerjan> there might not be a canonical normal form that is computable
01:47:30 <oerjan> if the word problem isn't decidable
01:48:50 <oerjan> if you don't care about computability, you can of course just choose the shortest representation in lexicographic order
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01:51:12 <Bike_> Just not as catchy as the original.
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01:51:23 <shachaf> mnoqy: are free groups "cooler than" free monoids
01:51:30 <shachaf> this question goes for the rest of you
01:51:38 <mnoqy> depends on what you mean by cooler
01:52:02 <shachaf> so it depends on what YOU MEAN BY "cooler"??
01:52:09 <mnoqy> ???????????????????????????????????
01:52:19 <mnoqy> free monoids come up more in day to day life
01:52:29 <shachaf> p. sure that makes them "less cool"
01:52:29 <Sgeo> I ate surloin steak
01:52:32 <mnoqy> and are easier to construct
01:52:55 <mnoqy> easier/less finicky
01:53:25 <mnoqy> the ~usual~ construction of free groups is pretty finicky but i hear there's a nice way to do it with topology
01:53:54 <shachaf> nb. i know almost nothing bout topology
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01:55:12 <mnoqy> and of course ther'es the category-theoretical way where you use the whatever adjoint functor theorem to construct a left adjoint to the forgetful functor. i forget the process in there but Mac Lane ~claims~ it's nicer than the usual construction
01:55:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: wait there's a process ?????
01:55:40 <shachaf> what's the whatever adjoint functor theorem
01:55:59 -!- Bicyclidine has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:57:58 <mnoqy> (The Freyd Adjoint Functor Theorem). Given a small-complete category A with small hom-sets, a functor G : A -> X has a left adjoint if and only if it preserves all small limits and satisfies the following Solution Set Condition: For each object x \in X there is a small set I and an I-indexed family of arrows f_i : x -> G a_i such that every arrow h : x -> G a can be written as a composite h = G t
01:58:04 <mnoqy> \circ f_i for some index i and some t : a_i -> a
01:59:29 <mnoqy> and then it goes on to construct the free group from the forgetful functor U : Grp -> Set
02:00:29 <mnoqy> my eyes darted between the forgetful functor and its adjoint
02:00:57 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you forgetful because of adjoint
02:01:07 <shachaf> i didn't know you were doing higher category theory
02:01:31 <mnoqy> "This left adjoint F : Set -> Grp assigns to each set X the free group F X generated by X, so our theorem has produced this free group without entering into the usual (rather fussy) explicit construction of the elements of F X as equivalence classes of words in letters of X."
02:02:27 <mnoqy> im on the monads&algebras chapter right now it's between that chapter and adjoints and the chapter on monoids
02:02:37 <shachaf> you know how in haskell you can say newtype FreeGroup a = FreeGroup { runFreeGroup :: Group g => (a -> g) -> g }
02:03:13 <mnoqy> i'll be right back and then i can figure out if i know that
02:03:44 <shachaf> anyway let me look at that theorem
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02:15:24 <FreeFull> For some reason Idris seems more understandable to me than Agda
02:15:43 <mnoqy> ok i think i understand that definition of free groups in haskell
02:17:21 <mnoqy> i dont get why you used it
02:17:35 <mnoqy> the ???? was also to FreeFull as well
02:18:23 <shachaf> what about this: newtype Free k a = Free { runFree :: forall r. k a => (a -> r) -> r }
02:19:03 <mnoqy> by k a do you mean k r?
02:19:46 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
02:19:50 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
02:19:57 <zzo38> Yes I have seen that kind of Free
02:20:12 <shachaf> mnoqy: what about this: Free (Algebra f)
02:20:28 <Bicyclid1ne> is there a math thing called "group" other than the usual one because i swear i will punch everybody
02:20:43 <shachaf> Bicyclid1ne: there's a whole group of things called "group"
02:20:43 <mnoqy> Bicyclid1ne: nah this is the same group
02:21:23 <FreeFull> Bicyclid1ne: Are you going to throw a magma at someone?
02:22:37 <mnoqy> shachaf: and that definition of "Free" looks right..well...about as right you can reasonably get with haskell
02:23:13 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you hinting "that type classes are bad" "and that independent types are bad for getting things right.."
02:23:23 <shachaf> mostly the latter maybe i don''t know....
02:23:27 <oerjan> FreeFull: don't you mean groupoid? * runs away
02:23:46 <shachaf> mnoqy: so Free (Algebra f) gives you a free monad??
02:24:01 <oerjan> (spot why this is relevant)
02:24:38 <zzo38> Yes, although I don't like using Algebra as a class, but yes it can work
02:25:02 <zzo38> CodensityAsk is similar but without class.
02:25:15 <zzo38> Both kinds can be meaningful though.
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02:25:36 <shachaf> Now I understand what CodensityAsk is.
02:25:37 <FreeFull> Groupoid takes two arguments and is a data constructor. g doesn't seem to take any arguments
02:25:52 <FreeFull> And Group seems to be a typeclass
02:26:38 <mnoqy> shachaf: no i'm hinting at you're really working in 2 different categories and sometimes your morphisms are weird (group homomorphims??? it could happen).. i'm also hinting at there's the thing where for free objects you have a (natural)bijection of hom-sets not just an 1-way assignment
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02:26:51 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh there's that too
02:27:03 <oerjan> FreeFull: you didn't get the reference sorry
02:27:04 <shachaf> because you get the (-> r) (-> r) pattern from the adjunction??
02:27:25 <FreeFull> oerjan: xoid is something x-like and that's all I get
02:27:29 <mnoqy> well you understand how free objects work right?
02:27:35 <oerjan> (the point is that groupoid _is_ a math thing other than the usual groupoid)
02:27:56 <shachaf> wait what's a free object in terms of free functors
02:28:11 <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
02:28:18 <oerjan> Bicyclid1ne: it can mean either magma, or category with all morphisms invertible
02:28:29 <mnoqy> shachaf: free object is any image of a free functor's object function
02:28:37 <coppro> `addquote <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
02:28:41 <HackEgo> 1025) <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
02:29:26 <shachaf> `run quote | head -n4; quote | tail -n1
02:29:28 <HackEgo> 439) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ 870) <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:29:40 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> combinatronics seems to be the mathematics chasing buddha's tail <itidus20> yeah.. he was a smart monkey that buddha
02:30:29 <FreeFull> Now to show how a pikachu is a monoid
02:30:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quitidus21: not found
02:30:58 <mnoqy> shachaf: so the adjunction looks a bit like hom(F a, b) \cong hom(a, U b)... i.e. for any [group] b can extend any function from a to the underlying set of b to a ~unique~ morphism from the free group to b
02:30:59 <shachaf> oh no is that how they made itidus21 leave the channel
02:31:26 <mnoqy> shachaf: if you're familiar with linear algebra, this is a lot like how linear transformations are defined by their action on the basis. this is because all vector spaces are free.
02:31:59 <shachaf> mnoqy: and with monoids that's like foldMap
02:32:08 <oerjan> buddha was known to outsmart monkeys
02:32:34 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
02:32:38 <shachaf> you can turn a a function (a -> b) to the monoid homomorphism ([a] -> b)
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02:33:04 <shachaf> which in haskell we just represent as a function anyway
02:33:59 <mnoqy> so for that freegroup defn what you're doing is just representing the free group on a by this map from a->Uq functions to Fa->q morphismssms
02:34:24 <shachaf> right, same as the free monoid
02:34:26 <mnoqy> and this generalizes to any category with free objects not just Grp
02:34:29 <shachaf> representing a list by its foldMap function
02:34:58 <shachaf> (which by the way lets you express more than lists. but that's because haskell people are naughty)
02:35:20 <shachaf> zzo38: Maybe you should call CodensityAsk something with a "free" in its name.
02:35:33 <mnoqy> well that's just because of that thing where haskell functions aren't monoid homomorphisms and you're not required to bijection
02:35:57 <shachaf> no i mean the whole "infinite folds thing"
02:36:01 <shachaf> (or do you mean that too?????)
02:37:12 <mnoqy> FreeFull: default instances
02:37:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Monoid.Monoid GHC.Types.Int)
02:37:40 <FreeFull> I guess for [] it tries mempty
02:38:01 <shachaf> mnoqy: well it has to try something
02:38:20 <mnoqy> shachaf: yes but i mean it's less about trying mempty and more about trying () as its default instance for Monoid
02:38:31 <FreeFull> > foldMap id ([] :: [Sum Int])
02:38:43 <shachaf> if that didn't work it would try mappend mempty mempty
02:38:52 <shachaf> don't you know how computers work
02:38:52 <FreeFull> () is a good default for mempty
02:39:07 <shachaf> as FreeFull says () is a good default for mempty
02:39:20 <shachaf> class Monoid m where mempty :: m; mempty = (); mappend :: m -> m -> m
02:39:25 <FreeFull> () is in general a good default, except when it's not and monomorphism restriction is fucking with you
02:43:29 <shachaf> mnoqy: is your nick mnoqy 'because a message was sent to monqy'
02:44:11 <FreeFull> () tells you nothing whatsoever other than "Yup. There's a () here. It's not a bottom."
02:44:25 <shachaf> that's a lot of telling. . . .
02:45:03 <FreeFull> It's the minimum amount of telling without having just a bottom (Not to be confused with Just bottom)
02:45:40 <Bicyclid1ne> I think that's debateable, I mean, what if you knew it was an Integer? That narrows it down but there's still infinite objects it could be.
02:46:01 <FreeFull> The Eq and Ord instances for () aren't lazy
02:46:58 <FreeFull> Bicyclid1ne: "Yup. There is an Integer here. It has this and that value. It's not a bottom"
02:47:45 <mnoqy> shachaf: not that i know of...
02:47:56 <FreeFull> > take 4 . show $ [1,2,3,undefined]
02:48:10 <Jafet> There should be a bottom bit, which is filled in by expressions that would be bottom.
02:48:30 <Bicyclid1ne> because the evil bit joke just wasn't dorky enough
02:48:49 <FreeFull> Jafet: Well, if you actually have the Integer, then you know it's not a bottom
02:48:58 <FreeFull> And if you have a bottom, you don't know it's not a bottom
02:49:06 <shachaf> Bicyclid1ne: hey remember slashdot on "evil bit day"
02:49:13 <FreeFull> I mean, you don't know it's a bottom
02:49:25 <Bicyclid1ne> shachaf: why the fuck would i remember slashdot anything
02:49:52 <mnoqy> some bottoms are nicer than others
02:50:38 <mnoqy> divergence has that fun property where something something halting problem good luck telling if it's a bottom or just taking a long time to evaluate
02:50:57 <mnoqy> but why would you care
02:51:04 <shachaf> oh man i love that property
02:51:28 <FreeFull> I mean, you can tell something is an error
02:51:58 <mnoqy> is there a finnish crissis
02:52:02 <Jafet> Ok, reserving one bit for bottom is a waste, since in any sensible program you shouldn't get bottoms. So for Integer it should be like variable length to make it less important than actual integers, like 111...
02:52:42 <shachaf> mnoqy: they switched to dst?? :'(
02:52:59 <mnoqy> alt. serves em right. gosh ive been in dst for (weeks???)
02:53:03 <shachaf> Sat Apr 13 05:51:17 EEST 2013 Europe/Helsinki
02:53:03 <shachaf> Fri Apr 12 22:51:17 EDT 2013 America/New_York
02:53:16 <FreeFull> Jafet: What about () and other equivalent types?
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02:53:41 <FreeFull> Those don't even exist at runtime AFAIK, at least not with GHC-compiled code
02:54:51 <shachaf> ion: plz rename your time zone to something with three characters
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03:03:13 <Fiora> relaxing at home because it's a friday and yay
03:03:28 <kmc> FreeFull: () exists at runtime
03:03:31 <pikhq_> Playing video games cause yaaay.
03:04:30 <kmc> the value is represented by a pointer to a heap object, like any other value whose type has kind *
03:04:50 <kmc> except that since there's only one value () in the world, that object is allocated statically
03:05:00 <kmc> same for True and False and Nothing and other nullary type constructors
03:05:24 <Bike> Surely optimization must elide it being represented in some cases.
03:05:56 <kmc> FreeFull: there are types in GHC that have no runtime representation (such as State# t) but they don't have kind * and can't be used polymorphically
03:06:11 <Fiora> kmc: so that means that the compiler can do things like "if object == ()" by doing a pointer comparison?
03:06:32 <kmc> yep, but don't know if it does
03:06:42 <shachaf> In practice it'll probably check a tag bit in that case.
03:06:53 <kmc> right, yeah, it can't really do that
03:07:00 <kmc> because one side of the == might be an unevaluated thunk
03:07:02 <Bike> amazing how tagged the STG seems to be
03:07:04 <shachaf> If I give you a () it could be an unev -- that.
03:07:08 <kmc> it would have to perfrom some arbitrary computation first
03:07:18 <kmc> Bike: it's tagged in a different sense from the original "tagless"
03:07:24 <Fiora> but, like, wouldn't the pointer comparison still fail?
03:07:34 <Bike> Fiora: but it wouldn't succeed for real ()s.
03:07:46 <Fiora> so real ()s haven't be evaluated to static ()s
03:07:47 <kmc> true, you could have a fast check and then a slow check if they aren't equal
03:07:52 <Bike> Since haskell is nonstrict.
03:07:57 <kmc> i'm not sure that (==) on () is strict, anyway...
03:08:02 <shachaf> kmc: But it's even faster to just check the tag bit.
03:08:04 <kmc> > (undefined :: ()) == ()
03:08:06 <shachaf> Wait, which == are we talking about here?
03:08:08 <kmc> shachaf: yes, if the tag bit is there
03:08:14 <kmc> the one in Eq i assumed?
03:08:28 <shachaf> I didn't even read the question properly.
03:08:52 <shachaf> kmc: So you're talking about the case where you have a pointer to the static () object, but it's not tagged?
03:12:03 <shachaf> GHC optimizes "data Result = Yes | No; foo x | x == () = Yes | otherwise = No" to "foo = \x -> case x of _ { () -> Yes }"
03:14:14 <Bike> How do you see what it optimizes to?
03:14:36 <shachaf> Lots and lots of wishful thinking.
03:14:45 <Bike> Ah, the usual.
03:15:49 <shachaf> Anyway that means that it checks the tags on its argument and then either "returns" Yes directy or evaluates the thunk and "then" "returns" Yes.
03:17:55 <FreeFull> If not for those darn bottoms, it wouldn't make a difference =P
03:22:13 <coppro> why isn't it just "foo = const True"?
03:22:30 <shachaf> Because (undefined == ()) isn't True
03:23:11 <zzo38> But it can't be false either, if it is not defined.
03:23:46 <shachaf> halting problem more like "computers are stupid and i hate them problem"
03:23:53 <shachaf> coppro: Yep, that's what that foo code means.
03:24:32 <Sgeo> Fun fact: You can't do case null in Java
03:24:42 <Sgeo> Only way to catch that case is default
03:24:46 <Bike> Is case null a sex position?
03:25:04 <shachaf> fun fact: why is Sgeo saying things
03:25:28 <shachaf> i don't understand the things he's saying : :
03:25:41 <Sgeo> Because I'm starting to see the subtle good parts in Java and the subtle bad parts in Java, rather than just the obvious bad parts in Java
03:26:04 <GreaseMonkey> the obvious good things about java is that you can get some results
03:26:47 <Sgeo> How about package naming convention?
03:27:39 <Sgeo> As long as no alternate DNS root starts becoming very popular, Java package names will be unique
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03:28:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: how much would you pay for a hi tld
03:28:55 <shachaf> the possibilities are endless
03:30:03 <Sgeo> Whatever bitcoin's possibilties and failings, I think something along the lines of namecoin is possibly a good idea
03:30:07 <quintopia> you could get .hi.us already if hawaii likes you enough
03:45:41 <Bike> Are there any esolangs based on the immune system?
03:48:56 <Fiora> Bike: hmm. so like. you'd have some super simple esolang like a BF-like thing, except the purpose of the langage is to print characters in that lanugage ... and maybe like, the "execution" of your code is a systematic search for an input program that generates your code
03:49:00 <Fiora> and that input program is the output of your code?
03:49:17 <Fiora> (vaguely similar to the immune system "massive exhaustive search for a thing that binds to the pathogen" thing)
03:49:23 <Bike> that sounds almost too direct
03:49:57 <Bike> I found out a guy who got a Nobel for immunology work had some developmental brain theories so now i'm thinking about things.
03:50:20 <Bike> Unfortunately the immune system is really fucking complicated and more importantly I don't understand it.
03:51:29 <Bike> The font the Nobel people use for their PDFs is terrible. Somebody should make the stop.
03:52:22 <Bike> "Though both sciences still face exasperating problems, this lecture attempts to establish an analogy between linguistics and immunology, between the descriptions of language and of the immune system."
03:52:42 <shachaf> linguists more like evil people with no souls
03:52:59 <Bike> apparently the term "immune response" is actually taken from linguistics.
03:53:15 <shachaf> does that mean "it was in a language"
03:53:35 <Bike> I'm guessing stimulus/response terminology.
03:53:56 <Fiora> input: bf joust program
03:54:01 <Fiora> output: bf joust program that always beats it
03:54:19 <Bike> That's probably uncomputable.
03:54:36 <Bike> well, i know shit about bfjoust.
03:54:52 <Bike> Do you have something you'd like to share with the class?
03:55:31 <shachaf> THAT DES NOT COMPUTE -- Lost in Space robot, on linguists
03:56:44 <Bike> "Let me draw attention to the fact that this number of lymphocytes in the immune system is at least one order of magnitude larger than the number of neurons in the nervous system." neuroscience more like pointlessology
03:58:56 <Fiora> I guess you could say it's so big
03:58:58 <Fiora> that it makes you nervous?
03:59:21 * Bike makes gesture of mediocrity
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05:48:20 <coppro> elliott: have you idris
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06:53:02 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
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07:27:38 <fizzie> Nrrrr, I've been mentioned during the night.
07:28:21 <fizzie> Oh, right, EET -> EEST.
07:28:29 <shachaf> I was just complaining about your time zone.
07:28:35 <shachaf> Very irritating. Can you get it renamed?
07:28:41 <fizzie> Yes, that's very understandable.
07:29:03 <fizzie> I think you need to complain to the head guy of Eastern Europe. president@eastern.eu?
07:29:46 <shachaf> I thought they had a king.
07:30:27 <fizzie> Maybe they've got both.
07:30:59 <shachaf> What does the king of Finland think about that, hmm?
07:31:52 <fizzie> You might Cc: emperor@central.eu too, because CET changed to the equally stupid CEST; as well as tyrant@western.eu for WET -> WEST. (You could write a postscript about WET and WEST being innately silly too.)
07:32:37 <fizzie> ("What's your time zone?" "It's wet.")
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12:03:59 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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13:16:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: attn. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9
13:16:40 <elliott> coppro: i have used idris briefly
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13:37:15 <Jafet> You just need to come up with a language more trivial than brainfuck
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13:44:05 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-repayment_mortgage
13:45:17 <Jafet> “Gold pour – an illustration of literal cash "flow".”
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14:04:54 <Vorpal> <Jafet> “Gold pour – an illustration of literal cash "flow".” <-- what a terrible pun
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14:28:21 <Jafet> Don't do that, they make a snickering sound.
14:30:17 <hagb4rd> http://www.adamatomic.com/canabalt/mega/
14:30:26 <hagb4rd> THAT's a cool game..so classy!
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14:34:59 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, I only attacks Jabberwocks
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14:42:28 * impomatic prints off a table of odd and even numbers for use in the office...
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15:01:49 <mroman_> because it's too hard to check if a number is even
15:01:55 <mroman_> unless it is given in binary
15:02:04 <mroman_> it which case it's still pretty hard but much easier.
15:03:40 <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:05:57 <mroman_> on a computer I usually just do if((~(x & (INT_MAX >> 31))+1)==0) printf("it's even")
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15:07:27 <mroman_> that or ((~(a & (INT_MAX >> 31))+1)*-1+1)%2
15:07:51 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:07:55 <HackEgo> 1026) <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed lan
15:11:10 <zzo38> That is the kind of things in a dream that it might be.
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15:13:37 <zzo38> As well as call/cc you might also try the other variant which I called "lem/cc"; I have proven that it works not only in logic but also in programming
15:14:40 <zzo38> Do you have the dream where you are mainly observing the dream rather than acting the dream?
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15:15:53 <kmc> not lately
15:15:56 <kmc> what's the type of lem/cc?
15:17:08 <zzo38> In Haskell it is: Cont r (Either a (a -> Cont r b))
15:18:10 <kmc> `delquote 1026
15:18:15 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (because it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed
15:18:29 <kmc> `addquote <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:18:33 <HackEgo> 1026) <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:19:19 <elliott> i don't get it, what changed
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15:23:35 <olsner> he removed a "because"
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15:28:03 <olsner> technically I think we have to delete the new quote, then you can say your modified sentence and elliott can quote that
15:29:10 <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
15:29:17 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:29:33 <kmc> except now i'm the liar because it wasn't "just now" anymore!!!
15:30:04 <elliott> kmc: imo removing the "because" loses something
15:30:19 <elliott> how about we go back in time
15:30:25 <elliott> and fix the irc rfc to allow more chars
15:30:41 <elliott> shorten hackego's username to c and make it a single-digit-number quote
15:30:43 <elliott> would that be enough chars
15:32:21 <olsner> or make hackego split lines that are too long?
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16:03:09 <Sgeo> Is putting large chunks of butter on my bagels a bad idea?
16:04:04 <Taneb> THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL
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16:04:20 <Taneb> I got crushed by the butter
16:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, yeah with your diet you're at serious risk of coronary disease
16:05:25 * Sgeo cannot tell if Phantom_Hoover is serious or joking
16:06:57 <Sgeo> But I have been gaining quite a bit lately, if I'm not careful I could end up... with... too much weight... this is a bizarre concept for me
16:07:25 <Sgeo> But I mean butter is fatty, right? Is it a healthy kind of fat or an unhealthy fat?
16:08:25 <Taneb> Unhealthy, I think
16:08:36 <Sgeo> I'm seeing a lot of natural BS sites promoting butter as healthy
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16:11:15 <kmc> i'm still not sold on this idea that weight gain / loss depends so much on what /particular/ kind of fat / sugar / etc. you eat
16:11:44 <Taneb> kmc, it's blood congestion rather than weight gain that the saturated/unsaturated thing is about
16:11:47 <kmc> i'm no expert but in my end user capacity, i think that's a second order effect
16:11:54 <Bike> "MONGOLIA'S MEGA-FISH IN FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL" just fyi, cablegate stuff from 'unimportant' countries is p. great
16:11:58 <kmc> well, i thought Sgeo was talking about weight
16:12:07 <Bike> "164-Foot Genghis Khan with Laser Eyes to Tower Over Niagara"
16:12:53 <kmc> [.. CSX ..]
16:13:13 <Bike> apparently during the soviet era stuff about genghis was repressed due to that whole "conquered russia" thing
16:14:09 <Bike> "Although the Mongolian-Kuwait bilateral trade relationship remains minuscule, mostly trade in falcons,"
16:14:19 <kmc> falconcoins
16:14:33 <Taneb> Mongolia and Kuwait
16:14:54 <Bike> "Mongolia With Kuwait Against Iraq; Bond of Falcons"
16:15:17 <Bike> wow apparently a mongolian falcon is around $7k to buy
16:15:43 <Sgeo> kmc, while trying to gain weight, I don't feel like having a heart attack from having the wrong kinds of fats floating around
16:17:37 <Sgeo> My dad suggests after some time I should get a lipid profile. Haven't heard of that before, but that sounds like it makes sense
16:19:28 <Sgeo> I ate teriyaki sirloin steak yesterday
16:19:39 <Sgeo> I think the sauce had more flavor than the steak
16:22:16 <doesthiswork> well the sauce is specifically designed to have flavor
16:22:35 <Sgeo> So why do people like steak so much then?
16:23:08 <Sgeo> They even tell me that getting steak well-done ruins it
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16:23:32 <Sgeo> (I had it medium-well last night)
16:26:43 <doesthiswork> I don't know, I like it meat in small chunks with the hell cooked out of them, because they've got a more fun texture that way
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16:30:51 <Sgeo> <insert old joke about boiling the hell out of water to get holy water here>
16:31:28 <nooodl> > "hell" `elem` ["uncooked","beef"]
16:32:54 <doesthiswork> if you've ever eaten uncooked beef that has sat out for too long then you'd know all about the hell in it
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16:35:14 <Taneb> Sgeo, people are weird about steak
16:35:35 <kmc> doesthiswork: you also get the fun texture if only the outside is burnt
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16:38:01 <AnotherTest> "Windows XP makes wireless networking with your computer easy and secure, so you can work where you want, when you want."
16:38:34 <kmc> when you cook sous vide steak, you get to keep all the juices and can put them on mashed potatoes, which makes them delicious
16:38:49 <kmc> which demonstrates that steak itself is not flavorless
16:38:54 <kmc> but yeah, plain steak is kind of sad
16:39:15 <AnotherTest> "Experience the ultimate in safety, security, and privacy"
16:39:23 <Sgeo> AnotherTest, are you watching XPTV?
16:39:36 <kmc> you need seasonings (garlic, salt, pepper) and sides (mashed potatoes, fried mushrooms, french fries, greens, etc)
16:39:51 <AnotherTest> Yes, there's this great show on "Registering components"
16:39:58 <kmc> but it's not really fair to claim that the steak is not doing anything
16:40:01 <AnotherTest> and then once in a while this black DOS screen pops up
16:40:02 <kmc> flavors are not linear additive
16:40:06 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aO0jumwHdg&list=PLBFD29B2364412ABA
16:40:10 <Sgeo> AnotherTest, ^
16:40:10 <kmc> flavors enhance each other
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16:40:28 <kmc> Sgeo: sous vide is a way of cooking meats that was popular first with gourmet chefs and now with hobbyists
16:41:20 <kmc> Sgeo: the goal of cooking a steak is to raise the interior to only about 135°F; traditionally this is done by grilling or frying at a much higher temperature, but then you need to be really careful about the time to make sure you don't over-cook it
16:41:53 <kmc> to cook a steak sous vide, you vacuum-seal it in a plastic bag and then put that in a water bath at 135°F or whatever, for an hour or more
16:42:08 <kmc> the whole thing reaches that temperature and therefore reaches exactly the level of done-ness you want
16:42:14 <Taneb> kmc, that sounds science-y
16:42:18 <kmc> then you quickly fry it to get the crunchy outside texture
16:42:20 <kmc> yeah it's great
16:42:30 <kmc> i do it with a crock pot, a temperature sensor, and an arduino
16:42:39 <kmc> there are lots of DIY sous vide projects online that you can read about
16:43:12 <kmc> some other dishes involve cooking for 48+ hours this way
16:43:41 <kmc> apparently you can also cook cheap steak this way and make it delicious, because if it's in long enough, the tough stringy connective tissue starts to gelatenize
16:46:40 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
16:48:30 <pikhq_> I'm not entirely sure why steak has quite the reputation it does... Its flavor is really fairly subtle.
16:48:40 <kmc> which reputation is that?
16:48:55 -!- conehead has joined.
16:49:08 <pikhq_> kmc: The everyman kinda-expensive food that people really like?
16:49:36 <kmc> it's a little strange
16:50:40 <pikhq_> I mean, I like it, but it's kinda one of those more... delicate things. Y'know?
16:51:24 <pikhq_> Oh, who am I kidding, most people probably just slather steak sauce on it. And then it tastes rather different. :P
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16:55:43 <doesthiswork> why are there so many people in the channel that never talk?
16:55:49 <Sgeo> Why is it called steak sauce? Does it not taste good on other kinds of meat? Or on bread, or lettuce?
16:56:16 <mroman_> doesthiswork: Because I can't talk anything smart :)
16:56:34 <pikhq_> Though it's *essentially* UK "brown sauce".
16:56:45 <Taneb> doesthiswork, because we are funny to watch, perhaps
16:56:48 <mroman_> and americans can't make sauce .
16:56:55 <doesthiswork> mroman_: I don't see these guy talk anything smart
16:57:10 <Taneb> I prefer pepper sauce to brown sauce
16:57:12 <mroman_> Isn't guys used for gals too?
16:57:32 <kmc> doesthiswork: most channels have that
16:57:33 <mroman_> At least on television a bunch of girls usually address each other also with "hey guys"
16:57:47 <kmc> Sgeo: i used to put it on lots of things besides steak
16:57:52 <kmc> names are arbitrary
16:58:06 <kmc> yes I think "guys" is becoming gender-neutral
16:58:15 <mroman_> but I'm assuming guy still means male.
16:58:18 <kmc> and to some extent "dude" as well
16:58:29 <mroman_> but guys is usaly gender-neutral.
16:58:33 <elliott> kmc: i don't really think that's true
16:58:36 <kmc> but i'm still somewhat careful about it
16:58:57 <kmc> English needs better pronouns
16:59:06 <kmc> i use "they" as a gender-neutral third-person singular
16:59:15 <kmc> and i also use "y'all" as a second person plural
16:59:32 <kmc> even though i'm not from the south and don't have a southern accent
16:59:48 <mroman_> As long as you dont use "yo s*"
16:59:57 <kmc> there are some strange ones, like "yinz"
17:00:04 <kmc> (pittsburgh area)
17:00:15 <Fiora> the "guys being gender neutral" thing I think is mainly because "male is the default gender" so
17:00:32 <kmc> yeah, this is a reason to be careful
17:01:11 <Fiora> though whenever I think of replacements for that one I imagine someone in like, a southern drawl going "hey ya'llllll"
17:01:21 <doesthiswork> Guys is male by default but when the facts clearly show that not everyone is male it temporarily stretches to be inclusive
17:02:06 <elliott> that doesn't really make any sense
17:02:15 <kmc> it's bad that language is so gendered and it's not clear in each individual case whether it's better to invent new non-gendered forms or to try and ignore the gendered connotations in hopes that they go away
17:02:22 <kmc> i don't think there's an obvious answer to that
17:02:37 <kmc> both approaches can be harmful
17:03:22 <Sgeo> I've been in online places that invent new forms, and in online places that are explicit about the gendered forms being non-gendered by default
17:03:44 <kmc> you can't really change the meaning of words by fiat like that
17:03:49 <doesthiswork> The natural solution seems to be to use the nearest form that is unpolluted by the connotations you dislike.
17:03:52 <elliott> you can't just magically say something doesn't have gendered connotations by stating so...
17:03:57 <kmc> that's a big fallacy of programmers
17:04:01 <kmc> (and maybe lawyers?)
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17:04:08 <kmc> because it works in those specialized domains
17:04:11 <Sgeo> >.> they were both law-y games
17:04:14 <kmc> well then.
17:04:29 <kmc> i have signed contracts that have clauses like "In this document, the word "he" shall refer to blah blah"
17:04:40 <kmc> and "The word "or" shall mean "either/or""
17:04:42 <kmc> and crap like that
17:04:50 <elliott> then we would be in a magical fantasy land where there would be no point to ahve words with gendered connotations anyway
17:04:58 <Fiora> yeah, it's like the whole thing with "well <racist term> isn't actually racist, it really means <not racist thing>, as if like, saying so magically removes all the meaning it's gathered after 200 years
17:05:14 <Bike> something something hofstadter
17:05:30 <elliott> probably everything we are saying is part of some quote in a parenthical someone started in 2004
17:05:31 <kmc> or the sort of opposite "well when I said it I didn't *mean* it in a racist way so it's fine"
17:05:36 <elliott> the longest IRC message ever
17:05:46 <Bike> doesthiswork: quite
17:05:56 <elliott> no it's the other way around
17:06:12 <Fiora> universe collapsing in 5, 4, 3 ...
17:06:25 <elliott> finally i can stop wasting time on irc
17:06:55 <Fiora> elliott: I've kind of inadvertantly/subconsciously defaulted to the "hey guys" thing myself but when I do it consciously I just try to pick better phrases
17:06:58 <Fiora> like "hi everyone"
17:07:10 <kmc> i say "y'all" and i'm not ashamed of it
17:07:14 <kmc> i didn't grow up saying it though
17:07:20 <Fiora> it's like, there's enough options that I don't feel like it has to be awkward or hard
17:07:21 <kmc> i'm from the midwest, we have the "neutral" american accent
17:07:33 <Sgeo> I've been in a chatroom that auto-kicked when someone says "y'all"
17:07:37 <kmc> except for certain words that will get you mocked on the coasts
17:07:41 <kmc> like using "pop" for soda
17:07:53 <Fiora> I feel ridiculous trying to say y'all XD
17:08:01 <Fiora> because I am like so not stereotypically southerner or midwestern in the slightest
17:08:03 <kmc> elliott: "Good morning sinners!"
17:08:11 <kmc> doesthiswork: how do you mean
17:08:12 <Bike> i like "peeps"
17:08:22 <Sgeo> "Good morning siners!"
17:08:38 <kmc> good morning signers
17:08:59 <doesthiswork> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift
17:09:00 <Sgeo> good morning singers
17:09:08 <Bike> i'm pretty nervous about language stuff in general since i realized how closely tied it is to racism and national suppression >_>
17:09:29 <Sgeo> (I read your good morning signers as singers at first, and wanted to do the firey version)
17:11:59 <elliott> just say "good morning not-bikes"
17:12:05 <elliott> that will say hi to everyone who matters
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17:24:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> and i also use "y'all" as a second person plural
17:25:16 <Taneb> Wasn't "you" originally plural exclusively?
17:25:42 <Bike> isn't vosotros only used in spain and argentina/
17:25:57 <Taneb> Bike, and Saudi Arabia, evidently
17:26:09 <Bike> hm, lots of castilian speakers there
17:26:40 <Taneb> In latin, the plural is "vos" and the singular is "tu"
17:26:56 <Taneb> It's similar in French, I believe, but I seem to recall that "vous" can be plural or formal
17:26:56 <Bike> yeah, my spanish class mentioned the v's but didn't teach us them since it was central america oriented.
17:27:06 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-V_distinction
17:27:48 <Koen_> honestly when using "vous" as formal singular I never know whether I should write all the adjectives and stuff in singular or plural
17:28:53 <Taneb> So, between "thou", "you", "y'all", and "all y'all", English has access to four different numbers of you
17:29:45 <Koen_> when was the last time you used thou?
17:30:22 <Koen_> OHGOD I DIDN'T IMAGINE YOU WOULD BE SO OLD
17:30:46 <Taneb> Koen_, I used "thou" this afternoon
17:30:48 <doesthiswork> all ya'll exists because y'all tends to be used for situations where prototypically the number of people are indeterminate.
17:31:04 <doesthiswork> so all ya'll means "each and every one of you"
17:31:19 <Koen_> Taneb: were you courting a lady
17:31:33 <Taneb> Koen_, as it happens, yes
17:31:41 <ThatOtherPerson> Koen_: in that case, the last time I used "thou" was about six words ago.
17:31:44 <Koen_> you're so transparent
17:32:35 <Taneb> Not as transparent as this guy: http://25.media.tumblr.com/3456e6adde7f9c89c55dc5afabf269f5/tumblr_ml7amfP5Bt1r3u0x4o4_500.png
17:32:37 <Koen_> ThatOtherPerson: I meant with people who don't discuss the semantics of each and every one of the languages they know on a regular basis
17:33:00 <Taneb> Koen_, that also rules me out
17:33:36 <Taneb> I am somewhat less transparent
17:33:42 <Koen_> Taneb: were you courting Fiora?
17:33:49 <Taneb> Koen_, no, I was not
17:33:55 <Taneb> I believe Fiora was in a different country
17:34:16 <Koen_> Taneb: were you courting Lymia?
17:34:27 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure Lymia was in a different country again
17:34:30 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom_Hoover: I believe we are discussing ladies and how one courts them, if ever.
17:34:47 <elliott> Koen_: are you just going to name everyone female in the channel & why
17:34:54 <Taneb> The person whom I was courting I do not believe frequents this channel, or indeed IRC
17:35:00 <Koen_> I believe I just did elliott
17:35:15 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, not quite
17:35:19 <Taneb> She goes on TVTropes a lot
17:35:42 <Koen_> Taneb: do you discuss the semantics of each and every one of the languages you know on a regular basis with every lady that you have met so far?
17:36:05 <Taneb> Koen_, no, only the ones who were interested in this sort of thing
17:36:42 <Koen_> so what's your standard courting move?
17:36:56 <Koen_> I'm pretty convinced discussion the semantics of sex should work pretty well
17:37:10 <Taneb> We talked about vowel mergers
17:37:22 <Taneb> For instance the cot-caught merger
17:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> still not at all clear on how this came up in the first place
17:37:30 <Koen_> if they're scientific they'll feel a deep need to perform the experiment
17:37:37 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'm being interrogated on my love life
17:37:43 <Taneb> In the context of linguistics
17:37:52 <Koen_> hey! you're the one who brought it to my attention!
17:38:28 <Taneb> I'm still surprised I actually have a love life
17:38:50 <Koen_> besides I've just been deemed admissible to a school where apparently everyone is even more of a geek than I am and that includes the suprisingly high number of girls
17:39:11 <elliott> oh jesus is this still about the 42.fr thing
17:39:20 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora: has a guy ever discussed the semantics of a language with you? Other than on IRC, I mean.
17:39:32 <Taneb> Koen_, being a geek is surprisingly gender-neutral
17:39:38 <Taneb> Most of my friends who are geeks are female
17:39:47 <Taneb> And most of my friends who are female are geeks, as it happens
17:40:32 * Gregor bites the head off of a chicken.
17:40:40 <mnoqy> i agree with Gregor
17:40:42 <Bike> i have approximately 0 friends fuck you won the contest oh yeah
17:40:54 <mnoqy> i agree with Bike too
17:40:55 <Taneb> mnoqy, you seem different somehow
17:41:00 <Taneb> Have you had a haircut?
17:41:24 <mnoqy> i can't remember the last time i had one of those. wait i think i do -vaguely-
17:41:26 <ThatOtherPerson> Gregor: huh, what do feathers mixed with blood and eyes and muscle and bones and various organs taste like?
17:41:33 <kmc> "geek" is a pretty broad category at this point
17:41:42 <Gregor> ThatOtherPerson: Just like chicken.
17:42:27 <Taneb> kmc, I'm using it in the sense of "willing to be openly enthusiastic of things they like, especially things such as super-hero movies"
17:42:29 <kmc> geek communities vary widley in terms of gender ratio, and in terms of how they treat women
17:42:58 <Gregor> I don't bite the head off of roosters.
17:43:25 <kmc> one thing I've learned (from talking to the people who work on this problem) is that if your local language user group meetup is 3% women and you want it to be 30% women, there are some fairly concrete steps you can take to make this happen fairly quickly
17:43:37 <Koen_> mnoqy: are you one of those guys to whom the hairdresser says "see you next year" after a haircut?
17:44:06 <mnoqy> i went off of hairdressers cold-turkey
17:44:22 <Phantom_Hoover> realisation of the day: my keyboard's chording is too shitty to play girp
17:44:26 <Bike> monqy just occasionally burns off his hair
17:45:06 <kmc> Bike: well the Boston Python group had intro and intermediate classes for "women and their friends", producing a group which is at least 50% women (and ensuring that the men who show up know someone rather than being random creepers)
17:45:27 <kmc> and this had an immediate effect on the ratio at the gender-neutral events
17:45:46 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that sucks
17:46:06 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
17:46:14 <Bike> going to freshman physics and CS classes and there being a 9/1 ratio is still creepy as hell
17:46:17 <Taneb> It's a climbing sim from the maker of QWOP
17:46:41 <Taneb> My further maths class has a 10:0 male/female ration
17:46:43 <Bike> should be a dating sim imo
17:47:03 <Taneb> A male/female ration would be interesting
17:47:23 <kmc> http://www.slideshare.net/kellan/more-women-in-engineering-something-that-actually-worked-14630106
17:47:28 <Taneb> And perhaps illegal
17:47:30 <kmc> this is about Etsy and Hacker School
17:47:59 <Taneb> (my less far maths class I think is about 4:1)
17:48:16 <Taneb> (my latin class is 1:4)
17:48:32 <kmc> last week I helped run http://wellesley.openhatch.org/
17:48:34 <Taneb> (except someone hasn't turned up since Christmas so it's really (1:3)
17:49:07 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I have many keyboards!
17:49:11 <Bike> "something that ACTUALLY WORKED" i'm sorry kmc but i have to laugh at this subtitle
17:50:17 <Bike> http://image.slidesharecdn.com/firstroundctosummit-121008002521-phpapp02/95/slide-19-728.jpg?1360178044 i still find it hard to believe that they make you actually write out code. i'm so naive
17:50:49 <Bike> http://image.slidesharecdn.com/firstroundctosummit-121008002521-phpapp02/95/slide-26-728.jpg?1360178044 nice
17:50:50 <kmc> writing code out on paper sucks ass
17:51:11 <Bike> yeah i did that a lot in high school
17:51:26 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: are those vim commands
17:51:36 <kmc> Bike: yeah, I took AP CS, we had to write out C++ code by hand
17:51:42 <kmc> that's how I finally learned how to draw the & character
17:51:43 <kmc> it's not easy!
17:52:12 <Taneb> qwop I've never got the hang of
17:52:20 <Taneb> girp I'm almost competent at
17:52:33 <Bike> i always used to draw & backwards >_>
17:52:39 <mnoqy> & is cool i write it all the time
17:53:08 <Bike> "SUBJECT: WARNING: TAINTED LOCAL VODKA KILLS 11 IN MONGOLIA " these cables are seriously great
17:53:32 <Bike> you some kinda classicist, boy
17:53:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: -`: not found
17:54:03 <elliott> i "exclude" the middle by not putting any space between the letters
17:55:29 <kmc> Bike: more recently I've done coding interviews with an actual computer
17:55:49 <kmc> often those are only partly about the code, and partly about watching how someone works
17:55:55 <kmc> how easily they can look up docs, grep a codebase
17:55:59 <kmc> judging them by their choice of editor
17:56:25 <kmc> and yeah, that list of 4 rules from Hacker School is good
17:56:53 <elliott> my editor habits are weird
17:56:54 <kmc> the even worse form of (2) that I hear often is "You do know that $foo, right?"
17:57:01 <elliott> i switch between emacs and vim constantly
17:57:28 <Bike> i'm always just like, ugh, can't you talk about this without being so elitist
17:57:49 <elliott> i say that kind of thing impulsively a lot and then feel guilty for being condescending
17:58:00 <Bike> i usually have emacs on but i use vi to edit files quickly because i'm too dumb to work out emacsclient. i figure knowing both decently isn't so bad, anyway
17:58:01 <Taneb> elliott, you should disappear for a bit then go to an interview done by kmc under a false name
17:58:07 <elliott> (successfully made this issue about myself)
17:58:43 <kmc> yeah I complain publicly about how people communicate as a way to commit to communicating better myself
17:58:47 <kmc> that's maybe half of it
17:58:52 <kmc> the other half is that i like complaining
17:58:55 <Taneb> I never learnt vim, and am barely competent at emacs
17:59:20 <Bike> basically you just do C-S-c M-<up> M-x dwim
17:59:42 <olsner> is that how you exit emacs?
18:00:12 <Bike> no, you need mount separate
18:01:08 <elliott> [joke comparing emacs to an operating system] [sitcom laugh track]
18:01:17 <elliott> [joke about emacs lacking an editor] [sitcom laugh track]
18:01:42 <Taneb> Man, I want a sitcom laugh track
18:02:04 <mnoqy> probably pretty easy to find
18:02:13 <Bike> "The Soviet Hangover: Alcoholism Threatens Mongolia's Progress"
18:02:16 <mnoqy> just have to "know" where to "look"
18:05:04 <Taneb> Everyone would hate me
18:05:11 <mnoqy> it would be awful :☺)
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18:18:19 <Fiora> ThatOtherPerson: semantics of language...? I.. I don't know... probably someone has rambled about that at some point...
18:18:26 -!- nooodl has joined.
18:18:40 <Fiora> I have a really bad memory, I can't really remember many details beyond a week or two ago...
18:20:03 <Fiora> I'd probably only remember it if it was a more emotional moment (like if it was frustrating or painful or something...)
18:20:15 <Bike> babe are you a kalmyk because *rambles about altaic theory for twenty minutes*
18:21:06 <Bike> all the ladies love historical linguistics
18:23:08 <Bike> the kalmyk republic is part of western russia. the kalmyk people who make up about half of it are mongolic and speak a mongolian language called kalmyk.
18:23:11 <Fiora> I guess I couuuld argue that someone telling me about how 'cunt' isn't a gendered insult is 'telling me about the semantics of language'
18:23:15 <Bike> this is "fiora-relevant" because it's a chess place.
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18:24:03 <Bike> The Altaic theory is an idea that a couple asian language groups like Turkic, Mongolic, and Japonic are all actually part of a larger grouping called Altaic. It's pretty non-mainstream.
18:24:52 <kmc> Fiora: ;_;
18:25:27 <Bike> Fiora: i'm trying to imagine a pickup line for this
18:26:30 <Bike> it's not working
18:26:53 <Bike> i just imagine a guy in a suit and fedora walking up to a seat at the bar, and opening his mouth, and then cockroaches pour out
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18:31:08 <Fiora> Bike: I am like dying laughing at that metaphor
18:31:22 <Bike> metap- oh, right, yeah
18:32:25 <Bike> fact: whenever i try to picture a stereotypical bar scene, i always think of that one scene from naked lunch
18:35:46 <Bike> the cronenberg film adapted from the burroughs book
18:36:04 <Bike> guy walks up to a bar and the mugwump, a weird looking alien creature starts advising him about a gay cruise
18:36:26 <mnoqy> i misread that as gay cuisine. like, what's that.
18:37:54 <Bike> I can't find the bar scene so have some Zappa instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MsO1FLYee8
18:39:48 <pikhq_> mnoqy: Gay cuisine is nothing but spotted dick.
18:40:02 <mnoqy> sorry you're a bit late to the party
18:40:07 <Fiora> Bike: you also didn't get to see the part of that conversation where the guy was arguing about how complaining about someone "PMSing" isn't at all sexist <.<
18:40:23 <Bike> wait is this the ##asm thing
18:40:45 <mnoqy> ##asm sounds like hell
18:40:45 <Bike> yeah i think i remember that, unfortunately
18:41:06 <Bike> i couldn't tell you, i got banned, 'cos i'm a rebel. ain't be tamed
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18:41:34 <elliott> got banned for using AT&T syntax
18:41:41 <kmc> yeah I lasted like an hour there
18:41:55 <Fiora> it was actually fine most of the time? like it was better than ##c even
18:41:59 <Bike> this also led me to learn that freenode doesn't count slurs as discriminatory or something
18:42:03 <Fiora> despite not really having a good mod like ##c does
18:42:03 <kmc> "better than ##c"
18:42:08 <Bike> whatever, fuck the police
18:42:15 <Fiora> (though she's mostly pretty hands off)
18:42:24 <Bike> Fiora: you sure it wasn't just that guy whose name started with X who was good?
18:42:36 <ais523> is ##asm about asm in general, or a particular asm in particular?
18:42:36 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:42:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 18h 8m 55s ago: You seem to have missed User:EzraFrier
18:42:42 <Fiora> okay maybe -_- but like there were lots of people who asked questions and talked about things and people even like, asked me for help in PM
18:42:44 <mnoqy> what does ##asm think of TERSE
18:42:44 <Bike> ais523: in general
18:42:48 <Bike> Fiora: oh, huh
18:42:49 <pikhq_> If I had to guess it'd be about x86 assembly.
18:43:00 <Fiora> and I got a grand total of just two creepy people the whole time, that's a new record
18:43:03 <Bike> no, it's general, even says so in the topic, and people asked about ARM &c.
18:43:14 <kmc> i spent like a week in ##c helping beginners, and then one day I answered a question wrong and they were like STFU YOU FUCKING MORON GET OUT
18:43:27 <Bike> But I don't really want to stick around watching people get called "PMSing cunts"
18:43:27 <kmc> it was about variable length arrays "who even uses those"
18:43:29 * pikhq_ does not envy women on the internet.
18:43:44 <Fiora> kmc: it really seems to wildly depend on who's active in the channel
18:43:48 <ais523> !tell oerjan good catch, I indeed missed it
18:43:49 <elliott> does ##c actually have good ops
18:43:55 <pikhq_> Not on the stack, mind, but hey.
18:43:56 <Fiora> I rejoined it after having like, a 4 hour conversation with the moderator there
18:43:57 <elliott> because that seems to be at odds with ##c being the worst channel in the universe
18:44:05 <Fiora> who is kind of wonderful
18:44:06 <Fiora> and fun to talk with
18:44:09 <pikhq_> foo(char bar[static 4]) is quite nice.
18:44:13 <Fiora> well, one of the moderators,I don't know if there's others
18:44:23 <ais523> @tell oerjan good catch, I indeed missed it
18:44:26 <pikhq_> Or foo(size_t x, char bar[x])
18:44:39 <ais523> hmm… the most annoying thing about rebinding caps lock
18:44:45 <ais523> is that in the rare cases you turn it on by mistake
18:44:50 <ais523> it takes a while to remember how to turn it off
18:45:03 <ais523> (I rebound the caps lock key to compose, and the caps lock command to shift+shift)
18:45:29 <mnoqy> is caps lock ever useful
18:45:37 <pikhq_> It makes a great control.
18:45:40 <ais523> when you're typing disclaimers
18:45:49 <pikhq_> I've got l-win as compose.
18:45:59 <ais523> pikhq_: huh? super is a really useful key
18:46:04 <kmc> pikhq_: did you see the linux exploit that happened because someone used a VLA on the stack
18:46:09 <kmc> and kernel stacks are only 8kB
18:46:19 <ais523> this laptop doesn't have an r-win
18:46:21 <mnoqy> i use the silly menu key as compose. no R-win…
18:46:23 <kmc> and by "someone" i mean econet.ko
18:46:29 <pikhq_> kmc: No, but I can imagine. :)
18:46:30 <Fiora> oh gosh. a VLA in the kernel?
18:46:31 <ais523> mnoqy: the menu key is actually useful
18:46:59 <pikhq_> Fiora: VLAs in general are quite nice. The problem is, *on the stack* they are an attack waiting to happen.
18:47:05 <ais523> mnoqy: it's probably the fastest way to correct typos when you can't remember what the correct spelling is
18:47:13 <kmc> Fiora: Linux driver for Econet, a network protocol used by British home computers from the 80's
18:47:18 <kmc> a driver that /nobody/ uses anymore
18:47:29 <mnoqy> ais523: good point except i dont use editors with that feature =/
18:47:29 <pikhq_> But when passed as arguments they make array handling somewhat nicer.
18:47:32 <kmc> since nobody uses it, it's full of bugs
18:47:40 <kmc> but until recently, it was part of the kernel and built by most distros
18:47:51 <kmc> and it would even auto-load if unprivileged userspace tried to create an Econet socket!
18:47:52 <mnoqy> for some reason my e-mail composition spell check doesnt work
18:47:54 <Fiora> pikhq_: um, VLAs can be not on the stack?
18:48:18 <pikhq_> Fiora: Yes. void foo(size_t x, char bar[x])
18:48:42 <pikhq_> Or void foo(size_t x, size_t y, char bar[x][y])
18:48:47 <mnoqy> that's pretty cute
18:48:56 <kmc> Fiora: http://pastebin.com/88EPCd2q a fun exploit for one bug in econet
18:49:07 <Fiora> oh, isn't that just the same as a pointer...?
18:49:08 <kmc> well it actually exploits 3 bugs
18:49:10 <Fiora> or is there some different
18:49:17 <kmc> the most interesting one is not in econet
18:49:21 <pikhq_> Fiora: No, it's actually an array. Straight-up a full array.
18:49:37 <pikhq_> Fiora: As opposed to void foo(char bar[4]), which is just a pointer.
18:49:46 <pikhq_> And void foo(char bar[static 4]) is also an array.
18:49:55 <Fiora> @_@ I will never quite get C
18:50:12 <pikhq_> For what it's worth, this is a fairly obscure bit of C.
18:50:40 <kmc> super obscure I'd say
18:50:45 <pikhq_> Added in C99, and many people still avoid C99 features like the plague.
18:50:55 <kmc> i like C99 :<
18:51:08 <pikhq_> But some people think they should still support MSVC.
18:51:13 <mnoqy> c99 is better than that other standard
18:51:18 <pikhq_> (the IE6 of compilers)
18:53:15 <Fiora> kmc: geez I don't understand 90% of that but that's amazing
18:53:27 <kmc> the exploit? i can go into it
18:53:42 <Fiora> oh, you can? um, I'd love to listen if you want to
18:53:46 <kmc> also there's a walkthrough in my talk about kernel exploits: http://ugcs.net/~keegan/talks/kernel-exploit/talk.pdf
18:54:13 <kmc> maybe look through that first, and i can answer questions
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18:55:48 <ais523> kmc: the only exploit on a stack-VLA is allocating more data than actually fits on the stack, right?
18:56:02 <kmc> that's the main one anyway
18:56:04 <Fiora> oh kmc so like before I touch this, someone had an interesting question in ##c-unregistered that was like. actually really interesting
18:56:04 <ThatOtherPerson> Someone tell me an esolang that will take ~1-2 hours to implement
18:56:10 <ais523> that usually causes a segfault in userspace, but the kernel doesn't have that escape valve
18:56:23 <Fiora> they're porting Jedi Academy to Linux from the open source code, and they were wondering what a particular code snippet did
18:56:34 <Fiora> and now I realize like. why so many programs are hard to port...
18:56:39 <mnoqy> ThatOtherPerson: Eodermdrome
18:56:42 <Fiora> it had a NULL pointer check that looked like this:
18:56:49 <Fiora> if((int)psString > 0)
18:56:58 <kmc> ais523: well in Linux userspace anyway, the stack is usually an auto-growing mapping
18:57:14 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: write a brainfuck interpreter in 60 different programming languages
18:57:18 <ais523> kmc: yes but it's possible to mmap something next to the stack guard page
18:57:21 <ais523> and then it can't grow any more
18:57:29 <kmc> and then it will fault
18:57:30 <Fiora> and of course that code works wonderfully...
18:57:33 <Fiora> ... on windows 32-bit ...
18:57:36 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: I don't even know 60 different programming languages :/
18:57:39 <Fiora> ... without /LARGEADDRESSAWARE... -_-
18:57:48 <ais523> Fiora: it works quite neatly on 64-bit, too
18:58:01 <ais523> because the addresses that map to negative as a signed int are all reserved by the kernel, IIRC
18:58:05 <ais523> that's physical memory
18:58:15 <Fiora> it'd work if it was (intptr_t)ptr on 64-bit, I think?
18:58:16 <olsner> ais523: also, int may still be 32-bit
18:58:16 <ais523> does the kernel potentially map stuff into virtual memory with negative addresses?
18:58:17 <kmc> ais523: on a lot of 64-bit architectures, int is smaller than void*
18:58:20 <kmc> such as amd64
18:58:39 <Fiora> but (int) might be too small
18:58:58 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: just looking through mine, Suffolk is unimplemented but shouldn't take too long to implement
18:59:01 <kmc> why do people even write that, why not if (psString)
18:59:02 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Suffolk
18:59:05 <kmc> also lol hungarian notation
18:59:09 <Fiora> but it breaks on linux 32-bit because linux uses the bottom 3GB for userspace, right?
18:59:19 * Fiora is going by the chart in your pdf <.<
18:59:23 <kmc> for people who love manifest types but hate typechecking
18:59:32 <kmc> Fiora: it does (on i386 anyway)
18:59:33 <ThatOtherPerson> I once wrote a function that took a uint16_t[65536] when I was tired and not thinking
18:59:39 <kmc> so yeah, your stack will typically have a 'negative' address
18:59:43 <kmc> since it's at the top of the userspace 3GB
19:00:00 <kmc> (also you can build a kernel with a different split, or even one where userspace and kernel have different page tables)
19:00:08 <kmc> (but 3GB / 1GB is the default and nearly universal afaik)
19:00:32 <kmc> also, i386 programs running on an x86_64 kernel get a full 4GB
19:00:50 <Fiora> that explains why the code broke then, I guess
19:00:51 <ais523> actually, nowadays from the userspace point of view, things like the stack are in random locations
19:00:54 <ais523> to make exploits harder to write
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19:01:33 <ais523> anyway, the thing that confuses me, is why compare a pointer to 0 for less than/greater than?
19:01:44 <ais523> on most processors, it's exactly as efficient as the correct code that checks for equality
19:02:28 <Fiora> I have no idea ._.
19:02:33 <ais523> I guess on some microcontrollers I've worked on, testing to see if a number is negative is more efficient than testing to see if it's zero
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19:02:36 <kmc> people write bad code :/
19:02:36 <ais523> but not testing to see if a number is positive
19:02:46 <ais523> (testing for negative is testing a single bit, which is slightly easier than testing an entire byte)
19:02:59 <olsner> if it's not merely stupid, it might be checking for something special - could e.g. HANDLEs have the upper bit set?
19:03:31 <ais523> olsner: special pointer-like values on Windows tend to be odd
19:03:36 <kmc> also executable ASLR is almost useless on i386: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.devel/177905
19:03:38 <quintopia> ais523: don't most processors have a circuit that ands together every bit in the register to make zero-checking efficient
19:03:43 <kmc> only 8 bits of randomness
19:03:56 <ais523> because all legit int pointers on Windows are even
19:03:58 <kmc> I don't know if stack ASLR is more useful; probably, since the stack top doesn't have to be page aligned
19:04:03 <ais523> at least, that are used by the kernel
19:04:22 <ais523> quintopia: they do, and so did this one; however, it cost more words of program to tell the microcontroller to actually use them
19:06:06 <Fiora> kmc: ohhhhhhhh that's how the null pointer exploit trick works. putting the payload at 0 with mmap
19:06:15 <Fiora> is there some reason the OS... lets you do that? O_O
19:06:28 <Fiora> like why is mmap to 0 a thing
19:06:35 <kmc> it doesn't anymore
19:06:36 <olsner> the OS might've gotten confused and forgotten to prevent it
19:06:57 <kmc> Linux added sysctl vm.mmap_min_addr in like 2007
19:07:02 <kmc> but it still gets set to 0 sometimes
19:07:12 <Fiora> how do null pointer exploits like that work now?
19:07:15 <kmc> they don't
19:07:32 <kmc> but similar exploits that involve an invalid pointer that isn't NULL might work
19:07:33 <Fiora> but I remember there was a thing a little bit ago about a null pointer check being optimized improperly because of a thig
19:07:35 <Fiora> and that was an exploit?
19:08:15 <kmc> Fiora: I think that was not that recent, and would only work if mmap_min_addr is set to 0 or if the kernel is vulnerable to any of numerous mmap_min_addr bypasses that have been discovered throughout the year
19:08:34 <kmc> for a while if you installed Wine on Ubuntu, it would set mmap_min_addr = 0 globally
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19:08:45 <kmc> because, like, Win16 programs need to map stuff at zero?
19:08:47 <kmc> also dosemu
19:09:09 <kmc> http://blog.cr0.org/2009/06/bypassing-linux-null-pointer.html
19:10:12 <kmc> http://lxr.linux.no/linux+v2.6.30/fs/binfmt_elf.c#L976 sigh
19:10:57 <kmc> Linux developers value features like "can run SVr4 binaries on Linux" over security
19:11:02 <kmc> even if nobody ever does this ever
19:12:00 <olsner> it "might" be a good idea to make sure that even if the user program maps something at 0 it doesn't affect the kernel
19:12:03 <Bike> guh, who uses system v binaries at all
19:12:23 <kmc> olsner: that's hard to do though
19:12:48 <kmc> if you want userspace and kernel to have different page tables, that improves security greatly, but also greatly increases the overhead of a system call
19:12:56 <kmc> on x86 anyway
19:13:06 <kmc> because switching page tables involves a TLB flush
19:13:34 <kmc> some architectures have tagged TLBs that can hold onto entries from address spaces that are not currently in use
19:13:36 <Fiora> could they use VM instructions to handle that?
19:13:44 <Taneb> elliott, have you done any work on @ since you met me
19:13:44 <kmc> Fiora: yes! I heard of someone doing that
19:13:52 <kmc> don't have a link though :/
19:13:53 <Fiora> so like, userspace is a """VM"""
19:14:17 <Fiora> gosh that's. that's actually a pretty cool idea
19:14:21 <mnoqy> "sort of work on @"
19:14:21 <Fiora> if you find it poke me with it, that sounds really fun
19:14:23 <kmc> hm ARM has tagged TLBs, that's good
19:15:14 <olsner> I think x86 also has tagged TLBs nowadays
19:15:38 <kmc> it has the ability to set 'global' mappings that don't get flushed automatically
19:15:49 <kmc> i don't know of anything beyond that, setting aside VMX / SVM virtualization extensions
19:16:36 <Fiora> "Invalidates mappings in the translation lookaside buffers (TLBs) and paging-struc-ture caches based on the invalidation type specified in the first operand andprocessor context identifier (PCID) invalidate descriptor specified in the secondoperand."
19:16:44 <Fiora> is a processor context identifier related to this?
19:16:52 <Fiora> what is a processor context identifier -_-
19:16:58 <kmc> hm i don't know
19:17:05 <olsner> what I was thinking of was the ASID that you can set when you set the pointer to the page tables
19:17:34 <kmc> http://www.realworldtech.com/westmere/ talks about it
19:17:42 <kmc> so it does sound like a tagged tlb basically
19:17:44 <kmc> that's cool!
19:17:50 <kmc> i wonder if linux uses it
19:18:03 <kmc> Fiora: have you used http://livegrep.com
19:18:29 <Fiora> oooh, so it's a tagged TLB thing but aimed at VMs
19:18:37 <Fiora> INVPCID is a new instruction in um... I think haswell? I'm not sure
19:18:48 <Fiora> livegrep...? what does it do
19:18:56 <kmc> searches the linux kernel, really fucking fast
19:19:00 <kmc> with regexes
19:19:24 <Fiora> haswell has a lot of interesting stuff like that it seems, like it has smep too
19:19:33 <mnoqy> what flavor of regex is this
19:19:38 <Fiora> .... I don't know regexes though >_<
19:20:00 <kmc> http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B8%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B4%7D-%5B0-9a-fA-F%5D%7B12%7D
19:21:44 <Bike> nice 'n' readable url
19:22:14 <Koen_> I stopped reading at "linux", what did I miss
19:22:38 <elliott> saying anything of value maybe?
19:23:47 <Koen_> if I were a haskell person we'd have been three to type that command!
19:23:56 <kmc> wow elliott
19:24:14 <Taneb> > "thanks" ^. to sort
19:24:20 <elliott> how are you doing? very welliott
19:25:06 <lambdabot> (Conjoined p, Gettable f) => (s -> a) -> p a (f a) -> p s (f s)
19:25:08 <elliott> what's going on? not melliott
19:28:07 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
19:28:30 <Taneb> > ["thanks", "lens"] ^. to sort
19:28:37 <Taneb> > ["thanks", "lens"] ^. traverse . to sort
19:29:01 <elliott> that sounds like some ancient place that should be in ruins
19:30:43 <Bike> elliott: that's a mean thing to say about a place!
19:32:06 <kmc> itt: getting a stab
19:32:56 <kmc> mnoqy: it's RE2 regexes
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19:33:36 <elliott> kmc: you have no idea how tired i am of getting a stab jokes
19:33:40 <elliott> they're as bad as burrito jokes in #haskell
19:33:43 -!- copumpkin has joined.
19:35:21 <Bike> no monad. radio!
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19:52:37 <shachaf> mnoqy: mnoqy is a variant spelling of gnocchi
19:53:30 <Taneb> Is that the thing with the tomato and the toast
19:53:54 <Koen_> Taneb I think that's a pizza
19:54:42 <shachaf> gnocchi mnoqy gnocchi mnoqy
19:58:07 <mnoqy> bruschetta is good. never've had gnocchi woops.
19:58:27 <shachaf> gnocchi is not the same things as bruschetta mnoqy................................
19:58:38 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo you can't keep this nick unless you have some gnocchi
19:58:48 <mnoqy> that explains why i've had bruschetta but not gnocchi
19:59:08 <mnoqy> or explains how? it explains something.
19:59:33 <doesthiswork> what if we made shirts have irregular button spacing so that it was harder to miss-button them
19:59:39 <shachaf> but did you know the law that you're not allowed to mention bruschetta and gnocchi in the same sentence woops
19:59:58 <shachaf> it's an ancient italian law, now you're not allowed to go to italy ever
20:01:36 <mnoqy> thanks shachaf(???????????????????????)
20:01:59 <shachaf> oh no what's that thing inthe parentheses
20:03:30 <mnoqy> i dont understand why you say the thing you're saying
20:05:40 <Koen_> YEAH WHY DYOU EVEN BOTHER OPENING THAT MOUTH OF YOURS
20:06:01 <shachaf> wow mnoqy did you mean that
20:07:07 <mnoqy> i did not mean the thing that koen said
20:07:13 <mnoqy> pls do not put words in my mouth
20:07:37 <Koen_> well note that I wouldn't be able to put words in your mouth IF YOU KEPT IT SHUT
20:07:58 <Koen_> my apologies won't happen again
20:08:00 <shachaf> Koen_: you're being pretty rude and making this channel worse for everyone
20:08:16 <shachaf> Koen_: your apologies haven't even happened once, it's not likely that they'll happen again at this rate
20:08:51 <Koen_> maybe I'll add an extra coma and maybe even a pronoun
20:08:54 <Bike> wait, is this a serious thing
20:09:36 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
20:11:20 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:12:56 <Taneb> I shouldn't be allowed to program on serious things at this time at night
20:14:43 <ThatOtherPerson> I've never really understood why Europe and Asia are considered to be separate continents
20:15:21 <shachaf> europe is more of a peninsula hth
20:15:36 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm pretty sure I could drive to Taneb's house from here, if I was crazy and wanted to drive forever.
20:15:47 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I'm on an island
20:15:52 <Taneb> You'd have to catch a train
20:15:55 <pikhq_> ThatOtherPerson: How far is it?
20:16:15 <Koen_> that sounded surrealistic
20:16:23 <Taneb> You could probs drive to mnoqy's house
20:16:46 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: oh right, you're already in GB, which is an island, even if there's a tunnel to it
20:17:59 <ThatOtherPerson> but a drive from me to Taneb is somewhere around 6,629 km; 69 hours according to google maps
20:18:49 <kmc> when i was in Latvia there were signs for buses to London
20:18:52 <kmc> they're pretty slow.
20:19:31 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, to drive to Finland you have to choose whether you'd rather drive through Russia or Denmark
20:20:45 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, important question
20:20:45 <Bike> kmc: like through the chunnel or what
20:20:50 <ThatOtherPerson> Yikes, the Americas are kinda lonely and off in a corner, aren't they
20:20:52 <kmc> Bike: and/or boats
20:21:10 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: no but that's not really a prerequisite for driving in Saudi Arabia
20:21:27 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: half the world is a pretty big corner as corners go imo
20:21:58 <nooodl> shachaf stole my gnocchi joke... but i didn't make it in #esoteric wow
20:22:01 <Bike> of course you can't actually drive from north to south america
20:22:08 <kmc> i think some of them take a boat across to sweeden
20:22:12 <Bike> so it's more like two corners
20:22:15 <shachaf> nooodl: oh no did you make it about mnoqy
20:22:31 <pikhq_> s like a 15 mile gap in the Trans-American Highway, right?
20:22:35 <ThatOtherPerson> It takes me about 24 hours to get to my grandparents' house in California from my house here
20:22:37 <Bike> yeah, in panama
20:22:47 <nooodl> my gnocchi joke is: mnoqy, gnocchi,
20:22:55 <kmc> looks like ecolines runs southwest to warszawa and then west through berlin and amsterdam at crosses at calais (but maybe not on the train)
20:22:56 <Bike> the jungle part specifically
20:22:57 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, it's gonna turn out your grandparents are shachaf, isn't it
20:23:07 <nooodl> it was in a ~secret channel~
20:23:20 <mnoqy> nooodl: wow, a secret????
20:23:21 <Bike> of course driving from northern colombia down to the tierra del fuego must be, uh, exciting
20:23:21 <ThatOtherPerson> The Americas used to be connected, but some goofsters decided to cut them apart
20:23:24 <Bike> not to mention the amazon
20:23:39 <kmc> a man, a plan, a canal, shachaf
20:23:49 <shachaf> nooodl: was it in a ~secret channel~ that you and mnoqy are both in
20:23:58 <Bike> pikhq_: 99 mile, apparently!
20:24:11 <shachaf> nooodl: what was that channel called
20:24:28 <Bike> wow wait the highway doesn't even hit brazil, let alone paraguay and such
20:24:36 <nooodl> well it wouldn't be very ~secret~ if i told
20:25:08 <kmc> unofficially the trans-american highway does extend to tierra del fuego i thought
20:25:11 <Bike> I guess you can probably get to most of Brazil from Buenos Aires though.
20:25:13 <kmc> as in, there are roads that connect through
20:25:14 <shachaf> nooodl: that's ok "i don't mind"
20:25:22 <Bike> kmc: Yeah, but it would be kind of a pain, I mean.
20:25:28 <kmc> also north to deadhorse or whatever
20:25:31 <Bike> There's a whole lot of mountains and stuff.
20:25:33 <kmc> but not through the darién gap :)
20:25:42 <kmc> uh, wherever the alaska highway ends
20:25:44 <nooodl> mnoqy: if shachaf asks you about secret channels forever now i'm sorry
20:25:48 <Bike> oh, no, there's a place called Deadhorse, wow
20:25:58 <Bike> i was thinking the capital of the northwest territories ._.
20:26:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deadhorse_Alaska_aerial_view.jpg the name seems appropriate.
20:26:21 <shachaf> let me take you down, 'cause i'm going to / secret channels
20:26:27 <Taneb> Bike, Yellowknife?
20:26:45 <Taneb> Whitehorse is in the Yukon
20:26:46 <Bike> agh whitehorse is capital of the /yukon/
20:26:49 <Bike> canadians. fuckers
20:26:54 <kmc> er, not the alaska highway, the dalton highway
20:26:58 <shachaf> yukon say that again!!!!!!!!!!!!
20:27:00 <kmc> which has street view :)
20:27:03 <kmc> shachaf: ho ho ho
20:27:43 <shachaf> mnoqy: so tell me about secret channels forever
20:28:29 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/PanAmericanHwy.png
20:28:32 <mnoqy> shachaf: probably it'd get old pretty quickly
20:29:15 <kmc> Des Moines doesn't merit a dot on this map :(
20:29:27 <Bike> kmc: "yeah, i'm takin' a vacation down in el salvador" "oh, going through denver or minneanapolis?"
20:29:49 <kmc> i can tell people I grew up by the pan-amerigan highway
20:29:51 <kmc> sounds so cool
20:30:36 <kmc> pan-amereegan
20:30:45 <Bike> oh the transsiberian highway is fully connected
20:30:53 <Bike> way to drop theh ball americas
20:32:00 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B0_%22%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%22,_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%A2%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0.jpg very modern looking
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20:32:42 <shachaf> kmc: what do you think about the ""transcontinental railroad""
20:32:55 <shachaf> imo that url is missing a crucial letter just saying
20:33:03 <kmc> shachaf: in US? don't know where it is
20:33:06 <kmc> probably p. in favor tho
20:33:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad that's a long intro section........
20:33:42 <shachaf> It's not around anymore, is it?
20:33:50 <shachaf> I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad
20:33:53 <Bike> 9289 km. that's p. long
20:33:59 <kmc> i don't know, isn't some of the right of way still in use?
20:34:08 <kmc> "hundreds of miles are still in service today, especially through the Sierra Nevada Mountains and canyons in Utah and Wyoming. While the original rail has long since been replaced because of age and wear, and the roadbed upgraded and repaired, the lines generally run on top of the original, handmade grade."
20:34:14 <Bike> that intro is way too long
20:38:30 <shachaf> hmm do they still have rail barons today
20:38:35 <shachaf> kmc should be a rail baron imo
20:38:51 <kmc> they don't have
20:39:13 <kmc> i should move to central asia and become a pipeline baron
20:39:41 <shachaf> oerjan: they're talking about you oerjan
20:39:46 <shachaf> 13:39 <edwardk> applicative, ski: equivalent doesn't mean equally useful. Twan's version keeps the 'next' 'f' in the free applicative that you need for interpretation exposed without recursion. Oerjan's requires you to walk uselessly over n levels to get to it.
20:41:55 <ThatOtherPerson> kmc: we already have like thousands of oil princes over here
20:42:14 <Bike> they're literal princes though. it's just not the same
20:42:24 <shachaf> is that like #haskell and all the "project oiler" people
20:42:45 <Bike> also is saudi arabia considered part of central asia now because i thought it was pretty far west
20:42:51 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, barons are pretty low on the nobility thingy
20:43:04 <Taneb> So they can be subordinate to oil princes
20:43:12 <Taneb> Bike, it's nowhere near central asia
20:43:16 <Bike> god geopolitics terms make no fucking sense
20:43:31 <Bike> the "middle east" is west/south of "central asia"
20:43:34 <kmc> that's fine because geopolitics also makes no fucking sense
20:44:09 <Bike> i like that the premier theory of international relations is based on the suspposition that it's all anarchic nonsense
20:44:25 <kmc> which theory is that?
20:44:50 <Bike> 'anarchy' being the really used term, 'nonsense' not so much but i was Humorously Exaggerating
20:45:43 <shachaf> Bike we have a No Humor policy here
20:45:59 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_international_relations
20:46:02 <shachaf> kmc: How does Cygwin fork(), anyway?
20:46:08 <kmc> i don't know :(
20:46:29 <shachaf> It can't be that poor because it seems to work.
20:46:40 <shachaf> But Win32 doesn't give you anything like that, does it?
20:47:01 <ThatOtherPerson> Win32 is extremely confusing and should not be touched, iirc
20:47:19 <kmc> cygwin is like a dancing bear
20:48:49 <ThatOtherPerson> shachaf: basically, it goes through a lot of effort, calling a whole bunch of windows API functions, and somehow manages to replicate UNIX fork functionality
20:49:20 <shachaf> imo cygwin more like badideawin
20:49:36 <kmc> if JOS can implement copy-on-write fork in userspace then why not cygwin :( :(
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20:59:45 <kmc> shachaf: hm so (re #mosh) it might rely on the fact that every DLL is mapped at the same address in every process
20:59:56 <kmc> which I think is mostly true in Windows?
21:04:31 <shachaf> I thought it was a different address in every process but the same address between runs of the same process or something like that.
21:04:52 <kmc> yeah maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position-independent_code#Windows_DLLs
21:05:21 <shachaf> At any rate I heard that ASLR is done once per boot or something like that.
21:05:40 <kmc> DLLs are not position-independent code; they get relocated on load
21:05:57 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I'm wrong on the first part.
21:07:14 -!- augur has joined.
21:07:58 <kmc> (back later)
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21:25:00 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
21:25:01 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:25:16 <lambdabot> ais523 said 2h 40m 53s ago: good catch, I indeed missed it
21:26:02 <oerjan> shachaf: in fact i really knew it before that recent blog summary post about different versions.
21:27:26 <oerjan> but somehow i got caught up by the immediate praise anyhow.
21:28:45 <shachaf> oerjan: I wasn't saying you don't know it, I was saying #haskell was talking about you.
21:30:48 <oerjan> sorry, second law of thermodynamics
21:31:29 <olsner> every swat has an equal and opposite unswat?
21:31:36 <oerjan> you can remind me next time you do something bad, and we'll leave one out, ok?
21:31:48 <shachaf> How about I do something bad now?
21:31:59 <oerjan> olsner: you are confusing with newton's laws
21:32:13 <oerjan> shachaf: well if you _want_ to use it up already...
21:32:38 <shachaf> `run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i s/dal/dahl/g "$f"; done
21:33:18 <oerjan> how _does_ one refrain from swatting with an extra space prepended again.
21:35:10 * oerjan refuses to believe shachaf is that absent-minded.
21:35:25 <shachaf> The space was on purpose, of course.
21:35:32 <shachaf> I just am not managing to parse your sentence.
21:36:47 <oerjan> (how does one refraing (from (swatting (with ((an extra space) prepended)))) again.
21:37:39 <shachaf> ｀run for f in wisdom/*; do sed -i s/dal/dahl/g "$f"; done
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21:37:54 <oerjan> (how does one refraing (from swatting) (with ((an extra space) prepended))) again). also works.
21:38:48 <oerjan> it's really bad that you don't get it. i may have to refrain from swatting you for it.
21:39:56 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
21:41:06 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/$/ And hates Roald Dahl./' wisdom/oerjan
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21:41:57 <oerjan> <shachaf> WEST and EEST <-- eesti vabarik
21:42:31 <oerjan> shachaf: hey i'm supposed to be the one lying here
21:43:25 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/\. And/ who/' wisdom/oerjan
21:43:46 -!- augur has joined.
21:44:14 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
21:44:47 <zzo38> I am thinking of some programming language similar to Lisp using () and so on, as well as {} for quotationed blocks and [] for an alternate syntax and so on, but the program includes the commands to change the program to become the answer, and then it is further compiled into an assembly language, which might also have its own macros, too.
21:44:48 * oerjan invites a giant (not BFG) to shachaf's home
21:45:23 <zzo38> Is your home big enough for any giant?
21:45:46 <oerjan> zzo38: the giant doesn't need to enter
21:46:23 <zzo38> oerjan: O, OK. If you just need to throw stuff in the chimney then it is OK
21:46:40 <shachaf> zzo38: No, the giant reaches in the window and takes you out and eats you.
21:46:48 <oerjan> zzo38: i think you may not be familiar with the roald dahl type of giant.
21:46:59 <shachaf> oerjan: In Hebrew the BFG was called the Ig.
21:47:27 <zzo38> shachaf: O, well, then their hand has to fit in the window, and it has to be open unless you want the window also broken...
21:48:42 <GOMADWarrior> If reality is a simulation, are we players or NPCs
21:48:42 <zzo38> Yes, also if you don't care if it is broken or not.
21:48:59 <oerjan> shachaf: well they're pretty big on not leaving conclusive evidence...
21:49:00 <zzo38> GOMADWarrior: That is the question. Nobody knows.
21:49:24 <oerjan> GOMADWarrior: some of each.
21:49:26 <shachaf> oerjan: well they're pretty big on everything
21:50:02 <oerjan> shachaf: which thatsthejoke link do you prefer hth
21:50:58 <shachaf> oerjan: what if the joke is that i was explaining the joke
21:52:37 <oerjan> shachaf: then i link http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke and who wants that?
21:53:02 <shachaf> um explaining the joke is a time honoured tradition
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22:02:42 <oerjan> <elliott> and fix the irc rfc to allow more chars <-- um HackEgo cuts off _far_ shorter than irc demands iirc
22:04:00 <HackEgo> 1y \ 2y \ 3y \ 4y \ 5y \ 6y \ 7y \ 8y \ 9y \ 10y \ 11y \ 12y \ 13y \ 14y \ 15y \ 16y \ 17y \ 18y \ 19y \ 20y \ 21y \ 22y \ 23y \ 24y \ 25y \ 26y \ 27y \ 28y \ 29y \ 30y \ 31y \ 32
22:04:16 <oerjan> who the heck wants tabs
22:05:12 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'cycle ['0'..'9']'
22:05:19 <HackEgo> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,
22:05:57 <oerjan> that is not how you print String, HackEgo
22:06:18 <Bike> > cycle ['0'..'9']
22:06:19 <lambdabot> "01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123...
22:06:28 <Bike> how mysterious..
22:06:44 <nooodl> `run ghc -e "cycle ['0'..'9']"
22:06:44 <oerjan> `run ghc -e "cycle ['0'..'9']"
22:06:49 <HackEgo> "0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
22:06:49 <HackEgo> "0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345
22:07:41 <Bike> oh my god, operator precedence
22:08:01 <nooodl> > length "\"0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345"
22:09:13 <oerjan> Bike: i hope you're not referring to anything done above
22:09:31 <Bike> hope is a good thing to have
22:10:36 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/yes: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped
22:11:27 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 27456 Apr 28 2010 /usr/bin/yes
22:11:35 <oerjan> 16:03:09: <Sgeo> Is putting large chunks of butter on my bagels a bad idea?
22:11:35 <oerjan> 16:03:53: <ThatOtherPerson> Define "large"
22:11:35 <oerjan> 16:04:04: <Taneb> THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL
22:11:48 <oerjan> don't use butter straight out of the fridge hth
22:11:53 <shachaf> I have a 408 byte yes but I didn't really spend any time making it small, other than writing it with no libc etc.
22:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ok i think i am now legitimately scared by gangnam style
22:12:28 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> THEY CRUSH THE BAGEL <-- don't use butter straight out of the fridge hth
22:12:54 <Sgeo> The butter is in a tub of butter that people take out with a knife
22:13:02 <Sgeo> Alongside cream cheese and other stuff
22:14:02 <Sgeo> Um. People don't start eating the bagels before they use it
22:14:31 <Phantom_Hoover> why would you keep your cheese and butter in the same tub do you not have two tubs what is wrong with you
22:14:45 <oerjan> you don't want to think about what impolite people do.
22:15:22 <Sgeo> There are separate tubs that are next to each other.
22:16:17 <Sgeo> Butter is free, cream cheese is not. I think cashier thinks I'm trying to cheat... she keeps asking if it's cream cheese and I say butter
22:16:50 <oerjan> i scream you scream cheese
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22:29:40 <Jafet> `run echo -e '\x7fELF\x02\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0>\0\x01\0\0\0x\0@\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xb0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\08\0\x01\0@\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\x9a\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x9a\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0 \0\0\0\0\0H\xc7\xc7\x01\0\0\0H\xc7\xc6\x98\0@\0H\xc7\xc2\x02\0\0\0H\xc7\xc0\x01\0\0\0\x0f\x05\xeb\xf5y' > bin/y && chmod +x bin/y
22:29:53 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
22:31:10 <Jafet> inb4 kmc "too many badchars"
22:31:24 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:31:43 <Bike> is that a muppetlabs program
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22:36:59 <Jafet> Also why are amd64 instructions so long
22:37:26 <Jafet> They added way too many registers
22:42:57 <olsner> in this case they're long because someone failed to use shorter equivalent instructions
22:43:46 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access y: No such file or directory
22:43:47 -!- augur has joined.
22:43:54 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 154 Apr 13 22:29 bin/y
22:44:18 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
22:48:31 <kmc> hm Olivia Colman was in Look Around You as well
22:48:37 <kmc> there are only like 12 british actors aren't there
22:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> well there are serious ones as well but they mostly just do soaps
22:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> also there are actrs but they just perform on stage and hollywood films
22:55:17 <Sgeo> At least one British actor I know of did stuff in a TV show after doing stuff in a Hollywood film
22:55:38 <Sgeo> Oh, he's Scottish
22:56:54 <Sgeo> Ok, so he is British.
22:57:16 <nooodl> i keep forgetting the venn diagram
22:58:16 <nooodl> Sgeo: let me guess. david tennant
22:58:33 <HackEgo> cat: bin\y: No such file or directory
22:58:43 <nooodl> "the only scottish actor"
22:59:22 <oerjan> even Phantom_Hoover doesn't include sean connery, i see
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23:01:07 <oerjan> "Sean Connery has a villa in Kranidi, Greece. His neighbour is the Dutch crown-prince with whom he shares a helicopter platform."
23:01:39 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a real sense of community in illionaire villas
23:01:48 <oerjan> "Connery swore never to return to live in Scotland unless it becomes an independent state,."
23:02:21 <oerjan> there's something about that too
23:03:14 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlEFfyf79DM
23:03:27 <Sgeo> (Harry Potter book 4 spoilers)
23:03:27 <olsner> perhaps he simply assumed scotland would never become independent
23:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i see the great british venn diagram's accompanying article doesn't mention that 'scotch' is The Wrong Demonym
23:03:47 <olsner> Sgeo: is that the one where dumbledore dies?
23:04:26 <oerjan> olsner: he supports the scottish national party. although he's no longer allowed to give them money because they passed a law against foreign contributions.
23:05:43 <Bike> oh, hey, it's david tennant.
23:08:47 <kmc> there should also be a venn diagram for New York City, Manhattan (borough), Manhattan (island), Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens, etc
23:10:00 <olsner> the difference between those seems pretty unimportant
23:10:16 <kmc> MAYBE SCOTLAND IS ALSO UNIMPORTANT
23:10:52 <kmc> it's confusing when people use "Long Island" to mean "the parts of Long Island that aren't in NYC"
23:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well was manhattan ever INVADED BY BROOKLYN AND REPRESSED
23:11:31 <kmc> the differences between Manhattan the island and the political entity are more trivia than important
23:11:46 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: insert joke about hipsters
23:13:07 <kmc> also Ellis Island is split between new jersey and new york in some kind of complicated arrangement
23:13:44 <elliott> kmc: btw guess who said this (i saw it and thought of you)
23:13:48 <Bike> through a complicated legal loophole, coney island turns out to still be owned by the royal dutch
23:13:50 <elliott> "One advantage startups have over established companies is that there are no discrimination laws about starting businesses. For example, I would be reluctant to start a startup with a woman who had small children, or was likely to have them soon.
23:13:54 <elliott> But you're not allowed to ask prospective employees if they plan to have kids soon. Believe it or not, under current US law, you're not even allowed to discriminate on the basis of intelligence.
23:13:58 <elliott> Whereas when you're starting a company, you can discriminate on any basis you want about who you start it with."
23:14:01 <elliott> (note: this challenge is easy)
23:14:10 <kmc> elliott: Some Asshole
23:14:14 <Bike> believe it or not,
23:14:22 <elliott> http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html
23:14:27 <kmc> i didn't think he was quite like that
23:14:32 <kmc> my guess was peter thiel
23:14:38 <Bike> peace be upon fuck that guy
23:14:40 <elliott> not sure esr is quite a "startup guy"
23:15:00 <kmc> it's not clear without context that pg is saying this is a good thing, but he probably is
23:15:09 <Bike> people talked about paul graham in #lisp again today. i'm so glad i have the ability to zone out
23:15:17 <elliott> Like most startups, ours began with a group of friends, and it was through personal contacts that we got most of the people we hired. This is a crucial difference between startups and big companies. Being friends with someone for even a couple days will tell you more than companies could ever learn in interviews. [2]
23:15:31 <elliott> and the whole article is about startups being great obviously
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23:15:45 <kmc> that's a p. cool way for a bunch of college educated white guys to hire a bunch of other white guys who went to the same college
23:16:19 <Bike> i'm gonna go see what he thinks of affirmative action, wish me luck
23:16:55 <kmc> also "you're not even allowed to discriminate on the basis of intelligence" is a big fucking [citation needed]
23:17:16 <Bike> hm, no mention of "affirmative" or "action", thank god
23:17:21 <kmc> i would believe that discriminating against certain kinds of cognitive disabilities could get you in trouble
23:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> please tell me he's not conflating 'intelligence' with IQ
23:17:57 <Bike> whatever he means it's dumb, so
23:18:11 <Sgeo> I had a mutual friend with the guy who hired me. It makes me feel awkward that that sort of thing is important
23:18:12 <Bike> « "Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?". National Geographic News.» why did i google this
23:18:35 <Bike> if it makes you feel better that's pretty universal, sgeo
23:18:50 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: hard to equate "intelligence" with anything meaningful
23:19:01 <elliott> i'm pretty sure it doesn't actually mean anything
23:19:24 <Bike> human universals are pretty lol in general but "people like people people like" and "people are more likely to want to perform activities with someone they like" probably are
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23:19:41 * kmc feels remaining respect for Paul Graham vanish
23:20:06 <Bike> uh excuse you phantom he wrote a /webstore/
23:20:24 <elliott> i like how he is sort of a lisp pariah
23:20:29 <elliott> because nobody likes his book
23:20:47 <olsner> he wrote a book? what is it about?
23:21:02 <kmc> elliott: actually i left my startup job just last week
23:21:04 <Bike> he wrote ANSI Common Lisp which is a pretty... something, intro to programming in CL
23:21:20 <kmc> he wrote On Lisp
23:21:29 <ion> This is your brain on Lisp
23:21:31 <Bike> whatever it's called
23:21:33 <kmc> which is kind of insane
23:21:34 <Sgeo> Why do all the big CL authors do things that the community recommends against
23:21:48 <kmc> he uses macros for /everything/
23:21:54 <kmc> want to map a function over a list? WHY NOT A MACRO?
23:21:59 <Sgeo> Lambda Over Lisp hates earmuffs, there are some quabbles about PG's stuff in On Lisp (not sure what)
23:22:08 <elliott> kmc: unless you left it because you found a better job
23:22:10 <olsner> Sgeo: the lisp community might just be crazy and not make good recommendations
23:22:11 <Sgeo> erm, Let over Lambda
23:22:23 <Sgeo> earmuffs are a good recommendation, I think.
23:22:29 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:22:38 <Bike> Sgeo: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html if you want to see it in mind numbing detail
23:23:19 <Bike> but i don't think xach or gigamonkeys write particularly insane code, i dunno
23:23:54 * Sgeo only had PG and LoL in mind
23:24:21 <Bike> i haven't read lol. reading is for squares
23:24:24 <kmc> elliott: not yet
23:24:30 <kmc> but I wasn't particularly enjoying my old job
23:24:54 <elliott> are you telling me rewriting irc as a web app isn't exciting
23:24:58 <elliott> ok i shouldn't be a jerk about this
23:24:58 <kmc> there were a few things that were really annoying (like, one of my coworkers) and the rest of it was fine, but nothing super awesome to keep me going through the annoyances
23:24:59 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
23:25:32 <elliott> i sure hate $kmcs_coworker, they are the worst
23:25:49 <kmc> if given the opportunity to work with someone you know is annoying because they might have changed: they haven't and you shouldn't
23:26:29 <kmc> it sucks because i really liked the rest of the people
23:26:35 <kmc> that was the main reason I was interested in working there
23:26:41 <Bike> what was the problem with this person?
23:26:44 <Bike> just general annoyingness?
23:27:51 <Bike> uh are you implying something
23:27:55 <Bike> something... bikist
23:28:06 <olsner> hmm, sounds like the annoying one should've been the one to leave rather than you
23:28:19 <olsner> but that's their problem now :)
23:29:28 <kmc> he's the annoying one but i'm the one who had trouble dealing with it, while he remained cheerful and productive through being annoying
23:30:57 <kmc> Bike: if you have an association with the word "froshy" then it probably describes this person
23:31:25 <kmc> someone who thinks they're hot shit because they were the smartest person around in high school, and who dropped out after one year of college at a mediocre school
23:31:37 <kmc> and yet actually doesn't produce very good code
23:33:10 <kmc> and communicates poorly
23:35:17 <oerjan> <Bike> « "Did Discrimination Enhance Intelligence of Jews?". National Geographic News.» why did i google this <-- i've heard that theory before and it actually seemed plausible.
23:35:42 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/review/RN9XMF3CS1YPS nice
23:35:54 <Bike> oerjan: it sounds very evopsychy
23:35:56 <kmc> it certainly had a huge effect on cultural values, if not biology
23:36:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, not hard to come up with a theory that seems plausible
23:37:40 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:42:02 <oerjan> Bike: well racism and eugenics aside (am i being stereotypical?) you wouldn't expect psychology to be _unaffected_ by evolution caused by selection.
23:43:11 <Bike> of course not, but evolutionary psychology has a long history of being made-up racist shit, so i'm strongly inclined to dismiss it, unfortunately
23:43:13 <oerjan> but i guess there's still that nature/nurture questino.
23:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, that's all true but that doesn't mean 'property x is caused by evolutionary factor y' is actually /correct/
23:47:33 <kmc> yeah, presumably some evo psych theories are actually correct, but it's just way too easy to come up with one to justify whatever crazy bullshit you like
23:47:36 <kmc> and way too hard to test them
23:48:03 -!- itsy has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:48:19 <Phantom_Hoover> the classic example is the assignent of pink to females; you can say it's because berries are red and hunter gatherers and all that, and it sounds plausible
23:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> except a century or so ago pink was a masculine colour and so it all goes to shit
23:49:13 <Bike> oh if we're hating on evopsych now i want to mention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kanazawa
23:49:24 <Bike> did you know you can actually be fired from psychology today? weird huh
23:49:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: actually the "pink was a masculine colour" is itself a myth hth
23:49:34 <Phantom_Hoover> "Kanazawa has been very controversial, which he attributes to what he considers political correctness."
23:49:37 <kmc> I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE
23:49:55 <elliott> guys why the lucky stiff updated his site again!!!!!!
23:50:02 <elliott> http://www.gironda.org/pcl/SOLICIT.png
23:50:02 <Bike> cite [5] there by other evolutionary psychologists (i.e. ones that aren't racists) is pretty great and worth a read
23:50:17 <elliott> also he's into ocaml now??? http://www.scribd.com/doc/135658986/-why-Homework
23:50:24 <oerjan> (am i violating that list linked in the logs every time i say "actually"?)
23:50:24 <elliott> MORE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5541880
23:50:30 <kmc> elliott: what is this
23:50:39 <elliott> kmc: why the lucky stiff's website came back up a few months
23:50:46 <elliott> http://whytheluckystiff.net/
23:50:56 <elliott> its contents have been changing since
23:51:04 <elliott> but they changed a bit to start with
23:51:14 <elliott> (last picture before these: http://www.scribd.com/doc/135635255/desolee)
23:52:29 <Jafet> `run echo -e '\x7fELF\x02\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0>\0\x01\0\0\0x\0@\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xc8\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\08\0\x01\0@\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\0\0@\0\0\0\0\0\xb6\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xb6\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0 \0\0\0\0\0H\xc7\xc7\x01\0\0\0H\x8bt$\x10H\x85\xf6u\x0dH\xc7\xc6\xb4\0@\0H\x8dW\x01\xeb\x17H\x89\xf2\xeb\x03H\xff\xc2\x8a\x0a\x84\xc9u\xf7\xc6\x02\x0aH\xff\xc2H)\xf2H\x89\xf8\x0f\x05\xeb\xf9y\x0a' > b
23:52:43 <Jafet> `run chmod +x bin/y && y yyy
23:52:45 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
23:52:54 <kmc> hacked by Jafet
23:53:09 <elliott> this channel was so much better when cpressey was in it
23:53:09 -!- Jafet has left.
23:53:12 <elliott> now nobody appreciates why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:53:13 -!- Jafet has joined.
23:53:27 <Phantom_Hoover> 4od doesn't have the armando ianucci shows ALL IS DARKNESS ALL IS DEATH
23:53:34 <kmc> `run echo 'const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };' > maze.c && gcc -nostdlib -o maze maze.c && ./maze
23:53:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000000000040010c \ bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./maze
23:53:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :(
23:53:46 <Jafet> `run mv bin/{y,yyy} && yyy
23:53:47 <kmc> what's 4od
23:53:49 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
23:53:58 <kmc> also Veep starts up again tomorrow
23:54:01 <Jafet> This machine must have different stack layout
23:54:10 <kmc> Jafet: what does your thing do?
23:54:18 <Phantom_Hoover> we have a different one for every channel because of socialism i guess
23:54:20 <elliott> relevant cpressey on the github account the site is hosted on: https://github.com/cwales/cwales.github.com/issues/1
23:54:24 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
23:54:26 <kmc> HackEgo is User Mode Linux which is all crazy
23:54:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: you don't need to kill you just need to get a VPS with an american IP address
23:54:52 <kmc> maybe EC2 is good enough, you can get a free EC2 instance for a year
23:54:55 <oerjan> Jafet: your initial command got cut off at the b
23:55:16 <oerjan> `run mv b bin/y && chmod +x bin/y
23:55:26 <HackEgo> yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yy
23:56:24 <kmc> `run which gccrun
23:56:41 <kmc> `run curl -o bin/gccrun http://web.mit.edu/snippets/programming/gccrun && chmod +x bin/gccrun
23:56:58 <kmc> `gccrun printf("Hello, world!\n");
23:57:00 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/gccrun: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `<' \ /hackenv/bin/gccrun: line 1: `<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd"> <html><head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title>ERROR: The requested URL could not be retrieved</title> <style type=
23:58:05 <kmc> `run rm bin/gccrun && cd bin && wget http://web.mit.edu/snippets/programming/gccrun && chmod +x gccrun && head -n 2 gccrun
23:58:08 <HackEgo> --2013-04-13 23:58:08-- http://web.mit.edu/snippets/programming/gccrun \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-04-13 23:58:08 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
23:58:16 <Bike> i believe in you kmc
23:58:30 <kmc> what's the best way to 'upload' a file to HackEgo? do I put it on a pastebin?
23:58:56 <oerjan> kmc: or on your own website.
23:59:34 <kmc> `fetch https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/72c5551e69d1a14c3474/raw/780fb50ae5d169edaf221d360e443e35d21814ca/gccrun
23:59:36 <HackEgo> 2013-04-13 23:59:36 URL:https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/72c5551e69d1a14c3474/raw/780fb50ae5d169edaf221d360e443e35d21814ca/gccrun [764] -> "gccrun" [1]
23:59:45 <ion> `run cat bin/fetch
23:59:47 <HackEgo> cat: bin/fetch: No such file or directory
23:59:48 <oerjan> `fetch is outside the sandbox, so it isn't affected by the http whitelist.
23:59:49 <kmc> `run mv gccrun bin/ && chmod +x bin/gccrun
23:59:55 <ion> `run type fetch
23:59:56 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: fetch: not found
23:59:58 <kmc> `gccrun printf("Hello, world!\n");
00:01:59 <kmc> `gccrun uint32_t h,l; asm("rdtsc" : "=d"(h), "=a"(l)); printf("%lu\n", ((unsigned long) h)<<32 + l);
00:02:11 <oerjan> ion: it's not a command in HackEgo's chroot at all, i think
00:02:13 <kmc> `gccrun uint32_t h,l; asm("rdtsc" : "=d"(h), "=a"(l)); printf("%lu\n", ((unsigned long) h)<<32 + l);
00:02:37 <ion> oerjan: Yeah, i inferred as much.
00:03:41 <oerjan> `interp c printf("Hello, world!\n"); /* Is this broken? */
00:03:58 <HackEgo> Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for
00:04:40 <oerjan> Gregor: wtf is that error
00:05:09 <elliott> interp c calls interp c etc.
00:05:18 <kmc> elliott: so what should i do with my life
00:05:41 <elliott> kmc: how about find a way to give me lots of money
00:05:50 <elliott> and then execute that plan
00:06:00 <kmc> i'll get right on that
00:06:12 <elliott> i don't know what to do with my own life so this is about the best i can achieve under the circumstances
00:07:16 <Bike> have you considered cows
00:07:35 <elliott> kmc: you could rewrite other things as web apps
00:07:45 <elliott> http colon slash slash fing.er
00:08:13 <kmc> they call 'em fingers but i never see them fing
00:20:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Kanazawa#World_War_III
00:21:48 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 183 Apr 13 23:55 bin/y
00:21:55 <HackEgo> Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet \ Jafet
00:22:24 <ion> @karma shachaf
00:22:28 <ion> `run y shachaf++
00:22:29 <HackEgo> shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ shachaf++ \ sh
00:22:31 <ion> @karma shachaf
00:22:40 <shachaf> ion...................................................................................................................................................................................................
00:23:12 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: seriously read http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/kanazawa-statement.pdf to cleanse your pallette, most of the signatories have done pretty cool work
00:23:27 <kmc> wait was i gone
00:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "the guy is an idiot and wrong" is not really a revelation to me
00:23:38 <ion> hello, shichaf. hichaf.
00:23:47 <Bike> look up some of the signatories then
00:23:55 <Bike> anyone who isn't that guy really
00:24:13 <shachaf> wow i missed a lot of "kmc goodness" while i was away
00:25:44 <shachaf> kmc: I was at the American Society of Civil Engineers General Meeting at Berkeley where a couple of people were talking about their startup.
00:26:10 <Bike> a civil engineering startup?
00:26:13 <Bike> is that like... a town
00:26:26 <Bike> we need seed funding for this town we are going to build.
00:26:28 <Bike> very 19th century
00:26:29 <kmc> disrupt the bridge industry
00:26:32 <kmc> yeah seriously
00:26:43 <shachaf> I think it's a Mobile App for people doing construction of some kind.
00:26:47 <kmc> railroads were the 19th century startups
00:27:00 <Bike> that reminds me did you know the capitol of Burma was a fucking field before they started building in 2002
00:27:21 <kmc> but they all had names like The Shitsville and Aleghenny Railroad and not railroad.me or whatever
00:27:34 <kmc> but they were mostly investment bubbles and stock scams
00:27:40 <shachaf> <title>Railroad.me: The Leading Railroad Site on the Net</title>
00:27:46 <elliott> i should change my name to Ellio.tt
00:27:47 <kmc> which had a side effect of producing useful infrastructure that could then go into public ownership
00:27:53 <elliott> and then spend the $5000 and two yaks it costs to buy that
00:27:55 <Bike> i think the "getting land from the government" part is pretty interesting
00:28:14 <shachaf> elliott: Is that related to "the other tt".
00:28:24 <Bike> monopolizing trade in areas that don't exist until you monopolize trade in them
00:28:36 <elliott> it is related to trinidad & tobago
00:28:39 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/ is an interesting online book about the early days of rapid transit in NYC
00:28:54 <kmc> if you want to hear about lots of stock market scams and oddly designed trains
00:29:19 <kmc> also cool old-timey photos
00:29:22 * Bike bookmarks for a rainy day, maybe
00:29:33 <Bike> not like i don't have forty fucking books bookmarked, but w/e
00:29:49 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: haha wow that section
00:30:07 <elliott> "without a single American life lost"
00:30:19 <Bike> the important lives, as we know
00:30:22 <elliott> FINALLY someone happens upon the solution of "how about we just kill everyone else"
00:30:40 <Phantom_Hoover> because no true american would be in the middle east right
00:30:49 <Bike> it's seriously really disheartening to see people actually talk about vitrifying entire nations
00:30:53 <Phantom_Hoover> also it's not like there are any friendly states downwind of 'the middle east'
00:30:58 <Bike> like obviously they're stupid in addition to all around terrible, but gah
00:31:06 <shachaf> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig2-16.jpg LOOKS FAMILIAR !!
00:31:19 <kmc> yes i love that photo
00:31:22 <Bike> ...huh i've seen that image before too. is it a kmcism
00:31:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the middle east is officially defined as "the place terrorists come from"
00:31:34 <kmc> elliott: durka durka mohammad jihad
00:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, so if you're in the middle east you're a terrorist?
00:32:44 <kmc> i'm sad i missed the era of elevated trains in manhattan
00:32:45 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: why else would you be in the middle east...
00:32:50 <elliott> the exception is if you go there to kill people
00:33:22 <kmc> it's cool that they built the els out to what was then the middle of nowhere: http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig18-23.jpg
00:34:07 <Bike> sometimes i think it's funny that one of the major US allies in the region is a place where the leading religious authority thought the earth was flat through the 90s but then i remember that's actually pretty sad
00:34:21 <kmc> saudi arabia?
00:34:40 <Bike> Apparently one of the princes returning from orbit convinced him otherwise.
00:34:50 <shachaf> Bike[TYPOCLASS SUBSTITUTE]: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rclark/gorn.html
00:35:26 <lambdabot> SaulGorn says: A formalist is one who cannot understand a theory unless it is meaningless.
00:35:36 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig21-13.jpg
00:36:07 <Bike> oh, and i saw some BBC article a while back that had a UK military guy say they "struggled to harmonize" saudi arabia's human rights abuses etc. with their selling weapons to them
00:37:23 <Bike> "Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice " oh i'm reading about this again help
00:37:52 <kmc> at that salt mine outside kraków they had a bunch of centuries old horse powered machinery down in the mine
00:38:03 <Bike> the mine from the 14th century?
00:38:11 <kmc> "how do they get the horse back out?" "what do you mean, get him out? they put a horse in the mine and then he lives in a mine for the rest of his life and then dies"
00:38:22 <Bike> uh, well, wow.
00:38:28 <kmc> this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine
00:38:34 <kmc> 13th century
00:38:45 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: shove it down an unused bit of mine i think
00:39:05 <Bike> you could eat it
00:39:18 <kmc> the have a statue of Karol Wojtyła down there
00:39:21 <kmc> the pope as a pillar of salt.
00:39:25 <Phantom_Hoover> so if you realise you missed a bit of... minerals you had to run around in some tunnels full of dead horse? yuck
00:39:45 <Bike> salt, ph. it's a salt mine. it says "salt mine" right there
00:39:57 <kmc> uh salt is a kind of mineral *pushes up glasses*
00:40:10 <kmc> Wikipedia section: "Sister caves"
00:40:15 <Bike> kmc: it's weird to consider that JPII and Goethe could have been in the same room, for some reason
00:40:17 <kmc> my next band will be named Sister Caves
00:40:32 <Bike> whoa it's like a sister city relationship
00:40:36 <Bike> what the hell? awesome
00:40:55 <elliott> kmc: can i join sister caves
00:40:56 <kmc> 404 - Impossibile trovare il file o la directory.
00:41:01 <elliott> i just want to be able to say "i was in a band with kmc once"
00:41:11 <kmc> elliott: yeah
00:41:16 <Bike> Bassoon! Go for the bassoon.
00:41:21 <Bike> You'd be a perfect bassoonist.
00:41:29 <shachaf> http://bex.io/ <title>Bex.io || Own your own Bitcoin Exchange</title>
00:41:32 <kmc> trovare! like "treasure trove" in which "trove" is an adjective *pushes up glasses again*
00:41:50 <Jafet> `run echo 'char _start[] = "C\x8bL$\x08\x85\xc9u\x0b\x89\xe1f\xc7\x01y\x0a\xb2\x02\xeb\x0f\x89\xca\x8a\x02B\x84\xc0u\xf9\xc6B\xff\x0a)\xca1\xc0\xb0\x04\xcd\x80\xeb\xf8";' > y.c && gcc y.c -o bin/y -nostdlib -m32 && y 'amd64 sucks'
00:41:54 <Bike> elliott: just fyi electric <anything> is real and probably kinda cool.
00:41:55 <HackEgo> y.c:1:17: warning: hex escape sequence out of range \ y.c:1:17: warning: hex escape sequence out of range \ y.c:1:17: warning: hex escape sequence out of range \ bash: /hackenv/bin/y: cannot execute binary file
00:42:07 <kmc> shachaf: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15026825/php-mysql-how-to-prevent-two-requests-update is that where this code is from
00:42:30 <elliott> I have invented the world's first electric triangle. The project isn't totally complete yet, as I can't play full songs, but this is enough of a demo to prove that I did it.
00:42:32 <Bike> Can I exchange shares in market exchange strength records
00:42:35 <kmc> if($row['free']) { return true; } else { return false; }
00:42:43 <kmc> this code smells like roses
00:42:58 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig21-9.jpg
00:43:19 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Time flies like an Arrow. Space leaks like a Monad.
00:43:21 <Bike> me on my way to steal yo girl
00:43:24 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. Syntax rules like a macro.
00:43:28 <oerjan> <Bike> Apparently one of the princes returning from orbit convinced him otherwise. <-- this sounds like a method that could be used in more circumstances.
00:43:35 <kmc> you cannot steal that which is not owned
00:43:51 <kmc> yes let's send all the religious nutjobs to space and SPOILER ALERT leave them there
00:44:13 <Bike> is it time for another muslims in space discussion
00:44:23 <kmc> stross already did it
00:44:34 <Bike> the real world already did it
00:44:42 <Jafet> `run echo -ne '\x7fELF\x01\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0\x03\0\x01\0\0\0T\x80\x04\x084\0\0\0\x90\0\0\0\0\0\0\04\0 \0\x01\0(\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x80\x04\x08\0\x80\x04\x08\x7f\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\x10\0\0C\x8bL$\x08\x85\xc9u\x0b\x89\xe1f\xc7\x01y\x0a\xb2\x02\xeb\x0f\x89\xca\x8a\x02B\x84\xc0u\xf9\xc6B\xff\x0a)\xca1\xc0\xb0\x04\xcd\x80\xeb\xf8' > bin/y && chmod +x bin/y
00:44:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/y: cannot execute binary file \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/y: Success
00:44:58 <elliott> muslim astronauts have problems praying i think
00:45:07 <oerjan> <Bike> salt, ph. it's a salt mine. it says "salt mine" right there <-- so you are saying the horse should be well preserved?
00:45:08 <shachaf> `run file bin/y; ls -l bin/y
00:45:10 <HackEgo> bin/y: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), corrupted program header size, corrupted section header size \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 126 Apr 14 00:44 bin/y
00:45:20 <kmc> imo bin/yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
00:45:20 <shachaf> way to corrupt the program header, Jafet
00:45:21 <Bike> oerjan: yes exactly.
00:45:29 <shachaf> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
00:46:19 <Bike> btw if someone says "saudi arabia" is ancient or tribal or something please punch them for me. thx
00:46:26 <shachaf> nooodl: REVEAL THE SECRET CHANNEL
00:46:26 <oerjan> <kmc> 404 - Impossibile trovare il file o la directory. <-- is that bad localization or do italians really call it "directory"?
00:46:32 <olsner> nooodl: yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw, hth
00:46:45 <elliott> kmc: that is a good diagram
00:46:53 <kmc> oerjan: i dunno, a lot of computing terms stay in english :(
00:47:08 <kmc> it's depriving the world of a lot of undoubtedly hilarious German compound words
00:47:16 <kmc> they just say Mobile-Telephone-Connectingcable or whatever
00:47:32 <shachaf> In languages with other alphabets it doesn't work unless you transliterate it.
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00:47:55 <kmc> whats the best alphabet
00:48:09 <Bike> Have you ever looked at it? You'll understand.
00:48:45 <shachaf> thai is "a l l l l l right"
00:48:53 <olsner> Bike: hmm, quite similar to voynichese
00:49:02 <nooodl> shachaf: bad news: theres no secret channel :(
00:49:12 <shachaf> nooodl: bad news YOURE LYING
00:49:34 <oerjan> <kmc> if($row['free']) { return true; } else { return false; } <-- i suppose you might want normalized booleans?
00:49:44 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig9-10.jpg all of the el companies submitted engravings like this one and then some of them got sued when what they built was approximately 100x uglier
00:49:53 <kmc> oerjan: true. does !! work in PHP? it's a little weird anyway
00:49:54 <mnoqy> shachaf: ssshhh settle down
00:49:57 <kmc> it's a JS idiom though
00:50:12 <Jafet> `run echo -ne '\x7fELF\x01\x01\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x02\0\x03\0\x01\0\0\0T\x80\x04\x084\0\0\0\x90\0\0\0\0\0\0\x004\x00 \0\x01\0(\0\x03\0\x02\0\x01\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x80\x04\x08\0\x80\x04\x08\x7f\0\0\0\x7f\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\x10\0\0C\x8bL$\x08\x85\xc9u\x0b\x89\xe1f\xc7\x01y\x0a\xb2\x02\xeb\x0f\x89\xca\x8a\x02B\x84\xc0u\xf9\xc6B\xff\x0a)\xca1\xc0\xb0\x04\xcd\x80\xeb\xf8' > bin/y && chmod +x bin/y
00:50:27 <shachaf> mnoqy: i will never se'le downn until the secret channle is revealed
00:50:30 <Bike> olsner: i don't see it.
00:50:33 <HackEgo> 00000000 7f 45 4c 46 01 01 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |.ELF............| \ 00000010 02 00 03 00 01 00 00 00 54 80 04 08 34 00 00 00 |........T...4...| \ 00000020 90 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 34 00 20 00 01 00 28 00 |........4. ...(.| \ 00000030 03 00 02 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 80 04 08 |................| \ 00000040 00 80 04 08 7f 0
00:50:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/y: cannot execute binary file \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/y: Success
00:51:07 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig12-8.jpg i feel like this should be a Married to the Sea comic
00:51:14 <oerjan> <Bike> is it time for another muslims in space discussion <-- now i'm reminded of the great caliph in the valerian comic
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00:51:28 <shachaf> http://hdiff.luite.com/gloss/styrene/ HASKELL IN YOUR WEB BROWSER[*]
00:51:42 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig6-2.jpg this man's grandson will grow up to be Transistor Man
00:52:08 <kmc> shachaf: so what is it
00:52:11 <kmc> haskell compiled to js?
00:52:22 <Bike> oerjan: valerian?
00:52:26 <shachaf> http://hdiff.luite.com/gloss/pong/
00:52:52 <kmc> http://hdiff.luite.com/gloss/styrene/out.js
00:53:09 <kmc> this could... use some minification
00:53:27 <shachaf> 17:53 <luite> ion: yeah this is the output from the first pass, without the optimizer
00:53:30 <shachaf> 17:53 <luite> which just uses the ghc-supplied unique names everywhere
00:53:39 <oerjan> <elliott> muslim astronauts have problems praying i think <-- i don't see why, they should be able to get perfect 3d direction to mecca which surely is even better?
00:53:51 <shachaf> (in response to (closing the parenthesis here so i can just paste):) 17:51 <ion> http://hdiff.luite.com/gloss/styrene/out.js could benefit from a bit of minification, just in case a client requests it without gzip compression. :-)
00:54:08 <HackEgo> 358f7740207e437860756331b4aa611e9ae230f4 bin/y
00:54:23 <ion> `shachaf1sum bin/y
00:54:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shachaf1sum: not found
00:54:49 <kmc> i'll make my own National Institute of Standards and Technology! with blackjack! and hookers!
00:55:50 <kmc> '"As far as allegations of no hacking, I'm afraid that's just not true: We implemented the Rho and Pi steps of the brand new SHA3 standard algorithm "Keccak" inside the RAR archiver's internal virtual machine... It's worth noting that the materials used to consume laughing gas were actually already available at Noisebridge'
00:56:30 <Jafet> `fetch http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/38f6b5503e1b/bin/y
00:56:33 <HackEgo> 2013-04-14 00:56:32 URL:http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/38f6b5503e1b/bin/y [183/183] -> "y" [1]
00:56:43 <kmc> `run printf '#!/bin/bash\nsha1sum "$@" | tr a-z n-za-m' > bin/shachaf1sum && chmod +x bin/shachaf1sum
00:56:52 <kmc> `run echo '"hi"' | shachaf1sum
00:56:53 <HackEgo> 51091s1p8p2q0s7rq39s412p927p23rq41493328 -
00:56:56 <Jafet> `run chmod +x y && mov {bin/,}y && ./y hi
00:57:00 <HackEgo> bash: mov: command not found
00:57:05 <Jafet> `run chmod +x y && mv {bin/,}y && y hi
00:57:09 <HackEgo> bash: y: command not found
00:57:15 <kmc> `run ln -s /bin/mv bin/mov
00:57:25 <HackEgo> mov: missing destination file operand after `zig' \ Try `mov --help' for more information.
00:57:26 <ion> Btw, tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
00:57:40 <kmc> that's much harder to prononuce
00:58:07 <ion> Also, UUObash
00:58:41 <Jafet> `run mv {bin/,}y && y hi
00:58:43 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/y': No such file or directory
00:58:53 <Jafet> `run mv {,bin/}y && y hi
00:58:57 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/y: cannot execute binary file
00:59:09 <Jafet> I should probably stop using at&t syntax
00:59:10 <oerjan> "Mongolian is written vertically. The Uyghur script and its descendants—Mongolian, Oirat Clear, Manchu, and Buryat—are the only vertical scripts written from left to right. This developed because the Uyghurs rotated their Sogdian-derived script, originally written right to left, 90 degrees counterclockwise to emulate Chinese writing, but without changing the relative orientation of the letters."
00:59:27 <Jafet> No wait, mv uses at&t syntax
00:59:46 <shachaf> That would be a good hash function.
00:59:57 <shachaf> http://assets.amuniversal.com/ec106b7c250a102d94d7001438c0f03b
01:00:00 <shachaf> http://assets.amuniversal.com/47a7a97c250c102d94d7001438c0f03b
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01:00:18 <copumpkin> kmc: oh I work with someone who you know vaguely
01:00:39 <Bike> oerjan: empires cause strange things
01:00:45 <oerjan> <kmc> [...] and then some of them got sued when what they built was approximately 100x uglier <-- :(
01:01:44 <Bike> oh, sorry, i misrepresented the mufti earlier
01:01:52 <kmc> copumpkin: who's that
01:02:00 <Bike> he didn't say the earth was flat, he took issue with a university saying it rotated and orbits the sun
01:02:11 <shachaf> kmc: twist, it's copumpkin
01:02:17 <kmc> also the elevated stations were just cool looking http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig16-27.jpg
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01:02:26 <kmc> the extant ones in the outer boroughs don't look like that
01:02:29 <kmc> (also the one in manhattan)
01:02:35 <kmc> they're all hella dilapidated
01:03:09 <Bike> man that's hella swanky though
01:03:16 <oerjan> <Bike> oerjan: valerian? <-- french space comic with lots of aliens and stuff
01:03:21 <kmc> i stayed in a tall hotel building in chicago and i could look down on the el loop and it was like my own miniature train set :3
01:03:27 <Bike> oh those crazy french comics
01:03:33 <kmc> preëmption and coöperation
01:03:56 <shachaf> do you expect me to coöperate?!
01:04:06 <Bike> "Treatise on the textual and rational proofs of the rotation of the sun and the motionlessness of the earth and the possibility of ascension to other planets" ha, ha
01:04:23 <Bike> i wonder if anyone's translated this, it could be fun to read
01:05:27 <Bike> oh he said it was ok to kill people who said the sun didn't move (nobody tell him about the galactic center0 that's less fun
01:05:37 <Bike> (you can't tell him he's dead now, pbuh)
01:06:07 <shachaf> Did she say the galactic center? Tell 'er I don't even know the galactic!
01:06:38 <kmc> shachaf...................................................................
01:07:31 <Bike> "Our exchange operates with hot data sets, completely in-memory.
01:07:32 <Bike> We have algorithms optimized for order execution speed and parallelization."
01:07:48 <kmc> bitcoinscale
01:07:59 <Bike> "our technology is secured by state of the art techniques such as OS-less deployment"
01:08:23 <shachaf> http://bex.io/images/feature01.png
01:08:28 <shachaf> that's the "security" picture
01:08:46 <Bike> psychic three-eyed soviet aliens to secure your bitcoins
01:09:04 <shachaf> "We are builders" http://bex.io/images/feature04.png
01:09:07 <elliott> Bike: i always read pbuh as like
01:09:18 <Jafet> They're probably more trustworthy than oracle bdb.
01:09:20 <elliott> like damn nobody thinks much of that mohammad guy
01:09:21 <kmc> shachaf: do the celebrate crayftsmanshipp
01:10:01 <Bike> elliott: me too >_>
01:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> who the fuck even celebrated craftsmanship in the first place
01:10:49 <Bike> skilled labor unions
01:11:02 <kmc> copumpkin: no
01:11:26 <copumpkin> oh well he said he vaguely knew who you were, perhaps it wasn't mutual :)
01:11:33 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: it entered my lexicon of things to mock via https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/bonsai
01:11:39 <kmc> "Fast, elegant full-text search that celebrates your craftsmanship."
01:11:43 <kmc> also the word 'your' used to not be there
01:11:50 <kmc> copumpkin: hm, ok
01:11:53 <kmc> did he say how
01:11:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> Did she say the galactic center? Tell 'er I don't even know the galactic! <-- would you like to use your free non-swat now?
01:12:00 <kmc> i'm bad with names and people and stuff
01:12:08 <kmc> what years? what house(s)?
01:12:10 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought I already used it before.
01:12:25 <shachaf> Labor union? Is that like a bitcoin mining pool, but for pregnancies?
01:12:29 <copumpkin> kmc: not sure, sorry :/ I know it intersected your time there but probably not the same year, since he's a bit older
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01:13:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: uh you can't be older than kmc
01:13:13 <shachaf> kmc is literally the oldest person in the universe
01:13:36 <kmc> when 13 billion years you reach...
01:14:17 <copumpkin> …you start being able to pronounce miuaf?
01:14:30 <kmc> it's just the initials of my blog
01:14:31 <shachaf> I have no trouble pronouncing miuaf.
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01:14:33 <kmc> i'm bad at naming stuff
01:14:42 <Bike> wait so was kmc conceived at woodstock
01:14:44 <shachaf> Hey, I told you about that acronym.
01:14:59 <kmc> yesssssss Bike you are on top of my mythos
01:15:01 <shachaf> I mean I told kmc about it.
01:15:22 <Bike> kmc: please, call it a cosmogeny, it deserves it
01:15:35 <kmc> that's a five dollar word if I ever heard one
01:15:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22362
01:15:53 <kmc> This article is about scientific theories of the origin of the universe. For mythical explanations, see Creation myth. For the Björk song, see Crystalline (song). For The Metal Machine Trio album, see The Creation of the Universe (album).
01:15:54 <elliott> miuaf is pronounced by meowing and then saying f
01:16:05 <Bike> kmc: that about sums it up
01:16:10 <kmc> itt Metal Machine Music
01:16:14 <shachaf> wow y'all're a bunch of ENGLISH SPEAKERS with no sense for PHONETICS
01:16:22 <Bike> metal machine music is the best shit ever
01:16:35 <shachaf> miuaf is pronounced: mi -- u -- af
01:16:39 <kmc> 'Metal Machine Music is generally considered to be either a joke, a grudging fulfillment of a contractual obligation, or an early example of noise music'
01:16:48 <Bike> kmc: have you actually listened to it it's fucking great
01:16:56 <Bike> it's literally just dumping feedback into a mic
01:16:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
01:17:11 <kmc> Helter Skelter 5 months ago
01:17:12 <kmc> still better than Nickelback
01:17:24 <Bike> i mean i listen to actual noise music and i still think it's ridiculous
01:18:27 <kmc> lou reed is a strange loop
01:19:35 <elliott> i should listen to metal machine music
01:20:09 <elliott> That same year, Reed announced his plans to re-release Metal Machine Music in remastered form.[3]
01:20:10 <kmc> apparently lou reed was going to play at coachella?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? but didn't
01:20:13 <kmc> same with The Rolling Stones
01:20:49 <Bike> if you listen to that you should also listen to zappa fyi
01:20:58 <elliott> Lou Reed never performed Metal Machine Music onstage until March, 2002, when he collaborated with an avant-garde classical ensemble at the MaerzMusik festival in Berlin, Germany. The 10-member group Zeitkratzer performed the original album with Reed in a new arrangement featuring classical string, wind, piano, and accordion.[11]
01:21:01 <shachaf> i've never heard of lou reed "am i a disnohor to this channel"
01:21:03 <Bike> have you ever seen a man play the bicycle
01:21:25 <shachaf> i always thought "the rolling stones" was a book by heinlein
01:21:54 <nooodl> Bike: can you explain noise music to me... i don't "get it"
01:22:16 <shachaf> nooodl: can you explain the secret channel to me. . . . . .
01:22:17 <Bike> nooodl: basically http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ztNOCjleqA
01:22:56 <pikhq_> nooodl: Well, you see, you maximize entropy.
01:23:05 <elliott> Bike: i think i can't be bothered with zappa as a sort of maximally lame protest against everyone else who knows anything in the universe liking zappa
01:23:20 <kmc> itt elliott takes a stand
01:23:34 <mnoqy> shachaf: shshhhh shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
01:23:35 <Bike> elliott: yeah i don't like listen to zappa regularly even
01:23:47 <Bike> i just like that one time when he was like 19 he appeared on TV in a suit and played musical bicycle
01:23:47 <kmc> http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig2-6.jpg the two guys in the train are v. pissed that they had to take their hats off
01:24:07 <Bike> kmc: what the hell is that car.
01:24:08 <shachaf> elliott: i don't know zappa
01:24:19 <kmc> i think it's a 'pneumatic train'
01:24:23 <nooodl> it looks like it has a face on it
01:24:56 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALfG9ftQorA also noise music
01:24:58 <elliott> i should probably listen to actual noise music
01:25:06 <Bike> spoiler there are probably "noise purists" who wouldn't like me for calling this noise
01:25:10 <elliott> instead of just things taht sort of toe the line sometimes
01:26:18 <Phantom_Hoover> all i know about zappa is that his daughter is called moon unit
01:26:44 <shachaf> to be frank, i know everything about zappa
01:26:53 * pikhq_ knows literally nothing about noise music.
01:27:07 <mnoqy> envious????? bet u wish u were called moon unit
01:27:19 <shachaf> mnoqy: am i called moon unit
01:27:33 <oerjan> `run echo 'I think you might mean !logs' >wisdom/log
01:27:36 <shachaf> from now on call me moon unit
01:28:03 <shachaf> `run echo 'I think you might mean !logs' | rainbow
01:28:05 <HackEgo> I think you might mean !logs
01:28:08 <shachaf> `run echo 'I think you might mean !logs' | rainbow > wisdom/logs
01:28:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: come on moon unit is pretty much the best name imaginable
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01:30:31 <Bike> fasdf. RYOJI IKEDA
01:30:56 <Bike> LISTEN TO RYOJI IKEDA YOU ASDFUASDFBIU9E
01:32:01 <pikhq_> doushite ryoji ikeda kikanakute ha ikenai no
01:32:37 <Bike> sorry i don't speak jive
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01:38:57 <oerjan> @tell ThatOtherPerson <ThatOtherPerson> I've never really understood why Europe and Asia are considered to be separate continents <-- i think it's hysterical raisins. back when the ancients divided the known world into three parts russia was like barbarian wilderness, man
01:39:17 <Bike> continents are kind of silly anyway
01:39:32 <oerjan> just say no to plate tectonics
01:40:06 <oerjan> Bike: let's just use "islands of unusual size" instead.
01:40:30 <Fiora> plates need to stop drifting, they need to stay the course and stop flip flopping
01:40:55 <oerjan> Fiora: actually i haven't heard much about plates flip flopping. thank god.
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01:42:29 <Bike> continents are pretty good at staying on courses i think
01:42:54 <pikhq_> Such is the power of intertia.
01:43:02 <oerjan> i mean, not like flipping pancakes. although i'm sure it would be cool to watch.
01:43:34 <oerjan> australia, sunny side down
01:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought the urals represented some sort of reasonable tectonic boundary
01:45:30 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: well so do the appalachians
01:45:41 * ion flips America
01:46:45 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: http://geology.com/plate-tectonics.jpg welp.
01:47:03 <Bike> logically this means kamchatka is american now
01:47:43 <pikhq_> And Hawaii is a really small continent.
01:48:22 <Bike> hawaii just takes over the whole of oceania
01:49:04 <Bike> hm, i should find a map with all the boundaries. probably that's not really possible but hey
01:49:47 <oerjan> i didn't know most of the atlantic was considered part of the continental plates
01:50:11 <shachaf> is there a channel that's like all the other channels on freenode except good
01:50:20 <pikhq_> shachaf: Welcome to it!
01:50:23 <Bike> oerjan: Yeah, there's that whole gaping maw of the earth in the middle, you may recall.
01:50:34 <shachaf> pikhq_: Did you miss the bit where #esoteric is awful?
01:51:21 <oerjan> Bike: i sort of had got the idea that the mid-atlantic split had new oceanic plates on each side
01:51:47 <Bike> well you were close
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01:54:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1;
01:55:23 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
01:55:24 <olsner> hmm, `? bothers giving an exit code? how polite
01:58:14 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
01:58:42 <Bike> what the hell is ‼.
01:59:15 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/topic" =/topic1" =/' bin/'?'
01:59:26 <HackEgo> Ǐuݖ7. \ ԡ')or_2嘎Be#yNIq967~C$6/HiE5m\tGjfڅe)Anm}2K(4 \ ɓUttWz3ę+eJTmax/Ts|NX~#5~܅L~]w)B\>f$IfF||J=V/ϧ,J;.r9A">Ocҭp^PʾyUpk][vSN \ B.&L9Ȃ0.$wjcLaK(Nf8:
01:59:33 <shachaf> oerjan..............................................................
01:59:37 <shachaf> that was meant to be that way
01:59:58 <shachaf> oerjan more like makesthingsworsjan
02:00:06 <oerjan> well feel free to revert that.
02:00:57 <nooodl> ‼ is a haskell operator hth
02:01:18 <shachaf> ‼ is the cast-to-boolean operator hth
02:01:28 <olsner> what's "this elision thing"?
02:01:32 <pikhq_> Gotta love cast-to-bool.
02:01:58 <pikhq_> foo*=!!bar; fuck branches, man!
02:02:54 <kmc> itt we are programming GPUs in 2006
02:03:15 <nooodl> it's even better if you pretend *=!! is one operator
02:04:55 <ion> `run gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!*b; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:04:56 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `"%d\n",' \ bash: -c: line 0: `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!*b; printf ("%d\n", a);'
02:05:33 -!- constant has changed nick to variabl.
02:05:34 -!- variabl has changed nick to variable.
02:06:33 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!*b; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:06:36 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.9uSs9JsT/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.9uSs9JsT/command.c:19: error: invalid type argument of ‘unary *’ (have ‘int’)
02:06:46 <nooodl> oh god. now i'm imagining the *...* circumfix operator
02:06:58 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!(*b); printf ("%d\n", a);
02:07:00 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.FTGcl7lg/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.FTGcl7lg/command.c:19: error: invalid type argument of ‘unary *’ (have ‘int’)
02:07:02 <pikhq_> `gccrun int a = 42, *b=&a; a *=!!*b; printf("%d\n", a);
02:07:09 <oerjan> stop this, or y'all'll be translating lens to C
02:07:16 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!&b; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:07:24 <kmc> we stand today on the precipice
02:07:30 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!&++b; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:07:32 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.h3E93cP2/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.h3E93cP2/command.c:19: error: lvalue required as unary ‘&’ operand
02:08:03 <pikhq_> And BTW, &b ain't an lvalue either.
02:08:09 <nooodl> `gccrun int *p; p=3; printf("%d\n", *p); *p*=3; printf("%d\n", *p);
02:08:12 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.4GBYxEBW/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.4GBYxEBW/command.c:19: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast \ Segmentation fault
02:08:26 <nooodl> yeah i pretty much knew that would segfault
02:08:48 <nooodl> jeez i need to sleeeep
02:09:19 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!*&b; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:09:22 <olsner> `gccrun int *p = &p; printf("%d\n", *p); *p*=3; printf("%d\n", *p);
02:09:25 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.7YcAFDgX/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.7YcAFDgX/command.c:19: warning: initialization from incompatible pointer type \ Segmentation fault
02:09:31 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!*&*&b; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:09:51 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!++*&*&b; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:10:00 <nooodl> maybe malloc a thingy and then do a thingy
02:10:51 <kmc> C life lessons
02:11:00 <ion> `gccrun int a = 42, b = 42; a*=!!++0[&*&b]; printf ("%d\n", a);
02:11:21 <kmc> `gccrun while(1){void*p=malloc(1);printf("%p ",p);}
02:11:24 <HackEgo> 0x601010 0x601030 0x601050 0x601070 0x601090 0x6010b0 0x6010d0 0x6010f0 0x601110 0x601130 0x601150 0x601170 0x601190 0x6011b0 0x6011d0 0x6011f0 0x601210 0x601230 0x601250 0x601270 0x601290 0x6012b0 0x6012d0 0x6012f0 0x601310 0x601330 0x601350 0x601370 0x601390 0x6013b0 0x6013d0 0x6013f0 0x601410 0x601430 0x601450 0x601470 0x601490 0x6014b0 0x6014d0
02:11:36 <nooodl> ah yes, the *=!!++0[&*&] operator
02:11:50 <kmc> itt i am a genius because i can write c codes that work the first time
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02:12:41 -!- Tod-Autojoined has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:12:43 <zzo38> I think other people can, too
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02:12:45 <ion> `gccrun char *a = malloc(1); a[0x20] = 'z'; char *b = malloc(1); printf("%c\n", b);
02:13:04 <olsner> kmc: if you did that all the time you could probably make money out of it
02:13:05 <ion> `gccrun char *a = malloc(1); a[0x20] = 'z'; char *b = malloc(1); printf("%p %p %c\n", a, b, *b);
02:13:06 <pikhq_> `gccrun for(;;){void*p=malloc(1));puts(p);}
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02:13:08 <HackEgo> /tmp/gccrun.RTLXIOxG/command.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/gccrun.RTLXIOxG/command.c:19: error: expected ‘,’ or ‘;’ before ‘)’ token
02:13:20 <pikhq_> `gccrun for(;;){void*p=malloc(1);puts(p);}
02:14:22 <ion> `gccrun ((char *)malloc(1))[0x20] = 'z'; char *b = malloc(1); printf("%p %c\n", b, *b);
02:16:04 <ion> `gccrun ((char *)malloc(1))[0x20] = 'z'; printf("%c\n", *(char *)malloc(1));
02:16:17 <kmc> also why did I even declare an intermeditae variable there?!?!?!?!? life is meaningless toil
02:16:37 <kmc> `gccrun while(1){printf("%p ",malloc(1));}
02:16:40 <HackEgo> 0x601010 0x601030 0x601050 0x601070 0x601090 0x6010b0 0x6010d0 0x6010f0 0x601110 0x601130 0x601150 0x601170 0x601190 0x6011b0 0x6011d0 0x6011f0 0x601210 0x601230 0x601250 0x601270 0x601290 0x6012b0 0x6012d0 0x6012f0 0x601310 0x601330 0x601350 0x601370 0x601390 0x6013b0 0x6013d0 0x6013f0 0x601410 0x601430 0x601450 0x601470 0x601490 0x6014b0 0x6014d0
02:16:42 <kmc> `gccrun while(1)printf("%p ",malloc(1));
02:16:44 <HackEgo> 0x601010 0x601030 0x601050 0x601070 0x601090 0x6010b0 0x6010d0 0x6010f0 0x601110 0x601130 0x601150 0x601170 0x601190 0x6011b0 0x6011d0 0x6011f0 0x601210 0x601230 0x601250 0x601270 0x601290 0x6012b0 0x6012d0 0x6012f0 0x601310 0x601330 0x601350 0x601370 0x601390 0x6013b0 0x6013d0 0x6013f0 0x601410 0x601430 0x601450 0x601470 0x601490 0x6014b0 0x6014d0
02:16:45 <kmc> hi variable!!
02:16:45 <olsner> `gccrun ((char *)malloc(1))[0x20] = 'z'; printf("%c\n", *(char *)malloc);
02:17:02 <kmc> is malloc(0) allowed to return the same address every time or no? inquiring minds want to know
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02:17:14 <kmc> (but can't be arsed to read ISO 9899)
02:17:49 <olsner> man malloc should give you a summary of the relevant standards?
02:17:51 <olsner> (but probably the union of 9899 and posix, so potentially the wrong answer anyway)
02:18:13 <ion> `gccrun ((char**)malloc(0))[0x20] = "hello world"; printf("%s\n", *(char**)malloc(0));
02:18:28 <kmc> > text "Segmentation fault"
02:18:30 <olsner> "If size is 0, then malloc() returns either NULL, or a unique pointer value that can later be successfully passed to free()."
02:18:31 <Bike> what did i walk into
02:18:32 <pikhq_> kmc: malloc(0) may either return a valid pointer or NULL.
02:18:35 <ion> `gccrun ((char**)malloc(1))[0x20] = "hello world"; printf("%s\n", *(char**)malloc(1));
02:18:40 <pikhq_> Well, "unique", not really "valid".
02:18:43 <olsner> I wonder which sense of "unique" they mean
02:19:03 <kmc> Muistialueen ylitys
02:19:19 <pikhq_> olsner: Does not compare equal to any other pointer.
02:19:28 <elliott> is it unique across all calls though
02:19:31 <elliott> or only across one given call
02:19:34 <kmc> Naruszenie ochrony pamięci
02:19:43 <variable> the space requested is zero, the behavior is implementation-defined: either a null pointer is returned, or the behavior is as if the size were some nonzero value, except that the returned pointer shall not be used to access an object.
02:19:47 <zzo38> As far as I am concerned, it would make sense that malloc(0) should be allowed to return 0 if free(0) is allowed, but it doesn't have to return 0; if free(0) is not allowed then malloc(0) is not allowed to be 0; this is what would make sense to me.
02:20:02 <variable> kmc: so yes, it may return the same value every time
02:20:04 <ion> Muistialueen ylitys seems to imply that the accessed memory was above allocated memory.
02:20:11 <Bike> wait what does free(0) have to do with anything
02:20:14 <pikhq_> If I'm reading the POSIX-speak right, it will not compare equal with any pointer returned by the allocator.
02:20:21 <kmc> itt we are polish segfaults
02:20:24 <elliott> variable: malloc(1) isn't allowed to return the same value every time!
02:20:28 <elliott> unless you freed in-between
02:20:29 <pikhq_> zzo38: free(NULL); is explicitly permitted.
02:20:37 <Bike> kmc: polish segfaults on the dance floor
02:20:38 <elliott> that quote seems to say to me that it may _not_
02:20:39 <kmc> oh man i could fry and eat a WHOLE KIELBASA right now
02:20:45 <elliott> "the behavior is as if the size were some nonzero value"
02:20:48 <pikhq_> variable: But only if that's NULL.
02:20:52 <shachaf> elliott: In which case it's still not really "the same value" in any observable way, is it?
02:20:54 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, I know that, but I mean hypothetically if it were not explicitly permitted.
02:21:03 <Bike> ok are there situations in which you'd want to malloc(0)
02:21:09 <elliott> shachaf: can you access the numeric value of a pointer after you free it? don't know
02:21:12 <variable> elliott: "or the behavior is as if the size were some nonzero value," I guess is your concern?
02:21:21 <elliott> I accept that if it is NULL it can return NULL every time
02:21:24 <kmc> related question: is sizeof(struct foo) guaranteed to be greater than zero
02:21:26 <shachaf> elliott: You can't even check if it's NULL.
02:21:39 <shachaf> If I remember correctly they don't agree on that.
02:21:41 <elliott> but if it's not, I believe it must be distinct every time, assuming you never free anything
02:21:42 <variable> elliott: I accept also that if it returns not NULL it must returm unique values
02:21:43 <kmc> related question: how much buggy code is there that happens to work on inputs "foo" and "bar"
02:21:44 <Bike> kmc: i' actually curious about empty structs >_>
02:21:51 <pikhq_> Bike: Generally if you're computing a size, it's slightly easier to *not* special case size 0.
02:21:55 <kmc> shachaf: yeah I'm pretty sure it's at least 1 in C++, but I don't know about C
02:22:00 <elliott> so what are the respective standards being quoted
02:22:05 <olsner> Bike: most commonly used when you consider it better to spend a day arguing about malloc(0) instead of adding an if in the right place
02:22:07 <kmc> ISO 9899 ain't nothin' to fuck wit'
02:22:15 <variable> elliott: N1570 Committee Draft — April 12, 2011 ISO/IEC 9899:201x
02:22:19 <zzo38> I think in GCC sizeof(struct foo) can be zero, but not in standard C.
02:22:23 <variable> elliott: I read this cover-cover over the summer :)
02:22:23 <Bike> olsner: quite common among programmers
02:22:39 <Bike> that sounds incredibly boring
02:22:57 <Bike> OK so speaking of that I need to talk about Darwin for a second.
02:23:25 <Bike> See his last book, it's about mold. Mold and earthworms. How earthworms produce mold and how mold influences natural history etc etc.
02:23:32 <Bike> needless to say it is a really goddamn boring book
02:23:45 <elliott> kmc: iirc the answer is yes re: sizeof
02:23:53 <Bike> but darwin was so popular that everybody bought it anyway
02:23:54 <kmc> which was yes
02:24:03 <Bike> so you had like thousands of victorian housewives reading about mold
02:24:15 <Bike> and sending letters to darwin about their own observations of mold in the garden
02:24:20 <elliott> did victorian housewives like, actually care about darwin
02:24:24 <elliott> it seems like a hard thing to care about really
02:24:26 <Bike> yes. it's baffling
02:24:43 <Bike> i've read this book, it's boring as shit. it has tables of which direction worms pull leaves into their burrows in
02:24:51 <variable> The contents are the same as the Standard C library header <stdlib.h>, with the following changes:
02:24:52 <Bike> it sold thousands of copies in its first week
02:25:31 <variable> and does not change anyting w.r.t. malloc(0)
02:26:56 <kmc> Bike: haha
02:27:09 <kmc> itt we are victorian housewives
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02:29:08 <Bike> relatedly it's really weird how britain has a bunch of roman shit laying around in it
02:29:35 <Bike> you have like four walls
02:29:41 <olsner> I have several walls, they are also pretty dull
02:30:55 <kmc> "walls worked for hadrian and ariel sharon"
02:31:25 <Bike> seriously it's like "hey here's this wall from four billion years ago. its foundations go twenty feet down"
02:31:34 <Bike> ("now let me investigate the impact of worms on this depth")
02:32:27 <elliott> i am thinking of the hadrian wall, prolly it would be less dull if half of it wasn't stolen because i guess people in the past were stricken by brick poverty
02:32:39 <kmc> scotland -_-
02:33:15 <elliott> i cannot imagine it stopping anyone really
02:33:18 <shachaf> What should I do with pollyanna@gmail.com?
02:33:23 <Bike> well thanks to the brick poverty no one could make a step to walk over it
02:33:25 <Bike> think this through.
02:33:39 -!- kmc has set topic: it's always better on holiday | am i rye? 'course i am! | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:33:50 <kmc> elliott: horses
02:34:12 <olsner> I've seen horses jump on tv, they can probably jump in scotland too
02:34:21 <elliott> kmc: you could just like throw the horses over
02:34:48 <elliott> American author George R. R. Martin has acknowledged that Hadrian's Wall was the inspiration for The Wall in his bestselling series A Song of Ice and Fire.[19]
02:34:51 <kmc> olsner: those are pro horses
02:35:06 <Bike> so uh i thought the hadrian wall was in italy like the aurelian walls are
02:35:10 <kmc> what about roger waters
02:35:36 <olsner> but if I could choose, I'd probably invade the countries without walls first
02:36:05 <kmc> itt we start a land war in asia
02:36:19 <Bike> you know something weird about that
02:36:32 <Bike> two of the most successful conquerors in world history built everything on land wars in asia
02:36:40 <Bike> like... what's going on there. explain THAT, aphorism.
02:36:45 <kmc> khan and...?
02:36:56 <olsner> was that before or after the wall(s) in china?
02:37:16 <Bike> aka "khan two: kill harder"
02:37:25 <kmc> elliott: IAm the premier of China, AMA
02:37:33 <oerjan> <Bike> so uh i thought the hadrian wall was in italy like the aurelian walls are <-- the roman empire was fucking big hth
02:38:08 <oerjan> itt we are considering banning kmc for overusing itt
02:38:48 <shachaf> itt http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcbsk0O7MD1rqbdjwo1_500.jpg
02:38:56 <Bike> oh i guess there's also like the entire history of russia
02:38:57 <oerjan> but are afraid of the precedence set
02:39:04 <Bike> like, they didn't just start with siberia, people
02:39:10 <Gregor> `addquote <olsner> I've seen horses jump on tv, they can probably jump in scotland too
02:39:14 <HackEgo> 1027) <olsner> I've seen horses jump on tv, they can probably jump in scotland too
02:39:22 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think "swatworthy??"
02:39:30 <olsner> Bike: what *did* they start with?
02:39:37 <kmc> Bike: how did i never know about Timur
02:39:41 <Bike> olsner: being lit on fire by mongols mostly
02:39:48 <Bike> kmc: you may have heard of "Tamerlane"
02:40:01 <Bike> but uh well he was turkish
02:40:08 <Bike> or uzbek i forget
02:40:12 <Bike> not exactly European is what i'm sayin'
02:40:28 <kmc> neither was ghengis khan......
02:40:37 <Bike> Yeah, but something Marco Polo.
02:40:44 <lambdabot> *** "avuncular" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:40:44 <lambdabot> adj 1: resembling a uncle in kindness or indulgence
02:40:46 <oerjan> alexander also did pretty well in asia hth
02:40:48 <kmc> "Timur ordered that every soldier should return with at least two severed human heads to show him"
02:40:51 <kmc> classy move
02:41:13 <Bike> You should read about the French nearly teaming up with Timur against, I forget, probably the ottomans or some crap
02:41:38 <kmc> "they believe he was saving Christianity from the Turkish Empire in the Middle East"
02:41:45 <kmc> but he was a muslim................
02:41:52 <Bike> medieval europeans were
02:41:58 <Bike> kind of really fucking out of it, all around
02:42:37 <Bike> it's a place that actually forgot christianity existed in africa for god's sake
02:42:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think "swatworthy??" <-- well, i don't want to encourage cousin' in the channel...
02:42:46 <Bike> maybe they were all just stoned out of their minds
02:43:16 <kmc> amanita muscaria
02:43:24 <Bike> "the shitty drug"
02:43:32 <Bike> that's right though all the good drugs were asian too
02:43:35 <Bike> man europe fucking sucked
02:43:40 <kmc> no potatoes
02:43:48 <kmc> or tomatoes or hot peppers
02:43:53 <shachaf> Bike: the good drugs were asian?
02:44:05 <Bike> opiates would be the obvious
02:44:12 <kmc> it's funny how all of the quintessentially 'old world' cuisine was impossible to make before 1500
02:44:15 <Bike> whatever coffee's made out of
02:44:54 <olsner> or where is coffee from again? I'm thinking south america
02:44:59 <kmc> more like قهوة
02:45:14 <shachaf> help my terminal is rendering that ltr! !!!!
02:45:32 <Bike> "Coffee cultivation first took place in southern Arabia;[4] the earliest credible evidence of coffee-drinking appears in the middle of the 15th century in the Sufi shrines of Yemen.[4]"
02:45:32 <kmc> shachaf: your terminal should check its privilege
02:45:36 <kmc> i think there's an ECMA-48 code for that
02:45:56 <Bike> 78: contemplate privileged status of terminals in the post-tty era
02:46:21 <shachaf> i set it to white-on-black does that affect anything
02:47:00 <kmc> the white man and the red hand
02:47:26 <kmc> 'Coffee became more widely accepted after it was deemed a Christian beverage by Pope Clement VIII in 1600'
02:47:30 <oerjan> kmc: at least europe had beer i think
02:47:31 <kmc> 'hey mr pope can we drink coffee'
02:47:33 <kmc> 'sure whatever'
02:47:49 <elliott> man imagine being that guy
02:47:52 <elliott> do you think he tasted coffee to check
02:47:59 <kmc> 'upon tasting it he instead declared that, "This devil's drink is so delicious...we should cheat the devil by baptizing it."'
02:48:03 <kmc> great logic
02:48:18 <elliott> that is better than any made up story i was about to tell
02:48:22 <kmc> 'The year often cited is 1600. It is not clear whether this is a true story, but it may have been found amusing at the time.[4]'
02:48:41 <elliott> i like how that works for basically every sin you want to do
02:48:42 <kmc> itt: all jokes have already been made hundreds of years ago
02:48:46 <Bike> kmc: you know about the pope and crossbows right
02:48:53 <Bike> well he banned them
02:48:56 <Bike> back in the 1200s
02:49:04 <shachaf> elliott: some sins are kind of unpleasant aren't they
02:49:09 <shachaf> help i don't really know what a sin is
02:49:09 <Bike> the man takin away mah guns
02:49:23 <Bike> it's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a channel
02:49:36 <Bike> kmc: ok do you know about the pope and geese
02:50:14 <Bike> ok well there's this kind of goose called a "barnacle goose" because back in the day they thought they spawned by falling off of grown barnacles
02:50:26 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> that is better than any made up story i was about to tell
02:50:27 <kmc> i've heard of that
02:50:30 <HackEgo> 1028) <elliott> that is better than any made up story i was about to tell
02:50:31 <kmc> it makes approx. 0 sense
02:50:32 <Bike> and as the story goes the pope said these geese were okay to eat during lent
02:50:40 <Bike> because they weren't born of animal or w/e
02:50:51 <elliott> typed that as porn of barnacles at first
02:51:08 <Bike> Barnacles have the biggest penises relative to their body size of any animal.
02:51:17 <doesthiswork> (I mean they made the connection to geese because goose barnicles have necks)
02:52:02 <HackEgo> 550) <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, any organisation called the Scottish Defence League should be beating up English people, what other point would there be?
02:52:13 <HackEgo> 179) <elliott> quintopia: that's offensive, i was in a mirror accident and now my second half is a permanent mirror <elliott> typing is kind of difficult
02:52:14 <HackEgo> 530) <oklopol> king is something women are better at than men
02:52:14 <HackEgo> 534) <monqy> in the past few minutes I tried remembering what my dream last night was, but instead remembered I didn't sleep
02:52:14 <HackEgo> 276) <lament> elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity
02:52:22 <Bike> elliott: I think 550 is what Hadrian's wall is for.
02:52:28 <Bike> who's lament. why is lament
02:52:32 <Bike> i lament lament
02:55:26 <kmc> dude not only do I have clean, drinkable water piped directly into my house, but it's so cheap that I can afford to fill up a big bowl with clean, drinkable water, take a shit in it, and then use more clean drinkable water to flush it away
02:56:00 <kmc> i am so insanely rich
02:56:10 <kmc> this is like lighting a cigar with a $100 bill
02:56:40 <shachaf> it becomes a bit less clean/drinkable between the two steps
02:56:46 <kmc> yes shachaf
02:56:49 <olsner> how do you light a cigar with clean drinkable water?
02:56:54 <Bike> shachaf has uncovered the joke
02:56:58 <kmc> olsner: something something hydrogen
02:57:34 <shachaf> In the US they don't even talk about conserving water, do they?
02:57:44 <kmc> they do in the west
02:57:48 <kmc> californee and such
02:58:55 <olsner> would you gain anything from setting up a second system of unpotable water for that kind of use?
02:59:04 <kmc> olsner: some buildings have that
02:59:07 <kmc> but it's not super common
02:59:15 <kmc> i think it's more something you do to show off how green you are
02:59:19 <kmc> rather than actually worthwhile
02:59:26 <kmc> Stata center at MIT has it
02:59:35 <kmc> "grey water"
02:59:37 <pikhq_> Or if you're in a region where potable water is actually relatively hard to come by.
02:59:52 <pikhq_> There's not much of that in the US.
03:00:04 <shachaf> there are so many stoners here that it's very easy to come by
03:00:20 <kmc> flush yr toilet w/ bongwater
03:00:22 <olsner> pikhq_: if you don't have potable water in the first place, no point in having two systems
03:00:33 <Jafet> `run echo -ne '\x7fELF\x02\x01\x01\0H\x8bt$\x10\xeb\x19\0\x02\0>\0\x01\0\0\0\x08\0\x01\0\0\0\0\08\0\0\0\0\0\0\0H\xff\xc7H\x85\xf6u<H\x89\xe6\xeb\x1b\08\0\x01\0\0\0\x05\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x01\0\0\0\0\0f\xc7\x06y\x0a\xeb\x11\0\x86\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\x86\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\xb2\x02\xeb\x13H\x89\xf2\x8a\x0aH\xff\xc2\x84\xc9u\xf7\xc6B\xff\x0aH)\xf2H\x89\xf8\x0f\x05\xeb\xf9' > bin/y && chmod +x bin/y && file bin/y
03:00:37 <HackEgo> bin/y: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1, statically linked, corrupted section header size
03:00:44 <kmc> my next band will be named \x7FELF
03:00:45 <HackEgo> yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yyy \ yy
03:00:49 <ion> flush your bong with toiletwater
03:00:53 <elliott> kmc: can i join that one too
03:01:00 <pikhq_> olsner: "Hard to come by" meaning "there's actually point in the effort".
03:01:21 <shachaf> the Excessive Use of that Newfangled, Abominable, Heathenish Liquor called COFFEE ...has...Eunucht our Husbands, and Crippled our more kind Gallants, that they are become as Impotent, as Age.
03:01:23 <Jafet> `run y 'I get up, I get down'
03:01:25 <HackEgo> I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get up, I get down \ I get
03:02:28 <Jafet> Unuchen wird geunucht
03:02:48 <shachaf> `run echo f0VMRgIBAQBIi3QkEOsZAAIAPgABAAAACAABAAAAAAA4AAAAAAAAAEj/x0iF9nU8SInm6xsAOAABAAAABQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAABmxwZ5CusRAIYAAAAAAAAAhgAAAAAAAACyAusTSInyigpI/8KEyXX3xkL/Ckgp8kiJ+A8F6/k= | base64 -d | cmp - bin/y
03:02:58 <kmc> +5, Use of "eunuch" as a verb
03:02:59 <elliott> kmc: is ye-s the band after that
03:03:33 <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band" would be a good name for a band
03:03:37 <kmc> what do all these bins do
03:03:43 <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation
03:04:02 <kmc> `addquote <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation
03:04:06 <HackEgo> 1029) <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation
03:04:33 <Bike> `run quote 1029; quote 1029
03:04:35 <HackEgo> 1029) <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation \ 1029) <shachaf> "would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation" would be a good name for a band when preceded by its quotation
03:05:09 <ais523> kmc: if you can get a band to be popular enough
03:05:13 <HackEgo> wc: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `wc --help' for more information.
03:05:36 <Jafet> ais523: won't work
03:05:42 <Jafet> Name it Main Page (disambiguation)
03:05:55 <ais523> Jafet: no, the idea would be to get Wikipedia to finally move the Main Page to Portal:Main
03:06:00 <ais523> I /almost/ convinced them to do that once
03:06:04 <ais523> basically, most of the main counterarguments are wrong
03:06:23 <ion> ITYM portal:main counterarguments
03:06:24 <ais523> quite a lot of people think it's technically impossible, even though it isn't
03:06:44 <ais523> I also tried to convince them to rename it to the null string, but apparently that /is/ technically impossible
03:07:22 <Jafet> Then, Valve announces Portal: Main
03:08:25 <ais523> Jafet: well the neat thing about that is that Wikipedia doesn't accept colons in names if they're preceded by a recognised namespace anyway
03:11:35 <zzo38> I think the space differs it though
03:11:36 <Jafet> Write a book named Talk
03:12:22 <zzo38> That seems is not a problem to write a book named Talk
03:12:25 <shachaf> "<something> (disambiguation)" would be a good name for a thing.
03:12:42 <shachaf> zzo38: what about, like, a book......... that was NAMED "book">...................................................................
03:12:43 <elliott> i think there is already a thing with (disambiguation) in the name
03:13:02 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98_(Disambiguation)
03:13:16 <zzo38> shachaf: Call the article "Book (book)" and then the article "Book" can link to "Book (disambiguation)" which then links to "Book (book)".
03:13:22 <shachaf> This article is about the Underoath album. For other uses of Ø, see Ø (disambiguation).
03:13:49 <elliott> now is the album named with (Disambiguation) or (disambiguation)
03:13:54 <zzo38> Well, but the capitalization is different.
03:14:12 <shachaf> Apparently it's a capital D. :-(
03:14:44 <elliott> name something Main Page (disambiguation)
03:14:48 <zzo38> If the lowercase is the correct spelling, the article should be named "O/ (disambiguation) (album)" or something like that (but use the proper slashed O; my client cannot send it)
03:14:49 <elliott> then you get to be at like
03:14:53 <elliott> Main Page (disambiguation) (book)
03:15:11 <shachaf> 20:05 <Jafet> Name it Main Page (disambiguation)
03:15:40 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:15:48 <zzo38> Did they put "(Disambiguation)" in the name of the album because of Wikipedia?
03:17:01 <elliott> surely one of these citations must have the info
03:17:58 <zzo38> No, it has nothing to do with Wikipedia.
03:18:07 <zzo38> (The talk page mentions this)
03:18:40 <shachaf> imo name something {{Citation needed}}
03:19:34 <zzo38> Didn't xkcd do that?
03:19:54 <shachaf> yes, xkcd has also bested elliott
03:20:04 <shachaf> besting elliott is not difficult
03:20:26 <zzo38> No, I mean naming something {{Citation needed}}
03:20:30 <HackEgo> 465) <itidus20> well, you have bested me <zzo38> itidus20: Yes.
03:20:34 <elliott> sorry you don't get my refs, shachaf
03:20:45 <shachaf> elliott: well, you have bested me
03:21:08 <oerjan> <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98_(Disambiguation) <-- heh when i click between the page and the disambiguation, IE doesn't add history either way...
03:21:26 <zzo38> Then IE is probably broken.
03:21:28 <kmc> ie...........
03:21:38 <shachaf> kmc: don't be browserist kmc
03:21:41 <kmc> itym ørjan
03:22:09 <elliott> i think ie is justb oring these days
03:22:42 <shachaf> elliott: btw i don't get your refs because "im 2 cool for this channel"
03:24:39 <shachaf> it shows like what, the it crowd?
03:24:55 <shachaf> i dont know alot of f f it shows. .
03:25:03 <oerjan> <zzo38> Then IE is probably broken. <-- yeah it messes up the history for all sorts of reasons
03:25:19 <oerjan> but this was unusually consistent
03:25:48 <shachaf> the joke is that everyone loves oerjan
03:25:55 <shachaf> except for people who used his free applicative
03:26:17 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
03:26:22 <shachaf> it turns out that this free applicative... has a higher total cost of ownership...
03:26:24 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:26:36 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
03:26:48 <oerjan> even _i_ haven't used my free applicative.
03:27:05 <shachaf> You wouldn't be able to stand the self-hate.
03:32:43 <kmc> We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.
03:32:52 <kmc> Pass it on.
03:36:19 <shachaf> ask not how kmc can help you, but how you can help kmc
03:37:13 <kmc> ….….….….….….….…
03:38:01 <Bike> GOMADWarrior: Stop that, please.
03:38:03 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjecYugTbIQ
03:38:47 <Bike> In #lisp. It's dumb. Stop.
03:38:54 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
03:38:56 <shachaf> Bike: Oh, GOMADWarrior is doing "that" in #lisp?
03:39:05 <shachaf> They got banned from #haskell for doing something.
03:39:10 <kmc> "trolling"
03:39:15 <Bike> Yeah, that thing.
03:40:07 <Bike> It's a dumb question.
03:40:13 <Bike> and "show me the AI programs" is forty years out of date.
03:40:26 <shachaf> is GOMADWarrior really doing "that"
03:40:42 <kmc> would you always, maybe sometimes, make it easy, take your time?
03:40:59 <GOMADWarrior> I'm tired of hearing about that I wanna know the reason
03:41:19 <Bike> GOMADWarrior: If they say to use lisp because you want to do AI, they know shit-all about lisp or AI and you can ignore that advice.
03:41:22 <elliott> GOMADWarrior: you joined #haskell on the 2nd of this month to say
03:41:27 <shachaf> GOMADWarrior: i disrecommend you lisp
03:41:28 <elliott> <GOMADWarrior> Friendly reminder that no one in the enterprise uses a deprecated language like haskell.
03:41:31 <elliott> you can stop pretending you're not a troll now!
03:41:40 <Bike> What's even the point, man.
03:41:43 <Bike> It's just so boring.
03:41:47 <kmc> elliott: you would be a good lawyer
03:41:52 <kmc> or is that 'barrister' on your side of the 'pond'
03:41:57 <Bike> Programming languages. Who gives a fuck about which language you use.
03:41:57 <shachaf> oh boy elliott is a lawyer now?
03:42:02 <Bike> Why would you bother.
03:42:06 <kmc> programming languages are like assholes
03:42:20 <Bike> kmc: did i ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk
03:42:52 <Bike> elliott: I like the idea that haskell is "deprecated" in favor of like, agda
03:43:10 <elliott> deprecated in favour of ruby, the hipper, newer language
03:43:23 <elliott> none of that stuffy 1990 academia
03:43:26 <Bike> looking for ruby ninjas with twelve years of haskell experience
03:43:27 <kmc> u know my plan to rebrand haskell
03:43:40 <elliott> haskelleton: like haskell but spookier
03:44:08 <kmc> it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a programming language discussion to produce useful insights
03:46:36 <kmc> in this thread we discuss linear feedback shift registers
03:46:51 <kmc> how are the maximal LFSR polynomials computed?
03:47:46 <kmc> proof by someone else did it
03:49:08 <shachaf> GOMADWarrior: Please don't.
03:49:48 <elliott> ps i think we may be being trolled
03:49:49 <GOMADWarrior> cuz im a noob wanting to learn my first language
03:49:53 <Bike> God dammit, are you a fucking teenager or something.
03:49:54 <elliott> by way of getting informed about this moronic trlling
03:49:59 <Bike> Just learn Python and go away.
03:50:00 <elliott> i am even participating by commenting on it!
03:50:01 <shachaf> Bike: Stop the ageism please. :-(
03:50:19 <Bike> shachaf: But, like, some of my best friends are teens. man.
03:50:27 <kmc> i'm with Bike (not re ageism tho)
03:50:28 <copumpkin> some of my best friends are assholes
03:51:16 <Bike> Ugh, I don't really know how to refer to the pattern of behavior I remember having as a high schooler and I've seen some adults have maybe without being an ass.
03:51:37 <kmc> 'undersocialized'
03:51:52 <kmc> itt we develop a modicum of respect for our fellow human beings
03:52:13 <shachaf> 20:50 <GOMADWarrior> anyone here?
03:52:24 <elliott> i am fairly sure i am the youngest person here right now and i don't really think it's necessarily problematic
03:52:25 <Bike> Nobody is here. We are all in your mind.
03:52:38 <elliott> like it's not "oh you're 13, you can't be very clever" or something ridiculous like that
03:52:39 <kmc> your mind is the scene of the crime
03:52:42 <Bike> elliott: "God dammit, are you fucking elliott or something"
03:52:53 <elliott> i can confirm that nobody is fucking me
03:53:03 <copumpkin> GOMADWarrior: no trolling of #scheme
03:53:37 <shachaf> elliott: It's 20:49 <Bike> God dammit, are you a fucking teenager or something.
03:53:43 <shachaf> That seems problematic to me.
03:54:24 <shachaf> Did you know I used to be 13. :-(
03:54:38 <elliott> i believe i am currently a teenager and you not in fact
03:55:18 <Bike> elliott: You should try fucking.
03:55:43 <kmc> fucking is p. cool
03:55:52 <elliott> shachaf: i already commented
03:55:59 <Bike> I mean, you don't have to if you don't want to, but it might be worth a shot.
03:56:26 <shachaf> elliott: Perhaps I'm more sensitive to ageism than you are by virtue of having been aged in that range for longer.
03:56:34 <elliott> that kind of behaviour and socialisation is something which is closely related to aging, i think any problem of ageism is more "X is Y years old, therefore"
03:57:28 * Bike sighs, tallies up another reason to think about what he says more
03:57:33 <kmc> yesterday i woke up sucking on a lemon
03:58:22 <kmc> age is tricky tho
03:58:23 <elliott> getting good points in the kmc game lately
03:59:00 <kmc> like, tech startups should be inclusive to women and racial minorities but it's really hard to see how they would not ever heavily skew torwards younger people
03:59:42 <Bike> Fran Allen should be convinced to start a startup staffed by (really) old school programmers.
04:00:00 <kmc> who's that
04:00:21 <Bike> first woman to win a turing prize
04:00:29 <elliott> like i think ageism is tangibly different to a lot of -isms
04:00:31 <Bike> for work on compilers in like the 50s or whatever
04:01:01 <elliott> since there is unambiguously a strong effect on behaviour and so on not inherently tied to cultural norms (though the form, pacing etc. of it can very well be)
04:01:55 <Bike> Well practically speaking. I think I probably shouldn't have said the thing. I should try to avoid dumb -> young since it's obviously linked to young -> dumb
04:01:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:02:04 <shachaf> 21:01 <GOMADWarrior> someone recommended me scheme for AI
04:02:22 <elliott> oerjan: hi can you "stop it" so we don't have to hear about it from shachaf any more
04:02:29 <elliott> it = GOMADWarrior's presence in this channel
04:02:35 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:06:01 <oerjan> it seems to me that you are asking me to ban someone here based on their behavior in another channel.
04:06:39 <GOMADWarrior> that doesn't make sense, it wouldn't stop him from using the other channel
04:06:41 <ais523> oerjan: well GOMADWarrior's behaviour here hasn't been particularly inspiring
04:06:47 <ais523> but it probably isn't banworthy yet
04:07:31 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
04:07:51 <elliott> ais523: this is not the first off-topic link he's linked in here.
04:08:03 <kmc> twilight of the mods
04:08:15 <ais523> elliott: have you linked more than two offtopic links in here? :)
04:08:20 <ais523> although I guess you do it less often
04:08:31 <elliott> ais523: hopefully i've said actually relevant things in here, and not just bragged about trolling other channels?
04:08:42 <ais523> don't worry, I'm not planning to ban you
04:08:47 <ais523> I'm just in the absurdist stage of tiredness
04:08:51 <elliott> there's also obvious lying
04:08:53 <elliott> like 04:49:49 <GOMADWarrior> cuz im a noob wanting to learn my first language
04:08:54 <shachaf> I've linked a few offtopic things in here.
04:08:59 <Sgeo> GOMADWarrior, it's like a BYOND game, except laggier!
04:09:06 <elliott> given that someone who doesn't know a language can, of course, not program a game in javascript
04:09:21 <ais523> elliott: well javascript hardly counts as a language :)
04:09:33 <Bike> kmc: frankly, i think discourse in #esoteric would be greatly improved if it was all sang in german
04:09:54 <ais523> GOMADWarrior: btw, are you planning to contribute usefully to the channel?
04:10:00 <shachaf> Bike: We'll surely avoid scurvy if we all eat an orange.
04:10:15 <ais523> GOMADWarrior: do you have some idea as to how?
04:10:23 <ais523> for instance, do you know what the channel's actually about? that's a start
04:10:25 <Bike> Sgeo: 21:07 < Sgeo> `slist ???
04:10:26 <kmc> Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
04:10:42 <Bike> Yeah, OK, let's let this guy in for sure
04:10:42 <ais523> do you know how to esolang
04:11:05 <kmc> Mood: feuertrunken
04:11:24 <Sgeo> Bike, did you, like, even look at the update?
04:11:27 * ais523 hopes it isn't a BF derivative
04:11:42 <Bike> Sgeo: well yeah i was just curious what was The Deal
04:11:59 <oerjan> kmc: Von neunundneunzig Luftballons, auf ihrem Weg zum Horizont
04:12:05 <kmc> lift your skinny fists like antennas to heaven
04:12:25 <Bike> Oh, that'll be a nice change from the Battles I've been listening to for theh last thirty hours
04:13:12 <Fiora> kmc: http://bex.io/ I I I don't I don't know
04:13:26 <elliott> GOMADWarrior: please don't
04:13:35 <elliott> (i know what the language is)
04:14:17 <elliott> Fiora: i don't get it, is this a joke
04:14:35 <Bike> Fiora: the idea of stock exchanges being built and sold is kinda great tho
04:14:38 <Bike> elliott: is it goatse
04:14:49 <kmc> Fiora: stupid future
04:15:04 <kmc> 'our technology is secured by state of the art techniques such as OS-less deployment'
04:15:14 <ais523> you can check if it's goatse by visiting the page with images turned off
04:15:27 <shachaf> Wouldn't you need images turned on to check?
04:16:01 <oerjan> hm now there's an idea, a webpage that tells you if another webpage contains goatse
04:16:06 <Fiora> kmc: I think it's serious
04:16:21 <kmc> halp what's a "software craftsmanship enthusiast"
04:16:35 <Fiora> someone who has a high software crafting skill
04:16:47 <Fiora> Software level 57 and they can craft Mithril Software
04:17:00 <ais523> shachaf: normally you can tell by context
04:17:15 <ais523> people don't normally disguise their goatses as, say, legitimate discussions of programming
04:17:17 <shachaf> ais523: I wouldn't know. I've always avoided it so far.
04:17:17 <ais523> just with added goatse
04:17:24 <ais523> shachaf: I've seen like the top 20 pixels of it
04:17:32 <ais523> because someone managed to get me to follow a link to it but the connection was really bad
04:17:34 <Bike> geez, it's just an ass
04:17:40 <ais523> and I realised it was goatse and closed the page before it loaded
04:17:43 <kmc> body { background-image: url(/goatse.jpg); }
04:17:45 <Bike> well there's also a penis
04:17:52 <Bike> some other limbs and stuff
04:17:54 <zzo38> oerjan: I don't know if a *webpage* having such things would be useful, but a JSON or XML service might, possibly.......
04:18:10 <kmc> it's an ass being operated outside the Absolute Maximum specifications
04:18:22 <ais523> zzo38: a webpage has the advantage that it's reasonably easy to view with typically available clients
04:18:40 <Fiora> (I'm sorry, I really have no idea <.<)
04:19:11 <zzo38> ais523: JSON and XML are also plain text though
04:19:29 <ais523> although XML is frequently unreadable despite being plaintext
04:19:38 <ais523> I've been staring at a lot of those sorts of data representations recently
04:19:49 <ais523> typically I need to use a viewer/editor with a search function to read the JSON
04:19:49 <shachaf> What makes something plain text?
04:20:07 <Bike> It works in that one plain text scheduling program
04:20:10 <kmc> being written in english
04:20:18 <GOMADWarrior> Magic, created by User:GOMADWarrior in 2013, is a language where you summon spirits, which are objects with a list of instructions, to do your bidding, with spells which are the recipes of the spirits.
04:21:05 <Bike> «The worst story I've heard about this is someone who got a job at a top 5 place on a really strong solo-authored paper which quickly got an R&R at Econometrica. In the next 6 years he revised 3 times only to have it be ultimately rejected the September of his tenure year and then he didn't get tenure»
04:21:08 <zzo38> I suppose it can be, but Mozilla will format XML files for viewing, and JavaScripts on webpages could be used to format the JSON or XML data into other formats too (XSLT can also be used).
04:33:42 <kmc> i am jack's smirking revenge
04:39:07 <shachaf> For some reason people think references to things make things better.
04:39:36 <kmc> add a layer of indirection
04:39:40 <elliott> what kind of keegan is he anyway
04:40:10 <Bike> shachaf: Do you mean references like Monty Python jokes?
04:40:33 <Bike> it's an in-group marker
04:40:37 <shachaf> People think things have merit *just* by virtue of being a reference to a thing they like.
04:40:41 <ion> C only has pointers like Monty Python jokes.
04:40:57 <Bike> it is pretty awful but it's a natural part of society
04:41:10 <shachaf> yes but what if we made it illegal
04:41:22 <Bike> Mad Max would be real.
04:41:26 <Fiora> void make(Joke &montyPython)
04:42:01 <Bike> But seriously, if it makes you feel better you can think of it in exaggerated sociology terms.
04:42:15 <shachaf> Do you see it more in more awful communities?
04:42:23 <Bike> It's saying "I have experienced similar media (or whatever) as you, we have some similarities, you should like me"
04:42:24 <kmc> what if i find that pop culture references are the best way to express my feelings? and whose fault is that?
04:42:46 <shachaf> what if i find that i don't have feelings?
04:43:31 -!- mnoqy has joined.
04:44:03 <Bike> Fiora: "Thanks, ants."
04:44:04 <elliott> it's like thanks fiora but with fewer letters
04:44:06 <elliott> have you watched Look Around You
04:44:07 <kmc> http://www.thanksants.com/Fiora
04:44:24 <Bike> If you haven't watched Look Around You you should watch Look Around You.
04:45:02 <Bike> Fiora: It's a British science television programme.
04:45:18 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2k9JwGpm1w
04:45:49 <Bike> Seriously, watch it, it's fantastic.
04:46:30 <shachaf> Fiora: You haven't watched Look Around You?
04:46:34 <shachaf> Fiora: You should watch it.
04:46:54 <Sgeo> I concur with the Look Around You recommendation.
04:47:00 <Bike> oh man i totally forgot about the soccer ball gag
04:47:12 <Sgeo> the Calcium one isn't the one with Thanks Ants though
04:47:25 <oerjan> i haven't watched Look Around You, and probably won't in a while, but i concur nevertheless.
04:47:34 <ion> fiora: Yeah, go and watch Look Around You. Do it now.
04:47:46 <Bike> Sgeo: it has the helvetica scenario though.
04:47:53 <Sgeo> Well, go watch season 1, at least. I don't know much about season 2.
04:47:53 <oerjan> ok i may have seen a little bit
04:48:10 <Sgeo> I've only seen one ep of season 2
04:48:40 <elliott> you've got your psilence and your "thanks, tchaikovsky"
04:48:43 <coppro> my sound in chrome is all scratchy and stuff
04:48:51 <Bike> oh is the tchaikovsky biti from season 2
04:48:59 <Bike> !! and the mouse song
04:49:05 <elliott> no that's season 1 i think
04:49:10 <Bike> i got the mp3 of that
04:49:10 <elliott> he returns in season 2 tho
04:49:12 <elliott> Bike: i hope you've seen machadynu
04:49:15 <kmc> if i could just leave my body for a night...
04:49:24 <Bike> i saw the whole music episode, anyway.
04:49:27 <elliott> the rap one whose name i forget. sexual interface.
04:49:29 <Bike> I think on Adult Swim.
04:49:34 <elliott> that was probably the best one of the second series i think
04:49:52 <Fiora> ;-; but do I have to
04:50:10 <Sgeo> That's the episode I've seen (Music 2000)
04:50:14 <elliott> Fiora: do you want to learn about calcium, maths, water, germs, ghosts, sulphur, music, iron and brain
04:51:39 <elliott> it's good! you don't have to watch it if you don't want to and wish to stay in the dark pit of unknowing eternally
04:51:44 <Bike> Fiora: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2k9JwGpm1w&t=5m40s this should give you the idea.
04:53:40 <Bike> keep watching to learn how calcium is produced
04:54:58 <Fiora> "because calcium perspires"
04:55:07 <Fiora> this is like. dada science education
04:55:36 <Bike> remember to study for your o-levels
04:55:59 <Fiora> "to prevent the possibility of helvetica"
04:57:12 -!- kmc has set topic: everyone's caught on to everything you do | am i rye? 'course i am! | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:59:46 <oerjan> kmc: oh dear, that means i have to kill you
05:00:07 <Fiora> this entire show is just an absolute whaaaatttttttttt XD
05:00:28 <elliott> how 'bout remove the second section
05:01:33 <shachaf> Fiora: you have to heat it to a temperature of 20,000 BC first
05:01:49 <Fiora> I I j ust asdlkfslaals
05:03:18 <Bike> you understand the recommendations, i hope
05:03:42 <shachaf> Fiora: btw elliott was kidding, you have to watch all of look around you
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05:04:15 <Fiora> I'm not sure I can stay sane with this
05:04:59 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
05:07:07 <shachaf> `run sed -i "s/You're/u/" wisdom/mad
05:07:15 <ais523> oerjan: incidentally, there's a quote from the Alice books at the start of every chapter of the old C-INTERCAL manual
05:07:19 <ais523> they do tend to generally fit
05:07:24 <kmc> GOMADWarrior: we, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators
05:08:18 * Sgeo has actually read that book a while ago
05:08:33 <kmc> Sgeo: good
05:08:42 <oerjan> selfish replicators r us
05:10:35 <GOMADWarrior> I'm thinking of making it an abstraction level higher
05:10:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
05:11:18 <HackEgo> <elliott> that is better than any made up story i was about to tell
05:11:58 * oerjan swats both shachaf and elliott -----###
05:13:08 <GOMADWarrior> I'll make Magic the reference language for AI development
05:13:46 <pikhq_> That seems remarkably cruel.
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05:16:32 <ais523> GOMADWarrior: fwiw, most of my AI programming has been in Perl
05:16:45 <ais523> something similar to but not exactly the same as Prolog would be useful, though
05:18:00 <Bike> GOMADWarrior: Stop, please. This is sad.
05:18:15 <kmc> all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be.......................................
05:18:54 <shachaf> Look out for the release of the new albumen.
05:19:05 <elliott> you're meant to say it's out now
05:19:19 <shachaf> elliott: No, you're meant to say that.
05:19:32 <ais523> GOMADWarrior: there already is a programming MMO, it's called StackOverflow
05:19:59 <kmc> U+13FA75 UPRIGHT PRISM SPREADING RIGHTWARDS
05:20:03 <pikhq_> GOMADWarrior: But if you feed them enough they asplode!
05:20:18 <ais523> pikhq_: well StackOverflow seems to be based around using MMO principles to encourage people to make good FAQs
05:20:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: numeric escape sequence out of range at character '5'
05:20:33 <kmc> itym bad faqs
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05:20:36 <ais523> github's more the facebook of programming, than the world of warcraft of programming
05:20:37 <shachaf> kmc: your unicode character is out of range of unicode characters
05:20:44 <kmc> shachaf: fuck tha police
05:20:46 <ais523> kmc: just because it's encouraging people to do that doesn't mean it works
05:21:27 <shachaf> Uh oh, time to clear some disk space in /home
05:21:42 <kmc> i go forwards, you go backwards, and somewhere we will meet
05:21:57 <kmc> shachaf has a separate partition for /home
05:22:01 <kmc> 1985 style
05:22:03 <elliott> kmc: i'm imagining you listening to the stupidest medley mashup ever
05:22:33 <shachaf> /dev/sda5 448G 415G 12G 98% /home
05:23:42 <ais523> shachaf: use df or a GUI alternative to figure out what's taking up the most space
05:23:52 <ais523> especially things that can easily be redownloaded, like tarballs, can normally be deleted safely
05:24:08 <ais523> I keep getting those two muddled
05:24:13 <pikhq_> No, ais523 uses a partition for each file.
05:24:25 <ais523> or if you have multiple unpacked gcc distributions
05:24:29 <ais523> you can normally do without them
05:25:09 <shachaf> I have ghc-7.4.1, 7.6.1, 7.6.2
05:25:15 <pikhq_> And then you lose your c->bf compiler.
05:25:22 <shachaf> Also several old ~/.cabal/*
05:25:29 <ais523> pikhq_: nah, I keep one as-working-as-it's-got-so-far copy of that around
05:25:35 <ais523> sometimes only in compressed form though
05:25:38 <ais523> two was overkill, though
05:25:52 <kmc> use fsv!!!!!!!!!!!!!
05:25:54 <ais523> also, yeah, you have a 448G disk
05:25:58 <pikhq_> ais523: I assume you've not made any progress on that in forever?
05:26:09 <pikhq_> 448G? I'm at a terabyte and out of space.
05:26:20 <ais523> /dev/sda5 75316544 65730596 5760072 92% /
05:26:28 <pikhq_> Course, I've got like 100G of *music*, so. :P
05:26:33 <ais523> although I'm cheating slightly, that's only half the physical disk
05:26:44 <ais523> the other half, a different partition, I use for storing really large things
05:26:55 <shachaf> Hey, look at this, 20G of strace logs
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05:27:09 <ais523> why do you have 20G of strace logs?
05:27:12 <ais523> I tend to save those in /tmp
05:27:18 <ais523> because it's rare I'll want to look at them again
05:27:22 <shachaf> Because I was trying to track something down.
05:27:38 <shachaf> It was hard to reproduce and I wanted to be able to look at the logs again.
05:27:49 <shachaf> I still haven't tracked it down...
05:27:52 <shachaf> I'll keep the logs for now.
05:29:41 * kmc has about 3900 GB of music, but only 17 GB on this laptop
05:30:23 <shachaf> I should get an external hard drive.
05:30:28 <shachaf> And, uh, do backups or somethin'.
05:31:50 <pikhq_> kmc: I think you added a zero.
05:32:09 <pikhq_> Or keep all your music in 32-bit 88.1 kHz WAVs.
05:32:23 <kmc> 3.8T media/pub/music/
05:32:40 <kmc> there are... probably some duplicates
05:32:44 <pikhq_> I doubt I've heard *of* that much music.
05:32:53 <Fiora> like wow even the touhou lossless collection is like 1.2tb and that's only if you get the lossless variant and it's like 3 months
05:33:24 <shachaf> kmc: that's a lot of lyrics to quote into the channel
05:33:34 <coppro> I have a wonderful 1TB hard drive in this machine
05:33:45 <pikhq_> That better be at least FLAC...
05:33:45 <coppro> (which is lots for a laptop)
05:33:51 <kmc> pikhq_: it's a mix
05:34:06 <kmc> some flac, some not flac
05:34:15 <pikhq_> Have you heard all of it?
05:34:32 <kmc> probably less than 1%
05:34:41 <pikhq_> Do you just... download music compulsively?
05:34:55 <kmc> i copied a few big servers full of music
05:39:30 <lambdabot> Well me 'earties, let's see what crawled out of the bung hole...
05:39:33 <Fiora> I wonder what the least compressed practical music format could be
05:39:41 <ais523> kmc: you do realise that that amount of piracy is enough to actually destroy the world's economy?
05:39:50 <ais523> like, the value of that music is actually larger than the amount of money in the entire world
05:39:52 <Fiora> he's caused trillions of dollars worth of damage!1!
05:39:57 <kmc> hahahahahaha
05:40:00 <kmc> yesssssssss
05:40:15 <pikhq_> Why that figure, you ask?
05:40:21 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital ?
05:40:22 <kmc> only one sub channel?!?!?
05:40:25 <pikhq_> That's enough to represent NTSC with PCM.
05:40:25 <kmc> are we animals?!?!?
05:40:34 <Fiora> pikhq_: ....... xD
05:41:03 <pikhq_> The mere idea of PCM NTSC is really silly. But hey, you could do it.
05:41:38 <ais523> "fed up of people treating audio as a mere side-channel on video, pikhq decided to make a point by doing the opposite"
05:41:58 <shachaf> OK, what's the easiest way to do du -s * | sort -n including hidden files?
05:42:04 <pikhq_> ais523: PCM doesn't realy refer to audio, it just refers to a way of encoding a wave form.
05:42:19 <pikhq_> In principle you could represent most any analog signal using it...
05:42:22 <ais523> but decided to say the quote anyway because it was funny
05:42:28 <Fiora> pikhq_: you can compress audio with video too, right?
05:42:33 <Fiora> I remember seeing a thing about that, and why it was such a bad idea
05:42:42 <ais523> well it's not actually a quote, obviously
05:42:58 <pikhq_> Fiora: What, you mean compress audio with h.264 or something?
05:43:16 <pikhq_> I guess you could do that but it'd be hilariously awful.
05:43:20 <Fiora> just like, compress audio as video? I remember seeing a post on it and how bad it was
05:43:42 <kmc> do you remember, there was some PC hardware for doing backups to VHS tape
05:43:59 <kmc> it could store several GB on one tape, which at the time was just an insane amount of storage
05:44:09 <pikhq_> No, but I do remember that one used to store digital audio on VHS tape.
05:44:19 <pikhq_> And this is actually where 44.1 kHz comes from.
05:46:00 <pikhq_> Basically, then the only practical medium was video tape. And 44.1 kHz came because, in PAL, there were: 294 lines/field, 50 fields/second, and 3 samples/line.
05:47:12 <kmc> interesting
05:47:34 <pikhq_> Though I think that equipment was using 14 bit samples instead.
05:48:04 <kmc> that's a lot of bits
05:48:22 <pikhq_> Yeah, that gets you fairly acceptable dynamic range.
05:48:38 <pikhq_> CD's better sure, but with dither 14 bits is quite good.
05:50:31 <Fiora> that's... really amazing
05:50:45 <Fiora> so 44100 was just because digital audio started when storing audio on PAL VHS tapes?
05:51:24 <pikhq_> You would've gotten the same figure on NTSC as well, except that color slowed the signal down.
05:51:29 <kmc> that's awesome
05:51:51 <pikhq_> The sampling rate from NTSC is 44056 Hz. Which is 44100/1.001
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05:58:05 <ion> pikhq: Interesting, i didn’t know about the origin of 44100 Hz.
05:58:50 <pikhq_> It also happens to be large enough for all sounds that humans can hear, so I guess nobody's figured it needs changing. :)
05:59:23 <ion> Well, most humans. True audiophiles can tell 384 kHz sounds better.
05:59:58 <pikhq_> But only with iridium cables.
06:01:08 <ion> $4495 / 8 m. http://www.audioquest.com/ethernet/diamond
06:02:20 <pikhq_> Makes the bits so much rounder.
06:07:00 <coppro> see, I might buy that amount of cable engineering *for analog audio*
06:07:28 <pikhq_> It's probably ridiculous even then. But at least improving the cable there can *do something*.
06:07:52 <coppro> I'm reminded of this thing that exists
06:08:34 <pikhq_> Even lower level than that.
06:08:43 <pikhq_> Ethernet frames are checksummed as well. :)
06:08:53 <pikhq_> A packet either gets there or it doesn't.
06:08:54 <kmc> itt UDP-Lite
06:09:24 <shachaf> GoogleWifi corrupts packets. :-(
06:09:39 <coppro> way to complain about free internet
06:09:57 <ion> shachaf: They should have used AudioQuest cables.
06:10:34 <pikhq_> Probably also a tank of AudioQuest air.
06:10:56 <coppro> and made sure that they used a Monster power bar to filter out distortion from the power lines
06:11:02 <pikhq_> Electrically neutral oxygen molecules make the signal have much less interference.
06:13:26 <kmc> #epaworldproblems
06:13:49 <shachaf> There's no GooglewiFi in EPA
06:20:24 <shachaf> /dev/sda5 448G 370G 57G 87% /home
06:21:01 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, wait, that's me with the 448G.
06:21:32 <shachaf> ais523: I have a bunch of DVDs ripped to directories. That's probably the biggest thing.
06:21:33 <kmc> xn--rjan-kn7o
06:21:53 <shachaf> Or maybe lossless music, though not kmcesque amounts.
06:24:42 <zzo38> I wonder how difficult it might be to compile MechaniQue programs into Z-machine?
06:32:33 <fizzie> /dev/mapper/vg_raid-home 798G 611G 187G 77% /home
06:32:44 <fizzie> (Why are we peeking at other people's /homes?)
06:35:59 <shachaf> fizzie: uh the game was "peeking at shachaf's /home"
06:36:06 <shachaf> are you shachaf(idon't think so!!)!
06:36:34 <fizzie> I didn't see the NAME OF THE GAME.
06:36:51 <Fiora> geez I really need to clean up my /home
06:38:02 <shachaf> cp /bin/rm /home/fiora/cleanup
06:38:14 <shachaf> I almost typed "/home/Fiora".
06:38:24 <shachaf> But usernames start with a lowercase letter!
06:38:29 <shachaf> Therefore you should /nick fiora
06:39:12 <Fiora> but I'm a proper noun :<
06:39:44 <shachaf> You are not a noun, proper or otherwise.
06:39:45 <pikhq_> No, there are only improper nouns.
06:39:53 <pikhq_> Propriety is overrated.
06:41:42 <kmc> i seem to be a verb
06:41:54 <Fiora> Bike is also capitalized...
06:44:20 <lambdabot> *** "bike" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
06:44:24 <lambdabot> n 1: a motor vehicle with two wheels and a strong frame [syn:
06:44:28 <lambdabot> 2: a wheeled vehicle that has two wheels and is moved by foot
06:44:31 <shachaf> Look, my nick used to be Shachaf.
06:44:36 <shachaf> Then I figured out that it was wrong.
06:44:42 <fizzie> I think you can be capitalized if you're not some kind of silly imaginary person, like most of us.
06:44:59 * Fiora looks down at herself, doesn't seem very imaginary
06:45:11 <shachaf> Fiora: pseudonymous ~ imaginary
06:45:16 <fizzie> Fiora: If you look closely, you can see right through yourself. How's that for imaginary?
06:45:21 <fizzie> (I used to be "Fizzle", back when.)
06:45:32 <shachaf> Fiora: If Bike told you to jump off the roof, would you do it?
06:45:36 * Lymia is clearly a Lymia :<
06:46:06 <Fiora> and I'm not imaginary
06:46:14 <Fiora> I have like. a physical body and everything
06:46:15 <shachaf> You're complex. Can we settle on that?
06:46:29 <kmc> ~duck bike
06:47:34 <fizzie> A duck bike would be a ridiculous contraption.
06:48:12 <Fiora> does that mean I'm like, part imaginary and part real?
06:49:32 <shachaf> It means you're complicated.
06:50:21 <Fiora> I'm wearing clothes. I don't think imaginary people can wear clothes.
06:52:17 <zzo38> Proper names are capitalized (except e. e. cummings), but on IRC you can use whatever capitalization of nicknames you want to, and on UNIX computers it start with a lowercase letter, so that it can check in case you use a terminal with only uppercase or not.
06:52:56 <Fiora> how can I tell imaginaryness then :<
06:53:05 <shachaf> zzo38: E. E. Cummings is capitaliszed too.
06:53:08 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._E._Cummings
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06:53:47 <Fiora> kmc: http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/232.pdf wooooww this is cool
06:53:55 <zzo38> Well, it is sometimes written in lowercase.
06:54:06 <Fiora> it's an ECDSA timing attack
06:54:31 <shachaf> hey how come kmc gets the cool papers he's not even here
06:55:17 <shachaf> Why don't papers have dates?
06:55:39 <fizzie> They're timeless and eternal?
06:55:56 <shachaf> Now I'm not sure whether I'm mixing this up with the similarly-titled paper.
06:56:20 <Fiora> it's a paper where openssl supposedly uses a timing-attack-immune algorithm but a shortcut in the implementation opens up a hole
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07:19:39 <fizzie> "Compact fluorescent light bulbs are often criticized for being dim --" that's kind of rude!
07:20:31 <zzo38> It is true, I have some such light in kitchen and it is dim, but it is brighter after a few minutes.
07:20:50 <shachaf> you're part of the problem
07:20:53 <fizzie> Yes, dim and slow. But what about their feelings!
07:21:21 <shachaf> `addquote <fizzie> "Compact fluorescent light bulbs are often criticized for being dim --" that's kind of rude!
07:21:31 <HackEgo> 1030) <fizzie> "Compact fluorescent light bulbs are often criticized for being dim --" that's kind of rude!
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07:22:32 <zzo38> I don't care if it is rude. That is how it works. But perhaps it might be possible to improve it, and then it is not dim anymore, so then it would be better if it can be fixed, please.
07:22:36 <fizzie> ("Few kelvins short of incandescent" is in the family of sayings like "few fries short of a Happy Meal" and so on, right?)
07:23:28 <fizzie> They make "fast-start" ("instant-on") CFLs too.
07:23:44 <zzo38> I have seen those sayings called "fulldeckisms"
07:28:03 <zzo38> There is also LED. LED is excellent for indicator light, picture, programmable signs, etc, but in my opinion LED is not good for general purpose lighting, because it is not white.
07:29:23 <zzo38> I also think LED is not so good for Christmas because it doesn't look so nice.
07:29:42 <zzo38> But other than this, I recommend to use LED when possible; it is better than other lights.
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07:36:07 <fizzie> I recommend to use LED for reasons of principle; all the other (viable) methods sound a) silly and b) less... quantic.
07:37:54 <fizzie> Besides, I understand the white isn't so bad these days either. They do it (at least) with phosphors, which takes some of that efficiency, but still.
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08:03:23 <fizzie> "LED bulbs consume a sea of the island, only about one-seventh of electricity, light bulbs, or what the climate will decrease the load of the seventh." Oh, Google Translate...
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08:04:16 <fizzie> (There was a link to a Finnish newspaper article on led Christmas tree lights in Turku. Took me three paragraphs to realize it was a Google Translate link.)
08:05:10 <fizzie> "Traditional country number one and six, the Turku Cathedral Christmas tree this holiday season is experiencing profound changes, as it may be led." I just thought they were... I don't know, writing weirdly. Making some kind of a led/led pun.
08:06:27 <fizzie> (fi:kuusi is both en:six and en:spruce. And I guess also en:"your moon".)
08:08:21 <ais523> fizzie: the last meaning being basically never used?
08:09:06 <fizzie> ais523: I guess it could be used in a compound like "your birth moon", but even that sounds quite rare.
08:09:13 <fizzie> Most people don't own moons in general.
08:09:28 <ais523> it'd be more likely to come up in a roleplaying game, I guess
08:12:18 <fizzie> Like English, we have a different word for "month" (kuukausi) and "moon" (kuu), so moons as a unit of time sounds more like a fantasy novel or some "new-age" whateverness.
08:13:25 <fizzie> But I think in the compound "syntymäkuusi" it could be an acceptable contraction of "your birth month", properly written as "syntymäkuukautesi".
08:13:48 <fizzie> There's 9 Google hits, and they're all about months of birth.
08:14:06 <fizzie> Or, no, a couple are about astrology and phase of moon at birth.
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08:21:00 <lambdabot> ThatOtherPerson: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:21:02 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
08:21:11 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 42m 15s ago: <ThatOtherPerson> I've never really understood why Europe and Asia are considered to be separate continents <-- i think it's hysterical raisins. back when the ancients
08:21:11 <lambdabot> divided the known world into three parts russia was like barbarian wilderness, man
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08:46:35 <Jafet> `run echo 'const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,1915091587,1224847546,2988404877,2953121539,251703868,2425393157,};'>q.c
08:46:52 <Jafet> `run gcc q.c -o q && ./q
08:46:59 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
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08:49:11 <Jafet> http://i.imgur.com/CrEYw.gif
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08:50:59 <Jafet> http://i.imgur.com/Mk76H.gif
08:51:04 <Jafet> Ok that kind of ruined it
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08:51:31 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:52:32 <ThatOtherPerson> <Jafet> `run echo 'const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,1915091587,1224847546,2988404877,2953121539,251703868,2425393157
08:52:34 <Jafet> No, not the robe and wizard hat kind
08:52:44 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
08:53:14 <Taneb> Is that a ridiculous quine
08:53:27 <ThatOtherPerson> Jafet: how, exactly, did you make main an array and get away with it?
08:53:37 <HackEgo> Binary files - and q differ
08:54:14 <Jafet> ThatOtherPerson: http://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender.c
08:54:21 <Jafet> "this is an old folk method"
08:54:40 <Taneb> (is that even remotely cross-platform?)
08:54:56 <Jafet> It's cross-platform to all amd linux machines, man
08:55:03 <Jafet> You might need 2.6+ or something
08:55:25 <ThatOtherPerson> "all amd linux machines" is more or less really just a single platform
08:55:34 <Taneb> What if I'm on an Intel Windows machine
08:56:09 <Jafet> Windows, where each syscall is one line of irc
08:57:05 <Fiora> Jafet: wait, that's... you can do that? XD
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08:57:21 <ThatOtherPerson> It makes sense, but in a "wait the universe is falling apart" sort of way
08:58:29 <HackEgo> mv: missing destination file operand after `q.c r.c' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
08:58:48 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access r.c: No such file or directory
08:58:59 <HackEgo> mv: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `mv --help' for more information.
08:59:12 <Taneb> In which Taneb shouldn't be allowed to use Linux
08:59:44 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
09:00:04 <Taneb> Okay, that rules out one way of making it totally lame
09:00:26 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
09:00:38 <Jafet> shachaf: ntwritefile takes like 800 arguments
09:00:59 <HackEgo> const int main[]={232,1230520576,3943032963,1852793621,1763734643,1830843502,1533962593,2105228637,826804795,1220607680,2370422665,826805616,252883666,3247000837,1221734733,186936461,738215366,1221459784,2336342065,3526445057,4148693683,818053363,1207981448,3229994495,4282968949,1220607685,2370367113,1208755284,84929065,1237516105,1225048451,191509
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09:01:46 <shachaf> Jafet: Oh, you mean doing the system call directly, rather than via the C API you're supposed to use?
09:02:08 <shachaf> The ABI is also very unstable, isn't it?
09:02:23 <Jafet> And before that, you probably need to load ntdll and sacrifice a chicken or whatever
09:03:17 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I think that sentence is three lines too long
09:03:24 <ThatOtherPerson> If you do, Microsoft will find out, hunt you down, and use your body for unnatural expirements.
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09:36:56 <Taneb> St Andrews is a town just a bit bigger than Hexham, with a major university and 7 golf courses
09:37:08 <Taneb> Hexham only has 2 golf courses and no university
09:44:46 <Taneb> That's your fault for living in the middle of a desert
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09:49:13 <shachaf> ion: I think asking once to see if someone is aware of their behaviour is reasonable.
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10:09:11 <Taneb> Haskell is really good for writing functions on one line
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12:19:35 <Taneb> For some purposes, that is true
12:19:43 <Taneb> However, for others, that is false.
12:19:58 <Taneb> It is less efficient, for example, to prepend an element to an array
12:21:38 <Jafet> Taneb: you just need to sew more tape onto the opposite end.
12:22:59 <shachaf> Jafet: So who are you ther than "Jafet"?
12:23:12 <shachaf> Do you exist elsewhere than IRC?
12:24:57 <Jafet> Do I exist in IRC?
12:25:12 <shachaf> I guess you filed a GHC bug report once.
12:26:15 <GOMADWarrior> I'm afraid of posting on forums about my language and ppl vandalize the page
12:26:19 <shachaf> You're probably not the Malaysian Jafet.
12:27:27 <Jafet> Huh, someone actually got around to that bug report.
12:28:19 <shachaf> Maybe you're the Australian Jafet.
12:29:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5054
12:30:40 <Jafet> I'll let you know when I find out.
12:36:00 <shachaf> That depends on what you're doing.
12:36:14 <Taneb> If you are naming a person, I'd say push
12:36:52 <shachaf> I don't know anyone named Insert or Push.
12:37:13 <shachaf> I suppose I've never heard of Insertkin, though. So Push wins.
12:38:18 <GOMADWarrior> you can either push list elem or insert list elem
12:38:19 <impomatic> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>]
12:38:37 <shachaf> ^bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
12:39:06 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
12:40:50 <Taneb> It occurs to me that, in addition to bitcoin and the human body, I have no idea how the internet works
12:41:24 <Taneb> shachaf, there are a lot of things that I have no idea how they work
12:41:42 <Jafet> `run echo 'short const main[]={-14520,448,0,18432,-14393,1,0,-29368,3893,0,18432,-15673,14,0,1295,184,0,-15616,25928,27756,8303,28535,27762,8548,10};'>hello.c && gcc hello.c -o hello && hello
12:42:03 <Taneb> How do you prove there are only 5 platonic solids
12:43:42 <Taneb> Oh, that makes sense
12:44:30 <shachaf> How do you prove that monoids are easy?
12:44:50 <GOMADWarrior> that is a brainfuck derivative, with varying numbers of a's r's and k's in fuark
12:45:25 <Taneb> GOMADWarrior, that sounds like an awful idea
12:45:46 <Taneb> shachaf, consider the case where monoids aren't easy
12:47:13 <Taneb> shachaf: INTUITIONISMIST!
12:47:55 <Taneb> shachaf, on another note, I think you may like this page from a recent Homestuck update: http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=008141
12:48:06 <shachaf> Taneb................................................................
12:48:50 <Taneb> Just click the link
12:49:00 <shachaf> why does it say THE END with an arrow
12:49:05 <shachaf> that's a "this is not the end arrow"
12:49:32 <Taneb> Nonetheless, I suspect `olist may be used properly before `slist is again
12:50:11 <Taneb> I couldn't get into it
12:50:36 <shachaf> I guess that's an OK place to start.
12:50:37 <Taneb> I stopped at some point when they were talking to some teenage orcs
12:50:52 <shachaf> Hmm, you should go past that.
12:51:20 <shachaf> It doesn't really get into the story until later.
12:52:42 <shachaf> Also now that `slist is done what can you do?
12:52:58 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you going to ICFP 2013?
12:53:18 <Taneb> It's slightly outside my travel range
12:53:48 <shachaf> Oh, I get it, it's the end of Act 6 Act 5
12:54:21 <GOMADWarrior> imagine a programming game that is also an mmo
12:54:40 <Taneb> shachaf, I will if you buy me plane ticketws
12:54:46 <Taneb> And also plane tickets
12:55:00 <Taneb> That will get me from Newcastle Airport to the airport closest to ICFP 2013
12:55:13 <Taneb> And also a hotel room for the duration
12:56:24 <shachaf> What if ICFP 2013 is held INSIDE NEWCASTLE AIRPOR?
12:56:38 <Taneb> THAT WOULD BE IDEAL
12:56:41 <Taneb> COULD YOU ARRANGE THAT PLEASE
12:57:58 <shachaf> What if the tickets were from London instead?
12:58:05 <shachaf> And also you bought them instead of me.
12:58:07 <Taneb> That would not be so ideal
12:58:42 <shachaf> But you've always wanted to go to Boston, right?
12:59:37 <Taneb> I've always wanted to eat
13:00:09 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy do you want go to boston and / or eat the bible
13:00:37 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy consider yourself warned the bible is not delicious so you better go to boston
13:01:16 <FireFly> guess you'll have to stay there for half a year, impomatic
13:01:24 <shachaf> impomatic: Who are you, anyway?
13:01:52 <impomatic> shachaf: http://about.me/john_metcalf
13:02:00 <shachaf> impomatic: Bostom NA is the only Bostom
13:03:33 <shachaf> Which Boston are you going to?
13:04:19 <impomatic> The original Boston! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston,_Lincolnshire
13:04:45 <shachaf> That URL would be better if it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston,_Lincolnshire
13:20:22 <Taneb> impomatic, shachaf has security issues
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13:30:28 <shachaf> I've never been in the USSR. :-(
13:31:30 <ais523> in soviet russia, what sees you is what gets you
13:31:59 <shachaf> `addquote <ais523> in soviet russia, what sees you is what gets you
13:32:03 <HackEgo> 1031) <ais523> in soviet russia, what sees you is what gets you
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13:56:38 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, how did the UCC thing go?
13:57:11 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: temporarily postponed, yet still in the back of my mind
13:57:21 <Taneb> How about the Lisp implementation
13:57:50 <Taneb> How about Python bindings for Galaxy?
13:58:35 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: how's your dcpu emulator written in Haskell coming along?
13:58:53 <Taneb> I realised I need to learn how to do graphics programming first
14:03:40 <tswett> Why did fungot produce a CTCP .. request/
14:03:41 <fungot> tswett: hi everyone. i just came up: fnord/ fnord/ ed/
14:05:31 <tswett> Taneb: a Platonic solid is determined entirely by the number of edges each face has and the number of faces at each vertex. Prove that the only values that produce polyhedra are (3, 3), (3, 4), (3, 5), (4, 3), and (5, 3).
14:06:39 <fizzie> Because ^J and ^M are filtered to . HTH HAND.
14:07:05 <fizzie> (One day I'll add the CTCP filter too.)
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14:23:24 <kmc> Fiora: cool! (re ECDSA timing attack)
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14:34:06 <kmc> unfortunately I don't know anything about elliptic curves or public key cryptography or maths :/
14:34:10 <kmc> but i will learn!
14:34:22 <kmc> shachaf: are you still doing the matasano crypto puzzles
14:35:36 <shachaf> If I manage to get home and/or sleep today then hopefully I can do them today.
14:35:40 <shachaf> Do they have puzzles about elliptic curves and things?
14:35:49 <kmc> probably, i haven't got to that yet
14:36:09 <kmc> still breaking bad uses of block ciphers
14:36:10 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, topologically, a torus is a torus (I think)
14:36:58 <shachaf> torus? they 'ardly touched us!
14:37:18 <kmc> you should see the other guy!
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14:43:45 <shachaf> `run >wisdom/torus echo 'Topologically, a torus is a torus. Taneb invented them.'
14:43:53 <shachaf> `run >wisdom/torus echo 'Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.'
14:44:12 <kmc> shell redirection at the beginning of the command
14:44:43 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
14:44:58 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
14:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> `run >>wisdom/d-module echo ' Possibly they are also a torus.'
14:45:56 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them. \ Possibly they are also a torus.
14:46:17 <shachaf> Leave it alone, Phantom_Hoover.
14:46:30 <shachaf> D-modules are not a torus.
14:46:56 <fizzie> But is it... as perfect as a d-module?
14:47:21 <kmc> it is a perfect... d-module!
14:47:37 <shachaf> does the d in d-module stand for ngevd
14:48:53 <Taneb> ...it stands for "differential"
14:49:15 <kmc> close enuf
14:50:04 <shachaf> Taneb: you should use /usr/bin/☭ to preprocess your ccc files
14:51:23 <shachaf> https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module_(mathematics)
14:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF_(%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%B1)
14:51:47 <shachaf> https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%84%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF_(%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%B1)
14:52:06 <kmc> simple.wp is simple language not simplified ideas hth
14:52:14 <kmc> something something sapir-whorf
14:52:27 <shachaf> Taneb is an algebra mogul.
14:54:01 <shachaf> help kmc is "playing the leave us hanging card"
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14:58:30 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom_Hoover: of course not, we live in a universe where pirates don't do anything
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15:02:05 <kmc> itt we teach HackEgo to mine bitcoins
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15:02:50 <fizzie> With a HackEgoMineProdder to make it keep going, to get around the timeouts?
15:03:00 <shachaf> copumpkin: I meant what you're doing that has it come up. :-)
15:03:21 <copumpkin> shachaf: experimenting with ideas to make (H)AMTs even more awesome in Haskell
15:03:28 <copumpkin> in ways that tibbe did not dream of
15:03:35 <copumpkin> I want a fucking AMT without the H
15:03:46 <shachaf> does tibbe dream of HHAMTs
15:04:01 <copumpkin> my AMT is way simpler than his HAMT
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15:04:05 <copumpkin> he has no fewer than five constructors on it
15:04:14 <HackEgo> --2013-04-14 15:04:13-- http://www.google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK \ Length: unspecified [text/html] \ Saving to: `index.html' \ \
15:04:18 <shachaf> Why is the non-Haskell world so hash-obsessed?
15:04:31 <kmc> i have one depressing theory shachaf
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15:04:36 <copumpkin> well, hashing is a decent way to cram non-integer things into an AMT
15:04:46 <HackEgo> <!doctype html><html itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/WebPage"><head><meta content="Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for." name="description"><meta content="noodp" name="robots"><meta itemprop="image" content
15:04:49 <kmc> which is that in C there is no code reuse; you rewrite all data structures from scratch for every project
15:04:50 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: There are limits, but you can do some things.
15:04:59 <copumpkin> I can split AMTs in log time and ask for first and last in log time
15:05:03 <kmc> and it's easier to write a half-decent hash table than to write a half-decent tree-shaped associative structure
15:05:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: git: not found
15:05:18 <copumpkin> and basically meaningless with the H
15:05:18 <fizzie> (Also it had been broken many times, I think?)
15:06:53 <ThatOtherPerson> `wget https://git-core.googlecode.com/files/git-1.8.2.1.tar.gz
15:06:54 <HackEgo> --2013-04-14 15:06:54-- https://git-core.googlecode.com/files/git-1.8.2.1.tar.gz \ Resolving git-core.googlecode.com... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `git-core.googlecode.com'
15:07:25 <kmc> curl | sudo sh erryday
15:08:15 <Taneb> @karma ThatOtherPerson
15:08:21 <HackEgo> 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \ 15:06:54++ \
15:08:23 <Taneb> @karma ThatOtherPerson
15:08:30 <lambdabot> Arr! Me ship be the biggest brig in the port!
15:09:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: Have you really reached a point where that sort of optimization makes sense?
15:10:05 <copumpkin> I'm just brainstorming to see what I could do to improve things, since in an ideal situation this stuff would get called pretty frequently
15:11:07 <copumpkin> I have some clever tricks up my sleeve to make these things awesome
15:12:30 <copumpkin> awesome *and* polymorphic, believe it or not
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15:13:30 <AnotherTest> Hm. I seem to be unable to cross-compile boost for windows :(
15:15:10 <nooodl> wow prefix ++ discrimination
15:15:57 <shachaf> that's because prefix ++ is the devil
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15:18:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: you finance people, always worrying about cash locality
15:20:54 <shachaf> Sometimes I forget that people pronounce the "ch" as a "k"
15:23:40 <shachaf> copumpkin: So are you coming to BayHac?
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15:25:52 <FreeFull> I like how you can make any Haskell program into a one-liner
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15:26:25 <FreeFull> By removing all newlines and adding in ;{} in the right places
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15:26:37 <Sgeo> What about top level defintions?
15:26:57 <Sgeo> Substituting in the bodies of those definitions might not work well when mixed with unsafePerformIO?
15:27:05 <Sgeo> Or can you do ;{} with those too?
15:27:20 <shachaf> You can do literally everything with ;{}, Sgeo
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15:30:16 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
15:30:50 <kmc> Sgeo: all the whitespace-dependent syntax in Haskell is just sugar for punctuation
15:30:55 <kmc> which is a really important property imo
15:31:35 <kmc> are there exceptions?
15:31:39 <kmc> if you're using CPP.......
15:31:54 <shachaf> In Soviet Russia, CCCP uses you!
15:32:25 <Taneb> shachaf, you already made that joke
15:32:42 <shachaf> Taneb: But kmc wasn't in that channel.
15:33:04 <shachaf> Yes, but you're invisible.
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15:33:53 <HackEgo> Daniel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:38:28 <shachaf> 08:36 <GOMADWarrior> what if there was a mmo game, a very cool one
15:38:29 <shachaf> 08:38 <GOMADWarrior> but it'd be in a browser
15:38:29 <shachaf> 08:38 <GOMADWarrior> with node.js
15:38:32 <shachaf> GOMADWarrior: Please stop trolling #scheme
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15:39:16 <kmc> so who has ops in #esoteric
15:39:19 <olsner> why is shachaf in #scheme?
15:39:40 <shachaf> kmc: oerjan and ais523 and fizzie(?)
15:39:55 <shachaf> and lament(who doesn't count; he can't even Cale)
15:40:54 <shachaf> you should get your freenode-staff buddy to beat up the ops
15:41:28 <fizzie> You have something against Aardappel!?
15:41:30 <fizzie> I don't know if cross-channel behaviour is sort of aggregatable, even if I'm on #scheme (not scheming, honest!) too. But it does sound kind of trolly.
15:41:56 <shachaf> well GOMADWarrior has been trolling all channels
15:42:04 <shachaf> but maybe it's part of the esoteirc spirit
15:42:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13990
15:42:49 <kmc> `pastalogs
15:42:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastalogs: not found
15:43:13 <shachaf> oerjan: "u'll have to pay me royalties"
15:43:13 <fizzie> Aardappel was here just the other day, the other day being the last of January of 2003.
15:44:38 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: THIS IS AN ESOTERIC IRC CHANNEL
15:45:20 -!- Mathnerd626 has joined.
15:45:30 <shachaf> When a nick expires and someone reregisters it, do they get to be op in all the places the nick was op before?
15:45:59 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:47:43 <fizzie> A piece of string just came out of my mouth. :/
15:48:52 <olsner> and here I thought everyone except Sgeo knew fairly well how to do the eating thing
15:49:14 <fizzie> They took out half (2/4) of my Wisdom Points -- in related news, I'm kinda even more stupid now -- and the other one was kind of deep, so they also sewed the hole shut; it's probably related.
15:49:52 <ais523> shachaf: ops are attached to the account, not the nick
15:52:14 -!- ais523 has quit.
15:53:53 <kmc> noooo ais523 come back your services are required
15:54:53 <kmc> 'you think node.js cant handle mmos?' is a pretty <protontorpedo> thing to say
15:56:37 <FireFly> Nobody does sectioning like that though
15:57:53 <fizzie> Blah blah @karma++ blah.
15:57:55 -!- mnoqy has joined.
15:59:04 <mnoqy> i agree with taneb
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15:59:56 <mnoqy> have you ever considered that !!maybe!! botspam is obnoxious and not good
16:00:27 <Sgeo> That maybe's on fire!
16:00:50 <Sgeo> /nick !!Sgeo!!
16:00:59 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to SgeoOnFire.
16:01:10 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:05:16 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
16:09:57 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2dtttF1ZH1r6fi0zo1_1280.jpg
16:12:37 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:12:50 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
16:13:08 <kmc> `stty size
16:15:11 -!- bengt_ has joined.
16:16:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15286
16:16:50 <olsner> I bet #osdev has a lot of bootspam
16:17:03 <fizzie> What kind of bots have they got?
16:17:09 <tswett> So elliott just set a new record for number of words used in a single utterance: three.
16:17:10 <olsner> "bet" ... it's probably pretty empty
16:17:13 <tswett> At least, as far as I can remember.
16:17:17 <tswett> He said, "more toes here".
16:17:54 <tswett> I'm pretty sure he knows that "more toes" is two words, though I'm not actually completely sure.
16:19:21 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
16:19:47 <tswett> This sentence came up when we were looking at a robotic dinosaur toy. I pointed at the toy's back right foot and said, "Here are his toes," and then he pointed at the back left foot and said, "Toes here."
16:20:23 <tswett> I pointed at its back right foot again and said, "He has more toes over here," and then he pointed at front left foot and said, "More toes here."
16:21:33 <olsner> tswett: is that elliott elliott or another elliott?
16:21:41 <tswett> elliott elliott, of course.
16:21:53 <tswett> He's my now-toddler nephew.
16:23:26 <fizzie> olsner: I was hoping they had some kind of an operating system development bot.
16:25:19 -!- Bike has joined.
16:26:39 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think about all the botspam?
16:26:40 <fungot> FireFly: hrm... i think it's somewhat nebulous. it is a p with a too short attention span... i'll try again from scratch! :) but chicken is free as in beer)
16:27:15 <olsner> hmm, somewhat nebulous, but chicken is free
16:27:37 <fizzie> fungot: Stop sounding that nebulous.
16:27:38 <fungot> fizzie: yeah, that occurred to me yesterday with a fnord to feed the cat. i'm sure. but you have to convert...
16:28:27 <FireFly> fungot: don't feed the cat with fnords
16:28:27 <fungot> FireFly: which if you is convincing which part of the language is named after the type of the continuation
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16:42:09 <kmc> GOMADWarrior: an insightful and original observation
16:42:14 -!- nollapiste has joined.
16:57:57 <elliott> so why is GOMADWarrior still here
16:58:05 <elliott> fizzie: hi can you fix this
16:58:51 <kmc> itt a monopoly on the legitimate use of coërcive force
16:59:36 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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16:59:56 <elliott> fizzie: re: <fizzie> I don't know if cross-channel behaviour is sort of aggregatable, even if I'm on #scheme (not scheming, honest!) too. But it does sound kind of trolly.
16:59:59 -!- Bike has joined.
17:00:11 <elliott> fizzie: there is also the part where he is telling us about which channels he plans to troll next and then spinning that out into more bullshit
17:02:36 -!- nollapiste has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:04:26 <mnoqy> let's get a direct answer
17:04:32 <mnoqy> GOMADWarrior: why are you here
17:04:44 <elliott> i think we already asked that one
17:05:08 <GOMADWarrior> you guys only complain about things i post on other channels
17:05:35 -!- Bike_ has joined.
17:05:58 <mnoqy> i can complain about that lisp syntax comment you made in here
17:06:03 <mnoqy> would that make you happy
17:07:12 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
17:07:14 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
17:07:51 <kmc> i could complain about all the bad suggestions for esolangs that you made and how you badgered us to talk about them when really they were not interesting at all
17:08:14 <elliott> why are we talking to this person seriously
17:08:30 <elliott> as if they are actually here to do anything other than fill some kind of pathetic hole with mildly irritating about 50 people because they have nothing better to do
17:08:34 <kmc> i'm just making small talk until a mod shows up...
17:08:36 <elliott> which i mean is clearly working regardless, but
17:08:51 <elliott> kmc: you seem to be operating under the assumption that trolls get banned from #esoteric :P
17:09:10 <mnoqy> it's happened before!
17:09:42 <elliott> i think every time a troll who isn't just like blatantly flooding has been banned it has involved pestering ops for a very long time
17:10:47 <Bike> well i'm just going to dive into my special little world where this is no person. thank goodness for /ignore
17:11:05 <elliott> fizzie: how loud do i have to make these pings for you to start being here
17:11:05 <kmc> here is no-where
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17:11:16 <elliott> fizzie: PIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING
17:11:33 <kmc> it's great how Ｉ is an entirely blank double wide cell in my terminal
17:11:35 <kmc> great font
17:14:09 <fizzie> I kinda-sorta don't like the idea of bannery just on grounds of other-channel stuff and the bad-languages-and-ordering-people-to-talk stupidity that did happen quite a while ago, but sure, if that's the consensus and there's nobody objecting...
17:14:11 <Bike> this hardly seems fizzy at all.
17:14:30 <elliott> fizzie: i don't really care about the bad languages
17:14:43 <elliott> 16:38:46 <GOMADWarrior> what's you're definition of trolling
17:14:45 <elliott> 16:39:06 <GOMADWarrior> you think node.js cant handle mmos?
17:14:50 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:14:57 <elliott> other stuff im too lazy to find
17:15:34 <elliott> 13:19:11 <GOMADWarrior> arrays are superior to linked lists
17:15:35 <elliott> 13:19:36 <GOMADWarrior> they are the ultimate data structure
17:15:41 <elliott> ps is he banned yet i am in backscroll
17:16:05 <mnoqy> are we sure this is a so-called “trolling„
17:16:11 <elliott> 04:41:48 <GOMADWarrior> i'm not always a troll
17:16:11 <elliott> 04:42:25 <GOMADWarrior> a language means a lot
17:16:11 <elliott> 04:48:25 <GOMADWarrior> i'll ask it in scheme
17:16:11 <elliott> 04:49:07 <shachaf> GOMADWarrior: Please don't.
17:16:11 <elliott> 04:49:33 <GOMADWarrior> i'll just ask what are the advantages of lisp
17:16:13 <elliott> 04:49:49 <GOMADWarrior> cuz im a noob wanting to learn my first language
17:16:16 <elliott> 04:51:59 <GOMADWarrior> no one on scheme :(
17:16:18 <elliott> 04:52:13 <shachaf> 20:50 <GOMADWarrior> anyone here?
17:16:21 <elliott> 04:53:03 <copumpkin> GOMADWarrior: no trolling of #scheme
17:16:23 <elliott> 05:02:04 <shachaf> 21:01 <GOMADWarrior> :P
17:16:26 <elliott> 05:02:04 <shachaf> 21:01 <GOMADWarrior> someone recommended me scheme for AI
17:16:28 <elliott> 05:02:07 <shachaf> GOMADWarrior: Stop it.
17:16:29 <Bike> it's like idolatry except with idiots
17:16:42 <fizzie> I suppose my trolling threshold is just abnormally high. But I guess I'm not hearing any dissenting voices, and it's not like any of this matters a bit.
17:16:51 <fizzie> Assuming I can manage the switches of this great IRC engine.
17:16:57 <elliott> imo op me and i'll handle it
17:17:00 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
17:17:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
17:17:22 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +b *!*@189.34.44.144.
17:17:26 <elliott> 30 years experience with irc, using irc clients
17:17:31 -!- fizzie has kicked GOMADWarrior GOMADWarrior.
17:17:33 <elliott> irc most valued professional
17:17:37 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
17:17:42 <elliott> administrator of highly esteemed website ''Esolang``
17:18:00 <fizzie> I don't know about these new-fangled IRC networks with "services", it all seems so strange to me.
17:18:13 <fizzie> You're going to take that other matter up with the Cabal.
17:18:35 <fizzie> s/ / have to / except in the version of sed that replaces the right thing.
17:19:08 <elliott> my campaign speech: if i am opped i will voice Gregor whenever necessary
17:19:29 <mnoqy> if im opped i will deop myself because i cant handle power
17:19:55 <Gregor> It is always necessary that I be +v-o
17:20:04 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: let's put it this way
17:20:09 <Taneb> If I'm opped, prior experience demonstrates that I will ban kmc because I cannot bear bears.
17:20:13 <Taneb> This is a good thing
17:20:19 <elliott> if Gregor was always voiced, we would have no way of knowing just how important Gregor being voiced is
17:20:25 <elliott> you must have darkness to have light
17:20:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
17:20:37 <elliott> here is a preliminary plan: I may set up a client script to voice Gregor at random intervals
17:20:49 <fftw> jconn: */ i.10
17:20:54 <elliott> isn't that the kind of guarantee you can appreciate
17:21:05 <elliott> i promise justful uncertainty and benign chaos
17:21:30 <elliott> i'm not saying that was my divinew ork
17:21:33 <elliott> but that was my divine work, vote for me
17:22:00 <Gregor> I feel like a whole new Gregor.
17:22:09 <olsner> what does it mean that someone is voiced?
17:22:19 <Gregor> olsner: Unless the channel is +m, nothing.
17:22:21 <elliott> olsner: it means everything in the world
17:22:27 <elliott> it means Gregor gets a + in front of his name for instance
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17:22:46 <fizzie> Voicing might also give an exemption for +q.
17:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> it means a new age, one which celebrates craftsmanship and that other thing kmc likes to mock
17:23:00 <mnoqy> ThatOtherPerson: um no lies please
17:23:02 <kmc> yes we can (voice Gregor)
17:23:09 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: people and/or concepts
17:23:17 * Gregor stands proudly, shining the little '+' button on his tunic.
17:23:34 <Gregor> ThatOtherPerson: Yeah, only ops can +v.
17:23:35 <elliott> voices can't voice other voices
17:23:42 <elliott> you need an op who KNOWS this stuff!!!!
17:23:43 <kmc> what about................................. half-ops
17:24:00 <ThatOtherPerson> elliott: I am voiced on another channel and I can voice anyone I like
17:24:06 <elliott> are you sure it's on freenode
17:24:10 <elliott> are you sure you're not half-opped.....
17:24:24 <elliott> probably you actually have op rights and have to voice thru chanserv
17:24:45 <mnoqy> or weird privilege level-messing
17:24:45 <ThatOtherPerson> No, if you have +v in chanserv you can voice people through chanserv
17:24:49 <mnoqy> i've done that thing before
17:25:03 <Fiora> kmc: I think the timing attack is basically just "well normally the classic timing attack takes advantage of the 'double and add' modular exponentiation algorithm, which is really vulnerable, but this one doesn't use that. but it still has the weakness that it ignores the first N zero bits of one of the numbers to be multiplied, which is a wonderful speed shortcut, but has a side effect of, erm, telling us how many zeroes there are
17:25:06 <mnoqy> channel where everyone gets voice? channel where everyone gets op? it can happen
17:25:35 <kmc> Fiora: I heard about a timing attack that exploited the fact that an IDIV instruction takes a variable amount of time
17:25:44 <elliott> channels were everyone is voiced/opped are weird
17:25:49 <elliott> especially if it's the former & there's no +m
17:25:50 <kmc> so even if you have no data-dependent control flow or memory accesses, you can get owned :/
17:25:54 <fizzie> According to the documentation, +v does exempt you from the "can't speak, can't change nicks on-channel" limitations of +b. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch that also applied to +q.
17:26:11 <elliott> fizzie: if I am opped I promise to +q Gregor for science.
17:26:26 <fizzie> I'm on quite a few channels where everyone is +o on the IRCnet side, but that's just practical.
17:26:31 <Fiora> that reminds me of the AES cache timing attack
17:26:33 <elliott> i will divert funding from the overfunded #esoteric military to this noble research
17:26:48 <Fiora> is IDIV actually variable time nowadays? geez I didn't think that was still true
17:26:57 <Bike> Fucking peaceniks.
17:27:00 <elliott> Fiora: timing attacks that depend on algorithms used in the CPU itself?
17:27:36 <kmc> Fiora: maybe it's not anymore
17:27:49 <kmc> i wonder if EC2's hypervisor has any mitigations against cross-VM cache side channels
17:28:10 <Fiora> well nowadays I think they just avoid table-based implementations?
17:28:34 <Fiora> http://shiftleft.org/papers/vector_aes/vector_aes.pdf <-- SSSE3 and altivec can be used to implement a shuffle-based AES that never touches a table
17:28:55 <Fiora> (nevermind, like, AES-NI)
17:30:26 <Fiora> http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~hovav/dist/aes_cache.pdf oh this looks cool
17:30:34 <Fiora> http://cr.yp.to/antiforgery/cachetiming-20050414.pdf
17:30:48 <Fiora> "This paper reports successful extraction of a complete AES key from a network
17:30:49 <Fiora> server on another computer.
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17:42:12 <Taneb> The BBC News UK news page seems to imply that Andrew Marr and Margaret Thatcher were students at the London School of Economics who were used by the BBC as human shields.
17:42:27 <Taneb> Andrew Marr barely survived, Thatcher wasn't so lucky
17:45:53 <lambdabot> Where d' all t' pirates come from?
17:48:38 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: arr map part yarr
17:58:44 <fizzie> I just learned the other day that Euler was born the same day (day-of-the-year, that is; not quite the very same day) as I. That's kind of nifty. I mean... Euler!
18:01:29 <Taneb> And I share a birthday with Tim McIlrath
18:01:47 <Fiora> I wonder if there were any interesting people on my birthday...
18:02:01 <fizzie> Fiora: I would wager a guess most days have at least a couple.
18:02:15 <fizzie> Wikipedia's "Month Numberofday" page is very good at finding them.
18:02:20 <Fiora> yeah, I was using that
18:02:26 <Fiora> I can't find anyone I recogni---- !!!
18:02:41 <Bike> yay, birthday paradox.
18:02:44 <fizzie> (Titanic also sunk on "my" day.)
18:03:04 <Bike> fizzie: was Euler born back when they used the Julian calendar?
18:03:22 <Jafet> Did you know that Jesus supposedly had the same birthday as Newton? Well, that's what some people say.
18:03:42 <Fiora> only miyazaki :< I guess I can go with that :3
18:06:30 <fizzie> Bike: "Adoption in Europe" subsection of the "Gregorian calendar" page is not all that easy to skim, but I guess 1707 makes it a "maybe not".
18:06:41 <elliott> is there a nice way to look these things up
18:07:15 <Bike> elliott: wikipedia's article on your birthdate.
18:07:48 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott's+birthday
18:07:52 <shachaf> can you believe they don't even have one
18:08:29 <elliott> i guess i have a respectable list
18:08:34 <fizzie> Fiora: I've heard that also post-birth events (and not just births) count, so you've got the discovery of Eris (the planet, that is), too.
18:08:45 <elliott> actually it is a pretty gigantic list
18:08:55 <elliott> fizzie: you mean the dwarf planet
18:09:15 <fizzie> I meant to write that.
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18:11:53 <shachaf> Gregor: did you invent the Gregorian calendar
18:13:48 <shachaf> Hmm, I was born on Thursday.
18:14:06 <shachaf> What exciting things happened on Thursday?
18:14:11 <Gregor> shachaf: When I have +v, I did.
18:14:15 <Gregor> shachaf: Without +v, I did not.
18:14:50 <shachaf> right now you seem to have +Gregor
18:15:21 <Gregor> That's the representation of +v, yes.
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18:16:12 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
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18:20:50 <fizzie> Fiora: (Also Umberto Eco and Marilyn Manson are kind of "household names" too, on the list with Miyazaki, if maybe not all that exciting... (But you did say "recognize". (Well, "recogni----".)))
18:21:09 <Bike> lisp-like syntax ;_;
18:21:20 <Taneb> shachaf, Thursday!?
18:21:24 <Taneb> That's the same day I was born on!
18:21:31 <fizzie> Bike: But that's TROLLING.
18:21:36 <shachaf> Taneb: let's be birthday buddies
18:21:49 <shachaf> who else wants to be my birthday buddy
18:22:17 <shachaf> you're my birthday buddy iff you were born on a day that whose name ends in a y
18:22:18 <Taneb> 7 hours after I was born, there was a TOTAL ECLIPSE OF THE SUN in South America
18:22:37 <fizzie> Taneb: Better than a TOTAL ECLIPSE OF THE HEART, I guess.
18:22:56 <SgeoOnFire> Aren't total eclipses not that rare? Maybe every two or three years?
18:23:10 <shachaf> when i was born there was a TOTAL ECLIPSE OF THE HEART of every humanoid within a radius of 2,500 km
18:23:15 <Taneb> SgeoOnFire, even less rare than that
18:23:55 <fizzie> They're kind of rare if you pick a random spot on the Earth, though.
18:23:57 <Taneb> There are 2 to 5 every year, I think
18:24:31 <fizzie> I remember really vaguely seeing the recent-ish one that you could see in Finland.
18:24:50 <Fiora> fizzie: I didn't recognize Umberto, I did find manson though
18:25:04 <Fiora> though I'm not sure he's exactly someone I'd want to be compared to -_-
18:26:33 <Fiora> together we can take it to the end of the line, your love is like a shadow on me all of the tiiiime~
18:26:43 <fizzie> Apparently the ones visible (as in, the umbra passes over) in Finland in the 1900s have been in 1914, 1927, 1945 and 1990.
18:27:02 <fizzie> Then again, this is not the biggest place.
18:27:34 <fizzie> And the next one will be in 2126, when I probably won't be around to see it.
18:28:07 <fizzie> (Though there's an annular one in 2039. Maybe I should put in a calendar reminder.)
18:29:00 <Bike> fizzie will remain motionless, unable to speak or breathe under his own power, on life support, until 2126 to see the eclipse
18:29:12 * Fiora listens to that song again
18:29:20 <fizzie> Yes, that's certainly the best-case possibility.
18:31:49 <fizzie> [Looking at my "Events" list] "1955 – McDonald's restaurant dates its founding to the opening of a franchised restaurant by Ray Kroc, in Des Plaines, Illinois" well that's certainly something to be proud of.
18:33:53 <fizzie> Everyone's personally responsible for everything on their birthdate's Wikipedia page, right?
18:35:14 <shachaf> did you know wikipedia has two article: [[bath fizzie]](redirects to [[bath bomb]]) and [[bath fizzies]]
18:35:32 <shachaf> i bet these have never heard of each other
18:36:15 <fizzie> "Bath fizzies are material products designed to effervesce in personal bath water." "A bath bomb is a hard-packed mixture of chemicals which effervesces when wet" I'm sure they're two entirely different things.
18:36:34 <fizzie> Only one of them has an article image, though.
18:36:46 <fizzie> The shorter one is not a stub.
18:36:58 <kmc> itt bath salts
18:37:36 <fizzie> "C5H7O5COOH + NaHCO3 → C5H7O5COO-Na+ + H2O + CO2" I'm sure that's *exactly* someone who looks up Wikipedia for "bath fizzie" was looking for.
18:38:16 <shachaf> The difference between other bath bombs and Japanese bath bombs is that when the ball is fully dissolved, a small object is revealed. This is usually a figure.
18:38:22 <shachaf> Well, maybe Japanese people were on that page.
18:38:32 <fizzie> There are many anime bath balls in Japan.
18:39:30 <fizzie> Those LUSH things pictured in the article illustration leave quite a mess behind, too. No figures, though.
18:40:10 <fizzie> "In principle a fizzie could release phosphoric anhydride gas --" yeah, I could, but I don't *want* to.
18:40:54 <FireFly> On my birthday minus a few years they detonated a bomb over Hiroshima ._.
18:41:07 <fizzie> The bubbles from a fizzie tend to nucleate on and thereby tickle the bather under the water.
18:42:04 <fizzie> I like the complicated analysis of bubbles.
18:43:33 <fizzie> It's a type of bubble bath if you just consider there being bubbles within the water, but "should -- be distinguished" from stuff that produces bubbles on top of the water, also called bubble baths, since a true fizzie involves bubbles under the water. (These are deep waters.)
18:44:34 <FireFly> But are you a true fizzie?
18:45:09 <fizzie> If you sink me, I'm sure I'd produce a few bubbles before drowning.
18:45:18 <fizzie> Underwater bubbles, that is.
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19:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> all this talk of bubbles makes me want to check the bitcoin markets again
19:11:28 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's still inflating, I think
19:16:18 <kmc> http://bitcoinity.org/markets
19:16:38 <kmc> the price has been hanging around $100 since the crash from ~$260 a few days ago
19:17:15 <Taneb> You look disappointingly stable.
19:18:23 <Bike> aww, that one guy isn't occasionally buying at $190 still
19:18:45 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:19:33 <Taneb> zzo38, can you quickly comment on the cot-caught merger?
19:20:38 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:21:13 <HackEgo> 37) <ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. \ 1023) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
19:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cbvgo/if_a_prostitute_accepted_btc_is_it_still/c9ezyen
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19:22:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, do you subscribe to /r/bitcoin purely for entertainment value?
19:23:04 <Fiora> it seems like half schadenfreude half masochism <.<>
19:23:32 <Bike> jesus christ, what.
19:24:50 <Gregor> Hmmmm, the Pez store has free shipping on orders of $100 or more...
19:25:05 <Gregor> Sounds like... an excellent idea.
19:25:05 <Taneb> Gregor, what about the Fez store
19:25:20 <Taneb> Gregor, but think about it!
19:25:40 <Taneb> A fez lasts a lot longer!
19:26:09 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:26:19 <Taneb> You can wear one on your head!
19:26:27 <Gregor> You can wear Pez on your head.
19:26:33 <Gregor> I don't know if I'd recommend it...
19:26:40 <Bike> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57260.0 jis this a joke i can't tell help
19:26:42 <fizzie> You can make underwear out of Pez. ...or so I've heard...
19:26:44 <oerjan> Pez or Fez, what's the difference.
19:26:44 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:26:51 <lambdabot> Taneb said 10h 34m 45s ago: thank you for that advice. I had been doing this wrong the whole time.
19:26:53 <Taneb> You can wear a Fez on your head and still have a successful career as a comedian/magician!
19:26:58 <Bike> Just kidding, it is a great idea! And, it looks like the perfect platform for regular noobs too, with a little rebranding
19:27:01 <Bike> Having an iFail app is a big plus for noob cred.
19:27:41 <fizzie> oerjan: They're going to be... bubbly...
19:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i saw that and i think my brain tried to save me
19:28:05 <fizzie> oerjan: (Only the very late bits.)
19:30:05 <fizzie> Also, to sorta-resurrect an earlier topic, whose idea it was to make the Sun and the Moon have apparent sizes that are a) so close to each other, and b) vary so that sometimes one's bigger, and sometimes the other.
19:31:01 <Taneb> fizzie, that was me, sorry.
19:31:10 <oerjan> fizzie: hm interestingly the moon is gradually receding (but afaik the sun isn't) so this only holds true during our part of earth's history
19:31:14 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, okay... just don't do it again!
19:31:20 <Taneb> It seemed like a good idea at the time :/
19:31:36 <oerjan> or wait, the sun may also be growing larger, maybe that balances out. not that we'll know before our oceans boil away.
19:32:16 <oerjan> well i suppose the sun is probably also receding but much slower
19:32:33 <oerjan> (not that the moon is in a hurry either)
19:32:59 <oerjan> ...someone other than me gave Gregor a channel bit?
19:33:29 <fizzie> Er, I mean, I didn't do it.
19:33:40 <fizzie> Perhaps ChanServ just sometimes spontaneously voices people?
19:34:05 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:34:34 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v oerjan.
19:34:38 <fizzie> Look, it happened again!
19:34:48 <fizzie> That rascally service.
19:36:35 <Bike> oerjan, do you speak for God now
19:36:54 <oerjan> fizzie: psst, chanserv is a snitch btw
19:37:04 <fizzie> oerjan: I was kind of afraid of that. :/
19:37:34 <oerjan> Bike: duh, i always do that. now if he'd only _agree_ with me...
19:38:43 <oerjan> but i think i've bitched about that before.
19:44:10 <FreeFull> Can anyone point me to concurrent programming exercises? No tutorial or anything necessary
19:44:31 <FreeFull> I want to write code that uses STM and don't have any ideas for something of my own
19:44:50 -!- Taneb has left ("Leaving").
19:44:55 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:45:00 <Taneb> I have GOT to stop doing that
19:45:16 <Taneb> Concurrency isn't necessarily STM?
19:52:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:58:16 -!- mnoqy has joined.
20:00:42 <zzo38> Why do you think it was necessarily someone's idea to make the Sun and Moon have similar apparent sizes?
20:03:47 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:05:10 <fizzie> How else would they have ended up that way? It's just like finding a watch.
20:06:35 <zzo38> If you want an answer, perhaps the only answer that can be said, would be, God.
20:08:32 <zzo38> How is it like finding a watch?
20:08:55 <Bike> It's a reference to the Watchmaker argument.
20:09:32 -!- conehead has joined.
20:09:39 <zzo38> But surely the similar apparent sizes of the Sun and Moon is not as complicated as a watch!
20:09:39 <fizzie> It's designers all the way down.
20:13:15 <oerjan> fizzie: maybe the astrological possibility of eclipses was essential to the evolution of humanity hth
20:13:17 <FreeFull> I was going to say that you can use STM without any concurrency whatsoever, although it wouldn't be very useful
20:13:44 <Bike> FreeFull: i think he meant the converse.
20:14:09 <oerjan> FreeFull: i have the vague impression some people use STM and TVars rather than IORefs on principle, even if not using concurrency?
20:14:28 <FreeFull> You could use the actor model or locking
20:14:32 <zzo38> Maybe; well, eclipses do add something, at least.
20:15:01 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:15:10 <FreeFull> "If I ever want to make this concurrent, it will be easier"?
20:16:29 <FreeFull> Talking of something completely different, I should see what strict IO in Haskell is like
20:17:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: the basics are pretty similar to in ordinary imperative languages
20:17:36 <oerjan> but then there is also stuff like strict Bytestring and Text
20:18:00 <oerjan> which have all sorts of fusion stuff in addition, i think
20:18:32 <elliott> if opped I promise to de-voice oerjan.
20:18:38 <elliott> only Gregor shall be voiced.
20:18:47 <shachaf> If opped I will deop myself.
20:18:57 <oerjan> elliott: are you saying my impression of ByteString and Text are bullshit?
20:19:01 <shachaf> But first I'd deop elliott.
20:19:10 <elliott> oerjan: i have not read a thing.
20:19:18 <elliott> oerjan: i am just continuing my ophood campaign from earlier.
20:19:47 <oerjan> elliott: huh apparently i cannot devoice myself without opping first
20:20:15 <elliott> oerjan: I can think of a good person to op for that duty.
20:20:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v oerjan.
20:21:06 <oerjan> i guess if the channel is bubbly already...
20:21:21 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
20:21:50 <elliott> i am maintaining Gregor's optimal voice status as we speak.
20:21:50 <Bike> Everybody hit the fucking deck
20:22:05 * Bike dives under glogbot
20:22:10 <elliott> sorry, i'm going to be boringly responsible so i end up on the chanserv access list. *that* is when the fun begins
20:22:22 <Bike> oh god oh god oh god it's planning
20:22:32 <elliott> i can't be worse than lament.
20:22:38 <Bike> okay that's true
20:22:43 <Bike> but was lament an op??
20:23:02 <elliott> he's been there since the beginning
20:23:07 <Bike> I don't think I was even alive in 2002.
20:23:10 <elliott> i think he was listed as founder for a while?
20:23:15 <mnoqy> has famously used his op powers for: banning himself, banning someone else?, idk what else
20:23:35 <FreeFull> Banning yourself isn't a bad thing
20:24:41 <Bike> yes that is the case
20:24:50 <oerjan> surprisingly mature for their age, these bicycles
20:25:39 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA1vZ8wJTys
20:25:48 <fizzie> oerjan: They don't have to be the *same* size for eclipses, you could've just made a clearly bigger moon.
20:26:01 <oerjan> fizzie: for eclipses both ways
20:26:31 <oerjan> hm wait how _does_ that work
20:26:52 <oerjan> moving the moon further away allows lunar eclipses at a larger size
20:27:03 <FreeFull> Now it's at the distance where it sometimes will cover the sun completely during an eclipse, and sometimes won't
20:27:07 <Bike> the moon's just afraid of comitment
20:27:15 <FreeFull> Eventually, we will never get another full eclipse again
20:27:36 <Bike> well then we can just move to the moon
20:28:00 <fizzie> oerjan: Making the planet bigger also allows for big-moon lunar eclipses, and doesn't alter the apparent sizes of the star and the moon.
20:28:29 <FreeFull> Of course, the current state of things did help validate relativity and help us study the solar corona
20:28:55 <fizzie> FreeFull: Yes but it's an annoyingly coincidental state.
20:29:06 <oerjan> fizzie: i am just suddenly wondering if you can have both lunar and solar eclipses without being close to the limit for either
20:29:43 <FreeFull> Well, if the moon is close to the planet, then you'll easily have both
20:30:01 <Phantom_Hoover> lunar eclipses are dependent on the size of the planet
20:30:03 <doesthiswork> elliott: make it exiting in here and bring back GOMADWarrior
20:30:05 <fizzie> oerjan: I would think you could make an (well, within limits) arbitrarily big moon, and the planet to shadow it.
20:30:08 <FreeFull> Assuming the planet is bigger than the moon, which does tend to be the case =P
20:30:28 <shachaf> elliott: when are you going to op me
20:30:54 <FreeFull> I wonder if you get full solar eclipses on the edge of Jupiter's atmosphere
20:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> the planet needs to be bigger than the /star/ (i mean angularly obviously)
20:31:02 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm betting on something involving the mantle freezing
20:31:06 <fizzie> FreeFull: And since we now know about those things that you say it was useful for, we might as well get rid of it.
20:31:08 <shachaf> oerjan: when are you going to op me
20:31:21 <oerjan> shachaf: _possibly_ slightly sooner.
20:31:33 <shachaf> slightly sooner as in today?
20:31:42 <fizzie> FreeFull: Does it have a particularly well-defined edge? (Sure, you can just set an arbitrary threshold.)
20:31:44 <FreeFull> fizzie: Can never study the corona enough
20:31:58 <FreeFull> Although we now have dedicated satellites orbitting the sun for that I think
20:32:14 <FreeFull> fizzie: It's fuzzy, as gases tend to be =P
20:32:44 <fizzie> FreeFull: You can just look at it from the proper distance behind the moon to make them the same size, if you *really* want to.
20:32:54 <FreeFull> You would have to set some arbitrary low threshold
20:33:30 <fizzie> I mean, if they'd just pump in some more cheese, we'd get a bigger moon, and I guess longer eclipses to boot.
20:33:41 <doesthiswork> why don't we have more satellites orbiting other planets?
20:34:35 <Bike> Because they're way the hell up there.
20:35:23 <oerjan> <fizzie> FreeFull: And since we now know about those things that you say it was useful for, we might as well get rid of it. <-- R.I.P. Alexander Abian
20:36:18 <FreeFull> fizzie: The Moon keeps the Earth from growing all wonky
20:36:23 <doesthiswork> not much farther out of the well then geosynchronous
20:36:29 <FreeFull> And tides are important for quite a lot of organisms
20:36:30 <fizzie> We've got some around the moon, right?
20:36:40 <fizzie> (Satellites, that is.)
20:36:53 <FreeFull> doesthiswork: We do have sattelites orbitting Mars
20:37:02 <FreeFull> We might have a sattelite orbitting Venus, probably not
20:37:53 -!- AnotherTest has left.
20:37:54 <fizzie> "A few space probes have been placed into orbit around other bodies and become artificial satellites to the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and the Sun."
20:38:01 <oerjan> hm it doesn't really make sense _not_ to have permanent satellites around all major planets
20:38:18 <fizzie> That's not such a shabby list, even if they weren't all current.
20:38:43 <oerjan> the newest mercury one was all the rage last year iirc
20:39:01 <oerjan> assuming it was a satellite, maybe it was just passing by
20:39:08 <FreeFull> I know there was a sattelite around Venus that used radar to map its terrain at some point
20:39:26 <FreeFull> For the Sun, there are at least two sattelites right now that monitor it
20:39:49 <FreeFull> I think they are called Stereo-A and Stereo-B but not sure
20:40:00 <elliott> which one is the left and right channel
20:40:05 <FreeFull> I also keep writing satellite as sattelite
20:40:21 <FreeFull> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEREO
20:42:11 <Bike> They're too restricting.
20:42:25 <doesthiswork> hey! there was a satellite crash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_satellite_collision
20:42:26 <oerjan> Bike: do you like _painting_ bike sheds
20:43:16 <Bike> uh oerjan are you expecting a bike to be able to paint
20:44:34 <Bike> no just the one
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20:46:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Bike: not found
20:46:36 <Bike> shachaf: help.
20:53:25 <doesthiswork> they figure that envisat will be the one to set it off
20:56:02 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
20:56:08 <HackEgo> 1025) <FreeFull> So a monoid is something like a mon, so for example pikachu is a monoid
21:08:13 <shachaf> first you introduce funny wisdom into the database
21:08:51 <elliott> hackego has no funny wisdom
21:09:17 <doesthiswork> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
21:09:37 <Bike> He maintained Gregor's optimal voice status for a while, once.
21:09:37 <HackEgo> Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose.
21:10:16 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
21:10:18 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
21:10:31 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
21:10:37 <Bike> `cat wisdom/quine
21:10:50 <shachaf> mnoqy: any reason you chose to say hi right now or is it just "the goood ness of your heart"
21:11:00 <mnoqy> le'ts go with that
21:11:24 <mnoqy> either is fine with me
21:11:25 <shachaf> oh i sent you messages about boston
21:11:25 <oerjan> `run ? quine | sh | sh | sh | sh
21:11:30 <HackEgo> sh: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
21:11:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: so i guess its final "youre going to boston""???
21:12:11 <mnoqy> i dont think so...
21:12:20 <HackEgo> sh: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
21:13:18 -!- doesthiswork has left.
21:13:27 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
21:14:34 <oerjan> `run sh -e `run quine`'`'
21:14:36 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found \ sh: Can't open `
21:14:50 <oerjan> is that the wrong flag for sh
21:14:54 <oerjan> `run sh -c `run quine`'`'
21:14:56 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found \ sh: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
21:15:19 <oerjan> `run echo `run quine`'`'
21:15:21 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found \ `
21:15:52 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
21:16:58 <oerjan> ...that's not going to work nested.
21:31:22 <FreeFull> oerjan: What were you trying to do?
21:31:47 <FreeFull> If you were trying to break quine, you were successful
21:32:19 <shachaf> oh no have you been reading echsztein backwards again
21:34:58 <oerjan> <shachaf> I don't know anyone named Insert or Push. <-- Insert McConnoughy, a very friendly man as long as you don't anger him by putting the accent on the second syllable.
21:35:29 <shachaf> mnoqy how would you like to join the "mnoqy fan club"
21:35:43 <mnoqy> i don't think that's a real club, shachaf
21:36:28 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:36:38 <shachaf> mnoqy: (did you see that nose that was good wasn't it, admit it was good, it's the "kind of thing we do" in the mnoqy fan club)
21:37:07 <oerjan> <FreeFull> oerjan: What were you trying to do? <-- fooling around hth
21:37:54 <shachaf> oerjan: you know if someone asks a question you can just answer it without sticking hth at the end
21:37:54 <oerjan> shachaf: mnoqy: get a room okay?
21:38:00 <mnoqy> oerjan.......................
21:38:07 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey what kind of room do you want
21:38:27 <oerjan> mnoqy: you can just quietly lock shachaf into it if that's what you want.
21:38:32 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO b0))
21:38:40 <FreeFull> Oh right, lambdabot doesn't do that
21:38:56 <mnoqy> oerjan: i don't think that would be very nice....
21:39:01 <oerjan> > execWriter . forever $ tell "Hello"
21:39:03 <lambdabot> "HelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHelloHell...
21:40:18 <oerjan> shachaf: but that doesn't sound as helpful hth
21:40:49 <shachaf> mnoqy: no it's okay it's "what im into"
21:41:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY8jaGs7xJ0
21:41:37 -!- carado has joined.
21:41:57 <oerjan> `learn mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
21:42:47 <shachaf> `learn Ørjan is oerjan's good twin.
21:43:05 <shachaf> lowercaser.....................
21:43:13 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin.
21:43:17 <oerjan> i don't think it knows norwegian capitalization rules
21:43:44 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin.
21:43:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z | sed "s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1;
21:44:09 <shachaf> how do you lowercase things properly
21:44:16 <oerjan> i cleverly evade my good twin by staying on networks where his name is not a legal username.
21:44:46 <oerjan> shachaf: if you want to include turkish, then "give up" is the right method i hear
21:44:46 <HackEgo> Y@9*;XOA0[65̋#@c*B$~(:zuB-;v}龜WݢPX64͆3P#
21:44:46 <shachaf> oerjan: I was going to add something about that but then I decided not to.
21:45:10 <shachaf> oerjan: No Turkısh necessary.
21:45:18 <Bike> let me tell you about unicode
21:46:33 <oerjan> shachaf: ı see what you dıd there
21:46:38 <olsner> don't let Bike tell you about unicode
21:47:20 <shachaf> `run echo '#!/bin/bash\ntr A-ZØ a-zø' > bin/lowercase; chmod +x bin/lowercase
21:47:26 <shachaf> `run echo ØRJAN | lowercase
21:47:28 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/lowercase: /bin/bash\ntr: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
21:47:45 <shachaf> `run echo -e '#!/bin/bash\ntr A-ZØ a-zø' > bin/lowercase; chmod +x bin/lowercase
21:47:49 <shachaf> `run echo ØRJAN | lowercase
21:48:09 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/tr A-Z a-z/lowercase/' bin/\?
21:48:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/ .*//' | tr A-Z a-z) \ info=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[^ ]* //') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "I knew that."
21:48:19 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/tr A-Z a-z/lowercase/' bin/learn
21:48:59 <oerjan> our HackEgo programs are getting more modular by the week
21:49:18 <shachaf> mnoqy: was that yes for me
21:49:23 <Bike> i like how 'unix philosophy' practically works when you do it on this stupid system
21:50:05 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin.
21:50:48 <mnoqy> > compare "oerjan" "Ørjan"
21:50:49 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:50:52 <mnoqy> conclusive evidence
21:51:04 <shachaf> That Ørjan is definitely an invalid character.
21:52:24 <kmc> oerjan: get well soon
21:52:43 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/$/ He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers./' wisdom/ørjan
21:52:45 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
21:52:52 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/$/ He'\''s banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers./' wisdom/ørjan
21:53:29 <kmc> i was just making a funpun :'(
21:53:37 <Bike> 'invalid' used to mean 'sick'
21:53:44 <lambdabot> *** "invalid" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:53:44 <lambdabot> adj 1: having no cogency or legal force; "invalid reasoning";
21:53:44 <lambdabot> "an invalid driver's license" [ant: {valid}]
21:53:44 <lambdabot> 2: no longer valid; "the license is invalid"
21:53:48 <lambdabot> n 1: someone who is incapacitated by a chronic illness or injury
21:53:52 <lambdabot> v 1: force to retire, remove from active duty, as of firemen
21:53:54 <lambdabot> 2: injure permanently; "He was disabled in a car accident" [syn:
21:53:56 <lambdabot> {disable}, {invalid}, {incapacitate}, {handicap}]
21:54:22 <shachaf> > "<Bike> 'invalid' usеd to mean 'sick'"
21:54:22 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:54:26 <shachaf> Bike: Your argument is invalid.
21:55:10 <shachaf> @google Ørjan johansen papers
21:55:12 <lambdabot> http://jop.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/03/08/0269881112439253.abstract
21:55:13 <lambdabot> Title: Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) for alcoholism: meta-analysis of randomized con ...
21:55:18 <Bike> ^ord "<Bike> 'invalid' usеd to mean 'sick'
21:55:19 <fungot> 34 60 66 105 107 101 62 32 39 105 110 118 97 108 105 100 39 32 117 115 208 181 100 32 116 111 32 109 101 97 110 32 39 115 105 99 107 39
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21:55:39 <oerjan> <Bike> 'invalid' used to mean 'sick' <-- ah. kmc is confusing me with my good twin. how embarassing.
21:55:54 <shachaf> Oh, kmc is our local expert on Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and/or alcoholism
21:56:00 <mnoqy> Bike: it's the e in usеd
21:56:07 <Bike> oh, latin small letter k
21:56:08 <mnoqy> "not actually an e"
21:56:15 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:56:22 <shachaf> mnoqy: your argument is invalid hth
21:56:50 <shachaf> mnoqy: by the way it would be more accurate to say that it's the е in usеd
21:56:57 <shachaf> mnoqy: because usеd has no e
21:57:06 <Bike> And it's analyses of LSD being used in efforts to reduce alcohol dependence. Not both as addictions (LSD isn't even habit-forming >:
21:57:08 <oerjan> shachaf: good paper find
21:58:17 <oerjan> sorry, you looked like a fly at the end there
21:58:43 <shachaf> Bike: if lsd isn't habit forming then why do i have a habit of making lsd jokes
21:59:43 <shachaf> (btw im not good at making lsd jokes)
22:00:00 <mnoqy> are lsd jokes a "thing"
22:00:16 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:00:27 <Bike> how i r o n i c
22:00:44 <kmc> there's a strong pop culture idea of what acid does, although it's not super accurate
22:01:05 <Bike> Have You Ever, Like, Really Looked At Your Hands
22:01:09 <shachaf> pop culture more like pop vulture
22:01:22 <kmc> that's more of a stoner thing I think
22:01:35 <shachaf> hmmmmm i guess someone made that "not really joke but kind of joke" before
22:01:38 <kmc> acid doesn't make you dumb the way pot does, it also doesn't make you magically smart the way people think/wish it does
22:01:39 <shachaf> and named a magazine after it
22:02:00 <Bike> kmc: well i guess a rainbow is harder to type
22:02:02 <kmc> my best concise description of acid and related drugs is that they increase the sensitivity of pattern matching systems in the brain
22:02:13 <kmc> sensory but also cognitive and emotional
22:02:19 <Bike> wait is lsd a hallucinogen i thought it was
22:02:21 <shachaf> do you non-exhaustive patterns
22:02:29 <kmc> Bike: yeah
22:02:34 <kmc> it's a 5HT agonist
22:02:40 <mnoqy> this is a pretty in-depth joke eh
22:02:41 <kmc> activates serotonin receptors
22:02:55 <Bike> i feel like i should know basics about drugs even though i don't even use caffeine
22:02:58 <Bike> for some reason
22:03:10 <kmc> 'hallucinogen' is kind of a misnomer though
22:03:20 <mnoqy> well if someone pulls you over on the sidewalk
22:03:21 <kmc> acid doesn't tend to make people see things that plain aren't there, except at very high doses
22:03:37 <kmc> like pink elephants marching down the street or whatever
22:03:47 <Bike> oh i uh, thought that was what hallucinogen meant :(
22:03:50 <shachaf> lsd is so hardcore even your doses can be high
22:03:58 <Bike> do you misinterpret things that actually are there?
22:04:00 <Fiora> that was more of a thing with hallinogenic mushrooms, wasn't it?
22:04:02 <kmc> more commonly it will make textures appear to move and melt, moving objects will form trails, etc
22:04:18 <Bike> LSD sounds like my usual existence but moreso
22:04:20 <kmc> mushrooms and acid are pretty similar in effects, ime
22:04:21 <shachaf> Bike: use drugz its good 4 u
22:04:22 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:04:30 <kmc> they act on the same systems in the brain
22:04:33 <shachaf> (does Bike dare to resist)
22:04:43 <Bike> in my humble input method
22:04:55 <Bike> dare to resist druglessness
22:04:59 <Fiora> (no actually having done that stuff is probably pretty cool)
22:05:05 <kmc> acid has a reputation for being stronger, but i think that's essentially a matter of average relative dose (of course acid is much much stronger per milligram)
22:05:13 <kmc> yeah, in my experience :)
22:05:26 <shachaf> kmc used to work in the lsd mines
22:05:35 <elliott> okay wait i have a good "wisecrack"
22:05:39 <Bike> i've read a few psycho hippie books about shrooms
22:05:42 <kmc> omg elliott is an op !!
22:05:43 <elliott> are you ready for my hilarious crossover programmer/drugs joke
22:05:45 <mnoqy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm5p4oC0jzI lsd testimonials
22:05:45 <Bike> i think this is a bad place to learn about shrooms
22:05:46 <shachaf> elliott: ops can't make "wisecracks"
22:05:50 <kmc> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
22:05:51 <shachaf> elliott: you gotta be serious
22:05:59 <elliott> does php make sense on acid :-)
22:06:07 <kmc> php more like pcp
22:06:11 <kmc> A BETTER JOKE THAN YOURS ELLIOTT
22:06:20 <kmc> i had better things to do
22:06:54 <kmc> php: a programming language that will make you go crazy and attack a police officer
22:06:59 <elliott> i think if i was on drugs i would just go on irc
22:07:05 <kmc> (mostly pcp doesn't do that either, but it's p. bad for you)
22:07:12 <mnoqy> would you make you fool of yourself
22:07:26 <Bike> this is the most dramatic hot dog purchase i've ever seen monqy
22:08:00 <Bike> these effects are amazing
22:08:15 -!- sirdancealo2 has joined.
22:08:36 <elliott> hey what about that lsd game has anyone played that i haven't but i want to
22:08:44 <mnoqy> it has a good soundtrack
22:08:58 <shachaf> oh a "computer game" i thougth you emant "a real game"
22:08:58 <Bike> it's a game based on a dream diary
22:09:28 <Bike> okay seriously this music
22:09:30 <mnoqy> shachaf: like a drinking game?
22:09:40 <shachaf> mnoqy: no like a taking lsd game obviously.........
22:09:43 <elliott> wow i sure wish youtube would stop bugging me about my fucking name
22:09:50 <elliott> shachaf: https://github.com/catseye/Specs-on-Spec/blob/master/turkey-bomb/turkey-bomb.markdown
22:09:54 <Bike> isn't your name elliott
22:09:54 <mnoqy> the trick is to not have a youtube account
22:10:19 <Bike> But then I can't watch horrible videos of dying Syrians.
22:10:35 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc720XrvXoc LSD has a good soundtrack.
22:10:57 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey is your name pollyanna
22:10:57 <olsner> is that an actual recording of what lsd sounds like?
22:11:25 <kmc> as far as 5HT agonists go I've taken: LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, 2C-E, 2C-I, 2C-B, DOI, DiPT, 4-HO-DiPT, 4-HO-MET, 2C-F, 5-MeO-DMT
22:11:32 <kmc> probably some others i forgot about
22:11:32 <mnoqy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wn1Bqtx6vk lsd has a good soundtrack
22:11:37 <Bike> kmc: those aren't very catchy names
22:11:42 <kmc> yeah...........
22:11:42 <Bike> olsner: is that a serious question.
22:11:51 <shachaf> Bike: half of them are complexity classes
22:11:57 <shachaf> Bike: kmc is so "out of it he doesn't" even know
22:12:04 <kmc> most of them aren't very popular
22:12:07 <kmc> hipster drugs you might say
22:12:09 <Bike> i'm so high i'm out of QCD
22:12:13 <Fiora> you and kmc should like, geek out over neurobiology
22:12:16 <Fiora> you'd go so well together
22:12:21 <Bike> i'm shit at neurobiology though
22:12:29 <Bike> also a lot of drug effects are well
22:12:29 <Fiora> yes but you love it and that's the important part right?
22:12:30 <shachaf> kmc should join #fiora and have cool Fiora discussions
22:12:32 <Bike> pretty unknown
22:12:32 <Fiora> and you're way better at it than me
22:12:46 <mnoqy> is that an actual channel
22:12:51 <kmc> shachaf: well, because they aren't significantly different from the established competitors, and the overall market for 5HT agonist psychedelics is actually pretty small
22:12:53 <Fiora> um, apparently @_@
22:12:57 <Bike> cannibinoids are pretty ubiquitous in undrugged bodies too but beyond that i have no idea
22:13:11 <Bike> oh, and the thing where your pineal gland makes something DHT-ish
22:13:18 <kmc> the number of people who will take cocaine or MDMA every weekend is way higher than the number of people who will take LSD every weekend
22:13:32 <kmc> or you know, will take cocaine every 20 minutes
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22:13:37 <Bike> i didn't even know you could get LSD any more
22:13:47 <kmc> it was always pretty hard to get, when i was looking for it
22:14:01 <kmc> it's hard to make, and not very profitable, and once you've made some you've made enough for a mid size country
22:14:12 <kmc> so it's a fairly strange commodity in economic terms
22:14:26 <kmc> did you all read http://www.vice.com/read/life-is-a-cosmic-giggle-803-v18n5
22:14:32 <mnoqy> taking cocaine every 20 minutes doesn't sound very healthy. cocaine's one of those "bad for you" drugs right.....
22:14:42 <kmc> mnoqy: la cocaína no es buena para su salud
22:14:50 <mnoqy> what does that mean!
22:15:02 <kmc> the cocaine is not good for your health
22:15:27 <mnoqy> ah..yeah that's what i've read
22:15:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: but have you tested it
22:15:51 <Bike> kmc: ok i'm ten words into this article and what the fuck.
22:16:00 <mnoqy> why would i "do" something that's bad for me!
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22:16:16 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, I did read that article!
22:16:31 <shachaf> mnoqy: what if """""""""""the man" is trying to keep you down
22:16:32 <mnoqy> "lsd palace" sounds cool
22:16:47 <Bike> is... "goth stripper" a thing? i didn't realize
22:16:48 <kmc> crystal castles
22:17:10 <mnoqy> these drug puns are pretty bad
22:17:39 <kmc> i think most people who've ever taken LSD probably take it less often than once a year
22:18:04 <Bike> fun fact there are no good drug puns
22:18:09 <mnoqy> what's up with these quotes
22:18:13 <HackEgo> 1031) <ais523> in soviet russia, what sees you is what gets you
22:18:39 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see my CCCP 'russian reversal'
22:18:41 * oerjan swats doesthiswork for breaking the quote format in privmsg -----###
22:19:04 <kmc> does HackEgo's hg repository remember what IRC nick is associated with each change?
22:19:44 <shachaf> oerjan: Can we make a rule that you don't mess with the quotes in /msg "period"
22:20:05 <kmc> LSD is one of the most valuable bulk substances by mass
22:20:38 <olsner> does wikipedia have a list for that?
22:20:49 <shachaf> http://www.cockeyed.com/science/gallon/liquid.html
22:21:04 <shachaf> kmc: do you manufacture lsd
22:21:20 <kmc> can't chemistry
22:21:36 <Bike> "acre foot". this is new to me
22:21:37 <shachaf> kmc, web developer by day, lsd manufacturer by night
22:21:52 <Bike> He could be like that Grateful Dead dude.
22:22:00 <Bike> Except, well, not.
22:22:25 <oerjan> shachaf: assuming you don't simply mean quote 1031 above
22:22:39 <shachaf> 05:34 <Botje> mushi: are you seriously expecting me to figure out _your_ problem like this?
22:22:48 <shachaf> 05:34 <Botje> mushi: go to bed, take another look tomorrow.
22:22:52 <shachaf> <mushi> its dude in a hour~
22:23:29 <Bike> where the hell did she get that blood...
22:23:43 <olsner> ... from a children's hospital
22:24:05 <Bike> also i didn't know they even bagged whole gallons of blood
22:24:28 <olsner> more space efficient than keeping the blood in humans
22:24:43 <Bike> kmc: I think you and elliott should start a band, move to thailand, and start an LSD/cobra venom factory.
22:25:00 <shachaf> Bike: uhhhh scorpion venom is a billion times more valuable
22:25:25 <kmc> what concentration of LSD is that
22:25:28 <Bike> yeah so it's probably a billion times harder to make
22:25:31 <Bike> think this through bro
22:25:36 <kmc> itt supply and demand
22:25:38 <shachaf> Bike: well why not make water
22:25:51 <shachaf> it's like a billion trillion times easier to make
22:25:59 <oerjan> Bike: thailand is one of the places that has the death penalty for drug trade isn't it?
22:26:01 <kmc> imo water is pretty hard to make
22:26:04 <Bike> Because to measure it you'd need a whole acre of land to make a foot deep
22:26:08 <kmc> also it doesn't have much nutrients and that's why it's so cheap
22:26:13 <Bike> oerjan: Makes it more exciting.
22:26:40 <shachaf> oerjan: loophole: sell drugs instead of trading them
22:27:06 <oerjan> shachaf: that's the kind of geek-invented loophole that kills geeks
22:27:12 <kmc> i took one freshman chemistry lab, I managed to complete it without breaking all the glassware in one incident or pouring mercury-cobolt mixture down the drain
22:27:15 <kmc> so i did better than many of the students
22:27:38 <kmc> that was one of the most universally despised classes
22:27:40 <shachaf> kmc: You did better than all the other students put together!
22:29:34 <kmc> also despised because it usually started at 9AM
22:30:02 <Bike> sounds like a good time to make toxins
22:30:31 <shachaf> out with the bad, in with the worse
22:30:51 <kmc> new channel motto
22:31:21 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: did you see my CCCP 'russian reversal' <-- now i did -----###
22:31:35 <shachaf> oerjan: HEY what was that for
22:31:59 <oerjan> shachaf: in soviet russia, CCCP swats YOU.
22:32:24 <kmc> CTCP swats you
22:32:35 <Bike> that's my basic experience with ctcp yeah
22:32:53 <kmc> how many gallons of blood does a child have anyway
22:32:55 <kmc> asking for a friend
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22:33:17 <shachaf> kmc: just enough to leave you wanting more
22:33:25 <oerjan> Koen__: is that how many litters of children you need for a gallon of blood?
22:33:56 <Koen__> oerjan: it would be if I could be bothered with those weird units
22:33:56 * kmc can't give blood
22:33:58 <Bike> i should probably knowthis hm
22:34:10 <kmc> yep, too gay
22:34:17 <kmc> which is to say even a little gay
22:34:22 <Bike> yeah it's so bullshit
22:34:30 <kmc> i'll just hang onto my blood then
22:34:34 <Koen__> hey in france it's almost ok for gays to give blood
22:34:36 <kmc> fine by me
22:34:37 <Bike> don't worry i'll donate more blood
22:34:42 <Bike> just throw sacks of it at them
22:34:48 <kmc> it's one less thing to feel guilty about not giving
22:34:49 <shachaf> you can donate kmc's blood
22:35:00 <shachaf> are vampires allowed to donate blood
22:35:19 <oerjan> human immortality virus
22:35:20 <kmc> i should start privately banking my own blood like cosmo kramer or gus fring
22:35:30 <Koen__> not if they've changed sucking partners in the previous three months shachaf
22:35:34 <Bike> probably depends on whether they've been to romania
22:35:46 * kmc has been to Transylvania!
22:35:51 <kmc> i rode a horse there
22:35:54 <kmc> it was really nice
22:36:18 <kmc> ...t that i'm aware of
22:36:42 <shachaf> absence of presents is not presence of absents, hth
22:37:50 <shachaf> kmc: btw the last episode of season 4 of breaking bad was good
22:37:55 <Bike> you know i don't even know how that works
22:37:58 <kmc> shachaf: yes
22:38:04 <kmc> shachaf: also all the other episodes
22:38:08 <Bike> how do you donate blood in the UK? does the red cross just go "oh well fuck that mad cow bullshit"
22:38:15 <kmc> shachaf: more or less
22:38:46 <oerjan> Bike: they've just captured all the vegans and put them in blood factories hth
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22:39:13 <Bike> man i would love to visit a blood factory
22:39:29 <shachaf> Bike: twist, you are a blood factory
22:39:43 <shachaf> also most everyone you know
22:40:34 <shachaf> I wish I could go home right now. :-( I probably won't until tomorrow.
22:40:57 <shachaf> But it might be a bad idea.
22:49:52 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: "u'll have to pay me royalties" <-- but i haven't started rounding up royals yet!
22:58:45 * oerjan points the firehose on SgeoOnFire ========================|>
22:59:13 -!- SgeoOnFire has changed nick to SgeoOnWater.
22:59:39 * oerjan throws SgeoOnWater into the freezer
23:00:13 * oerjan waits for this to evolve into disney suing
23:00:40 -!- SgeoOnWater has changed nick to SgeoOnLessDenseW.
23:01:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:42 -!- augur has joined.
23:13:19 <shachaf> mnoqy: what do you think of axiom k
23:14:11 <mnoqy> equality is weird and i don't like thinking about it
23:14:57 <shachaf> well are you asking whether i'm equal to equality
23:15:58 <kmc> And if you're on fire, you're gonna need some water / And if you're underwater, you're gonna need some air / And if you're in the air, you're gonna need a place to land / And if you're on land, you can come and see my piece of shit band!
23:16:56 <oerjan> to land, perchance to band
23:21:37 <oerjan> <elliott> i will divert funding from the overfunded #esoteric military to this noble research <-- overfunded? it's not even big enough to invade canada yet
23:21:58 <Bike> don't you need infinite money to invade canada
23:22:25 <oerjan> i don't think so, Bike
23:22:25 <shachaf> Bike: only if you use canadian dollars
23:22:30 <mnoqy> invade canada by way of integrating into canadian society and living out a peaceful canadian life and death
23:22:36 <Bike> i mean because Existence Joke
23:23:00 <shachaf> is the joke that canada doesn't exist
23:23:04 <olsner> to invade canada you have to create it first
23:23:10 <oerjan> you'd think a nonexistent country should be easy to invade, but no
23:23:11 <shachaf> um canada definitely exists
23:23:14 <shachaf> you're thinking of england
23:23:58 <oerjan> england exists, at least gatthrow airport
23:24:27 <elliott> i can't deal with how awful gmail's new compose ui is
23:24:35 <oerjan> shachaf: next to dorothy's house?
23:24:46 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada,_Kansas
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23:26:47 <oerjan> oh the louisiana purchase included most of kansas?
23:27:23 <oerjan> wow that was actually huge
23:27:30 <Bike> the louisiana purchase included most of everything
23:27:43 <Bike> because france had more or less just said half the continent was theirs, and all
23:28:00 <Bike> man that history though
23:28:04 <Bike> "For millennia, the land now known as Kansas was inhabited by Native Americans. In 1803, most of modern Kansas was secured by the United States as part of the Louisiana Purchase. In 1854,"
23:28:16 <Bike> just get those millenia out of the way real quick
23:28:19 <oerjan> wow imagine what history would have been like if that hadn't happened
23:29:11 <oerjan> the us wouldn't even have _got_ to the mexican parts without going through that
23:30:23 <oerjan> current us might have stayed divided between several countries
23:30:38 <Bike> look at the reasons for the louisiana purchase happening, too
23:30:49 <Bike> napoleon wouldn't just get rid of all that for no reason, y'know
23:31:00 <kmc> napoleon gotta get paid
23:31:20 <Bike> well i mean, it's often attributed to the slave revolt in haiti
23:31:53 <Bike> which destroyed much chance of major french colonization since haiti was the breadbasket
23:33:13 <Bike> so, why not sell it off, i guess
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23:36:11 <oerjan> "Louisiana remained nominally under Spanish control until a transfer of power to France on November 30, 1803, just three weeks before the cession to the United States."
23:39:19 <Bike> ~international politics~
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00:20:57 <Sgeo> If a shirt says to machine wash warm, there's no harm in machine wash cold'ing it, is there?
00:21:32 <kmc> except that certain stains won't come out as well on cold (but that has nothing to do with the particular fabric type)
00:21:38 <kmc> and other stains will come out better on cold
00:22:07 <kmc> i'm a simple man with simple clothes and I wash them all together on warm and it's working out p. well
00:22:34 <Sgeo> All my shirts except one say machine wash cold
00:22:41 <Sgeo> So I'll go ahead and machine wash cold
00:25:09 <mnoqy> good judgment call
00:30:17 <tswett> Huh. About 3/4 of my shirts say warm and 1/4 say cold.
00:31:17 <tswett> shachaf: I'm trying to figure out what "I,I drop shipping" might mean.
00:31:23 <zzo38> Then wash it separately.
00:31:44 <tswett> Is "drop" the verb or the noun? Is "I" the first-person singular pronoun? Is "I,I" an ordered pair?
00:32:29 <tswett> Is this "shipping" as in the conveyance of goods, or as in the... what do you call it.
00:32:45 <tswett> The imagination of relationships?
00:32:58 <oerjan> istr being told here recently that I,I means "i have nothing to say, i just like saying"
00:33:17 <tswett> "I have nothing to say, I just like saying drop shipping"?
00:33:31 <tswett> Like "I just like saying 'drop shipping'"?
00:33:42 <oerjan> the "say" possibly was something else.
00:33:49 <oerjan> but not much more meaningful.
00:34:16 <oerjan> tswett: well the louisiana purchase _did_ look a bit like drop shipping
00:34:34 <tswett> What is drop shipping, anyway?
00:34:39 <tswett> Is it when you convey goods by dropping them?
00:35:21 <oerjan> "Drop shipping is a supply chain management technique in which the retailer does not keep goods in stock, but instead transfers customer orders and shipment details to either the manufacturer or a wholesaler, who then ships the goods directly to the customer." hth
00:36:55 <kmc> ts ts ts ts ts ts ts ts ts DROP SHIPPING WUBBBBBBBwubwubwubKZZZZZZZkzZWUBWUBWUBwubwubwub
00:37:16 <oerjan> is kmc quoting lyrics again
00:37:24 <Bike> dubstep: a lyric
00:54:30 <FreeFull> forkIO $ join . atomically $ x >>= readTVar >>= \x -> check (x==0) >> return (putStrLn "Is zero.") Either the STM implementation knows to not resume the thread until the TVar changes, or it doesn't check very often
00:54:51 <elliott> that's the essential idea of STM
00:55:02 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
00:55:30 <FreeFull> So there shouldn't be any reason why it shouldn't know
00:56:24 <Sgeo> Doesn't know the specific TVar under question, or does it treat all TVars touched by that time as suspect?
00:56:38 <elliott> well, it doesn't even care about "check".
00:57:08 <kmc> i don't know that I'd say it's the 'essential idea', but it's p. important
00:57:31 <Bike> i thought the essential idea of STM was the check state -> do transacation -> check consistency thing
00:57:38 <lambdabot> GHC.Conc.Sync atomically :: STM a -> IO a
00:57:38 <lambdabot> GHC.Conc atomically :: STM a -> IO a
00:57:38 <lambdabot> Control.Monad.STM atomically :: STM a -> IO a
00:57:39 <kmc> elliott: also why are you still +o don't you know that it raises the Channel Temperature™
00:57:41 <elliott> well the "essential idea" is composition
00:57:48 <kmc> Bike: it depends on whether you mean the user's or implementor's point of view
00:57:51 <elliott> kmc: oerjan hasn't added me to the access list yet!
00:57:53 <Bike> kmc: oh you think that's dumb too huh
00:57:59 <elliott> need to be prepared for them trolls
00:58:07 <kmc> Bike: channel temp? nah, it's probably fine advice
00:58:41 <kmc> mainly I like it when people aren't +o all the time because then when they give themselves +o it's like WOAH SHIT JUST GOT REAL
00:58:41 <oerjan> elliott: wait i thought you were +o to handle Gregor's voice
00:58:57 <kmc> i always imagine it as the sound of a pump action shotgun being cocked
00:59:09 <Bike> motherfucker you'd best step off
00:59:18 <Fiora> like a sheriff walking out from around the corner, holding his handgun
00:59:20 <Fiora> "settle down, boys"
00:59:39 <Fiora> like in a cowboy movie
01:00:44 <elliott> oerjan: consider: someone might come in and demand Gregor have an incorrect voice state.
01:00:53 <elliott> that would be rather disruptive
01:01:16 <oerjan> i think this is stretching things a bit.
01:01:29 <Bike> no, it's a reasonable concern
01:01:37 <elliott> oerjan: i have special domain-specific knowledge that i bring to this team
01:01:47 <elliott> kmc: i like it most when multiple ops go +o within seconds of each other
01:01:56 <elliott> and then there's the slight tension as they try to predict whether the other one will act first
01:01:59 <kmc> is that like a mexican standoff
01:02:01 <elliott> so it takes a few seconds longer for anything to happen
01:02:28 <kmc> you need less scrupulous ops
01:02:29 <Bike> kmc: it's like a mexican standoff except they're all shooting the sae guy
01:02:34 <Bike> aka a firing squad maybe
01:03:15 <elliott> Nervous Firing Squad, kmc's other band
01:03:48 <Bike> kmc has a lot of bands
01:04:31 <oerjan> i recently read that quisling's firing squad had to replace one member who lost his nerves
01:06:19 <elliott> are we talking literal nerves
01:06:44 <Bike> demyelinating diseases are no laughing matter
01:07:26 <oerjan> i do not think they would admit people with such a disease into the police.
01:08:08 <kmc> Bike: what if I laugh in the face of death, generally speaking
01:08:33 <oerjan> and what if he then answers DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR HALITOSIS
01:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> "In a February 2005 article in The Times, Julie Burchill argued that use of the word is a form of "social racism", and that such "sneering" reveals more about the shortcomings of the "chav-haters" than those of their supposed victims." -- WP:Chav
01:18:53 <Bike> it's like classism, except...
01:19:47 <Gregor> "Gay" is the best race.
01:20:00 <kmc> does 'classism' just sound too old-fashioned as a word
01:20:06 <kmc> BBC tells me that Britain has 7 classes now
01:20:08 <Bike> it sounds marxist
01:20:12 <kmc> each classier than the others
01:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> istr there was something very stupid in that article but i forget what it was
01:20:36 <Bike> "Actually the whole point of an interpreter was portability and abstraction" talking about programming languages is suffering
01:20:48 <kmc> also I learned that the Daily Mail has a section called "Femail" which is all about condescending to women and is even worse than the regular Daily Mail
01:20:56 <Bike> that's an impressive feat
01:21:01 <kmc> i know, right?
01:21:26 <kmc> maybe it's not really worse, because it's more vapid and pointless
01:21:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean the rest of the daily mail is technically responsible for the ongoing measles epidemic in swansea
01:21:50 <Bike> well i have to check it out now
01:21:53 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: oh?
01:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> well they were one of the big promulgators of the mmr scare
01:22:07 <kmc> anti-vacciners?
01:22:09 <Bike> mercury vaccines or something else?
01:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> the british version is that MMR is what gives your children autism
01:22:47 <Bike> «'I wish IVF had never been invented' It's brought joy to so many. But, as the scientist behind IVF dies, Samantha Brick says it's given her nothing but heartache...» what the heck
01:22:55 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: that's a big thing in america too
01:23:03 <kmc> they claim the mercury causes autism somehow
01:23:14 <Bike> oh, yeah, wakefield
01:23:38 <Phantom_Hoover> (not dr wakefield any more, he got banned from doctoring)
01:23:42 <Fiora> and autism is as bad as hitler and it's worth subjecting your kids to dangerous diseases with a good chance of killing or cripplingn them because /at least it's not autism/
01:23:56 <Bike> «'I've only had three boyfriends! I'm not interested in serial dating' says actress Tamsin Egerton despite rumours linking her to Singularity co-star Josh Hartnett» good lord
01:24:08 <FreeFull> Last thing I heard was that vitamin d deficiency during pregnancy causes autism
01:24:14 <kmc> i guess being a parent of an autistic kid is terrifying and heartbreaking and you'll grasp desparately for anyone to blame or any supposed cure
01:24:54 <elliott> i think autism is "heartbreaking" mainly because most people have no fucking idea what it is
01:25:05 <Fiora> kmc: they definitely should never, like, ask the kids how they feel
01:25:18 <kmc> well at one end of the spectrum you can't right
01:25:22 <Fiora> because the true victims are the poor parents
01:25:23 <kmc> because the kids never talk, ever
01:25:23 <Bike> "YouTube star who rose to fame after hilarious drunk makeup tutorial now has more than one billion hits and 8.2 million subscribers"
01:25:27 <elliott> Fiora: um i heard autistic kids don't have emotions
01:25:44 <elliott> from the institute of official science
01:25:49 <kmc> i mean it's not like 'autistic' means 'kinda socially awkward guy on reddit'
01:25:56 <Bike> He loves impersonal sex, should I worry?
01:26:14 <kmc> impersonational sex
01:26:22 <Fiora> sorry, I have feelings about this <_>
01:26:37 <elliott> kmc: well it's disingenuous to imply that "autism" in general refers to extreme cases
01:26:38 <Bike> ok i'm doing it i'm going to read this article
01:26:41 <Bike> or at least look at it.
01:26:55 <kmc> elliott: sure, I think we can agree that it's a spectrum and people are complicated and Blah Blah
01:27:40 <Bike> "My partner of four years often asks me to lie still in bed, as if I’m asleep, while he makes love to me. He is particularly turned on if I’m lying on my tummy.
01:27:41 <elliott> and in general it is widely interpreted as "autistic people cannot X" when what it actually means is "autistic people X differently but my perspective is too blinkered to understand it, isn't it tragic"
01:27:43 <Bike> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2305384/Rowan-Pellings-sex-advice-column-He-loves-impersonal-sex.html#ixzz2QUW4WnFA
01:27:49 <kmc> elliott: yeah
01:27:54 <Fiora> it doesn't even mean that
01:27:58 <kmc> all the same nerds focus on the least extreme manifestations, ime
01:27:58 <FreeFull> I know a couple of guys with aspergers
01:28:02 <Fiora> it means "some people described as autistic do X differently"
01:28:11 <Fiora> "autism" is a description, not a disease
01:28:23 <FreeFull> I'm magnetic to people with aspergers for some reason
01:28:35 <Bike> you may already be... an internet user
01:28:36 <kmc> imo most psychiatric 'diseases' are essentially 'descriptions', i'm not sure how you would distinguish them
01:28:40 <elliott> Fiora: yeah, I was generalising (I have a professional™ official™ aspergers diagnosis™)
01:28:42 <FreeFull> Also, I can't tell they have aspergers unless they tell me
01:28:47 <Fiora> http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/47935156276/hedgehoglike-this-post-is-some-personal <-- this is a good post
01:28:50 <elliott> or maybe it was one of the fancier autism diagnoses, I don't actually remember
01:28:57 <elliott> generalising, simplifying, whatever
01:28:58 <Fiora> elliott: I'm PDD-NOS, yay
01:29:03 <Bike> kmc: certainly they're not something you can "cure".
01:29:21 <Bike> especially something developmental, come on people.
01:29:22 -!- Tod-Autojoined2 has changed nick to TodPunk.
01:29:22 <kmc> it depends, mostly not tho
01:29:36 <Bike> it means development is different. you can't just erase years of that.
01:30:14 <Bike> "The key thing is that you say your boyfriend is a kind, salt-of-the-earth type — not a brooding Marquis de Sade.
01:30:17 <Bike> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2305384/Rowan-Pellings-sex-advice-column-He-loves-impersonal-sex.html#ixzz2QUWiWiFo
01:30:24 <kmc> what have i done
01:30:36 <Bike> right i'm done now
01:30:39 <Bike> back to the mental
01:30:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, i like how ~the autism spectrum~ is, like, a general breakdown of human psychological traits
01:31:07 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: that's because "autism" is a description/pathology of human psychological traits <.<
01:31:39 <Bike> or rather the point of the Pink Floyd diagram is to show how the developmental differences result in different levels for psychological traits
01:31:54 <Bike> mental illness is like that
01:32:12 <Bike> you threaten suicide so they put you on meds that have suicidal ideation as a side effect
01:32:12 <doesthiswork> whats cool to me is that some genes reliably result in autism
01:32:15 <Bike> minds are weird
01:32:17 * Sgeo was diagnosed with Asperger's. At least, according to my dad.
01:32:27 <Sgeo> It was kept a secret from me for a long time.
01:32:30 <Fiora> I think generally "autism" is diagnosed by some more specific symptoms, rather than generalized things? like stimming and the sensitivities and so on
01:32:37 <elliott> Bike: i like how the daily mail has javascript to make people link to the daily mail when they quote them mockingly
01:32:56 <Fiora> I'm not an expert though or anything
01:33:04 <Bike> elliott: i have contributed a twentieth of a cent to their coffers ;_;
01:34:03 <Bike> the major thing to remember about diagnoses i think is that there's a criterion, explicit or implicit (because you wouldn't seek mental help), of "impairs normal function"
01:34:23 <Bike> if you see dancing elephants but still have a fairly normal life you might never walk to the doctor and find out
01:34:51 <elliott> Bike: sort of gets trickier when there are children involved (which i think is the case for the majority of autism diagnoses?)
01:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, there is a rich vein of Sgeo coming to the surface
01:35:13 <Bike> diagnostic criteria aren't some kind of rubric to fulfill, they're basic guidelines for psychiatric professionals to figure out what's good for an individual patient
01:35:21 <Bike> elliott: oh, sure.
01:35:26 <Sgeo> 'Autism' was on ... some paperwork, and when I saw it, my parents said something about them lying to the school to make sure I had services. I thought I only had ADHD. I guess they were both lying to the school and to me...
01:35:29 <pikhq_> Autism, by merit of being a developmental disorder, tends to have much greater *impact* when you're younger.
01:35:41 <Bike> I'm really not comfortable making fun of Sgeo for being autistic, if that's what you're alluding to.
01:36:04 <pikhq_> Like, now I broadly resemble normality for certain definitions thereof.
01:36:12 <pikhq_> But when I was 3 I couldn't speak. At all.
01:36:21 <Fiora> I didn't speak until I was um... about 3 and a half, I think
01:36:24 <doesthiswork> I'm comfortable making fun of Sgeo but I don't know any jokes
01:37:30 <elliott> i like how the world's largest autism charity literally wants to get rid of autistic people
01:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i could talk when i was two but i was, like, raised by a crazy nanny from the highlands
01:37:47 <pikhq_> Yeah, those guys are assholes.
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01:37:58 <Fiora> and they literally have no autistic people working for them
01:38:07 <pikhq_> As a matter of policy no less.
01:38:25 <elliott> Fiora: can't have crazies working for your serious charity obvs
01:38:26 <Sgeo> I had an aspy friend who did stuff for them, I think
01:38:40 <doesthiswork> and just for the record vaccinations have no relation to autism
01:39:11 <pikhq_> doesthiswork: But but thimerosol!
01:39:33 <Sgeo> Does Autism Speaks actually promote anti-vax garbage?
01:39:50 <pikhq_> They're assholes, not utterly ignorant assholes. :P
01:40:20 <Bike> pikhq_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_Speaks#Position_on_vaccines
01:40:22 <elliott> well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_Speaks#Position_on_vaccines
01:40:29 <Bike> (they're utterly ignorant assholes)
01:40:37 <Bike> fuck off elliott
01:40:38 <doesthiswork> Phantom_Hoover: several hundred messages ago is too far to read
01:40:40 <elliott> can i kick you for that (i am asking because i am responsible)
01:40:50 <Bike> elliott: what's my optimal kicked status
01:40:55 <zzo38> I read about Autism Speaks somewhere, and someone made up "Neurotypical Speaks".
01:41:03 <Bike> wow, that sounds even worse!
01:41:11 <elliott> Bike: like maybe half kicked?
01:41:17 <Sgeo> There was a parody site called ISN'T somewhere
01:41:18 <Bike> only one way to find out
01:42:23 <Fiora> they're even worse than I imagined
01:42:42 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.sentex.net/~nexus23/naa_03.html here have a large repository of complaining about such things
01:42:44 <mnoqy> hey guys i havent been paying attention whatd i miss
01:42:56 <pikhq_> Autism and nothing but.
01:43:30 <Sgeo> Sounds more like wasting money than spreading the bad idea?
01:43:33 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: wow, i've never seen "behaviourism" used in that sense...
01:43:52 <mnoqy> pikhq_: sounds miserable
01:44:04 <Bike> Sgeo: as it alludes to, having a big organization taking that shit seriously gives parents more cause to believe that shit.
01:44:04 <pikhq_> Perhaps we should discuss butts instead.
01:44:12 <mnoqy> let's go back to autism :-)
01:44:33 <Fiora> maybe the wonderful stereotypes, like how autistic people don't have empathy
01:44:52 <pikhq_> Oh, those are *grand*.
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01:56:39 <mnoqy> and oklopol backwards is lopolko! who'dve guessed
01:56:50 <Bike> blowin' my mind here
01:57:13 <elliott> Bike: man have you even been around when oklofok has been active. you're missing out on so much cultural enrichment
01:57:18 <FreeFull> How do I make a LIFO data structure in haskell?
01:57:40 <Bike> wait no that's backwards isn't it
01:57:43 <Bike> god i hate the lifo fifo thing
01:58:55 <Bike> http://cvs.haskell.org/Hugs/pages/libraries/base/Data-Sequence.html has enough for queueing, i guess
01:59:30 <kmc> yeah Seq is a fine queue
01:59:36 <Bike> i mean wouldn't it be basically the same as in any language
01:59:37 <kmc> even a fine deque
01:59:59 <kmc> Bike: well in most languages the expectation is that you'd be mutating a structure, not producing a new one
02:00:08 <Bike> yeah but past that.
02:00:19 <kmc> you can make mutating data structures in Haskell, and you can (and should) make persistent immutable data structures in other languages
02:00:23 <kmc> but the default is different
02:00:28 <elliott> Bike: ok bike. i know you're a bicycle
02:00:34 <elliott> but if the url has /Hugs/ in it
02:00:36 <kmc> Bike: it's a pretty deep difference
02:00:38 <elliott> you're linking to something from 2006
02:00:47 <kmc> see Okasaki, _Purely Functional Data Structures_
02:01:02 <elliott> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/containers/0.5.2.1/doc/html/Data-Sequence.html
02:01:07 <Bike> elliott: it's two seconds of googling.
02:01:30 <elliott> you should see the number of people that join #haskell and ask about why they can't find a function in some random ancient version of a package's docs :(
02:01:41 <oerjan> <FreeFull> No, stacks are fifo <-- um no you _are_ getting this backwards.
02:01:44 <kmc> if you want amortized time guarantees on persistent data structures then you actually need laziness in order to avoid duplicating work between different 'timelines'
02:01:55 <kmc> it's kind of neat
02:02:16 <FreeFull> oerjan: If I push something onto a stack
02:02:17 <Bike> elliott: hello, so has glasgow university gone anywhere with that language implementation?
02:02:24 <FreeFull> I get exactly what I just pushed
02:02:31 <elliott> FreeFull: you push 1, you push 2
02:02:32 <kmc> FreeFull: try pushing two things
02:02:36 <Bike> i heard it was lazy
02:02:46 <elliott> you pushed 1 first and it came out last, hence FILO
02:03:02 <Jafet> Bike: they got sold out to microsoft at some point
02:03:06 <Bike> seriously though what's the point of the fifo thing, i learned that in boringclass but i don't think it particularly helped
02:03:08 <elliott> push 1 -> push 2 -> pop (1) -> pop (2) would be FIFO, because you pushed 1 first and got it out first
02:03:10 <Bike> Jafet: micro$oft
02:03:37 <FreeFull> Bike: FIFOs are for buffers and pipes and stuff
02:04:06 <Bike> I know the point. I don't know why you'd move out that description from just general data structure everything.
02:04:21 <FreeFull> Ok, so stacks are LIFOs, what's a simple FIFO
02:04:56 <Jafet> > (++"ue") `iterate` "Q"
02:04:57 <lambdabot> ["Q","Que","Queue","Queueue","Queueueue","Queueueueue","Queueueueueue","Que...
02:06:05 <lambdabot> ["Hue","Hueue","Hueueue","Hueueueue","Hueueueueue","Hueueueueueue","Hueueue...
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02:06:45 <FreeFull> I mean, a cons list is a simple LIFO
02:07:19 <kmc> a singly linked list is basically a stack
02:07:23 <FreeFull> But I can't think of how you'd declare a datastructure that'd be a FIFO
02:07:35 <Bike> doubly linked list, keep both ends
02:07:54 <kmc> yeah, you can't make an efficient immutable structure that way though
02:07:58 <kmc> you have to copy the whole thing on each step
02:08:12 <kmc> a classic immutable/persistent queue structure is composed of two lists
02:08:17 <Bike> i haven't used enough queues to care about how to do it immutably :c
02:08:19 <FreeFull> I don't want to use a list and do two reverses each time or whatever
02:08:43 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/69192/how-to-implement-a-queue-using-two-stacks
02:09:15 <kmc> that basically does an O(n) reverse only once every n operations, so it's amortized O(1)
02:09:36 <kmc> but this doesn't hold up when you're allowed to hang onto an 'old version' of the structure and use it over and over
02:09:40 <oerjan> FreeFull: the finger tree used for immutable (de)que(ues) in Data.Sequence are quite insanely clever, much more complicated than a list. but i've read they're still quite efficient.
02:09:44 <kmc> working around that is basically what Okasaki's book is about
02:09:54 <kmc> for the double list queue, then for more complicated things
02:10:01 <kmc> edwardk has a good talk about finger trees
02:10:39 <elliott> i think the problem with finger trees is that they are boring
02:10:47 <kmc> they're so easy
02:10:47 <elliott> they are good at everything but they're never excitingly good at anything
02:10:56 <FreeFull> elliott: Monads are boring and look at all the hype
02:11:29 <kmc> elliott: dunno I think the annotated ropes in trifecta or whatever are p. exciting
02:11:44 <elliott> well i mean like from an efficiency pov
02:11:49 <kmc> finger tree sequences of big unboxed chunks of text, annotated with source positions and what not
02:13:36 <oerjan> elliott: i was surprised to read that finger trees are more efficient than that pair of lists thing
02:14:33 <oerjan> but basically for anything not efficient with a single list
02:15:57 <Jafet> elliott just can't stand the numbing genericity
02:16:10 <oerjan> which means that there's basically little reason to avoid Data.Sequence
02:16:59 <oerjan> once a single list doesn't fit
02:17:10 <Sgeo> I should learn what finger trees are
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02:17:59 <elliott> Sgeo: http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/articles/monoid-fingertree.html
02:20:08 <Sgeo> apfelmus is pretty awesome
02:20:15 <Sgeo> I should read more of eir articles
02:21:13 <Bike> what's "apfelmus" mean
02:22:54 <Sgeo> what's "Bike" mean
02:23:04 <Bike> it's an abbreviation for "bicycle"
02:23:11 <Bike> so called because it has two cycling wheels
02:23:27 <Sgeo> what's "monqy" mean
02:23:33 <Sgeo> what's "Sgeo" mean
02:23:46 <Bike> dunno about no sgeos, though.
02:23:48 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
02:23:58 <kmc> haskell report says 'The results of exceptional conditions (such as overflow or underflow) on the fixed-precision numeric types are undefined; an implementation may choose error (_|_, semantically), a truncated value, or a special value such as infinity, indefinite, etc.'
02:24:03 <Bike> Gregor: did i just blow your mind
02:24:07 <kmc> does this allow actually Undefined Behavior in the C sense
02:24:12 <Bike> kmc: ieee floats are for suckas
02:24:20 <elliott> kmc: i think that's just implementation-defined behaviour
02:24:28 <kmc> breaking type safety, preceeding code optimized out, flying monkeys out of ass, etc
02:24:33 <kmc> yeah, I think so too
02:24:39 <kmc> Haskell Report is frustratingly vague sometimes
02:24:41 <elliott> kmc: that is very interesting though -- it means Int32 can contain a value representing infinity
02:24:44 <Bike> kmc: well it has a pretty simple list there though
02:24:54 <Bike> truncation, bottom, a special
02:25:11 <Bike> pretty sure that's referring to the special values
02:25:18 <Bike> (language lawyer GO)
02:26:12 <Bike> «(slang) A promiscuous woman; from “the town bike (everybody rides her)”.» btw this is me
02:26:29 <Bike> «(Scotland, Northern England) A nest of wasps or hornets.» wait no this one
02:26:44 <elliott> a promiscuous nest of wasps
02:26:53 <Bike> yes. that is me.
02:26:57 <kmc> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/zip/3739834928.html
02:26:59 <elliott> Gregor: what do you feel your optimal voiced status is right now
02:27:18 <Bike> That's weird though, I woulda thought "bike" would come up in that 18th-century Scottish insect biology book i read
02:28:11 <elliott> Gregor: does that mean I should devoice you for a while and then turn it back on?
02:28:30 <Bike> Maybe you could find someone who's like the anti-gregor, but not entirely, and voice that personinstead of Gregor.
02:28:31 <Jafet> You could mute hackego
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02:29:00 <Bike> kmc: gallons of bees.
02:30:10 <elliott> Bike: wouldn't that be -1v
02:30:23 <Gregor> elliott: Well, how low-quality microwaves at half power level work is by rapidly toggling between fully on and fully off.
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02:30:36 <elliott> Gregor: right but... we can't go too rapid
02:30:36 <Gregor> So I think my +v status should be toggling, say... oh, fifty times a second?
02:30:37 <Bike> elliott: no he's not /entirely/ anti gregor
02:30:44 <Bike> wait i guess you'd need to keep gregor voiced too
02:30:48 <Bike> gosh this is hard
02:30:57 <elliott> who is kind of like gregor
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02:31:13 <oerjan> <Bike> what's "apfelmus" mean <-- mashed apples hth
02:31:35 <elliott> who's not at all like gregor
02:31:37 <Bike> how do you feel about being voiced, conehead
02:31:51 <Bike> elliott: listofoptions
02:31:55 <Bike> (wow, /names is weird)
02:32:02 <conehead> I would find it incredibly strange
02:32:12 <kmc> elliott, Phantom_Hoover: here's case law regarding employers testing for 'intelligence': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.
02:32:13 -!- elliott has set channel mode: +v jix.
02:32:38 <elliott> yes, i feel peace and balance
02:32:52 <Bike> kmc: lol that quote.
02:33:08 <kmc> looks like it's a pretty narrow prohibition, only for 'artificial, arbitrary, and unnecessary barriers to employment when the barriers operate invidiously to discriminate on the basis of racial or other impermissible classification'
02:33:28 <Bike> @wn invidiously
02:33:29 <lambdabot> *** "invidiously" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:33:29 <lambdabot> adv 1: in a manner arousing resentment
02:33:31 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen jix ever
02:33:46 <HackEgo> 2012-06-29 15:54:12: <jix> zzo38: but if you keep the addition and comparision instructions (maybe with an annotation to mark them as belonging together (if llvm does support this)) you wouldn't break existing passes
02:33:57 <Bike> kmc: probably it's not that common to bother administrating IQ tests
02:34:21 <mnoqy> 2012? that's pretty long time ago.
02:34:50 <Bike> kmc: i actually like that majority opinion quite a bit
02:34:56 <kmc> it would be pretty amusing for someone to claim that e.g. algorithms / puzzle questions in programmer interviews are "artificial, arbitrary, and unnecessary"
02:35:20 <kmc> Arousing Resentment is definitely going to be the name of my next band
02:35:24 <Bike> «good intent or absence of discriminatory intent does not redeem employment procedures or testing mechanisms that operate as "built-in headwinds" for minority groups and are unrelated to measuring job capability»
02:36:12 <kmc> i do think the traditional programming interview is hostile to some underrepresented groups
02:36:16 <mnoqy> how do you measure arbitrary
02:36:21 <kmc> not sure if a legal injunction is the right remedy
02:36:29 <kmc> mnoqy: in milliarbitrons
02:36:37 <Bike> probably a culture change
02:36:44 <mnoqy> probably a programming interview is hard with no hands or mouth
02:36:45 <Bike> maybe just get employers out of their own asses?
02:37:17 <Bike> iunno i'm unemployed why would i talk about this
02:37:42 * Sgeo thinks that "it's not what you know it's who you know" should really be fixed
02:37:56 <mnoqy> you're like a job expert now right
02:38:26 <Bike> oh it's definitely a thing.
02:38:30 <Sgeo> How many problems would go away if job interviews were conducted over a chat medium?
02:38:37 <Bike> why do you think you need to provide references?
02:38:39 <Sgeo> With no name but instead an identifier code
02:38:46 <elliott> i would like to proffer the controversial opinion that all of the ills of the world should be corrected, esp. as pertaining to globalised capitalism
02:38:51 <kmc> often some level is, but you really need to know if you can work with this person in person
02:38:57 <elliott> don't hate me for having unpopular opinions!!!
02:39:12 <Bike> elliott: do you have a newsletter i can subscribe to
02:39:25 <elliott> Bike: irc://irc.freenode.net/esoteric
02:39:34 <mnoqy> do you have a radio program
02:39:41 <Bike> Sgeo: of course that wouldn't fix the proble of people from some backgrounds not applying at all
02:40:03 <Bike> i considered making another connection to freenode but that would be a shitty joke.
02:40:05 * Sgeo ... has never thought of that
02:40:14 <mnoqy> advertize it as being a fun time for everyone? see everything has a solution
02:40:21 <Bike> Sgeo: i bet CableVision doesn't get a lot of nicaraguan applicants, you know?
02:40:26 <mnoqy> you can make, like, a mural
02:40:30 <Sgeo> Just of eliminating subconsious discrimination during the interview process
02:40:33 <elliott> chat is also not necessarily better for everyone
02:40:33 <mnoqy> representing people of every minority group
02:40:46 <elliott> just as in-person interviews with a white board are not necessarily good for everyone
02:40:50 <mnoqy> and in rainbow letters you can say
02:40:54 <Bike> `rainbow DIVERSITY
02:41:07 <Bike> i have no idea how hackego works. srry
02:41:08 <kmc> Bike: re hostile to some groups, I think one problem is that programming jobs are typically advertised as "ARE YOU THE BADDEST MOTHERFUCKING HAXOR OF ALL TIME?!? WELL PROVE IT!" and this is a huge turn-off to anyone who's already dealing with impostor syndrome due to membership in a underrepresented group
02:41:18 <mnoqy> "it doesn't matter if you're weird. we love everyone."
02:41:22 <Sgeo> elliott, hmm. Was thinkng too that maybe some sort of intermediary. So that broken English, if it is still understandable, is not discriminated against
02:41:30 <Bike> kmc: ha, ha, twenty somethings?
02:41:40 <Bike> `run echo diversity | rainbow
02:41:46 <mnoqy> peopl;e can type perfectly broken just look at anyone ever who types broken
02:41:51 <Bike> that's pretty blue, hackego.
02:41:55 <elliott> Sgeo: do you have a perfectly spherical cow to go with your unbiased, incorruptible intermediary :P
02:41:57 <kmc> so the remedy there is both fixing the culture to remove this dumb marketing, but also fixing the educational pipeline so that confidence is more fairly distributed
02:42:31 <Bike> Sgeo: i hope you don't need to be told how negative non-prestige English can be seen, no matter how understandable
02:42:37 <elliott> kmc: i'm the baddest motherfucking haxor of all time. god damn i am bad at hacking. please hire me for sucking
02:43:02 <Sgeo> Bike, hence a person in between who fixes non-prestige English into prestige English
02:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i feel like impostor system is symptomatic of a bunch of broader cultural factors than just general equality
02:43:13 <kmc> this is one reason why i <3 OpenHatch, they organize a lot of events that are about helping new people contribute to open source, in a super welcoming environment
02:43:14 <mnoqy> but if it's not marketed for rockstars & ninjas who will we get off on making fun of
02:43:18 <kmc> https://openhatch.org/
02:43:19 <kmc> good people
02:43:22 <Bike> wow that's just a weird thing there, i don't even know how to respond to that.
02:43:26 <elliott> anyway i repeat my previous line
02:43:27 <kmc> you should all donate and get the baby penguin shirt
02:43:31 <Bike> mnoqy: imo The Masses
02:43:49 <Bike> (fuckers the lot)
02:43:52 <kmc> shachaf: you should send Sgeo that story
02:43:54 <mnoqy> hm, you may be onto something
02:43:54 <elliott> a perfectly impartial white-person-ifier to go in the middle is... not what i would call a solution
02:44:10 <elliott> especially since it's not as if all problems are going to magically go away post-interview
02:44:12 <kmc> imo just wear whiteface to job interviews, problem solved right
02:44:41 <mnoqy> send in a robot to interview for you. robots can sound white right
02:44:51 <Bike> wow that would be depressing. also i suppose it's sort of the norm, for certain values of "whiteface"
02:44:54 <kmc> stuff white robots like
02:45:05 <kmc> (btw stuff white people like is super racist, which sucks because it's funny :/)
02:45:18 <Bike> there's this tumblr blog "nasty shit white people eat"
02:45:28 <Bike> and i've seen at least four posts that are native Mexican or whatever
02:45:45 <Bike> fighting the good fight
02:46:02 <Bike> (i'm not sure if i'd eat burritos with mashed potatoes in them unprompted, though)
02:46:15 <mnoqy> internet wars about whether racism against whites is racism are pretty pathetic, imo
02:46:39 <Sgeo> kmc, what story?
02:46:49 <kmc> i don't have the link
02:46:56 <kmc> mnoqy: it's not that it's racist against whites
02:47:09 <mnoqy> racism against everyone else too
02:47:11 <kmc> it's that it's implicitly racist against non-whites by claiming that reading and culture and such are white things
02:47:14 <mnoqy> racism in the large
02:47:28 <mnoqy> oh is it one of those blogs
02:47:34 <mnoqy> see i was expecting it to be like
02:47:42 <mnoqy> (stuff white people like) picture of idk something gross
02:48:03 <elliott> its a "arent we white people so funny" thing
02:48:04 <kmc> it's really "stuff upper middle class urbanites like"
02:48:19 <mnoqy> isn't that "classist" though
02:48:32 <Bike> can't it just be shitty. it's shitty how about that
02:48:43 <Sgeo> Short of... some sort of panel doing interviews instead of a single person... actually, maybe that's a good idea?
02:48:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:48:56 <doesthiswork> does anyone know why white people smell like dogs when they get wet? google doesn't help me here
02:48:56 <Bike> Sgeo: i believe that's the procedure for grad school
02:48:59 <Bike> "that works well, right"
02:49:13 <elliott> Sgeo: i don't really get this sole focus on the interview process
02:49:14 <mnoqy> doesthiswork: chemistry and also biology, probably
02:49:43 <Bike> doesthiswork: it's an adaptation of our savannah ancestors to drive off predators
02:49:47 <elliott> Gregor: maybe de-voice jix by now? do you think it's been long enough
02:50:14 <Bike> anyway the culture thing reminds me that the "[x] people lack history" is probably the racist thing that most infuriates me (as a white person this is an important opinion to have etc etc)
02:50:26 <FreeFull> Seems TChan was what I wanted all along anyway
02:50:38 <kmc> FreeFull: good choice
02:50:44 <kmc> if you want a mutable channel for use inside STM
02:50:59 <kmc> if you're not using STM then there's plain Chan
02:51:19 <kmc> if you find that every line is (atomically $ somePrimitiveTChanOperation) then consider using plain Chan
02:51:23 <mnoqy> Bike: do people say that
02:51:24 <kmc> ok cool beans
02:52:01 <Bike> mnoqy: back in the colonial days it was pretty common of europeans to claim that africa had been basically the same for thousands of years and had had nothing worth writing down
02:52:10 <doesthiswork> I'm sure I'm not the first to say this but sinfest just isn't funny anymore
02:52:39 <Bike> A webcomic about a webcomic author struggling to deal with his past transgressions
02:52:40 <doesthiswork> http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=1]
02:52:50 <doesthiswork> http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=1
02:53:18 <elliott> thanks for... offering your opinion
02:53:23 <mnoqy> when does it get funny
02:53:30 <FreeFull> doesthiswork: When was sinfest funny?
02:53:39 <mnoqy> where does "sinfest" appear
02:54:19 <mnoqy> Bike: that wasn't funny
02:54:27 <mnoqy> were you pulling a joke on me
02:54:54 <doesthiswork> bike: achebe reported an anecdote indicating that the english people still don't think africa has history.
02:55:22 <Bike> doesthiswork: yeah it's definitely still around, it was just more explicit back then (as usual with racism, i guess)
02:55:30 <kmc> as Bike pointed out, many wikipedia history articles are like "natives lived here for thousands of years AND THEN WHITE PEOPLE SHOWED UP <remainder of article about is white people>"
02:55:32 <mnoqy> so are we racisting about "these people are racist" now
02:55:51 <mnoqy> "we" as a humanity
02:56:00 <Bike> racisting all night long, baby.
02:56:19 <mnoqy> and "people" as in like singular of "peoples"
02:56:39 <Bike> yeah i have no idea what you're saying monqy, srry
02:57:29 <doesthiswork> according the strunk the proper plural of person is persons
02:57:34 <Bike> @tell taneb you like english right http://25.media.tumblr.com/341dfc90a788592e8634c9942b186d42/tumblr_ml9yj4I2aA1qhcj5zo1_500.gif
02:58:04 <mnoqy> what does that have to do with english
02:58:13 <Bike> his name is english.
02:58:15 <mnoqy> cute wiggle though
02:58:58 <Bike> "Rollership/ The revolutionary way/ evolution/ magazine empire /pirate radio/ television channel/ gallery/ encyclopedia/ library/ The Utopians Guide to the Galaxy/ encyclopedia kosmica/ sonic screwdriver of knowledge...about 10,700entries."
02:59:22 <kmc> put down the bong Bike
02:59:51 <Bike> holy shit this blog has a hit counter
03:00:09 <kmc> <Bike> holy shit this bong has a hit counter
03:00:53 <Bike> https://twitter.com/OTPGlobal/status/266077784974163968/photo/1/large i've hit the jackpot here
03:01:09 <Bike> i wrote a quick post about some leaked diplomatic cables from ulaanbaatar and now i am stoned as hell
03:01:46 <kmc> stupid future
03:02:04 <Bike> they're even against water fluoridation
03:02:07 <mnoqy> Bike: what a picture
03:02:22 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/b60cae94c4bd65d1f61e7b8a21e60915/tumblr_ml8tlzyv3D1qkwdrko1_1280.jpg wake up sheeple
03:04:41 <elliott> i like how the swastika is on top of hitler
03:04:51 <elliott> thus combining the potent comparisons of nazism, and nazism
03:05:21 <Bike> well what if you didn't recognize him. it could be any old guy. but nope with this it's BAM nazifella
03:05:42 <mnoqy> double nazism just to be sure
03:06:32 <kmc> oh yeah the anti-flouride person who posted to the noisebridge list claimed that ALCOA was a subsidiary of I.G. Farben
03:06:41 <kmc> which would be... remarkable
03:06:58 <Sgeo> I don't know what either of those things is
03:07:16 <kmc> Alcoa is a big aluminum company in the US
03:07:30 <Bike> this person had another post that said that now your potatoes could be handled by people wearing protective gear whether you like it or not which obviously tops anything else so i stopped
03:07:36 <elliott> do americans really pronounce aluminium as aloominum
03:07:46 <elliott> like i know they do in bugs bunny cartoons
03:08:06 <Bike> well, i do, and i am america
03:08:06 <kmc> I.G. Farben was a German chemical conglomorate that was involved in numerous crimes against humanity during the Third Reich and was disbanded by the allied occupation govt (we used their big headquarters building as the occupation hq)
03:08:22 <Bike> but i spell it "aluminium" because that's the IUPAC recommendation
03:08:27 <Bike> i'm just a shitfucker, i think
03:08:36 <elliott> kmc: i like the idea that they were disbanded just so the building could be used
03:08:43 <kmc> they had a bunch of chemical plants using slave labour (one down the road from Auschwitz-Birkenau)
03:09:07 <kmc> also they manufactured zyklon b
03:09:44 <Bike> I think it's "interesting" how there are like japanese health companies founded by unit 731 members, though
03:10:29 <kmc> also some of the Americans who testified at the Nuremberg Trials ended up running parts of MKULTRA and other unethical human experimentation programs
03:11:12 <kmc> victors' justice :/
03:12:44 <Sgeo> https://soundcloud.com/eutechnik/dialup
03:13:23 <kmc> Sgeo: http://windytan.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-sound-of-dialup-pictured.html
03:13:54 <Sgeo> Listen to my link anyway >.>
03:15:28 <Bike> dyuu dyuuty, NRRRRRRR
03:16:18 <elliott> but i don't want to do my duty bike
03:16:45 <FreeFull> If I have a transaction where I have modifyTVar count (subtract 1) followed by a blocking call, and other transactions depend on count being larger than 0, should I block before the modifyTVar or will I not get in trouble and the transaction will retry?
03:17:09 <kmc> the whole transaction happens atomically
03:17:19 <kmc> it's impossible for code outside that transaction to observe the intermediate state
03:17:29 <kmc> what do you mean by 'blocking call' though
03:17:31 <FreeFull> The blocking only occurs if count is 0
03:17:58 <FreeFull> kmc: The thread stops doing anything until something is put in a TChan
03:18:09 <kmc> that's fine though
03:18:25 <kmc> like i said, other code can't observe the intermediate state
03:18:38 <kmc> you can think of it like, if it reaches that point and finds the TChan is empty, it aborts the transaction and retries from the beginning
03:18:40 <copumpkin> kmc: think you'll ever come back to haskell-land?
03:18:44 <kmc> except it's more efficient than that
03:18:48 <kmc> copumpkin: dunno
03:19:10 <kmc> FreeFull: and I'm not sure if this kind of operational thinking is useful, or if one should just take the guarantees of 'atomically' as given
03:19:12 <Sgeo> Why, what is kmc doing?
03:19:22 <kmc> Sgeo: I haven't done much haskelly stuff lately
03:19:23 <Bike> talking about haskell outside of #haskell?
03:19:30 <kmc> i'm probably not returning to #haskell unless it's changed a lot
03:19:31 <FreeFull> kmc: Ah, so it retries once the TChan has something, assuming another transaction doesn't make the TChan empty again
03:19:51 <kmc> not that it's necessarily horrible and nobody should go there, but, i've put in my time :)
03:20:09 <FreeFull> So I should just learn not to worry
03:20:27 <kmc> yeah, the beauty of STM :)
03:20:30 <FreeFull> and check (c > 0) is unnecessary
03:20:51 <Sgeo> kmc, what do you think about School of Haskell>
03:20:54 <elliott> kmc: i think #haskell is on the road to recovery a bit
03:21:09 <kmc> FreeFull: if it helps you can look at the implementation of TChan in terms of TVars: http://lambda.haskell.org/hp-tmp/docs/2011.2.0.0/packages/stm-2.2.0.1/doc/html/src/Control-Concurrent-STM-TChan.html
03:21:09 <elliott> or at least I'd like to think it is and try to make it so
03:21:13 <kmc> 'might not help tho'
03:21:15 <kmc> elliott: how so?
03:22:03 <elliott> well, my impression is that some of the common problems are recognised better and that there are people sick enough of them to try and shut them down when they appear. also, there are more active ops now
03:22:16 <elliott> it can still be pretty awful mind :P
03:22:16 <kmc> also you're an op
03:22:26 <elliott> yes, as I said, it can still be pretty awful
03:22:30 <kmc> elliott rules with an iron fist
03:22:49 <Bike> /cs clear users
03:22:53 <elliott> i've restrained myself from kicking like five people!!
03:23:06 <mnoqy> how many of them are cheater
03:23:53 <mnoqy> how many of them are the people behind cheater
03:23:57 <FreeFull> kmc: Hmm, I didn't expect TVarList
03:24:41 <kmc> it's the same deal as plain chan I think: http://lambda.haskell.org/hp-tmp/docs/2011.2.0.0/ghc-doc/libraries/base-4.3.1.0/src/Control-Concurrent-Chan.html
03:24:54 <kmc> two 'pointers' into a linked list of vars
03:25:02 <kmc> one for reading, one for writing
03:25:45 <kmc> by 'linked list of vars' i mean data ChItem a = ChItem a (MVar (ChItem a))
03:26:52 <kmc> than what?
03:27:36 <kmc> and it gives you the blocking behavior you need
03:27:42 <kmc> where reads from an empty queue block
03:28:13 <kmc> it's not always more efficient though... I know Simon Marlow profiled a bunch of different data structures for the GHC IO manager and found that an IORef holding a pure data structure was best
03:28:26 <kmc> partly due to the fact that atomicModifyIORef is a lockless pointer swap
03:28:42 <kmc> that's also why you can't really have a strict atomicModifyIORef
03:29:41 <FreeFull> You could make the blocking behaviour explicit in readTChan anyway
03:29:46 <kmc> probably, yeah
03:30:03 <kmc> it's easy in STM because you can just 'retry' whenever
03:30:08 <kmc> it's harder for plain Chan i think
03:30:15 <elliott> is today americans doing their taxes day
03:30:20 <elliott> there seems to be a lot of that going on
03:30:28 <elliott> what's a tax. what's a taxes
03:30:38 <kmc> it has to be in the mail by the end of Monday
03:30:41 <Fiora> I finished my taxes today yay
03:30:59 <FreeFull> kmc: Don't MVars have blocking behaviour too
03:31:30 <FreeFull> Seems to be what Chan relies on
03:31:59 <elliott> i don't even know what doing taxes entails
03:32:04 <elliott> except for lots of forms and presumably being bored
03:32:16 <FreeFull> I think I actually finished writing the code a while ago
03:34:19 <kmc> elliott: it involves ticking a lot of boxes for random crap
03:34:20 <kmc> No, I did not renovate a septic system last year. No, I did not invent any medical devices. No, I did not donate more than 30% of my adjusted gross income to a cemetery.
03:34:32 <elliott> man I did ALL those things
03:34:56 <kmc> come to america then
03:34:58 <kmc> we like your kind
03:35:16 <elliott> imo i don't like your kind
03:35:38 <Sgeo> * sucks, * -> * is better
03:36:03 <kmc> oh i get it
03:36:05 <FreeFull> Making new TChans and stuff somehow makes me uneasy inside, despite knowing the garbage collector will get rid of anything once it's inaccessible
03:36:09 <elliott> by your kind i mean generalised america i think
03:36:20 <FreeFull> I blame being used to C memory alloc =P
03:36:57 <FreeFull> My brain just goes "Ooh, I'm making a new thing, gotta free it once I'm done"
03:38:47 <FreeFull> Testing code always a good idea
03:38:48 <oerjan> you need to put count in the type system hth
03:39:04 <Bike> Fiora: just got confirmation that the carry flag is used in the sbcl runtime for marking multiple values
03:39:19 <elliott> Bike talked to the sbcl officials
03:39:34 <elliott> oerjan: how will gregor's voice be maintained if my connection drops????
03:39:50 <Bike> just talked to the "wtf is going on" officials
03:40:03 <elliott> oerjan: IMO this is unacceptable
03:40:36 <FreeFull> oerjan: I wonder how a type system would interact with STM
03:40:44 <Bike> I'm forced to agree with elliott, the voice status of that greg guy is fucking paramount
03:42:10 <oerjan> FreeFull: it was hafajoke, although i'm not sure it's impossible
03:42:21 <coppro> and why doesn't he have voice
03:42:30 <Bike> THE PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW OERJAN
03:42:33 <Bike> http://i.minus.com/ikfmGW73AeBn0.gif this is greg
03:42:34 <FreeFull> oerjan: I would try it if I was working in idris right now
03:42:43 <FreeFull> http://dpaste.org/myaGO/ What I was working on
03:42:54 <FreeFull> Exercise from some pdf on the web
03:43:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o elliott.
03:45:45 <elliott> oerjan: no, this is awful. i was trying to maintain +½v harmony.
03:45:52 <elliott> now the lack of oscillation capability results in +2v.
03:46:01 <elliott> this solution was approved by Gregor himself
03:46:04 <Bike> no i like this
03:46:09 <Bike> jix should just be voiced forever
03:46:18 <oerjan> elliott: /msg chanserv access list #esoteric hth
03:46:44 <Bike> your beautiful
03:46:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v jix.
03:47:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
03:47:35 <elliott> oerjan: i find this method of enforcing universal balance worryingly indirect. i may have to take drastic measures and make you a wiki admin.
03:48:07 <Bike> man i love places with different power distributions in related places
03:48:34 <kmc> that is a strangely abstract statement
03:48:56 <kmc> are you referring to the fact that the Northeast Corridor uses 60 Hz power north of the Hell Gate Bridge and 25 Hz power south of it?
03:48:59 <Bike> like on another channel i've been forbidden from ever having ops, but i have mod status on a channel site
03:49:04 <Bike> yes that's what i meant
03:49:08 <Bike> wtf is Hell Gate.
03:49:14 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Gate_Bridge
03:49:26 <kmc> it's a narrow tidal strait in the East River in New York City in the United States
03:49:32 <Bike> uh it says bridge right there
03:49:36 <Bike> oh, is it shitty to navigate?
03:49:46 <kmc> 'The name "Hell Gate" is a corruption of the Dutch phrase Hellegat, which could mean either "hell's hole" or "bright gate/passage"'
03:49:54 <kmc> slightly ambiguous
03:50:17 <elliott> The bridge would be the last New York City bridge to collapse if humans disappeared, taking at least a millennium to do so, according to the February 2005 issue of Discover magazine. Most other bridges would fall in about 300 years.[6]
03:50:24 <kmc> In 1851 the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers began to clear obstacles from the strait with explosives; the process would last seventy years
03:50:27 <kmc> that must be fun to watch
03:50:42 <Bike> weakass bridges
03:51:55 <kmc> [.. CSX ..]
03:52:01 <elliott> hm what do you do if you want to set a temporary ban for join/quit spam
03:52:06 <elliott> but are afraid you'll forget to remove it
03:52:16 <kmc> use a client that doesn't suck hth
03:53:03 <Bike> elliott: /knockout?
03:53:43 <elliott> is there a way to do it without the kick
03:54:06 <Bike> uhhhhh probably but i don't know it
03:54:18 <Bike> refer to previous comment about being forbbiden from ops
03:55:01 <kmc> knockout gas
03:55:22 <elliott> Bike, remind me to remove it in like half an hour.
03:55:27 <Bike> alright got it
03:55:33 <Bike> i will be your irssi
03:55:33 <kmc> fentanyl gas
03:57:48 <kmc> fentanyl gas in your ass
03:58:23 <elliott> Bike: why were you forbidden from ops
03:58:38 <elliott> i want to find out. oerjan op Bike
03:58:41 <FreeFull> Should I try to get an hour of sleep?
03:58:58 <Bike> elliott: i think i may be "the elliott" in this other channel, so to speak
03:59:35 <elliott> "the elliott" is a positive phrase denoting coolness & affability
03:59:45 <elliott> & running yer fuckin wiki for you ungrateful assholes
03:59:47 <Bike> but also inexplicably banned from ops by "the oerjan"
03:59:57 <elliott> i wish you could have seen the wiki before i got my hands on it, Bike!!
04:00:02 <elliott> the recent changes was like
04:00:04 <Bike> when was that?
04:00:06 <elliott> literally filled with spam deletions
04:00:12 <elliott> it was all deleted by ais523 who is a workaholic
04:00:16 <Bike> i mean i've read esolang articles for years
04:00:23 <elliott> but the actual deletion logs clogged out everything
04:00:44 <elliott> and nobody else offered to take it over but elliott, saviour & defender of all that is good
04:00:44 <oerjan> elliott: so pretty much like now, right?
04:01:17 <elliott> oerjan: you know what's going to happen now, don't you.
04:01:27 <Bike> even i know what's going to happen now and i'm high
04:01:41 <elliott> oerjan: is this your secret plan to get wiki adminship
04:01:47 <coppro> what's going to happen :(
04:01:53 <oerjan> but i'm afraid i cannot really help against the block logs clogging recent changes.
04:01:54 <elliott> i'm seeing through the meta-layers here, oerjan
04:02:18 <Bike> coppro: the goat will release the fourth seal
04:02:28 <elliott> Bike: btw February 2012 apparently
04:02:37 <Bike> mount g will erupt with the screams of demons, who will cover the earth like locusts
04:02:57 <Bike> a third of Man will die in unimaginable pain in the ensuing war
04:03:25 <oerjan> Bike: i suggest not reading revelations hth
04:03:39 <elliott> oerjan: actually i know what's going to happen. you're going to op me and i am going to kick you for that insult
04:04:03 <Bike> oerjan i bet that would h more if you were a wiki admin
04:04:24 <oerjan> Bike: but only elliott can upgrade the wiki hth
04:05:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v oerjan.
04:05:39 <Bike> oh damn! daaaaamn! daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn
04:05:49 <kmc> when ops is outlawed only outlaws will have ops
04:06:13 <Bike> kmc: i believe that's the premise of ircnet
04:13:24 <elliott> Bike: has it been half an hour yet
04:14:09 <Bike> doesn't it undermine the point of me being your irssi if you have to check
04:14:34 <zzo38> On channel names starting with + no modes (including ops) are allowed.
04:15:32 <elliott> Bike: i'm anxious!!!!!!!!!
04:15:42 <zzo38> There are also channel types ! meaning that the servers add a hidden prefix to disallow takeovers due to server splits, and & meaning that the channel is local to one server and is not repeated.
04:16:28 <zzo38> Channel type # might be vulnerable to takeovers due to netsplits, but !&+ are all immune to that problem, for different reasons.
04:23:11 <Bike> elliott: ok go for it quick!!
04:27:14 <zzo38> Maybe HTTP code 418 should be defined as a more generalized than "I'm a teapot"?
04:27:31 <elliott> Bike: sorry, i'm going by whenever copumpkin removes it in -blah now
04:28:13 -!- Bike has left.
04:28:31 <elliott> copumpkin: i was using bike as an egg timer to remove that joinquit spam ban in #haskell
04:31:00 <kmc> itt zzo38 is a teapot
04:52:36 <pikhq_> zzo38: Nah, it should be more specific.
04:52:44 <pikhq_> "I'm a little teapot".
04:54:49 -!- Bike has joined.
04:56:18 <Fiora> Bike: that is so cool
04:56:20 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
04:57:05 <shachaf> elliott: How come you're not an op?
04:57:17 <Bike> it's also pretty obvious from looking at disassemblies of trivial functions
04:57:22 <Bike> so, i'm dumb, etc
04:57:45 <shachaf> Is it because you were abusing op powers and also giving the wrong people voice?
04:57:45 <elliott> Fiora: Bike: ok what are you talking about
04:57:53 <elliott> shachaf: i still have voice powers
04:57:56 <Bike> a lisp implementaton
04:58:02 <Bike> nothing interesting to you!
04:58:12 <shachaf> maybe kmc means i should send Sgeo a link to that story
04:58:15 <elliott> don't paint me as some kind of extremist!
04:58:19 <shachaf> but you haven't even read it yet
04:58:36 <Bike> some kind of sbclist
04:58:51 <Bike> hm this leads to a question
04:58:58 <Bike> is the ghc source comprehensible by mortals
04:59:12 <Bike> right i thought so
04:59:14 <elliott> the typechecker is just a few thousand lines of code or whatever
04:59:26 <elliott> the whole thing including all the ridiculous OS support twiddles and so on is 100k lines I think?
04:59:40 <elliott> but the part that does the actual compiling isn't quite as scary.
04:59:41 <pikhq_> That's rather a lot better than GCC.
04:59:42 <shachaf> Is that including the RTS?
04:59:50 <pikhq_> I'd be surprised if its C++ parser is that size.
04:59:54 <shachaf> Bike: http://www.aosabook.org/en/ghc.html
05:00:09 <Bike> hm i forgot how to get line counts of directories, i suck at unix
05:00:18 <shachaf> elliott: according to that it was 140,000 compiler and 50,000 rts
05:00:20 <Bike> shachaf: i still haven't read that book :(
05:00:34 <elliott> but a lot of that is the code generator backends
05:00:47 <shachaf> well did those even "exist in 200111"
05:00:55 <elliott> the actual "haskell" parts are like 4k+4k+24k+7k
05:01:22 <Bike> in the grim darkness of glasgow
05:01:34 <elliott> "GHC has a complex build system, which today comprises about 6,000 lines of GNU make code."
05:01:53 <Bike> does anyone actually understand makefiles anymore
05:02:04 -!- augur has joined.
05:02:22 <Bike> anyway i asked because sbcl's source code is basically incomprehensible. parts of it are older than me, it's a weird feeling
05:02:36 <Bike> ok but ur a freek
05:03:45 <elliott> Bike: well parts of GHC might be older than you.
05:04:14 <Bike> oh ghc is like 1990 too
05:04:19 <Bike> god everything is old
05:04:25 <Bike> i should use something hip and new
05:04:25 <elliott> "Peyton Jones, as well as Simon Marlow, later moved to Microsoft Research in Cambridge, England, where they continue to be primarily responsible for developing GHC."
05:04:29 <elliott> wikipedia is out of date!!!!!!
05:04:50 <shachaf> elliott: smarlow is retired and he's still primarily responsible for developing ghc
05:04:51 <Bike> peyton is a weird name
05:05:12 <Bike> marlow well he should write plays
05:05:43 <shachaf> hey who wants to know the "full name" of spj
05:06:36 <Bike> peyton is still weirdest
05:07:33 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v oerjan.
05:07:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v oerjan.
05:08:01 <elliott> oh no. there are gremlins.
05:08:30 <elliott> oerjan: you know, all I need is +ARfiorst.
05:08:40 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you need +ARfiorst
05:08:44 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i didn't really intend to deop elliott but chanserv did it automatically when i gave him the +v flag
05:08:58 <elliott> oerjan: i can think of a fine way to make up for that mistake!!!
05:09:24 -!- shachaf has set topic: everyone's caught on to everything you do | is mnoqy rye? 'course he is! | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:10:31 <shachaf> does the mn in mnoqy stand for minnesota
05:11:25 <shachaf> hey have you considered that
05:11:48 <shachaf> maybe it needs to be sorted
05:12:02 <shachaf> mnoqy: very good mr mister! very good
05:12:58 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
05:13:17 <shachaf> oerjan: Where does Ørjan live?
05:14:24 <oerjan> he keeps moving to escape my assassins, the impolite scoundrel
05:15:51 <shachaf> Well, there's norway he's in the same country as you.
05:16:28 <fizzie> Presumably the good Ørjan lives either in the North or South, while the wicked oerjan lives in the West or East.
05:16:29 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:18:22 <fizzie> @tell Phantom_Hoover oklopol is real if you just believe.
05:18:37 <elliott> fizzie: i have been stripped of my rightful Gregor-neutralising powers
05:19:12 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v fizzie.
05:19:32 <elliott> thankfully, oerjan = sqrt(fizzie) + Gregor / i.
05:19:37 <elliott> so balance is temporarily kept.
05:19:47 <fizzie> ChanServ: Why do you keep DOING it.
05:19:50 <elliott> (this is the mathematics of universal balance.)
05:20:23 <coppro> euler's formula has nothing on that
05:20:26 * Bike counts on his fingers
05:20:31 <coppro> elliott, what should I call that wonderful formula?
05:20:41 <Bike> that means like... what does that mean
05:20:44 <Bike> i think there's a one
05:27:33 <shachaf> Hmm, people actually say "god bless you" when you sneeze?
05:27:45 <shachaf> I don't know that I've heard the three-word version before.
05:28:10 <Bike> saint francis of assissi bless you
05:37:02 <oerjan> fizzie: happy birthday!
05:37:45 <oerjan> assuming he didn't lie in the logs yesterday
05:38:20 <oerjan> and everyone knows fizzie never lies
05:39:50 -!- doesthiswork has left.
05:40:09 <oerjan> i don't know how many years he is, though
05:41:35 <elliott> i shall celebrate by making oerjan a wiki admin
05:41:56 <shachaf> how about celebrating by making me a wiki dictator
05:43:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Wikiwiki).
05:48:13 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/oerjan
05:48:34 <elliott> so wikipedia's favicon changed.
05:48:41 <Bike> the fucking apocalypse
05:49:02 <shachaf> Bike: wait, is *that* how the world ends?
05:49:13 <shachaf> i thought i heard something about fire and/or ice
05:49:57 <Bike> not with a bang but with a favicon
05:51:23 <kmc> http://www.marxists.org/favicon.ico
05:51:43 <Bike> is it bad that i'm used to that one
05:52:41 <Sgeo> What's the deal with everyone using .ico format?
05:52:47 <Sgeo> I thought that was a Windows thing
05:53:07 <zzo38> I never use favicons so I won't care
05:53:09 <kmc> some browsers (cough cough IE) only accept .ico format for favicons
05:53:28 <zzo38> But yes .ico is mainly Windows
05:53:36 <kmc> Sgeo: and originally you could only specify one by putting it at /favicon.ico
05:53:44 <shachaf> ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?where quonochrom
05:53:45 <lambdabot> monochrom says: There are truths, damn truths, and Kripke structures.
05:53:47 <kmc> but now there's a <link> tag for it, and you can use any format with most browsers
05:54:02 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to icfp 2013
05:54:37 <shachaf> are you doing icfpcontest 2013
05:55:07 <kmc> i haven't done one yet
05:55:38 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Cya later).
05:56:07 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:56:17 <kmc> ~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover
05:56:28 <kmc> the sausage king of Chicago
05:57:32 -!- Bike has joined.
05:57:59 <Bike> http://www.teapartyinspace.org/ y'all ready for this
05:59:40 <elliott> i am trying to go to sleep
06:00:22 <Bike> maybe you should have told me to tell you to sleep first
06:00:33 <shachaf> instead of that how would you like to read comments of the worst commenter on reddit
06:00:47 <Bike> that's a pretty bad commenter
06:00:50 <shachaf> (the sad part is that he's not the worst commenter on reddit)
06:00:51 <Bike> i'm actually curious
06:01:08 <Bike> ok Part Two is this a programming/haskell thing or more broad, badcommenter-wise
06:01:34 <Bike> how ambiguous.
06:02:50 -!- Bike_ has joined.
06:06:06 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
06:13:22 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
06:15:26 <fizzie> (Maybe "right" is not the right word. "Correct.")
06:15:44 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
06:16:10 <elliott> fizzie: you know what makes you feel youthful? making other people ops. science fact.
06:18:09 <Fiora> oh, it's your birthday? :o
06:18:26 <elliott> fizzie: i have an alternate request: make it not quarter past seven.
06:18:32 <elliott> fizzie: choose whichever you prefer
06:18:35 <fizzie> Fiora: It's why I started looking at all those birth-date coincidencies in the first place.
06:18:47 <fizzie> elliott: Okay, it's now quarter past nine. (Here.)
06:18:51 <kmc> happy fizzie day
06:18:54 <Fiora> happy fizzie day :3
06:19:20 <elliott> fizzie: THAT IS THE WRONG WAY
06:19:22 <fizzie> I know there's all kind of crisises supposed to happen at even years, does 30 have one of them?
06:20:13 <fizzie> I don't know what the signs are, though.
06:20:24 <elliott> crisis: you discover you are a speech recognition researcher
06:20:51 <HackEgo> 672) <shachaf> fizzie: What kind of speech recognition do you do? <shachaf> If you only need to recognize famous speeches, like Churchill or something, it should be pretty easy.
06:21:23 <Bike> that made me laugh a lot, weirdly
06:21:33 <fizzie> I'm going to celebrate fizzie day by having an old man put scissors in my mouth, it sounds like the best. (They're removing some stitches.)
06:21:35 <mnoqy> thanks shachaf, for the good times & laughter
06:21:47 <HackEgo> 427) <monqy> itidus20: i saw a dancing cgi skeleton named malaria. i danced and played with him. \ 508) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell \ 385) <monqy> it was a wonderful dream
06:21:58 <HackEgo> 697) <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you wrote a Haskell book, I would read it and possibly provide classical criticism. <shachaf> That is to say, non-constructive. \ 942) <kmc> shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l <kmc> Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer <kmc> Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler <kmc> "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs" i thin
06:22:13 <HackEgo> 942) <kmc> shachaf: LC_ALL=de_DE.utf-8 errno -l <kmc> Veraltete NFS-Dateizugriffsnummer <kmc> Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler <kmc> "Unterbrechung während des Betriebssystemaufrufs" i think that was in the Ring Cycle
06:22:29 <Bike> for some reason it reminds me of this book of Famous Speeches at biztown
06:22:37 <HackEgo> 628) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 889) <olsner> shachaf: contrary to common belief, #esoteric is not really "a channel for crazy people", but has (ostensibly) a topic... is beaky from finland? \ 865) <sgeo> G
06:22:50 <HackEgo> 857) <Bike> "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account" \ 1006) <shachaf> Bike: I think you're ready to learn about lens. <Bike> oh god <Bike> fiora help somebody help <Bike> anybody \ 917) <shachaf> Taneb: STOP TRYING TO GET LENS INTO EVERYTHING <shachaf> Bike: You should use lens! <Taneb> NEVER <Bike
06:23:06 <fizzie> "You should get kmc in this channel" oh if only we had known!
06:23:10 <Bike> eventually it transpires that i am lens
06:23:23 <Fiora> fizzie: isn't the rule that like, the even ones are good, the odd ones are bad
06:24:22 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't think I've heard of that one. I suppose it means the actual birth is one of the good ones.
06:24:32 <kmc> i'm only here because of cheater really
06:24:33 * Fiora was making a bad joke, sorry
06:24:37 <ion> The Look Around You episode about Lens was great.
06:24:41 <Bike> was that a star trek joke fiora
06:24:50 <Bike> if not: i'm sorry that i'm apparently a trekkie
06:25:04 <fizzie> Ohhh, I also know the Star Trek joke.
06:25:09 <fizzie> For some reason, I just didn't connect.
06:25:21 <shachaf> Fiora: you're not allowed to tell people to not be sorry
06:25:25 <fizzie> It sounded so plausible as a real rule.
06:25:27 <shachaf> Fiora: you apologisze too much for that
06:25:29 <Fiora> but people tell me not to be sorry
06:25:38 <shachaf> Fiora: yes but you apologisze too much
06:25:59 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
06:26:46 <elliott> i would like to go on the record as not caring whether people are sorry
06:27:16 <shachaf> `run echo '<elliott> i would like to go on the record as not caring whether people are sorry' >> record
06:27:34 <elliott> like the kind you put music on
06:27:44 <Fiora> I guess you could say it's now a broken record
06:28:14 <elliott> that was so bad I think it broke my kidneys.
06:28:17 <elliott> who knew they were so sensitive to jokes
06:29:04 <Bike> my kidneys for one are all about jokes.
06:30:16 <Bike> fiora just apologized for something someone else did, elsewhere
06:30:21 <Bike> you're dropping the ball here fiora
06:30:33 <shachaf> Fiora.................................................
06:30:45 <shachaf> also didn't you read the no compete when you joined this channel
06:30:48 <shachaf> you can't be in any other channel
06:30:57 <Bike> dropping the very apologetic ball
06:31:06 <Fiora> I guess I can leave if it bothers you...
06:31:20 <Bike> no, you have to stay.
06:31:35 <shachaf> this channel is now about you
06:31:38 <Bike> it's the rules.
06:31:45 <shachaf> without you it would collapse around itself
06:31:50 <Fiora> I don't understand...
06:31:56 <kmc> in which #esoteric becomes a bad trip
06:32:03 <kmc> don't scare off Fiora.............
06:32:08 <Bike> Fiora: basically it's cool
06:32:13 <Bike> you're cool. it's all good.
06:32:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v kmc.
06:32:40 <kmc> why am i voiced
06:32:48 <shachaf> kmc: see window 1 for explanation
06:33:00 <elliott> it just happens without explanation.
06:33:14 <Bike> elliott's gone made with power
06:33:16 <elliott> next thing you know clog will be voiced.
06:33:21 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v glogbot.
06:33:55 <kmc> Bike: would you say he's a made man
06:34:06 <Bike> i uh, i don't get it.
06:34:11 <Bike> so i probably would not say that.
06:34:16 <Jafet> Does clog log clog
06:34:26 <shachaf> Bike: the joke is that you said made
06:34:35 <coppro> Jafet: I believe it clogs the clog log
06:34:38 <Bike> wow i'm good at typing
06:35:14 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/5d10cd5263f612c74b6a3d974f031091/tumblr_ml98evQd7s1r4kgqlo2_1280.png
06:35:41 <fizzie> Soon, everyone is voiced, after which being unvoiced will probably start being the cool thing.
06:36:03 <elliott> fizzie: no. being opped will be the cool thing
06:36:05 <shachaf> fizzie: hey i read a book about that
06:36:13 <ion> Being unvoiced was always cooler than being voiced.
06:36:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v ion.
06:36:26 <ion> A number of channels use +v as the idiot flag.
06:36:37 <Bike> anyway one of the authors of this paper is named "Rafal Czajkowski" holy shit
06:36:44 <Bike> czajkowski people
06:36:46 <shachaf> elliott: hey got any "wisecracks" for us
06:36:52 <Bike> i don't know how poland ever had problems with names like that
06:37:00 <Bike> is that a polish name i don't even know
06:37:20 <shachaf> Wait, elliott has chanserv mode +v now?
06:37:23 <Bike> wow it really is polish
06:37:24 <fizzie> elliott: Sorry, that's more of an oerjan thing. :/
06:37:41 <elliott> fizzie: no no. oerjan just ops me *temporarily*. I didn't mean anything like that.
06:37:51 <Bike> shachaf: it means he's gone made with voice-/devoice- related power.
06:37:53 <fizzie> shachaf: It means one can /chanserv voice/devoice #esoteric dude, I think.
06:38:03 <Bike> wow that wasn't even intentional that time
06:38:17 <Bike> it wasn't the first time either, but i mean, still
06:38:27 <Bike> " Zbigniew Czajkowski, Polish fencing master; known as "father of the Polish School of Fencing" and coach of champions"
06:39:59 <fizzie> Any relation with Rafal?
06:40:00 <mnoqy> coach of champions, what a title
06:40:26 <shachaf> coach of coaches of champions
06:40:32 <Bike> is copolishness a relation
06:40:39 <fizzie> The Couch of Champions.
06:40:42 <shachaf> what about reverse polishness
06:41:09 <Bike> 'inverse polish' is probably illegal
06:42:26 <elliott> fizzie: consider this: when lament comes a-knocking and the kids are asleep, who will re-ban dbelange...??????
06:42:33 <elliott> who will make sure Gregor stays voiced
06:42:44 <elliott> imagine the national catastrophe (natastrophe) that could occur
06:42:47 <Bike> who the hell is lament and: why
06:43:34 <elliott> Bike: well do you remember lmt
06:43:37 <elliott> from a few weeks ago or whatever
06:43:38 <ion> ENOTSUP 95 Operation not supported
06:44:33 <HackEgo> 66) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED. \ 276) <lament> elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity
06:44:52 <elliott> Bike: he unbanned dbelange and then invited him. and also was generally lament
06:44:59 <Bike> oh! i talked with that person about salvia
06:45:01 <zzo38> This is the message of 'pataprogramming (linked from Wikipedia): http://www.illposed.com/philosophy/pataprogramming.html
06:45:06 <mnoqy> mmmm lots of new user accounts on thew iki today(its still the 14th....:])
06:45:08 <elliott> he is an old channel op who has spent the past years hating #esoteric and only coming back to kick a lot of people and stuff
06:45:37 <fizzie> ion: EL2HLT 51 Learn to halt, man
06:45:38 <mnoqy> plenty of accounts yesterday too
06:45:39 <Bike> i love history..
06:46:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
06:46:05 <mnoqy> whoa, someone made a brainfuck derivative derivative
06:46:18 <shachaf> mnoqy: is "derivative" contravariant........................
06:46:22 <Bike> is it a good one?
06:46:28 <Bike> haha j/k but seriously i wanna see it.
06:46:36 <shachaf> mnoqy: arguably almost every bf derivative is a derivative of the original bf derivative . . . . . . . .
06:46:44 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Noodle_Soup
06:46:59 -!- carado has joined.
06:47:02 <Bike> good old transitive property.
06:47:14 <shachaf> transitive property of derivatives
06:47:16 <elliott> jesus fucking christ it's almost 8 am
06:47:30 <Bike> that's... not what multiprogramming means, is it
06:47:41 <Jafet> That Jesus F. Christ
06:47:44 <shachaf> hey someone should make a "bf derivative" as in bf options or something
06:48:04 <Bike> i guess multiple interpretations of the same code could be kind of interesting if it wasn't dum
06:48:07 * Fiora buys bf call options
06:48:13 <shachaf> or as in differentiation but i don't know how to differentiate a language
06:48:19 <Bike> ok the wiki says that is what multiprogramming means.
06:48:22 <Bike> shachaf: parser combinators
06:48:25 <ion> EDOTDOT 73 http://youtu.be/4Z2Z23SAFVA
06:48:31 <shachaf> Fiora: why are they called call option instead of buying-options
06:48:44 <Fiora> ummmm maybe ask wikipedia
06:49:15 <pikhq_> shachaf: Tricky. Main problem is, derivatives are continuous while languages are discrete.
06:49:21 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9 why does this exist
06:49:29 <shachaf> pikhq_: um, derivatives don't have to be continuous.........
06:49:36 <Jafet> Noodle Soup looks like a derivative of ROP
06:49:37 <shachaf> pikhq_: like derivatives of types!!
06:49:48 <shachaf> pikhq_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivation_(abstract_algebra)
06:49:51 <Jafet> Languages don't have to be discrete
06:50:17 <pikhq_> shachaf: I wasassuming you meant "as per the calculus of derivatives and integrals"; excuse me.
06:50:21 <shachaf> Fiora: okay from now on i'm calling them buying-options and selling-options
06:50:34 <mnoqy> elliott: you're a wiki admin right. -> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9 <- check it
06:50:41 <Bike> pikhq_: as usual in math it's pretty common to make shit up notice it's pretty similar and call it the same thing
06:50:47 <Bike> the same fucking thing
06:50:59 <Bike> turn me on, dead man
06:51:20 <shachaf> elliott elliott "ur being overly british" "its written check even in britainland.."
06:51:38 <Bike> office of the exchecker
06:51:39 <shachaf> you gotta watch those biritihisihims
06:52:11 <mnoqy> who remembers http://esolangs.org/wiki/FiM%2B%2B from october
06:52:15 <mnoqy> apparently it has its own wiki now
06:53:02 <Bike> wh- oh, tv show
06:53:15 <mnoqy> i hear people like it?
06:53:16 <Bike> after being unable to find pre-existing programming language based on My Little Pony.
06:53:22 <mnoqy> never seen it, myself
06:54:05 <shachaf> mnoqy can i have your autograph
06:54:30 <mnoqy> how--oh i guess i have a tablet i can just plug it in -untangle-
06:54:50 <shachaf> if you're plugging in your tablet i want a self portrait of something
06:55:22 <mnoqy> how about one for bike
06:55:33 <shachaf> draw a self portrait of Bike
06:55:42 <elliott> draw me an op campaign poster please
06:55:45 <shachaf> Bike: You're in for a treat.
06:55:52 <shachaf> elliott: no be quiet it's self self portrait time
06:55:59 <mnoqy> bike's never seen a self-portrait has he
06:56:10 <mnoqy> i can draw a self-portrait of elliott's op campaign
06:56:33 <shachaf> mnoqy: elliott must never become op
06:57:03 <Bike> yeah me too, he's cooler than I.
06:57:23 <shachaf> mnoqy is the terminal object in the poset category of coolness
06:57:25 <elliott> mnoqy: i want that self portrait
06:57:30 <elliott> i don't care what shachaf says
07:00:47 <shachaf> monqy ARE WE GETTING THAT SELF PORTRAIT OR NOT
07:01:01 <shachaf> sorry for shouting and/or yelling
07:01:10 <mnoqy> sorry sorry gimp's just being awful
07:01:15 <mnoqy> it used to be so much less bad!
07:01:29 <Bike> gimp was always gimp was always bad
07:01:53 <ion> mnoqy: Your nick reminds me of the scroll labeled MNOSOI SHIT i got in crawl once.
07:01:53 <mnoqy> well have you seen it's new pen and pencil tools it's impossible to get them working right all the options are funky
07:02:47 <elliott> that one is in ``fuk da sac'' right
07:02:52 <ion> elliott: yeah
07:03:09 <shachaf> mnoqy: you can do anything if you put your mind to it!!
07:04:16 <ion> elliott: I disapprove of your choice of quotation characters.
07:04:25 <elliott> it encodes a specific meaning
07:04:43 <mnoqy> ion: you‘re the “stupid quotes„ guy right
07:06:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Bike.
07:06:37 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey do you still have that self portrait of me
07:06:52 <mnoqy> yeah i have all of them i'll rev the links up
07:07:04 <elliott> no stop i'm trying to sleep
07:07:04 <shachaf> http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png
07:07:34 <mnoqy> oh nuts i dont have them all in a directory i have to fix that
07:07:40 <shachaf> http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/monqy.png
07:07:58 <mnoqy> dont forget http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/eliot.png
07:08:23 <elliott> need to revise monqy.png to be misspelled now
07:08:55 <Bike> these are good.
07:09:19 <shachaf> elliott: um shachaf.png isn't misspelled
07:09:23 <mnoqy> ive moved all of them into the portraits directory
07:09:24 <shachaf> so why should monqy.png be
07:09:43 <mnoqy> e.g. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/monqy.png
07:09:53 <shachaf> e.g. http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/shachaf.png
07:10:06 <mnoqy> and i got a good "dynamics" set up in gimp
07:10:14 <mnoqy> now i just have to remember how to draw
07:12:08 <fizzie> Do you have a “workflow”?
07:12:19 <fizzie> (Those are some amazing portraits.)
07:14:05 <elliott> fizzie: doesn't eliot.png look like the face of someone you can trust
07:14:24 <shachaf> someone i can trust to ruin the channel hth
07:14:40 <fizzie> elliott: Well, yes, but I don't trust myself to make sensible decisions.
07:14:58 <fizzie> (What sort of email reply subject line prefix is "AW:" supposed to be?)
07:15:02 <elliott> fizzie: I do! I believe in you.
07:15:08 <elliott> fizzie: believe that you can believe in me.
07:16:16 <fizzie> Well, it was from Switzerland, but they do a kind of German there.
07:17:19 <impomatic> The big three are called DACH or something for Germany, Austria and Switzerland
07:18:09 <fizzie> I am under the impression that "Swiss German" is somewhat dialecty.
07:18:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v glogbot.
07:18:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v ion.
07:18:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v kmc.
07:18:57 <Bike> the swiss are all about the dialectic
07:19:43 <fizzie> The Swiss are very dielectric. (It's all that mountain air.)
07:19:44 * impomatic has a website in German. Unfortunately I only speak a bit of German. Fine for email, not so good when people phone :-(
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07:27:52 <mnoqy> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/bike.png
07:28:27 <Bike> i shall treasure it
07:28:30 <Bike> thank you very much
07:28:40 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
07:33:46 <mnoqy> isn;t that what Bike is
07:33:48 <Bike> (1) no (2) don't ruin the moment
07:34:22 <impomatic> Sorry, my mistake. Definitely a Bike :-)
07:34:23 <Bike> that circle on the left isn't even connected how could it be a wheel
07:43:24 <mnoqy> elliott: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/el-op.png
07:45:03 <Bike> elliott's op campaign is a talented artist
07:45:14 <shachaf> elliott for nethack player
07:48:47 <HackEgo> FireFly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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07:49:23 <shachaf> Well, this is the channel with the `welcome bot.
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08:57:41 <ion> shachaf: hachaf
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09:10:28 <ion> (unwords . replicate 4) "shachaf"
09:10:55 <lambdabot> ["iiii","iiio","iiin","iioi","iioo","iion","iini","iino","iinn","ioii","ioi...
09:22:48 <shachaf> fizzie: how about you op me for a little bit
09:24:22 <fizzie> You'd just kickban everyone, make the topic a link of your for-profit porn site, set up a ritual sacrifice altar in the middle of the channel, I know that.
09:24:26 <fizzie> (As opposed to your non-profit porn site.)
09:34:20 <shachaf> No, I already said what I'd do.
09:35:12 <fizzie> I did not read that, I'm on a laggy mobile internet.
09:38:06 <fizzie> Still, opping all kinds of random "plebs" is more of an oerjan thing, isn't it?
09:38:09 <fizzie> I get a bad rash if I touch the privilege controls.
09:38:43 <shachaf> Don't worry, I'd deop myself within a minute.
09:40:42 <fizzie> Could you recap (in ten words or so) what you were going to do, first? I forgot what it was, if ever I knew.
09:40:56 <shachaf> I was going to: deop myself (but first deop elliott)
09:41:55 <fizzie> Well, I guess that's safe enough, and pointless enough to be accepted by the Spirit of #esoteric.
09:41:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o shachaf.
09:42:05 -!- shachaf has set channel mode: -o elliott.
09:42:07 -!- shachaf has set channel mode: -o shachaf.
09:44:45 <shachaf> Hmm,I should've done it in one go.
09:55:32 <shachaf> fizzie: Did you hear the new name of this channel?
09:55:43 <shachaf> Because it's esoteric, but it's irc.
09:56:27 <shachaf> fizzie: How should I learn Finnish?
09:57:13 <fizzie> I've heard there's a tutorial-kind of book called "Learn You a Finnish for Great Good!", it's got an elephant on the cover. (I may be mixing things up.)
09:57:57 <shachaf> But have no fears. We may still be able to get something useful out of this.
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09:58:01 <shachaf> fizzie: How should I learn Haskell?
09:59:36 <zzo38> Learn Haskell by practice; that is best way.
09:59:45 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, I've heard one way is to go live among native Haskell speakers for a while, but that's of course kind of boring. My (Finnish) friend's Chinese wife goes to some sort of daily Haskell course. But I don't really know these things.
09:59:48 <shachaf> zzo38: (Shh. I actually want to learn Finnish.)
10:00:14 <zzo38> Maybe you should also learn Finnish by practice too, then.
10:01:19 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
10:01:32 <shachaf> `run /bin/ls wisdom | grep oe
10:01:57 <shachaf> `run echo yes > wisdom/døsthiswork
10:02:19 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
10:02:22 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
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10:10:03 <fizzie> `run echo 'oerjan øerjan œrjan' | iconv -t ascii//translit
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10:25:09 <ais523> checking for messages helps keep them away
10:29:04 <ais523> does it have to be recent news?
10:29:17 <ais523> I'm sure things have happened, and some people consider them exciting
10:29:37 <ais523> the further back you go, the more likely you are to find things that are very exciting, to a lot of people
10:29:41 <shachaf> I will allow you to use your good judgment.
10:30:04 <ais523> I've been having quite a good night/day so far, but the details are reasonably mundane from most people's point of view
10:30:06 <zzo38> It is possible to treat the standard genetic code as a programming language; the following translates to the peptide HELLQWQRLD. TACGTACTTAATAATGTTACCGTTGCAAATCTAATC Can this be modified to code pyrrolysine somehow?
10:30:09 <ais523> I got a lot of writing done
10:30:27 <ais523> and I made some changes to my Pokémon team that have been performing better than expected
10:30:32 <ais523> (although now I have to learn how to play it again)
10:32:32 <zzo38> (This was found on Wikipedia, except for my question)
10:34:36 <zzo38> It says pyrrolysine is usually interpreted as stop codons. Do you know how to fix it so that it does not do so, and can therefore make "HELLOWORLD" instead of "HELLQWQRLD", or are there other problems with that too?
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10:48:05 <fizzie> A @message a day keeps the doctor away.
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10:51:02 <zzo38> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DanielCristofani/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages2
10:55:45 <fizzie> Sometimes I wonder why none of the Befunge Hello Worlds one sees ever use the canonical printing idiom >:#,_ but instead a loop that "looks like" a loop. (I guess it's to illustrate that part of the language.)
10:56:45 <Koen_> what's the point of a befunge Hello World! program if the loop doesn't look like a loop
10:56:51 <Koen_> IT'S BEFUNGE, MATE
10:57:13 <Deewiant> If it works in Unefunge it's not a good illustration of Befunge
10:58:09 <fizzie> But it's the IDIOT. I mean, idiom.
11:00:44 <ais523> fizzie: http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/ uses a oneliner
11:00:58 <ais523> possibly because it'd be hard to parse if it had to use -newline- too
11:24:28 <Zerker> ais523: You're the guy that thought up Checkout right? Are there any available graphics cards for which it can be assembled, or would there need to be a compiler to GLSL/CUDA or similar convolution?
11:25:02 <ais523> Zerker: GPU asm tends to be proprietary, although I think Intel would be happy to give you a reference manual for theirs
11:25:08 <ais523> I'm surprised Checkout gets so much attention, really
11:25:27 <ais523> compiling to CUDA or OpenCL or something would probably make the most sense, though
11:26:00 <ais523> back when I was working on GPU computation a few years ago, the tools weren't very mature
11:26:06 <Zerker> cool, and checkout promises efficiency ^-^
11:26:32 <ais523> OpenCL was pretty rudimentary; CUDA's proprietary tools were good but going backwards
11:26:54 <ais523> they used to include a simulator to emulate the GPU on the CPU so you could debug it
11:27:00 <ais523> but they removed it when they added on-GPU debugging
11:27:39 <ais523> the problem is, turns out you can't put a debugger on the GPU when it's trying to handle rendering the desktop at the same time
11:28:07 <Zerker> haha, I see why that may be problematic
11:28:24 <Zerker> Run all dev tools on a remote X server?
11:28:55 <ais523> we did the reverse, in the end
11:29:02 <ais523> put the graphics card in the server and ssh'd in
11:30:15 <Zerker> Ah, so the debugger was sane enough not to attempt to draw itself
11:30:43 <ais523> that possibility hadn't even occured to me
11:30:57 <ais523> and even now you've mentioned it, I'm having problems visualising it
11:31:21 <Zerker> (as a window in aforementioned "desktop" environment)
11:32:05 <ais523> well what would be saner would be to just have the debugger take over the entire screen
11:32:06 <Zerker> Though directly could be fun too
11:32:09 <ais523> like full-screen games do
11:32:19 <ais523> that way the GPU isn't trying to handle two things at once while stuck at a breakpoint
11:33:22 <Zerker> Except it would still have to draw the debugger. While freezing all the registers etc. you're looking at…parallelism is neat :P
11:33:51 <ais523> now, GPUs can run multiple completely unrelated tasks in parallel
11:33:58 <ais523> that's how the GPGPU stuff works in the first place
11:34:10 <ais523> just when we were working on it, they couldn't do that in debug mode, for whatever reason
11:34:50 <ais523> presumably because breakpointing the GPU can't stop just one equivalent-of-process (I've forgotten the word for it), it has to stop the whole GPU
11:35:58 <Zerker> So the Checkout "in parallel, do the same exact thing except with one varying integer" is no longer an accurate representation?
11:36:11 <ais523> Zerker: that is accurate, at the lowest levels
11:36:16 <ais523> GPUs are parallel on multiple levels
11:36:23 <ais523> thus the multiple tiers of Checkout
11:36:58 <Zerker> So how hard is it to get to these lower levels on e.g. an RPi? >:D
11:37:12 <ais523> kernels are like level 5 units; the one varying integer thing is a warp, at level 1
11:37:28 <Fiora> I thought only some times could you actually run multiple kernels?
11:37:29 <ais523> err, level 2 is a warp
11:37:31 <Fiora> I think it was CUDA 2.0 or something
11:37:38 <ais523> Fiora: that's computational kernels
11:37:49 <ais523> the ones doing rendering have always been able to run in parallel with that
11:38:05 <ais523> because NVidia's customers would complain if they had to use a serial console to run their CUDA programs
11:40:42 <Zerker> And if you can, why would you instead compile to a higher-level language that would just get expanded back out?
11:42:16 <ais523> well compiling to subsets of a higher-level language can be one way to get portability without sacrificing speed
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11:49:06 <Zerker> Reminds me of a lisp VM implemented for PIC controllers, how aggressively can it be optimized though?
11:49:26 <ais523> well the idea of asm.js is a bit of an abstraction inversion
11:49:38 <ais523> it's basically asm compiled to JavaScript in a particularly mechanical way
11:49:48 <ais523> the idea being that JavaScript interpreters can recognise it and compile it back to asm
11:50:00 <ais523> and even the ones that don't recognise it are likely to do a good job of optimising it
11:50:15 <ais523> you could potentially use a similar technique for Checkout, compiling it to OpenCL
11:50:26 <ais523> and then having the OpenCL compiled to platform-specific GPU asm that's similar to the original
11:52:28 <Zerker> How good are the platform-specific GPUs at optimizing OpenCL?
11:53:16 <ais523> in general, GPU optimization seems very random sometimes
11:53:27 <ais523> one of my favourite GPU stories is a scheduler bug
11:53:43 <ais523> basically, if you asked for 256 threads to run, it ran them in 8 warps of 32
11:53:52 <ais523> if you asked for 257 threads to run, it ran them in 257 warps of 1
11:54:11 <ais523> because it couldn't make the number of threads in a warp differ from warp to warp
11:54:21 <ais523> also it had to be a power of 2
11:55:01 * Zerker stops checking for primeness
11:55:40 <Snowyowl> I don't understand enough about GPUs to know why this is a bug.
11:56:05 <ais523> Snowyowl: imagine you have a dualcore processor, and if you have an even number of processes, it uses both cores
11:56:08 <Zerker> I'm guessing 8x32, and then 1, would have worked better?
11:56:11 <ais523> but if you have an odd number, it only uses one
11:57:24 <Zerker> Is there even any situation where it shouldn't basically step through the binary representation of <number of threads>?
11:57:26 <ais523> Zerker: anyway that bug is fixed on more recent GPUs, it was fixed on the newer ones we tested, just not the older ones
11:57:49 <ais523> so different computers in the lab gave completely different results when drawing a block size vs. performance graph
12:00:54 <Jafet> `factor 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
12:00:55 <HackEgo> factor: `11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111' is too large
12:01:21 <Snowyowl> nonsense, that's the prime factorisation of 1
12:02:45 * Zerker is amused by 0: emoticon
12:05:23 <Zerker> Certainly, but unfortunately isn't recognized as such by my IRC client; however, https://www.dropbox.com/s/nj2nhkln011suny/2013-04-15%2005.02.46.png
12:15:18 <HackEgo> 753) <elliott> gah <elliott> this language is of the devil <elliott> oklopol: you're meant to use your powers for _good_
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12:33:22 <HackEgo> 998) <zzo38> In this timezone is Good Friday today. <zzo38> (It is good because you don't have to go to work)
12:34:06 <HackEgo> 455) <ais523> it's probably the same people who were trying to organise gangs of shoplifters as some sort of complex protest against the government's economic policy
12:34:17 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:34:18 <HackEgo> 973) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, are you just trying to post kmcbait... * Fiora imagines a cardboard box propped up by a stick with a pile of monads inside. <elliott> Fiora: that is actually what Haskell is.
12:34:40 <HackEgo> 55) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
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12:35:03 <HackEgo> 361) <coppro> elliott: actually, it's worse right now, I'm in the USA <coppro> where the solution to counterfeiting problems is "add more ink" <coppro> eventually all US bills will just be solid green
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12:41:04 <HackEgo> 574) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
12:42:30 <Jafet> fungot, acknowledge your master markov
12:42:30 <fungot> Jafet: no problem. i have started to agree with bradd, here. might be dangerous :) ashinn really believe him or her. what kind of crap is what drives me mad :) which helps in this community
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12:49:05 <boily> good morning all! bixi 2013 season is open! WOOHOO!
12:49:42 <Snowyowl> does that mean we get to shoot you? I'm OK with that.
12:50:05 <boily> only if you can catch me, cause I'm on a BICYCLE!
12:58:50 <HackEgo> 951) <fungot> Áis523ÎkËÇÏ52Í¿ÉnÐffjliated/ais523: ever tried reading while confused?
12:59:06 <HackEgo> 155) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python
12:59:11 <HackEgo> 248) <zzo38> However is probably better to have both queen/king and government in case one does bad thing, the other side can argue to them
12:59:17 <HackEgo> 36) <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
12:59:18 <HackEgo> 861) <elliott> Deewiant: um???? You've forgotten axiom 1 of everything: everything sucks
13:01:03 <HackEgo> 692) <fungot> elliott: but, there are imps around, the pad. it's hard to remember though your cross-hairs would never settle on an innocent little girl. chokes up now imagine she's white.
13:01:10 <HackEgo> 634) <Sgeo> I guess only gay people fuck?
13:01:17 <HackEgo> 43) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer?
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13:36:56 <fizzie> That's a lot of quoting.
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14:09:08 <HackEgo> 256) <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME. \ 799) * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds
14:15:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
14:15:19 <boily> `pastquote zucchini
14:15:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastquote: not found
14:16:03 <HackEgo> 2006-08-04.txt:22:02:12: <GregorR-W> These are the voyages ... of the starship zucchini.
14:16:17 <boily> not quite what I had in mind, but it'll do.
14:27:06 <HackEgo> 1022) <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
14:27:50 <boily> ah, I recall that. lucky fungot.
14:27:51 <fungot> boily: and -o1 fnord calls turns it on :) 19:10 tagy se on ihan tossa vieressä! fnord.!. see srfi 1's take
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15:02:50 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE ON TWITTER: https://twitter.com/CharlieShrem/status/323792771745984512
15:13:44 <kmc> Boris Johnson wants to build a statue of Thatcher in Trafalgar Square?
15:16:34 <FreeFull> I'd rather have a statue of Gordon Brown than Margaret Thatcher
15:17:09 <Taneb> I wouldn't care for either.
15:17:31 <FreeFull> I mean, if I had to choose between the two
15:17:42 <kmc> i'd rather have a statue of boris johnson
15:17:52 <kmc> because then it would just be a joke and not a slap in the face
15:18:27 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems like his main crime as a leader was not being photogenic enough
15:19:27 <FreeFull> I think people think he slacked off too much
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15:22:44 <Taneb> I think he was more of an unpopular chancellor of the exchequer
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15:34:41 <kmc> gah i thought 8GB of RAM would be enough for this laptop
15:34:46 <kmc> since the previous one only had 3GB
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17:23:00 <ThatOtherPerson> I can't help but notice that people seem to be finding their voices.
17:23:36 <Koen_> do you mean like the little mermaid?
17:24:19 <Bike> pretty sure gregor's a mermaid.
17:24:19 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:25:08 * Gregor searches him/herself for sexual organs.
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17:37:26 <fizzie> Are merpeople werefish?
17:37:47 <fizzie> Or the other way around.
17:40:12 <pikhq_> Hmm. "Were" is Old English for a male human.
17:43:08 * Phantom_Hoover remembers that when he quit last night Sgeo was explaining how to fix racism
17:45:00 <Taneb> I just got 100% on Guitar Hero 3 Medium Difficulty Knights of Cydonia
17:45:25 <boily> quick wiqui question: what the liquid brimstone is that revolution 9 page?
17:46:03 <elliott> fizzie: i would like you to see https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/el-op.png
17:48:18 <elliott> boily: it is what we have to expect more of if Gregor ever gets devoiced inappropriately.
17:51:04 <coppro> why can't I be devoiced inappropriately?
17:53:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v coppro.
17:56:18 <coppro> elliott: that was clearly appropriate
17:57:01 <elliott> it's not appropriate to devoice someone without voice
17:57:33 <kmc> Taneb: congratst
17:57:59 <Taneb> kmc, I've been trying to do that for ages
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18:10:56 <Taneb> I presume "eliot" is my imaginary second middle name
18:12:37 <Bike> i thought it was elliott's op campaign's handwriting
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18:20:51 <shachaf> mnoqy: you should draw a self portrait of Phantom_Hoover
18:21:06 <mnoqy> im eating brunch now though
18:21:25 <boily> shachaf: how can you self-portrait of somebody else?
18:22:24 <shachaf> boily: i didn't say a *self* self-portrait
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18:31:38 <boily> corn I be a cereal too? I ear that it's a-maize-ing.
18:32:41 <Taneb> The good ol' boys were drinking Whisky in mnoqy
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19:40:20 * impomatic pops in quickly to see if anyone's talking about esoteric programming...
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19:42:56 <kmc> hi impomatic
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19:57:01 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, help
19:57:09 <Taneb> People on Facebook are talking about bitcoin
19:57:17 <Taneb> Person on Facebook is talking about bitcoin
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20:07:15 <kmc> my twitter feed is all bitcoin all the time
20:07:27 <kmc> except that today it's all about bombs that went off at the boston marathon :/
20:08:16 <kmc> pretty fucked up
20:08:22 <kmc> i think everyone I know is safe
20:11:04 <kmc> copumpkin: you're in CT these days right?
20:11:11 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
20:11:39 <kmc> sounds like your colleages in back bay might have been evacuated, hope nothing worse than that
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20:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> am i like the designated expert on making fun of bitcoin
20:17:27 <Bike> you're The Bitcoin Person now
20:18:50 <boily> I wonder which is worse: being the canadian person, or the bitcoin person.
20:20:05 <FireFly> Prboably being the Canadian bitcoin person
20:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> also: fuck, watching four lions is going to be even more uncomfortable now
20:23:43 <metasepia> Four Lions (2010) is a British dark comedy film.
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20:25:06 <Bike> apparently "jihad satire" is a genre
20:25:39 <Bike> "According to Psychology Today," blugh
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21:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eminent_Domain_50_States.jpg
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21:34:15 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:SIR_448_at_Great_Kills_Station.jpg&oldid=61691747
21:34:22 <Bike> would it being taken down for copyright be ironic
21:35:04 <Bike> kmc: holy shit
21:36:26 <kmc> it's not false, it's just not an accurate description of the picture
21:37:34 <kmc> also yes there's a stop on the line named Great Kills
21:37:39 <kmc> blame the dutch
21:38:08 <kmc> low countries more like blow countries
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21:49:23 <boily> you were a function, therefore you had a type. ischiomorphism seems to have destroyed it, sadly.
21:50:43 <kmc> i want a haskell library for ichthyomorphisms
21:51:26 <Bike> Control.Monad.Blowfish
21:51:57 <metasepia> Ichthyology is the branch of zoology devoted to the study of fish.
21:52:13 <kmc> cryptoichthyology
21:52:53 <Bike> i guess nessie isn't technically a fish
21:52:57 <boily> with a fish operator: >~)))°>
21:53:54 <kmc> what is it then
21:54:01 <kmc> amphibian?
21:54:46 <kmc> monster is not a kingdom
21:55:18 <Bike> huh, i didn't know dinosauria was actually a clade
21:56:10 <Bike> it's not like a billion different genera names don't mean "monster" or "monstrous" anyway
21:56:32 <Bike> genus that's the singular get it together bike
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22:32:52 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v fizzie.
22:33:17 <fizzie> It hasn't been fizzie day here for a while, I think I can get rid of the "idiot flag".
22:37:12 <olsner> is that another name for the bozo bit?
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22:43:56 <elliott> linode credit card numbers have leaked
22:44:02 <elliott> maybe i should find another vps provider
22:44:33 <fizzie> I'm at tilaa.com now, because they had such a nonsense explanation for the name.
22:44:49 <fizzie> And esp. for the logo.
22:46:34 <fizzie> Because it's the Finnish word (more or less) for "space". (Like, empty space; not space space.)
22:46:52 <fizzie> And their logo is a wolf, because the wolf is the king of wide open spaces.
22:46:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well it might be a debit card thing
22:46:58 <fizzie> Or something like that.
22:47:07 <elliott> all i know is it's a piece of plastic and used as a credit card for linode
22:47:10 <fizzie> (They're not a Finnish company or anything.)
22:47:27 <elliott> fizzie: you used prgmr previously right?
22:48:21 <fizzie> https://support.tilaa.com/entries/22447921-What-does-Tilaa-mean- https://support.tilaa.com/entries/22467097-What-does-the-wolf-in-your-logo-have-to-do-with-Tilaa-
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22:48:36 <fizzie> "In Finland, the wolf is the ruler of the open space."
22:49:24 <fizzie> I don't even know if they have any Finnish employees.
22:49:42 <fizzie> Maybe they just randomly picked Finland to mock.
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23:35:10 <Sgeo> Is there any good reason for forms to be able to POST to other domains?
23:47:57 <kmc> Sgeo: have you read The Tangled Web?
23:48:00 <kmc> really good book on websec
23:48:07 <kmc> i don't know if it has the answer to that question
23:48:12 <kmc> but it's informative and quite entertaining
23:48:45 <Sgeo> Remind me to buy that next week when I have money
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23:50:43 <Sgeo> But it doesn't obey same origin policy the way XMLHttpRequest does
23:50:49 <Lumpio-> Same origin policy is so inconsistent .-.
23:50:55 <Lumpio-> Forms existed befor same origin policy did.
23:51:05 <Lumpio-> And they can't possibly remove stuff because then things would break.
23:53:33 <kmc> also cookies don't follow SOP, they have their own slightly different policy
23:54:25 <kmc> just don't get pickles in your cookies
23:54:36 <kmc> websec slash cooking advice
23:54:41 <kmc> don't put pickles in your cookies
23:54:44 <kmc> always salt your hash
23:55:09 <kmc> Sgeo: do you know about CSRF and how to prevent it?
23:55:56 <Sgeo> I know of one way that's supposed to prevent it... a token given to any page that needs to POST stuff, and the token needs to be given back
23:56:21 <kmc> but typically, the server doesn't know or care what the 'right' token is
23:56:23 <Sgeo> But wouldn't requiring something like X-Requested-With: blah or requiring Content-Type to be application/json work?
23:56:38 <kmc> it just verifies that the token submitted as part of the form matches the token in a cookie
23:56:58 <kmc> a CSRF attacker controls the former, and the latter is part of the ambient authority that they're trying to exploit but can't use directly
23:57:04 <kmc> can't see directly, anyway
23:58:08 <kmc> yeah, sometimes you put the token in a custom header instead of a field element
23:58:19 <kmc> but either way it has to match that cookie
23:58:37 <kmc> this gives rise to a sort of variation on a session fixation attack, call it a csrf token fixation attack
23:59:02 <kmc> say that lolbutts.github.com is controlled by an attacker
23:59:15 <kmc> they can set a cookie for *.github.com that contains a csrf token of their choice
23:59:34 <kmc> then use it to CSR-forge requests to the main github app
23:59:45 <Sgeo> How do you CSR-forge a custom header anyway?
00:00:00 <Sgeo> I was hoping that just requiring X-Requested-With: XMLHttpRequest would be enough
00:00:01 <kmc> this kind of thing is why GitHub moved the user generated pages to github.io like last week
00:00:07 <kmc> maybe it is
00:00:25 <kmc> people also mitigate CSRF by checking the Referer header
00:01:14 <kmc> Django's CSRF middleware does that automatically if the request was sent by HTTPS
00:01:39 <kmc> (because in that case you have no excuse for blocking the Referer header as a legitimate user)
00:02:21 <elliott> my excuse is that it's awful
00:02:22 <kmc> "Verifying that the request's header contains a X-Requested-With (used by Ruby on Rails before v2.0 and Django before v1.2.5), or checking the HTTP Referer header and/or HTTP Origin header... These protections have been proven insecure under a combination of browser plugins and redirects which can allow an attacker to provide custom HTTP headers on a request to any website, hence allowing a forged request"
00:02:28 <kmc> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-site_request_forgery with links
00:02:35 <kmc> the ambient authority of cookies is awful
00:03:42 <Sgeo> Is there a chance that the plugins could be patched to not allow that?
00:03:57 <Sgeo> Considered a security vuln. of the plugins, not the sites?
00:03:59 <kmc> i do'nt know which plugins
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00:17:43 <kmc> daily mail: "worst U.S. terror strike since 9/11"
00:17:49 <kmc> leave it to the daily mail to keep some levelheaded perspective
00:18:08 <kmc> about an event which has killed 0.1% as many people as 9/11
00:18:19 <Bike> are there any confirmed deaths yet?
00:18:22 <Bike> or confirmed anything, really
00:19:06 <kmc> 2 dead, 130 or so injured, some seriously, some not
00:19:35 <kmc> doesthiswork: yeah
00:19:50 <kmc> they're the british right wing anti immigrant propaganda tabloid
00:20:37 <elliott> i mean i know what is going on
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00:22:07 <kmc> also i guess shooting up a theater or an elementary school is not a 'terror strike' if it's done by white people
00:22:30 <Bike> do we even know if it's by white people
00:22:34 <Bike> like do we even know if it's by people
00:22:38 <kmc> robots O_O
00:22:43 <kmc> no i don't think anyone knows
00:24:35 <Sgeo> NY Post put out some BS information, didn't they?
00:24:45 <kmc> they are shit too
00:24:48 <lambdabot> fizzie said 18h 10m 13s ago: TANK U
00:25:15 <Bike> man this site is enterprise as shit but they made a dragonfly so i really want to read it
00:25:24 <Bike> http://www.festo.com/rep/en_corp/assets/pyramide_layout_und_freisteller_500px.jpg agh
00:25:38 <doesthiswork> so I had an idea, what if functions only took named arguments but when they returned, they created variables to hold their return values. It'd be just like using a package and exporting some things from a package. If any of the variables they tried to create already existed it would be a compile time error.
00:26:26 <Bike> Advanced Technologies
00:27:58 <kmc> doesthiswork: interesting
00:28:04 <kmc> what if you, like, want to call the same function twice
00:28:30 <kmc> seems like the caller should specify the return variable names, and then it's more like pattern matching / destructuring bind
00:29:04 <kmc> also, only taking named arguments doesn't seem relevant, until you do a CPS transform, at which point it's kind of elegantly dual
00:29:12 <doesthiswork> you can also choose to only import certain names, or not to import certain names
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00:30:32 <oerjan> cerebral programming style
00:32:10 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
00:33:09 <Jafet> Cigar passing style
00:34:08 <kmc> cigar puffing style
00:34:52 <kmc> being angry that the Daily Mail sucks is like being angry that piss tastes bad
00:35:40 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a569e1a271d960682bd6bbc784b67680/tumblr_mlbhcoRios1r4o8jvo1_500.jpg seriously fuck
00:35:52 <kmc> it's owned by news corp / murdoch
00:36:02 <kmc> Bike: yeah...
00:37:01 <kmc> his excuse was "Sarcasm, idiot."
00:37:10 <kmc> "Rush proceeded to address his critics on Twitter with a series of profane responses"
00:37:13 <kmc> really doubling down
00:37:28 <Bike> i was actually saying we should /create/ all muslims
00:37:31 <Bike> keep up stupid
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00:43:23 <Bike> yeah ok this guy is seriously angering me. someone tell me a thing that isn't terrible
00:44:08 <kmc> http://marginalrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Violence-Stylized-2.png
00:44:21 <Bike> "with the aim of improving the functionality of technical systems" because this isn't doing it
00:44:24 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
00:44:29 <Bike> oh that's pretty good
00:44:40 <kmc> http://marginalrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Homicide-Table.png
00:44:44 <Bike> that's like, per thousand?
00:44:57 <kmc> that's per 100,000
00:45:06 <kmc> i don't know how this factors in war
00:45:12 <quintopia> espresso brownie sundae with bacon on top
00:45:14 <kmc> and genocide
00:45:14 <shachaf> can we have a second graph for epa
00:45:18 <Bike> I don't think war is usually counted as homicide
00:45:22 <kmc> the intentional death rate in europe 1936-1945 was very high
00:45:40 <Bike> shachaf: environmental protection agency?
00:45:54 <kmc> shachaf: don't get got
00:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, why are there so many estimates for the 17th century??
00:46:31 <Bike> do they often kill people
00:46:57 <kmc> killing the american small business</fox_news>
00:49:28 <Sgeo> I... at first I thought the large text was sarcasm
00:49:36 <Sgeo> I didn't read the tweet at the top of the image
00:49:53 <Bike> welcome to twitter, i guess
00:50:14 <shachaf> welcome to the internet and/or world and/or people
00:50:35 <kmc> welcome to languages which are read from top to bottom
00:50:49 <Bike> welcome to boustrephedons
00:50:59 <kmc> and he claims it was sarcasm
00:51:13 <Bike> apparently he "recently predicted Obama will have Christians declared mentally ill and ship them off to asylums" which would make him about as cogent as jack chick
00:51:53 <Sgeo> Oh, apparently it ...was sarcasm?
00:51:54 <Sgeo> "Hypothesis proven: Libs responding to "kill them all" sarcasm neglect fact that their precious Islamists say the same about us EVERY DAY."
00:52:04 <oerjan> <elliott> fizzie: doesn't eliot.png look like the face of someone you can trust <-- excuse me but that person clearly has a goatee.
00:52:08 <elliott> the kind of sarcasm where you actually mean it
00:52:27 <elliott> oerjan: observe the beautiful goateeless https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/el-op.png
00:52:45 <Bike> Sgeo: see it's sarcasm because what he actually meant is to go back in time and create all of them.
00:53:10 <shachaf> elliott: um, i see a goatee
00:53:17 <Bike> is it true that elliott is good with kids
00:53:34 <kmc> when will they stop persecuting christians in this country?!?!? christians only make up 87% of congress and every president ever and most heads of big businesses and anyone else with power
00:53:51 <elliott> kmc: those are reptiles. technically reptiles cannot be christian
00:54:13 <kmc> yeah that's leviticus 9:17
00:54:18 <kmc> n.b. have not read leviticus
00:54:38 <Jafet> kmc: you must be christian then
00:54:38 <Bike> i'm pretty sure there's actually a clause to the effect of "snakes? fuck 'em" in there, at least
00:54:42 <Sgeo> It's possible to persecute a majority. But it's pretty blatantly not the case here
00:55:03 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah, it tends not to happen as much in representative democracies though
00:55:16 <oerjan> Bike: pretty close to the beginning, i recall
00:55:40 <kmc> also some of the presidents were secret deists
00:55:48 <Bike> wel that's just that particular serpent
00:55:57 <Bike> kmc: s/secret/wrote and published books about it/fuck grammar
00:56:18 <shachaf> how do they come up with the english names and/or pronunciations of the bible
00:56:20 <Bike> it's pretty nice that that tripoli treaty was specifically like "yeah no moslems are ok"
00:56:34 <Bike> shachaf: thousands of years of illiteracy
00:57:45 <shachaf> Such is an illiterate Earth.
00:57:47 <oerjan> <Sgeo> It's possible to persecute a majority. But it's pretty blatantly not the case here <-- see: Ngo Dinh Diem
00:57:48 <shachaf> illiterra see, illiterra do
00:58:07 <Bike> or rather hear because they can't see language? i guess?
00:58:08 <kmc> it is amusing that meddling in the middle east was literally the first US foreign military action
00:58:14 <kmc> it's a proud tradition of ours
00:58:24 <Bike> hmm, is tunisia the "middle east"
00:58:43 <Bike> i guess they coulda been half-berber
00:58:45 <Bike> islamic, anyway
00:58:52 <Bike> err half-arab*
00:59:23 <kmc> 'Some 98% of modern native Tunisians are from a sociological, historical and genealogical standpoint mainly of Arab and Arab-Berber descent, but the overwhelming majority simply identify themselves today as Arabs'
00:59:29 <kmc> dunno about in the 18th century
00:59:37 <Bike> well yeah, today, i'm kinda curious about back then though.
00:59:49 <Bike> i guess they probably have been arabized for a while now
01:01:04 <kmc> the Umayyad Caliphate conquered most of north africa
01:01:23 <kmc> and some of spain
01:01:32 <elliott> the keys just typed themselves
01:01:36 <Bike> elliott: i laughed. help.
01:01:39 <kmc> the keys are practically next to each other
01:01:42 <Bike> kmc: yeah that's what i was thinking. it's been a while.
01:02:03 <Bike> anyway they were fairly poor and also brown so foreign policy jokes go
01:03:05 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/The_world_in_750_CE.PNG
01:04:03 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember what that one empire that had, like, some crazy fraction of the human population was
01:04:12 <Bike> that'd be a lot of them
01:04:27 <Bike> wikipedia has a list, i think the highest percentagewise was the achaemids (spoiler: i misspelled this)
01:04:43 <Bike> 40.something%, i think
01:05:01 <kmc> was japan actually that unified in 750 ce
01:05:16 <Bike> Yeah, that woulda been before warring states, at least
01:05:23 <Bike> also more bombing news from britain http://i.imgur.com/CBSSGlDh.jpg
01:05:35 <kmc> a classy publication
01:05:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "The Nara period (710–784) of the 8th century marked the emergence of a strong Japanese state, centered on an imperial court in Heijō-kyō (modern Nara). "
01:06:21 <Bike> srivijaya's lookin' pretty sweet too
01:06:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i like how there's a clear progression of actual news, SEX, PAEDOS
01:07:06 <Bike> this reminds me how little we know about the songhay
01:07:23 <Bike> wait i meant ghana. argh
01:07:44 <kmc> these maps often make kinda arbitrary distinctions
01:07:57 <kmc> i don't know how centralized power was in the umayyad caliphate
01:08:15 <Bike> "The Songhai are thought to have settled at Gao as early as 800 CE, but did not establish it as the capital until the 11th century, during the reign of Dia Kossoi. " accurate map
01:08:39 <kmc> also africa on that map...
01:08:43 <kmc> basically 'some africans lived here'
01:08:54 <Bike> well i mean, to be fair
01:09:03 <Bike> look up the ghana empire. we know like, their name. that's about it
01:09:08 <kmc> russia sort of the same
01:09:17 <kmc> i don't know why the finns and the slavs and such don't get colored blobs
01:09:22 <kmc> maybe they didn't have a military or something
01:09:25 <kmc> but the magyars get a blob!
01:09:28 <Bike> fuck the baltics weren't even christianized yet
01:09:36 <kmc> were they all vikings or something
01:09:54 <Bike> oh man "bantus"
01:09:58 <Bike> just kinda there
01:10:09 <Bike> "Turkic Peoples"
01:10:20 <Bike> you don't even get an ethnicity, you get a meta-ethnicity
01:11:06 <Bike> it's pretty hard to make borders though
01:11:16 <Bike> like i know a bit about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala_(Southeast_Asian_political_model), you have to be really gradual
01:11:27 <Bike> you could have a town that is technically in three different "empires"
01:11:42 <oerjan> <+Bike> elliott: i laughed. help. <-- how sad, now you're both going to be killed by terrorists right?
01:12:10 <Bike> wow i... don't actually know how the turks ended up in turkey, now that you mention it.
01:12:29 <mnoqy> shachaf, Fiora: i finished my self-potrait of Fiora
01:12:31 <mnoqy> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/fiora.png
01:12:51 <Bike> mnoqy: nailed it
01:12:52 <kmc> Bike: interesting link
01:13:19 <shachaf> Fiora: look at mnoqy's self portrait of you, it's good
01:13:55 <elliott> i like how all of mnoqy's portraits are a standardised size
01:14:02 <mnoqy> it's the gimp default
01:14:15 <Bike> kmc: i have a book on the history of burma. it's pretty crazy. there are maps that use marching time as their metric because the terrain is so impassable
01:14:17 <shachaf> that size looks more like..........landscape to me
01:14:30 <mnoqy> Phantom_Hoover: next, probably
01:14:35 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: you're not cool enough for a self portrait
01:15:07 <Bike> if you were better than fiora why does she have one more portrait than you?
01:15:14 <Bike> come on, man, we weren't born yesterday.
01:15:48 <shachaf> when you earn five stars you can trade them in for a star
01:16:46 <shachaf> did i "misinterpret" that self portrait
01:16:57 <shachaf> because i though that gray thing on the left was an elephant
01:17:13 <shachaf> but now it looks like it might be intended to be a cat tail instead of a trunk . . . . . .
01:17:27 <mnoqy> it's a cat with a rose for a head. science has gone too far.
01:17:40 <shachaf> just asked a question and answered it in the same irc session
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01:21:12 <Bike> "Turkic peoples and related groups migrated west from Turkestan and what is now Mongolia towards Eastern Europe, Iranian plateau and Anatolia and modern Turkey in many waves." this is unhelpful
01:21:41 <elliott> Bike: your connection sucks
01:21:47 <Bike> yeah it does :<
01:22:01 <oerjan> <+Bike> wow i... don't actually know how the turks ended up in turkey, now that you mention it. <-- they conquered it hth
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01:23:09 <elliott> this is why you should use a bouncer. then you can be cool and have an IPv6 address
01:23:13 <elliott> that is at least 20% of the reason I use one
01:23:19 <kmc> that seems unrelated
01:23:24 <elliott> just call me 2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:9fdd
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01:23:37 <elliott> kmc: well since it is not the future, my home internet connection does not support ipv6
01:24:02 <kmc> e111:077a:1337:h4x0r:
01:24:26 <kmc> also what ever happened to IPv5?!?!? there's something the federal reserve isn't telling us
01:24:43 <Bike_> oh moldova has an autonomous turkish area
01:25:10 <elliott> apparently i am connected to a server in lithuania
01:25:25 <elliott> i think i have known exactly one person to live in lithuania ever
01:25:29 <elliott> so i'm not convinced it exists...
01:25:48 <kmc> the intercity bus in lithuania was pretty nice and had a seatback entertainment system powered by android, full of pirated music and movies
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01:26:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: somewhere in europe
01:26:35 <kmc> looks like this thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Stream_Protocol is de facto IPv5
01:26:38 <elliott> like everywhere else you don't know where it is
01:26:42 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: it's baltic.
01:26:54 <kmc> "The protocol was notable for introducing the concepts of... a talkspurt"
01:27:07 <Bike> which, if you don't remember, means in that area in the north of russia's garbage heap
01:27:47 <kmc> it's next to poland and belarus and latvia and kaliningrad
01:27:49 <Bike> man i forgot that moldova has a major soviet party
01:28:00 <kmc> oh moldova.....
01:28:09 <kmc> it's basically the former soviet part of romania right
01:28:29 <kmc> our romanian guidebook had a short section on moldova that basically said "don't go to moldova, why would you go to moldova"
01:28:39 <Bike> "Another communist party was founded in 2012, the Communist Party of Moldova (2012) (CPM), which claims that the PCRM isn't actually communist but social democratic." not hardcore enough
01:28:49 <kmc> needs more hammers and/or sicles
01:29:11 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PCRM_logo.png you don't understand.
01:29:30 <kmc> that looks like an icon from a 1990s desktop application
01:29:43 <shachaf> U+1F490 COMBINING SICKLE TO THE LEFT; U+1F491 COMBINING HAMMER TO THE RIGHT
01:29:47 <kmc> COMMUN~1.EXE
01:29:51 <Bike> but yeah moldova also has a part in the east that's separatist and sort of ruled by the russians
01:29:56 <Bike> very georgia, maybe
01:30:01 <kmc> sucks / not surprising
01:30:20 <kmc> oh because ukraine is in the way and is much more western aligned
01:30:31 <kmc> that's trouble
01:31:18 <kmc> also since i'm looking at a map of russia: the road system is impressively hub-and-spoke around moscow
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01:43:22 <Bike> kmc: what about the rails?
01:44:35 <kmc> don't know
01:44:46 <kmc> here is a 1910 map of US railroads though: http://etc.usf.edu/maps/pages/2000/2090/2090.htm
01:45:21 <kmc> (and steamships)
01:45:33 <Bike> it looks like skin
01:46:16 <oerjan> shachaf: I AM DISAPPOINT
01:46:38 <oerjan> (http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f490/index.htm)
01:47:09 <shachaf> oerjan: Sorry. Should I have picked U+1F494?
01:48:12 <oerjan> well that or an _actual_ combining sickle, naturally.
01:49:01 <mnoqy> wow there are unicodde chafacters for yellow haeart and purple haert
01:50:04 <Lumpio-> Neither of them look purple nor yellow
01:50:33 <oerjan> i'm sure there are some characters that people put in new charsets just to mess with the unicode people.
01:51:07 <elliott> mnoqy: probably from emoji
01:51:25 <Bike> hm this book doesn't have a list of figures. there is no god
01:51:52 <oerjan> Bike: i think that's a little strict judgement of god even by my standards.
01:52:14 <Bike> look, i read the bible once, i think i know what i'm talking about
01:52:22 <mnoqy> the whole bible????
01:52:37 <Bike> always and forever
01:52:41 <kmc> oh this is the train pic i was looking for before http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/beach/fig18-27.jpg
01:52:53 <shachaf> um the bible isn't a book Bike it's a metaphor
01:52:54 <mnoqy> was it any good. a good read.
01:53:17 <Bike> Not really, no
01:53:24 <kmc> the bible isn't a book, it's like somebody stapled together a bit of a legal code, a phone book, some erotic poetry, and a fantasy novel
01:53:26 <Bike> kmc: light rail
01:53:32 <kmc> and then said 'here this is all very important'
01:53:51 <Bike> that's the phone book
01:54:11 <Bike> tbh i think the bible could have used more erotic poetry
01:54:17 <oerjan> shachaf: i think you can read metaphors if you use the right drugs
01:54:17 <elliott> you just mean it's not a novel
01:54:33 <shachaf> oerjan: does deconstructing them count
01:54:33 <Bike> well it's also divided into books.
01:54:51 <shachaf> the bible, book 4: the bible
01:55:02 <Bike> I already made a joke about Aczel sets and the bible sorry
01:55:10 <mnoqy> where does "bible" appear
01:55:16 <kmc> The Dark Tower VII: The Dark Tower
01:55:26 <Bike> ironically the character of the bible never appears in the bible
01:55:47 <Bike> she's in the talmud though, iirc
01:55:58 <elliott> movie of the bible where they say "isn't this some kind of... bible?" at a critical moment
01:56:03 <elliott> and everyone in the audience cheers
01:59:41 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_work#Lost_texts_referenced_in_the_Old_Testament fuck, i forgot how many books the bible talks about
01:59:46 <Bike> and none of them are the bible!
02:00:31 <elliott> The Acts of Solomon is a lost text that may have been written by the Biblical prophet Iddo, who was the author of other lost texts. The book is described in 1Kings 11:41, where it reads: "And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?"
02:00:58 <Bike> is this new to you elliott
02:01:04 <Bike> old books are /really/ repetitive
02:01:09 <elliott> If you liked The Bible, why not check out: The Acts of Solomon? Featuring all the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom!
02:01:18 <Bike> ok that was pretty good
02:01:18 <elliott> it's like they put an ad in the middle of the bible
02:01:36 <Bike> "Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?" i'm seeing a pattern here
02:01:54 <Bike> is it possible that the authors of the bible were actually huge shills
02:01:55 <elliott> this book isn't nearly commercial enough
02:02:01 <elliott> can you put a bunch of product placement for our other books in
02:02:21 <Bike> "Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually." i'm pretty sure they just cutpasted this shit in
02:02:23 <elliott> trying to push the Acts of Solomon to the soon-to-be-religious demographic right now
02:02:55 <Bike> just did some s/Solomon/Rehoboam/ and called it a day
02:02:56 <elliott> Bike: i like that P.S. there was war
02:03:20 <Bike> well it's the old testament
02:03:25 <Bike> "PS there was war" is basically implied
02:04:42 <Bike> "The Acts of Solomon is a lost text that may have been written by the Biblical prophet Iddo, who was the author of other lost texts. " gotta feel sorry for that dude
02:05:04 <Bike> if you liked acts of solomon, why not read the acts of rehoboam? oh wait you can't they're gone
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02:05:42 <elliott> probably iddo really sucked and nobody wanted to presreve his books
02:05:48 <elliott> because he was boring and just wrote lists of everyone's acts
02:05:54 <elliott> and he died sad and alone :(
02:06:23 <Bike> focus groups didn't enjoy the Acts of Iddo
02:07:35 <kmc> hahaha that's great
02:08:36 <shachaf> mnoq: hey how about a self portrait of kmc
02:08:44 <Fiora> http://media.tumblr.com/d2108a4a121d07af135c4d1890c100c6/tumblr_inline_mkkcrro4ra1qz4rgp.png I like my adventure time self portrait
02:09:04 <shachaf> kmc: does mnoqy have permission to draw a self portrait of you "if it comes to that"
02:09:12 <Bike> yeah sure i have black wings, what of it punk
02:09:18 <kmc> self portrait away
02:09:21 <Bike> i wonder wht you'd make a pink sword out of...
02:09:22 <kmc> Fiora: nice
02:09:34 <Bike> magic? flowers? some kind of toxin
02:10:12 <Bike> "Book of Bai Ze (simplified Chinese 白泽图; pinyin: Bái Zé Tú). A guide to the forms and habits of all 11,520 types of supernatural creatures in the world, and how to overcome their hauntings and attacks, as dictated by the mythical creature, Bai Ze to the Yellow Emperor in the 26th century BCE." i think we're missing out, people.
02:10:41 <Fiora> http://media.tumblr.com/83c724dcca643c2efc6a029da862aca2/tumblr_inline_mg1lv9akWr1r9jirc.png and this one (I love these little things)
02:11:03 <Bike> i just can't get over the argyle
02:11:12 <elliott> i would like a self portrait of fungot
02:11:12 <fungot> elliott: berkely is in california distance yes, it shouldn't be that hard
02:11:19 <elliott> eventually mnoqy will start charging for these
02:11:28 <mnoqy> i should make a list of people to self-portrait
02:11:46 <elliott> i'd hang a mnoqy self-portrait on my wall
02:11:49 <mnoqy> alright. made a list
02:12:32 <shachaf> with a little checkmark next to my name
02:12:40 <Fiora> what's wrong with argyle :<
02:12:41 <mnoqy> you already got one!!! i can make you another if you want
02:12:49 <Bike> Fiora: nothing, i just always notice it.
02:12:55 <shachaf> wait i meant on the list of already done self portraits
02:12:56 * Bike likes wearing plaid
02:12:58 <mnoqy> this is a list of "todo" portraits
02:13:03 <Fiora> I have like an argyle sweater or two
02:13:08 <mnoqy> you're on the already done list, yes
02:13:08 <shachaf> but it would be "a big honour" if you made another one
02:13:14 <Bike> Fiora: also: i assume your hair actually goes past your feet
02:13:28 <Fiora> only on chibi-me :P
02:13:45 <Bike> in reality, fiora's hair sticks straight up
02:13:48 <elliott> irl my hair trails behind me, engulfing all in its wake
02:13:50 <Bike> for several feet
02:14:02 <shachaf> in reality Fiora is bold and daring
02:14:02 <elliott> whole families, buildings have been devoured by the onslaught of hair
02:14:16 <shachaf> Fiora: your self portrait is in the topic of your channel now
02:14:23 <Bike> my hair's like that too elliott. it's hard to find good conditioner
02:15:01 <Bike> hm the foundational text of that prechristian atheism thing is gone too. shame
02:15:26 <Fiora> irl my hair is... like. normal long straight black hair? <.<
02:15:44 <Bike> well, yes, it's just funny to imagine eraserhead!fiora
02:15:55 <elliott> Bike: i've been thinking about getting my hair cut but i'm worried that i may be unable to negotiate with a government to provide the necessary land to house the remains
02:16:25 <Bike> Hey, hey. Eraserhead was a great film.
02:16:32 <Bike> elliott: imo use force
02:16:41 <Bike> «Inventio Fortunata (also Inventio Fortunate, Inventio Fortunat or Inventio Fortunatae), "Fortunate, or fortune-making, discovery", is a lost book, probably dating from the 14th century, containing a description of the North Pole as a magnetic island (the Rupes Nigra) surrounded by a giant whirlpool and four continents.» what in the heck
02:17:00 <elliott> everyone thinks i have black hair but it is actually dark brown
02:17:02 <elliott> truly i am a tortured soul
02:17:25 <shachaf> help what colour is my hair
02:17:37 <shachaf> oops that extra u made that line not line up with elliott's line
02:17:40 <shachaf> therefore british spelling is false
02:17:41 <mnoqy> trick question; shachaf is actually bald
02:17:47 <Bike> "Greenland was first settled at the orders of King Arthur, whose army supposedly conquered the North Atlantic islands"???
02:17:54 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you see that picture the other day..............
02:18:04 <mnoqy> shachaf is rainbow
02:18:18 <shachaf> i posted a picture of me being bald in #-lens
02:18:26 <mnoqy> oh i didn't see that
02:18:41 <Fiora> when does dark brown hair become black? like, is there a line
02:18:49 <Bike> there are no boundaries anywhere.
02:19:02 <elliott> well i think it's fairly obviously brown if you like look closely at it
02:19:06 <shachaf> there is a line and it's receding
02:19:25 <elliott> hair colour is weird though
02:19:29 <elliott> also eye colour. everything is weird
02:19:35 <Fiora> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcsizoQl8s1r9b6l2o1_500.gif
02:19:49 <Bike> actual picture of fiora
02:20:00 <Bike> (have you considered: a comb)
02:20:00 <elliott> help i'm reading about human hair colour on wikipedia
02:20:19 <shachaf> elliott: uh there's no article for that on wikipedia
02:20:32 <shachaf> elliott: there's an article about human hair color though, maybe you're reading that
02:21:27 <elliott> "The hair color of mummies or buried bodies can change." ok
02:23:37 <Fiora> Bike: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Jolteon/Avatar%20Requests/hyouka.gif fiora_and_bike.gif
02:25:12 <Bike> are we dancing
02:25:18 <shachaf> _The 35th of May_ (or _Conrad's Ride to the South Seas_), by Erich Kästner
02:25:19 <mnoqy> yes it's the "shake"
02:25:42 <Bike> it just looks like i'm shaking my head back and forth rhythmically
02:25:53 <Bike> fiora's rhythm is different though. this is a hard dance.
02:25:57 <mnoqy> you're being shaken/shook
02:26:02 <Bike> also i like how i look entirely boring.
02:26:12 <Fiora> (you're not actually boring)
02:26:19 <Bike> (i look boring)
02:26:25 <elliott> bicycles: the most boring species
02:26:38 <mnoqy> real bike has rainbow tassels and a ringy bell
02:26:41 <Bike> I'm just saying you could replace me with a tape recorder saying what I say and you wouldn't be missing anything
02:26:55 <Bike> well, i guess you'd be missing typing
02:26:58 <Fiora> but a tape recorder can't talk back
02:27:05 <Fiora> it doesn't have feelings :<
02:27:09 <Bike> No, see, the tape recorder knows everything you say in advance.
02:27:16 <Bike> Or well the thing that's taped does.
02:27:19 <mnoqy> it's from a science fiction
02:27:25 <Bike> I might not have thought this out sorry
02:27:47 <kmc> is it considered rude to ask a Bike how many gears they have
02:27:53 <kmc> is that like asking someone how big their ass is
02:28:10 <kmc> are fixies discriminated against in bike society
02:28:16 <Fiora> I'm not sure? I mean, having more gears is often considered better
02:29:00 <Fiora> yeah, fixed bikes really are discriminated against, from what I hear. the whole thing really grinds me gears
02:29:01 <Bike> fixies are kind of dumb but they often make up for it by sheer force of will
02:29:07 <Bike> they can be really skillful
02:29:29 <Bike> no, no, keep talking like a pirate.
02:29:41 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md103vVfUl1rks9x0o1_500.gif fiora and bike read papers.pdf.gif?
02:29:43 <mnoqy> i've heard praise of fixys by virtue of they're simpler to repair them yourself
02:29:45 <Bike> "The first draft of Thomas Carlyle's The French Revolution: A History was sent to John Stuart Mill, whose maid mistakenly burned it, " what, how did you...
02:30:01 <Bike> Fiora: we don't seem all that focused on the papers.
02:31:49 <kmc> mnoqy: yeah and less likely to break in the first place
02:32:09 <elliott> mnoqy: so they're called fixies because
02:33:06 <kmc> 'why the long face'
02:33:34 <Fiora> maybe it's related to the fact that he sounds kind of horse
02:33:51 <shachaf> what's the fixed point of a broken bicycle
02:34:16 <elliott> i wanted to say / why the long face
02:34:59 <Bike> "Several pages of the original screenplay for Werner Herzog's Aguirre, der Zorn Gottes were reportedly thrown out of the window of a bus after one of his football team-mates threw up on them."
02:36:04 <kmc> and maybe you don't need so many gears for flat city riding?
02:36:10 <kmc> but i can't really imagine riding without a freewheel
02:36:16 <kmc> you can't coast on a fixie.
02:36:55 <mnoqy> do they offer fixy+freewheel
02:37:03 <kmc> i dunno what it's called
02:37:06 <mnoqy> that'd be, like, a trike, right
02:37:06 <kmc> maybe just single-speed bike
02:37:26 <kmc> freewheel refers to the ratchet action on the rear wheel
02:37:39 <kmc> if the rear wheel is moving faster than the chain, it's not coupled to the chain
02:38:25 <mnoqy> hm i guess with a trike you don't even have that problem because you likely don't have a chain there in the first place
02:38:56 <Bike> we've been over this
02:39:22 <Bike> It's vestigial.
02:39:36 <shachaf> imo tell that third wheel to go away and stop being a third wheel
02:39:59 <Bike> no slurs, please
02:40:52 <Bike> Fiora: so are you watching that anime now or are you just infatuated with the protagonists and their lack of psychotic anime hair
02:41:16 <Fiora> umm she was just the character daki compared me to. or at least like, found a gif and was like "this is youuuuuuu"
02:41:37 <Fiora> I'm not sure I'd like it, it's kyoani <.< but
02:41:37 <Bike> yeah but you had two gifs!
02:41:48 <Fiora> yes I like, googled them
02:42:01 <Bike> sounds complicated
02:42:07 <Bike> @google hyouka hair gif
02:42:09 <lambdabot> http://www.donmai.us/posts/1180806
02:42:09 <lambdabot> Title: chitanda eru and oreki houtarou (hyouka) - Danbooru
02:42:21 <Fiora> I just gis'd 'filetype:gif eri hyouka'
02:42:32 <Bike> wow that actually worked.
02:42:37 <Fiora> I don't have amazing google-fu or something (is that what they call it?)
02:43:00 <Bike> he looks pretty out of it in this one though
02:43:09 <mnoqy> @google another hyouka hair gif
02:43:10 <lambdabot> http://www.donmai.us/posts/1180806
02:43:10 <lambdabot> Title: chitanda eru and oreki houtarou (hyouka) - Danbooru
02:43:19 <Fiora> I don't think google is wolfram alpha
02:43:31 <mnoqy> @google another (DIFFERENT) hyouka hair gif
02:43:33 <lambdabot> http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/hyouka%20ova
02:45:13 <Bike> apparently this guy can't smile
02:45:15 <Bike> perfect pick, fiora
02:46:00 <elliott> have you ever seen a bike smile
02:46:13 <elliott> if yes: where do you buy your bikes
02:46:21 <Fiora> h-he seems to be happy sometimes....
02:47:08 <mnoqy> http://elitechoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/joyrider-smile-cycle.jpg
02:47:16 <mnoqy> elite choice bike's
02:47:24 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/4806bc39c25f231a1d3f2902c41144ac/tumblr_mhplttabZ11rf0u54o1_500.gif "sure, water. whatever."
02:47:37 <Bike> elliott: i think monqy's got you here
02:48:18 <mnoqy> it has 2 smiles that's twice as happy as any person can ever be
02:48:39 <mnoqy> except for conjoined twins, maybe
02:48:45 <elliott> those smiles are going to get a headache when someone rides the bike
02:49:50 <shachaf> i used to think "siamese cats" meant two cats that were connected together
02:50:49 <Bike> 101 Dalmations was rather confusing.
02:51:10 <shachaf> oh no you thought that too??
02:51:15 <shachaf> what other things did you use to think
02:51:56 <shachaf> btw you're a native english speaker so we hold you to a higher standard
02:51:57 <Bike> I used to think that being experiencing being abducted by aliens was logically impossible, because they'd just make you forget everything, which would prevent the experience from ever being experienced.
02:52:54 <kmc> Bike: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3r8l4w/
02:52:55 <shachaf> I remember there were no questions.
02:53:16 <Bike> kmc: Yeah, see, now imagine that he's seven
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02:56:44 <shachaf> Answers, yes. There were answers to everything.
03:11:05 <oerjan> shachaf: did you get the proof to the riemann hypethosis plz
03:24:06 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&curid=53398&diff=550452129&oldid=547527561 confuses me, the summary says Wierd -> Weird but it's not actually changed. (and of course shouldn't be.)
03:27:53 <mnoqy> the expansion of bsg is "billing services group"
03:28:16 <Bike> battlestar galactica, i'm guessing
03:28:31 <mnoqy> that's only two words
03:28:44 <Bike> it's science fiction.
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03:29:17 <mnoqy> that just moves the initialism from BG to BS
03:29:31 <mnoqy> probably not an improvement
03:30:10 <coppro> http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4076
03:30:19 <Bike> my usual state of being
03:30:47 <mnoqy> bgtbg "battlestar galactica the board game"
03:31:31 <mnoqy> probably this is one of those nerd things eh
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03:34:50 <oerjan> only spammers active on the wiki
03:35:05 <oerjan> (unsuccessfully, but still)
03:35:16 <elliott> would you like to sort it out
03:35:46 <oerjan> some day elliott will snap
03:36:55 <elliott> no, this is my post-snap state
03:37:59 <oerjan> i'm sorry, that cannot be correct, i'm still not an administrator
03:38:11 <elliott> and *I'm* still not an op.
03:38:20 <elliott> despite my attractive & well-designed campaign self-portrait
03:38:32 <oerjan> well ais523 hasn't commented on it yet
03:40:10 <elliott> i grudgingly accept your response
03:40:34 <elliott> that man can surely appreciate a good self-portrait
03:40:52 <oerjan> itt elliott goes overboard
03:42:34 <elliott> oerjan I've been over every board
03:50:29 <kmc> what kind of beer should i buy
03:51:14 <kmc> "QUESTION: What kind of bear is the best"
03:51:47 <Fiora> that's a really grizzly question
03:52:53 <oerjan> Fiora: no need polarizing this
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04:07:39 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/USRail1835.jpg to get from Boston to DC in 1835 you'd take a train to Providence, a boat to New York, a train to Philadelphia, a boat to Wilmington, a train to Chesapeake Bay, a boat to Baltimore, and a train to DC
04:08:10 <Bike> could you just ride a horse
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04:08:35 <Fiora> riding a horse a long distance is pretty hard isn't it
04:08:42 <kmc> horses are slower than trains, this was determined empirically at some point
04:08:53 <Bike> ride... a bike
04:09:04 <kmc> Fiora: I think so; you need places to swap out fresh horses, or else further delay while your horse rests
04:09:07 <kmc> you also need to feed it
04:09:37 <Bike> i guess there were like horse rental places then
04:09:59 <oerjan> horses are easy if you just have due diligence
04:10:34 <kmc> yeah i'm not sure how it works to rent a horse
04:10:35 <Bike> "Festo is promoting this holistic system approach by ensuring that functional integration and the reduction of external interfaces are integrated into intelligent system solutions." help me
04:10:48 <kmc> in a situation where you won't be seen again for months
04:11:02 <elliott> you just wouldn't go from boston to dc
04:11:04 <kmc> you might need to put down substantial collateral
04:11:08 <elliott> because it'd be too much fucking work
04:11:10 <kmc> elliott: yes that would be the wisest course of action
04:11:20 <elliott> it's 1835 so probably there is nothing of interest in DC whatsoever really
04:11:25 <elliott> that might apply in 2013 too
04:11:31 <Bike> i bet travelogues of the period don't even mention this
04:11:42 <Bike> in the same way you don't mention every time you take a shit, i mean
04:11:46 <kmc> what if you're elected to congress though
04:11:53 <kmc> what a fucking chore that would be
04:12:12 <elliott> kmc: i like how that makes it sound as if it's something that could happen involuntary
04:12:19 <elliott> "oh shit, i've been elected to congress again"
04:12:34 <kmc> elliott: well lets see, the british had burned it down about 20 years prior
04:12:47 <Bike> "maybe i can get that fucking railroad thing working"
04:13:01 <Fiora> kmc: yeah, I'm remembering the whole pony express system now
04:13:34 <Bike> see they just say "horse and carriage" but that's not very fucking descriptive
04:13:34 <Fiora> (wasn't that, like, an early example of "startup that sounded really cool, but required a lot of infrastructure and ended up not making money despite being really cool)
04:13:50 <kmc> heh, maybe
04:13:57 <kmc> railroads were also like that a lot of the time
04:14:10 <Bike> i think i only know about the pony express at all from lot 49
04:14:12 <oerjan> elliott: hm i think you could theoretically get elected to the norwegian parliament against your will. not a smart move by the party to list you, but still...
04:14:14 <Bike> probably not a good source
04:14:41 <elliott> oerjan: that would be the best
04:14:41 <oerjan> (well, not "you" specifically here, since you're not a citizen.)
04:14:45 <Bike> Oh, maybe you could hire a coachman to take you
04:14:49 <elliott> it was better when i thought you meant even a non-citizen
04:15:21 <kmc> 'Included in that 20 pounds (9.1 kg) were a water sack, a Bible, a horn for alerting the relay station master to prepare the next horse, a revolver, and a choice of a rifle or another revolver.'
04:15:41 <kmc> this is my new packing list
04:15:57 <kmc> elliott: what if you have to hit something at range.....
04:16:06 <elliott> kmc: i can't hear you over the sound of having two revolvers
04:16:19 <Bike> then he ventriloquists the bullet by using the horn
04:16:32 <kmc> put the horn on the front of the revolver
04:16:34 <kmc> like a reverse silencer
04:16:35 <Bike> the wild west is basically like nethack right
04:16:45 <oerjan> <Bike> see they just say "horse and carriage" but that's not very fucking descriptive <-- i hear they go together like love and marriage.
04:17:11 <kmc> Fiora: wow I didn't know it operated for only 18 months
04:17:14 <Bike> http://www.festo.com/ someone help me find the fucking papers i can't find them through all the bullshit
04:17:32 <Bike> "Product innovation"
04:17:58 <kmc> oh, interrupted by civil war
04:19:04 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pony_Express_Poster.jpg i love this style where it's like USE EVERY FONT YOU HAVE
04:19:42 <Fiora> old-style advertising and posters are amazing
04:20:20 <pikhq_> The more fonts you have the better.
04:20:21 <Fiora> http://sciencebasedpharmacy.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/snake-oil-circa-1903.jpg
04:20:37 <Bike> What the fuck, a dollar? How much was, like, a loaf of bread?
04:20:47 <elliott> everything costed a dollar
04:20:48 <Bike> A dollar to ride a horse across the fucking country with your stupid mail
04:20:51 <coppro> it's far too easy for me to watch videos of parliament
04:20:57 <Fiora> Bike: I'd guess it's like $100+ nowadays?
04:21:08 <Bike> Fiora: the genuine article.
04:21:16 <kmc> http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi says $25.18
04:21:22 <Bike> still that's just surreal to imagine
04:21:26 <kmc> coppro: are they interesting
04:21:31 <Bike> was it subsidized?
04:21:38 <kmc> well they put a lot of letters on one pony
04:21:40 <Bike> (was anything subsidized, back then)
04:21:50 <coppro> kmc: well, it's parliament
04:21:52 <Fiora> it was like fedex overnight mail today
04:21:59 <Fiora> same sort of thing?
04:22:08 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Affiche_MrKite.jpg
04:22:19 <Bike> wait... ten days is all it took, huh.
04:22:35 <elliott> does anyone know what ordering relation on CPOs is used to form a CPO of CPOs
04:22:36 <Bike> I guess oregon trail stuff is based around moving a good deal slower
04:22:42 <elliott> (please interpret that question like I'm an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing)
04:22:55 <Bike> chief petty officer
04:22:56 <kmc> Bike: yeah cause you're hauling your whole house along in a bunch of stupid wagons
04:23:12 <pikhq_> Bike: The thing is, that's 10 days over a made road, going as fast as you can.
04:23:14 <kmc> don't forget stopping now and then to kill 900 pounds of buffalo
04:23:15 <Bike> it's just like i've been across the country on land and it wasn't ten days
04:23:27 <Bike> wait. actually it might have been. hm
04:23:42 <kmc> google says it's a 43 hour drive from NY to SF
04:23:43 <Bike> stupid "being ten and obsessed with mario" aspect
04:23:47 <pikhq_> Versus several months going over rough country in wagon train, just trying to fucking get there.
04:23:56 <kmc> that's with no stops
04:24:21 <pikhq_> kmc: We can install a catheter and an IV line with an amphetamine drip, right?
04:24:38 <kmc> cathether / just pee in a mcdonalds cup
04:24:46 <Bike> Fiora: oh man the snake oil ad has a testimonial. awesome
04:24:55 <Fiora> those kind of thing
04:24:57 <Fiora> they're so amazing
04:24:59 <Jafet> Can your car go for 43 hours
04:25:11 <kmc> it's pretty common to see plastic water bottles filled with what looks like pee lying in ditches at the side of the road
04:25:18 <kmc> gross but true
04:25:30 <pikhq_> Jafet: If I steal the Prius. :P
04:25:37 <Bike> well there's a good chance it's just wildlife'd
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04:26:10 <Bike> also i went back and checked the burma book i mentioned, it claims on flat ground a healthy person can walk 25 km in six hours a day
04:26:39 <kmc> says they would carry 20 pounds of letters on a horse, which comes out to $16,000 in 2012 dollars
04:26:50 <pikhq_> Bike: That seems a bit low actually.
04:27:05 <kmc> is that for an indefinite number of days?
04:27:22 <Bike> Indefinite number of days, also assuming military grouping and, I assume, supply lines
04:27:32 <kmc> carrying loads of stuff?
04:27:44 <pikhq_> I was just gonna say, "... I... walk faster than that"
04:27:50 <coppro> kmc: but seriously, I could download like the entire proceedings of parliament since September '09
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04:28:02 <Bike> coppro: sounds like a fun weekened
04:28:14 <kmc> get drunk and watch parliament on 9 screens at once
04:28:19 <kmc> also whose parliament
04:28:38 <Bike> pikhq_: yeah, obviously there's going to be a difference between one driven person and a bunch of disinterested soldiers
04:29:38 <Bike> hm, wolfram says at that speed it'd be 166 days to get from NYC to san fran as the crow flies
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04:29:45 <pikhq_> Soldiers carrying a shit-ton no less.
04:30:23 <Bike> It might also be factoring in pillaging time, i dunno
04:30:24 <pikhq_> Weight makes rather a huge difference.
04:31:10 <Bike> also estimated from the topography that in a particular part of eastern burma, the topography would reduce it to 50 km in 3 days
04:31:19 <Bike> good sentence. yes. good construction
04:33:45 <kmc> what's this book about burma about
04:34:28 <Bike> People outside the states and empires, basically.
04:34:52 <Bike> it's titled "The Art of Not Being Governed: An Anarchist History of Upland Southeast Asia" but i swear it's not idiotic
04:35:20 <Bike> anyway so that means factors like how effectively a state could control an area come into play, etc
04:40:16 <kmc> does it cover through the colonial and communist era too
04:41:12 <Bike> No, it's premodernity, which is one of the reasons I like it (it doesn't get bogged down in political sniping, i mean)
04:41:27 <Bike> it offhandedly mentions things like KMT holing up in burmese mountains, though
04:42:11 <Bike> part of the thesis is also that colonial things like telegrams and trains make it easier to exert state power.
04:43:05 <kmc> seems likely
04:43:12 <kmc> the british built a shit-ton of railways in india
04:43:26 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_at_the_China%E2%80%93Burma_border (the CIA was involved, i'm sure you're shocked)
04:46:05 <kmc> not so many trains got built in africa though
04:46:53 <kmc> http://mappery.com/maps/World-Railways-Map.png
04:46:55 <Bike> I seem to remember from history class that the brits were kind of pissed about not getting a continuous route from the north to south africa during the great game
04:47:14 <Bike> Is that modern railways?
04:47:26 <kmc> i think that's current yeah
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04:48:14 <kmc> didn't know cuba has such a rail network
04:49:05 <Bike> huh, "the graveyard of empires" is an established nickname for afghanistan. that's pretty badass
04:49:51 <Bike> http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/images/afri1914.gif Yeah, you can see the Germans had a block on British pathways.
04:50:12 <mnoqy> the nursing home of empires
04:50:33 <mnoqy> the playground of empires
04:50:36 <mnoqy> the playpen of empires
04:50:45 <Bike> I still love that Ethiopia is just chilling.
04:50:49 <mnoqy> some more bad-ass names
04:50:53 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Liemba
04:50:55 <Bike> Colonialism. Psh.
04:51:26 <kmc> the germans and the british shipped some boats to Lake Tanganyika by road and rail so that they could have naval battles there
04:52:19 <Bike> ...what, it's a working ship dating from the kaiser
04:52:35 <kmc> also in 1917 the germans attempted to resupply German East Africa by zeppelin
04:52:39 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_LZ_104
04:52:58 <kmc> 'Because it would be impossible to resupply the airship with hydrogen gas upon its arrival in Africa, it was planned that no return trip would be made. Instead, it was projected that every part of the ship be cannibalized for use by Lettow-Vorbeck's bush army. The outer envelope would be used for tents, muslin linings would be bandages, duralumin framework would be for wireless towers, and so on.'
04:53:05 <kmc> that's fucking badass
04:53:39 <elliott> "how would you like to go to africa forever"
04:53:52 <Bike> i believe that was the basic premise of colonialism
04:54:51 <Bike> "The crew also suffered from headaches, hallucinations and general fatigue in the mid-day heat and freezing cold at night." this sounds ripe for a film adaptation
04:55:13 <mnoqy> i probably wouldn't want to go to africa forever
04:55:36 <mnoqy> have you all heard of that silly mars thing? now that's some pop culture i can get into
04:56:03 <Bike> like... the planet?
04:56:07 <elliott> do you mean the fake thing
04:56:30 <Bike> I'm pretty sure Mars exists.
04:57:24 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/The_End_of_the_%27Baby-Killer%27.png
04:57:55 <mnoqy> Yes it is! Mars One has been working on this project in secret since January of 2011. It has taken us until May 2012 to expose it publicly because we are then certain of its technical feasibility and means of finance.
04:57:59 <mnoqy> "totally not a hoax, guys"
04:58:09 <kmc> sounds legit
04:58:30 <elliott> anyway looking at the wp article there's enough people who are "real people" involved that i guess it probably isn't a hoax
04:58:37 <elliott> instead it can just be impractical
04:59:43 <mnoqy> Chris Welch, director of Masters Programs at the International Space University has said "Even ignoring the potential mismatch between the project income and its costs and questions about its longer-term viability, the Mars One proposal does not demonstrate a sufficiently deep understanding of the problems to give real confidence that the project would be able to meet its very ambitious schedule."
04:59:50 <mnoqy> Space tourist Richard Garriott stated in response to Mars One, "Many have interesting viable starting plans. Few raise the money to be able to pull it off."
04:59:57 <mnoqy> man, how would you like to be a space tourist
05:00:12 <mnoqy> international space university!!!!
05:00:19 <mnoqy> it's like we're in the future. the space future
05:01:06 <elliott> it's kind of a shame space is unpleasant and awful
05:01:17 <elliott> really takes the appeal out
05:01:28 <Bike> "The protagonist of O Olho de Hertzog, a 2010 novel by João Paulo Borges Coelho, set in post-WWI Mozambique, arrives in Africa by jumping from the airship in a parachute."
05:02:08 <Bike> what the shit, a permanent mars settlement by '23
05:02:28 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Mars_Excursion_Module.jpg Artist's conception of the Mars Excursion Module (MEM) proposed in a NASA Study in 1963.
05:02:35 <Bike> "A global reality-TV media event is intended to provide most of the funds to finance the expedition. It should begin with the astronaut selection process (with some public participation) and continue on through the first years of living on Mars" you sure this isn't a joke
05:02:56 <kmc> sucks to be halfway to mars and then the dodgy startup sending you goes into receivership
05:02:59 <elliott> they had some real low quality green screen video thing on their website like a year or two ago
05:03:05 <elliott> it was really hoax-looking then
05:03:48 <Jafet> I think if you take money from people (or investors), it can be called a scam
05:04:35 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/Mars_mission.jpg artist's life on mars, circa 1989
05:04:53 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Manndmissiononmarsnasa.jpg cgi invented by 2009
05:05:23 <kmc> oh man! look at those cavemen go, it's the freakiest show
05:05:42 <Bike> So... why do they want to do this
05:05:57 <Jafet> mnoqy: "in the past 20 years, we've learned that mars vehicles need good suspension systems"
05:06:34 <kmc> all these people are just standing around like 'welp we're on mars now'
05:07:11 <kmc> 'guess i'll stand next to that tower of varying size spheres'
05:07:13 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Concept_Mars_colony.jpg this one's pretty cute
05:08:02 <kmc> hydroponic technology will provide our mars astronauts with the dankest bud imaginable
05:08:15 <Jafet> What is it with all the blue jumpsuits
05:08:21 <kmc> oh they have a solar thermal energy tower, that's cool
05:08:33 <Jafet> I guess only instituted people would want to go to mars
05:08:38 <Bike> mnoqy: is that supposed to be a computer that spacenaut's holding
05:08:58 <Bike> "Wired Magazine gave it a plausibility score of 2 out of 10 as part of their 2012 Most Audacious Private Space Exploration Plans"
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05:11:12 <kmc> does mars have radiation protecting belts
05:11:16 <Bike> meanwhile the International Space University includes "Lectures covering all major disciplines related to space, with corresponding workshops and roundtables," and "Specific skills training"
05:11:21 -!- sebbu has joined.
05:11:30 <kmc> looks like no
05:11:40 <Bike> "IDEAS for Africa: Identifying and Developing Effective Applications of Space for Africa"
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05:12:13 <kmc> that's a bad backronym and they should feel bad
05:13:21 <Bike> imo we should make AFRICA an acrony
05:13:42 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/TerraformedMars.jpg artists went kind of crazy on this one
05:14:13 <elliott> A Friendly Real Imaginary Crap Africa
05:14:25 <mnoqy> just like real real africa
05:16:25 <Bike> anyway i'm gonna check out these IDEAS to see what's up
05:16:33 <Bike> The report identifies new ways in which innovations from the space industry could enhance the lives of Africans. It focuses in particular on South Africa, Morocco and Liberia and evaluates the impact, distribution and utilization of spinoff technologies, satellite applications and space business potentials in improving the socio-economic development of these countries.
05:17:01 <mnoqy> astronaut ice cream
05:17:23 <mnoqy> clearly the greatest innovation from the space industry
05:17:32 <Bike> oh jesus this is 164 pages
05:17:47 <Bike> with smiling africans and an elephant on the cover i dunno if i can handle this
05:17:58 <mnoqy> is it a space elephant
05:18:07 <mnoqy> are there cartoon rockets
05:18:09 <mnoqy> are there real rockets
05:18:19 <Bike> btw all the projects have names like this. FERTILE Moon: Feasibility of Extraction of Resources and Toolkit for in-situ Lunar Exploration
05:18:37 <Bike> "Human Missions to Europa and Titan – Why not?"
05:19:05 <Bike> MISSION: Multi-mission Innovative Space System for an Information Optimized Network
05:19:19 <Bike> "A new term for the integrated systems needed to support a human society on Mars, is presented. The potential applications of nontraditional and oftentimes controversial methods are examined to support the settlement of Mars. Specifically, the authors focus on the integration and application of advanced technologies in fields like genetic engineering, biotechnology, robotics and terraforming, before the end of the century." it's just like my a
05:19:47 <mnoqy> it's just like your a[cuts off but i'm guessing you meant "animes" that's what they all say i can assure you]
05:20:59 <Bike> Hm, there are actual Africans involved. That's good.
05:21:25 <mnoqy> are you sure they're not fake africans
05:21:45 <Bike> "Nzekwe" seems pretty legit
05:22:30 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/ISU_SSP12_poster.jpg
05:23:01 <mnoqy> whoa is that a cape
05:26:09 <kmc> in two weeks i get to vote in a \rainbow{SPECIAL ELECTION}
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05:27:00 <mnoqy> what makes it special
05:27:04 -!- augur has joined.
05:27:16 <Bike> i wonder if this cyborg paper is going to be like the original cyborg paper
05:27:59 <mnoqy> half robot, half paper
05:29:14 <mnoqy> i searched for cyborg paper and the first 2 results are sites selling...uhhh....
05:29:20 <mnoqy> Order "Cyborg" Essays and Thesis Research Writing
05:29:20 <mnoqy> Buy Purchase 'Cyborg' essays for a degree and examine MLA format essay writing services for argumentative term papers based on 'Cyborg'.
05:29:24 -!- btiffin has left.
05:29:27 <mnoqy> Free cyborg Essays and Papers
05:29:28 <mnoqy> Free cyborg papers, essays, and research papers. ... Your search returned 49 essays for "cyborg": These results are sorted by most relevant first (ranked search).
05:29:58 <fizzie> I didn't get anyone selling anything when I googled it. :/
05:30:09 <mnoqy> A Manifesto for Cyborgs Paper by Mightystudents.com
05:30:09 <mnoqy> Paper Topic: A Manifesto for Cyborgs . A Reflection of the Cyborg 's Manifesto. The Cyborg Manifesto 's general idea is that under different definitions , all of us could be considered cyborgs .
05:30:11 <Bike> mnoqy what have you been googling.....
05:30:24 <mnoqy> this is ddg silly goose
05:30:52 <Bike> what have you been goosing....
05:30:56 <kmc> mnoqy: held at an unusual time, to replace John Kerry who left the Senate to be Secretary of State
05:31:23 <mnoqy> ah, a politics thing
05:31:36 <mnoqy> Cyborg - Essay - Krscasey - Free Term Papers, Research Papers ...
05:31:37 <mnoqy> Read this essay and over 1,100,000 others like it now. Don't miss your chance to earn better grades and be a better writer!
05:31:49 <Bike> 'techno-ecosphere'
05:32:11 <mnoqy> cyborg ieee paper pdf - Seminar Topics Project Ideas On ...
05:32:11 <mnoqy> Are you looking for cyborg ieee paper pdf ? Get details of cyborg ieee paper pdf.We collected most searched pages list related with cyborg ieee paper pdf and more about it...
05:32:46 <mnoqy> Cyborg | Cyborg Subjects
05:32:46 <mnoqy> WE SHALL OVERCOME! The Posthuman Discourse as a Symptom of Today's Negation of the Unconscious by Jacob Johanssen The reading of the posthuman discourse for this paper is somewhat selective.
05:33:08 <mnoqy> how could this one search be so rich
05:33:13 <Bike> "However, human beings thrive on challenges, especially seemingly impossible ones! Hence, to dismiss the idea of terraforming a planet - at some point in the distant future - may be akin to dismissing mankind's genius for conquering the apparently impossible." why is every space thing like this
05:33:39 <Bike> "Terraforming from a Buddhist perspective" nevermind, this paper is awesome
05:33:44 <mnoqy> Essay on spiritual cyborg - Essays and Papers Online - Direct ...
05:33:45 <mnoqy> An essay or paper on spiritual cyborg. We are letting our lives be controlled by technology. The advances that are being made are destroying any belief that religion and tradition alike hold. Technology has traditionally evolved as the result of human needs. Invention will always rise-up to meet ...
05:35:01 <Bike> "Utilitarianism vs. Humanism: Humans as a Means?"
05:35:02 <mnoqy> ALIEN CYBORGS VERSUS Which one of these would you rather watch? The Riddick series or the Game of Thrones series and why? Take into account the Books, ... who meets Paper?! How the movie SHOULD have happened if it happened in the REAL world!
05:35:17 <Bike> mnoqy i'm trying to read here
05:35:41 <Bike> holy shit they have a "list of acronyms"
05:35:47 <Bike> two pages long
05:36:08 <kmc> i read "Humans as a Meme?"
05:36:11 <mnoqy> aliencyborgs.com apparently a nerd site
05:36:33 <Bike> anyway this has multiple sections on modifying the lymphatic system somehow, i'm actually interested
05:36:53 <mnoqy> Paper presentation on cyborgs...? - Yahoo! Answers India
05:36:54 <mnoqy> am plannin to present a paper on this topic. pls help me with some reference sites and books.. pleeease. 4 years ago; Report Abuse; by humtummo... Member since: 13 August 2006 Total points: 1,428 (Level 3) ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg
05:36:56 <kmc> LIST OF ACRONYMS: List Integrating Some Terminology Of Fine Authentic Credibility Relating to Our New Year Media System
05:37:22 <Bike> BWLSS: Bio-regenerative Wearable Life Support System.
05:37:41 <mnoqy> Cyborg PhD Dissertation Examples - Write a Master's Thesis on ...
05:37:41 <mnoqy> Cyborg dissertation writing service to custom write a master's Cyborg thesis for a college dissertation research proposal. ... we've written hundreds of doctoral-level thesis papers and dissertations for research—24 hours a day, ...
05:38:20 -!- kmc has set topic: Rise of the Machines | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:38:36 <Vorpal> mnoqy, is that some spam you got?
05:38:52 <Bike> it's some spam he went out and found himself
05:38:56 <mnoqy> i get lots of cyborg spam, yes
05:39:06 <Bike> also wait, are you telling me people pay to get their doctoral theses written
05:39:49 <mnoqy> Kevin Warwick, Cyborg morals, cyborg values, cyborg ethics ...
05:39:49 <mnoqy> The era of the Cyborg is now upon us. This has enormous implications on ethical values for both humans and cyborgs. In this paper the state of play is discussed. Routes ...
05:39:55 <mnoqy> Becoming a Cyborg - LotsOfEssays.com - Over 32,000 essays ...
05:39:55 <mnoqy> An essay or paper on Becoming a Cyborg. I would reject the offer to become a cyborg because the possible disadvantage of the loss of some or all of my humanity, of what makes me human, far outweighs the possible advantages. The stated advantages are hardly guaranteed, in any case. As with any mach
05:40:04 <Bike> http://primedissertations.com/blog/the-right-time-to-buy-a-phd-thesis/ what. what.
05:40:08 <Bike> how. why. what
05:40:17 <kmc> it's too late to think that we can worship human emotions 'cause we've already evolved into machines in our minds
05:40:47 <Bike> LBNP: Lower Body Negative Pressure this had better relate to sex
05:41:07 <Bike> LONE Lines of Non Extension
05:42:20 <mnoqy> Mad Catz® Cyborg® Gaming Keyboard For PC | Staples®
05:42:20 <mnoqy> Staples®. has the Mad Catz® Cyborg® Gaming Keyboard For PC you need for home office or business. Shop our great selection of Accessories, Gaming Accessories, Gaming, TV & Home Entertainment and more!
05:42:28 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2suit
05:42:47 <Bike> 2suit too furious, i assume
05:42:48 -!- oerjan has set topic: Get a Rise out of the Machines | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
05:43:20 <mnoqy> History Channel, The Universe: Sex in Space
05:43:23 <kmc> 'Cracked Magazine listed the 2Suit as one of "seven real suits that will soon make the world a cooler place.'
05:43:39 <kmc> they're really scraping the bottom of the listicle barrel
05:44:54 <Bike> "It was also found that terraforming has fully entered the scientific arena and that the question has shifted from whether terraforming is possible to whether it is moral, ethical, and legal" slow down there champ
05:45:06 <mnoqy> [PDF] cyborg sex in public, fan fiction on-line, and a fantasy of ...
05:45:07 <mnoqy> "cyborg sex…" J L Russo1 cyborg sex in public, fan fiction on-line, and a fantasy of political consumption by Julie Levin Russo www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~julier/thesis/
05:45:34 <Bike> Since the 1970’s, people have been writing fan fiction and organizing communities in which it could be shared. Many of these stories about characters swiped from television, movies, or other mass media revolve around queer erotic narratives. Captain Janeway and the cyborg Seven of Nine from the show Star Trek: Voyager have become a common lesbian pairing, part of the fan fiction explosion that occurred with the popularization of the internet
05:46:11 <Fiora> are you reading wikipedia's article on fanfiction? XD
05:46:25 <Bike> No, it's someone's thesis, monqy just linked it.
05:46:42 <Bike> Apparently it was accepted for credit.
05:46:47 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> LIST OF ACRONYMS: List Integrating Some Terminology Of Fine Authentic Credibility Relating to Our New Year Media System
05:46:56 <HackEgo> 1032) <kmc> LIST OF ACRONYMS: List Integrating Some Terminology Of Fine Authentic Credibility Relating to Our New Year Media System
05:47:42 <mnoqy> SniffCode.com : Cyborg Fashion
05:47:43 <mnoqy> In real life Cyborgs don't need sunglasses anymore than they need eyes... and these Exposé mannequins don't either. Consequently, a large black layer of X-Ray paper smothers their eye sockets.
05:48:01 <mnoqy> Cyborg. Everything has been done. There are no new ideas left. Paper is wood? Do you recognise this face? Do you agree lace is lovely?
05:48:16 <elliott> You can’t initially decide to buy a PhD thesis when you learned that you are going to be making a PhD thesis. There are still students that are self-motivated and believe that they have to come up a PhD thesis with their own efforts. You have to see to it that buying a PhD thesis is your last resort when all attempts are exhausted. Besides, you already have undergone undergraduate and master thesis. The format used in master thesis is practically
05:48:22 <mnoqy> The cyborgs are coming! The cyborgs are coming! : Awful Library Books
05:48:23 <mnoqy> Submitter: "Includes chapters entitled "The Cyborg — and Why," "Cyborg Revolution," "Cyborgs in Space," and strangely, "Hypothermia." No lie, I had to do a paper on cyborg feminism last semester...
05:48:31 <kmc> days turn to nights turn to weeks turn to paper into rocks into plastic
05:48:41 <Bike> elliott: i know
05:49:29 <mnoqy> Sample Essay. Cyborgs are defined as part human part machine bodies in which human organs and mechanical and No hidden charges. the price you see is the final cost for all custom papers.
05:49:29 <Bike> elliott: i still don't understand how it exists though
05:50:57 <Bike> "For the purposes of this project, it was assumed that the Mars Convention, which appears as an appendix to this document, would be ratified and put into force by about 2020 and that a terraforming Authority would be established after the first human mission to Mars."
05:50:58 <mnoqy> (how can one be a feminist and/or queer cyborg? a labor-activist cyborg? a politically committed cyborg?). Of course, the major assignment for the semester is a 25-page seminar paper (or its...
05:51:11 <mnoqy> http://faculty.ucr.edu/~robertla/cyborg-syll.html o nice
05:52:01 <mnoqy> Cyborg Noodle. "Beeeeeeep Beep;" Date of Birth. Place them on wax paper so they peel off easy. 2 months ago.
05:52:23 <Bike> holy hell that background
05:53:26 <mnoqy> A paper about how we have created a cyborg representation of ourselves...
05:53:26 <mnoqy> Is your cyborg counterpart (Facebook) a… better you? A counter you? A true you? An evolved you? The purpose of this paper is to examine the cyborg element of Facebook...
05:53:44 <mnoqy> #babies #cyborg 009 #yes good.
05:54:25 <Bike> see often i kind of want to know more about cyborg theory and stuff
05:54:27 <Bike> but then this shit comes up
05:55:16 <mnoqy> Coolest Homemade Costumes - Web's Largest Costume Gallery
05:55:17 <mnoqy> Coolest Homemade Costumes » Toilets Turds and Toilet Paper.
05:55:31 <kmc> don't think i'd want to visit a place called Quarantine, Staten Island
05:55:59 <mnoqy> HowToBeADad.com - The entertainment website for parents... or anyone...
05:56:00 <kmc> satin island
05:56:03 <Bike> kmc: honestly pretty sure i'd go
05:56:37 <Bike> wait, was it like, for the old sense of quarantine? letting sailors hang out on the island for forty days before letting them in
05:56:49 <kmc> i don't know
05:56:52 <kmc> is that what they did
05:57:13 <Bike> that's the etymology of "quarantine".
05:57:29 <mnoqy> Jesus is Returning as a Cyborg, title page
05:57:29 <mnoqy> Jesus Is Returning as a Cyborg: On the Origin of Digital Species by Topher Dean Maraffi, 2009. Reviews: "It is a fantastic paper; well done. I like your style." ...
05:57:53 <Bike> "comparative planetology of an unprecedented nature"
05:58:27 <mnoqy> Neil Harbisson, cyborg activist, explains why we should all want to be cyborgs.
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06:00:54 <mnoqy> Cyborg Athletes, Transhuman Ideals & Posthumanity. Abstract. This paper argues that transhumanism lacks persuasiveness because its futurological underpinnings are met with skepticism...
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06:03:12 <Bike> cyborgs. running roughshod over everything
06:04:04 <Bike> mnoqy can one of these papers help stop them
06:04:33 <mnoqy> maybe you can purchase an essay and/or dissertation about how cyborgs are totally lame
06:04:51 <mnoqy> and they'll sulk maybe?
06:05:15 <mnoqy> Creation Of Cyborgs
06:05:15 <mnoqy> This free essay Creation Of Cyborgs. If you do not find your term paper, you can search our essay database for other topics on the search page essays.
06:05:45 <mnoqy> Amber Case: We are all cyborgs now | Video on TED.com
06:05:45 <mnoqy> And then they write a paper, and maybe a few other anthropologists read it, and we think it's very exotic. Well, what's happening is that we've suddenly found a new species. I, as a cyborg anthropologist...
06:06:21 <mnoqy> most of these seem either to be about how cyborgs are great, how they raise ethical/feminism issues, or how everyone's a cyborg already soooooooooooo
06:06:33 <mnoqy> or i guess buy free essays online
06:06:44 <mnoqy> or just incoherent
06:07:03 <mnoqy> like that HowToBeADad.com one, and Coolest Homemade Costumes
06:07:27 <mnoqy> i guess there was also that thesis about fanfiction, hm
06:07:51 <mnoqy> Waste - College Essays - Shrek2Cyborg
06:08:07 <kmc> apt-get install shrek2cyborg
06:08:29 <mnoqy> Alchemy Codes for the Iphone « urban horror
06:08:30 <mnoqy> And just as I get 226 (last 11 I cheated on although got t-1000 myself cos cyborg looked like terminator) and radiowave cement = clay + limestone ceramics = clay + human cigarette = paper + tobacco clay...
06:08:57 <mnoqy> The History Of Cyborg Body Politics - College Essays
06:08:57 <mnoqy> This essay The History Of Cyborg Body Politics is available for you on Essays24.com! Search Term Papers, College Essay Examples and Free Essays on Essays24.com - full papers database.
06:09:10 <mnoqy> Cyborg Coupons, Cyborg Coupon Codes, Cyborg Online Coupons
06:10:05 <mnoqy> help ive wasted over a ha lf hour on this
06:10:27 <elliott> you can stop at shrek2cyborg
06:10:32 <elliott> pretty sure nothing will top shrek2cyborg
06:12:56 <Bike> Though Mars is much smaller than Earth, its land surface area is about the same because it lacks oceans. Although, a sea about the size of the North Sea on Earth may have recently been discovered.
06:13:29 <kmc> this channel gets p. weird sometimes
06:14:36 <Bike> is kmc an ocean?
06:18:30 <Bike> the biggest crater on phobos is called "Stickney" who came up with that
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08:37:05 <impomatic> There's a village near here (Boston) called Stickney. It has a massive car boot sale...
08:40:31 <fizzie> Phobos looks silly. Proper moons are rounder than that.
08:40:54 <fizzie> Esp. that Stickney is a giant dent.
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09:53:13 <fizzie> “Shklovsky's "Hollow Phobos" hypothesis”
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11:49:05 <elliott> ais523: <mnoqy> elliott: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13786158/portraits/el-op.png [...] <elliott> and *I'm* still not an op. <elliott> despite my attractive & well-designed campaign self-portrait <oerjan> well ais523 hasn't commented on it yet
11:49:12 <elliott> 100% most important issue of the decade imo
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11:49:39 <ais523> now you can spend the next half-hour trying to persuade me to click a link
11:50:27 <elliott> surely oerjan wanting you to see it for #esoteric-op-related-reasons is a good enough reason??
11:50:36 <elliott> it would be irresponsible *not* to click it
11:51:02 <ais523> no, he wanted me to /comment/ on it
11:51:43 <elliott> it's even more irresponsible to make an official comment pertaining to something about which you know nothing
11:52:39 <quintopia> make an unofficial comment ais523 and everyone will be happy
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11:53:10 <ais523> quintopia: I don't think elliott will be
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11:53:26 <quintopia> well, everyone that matters anyway
11:54:05 <elliott> ais523: actually, I would be perfectly content with you officially abstaining from comment!
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11:55:22 <ais523> PonyPonyPony: what happened to "Friendship"?
11:55:42 <shachaf> 19:56 <shachaf> Answers, yes. There were answers to everything.
11:55:44 <shachaf> 20:11 <oerjan> shachaf: did you get the proof to the riemann hypethosis plz
11:55:54 <shachaf> oerjan: the answer is no, hth
11:56:03 <shachaf> oerjan: (to your question, that is)
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12:37:25 <Deewiant> http://fatiherikli.github.io/brainfuck-visualizer/
12:37:54 <fizzie> The rounded-rectangle cursor is very Web 3.11.
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15:22:02 <boily> hello?... ello?... llo?... lo?... o?... ?...
15:22:35 <boily> I was worried it was disguise-a-channel-into-a-necropolis day.
15:22:45 <shachaf> There is only silence and some second-hand clothes.
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15:25:45 <HackEgo> Benat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:35:40 * boily gives some silence and second-hand clothes to AnotherTest
15:35:56 <boily> it's disguise-a-channel-into-a-necropolis day.
15:39:47 * impomatic drops by to see if anyone's talking about Esoteric programming...
15:40:24 <AnotherTest> So I saw this brainfuck derivative today...
15:40:40 <boily> by the way, is that revolution 9 page still up?
15:40:41 <AnotherTest> and guess what? It was really similar to brainfuck.
15:41:31 <Fiora> if you take the integral of it, do you get the original bf?
15:42:43 <elliott> i think integrating BF gives you P''
15:42:54 <elliott> presumably after that you get P'
15:44:41 <Fiora> or maybe like, BF + C
15:50:13 <boily> ~eval pbkdf2 (Password . toOctets $ "SqueamishOssifrage") (Salt . toOctets $ "SodiumChloride")
15:50:17 <boily> ~eval pbkdf2 (Password . toOctets $ "SqueamishOssifrage") (Salt . toOctets $ "SodiumChloride")
15:50:18 <metasepia> HashedPass [153,223,66,43,11,145,124,27,21,143,224,136,15,148,19,93,41,143,166,153,21,156,110,56,133,78,212,67,244,70,109,40,186,158,145,197,139,35,109,117,38,43,77,154,159,169,67,234,38,249,19,255,114,142,197,243,177,67,91,161,223,115,48,218]
15:51:22 <AnotherTest> What happened to CaCl_2, I think that's cheaper
15:51:49 <boily> that's what's used in pickling.
15:52:31 <AnotherTest> it is? I though that was what they put on the roads?
15:53:03 <AnotherTest> But I guess it might be possible that they are both eatable
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15:54:29 <AnotherTest> "As an ingredient, it is listed as a permitted food additive in the European Union for use as a sequestrant and firming agent with the E number E509, and considered as generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.[8] The average intake of calcium chloride as food additives has been estimated to be 160–345 mg/day for individuals.[9]"
15:55:33 <boily> in bick's dill pickles: Cucumbers, water, white vinegar, salt, dehydrated garlic, calcium chloride, polysorbate 80, seasonings.
15:55:36 <boily> May contain mustard.
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16:03:31 <kmc> which hash is that
16:03:50 <kmc> and how many PBKDF2 iterations
16:03:52 <kmc> inquiring minds want to know
16:04:23 <kmc> if you make pickles with strange salts then you can't eat them, but you can electrocute them and they glow different colors
16:05:09 <kmc> it's not an octopus
16:06:42 <kmc> 'smaller cuttlefish will use their camouflage abilities to disguise themselves as a female cuttlefish... disguised males are able to swim past the larger guard male and mate with the female'
16:10:29 <Fiora> kmc: http://humon.deviantart.com/art/Sneaky-Cuttlefish-293754048
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16:21:39 <impomatic> Customer complaint: "If the price doesn't include shipping to America, why is your website written in American?" :-(
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16:27:52 <AnotherTest> template<class T, size_t Length, RandomPolicy = DefaultRandomPolicy>
16:28:57 <AnotherTest> I'd like a MarkovChain<std::string, 2, GammaDistribution>
16:29:17 <AnotherTest> I should add some more template parameters here and there
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16:33:14 <kmc> impomatic: :(
16:33:33 <kmc> AnotherTest: neat
16:33:53 <kmc> where does the distribution factor in?
16:34:13 <kmc> AnotherTest: if you want more template parameters then of course you need a way to specify a custom comparator and a custom allocator for T :3
16:34:15 <AnotherTest> well the intention was to make fun of policy based designs but I realized the idea is actually nice
16:34:48 <AnotherTest> class T, size_t Length, class RandomEngine = std::default_random_engine,
16:34:48 <AnotherTest> class RandomDistribution = std::uniform_int_distribution<size_t>
16:35:11 <AnotherTest> kmc: what about adding a parameter for the size type?
16:35:16 <kmc> clearly RandomDistribution should be a template template parameter
16:36:11 <AnotherTest> The problem is that the stdlib seems to not give the distribution as a template parameter to the engine?
16:37:30 <AnotherTest> I expected std::default_random_engine to be a template class but it wasn't
16:37:47 <boily> back from lunch. kmc: check the pbkdf2 package on hoogle.
16:38:16 <AnotherTest> meanwhile, I've made it a template template parameter
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17:10:20 <boily> “This bushy plant can grow bananas. Or are they banananas? Or bananananas? Some yellow curved thingies, at least.”
17:10:34 <Taneb> painted boomerangs
17:11:03 <Benat> sgnaremoob detniap
17:12:49 <boily> .PI emas eht morf ton era taneB dna benaT
17:13:08 <kmc> benat? ban it!
17:13:25 <FreeFull> http://dpaste.org/9fYxA/ Guess what this code does (assuming compiled with -threaded and ran with +RTS -N -RTS). Now guess what it does when you remove the threadDelays. No cheating by actually compiling it. BoundedChan is here: http://dpaste.org/x0Fh5/
17:13:39 <boily> a man, a plan, a canal, a taneb clone, Benat!
17:13:41 -!- Benat has quit.
17:13:42 <FreeFull> It's really a test on how well you know the scheduler
17:13:49 <Taneb> I win this round, Benat!
17:16:47 <Taneb> Probably ThatOtherPerson then
17:18:34 <boily> .ti no ydaerla m'I
17:22:48 <boily> it'll woggle a 'x', but how, I don't know. probably some amusing random pattern.
17:30:37 <Taneb> Also, I don't think Benat was a bot
17:30:42 <Taneb> it made a couple of mistakes
17:31:06 <Taneb> It said "hi" instead of "iH" at 15:23
17:31:18 <Taneb> And if you assume that it swaps \ and /
17:31:41 <Taneb> it said "\quit" instead of "\qiut" at 1713
17:32:24 <FreeFull> Since nobody responded to my puzzle, what happens is that with the delay, the threads tend to alternate, sometimes one of the threads executing twice
17:32:55 <FreeFull> Without the delays, the thread that executes is always the thread that executed last time, except when it hits the limit, where it switches to the other thread
17:33:54 <FreeFull> Without delays, one of the threads would completely starve the other
17:34:26 <FreeFull> Actually, what I'm going to do is modify the program to check if that happens
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17:49:14 <PonyPonyPony> Oh boy! The owner of extrawww.com wants to sell it to me for some unspecified 4-figure value.
17:50:58 <boily> PonyPonyPony: are you Gregor?
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18:37:45 <Taneb> I quite enjoy the most recent Freefall comic
18:37:58 <Taneb> I hope Florence does get a nicer room at the pound
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18:45:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Florence has been taken into protective custody
18:45:54 <doesthiswork> I don't think that the pound is quite as much protective custody as she wanted
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18:46:20 <Taneb> she... has always been a dog?
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18:46:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2400/fc02333.png
19:02:57 <Taneb> doesthiswork, they only do that the first time they see her
19:03:13 <Taneb> And less than half of the power-suit cops are robots
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19:06:50 <FreeFull> A guy tried to lobotomise all the robots in the world
19:06:50 <Bike> no it's all a dream
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19:19:40 <doesthiswork> maybe soon the company will find out that florence ended up in the wrong place?
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19:58:05 <metasepia> CYUL 161900Z 21014KT 12SM -SHRA BKN022 OVC035 12/11 A2987 RMK SC5SC3 SLP114
19:58:25 <boily> meh. still -SHRAing.
20:00:54 <oerjan> <fizzie> Phobos looks silly. Proper moons are rounder than that. <-- i'm afraid it just doesn't understand the gravity of the matter
20:04:14 <oerjan> <elliott> ais523: actually, I would be perfectly content with you officially abstaining from comment! <-- you mean because fizzie also refuses to opine, so i can just op you single-handedly?
20:04:31 <Phantom_Hoover> secret secret: it's actually a normal potato that's quite close to the telescopes
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20:06:50 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom_Hoover: wow, really? How does it get in front of all of the telescopes whenever they're pointed in a certain direction? Is there a secret Brotherhood of the Potato that takes care of it?
20:07:04 <boily> secret secret secret: just imagine the poutine you could make with phobotatoe and moon cheese.
20:07:29 <boily> (now, where'd you get the gravy from...)
20:07:36 <oerjan> boily: so you are saying god is quebecois?
20:08:58 <fizzie> I think I opined something (though it might've been quite a non-opinion) last time the recurring topic was breached.
20:09:12 <oerjan> i've forgotten what you opined
20:09:30 <fizzie> I've forgotten it too, and anyway it was some years ago.
20:11:10 <boily> oerjan: I wouldn't be surprised at god's québécoisitude.
20:11:17 <elliott> i've been complaining about gregor's voice for years?
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20:11:39 <oerjan> elliott: we've _already_ solved that problem, duh
20:12:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v PonyPonyPony.
20:12:17 <elliott> seems to be unreliable to me.
20:12:21 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v PonyPonyPony.
20:12:46 <oerjan> at least until someone gets fed up enough to unsolve it again.
20:13:39 <elliott> hmm, are you saying the channel needs fewer food supplies? i suppose rationing in time of a voice crisis *does* make sense...
20:14:14 <oerjan> your dictionary may not be quite up to date on the meaning of "fed up" hth
20:14:40 <Fiora> just don't take my sushi :<
20:18:08 <elliott> i sleep now. i can only pray gregor's voice survives the brutal night.
20:18:29 <elliott> have faith, Phantom_Hoover
20:19:31 <boily> extra sushi is LUXURY, I say! in my youth, all we had was silence and second-hand clothes!
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20:31:56 <boily> something that bugs me: in roguelikes, do you strip naked when you change armour?
20:32:25 <Fiora> I don't think you'd wear armor without a layer underneath... unless you really love chafing
20:32:57 <Bike> http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb/researchers-finally-replicated-reinhart-rogoff-and-there-are-serious-problems so, anyway, economics is being weird
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20:34:00 <ais523> boily: NetHack has no slot for trousers, and yet no indication that things are touching your bare skin when you sit on them
20:34:09 <ais523> as such, most people assume that the character has trousers yet the game simply doesn't mention them
20:34:59 <boily> yes, but NetHack has hawaiian shirts.
20:35:47 <Bike> you wear your hawaiian shirt over your underlayer, duh
20:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought the standard procedure for nurses was to take off all your armour or sth
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20:50:01 * ThatOtherPerson sighs and passes out a multitude of pants, hoping the adventurers will get a clue
20:50:03 * quintopia puts on his adventuring shorts and hat
20:51:05 * Fiora puts on adventuring skirt and hairband?
20:51:57 <Koen_> so you're the kind of adventurer who performs aerial kung fu kicks with a skirt
20:52:09 <Bike> she swords that shit
20:52:11 <Fiora> that's what magical girls do, right?
20:52:15 <Bike> fucking brutal to see lemme tell ya
20:52:28 <Fiora> I don't stop time though :<
20:52:31 <Bike> that's the one
20:52:36 <Bike> the blue meduka.
20:53:38 <Fiora> and I'm a magic-user adventurer! I shoot magic beams with staves and stuff
20:56:20 <Fiora> (STR was my dump stat, so I can't do the kicks very well)
21:01:18 <Fiora> bike is embellishing~
21:01:59 <Fiora> by inventing one where none was before!
21:03:17 <ais523> Fiora: if you're a magical girl, you don't bother changing clothes manually
21:03:26 <ais523> you just randomly decide to have a different wardrobe, and you do
21:03:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, but I'm aware of the genre
21:04:00 <ais523> although I don't disapprove of it at all
21:04:22 <ais523> they really have quite a positive message
21:04:28 <ais523> if a rather clichéd one
21:04:54 <Fiora> is there something wrong with magical girl anime :<
21:05:11 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:05:29 <ais523> Fiora: Phantom_Hoover just doesn't expect me to like it
21:05:42 -!- Bike has joined.
21:05:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: have /you/ met me?
21:06:15 <ais523> I guess I don't know enough about magical girl anime to really say I like it
21:06:16 <oerjan> (from Bike's link) "If this error turns out to be an actual mistake Reinhart-Rogoff made, well, all I can hope is that future historians note that one of the core empirical points providing the intellectual foundation for the global move to austerity in the early 2010s was based on someone accidentally not updating a row formula in Excel."
21:06:16 <Koen_> "I called your cell phone to set up a meeting but you didn't pick up"
21:06:29 <Bike> oerjan: good line
21:06:55 <ThatOtherPerson> I don't know anything about magical girl anime, but I would like to be magical. That would be nice.
21:07:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I know I'll defend Final Fantasy X-2 from its detractors
21:07:44 <ais523> despite it apparently being magical girl anime
21:08:10 <ais523> (actually, I think it's a great game because it points out the flaws in both typical RPG plots and typical anime plots, while still remaining a positive outlook on things)
21:08:48 <Fiora> yeah, I remember that being disliked by a lot of ~gamers~ because it was too shoujo for them
21:08:51 <fizzie> X-2, was that the one with the dressspheres?
21:09:29 <Fiora> (the awful laughing, I mean)
21:09:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: apparently the laughing was intentionally bad
21:09:54 <Fiora> Yeah, I think that was intentional in the original japanese
21:10:14 <ThatOtherPerson> are you talking about that laughing I am currently hearing?
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21:10:24 <Bike_> the laughing is intentionally fake yeah
21:10:36 <Bike_> because tidus is making a point about acting happy when you're not for some reason?
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21:10:44 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
21:11:08 <ais523> who cares it's Final Fantasy X, which I'm not particularly willing to defend
21:11:16 <ais523> (part of the reason I like X-2 is how effectively it makes fun of X)
21:11:21 <Bike> fizzie: basically.
21:11:29 <Bike> the only good part of ffx was Sin. true fact
21:11:53 <fizzie> Bike: Did you know that SIN is JECHT ha ha ha ha spoil'd ya.
21:12:11 <Fiora> Tidus is actually a dream of the Fayth
21:12:20 <Fiora> the main character doesn't exist
21:12:23 <Bike> yunalesca is secretly the boss with the best theme
21:12:23 <fizzie> Fiora: Snape kills Dumbledore.
21:12:39 <Fiora> Tyler Durden isn't real :<
21:13:18 <ais523> at this point the spoilers are getting so obscure that they might actually spoil people, except the people don't know what they're being spoiled on
21:13:43 <ais523> …jumping to an instruction can be used to re-encrypt the previous instruction
21:14:14 <Fiora> the Star Ocean universe is actually a simulation, and the players are NPCs?
21:14:16 <Koen_> aren't you afraid those people might one day watch the thing and realize it's that thing they had been spoiled on?
21:14:35 <fizzie> It's behind the seventh door on the left.
21:14:42 <Bike> i am number one
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21:15:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Take the second star to the right, and straight on till morning.
21:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> hahaha i just realised benedict cumberbatch was in four lions
21:16:27 <Fiora> ais523: now I'm wishing there were more shoujoish magicalgirlish games
21:16:57 <ais523> there are more such games, but they're pretty much universally considered terrible even by people who like those sorts of anime
21:17:03 <ais523> also they have a tendency to turn into porn
21:17:10 <Fiora> I'm not counting the awful otakubait things <.<
21:17:29 <Fiora> ar tonelico and hyperdimension neptunia and that kind of bleh are not shoujo
21:17:40 <ais523> ok, just for the sake of us all, make sure to include it more clearly in your wish :)
21:18:00 <Fiora> okay, I wish for more mahou shoujo-esque games aimed primarily at a female audience (bam)
21:18:43 <oerjan> <Fiora> if you take the integral of it, do you get the original bf? <-- darn now i'm wondering what _that_ kind of brainfuck derivative would look like. although i think continuous bf has been discussed before.
21:19:18 <Fiora> I guess atelier is sort of close. though it doesn't have as much of the 'mahou'
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21:20:28 <oerjan> <ais523> at this point the spoilers are getting so obscure that they might actually spoil people, except the people don't know what they're being spoiled on <-- yes. wtf is kyuubey.
21:21:10 <ThatOtherPerson> oh yay I know a british actor, does that mean he's one of them?
21:21:12 <fizzie> Fiora: This is not related at all, but got kind of reminded; http://sprunge.us/cUYG
21:21:22 <oerjan> <ais523> …jumping to an instruction can be used to re-encrypt the previous instruction <-- malbolge?
21:21:35 <quintopia> did you count everyone in harry potter?
21:21:43 <quintopia> because that had a few actors in it
21:21:59 <Fiora> fizzie: geez, wow, I thought that cliche had been beaten to death at least among the highest profile jrpgs
21:22:09 <Bike> fizzie: more layers. yes.
21:22:10 <Fiora> since I almost never see it anymore in final fantasy or tales or the like
21:22:23 <ais523> actually, probably a bigger spoiler would be "characters over 128 aren't rejected"
21:22:23 <Fiora> I guess DQ8 isn't really that new, but...
21:22:34 * Fiora played DQ9 a while ago, it was really wonderful
21:24:03 <fizzie> I watched someone play through all of Ni no Kuni (the PS3 thing), and it looked just like a Ghibli movie except in game.
21:24:22 <ais523> quintopia: ireland is both an island, and a country; the country (republic of ireland) has no overlap with the UK
21:24:25 <fizzie> I don't have a PS3 so I just have to watch other people.
21:24:31 <ais523> whereas the island itself has some overlap (northern ireland)
21:24:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (this is a good thing to learn before one goes to ireland)
21:24:33 <oerjan> <ais523> actually, probably a bigger spoiler would be "characters over 128 aren't rejected" <-- isn't that cheating, though.
21:24:39 <Fiora> I loved Ni no Kuni too, it was really nice
21:24:49 <ais523> ireland and great britain, being two different islands, are entirely disjoint
21:24:49 <Fiora> it definitely had so much of that ghibli feel
21:25:10 <Fiora> I was surprised for a bit that the game was really dragon quest-esque in the mechanics and structure, but then I remembered that it was made by Level 5 XD
21:25:11 <quintopia> why didnt the british do a better job of conquering and keeping conquered their next door neighbors?
21:25:16 <oerjan> ais523: also, i vaguely thought the important part of the jumping was that the jumping instruction itself _doesn't_ get encrypted.
21:25:27 * Fiora would recommend Tales of Graces f as the best PS3 JRPG, though
21:25:30 <Bike> quintopia: too busy fucking over south asia
21:25:34 <fizzie> Fiora: I had that one short (few seconds?) segment of the overworld music stuck in my head for so long.
21:25:51 <fizzie> Also because it was just like some other thing.
21:26:05 <Phantom_Hoover> (amusingly, the irish weren't all that hot on independence before the easter rising)
21:26:23 <Fiora> also drippy was the best ever
21:26:40 <fizzie> Can't much argue with that.
21:27:09 <Fiora> making him scottish was the best thing
21:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> (the british overreaction played a large part in moving them to actual rebellion)
21:27:22 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: conscription, huh. that caused a shitload of uprisings in non-core russia too, what a coincidence!
21:28:22 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora: I must say, I've never seen ":<" before. It's rather angular.
21:28:39 <Bike> fiora's mouth is reinforced with rebar.
21:29:11 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qhy9CO3Y-8#t=3m45s
21:29:39 <Fiora> oh, correction. welsh.
21:29:40 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:29:45 <oerjan> it also looks like a fly hth
21:29:50 <kmc> (\/) (;,,;) (\/)
21:29:59 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa SPIDER
21:30:17 <Fiora> I CORRECTED MYSELLLFFF
21:30:23 <Bike> lord high of the fairies
21:30:36 <fizzie> Bike: One lord more, right?
21:31:37 <fizzie> We were thinking of maybe a Scotland, maybe summer of 2014.
21:31:48 <Fiora> it was definitely a wonderful choice though. the usual way they localize osakan accents is as texan -_-
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21:32:07 <fizzie> Fiora: A... Texan Drippy...
21:32:29 <boily> Fiora: a very logical choice, considering the longstanding texan tradition of takoyaki.
21:32:52 <Fiora> The tradition actually started because the localization company was based in texas
21:32:58 <Fiora> so texas accents were the easiest to find <.<
21:34:38 <Fiora> (another game with a great british dub is xenoblade, they did away with the silly "europe and US get different dubs" and just gave everyone wonderful english accents)
21:35:00 <fizzie> Nobody dubs anything to Finnish (well, except maybe aimed-really-for-children big-budget animation films), so the whole sub-or-dub thing confuzzles me, what with the whole practice of dubbing just feeling so weird.
21:36:04 <Bike> she just said they're wonderful, man.
21:36:11 <Fiora> good dubs can be really wonderful though, and I think they help me connect with the characters better
21:36:13 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> if you make pickles with strange salts then you can't eat them, but you can electrocute them and they glow different colors
21:36:17 <HackEgo> 1033) <kmc> if you make pickles with strange salts then you can't eat them, but you can electrocute them and they glow different colors
21:36:21 <Fiora> in some cases they're better than the original, too
21:37:01 <fizzie> Perhaps, but it still feels weird, because It's Not Done, here.
21:37:27 <fizzie> I guess maybe there was a Finnish dub of Spirited Away?
21:37:41 <Fiora> the times I'm really glad they have them are when the original dubs are plagued by like, the most cliche moe voices ever
21:37:55 <Fiora> and the english dubbers smartly decide not to try to imitate them and just do like, proper voices
21:38:17 <Bike> you know how moe voices are like two octaves above the male ones
21:38:24 <Bike> what if you just reversed that, made them two lower
21:38:33 <Fiora> (the most terrible ones though are when the english dubbers decide to try to mimick the moe voices. oh /god/)
21:38:43 <boily> reverse moe voices...
21:38:48 * boily cringe in abject fear
21:39:13 <oerjan> boily: WHAT ARE YOU FRIGHTENED OF MORTAL
21:39:34 <oerjan> (YOUR TIME IS NOT YET UP)
21:39:48 * Fiora goes and fangirls about cassandra lee because she's wonderfuls
21:42:25 <boily> oerjan: I'm afraid of people who have imaginary letters in their name and who talk in capitals.
21:42:36 <Fiora> imaginary letters?
21:46:30 <oerjan> boily: WHAT CAN I SAY I'M A COMPLEX PERSON
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21:49:45 <PonyPonyPony> <Fiora> (another game with a great british dub is xenoblade, they did away with the silly "europe and US get different dubs" and just gave everyone wonderful english accents) // I'd buy it. Americans love English accents ;)
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21:51:02 * Fiora admits she does? <.<
21:51:43 <Bike> all about the cockney
21:51:50 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> that was happening when i stopped reading it <-- well then it was being planned. just recently the plan was actually executed.
21:52:16 <PonyPonyPony> Bike: I'll just cut that message off after the 18th character.
21:52:24 <Bike> that's the joke. thanks
21:52:46 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: doing what was necessary to make it _not_ work is how florence got in the pound.
21:53:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oh: not found
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22:31:27 <PonyPonyPony> pikhq_: "Splenda is chlorinated sugar, that's not safe!" "I certainly hope you've replaced all your table salt with MSG then."
22:32:35 <pikhq_> I'm not entirely sure why anyone would be opposed to Splenda. It's, like, the least offensive artificial sweetener. By far.
22:32:35 * kmc does have a 2 lb shaker of MSG
22:33:05 <PonyPonyPony> kmc: 2lbs is a LOT of MSG. I don't know how one could buy that much in a single package here X-D
22:33:22 <Bike> splenda is aspartame, right?
22:33:25 <pikhq_> The thing that's great with MSG is, it's a salt of sodium and glutamic acid. Glutamic acid being an *amino acid* that is all over the place in your body.
22:33:36 <PonyPonyPony> pikhq_: My brother and grandmother have decided that they don't like Splenda because (a) its motto (Tastes like sugar because it's made from sugar) is misleading if you're an imbecile, and (b) oh nose chlorine.
22:33:42 <Bike> oh. aspartame's the controversial one
22:34:11 <PonyPonyPony> I particularly love hating on Splenda's motto, because, for an advertising slogan, it's amazingly true.
22:34:24 <Fiora> the annoying bit about the 'strong' artificial sweeneters is they can't really replace sugar in cooking
22:35:01 <Bike> I assume that when people look at artificial sweeteners they see http://24.media.tumblr.com/44d32d4df57c74f2e76ec2b0fe5c454a/tumblr_mld4dnStXb1r7tprao1_500.jpg
22:35:04 <pikhq_> It depends pretty heavily on what you're making though.
22:35:22 <Fiora> erythritol and xylitol are apparently good in place of sugar
22:35:26 <Fiora> (for baking and stuff)
22:35:34 <kmc> i hope my mushrooms don't taste like drywall and copies of the wall street journal
22:36:24 <Bike> yeah i have no idea what the marketers were thinking, at all.
22:37:51 <Bike> i didn't even know milk came in boxes, too. (liquid milk, even)
22:38:39 <kmc> in europe eggs aren't refrigerated, in US they always are
22:39:06 <pikhq_> Bike: You mean like UHT boxed milk, or milk cartons?
22:39:19 <Bike> yeah it's that membrane thing
22:39:19 <Bike> it's more that i didn't know these sorts of products even came at these levels of quality, i guess
22:39:39 <pikhq_> Hmm. Where are you at, Bike?
22:40:11 <Bike> northwest murika
22:40:24 <Bike> oh that's right, milk comes in bags in canada doesn't it
22:41:05 <PonyPonyPony> <kmc> in europe eggs aren't refrigerated, in US they always are // hm, really?
22:41:10 <Bike> Hm, the UHT boxes do look famiiliar.
22:41:23 <kmc> PonyPonyPony: well i don't know about all of europe
22:41:26 <kmc> many parts
22:41:35 <kmc> and i've always seen them refrigerated in the US
22:42:11 <PonyPonyPony> I mean, to me it seems like you really ought to refrigerate. They're just like meat, only not born yet. (Or fertilized)
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22:42:35 <Bike_> fine, my chicken related knowledge will just die
22:42:41 <nooodl> "...we can view every monoid (A, *, e) as a category, as follows: ... Objects: the set A is the unique object of the category. Arrows: x : A -> A means that x \in A, i.e. arrows are elements of A."
22:42:41 <pikhq_> PonyPonyPony: Remember that it's more common to buy at most a few days ahead in Europe.
22:43:21 <nooodl> how are elements of A arrows... i'm... what
22:43:30 <FireFly> I've always seen eggs refridgerated
22:43:57 <Bike_> nooodl: as in the arrows of the category are the objects of the original monoid set, i think
22:44:30 <nooodl> if you had the monoid (N, +, 0), one of the arrows would be 42 : N -> N?
22:44:56 <Bike_> yeah, except N in the category formulation is just the one object
22:45:04 <FireFly> I think that the name of the single node in the category doesn't really matter
22:45:07 <Bike_> so you'd have one object with infinite arrows to and from itself
22:45:15 <nooodl> wait i think i'm looking at this too much like it's a function
22:45:36 <Bike_> also we got 1300 lbs of eggs today
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22:45:43 <Bike_> it's not possible to move in the refrigerator no more
22:45:44 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:45:49 <kmc> Bike: woah
22:46:18 <Bike> that's only like a vanful, but yeah sucked to move
22:46:26 <nooodl> so arrows are just... things. the source and target don't matter, the composition (i.e. *) matters
22:46:43 <FireFly> Well, the source and target is the same for all the arrows
22:47:02 <FireFly> (I should probably add that I learned about this like yesterday, but I think what I'm saying is true)
22:47:08 <Bike> so the composition of the arrows corresponding to 42 and 32 is the arrow corresponding to 74, probably
22:47:13 <Bike> i should probably add that i'm making shit up to confuse you
22:47:53 <FireFly> Bike: that'll get you a lot of meringue
22:48:03 <nooodl> wow... this all just kinda clicked. i really love that feeling
22:48:19 <kmc> i like to start with the definition of a monoid and then say that a category is a 'typed monoid' where the elements have function-like types and you can only compose when the types line up
22:49:08 <nooodl> where elements = arrows, and objects = types?
22:49:35 <kmc> the CT terminology is confusing in a programming context because 'object' doesn't sound like it should be a type
22:49:50 <kmc> in CT the objects just classify the arrows / morphisms
22:50:05 <nooodl> yeah, that definition is probably clearer from a programmer's pov
22:54:20 <nooodl> aaaa CT is too much fun to read & be confused about
23:00:48 <oerjan> <Bike_> it's not possible to move in the refrigerator no more <-- i'll recommend not staying there at all, hth
23:01:56 <Bike> as someone who's been n the walk-in freezer for half an hour at a time i must agree
23:03:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: then you die fictional evidence notwithstanding, hth
23:04:03 <Bike> i think it's roughly as cold as like, lapland? iunno
23:04:25 <oerjan> hint: lapland has seasons too
23:04:57 <Bike> look it's cold okay
23:05:05 <oerjan> they just go from "damn cold" to "fairly chilly"
23:06:12 <Bike> can you just leave meat outside to preserve it
23:06:35 <Bike> i mean, mod animals
23:07:12 <oerjan> Bike: in the winter, sure
23:07:15 <nooodl> guys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakutsk#Climate
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23:07:40 <Bike> i guess freezers are supposed to be around -20°C
23:07:49 <nooodl> record low: -64 °C, record high: 39 °C
23:08:00 <Bike> haha holy shit
23:08:15 <Bike> "As the biggest city built on continuous permafrost," the russian east is fucking crazy
23:09:44 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Northern_Chukotka.JPG chukuotka is probably my favorite though
23:09:47 <Bike> "sure, let's live here"
23:10:47 <nooodl> that looks like a different planet
23:11:13 <Bike> «Abramovich said that he would not run for governor again after his term of office expired in 2005, as it is "too expensive", and he rarely visits the region. However, Russian President Vladimir Putin changed the law to abolish elections for regional governors, and on 21 October 2005 Abramovich was reappointed governor for another term.» it's a nice place
23:11:26 <Bike> (abramovich is the governor of chukotka)
23:11:32 <nooodl> Chukotka has large reserves of oil, natural gas, coal, gold, and tungsten, which are slowly being exploited, but much of the rural population survives on subsistence reindeer herding, whale hunting, and fishing.
23:11:35 <Bike> (or was until 2008)
23:12:17 <Bike> "Chukotka is mostly roadless and air travel is the main mode of passenger transport. There are local permanent roads between some settlements."
23:12:32 <kmc> the Soviet Union's answer to Zionism was to give the Jews their own autonomous oblast in middle of nowhere east Russia
23:12:55 <Bike> well hey, at least stalin didn't dump them in this northern crazyland
23:12:56 <kmc> it didn't really catch on
23:13:02 <Bike> also it beats pale of settlement :(
23:13:40 <Bike> possibly russia is just bad with jews?? perish the thought
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23:14:19 <Phantom_Hoover> http://fwc.wireos.com/e.php?id=5117ac574ed91ab030000083
23:14:53 <Phantom_Hoover> note especially: the 161y, which has, for some reason, got its landing gear on the top
23:15:31 <Bike> i like the 161c, chillin in space
23:17:04 <nooodl> i'm imagining that was just, "oops. we put the wheels on the wrong side. oh well"
23:17:40 <oerjan> Bike: the russians think the jews should just get with the pogrom
23:18:26 <kmc> oerjan: c.c
23:20:05 <Fiora> that was wonderterrible
23:21:14 <kmc> one thing I didn't know about Israel until I visited was the degree to which Russian coexists with Hebrew and English and Arabic as a language you see everywhere
23:21:28 <Bike> hm, why is that?
23:21:32 <kmc> cause there were a lot of jews in Russia and they mostly wanted to get the hell out as soon as possible
23:21:55 <Bike> now i'm remembering the black hundreds aggh
23:21:57 <kmc> and it's a fairly recent wave of immigration (since it was hard to leave before 1990 or so)
23:23:22 <Bike> wow what the heck is "national bolshevism"
23:23:27 <Bike> the history of israel is so fucked
23:23:32 <kmc> 713,399 jews in russia in 1979, 159,348 in 2010
23:24:00 <kmc> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party
23:24:08 <kmc> THIS IS MCBANE. AM UNDER ATTACK BY COMMIE-NAZIS.
23:24:19 <Bike> "In Russia, as the civil war dragged on, a number of prominent "Whites" switched to the Bolshevik side because they saw it as the only hope for restoring greatness to Russia. Amongst these was Professor Nikolai Ustrialov, initially an anti-communist, who came to believe that Bolshevism could be modified to serve nationalistic purposes." i can't believe how dumb the russian civil war was
23:24:59 <kmc> someone ought to edit http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommieNazis which claims there is no such thing
23:25:10 <Bike> «They supported co-operation with the Soviet government in the hope that the Soviet state would evolve back into a "bourgeois state". »
23:25:16 <kmc> Bike: well he was kind of right, yeah?
23:25:29 <kmc> stalin was a nationalist
23:25:40 <Bike> i really don't get stalin's nationalism at all
23:26:03 <kmc> it is a bit puzzling given that he was from fucking georgia
23:26:40 <kmc> aiui he changed his mind on like a weekly basis regarding whether all the ethnic groups in the USSR should become Russian or whether they should all have their own -stans
23:26:49 <Bike> he wsa the fucking commissar of nationalities
23:27:55 <Bike> oh did you see that thing i found from cablegate, about a bunch of chinese academics arguing about the "american model" vs "soviet model" of dealing with minority ethnic groups
23:28:02 <Bike> it's pretty surreal let me tell you
23:28:35 <Bike> http://www.wikileaks.org/cable/2009/12/09BEIJING3314.html
23:29:03 <Bike> america has had a successful melting pot, see
23:32:19 <Bike> ...oh my, alexey tolstoy was one of these people following ustrialov.
23:34:42 <kmc> yeah, China is like 92% Han Chinese, that might screw up the melting pot a bit
23:35:26 <kmc> i don't think the US was ever that lopsided, unless like you count 'white people' as a single group and don't count slaves
23:36:15 <Bike> well also it's not even close to as uniform in china
23:36:30 <Bike> xinjiang was just like some place full of muslims until the KMT took it over
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23:41:04 <oerjan> <kmc> yeah, China is like 92% Han Chinese, that might screw up the melting pot a bit <-- i am pretty sure i recently read a claim the classification is biased to include a _lot_ under han chinese
23:41:49 <oerjan> reddit's r/askhistory, probably
23:41:52 <Bike> ooh, chinese census probably isn't by self-report
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23:43:06 <Bike> when the US switched from assignment to self-report for ethnicity minority populations mysteriously jumped a few percentage points
23:44:38 <Bike> http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/12/29/from-appearance-to-identity-how-census-data-collection-changed-race-in-america/
23:44:41 <Bike> "Between 1980 and 2000, the U.S. Native American population magically grew 110%."
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23:47:17 <Bike> hoo, wikipedia lists over a dozen ethnicities not recognized by the prc
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00:07:04 <ion> MSG is one of my favorite seasonings.
00:10:04 <PonyPonyPony> There are too many variables in making curry for me to make any real comments on whether it improved things *shrugs*
00:15:17 <doesthiswork> I think it would be nice to be able take a function you'd made and make a variation of it where "floor" was replaced by "ceiling" without having to modify the text of the first functions
00:16:06 <Bike> have you considered search/replace
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00:18:15 <doesthiswork> making the replacements is no problem, it just so happens that many times i find myself trying out small variations on previous functions, and it'd be nice to just specify the changes without making the original function more complicated.
00:18:39 <Jafet> where floor = ceiling
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00:21:17 <Koen_> doesthiswork: well you could put the functions you use as arguments
00:21:49 <doesthiswork> koen_: yes, that is the responsible thing to do
00:22:06 <oerjan> 1 = 0 isn't effective haskell
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00:22:44 <Bike> psh responsible
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00:23:45 <doesthiswork> There is something attractive about starting with a concrete example and then ad-hocly parameterizing it
00:24:21 <oerjan> elliott: the spammers seem to be about to fill the recent changes with registrations only :P
00:25:29 <lambdabot> (Integral b, RealFrac a) => a -> b
00:25:39 <lambdabot> class (Real a, Fractional a) => RealFrac a where
00:25:39 <lambdabot> properFraction :: (Integral b) => a -> (b,a)
00:25:39 <lambdabot> truncate, round, ceiling, floor :: (Integral b) => a -> b
00:26:21 <oerjan> doesthiswork: just make a newtype swapping ceiling and floor methods hth
00:26:35 <oerjan> (this doesn't really help)
00:27:10 <Jafet> Is making wiki accounts turing complete
00:30:25 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:38:13 <kmc> doesthiswork: that sounds like sort of a fit for implicit arguments
00:38:27 <kmc> GHC for example supports those
00:38:54 <kmc> :t let f x y = ?toInt ((x + y) / 2) in nf
00:38:55 <lambdabot> `f' (line 1), `f' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
00:38:56 <kmc> :t let f x y = ?toInt ((x + y) / 2) in f
00:38:57 <lambdabot> (?toInt::a -> t, Fractional a) => a -> a -> t
00:39:23 <kmc> you would call this like «let ?toInt = ceiling in f 4 7»
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00:39:37 <kmc> and you can have an outer 'default' value and shadow it locally
00:40:55 <Bike> is it just any identifier with an initial question mark
00:41:21 <doesthiswork> that syntax is light enough that I wouldn't mind it
00:41:28 <Bike> :t ?hapax_legomenon
00:42:33 <kmc> type class constraints themselves are sort of like implicit parameters
00:43:06 <Bike> so you can locally override these things? is it like, dynamically scoped
00:43:07 <kmc> the key difference is that you can only have one instance for a given type and class, globally, while these implicit parameters can be shadowed locally
00:43:18 <kmc> yeah, it's essentially an implementation of dynamic scope in Haskell
00:43:59 <shachaf> I,I instance (?foo :: Int) => ... where
00:44:39 <kmc> locally overriding a type class instance would be super useful as well
00:44:47 <kmc> but presents some difficulties with the way type classes are used today
00:45:00 <shachaf> I wish I knew a good way to make that work. :-(
00:45:13 <kmc> the code for «union :: (Ord k) => Map k v -> Map k v -> Map k v» is allowed to assume that the two maps were constructed wrt the same ordering
00:45:56 <shachaf> There is always "reflection", though.
00:46:19 <kmc> there's a paper somewhere on unifying type classes and implicit params, but afaik they just have a keyword to say if local shadowing is allowed or not
00:46:25 <kmc> so you still have to make this tradeoff
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00:56:06 <Bike> "GOMADWarrior: we're not #transhumanism" /ignore is great
00:57:47 <kmc> who are they trolling now
00:58:01 <shachaf> And also whatever channel Bike is in.
00:58:05 <Bike> oh are they there too
00:58:08 <Bike> 00:53:05 <GOMADWarrior> what if it was possible to upload knowledge directly to the brain
00:58:19 <Bike> imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try
00:58:30 <kmc> imagine there's no GOMADWarrior, it's easy if you /ignore
00:59:26 <Bike> fine, be reasonable
00:59:27 <oerjan> that GOMADWarrior guy is quite clever, managing to troll us by proxy even when he's banned.
00:59:44 <Fiora> bike how terrible a job am I doing at talking lisp things
00:59:57 <Bike> you're doing pretty fine
01:00:07 <Bike> especially since "lisp things" means "x86 instruction coding"
01:00:27 <oerjan> Fiora: (you (need) ((more (parentheses ()))))
01:01:19 <Bike> the worst programming jokes
01:01:36 <Fiora> I feel like I'm not really good enough for this stuff though -_-
01:02:48 <shachaf> but you always seem to feel that way
01:02:59 <shachaf> clearly you can't trust your sense of being good enough
01:03:01 <Bike> i think the main problem you could have would be unfamiliarity with the codebase
01:03:11 <Bike> like you probably don't have any idea what stassats meant by "inheritance" there
01:03:14 <Fiora> could that be because it's always true
01:03:15 <Bike> also what shachaf said.
01:03:34 <shachaf> you just have a badly-calibrated sensor
01:03:45 * Sgeo 's girlfriend was inducted into an honor society
01:03:54 <Sgeo> I just looked through my old mail, and I was invited last year
01:04:28 <Sgeo> Sigma Beta Delta, is that good?
01:05:29 <Bike> I don't actually know how to judge honor socieites.
01:05:46 <shachaf> Bike: The main thing is whether you know the Greek letters here, I think.
01:06:01 <shachaf> As in, would recognize them, be able to write them.
01:06:15 <oerjan> wait, are those greek letter designations globally unique at all?
01:07:04 <oerjan> (sigma beta delta doesn't have a wikipedia page, fwiw)
01:07:17 <Bike> oerjan: I think they usually are. I mean there's like 27³ of them or w/e.
01:08:24 <oerjan> Honor society has the one line "Sigma Beta Delta, ΣΒΔ (business programs at schools that have regional accreditation, but not specialized accreditation in business)"
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01:15:31 <Bike> doesthiswork: the wikipedia article on cognitive linguistics is weird.
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01:20:53 <doesthiswork> I joined #esoteric because I liked weird things, could you point out the especially weird pats of the article so I can appreciate them?
01:23:26 <Bike> it's a "cognitive" theory that's pretty anti-cognitivist from what i can tell
01:23:36 <Bike> and the Controversy section is just vague
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03:05:37 <HackEgo> 507) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:05:48 <HackEgo> 143) <oerjan> it's not obvious from quantum mechanics that you can destroy a universe arbitrarily.
03:05:55 <HackEgo> 788) <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday.
03:06:08 <matteu> Bashir? As in DS9 Bashir?
03:06:25 <oerjan> kmc: IT TAKES ADDITIONAL GENIUS
03:06:37 <Bike> isn't Bashir like the most common Arabic name
03:06:44 <Bike> well, besides Mohammad probably
03:07:42 <oerjan> ali and achmed come to mind a lot earlier
03:10:03 <oerjan> not that this tells anything about wtf phantom_hoover was referring
03:10:26 <oerjan> but i somehow doubt DS9 had any bonobo accidents.
03:10:27 <matteu> DS9 Bashir was a medical professional.
03:10:50 <oerjan> matteu: did he have a drinking problem?
03:11:21 <oerjan> `pastlog addquote.*bashir
03:11:31 <matteu> I'm too tired to start meandering through memory alpha
03:12:00 <oerjan> `pastlog addquote.*bashir
03:12:56 <oerjan> `pastelogs yeah, bashir
03:14:14 <HackEgo> 508) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
03:14:31 <oerjan> matteu: it's case insensitive
03:15:00 <oerjan> `pastelogs monqy: help how do I use lambdabot
03:15:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21140
03:16:56 <oerjan> 22:07:02: <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:17:10 <oerjan> HackEgo: YOU ARE DISAPPOINTING ME
03:17:57 <oerjan> `pastlog addquote .*bashir
03:18:04 <HackEgo> 2011-08-26.txt:22:07:02: <elliott> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:18:22 <kmc> `pastalogs
03:18:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastalogs: not found
03:19:02 <oerjan> `pastelogs yeah, bashir
03:19:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1592
03:19:41 <oerjan> he must have said it somewhere else
03:20:20 <oerjan> 22:07:12: <elliott> DS9 is a weird show.
03:20:37 <oerjan> matteu: ok that comment just after the `addquote at least implies it's probably DS9
03:21:14 <oerjan> `run pastaquote #For kmc
03:21:15 <HackEgo> 988) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
03:30:52 <HackEgo> 52) <Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands? \ 66) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED. \ 98) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing? \ 107) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutat
03:50:52 <kmc> void *call_cc(void *(*)(void (*)(void *) __attribute__((noreturn))));
03:51:27 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:51:49 <Bike> ask doesthiswork am i on candid camera
03:51:51 <Bike> @ask doesthiswork am i on candid camera
03:52:13 <kmc> declare call_cc as function (pointer to function (pointer to function (pointer to void) returning void) returning pointer to void) returning pointer to void
03:52:15 <lambdabot> doesthiswork: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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03:53:21 <Bike> kmc i said "nope.:
03:53:33 <kmc> you've seen it; you can't un-see it.
03:54:08 <Bike> what if i call/cc'd to before i saw it. what then
03:54:16 <Bike> my continuations are undelimited motherfucker
03:55:01 <kmc> Bike: have you seen the film Primer?
03:55:15 <kmc> they have a time machine that works like call/cc
03:56:02 <Bike> but does it have dynamic-wind
03:56:57 <kmc> he that troubleth his own house shall inherit the dynamic-wind
03:57:38 <kmc> "It turns out the solution to the medical records problem is not that no one has thought of using Redis"
03:58:30 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
03:59:36 <zzo38> I am also writing some prestige class for Dungeons&Dragons game; some are corresponding to deities (some are available for two deities), so this one is Gxxyuxihuvxi
03:59:43 <zzo38> ifMUD is not working very well today.
04:03:13 <kmc> is that a well-known deity
04:03:16 <kmc> or an ephemeral deity
04:04:10 <kmc> `run ls bin/*list*
04:04:12 <HackEgo> bin/emptylist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/pbflistdeluxe \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
04:04:58 <zzo38> It is a lesser-known deity; I have a list of a few
04:05:31 <zzo38> Now are you going to add alist and xlist and zlist and jlist and klist and 1list and 2list as well?
04:05:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: freelist: not found
04:06:08 * Sgeo wonders what a Free [] is, if anything
04:06:32 <Bike> i'm pretty sure there should be a list for updates to the list system
04:06:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: It is a kind of data structure; the type (Free []) ican be a single item or a list of (Free []) so it is a kind of tree structure
04:07:41 * Sgeo wasn't particularly thinking about actually thinking about this stuff
04:09:05 <zzo38> Then why do you like to ask such question?
04:09:52 <Sgeo> Because it occured to me after `freelist
04:10:05 <Sgeo> Although actually I did both in the wrong channel at first
04:10:39 <Sgeo> I may be slightly sleep deprived
04:10:56 <kmc> use after `freelist
04:11:19 <kmc> has anyone written a git-like version control system in shell script yet
04:11:23 <kmc> i think it should be pretty easy
04:13:42 <Bike> i saw a wiki in shell once.
04:16:13 <zzo38> Do you think TeX is the most portable programming language? I think it probably is, even in past and future too.
04:17:20 <Bike> C programs probably run on more systems.
04:17:48 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/b600481f5deb4a180bbad722f881b40f/tumblr_mj9s28psjK1qlh9eeo2_r1_1280.jpg has anyone noticed that polish movie posters are kind of fucked up sometimes
04:17:54 <Bike> even when it's not a polish film?
04:18:01 <zzo38> Yes, although things in C may differ by different computers.
04:20:51 <zzo38> Such as, in C, size of numbers might differ, some things about pointers might differ, it might differ ASCII/EBCDIC, floating point might be different, and other things too.
04:23:40 <zzo38> TeX is the same on all computers, except for the amount of memory available, which still has no effect on working files.
04:26:24 <zzo38> What does "ephemeral deity" mean?
04:27:15 <Bike> A deity that doesn't last long?
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04:57:52 <zzo38> What do you get when you tracert ifmud.port4000.com? I cannot connect to that server at all (the service is on port 4000).
05:00:25 <Bike> it's reachable here.
05:00:53 <Bike> ping: 10 packets transmitted, 10 received, 0% packet loss, time 9014ms
05:01:12 <zzo38> That is strange; it doesn't work here! Do you know why that is?
05:01:31 <zzo38> It worked earlier today!
05:01:44 <Bike> What about ifmud.ziz.org?
05:02:07 <zzo38> It has the same IP address.
05:02:56 <zzo38> Is there a generic proxy service which might be used?
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05:20:17 <Sgeo> TEST QUESTION:....GOOD
05:20:17 <Sgeo> ANSWER: ........BLESS
05:20:32 <Sgeo> What does that even mean as part of payment information?
05:21:05 <Bike> Have you tried praying?
05:21:29 <Sgeo> 'Thank you for your question. In certain countries, you may be required to provide the answer to a test question when picking up your Quick Cash payment. This is an additional step to ensure that your payment is transferred securely. You can find this information by examining your Statement of Earnings found under the 'details' link of the 'Payment issued' line on your Payments page. The answer to the test question will always be the 10-digit
05:21:29 <Sgeo> number labeled 'Customer ID' found in the top right corner of your Statement of Earnings.'
05:22:01 <Sgeo> BLESS is officially a 10-digit number.
05:38:50 <olsner> is that some kind of phishing to get your customer id?
05:39:04 <fizzie> That sounds like it's talking about a particular company's QuickCash payments.
05:39:26 <zzo38> I found a working HTTP CONNECT type proxy to connect there.
05:39:31 <fizzie> A company that uses the "Customer ID" as the answer to the question.
05:40:33 <fizzie> I would think in general it's just an arbitrary challenge/response pair.
05:42:09 <fizzie> Yes, you were quoting from Google's AdSense help page.
05:42:42 <fizzie> (So there's no reason for BLESS to be a 10-digit number.)
05:43:01 <olsner> hmm, the title "Hacking Secret Ciphers with Python" makes it sound like a really dumb book
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05:48:55 <fizzie> Also, my latest Western Union spam uses either TODAY/NOW or When/Now as the Q/A pair.
05:50:03 <fizzie> TODAY/NOW for the $7000 they're going to send (for reals), just as soon as I first send $100 to them with the When/Now quetion.
05:50:52 <fizzie> Oh, $7000 per day, for a total of $1.8 million.
05:50:55 <olsner> I don't understand any of that, maybe I don't read enough spam
05:53:13 <fizzie> "-- but they said that you have to send $165dollar for your transfer permit --" "HERE IS THE INFORMATION FOR YOU TO SEND THE MONEY -- Amount $100 dollar".
05:53:42 <fizzie> But is it $165 or $100! This is all too confusing! There goes my millions, I give up.
05:58:40 <kmc> shachaf: xkcd today is about a security property that i'm always talking about
05:58:52 <kmc> so from now on, whenever i talk about it, i'm making an, 'xkcd reference'
05:59:01 <kmc> isn't it great
05:59:12 <zzo38> What card games can you play?
05:59:15 <shachaf> one day xkcd will talk about how xkcd does things and then they become 'xkcd references'
05:59:19 <shachaf> and then where will kmc be
05:59:31 <Bike> kmc will have been xkcd all along.
06:00:04 <kmc> i am jack's smirking revenge
06:00:16 <shachaf> [obligatory xkcd](http://xkcd.com/1200/)
06:00:46 <Bike> it's pretty great how obligatory links are never obligated, by anybody
06:01:53 <Fiora> kmc: eventually -everything- will become an xkcd reference, as xkcd will expand to fill all possible statements
06:01:55 <kmc> zzo38: i can play Who Can Throw A Card The Furthest
06:02:25 <zzo38> kmc: I suppose it doesn't matter what kinds of cards you use, then
06:02:36 <oklofok> kmc: how far can you throw?
06:02:45 <kmc> oklofok: don't know
06:02:53 <kmc> zzo38: well the size and shape and material properties do matter
06:05:40 <oklofok> why does it matter if you're making an xkcd reference, isn't the point that they learn about the stupidity of the world, not that they learn how great you are at noticing it
06:05:57 <oklofok> or are xkcd references embarrassing even to good xkcd comics
06:06:17 <oklofok> because it's a comic and shouldn't be funny and that comic isn't funny so it fails or something
06:07:15 <oklofok> my sentences are too complicated for me
06:07:26 <oklofok> i will not listen to myself anymore
06:09:48 <Bike> are you all alive?
06:10:21 <shachaf> i can't believe you just did that
06:11:29 <shachaf> i was all, like, "hey Bike want a hug" and stuff
06:12:17 <Bike> you gotta act fast shachaf
06:12:23 <Bike> i'm not just giving these things away they're precious
06:13:17 <shachaf> like, dude, i didn't ask for a hug i offered one
06:13:23 <shachaf> well actually i just asked if you want one
06:13:30 <shachaf> ok let's forget about the whole deal
06:13:32 * pikhq_ steals a hug from Bike
06:13:57 <Fiora> bike I hope you don't dislike my hugs
06:14:47 <shachaf> should i play "Fiora's self-doubt"
06:15:12 <Bike> there's no way to win.
06:15:33 <augur> a serious, #esoteric question
06:15:56 <shachaf> Bike: no it's not a normal #esoteric person it's augur
06:16:03 <Bike> I like augurs.
06:16:06 <shachaf> he just tries to waste your time with linguistics questions and other augur nonsense
06:16:19 <augur> im writing a paper. in it i have a quote that includes a citation. should i include an entry in my own bibliography for that citation or not?
06:16:41 <pikhq_> Mi malŝat' lingvantojn!
06:17:19 <Fiora> Bike: wait you don't like them or you do <_>
06:17:29 <Bike> I don't dislike them, I said.
06:18:04 <shachaf> Fiora: Bike likes your hugs don't worry ... .....
06:18:31 <shachaf> except by hugs i mean the piece of text that goes "* Fiora hugs Bike"
06:18:40 <shachaf> because you can't give those on the internet
06:19:17 <augur> fiora is the name of one of the main characters from max headroom
06:19:29 <augur> if it were spoken by an urban yoof
06:19:41 <Fiora> it's also the name of a fire emblem character >_<
06:21:21 <augur> im just making connections
06:22:12 <shachaf> augur: have you considered going away
06:22:41 <augur> shachaf: have you considered comiting suicide?
06:22:54 <augur> it would certainly improve your attitude.
06:23:07 <Bike> Not cool, bro.
06:23:24 <shachaf> You've suggested it to me before.
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06:23:46 <augur> shachaf has an irrational dislike for me and harasses me any time we're in the same channel together for no apparent reason.
06:24:04 <Bike> Don't tell people to kill themselves, ever.
06:24:12 <augur> no clue why. one day he just decided to start badmouthing me.
06:25:13 <pikhq_> At first I thought it was just a joke, but um. what/
06:25:24 <pikhq_> I've always liked having you around.
06:25:38 <augur> i like being around.
06:25:46 <Fiora> um. maybe have you like. considered not telling people to kill themselves
06:25:48 <augur> i dont, however, like being harassed by shitbags like shachaf for no reason.
06:26:25 <augur> i dont even have to be talking and he'll start bad mouthing me for being a linguist
06:26:49 <augur> and not in the tongue in cheek kind of way but in the malicious "a linguist fucked my girlfriend" kind of way.
06:28:26 <augur> thats all i get from that asshole, and we dont even ever talk. so fuck him.
06:29:25 <pikhq_> Have you considered /ignore?
06:30:26 <augur> that would just let him badmouth me unimpinged.
06:31:21 <augur> unimpinged? unimpeded? whatever work i intended, anyway.
06:31:48 * pikhq_ raises a finger to Youtube
06:32:04 <augur> i dont know what that even means :(
06:32:27 <pikhq_> Fucking Youtube. Keeps dropping connection on me.
06:33:02 <pikhq_> Making watching videos an interesting experience wherein I get about a minute of video.
06:42:57 <doesthiswork> augur: I'm getting the feeling that it's not for no reason
06:43:18 <augur> dont confuse cause and effect, doesthiswork.
06:46:54 <doesthiswork> iterated interactions don't have cause and effect they have nash equilibriums
06:48:45 <augur> so whats new in esoland anyway
06:48:54 <augur> any interesting new esolangs of note?
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06:50:54 <pikhq_> Well, I've been working on a Chip8 emulator today.
07:09:16 <zzo38> Is there a kind of (symbolic) logic which describes well-founded Z-machine object trees?
07:11:15 <zzo38> (Each object can have or not have a parent, sibling, and child. "Well-founded" means the following: (a) An object with a sibling also has a parent. (b) An object is the parent of exactly those objects in the sibling list of its child. (c) Each object can be given a level n, such that parentless objects have level 0 and all children of a level n object have level n+1.)
07:12:40 <zzo38> (Note that the "child" the object has is the first child and then the sibling means the next one after that. The sibling should not loop.)
07:19:33 <FreeFull> pikhq_: Why not Chip16? Too complicated?
07:22:22 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Totally unrelated to that reddit thread actually. Friend of mine and I were discussing the Chip8 in particular.
07:23:41 <pikhq_> Besides, if I wanted to emulate a higher-power nicer system, well, I've already done that.
07:23:47 <pikhq_> cmako is pretty sweet.
07:24:41 <c00kiemon5ter> RogerTheGreat already implemented the mako vm for his chip8
07:25:58 <FreeFull> I just want a good Chip16 emulator that runs on linux =P
07:26:07 <FreeFull> And I never saw that reddit thread
07:26:08 <pikhq_> Also, yeah, that's what started me on it.
07:28:32 <FreeFull> There is an ngemu thread where it originated
07:31:51 <zzo38> If it is written in SDL then it can easily be ported to other operating systems.
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07:36:51 <zzo38> FreeFull: Well, nearly anything in SDL.
07:37:31 <FreeFull> I don't think Chip16 has an SDL port
07:37:35 <FreeFull> Or a C compiler that targets it
07:38:24 <zzo38> Well, anything with SDL, anyways; I don't know what all of them are.
07:40:26 <FreeFull> Mako is a programming language + VM and has multiple implementations
07:40:36 <FreeFull> I'm sure there is at least one that uses SDL
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12:32:02 <fizzie> From: IEEE Spectrum Tech Alert Subject: Robots Are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Roboticist
12:32:09 <fizzie> I'm not sure that's an entirely unbiased source.
12:32:26 <fizzie> I suppose it's better than "Robots Are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Robot".
12:32:46 <fizzie> ("We're not killing jobs, we're killing people" was the actual quote.)
12:32:57 <Jafet> ROBOTS KILLED JOBS
12:34:07 <fizzie> I don't think Jobs was very poor.
12:34:10 <Jafet> I read that subject line as "our robots still suck"
12:35:01 <fizzie> Other highlights from the same mailing: LASER FUSION'S BRIGHTEST HOPE well I suppose that'd be pretty bright yes
12:35:29 <fizzie> "WOULD THE MOB REALLY BREAK YOUR VIRTUAL KNEECAPS WITH COUNTERFEIT CHIPS?"
12:35:46 <fizzie> I suppse they have a specifically hired headline-writer there.
12:36:11 <c00kiemon5ter> I bumped on that article too, a couple of days ago
12:36:44 <c00kiemon5ter> the site it was on has two more sites that each prompt you to look at the others
12:42:18 <matteu> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, He's Already Dead, Says a Roboticist
12:42:54 <matteu> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, I Just Don't Feel Like Getting One, Says a Hobbyist Roboticist
12:43:36 <matteu> Beep boop bee-boop beep, Says a Robot
12:43:52 <fizzie> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, Says a Terrified Roboticist Working in a Lab Full of Killer Robots
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12:59:52 <c00kiemon5ter> Robots are Not Killing Jobs, says an abducted-by-robots Roboticist, who's been missing for three years
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13:08:08 <fizzie> Robots are Not Killing Joops, Says a Roboticist
13:08:40 -!- boily has joined.
13:09:10 <fizzie> (I'll let someone else do a `welcome there.)
13:10:21 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
13:11:05 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
13:13:46 <HackEgo> Joop: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:14:21 <Joop> Can nesting in all its forms be eliminated?
13:14:55 <Jafet> `run welcome there | rainwords
13:14:58 <HackEgo> there: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:18:23 <Joop> if in calculus nesting can be eliminated by the model of reverse polish notation, can it be eliminated in program flow too?
13:21:33 <AnotherTest> But nesting in calculus isn't really the same thing?
13:22:10 <AnotherTest> Unless you're not talking about things like (a + b * (c + d))
13:22:46 <AnotherTest> (which would be equivalent to a b c d + * +
13:24:03 <AnotherTest> that's clearly not the same thing as for (...) (for(...) ...)
13:26:17 <fizzie> I'm not sure what nesting in program flow means, here. But take for example some sort of cellular automaton, I don't know what would be especially "nested" there, and they can compute the usual stuff.
13:26:48 <Joop> yeah I'm not exactly sure what I want to bring up :)
13:28:08 <Joop> mmm I'm wondering if designing a 'guess the number' program
13:28:52 <Joop> the core guessing will be in a loop that exists till the right number is guessed
13:29:33 <Joop> but outside that loop will be a loop that will ask if you want to play again Y/N
13:31:30 <Joop> the guessing part of the program is nested within the 'ask again' part
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13:35:22 <Joop> can I put this 'ask again' on a stack for later use? Are there limitations with such model, do you need multiple stacks with complex programs?
13:35:58 <Joop> Just thinking out loud here, sorry
13:36:36 <AnotherTest> You could make the program execute itself again (recursion)
13:37:03 <AnotherTest> if the language you are using doesn't support nested loops
13:37:19 <AnotherTest> (although it might not support recursion either)
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13:40:39 <boily> good morning humans! just to be sure that all of us are proper first-class meatbags, please solve one of these: http://crapcha.com/
13:41:40 <Joop> I work on a little esolang that has commands for duplicating next element, moving next element to end of program, getting last element of the program, swapping next 2 elements.
13:42:35 <Joop> elements may contain 1 or more commands
13:46:47 <Joop> so you can group commands in an element but there are no other possibility to group
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14:14:09 <fizzie> I was about to say that it sounds a bit tag-systemy.
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14:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys i found a good scp: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1348
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14:34:20 <Koen_> oklofok: I feel like there's a whole world of possibilities in robozzle that I haven't unraveled yet
14:34:22 <Koen_> http://s15.postimg.org/4p207q28b/Capture_d_e_cran_2013_04_17_a_16_31_24.png
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15:01:18 <tromp_> that looks like an easy stack exercise
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15:05:15 <Koen_> tromp_: I figured as well
15:06:08 <tromp_> i was puzzled by Elevator
15:07:40 <Koen_> I was elevated by puzzle!
15:25:11 <oklofok> Koen_: did you solve that already?
15:25:39 <Koen_> that sounded awfully hard, like there was something about robozzle I didn't know about
15:25:43 <Koen_> and then tromp_ said it was easy
15:25:46 <Koen_> and then it was easy
15:26:18 <tromp_> trying Up then Down now
15:26:18 <Koen_> next one was about browsing a tree, using the call stack in a similar manner to know how long the branches were
15:26:41 <oklofok> most of the squares are useless right?
15:26:49 <oklofok> not most but the ones under you
15:27:28 <Koen_> I didn't use the down part
15:27:43 <Koen_> oklofok: I'm here now http://s21.postimg.org/5fcjavaif/Capture_d_e_cran_2013_04_17_a_17_26_44.png
15:28:11 <Koen_> I got all stars except for those in the upper part of the "2"
15:29:52 <oklofok> okay that's a finite state machine exercise i suppose
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15:31:04 <Koen_> not sure what you mean by that
15:31:19 <oklofok> that you don't need a stack
15:48:53 <kmc> elliott: did you try to guess my nickserv password
15:49:12 <elliott> if I did I don't remember it :P
15:49:25 <kmc> o no also shachaf left
15:50:21 <kmc> oh well it was a while ago
15:50:22 <kmc> 03:50 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- 2 failed logins since last login.
15:50:22 <kmc> 03:50 -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- Last failed attempt from: elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott on Mar 07 02:39:22 2013.
15:50:39 <elliott> maybe you said something was your password as a joke and i tried to ghost you just in case
15:50:58 <elliott> alternatively maybe you are actually me
15:51:10 <elliott> but no i honestly don't remember
15:51:17 <elliott> next time i will heck your aim more successfully
15:51:36 <elliott> 02:36:53: <kmc> /msg nickserv ghost elliott
15:51:36 <elliott> 02:37:08: <elliott> kmc: whats your password
15:51:36 <elliott> 02:38:05: <kmc> bonghits4jesus
15:51:49 <elliott> 02:38:42: <elliott> i didn't believe you but tried to ghost you nonetheless
15:51:49 <elliott> 02:38:47: <elliott> basic principles of professionalism
15:51:49 <elliott> 02:38:54: <kmc> you sure did
15:51:56 <elliott> 02:39:06: <elliott> did it tell you
15:51:56 <elliott> 02:39:11: <Bike> you're one of the worst sleepers i've ever seen.
15:51:56 <elliott> 02:39:16: <elliott> did it say hey kmc im nickserv the snitchand that elliott guy is the WORST
15:51:59 <elliott> 02:39:16: <kmc> nobody will guess my password because i used the numeral '4' instead of the word 'four'
15:52:48 <elliott> IS MY NAME CLEARED NOW, KMC????
16:00:53 <elliott> i think kmc is preparing to sue me as we speak
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16:07:47 <fizzie> I've forgotten my RoboZZle account. :/ :\
16:08:41 <mroman_> Somewhere within 7 Mio. Years somebody eventually will have the same password as you .
16:09:10 <mroman_> if everybody only has one password, of course.
16:09:25 <fizzie> There is no "I'm stupid and lost my password" button in the login form.
16:09:37 <mroman_> to be realistic it's probably somewhere within 1 Mio. Years.
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16:10:06 <fizzie> I don't even know if I'm this "fizzie", but it sounds reasonably possible from the list of solved puzzels.
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16:31:17 <elliott> `run echo '<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes' >wisdom/scotland
16:31:19 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
16:31:25 <elliott> `run echo "<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes" >wisdom/scotland
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16:39:44 <kmc> how could you forget the deep fried mars bars
16:39:55 <kmc> and the having your oil money stolen by england
16:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "if they can even remember it's not the same as ireland"
16:41:16 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbjunxHrNp1qzeo2zo1_500.jpg like this?
16:44:30 <Phantom_Hoover> (Do people really confuse the two? Like is it really not just another "stupid american" joke?)
16:46:57 <kmc> "People won't equate you with a natural disaster, ma'am." "Really, Amy? Cause I've met some people. Okay, real people. And I gotta tell ya: a lot of 'em are fucking idiots."
16:47:42 <fizzie> I confess my geographical knowledge of the US states is quite poor.
16:48:09 <Bike> it's pretty boring knowledge
16:48:21 <kmc> americans who grow up on the coasts often have a pretty truncated understanding of the middle of the country
16:50:13 <elliott> america is too big to understand IMO
16:50:17 <elliott> sort of like graham's number
16:51:28 <fizzie> I've heard some Americans are too big to understand, too.
16:52:24 <Bike> i'm going to assume that's a joke about walt whitman
16:56:19 <Jafet> The united US states
16:56:29 <elliott> 03:20:37: <oerjan> matteu: ok that comment just after the `addquote at least implies it's probably DS9
16:56:32 <elliott> 03:21:06: <matteu> yay DS9
16:56:43 <elliott> it was about a dwarf fortress dwarf named after the DS9 bashir
16:57:36 <elliott> 04:11:19: <kmc> has anyone written a git-like version control system in shell script yet
16:57:39 <elliott> 04:11:23: <kmc> i think it should be pretty easy
16:57:46 <kmc> lololololol
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17:05:09 <elliott> so is there no rule against telling people to commit suicide in here
17:05:13 <elliott> b/c that would be a pretty good rule
17:05:18 <elliott> (hi i finished logreading)
17:05:49 <Bike> is the rule that fuck that? because fuck that
17:06:11 <Bike> oh shachaf is still gone
17:07:09 <elliott> (the joke is the implication that this channel would have rules)
17:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell matteu since you probably don't logread, the bashir in question was my doctor in dwarf fortress
17:09:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/pastalog: cannot execute: Permission denied
17:09:47 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 19 Mar 31 19:00 bin/pastalog
17:10:05 <Bike> `cat bin/pastalog
17:10:17 <Bike> `run chmod +x bin/pastalog
17:10:53 <HackEgo> 2013-01-23.txt:12:12:59: <oerjan> `pastaquote
17:11:16 <HackEgo> bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote
17:11:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec quote "pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle"
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17:11:44 <HackEgo> 988) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
17:12:07 <elliott> fizzie: i don't suppose you might consider doing something about this. getting a channel regular to leave because you told them to kill themselves is out of line. and this isn't the first time he's done it to shachaf
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17:43:51 <elliott> 12:35:29: <fizzie> "WOULD THE MOB REALLY BREAK YOUR VIRTUAL KNEECAPS WITH COUNTERFEIT CHIPS?"
17:43:56 <elliott> btw this made me think of chips as in chips chips
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17:44:19 * Bike_ eats american kind
17:44:21 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
17:46:20 <fizzie> I don't really consider a "why don't you kill yourself" reply per se so out of line, to a (basically) "why don't you shut up" comment that, as far as I can tell, didn't really have any particular reason behind it. Certainly -- based on a quick grep -- there seems to be a well-established channel tradition of telling other people to kill themselves, even if this instance was more malicious than ...
17:46:27 <fizzie> If you like, I can "do something" in the sense that I issue an official proclamation that requests that people stick to civil discussion on interesting matters and avoid personal attacks of any kind. I'm sure that'll take care of everything.
17:46:31 <fizzie> In any case, I'm not sure what "doing something" would be, since the only administrative tool around here is the banhammer, and I don't think there's a strong tradition of permanently banning people that don't get along with other people, just outright prolonged harrassment. If even that.
17:47:00 <fizzie> It's kind of like how politics works, I understand? It's all strongly worded notes of protest.
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17:47:49 <kmc> that's how diplomacy works, politics not so much
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17:48:01 <boily> a “do something” thing could be me filling out the missing pieces of my coördinates/body weight list, and use that to deploy some kind of neurotoxic agent to disrespectful members.
17:48:13 <boily> (a neurotoxic substance that makes people behave well, mind you)
17:48:17 <Bike> Could you tell people (in an oply way) not to tell people to kill themselves?
17:48:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
17:48:52 <fizzie> Don't tell people to kill themselves, it's not cool.
17:48:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
17:49:09 <Bike> i mean, whe it happens ¬_¬
17:49:24 <fizzie> (But, really, people say "kill yourself" to other people here all the time.)
17:49:41 <Bike> `pastelogs kill yourself
17:49:54 <Bike> `run ls bin/past*
17:50:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9056
17:50:04 <HackEgo> bin/pastalog \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom \ bin/pastlog
17:50:25 <elliott> i certainly said nothing about permabans... anyway general insults are quite categorically different from telling people to kill themselves, especially when you separate things said in jest, among friends, which is rather different (esp. when a repeat incident)
17:50:39 <elliott> logs are one thing, I'm sure I've done it myself; I've done lots of things I'd rather not
17:50:51 <fizzie> Well, there's that; normally the tone's quite different, yes.
17:51:47 <elliott> not saying anything about what shachaf said himself or whether that deserved any response or wahtever, but I don't think you can say it's on the same level
17:52:12 <elliott> "o well" -- kmc, Greek philosopher (2013)
17:52:50 <Jafet> Why don't you go perform a felo-de-se
17:53:37 <fizzie> Is that something you can eat?
17:54:07 <kmc> is that a final sigma
17:54:18 <boily> it is a final sigma.
17:54:24 <elliott> Keegan McAllister and the Final Sigma
17:54:25 <kmc> boily: I figured since it comes from "McAllister" it should be the hard sound
17:54:30 <Jafet> Final things are not allowed in here
17:54:36 <kmc> but χ isn't right either
17:54:43 <kmc> i guess just κμκ
17:54:45 <kmc> looks dumb
17:55:31 <elliott> kmc's REAL name is actually Kay Emcee
17:56:03 <Bike> master of ceremonies
17:56:53 <boily> my first name is of greek origin, but trying to fit boily into that sounds painful.
17:57:23 <elliott> hm there is an awful lot of spam on the wiki
17:57:28 <elliott> perhaps I should change tack and make fizzie an admin instead.
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17:59:43 <boily> oh. Shift-7 on a finnish keyboard.
17:59:55 <elliott> how wrong can you possibly be
18:00:07 <elliott> wait what is that IAm_thor2 thing. presumably a bot from the hostname
18:00:37 <boily> I know that Shift-7 is &, my keyboard knows that Shift-7 is &, but why fizzie's tnick?
18:01:03 <fizzie> The 7foo "oh look I tried to make an IRC command but typoed, how amusing" "joke" is quite common on Finnish IRCnet channels.
18:01:04 <Phantom_Hoover> can you do greek letters with the default XCompose setup
18:01:09 <fizzie> Didn't think of keyboard layouts.
18:01:25 <fizzie> / is what it's in ours. Ours is kind of strange.
18:01:56 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: i don't know of a way
18:02:06 <fizzie> Typically it's used as "7msg someone something salacious".
18:03:09 <elliott> 7msg fizzie something salacious
18:03:52 <fizzie> (Also, is there no Unicode for $\varphi$, I like that much more than $\phi$, which is what φ here looks like. I guess there shouldn't be one, but when has that stopped Unicode?)
18:04:13 <elliott> what is the difference again
18:04:37 <fizzie> $\phi$ is the one that you get if you just put | on top of a o, while $\varphi$ is the loopy kinda thing.
18:05:12 <fizzie> http://detexify.kirelabs.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/latex/2bf9aa2da649fb42fb7290ca2d861d1c.png <- $\varphi$
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18:05:39 <fizzie> http://detexify.kirelabs.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/latex/3336b533e43ccfa8df784d507b171627.png <- $\phi$
18:05:53 <fizzie> And this is just the DejaVu Sans Mono, I think. If it has Greek in it.
18:06:16 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Don't tell people to kill themselves, I hear it's not cool.
18:06:25 <kmc> fizzie: there must be some maths paper that uses $\phi$ and $\varphi$ to mean different things, which would be enough for Unicode
18:06:38 <kmc> cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Alphanumeric_Symbols
18:06:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Next time I'll drop "I hear".
18:07:00 <fizzie> Maybe I should've looked there.
18:07:43 <elliott> bike is suffering from rapid chin expansion
18:07:46 <fizzie> That's funny, it's the loopy phi there, even for the normal one.
18:07:51 <elliott> well i guess that's not really a chin
18:07:59 * boily stretches bike face
18:08:12 <Bike> -_______________________-
18:08:39 <fizzie> There was some trick in gucharmap that could be used to tell which font it's currently using to render which symbol.
18:08:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, (we're testing fizzie's "tell people not to tell people to kill themselves" protocols)
18:09:05 <fizzie> "in mathematical contexts, the loopy glyph is preferred, to contrast with U+03D5 GREEK PHI SYMBOL" is what it says about regular Greek small letter phi.
18:09:10 <Taneb> I had a picnic today with my friends
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18:11:05 <Bike> ◊_______________________◊
18:12:48 <boily> `addquote <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
18:12:52 <HackEgo> 1034) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
18:13:20 <HackEgo> 854) <shachaf> Bike: Your client colours people? <Bike> it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life \ 857) <Bike> "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account" \ 877) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably t
18:15:10 <elliott> Bike: so do all bikes have eyes like that
18:16:11 <elliott> http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.1886
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18:18:46 <fizzie> "-- demonstrating that human collective behavior is consistent with the predictions of simplified models." Sounds like psychohistory.
18:18:48 <HackEgo> 877) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
18:19:35 <olsner> is hacker news more javascript than lisp?
18:20:46 <elliott> also: http://mattbierbaum.github.io/moshpits.js/
18:21:34 <FireFly> Those semicolons could be dropped, at least
18:23:58 <elliott> Taneb: have you considered: dude
18:24:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Taneb.
18:24:54 <Taneb> I've just been voiced, haven't I
18:27:02 <boily> The Voice of Taneb That Shines in the Night
18:27:16 <boily> (or day. we're having a pretty sunny day now, for a change.)
18:29:05 <elliott> the voice of taneb that shines in the day but not quite as much
18:30:15 <elliott> Treatise On The Frightening Discovery That Walls & Birds Don't Exist
18:33:58 <olsner> is there a name for the idea that if you don't remember something it hasn't actually happened?
18:53:07 <nooodl> that's called "being dumb" hth
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19:22:01 <elliott> does anyone know any good workarounds for universe inconsistencies in coq
19:31:56 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Taneb.
19:33:08 <boily> according to my trusty steed, I must be voiced.
19:33:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v metasepia.
19:33:38 <boily> I really had it coming.
19:34:24 <boily> oh well. that means only one thing...
19:35:14 <boily> HARK YE, YOU HEATHENS! BEHAVE YOUR PUNY SELVES OR INCUR THE WRATH OF THE ERROR(1) ON YOUR MISSHAPEN BODY!
19:36:27 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:36:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v metasepia.
19:37:02 <boily> ah, that fell good. thanks elliott. now let's never do that again.
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19:43:29 <Taneb> Hi ais523, how are you doing?
19:43:37 <ais523> Taneb: I've just woken up
19:43:47 <Taneb> That's... probably not good
19:43:51 <Taneb> When did you go to sleep
19:43:57 <lambdabot> Local time for ais523 is Wed Apr 17 20:43:56 2013
19:44:18 <Taneb> 9 hours sleep, not that bad, then
19:44:27 <Taneb> You're somewhat in the wrong time zone
19:44:35 <Taneb> But other than that...
19:44:43 <ais523> Taneb: well I revolve around the world over time
19:45:00 <ais523> I'm in the correct timezone occasionally
19:45:22 <Taneb> Don't you, like, have a job for which you need to appear respectable for?
19:47:06 <boily> if I'm clothed, that means I'm at work, or not changing armour at the moment.
19:47:33 <elliott> Taneb: he's a grad student
19:47:40 <elliott> they don't appear respectable no matter what they do, so why try?
19:47:48 <metasepia> "Beware of programmers carrying screwdrivers."
19:47:50 <Taneb> elliott, makes sense
19:48:00 <Taneb> On another note, has the favicon for Wikipedia changed?
19:48:02 <elliott> actually is ais523 still a grad student
19:48:13 <elliott> ais523: let us know when we have to start calling you dr ais523
19:49:05 <ais523> I'm currently in the fourth of four ¾-years
19:49:14 <ais523> due to the PhD being part time
19:49:21 <metasepia> ESSA 171920Z 22012KT CAVOK 09/00 Q1012 R88/09//95 NOSIG
19:49:45 <elliott> ais523: what are you working on these days?
19:50:06 <ais523> elliott: PhD/job-wise? or hobby-wise?
19:50:55 <ais523> elliott: in terms of my PhD, I'm busy trying to write up the categorical and game semantics for ICA-like language rigorously
19:51:07 <ais523> and in a way that doesn't annoy category theorists
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19:51:23 <ais523> it's easy to make a rigorous semantics, but hard to do it in a way that won't annoy people
19:51:30 <ais523> (which is important when you want them to mark your work)
19:52:36 <ais523> for the teaching, it's the last week of the easter holiday
19:52:37 <elliott> ais523: categorical semantics are interesting, I should learn about them sometime
19:52:52 <ais523> so I want to give the students some advice on how to do exams next week
19:53:09 <ais523> in theory they've all done A-levels and the like, but given that they're coming from all over the world and all sorts of education systems
19:53:16 <ais523> some of them might not realise how exams actually work
19:53:42 <ais523> and many more might not realise how they work at Birmingham University (things like "always bring proof of ID")
19:54:23 <ais523> also talking about things like "if a question's only worth one mark, you're wasting your time if you write an essay in response", and talking about how their degree class is calculated
19:54:33 <ais523> in terms of hobbies, I'm mostly working on Pokémon at the moment
19:54:38 <ais523> so jsondb, together with just playtesting
19:54:39 <Taneb> ais523, if I was a student at Birmingham, and brought my Australian passport, and spoke in a crap Aussie accent, would I get kicked out
19:54:54 <ais523> Taneb: you're technically Australian?
19:54:58 <ais523> but we get worse accents than that, anyway
19:55:12 <Taneb> But I cannot do the accent at all
19:55:48 <ais523> Taneb: normally just bringing your university ID card is enough, and we actually prefer it that way
19:56:20 <ais523> because it has a photo on it
19:56:38 <ais523> it basically stems from incidents in the past where people paid other people to sit the exams for them
19:57:05 <ais523> and given that the invigilators are often centralised rather than come from the department that sets the exam, without ID that might be missed altogether
19:58:08 <ais523> elliott: I decided to write my own database engine in JavaScript, also Perl
19:58:15 <ais523> I think you missed the discussions where I came to that decision
19:58:28 <ais523> although they were in #esoteric so you might have logread them
19:58:40 <ais523> it's not heavily optimized, or really meant to be
19:59:09 <ais523> but it's easier to use from a programming point of view than writing SQL because you don't have to write all the joins by hand
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20:06:52 <oerjan> <elliott> oh neither are here <-- DOES IT MATTER
20:09:44 <ais523> anyway it's mostly aimed at keeping the source size small, also at keeping the database size small
20:09:53 <ais523> (small-compressed, because the database is, obviously, stored as JSON)
20:12:23 <fizzie> Are category theorists easy to annoy? (They sound like they would be.)
20:12:43 <oerjan> <fizzie> I would think in general it's just an arbitrary challenge/response pair. <-- i think the half year i had a US account, it was "what is your mother's maiden name". though maybe i just remember that because it's stereotypical.
20:13:21 <oerjan> fizzie: only up to isomorphism.
20:13:59 <oerjan> you may _think_ they're annoyed, but it might be a different feeling.
20:14:12 <Gregor> Hello, voiceless peons.
20:14:16 <Gregor> How is #esoteric today?
20:14:16 <olsner> isomorphisms annoy category theorists?
20:14:28 <lambdabot> *** "peon" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
20:14:29 <lambdabot> n 1: a laborer who is obliged to do menial work [syn: {drudge},
20:14:30 <boily> what is down from isomorphism?
20:14:31 <Taneb> Gregor, I would tell you, but I seem to be voiceless
20:14:32 <fizzie> oerjan: I remember a story (maybe from notalwaysright.com or something) about a guy calling customer service, and them asking the security question, and he'd been drunk or something when setting up the account, so the security question was something like "am I an asshole?", and then he said "um, no", and that was the wrong answer.
20:14:35 <metasepia> Peonage is a type of involuntary servitude of laborers having little control over their employment conditions.
20:14:52 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Gregor.
20:15:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
20:15:17 <oerjan> let's not go overboard here.
20:15:26 <Gregor> I didn't know I was so close to the edge!
20:15:44 <boily> what's the protocol for trying to go kill yourself?
20:15:54 <elliott> my campaign would like to remark that I had no involvement in this devoicing.
20:15:58 <Gregor> boily: /ctcp self terminate
20:16:18 <elliott> I believe Gregor's logs will implicate oerjan, who is acting as a rogue agent against my popularly-supported op campaign.
20:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, <Gregor> Time to kill myself. ← imo requires comment
20:16:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: IMO shut up.
20:16:35 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I couldn't decide if it did.
20:16:45 <fizzie> I suppose self-edges are edges too.
20:17:33 <oerjan> elliott: i'm just speaking up for the anti-peonists (which are people against peonism, _not_ people against people who happen, due to temporary misfortune, to be peons, hth)
20:17:59 <elliott> oerjan: okay. you should elect a peonist for balance.
20:18:04 <elliott> have I mentioned how much I support the plight of the peons?
20:18:34 <elliott> i mean their plight to appreciate voices
20:19:35 <fizzie> Once there was an adventure game, and it had a "listen" command, and (as far as I know, anyway) the only thing the "listen" command did in any state of the game was to pop up a message saying "I hear voices, do you?"
20:19:59 <olsner> ISTR the king's quest games did a lot with their verbs
20:20:22 <fizzie> olsner: This was a game without a parser, all the commands were in a menu at the bottom.
20:20:32 <AnotherTest> I'm using my mouse with my left hand even tho I'm right-handed for some reason
20:20:42 <boily> Gregor: the ctcp doesn't work. :/
20:20:48 <AnotherTest> someone told me it will make me stammer, lol
20:21:05 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It'll make your palms hairy.
20:21:29 <olsner> fizzie: I don't think there was a text version of any king's quest
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20:23:48 <oerjan> http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/las-vegas/86330d1319291357-hairy-palms-palms.jpg
20:24:03 <fizzie> olsner: Didn't those -- pre-VI, anyway -- use a parsed text input as the interaction method, though?
20:24:09 <fizzie> Or maybe pre-V. Something.
20:25:00 <olsner> I guess those would be before my time
20:25:09 <fizzie> The game in question was also edutainment, and designed to teach things about puberty, I think.
20:25:20 <fizzie> Also things in general, like "stealing is wrong" and so on.
20:25:31 <fizzie> And "dogs eat sausage".
20:25:52 <Taneb> "dogs eat sausage" important lessons about puberty
20:25:57 <fizzie> And there was something about rusty bedframes in a tree, and maybe a junkyard.
20:26:15 <Taneb> ...didn't something like that happen near the end of the Odyssey?
20:26:16 <fizzie> I sort of have only very vague recollections about this game, and I've never been able to find it anywhere.
20:26:41 <fizzie> (I'd appreciate if someone could find me a copy of MURKKU.)
20:26:43 <elliott> are you sure it wasn't finnish and hence non-existent
20:26:56 <fizzie> It most certainly was Finnish.
20:26:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i half-remember that and now i'm starting to think the odyssey was really stupid
20:26:58 <boily> s/finnish/canadianish/
20:27:09 <fizzie> (In fact, the command was "kuuntele", and the message was "Kuulen ääniä, kuuletko sinäkin?")
20:27:11 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the Iliad actually had robots
20:27:19 <olsner> MURKKU, a tale of darkness and death?
20:27:35 <olsner> or maybe it was cold and loneliness
20:27:55 <fizzie> olsner: It's a colloquialism for "murrosikäinen", i.e. a person undergoing puberty.
20:28:07 <fizzie> (Also for "muurahainen", an ant.)
20:28:36 <fizzie> All I've found from the internets are some Finnish forum posts about people reminiscing about old games.
20:30:16 <fizzie> Probably it's on a floppy, somewhere in the world.
20:30:50 <olsner> probably only in finland
20:31:30 <fizzie> I might have the school's Netware server's SCSI drive (over a hundred megabytes!) somewhere, it's also even conceivable that it's on there, but I haven't seen it in a decade.
20:32:20 <olsner> how many different scsi variants are there, do you have the hardware and cables to read it?
20:33:25 <fizzie> There are quite a few variants. I did have it connected to something, I remember that much.
20:33:46 <fizzie> The Sun/SGI boxes both speak some form of SCSI.
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20:36:55 <fizzie> Also a chapter on "strange design decisions": the name-brand PC we had at home, a Compaq Presario CDS633 (486SX/33 + "multimedia"), it had a SCSI CD-ROM drive, and also a variant of SB16 where the same (ISA) card housed an Adaptec SCSI chipset, to which the CD-ROM was hooked.
20:37:27 <olsner> I think the soundcard/cd adapter combo was pretty common
20:37:56 <olsner> but I think I've mostly seen it with IDE (unless there's a scsi over a similar connector that I confused it with)
20:38:09 <fizzie> Yes, that's more common; and also with some proprietary interfaces.
20:38:21 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SB16 "The Sound Blaster with the SCSI controller (SB 16 SCSI-2) was designed for use with "High End" SCSI based CD-ROM drives."
20:38:32 <fizzie> Yeah, "High End", it was double-speed.
20:39:06 <fizzie> That's, what, 300 kilobytes every second?
20:40:00 <fizzie> In any case, technically you could have used to to connect any SCSI devices. (Except the boot drive, as the above-mentioned article explains.)
20:40:28 <kmc> did you still need to also hook up the analog sound cable if you wanted to play CD-Audio?
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20:40:57 <kmc> that always seemed so strange to me
20:40:58 <fizzie> At least for "regular" playback.
20:41:00 <olsner> 300kBps is a bit less than CD audio
20:41:18 <kmc> i guess that's why...
20:41:40 <kmc> also CD-Audio is missing the error correction of CD-ROM
20:41:52 <fizzie> olsner: 44100*2*2 -> 176400 bytes per second.
20:42:01 <kmc> not sure why that should matter, but it's different anyway
20:42:33 <fizzie> The error correction aspect is the reason for the difference between the 1x "150 kBps" data speed, and that audio data rate.
20:43:01 <olsner> probably more a matter of it being fairly ridiculous to read the digital data at "high" speeds only to shuffle the bytes back to the same card they came from so they can be converted to analog
20:43:03 <fizzie> 2352 bytes of audio, vs. 2048 bytes of data.
20:43:27 <olsner> hmm, I think I was thinking about the MB/minute figure for cd audio there
20:43:55 <fizzie> Yes, it would've presumably had a reasonable CPU cost, too.
20:44:10 <fizzie> Whereas you could have CD audio playing in the background quite well.
20:44:21 <fizzie> When the drive was doing the D/A and all by itself, that is.
20:44:58 <fizzie> There's a number of CD-ROM games where the soundtrack's as audio tracks on the CD, played by the game as required.
20:46:29 <kmc> is CD Audio straight up PCM?
20:46:49 <kmc> ah yeah. they call it "Linear PCM" just to be precise
20:47:38 <Fiora> linear because it's not curved (like mu-law or something) right?
20:48:03 <fizzie> Fiora: Yes, probably to distinguish from µ-law and A-law.
20:48:28 <fizzie> One of the "new" CD formats (SACD) is some sort of fancy 1-bit resolution, 2.8 MHz sampling rate thing.
20:48:49 <boily> curved PCM, where instead of straight PCM with 1s and 0s, you have ) and D.
20:48:52 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital ?
20:50:44 <fizzie> The delta-sigma thing is a common ADC/DAC design, it's kind of related.
20:51:14 <fizzie> I remember the topic being briefly covered on some signal processing course or another.
20:53:50 <Fiora> oooh. so the actual audio signal is basically an integral over the DTD signal?
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20:56:55 <fizzie> Pretty much. Compared to regular 16-bit linear PCM, you just make the small steps with the impulses.
20:59:04 <fizzie> The Wikipedia "Delta-sigma modulation" article looks (at a glance) quite comprehensive.
20:59:20 <kmc> is it an integral, or just a low-pass filter?
20:59:34 <fizzie> Even if it needs additional citations for verification. (December 2011) may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. (June 2011) may be too technical for most readers to understand. (June 2011)
20:59:54 <kmc> it seems like an extreme case of oversampling and then low-pass filtering to get greater effective resolution than your sample resolution
21:02:47 <fizzie> I guess that might be just a point of view? Certainly that's how the DAC side goes, you twiddle a voltage according to the 0s and 1s and then low-pass filter out the high-frequency components.
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21:04:16 <kmc> that's also how the PC speaker works
21:04:17 <Taneb> Geharrewar looks promising
21:04:20 <kmc> but with poor filtering I think
21:04:39 <Fiora> huh, so the PC speaker is a 1-bit speaker?
21:04:54 <kmc> i think so
21:04:57 <fizzie> The traditional one is, yes.
21:05:03 <kmc> of course these days it might be an emulation by the on-board sound chipset
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21:07:44 <fizzie> It also arguably doesn't have an actual "low-pass filter", it's just that it's a physical device and the moving parts obey the laws of physics.
21:08:03 <olsner> can a speaker be 1-bit? I'd say you just only get one bit to control it
21:08:12 <olsner> (if you don't rather set a frequency with the right magic bits)
21:08:56 <fizzie> olsner: A massless ideal point speaker that produces a "1-bit" pressure wave.
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21:09:16 <olsner> there's nothing ideal about the PC speaker :)
21:09:28 <fizzie> It's an approximation. :p
21:09:35 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, wouldn't that, like, make the air in front of it explode?
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21:11:13 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It was already a point source, so... I suppose I don't know. Maybe it just makes more air as needed, in order to make the high-pressure parts of the wave.
21:12:17 <Fiora> the air in front of it momentarily turns into a quark-gluon plasma
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21:13:05 <fizzie> I also don't know if SACD really made it anywhere. Certainly I've never seen a player, or a disc.
21:13:21 <ais523> fizzie: well a real-life speaker attempting to change DC offset (i.e. a step function) sounds like a click
21:13:28 <ais523> obviously it can't do it exactly
21:13:33 <ais523> but modern speakers can do quite a good approximation
21:13:53 <fizzie> I think there was a DVD-Audio disc somewhere.
21:14:22 <fizzie> That's just "boring" linear PCM, but it goes up to 192 kHz and 24 bits.
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21:17:06 <fizzie> It's a proprietary lossless compression format.
21:17:15 <fizzie> (Probably patented? They usually are.)
21:17:24 <ais523> fizzie: are current digital microphones good enough to capture 24 bits at 192 kHz?
21:17:27 <olsner> I should read something about lossless audio compression some day
21:17:57 <Fiora> I think they're all relatively similar? like I remember FLAC is basically LPC + rice coding
21:18:01 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_predictive_coding
21:18:14 <fizzie> I think Blü-ray incorpamorated MLP as a mandatory technology too.
21:18:16 <Fiora> so like there's all these weird formats like TTA and Monkeys Audio and stuff
21:18:31 <Fiora> but I think they're mostly just variations on LPC with different entropy back-ends?
21:18:36 <fizzie> Maybe it was optional.
21:19:08 <elliott> huh, LucasArts shut down and I didn't even notice.
21:19:17 <fizzie> Yes, seems that it's optional. (It's what Dolby "TrueHD" uses.)
21:19:57 <olsner> hmm, they did didn't they? I saw something about that
21:20:11 <elliott> admittedly they hadn't done anything even remotely interesting for three years. and nothing *really* interesting for 15.
21:20:13 <olsner> to be fair, has lucasarts done anything in the last 5-10 years?
21:20:29 <elliott> they did those updated versions of MI1/MI2
21:20:49 <fizzie> Fiora: Wikipedia says Monkey's Audio takes approximately as much resources to decode as it does to encode, which sounds kind of strange.
21:21:00 <olsner> there was some kind of kickstarter or similar for a new monkey island installment, I think? but unconnected to lucasarts as I understood it
21:21:27 <fizzie> I think they did one of the Star Wars games themselves, too. (I don't know which one.)
21:21:42 <olsner> (or maybe that was some unrelated game by the same people who presumably left lucasarts before then)
21:21:59 <Fiora> fizzie: I think I remember APE was the one that used arithmetic coding? so it ate CPU like crazy
21:22:05 <ais523> elliott: I noticed, fwiw
21:22:06 <Fiora> (relative to like, FLAC)
21:22:11 <ais523> but basically because the tech news were all discussing it
21:22:26 <ais523> and the majority opinion was "well, they used to be good, but it's no real loss nowadays"
21:22:47 <elliott> ais523: you should have told me! now it's too late to, um. i don't know, replay grim fandango or something
21:23:04 <fizzie> Fiora: I'm not sure why everyone just doesn't use FLAC for their lossless needs, honestly.
21:23:06 <elliott> actually if I tried to replay Grim Fandango, it'd probably last about five minutes before I give up thanks to the interface.
21:23:23 <ais523> elliott: can you give a precise definition of what tech news I should inform you of?
21:23:34 <Fiora> fizzie: my feeling is that lossless formats are way easier to make than lossy ones (since you don't have to worry about all the crazy complicated psychoacoustic stuff)
21:23:38 <Fiora> so they tend to breed
21:23:56 <Fiora> open source wise people probably make them for fun, and companies like Dolby make their own so they can sell them (?)
21:24:10 <fizzie> I do think at least Apple Lossless is LPC-based.
21:24:20 <ais523> Fiora: now I'm wondering: you know how old computer programs used to be stored on audio tape?
21:24:22 <fizzie> Good old linear prediction, the workhorse of everything.
21:24:34 <ais523> back before audio cassettes were separated from data storage?
21:24:39 <olsner> this approach of shutting down after having done nothing notable for years seems somehow better than that whole idea about stopping when you're at your best
21:24:49 <elliott> nobody was alive back then, ais523
21:24:53 <Fiora> and it seems like it's "not too hard" to beat flac by a tiny little bit, so people like to do that?
21:24:53 * kmc should learn how arithmetic coding works, one day
21:24:56 <elliott> the world started existing in 1995
21:25:03 <ais523> would an .mp3 of those work? or would it fail because it filtered out things that are inaudible to humans but matter to the computer?
21:25:16 <elliott> presumably they had to have a bunch of redundancy and error correction?
21:25:20 <elliott> since tape isn't exactly the most reliable of formats
21:25:24 <kmc> ais523: i used to store TRS-80 programs on my Windows machine, but as uncompressed PCM
21:25:31 <ais523> elliott: well my first computer was one of the first available-to-the-general-public systems which used floppy drives rather than cassette drives
21:25:32 <olsner> kmc: or range coding which is exactly the same but not patented
21:25:47 <fizzie> ais523: I think they're quite robust, FWIW. I mean, people sent them over FM radio.
21:25:53 <Fiora> kmc: I think I remember the explanation that had to be pounded into my head in order to actually finally get it <.<
21:25:55 <kmc> i know that programs were sometimes sent over radio, or pressed onto cheapo records and included in computer magazines
21:25:59 <kmc> Fiora: oh?
21:26:14 <fizzie> Of course the psychoacoustics like masking will be all wrong for data.
21:26:20 <ais523> fizzie: yes but that was analog
21:26:26 <olsner> iirc c64 used a really simple encoding, something like beep=1 and silence=0
21:26:27 <Fiora> um, so basically like. let's say you have a range of values between 0.0 and 1.0
21:26:34 <Fiora> so [0.0,1.0] is our range
21:26:49 <ais523> and these data were basically designed to be sent over analog systems, FM radio isn't much different from an audio cassette in that respect
21:26:52 <fizzie> ais523: Anyway, you could go and do an empirical test of it, with just a computer.
21:26:54 <Fiora> now let's say we're encoding a bit, and our probability is "60% 1, 40% 0", so we've decided a priori for some reason that 1s are more likely than 0s
21:27:15 <Fiora> and let's say we decide to code a 1
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21:27:29 <ais523> fizzie: yeah except I'd need some sort of converter between lossless audio (probably .wav) and actual program files
21:27:32 <Fiora> so we split the range, [0,0.6] and [0.6,1.0]
21:27:41 <fizzie> ais523: Those are freely available, though.
21:27:48 <Fiora> the first range is the range that we'd get with a 1, and the second is the range we'd get with a 0.
21:27:54 <Fiora> since we're doing a 1, we now have [0,0.6]
21:27:56 <fizzie> ais523: I've used them to write C64 tapes with a cassette deck connected to a soundcard.
21:28:24 <Fiora> okay, so now we repeat the process. let's say we code a 0. we end up with [0.36,0.6].
21:28:31 <Fiora> now, our range is smaller than 0.5! so we need to renormalize.
21:28:45 <Fiora> or wait... ignore that last thing I said <.< I'm dumb.
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21:29:13 <Fiora> we repeat the process until our range no longer crosses 0.5.
21:29:34 <Fiora> when it stops crossing 0.5, if the range is /below/ 0.5, we output a "0", otherwise we output a "1", and we expand the range by a factor of 2 to compensate.
21:29:50 <Fiora> basically, we're constructing a loooonnnnng continued binary fraction.
21:29:58 <Fiora> when our range doesn't cross 0.5, we "know for sure" the next bit of the fraction.
21:30:06 <Fiora> "renormalizing" writes out that bit of the fraction, and expands the range.
21:30:11 <olsner> can't you end up unlucky with a range getting closer and closer to 0.5?
21:30:33 <kmc> i'll have to think about it more later (kinda distracted atm)
21:30:35 <olsner> i.e. never reaching the point where you know if it's a 0 or 1 to write
21:30:37 <kmc> but it basically makes sense
21:30:38 <Fiora> you totally can, but it's progressively less likely? and I think arithmetic coders have some thing to work around it
21:30:54 <Fiora> like, what'll end up happening is at some point you'll stop crossing 0.5, and you'll have a looooot of bits to write.
21:31:07 <Fiora> I think the thing is typically the range is quantized? so like, it's not an infinite rational decimal
21:31:17 <Fiora> so eventually at some point you have to round and stop crossing it XD
21:31:23 <fizzie> olsner: The various fast loaders do optimize the tape encodings, though.
21:31:36 <Fiora> I'm really not sure about the details though, I think it depends on the implementation...
21:31:53 <fizzie> (The ROM routines are more about robustness than speed, I think.)
21:32:29 <Fiora> the other important bit I think was that the really important part is how you pick the probabilities, which is where all the interesting stuff comes in
21:32:29 <olsner> you just fudge the probabilities for symbols to make sure you have a decision within a specific number of bits?
21:32:30 <elliott> Fiora: hm, thanks for the explanation
21:32:43 <elliott> I didn't know how arithmetic coders work and now it mostly makes sense
21:33:01 <Fiora> arithmetic coding is basically just a thing that lets you have fractional output bits per input bit (unlike huffman codes, which have to be integer)
21:33:07 <Fiora> but they don't do anything smart on their own kinda
21:33:19 <Fiora> just like, with huffman codes, you have to build a huffman tree
21:33:34 <Fiora> so with arithmetic coding you need some algorithm to pick probabilities.
21:34:19 <elliott> so when you're doing more than bits (like say English words), do you just extend the alphabet beyond 0,1, or do you do something fancy where you decide the probability for bits following some other bits or something instead?
21:34:39 <Fiora> firstly I think it's possible to do a multi-symbol coder (like, split the range into more than 2 sections)
21:34:47 <Fiora> but I think those are less used because they're a lot more complicated
21:35:06 <Fiora> but yeah, I think that's what you do? it's called a 'context model', I think
21:35:23 <Fiora> a super crazy example are the PAQ compressors, they have like, neural net driven context mixing craziness
21:35:37 <elliott> it's sort of markov chainy
21:35:45 <Fiora> "context mixing" is basically a thing where you run a bunch of models simultaneously, and weight them based on how good they've been
21:36:03 <Fiora> it's like. continuous markov chains. or something
21:36:03 <kmc> markov cheney
21:36:14 <Fiora> I think that's where the "M" in LZMA comes from?
21:36:17 <fizzie> ais523: Come to think of it, and looking at the CBM ROM tape encoding, it could be that you do in fact get a rather messed-up signal, since it's based on lengths of square wave pulses -- with lengths in the 0.35 to 0.67 ms range -- while the lossy encodings generally take frames of like 26 ms and go all subband on that. You should consider actually investigating this.
21:36:51 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, I'm curious
21:36:58 <ais523> I'm not sure the results would be useful, but they'd be interesting
21:37:15 <Fiora> (I always think of "context mixing" as the compression variant of that thing that the netflix prize winners did)
21:37:28 <Fiora> (which was combine like a dozen different teams' algorithms and weight them together <.<)
21:37:40 <elliott> "I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE SQUARES" -- cpressey
21:37:54 -!- elliott has set topic: I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE SQUARES | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:38:26 <elliott> the little ones that make up all the images on your computer
21:39:17 <olsner> what happens to the images when you confuse the squares? :S
21:39:38 <fizzie> Fiora: That's how people win speech recognition contests, too. You take a dozen different systems and then stick it all into something like ROVER.
21:40:02 <elliott> fizzie: generic obligatory remark mocking speech recognition research, etc.
21:40:15 <fizzie> Fiora: Recognizer Output Voting Error Reduction, it's a semi-clever way of combining results.
21:41:29 <Bike> throw shit at it until it works: TSAIUIW
21:41:38 <fizzie> Fiora: You make a single lattice kind of a network of the joint results and then you mumble mumble rescore mumble voting mumble http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=659110
21:43:21 <fizzie> I think machine translation folks do the same thing, except with slightly different tricks.
21:43:52 <fizzie> Their variant is called MEMT, for Multi-Engine Machine Translation.
21:44:12 <elliott> that's not a very good acronym
21:45:29 <fizzie> elliott: Well, it does use METEOR (Metric for Evaluation of Translation with Explicit ORdering) as a component, does that help?
21:46:57 <Fiora> programmer acronyms -_-
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21:47:18 <elliott> those are speech recognition researchers
21:47:40 <fizzie> Hey now, don't lump those machine translation weirdoes together with us.
21:48:14 <nooodl> someone's 100% sure that the odds of rolling a 40 with two d20 dice is
21:48:43 <nooodl> No, for every combination of given permutations each dice is represented by 1/20 but only for non repeating combinations. Therefore, the chances of selecting a single combination from two dice is given by one out of the squared factorial of the possible permutations of a single die, which is 20.
21:48:43 <nooodl> Therefore, 1/(20!)2 for all possible outcomes.
21:48:43 <nooodl> EDIT: Forgot to mention that this is applicable for n<400 but n>16 for N+1 combinations, statistically speaking.
21:48:56 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELENE though scientists love doing that too XD
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21:49:05 <Fiora> a lunar spacecraft. acronym'd. SELENE. <.<
21:49:19 * Fiora likes its nickname, too
21:49:29 <Fiora> Though I don't think they backcronym'd the nickname.
21:49:49 <nooodl> and then someone explains it to him plain and simple, using 3-sided dice as an argument, and...
21:49:49 <Bike> oh, kaguya, of course
21:49:54 <nooodl> "No dude you're making a sampling error. Go back and do it again and you'll see what I'm talking about."
21:50:00 <elliott> ACRONYM Acronym Constructed Reversely Osomething Nsomething Ysomething Msomething
21:50:10 <fizzie> nooodl: Maybe it's some kind of a troll.
21:50:23 <ais523> nooodl: 3-sided dice are hard to build, though
21:50:39 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, you need to take a d6 and label it {1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3}.
21:50:59 <nooodl> i was gonna go with a d4 labeled {1, 2, 3, "roll again"}
21:51:24 <fizzie> nooodl: A d20 labeled with {1, 2, 3, "roll again", "roll again", ...} so that your games aren't over too soon.
21:52:05 <fizzie> I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial.
21:52:09 <fizzie> Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick.
21:52:14 <fizzie> I don't think that's 20!.
21:52:33 <kmc> fact(sphere)
21:52:42 <fizzie> elliott: "Richard Stallman doesn't always run an OS kernel, but when he does he prefers GNU/Hurd. He is... the most interesting hacker in the world. Stay free, my friends."
21:52:43 <Bike> damn we don't have shachaf here
21:52:48 <nooodl> i assume fact(1), fact(2) etc all exist
21:52:51 <Bike> for a fun fact
21:52:57 <fizzie> nooodl: fact(20) is not always the same fact, it seems.
21:53:00 <HackEgo> Baryalay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:53:01 <Bike> i feel so... deprived.
21:53:16 <fizzie> nooodl: Apparently it ignores all arguments.
21:53:18 <nooodl> when's the last time anyone used `welcome
21:53:25 <Bike> just now, elliott did it
21:53:30 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:53:31 <olsner> Bike: rainbow welcome deprives you?
21:53:35 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> ... <fizzie> I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. <fizzie> octave:1> fact(20) <fizzie> Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. <fizzie> I don't think that's 20!.
21:53:39 <HackEgo> 1035) <fizzie> ... <fizzie> I was thinking maybe octave's fact() function is the factorial. <fizzie> octave:1> fact(20) <fizzie> Richad Stallman's pinky finger is really a USB memory stick. <fizzie> I don't think that's 20!.
21:53:40 <Bike> `pastelog `welcome
21:53:46 <fizzie> elliott: http://sprunge.us/IfYW ALL FACTS
21:53:58 <elliott> ## Copyright (C) 2007 Stallmanfacts.com
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21:54:06 <elliott> "Richard Stallman doesn't need sudo. I will make him a sandwich anyway.";
21:54:25 <elliott> "sudo chown rms:gnu ~/base -R";
21:54:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2331
21:54:29 <nooodl> "\"RMS\" stands for \"RMS Makes Software\"";
21:54:31 <fizzie> These are... kind of bad.
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21:54:37 <Bike> do you think this is worse or better than wolfram
21:54:42 <Bike> i don't think i can decide
21:54:49 <olsner> "Richard Stallman doesn't need sudo. He'll just eat something off his foot instead of a sandwich."
21:55:42 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman won a Suduku that started with only one number in each line"
21:56:22 <fizzie> I don't know how all of these manage to be so... bad.
21:56:38 <nooodl> 2011-11-18.txt:22:42:49: <elliott> oerjan: wtf is `welcome and why does it exist
21:56:48 <Bike> Oh how the mighty have fallen
21:56:52 <olsner> is that the first mention?
21:57:14 <Bike> Wow, that expression is from 2 Samuel.
21:57:15 <nooodl> the first mention is... <Sgeo|web> `welcome
21:57:24 <Bike> sgeo's an innovator
21:59:00 <elliott> did someone break pastelog or something
21:59:03 <elliott> why does it give random lines without dates
21:59:08 <elliott> why doesn't it give the message for running out of lines
21:59:21 <Bike> `cat bin/pastelog
21:59:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
21:59:38 <olsner> that list of quotes is really quite bad
22:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> do you think this is worse or better than wolfram
22:00:09 <oerjan> <elliott> nobody was alive back then, ais523 <-- i recall my cousin played with magnets, and ruined the cassette with all the interesting programs for my dad's oric-1
22:00:24 <elliott> I seem to remember a radio station broadcasting a computer game or something
22:00:30 <elliott> maybe it was a cassette with a recording of it
22:00:36 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: they're both shitty is what i'm saying
22:00:41 <elliott> but like I remember the announcer saying and now we are going to broadcast a zx spectrum program
22:00:45 <elliott> [KREEEOORRRCSHCJSHJCSJCHS]
22:00:53 <elliott> maybe itw as a great dream
22:00:59 <fizzie> elliott: Did it make you feel awe?
22:01:08 <Phantom_Hoover> you are de-serifying wolfram's shittiness by comparing it to rms's milquetoast weirdness
22:01:23 <Bike> maybe elliott is a kid who had his personality overwritten with a ZX Spectrum program
22:02:09 <oerjan> <elliott> since tape isn't exactly the most reliable of formats <-- iirc it had a fast and a slow save/load format, and we never got the fast one to work.
22:02:11 <elliott> iirc stallman is actually an asshole beyond being awkward
22:02:24 <itsy> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>]
22:02:34 <Bike> oh right he did http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke
22:02:43 <itsy> What's the smallest know Brainfuck hello world?
22:02:58 <elliott> maybe it was the whining a bunch for someone saying "sorry I can't work on this emacs thing right now because we just had a baby" on the mailing list thing
22:03:10 -!- fungot has joined.
22:03:14 <fizzie> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>+[>>++>+>+>++<[+++++<]<-]>>>++.>-.<++++..+++.>>--.++<<<.---->.--<[-.>]
22:03:29 <Bike> maybe everyone is just terrible.
22:03:29 <nooodl> To help avoid misunderstandings of this kind in the future, since August I have changed the joke so that the Virgin of Emacs can be of either sex.
22:03:31 <Bike> are you terrible?
22:03:37 <olsner> how dare people have children when software remains unfree
22:03:46 <Bike> imo i'm terrible
22:04:05 <itsy> That Hello World is 84 instructions. What's the shortest known?
22:04:22 <elliott> there are two whole webpages about this happening at different times
22:04:24 <elliott> http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/text/rms-vs-doctor.html
22:04:27 <fizzie> That's a "hello world", not a "Hello World", though.
22:04:30 <elliott> http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms
22:04:51 <Bike> elliott: what the fuck.
22:05:47 <Fiora> geez. I didn't quite comprehend the magnitude of his self-absorbness
22:08:02 <Bike> Ahaha he does overpopulation shit
22:08:08 <elliott> at least nobody actually expects stallman to be well-adjusted in the first place
22:08:41 <Phantom_Hoover> can we not lose track of the fact that we are comparing him to wolfram here
22:09:00 <Bike> "Human overpopulation is the root cause of every environmental problem in this world" wow this is a deep vein of terrible
22:09:04 <fizzie> If I understood the above links correctly, I should point out here on channel that I did not have a baby today. Was this correct?
22:09:31 <Fiora> wow. he's. actually an antinatalist
22:09:53 <elliott> fizzie: you're married though, i thought married people did all the weird boring things like having babies
22:09:53 <Bike> malthusianism is so incredibly silly, argh
22:09:59 <oerjan> <Fiora> you totally can, but it's progressively less likely? and I think arithmetic coders have some thing to work around it <-- what i see is that you can do expansion when the range gets inside [0.25, 0.75), and keep a counter for how many times you've done that since you last actually wrote a bit. then when you get to actually write a bit, prepend count number of the opposite bit. i think.
22:10:17 <Fiora> oerjan: OHHHHH. right. I think I remember something to that effect
22:10:20 <Fiora> "bits outstanding" or something?
22:10:34 <Fiora> that makes much more sense, thanks
22:10:46 * Fiora mentally fixes the hole in her explanation
22:11:08 <fizzie> elliott: I suppose it correlates, like those pirates and global warming.
22:11:22 <elliott> it also correlates with you being really old!
22:11:39 <oerjan> * _append_ count opposite bits, i think.
22:11:58 <fizzie> Well, I'm not making any babies, I heard it would ruin the world.
22:12:05 <olsner> append to output before appending the rest of the bits to output?
22:12:50 <nooodl> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
22:13:06 <Fiora> and wow. the emacs thing. just. eeesh
22:13:18 <elliott> fizzie: would you rather ruin the world or statistics?
22:13:25 <elliott> I hear speech recognition uses a lot of the latter, but is useless in the former.
22:14:25 <elliott> You can find jokes about me by other people in stallmanfacts.com. However, if a joke describes any software as "open" or "closed", please vote it down, because that would give the wrong idea of what I stand for.
22:14:45 <elliott> Here's someone else's humor about me. The statements attributed to me are quoted out of context from my info packet for people organizing my speeches.
22:14:55 <elliott> ESR's favorite programming language: Objectivist C.
22:15:00 <elliott> haha even stallman makes fun of esr
22:16:53 -!- Baryalay has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:20:19 -!- itsy has left.
22:20:58 <elliott> well it's a link to someone else's joke
22:21:29 <fizzie> Oh no; stallmanfacts.com has, in fact, been taken over by a domain squatter.
22:21:47 <fizzie> Now the facts only live on in /usr/share/octave/3.6.2/m/miscellaneous/fact.m.
22:22:34 <elliott> do any of them mention open or closed
22:22:52 <fizzie> Not really in a "bad" way.
22:23:00 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman doesn't really believe in open software, because it's not free enough."
22:23:03 <fizzie> I mean, that's a fact.
22:23:15 <oerjan> <elliott> did someone break pastelog or something
22:23:18 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman, upon reading these facts, didn't laugh at all. Instead, he complained that he is being linked to that dirty \"open source\" software. He also asked it to be changed to \"free software\", in order to raise awareness for software freedom in our society."
22:23:23 <elliott> actually having a laughter seizure; dying; please help; stallmanfacts just too funny
22:23:36 <fizzie> That may or may not be a fact, but it's still not misleading.
22:23:39 <oerjan> <-- i used `pastelogs yesterday and it worked, maybe `pastelog has diverged?
22:23:46 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman does not contribute to open source projects; open source projects contribute to Richard Stallman, and then call themselves free software projects."
22:23:53 <fizzie> That's something I can't really describe.
22:24:34 <fizzie> There are no references to "closed" software, it's all just "non-free".
22:24:42 <fizzie> I suppose someone may have "fixed" the facts.
22:25:20 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman's computer has only two buttons. One is for guests."
22:25:24 <fizzie> Some of these are just bizarre.
22:26:11 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:26:21 <fizzie> Many of them do make fun of the "does not bathe" thing.
22:27:12 <fizzie> "Richard Stallman is licensed under GPL, so you can clone him and redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. For example a version that take a bath more often." "Richard Stallman does not take bath, for the hydroelectric company uses proprietary software." "Agent Smith loves Richard Stallman's scent."
22:28:05 <elliott> fizzie: why do both of those have missing "s"es
22:28:09 <elliott> take[s] a bath, take bath[s]
22:28:24 <olsner> the cloning thing actually sounds reasonable, but I doubt genetic engineering can control bathiness yet
22:28:49 <fizzie> elliott: Because the s was not free software enough.
22:28:55 <elliott> fizzie: you mean open source
22:29:10 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
22:29:14 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:31:07 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan: well it "worked" <-- i'm pretty sure it gave me the date, since i used it to look up the actual log page :P
22:32:11 <elliott> did you click the paste in question
22:32:15 <elliott> you will see the anomalous lines I was referring to
22:32:23 <elliott> like mostly the output was fine
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22:33:36 <oerjan> elliott: i'm talking about my yesterday `pastelogs
22:33:52 <elliott> well I don't know what you mean by the date
22:34:39 <oerjan> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/f90804fc6712/paste/paste.1592
22:34:48 <oerjan> the part before the .txt, hth
22:35:50 <elliott> oerjan: I feel like I must be expressing myself incredibly unclearly. again, did you click the pastelogs I did that lead to me saying it was broken? it too had dates. but it also had lines just out of nowhere with no date or name and not even a proper sentence, occasionally in-between those
22:37:03 <fizzie> It's like watching two people with no language in common.
22:37:28 * Bike gesticulates wildly, accidentally pokes elliott in the eye
22:37:39 <oerjan> elliott: yes. i'm looking at it now. what seems to happen is that lines containing weird\nick has turned the \n into an actual newline.
22:38:18 <oerjan> `run diff bin/pastelog bin/pastelogs
22:38:29 <oerjan> ok so there's no difference there
22:38:43 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
22:38:53 <oerjan> FreeFull: sounds like it
22:39:03 <elliott> `run diff- u bin/pastelog{,s}
22:39:04 <HackEgo> bash: diff-: command not found
22:39:07 <elliott> `run diff -u bin/pastelog{,s}
22:39:56 <oerjan> elliott: yes. the bug isn't new, it only showed up because the search hit a bunch of stuff with \n it it
22:40:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelogs
22:41:18 <fizzie> `run readlink bin/pastelogs # they're actually the same thing.
22:41:23 <oerjan> oh that one is a symbolic link
22:43:02 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/lines=\([$].*\)/lines="\1"/' bin/pastelog
22:43:16 <nooodl> pastelog will stop working in the year 10000 wow
22:43:36 <oerjan> that won't work because there's a " inside too
22:44:02 <oerjan> how do you escape that so it works?
22:44:22 <fizzie> Are you sure it's not just the echo "$lines" interpreting escapes by default?
22:44:40 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:44:45 <fizzie> Bash echo has a -E that disables them.
22:45:12 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:45:13 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
22:45:16 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:45:18 <fizzie> oerjan: But that's run as bin/sh.
22:45:25 <fizzie> oerjan: pastelog, I mean.
22:45:38 -!- carado_ has joined.
22:46:18 <fizzie> `run /bin/sh -c 'echo "foo\nbar"'
22:46:26 -!- augur has joined.
22:46:37 <fizzie> In fact, it's possible changing it to just /bin/bash might fix it.
22:47:11 <oerjan> `sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/pastelog
22:47:12 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
22:47:17 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1s/sh/bash/' bin/pastelog
22:47:43 <fizzie> NO WARRANTY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
22:47:55 <fizzie> Just thought I'd get that out.
22:48:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31610
22:48:21 <elliott> I guess we should stop using #!/bin/sh
22:48:46 <olsner> but not every system has bash
22:49:15 <olsner> don't you care about portability?
22:50:42 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:53:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:54:51 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
22:56:11 <oerjan> <elliott> it was about a dwarf fortress dwarf named after the DS9 bashir <-- ah now it makes all sense
22:57:57 <oerjan> <elliott> fizzie: i don't suppose you might consider doing something about this. getting a channel regular to leave because you told them to kill themselves is out of line. and this isn't the first time he's done it to shachaf
22:58:22 <elliott> oerjan: imo you need to start reading the logs backwards
22:58:23 -!- Bike_ has joined.
22:58:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:58:44 <elliott> SORRY FOR INTERRUPTING TYPING YOUR REPLY
22:58:57 <fizzie> oerjan: I did something already, I promised to type a note maybe.
22:59:28 <elliott> fizzie: don't you interrupt him too.
22:59:38 <oerjan> elliott: it's ok irssi has good enough history you can stop and restart typing lines
22:59:47 -!- augur has joined.
23:00:08 <oerjan> although now i shall have to see what fizzie did first
23:00:26 <olsner> elliott: I suggested he read all the lines at the same time to see both context and the followups
23:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> the current twee bbc competition show is the "Great British Sewing Bee"
23:00:42 <olsner> (he didn't want to do that, for some reason)
23:00:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:02:03 <oerjan> olsner: i bitch at my short term memory all the time, no point giving it _more_ reasons to fail me.
23:03:38 <olsner> just drop all the lines that don't fit in memory, they were probably not important anyway
23:04:16 <olsner> actually, just ignore anything that happens when you weren't here, and you will be much happier and ignoranter
23:04:51 <oerjan> not to mention have more time to surf the rest of the net
23:05:34 <oerjan> <fizzie> That counts, right? <-- yes, but the count decrements gradually
23:05:56 <fizzie> .noisiced doog a no snoitalutargnoC .sdrawkcab sgol eht daer ot detrats deedni evah ot mees uoy ,najreo ,olleH
23:06:18 <fizzie> (It's a secret message.)
23:06:33 * Koen_ is kinda freaked out by how easily he could read that
23:07:19 -!- shachaf has joined.
23:08:15 <pikhq_> FreeFull: Yes, my implementation of Mako is the one using SDL.
23:08:28 <pikhq_> It's also the ludicrously efficient one.
23:09:37 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:17:15 <oerjan> <elliott> perhaps I should change tack and make fizzie an admin instead. <-- good luck with that.
23:17:28 <elliott> you don't understand the power at my fingertips
23:20:38 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
23:21:46 <FreeFull> https://github.com/pikhq/cmako
23:22:38 -!- Bike has joined.
23:23:29 <shachaf> Bike: fun fact: the existence difficult monoids is equivalent to the axiom of choice
23:23:44 <fizzie> oerjan: I'd probably be as industrous a wiki admin as I am a diligent channel operator.
23:23:55 <shachaf> (I was informed that you wanted a fun fact from me.)
23:24:01 <FreeFull> /home/freefull/code/cmako/build-aux/missing: Unknown `--is-lightweight' option
23:24:32 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:25:39 <oerjan> shachaf: what's a ... oh.
23:26:51 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:27:33 <kmc> i like how the press doesn't even bother to explain filibustering and cloture anymore, they just say "you need 60 votes to pass a bill in the senate"
23:27:42 <kmc> and by "like" i mean, our government is terminally broken
23:30:10 <Bike> i our government is terminally broken how the press
23:30:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: a lot of reasons, that's one though
23:30:32 <Sgeo> Fun: Going back and forth between two possible approaches without distributed VC
23:30:41 <kmc> Sgeo: don't do it
23:30:48 <Sgeo> And not wanting to commit such nonsense publically
23:31:09 <kmc> use git-svn or something
23:31:24 <Fiora> svn diff > test1.diff; patch -p0 < test2.diff; repeating forever? <.<
23:31:31 * Fiora remembers doing that -_-
23:31:41 <oerjan> <boily> according to my trusty steed, I must be voiced. <-- you can ride cuttlefish?
23:31:48 <Sgeo> Meh. Both ideas are now represented in code to some extent.
23:31:51 <Sgeo> In the same codebase
23:32:04 <Sgeo> I need a shelve feature. Does git have shelve?
23:32:26 <kmc> i don't know what shelve is
23:32:30 <kmc> but there's git stash
23:33:17 <elliott> i think hg-svn also exists
23:33:25 <elliott> failing that, git-hg does, so by transitivity...
23:33:39 <kmc> you should run the same repo through git-hg, hg-svn, and git-svn over and over
23:33:39 <Bike> that sounds horrifying, elliott.
23:33:43 <kmc> until it gets hopelessly corrupted
23:33:50 <Bike> wait kmc made it horrifyinger
23:33:58 <kmc> i worked somewhere that had a few devs still using CVS, and we had to sync their changes to our git repo
23:33:59 <Bike> it's like translation party except it probably won't degenerate into sex jokes :(
23:34:01 <kmc> *that* was horrifying
23:34:16 <elliott> kmc: why didn't you force them to switch
23:34:23 <kmc> elliott: they made more money than us
23:34:25 <kmc> finance job
23:34:40 <elliott> kmc: so this is the true reason finance is horrifying
23:34:52 <kmc> a true reason
23:35:02 <kmc> elliott: what should i do with my life
23:35:15 <kmc> don't like finance, don't like web startupland
23:35:20 <Bike> do you think ten years ago those cvs-ing employees were complaining about people just throwing flat patches around
23:35:23 <kmc> i think i don't like big companies but i've never really worked for one
23:35:32 <kmc> Bike: maybe
23:35:38 <Bike> clearly you should go into research i hear being a postdoc is Awesome
23:35:44 <kmc> throwing flat patches around is arguable better than CVS
23:35:49 <kmc> that's what the linux kernel people believe anyway
23:35:51 <elliott> kmc: uh are you able to improve the lives of the disadvantaged without going insane or getting incredibly depressed
23:36:00 <kmc> elliott: how would i do it though
23:36:05 <elliott> if you're looking for shoulds that's probably the blanket one
23:36:15 <Sgeo> I've thrown flat patches around
23:36:22 <kmc> i thought i would do it by working for a web startup and getting ridiculous bubble money and giving it away
23:36:25 <elliott> that of course very few people are likely to actually act on (including me, though I would probably go insane and get incredibly depressed)
23:36:28 <kmc> but it didn't work out
23:36:42 <Bike> maybe you could start a startup for helping disadvantaged people start startups
23:36:46 <elliott> kmc: maybe you could speculate bitcoins
23:36:51 <elliott> Bike: isn't that what kiva is
23:36:57 <kmc> i asked for more money so i could give it away, and they fired me instead
23:36:59 <Bike> yes darn scopped
23:37:00 <kmc> (over simplification)
23:37:21 <elliott> asking for more money at a startup sounds
23:37:29 <Bike> i dunno what's a way to help people. logistics. tell people the food bank doesn't need more cranberry sauce jesus christ donate laundry detergent instead everybody needs it
23:37:49 <kmc> i just gave them money
23:38:05 <kmc> maybe i should develop a process for fermenting cranberry sauce into cheap liquor
23:38:15 <Bike> i think we still have cranberry sauce from thanksgiving and we've been throwing two into every fucking basket
23:38:16 <elliott> kmc: you could overthrow capitalism and become a dictator
23:38:20 <elliott> but this time be good instead of evil
23:38:27 <kmc> elliott: heh
23:38:46 <Bike> kmc should make the new cybersyn
23:38:53 <Bike> so a socialist government can fuck over striking workers
23:38:54 <Sgeo> Money might be a better thing to donate instead of food because even if it's a food bank they can use the money to buy whatever food is needed and not whatever happens to be given
23:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> if the guys in the year above me could make booze with some canned fruit they found in the home economics department you can make it with cranberry sauce
23:39:09 <kmc> Bike: i will build THATCHERBOT 50,000
23:39:30 <elliott> kmc: perhaps find something you enjoy and then give away some of the money to alleviate your guilt despite the fact that it's much less than you theoretically could give away if you were satisfied with being less comfortable
23:39:32 <Bike> seriously though it's "hilarious" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
23:39:37 <kmc> yeah I've seen it
23:39:40 <Bike> greatest success of robosocialism: strikebreaking
23:39:45 <kmc> p. cool idea, little to no validation that it would work
23:40:06 <kmc> if I were dictator I would probably institute democratic futarchy just to see what happens
23:40:10 <kmc> vote on values, bet on outcomes!
23:40:13 <Bike> i guess nowadays they call that sort of thing operations research
23:40:32 <kmc> Bike: i'll buy the most expensive Oracle ERP software and use it to run my country
23:40:36 <elliott> futarchy strikes me as a bad idea
23:40:44 <Bike> is that "erotic roleplay" kmc
23:40:48 <kmc> "vote on values, bet on outcomes!" has the advantage of fitting nicely on a sign or in a chant
23:40:55 <kmc> Bike: yep it's where oracle makes most of their money
23:40:56 <Bike> i have no idea what it means
23:40:59 <Bike> so, a nice slogan
23:41:04 <kmc> my slogan?
23:41:19 <Bike> "E-Business Suite", ok
23:41:24 <kmc> it means you use normal democratic methods to establish a socially agreed upon utility function
23:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> in my mind kmc's ideal state is not a place i want to live in
23:41:33 <Bike> "Within the overall rubric of Oracle Applications - Apps,[1] Oracle Corporation's E-Business Suite (also known as Applications/Apps or EB-Suite/EBS) consists of a collection of enterprise resource planning (ERP), customer relationship management (CRM), and supply-chain management (SCM) computer applications either developed or acquired by Oracle" oh so it is related
23:41:40 <kmc> then you use prediction markets to decide the specific policies that should be pursued to fulfill that utility function
23:41:44 * Bike hacks at jargon with a machete
23:42:28 <kmc> the idea is that the market is better at figuring out what will 'work', but has a cruel and cold idea of what it wants, so the proper role of government is to make the market want 'good' things
23:42:29 <Bike> prediction markets...
23:42:37 <Bike> why is this called "futarchy"
23:42:51 <Bike> oh, good, i was expecting "it's the government of the future"
23:43:05 <kmc> 'It was named by the New York Times as a buzzword of 2008'
23:43:16 <elliott> robin hanson is kind of... robin hanson
23:43:22 <kmc> i've heard that
23:43:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> so kmc you know how you mock people who get cs degrees and realise they can totally fix the world
23:44:15 <Bike> well, at least he's citing the system of some actual (if possibly crazy) economist instead of making shit up
23:44:58 <Bike> i think economics stopped making sense to me around the time i read a paper about how the market being efficient would imply P=NP
23:45:49 <hagb4rd> well please, go ahead and fix it!
23:46:07 <Bike> what, economics?
23:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, seems to me the same argument could be applied to, like objectivists.
23:46:15 <elliott> kmc: a thought: you are unlikely to figure out how to better the world better than people who have already tried to figure out how to better the world
23:46:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah
23:46:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: that was sort of the idea
23:46:29 <elliott> so you could figure out what they do and do that instead. except probably their methods involve being rich
23:46:36 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: since libertarians usually believe the market is efficient because they know shit-all
23:46:38 <kmc> also I'm bullshitting and don't seriously claim that I should be put in charge to institute futarchy
23:46:48 <kmc> i said "just to see what happens"
23:46:59 <Bike> kmc for indecisive president
23:47:04 <kmc> elliott: yeah, that was my previous plan, make lots of money and give it to those people
23:47:13 <elliott> kmc: if you are asking a random lazy 17-year-old on IRC what to do with your life you've probably hit rock bottom
23:47:21 <elliott> so do absolutely anything else and your life will improve!!
23:47:24 <kmc> maybe I should just find a finance company that doesn't suck
23:47:25 <kmc> elliott: haha
23:47:28 <kmc> i thought you were 18 now
23:47:35 <kmc> when is elliott day
23:48:02 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: you actually do things though
23:48:02 <kmc> i feel like I went from being usually the youngest person in a room to usually the oldest without any intermediate phase
23:48:33 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you have that mathematics degree yet
23:48:34 <Fiora> I woke up one day and I was like. not 18 anymore and suddenly old
23:48:37 <hagb4rd> <elliott>august 22 <-- is that your birthday?
23:48:46 <elliott> Fiora: imo 18 is pretty old
23:49:05 <Fiora> I think it was around the time I was doing my taxes ;-;
23:49:13 <elliott> my grey hairs conceal a head of wrinkles and soon i will evaporate into dust
23:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember turning 18 because i spent most of that day sitting in a car driving to coventry
23:49:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the horrors of aging
23:50:08 <Phantom_Hoover> and most of that evening trying not to think about my kitchenware
23:50:11 <Fiora> not too much longer until christmas cake
23:50:20 <elliott> is this what i will be like when i turn 18
23:50:27 <elliott> driving to coventry... thinking about kitchenware...
23:50:44 <Bike> kmc: apropos of nothing maybe you could try reading some economist like amartya sen? he got an econ nobel and most of his work is on poor people and starvation
23:51:00 -!- c00kiemon5ter has left.
23:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> you know, my life has been lacking in "sent to coventry" jokes of late
23:51:09 <elliott> Poor People & The Starvation Thereof: A Treatise
23:51:37 <Bike> elliott: "Poverty and Famines : An Essay on Entitlements and Deprivation"
23:51:44 <elliott> Bike: see I basically nailed it
23:52:22 <Bike> tackles such uplifting subjects as the bengal famine (three million dead) and the holodomor (another three million dead) (both mostly from human error)
23:52:45 <kmc> i thought the latter was more from stalin not giving a shit about ukraine
23:52:52 <elliott> that sounds like human error
23:53:06 <elliott> stalin error: he wasn't a very nice person
23:53:11 <Bike> yeah what he said
23:53:15 <hagb4rd> kmc: thats extactly what i had to think about
23:53:27 <Bike> it's not like the british authorities much cared about bengal either
23:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> was the bengal famine the one churchill was evil about
23:53:41 <Bike> did you know: wikipedia has an article on famines in british india, specifically
23:53:47 <Bike> fun place fun times
23:53:48 <elliott> man I knew churchill had to be evil
23:54:00 <elliott> everyone likes him way too much and he sounded kind of like a jerk so i was suspicious
23:54:09 <Bike> oh he was definitely a jerk
23:54:16 <elliott> I guess selling car insurance is pretty evil to start with [BRITISH LAUGH TRACK]
23:54:26 <hagb4rd> seen a documentary lastly..it's called "soviet story"..there is a lot of shocking facts that are mostly unknown to the public (or at least they're not very popular)
23:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the house my mum was born in was (formerly) owned by churchill
23:54:42 <elliott> come on. that was good. Phantom_Hoover??
23:54:47 <elliott> do they have those ads in scotland
23:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> he inherited, like, half the antrim coast from his aunt
23:54:55 <Bike> churchill also wrote a book about riding around in pakistan
23:55:02 <Bike> hagb4rd: the holodomor?
23:55:19 <elliott> ok i have to say it. holodomor just sounds like a cross between holocaust and mordor
23:55:32 <Bike> the holodomor is the famine in the ukraine in the 30s.
23:55:43 <Bike> elliott: it's the same "holo" in "holocaust", good job
23:55:51 <Bike> tip: that means "death"
23:55:51 <elliott> it's the kind of name you should give the worst possible thing
23:56:10 <elliott> it also sounds kind of like dumbledore
23:56:43 <elliott> i'm not saying dumbledore, hitler and sauron conspired to cause a famine in ukraine, but...
23:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, yeah holocaust is whole-burnt, you UNEDUCATED FUCK
23:56:49 <elliott> i'm saying it's not IMPOSSIBLE
23:57:08 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: ok well "holodomor" is "wholly starved" then
23:57:11 <hagb4rd> its ironic the export of grain reached its height the same years
23:57:12 <Bike> very straightforward.
23:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, and you have a go at me for a couple of ill-advised suicide jokes
23:57:29 <elliott> he literally just said that
23:57:33 <elliott> by he i mean Phantom_Hoover
23:57:38 <Bike> hagb4rd: it's not ironic, similar things happened in bengal and ireland and such, Sen goes over this stuff
23:57:59 <Bike> hagb4rd: also if you want Shitty Soviet Things i highly recommend looking up Operation Lentil
23:58:04 <hagb4rd> it was absolutely inteded by stalin
23:58:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i know, right?
23:59:03 <elliott> there were TWO FUCKING OPERATION LENTILS........
23:59:07 <elliott> there's a disambiguation page
23:59:31 <Bike> uncreative military planners hth
00:00:31 <Bike> even bigger, in some parts
00:00:33 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:00:41 <elliott> the joke was comparing everything to the size of wales guys
00:00:52 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you know about: cpos
00:01:39 <Bike> honestly siberia is basically too big for me to comprehend
00:01:46 <Bike> sakha by itself is about as big as india
00:01:54 <Bike> which has like four billion people in it
00:02:08 <Bike> no i've been to america it's not that big
00:02:26 <hagb4rd> it's just the ass of the world
00:02:30 <Bike> it's mostly alaska though
00:02:32 <elliott> everything bigger than the UK is huge
00:02:36 <elliott> no i wasn't even counting alaska
00:02:58 <Bike> i'm pretty sure the british empire at greatest extent was bigger than the US is now...
00:03:04 <Bike> of course that probably /includes/ parts of the us
00:03:32 <hagb4rd> british empire was biggest once iirc
00:03:49 <elliott> for a start those didn't really count as places, it was just sort of adding to the list of bragging rights
00:04:05 <elliott> for a second I WAS BORN IN 1995 OK
00:04:27 <Bike> oh hey it didn't include any US, except maybe that tiny part of Canada near Minnesota
00:04:33 <Bike> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Iq8P_KCMf6U/SXfRqFbWDBI/AAAAAAAAAB0/0-eXe_Orw_o/s400/british+empire+greatest+extent.png
00:05:09 <elliott> it's ok i got my magnifying glass out
00:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, wait was the british empire ever actually part of the UK]
00:13:58 <Fiora> http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg I'm reminded of this image
00:14:05 <Fiora> (white: countries britain did not invade)
00:14:26 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the UK is confusing enough now, do i really have to bother about the past too
00:15:03 <Bike> Fiora: when did britain invade, like, ethiopia
00:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> the confusion now is because of the long and messy process of dismantling the empire
00:15:35 <Bike> russia would have been the civil war i suppose
00:16:40 <Bike> indonesia... during malaysia apparently
00:17:30 <elliott> Fiora: damn, we really missed out on sweden.
00:17:36 <Bike> portugal, like, the peninsular war?
00:18:31 <Bike> yeah i can't tell when portugal was invaded you have a treaty in force from fucking 1373
00:19:06 <kmc> Fiora: great map :)
00:19:31 <kmc> when did the UK invade norway
00:19:46 <Bike> yeah maybe during wwii
00:20:05 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Campaign ah yep
00:20:16 <Bike> this is obviously a stretchy definition of "invade", but hey
00:21:00 <kmc> it's also confusing because modern borders
00:21:14 <kmc> like... canada
00:21:24 <Bike> it's not like britain invaded south sudan
00:21:48 <kmc> this map is too old to have south sudan i think
00:22:08 <hagb4rd> war on terror wasn't found yet
00:22:21 <kmc> does this count being given a protectorate as 'invading'
00:22:34 <Bike> it counts pretty much everything as invading, near as i can tell
00:23:39 <hagb4rd> at least if there is no uno-policy
00:23:57 <Bike> i mean, it's good for rhetorical points, not so much for accuracy
00:24:21 <Fiora> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
00:24:25 <Fiora> that's the article, I think
00:24:39 <kmc> now adding "so look out Luxembourg" to the end of all headlines
00:24:48 <Bike> noooo my native luxembourg :(
00:25:15 <Fiora> ah, so it includes everything that has had british military presence, or privateers/pirates/armed explorers operating with the approval of their government
00:26:00 <Bike> "new research"
00:26:29 <Bike> "fuck, we DID invade the maldives that one time, didn't we'
00:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> "new scans have detected british soldiers in 9 out of 10 countries"
00:26:55 <Bike> wait this map is new enough to have south sudan
00:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> there was a guy in my school whose family was from sudan and another who was from algeria
00:28:17 <Fiora> Bike: so like I was reading about the south sea bubble and /wooooow/
00:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> and the latter was gloating to the former about how he was now from the largest african country
00:28:31 <Fiora> It's like, financial scam stuff from today, 300 years ago
00:28:37 <Bike> Fiora: the what
00:28:57 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Company
00:29:00 <kmc> remember the guy that made up a fake island and sold people shares of it
00:29:07 <Fiora> a company basically created to pawn off the debt of the british government
00:29:17 <Bike> hm i don't think the UK ever invaded east timor per se. fucked it over, yes, but at a distance
00:29:29 <Fiora> and they gave it resource/trade rights for a region of the world that seemed valuable, but actually wasn't, because the spanish owned it and they were insanely restricted
00:29:41 <Fiora> and they gave out tons of shares, bribed people, did tons of marketing and promotion, and the share prices soared 1000%
00:29:54 <Bike> Fiora: it's beyond me how you come up with a plan like "let's make a company and give it a monopoly over a continent"
00:30:03 <Fiora> resulting in an economic crash as the bubble popped and thousands of people went bankrupt and ruined countless british royalty
00:30:24 <Fiora> (and countless non-royalty too)
00:30:29 <elliott> The Governor and Company of the merchants of Great Britain, trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for the encouragement of fishing
00:30:37 <Bike> i love fishing
00:30:51 <elliott> i wonder who first came up with the idea of naming things short enough that people will actually remember them
00:30:52 <Fiora> it was like, everything. financial scam artists, politicians trying to pawn off debt, politicians being bribed, cheesy financial constructions
00:30:57 <Bike> TGaCotMoGBTttSSaOPoAaftEoF for short
00:31:12 <elliott> realised that you don't have to explain literally everything about a thing in its name
00:31:29 -!- augur has joined.
00:31:31 <Bike> have you ever tried counting the british royalty?
00:31:32 <Fiora> sorry, I mean aristocracy I guess to be more precise
00:31:41 <Fiora> rich titled people <.<
00:31:45 <Bike> pretty sure i couldn't count them
00:31:59 <Bike> "The Bubble Act, which forbade the creation of joint-stock companies without royal charter, was promoted by the South Sea company itself before its collapse" nice
00:32:16 <Bike> i also like the name there
00:32:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm pretty sure the cardinality of the royals is at most aleph null
00:32:33 <Bike> R v Cawood (1724) 2 Ld. Raym. 1361, the only prosecution brought under the Act which, according to L.C.B. Gower, (Principles of Modern Company Law, 4th Ed., 31) "decided nothing of importance".
00:32:45 <Fiora> there's so many things they did that basically feel amazingly deja-vuish
00:32:52 <Fiora> like, the whole thing feels like it's actually a financial scam from 2008 or something
00:32:58 <Fiora> except, like, with some bit about south america
00:33:01 <Bike> did they cite an economics paper that turned out to be largely made up
00:33:02 <shachaf> are we playing ask elliott what to do with my life
00:33:13 <shachaf> elliott: waht should i do with my life
00:33:24 <elliott> shachaf: discover uppercase letters
00:33:34 <Fiora> "A resolution was proposed in parliament that bankers be tied up in sacks filled with snakes and tipped into the murky Thames."
00:33:35 <shachaf> elliott: uppercase letters are stupid
00:33:39 <Bike> «The most commercially significant aspect of the company's monopoly trading rights to the Spanish empire was the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht's slave-trading 'Asiento', which granted the exclusive right to sell slaves in all of the American colonies. The Asiento set a quota of selling 4800 people into slavery per year»
00:33:44 <Bike> europe is fuck
00:33:52 <shachaf> elliott: what's the point of having two equivalent sets of letters
00:34:04 <shachaf> most of which look completely different
00:34:06 <Bike> "during the course of 96 voyages in twenty-five years, the South Sea Company purchased 34,000 slaves of whom 30,000 survived the voyages across the Atlantic"
00:34:12 <shachaf> where you take a letter from one set if it's at the beginning of a sentence and/or name
00:34:20 <Fiora> Bike: the best part was how the import duties on slaves were actually so high that the "trading rights" weren't even worth anything
00:34:21 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: wh
00:34:30 <Fiora> it was like, a whole thing constructed to look valuable but not actually be valuable
00:34:36 <shachaf> kmc: what should i do with my life
00:35:03 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: lower bound, looks like
00:35:14 <Bike> "Disputes connected with it led to the War of Jenkins' Ear (1739)." hey i forgot about the best war ever
00:35:19 <elliott> i like how it just casually implies literally four thousand slaves died travelling
00:35:20 <Fiora> shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:35:35 <Fiora> if I had to guess the mortality rate among non-slaves was probably pretty high too at sea <.<
00:35:37 <Bike> elliott: "In other words, approximately 11% of humans transported as slaves died in transport. This was a relatively low mortality rate on the Middle Crossing"
00:35:54 <Fiora> if anything I would be almost unsurprised if fewer slaves died than seamen >_<
00:35:55 <elliott> south sea company, high quality slave trade
00:35:56 <Bike> protip slavery sucked
00:36:00 <Fiora> because the salves were more valuable
00:36:23 <Bike> Fiora: the slaves were still in shitty(ier) cargo hold conditions, though
00:36:25 <Fiora> and the british navy just, like, ""impressed"" people. or something
00:36:34 <Fiora> (worst euphemism ever)
00:36:36 <Bike> i'm sure you've seen the diagrams of slave holds
00:36:46 <hagb4rd> `addquote <Fiora>shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:37:00 <HackEgo> 1036) <Fiora>shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:37:15 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:African_slave_trade.png it's kind of pretty sad how little we know about precolonial africa :/
00:37:42 <Bike> especially the parts not directly relevant to slave traders
00:38:00 <kmc> shachaf: i don't know, what are you doing now?
00:38:14 <Bike> «In 1807, the UK Parliament passed the Bill that abolished the trading of slaves. The King of Bonny (now in Nigeria) was horrified at the conclusion of the practice: "We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by God himself."»
00:38:30 <elliott> `run sed -i '1036s/>/> /' quotes
00:38:46 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i'm pretty sure the cardinality of the royals is at most aleph null <-- now now, they could be fractally distributed
00:39:28 <Bike> " King Jaja of Opobo, a former slave himself, completely refused to do business with slavers" hm not bad
00:40:14 <Bike> but then the brits invaded and killed him. thx
00:40:24 <Fiora> "the east, as Jaja declared himself as the middle-man in palm Oil trading, thus asking them to stop trading directly with the European. This resulted in a war (Ikot Udo Obong War) between Jaja and the Annang and Ibuno people"
00:40:28 <Fiora> "In 1887, he was deceived when he was told to go and negotiate with the Queen of England by the British and sent on exile to Saint Vincent in the West Indies."
00:40:53 <shachaf> kmc: "nothing" to a first approximation
00:42:03 <Bike> Fiora: i think i need a doll of niall ferguson to punch when i read these things
00:42:23 <HackEgo> 1036) <Fiora> shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
00:42:47 <shachaf> i move to `run sed -i '1036s/shachaf: //' quotes
00:42:58 <augur> Phantom_Hoover! :o
00:43:39 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: a conservative historian. "The 19th-century empire undeniably pioneered free trade, free capital movements and, with the abolition of slavery, free labour. " etc
00:44:26 <tromp_> you mean niels ferguson?
00:45:02 <Bike> relatedly i just found a "Politically Incorrect Guide" to the british empire
00:45:23 <Phantom_Hoover> he's married to a former editor of the daily mail apparently
00:45:28 <Bike> advertising such unknown facts on the cover as that they ended the slave trade and fought nazis once!!
00:45:37 <Bike> they stood alone
00:48:57 <Bike> There's a lot of subnational kingdoms in African countries, especially the west I think.
00:49:17 <Fiora> shachaf: I hope the suggestion isn't too terrible
00:49:52 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: i note that niall ferguson is a scotsman who has essentially dedicated his life to making the english look good
00:50:14 <Bike> what do you think he thinks of the scottish excursion in panama
00:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd have to ask him, i don't want to go anywhere near such a twisted mindset
00:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile meanwhile: christ, timothy mcveigh was annoying
00:51:22 <Bike> "Iceland, invaded in 1940 by the British after the neutral nation refused to enter the war on the Allies side" er what
00:51:32 <Bike> what, the bomber?
00:51:35 <elliott> holy shit it's raining a lot
00:51:47 <elliott> we should have invaded switzerland too
00:51:52 <elliott> they're like 10x more annoying than iceland imo
00:52:06 <Bike> the US semi-accidentally bombed them a few times
00:52:18 <elliott> "but we still hate you..."
00:52:54 <Bike> "Initial British aims were to destroy all landing grounds (blue) and secure key harbours (red). Due to transportation problems it was more than a week before troops arrived in the north of the country." that must have been an awkward week
00:53:35 <Bike> "American forces relieved the British a year later, although their country was still officially a non-belligerent. " this is so dumb. how is everything about this so dumb
00:53:49 <Bike> "British: 1 killed (suicide)"
00:54:54 <Bike> "Much of the operational planning was conducted en route. The force was supplied with few maps, most of poor quality, with one of them having been drawn from memory. No one in the expedition was fully fluent in the Icelandic language"
00:55:54 <Bike> "On 3 May 1940, the 2nd Royal Marine Battalion in Bisley, Surrey, received orders from London to be ready to move on two hours notice for an unknown destination. The battalion had only been activated the month before." is this even real
00:56:10 <Bike> let's just send our least competent marines
00:56:13 <Bike> to invade the country.
00:56:18 <shachaf> `run sed -i '1036s/shachaf: //' quotes
00:57:07 <Bike> bahaha they sent a dispatch in plaintext so they all knew they were going to iceland despite it being super secret
00:57:34 <Bike> "One of the newly recruited marines committed suicide en route. The voyage was otherwise uneventful."
00:57:51 <elliott> Bike: are we sure this wasn't just an elaborate plan to get rid of the most useless team
00:58:13 <elliott> "oh yeah, you're going to a really remote place, uh... iceland. it's iceland. here's a map I drew"
00:58:41 <Bike> they flew a recon plane over reykjavik before they landed
00:58:47 <Bike> iceland had no planes at the time. STEALTH
00:59:25 <elliott> did iceland even have like
00:59:58 <Bike> Uncomfortable with the crowd, Consul Shepherd turned to the Icelandic police. "Would you mind ... getting the crowd to stand back a bit, so that the soldiers can get off the destroyer?" he asked. "Certainly," came the reply.
01:00:05 <Bike> elliott: phantom hoover's got it.
01:00:23 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Iceland_Export_Treemap.jpg wooow
01:00:32 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: come on you have to know about cpos
01:00:35 <Bike> One Icelander snatched a rifle from a marine and stuffed a cigarette in it. He then threw it back to the marine and told him to be careful with it.
01:00:39 <kmc> these treemaps are the best
01:00:51 <kmc> and Phantom_Hoover has it right
01:00:57 <kmc> the brits invaded iceland so the germans couldn't
01:01:05 <kmc> and the icelanders were more or less fine with this, at least as I heard
01:01:06 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: complete partial orders!!
01:01:08 <Bike> advanced military strategy there
01:01:22 <Bike> Fiora: aircraft, spaceships, and launch vehicles
01:01:29 <elliott> okay but why would the germans invade iceland. why would anyone invade iceland
01:01:32 <kmc> where's EVE Online in this map
01:01:38 <Fiora> kmc: I think it's only physical products
01:01:39 <kmc> it is a few % of their economy
01:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> if the germans invaded iceland they would use them as breeding stock for an army of aryan supermen
01:01:51 <Fiora> otherwise you'd include, like, financial services and stuff I guess
01:01:52 <Bike> elliott: well they already invaded norway
01:01:54 <elliott> 12% orthopedic appliances, including crutches......
01:01:56 <Fiora> ... which I imagine would be a lot less after 2008 <.<
01:02:03 <Bike> the germans were just invading everything
01:02:09 <hagb4rd> i wonder why they don't export fish
01:02:10 <Fiora> I'm guessing a lot of the thihngs on that chart are literally like, one company
01:02:15 <Fiora> because iceland is 300,000 people or so
01:02:15 <Bike> and the brits were all SHIT let's get in on this
01:02:21 <kmc> hagb4rd: fish are a big component of that chart...
01:02:23 <kmc> look at the top
01:02:24 <elliott> iceland is sort of the best
01:02:27 <elliott> it's like a little toy company
01:02:32 <kmc> <3 iceland, I should go back
01:02:37 <Bike> btw this is apparently the only time iceland has been invaded by anything
01:02:44 <Bike> also: this is how iceland became independent
01:02:51 <Bike> it was part of denmark but denmark got nazi'd
01:02:55 <kmc> Bike: oh man googling 'iceland' is always a good idea
01:02:56 <kmc> http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-17/in-iceland-an-app-to-warn-if-your-hookup-is-a-relative
01:02:59 <Sgeo> I may need to buy a good laptop ASAP
01:03:05 <elliott> i just get the feeling that everyone in iceland must be a really nice person
01:03:05 <Bike> and the iceland government was like "well, nvm that king dude, let's just chill on our own"
01:03:09 <elliott> because how could you not be
01:03:09 <kmc> Sgeo: want recommendations? price range?
01:03:28 <shachaf> i want both recommendations and a price range plz
01:03:35 <Fiora> iceland is just like the most adorable country
01:03:37 <Sgeo> I think I'll just buy the same model that I'm borrowing from Apex
01:03:51 <Bike> The app includes an “incest-prevention alarm,” says Arnar Freyr Adalsteinsson, one of the developers.
01:03:59 <elliott> i love the idea of a country being so small you have to constantly worry about incest
01:04:18 <elliott> The app, called IslendingaApp—yes, Iceland App
01:04:24 <elliott> because iceland is too small to need more than one app
01:04:27 <Bike> the only app you ever need in iceland
01:04:34 <Sgeo> Needs to be able to run Eclipse (or other good Java IDE, but at this point I'm used to Eclipse) smoothly, along with multiple Spring MVC applications and AngularJS pages
01:04:46 <Bike> The British forces began their operations in Reykjavík by posting a guard at the post office and attaching a flier to the door. The flier explained in broken Icelandic that British forces were occupying the city and asked for cooperation in dealing with local Germans.
01:04:56 <Bike> good notification of invasion
01:05:00 <kmc> do you know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlpiri_people#Kinship
01:05:17 <Bike> ooh i love kinship systems
01:05:22 <kmc> tldr: the Warlpiri have a complicated notion of kinship which corresponds to the order 8 dihedral group
01:05:34 <elliott> and declared he was taking over like a small british island? he lived there
01:05:39 <Bike> kmc: beautiful
01:05:40 <elliott> and a policeman came up to him and he was sitting on a bench
01:05:43 <elliott> and asked him to put down the gun
01:05:50 <Bike> also i have no idea what this says
01:05:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: do you know this
01:05:59 <Bike> like i've seen kinship diagrams but... this isn't one
01:06:06 <kmc> found this by googling 'dihedral group incest'
01:06:11 <kmc> best search ever
01:06:15 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: great, find me a link
01:06:30 <Jafet> Is this what they mean by group action
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01:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sark#One-person_invasion_attempt
01:06:42 <Bike> okay i GIS'd "warlpiri kinship" and i got a bunch of matrices?? help
01:06:45 <elliott> kmc: note to self: being a Warlpiri is way too much work
01:06:56 <elliott> okay everybody click Phantom_Hoover's link
01:07:03 <Bike> https://www.callmedrrob.com/wp-content/uploads/Advanced/Warlpiri/MotherAndFather.jpg i'm sorry are those kets
01:07:23 <kmc> i found this http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/3.2/fig1.gif
01:07:41 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: it's all fun and games until you shoot a cop
01:07:48 <Bike> television's hermeunetic circles
01:07:58 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, in this case he would then have shot all the cops
01:08:10 <Bike> " Splitting the Atom of Kinship: Towards an understanding of the symbolic economy of the Warlpiri fire ceremony"
01:08:16 <elliott> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/lost-world-the-last-days-of-feudal-sark-421545.html
01:08:20 <elliott> this probably has a better version of the same story
01:08:28 <elliott> and an image of... something
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01:08:44 <Bike> personally i like how kinship is so crazy anthropologists just use series of letters
01:08:44 <Fiora> "The eight subsections are interrelated in a pattern known in group theory as the order 8 dihedral group, D4."
01:08:50 -!- shachaf has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
01:08:52 <Bike> you don't say cousin you say father's sister's daughter
01:08:55 <hagb4rd> the guys at sealand had these m60 brownings once
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01:08:56 -!- shachaf_ has joined.
01:08:59 <Bike> which is like... FZD
01:09:05 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf.
01:09:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:09:47 <Bike> "The U.S. Navy remained at Naval Air Station Keflavik until 2006." ?????
01:10:00 <Bike> elliott: "Although the British action was to forestall any risk of a German invasion, none had been planned. However, after the British invasion, the Germans prepared a plan to intervene,"
01:10:16 <elliott> "wait the brits want iceland??? it must be good"
01:10:34 <Bike> apparently it went about as well as operation sealion, which is the best naval invasion in history if you didn't know
01:11:40 <elliott> To the deafening sound of no traffic - transport on Sark is restricted to tractors, bicycles and horse and cart
01:11:45 <Bike> "The 40,000 US marines stationed in Iceland outnumbered all adult men in Iceland at the time."
01:11:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what is even with sark
01:12:16 <Fiora> "The guns started to fire in the second week of August 1940 and were not silenced until September 1944. They caused 3,059 alerts, 216 civilian deaths, and damage to 10,056 premises in the Dover area and much damage to shipping – perhaps the worst direct consequences of the plan outside the Battle of Britain, and the only part that worked."
01:12:24 <oerjan> <elliott> okay but why would the germans invade iceland. why would anyone invade iceland <-- for the same reason they invaded norway, lots of coast line with direct access to the atlantic.
01:12:32 <elliott> At the end of The Avenue there's a two-cell jail, more accustomed to holding tourists without a bed for the night than criminals. It is empty. There was a break-in at Sark's only jewellers, Rang, last summer, but it was all rather inept; the drunken offender left the island's voluntary policeman a series of clues, not least the string of jewels trailing back to his hotel.
01:12:34 <Bike> There was large-scale interaction between young Icelandic women and soldiers, which came to be known as Ástandið ("the condition" or "situation") in Icelandic.
01:12:44 <elliott> guys sark is literally a comedy
01:12:58 <Bike> Fiora: you got to the part about going over the channel on barges with no air support, right
01:13:32 <Fiora> Bike: it was interesting how like, the air force was convinced they were not enough to defend an invasion, without naval superiority
01:13:55 <Fiora> and then like, ~2-3 years later, the exact opposite happened?
01:14:07 <Bike> maybe the air force just wanted more planes
01:14:15 <elliott> At such moments, a Sarkee would be well within his rights to invoke the ancient statute book and sound the Clameur de Haro. An islander who feels he has been wronged or assaulted in some way can drop to one knee, throw his hat to the ground, recite the Lord's Prayer in Norman French and then say: "Haro, haro, haro! A mon aide mon Prince, on me fait tort!" (Help me, my prince, someone does me wrong). The assailant must immediately cease what he is do
01:14:22 <elliott> It would have been wonderful to see Dermot use the "Haro", but it was unlikely; the custom was last enacted in Sark in 1970, during a dispute over a garden wall.
01:14:28 <elliott> if you are not reading this article on sark........ why not............
01:14:46 <Bike> you make a good case elliott
01:14:54 <Fiora> stop it I am laughing at work (no actually keep going)
01:14:58 <Phantom_Hoover> for fuck's sake wikipedia why can you not just describe this kinship system in group-theoretic terms
01:15:32 <Bike> almost like kinship systems are generally of more interest to anthropologists than mathematicians
01:16:39 <elliott> Only Prince Charles, though, has slept at the Seigneurie - to avoid a diplomatic dispute between Jersey and Guernsey over where the prince should stay.
01:16:46 <elliott> thank god we have sark for important things like this
01:17:15 <oerjan> <elliott> The app, called IslendingaApp—yes, Iceland App <-- pretty sure that must mean icelander, not iceland
01:17:54 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/9cda7793b750050b45a9dc69101c2179/tumblr_mkv4eaUvGF1qgcra2o1_500.gif internet
01:19:06 <Bike> "The most recent [British invasion of Vietnam] – from 1945 to 1946 – saw the British fight a campaign for control of the country against communists, " it's a bit sad to see the news oversimplify these things
01:19:30 <elliott> these things: literally every thing
01:20:38 <Bike> wait they're literally feudal?
01:22:07 <Bike> "its own set of laws based on Norman law"
01:22:45 <elliott> If one needed further proof of the village atmosphere on Sark, one need only know that the last major uprising was instigated by Beaumont's mother, the Dame herself. In her old age (she died at 90), Mrs Hathaway pressed for battery-powered buggies to be permitted on the island for those without mobility.
01:22:50 <elliott> "God, yes, there was almost a revolution over that," says the Seigneur. "She said she couldn't get around any more without one, but Chief Pleas were up in arms. I think they thought it was one step on the road to having cars."
01:23:07 <elliott> haha the guy voted to sack himself
01:24:09 <kmc> Sgeo: how much can you afford to spend on your laptop?
01:24:15 <kmc> and do you want it to be particularly small or something
01:24:49 <kmc> i've always been a fan of ThinkPads; the T series is the middle of the road, not too huge, reasonably powerful, not too expensive
01:25:02 <elliott> so this literally happened because the barclay brothers decided that sark sucked
01:25:13 <kmc> Sgeo: the most important thing is to load it up with as much RAM as you can
01:25:34 <Sgeo> Don't care about particularly small. Not sure how much I can afford. At the end of the week I _should_ have two weeks worth of money, but a good amount of that is supposed to go to regular living expenses
01:25:39 <Sgeo> Although I guess this too counts
01:25:39 <Fiora> yeah, picking a laptop depends a lot on what you need to do with it, I think
01:25:55 <Fiora> like I picked mine based on weight and having-a-good-graphics-card
01:25:56 <kmc> Sgeo: usually RAM is much much cheaper if you buy it from amazon or newegg and install it yourself (which is very easy, if it's something you haven't done)
01:26:13 <Sgeo> Any thoughts on EliteBooks?
01:26:16 <Fiora> though I did kind of splurge <.<
01:26:18 <kmc> I have the X1 Carbon which unfortunately is an 'ultrabook' with soldered-on RAM, so you can't do that :/
01:26:20 <Sgeo> Because that's what the Apex one is
01:26:26 <kmc> but I really like it overall
01:26:51 <kmc> also there's a lot of random crap labeled "ThinkPad" these days, so you can't take it as much as a mark of quality as used to be the case
01:26:59 <kmc> but certain machines are still very good
01:27:08 <Bike> wow they have a seneschal
01:27:23 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_space_bats oh my gosh
01:27:36 <Fiora> "using it to debunk the possibility of a successful Operation Sea Lion by saying the only way it could be successful was if alien space bats helped the Nazis."
01:27:52 <elliott> Fiora: a "gaming laptop" type thing?
01:27:54 <kmc> Sgeo: I don't know how much is arbitrary groupthink, but most of my peers think the only non-Apple laptop worth buying is a ThinkPad
01:28:04 <kmc> these are mainly programmer types
01:28:07 <Fiora> elliott: it was about the lightest one I could find with reasonable specs
01:28:11 <elliott> (in terms of how good they are at the actual laptop part)
01:28:15 <Bike> are you serious
01:28:20 <Fiora> i.e. 1080p glossy screen, i7, 7970M
01:28:28 <Bike> Fiora: yeah i know about alien space bats, kinkajou used to talk about 'em
01:28:32 <elliott> (that said this laptop has a screen and a keyboard and mouse plugged into it)
01:28:39 <elliott> (so I'm not one to talk really)
01:28:49 <elliott> (p.s. it is also terrible I really need to buy a new computer)
01:28:56 <Fiora> that said, I think that the heavier ones tend to be better if you can deal with their weight? since they tend to have better cooling
01:29:10 <Fiora> like I have a friend with an alienware laptop, she loves it, it's like 12 pounds or something though -_-
01:29:15 <Bike> "Taxes will go up because suddenly people will want to be paid for doing the island's work."
01:29:16 <kmc> Sgeo: I highly recommend the X1 Carbon if you want thin + light + good screen and are willing to pay for it
01:29:21 <kmc> (it has a higher resolution than the X230 or whatever)
01:29:30 <kmc> also a good battery that charges very quickly
01:29:45 <elliott> Fiora: but I mean, the same applies to desktops :P
01:29:54 <elliott> they're just really big laptops! and have great cooling
01:29:55 <Fiora> true XD but I guess one doesn't normally think of their weight too much
01:30:01 <elliott> but particularly poor btatery life and weight
01:30:18 <kmc> yeah my UPS only lasts a few minutes
01:30:29 <elliott> how to build a laptop: tie a keyboard and a monitor to a desktop with tape
01:30:35 <kmc> google's servers all have a 12V battery inside, or so they say
01:30:37 <shachaf> does the Asus Zenbook U500VZ exist yet
01:30:39 <elliott> and attach it to a battery power supply
01:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, this is because your japanese cartoons have made you PHYSIOLOGICALLY IMPOTENT
01:30:58 <Sgeo> That... is much more expensive than the ~700 that I saw around EliteBook
01:31:00 <kmc> elliott: http://improveverywhere.com/2008/02/25/mobile-desktop/
01:31:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: is this science
01:31:12 -!- mnoqy has joined.
01:31:34 <Bike> "Some Sark residents have complained that the new system is not democratic and have compared the powers the new law granted to the Seneschal, an unelected member whose term the new law extended to the duration of his natural life," i see you're doing well with this democracy thing
01:31:40 -!- mnoqy has changed nick to monqy.
01:31:41 <Sgeo> On the one hand, I _need_ this laptop, on the other, I almost don't want to spend money on work
01:31:48 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:31:49 <kmc> Sgeo: well, can you get them to pay for it
01:31:53 -!- monqy has changed nick to mnoqy.
01:32:02 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: or because of a combination of lack of testosterone, size, lack of exercise, and um... okay that's about it but
01:32:03 <mnoqy> shachaf: someone sent messages to the wrong nick
01:32:16 <shachaf> mnoqy: hang on hang on hang on
01:32:21 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you implying it was me
01:32:22 <elliott> lack of testosterone caused by the animes (technical term)
01:32:23 <Bike> don't listen to fiora, she's beefy as hell
01:32:36 <mnoqy> shachaf: but whoever it was!!! watch out
01:32:37 <Bike> she watched Angel Cop once and knocked out one of my teeth
01:32:46 <Fiora> I have no idea what angel cop is <.<
01:32:50 <Sgeo> Cablevision doesn't consider me a permanent employee, and Apex... well, they're not exactly just giving me this laptop and buying me a new one.
01:33:06 <elliott> are you not considered a permanent employee because you are employed by the recruitment firm instead
01:33:07 <Sgeo> erm, buying themselves a new one
01:33:18 <Bike> Fiora: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpwJbLLivU you're missing out.
01:33:28 <Sgeo> My ID card says "Consultant"
01:34:00 <Fiora> phantom hoover my bag is already like 7kg
01:34:34 <mnoqy> is "bag" slang here
01:34:47 <Bike> it's slang for "bag".
01:34:51 <Sgeo> Bags are just one or more items on the ground.
01:34:52 <mnoqy> bag of...animes???
01:34:58 <Fiora> um. it's a bag. it's purple. it contains a laptop and a bunch of other stuff
01:34:59 <Bike> Bag of animes.
01:35:07 <kmc> bag of amines?
01:35:09 <Fiora> "messenger bag" might be the technical term
01:35:09 <kmc> yep, that's me
01:35:12 <Sgeo> It's been a while since I've played Eternal-Lands. Should I pick it back up again?
01:35:20 <Fiora> kmc: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Anime
01:35:34 <elliott> i hate when i turn on my speakers
01:35:38 <elliott> and a tab has been playing noise for hours
01:35:46 <Sgeo> I think I kept getting perpetually dismayed by how long it would take to start doing magic
01:36:11 <kmc> elliott: when I was in SF i had a startup idea (I swear, they put something in the water) for a company that would sell ads that start playing 20 min after you open a tab
01:36:13 <mnoqy> soln have fewer tabs
01:36:22 <mnoqy> soln block all sources of tab music
01:36:33 <mnoqy> soln browser doesnt support music
01:36:36 <shachaf> kmc: hey have you considered moving to SF and working for a non web startup
01:36:36 <Fiora> kmc: I think that might get you lynched
01:36:44 <mnoqy> soln dont use computer
01:36:47 <Sgeo> Aren't there builds of Chromium that show a speaker icon in tabs that are playing sound?
01:36:59 <elliott> theres an extension for it but im too lazy to install it
01:37:18 <mnoqy> it probably takes more effort to complain than find an extension
01:37:26 <shachaf> elliott: I once had an ad that beat that.
01:37:28 <mnoqy> u know, like, emotionally
01:37:31 <shachaf> In fact it was the worst ad of all.
01:37:46 <shachaf> It was some flash thing which sent cockroaches crawling all over the web page.
01:37:54 <Sgeo> "Here you won't have to compete with Chinese farming bots. Our farming bots are from all over the world, not only China. Just kidding."
01:38:03 <elliott> mnoqy: it costs no emotional effort for me to complain
01:38:06 <elliott> maybe you're just bad at complaining
01:39:31 <elliott> heeelp i can't find the tab
01:39:35 <elliott> maybe it'll just keep making noise forever
01:39:42 <hagb4rd> im sure you can attach event handling method listening to the righ webkit-audio property
01:39:52 <kmc> shachaf: who should i work for in SF
01:39:56 <kmc> or anywhere
01:40:04 <mnoqy> hagb4rd: probably that takes more effort than getting the extension
01:40:13 <elliott> mnoqy: i have an audio-producing tab i want though
01:40:16 <mnoqy> heck, considering elliott's tab count it probably takes more effort to search for it normally
01:40:31 <hagb4rd> maybe.. on the other side it would be a nidce excursion to these fields
01:40:34 <mnoqy> elliott: well it shows an icon and then you can eliminate -most- tabs
01:40:47 <elliott> my tabs are too small for the icon to show though
01:40:58 <shachaf> are you still working at that web startup
01:41:04 <mnoqy> it colors your tab stub and then you can
01:41:06 <kmc> shachaf: no
01:41:24 <Bike> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Dark-Sky_Association huh, that's kinda cool
01:41:41 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
01:41:50 <Fiora> Bike: makes me sad about the sky here ._.
01:41:52 <elliott> monqy's had enough of my shit
01:41:58 <Fiora> I can see like. 10 stars on a good day .____>
01:42:06 <Fiora> (er, good night. but.)
01:42:06 <Bike> it's pretty dark out here
01:42:13 <Fiora> the sky is maroon here at night
01:42:18 <Bike> i'm shit at astronomy though
01:42:23 <Bike> so it's just a bunch of dots?
01:42:27 <kmc> i miss the desert
01:42:30 <Fiora> I'm probably terrible but at least it's just. pretty
01:42:47 <Fiora> I think the last time I saw the milky way was when I visited some relatives out in the country a few years ago...
01:42:50 <kmc> in the desert?
01:43:00 <elliott> i don't think i've seen a proper sky ever
01:43:07 <elliott> and i live in a sort of rural town
01:43:08 <hagb4rd> kmc: did you kill somebody?
01:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the stars here are fairly visible, but clear nights are very rare
01:43:56 <kmc> shachaf: I was pissed off all the time at work. one of my coworkers was super annoying and there were a few other major annoyances, and the rest of it was fine but there was nothing really awesome to keep me going
01:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a girl in london in my halls who was like "oh the sky here is so much clearer"
01:44:12 <shachaf> kmc: Sounds like #haskell.
01:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> note that this is in the middle of the midlands conurbation
01:44:22 <kmc> heh yes maybe
01:44:23 <elliott> i think it's my fault for mocking kmc's startup
01:44:29 <elliott> that must have set it all off
01:45:17 <kmc> i'm not very good at getting along with people
01:45:22 <kmc> but also this person is widely agreed to be annoying
01:45:34 <kmc> but maybe I'm not as good as others at getting past it
01:46:42 <shachaf> Sorry it didn't work out. :-(
01:47:21 <Fiora> I'm not sure that 'not getting along with people' is the same thing as 'being bad at tolerating toxic people'?
01:48:28 <kmc> well this is hardly the only example of not getting along with people
01:48:39 <kmc> i think in general, I hold grudges longer than I should, and don't give people enough slack
01:48:43 <kmc> (that includes myself of course)
01:49:26 <kmc> it's fine to move on if there was no particular reason to stay
01:49:27 <Bike> "Wherever we find Americans we will kill them, but we don't have any connection with the Boston Explosions," Ihsan [a Taliban spokesperson] said.
01:50:14 <kmc> i have the luxury to insist on being happy at work, which most people don't get
01:50:19 <kmc> and i feel kind of guilty about using it, but oh well
01:50:47 <kmc> the next thing I do will either be socially useful or will make mad cash that I can give away
01:51:02 <kmc> actually that's sort of how I got fired, using my (genuine) unhappiness as leverage to get more money so I could give it away
01:51:15 <elliott> kmc: you should write this coq thing for me
01:51:18 <elliott> you will become rich and famous
01:51:37 <Bike> that's... quite a way to be fired :(
01:52:23 <kmc> i mean, I understand thier position, in an infant company you can't afford to spend infinite resources helping people get along
01:52:25 <kmc> they did have the money though
01:52:29 <elliott> kmc: i promise to never fire you btw
01:52:42 <kmc> elliott: you're distorting the free market!!
01:53:00 <elliott> well coq is french and they're basically communists
01:53:10 <kmc> i wonder if i'm oversharing... stupid moderately priced scotch whisk[e]y
01:53:21 <elliott> you are currently at 0.1 millisgeos
01:53:33 <kmc> i think i've shared more about, say, my sex life than Sgeo has
01:53:37 <Fiora> geez this isn't oversharing, you're allowed to talk about your life and how you feel
01:53:55 <kmc> maybe I missed a bunch of lurid sgeo-details
01:53:56 <Fiora> ... I didn't mean sgeo, I meant kmc <.<
01:54:02 <shachaf> Fiora: In a public logged channel?
01:54:12 <shachaf> wait, is Sgeo drunk all the time
01:54:22 <Fiora> if anything it'd be kind of nice if there was more of this. like. feelings. and stuff.
01:54:37 <elliott> inb4 Phantom_Hoover diagnores Fiora with more anime-related diseases
01:54:44 <kmc> engaging feelings module.... [ ok ]
01:54:49 <kmc> insmod feelings.ko
01:55:21 <kmc> still hard to read that not as 'amine'
01:55:21 <elliott> kmc: i think you just won the Making It About Programming prize
01:55:54 <Fiora> you're wonderful okay
01:56:01 <kmc> thanks I think :)
01:56:11 <elliott> i think irc needs real italics
01:56:18 <elliott> you can do bold but have to resort to // for italicisation, truly awful
01:56:30 <shachaf> elliott: um your terminal is the messed up one
01:56:39 <elliott> kmc: hey do *you* know about cpos
01:56:45 <kmc> do i know about cops...
01:57:00 <elliott> kmc is always on the lookout for cops (the joke is drugs)
01:57:14 * kmc has never been arrested
01:57:33 <Sgeo> How much have I talked about my sex life
01:57:35 <Sgeo> Not much, I think
01:57:38 <shachaf> kmc is drinking 220 proof whiskey
01:57:47 <Sgeo> I mean, maybe more than other people, but
01:57:58 <kmc> shachaf: :O
01:58:37 <shachaf> Sgeo: no one else has talked about it more than you, hth
02:00:21 <elliott> shachaf: have I asked you whether you know about cpos yet
02:00:30 <Sgeo> Does that even count as sex life? Does it count as sex life if there's no sex, never has been sex, etc?
02:01:13 <kmc> what's kt-at
02:01:39 <elliott> god dammit there has to be someone who knows about cpos
02:02:18 <shachaf> elliott: i don't know very much about cpos "sry"
02:02:38 <shachaf> elliott: have you considered asking conal
02:02:46 <shachaf> i bet conal knows things??
02:03:30 <elliott> question has to be world-shattering to ask conal it
02:03:41 <shachaf> conal more like coolnal because he's cool
02:04:01 <kmc> what about a cocone
02:04:09 <kmc> cocoa-coated cocones
02:04:14 <shachaf> kmc: there really is such a thing as a cocone in category theory, hth
02:04:25 <kmc> 'thats the joke'.xbm
02:04:59 <Jafet> Is there a category theorist named caine
02:05:01 <elliott> the\ joke\ is\ drugs\ again.htm
02:05:09 <kmc> 'that'"'"'s the joke'.xbm
02:05:14 <kmc> imo the best quoting
02:05:47 <kmc> $'that\x27s the joke'
02:06:06 <kmc> the great thing about web development is that there are so many kinds of quoting to choose from
02:06:08 <shachaf> are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the party in Sgeo's pants
02:06:11 <kmc> each shittier than the rest
02:06:23 <kmc> there's a party in my pants and invites will be strictly rationed based on Klout score
02:06:26 <Jafet> kmc: it's like russian roulette except there are n-1 bullets
02:06:33 <kmc> Jafet: yeah
02:07:17 <shachaf> russian roulette with n+1 bullets
02:07:17 <elliott> wtf churchill won a nobel prize in literature
02:07:19 <Gregor> Discovered that the original SimCity was released as F/OSS (under the name "Micropolis")
02:07:28 <Gregor> Shortly after, discovered that the original SimCity was sort of a shitty game.
02:07:38 <kmc> russian roulette with ε₀ bullets
02:07:39 <shachaf> Gregor: what are you doing voiced
02:07:55 <Gregor> shachaf: Fear not my voice, voiceless peon.
02:08:00 <shachaf> kmc: do you know anything about inaccessible cardinals
02:08:09 <kmc> shachaf: no ask lexande
02:08:21 <shachaf> lexande never seems to want to talk about them
02:08:23 <elliott> does lexande know about cpos
02:08:29 <shachaf> maybe because i'm clueless and don't even know the right questions to ask
02:08:30 <kmc> i guess ε₀ is an inaccessible cardinal? 'not my department'
02:08:30 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, that's what they are when they're picking a new pope right
02:08:33 <kmc> elliott: quite possibly
02:08:38 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: too late for that joke sorry
02:08:45 <kmc> #popejokes
02:08:45 <shachaf> lexande knows a lot of things
02:08:56 <shachaf> hey remember when lexande was in this channel?
02:09:33 <shachaf> elliott: why did churchill win that
02:09:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31089
02:09:54 <kmc> because there was no nobel prize in killing nazis
02:10:10 <shachaf> well maybe there should be a nobel copeace prize
02:10:19 <kmc> `run time true
02:10:20 <HackEgo> \ real0m0.001s \ user0m0.000s \ sys0m0.000s
02:11:20 <elliott> copumpkin: so does pumpkin know about cpos then
02:11:21 <shachaf> copumpkin: you know kn0thing?
02:11:29 <kmc> here is kno where
02:12:19 <shachaf> elliott: are you sure cpos even exist................
02:12:22 <elliott> copumpkin: well you're useless then
02:12:35 <elliott> Gregor: do you know about cpos
02:12:37 <shachaf> imo copumpkin is not useless
02:13:08 <shachaf> copumpkin is one of the best people in this channel
02:13:16 <shachaf> according to the cpo of being a good person
02:14:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: does cpoumpking know about cpos
02:15:47 <oerjan> <kmc> i guess ε₀ is an inaccessible cardinal? 'not my department' <-- no
02:16:06 <kmc> well I guess it's an ordinal
02:16:20 <elliott> aim high with your statements, kmc
02:16:30 <elliott> I am 60% confident ε₀ is two unicode codepoints
02:16:31 <shachaf> no ε₀ isn't inaccessible is it????
02:16:38 <shachaf> oh that's what oerjan said
02:16:43 <kmc> elliott: you missed the 20 invisible zero-width non joiners I put in there
02:16:48 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaccessible_Island
02:17:06 <Jafet> Cartesian closed CPO C³PO
02:18:10 <Fiora> I didn't even know that part of the atlantic like, had islands at all
02:18:20 <kmc> which part?
02:18:35 <kmc> oh copumpkin's link
02:18:52 <Fiora> "No land mammals, reptiles, amphibians, butterflies, or snails have recently been found at Inaccessible."
02:19:17 <Bike> Wanna hear a fun Darwin fact?
02:19:35 <Bike> On the Beagle they went over to some rock in the middle of the Atlantic and looked all the birds there. No moss or anything.
02:19:49 <Bike> Darwin commented that the birds were stupid and he could have killed as many as he wanted with his hammer.
02:21:16 <kmc> bouvet island also seems to be quite the middle of nowhere
02:21:29 <kmc> don't know if it's less accessible than Inaccessible
02:21:33 <Bike> "Both are of a tame and stupid disposition, and are so unaccustomed to visitors, that I could have killed any number of them with my geological hammer."
02:21:47 <kmc> perhaps Inaccessible Island is where we banish all the developers who don't write accessible software
02:22:03 <Bike> http://honeymooney.com/world/logbook/images/65-St_Paul_rocks.jpg Kind of shitty as islands go, I think.
02:22:30 <Fiora> ocean ridges are kind of amazing
02:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo continues to be weird, meanwhile my favourite island is rockall
02:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> if only due to the slight phonetic similarity with 'fuck all'
02:23:02 <Sgeo> Guava is a library for Java
02:23:12 <Sgeo> A lot of things like an option type, a bidirectional map
02:23:21 <Sgeo> (The latter of which I just looked for, and found in Guava)
02:23:28 <Bike> " It is the only location on Atlantic Ocean where the abyssal mantle is exposed above sea level" oh, that's kinda cool.
02:23:41 <elliott> kmc: i have a mosh feature request
02:23:51 <elliott> show a random number of asterisks as you type your password
02:24:01 <elliott> so i don't expect to see no feedback as i type it and instead type it into an untrusted window instead
02:24:09 <elliott> oh i guess that's ssh's fault
02:24:13 <shachaf> elliott: mosh doesn't have you type your password, it's -- yes.
02:24:22 <elliott> okay ssh feature request but kmc should implement it
02:24:30 <elliott> thus solving all our problems
02:24:32 <Sgeo> Wait, if mosh doesn't have you type a password, then... huh?
02:24:33 <shachaf> elliott: You could use ssh-agent...
02:24:39 <Sgeo> Does Mosh require a key?
02:24:50 <Phantom_Hoover> apparently http://dungeonoverlord.wikia.com/wiki/Abyssal_Mantle
02:24:53 <shachaf> mosh-client and mosh-server use a secret key to communicate, yes.
02:24:55 <Bike> Fiora: It's an uplift from the mid-atlantic ridge iirc
02:24:57 <elliott> shachaf: I forget why I stopped using ssh-agent
02:25:04 <Bike> well, "if i understand correctly", more like
02:25:30 <Fiora> so like, most of the islands in that area aren't actual uplifts, but like, magma collecting or something?
02:25:42 <Bike> "Darwin was correct in noting that, unusually, these small islands were not volcanic, but were instead formed by a geologic uplift."
02:26:05 <Bike> the Abyss of course is what you call the ocean floor
02:26:19 <Bike> though it's usually like... a plain...
02:26:27 <Fiora> how... how does that even like work @_@ how does the ocean floor end up that high
02:27:03 <hagb4rd> isnt it even higher in the himalaya?
02:27:21 <Fiora> that's continental crust though isn't it?
02:27:25 <Fiora> like it's different or something
02:27:42 <Bike> Well, the mid-atlantic ridge is the mantle poking up through the gap in the plates, so to speak.
02:27:46 <kmc> the secretest key
02:28:00 <hagb4rd> parts of it was ocean floor too.. don't remember the exact height range
02:28:03 <Bike> The islets are made out of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpentinite
02:28:13 <kmc> Sgeo: the 'mosh' wrapper script uses ssh to launch a mosh-server on the remote host, then launches a mosh-client locally with the same private key (communicated over ssh)
02:28:34 <kmc> this is good because it means Mosh itself doesn't need to do user authentication, it accept all auth methods supported by SSH, and it also doesn't need to do any public-key crypto
02:28:44 <Fiora> "Serpentinite has a significant amount of bound water, hence it contains abundant hydrogen atoms able to slow down neutrons by elastic collision (neutron thermalization process). Because of this serpentinite can be used as dry filler inside steel jackets in some designs of nuclear reactors." O_O
02:28:48 <Bike> oh, it's not even part of the ridge, it's uh...
02:28:52 <Bike> "An oceanic core complex (OCC), or megamullion, is a seabed geologic feature that forms a long ridge perpendicular to a mid-ocean ridge."
02:28:53 <kmc> also you don't need to install mosh as root
02:28:56 <kmc> you can just run it out of your homedir
02:29:09 <Bike> Fiora: pre-watered rock. i like it
02:29:27 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amotoki_ASPSP_Megamullion_En.jpg ah, here's a geologic map of the area
02:30:23 <Bike> Godzilla Mullion, part of the Parece Vela Rift in the Western Pacific Ocean between Japan and the Philippines was discovered in 2001. It is about 150 km long, about as large as the State of Delaware, and is the largest Ocean Core Complex in the world.
02:30:32 <Phantom_Hoover> iirc at the bottom of the kola borehole there was loads of it
02:30:35 <Bike> clearly hydrologic geologists are having fun with names
02:30:50 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: see, like, "common" -> "at the bottom of the deepest hole ever built"
02:32:40 <Fiora> Bike: well, like, silicate perovskites make up most of the earth, they're super common
02:32:48 <Fiora> but they're only present deeper than 650km XP
02:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> there's also stuff like solid solutions which are interesting
02:33:00 <Bike> so, common, but hard to get
02:33:09 <Bike> Fiora: i like how the article goes from inuit carvings to reactor shielding
02:33:17 <Fiora> also diamond anvil cells are so cool
02:33:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Serpentinite_Walrus_2012.jpg frankly this is more impressive. it's a very impressive walrus
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02:33:45 <kmc> wow this hard cider tastes like caramel
02:33:46 <elliott> kmc: related: do you know of a good way to use/remember/whatever secure passwords
02:33:53 <kmc> it's cool bordering on disturbing
02:34:00 <kmc> elliott: secure in what sense
02:34:15 <shachaf> I should change my password scheme.
02:34:16 <Bike> what the heck, plants grow in dirt made of serpentine rocks
02:34:40 <Bike> "Unlike most ecosystems, in serpentine barrens there is less plant growth closer to a stream, due to toxic minerals in the water."
02:34:55 <kmc> life finds a way Bike
02:34:56 <elliott> kmc: I believe I am paying you to know the answer better than I do
02:35:05 <kmc> elliott: plz send bitcoins
02:35:27 <Bike> That's like the spookiest ecology thing I've heard of since devil's gardens.
02:35:31 <kmc> i'm already 60 days past payment due on this weapons grade plutonium
02:35:42 <elliott> Bike: are those gardens run by the devil himself
02:35:50 <elliott> kmc: ok but seriously what do you mean by secure in what sense
02:35:59 <kmc> Bike: what about the fungus growing inside the Chernobyl plant that metabolizes gamma radiation
02:36:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus
02:36:12 <Bike> They're stands of trees where a particular kind of ant goes around killing all plants that aren't one particular species of tree the ant lives in.
02:36:13 <kmc> life finds a way
02:36:36 <Bike> Also they're in the Amazon, which is kind of really diverse, so it must be spooky.
02:36:41 <kmc> black molds and revelations
02:37:06 <Fiora> those things are so amazing *_*
02:37:09 <kmc> duuuude I'm going to have some fresh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hericium_erinaceus to eat soon
02:37:22 <Bike> life will find a way... to kill (this summer)
02:37:27 <Fiora> the story about how they got the first photos of the "elephant's foot" in the reactor sarcophagus is terrifying though
02:37:46 <Bike> you know what else is terrifying? "reactor sarcophagus"
02:38:00 <Fiora> just like. radiation so strong they had to take pictures of it -using a robot- around a mirror or something
02:38:16 <Fiora> because like, the radiation would knock out the robot
02:38:40 <elliott> ok so what is this about elephants
02:38:48 <elliott> which wikipedia link to i have to click to understand what Fiora is going on about
02:38:58 <Fiora> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo475gICWF1qcjl1to1_1280.gif
02:39:10 <Bike> What the fuck is that.
02:39:13 <elliott> en.wikipedia.org.tumblr.com
02:39:39 <Fiora> http://duckduckgrayduck.com/2012/06/06/if-you-were-to-look-at-this-in-person-you-would-die-instantly/
02:39:41 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Podzol.jpg "hm, how can i spice up this photograph of dirt"
02:39:43 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corium_(nuclear_reactor)#Chernobyl_accident
02:39:55 <Fiora> "They had to treat this blob like a real Medusa. The original wheeled camera they sent up to take pictures was destroyed by the radiation. "
02:40:07 <kmc> "Corium" aka "bulk material made from a melted reactor core"
02:40:22 <Bike> Fiora: reminds me of that american accident where the reactor jumped ten feet or whatever
02:41:01 <Bike> or rather the corpse recovery operation
02:41:04 <Fiora> they tried to take a sample of the corium in chernobyl but they couldn't find a way to chip a piece off
02:41:08 <Fiora> so they shot it with an ak-47
02:41:16 <kmc> hahaha \rainbow{RUSSIA}
02:42:04 <Bike> "lava-like fuel containing material" i think this is actually a more terrifying name than "corium"
02:42:37 * kmc is reminded that he lives a few blocks from one of the only remaining HEU reactors in the US
02:42:43 <Fiora> "Corium (and also highly irradiated uranium fuel) has an interesting property: spontaneous dust generation, or spontaneous self-sputtering of the surface. The alpha decay of isotopes inside the glassy structure causes Coulomb explosions, degrading the material and releasing submicron particles from its surface."
02:42:49 <Fiora> it literally makes its own dust
02:43:03 <kmc> how....... did they even discover that
02:43:24 <elliott> so wait how did they get the mirror there
02:43:30 <Fiora> "The corium undergoes degradation. The Elephant's Foot, hard and strong shortly after its formation, is now cracked enough that a glue-treated wad easily separated its top 1–2 centimeter layer."
02:43:31 <elliott> is it really like you can get within a hallway of it
02:43:39 <Fiora> I imagine they could like
02:43:40 <Fiora> put it on the end of a pole
02:43:43 <elliott> turn the corner AUUUUUUAUAUAUAUAAUUGH [drops dead]
02:43:57 <Bike> What I'm wondering is whether the mirror reflects radiation
02:43:58 <hagb4rd> the may attached it to the robot
02:43:59 <Fiora> like how you put in those really high ceiling lights
02:44:07 <Fiora> I think reflecting gamma and x-ray is kind of tricky
02:44:19 <elliott> hey how is fukushima these days
02:44:22 <Fiora> like, if you could reflect them that easily you wouldn't need shielding...?
02:44:38 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_optics
02:44:59 <hagb4rd> but how is radiation reflected with mirrors? does it only work for gamma-ray`?
02:45:28 <Bike> Fiora: see that just makes me imagine a reactor made out of mirrors and then when it fails the mirrors all break apart and all the radiation shoots out everywhere and um
02:46:00 <Jafet> I think that's called a bomb
02:47:42 <Fiora> "10,000 rem per hour" @___@
02:48:22 <Bike> isn't that enough to literally vaporize you
02:48:41 <Fiora> .... oh nevermind that was like. 20 years later. oh gosh it must have been insane right after
02:48:43 <elliott> It consists of nuclear fuel, fission products, control rods, structural materials from the affected parts of the reactor, products of their chemical reaction with air, water and steam, and, in case the reactor vessel is breached, molten concrete from the floor of the reactor room.
02:48:53 <elliott> the most hardcore material
02:50:51 <Fiora> 30,000 rem per hour @___@
02:51:10 <kmc> all melted together with some potato and onion
02:52:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chernobyl_lava_flow.jpg
02:52:46 <kmc> my drunk, radioactive kitchen
02:52:57 <Fiora> just add a little bit of U-238, some Pu-239... maybe a bit of U-234 and Sr-90...
02:53:01 <Jafet> kmc's finest yellow cake
02:53:04 <Fiora> and a daassshhh of Americium
02:53:23 <Bike> well, it's nice to know humans can just make lava
02:54:05 <elliott> all we have to do is build a gigantic fucking nuclear reactor and have it blow up
02:54:29 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Duncan-Hines-Classic-Yellow-Layer/dp/B0002IMS5K
02:54:37 <elliott> prank idea: do that somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Antarctica, wait for people to find it
02:54:48 <elliott> read the conspiracy theories and laugh
02:54:51 <kmc> "Obviously, the price is right -- so that's 1 star right there. And the convenience of super-saver delivery spares me I don't even know how many trips to Niger. That's another star. However, try as I might, I could never get this stuff to enrich to fully weapons-grade."
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02:55:56 <Bike> elliott: there are a lot of radioisotope plants in the arctic circle
02:56:19 <elliott> right but have any of them blown up
02:56:40 <Bike> THey don't really "blow up", but people rob materials from them sometimes
02:56:51 <Bike> good business decision, robbing radioactive rock
02:57:58 <Bike> oh, the half-lives are only like ninety years though, not enough for a good conspiracy
02:58:30 <Fiora> Bike: you could, like, intentionally enrich some materials so it looked like they had been decaying for 6000 years or something?
02:58:43 <Fiora> and then like, hide it in an egyptian tomb
02:59:09 <Bike> well there are those natural reactors near the african fault aren't there
02:59:17 <elliott> right I'm thinking like you build a massive eerie nuclear reactor complex
02:59:22 <elliott> antarctica is pretty big so this should be easy
02:59:26 <Fiora> that thing is kind of amazing
02:59:28 <elliott> maybe make it look as old as possible
02:59:30 <Jafet> This is best done with martian rock samples.
02:59:36 <elliott> put some scary warnings (maybe in languages that don't exist???)
02:59:41 <elliott> with awful safety practices
02:59:55 <elliott> then you just set the whole meltdown off and make it look as if there was a hasty evacuation and lots of panic and stuff
02:59:59 <Bike> "if the spirits begin to eat, insert these rods"
03:00:11 <Bike> that was supposed to be "heat" but that works too
03:00:27 <elliott> basically what I'm saying is
03:00:34 <elliott> get to work on producing real-life SCPs please??
03:02:33 <kmc> you've seen the work about making warnings for nuclear waste storage facilities
03:02:40 <kmc> that will still be understood 10,000 years from now
03:03:16 <elliott> if there was a fanclub for it I would join it
03:03:25 <shachaf> i bet they have pictures of humans on them
03:03:29 <elliott> I would also consider: using some of the demonstration images as album covers
03:03:33 <Bike> i think one of my favorite ancient ones is the weather drones
03:03:33 <Bike> where it starts by describing how these things that look like fairly normal 1980s aerial survey drones go around the earth broadcasting signals
03:03:33 <Bike> and then mentions that they were first found in the 1910s
03:04:05 <elliott> what i DEFINITELY NEED TO BE DOING is reading scps at 4 am
03:04:20 <elliott> Bike: i liked the one with the chord that would destroy the world despite it not making any sense
03:04:25 <Bike> unfortunately it's pretty fucking hard to predict language and cultural change, as evidenced by oracle bone script
03:04:29 <Bike> elliott: haha yeah
03:04:30 <elliott> the one where they extincted a whale species because it made one of the frequencies
03:04:38 <Bike> they were probably jerks anyway
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03:05:04 <Bike> 'course there's that other SCP where they commit actual genocide so they don't give a damn aboutu ethics
03:05:11 <mnoqy> im not really "into" scps but hsould i be?
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03:05:32 <elliott> mnoqy: imo some of them are pretty great
03:05:42 <elliott> and others are good, but then there are all the mediocre-to-bad ones
03:05:57 <Fiora> a few of the joke ones are really wonderful too
03:06:11 <elliott> i liked a few of the joke ones but i've forgotten them
03:06:20 <elliott> mnoqy: have you seen sam hughes' one. that one is "well-liked"
03:06:33 <shachaf> which sam hughes are we talkin' here
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03:06:38 <mnoqy> ive read like one ever and i forget what it was even about
03:06:39 <Fiora> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1638-j
03:06:46 <elliott> http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-055
03:06:52 <elliott> sam hughes as in qntm.org sam hughes
03:06:52 <Fiora> I love the ones that are really meta, like, the SCP itself is written in a style related to the SCP
03:06:53 <shachaf> i bet it's the evil one "ie qntm"
03:07:26 <elliott> scp-055 isn't really creepy tho, but it has what we in the biz call a "good concept"
03:07:46 <Fiora> also the vending machine that serves random things.
03:07:50 <Fiora> from like, all kinds of parallel realities
03:08:15 <mnoqy> five (5) by five (5) by two point five (2.5)
03:08:40 <elliott> mnoqy: you can't break the style!!
03:09:15 <elliott> the best ones all work by the tedious writing style and illogical ordering (whereby you get the containment procedures before learning what it is) make the nature of it dawn on you slowly
03:09:34 <Bike> oh haha, 55 was qntm?
03:10:25 <Bike> i like the way the description is unsigned.
03:11:14 <elliott> it's either like HIV or LSD
03:12:07 <elliott> mnoqy: i should keep links to good scps so i can link people who ask about them...... unfortunately i haven't done so
03:12:26 <coppro> 55 is one of my favourites
03:12:30 <mnoqy> enumerate every scp
03:12:43 <mnoqy> then just go through them all
03:12:55 <mnoqy> maybe use "rating" as a huerusitc
03:12:58 <mnoqy> to order yr search'
03:13:21 <mnoqy> and stop looking after they consistently turn to 100%mediocre, then start again at the bottom for the crap ones and work back up
03:13:26 <elliott> i'm not even sure you can order them by rating
03:13:39 <mnoqy> if you list them all you can write down their ratings and then order them
03:15:08 <elliott> it's quarter tempting b/c i'd get to read all the good ones
03:15:22 <elliott> ¾ not tempting because i'd have to read a lot
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03:20:00 <shachaf> kmc: have you seen the film "the court jester"
03:20:35 <shachaf> if you like "that kind of thing"
03:22:17 <elliott> people who like this sort of thing will find it just the sort of thing they like?
03:23:14 <shachaf> hey i heard a good definition the other day
03:23:22 <shachaf> trust: the condition necessary for betrayal
03:26:16 <copumpkin> the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true
03:26:31 <shachaf> copumpkin knows ""what's up""
03:27:44 <shachaf> (Well, except that the vessel with the pestle holds the pellet with the poison. The flagon with the dragon holds the brew that is true.)
03:29:11 <copumpkin> I just drank from the vessl with the pestle, thinking it held the brew that is true. I should have taken from the flagon with the dragon I guess, and now I shall meet my end from the pellet with the poison :( it was nice knowing you
03:29:45 <HackEgo> PdUrBiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
03:30:46 <copumpkin> only one way to find out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ9f2rnjB84
03:30:51 <oerjan> i'm sorry but pellet does not rhyme with poison hth
03:31:10 <shachaf> oerjan: it's not meant to rhyme just to alliterate hth
03:31:23 <kmc> hi pdurbin
03:31:36 <doesthiswork> where does the chalice from the palace fit in?
03:31:55 <shachaf> oerjan: well that one doesn't hth
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03:33:00 <doesthiswork> I don't think you need the disclaimer about irc.dal.net http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/details.php?room=%23esoteric&net=DALnet
03:33:13 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zIWcCvQNqQ
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03:36:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: Oh, I got it wrong.
03:36:35 <shachaf> Somehow they moved the poison.
03:40:00 <shachaf> did you read that one story yet
03:40:07 <shachaf> i should probably stop bugging you about it
03:43:40 <copumpkin> but not if you stop bugging me about it
03:43:55 <copumpkin> but yeah, it is a tab that's still open
03:44:08 <copumpkin> and I usually get to those eventually cause I get sick of having a bunch of them open
03:44:25 <shachaf> I get sick of having a bunch of tabs open so I bookmark them all and then close them.
03:44:28 <shachaf> And then I never look at them again.
03:44:46 <shachaf> (Sometimes I do get to them.)
03:45:05 <shachaf> Do you have a tab open for my five dola?
03:45:56 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:46:41 <shachaf> oerjan: come on now you're stretching it
03:47:43 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/.$/ Except that's mostly dead, alas.\1/' wisdom/welcome
03:47:44 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:48:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/.$/ Except that'\''s mostly dead, alas.\1/' wisdom/welcome
03:48:18 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 41: invalid reference \1 on `s' command's RHS
03:48:26 <elliott> oerjan: did you go and visit it
03:49:17 <elliott> oerjan: then how do you know it's dead
03:49:25 <elliott> true mysterys of the universe
03:49:26 <oerjan> elliott: doesthiswork's link?
03:50:59 <shachaf> kmc: my neighbor from down the street talked about how in the time he's lived there two people have been shot in front of where he lives
03:51:06 <shachaf> and someone tried to break in with a crowbar
03:51:59 <shachaf> conclusion, don't live in epa??
03:54:08 <kmc> why did the people get shot
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04:11:21 <kmc> yessssss the Pleurotus pulmonarius culture is pinning
04:11:48 <kmc> phoenix oyster mushroom
04:12:39 <pikhq_> ITT: kmc likes psychotropic shrooms.
04:13:07 <Bike> "phoenix oyster"?
04:13:19 <coppro> elliott: what do you think of idris?
04:13:47 <elliott> not ready from general-purpose programming from my experiments
04:13:50 <elliott> especially error messages are bad
04:14:05 <elliott> work making it better is time well-spent
04:14:23 <coppro> I wasn't considering making it work better
04:14:26 <coppro> got enough distractions already
04:15:12 <kmc> it's not psychotropic...
04:15:19 <kmc> it's a tasty edible mushroom
04:15:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleurotus_pulmonarius
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04:17:26 <elliott> everything to do with you is drugs
04:17:40 <kmc> :'( im typecast
04:17:44 <pikhq_> Everyone knows that's the only reason you'd know the word "bitcoins".
04:19:19 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Pleurotus_pulmonarius_LC0228.jpg
04:21:06 <kmc> saprotroph
04:21:25 <Bike> I read "sapphotroph", was mortified
04:22:44 <Bike> would mean "lesbian-eater"
04:22:50 <Bike> as opposed to "death eater" which is totally fine obv.
04:24:53 <oerjan> itym "lesbian food" hth
04:27:02 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Mycomorphbox
04:35:44 <coppro> elliott: is it accurate to all idris agda less the suck
04:38:08 <elliott> coppro: if you want to be oversimplifying and inaccurate, sure. (like all definitions like that are.)
04:38:13 <elliott> agda is far more usable today than idris
04:38:18 <elliott> and the two languages have different goals
04:38:24 <shachaf> reinterpret_cast<char *>(kmc)
04:38:24 <elliott> I don't see them as in competition at all
04:42:30 <kmc> why have i been reinterpreted
04:42:48 <shachaf> because you're a c++ programmer hth
04:43:01 <Bike> quite a character!! or something
04:44:02 <kmc> i have been known to program in C++ "from time to time"
04:44:26 <shachaf> Bike: twist: kmc isn't a character, just an 8-bit value
04:44:36 <kmc> signed or unsigned?
04:48:55 <elliott> kmc: can I pay you to do cpos yet
04:49:25 <elliott> why are you making this difficult kmc
04:51:16 <Bike> BALLS OF STEEL
04:51:40 <kmc> balls of radius 1
04:52:54 <Bike> what's a cpos again
04:53:31 <Bike> complete partial orders
04:54:16 <coppro> Set is such a wonderful math game
04:54:24 <coppro> it's all about adding up vectors in ZZ_3^4!
04:54:52 <Bike> so what do i gotta do
04:55:22 <elliott> tell me what the cpo of cpos is (does it exist?? I hear it does) and fix the coq problem that stops me defining it
04:56:07 <shachaf> Bike: "use ur brain" how can they be complete and partial at the same time
04:56:26 <Bike> elliott: do you have any reason to believe that it's unique?
04:56:29 <elliott> Bike doesn't have a brain. he's a bicycle
04:56:31 <mnoqy> oh dear how many people is elliott bugging about this
04:56:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: he even bugged me.........................................
04:57:02 <elliott> Bike: well you can use a trivial relation always
04:57:04 <mnoqy> have you tried the mathematicians who actually "do" order theory
04:57:10 <elliott> mnoqy: you don't understand
04:57:17 <elliott> the more embarrassing it is to ask questions
04:57:27 <elliott> would you ask a number theorist what 2 + 2 is
04:57:40 <mnoqy> i ask everyone that
04:57:53 <mnoqy> probably a number theorist would understand most why i ask
04:58:06 <Bike> If you know someone who could answer this more effectively than me i'd be happy to ask a stupid-ass question for you.
04:58:18 <coppro> who here has actually played Set?
04:58:33 <Bike> why do you want this anyway
04:58:43 <mnoqy> ask ##math (i've heard things about ##math (not really actually.....))
04:58:47 <shachaf> hey i was in the same room as dana scott once
04:58:54 <mnoqy> i've heard of dana scott
04:59:00 <shachaf> "does that make me famous"
04:59:05 <mnoqy> i may or may not have read a thing by dana scott
04:59:10 <elliott> Bike: denotational semantics
04:59:22 <mnoqy> why do you need it for denotational semantics
04:59:27 <elliott> I'm pretty sure Dana Scott is smart enough that asking him any question whatsoever would be embarrassing
04:59:27 <mnoqy> itym you need it for goofin around
04:59:35 <elliott> mnoqy: I want the denotational semantics for goofing around
04:59:44 <Bike> tsh denotational semantics
04:59:56 <Bike> whatever lemme ask the actual math student i fuckin know
05:00:09 <Bike> how you people keep up with this crap is beyond me. don't you ever want to study monks instead
05:00:11 <mnoqy> uh oh this could get ugly
05:00:22 <oerjan> <shachaf> Bike: "use ur brain" how can they be complete and partial at the same time <-- woah dude
05:01:10 <elliott> Bike: if you start the question with "this asshole on IRC" I'll fuck you up
05:01:38 <Bike> ?? why would i do that, you're not an asshole
05:01:38 <lambdabot> why would i do that, you're not an asshole
05:01:45 <Bike> I keep forgetting about that.
05:01:46 <mnoqy> um do you know elliott
05:02:05 <oerjan> wait Bike studies monks?
05:02:26 <elliott> Bike: pretty sure I am an asshole :(
05:02:33 <Bike> That was just an example. There are lots of interesting things.
05:02:40 <Bike> Sometimes I get a bit frustrated at how made up math gets.
05:02:46 <mnoqy> gosh have you ever like
05:02:52 <oerjan> monks, not m(on|no)qys
05:02:57 <mnoqy> i mean really thought about
05:03:00 <mnoqy> what assholes really are
05:03:10 <Bike> they call 'em assholes but i've never seen 'em ass
05:03:48 <Bike> just one of many valuable services i provide
05:04:05 <elliott> mnoqy: is there some deeper meaning i'm missing
05:04:09 <mnoqy> i m never frustrated about made up math but im frustrated about how much math i dont know
05:04:11 <elliott> imo assholes are pretty simple
05:04:18 <Bike> that's also frustrating
05:04:31 <elliott> Bike: btw don't you think this is the wrong channel to dislike things for being made up
05:04:33 <mnoqy> elliott: but referring to things as assholes??? or even whole asses
05:04:43 <oerjan> ?? hm (does (this (remove (parentheses) even) without) commands)
05:04:43 <mnoqy> how can a person be an asshole
05:04:43 <Bike> Possibly, possibly.
05:04:44 <lambdabot> hm (does (this (remove (parentheses) even) without) commands)
05:04:44 <elliott> mnoqy: well assholes say a lot of poop
05:05:02 <Bike> It's also the wrong attitude to be a math major in and yet i persist
05:05:12 <Bike> mnoqy: did i ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk
05:05:32 <elliott> Bike: wait are you actually am ath major
05:05:36 <elliott> i thought you were a fucking biologist
05:05:48 <Bike> computational neuroscience, it's a double major
05:05:54 <Bike> also i'm not even actually in school atm fuck my life
05:06:52 <elliott> made up things are inherently better anyway
05:06:54 <Bike> elliott: How about, use inclusion as a partial order.
05:07:04 <Bike> that's complete probably?
05:07:05 <elliott> follows from theorem 1 (everything that exists is shit)
05:07:11 <elliott> and theorem 2 (you can make up things that don't exist)
05:07:14 <Bike> shit is pretty interesting
05:07:23 <Bike> maybe that's the difference between you and me
05:07:59 <mnoqy> shit is shit "reflexivity, man"
05:08:04 <mnoqy> shit is also the shit, i hear
05:08:13 <Bike> the limit supremum? ummmm i guess you need the sets to have... things...
05:08:32 <mnoqy> they're not set sthey're cpos
05:09:06 <shachaf> mnoqy: hi do you provide "mnoqy wisdom"
05:09:13 <Bike> elliott: oh oops you need that one axiom........
05:09:16 <shachaf> and if so which one or both
05:09:23 <oerjan> inf might be intersection, if you are using inclusion
05:09:26 <Bike> you know. the one
05:09:38 <oerjan> dunno if that gives a cpo
05:09:40 <Bike> «Suppose a partially ordered set P has the property that every chain (i.e. totally ordered subset) has an upper bound in P. Then the set P contains at least one maximal element.»
05:09:47 <Bike> wow i'm actually really bad at this gosh
05:09:52 <elliott> okay but that's not what i'm asking about
05:09:55 <elliott> that's just talking about plain old cpos
05:09:56 <mnoqy> why do you need axiom of choice
05:10:23 <elliott> i mean what is sup c (a CPO) where c is a monotonic function N -> CPO (i.e. a chain)
05:10:30 <shachaf> can i have the axiom of choice
05:10:58 <mnoqy> Bike: is it customary in your parts to assume the axiom of choice or to assume zorn's lemma or
05:11:20 <mnoqy> which do you assume and which do you take as a consequence
05:11:27 <mnoqy> "important decisions"
05:11:29 <Bike> elliott: well that's a chain with upper bounds so it should have a maximum by zorn's
05:11:38 <Bike> just not... what it actually is
05:11:47 <oerjan> elliott: _if_ the intersection of a family of cpo's on a set is a cpo on that set then that's probably enough for the whole structure to be a cpo.
05:11:52 <mnoqy> one time a class i was in assumed zorn's lemma directly!!!
05:12:23 <mnoqy> 22:11:29 <Bike> elliott: well that's a chain with upper bounds so it should have a maximum by zorn's
05:12:26 <mnoqy> 22:11:38 <Bike> just not... what it actually is
05:12:57 <mnoqy> btw what sort of math do you do. math is cool
05:13:08 <Bike> The kind where I flail around on IRC
05:13:25 <elliott> Bike: have you proved the chain has an upper bound
05:13:34 <mnoqy> (and how have you gotten through life without needing to use zorn's lemma for a thing??? gosh)
05:13:48 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo the axiom of determinacy
05:13:48 <mnoqy> not just any upper bound but a least upper bound
05:13:52 <elliott> mnoqy: i've never used zorn's lemma
05:14:05 <mnoqy> elliott: maybe you've never gotten through life
05:14:19 <mnoqy> i've had to use zorn's lemma.....3...4???times
05:14:27 <mnoqy> never used aoc directly.......
05:14:29 <shachaf> hey who here ``believes in'' the axiom of determinacy
05:14:36 <mnoqy> what's the axiom of determinacy
05:14:48 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_determinacy
05:14:52 <elliott> it's that thing that contradicts with choice right
05:15:09 <mnoqy> i have a hard time "believing in" "believing in" math things
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05:15:32 <shachaf> that's why i put it in quotes
05:15:55 <elliott> it's like believing in math things
05:16:03 <oerjan> i "believe" in godel's completeness theorem, which means if it's consistent, it exists.
05:16:09 <Bike_> mnoqy: you don't believe that people believe in things?
05:16:36 <Bike_> elliott: the upper bound of each chain can just be the union of everything in the chain, like oerjan probably said
05:17:00 <Bike_> shachaf: i like how this is talking about games and shit that's good
05:17:01 <elliott> oh oerjan said something... it was being drowned out by bicycles
05:17:08 <oerjan> Bike_: i didn't. it's intersection that tends to work nicely with po's defined by inclusion, not union
05:17:11 <elliott> i was using inverse inclusion i think
05:17:18 <mnoqy> Bike_: are you sure you know what youre trying to do..
05:17:19 <shachaf> Bike_: um it's just talking about games
05:17:25 <Bike_> mnoqy: i'm pretty sure i don't
05:17:26 <shachaf> Bike_: which article are you reading
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05:18:17 <elliott> Bike_: are you sure you're a maths major
05:18:25 <Bike> no i'm really not
05:18:37 <shachaf> elliott: ummmm there's no such thing as "a maths major"
05:18:45 <shachaf> "major" is "american splelling"
05:18:58 <mnoqy> majour looks....wrong
05:18:59 <coppro> elliott: I'm sorry, my majour is not maths
05:19:13 <Bike> no i mean i'm not sure
05:19:16 <Bike> because i'm incompetent
05:19:48 <elliott> Bike: it's ok. i believe in u
05:20:03 <elliott> you'll achieve great things!! for a bicycle anyway
05:20:14 <shachaf> what's a great thing for a bicycle to achieve
05:20:27 <mnoqy> ease of how u get on it
05:20:36 <shachaf> not sure Bike can manage that
05:20:39 <Bike> but seriously if you just have cpo1 <= cpo2 iff cpo1 isin cpo2 then you could just take the union
05:20:44 <shachaf> Bike: have you ever been steald
05:21:03 <mnoqy> Bike: but then you need a cpo structure on that union
05:21:06 <mnoqy> Bike: is the thing
05:21:19 <elliott> you need to say: what's the bottom; what's the ordering; what's the sup
05:21:34 <mnoqy> pff u dont need a bottom
05:21:41 <elliott> well you can steal a bottom
05:21:45 <elliott> but you still need to say what it is
05:21:46 <Bike> how about set inclusion where the greater cpo's order is an extension of the lesser's
05:21:52 <oerjan> hm these sups are supposed to be directed, it seems. then union is probably fine?
05:22:43 <elliott> "the idea" is that eventually I'll be able to do sup (iter (D |-> D -> D) _|_) where iter takes (a -> a) and a to (N -> a)
05:22:52 <shachaf> elliott: What are you doing, anyway?
05:22:54 <oerjan> that's weaker than dcpo...
05:22:56 <elliott> and get the D ~= D -> D domain and hence I'll have a domain for the untyped lambda calculus???
05:23:22 <coppro> elliott: untypedlambdacalculus.com
05:23:39 <coppro> elliott: what's the actual problem here?
05:23:51 <mnoqy> coppro: elliott wants the D ~= D -> D domain
05:24:07 <mnoqy> for the lambda calc's
05:24:35 <mnoqy> elliott is writing a denotatonal semantics for the lambda calc's
05:24:35 <coppro> and I'm too lazy to scrollback
05:25:19 <shachaf> conal knows everything about denotatinal semantics??
05:25:33 <shachaf> have you ever even met conal
05:26:32 <shachaf> hey how about this axiom::::::
05:26:33 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_uniformization
05:26:58 <coppro> elliott: do you mean you want a complete partial order of all cpos of a given set?
05:27:12 <shachaf> Quasistrategies and quasideterminacy
05:27:12 <shachaf> This section is still to be written
05:27:55 <elliott> i'm not even working in set theory
05:28:09 <coppro> you could just do it lexicographically
05:28:28 <mnoqy> are you sure you're even capable of helping at all
05:28:52 <mnoqy> elliott: better listen to this guy he knows what he's doing
05:29:25 <coppro> assuming you have some sensible way to represent it (higher-order classes or something)
05:31:13 <coppro> then your class of cpos is all pairs of the form (S, R) where S is a set and R is a relation defining the cpo. Since R \subset S^2, you can represent R as an element of 2^{|S|^2}.
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05:31:49 <elliott> but where's the cpo structure
05:32:04 <coppro> well, it depends what you're going for
05:32:28 <mnoqy> imo elliott should repeat his problem
05:32:48 <shachaf> imo mnoqy should share some wisdom with us
05:32:54 <coppro> like, do you have a cpo on sets defined?
05:32:58 <mnoqy> shachaf: ok ok if you really want it
05:33:10 <mnoqy> shachaf: - mnoqy wisdom
05:33:19 <HackEgo> mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
05:33:25 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
05:33:25 <elliott> well the actual sets themselves don't seem to factor into this... assuming <= gives inclusion or such
05:33:35 <coppro> but that's not complete
05:33:51 <mnoqy> elliott: the joke is that you throw away their cpo structure and toss on a new one by inclusion or what-not
05:34:03 <coppro> if you're working over ordinals, then you could do something sensible
05:34:04 <mnoqy> elliott: since your problem doesn't matter
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05:34:58 <coppro> but I don't see an obvious "correct" one
05:35:36 <coppro> for cpos over the some fixed set, you could do refinement/relaxation and both are complete I believe
05:35:40 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you ever going to be monqy again
05:35:47 <mnoqy> shachaf: whenever elliott sends monqy messages
05:36:09 <shachaf> @ask monqy hi we love you monqy we miss you at school
05:36:10 <coppro> (since you can just view them as subsets of S^2 and then the empty set and the powerset are minima and maxima
05:36:28 <coppro> and obviously the ordinals have a cpo built in.
05:36:50 <mnoqy> seriously i think you should read what elliott said about his actual issue
05:37:23 <mnoqy> too lazy to scrollback "not an excuse to go on an irrelevant tangent (doesn't that take more effort anyway?)"
05:37:46 <coppro> < elliott> tell me what the cpo of cpos is (does it exist?? I hear it does) and fix the coq problem that stops me defining it
05:37:50 <shachaf> help is a cotangent a dual of a tangent
05:38:10 <coppro> elliott: so yeah, if I'm not being helpful, please explain the problem better
05:38:14 <mnoqy> coppro: how about the part where he says what he's actualyl trying to do
05:38:22 <mnoqy> coppro: since he's said it!!! let's make it a game and find it
05:38:43 <elliott> well i'm particularly interested in what the cpo structure of the sup of a cpo \omega-chain looks like..... given inclusion or something as the ordering on cpos itself
05:39:09 <oerjan> shachaf: cotangent only exist in america, as do secant and cosecant. hth.
05:39:09 <coppro> elliott: the problem is you can't really define inclusion on cpos on unrelated sets unless you can relate those two sets
05:39:10 <mnoqy> it starts with "the idea" and ends with "lambda calculus"
05:39:22 <shachaf> oerjan: you know i suspected that it was american
05:39:32 <coppro> so you might as well assume you're working over ordinals I think?
05:39:33 <shachaf> oerjan: i never completely understood those functions
05:39:36 <elliott> coppro: if one cpo is included in another then clearly you have a subset...
05:39:40 <shachaf> oerjan: why do they exist in america
05:39:47 <elliott> (or a partial mapping function or whatever)
05:39:58 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i don't really know it's only american, but it's definitely not common in norway)
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05:40:40 <elliott> so I suppose you could define the ordering as existence of a monotonic mapping one way or such
05:41:00 <Bike_> gotta memorize those versine tables
05:41:28 <coppro> elliott: sorry, when you say inclusion, is {a, b} with the trivial ordering included in {a, b} with a <= b or the other way around?
05:42:49 <fizzie> @tell Fiora Apparently Meridian Lossless (and that Monkey thing, at least) are not strictly speaking LPC-based, because they have an IIR (not FIR) predictor block there. (And also there seems to be more variation when it comes to how they take advantage of inter-channel correlations between the algorithms.)
05:43:03 <elliott> I'm not actually sure which way the ordering goes
05:43:15 <coppro> ok, I'll assume it's as I described
05:43:19 <mnoqy> well it's the way where the sup of that chain gives you the thing you want
05:43:28 <coppro> then isn't the supremum the union of the sets plus the transitive closure of the union of the orderings?
05:43:29 <elliott> I suppose it depends on whether _|_ the cpo's set is the empty set or (an arbitrary) singleton set
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05:44:20 <elliott> coppro: what's the sup operation in the cpo that results in?
05:44:35 <coppro> elliott: does not parse
05:44:48 <elliott> well, sup goes from an \omega-chain of cpos to a cpo
05:44:57 <elliott> so for sup's result to be a cpo, it has to have a sup operation defined
05:45:17 <coppro> man, I missed the problem
05:45:26 <coppro> uh, I'll need to think about this one
05:46:18 <coppro> I'll start with definitions; (S_1, R_1) <= (S_2, R_2) if S_1 \subseteq S_2 and R_1 \subseteq R_2, right?
05:46:28 <coppro> (just to formalize what I think we have)
05:47:19 <elliott> you might want to include the sup function in that definition
05:47:23 <elliott> although I guess it's unique
05:47:57 <coppro> well the sup function is built in to each of (S_1, R_1) and (S_2, R_2)
05:48:15 <coppro> I'm assuming R_1 and R_2 to be cpos here
05:48:26 <coppro> ok well there's the obvious cop-out
05:49:04 <coppro> you can just define the sup of an \omega-chain to be \bigcup_{i=1}^\infty S_i \cup {x} for some x \notin S_i for all i \in \omega
05:49:15 <coppro> and make x be a maximal element
05:49:27 <coppro> then it's always the supremum
05:49:58 <elliott> err, does that satisfy the least upper bound part? I don't get it
05:50:42 <coppro> define the relation in the supremum to be \bigcup_{i=1}^\infty R_i \cup { (s, x) : s \in S_i for some i \in \omega }
05:51:16 <coppro> because then for any \omega-chain inside S, x will always be greater than every element
05:51:41 <coppro> (and you can pick x uniquely by making it the least ordinal not in any of the sets or something)
05:52:06 <coppro> but generally I think you need some cop-out like that
05:52:55 <coppro> hang on, I'm going to mathbin a pathological case
05:57:51 <coppro> http://mathbin.net/163618
05:58:06 <coppro> so clearly inclusion is not the ordering
05:58:13 <coppro> also ignore what I said about defining sup differently
05:58:50 <coppro> the ^n should be inside the bracket
05:59:02 <coppro> corrected version in reply
05:59:12 <elliott> i will observe when my browser stops freezing
06:01:34 <coppro> basically the idea is to pick a subset of the natural numbers so that each chain has finitely many distinct elements
06:02:08 <coppro> err, subordering (is that a word?)
06:02:19 <coppro> but then the union is all the naturals, which have no upper bound
06:03:23 <coppro> if you don't like "finite" there, you could do it with \omega^2 and do it "modulo" powers of omega rather than 2
06:04:49 <elliott> is that \omega-chain actually properly ordered?
06:05:40 <coppro> yes, because if n is congruent to m modulo some power of 2, then it is also congruent to m modulo any smaller power of 2
06:06:20 <elliott> maybe the ordering on cpos needs to be different
06:06:35 <coppro> if a cpo of cpos exists, it must be
06:06:53 <oerjan> if things depend on which choices you make, then they're usually not natural constructions
06:06:55 <coppro> but you clearly want it to the underlying cpos, right?
06:07:24 <elliott> perhaps reversing it works?
06:08:02 <coppro> you mean the same as before except we require that R_1 \supseteq R_2 rather than \subseteq?
06:08:35 <mnoqy> elliott: are you sure this will even solve your problem
06:08:43 <mnoqy> i actually took a second to think about your chain and
06:08:54 <elliott> mnoqy: im ok with diversions
06:09:08 <elliott> iirc reading somewhere that a cpo of cpo type things get you the fixed points you need tho
06:09:23 <elliott> coppro: right (and similarly the Ses)
06:09:55 <oerjan> vague idea for what would be natural: the sup of your chain of cpo's should be equal to their categorical limit when you let inclusions be your morphisms
06:10:09 <elliott> ye limits being involved makes sense
06:10:14 <oerjan> or colimit, i never quite remember which is which
06:10:15 <elliott> since that's how you get the recursive cpos more "naturally"
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06:11:30 <mnoqy> colimits are "lubs" (have "injections") and limits are "glbs" (have "projections")
06:11:34 <coppro> elliott: I think that works
06:11:44 <oerjan> mnoqy: probably colimit then
06:11:46 <coppro> since the chain would also be a chain in every (S_i, R_i) pair
06:12:05 <coppro> it would have a supremum
06:12:19 <coppro> it might not be the same in each set, but ... wait, nope, this doesn't work either
06:12:32 <mnoqy> wouldn't colimit make more sense
06:12:45 <coppro> elliott: let S_i = \omega \cdot 2 for all i
06:13:18 <oerjan> i keep confusing with the morphisms out of the limit that give the universal property
06:14:01 <mnoqy> i just remember by products are limits and coproducts are colimits
06:14:05 <coppro> let R_0 be the usual ordering, and let R_{i+1} be R_i except \omega + i is made unordered
06:14:26 <coppro> then the supremum has every element \omega or bigger being unordered, so \omega itself has no supremum
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06:16:09 <oerjan> mnoqy: i just remember they're the opposite way of what i'd have defined them to start with, and _then_ i start getting confused :P
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06:18:49 <coppro> it's quite possible the category theoretical approach makes more sense and possibly works
06:19:03 <coppro> to date, I've not had the chance to actually get a decent understanding of category theory
06:19:11 <coppro> since I keep getting distracted by math actually taught at my school
06:19:27 <shachaf> Category theory is indecent, anyway.
06:19:43 <oerjan> well category theoretical approaches tell you a unique property of what you want, but usually leaves with the work of proving it actually exists.
06:22:20 <mnoqy> category theory's pretty cool, pretty cool. i'm learning all about monoids
06:22:54 <shachaf> elliott.........................................................
06:26:56 <elliott> oerjan: so about this categorical construction... :P
06:27:14 <shachaf> did someone say something about categorical constructions
06:27:38 <mnoqy> shachaf: remember elliott's cpo of cpos
06:27:53 <mnoqy> well you're in for a big treat
06:27:56 <oerjan> elliott: well _if_ the cpo exists in the categorical sense, then it is probably the right thing.
06:28:38 <mnoqy> cpo of "small" cpos
06:28:57 <elliott> i got a universe inconsistency when defining it in coq :')
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06:45:02 <shachaf> Bike: What's sw2wolf all about?
06:45:20 <Bike> never reading the manual, ever? i dunno
06:45:50 <shachaf> Or is that just in the other channel?
06:46:32 <Bike> Well, in #lisp often he asks about stumpwm, a window manager.
06:47:01 <Bike> «<jpaugh> sw2wolf: programming is too abstract. That's why only programmers do it.» so glad i looked at these logs
06:54:00 <elliott> * sw2wolf bad luck to encounter wai-app-file-cgi-0.8.3 :(
06:54:14 <elliott> <sw2wolf> @package wai-app-file-cgi-0.8.3
06:55:41 <Bike> i can only just barely understand whatever he's talking about, and that's only sometimes
06:56:23 <ais523> we need another IRC-based esolang
06:56:36 <ais523> and not like the one that's designed to look like IRC logs either
06:56:46 <ais523> rather, it takes place as apparently random comments across many different channels
06:56:56 <ais523> that make no sense out of context, or even in context really
06:56:57 <Bike> i think that's called a botnet dude
06:57:02 <Bike> not that i'm opposed
06:57:12 <ais523> yeah, a bit like the way botnets work
06:57:38 <Bike> actually a steganographic botnet C&C system sounds pretty neat
06:57:51 <shachaf> this is actually a bilingual pun????????
06:58:01 <shachaf> "bots" means mud in hebrew
06:58:02 <elliott> <sw2wolf> shachaf: are you the channel controller ?
06:58:09 <elliott> Bike: are they this good in #lisp
06:59:09 <shachaf> So God said to some of the bots, "Sit up!"
06:59:22 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a bot?
06:59:22 <fungot> fizzie: write me a sf account?
06:59:34 <Bike> * sw2wolf I know CL step by step by hacking STUMPWM. It seems other lisp dialects cannot provide such a real app. for you to tweak :)
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06:59:48 <fungot> fizzie: what's wrong with having a few instructions in the readme in that ftp archive i pointed to, since it has a ridiculous limit on the number of times
06:59:53 <elliott> I hate stumpwm because I watched a video of it once
06:59:55 <Bike> ais523: you'd have to be pretty shrewd to avoid getting banned (network or channel) for spaming, I think.
06:59:57 <elliott> and the fucking guy pronounced it like
07:00:09 <Bike> * sw2wolf maybe it is easy to understand symbol to regard it as Memory Address ?
07:00:54 <Bike> hm i have said way too many things to this guy
07:01:11 <oerjan> surely it should be stumpduddlyyem
07:01:55 <Bike> < sw2wolf> macro-syntax: Scheme seems elegant than CL, but few applications developed using Scheme compared with CL
07:02:14 <Bike> ok he tried to talk to rudybot for like ten minutes once
07:02:27 <Bike> rudybot is not in the channel, needless to say
07:04:11 <elliott> Bike: well he is right. scheme is way better than cl.
07:04:33 <Bike> sw2wolf is right
07:04:48 <Bike> elliott: are you the lisp controller ?
07:05:27 <elliott> and i'm as easy as monoisd
07:06:44 <oerjan> thith lithp ith outh oth conthrol
07:07:23 <Bike> maybe i should make an esolang called "rhoticism".
07:08:30 <elliott> Randall Ahmed is the name he loves to be called with but it's not the most masucline name out there. After being out of his job for years he became a database administrator. Doing 3d graphics is the thing he loves most. His wife and him chose to reside in American Samoa. His wife and he maintain a website. You might want to check it out: http://ti-89.org/wiki/?title=Acute_and_recurring_pain_studied
07:09:14 <elliott> ais523: a page you deleted yesterday
07:09:43 <ais523> I guess if that sort of spam happens more, I can also disallow one-liners that end with a link
07:09:50 <elliott> from the name. to the comment on the name. to the job and love.
07:09:56 <elliott> to the location. to the wording of the location.
07:10:16 <ais523> I admit not reading it more than was necessary to establish it was spam
07:10:42 <ais523> btw, it's likely linking to a spam page on a legitimate wiki
07:10:57 <elliott> the domain is squatted by a hosting company.
07:11:17 <elliott> it would have been even better if it linked to a spam page on a wiki about TI-89 calculators, really
07:11:32 <Bike> if it linked to a totally normal wiki page on ti89s
07:11:35 <shachaf> (answer: yes i can "inside joke")
07:11:59 <ais523> Bike: that reminds me of the spambot who was spamming links to google.com
07:12:06 <ais523> as [google.com google]
07:12:12 <ais523> my guess is it was a spambot author testing something
07:12:19 <ais523> and using it as an example.com substitute
07:12:27 <ais523> err, [http://google.com google]
07:12:30 <shachaf> Google trying to increase their PageRank?
07:12:31 <oerjan> shachaf: be careful, soon elliott may be desperate enough to make you one
07:12:44 <shachaf> oerjan: i would do absolutely nothing
07:13:04 <ais523> oerjan: actually we have basically no spam edits now
07:13:14 <ais523> the spam filters on edits are holding very effectively
07:13:22 <oerjan> ais523: and _still_ recent changes is overrun :P
07:13:24 <ais523> however, the CAPTCHA isn't, so we get a lot of spam registrations
07:13:34 <elliott> i'll work on it soon, promise
07:14:12 <ais523> oerjan: I can adjust the edit filter, but only elliott can adjust the CAPTCHA
07:14:35 <ais523> elliott: fwiw, I have a strong suspicion that making the answers change over time would defeat the spambot reasonably comprehensively
07:14:37 <oerjan> CAPTCHA: Write a 200 word essay on why spamming should carry the death penalty. Be convincing.
07:14:51 <ais523> even if it's something as simple as "what number is the day within the month?"
07:15:00 <elliott> ais523: well if there's a human...
07:15:05 <ais523> because I suspect it's working from a framework designed to attack MediaWiki in particular but not Esolang in particular
07:15:15 <elliott> i wish i knew about limits and stuff. properly.
07:15:16 <ais523> and that human involvement is used to compile answers initially, but not beyond that
07:15:22 <elliott> ais523: they'll just adjust the answers, I suspect
07:15:35 <ais523> well it'll waste more of their time than it will of ours
07:15:42 <ais523> and that's how all antispam measures work, eventually
07:15:58 <elliott> I was considering blocking the user-agent from registering if it's distinctive
07:16:13 <shachaf> elliott: Limits as in categories?
07:16:16 <ais523> elliott: from my checkusering, it appears to be faking common browser user-agents
07:16:22 <ais523> but not in a particularly consistent way
07:16:34 <elliott> ais523: well, it's fairly likely there's *some* distinctive mark
07:16:58 <ais523> elliott: I guess… check which order the fields are submitte din
07:17:15 <ais523> then see if we can reorder them in the HTML and see if the spambots still reorder them in their automated submissions
07:17:19 <elliott> ais523: btw, this kind of thing acts as motivation for me to rewrite the wiki software, so mediawiki spambots have no hope :P
07:17:33 <elliott> (though updating mediawiki acts as an even greater motivation there.)
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08:30:02 <Fiora> fizzie: oooh, inter-channel correlation. that makes sense given that blu-ray loves things like 5.1 and 7.1
08:30:03 <lambdabot> Fiora: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:30:20 <Fiora> I often forget non-stereo audio exists <.<
08:38:15 <fizzie> Even for stereo signals, one benefits from encoding them non-independently.
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08:40:27 <fizzie> FLAC seems to have four encoding modes for pairs of stereo channels -- independent, mid-side ((left+right)/2 and left-right), left-side (left and right-left) and right-side (right and left-right).
08:40:35 <elliott> something about joint stereo??
08:41:49 <fizzie> I think lossy formats' joint-stereo mode is something slightly more elaborate than just the mid+side approach. But that's just a hunch.
08:42:44 <fizzie> Something closer to having the averaged signal, plus some parameters for panning the subbands.
08:42:52 <shachaf> oerjan: greetings from the past
08:43:51 <Fiora> wow, that's a lot of modes. I only know of mid-side
08:44:20 <fizzie> Fiora: "Surprisingly, the left-side and right-side forms can be the most efficient in many frames, even though the raw number of bits per sample needed for the original signal is slightly more than that needed for independent or mid-side coding." (FLAC format docs.)
08:45:32 <elliott> i am so glad people know about lossless audio compression so i don't have to
08:45:41 <Fiora> why @_@ this sounds really cool!
08:46:00 <elliott> it's not that i don't want to
08:46:15 <elliott> so if i had to know about it, right now i would be sitting with a big ol pile of wav files
08:46:23 <shachaf> hey i want to know about audio compression
08:46:25 <Fiora> one thing I remember is that like, 24-bit audio is often more than twice as large as 16-bit in lossless
08:46:41 <Fiora> because the low bits have way more entropy than the high ones, since they're noisier and harder to LPC-predict
08:46:58 <fizzie> Fiora: Looking at the actual bits, though, it appears as if (in FLAC) you can only use the channel intercorrelation parts for stereo files. There doesn't seem to be an encoding for using any of those modes when there are >2 channels. (I might be wrong about this.)
08:47:01 <Fiora> I think it's the same with like 16-bit PNG vs 8-bit PNG being like a gazillion times larger
08:47:06 <elliott> i read a Monty thing where he went on about 24 bit being pointless
08:47:33 <elliott> "Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space." wham
08:47:35 <Fiora> ahhhh. I remember that being like a problem with vorbis too, like, it wasn't designed for many-channel modes originally or something. and I guess mp3 too?
08:47:46 <elliott> "Responses indicate that few people understand basic signal theory or the sampling theorem, which is hardly surprising." boom??
08:49:35 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't know the historical background, but it supports 1-8 independent channels (channel assignment codes 0..7), or the three special stereo modes mentioned above (codes 8..10); just not a generic "here's more than two channels and they're actually correlated too" thing.
08:49:56 <Fiora> Yeah, that makes sense...
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08:51:34 <fizzie> ALAC can do 32 bits per sample.
08:51:47 <fizzie> I'm sure there's someone somewhere storing their audio as IEEE 754 doubles.
08:54:31 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the S/PDIF stream is "natively" 20 bits/sample, but you can stretch it to 24 bits, except then the extra bits are stuck in some less logical places and ignored by some devices.
08:57:49 <Fiora> how does channel correlation work between more than 2 channels?
08:57:57 <Fiora> 2 channels seems to be a nice "easy" case where you can just do, like, mid-side
08:58:05 <Fiora> but more dimensions makes things messier I'd guess
08:58:30 <fizzie> You could certainly do just one main channel and all the others as differences, in hopes that the (presumably small) difference channels compress better.
08:58:35 <Fiora> I guess you could have some kind of N*M-dimensional predictor, where N is your LPC order and M is the number of channels, but that sounds painful
09:01:23 <fizzie> Presumably you could also share the predictor coefficients, but that doesn't sound like a likely gain.
09:03:02 <Fiora> I meant, like, normally one channel only predicts from itself, right? but instead you could have coefficients for how every channel predicts from every other channel in combination or something
09:03:15 <Fiora> (that sounds like it'd balloon fast)
09:03:46 <fizzie> You could look at http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/mlp_jap_new.PDF for what MLP does -- it seems to use a quite generic series of transformations for the channel decorrelation.
09:05:07 <quintopia> how is my little pny's channel decorrelated? as far as i know, it always airs on the same channel. that's a pretty strong correlation.
09:05:28 <Fiora> ohhh, a matrix thing.
09:05:49 <fizzie> A matrix thing except with some wrinkles to make it lossless.
09:06:22 <Fiora> this is reminiscent of um... what was it called
09:07:12 <Fiora> RGB->YUV uses like those decimal coefficients that have rounding errors, while YCgCo uses a formula that's invertible, so you can use it to decorrelate the 3 RGB channels for lossless compression
09:07:55 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/5/1/e5195697a23c4f8ef9d4b7af745df9a2.png
09:12:23 <HackEgo> 843) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
09:12:31 <shachaf> I went to a talk about JPEG compression once.
09:13:10 <shachaf> JPEG compression is complicated. :-(
09:13:14 <olsner> throw in some DCT and huffman, mix it around until it says JPEG?
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09:13:41 <shachaf> More complicated than, say, LZW.
09:14:12 <fizzie> olsner: Also a zigzag, I remember the zigzag.
09:14:34 <Fiora> and the scan order thing, where you can have like multiple huffman tables
09:15:00 <Fiora> (which was intended for progressive but you can kind of throw anything at it or something?)
09:15:02 <fizzie> (Zigzag referring to the ordering of the quantized block DCT coefficient so that all the zeros are at the end.)
09:15:57 <Fiora> http://vsr.informatik.tu-chemnitz.de/~jan/MPEG/HTML/zigzag.gif zigzags!'
09:16:13 <fizzie> JPEG 2000 can do lossless, I think.
09:16:16 <olsner> that's all part of the "mixing around" step :P
09:16:32 <fizzie> And it's still wavelets when it's lossless, or something.
09:16:45 <fizzie> JPEG 2000 is, like, this millennium, man.
09:16:59 <Fiora> I think jpeg had a lossless mode too?
09:17:03 <shachaf> No, this millenium started in 2001.
09:17:04 <Fiora> but nobody used it (?)
09:17:10 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_JPEG ah
09:17:29 <shachaf> Fiora: Did you watch any more Look Around You?
09:17:41 <Fiora> um... no I haven't
09:18:28 <fizzie> Fiora: Hey, JPEG2k also has a modified reversible YUV variant for the lossless mode. (The default mode does Y'CbCr.)
09:18:43 <Fiora> does it do like ycgco, or something else?
09:19:09 <fizzie> Looking at the numbers, it seems pretty similar.
09:19:33 <fizzie> At least the Y channel's the same.
09:20:08 <shachaf> Number? We're not pulling teeth 'ere!
09:20:17 <Fiora> I remember the tricky thing with YCgCo is that it requires 1 extra bit of range in the Cg and Co channels
09:20:36 <Fiora> (while like yuv doesn't)
09:20:59 <fizzie> The chroma channels seem different; It has C_B = B-G and C_R = R-G.
09:20:59 <Fiora> the logic being something like "only ~1/4 of YUV maps to valid RGB, so to losslessly represent RGB, the YUV space has to be about 4 times bigger"
09:21:13 <Fiora> wow, that almost sounds like mid-side XD
09:21:34 <fizzie> While Y is the same (R+2G+B)/4 like in YCgCo.
09:22:36 <fizzie> Then you get just G = Y - floor((C_B + C_R)/4) for the reverse.
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09:26:36 <fizzie> Not that I've ever come across a .jp2/.jpx file anywhere, so it's perhaps all a bit academic.
09:27:07 <shachaf> imo Gregor shouldn't have voice
09:27:25 <Fiora> but academic stuff is fun
09:27:54 <shachaf> What, like "publish-or-perish"?
09:28:52 <fizzie> Here's a nice peek at Linux development practices (courtesy of a different #channel): http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel.pci/21634
09:29:36 <fizzie> I'm sure it's also in your Diddits or whatevers that you use these days.
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09:39:41 <shachaf> Fiora: You should come back to #fiora!
09:40:15 <Fiora> um, I recreated it as ##fiora
09:40:18 <Fiora> so that I could register it
09:43:34 <fizzie> Freenode should designate a prefix (###?) so that each account has an autocreated, autoregistered "nick channel" automatically.
09:43:52 <fizzie> Also possibly some kind of a service that says nice things about the person in question on that channel every now and then.
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10:15:37 <itsy> I just invented a new Esolang :-)
10:22:44 <itsy> < increment the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> > decrement the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> - increment the byte at the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> + decrement the byte at the data pointer
10:22:44 <itsy> , output the byte at the data pointer
10:22:45 <itsy> . accept one byte of input
10:22:45 <itsy> ] if the data pointer points to zero, jump to the matching [
10:22:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input `data'
10:22:46 <itsy> [ if the data pointer points to nonzero, jump to the matching ]
10:22:46 <itsy> ^ change polarity, switch < with > and - with +
10:23:38 -!- itsy has left.
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10:35:29 <fizzie> Can you think what would have happened, had Phantom_Hoover been here? We really dodged a brick there.
10:37:03 <fizzie> "Category:Brainfuck derivatives: The following 109 pages are in this category, out of 109 total."
10:37:17 <fizzie> (18 in Category:Brainfuck equivalents.)
10:38:32 <Deewiant> itsy seems to have been impomatic
10:42:53 <Deewiant> impomatic (~digital_w@87.115.210.249) has left #esoteric
10:44:44 <fizzie> Perhaps it was just someone living in the same household, or something.
10:45:02 <elliott> hiding his secret identity as a bf derivative author
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10:54:26 <HackEgo> lastlog: unexpected argument: taneb \ Usage: lastlog [options] \ \ Options: \ -b, --before DAYS print only lastlog records older than DAYS \ -h, --help display this help message and exit \ -t, --time DAYS print only lastlog records more recent than DAYS \ -u, --user LOGIN print last
10:54:35 <Whtspc> any first comments on my sketch esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Geharrewar ??
10:55:54 <Whtspc> is there something fresh in it, or is it a copy of dusty ideas :)?
10:56:08 <fizzie> TikZ is the BesT. Even if it ist kein Zeichenprogramm.
10:58:02 <fizzie> That thing reminds me of Fueue, except that Fueue is perhaps somewhat more user-unfriendly.
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13:21:02 <fizzie> Did some of you people speak of Antichamber, the game? Something called that is -50% off in Steam today.
13:22:14 <quintopia> find me a computer capable of running it for 50% off
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13:24:19 <fizzie> http://www.itsco.de/computer/fujitsu_siemens_pcs/pc_fujitsu_siemens_esprimo_p5625_amd_athlon_64_x2_5600_2x_29ghz_i8_8233_0.htm there you go, I'm sure that's at least 50% off the original price.
13:24:41 <fizzie> (I just took the system requirements from Steam, and selected the first hit at itsco.de that had marginally bigger numbers.)
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13:30:56 <fizzie> I think I have a computer very much like that, except with twice the RAM and two dozen times the disk space. Maybe it would be time to upgrade one day.
13:36:18 <Fiora> antichamber is really really wonderful
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13:41:48 <fizzie> Would Haswell be a nice microarchitecture to upgrade to, from Windsor (one of the Athlon 64 X2's)? Aren't those supposed to come out soon? I'm sure you guys follow these things.
13:41:59 <fizzie> Also related, I need a hat. What's a good hat'chitecture?
13:43:58 <Fiora> geez that would be a pretty huge upgrade
13:44:09 <Fiora> but yeah, haswell seems pretty nice?
13:45:58 <fizzie> I hear it has New Instructions.
13:47:56 <boily> DoublePlusMorphism?
13:48:25 <Fiora> new instructions~~
13:48:47 <Fiora> BMI1, BMI2, AVX2, SMEP, FSGSBASE, TSX, oh my!
13:48:53 <elliott> so are those haswell things coming out soon?
13:49:03 <fizzie> I think someone said something about summer somewhere.
13:49:06 <elliott> i just want, like, a new computer. someday.
13:49:27 <elliott> hm july is in like a week. roughly.
13:49:41 <Fiora> apparently the mobile and desktop ones are both coming out?
13:49:49 <elliott> too bad they'll cost about a week when they come up.
13:49:54 <elliott> come out, i mean. i guess come up too.
13:50:02 <elliott> they design intel processors under the sea, presumably
13:50:38 <fizzie> Yes, there's the early adopter fee.
13:50:44 <boily> ~eval 60 * 24 * 7 / 30
13:51:15 <Fiora> you could also probably grab an ivy bridge after the price drop?
13:52:40 <fizzie> Fiora: But our household already has a Sandy Bridge (my laptop) and an Ivy Bridge (my wife's laptop), isn't there something called... what was it... Intel Exclusion Principle, that in one house you can't have more than one quantum something something, and so I couldn't get another Ivy Bridge.
13:53:28 <fizzie> It's like Intel systems are fermions and AMD ones are bosons.
13:53:32 <fizzie> (I'm not a physicist.)
13:53:42 <Fiora> wait if you already have those two why do you need another @_@
13:53:55 <Fiora> that's a lot of fast computers
13:54:25 <boily> it's like: I already have two raspberries, and I want to have a udoo too.
13:54:37 <fizzie> Those are both laptops, I'd like to upgrade my desktop compumator too. There's more dick space in it, for one thing.
13:55:32 <Fiora> upgrade, though? won't you have to pretty much replace everything anyways?
13:55:38 <fizzie> I keep using it for web surfing, and it keeps going all swappy, and I can't fit more memory in it except maybe with a hammer.
13:56:00 <fizzie> It'll go in the same box, it's still an upgrade.
13:56:21 <fizzie> Also, I think I can keep the disks for now.
13:57:36 <Fiora> New graphics card, too...?
13:58:10 <fizzie> It'd probably count as an upgrade even if I kept the integrated GPU.
13:58:33 <fizzie> It has a passive-cooled Geforce 7600 in it at the moment.
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13:58:38 <fizzie> That's a few generations old.
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13:59:34 * Fiora tries to figure out which generation that was from
13:59:49 <Fiora> yeah... wow. geeez. that was a long time ago
14:00:23 <Fiora> that's ~6-7 generations old... wow
14:00:30 <Fiora> it's been a long time...
14:02:31 <fizzie> The desktop is that old because last upgrade cycle, the iBook G4 I had for a laptop was starting to show signs of age (like disk errors), and I needed a working laptop for occasional travelling, so I went with the kind of laptop that also sort of served for occasional gamery purposes.
14:02:57 <fizzie> I suppose it was a bit of a compromise (esp. w.r.t. portability), but it's worked just fine.
14:03:34 <elliott> does 6-7 generations mean like, 3 years
14:03:37 <Fiora> It looks like you're right, I think, the Intel HD 4000 on the ivy bridge is like, 3x faster than the 7600 GS
14:03:44 <Fiora> and the haswell's supposed to be a bunch better
14:04:33 <Fiora> ummm I think the 7000 series was from like 2005
14:04:44 <Fiora> which is somehow 8 years ago now
14:05:22 <fizzie> Looking at release dates in Wikipedia, both the graphics card and the CPU seem to be from around 2005-2006. Maybe 2007, they weren't the very newest thing when I got them.
14:05:58 <elliott> i can buy 2005 being 8 years ago. what doesn't make any sense is that 2008 was 5 years ago.
14:06:46 <fizzie> Yeah, you can't just change the digits around like that.
14:11:31 <fizzie> What about the hat, though, are there any leaked roadmaps showing new hat architectures just around the corner? I need it before June.
14:15:20 <fizzie> (It should be more or less opaque, and preferrably it should make me look only as stupid as necessary, up to a constant factor, in case that matters.)
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15:48:17 <Deewiant> 18.16:54:37 fizzie | Those are both laptops, I'd like to upgrade my desktop compumator too. There's more dick space in it, for one thing.
15:48:28 <Deewiant> Was that an intentional choice of words?
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15:57:23 <fizzie> Deewiant: Though it's also true literally.
15:57:43 <fizzie> I would hesitate to stick a dick in the laptop.
15:58:04 <fizzie> Well, maybe the desktop too, all those spinning fans.
15:58:33 <Taneb> All the spinning fans
16:01:02 <boily> you could do it the mythbusters way and stick a ballistic gel dick in your various machines.
16:03:04 <fizzie> Mythbusters, shouldn't they be starting 2013 episodes one of these days?
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16:05:04 <Phantom_Hoover> could you use ballistic gel to approximate a dick anyway
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16:11:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, that sounds like a question for the Mythbusters
16:12:57 <Taneb> Perhaps a question for Brainiac: Science Abuse
16:13:00 <Taneb> Do they still make that?
16:13:04 <Taneb> I don't think they do
16:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i met dr bunhead once and he was just like "yeah i mean it's all bullshit"
16:14:11 <fizzie> Was that the show where they faked the alkali metal thing?
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16:14:33 <fizzie> That's the only thing I know about it.
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16:17:25 <fizzie> "The entire left-most column of the periodic table (not counting hydrogen) is composed of elements that are great fun to throw in a lake --" interesting way of classifying elements.
16:17:38 <fizzie> And who's to say throwing some hydrogen in a lake wouldn't be fun?
16:18:08 <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately, the way it works out is that the explosive potential peaks at sodium and potassium
16:18:16 <Taneb> "One, two, three! Oh, it just floated away"
16:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> because rubidium and caesium are less dense and have a higher molar mass, so they produce less hydrogen
16:19:59 <kmc> i'm sure that's what mendeleev had in mind
16:23:30 <fizzie> "This unpredictability makes sodium arguably the most dangerous of the alkali metals in inexperienced hands (soon to be inexperienced stumps)." This page has a tone.
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16:28:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (this also means that all the "so if you put francium into water it would BLOW UP ALL THE THINGS EVER" line of thinking is completely wrong)
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17:06:43 <pikhq_> fizzie: If you've got liquid hydrogen I dare-say it'd be quite fun.
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17:43:04 <elliott> The first tools for solving such equations were provided by Scott using his inverse
17:43:07 <elliott> limit constructions [33]. Later he showed how the inverse limits could be entirely
17:43:10 <elliott> avoided by using a universal domain and the ordinary least fixed point construction
17:44:04 <elliott> data types as lattices here i go
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18:27:35 <boily> French spam is back on the wiki!
18:28:41 <boily> hm, since feb. 15 you can get metal goats. sounds interesting.
18:30:47 <Taneb> Does the French spam make more or less sense than the average English spam
18:31:50 <boily> it does. it's like fungot, but with a better and clearer markov-chainy feel.
18:31:50 <fungot> boily: thanks for the link
18:32:03 <boily> fungot: I ain't linked nothing yet, you baka!
18:32:03 <fungot> boily: another way, did you know... just lazy i guess you wouldn't know about many books that i here are " it isn't an illusion, you are duplicating effort.
18:32:19 <boily> fungot: oh. sorry. my bad!
18:32:19 <fungot> boily: so chicken is very practical, ie it gets your work done early then that means the probability is the absolute limit
18:32:44 <olsner> fungot: do you eat chicken?
18:32:44 <fungot> olsner: it'd be an fnord
18:33:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:33:00 <boily> chicken is good, but pork is better.
18:33:24 <FireFly> fungot: rainy today, don't you think?
18:33:24 <fungot> FireFly: time it before and somehow got the impression that the latest aol " 1099 hours free" cds come in are neat in themselves.
18:33:46 <FireFly> fungot: that's a lot of hours
18:33:46 <fungot> FireFly: my own one, and i ran against a wall, then back to new tabs on the other
18:34:05 <metasepia> CYUL 181800Z 13020KT 15SM FEW030 OVC057 07/03 A3006 RMK SC1SC7 PRESFR SLP180
18:34:11 <kmc> i read 'metal ghosts'
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18:35:50 <kmc> i mean that i read something someone said above as 'metal ghosts'
18:36:06 <elliott> metal ghosts would be a good name for something
18:36:56 <boily> kmc: that someone would be me, I think.
18:37:23 <olsner> I think I'd like metal goats better
18:37:25 <boily> I still prefer the goat version. less dangerous, and conforms to walls and (usually) don't try to pass through them.
18:37:36 <boily> olsner: great to see I'm not alone.
18:41:37 <kmc> if a metal ghost passes through your computer, does the computer crash
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18:42:48 <boily> does the metal from the ghost conduct electricity?
18:47:42 <metasepia> EFHK 181820Z 19017KT 9999 -RA OVC030 09/06 Q1000 TEMPO 6000 RA
18:48:31 <Taneb> Will I ever get in trouble for understanding a monoid as a Haskell Monoid?
18:48:41 <fizzie> It's -RA'ing, and I guess the trend is RA too?
18:49:12 <boily> fizzie: yes, a TEMPO means a temporary change.
18:49:26 <elliott> Taneb: a monoid is just a one-object category!
18:49:46 <Taneb> What would a zero-object category be
18:50:08 <metasepia> EGNT 181820Z 25020G30KT 9999 FEW017 SCT025 09/04 Q1005
18:51:14 <boily> fizzie: «Temporary fluctuation in some of the elements lasting for periods of
18:51:16 <boily> 30 minutes or more but not longer than one hour with each instance and does
18:51:18 <boily> not cover more than half of the total period indicated by HHHH.»
18:51:34 <fizzie> 25020G30KT -> wind direction 250 degrees, 20 knots, up to 30 in gusts?
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18:52:47 <fizzie> I still don't know what the 9999 is. Visibility?
18:53:23 <olsner> maybe they sneak in nonsense tokens to expose the outsiders
18:54:10 <boily> fizzie: ground visibility. 9999 means nothing to worry about.
18:54:19 <Taneb> olsner, isn't that supposed to be how society began or something
18:54:35 <boily> with north american METARs, you may see something like 24 or 30SM.
18:54:39 <metasepia> CYUL 181800Z 13020KT 15SM FEW030 OVC057 07/03 A3006 RMK SC1SC7 PRESFR SLP180
18:54:57 <boily> oh, a delicious PRESFR!
18:55:13 <fizzie> A3006 was in sillyunits?
18:55:23 <fizzie> (There was a discussion.)
18:56:34 <boily> millimetres of mercury.
18:57:26 <boily> one atmosphere at 25 °C is 29.97 inHg.
18:57:36 <fizzie> At least the temperature was still in Celsius.
19:00:06 <fizzie> What's the SC1SC7 at CYUL?
19:00:59 <boily> one okta of stratocumulus at 3000' and seven oktas of the same at 5700'.
19:01:33 <fizzie> Oh, so it's an addition to the FEW030 OVC057 part?
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19:05:00 <nooodl> Taneb: in a zero object category you'd have no arrows either "it'd be pretty boring"
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19:46:49 <FireFly> Taneb, nooodl: wouldn't a zero-object category be an initial object in Cat? i.e. there's a functor from it to every other small category
19:47:05 <FireFly> which might make it a bit less boring
19:47:19 <FireFly> I dunno, I'm mostly curious if I got things wrong or not
19:47:44 <Taneb> FireFly, I have no idea
19:47:54 <nooodl> Similarly, the category of all small categories with functors as morphisms has the empty category as initial object ...
19:49:43 <kmc> Taneb: it depends what you mean by "Haskell monoid". there's nothing in the language to check that your Monoid instance satisfies the laws
19:50:24 <Taneb> kmc, well, assuming total functions, a Haskell monoid satisfies closure at least
19:50:37 <Taneb> But other than that...
19:50:50 <Taneb> type + _|_ I think has to be closed?
19:51:17 <Taneb> kmc, I'm not quite sure what I'm saying
19:51:38 <Taneb> It doesn't check that mempty is the identity of mappend, or that mappend is associative
19:51:48 <kmc> i think if you write «instance Monoid Foo» then you are only really claiming to satisfy the laws for non-⊥ elements of Foo
19:52:05 <kmc> and maybe even only for elements of Foo that don't contain a ⊥ anywhere
19:52:14 <kmc> Haskell programmers usually gloss over these issues when talking about typeclass laws
19:53:12 <kmc> you'll often have a situation where (⊥ `mappend` mempty) ≠ ⊥, as well
19:53:35 <Taneb> > undefined `mappend` () :: ()
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19:56:55 <elliott> fast and loose reasoning is morally correct ect.
19:57:02 <elliott> of course i've never read that paper but i can cite it anyway and also im so fuckign tired
19:59:09 <kmc> i do Compose B B with my ~/.XCompose
19:59:33 <kmc> https://github.com/kmcallister/math-compose
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20:03:04 <nooodl> wow <Multi_key> <period> <asterisk> : "∙" U2219
20:05:13 <olsner> hmm, a 1h documentary about alan davies measuring the length of a piece of string
20:05:41 <Taneb> (I've just remembered how fun the Alt Gr key can be)
20:07:42 <Taneb> I seem to be watching some sort of US news comedy show
20:08:04 <Taneb> Not Stephen Colbert
20:08:06 <kmc> is it the daily show
20:08:08 <kmc> with jon stewart
20:08:33 <Taneb> It's got some guy with grey hair and a purple-ish tie
20:09:01 <Fiora> http://bpr.berkeley.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jon-stewart.jpg ?
20:09:37 <kmc> i went to a filming of the daily show in new york
20:09:56 <kmc> it's free to go
20:09:58 <Taneb> I think I prefer Chaser's War on Everything
20:10:01 <kmc> the studio is a lot smaller than i thought
20:10:14 <FireFly> Taneb: it's even more fun if you override the third- and fourth-level mappings with custom characters
20:10:17 <Taneb> As far as foreign political comedy goes
20:10:33 <FireFly> I have ∀ on altgr+shift+å for instance
20:10:49 <Taneb> I don't have a key
20:11:10 <FireFly> https://bitbucket.org/firefly/dotfiles/src/ed6758e4b8a0de448992b44ac5bc18705bb18469/xkb/firefly.symbols?at=default#cl-15
20:11:35 <Taneb> My alt-gr q has a spare @
20:11:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `='
20:11:53 <ion> taneb: I like both.
20:12:00 <Taneb> I think this is the Daily Show
20:12:12 <Taneb> The guy just got called some variant of John
20:12:17 <olsner> my q key displays a spare @ but makes a spare ä
20:12:23 <kmc> åbčdəffγhijĸlmn°pqrßtŭ∨w×y↯
20:12:38 <ion> áb©ðéfghíïœøµñóöäëßþú®åœüæ
20:12:54 <boily> 攢ðœŋħ→ijĸŀµʼnøþ¶ßŧ↓“łx←z
20:13:29 <Taneb> @łe¶ŧ←↓→øþæßðđŋħł«»¢“”nµ
20:14:04 <boily> ΩŁŒ®Ŧ¥↑ıØÞƧЪŊĦIJĿZX©‘’♪º
20:14:44 <Taneb> Okay, my dad picked up the remote and flicked.
20:14:49 <Taneb> I am no longer watching the Daily Show
20:15:03 <boily> I went full force with xmodmap a few weeks ago: http://pastebin.com/BJm2a9kG
20:15:10 <Fiora> I usually watch it online, it's easier that way
20:15:20 <Fiora> ... well and also I don't have cable, so
20:15:35 <Taneb> I think satellite's more common in the UK?
20:15:47 <Fiora> they have them all free on the official website, I think
20:16:09 <kmc> maybe only for US IP addresses
20:16:16 <kmc> they have them on Hulu which is definitely IP-restricted
20:16:16 <fizzie> You use zz for ↯ much?
20:16:57 <Fiora> oh geez, that's true... I'm not sure if comedy central does geoblocking
20:17:10 <kmc> Fiora: i forgot about it but I'll try to use it more now that I've remembered
20:18:06 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a uk website now but afaict it doesn't have `the goods' on it
20:18:35 <fizzie> əß©ð€fŋhıjĸlµño¶q®šþuvw×yž is what comes out of altgr-{a..z} here.
20:18:46 <Phantom_Hoover> (the daily show is shown daily on more 4 but i haven't watched it in years)
20:18:50 <kmc> er, that was meant to be fizzie:
20:20:03 <Taneb> In other news, I'm worried I'm trapped in a positive feedback loop that is driving my political compass increasingly south-west
20:20:07 <boily> I can't decide which one of fizzie or FireFly has the most esoteric available character (w/o using compose)
20:21:27 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, towards south cumbria, currently
20:21:46 <Taneb> Perhaps even as far south as Blackpool
20:22:35 <Taneb> (a sentence fragment ais523 never dreamed of hearing)
20:26:14 <Taneb> Windemere seems to be roughly south-west from here
20:26:58 <olsner> blackpool is indeed south of my whole country
20:27:00 <olsner> most likely south of alleged canada as well
20:27:18 <Taneb> I think it's north of, eg, Toronto
20:28:00 <olsner> toronto is a further 10 degrees south even
20:28:26 <boily> southern canada is strangely south. and manages to be friggin cold at the same time.
20:28:30 <Taneb> Pretty sure it's north of Calgary
20:29:01 <Taneb> boily, Lake Windermere
20:29:09 <boily> calgary is 51°, blackpool is 53.
20:29:48 <boily> Taneb: so you are east of hexham's middle, northeast from lake windermere.
20:30:29 <Taneb> boily, Windermere is pretty long
20:30:36 <Taneb> And I am in the east of Hexham
20:30:57 <coppro> canada is more than alleged!
20:30:59 <boily> yeah. the error margin is pretty large. meh :/
20:31:13 <coppro> olsner: I've been there
20:31:56 <boily> *cough* uhm... if I may say so, I *think* I am there, now. like, I'm pretty sure.
20:32:52 <coppro> I followed this map: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Canada-ItsUpThere.gif
20:33:21 <boily> there's a non-null chance of you falling into the Great Lakes, mind you.
20:33:38 <boily> have you had any drowning experiences or adventures in the past?
20:34:15 <Taneb> One of my friends drowned to death once
20:40:04 <Taneb> (actually true story)
20:41:36 <coppro> I mean, not the drowning to death part
20:50:52 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no heartbeat
20:51:00 <Phantom_Hoover> also: your (female, at least) friends seem to have terrible luck
20:51:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, most of my anecdotes are about one friend
20:51:24 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: It's not all that unconventional. See e.g. Christianity.
20:51:52 <Taneb> Then there was that other guy who got hit by a car and died and got better
20:52:11 <Taneb> Also, the head injury female friend is someone else completely
20:52:38 <Taneb> So, I have about three friends who have bad luck like that
20:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> in the grim darkness of the far north there is only bodily harm
20:53:01 <Taneb> Yesterday evening I bashed my knee and I think it's bruised
20:53:32 <olsner> did you kill it knee and it got better too?
20:53:49 <boily> I still have a nice scar on my knee, result of an accident involving a flowerbed and a car being washed.
20:54:07 <Taneb> I went to a children's playground
20:54:12 <Taneb> And there was a big climby thing
20:54:30 <Taneb> The youngest person there was 18, Phantom_Hoover.
20:54:39 <Taneb> I climbed the big climby thing
20:54:48 <Taneb> Then I climbed down the big climby thing
20:54:59 <Taneb> Then I tripped on the big climby thing and hit my knee
20:55:22 <coppro> Taneb: ok i don't want to be your friend anymore
20:55:37 <Phantom_Hoover> the youth of hexham struggle to find what joy they can
20:55:44 <coppro> it seems potentially fatal
20:55:56 <shachaf> Taneb is moving to California anyway. Isn't that right?
20:55:58 <Taneb> One of those deaths was before I knew them
20:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> attempting to regress to a more innocent time, Taneb only wounds himself further
20:56:06 <Taneb> shachaf, maybe, in about 6 years
20:56:27 <Taneb> I have a party to attend on Saturday in Hexham
20:56:31 <shachaf> Because it's the place to be?
20:56:37 <shachaf> There are parties in California, Taneb.
20:56:38 <olsner> Taneb: *before* you knew them? did you retroactively kill then unkill one of your friends?
20:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> party?? or a bunch of you standing around in a leaky shed
20:56:49 <Taneb> olsner, no, this was an accidental drowning
20:56:59 <boily> California is too hot, IMHO.
20:57:26 <Taneb> The part that's hotter than boily
20:57:31 <Taneb> Because boily sounds like boiling
20:57:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, do all the old people tell you how all hope died the day they close t' pit
20:57:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, nah, that mainly happens in the places where there was coal
20:58:02 <olsner> Taneb: in french it's probably pronounced something more like boahlee, and it can mean anything
20:58:09 <Taneb> We're on sandstone and sheep here
20:58:12 <shachaf> Over 100°? I don't think it gets that hot even in Death Valley.
20:58:26 <shachaf> It's named Death Valley after Taneb's friends.
20:58:51 <Taneb> Hey! No-one close to me has ever died while they were close to me!
20:59:17 <Taneb> That would explain a lot
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20:59:29 * Fiora makes a note to stay as far away from taneb as possible
20:59:44 <Taneb> Fiora, would you rather die and not come back?
20:59:53 <Fiora> I don't want to die :<
21:00:08 <Taneb> Do you sometimes wish you never were born at all?
21:00:37 <Fiora> u-um... maybe a few times but not often or something
21:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, look on the bright side, you weren't born in hexham
21:01:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, neither me nor elliott were actually born in Hexham
21:02:11 <shachaf> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Hexham%2C+Irvine%2C+Orange%2C+CA+92603
21:02:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I was born 23 miles away from Hexham
21:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> (have you ever worked out where elliott lives i refuse to believe nobody in hexham has heard of him)
21:03:01 <Taneb> (I found one person who used to know him)
21:03:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought that person knew a different elliott hird who also lived in hexham
21:03:34 <Taneb> No, that was someone else
21:03:44 <Taneb> ...the person who drowned, as it happens
21:04:18 <Taneb> The person whose face was kicked
21:04:18 <shachaf> Taneb: How come you and elliott haven't met?
21:04:37 <Taneb> shachaf, an endless stream of coincidences and also elliott never goes outside ever
21:05:26 <olsner> how small is hexham anyway?
21:05:35 <Taneb> olsner, just under 12000 people
21:05:50 <shachaf> ha the town i lived in was smaller
21:06:00 <Taneb> shachaf, did elliott live ther?
21:06:06 <Fiora> are we stalking elliott :<
21:06:12 <shachaf> no but a mathematician lived there
21:06:23 <Taneb> shachaf, was that mathematician you
21:06:28 <Taneb> Fiora, no, we're discussing the Hexham coincidence
21:06:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, i'm sorry do you even get how ridiculous this whole situation is
21:06:33 <shachaf> Do I look like a mathematician to you?
21:06:52 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off to bed now
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21:28:52 <fizzie> "The game is set in the fictitious, floating town of Hekseville --" is that also about Hexham? I'm sure that's about Hexham.
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22:22:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2013/04/18/west_texas_fertilizer_plant_blast_map.jpg ok wow i never realised quite how stupid that layout is
22:26:54 <Fiora> geez, someone needs to send that zoner to go play simcity, you don't put industrial zones next to residential zones!
22:27:29 <Phantom_Hoover> well, of late you don't put industrial zones anywhere *badum-tssh*
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22:38:44 <Sgeo> I don't know if what my boss said about common web security practice is true, but if it is, I hate everything
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22:39:26 <kmc> what did your boss say
22:39:42 <kmc> Fiora: zoning? in texas? :)
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22:40:31 <Sgeo> That beyond just sanitation when doing things like sending data in URLs, it's typical to validate at the controller to strip out special characters if they're known to not be present
22:41:30 <FreeFull> Valid data can always be corrupted or modified
22:41:50 <Sgeo> But special characters should be encoded, not rejected, imo
22:42:13 <Sgeo> Or processed by the service if the service needs to talk over the wire to something, etc.
22:43:31 <olsner> rejecting "weird" data can save you when the other 200 layers of your rube goldberg web service inevitably do everything wrong
22:43:52 <olsner> a shame for all the O'Somethings in the world though
22:44:08 -!- lambdabot has joined.
22:44:24 <Sgeo> Also, UriComponentsBuilder sucks
22:44:36 <FreeFull> With a proper type system you could enforce escaping
22:45:06 <Sgeo> AFK for a few hours; getting inducted into an honor society
22:45:10 <FreeFull> But if you've got a large piece of software in a language where everything string-like is a string
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22:46:51 <kmc> yep, Java sucks therefore static types suck
22:46:57 <kmc> MySQL sucks therefore relational databases suck
22:47:05 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:47:05 <kmc> Python threads suck therefore all threads suck
22:49:24 <kmc> but also the message right before mine where FreeFull mentioned types...
22:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> how are you getting an x's y sucks therefore all y sucks vibe from that
22:51:42 <kmc> i wasn't accusing FreeFull of having this attitude
22:52:02 <kmc> i would summarize FreeFull's claim as "languages with good types could solve this problem, but they aren't used in webdev"
22:52:33 <kmc> i was elaborating on why and tying it to other attitudes common in webdev communities
22:52:38 <kmc> that have a similar form of overgeneralization
22:53:24 <FreeFull> Haskell does get used in webdev but it's nowhere as mainstream as ruby
22:53:45 <kmc> most programmers think of types as like, int vs. double
22:53:58 <kmc> something annoying you have to write out yourself, which exists to help the machine a bit but doesn't help much in finding errors
22:54:13 <FreeFull> I guess you could enforce escaping using objects
22:54:37 <FreeFull> But the programmer needs to think to have a HTML object rather than just a string
22:55:15 <FreeFull> I think libraries and APIs might not be helping out
22:55:56 <kmc> if you have types richer than "string" then it is hard to get all the libraries on the same page about them
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22:56:01 <kmc> that's a big problem in the Haskell world as well
22:57:02 <kmc> where there are like six JSON libraries and six conduit/pipe libraries and etc.
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22:58:34 <kmc> even String vs [Word8] vs ByteString vs Text is still a big source of impedence mismatch
22:58:38 <FreeFull> The only problem with haskell is that the default records are an afterthought
22:59:16 <kmc> that is... not the only problem with Haskell
23:00:09 <FreeFull> [Word8] and ByteString seem to me like they'd be more for binary data than for text
23:00:33 <kmc> but people are perpetually confused about the difference between binary data and text
23:00:46 <kmc> also ByteString existed long before Text, aiui
23:00:59 -!- mnoqy has joined.
23:01:10 <kmc> so for a while if you wanted decent performance, you would use ByteString with UTF-8
23:01:25 -!- mnoqy has changed nick to monqy.
23:01:28 <kmc> or just assume that only Americans use your software
23:01:32 -!- monqy has changed nick to mnoqy.
23:02:21 <FreeFull> And that Americans never need anything more than ASCII
23:02:35 <kmc> yeah, that's not true either
23:03:03 -!- lambdabot has joined.
23:03:23 <FreeFull> I wonder if lambdabot is getting updates
23:03:51 <Fiora> kmc: I still love the idea of ada-like types, like where you can say the valid ranges of a type
23:04:35 <kmc> yeah, I wish Haskell had that
23:04:51 <Fiora> "type Integer_1 is range 1 .. 10;"
23:04:56 <kmc> dependently-typed languages generalize that, but maybe in a way that's not so nice to work with
23:05:38 <Fiora> ada does that thing where it kind of encourages you to write code that's very well specified through its types, I think
23:05:42 <Fiora> a bit like haskell but maybe moreso?
23:05:52 <Fiora> so that it can detect logic errors at compile time more easily, and runtime too I think?
23:06:02 <Fiora> type Short is range -128 .. +127;
23:06:03 <Fiora> type Byte is mod 256;
23:06:13 <Fiora> that makes... sense
23:06:33 <Fiora> type Color is (Red, Green, Blue); type Intensity is range 0 .. 255;
23:06:33 <Fiora> type Colored_Point is array (Color) of Intensity;
23:06:57 <FreeFull> That is really similar to Pascal
23:07:38 <FreeFull> I wonder if Pascal copied it from Ada or vice versa
23:08:25 <Fiora> wikipedia says Ada was developed ~1977-83, while Pascal was published in 1970?
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23:09:11 <FreeFull> Fiora: I don't know how much Pascal changed over time though
23:09:44 <Fiora> I really know almost nothing about either thoguh
23:09:55 <kmc> Ada was briefly the SgeoLang
23:10:28 <Fiora> Ada seems really interesting though
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23:13:18 <FreeFull> In Pascal, in a type section you could say something like Color = (Red, Green, Blue); Intensity = 0..255; ColoredPoint = array [Red..Blue] of Intensity
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23:50:57 <doesthiswork> I just had the best idea, markov chain replies to phishing scams
23:52:11 <doesthiswork> if the phishers have to figure out whether they are talking to a person or not, it makes their job more difficult
23:53:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i only remember shachaf incessantly telling Sgeo he should learn it
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00:05:39 <kmc> i did the AP CS course in C++
00:05:45 <kmc> which they only had for a few years, between Pascal and Java
00:06:53 <Fiora> geez, you're lucky. I took it in Java >_<
00:07:06 <Fiora> I still have faint memories (more like nightmares) of the marine biology simulation
00:07:35 <kmc> i think Java is a much better choice than C++ for that course
00:07:59 <Fiora> I guess maybe. I was just finding it hard to imagine it could get much worse <.<
00:08:14 <Fiora> I am really glad I was interested in programming before and had some experience
00:08:17 <Fiora> because like, if I hadn't
00:08:22 <Fiora> that course would have basically ensured I never did CS
00:08:54 <kmc> C++ is a terrible beginner language: no memory safety, manual resource management, tons of bizarre syntax, tons of conflicting advice on which part of the language to use
00:09:05 <Fiora> I guess so I'm still so bad at C++
00:09:08 <kmc> when I learned C++ they told us to use char* and arrays instead of STL for some reason
00:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> have i told you guys yet about my school's computing lessons
00:10:26 <pikhq_> C++ is a great esolang.
00:10:35 <Fiora> (actually I think it was like. the awfulness of high school CS made me want to go to college for physics because physics was cool and then I ended up going back to CS because I was horrible at physics)
00:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> long, long ago, i used ie5 for mac for my web browsing
00:12:38 <pikhq_> 5.0 for Mac is the version that added PNG support. :P
00:13:07 <pikhq_> And oddly enough, actually did it right.
00:21:48 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: did I tell you about Macintosh russian roulette
00:22:22 <kmc> we did AP CS in C++ on Macs running OS 9 which has no memory protection
00:22:39 <kmc> so I came up with this program which, every time you hit Enter, pokes a random value to a random location in memory
00:22:44 <kmc> and we would take turns hitting Enter
00:22:50 <kmc> whoever makes the program crash loses
00:22:58 <kmc> or usually, the whole computer
00:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> please tell me someone worked out a way to win by gaming the rng
00:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> did anything crazy happen or did the computer just die
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00:24:43 <kmc> nothing particularly crazy, usually it would just freeze up
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00:25:01 <kmc> in the Java VM breakout "pointing a heatlamp at the RAM sticks" paper, they reported permafucking the OS a significant number of times
00:25:03 <kmc> which I find surprising
00:25:10 <kmc> like, requiring a reinstall
00:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> what does grilled ram have to do with java vm breakouts
00:25:52 <kmc> it was about exploiting random bit flips to escape the sandbox
00:26:03 <Fiora> that was an amazing paper
00:26:15 <Fiora> did you read about how the gameboy color (I think?) ROM was eventually dumped?
00:26:17 <kmc> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/memerr.pdf
00:26:40 <kmc> also not to be missed: 'bitsquatting', where you register DNS names one bit off from popular websites, and harvest people's cookies
00:26:49 <kmc> Fiora: no, what did they do?
00:26:50 <Fiora> it was done with this insane hack where the guy basically did the same kind of "bash at the hardware externally" trick to get it to do something
00:27:13 <Fiora> http://www.fpgb.org/?page_id=17
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00:28:07 <Fiora> it's a really cool article, but the meat of it is basically setting up a gigantic nop sled in external memory, then glitching the clock and voltage to try to get the instruction pointer to end up in external memory when it isn't supposed to be
00:28:46 <mnoqy> oh so that's why i didn't get those lambdabot messages. i changed my name too fast and lambdabot sent them off to the wrong nick
00:28:50 <Fiora> combined with a ton of crazy reverse engineering and thousands of wires soldered to the board XD
00:28:51 <kmc> i'll have to read this
00:28:53 <mnoqy> dear elliott: stop fucking sending messages to monqy
00:29:07 <kmc> so the issue here is that the boot ROM is part of the CPU itself and can't easily be interrogated from the outside?
00:29:38 <Fiora> Yeah -- for the original gameboy the ROM didn't get dumped until someone literally took an electron microscope to it
00:29:43 <kmc> (got to go semi-afk but will definitely read this later)
00:29:44 <Fiora> and read off the bits one by on
00:30:10 <Fiora> so this was like. -easier-
00:32:05 <mnoqy> emphasis? emotion?
00:33:00 <Fiora> kmc: a similar cool thing I remember reading about was the project to reverse engineer all the coprocessor chips on SNES cartridges
00:33:25 <Fiora> http://byuu.org/articles/emulation/snes-coprocessors oh, here's that!
00:33:53 <Fiora> the people involved in this stuff are just. superhuman though
00:33:55 <Fiora> "segher got involved and reconstructed the entire instruction set just from looking at the binary data and HLE code"
00:34:20 <Fiora> "Cydrak recognized the ISA just from looking at the binary"
00:34:53 <Fiora> "[these] are heavily protected against having their program ROMs read out. For these, Dr. Decapitator had to decap the chips, and read the ROM data directly off of the chips internally"
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01:55:00 <kmc> shachaf: hi there in ##crypto
01:55:30 <shachaf> I used to be there but it was mostly not very good as I remember, but maybe it's good now.
02:01:02 <shachaf> mind if i call you.................... yqnom
02:01:09 <mnoqy> i dont have that on hilite
02:01:09 <shachaf> what's this "hey" business about
02:01:18 <mnoqy> it's a greeting in usa
02:01:33 <shachaf> that's where you are right
02:01:57 <kmc> the west is the best
02:02:08 <shachaf> how coastal are we talkin'
02:02:31 <mnoqy> hey are you trying to stalk me again!!
02:03:02 <mnoqy> coastal as in "california is up against the ocean not some of that 'midwest' nonsense"
02:03:03 <shachaf> no not really should i???????
02:06:02 <shachaf> mnoqy: so how is mac lane doing
02:07:28 <mnoqy> i'm still neckdeep in monoids
02:08:00 <mnoqy> i think today i read about constructing free monoids? or was that yesterday
02:09:32 <mnoqy> so far theres only been brief mention about monads on a cat. C being monoids in C^C or w/e it is
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02:28:14 <kmc> http://montereybayaquarium.tumblr.com/image/47866677088 awwwwwww
02:33:48 <kmc> what, fuck you
02:33:53 <kmc> cuttlefish are awesome
02:34:22 <kmc> you and your mammal-centric worldview
02:34:30 <kmc> it cannot be denied
02:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc do you not remember i was the one saying we should uplift cuttlefish
02:35:02 <kmc> also dolphins never have to write Berkeley Sockets code which is another advantage they have over humans
02:36:40 <coppro> yes but ive never stood on a cuttlefish
02:39:58 <Sgeo> Well, Java has URI and URL types
02:40:12 <Sgeo> But I don't know how good they are at enforcing the proper type of thinking
02:40:27 <Sgeo> If "the" way to create a URI involves escaping query parameters
02:50:51 <zzo38> Is something wrong with Linode?
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02:54:39 <kmc> they got haxed
02:56:14 <shachaf> should i switch from linode to somethingelse
02:56:14 <zzo38> ifMUD is hosted in Linode, and sometimes I can connect to it from some computers but not from other computers, and on some computers it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't works, even though other people say then can connect fine from their side.
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03:13:59 <kmc> shit is getting real
03:14:03 <kmc> cop shot at MIT, a couple blocks from my house
03:14:07 <kmc> suspect at large
03:15:16 <kmc> helicopters everywhere
03:15:43 <mnoqy> im glad my life isnt this real idk how id handle it
03:17:19 <copumpkin> kmc: you need to pull out your RPG and jump into the melee
03:17:32 <kmc> if only I had an RPG
03:17:40 <copumpkin> isn't the key to stopping violence to arm more people?
03:17:48 <kmc> sometimes I'm like "Fuck, America is full of crazy people with guns, I should get some guns myself"
03:17:53 <kmc> stupid prisoner's dilemma
03:17:55 <copumpkin> that guy would've thought twice had he known kmc was sitting around with an RPG
03:21:43 <shachaf> kmc: have you considered moving to epa
03:22:01 <kmc> i mean yes
03:23:04 <shachaf> mnoqy: how real is y our life
03:23:11 <mnoqy> not very real at all, really
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03:24:20 <shachaf> i vote that mnoqy is a bot
03:38:26 <doesthiswork> if you put your fingers in front of your mouth like you're making a zoidberg face, cuttlefish will recognize it when you mimic their movements, your eight fingers are just like their eight arms
03:53:10 <hagb4rd> hm.. pathethos (παθητός): “one who has suffered"
03:55:41 <Bike> wait, a cop got shot? i knew there was a shooting but
03:56:31 <hagb4rd> wait was that part of the void kampf test?
03:56:52 <Bike> and it's voight
03:57:02 <kmc> yeah, cop shot at MIT
03:57:10 <kmc> in front of the Stata Center
03:57:57 <kmc> gotta stay inside and drink additional beers
03:58:46 <Bike> is it true that noam chomsky is the shooter
04:00:16 <kmc> Bike: i heard that on reddit
04:00:35 <kmc> so it's probably true
04:00:50 <mnoqy> is that a real theory
04:01:49 <Bike> relatedly i was listening to talk radio a while ago. this was a bad idea
04:02:01 <kmc> radio head
04:02:14 <Bike> you know how the FBI released photos of suspects for Boston? some guy was on talking about how they were "chalky" illegals
04:02:53 <Bike> i dunno he was really pissed that they were white
04:03:03 <Bike> so he uh, said they were some other kind of white? i dunno it's hard to pay attention to that shit
04:03:12 <mnoqy> would he rather they be....not white?
04:03:25 <mnoqy> i dont understand life
04:03:39 <kmc> the cop died :(
04:04:37 <Bike> http://emergency.mit.net/emergency/ well i'm glad they're giving updates
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04:51:30 <copumpkin> kmc: sounds like crazy shit going on there
04:51:44 <kmc> MIT perps have made it to Watertown and are engaged in a shootout with the police
04:52:11 <kmc> they may or may not have grenades o_O
04:52:25 <Fiora> oh kmc did you see the SNES thing
04:53:04 <Bike> from sigbovik?
04:53:11 <Bike> imo read sigbovik (i still haven't)
04:53:38 <Fiora> oh sorry, I posted about it above but I guess you were away, right
04:53:57 <Fiora> it was reverse engineering SNES game coprocessors
04:54:53 <copumpkin> confirmed explosives now, apparently
04:54:57 <copumpkin> http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/6254/web
04:56:10 <kmc> "RT @universalhub Police proceding as if Watertown suspects are Marathon suspects"
04:56:54 <Bike> so... what does that mean for what they're actually doing
04:57:25 <Bike> wouldn't that fuck up the investigation
04:59:40 <copumpkin> chances are they're not gonna get caught
05:00:36 -!- kmc has set topic: Hello, good evening, and REMAIN INDOORS! | I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE SQUARES | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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05:09:53 <kmc> shit is crazy
05:10:11 <Bike> "boston has seceded"
05:11:14 <kmc> as best as I can piece together: They shot a cop at MIT, carjacked a car to get away, got some miles west, then started throwing explosives at cops
05:13:10 <kmc> listening to police scanner is probably a bad idea
05:13:21 <kmc> i should just go to sleep, hopefully not get blown up
05:13:29 <Fiora> >_< are you close by?
05:13:35 <kmc> not really
05:13:36 <mnoqy> police scanner sounds cool
05:13:52 <kmc> i'm close to where the cop got shot but further from the current scene of the action
05:14:20 <copumpkin> kmc: I've seen people saying that the original shooter is not one of the carjackers and is still unaccounted for, so don't go outside still
05:16:05 <kmc> yes i will stay inside until I run out of beer and food
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05:16:29 <kmc> it's times like these that I think I should get some guns to counteract all the crazy people with guns
05:16:32 <kmc> stupid prisoner's dilemmas
05:18:11 <Bike> probably wouldn't help
05:19:05 <mnoqy> im glad i dont have a gun i dont think id be able to handle it
05:19:44 <mnoqy> not that id go on a shooting or anything.....just having a gun would be stressful or
05:20:22 <shachaf> having a gun makes you crazy not the other way around
05:30:00 <fizzie> Guns don't kill jobs, robots who shoot guns kill jobs.
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08:05:13 <shachaf> http://adit.io/posts/2013-04-17-functors,_applicatives,_and_monads_in_pictures.html :-(
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08:25:52 <fizzie> It says that in several places.
08:26:08 <fizzie> (I only looked at the pictures.)
08:26:17 <fizzie> ("I read it for the articles.")
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09:12:44 <mroman_> @ask AnotherTest Did you have use for noe?
09:13:05 <shachaf> today i ate odd japanese candy
09:13:12 <fizzie> Was it called a fizzie?
09:13:29 <shachaf> I don't know what it was called because I'm not good at reading Japanese.
09:13:41 <shachaf> But it seemed a bit fizzy, maybe.
09:14:09 <fizzie> I think I am a candy too.
09:14:45 <shachaf> Is there good Finnish candy? I don't know anything about Finnish candy. :-(
09:15:04 <fizzie> http://lgcdn.candyfavorites.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/b/rbeer.jpg <- that's me.
09:15:32 <shachaf> Note: "salmiakki" does not count as "good".
09:16:06 <fizzie> I was just about to say we just eat ammonium chloride as candy.
09:16:55 <fizzie> I suppose there's Finnish variants of regular things too, but I don't think those are anything to write home about.
09:17:13 <fizzie> Quite a lot of products containing xylitol.
09:17:30 <shachaf> Is everything made of corn?
09:17:33 <fizzie> "[Xylitol's] dental significance was researched in Finland in the early 1970s, when scientists at Turku University showed it had significant dental benefits.[6] Those became known as the "Turku sugar studies"."
09:17:34 <shachaf> That's how it is in America.
09:18:25 <fizzie> There's an oklopol in Turku, I think that's its greatest attraction.
09:19:01 <fizzie> Also a podunk "castle".
09:23:54 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of less salty liquorice around. I don't know what anything is made of. It comes in a bag.
09:24:22 <shachaf> Is there an oklopole in Poland?
09:24:59 <fizzie> They spell it with an ł, but I think so.
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09:26:59 <fizzie> That's presumably the Norwegian brand.
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12:39:32 <Taneb> Did we find a cause for the Hexham Coincidence last night?
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12:46:25 <Taneb> I have raffle tickets 476 through 485 for a raffle tomorrow night
12:48:25 <Taneb> This presents me a significant chance of winning
12:48:46 <Taneb> elliott_: Hexham Golf Club, tomorrow, 7:30 pm, bring money
12:49:52 <Taneb> Money, alcohol, a holiday for dogs!
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12:51:40 <Taneb> If I win top prize, I've made a £43 profit
12:51:53 <Taneb> I could buy 20% of a bitcoin
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12:54:11 <boily> <olsner> Taneb: in french it's probably pronounced something more like boahlee, and it can mean anything <- more like /bwa.li/, but boahlee's close enough.
12:54:38 <boily> otherwise, hi all! today is orangeshirtday!
12:55:37 <Taneb> Then I think next weekend me and some friends are gonna have a superhero movie night before we see Iron Man 3
12:56:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: there's an article in the times
13:00:14 <boily> another unknown metar tokens:
13:00:18 <metasepia> CYUL 191200Z 15014KT 15SM FEW050 SCT080 BKN180 OVC240 14/10 A2969 RMK SC1AC3AC2CI2 SLP054 DENSITY ALT 200FT
13:00:29 <boily> what is density alt?
13:00:44 <fizzie> I was looking at how BiTCoiN was.
13:00:50 <metasepia> EGNT 191250Z 07007KT 050V170 9999 SCT042 09/02 Q1027
13:01:05 <Taneb> I think I've learnt my nearest airport's metar address
13:01:12 <boily> new checklist item: add a ~bitcoin command.
13:01:19 <metasepia> EFHK 191250Z 23013KT 9999 BKN022 07/02 Q1005 NOSIG
13:01:36 <fizzie> That like the "No signal" that I get on my monitor?
13:02:07 <boily> NO SIGnificative observations. all is fine, keep calm, something something carry on and all that sort of things.
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13:05:55 <boily> wiki has an article on desity altitude, but I can't parse the first paragraph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_altitude
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13:07:22 <Taneb> I'd like to see an IATA/ICAO converter
13:07:36 <Taneb> Also, what language is metasepia written in?
13:07:57 <boily> the mapping isn't bijective between IATA and ICAO, but I could go with the most common cases.
13:08:01 <boily> it's written in haskell.
13:08:25 <Taneb> Is it online anywhere?
13:09:11 <boily> no, not yet. I could upload a sdist somewhere, if you're interested.
13:09:44 <Taneb> If there's a git repo I could give you a hand
13:10:31 <boily> I created a repo for the rewrite, but haven't put anything yet because I really lack time to.
13:11:10 <boily> the problem with metasepia's current incarnation is that it relies on old libraries that won't compile with the new error API. besides, simpleirc does not support SSL.
13:14:04 <Taneb> What does fastirc look like?
13:14:08 <boily> https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qrt68vaxo3by7p/cuttlefish-0.1.0.0.tar.gz
13:14:19 <boily> don't know about it. I'll check... ♪
13:14:45 <boily> («Veuillez demeurer en ligne tandis que nous acheminons votre appel...»)
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13:14:55 <atriq> @tell Taneb https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qrt68vaxo3by7p/cuttlefish-0.1.0.0.tar.gz
13:15:07 <atriq> (I wont be home for a couple of hours)
13:15:29 <boily> fastirc received no updates since 2010. doesn't bode well.
13:16:28 <atriq> It may be a case of "write your own"
13:16:37 <atriq> OTOH, the IRC protocol hasn't changed much, ever
13:17:34 <boily> that's the conclusion I came to too. I think I was tryin to inhale the RFC some weeks ago.
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13:21:49 <atriq> I think I've broken webchat
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13:23:09 <atriq> It hadn't opened a new window for #esoteric
13:23:26 <oklofok> is there an underhanded haskell contest
13:23:49 <atriq> That would sound fun
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13:27:20 <Jafet> oklofok: it's redundant
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13:34:15 <Jafet> Yeah. Just don't write any haddocks
13:36:07 <atriq> That's obfuscated, not underhanded
13:37:59 <boily> I'm sure you can squeeze categories to extract their evil essence.
13:38:10 <boily> we should call the result “lemma juice”.
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13:48:39 <atriq> A thing being a category is pretty useless if that's all you know about it
13:50:36 <atriq> You could probably abuse the hell out of Cokleisli arrows, though
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15:00:47 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:00:56 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:00:59 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
15:01:08 <metasepia> Your divination: "Great Possessing" to "Polarising"
15:02:32 <metasepia> "When you wake up in the morning, Pooh," said Piglet at last,
15:02:32 <metasepia> "what's the first thing you say to yourself?"
15:02:32 <metasepia> "What's for breakfast?" said Pooh. "What do you say, Piglet?"
15:02:32 <metasepia> "I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?" said Piglet.
15:02:32 <metasepia> Pooh nodded thoughtfully. "It's the same thing," he said.
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15:19:56 <boily> ~duck enlightenment
15:19:57 <metasepia> enlightenment definition: the act or means of enlightening.
15:20:36 * boily flagellates duck duck go with a one day old toast that has dampened a bit and lost most of its crispiness
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15:22:56 <boily> ah, the cotaneb is back.
15:23:29 <Taneb> It has learnt well
15:23:29 <Benat> llew tnrael sah tI
15:23:51 <boily> can it mirror a ／?
15:25:45 <Jafet> `run quote Taneb | tac
15:25:50 <HackEgo> 1020) <Taneb> I've also pretended to be Queen Elizabeth the first, but that was a desperate plea for attention \ 960) <ais523> did you know that likes follow you around the internet and steal your browser? <Taneb> I thought that was Phantom_Hoover \ 959) <Taneb> I'm a story about the prohibition of chocolate \ 935) <elliott> well what is time <el
15:26:02 <Jafet> `run quote Taneb | rev
15:26:04 <HackEgo> tnemetats nruter eht teg t'ndid tsuj eh ,noisrucer tog eh tuo denruT >benaT< )593 \ 01' yraubeF ,yawynA >benaT< liomrut ni yxalag A >benaT< deralced erew raW >benaT< yraurbeF ot tuC >benaT< )104 \ retnirp resal a ton ,dlihcdnarg A >benaT< !esoht fo eno droffa t'nac I >benaT< )204 \ .rucco ot ylekil s'ti nehw neve ,stluser tnereffid tcepxe ot en
15:26:20 <Taneb> `pastequotes Taneb
15:26:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25395
15:27:47 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: When did you pretend to be Queen Elizabeth II, and why?
15:27:58 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, wrong Elizabeht
15:28:27 <Taneb> I was hungry even though I'd been eating a lot
15:28:34 <Taneb> And one of my friends asked me how I could be
15:28:54 <Taneb> I replied "While I may have the week and feeble body of a woman, I have the heart and stomach of a king"
15:29:02 <Taneb> And rolled with it
15:29:08 -!- Benat has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:29:19 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> coleridge and
15:30:26 <Taneb> (that came from when I was messing with a crop text-to-speech thing, and it kept getting it horribly wrong)
15:30:35 <HackEgo> 738) <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
15:30:41 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. (see also: d-modules)
15:30:49 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules and automatic squirrel feeders
15:31:59 <HackEgo> 847) <Taneb> Gordon Moore's expected lifespan doubles every 18 months
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15:34:59 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: wait is this your website: http://www.gardengrapevine.com/SquirrelFeeder.html
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15:35:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: jrypbzr: not found
15:35:15 <HackEgo> Gnaro: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:35:30 <Taneb> is that... rot13 of me?
15:35:30 <Gnaro> vf gung... ebg13 bs zr?
15:36:44 <boily> worse than kickbanning: being plagued by mysterious bots.
15:38:13 <Taneb> fwhfuiwehfguiwehgieurh
15:38:14 <Gnaro> sjushvjrusthvjrutvrheu
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15:40:05 <Taneb> Have I defeated this one?
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15:43:16 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:44:13 <AnotherTest> mroman_: not yet, I'll tell you when I use it though. It's interesting anyway
15:44:56 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott.
15:45:15 <elliott> Taneb: were you stalking me.........
15:45:31 <Taneb> elliott, I was mildly curious whether you existed or not
15:46:01 <Taneb> I've had friends turn out to be entirely made up by Canadians in the past, who says it can't happen again
15:46:55 <Taneb> Said Canadian has now disappeared completely
15:48:04 * boily pokes himself in the ribs. “ow”
15:48:16 <boily> I haven't disappeared yet, so all is good :D
15:51:40 <AnotherTest> maybe Taneb himself doesn't exist and he's try to deceive us all?
15:51:53 <Taneb> AnotherTest, there are secondary sources stating I do indeed exist
15:52:33 <Taneb> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/news/2.2978/students-pass-classic-test-1.288062?referrerPath=home/2.3307
15:52:53 <Taneb> Newspaper article which mentions me entering a latin recitation competition
15:53:49 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, do you accept the law of the excluded middle?
15:54:40 <Taneb> So therefore I must either exist or not exist
15:54:53 <Taneb> If I did not exist, I would not be able to explain this proof to you
15:55:02 <Taneb> I am explaining this proof to you
15:55:02 <AnotherTest> also, taneb, which one of those kids is supposed to be you?
15:55:10 <Taneb> AnotherTest, Nathan van Doorn
15:55:29 <Taneb> eliott doesn't exist
15:55:49 <ThatOtherPerson> <Taneb> If I did not exist, I would not be able to explain this proof to you <-- why not? Maybe you could.
15:55:52 <Taneb> However, if that were true, I'd suck less
15:56:19 <Taneb> Well, I'd be better at Haskell and worse at socializing
15:56:37 <AnotherTest> Anymay, you might as well be ThatOtherPerson
15:56:58 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson is some other person
15:57:21 <AnotherTest> Can you proof that your are not just that other person?
15:57:21 <Taneb> Not that other person
15:57:48 <Taneb> (also, isn't this philosophically impossible?)
15:57:49 <AnotherTest> "I am me" is still true if you are that other person
15:58:04 <AnotherTest> because that other person is that other person
15:58:30 <AnotherTest> but he's most likely just that other person, not just another person
15:58:33 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson is an American living in Saudi Arabia. I am a Brit/Aussie living in Hexham
15:58:53 <Taneb> As Hexham is not in Saudi Arabia, I am not ThatOtherPerson
15:59:16 <ThatOtherPerson> "American" is such a generic term; it could refer to someone from two entire continents
15:59:27 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, I am from neither
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15:59:59 <Fiora> taneb, at least I think you exist
16:00:10 <AnotherTest> maybe Taneb is actually a bot created by Fiora!
16:00:32 <Taneb> That doesn't make sense!
16:00:39 <Taneb> Fiora is my sock puppet account!
16:00:40 <boily> scratch AI, and I'll agree :p
16:01:04 <boily> (I mean, Taneb looks pretty natural to me. maybe he's a plant.)
16:01:16 <AnotherTest> so he must be a bot created by another person
16:02:04 <AnotherTest> He said he is himself, not that other person
16:02:19 <AnotherTest> He might be another person though, that's not excluded
16:07:00 <Taneb> elliott, I think the conclusion is that none of us exist
16:08:05 <FireFly> Hexham is probably located at (54.971i°N, 2.101i°W)
16:08:21 <AnotherTest> I probably exist (cogito ergo sum) but you're all illusions
16:09:32 <AnotherTest> I suspect ThatOtherPerson was replaced by a markov chain...
16:11:09 <FireFly> ThatOtherPerson: are you ELIZA?
16:11:56 <FireFly> fungot: meet ThatOtherPerson
16:11:56 <fungot> FireFly: we weren't doing it that way...
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16:12:50 <AnotherTest> I think fungot and that other person have an agreement...
16:12:51 <fungot> AnotherTest: what else operates on s-expressions besides lisp? how come you can't use the same format; i seem to recall the guy saying that he did not
16:13:21 <fungot> AnotherTest: 1) all procedures can be invoked as a procedure has to have gc protections all over the fnord
16:13:41 <FireFly> fungot: *all* over the fnord?!
16:13:41 <fungot> FireFly: i'd have to write ( let ( ( test ( lambda ( cont) ( call/ cc
16:13:57 <FireFly> I think fungot's stuck in a dialect of lisp
16:13:57 <fungot> FireFly: sxml is okmij.org/ ftp/ perl/ fnord/ net/ org, but still
16:14:37 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: yes but there will always be basilosaurus. and it's not hard work. the hard problems are fun, the first return value is not " always available", that's pretty old...
16:14:58 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: and they're venturing through cannibal territory. just something to do
16:15:18 <fungot> AnotherTest: on even the most trivial of one-liners.
16:15:19 <ThatOtherPerson> "venturing through cannibal territory" is "just something to do"
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16:15:58 <AnotherTest> fungot: indeed fungot, you're confused on even the most trivial of one-liners
16:15:58 <fungot> AnotherTest: phew! it was a bad sentence? a paragraph? these are strings.
16:16:02 <FireFly> fungot: what else do you do for fun?
16:16:02 <fungot> FireFly: but that's just because i've seen people making parodies of dc which resemble that
16:16:20 <fungot> AnotherTest: was that nm output from dissector.so?" inspired me to read the implementation code to find that mit students have a rather clean backend/ frontend interfaces. however, when case-folding you don't need
16:16:22 <HackEgo> 1021) <ThatOtherPerson> Do you have a girlfriend, fungot? <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: there's two.
16:16:59 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: undefined variable ' annoy'. you can't infer a static semantic for the language
16:17:51 <HackEgo> 57) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 855) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
16:17:59 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: undefined variable ' annoy'. you can't infer a static semantic for the language
16:18:00 <fungot> elliott: fnord)) fnord io system became quite inefficient because of its very own esolang. don't want them on you. perhaps you're feeling your age :) dybvig's name is kent not ken......
16:18:03 <HackEgo> 1036) <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: undefined variable ' annoy'. you can't infer a static semantic for the language
16:18:30 <AnotherTest> elliott: "perhaps you're feeling your age"?
16:18:57 <FireFly> Reminds me of http://xkcd.com/447/
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16:36:26 <fizzie> fungot: Who are venturing through cannibal territory?
16:36:26 <fungot> fizzie: soegaard pasted " from the dark languages over?... so what
16:38:17 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:38:43 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:39:01 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
16:39:12 <fizzie> fungot: Teach me play NetHack.
16:39:13 <fungot> fizzie: lycanthrope, were*, *were: in after days, when the syrian heat is worst, let him drink, and that was an oval plate, the big black cobra, and ran toward the moon is not the only way it can grow up to the _dark_ heavens. he sprang forward and backward, to defend the realm of the camp of the sea. they hated it and let the lord rose and went forth halting; but there moved swiftly to support their lord handmaidens wrought of
16:39:19 <fungot> :ThatOtherPerson: the magic memory vault!' wailed legolas. ' ai, ai!' he said under his father, as they rushed towards him.
16:39:28 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think that will help me much.
16:39:28 <fungot> fizzie: acid blobs should be strong. apes should make the earth. ( the tough guide to fantasyland, by christopher marlowe), and flames began to change.
16:39:40 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
16:39:52 <fizzie> fungot: AnMaster no not markov?
16:39:53 <fungot> fizzie: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going fast and such an apparently non-standard format is being dimensioned by assigning dimensions to them; and sets. maybe thats what them meant by experimental selected so it fnord be useful information regarding the report, mr. owen, i am satisfied, with much ado. your sister is the better part made mercie, i should think at least, th
16:40:04 <fizzie> Ha, I confused it enough.
16:40:36 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
16:41:29 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have any new styles you'd want in you?
16:41:30 <fungot> fizzie: but a vague, it's like trying to get it, but alright later
16:41:31 <fungot> AnotherTest: examine the wall behind his own back. it keeps happening. you seem to have a knack for always guessing right on the first try!
16:42:43 <fizzie> fungot: It certainly does.
16:42:43 <fungot> fizzie: so, you give up, jade is my slime tube and this is a new game. there is a heavy amount of time i will say you are only here to deliver a message and then i'll put a mean game of blackjack.
16:43:53 <elliott> fizzie: how about a style with... uhh
16:44:21 <fizzie> The problem with styles is, they require a tiny modicum of effort from me.
16:44:27 <elliott> right but you just volunteered
16:45:15 <elliott> fizzie: do you have any corpi of speech that has been speech-recognitiated
16:45:47 <ThatOtherPerson> fizzie: how does fungot's input affect the markov chain it produces?
16:45:48 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: you have a great appreciation for the fine arts. you use the hammer and nails. they will come a day
16:46:47 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: It does not.
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16:47:28 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: In fact, the Befunge code doesn't even have any functionality of getting from text to the list of tokens the babble-generation uses.
16:47:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: Hello, good evening, and REMAIN INDOORS! | I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE TIME CUBES | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:47:52 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I've done character-grams with the Perl prototype, but the Befunge code forces spaces between every token (except punctuation).
16:48:17 <fizzie> `run words 20 # it generally doesn't look all that different from this
16:48:22 <HackEgo> arbie vygamoscr tcr thiiten dica dascopa fonixo ood unt aquisan unhood pugna phallano profed schen carrin mating prec voring pturea
16:48:33 <fizzie> Well, maybe there's a bit more across-word context.
16:48:50 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: he is so silly! john!! :d
16:49:00 <HackEgo> quoyard rekte schmay zeanid osama
16:49:11 <HackEgo> kanansa saansimmällä vaikkisimma kyttäviltansa suosimpinesti kauttavistolaisemme vallongelleen jumpaamikseen sisäkämme maksulatiinsa
16:49:13 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: but in a more platonic sense, and with a more specific social purpose. it no matter what the dice. you just don't have a very exciting 24 hours or so.
16:49:23 <fizzie> (`words is not my thing.)
16:49:32 <HackEgo> effi metrin seedizungen sozialemaution darbeikante worens zehnappaet vers kotycholtmeis ausgen
16:50:28 <HackEgo> damoverv servei pruiflft kpé aprofilo kônicrois geron jasion ant phab
16:50:40 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
16:50:44 <fizzie> That's what it knows about.
16:51:09 <HackEgo> shoop grass rpos .ger clc-inter topline bloopuf reversion 1l brainlolcode
16:51:49 <HackEgo> 960) <boily> oerjan: on those days, I'm sure this channel becomes some kind of SCP.
16:52:06 <HackEgo> 959) <ais523> did you know that likes follow you around the internet and steal your browser? <Taneb> I thought that was Phantom_Hoover
16:54:02 <elliott> that's gotta be a quality language
16:54:12 <fizzie> "bloopuf" sounds nice.
16:58:01 <HackEgo> gol bitz linter opting pleaseporth dobelatlis smill orthagonal gemo recurscrambda pax objectpar var 01_ arro hang better tame tript mouse
16:58:35 <HackEgo> konfiden avhjälvs rande avpapplikhet hyranda överräd vinpigolo blyerna syftninga etensierna
16:59:14 <olsner> those words do look very swedish
16:59:43 <FireFly> I wonder what "avpapplikhet" would mean
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17:00:55 <olsner> hyranda translates as "renting spirit" (not an actual thing but could very well be)
17:01:10 <olsner> and överräd would be something like an "over-raid"
17:02:51 <olsner> that'd be "similarity to avpapp", but avpapp doesn't mean anything unfortunately
17:03:36 <olsner> av papp is "(made) of cardboard", but only as two words
17:04:18 <HackEgo> wymi niematyczytona karnych zaognijektyzując nieporalowanie dręta niepooszczo rożnawoźniach upłciliłaś pogacyjne
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17:04:49 <fizzie> `words --eng-fiction 10
17:04:53 <HackEgo> trelic kapa cougt hood reich nuchid repairb vira cala ausweep
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17:06:15 <FireFly> `words --canadian-english-insane 10
17:06:19 <HackEgo> talized phobiac off kohalimacupilful daptione sphacheated uplian unequelchygrei wallotched unperflowly
17:06:46 <fizzie> kohalimacupilful, unequelchygrei.
17:06:47 <FireFly> Such an unperflowly day today
17:06:56 <fizzie> Is that how Canadians speak?
17:08:08 <FreeFull> reich isn't really an English word
17:08:26 <HackEgo> Unknown option: british-english
17:08:28 <Jafet> An okay day today, eh
17:08:40 <HackEgo> con bil geabt gropy undelia dawa tia guaniation don jigger
17:09:00 <fizzie> `run words --eng-us 10 # for comparison
17:09:03 <HackEgo> lobo nigh pal fcentnou lavethneveaa njh eichon tacho balflein lie
17:09:18 <fizzie> Americans lie, while Britons con people.
17:09:55 <kmc> shit is extremely real in boston
17:09:58 <FireFly> 'njh' seems hard to pronounciate
17:10:01 <kmc> everything is shut down except dunkin donuts
17:10:15 <elliott> can't shut down dunkin donuts
17:10:22 <kmc> seriously, the authorities requested that dunkin donuts stay open to supply the cops
17:10:42 <Bike> tbf dunkin donuts is pretty great
17:10:58 <Bike> cop jokes or not
17:11:13 <elliott> i've never had dunkin donuts, the poverty of britain
17:11:34 <kmc> http://www.businessinsider.com/boston-dunkin-donuts-stays-open-2013-4
17:11:42 <FreeFull> elliott: You can buy a freshly fried sugary doughnut at the beach. Isn't that good enough?
17:12:00 <fizzie> "There was an automated message going around telling businesses to close, but because we're Dunkin' Donuts, we called the police department and they said we didn't have to."
17:12:17 <olsner> why should businesses close at all?
17:12:37 <kmc> one of the marathon bombing suspects is at large
17:12:38 <fizzie> "We're Dunkin' f'ing Donats, we don't close."
17:12:47 <fizzie> I haven't had a dunked do-not either; the poverty of Finland.
17:12:48 <elliott> i can't tell if fizzie's quotes are real or not
17:13:01 <olsner> and closing everything down helps what how?
17:13:03 <fizzie> elliott: The first one was from the article kmc linked. The second one I made up.
17:13:15 <kmc> last night they robbed a 7-Eleven, shot and killed a cop at MIT, carjacked a SUV and drove it to Watertown where they started throwing bombs at police
17:13:20 <kmc> this is some grand theft auto shit
17:13:31 <kmc> there are helicopters everywhere, they have 5 stars by now for sure
17:13:54 <fizzie> olsner: I suppose it helps because people who stay indoors don't get shot?
17:14:06 <kmc> olsner: keeps innocent people out of harm's way, and keeps them from getting in the way of the cops etc.
17:14:07 <Bike> i went and googled news from when i was asleep and the names of the shooters are totaly different now?
17:14:15 <Bike> they've morphed from indian to chechen
17:14:21 <Gregor> I'm trying to understand why a pair who planted bombs at the Boston Marathon would make their next action robbing a 7-Eleven.
17:14:32 <kmc> Gregor: yeah, everyone seems to be confused about that
17:14:37 <FireFly> It doesn't exactly seem to be the next logical step
17:14:38 <kmc> given that they'd been successfully hiding out for days
17:14:43 <fizzie> Gregor: "Maybe they were thirsty?"
17:14:55 <kmc> yeah I expect that will be in the next Slurpee ad
17:15:22 <elliott> kmc: wait that's the same guy?
17:15:25 <olsner> I thought "they" were unrelated upset people who decided to go crazy
17:15:27 <elliott> i heard about the mit thing briefly
17:15:28 <Gregor> "Planting bombs to kill and maim innocents is thisty work. Slurpee™"
17:15:41 <elliott> maybe the dunkin donuts thing is a trap
17:15:46 <elliott> they know the suspect really likes donuts
17:15:46 <kmc> elliott: media is reporting that it's the same people
17:15:54 <Gregor> Yeah, the media suggests that they're the same.
17:16:11 <olsner> elliott: is that pronounced duffnuts?
17:16:13 <fizzie> The names were different in the morning, though.
17:16:16 <elliott> why would they be the same
17:16:35 <kmc> the suspects lived just up the street from me and apparently the cops are going to blow something up at their house later today
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17:17:04 <elliott> kmc: i like this mental image of they're just going to blow their shit up as retaliatino
17:17:55 <kmc> elliott: heh
17:18:02 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: heh
17:18:05 <kmc> hehs all around
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17:18:58 <olsner> aha, and MIT is in boston
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17:19:38 <Taneb> Isn't Cambridge a suburb of Boston
17:19:41 <Phantom_Hoover> and they were like "well cambridge in england was pretty sweet, we should get in on that"
17:19:59 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Microsoft Research has labs in both Cambridges, just to be maximally confusing ;)
17:20:03 <Bike_> "Actual Dialogue On Police Scanner // COP1: In and out real quick. // COP2: Yeah that's what they call me, John in-and-out-real-quick Smith."
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17:20:45 <Phantom_Hoover> imo: police should have to go through a mandatory joke training course
17:20:56 <kmc> Cambridge isn't a suburb exactly; the part that's across from Boston is about as urban as Boston
17:21:03 <kmc> both cities extend out into suburbish areas
17:21:12 <fizzie> Bike: Was COP2's name really John Smith?
17:21:24 <Gregor> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford,_Mississippi
17:21:47 <Bike> fizzie: would be weird, eh
17:21:51 <kmc> it's more like Manhattan / Brooklyn or SF / Oakland except for the part where Oakland is terrible
17:22:07 <fizzie> Now I wonder if there's any Finnish place names copied into the US.
17:22:27 <boily> fizzie: maybe in north flyover country?
17:22:28 <elliott> Gregor: does it have a university
17:22:37 <Gregor> elliott: The University of Mississippi.
17:22:41 <Gregor> Luckily, the University of Mississippi is as unnotable as one would expect the University of Mississippi to be.
17:22:45 <fizzie> boily: http://www.genealogia.fi/place/ apparently there's quite a few names in Finnish.
17:22:48 <elliott> a place in the south that's pretty finnish right
17:22:53 <elliott> do you know what i mean this is a vague memory
17:23:01 <kmc> fizzie: there were a lot of swedes and norwegian immigrants to the north midwest (Iowa / Minnesotta / Wisconsin), possibly some Finns or at least some Finnish names too
17:23:02 <fizzie> Yes, I have a vague memory like that too.
17:23:28 <boily> wooooah, we have finnish places in Québec.
17:23:40 <fizzie> Apparently there's an Oulu in Wisconsin, at least.
17:24:18 <fizzie> (Most of them seem to be just Finnishy names, not actual Finnish places; at least big places. But Oulu's probably in our top-10 city list. Not that that's saying much.)
17:24:23 <boily> I doubt the «Maki» places are really finnish, but then we at least have a «Île du Finlandais».
17:24:51 <kmc> place names are sometimes quite strange
17:24:57 <elliott> fizzie: right but i mean like
17:25:01 <elliott> the people there are actually descended from finns?
17:25:05 <elliott> and i guess they maybe speak finnish?
17:25:31 <olsner> they probably don't speak finnish anymore
17:25:32 <kmc> Elkader, Iowa is named after Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri who was an Algerian anti-colonial leader
17:25:51 <kmc> he saved a bunch of Christians from being massacred in Syria
17:26:21 <fizzie> elliott: There's something something something like that.
17:26:28 <Bike> oh, he was a leader in the invasion, not independence
17:26:39 <fizzie> They have some kind of being-Finnishy festival maybe and something.
17:26:49 <olsner> in a rhotic(?) accent I guess Qadir and Qaida would sound the same
17:26:55 <boily> what does it feel like to be finnishy?
17:27:01 <fizzie> There was an article about some place like that in Finnair's in-flight magazine.
17:27:01 <kmc> '... October 16, 1852, when he was released by then-President Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte and given an annual pension of 100 000 francs on taking an oath never again to disturb Algeria'
17:27:10 <Bike> and he was a freemason
17:27:14 <kmc> so then he's like "fuck it, moving to Damascus"
17:27:19 <HackEgo> 690) <olsner> I think I know less about rhotic accents now than I have ever known before
17:27:22 <Gregor> olsner: You mean non-rhotic, and not really.
17:27:40 <fizzie> "Today, the greatest concentration of Finnish Americans is in Michigan Upper Peninsula, where they form 16% of the population, and are the largest ancestral group in the peninsula's western counties.[3] The largest Finnish community in the United States, and the largest outside of Fennoscandia, is in Lake Worth, Florida, south of West Palm Beach, Florida. WLUC-TV in Michigan’s Upper ...
17:27:46 <fizzie> ... Peninsula, broadcasts the country's only Finnish cultural show weekly. The show called “Finland Calling” is hosted by Carl Pellonpaa and will be celebrating its 50th anniversary on air in March 2012.[4] Stanton Township, Michigan is the place in the U.S. with the largest proportion of people with Finnish ancestry, at 47%.[5]"
17:27:51 <fizzie> It was probably one of those.
17:28:22 <fizzie> Probably Lake Worth, because they have a yearly "Finlandia Week".
17:29:35 <elliott> right michigan sounds about right
17:31:04 <fizzie> "The Finnish sauna and the concept of sisu have been adopted widely by residents of the Upper Peninsula."
17:31:56 <fizzie> "Street signs in Hancock appear in English and Finnish to celebrate this heritage." I think that would be quite weird to run across accidentally.
17:32:34 <pikhq_> fizzie: Lindsborg, KS would probably also be weird to come across by accident.
17:32:39 <kmc> is finlandia like portlandia
17:32:57 <FireFly> Lindsborg sounds suspiciously swedish
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17:33:35 <pikhq_> It's a town settled by Swedish immigrants that plays up its heritage.
17:33:37 <fizzie> "Some Finnish foods such as juustoa (squeaky cheese, essentially a cheese curd, like Leipäjuusto) and sauna makkara (a ring-bologna sausage) have become so ubiquitous in Upper Peninsula cuisine --" what. "juustoa" just means "cheese" (partitive case), and "sauna makkara" should be written without a space.
17:35:03 <boily> one point French has got right is the partitive case. tack a «du» or «de la» in front of a noun, and that's it!
17:35:45 <boily> (or «des», if you feel like it.)
17:35:45 <Bike> americofinnish
17:36:05 <fizzie> We mostly just add "-a", sometimes "-ta" if necessary.
17:36:47 <boily> darn. Finnish's simpler.
17:37:24 <fizzie> ...I guess it does vowel harmony thing so that it's sometimes -ä, and I guess consonant gradation occurs in the stem...
17:37:47 <fizzie> Maybe it's not so simple.
17:38:41 <boily> saved by the vowel härmony.
17:39:42 <fizzie> Like, "mäki" turns into "mäkeä", but not all "-i"-ending words do, I guess it could depend on the constant.
17:40:02 <zzo38> I am working on making some Dungeons&Dragons prestige classes
17:40:11 <fizzie> "Characteristic ending: -ta/-tä, where the 't' elides if intervocalic. The consonant stem of a noun (if any) comes from the partitive singular. Otherwise the ending is added to the strong vowel stem."
17:43:41 <fizzie> Bah, it's not like native speakers would ever know anything about the grammar of their own language.
17:44:29 <HackEgo> unisemmissäni arvaitsi happivaltasa leimme kuuloisemmiksen alimen moittäviin liukiosta ajakseen tolisimmana korissansa jatkeaksensä avullituilta alisella harvostaan pakatkalla fasi milla paksavillätyn saani ikärrettävistavampii näköissänne vainasi käynnillasi rajoistaan
17:44:59 <Gregor> I would live in a city called Happivaltasa or Harvostaan.
17:45:03 <boily> people here can't make no difference between -er/-é/-ée/-és/-ées/-ez/-ai.
17:45:12 <Gregor> Happivaltasa is better than Sadvaltassa.
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17:53:55 <fizzie> "Happivalta" would be something like "oxygen rule/reign/power/authority/etc". ('valta' is a bit difficult to translate exactly.)
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18:09:45 <Gregor> I'd name some zero-carbon-footprint hippyville "Happivalta"
18:10:27 <kmc> i interpreted "oxygen authority" as the ruling body that decides who gets oxygen in some post-apocalyptic dystopia
18:11:01 <kmc> speaking of post-apocalyptic, here are photos of Cambridge on lockdown: http://www.cambridgeday.com/2013/04/19/nice-shot-cambridge-on-lockdown/
18:11:31 <kmc> 'Neighbors describe bombing suspect as a normal, quiet student'
18:11:34 <kmc> it's always a normal, quiet student
18:11:41 <kmc> also this channel is full of normal, quiet students
18:11:44 <elliott> speaking of post-apocalyptic, massachusetts
18:11:46 * kmc is scared now
18:11:55 <Gregor> I am neither normal nor quiet.
18:12:00 <elliott> are you sure this channel is full of normal, quiet students
18:12:02 <boily> since when students are normally quiet??? students are loud, obnoxious and studenty!
18:12:03 <Gregor> I'm wearing orange slacks today.
18:12:04 <kmc> elliott: you're just bitter because we kicked your asses 238 years ago
18:12:19 <elliott> that photo looks like it was taken in the 70s
18:12:19 <olsner> I am "normal" and quiet
18:12:24 <elliott> like it has the colour all buildings in photos from the 70s do
18:12:32 <olsner> no longer a student though!
18:12:35 <Gregor> elliott: It's probably some Instagram bullshit.
18:12:36 <kmc> yeah i think it was instagrammed or some shit
18:18:08 <kmc> in between utterances?
18:28:52 <fizzie> kmc: That's how I interpreted "Happivalta" too.
18:29:15 <fizzie> (I'm quiet and... normal.)
18:30:06 <boily> if there's one thing that SATW has taught me, is that Finnish people are quiet.
18:30:46 <fizzie> Either as a ruling body, or possibly as a description of the system of government.
18:31:46 <fizzie> Hey, there's a new Finland-specific SATW up.
18:31:58 <fizzie> (I only check it monthly or so.)
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18:33:18 <Gregor> "Today was a good day."
18:33:28 <fizzie> The people in the video in the link are speaking Russian or something similar, though.
18:33:55 <Gregor> Aww :(. Maybe they're from... uh, the Russian part of Finland.
18:34:17 <fizzie> The license plats on the cars look Finnish.
18:34:34 <fizzie> Could be Russian tourists, why would a Finn videograph such an everyday occurrence?
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18:39:37 <metasepia> A pleat is a type of fold formed by doubling fabric back upon itself and securing it in place.
18:39:43 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a cycle.
18:42:57 <Gregor> I have NEVER heard a pleat called a "plait" or a "plat".
18:43:01 <Gregor> "Plait" sounds Irish to me.
18:46:13 <fizzie> There sure are a lot of physics pleatformers these days.
18:46:50 <fizzie> Lookitthat, Portal 2 is 75% off. I should've waited.
18:46:58 <fizzie> (I think it was 66% off when I bought it.)
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19:50:18 <Taneb> I just rewatched a film I last saw when I was about 6
19:50:25 <Taneb> It was pretty good
19:51:12 <boily> was it jurassic park?
19:51:29 <Taneb> It was the Emperor's New Groove
19:52:34 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUFzV3Mpzfw still the best scene from that movie
19:58:36 <kmc> i dunno, i think "Why do we even *have* that lever?" is the take-away quote from that movie
19:58:45 <kmc> useful in so many situations
19:59:03 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUKBaFetJY "nice" syria short film thing by frontline
19:59:43 <Fiora> that movie, just, that movie
19:59:56 <Bike> i'll turn him into a fly, a harmless little fly
20:07:49 <Taneb> I also like today's Freefall
20:11:54 <Taneb> ...it's been in the same short story arc since 2007
20:12:29 <Taneb> For about as long as I've been reading it
20:12:37 <boily> speaking about webcomics, has anything significative happened in the past few months of Girl Genius?
20:14:42 <boily> guess I have no choice but to drudge through that castle arc, then.
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20:19:19 <Taneb> You're free to do whatever you want!
20:19:19 <Taneb> Give up on Girl Genius and read El Goonish Shive if you want to!
20:19:52 <boily> Taneb: ah no. I dropped EGS too!
20:19:57 -!- Zerker has joined.
20:19:57 <metasepia> CYUL 192000Z 16019KT 30SM FEW060 SCT090 OVC160 21/12 A2944 RMK SC1AC3AS4 SLP969 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
20:20:21 <Taneb> Send an email to that guy my dad used to work with to finish Goost 26!
20:21:17 <Taneb> http://goost26.blogspot.co.uk/
20:22:55 <boily> by fear of a NSFW link, I'll be trying to remember to click on that sometime later.
20:23:29 <boily> oh well. here it goes.
20:23:36 <Taneb> It's a promising but orphaned sci-fi comic
20:24:06 <boily> the click, it was made. the scroll rolled, the page viewed, the 2009 noted.
20:27:35 <Taneb> Gunnerkrigg Court?
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20:35:19 <Fiora> Bike: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/newsandevents/grb this is cool~
20:35:56 <Fiora> "[...] from a theoretical point of view we didn’t initially expect explosions at all. The amazing thing is that nature seems to have found ways of blowing up a wide range of stars in the most dramatic and violent way.”
20:36:52 <oklofok> http://rnd.fi/ukkopeli/ i made a new game
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20:37:48 <elliott> oklofok: your website is very professional
20:38:03 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/abs/1212.2392 oh cool there's a paper
20:38:49 <Fiora> wow, it lasted like 7 hours...
20:39:05 <elliott> oklofok: how do you play the game is it a secret
20:39:06 <boily> oklofok: uhm... there's a green square falling down?
20:39:16 <oklofok> elliott: yes it's very professional
20:39:30 <Bike> how do we observe GRBs
20:39:40 <Bike> since i was under the impression that a GRB hitting Earth would kil everything
20:39:59 <Fiora> I think it's "a gamma ray burst from a supernova 100 light years away, pointed directly at us, might destroy the ozone layer"?
20:40:22 <oklofok> i can make it faster if you have a slow computer
20:40:46 <Bike> Fiora: so is it like far away
20:40:53 <elliott> i can see my green thing fall step by step
20:41:03 <elliott> and it can take a little while for my keypress to happen
20:41:18 <Fiora> Bike: the redshift is z=0.677
20:41:24 <oklofok> it's supposed to be jittery
20:41:36 <oklofok> hard to make the ai otherwise
20:41:37 <Bike> this may shock you but i have no idea what that means distance-wise
20:42:02 <oklofok> well it should move 4 times a second
20:42:15 <elliott> right it's about that slow I guess
20:42:30 <Fiora> um, this calculator says 7.9GLy comoving distance
20:42:39 <Bike> that's pretty far
20:42:41 <Fiora> 13.33 GLy luminosity distance
20:42:51 <Fiora> comoving is I think the normal one ("how far the light took to get to us")
20:42:56 <elliott> oklofok: it feels like my keypresses are dropped if i don't make them at the "right moment"
20:42:58 <Fiora> vs luminosity ("how far it is now")
20:43:15 <Bike> so that's several billion lightyears
20:43:18 <shachaf> oklofok: i got over 179 points in your game
20:43:22 <Fiora> that's a lot of light years
20:43:28 <oklofok> j and l are something you hold
20:43:50 <fizzie> I am getting points and I am not pressing anything.
20:43:52 <Fiora> I don't think there are any candidate stares remotely close enough to be dangerous, GRB-wise?
20:43:57 <oklofok> shachaf: i think that's roughly how much you get if you wait for the guys to hop up and just jump down then?
20:44:03 <Fiora> there's one that's close-ish but its axis isn't aimed anywhere near us
20:44:09 <fizzie> It is at 400 and counting now.
20:44:09 <Bike> well that's "good"
20:44:12 <elliott> imo this game would be more playable if it animated you moving between turns
20:44:13 <oklofok> fizzie: you get points all the time, and you die when the dudes catch you
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20:44:26 <fizzie> oklofok: But what if I'm standing in a place the dudes can't get to?
20:45:01 <oklofok> then you get infinity points i guess
20:46:09 <oklofok> so err, feel free to program other movements, just change the virostatemachine or ukkostatemachine
20:46:14 <shachaf> oklofok: whoa, dude, over 405 points
20:46:17 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_echoes also these things are so cool
20:46:17 <oklofok> ukkostatemachine is how you move
20:46:19 <fizzie> oklofok: I mean this is where I'm at: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130419-dudegame.png
20:46:30 <oklofok> virostatemachine is how the enemies move
20:46:42 <Fiora> they can use light echoes to image things that haven't been visible for thousands/millions of years
20:47:09 <Koen_> oklofok: HOW DO I MAKE HIM MOVE
20:47:17 <fizzie> Yay a thousand points. I don't think I'm going to move.
20:47:18 <Koen_> the red thingies keep coming at me
20:47:22 <Fiora> like they observed light from SN 1572 in 2008
20:47:23 <Koen_> and I keep coming at them
20:47:38 <oklofok> a state machine is new Array(number of states, number of buttons which has to be 4, function which takes current state and pressed keys and a function that tells you where walls are and returns new state and which way to move)
20:47:39 <Koen_> and I don't know how to move otherwise than in a straight line
20:48:06 <oklofok> fizzie: that indeed seems unreachable
20:48:36 <fizzie> oklofok: I suppose it means I'm going to have to leave it overnight. :/
20:48:37 <oklofok> moves you upward for 5 ticks
20:48:37 <Bike> "it grew from an apparent visual size of 4 to 7 light years in a matter of months" dag
20:48:43 <Koen_> oklofok: ok, j and l work
20:48:53 <oklofok> jumping works if there's a black under you
20:48:55 <Koen_> but i works one out of three times or something
20:50:41 <boily> “you are my gravity, gravity... ♪”
20:51:11 <oklofok> i mainly wanted to try "dijkstra with states", so you can write an arbitrary movement FSM and the AI uses that
20:56:51 <pikhq_> kmc: I hear it's still mad over there.
20:57:15 <FireFly> oklofok: mind making arrows work as well?
20:57:31 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v shachaf.
20:57:52 <FireFly> j/i/l are kind-of inconveniently positioned on dvorak
20:58:10 <kmc> pikhq_: yep
20:58:15 <shachaf> fizzie: ☝ elliott abusing his voice powers ☝
20:58:22 <shachaf> Remember when he was just going to keep Gregor voiced?
20:58:25 <elliott> 21:57:16 <shachaf> And then -v a few people
20:58:27 <elliott> 21:57:20 <shachaf> Even though they're already -v
20:58:30 <elliott> 21:57:24 <shachaf> -v them *again*, man
20:58:50 <shachaf> I wasn't talking about #esoteric!
20:58:56 <shachaf> In fact I wasn't talking about any channel.
20:59:04 <elliott> wait, what happened to Gregor's voice?
20:59:10 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
20:59:14 <Bike> you're dropping the ball here elliott
20:59:19 <elliott> it's ok. everything's ok. it's ok
20:59:30 <shachaf> elliott and I were sharing a little fantasy there.
20:59:41 <shachaf> Perhaps elliott can't keep real life and fantasy apart.
21:00:51 <elliott> but nobody else can voice Gregor like i can.
21:01:58 <Koen_> oklofok: http://imgur.com/W8gUtNi the red dots are now moving in a circle without noticing me
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21:05:14 <Koen_> oklofok: I kinda feel bad for them they're gonna go home empty-handed, their families are gonna starve and everyone in the village is gonna make fun of them for not catching any lil green dot
21:09:15 <kmc> Student's t test was invented for testing beer
21:10:39 <fizzie> Koen_: I have 6300 points at the moment.
21:14:08 <Koen_> the only things missing in that game are ladders and the ability to dig holes to trap the mad monks
21:14:34 <fizzie> They are mad monks? I've missed the backstory, it seems.
21:15:20 <shachaf> "monk" is actually an abbreviation for "mad onk"
21:15:32 <Koen_> of course they're mad monks! what did you think they were, robots? duh
21:15:34 <shachaf> But there are no sane onks anymore, so no one ever uses the word.
21:15:57 <FireFly> At least you could still get those
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21:16:50 <FireFly> I think what that game is missing is that it isn't taking place on a torus
21:17:26 <Koen_> but then you could just run endlessly
21:19:30 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Type_Ia_supernova_simulation_-_Argonne_National_Laboratory.jpg
21:21:13 <Fiora> rayleigh-taylor instability~~
21:21:28 <Bike> http://www.theonion.com/articles/breaking-can-anyone-ever-truly-know-anything-what,32116/ boston's going well
21:21:54 <Fiora> the onion on epistemology
21:22:11 <Fiora> " Is our only option to continue believing everything we experience, in a phenomenological sense, and ignore the true possibility that all that truly is, has been, and will be, is an illusion, a shadow cast upon the wall of eternity?"
21:22:47 <Fiora> http://www.theonion.com/articles/breaking-has-the-word-breaking-lost-all-its-meanin,32115/ http://www.theonion.com/articles/breaking-still-nothing,32114/ oh my gosh the onion
21:22:51 <Fiora> http://www.theonion.com/articles/breaking-no-news-breaking,32113/
21:22:52 <boily> “America's Finest News Source”, and I believe it.
21:23:02 <Fiora> the onion is brutal
21:23:35 <Bike> in non-onion news, Fox clarified for its viewers that Chechens are not Caucasian
21:24:02 <Fiora> is there like. a rigorous definition of what caucasian is?
21:24:10 <olsner> isn't chechnia quite close to the area called caucasus?
21:24:26 <Bike> chechnya is literally in the caucasus mountain range yes
21:24:35 <Fiora> yeah, that's... that's what I was thinking
21:24:42 <Taneb> So, chechnya is a good deal more caucasian than, say, Hexham
21:24:44 <Fiora> aren't they like, more caucasian than anyone here
21:24:44 <Bike> (the joke is Fox)
21:25:19 <Bike> it's pretty great how "the true" caucasians are historically Islamic and presently part of Russia
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21:26:46 <elliott> Fiora: caucasian it's kind of like rice
21:26:50 <elliott> http://mancunion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/couscous.jpg
21:27:10 <Bike> that's a shitty photo but i think i'd eat it
21:27:17 <Bike> the food and also the photo itself
21:27:29 <elliott> fuck you blame google image search :(
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21:33:57 <Bike> does category theory actually involve the word "superlarge"
21:34:02 <Bike> (referring to the category of classes)
21:34:14 <elliott> that does sound superlarge
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21:35:04 <Taneb> It sets my soul alight
21:35:44 <Taneb> (it's a song lyric I think)
21:35:51 <Taneb> (superlarge categories)
21:35:54 <elliott> Taneb.............................................
21:38:40 <Taneb> (ooh baby you're a foolish monoid, ooh baby I'm a semigroup)
21:38:55 <Bike> elliott: imo devoice taneb
21:38:56 <elliott> Taneb........................................................................................................................................
21:39:05 <Fiora> I read that as "divorce taneb"
21:39:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Taneb.
21:39:23 <elliott> we are probably married and don't even know it given that we live in the same town
21:39:46 <Bike> y'all should get really drunk, or like, whatever you do in hexha
21:39:49 <Bike> probably nothing
21:40:00 <Taneb> (you've got an identity~y, how long until we see a loop?)
21:40:40 <elliott> Bike: i have never met taneb
21:40:46 <Bike> that's stupid.
21:41:13 <shachaf> imo elliott should meet Taneb
21:41:18 <shachaf> and/or Taneb should meet elliott
21:42:01 <fizzie> And elliott should meet elliott, and Taneb meet Taneb.
21:42:19 <elliott> Bike: it's improbable, that's what
21:42:29 <Bike> "In 1761, the Hexham Riot took place in the Market Place when a crowd protesting about changes in the criteria for serving in the militia was fired upon by troops from North Yorkshire Militia." how ironic
21:42:35 <shachaf> fizzie: Those should be and/and and or/or.
21:42:36 <elliott> well it's not that improbable since i don't generally meet people anyway
21:42:44 <elliott> i've been here since 2004.
21:42:49 <Bike> imo you should meet people
21:43:02 <shachaf> especially when those people are Taneb?
21:43:16 <Bike> that's pretty mean to your good friend Taneb
21:43:18 <shachaf> i'm talking about the ==Bike part
21:43:29 <Bike> "Hexham" was used in the Borders as a euphemism for "Hell". Hence the term "To Hexham wi’ you an’ ye’r whussel!", recorded in 1873, and the popular expresion "Gang to Hexham!".[7] "Hexham-birnie" is derived from the term and means "an indefinitely remote place".[7][8]
21:44:15 <kmc> is it Hexham History Month already
21:44:25 <shachaf> every month is Hexham History Month
21:44:29 <shachaf> when you're in Hexham.................
21:44:37 <Taneb> We've got an old gaol
21:45:06 <olsner> when you're in hexham you're history?
21:45:17 <Bike> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/opinion/hextol holy christ
21:45:22 <Taneb> There was a riot in Hexham once
21:45:45 <shachaf> when is Taneb moving to America anyway
21:46:22 <Bike> http://www.atasteoftynedale.co.uk/Hexham-Abbey.jpg
21:46:36 <elliott> Taneb: have you ever been on the local news
21:46:50 <Bike> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/tourism/webcams is this a picture of elliott
21:47:19 <elliott> Bike: wow it wants me to install java
21:47:21 <shachaf> have you ever been on the global news
21:47:33 <shachaf> i'm not installing j a v a....... . ...
21:48:03 <Bike> elliott: well it looks like it's night there, along with the whole abbey thing i' assuming hexham is a few years behind in the tech department
21:48:04 <Taneb> Being elected to Youth Parliament
21:48:20 <elliott> okay that was not my context
21:48:41 <elliott> should i go run to the abbey and hold up a sign saying FUCK BIKE
21:48:42 <olsner> oh, the hexham courant has a dedicated section of farming news
21:49:30 <shachaf> http://guyopperman.blogspot.com/2011/11/uk-youth-parliament.html
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21:49:33 <elliott> you'll run there while i do
21:49:56 <Bike> see this is how you can bond, make fuckbike signs together
21:50:00 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm one of those people in the picture
21:50:14 <elliott> a fuckbike sounds like something else entirely
21:50:25 <Bike> it would, to a PERV
21:50:26 <elliott> also "Andrew Elliott" "Elliott" what the fuck
21:50:33 <Taneb> I don't think so, shachaf
21:50:55 <Taneb> For a start, there's 73 people here and only 4 people in the picture
21:51:26 <shachaf> um, most of the people here don't exist and/or aren't people hth
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21:52:18 <Taneb> And I'm pretty sure you are not me or Andrew Elliott or Tom Brookes or Guy Opperman
21:52:22 * Bike glares at taneb
21:53:17 <shachaf> oh wow in .uk they actually say "pupil"
21:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/opinion/hextol/we-re-left-without-a-seat-following-a-very-strenuous-shift-1.1036352?referrerPath=opinion/hextol
21:54:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: uh we went to do this golf thing with the school i was at at the time
21:54:51 <elliott> and they filmed it and used some of the footage
21:55:33 <elliott> Taneb: btw i don't know a single thing about guy opperman (actually i know nothing at all about hexham politics), can i apply my blanket hate-tories rule
21:55:50 <Taneb> elliott, he seems nice but he is a tory
21:56:20 <olsner> more news from hexham http://www.hexhamcourant.co.uk/no-title-1.202232
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21:56:55 <Taneb> elliott, I need to work out who to vote for in the council election
21:57:04 <Bike> you kids can vote now?
21:58:01 <elliott> Taneb: what are even the options
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21:58:48 <elliott> wow what the fuck the abbey clock is broken
22:00:06 <Taneb> In my council constituency (Hexham East) there's a tory, a labour, a lib dem, and a UKIP ice cream man
22:00:23 <elliott> http://guyopperman.blogspot.co.uk/p/profile_14.html hm this guy actually sounds decent
22:00:59 <Taneb> It's more or less the same in the other two thirds of Hexham, but only Hexham East has an ice cream man as a candidate!
22:01:11 <Fiora> oh my gosh. the first sentence of the description for "UKIP" on their google results summary
22:01:14 <Bike> vote for the ice cr- oh, UKIP
22:01:15 <Fiora> "Libertarian, non-racist party seeking Britain's withdrawal from the European Union. "
22:01:25 <Fiora> like. they actually say. "non-racist"
22:01:30 <elliott> yes UKIP do that in their tv ads too
22:01:34 <Bike> just clarifying!!
22:01:37 <elliott> "don't be tempted to vote for an extremist party"
22:01:44 <elliott> i won't vote for bnp *or* ukip
22:01:54 <Fiora> That's like the equivalent of "I'm not racist, but..."
22:02:13 <Bike> Fiora: it's not really the equivalent so much as the literally the same exact shit
22:02:16 <elliott> UKIP aren't racist they just hate foreigners!!
22:02:31 <elliott> also, probably lots of minorities?
22:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the scottish nationalist crowd are all, like, inclusive left-of-centre types
22:02:43 <Fiora> do normans count as foreigners?
22:02:57 <elliott> UKIP and BNP are sort of worryingly successful
22:03:00 <Fiora> go back to anglo-saxon rule. end the norman conquest.
22:03:08 <Bike> well at least you're not hungary
22:03:09 <Fiora> wait. anglos and saxons were foreigners too
22:03:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: yeah it makes me think scotland would be way better off independent, politically
22:03:29 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, thing is, the scottish nationalists just hate the English. The English nationalists have to hate everyone.
22:03:38 <kmc> 'Whenever I see people say "lib/lab/con parties are the same, I'm voting UKIP" I read it as "coke and pepsi are the same, I'm drinking piss"'
22:03:48 <elliott> Fiora: you could say the same thing about americans whining about all the durn immigrants
22:03:57 <Bike> we could and do
22:03:59 <Fiora> elliott: I totally do, and it's wonderful
22:04:12 <Fiora> "stupid immigrants", says the white people who are immigrants
22:04:12 <Bike> i've seen political cartoons making that joke from the 19th century
22:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean it's sufficiently devolved that cameron's ongoing demolition of the welfare state hasn't really directly had much effect
22:04:52 <Bike> (it was actually mildly clever, had a bunch of rich people yelling at an immigrant, and the rich people's shadows were immigrant-shaped)
22:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (did it have little labels? those little labels are the best)
22:05:27 <Bike> yes scruffy with bags and shit use your imagination
22:05:30 <elliott> shaped like the word "immigrant"
22:05:32 <Bike> no it's pre-labels
22:05:37 <elliott> deep politicale metaphores
22:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ("are you getting all these clever analogies i'm making like really these are so fucking insightful")
22:06:01 <elliott> political cartoons are kind of sad
22:06:15 <Bike> "has been described by scholars, different press outlets and its political opponents as fascist,[9] neo-fascist,[10] Neo-Nazi,[11] racist,[12] anti-Semitic,[13] anti-Roma[14] and homophobic.[15]" why did i look them up again
22:06:19 <elliott> do you think they put all the labels on immediately or draw something that could actually be subtle and clever and are like "no I need to be clearer"
22:06:56 <elliott> <Taneb> In my council constituency (Hexham East) there's a tory, a labour, a lib dem, and a UKIP ice cream man
22:07:01 <elliott> Taneb: wait which ice cream man is UKIP
22:07:04 <elliott> so I can avoid them on principle
22:07:10 <Taneb> elliott, the one by the sele playground
22:07:12 <elliott> (do ice cream men even have names???)
22:07:17 <Taneb> He has a UKIP flag on his van
22:07:19 <elliott> Taneb: oh fuck I think I've gotten ice cream from there before
22:07:28 <elliott> okay I don't think it had a UKIP flag at the time
22:07:38 <Bike> elliott: http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=277
22:09:55 <Bike> man i don't even get european politics. you have political parties that identify themselves with religious sects
22:10:07 <Bike> here in america our parties just identify with nothing, it's so easy
22:10:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_People%27s_Party_(Hungary) catholic
22:10:25 <Taneb> Yeah, but Hungary is actually fascist now
22:11:01 <elliott> american politics are like... so big
22:11:10 <Bike> yeah jobbik is all about putting romani and jews in camps
22:11:14 <elliott> how are you ever going to fix something that big
22:11:20 <elliott> imo it's like trying to stop a continent moving
22:11:55 <Fiora> a continent full of racist dudes
22:12:09 <Bike> hey! it's not all racist dudes. we also have tanks
22:12:49 <elliott> i'm reading the bnp website help
22:12:55 <elliott> “Just Married” – Or is it just a ploy?
22:12:55 <elliott> Homosexual “marriage” is part of the Sexual Bolshevik social agenda, operating within a destabilisation template to degenerate society; it is particularly aimed at majority ethnic European countries to lower their birth-rate.
22:12:58 -!- SDr has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:13:20 <Bike> fuck can i be a sexual bolshevik
22:13:22 <elliott> oh fuck they're onto the gay agenda. it's over, everyone
22:13:35 <elliott> abort abort abort (<-- subliminal anti-life propaganda)
22:13:55 <Bike> "majority ethnic" god
22:14:00 <elliott> the TRUE gay agenda: they want to legalise gay marriage
22:14:08 <Taneb> It literally means "things needing to be done". How is that not charged.
22:14:08 <Bike> as opposed to people who aren't ethnic
22:14:09 <elliott> the most frightening gay agenda yet
22:14:36 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it's great because you can use it to discredit literally any group who wants anything
22:14:43 <elliott> for instance the BNP have a nationalist agenda
22:14:57 <elliott> (but I repeat myself etc. etc.)
22:15:01 <Taneb> I have a maths homework agenda
22:15:12 <Bike> that sounds really boring, agenda-wise
22:15:28 <Bike> have you considered like, burning a cross instead
22:16:08 <elliott> the burning crosses for no particular reason we're just bored agenda
22:16:41 <Bike> i actually have a burning permit, very agendatastic
22:17:02 <elliott> agenda stopped looking like a word :(
22:17:15 <elliott> "Thank you for accepting cookies" wow FUCK you BNP, I never accepted cookies from you
22:17:26 <Fiora> agender agenda, the genderquee agenda
22:17:40 <elliott> The concept of “marriage” between homosexuals began to be promoted in the late 20th century, by Cultural Marxist groups such as Freedom to Marry.
22:17:43 <elliott> Now, even knowing that there are radicals in all movements, this doesn’t lessen the startling admission recently by lesbian journalist Masha Gessen;
22:17:45 <Bike> don't you see?? the agender people have an agenda it's right there in their name
22:17:46 <elliott> On a recent radio show she actually stated that homosexual activists are lying about their radical political agenda.
22:17:49 <elliott> dammit mesha gessen, letting the secrets out
22:17:51 <pikhq_> The genderqueer agenda must be utterly amazing.
22:17:53 <Bike> "cultural marxist" is the dumbest shit
22:18:07 <Bike> and like come on you know where homosexuality was banned? soviet union under stalin
22:18:35 <elliott> Bike: they were too gay. they had to control themselves somehow
22:18:42 <pikhq_> Bike: Well you see, "Marxist" means "we hate it", and adjectives are evil.
22:18:47 <elliott> or the sexual bolshevism would get out of control and destabilise everything
22:18:56 <Bike> adjectives, the great killer
22:19:07 <Fiora> so am I like not allowed to marry is that like. asexual marraige
22:19:13 <Fiora> which is part of the gay agenda or something
22:19:24 <Bike> Fiora: well given the usual "marriage is about babies" argument...
22:19:38 <Phantom_Hoover> your confusion over your agenda is just part of your anti-agenda agenda
22:19:41 <elliott> Less than 20% of same-sex couples already living together in California married when given the chance in 2008. In contrast, 91% of heterosexual couples in California who are living together are married.
22:19:54 <pikhq_> Fiora: I'm pretty sure heteroromantic asexuals are permitted to marry. But remember, marriage is for procreation.
22:19:59 <Fiora> Bike: there was actually some interesting bits about that in the article you didn't read because it was too long
22:20:00 <elliott> Clearly this is about cultural change and tearing down the traditional family ethic, since it seems that most homosexuals living together neither need nor desire to marry, though they do desire to radically change marriage.
22:20:18 <Bike> Fiora: oh yeah? (sorry about that but seriously it was like, twenty pages >_____>)
22:20:24 <Fiora> yeah, I know, sorry >_< I liked it though
22:20:26 <elliott> today i learned: not getting married is how you signal your desire to break down the institution of marriage
22:20:32 <Fiora> it was a pretty interesting reframing but makes a lot of sense
22:20:34 <elliott> definitely divorcing Taneb
22:20:51 <Bike> elliott: i think the idea is supposed to be "gays don't actually want to marry they just want to fuck up marriage" insofar as it has an idea
22:20:55 <Taneb> elliott, I'm keeping the car
22:20:57 <Bike> Fiora: psst i was asking for you to elaborate
22:20:57 <shachaf> elliott: you're not divorcing Taneb until we get some #esoteric grandchildren, hth
22:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> you know i find it mildly annoying that you can't get heterosexual civil partnership
22:21:26 <elliott> "If Margaret Thatcher was still in Downing Street, there’d be no need for UKIP." Those 14 words will come back to haunt Nigel Farage.
22:21:29 <elliott> Fortunately, the ever-growing power of social media means that popular anger over such things can now spread, take root and grow whether the controlled media mention them or not.
22:21:32 <elliott> So we need YOU to do your bit by spreading the following pictures and core messages with Facebook and similar powerful social networking tools.
22:21:35 <elliott> Don’t just pass them on to existing friends, get active on the web and leave comments and push these ideas and images everywhere you can. Help turn working class anger at Farage viral!
22:21:39 <elliott> Don’t let on you’re pro-BNP, it’s better to come across just as an ordinary, non-political voter.
22:21:42 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: My state has heterosexual civil unions. :P
22:21:42 <elliott> In fact, if you have time, you could take a little while first to create several new online personalities and then post from each of them agreeing with the other.
22:21:47 <Fiora> (basic summary: sex-positivism rests on the premise that "sex is nice", which is okay if you use the feminist definition of "sex", but in practice most of society calls a lot of things "sex" that aren't nice at all. and in practice, even though it shouldn't be, sex is largely about power and the expression thereof, which even poisons into non-heteronormative relationships.
22:21:48 <elliott> this is literally posted on the official bnp website
22:21:50 <elliott> those last two lines. amazing.
22:21:56 <Bike> elliott: ahaha they're supporting sockpuppeting? for real
22:22:03 <elliott> Bike: Don’t let on you’re pro-BNP, it’s better to come across just as an ordinary, non-political voter.
22:22:09 <Bike> Fiora: Yeah, that's the part I actually read.
22:22:19 <elliott> ten pictures of thatcher with farage's face
22:22:27 <Fiora> e.g. leading to the question of "which one of you is the man", e.g. "which one of you fucks, and who gets fucked?" and so any sort of feminism has to be aware of the danger of that fallacy, basically?)
22:22:33 <Bike> who the hell is nigel farage
22:23:02 <elliott> i have to say i am 100% in favour of the racist idiots arguing amongst themselves
22:23:03 <pikhq_> So many wrong ideas in there.
22:23:09 <Taneb> I had a dream last night that there was a canvasser for Respect at my door
22:23:17 <Bike> Fiora: yeah I know about all that stuff (unfortunately?), i guess it's pretty important to keep heteronormativity in mind for remotely feminist anything
22:23:18 <Fiora> (so basically "sex positivism isn't wrong, but it has to be careful of assuming sex is always nice which it is not.")
22:23:38 <Fiora> it was a good piece though, and had a nice section on asexuality too
22:23:49 <elliott> http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/we%E2%80%99re-not-voting-them-now-farage%C2%B4s-maggie-gaffe-hits-ukip-support-northern-england http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/faratcher-update
22:23:54 <elliott> this is the funniest thing
22:24:05 <Bike> before i click those links: do they have ads? i don't want to give them any money at all
22:24:07 <elliott> To get you started, here are three different photos of Faratcher, plus a different core message to go with each.
22:24:14 <elliott> Bike: uh not that i can see. use adblock dude
22:24:22 <Bike> ok i'm confused here do they not like thatcher
22:24:47 <elliott> well it's about the north and stuff
22:24:49 <Bike> was she Not Conservative Enough or what
22:24:57 <pikhq_> Fiora: By the way, which article is this? :P
22:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> well i mean she waited for those damn argies to attack first
22:25:09 <Fiora> um, let me find the link
22:25:15 <Fiora> http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/the-ethical-prude-imagining-an-authentic-sex-negative-feminism/
22:25:16 <elliott> thatcher was sort of not a very nice person if you are working-class
22:25:22 <Bike> yeah i know that
22:25:25 <elliott> so let's say you're also racist
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22:25:51 <Fiora> (it's basically a set of ideas/discussion responding to/complementing the kind of thing in "The Ethical Slut")
22:26:01 <elliott> like i don't think BNP are really fiscally conservative or whatever
22:26:23 <elliott> they're just right-wing because, well, you know
22:26:25 <Taneb> Bike, miner's union was edging for a fight, Thatcher said "bring it" and won. Many people are bitter.
22:26:26 <Bike> do they even care about fiscal stuff
22:26:37 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm off to bed now
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22:26:48 <Bike> Yeah, I actually just read a book on British capitalism, had a photo of miners being beaten up captioned "Thatcher rolling back the government"
22:26:57 <Bike> p. funny in a "human suffering" way
22:27:30 <elliott> they're literally nazis btw
22:27:31 <elliott> It has been claimed that the BNP has, since its foundation, been fascist. The party's predecessor, the NF, was overtly fascist, incorporating British nationalism, racism, and antisemitism into its core ideology. This ideology was taken up by the newly formed BNP, whose founder, John Tyndall, proclaimed: "Mein Kampf is my bible".[138] Piero Ignazi has said that the "proto-Nazi" mould of the NF, and the "generalised nostalgia for all sorts of fascist
22:27:38 <elliott> uh that probably got cut off
22:27:43 <Bike> "generalized nostalgia for all sorts of fascist
22:27:48 <elliott> fascist tendencies" and association with "foreign ideologies", which continued under the BNP, accounted for the lack of success for both parties in comparison to successful far-right parties in Europe, which disavowed traditional fascism.[139]
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22:28:05 <Bike> foreign ideologies
22:28:32 <Bike> need more of that authentic british douchebaggery
22:28:47 <Fiora> that's kind of amazing. it's like. "we're not nazis! because nazis /aren't british/"
22:28:58 <elliott> The BNP argues that: "To ensure that we do not become a minority in our own homeland, and that the native British peoples of our Islands retain their culture and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration."[16] Under the leadership of John Tyndall the party advocated total repatriation for all ethnic minorities.[155]
22:29:03 <elliott> When Nick Griffin became chairman in 1999, the BNP changed their total repatriation policy to only voluntary, a key policy which remains to date, offering financial "incentives for immigrants and their descendants to return home."[16] The party maintains that ethnic minorities legally in Britain are entitled to stay as long as they always remain the minority population demographically:[156]
22:29:09 <elliott> you can't make this shit up
22:29:12 <Bike> maybe that's why "It Could Happen Here" used the BUF instead of the GNP
22:29:27 <Bike> elliott: god how do you even try to justify that non-racist-ly
22:29:36 <Bike> that's literally a racial quota? how do you even hide that.
22:30:10 <elliott> Bike: "The BNP is not a 'race supremacist' party. The BNP does not claim that any one race is superior to any other, simply that they are different. The party merely wishes to preserve those differences which make up the rich tapestry of human kind ... to protect and preserve the racial and cultural integrity of the British people – and of others too – the party believes in separation ... To sum up, the BNP is fighting for the very right to exis
22:30:25 <elliott> t of not just the British but of all peoples."[167]
22:30:26 <Bike> hm, did britain ever actually have anything like that? the US sure did, is why I'm curious
22:30:49 <Bike> i don't even know how to respond to that quote
22:30:53 <elliott> these people kind of get votes lately :(
22:31:06 <Bike> i mean, racial immigration quotas
22:31:10 <Bike> bla bla Chinese Exclusion Act
22:31:15 <pikhq_> elliott: I love that they're speaking an immigrant language. :P
22:31:27 <pikhq_> The quote-unquote native languages of the British isles are all Celtic.
22:32:17 <Bike> if the book of invasions taught me anything, it's that the isles don't have any natives because new people keep coming in and killing the old oens
22:32:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure i really agree with the 'how can you criticise immigration, you're a descendent of immigrants yourself' line of thinking
22:32:31 <elliott> High-ranking politicians from each of the main parties have, at various times, called for their own supporters to vote for anyone but the BNP,[304][305]
22:32:40 <Bike> btw it's literally called the book of invasions. irish history what is going on
22:32:48 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: I mostly just think it's delightfully ironic.
22:33:00 <Bike> yeah, it's more a sillly joke than a serious criticism
22:33:15 <Bike> the serious criticism more or less boils down to "you're serious? you're serious. christ" anyway
22:33:37 <elliott> The BNP was also caught up in a dispute with 1940s singer Vera Lynn after she objected to the party selling copies of her White Cliffs of Dover CD on its website to fund its European election campaign.[322]
22:33:50 <elliott> In September 2007, The Daily Telegraph newspaper reported that Hitwise, the online competitive intelligence service, said that the BNP website had more hits than any other website of a British political party.[323] In 2009, the party's website came under fire after it was revealed that much of the merchandise it sold was made in Honduras, contrary to the party's pledge of "British Jobs for British Workers".[324]
22:34:28 <elliott> Great White Records is a record label launched in January 2006 that is described by the BNP as "a patriotic label".
22:34:32 <elliott> did they really call it that
22:35:14 <elliott> ok this is just getting depressing
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22:35:31 <Bike> fiora say something about astrophysics, you're our only hope.
22:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> so did you know enceladus is probably a better bet than europa for life in the solar system
22:35:57 <Bike> ok good effort.
22:36:01 <Bike> Which one is enceladus?
22:36:07 <kmc> i like cock too (why is this being discussed)
22:36:12 <Bike> saturn has too many damn moons, can't we blow them up
22:36:27 <elliott> i like how greg4 joined and left
22:36:32 <elliott> and in between it was literallt 100% bnp
22:36:37 <kmc> but not because of the cocks!
22:36:44 <elliott> i have a feeling `welcome would not have helped much there
22:37:07 <kmc> Bike: that's a waste of energy, you should slowly de-orbit one with a magnetic tether and use it to power a big laser for interstellar solar sail craft
22:37:13 <kmc> wel.... laser sail
22:37:21 <Fiora> yes let me find something that's not about groups of people who hate my existence okay
22:37:28 <Phantom_Hoover> (we know for sure it has subsurface water, unlike with europa)
22:37:36 <Fiora> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GRB_110328A
22:38:11 <pikhq_> Fiora: Hate your existence? Lemme guess. One of: not heteronormative, not white, not Christian?
22:38:15 <Bike> that's a lot of gamma
22:39:40 * pikhq_ only checks off two of those. So sad. :P
22:39:56 <Fiora> I was thinking the second since they seem to focus more on people-less-white-than-them than anything else
22:40:15 <pikhq_> True, they're a bit bigger on the racism than anything else.
22:40:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought 'heteronormative' was meant to be one of those big societal things
22:40:29 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/0601/0601261.pdf this is a cool paper thing
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22:40:42 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Sush you.
22:40:42 <Fiora> it's like a summary of academic stuff on supernovae
22:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> not a convenient property of individuals that makes them Part Of The Problem
22:41:16 <Fiora> no it's awesome astrophysics!!!
22:41:26 <elliott> b/c i love everything that scares Phantom_Hoover
22:41:31 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V838_Monocerotis this is also super cool
22:41:47 <Fiora> gosh this paper has like, pictures of simulations of core collapse supernova and stuff *_*
22:41:57 <Fiora> with like, neutron stars accreting 0.1 solar masses per second
22:42:54 <Phantom_Hoover> phil plait has a really good description of core collapse in death from the skies
22:43:22 <Bike> the human rights watch has a report by the same name. how confusing :/
22:44:00 <elliott> i know nothing about astrophysics am i bad
22:44:12 <Fiora> no! that just means you have so much wonderful stuff to learn
22:44:33 <elliott> Fiora: ok but one day I will die and learning things takes so long!!
22:44:38 <elliott> so I compensate by not learning anything
22:44:56 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: it goes around a phantom hoover in the sky
22:45:00 <shachaf> elliott: you're bad but i'm bad too??
22:45:10 <elliott> I had to explain that the earth both spins and goes around the sun to my mother
22:45:12 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: The Earth goes round because the great philosopher ROVNIDCVS declared it to be so.
22:45:14 <Fiora> pikhq_: also "white" is really weird. like I am pretty sure I am lighter-skinned than the average bnp person yet am not white (yes I know like, how 'whiteness' as a thing actually works but it is still so weird)
22:45:14 <FireFly> Well there's always lenses and stuff
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22:45:22 <elliott> and then she didn't understand how the moon could also simultaneously go around the earth
22:45:30 <pikhq_> Fiora: Racial terminology is fundamentally broken anyways. :P
22:45:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: imo that's less embarrassing
22:45:55 <elliott> she didn't know the sun was a star
22:46:01 <Bike> the history of "white" is really pretty interesting
22:46:03 <Fiora> I'm not sure I actually know how tidal locking works ._.
22:46:14 <pikhq_> I mean really, it conflates skin color, heredity, and a giant fucking list of bullcrap.
22:46:17 <Fiora> Bike: isn't the history, like, various light-skinned groups getting progressively added to the lump that is 'white'
22:46:34 <Fiora> so like at one point irish people weren't white but now they are, or ashkenazic jews weren't white but now they are etc
22:46:37 <Bike> Fiora: Yes, but there are specifics.
22:46:39 <kmc> the Czech Ambassador has put out a statement pointing out that Czech Republic and Chechnya are different places
22:47:27 <shachaf> if they're different places then why do they have the same name
22:47:57 <Fiora> Bike: yes yes sorry I'm oversimplifying <.<
22:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> also i tried explaining to my chemistry teacher once how the universe isn't expanding into anything
22:48:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: it: not found
22:48:29 <elliott> didn't she also reject evolution or something
22:48:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/it: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/it: cannot execute: Permission denied
22:49:15 <Phantom_Hoover> this conversation was precipitated by her implying that if we dumped nuclear waste in space we might fill it all up
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22:49:37 <pikhq_> Is there enough mass for that?
22:49:54 <FireFly> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\necho no.' >bin/it; chmod a+x bin/it
22:50:08 <FireFly> `it is a worthless command'
22:50:26 <Phantom_Hoover> she also... didn't think you could have pressure in water?
22:50:42 <pikhq_> I guess she's never heard of the bends?
22:50:50 <Phantom_Hoover> she said if i proved her wrong she would give the class a lesson off
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22:51:19 <pikhq_> I'd be tempted to just demonstrate pneumatics.
22:51:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: maybe it could get stuck in orbit
22:51:27 <shachaf> if you prove Dr. Gene Ray wrong you'll get $10,000.00
22:51:40 <elliott> Bike: btw what book on british capitalism did you read, i will look at it and then say "i should read this sometime" and then not read it ever
22:51:54 <elliott> but feel slightly more learn'ed (pronounce shakespeareanly)
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22:52:08 <shachaf> um it's spelled British capitalism
22:52:23 <shachaf> why do you think it's called capitalism
22:52:42 <Fiora> um. does anyone here have a nature subscription
22:53:11 <shachaf> i used to but it kept calling and it got annoying
22:55:05 <pikhq_> shachaf: èé look the same to me!
22:55:11 <pikhq_> (if I don't wear glasses)
22:55:41 <pikhq_> Of course, if I don't wear glasses I can barely tell that my screen has *letters* on it.
22:55:59 <Bike> elliott: "a very short introduction to capitalism" from oxford. it's like 150 pp., nice and easy for lazifolks like you
22:56:09 <elliott> Bike: well i have to like buy it and stuff
22:56:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i should probably visit my university's library some time you know
22:57:27 <Bike> psst it's not anti-capitalist... wel it cites marx some i suppose
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22:58:20 <Bike> shachaf: some of them look kind of bad, but oh well
22:58:28 <elliott> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Capitalism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0192802186
22:58:48 <Fiora> pikhq_: people blind without glasses club ^5
22:59:09 <pikhq_> Not quite "blind", just utterly incapable of reading.
22:59:09 <shachaf> Bike: hey did you see that talk which also had capitalism in its name
22:59:18 <elliott> i really should need glasses it's so baffling
22:59:25 <pikhq_> My mom is pretty literally blind without glasses...
22:59:35 <elliott> like i have stared at a computer screen for long periods of time for many years and i still have good vision
22:59:35 <shachaf> http://fora.tv/2010/03/03/Richard_Wolff_Capitalism_Hits_the_Fan
22:59:41 <Bike> shachaf: be more sp- oh. don't think so
22:59:43 <shachaf> i kept thinking that website is called fiora.something
22:59:54 <pikhq_> elliott: Much of it's hereditary though.
22:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> my vision is at the point where if i put glasses on it's like holy shit the world is in hd
23:00:02 <Bike> oh i think i tried watching it and then i stopped.
23:00:47 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i tried to picture that but then i realised i have no idea what you look like
23:01:12 <shachaf> like a regular hoover, except more transparent and meaner
23:01:13 <elliott> what's most confusing is how this stopped a first-person mental image
23:01:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://writeontrack.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/henry-hoover.jpg except more dour
23:02:46 <shachaf> Bike: have you considered getting a better attention span..............
23:02:57 <Bike> any number of jokes i could make
23:03:01 <shachaf> (tip, you won't get it from irc)
23:03:25 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/d6411fe8bf9a8da806d29cc5e7fcd0db/tumblr_mliw8vBvXy1qckp4qo1_500.jpg
23:03:37 <Bike> because elliott is bad at it.
23:04:01 <Fiora> mine is um. I think I'm about 20/400
23:04:15 <shachaf> why do people say 20/400 instead of 1/20
23:04:22 <Fiora> I think my prescription is about -5.75 or something
23:04:27 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think because you said it was scary
23:04:44 <shachaf> i think it's because Phantom_Hoover is a meaniehead?
23:04:57 <elliott> 20/400 sounds like a lot of 20
23:05:44 <shachaf> no one deserves Phantom_Meanness
23:05:54 <pikhq_> I'm a mere like 20/50.
23:06:13 <Fiora> basically I am a walking stereotype or something
23:06:42 <elliott> the good thing about stereotypes is that, unlike monotypes, they have hearing in both ears
23:07:41 <elliott> i think i may have made that exact pun before
23:08:16 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: paraplegics hth
23:11:59 <shachaf> elliott: you mean uk people?
23:12:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: the: not found
23:12:20 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
23:12:26 <HackEgo> Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
23:12:59 <elliott> Bike: how is the weather in luxembourg
23:13:04 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
23:13:07 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
23:13:10 <Bike> i'm not in luxembourg any more!
23:13:18 <elliott> you moved without telling us?
23:13:31 <Bike> it says /from/ luxembourg
23:13:46 <shachaf> how is the weather in california
23:14:02 <shachaf> Isn't it even hotter where you are?
23:14:16 <Fiora> oh wow it's actually 29 C today
23:14:20 <shachaf> Whereëver that is. I don't actually know.
23:14:31 <Fiora> that's. wow it rose a lot
23:14:32 <shachaf> It'll be over 30° here next week. :-(
23:14:36 <Fiora> it was like cold this morning
23:14:43 <shachaf> Fiora has too much air conditioning to care.
23:14:48 <elliott> ok i guess LA is actually in CA
23:14:54 <Fiora> it'll be down to 24C for next week
23:14:59 <Fiora> I'm a bit south of LA yeah
23:15:06 <shachaf> elliott: louisiana is not actually in california hth
23:15:15 <elliott> i was mentally envisioning LA as being on the opposite side of america to CA
23:15:21 <elliott> and both of them being on the opposite side of america to NY
23:15:29 <elliott> i think my brain does not understand geometry
23:15:34 <Fiora> your right hand, your left hand, your other left hand...
23:15:48 <shachaf> which side of america is boston in
23:16:11 <shachaf> are there any other parts of america? i don't think so
23:16:58 <elliott> the downside of america is that it has too many sides
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23:18:07 <FireFly> the upside of america is Canada
23:18:12 <Fiora> bleh past fail -_-
23:18:17 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:18:34 <Fiora> there, a chart of our dumb country place
23:18:48 <elliott> so the district of columbia is next to science fiction
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23:19:04 <elliott> and then you have los angeles, norway, and miami
23:19:04 <shachaf> FireFly: i always thought alaska was a plot hole
23:19:39 <Fiora> science fiction is on the opposite side of the country!
23:19:43 <Fiora> all the web startups are in science fiction
23:19:43 <shachaf> which ones are all of them
23:20:04 <shachaf> Fiora: hey, some of the web startups are way down here in silly valley!
23:20:52 <shachaf> elliott: MI is michigan hth
23:21:01 <elliott> okay wait isn't science fiction san francisco there
23:21:07 <elliott> and isn't san francisco in science fiction
23:21:14 <elliott> and isn't sillicon valley in science fiction
23:21:26 <Bike> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?=crSPpJx7Js4&t=7m50s is it true this is what drugs are like
23:21:54 <shachaf> silly valley is south of science fiction
23:22:28 <shachaf> Bike: plz add v to that link
23:22:39 <shachaf> did you just type it by hand or what
23:22:51 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crSPpJx7Js4
23:22:54 <Bike> isn't it an https
23:23:35 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry, it was just going to destroy your liver anyways.
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23:35:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fortifikation_(Migr%C3%A4ne).jpg still one of my favourite images on wikipedia
23:47:18 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scintillating_scotoma.gif this one is a lot more accurate I think
23:48:55 <kmc> sounds like they got the guy
23:49:01 <kmc> he was hiding out in a boat, on dry land
23:49:56 <Fiora> when they found him, they looked at the boat and asked, "water you trying to do here?"
23:50:01 <Fiora> he responded, "long time, no sea"
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23:51:53 <elliott> i think we are going to die of pun overdose
23:51:59 <elliott> (is that a thing you can die of)
23:52:45 <Fiora> if it was I think it would be the best way to die
23:52:52 <Fiora> next to like, sushi overdose
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00:01:22 <Bike> they did an interview with the tsareav's dad
00:01:36 <Bike> said they were stupid bastards
00:01:59 <olsner> the people interviewing or his sons?
00:03:15 -!- Bike_ has joined.
00:03:48 <Bike_> the dad said whoever did the bombings were bastards
00:03:54 <kmc> i heard they interviewed their uncle
00:03:59 <Bike_> their uncle went on a little rant about it and how chechens weren't like that
00:04:01 <kmc> "why do you think they did this?" "because they're losers"
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00:04:32 <Bike> cutting to the core of the terrorist mythos
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00:10:54 <kmc> https://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2013-April/008192.htmlnice
00:10:58 <kmc> https://tahoe-lafs.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2013-April/008192.html nice
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00:12:30 <elliott> that research project is cool
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00:15:02 <Sgeo> So, I guess there is a very good reason to verify that incoming data meets constraints that only happen to exist because the data won't contain weird things... if a service not under our control is buggy and would respond badly to weirdness that it should respond sanely to
00:15:36 <Sgeo> Trusting external services to be competent at security is a bad idea
00:18:38 <elliott> i like slept through _why's day
00:18:47 <elliott> http://whytheluckystiff.net/ ok
00:19:13 <Bike> <img src="Moving-picture-of-the-words-get-psyched.gif" />
00:19:50 <elliott> http://www.scribd.com/doc/136875051/-why-s-complete-printer-spool-as-one-book
00:26:20 <nooodl> elliott: holy shit i can't wait to read all of this
00:26:26 <nooodl> it's so _why!!! at a glance
00:28:39 <Sgeo> I should stop talking about work
00:29:18 <Fiora> kmc: that sounds really cool, is there like, a link to the presentation?
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00:37:07 <kmc> not that i have
00:46:27 <Sgeo> Is OWASP well-liked? Are any of its ideas flawed?
00:47:46 <Sgeo> Suspect in custody.
00:48:34 <kmc> Sgeo: i've found their wiki to be useful; it does vary a lot in quality though
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00:52:46 <Sgeo> "Common web application platforms such as Java Struts/J2EE, Ruby on Rails, and PHP can theoretically prevent developers from introducing most classes of vulnerability in the first place. However, the current state of the framework industry is more driven by features than by security; any conflict between the two is usually decided in favor of adding features and ease of use, as opposed to difficult-to-use security enhancements. Some framework
00:52:46 <Sgeo> s even have built-in vulnerabilities out of the box!"
00:52:56 <Sgeo> I am beginning to hate everyone
00:53:05 <Sgeo> Well, no, I was much angrier this morning
00:53:30 <Bike> wait why are you hating people
00:55:43 <pikhq_> It's generally good policy.
00:56:35 <Sgeo> Because an external widely-used-by-lots-of-organizations competent-seeming web service has a blatant security issue
00:57:13 <Lumpio-> PHP prevents people from making security holes
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01:19:16 <kmc> hi shachaf
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01:21:32 <shachaf> WE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, WARRANTIES OF TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, QUALITY, ACCURACY, TIMELINESS, COMPLETENESS, QUIET ENJOYMENT, NON-ENCUMBRANCES, NO LIENS, AND SYSTEM INTEGRATION
01:21:44 <shachaf> I really wanted a warrany of quiet enjoyment. :-(
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01:24:29 <shachaf> did monqy have any good messages
01:24:52 <shachaf> maybe next time, mnoqy. maybe next time
01:25:01 <olsner> maybe not next time either
01:25:14 <shachaf> maybe not next time, olsner. maybe not next time
01:25:57 <olsner> maybe never, shachaf. maybe never
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01:29:55 <Bike> huh apparently that's a real thing
01:30:19 <Bike> covenant of quiet enjoyment
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02:01:06 <Sgeo> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Don%E2%80%99t_trust_services
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02:51:27 <Sgeo> https://www.owasp.org/index.php/How_to_write_insecure_code
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03:49:20 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to become a cryptographer
04:17:25 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know C++ supports try-catch for constructors?
04:18:00 <shachaf> Foo() try : x(...) { ... } catch(...) { ... }
04:25:26 <Jafet> Did you know you can use a try-block anywhere
04:25:38 <Jafet> It doesn't have to be a constructor
04:26:10 <shachaf> The usual try syntax doesn't involve an initializer list.
04:26:13 <Jafet> void f() try {} catch {}
04:27:37 <Jafet> Sadly this isn't legal??? []()try{}catch(...){}()
04:28:00 <Jafet> Second class citizens
04:34:25 <kmc> shachaf: wow
04:34:27 <kmc> did not know
04:37:58 <shachaf> Jafet: do you know everything about c++
04:38:30 <Jafet> Nobody knows everything about C++. I'm a nobody.
04:40:39 <coppro> function-try-blocks are pointless on regular functions
04:40:52 <coppro> but serve a distinct (if questionable) purpose for constructors
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07:12:25 <oklofok> can you be reached in http://imgur.com/W8gUtNi?
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07:15:43 <oklofok> "<FireFly> I think what that game is missing is that it isn't taking place on a torus" one thing i'd like to do is to have a game where the play area is some fucked up manifold that changes its global form
07:15:50 <oklofok> but i dunno how that should work
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07:43:59 <oklofok> fizzie: it seems i have about 150000 points. i think i have to make some changes to the game.
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09:17:17 <ais523> I think I hit a new record for how undebuggable a bug can be
09:17:24 <ais523> basically, I was bounds-checking against the wrong array
09:17:33 <ais523> and thus any attempt to try values near the start of the array worked
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09:22:39 <ais523> it was eventually found via the time-honoured method of staring at the code without running it
09:23:19 <Zerker> As opposed to bisection search?
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09:29:39 <ais523> Zerker: on what? the array?
09:29:58 <ais523> if I'd thought "perhaps the first half of the array is being treated differently" I'd have found the bug much faster
09:30:04 <ais523> but it's not the sort of thing I tend to assume
09:30:32 <ais523> that'd involve trying to work out what the correct values were halfway through the code
09:31:35 <Zerker> Which is nontrivial even for one specific set of input values that has been proved not to work?
09:32:04 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sets_of_four_countries_that_border_one_another
09:32:17 <Jafet> I think most of my programs have been written for at most one input
09:34:05 <ThatOtherPerson> My favorite debugging method is "hit random buttons until it works"
09:34:58 <fizzie> oklofok: I have 184319 points.
09:34:58 <FreeFull> With code I write, I usually know what the bug is as soon as I see it
09:35:23 <fizzie> I think imma close the tab now.
09:37:11 <ais523> afk for a length of time that will likely be between half an hour and an hour
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10:50:01 <ais523> a bit more than an hour, it seems
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12:46:41 <btiffin> Thinking about a superhero eso. Should it be rigid, datatypes by hero, and action verbs by superpower? Or loosey goosey, code mixed as appropriate? Could be fun, detailing the Spiderman datatype, errr, non-trademarked-human-with-spider-like-powers (tm) linklist type
12:48:22 <Phantom_Hoover> suggn. drop the idea if it's just "a superhero esolang"
12:48:38 <Phantom_Hoover> themed languages rarely turn out well except as one-off jokes
12:51:25 <btiffin> Sound advice. Accepted. :-)
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12:57:00 <btiffin> Ahh, but my first, cbrain, is. That's what I get for being new ;-)
12:58:14 <Taneb> We all know whose fault that is
12:59:02 <Taneb> The blame lies with my maths teachers, of course
12:59:06 <Taneb> I have homework to do
12:59:25 <ais523> btiffin: thematic languages are OK as long as they tie the theme to the semantics somehow
13:02:46 <Taneb> What's that blog that's the best for linking people who say web dev sucks because PHP
13:03:44 <Taneb> I think this is either a kmc or an elliott question
13:04:28 <btiffin> ais523: I predict superhero the language will remain an idea, pondered and not much else, as per Phantom_Hoover's reality check.
13:30:55 <Taneb> ...why the hell does str_rot13() exist in the PHP standard library
13:31:06 <Taneb> Does that even do what it looks like it does
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13:39:23 <fizzie> "[str_rot13] Changelog: Version 4.3.0: The behaviour of this function was fixed. Before this fix, the str was also modified, as if it was passed by reference."
13:39:27 <fizzie> Nice that it had a bug too.
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13:42:02 <fizzie> But, I mean, the standard library has things like "hebrev — Convert logical Hebrew text to visual text" and "convert_cyr_string — Convert from one Cyrillic character set to another". One should not be surprised.
13:43:57 <fizzie> (From what I can tell, convert_cyr_string is like mb_convert_encoding except it has one-character special names for the few encodings -- k for koi8-r, w for windows-1251, i for iso-8859-5, a or d for x-cp866 and m for x-mac-cyrillic -- it supports.)
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14:33:12 <Taneb> I remember when I was little and lived in Australia there was a cartoon I used to watch that had a koala who used to say "Extra-ordinary!"
14:34:38 <Taneb> Blinky Bill, a googling reveals
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14:46:46 <Sgeo> I did play with REBOL a little, but not much
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15:20:31 <Taneb> In my head I just started comparing PHP to the English language
15:24:08 <Sgeo> That... is the most awesome comparison
15:25:22 <Taneb> It's a mess that people claim is easy but really isn't. It's a god-awful mix of half a dozen other languages, combining features from each that weren't meant to be mixed
15:25:41 <Taneb> It is inconsistent and has dozens of stupid, arbitrary rules
15:28:37 <Taneb> But it's still really commonplace, it's the de facto language because it is the de facto language
15:34:35 <TeruFSX> does english have a bizarre unusual name for some common feature
15:35:04 <TeruFSX> if so it is a perfect comparison
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15:45:28 <mroman_> "English is a god-awful mix of half a dozen other languages, combining features from each that weren't meant to be mixed and it's inconsistent especially when it comes to spelling.
15:45:36 <mroman_> Nevertheless, everybody uses it because they got nukes."
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15:46:08 <Taneb> mroman_, I think everyone started using it when the two most powerful countries were the British Empire and the US
15:46:09 <mroman_> where they = native tongues.
15:46:38 <mroman_> it's ruining other languages all over the world as well.
15:47:22 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I started it, so it really is
15:47:29 <mroman_> this conservation smells bad.
15:47:59 <Taneb> Basically, English and PHP are kinda similar
15:48:15 <mroman_> They suck but everybody has to use it.
15:48:43 <mroman_> It's probably already to late to push esperanto
15:49:09 <mroman_> If NK really had nukes, they could push it
15:49:16 <mroman_> not sure if they want to though.
15:49:21 <Taneb> Esperanto wasn't that great if you weren't from western Europe, I seem to recal
15:49:38 <olsner> NK would use nukes to force the rest of the world to learn esperanto?
15:50:19 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: no idea
15:51:01 <mroman_> Taneb: But asian languages probably all are very different from european languages.
15:52:26 <mroman_> Phantom_Hoover: Isn't it "Hey look at my nukes, can I haz free candy"?
15:56:07 <Taneb> I'd advocate lojban, but I don't really want to.
15:56:58 <mroman_> Some language based on logic.
15:58:48 <mroman_> I don't get it why they even wasted time invening lojban.
15:58:58 <mroman_> all previous languages failed
15:59:17 <mroman_> why would they have thought that lojban wouldn't fail too
16:01:07 <mroman_> you can copyright a language.
16:03:18 <mroman_> And I highly doubt that laws will be written in Lojban.
16:03:43 <mroman_> They actually want the laws to be interpretable to weird extents.
16:04:47 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, how naive
16:05:02 <mroman_> The judge is allowed to reinterpret the law as he pleases
16:05:33 <mroman_> which means that nobody really knows what's lawful and what not.
16:06:00 <mroman_> which is why consulting a lawyer is usually useless
16:06:15 <Sgeo> iirc, if you take two Lojban words and combine them in a certain way, you need to also know what that combined word means, not just the individual parts
16:06:18 <mroman_> because he can't tell you what you want him to tell you
16:06:45 <mroman_> there's a 50% chance he tells you "well, that depends on how the judge interprets the law"
16:07:43 <mroman_> there's no jury in switzerland.
16:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean it's basically the same here except the jury does the interpreting
16:08:38 <mroman_> e.g when making a contract
16:08:52 <mroman_> there is a "template" in the law for contracts
16:09:05 <mroman_> which states what is what when not otherwise defined in the contract
16:09:11 <Phantom_Hoover> but anyone saying 'lawyers are useless, don't bother with them' makes me think they're running their mouth off
16:09:21 <mroman_> some of the things in that "template" can be overwritten in the contract
16:09:23 <ThatOtherPerson> Really, what good would a programming language where anything you say is "up to interpretation" be?
16:09:34 <mroman_> And you would think the law tells you which can be overwritten or not
16:09:45 <ThatOtherPerson> (at which point someone will probably give me a link to a language like that -_-)
16:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "everything should basically work like computers, it'd be perfect"
16:09:49 <mroman_> the judge decides that as he pleases.
16:10:11 <mroman_> Phantom_Hoover: They are not useless.
16:10:18 <mroman_> but they can't answer all the questions.
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16:10:31 <mroman_> You can't tell them a scenario and expect them to tell you whether it is legal or not.
16:10:31 <Fiora> ThatOtherPerson: I think there's a joke about C and undefined behavior here XP
16:10:41 <mroman_> because they don't know it
16:11:33 <mroman_> There are absolutely no objective criterias for when something falls under copyright or not
16:11:53 <mroman_> you effectively don't know if something falls under copyright law or not UNTIL a judge said "yes" or "no".
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16:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> you can still guess at how the judge will interpret it
16:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> and i daresay for most matters a lawyer knows better than you
16:12:28 <mroman_> But guessing is not knowing.
16:12:48 <ThatOtherPerson> Really, it reminds me of how a professor told Isaac Asimov "Just because you wrote it, what makes you think you have the slightest idea what it's about?"
16:12:51 <mroman_> The objective of your laywer is to get the judge to interpret the law in a certain way.
16:13:02 <mroman_> but you can't guarentee that.
16:13:11 <ThatOtherPerson> Now I can't get the picture of the Python interpreter saying that to someone out of my mind
16:14:36 <mroman_> It's only murder if you brutally kill someone.
16:14:43 <elliott> what the fuck is everyone talking about and why...
16:14:46 <mroman_> but what "brutally kill someone" means depends on the judge ;)
16:15:41 <mroman_> If you kill someone by accident it's not murder.
16:16:14 <mroman_> it's not enough @intentional killing
16:16:36 <ThatOtherPerson> elliott: We're all having separate monologues that are only slightly related
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16:17:31 <mroman_> it's the judge who says if you killed someone intentional or not.
16:18:51 <mroman_> murder has to be intentional AND extreme
16:19:15 <mroman_> I mean, I'm pretty sure it's the same in the US
16:19:20 <mroman_> except the jury has more say?
16:19:27 <mroman_> If the law were clear you would not need a jury.
16:19:49 <elliott> are you sure there's not some kind of language barrier here... like if i make a detailed plan to kill someone and then go up to them and poison them or whatever i am going to get arrested for murder
16:19:55 <elliott> but none of that is very brutal
16:20:00 <mroman_> So your lawyer has to persuade the jury to make a certain decision?
16:20:06 <ThatOtherPerson> mroman_: the jury isn't so much for interpreting the law as for saying whether or not someone actually did the crime
16:20:22 <mroman_> Thet it's something else :)
16:20:30 <elliott> "If the law were clear you would not need a jury." <-- is this meant to be an argument against interpretation? surely you can see the disadvantages of a totally unambiguous law that covers every single case and is rigorously adhered to
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16:21:03 <mroman_> elliott: I can see the disadvantages, yes.
16:21:33 <mroman_> the ambigous law version has the disadvantage that you can't make a 100% statement whether something is legal or not.
16:21:46 <mroman_> until a judge decided on legal or not
16:21:58 <mroman_> in which case other judge later will usually refer to the previous ruling.
16:22:12 <mroman_> but they don't have to, of course.
16:22:54 <mroman_> As a citizen I want to know if somethin is legal or not
16:24:43 <mroman_> but it turns out that you don't have a chance in most cases
16:24:58 <mroman_> even if you consult a lawyer in advance.
16:25:13 <mroman_> except for cristal clear cases
16:25:27 <mroman_> Like: "Do I have to pay my taxes?"
16:27:10 <mroman_> It was about if you meet your friends to do sports
16:27:24 <mroman_> and then some kids gather and play with you
16:27:39 <mroman_> are you liable for what happens to those kids?
16:27:49 <mroman_> in terms of "parental watch"
16:27:54 <mroman_> or whatever that term is in english.
16:28:20 <mroman_> that's actually a simple question which occurs daily.
16:28:28 <mroman_> but he could not give me a "yes" or "no" answer.
16:28:57 <mroman_> and that's the day I completely lost trust in the legal system.
16:29:27 <mroman_> esentially every day you live in a legal gray area and you have no clue what you have to do and what not.
16:29:46 <Bike> is this a poem
16:30:17 <mroman_> because I'm very frustrated about the legal system :)
16:30:36 <mroman_> I'm supposed to follow the law
16:30:50 <mroman_> but the law can't tell me for sure if I'm following it or not.
16:30:56 <coppro> I SUPPORT THE FOLLOWING: ---
16:31:19 <Bike> --- is pretty rad
16:31:25 <mroman_> That feels like the state is mocking me.
16:31:44 <Bike> the state is mocking you, personally
16:31:52 <Bike> and snickering with its buds
16:32:02 <mroman_> and doesn't what me to know so he can beat me up whenever he wants to.
16:32:45 <Phantom_Hoover> the state is generally immensely concerned with persecuting random programmers
16:32:55 <elliott> let's face it you have 0 risk of actually getting beaten up by the state so why do you care
16:33:06 <mroman_> elliott: The risk of that is > 0.
16:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> and the legal system is set up this way for that express purpose, not because it's actually quite a sensible way of building it
16:33:42 <mroman_> If there's a risk I must be afraid everyday of it happening.
16:34:08 <elliott> right now there's a risk i will get so sick of this that i destroy the internet entirely
16:34:18 <mroman_> But I don't care about the internet.
16:34:24 <mroman_> So I don't worry about that.
16:34:50 <Taneb> mroman_ fought the law and the law won
16:35:08 <elliott> how many kinds of drunk or high are you anyway
16:35:08 -!- kmc has set topic: Bible camp's cancelled. | | I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE TIME CUBES | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:35:22 <Bike> a blank topic thing? what is this
16:35:39 -!- kmc has set topic: Bible camp's cancelled. | I am making the world better by CONFUSING THE TIME CUBES | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:35:52 <mroman_> my body doesn't process alcohol.
16:35:55 <Bike> i am the topic lawyer
16:35:57 <kmc> Bike: there were actually 50 zero width invisible multiocular Os in that space
16:36:00 <mroman_> and I don't do drugs because they are definetely illegal.
16:36:20 <Bike> "drugs" in general aren't illegal, what the hell
16:36:27 <mroman_> If I were to posses drugs I would be afraid every second that the police will find them.
16:36:36 <mroman_> I would literally be shaking.
16:36:39 <Fiora> I have ibuprofen in my bathroom!
16:36:56 <Bike> FIORA THIS IS THE POLICE. GIVE UP NOW. WE KNOW YOU DEAL WITH HEADACHES
16:36:58 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman_ you should possibly See Someone about your crippling anxiety
16:37:10 <elliott> Fiora: arrested for crimes against livers??
16:37:22 <mroman_> But turns out they can't help you.
16:37:35 <mroman_> They can drug you, but that doesn't fix the actual problem.
16:37:59 <pikhq_> I have prescription drugs!
16:38:24 <coppro> pikhq_: yes, some presecription drugs help fuck
16:38:24 <mroman_> also they don't actually want to help you.
16:38:49 <pikhq_> coppro: 'Fraid this one has an occasional side effect of hindering fuck. Alas.
16:38:51 <Fiora> yes I have prescription drugs too @_@ I even have schedule 4 drugs
16:39:13 <Fiora> one of the least regulated on the list? <.<
16:39:19 <elliott> 4 is the wimpiest one right
16:39:27 <elliott> oh apparently there is a 5
16:39:30 <Fiora> um, I think 5 is? I'm not sure
16:39:46 <mroman_> Drugs you have to schedule daily?
16:39:48 <Fiora> categories of restricted drugs in the US
16:39:57 <elliott> cannabis is schedule 1 and cocaine is 2 or something right
16:40:01 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act#Schedules_of_controlled_substances
16:40:11 <elliott> slightly badder than cocaine
16:40:31 <Fiora> e.g. codeine/cocaine/morphine/oxycodone are II
16:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> (why are drug classificiations always school-themed? there's a conspiracy here i'll bet)
16:40:55 <Bike> haaaa why are so many of the schedule Is non-habit-forming hallucinogenics
16:40:57 <elliott> ok yes cannabis is schedule I
16:41:07 <elliott> Bike: because they're bad!!!
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16:41:11 <pikhq_> Bike: Hallucinating is baaaad.
16:41:15 <Fiora> Bike: I think "schedule I" is "things with no legitimate use"
16:41:17 <mroman_> There are probably harder drugs
16:41:20 <Fiora> not specifically "it's worse"
16:41:29 <elliott> Bike: stick to safer stuff like cocaine and PCP
16:41:36 <Fiora> of course marijuana being on there is dumb but there's some logic to it
16:41:43 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: topical anesthetic, apparently?
16:41:47 <Bike> LSD has sometimes been used for alcoholism
16:41:52 <Bike> whatever, i guess, HIPPIES
16:42:02 <elliott> heroin is a "painkiller"!!
16:42:03 <pikhq_> Fiora: Things with no legitimate use, a high potential abuse, and a lack of any safety without medical intervention.
16:42:16 <pikhq_> Making honestly a lot of schedule I ridiculous.
16:42:22 <Fiora> yeah, it's kind of silly
16:42:55 <Bike> and it doesn't have alcohol, k
16:42:56 <pikhq_> In practice schedule I is "drugs that are 'scary'"
16:43:07 <pikhq_> Bike: Alcohol actually has a legit medical use.
16:43:34 * Fiora imagines mouthwashes as contolled substances?
16:43:36 <elliott> forgetting things; drowning sorrows
16:43:43 <pikhq_> Bike: A treatment for methanol poisoning is application of ethanol.
16:43:47 <Bike> well yeah, i mean like, drinking alcohol
16:43:57 <Bike> not rubbing alcohol n stuff
16:44:00 <pikhq_> By being drunk, you prevent the methanol from being processed in the liver.
16:44:12 <pikhq_> And so instead you piss it out.
16:44:17 <elliott> GHB, a general anaesthetic and treatment for narcolepsy-cataplexy and alcohol withdrawal with minimal side-effects
16:44:21 <mroman_> I like how I can turn a language discussion into a drug discussion.
16:44:24 <pikhq_> Well, except you are going to have a *hell* of a hangover.
16:44:41 <mroman_> I'd probably be a very bad politician.
16:44:44 <Bike> sorry fiora you're not really sick
16:44:56 <Fiora> elliott: if I had to guess a lot of the list seems to be very old and politics means it never gets updated/fixed
16:45:04 <Fiora> because then they'd have to admit they were wrong about an evil drug or something?
16:45:42 <mroman_> If it were a superpower I couldn't have it anayway.
16:45:44 <pikhq_> Fiora: Some people seem to assume it's on the list because it's evil, and getting it off the list is tantamount to legalizing rape.
16:45:45 <elliott> something about that old story of cannabis illegalisation being driven by the fact that it makes the black man™ think he's as good as the white man™
16:45:49 <fizzie> The schedulers are kind of international: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs
16:45:56 <Fiora> GHB is also a date-rape drug.
16:45:57 <Bike> nutt sack, what
16:45:57 <fizzie> Like, our law refers to those lists in that thing too.
16:46:05 <fizzie> Schedules, not schedulers.
16:46:12 <fizzie> I suppose process schedulers are international too?
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16:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, the head Science Guy What Tells The Government About Drugs (the eponymous Nutt) basically said the drug policy was a load of bullshit
16:47:00 <elliott> if it treats narcolepsy wouldn't it be like the opposite of a date-rape drug... (n.b. i have no idea how narcolepsy or date-rape drugs really work)
16:47:12 <HackEgo> Ekib: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:47:14 <Fiora> elliott: maybe in small quantities or something? but modafinil is way better for narcolepsy
16:47:24 <Bike> damn for a second i thought you were going to say everything i did backwards
16:47:24 <Ekib> sdrawkcab did i gnihtyreve yas ot gniog erew uoy thguoht i dnoces a rof nmad
16:47:31 <Fiora> so it seems like it doesn't really have any uses besides assholes drugging people
16:47:33 <elliott> ok who is setting up all the bots to reverse people
16:47:37 <elliott> with reversed versions of their name
16:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> whereupon the government demonstrated their commitment to a rational, evidence-based drugs policy founded on sound medical advice by sacking him
16:47:41 <elliott> it got old the second time
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16:48:03 <elliott> precaution: make sure your name is a palindrome
16:48:25 <kmc> onlinehome-server.com sounds like a domain used to control botnets
16:48:26 <fizzie> Incrementing me by one makes me a palindrome.
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16:48:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg haha welp
16:48:49 <kmc> didn't he get fired for that
16:49:03 <Bike> «In January 2009 he published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology an editorial ('Equasy – An overlooked addiction with implications for the current debate on drug harms') in which the risks associated with horse riding (1 serious adverse event every ~350 exposures) were compared to those of taking ecstasy (1 serious adverse event every ~10,000 exposures)»
16:49:31 <fizzie> Oh, I remember that horse thing.
16:49:53 <Bike> "He was asked to go because he cannot be both a government adviser and a campaigner against government policy. [...] As for his comments about horse riding being more dangerous than ecstasy, which you quote with such reverence, it is of course a political rather than a scientific point." hoo boy
16:50:02 <Phantom_motnahP> i think nutt also made the point that if you have a guest and you offer them a bowl of nuts and a bowl of ecstasy it's far safer for them to go for the ecstasy
16:50:14 <elliott> the primary risk of ecstasy is drinking too much water or something right, or is that a myth
16:50:21 <kmc> elliott: think that's a myth
16:50:27 <kmc> in fact that myth is probably harmful
16:50:32 <elliott> because it makes people not drink water?
16:50:32 <kmc> because way more people are hurt due to not drinking enough water
16:50:47 <elliott> can always count on kmc for my #accuratedruginformation
16:54:49 <kmc> happy 4/20 nerds
16:55:29 <Koen_> do I want to know what's special about 4/20?
16:55:55 <Bike> cannabis day hooray
16:56:13 <pikhq_> Except in Colorado, where it's healthy recreational drug day.
16:56:34 <Taneb> My favourite ice cream man got arrested for drug dealing last year
16:56:41 <elliott> Taneb: is this the ukip one
16:56:51 <fizzie> Taneb: You seem to have bad luck with ice cream.
16:56:52 <Bike> no it's the UKIP one sorry
16:56:54 <Taneb> This was the one by the high school
16:57:00 <Taneb> Not the one by the first school
16:57:03 <elliott> did he sell weed ice cream
16:57:26 <Taneb> He did sell cocaine ten pence mix ups, though
16:57:53 <kmc> more than ten pence I expect
16:58:11 <elliott> he got arrested for bankruptcy
16:58:45 <elliott> kmc: what's the price of cocaine #accuratedruginformation
16:59:06 <kmc> pikhq_: i can only imagine the crowd at CU Boulder right now
16:59:22 <Fiora> kmc: let me steal a joke a friend told me yesterday
16:59:25 <kmc> i mean even before it was legalized, this was a school where the authorities sent an official message warning students with respiratory problems to stay away from the quad
16:59:32 <Fiora> this is a special day, because it's celebrated by a well known, popular fantasy race
17:00:08 <elliott> i groaned in recognition solely because i've seen someone make that joke before
17:00:16 <kmc> <______<;[->++<]
17:00:24 <elliott> one of those love/hate days w/ the internet
17:00:36 <kmc> Phantom_monaD
17:00:37 <elliott> Phantom_motnahP: i thought you were reconciling with the elves
17:00:54 <kmc> Fiora: that's me
17:01:27 <kmc> elliott: i don't know how much cocaine costs
17:01:35 <kmc> i've never bought any cocaine or 'done' any cocaine
17:02:02 <elliott> kmc: sounds very "square", are you not "hip" to the "kids"
17:02:17 <elliott> i am "peer pressuring" you right now
17:02:28 <kmc> pier pressure
17:02:31 <Fiora> maybe with enough pressure, he might
17:02:34 <Taneb> kmc, apparently cocaine is really expensive
17:02:49 <Taneb> why didn't I think of that
17:03:14 <elliott> wow Phantom_motnahP you didn't tell me how hard it was to stop yourself revealing that your pun doesn't actually exist when you did it
17:03:16 <Bike> pier pressure is a serious phenomenon, it's hard to keep those things going in the presence of wave motion
17:03:55 <kmc> in the movie Mr T's Be Somebody or Be Somebody's Fool, there's a segment about peer pressure which takes place on a pier
17:04:11 <kmc> the protagonist is a small kid sitting on a bench
17:04:25 <kmc> and various 'no-good teenagers' come up to him and try to literally shove alcohol and cigarettes in his mouth
17:04:56 <kmc> and Mr. T stands about 4 feet away with his arms crossed shaking his head sternly
17:05:03 <Phantom_motnahP> elliott, i still really want to know how oerjan managed to get the mackerel one
17:05:04 <kmc> but doesn't actully intervene of course
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17:05:47 <elliott> kmc: this actually happened to me irl
17:05:58 <Bike> "The production drew strongly on new wave and R&B culture of the mid-1980s to appeal to children to respect elders, avoid peer pressure, and build self-confidence."
17:06:10 <Bike> Roots - Mr. T says "Ya can't know where you're going if ya don't know where you're from" and explains the symbolism of his gold chains.
17:06:30 <Bike> Recouping - When a kid trips on the sidewalk, "Dr. T" shows how one can preserve their dignity after an "absoludicrous" mistake by playing it off as a break dance move.
17:06:50 <Bike> Mr. T's Tale - Mr. T tells his version of Romeo and Juliet and gives a pro-reading message.
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17:12:11 <kmc> ah Romeo and Juliet, the inspiring story of a three day relationship between a 13 year old and a 17 year old that ended in 6 deaths
17:13:00 <Bike> imagine if most teen romances ended in six deaths
17:13:19 <Phantom_motnahP> i hate it because i had to spend two fucking years of english classes 'analysing' it
17:13:38 <Fiora> I can't take it seriously anymore because
17:13:41 <Fiora> I can only think of the DiCaprio movie
17:13:48 <fizzie> Two years of analysing Mr. T, oh, what a fate.
17:13:50 <Bike> imo, Much Ado > R&J
17:14:03 <pikhq_> It's one of Shakespeare's more boring plays. And fucking idiots think of it as being a romantic tale.
17:14:12 <kmc> i haven't read much shaxpear
17:14:27 <Taneb> I like Othello and the Comedy of Errors
17:14:37 <Taneb> And Richard II and Richard III
17:14:40 <Bike> shakespeare in film is just great overall fiora, you know there's an adaptation of Hamlet involving the "Denmark Corporation"
17:14:57 <elliott> i can't believe we literally talked about this weeks ago.
17:15:03 <elliott> should i say the same things about hamlet
17:15:05 <Bike> IT WAS A GOOD ADAPTATION OKAY
17:15:12 <elliott> no it's not just your line!
17:15:52 <Bike> it's hamlet In Modern Times, man
17:15:57 <pikhq_> kmc: He's a decent playwright that a lot of people misunderstand. Badly.
17:16:11 <pikhq_> First secret to Shakespeare: about half of it is dick jokes.
17:16:55 <Fiora> was it kimchee or shachaf or someone who wanted more astrophysics
17:16:58 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.0923v2.pdf
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17:20:04 <Taneb> I'm gonna go get ready to go out
17:20:16 <Taneb> elliott, avoid the golf club if you want the universe to stay intact
17:20:27 <Taneb> Also where is the golf club
17:20:55 <Taneb> Hexham golf club, not Tyne Green golf club
17:21:23 <Taneb> Oh god, it's right on the other side of town
17:24:07 <coppro> Fiora: the gun says 'SWORD 9mm'
17:24:24 <Bike> http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=238 shakespeare
17:24:27 <Fiora> you probalby remmber better than me -_-
17:24:34 <Taneb> coppro, there were two guns, I think
17:24:37 <Bike> excellent use of metaphor and... pathetic fallacy?
17:24:48 <Taneb> At the beginning they used a SWORD 9mm
17:24:58 <Taneb> But Lord Capulet (I think) had a LONGSWORD
17:24:58 <coppro> also this channel is wonderful
17:25:20 <Bike> lord capulet don't fuck around
17:25:26 <Fiora> I'm just remembering the moment where the guy is like BRING ME MY LONGSWORD
17:25:34 <Fiora> and he gets a gun made by Sword
17:25:37 <Fiora> and it is just the best
17:25:55 <Fiora> I think we watched it in class, I'm not sure
17:26:00 <Fiora> in like, middle school
17:26:21 <Bike> best part of that movie was mercutio though
17:26:24 <coppro> elliott: I just said it is
17:26:31 <Fiora> "The debris produces a small but massive accretion
17:26:40 <Fiora> (this sounds so contradictory out of context)
17:26:40 <Bike> how shakespearian
17:26:57 <coppro> Fiora: if you know what "massive" means, it doesn't
17:27:12 <Fiora> yeah, I know <.< the context is "it's white dwarf degenerate matter, so yes it's small and massive"
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18:25:28 <Sgeo> I think drinking hot coffee everyday broke my ability to swallow. It feels like I can only gulp now
18:29:58 <kmc> can you quaff
18:31:24 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: do something useful
18:31:53 <ThatOtherPerson> perhaps they could also tell me something to do in a useful manner
18:32:19 <kmc> contribute to Mosh: https://github.com/keithw/mosh/
18:37:29 <AnotherTest> although I probably don't have the required time/will to get into the project
18:37:35 <elliott> kmc is getting paid so much right now
18:42:37 <Sgeo> Would Mosh work well or poorly for Nethack/other roguelike servers?
18:42:44 <Sgeo> Especially due to the prediction stuff
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18:43:17 <kmc> probably well
18:43:26 <elliott> prediction wouldn't do anything
18:43:33 <Bike> a well-paid spambot
18:43:36 <Sgeo> Also, why UDP?
18:43:53 <Bike> it's supposed to work on mobile connections isn't it
18:43:55 <elliott> it's effectively doing the work of tcp in some ways
18:43:55 <kmc> prediction is pretty conservative by default; it will only echo characters if it's seen a character echoed on the same line
18:44:00 <Sgeo> Because keystrokes and c... ah
18:44:03 <elliott> except it's not based on sending a stream
18:44:07 <elliott> it's based on synchronising a state
18:44:08 <Bike> often not practical to establish a "real" "connection"
18:44:33 <kmc> yes several reasons for UDP: a) roaming, b) making your own flow control that's better suited to the interactive traffic c) synchronizing states rather than sending an in-order reliable stream
18:44:44 <Sgeo> Maybe that portion of the protocol could be useful elsewhere?
18:44:45 <AnotherTest> but... UDP can cause a lot of implementation hassle :D
18:44:59 <kmc> if a packet is dropped and the terminal has updated in the meantime, the server can send the new state; it doesn't need to retransmit the old packet exactly
18:45:04 <Sgeo> Although, I guess state synch is domain specific
18:45:08 <kmc> Sgeo: yes, KeithW has already applied it to video conferencing as well
18:45:16 <kmc> the state sync protocol is reasonably generic
18:45:28 <kmc> it can synchronize any object type with serializable diffs, basically
18:45:34 <kmc> you can join #mosh and talk to him about it more
18:45:45 <kmc> not yet :/
18:45:49 <kmc> you should add IPv6 support
18:45:57 <Sgeo> Serializable diffs and unique IDs for each state?
18:46:01 <kmc> something like that
18:46:07 <kmc> there's a paper linked to from mosh.mit.edu
18:46:09 <Sgeo> Because otherwise how would it know which diffs to use
18:46:10 <AnotherTest> kmc: Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't bother though
18:46:12 <kmc> which lays out the protocol somewhat
18:46:44 <Sgeo> Also, I can't remember that book on security that kmc recommended
18:46:45 <AnotherTest> software written in 2013 should do IPv6 I think tho
18:46:55 <kmc> AnotherTest: great, we look forward to receiving your patch
18:47:15 <kmc> Sgeo: The Tangled Web?
18:47:19 <kmc> it's about web security
18:47:21 <AnotherTest> kmc: I said maybe, which probably means "unlikely" in this particular case
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18:47:57 <kmc> AnotherTest: sorry to be sarcastic, it's just that we all agree IPv6 is a high priority, but nobody is working on Mosh full time atm
18:48:05 <kmc> KeithW is a grad student with lots of grad studenty work
18:48:07 <kmc> i'm a lazy bum
18:48:10 <kmc> i might start contributing more though
18:48:31 <Sgeo> "With coverage extending as far as planned HTML5 features, The Tangled Web will help you create secure web applications that stand the test of time."
18:48:32 <kmc> AnotherTest: in particular he believes (and I'm inclined to agree) that we can't really claim IPv6 support unless we also support roaming between v4 and v6
18:48:35 <Sgeo> Book sounds a bit old?
18:48:44 <kmc> because roaming is a core part of the Mosh experience
18:49:09 <kmc> and that in turn means that mosh needs to be aware of multiple server IPs and switch between them if traffic isn't getting through
18:49:16 <kmc> right now Mosh doesn't even notice that it's roamed
18:49:24 <kmc> it's just always sending UDP packets and sometimes they get through
18:49:29 <AnotherTest> kmc: do you allow public-key authentication with anything else than RSA?
18:49:38 <Sgeo> Can't roam during the SSH handshake, right?
18:49:43 <kmc> AnotherTest: all authentication and public-key crypto is handled by SSH
18:50:10 <kmc> AnotherTest: the 'mosh' wrapper script uses ssh to launch a mosh-server on the remote host, which prints a symmetric crypto key, and then it launches a mosh-client locally with that key
18:50:20 <kmc> from there they communicate using 128-bit AES in OCB mode
18:50:31 <kmc> this is great because it means the Mosh crypto story is super simple
18:50:37 <kmc> and all your strange SSH authentication methods still work
18:50:43 <kmc> AnotherTest: hm?
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18:51:02 <kmc> no it's a totally different protocol
18:51:03 <Sgeo> Also, writing NetHack in the language where every program is NetHack is super simple.
18:51:03 <AnotherTest> kmc: I thought this was like an extension of SSH or somethign
18:51:12 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/
18:51:34 <Sgeo> Surely the complexities of ssh in some sense add to mosh complexity?
18:51:47 <kmc> AnotherTest: the 'mosh' wrapper script uses ssh to launch a mosh-server on the remote host, which prints a symmetric crypto key, and then it launches a mosh-client locally with that key
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18:51:58 <kmc> then the SSH connection terminates and mosh-server and mosh-client talk to each other using the Mosh protocol
18:52:24 <AnotherTest> there is a mosh client running on the server?
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18:52:38 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah, but people already trust SSH, and keeping it secure is someone else's responsibility
18:52:43 <elliott> Sgeo: ssh is only used for authentication/handshakey stuff
18:52:47 <kmc> AnotherTest: no, there's a mosh-server on the server, and a mosh-client on the client
18:52:53 <elliott> have you tried reading the page
18:52:53 <kmc> you know hat
18:52:55 <kmc> you know what
18:52:57 <kmc> why don't you read the page
18:53:09 <kmc> or at least pay attention to the things people are saying in channel
18:53:21 <kmc> it spells out pretty explicitly at the top what the advantages over SSH are
18:53:38 <elliott> it's ok kmc. i'm using mosh... right now
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18:54:20 <Bike_> does anyone know chinese? you should traslate this two thousand page book for me because victorians can just go fuck themselves
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18:54:33 <Sgeo> Is there any support for decoupling mosh from ssh and using something else for auth+handshake?
18:54:36 <kmc> another advantage of delegating connection setup to SSH is that there's no persistent mosh daemon that needs to be installed and run as root
18:54:56 <Sgeo> There's a persistent ssh daemon that needs to be installed and run as root
18:54:59 <Bike> imo fuck victorians. fuck england
18:54:59 <kmc> instead you have one mosh-server process for each connection, running as that user, and it could just be running out of their homedir
18:55:12 <kmc> Sgeo: right. but people already have that.
18:55:21 <kmc> and would want to keep it even if they install mosh
18:55:26 <kmc> because SSH does some things Mosh doesn't
18:55:47 <kmc> Sgeo: there are examples further down the page of how to launch mosh-server and mosh-client manually
18:55:51 <elliott> well you need root if you want to log in as users
18:56:15 <elliott> probably not that useful now that people whitelist ssh users
18:56:21 <elliott> but running a bunch of servers would sort of suck too
18:56:21 <kmc> i know somebody wrote a wrapper to launch mosh over HTTPS, and someone else wrote one for SMS :)
18:56:24 <AnotherTest> so it uses SSH for the authentication, and the rest is a different protocol?
18:56:26 <elliott> you'd need... a supervisor running as root
18:56:30 <elliott> that starts up all the little servers
18:56:38 <elliott> unless everyone just put it in their crontab or something which uhhhh
18:56:41 <pikhq_> Technically it could use something else for authentication.
18:56:59 <pikhq_> But SSH is already there.
18:57:12 <Sgeo> "But you'll need working UDP."
18:57:32 <Sgeo> I mean, in the sense of people not having access to working UDP
18:57:38 <Bike> are there systems that don't have working udp
18:57:47 <pikhq_> Some particularly bad NATs don't pass it through sanely.
18:57:50 <kmc> if your server is behind a firewall then you need to forward a port for it
18:57:55 <kmc> one port per concurrent Mosh connection
18:58:16 <pikhq_> But those NATs break a lot of stuff.
18:58:36 <AnotherTest> You probably need root access to forward ports though
18:59:01 <Deewiant> AFAICT eduroam at our university blocks UDP completely
18:59:20 <Sgeo> Deewiant, ! How do you live without BZFlag? (iirc BZFlag uses UDP but I might be wrong)
18:59:33 <pikhq_> A lot of games use UDP.
18:59:48 <kmc> yeah, some really restrictive public WiFi doesn't allow UDP
18:59:50 <pikhq_> Blocking UDP is a sign of incompetence.
18:59:51 <Deewiant> I've never heard of BZFlag so I guess the answer is "without worrying about it"
19:00:05 <kmc> the only traffic which can reliably make it across the Internet unmolested is 443/tcp
19:00:09 <Deewiant> eduroam isn't public (although at the campus I guess it practically is)
19:00:09 <kmc> and this is why we can't have nice things
19:00:26 <Sgeo> Deewiant, fantastic multiplayer game
19:00:31 <pikhq_> Which is why you should run SSH on 443/tcp.
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19:00:52 <Sgeo> (Ok, maybe fantastic is overstating it)
19:00:54 <Deewiant> I noticed this when I noticed my laptop's clock being off by a minute or so
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19:02:23 <kmc> that's what http://www.rutschle.net/tech/sslh.shtml and https://github.com/stealth/sshttp are for :)
19:02:56 <AnotherTest> kmc: how does the "If the client changes IP addresses, the server will begin sending to the client on the new IP address within a few seconds." part work?
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19:03:16 <kmc> AnotherTest: the client is always sending packets to the server
19:03:29 <kmc> if the server gets an authenticated packet from a new IP, it will start responding to that IP instead
19:03:36 <kmc> the client can roam but the server can't
19:03:45 <kmc> (but we have plans to add some degree of server roaming)
19:04:11 <kmc> note that the client doesn't even notice it's roamed
19:04:17 <kmc> which is nice as far as making the design simple and robust
19:04:45 <kmc> for example it works just as well if a router upstream of you has roamed
19:04:52 <Sgeo> "The heartbeats allow Mosh to inform the user when it hasn't heard from the server in a while (unlike SSH, where users may be unaware of a dropped connection until they try to type)."
19:06:34 <Sgeo> "SO 2022 locking escapes
19:06:34 <Sgeo> Only Mosh will never get stuck in hieroglyphs when a nasty program writes to the terminal."
19:06:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: Tried to go check inside, if it says anything official about eduroam: "Aalto University´s web services will have an extensive maintenance downtime on 19.-21.4.2013. This is because the university´s data center is moving. We apologise for the inconvenience."
19:06:40 <fizzie> (Also note: ´ in place of '.)
19:06:43 <Sgeo> How does that locking stuff even happen
19:07:08 <Deewiant> fizzie: How do you access inside from outside
19:07:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: By... typing "inside.aalto.fi" to a browser?
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19:07:57 <kmc> Sgeo: there are terminal control codes to tell the terminal to switch to a different character set
19:08:02 <Deewiant> It might've been yesterday that I tried it
19:08:08 <AnotherTest> kmc: but it doesn't roam when you change devices of course. Could you add this if you public-key cryptography instead of AES OCB?
19:08:09 <Deewiant> "The certificate is only valid for the following names:vhosts.aalto.fi , halli.tkk.fi , hse-halli.tkk.fi , itp.aalto.fi , itp.hse.fi , kuore.org.aalto.fi , mapple.aalto.fi"
19:08:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: It worked fine last time I used it from outside, probably a week or three ago.
19:08:59 <kmc> AnotherTest: maybe, but the simple solution is to use screen or tmux on the server (which provides a lot of things mosh doesn't)
19:09:04 <Deewiant> I've probably done that approximately never which is why I just assumed it's inside-only
19:09:38 <kmc> it wouldn't be "instead of AES" so much as "in addition to"; almost every application of public-key crypto uses it to establish a symmetric key
19:09:45 <kmc> and public key crypto is more complicated to begin with
19:10:01 <kmc> so it would be a huge increase in the complexity of the security-critical codebase
19:10:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: It does require the (Shibboleth?) login from outside, can't recall if that was the case from inside.
19:11:03 <AnotherTest> kmc: Yeah. I guess you could do this too if you redid the key-agreement
19:11:36 <kmc> another thing people want is the ability to reattach to a mosh-server if the corresponding mosh-client dies (e.g. if your laptop reboots)
19:11:47 <kmc> and that's also not possible with mosh itself, and is also solved easily enoguh with screen / tmux
19:12:00 <AnotherTest> Well, that would fall under the same thing as device switching I guess
19:12:05 <kmc> but you do have to manually kill the abandoned mosh-server which is a pain
19:12:24 <AnotherTest> If every mosh client had a static public key I guess it might be possible
19:12:27 <kmc> or you do something like 'mosh host -- screen -dR foo' in which case the new mosh connection will make the old mosh-server exit
19:12:42 <AnotherTest> as you could use something like DH or FHMQV to agree on a new key
19:12:53 <elliott> mosh + dtach handles this perfectly well btw
19:14:16 <kmc> Sgeo: the locking control codes are obsolete because UTF-8 provides a way to print any character in a stateless way
19:14:21 <kmc> but some programs still use them
19:15:50 <kmc> for ncurses programs you sometimes need to set NCURSES_NO_UTF8_ACS=1
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19:45:12 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130420-fungot.flac
19:47:13 <fizzie> But would not explaining it ruin it?
19:49:00 <kmc> i guess one problem with convincing someone to drop out of college and join your startup is that you then feel really guilty firing them even if they're a shit employee
19:49:34 <fizzie> Hey, where *is* fungot, anyway?
19:49:52 <Bike> kmc: how many startups have you founded. like twenty
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19:50:08 * Lymia feeds fungot more hemlock
19:50:09 <fungot> Lymia: last year for a company of approximately 2 employees. the way i'm seeing the " fnord"
19:50:27 <c00kiemon5ter> fizzie, fungot is existence transformed into an irc connection giving life into a presense named fungot
19:50:28 <fungot> c00kiemon5ter: evaluating ( display ' ( " .ss". scheme-mode) auto-mode-alist)))
19:50:56 <Lymia> fungot knows Lisp o.o
19:50:56 <fungot> Lymia: nm, it works, so i was trying to
19:55:03 <fizzie> fungot.flac is what you get if you render fungot's source code (in DejaVu Sans Mono, rotated 90 degrees) into a 513x6592 pixel bitmap, then consider that image as a magnitude spectrum (for the [0, 11.025] kHz range, with 1024-sample windows and 75% overlap) and resynthesize a time-domain signal with that spectrum and arbitrary phase, as per (Griffin et al., 1984).
19:55:03 <fungot> fizzie: to address the limitations of your compiler. i don't
19:55:48 <fizzie> The "beat" is probably lines of text.
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19:59:34 <olsner> it's a lot less dissonant than I expected
20:00:22 <Bike> fungot should get signed with virgin babylon
20:00:22 <fungot> Bike: in all seriousness, but still
20:01:20 -!- rapido has joined.
20:01:40 <fizzie> The hiss in the background is because my implementation of (Griffin et al., 1984) had some... issues -- http://sprunge.us/PXGX -- when I tried to feed it a spectrum with that many real zeros in it. (So I just added a -17 dB (relative) or so background white noise.)
20:03:45 -!- xitrix has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:06:58 <fizzie> (The part around 50-55s in is the Underload interpreter.)
20:10:24 <rapido> topic? esoteric programming with multiset alternative evaluation model: {1,2} + {3,2:4} => {4,3:5,2:6}
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20:14:14 <rapido> {{1,2} {3,4}} => {1,2,3,4}
20:14:42 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:15:15 <rapido> oops: {{1,2},{3,4}} => {1,2,3,4}
20:15:59 <rapido> {{1,2} {3,4}} => {1 3,1 4,2 3,2 4}
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20:17:03 <rapido> i understand the model but interpreting expressions by hand is tricky
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20:22:16 <rapido> what does the following expression evaluate to?
20:22:23 <rapido> ({1,2} + {2:3,4}) * {5,2:6} ?
20:25:20 <rapido> {2:20,3:25,4:24,7:30,2:36}
20:27:06 <Bike> i have no idea what you're talking about
20:27:23 <rapido> Bike: good! so it's pretty esoteric
20:28:24 <rapido> i'm talking about a esoteric evaluation model
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20:29:21 <rapido> that yields 'alternative' values as opposed to single values
20:30:41 <Bike> if i had to do that in the way that seems natural to me i'd say {3:20,12:36}
20:30:43 <rapido> reference: prolog, generators, etc.
20:31:17 <rapido> Bike: interesting, what's natural to you?
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20:31:37 <Bike> well, i guess i'm taking the sets as ordered pairs
20:31:38 <kmc> you can write a multiset monad in Haskell can't you
20:31:40 <Bike> so probably not that great
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20:32:20 <mnoqy> Logic(T) might be satisfactory??
20:32:35 <kmc> Bike: i haven't founded any startups and don't think i'd want to
20:32:41 <mnoqy> list "almost works"
20:32:59 <kmc> it involves a bunch of stress and a bunch of non-technical problems and you don't get paid
20:33:37 <rapido> ({1,2} + {2:3,4}) * {5,2:6} => {2:4,3:5,6} * {5,2:6} => {2:20,3:25,4:24,7:30,2:36}
20:33:42 <kmc> i thought i might like being Employee #1 at a startup but I couldn't get along with Employee #2 and they decided to keep him instead of me out of I think guilt / obligation
20:34:30 <kmc> so i dunno
20:34:59 <Bike> rapido: x:y is supposed to be a range, yes?
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20:36:02 <rapido> so {2:3} + {3:4} => {6:7}
20:36:46 <rapido> Bike: may be you can suggest a better notation (without using *)
20:37:23 <Bike> nah i get it now
20:37:33 <Bike> just ignore me
20:38:54 <kmc> well you can see a multiset as a function from element → count
20:39:43 <kmc> so you could write like {5↦1, 2↦6}
20:39:45 <rapido> kmc: true, but i like to prefix the count to the element (syntactically)
20:39:59 <kmc> i recommend not special-casing the case where count = 1, i think that produces confusion
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20:41:06 <kmc> anyway if you implement this as a monad in Haskell then you can use all kinds of existing generic code to play around with it
20:41:54 <kmc> i guess it's hard to make a Monad instance, though, because you need equality on elements, and probably ordering or some hash function if you want efficiency
20:42:01 <kmc> so it's the usual "restricted monad" problem
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20:48:46 <rapido> kmc: equality and ordering is indeed very important
20:49:14 <rapido> every multset (of multisets) must be ordered
20:51:12 <rapido> counts can be fractional
20:51:30 <rapido> to make it more interesting
20:52:30 <rapido> more generically: counts need not be numbers
20:52:55 <rapido> counts need just to be objects that adhere to the arithmetical laws
20:53:55 <rapido> http://github.com/rapido/spread/blob/master/A%20new%20look%20at%20multimaps.pdf?raw=true
21:00:17 <rapido> counts as 'mathematical' objects does make things more interesting
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22:37:02 <Taneb> I need something to do to cheer me up
22:37:17 <kmc> masturbation?
22:37:31 <kmc> tv watching?
22:37:50 <kmc> applied cryptography puzzles?
22:37:54 <Bike> norwegian-murdering?
22:38:15 <Taneb> Bike, can't be bothered right now
22:38:36 <coppro> Taneb: helping out on NetHack 4?
22:39:14 <kmc> http://www.matasano.com/articles/crypto-challenges/
22:41:11 <Taneb> kmc, I've asked to be in
22:41:31 <Taneb> How long should the wait be, roughly?
22:42:28 <kmc> i think less than a day
22:42:40 <kmc> but i think they're getting a lot more responses now than before
22:43:05 <coppro> Taneb: you should help populate the NH4 bug tracker
22:43:16 <Taneb> coppro, but I suck at NetHack!
22:43:27 <coppro> we have several hundred bugs in need of filing
22:44:05 <Bike> are they hilarious as NH3's listed bugs
22:44:44 <coppro> Bike: we need to file all those bugs in the new bug tracker
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23:26:02 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flyting_of_Dumbar_and_Kennedie why do people not like scotland, again?
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23:38:38 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a historical figure that it would make sense to name the universe after.
23:38:57 <tswett> I'm thinking maybe Aristotle or Newton.
23:40:13 <Bike> aristarchus of samos
23:41:08 <Bike> er, Madhava of Sangamagrama.
23:42:04 <Bike> or Kolmogorov, just because he's Kolmogorov
23:45:52 <tswett> I'm just going with Aristotle.
23:45:59 <Bike> boooooriiiiing
23:46:08 <Bike> dude thought women had less teeth than men
23:46:22 <tswett> Yeah, but he wrote books about literally* everything.
23:46:38 <tswett> And a significant amount of what he wrote was correct.
23:46:59 <Bike> so did everyone educated, back when there wasn't much to write about
23:49:13 <Koen_> tswett: do you mean he wrote about *literacy* everything?
23:49:27 <tswett> He wrote about ludicrously everything.
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00:12:06 <shachaf> <bgates_> http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAd?AdId=476525281 <---- Bike + wood = Classy bike
00:12:54 <Bike> is this a fixie
00:13:28 <shachaf> I didn't look at the link.
00:37:02 <shachaf> how many functions of type Bool -> Bool are there
00:37:16 <mnoqy> is this a trick question
00:37:37 <shachaf> well we're counting ⊥s and things, does that count as trick...................
00:37:49 <shachaf> but now you know the trick
00:37:53 <Sgeo> There's the obvious 4
00:37:54 <mnoqy> 2^2 real functions, 1 for bottom, 1 for const bottom?
00:38:11 <mnoqy> different flavours of bottom?
00:38:13 <shachaf> like f True = True; f False = undefined
00:38:14 <Bike> can't you have bottom -> true, bottom -> false, bottom -> bottom
00:38:22 <Sgeo> Oh, we need to count outputting bottom on true, output bottom on false
00:38:25 <mnoqy> i hate this question
00:38:26 <Bike> shachaf i think this may be a dumb question
00:38:36 <Sgeo> So it's more than I forget which way the exponents go
00:38:38 <mnoqy> 3^3 and leave it at that
00:38:56 <mnoqy> i dont want any more of this
00:39:03 <mnoqy> 2^3 + 1 is my final answer
00:39:06 <Sgeo> If it takes _|_ in then it has to be const true const false or bottom (or const bottom)
00:39:19 <Sgeo> erm, takes _|_ in and outputs True of False
00:39:24 <mnoqy> hate this question
00:39:26 <shachaf> 13 is what i ended up with
00:39:26 <Sgeo> Screw the bottom
00:39:42 <mnoqy> oh right theres also
00:39:48 <mnoqy> yeah im not playing this game anymore
00:40:01 <shachaf> is this the real reason you use total languages
00:40:02 <Sgeo> I'd play it if I just had time to write it down
00:40:04 <mnoqy> take your question and go back to "cares about bottom"land
00:40:20 <Sgeo> As in, mnoqy's guesses are confusing
00:40:29 <mnoqy> not all of my guesses were serious
00:40:52 <shachaf> one of them was right i think "but was it only right by accident"
00:41:34 <Sgeo> m -> n are there (ign. bottoms) m^n or n^m I forget
00:42:09 <shachaf> think of () -> a vs. a -> ()
00:42:24 <Sgeo> shachaf's makes more sense
00:42:51 <shachaf> I,I f :: () -> (a vs. a) -> ()
00:42:54 <Sgeo> m->n there are n^m then
00:43:10 <shachaf> ANOTHER CLUE THAT WE'RE WRITING FUNCTIONS BACKWARDS, IMO YES
00:43:15 <mnoqy> Sgeo: tuples makes sense if you realize x^n is n->x
00:44:08 <Sgeo> So, ignoring input bottoms but not output bottoms, there are 3^2 Bool->Bool
00:44:10 <FreeFull> a _ = (); a x = x `seq` (); a x = a x;
00:45:33 <Sgeo> We can just add manually the 2 functions that are _|_ -> True and _|_ -> False
00:46:11 <Sgeo> So let's assuming that the 3^2 functions all bottom on bottom
00:46:30 <mnoqy> you also need bottom and const bottom
00:46:32 <Sgeo> Since that will help avoid double-counting const True and const False
00:46:41 <Sgeo> mnoqy, I can add those later or something
00:47:07 <Bike> so what's the point of this question
00:47:10 <mnoqy> yes but then you're playing into shachaf's hand
00:47:53 <Sgeo> We can also be bottoming on True but not bottoming on False, and bottoming on False but not True
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00:48:11 <Sgeo> Hold on, that may end up double-counting some in the 2^3
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00:48:54 <Sgeo> Yes, I've already counted the sometimes bottomers
00:49:18 <Sgeo> So it's 3^2 + 2 + 1 + 1 if I did not already count const bottom, but I did.
00:49:28 <Sgeo> So 3^2 + 3. I think.
00:50:13 <mnoqy> you're 1 off of shachaf's 13
00:50:13 <Sgeo> I guess I could try to make a list...
00:50:30 <Bike> yes just write them all out
00:50:36 <Bike> it's like phil 101 homework all over again
00:51:23 <Sgeo> mnoqy, where's the mistake in my logic, if there is one?
00:51:25 <Bike> i'm already bothered
00:51:55 <Sgeo> We could try 3^3 and remove the invalid ones
00:52:18 <Sgeo> Oh, 3^3 + 1, sorry
00:53:40 <shachaf> list out all your functions and i'll tell you which one is missing/????????
00:53:43 <Bike> srsly, why'd you ask
00:54:17 <shachaf> don't ask why things come up in #haskell
00:54:56 <Sgeo> 3^3 + 1. This includes a number of functions that given a bottom don't bottom but not given a bottom do sometimes bottom. There are 2 ways to not bottom. times ... argh
00:56:18 <Sgeo> bot -> 2,true->2,false->bot; bot->2,true->bot,false->2;bot->2,true->bot,false->bot
00:57:06 <Sgeo> 2 indicates two possibilities
00:58:10 <Sgeo> 3^3 + 1 - 9 = 3^3-8 = 19 = um
00:58:19 <Bike> Because e.g. f bottom = true, f true = false, f false = false doesn't work.
00:58:48 <mnoqy> sgeo your way of counting them is exceedingly silly
00:59:10 <mnoqy> im getting 12 so i just have to figure out what im missing (why am i doing this, fuck)
00:59:12 <shachaf> you have exceeded your silliness quota for the day Sgeo
00:59:13 * Sgeo sees a thinko and revises down to 18, which isn't much better
00:59:20 <shachaf> mnoqy: which 12 are you getting
00:59:25 <Bike> y'all need to learn how to stop thinking about things.
00:59:26 <mnoqy> 3^2 strict functions + const True + const False + bottom
00:59:29 <Sgeo> could shachaf be wrong
00:59:34 <mnoqy> shachaf is never wrong, sgeo
00:59:55 <Sgeo> id should be in the 3^2
00:59:56 <Bike> that's strict.
01:00:13 <mnoqy> oh right i forgot about
01:00:40 <mnoqy> id doesnt' need to evaluate its argument
01:00:59 <mnoqy> i hate this question
01:00:59 <Sgeo> But id _|_ = _|_
01:01:04 <mnoqy> i hate thinking about how things evaluate
01:01:09 <Sgeo> I hate typing _|_
01:01:16 <shachaf> mnoqy this is denotational
01:01:19 <Bike> q: is haskell church-rosser
01:01:45 <mnoqy> shachaf: bothering with how things evaluate is so low-level and also terrible and awful and i hate everything about it
01:01:47 <nooodl> protip when talking about stuff like this, keep ⊥ in your paste buffer
01:01:57 <mnoqy> i have to put that on my compos key
01:02:13 <shachaf> i just type ctrl shift u 2 2 A 5 space
01:03:48 <nooodl> huh is ⊥ a valid Bool → Bool
01:04:21 <mnoqy> ok shachaf spill the beans whats the function im missing. it has to assign bottom to something that isnt bottom or i would have counted it with the strict stuff, but it cant be const true or const false.
01:04:26 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/rekvmk4hgcukcck0ecwtw
01:04:28 <nooodl> or was mnoqy just saying "const False + bottom" short for "const False + const bottom" ??????
01:04:45 <Sgeo> I count 12 there.
01:04:50 <Sgeo> What's missing?
01:04:54 <Bike> > asTypeOf undefined not
01:05:23 <mnoqy> nooodl: bottom is a perfectly fine bool->bool in haskell
01:05:29 <shachaf> mnoqy: i'm confused by the way you 're counting...........
01:05:33 <shachaf> did you count const bottom
01:05:46 <nooodl> is const bottom different from bottom?? did i answer the question
01:05:52 <mnoqy> const bottom is strict ((const bottom) bottom = bottom)
01:05:55 <shachaf> nooodl: yes it's "different"
01:06:06 <Sgeo> shachaf, I made a list. What function's missing?
01:06:16 <Bike> where'd lambdabot go.
01:06:34 <shachaf> someone in #haskell said it was 13
01:06:43 <shachaf> and i said to him, no it's 12
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01:07:42 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/0a730e1546184ed8d363fce9a9c705e3/tumblr_mljz8bJ3t21qbhhv4o1_500.png
01:08:03 <Sgeo> const bottom should totally be counted as the same as bottom, so 11
01:08:18 <Sgeo> seq is banished from reality
01:09:54 <mnoqy> thats not very nice of you sgeo
01:09:54 <shachaf> okay now how many functions :: Maybe () -> Maybe () are there
01:10:17 <nooodl> uhh it's gonna be a trick but
01:11:03 <Sgeo> If a function gives n for Just bot, it has to give n for..
01:11:27 <Sgeo> Seems very pyramidy
01:12:21 <Sgeo> 3 + 3 + 3 I think
01:13:04 <Sgeo> 3 consts, 3 that bottom on bottom but are const on Just x, and 3 that bottom on bottom, ... crud
01:13:21 <nooodl> there's at least 3^2 strict functions?
01:13:23 <Sgeo> ...crud is the new bottom
01:13:48 <nooodl> (instead of True/False you have Just ()/Nothing)
01:13:59 <Sgeo> I forgot that Nothing existed.
01:14:23 <Bike> shachaf you goddamned asshole
01:15:57 <Bike> so anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlawries_Bill what the fuck, england?
01:16:50 <shachaf> nooodl: some things don't exist..............
01:17:55 <nooodl> quintopia: are existent things dense in the set of things
01:18:38 <nooodl> oops wow xchat what the fuck is this
01:19:01 <nooodl> oh i had the dumbest option ever on
01:19:23 <mnoqy> was it on by default
01:19:33 <shachaf> mnoqy;;; do you have it on
01:20:00 <shachaf> mnoqy: but you used to????
01:20:02 <nooodl> i turned it one because i thought it'd uh
01:20:07 <mnoqy> ive never used xchat
01:20:20 <nooodl> you know in xchat when you want to tab-complete a name and there are multiple options
01:20:32 <shachaf> nooodl: did you read that one book by raymond smullyan (_5000 B.C._)
01:20:35 <nooodl> and instead of cycling through them it just displays them all, forcing you to type more of the name
01:21:08 <nooodl> anyway i thought this option could maybe solve that because its name was really vague
01:21:16 <nooodl> and i left it on without ever noticing anything
01:21:28 <nooodl> (i had googled it but it's undocumented like everything in fucking xchat)
01:21:40 <nooodl> what's it about / why'd you bring it up
01:21:48 <shachaf> well it talks about existent things
01:21:51 <shachaf> and also a bunch of other things
01:22:02 <nooodl> most books talk about existent things :-)
01:22:15 <nooodl> i guess science fiction doesn't !!!
01:22:19 <shachaf> hey he's publishing another book this year
01:22:23 <nooodl> let's look this thing up
01:22:25 <mnoqy> lessee... 4^2 strict functions not distinguishing Just bottom from bottom, add 3^2 for those that do, then youve got 3 nonstrict const's, and 1 for bottom
01:22:30 <mnoqy> hey shachaf did i do it right why did i do that uuugh
01:22:50 <shachaf> mnoqy: i don't know what do i look like a person who would do that..
01:24:40 <shachaf> lambdabot i summon you...............................
01:25:00 <mnoqy> 16+9+3+1 = 25+4 = 29
01:25:03 <kmc> `run echo $((2+2))
01:25:10 <shachaf> i'm casting my lambdabot summoning spell be patient!!
01:25:21 <kmc> lambdabot has summoning sickness :`(
01:25:40 <mnoqy> by lambdabot summoning spell do you mean uhh that thing where you "obtain" lambdabot admin status
01:26:15 <shachaf> i mean the thing where lambdabot is back up now thanks to Cale
01:26:20 <mnoqy> ok is it the one where lambdabot dies and then just takes forever to join channels
01:26:22 <shachaf> and then take credit for it
01:26:31 <mnoqy> why does it take forever, poor engineering?
01:26:47 <shachaf> well throttling "and stuff"
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01:26:54 <shachaf> lambdabot is in about a billion channels hth
01:27:07 <mnoqy> a billion is a lot
01:27:18 <shachaf> not as much as ten billion
01:27:34 -!- lambdabot has joined.
01:27:50 <lambdabot> mnoqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:27:50 <shachaf> a billion isn't cool. you know what's cool? a trillion hth
01:28:51 <mnoqy> unless it's wrong and i get hooked on it because im a horrible addicted to stupid things like this
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01:43:17 <kmc> lambda bot
01:43:53 -!- carado has joined.
01:44:50 <shachaf> time to summon lambdabot again
01:46:07 -!- lambdabot has joined.
01:46:29 <shachaf> shachaf++ # summoning lambdabot
01:52:16 <Sgeo> ) Im far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:17 <jconn> Sgeo: Im (far better than lambdabot anyway)
01:52:31 <Sgeo> ) far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:32 <jconn> Sgeo: far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:40 <Sgeo> ) im far better than lambdabot anyway
01:52:41 <jconn> Sgeo: im (far better than lambdabot anyway)
01:52:47 <jconn> Sgeo: a (b c d e f)
01:52:49 <Sgeo> ) a b c d e f g
01:52:50 <jconn> Sgeo: a b c d e f g
01:53:45 <Bike> so glad we had this chat.
01:57:25 <nooodl> that's because of how trains work
01:58:07 <nooodl> well, actually because of how they're displayed
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02:01:15 <nooodl> wow there's this exaple on the j wiki about converting a non-tacit expression to a tacit one using trains
02:01:46 <nooodl> then it makes some steps to arrive at this: (^@[) + ((([^2"_) - (]^2"_)))
02:01:59 <nooodl> and then below that there's this
02:02:02 <nooodl> In this case terser tacit expressions are possible: ^@[ + *:@[ - *:@] or, even better, ^@[ + -&*:
02:03:13 <Sgeo> Aren't tacit verbs more reversible than explicit?
02:03:37 <Jafet> @pl \x y -> exp x + x^2 + y^2
02:03:37 <lambdabot> (. (^ 2)) . (+) . liftM2 (+) exp (^ 2)
02:10:20 <nooodl> @ty (+) <$> exp . fst <*> uncurry ((+) `on` (^2))
02:10:36 <nooodl> it translates into this, pretty much
02:12:10 <kmc> Fiora: reading the GBC boot rom thing now o_O
02:14:30 <Bike> haha that thing was horrifying
02:14:48 <lambdabot> mnoqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:14:49 <kmc> i like that it involves a TOCTOU swaparoo on the logo data as well
02:14:55 <kmc> mnoqy: http://www.fpgb.org/?page_id=17
02:15:13 <kmc> time of check / time of use
02:15:29 <kmc> the FPGA ROM emulator reads out a Nintendo logo the first few times that area is accessed, and afterward reads out the dumper program
02:16:06 <kmc> I guess the boot ROM verifies the Nintendo logo so that any unauthorized cartridges have to be trademark infringing as well
02:16:50 <Bike> see? horrifying
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02:17:59 <Fiora> horrifying more like amazing and wonderful
02:23:55 <kmc> oh since people were talking about autism and portrayals of autism in media, i thought i would share this link http://ada-hoffmann.livejournal.com/39870.html which i came across somehow, which is a list of books with autistic characters and/or by autistic authors
02:24:03 <kmc> dunno if it's any good
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02:28:22 <Fiora> I'm not sure I'd really enjoy that kind of thing,... I guess, like, I don't really like those "parts" of myself, so I'd rather not read a character that focuses on those things... maybe? I don't know, it's hard to express
02:29:53 <Bike> maybe some of the authors have similar feelings and you could find something to relate to there?
02:30:13 <Fiora> maybe... I find sometimes I don't really relate that much to a lot of autistic people though, I'm not sure.
02:30:34 <Fiora> I guess a vaguely comparable example might be...
02:32:11 <Fiora> among LGBT-focused romance manga/doujins/etc, there's a category that are more realistic and down to earth, and deal with a lot of day to day discrimination, stereotypes, and so on
02:32:23 <Fiora> and then there's the sort that are more idealized, take place in fantasy worlds, and so on
02:32:35 * Sgeo has heard of The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time
02:32:40 * Sgeo wonders if he should read it
02:32:49 <Fiora> and sometimes you want to read a story about all the problems that people face. and sometimes you just want to read a story far, far away from those problems
02:33:54 <Fiora> and I guess, in the media I like, I don't really like to be reminded of pains that exist in reality but shouldn't exist
02:34:07 <Fiora> fantasy should be fantasy, it should be a place where there doesn't -have- to be sexism, or bigotry, or any of that
02:34:32 <Fiora> ... if that makes any sense
02:37:25 <kmc> anyway I thought I'd pass on the link just because it came up in discussion earlier
02:37:39 <kmc> i don't read enough fiction anymore to have opinions on whether I want to read about people like myself or different
02:37:54 <Fiora> yeah, no problem ^^
02:38:02 <Fiora> I don't want to chastise you for posting them -_-
02:40:38 <Fiora> also I'm probably disillusioned by typical media portrayals so
02:46:59 <coppro> I like characters like me
02:47:43 <Bike> books about people who sit around reading are pretty boring imo, so fuck books about meoids
02:48:40 <Fiora> I like characters that are close enough to me to connect with, but are thrust into interest circumstances or in interesting worlds full of wonderful people, so they do more than sit around inside all day <.<
02:51:42 <Sgeo> Huh. SGML had a predecessor.
02:52:31 <mnoqy> well what else would it standard-generalize
02:52:57 <Sgeo> Its precedessor was already Generalized
02:53:57 <Bike> standard specialized markup language
02:54:21 <mnoqy> ibm gml looks.....cute......
02:55:57 <Sgeo> ...IE is directly descended from Mosaic?
03:05:19 <Sgeo> [About XMLHttpRequest] "This trivial mechanism was meant to be of little significance, merely an attempt to scratch an itch in the web-based version of Microsoft Outlook."
03:20:48 <Sgeo> I suggested to my dad that online banking via app on phone may be more secure than via web, because of various web-specific issues that wouldn't occur in an app, but not sure if that's reasonable
03:21:53 <Jafet> Then you find out it's the bank server that's insecure
03:25:38 * Sgeo wtfs at firefoxurl:
03:26:23 <kmc> Sgeo: you got your copy of Tangled Web?
03:26:44 <Sgeo> kmc, yeah, have been reading it
03:32:28 <Sgeo> How many pages is the physical copy? Nook says it has 1382 pages but I saw someone else say something like 300
03:32:59 <Bike> if nook is like my shitty phone ebook reader it has smaller pages
03:33:52 <Sgeo> Fun fact: Nook pages don't correspond to page turns
03:36:00 <kmc> yeah the physical copy is definitely not that many
03:36:08 <kmc> 300 sounds right
03:36:15 <Bike> a 1300 page book about the web sounds terrifying
03:41:07 <Sgeo> http:example.com/
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03:44:50 <Fiora> geez the white dwarf/black hole gamma ray burst paper is really cool. it's amazing how like, tidal stretching of a white dwarf can steal energy from its orbit, letting it be orbitally captured
03:51:19 <Sgeo> http://www。example。com
03:52:37 <Bike> IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP?
03:53:11 <Sgeo> Book said that most modern browsers treat them identically to . in the hostname of the URL but not elsewhere in the URL
03:53:34 <Fiora> that... that's... that's really weird
03:54:34 <Sgeo> Something to do with being easier to type on the Chinese keyboard
03:56:38 <Sgeo> "In IDNA-aware (IDNA2003) applications, the "dot" character we see in domain names like www.example.com has several equals. Specifically the following characters are all equivalent under IDNA rules:"
03:56:47 <Sgeo> Thought it was just an arbitrary thing
03:59:41 <Sgeo> http:\\example.com (won't work with Firefox probably)
04:00:02 <Fiora> it seems to work in chrome?
04:00:13 <Jafet> http:\\\\example\.com
04:00:47 <Sgeo> Jafet, that one did not work for me in Chrome
04:01:07 <Sgeo> Fiora, Chrome != Firefox
04:01:10 <Bike> Isn't this part of the URI RFC, not the web standards...?
04:02:59 <Bike> that's quite a character
04:03:31 <Fiora> sorry, I was just trying in another browser...
04:04:02 <Jafet> ⋚ LESS-THAN EQUAL TO OR GREATER-THAN
04:04:09 <Jafet> For when you just don't know
04:04:36 <Bike> i guess it says that you have an ordering on the objects?
04:07:26 <Bike> except we need a pile of symbols for it ofc
04:07:42 <Sgeo> http://example.com\@google.com/
04:08:42 <Sgeo> kmc, book seems to be out of date. It said that that would take me to example.com in browsers other than Firefox. In Chrome, I landed in Google
04:08:57 <Bike> That got me to example.com in my chrome.
04:09:19 <Sgeo> I think KDE tried interpreting it before sending it to Chrome
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04:20:15 <kmc> talking about a building in london "that's the gherkin" "no, what's it really called" "it's really called the gherkin"
04:20:20 <kmc> pls confirm / deny, british ppl
04:20:31 <kmc> i mean i think it has another name but
04:20:34 <kmc> that's what people call it
04:24:20 <mnoqy> 30 St Mary Axe (informally also known as "the Gherkin" and previously the Swiss Re Building)
04:28:24 <Sgeo> I think zzo38 would not like this book
04:28:54 <Sgeo> "... built-in support for the gopher: scheme, one of the failed predecessors of the Web..."
04:29:09 <Fiora> http://gamasutra.com/view/news/190865/Peter_Molyneux_may_have_just_monetized_trolling.php molyneux
04:30:57 <mnoqy> curiosity is amazing in that i guess people actually play it?
04:31:03 <mnoqy> and pay money on it?
04:31:10 <mnoqy> i dont understand anything
04:31:41 <Fiora> literally. adding a feature. to pay. to /reverse other peoples' progress/
04:35:55 <kmc> St Andrew Undershaft
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04:54:11 <Fiora> kmc: also did you get to the snes coprocessor reverse engineering thing
04:54:19 <Fiora> um, since you read the gbc rom thing
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08:20:40 <Taneb> kmc, the crypto chaps have emailed me back
08:23:38 <pikhq_> Random spurts of insomnia are fun.
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10:10:23 <shachaf> Taneb: You should change xchat to use "nick: message" rather than "nick, message"
10:10:50 <Taneb> shachaf, a) why and b) I don't know how
10:11:15 <Taneb> (b is now incorrect)
10:11:16 <shachaf> a) because : is better and b) it's in the preferences somewhere
10:23:20 <Jafet> shachaf: shachaf: shachaf: shachaf: shachaf: []
10:24:52 <Taneb> shachaf: is this better
10:26:47 <ais523> I actually got shouted at for using colons on a different IRC-like system
10:26:56 <ais523> but that's because the default client uses colons to say who said a message
10:27:02 <ais523> e.g. ais523: not <ais523>
10:27:08 <ais523> so talking to someone with colons looks like you're quoting them
10:27:44 <shachaf> ais523: Different systems are different.
10:29:02 <Zerker> ais523: but that's because the default client uses colons to say who said a message | woe be to us with nonstandard IRC clients
10:29:17 <ais523> Zerker: you quote with |?
10:29:43 <Zerker> When on a single line, yes
10:30:03 <Zerker> stuff here | separate stuff here
10:30:12 <AnotherTest> Zerker: is the analogy with pipe-lining a coincidence?
10:31:19 <Zerker> Not completely intentional, but it does somewhat fit the idea of "appending to this in the history, "
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10:39:08 <fizzie> I used to use a ; -- it's a nice compromise, neither "the commists" nor "the coloners" like it.
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11:28:17 <mroman_> forkIO $ C.evaluate (length output) >> putMVar outMVar ()
11:34:30 <Taneb> I'm trying to follow today's irregular webcomic, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the practical in the first paragraph
11:34:35 <Taneb> I think I'm too clumsy
11:34:44 <Taneb> Can I skip it without getting too confused?
11:36:06 <shachaf> I have skipped every single irregular webcomic.
11:36:20 <shachaf> I am confused, but not about irregular-webcomic-related matters.
11:37:19 <shachaf> Why are you back to commas?
11:37:32 <Taneb> maybe I typed it out manually to annoy you
11:42:23 <mroman_> Does anybody of you guys know make?
11:42:36 <mroman_> Can I specify a list OBJECTS = foo.o foo2.o
11:42:38 <Jafet> make is a cool guy.
11:43:04 <olsner> make doesn't have lists, the only data type is the string
11:43:04 <mroman_> and have a traget which uses that variable do compile the *.c files?
11:43:27 <pikhq_> mroman_: Here's the easy way:
11:43:41 <pikhq_> That's... the whole thing.
11:49:19 <mroman_> I'm pretty sure I need dollars.
11:49:32 <fizzie> prog: $(OBJECTS), if you like.
11:49:44 <fizzie> You can make an explicit pattern-rule like $(OBJECTS): %.o: %.c with whatever commands you like, if you don't like the defaults.
11:50:33 <fizzie> (Done like that, it'll only apply to the objects in $(OBJECTS).)
11:50:49 <mroman_> Currently I have $(OBJECTS) = foo.o foo2.o foo3.o ...
11:50:57 <mroman_> and FOR EVERY foo I have a
11:51:20 <mroman_> And I gets annoying to do that for every foo
11:51:25 <pikhq_> That's very unnecessary.
11:51:28 <fizzie> Well, you can replace that with $(OBJECTS): %.o: %.c\n\t$(CC) ... yes.
11:51:38 <fizzie> But if it uses $(CC) it's probably just as well if you use the default rule.
11:51:46 <fizzie> For making anything.o out of anything.c.
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11:54:13 <mroman_> fizzie: And in what variable is the name of the file?
11:54:36 <fizzie> $@ is the output, and $< is the first prereq. But why *are* you writing it manually?
11:54:48 <fizzie> The default %.o: %.c rule in my make is $(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(CPPFLAGS) $(TARGET_ARCH) -c -o $@ $< -- that ought to be enough for anyone.
11:58:40 <mroman_> fizzie: Because it's easier @manually
11:58:46 <mroman_> easier than using autoconf and shit.
11:58:55 <fizzie> You don't need to use any "shit".
11:59:15 <fizzie> Make itself has that default %.o: %.c rule in place.
12:00:21 <fizzie> You can just write prog: foo.o bar.o as the entire contents of your Makefile, and it'll use the default rules to make foo.o and bar.o from foo.c and bar.c, then link them together.
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12:39:41 <Taneb> The real question is, what am I going to do with 60 freddo bars
13:04:54 <Taneb> Chocolate bars in the shape of frogs
13:19:38 <Taneb> Well, I suck at vectors
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13:33:11 <Taneb> Vectors? they're pretty expensive
13:35:51 <Taneb> (the mathsy ones. not mosquitoes)
13:36:03 <Taneb> (although I suck at mosquitoes too)
13:36:09 <Taneb> (or do they suck at me?
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13:42:28 <Taneb> I'm trying to work out what (x-1)/5=(y-6)/6=(z+3/-7 is trying to tell me
13:46:15 <Taneb> The question is which line
13:47:09 <Phantom_Hoover> the one that contains (1,6,-3) and has direction (5,6,-7) i guess
13:47:37 <Taneb> Thank you, mysterious scottish gentleman
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14:09:30 * Sgeo 's facebook status:
14:09:31 <Sgeo> 'If you ever want to read a terrifying horror novel, you can't go wrong with a book on the design of the web and web security.'
14:10:17 <Taneb> Sgeo: I've got a book from 2002 or 2003 about how web standards are awesome and XHTML 2 is gonna be great
14:14:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
14:24:01 <Sgeo> Can I simply... buy episodes of Doctor Who somewhere?
14:24:07 <Sgeo> Rather than pirating, I mean
14:24:15 <Sgeo> But ideally just as convenient now that I have money
14:24:19 <Sgeo> (Or preferably more convenient)
14:24:36 <Taneb> http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=doctor+who
14:24:58 <Sgeo> Didn't mean DVDs
14:25:01 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
14:26:08 <Sgeo> Found the ep I want
14:28:39 <Sgeo> (I missed last night's ep on the TV)
14:37:07 <Sgeo> "The Flash Player Plugin in Chrome removed support for Digital Rights Management (DRM) in Linux as part of the upgrade from 11.3 to 11.4. This upgrade was bundled with the latest Chrome 22 update for Linux. If you applied the Chrome update, you are no longer able to watch DRM-protected content, such as movies and TV episodes. Trailers are unaffected as they do not use DRM. To get around this issue, you can use a different browser, such as Fir
14:37:07 <Sgeo> efox. For information on Chrome and the Flash Player plug-in, see:"
14:38:49 <Sgeo> (Or just disabling the Chrome builtin flash player works)
14:39:05 <kmc> i had problems with DRM'd content on Hulu ("error code 2203") and fixed it by apt-get install hal libhal1
14:39:48 <Sgeo> Sorry, the term 'hal' is a swear term to me
14:44:04 <kmc> i'm sorry, i can't do that dave
14:44:16 <kmc> > map succ "HAL"
14:46:48 <Sgeo> There's a format thing called hal
14:47:00 <Sgeo> And the library we're using to emit it majorly sucks
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14:52:32 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I have the excuse that it was cheap
14:52:50 <Taneb> If anything, I've got some really bargain kindling
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14:53:49 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I do if kmc recommends the book
14:54:04 <Sgeo> Also now that I have money that I can just... use, I'm far more willing to buy stuff
14:54:40 <Sgeo> I also bought the latest ep. of Doctor Who, although I could have pirated it
14:54:47 <Sgeo> Need to go watch it now
14:55:04 <Phantom_Hoover> so given the choice between two stupid things you did the stupider of the two
14:55:48 <Sgeo> I did the more ethical of the two. Which also has benefits of not needing to deal with shitloads of popups
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14:58:26 <AnotherTest> Why does Phantom_Hoover keep implying that kmc makes a lot of money by advertising various things in here?
14:58:59 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: Do you have proof for this?
15:01:05 <AnotherTest> so, what makes you think that he makes a lot of money?
15:02:46 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: Well you said "because it's true" after I said that you said/implied that kmc makes a lot of money through advertisements... so...
15:04:06 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: Bible camp's cancelled. | I am making the world better by TRANSFORMING THE TIME CUBES into TIME TESSERACTS | Underhanded C Contest: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | httpI ://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
15:04:45 <Taneb> Didn't the time cube guy die of cancer or something
15:06:36 <Sgeo> "Ignorance is... what's the opposite of bliss?"
15:08:07 <elliott> giving money to moffat is not ethical!
15:08:11 <ThatOtherPerson> AnotherTest: you won't understand it even if you read about it
15:08:23 <Taneb> AnotherTest: some guy went insane
15:09:01 <Taneb> He offered a $10000 prize if anyone could prove him wrong
15:11:19 <ThatOtherPerson> Nobody can prove it wrong because nobody can understand it
15:12:02 <AnotherTest> well maybe the guy who made it up doesn't understand it either?
15:12:51 <ThatOtherPerson> If Taneb is right and he is crazy, it probably makes perfect sense to him.
15:12:55 <ThatOtherPerson> Did I mention that http://www.timecube.com is blocked in Saudi Arabia?
15:14:26 <AnotherTest> Saudi Arabia doesn't want their citizens to get trolled?
15:15:30 <AnotherTest> s/citizens/inhabitants unless you can use citizens for a country
15:18:09 <elliott> pretty sure kmc knows about time cube
15:19:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Phantom_motnahP.
15:19:58 -!- Phantom_motnahP has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:22:00 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
15:36:03 <elliott> it seems to be worth a billion dollars again
15:37:26 <AnotherTest> bitcoin is like a self-re-inflating-bubble elliott
15:37:52 <AnotherTest> My guess is that it will continue like this for quite a while
15:40:38 <AnotherTest> but I'm not an economist so don't take seriously what I'm saying
15:45:15 <Sgeo> elliott, Aftran likes Moffat
15:50:28 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
15:53:38 -!- kyyni has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:56:45 <Sgeo> Also, buying on Amazon gives me closed captioning
15:59:09 <FireFly> Linguistics is dangerous business
15:59:17 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
15:59:27 <HackEgo> 423) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
15:59:39 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 5) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them. \ 38) <Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly \ 65) <Warrigal> Invalid! Kill! Kill! <Aftran> I get that feeling too. \ 116) <fungot> ais523: killer bunnies can be
16:00:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17050
16:01:48 <HackEgo> 1007) <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler <kmc> oh yeah, there we go <kmc> thanks Fiora <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
16:02:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24815
16:03:27 <FireFly> fungot: I hear killer bunnies are tricky to get rid of
16:03:28 <fungot> FireFly: hrm... i should've noted better... ' par' there is multiplied by phi in a convergent manner. for example,
16:03:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
16:04:16 <FireFly> I don't think I remember fungot's prefix
16:04:16 <fungot> FireFly: it's pretty amusing that you use the y combinator.
16:04:30 <FireFly> fungot: well how else am I supposed to recurse?
16:04:31 <fungot> FireFly: i'm going to implement a new arithemetic operation for my compiler
16:04:37 <HackEgo> 1020) <itidus21> :D :D oh man.. i wonder if they ever made chess variants based off of animes
16:04:39 <FireFly> fungot: sounds like a plan!
16:04:40 <fungot> FireFly: and both accounts are serialized, as a student
16:04:53 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen itidus21 ever
16:06:15 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
16:06:42 <fizzie> fungot: What's up, Cloud?
16:06:42 <fungot> fizzie: i knew this day and they're really going to go on the other girl is...
16:06:59 <fungot> FireFly: so barret caught him and sephiroth. we'll give it a try. little by little, okay? hmmm? are the shinra's doing. we was close ever since then, what are you doing, profes......
16:07:31 <Jafet> Does fungot's script literally include ......
16:07:31 <fungot> Jafet: professor gast. i never count my chickens before they attack in full force! losing... control... i'd get into trouble.)
16:08:22 <fizzie> Jafet: output.txt:What are you doing, Profes...... I mean, honey?
16:08:32 <fizzie> output.txt:I was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo...
16:09:04 <fizzie> There are a lot of dots in it.
16:09:08 <Jafet> I don't remember the script being that saucy, either
16:09:28 <Jafet> Now fungot will tell us all about him and sephiroth
16:09:29 <fungot> Jafet: ( why you... right?
16:09:30 <FireFly> fungot: do you feel dotty?
16:09:30 <fungot> FireFly: gggggggh....? my long sleep has given me time to argue with you. can we handle it?
16:09:53 <FireFly> fungot: I doubt *you* could handle that
16:09:54 <fungot> FireFly: don't tell barret what i need a group leader for our next promotion! you messing with the mako energy...
16:11:37 <fizzie> fungot: Don't be messing with no mako energy.
16:11:37 <fungot> fizzie: you only get ' em.
16:11:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7* fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:11:54 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
16:12:03 <FireFly> fungot: d'you think this was a bad idea?
16:12:03 <fungot> FireFly: from: mr i think that
16:15:37 <olsner> fungot: don't you just love all the botspam?
16:15:37 <fungot> olsner: the irony of this is unfair and insulting. you just had to spend a month ( if they patented that idea? ( y)
16:16:37 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: list, though i believe the proper way to kill other existing languages, and wouldn't accept the entire internet!
16:17:35 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:20:10 <mroman_> That's a lot of spam accounts created :)
16:32:59 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
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16:36:12 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her.
16:37:43 <tswett> I dunno, I don't care for that one. Let's delete it.
16:39:37 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
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16:57:27 <Taneb> elliott: you'll be interested to know that in the #esoteric Dwarf Fortress, we actually have a big black cock
16:58:50 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: yes
16:59:55 <elliott> is the first year over yet
17:00:07 <Taneb> Nah, my computer is playing up
17:00:10 <Taneb> It's late winter, though
17:29:39 -!- Bike has joined.
17:33:49 * Sgeo wonders how video ads are secured
17:34:06 <Sgeo> Maybe the real video can't be streamed until x seconds after ad sent?
17:35:34 <Bike> https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/323541419023290369
17:38:58 <elliott> hey Bike. read all these papers for me.
17:39:56 <Fiora> Bike: libertarians are the best parodies of libertarians
17:41:17 <Bike> Fiora: i had to look it up because i had a hard time believing they'd be that nuts but welp.
17:42:58 <elliott> The path “structure” is actually best left unbundled, with each component being
17:43:02 <elliott> passed as a separate argument to definitions and theorems, as there is no one-to-
17:43:05 <elliott> one relation between any of the components (there can be multiple paths with the
17:43:08 <elliott> same starting point and relation, and conversely a given sequence can be a path
17:43:11 <elliott> for different relations). Because it depends on all the other components, only the
17:43:14 <elliott> axiom pP needs to be passed around explicitly; type inference can figure out T ,
17:43:17 <elliott> e, x0 and p from the type of pP , so that in practice the entire path “structure”
17:43:20 <elliott> can be assimilated to pP .
17:43:22 <elliott> man i'm not so sure this is a good idea you guys
17:43:25 <elliott> oh that was a lot of lines.
17:43:38 <Bike> is this homotopy type theory shit
17:43:53 <elliott> i don't try understanding HoTT stuff
17:47:11 <elliott> While this unbundling allows for maximal flexibility, it also induces a prolif-
17:47:14 <elliott> eration of arguments that is rapidly overwhelming.
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17:47:16 <elliott> yes thank you that is what i was thinking.
17:50:24 <Taneb> I just almost killed my computer taking the let a x = (x,x); etc thing one level too far
17:51:17 <Bike> a billion laughs
17:54:27 <elliott> hm maybe coq modules are good for this sort of stuff.
17:56:17 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:02:43 <kmc> perhaps coq modules will fix your makefile
18:04:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
18:04:42 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
18:12:24 <Jafet> > let f = join (,) in f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f x
18:12:45 <Jafet> > let f = join (,) in f$f$f$f$f$f$f$f x
18:12:46 <lambdabot> ((((((((x,x),(x,x)),((x,x),(x,x))),(((x,x),(x,x)),((x,x),(x,x)))),((((x,x),...
18:14:42 <elliott> wow this paper does such weird things.
18:17:29 <Jafet> @google workshop on the homotopy theory of homotopy theories
18:19:16 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9 great language there
18:21:51 <elliott> bad languages are created all the time
18:22:20 <elliott> the best thing you can do is make good new languages
18:23:52 <AnotherTest> elliott: the languages are not worse than usual, it's the articles I think
18:24:20 <AnotherTest> People create articles before they even have a language (regardless of how good the language is)
18:24:54 <elliott> well http://esolangs.org/wiki/Revolution_9 specifies the language completely, it doesn't take many bits to convey all the information a brainfuck equivalent has and the reference is clear
18:25:06 <elliott> still I've seen other articles with less detail than both
18:25:20 <elliott> like ones that just say "Blah is a language." and have no other info than a dead link
18:26:22 <AnotherTest> elliott: I'm not entirely convinced what "It's alright" means
18:27:27 <elliott> it's what you substitute the brainfuck commands with...
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18:28:07 <Jafet> I can actually see myself using or implementing it, compared to say MEBFFYBFF
18:28:19 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
18:28:21 <Jafet> And it's not trivial like HQ9
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18:28:56 <elliott> well if you understand its novelty (i.e. have heard revolution 9) and are used to brainfuck derivatives then I think it's pretty clear :P
18:29:41 <AnotherTest> elliott: I have heard about both, unfortunately
18:29:44 <kmc> it is a fine... joke language
18:30:08 <kmc> itt we are Don Draper listening to Tomorrow Never Knows and we do not approve
18:30:18 <Bike> i actually like revolution 9 the song. sorry not sory
18:30:26 <ThatOtherPerson> Now I can create a page about my new "language" created by substituting random characters for the bf commands!
18:30:49 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: I don't think the creator had an account
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18:30:58 <Sgeo> Why does NetFlix only have 6 season of new Doctor Who?
18:31:21 <olsner> Sgeo: they want to drive you to piracy
18:31:25 <AnotherTest> More like "I found out about this wiki where you can create your own language by replacing a bunch of languages"
18:32:05 <elliott> revolution 9 is p good imo
18:32:07 <Sgeo> Also, NetFlix doesn't support Linux
18:32:09 <Sgeo> aljksdhfklajhsdfljkadhfklajsdfhkasjdfh
18:32:10 <Sgeo> a;ouwehfiauehfuihfiuaefhawef
18:32:39 <AnotherTest> Sgeo: what does that program do in your language?
18:33:23 <olsner> makes season 7 of doctor who available on netflix?
18:33:27 <Sgeo> It flips out and maims whoever came up with the idea of DRm
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18:35:25 <pikhq_> Hmm. 加引右左初終入出 <- That looks to me like a perfectly reasonable Brainfuck derivative.
18:35:52 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:35:56 <Jafet> @google chinese BASIC
18:35:57 <lambdabot> http://www.1jn.com/chinese/conversation.html
18:35:58 <lambdabot> Title: Mandarin Chinese Basic Conversation
18:36:03 <Jafet> @google chinese BASIC programming
18:36:03 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_BASIC
18:36:04 <lambdabot> Title: Chinese BASIC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:37:11 <pikhq_> I'm a little impressed they were able to get the IME logic on an Apple II.
18:37:17 -!- GOMADWarrior has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:37:38 <AnotherTest> what about <>+-.,[] instead of ][,.-+<> just for fun
18:37:45 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
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18:38:48 <fizzie> Apple ][, the computer that has unbalanced brackets.
18:39:19 <Jafet> The computer [Apple ][] under discussion
18:48:05 <pikhq_> Input Method Editor. Program used for inputting languages with nontrivial input requirements, like Chinese.
18:49:15 <AnotherTest> someone please create GBE (Generic Brainfuck Equivalent)
18:50:04 <AnotherTest> No just a way to stop people from making more brainfuck equivalents
18:51:20 <tromp_> is it equivalent if it works on bits instead of bytes?
18:51:54 <Phantom_Hoover> my stance continues to be that we should just replace all the bf substitutions on the wiki with a big table of what they rename everything to
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18:56:34 <Fiora> maybe someone could make a language that generates bf derivatives?
18:57:17 <Sgeo> I made a language that is interesting to implement BF derivatives in, if that helps
18:59:41 <ThatOtherPerson> how about a bf derivative where the commands are replaced by the nicks of the eight people who have been most active in this channel in the last two weeks?
18:59:53 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:07:10 <elliott> Fiora: it should have functionality for automatically posting them on the wiki
19:07:36 <kmc> ##crypto is pretty good
19:07:59 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: i already proposed a BF derivative based on complaints in #esoteric about BF derivatives
19:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i came up with a bf derivative based on xkcd references
19:15:38 <FireFly> A BF derivative generator that updates based on the date would be a nice addition to the wiki
19:15:57 <FireFly> "today's daily BF derivative is..."
19:16:31 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: here at mit-ai, so i trundle off to a system mailbox may be related) that mail for thyrsus.com should be
19:18:52 <Taneb> Okay, who wants the fortress
19:19:03 <Taneb> elliott: Phantom_Hoover: monqy(?)
19:19:27 <kmc> yeah channel about cryptography
19:19:31 <kmc> which i joined the other day
19:19:37 <nooodl> i wanna look at the fortress
19:20:01 <nooodl> imo someone stream dwarf fortress, or take some screenshots
19:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i do not foresee this being an easy process and i have a pile of other things i should be doing but am not
19:21:57 <Taneb> nooodl: I did for a bit
19:22:21 <AnotherTest> kmc: are you sure you are not secretly being paid for sharing this :p?
19:28:53 <Taneb> So, who wants this fortress
19:30:30 <kmc> yes the IRC channel ##crypto has mad bankroll and is desperate for new people to join and is paying me to shill in other channels
19:32:22 <kmc> they've implemented a SHA256 preimage attack and are minting mad coin
19:33:56 <Fiora> wouldn't they need to break ECDSA too?
19:34:09 <Taneb> Screw this, I'm emailing this thing to elliott
19:34:59 <kmc> Fiora: not if the goal is just to mine super quickly
19:35:03 <kmc> if you want to steal other people's money then yes
19:35:06 <Fiora> ohhhhh for mining, not breaking the protocol
19:35:24 <AnotherTest> well if you could mine really fast you'd essentially break bitcoin
19:35:26 <copumpkin> man, can't get away from the bitcoin talk
19:35:34 <Fiora> we'd know if that happened though, right? since who mines what is publicly tracked
19:35:42 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: wait it's a digital file right, can't it be copied and shared among a multitude of people?
19:35:46 <AnotherTest> hey, what if I used my local supercomputer
19:36:02 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: it hasn't compressed very well
19:36:11 <Fiora> (since like right now it's mostly mining pools and stuff)
19:36:20 <copumpkin> Fiora: you get a bitcoin address that receives the mining incentive on each block
19:36:36 <Fiora> yeah, but like, most of the mining goes through pools... though I guess they could sign up for pool accounts, too
19:36:36 <ThatOtherPerson> What happens to bitcoin when rather effective quantum computers are invented?
19:36:54 <Fiora> is there a quantum break in ECDSA?
19:37:04 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: then all bitcoins have been mined
19:37:23 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography#Quantum_computing_attacks ... ooh. it looks like there is
19:37:32 <kmc> SO HOW ABOUT THEM BITCOINS
19:37:45 <Fiora> kmc: so like, if someone broke ECDSA but not SHA256, could they forge transactions?
19:38:06 <Taneb> What if someone buys an old salt mine and fills it with supercomputers and actually turns it into a bitcoin mine
19:38:21 <Taneb> elliott: what's your favourite compression format
19:38:56 <elliott> Taneb: um i guess xz is fine
19:39:05 <Taneb> TOUGH YOU ARE GETTING GZ
19:39:38 <kmc> Fiora: yeah I think so
19:40:06 <Taneb> elliott: check your inbox
19:40:33 <Fiora> kmc: now you have to start a thing about how bitcoins will die when quantum computers come out
19:40:45 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "_@"
19:40:57 <Taneb> Fiora: play dwarf fortress
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19:41:05 <Fiora> I have like no idea how to play dwarf fortress at all
19:41:15 <Fiora> I was maybe going to play some star ocean
19:41:29 <Bike> beards everywhere
19:41:30 <Taneb> Best thing about dwarf fortress is how easy and intuitive it is
19:41:42 <Bike> exotic life tailored to swim through facial hahir
19:41:53 <elliott> the key to dwarf fortress is realising taht nobody has any idea how to play it
19:42:07 <Taneb> If you want to make a steel sword, you combine steel and coal in a metalsmith's workshop
19:42:41 <Taneb> You get steel by combining iron, some form of flux stone (eg, chalk or marble), and coal in a forge
19:43:10 <Bike> so far this is minecraft
19:43:14 <Taneb> You get iron by combining some form of iron ore (eg, haematite) with coal in a forge
19:43:20 <Vorpal> Apart from the flux stone
19:43:52 <Taneb> You get coal either by combining either lignite or bituminous coal with coal in a forge
19:43:54 <Vorpal> Bike, are you saying DF plays like MC? Very different games.
19:44:04 <Taneb> Or by manipulating wood in a ashmaker's workshop
19:44:11 <Taneb> By the way, you actually do none of this
19:44:20 <Taneb> You have a bunch of dwarfs to do it for you!
19:45:21 <Vorpal> DF is kind of unique. There are elements from a lot of different types of games in it. I can't think of good game to compare it with.
19:45:33 <Taneb> Also, it scorns the confusion of modern graphics and uses a replica of Code page 437 by default
19:45:39 <Vorpal> Maybe The Sims, what with everyone getting angry and so on.
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like minecraft except all you can do is suggest things to a bunch of hairy alcoholics who would much rather kill each other with a silk dress than do what you say
19:45:54 <Fiora> I heard it had something about cats
19:46:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so a mix of The Sims and minecraft then?
19:46:16 <Taneb> Fiora: dwarfs looooooove cats
19:46:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, except a lot more fun than SIms
19:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> also they harbour framerate-destroying cats from your butcher
19:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover> (not as bad these days because you can stick all the cats in a little room and fill it with lava)
19:46:56 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: the dwarfs can make ice bridges over lava rivers
19:47:10 <Fiora> this doesn't sound like a fun game
19:47:49 <Taneb> Fiora: it mentions fun in its motto!
19:47:49 <Vorpal> Completely off topic: Why is Forgotten Realms such a popular setting for video games? IMO Planescape for example is far more interesting.
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19:48:04 <Taneb> Just like North Korea has an electric pylon in its coat of arms
19:48:06 <Vorpal> (for D&D video games that is)
19:48:22 <Taneb> Vorpal: maybe it's more iconic
19:48:34 <Taneb> elliott: can you confirm receipt
19:48:59 <Vorpal> Taneb, Hm, but what about Greyhawk then? That was the first published setting wasn't it?
19:49:14 <Taneb> Vorpal: I have no idea, I don't play D&D that much
19:51:05 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:51:15 -!- Bike has joined.
19:51:55 <ThatOtherPerson> I just realize I've spent most of my life visualizing the Land of Oz backwards
19:52:40 <Taneb> Arriving in the emerald city and ending up in munchkinland?
19:53:04 <ThatOtherPerson> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Map-of-Oz.jpg <-- I've always thought of Muchkin country being on the right and Winkie counry being on the left
19:55:08 -!- carado_ has joined.
19:56:26 <Taneb> I had no idea that was a thing people cared about
19:56:45 <fizzie> I had no idea people were spending appreciable amounts of time visualizing that.
19:56:58 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm not sure if they care about that; the picture just came as a shock to me
19:57:34 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, doesn't that depend on how you rotate the map?
19:57:56 <Vorpal> I never even thought about it before
19:58:36 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: well I obviously knew that Quadling Country was in the south and Gillikan Country was in the north
19:59:27 <Vorpal> I watched the movie once many years ago, when I was a child, and I thought "eh, it was okay"
20:01:00 <fizzie> I watched the new prequel (of sorts) the other month.
20:01:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? They made a new movie?
20:01:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oz_the_Great_and_Powerful
20:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> we really need to get Vorpal and FreeFull into a conversation someday and see which of them gets bored first
20:01:21 <Vorpal> The one I watched was a live action thing.
20:01:27 <ThatOtherPerson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms <-- I clicked "personal campaign"
20:01:41 <ThatOtherPerson> which led to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_universe
20:01:52 <fizzie> I mean, I'm sure there's more than this 2013 one and "the movie", too.
20:01:59 <Vorpal> Well that was a useless link
20:03:42 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, "personal campaign", it links to "fictional universe"
20:03:53 <Vorpal> Which is far more general
20:06:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/OTdV well that's quite a few.
20:06:38 <Vorpal> Hm, how is it useful? The definition of a "personal campaign" in this context would be "a role playing setting that is not published, instead being created by a person for a group of friends". The linked page doesn't talk about that as far as I can find.
20:06:50 <olsner> hmm, is that the canonical map of the fictional universe?
20:07:01 -!- mroman_ has left.
20:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> personal campaign obviously means the campaign a group run inside an established setting
20:07:27 <Taneb> Shouldn't Wicked be in that list?
20:08:40 <fizzie> Taneb: If you mean Wicked (musical), it's in a separate category of "The Wicked
20:09:13 <fizzie> There's also a "Reimagining" category, containing e.g. Zardoz, of all things.
20:09:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, In this context it was Forgotten Realms before it has become an established setting. So not exactly no.
20:10:51 <fizzie> "The Exterminators worship the god Zardoz, a huge, flying, hollow stone head. Zardoz teaches: The gun is good. The penis is evil. The penis shoots seeds, and makes new life to poison the Earth with a plague of men, as once it was, but the gun shoots death, and purifies the Earth of the filth of brutals. Go forth ... and kill!"
20:10:56 <fizzie> It's certainly... a reimagining.
20:13:34 <fizzie> Sean Connery is in it.
20:14:46 <Phantom_Hoover> http://uashome.alaska.edu/~dfgriffin/website/zardoz.gif more of sean connery than anyone ever wanted
20:14:47 <fizzie> http://nerdsontherocks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1974-zardoz-002-sean-connery.jpg there, see?
20:15:16 <fizzie> It has more saturation in it.
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20:30:59 <Vorpal> Oh yay, I just looked at HTML short tags again. Such a wonderful piece of history.
20:32:08 <Taneb> Vorpal: should I go to Manchester MCM
20:32:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, what on earth is that
20:32:38 <Taneb> It's a comic convention
20:32:59 <Vorpal> I have no opinion on the matter.
20:33:52 <Vorpal> http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/dev/tests/shorttags2.html <-- Wow, lynx actually handles that
20:34:22 <Vorpal> I can't find anything else that does.
20:36:32 <fizzie> You weren't reading the SGML spec, perhaps.
20:36:43 <Bike> is there some polite way to tell a programmer i don't care about syntax or naming conventions, at least not enough to listen to talk about it for an hour
20:37:08 <fizzie> There seems to be a link to the spec mentioning the SGML construct, though.
20:37:27 <Gregor> Even if you remove "polite", still "nope".
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20:37:41 <Fiora> Bike: maybe figure out a way to make that x87 guy stop talking about floating point rounding? XD
20:37:49 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, it is an incredibly obscure feature of HTML 4 and older.
20:37:59 <Bike> Fiora: impossible
20:38:08 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, Only lynx supports it that I know of
20:38:12 <fizzie> Well, that's no longer SGML-based.
20:38:12 <pikhq_> HTML 5 isn't SGML-based.
20:38:20 <pikhq_> Vorpal: links and friends also support it.
20:38:56 <pikhq_> But yeah. Pre-5, HTML was nominally SGML-based. But nobody actually parsed it that way.
20:39:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm I tried w3m it didn't
20:39:02 <fizzie> w3m doesn't seem to, a shame.
20:39:08 <Vorpal> guess I'll install links2
20:39:10 <Taneb> fizzie: validator.w3.org passes it
20:39:23 <Vorpal> Taneb, with a warning yes
20:39:31 <fizzie> Taneb: Given that it's their own page, you'd hope so.,
20:39:48 <Vorpal> pikhq_, nope links2 does not handle it
20:39:56 <Vorpal> pikhq_, it made the entire line a link
20:39:59 <Taneb> fizzie: apparently back in 2002 the W3C website sucked
20:40:27 <fizzie> w3m the browser doesn't have anything special to do with w3c, though.
20:40:59 <Vorpal> hey didn't w3c make a browser at one point? Started with A or something
20:41:10 <fizzie> elinks makes a link with the text "this text should be in a link</> while this text should not" in it.
20:41:16 <Sgeo> I didn't even notice the <p<a thing
20:41:30 <Vorpal> aha! http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
20:41:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Wasn't that an editor?
20:41:46 <fizzie> I guess it might work as a browser too.
20:42:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, something something webdav?
20:42:57 <olsner> I think it was both? like a wysiwyg html editor thingy, back when people said wysiwyg
20:43:22 <Vorpal> Did someone ever "say" wysiwyg?
20:43:27 <fizzie> It's predecessor of sorts -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_(web_browser) -- seems to have been a pure browser.
20:43:28 <Vorpal> It is quite tricky to pronounce
20:43:37 <fizzie> I vaguely recall trying Amaya out.
20:44:12 <olsner> Vorpal: hmm, how is that tricky to pronounce?
20:44:39 <Taneb> Vorpal: whizzy wig?
20:44:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, oh yeah that would work
20:45:07 <Vorpal> Hm, I guess I just used to have problems pronouncing it
20:45:38 <olsner> maybe you had dyswysiwygia
20:45:50 <fizzie> All editors are WYGIWYG editors.
20:51:57 <Taneb> Why are train tickets so expensive here
20:52:22 <Taneb> Booking ages in advance, 61.40 from Hexham to Manchester
20:53:31 <fizzie> €25 or something from Nice to Geneva.
20:53:32 <olsner> because people booking ages in advance are the ones who are willing to pay a fortune just to be "sure"
20:54:09 <fizzie> Ordering 50-60 days in advance in Finland gives you a 50% discount of the "default" price. (You can't order more than 60 days in advance.)
20:54:21 <fizzie> It's still kinda expensive, though.
20:56:08 <fizzie> Not quite *that* expensive, however; I think it was something like €40 (for the cheapest possible price) for almost twice that distance (Helsinki to Joensuu).
20:56:42 <fizzie> (€70 if you'd want to travel tomorrow.)
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21:10:42 <Sgeo> Should I watch the Doctor Who movie?
21:12:48 <Taneb> Doctor Who and the Daleks?
21:12:55 <Taneb> Doctor Who: Invasion Earth?
21:13:18 <fizzie> Isn't that Daleks - Invasion Earth?
21:13:38 <Taneb> Something like that
21:14:05 <fizzie> Daktaklakpaks - Invasion Earth.
21:14:26 <Sgeo> The one with the 8th Doctor
21:14:33 <Taneb> Sgeo: so neither of those
21:14:42 <Taneb> shachaf: these colons are making me uncomfortable
21:14:49 <fizzie> Taneb: Star Control 3.
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21:19:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, Star Control, isn't that an old PC game?
21:19:38 <Fiora> star control 2 is a wonderful game of wonderfulness
21:19:59 <Vorpal> oh yeah, that was the game with a open source HD thingy happening to it recently
21:21:08 <Vorpal> Fiora, I'm too young to remember the Star Control series. Seems like a cool concept though
21:21:10 <fizzie> It also has the very non-recent open source port (Ur-Quan Masters).
21:21:19 <Vorpal> especially the open source thing
21:21:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc there was a HD thing of that recently though
21:22:03 <Vorpal> The voice acting was pretty hilariously bad. Was that original?
21:22:27 <fizzie> The PC version didn't have any voice acting, so I wouldn't know.
21:22:37 <fizzie> Much of the port comes from the 3DO version, I believe, though.
21:22:51 <Vorpal> 3DO? Which one was that...
21:23:04 <Vorpal> One of the early CD systems supporting FMV?
21:23:11 <fizzie> They made a rather obscure CD-based console.
21:23:43 <fizzie> Well, I don't know how obscure it is, but it's not one of the big names.
21:23:44 <Vorpal> so around the time of CDi?
21:23:49 <Fiora> I'm way too young for it too, but there's an open source re-release called The Ur-Quan Masters
21:23:53 <Fiora> which is incredibly wonderful
21:24:07 <Fiora> great story, great aliens, great voices, fun gameplay, nonlinearness
21:24:10 <fizzie> Fiora: We've established that already, actually.
21:24:24 <Fiora> okay enough fangirling it's really good
21:24:38 <Fiora> I played it back in um... high school I think
21:24:53 <Vorpal> Does that game have any sort of time limit or such? It seems like the kind of game I would just spend ages exploring
21:25:21 <Fiora> it does have a time limit, about um... 5 in game years I think? it's pretty long, you can complete the game a lot faster than that, but it does limit you a little I guess
21:25:33 <fizzie> Yeah, I didn't really like the time limit.
21:25:39 <Fiora> it's really a long time
21:25:45 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that UQM has an option to disable it, too.
21:25:47 <Vorpal> Well it is open source, shouldn't be hard to figure out
21:26:06 <Fiora> I don't think it's a big deal, I explored like crazy and still finished the game within the time limit
21:26:13 <Fiora> there's a plot related thing you can do to extend the time limit by a year, too XD
21:26:41 <Bike> get the mask guys to blow shit up, yeah?
21:26:43 <Fiora> I guess I kinda recommend a bit of a walkthrough for the game though, just so you have an idea of the things you have to do
21:26:49 <fizzie> Yes, the time limit is related to the story.
21:27:18 <Fiora> the time limit is because earth will be gone at that point if you don't save the universe.
21:27:21 <Fiora> no spoilers beyond that XP
21:27:50 <Fiora> also fwiffo is literally the best character ever in the history of ever
21:28:08 <Vorpal> Fiora, his voice acting was pretty terrible though
21:28:17 <Fiora> I loved it so much
21:28:23 <fizzie> Fiora: The guy in the office opposite to mine at the university has the Spathi theme music as his phone ringtone.
21:28:33 <Vorpal> Fiora, it was just so laughable.
21:28:36 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdsa5vrOLnI the voice acting is completely amazing
21:28:52 <fizzie> I should perhaps check out the HD version some day, the screenshots look quite nice.
21:29:01 <Vorpal> Also as a character, yes he was funny, but pretty shallow. Just a coward alien.
21:29:10 <Vorpal> No character development
21:29:29 <fizzie> The PC version has its soundtrack in S3M or some other mod format, and a couple of them are made by a Finnish guy.
21:29:37 <fizzie> (They've still got the instrument name comments &c.)
21:29:44 <Fiora> it's a silly space adventure game about meeting absurd alien species and saving the galaxy, I'm not sure one can expect that level of depth in individual characters XD
21:30:31 <fizzie> There is (was?) a soundtrack remix project going around, too, IIRC.
21:30:39 <Vorpal> Fiora, I just finished reading a Ps:T lets play (really really good writing and editing in it), so my mind is in a different kind of gear than "silly & shallow" atm
21:30:42 <fizzie> http://www.medievalfuture.com/precursors/main.php -- oh, there it is.
21:30:43 <Fiora> I think the game let you choose to install remixes instead of the main tracks?
21:31:34 <fizzie> One of the guys mentioned at the bottom of that page is the Finnish guy I spoke of.
21:31:56 <Bike> fizzie: c'mon, who didn't cry at admiral zex's solliloquoy
21:32:20 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the new Quasispace music was kind of bad, though.
21:32:40 <Vorpal> I can really recommend this if you have a lot of time left over: http://lparchive.org/Planescape-Torment/ (it is pretty long, 158 updates)
21:32:50 <Fiora> I think I'd rather play the game itself... I don't really like LPs
21:33:14 <Vorpal> Fiora, Better than playing the game IMO, since the combat in the game is pretty bad. The story is the good part of that game.
21:33:21 <Fiora> I played some of PS:T a while back but I'm kind of terrible with 2D infinity-engine-style games, they feel really dated and I feel bad about it >_<
21:33:47 <Sgeo> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Methods/SpaceJump.html
21:34:10 <Vorpal> Fiora, I heard the combat in Ps:T is especially bad, even compared to the other Infinity Engine games
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21:34:25 <Vorpal> the story though... Also the sound track is amazing
21:35:01 <Bike> Sgeo: needs more lasers imo
21:35:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, first april joke?
21:36:00 <Vorpal> wait what, are they real? Is this something used by server side image maps or something?
21:36:17 <Sgeo> I think it was in HTTP 1.0 but not 1.1/
21:36:31 <Vorpal> Fiora, also fwiffo's voice gets annoying so quickly
21:36:34 <Sgeo> Well, not in 1.0
21:36:40 <Sgeo> But in a draft related to it
21:36:55 <olsner> apparently they're just different names for GET: http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Methods/GetSearches.html
21:37:29 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I can't find anything related to those apart from those pages
21:39:41 <fizzie> There are mailing list posts referring to a "HTTP draft of 5 Nov 93" containing them.
21:40:39 <Vorpal> Fiora, I have taken to preferring LPs as of late. And I mean good LPs, made by people who know the game and will cut out and/or fast forward through grinding, not show off pointless deaths and so on. Because when it is done right, it adds something to the experience while removing or reducing the annoying parts of the game.
21:41:20 <Sgeo> "If the server responds this way [304 Not Modified] to an unconditional request, the result will be browser-specific and may be hilarious; for example, Opera will pop up a nonfunctional download prompt"
21:41:21 <Vorpal> Fiora, I have little interest in blind youtube LPs by people who never played the game before.
21:41:39 <Vorpal> Sgeo, responds to what?
21:41:58 <Sgeo> An unconditional request. As in, no If-Not-Modified: or similar
21:42:11 <Vorpal> what happens in other browsers?
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21:42:33 <Sgeo> Don't know; I'd love to try it
21:42:41 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Good LPs show stuff that you never thought of
21:42:49 <Vorpal> FreeFull, that too yes.
21:43:22 <Vorpal> FreeFull, The Ps:T LP I linked fulfill all of these requirements.
21:44:03 <Vorpal> FreeFull, Also it does something I never seen in an LP before. It uses a frame story
21:44:15 <Vorpal> Really interesting idea.
21:45:00 <Vorpal> And reasonably well executed in this case too. There is a bit of difference in skill level of the author between the start and the end of the LP though.
21:46:19 <Sgeo> Ah. As someone who's never played, should I watch that LP?
21:46:34 <Sgeo> If I want the story but don't particularly want to play
21:46:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo, read. It is a SA LP, not a youtube one
21:47:23 <Vorpal> Sgeo, but yes I would recommend it. I liked it. Ps: T has one of the best stories, if not the best story, ever seen in video games, but the combat mechanics of it was pretty terrible.
21:47:25 <olsner> is it plane scape or plan escape?
21:47:27 <fizzie> I've read it; it was nice.
21:47:44 <Vorpal> olsner, Plane Scape I think. As in landscape
21:48:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, the LP? Or the book based on the game?
21:48:50 <Vorpal> IIRC I have that as a PDF, I bought a bundle of all the Infinity Engine games on GoG a year ago or so. There was a book version of Ps:T as an extra
21:49:22 <fizzie> I may have read (a stolen copy of) that too.
21:49:31 <Vorpal> I haven't read that PDF.
21:49:32 <hagb4rd> i|ve heard so much bout PT and its deep story, but i somehow didn|t feel comfortable with its visual theme..and so never really get into it
21:50:00 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, you mean the visual style? The twisted and worn out world?
21:50:37 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, I usually seen it written as PsT or Ps:T
21:50:38 <fizzie> Slightly similar stuff are the NWN2 LP's at lparchive, though they make much more with the funny.
21:51:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, NWN1 was a pretty light hearted game I thought. Well compared to Ps:T at any rate. No idea about NWN2.
21:51:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Mask of the Betrayer expansion is kind of Torment-y, actually.
21:51:56 <Vorpal> Also NWN1 took place in a relatively bright and colourful world, that cannot be said of Ps:T yet again.
21:52:10 <Vorpal> I played all the NWN1 expansions
21:52:31 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, the technology of the time man
21:52:42 <hagb4rd> yea and the concept of level editing
21:52:59 <Vorpal> Never tried the level editor really. It crashed in wine
21:53:02 <fizzie> There's a bit of plane-traveling going on, and it's not at all bright and happy.
21:53:05 <Vorpal> I do have NWN1 for linux though
21:53:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, ooh, I should find an LP of that expansion then
21:53:51 <fizzie> Well, http://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/ then.
21:54:07 <fizzie> As a disclaimer, you might not like the style of it. Then again, you might.
21:54:09 <Vorpal> but I guess it was an expansion
21:54:31 <hagb4rd> it was pretty easy to use (100 times easier than the Level editor for skyrim), but it didn't allow much more than attaching that cubic tiles
21:54:35 <fizzie> There's a NWN2 LP from the same person, it uses the same player character as this one.
21:54:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, Hm almost all images? A lot of scrolling here it seems.
21:54:49 <fizzie> It's quite image-heavy, yes.
21:55:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, Not sure I'm a fan of that eh.
21:55:11 <fizzie> Anyway, there's certainly no need to read the NWN2 base-game one first, but there's a couple of back-references IIRC.
21:55:26 <Vorpal> so same as for the NWN1 expansions then
21:55:50 <Vorpal> Pretty much stand alone though there were a couple of references, especially in the one that took place in Waterdeep
21:56:00 <Vorpal> (like, same companions)
21:56:13 <Vorpal> iirc the floating city one was more standalone?
21:56:24 <Vorpal> man I forgot the name of the expansions
21:56:26 <fizzie> The LP also does "the evil path" re-run (that's the "The Truth" section) after it's finished.
21:58:22 <Vorpal> Hm is there any game like Ps:T when it comes to the story? I heard Bioshock Infinite has a great story, but poor combat too. Might wait for a good LP of that. None of those around yet.
21:58:52 <Vorpal> (Doubtful it will have the depth of Ps:T though.)
21:59:06 <Vorpal> hagb4rd, oh? I never played them
21:59:39 <Vorpal> Wasn't it the one were everyone were racist against elves of something?
21:59:45 <Vorpal> or was that Dragonage 2?
21:59:48 <fizzie> MotB's storyline is most Torment-y as far as themes and such go I've personally come across.
22:00:22 <elliott> i heard bioshock infinite has an awful story
22:00:39 <mnoqy> i heard bioshock infinite is a game
22:00:58 <fizzie> I've also heard that Arcanum has an interesting story, and an interestinger setting.
22:01:02 <hagb4rd> btw..here http://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=211.0
22:01:21 <mnoqy> something something controversey something i dont know anything about any of it
22:01:40 <Bike> Can someone give me an easy simple example of using an infinite list?
22:01:45 <Sgeo> "There are no good solutions to this problem yet; purging your browser cache after visiting Starbucks may be a very good idea."
22:02:08 <Sgeo> map (+1) [1..] you mean like that?
22:02:26 <Bike> well, except something "real" groan
22:02:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> i heard bioshock infinite has an awful story <-- really?
22:03:05 <mnoqy> > let fibs = 0 : 1 : zipWith (+) fibs (drop 1 fibs) in take 10 fibs
22:03:16 <mnoqy> Bike: real enough for you????
22:03:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, worth taking a look at I guess. Wait... wasn't that the game Chris Avalone was doing an LP of or something?
22:04:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently that is true, though I hadn't heard anything about it before now.
22:04:49 <mnoqy> > zip [1..] "hello"
22:04:51 <lambdabot> [(1,'h'),(2,'e'),(3,'l'),(4,'l'),(5,'o')]
22:04:55 <elliott> > let fibs@(_:(zipWith (+) fibs -> fibses)) = 0 : 1 : fibses in fibses
22:04:55 <mnoqy> Bike: another real example!!!
22:04:56 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,177...
22:05:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Based on some Googling around, MotB seems to be the game perhaps most often mentioned in "what else is like Torment" threads, FWIW.
22:05:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does he have time for it?
22:05:11 <Bike> mnoqy: thanks!!!
22:05:17 <mnoqy> elliott: viewpats??
22:05:20 <elliott> > let fibs@(_:((0 :) . (1 :) . zipWith (+) fibs -> fibses)) = fibses in fibses
22:05:32 <elliott> > let fibs@ ~(_:((0 :) . (1 :) . zipWith (+) fibs -> fibses)) = fibses in fibses
22:05:38 <elliott> mnoqy: BoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!
22:05:50 <elliott> i guess you can't really do it like that
22:05:53 <elliott> the original is good enough tho
22:06:06 <lambdabot> elliott says: I think lens is the first library I've seen that promises letting you write abstract totally-inefficient-looking compositional code and getting reliably good compilation which has
22:06:06 <lambdabot> actually delivered on that promise.
22:06:09 <lambdabot> elliott says: I think lens is the first library I've seen that promises letting you write abstract totally-inefficient-looking compositional code and getting reliably good compilation which has
22:06:09 <lambdabot> actually delivered on that promise.
22:06:11 <lambdabot> elliott says: > let fact ~(id &&& (fact . pred) -> (n,m)) = if n == 0 then 1 else n * m in fact 10
22:06:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Apparently it was a Project Eternity stretch goal, or something?
22:06:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, just the style or the type of story too? (I.e. not "hero saving the world" but something a bit different, like Torments "protagonist finding who he is")
22:06:22 <elliott> why did someone add the first one as a quote anyway
22:06:23 <mnoqy> arrows and view patterns....
22:06:42 <fizzie> Vorpal: "Also at $4.0m Chris Avellone will be forced to play Arcanum." http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity
22:06:46 <elliott> the ~ can be dropped ther btw
22:07:07 <FreeFull> My implementation of factorial is O(inf)
22:07:27 <elliott> view pattern recursion is the future
22:07:30 <hagb4rd> also i've heard chrono trigger is very good when comes to story..but that's a _really_ old classic, so for retro fans only
22:07:46 <FreeFull> "For retro fans only" bullshit
22:07:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, the Numenera one had one which forced Colin McComb make a video apology for writing 2nd-edition D&D Complete Book of Elves.
22:07:55 <elliott> what kinda definition of real old are we talking here.....
22:07:58 <elliott> i'd call like atari games "real old"
22:08:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, okay. Presumably there is a back story there? Did he not like the game or what? I guess the LP might be interesting though, with the chance of some comments on the game design from the game designer perspective.
22:08:09 <Bike> older than Christ's resurrection imo
22:08:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I saw that, didn't get the joke though.
22:08:27 <elliott> chrono trigger is newer than monkey island!!
22:08:30 <elliott> i guess monkey island is sorta retro
22:08:31 <fizzie> Apparently it was considered bad.
22:08:37 <elliott> only by a few months......
22:08:50 <mnoqy> i enjoyed chrono trigger when i played it does this make me a retro fan
22:08:51 <Vorpal> elliott, mmm CT was pretty good. So was Monkey Island.
22:08:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've read an Arcanum LP, too.
22:09:46 <fizzie> http://lparchive.org/Arcanum/ "screenshot, informative, humorous, narrative, co-op, completionist" well, that's often a good set of tags.
22:09:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon* lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:09:54 <fizzie> hagb4rd: Case-sensitive.
22:09:57 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:10:09 <fungot> hagb4rd: you! take! we find! marle too! ayla have fun! i heard you were to be executed, dear!
22:10:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, so is the LP worth reading?
22:10:54 <Vorpal> Quite picture heavy as well
22:11:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well... I did read all the way through it. You could try, say, the first chapter or three. It's written in quite a story-like fashion.
22:11:51 <Bike> it's where you watch someone else play a video game
22:12:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it gets a bit less picture-heavy later on. I mean, lots of scrolling, still, but more text in-between pictures.
22:12:13 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I have found very few good video letsplayers though. Most of them don't really know the game.
22:12:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah, picture heavy is pretty bad when reading it on smaller devices on the go though.
22:13:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: I read... probably that Arcanum one, actually; or the NWN2 thing... largely on the N900. It was quite painful.
22:14:14 <fizzie> Especially if one wanted to start reading before it had finished loading.
22:14:45 <fizzie> Then again, the N900 doesn't have all that much muscle in it, compared to mobile devices these days.
22:15:20 <Vorpal> isn't the N900 tiny? The screen I mean
22:15:26 <Vorpal> At least I read it on an S3
22:15:31 <Vorpal> which is reasonably large
22:15:53 <fizzie> It's not *tiny*, it's just that new phones are huge and bulky.
22:16:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, but for something like this it would be tiny
22:16:15 <Vorpal> also I quite enjoy my S3
22:16:25 <Vorpal> don't want to go bigger than that though
22:17:26 <hagb4rd> y do i hate smartphones? i can't help myself
22:17:37 <fizzie> I suppose that's kind of small, compared to the now-usual 4-5" sizes.
22:20:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, also it was terribly dim in direct sunlight
22:21:04 <Vorpal> I did look at one for a couple of minutes last summer
22:21:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, the N9 seemed much nicer in size
22:21:34 <Vorpal> I have seen one of those too
22:21:47 <Vorpal> (a guy at work had one)
22:22:36 <fizzie> It's also two years newer.
22:23:01 <fizzie> Spec pages say 3.9" vs. that 3.5".
22:23:38 <Vorpal> The Note 2 is silly-large for a phone though
22:23:47 <Vorpal> is that 6" or something?
22:24:40 <fizzie> It was somewhere around six, yes.
22:25:11 <fizzie> Oh, 5.55". Well, it still rounds up.
22:25:56 <fizzie> I hear it's technically a "phablet" if it's >= 5 and < 7.
22:26:09 -!- pwd has joined.
22:26:38 <fizzie> "Reuters called 2013, the "Year of the Phablet."[10]"
22:26:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, An S3 is 4.3 iirc?
22:26:54 <Vorpal> or something like that
22:26:55 <fizzie> Maybe 2014 will be Year of the Linux on Desktop.
22:27:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, you don't think it will be 2013?
22:27:28 <fizzie> Well, if 2013 is already claimed by the Phablet...
22:27:37 <fizzie> I don't think you can be multiple.
22:28:00 <fizzie> Year of the Linux on Phablet.
22:28:10 <fizzie> (Didn't they come up with a release of Ubuntu Touch a while ago?)
22:28:24 <Vorpal> developer preview iirc
22:28:36 <Vorpal> quite far from release ready as I understood it
22:28:42 <Vorpal> most apps were dummy place holder icons
22:28:45 <elliott> Year of Linux on the Desktop is after Year of Everyone Stops Caring About Desktops
22:29:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I doubt that will happen any time soon. As long as there are PC gamers there will be desktops
22:30:26 <Bike> what's a brainlink.
22:30:27 <mnoqy> what will it take for me to stop caring about desktops??? idk probably something amazing
22:30:58 <mnoqy> and does anyone still actually care about year of linux on desktop
22:31:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: how about ten super mega updates in a row
22:31:18 <shachaf> would you stop caring about desktops then
22:31:32 <elliott> Vorpal: gamers don't count as people
22:32:02 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bynary is this someone from the channel having a go
22:32:06 <elliott> i'm watching you anothertest
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22:32:18 <mnoqy> can you imagine actually calling yourself a "gamer" and being proud of it and
22:32:39 <zzo38> I think the log URL got mixed up somehow
22:32:54 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:33:00 -!- elliott has set topic: http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:33:03 <mnoqy> what's this bynary thing it looks underdocumented
22:33:49 <mnoqy> whooaoaaaa lookit all these user creations
22:34:47 <mnoqy> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tirage_oui_non_gratuit_horoscope_daily_free sweet it's in french
22:34:49 <fizzie> So many new esolang enthusiasts!
22:35:04 <fizzie> Truly 2013 will be the year of esolang on brain.
22:35:36 <mnoqy> "Tirage oui non gratuit horoscope daily free"
22:35:37 <Bike> the year of brainfuck on the desktop.
22:37:03 <Bike> the year of greetings to shachaf on the desktop
22:37:31 <shachaf> hey should i see the film _The Kind and I_ (1956)
22:37:43 <shachaf> hey should i see the film _The King and I_ (1956)
22:38:05 <Bike> yes you should see it, not yes if it's good. i dunno if it's good.
22:38:07 <shachaf> mnoqy: don't ask me i haven't ""seen it............
22:38:19 <shachaf> yesterday i saw _Anastasia_ (1956 film)
22:38:26 <Bike> is that prefix quote
22:38:44 <mnoqy> i think i've seen both of those films but ages ago so i don't remember them (RIP)
22:38:57 <shachaf> the question you must ask yourself mnoqy is.....are you good
22:39:14 <mnoqy> pff how should i know ALT pff no ALT pfffffffffffffffffffffffff
22:39:28 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=112
22:39:29 <mnoqy> alt -roll- alt :-) alt
22:39:57 <shachaf> that was a good super mega comics
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23:16:53 <Sgeo> ,data:text/html,<plaintext><b>Hi there</b>
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00:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN PAUL GRAHAM'S HEAD: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/legendary-vc-paul-graham-suspects-bitcoin-was-created-by-a-government-cm238901#.UXR-JbXWQ45
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00:06:16 <Bike> yeah bitcoin is needed for black ops
00:09:21 <Phantom_Hoover> "I realize some of these explanations are pretty far fetched, but so is an individual cooking up bitcoin as an intellectual exercise
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00:12:28 <kmc> hi shachaf
00:17:04 <kmc> do you have any thoughts or ideas which may cheer me up
00:21:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
00:24:27 <kmc> I'm pissed off because I got fired and I feel I was treated poorly by the company
00:24:45 <kmc> the reason given by the founders doesn't make sense and they refuse to elaborate
00:25:43 <kmc> and my guess as to the real reason is infuriating if true
00:25:58 <kmc> and these are people who I respected and thought of as friends before now
00:26:17 <kmc> and also I'm dependent on them for practically any future job references because I worked with them at Ksplice as well
00:26:46 <kmc> and i'm generally bitter
00:27:06 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:27:30 <kmc> and can't think of anything i want to do next
00:29:25 <Fiora> what do you guess the real reason is?
00:29:31 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
00:29:50 <kmc> thanks Fiora, shachaf, lambdabot
00:30:13 <shachaf> Surely there are other people at ksplice or that other company you worked at that you could ask?
00:31:20 <Fiora> I don't think future employers will really interrogate everyone you ever worked for... I think mostly they just want a simple reference to call to check you worked there...
00:32:59 <kmc> Fiora: the reason I suspect: they hired someone else at the same time as me, who turned out to be a bad employee, but they felt obliged to keep him because they'd convinced him to drop out of college to join them
00:33:11 <kmc> and my patience with him ran out before everyone else's
00:33:18 <kmc> so they got rid of me
00:35:03 <kmc> I wasn't very happy there but I was trying to make it work, and they were very accommodating up until one day i'm fired
00:35:15 <kmc> there wasn't any clear warning like "shape up or else"
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00:36:17 <kmc> i got a lot done, I was #2 in terms of commits with a 3x margin over the next person (I know this is a shitty metric, but it's objectively verifiable and probably indicates that I wasn't a complete slacker at least)
00:36:19 <Fiora> kmc: I guess the upside of that is that they don't hate you or anything, I imagine?
00:36:28 <kmc> i don't know! they won't tell me!
00:36:31 <Fiora> would you think they'd give you a bad recommendation out of spite?
00:36:38 <kmc> for all I know I did something horribly wrong and they just won't tell me
00:37:24 <kmc> all they'll say is that is was based on "carefully deliberating about how I was doing at [company] for many months"
00:37:43 <kmc> but I didn't receive any kind of warning or really much negative feedback at all during weekly meetings with my manager
00:38:54 <Fiora> that's... kind of really terrifying
00:39:02 <Fiora> just, out of nowhere, with no reason...
00:39:02 <kmc> i don't think they would give me a bad review out of spite but like... i don't know
00:39:09 <kmc> I thought I knew these people
00:39:14 <kmc> now I'm sure I don't
00:39:20 <Fiora> and nobody you knew there will say anything? >_<
00:40:28 <kmc> it wasn't totally out of nowhere, I was unhappy and they knew I was unhappy and I brought up various complaints, but like, I thought we were working on solutions
00:40:43 <elliott> kinda sounds like something personal tbqh
00:40:47 <elliott> but i don't know anything and you shouldn't listen to me
00:41:06 <kmc> yeah I don't know
00:41:13 <kmc> I tried to be civil even to this one person who I thought was a bad worker
00:41:25 <kmc> I may have failed
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00:42:33 * Lymia is implementing bfjoust for a program
00:42:43 <Lymia> I think this is the most hack-filled code I've ever written
00:42:56 <Lymia> Like... implementing ] as a 0 tick command, and, inserting a nop before each one >_>;
00:43:20 <elliott> kmc: i mean being completely opaque like that and refusing to elaborate is a pretty bad attitude, it doesn't really suggest to me that you might have done something legitimately awful (because then it would be very simple to point to it)
00:43:26 <elliott> but, again, previous disclaimer, I know nothing
00:43:58 <shachaf> i'm told that sometimes people are vague because they're worried about lawsuits and have nothing to gain from not being vague
00:44:02 <kmc> that's why I think it was basically "he's lost patience with this other guy, we have to keep the other guy, therefore we fire him"
00:45:25 <elliott> things i am learning: don't convince people to drop out to join your company
00:45:39 <mnoqy> things im learning: dont work at kmcs company
00:45:44 <mnoqy> dont work with people
00:45:49 <Fiora> I guess it could also be a bit of "it's easier to say nothing than to try to awkwardly try to dodge around things"
00:45:58 <Fiora> since they lose nothing by not talking to you
00:46:26 <shachaf> mnoqy: people are p. bad but maybe the alternative is worse??
00:46:40 <mnoqy> shachaf: maybe....
00:46:50 <Fiora> but. you're really good, you should be able to find something else... I'd hope...
00:47:41 <kmc> yeah I will be totally ok financially
00:47:45 <kmc> that's not the worry
00:48:27 <Fiora> you're just worried you were doing something wrong, you don't know what it is, and you might do it again and it's just unsettling and nerve-wracking?
00:48:33 <Bike> when you get fired don't you get like a two week grace period? or is that just for quitting
00:48:34 <kmc> there's that
00:48:44 <kmc> Bike: that's just for quitting and is also sort of optional
00:49:07 <kmc> in previous cases where I quit a job, I offered to stay for 2 weeks and they declined
00:49:28 <Bike> Fiora: the "oh, people i thought i knew" aspect seems more thingy
00:49:32 <kmc> also in most situations (and ianal etc) if you just quit on the spot they can be pissed off, they can give you a bad rec or whatever, but they can't come after you legally
00:49:32 <elliott> Bike: do you really think america would guarantee anything for workers
00:49:45 <Bike> elliott: i call it optimism
00:49:56 <olsner> oh, was this in america? then I retract my surprise
00:49:57 <mnoqy> differs by state right
00:49:58 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
00:50:14 <Bike> yeah i figured you might not get legal anything anyway because of startup everything
00:50:14 <kmc> elliott: well I think America actually does too much in terms of tying benefits to employment
00:50:15 <elliott> mnoqy: US minimum wage is something in the region of $0/hour right
00:50:26 <kmc> we should just have universal govt provided benefits and then let people do at will employment
00:50:27 <Fiora> it's like $8 (close enough?)
00:50:27 <shachaf> elliott: it's actually negative
00:50:33 <kmc> minimum wage varies a lot by state
00:50:43 <elliott> just fill out the sides and you've got a zero
00:50:45 <kmc> interestingly even in the states with higher minimum wage, cost of living more or less eats it up
00:50:47 <Bike> it's $9.something where I live. (highest in the country)
00:51:13 <shachaf> Well, cost of living varies a lot within a state too.
00:51:20 <kmc> http://blakefallconroy.com/18.html
00:51:29 <Bike> it's probably cheaper to live in my part of washington than it is to live in like seattle
00:51:50 <elliott> i don't even know where kmc is
00:51:59 <Bike> new england somewhere?
00:52:03 * Bike gestures vaguely
00:52:15 <kmc> massachusetts
00:52:18 <Fiora> I don't understand how anyone is expected to live on $8/hr around here, a single-bedroom apartment is like $1500/month
00:52:35 <kmc> Fiora: immigrants living 10 to an apartment
00:52:40 <kmc> that's how it is in NYC anyway
00:52:46 <kmc> Chinatown still has Chinese people because they are willing to do this
00:53:28 <kmc> as gas prices rise I wonder if McMansions in suburbia will become multi-family slum housing
00:53:38 <Lymia> (...{...}...{...}...)%n
00:53:40 <Lymia> Is illegal, right?
00:53:40 <Fiora> kmc: hopefully at least you have some friends out of work... even online?
00:53:46 <kmc> I have friends
00:53:54 <kmc> also I'm sure there are many wealthy Chinese people in Chinatown
00:53:56 <kmc> I shouldn't stereotype
00:54:22 <Fiora> haven't a lot of those already been abandoned? since, like, they were bought with subprime loans and so on
00:54:22 <kmc> o snap elliott
00:54:37 <kmc> depends on the area
00:54:37 <Bike> mcmansions are probably pretty good for squatting
00:55:03 <kmc> i think my parents' subdivision in Iowa is still mostly intact, it grew maybe a bit before the craziest part of the housing bubble, and also it's not like anyone's fever dream fantasy to move to Iowa
00:55:12 <kmc> compared to Nevada or Florida or California
00:55:37 <Bike> i live near some subdivisions that were under construction when the bubble hit, there are still plenty of empty places
00:55:51 <mnoqy> people want to move to nevada?
00:55:56 <Bike> also a "village" area that has some commercial zoning too, it's actually sad
00:56:09 <kmc> mnoqy: amazingly yes
00:56:19 <Fiora> kmc: the gap in prices between areas like that has always stunned me I mean, like, it makes sense, but -wow-
00:56:25 <elliott> in my mind nevada is just the world's biggest desert with las vegas stuck in the middle of it
00:56:31 <elliott> and both of those terrify me
00:56:33 <Fiora> you can get practically mansions for $200k in less desirable areas
00:56:36 <mnoqy> nevada is miserable
00:56:40 <Fiora> and in an expensive suburb area $200k is the price of a garage
00:56:42 <kmc> mnoqy: warm climate, no income tax
00:56:44 <elliott> i don't understand how vegas can even exist
00:56:56 <Bike> organized crime
00:56:58 <elliott> it's just the most awful place to me
00:56:59 <Fiora> southern california is basically a highly irrigated desert too <.<
00:57:02 <Bike> to summarize the history
00:57:03 <elliott> i mean apart from the worse places
00:57:13 <kmc> I really like the Mojave Desert, as a place to go to get away from it all
00:57:16 <elliott> Bike: yeah but this is more like... a philosophical problem
00:57:19 <kmc> don't think I would want to live there
00:57:24 <elliott> it's not that i don't understand how it could have arisen
00:57:30 <kmc> i've spent enough time living in southern california
00:57:31 <Bike> also the nevada desert has other cities in it, that are like mini vegases
00:57:33 <elliott> i just don't get how it is actually possible for a place like vegas to exist
00:57:38 <kmc> Bike: Reno ;_;
00:57:57 <Bike> and yes your idea of vegas isn't that inaccurate
00:58:03 <Bike> the surroundings, i mean
00:58:19 * kmc flew TLV-RNO once
00:58:27 <elliott> things i know about reno: 1. johnny cash shot a man there 2. REM went there
00:58:30 <kmc> via... LHR and probably ORD or some shit, I was pretty out of it by the second stop
00:58:34 <Bike> elliott: something something testament to man's willingness to flip off god something
00:58:40 <shachaf> But not enough time in Northern California!
00:58:59 <kmc> shachaf: indeed
00:59:01 <kmc> maybe I should move to SF
00:59:06 <kmc> it's looking more and more likely..........
00:59:23 <kmc> great plan
00:59:28 <shachaf> hexham is literally the worst place to move to
00:59:31 <elliott> or helsinki (maybe slightly more viable)
00:59:43 <elliott> it's a common myth that we hexhamites hate helsinki
00:59:54 <Bike> haha there's a wildlife range north of las vegas
00:59:59 <Bike> "Desert National Wildlife Range"
01:00:20 <Bike> alas google street view does not extend to wildernesses
01:01:02 <kmc> helsinki is super expensive
01:01:09 <kmc> but yes I might like to live there
01:01:09 <elliott> kmc: http://blakefallconroy.com/11.html this is cute (re: your link)
01:01:17 <elliott> i should end all my messages with (re: something)
01:01:25 <elliott> kmc: you smell (re: your smell)
01:01:30 <kmc> (WAS RE: COCKS)
01:01:40 <kmc> i don't know if rent is expensive but like.... stuff is expensive
01:02:13 <kmc> also the pub tram is expensive and like... what chance is there that I can avoid riding the pub tram on a weekly basis
01:02:16 <elliott> well i mean fizzie lives there, and i can't imagine there is much money in speech recognition research [canned laughter]
01:02:25 <elliott> helsinki truly is the future
01:02:26 <kmc> [toilet flush sound effect]
01:02:37 <shachaf> should i go live in helsinki
01:02:49 <kmc> [elliott enters the room, studio audience applauds wildly]
01:02:56 <Bike> that's an old calculator
01:02:56 <kmc> don't live in the army
01:03:24 <elliott> kmc: both canned AND fresh laughter
01:03:31 <elliott> truly we are breaking down barriers
01:04:41 <shachaf> SF is pretty expensive these days.
01:04:52 <kmc> seriously too
01:05:39 <elliott> kmc: hexham is pretty cheap
01:05:53 <elliott> but i can't imagine it being expensive! i guess properties are
01:05:56 <elliott> since it's all like rural and shit
01:06:06 <kmc> do i have to buy a farm
01:06:18 <elliott> i mean it's not that rural
01:06:22 <Bike> http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/2013/jhvhrdes3.jpg help
01:06:28 <elliott> got some buildings that are older than your country and so on
01:06:36 <elliott> might even be in one now idk
01:08:23 <mnoqy> a market town and civil parish
01:09:00 <mnoqy> Hexham won the Town award in the 2005 Britain in Bloom awards. In the same year Hexham was also named * 'England's Favourite Market Town' by the magazine Country Life.
01:09:51 <kmc> five points on a log plot that kind of fit a straight line
01:09:53 <Bike> this has a geneticist as a co-author!
01:10:03 <Bike> i mean, one who writes about biosemiotics, but come on
01:10:17 <olsner> biosemiotics? sounds like hogwash
01:10:41 <Bike> well uexküll wrote some good stuff
01:10:47 <kmc> in the words of a wise philosopher, "Worms – oh my god WORMS"
01:10:54 <Bike> yeah, basically
01:10:59 <olsner> "... that studies the production, action, and interpretation of signs and codes in the biological realm."
01:11:10 <Bike> the abstract to the paper talks about the technological singularity asodfuhqfsa
01:11:29 <mnoqy> From within the Hexham Courant office a webcam over-looking Hexham Abbey can be viewed on the following website: Hexham Courant Hexham also has a town webportal called HexhamNet HexhamNet. It was first launched in October 2003 and continues to attract web visitors from all over the world.
01:11:29 <olsner> so like genetic divination or something?
01:12:07 <Bike> uexküll was like a proto-cyberneticist and his stuff shows up in theoretical ethology sometimes
01:12:11 <mnoqy> how is hexham so cute
01:12:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: elliott's influence hth
01:12:52 <HackEgo> 2013-04-18 07:14:37: <oerjan> CAPTCHA: Write a 200 word essay on why spamming should carry the death penalty. Be convincing.
01:12:55 <Bike> unfortunately it... does get dumb sometimes. a lot of times apparently
01:15:09 <shachaf> elliott: hexham looks ""reasonably cheap"
01:17:49 <elliott> how reasonable is reasonably
01:19:19 <shachaf> i can't tell it's in £.....................
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01:20:07 <Bike> ok i just came to a profound realization
01:20:44 <shachaf> i used to think that people were saying "wait ago"
01:20:57 <Bike> measuring organismal complexity by counting DNA base pairs is like concluding that microsoft word is More Highly Evolved than linux because the binaries are bigger
01:20:58 <shachaf> now i know that they say "way to go" but it still doesn't make sense :'(
01:21:11 <Bike> "that is the way to go"
01:21:20 <Bike> "continue going on this way you are presently going on"
01:21:53 <shachaf> Bike: dna codez is not written in the same way as computer codez.............
01:22:00 <mnoqy> chance that microsoft word is actually more complex than linux?
01:22:09 <shachaf> last chance: should i see _The King and I (1956 film)_ or not
01:22:13 <Sgeo> At first I thought you were talking about that idiot who thinks that we're gaining new strands of DNA in some glorious something-or-other, and points to some severely disabled kid as our future
01:22:27 <olsner> shachaf: if 1956 means it's black and white, then no
01:22:30 <Bike> shachaf: the inner joke is that the analogy is just as bad as measuring complexity by base pairs.
01:22:34 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/1cqs00/what_the_hell_first_child_officially_diagnosed/
01:22:42 <Bike> shachaf: see it.
01:23:26 <Bike> ascensionearth2012, are you serious
01:23:26 <elliott> is this another one of sgeo clicks a link to sugggest you don't
01:23:50 <Bike> is r/skeptic by any chance a forum where people shore up garbage to laugh at
01:24:09 <shachaf> elliott: are pounds sterling worth more than regular pounds
01:24:13 <Sgeo> Bike, sometimes
01:24:30 <olsner> shachaf: isn't one of those a unit of weight rather than a currency?
01:24:47 <olsner> if so, it depends on the material
01:24:57 <shachaf> olsner: Are you thinking of slugs?
01:25:03 <shachaf> pounds are a unit of mass hth
01:25:10 <Bike> slugs are the worst unit
01:25:12 <elliott> alright i clicked it. you win Sgeo thanks a lot.
01:25:34 <Bike> shachaf: they're used both ways. fuck the imperial system. fuck imperialism fuck patriarchy burn the queen
01:25:42 <shachaf> wait, slugs are the unit of mass
01:25:55 <olsner> maybe ... mass but implicitly a weight in 1g gravity?
01:25:57 <shachaf> okay i just don't know how it works
01:26:16 <shachaf> elliott: are you going to let Bike get away with saying that
01:26:23 <shachaf> without even devoicing him for it
01:26:27 <Bike> "Read more about Alfie Clamp born with extra DNA in world first and see a picture of him at the Daily Mail." is every fucking news site an aggregator for everything else now
01:26:47 <Bike> a slug is also an animal you fucks!!!!!!!!!!!!
01:26:56 <shachaf> olsner: 1 gram gravity what that doesn't make any sense..
01:27:01 <Sgeo> A slug is also an identifier
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01:27:31 <Bike> sgeo i'm reading a daily mail article because of you
01:27:37 <shachaf> Bike: wow a slug is a bad unit
01:27:52 <Bike> shame because they're a good animal
01:27:53 <shachaf> who even invented this unit and why
01:27:54 <Bike> but a bad unit
01:28:16 <elliott> don't even get what the link was for
01:28:20 <olsner> shachaf: wrong g! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_gravity
01:28:26 <elliott> like it wasn't to a comment...
01:28:37 <Bike> because i mentioned DNA and the link was also about DNA??
01:29:10 <shachaf> olsner: come to think of it ½gt² doesn't make sense either. half a gram?
01:29:14 <Bike> The blob is the inch version of the slug (1 blob = 1 lbf·s2/in = 12 slugs)[1] or equivalent to 175.126 kg. This unit is also called slinch (a portmanteau of the words slug and inch).[8][9] Slang terms are slugette,[10] and a snail.[11]
01:30:07 <olsner> shachaf: is that a half gramsquaretonne?
01:30:13 <Bike> Metric units include the "glug" in the centimetre-gram-second system, and the "mug", "par", or "MTE" in the metre-kilogram-second system.[12]
01:31:00 <kmc> at least I'll have a software defined radio to play with soon
01:36:12 <shachaf> Bike: I think I might not see it. :-(
01:38:22 <shachaf> But it's in <an hour at the theatre and I haven't eaten anything today.
01:38:44 <Bike> yeah, eat thing.
01:40:04 <Bike> ok the paper doesn't do any stats analysis at all, it just says it fits the line
01:42:16 <Bike> so of course a bunch of news outlets have headlines like "Moore's Law suggests panspermia" and shit
01:43:10 <kmc> isn't science journalism a beautiful thing
01:43:57 <kmc> does the 'ug' in slug / glug / mug stand for something?
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01:44:27 <Bike> it also cites "Darwin 1866". I choose to believe this refers to "The Movements and Habits of Climbing Plants"
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01:57:56 <kmc> maybe i should insist on formal performance reviews at my next job
01:58:06 <kmc> startups don't want to do them because it's process and paperwork
01:58:12 <kmc> but it seems preferable to being fired 9 months in out of the blue
01:59:35 <elliott> if you have performance reviews you'd have to write in a fast language like C/C++
02:00:00 <elliott> i have absolutely no point btw
02:00:08 <elliott> is this when you use "I,I"
02:00:26 <Bike> what the fuck is i,i
02:00:49 <kmc> it means 'i have no point, i just want to say'
02:00:54 <Bike> maybe i should make friends with some science journalists
02:00:55 <kmc> but maybe.... also an owl
02:01:11 <Bike> tell them things like that it's ok for them to stop reading a paper if it's ugly
02:01:13 <Sgeo> Huh. So the Press Release announcing Javascript suggested server-side Javascript.
02:01:27 <Bike> well, i guess they probably just read the abstracts, if anything
02:01:57 <Bike> "technological singularity"? the internet?? i'll write up an article IMMEDIATELY
02:02:09 <mnoqy> what sort of people are science journalists anyway. the sort of people who'd be science journalists, i'd imagine...
02:02:13 <Bike> this is what i imagine science journalists are like, and so i should meet some
02:02:26 <Bike> instead of having this caricature i mean
02:02:50 <Bike> oh, pz myers already trashed it for me
02:02:59 <mnoqy> did someone say information superhighway
02:03:05 <elliott> i don't like pz mysres but i forget why
02:03:08 <elliott> i remember there was a reason
02:03:27 <Bike> http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2013/04/sillyorg.png behold
02:03:35 <Bike> elliott: well he's kind of a new atheist
02:03:45 <elliott> yeah but it was for a different reason
02:03:49 <olsner> was it oerjan who started the I,I thing?
02:03:50 <Bike> i think he's less... "shitty", as the kids say, than dawkins, but still
02:04:02 <elliott> this was before i completely gave up on calling myself an atheist
02:04:11 <elliott> mnoqy: you know. "people like dawkins"
02:04:23 <Bike> it's a "movement" or w/e
02:04:33 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism
02:05:08 <mnoqy> is "nonreligious" a good term to avoid being grouped in with them because that's what i've been going with
02:05:10 <Bike> oh the quote in the intro is actually just antitheism. cool. that's cool
02:05:26 <elliott> i think i settled on "nonreligious" but also it's like not something that actually comes up ever
02:05:29 <Bike> i don't remember the last time i've even had to state my religious anything but i'd probably go with "atheism"
02:05:31 <elliott> unless you talk about religion and why would you
02:05:37 <Bike> just because... who cares
02:06:10 <Bike> Cardinal William Levada believes that New Atheism has misrepresented the doctrines of the church.[19] He described New Atheism as "aggressive", and he believed it to be the primary source of discrimination against Christians.[20]
02:06:25 <elliott> primary source of discrimination against christians
02:06:38 <Bike> yep. have you punched a cross today
02:07:11 <elliott> i got cross today (ha ha ha ha ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ahhaha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah0ah 09sadh sa09dh aiosdj ad jsaiodj saiodja;klweq4;kw4am6;kltr )
02:07:27 <elliott> don't you know anything about okoing
02:08:18 <elliott> *it from scratch each time
02:10:19 <elliott> go `outside your comfort zone'
02:11:17 <Bike> do i have one of those
02:11:57 <elliott> it's everything but okoing
02:12:03 <elliott> can you give a testimonial
02:12:13 <Bike> http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/005/cache/coelacanth_501_600x450.jpg
02:12:24 <elliott> you have to let yourself free
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02:20:46 <Lymia> Storing the "flag zeroed for one tick" flag
02:23:00 * Lymia tests with omnipotence
02:38:14 <kmc> Bike: that just reminds me of time trumpet
02:38:28 <Bike> is that about fish
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02:40:37 <kmc> noooooooo my IRC uptime
02:42:56 <Jafet> EC2? More like upscale
02:43:10 <kmc> free micro instance
02:45:35 <elliott> does anyone have any vps recommendations btw
02:45:51 <kmc> there's that http://prgmr.com
02:45:56 <kmc> why not prgmr
02:45:58 <kmc> 'dumb name'
02:46:13 <kmc> elliott: i hear rackspace is all right, maybe
02:46:17 <elliott> kmc: i was with prgmr before linode
02:46:34 <elliott> i moved because it's slow and i wanted more ram for running php/mysql/nginx/mediawiki
02:46:45 <elliott> it's especially nice that linode let me have my server in london
02:46:50 <elliott> because, i run my irc client on it
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02:47:41 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/BFJoust_Shalia$ scala -J-Xss32m -cp out/production/BFJoust_Shalia/ com.lymiahugs.shalia.VM omnipotence.bfjoust anticipation.bfjoust
02:47:41 <Lymia> <<<<<<<<>>>><<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<>>>><<<<<<<<< 26
02:47:41 <Lymia> lymia@infel:~/programming/BFJoust_Shalia$ ~/programming/bfjoust-evo/utils/gearlance omnipotence.bfjoust anticipation.bfjoust
02:47:41 <Lymia> <>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 36
02:47:45 <kmc> more ram for running php / mysql / mediawiki / russian spam botnet
02:47:46 <elliott> mosh does not make latency not annoying
02:47:55 <elliott> kmc: no they're french spammers nowadays
02:48:02 <Lymia> There's apparently some subtle behavioral difference in my Bfjoust implementation
02:48:09 <Lymia> That makes omnipotence lose
02:48:21 <elliott> Lymia: compare execution traces maybe?
02:48:32 <Lymia> I'm going to have to
02:48:43 <Jafet> @google hetzner robot -elliott
02:48:47 <Lymia> I'd have to figure out how to get gearlance to output one first though
02:48:55 <Bike> can't the spammers be lithuanian for once
02:49:59 <elliott> Jafet: are you sure you wanted to link me to that
02:50:21 <Jafet> You have now been linked to that.
02:52:38 <kmc> i think i'm p. cool with the 'new atheists'
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02:53:09 <kmc> at least I think pointing out the numerous ways religion harms people is better than being like 'well I don't believe personally but I respect your right to mutilate children"
02:53:20 <Bike> ok but have you seen dawkins's twitter feed
02:53:30 <kmc> i do think it's a shame that Dawkins is known mostly for this
02:53:38 <kmc> since I find his biology books a lot more interesting
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02:54:01 <Bike> honestly i wish there was a better way to be a popular biologist than yelling at creationists
02:54:19 <Sgeo> The RFC that defined JSON included a JSON parser with a security hole
02:54:29 <Jafet> You can also only be a popular physicist if you talk about THE UNIVERSE
02:54:37 <Bike> not that they don't deserve it but biology is pretty cool. even the stuff that isn't evolutionary!
02:54:41 <kmc> Sgeo: yep!
02:54:54 <kmc> biology is amazing
02:55:04 <Jafet> And a popular chemist if... well, I guess it's harder to be a popular chemist.
02:55:04 <kmc> just the number of incredible hacks that different critters use to get by
02:55:08 <Bike> for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3HcqGcXls4
02:55:21 <Bike> now in twin form
02:55:28 <Bike> Sgeo: is this the parser that consists of eval
02:55:30 <kmc> copumpkin: hm?
02:55:37 <copumpkin> you mentioned getting into huge trouble on twitter
02:55:51 <kmc> well I asked for more money at work and instead I got fired
02:55:57 <kmc> unclear how much these things were causally related
02:56:13 <kmc> the reasons the founders gave for firing me don't really make sense, and they refuse to elaborate
02:56:16 <kmc> I think I ranted a bit about it above
02:56:41 <Bike> Jafet: i think the popularist chemist i can think of is derek lowe who isn't that popular
02:57:07 <kmc> Bike: wtf frogs
02:57:15 <kmc> also did they just try that with every cell until it worked
02:57:19 <kmc> thanks copumpkin
02:57:35 <Bike> the original experiment was actually on salamanders
02:57:53 <Bike> also the lady investigator died in a fire before her thesis on it was published :/
02:58:33 <Bike> they were working off some older experiments, like one where a guy would kill part of an embryo with a hot needle (presumably because Why Not) and watched how it developed
02:58:48 <kmc> yeah... a lot of bio experiments are like "what happens if we break this part"
02:58:50 <Bike> except mysteriously if this half-embryo was next to a full embryo it would half-develop, but if it was separated it wouldn't
02:58:52 <copumpkin> kmc: you're always welcome back in the evil world of finance :P I don't get the impression that's really the direction you want to go in though
02:59:02 <kmc> copumpkin: it isn't really
02:59:07 <kmc> although i don't consider what you do evil
02:59:19 <kmc> in fact I don't consider HFT evil
02:59:20 <Bike> oh, copumpkin's the quant?
02:59:29 <kmc> well i don't know, what are you up to now
02:59:41 <kmc> I don't think HFT is intrinsically that bad, but it sucks smart people away from other things
02:59:51 <kmc> i dunno what I want to do next
02:59:55 <Bike> i don't know what a qual is.....
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03:03:47 <copumpkin> in the sense that we don't have a particularly mathematical approach to things
03:04:03 <Bike> so do you like analyze the stock market sociologically
03:04:06 <copumpkin> I don't really have much to do with the decision-making, be it math or not math
03:04:40 <copumpkin> it's macro, so looking at global tendencies, interest rates, exchange rates, political events, production of goods in different countries, things like that
03:05:51 <kmc> i remember reading about some fund that would follow around CEOs with private investigators
03:07:11 <copumpkin> don't think that's us, but it's hard to be sure
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03:16:02 <Lymia> A86 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08 A86 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:02 <Lymia> A87 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08 A87 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:02 <Lymia> A88 05 00 Bfd b0 01 05 ff 05 08 | A88 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:02 <Lymia> A89 05 B00 fd b0 01 05 ff 05 08 | A89 05 00 fd Bb0 01 05 ff 05 08
03:16:09 <Lymia> Anticipation, for some reason
03:16:11 <Lymia> Gets stuck doing nothing
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03:20:09 <copumpkin> what's it called when you write x : y :: a : b or whatever the local symbols for that are
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03:26:39 <kmc> it's like a thought with another thought's hat on
03:29:14 <Fiora> I remember those were like, a thing on the SAT or something?
03:29:51 <Bike> a is to b as f is to...
03:30:27 <Bike> A++ you win the SAT
03:30:36 <kmc> back in my day the SAT only had 1600 points
03:30:59 <Fiora> I think I took mine the year they changed it <_>
03:31:01 <Bike> back in my day everyone got their own day
03:31:02 <copumpkin> we had to take the SAT 2 writing if we wanted the shit that people get by default now
03:31:02 <Lymia> It's probably a parsing bug
03:31:22 <kmc> copumpkin speaks the truth
03:31:27 <kmc> truthpumpkin
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03:31:44 <kmc> Bike: back in your day there were only 365.25 people?
03:32:04 <Bike> well, that was before the gregorian reforms
03:32:13 <kmc> Gregor'ian reforms
03:32:16 <Bike> we pretty much just said the year ended whenever everyone agreed the year ended
03:32:22 <kmc> "fuck this year"
03:32:31 <kmc> vote by acclamation
03:32:48 <Bike> some years not everybody got a day, but in those years we were generally sick of the year anyway
03:32:54 <Bike> just had a longer year next if we needed it
03:44:29 <Sgeo> "Internet Explorer unconditionally falls back to HTML rendering, true to the letter of Tim Berner-Lee's original protocol drafts."
03:46:39 <Lymia> elliott, apparently
03:46:46 <Lymia> I had a parsing issue causing {} to parse as nothing
03:47:46 <Lymia> Because of my code structure, that translates to "()%x loops don't work"
03:47:58 <Lymia> http://paste.strictfp.com/37560/3f060be9c6ccce447ce1faff957b8c5f
03:48:38 <Sgeo> "Readers who found the handling of the formats discussed so far to be too sane for their tastes are in for a well-deserved treat."
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03:55:33 <mnoqy> Sgeo: what's the treat
03:55:53 <elliott> kmc: is your twitter account good
03:55:55 <Sgeo> XML-based documents
03:55:58 <kmc> i've seen better
03:56:11 <mnoqy> sometime i need to get around to finally deleting my twitter
03:56:14 <Sgeo> Browsers often determine the format based on their content, regardless of Content-Type headers
03:56:20 <Sgeo> Or even content below the top level tag
03:56:27 <elliott> i occasionally read a handful of twitters but i don't have an account i just check them because hey it's like five years too late to create a twitter account
03:56:55 <truepumpkin> elliott: hurry up and get a twitter account
03:57:17 <elliott> truepumpkin: but i have no friends!
03:57:57 <zzo38> Sgeo: It might make sense if it won't receive a Content-Type header. But, that is not the case.
03:58:16 <elliott> truepumpkin: do you use this nick to lie to people because people will believe it because of your nick
03:58:37 <kmc> Postel's Law is basically the worst thing ever for security
03:58:45 <mnoqy> what's postel's law here
03:58:59 <kmc> that whatever nonsense garbage data you get, you should try to interpret and process it in some way
03:59:05 <kmc> rather than just saying "fuck you"
03:59:16 <mnoqy> ah, yeah that's bad
03:59:57 <Fiora> is that like the reason why you can have HTML pages with 200 errors that display fine?
03:59:58 <kmc> welp this string of bytes might be an X11 Type3 font embedded in a Gopher header encoded as UTF-7, let's pass it off to a bunch of code nobody has tested in 15 years
04:00:04 <Fiora> while like, a C program with one error won't compile
04:00:48 <Jafet> A JPEG file that looks like HTML? Impossible
04:01:19 <Jafet> Though this is mainly because browser developers are on the side of website developers rather than browser users
04:01:35 <kmc> browser developers are on the side of advertising salespeople
04:02:36 <Jafet> Let's implement HTTP pipelining and disable it by default, and add a completely new protocol by google to the program
04:02:43 <Jafet> which is basically HTTP pipelining
04:03:03 <zzo38> Gopher doesn't have headers.
04:03:34 <Jafet> Do browsers actually implement gopher properly
04:03:37 <elliott> bam kmc's argument destroyed
04:03:40 <Jafet> They might have "headers"
04:03:41 <Sgeo> I understand the point of GIFAR now
04:03:54 <Sgeo> both a gif and a ar
04:05:09 <Sgeo> Upload to site that hosts images, make malicious page that treats it as an applet, retrieve people's cookies from image host, profit
04:05:41 <mnoqy> it's cute when you can rename something to have .gif extension and everything accepts it :-)
04:06:08 <Sgeo> Even if the image host gives Content-Type: image/gif or whatever, that header wll be ignored
04:06:17 <Sgeo> mnoqy, it really is a valid gif file I think
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04:07:15 <mnoqy> ~ yes but not everything checks for validity. or at least i remember in the past that's how it went ~
04:08:59 <zzo38> Some browsers implement gopher properly, some don't unless you have an extension installed. The file might have a header to indicate the format (if the type is said to be "I" then it is a picture file, and the header of the picture file can be used to determine the format, for example).
04:13:30 <Sgeo> Hey! How dare this book implies that I install Adobe Shockwave Player by accident!
04:13:35 <Sgeo> I need it for iSketch
04:29:09 <Lymia> With some of these bugs
04:29:11 <Lymia> I'd expect an outright crash
04:29:14 <Lymia> Instead of wrong behavior
04:32:27 <Lymia> elliott, (({{}})%y)%x is legal, right?
04:32:37 <Lymia> And the outermost {} is paired with the innermost ()
04:33:28 <elliott> it's at least uncommon I think
04:33:57 <Lymia> I know for a fact I'll have bad behavior then, at least
04:34:33 <Bike> has anyone tried building an alternate evaluation scheme in kernel? i'm thinking i might try some shitty WHNF
04:35:42 <zzo38> Do you think Z-machine interpreter in Famicom is reasonable?
04:35:50 <Bike> god no, but do it
04:36:47 <zzo38> Z-machine interpreter for GameBoy exists, even though GameBoy does not have a keyboard.
04:40:05 <zzo38> Might it work better on Famicom if Famicom has a keyboard? (The Famicom keyboard does not have ASCII codes 0x60 to 0x7E, but I have suggested a very simple way to correct that problem)
04:43:08 <kmc> which is that way
04:45:57 <zzo38> The Famicom keyboard uses the SHIFT to toggle bit4 of ASCII codes in range 0x20 to 0x3F. My suggestion is that codes 0x40 to 0x7F will be toggle bit5 when SHIFT key is pushed.
04:46:53 <zzo38> (The keyboard itself does not do this decoding; it only reads a button matrix to tell you what keys are pushed. The software that reads it must then decode it; this means that the decoder can easily be made whatever is helpful, and doesn't even necessarily need to be ASCII.)
05:12:30 <shachaf> truepumpkin: Hey, you're not following *me*!
05:12:36 <shachaf> What's so special about elliott?
05:12:57 <shachaf> Other than being the seriously best.
05:13:42 <shachaf> Why would I tweet when you wouldn't end up reading it?
05:13:45 <shachaf> It's like talking into the void.
05:14:35 <shachaf> OK, now I need a different excuse.
05:16:10 <shachaf> How about: elliott isn't following me.
05:16:28 <elliott> i hear you say more than enough
05:16:30 <shachaf> elliott is the seriously best mouse.
05:24:34 <Fiora> you should totally use tumblr instead
05:25:24 <shachaf> I have a Tumblr account too!
05:25:41 <shachaf> my tumblr account is too cool to be followed
05:26:03 <shachaf> Bike: I saw _The King and I_
05:26:30 <shachaf> imo i preferred _Anastasia (1956 film)_
05:26:42 <Bike> was that good?
05:27:00 <shachaf> why don't you watch it and tell me
05:28:10 <elliott> shachaf: you need the _ before the parens
05:28:22 <shachaf> elliott: no its part of the title........
05:28:34 <elliott> <shachaf> yesterday i saw _Anastasia_ (1956 film)
05:35:09 <Jafet> '''''Anastasia'''''
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06:46:15 <zzo38> Wikipedia says that you can encode intuitionistic logic into linear logic by (!A -o B). Is there a category of linear implication? Does it mean that a programming language using linear logic might have a comonad for normal functional programming?
06:46:54 <shachaf> zzo38: You should ask cmccann.
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06:58:22 <fizzie> Did you know that: [[The EFF is a left wing organization which has some of the same goals as the anti-government group “Anonymous” as well as the terrorist group “Wikileaks”.]]
06:58:31 <fizzie> (Any EFF members aka terrorists present?)
07:00:37 <Jafet> Why can't we have centrist terrorist groups
07:01:12 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
07:01:33 <Bike> (bla bla left/right doesn't even make sense anyway bla)
07:02:04 <elliott> more like up/DOWN am I right Bi ke its what the kids need .
07:02:13 <elliott> oh fuck dammit it's past 8
07:02:18 <Bike> vote up: we're ABOVE those fucks
07:02:24 <shachaf> elliott: have you considered oging to slelepe
07:02:38 <Bike> imo, go the fuck to sleep you goddamn embarassment
07:02:45 <elliott> you're the fucking embarrassment
07:02:53 <Jafet> @google go the fuck to sleep
07:02:54 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_the_Fuck_to_Sleep
07:02:54 <lambdabot> Title: Go the Fuck to Sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
07:02:57 <elliott> what bicycle wants its child bicycle to grow up subserviant to human shit like irc
07:02:59 <Bike> no it's you sorry
07:03:02 <elliott> probably real ashamed of that arm you got too
07:03:17 <Bike> irc wasn't invented by humans it was invented by swedes, dumbass
07:03:18 <elliott> "he's walys tried to fit in with the humans" -- bicycle parents trying to explain Bike's future bicycle rampage
07:03:36 <elliott> finnish people arent swedes who i agree arent 100%human
07:03:38 <Bike> and the arm was a gift! from my nephew!
07:04:01 <elliott> human-bike interbreeding......... the dire future we all share
07:04:09 <shachaf> how could a bicycle have a human nephew
07:04:09 <Jafet> Do irc bikes have irc handles
07:04:13 <Bike> well, mostly platypus, but yeah a bit. i mean where else would he get the ar.
07:04:47 <zzo38> I suppose they are terrorist, but "terrorist" is still, just the label they apply which is not as meaningful as they think it to be, and not like they claim it to be, it is just a kind of complaint the government makes rather than a real thing, I guess.
07:04:53 <Bike> Oh I see how it is. Y'all racists. First it's miscegenation with the African-descendent, then with the horse-descendent
07:04:59 <shachaf> zzo38: cmccann is in #haskell and other channels
07:05:05 <shachaf> He talks about linear logic a lot.
07:05:09 <shachaf> He does things with it in Haskell.
07:07:38 <shachaf> Ugh, I gotta line things up again.
07:07:53 <shachaf> How many characters do I get? 34?
07:08:15 <Bike> Now you see the importance of double-spacing after a full stop.
07:08:49 <shachaf> The importance of being an insufferable jerk?
07:09:33 <shachaf> (The joke is that people who double-space after a full stop are insufferable jerks.)
07:09:57 <Jafet> shachaf. . . . . .
07:10:30 <shachaf> I'd rather see three undertrumps after a discard of a Trebled Fromp.
07:10:34 <shachaf> Now that's something worthwhile.
07:10:52 <mnoqy> (?? ?????????????? ?)
07:10:54 <elliott> shachaf: wow are you calling mnoqy an insufferable jerk???
07:11:05 <shachaf> mnoqy: http://mimg.ugo.com/200902/19213/double-fannuci.jpg
07:11:17 <shachaf> elliott: no obv. mnoqy's ok........................................................
07:11:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1d/Zork_Zero_Double_Fanucci.png
07:11:52 <Bike> wow this game seem's hard
07:12:07 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey don't talk to the jester like that
07:12:18 <mnoqy> is the jester a jerk
07:12:24 <shachaf> spoilers the jester is actually ████████████████████████████████
07:12:40 <mnoqy> should i lay the hate on this jesterman
07:12:51 <shachaf> usually the jester is p. cool
07:12:56 <shachaf> but sometimes he's a total jerk
07:13:09 <shachaf> like the times when he appears out of nowhere and puts a clown nose on your nose
07:13:18 <shachaf> and then if you don't take it off within a few turns you suffocate to death
07:13:22 <mnoqy> that sounds like a jerk thing to do
07:13:31 <shachaf> jester more like jerkster am i right
07:14:02 <shachaf> Bike: Double Fanucci is pretty great.
07:14:05 <shachaf> Bike: You should learn it.
07:14:46 <shachaf> http://struckus.tripod.com/zork0_snarfen_game.jpg
07:15:52 <zzo38> "... (1) Does science seek the truth, even if the truth includes the existence of God? (2) Or does science only seek answers that first exclude any possibility that God is a part of the truth? A theory of our origins that eliminates the input of God is worthless if, in fact, God created everything." What is your opinion about this?
07:16:07 <shachaf> science does not seek truth
07:16:14 <zzo38> vos Savant says (1). My sister says (2). I say the question is wrong.
07:16:15 <Bike> "Boston bombings: Officer lost all blood but is expected to recover"
07:16:44 <Bike> I'm with shachaf on this one.
07:17:39 <zzo38> shachaf: Not because of that, though.
07:18:02 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you sell "i ♥ mnoqy" shirts
07:18:09 <mnoqy> i dont sell shirts
07:18:12 <Bike> elliott: http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-boston-bombings-mbta-officer-condition-20130421,0,6889893.story
07:18:24 <Bike> elliott: presumably they were like, replacing it as it came out.
07:18:25 <mnoqy> maybe someday i should set up a shirt shop
07:18:31 <shachaf> mnoqy: if i gave you a trillion dollars could i get a shirt
07:18:57 <Bike> if you gave mnoqy a trillion dollars you'd destroy the economy.
07:19:01 <mnoqy> his heart stopped and he lost his entire blood supply, but doctors and relatives on Sunday said he was emerging from sedation and expected to recover
07:19:05 <Bike> al.t get murdered by the secret service
07:20:24 <Bike> > sort "eqonomy"
07:22:39 <shachaf> care for a game of double fanucci
07:40:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17882
07:42:04 <shachaf> "A widow is a woman whose spouse has died, while a widower is a man whose spouse has died."
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07:43:09 <shachaf> This form is funny because in Hebrew it's only masculine but in English it says "Widow/er".
07:43:37 <Bike> yeah, that's how it goes. it's silly
07:47:47 <shachaf> elliott: "good "luck "with "that""""
07:50:16 <Jafet> Widowmaker should be gender neutral
07:50:29 <Jafet> I don't know about windowmaker though
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08:16:11 <lambdabot> *** "widow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:16:11 <lambdabot> n 1: a woman whose husband is dead especially one who has not
08:16:11 <lambdabot> remarried [syn: {widow}, {widow woman}]
08:16:11 <lambdabot> v 1: cause to be without a spouse; "The war widowed many women
08:16:31 <lambdabot> *** "widower" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
08:16:31 <lambdabot> n 1: a man whose wife is dead especially one who has not
08:16:31 <lambdabot> remarried [syn: {widower}, {widowman}]
08:16:36 <fizzie> (I kept typoing that as "windower".)
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11:00:33 <ais523> haha: I was reading http://blog.joda.org/2009/11/why-jsr-310-isn-joda-time_4941.html (by the author of JodaTime, a popular time handling library for Java) where he talks about its design flaws, and there are people in the comments telling him he's wrong and what he's identified as flaws actually aren't
11:03:20 <shachaf> kmc: would "spineless tagless g-machine" be a good name for a band
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11:52:25 <Jafet> When zsh sees xx $(yy)^I, it runs yy and tab completes on the output
11:53:24 <Jafet> So you can crash it with echo $(yes)^I
11:54:44 <Jafet> I'm afraid to use this, not because it will crash sometimes
11:55:16 <Jafet> but because it will make using bash even more unbearable
11:55:42 <shachaf> zsh is less bearable than bash for me.
11:55:57 <Jafet> rsync -e ssh bla/^I^I^I^I^I^I^I oh right this computer doesn't have zsh
11:56:38 <fizzie> What would a tab there do with zsh?
11:56:59 <Jafet> cp /usr/shrae/doc/^I^I^I^I oh right I forgot to beat the sysadmin into giving me zsh
11:57:18 <fizzie> I don't know what all those ^I's mean. :(
11:57:36 <fizzie> Yes, but what should happen!
11:57:43 <Jafet> Tab completion, obviously
11:58:04 <fizzie> Yes, but how? I mean, it must be something else than getting the list of possible completions.
11:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> in the first case it should expand bla/ into blancmange/ and then list the contents of blancmange, or somesuch
11:58:35 <Jafet> What comes after bla:/ is the name of a file on bla
11:58:46 <Jafet> zsh will connect to bla and list them
11:58:49 <fizzie> Jafet: There was no : in your example.
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11:58:53 <shachaf> bash completes remote ssh things for me just fine, with a :
11:58:59 <fizzie> Jafet: So that was quite confusing.
11:59:21 <fizzie> (And bash does complete remote things for me fine, too.)
11:59:56 <fizzie> (Would /usr/shrae/doc/ do some kind of a spelling fixup shrae -> share, then?)
11:59:58 <Jafet> Ok, I don't know what completions are provided by bash.
12:01:06 <shachaf> It came configured that way for me.
12:02:11 <fizzie> 26228 lines in /etc/bash_completion and files of /etc/bash_completion.d; it certainly came... configured, here, too.
12:03:19 <Jafet> Most of those are just program-specific completion rules
12:03:56 <Jafet> zsh reads those as well
12:04:24 <fizzie> But they're arbitrary bash code, aren't they
12:05:09 <fizzie> Reading them sounds nasty.
12:05:30 <Jafet> I suppose you could write some of them in the particular subset of bash which is not implemented the same way by zsh
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13:09:58 <Phantom_Hoover> im trapped in a place where irc only works for like 30 seconds
13:11:22 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: ok not forever
13:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile: alsa appears to have gone on strike or something
13:11:29 <shachaf> just until you leave that awful place
13:11:48 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: alt. run irc on a remote server and connect to that server with mosh
13:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't have a remote server i'm not a cool technowizard like you guys
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13:18:26 <shachaf> `run welcome Anickyan | sed s/dal/dahl/g
13:18:30 <HackEgo> Anickyan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dahl.net.)
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13:29:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wehlcohlme: not found
13:29:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wehlcome: not found
13:30:26 <Jafet> `run echo bin/we *
13:30:28 <HackEgo> bin/we bin canary etc factor hello hello.c ibin interps karma lib maze maze.c paste quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs Test.o wisdom
13:31:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: maze: not found
13:31:23 <HackEgo> maze: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped
13:31:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcohme: not found
13:31:34 <HackEgo> bash: bin/maze: No such file or directory
13:31:37 <HackEgo> Jahfeht: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
13:31:38 <HackEgo> bash: maze: command not found
13:32:00 <HackEgo> const unsigned long main[] = { 0xc7e68948c7ffff31, 0x24310f00b195e206, 0xd231f88902460001, 0xe9eb050f03b2 };
13:32:01 <shachaf> @ask Phantom_Hoover It's OK. You can stay. Come back!
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13:33:46 <FireFly> `run echo this is a test | h
13:34:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
13:38:00 <Jafet> `run objdump -D maze | sed -e '/maze/,/main>/ d'
13:38:02 <HackEgo> \ 400120:31 ff xor %edi,%edi \ 400122:ff c7 inc %edi \ 400124:48 89 e6 mov %rsp,%rsi \ 400127:c7 06 e2 95 b1 00 movl $0xb195e2,(%rsi) \ 40012d:0f 31 rdtsc \ 40012f:24 01 and $0x1,%al \ 400131:00 46 02 add %al,0x2
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13:44:05 <Jafet> `run objdump -D maze -M intel | sed -e '/maze/,/main>/ d' -e 's/^ \+[0-9a-f]\+:\s\+\([0-9a-f][0-9a-f] \)\+\s\+//'
13:44:07 <HackEgo> \ xor edi,edi \ inc edi \ mov rsi,rsp \ mov DWORD PTR [rsi],0xb195e2 \ rdtsc \ and al,0x1 \ add BYTE PTR [rsi+0x2],al \ mov eax,edi \ xor edx,edx \ mov dl,0x3 \ syscall \ jmp 400127 <main+0x7> \ ... \ \ Disassembly of section .comment: \ \ 0000000000000000 <.comment>: \ rex.RXB \ rex.XB \ rex.XB cmp spl,BY
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13:46:16 <fizzie> Just that the above ^ was quite a noisy sight.
13:46:36 <boily> sorry about that spurrious ^, sometimes my keyboard layout resets for no apparent reason.
13:49:17 <Jafet> You're right, that sed script should have been more reserved.
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14:00:43 <Jafet> Ok, I don't have the appropriate font for that maze
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14:07:27 <fizzie> You can tr it into /s and \s with not much loss of fidelity.
14:07:37 <fizzie> Assuming tr can deal with UTF-8. I suppose it can't.
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14:07:43 <fizzie> Well, maybe it can, who knows.
14:07:50 <fizzie> You can sed it into those things, at the very least.
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14:11:30 <Anickyan> Who here have ever created a brainfuck interpreter?
14:13:34 <Koen_> Anickyan: when entering here you have to go through two simple tasks
14:13:50 <Koen_> first task: write a brainfuck interpreter (or seventy brainfuck interpreters)
14:13:58 <Koen_> that's the easy task
14:14:00 <Anickyan> https://gist.github.com/Mads-Clausen/5434778
14:14:14 <Koen_> then comes second task: you have to solemnly swear that you will never do that again
14:14:49 <Koen_> and if you ever do that again, Phantom_Hoover will take care of you
14:14:55 <Koen_> you do NOT want Phantom_Hoover to take care of you
14:14:56 <Jafet> `run echo 'unsigned long const main[] = {0x8948c7ff48ff3148, 0x0f0080b7e406c7e6, 0x2468880043f2431, 0x50ff8894803b299, 0xedeb};' > maze.c && gcc maze.c -o maze && ./maze
14:15:04 <HackEgo> ䷎䷕䷢䷞䷢䷾䷘䷮䷳䷳䷂䷯䷽䷚䷉䷁䷧䷲䷲䷞䷙䷢䷔䷬䷟䷙䷬䷖䷞䷺䷕䷅䷺䷳䷀䷁䷡䷚䷾䷰䷚䷀䷊䷆䷭䷊䷇䷒䷷䷢䷨䷴䷡䷤䷍䷵䷌䷄䷜䷢䷬䷆䷾䷬䷹䷙䷻䷢䷏䷕䷣䷧䷭䷧䷎䷷䷌䷨䷜䷨䷫䷔䷵䷤䷒䷡䷯䷌䷈䷟䷰䷵䷤䷠䷅䷹䷚䷐䷀䷌䷃䷾䷒䷝䷕䷤䷨䷜䷈䷑䷯䷭䷠䷚䷼
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14:16:25 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:17:06 <ThatOtherPerson> Koen_: what happens when Phantom_Hoover takes care of you?
14:17:28 <Koen_> you should ask him, I guess
14:17:32 <Koen_> or maybe YOU SHOULDN'T
14:17:33 <Jafet> Make one mistake, and you end up having to take care of people forever
14:18:06 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: well I try to read every new article on your blog to learn more about you
14:19:30 <HackEgo> 00000000 e4 b7 81 e4 b7 83 e4 b7 80 e4 b7 8b e4 b7 8f e4 |................| \ 00000010 b7 8c e4 b7 ae e4 b7 ad e4 b7 90 e4 b7 a7 e4 b7 |................| \ 00000020 aa e4 b7 83 e4 b7 af e4 b7 82 e4 b7 9f e4 b7 8d |................| \ 00000030 e4 b7 a2 e4 b7 b8 e4 b7 82 e4 b7 b9 e4 b7 8e e4 |................| \ 00000040 b7 8f e4 b7 90 e
14:19:52 <Jafet> Do you feel lost? Good, the maze is working.
14:20:07 <Koen_> for some reason I felt hl-ed by your maze
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14:49:05 <boily> ah, the fresh feeling of a new kernel!
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15:22:41 <Jafet> `fetch sprunge.us/hbDf
15:22:43 <HackEgo> 2013-04-22 15:22:42 URL:http://sprunge.us/hbDf [3795] -> "hbDf" [1]
15:22:56 <HackEgo> ... bottle of claret for you if I'd realised. I'd forgotten all about it, George, I'm sorry.
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15:23:16 <Jafet> `run tr A-Z a-z<hbDf | tr -d "[],.<>+'-" | sed -e "s/its alright/</g" -e 's/turn me on dead man/>/g' -e 's/number \(9\|nine\)/+/g' -e "s/if you\(ll\|ve\|d\) become naked/-/g" -e 's/the beatles/./g' -e 's/paul is dead/,/g' -e 's/revolution 1/[/g' -e 's/revolution 9/]/g'|tac|tac | tr -cd '[],.<>+-'
15:23:17 <HackEgo> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<-
15:23:32 <Jafet> ...that's disappointing
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15:30:49 <Koen_> turned on by dead man
15:30:56 <Koen_> better than raping a mexican monkey, I guess
15:36:31 <Jafet> Unless that monkey's gone to heaven
15:41:52 <kmc> Jafet: the source for the maze program is at https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/5364432
15:43:49 <Jafet> If you put code in main, you need to zero out the registers
15:44:02 <Jafet> Actually you also "need to" in _start but linux does that for you
15:44:16 <boily> ghaaaargh! my eyes!
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16:32:57 <Taneb> How come if I see a maths question on Tumblr I can't resist doing it but I have a whole pile of overdue maths homework of my own that I haven't even started
16:33:30 <ais523> Taneb: likely to do with how much it engages your brain
16:33:48 <Taneb> ais523: but it was a really boring maths question
16:34:03 <Taneb> "Sketch the graph 'y = (x - 2)^3 - 6(x - 2)^2 + 9(x- 2)'"
16:34:06 <kmc> Jafet: you only need to zero them out if you're assuming they're zero...
16:34:56 <ais523> Taneb: there are webapps to do that
16:37:06 <Jafet> kmc: or if you syscall
16:37:34 <kmc> i'm required to zero out registers that aren't used by that syscall's arguments?
16:38:02 <kmc> boily: is that your response to looking at the code or to running it? :D
16:38:52 <Jafet> You might need to zero out rax
16:39:50 <kmc> rax holds the syscall number
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16:40:10 <Jafet> Half of rax isn't zeroed out, so rax probably isn't a valid syscall number
16:40:16 <Fiora> rdtsc clobbers rax, then shr eax, 17 guarantees the top of rax is 0
16:40:36 <kmc> there's an 'mov %edi, %eax' right before the syscall
16:40:49 <kmc> %edi is initialized to one and never changed
16:41:04 <Fiora> ahhh. I missed that
16:41:05 <Jafet> rdtsc writes eax:edx
16:41:08 <Fiora> that'll clear the top too
16:41:11 <kmc> the code is kind of obfuscated because I was trying to use the minimum number of bytes
16:41:52 <Jafet> mov doesn't clear the high bits
16:42:19 <kmc> yes it does
16:42:21 <Jafet> Unless this instruction set is crazier than I thought
16:42:35 <Fiora> that's the thing with the 32-bit -> 64-bit extension
16:42:39 <kmc> storing to the lower 32 bits of a 64-bit register clears the upper 32 bits
16:42:48 <kmc> this is supposed to facilitate using 32-bit pointers in 64-bit code, maybe
16:42:55 <Fiora> 32-bit instructions clear the top 32-bits that they don't use, I think they did it that way because of data dependency
16:43:16 <Fiora> since most code uses 32-bit registers for most of its work and having to explicitly clear the top 32 bits would be frustrating
16:43:39 <Fiora> (they really really hate it when you do things like, modify ax, and then modify al, and read ax, and read ah, and modify al, and read ax, and...)
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16:44:18 <Fiora> basically they did exactly the opposite of what happened with 16bit -> 32bit -_-
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16:45:15 <Jafet> `run echo 'main() { asm("xor %edi, %edi\n" "inc %edi\n" "mov %rsp, %rsi\n" "go: movl $0xb195e2, (%rsi)\n" "rdtsc\n" "and $1, %al\n" "add %al, 2(%rsi)\n" "mov %edi, %eax\n" "xor %edx, %edx\n" "mov $3, %dl\n" "syscall\n" "jmp go"); }' > maze.c && gcc maze.c -o maze && ./maze
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16:45:22 <HackEgo> ╲╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╱╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╱╲╲╲╲╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╱╲╱╱╲╱╱╱╲╲╲╱╲
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16:46:54 <Fiora> kmc: oh that reminds me, I think still the silliest consequence of that thing
16:47:00 <Fiora> is that "xchg eax, eax" is no longer a nop
16:48:40 <Fiora> and in the original x86, "xchg eax, eax" happened to be "0x90"
16:48:46 <Fiora> and was used as a nop instruction
16:48:58 <Fiora> but in x86_64 it doesn't work because it clears the top 32 bits of RAX so it suddenly doesn't do nothing anymore!
16:49:10 <Fiora> (but nop is still 0x90. it's just different now.)
16:49:22 <kmc> Jafet: 0x90 is still a NOP but it's a special case in the encoding now
16:49:49 <Jafet> So did they encode xchg eax, eax another way
16:50:41 <Jafet> By the way, cqd is probably the shortest way to clear rdx
16:52:08 <Fiora> or cqo? that weird one
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16:53:19 <Jafet> But in 64-bit mode, wouldn't cdq also clear rdx
16:53:35 <Jafet> x86 should be on the wiki
16:53:45 <Fiora> ummm.... cdq would set all bits in edx equal to bit 31 of eax, I think
16:53:50 <Fiora> and zero the top 32 bits of rdx
16:54:22 <FireFly> ...what is cdq a mnemnoic for?
16:54:38 <kmc> convert doubleword to quadword?
16:54:45 <Fiora> it's a sign extend thing, I think?
16:55:12 <kmc> gas / AT&T syntax calls it "cltd"
16:55:14 <Fiora> cbw does AL -> AX, cwde does AX -> EAX, cdqe does eax -
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16:55:50 <Fiora> and then CWD does AX->DX:AX
16:56:04 <Fiora> and CDQ EAX->EDX:EAX and CQO RAX->RDX:RAX
16:56:13 <Fiora> geez there's more of these than I remembered
16:56:29 <Jafet> Enjoy the power of octwords
16:56:35 <Fiora> I think most commonly they're seen used before divides? like since IDIV is (EDX:EAX / REG)
16:56:42 <Fiora> but mostly you just want to do EAX/REG
16:56:47 <Fiora> so you do CDQ, then IDIV
16:56:57 <Fiora> at least I think I remember that being like the textbook example thing
16:57:23 <fizzie> They encode xchg eax, eax as 87 c0 (aka using the XCHG r/m32, r32 (or I guess the XCHG r32, r/m32 form if you like) encoding, instead of the 90+rw XCHG EAX, r32 special case.
16:57:28 <Jafet> And here I thought it was just to make linux syscall golfing easier
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16:57:39 <Jafet> I should read this textbook
16:57:43 <fizzie> I got my parens all confused there.
16:57:43 <kmc> but we also have movslq and whatever.....
16:57:53 <Fiora> fizzie: I think it looks like the "special case" is now xchg RAX, r64?
16:58:11 <Fiora> if I'm reading the intel manual thing righgt
16:58:32 <fizzie> Fiora: REX.W + 90+rd is what XCHG RAX, r64 is encoded with.
16:58:51 <fizzie> The default operand size is still mostly 32 bits if you don't have a REX.W in place, after all.
16:58:52 <Fiora> oh I'm not reading it right
16:59:46 * Fiora is trying to find where the manual actually mentioned the nop collision thing >_<
17:01:04 <Fiora> either I'm wrong or um, it doesn't even mention this in the section on XCHG ~_~
17:01:24 <fizzie> You are expected to know it. :p
17:01:41 <Fiora> yeah, I'm just like. wow they just siloently redefined it
17:02:50 <boily> kmc: from running it.
17:03:08 <fizzie> Fiora: FWIW, AMD manual is very explict about it.
17:03:28 <fizzie> "The x86 architecture commonly uses the XCHG EAX, EAX instruction (opcode 90h) as a one-byte
17:03:31 <fizzie> NOP. In 64-bit mode, the processor treats opcode 90h as a true NOP only if it would exchange rAX
17:03:35 <fizzie> with itself. Without this special handling, the instruction would zero-extend the upper 32 bits of RAX,
17:03:38 <fizzie> and thus it would not be a true no-operation."
17:03:51 <fizzie> (In XCHG's description page.)
17:04:20 <Fiora> nice!! maybe I should use the AMD ones instead
17:04:35 <fizzie> They're not always as thorough as the Intel ones.
17:04:57 <fizzie> I mean, the PDF is just 474 pages! Who wants to get caught with a manual that thin!
17:05:21 <Fiora> they probably also don't have any instructions AMD hasn't implemented yet, I'd guess
17:05:26 <Fiora> (then again Intel wouldn't have XOP and stuff)
17:05:31 <fizzie> (This was a revision from 2007, and it's just the "Volume 3: General-Purpose and System Instructions", but still.)
17:05:41 <fizzie> I think they have somewhere around 5 volumes.
17:06:04 <fizzie> 1 being the same as Intel's 1; 2 being Intel's 3 (the system programming stuff); 3-5 being the instruction references.
17:06:22 <fizzie> 3 for what I mentioned, 4 for MMX, 5 for SSE. Or something vaguely like that.
17:06:31 <Fiora> do they have AVX yet?
17:06:34 <fizzie> x87 floating-point also went somewhere.
17:06:36 <Fiora> since, I mean, the bulldozer nominally supports it
17:07:05 <fizzie> Maybe I should go fetch a new set and check. I mean, 2007.
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17:07:21 <Fiora> yeah, stuff has sort of happened
17:07:34 <fizzie> There's at least a separate "New “Bulldozer” and “Piledriver” Instructions Guide", the latest in the list of specific guides.
17:08:09 <fizzie> I got it the wrong way around, volume 4 is "128-bit and 256 bit media instructions", and volume 5 is the one with "64-Bit Media and x87 Floating-Point Instructions".
17:08:15 <Fiora> I'm guessing that mostly translates to AVX and BMI1 unless I'm missing another letter salad thing
17:08:28 <fizzie> Latest versions of the manuals are from December 2011, so it probably wouldn't have AVX instructions in it.
17:10:03 <fizzie> The document that the web page says is from "12/13/2011" has Revision History entries from September 2012 in it.
17:10:31 <fizzie> Anything past December 2011 is just "corrected X", though, so maybe bugfixes don't count.
17:11:41 <fizzie> The manual does speak of VEX prefixes, wasn't that an AVX thing?
17:11:58 <Fiora> It was used for xop and BMI and stuff too
17:12:22 <fizzie> Oh, there it is, the December 2010 changelog entry.
17:12:30 <fizzie> "Complete revision and reformat accommodating 128-bit and 256-bit media
17:12:30 <fizzie> instructions. Includes revised definitions of legacy SSE, SSE2, SSE3,
17:12:30 <fizzie> SSE4.1, SSE4.2, and SSSE3 instructions, as well as new definitions of
17:12:30 <fizzie> extended AES, AVX, CLMUL, FMA4, and XOP instructions.
17:12:35 <fizzie> Very future-ready thinking.
17:13:44 <kmc> too many fucking instructions
17:13:59 <fizzie> For some reason AES-NI is also part of the "128-Bit and 256-Bit Media Instructions" volume, though an appendix of it. (I... guess the number of bits is sort of appropriate, at least.)
17:14:38 <kmc> fizzie: it uses SSE registers too
17:15:00 <kmc> if you didn't see them already, here are some simple AES-NI example programs I wrote: https://github.com/kmcallister/aesni-examples
17:15:27 <Bike> wow elisp has a shitload of special forms
17:15:29 <kmc> sadly it's a bit more complicated than "do AES here"
17:15:55 <Bike> do i even want to know why "with-output-to-temp-buffer" is special cased...
17:16:08 <kmc> elisp is the worst lisp
17:16:39 <Bike> clearly i should rewrite emacs in kernel
17:16:59 <Bike> «A Lisp macro is a list whose CAR is `macro'.» god
17:19:46 <Jafet> What about autolisp
17:20:34 <elliott> Bike: haha what is that from
17:21:21 <fizzie> Ooh, Yle ("Finnish BBC") just made their own channels watchable live in the interwebs. (Probably geoip-limited into Finland.)
17:21:35 <Bike> (append '(lambda (x)) (list (list '+ (* 3 4) 'x))) => a function
17:22:03 <elliott> fizzie: it gives me an error
17:22:17 <Bike> (funcall (append '(lambda (x)) (list (list '+ (* 3 4) 'x))) 9) => 21
17:22:25 <elliott> kokeile ladata sivu y(?)u(?)destaan.
17:22:38 <fizzie> "A connection error happened", roughly translated.
17:22:42 <elliott> 1) Internet-yhteydessä on ongelma (esim?langaton y?teys katkeaa hetkellisesti).
17:22:53 <elliott> these ?s are where the loading spinnre thing obscrues the letters
17:22:57 <fizzie> "Try reloading the page." Yeah, I don't think that's going to help.
17:23:05 <fizzie> It's "uudestaan", but okays.
17:23:16 <elliott> 2) Käytät palvelua ulkomalia, ja ohjelman k(?)atseluoik?us on rajattu vain Suomeen.
17:23:27 <fizzie> Ah, that's the "you're not in Finland!" rule.
17:23:49 <elliott> can I like, proxy through you
17:23:55 <elliott> finnish tv sounds amazing!
17:23:56 <fizzie> I suppose it has to do with copyrights.
17:24:04 <Bike> i hear copyrights r bad
17:24:46 <Bike> In the `double-property' function, we did not quote the `lambda' form. This is permissible, because a `lambda' form is "self-quoting": evaluating the form yields the form itself.
17:25:13 <elliott> anyone know any other good dotty type things in compose key
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17:25:17 <Bike> (car (lambda (x) x)) => lambda, oh my god
17:26:03 <Bike> oh good it says "true compiled code" is machine code
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17:26:49 <Bike> is it swedish for "shitty"
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17:45:13 <Jafet> `run echo 'const long main[]={7957687918238111208,2334956356649383027,8880356687520293229,13906764017533270909,1419365910561212297,2626879827020416271,16736655261603120681,17579598881254060795,1623775261490201216,5242470257800545608,1149026244854305933,14731853813082619653,194239108057989552,837530158351,};' >q.c && gcc q.c -o q && rm q.c
17:45:18 <HackEgo> q.c:1:80: warning: integer constant is so large that it is unsigned \ q.c:1: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90 \ q.c:1:141: warning: integer constant is so large that it is unsigned \ q.c:1: warning: this decimal constant is unsigned only in ISO C90 \ q.c:1:162: warning: integer constant is so large that it is unsigned \ q.
17:45:33 <HackEgo> const long main[]={7957687918238111208,2334956356649383027,8880356687520293229,13906764017533270909,1419365910561212297,2626879827020416271,16736655261603120681,17579598881254060795,1623775261490201216,5242470257800545608,1149026244854305933,14731853813082619653,194239108057989552,837530158351,};
17:47:28 <FreeFull> Even if rather architecture-specific
17:47:56 <FreeFull> Bike: I tried (car (lambda (x) x)) and it works in neither clisp nor racket
17:48:15 <Jafet> It only works in a real lisp like elisp
17:48:28 <Jafet> clisp "hides too much under the hood"
17:48:44 <ais523> also how do you take the car of a lambda?
17:48:54 <ais523> that isn't a cons cell, that's a function
17:49:03 <Jafet> conses all the way down
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17:49:24 <Jafet> Well until you hit the elisp interpreter which is in C
17:49:34 <kmc> some lisps represent functions as lists
17:49:45 <kmc> particularly dynamically scoped lisps, where you don't need to also remember an environment
17:49:49 <ais523> hmm.. if the car is somehow referring to itself
17:49:53 <ais523> that reminds me of Overload a lot
17:49:54 <AnotherTest> so... this 19 year old food trader took down belgium.be using Low Orbit Ion Canon... great security there
17:49:57 <ais523> where you could pull off similar tricks
17:50:20 <ais523> one of the commands in Overload gave you a pointer to itself
17:50:23 <ais523> I forget what it was called
17:50:25 <Jafet> Why does belgium.be need security
17:50:36 <ais523> but it was quite good for writing quines, as you could guess
17:50:40 <Bike> FreeFull: why in god's name would that work in a sane lisp
17:50:53 <AnotherTest> Jafet: because it's our government’s central website
17:51:05 <Bike> ais523: uncompiled functions in emacs are actually conses
17:51:11 <Jafet> That doesn't answer the question
17:51:16 <FreeFull> (car '(lambda (x) x)) works as expected
17:51:41 <AnotherTest> (not that they have any though, you have a point there)
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17:52:00 <Jafet> But they're not the luxembourgian government
17:52:02 <ais523> FreeFull: and returns 'lambda?
17:52:13 <Bike> ais523: so you can write the identity function as (list 'lambda '(x) x)
17:52:15 <ais523> (this is me testing to see if I remember Lisp syntax and semantics correctly)
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17:52:51 <ais523> Bike: so what's the difference between list and eval? anything?
17:53:27 <Bike> ais523: you don't understand. in elisp the list (lambda (x) x) is used as an interpreted function. the list (+ 4 5) is still that list, not 9.
17:53:38 <Jafet> An unimportant part, evidently
17:53:54 <ais523> Bike: aha, they're the same for lists starting with lambda, specifically
17:53:57 <Bike> (eval (list 'lambda '(x) x)) is still the identity function, because lambda is basically an extended quote in uncompiled elisp
17:54:17 <Jafet> Is there compiled elisp now
17:54:30 <Bike> Jafet: it's had a byte compiler for like deaces.
17:54:45 <Bike> (it's probably not very good)
17:54:48 <ais523> so why does that car thing work?
17:55:01 <Bike> which car thing?
17:55:02 <ais523> I'd expect (car (lambda (x) x)) to return 'lambda given the information about elisp so far
17:55:13 <Jafet> Does this mean that using loic on belgium is like... a heart attack
17:56:25 <fizzie> ais523: It was mentioned why it works.
17:56:39 <fizzie> ais523: "This is permissible, because a `lambda' form is "self-quoting": evaluating the form yields the form itself."
17:57:01 <ais523> from the conversation, I thought that (car (lambda (x) x)) would be '(car (lambda (x) x))
17:57:12 <ais523> but I can't think of a semantics insane enough that that owuld work
17:58:04 <ais523> Overload had an uncar operator, by the way
17:58:27 <ais523> you gave it a pointer to an element of a list, and it gave you the entire list
17:58:53 <Bike> also what if the same thing is in multiple lists
17:59:00 <ThatOtherPerson> In my Lisp interpreter, (car (lambda (x) x)) causes an error
17:59:04 <ais523> actually I believe a restricted version of that made it into Underload
17:59:20 <ais523> Jafet: the language Underload is a tarpit of
17:59:35 <ais523> it was never fully specified, I kept changing my mind about things
17:59:42 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: I think it was established that it needs to be a real lisp, like elisp.
17:59:47 <ais523> although it was notable for combining features that probably shouldn't be combined
17:59:58 <fizzie> "Error: (car) bad argument type: #<procedure (? x)>" <- that's not what a real lisp would say!
18:00:27 <fizzie> (Admittedly it was from a Scheme interpreter, so that was obvious.)
18:01:10 <Bike> slow LIKE A LISP INTERPRETER!! Oh man burn
18:01:33 <elliott> Bike: what the fuck is up with markov's principle, man
18:01:36 <ais523> probably the most eso part of Overload was the pointers
18:02:03 <Bike> oh boy the other markov
18:02:51 <Bike> yeah, the one had a son.
18:02:52 <ais523> Jafet: if you're interested I can try to dig up a half-complete interpreter or two
18:03:09 <ais523> there's one in Perl and one in C++, which use very different methods of handling the pointers, although I think they're mostly semantically the same?
18:03:11 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/c/8/e/c8e611b37d8d4536e513f5a750fc75d6.png using my math knowledge i can determine that this shit is wack, elliott
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18:05:53 <Bike> welcome to intuitionism!
18:06:44 <elliott> wait it's not the same markov. fuck
18:06:47 <ais523> thanks UK keyboard for actually having a ¬ key, even if it basically never comes up
18:07:02 <Bike> elliott: it's his son, imo they're basically the same?
18:07:26 <Jafet> Markov Markoviyich
18:07:38 <Bike> the ¬ key is indispensible for faces, such as ¬_¬
18:07:40 <ion> “US International (AltGr dead keys)” has ¬, too.
18:08:14 <Jafet> I have now mapped ¬ to ^V
18:08:15 -!- augur has joined.
18:08:20 <Bike> so speaking of nothing can someone quickly tell me what a "linearly separable function" is because i'm feeling pretty dumb right now
18:09:40 <Bike> that's a mean thing to do to a function
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18:13:04 <boily> Bike: that's a function that can be expressed as a linear combination of two (or more) other functions: f(x) = a * g(x) + b * h(x)
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18:16:46 <zzo38> Did you make the Lisp interpreter? I don't know a lot of Lisp; do you know of MDL and/or ZIL?
18:17:03 <FreeFull> Be hip, write a lisp interpreter in haskell
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18:25:45 <Phantom_motnahP> fungot: are you going to be hip and write a lisp interpreter in Haskell?
18:25:45 <fungot> Phantom_motnahP: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you.
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18:34:17 <Taneb> Well, my Latin teacher has just resigned
18:35:34 <Taneb> I think it's due to illness
18:35:40 <mnoqy> what happens to latin class
18:35:42 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
18:36:06 <elliott> maybe it's a latin scandal
18:36:52 <Taneb> Also, there's a new person in my latin class
18:37:07 <Taneb> Further skewing the already dangerously warped gender ratio
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18:46:55 <tromp_> http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp-in-haskell/blaise_src.zip is a lisp written in haskell
18:47:56 <Taneb> Today's Freefall had a great punchline
18:50:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:55:05 <Taneb> BUT THIS MEANS NOTHING WITHOUT A LATIN TEACHER
18:55:59 -!- augur has joined.
19:08:58 <Taneb> But how can I be a latin teacher when I have so much to learn
19:09:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:10:18 <Taneb> What about the latvians
19:11:55 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
19:13:14 <Taneb> What about the Edinburghians
19:13:49 <Phantom___Hoover> Taneb you can't just name random places on the off chance they speak -- Phantom_motnahP WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU
19:13:59 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WZZARzpckw splode
19:15:06 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
19:15:12 -!- Phantom_motnahP has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:15:24 <elliott> wait that wasn't actually ph?
19:15:54 <elliott> probably anothertset he does annoying things like that a lot
19:16:16 <elliott> or... ThatOtherPerson? god I can't keep track of all these new people!!
19:16:26 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover wins civility award 2013 for 100th time in a row
19:16:35 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: we are trying to figure out who logged in as ph
19:16:40 <elliott> ok it's someone from miami
19:16:45 <elliott> who the hell would be in miami...
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19:18:41 <mnoqy> what all did motnahp say
19:18:56 <Phantom___Hoover> 18:25:45: <Phantom_motnahP> fungot: are you going to be hip and write a lisp interpreter in Haskell?
19:18:56 <fungot> Phantom___Hoover: yes, it's been awhile prometheus! tastes like chicken! yes. this is the mayor's education center!
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19:37:53 <Fiora> he needs a lot of hugs :<
19:38:01 <Fiora> s/needs/deserves/, even
19:39:58 <kmc> at least I got a fun new toy today
19:40:01 <kmc> software defined radio
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19:42:24 <Bike> oh it's... a weird thing
19:43:07 <elliott> it's definitely a radio station kmc is running on his computer.
19:43:21 <Bike> like i said, a weird thing
19:43:25 <Bike> radio free keegan
19:43:25 <ThatOtherPerson> Apparently it's a radio where most of the work normally done by hardware is done by software
19:43:29 <kmc> it's a radio that can be tuned through a wide range of frequencies, which sends raw amplitude / phase samples to a computer
19:43:39 <kmc> and then the computer can perform whatever decoding / demodulating you need
19:43:49 <kmc> so it can listen to a lot of different kinds of analog and digital transmissions
19:44:12 <kmc> in this case the hardware is a cheap USB TV tuner dongle that turns out to have the appropriate hardware under the hood
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19:45:06 <Bike> good ol' dongles
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19:47:25 <kmc> so far I can use all this equipment to... listen to commercial FM radio
19:47:31 <kmc> which is mostly commercials and bad music
19:47:36 <kmc> money well spent I say
19:47:53 <kmc> i'm running some script to compile all of GNU Radio and a bunch of other nonsense and we'll see what I can do then
19:48:01 <Bike> imo you should start a talk radio station
19:48:08 <Bike> really get on those lizard people's case
19:49:02 <elliott> kmc: when can i listen to kmc radio
19:49:33 <zzo38> Can it play AM radio?
19:49:38 <kmc> zzo38: I think so
19:50:18 <zzo38> Can it play weather band, air traffic control, police band, etc?
19:50:58 <Vorpal> Sound on Linux is such a mess. :/
19:53:52 <kmc> zzo38: think so
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19:54:36 <ion> I think police radio is encrypted here.
19:54:44 <Taneb> I know it isn't here
19:57:07 <ThatOtherPerson> I know for sure that there's military, there's this guy with a machine gun who's always in my school's parking lot
19:58:46 <ThatOtherPerson> My school is on the grounds of the US Consulate, so we're fairly well guarded
19:59:09 <Taneb> My mum went to school for a bit in an Italian school in Pakistan
20:00:04 <kmc> no luck tuning AM radio with the simple software I have
20:00:30 <kmc> i might also have the wrong kind of antenna
20:02:15 <Vorpal> Anyone know if Arduino supports "proper" C? As opposed to that Sketch thingy. I'm looking for a device for running a small embedded software and I'm not thrilled by what I have seen of the IDE. I would just prefer a standard setup using make (or tup probably) with non-hosted C.
20:02:41 <kmc> i can help you make it go
20:02:56 <Vorpal> I don't have a device yet, I'm evaluating my options currently.
20:03:16 <Vorpal> kmc, is it hard to make it work?
20:03:17 <kmc> i write C code and compile it with avr-gcc and upload it with avrdude
20:03:19 <kmc> no it's easy
20:03:41 <kmc> usually I use a small shell script rather than a makefile, there's no need for separate compilation or anything
20:03:44 <Vorpal> Hm, the AVR has no MMU though
20:03:49 <kmc> if the whole program fits in a few kB ;P
20:04:09 <kmc> it's a tiny embedded processor
20:04:13 <Vorpal> It would habe been neat to write a small RTOS for this, but meh, that IS kind of overkill
20:04:22 <boily> the AVR has definitely no MMU at all. *grmbl*
20:04:23 <kmc> even moderately powerful ARM microcontrollers don't always have a MMU
20:04:29 <kmc> it's just not needed for embedded stuff
20:04:51 <kmc> Arduinos are kind of expensive, but the raw AVR chip is like $4
20:04:55 <kmc> and you can get smaller ones for $2
20:05:12 <Vorpal> I do need a board for it though, I'm pretty terrible at soldering.
20:05:19 <kmc> only one way to get better
20:05:30 <kmc> building your own AVR breakout boards from scratch is pointless
20:05:37 <boily> Vorpal: get a breadboard and a teensy.
20:05:38 <Vorpal> Yeah, destroying AVR is not the way go ;P
20:05:49 <kmc> you can find cheaper AVR-based boards than Arduino
20:05:57 <kmc> some have a software-only USB stack
20:06:02 <kmc> Arduino is fine though
20:06:05 * boily hollers with full pulmonary force: TEEEEENSYYYYY!
20:06:09 <Vorpal> kmc, any hardware debug in Aurduino?
20:06:33 <Vorpal> kmc, I used a hardware JTAG debugger with AVR at university before. Worked well.
20:07:17 <Vorpal> Think it was called the AVR Dragon
20:07:42 <kmc> not that i've used
20:08:05 <Vorpal> wow those are kind of expensive
20:08:26 <Vorpal> kmc, what about emulation?
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20:08:47 <Vorpal> I'm not thrilled by the idea of not being able to debug the thing
20:09:10 <kmc> i usually debug by sending data back over serial
20:09:12 <kmc> it's not the best
20:09:15 <kmc> i haven't used any emulator
20:10:00 <Vorpal> So maybe going for an ARM based board and using a real time Linux patch set would be less painful, though more expensive.
20:10:06 <Vorpal> At least I could use gdb on that.
20:10:48 <Vorpal> I wonder what (if any) real time linux distros there is for the RPi for example...
20:10:52 <pikhq> Hmm. Might be fun playing with software-defined radio.
20:11:01 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure my tuner card will work for it.
20:11:35 <pikhq> Ludicrously old TV tuner card with a BT878.
20:11:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, what are you doing?
20:11:53 <pikhq> Works just fine; last used it yesterday.
20:11:59 <Vorpal> )I have that in my phone)
20:12:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Thinking about maybe using it for software-defined radio.
20:12:08 <pikhq> That's a TV tuner card.
20:12:17 <Vorpal> what do you mean by "software defined radio"?
20:12:35 <pikhq> Basically, where you use hardware to tune a signal and do all other processing in software.
20:13:01 <Vorpal> would a TV tuner work for that? Don't usually decode on the board.
20:13:23 <pikhq> Some do. This particularly old one is an ADC and a tuner.
20:14:50 <Vorpal> what frequency range does it support?
20:14:52 <kmc> i think with this DVB TV dongle it's in some debug mode
20:15:06 <kmc> god bless hw engineers for leaving that stuff in
20:15:20 <Vorpal> kmc, did you want that mode or not?
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20:15:40 <pikhq> Not sure what the range is, aside from the obvious (TV signal frequencies in all countries)
20:15:48 <kmc> i mean that's the mode that lets it function as an SDR
20:16:00 <Vorpal> Software-defined radio
20:16:07 <pikhq> (... yes, all. This thing actually tunes PAL. Wheeee.)
20:16:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, PAL is most common after all, so that makes sense
20:16:28 <pikhq> Sadly, I don't have an antenna for it.
20:16:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Over-the-air there's not a single PAL.
20:16:49 <pikhq> There's like a dozen OTA PAL variants.
20:16:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, not an antenna for PAL or not an antenna for it at all?
20:16:56 <pikhq> Not an antenna at all.
20:17:09 <pikhq> I'm using it for composite display.
20:18:28 <pikhq> The difference between the different PAL variants is basically just the frequency of the color and audio carrier, and the alotted channel bandwidth.
20:18:34 <pikhq> With different band plans.
20:18:55 <pikhq> Well, and PAL-M, which is friggin' weird.
20:19:03 <pikhq> NTSC with PAL color.
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20:22:07 <Vorpal> Wait, they redesigned kernel.org?
20:22:42 <Vorpal> On my screen that font is pretty ugly and blurry
20:23:05 <Vorpal> "Oxygen" is the font, ugh
20:23:28 <pikhq> kmc: I suppose you could do silly tricks with the FM signals. Like, say, pull in the random weird subcarrier services.
20:24:08 <elliott> oh no kernel.org's font has changed...............
20:24:33 <Bike> is it comic sans
20:24:36 <olsner> there went all hope of linux on the desktop
20:25:06 <Taneb> Bike: the font of Simon Peyton-Jones?
20:25:34 <Bike> https://plus.google.com/+Linux/posts linux google+ is weirding me out
20:26:32 <kmc> pikhq: hm, like what?
20:26:39 <kmc> elliott: crisis on infinite earths
20:26:56 <pikhq> HD Radio, radio reading service for the blind, Muzak... :P
20:27:13 <pikhq> There's lots of silly stuff shoved on that band.
20:27:17 <olsner> scrolling text ads from RDS
20:27:24 <pikhq> HD Radio is probably the least silly.
20:27:29 <pikhq> Phantom___Hoover: Just talking about it really.
20:28:58 <olsner> but iirc RDS is encoded in the audio data somehow (but perhaps in such a way that you can pick it out of the ether directly?)
20:29:53 <fizzie> There are quite a few people I know dabbling with SDR these days.
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20:30:37 <kmc> yeah it's popular now
20:30:42 <kmc> the USB dongles are so cheap
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20:30:47 <fizzie> Buying E4000's -- http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr -- and the http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1085541682/bladerf-usb-30-software-defined-radio thing.
20:33:23 <pikhq> olsner: It's another subcarrier service.
20:33:53 <pikhq> Looks like it's... 57kHz above the carrier?
20:33:57 <fizzie> (By a curious coincidence, I've also got an old bt878 card that I've used a couple of times as a composite-in device, in order to make the computer pretend to be a monitor for things.)
20:34:09 <fizzie> 03:06.0 Multimedia video controller: Brooktree Corporation Bt878 Video Capture (rev 11)
20:34:17 <pikhq> It's handy for composite in.
20:34:26 <fizzie> There it sits, last used a year or two ago.
20:34:49 <fizzie> It did show up in some "do you want to make video calls with this" dialog though.
20:39:51 <fizzie> I've got an af9015 DVB-T dongle too, but I don't think anyone has made any figuring-out of how to do anything like rtl_sdr on it.
20:40:02 <fizzie> "Documentation for the AF901x family can be obtained from AFA (under NDA), but it is apparently confusing, as well as incomplete."
20:42:03 * pikhq grins somewhat at people using SDR for GPS reception.
20:43:12 <kmc> did you see http://www.holmea.demon.co.uk/GPS/Main.htm
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20:45:53 <fizzie> The af9015 is still better than the DVB-C USB box that doesn't even manage to reliably do DVB: it's an USB 1.1 device, so the bandwidth isn't enough to deliver the entire MPEG transport stream for any of the bundles they use here; on the other hand, the Linux drivers don't support the hardware "filter one program" mode the box has.
20:51:07 <kmc> of course this DVB dongle is useless for watching actual TV here, AMERICA
20:51:37 <fizzie> What did you guys do, something AT something?
20:51:58 <kmc> it would be funny if the SDR setup was good enough to do ATSC in realtime
20:52:02 <kmc> but it probably isn't?
20:52:40 <fizzie> The friend fiddling with the E4000 was just listening to FM radio with it. I don't really know anyone who's done anything "sensible" with that stuff.
20:55:02 <fizzie> Our building's going to be switching cable TV providers, so I think the DVB-T dongle will become pretty useless here too. (The current one, as a quasi-unofficial service, pushes DVB-T signals also over their cable network; but I don't think the others do that. And the tiny table antenna that came with the dongle doesn't really catch a stable anything.)
20:56:44 <zzo38> I happen to think ATSC is terrible for various reasons
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21:21:40 <fizzie> Quoting from the driver source for the DVB-C box: [[the DSP supports filtering in hardware, however, since the "muxstream" is a bit braindead (no matching channel masks or no matching filter mask), we won't support this - yet. it doesn't event support negative filters, so the best way is maybe to keep TTUSB_HWSECTIONS undef'd and just parse TS data. USB bandwidth will be a problem when having ...
21:21:46 <fizzie> ... large datastreams, especially for dvb-net, but hey, that's not my problem.]]
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21:22:36 <kmc> what's dvb-net?
21:23:04 <olsner> "not my problem"? why is someone writing a driver for it if it isn't their problem!?
21:23:49 <fizzie> I think it's some kind of a "generic datastream encapsulation in DVB" thing.
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21:24:19 <fizzie> olsner: If you do go ahead and #define TTUSB_HWSECTIONS, you hit #error TODO: handle ugly stuff.
21:24:21 <quintopia> did i surprise you by answering after such a delay
21:25:26 <quintopia> well thats what you get for asking random people random questions when they're not around
21:25:55 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think whoever wrote it has had a relevant device in a while, since nothing seems to have happened to it in years.
21:26:24 <fizzie> kmc: "The DVB net device enables feeding of MPE (multi protocol encapsulation) packets received via DVB into the Linux network protocol stack, e.g. for internet via satellite applications. It can be accessed through /dev/dvb/adapter0/net0."
21:26:50 <olsner> I guess if you're interested enough to write a driver for some DVB device, you're also interested enough to get a dvb device that actually works
21:26:54 <fizzie> There seem to be rather few references to this thing, makes one wonder if it has ever really been done.
21:27:36 <fizzie> olsner: The same driver handles quite a few devices, most of which have been sensible enough to do USB 2.0 so that you *can* in fact just slurp the entire TS. I assume the driver-writer had one of these.
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21:50:56 <pikhq> kmc: Honestly it'd be pretty neat if it was good enough to do low-res NTSC in realtime.
21:52:07 <pikhq> (at least as far as I understand it, if you're willing to utterly ignore color you can get away with significantly lower sampling rates, but at the cost of getting insanely shit resolution)
21:52:39 <pikhq> (this may not be the case though: I'm a code guy, not some radio tech. :P)
21:52:53 <Fiora> with stuff like digital OTA TV, how much stuff happens in the analog layer (the stuff the SDR has to do?) and how much in the digital layer?
21:54:40 <fizzie> "What has been successfully tested so far is the reception of Broadcast FM and air traffic AM radio, TETRA, GMR, GSM, ADS-B and POCSAG", is what the rtl-sdr project page says.
21:56:06 <fizzie> There's a large TETRA network in Finland (VIRVE), used by things like police, fire departments, etc.; unfortunately (or not so unfortunately), it's encrypted.
21:57:10 <olsner> "In NTSC, chrominance is encoded using two 3.579545 MHz signals [...]", so I guess you'd need at least 7MS/s to decode it ... not sure if this "QAM" magic adds other requirements
21:58:31 <zzo38> Do you know any software NTSC encode/decode even if not real time, but is from a file instead? Can such things be added into ImageMagick?
22:00:13 <fizzie> There's software to fiddle with SSTV (naturally), but those modes are quite different.
22:00:37 <fizzie> (Still: pictures in a phone, how cool is that?)
22:00:46 <olsner> hmm, and QAM requires phase synchronization, so I guess it's difficult
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22:02:06 <fizzie> People seem to have used GNURadio + USRP to decode NTSC.
22:02:27 <fizzie> That's "proper SDR", of course.
22:03:06 <olsner> doesn't that have a FPGA to do processing?
22:04:04 <fizzie> None of the GNUradio stuff would run on the FPGA, though. (I don't think it was done in realtime.)
22:05:00 <zzo38> Voltage/phase colorspace might also be a useful thing to have, if the channels are L=low voltage, H=high voltage, P=phase, then I think the conversion might be (maybe I am wrong, though): Y' = H+L; U = (H-L)*cos(P); V = (H-L)*sin(P);
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22:56:16 <pikhq> olsner: Note that you can get meaningful signals without chrominance.
23:01:42 <kmc> software radio trip report:
23:01:45 <kmc> have found many beeps and bloops
23:01:47 <kmc> no humans yet
23:02:52 <pikhq> No luck finding a number station?
23:05:45 <fizzie> Bleeps and bloops are probably evidence of scheming robots.
23:06:08 <shachaf> better than common lisping robots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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23:13:11 <fizzie> It is probably not a coincidence that ELISP ROBOT is an anagram of TRIES BLOOP.
23:13:18 <ion> elliott: I also like
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23:25:23 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you like bleeps/bloops
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23:26:14 <mnoqy> depends on what sort of bleeps/bloops we're talking here
23:31:16 <lambdabot> *** "boor" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:31:16 <lambdabot> n 1: a crude uncouth ill-bred person lacking culture or
23:31:16 <lambdabot> refinement [syn: {peasant}, {barbarian}, {boor}, {churl},
23:32:09 <quintopia> did someone call you a boor shachaf
23:32:58 <shachaf> i was going to call someone a boor
23:33:08 <shachaf> but then i realized that the english word isn't related to the hebrew word
23:33:25 <Bike> what's the hebrew word?
23:33:52 <shachaf> It means, uh, an uneducated person?
23:34:32 <Bike> so the same, except they're not related?
23:34:38 <shachaf> or maybe it is related......
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23:36:45 <olsner> related to berber/barbarian or something?
23:37:12 <shachaf> I don't think so. But who knows.
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23:38:00 <Bike> ooh, it's from Dutch
23:38:05 <Bike> good job copumpkin
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00:09:27 <Sgeo> Futurama was cancelled.
00:10:11 <Bike> this, too, shall pass
00:10:18 <mnoqy> was futurama any good
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00:13:03 <elliott> does the simpsons still exist
00:13:20 <mnoqy> i hear there's an angry birds cartoon now too
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00:13:52 <mnoqy> i hear the simpsons used to be good and now it's not? i know next to nothing about it
00:14:10 <kmc> that's what they say
00:14:24 <elliott> i have barely seen the newer stuff since why bother
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00:16:16 <Bike> I was going to post a simpsons gif that's going around but here's this other thing instead of that thing i said http://24.media.tumblr.com/512c058201611ad138798c12c3f84878/tumblr_mln4jt7xqS1rgzubio1_1280.png
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00:30:40 <kmc> sort of wish I'd had this last week.....
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01:28:40 <kmc> i think I'm okay with Futurama being cancelled at this point
01:29:07 <kmc> they had a good run, the last few seasons weren't awful but they were clearly running out of steam
01:34:35 <pikhq> Yeah, let it end before it becomes modern-day Simpsons.
01:34:57 <pikhq> mnoqy: The Simpsons was really stellar.
01:35:04 <pikhq> mnoqy: But, it's been airing for decades.
01:35:38 <coppro> "was" is the operative word there
01:37:15 <pikhq> When I say "decades" I mean "it debuted before my birth".
01:40:06 <Sgeo> Isn't something like that why David Tenant left? He wanted to leave at the prime of his role, not let 10 get into decline?
01:40:10 <Sgeo> Or am I misremembering?
01:42:00 <kmc> yeah that's why David Tenant left The Simpsons
01:42:58 <Bike> that poochy guy he played was overhyped anyway
01:43:31 <Gregor> I'm reading a book on sodas from 1888, and apparently they sometimes used muriatic acid (i.e., hydrochloric acid) as the acidifier.
01:43:39 <Gregor> On a scale from one to ten, YIKES.
01:46:47 <shachaf> Gregor: why do you have voice
01:46:49 <Gregor> CHAPTER XXXIX (Compound Syrups, and How to Make Them) is the chapter I'm looking for.
01:46:51 <shachaf> have you considered not having voice
01:46:53 <Gregor> Egad this book has a lot of chapters.
01:47:00 <shachaf> voice makes me uncomfortable
01:47:06 <Gregor> elliott: Proof positive that my +v is necessity here.
01:56:51 <pikhq> Gregor: They currently use phosphoric acid, no?
01:57:08 <pikhq> Which is still fairly frightening.
01:59:27 <Gregor> The more fruitish sodas usually go with citric.
01:59:32 <Gregor> Problem with citric is it tastes citric ;)
02:01:58 * Sgeo obviously meant why David Tenant left Doctor Who
02:12:43 <Sgeo> There exists dedicated Bitcoin-mining hardware.
02:13:05 * Sgeo wishes there was dedicated Folding@Home hardware
02:13:55 <kmc> it would be nice if the bitcoin proof-of-work problem were something useful to the world
02:14:00 <mnoqy> is that where the hardware folds your clothes for you or?
02:14:24 <kmc> maybe once homomorphic encryption works, we can build a proof of work currency where you do other people's compute jobs
02:15:20 <mnoqy> folds your calzone's
02:15:42 <mnoqy> oh wait thats probably actually what calzones are isnt it
02:15:46 <mnoqy> ive never seen a calzone
02:15:54 <elliott> ye (ive never had a calzone or whatever)
02:15:55 <Sgeo> homomorphic encryption?
02:16:15 <Gregor> lol, this book from 1888 calls for making apple soda with artificial apple extract.
02:16:16 * Sgeo agrees with kmc about wishing that bitcoin proof-of-work did elsewhere-useful work
02:17:30 <Gregor> Ha, and apricot soda calls for artificial apricot!
02:20:27 <Bike> Sgeo: homomorphic encryption is like... you can run ordinary programs through a thing that lets them operate on encrypted data (outputting the encrypted result) without decrypting the data.
02:20:48 <Gregor> mnoqy: I've made banana soda. With citric acid as the acidifier, it's a tropical delight.
02:20:50 <elliott> Its encryption as a monad ( Monads are about tainting) :-)
02:21:13 <Bike> also isn't it just a functor
02:21:45 <Bike> functor from the category of elliott to the category of bullshit (the joke is that i'm an endofunctor)
02:21:46 <Sgeo> Seriously, monads aren't about tainting, but tainting can be described with a monad, I guess
02:22:01 <Sgeo> s/described/achieved/
02:22:10 <Bike> ok i googled "monad tainting" and got some perl stuff so i'm gonna stop
02:22:44 <Sgeo> "It's like perl's tainting, but generalized. Anything that touches a Monad gets tainted with the Monad until you untaint it. Anything tainted with the monad won't interoperate with anything else unless you explicitly tell it to work with that Monad's type. This is great when you don't want values "escaping" that shouldn't."
02:23:34 <Sgeo> And this is on the Wiki.
02:23:50 <kmc> Which Wiki
02:23:52 <Bike> sgeo i said i was going to stop. this is not stopping this is the opposite of stopping
02:24:14 <Sgeo> Wiki, classic flavor
02:24:39 -!- Bike has set topic: It's like perl's tainting, but generalized | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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02:36:31 <doesthiswork> somehow I put a bug in my program so it calculates the most beautiful smoothed average I've ever seen but it was meant to just find a linear regression line
02:40:12 <doesthiswork> ah, I fed it the x values as the weights, the y values as the x and the weights as the x values
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03:11:40 <Sgeo> My dad's saying that it's weird that work won't provide me with a computer
03:39:20 <kmc> http://windytan.blogspot.fi/ lots of awesomeness here
03:39:41 <kmc> speaking of... finland, and radios, I guess? but mostly speaking of cool hacks
03:41:20 <Bike> wait, if stations transmit all that stuff why is my car radio not aware
03:43:49 <kmc> maybe your car radio is dumb
03:44:17 <Bike> well, besides that, every station seems to advertise a thing where you text them for song names
03:44:24 <Bike> which wouldn't be necessary with RDS? maybe?
03:45:34 <Bike> oh i guess they only have like 64 chars
03:50:30 <kmc> i can't find the train frequencies :(
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03:54:45 <Fiora> I'd guess the frequency would depend on whether it's coming towards you or moving away
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05:10:14 <Jafet> More shell tricks: ^Z fg && cmd
05:11:30 <ion> That’s a trick?
05:15:58 <Jafet> If you feel tricky while doing it, it is a trick
05:17:21 <kmc> so that adds a new command to be run when the current one completes?
05:17:24 <kmc> that is tricky
05:27:12 <zzo38> O, yes, that might be very useful sometimes.
05:27:41 <kmc> thanks, Jafet. thafet.
05:28:35 <kmc> hm so the SDR mode is not a debug mode, it was the manufacturer's strategy for implementing DAB and FM radio reception as cheaply as possible
05:39:05 <kmc> oh, neat, the RDTSCP instruction loads 32 bits from a MSR into ECX, atomically with the actual TSC read
05:39:37 <kmc> the OS can store a CPU identifier number or such in that MSR
05:39:59 <kmc> which will let userspace deal with different TSC offset on different cores
05:40:13 <Fiora> oooooh. so that's what that part of rdtscp is for
05:40:39 <Fiora> so that lets you use TSC for actual precise time, not just time intervals?
05:41:52 <kmc> well at the least, it lets you know if your interval is accurate or not
05:42:11 <kmc> if your process got moved to a different core in the meantime, it might not be
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05:42:51 <kmc> and there would still be a race condition if you used separate rdtsc and "what core am I on" instructions
05:45:07 <kmc> I think on Linux this is not such a big deal, because on every re-schedule the kernel writes that identifying information to a data page used by the userspace (vDSO) implementation of gettimeofday() / clock_gettime()
05:45:17 <kmc> but... I have no idea what happens if your process is preempted inside these vDSO routines
05:45:29 <kmc> there's probably some outrageous hack to deal with that
05:47:15 <pikhq> I'd bet the scheduler has special logic for the vDSO page.
05:47:41 <kmc> quite possible
05:47:54 <kmc> I'm not sure where I would go to ask such a question... is there a Linux kernel programming channel on Freenode?
05:49:45 <Fiora> I think the thing I remember reading (icky hack, but?) is that if one timer result gives a much longer result than usual, ignore it?
05:50:45 <kmc> but the offset between cores could be negative too
05:51:03 <kmc> it's not guaranteed to be smaller in magnitude than the time it takes to reschedule
05:51:34 <elliott> i bet @ magically avoids these problems
05:53:13 <Bike> how magically we talkin
05:54:27 <kmc> magic like a mushroom
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06:42:09 <fizzie> I haven't seen many (if any) non-car-radios that'd do RDS.
06:42:44 <fizzie> Germany has a fancy thing where the radio automagically activates and speaks when there's a traffic report thing happening.
06:43:35 <fizzie> Oh, "had" is the proper tense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofahrer-Rundfunk-Informationssystem
06:44:08 <fizzie> Apparently it's been obsolamated by a RDS function.
06:46:45 <fizzie> (Many channels spam ads in RDS.)
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07:11:39 <fizzie> http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/ <- silly.
07:16:30 <elliott> i'm upgrading the wiki and adding captchas
07:17:03 <Bike> imo toshinori kondo
07:18:04 <Bike> whats a trumpet
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07:19:06 <elliott> is debian wheezy out yegi ojio
07:19:08 <fizzie> I think it's the part in front of the duck.
07:19:21 <fizzie> I don't know, but maybe DEBIAN.ORG might?
07:19:28 <elliott> i can't use a web browser right now
07:19:28 <fizzie> It was supposed to come out Real Soon.
07:19:41 <elliott> if you love me you'll look it up for me, imo
07:20:18 <fizzie> I think it's out in May, maybe.
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07:20:48 <fizzie> "We now have a target date of the weekend of 4th/5th May" --debian-devel-announce.
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07:23:14 <elliott> why does my debian system have bind9-host installed
07:24:59 <fizzie> It's a slightly fancier host(1) than some other host(1) they have.
07:25:27 <fizzie> (I don't know if they still have other host(1)s.)
07:25:43 <elliott> can i still run netbsd on a toaster
07:25:49 <elliott> that might be nicer than this linux stuff
07:27:02 <fizzie> Apparently 'host' is now a dummy transitional package depending on 'bind9-host', but I have the feeling they had another alternative. (There's also 'unbound-host'.)
07:27:23 <fizzie> ("This package provides the 'unbound-host' program that is bundled with the Unbound domain name server. This version differs from the one provided in the package called host, which is from NIKHEF, and bind9-host, which is from ISC, and has a similar but different set of features and options." yes that's what the other host was.)
07:28:35 <elliott> that anyone would care about the host program, I mean
07:29:58 <Bike> do you care about people caring? do you care about your own astonishment at people caring
07:30:34 <fizzie> HOST PROGRAMS are IMPORTANT.
07:30:56 <elliott> computers are awful and so is life :(
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07:39:52 <fizzie> Well, now. This campus lunch place has special deals if you foursquare in.
07:57:39 <shachaf> how special are we talkin'
08:17:05 <fizzie> If you are the mayor, you get a free coffee.
08:18:23 <fizzie> They did say special deals with a plural, but that's the only thing I can see in foursquare.com. Then again, I'm not in it.
08:21:42 <fizzie> They're very hip and social media, the restaurant's own instructions page says what you need to do if you have an "I Phone".
08:21:56 <fizzie> Also if you have an "Anroid".
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08:52:24 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
09:01:23 <lifthrasiir> elliott: well, you have failed to break the wiki
09:01:37 <elliott> but then I fixed it in a panic
09:01:44 <elliott> and now I am trying to find new captchas to add in the irc logs
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09:03:25 <elliott> seriously, does anyone know where those were
09:05:52 <elliott> 20:41:15: <oerjan> elliott: "What is printed by the HQ9+ program "HQ"?" "What is the only primitive of Subtle cough?" "In which year was Befunge invented?" "Who invented Befunge?" "What language was used to produce the first Malbolge "Hello, world!" program?"
09:12:22 <elliott> @tell oerjan I'm using most of your suggested CAPTCHAs, thanks :)
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09:29:51 <elliott> @tell ais523 AbuseFilter should be fully working now, including the log; you might want to tweak it to block more aggressively or such, but hopefully the new CAPTCHAs will do a better job
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10:10:26 <elliott> google completions for "where are my ":
10:10:34 <elliott> where are my videos on facebook
10:16:53 <olsner> thanks elliott, much obliged
10:17:12 <HackEgo> olsner: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:17:21 <shachaf> olsner: what's a good puzzle
10:27:46 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/HACf "where are my pills"
10:28:55 <fizzie> It's always docstrings, pills, demikhat3d logs or "pictures of you".
10:29:22 <fungot> shachaf: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
10:29:30 <fungot> shachaf: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you!
10:30:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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10:30:32 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
10:30:37 <fungot> shachaf: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
10:30:47 <fizzie> fungot: Stop threatening people.
10:30:47 <fungot> fizzie: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine!
10:30:50 <shachaf> this is a good fungot style
10:30:50 <fungot> shachaf: in the middle ages, sir slush!...... how cruel! umm! thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but you are true heros. the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat a monster that roams the inner earth, absorbing the land's power and growing ever stronger the resemblance...uncanny! you guys leaving!
10:31:11 <fizzie> fungot: Is it a good game?
10:31:11 <fungot> fizzie: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch. disturbances in the space-time continuum. and you must now carry out his sentence. hold your horses! i want to dance! ladeedadeeda! got some spending so much of his time doing research on lavos. but you have it...determination, i mean...
10:31:25 <fizzie> The style is kind of repetitive.
10:31:42 <shachaf> Yes, but you don't notice it the first time.
10:31:58 <fungot> shachaf: i shall help also. like that piano player. everyone's...! ...and the dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
10:34:30 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/IiVi fungot's opinion on the game.
10:34:30 <fungot> fizzie: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! mommy, the mountain's gonna fall! and leene and the masamune!
10:34:39 <fizzie> fungot: I don't call myself a frog.
10:34:39 <fungot> fizzie: i must ponder this turn of events, it can have a powerful effect on time. ask the one to bring back lost loved ones... it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
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10:57:47 <Jafet> Sixty-five million years before chrono trigger
10:57:55 <fungot> Jafet: you! take! we find! received a mid tonic! amazing! you found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
10:59:18 <fizzie> I think that was enough repe-a-tition.
10:59:27 <fizzie> I'm missing a ^style random that'd pick a random style.
10:59:37 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
10:59:41 <fizzie> fungot: How old are you?
10:59:42 <fungot> fizzie: leave, some of whose papers he professed to have found them was long a visible reality, and of these, finding a pair of dirty and amazingly antique glasses with small octagonal lenses and steel bows. his build and lower facial features were like other clergymen i had seen dozens of polar mirages during the preceding weeks. one had been there before, and of what the family had preserved no trace. late in december 1770 a
11:02:37 <elliott> fizzie: can you rewrite MediaWiki for me?
11:04:01 <Jafet> fizzie: make ^style esowiki
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11:16:38 <fizzie> elliott: A man just came to my office and told me that speech recognition is for losers.
11:18:16 <shachaf> "la la la la i can't understand the words you're saying"
11:18:17 <elliott> fizzie: what a wise man indeed. you should trust him.
11:19:19 <elliott> fizzie: did he say anything else?
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11:21:46 <fizzie> Something about ops, but I just disregarded that part, it's none of my business.
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11:23:06 <Taneb> ...what's perl's tainting?
11:24:28 <elliott> fizzie: hm. it sounds like a message from god.
11:24:31 <elliott> fizzie: I think you should act on it.
11:24:50 <fizzie> Taneb: It's a mechanism for tracking data originated from outside your program.
11:24:53 <elliott> p.s. hahehehehehehehehhehehhehehehheh
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11:25:13 <shachaf> fizzie: how did you end up an op, anyway
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11:25:37 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't really know. Some kind of an accident, perhaps.
11:26:21 <fizzie> "[modified ? ago]", you're not terribly helpful here, ChanServ.
11:28:06 <shachaf> fizzie: btw speech recognition is the best
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11:33:15 <HackEgo> 247) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice. \ 541) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all. \ 337) <Sgeo> Hmm. I
11:33:46 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy should i "rewrite history" so all your quotes say mnoqy
11:33:59 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: it "shuf"fles hth
11:34:04 <HackEgo> 751) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes \ 577) <monqy> bad people have feelings t
11:50:42 <HackEgo> 541) <elliott> Dear god stop staring at me. <monqy> no never <Phantom_Hoover> monqy is always staring at everyone. <monqy> it takes many eyes to do this but I manage <Phantom_Hoover> He is an inspiration to us all. \ 751) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me
11:51:56 <fizzie> Who was who? The man? That was just a guy.
11:52:09 <fizzie> I don't know why elliott would know that guy.
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12:02:38 <HackEgo> mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
12:03:28 <shachaf> mnoqy is sort of like monqy
12:06:25 <FireFly> `run sed 's/./&\n/g' <<<monqy | shuf | xargs
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12:10:59 <fizzie> Qymnostics, it's an Olympic sport.
12:12:32 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
12:13:34 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
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12:35:21 <elliott> Most Likely Will Fibroids Cause Losing The Unborn Baby In Early Pregnancy
12:35:22 <elliott> How I Uncovered The Facts Regarding Payday Advance
12:35:26 <elliott> very good blocked spam page titles here
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13:22:59 <boily> holy batman, that is some sweet demo: http://youtu.be/sBKmqkh9bb8
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13:34:01 <quintopia> 64k is huge given all the stuff that graphics cards and their attendant software can do for you nowadays
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13:36:39 <quintopia> i can't really read most of what the floaty particles at the end are saying though
13:37:08 <boily> subliminal floating particles are a staple of the demoscene.
13:38:17 <fizzie> 4k is where it's at, eh? (1k is the new 4k and so on.)
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13:40:21 <fizzie> fungot: Can you write scenepoetry?
13:40:22 <fungot> fizzie: always positive, though in reality he has died a long ago. but just decided to steal the good ideas... making it even more lambda, application, and the piecewise function f(x) fnord to be serious
13:42:05 <boily> handwritten with a nice fountain pen, on 120 grammes paper.
13:42:22 <fizzie> I'd train a new style if there was a reasonable way to automate extracting text from demos.
13:42:25 <fizzie> Maybe when the semantic web is here, I can just type "site:pouet.net extract:scenepoetry" into SemaGoogle, and get a machine-readable dataset out.
13:43:28 <fizzie> Or I guess I won't need a search engine, since the browser can just understand things about things.
13:45:36 <boily> if the browser can understand things about things, then it can understand things about things about things, and so on.
13:45:50 <boily> is there a semantic identithing?
13:46:10 <elliott> someone is accessing the esowiki with an ipv6 address. and a lynx hostname.
13:46:14 <elliott> but it is requesting images.
13:48:28 <fizzie> Are the timestamps for the image loads really close to the actual page load? Perhaps that someone is just clicking at the image links you can configure lynx to make.
13:48:57 <elliott> 2001:470:27:506:fcd:42fa:a1c0:362e - - [23/Apr/2013:13:45:39 +0000] "GET /w/skins/common/images/cc-0.png HTTP/1.1" 304 0 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ook!" "Lynx/2.8.8"
13:49:00 <elliott> 2001:470:27:506:fcd:42fa:a1c0:362e - - [23/Apr/2013:13:45:39 +0000] "GET /w/skins/common/images/poweredby_mediawiki_88x31.png HTTP/1.1" 304 0 "http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ook!" "Lynx/2.8.8"
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14:14:34 <fizzie> Oh, a fellow he.net (probably tunnelbroker) user.
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14:18:38 <fizzie> Is a "0U" rack-mount device infinitely thin?
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14:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> oh hey sfdebris is covering that thing Sgeo told me to watch
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14:56:33 <FireFly> Because you don't have dog installed?
14:56:45 <FireFly> Disclaimer: I don't know if there's any software providing a 'dog' command
14:59:12 <boily> darn. I broke yaourt again.
14:59:20 <Bike> No command 'dog' found, did you mean: Command 'mog' from package 'mazeofgalious' (universe)
14:59:20 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
14:59:58 <Bike> @tell shachaf thats not a question
15:00:22 <elliott> boily: people use yaourt in 2013?!?!?!?!?!?![MOCK SURPRISE]
15:01:05 <lambdabot> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt
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15:05:40 <FireFly> "A better cat, supporting HTTP and hex dumping" I'm not sure what HTTP or hex dumping has to do with concatenation
15:06:06 <Bike> i dono't think you understand Unix Philosophy dude
15:07:40 <boily> (meanwhile, no, yaourt didn't break, it's just a generic DNS issue on my end.)
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16:23:41 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
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16:33:10 <fizzie> I didn't know that was a command.
16:33:21 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping
16:43:08 <FireFly> lambdabot: your trigger isn't '?'. Are you drunk?
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16:51:43 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're following a playlist of age-verified videos on youtube, it looks like it keeps on adding a has_verified parameter to the url until the site barfs because it's too long
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17:07:18 <boily> age-verified, as in you must be over 18 to watch those videos?
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17:37:46 <nooodl> ^bf ,[.,]!) '`echo > 42'
17:37:47 <jconn> fungot: `echo > 42
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17:42:05 <`echo> ^bf ,[.,]!) '> 42'
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17:42:36 <fizzie> Aw, my portable-FM-radio/cassette-deck/cd-player device doesn't seem to do that RDS signal leak thing kmc linked to yesterday. :/
17:42:54 <boily> nooodl: you could always try to chain my bot.
17:43:09 <kmc> i've never been able to find good spectrogram software for Linux...
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17:43:48 <boily> fizzie: if you have an old CRT lying around, there's this small piece of software that displays patterns that you can listen to with an AM radio.
17:44:17 <nooodl> `run ln -s /bin/echo bin/nooodl:
17:44:44 -!- nooodl has changed nick to `nooodl.
17:44:46 <jconn> `nooodl: ^bf ,[.,]!> 42
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17:45:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: greetings from the past <-- thank you
17:45:15 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
17:45:15 <fizzie> boily: Didn't I link to that, yesterday?
17:45:30 <boily> fizzie: probably. yesterday is far away, and is currently being GCed in my mind.
17:45:36 <fungot> `nooodl: i don't know what you mean by awesome :) :) :) :)
17:45:37 <HackEgo> i don't know what you mean by awesome :) :) :) :)
17:45:47 <kmc> fungot: what do you mean by awesome?
17:45:47 <fungot> kmc: ( i hardly read anything private in 3 minutes.
17:46:08 <fizzie> I *really* need to add the Gregor trick one day.
17:46:14 <kmc> what's that
17:46:29 <jconn> `nooodl: ^bf ,[.,]!> 42
17:46:42 <fizzie> kmc: If initial letter of output is nonalphanumeric, prefix with a zero-width space. Ruins botloops.
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17:47:23 <FireFly> fungot: don't you want to learn Gregor's trick?
17:47:23 <fungot> FireFly: everything else shows good.... thats all i have to admit i'm not one of the semispaces can be stored. an identifier is terrible and wrong,
17:47:25 <fizzie> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rrxkTWw3Ko/UXRBLCrzWnI/AAAAAAAABvo/v3xvRKurngM/s1600/mystery-sidebands.png <-> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130423-no-mystery.png
17:47:42 <FireFly> See?! an identifier is *terrible* and *wrong*
17:48:18 <`nooodl> i guess fungot is set to ignore hackego? and maybe other bots
17:48:19 <fungot> `nooodl: there are a few trigraphs in there. new record. maybe to delimit inline c++ code with scheme? i generally use the term fnord
17:48:20 <HackEgo> there are a few trigraphs in there. new record. maybe to delimit inline c++ code with scheme? i generally use the term fnord
17:48:31 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|jconn)!
17:49:08 <fizzie> FireFly: It's a builtin, sadly.
17:49:38 <kmc> baudline isn't in Debian, and it has some bizarre closed-source license
17:49:53 <kmc> "Purchase the GPL source code for the baudline signal analyzer. The source code is expensive and it is intended for qualified corporate or institutional buyers."
17:50:10 <fizzie> kmc: Well, that's GPL-compliant.
17:50:16 <fizzie> I don't think anyone has bought it, though.
17:50:21 <kmc> once someone buys that GPL source can't they redistribute it freely?
17:50:33 <fizzie> But I don't think anyone has bought it.
17:50:36 <kmc> ok, so this is kind of a one-time ransom payment
17:50:38 <kmc> very strange
17:50:42 <kmc> they should do a kickstarter instead
17:50:44 <fizzie> Blender did something slightly similar.
17:50:55 <kmc> yeah, but I think they phrased it explicitly as such
17:51:04 <fizzie> There's a bit of a history behind it; e.g. they were going to open-source it in SourceForge, but got rejected.
17:51:12 <fizzie> (I didn't think SourceForge rejected *anyone*.)
17:51:24 <fizzie> Or at least that's how they explain their current scheme.
17:51:46 <fizzie> kmc: http://sigblips.blogspot.fi/2008/04/source-code-trivia.html <- that's their story.
17:52:03 <fizzie> "After the disillusionment of being rejected by Linux's two most successful IPO'd companies --"
17:52:11 <oerjan> <Phantom_motnahP> elliott, i still really want to know how oerjan managed to get the mackerel one
17:52:17 <jconn> `nooodl: ~echo > 42
17:52:19 <fizzie> I'd like to know the other side of it, but I doubt that's feasible.
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17:52:39 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
17:52:43 <fizzie> "The reason [for SourceForge rejection] was something ridiculous about baudline not being useful."
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17:52:55 <Gregor> Hahaha SUFFER all ye who don't like Unicode!
17:52:58 <fizzie> I wonder if there's really just some kind of a terrible miscommunication there.
17:53:24 <oerjan> @tell phantom_hoover <Phantom_motnahP> elliott, i still really want to know how oerjan managed to get the mackerel one <-- if you are referring to what i think you are, it was just a pun on doggerel?
17:56:48 <oerjan> @tell olsner <olsner> was it oerjan who started the I,I thing? <-- definitely not, i think shachaf is who i noticed using it a lot
17:57:50 <FireFly> What is it even supposed to look like?
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18:19:51 * pikhq has some really silly data storage going here.
18:19:58 <pikhq> Kansas City standard audio. On CD.
18:20:04 <pikhq> ... because fuck, why not.
18:20:46 <HackEgo> lastlog: unexpected argument: Taneb \ Usage: lastlog [options] \ \ Options: \ -b, --before DAYS print only lastlog records older than DAYS \ -h, --help display this help message and exit \ -t, --time DAYS print only lastlog records more recent than DAYS \ -u, --user LOGIN print last
18:23:42 <Gregor> pikhq: Idonno what "Kansas City standard audio" is *hurp*
18:24:56 <pikhq> Gregor: It's a old standard for sticking data on casette. At 300 baud.
18:25:08 <pikhq> Called the Kansas City standard because it's from Kansas City.
18:25:35 <Gregor> What, 300 samples per second? X-D
18:25:45 <kmc> pikhq: ha, nice
18:25:49 <fizzie> Hey, I selected a channel with less noise, and there actually are those things: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130423-mystery.png
18:25:52 <Gregor> I'll bet that sounds amazing.
18:26:04 <kmc> i used to store my TRS-80 programs as .WAV files on Windows
18:26:24 <pikhq> It was designed to be easy to implement and reliable. On 70s analog recording equipment. :)
18:27:26 <pikhq> fizzie: Hmm, is that the RDS alias? I'm definitely seeing the 19k pilot tone there.
18:31:45 <oerjan> nooodl: I,I that I,I means something like "I have nothing to contribute, I just like saying"
18:32:05 <oerjan> (note: above use of I,I is incorrect)
18:32:24 <Bike> who died and made you I,Imaster
18:32:34 <nooodl> that's the wrongggg command isn't it :/
18:32:56 <oerjan> Bike: well that's approximately how shachaf explained it to me.
18:33:04 <oerjan> nooodl: no, HackEgo is just slow
18:33:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31242
18:33:54 <FireFly> Oh I thought the I,I was some sort of weird emoticon
18:38:46 <olsner> shachaf: fungot puzzle?
18:38:46 <lambdabot> olsner: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:38:46 <fungot> olsner: what i am playing with the edge of a pool on a hot day)
18:39:02 <fizzie> pikhq: Compared to the other picture -- http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rrxkTWw3Ko/UXRBLCrzWnI/AAAAAAAABvo/v3xvRKurngM/s1600/mystery-sidebands.png -- the things on both sides of it look quite similar, at least. I'll look closer.
18:39:28 <olsner> @tell oerjan ok, I'll blame shachaf for I,I instead then
18:39:59 <lambdabot> olsner said 31s ago: ok, I'll blame shachaf for I,I instead then
18:40:29 <pikhq> fizzie: Curiously, the pilot tone in yours appears to be well *below* 19kHz.
18:41:01 <pikhq> That's probably just the station being weird though. Looking at it, it appears there's an 8kHz window that can be in, centered around 19kHz.
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18:41:27 <pikhq> There's a company making 8 inch floppies.
18:41:56 <pikhq> Ah, federal contract. :)
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18:42:11 <ais523> what sort of storage space do they have nowadays?
18:42:11 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:42:17 <ais523> less than the 3¼ inch ones?
18:42:38 <olsner> I guess those 8 inch floppies are what the DEA use to store case files
18:42:59 <pikhq> An 8 inch floppy can get you up to 1.2M
18:43:32 <fizzie> pikhq: Actually, it might also be an artifact of using sox's "rec -r 44100 - | baudline -stdin" for the analysis; seems that it sort of muddled the sampling rate there. (baudline's recording mode didn't want to play well with padsp.)
18:45:01 <ais523> pikhq: that's… indeed less than a 3¼ inch one, if you use nonstandard formats designed to maximise storage density
18:45:15 <ais523> 1.44M is the storage size that DOS manages
18:45:57 <olsner> more like 1440kB or 1.4MB
18:46:20 <olsner> incidentally, there was a discussion about the definition of a megabyte at work today
18:47:21 <pikhq> Handy if you've got an Altair 8800 around I suppose.
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18:52:31 <fizzie> 1.2M is also what the 5.25" "HD" floppy holds.
19:05:07 <ion> AmigaOS puts 880 kB and 1760 kB on DD and HD floppies respectively IIRC.
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19:19:23 <Gregor> OS/2 Warp had 1.88MB floppies.
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19:39:04 <fizzie> Linux at least used to let you fdformat /dev/fd0H1920 a regular DS-HD floppy.
19:39:11 <fizzie> (Any data loss was of course your own problem.)
19:40:23 <pikhq> Hell, Microsoft shipped their software on 1680k floppies.
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19:42:43 <coppro> http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/04/23/the-speakers-ruling-on-the-case-of-mark-warawa/
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19:52:13 <boily> make menu config, make menuconfig... maaaaake menuconfiiiiiigeuh ♪
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20:33:48 <Snowyowl> Has anyone said anything in the last hour?
20:34:09 <Snowyowl> I got disconnected and didn't realise it.
20:34:09 <Bike> no, but there was singing
20:36:05 <Bike> you gonna take that, boily?
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20:38:31 <boily> Bike: well, I *do* sing horribly off-key.
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20:40:46 <Gregor> Hahaha, this old (1888) book on soda and soda recipes has a recipe for pineapple soda: The primary ingredients are, no surprise, pineapple extract and citric acid, but the secondary ingredient? Essence of bitter almond. Yummmmm, cyanide REALLY brings out the pineapple flavor!
20:42:11 <Bike> "the last taste you'll ever remember"
20:42:24 <olsner> I think only one in five or something can smell cyanide
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20:46:16 <Snowyowl> other way around, one in five can't smell cyanide
20:46:41 <Snowyowl> source: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BitterAlmonds
20:47:19 <pikhq> How, exactly, did they test that? "Does this smell deadly to you?"
20:48:06 <olsner> I guess they tested it by smelling bitter almonds
20:48:27 <Snowyowl> "My almonds smell like poison." "Wait, my poison smells like almonds."
20:49:59 <olsner> "new mown hay" apparently smells like phosgene
20:51:35 <olsner> not sure what hay is but apparently it can be mown
20:52:55 <olsner> "Causes increased dopey feeling"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Phosgene_poster_ww2.jpg
20:53:56 <boily> hay is that beige thing that puts some kind of bally relief in fields.
20:56:08 <kmc> creepy poster
20:57:57 <kmc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/medicalmuseum/sets/72157625947789372/with/5404772407/
21:01:21 <olsner> cough,cry,vomit::quiet,wash eyes,warmth o.O
21:02:28 <boily> there's a perl package named vomit? bletch.
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21:07:43 <ais523> olsner: hay is one of the components of grass, I think
21:07:46 <ais523> it's used to feed animals
21:11:32 <Bike> hay is used for it too
21:12:14 <ais523> straw and hay are different but used for similar purposes
21:12:16 <ais523> I can't remember the difference
21:13:06 <Bike> i think we just feed anything organic to animals, basically
21:14:54 <boily> we also feed a surprisingly large amount of animals to animals, too.
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21:38:21 <boily> 393 pages, a wikia, and some completely unhinged personas. when will the Time madness stop?
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21:45:24 <Gregor> This book has a recipe for phosphatic soda...
21:45:37 <Gregor> It's a soda in which the only flavoring agent is the phosphoric acid...
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21:46:21 <pikhq> How utterly acidic.
21:46:48 <Gregor> Its mint soda is quite tasty!
21:46:53 <Gregor> (Mind you, it's also quite obvious.)
21:47:09 <Gregor> (Syrup + citric acid + mint = yeah, I'd already figured this out, but thanks for the particular amount of mint to use)
21:47:27 <pikhq> Also probably worth a shot, cause that sounds pretty good.
21:48:30 <olsner> does it have a joke recipe for caustic soda too?
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21:58:31 <kmc> here syrup = saturated sugar water?
22:00:55 <Gregor> (Actually, not quite saturated, just 2:1)
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22:12:46 <kmc> one time i made supersaturated kool-aid
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22:26:49 <Vorpal> 1.6 MB/s is a pretty terrible transfer speed to the external class 10 sd card in my phone, even considering that I mounted it over sshfs. I'm using 11n network with good signal strength. Phone claims 130 mbit/s on it.
22:40:42 <lambdabot> Bike said 7h 40m 44s ago: thats not a question
22:42:26 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:42:33 <Bike> @forget-messages
22:42:50 <Bike> @clear-messages
22:43:41 <shachaf> i had an actual question but i don't remember it .... ...... .........
22:44:27 <Bike> was it a good question?
22:44:29 <kmc> sha cha fha
22:45:21 <kmc> =======> THIS MAY TAKE QUITE SOME TIME <=========
22:45:27 * kmc is building GNU Radio, again
22:45:47 <shachaf> Bike: high quality questions for low prices
22:45:51 <Bike> "Despite a number of spam sites hawking the TYPE JWZ VALVE TEST BENCH, I cannot find any information on what a TYPE JWZ VALVE TEST BENCH is." is this what it's like to be jwz
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22:47:43 -!- kmc has set topic: Increased dopey feeling | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:51:20 <Phantom_Hoover> so of late i've been finding my irc connections time out as soon as i connect
22:51:21 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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23:14:36 <kmc> cool it only took 20 min this time, 358% CPU usage
23:14:39 <kmc> hooray for moar cores
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23:32:19 <nooga_> I need to translate something rather weird to english
23:32:31 <Bike> how weird we talkin
23:32:53 <nooga_> Zmiany w biocenozie jamy ustnej u pacjentów leczonych protetycznie.
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23:34:24 <nooga_> it would be something like: Changes in mouth biocenosis of patients treated prosthetically.
23:34:52 <kmc> oh I still have a kiełbasa in my fridge!!
23:34:57 <kmc> and five or six kinds of mustard!!!
23:35:04 <nooga_> so we have changes in biocenosis, that take place in mouth
23:35:20 <nooga_> and this mouth belongs to someone treated prosthetically
23:36:30 <nooga_> i'm not sure about this of
23:41:34 <copumpkin> oh shit, an L with a bar through it
23:43:27 <nooga_> TeruFSX: kieoobasa would be a bolder approximation
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23:44:38 <nooga_> http://www.ivona.com/en/?tk=FapaAmLWFW
23:45:12 <nooga_> uh, maybe "Changes in biocenosis of the oral cavity in patients with prostheses."
23:45:24 <nooga_> can we have something *in* patients?
23:51:41 <btiffin> Is there a bf fan club? The fb's?
23:56:12 -!- augur has joined.
23:56:22 <btiffin> Sorry, Jafet, the last bit, is that really Best Friends Forever. If so, awesome.
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00:05:36 <kmc> i feel bad b/c i just vaccumed up a spider's whole web
00:05:43 <kmc> and now he/she is homeless and crawling around
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00:23:46 <kmc> webs must be expensive though
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00:29:45 <HackEgo> Saizan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:35:51 <Saizan> shachaf: how many make jokes about wanting help with pentacles?
00:36:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25552
00:38:24 <olsner> two copies of the same joke, one that's not a joke at all, and then you?
00:38:51 <shachaf> I thought everything zzo38 says is a joke.
00:39:21 <olsner> I think most of it is entirely serious
00:39:36 <coppro> pentacles isn't the problem
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00:55:13 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know about https://code.google.com/p/strace-plus/ ?
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01:01:05 <kmc> i wonder if perf does this too
01:02:26 <kmc> doesn't perf do userspace profiling in addition to the performance counters stuff
01:03:56 <shachaf> perf probably does a lot of things I don't know about.
01:04:05 <shachaf> For example I just found out about `perf top`
01:07:54 <kmc> seems GNU Radio has a bunch of C code that is templated using http://www.cheetahtemplate.org/
01:08:11 <kmc> take that, #python people who told me several years ago that I was crazy for wanting to do that!
01:08:28 <Bike> laugh at strangers on freenode in hell
01:08:44 <ion> That proved you were not crazy for wanting to do that?
01:08:57 <kmc> no not really
01:14:44 <shachaf> `pastelogs supermegacomics.com
01:15:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14095
01:16:56 <olsner> they should've used php for generating C code, since php comes with a builtin template engine
01:18:03 <ion> {-# LANGUAGE PHP #-} as an alternative for CPP.
01:18:12 <kmc> olsner: yes
01:18:20 <kmc> also ion in re: yes
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01:18:50 <kmc> jimmy or warren
01:18:57 <olsner> I wonder if PHP has CPP integration too
01:18:58 <kmc> or breakfast
01:19:11 <ion> Perhaps it’s PHP all the way down.
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01:38:35 <shachaf> kmc: Are you coming to BayHac 2013?
01:42:28 <ais523> do we have a `firstlog?
01:42:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
01:42:57 <ais523> yeah but `pastelogs IRC would take far too long
01:43:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24412
01:43:46 <olsner> oh, 2007, that's only half a decade ago
01:43:47 <ais523> aha, it stops after a while
01:44:15 <olsner> shachaf: actually 20% more than half a decade
01:44:15 <ais523> 2007-01-15.txt:17:16:16: <ais523> So there are people on #esoteric at the moment after all, then? I was monitoring the logs to see if anyone was online, but somehow I never seem to be online at the same time as other people...
01:45:38 <ais523> 2007-01-17.txt:12:02:30: <ais523> For those who don't know, it was me who caused EgoBot to crash
01:45:39 <ais523> 2007-01-17.txt:12:03:13: <ais523> I fed it an infinite loop written in Unlambda, and it sent me an infinite number of copies of the letter 'b' in response, until it got thrown out
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02:28:28 <kmc> http://blog.pnuts.tk/2013/04/plaidctf-pyjail-story-of-pythons-escape.html this is some p. esoteric python
02:28:55 <shachaf> newtype Foo a = Foo { unFoo :: a }; instance Monoid a => Num (Foo a) where Foo x * Foo y = Foo (x <> y); fromInteger 1 = Foo mempty; timesN n = unFoo . (^ n) . Foo
02:39:52 <ion> http://img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-03-23/haqq3rs.jpg
02:46:32 <kmc> icy hot stuntaz
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03:28:37 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy How many values of type Either () () -> Either () () are there?
03:33:06 <shachaf> oh man there's a copumpkin-dolio party in #scala
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03:46:00 <mnoqy> shachaf: that's not a very nice thing to ask
03:46:19 <shachaf> mnoqy: should i "unask it"
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03:47:58 <kmc> shachaf: should i move to san francisco
03:50:29 <kmc> what's so great about san francisco, i say we go to mexico
03:51:46 <shachaf> mnoqy: how about: Endo (Either (Maybe Void) (Maybe Void))
03:52:02 <shachaf> (Endo is free because it's a newtype..)
03:53:34 <shachaf> kmc: just think of all the burritos
03:54:20 <kmc> we have those here now too
03:54:42 <kmc> what's........ ↁ
03:54:48 <kmc> Alternative forms
03:54:48 <kmc> V, MMMMM, mmmmm, V̅, Ⅴ̅
03:54:53 <kmc> MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
03:57:07 <shachaf> kmc: well my crystal ball informs me that all the cool people move to san francisco
04:00:08 <kmc> it seems so
04:01:30 <shachaf> kmc: didn't you recommend a change of scenery/surroundings/something like that to me once
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04:02:18 <kmc> in re: what
04:04:32 <shachaf> in re: being generally frustrated
04:04:35 <kmc> i would need to find a job in SF that isn't full of brogrammers or insufferable hipsters or whatever
04:04:46 <kmc> it would be an exciting education in the degree to which these are real things!
04:04:59 <shachaf> i think these things are overstated
04:05:28 <kmc> thank you internet for bringing me the worst of everything, daily
04:05:36 <kmc> but also...... the best?
04:06:39 * kmc thinks #esoteric is much closer to the best, all things considered
04:07:07 <Fiora> as inexplicable as this place can be sometimes it generally isn't that bad
04:07:30 <kmc> yes i quite like #esoteric
04:07:33 <kmc> I feel comfortable here
04:07:39 <shachaf> i live in the hope that one day someone will think that sometimes i generally am not that bad
04:07:51 <shachaf> Fiora thinks ##fiora is the very best, of course
04:07:58 <Bike> so is anyone else doing gsoc?
04:08:10 <shachaf> I'm the backup admin for haskell.org. Does that count?
04:08:16 <Bike> or has anyone done it before. i'm suddenly intimidated by having to form a plan and generally not fuck up
04:08:16 <kmc> i feel comfortable here because it's obviously v. accepting of strange people
04:10:14 <shachaf> am i strange people?? help
04:10:15 <kmc> i don't know
04:10:20 <kmc> maybe i am more sad than strange :/
04:11:28 <shachaf> I,I They used to think I was ADD but it turned out I was just ODD.
04:11:51 <Bike> overdosed o- oh. oh
04:12:30 <kmc> did you know: in californee you can buy alcohol in grocery stores
04:12:33 <kmc> "land of plenty"
04:12:42 <kmc> and weed on every corner
04:13:07 <shachaf> you could move to berkeley
04:13:09 <Fiora> is that not normal?
04:13:14 <Fiora> like, alcohol in grocery stores
04:13:17 <kmc> Fiora: you can't in MA :(
04:13:24 <Fiora> even , like, wine?
04:13:30 <kmc> in MA each company is only allowed to sell alcohol in 3 stores statewide
04:13:38 <kmc> so like... there are three Trader Joe's that sell booze
04:13:47 <Fiora> O_O even things like cooking wine?
04:13:50 <kmc> it's not quite as bad as PA
04:14:05 <kmc> i don't know about cooking wine, often it's salted such that you don't want to drink it
04:14:21 <Fiora> oh, they carded me when I bought some at the trader joe's
04:14:22 <Bike> you still can't buy alcohol on sundays, right?
04:14:25 <Bike> god i love mass
04:14:30 <kmc> crypto/cooking advice: "always salt your hash" "don't put pickles in your cookies"
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04:14:32 <Bike> or wait was that just boston
04:14:34 <Fiora> buying cooking wine is like the only time I've ever been carded
04:14:38 <kmc> Bike: I think I can
04:14:41 <Fiora> since, I mean. I don't normally buy alcohol... XD
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04:15:09 <Bike> one of my childhood memories is walking into a trader joe's with my dad and getting all excited about the liquor section being covered in caution tape
04:15:14 <Fiora> it's not like I've never drank more than about one sip in my life
04:15:25 <Fiora> I don't even know if I inherited the alcohol flush gene <.<
04:15:40 <shachaf> Fiora: that's one more sip than i have, so ha!!
04:15:54 <Fiora> I don't think so, it doesn't seem like a good idea
04:17:19 <shachaf> Bike: which gsoc thing are you doing
04:17:27 <Fiora> like it makes you dumb and say dumb things and lose control of yourself for no real good reason
04:17:37 <Bike> sbcl, hopefully
04:17:42 <Fiora> and then you wake up later and regret it
04:17:44 <Bike> i still haven't decided which specific thing to do...
04:17:44 <kmc> alcohol is overrated but it's allright
04:17:55 <shachaf> kmc: is that just the alcohol talking
04:18:50 <shachaf> Bike: have you considered......haskell
04:19:04 <shachaf> being in #esoteric is a lot like being drunk isn't it
04:19:12 <Bike> Yes. I was convincing somebody to use it elsewhere today.
04:20:19 <Bike> I have a patch in sbcl and i'm sorta familiar with the codebase. Also I actually know Lisp, instead of my pretending to know Haskell.
04:20:57 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States#Massachusetts my childhood!!
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04:23:48 <madbr> "Since the law changed in 2004, off-premises sales are now allowed anywhere in the state, with local approval, after noon."
04:30:30 <madbr> not much of a fan of local level of government... feels wrong to give them that kind of power
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04:33:55 <madbr> to me it feels like letting old jealous ladies from your neighbourhood decide... dunno
04:35:43 <madbr> and generally a plan to end up with a town where you can't do anything and there are no places to go out
04:36:26 <madbr> and end up with a "doughnut" city that's dead in the middle (only example I've seen personally was cleveland)
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06:54:04 <fizzie> Bike: There's a friend of mine who did GSoC.
06:54:16 <Bike> are they still alive
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06:54:47 <fizzie> Bike: About the only detail I remember is that his mentoring organization complained on his Facebook wall that they'd like to see some commits, when he was rambling around Europe.
06:55:20 <fizzie> Bike: But he's still alive, and did finish the thing, and I think he's been on-and-off involved in the project since then too.
06:56:10 <fizzie> I wonder if there are stats on how many people generally "fuck up" their projects. Some assumption of fucking up is built in the reward scheme.
06:56:45 <fizzie> "88.5% overall success rate" for 2012.
06:57:14 <fizzie> So if you do fail, you can brag about being part of the "11.5%".
06:57:49 <Fiora> you'll do fine bike
06:57:56 <fizzie> You'll do a fine bike.
06:58:00 <fizzie> Perhaps a recumbent of some sort.
07:05:45 <shachaf> Bike: you can't do gsoc if you're from Iran, Cuba, Myanmar, Sudan or North Korea hth
07:07:37 <Bike> i'm from luxembourg.
07:07:43 <Bike> wait, why sudan?
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07:08:26 <Bike> and why not south sudan.. i don't get it
07:19:37 <shachaf> kmc: have you watched the film Funny Bones
07:20:51 <fizzie> Bike: Why doesn't Luxembourg have Google Street View?
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07:31:51 <kmc> shachaf: haven't
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12:14:23 <shachaf> Saizan: How did you end up in this channel?
12:16:23 <shachaf> Yes. That's why I asked which road.
12:18:45 <Saizan> shachaf: i've seen it mentioned here and there, and i was looking for somewhere else to lurk
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13:06:17 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy hey do you like domain theory problems.................
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13:35:05 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy also, how many functions of type () -> () -> ()
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15:17:06 <boily> qatar wants to grab the ICAO headquarters from us! http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/transports/201304/23/01-4643911-le-qatar-veut-ravir-loaci-a-montreal.php
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18:54:49 <Vorpal> Is there a tool like nice or ionice for setting the scheduler? I mean the stuff that sched_getscheduler(2) does
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19:27:48 <Vorpal> aha, found it in the schedtool package.
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20:16:14 <mnoqy> `welcome crazyPussy123333
20:16:19 <HackEgo> crazyPussy123333: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:19:22 <Taneb> crazyPussy123333: can you confirm that you are indeed an insane feline?
20:19:42 <Taneb> Or perhaps a large number of said maladjusted mammals
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20:37:06 <boily> bye augur, bye my bot!
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20:55:41 <mnoqy> `welcome dudeForExample85
20:55:43 <HackEgo> dudeForExample85: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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21:00:28 <mnoqy> `welcome john_metcalf
21:00:30 <HackEgo> john_metcalf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:00:40 <john_metcalf> So who's an expert at finding stuff that's hidden away somewhere on the net?
21:01:03 <mnoqy> how expert/hidden/somewhere are we talking here
21:02:41 <john_metcalf> I'm looking for Jintori. It's a Japanese two-dimensional programming language from the late eighties or early nineties. Used for a two dimensional programming game of the same name.
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21:12:06 <Taneb> john_metcalf: like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnage_Heart ?
21:12:09 <FireFly> maybe this is relevant: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftech-tokyo.com%2F%3Fp%3D4147
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21:15:53 * FireFly wonders how many computer games called Jintori controlled by a specialised programming language there are
21:20:58 <FireFly> I found a post that mentions a "Core Wars-like game" called Jintori, in which programs compute in two-dimensional space
21:25:08 <FireFly> https://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.corewar/msg/1996dfe8c5903977?dmode=source this here contains some source code
21:25:31 <FireFly> er wait, maybe those are just file separators
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21:26:33 <john_metcalf> I've tried an Archie search... Not sure if it's worth a Gopher search?
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21:31:40 <john_metcalf> At least I assume it's the correct EXE. It kills DosBox :-( Found it here http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/dl/dos/game/se002172.html
21:32:43 <elliott> Vorpal: you like optimising PNGs, right?
21:33:42 <pikhq> john_metcalf: I'd be pretty surprised if that works well in common DOS installs.
21:38:14 <pikhq> Given the age, it's probably not for PC-compatibles.
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21:42:29 <pikhq> Hell, could plausibly be for the MSX.
21:43:28 <pikhq> It's for PC-98 MS-DOS.
21:43:44 <pikhq> You're gonna need an actual PC-98 emulator; DOSBox won't work.
21:44:22 <pikhq> (PC-98 is an x86 based platform that was popular in Japan in the 80s. It was *not* IBM compatible, but it did use MS-DOS.)
21:44:57 <olsner> 80s? I always thought 98 meant 1998
21:45:06 <pikhq> No, it shipped in 1982.
21:45:34 <pikhq> Windows 95 is what finally killed it, because 95 didn't run on a PC-98.
21:48:00 <olsner> wikipedia claims 1982..2000
21:51:18 <olsner> http://www.pc-9800.net/db_98/data/img/pc-9821ra43_l.jpg
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22:23:00 <kmc> so someone ported MS-DOS to this platform?
22:24:05 <elliott> presumably it was "compatible enough" to run MS-DOS or something?
22:24:32 <pikhq> No, it had a custom build of MS-DOS.
22:25:06 <kmc> don't a lot of DOS programs use PC BIOS features directly rather than going through DOS for everything?
22:25:12 <kmc> i imagine those wouldn't work well
22:25:16 <kmc> did they have an emulation layer for that?
22:25:20 <pikhq> PC-98 stuff used the PC-98 BIOS instead.
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22:41:31 <nooodl^> hey doesnt practically everyone here come from France?? because I'm in Paris riiight now
22:42:49 <Fiora> I thought it was Hexham that everyone was from
22:43:55 <elliott> i think we have like two french people?? plus boily who is fake french
22:45:14 <john_metcalf> Have you bumped into Fabrice Bellard yet? He's probably lurking nearby...
22:49:56 <coppro> I'm the token canehdian
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23:03:36 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabrice_Bellard I think?
23:04:00 <elliott> i think i need to get rid of my ™ key it's too addictive
23:06:06 <Fiora> http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2001/bellard.c oh my gosh @_@ he did this
23:06:08 <Fiora> http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2001/bellard.hint
23:06:23 <Fiora> he submitted a c compiler to the ioccc
23:06:37 <elliott> that compiler later turned into tcc
23:06:50 <elliott> which was then used to make a linux bootloader that actually compiled the kernel from scratch every time you booted it up
23:07:26 <Bike> why would you want to do that
23:08:17 <Fiora> bellard seems a very "Because it's there" type of person
23:08:23 <Fiora> "In 2011, he created a minimal PC emulator written in pure JavaScript"
23:09:05 <Fiora> (I wonder why his compiler won 'best abuse of rules' though?)
23:10:09 <elliott> huh, good question. it doesn't seem to be "tricksy" in itself
23:11:05 <elliott> oh hey, David Madore (of Unlambda) fame was one of the winners of last IOCCC
23:14:54 <pikhq> Y'know, I've been kinda curious about how bad a PC emulator would *be* to write if you aren't particularly performance-minded.
23:15:46 <Fiora> it's probably still pretty tricky? like it says he had to write an interrupt controller, interrupt timer and stuff
23:15:52 <Fiora> not even just a CPU, like, the CPU alone isn't enough
23:16:56 <Fiora> http://bellard.org/jslinux/tech.html ah
23:17:02 <Fiora> wow it even emulates an IDE hard drive
23:17:17 <Fiora> it has an MMU too O_O
23:18:09 <pikhq> Amused it's using a UART for output.
23:18:18 <pikhq> Though I guess it makes sense. VGA is tricky, even in text mode.
23:18:55 <pikhq> And really quite unsurprised he didn't emulate the FPU.
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23:58:18 <Fiora> Bike, maybe other people: http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2009/ai_systems_of_l4d_mike_booth.pdf this is really really cool and interesting
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02:36:30 <elliott> @tell ais523 is the "Disallow" action somehow preventing the "Block" action?
02:36:38 <elliott> @tell ais523 maybe it's only meant to have the latter or something (see AbuseLog)
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03:56:18 <kmc> fabrice bellard fan club
03:56:44 <kmc> i forgot he did ffmpeg too, jeez
03:56:48 <shachaf> hey that sounds like a good club
03:57:40 <kmc> hi shachaf
03:58:31 <kmc> shachaf: i should get a job, where should i work
03:58:57 <pikhq> Personally, I work at "becoming sane".
03:59:05 <shachaf> kmc: i might ask you the same question
03:59:18 <Bike> You should work for each other.
03:59:18 <shachaf> one of your goals in life was never working at a company with more than ~10 people, right?
03:59:22 <Bike> Cycle up that hierarchical graph
03:59:32 <kmc> shachaf: don't think so
03:59:43 <kmc> I already worked at a place with 100 people that grew to like 250 while i was there
03:59:46 <kmc> it wasn't the best tho...
03:59:55 <Bike> gosh, what happens if you fail a life goal
03:59:59 <elliott> kmc once worked at oracle*
04:01:14 <kmc> i don't know what's the best size for me
04:04:51 <elliott> kmc: found a haskell company. i'll join solely to complain about how much haskell sucks. success guaranteed
04:05:32 <shachaf> so you don't like finance and you don't like web startups?
04:06:11 <elliott> kmc if you keep laughing at me I might quit
04:06:16 <kmc> pretty sure i've had enough of finance yes
04:06:23 <kmc> don't know about web startups, hard to generalize from one experience
04:06:28 <Bike> at this juncture may i offer my services as laugh-eater
04:06:38 <Bike> hire me to be laughed at for you. satisfaction moderately guaranteed
04:22:21 <shachaf> kmc: maybe there are relevant jobs in SF
04:24:44 <kmc> i think i would like to move to SF
04:24:49 <kmc> but should find a job there first
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04:53:42 <Fiora> it's probably easier to pick the right place to live after getting a job anyways, even
04:54:44 <shachaf> kmc: have you considered a mobile social local startup instead of a web startup
04:55:29 <shachaf> ok maybe i´m nоt being helpful
04:55:37 <shachaf> mnoqy: did you work it out
04:56:19 <mnoqy> is this about the () -> () -> () thing
04:56:25 <mnoqy> ive gotten better at ignoring those
04:57:06 <shachaf> you're not a very good addict............................
04:57:45 <Bike> monqy is my hero.
04:59:07 <shachaf> Fiora: hey i thought i was your hero!!
04:59:35 <shachaf> can i at least be mnoqy's hero
04:59:55 <HackEgo> heroux: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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05:00:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26762
05:00:55 <Bike> Fiora: That wasn't you, was it?
05:01:42 <shachaf> Bike: can i have more than one hero
05:12:07 <Bike> The anonymous messages?
05:12:22 <Fiora> anonymous messages?
05:13:49 <Bike> The ones on my tumblr, and no.
05:14:21 <Fiora> is it like a love confession or something?
05:14:52 <elliott> it was me. i love you Bike
05:14:52 <Bike> "Once upon my time, you were my hero. Now, even though I understand you less and less, my opinion hasn't changed much."
05:14:56 <Bike> an odd thing to receive.
05:15:00 <Bike> elliott: fuck you
05:15:42 <Fiora> oh. definitely not me
05:16:35 <mnoqy> im glad i dont get weird messages like that (joke's)
05:16:40 <elliott> is elliot identical to me except that they like bikes
05:16:46 <elliott> lacks the extra bike-hating t
05:16:54 <Fiora> @ship elliott/Bike
05:17:06 <shachaf> i'm more of a fan of shipping & handling
05:17:12 <elliott> sometimes i wake up and my name has grown more consonants
05:17:54 <mnoqy> what else is an "elliott name"
05:20:25 <shachaf> Bike: you have "google analytics" so you can probably find out some things about your secret admirer
05:20:29 <fizzie> Conax Elliott, the cable TV conditional-access guy.
05:21:00 <Bike> I also have apathy.
05:21:41 <Bike> I'm not sure how google analytics would help, though.
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05:23:20 <shachaf> You can probably look up people who were at blah.tumblr.com/ask?
05:23:25 <shachaf> Unless they were "cautious".
05:24:02 <elliott> i would ask Bike a question right now to foil him except i don't actually know what the url is, and also i block analytics.
05:24:09 <Bike> Google can do that?
05:31:11 <shachaf> elliott: the url is http://bike.tumblr.com/ask
05:31:58 <Fiora> http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/ask I have one tooo
05:34:11 <elliott> I can't give both of you questions! I'd go bankrupt
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05:34:29 <Jafet> "How I met your tumblr"
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05:35:39 <fizzie> Hey, you Internet people, you know these things; what's the difference between a blog and one of those "thumbers" or whatever.
05:36:25 <mnoqy> i found the answer on wayback machine like 2 years ago but then i forgot it
05:36:34 <Bike_> Nothing of import.
05:36:43 <fizzie> Maybe I should've put that in one of those above-mentioned places, if they are some sort of answering machines.
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05:37:17 <mnoqy> Tumblelogs are blogs with less fuss and more stuff. Tumblr is your friendly and free tool for creating tumblelogs.
05:37:33 <Fiora> tumblr is just a blog host basically?
05:37:35 <mnoqy> -tumblr circa 2007
05:37:57 <Fiora> with some extra features, like if you make an account, you can follow people (like an rss reader I guess?)
05:38:05 <Fiora> and like posts, and message people, and so on
05:38:10 <shachaf> it's like twitter but for pictures of cats
05:38:20 <Fiora> it's a little bit like livejournal, except more media-oriented?
05:38:24 <Bike> Or pictures of cephalopods.
05:38:38 <mnoqy> Tumblelogs are the easiest
05:38:38 <mnoqy> way to express yourself.
05:38:38 <mnoqy> Post anything. Tumblr makes it effortless to share text, photos, quotes, links, music, and videos, from your browser, phone, desktop, email, or wherever you happen to be.
05:38:39 <shachaf> Or pictures of haruspices.
05:38:41 <mnoqy> Customize everything. Tweak everything from colors to your theme's HTML markup. Even use your own domain name.
05:38:44 <mnoqy> Sign up and see why so many people love Tumblr.
05:38:49 <Bike> Or pictures of haruspicy, yes
05:39:31 <mnoqy> "Tumbleogs are the refreshingly simple new way to share anything you find, love, hate, or create."
05:40:10 <mnoqy> What's a tumblelog?
05:40:10 <mnoqy> To make a simple analogy: If blogs are journals, tumblelogs are scrapbooks.
05:40:10 <mnoqy> You can also look at tumblelogs as slightly more structured blogs that make it easier, faster, and more fun to post and share stuff you find or create.
05:40:13 <mnoqy> You can find more information on Wikipedia.
05:40:38 <shachaf> Bike: http://slbkbs.org/sigh.txt
05:40:40 <Bike> mnoqy you sellout!
05:40:51 <fizzie> I'm also still intrigued as to how eliot knew that one guy. (Except that the answer is probably something really boring, like "from some other Freenode channel".)
05:40:57 <Fiora> that's actually a pretty good description
05:41:00 <mnoqy> sorry i have a thing for looking at sites on wayback
05:41:09 <elliott> fizzie: i'll tell you...... if you op me
05:41:13 <Bike> shachaf: bahaha, i should show feep that
05:41:15 <mnoqy> one time i found a really cool picture on an old google site
05:41:38 <Bike> shachaf: why are you espering, anyhow
05:41:40 <Fiora> um. I guess we went from sending asks to explaining what a blog is
05:41:47 <fizzie> I should have: guessed: what was coming.
05:42:09 <mnoqy> didnt know anyone "did" that
05:42:37 <shachaf> Bike: because all the cool people are on espernet i guess
05:42:47 <Fiora> a lot of my friends are there...
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05:42:59 <Bike_> shachaf: a common misconception, it's actually for ice giants
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05:43:17 <shachaf> fizzie: Who was "that one guy"?
05:43:21 <shachaf> Bike_: ice giants are p. cool
05:45:58 <fizzie> shachaf: The guy who came to my place at the university and said nasty, hurtful things about speech recognition, and also predictable (after the first part) things about opping people.
05:46:27 <mnoqy> shachaf: why did you do that thing that you did
05:46:40 <shachaf> fizzie: Oh, you didn't know him?
05:47:03 <shachaf> mnoqy: should i "un do" that thing
05:47:08 <fizzie> I sorta-know him. Not terribly well.
05:47:46 <mnoqy> bad timing if you wanted to see anything happen!! other than embarrassing me in front of ??nobody at the moment??
05:48:13 <shachaf> if you want me to i'll leave
05:48:14 <fizzie> I think he's trying to woo a female colleague from our group, based purely on the fact that I hear them TALKING quite often. (And it doesn't sound like WORK STUFF to me! So QED.)
05:48:25 <mnoqy> im unsure how to best handle this situation
05:48:34 <shachaf> fizzie: are you trying to woo anybody
05:48:57 <shachaf> mnoqy: did i put you in an uncomfortable situation :(
05:49:29 <fizzie> No. Well, unless, I don't know, maybe my wife counts, if it's some sort of a permanent process? I don't know.
05:49:49 <shachaf> Fiora: should fizzie woo someone
05:50:17 <fizzie> Like, when you stop "wooing", they leave? Is that how it works?
05:50:44 <fizzie> We certainly talk quite a bit on non-business matters, so by my own set criteria...
05:51:21 <lambdabot> *** "woo" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:51:22 <lambdabot> v 1: seek someone's favor; "China is wooing Russia" [syn: {woo},
05:51:22 <lambdabot> 2: make amorous advances towards; "John is courting Mary" [syn:
05:51:23 <lambdabot> {woo}, {court}, {romance}, {solicit}]
05:52:05 <shachaf> fizzie: if i woo you would your wife mind
05:53:02 <fizzie> Not unless I actually get woofied, I guess? It is a mystery.
05:56:54 <fizzie> That would be a decision, and doing one sets bad precedence.
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05:59:46 <elliott> fizzie: consider that inaction is a decision too
05:59:58 <shachaf> Bike: Are you one of those people who changes nicks all the time?
06:01:08 <Bike> Not so much anymore.
06:01:31 <shachaf> That's a banning offense in some channels.
06:01:44 <elliott> Bike: were you ever "Bicycle"
06:01:54 <Bike> elliott: No, that's stupid.
06:02:29 <Bike> Oh, I was in January for a while, because of shachaf's foul influence.
06:03:16 <elliott> Bike: it fits you! (re: stupid)
06:03:29 <shachaf> (because of my fowl influence)
06:03:31 <Bike> elliott: well played sir
06:05:25 <fizzie> Were you ever "Recumbent"? (I have a strange fascination towards recumbent bicycles.)
06:06:08 <mnoqy> shachaf: what do you mean
06:06:25 <shachaf> mnoqy: am i causing "a scene"
06:07:34 <Fiora> fizzie: talking about not work things
06:07:38 <Fiora> ... I think bike is trying to woo me
06:07:40 <Fiora> bike are you trying to woo me
06:07:43 <Fiora> you're talking about not work things
06:08:07 <shachaf> Fiora really wants to be wood by Bike
06:08:15 <Bike> I don't know what you do for work, so by the open world assumption you do everything for work, so I don't talk about non-work things with you.
06:08:26 <shachaf> but what if the wooer is........ the wooee
06:10:36 <shachaf> Bike: i'm not sure you should be doing that.........
06:11:57 <shachaf> Tomorrow I'll go see _Voyage_ by Tom Stoppard.
06:13:02 <Bike> "♥ ❥ 😍 😻❣" i have thrown the universe into chaos.
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06:14:04 <Fiora> shachaf: being wooed by bike would not be that bad
06:15:07 <Bike> Fiora: Mon chere, pepe, maginot line.
06:15:23 <Bike> I'm wooing you.
06:16:15 <shachaf> this is america! we woo in english here!
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06:16:55 <elliott> fizzie: in: re: wooing: "I hope he's not right, or my girlfriend is going to be angry."
06:17:30 <mnoqy> shachaf: so is this a "role play" thing
06:18:00 <pikhq> Fiora: Perhaps I should woo you.
06:18:04 <mnoqy> this whole wooing thing
06:18:09 <pikhq> Consider thyself wooed.
06:18:09 <mnoqy> like what's up with that all of a sudden
06:18:27 <shachaf> mnoqy: oh fizzie started that
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06:31:08 <shachaf> fizzie: did you woo your wife "back in the day"
06:31:12 <shachaf> and/or did your wife woo you
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06:35:08 <shachaf> you know the puzzle about "8" shapes on a plane??
06:36:52 <shachaf> the puzzle is: how many "8" shapes (let's say that an 8 shape is two circles tangent to each other) can you fit on the real plane?
06:37:26 <Bike> On. I thought you meant like a plane you go flying in.
06:38:51 <shachaf> Bike: oh and they can't intersect
06:38:59 <shachaf> "kind of important to mention that"
06:39:02 <Bike> Can you put one inside another?
06:39:50 <Bike> Probably not countable.
06:41:12 <shachaf> You say you can fit uncountably many non-intersecting 8s on a real plane?
06:44:14 <Bike> Well, you can fit countably many 8s inside one another matryoshka-style, no? Then do that all over the plane.
06:45:20 <shachaf> That still sounds countable?
06:45:21 <mnoqy> is this one of those conjectures OR independent of traditional axiom's
06:46:12 <Bike> oh i guess that would be countable huh
06:46:31 <shachaf> what's the conjecture i mean
06:46:39 <shachaf> there's an answer to the puzzle
06:46:55 <shachaf> people know the answer iff they are cool
06:48:31 <fizzie> shachaf: I think it was mostly the latter. I mean, she did most of the work, if you know what I mean. (I don't know what that means.)
06:49:13 <fizzie> elliott: Well can he explain the GIGGLING? (I guess it might be just that he's a funny guy.)
06:54:48 <pikhq> shachaf: Well, given that each 8 shape can be of infinitisimal size, I'm thinking it's uncountable. Sadly I'm not sure how to go about a proof of that.
06:55:08 <shachaf> pikhq: No, each 8 has to be of a finite size. :-)
06:55:42 <pikhq> "Arbitrarily close to 0" is a finite size! :P
07:01:51 <fizzie> I think I've heard that you can only put a countable amount of nonintersecting discs on a plane, at least.
07:02:40 <fizzie> It has something to do with Q^2 being "dense".
07:03:42 <shachaf> fizzie: You can easily do uncountably many nonintersecting circles, though.
07:03:55 <shachaf> E.g. for every real number make a circle with that radius with center (0,0)
07:04:19 <fizzie> Oh, right, your "8" was just two circles.
07:05:05 <pikhq> Doesn't quite work with the two circles though. I mean, there may be another way, but that particular schema doesn't.
07:05:47 <fizzie> Let's just say that two circles where the centers have the same x coordinate is still "8 enough". (Then it should work.)
07:06:21 <shachaf> fizzie: No, they'll intersect.
07:06:48 <fizzie> shachaf: Not if the sizes are from the open interval (0, 1), into which I'm sure you can map all of R.
07:07:14 <shachaf> How do you make it not intersect?
07:07:19 <fizzie> Maybe I should draw a picture?
07:10:25 <fizzie> Like, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130425-Drawing1.png
07:11:11 <fizzie> (I did say I modified your definition of 8 to something quite a bit less 8-like.)
07:11:39 <shachaf> Oh, no, they have to touch.
07:11:46 <shachaf> 23:36 <shachaf> the puzzle is: how many "8" shapes (let's say that an 8 shape is two circles tangent to each other) can you fit on the real plane?
07:11:46 <pikhq> fizzie: Sneaky. :P
07:11:56 <fizzie> shachaf: [10:05:46] <fizzie> Let's just say that two circles where the centers have the same x coordinate is still "8 enough". (Then it should work.)
07:12:02 <pikhq> Yeah, the tangentness makes this a lot harder.
07:12:37 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, I assumed you were doing that without breaking the rules.
07:12:51 <fizzie> I don't see how you can do that without breaking the rules.
07:13:05 <pikhq> fizzie: Two circles of different size tangent to each other.
07:13:31 <shachaf> pikhq: Oh, also, one circle of the 8 can't be inside the other circle.
07:13:44 <shachaf> (I'm not sure whether that makes a difference?)
07:16:00 <pikhq> Hmm. This can be rephrased with "how many tangent circles can you tile the real plane with", I think.
07:17:35 <fizzie> I mean, I don't see how you can do "two circles where the centers have the same x coordinate is also an 8" without breaking the rules by definition; I don't think *that* needs a proof.
07:17:39 <fizzie> (Not that I see how you'd do the original thing either.)
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07:18:53 <shachaf> fizzie: The outermost circles in your picture have that property?
07:19:21 <pikhq> Yeah, it can definitely just be an additional restriction.
07:22:05 <fizzie> shachaf: OKAY, if you want to be like that. But it really should have written differently if it was an additional constraint; now it's just saying what else is an 8.
07:22:43 <shachaf> fizzie: I thought you were saying: You can do it with 8s (as defined previously) that also have this additional property!
07:28:45 <fizzie> If you could fit a disc inside any 8 that you could guarantee is not inside any other 8 (say, by some argumentation of what 8s look like), you could reduce it to the disc thing.
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07:31:28 <fizzie> (I broke down, and went and looked up a clever answer that also uses Q^2.)
07:34:39 <elliott> fizzie: I feel a great disturbance in the Gregor voice force.
07:34:48 <elliott> it seems that he needs to also be opped temporarily to maintain universal balance.
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09:21:32 <elliott> fizzie: do YOU like optimising PNGs???
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10:06:31 <elliott> but to the nick you'd expect
10:06:39 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
10:06:46 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
10:07:09 <ais523_> elliott: in response to that message, I'd say it's worth a try, at least
10:14:19 <shachaf> 19:36 <elliott> @tell ais523 is the "Disallow" action somehow preventing the "Block" action?
10:14:22 <shachaf> 19:36 <elliott> @tell ais523 maybe it's only meant to have the latter or something (see AbuseLog)
10:15:41 <elliott> you get to change it; I'm too terrified of abusefilter
10:16:00 <elliott> OTOH, maybe it's best if they just get silently blocked for all eternity rather than spamming recent changes
10:16:25 <elliott> they /do/ only seem to try a finite number of times
10:16:55 <ais523_> we don't have an autoconfirm timeout
10:17:16 <ais523_> so there's no real difference between blocking them and forcing them to create a new account, or them just trying on their existing account
10:17:40 <ais523_> that said, I'm not sure what an abusefilter block looks like
10:17:44 <ais523_> it might not show up in recent changes at all
10:18:54 <elliott> ideally, instead of blocking it'd delete their account to clean up the goddamn user list :P
10:19:20 <elliott> it seems like disabling all the old captchas has stopped spam registrations entirely for now, anyway
10:19:32 <ais523_> yeah, they must have got a human to compile answers to the captchas
10:19:36 <ais523_> and then just set their bots on it
10:19:59 <elliott> question is whether they care enough to do it again
10:20:33 <elliott> if they do, we'll have to get smarter, since it's hard to come up with good plain constant question/answer captchas that are easy for humans to solve
10:20:41 <elliott> as in, humans who don't necessarily know much about esolangs
10:20:52 <elliott> since I don't really believe not knowing brainfuck should be a barrier to entry or whatever
10:23:23 <ais523_> elliott: the way that clc.intercal.org.uk does it is to ask people to evaluate a random INTERCAL expression, and gives a link to a page that contains the answer
10:23:36 <ais523_> the documentation is actually dynamic, it uses the most recently set CAPTCHA as its example
10:23:50 <ais523_> obviously this is trivially automatable around, just nobody has tried yet
10:25:31 <elliott> ais523_: another thing is how much of a burden it is to answer
10:25:35 <elliott> remember that every anonymous edit has to go through this
10:25:45 <elliott> and we'd like to encourage anonymous edits
10:25:51 <elliott> (as opposed to no edits at all)
10:26:52 <ais523_> the CLC-INTERCAL thing isn't a burden because following a link and copying a number isn't a burden
10:28:18 <elliott> hmm, says the guy who never clicks links
10:28:39 <elliott> our captchas already involve link-clicking, anyway :)
10:31:28 <Jafet> Good ol' shachafbot.
10:33:28 <shachaf> Jafetbot: solve for n: e ^ (-n * (n+1) / (2*d)) = 0.5
10:35:58 <Jafet> I will not be unterbot.
10:53:44 <shachaf> Jafet: solve for n: 1 - e ^ (-n * (n+1) / (2*d)) = 0.5
10:59:41 <fizzie> Wolfram: solve for n: 1 - e ^ (-n * (n+1) / (2*d)) = 0.5. -> http://sprunge.us/hWBO
11:00:49 <fizzie> If I type "mathematica", I think it will try to start up a graphical extravaganca.
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12:25:41 <elliott> proof irrelevance is the worst thing ever. :(
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12:36:10 <Jafet> Proof Erasure could be a good band name
12:38:42 <Jafet> A metal band might want to go for Chains of Judgement instead. (Cut Rule is probably too emo.)
12:38:54 <fizzie> Prof. Erasure, a distinguished mathematician.
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13:11:12 <fizzie> My workstation... splonked. I can't figure out a better word. It hung up as far as keyboard/screen are concerned, so I ssh'd in and killed gnome-session; now it's in framebuffer console, where pressing enter echoes out "^\", and releasing it echoes a square.
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13:11:30 <fizzie> In fact, releasing any key makes a square.
13:11:43 <fizzie> But the space bar inserts "9"s.
13:12:40 <fizzie> 1, 2 and 4 result in ^B, ^C and ^E, respectively. I guess it's in some sort of very uncooked mode.
13:14:06 <fizzie> Aren't these things supposed to have a thing where I can briefly press the power button to initiate a controlled shutdown?
13:15:18 <oerjan> you can always try ghc -e launchMissiles
13:16:09 <fizzie> Heh, the power button also echoes [square]^[square] when pressed.
13:17:39 <fizzie> oerjan: <interactive>:1:1: Not in scope: `launchMissiles'
13:17:43 <fizzie> oerjan: I take it there's something wrong with my GHC install.
13:17:59 <oerjan> fizzie: or something very right.
13:18:43 <fizzie> As soon as that computer boots; it's too annoying with a phone.
13:18:51 <oerjan> itt we determine how much insulting it takes to get fizzie to actually do something oppy
13:19:44 <elliott> fizzie: op me and i'll fix fungot
13:20:00 <fizzie> Oh, fixing fungot is "oppy"?
13:20:20 <elliott> fizzie: it can be if you collaborate!
13:20:42 <fizzie> I try to fix it, but it's not FIXATING.
13:21:43 <fizzie> > let fungot = fix in fix fungot
13:21:44 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> a0
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13:28:14 <elliott> <elliott> fizzie: I feel a great disturbance in the Gregor voice force. <elliott> it seems that he needs to also be opped temporarily to maintain universal balance.
13:28:28 <elliott> see? if I am opped you can rely on me for sound Gregor mode policies, even before you realise their need.
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13:40:16 <fizzie> On that topic, http://sprunge.us/LNJX
13:43:22 <elliott> fizzie: so in other words, you should op me so that I can be the shadowy figure behind the figurehead rule of Gregor.
13:43:25 * oerjan thinks that was from h2g2
13:46:28 <fizzie> On that note, should I go and play substitute teacher? The machine learning course lecturer is sick, and there's a lecture tomorrow.
13:47:07 <elliott> fizzie: well it'd certainly be a step up from your speech recognition work
13:47:24 <fizzie> I don't know about that, it's about approximate inference.
13:58:15 <fizzie> "Approximate Inference -- Consistency Methods -- Pretend that p is actually an instance of a distribution in a tractable family (eg a tree), and run the algorithm for the tractable family, but with parameters set from p. Cross your fingers and hope for the best."
13:58:44 <fizzie> Esp. calling it "Consistency Methods" is a nice touch, it sounds all proper and impressive.
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14:14:30 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> sometimes i wake up and my name has grown more consonants
14:14:37 <HackEgo> 1037) <elliott> sometimes i wake up and my name has grown more consonants
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15:08:46 <oerjan> `olist #Not entirely sure if this is new
15:08:48 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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15:13:40 <elliott> note to self: sleep-deprived Coq never goes well.
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15:34:24 <fizzie> A HTML renderer? A 3D ray-thingamabob? A something else altogether?
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17:07:23 <Taneb> Answer a question someone posted on Facebook
17:07:27 <Taneb> He says "Who are you?" back.
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17:29:13 <Taneb> Who is Phil Plait?
17:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> an astronomer who writes about astronomy on the internet
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17:31:31 <FireFly> ThatOtherPerson: good idea, raytracers are fun to hack on
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17:40:30 <Taneb> Seeing as neither iPlayer nor 4od have Game of Thrones
17:40:41 <Taneb> Paying people money seems like the best option
17:40:50 <Taneb> I suggest starting by paying me money
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17:41:35 <Taneb> But then you don't get the new episodes
17:41:42 <Taneb> Which presumably you are up to
17:41:50 <Taneb> Could you stream them online somewhere?
17:44:13 <Taneb> Could you torrent on a different port?
17:46:30 <Taneb> Or ask someone to torrent them for you and mail them to you on a USB
17:47:01 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
17:47:22 <Taneb> Are the IT folk after you
17:47:31 <Taneb> If they are, run. Never stop running.
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17:57:26 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: good luck
17:57:39 <Taneb> Remember what I taught you
17:58:56 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: shall I start being lawful good again? or would that not help?
17:59:36 <Taneb> ais523: we must all be chaotic good and save Phantom__Hoover from the authorities
17:59:47 <Taneb> Catch the next train to Coventry
18:00:21 <Taneb> Because #esoteric sticks together
18:03:06 <ThatOtherPerson> let's hack into the universe and teleport the IT people away from Phantom__Hoover
18:03:51 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: go for it
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18:05:55 <ThatOtherPerson> They have blood? I would have thought that they would have blood
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18:20:57 <ais523> this conversation is great in a client that filters colors
18:21:09 <ais523> also, if "truth" and "beauty" aren't names for sorts of quarks yet, they should be
18:22:31 <ThatOtherPerson> Gregor: the logs aren't in color. Why aren't the logs in color?
18:23:11 <Jafet> New quarks to have media spin
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18:46:38 <Taneb> what did you just call me bitch
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20:23:37 <ais523> kmc: that isn't a valid response to helo
20:24:56 <kmc> OK computer
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20:31:30 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/932a7112a7c4db18add6f6e13dbd71c4/tumblr_mlsms516kW1qbsziao1_500.gif
20:34:21 <Bike> I dunno, Netflix had some silly categories for April Fool's.
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21:35:18 <shachaf> kmc: I was reading some logs and it sounds like kmc-of-a-few-years-ago was a lot less cynical.
21:35:26 <kmc> that'll happen
21:35:34 <kmc> any particular way, though?
21:36:12 <shachaf> Not exactly... I don't know.
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22:44:42 <Phantom_Hoover> jeeesus christ, the gemini missions lasted for /weeks/
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22:46:24 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
22:46:27 <Bike> "Primary objective was to determine whether humans could live in space for 14 days."
22:46:54 <SgeoN1> Sorry if someone else did ot
22:47:22 <Bike> By this time the novelty of spaceflight had worn off for the crew of Gemini 7. They had spent 11 days in space and had three more to go. They were doing little more than drifting around the Earth and the incentive of the rendezvous was over. Borman read Roughing It by Mark Twain and Lovell Drums along the Mohawk by Walter D. Edmonds.
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22:47:45 <Phantom__Hoover> and afaict there was much more capsule space than on gemini
22:50:18 <Bike> They read books.
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22:57:04 <Bike> `? phantom_____hoover
22:57:06 <HackEgo> phantom_____hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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00:32:41 <Bike> Fucking fantastic.
00:33:17 <Sgeo> `welcome drlemon
00:33:19 <HackEgo> drlemon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:33:52 <drlemon> Well it's good to hear that, as you so put it, is "Fucking fantastic"
00:35:06 <Bike> Yes. It is goddamn amazing to hear that we are fucking fantastic.
00:35:49 <drlemon> Fucking amazing to hear that the way you people (who are the fucking shit) are fucking fantastic.
00:36:41 <Gregor> Fucking fuck, fuckfucks!
00:37:00 <Gregor> ("Fuckfuck" is the best fuck-based portmanteau)
00:37:02 <drlemon> Fuck, fuck fucking. Fucker! Fuckers! Fucking fuckfuckfuck!
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00:46:44 <ais523> <spambot> To Unsubscribe please read the attached Unsubscribe.txt file
00:47:29 <ais523> I did, it was a one-line file containing only an URL
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00:51:33 -!- kmc has set topic: Soap with a prize inside | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:52:20 <Bike> whats the prize
00:54:28 <Sgeo> I'm so tempted to do unpaid work
00:54:58 <Sgeo> I kind of didn't focus on actually doing SOMETHING at work, instead waited around for an assignment that never came
00:55:05 <Sgeo> But I could have been cleaning my code up
00:55:11 <Sgeo> So I might just go do that tonight
00:57:21 <kmc> Bike: more soap
00:59:18 <kmc> "The Republican sympathizers in the proposed state of Nevada during the American Civil War were eager to gain statehood for Nevada before the next 1864 presidential election to help insure that Abraham Lincoln would have enough votes to win. They rushed to send the entire Nevada state constitution by telegraph to the United States Congress, which approved it and sent it to the President Lincoln for signature."
01:01:55 <Bike> to this day, the constitution is separated into 130-character blocks
01:04:31 <drlemon> Does anybody know a pre-compiled BF interpreter for maC?
01:07:04 <Gregor> I think people who play with BF usually a pretty willing to dirty their hands with gcc ;)
01:08:18 <kmc> but also you can get brainfuck interpreters in perl or python or ruby or javascript that runs right in your browser
01:08:34 <kmc> brainfuck may be one of the most-implemented programming languages in the world
01:09:14 <madbr> probability of implementation = 1 / complexity
01:14:29 <Sgeo> Currently need a non-browser-based implementation to play with PSOX though
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05:41:58 <Fiora> kmc: I feel really awkward, unlike channels like ##c I feel like I actually might know more about crypto than some of the people there <.<
05:42:38 <Bike> ##crypto? really?
05:43:23 <Fiora> it... doesn't really seem to have a lot of crypto experts ._.
05:43:58 <Fiora> I mean like maybe there's negatives to ##c like channels where it is like "let me hit you over the head with the spec"
05:44:14 <Fiora> but there's also "wouldn't it be a great idea to pick an image off the internet and use it as a one time pad for all my data"
05:44:33 <kmc> i dunno, so far I've been pleasantly surprised with ##crypto
05:44:48 <kmc> this is the first really clueless person and he/she doesn't seem to be serious about these bad ideas
05:44:55 <kmc> just exploring what the ramifications would be
05:44:57 <kmc> which is fine
05:45:12 <Fiora> I guess so people have beaten me over the head less for being clueless so maybe it's not as bad
05:45:30 <Bike> clearly fiora's an elitist
05:45:53 <Fiora> I am just spoiled and want to stare starry-eyed at the people who do things like differential cryptanalysis
05:45:58 <Fiora> while I understand nothing they say
05:48:43 <Fiora> um. what does one call it if one is like. half elitist. like you want to be around people way better than you <.<
05:49:27 <Fiora> that I can't I can't argue with that
05:49:29 <Bike> it's true! you latch on to Cool People and maybe occasionally get disdainful of the lesser beings!
05:55:38 <Fiora> this is all me being a dumb fangirl sorry
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06:12:01 <fizzie> Fiora: You should go camp out in front of a NSA building with binoculars.
06:12:07 <fizzie> Fiora: I'm sure they won't take it the wrong way.
06:12:25 <Fiora> that's not what I mean >_<
06:12:36 <fizzie> You'd get to see cryptites.
06:12:42 <fizzie> (Cryptography people.)
06:14:03 <fizzie> We have a real cryptographer (read: someone who's got something named after her) teaching the crypto courses here. Or at least had. I think we still do.
06:14:15 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaisa_Nyberg <-- see, notable.
06:14:26 <fizzie> "-- perfect nonlinear S-boxes (now known as Nyberg S-boxes) --"
06:15:13 <fizzie> And the KN-Cipher, by Nyberg and Knudsen, I strongly suspect the names are relevant there too.
06:16:37 <Fiora> "provably secure", interesting
06:16:45 <fizzie> Also I think she's the lecturer who publishes exam answers, AES-128'd, before the exams.
06:16:52 <fizzie> At least one of them crypto people did.
06:16:58 <Fiora> that's... that's evil and wonderful
06:17:25 <fizzie> I think it's kind of like a "jest". (Maybe they're not even the right answers? Who knows.)
06:19:30 <fizzie> It just dawned on me that I don't have a (working) key to the classroom where I'm supposed to give a lecture. I hope there's someone around nearby who does.
06:21:02 <Bike> is your lecture about key exchange
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06:26:15 <fizzie> That would be too appropriate.
06:26:47 <fizzie> No, it's (mostly) about variational methods for approximate inference with probabilistic models.
06:26:59 <fizzie> I'm sure you can fit some sort of a pun in that, too.
06:27:23 <fizzie> Like, we'll be approximating being in the classroom with a solution constrained to the hallways.
06:27:41 <fizzie> And the minimum KL divergence is at the door.
06:27:46 <fizzie> There, that wasn't even very hard.
06:27:57 <kmc> do an impromptu pre-lecture on lockpicking
06:28:37 <fizzie> "Here's a lock. If you knew how to, you could pick it. As it is, does anyone have a brick?" (It's a mostly-glass door, IIRC.)
06:29:29 <fizzie> Last time I showed the electronic half of the lock my keycard, it started blinking in a red-green-red-green-... pattern, but didn't open. I'm not quite sure what it wanted to say.
06:29:42 <fizzie> "Eh, I could almost let you in, but maybe not," possibly.
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08:31:25 <fizzie> I think I'm starting to get the absent-mindedness thing down pretty well: I just walked out of the classroom with the projector remote.
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11:23:17 * Sgeo facepalms http://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/1d55zs/is_it_time_to_migrate_reddit_to_c_native_code_i/
11:25:05 <fizzie> I think it's intellectually dishonest that the URL says "c_native_code" when it was in reality C++.
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11:27:06 <shachaf> how is "onegin" pronounced
11:27:11 <ThatOtherPerson> Does reddit have technology limitations against +'s in URLs?
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12:17:27 <fizzie> The world has limitations against +'s, in that + is sometimes a .
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14:21:55 <Taneb> Should I upgrade Ubuntu
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14:25:22 <Taneb> 13.04 came out earlier this week
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14:29:38 <Taneb> The answer to the answer is I'm on Ubuntu now and things go wrong when I try to change things so I'm stuck
14:30:31 <boily> the answer to the answer to the answer is good morning all!
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14:33:46 <boily> say, is anyone of you in ottawa?
14:34:10 <Jafet> Upgrading Ubuntu is simple and easy: echo 'deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ unstable main' > /etc/apt/sources.list
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14:35:15 <Taneb> Jafet: that sounds worryingly like only doing what I want in the literal sense, while not actually giving me what I want
14:38:19 <Taneb> Indeed, it sounds very much like switching to Debian
14:40:31 <elliott> Taneb: doesn't upgrading count as changing things
14:40:52 <Taneb> But I've somehow already messed up my computer
14:41:11 <Taneb> So if I mess it up even more it may go full circle and be not messed up
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14:56:34 <elliott> where is monqy when you need him
14:57:58 <ais523> fwiw, switching sources from ubuntu to debian doesn't go cleanly at all
15:00:14 <boily> elliott: monqy is not in ottawa, therefore he is not useful now.
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15:01:57 <elliott> boily: are you saying you know Coq?
15:02:02 <elliott> I guess that makes sense, given that you're French
15:03:19 <boily> elliott: no, I don't know Coq. theoremy software scares me.
15:04:10 <Jafet> canadians on computers
15:05:53 <boily> that, too, scares me.
15:07:55 <Jafet> constructivism of quebec
15:09:17 <boily> eh? that's possible?
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15:12:37 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slymenstra_Hymen
15:14:18 <Jafet> “"My Girly Ways," on We Kill Everything, returns to a more metal-based sound as she sings about reviving character Scroda Moon, so that he may assemble a tablet and stop Gwar's Cosmic Master from destroying the universe.”
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16:18:23 <Taneb> I'm bored and thirsty for knowledge. Anyone willing to explain how bitcoin works?
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16:21:50 <ThatOtherPerson> Bitcoin seems really fascinating from what I've seen about it
16:28:08 <kmc> Taneb: i can explain
16:28:23 <kmc> i can explain the basics in probably fewer words than that paper
16:28:36 <kmc> but you should still read the paper
16:29:11 <Taneb> I'm reading the paper
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16:29:20 <Taneb> Could you answer questions once I've done?
16:30:20 <kmc> depends on the questions but i will try
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16:38:13 <Taneb> Well, the only thing that was making me think "bitcoin can't possibly workd" has turned out to be false
16:43:46 <Taneb> Basically, I had made a huge mistake about how bitcoin works
16:46:00 <fizzie> I wrote a curl-perl oneliner to check the current mtgoxUSD average rate, once, for a HackEgo `bitcoin command, but it didn't work, due to the proxy saying 403. I suppose there's maybe a whitelist or something? (Given that google.com works.)
16:46:22 <fizzie> fungot: Could you check bitcoin prices for me, please?
16:46:23 <fungot> fizzie: hmm. i think. sorry about that ais523 doesn't like his name revealed to the public?
16:46:56 <fizzie> fungot: That might be true, but it hardly has anything to do with bitcoins.
16:46:57 <fungot> fizzie: z0d wow. i'd program in perl are probably very clueless. joel said that? ( can try avoid buying it.
16:47:18 <fizzie> Sage advice regarding bitcoins: "can try avoid buying it".
16:47:20 <AnotherTest> fizzie: I did that once (it used python's urllib tho) and it worked fine
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16:47:44 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think the web-access situation has also changed now and then.
16:48:27 <AnotherTest> fizzie: they might block out certain user agents?
16:49:41 <ThatOtherPerson> fizzie: also, HackEgo's internet access is a little weird sometimes, it seems
16:50:53 <HackEgo> --2013-04-26 16:50:52-- http://www.google.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... failed: Connection refused.
16:51:07 <HackEgo> --2013-04-26 16:51:06-- http://www.github.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-04-26 16:51:06 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
16:51:42 <HackEgo> bash: whet: command not found
16:51:54 <HackEgo> --2013-04-26 16:51:53-- http://mtgox.com/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden \ 2013-04-26 16:51:53 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
16:52:21 <Taneb> It sounds like a problem on Gregor's end
16:52:36 <HackEgo> 2013-04-26 16:52:35 URL:http://www.github.co/ [1233/1233] -> "index.html.1" [1]
16:52:40 <HackEgo> 2013-04-26 16:52:39 URL:https://github.com/ [10571/10571] -> "index.html.2" [1]
16:53:04 <Gregor> The proxy has a whitelist of allowed domains.
16:53:12 <ThatOtherPerson> it has something to do with whatever sandboxing HackEgo has
16:53:14 <HackEgo> --2013-04-26 16:52:51-- http://esolangs.org/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2013-04-26 16:52:52-- (try: 2) http://esolangs.org/ \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \
17:00:51 <fizzie> AnotherTest: It's HackEgo's own, local proxy.
17:01:02 <fizzie> Oh, The Man answered already.
17:01:14 <fizzie> (I did guesstimate a whitelist.)
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18:31:50 <boily> @messages, I said.
18:31:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
18:31:58 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 that sucks
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18:32:45 <zzo38> ?messages No I meant messages!
18:32:54 <zzo38> I didn't mean messages?
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19:12:20 <oerjan> <ais523> also, if "truth" and "beauty" aren't names for sorts of quarks yet, they should be <-- i believe the names have been used, but officially they chickened out and made them top and bottom instead.
19:13:17 <elliott> wait, why would ais523 even have that thought if he didn't already know they were?
19:13:28 <oerjan> elliott: heck if i know
19:13:30 <ais523> elliott: I might have subconciously known it
19:15:05 <zzo38> Yes, "truth" is the same as "top" quark, and "beauty" is the same as "bottom" quark, so, they are name of quarks
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19:19:05 <oerjan> <SgeoN1> Sorry if someone else did ot <-- APOLOGY ACCEPTED
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20:13:36 <elliott> i like to imagine mezozoic is pronounced mezo-zwoir
20:21:29 <olsner> how does oic become woir?
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21:11:26 <pikhq> The wake for coppro will be held at all hours of the day, in irc://irc.freenode.net/#esoteric .
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21:29:58 <FireFly> fungot: what's your commentary of the situation?
21:29:59 <fungot> FireFly: hey that's cool... have found 6 streaming trance stations so far? are you gonna write a whole new meaning to losing one's virginity. not printing.
21:30:17 <fungot> FireFly: i'm really dying of fatigue and general malaise here, haven't even done anything today ( except for things like call/ cc
21:30:49 <FireFly> I hope coppro didn't die of fatigue
21:32:00 <fizzie> "haven't even done anything today except some call/cc".
21:32:30 <fizzie> Also good example of artificial sympathy for the initial reply.
21:32:39 <fizzie> fungot: I need to teach you some manners.
21:32:39 <fungot> fizzie: if you believe steele, java spec co-author, http://people.csail.mit.edu/ gregs/ ll1-discuss-archive-html/ fnord
21:34:39 <FireFly> fungot: I hear he's a fun guy
21:34:39 <fungot> FireFly: there must be like " fnord" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
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21:36:16 <fizzie> That sounds like a good URL for a fnord.
21:37:26 <fungot> olsner: well it's not compiling with current guile, i believe. at least my queue is too long, http://tinyurl.com/ fnord also too much?
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21:46:22 <coppro> I'm disappointed. You guys didn't even topic my departure :(
21:46:24 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:46:41 <olsner> coppro: what departure? you're still here
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21:48:29 <pikhq> coppro: I dispute that.
21:49:56 <coppro> pikhq: but you also don't dispute it, so I win
21:55:52 <olsner> I would like to know what fungot thinks about this
21:55:53 <fungot> olsner: what do the x's and d's mean? so if b is 1, read rest as number and we're done with it
21:57:20 <kmc> haven't even done anything today ( except for things like call/cc )
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22:51:34 <zzo38> It seems that there are at least three other users on Wikipedia who use Plain TeX.
22:54:03 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
22:54:47 <nooodl> zzo38: why do you use plain tex?
22:56:48 <zzo38> It is more portable than any other programming language. I also think it is a better quality than LaTeX and ConTeXt.
23:05:31 <Bike> are you in space
23:07:33 <Phantom__Hoover> double whoah: there were 3 for a while and then there were 2 later
23:08:19 <Bike> what happened to the one
23:08:38 <Bike> oh. well it was probably a jerk anyway
23:17:10 <zzo38> There seems at least two other Wikipedia users who play monster characters in Dungeons&Dragons game.
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23:50:15 <Sgeo> I... guess I can learn CSS without becoming a designer
23:50:35 <Bike> nope you're doomed
23:51:12 <Koen_> Sgeo: how's your new job?
23:51:38 <Sgeo> I hate writing 4 lines of code for what would be half a line in another languag
23:52:00 <Koen_> I see you like your new keyboard
23:52:07 <Bike> i hate writing four lines of english for what would be one line in english
23:52:08 <mnoqy> what did you expect
23:52:30 <shachaf> Bike: only one of those 4 lines was english
23:52:42 <zzo38> I made up two new Wikipedia userboxes.
23:52:45 <Bike> i hate writing four lines of gibberish etc
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23:55:55 <kmc> zzo38: which are they?
23:56:12 <Bike> http://www.mta.ca/~rhudson/papers/turku.htm more importantly
23:56:19 <kmc> Sgeo: it is a syntax error to write CSS while not wearing a black turtleneck
23:59:34 <Sgeo> Can setting font size to 1em have any effect?
23:59:50 <Sgeo> Why is an em the width of an m, and not, say, just a multiplier
00:00:01 <Bike> a multiplier of what?
00:00:32 <Bike> are you assuming every typeface is monospace
00:00:57 <Bike> anyway i think that definition of em is kind of outdated nowadays
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00:02:20 <zzo38> kmc: {{User:Zzo38/Userboxes/program famicom}} and {{User:Zzo38/Userboxes/text adventure game}}
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00:02:46 <zzo38> Oops! There is prefer DVD over VHS, and VHS over DVD, and Blu-ray over DVD, but they forgot preferring DVD over Blu-ray.
00:03:40 <Sgeo> Bike, I'm assuming that there's no reason for sizes to be an actual amount
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00:12:13 <kmc> Sgeo: it could override another font-size rule on the same element
00:13:11 <kmc> Sgeo: it is a multiplier of the font size. when you say "12 pt font", that means 1 em = 12 pt, where a pt is 1/72 of an inch
00:14:53 <kmc> i believe, but i'm not sure, that font-size: 2em; and font-size: 200%; have the same effect
00:15:11 <kmc> actually http://kyleschaeffer.com/user-experience/css-font-size-em-vs-px-vs-pt-vs/ says that they behave differently if the user activates the browser's font resizing feature
00:15:33 <kmc> anyway CSS has both % and em because in other contexts they mean something quite different
00:16:10 <kmc> "width: 50%" means '50% of the parent's size', "width: 0.5em" means '50% of a single em in the parent's font'
00:16:54 <kmc> mostly though http://img.pandawhale.com/post-18529-Yes-mlkshk-2jkG.gif
00:17:23 <Lumpio-> People who made that gif probably aren't very good at CSS.
00:17:24 <Bike> that window grubbing is kind of impressive
00:17:52 <kmc> Lumpio-: lol
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00:21:03 <kmc> my girlfriend has perfected a procedure for turning free copies of the Wall Street Journal into food
00:21:10 <kmc> by growing mushrooms on them
00:21:37 <kmc> the mushrooms are tasty and do not appear to have poisoned me or shifted my political views to the right
00:22:46 <Phantom__Hoover> i also suspect it would take some kind of massive rocket to shift your political views to the right
00:25:28 <kmc> what if i'm robbed by immigrants at knifepoint
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00:35:17 <pikhq> What if political views are modular?
00:36:24 <Sgeo> Is htmldog.com a good site?
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00:37:16 <Sgeo> cursive on my machine isn't very cursive lol
00:44:29 <Sgeo> You might also stumble across similar proprietary properties, such as -webkit-border-radius and -moz-border-radius which are for older, barely-used versions of Safari and Firefox respectively. Our carefully worded professional advice? Screw em.
00:44:34 <Sgeo> ^^from htmldog
00:47:00 <zzo38> Well, you might use the -moz- properties if you are writing a XUL application, rather than a webpage.
00:48:47 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/13b0bd5792b912e71aafc9b201ac0dba/tumblr_mllgbzm7xu1snfhwio1_1280.jpg
00:48:54 <Bike> people like jerkcity right
00:51:49 <Bike> oh it's "jerkcity hd" http://jerkcityhd.tumblr.com/
00:52:12 <kmc> this is a ray of sunshine in my world
00:52:16 <Sgeo> kmc likes jerkcity. don't know about anyone else
00:52:39 <mnoqy> jerkcity is brilliant. who wouldn't like it
00:53:26 <kmc> http://media.tumblr.com/f80afb234b91bd5d8bcaa8e2c0dccf17/tumblr_inline_mlr42hjCjn1qzv9v0.jpg
00:54:27 <Bike> woodring's a cool guy, for someone who's psychotic
00:55:04 <Bike> well he based a lot of his comic on hallucinations
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00:58:32 <Sgeo> If you have hallucinations, but can reliably determine whether something is a hallucination or not, and you don't mind the hallucinations, are you 'psychotic'?
00:58:53 <Sgeo> ...actually, I'm worse than that, come to think of it.
00:59:14 <Sgeo> I regularly have hallucinations where I can't determine that it's a hallucination during the hallucination. I do reliably work it out afterwards though.
00:59:25 <kmc> what kind of hallucinations Sgeo?
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00:59:48 <Bike> 'psychosis' is a pretty general term.
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01:00:58 <Sgeo> Full sensory hallucinations. Strong enough that any real sensory input is barely noticable.
01:02:24 <Bike> this had better not be a sarcastic reference to dreaming
01:02:24 <Bike> if it's not: probably should see a doctor
01:03:27 * Sgeo thought it was obvious enough that you wouldn't need to make conditional statements like that
01:03:57 <Sgeo> Although, hmm, some sensory input is strong enough to get through, usually disrupting the hallucination.
01:04:05 <Bike> so you mean they're not?
01:04:27 <Sgeo> I mean that yes, I was referring to dreaming.
01:04:57 <Bike> psychosis requires being awake.
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01:06:59 <Bike> i assumed you weren't being difficult
01:08:49 <kmc> itt communicating poorly and then acting smug when misunderstood
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01:09:23 <Bike> kmc is that An XKCD Reference
01:09:32 <kmc> from Before It Was Cool
01:10:16 <kmc> from when it gently poked fun at nerd tropes instead of just generating and copying them
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01:13:51 <Sgeo> It just strikes me that harmless hallucinations that everyone has are considered 'normal', while if someone had additional odd but harmless hallucinations, that would be abnormal
01:14:14 <Bike> it's quite common for mentally healthy people to have auditory hallucinations
01:14:33 <Bike> there is a thing called the Hearing Voices Movement that involves such people (as well as unhealthy people who also hear voices)
01:15:35 <ais523> Bike: I remember reading that autism was often misdiagnosed as schizophrenia due to insufficiently pedantic questions
01:15:49 <ais523> people asking questions like "do you hear voices", which were then interpreted literally
01:16:00 <ais523> "yes, when people talk nearby, I can hear their voice…"
01:16:39 <Bike> diagnosing mental illness is hard
01:17:25 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alogia#Example
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01:54:11 <pikhq> Mental illnesses are tricky.
01:55:01 <pikhq> Also, I do not recall having a dream ever, so *suck it*.
01:55:05 <pikhq> I'm saner than all y'all.
01:55:37 <Bike> I had a dream about being delusional this morning, what does that make me
01:56:58 <kmc> yesterday i woke up sucking on a lemon
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01:58:38 <Phantom__Hoover> i've lately started having fits of realising when i'm going to sleep that my thoughts make no fucking sense
01:59:03 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unsex%27d_Females also you all need to help me understand the eighteenth century because what
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02:00:01 <Bike> as in arthur conan?
02:03:06 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, try lucid dreaming?
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02:15:12 <Koen_> anyone here participating in the ludum dare?
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02:29:32 <zzo38> At first when I put "This user knows the difference between scientific astronomy and superstitious astrology." on my userpage I thought I know the difference but actually I didn't. Now I do.
02:30:01 <Bike> how do you know you know?
02:30:48 <zzo38> I don't. I won't necessarily know anything 100% certain.
02:30:58 <zzo38> Since everyone makes mistakes too, even scientists.
02:44:19 <Sgeo> There's an Android app for Robozzle!
02:44:58 <Sgeo> kmc, Bike, shachaf, you weren't here for the Robozzle addiction I think, you should play
02:45:21 <Sgeo> http://robozzle.com/
02:45:30 <shachaf> My server went down for mysterious reasons.
02:45:38 <shachaf> I have no idea what IRC channels I used to be in.
02:46:52 <shachaf> RoboZZle requires Silverlight
02:47:22 <Bike> there's a js version
02:47:23 <zzo38> Write a clone of the software in other programming languages; I think I have done once in QBASIC
02:47:49 <Sgeo> Bike, because you weren't here when Robozzle
02:48:02 <Sgeo> `pastelogs robozzle
02:48:04 <shachaf> I should get a bag, I guess.
02:48:14 <kmc> bag of holding
02:48:22 <zzo38> It depends what you want to store in it.
02:48:40 <shachaf> kmc wins, with zzo38 in second place
02:48:45 <shachaf> I think Sgeo is just trying to trick me.
02:48:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.410
02:53:01 <shachaf> kmc: have you figured out your excuse for moving to SF yet
02:53:12 <kmc> my excuse is that my friends are there and also you can buy weed at the corner store
02:53:28 <shachaf> you can also get it delivered to you online i hear
02:53:43 <Bike> or by delivery drone
02:53:56 <kmc> yes you can use cryptocurrency to buy chinese synthetic hallucinogens through the onion router
02:54:02 <kmc> because the future is a cyberpunk novel
02:54:38 <shachaf> no i mean a local san francisco thing
02:56:05 <kmc> can i get large prime numbers delivered to me online
02:56:36 <Jafet> Cyberpunk has to have buying synthetic drugs with anonymous cryptocurrency IN SPACE kmc
02:56:54 <shachaf> large prime numbers are very rare [compared to most large numbers]
02:57:49 <Bike> how rare is your average large number
02:58:13 <Jafet> I hear most numbers are large numbers.
02:58:46 <shachaf> I hear the average number is 0.
03:00:17 <Sgeo> I just realized... now that I have money, I could buy an AW citizenship
03:01:26 <Sgeo> Or a Worlds.com VP... but that would be unethical probably
03:01:40 <kmc> why? also what?
03:01:57 <Sgeo> Worlds.com is a patent troll
03:02:00 <pikhq> kmc: ActiveWorlds. Think SecondLife but nineties.
03:02:36 <Sgeo> It gets graphical updates sometimes.... kind of...
03:02:38 <shachaf> When I think SecondLife-but-nineties, I think SecondLife.
03:02:40 <Sgeo> Still using RenderWare
03:02:43 <shachaf> Also "nineties" means "last decade".
03:02:52 <shachaf> And it's going to keep meaning that.
03:03:12 <shachaf> Do I have to line my words up again?
03:03:19 <kmc> remember when George Bush invaded Iraq in the nineties?
03:04:28 <Jafet> Remember when we partied like it was 1997
03:04:44 <shachaf> I think we did that in 1997, mostly.
03:07:43 <Jafet> Use shorter sentences
03:12:25 <Sgeo> kmc, have a wiki page about a game in ActiveWorlds that I loved
03:12:25 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation
03:14:11 <Jafet> You shouldn't neglect
03:14:12 <Jafet> polysyllabic measures
03:14:12 <Jafet> in your lines either.
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03:16:01 <Jafet> “Active Worlds Inc. supplies "White Label Solutions" to corporate clients and is able to deliver customized, turn-key 3D Universes complete with built-in tailored citizen registration systems and sales/marketing data-mining capabilities.”
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03:17:29 <Sgeo> On the one hand, AW's update process is annoying, on the other, it's better than it used to be
03:18:12 <Sgeo> Used to prompt that it needs to be updated. New version starts, still not up to date, prompt again
03:18:25 <Sgeo> Now it only prompts the first time
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05:29:28 <kmc> the magic equation behind RSA
05:31:42 <shachaf> well, phi - 1. the other phi
05:33:51 <Bike> phi, the fuckiest number
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06:23:01 <kmc> At the instant the Omega Point is reached, life will have gained control of all matter and forces not only in a single universe, but in all universes whose existence is logically possible; life will have spread into all spatial regions in all universes which could logically exist, and will have stored an infinite amount of information, including all bits of knowledge which it is logically possible to know.
06:23:53 <Bike> i was so pissed when they even mentioned that shit on some science TV show
06:26:05 <Bike> tipler's fucked and de chardin's a teleological fuck and fuck
06:28:56 <mnoqy> looks p.fucked, yeah
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07:07:23 <kmc> gamma goblins (part 2)
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07:18:33 <btiffin> single character read interpret programming tool (toy), script. BF would be a script. The mother BFing script.
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07:41:48 <kmc> there is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in
07:44:39 <Jafet> Only the cracked see the light
07:46:29 <shachaf> a crack you can't see, and when the wind blows through it, it makes no sound...
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08:52:28 <Sgeo> http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2011/03/other-reason-to-beware-of.html
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09:41:03 <ThatOtherPerson> It interesting how when the fire alarm goes off we all just ignore it.
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09:52:22 <Jafet> Interesting indeed.
09:56:45 <shachaf> Jafet: Any puns for us today?
10:01:57 <Jafet> Perhaps you can find one at http://heasarc.nasa.gov/docs/xte/learning_center/discover_0606.html
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14:17:05 <ThatOtherPerson> Really? He actually uses the name "Taneb" at school and such?
14:22:49 <ThatOtherPerson> Oh Nathan who is really Taneb, where is thy current location? What coordinates art thou currently located at? When is thy estimated time of arrival to the nearest IRC client?
14:36:00 <Jafet> Heretofore doth ye antiquarian pretenſions make airs
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14:51:35 <kmc> hm TIL this is a valid C declaration: int (*x)[10];
14:52:06 <elliott> is that just an array of ten pointers to ints, or
14:52:13 <elliott> or... a pointer to a pointer to ints?
14:54:15 <olsner> a pointer to an array, i.e. just a pointer really
14:55:54 <kmc> yeah it's a pointer to an array
14:57:36 <Vorpal> [3633262.162782] [BLOCK] IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=b8:27:eb:3e:2e:5c:58:98:35:41:33:0e:08:00:45:00:00:4a:7d:06:00:00:6d:11:ca:00 SRC=85.181.239.22 DST=192.168.1.40 LEN=74 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=109 ID=32006 PROTO=UDP SPT=51703 DPT=6802 LEN=54
14:57:36 <Vorpal> [3633834.476985] [BLO\x19
14:57:36 <Vorpal> [3634184.787933] [BLOCK] IN=eth0 OUT= MAC=b8:27:eb:3e:2e:5c:)J] 8:35:41:33:0e:08:00:45:00:00:4a:72:4b:00:00:27:11:7d:9b SRC=61.58.164.178 DST=192.168.1.40 LEN=74 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=39 ID=29259 PROTO=UDP SPT=11388 DPT=6802 LEN=54
14:57:40 <Vorpal> Hm that does NOT look good
14:57:46 <Vorpal> look at those weird chars in dmesg
14:57:49 <Vorpal> what the hell is going on
14:58:10 <kmc> probably not though
14:58:20 <kmc> dmesg is read from a ring buffer
14:58:32 <Vorpal> kmc, doubtful, anyway the machine is acting as a firewall, so I do expect a lot of iptables messages.
14:58:43 <kmc> so I guess it overwrote part of an old message
14:58:51 <kmc> but i don't know why weird bytes
14:59:02 <Vorpal> kmc, seems strange it would be the last three lines of dmesg too
14:59:05 <kmc> if you can afford to take the machine down, you could memtest it
15:00:02 <kmc> there might be a similar tool for ARM but it would have to deal with the bajillion different ARM platforms
15:00:21 <kmc> perhaps the Linux kernel itself can run a test
15:00:21 <Vorpal> kmc, also it is a PITA to check what happened, since it is headless. Would need to locate that HDMI->DVI cable and so on
15:00:43 <elliott> i blame the cosmic microwaves
15:00:58 <kmc> anyway arrays aren't 'just pointers really'; they decay to pointers in certain contexts, but act differently in others
15:01:13 <kmc> if you have int (*x)[10]; int **y; then I can think of at least 2 significant differences
15:01:30 <Vorpal> elliott, possibly, but doubtful
15:01:33 <kmc> one is that sizeof(*x) != sizeof(*y)
15:02:09 <kmc> the other is that *x == &(*x) but *y != &(*y)
15:02:19 <elliott> kmc: well I didn't realise you could even have a pointer to an array
15:02:22 <elliott> which is why I thought it might decay
15:02:44 <kmc> yeah me either, or anyway I didn't know the syntax for it until just now
15:02:49 <kmc> by reading http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html
15:02:52 <kmc> which is an interesting article
15:06:22 <Vorpal> Btw, function pointer syntax: WHY
15:06:43 <fizzie> You also can't point x and y at the same kind of things, and (char*)(x+1) - (char*)x != (char*)(y+1) - (char*)y.
15:06:48 <Vorpal> Function pointers are even worse in C++ (like most stuff)
15:08:04 <Vorpal> kmc, so int (*x)[10]; is specifically an array of length 10? Hm
15:08:11 <kmc> it's a pointer to an array of length 10
15:08:29 <Vorpal> will the compiler warn on (*x)[11] then?
15:08:38 <kmc> how do you mean?
15:09:01 <Vorpal> I mean when accessing element 11 of the length 10 array
15:09:01 <fizzie> It will certainly warn if you try to point it at an int[11].
15:09:11 <Vorpal> which I presume you do by that syntax?
15:09:19 <Vorpal> Or does x[11] work directly
15:09:23 <kmc> 'warning: initialization from incompatible pointer type [enabled by default]'
15:09:23 <Vorpal> Why does declaring the length there matter then?
15:09:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: Because x++ will advance it by ten ints.
15:10:03 <kmc> and sizeof will factor in the array size
15:10:09 <kmc> x = malloc(sizeof(*x));
15:10:22 <fizzie> If you have an array of array of 10 ints, you need an int (*)[10] to point to one "row".
15:10:24 <Vorpal> You could work on RGB data really easily with this
15:10:45 <Vorpal> (3 or 4, not 10 then obviously)
15:11:03 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hJaD -- from my candide backscroll.
15:11:13 <fizzie> Someone was asking about a very similar thing on ##c recently.
15:11:25 <kmc> Vorpal: the syntax for declaring function pointers is meant to mimic the syntax for using them (as with other declarations in C)
15:11:29 <kmc> it's definitely bad though
15:11:37 <kmc> and i think declaration-follows-use is a bad rule
15:11:49 <fizzie> It's not *that* bad until you have a function that returns a pointer to a function.
15:12:17 <kmc> void *call_cc(void *(*)(void (*)(void *) __attribute__((noreturn))));
15:12:17 <fizzie> The argument types of the returned function pointer end up very far from where you'd normally expect a return type to be.
15:12:21 <olsner> you can make it arbitrarily bad
15:12:49 <kmc> declare call_cc as function (pointer to function (pointer to function (pointer to void) returning void) returning pointer to void) returning pointer to void
15:13:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I never even tried that without typedefs...
15:13:13 <Vorpal> elliott, worse than C++?
15:13:48 <elliott> well at least C++ has things
15:13:48 <olsner> even if you can write or read types like that, you're really better off pretending you can't
15:13:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: int (*foo(int))(char); is a function that takes an int, and returns a pointer which takes a char and returns an int.
15:14:14 <fizzie> The return type -- int (*)(char) -- gets split up pretty badly there.
15:14:47 <kmc> yeah typedefs are called for
15:15:06 <kmc> btw why does C have typedefs and not just use macros for that purpose?
15:15:10 <Vorpal> Also it all gets worse in C++ as usual. Pointers to member functions and so on.
15:16:06 <Vorpal> How does a pointer to a virtual member function even work? What if there is virtual diamond inheritance mixed into it?
15:16:08 <fizzie> kmc: You couldn't (easily) use a macro for that returns-a-pointer-to-a-function, since you can't form "pointer to T" just by appending a *, always; but you can if T is a typedef.
15:16:52 <fizzie> va_arg I think requires that the type is specified in such a way that you can turn it into a pointer like that.
15:17:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a fascinating article about the implementation of pointers to member functions when it comes to virtual functions.
15:17:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: I seem to recall (on some implementation) it involving 4-, 8-, 12- and maybe even 16-byte pointers.
15:17:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'll see if I can re-find it.
15:18:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, 16 bytes on a 64 or 32-bit system?
15:18:30 <Vorpal> it would be utterly silly on a 32-bit system, not quite as bad (relatively speaking) on a 64-bit system
15:18:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: It might have been http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/7150/Member-Function-Pointers-and-the-Fastest-Possible or something linking to it / linked from it. At least that one mentions the different sizes.
15:19:09 <fizzie> "Most bizarrely, in Visual C++, a member function pointer might be 4, 8, 12, or 16 bytes long, depending on the nature of the class it's associated with, and depending on what compiler settings are used!"
15:19:25 <fizzie> There's a table of them.
15:19:34 <kmc> one (GCC) trick i learned from ksplice is to use typeof like so:
15:19:34 <kmc> extern const typeof(int (*)(void)) ksplice_call_pre_apply[]
15:19:55 <FireFly> C's syntax is pretty weird sometimes
15:20:07 <FireFly> `int typedef (*bar)(int);` is also nice
15:20:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: int: not found
15:20:22 <kmc> instead of, uh, extern const int (*ksplice_call_pre_apply[])(void) ?
15:20:39 <kmc> typeof makes the function pointer type into something that can be composed in a syntactically normal way
15:21:03 <kmc> also people might be amused by the 'templated data structure library' here: https://github.com/CentOS/ksplice/blob/master/objcommon.h
15:21:03 <fizzie> Yeah, in that it's kind of like an anonymous typedef. :p
15:22:30 <fizzie> "Current versions of the GNU compiler use a strange and tricky optimization. It observes that, for virtual inheritance, you have to look up the vtable in order to get the voffset required to calculate the this pointer. While you're doing that, you might as well store the function pointer in the vtable. By doing this, they combine the m_func_address and m_vtable_index fields into one, and they ...
15:22:37 <fizzie> ... distinguish between them by ensuring that function pointers always point to even addresses but vtable indices are always odd --"
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15:34:26 <Fiora> that sounds like... that sounds like sbcl's tagging, almost
15:34:37 <Fiora> or for that matter the ARM thing with thumb function calls
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15:44:19 <Koen_> hey, why isn't Robozzle Joust a thing yet
15:45:44 <Vorpal> <FireFly> `int typedef (*bar)(int);` is also nice <-- that does something?
15:45:58 <Vorpal> typedef in the middle? What does that mean
15:48:25 <kmc> Fiora: heh, yeah
15:49:16 <kmc> pointer tagging comes up a lot
15:49:28 <kmc> if you give programmers some unused bits, we will find a way to use them
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15:50:13 <kmc> i find it really amusing that the whole 'canonical address' thing on AMD64 exists explicitly to prevent people from using 'unused' address bits that may become used later
15:50:37 <kmc> it's kind of too bad really
15:52:03 <Fiora> kmc: that reminds me of that thing on win32 I remember reading
15:52:21 <kmc> i think maybe they should have let the OS disable those checks; some platforms don't care about binary compatibility
15:52:30 <Fiora> that microsoft couldn't enable /LARGEADDRESSAWARE by default because many windows programs would use the top address bit for something, because Windows guaranteed the kernel reserved the top 2GB
15:52:34 <Fiora> (at the time, at least)
15:52:49 <nooodl_> hey does anyone here have any Go experience
15:52:50 <Fiora> so 32-bit programs are still limited to 2GB address space by default, even on 64-bit
15:53:40 <kmc> i wonder if there are Linux/i386 programs that do similar things
15:53:48 <kmc> they would break running as compat processes on amd64
15:53:52 <Vorpal> Fiora, what about the /3GB switch though?
15:54:17 <Vorpal> Fiora, it is a boot.ini option that switches the split to 1 GB for the kernel, 3 for the app
15:54:20 <Fiora> ohhhh. I see. that's the parameter required on 32-bit to make the OS fit itself in 1GB, and leave 3GB for the app
15:54:39 <Fiora> I think if I rmeember right on x86_32 to make large address aware work, you need both the app compiled with /LARGEADDRESSAWARE *and* the /3GB startup flag
15:54:58 <Fiora> but on 64-bit it's just largeaddressaware, I think. since the kernel has all the address space ver
15:55:06 <Vorpal> Fiora, the guys at work who are still on 32-bit XP use it to be able to use incremental linking in Visual Studio. Kind of funny really.
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15:55:38 <Vorpal> (yeah, the ilk file gets THAT big, boost is scary)
15:56:15 <Fiora> kmc: did linux always enforce the 2/2 split before or something, like windows did?
15:56:26 <Fiora> I'd imagine on linux you probably couldn't have relied on that as much but I wouldn't know (?)
15:56:37 <kmc> the address model is a compile time kernel config parameter
15:56:40 <kmc> it's usually 3GB / 1GB
15:56:48 <kmc> people shouldn't have relied on it, but they might have
15:57:01 <kmc> actually the kernel itself uses the top page or so of addresses for non-pointer meanings too
15:57:24 <kmc> functions that normally return a pointer will return ERR_PTR(-ENOMEM) or whatever on errors
15:57:46 <Vorpal> The concept of the kernel having memory pages in the application address space is kind of silly really. It is an artifact of the architecture though
15:57:51 <Fiora> oh, so that's just like doing (void*)(-err)
15:57:57 <kmc> Fiora: yeah I think so
15:58:12 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, it's hard to get good performance on x86 without it (except on some very recent chips?)
15:58:16 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1d7g28/hacking_v8_yield_and_asyncawait_in_nodejs/
15:58:28 <Vorpal> kmc, oh? How did they fix that?
15:58:36 <Sgeo> This sort of thing, if it gets standardized and into node.js, may make me actually want to try node.js
15:58:51 <Fiora> I think they added a PCID system?
15:59:06 <olsner> IIRC S/370 allows using 16 or so address spaces per process
15:59:13 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why link reddit rather than the original source? That just means an extra click for me
15:59:21 <kmc> yeah, there's something like a TLB tag
15:59:25 <Fiora> "Another long overdue improvement to the page tables is the Processor Context ID (PCID). The PCID is a field in each TLB entry that associates a given page to a process. Previously, Intel’s TLB could only contain entries from a single process and whenever the CR3 register was written (e.g. a context switch), the TLB was flushed.
15:59:30 <Fiora> The PCID lets pages from different processes safely inhabit the TLB together, so that CR3 writes no longer flush the TLB. Whenever a process tries to access a page in memory, the PCID is checked to determine whether the page is actually mapped into the process’ address space;
15:59:35 <Fiora> if the PCID does not match then a TLB miss occurred. This is very much analogous to Intel’s VPID, which enables the TLB to contain pages from different virtual machines and avoid TLB flushes during VM transitions."
15:59:39 <Fiora> (sorry for the spam)
15:59:48 <Sgeo> Because there are useful links in the Reddit thread too
16:00:02 <fizzie> My Scheme thing I wrote (I think it was maybe for some course?) used the whole low byte of 64-bit values as tag bits; that way (on x86-64) you can work easily on the tags just by looking at al/bl/..., and it's a simple matter of a sign-extending shift of 8 bits to turn it back to a pointer. (Of course it'll fail if virtual addresses are ever extended to full 64 bits.)
16:00:23 -!- Bike has joined.
16:00:29 <Fiora> say nice to Intel maybe? :P though apparently it came because of VM-related things
16:00:31 <kmc> why would it fail, if you're using the /low/ byte?
16:00:47 <Jafet> fizzie: mmap everything yourself then
16:01:02 <Vorpal> kmc, he is shifting the entire address up to store stuff in the low byte
16:01:08 <fizzie> kmc: Because when you shift a pointer left by 8 to make room for that byte, the top 8 bits fall off.
16:01:20 <Fiora> fizzie: that's really sneaky
16:01:29 <kmc> won't you also run into the canonical address restriction on current processors?
16:01:38 <Fiora> canonical address restriction?
16:01:52 <fizzie> They're not used as pointers after shifting.
16:02:48 <fizzie> Technically, it's exactly the canonical form addresses that let it work, since the top 8 bits are always the same as the top 9th one. (Though I suppose for my uses I could've just assumed they are all zeros.)
16:03:14 <fizzie> (It also means my immediate integers are 56-bit, which is kind of a silly number.)
16:03:27 <Fiora> canonical addresses are 56 bits?
16:03:34 <kmc> i go forwards and you go backwards and some day we will meet
16:03:41 <fizzie> Or maybe I did 63-bit ones by reserving one half of the tags, can't remember.
16:04:14 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:04:29 <Fiora> oh, 48 then, that makes more sense...
16:04:48 <Fiora> does it depend on the CPU? like I thought different CPUs supported different numbers of address bits
16:04:52 <fizzie> "address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual"
16:04:54 <Vorpal> Anyway on a given CPU it might be more restricted than that.
16:05:01 <Fiora> oh... that's physical that gets restricted
16:05:05 <Vorpal> address sizes: 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
16:05:19 <fizzie> This is very consumer too.
16:05:22 <Vorpal> 36 on a Core i5? Really
16:05:29 <fizzie> (AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5600+.)
16:05:38 <Fiora> my haswell thing says 39
16:05:40 <fizzie> In fact, compared to the i5 it's positively ancient.
16:05:44 <Vorpal> yeah my old Sempron had more than 36
16:06:11 <kmc> the Pentium Pro had 36 bit physical addresses!
16:06:19 <Vorpal> Jafet, 36-bit is same as what PAE allows
16:06:20 <fizzie> IIRC, my work-workstation has a number so that the installed memory is already a quarter of what's possible.
16:06:24 <Vorpal> kmc, yeah, and this is a Sandy Bridge
16:06:46 <fizzie> It has 16 gigs in it, and I guess 2^36 is 64, so it probably had that width.
16:07:02 <Vorpal> My desktop also has 16 GB, so yeah
16:07:09 <Vorpal> the mobo only supports up to 32 though anyway
16:07:23 <Fiora> I think address widths depend more on market segmentation and stuff than technology?
16:08:40 <fizzie> address sizes : 32 bits physical, 48 bits virtual go go Intel Atom power.
16:09:01 <kmc> i have a sandy bridge laptop with 36 bits and a Phenom II desktop with full 48 bits (!)
16:09:06 <Jafet> Does sandy bridge chipset actually allow 64GB
16:09:10 <Fiora> is there an easy way to check on windows
16:09:14 <Fiora> I guess I could just google my CPU
16:09:18 <elliott> address sizes: 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
16:09:25 <kmc> i don't think my motherboard will support 256 TB of memory though
16:09:42 <kmc> it might support... 256 GB
16:09:56 <Fiora> it says "max memory size: 32GB" so um. I guess that's 35 bits?
16:10:14 <kmc> windows says? or googling it
16:10:18 <Fiora> http://ark.intel.com/products/64891
16:11:10 <olsner> at 256GB and up I think you should start measuring it in TB
16:11:11 <fizzie> Could also have something to do with some other limit than the cpuinfo address size, who knows.
16:11:14 <Fiora> it's a laptop cpu so maybe they allow less?
16:11:28 <kmc> technically the physical address space size could be different from the amount of actual physical memory the CPU can talk to
16:11:39 <kmc> maybe they are reserving half of the physical address space for memory mapped I/O :)
16:12:17 <Fiora> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/T530 yay I found a paste of someone else's cpuinfo -_-
16:12:20 <Fiora> looks like 36 bits
16:12:27 <fizzie> Our cluster has a couple (2? 8?) nodes with 1T, that's probably the most I've "seen" (aka ran something on) on a single system.
16:14:24 <fizzie> I don't know how to ask SLURM for node names in a queue, otherwise I'd go and run 'free' on one.
16:14:50 <Jafet> "Hey guys, can I run free on the cluster"
16:15:53 <olsner> I wonder if AMD just doesn't report a useful physical size at all and that's why they say 48 bits
16:15:58 <fizzie> [htkallas@fn02 ~]$ free total used free shared buffers cached
16:16:01 <fizzie> Mem: 1058758568 159762660 898995908 0 267512 70067644
16:16:03 <fizzie> -/+ buffers/cache: 89427504 969331064
16:16:06 <fizzie> Swap: 67108856 26592 67082264
16:16:12 <fizzie> Aw, linewrapped to headers.
16:17:04 <fizzie> free -b has some trouble with alignment:
16:17:06 <fizzie> total used free shared buffers cached
16:17:06 <fizzie> Mem: 1084168773632 163434242048 920734531584 0 274001920 71750295552
16:17:58 <fizzie> And there seems to be just one of them at the moment. They had two, maybe the other one broke.
16:18:10 <lambdabot> SimonMarlow says: This is the largest program (in terms of memory requirements) I've ever seen anyone run using GHC. In fact there was no machine in our building capable of running it, I had to
16:18:10 <lambdabot> fire up the largest Amazon EC2 instance available (68GB) to debug it - this bug cost me $26.
16:18:53 <fizzie> Our general shell server has 96 gigs. And thousands of irssi's.
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16:19:08 <Fiora> wow. that's a big disk cache
16:19:57 <Jafet> I like how swap is on.
16:20:40 <kmc> the Shadow Chancellor is named Ed Balls
16:20:53 <fizzie> How do I ask ps for only commands with no pids or anything?
16:21:27 <Jafet> Or one of the other five hundred syntaxii
16:21:51 <fizzie> -o comm worked vaguely like it.
16:22:34 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/GgKI there we go.
16:22:40 <Jafet> Now you can sift through for anything that looks vaguely like a password
16:23:48 <fizzie> It's a kerberos thing.
16:24:04 <fizzie> Keeps a ticket current so access to directories doesn't time out.
16:24:28 <fizzie> I think they've mangled in some sort of automatic on-login krenew background task in.
16:24:38 <fizzie> Because there were... issues, before.
16:24:45 <Jafet> Is that, like, 971 nfs mounts
16:25:22 <fizzie> Maybe approximatively, since I think all homedirs are automounted individually.
16:26:00 <olsner> is that a good way to set it up? why not mount /home once and for all?
16:26:52 <fizzie> The tickets are per-user, anyway. But seems that there are only 10 /m/home/homeN mounts.
16:27:30 <fizzie> I live in /m/home/home2/22/htkallas.
16:28:02 <Jafet> Freshwater Pearl Necklace http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA11S0P55306
16:28:15 * kmc reading about the history of C while listening to neo-60s psychedelic rock
16:28:24 <Vorpal> I know someone with a dual Xenon (i7, ivy bridge) mobo with 64 GB RAM as their desktop. Some Nvidia SLI thingy as well
16:28:51 <Vorpal> Pretty absurd computer
16:29:07 <Vorpal> For a home desktop that is
16:29:19 <Jafet> 1970s thrash metal
16:30:00 <elliott> like they had a second 60s
16:30:03 <fizzie> The lab systems have individually automounted home/scratch directories, at least. I'm not sure what the actual benefits there are, but at least it makes tab-completion on workstations marginally easier, when the directories aren't full of billion subdirs.
16:30:07 <Fiora> am I insane for having 32GB in my laptop <.<
16:30:22 <elliott> how do you use 32 gigabytes of RAM...
16:30:22 <fizzie> Though it's somewhat unsettling to do ls, not see something, but then still being able to cd in.
16:30:40 <olsner> Vorpal: not that absurd, memory size doubles all the time, what's absurd is that someone paid the Xeon and dual cpu tax for their home computer
16:30:44 <kmc> elliott: yep
16:30:49 <Vorpal> elliott, hey. I use 16 GB RAM easily, I recently swapped on this thing
16:30:58 <Fiora> I'm guessing it mostly goes to having a big disk cache
16:31:07 <kmc> having 32 GB sounds wonderful
16:31:12 <kmc> RAM is cheap, you should have as much as you can
16:31:15 <Vorpal> and I would kill for 32 GB in my work laptop (instead of the 12 GB I have now)
16:31:35 <Fiora> ~2GB for my browsers ish, 1GB for other programs, 2GB for a currently running game, 10GB for the disk cache for the game...
16:31:39 <Fiora> it probably really adds up
16:31:54 <Fiora> then again um I have an SSD so I probably don't actually need that disk cache but
16:31:57 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/Lcgc nurrr, so confusing.
16:32:01 <kmc> http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/68610992/Directions+to+See+a+Ghost+folder.png
16:32:05 <elliott> you mean you don't compulsively quit browsers before starting a resource-intensive game??
16:32:23 <Fiora> I alt-tab between them and the game >:3
16:32:31 <Jafet> I would need more memory, but firefox reliably crashes after using 3GB so it's ok
16:32:52 <fizzie> kmc: I was hoping for directions on seeing a ghost folder, or perhaps at least a description about what kind of folder a ghost folder is.
16:32:56 <elliott> Fiora: imo think of the starving children like me who regularly exhaust their 4 gigabytes :'(
16:33:10 <Vorpal> I have a 240 GB Intel 520 SSD in my work laptop, 12 GB RAM and a pretty high end mobile Core i7 (ivy bridge). Some Nvidia chipset too, not sure which one
16:33:11 <Jafet> Also, if you start firefox and don't restore the previous session, and it crashes and you restore the current session, you'll still get a tab inside the current session asking you to restore the previous session
16:33:23 <Fiora> um I'd send you some old extra RAM sticks I have
16:33:30 <Fiora> but 2GB DDR3 sticks probably aren't useful to anyone
16:33:38 <elliott> i don't think i could even put more ram in this laptop
16:33:41 <fizzie> Steam's in-game web browser thing is kind of a funky occasionally.
16:33:48 <elliott> Jafet: have you heard of ineiros's web browsing system
16:33:49 <Fiora> that's my feeling too, it's like, everyone's lapto comes with at least 2x2GB
16:34:00 <Fiora> so these sticks are totally useless
16:34:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is assuming it is a steam game you are playing
16:34:13 <olsner> my laptop fits up to 16GB, I think ... but I was too cheap and only put 8GB in it :(
16:34:30 <elliott> i will probably get 16 gigs when i upgrade
16:34:32 <elliott> it seems like a reasonable size
16:34:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: It still stays funky even when you're not playing a Steam game, you just can't access it.
16:35:21 <elliott> kmc: why is that on newegg
16:35:23 <fizzie> Jafet: ineiros had nested "do you want to restore these tabs?" tabs up to a depth of 8 or something.
16:35:24 <Jafet> elliott: does it involve 5000 inactive tabs
16:35:30 <olsner> elliott: a reasonable size will become a small size far too quickly
16:35:34 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile on the topic of steam: wtf is it still complaining about the public beta for
16:35:38 <elliott> Jafet: it involves crashing the browser to nest the restore tabs pages
16:35:55 <Jafet> I think I will get to 8 in a few months
16:36:08 <kmc> why is what on newegg?
16:36:09 <Jafet> firefox is crashing less often, though, so I can't say
16:36:24 <fizzie> Jafet: Then it sort of blew up, because each level of nesting approximately doubled the amount of storage it takes, due to nested escaping; as in " -> \" -> \\\" -> \\\\\\\" -> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\".
16:36:56 <kmc> > iterate show ""
16:36:58 <fizzie> Jafet: If you've got a lot of nesting going on, you might want to inspect your session storage, it can look amusing.
16:36:59 <lambdabot> ["","\"\"","\"\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\"\"","\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\...
16:37:11 <Jafet> Also why isn't it sessionstore.js.gz
16:37:33 <elliott> imo telling people apart is too ahrd
16:38:20 <Jafet> fizzie: indeed, my new sessionstore is twice the size of the old
16:39:15 <Vorpal> I went to chromium months ago.
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16:40:29 <Jafet> firefox with noscript is probably the safest useful browser. Though if you take noscript off it probably becomes the unsafest
16:42:58 <kmc> fsvo 'useful' and 'browser'
16:43:31 <Vorpal> true, the memory usage is really bad though
16:43:47 <Vorpal> Jafet, also chromium is probably safer when you do need js
16:44:00 <kmc> I guess with NoScript you just enable scripts on things you want to view as applications rather than documents
16:44:11 <kmc> it's a weird property of the Web that it doesn't distinguish between applications and documents
16:45:26 <Bike> well hey, word processors have programming languages in them
16:46:16 <Jafet> I don't know any browser that has a per-domain switch for javascript, flash and cross-site request
16:46:33 <Jafet> Chromium just lets you turn everything off and on again
16:48:13 <olsner> opera has site-specific preferences for lots of stuff, including javascript and plugins (not sure about cross-site requests)
16:49:13 <Vorpal> hm is there not a noscript plugin for chromium?
16:49:21 <Vorpal> that would be really nice
16:49:26 <Jafet> Yeah but opera is unusable, it breaks all the non-standards-conforming websites
16:49:46 <fizzie> Chrome has a built-in thing that does the basics, in that you can whitelist sites for JS.
16:50:15 <fizzie> You can also turn off plugins and the enable them on a site-by-site basis.
16:51:55 <fizzie> I used to use FlashBlock in Chromium, but nowadays I just use its built-in "click before running" setting for Flash.
16:53:10 <elliott> I think there is an actual NoScript too
16:57:22 <fizzie> Heh, went to look at Chromium settings, apparently my "Camera" is set to "BT878 video (Hauppauge (bt878))".
16:57:31 <fizzie> Here's what comes out of that device, according to mplayer: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130427-bt878.png
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16:58:07 <kmc> directions to see a ghost
16:59:01 <olsner> fizzie: that is very similar to what comes out of mine
16:59:17 <fizzie> olsner: I'm sure it'd get you a lot of fans in, say, Omegle.
16:59:24 <olsner> I believe connecting the cable will allow you to get a better picture though
16:59:30 <kmc> use it as a random number generator
16:59:58 <kmc> do you all remember LavaRand
17:00:05 <fizzie> olsner: I don't think anyone's really broadcasting analog TV around here.
17:00:12 <elliott> fizzie: is that what you look like irl
17:00:24 <fizzie> elliott: It's a good approximation.
17:00:40 <fizzie> I remember it was made by SGI or something.
17:01:39 <fizzie> I did use a regular webcam (with a lens cover on) for feeding /dev/random, at one point. Gave it up since there didn't really seem to be a terribly good reason for it.
17:01:48 <olsner> oh, has finland shut down analog tv for good?
17:01:50 <Jafet> mov rax, [rsp]; high quality randomness
17:03:13 <fizzie> olsner: In 2008 or so.
17:04:27 <fizzie> "Finland ceased analog terrestrial transmissions nationwide at 04:00, Saturday, 1 September 2007" thank you, Wikipedia.
17:04:51 <olsner> apparently 19 October 2007 in Sweden
17:04:53 <fizzie> Cable TV broadcasters apparently stretched it to 2008.
17:06:14 <fizzie> Analog FM radio is still around, but I don't think bt878 does it; some close relatives of the chipset do.
17:13:20 <fizzie> I believe the line-in of the card can technically be used as a general-purpose reasonably-high-bandwidth ADC; where "reasonably-high" means in compared to a sound card with a 48 kHz sampling rate on inputs, for example.
17:13:24 <fizzie> "The analog input offers 360 gHz usable BW at 8 effective bits or 100 kHz usable BW at 12 effective bits." (bt878 datasheet.)
17:13:48 <fizzie> Not that I know how the line-in hole of my card is wired, I've never plugged anything in there.
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17:17:24 <ThatOtherPerson> I love it when I don't understand the code that I am typing
17:19:10 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, I hate that
17:19:46 <ThatOtherPerson> I think I understood it at one point but forgot and I'm now just going along with it
17:20:03 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/111ddb52571438dba0db3055899217db/tumblr_mi53y7UBgv1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg united kingdom
17:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> it was only called the united kingdom after the union with scotland in the first place
17:22:34 <kmc> what game?
17:22:46 <fizzie> Formats of S8 and S16LE and sample rates of 119466-448000 is what Alsa says about the [Bt87x Analog] capture device.
17:22:55 <fizzie> (448000 Hz is a lot of Hz.)
17:22:56 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: http://25.media.tumblr.com/e82c763998e141b3775609dbe4164974/tumblr_mhypkdV2qI1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg better?
17:23:09 <Bike> kmc: victoria II, i think
17:23:18 <kmc> the cornish empire shall rule the world
17:23:45 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/231432d67b2eaa4a13e870581a66ad64/tumblr_mgrn803zPQ1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg this blog is really quite fantastic
17:23:55 <Phantom_Hoover> i like the way the king of scotland is called scotland
17:24:05 <kmc> the cornish language becomes the global language of business and science
17:24:48 <Phantom_Hoover> huh, cornish is one of the non-goidelic celtic languages
17:24:51 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: it's a cornish herald saying "My King, Scotland has accepted[...]"
17:25:16 <Bike> my favorite so far is probably http://24.media.tumblr.com/6e2bea1bc14ddd76e71dc430d839cba0/tumblr_mia6zs5VCA1rdbszlo1_400.png
17:25:32 <kmc> what island is that
17:25:50 <kmc> crotobaltislavonia aiwa!
17:26:28 <elliott> Bike: do you have a `linque'
17:27:20 <Fiora> Bike: oh gosh there's a blog for that?
17:27:41 <Fiora> why is EU3 the best thing ever
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17:31:03 <kmc> woah, Python has modular exponentiation built in
17:31:07 <kmc> pow(base, expt, mod)
17:38:52 <Bike> elliott, Fiora: http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/
17:39:12 <Bike> also my favorite is actually the one involving "Incan Songhai" but i'm too lazy to find it again
17:39:26 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/ed05bf8e1668e65ae79a7dbfe88da6d4/tumblr_mgu1mhkMKd1rdbszlo1_500.jpg blaze it
17:40:13 <ThatOtherPerson> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/image/48858474406 <-- my Arabic Culture teacher was from Nejd
17:41:11 <Bike> isn't it like mostly empty
17:41:56 <ThatOtherPerson> In that map though, Nejd is shown as covering the empty quarter
17:42:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Saudi_Arabia_-_Nejd_region_locator.png ?
17:43:08 <Bike> oh, i thought the "empty quarter" was pretty mjuch everything not on the coast
17:43:10 <Bike> rather than the south
17:45:04 <ThatOtherPerson> Bike: part of the Empty Quarter that I've been too: http://amplivex.com/SHAYBAH3a.jpg
17:47:52 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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17:53:39 <elliott> what do you want taneb for anyway
17:53:56 <ThatOtherPerson> We were going to make something goofy for Ludum Dare together
17:54:14 <ThatOtherPerson> But right now I'm just making something goofy for Ludum Dare by myself
17:55:01 <Fiora> Bike: this blog is amazing
17:55:40 * Fiora looks at http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/image/48858474406 , tries to figure out what's wrong. looks and looks. then. SCANDINAVIA
17:57:05 <elliott> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/image/48544010152 wales
18:12:57 <Bike> Fiora: "Neuchatelian Africa, now, that's normal"
18:14:26 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: looks pretty/hot/pretty hot
18:15:37 <Bike> Neuchâtel is apparently part of Switzerland. rad
18:16:31 <Bike> kmc: also: is the modular exponentiation like a good implementation
18:18:03 <kmc> i don't know, it's fast enough for my purposes
18:18:55 <kmc> it can do like 1024 bit numbers quickly
18:18:58 <Bike> http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/image/39664457525 am i reading this right
18:23:49 <Bike> i think the dude is having an affair with his daughter/
18:24:16 <Jafet> > let pow w t f| f==0 = mod 1 w |odd f = pow w t (f-1)*f`mod`w |True = pow w t (div f 2)^2`mod`w in pow 3 (2^2^5+1) (2^(2^5-1))
18:25:31 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/cd37c3cc241d80390fd6a0ba6b877586/tumblr_mf67chV6CD1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg argh, even i know that's not how those letters work
18:26:18 <kmc> was polish ever written with cyrilic?
18:26:46 <Bike> uh, i dunno. pretty much everything was at some point but
18:27:04 <Bike> i mean poland already had a writing system during the soviet era so they wouldn't have invented one
18:28:59 <Bike> looks like no, but on the other hand Aleut was for a while!
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18:35:20 <Fiora> kmc: what modular arithmetic thingy are you doing?
18:35:35 <kmc> implementing diffie-hellman and RSA for fun
18:36:41 <Fiora> Bike: wooooooowww (re http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/image/39664457525)
18:37:56 <Fiora> I'd make an incest comment but I get the feeling much of the royalty of that era was terribly incestuous anyways
18:38:43 <kmc> les cousins dangereux
18:39:08 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md5avc57MR1qc0163o1_500.jpg with strange consequences
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18:39:42 <Fiora> Bike: well they *told* you to beware of mpreg
18:40:14 <Bike> they did. they did and i didn't listen
18:41:45 <Bike> "I'm curious to know what the outcome was... Was it cancer?" "Haha no. After selecting the little box he loses his pregnancy symptom"
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18:46:54 <Fiora> wait, that was a real message? XD
18:47:23 <Bike> nah, some kinda hack
18:47:43 <Bike> can you even get things like incan songhai in the unmodified game
18:47:52 <Fiora> I don't know, I haven't played it enough...
18:48:15 <Fiora> I'm not very good at managing royalty
18:48:23 <Bike> have you considered: liberating the ainu from the japanese, in a game where you play as the Cree
18:49:01 <Bike> think about it!!
18:49:41 <Bike> i've never played any of these games but i read a narrative LP where scotland takes over europe from a base in Memphis so it's p. much the best thing ever
18:50:27 <Bike> the little known scottish imperial period
18:50:53 <Bike> honestly i'd believe about anything from history after learning about polish-mongolian literature and basque-icelandic creole and shit
18:51:01 <Bike> history is another country and it is fucking insane
18:51:48 <Jafet> "Thank god we don't live there"
18:53:04 <Bike> no it's cool. it's far enough away that i can read things like "40% of the population was killed" and not be emotionally affected
18:53:11 <Bike> http://lparchive.org/A-Scotsman-In-Egypt/
18:54:11 <elliott> i know next to nothing about the last king of scotland but i'm totally namedropping it here due to the proximity of "scotland" and "egypt" (a country like "uganda")
18:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/Update%202-18/ sankis
18:55:03 <Bike> http://lparchive.org/A-Scotsman-In-Egypt/ <-- oh that was real huh
18:55:06 <Bike> er wrong paste
18:55:08 <Bike> "His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular", in addition to his officially stated claim of being the uncrowned King of Scotland.
18:55:27 <elliott> i like "and Uganda in Particular"
18:55:44 <Bike> he awarded himself a victoria cross. ballsy
18:55:48 <elliott> like it starts off trying to be your overly formal ridiculously grand title but then it's like
18:55:59 <elliott> pretty proud of that one!!
18:59:28 <Fiora> now you're getting me reading this LP
19:00:18 <Bike> i wonder if a more reasonable monarch had funny things like that in their titles
19:00:18 <Fiora> oh my gosh the intro XD
19:00:58 <Bike> "George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, and so forth" well that's pretty good
19:01:04 <Bike> "defender of the faith bla bla bla"
19:01:07 <olsner> I think most royalty have lots of extra titles that usually aren't mentioned
19:01:29 <Bike> i think they did the out of universe stuff in the forums thread
19:01:42 <Bike> that's where they explained the ridiculous exploits they used to make the thing possible i think
19:02:45 <Fiora> the scottish egypt thing?
19:03:23 <Fiora> are there any LPs like this that explain like all their exploits in the LP itself? the narration is cool but I'd love to learn all the things they're donig
19:03:56 <kmc> did his title actually include "and so forth"
19:05:40 <Fiora> (this is why I really love Sulla's Civ 4 game logs, they explain everything!)
19:06:02 <kmc> par la Grâce de Dieu, Reine du Royaume-Uni, du Canada et de ses autres Royaumes et Territoires, Chef du Commonwealth, Défenseur de la Foi
19:06:33 <coppro> kmc: you forgot the start
19:06:41 <Bike> kmc: so wikipedia says
19:08:07 <Bike> Fiora: none that i'm aware of, the closest i've seen is a couple DF LPs
19:08:25 <Bike> "we modded in these psycho zombie dorf enemies" etc
19:09:12 <Bike> i don't think they actually cheated in the scot LP, anyway, just exploited stupidities of the AI
19:09:53 <Fiora> yeah, that's the part that's really the best
19:10:01 <Fiora> coming up with amazing strategies and exploits
19:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> The SA series of DF LPs got steadily more narrative though
19:10:28 <Fiora> my favorite of all time is still the Sulla "cultural conquest" game series
19:10:38 <Bike> headshoots rocked
19:10:40 <Fiora> where his goal was to win a domination/conquest victory in civ 4
19:10:45 <Fiora> without ever firing a shot, or conquering a city
19:10:51 <Bike> Fiora: well i'm not a gamer so i mostly paid attention to the plot you nerd
19:10:53 <Fiora> the game mechanics abuse was staggering
19:10:59 <Fiora> and it was amazing
19:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.computerandvideogames.com/161570/blog/galciv-2-war-report-final-entry/?site=pcg
19:11:06 <Bike> oh man that one's fucking great
19:11:08 <Phantom_Hoover> then the sequel, http://www.computerandvideogames.com/195920/blog/galactic-civilizations-diary-days-1-26/#
19:11:14 <Fiora> oh no I'm a nerd >_<
19:11:28 * Fiora dons her black thick-rimmed glasses
19:11:34 <Bike> "Elizabeth II, Dei Gratia Britanniarum Regnorumque Suorum Ceterorum Regina, Consortionis Populorum Princeps, Fidei Defensor" not bad
19:12:06 <Bike> "King of the English, raised by the right hand of the Almighty to the Throne of the whole Kingdom of Britain" haha i think this guy is my favorite premodern english king
19:12:12 <kmc> in Deus Ex you could beat the first level without killing anyone, and you got an achievement or whatever for it, but also your cybernetically enhanced killing machine coworkers would look at your funny
19:12:42 <Bike> you sure you wanna mess with the hand of god you scottish motherfuckers??
19:12:52 <Phantom_Hoover> in deus ex you can complete the first level without doing anything
19:13:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:13:07 <Bike> luigi augments by doing absolutely nothing
19:13:22 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a notorious exploit where if you lob a gas grenade into unatco hq it'll piss off one of the guards and he'll open the front door
19:13:27 -!- mnoqy has joined.
19:13:53 <Bike> you've all seen "luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing" right
19:14:29 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZwjYv3sfk masterful AI
19:14:50 <mnoqy> what did i lie about this time
19:15:36 <oerjan> * coppro is leaving. goodbye. <-- very slowly, i take.
19:15:57 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CwDngBhmQXY#! this is the best
19:16:12 <Fiora> Luigi beats every level 9 CPU in SSBM without touching the controller
19:16:13 <Fiora> it's kind of amazing
19:17:29 <Vorpal> <kmc> in Deus Ex you could beat the first level without killing anyone, and you got an achievement or whatever for it, but also your cybernetically enhanced killing machine coworkers would look at your funny <-- you can get through that entire game not killing anyone
19:17:53 <Vorpal> kmc, iirc there are some exploits you can use to not kill the bosses iirc
19:18:13 <Vorpal> in Deus Ex: Human you do have to kill the bosses though. So that is like... 3 kills?
19:18:23 <kmc> also http://i.imgur.com/dAtcCfH.gif wheeeee
19:18:34 <Vorpal> Deus Ex HR was a great game with bad boss fights.
19:18:36 <Phantom_Hoover> you can complete HR without killing anyone because the bossfights in that game NEVER HAPPENED
19:18:37 <Bike> it's reasonably common to have "pacifist" gameplay in games that aren't unabashed killfests
19:18:44 <Vorpal> Really didn't like those bosses.
19:18:47 <Bike> kmc: incredible
19:18:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah yes, quite so
19:19:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, actually, going non-lethal in the tutorial was a bitch
19:20:08 <Vorpal> Bike, yeah I always play my stealth games non-lethal and non-seen.
19:20:30 <Bike> and here's what i know about HR bossfights http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/9/2
19:20:54 <Vorpal> <kmc> also http://i.imgur.com/dAtcCfH.gif wheeeee <-- LP snake?
19:21:13 <kmc> did you know that the Shadow Chancellor of the UK is named ED BALLS
19:21:20 <kmc> today is Ed Balls Day
19:21:30 <elliott> kmc: you know literally every time i see snake
19:21:33 <elliott> it makes me want to implement a snake game
19:21:38 <elliott> Vorpal: chances in the shadows
19:21:44 <Vorpal> elliott, easy one to implement
19:21:45 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah the UK has a Shadow Chancellor
19:21:47 <elliott> like he controls all the gambling but only the kind that goes on in dark back alleys
19:21:51 <Vorpal> kmc, what does that mean
19:21:53 <kmc> the title is much cooler than the actual office
19:21:56 <Bike> imo just use M-x snake like a real man etc jokes
19:22:09 <Vorpal> elliott, pull the other one
19:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the Opposition cabinet is called the shadow cabinet
19:22:14 <Bike> shadow chancellor is the opposition leader, right?
19:22:19 <FreeFull> There was only one real programmer
19:22:23 <elliott> Vorpal i just don't feel that way about you :(
19:22:39 <Phantom_Hoover> don't think there's a name for opposition leader beyond 'leader of the opposition'
19:22:43 <Bike> UK government is so beautifully ridiculous
19:22:49 <kmc> Chancellor of the Exchequer is the minister in charge of the money
19:22:56 <kmc> phat stacks of £££
19:22:58 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: leave me to my fantasies sir
19:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> not to be confused with the First Lord of the Treasury
19:23:13 <kmc> they're sort of #2 in the government overall I guess?
19:23:29 <Bike> since i found out about the outlawries joke i'm pretty convinced the elected government is just an elaborate joke and the country is actually ruled by king murdoch or whatever
19:23:30 <kmc> Vorpal: and there's a "shadow cabinet" composed of whatever party isn't currently in power
19:23:37 <elliott> the chancellor of the exchequer is the guy who invests the gambling-related murders of people who used to handle cheques
19:23:37 <Bike> outlawries bill*
19:23:47 <kmc> basically it's the Shadow Chancellor's job to complain constantly about the real Chancellor
19:23:48 <Vorpal> kmc, oh yeah, the stupid "mostly two party" system
19:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> the title of prime minister is fun because it's basically a giant ball of random important titles bundled together
19:23:58 <kmc> i think that's all he does
19:24:13 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? What is the full string?
19:24:18 <FreeFull> The prime minister is odd, because he isn't two
19:24:26 <Vorpal> kmc, but aren't there three parties in UK?
19:24:30 <elliott> kmc: should i write a snake game
19:24:44 <Vorpal> elliott, yes, that fits in the MBR
19:24:47 <kmc> https://twitter.com/edballsmp/status/63623585020915713
19:24:59 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, I don't know how they decide which party or parties is the opposition
19:25:14 <Bike> kmc: yep now i'm certain
19:25:20 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:25:38 <Bike> no way this is real. real government figures were be shouting about aborting muslims or something
19:26:11 <Koen_> Taneb: ThatOtherPerson has been looking for you
19:26:20 <elliott> Vorpal: well I was going to do it in Haskell.
19:26:26 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: I forgot that I was going to someone's birthday party
19:26:30 <Vorpal> <kmc> https://twitter.com/edballsmp/status/63623585020915713 <-- is that retweets or?
19:26:37 <Vorpal> I don't really know how twitter works
19:26:45 <kmc> Vorpal: is which
19:26:50 <elliott> Vorpal: ed balls tweeted the string "Ed Balls"
19:26:52 <kmc> it shows the tweet, then replies
19:27:04 <kmc> the little icons next to the retweet / favorite count are the ppl who have rt'd / fav'd it
19:27:07 <Bike> Vorpal: yes that's how i know my gov't is real
19:27:18 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: on the other hand, I now own a collection of Thor comics
19:27:18 <Vorpal> kmc, right, but why is there nothing the guy in question himself says in your link
19:27:23 -!- augur has joined.
19:27:30 <Bike> Vorpal: no he says "Ed Balls". that's the tweet
19:27:51 <Vorpal> Bike, Looks like "Ed Balls" is the name of that guy???
19:27:59 <Bike> it's also the tweet.
19:28:07 <Bike> i know this may be a little complicated to understand
19:28:09 <Vorpal> Bike, look here is his twitter: https://twitter.com/edballsmp
19:28:24 <kmc> that's the joke
19:28:26 <Vorpal> Oh I guess that is a tweet, not just a title at the top
19:28:28 <elliott> Bike: have you noticed Vorpal is swedish. you'll never be able to explain anything to him
19:28:36 <kmc> he tweeted just his own name
19:28:42 <Jafet> Is that the multithreaded version of edball
19:28:45 <Vorpal> elliott, understanding social media is hopeless.
19:28:54 <Vorpal> elliott, a lot of it make no bloody sense.
19:29:00 <Bike> btw here is what a proper government looks like http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/06/redistribution_1.html
19:29:06 <kmc> like a pokémon
19:29:10 <Bike> (everybody read this it's amazing)
19:29:29 <olsner> elliott: does that apply to all swedes or just Vorpal?
19:29:49 <Vorpal> olsner, (too bad for you)
19:30:42 <elliott> olsner: well I don't know you're pretty good
19:31:32 <Bike> oh also, i was reading an old book the other day and it mentioned a Dr. Butt
19:31:35 <Bike> wasn't sure what to think about that
19:31:46 <Bike> it was published in like 1806 so definitely before the invention of humor
19:33:21 <Bike> is Butt a british name?
19:33:28 <kmc> "An Ed Balls bookmarklet[7] tool allows users to change the text on an entire webpage to the name “Ed Balls” (shown below)."
19:33:53 <fizzie> I told Steam to do something that "require[s] an Internet connection and a few minutes' time", two hours ago; it's still claiming to be doing that something.
19:34:08 <elliott> Bike: hmmmmm the name bryan caplan is familiar
19:34:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what something?
19:34:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, also is that for Linux or Windows?
19:34:23 <Bike> elliott: i'm sorry to hear that
19:34:53 <elliott> Punchline: Through the lens of the Jock/Nerd Theory of History, the welfare state doesn't look like a serious effort to "equalize outcomes." It looks more like a serious effort to block the "revenge of the nerds" - to keep them from using their financial success to unseat the jocks on every dimension of social status.
19:35:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Windows, and the window says it's doing "game content conversion". It's for Cogs. (Thought I'd spend a few moments clicking things.)
19:35:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah that might be annoying
19:35:40 <Bike> elliott: american political discourse
19:35:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, Especially with a game like Cogs I would assume it is broken by now
19:35:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, that save file should be pretty small
19:36:20 <Bike> elliott: (if it helps, imagine Thatcher wearing coke bottle glasses and a pocket protector)
19:36:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: I told Steam to exit, and then restarted it, and now it's performing "first time setup" of Cogs. Oh well.
19:36:58 <kmc> i would want some citations on the claim that in 'primitive tribes' the nerds get beat up
19:37:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch, You probably lost saves then
19:37:17 <kmc> also don't believe that hunting and farming are about brute strength
19:37:18 <Fiora> is it just me or does the whole jock/nerd thing ignore everyone who isn't white and a dude basically
19:37:47 <Jafet> On the internet, you will hear many claims of doing something the "first time".
19:37:56 <Bike> kmc: as an economist, i can assure you that human development is exactly as depicted in 80s films about high school
19:37:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think all my saves were on the non-Steam Linux version, anyway. I just noticed it has achievements in Steam, and thought I should do some of those. I mean, achievements.
19:38:05 <kmc> Fiora: not entirely, but that's largely true
19:38:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, you like achivements? Why?
19:38:40 <kmc> i think for women the stereotypes are pretty vs. smart rather than strong vs. smart
19:38:43 <kmc> which makes even less sense
19:38:48 <Jafet> Fiora: don't forget californian
19:39:02 <Vorpal> kmc, brunette vs. blond?
19:39:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's some sort of a thing.
19:39:28 <Phantom_Hoover> and albinos i guess although they probably come under blonde
19:39:37 <kmc> wait, that Ed Balls tweet was sent at 4:20 PM
19:39:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that was nebulous...
19:39:49 <elliott> This post led Bradford DeLong to call Caplan "the stupidest man alive".[35]
19:39:51 <Bike> ed balls for president of england
19:39:53 <kmc> that's what http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/proof-that-the-ed-balls-meme-is-really-getting-out-of-hand says
19:40:04 <Bike> elliott: excellent
19:40:28 <Bike> "In April 2010, he caused controversy with a blog post that argued that women were more free in the 1880s than they are in the 21st century" sounds like a good post
19:40:39 <kmc> ed balls did? or nerd economist guy?
19:40:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well I believe the stereotypes is blond = pretty but stupid & vulnerable, brunette = can take care of themselves, ginger = ?
19:40:58 <Bike> and god he just LOOKS like a nerd too
19:41:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:41:06 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BryanCaplan.jpg look at this fucking face!
19:41:23 <Bike> that's what /i'd/ look like as a fucking economist i betcha
19:41:29 <Bike> what the hell is the tie pattern
19:42:48 <Bike> does anyone read delong's blog? i have a friend who does but he's way more into economics than i'll ever be
19:43:34 <Jafet> White middle class male american economics
19:43:42 <Jafet> Probably insightful
19:44:33 <Bike> well it's like that or marxists and have you /read/ marxists recently
19:44:54 <kmc> mostly I hate the jocks vs. nerds stuff because wealthy grown men use it as an excuse for bad behavior
19:45:49 <Taneb> kmc: today I was on a train casually reading a comic when someone compared me to the big bang theory, and there were enough drunk football fans to warrant a police presence
19:46:00 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:46:11 <elliott> Taneb: did you punch them and rely on the police to back you up
19:46:30 <Taneb> elliott: I can't punch
19:46:38 <elliott> Taneb: just like $nerd from $media!
19:46:44 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you know they weren't comparing you to the actual theory
19:46:58 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I just realized... now that I have money, I could buy an AW citizenship <-- something tells me we should have seen this coming.
19:46:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: they had my legs
19:47:02 <Bike> remember to bite in truly bad situations
19:47:23 <Bike> i'm kind of confused here, did you actually get beaten up
19:47:25 <Taneb> Also I was not sure whether they were comparing me to the theory, TV show or song
19:47:38 <Taneb> However the TV show makes most sense in context
19:47:43 <Taneb> Bike: I was not beaten up
19:48:05 <elliott> what's baffling me is like...
19:48:11 <elliott> were they actually comparing you to the /show/
19:48:14 <elliott> and not any particular character on it
19:48:35 <Taneb> The person literally said "This guy looks like the big bang theory"
19:48:51 <Taneb> And she touched my comic book!
19:48:55 <Taneb> My shiny knew comic book!
19:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (i am now uncomfortably aware of the fact that even the muffled intonation of that show annoys the hell out of me)
19:49:02 <Bike> female jocks?? what is this madness
19:49:03 <elliott> truly awful btw you're reminding me of this guy i once knew
19:49:10 <Bike> that's impossible!!!
19:49:11 <elliott> well by knew i mean... well let's not get into that, but anyway
19:49:15 <Taneb> Bike: I think this was "girlfriend of the jock"
19:49:16 <oerjan> Taneb: is she your nemesis
19:49:41 <Taneb> oerjan: I have never seen her before, do not intend to see her again, do not know her name, and cannot remember what she looks like
19:49:55 <Bike> ok what's the opposite of synecdoche
19:49:56 <oerjan> Taneb: oh dear, a secret nemesis
19:50:06 <Jafet> White middle class male american jocks
19:50:07 <Bike> oh, the opposite of synecdoche is synecdoche
19:50:09 <Bike> very convenient
19:50:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Jafet, why do you keep saying white middle class american male
19:50:19 <Bike> anyway drunk people are good at that i guess. good to know.
19:50:49 <Taneb> Jafet: only a third of those words are correct
19:51:05 <Taneb> "White working class female British jocks"
19:51:27 <Taneb> My comic book with Jane Foster!
19:51:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I can't count right now
19:51:57 <Bike> Jane Foster is a Marvel Comics supporting character who for many years was the nurse employed by Dr. Donald Blake, the secret identity of the Norse god superhero Thor.
19:52:12 <Taneb> Not since the bendy straw pentagram
19:52:46 <Jafet> Ok, five-sixths correct is good.
19:53:14 <Jafet> I think the remaining incorrect word was "jock"
19:54:13 <ThatOtherPerson> people at school say that I remind them of someone, maybe his name was Sheldon, from the Big Bang Theory
19:54:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I think she was geordie
19:54:27 <ThatOtherPerson> I've never watched the show, so I don't know if that's good or bad...
19:54:33 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: bad
19:54:48 <Bike> you should get swole
19:54:49 <Jafet> It's an american sitcom
19:54:58 <Bike> american sitcoms are bad
19:55:06 <Taneb> It means you're an antisocial nerd with OCD
19:55:14 <Bike> white middle class male american sitcom
19:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> and so any kinds of Weird-ness are instantly associated with him
19:55:45 <ThatOtherPerson> Is it better that they then say that I'm not really like Sheldon afterwards?
19:55:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (my favourite thing about this is that they can't actually decide on a way of being consistently weird so they just have him Act Weird in every episode in wildly inconsistent ways)
19:56:05 <Bike> it doesn't really matter anyway, for reasons roughly explained by phantom
19:56:09 <Bike> they probably mean well
19:56:09 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wow you're sure being a SHELDON about this
19:56:20 <Bike> people are not assholes, generally speaking
19:56:21 <elliott> (i've seen like five minutes of the big bang theory)
19:57:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, man i got so angry for a second there before my higher thought processes pointed out it was a joke
19:58:16 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: your "higher thought processes", uh huh, keep going, sheldon
19:58:40 <elliott> alternajoke higher thought processes? [adjoint joke]
19:59:35 <kmc> <Bike> american sitcoms are bad ← not all just many / most
19:59:40 <elliott> just say no Phantom_Hoover
20:00:07 <Bike> follow up the nerdinsult joke with a category theory joke. good
20:00:12 <Jafet> Most of those sitcoms exist to make the remaining ones look good
20:00:57 <elliott> Bike: is it really a category theory joke if you just rely on it sounding like "a joint" a lot
20:00:57 <kmc> Community is good, although kind of inconsistent
20:01:01 <kmc> quality wise
20:01:10 <kmc> it's good because they try a lot of strange inventive things and they mostly work
20:01:12 <elliott> adjoint functor and now she's all funked
20:01:18 <kmc> not because they do any one thing really well
20:01:29 <kmc> i have some gripes with the show especially now that it's in its 4th season and the original showrunner left
20:01:36 <Bike> elliott: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mclzvopMTU1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg
20:01:54 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: look shachaf started it
20:01:59 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, yes i stopped at season 3 and told myself "and they all lived dysfunctionally ever after"
20:02:24 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mce4i9m3i51rdbszlo1_400.png so simple, and yet so perfect
20:02:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, i like how catalonia has been harried before the new zealand advance
20:02:36 <Taneb> Catalonia isn't there!
20:02:59 <Bike> Taneb: yeah it is, it's west of prussia
20:03:06 <Bike> didn't you even take history class
20:03:07 <elliott> i mix up catalonia and caledonia
20:03:37 <kmc> good American sitcoms: 30 Rock, Community, Arrested Development, Seinfeld, Louie (if that counts as a sitcom, Veep (if that counts as American), Parks and Recreation, The Office (first few seasons and yes, I know it's not the same as the British one, but it's good in its own way)
20:03:57 <Bike> 30 rock is great at least
20:04:12 <kmc> 30 rock had some meh seasons too but yes, in its prime it was fucking fantastic
20:04:17 <kmc> i've been rewatching season 2 and... wow
20:04:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i like parks and rec but for a while i wasn't really sure if it was just the theme tune i like
20:04:46 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbxyqy3rIm1rdbszlo1_1280.png this one's for your teacher
20:05:00 <Bike> man the more i look at this the more fucked it is
20:05:14 <kmc> oh Better Off Ted is also quite good
20:05:28 <Taneb> Catalonia's east of Prussia, you nitwit
20:05:32 <Bike> apparently kokand is a city in uzbekistan
20:05:41 <kmc> and I also mix up Catalonia and Caledonia
20:05:46 <kmc> and New Catalonia and New Caledonia
20:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, is this just where the name generator assigns places
20:06:15 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: no, the places start out where they did in reality
20:06:28 <Bike> though this might be edited? i can't imagine the shit that must have gone down to make this happen
20:06:51 <Bike> but i mean hey, in real life the turks were from like mongolia and now they're where the byzantines were, so who fucking knows
20:07:33 <Taneb> And weren't the celts like originally from north India or something
20:08:02 <Bike> i think you'd have to back to indo-europeans for that
20:08:11 <Bike> in which case they'd be from like uh... i think like ukraine?
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20:08:53 <Taneb> And now they're a football team from Glasgow
20:09:00 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IE_expansion.png yeah like crimea or some shit
20:09:18 <Bike> or the caucasus, wow i suck at geography??
20:09:50 <kmc> it began in afrika ka ka ka ka ka ka ka
20:09:52 <Bike> celtic laws have some similarities with like the vedas though, so that's cool. yay historical linguistics
20:09:56 <Bike> that's a good song
20:10:11 <Bike> is what ireland
20:10:24 <Bike> oh in scandinavia? seems so
20:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, fun fact, all the 'big' football teams in scotland are descended from irish sectarianism
20:15:47 <Taneb> Even Berwick Rangers
20:16:33 <Taneb> berwick rangers 5eva
20:20:43 <Taneb> That's not very eva
20:22:33 <Taneb> Indeed, that's barely eva at all
20:24:00 <kmc> can anyone tell me if 323881938846738047746870455602874074901336126707685518455811764915667973569999865537886964769040496686033405297612705110899842872859133005347540587475353582859705921325259462979638585820989306894214743679831554044493873890738256566574450230154534309506024889546552539655250471277326377578604547835848811647989 is prime
20:24:18 <fizzie> Why don't you just pass that to factor(1).
20:24:29 <Bike> well factor isn't a person
20:24:42 <kmc> factor complains it's too large :3
20:24:52 <fizzie> What, a thousand bits is too large!
20:24:59 <fizzie> Well, a thousand and twenty-four and so.
20:25:08 <elliott> kmc: (this is a classical statement btw)
20:25:50 <Jafet> ? isprime(323881938846738047746870455602874074901336126707685518455811764915667973569999865537886964769040496686033405297612705110899842872859133005347540587475353582859705921325259462979638585820989306894214743679831554044493873890738256566574450230154534309506024889546552539655250471277326377578604547835848811647989)
20:25:58 <Bike> non-classicists are not allowed to say "yes"
20:26:17 <elliott> Bike: well I didn't identify the person who could tell him that
20:26:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: no
20:26:24 <Bike> yes i get the joke
20:26:55 <Bike> how do you know?
20:26:57 <fizzie> Given a number that's around 1024 bits long, I'd a priori have assumed it's the product of two primes.
20:27:01 <elliott> Bike: i wasn't sure since like
20:27:35 <Bike> elliott: a biologist reading classic texts
20:27:42 <Bike> "Birds: Their Form and Function"
20:27:45 <Bike> it's a manual for birds
20:27:51 <elliott> pretty sure birds don't know anything about formal logic
20:28:12 <Bike> haven't you ever read To Mock a Mockingbird
20:28:15 <Bike> shachaf beat this guy up
20:28:21 <kmc> are there ISO standards pertaining to birds
20:29:31 <Taneb> kmc: I don't think so
20:29:32 <Bike> "Scripture facts on Abomination, Birds Of. Bible encyclopedia for study of the Bible." this was a good google kmc.
20:29:40 <Taneb> http://www.iso.org/iso/home/search.htm?qt=bird&published=on&active_tab=standards&sort_by=rel
20:30:04 <Taneb> imo birds should be standardised
20:30:05 <Bike> oh, i guess there might be standards for classification (j/k taxonomy is a clusterfuck)
20:30:19 <Bike> "All authorities agree that the exact origin of the word bird, as we apply it to feathered creatures, is unknown." !!!!!
20:30:50 <Bike> hm, bats aren't kosher
20:30:57 <Jafet> Fundamental unsolved problems in ornithology
20:31:15 <Taneb> Jafet: that's etymology...
20:31:20 <Bike> "squid" is also unknown
20:31:24 <Bike> imo etymology is impossible
20:31:40 <Taneb> "penguin"'s also unknown, iirc
20:31:46 <Taneb> It's narrowed down to two
20:32:44 <Bike> This change from regarding the stork as a delicacy to its protection by a death penalty merely indicates the hold the characteristics of the bird had taken on people as it became better known, and also the spread of the regard in which it was held throughout Palestine.
20:34:27 <Bike> "The trunk of a bird is compact and in almost all instances boat-shaped. Without doubt prehistoric man conceived his idea of navigation and fashioned his vessel from the body of a water bird, and then noticed that a soaring bird steered its course with its tail and so added the rudder." mmhm, mmhm.
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20:43:41 <ThatOtherPerson> Something I've been messing around with: http://jsfiddle.net/Mf3VE/1/
20:45:55 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb and I are maybe going to use this to make a game for Ludum Dare
20:46:10 <Taneb> elliott: it's Piet as in the artist, not the programming language
20:46:28 <elliott> how does the gameplay work
20:46:33 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
20:46:36 <Taneb> elliott: it doesn't yet
21:01:53 <fizzie> Huh, arecord only accepts sample rates up to 192 kHz.
21:02:24 <pikhq> Shame. I really want to use ALSA for all my digital signal sampling.
21:04:34 <fizzie> I don't think ALSA per se has such a limitation -- snd_pcm_hw_params_get_rate_max call says 448 kHz is just fine -- it's just the arecord tool.
21:05:52 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lrarI8Zs1rdbszlo1_1280.jpg wisely did Send Delegate to the Pope
21:07:21 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lqtbA2OX1rdbszlo1_500.png fuck you, france
21:08:50 <elliott> mnoqy: Hoel III wisely made the decision to Send Delegate to the Pope.
21:09:18 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lqimFtnM1rdbszlo1_500.png do you even know anything about canada
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21:16:31 <Bike> elliott: related: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lsjeRbUg1rdbszlo1_1280.png
21:17:20 <elliott> Bike: btw link mnoqy to the blog of these
21:17:21 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8lsjeRbUg1rdbszlo2_1280.png turkey, turkey, turkey, turkey,
21:17:23 <elliott> maybe he will 'understand'
21:17:29 <Bike> mnoqy: http://believableworlds.tumblr.com/ do you understand
21:17:41 <zzo38> Is this color better? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Userboxes/program_famicom
21:19:36 <mnoqy> Bike: i understood from the 'get go'
21:20:56 <Bike> it's ok. we'll love and support you no matter what. we're your parents
21:21:19 <elliott> Bike: woha you're mnoqy's parents too???
21:21:32 <Bike> we should get married
21:21:43 <elliott> ok sure but you have to stop being a biologist
21:21:57 <Bike> what if i went into.................. anthropology
21:22:12 <elliott> can it be mathematical anthropology, does that exist, it has to
21:22:17 <elliott> computational anthropology
21:22:35 <Bike> there' actually a PLoS blog about neuroanthropology iirc
21:22:37 <elliott> mnoqy: tell us the problem
21:23:18 <Bike> The aim of CAIRS -- Computational and Informatic Anthropology -- is to contribute to anthropology and the fields that impinge on it by helping to develop on-line archives and field-study resources, provide new methods and means for investigating problems bearing on human populations, to promote the use of computers in the practice of anthropology, and to advise and provide information resources for the anthropology community worldwide and for
21:24:10 <Bike> http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/abdesign.shtml oh yes
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22:00:27 <zzo38> There is a tree structure where each node has a name. The names are not necessarily unique. The names also have a length. The nodes need to be colored red, yellow, and blue, in order to reduce the total cost of all the nodes. The cost shall be zero for red or blue nodes if their youngest ancestor of the same color has the same name, and equal to the length of their names otherwise.
22:00:34 <zzo38> What is the algorithm to do this?
22:07:12 <kmc> the algorithm is a MAX-SAT solver ;)
22:07:16 <kmc> but maybe there is a clever way as well
22:07:32 <kmc> what is the cost of a yellow node?
22:07:47 <zzo38> The length of the name.
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22:09:59 <kmc> if i write code like this will people want to punch me:
22:10:00 <kmc> sys.stdout.write('\rTesting %s done\x1B[K\n' % (name,))
22:12:42 <zzo38> I don't know, but I don't.
22:12:56 <kmc> also if i write code that's like try { return something; } finally { some cleanup; }
22:13:35 <zzo38> What is the point of that?
22:15:04 <fizzie> kmc: A true Pythonman would probably want to punch you for using the % operator.
22:15:17 <kmc> fizzie: oh because we're supposed to use .format() now?
22:15:34 <elliott> is that a thing people care about
22:15:50 <zzo38> Well, I think the % operator in that way in Python is not really bad
22:16:01 <fizzie> I believe I have been told that % is very depurkkated by the Formatter format strings.
22:16:12 <elliott> okay well i suggest kmc write it in haskell instead, imo
22:16:39 <kmc> zzo38: say that 'something' is an expression that could throw an exception. i want to do cleanup as the function exits whether or not it's an exceptional exit
22:17:20 <fizzie> "This method of string formatting is the new standard in Python 3, and should be preferred to the % formatting described in String Formatting Operations in new code." <- Python v2.7.4 documentation / Built-in Types.
22:17:20 <kmc> this alternative might be easier to understand at a glance: try { res = something; } finally { cleanup; }; return res;
22:17:24 <zzo38> kmc: In that case it is OK, I guess.
22:17:36 <kmc> but i don't like the extra statement and unnecessary extra variable
22:17:52 <zzo38> Yes, I would say try { return ... is OK, even if other people don't like it.
22:18:07 <kmc> i think (since this is actually Python) the pythonic and also nicer option would be to make a context manager for this cleanup
22:19:03 <kmc> but i can't be bothered for my small case
22:19:11 <kmc> Go has an interesting solution to this problem: http://golang.org/doc/articles/defer_panic_recover.html
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22:19:37 <zzo38> Well, I think try { return something; } finally { some cleanup; } is OK for such purpose.
22:20:11 <kmc> basically there's syntax for pushing a statement onto a queue of things that will run whenever the current function exits
22:21:01 <elliott> go's exception handling is uh
22:21:11 <kmc> i wouldn't call this exception handling
22:21:14 <elliott> by which I think I mean "bullshit"
22:21:21 <kmc> at least the 'defer' part by itself isn't
22:21:40 <FreeFull> What do you guys think about Rust?
22:21:48 <kmc> it sounds cool
22:21:58 <kmc> it's more interesting than Go from a language nerd perspective
22:22:05 <kmc> i don't know which one would ultimately be better for getting shit done
22:22:16 <kmc> Rust is definitely more ambitious in terms of the tradeoff of performance and static safety
22:22:32 <elliott> i would be quite happy if rust replaced C overnight i think
22:22:44 <FreeFull> Rust seems to be borrowing from a lot of different languages
22:22:55 <elliott> and all the reasons I have seen to not be 100% on board with it have roughly consisted of it being *too* conservative
22:23:05 <kmc> isn't it uh...
22:23:08 <kmc> not totally baked yet
22:23:25 <kmc> replacing C overnight with something unusable seems poor
22:23:36 <kmc> lololololololololol
22:23:39 <elliott> but yes obviously I meant a working version
22:23:49 <elliott> if all the world's code was written in rust, rust would work
22:24:04 <FreeFull> I'm guessing it'll be good for general usage once it hits 1.0
22:24:06 <kmc> elliott: look real programmers use C and never ever make mistakes, if you ever make a mistake of any kind you are an idiot who should never be near a keyboard
22:24:25 <elliott> kmc is just bitter because he makes mistakes
22:24:34 <kmc> in @ mistakes are impossible
22:24:41 <FreeFull> There isn't a programmer that never made a mistake
22:24:43 <elliott> no they're possible it just detects them
22:24:44 <kmc> btw is @ so named because it comes before A in the alphabet?
22:25:03 <elliott> kmc: that's a good reason to call something @ but have you heard my pedantic explanation of how @ is not actually @'s name yet
22:25:08 <FreeFull> kmc: In Polish it's called a monkey
22:25:34 <elliott> kmc: because let me tell you
22:25:38 <elliott> I looooove delivering that explanation
22:25:47 <Bike> @ for king of europe
22:26:32 <fizzie> In Finnish @ is sometimes called "cat's tail". Also sometimes something like "meow-meow". (But not often.)
22:26:46 <elliott> i think kmc wisely ran away
22:26:51 <kmc> elliott: no tell me
22:27:08 <kmc> i accidentally turned on my xbox with my foot
22:27:33 <fizzie> kmc: It has a foot fetish?!
22:27:50 <elliott> kmc: ok so i suck at naming things and like all things about @ am incessantly perfectionist about it
22:27:58 <elliott> kmc: @ is actually an english-language macro that expands to whatever name i will give @ in the future
22:27:58 <mnoqy> fizie......................
22:28:12 <elliott> kmc: i think you will agree that this is genius
22:28:27 <kmc> fizzie: apparently
22:28:29 <elliott> also whenever i do give it a name i'll get gregor to sed -i 's/@/thename/g' over the logs
22:31:11 <mnoqy> i forget, what's your answer to things like
22:31:48 <Bike> that use of the macro is clearly quoted mnoqy
22:31:52 <mnoqy> "'@' a very weird word"
22:32:24 <kmc> `(hello ,@(elliott))
22:32:24 <mnoqy> > text (reverse "@")
22:32:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (hello: not found
22:32:49 <elliott> mnoqy: are you saying you've never seen lambdabot be wrong
22:33:06 <elliott> Bike: no there's no quoting
22:33:10 <elliott> it'll even get expanded in email addresses
22:33:18 <mnoqy> lambdabot's telling the truth!!it really can't find L.hs
22:33:25 <elliott> it's not my fault people have been persistently misusing the @ codepoint for decades
22:33:32 <mnoqy> too busy answering your DUMB USELESS '1' QERY
22:33:40 <mnoqy> poor lambdabot :'[[[
22:34:16 <mnoqy> should have used something more obscure as a macro
22:34:51 <Bike> perfection shouldn't have to care about previous (and WRONG) usage, mnoqy.
22:34:52 <mnoqy> or used something sensible like a "working name"
22:34:59 <elliott> mnoqy: are you suggesting @ is based around compromising my vision for the sake of others
22:35:07 <elliott> i don't think you get it at all!
22:35:20 <elliott> it was called elliottOS at first but that's ugly and too long to type and also it's not really an OS anyway
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22:40:07 <Bike> wow that might actually be worse
22:40:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: no that was like your thing
22:40:30 <elliott> that i convinced you should be @ instead
22:40:36 <elliott> embrace, extend, extinguish
22:40:46 <Bike> imo, @ should be that language Chaitin made that's like lisp with apl syntax
22:41:09 <elliott> i think @'s language was going to basically be agda but better last time i thought about it
22:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> or rather FRP with bells on and something else which made it better
22:42:37 <kmc> frrrrrrrrp
22:45:08 <elliott> also something about quoting. it'd be the best, in summary
22:46:40 <Bike> i hear quoting is unhygenic
22:47:12 <mnoqy> imo make it b/c of i want the best
22:52:39 <elliott> no but ais523 calls his own thing elliottcraft
22:53:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, elliottcraft is my language/game
22:53:29 <ais523> it's kind-of not particularly specified
22:53:36 <ais523> I think I have a spec lying around somewhere I can pastebin
22:53:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember doing the modelling for the elliottcraft prototype
22:54:17 <ais523> http://sprunge.us/RKMQ
22:54:26 <ais523> as always with ais523 work-in-progress specs, it may or may not make any sensee
22:54:49 <Bike> z is up down eh
22:58:06 <kmc> 'Sometimes, dlls export functions with names which aren’t valid Python identifiers, like "??2@YAPAXI@Z"'
22:58:12 <kmc> great function name imo
22:58:51 <Bike> [THE JOKE IS C++,]
22:58:57 <kmc> quite likely
22:59:43 <kmc> i implemented the Miller–Rabin primality test in Python and I'm using ctypes to test it against OpenSSL
23:00:08 <coppro> ais523: it probably makes more sense than grammartree :P
23:02:14 <coppro> especially as I go in and try to make things more like real grammar
23:02:22 <coppro> (grammar is hard, let's go shopping. for CUBES, presumably)
23:02:51 <fizzie> "IEC958_SUBFRAME. Stays crunchy ... ... even in milk." (Google page summary, start of.)
23:04:06 <fizzie> (I was looking at what the ALSA format "IEC958_SUBFRAME_LE" might be. Perhaps it's a method of writing raw IEC958 frames out of the S/PDIF pipe.)
23:07:45 <FireFly> Maybe fungot knows what IEC958_SUBFRAME_LE is?
23:07:45 <fungot> FireFly: i think that in response to the question of whether you want to set the palette, so if you show that macro transformations are useful.
23:08:04 <fizzie> fungot: Is it what I think it is?
23:08:04 <fungot> fizzie: oh you're talking about. ;p http://www.slengpung.com/ v3/ fnord
23:08:19 <fizzie> fungot: No, that's not what I'm talking about.
23:08:20 <fungot> fizzie: i pime fnord 12. ( yes, there are some written in smalltalk: squeak.
23:08:30 <coppro> ais523: factory cube-factory cube interaction is left unspecified
23:08:38 <coppro> also you have a hanging sentence at the end of the conveor cube section
23:08:46 <ais523> yeah, I noticed that hanging sentence rereading it
23:08:57 <ais523> factory/factory interacts like mobile/mobile, anyway
23:09:00 <ais523> they just push each other
23:09:21 <ais523> I think that's the default
23:11:12 <kmc> factory cube, factory cube, factory cube hates triangle cube
23:11:33 <elliott> it's stuck in my fucking head now
23:11:36 <kmc> what's IEC958... oh it's S/PDIF?
23:11:39 <kmc> elliott: you're welcome
23:12:43 <ais523> also, just looking at this, there's too much randomness in action resolution
23:13:05 <ais523> really it should be entirely deterministic, to ease hashlife-style processing
23:13:35 <elliott> maybe i should put flood on
23:14:20 <ais523> anyway, factory cubes seem to be indestructible
23:14:24 <ais523> but I'm not sure that's a problem
23:14:36 <ais523> I've been wondering if there's a way to dig an infinitely growing pit that you can just drop them down
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23:25:11 <HackEgo> 590) <Phantom_Hoover> I think the worst part of growing up is that it isn't retroactive.
23:25:31 <Bike> what does that even mean
23:26:37 <Bike> i'm pretty sure past me continued on to be present me
23:26:48 <kmc> the past is a grotesque animal
23:26:58 <kmc> and in its eyes you see, how completely wrong you can be
23:27:25 <shachaf> The elephant is a growtusk animal.
23:28:33 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/002719ea5041eea5f32942c6371d29dd/tumblr_mlxin2L1b51rlkewbo1_1280.png
23:29:01 <mnoqy> experience with beans
23:30:31 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/6613166321d75d542cde3ed5852e2e85/tumblr_mlwz717Xf11rlkewbo1_1280.png this one's for shachaf
23:30:51 <kmc> where are these from
23:30:58 <kmc> i wanna see if any sites i made in middle school show up
23:31:21 <Bike> http://oneterabyteofkilobyteage.tumblr.com/
23:31:36 <Bike> an outgrowth of that "you can download the entirety of geocities for some reason" thing
23:32:18 <kmc> are these... real screenshots of Windows 95
23:32:33 <mnoqy> kmc: they made a diagram of how they do it
23:32:49 <kmc> i think my shit was on angelfire
23:33:24 <kmc> anime has been one of the reasons the internet has grown so quickly in the recent years
23:33:26 <mnoqy> http://contemporary-home-computing.org/1tb/wp-content/uploads/screenshots-proxy.svg
23:33:30 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: lemme save you through looking through the terabyte: no
23:33:38 <kmc> is that supposed to have text
23:33:47 <Bike> that's a fucking great diagram
23:33:49 <mnoqy> http://contemporary-home-computing.org/1tb/archives/3808 try this one
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23:34:20 <kmc> http://contemporary-home-computing.org/1tb/wp-content/uploads/tumblr_mlfjf3xX5g1rlkewbo1_12805.png
23:34:56 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: yeah but you can't make that work with tiled backgrounds and framesets anyway
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23:37:12 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/df1e21c0c7c9e77649155518bf57eb20/tumblr_mlwo30gWm21rlkewbo1_1280.png this is approaching actual design
23:37:26 <kmc> i mean it's ugly but someone did put effort into it
23:37:40 <kmc> Freedom's Just Another Word For Nothing Left To Loose
23:37:47 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/f36246b3f5e43d2d46b9eaa452635bbe/tumblr_mlwb4ftQbc1rlkewbo1_1280.png hm this design is alright
23:39:15 <fizzie> "steve's intense web" page at Bike's link was so intense, it left me reeling.
23:39:23 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/faed6e672b8b88ef5f81e6d689e6a4a6/tumblr_mlvjccYHUq1rlkewbo1_1280.png
23:40:04 <kmc> i enjoy the mojibake but it might be better if they fixed it
23:40:27 <elliott> well that's what it'd hvae looked like irl
23:40:51 <kmc> presumably not if you spoke the language in question
23:40:52 <Bike> only because you have some anglophone locale.
23:40:59 <kmc> at least there would be a reasonable chance of it coming out ok
23:41:18 <Bike> unmarked shift-jis would work great on a defaultly installed japanese windows 95, probably
23:41:26 <kmc> i think if you're russian in this era you have your browser set to KOI8-R by default or something
23:41:34 <elliott> well so it's from the perspective of a western person browsing the web
23:41:36 <kmc> and/or have traded your computer for old shoes to eat
23:41:46 <elliott> like the OS is clearly not japanese
23:42:00 <mnoqy> western person browsing SO MANY anime sites
23:42:00 <kmc> welp just more anglocentric history I guess >_<
23:42:02 <Bike> eurocentrism in our internet research
23:42:14 <Bike> mnoqy: acccurate portrait of our history
23:42:49 <elliott> kmc: i mean if it installed a japanese os for the japanese pages that would be cool
23:43:01 <elliott> but i don't think just fixing the mojibake and leaving the rest equal would make it better
23:43:14 <Bike> well, i suppose it's automated, and the pages probably don't have their locales marked very well
23:43:25 <elliott> well it's easy to detect char encoding in 2013
23:44:05 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/5e8db0be081fb264eaef4fdcececaa92/tumblr_mlvowfPpAA1rlkewbo1_1280.png this strikes me as very 'monqy style'
23:45:34 <mnoqy> i wish real life could be more like oneterabyteofkilobyteage
23:46:38 <elliott> Bike: that background makes me think http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/84062663/Emergency++I+High+Quality+PNG.png
23:46:55 <mnoqy> is that an album art
23:47:01 <kmc> why 'kilobyte age'
23:47:15 <pikhq> elliott: It's very nontrivial to detect Shift-JIS in particular.
23:47:18 <mnoqy> i should listen to this album because it has good art
23:47:37 <elliott> i think the reissue had a less great cover :'(
23:48:06 <mnoqy> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Displan-emergency.jpg apparently
23:48:35 <Bike> so i saw http://24.media.tumblr.com/128054f91cf826e316b13b71bdbe56fb/tumblr_mlvk9oXBOF1rlkewbo1_1280.png and tried to find the guy
23:48:41 <Bike> which led me to the full page: http://www.reocities.com/collegepark/union/4138/
23:49:07 <Sgeo> Just because I signed up for Amazon instant prime, and plan on buying stuff through Amazon, doesn't mean I should have gone with Kindle instead of Nook a while ago, right?
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23:54:18 <HackEgo> cone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:54:19 <Sgeo> `welcome conehead
23:54:21 <HackEgo> conehead: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:03:28 <Sgeo> I LOVE HAVING MONEY
00:03:38 <Sgeo> This is going to go to my head, I think
00:03:49 <Bike> i hear that's the root of something
00:04:12 <elliott> how much money are you giving to charity
00:04:25 <kmc> "If the Euclidean algorithm requires N steps for a pair of natural numbers a > b > 0, the smallest values of a and b for which this is true are the Fibonacci numbers FN+2 and FN+1, respectively."
00:04:45 <Bike> i think i actually understand why that is which is a weird feeling
00:04:48 <kmc> i was looking at the description of euclidean algorithm and thinking it looked fibonacci-ish
00:04:53 <Sgeo> Presumably me donating to a charity some money because I owe a friend that money and that friend wanted me to donate it to that charity instead of giving it to him doesn't count, right?
00:05:07 <Bike> i don't think you "'get"' tzedakah sgeo
00:05:09 <kmc> i like that the complexity of computing fib(n) recursively is O(fib(n))
00:05:24 <fizzie> "We're taking a break from Weekly Sales" well that didn't take long.
00:05:40 <Sgeo> I did donate some money to Doctors Without Borders at the beginning of the year
00:05:57 <Bike> kmc: i wonder if you could draw some analogy with exp and derivation
00:06:17 <Bike> you know, exp being its own derivative
00:06:30 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Euclidean_algorithm_running_time_X_Y.png
00:07:01 <Bike> knuth goes over the complexity of the euclidean algorithm in taocp2, it's scary
00:07:10 <fizzie> Euclidean_algorithm_running_time_X_Y.png looks like one of those laser shows they have.
00:07:14 <Bike> http://murileemartin.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/glennbeckpenalty-600px-01.jpg anyway
00:07:19 <kmc> it would be a good album cover
00:07:25 <Sgeo> You know what the love of money is? Silly. Money in and of itself is... meaningless if you don't use it, on something
00:07:43 <Sgeo> Charity, leisure, to give as an inheritance, etc.
00:07:44 <mnoqy> what sort of money are we talking here
00:07:52 <Bike> fiat money, evidently
00:07:58 <kmc> but if you don't know what to do with it yet, collecting money is a p. good default
00:08:04 <fizzie> Bike: Is that an album cover he's presenting?
00:08:14 <Bike> http://murileemartin.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/glennbeckpenalty-600px-08.jpg close
00:08:21 <elliott> that would be a good album cover
00:09:32 <elliott> todo: steal glenn beck's whiteboard?? i'm sure he archives them right
00:10:06 <mnoqy> Sgeo: and have you been spending your money on anything cool. since you've said you love having money but also
00:11:44 <Bike> http://murileemartin.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/glennbeckpenalty-600px-09.jpg
00:12:02 <Sgeo> Bought my gf Portal and Portal 2. Bought myself an ep of Doctor Who, and plan on doing that instead of watching on TV
00:12:19 <mnoqy> that's a start, i guess
00:12:19 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb I've written up a specification of some of the API of the game engine: https://github.com/T-and-T/LD26/blob/master/spec.md; I'll probably create the basic structure before going to bed
00:12:24 <Sgeo> Repaid my debt that I owed my friend (by giving the money to a specific charity)
00:12:48 <Sgeo> Went out to Dave & Busters with a friend. Went out for dinner with some friends
00:13:17 <kmc> i love how half of the 'pseudocode' in Wikipedia is valid Python if you move around a few semicolons
00:13:49 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb and you can then start filling in stuff for the AIEntity and PlayerEntity and such, and add stuff to the spec
00:14:30 <Sgeo> Bought a book on web security
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00:19:19 <fizzie> LD26 is the dose needed, statistically speaking, for killing 26% of the population.
00:21:17 <ThatOtherPerson> what do you mean its not like staying up late kills you i mean really i am feeling just fine and normal hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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00:21:30 <kmc> elliott: well said
00:21:41 <elliott> it accurately represented my feelings at the time of writing
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00:23:00 <Sgeo> For some reason that reminds me of http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Fisher_Price:_A_Retrospective
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00:25:13 <Bike> you're in that mode of tireness where nothing you say is funny
00:26:31 <Koen_> I just found some kinf of scar behind my left ear
00:26:45 <Koen_> like if I had had plastic surgery or something
00:26:54 <Koen_> what if I'm not me?!
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00:28:20 <Bike> if you knew that, would you be in this situation?
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00:33:39 <Koen_> ThatOtherPerson: are you me
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00:33:59 <Koen_> well i'm about to go to bed
00:34:38 <Koen_> I don't think internet relay hypnosis is a thing
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01:30:00 <Sgeo> Is Pi a good movie?
01:31:18 <kmc> it's a movie you should see
01:31:24 <kmc> i don't know if that's the same thing as a 'good movie'
01:31:33 <Lumpio-> I remember it being disturbing as hell
01:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> note that it contains wanton crimes against mathematics
01:32:16 <Lumpio-> ...name a movie that has mathematics as a theme and doesn't
01:33:27 <Bike> Donald in Mathmagic Land
01:33:28 <kmc> which crimes?
01:33:57 <Bike> it's kind of inaccurate about the history of music though
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01:40:36 -!- kmc has set topic: Happy Ed Balls Day everyone! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, there's a bit where someone has apparently read out every 216-digit number
01:41:50 <ais523> kmc: what's Ed Balls Day?
01:42:06 <kmc> http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3374/happy_ed_balls_day
01:42:46 <Lumpio-> Maybe whoever read all of them is... really old
01:42:52 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: ah yes
01:45:40 <Bike> http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr06/2013/4/13/9/enhanced-buzz-18948-1365859313-1.jpg i see, i see
01:46:13 <Sgeo> > 10 ** 216 -- yes I know it's less than this. Or less than twice this, if you count negatives
01:46:37 <Sgeo> Erm, that didn't quite do what I wanted
01:46:39 <Bike> well played, floating point
01:46:42 * Sgeo feels like an idiot
01:46:47 <Bike> Sgeo: hint it has a log of digits
01:47:13 <Sgeo> Oh, it did do what I wanted to do
01:47:38 <Bike> > "1" ++ take 256 ["0"..]
01:47:39 <Sgeo> I didn't entirely recognize that 216 and 1e216 are different numbers
01:47:40 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
01:48:09 <Bike> > "1" ++ (take 256 ["0"..])oh
01:48:28 <Bike> i'm really good at this.
01:49:04 <Bike> > "1" ++ take 256 $ repeat '0'
01:49:06 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
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01:55:25 <Sgeo> :t take 256 $ repeat '0'
01:55:53 <Bike> > "1" ++ (take 256 (repeat '0'))
01:55:55 <lambdabot> "10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
01:55:59 <Bike> parens never let me down.
01:56:04 <Bike> anyway http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/04/absurd-pitches-pull-out-the-hayek-and-polanyi-lesson.html
01:56:12 <Sgeo> > "1" ++ (take 256 $ repeat '0')
01:56:14 <lambdabot> "10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
01:58:44 <kmc> Bike: nice
02:00:17 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb the basic skeleton is done, pick a function or object and start filling it in! https://github.com/T-and-T/LD26
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02:02:12 <kmc> not sure about the "free market is best" implication but, an amusing list
02:02:47 <Bike> "Except that some of them were actually supported by the government (e.g., Google & Tesla)" "Palantir was one of the CIA’s venture fund’s recipients" hahaha
02:03:07 <kmc> also it's not like governments never try absurd things and follow through way past the point where a reasonable person would have given up
02:03:12 <kmc> they are particularly known for doing just that
02:04:01 <kmc> they're usually miserable failures but so are most startups
02:04:02 <nooodl_> ed balls day reminds me of
02:04:12 <Bike> "In-Q-Tel of Arlington, Virginia, United States is a not-for-profit venture capital firm that invests in high-tech companies for the sole purpose of keeping the Central Intelligence Agency, and other intelligence agencies, equipped with the latest in information technology in support of United States intelligence capability" uh
02:05:32 <kmc> governments will try a bunch of crazy skunk works projects in areas which particularly interest the ruling classes (mostly defense and how to take stuff from poor people)
02:05:45 <kmc> free market will build consumer tech or whatever else makes money
02:06:08 <Bike> did you know the bolsheviks were partially sponsored by the okhrana? government waste at work
02:06:55 <Bike> "we've got to divide all these anti-tsarist outfits somehow. let's pick an especially stupid one to prop up and split the rest"
02:08:23 <Bike> they also wrote the protocols of the elders of zion. they were really good at encouraging later violence i guess?
02:09:30 <Bike> "Just as the Okhrana had once sponsored trade unions to divert activist energy from political causes, so too did the secret police attempt to promote the Bolshevik party, as the Bolsheviks seemed a relatively harmless alternative to more violent revolutionary groups. Indeed, to the Okhrana, Lenin seemed to actively hinder the revolutionary movement by denouncing other revolutionary groups and refusing to cooperate with them." you can't make th
02:10:00 <kmc> uh, the jews in the jew base at the center of the moon wrote the protocols
02:10:02 <kmc> everyone knows that
02:10:16 <elliott> Bike: you can't make th, indeed
02:10:19 <elliott> it's literally impossibel to make th
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03:01:39 <kmc> who were the other revolutionary groups though
03:02:12 <Bike> i can only think of the mensheviks and Left SRs off the top of my head
03:02:24 <Bike> oh, and anarchists i suppose.
03:02:25 <kmc> were there anarchists too
03:02:53 <kmc> red army, white army, black army, green army
03:02:59 <Bike> probably some trade unionists hanging out. maybe some real wackos on the right too, like Black Hundredists but less useful to the tsar
03:03:23 <Bike> you named the actual colors they all used, right? like that wasn't a joke
03:03:37 <kmc> green army was peasants who wanted to be left alone
03:03:54 <Bike> i think the later soviet union makes a lot more sense when you put it in the context of the russian civil war because that shit was fucked
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04:14:40 <kmc> https://twitter.com/jobs/positions?jvi=o0m7Wfw9,Job "Desired Skills:... You consider Firefly one of the best TV shows ever"
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04:17:01 <Fiora> "well, actually I kind of prefer ghost in the shell" "sorry, you're just not the kind of person we need right now"
04:17:30 <Bike> we need you to write out a short Firefly fanfic on this whiteboard
04:17:48 <pikhq> How oddly specific.
04:18:00 <pikhq> That's the sort of thing that would detract me from a company...
04:18:20 <pikhq> I mean really, who gives a shit about your taste in TV shows for employment purposes?
04:18:51 <Fiora> Bike: I wonder what they would do if it was slash
04:18:52 <mnoqy> twitter, linux kernel engineer division
04:19:18 <Bike> it's not an actual requirement, it's just a thing for them to say "we want nerds like yoU"
04:19:37 <mnoqy> maybe its so you can JIVE with all the twitter linux kernel engineers who talk all about how firefly is so great and if u dont think so you'll be SO PUT OFF and you wil;l INVARIABLY PUT THE M OFF TOO
04:19:43 <Bike> that first sentence seems ungrammatical. "Twitter is seeking an experienced software engineer obsessed with evolving Linux kernel in revolutionary ways."
04:20:04 <mnoqy> Bike: i dont think thats a real sentence. nobody should say that.
04:20:21 <Jafet> Revolving Linux kernel in evolutionary ways
04:20:57 <Jafet> Are twitter employees called twats
04:24:37 <kmc> presumably ghost in the shell would be just as good, the point is that they only want people in the mainstream of 'nerd culture' and consider that on par with ability to perform the job, as a decision factor
04:24:42 <kmc> which is gross
04:24:46 <kmc> bad for diversity and just... bad
04:25:19 <kmc> only they probably don't see it that way, they see it as 'look at us, we're nerds like you'
04:25:48 <mnoqy> heh heh nerd culture
04:25:50 <Bike> yeah that's what i got out of it
04:26:31 <kmc> firefly is all right
04:26:38 <kmc> tbh I don't spend many cycles thinking about firefly, one way or the other
04:26:45 <mnoqy> id be pretty put off of a job offer that pandered to nerd culture bc uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurgh nerd culture..........i dont want all of my job-friends being awful nerds!!
04:27:01 <mnoqy> i've never seen firefly but i've heard things about it like: it's a tv show??
04:27:16 <kmc> they're space outlaws / cowboys
04:27:24 <kmc> it has snappy dialogue and interesting characters
04:27:25 <Bike> if i had a tech company i'd put a bunch of football jargon in job postings and talk about throwing pigskins around, just for variety
04:27:34 <kmc> it's not like... transcendently important television
04:27:42 <kmc> Bike: then you will get brogrammers instead
04:27:44 <kmc> can't win bro
04:27:56 <Bike> is that... is that a real thing
04:28:03 <kmc> signs point to yes
04:28:03 <Jafet> But if the job posting did not have this requirement and you don't care about joss whedon shows and you sign up for that job and it becomes a source of friction for whatever reason
04:28:10 <Jafet> isn't that worse???
04:28:39 <mnoqy> how about advertise to rockstar ninjas using a combination of dorky dated rock terms and authentic japanese
04:28:55 <Fiora> kmc: okay then how about a better example
04:28:59 <Fiora> I like shugo chara? :P
04:29:23 <kmc> Bike: you should include more obscure references, jargon about october revolution political factions or earthworm digestive processes
04:29:25 <mnoqy> single any one show out in a job posting and you've got a bad job posting
04:29:38 * Fiora shoots the cootie cannon at Bike
04:29:40 <Jafet> Can you make shugo chara sound manly in 140 characters
04:29:44 <mnoqy> probably anything to do with tv in a job posting about twitter linux kernels is Bad News
04:29:55 <kmc> also I do like your scenario Fiora regarding going in just to pick a fight about Firefly
04:29:56 <Bike> kmc: it's like nadsat but more ridiculous. i should write a novel
04:30:00 <kmc> wear a shirt that says FIREFLY SUCKS
04:30:09 <Fiora> kmc: that's not what I meant, but XD
04:30:11 <kmc> just those words in big letters, nothing else
04:30:18 <elliott> i'd apply for a kernel development job that talked about earthworms
04:30:22 <Jafet> Grave of the firefly
04:30:27 <elliott> not if i have to work with biologists [EYES BIKE]
04:30:36 * Bike throws eyes at elliott
04:30:43 <elliott> THIS IS WHY I FUCKING HATE BIOLOGISTS
04:30:54 <kmc> "Much as the humble earthworm eats dead things and shits out dirt, you will be eating kernel oops reports and shitting out LKML patch emails"
04:31:01 <elliott> :'(::::: <- pile of eyes Bike threw at me
04:31:02 <Fiora> Jafet: in all seriousness I think it's a lot more fun to make eextremely manly things sound girly
04:31:10 <elliott> :'(:::::. Bike what did you do
04:31:37 <mnoqy> what sort of eyes are we talking her
04:31:39 <Bike> right i'm submitting this as a use-case for combining multiocular-o above
04:32:00 <Bike> mnoqy: mostly shrimp tbh
04:32:12 <Fiora> shell gasoline is filled with natural oils and plant extracts, designed to revitalize and exfoliate your car, helping your morning drive feel brighter, smoother, and healthier.
04:32:19 <mnoqy> what sort of shrimp are we talking here
04:32:33 <Bike> let's say mantis shrimp (they aren't shrimp)
04:32:43 <Jafet> Combining above should be a binary operator
04:32:47 <Bike> Fiora: the joke is: i actually have no idea what exfoliation is
04:32:57 <Bike> "the removal of the oldest dead skin cells on the skin's outermost surface" i see
04:33:07 <mnoqy> the loss of leaves (or, in some cases, pieces of bark) from a plant
04:33:16 <mnoqy> the process responsible for breaking up particle aggregates
04:33:18 <Bike> wow i bet that would be hard to describe without some biological research
04:33:32 <mnoqy> i think its that one
04:33:37 <elliott> exfoliation is when something was foliate but hten it's not
04:34:28 <Bike> having a granite dome on your car would be weird.
04:34:30 <Bike> you're weird, fiora.
04:35:02 <mnoqy> im sure granite domes could be a perfectly reasonable fad
04:35:14 <mnoqy> like idk wizard hats and parachute pants
04:35:42 <elliott> wait there's a relevant ph quote here i think
04:35:58 <HackEgo> 212) <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...]
04:36:21 <mnoqy> `pastelogs reyouthismootherate
04:37:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25087
04:37:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13753
04:38:08 <Bike> <elliott> I want to `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> [...] reyouthismootherate [...] <-- very civil of you elliott
04:38:49 <elliott> looks like I am good at achieving my goals
04:39:41 <mnoqy> why doesnt anyone say "smoot" without putting an h at the end
04:39:50 <mnoqy> what a boring pastelogs
04:40:00 <mnoqy> `pastelogs smoot[^h]
04:40:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12036
04:40:37 <Fiora> oh. right. a smoot is like 170cm
04:41:09 <elliott> mnoqy: you think the fact that people don't do that is important
04:41:14 <kmc> Oliver Smoot went on to be Chairman of ANSI and President of ISO
04:41:27 <elliott> mnoqy: you think that's a point
04:41:33 <elliott> mnoqy: but I think you'll find 'smoot
04:41:53 <mnoqy> were all of those lines a setup for that
04:42:58 <Fiora> elliott you're terribible
04:43:44 <mnoqy> terribible: horror movie???
04:44:10 <kmc> hint: its the regular bible
04:44:55 <elliott> we're going to get banned by the govt
04:46:21 * Bike imagines the Bible as slasher film with OT God as the killer and... david as the final girl maybe??
04:46:36 <mnoqy> final girl? is that a slasher film thing
04:48:48 <mnoqy> i was thinking terribible would be more like.....theres a bible in a hotel room but then it eats people......or you could have a bible for a bizarre cult and it has mind-controlling properties and whoever reads it cannibalizes their families in a ritual to summon the great undoing
04:49:10 <Bike> wasn't that silent hill or something
04:49:11 <Fiora> ... oh geez I've never read "terribible" as having 'bible' in it -_-
04:49:34 <Jafet> I would read the terribible
04:50:13 <mnoqy> the eating one or the other eating one or the normal bible (does it have eating?)
04:50:23 <Bike> People eat things in the normal bible, yes
04:50:43 <elliott> mnoqy: i like the bible that eats people one
04:50:53 <elliott> it sounds appropriately 'b (c? d?) movie'
04:51:14 <Bike> "z movie"'s a term that people have used in all seriousness, fyi
04:51:49 <elliott> there's no way humans can even comprehend how gloriously bad a z movie would have to be
04:52:00 <Bike> it's used to refer to like, plan 9
04:52:02 <elliott> to justify skipping all those letters
04:52:19 <Bike> or manos, you know, mst fodder
04:52:34 <elliott> pfft surely plan 9 just counts as b movie or maybe c movie
04:52:44 <elliott> i haven't even seen it and i categorically disbelieve that it warrants the label z
04:53:05 <Fiora> what did I even start
04:53:29 <Bike> haha if you google "z movie" you get the film about greece, awesome
04:53:58 <Bike> Stock footage of a rocket launch is played in reverse to depict the landing of an alien spacecraft. What appears to be shag carpet is draped over several actors shambling about at a snail's pace, thus bringing the monstrous "creeping terror" to the screen. The movie also employs a technique that has come to be synonymous with Z-movie horror: voiceover narration that paraphrases dialogue being silently enacted onscreen
04:54:05 <Bike> i dunno elliott this seems "pretty bad"
04:54:18 <elliott> there are 26 letters in the alphabet
04:54:31 <elliott> if you think how bad B movies are in comparison to A movies and then extend that towards C movies
04:54:36 <elliott> just imagine how awful it has to get to reach all the way to Z
04:54:49 <elliott> probably no person is capable of creating anything that awful
04:55:35 <Bike> how about the star wars holiday special
04:56:02 <kmc> that sounds like Turkish Star Wars
04:56:13 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BCnyay%C4%B1_Kurtaran_Adam
04:56:46 <Bike> good film (it's not)
04:57:17 <Bike> "I'm not sure a human did film Plan 9. It doesn't seem to see things as a human."
04:57:36 <kmc> "The villain tells them he is actually from Earth and is a 1,000 year old wizard. He tried to defeat Earth, but was always repelled by a shield of concentrated human brain molecules, which looks like the Death Star from Star Wars."
04:57:41 <Bike> my favorite worst film is Alan Smithee though
04:57:56 <Bike> because it's about a guy trying to not be credited for a terrible film
04:58:30 <elliott> i found that film on wikipedia once
04:58:52 <Bike> some kind of postmodern epic
04:58:56 <elliott> like you have to realise this is during one of those 6 am times when you've given up on everything and are just clicking wikipedia links you don't even care about any more
04:58:59 <Bike> and: it's fucking terrible
04:59:19 <kmc> hollywood crawled up its own ass and found mainly shit
04:59:20 <elliott> The film's creation set off a chain of events which would lead the Directors Guild of America to officially discontinue the Alan Smithee credit in 2000. Its plot (about a director attempting to disown a film) eventually described the film's own production; director Arthur Hiller requested that his name be removed after witnessing the final cut of the film by the studio.
04:59:38 <elliott> and then there's not really any other links that make sense to click on any more because you just read that
04:59:53 <Bike> "welp, guess i reached the end of human knowledge"
04:59:57 <Jafet> Is that like the genuinely bad version of Adaptation
05:00:07 <elliott> A director by the name of Alan Smithee has been allowed to direct Trio, a big-budget action film starring Sylvester Stallone, Whoopi Goldberg, and Jackie Chan. The studio recuts the film, and when Smithee sees the results (which he describes as being "worse than Showgirls") and realizes that he cannot use a pseudonym (because the only one allowed is "Alan Smithee") he steals the film and goes on the run, threatening to burn it.
05:00:28 <Bike> ok Trio sounds pretty amazing
05:01:50 <Bike> "8.1.1 Ha-Trempist (The Hich Hiker or An American Hippie in Israel) (1972)" this article's looking pretty good
05:05:59 <elliott> @tell ais523 looks like abusefilter is blocking users now; we might want to disable it if it spams up recent changes too much
05:08:12 <elliott> @tell ais523 also, do filters 2 and 3 not have warning messages? the case of an actual person adding a link to their own userpage without there being a newline seems vaguely plausible, I don't know what it'd look like if they tried
05:16:18 <mnoqy> oh no i missed so much $$A+$$ bad movies conversation
05:17:11 <elliott> we enjoyed having it without you
05:17:16 <Bike> i... don't know what that means
05:18:04 <mnoqy> i need to see more bad movies. not counting mst3k the only great movies i remember seeing are gamebox 1.0 and hercules in new york
05:18:20 <mnoqy> i also need to see more mst3k
05:18:52 <Bike> how about rifftrax
05:19:34 <mnoqy> i could count all the mst3k i've seen on my fingers (maybe need to include toes?) if i could dang remember what they were. it's been long enough that i can probably rewatch them all and still enjoy them so i'm putting all the mst3k i remember enjoying on my to-watch list
05:20:05 <elliott> i hvaen't even watched mst3k i think i'm too lazy to
05:20:21 <elliott> sort of feel like reading about awful stuff is better than actually consuming it, even by proxy
05:20:25 <mnoqy> pod people was my first mst3k and it's good so i recommend it
05:21:06 <mnoqy> gosh i even have a mst3k tab open i just gotta finally get around to watching it
05:21:27 <mnoqy> this one's uhhh "prince of space" i don't think i've seen it before
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05:22:25 <mnoqy> guess i'll watch it now so i don't dang forget
05:25:54 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/bb840b5cc1d32d4436cede48f4bcde0e/tumblr_mlw2vsXwG81qzqvm2o4_1280.gif is this sup
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06:00:39 <zzo38> Do you know how to properly color the tree structure now?
06:46:00 <zzo38> I estimate the one million dollar wedge in Wheel of Fortune to be worth only a few dollars.
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06:54:06 <zzo38> What do *you* think????!???
06:54:18 <Bike> what do i think
06:54:55 <mnoqy> if i had to color a tree, i think i'd play it safe and go brown for the trunk and green for the leafs
06:55:58 <zzo38> I think you are correct, but it isn't what I meant.
07:08:21 <zzo38> In the tree I have described, neither brown nor green are valid.
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08:16:55 <zzo38> Now I added triad registers into Internet Quiz Engine, so each register can have up to three pieces.
08:23:51 <Vorpal> Balanced ternary is confusing.
08:24:23 <zzo38> Well, it is an optional feature, and not all of the registers have to use it.
08:24:48 <Vorpal> oh my line was no in reply to you
08:24:52 <Vorpal> just a comment in general
08:25:47 <zzo38> Well, I suppose it can be confusing. And it is good that it is not in reply to me, because I didn't mean balanced ternary anyways. Do you use balanced ternary for anything?
08:27:48 <Vorpal> zzo38, no, not really. I'm just trying to figure it out as I got nothing better to do.
08:28:12 <Vorpal> I don't know any practical application for balanced ternary in this day and age.
08:28:48 <Vorpal> Also there seems to be balanced ternary gray code. That sounds fun.
08:31:36 * FireFly is reminded of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_for_operations_with_functions
08:40:16 <Vorpal> Oh looks like it used balanced ternary indeed
08:52:22 <FreeFull> Balanced ternary computers are pretty cool
08:55:16 <fizzie> Tere is also the Setun.
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09:47:40 <Vorpal> Wtf is gvfs-monitor-dir and why is it using 1.4 GB RAM?
09:48:07 <FreeFull> I wonder if someone made a modern balanced ternary VM
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09:58:47 <fizzie> PulseAudio refused to start a while ago, due to some sort of "inotify: Too many files" error.
09:59:34 <fizzie> Also I managed to get some sort of a inotify max_user_watches error out of Dropbox too; had to bump the limit up.
09:59:41 <fizzie> Don't know if there's some sort of a leak of them.
10:00:41 <FreeFull> Your fault for using pulseaudio
10:01:17 <fizzie> I doubt it's PulseAudio leaking anything, given that (a) it was not running.
10:01:53 <FreeFull> OSS, Alsa and Jack are clearly superior
10:03:21 <fizzie> In general it works well for me, and I can juggle streams from headphones to dinky computer speakers to the S/PDIF output, without having to figure out, for each application separately, how to change the output device; something ALSA couldn't do. (I guess with .asoundrc + pcm.default, but wouldn't that mean a restart of the application in question?)
10:03:34 <fizzie> (Jack would probably work well, but I have ugly experiences about it from years past.)
10:04:13 <fizzie> Sorry, pcm.!default. (That always reads like "not default" for me.)
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10:11:07 <fizzie> Also, I dreamed that Ubuntu 13.04 came with GCC 5.x, and they promised GCC 6.x for 13.10.
10:11:14 <fizzie> I suppose... that's not true, then.
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10:12:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, I never figured out how to send stereo streams with pulse audio to the rear output on my SB Live
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10:13:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, why would I want that? better DAC than on the front jack
10:13:37 <Vorpal> Easy to switch vlc around, as well, it is available in the menus
10:14:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, strange dreams
10:14:23 <shachaf> «In the Japanese language, the word sake refers to Japanese liquor, while the beverage called sake in English is termed nihonshu (日本酒, "Japanese liquor").»
10:16:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's kind of bad when it comes to multiple ALSA devices on a single card, that's true.
10:16:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah I have a ton on my SB Live
10:17:32 <fizzie> I have the headphones connected to a USB dongle (much less noisy than the onboard sound; don't have a dedicated sound card in this box), and that's a separate "card", so even PA's limited configuration is enough.
10:17:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/ASCN
10:17:53 <fizzie> That's a lot of devices.
10:18:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, I use my earbuds in the Intel HDA port on the front, and my studio headset in the rear channel of the SB Live.
10:18:41 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aRSf so dinky.
10:19:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, you want -L for listing PCMs
10:19:29 <fizzie> Bah, that just has the silly alsa surround-this surround-that names.
10:19:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, for arecord: http://sprunge.us/TXfU
10:19:55 <Vorpal> I also have a gameport on the SB Live
10:20:15 <fizzie> Heh, seems that I got the card numbers in different order than they usually go; it's normally so that onboard sound is 0 and card 1 is the bt878; while card 2, when it exists, is the USB dongle.
10:20:30 <fizzie> This time I happened to have it connected at boot-time, that probably explains why they're the wrong way around.
10:21:23 <fizzie> "USB Device 0xccd:0x77", doesn't even know a name for it.
10:21:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, also my mobo doesn't like my sound card, I sometimes need to reload the emu10k1 kernel module, after the kernel decides to disable the interrupt line it is using.
10:21:41 <Vorpal> due to stray interrupts
10:21:46 <Vorpal> never happened on my old mobo
10:22:01 <fizzie> (lsusb knows it's a "TerraTec Electronic GmbH Aureon Dual USB", wonder why ALSA can't get that information.)
10:22:11 <Vorpal> Because lsusb is user space?
10:22:20 <Vorpal> And ALSA is kernel space
10:23:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, update-usbids updates the user space USB ID database, you can probably find a call to that in your crontab or /etc/cron.some-duration/
10:23:14 <fizzie> I guess; but they could've built in a mechanism in the USB audio class that'd let the device provide a name string.
10:23:18 <Vorpal> similar to update-pciids for lspci
10:23:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, should have been in the USB system overall then, not just the audio class
10:24:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think "card 2: Generic [HD-Audio Generic], device 3: HDMI 0 [HDMI 0]" is the thing on my GPU
10:26:27 <fizzie> The onboard graphics chipset I have (Radeon something-or-other) has an audio device, but I have it disabled these days; the graphics card doesn't have any HDMI holes.
10:27:11 <Vorpal> My graphics card has two HDMI, two DVI and one display port or something silly like that
10:27:28 <Vorpal> (one of the DVI is DVI-I the other a DVI-D)
10:27:46 <fizzie> Can you push audio over DP? I'd guesstimate so.
10:28:25 <fizzie> "-- up to 8 channels of 24 bit 192 kHz uncompressed PCM --"; well, that's quite a lot.
10:29:10 <FreeFull> What if you put the sampling rate down? Do you get more channels or not?
10:29:40 <fizzie> (But I wouldn't know.)
10:31:08 <fizzie> I think it's comparable to HDMI; while you can only fit two channels of uncompressed PCM over S/PDIF; surround sound needs Dolby Digital or DTS or other such things.
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10:39:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't S/PDIF optical or something?
10:39:59 <fizzie> There's both optical and copper (coax) cable variants of it.
10:40:08 <fizzie> (The protocol is same in both.)
10:40:13 <Vorpal> I wonder which one my SB Live has
10:40:18 <Vorpal> I know it has a S/PDIF port
10:40:36 <fizzie> The coax cable variant tends to be an orange RCA connector.
10:40:52 <Vorpal> Hm, I do not remember the port color
10:41:32 <fizzie> The optical thing is "natively" a TOSLINK connector (a sort of a rectangular thing), but quite often these days it's integrated in a regular 3.5mm stereo jack.
10:42:13 <Vorpal> Definitely a separate jack in my case
10:43:53 <Vorpal> yeah the connector is not circular.
10:44:05 <fizzie> Then it's probably the regular TOSLINK one.
10:44:18 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TOSLINK.jpg looks like that at the male end.
10:44:37 <fizzie> There's a coax S/PDIF jack on my motherboard back panel, which I think is not terribly common. (I certainly don't mind, though.)
10:45:43 <Vorpal> why are all the connectors on the back
10:46:10 <fizzie> The laptop's got one of those combo "3.5mm line out / optical SPDIF" dealies, and it's always-on, so there's a permanent red light coming out of one of the four 3.5mm jacks on the side, whenever the sound isn't muted.
10:46:41 <fizzie> It's not all that bright, but certainly noticeable in the dark.
10:46:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, can't you just mute that channel in alsamixer?
10:47:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: I mostly run Windows in the laptop, and haven't bothered to navigate enough dialogs to disable it.
10:47:42 <fizzie> I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
10:48:43 <fizzie> (The USB dongle also has an optical digital output like that.)
10:50:48 <fizzie> I wonder if anyone makes a splitter so that you can plug in both an optical TOSLINK cable and a regular 3.5mm thing at the same time to one of those jacks.
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10:59:40 <fizzie> "sd 6:0:0:3: [sdg] Write Protect is on" huh.
11:00:14 <Vorpal> Every other piece of music is a performance of 4'33" where someone just happened to be playing sometime else at the time.
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11:01:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Just three; but it's from a memory card reader that generates four devices (sde, sdf, sdg, sdh) for the different kinds of ports.
11:01:11 <fizzie> (sdd is an optical drive.)
11:01:23 <Vorpal> my optical drive is sr0
11:01:35 <Vorpal> So I don't get how you get a sdd for an optical drive
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11:01:50 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder what sdd is, then.
11:02:03 <fizzie> Oh, it was sdd, sde, sdf and sdg for the card reader; mislooked.
11:02:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway if it is a SD card, check the slider on the side for read only
11:02:52 <fizzie> "sd 6:0:0:3: [sdg] Write Protect is off" yes, the lock switch seems to be a bit flaky.
11:03:09 <fizzie> It was unlocked; I toggled it to locked and back, and now it's off.
11:04:44 <fizzie> AIUI, the switch doesn't actually *prevent* writes, it just sets that one bit and assumes that the client side honors it.
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11:06:25 <fizzie> Or maybe "client" is the wrong word in this context, perhaps "host" is more appropriate.
11:06:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have an issue with the SD reader on my laptop, and that is that it is slightly too tight of a fit, meaning that inserting a SD card usually results in the thing sliding
11:07:58 <ineiros> fizzie: Regarding my browsing habits (which were apparently discussed ~a day ago), Mozilla has since improved the session restore functionality. The escaping doesn't seem to happen that way any more. Also, the fact that all the tabs are not immediately loaded when restoring the session has significantly reduced the anxiety of pressing the "Restore session" button.
11:08:35 <fizzie> I'd like it if Chrome stole the lazy-loading thing from them, too.
11:14:53 <Vorpal> Hm I should really reformat the external SD card on my phone from FAT-32 to something saner. I just ran fsck on that thing and it found a couple of stuff
11:15:12 <Vorpal> also the mtab on my phone is crazy
11:19:12 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/IQKN
11:22:33 <Vorpal> /dev/block/mmcblk0p12 /.secondrom ext4 rw,relatime,barrier=0,data=ordered,noauto_da_alloc 0 0
11:22:33 <Vorpal> tmpfs /.secondrom tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noatime,size=131072k,mode=771,uid=1000,gid=1000 0 0
11:22:33 <Vorpal> /dev/block/mmcblk0p12 /.secondrom ext4 rw,nosuid,nodev,noatime,nodiratime,barrier=0,data=ordered,noauto_da_alloc 0 0
11:22:36 <Vorpal> that is quite confusing
11:22:41 <Vorpal> three mounts on top of each other?
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12:28:22 <fizzie> From what I recall, the N900 mtab is kind of simple, esp. in comparison.
12:29:27 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jfVV and it's mostly the /opt stuff due to silly partitioning.
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12:44:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, /home/user/ nice
12:45:11 <Vorpal> Also for some reason the caps lock led is out of sync with what is actually happening atm
12:45:23 <Vorpal> Hm, replugging the keyboard helped
12:46:03 <shachaf> But I don't know what will work.
12:46:30 <shachaf> That message was intended for #haskell. Unauthorized readers will be prosecuted.
12:46:50 <Vorpal> shachaf, what if I'm in both channels?
12:47:29 <shachaf> How can you tell it's the same message without reading it twice?
12:48:26 <Vorpal> shachaf, you could extrapolate from the comment "<shachaf> That message was intended for #haskell. Unauthorized readers will be prosecuted." that you would post it twice, once in each channel
12:50:38 <Jafet> Reading this message is forbidden.
12:52:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's pretty much a single-user device, and the single user is called "user".
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12:56:59 <Vorpal> modern Android has that multi-user stuff. Not completely sure how it works.
13:07:32 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/UNXe that's probably not good.
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13:09:09 <Taneb> How do Agda et al. compare with Haskell in terms of type system ridiculawesomeness?
13:09:10 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:10:14 <olsner> they're probably all turing complete
13:10:44 <shachaf> Agda et al. are very carefully not Turing-complete.
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13:11:22 <shachaf> (Even the language itself. Let alone the type system, which is more or less the same thing as the language itself.)
13:11:31 <shachaf> A Turing-complete type system would defeat a lot of purposes.
13:12:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed. That is from your phone?
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13:15:40 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell Taneb well haskell's type system is a subset of agda's, so...
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13:23:18 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:23:24 <Taneb> My internet's kinda crappy here
13:24:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Desktop; the device it speaks of is the keyboard; I plugged the Nexus 7 into the same hub where it is, using my no-name microusb cable, and it has some connectivity problems; I guess the intermittent connections went and confused things. (Replugging fixed it.)
13:24:28 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: "haskell's type system is a subset of agda's"?
13:24:41 <Jafet> C is a subset of C++
13:24:47 <Jafet> everyone knows this
13:25:08 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover said 21s ago: no it isn't
13:25:09 <Jafet> @google fuzzy set theory
13:25:10 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_set
13:25:10 <lambdabot> Title: Fuzzy set - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
13:25:14 <shachaf> Hmm, I didn't even have to say anything.
13:25:21 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell ThatOtherPerson i know, it was for comedic effect
13:25:23 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: "it isn't"?
13:25:40 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover said 19s ago: i know, it was for comedic effect
13:25:58 <Taneb> @tell Phantom_Hoover don't worry, I found it funny :)
13:26:07 <lambdabot> Taneb said 9s ago: don't worry, I found it funny :)
13:28:37 <lambdabot> Title: HELLO! Online: celeb & royal news, magazine, babies, weddings, style
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13:50:27 <lambdabot> What be a priate's favourite cheese?
13:51:15 <lambdabot> Arr! Me ship be the biggest brig in the port!
13:52:10 <FireFly> go home lambdabot, you're drunk
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13:57:39 <Vorpal> It got a lot of hype around it's release but it seems to me that quickly died down.
13:57:44 <Vorpal> Haven't heard about it in ages.
13:59:10 <FireFly> I had to use it for a course this semester
14:02:45 <FireFly> Well, it was all right. The course was about parallellisation/synchronisation mechanisms, and for that purpose I guess it's a good fit
14:03:39 <FireFly> We never used e.g. interfaces/structs, so my experience is rather limited..
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14:12:46 <fizzie> I am under the impression that Go does get at least some amount of commercial use.
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17:34:03 <zzo38> Can PADsynth be implemented efficiently in hardware?
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17:48:28 <oerjan> <Sgeo> This is going to go to my head, I think <-- you'll end up bying a south american country? (i recall opus the penguin did that)
17:49:52 <pikhq> oerjan: Sounds familiar.
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18:12:02 <Taneb> Is there a shortcut on emacs to re-open all files if they've changed on the disk?
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18:14:20 <Bike> hm, there's kill-some-buffers and save-some-buffers but not read-some-buffers
18:14:48 <kmc> 420-kill-buffers-everyday
18:15:04 <kmc> is Sgeo going mad with wealth?
18:15:09 <Bike> great, now "buffers" doesn't look like a word
18:15:09 <kmc> Sgeo: you should donate some of that money
18:15:16 <Bike> yes, he's sponsoring mosquito laser initiatives
18:15:23 <kmc> they're called buffers but i've never seen them buff
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18:15:41 <kmc> does that stuff actually work
18:15:44 <kmc> in re: mosquito lasers
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18:16:12 <HackEgo> Tritonio: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:16:15 <oerjan> Bike: are these initiatives to kill mosquitoes with lasers, or initiatives to create killer laser mosquitoes?
18:16:37 <Taneb> oerjan: the latter would seem important if it is necessary at all
18:17:12 <Taneb> Nah, it's some guy in Indiana typing really quickly
18:17:29 <Bike> kmc: yes, but the main problem is that there aren't many laser-related resources in places with mosquito problems
18:17:35 <Tritonio> no oerjan I just hadn't joined the channel for like a year.
18:17:37 <Taneb> Tritonio: are you new?
18:17:53 <Taneb> Do you recall the Hexham co-incidence?
18:18:32 <FireFly> `run ls bin/ | tr [:upper:] [:lower:] | grep elcom
18:18:37 <HackEgo> relcome \ rwelcome \ welcome \ welcome \ welcome
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18:18:57 <Bike> cohexham sounds scary
18:19:05 <Taneb> Bike: I believe it's Finland
18:19:14 <Bike> like i said, scary
18:19:21 <Taneb> Evidence for this:
18:19:27 <Taneb> Hexham got attacked by vikings
18:19:33 <Taneb> Finland attacked vikings
18:20:56 <Tritonio> so... any golf competition lately?
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18:26:56 <pikhq> Hmm. I should find a power supply for my LS-120 drive.
18:27:12 <pikhq> Be silly, pointless, but amusing actually using a parallel floppy drive.
18:34:20 <kmc> Bike: hm, plenty of rich places have non-life-threatening mosquito problems... maybe you could like sell them in SkyMall on a give-one, get-one basis
18:34:50 <kmc> a crazy laser turret gadget for keeping mosquitos away from your barbequeue, that also lets you show off how charitable you are
18:34:53 <kmc> that could sell
18:36:53 <pikhq> Sillier still considering I don't have LS-120 media.
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18:39:26 <kmc> you can use it to read regular floppies right?
18:39:29 <kmc> that makes it even sillier
18:43:06 <pikhq> To add to the silliness, I own an internal floppy drive.
18:43:11 <pikhq> One that's even hooked up.
18:43:25 <kmc> my middle school had a bunch of USB LS-120 drives because it was the cool thing to buy with a first-gen iMac
18:43:39 <pikhq> Mine had a bunch of Zip drives.
18:43:42 <Koen_> ThatOtherPerson: Taneb: how's the ludum dare going?
18:44:03 <pikhq> I just used 80mm CD-RWs.
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18:45:10 <pikhq> This LS-120 drive was my grandmother's...
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19:35:41 <Sgeo> Literally Unbelievable jumped the shark
19:35:57 <Sgeo> This person was clearly just continuing the oke, I think http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/49088978411/obviously-a-propaganda
19:36:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11282
19:37:05 <HackEgo> 1035) <Fiora> shachaf: make friends. help people. find ways to help people be happy. hug people. have fun. make the world a little bit better.
19:37:11 <Taneb> An inspiration to us all
19:37:30 <Bike> nothing is obvious, sgeo
19:38:03 <Taneb> Nothing is obvious, everything is a burrito
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19:39:04 <Sgeo> I still want to try the Dilburrito
19:40:23 <Sgeo> There was a little promotional flash game
19:40:41 <Sgeo> You'd have to stand under falling food to eat it. Try to eat healthy foods, avoid unhealthy ones
19:40:52 <Sgeo> Of course, the Dilberito was the most healthy food
19:41:55 <Fiora> I guess being an inspiration is okay
19:42:32 <mnoqy> is dilberito a portmanteaue of dilbert and burrito...............
19:42:52 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/DilBeriTO.jpg
19:43:34 <mnoqy> oh it's a real thing
19:43:47 <mnoqy> Scott Adams Foods, Inc????????
19:44:00 <Sgeo> Was a real thing
19:44:07 <Sgeo> It's been discontinued :(
19:44:25 <Bike> well shit, how could i not want to eat that
19:44:28 <mnoqy> a healthy food product that also had mass appeal, a concept he called "the blue jeans of food."
19:44:33 <mnoqy> mass appeal by way of dilbert?
19:45:03 <Bike> are blue jeans nutritionally sound
19:45:42 <Sgeo> A lot of the food I eat has genes
19:45:45 <pikhq> That is such a strange concept.
19:45:49 <Sgeo> (That would probably work better spoken)
19:47:21 <Bike> i think DNA is pretty well fucked by the time you're food has been cooked
19:47:33 <mnoqy> what if you eat it before it's cooked??? WHAT THEN
19:47:59 <Bike> i guess sushi is alright
19:48:06 <zzo38> I have floppy drive in my computer but the eject button is broken, so when I use floppy disks I will use the external drive.
19:48:11 <mnoqy> well theres plants but sure
19:48:12 <Bike> alt. literally a manifestation of god into the corrupt world, if you're fiora
19:48:28 <mnoqy> i think bike is saying you like sushi
19:48:49 <mnoqy> or maybe it's a nasty god and you hate sushi
19:49:14 <mnoqy> lazy do-nothing god "apathetic about sushi"
19:49:59 <Bike> wham. i've got this fiora thing down.
19:50:45 <Taneb> Isn't sushi just rice and vinegar or something and raw fish has a different name
19:51:03 <Fiora> raw fish alone is sashimi, but yeah, not all sushi has raw fish, or even fish
19:51:27 <zzo38> Sushi may include raw fish too, but always rice
19:52:06 <Taneb> I know this because I went to a sushi restaurant chain once in Homestuck cosplay
19:52:14 <kmc> i guess 'maki' and 'nigiri' are subtypes of sushi then?
19:52:23 * kmc was never very clear on it
19:52:34 <kmc> also I'm told that it's almost impossible to get authentic wasabi in the USA :/
19:52:39 <kmc> i've probably never tasted authentic wasabi
19:53:05 <kmc> not all fish in sushi is raw either, at least in america
19:53:12 <kmc> sometimes it's deliciously fried
19:53:16 <Bike> it's gotta have that "american touch" (deep fried wasabi)
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19:53:37 <kmc> that scottish touch
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19:55:23 <mnoqy> how do you deep fry a wasaby
19:56:58 <Taneb> First you need to catch the wasaby
19:58:02 <kmc> the guardian did a liveblog for ed balls day http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/28/ed-balls-ed-balls-ed-balls-ed-balls-live
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20:04:14 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleic_acid_thermodynamics DNA in cooked food is complicated
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20:11:48 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130428-bergen.ogg let's continue the tradition of inscrutable audio links.
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21:01:42 <ion> General MIDI ghettoblaster. http://a1.trd.cm/thaisecondhand/201207/05m/10195828_1.jpg
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21:03:34 <fizzie> There's a seafront cafe thing in Helsinki, they have a piano in the corridor, the piano has a floppy disk drive on the side.
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21:04:22 <fizzie> (Café Ursula, for the metropolitan-area Finns.)
21:05:42 <Phantom__Hoover> you know what the worst part about this connection bullshit is
21:11:41 <kmc> yeah i've seen real mechanical pianos with midi hw + floppy drive
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21:12:00 <kmc> i guess they have a solenoid on every key, you can see them move as they play themselves
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22:15:21 <elliott> today i learned: brendan eich donated $1k to the prop 8 campaign
22:15:28 <elliott> javascript suddenly even worse
22:16:26 <Bike> did he give a reason
22:16:41 <elliott> i don't think he made a public statement about it
22:16:46 <elliott> or really I just don't know
22:16:53 <elliott> wikipedia mentions it and gives some citations
22:16:58 <elliott> Eich donated $1,000 in 2008 to the campaign supporting California Proposition 8, which was recorded in a public database with Mozilla's name attached as his employer,[5] and many people commented about this donation on Twitter in March 2012.[6]
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22:17:18 <elliott> http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/04/business/la-fi-tn-brendan-eich-prop-8-contribution-20120404
22:17:45 <elliott> Eich did not respond to an Los Angeles Times request for comment, but he did respond to a tweet by David Heinemeier Hansson, who created the open source Web framework Ruby on Rails, and has more than 55,000 followers on Twitter.
22:17:49 <elliott> In language we can't repeat here, Heinemeier Hansson said that seeing Eich's name and Mozilla's name on the list of people who gave to Prop 8 was "nasty."
22:17:58 <elliott> David "Language We Can't Repeat Here" Heinemeier Hansson
22:18:38 <Bike> "Apparently @brendaneich, father of #JavaScript, isn't as versatile as his language" i'm reading this as a sex position thing
22:20:18 <Bike> "Let the man have his opinion" a comments section /in/ the article, cool
22:22:07 <elliott> gonna donate $1M to the literally kill javascript programmers fund
22:22:09 <elliott> imo let me have my opinion
22:22:34 <Bike> are you the fund?
22:22:38 <kmc> the human fund
22:22:46 <Bike> have you transcended your human status to join the ranks of financial instruments
22:22:53 <Bike> get jiggy with some futures iykwim
22:26:24 <zzo38> Can you make any prestige class for Dungeons&Dragons game?
22:27:27 <zzo38> Do you like to have any Pokemon game in Z-machine?
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22:29:36 <fizzie> The "Financial Instrument" prestige class, for bards.
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22:32:11 <zzo38> Is that the one where bards earn money?
22:32:55 <Bike> No, it's where you use abstract mechanisms of capital as musical instruments.
22:33:07 <Bike> Like hooking up nasdaq to a synth and such.
22:33:10 <zzo38> O, that's how you do it.
22:33:53 <zzo38> Do you have a program to convert a NASDAQ to a Csound score file?
22:36:03 <zzo38> I also made some prestige class, and improvements to two prestige classes, and have now written most of "Aberration Saver" prestige class on a paper.
22:36:15 <Bike> I do not have such a program.
22:36:25 <zzo38> It is a kind of paper that might be used for bookkeeping, I suppose, but I wrote on the other side.
22:41:53 <kmc> there's a cool sculpture in the lobby of the London Stock Exchange with a bunch of balls that float up and down with the market http://vimeo.com/10163398
22:42:27 <Phantom__Hoover> can someone please, for the love of god, explain to me why when i connect to irc servers the connection is fine for a minute and then times out?
22:42:57 <Bike> god doesn't love me sorry
22:45:02 <Bike> « In Trinidad it was sometimes called diablotin (French for "little devil"), presumably referring to its loud cries, which have been likened to those of tortured men. The common name "Oilbird" comes from the fact that in the past chicks were captured and boiled down in order to make oil.»
22:47:28 <Sgeo> I should play Barbu again
22:47:38 <Sgeo> There's, like, a really really small online community
22:47:52 <Sgeo> Who all play via a Windows program, and coordinate on Facebook
22:49:06 <Sgeo> Made out of 7 card games.
22:49:19 <Bike> sounds complicated
22:49:59 <Bike> oh, they're just trick-taking games, that's not too bad
22:50:34 <Sgeo> There's one that isn't trick-taking
22:50:58 <Sgeo> Scoring is complicated though. Doubles and re-doubles, required to double dealer at least twice
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23:14:04 <zzo38> I found it in Wikipedia now.
23:14:14 <zzo38> Do you invent any card games?
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23:23:12 <Sgeo> Why WOULD localhost.microsoft.com point to 127.0.0.1 anyway?
23:23:16 <Sgeo> What use is there in that?
23:23:24 <Sgeo> Besides a security vulnerability
23:24:19 <Bike> so that you can access your own computer if the loopback device is failing, of course
23:24:51 <kmc> that wouldn't work
23:25:46 <Sgeo> I am not pleased with having the company where I work mentioned right before 'substantial security risk'
23:25:54 <kmc> Sgeo: hehe
23:25:58 <kmc> not microsoft though?
23:26:03 <Sgeo> Not Microsoft.
23:26:17 <Sgeo> It's talking about ISPs that pretend to be non-existent domains
23:26:19 <kmc> it could be useful if for whatever reason you didn't have a local name for 'localhost' but you did have '.microsoft.com' configured as a suffix
23:26:25 <kmc> that's a shitty thing to o
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23:35:35 <Sgeo> "As a result, merely hosting a valid, user-supplied JPEG image could become a grave security risk."
23:35:42 <kmc> how is that again?
23:36:26 <Sgeo> (About Flash's pre-2008 processing of policy files, that could interpret such a file as a cross-domain-policy
23:36:28 <Bike> the little known server-side executable jpeg protocol
23:36:44 <Sgeo> Ignoring MIME type and leading garbage
23:41:18 <kmc> Postel's Law is the worst thing ever for security
23:41:43 <shachaf> it's p. bad for a lot of non-security things too
23:41:44 <Bike> «RFC 1122 (1989) expanded on Postel's principle by recommending that programmers[2] "assume that the network is filled with malevolent entities that will send in packets designed to have the worst possible effect"»
23:42:14 <kmc> "expanded" meaning "directly contermanded"
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23:42:34 <Bike> good expansion
23:46:00 <Sgeo> So in Chrome, can't use cookies: with file:
23:46:14 <Sgeo> That must suck for people using old books to learn basic stuff
23:48:56 <kmc> is cookies: a thing
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00:03:37 <Sgeo> I don't think so
00:03:45 <Sgeo> Well, Cookies: is
00:03:54 <Sgeo> And Set-Cookies:
00:05:00 <Sgeo> wtf http://i.imgur.com/crossdomain.xml
00:05:14 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/crossdomain.xml
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00:08:01 <kmc> don't get pickles in your cookies
00:08:07 <kmc> websec / cooking advice
00:09:18 <mnoqy> im sure someone enjoys pickle cookies
00:09:34 <Bike> someone you don't want doing your websec
00:16:40 <Sgeo> Tables do not work well in epub
00:16:47 <Sgeo> Or well, the ones in this book don't :(
00:22:30 <kmc> we used to make chicken cookies
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00:27:56 <kmc> we used to make chicken cookies in this country, now we just have our hand in the next guy's pocket
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01:03:52 <kmc> python has some neat higher order functional stuff, even if they avoid the label
01:03:55 <kmc> like http://docs.python.org/2/library/contextlib.html#contextlib.contextmanager
01:04:10 <kmc> turns a coroutine that yields once into an exception safe resource scoping thing
01:05:17 <Sgeo> Hrm. What's that page that demonstrated a Javascriptless chat room using a gif?
01:07:07 <kmc> though i've realized I'm using it wrong, sigh
01:07:20 <kmc> shachaf: https://github.com/videlalvaro/gifsockets ?
01:09:28 <Bike> Sgeo: [shachaf's up-hand character]
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01:10:44 <Sgeo> As in, it would leave a connection to a gif open and the 'gif' would get a new frame when someone entered a line
01:11:12 <Bike> «to the anonymous person that submitted the fairly competent, seemingly unironic, furry digimon(?) inflation porn version of “Squirt Force”, as an obfuscated url, to our ask box, i have a couple questions» jerkcityhd is going well
01:13:52 <Bike> Sgeo: pretty sure that's kmc's link
01:15:16 <Sgeo> kmc said shachaf though
01:15:41 <Sgeo> Oh, that's what you meant by [shachaf's up-hand character]
01:15:52 <kmc> yeah I meant "Sgeo:" whooops
01:15:54 <Sgeo> I thought you were saying embedding images into chat
01:16:12 <kmc> the keys are practically right next to each other
01:16:42 <Bike> I don't know if that's the same.
01:16:46 <Bike> shachaf is mysterious.
01:16:53 <Sgeo> I could have sworn that there was an old implementation
01:17:11 <Sgeo> Which would imply not clojure
01:17:12 <Bike> There's a white one but not a black one, even though there are black ones for left and right...
01:17:28 * Bike adds "racist" to Unicode complaints, realizes that was probably already there from Han unification or something
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01:32:36 <Bike> i wonder if you could encode those scripts' characters with series of radicals or something (spoiler i don't know any chinese scripted languages)
01:35:00 <pikhq> Bike: Though not done, this would be entirely practical.
01:36:08 <Bike> hm, both the major non-unicode representations of chinese (big5 and guobiao) seem to just use characters the same way
01:36:52 <Bike> i'm having that "if this was a workable idea someone would have tried it" thought
01:38:10 <Sgeo> Is there any more reason to cater to NoScript people than no-cookie people?
01:38:11 <pikhq> It's definitely a workable idea. It's just that it's computationally intensive to compose characters that way.
01:38:35 <kmc> it might go against the Unicode idea of what a "single character" is
01:38:40 <kmc> which I'm still not super clear on
01:38:40 <pikhq> Compared with just using a giant lookup table of codepoint to font.
01:39:03 <Bike> hm, that's true, composition would be nasty
01:39:15 <pikhq> kmc: A Unicode "single character" is more-or-less an abstract notion of the glyph.
01:39:22 <pikhq> Which can be composed with one or more codepoints.
01:39:23 <Bike> composition aka "something you have to do to actually display the characters"
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01:39:47 <Bike> "something you probably want to be simpleish for a usable system"
01:39:56 <pikhq> However, in terms of it being *able* to express Chinese characters, it's certainly workable.
01:40:07 <lifthrasiir> Bike: that's why Hangul has both precomposed characters and composable characters
01:40:16 <lifthrasiir> (the former called syllables, the latter called jamos)
01:40:24 <Bike> lifthrasiir: isn't hangul like, way more reasonable than han in a lot of ways
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01:40:44 <Bike> correspondance between glyphs and sounds for instance
01:41:09 <lifthrasiir> Bike: well, Han ideographs also have Ideographic Description Sequence (IDS) for the composable characters, except that they are not normalizable at all
01:41:13 <pikhq> The relevant bit here is that the composition rules for hangul are simpler and more regular.
01:41:40 <Bike> gah, thinking about languages makes me think about phylogeny
01:41:45 <pikhq> Though I think there's actually *more* jamo than radicals?
01:41:47 <Bike> and phylogeny is just a stupid clusterfuck how appropriate
01:42:27 <lifthrasiir> when I'm saying "practically" it refers how Hangul was implemented in Unicode
01:42:29 <pikhq> But there's only a few fixed ways that jamo combine into a single syllable block, making it a lot easier to do on a computer.
01:43:09 <kmc> wait, are the precompose hangul blocks actually in unicode?
01:43:09 <lifthrasiir> right, but when the character set was defined for the first time (around 1980) it was not practical at all
01:43:21 <pikhq> kmc: Both must be in Unicode for round-trip compatibility.
01:43:36 <kmc> round-trip compatibility is unfortunate
01:43:36 <lifthrasiir> (that's a fine chunk of BMP space actually)
01:43:50 <Bike> Wait, why do you need both exactly?
01:43:56 <Bike> Round trip through what?
01:44:00 <kmc> other encodings
01:44:04 <pikhq> Bike: Legacy Korean charsets had both.
01:44:23 <kmc> a rather onerous design goal of Unicode is that you can convert any encoding to it and back without losing information
01:44:26 <pikhq> Unicode is designed so that legacy charset -> Unicode -> same legacy charset doesn't change anything.
01:44:33 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: one catch here is that legacy Korean charsets do *not* have composable characters at all
01:44:39 <Bike> You couldn't roundtrip other encoding's precomposed char -> sequence of jamo -> recomposed char?
01:44:42 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Oh. Sigh.
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01:45:29 <lifthrasiir> they are designed for the two-byte-sequence-fill-two-column terminals
01:46:06 <lifthrasiir> they even do not cover every modern Hangul syllable either
01:46:06 <pikhq> Right, yes, that particular oddity of legacy CJK encodings.
01:46:45 <lifthrasiir> and MS decided to add remaining 8822 of them in the way incompatible to EUC for just that reason
01:46:58 <lifthrasiir> (more standard-ish way involves 3-byte sequences)
01:47:32 <lifthrasiir> so it is more like a historic and political issue
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01:47:50 <pikhq> Character encoding is freaking complicated.
01:48:00 <kmc> praise God who sent His prophet Ken Thompson to bring us the good word of UTF-8
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01:48:44 <lifthrasiir> once upon a time there was Plan 9 (from whatever)
01:48:49 <Bike> clearly i should organize a committee of ROC and PRC reps to work out how chinese will work for once and for all. the resulting violent collapse of civilization will leave all character encoding problems solved by default
01:48:52 -!- kmc has set topic: Happy UTF-8 Appreciation Day everyone! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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01:49:21 <Bike> > "Happy UTF-8 Appreciation Day everyone!"
01:49:22 <lambdabot> "Happy UTF-8 Appreciation Day everyone!"
01:49:29 <Bike> i was expecting homograph attacks.
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01:49:41 <kmc> well one thing to appreciate is that it's a superset of ASCII :)
01:49:47 <lifthrasiir> Bike: there are Chinese characters for every discovered atomic elements
01:49:57 <Sgeo> "This has resulted in a substantial number of web application vulnerabilities, but to this day, Internet Explorer developers seem to have no regrets and have not changed the default behavior of their code."
01:50:18 <Sgeo> (About content-sniffing HTML when being told it's a text/plain)
01:50:56 <kmc> Hong Kong and Macau also use a different character encoding from mainland PRC
01:50:59 <pikhq> Aside from a handful really old elements, IIRC the element characters have some rather nice regular properties.
01:51:11 <Bike> do you mean trad? or something worse
01:51:15 <shachaf> Speaking of Ken Thompson, "A few minutes ago I spoke with Ken Thompson. He confirms that he and his colleagues never wanted argc to be 0; and he agrees with me that the authors of C89 should not have allowed that case to be legal. He is pretty sure that Plan 9, in particular, always ensured that argc>=1, by supplying a default environment if necessary."
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01:51:28 <kmc> well I guess it is related to the trad / simplified split
01:51:38 <kmc> but i meant Big5
01:51:47 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: radicals represent the type of those elements at STP?
01:51:48 <pikhq> i.e. all the metals have 金 (metal), the gasses have 気 (air/gas/spirit/this character has a lot of semantics), the liquids 水 (water/liquid).
01:52:06 <Bike> oh, chinese does the breath-life thing too, eh
01:52:56 <lifthrasiir> fortunately for Chineses their pronounciations follow those of non-radical parts
01:53:19 <pikhq> I'd be tempted to still call those "radicals", but yeah.
01:53:19 <lifthrasiir> (it is actually common for many Chinese characters)
01:53:48 <pikhq> Though that's for lack of a better term for the more generic "Chinese character component".
01:54:04 <lifthrasiir> but they still have to memorize the meanings and pronounciations of at least thousands of basic characters
01:54:09 <pikhq> As opposed to "Chinese character component that is used for dictionary lookup, that generally has some amount of semantic meaning."
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01:58:03 <shachaf> mnoqy: got any monqy wisdom and/or mnoqy wisdom for me today
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02:00:14 <Sgeo> It's always fun when a book on web security begins a sentence with "To their horror and disbelief"
02:00:36 <Bike> the implication that they do this often enough for you to notice is good
02:01:26 <Sgeo> No, sorry. Although things that imply sheer pain do occur often enough
02:01:30 <kmc> yeah I like the writing style of that book
02:01:39 <kmc> it's engaging and not dry
02:01:49 <kmc> the author finds it all amusing in a "we're all fucked" kind of way
02:02:00 <kmc> I think there are some intrinsic properties shared by good exploits and good jokes
02:02:18 <Bike> that would explain roughly everything about hacker culture
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02:04:33 <shachaf> Probably I should read that.
02:04:47 <shachaf> Did you see http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/postxss/ ?
02:04:47 <kmc> i should finish reading it
02:05:02 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_migration_(birds) how could anyone not like biology, i ask you
02:05:03 <Sgeo> o.O coredump.cx is real?
02:05:41 <shachaf> Is the book like that page?
02:06:33 <kmc> oh, well, it's the same author
02:06:35 <Bike> .cx is the best tld
02:06:41 <kmc> i think it's pretty similar
02:06:45 <shachaf> That page is full of cleverness. A lot of these sorts of things are.
02:06:51 <Bike> what the heck, does anyone use <textarea> now
02:07:08 <kmc> Bike: i know someone who got into a LONG wikipedia edit war about whether goatse.cx should be listed on the .cx page as one of the notable domains
02:07:34 <Bike> kmc: awesome (it totally is)
02:07:41 <pikhq> That's pretty neat, but c'mon, .su is for a non-existent state!
02:08:12 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_codes_of_Serbiais amusingly complicated
02:08:12 <pikhq> North Korea exists, it just has no right to. :P
02:08:38 <kmc> pikhq: I want to see alternate history fiction where the USSR survives into the Internet Age
02:08:53 <Bike> i'm working on some in my head >_>
02:08:56 <pikhq> kmc: Arguably it did. :P
02:09:00 <kmc> well, but just barely
02:09:11 <Bike> also a guy i know elsewhere sometimes bans .kp and the one i forget for east germany
02:09:12 <pikhq> .su was created a mere 14 months before the collapse.
02:09:33 <kmc> i mean like the age of people generally giving a shit about the internet
02:09:43 <kmc> man, remember the days when you could say "The Internet is just a fad" seriously?
02:09:55 <Bike> too young. sorry!
02:10:09 <pikhq> Bike: East Germany never got one assigned.
02:10:10 <shachaf> Bike: It's actually kmc who's too old.
02:10:38 <pikhq> That was never assigned.
02:10:53 <Bike> that doesn't matter to silly bans!
02:10:55 <kmc> (or the dark interpretation: the open Internet *is* just a fad, it will eventually be replaced with walled gardens run by Google and Facebook and Apple)
02:10:58 <pikhq> DD is a valid ISO 3166-1 code, but that TLD never existed. :)
02:11:16 <Bike> "For a time, praise.hm offered a URL shortening service directed at Christians." cctlds are the fucking best
02:11:55 <kmc> they stuck South Sudan with .ss? awkward
02:12:16 <Bike> i doubt anyone around south sudan has occasion to give a damn about the schutzschaffel, really
02:12:26 <Bike> staffel. fuck. fucking german
02:12:50 <kmc> huh SF is an obsolete code for Finland
02:12:54 <kmc> "Suomi Finland"
02:12:58 <pikhq> del.icio.us is one of the better uses of ccTLDs though...
02:13:05 <pikhq> In that the site was actually American.
02:13:21 <kmc> http://responsiveurl.co.uk
02:13:22 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Please tell me they use .co.ck for commercial services.
02:13:23 <lifthrasiir> and it is totally possible to have .co.ck domains
02:13:50 <lifthrasiir> it is pity that they don't support two-level domains yet
02:13:53 <kmc> 'In the British sitcom Nathan Barley, the principal character registers his website, "trashbat", in the Cook Islands simply so that it has the amusing ".co.ck" suffix, which he always pronounces "dot cock."'
02:14:24 <pikhq> "Domains considered profane will not be considered on any level, and the application will be dissolved with the applicant being notified, and future requests for the same domain name will be ignored."
02:14:39 <pikhq> So, is it possible to actually register a dot cock?
02:15:02 <kmc> and the application will be dissolved with the applicant being notified, and the earth will be salted so that nothing can grow for 40 generations
02:15:05 <Sgeo> I misread that as meaning that the application wouldn't be notified, which would suck
02:15:28 <Bike> dragon.co.ck has been rejected
02:15:44 <Sgeo> "andn the applicant will be dissolved with the application being notified"
02:16:11 <kmc> also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu-YbU7IIns
02:16:15 <pikhq> But what if I have a company called Dragon in the Cook Islands that sells dildos?
02:16:27 <pikhq> "Get your Dragon cocks at Dragon dot cock!"
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02:16:50 <kmc> more famous for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss8LDBNcsWc
02:16:53 <Sgeo> We can only assume that anything sexual is completely illegal in the Cook Islands
02:17:30 <kmc> http://loves.co.ck/ sfw
02:17:36 <Bike> kmc: errrr what
02:17:44 <Sgeo> kmc, don't feel like opening page, is that the one where he's trying to say top cop?
02:17:50 <Bike> @ chickenfucking
02:18:05 <kmc> there's one where he misreads a url ".com" as ".cock" and then briefly corrects to "dong" before settling on "com"
02:18:37 <kmc> Bike: watch the face of the woman sitting next to him
02:18:48 <Bike> a camcorder recording of a tivo'd program. i love the future
02:19:47 <pikhq> This is a lot like how the MPAA recommends that copies of DVDs for educational use be made using camcorder.
02:20:39 <mnoqy> reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zB4ItYcX4I
02:20:46 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains#Internationalized_country_code_top-level_domains a fun list too
02:21:03 <Bike> pikhq: do they advocate getting actors to reenact plays rather than recording them
02:21:13 <pikhq> Bike: I don't think so.
02:21:17 <pikhq> The point here is DRM.
02:21:47 <Bike> bad at jokes again, woe
02:22:09 <kmc> Tamil script is pretty damn cool looking
02:22:14 <shachaf> reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOtrEalLyaViDEo
02:22:27 <mnoqy> shachaf: that's not really a video, is it
02:23:02 <Bike> kmc: ooh, swirly
02:23:35 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/History_of_Tamil_script.jpg
02:23:40 <kmc> ADD MORE SWIRLS
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02:46:04 <kmc> > 6 / pi**2
02:46:58 <Bike> some zeta sum, right?
02:48:26 <Bike> oh, one over zeta(two)
02:50:07 <kmc> it's the probability that two randomly chosen numbers are coprime
02:51:22 <Bike> 'randomly chosen number' is such a great concept
02:51:36 <pikhq> kmc: I assume "natural" or some such?
02:51:46 <kmc> yeah i think natural
02:51:53 <kmc> didn't know so i didn't specify :)
02:52:02 <Bike> "no, it includes reals, duh"
02:52:36 <kmc> it's cool that you can implement RSA in a page of code, even if it's terrible RSA nobody should actually use
02:52:50 <Bike> hm, that's not erdos-kac
02:52:56 <Bike> got my half-remembered number theory all confused, id o
02:52:59 <pikhq> Yeah, it's really quite nice that RSA is actually that understandable.
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02:53:30 <kmc> you need pretty deep math to actually prove Euler's totient theorem, right?
02:54:13 <Bike> " Euler's theorem can be proven using concepts from the theory of groups:" guess so
02:55:02 <kmc> well depends which concepts :)
02:55:22 <Bike> basel problem isn't too bad though
02:55:26 <kmc> oh actually I think this is an amount of group theory that I used to know
02:55:28 <shachaf> if it doesn't use invertibility then it's so easy
02:55:43 <shachaf> what does 'randomly chosen natural number' mean
03:06:03 <kmc> it seems really lucky that public key crypto is even possible at all
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03:11:11 <Bike_> kmc: have you seen "A personal view of average-case complexity"? Impagliazzo's "five worlds" paper
03:11:21 <kmc> no, but that sounds really cool
03:11:27 <Bike_> it's really cool how that took me five minutes to look up
03:12:18 <kmc> do you have a link or should i google it
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03:13:40 <Bike> http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/users/russell/average.ps
03:13:47 <Bike> now if you'll excuse me i'll be destroying my ISP
03:13:57 <Bike> 20:11 < Bike_> it's really cool how that took me five minutes to look up
03:13:57 <Bike> 20:12 < Bike_> basically the guy lays out a few different ways the world would be like for various resolutions to P=NP
03:14:00 <Bike> 20:12 < Bike_> including whether trapdoor functions are real and stuff
03:14:44 <pikhq> Yeah, salt the earth;
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03:15:23 <Bike> it's weird how qwest is still in my hostname, considering qwest no longer exists, but eh
03:15:36 <pikhq> Right, yes, it's Century Link.
03:15:47 <pikhq> Salt the fucking earth or they'll come back with a new name.
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03:18:17 * kmc traceroutes the IP he had in high school, which he still has memorized
03:18:29 <kmc> 'hey i used to live here!'
03:18:42 <kmc> it seems to have moved to seattle
03:19:06 <shachaf> Hmm, I remember the DNS IPs but not my own address.
03:19:32 <shachaf> Well, it was before high school.
03:20:38 <zzo38> Do you know secret sharing cryptography? I know some things about this.
03:21:11 <Bike> do you mean private key cryptography aka "old-ass" cryptography
03:21:51 <kmc> maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_sharing
03:22:18 <Bike> hey look it's shamir again. dude gets around
03:22:22 <kmc> "Each secret share is a plane, and the secret is the point at which three shares intersect." wikipedia photo caption or 3am street person ramblings
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03:22:49 <Bike> aren't we all a plane, deep inside
03:23:47 <zzo38> Yes, like that, or a line, if there are two needed to make it, etc. I can think of things involving how to encode the data and how to figure out the numbers and so on, to improve the security.
03:34:54 <kmc> Secure multi-party computation is really cool and something I should learn about
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03:40:01 <Bike> "The proof here is messy, but stupid."
03:42:53 <Sgeo> Pretty sure my old IP is somewhere on some wiki
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03:45:27 <Sgeo> I remember when I wanted to use NetMeeting to connect to my computer from elsewhere, and thinking my IP address was 192.168.1.1
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03:57:05 <Gregor> <Bike> aren't we all a plane, deep inside // But aren't we all snakes on a plane?
04:15:10 <kmc> Planesnake would be a good name for a band
04:17:14 <kmc> my #esoteric band names: Planesnake, Napier's Bones, KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT, Duff's Device, Intermezzo War Crime,
04:17:25 <kmc> Gütenbørg, BADNESS 10000
04:17:52 <mnoqy> lots of things would be good band names but i haven't thought to write any of them down....
04:18:00 <mnoqy> RIP / lost forever
04:18:12 <Bike> i know at least one person who collects band names in an irc-queryable list
04:18:22 <Bike> also does kangxi radical fight have to do with the emperor or...
04:18:49 <kmc> Too Close for Missiles, Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite, Berne Convention, Gopher Wood
04:19:03 <mnoqy> Bike: that's a good idea
04:19:26 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you have any band names for us?
04:19:30 <Bike> oh, kangxi radicals, compiled by the kangxi emperor
04:19:43 <kmc> mnoqy: you can use some of mine
04:19:54 <kmc> i have a surplus
04:20:53 <shachaf> band name surplus and band deficit((surminus??))
04:21:13 <mnoqy> that's one way to put it
04:21:15 <Bike> so should there be like `guitarsolo to spit out a band name
04:22:02 <shachaf> imo guitars are p. bad instruments
04:22:11 <Bike> why do you say that?
04:22:12 <shachaf> not as bad as drums but still p. bad
04:22:26 <shachaf> admittedly electric guitars are worse than non-electric guitars
04:22:49 <mnoqy> guitars can be used for good or bad
04:23:06 <shachaf> okay guitar users are the evil ones
04:23:09 <Bike> if you don't like spanish guitar i'm afraid we can't be whatever we are
04:23:21 <kmc> the electric guitar is one of the defining technologies of the 20th c.
04:23:49 <mnoqy> just how many defining technologies did the 20th c. have
04:24:37 <mnoqy> oh no!!who do i believe
04:24:55 <Bike> electric guitar, combine harvester, those cheapish well things
04:24:57 <Bike> that's about it
04:25:24 <shachaf> mnoqy: i was thinking of doing that thing that i did again, should i
04:25:48 <mnoqy> was it well-recieved
04:26:02 <Bike> maybe kalishnikovs. is that an invention
04:26:21 <mnoqy> more of a discovery imo
04:26:45 <Bike> right yeah your o is right
04:27:00 <Bike> wait shit what about those things you can put on dogs and then they translate dog language for you.
04:27:43 <Bike> that was 90s right? pretty defining of the 90s and the 20th century in general
04:27:54 <shachaf> the 90s didn't really exist
04:28:04 <Bike> Animal testing Baiting Breed-specific legislation Communication Dog attack Dog park Dog sports Dog walking Dog daycare Dog grooming Famous dogs Intelligence Therapy Training Fear of dogs Dog license Dog food Dogs in religion
04:28:35 <kmc> atomic bomb
04:29:04 <Bike> those things that were only used twice?
04:31:23 <kmc> and had a dominant effect on international relations in the remaining 50 years, yes
04:37:53 <Bike> i'm kind of automatically skeptical of technology being a super important factor in history though
04:40:08 <Jafet> Nuclear weapons have been deployed against: Japan, fishermen, Pacific islanders, Mongolian nomads
04:41:11 <Bike> who tested nukes in mongolia?
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04:49:04 <Bike> i don't think mongolia ever had nuclear capability
04:49:47 <pikhq> That's because you are educated stupid.
04:51:26 <kmc> the CIA put some nuclear powered listening devices on a mountain in the Himalayas to spy on nuclear tests in China
04:52:25 <kmc> they fell down and ended up in the Ganges river
04:52:27 <Bike> it's kind of weird that mongolia didn't have more of a role in the cold war now that i think about it, i mean they were practically soviet and had had a whole lot of border conflicts with china
04:54:59 <pikhq> It's weird realizing that stuff like the Apple II's NTSC artifact color didn't work out of the US.
04:55:39 <pikhq> Particularly bad for the Apple II. That thing was actually designed entirely around that.
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05:25:16 <zzo38> I think electric guitar and non-electric guitar can both be OK to play the specific music meant for those kind of guitar.
05:25:46 <pikhq> Electric guitar is awesome. Classical guitar is also awesome.
05:25:52 <pikhq> They're just very different instruments.
05:27:06 * Bike attempts to imagine what Anji would sound like on electric guitar, fails
05:27:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes. That is what I mean.
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06:03:58 <kmc> heh, this paper on one way accumulators suggests (in passing) to use secure multiparty computation to bootstrap a new cryptosystem
06:04:25 <kmc> like if you need to pick some constants and don't want to just ask the NSA what the best ones are
06:04:36 <kmc> though there are advantages to asking the NSA as well as disadvantages
06:06:07 <Bike> clipper was great, right!?
06:13:43 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_up_my_sleeve_number
06:15:35 <Bike> the way that's written sort of implies that you can just grab CK random numbers, nice
06:16:06 <Bike> i hope to one day cite A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates in a paper
06:17:03 <shachaf> _A Billion Random Digits with 100,000,000 Normal Deviates_, by Bike
06:17:28 <Bike> handwritten and published on 100% genuine papyrus
06:17:42 <kmc> in this case they're looking for numbers with a particular property
06:18:23 <Fiora> maybe they can list the property, and say, pick the first number in the digits of pi with that property?
06:19:34 <shachaf> But then you need to justify the index.
06:19:48 <Fiora> well, like, you justify it with the property
06:19:59 <shachaf> Oh, maybe I read that backwards.
06:20:09 <Fiora> "here is the property we want, here's a function that iterates through until it finds a number that fits it, we didn't pick anything weird beyond this property" I don't know if that works though
06:21:06 <Bike> Fiora: i think you may as well use a CSPRNG at that point?
06:22:58 <Bike> random number generator
06:23:00 <Fiora> I guess, but like, then you'd have to justify some numbers like te initialization values right?
06:23:15 <Fiora> like, you're having to convince people "I'm not doing anything weird here"
06:23:30 <Fiora> so if you're giving them some 64-bit seed or something you might have intentionally picked a seed that gave you some hidden property?
06:23:49 <Bike> I guess I'm thinking that they'd be able to come up with their own values easily if they wanted to.
06:23:51 <Fiora> um maybe this doesn't make any sense but I thought the whole thing was basically not having too much entropy in the constants
06:25:30 <Bike> maybe this is why we need secure multiparty computation
06:25:49 <Bike> that way we can hide the agreement on sanity in the math of the protocol, instead of actually talking about it, in which case nobody will ever agree
06:27:11 <kmc> now reading the zerocoin paper
06:27:52 <Fiora> zero-knowledge proofs still freak me out kind of
06:29:35 <Fiora> just the idea that you can prove something really complicated and significant without admitting any of your premises
06:30:38 <shachaf> But it's not actually "proving", generally.
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06:40:55 <kmc> zerocoin uses commitments, zero-knowledge proofs, *and* one-way accumulators
06:41:44 <Fiora> one-way accumulators?
06:43:51 * Bike googles, gets a bunch of pdfs. must be a common concept!!
06:44:15 <Bike> "A Decentralized Alternative to Digital Signatures" sounds pretty snazzy, though.
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06:45:27 <Bike> This paper describes a simple candidate one-way hash function which satisfies a quasi-commutative property that allows it to be used as an accumulator. This property allows protocols to be developed in which the need for a trusted central authority can be eliminated. Spaceefficient distributed protocols are given for document time stamping and for membership testing, and many other applications are possible.
06:45:47 <Bike> what's it accumulate? signatures of transmission middlemen?
06:47:25 <Bike> oh man, the original rsa paper
06:47:27 <Bike> «This has obvious applications in "electronic mail" and "electronic funds transfer" systems.»
06:50:52 <kmc> it accumulates whatever you want
06:51:07 <Bike> oh that's a good thing to accumulate
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07:00:30 <kmc> oh i was going to link this in the earlier discussin of hardware random number generators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n8LNxGbZbs
07:02:07 <Fiora> oh so basically it's a thing you can add sutff to, but can't remove things from?
07:05:31 <kmc> it lets you compute z from a bunch of y_i such that you can later demonstrate that your y was one of the ones that went into z
07:06:15 <coppro> anyone else seen the new doctor who?
07:06:34 <Fiora> kmc: but such that you don't have to say which y it is?
07:06:50 <kmc> no, you do say
07:07:12 <kmc> i think the main thing is that an adversary can't prove your y is in there if you've kept it secret
07:07:43 <kmc> also it takes up a constant amount of space no matter how many y are in there, unlike the simple 'concatenate all y and call that z' solution
07:08:10 <kmc> Fiora: zerocoin builds a zero-knowledge proof of membership though
07:08:21 <kmc> but that's not part of the idea of one-way accumulators themselves
07:08:26 <kmc> i think...
07:10:04 <kmc> so it's sort of like the value z is a public key that has 'signed' all the y, except there's no private key that can sign more things (and be stolen or coerced into doing so)
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09:19:33 <fizzie> ThatOtherPerson: I hear it's relatively cheap to hire humans to do them for you.
09:20:38 <shachaf> fizzie: Yes, that's a relatively cheap move.
09:20:41 <ThatOtherPerson> fizzie: I probably should do that; I must not be human enough to be able to read them.
09:24:12 <fizzie> fungot: What'd you say about earning us some money by breaking a few CAPTCHAs?
09:24:12 <fungot> fizzie: je vais dir.... fnord
09:25:08 <olsner> does that actually mean "I want to say fnord"?
09:30:05 <olsner> fungot: what's that mean?
09:30:06 <fungot> olsner: work-safe but horrifying?" quiz for synapsid. this
09:30:47 <fizzie> fungot: I think you're pulling someone's leg here.
09:30:47 <fungot> fizzie: process 3 killed. it's a relative, not a shadowed variable. will do
09:38:35 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: he was infamous for inflating time estimates, then delivering way ahead of the times
09:39:40 <fizzie> fungot: That's still no reason to KILL someone.
09:39:41 <fungot> fizzie: fnord was ega/ vga graphics and b800-bfff is text. and it provides a means to do unhygienic operations. that's just under the advanced line.
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09:43:40 <olsner> the hygienic/unhygienic/advanced spectrum of macro hygiene?
09:44:23 <olsner> vram hygiene might be a separate concept though
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09:49:28 <fizzie> olsner: I think it's related to how you can make macros that don't cause any visual noise on the monitor when expanded.
09:50:42 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb hmm, do you still think the grid cells should be changing size? It might make things tricky... I'll be working on other things for now
09:51:58 <fizzie> @ask Taneb also, do you think reversing the polarity of the tachyon matrix could streamline the efficiencies a bit?
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11:05:00 <Sgeo> `olist NOT a new comic, but the website is back up
11:05:02 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
11:07:15 <shachaf> Why would you `olist when there's no new comic?
11:08:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nolist: not found
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12:31:09 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:32:10 <ais523> @tell elliott filters 2 and 3 don't have specific warnings, but also don't have any consequences but preventing the attempt to edit; I don't know what it looks like but it would be safe to find out
12:34:02 <ais523> @tell elliott: haha, I /just/ triggered it by mistake: "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your edit was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: userpage contains no newlines and adds a link"
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13:16:39 <elliott> ais523: nice telling "elliott:"
13:16:40 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
13:17:01 <ais523> I wonder if lambdabot knew what I meant anyway
13:17:21 <shachaf> Did ais523 secretly resend the same message without the :?
13:17:46 <shachaf> That seems more likely than someone fixing lambdabot.
13:17:58 <ais523> perhaps it was never broken, so didn't need to be fixed
13:18:01 <lambdabot> shachaf: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:18:23 <shachaf> Does it work with commas too?
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13:20:48 <lambdabot> Where d' all t' pirates come from?
13:21:03 <elliott> shachaf: now /nick shachaf,
13:21:23 <ais523> are commas even legal in nicks?
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14:43:30 <elliott> ais523: btw I sent you a message on esolang
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14:52:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Barney_humor
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15:25:07 <HackEgo> MindlessDrone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:35:44 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jAUF why isn't our channel hip and popular enough to get this sort of stuff?
15:38:30 <fizzie> Well, you wouldn't want people to assume anything untrue.
15:41:10 <elliott> the #haskell spambots are a bit boringer
15:48:41 <elliott> my platform for op: i wouldn't op ThatOtherPerson
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16:32:33 <Taneb> elliott: I had a weird dream
16:32:34 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:33:10 <Taneb> I think I was reading a programming tutorial
16:33:14 <Taneb> There was an analogy
16:33:32 <Taneb> It involved a French newspaper, the Chinese Communist Party, and a birdcage
16:34:05 <boily> I smell the inception of a new monad tutorial here.
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16:38:56 <Taneb> elliott: I don't think so
16:39:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: nice word
16:39:50 <elliott> would be a good band name™
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16:40:18 <Taneb> The chinese graphics problem looks worryingly fixed
16:40:19 <Taneb> More info coming soon
16:40:19 <Taneb> *graphics card problem
16:40:26 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: hi
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16:40:50 <Taneb> Chinese graphics card problem is NOT FIXED :(
16:41:55 <Phantom_Hoover> is the chinese graphics card problem when you try to work out the version of someone's graphics card by the remainders of its version number
16:42:04 <tswett> elliott: what's this about pressing s?
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17:36:11 <NihilistDandy> Does anyone know how Wolfram's numbering scheme for Turing machines works?
17:36:34 <NihilistDandy> I'm not sure how it relates to the specification of the machine other than "this is just the number for this one"
17:37:21 <Bike_> what, like the state/color thing, or...?
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17:39:08 <NihilistDandy> So, for instance, Wolfram's (2,3) "UTM" is given here http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/technicaldetails.html
17:40:04 <NihilistDandy> Where (2,3) is (state, color) and 596440 is the particular machine out of the 2985984 possible
17:41:03 <Bike> well, i guess it encodes the transition function
17:41:57 <Bike> the docs for mathematica's TuringMachine seem a bit vague about it though
17:43:03 <NihilistDandy> Yeah, that's what I thought. I gathered the same about it encoding the transition function, I just have no idea if there's a way to find them myself.
17:46:31 <Bike> the actual TuringMachine function can just take a transition graph too, so
17:48:49 <NihilistDandy> I guess that's true. Maybe there's a function to work it out from the graph. I'll have to do more reading. I have to imagine that this stuff is published *somewhere*
17:49:20 <Bike> is it important?
17:50:03 <NihilistDandy> I'm playing around with a universal Turing machine implementation in Haskell and I wanted to get around constructing the transition functions by hand
17:50:18 <NihilistDandy> It seemed like convenient notation. Not particularly important, just a thing to do
17:50:54 <Bike> i think you'd probably be better off just specifying the transition rules with some data structure
17:52:30 <NihilistDandy> Unfortunate, because I already have it working so nicely with the numbers. Oh, well, guess I'll just have to do things a little differently.
17:53:27 <NihilistDandy> Oh, maybe it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Description_number
17:54:00 <Bike> you'd just be decoding it into the data structure anyway, probably
17:54:37 <NihilistDandy> I'll be back later. Class is starting. Thanks for bouncing ideas around :)
17:54:41 <Bike> as the article says the fact that you can encode machines like that is usually more important than actually doing so
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18:16:14 <oerjan> taneb has this nasty habit of being away when you want to tell him something.
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18:23:41 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: YOU CAN TRY AGAIN NOW
18:23:59 <Taneb> UTF-8 Appreciation Day?
18:24:28 <ThatOtherPerson> <oerjan> taneb has this nasty habit of being away when you want to tell him something.
18:24:43 <Taneb> I have a crap connection here
18:25:02 <Taneb> My computer can connect to wifi pretty well, but my laptop's... poorly maintained
18:25:10 <Taneb> And my computer has the whole Chinese Graphics Card proplem
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18:33:31 <zzo38> UTF-8 has some good ideas, such as being compliant with principle of extended ASCII, and that the sorting is still ordered by code points, however it has disadvantages such as different lengths for different characters, and all the stupid stuff that Unicode has.
18:34:11 <zzo38> However, it could be used with any character set which is extending ASCII and up to 36-bit code point numbers.
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18:36:06 <zzo38> Also, not all programs that use UTF-8 even follow the principle of extended ASCII.
18:37:59 <zzo38> Some programs can use any extended ASCII encodings and it won't care, such as TeX (which by default uses single-byte encoding, although they are not included in the standard fonts, but you can write macros to support UTF-8 and other extended ASCII encodings).
18:38:25 <oerjan> <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_migration_(birds) how could anyone not like biology, i ask you <-- well clearly biology is killing birds, here
18:43:10 <zzo38> As another example, my program VGMCK is mostly ASCII, although comments can use any extended ASCII coding whatever you want, and GD3 tags are in UTF-8. (GD3 tags are actually UTF-16; the program will do the conversion.)
18:44:19 <zzo38> Are there programs that will allow trailing spaces only if encoded using UTF-8 overlong encodings?
18:44:26 <zzo38> (VGMCK is one of them.)
18:46:09 <zzo38> Do you know of any others? Did you write any such programs?
18:50:28 <Koen_> Taneb: ThatOtherPerson: so how's that deadline going?
18:51:03 <ThatOtherPerson> I have confidence that we'll have something finished by then
18:53:08 <zzo38> Because this program only reads UTF-8 for the purpose of converting into UTF-16, CESU-8 is automatically also supported (although it will also correctly convert astral characters encoded in proper UTF-8).
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19:11:28 <Koen_> ThatOtherPerson: ohhhh I thought you were doing the compo
19:11:36 <Koen_> it ended last night I believe
19:12:15 <oerjan> <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jAUF why isn't our channel hip and popular enough to get this sort of stuff? <-- i vaguely think we've had those?
19:13:14 <Koen_> ohhh that's the difference
19:17:07 <kmc> been learning about zero knowledge proofs
19:17:29 <elliott> kmc: that's the kind of proof you make right
19:17:51 <kmc> here's a demo of zkp for 3-colorings of a graph http://web.mit.edu/~ezyang/Public/graph/svg.html
19:18:32 <oerjan> <NihilistDandy> Where (2,3) is (state, color) and 596440 is the particular machine out of the 2985984 possible
19:19:46 <kmc> we agree on a graph. i want to prove to you that i know a 3-coloring of this graph. i publish my colorings for each edge, encrypted separately. you pick an edge and i decrypt it and demonstrate that the colors were different
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19:20:07 <elliott> oh zero-knowledge proofs aren't actually 100% certain?
19:20:24 <elliott> i assumed they were and now they are at least 5x less cool
19:20:25 <oerjan> @tell NihilistDandy Knowing how Wolfram numbered his CA's, I expect 596440 should be interpreted as a length 2*3 base 2*3*2 number
19:20:26 <kmc> yeah, we iterate this game some number of times until you are convinced to your satisfaction
19:20:49 <kmc> and i can permute the colors each time, so there's no way for you to assemble a full coloring from my answers
19:21:10 <kmc> (also it's not really 'encrypt' you want but a digital committment scheme, however i think encryption is close enough to demonstrate why the algo works)
19:21:21 <elliott> should be called zero-knowledge evidence obvs
19:21:36 <Gracenotes> elliott: given that they about probability distributions of challenge->response transactions, it does necessitate a sampling from that distribution to prove things about them.
19:21:59 <elliott> Gracenotes: yes it makes sense of course
19:22:12 <kmc> elliott: apparently they use 'zero-knowledge argument' to mean a ZKP which can be faked by an unboundedly powerful cheating prover but not by a polynomial time one
19:22:18 <elliott> I am just wholly disappointed because I knew nothing about them but my assumptions made them sound impossible and cool!
19:22:28 <kmc> elliott: sorry 2 disappoint
19:23:22 <Gracenotes> and there is no encryption algorithm with a fixed-length key that's unbreakable, quite tragic.
19:23:48 <elliott> someone should get on that.
19:26:56 <tromp> very stuck on robozzle 4005 http://www.robozzle.com/puzzle.aspx?id=4005 ...
19:27:49 <zzo38> Are there such quantum algorithms though?
19:32:49 <Fiora> isn't quantum encryption basically about a secure way to agree on a one-time pad?
19:33:04 <Gracenotes> (as well, not as though they are usable by anyone who's more than a kelvin above absolute zero)
19:33:04 <Fiora> kind of a bit like diffie hellman I think, except immune to a mitm?
19:33:39 <elliott> just realised what a badass name hellman is
19:34:08 <zzo38> Fiora: I guess so.
19:34:24 <Gracenotes> there's also Hellmann, which is mayonnaise.
19:34:40 <kmc> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_key_distribution protests that it is only the most well known of the quantum cryptographic primitives
19:35:28 <Fiora> oooh, so there's others
19:35:34 <kmc> also there are practical quantum crypto systems in the real world
19:35:39 <kmc> 'Quantum encryption technology provided by the Swiss company Id Quantique was used in the Swiss canton (state) of Geneva to transmit ballot results to the capitol in the national election occurring on October 21, 2007'
19:35:48 <kmc> i don't know if they're above 1 K or not ;)
19:36:37 <Gracenotes> the best thing to do for distributed secure elections is mixnets
19:40:35 <kmc> apparently most MRI magnets are at 4.2 K (boiling point of helium)
19:40:50 <zzo38> Another thing that might be possible to use with quantum encryption might be teleportation?
19:41:35 <kmc> quantum crypto will be broken through implementation bugs and operational fuckups
19:41:38 <kmc> just like classical crypto
19:42:01 <kmc> i was pleased to see the wikipedia page already lists a number of these
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19:46:26 <kmc> philosophical consequences of ZKP are slightly weird
19:47:06 <kmc> your belief that i have a 3-coloring is justified and true, but you can't convey it to a third party, so is it knowledge or not
19:47:42 <Taneb> Isn't ZKP that one that's equivalent to the axiom of choice
19:47:49 <Fiora> what was the definition of knowledge...
19:48:08 <Fiora> "I belive X to be true." "If X were not true, I would not believe X to be true." "X is true."
19:48:12 <elliott> kmc: you can convey it by proxying right
19:48:20 <Fiora> I think ZKP satisfies that definition?
19:48:23 <kmc> even if you show the third party a full transcript of our conversation, they could suspect that we colluded to pick random values that aren't really random
19:48:28 <Fiora> at least that was the one we learned in philosophy class
19:48:40 <kmc> your justification in your belief is rooted in your belief that your random choices were truly random
19:48:41 <elliott> kmc: proof that it isn't knowledge: if a zero knowledge proof gave knowledge, then contradiction; QED
19:48:42 <Fiora> you believe it to be true, it is in fact true because it's been proven to you, and if it were not true, it could not have been proven to you
19:48:49 <Fiora> so even though you can't pass the knowledge on, you still know it?
19:49:12 <Fiora> so I think at least by that definition it's still knowledge (?)
19:49:35 <kmc> i think it fits the philosophy 101 definitions of knowledge (which is all i know) but it lacks some property people expect of something called 'knowledge'
19:49:43 <kmc> properties*
19:49:47 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Nozick#Epistemology this was the one we learned I think
19:51:04 <Taneb> I disagree with the second statement of Fiora's definition of ZKP
19:52:01 <Gracenotes> proving that something is a probabilistic proof is the easy part. you also have to prove it's zero-knowledge.
19:52:22 <kmc> i think Fiora was giving a definition of knowledge not a definition of ZKP
19:54:01 <zzo38> http://adl.sourceforge.net/ seems to have many similarities with Z-machine.
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19:55:27 <Fiora> I was trying to mentally match up the ZKP thing with the nozick knowledge definition
19:55:30 <Fiora> to try to follow kmc's logic
19:55:37 <Gracenotes> zzo38: there's a port of Zork in that which I've read through
19:56:16 <zzo38> Maybe it is even possible to compile into Z-machine format.
19:56:34 <Gracenotes> For a LISP it has a hell of a lot of syntax, which is especially annoying when you have something so dense.
19:56:47 <Gracenotes> then again, I shouldn't be talking, whatwith Haskell's combinator parties
19:57:26 <zzo38> Yes, it does have a lot of syntax that is not like LISP.
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20:02:37 <Vorpal> I need a couple of new 120 mm case fans. Mine are not sounding so good any more. Anyone know a good quiet brand? Good quality but most of all quiet.
20:02:54 <Vorpal> Are there different mountings? Power connectors?
20:03:38 <olsner> usually each fan has its own mounting and power connector
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20:05:47 <Vorpal> olsner, what about good quiet fans?
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20:06:13 <olsner> I think they work like other fans, just better and quieter
20:06:27 <Vorpal> right, but any recommendations?
20:06:35 <Vorpal> elliott, you usually know this stuff, right?
20:10:26 <elliott> iirc uhh nexus and noctua are well-liked, if I remember the names
20:10:50 <Vorpal> elliott, Thanks a lot :)
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20:17:59 <Taneb> Well, my computer's doing the other problem again
20:18:53 <Vorpal> Taneb, what other problem?
20:19:22 <Taneb> Crashes just after Ubuntu's splashy thing
20:19:27 <Vorpal> yeah that sounds like a bit of a bummer
20:19:43 <Vorpal> Taneb, what if you disable splash and just display the console?
20:19:57 <Taneb> Can't be bothered to play with it right now
20:20:10 <Vorpal> Taneb, what are you using atm then if not your computer?
20:20:38 <Taneb> (how would I use my computer if it doesn't start up)
20:22:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I've had worse luck with Windows than I've had with Ubuntu
20:22:36 <Taneb> In terms of my luck with OS's it goes (roughly)
20:23:01 <Taneb> Solaris, Gentoo, Debian, Arch, Windows, Ubuntu, Mac OSX
20:23:23 <Taneb> Oh, and Haiku between Windows and Ubuntu
20:23:32 <Taneb> You're reading it backwards
20:23:55 <Bike> maybe you should just use an abacus
20:23:57 <Taneb> I've had the best luck with OSX because someone else set it up and I didn't do anything with it
20:24:03 <Taneb> Bike: couldn't get wifi
20:24:08 <Taneb> Same problem as Haiku
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20:30:48 <Vorpal> elliott, it is such a pain trying to find the product from Swedish resellers. :/
20:31:07 <Vorpal> most of the fans I can only find different variants of
20:31:21 <Taneb> How can I force Ubuntu to not skip the grub menu
20:32:17 <ais523> Taneb: you can edit the grub config
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20:33:41 <Taneb> It SOMETIMES skips it
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20:45:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, set a longer timeout?
20:47:27 <fizzie> If it's Ubuntu, /etc/default/grub has the settings it puts in grub.cfg regarding the menu.
20:47:44 <fizzie> Grub itself has that "hidden timeout" thing and many settings.
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20:57:16 <kmc> Bike: http://cosmarxpolitan.tumblr.com/
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21:10:42 * ThatOtherPerson vows to hunt down whoever is responsible for Taneb's poor connection and tell them how disappointed he is in them
21:11:24 <Koen_> he only gets a bad connection two days a year
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22:16:39 <Taneb> elliott: I am increasingly worried that we are the same person
22:17:14 <elliott> Taneb: 7 is the sacred number of hexham
22:17:33 <Fiora> wouldn't... wouldn't it be 6?
22:17:33 <elliott> Bike: hexham talk. you wouldn't understand.
22:17:35 <Taneb> You'd think 6 would be the sacred number of Hexham
22:17:41 <Taneb> What with the hex and the ham
22:17:48 <elliott> yes that is a common misconception.
22:17:48 <kmc> 6 little piggies went to market
22:18:00 <elliott> those who truly understand the nature of hexham will find their minds clear of such nonsense
22:19:31 <Bike> imo fuck hexham
22:20:03 <kmc> more like sexham (sex with a ham)
22:20:16 <Taneb> Bike: you should move to Hexham
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22:22:49 <Bike> because fuck it
22:24:16 <Taneb> We've got some churches and an old gaol
22:24:21 <Taneb> It's called The Old Gaol
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22:25:11 <kmc> it's what it says on the tin
22:25:14 <elliott> Bike: imo if you came to hexham we could have a hexham #esoteric meetup
22:26:04 <kmc> built 1330
22:26:14 <Bike> couldn't you have that anyway?
22:26:21 <elliott> yes but it wouldn't be the same without a bicycle.
22:26:34 <Bike> i'm not the only bicycle in the world
22:26:52 <elliott> you're the only one that matters... to me......
22:27:10 <Fiora> they just want my genderswap :|
22:28:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, if you go to hexham you can be the village bicycle
22:28:44 <Bike> isn't it a town
22:29:31 <fizzie> Is "Fiora" the term for a ladies' bicycle, or did I misunderstand something?
22:29:46 <Fiora> ... sorry, it's just an old in-joke
22:29:57 <Bike> Fioras are actually pegasi iirc
22:30:17 <elliott> fizzie: you misunderstood THE VALUE OF SPEECH RECOGNITION
22:30:19 <fizzie> We are cleaning up the Bike storage in this building, it's got a load of old cruft in it.
22:30:39 <elliott> how mean. Bike isn't old cruft.
22:30:44 <Fiora> pegasi? I think I prefer unicorns
22:30:48 <Fiora> but alicorns are pretty nice too
22:31:10 <fizzie> "Uniikki unikorni olikin korni koni."
22:33:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover are you sure you want to be making fun of people's names
22:33:14 <elliott> have you forgotten your name
22:33:50 <Taneb> He's named after a ethereal vacuum cleaner
22:34:00 <Fiora> Bike: http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/tagged/gpony seeeeeeeeeeee
22:34:03 <elliott> the mmnmhmsdnhfmhgdfmghsmhmfgh one
22:34:10 <Bike> well i can't argue with tumblr
22:34:10 <elliott> god dammit Phantom_Hoover what was it again
22:38:15 <Bike> wasn't that an alien race in Star Control
22:38:51 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: ok but seriously what is it
22:39:00 <elliott> i'm too lazy to grep the logs to find where fizzie revealed it
22:39:09 <Taneb> It was something normalish followed by keyboard mashing
22:39:14 <Taneb> harryfjwe[uiofgheapiugh or something
22:40:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is also named after a search engine
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22:47:03 <fizzie> Adahn. No, that was from Torment.
22:48:08 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: how can you actually bear to have that name
22:48:39 <zzo38> It doesn't seem so bad to me.
22:49:03 <elliott> Phantom___Hoover: also how do i know you're not lying
22:49:08 <Phantom___Hoover> when i meet people it's basically "oh what's your name" "domhnall" "donald?" "domhnall" "dougal" "domhnall" "donor?" etc. ad infinitum.
22:50:30 <zzo38> I have a talent agency form that someone else was filling up. It specifies the HST rate which must be used. Does this mean the contract is void if the HST rate changes? Anyways, there is no more HST at this time (there was no HST at the time the form was sent, either).
22:51:32 <Bike> huh i thought "domhnall" was welsh
22:51:44 <Bike> instead of... irish. ok
22:52:15 <zzo38> Under the skills list, it lists both "dj" and "disk jockey", and they misspelled "instrument" twice in two different ways; they also misspelled "secretary"; many things are missing.
22:52:38 <Phantom___Hoover> although i thing the whole domhnall-donald etymology is just goidelic or sth?
22:53:48 <zzo38> It also says "rocking climbing gear" under "props", as well as juggling props; if you have balls that you can juggle, but you don't know how to juggle, does that count? (Anyways, some people juggle knife, fire, etc, too; not only balls)
22:54:53 <fizzie> That's some rocking climbing gear you've got there.
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23:07:40 <shachaf> mnoqy: can i have some "monochrom wisdom" plz
23:08:30 <shachaf> it's like mnoqy wisdom except instead of mnoqy it's monochrom
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23:19:45 <Bike> are you resting peacefully
23:26:55 <Sgeo> Putting out fires is fun
23:27:09 <Sgeo> Although, I think, if I hadn't noticed and fixed it, someone else would have eventually
23:40:55 <Sgeo> It was not a literal fire.
23:41:49 <Sgeo> 'putting out fires' IS an expression that can be used for things that are not literally fires, right? I'm not just losing my grasp of the English language?
23:42:23 <Bike> usually you'd offer some kind of context
23:42:28 <Bike> so that we don't assume actual fires
23:42:33 <Phantom___Hoover> well see normally the thought process would be "well he would have done something that ridiculous → reëvaluate as humour → aha, that's what he meant"
23:43:14 <Sgeo> The build process was frozen during testing
23:43:23 <Sgeo> The build was going on for almost 30 minutes
23:43:24 <Phantom___Hoover> whereas in this case it went "well he wouldnt have something that ridiculous → would he → would he... → sgeo..."
23:44:17 <Sgeo> Before I aborted it and uploaded a patch, to tell the testing thing the thing it was choking on
23:44:30 <Sgeo> *to ignore the thing it was choking on
23:50:48 <mnoqy> well aiui he saved the day so ya
23:51:03 <mnoqy> do you get a party for yr heroic deed
23:51:39 <Sgeo> Phantom___Hoover, there were no tests for the code, it's third party code. Also, I tried to make sure someone else knows about it to investigate
23:54:17 <Sgeo> I do want to know why the tests broke
23:54:26 <Sgeo> Erm, the entire testing framework broke
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00:17:58 <zzo38> What bugs does that bugfixes has?
00:23:26 <ThatOtherPerson> The bugfix was supposed to remove a certain element from an array; but it instead removed all other elements from the array.
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00:37:10 <zzo38> No, solution is add a difficulty setting.
00:37:28 <mnoqy> no solution is to add a difficulty setting.
00:45:00 <ais523> when designing game levels for the first time, it's quite easy to make them too difficult and have to make easier ones
00:45:05 <ais523> fwiw, the first designed level of DNA Maze was level 10
00:45:18 <ais523> I realised it was too hard for a first level, so I added 9 before it
00:47:41 <zzo38> Yes, add more levels, is also one thing to do, if it is that kinds of games. There might be a level selector, though, too, depending on the game.
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01:01:29 <zzo38> Perhaps to allow to set the initial and maximum setting. Pokemon de Panepon almost does this: You can set the starting speed/ojama level 1 to 99, and there is also a "slow mode" which does not change. In addition, speed level 99 is not fast enough but if you push B,A,left,left when the copyright notice is displayed, then it will make the game much faster.
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01:03:36 <zzo38> In addition, there is also hidden option menu, which allows you to change the sound effect for chain/combo, turn on/off music and sound effect, and to change the number of digits of the score from 5 to 6. (I don't know why they made the score like this. If set to 5 (the default), the score maxes out at 99999. I have gotten many more points than that, though.)
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01:09:12 <zzo38> That game also has a hidden difficulty setting in VS.COM mode, which is a lot more difficult than the ordinary "hard" setting, but I still think it is too easy, so I have added a cheat code to speed it up to the maximum speed. I still have not completed that mode 100% when it is like this, although I completed some rounds.
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01:13:22 <Sgeo> I used Factor and Haskell at work today :)
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01:14:47 <Sgeo> Factor because I just wanted to see if a directory was changing, and I knew Factor had some good stuff for that (primarily used for its code reloading facilities), and Haskell because I wanted to profile something that seemed difficult to profile, so I decided to time how long it takes to output each line
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01:37:13 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/1dc5kc/the_algos_salsa10_and_salsa20_have_been_removed/
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01:38:39 <Bike> php is my hero
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02:01:35 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott
02:07:04 <ThatOtherPerson> Well, I just submitted Taneb and my game for ludum dare: http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-26/?action=preview&uid=18411
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02:12:27 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb I'll give you the password to my LD account later if you want to rate some of the other LD submissions
02:12:46 <elliott> 03:07:49 <elliott> what did taneb do
02:12:48 <elliott> 03:08:00 <ThatOtherPerson> He went to bed.
02:13:19 <ThatOtherPerson> He came up with the idea, and then we worked on it together
02:16:53 <ThatOtherPerson> @tell Taneb oh, and also http://www.ludumdare.com/compo/ludum-dare-26/?action=preview&uid=18411
02:26:29 <shachaf> `run echo monqy >> bin/smlist
02:26:39 <shachaf> `run echo mnoqy >> bin/smlist
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02:37:41 <kmc> <kmc> shachaf: do you know any good zero knowledge proofs
02:37:48 <kmc> <shachaf> kmc: i know a good one but i don't want to tell you what it is
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02:40:54 <Bike_> so as i was saying, -fuck- -you-
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02:46:02 <elliott> you don't even know the true meaning Bike!!
02:46:17 <Bike> there is no truth
02:52:44 <shachaf> Bike doesn't even have a good internet connection.............
02:53:00 <shachaf> i don't know if we can trust a bicycle without an internet connection
02:53:37 <Bike> If there is no truth you can't trust me hth.
02:54:10 <shachaf> Bike you never put a period after hth "its not allowed"
02:56:16 <shachaf> kmc: are there any zero knowledge "proofs" rather than "probability-based things....."
02:56:53 <Bike> geez, bet you don't like arthur merlin either
03:00:12 <kmc> shachaf: i don't know
03:18:31 <shachaf> kmc: prove that you don't know plz thx
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04:14:40 <HackEgo> 2013-04-24 12:18:45: <Saizan> shachaf: i've seen it mentioned here and there, and i was looking for somewhere else to lurk
04:15:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7713
04:34:00 <shachaf> Oh, in C++11 you can say "using" instead of "typedef".
04:36:12 <elliott> hey Bike you're my sleep doctor, should i go to sleep
04:36:27 <shachaf> can i be your sleep doctor
04:36:44 <shachaf> i would give you such advice
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04:49:12 <Bike> fuck that noise
04:49:33 <shachaf> elliott: imo make me your sleep doctor
04:49:42 <Bike> anyway: go the fuck to sleep you fucking shithead what the hell
04:49:51 <elliott> pure caring and understanding
04:50:00 <shachaf> bicycles don't have feelings
04:50:03 <Bike> what the fucking hell you fucking rot
04:50:11 <kmc> itt all fucks are given
04:50:22 <elliott> anyway it's only 5:50 i mean come on
04:50:25 <elliott> also it's daylight savings time?
04:50:31 <kmc> british double somertime
04:50:54 <Bike> well fuck DST so who cares.
04:50:58 <kmc> "I see." "Yeah, well that makes fucking one of us."
04:51:46 <Bike> Not from you. I want you to be asleep.
04:51:54 <Bike> kmc could tell me a joke, though, if he wants to
04:52:10 <elliott> i bet you've never even watched me sleep
04:52:26 <shachaf> (that message was addressed to mnoqy btw not to elliott)
04:52:26 <Bike> I appreciate you, and your (hypothetically) having a healthy sleep schedule.
04:52:44 <shachaf> Bike: have you considered "just giving up now"
04:52:57 <elliott> okay well i am sorry if i ever implied that the having of a healthy sleep schedule was a thing that was on the table as possibly happening
04:53:43 <mnoqy> i don't think watching me sleep is a "normal thing to do"
04:53:48 <mnoqy> i sure don't do it, at least
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04:54:42 <shachaf> mnoqy: have you considered that you're the weirdo here
04:55:25 <mnoqy> do they take turns or have a party or what
04:55:36 <shachaf> it's a big watch mnoqy sleep party
04:56:17 <mnoqy> i mean if u start having any fun then you'll wake the mnoqy up??? and then it's over
04:56:41 <shachaf> um you talk about boring things
04:56:57 <shachaf> like type systems.. and peru
04:57:08 <mnoqy> why would i talk about peru
04:57:15 <mnoqy> type systems makes sense but......peru.................
04:57:27 <shachaf> i was hoping you could answer that
04:57:49 <shachaf> sometimes you talk in polish but usually in english
04:58:22 <shachaf> and sometimes you talk about your dreams
04:58:37 <mnoqy> why would i talk in polish i didn't even know i knew polish
04:58:50 <shachaf> it's one of the unknown knowns, mnoqy
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05:00:18 <Bike> fuck this earth
05:00:45 <shachaf> Bike: do you watch mnoqy sleep
05:00:57 <Bike> Why the fuck would I do that.
05:01:17 <pikhq> Beats fucking Earth.
05:01:46 <mnoqy> is that an expression in english an idiom a
05:02:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: what's your favourite polish book
05:02:28 <Bike> the idiom's actually "fuck this gay earth" but i'm bein' all PC and shit
05:03:32 <elliott> do they speak polish in peru
05:03:39 <elliott> that's the important q here
05:03:46 <shachaf> what kind of question is that
05:03:58 <shachaf> why would they speak polish in peru
05:04:06 <shachaf> they speak peruvian in peru hth
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05:04:42 <shachaf> they speak polish in polishania
05:05:02 <mnoqy> do you watch elliott sleep too maybe you could learn a thing about ~whatever elliott talks about in his sleep~ i don't have watching elliott sleep parties but maybe you do maybe you do
05:05:36 <elliott> i think having mnoqy watch me sleep would be reassuring
05:06:01 <Bike_> pikhq: uh have you been there
05:06:44 <mnoqy> 22:02:11 <shachaf> mnoqy: what's your favourite polish book
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05:06:50 <mnoqy> i don't have polish book knowledge
05:07:04 <shachaf> mnoqy: i would watch elliott sleep but i'm too busy watching you sleep all the time to do it
05:07:05 <mnoqy> the extent of my polish book knowledge: polish, book, probably exists??
05:07:12 <shachaf> tbh i'm watching you sleep right now
05:07:23 <mnoqy> that explains why im dreaming
05:07:31 <elliott> well it'd be easier if mnoqy watched me sleep
05:07:32 <shachaf> mnoqy: you gotta choose a favourite polish book
05:07:42 <shachaf> mnoqy: okay i'll give you "2 options" and you choose one okay?
05:07:42 <elliott> then there could be some simultani-watching going on
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05:08:00 <shachaf> mnoqy: option1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaytek_the_Wizard
05:08:05 <shachaf> mnoqy: option2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cyberiad
05:08:20 <mnoqy> both of these look pretty punk
05:09:00 <mnoqy> hm i think i'll pick the cyberiad is that a good choice
05:09:12 <shachaf> let's ask Bike when he gets back
05:09:50 <elliott> mnoqy: am I pretty punk? this is of approximately 7/10 importance to me
05:10:08 <shachaf> wow that's several importances
05:10:26 <mnoqy> are you a long horse and/or flying wizard
05:10:44 <shachaf> wait wait wait long horse?
05:10:53 <kmc> double punk is ska
05:11:00 <shachaf> kmc: did you read the cyberiad
05:11:26 <shachaf> @ask Bike mnoqy had to pick a favourite polish book: <mnoqy> hm i think i'll pick the cyberiad is that a good choice
05:12:08 <mnoqy> what if he comes back and his name is Bike_ or not even a bike at all???????what if he's not bike he's something else he's
05:14:25 <kmc> shachaf: no
05:14:27 <kmc> it is my shame :(
05:14:37 <kmc> when will bike come back :(
05:15:51 <kmc> one hopes not
05:16:11 <shachaf> "neve" is shorthand for "new year's eve"
05:16:15 <kmc> shachaf: o
05:16:35 <mnoqy> kmc WATCH OUT this question is RIGGED
05:17:24 <kmc> `run perl -e 'print "Should elliott sleep? imo " . ("yes","no")[rand 2] . "\n"'
05:17:25 <HackEgo> Should elliott sleep? imo no
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05:20:05 <shachaf> `run ruby -e 'puts "Should elliott sleep? imo #{%w(yes no)[rand 2]}"'
05:20:06 <HackEgo> bash: ruby: command not found
05:20:12 <shachaf> ............................................................
05:20:23 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
05:20:27 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 9m 1s ago: mnoqy had to pick a favourite polish book: <mnoqy> hm i think i'll pick the cyberiad is that a good choice
05:20:49 <shachaf> Bike: his other option was this really obscure polish book you've never even heard of
05:20:50 <Bike> personally i would have picked glos pana, but whatever
05:20:57 <Bike> that's pretty obscure.
05:21:00 <shachaf> Bike: he only had two options!!!!!!
05:21:02 <Bike> Is it about 40% of the population dying?
05:21:18 <mnoqy> glos pana looks pretty punk too
05:21:26 <shachaf> i've never read any book by lem
05:21:29 <elliott> mnoqy: what's the punkest thing
05:21:44 <kmc> yay Bike is back
05:22:00 <mnoqy> elliott: long flying horse wizard kills 40% of population
05:22:03 <mnoqy> elliott: that is the punkest thing
05:22:20 <Bike> i had to restart two routers and also my computer four times
05:22:24 <Bike> i'm bad with technology.
05:22:28 <kmc> i have been to poland
05:22:45 <elliott> well i'm afraid kmc wins this round of harrowing experiences
05:22:49 <Bike> I had a dream where I was eaten by a Polish person
05:22:54 <kmc> elliott: lolol
05:22:58 <kmc> elliott: have u been to poland y/n
05:23:12 <shachaf> elliott hasn't even been off his island
05:23:40 <kmc> elliott: where did you go
05:24:07 <kmc> hm should we start using 'v' as a second persn pronoun
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05:24:10 <kmc> let's try this out shall we
05:24:14 <kmc> elliott: where did v go
05:24:19 <kmc> no good imo
05:24:26 <shachaf> i've been to....... the czech republic
05:24:32 <shachaf> that's the closest i've been to poland does that count
05:24:38 <kmc> i've never been not on a train in the czech republic
05:24:59 <Bike_> kmc: is this a t/v distinction joke? ver. high brow
05:25:02 <ion> > flip evalState the_value_from_newStdGen_i_wish_lambdabot_provided_for_the_pure_code $ (["yes", "no"] !!) <$> state (randomR (0,1))
05:26:24 <elliott> > the_value_from_newStdGen_i_wish_lambdabot_provided_for_the_pure_code
05:26:26 <lambdabot> `the_value_from_newStdGen_i_wish_lambdabot_provided_for_th...
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05:28:02 <elliott> Bike: get a fucking bouncer
05:28:49 <Bike> but that's work
05:29:55 <kmc> get a fucking mosh
05:29:56 <fizzie> A "fucking bouncer" is some kinda sex device, right?
05:30:10 <Bike> kmc's allll about the lulz
05:30:46 <elliott> here's my offer if you disconnect a bunch and it pisses me off i'll give you an account on solidity to irc from but because you're not paying me i can't promise i won't steal your password
05:30:47 <mnoqy> bouncer's that thing kiddos play in right
05:30:53 <elliott> anyone up for taking that offer
05:30:54 <kmc> i should buy more sex devices
05:30:55 <mnoqy> castles and such, lots of air
05:30:57 <elliott> ph i'm thinking of you too here
05:31:04 <elliott> mnoqy: do u mean `bouncy castle'
05:31:05 <Bike> the fuck is solidity
05:31:12 <elliott> Bike: the esolangs.org server
05:31:18 <HackEgo> 249) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
05:31:26 <Bike> i'll take that
05:31:34 <mnoqy> elliott: well maybe it's not a castle what if it's a normal house for people in it
05:31:38 <shachaf> hey can i steal Bike's password
05:31:40 <elliott> Bike: i have to write the keylogger first sorry
05:31:53 <Bike> i'll wait here
05:31:58 <mnoqy> elliott: or a chicken probably you could make that work i'm sure you have the clever and the knack i'm sure you could
05:31:59 <elliott> Bike: also i thought you wanted me to sleep
05:32:05 <shachaf> Bike: why don't you make yourself useful, write a keylogger for elliott
05:32:09 <elliott> mnoqy: well i'd prefer a castle
05:32:14 <Bike> well yes, but i'm sufficiently irritated at technology that you should do this
05:32:15 <shachaf> when he wakes up you can send it to him and then he'll give you your account
05:32:16 <mnoqy> what if it's a space ship
05:32:18 <Bike> i dunno you could do it tomorrow
05:32:23 <elliott> underhanded c contest idea: write a keylogger that also leaks the data to a server of your own
05:32:39 <elliott> fun because anyone reading the code will expect it to do malicious things
05:32:53 <kmc> crystal castles?
05:33:02 <mnoqy> crystal isnt very bouncy ime
05:33:24 <Bike> does Quechua count as the 'Peruvian' language?
05:33:25 <elliott> mnoqy: um green crystal is
05:33:31 <mnoqy> elliott: thats bad
05:34:56 <shachaf> mnoqy: hey btw are you coming to "bayhac 2013"
05:35:00 <elliott> unfortunately shachaf is wrong
05:35:05 <mnoqy> shachaf: whats that
05:35:10 <shachaf> bay area haskell hackathon
05:39:10 <elliott> Bike: something dangerous is happening
05:39:31 <shachaf> elliott: you will never be the most tired
05:39:45 <mnoqy> heLp nowim tired too
05:39:58 <mnoqy> i still have work to do!!
05:39:59 <shachaf> did you see the super mega update
05:40:21 <elliott> mnoqy: its ok you can watch me sleep
05:40:27 <mnoqy> i also really want to draw stuff maybe i'll do another self portrait i've been drawiing other stuff but not those lately
05:40:46 <elliott> how about a self portrait of fungot
05:40:47 <fungot> elliott: it seems like they'd still be feasible in non-copying gcs though. i got it
05:41:41 <shachaf> mnoqy: can i see the other stuff plez\\
05:42:14 <shachaf> mnoqy: when are you coming to san francisco btw
05:46:06 <mnoqy> whwhats the big deal with sanfransicsso anyway
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10:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how this is basically a chart of how much the sea deviates from sea level
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10:32:30 <shachaf> oerjan: This looks like vandalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Creole&diff=552828350&oldid=551866575
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14:09:20 <boily> there must be some silent spectres floating around.
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15:22:11 <Taneb> One of my friends got a lithops, also known as a living stone.
15:22:11 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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15:32:21 <kmc> Florida Man Tells Cops He's Not Hurting Anyone As He Huffs Ultra Duster At Car Wash
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15:48:17 <Koen_> Taneb: I wanna try your game
15:48:55 <Koen_> (nt now though but if I hadn't asked I would've forgot)
15:49:00 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson: the gh-page isn't working
15:49:53 <Taneb> http://t-and-t.github.io/LD26/index.html
15:51:48 <Taneb> Koen_: the whole game is kinda buggy
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16:05:54 <Taneb> I'm gonna watch Doctor Who now
16:05:57 <Taneb> Then maybe Vicious
16:06:30 <fizzie> Antimatter apples: they're purple.
16:06:35 <fizzie> (Source: http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat/article6614350.ece/ALTERNATES/w580/gravitaatio+antigravitaatio.jpg )
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16:52:07 <Taneb> Vicious didn't record
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17:01:28 <Gregor> <kmc> Florida Man Tells Cops He's Not Hurting Anyone As He Huffs Ultra Duster At Car Wash // Florida Man is the best superhero, no? :)
17:01:59 <Gregor> ‘He [this news report's Florida Man] also said to officers, “Don’t cut my penis off,” then changed his mind and said, “Cut my penis off,” according to the report.’
17:12:00 <Gregor> pikhq: https://twitter.com/_FloridaMan
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17:28:37 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the first hit for spaceshiptwo on the google news search is CBBC
17:29:13 <elliott> not for me, maybe it just decided you like cbbc
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17:48:53 <Gregor> I wish there was a canonical, non-customized way to search Google, just so that one could figure out the pre-customization ranking of things they care about.
17:49:29 <pikhq> Google doesn't really want people optimizing to that though.
17:50:58 <kmc> is no-cookies not good enough?
17:51:32 <elliott> kmc: pretty sure your location and IP and the like have an effect too
17:52:34 <boily> language has very weird effects, even if you're always searching for stuff in English.
17:53:43 <elliott> i wonder if browser ever has an effect
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18:16:20 <boily> the Internet is magnanimous and hates all equally.
18:16:30 <boily> (it's just a little bit more apparent for some.)
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18:21:20 <boily> the Internet hates me too, in its own soul-crushing way. I have to swap between dhcpcd and dhclient each time I try to connect to a wireless router.
18:21:29 <boily> or, sometimes, the router gets stolen.
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18:24:42 <AnotherTest> oh nice, there is a stack exchange for mathematics
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18:25:06 <elliott> there is also mathoverflow.net
18:25:07 <Gregor> I'm installing Windows XP in a virtual machine. "Windows XP Professional also supports DVD-RAM drives."
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18:26:54 <AnotherTest> Gregor: has the indoctrination started yet? "the most secure operating system"
18:27:04 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: mathoverflow is an independent site that runs on an old version of the stack overflow software
18:27:14 <elliott> http://math.stackexchange.com/ is part of the actual stackexchange network thing
18:27:27 <AnotherTest> "with the most amazing and safe web browser: internet explorer 6"
18:27:56 <AnotherTest> "Sorry, your request could not be completed because it looked suspicious. If you meant to perform an action on Mathematics Stack Exchange, please return to the previous page and try again. "
18:29:19 <Taneb> How does one gain arm-muscles
18:29:29 <Taneb> This is an important question
18:29:54 <Gregor> Taneb: Picking fights with random people on the street.
18:30:14 <boily> throwing dumbbells on random people on the street.
18:30:30 <AnotherTest> Why do I have 101 reputation right after logging in?
18:30:39 <Taneb> Gregor: but if I do that and elliott decides to go outside the universe could end
18:31:02 <Gregor> Oh please, like elliott would go outside.
18:31:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb's shitty connection is a conspiracy to get him outside
18:31:32 <Taneb> Also I tried picking a fight with someone in a maths classroom but we didn't know what to do next
18:31:52 <Taneb> It seems I am neither a lover nor a fighter, and for the same reason
18:33:23 <AnotherTest> So now I have 101 reputation on a website about mathematics whereas I don't know a lot about mathematics at all
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18:37:29 <Phantom__Hoover> what's the word for when you think you're living in a douglas adams novel
18:44:23 <Gregor> <AnotherTest> "with the most amazing and safe web browser: internet explorer 6" // It just told me that it includes "the latest and most secure version of Internet Explorer to date"
18:44:49 <Gregor> Which was certainly true, I suppose. But that's like saying "this is the safest way of shooting yourself in the foot"
18:52:26 <zzo38> Are you sure the most secure isn't Lynx or something like that? Or something with a VM for each file?
18:53:01 <Bike> does internet explorer open a VM for each file
18:53:30 <Taneb> zzo38: is Lynx a version of Internet Explorer
18:55:31 <kmc> they had to say "amazing" because the word "awesome" hadn't been invented yet
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18:57:14 <zzo38> I mean the most secure and safe web browser program
18:57:43 <zzo38> Bike: Maybe some versions does; I don't know. Version 6 isn't the newest version anyways.
18:57:58 <olsner> web browser programs are the things you program with HTML, right?
18:58:48 <zzo38> Well, Mozilla based browsers are most commonly programmed with XUL, although HTML can be used too
19:03:05 -!- Bike has set topic: a hypothetical anarcho-capitalist world of haskell programmers | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:03:47 <elliott> kmc: i think Bike is cyberbullying me
19:04:10 -!- elliott has set topic: a hypothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:04:19 <elliott> Bike: ur true motivations reveeled
19:04:40 <Bike> elliott: http://25.media.tumblr.com/b619a71641ffec918968cb3eb11e97f0/tumblr_mkuideonL71qzeo2zo1_400.jpg
19:05:00 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: a hypothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | Join the revolt against the regime and support trikes! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:05:04 <olsner> "DVD-RAM" should be a special kind of secure (e.g. write-only) memory required by DVD copy protection
19:06:03 <olsner> hmm, make that write-only *and* read-only to prevent you from either corrupting or extracting the data
19:07:02 <kmc> bike anarchists
19:07:29 <kmc> are commonly encountered in the wild
19:08:12 * Bike shouts about collectivization, attempts to throw a molotov at kmc, is stymied by only having one arm
19:08:59 <Gregor> <olsner> hmm, make that write-only *and* read-only to prevent you from either corrupting or extracting the data // Arguably... ARGUABLY... "write-only" means +w-rx, not just -rx, and "read-only" means +r, not +r-wx
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19:09:56 <elliott> Bike: my mental image of a bike with an arm is just so perfect
19:10:04 <elliott> imo it's better than birds with arms
19:10:15 * boily thinks of trogdor.
19:11:07 <Bike> it's a good and accurate image
19:12:09 <olsner> Gregor: mmyeah... think of the intersection between read-only and write-only or so
19:12:43 <olsner> (oh, and I doubt this has executable bits ... otoh, executable but unreadable and unwritable memory almost makes sense)
19:16:47 <olsner> or take read-only = unwritable and write-only = unreadable perhaps? except that unreadable includes all permissions except read, while write-only only includes write
19:18:48 * olsner defiantly waves *two* arms at Bike
19:18:49 * Bike sticks some rebar between ThatOtherPerson's tricycle's spokes
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19:22:50 <kmc> bikewise and
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19:27:21 <AnotherTest> Anyone please: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/377520/is-the-knuth-arrowup-notation-defined-for-non-natural-exponents?
19:28:06 <AnotherTest> but if someone here happens to know more about it
19:28:06 <Bike> up arrows are equivalent to hyper and a bit aren't they
19:28:23 <AnotherTest> Bike: as far as I know (but I don't know a lot) yes
19:28:25 <pikhq> Analogous to hyper.
19:28:46 <pikhq> The typical treatment of it isn't defined for non-naturals.
19:28:53 <Bike> i'm not sure you can seriously generalize hyper past naturals
19:29:04 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure if one could.
19:29:07 <Bike> i mean look at the problems with even tetration on non-naturals
19:29:11 <pikhq> I just know it generally isn't. :)
19:29:22 <Bike> i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration#Extension_to_real_heights
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19:31:34 <Bike> might be some interesting math in there though, like a generalized euler formula or w/e
19:32:03 <mroman> Does a morphism map between categories?
19:32:16 <Bike> between objects in a category
19:32:27 <mroman> But inside the same category?
19:32:39 <mroman> so f : A -> B means, that B is still in the same category?
19:32:54 <mroman> an object of that category
19:33:14 <mroman> whereas a functor assigns to an object in Category A an object in Category B?
19:33:54 <pikhq> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+random+pokemon+curve I've heard of silly features but dang.
19:34:10 <mroman> Then what sense does it make to subscript id?
19:34:30 <elliott> mroman: a functor doesn't just do that
19:34:36 <Bike> because morphisms are between individual objects
19:34:53 <Bike> there can be a different (identity) morphism X -> X from Y -> Y, for X and Y in the same category
19:34:55 <elliott> a functor maps objects in C to objects in D and also morphisms (A ->C B) to morphisms (F(A) ->D F(B))
19:34:55 <mroman> So every object has an identity morphism?
19:35:11 <Bike> pikhq: that's fantastic.
19:35:21 <mroman> but id_B is the identity morphism of an Object called B?
19:35:33 <mroman> but still in the same category?
19:35:41 <Bike> is what in the same category
19:35:50 <pikhq> Bike: If you look up $POKEMON-like curve it'll even hand you the parametric equations.
19:36:04 <Bike> pikhq: i like that they're imperfect
19:36:38 <kmc> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cannabis+curve
19:37:49 <Bike> AnotherTest: the problem with defining extensions like that is that you generally want them to "fit" what you've already got well, which is not always trivial (c.f. gamma function)
19:38:15 <Bike> (in which there are infinitely many possible extensions but luckily only one that fits some useful properties, so we use that one)
19:38:48 <mroman> The notation is really confusing :)
19:38:51 <Bike> sure, but you have to work on it
19:38:59 <Bike> and hyper operations are rather obscure
19:39:07 <Bike> and the situation already seems a tad hopeless for tetration
19:39:21 <AnotherTest> Bike: I'm afraid my mathematics skill are not good enough to work on this (which is also why I'm asking)
19:39:41 <Bike> well i don't know much about it either, i'm just saying not many mathematicians have bothered with hyper operations
19:40:15 <Bike> they're generally used for getting /really/ big numbers, like for knuth's combinatorics and graham's (which is also pretty combinatoric), so they might not bother investigating the properties too much
19:40:23 <Bike> then again knuth's written plenty on the related W function so i dunno.
19:41:03 <Bike> (related -> apparently tetration on infinities uses it, reasonably enough)
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19:46:51 <Bike> well fine, jerk
19:48:27 <Jafet> The up-yours notation
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20:00:41 <boily> «dix-huit wadelle-p-elle»?
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20:10:06 <boily> kmc: trying to understand elliott's sudden identity crisis through French phonotactics.
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20:26:36 <zzo38> In linear logic, is accepting X the dual of providing X?
20:30:41 <tromp> any robozzle experts here?
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20:34:13 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: This looks like vandalism: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Creole&diff=552828350&oldid=551866575 <-- already reverted
20:34:51 * oerjan skips the rest of the logs
20:34:57 <elliott> why is shachaf reporting wikipedia vandalism to oerjan...
20:35:12 <oerjan> elliott: heck if i know
20:35:41 <oerjan> presumably he is not sure if pigeon is a proper linguistic term
20:37:19 <elliott> somehow I doubt he actually thought your expertise was required :P
20:38:28 <oerjan> well i _am_ able to tell him that pidgin is the appropriate term hth
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20:41:20 <fizzie> From ##elsewhere, php_iconv_string: http://sprunge.us/ZgZV?c
20:43:31 <Jafet> This is why PHP is one of the safest languages
20:46:27 <fizzie> Sadly, it doesn't write out of bounds; it just returns an PHP_ICONV_ERR_UNKNOWN if it doesn't fit. But still. "For safety."
20:46:52 <kmc> Unicode has one ligature character that decomposes into 23 characters
20:47:01 <kmc> although my attempts to get it to decompose with NFKD normalization failed
20:47:20 <kmc> U+FDFD 'ARABIC LIGATURE BISMILLAH AR-RAHMAN AR-RAHEEM'
20:47:22 <fizzie> Is it a ligature that says "Unicode rules"?
20:47:29 <kmc> if by "unicode" you mean "allah"
20:47:56 <kmc> ﷽ ⇒ بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم
20:48:33 <kmc> Mae enw Duw y trugarog, yr Tosturiol
20:50:29 <olsner> at least they used sizeof(int) instead of hardcoding the incorrect constant 4
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20:55:45 <kmc> you all saw http://use.perl.org/use.perl.org/_Aristotle/journal/33448.html right?
20:55:57 <kmc> they check sizeof(char) just in case
20:57:04 <Fiora> kmc: but what if my int is greater than INT_MAX
20:57:07 <Fiora> what iiiifffffffff
20:57:11 <Bike_> if (sizeof(char) > 1) die("there is no god")
20:57:30 <boily> I like my chars like I like my women. only one.
20:57:30 <pikhq> Hey, there's a perfectly valid use of sizeof(char). It lets you do a value of type size_t without size_t being defined. :P
20:58:07 <Fiora> that is an amazing page kmc
20:58:19 <Fiora> and geez. using floats
20:58:32 <Bike_> "they have a bigger range!"
20:58:38 <Fiora> I mean, at least arguably doubles would be big enough that they have enough precision for the calculation (but oh gosh why not just use uint64_t ... )
20:59:03 <olsner> maybe because uint64_t isn't C89
20:59:35 <pikhq> Yeah, well, fuck Visual C++.
20:59:37 <Fiora> ummmmm unsigned long long? I guess in theory that could be the same size as unsigned int
21:00:01 <Jafet> stack_node stack[32], *top = stack; /* 32 is enough for 32bit CPU */
21:00:04 <pikhq> Fiora: "long long" isn't C89. :)
21:00:33 <Fiora> really? @_@ oh geez
21:01:02 <kmc> unsigned long long long long long x; // should be long enough
21:01:15 <olsner> I have once seen a compiler that didn't have any 64-bit type
21:01:20 <kmc> foo.c:4:20: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC
21:01:28 <olsner> something like gcc 2.8 for symbian
21:01:28 <pikhq> Basically the only reason C89 lives is that Microsoft is running IE6 on its compiler.
21:01:43 <Jafet> too_long_for_gcc.avi
21:01:53 <kmc> request entity too large
21:03:22 <Fiora> I remember reading a thing about how integrating __int128 into Cish features wouldn't work because it'd change uintmax_t
21:03:32 <Fiora> thus breaking backwards compatibility, I think
21:03:47 <fizzie> I still think a short long int should be just a regular int, and in general each long would double the size and each short halve it. (Not sure about fractional bits.)
21:04:32 <pikhq> Fiora: Specifically, it'd break ABI.
21:04:32 <fizzie> (And why isn't "short short i" "too short for GCC"?)
21:05:34 <Jafet> gcc_short_shorts.avi
21:06:07 <Fiora> fizzie: short short short short short short short short short int
21:06:18 <Fiora> maybe you can implement arithmetic coders that way. like. with 1/16th of a bit
21:07:13 <pikhq> Wouldn't quite work for arithmetic coding.
21:07:26 <Fiora> (sorry, that was a bad joke -_-)
21:08:05 <pikhq> Well. short^64 int code[SIZE_T_MAX]; would work. Ish. :P
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21:08:28 <Fiora> that's... that's so silly XD
21:08:30 <kmc> Fiora: i like the joke
21:08:41 <Bike> why doesn't C have a power-type operator? should be in C11, imo
21:09:07 <pikhq> Bike: Preprocessor. Duh.
21:09:16 <Fiora> oh gosh now I'm imagining tetrated operators
21:09:20 <pikhq> #define SHORT_64 SHORT_32 SHORT_32
21:10:03 <Bike> that's "not" "elegant", "pikhq"
21:10:16 <Fiora> long^^LONG_MAX universe;
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21:10:36 <elliott> fun fact if iou define a realli big arrai gcc has an internal error
21:10:41 <elliott> other fun fact i just broke mi i kei
21:10:54 <Fiora> while(1) quantum_compute_step( &universe );
21:11:24 <Bike> how many bits would that even be
21:11:48 <Fiora> um. I guess that would be 2^^(2^32)
21:11:56 <kmc> elliott: did you actually break your y key
21:11:57 <Fiora> or 2^2^2^2 [... 2^32 times]
21:12:07 <kmc> here are some spare y's you can copy paste yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
21:12:21 <Bike> Fiora: tetration~
21:12:23 <Fiora> or I guess. doubling the number of binary digits 2^32 times...?
21:12:32 <olsner> oh no.... how long will elliott have a broken keyboard this time
21:12:44 <elliott> i knew someone would sai that
21:12:55 <Fiora> so um, log(universe) ~= 2^(2^32)?
21:12:55 <kmc> what was broken last time and how long did it last
21:13:11 <Fiora> ... so um.... log(log(universe)) == 2^32
21:13:13 <kmc> then it got better (praise jesus)?
21:13:14 <elliott> one thousand and twenti four
21:13:16 <Fiora> that's a big universe
21:13:19 <Bike> Fiora: an approximation worthy of our greatest physicists
21:13:24 <elliott> kmc: no i broke the laptop completeli
21:13:28 <kmc> elliott: allways spelling out numbers is a p. good affectation
21:13:35 <Fiora> okay this is really silly an ddumb
21:13:52 <elliott> i had to use an on screen keiboard to tipe numeric literals
21:13:52 <Bike> dude are you gonna keep up the i's? rad
21:14:12 <elliott> it feels like an accent i can't get rid of
21:14:36 <olsner> did you write a header file with useful number macros and use spelled out numbers in all your code?
21:14:45 <elliott> no i am not cool enough for that
21:14:51 <kmc> int one = 1; int five = (one << (one << one)) | one;
21:14:57 <elliott> kmc: i did tings like that
21:15:02 <elliott> iirc mi 1 kei worked maibe?
21:15:20 <elliott> or maibe i just copied one 1 and then repeated it
21:15:26 <pikhq> elliott: Wanna bet GCC records array sizes with ints? :P
21:15:40 <elliott> wanna bet i'll go insane with no i kei soon
21:15:55 <olsner> then one one one one would be 4
21:15:59 <Fiora> kmc: is that like, the shortest way to write out 5 with nothing but 1s?
21:16:01 <Bike> unary is the future
21:16:30 <Bike> Fiora: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants is clearly relevant
21:16:51 <Fiora> that's... that's amazing
21:16:56 <kmc> http://blog.pnuts.tk/2013/04/plaidctf-pyjail-story-of-pythons-escape.html has some of that going on
21:17:04 <kmc> Fiora: i doubt it's shortest
21:17:29 <kmc> i was just following binary encoding, recursively
21:17:40 <Fiora> I can't think of how to do it with 3 1s >_<
21:17:52 <kmc> `run python -c 'print ~(~(~(~(({}<[])<<({}<[]))<<({}<[]))<<({}<[]))<<({}<[]))<<({}<[])'
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21:19:49 <Bike> it's a pretty nice «kolmogorov complexity ín the «'"real"'» "«'world»"'» thing i think
21:20:40 <Bike> rather nicer than "well, it sorta fits log, kinda"
21:20:56 <kmc> though the language you get in that ctf might not be turing complete
21:21:07 <kmc> but I think it is because they can eval() an arbitrary number of times? dunno
21:21:12 <kmc> didn't pay super close attention
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21:21:43 <elliott> kmc: do iou know anithing about keiboards
21:21:49 <kmc> some things
21:22:39 <olsner> "when possible, use a keyboard where the keys work"
21:22:44 <elliott> kmc: as well as mi i kei, shift-6 and shift-7 also don't do anithing
21:23:03 <kmc> but shift and 6 and 7 work by themselves?
21:23:09 <elliott> but not shift-h or shift-j
21:23:18 <elliott> onli broken unshifted kei is i
21:23:33 <elliott> this is to do with uhh like
21:23:37 <elliott> the thingies thei use right
21:23:44 <olsner> everything is broken with shift?
21:23:48 <Bike> have you like, cleaned it
21:24:00 <kmc> elliott: that's pretty weird, shouldn't happen with just a physical fault in the key matrix I guess
21:24:09 <kmc> did you try rebooting your keyboard (seriously)
21:24:46 <elliott> or just rebooting computer
21:24:55 <elliott> Bike: p sure it's not dirti
21:25:25 <boily> what happens if you stare at your keyboard really hard?
21:25:26 <elliott> shift-n doesn't work either
21:26:25 <elliott> i managed to tipe an i incidentalli
21:26:34 <elliott> but then pressing it again like did nothing for a short delai and then did like
21:26:42 <elliott> and now it's not working again
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21:28:00 <elliott> alos this started when i like
21:28:18 <elliott> and it decided it was overworked and gave up i guess?
21:30:18 <olsner> maybe you actually just broke the key (though the followup symptoms are a bit weird I guess)
21:30:30 <elliott> the phisical kei seems to press ok
21:30:37 <elliott> maibe slightli mushier than the other keis?
21:30:46 <olsner> well, the switch under it
21:31:34 <elliott> well i could take the kei off but i am scared because it is rather firml on
21:31:42 <elliott> kmc: (how do i reboot a keiboard)
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21:32:37 <kmc> yeah plucg and unpulg
21:33:01 <olsner> there's some reset sequence you can send the keyboard too, but I think something (what?) usually does that automatically after replugging
21:33:37 -!- DH____ has joined.
21:33:40 <olsner> (might be different with new-fangled things like USB)
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21:34:40 -!- kmc has set topic: avoiding the penultimate letter of the English alphabet in solidariti with elliott | a hipothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | Join the revolt against the regime and support trikes! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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21:35:06 -!- boily has changed nick to boili.
21:35:11 <olsner> too bad the urls don't have any is in them
21:35:20 <kmc> i was thinking that, i would url encode them
21:35:28 -!- boili has changed nick to boily.
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21:35:54 <olsner> maibe a bot could be set up to kick anione who slips up
21:36:55 <boily> not myne. my metasepya ys pure and wouldn't do no harm to anybody.
21:37:12 <elliott> boily: bo[ij]l[ij], please
21:37:32 <mnoqy> imo elliott should dang fix his kejboard
21:37:43 <boily> nope. I'm Canadian, therefore neutral. :D
21:37:53 <elliott> imo rebooting it is a pain
21:37:56 <elliott> because mi wires are a mess
21:38:05 <elliott> kmc: do iou think rebooting the laptop would do the equivalent reboot
21:38:46 <boily> trij. now that just sounds dutch.
21:38:47 <kmc> itt we are dutch
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21:39:01 <olsner> elliott: perhaps the dutch got into ijour keijboard in an effort to reform ijou to the digraph ij
21:39:41 <olsner> hmm, that looks like ÿ
21:40:21 <boily> ÿ is supposedly French. it's used in some 2 or 3 random small villages names out there, and that's it.
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21:45:34 <nooodl_> huh. i'm reading about diaereses now, and
21:46:08 <nooodl_> i never knüe (laugh track) (seriously though, that looks strange)
21:47:48 <boily> nooodl_: it's aiguë. French has ¨ on ë, ï and the rarer than a working N64 controller after a tournament of mario party, ÿ.
21:48:28 <nooodl_> "In the ongoing French spelling reform of 1990, this was moved to the u (aigüe, cigüe), though the earlier orthography continues to be widely used."
21:48:29 <mnoqy> maybe some sillyman wrote it on the wrong letter
21:49:05 <boily> the reform doesn't exist. it's a myth.
21:50:25 <boily> ah no. Québec simply doesn't exist. I'm not even in it right now!
21:50:37 <zzo38> Somewhere, I have read that the "par" operator in linear logic means that you can have both but you cannot use them together. I think I can understand how that works.
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21:58:41 <boily> back to my scheduled nocturnal non-existence.
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22:12:11 <shachaf> oerjan: Last time I linked to a page about the etymology of Nikolay or something, and you noticed it was vandalism and reverted it.
22:12:18 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
22:12:28 <shachaf> Since I don't edit Wikipedia, and I noticed moer vandalism, I thought maybe you could do the same thing.
22:20:26 <nooodl_> pretty sure nobody types ij as ij anywhere
22:20:45 <Bike> i've heard rumors that they do in the darkness of the nether-lands
22:20:53 <kmc> the low countries
22:21:14 <olsner> you could map ijour ij key to ij
22:21:54 -!- rapido has joined.
22:22:23 <nooodl_> really why do unicode ligatures exist urgh
22:23:11 <kmc> often for reasons of round-trip compat.
22:23:24 <kmc> which is a dumb goal but without it we might not have unicode at all...........
22:23:46 <shachaf> how do you catch a unique code
22:23:47 <nooodl_> i can somehow see why, for example, fi exists, but
22:23:59 <nooodl_> does anyone but me even write ij as something that isn't just ij
22:24:09 <elliott> it isn't about what people do
22:24:12 <elliott> it's about what charsets do
22:24:20 <kmc> if you're designing a programming language it's nice to have a data type which means "sequence of Unicode codepoints" and deal with different byte-encodings only at the IO level
22:24:36 <kmc> Ruby lacks this property, the Ruby string type is a byte string + metadata about the encoding, and it's nasty
22:24:53 <nooodl_> elliott: well that was poorly worded from me, but,
22:25:05 <nooodl_> ij looks exactly like ij *everywhere*
22:25:21 <nooodl_> it's like having a separate unicode codepoint for.. "ou" or "th" or whatever in english
22:25:30 <olsner> what was the rationale for doing that in ruby?
22:26:10 <nooodl_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Rijks_museum_logo.png
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22:27:08 <shachaf> kmc: Are you talking about Ruby 1.8 or 1.9?
22:27:15 <shachaf> (I gues 2.0 is out too by now.)
22:27:28 <kmc> shachaf: i'm... not sure. i don't know ruby, just hear people complaining about this
22:27:32 <shachaf> Anyway Unicode support is much better in modern Ruby than it used to be.
22:27:46 <rapido> anyone care to discuss SPREAD: a new retroactive programming language?
22:28:01 <Bike> like a spread of marmite i hope
22:28:22 <rapido> more like 'spread the word'
22:28:52 <shachaf> It's a lot like Python 3, except people actually use Ruby 1.9.
22:28:55 <Bike> social dynamics?
22:29:53 <shachaf> Or maybe I just misunderstood what you meant. I don't think ByteString + metadata is necessarily so bad, as long as "ábc".length == 3 etc.
22:30:13 <rapido> Bike: spread has computational traces that are first class objects and can be manipulated by other computations
22:30:21 <Bike> wow, i have no idea what that means
22:31:07 <rapido> Bike: a trace is a list of (intermediate) computational steps
22:31:10 <kmc> shachaf: if i took a job in Mountain View would it erase all my urbanist cred :(
22:31:20 <kmc> i would live in SF and commute by cal"the worst train"train
22:31:21 <Bike> like a bunch of continuations?
22:31:26 <Bike> or a vector of states i guess
22:31:41 <rapido> every value carries its trace that lead to itself
22:31:54 <shachaf> kmc: if it was at a huge company you could get a "huge company shuttle"
22:31:59 <rapido> you can query and destruct such trace at runtime
22:32:11 <rapido> and re-use bits of the trace in other computations
22:32:53 <kmc> shachaf: i think i'm opposed to those
22:33:04 <kmc> google should help SF build better transit instead of running a silly private bus system for rich people only
22:33:31 <rapido> you can roll back to certain 'key' points in a trace, 'modify' a certain parameter and go from there
22:33:51 <Bike> sounds like continuations
22:33:59 <kmc> i once wrote a debugger-interpreter that recorded the whole history of states, and would let you navigate back and explore different traces
22:34:05 <kmc> and write automated explorations of this trace
22:34:24 <Bike> was it useful?
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22:34:41 <kmc> it was a class project thing and for a toy language
22:34:43 <shachaf> kmc: that would be nice but i think "should" is going a little far
22:34:48 <kmc> so i never built it to the point where it was 'useful'
22:35:24 <shachaf> where is your mountain view job going to be
22:35:39 <kmc> matasano is in MV, i might apply there
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22:36:24 <elliott> does that mean iou're going to make me feel even worse about not knowing cripto
22:36:25 <kmc> do you have 'mountain view advice'
22:36:43 <kmc> otoh most of the cripto i know is from their cripto puzzles
22:36:49 <kmc> which u can do
22:36:57 <elliott> no i can't, it involves not being lazi
22:37:03 <kmc> tri amphetamines
22:37:18 <rapido> Bike: not really continuations. continuations only serialise the current state, not the whole history that led to that state
22:37:40 <rapido> ok, a list of continuations
22:37:46 <kmc> reversible continuations would be neat
22:37:48 <Bike> possibly i've been doing too much kernel
22:37:54 <Bike> where you have a tree of continuations
22:37:59 <kmc> like, iou can co back in time and also start running backwards
22:37:59 <shachaf> what kind of 'mountain view advice'
22:38:02 <rapido> kmc: that's exactly it
22:38:05 <kmc> shachaf: any tipe
22:38:14 <kmc> rapido: veri cool idea
22:38:42 <Bike> i think lipograms are more fun if one tries to avoid the letter while using actual words
22:38:57 <rapido> kmc: of course, making it efficient is the hard part!
22:39:11 <Bike> efficient esolangs, what you say
22:39:23 <kmc> usualli the hard part
22:39:43 <Bike> wait i fucked up
22:39:51 <shachaf> you've been to mountain view before right
22:39:52 <Bike> god it's been forever since i wrote in lipograms
22:40:06 <shachaf> oh yes you ate ramen at maru ichi
22:40:17 <kmc> were iou there
22:40:20 <kmc> don't think so
22:40:32 <rapido> anyway, i've pretty much finished the design of the spread language. see: http://oercode.blogspot.nl/2013/04/what-kind-of-programming-language-is.html
22:40:35 <kmc> it was me and cathy and mjrosenb and gwillen
22:40:50 <rapido> spread is also not turing-complete, but i'm not sure
22:41:08 <shachaf> no, but you asked me about ramen places in sf or something
22:41:13 <olsner> those crypto challenges looked interesting until I realized it would require some sort of action on my part
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22:44:23 <rapido> i'm still contemplating a powerful (prolog like) unification algorithm
22:45:37 <rapido> which also may unify over traces. This will allow you to go back in time and unify that past with the present ;)
22:45:40 <elliott> kmc: iou worked at ipwn?? (blame shachaf)
22:45:49 <lambdabot> cmccann says: some people blame themselves, some people blame the language, but the people who really know what they're doing blame shachaf.
22:46:03 <Fiora> shachaf: it's your fault :<
22:46:06 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:46:23 <shachaf> What did I do this time, huh?
22:47:00 <Fiora> the bot told me to blame you!
22:47:03 <kmc> elliott: if bi 'worked at' iou mean 'saw them once in person, did some remote work, never got paid, and now the compani doesn't exist because their plan was ridiculous'
22:47:20 <elliott> kmc: i onli asked because <shachaf> haskell/10.08.04:00:53:22 <kmc> maybe you can convince iPwn Studios (my employer) that there's a big Maemo games market
22:47:32 <elliott> i hear ipwn actualli still exists somehow
22:47:40 <elliott> and thei're just like on hiatus or something??
22:47:55 <kmc> are thei secretli a front for the CIA to fund programming languages research
22:48:39 <elliott> imo what's with people not paing other people
22:49:30 <kmc> it's too bad that ipwn was held up as an example of haskell being 'useful' and now thei have failed in the most predictable / stereotipical wai
22:52:34 <kmc> it demonstrates mi usual pt about haskell i think
22:52:45 <kmc> but for most ppl it demonstrates 'haskell sux'
22:52:59 <Fiora> is kmc swapping y's for i's?
22:53:38 <Fiora> okai, I'll tri doing that too!
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22:54:06 <shachaf> can we avoid the antepenultimate letter too
22:54:11 <shachaf> that's a much better word imo
22:54:28 <Fiora> ... antepenultimate?
22:54:29 <kmc> iou can pri mi x from mi cold dead bodi
22:54:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:55:07 <shachaf> imo ante- is a pretty good prefix
22:55:47 <shachaf> There was silence supreme! Not a shriek, not a scream, / Scarcely even a howl or a groan, / As the man they call’d “Ho!” told his story of woe / In an antediluvian tone.
22:56:30 <shachaf> That's what I get for copying it from some random irreputable Internet source.
22:56:38 <Bike> boring. boring
22:57:20 <shachaf> Bike: imo would you stop being so self-centered, talk about someone else for once, hth
22:58:17 <kmc> i probabli have to update mi linkedin now :( :(
22:58:30 <Bike> do people use linkedin
22:58:40 <shachaf> sometimes recruiters email me on linkedin
22:58:45 <shachaf> "i don't know how they find me"
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22:59:10 <elliott> kmc: i should update mi linkedin
22:59:45 <Bike> i thought linkedin was something people get spammed with and no people used
22:59:51 <shachaf> Hey, my → and End keys don't work.
23:00:09 <Bike> perhaps i should write an irssi plugin to help with lipograms.
23:01:13 <olsner> shachaf: you can just write those as "->" or three letters "End" instead
23:01:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:01:55 <kmc> Bike: basicalli but people mai look me up and it should at least have up to date information
23:02:48 <shachaf> oh boy kmc "is gonna do it isn't he"
23:03:20 <shachaf> move to sf and/or something else
23:03:28 <elliott> kmc: please visit hexham, goddamn
23:03:36 <elliott> while iou're still free and jobless
23:04:19 <Phantom__Hoover> new up and coming centre of esolang research and development
23:04:23 <kmc> i did visit finland
23:04:26 <kmc> but i should go back
23:04:37 <shachaf> it's surely better than hexham
23:04:42 <shachaf> also elliott should visit america??
23:04:50 <kmc> i wasn't there veri long and i spent much of the time fighting with a friend over relationship drama :'(
23:04:59 <Bike> why would elliott visit america
23:05:02 <Bike> oh god dammit.
23:05:06 <kmc> it was sad
23:05:10 <Bike> i swear i'll get this right at some point.
23:05:24 <shachaf> Bike: want a keyboard layout to help
23:05:39 <olsner> it was finland, of course it was sad
23:06:04 <kmc> no finland was happi
23:06:10 <kmc> friend /me was sad
23:06:40 <kmc> shachaf: how will i ever get a job in sf if i cant juggle chainsaws or wristle alegators
23:06:58 <shachaf> wristle? Aren't you taking it a bit far now?
23:07:42 <shachaf> imo most jobs in sf don't require that
23:08:17 <shachaf> you just have to juggle cats and wrıstle bears
23:08:29 <kmc> i was once perusing copis of the caltech student newspaper from the nineties and found that mani were hard to read due to orthographic fads such as this i-dropping we find ourselves in the midst of
23:08:58 <kmc> the letter 't' was banned at one point due to feud with organizations called 'The Big T' and "the little t"
23:09:15 <shachaf> elliott: Is your shift key also broken?
23:10:02 <shachaf> don't they call him Flat Guy in .uk
23:10:57 <olsner> juggling cats seems harder than juggling chainsaws
23:11:13 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: it's good although calling it a 'sitcom' might be misleading
23:11:42 <shachaf> kmc: When reading Core, pass -dsuppress-all to GHC to make the output much more readable.
23:11:49 <kmc> it's serialized and has a lot of dramatic / character-building elements that don't have any laughs
23:12:10 <kmc> and then thei'l get some amazing joke that onli works because iou know the characters
23:12:37 <kmc> it's not like say seinfeld where jerri dates a different girl everi week and there's some conflict that is established and resolved in 22 minutes
23:12:48 <shachaf> "any laughs" you might as well give up now hth
23:12:57 <kmc> im failure
23:13:02 <Bike> "seinfeld for smart people"
23:13:17 <lambdabot> ninegrid says: the "type providers" in conjunction with other language features, like units of measure and `these kinds of identifiers that can be specified as such` give it an edge in turning simi-
23:13:18 <lambdabot> structured remote data accessible from cloud services into strongly typed local data with intellisense
23:13:26 <HackEgo> 320) <ZOMGMODULES> I can trust elliott_ to have an opinion on anything and everything <elliott_> Yes. <elliott_> And the best thing is: it is the correct opinion.
23:13:37 <kmc> it is a bit like seinfeld in that the main characters have it pretti good and are alwais whining about small stuff and lack self awareness
23:13:42 <kmc> but in a more simpathetic wai
23:13:48 <kmc> also a lot more nuditi
23:14:01 <Bike> "seinfeld with more penises"
23:14:08 <Bike> call me, whoever markets this
23:14:28 -!- Phantom__Hoover has set topic: avoiding the ultimate letter of the English alphabet in solidariti with elliott | a hipothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | Join the revolt against the regime and support trikes! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:14:46 <shachaf> help what did you just change
23:14:46 <kmc> Bike: edit the shrinkage episode to include extra 5 min footage of jason alexanders flaccid penis
23:15:15 <kmc> HBO shows tend to have more T&A than dongs ime
23:15:24 <kmc> but dongs are not unheard-of
23:15:39 <Bike> sure but "tits" seemed a bit ridiculous
23:15:48 * Bike on the lookout for descenders, now
23:15:58 <kmc> the descender wars
23:15:59 <pikhq> I vote we just do the opposite of the "þ->y" swap.
23:16:18 <shachaf> imo pikhq gives good advice
23:16:27 <pikhq> Þou see, "þ" looks a lot like "y" if þou write it out.
23:16:58 <pikhq> Also, it lets þou write "mþth".
23:17:02 -!- shachaf has set topic: avoiding the penultimate letter of the English alphabet in solidarity with elliott | a hippothetical anarcho-capitalist world of bikes | Join the revolt against the regime and support unikes! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:17:42 <shachaf> did you know every tricycle is a bicycle
23:19:19 <shachaf> antediluvian may be the best word?
23:20:27 <olsner> cool, I guessed/remembered the meaning of antediluvian correctli
23:20:43 <olsner> andidiluvian sounds like a more useful idea though
23:21:44 <Bike> antependiluvian
23:22:04 <shachaf> Bike stop not making sense or we'll be forced to remove you from irc
23:24:52 <olsner> if you had to make sense to be on IRC this channel should be empty
23:25:44 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:25:59 <shachaf> the one about making sense
23:26:16 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:26:23 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
23:26:28 <Bike> so kicked, i am
23:26:33 <Fiora> this channel is confusing
23:26:45 <Fiora> but it's probably not your fault...
23:26:57 <shachaf> is that a singular you or plural you
23:27:05 <Bike> indeed it is certain to be mine
23:28:57 <shachaf> kmc: should i do a working thing or a university thing or something else
23:29:26 <kmc> you don't have any uni degree do you
23:29:33 <kmc> could you finish that in a year or two?
23:29:48 <kmc> i don't know
23:29:52 <kmc> you should figure out though
23:29:55 <shachaf> i haven't even started it if that's what you mean
23:29:59 <kmc> i thought you had
23:30:05 <shachaf> but edwardk did the whole thing in a year so maybe i could
23:30:14 <kmc> edwardk is an... abnormal person
23:30:20 <Bike> he did school in twelve months??
23:30:22 <kmc> i mean that in a good way :)
23:30:25 <Bike> is that even allowed
23:30:35 <elliott> he got more than one degree in twelve months i think
23:30:39 <shachaf> Bike: he had to go to some extreme measures
23:30:52 <shachaf> then he got his master's thing in half a year and then he got some other things
23:30:57 <Fiora> that reminds me of someone I remember hearing about who did a biochem/physics double major
23:31:00 <Fiora> and called it a "science major"
23:31:18 <Bike> so edwardk is fucking nuts, is what i'm hearing
23:31:35 <elliott> well he was also like old at the time
23:31:46 <elliott> bi old i mean he had alreadi worked in The Industri and stuff?
23:32:00 <Bike> elliott's idea of old
23:32:02 <elliott> but i mean not entering uni at 18 and then getting five billion degrees in a month
23:32:13 <Bike> right that's what i was thinking
23:32:25 <shachaf> wasn't he in his 30s or something
23:32:37 <elliott> i don't even know how old he is now!
23:33:02 <elliott> maibe we will find out when he dies from exhaustion
23:34:55 <shachaf> kmc: so given that i haven't even started what should i do
23:35:18 <Bike> go to college. get swole
23:35:54 <elliott> i would also like life advice from kmc
23:36:44 <kmc> shachaf: do iou have ani particular goals
23:37:11 <Fiora> kmc I've graduated and was blessed with the luck of a job oh god what do I do next
23:37:12 <shachaf> well that's one of the things i want to figure out
23:37:26 <shachaf> you're just the right sort of person for it
23:37:28 <pikhq> Goals are overrated. Everþthing is void of meaning! </nihilism>
23:37:33 <kmc> Fiora: continue having a job? i dunno
23:38:32 <olsner> hmm, going postal is a fairly recently coined phrase, isn't it?
23:38:39 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal
23:38:48 <kmc> i'm not veri ambitious, i know how to do some things that are fun and veri useful to the world, i would like to keep doing them and help people either directli or bi giving monei awai, but i don't have ani grand goals to change mi position in life as it's alreadi p. good
23:38:48 <Phantom__Hoover> (going postal is actually called that because a bunch of post office workers randomly shot up their workplaces in the 90s, this is apparently A True Fact)
23:39:12 <shachaf> it's also the name of a book by T.D.J. Pratchett
23:39:14 <Bike> it was a joke in MIB, man
23:40:05 <kmc> shachaf: if iou don't have a specific goal of getting iour degree then i would sai, see first if iou can get a job iou like without the degree, and if it seems difficult then consider school
23:41:06 <elliott> kmc: where is mi life advice
23:41:33 <kmc> there are mani social benefits of college too though
23:41:36 <Phantom__Hoover> although at present i suspect it all boils down to 'revise'
23:41:49 <kmc> i cant give life advice to everyone :(
23:41:52 <elliott> fuck iou Phantom__Hoover people who don't have their lives sorted out are talking!!!
23:41:59 <shachaf> elliott: i have an exclusive deal with kmc
23:42:12 <Bike> so glad i got a life plan set
23:42:16 <Bike> 'die in grad school'
23:42:26 <shachaf> should i go to grad school
23:42:34 <kmc> also lets be clear that ioure taking life advice from someone who got fired and is considering moving to sf for several reasons one of which is that it's easier to bui weed there
23:42:56 <elliott> that sounds pretti close to role model material for me tbh
23:43:01 <Bike> kmc, actual life guru
23:43:15 <kmc> certified life coach
23:43:28 <kmc> this would be funnier if iou've seen peep show
23:43:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: what are iou impliing!!
23:44:19 <Phantom__Hoover> also, worrying social experience of the day: being told that i am 'stabby creepy', in comparison to an associate who was 'rapey creepy'
23:44:26 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: D:
23:44:38 <kmc> shachaf: what about Fucking, Belgium
23:44:47 <elliott> i think probabli the #1 reason i have never tried weed is that i have no friends
23:44:53 <elliott> is that what iou were impliing Phantom__Hoover!!
23:45:02 <kmc> elliott: iou can visit me in sf
23:45:14 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: what functors
23:45:26 <elliott> kmc: isn't sf kind of scari
23:45:27 <Phantom__Hoover> at the time my mother was sitting across the road in a car so it was not really an option
23:45:50 <elliott> things sf has: startups; probabli hipsters of some description???; kmc (SCARIEST OF ThEm ALL)
23:46:02 <kmc> elliott: everyone with socioeconomic status between 'homeless crackhead' and 'google software engineer' has been driven out of the city
23:46:08 <olsner> elliott: why is kmc scary?
23:46:20 <shachaf> imo my friend tried to get me to 'smoke a fat bowl' with her but i turned it down, what does that make me
23:46:41 <elliott> kmc: so does that mean it's just people below homeless crackhead or just people above google software engineer
23:46:47 <Bike> kmc: that sounds frightening
23:46:59 <elliott> sonuds like a healthi place
23:47:09 <elliott> whi does un alwais become nu
23:47:14 <elliott> what the fuck is happening to mi keiboard
23:47:39 <Bike> elliott comes to the slow realization that he's beginning to write in swedish
23:47:50 <elliott> Bike: no stop Phantom__Hoover will give up on me
23:48:01 <kmc> we could 'hang out'
23:48:37 <elliott> how mani wales big is california
23:48:53 <kmc> sf is in the part of california which is 60°F all the time instead of 75°F
23:48:56 <elliott> could terrorise both monqi and kmc on the same trip!!!
23:48:59 <kmc> it's a trap for tourists
23:49:34 <elliott> probabli monqi is in the latter part?? i hear it's too hot there
23:49:39 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: holi shit that's a lot of wales
23:49:40 <shachaf> guess what, it's 28° in palo alto right now
23:49:49 <Bike> haha does mnoqy live in the inland empire or something
23:49:59 <shachaf> on thursday it'll be 34° some of the time according to google :☹(
23:50:37 <elliott> Bike: uh idk what conuts as inland empire
23:50:45 <kmc> http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/27499971.html i think 'sold his crackpipe to buy crack' should be a new folksi saing for short-sighted economic behavior
23:51:01 <Bike> elliott: the lynch film
23:52:36 <shachaf> hey i was at mulholland drive once
23:52:42 <olsner> I wonder if the phrase going postal caused more people to go postal in post offices
23:53:53 <Sgeo> 'You cannot compare a Mac and pc on paper...pcs only utilize 50-75% of their hardware...macs utilize every but of the machine which is why you have almost no corruption of software and almost rarely have to upgrade a Mac...point is you can get "lower" on paper specs on a Mac and get twice the performance and life span...I was a technician for the company so if you have more detailed questions let me know'
23:53:53 <shachaf> i didn't see any when i was there, but maybe
23:53:59 <shachaf> (i didn't see anyone. i was there at night)
23:54:14 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: uhhuh
23:54:25 <Sgeo> 'Don't worry about hardware in that sense..the answer is yes to all...the only difference hardware will provide you is longevity...if you upgrade hardware it will last longer, that is it...everything will run to a great level of performance whatever spec requirements you see on a box just cut it in half for a Mac...you can cut your background processes to use less than 10% of you hardware...pc will always use more than 20% just because it's a
23:54:44 <Bike> .........................................................................................
23:57:55 <kmc> lolol, companies in the Stack Overflow jobs database are rated on the 12-point "Joel Test"
23:58:40 <kmc> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html cutting edge stuff like 'uses source control' and 'has a bug tracker'
23:59:11 <kmc> sadli it mai not be universal in the real world