00:07:06 PH, you're not going to stab me! 00:07:32 http://i.imgur.com/PCfvIcv.jpg I have her to protect me 00:08:11 s/fall/for/, btw 00:09:30 also, cushions are notoriously vulnerable to overpenetration 00:09:43 You might be able to make your IRC client to not display the colors, if you want 00:09:54 * Fiora will go back to normal now 00:12:20 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:12:30 -!- carado has joined. 00:26:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:27:14 hi Lymia 00:27:22 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html 00:27:31 finally, a solution to the problem of wales 00:29:59 `addquote http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html finally, a solution to the problem of wales 00:30:03 987) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html finally, a solution to the problem of wales 00:32:33 -!- Bike_ has joined. 00:32:55 -!- Bike__ has joined. 00:34:01 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services). 00:34:03 -!- Bike__ has changed nick to Bike. 00:37:18 -!- Bike_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:37:46 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:54:52 -!- augur has joined. 00:56:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:05:59 -!- sandy2 has joined. 01:06:24 -!- sandy2 has left. 01:25:29 -!- augur has joined. 01:29:44 Phantom_Hoover: fuck 01:30:11 it's what we all feared, a spider that cannot be burned 01:31:11 haha yep 01:31:18 no recourse to "kill it with fire" 01:31:33 it's ok just use water instead 01:31:34 ooh ooh what did i miss 01:32:04 `quote problem of wales 01:32:07 987) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/large-asbestoscontaminated-tarantula-on-the-loose-in-cardiff-8544532.html finally, a solution to the problem of wales 01:36:15 convenient 02:02:31 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 02:15:16 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:16:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:16:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:16:54 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:34:58 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:35:57 -!- augur has joined. 03:00:43 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:01:03 -!- oklopol has joined. 03:08:55 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:09:05 -!- heroux has joined. 03:20:30 -!- impomatic has left. 03:35:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:53:18 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:53:19 -!- DH____ has joined. 04:06:40 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:11:23 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 04:15:19 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:20:26 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:29:47 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:40:54 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:51:37 If it weren't for lack of 3d gaming, I would use this http://qubes-os.org/trac/wiki/QubesScreenshots 04:58:12 oh, neat 05:01:03 seems like good defense in depth, although not perfect 05:01:17 VM breakout exploits are not super rare 05:01:24 especially if you are letting random devices through 05:02:29 Since it uses Xen, I wonder if it would be difficult to configure VGA passthru for this 05:04:06 does Xen not support it? they mention VT-d on that page I thought 05:04:21 anyway their isolation UI depends on not giving any VM unrestricted access to the video hw 05:04:40 if you do that, breakouts become a lot easier 05:04:47 Xen supports passthru, Qubes doesn't 05:04:48 because video cards and drivers are enormously complicated 05:04:49 Hmm, good point 05:04:59 this is why I'm scared of WebGL 05:05:12 I like that kind of idea, having the different program in different VM 05:05:22 I want to play my 3d games :( 05:05:29 It's my entire reason for even caring about Windows 05:05:30 i wish our operating systems just fucking worked and then we wouldn't need to slap another layer on 05:05:42 Sgeo: you could dual boot 05:05:49 and use an encrypted Linux disk so that Windows malware can't mess with it 05:05:52 if you are really worried 05:05:57 it could still do more devious things though 05:06:18 Use hardware security features which have switches to lock access to drives 05:06:29 the other problem with passthrough is, your game could pretend to exit but actually display a full screen simulation of the trusted qubes interface 05:06:36 I want to play my 3d Windows games while on IRC and doing Linuxy stuff 05:06:38 zzo38: heh. or unplug the damn thing :) 05:06:43 Sgeo: or you could buy an xbox 05:07:04 I don't think XBoxes support Active Worlds and Second Life and Docking Station 05:07:09 makes life a lot easier to have the magical game box which is always up to spec and doesn't need constant care and feeding 05:07:10 Although Docking Station isn't 3d 05:07:12 but ok 05:07:15 if the games you need aren't supported 05:07:17 kmc: Yes, you can unplug it, you can have separate drives 05:08:03 Windows malware could still reflash your BIOS or your network card's PCI option ROM to take control 05:08:15 If the game pretends to exit and does that, well, that is another reason to use hardware security support; have LEDs and switches and that stuff to control the security features, which is much more security. 05:08:28 or simulate a reboot but actually boot the entire trusted environment inside nested virtualization which it controls 05:08:34 Using this hardware stuff can even prevent Windows malware from reflashing the BIOS and that stuff! 05:08:38 kmc, I could rely on security through obscurity to some extent, it's unlikely that there's any malware that would take a lucky guess that I'm running a modified Qubes OS 05:08:45 yep 05:08:50 And guess as to what domains I have, etc. 05:08:54 it's fantastically unlikely that anyone will mount such an attack 05:09:05 That is why, security by hardware. 05:09:10 another problem with the encrypted linux drive is that you typically have an unencrypted boot partition 05:09:16 but you can put that on removable media easily enough 05:10:03 i do that with my servers 05:10:13 The big problem with modifying Qubes OS is... I don't know much about Xen, and trying to reconfigure preconfigured Xen will be even more difficult probably 05:10:56 what do you want to modify? 05:11:24 The complicated and stupid design of computer really causes security problems as well as various other problems too. Even with USB, it can be a problem. (I have suggested a patch to Linux to fix this hole; only on this channel, though, not on Linux.) 05:12:32 kmc, allowing and actually performing VGA passthru 05:12:40 ok 05:14:09 I could just run raw Xen I assume? 05:15:26 The patch I suggested was this: If there is PS/2 keyboard, do not accept USB keyboard by default (although it can still be configured to allow in specific cases, possibly one of the SysRq commands); if there is no PS/2 keyboard, use the USB keyboard available at boot time instead of others (again, can be reconfigured by the user). 05:15:31 I should probably choose a card that Xen supports 05:16:00 But this is really a problem with USB, not with Linux; however, it is possible to fix it by software in these ways, nevertheless. 05:16:12 zzo38, a guy showed me this USB stick he had that pretends to be a keyboard and does stuff. Your suggestions would presumably prevent that 05:16:39 did you see http://www.demyo.com/products/demyo-power-strip/ 05:16:40 Sgeo: Yes, I read that too; however, my thoughts about this were before those things existed. 05:17:06 one thing I read about PS/2 keyboards is that they leak a lot of data onto the power supply line and the building power wiring 05:17:10 for whatever reason 05:17:34 The new computer I make it will be: security by simplicity. 05:17:39 kmc: What if there is a UPS? 05:17:51 probably not then? 05:17:52 dunno 05:18:55 Do ATI graphics work better with Linux than they used to? 05:19:57 dunno, i have been using nvidia and intel since forever 05:23:54 http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/XenVGAPassthroughTestedAdapters 05:24:01 This does seem to suggest that ATI works better 05:24:33 i think if i really cared about security i would just buy a second computer 05:24:36 and use it for secure shit 05:24:43 or use my old laptop that already exists 05:25:22 virtualization is cool and all but it's still this huge pile of complexity 05:25:24 It's not just security though 05:25:51 It's also using Windows for certain kinds of recreation while, say, using KDE's niceties for most things 05:26:07 kernels are insecure because they're giant C programs, so let's give up on all the properties they were supposed to provide, while replacing them with other giant C programs 05:26:20 but these are more secure because they haven't been around as long and fewer bugs are known! 05:26:23 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:26:38 Sgeo: sure, you can do that within a very standard Linux distro though 05:26:42 It's also about having fun with different distros to their fullest complexity, without ever disconnecting from all the other things I was doing 05:26:43 using qemu-kvm say 05:27:00 kmc, ok. Still need VGA pass-thru for 3d games? 05:27:41 don't know anything about that 05:27:48 kmc: you know about stuff like that eros OS project right? does it not suck? 05:27:54 i don't know about eros OS 05:29:22 -!- augur has joined. 05:29:35 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 05:29:47 http://www.eros-os.org/eros.html 05:30:02 Hmm. I wonder if, if I use Windows as a base OS and just virtualize Linux, if some virtualization things allow some sort of keyboard passthru so I could type in Linux without much risk of interception 05:31:36 EROS looks dead 05:31:44 It is dead. 05:32:06 :( 05:32:33 The front page, which I didn't bother linking, says basically "this is dead, see Coyotos" and links to that. 05:35:29 oh 05:39:15 Coyotos looks dead too 05:39:37 Everybody's dead. 05:40:32 Oh they're the people behind BitC? 05:44:55 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 05:53:17 I.. think XenClient might just support 3d gaming without any difficulties? I don't know 05:54:30 Yeah, I see someone complaining about being able to do 3d stuff with only one VM at a time 05:54:34 I don't really mind that 05:54:59 I hope this means people are trying to play shooters twice at once. 05:57:26 It occurs to me a major drawback of XenClient might be being unable to run VirtualBox inside the guest OSes 06:00:00 kmc: Everyone knows it's adding security, it's more code! 06:00:10 More code is more secure donchano 06:00:13 Well, you might still be able to run Bochs inside the guest OSes, though? 06:00:32 I'd be impressed if you got Bochs to not run. 06:00:50 Sgeo: VirtualBox should run, though probably not as fast. 06:01:09 VirtualBox works just fine without hardware virtualization. 06:01:28 Hm 06:02:37 Do you not want security through simplicity? 06:02:45 Blah, why can't a hypervisor being run under VT-x use VT-x itself? Does VT-x extensions not apply to VT-x extensions? 06:03:01 zzo38: That is what I actually prefer. 06:03:10 zzo38: Obviously no bugs, rather than no obvious bugs. 06:03:32 pikhq_: Yes. I prefer too 06:03:33 pritn "Hello, world!" 06:04:23 Hmm, seems VT-x is set up such that a hypervisor using it *could* emulate VT-x. 06:05:19 VirtualBox does not seem to implement it though. 06:07:12 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:08:34 -!- heroux has joined. 06:09:40 Wait, VirtualBox does not implement sanely being under another VT-x hypervisor, or does not implement being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x? 06:15:31 Does not implement being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x. 06:16:42 what about that thing where some virtual machines use ring 1 for the internal OS and ring0 for the real OS? 06:16:48 that'd prevent a VM inside a VM too, right? 06:17:08 That's how Xen does its paravirtualization. 06:17:24 Note that the ring 1 OS is written to run under the ring 0 OS. 06:17:26 Specifically. 06:17:35 ahhhh 06:17:46 VT-x does not run that way. 06:18:11 I want to run a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM inside a VM, for only the reason that I want the VM to be compatible with the host system or with a different kind of host system too. 06:18:14 Instead it's basically hacking the Popek and Golberg requirements onto x86. 06:18:16 we need aleph-0 rings for all my minecraft-in-minecraft, imo 06:19:49 Bike: I have thought of something like that too (but not with Minecraft), and where each program calls its own ring, zero. 06:20:19 But it is difficult. 06:23:34 pikhq_, does Xen full virtualizatio support being a hypervisor under which other hypervisors can use VT-x? 06:23:49 And which does XenClient use? >.> 06:25:13 Isn't it a contradiction that there's seven days a week, but only five or six weekdays? 06:25:15 Sgeo: I don't know if Xen supports it or not. 06:25:41 fizzie: No, it is a stupid language. 06:25:55 fizzie, is that like driving in a parkway and parking in a driveway? 06:26:03 (That joke is how I learned what a parkway is) 06:27:42 Err, this page seems to imply that the 3d thing is a XenClient XT thing 06:35:37 ooh https://github.com/GaloisInc/HaLVM 06:37:52 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:38:55 -!- Bike has joined. 06:42:35 How many people think the rule that a aura that is also a creature is discarded, is a bad rule? 06:42:49 What is an aura? 06:43:24 Hmm http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/336186-33-full-gaming-virtual-machine 06:43:50 shachaf: A subtype of an enchantment, in Magic: the Gathering cards. (Also called a "local enchantment") 06:47:13 There are some other rules I don't like, too, some others of which are also state-based effects. I think losing due to being unable to draw a card should be immediate rather than a state-based effect, and that a token ceasing to exist when not in play should be inherent in its "initial state" rather than being a state-based effect. 06:47:48 I also think that copies of spells should count as tokens. 06:48:26 I think there are too many klugy rules; I would rather it be mathematically elegant. 06:48:44 What do you think of this? 06:50:13 I think it's funny that the guy who originally developed Magic was a student of that one combinatorialist. 06:50:20 Also that MtG seems to work by common law which is kinda great. 06:51:08 I prefer games that work by C'mon Law. 06:51:42 That's where you whine until the rules change, right? 06:52:10 I like some of the rule changes but many I don't like. 06:53:34 I also think that mana burn has a strategic purpose and would like to keep it. I also like that the remove from game zone has been changed now it is called exile zone; "removed from game" zone isn't a very good name for it. 06:54:23 However, they didn't change it enough. I would have called the "graveyard" instead the "discard zone" and the "library" instead the "draw pile zone" or "draw zone" 06:54:59 However, those names as not as bad as "removed from game", so it isn't as much of the problem. 06:56:06 What is your opinion about my suggestion about tokens and "initial state"? 06:56:19 zzo38: http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74231 06:57:24 Bike: I have seen that before. 06:58:04 Basically, what I mean is that, if it were a Haskell function type to move an object from one zone to another, instead of moveToZone :: Object -> Zone -> Game Object will be moveToZone :: Object -> Zone -> Game (Maybe Object) 06:59:08 Does that explain it better, or worse? 07:07:57 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:08:11 -!- Bike has joined. 07:08:20 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:08:46 I suppose it might be a different game. 07:11:05 It would be the mathematical version of Magic: the Gathering cards, I suppose, in case you value mathematical elegance over sanity, or something like that. 07:14:48 Do you like this? 07:15:03 -!- Bike_ has joined. 07:15:46 -!- FreeFull has quit. 07:17:26 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 07:19:54 Do you know of any existing cards that would have a significant change of use if losing by unable to draw a card is made immediate? 07:20:06 Or a combination of cards? 07:20:38 -!- Bike_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:24:26 TMI time: 07:24:54 I think a lot of the reason I haven't had 'fun' before 2011 was a result of utter sexual obliviousness 07:25:50 oh no it's sgeo tells us about his sexual adventures time 07:27:17 My prior sentence was really the only thing I desired to say about the subject now. 07:27:36 Although the topic in general is not one I feel particularly reluctant to discuss 07:27:50 does there exist a topic you feel reluctant to discuss 07:27:53 Yes 07:34:54 That's probably rutabagas. 07:39:09 I hear that's illegal under the DMCA now. 07:40:54 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:41:54 What does "TMI" mean? 07:42:17 Are you reluctant to say what topics you feel reluctant to discuss? 07:42:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:43:07 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:49:23 zzo38, "TMI" means "Too Much Information". And yes. 07:49:43 OK 07:59:55 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:00:28 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:10:55 zzo38: Are you Vulcan? 08:12:55 Lumpio-: No. 08:13:28 ok 08:14:09 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 08:25:39 Is this some kind of sex discussion channel nowadays? (Or was it always?) 08:27:11 Deewiant: Not just any sex, esoteric sex. 08:27:37 Hmm, if I understand Xen properly, I could effectively use it just like VirtualBox except I need the started OS to technically be Xen 08:27:52 But it would feel like my base OS is a Linux distro, the dom0 08:29:17 The dom0 is still under the Xen hypervisor, technically. 08:29:18 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:30:10 Yes, but in terms of using it, the UI would feel like it isn't 08:30:53 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 08:37:54 Famicom keyboard seem to be that the shifted codes are the XOR 16 of ASCII codes of each keys. 08:39:41 -!- fungot has joined. 08:39:49 fungot: You used to run in a Xen domU back before they dropped support for non-PAE systems, right? Did it feel any different? 08:39:49 fizzie: and allows fun obfuscation you can do it with 08:39:55 (Or maybe that was before your time.) 08:44:21 Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only punctuation? 08:46:04 is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM punctuation 08:47:01 If you mean :: then yes it is OK. However, I mean specifically ASCII punctuation, so that is OK. 08:50:37 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 08:54:32 O! I managed to score the exact same number of points in today's basketball game as in yesterday's game. 09:04:17 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 09:08:15 Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only the ASCII punctuation codes (no letter, number, control, non-ASCII), please? 09:19:26 -!- zzo38 has left. 09:19:28 -!- zzo38 has joined. 09:24:32 zzo38: There's a trivial solution of (!-"")+(!-"")+...+(!-"") except with 42 of the (!-"") terms in it. It can probably be shortened a lot. 09:24:55 (Even by using that single building block, by doing it as 6*7.) 09:25:32 And in fact you don't need the - either, (!"") is okay as the number 1. 09:26:50 It can be done shorter, but yes that is one way, at least. 09:27:03 $ echo -e '\n' > tmp.php; php5 tmp.php 09:27:07 42 09:27:53 Well, and of course there's also the plain 09:27:53 $ echo -e '\n' > tmp.php; php5 tmp.php 09:27:57 42 09:28:16 Yes, but still, there is shorter way. Those are a few ways, though. 09:28:21 Er. 09:28:32 I seem to have found a gearlance crash 09:28:35 ()*-1 09:28:37 Oh, I'm sure there's something very clever. 09:28:47 I wonder if there is any shorter than what I have? 09:29:30 Lymia: It works for me: http://sprunge.us/UALQ 09:32:13 It seems you have 39 characters to make 42, which is shorter from what you had before, at least ! 09:32:38 fizzie, http://paste.strictfp.com/37078/ac1fa492561ed0da0a5da3066b4a5cb7 09:32:50 This seems to hang the evaluator 09:33:02 I was *just* about to comment on that. 09:33:10 I had written this: It is interpreted rather inefficiently, though, so maybe there's potential for a denial-of-service kind of thing there, with a suitably nested ((()*-1 ()*-1 ()*-1)*-1 ... )*-1 thing. (Please don't do that to the bot.) 09:33:48 Since the ()-loops don't take any cycles, but will still have to be counted down; it doesn't check whether there's any content inside that takes cycles. 09:34:13 So. 09:34:17 Would forbidding ()*-1 fix it? 09:34:31 Though with all those ...s in there -- is that the literal program? -- it should just hit the cycle limit at least reasonably fast. 09:34:39 That is the literal program, yeah. 09:35:20 Maybe doing approximately 10k rounds of something that contains a countdown loop of 100k just does take long, then. 09:36:24 ... 09:36:25 Well, er. 09:36:34 The cycle limit is 10000, right? 09:36:39 No, 100000. 09:36:58 (..........()*-1.....) 09:37:00 That's 15 .s 09:37:12 Yes, 10000 was an approximation of 100000/15. 09:37:13 Giving (100000/15)*100000 09:37:16 Not a particularly good one. 09:37:24 -!- impomatic has joined. 09:38:03 Pruning out ()s that have no content that takes ticks should fix that. 09:38:13 Yeah. 09:38:25 I was just going "wtf, why isn't this generation taking so long" 09:38:29 why is* 09:38:35 I'll try to remember to see if I should build in such a step, since Bad Things might happen if someone submits a program like that. 09:38:46 fizzie: Now see if you can do with less than 39 characters. 09:39:09 After that, see if if it possible to do with less than 12 characters. 09:40:22 evo-169-129.bfjoust:.....-...,:cut crash:,..>< 09:40:22 evo-169-156.bfjoust:-<><->+....,:cut crash:,.> 09:40:22 evo-86-159.bfjoust:..........(..........(..........(..........(..........,:cut crash:,.....)*-1.....)*-1.....)*-1.....)*-1..... 09:40:23 geez... 09:40:30 This is apparently not uncommon either... 09:44:44 zzo38: (!""+!""+!""+!"").(!""+!"") is 27 characters, I guess. Those parentheses were a bit useless. 09:45:53 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 09:46:26 fizzie: OK. That is still too long, though. 09:51:02 I don't think I know enough PHP to be good at this. (Plus I need to go listen to a dissertation now.) 09:51:24 What dissertation is that? 09:53:13 It's http://ics.aalto.fi/en/current/events/doctoral_defence_of_m-sc-janne_pylkkonen/ this one. 09:55:21 It's mostly about discriminative training, I believe. 10:15:32 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/24/ubuntu_amazon_suggestions/ 10:15:33 o.O 10:17:22 O.o 10:22:00 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:28:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:33:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:40:36 Shuttleworth: "Don't be mad, you trust us with root anyway" 10:41:37 "These are not ads because they are not paid placement" 10:41:41 lolbuntu 10:54:17 -!- sirdancealo2 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:55:02 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 11:15:56 Set the hill for the evolver to Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:11:28 11:16:03 Let's see what happens! 11:19:09 total failure 11:19:09 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:19:17 The old hill apparently does not parse under gearlance 11:20:11 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:20:31 Jafet, is this as bad as I think. 11:20:45 Lymia: this may have been before changing to an interpreter which bans unmatched [] inside (), i remember some programs were manually translated during the changeover 11:21:31 * Lymia shrug 11:21:33 *inside ()* 11:21:36 Found and removed the culprit 11:21:49 it was afair a simple matter of using ()% instead 11:21:58 okay 11:22:06 was it unmatched [] ? 11:22:10 impomatic's programs, both of them. 11:22:11 Yeah 11:22:25 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 11:24:29 zzo38: (!""+!""+!""+!"").(!""+!"") is 27 characters, I guess. Those parentheses were a bit useless. 11:24:47 presumably it would get shorter if you could find a shorter representation of 2? 11:25:32 What are you doing? 11:25:34 -!- elliott_ has joined. 11:25:37 -!- elliott has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:25:38 hm, does php have << ? in which case (!""<<(!""+!"")).(!""+!"") might work? 11:25:44 -!- elliott_ has changed nick to elliott. 11:25:51 What are you doing?? o~o 11:26:18 Lymia: zzo38 gave a puzzle about how to get the number 42 in php using only ASCII punctuation characters 11:26:27 Ah 11:26:38 fizzie got it down to the quote above 11:26:48 but zzo38 said there's something shorter 11:27:56 also i don't know php either, but i'm guessing ! is logical not, "" is treated as false, . is concatenation and php is well-known to convert insanely 11:28:01 $_=!""+!"";($_+$_).$_ 11:28:02 How about that 11:28:32 is that a single expression? i was assuming that was implied although maybe zzo38 didn't mean that 11:28:38 It's not 11:28:45 also it mutates. 11:28:58 does php have C's , ? 11:29:14 that might be an expression at least 11:29:28 `which php 11:29:34 No output. 11:30:04 it's ok HackEgo, i didn't really expect you to have it 11:30:55 (($_=!""+!"")+$_).$_ 11:30:57 How about that 11:31:00 hm zzo38 _may_ be implying 12 characters is enough 11:31:37 After that, see if if it possible to do with less than 12 characters. 11:32:43 Tested in a PHP interpreter 11:32:48 (($_=!""+!"")+$_).$_ == "42" 11:33:14 So does ($_=!""+!"")+$_.$_ 11:33:17 Can you make 42 in a PHP code having only the ASCII punctuation codes (no letter, number, control, non-ASCII), please? 11:33:33 i don't think that implies it has to be an expression 11:33:48 The expression is shorter anyways :p 11:36:57 yeah best i've seen so far 11:37:04 still not 12, though :P 11:39:05 the part other than the expression for 2 is already 11 chars 11:57:15 !bfjoust holycraparush? >+(-[-[-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9]>+(-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9)*9]>+(-[-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9]>+(-[-[-]]>+(-[-])*9)*9)*9)*9 11:57:28 ​Score for Lymia_holycraparush_: 3.0 11:57:35 Apparently one change is enough to encourage the evolver to produce sensible things. 11:57:40 Make empty programs commit suicide via < 12:03:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:04:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:05:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 12:05:30 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:30:52 i wish our operating systems just fucking worked and then we wouldn't need to slap another layer on 12:30:58 kmc: donations to the Write @ Fund are welcome 12:39:26 elliott: What's Write @ Fund? 12:40:00 the fund that gives me enough money to stop caring about other things and devote my energies to writing @ 12:40:28 Ah, what's @? 12:41:08 no 12:41:10 don't 12:41:10 ask 12:41:53 You know how I have a mythical Sgeolang? @ is elliottos 12:42:18 Except @ presumably has some design thoughts at least 12:42:18 i think @'s design may be considerably more concrete. 12:42:32 I'm rather new, so I don't really know the names of everybody's mythlangs yet 12:42:41 @ isn't a language 12:42:46 Phantom_Hoover: well it sort of is. 12:42:48 but only sort of. 12:42:49 Is it an OS? 12:42:55 it's also not technically an os 12:43:09 Is some magical combination of OS and language? 12:43:18 i don't remember if elliott wanted to go with ~computing environment~ or not 12:43:40 that might have been cpressey 12:47:04 elliott: so, what is @? 12:47:40 ThatOtherPerson: an English-language macro expanding to the name I'll give @ in the future 12:48:05 i preferred it when it was called mitosis 12:48:58 Also known as a code name 12:49:11 Also not the answer I was looking for -_- 12:49:11 ThatOtherPerson: no no. 12:49:13 @ isn't a name. 12:49:19 when you say @, you're saying the name I'll give @. 12:49:23 you just don't know it yet. 12:49:30 XD 12:49:43 elliott: So, what is @? 12:49:45 Phantom_Hoover: no you fool, mitosis is the name of the prototypes that will be written to aid the development of @ 12:50:01 ThatOtherPerson: it is a committed-vapourware operating environment for computers 12:50:03 ThatOtherPerson, (what @ actually is is only a little more confusing than the name situation) 12:50:13 And from what you just said, @ is not an English-language macro 12:50:36 @ is obviously a committed-vapourware operating environment for computers 12:51:21 So uh... what does @ do? 12:51:28 things 12:51:35 Ooh! I like things! 12:51:54 it doesn't enforce a separation between persistent and other memory! 12:52:01 it uh 12:52:14 has something with a garbage collector somewhere 12:55:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 12:55:19 Phantom_Hoover: hmm, what's persistent memory? 12:55:55 Oh, never mind, I found it 12:56:14 I was also assuming that _ is not punctuation. 12:56:35 So does that mean variable values can be stored to hard drive? 12:59:47 `ruby --version 12:59:49 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found 13:00:41 Did you know that ruby uses qsort to sort arrays 13:01:04 PHP does have a comma expression, FWIW. 13:01:24 And that it doesn't even use libc qsort, but ruby_qsort 13:01:49 Re ($_=!""+!"")+$_.$_, I don't know if it has a defined evaluation order. Maybe it has. (Or maybe it's again defined by implementation.) 13:13:18 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:31:45 -!- carado has joined. 13:48:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:51:52 !bfjoust generation-1200 +.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].++.(+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+)*7>+.[+.+.(+.)*7>+.[+.].+].++.+.].++. 13:51:57 ​Score for Lymia_generation-1200: 9.4 13:52:58 Population size 20, hill vs hill. :p 13:53:07 Guess it /can/ make stuff other than just vibrators 13:55:30 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:57:04 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:08:00 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:10:51 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 14:11:31 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 14:22:09 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:23:57 * ais523 attempts to get a Slashdot first post that's good enough to get modded to +5 14:23:57 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 14:24:00 @messages 14:24:00 elliott said 23h 58m 53s ago: second day in a row of french spam... 14:24:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: reboot). 14:26:31 @tell elliott the filter caught all four spambots that edited today and yesterday (see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog), but even though it's configured to automatically block, it isn't automatically blocking; is there a configuration issue in the MediaWiki extension? 14:26:32 Consider it noted. 14:28:54 @tell ais523 good question! 14:28:55 Consider it noted. 14:28:59 @messages 14:28:59 elliott said 4s ago: good question! 14:29:17 ais523: how come http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseLog/19 doesn't work, I wonder? 14:29:18 elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 14:29:30 also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/examine/log/19 14:29:38 elliott: every entry in the abuse log seems to be repeated 14:29:43 and only one of the repeats work 14:29:44 *works 14:29:50 I don't know why 14:30:10 ais523: hmm... that's not good 14:30:35 do you have any debugging suggestions? I could get around to updating MW sometime, maybe that'd help? 14:30:51 I'm not very familiar with the server side of MediaWiki, just how to use it as a user 14:31:06 btw, I wonder if we should add some more CAPTCHA questions 14:31:12 that might or might not help 14:31:15 maybe if they have to use a human enough they'll give up :) 14:32:10 ais523: btw, why'd the filter not catch http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&curid=1&diff=35732&oldid=34660? 14:32:14 because of the XHTML br tag? 14:32:30 indeed, also there's whitespace before it 14:32:35 that seemed too potentially prone to false positives 14:32:42 we should just add "Are you French?" to the signup. 14:32:47 I'm checking for just text

text because that's what the spambots are doing 14:32:47 and disallow registration if you say yes. 14:32:53 that also has the advantage of keeping French people out 14:32:57 very consistently on their own user page 14:33:09 well, the number of
s vary 14:33:14 ais523: perhaps we should check for two brs in a row 14:33:18

or

14:33:20 I think they have some sort of automated HTML generator 14:33:35 and no newlines on the page, or something 14:33:36 not really sure if I want to broaden a filter that's apparently already working 14:33:56 Send it to google translate 14:33:58 And ask it what language it is 14:34:08 ais523: well, it didn't work to catch Main Page spam 14:34:14 which is the worst kind 14:34:15 yeah it only checks userspace 14:34:20 oh 14:34:22 because the spambots are all consistently trying to edit that first 14:34:30 and it blocked a userspace edit from each of the spambots 14:34:31 oh I see, it caught the user first 14:34:34 just didn't block the spambot too 14:34:39 my idea was that it'd catch that edit, block the spambot 14:34:45 then it wouldn't have a chance to make the other edits 14:34:50 right 14:35:08 ais523: I am a bit worried that the spam will end up being in recent changes instead, with them registering and getting blocked :) 14:35:45 elliott: registration would be in recent changes; I'm not sure if abuse filter-related blocks would be, though 14:36:01 but at the point when they register, they aren't spambots :) 14:36:27 in order to prevent main page spam, I can add a canary string that causes changes to fail if it isn't in the new text of thepage 14:36:29 *the page 14:36:41 !bfjoust generation-1359 ++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+](++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+])*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<++[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<+(++(+)*7>.>-[+]<)*7>.>-[++(+)*7>.>-[+]<]<+]]<+ 14:36:42 we can either use something that's already there, or an arbitrary string in a comment 14:36:44 ​Score for Lymia_generation-1359: 7.5 14:36:55 eh, if it would have been blocked I don't care 14:37:06 ais523: and, well, I mean, we should be catching 100% of spambots at user regsitration time 14:37:09 Bah. 14:37:10 yes 14:37:11 *registration 14:37:20 Stupid EgoBot inconstant fitness function :p 14:37:34 elliott, I still vote for blocking any edits that appear to be in French. 14:37:53 unfortunately technoology has not yet advanced to the point where we can distinguish French from line noise 14:38:00 and programs that look like line noise are on topic 14:38:14 as are programs that look like French! 14:39:05 ais523: no, we /do/ have minimal standards 14:40:53 !bfjoust generation-1366 ++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++(++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<+(++(+)*7>>-[+].<)*7>>-[++(+)*7>>-[+].<].<++].<+ 14:40:56 ​Score for Lymia_generation-1366: 7.6 14:47:38 -!- im_wibblywobbly has joined. 14:48:45 -!- im_wibblywobbly has left. 14:49:00 Can somebody, lke. 14:49:01 like* 14:49:10 analyze how that actually works :p 14:49:25 Or, rather. 14:49:31 What exactly it does 14:52:59 do your own dirty work! 14:57:01 looks like it's mostly but not quite a size 1 offset clear leaving a size 9 trail on the cell before the cell it clears 14:57:09 err, order 1 offset clear 14:57:11 two-cycle 14:57:41 !bfjoust generation-1366-golfed ((+)*9>>-[+]<)*-1 14:57:44 ​Score for ais523_generation-1366-golfed: 9.7 14:57:50 !bfjoust generation-1366-golfed < 14:57:54 ​Score for ais523_generation-1366-golfed: 0.0 15:03:50 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 15:05:55 -!- nooodl has joined. 15:06:45 ais523: I'm just going to upgrade MW later 15:06:47 and hope for the best 15:12:53 ever the slacker 15:13:31 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:14:06 Ahaha! 15:14:16 Chinese graphics card problem is over! 15:14:18 (for now) 15:25:36 Also, apparently Hexham wants to be the Barcelona of the north 15:25:54 I for one am against splitting from Spain 15:42:36 yay, the phd thesis group committee people have decided that I'm doing well enough to not be thrown out of the university for another 8 months 15:43:21 i'd throw ais523 out of a university 15:43:23 you know, for fun 15:43:30 also, I've acheived my goal 15:43:41 of getting first post on a Slashdot story /and/ having it moderated up to +5 15:43:48 Taneb, i guess athens was already taken 15:43:59 (= it's an actually useful first post, rather than just a blatant "first post" post) 15:45:20 ais523: um looks like +4 to me!! 15:45:57 elliott: it's listed as 4 on my userpage because that doesn't include karma bonuses 15:46:06 but 5 on the story page because that does 15:46:28 people won't mod something up that appears to be at 5, even though it's not technically a no-op (because it's visible on the userpage) 15:47:32 I actually complained to the slashdot admins about that, in that slashdot allows a post to be at 6 and merely displays it as 5 15:47:42 but they either didn't understand or didn't care 15:58:18 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:58:47 -!- carado has joined. 16:16:25 Or they didn't understand and didn't care. 16:20:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:20:39 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:25:06 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:27:27 -!- carado has joined. 16:31:55 Taneb: that person is a troll. 16:32:13 as in 16:32:15 15:46:55 -!- zedchelon [zedchelon@ip24-251-168-64.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #haskell 16:32:18 15:47:14 Before I get started in here, I would like to point something out.. 16:32:21 15:47:15 http://www.krioma.net/articles/Bridge%20Theory/Einstein%20Rosen%20Bridge.htm <- this is just as much math as geometric polyhedra are. 16:32:24 15:48:16 I'm sorry if you are too stubbon to know the difference. 16:32:27 15:48:50 And won't admit that 50% of the axioms mathematics has been based on were proven wrong, then corrected. 16:32:30 15:49:55 And I am really sorry you tried so hard to learn mathematics, that you no longer comprhend simple English or any other language. 16:32:32 15:50:10 zedchelon: this might be the wrong channel fo ryou 16:32:35 15:50:15 I am really sorry that you get emotional and can't control it either for that matter. 16:32:38 (from /lastlog zedchelon; some lines may be omitted) 16:34:04 you can't prove an axiom wrong 16:34:08 only inconsistent with other axioms 16:34:32 thanks. 16:35:27 AXIOM X: An axiom which mentions other axioms is wrong. 16:36:27 shachaf, I think that would be better if it said references rather than mentions 16:36:29 AXIOM X: The body spray for real men. 16:41:43 ais523: also, e.g. false is a wrong axiom 16:41:50 it's inconsistent even without any other axioms 16:42:03 elliott: hmm 16:42:18 technically speaking that's more of an argument than a proof 16:42:29 * ais523 vaguely wonders if you can have a logic where false is an axiom, and true is unprovable 16:42:49 well, I guess I mean p & ~p is inconsistent 16:42:57 since you don't necessarily have principle of explosion 16:43:02 er... wait 16:43:05 paraconsistent logics have p & ~p 16:43:10 OK, never mind 16:45:17 ais523: Sure, by calling true "false" and false "true". 16:45:42 shachaf: well it'd depend on the other axioms 16:47:13 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:48:15 -!- carado has joined. 17:00:15 http://www.doxdesk.com/img/updates/20091116-so-large.gif StackOverflow in a nutshell. 17:01:03 some tags are better than others 17:01:08 though not as better as they should be :( 17:02:18 I love the "related" section on this X-D 17:02:54 "where are my legs?" 17:03:49 I love "Is there a jQuery plugin for making an HTML page appear in the browser?" 17:06:07 No, you have to do that manually. 17:07:22 Gregor: I'm having trouble working out what they meant by that question 17:08:13 like, opening a browser window containing an HTML page? changing the currently displayed page to match some HTML? writing a page that will display given HTML when it loads? (that last one is pretty easy even without jQuery) 17:08:52 Not sure if calling bluff or not getting joke X-D 17:09:54 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 17:12:16 Gregor: I know you were trying to make a joke, but I'm not sure it's warranted given the situation 17:12:30 ais523... 17:12:36 the question's worded badly enough that they may not be asking for something trivial after all 17:12:58 Right, not getting the joke, got it X-D 17:13:49 Gregor: did you forget ais523 doesn't click on links 17:14:01 oh right, does it require the link to be clicked? 17:14:04 Ohhhhhhhhh, that would be an explanation if that's the case X-D 17:14:07 because if it does, I wouldn't get it 17:14:10 Yes, it rllly dos 17:14:23 It's a joke mockup of a SO question X-D 17:14:39 as a .gif? 17:15:21 Hey, don't ask me why this person thought .gif was a good idea X-D 17:15:32 Ugh, I need to stop using ex-hyphen-dee. 17:15:43 It's becoming my new colon-p. 17:15:56 X-:DP 17:16:07 It is declared, from this day forth, I shall not use that smiley et cetera et cetera. 17:16:15 ais523: hmm, interesting new language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Abcdefq 17:16:21 elliott: "new"? 17:16:33 new to me, anyway!! 17:16:43 wtf 17:16:48 elliott: that link redirects to Gregor's link 17:16:50 somehow 17:16:59 is this a mode of Konversation brokenness I haven't yet discovered? 17:17:13 ais523: hmm, works for me now 17:17:14 retyping the link I get a blank page 17:17:20 a momentary glitch, perhaps? 17:17:23 or, rather, a nonexistent page 17:17:29 what is this sorcery 17:17:42 oklopol: I suspect it's elliott redirecting on the esolangs server :) 17:17:54 how dare you!!! that would be *highly* irresponsible of me 17:18:01 should have captured the headers while it was still up 17:18:32 I guess I'll have to reconfigure Firefox to disallow esolangs.org to redirect to third-party websites 17:19:24 ais523: that would break at least one thing 17:19:41 (http://esolangs.org/files/* links, of which there are several still on the web, IIRC) 17:19:47 aha 17:19:53 I guess I could add a prompt 17:19:58 I already have it prompt on every cookie 17:20:18 shouldn't you just add a prompt for every redirect, if you can handle that kind of torture already? 17:20:30 I was considering it 17:20:45 not sure if Firefox has an option to prompt on redirects, or if I'd have to write an extension 17:20:50 I have a feeling I know why you don't like using the web 17:20:53 the cookies thing isn't so bad because it has an always allow/always deny 17:21:10 elliott: it's not because of that; I do get annoyed by pages that try to set cookies on every keypress 17:21:14 but I'd likely get annoyed by them anyway 17:22:38 I guess alternatively I could set the browser to not load images 17:22:50 that actually seems like a reasonable idea, although it'd need a whitelist/blacklist too 17:23:11 elliott: how do you tolerate the web without whitelists/blacklists for everything? 17:23:21 note to self: I can get ais523 to do increasingly unreasonable things by messing with esolangs.org's nginx configuration 17:23:35 elliott: not if you want me to continue administering esolangs.org 17:23:49 are you threatening to quit because I set up a stupid redirect for five seconds :P 17:24:16 no, I'm threatening to quit if you do it consistently :) 17:24:30 btw, you probably /could/ have convinced me it was a Konversation bug if only there was an actual page there 17:25:02 well I didn't want to disturb a link with an actual esolang 17:25:06 or write a new esolang for the purpose 17:25:15 and I didn't actually look at the resulting redirected page for more than a couple of seconds 17:25:16 and also I suspected you'd report it 17:25:26 only if I could figure out wtf caused it 17:25:31 which would admittedly be funny, but you'd probably get mad if I later revealed the truth 17:25:44 as would the Konversation devs 17:26:00 fwiw, the colors-in-links bug was fixed the day I reported it 17:26:19 so `relcome actually lead to a concrete reduction in Konversation's bugginess 17:27:08 ais523: what's wrong with the web? 17:27:15 (apart from the lack of porn) 17:27:49 oklopol: basically the huge amount of extra stuff that's there when you're just trying to get some information 17:28:16 for one thing, unless you know the other end, you can't know whether the page you're aiming for is even going to have the information you want 17:28:25 significantly less than if you go to the library 17:28:57 I watched someone trying to search for something on Google recently; they clicked the first result (a stackoverflow link), and didn't notice the question was a different question than the one they wanted to know the answer to (and the answer to their question was in one of the non-accepted answers as an aside) 17:29:15 and there's all the HTML and images and so on that's around what you're looking for 17:29:21 and the pages aren't necessarily consistent from one view to the next 17:29:57 so when I'm using the web, either I go directly to a page which I already know is likely to have what I'm looking for 17:30:18 or I ask around beforehand to try to establish what the appropriate page is 17:30:33 what i do is i write stuff on google and in 5 seconds i have everything i need 17:30:35 this is kind-of why I'm so upset at an esolangs.org/wiki/ link not going to MediaWiki 17:30:51 because it betrays my trust that what I'll find at the other end of the link is what I'm accepting 17:30:56 it makes me consider the site unreliable 17:31:03 oklopol: google doesn't work like that 17:31:08 does 17:31:13 it gives you a page that approximately matches some of your search terms 17:31:20 which may or may not have anything to do with what you're looking for 17:31:43 how does that differ from asking a person 17:32:03 except for being much faster 17:32:13 oklopol: here's one for you: locate the most recent c-intercal release online 17:32:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:32:25 there is a fast way to solve this problem, and a slow way 17:32:45 yeah if i need something that 5 people know about and i know one of them, then yeah, google isn't the way. 17:33:06 especially because AFAIK you can't find the answer via Google unless you think of searching alt.lang.intercal 17:33:14 but if i need something that 5 people know about and i don't happen to know one of them (which happens about daily), google is the *only* solution. 17:33:42 yeah google won't tell you how thick my fingers are either. 17:33:46 goog point. 17:33:46 for most of those "I need something" requests, I'd automatically go to Wikipedia first 17:34:29 although that's generally more than "5 people know about", but that's reasonable given that if only 5 people know about something and it's not related to esolangs or nomic or NetHack variant development or some similarly narrow field, I'm probably not interested in it either 17:34:33 ais523: 0.-2.0.29? 17:34:50 so a guy asks a prof, "is there an unambiguous tree-adjoining grammar whose language is inherently ambiguous context-free" and i suggest one. the prof says he wants to cite me in his upcoming textbook. asks me my year of birth and military rank. 17:34:51 elliott: there's a newer version 17:34:54 russians, ay? 17:35:04 ais523: apparently not new enough, since not even the AUR package has it 17:35:25 elliott: I did a bad job of publicising it, really 17:35:36 there was the announcement on alt.lang.intercal, and that's about it 17:35:49 in theoretical computer science, everything is known by about 5 people. 17:36:04 ais523: oh, but result #1 was esr's intercal site 17:36:06 which links to NEWS.html 17:36:09 which says 0.29 17:36:14 (I googled "latest c-intercal") 17:36:25 elliott: ooh, I checked the top few Google results to make sure there wasn't anything useful 17:36:26 and also, that would be the first link I'd click if I didn't already know about C-INTERCAL's history 17:36:30 but missed that the NEWS.html auto-updated 17:36:49 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:36:49 ais523: it seems that what you have managed to deduce is only that *you* are bad at using Google to find information 17:37:15 well that's not surprising, given that it's blocked in the browser and I don't have much practice with it 17:37:24 I do very occasionally use duckduckgo 17:37:43 well, it's the greatest thing in the universe 17:37:45 you are missing out 17:37:49 it's smarter than you. 17:37:53 but visiting a site when I have no idea about what it's like in advance is ridiculous 17:37:58 smarter than anyone 17:38:12 why is that ridiculous 17:38:27 you have some sort of principle of not finding out about new things? 17:39:01 * ais523 wonders what percentage of web pages contain malware (including in adverts) 17:39:14 * ais523 looks it up on Wikipedia 17:39:20 what's malware? 17:39:20 mythical Linux-targetting malware? 17:39:34 as a windows user, i've never experienced this 17:40:05 elliott: well even flashing images are malware to some extent 17:40:51 elliott: even a site with a black background can be painful if I'm not warned in advance 17:41:03 for a while I genuinely seriously disabled colors on webpages 17:41:04 :D 17:41:09 but it ended up more trouble than it was worth 17:41:10 i used to do that 17:41:17 forced everything white on black 17:41:29 it was more worth than trouble 17:41:49 i'm the anti ais 17:42:48 perhaps I should try again 17:42:54 yes 17:42:57 the main problem was that it had a tendency to break websites 17:43:00 white background sucks ass 17:43:15 oklopol: so basically, I go on the basis that most websites have light-colored backgrounds 17:43:25 so I set the window manager to display the browser in inverse video 17:43:32 and that works in most cases, while still letting me tell colors apart 17:43:40 so you prefer white on black? 17:43:46 but if I find a page with a dark background, suddenly my eyes hurt 17:43:49 oklopol: at night I do 17:43:53 cool 17:43:56 trying to keep the light volume from the screen down 17:43:58 we not so diff after all 17:44:40 the nice thing about that is it also works on images 17:45:11 which typically have the same color balance 17:45:24 (I think that at this point, elliott has given up reading the conversation in disbelief) 17:45:50 elliott once made me a white on black theme for windows 17:45:52 unfortunately I have yet to summon the willpower 17:47:23 elliott: has it not crossed your mind that sometimes information on the Internet is wrong (mostly accidentally)? 17:48:04 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 17:48:17 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:48:18 in math stuff, that doesn't really matter at least 17:48:27 and otherwise, so what, people can be wrong too 17:48:32 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 17:48:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 17:48:41 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:48:47 ais523: happily I *have* found the willpower to not get involved in it again 17:49:06 POLL: How do you pronounce the last four letters of "counterfeit"? 17:49:11 fit 17:49:13 shachaf: "fit" 17:49:40 ^ cheated off me 17:49:48 You both cheated off elliott. 17:49:55 Counterfet 17:49:57 oklopol: no, it just took a little longer for me to type 17:50:17 says mr cheatypants 17:50:24 Coun-turft 17:52:18 After getting glasses, I decided to get a copy of my actual prescription. When all of the numbers on your optical prescription have magnitude less than 1, you probably don't REALLY need glasses. 17:53:15 i don't get why people get glasses, why not just, you know, *see well*? 17:53:15 Gregor: apparently with some sort of eye imperfections, wearing glasses can help prevent them getting worse 17:53:25 because the eye tries to correct over time but corrects in the wrong direction 17:53:35 and they stay steady if you're using glasses to correct it 17:54:04 Can you wear superglasses that make your eye correct in the right direction? 17:54:11 ais523: That's more-or-less what the optometrist suggested. I get really bad eyestrain, and she said that if I get glasses to do a minor correction in situations that cause eyestrain, my eyes won't get worse as fast. 17:54:22 shachaf: WHOAAAAAAAA 17:54:36 shachaf: no, they tried that for years before realising it didn't work 17:55:15 Should I see _The Coast of Utopia_? 17:55:28 In particular _Shipwreck_ and _Voyage_. 18:08:05 -!- FreeFull has joined. 18:20:15 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:21:03 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:24:38 -!- ogrom has joined. 18:25:09 -!- dessos has left. 18:31:33 -!- dessos has joined. 18:35:03 * impomatic wonders what the average life of an email address is... 18:35:23 -!- Bike has joined. 18:36:02 impomatic: does the address have to be used by a human? that'd increase it quite a lot 18:36:14 I imagine the vast proportion of email addresses are temporary creations by spambots 18:36:22 I emailed 28 people using an address from 10 years ago. 24 have bounced. 18:36:55 I'm trying to contact a few old Core War players for my history thing :-) 18:41:27 -!- geekychair has joined. 18:41:55 Do you know better what thing would need to be done to make Verilog programs to work on a different FPGA? 18:41:57 `welcome geekychair 18:42:04 geekychair: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 18:42:06 geekychair: important question: are you a chair irl 18:42:25 Thanks yep 18:42:51 all day 18:42:55 good to know. 18:42:59 some people are only chairs after 7 pm 18:43:14 are you like, a spinny chair or the kind that just sits boringly in place 18:43:42 wow Fiora don't be mean to chairs just because they don't move 18:43:44 Mine drives 18:43:57 indeed still chairs are an important part of the chair ecosystems. 18:44:04 http://25.media.tumblr.com/f4f5780fa5d95698d24ee91c0998a58c/tumblr_mg8p8yNukO1r2yrc9o1_250.gif that said 18:44:06 but the ones that don't move are boring and you can't put them at the right height! 18:44:19 and like, stuff 18:44:22 um they're at the right height for very special people (people who are the same height as them) 18:44:22 I don't know where I'm going with this 18:44:25 it's like finding a soulmate 18:44:33 that sounds like heightism fiora 18:44:34 you can't get that kind of connection from an adjustable chair!! 18:44:57 (I am actually in tears laughing) 18:45:07 rip 18:45:29 it's ok Fiora. somewhere out there is a chair who will comfort you. 18:45:34 wow, you managed to go for that long making names based on someone's nick? for shame 18:45:39 err, jokes 18:45:41 * ais523 is tired 18:46:16 ais523: elliott is talented 18:46:26 he should be the chair of the joke committee 18:46:26 Any Washingtonians? 18:46:32 have you not been here while i've been a bicycle (i am always a bicycle) 18:46:34 how's Lymia's evolver getting on? 18:46:35 though I worry that this particular one is on its last legs 18:46:41 why, yes, i'm some kind of washingSTONian 18:46:52 Bike: sometimes you're a Bike........ or a Bicyclidine........................................................ 18:47:04 geekychair: mostly we talk about entire countries rather than individual states 18:47:05 Fiora: unfortunately oerjan rules the joke committee with an iron fist. 18:47:06 geekychair: I am in WA but only until next week. 18:47:09 (except Hexham) 18:47:13 (he lost his regular fist in a tragic pun accident) 18:47:19 How can you be a chair after 7 PM? Is that your job? 18:47:36 elliott: that's... 18:47:37 Some people have to take the night shift, yes. 18:47:37 ... ironic 18:47:41 fuck 18:47:49 -!- elliott has left ("no"). 18:47:52 * Bike chokes on breakfast 18:48:05 I live in weird Olympia. 18:48:09 :< I scared him off 18:48:15 Fiora: that's pretty impressive :) 18:48:26 What did you eat for breakfast? Tea of choking? 18:48:28 I think people aren't used to /good/ puns, they happen so rarely 18:49:14 -!- elliott has joined. 18:49:14 ?? people live in olympia? 18:49:14 Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "" 18:49:14 I think that one was pretty awful though <.< 18:49:19 ok I can't live 18:49:19 thanks lambdabot. 18:49:22 I need #esoteric on window 2 18:49:27 or all my window numbering gets messed up 18:49:28 zzo38: Tea's gross. Milk of choking. 18:49:35 elliott: do you have a window reorder command? 18:49:39 I,I The beauty of the pun is in the Oy of the beholder. 18:49:43 it's alt-shift-left/alt-shift-right in Konversatoin 18:49:45 *Konversation 18:49:47 ais523: /win move 18:49:49 sorry elliott :< 18:49:55 but moving another window to 2 is more work than just joining #esoteric 18:50:09 you could also just part without closing the window 18:50:10 oh, I see 18:50:19 I thought you were complaining that you didn't have it in the right place after rejoining 18:50:21 Fiora: it's ok but I would watch out for the joke committee in future if I were you 18:50:27 rather than you didn't want to be here 18:50:27 I have friends in high places 18:50:33 sometimes they fall down 18:50:39 can we try to be ontopic with new people around, at least? 18:50:41 are they really in high places or are they just on high chairs 18:50:41 or is that impossible? 18:50:49 ais523: What's the topic? 18:50:53 ais523: You can try, but sometimes it is impossible. 18:51:00 OK, geekychair. Present your brainfuck derivative. 18:51:06 ais523: -!- Topic for #esoteric: The harmonic mean welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ 18:51:07 elliott: they should point out that my flatmate was 24 or so at source codes of programs 18:51:09 shachaf: I mentioned this to you earlier 18:51:15 ais523: looks like we're acting in accordance of the second clause of the topic right now 18:51:20 although the /topic is more meaningful than normal 18:51:23 Even people with esolang don't always brainfuck derivatives, at least! 18:51:37 actually, I'm going to agree with zzo38 on this 18:51:37 ais523: The meaningful part is the last part. 18:51:43 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:48 zzo38: about the logs? or about fungot? 18:51:48 has fungot actually made money from spam? 18:51:48 olsner: welcome back rotty, you have 18:51:49 ais523: i would use something like s3, if you want 18:52:02 fungot: I most certainly have not 18:52:03 olsner: a strong typed language is because the syntax is defined in. 18:52:10 ais523: Yes I mean the last part, which is the URL of logs. 18:52:31 or maybe they're in high places because they're tall 18:52:37 I guess the logs are a good way to check what the topic is, if you're willing to spend a lot of time reading them 18:52:39 so elliott has an army of tall people 18:53:04 Fiora: now you're disclosing our trade secrets? 18:53:15 Maybe they're in high places because elliott left adjoint somewhere. 18:53:16 you'd better watch out!!!! 18:53:20 shachaf: ... 18:53:41 elliott: secret? 18:53:44 * Fiora looks around the room 18:53:50 looks like an army of tall people ot me 18:53:51 I'm lost 18:53:51 geekychair: Well, do you like esoteric programming, or any of the other stuff we do in here such as mathematics and other strange things? 18:53:52 no everybody stop. I need a second to cope with shachaf. 18:54:03 elliott: second as in time, or a second person? 18:54:03 geekychair: sorry. this place kind of gets really silly sometimes 18:54:17 At least you should learn esoteric programming if you are in this channel, even if you have other stuff to discuss instead. It can help, to understand, in order to help this channel. 18:54:20 Fiora: Only when you're around. 18:54:20 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 18:54:21 geekychair: the channel's basically about esoteric programming languages, brainfuck and underload and the like 18:54:26 most of the time it talks about other things though 18:54:26 that's not true >_< 18:54:29 Fractals, laely 18:54:44 lately 18:54:44 shachaf: yeah, that seems a pretty baseless accusation out of nowhere 18:54:45 Fiora: We're boringly on-topic when you leave. 18:54:47 do you have evidence? 18:54:54 geekychair: hmm 18:55:01 I wonder if fractals are TC, and what that would mean 18:55:05 actually, #esoteric only exists while Fiora is in it. we are a figment of her imagination. 18:55:23 ais523: pretty sure compositions of analytic functions could be TC easily, at least 18:55:24 shachaf: but my client idles in here... so I can see your silliness when I'm gone! 18:55:29 did you really believe ais523 is a real person? 18:55:35 geekychair: What fractals? Do you have anything to say about them more specifically, or question/comment, etc? 18:55:57 I want to learn more 18:56:10 ais523: No, it's obviously a lie, hinting toward elliott's interpretation of the world. 18:56:33 shachaf: it's just not really helping discussion 18:56:43 I suppose. 18:56:45 randomly insisting on doing things with the bot, then insulting people, isn't really productive 18:56:50 (those are at separate times) 18:56:58 Wait, that was insulting? 18:57:15 shachaf: yeah, you basically accused Fiora of singlehandedly ruining the channel 18:57:23 What? 18:57:27 ;-; 18:57:31 geekychair: Is there a specific fractal you have things to write about it? 18:57:32 "really silly" is not a negative attribute of the channel! 18:57:51 geekychair: basically the idea is that fractals are generated from reasonably simple rules, which give self-similarity 18:57:52 I didn't think Fiora meant it as such and I certainly didn't. 18:58:09 i.e. a subset of the fractal is similar (or identical) to a scaled-down version of the entire fractal 18:58:56 actually, one of my favourite things to do with fractals is to do the equations with mere double-precision floating point numbers 18:59:04 then zoom in on the rounding errors 18:59:12 they often look like distorted versions of the originals 18:59:21 fractal usually means non-integral hausdorff dimension, self-similar is what the layman's fractals are called. 18:59:50 oklopol: you can get fractals which have an integer dimension, just the wrong integer 18:59:52 the Julia set has a hausdorff dimension of 2 though right? 18:59:58 I'm awaiting hate mail on my pro-animal testing tumblr post. 19:00:29 ok 19:00:39 thanks for letting us know 19:00:44 Fiora: I didn't know that but I can believe it 19:01:07 geekychair: I think part of the problem in the whole animal testing debate is a failure to define the problem 19:01:07 geekychair: Well, I am not going to send you any mail, but if you say, animal testing, you must say, what are you testing? This is an important question too. 19:01:45 http://geekychair.tumblr.com/ 19:01:54 I think animal testing is cruel 19:01:58 did you just join an esolangs channel to promote your blog 19:02:01 we already subject humans to so many tests throughout school 19:02:09 do we need to make animals take standardized tests too? 19:02:10 no 19:02:12 Fiora: Yes, I think so too. However it isn't that simple! 19:02:22 (as in, animal testing is cruel) 19:02:28 like, gosh. should mice have to sit through an SAT? that's mean! 19:02:40 at least give them cheese! 19:02:43 aren't there julia sets for pretty much all complex functions and dimensions vary 19:02:58 Horrible score 19:03:19 oklopol: I think the normal definition of "julia set" is the one constructed from a point in the mandelbrot set 19:03:19 I do not believe products intended for humans should be tested on animals, nor should products intended for men be tested on women. 19:03:54 k 19:03:55 (i.e. cruelty is not my main objection) 19:03:57 well wikipedia lists 1.0812 19:04:00 as the dimension 19:04:09 i guess that rounds up to 2 19:04:11 Fiora: now that you put it that way i'm realizing the standard classical conditioning procedure is weirdly like a standardized test... 19:04:59 Bike: I suppose some kinds of tests are. 19:06:16 Still, regardless of whether or not you agree with me, I do believe in freedom of speech and think you should write what you want to write even if everyone hates it, but other people should be allowed to reply, too. I do not intend to stop you from writing such things. 19:06:26 Bike: sorry I was just being incredibly silly <.< 19:06:35 how dare you 19:06:53 :< 19:06:56 lk 19:07:02 oklopol: "lk"? 19:07:16 sorry meant to say 19:07:19 19:08:31 Oh, ok. 19:16:17 I have asked here before, about the product of the exponents of a polynomial. This is because I was trying to figure out the cardinality of types having forall, such as (forall x. f x -> x) 19:16:36 zzo38: forall corresponds to product 19:17:08 in a dependently typed language, |forall (x:A), B x| = product (x in A) |B x| 19:17:25 (similarly |exists (x:A), B x| = sum (x in A) |B x|) 19:17:42 (and (A -> B) is just (forall (_:A), B)) 19:18:07 elliott: But what in Haskell? 19:18:35 good question. 19:19:14 Ok, I'm trying to work out what would it be like inside a warp bubble; I'm working on a novel and want a more realistic feel. 19:19:49 geekychair: Good question; I don't know either. What novel is that? 19:20:50 geekychair turns out to be a time-displaced anderson 19:21:13 I don't know if anyone would really know the answer to your question. 19:21:17 `relcome geekychair 19:21:21 ​geekychair: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:21:32 geekychair: the problem with warp bubbles is that they can't stop (at least without destroying large swatches of the universe in front of them, and probably not even then either) 19:22:06 they also need exotic matter, right? 19:22:46 I'm not sure on the details 19:23:06 but if you're moving faster than light, you have no way of controlling the front of your spaceship without sending information faster than light 19:23:06 geekychair: something like this, I imagine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPoqNeR3_UA 19:23:17 Yes, but appears less we thought. 19:24:08 Engage! 19:24:50 what was it, from jupiters-mass of exotic matter down to merely a tonne or so? 19:25:09 I don't like this word "tonne" 19:25:35 Yes 19:26:55 i assume ftl is basically like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imbxqv_5TJU 19:27:09 or at LEAST scored by ligeti. 19:27:31 Well, have good weekend 19:28:19 -!- geekychair has left. 19:28:38 o 19:28:39 k 19:29:03 ay! 19:32:43 my hunch is the view from inside an alcubierre bubble just looks black... 19:35:13 you'd probably see the stuff in front of you at least? 19:35:23 idk 19:35:28 with loads of relativistic beaming maybe 19:35:30 Fiora: I don't know if it would be visible clearly though 19:35:44 there's that bubble of highly distorted space around you 19:36:09 It seems to me it might look like differently somewhat, since the space is different, it moves different, the geometry is different, so I don't think it would resemble ordinary spacetime. 19:36:20 But I don't really know. 19:38:21 Phantom_Hoover: they left 19:38:31 i noticed 19:39:15 -!- azaq23 has joined. 19:40:04 I cannot find the information of the Verilog simulation formats. 19:42:07 -!- ais523 has quit. 19:47:23 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:52:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:55:44 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 20:03:03 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:04:14 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 20:06:11 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 20:07:10 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:12:11 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 20:13:33 -!- azaq23 has joined. 20:13:49 -!- azaq23 has quit (Client Quit). 20:24:29 admiral oklopol: good luck on getting cited 20:31:11 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:34:39 i see from the logs there has been some confusion about the joke committee, but i cannot be bothered to iron it out. 20:36:42 I live in weird Olympia. <-- wait, i thought US state capitals were generally too obscure to have people living in them. 20:37:19 Hang on 20:37:32 I know someone who lives i Olympia 20:37:44 *+n 20:37:51 oerjan: i know! it's weird. 20:38:41 Bike: if this continues, soon people will be saying canadian state capitals exist too! 20:39:14 that would be really weird considering canada doesn't even have states 20:39:29 also because canada doesn't exist? 20:39:44 oh they're called provinces 20:39:46 elliott: ummmmm it exists more than england........ 20:39:48 yes. we must work triple hard to prevent this eventuality 20:39:48 `olist 20:39:51 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/olist: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/olist: cannot execute: Permission denied 20:39:57 `run chmod +x bin/*list 20:40:01 `olist 20:40:01 yay! 20:40:09 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/olist: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/olist: cannot execute: Permission denied 20:40:13 No output. 20:40:14 and what a list it is 20:40:16 `olist 20:40:18 olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo 20:40:18 if canada doesn't have states, does that make it functional? 20:40:41 (assuming it exists at all) 20:40:50 canada is imperative 20:41:22 i think canada is logical. more than the us, anyway. 20:41:28 It's imperative that Canada. 20:43:20 I'm beginning to get nervous/excited/something 20:45:36 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 20:46:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 20:48:24 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:50:19 I still need to get all my data off the busted HD at some point 20:50:27 How many years ago did it break, I forget 20:51:10 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:53:23 thachaf 21:01:30 -!- AnotherTest has left. 21:04:54 I managed to get data off a HDD from a computer that died in 2001. I still need to get data off the one which died in 1998 though :-( 21:06:00 Well, that gives me hope 21:06:20 `pastelogs dd if 21:07:21 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17360 21:09:52 wtf is lupu511 21:10:22 Oh, Puppy Linux 21:10:31 Can someone teach me some handy Finnish phrases 21:10:33 wow those are some hella seds 21:10:47 Such as "Kill the imposter" 21:10:52 Sgeo, I think I remember it breaking 21:10:57 So... late 2011? 21:11:05 Taneb: Ei saa peittää 21:11:27 Taneb: "ei se ollut minun vikani" <- it wasn't my fault (always handy) 21:12:34 Phonetics? 21:13:26 Taneb: Taneb: "kukkulalla on liian monta vampyyrit" <- there are too many vampires on the hill (also useful?) 21:15:08 erk! 21:15:14 I don't see it on there 21:15:22 The dd command that I was given to run 21:15:33 I was relying on the logs to store it for me 21:19:08 presumably the logs crashed 21:20:11 does anyone else see that paste cut off at 2011-12-26.txt:16:02:07: E.g. here's one add if you want to b 21:21:45 * oerjan has no idea which one would be the one Sgeo wants 21:21:48 Maybe fizzie stopped talking after the b 21:22:09 _and_ no one ever mentioned dd if again? 21:22:16 `pastelogs dd if 21:22:18 Never ever. 21:22:33 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4404 21:22:37 someone said "don't mention dd if!" and we didn't 21:24:25 well that was apparently just temporary 21:25:11 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 21:25:34 I don't see it 21:25:35 :( 21:28:48 maybe search for something related to narrow down the time period? 21:30:14 Schneier is putting Facebook like buttons on his blog? Is this an April Fools joke? 21:30:33 Oh 21:30:36 the Julia set has a hausdorff dimension of 2 though right? <-- hm independently of the starting parameter? i recall that it's connected if the starting parameter is in the mandelbrot set and totally disconnected if not, but neither might be connected to hausdorff dimension... 21:30:41 maybe he's phishing to prove a point? 21:31:50 * oerjan looks at wikipedia 21:32:21 He's using a thing that makes you click once to get the real Facebook Like button 21:34:12 @tell Fiora http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fractals_by_Hausdorff_dimension has at least four different values listed for various Julia sets. 2 is one of them though. 21:34:13 Consider it noted. 21:35:05 that's actually where I read it from <.< 21:35:06 Fiora: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 21:35:18 heh 21:37:21 * oerjan finds a fifth value 21:37:52 non-integer dimensionality is weird ... I would like to understand it some day 21:41:25 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 21:41:31 olsner: hausdorff dimension is basically noting that you can calculate the dimension of _nice_ sets such as smooth curves (1) and solid disks or squares (2) by counting how the number of balls/disks needed to cover the set grows as you let the radius of the balls/disks go to 0 - and then noticing that for weirder sets the formula can give a non-integer number. 21:42:15 e.g. to cover a line segment you need a number of balls inversely proportional to the radius 21:42:38 that sounds the same as the lebesque covering dimension 21:42:48 or wait am i confusing the dimensions 21:43:15 (not that I know about that, I'm just reading about that on wikipedia) 21:44:29 no i was remembering correctly. hm what was the lebesgue again... 21:45:48 ah right, that's the one we used for the research on topological measures 21:46:22 olsner: lebesgue covering dimension is purely topological, hausdorff dimension is very much tied to a metric space 21:47:15 the former only takes integer values (or infinity) 21:47:50 i was going to correct that to natural numbers, but then i remembered that the empty set may be the unique exception naturally considered to have l.c. dimension -1 21:47:57 I guess the wikipedia article is trying to explain hausdorff dimension in terms of how it's different from topological dimension 21:49:18 * oerjan spots a typo in that 21:49:51 g and q? 21:50:07 wat? 21:50:14 no, that was my typo 21:50:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hausdorff_dimension&diff=546400926&oldid=543562084 21:52:26 oh i hardly noticed your q 21:53:16 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 21:53:47 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 21:56:08 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:56:31 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 22:01:03 like, gosh. should mice have to sit through an SAT? that's mean! <-- yeah how the heck should mice be expected to solve NP-complete problems when humans cannot! 22:01:44 *giggle* 22:02:00 but not all SATs are NP-complete! 22:02:04 humans can solve NP-complete problems....................................... 22:02:27 shachaf: [citation needed] 22:02:48 oerjan: They're not very fast at it, if that's what you mean. 22:02:57 But they can certainly solve them. 22:02:59 ok, technically _no_ single SAT is NP-complete. 22:03:17 not in their lifetime 22:03:30 tromp: that only gets worse for mice, though 22:03:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight). 22:03:55 maybe we should do the tests on giant turtles instead 22:04:20 or parrots 22:04:30 those grey parrots are fearfully smart 22:05:00 aren't sudokus np-complete! 22:05:16 in general, but any particular instance might be solvable in polynomial time, I think? 22:05:27 it reminds me of one hypothesis about np-completeness 22:05:29 nooodl: not when limited to 9*9, no 22:05:35 yeah, that too <.< 22:05:53 Fiora: any particular instance is solvable in _constant_ time. 22:05:57 oerjan: plz fix ghc bug 22:05:58 which is that "np-complete problems exist, but Almost All instances of them are solvable in polynomial time, and generating a Hard instance is actually in and of itself NP-complete" 22:06:04 oerjan: http://hpaste.org/84523 22:06:13 I think that was called "heuristic world" (of the 5 possible worlds the guy was proposing) 22:07:11 Fiora: istr one of the main ways of creating problems that are _frequently_ hard is to convert integer factorization to them - although that's not even known to be NP-complete 22:07:36 oerjan: Is that actually a bug? 22:07:51 yeah, that's one of those Weird problems, right? 22:07:57 the ones that are in NP but not np-complete 22:07:57 basically, RSA works only because you _can_ apparently make always hard problems that way 22:08:01 like um... graph whatever 22:08:26 Fiora: well it's not _known_ to be NP-complete. 22:08:31 graph whatever, the hardest known problem in computer science 22:08:35 er, yeah, that 22:08:42 Fiora: graph isomorphism 22:08:51 right! 22:09:03 http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2004/06/impagliazzos-five-worlds.html ah, here it was 22:09:14 i love isomorphisms of directed graphs with a single node 22:09:16 they are so easy 22:09:22 Algorithmica is where P=NP 22:09:45 ah, the one I described was "pessiland" 22:10:00 where NP problems aren't just hard on average, but it's hard to construct a hard NP problem, so you can't even make one-way functions 22:10:27 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 22:10:50 -!- Bike has joined. 22:10:51 graph isomorphism! 22:10:58 shachaf: except usually graphs don't allow loops... 22:11:08 oerjan: what did i do this time.?? 22:11:17 hey Fiora do you know much about graph isomorphism 22:11:24 shachaf: you made a somewhat hidden monoid pun 22:11:49 oerjan: aren't graps that don't have loops just trees? 22:12:02 no 22:12:06 trees are also connected 22:12:16 ah, forests then? 22:12:28 oerjan: If graphs don't usually allow loops, then why do people always specify directed *acyclicalic* graphs??????? 22:12:30 i guess 22:12:44 acyclicalic 22:12:45 olsner: by "loop" i mean edges from a vertex to itself, you are thinking of cycles 22:12:46 Bike: what's your opinion on acyclic graphs 22:12:57 Oh. 22:12:58 they're "pretty cool, imo" 22:13:02 oerjan: you assume that I think at all 22:13:03 Cycles are allowed but loops aren't? 22:13:16 which is that "np-complete problems exist, but Almost All instances of them are solvable in polynomial time, and generating a Hard instance is actually in and of itself NP-complete" 22:13:21 imo that makes no sense 22:13:27 yes, you cannot have an edge from a vertex to itself, or more than one between vertices 22:13:30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiver_(mathematics) 22:13:32 Better? 22:13:34 isn't the set of problems countable 22:14:29 i love isomorphisms of quivers with a single node and a distinguished loop 22:14:32 they are so easy 22:14:40 Better? 22:14:58 Phantom_Hoover: it's presumably a different meaning of Almost All 22:15:17 a WORSE meaning 22:15:27 I thought almost all meant 0% of them? 22:16:16 so like, as the problem size increases, there's exponentially fewer hard ones relative to the total number of problems, I guess? 22:16:28 I don't know if that makes sense >_< 22:16:37 I probably didn't interpret the paper very well 22:16:55 Fiora: ok, the problem is that cannot be a probability in the measure theoretic sense, because the set is countable. you need to use a different notion of 0%. 22:16:56 probably something like that 22:17:25 presumably based on limits of frequency 22:18:17 also if there were only finitely many hard problems 22:18:49 (this isn't unheard of, it's the same kind of thing in the result "two random integers have pi^2/6 chance of being relatively prime." not sure i remembered that formula right. 22:18:53 ) 22:19:27 can you even have two uniformly distributed random integers 22:19:45 you can have a factor p with prob 1/p 22:19:47 Phantom_Hoover: then technically there wouldn't be any hard problems by the simple definitions, since a finite number can always be baked into constants 22:20:50 Phantom_Hoover: you cannot have a uniform measure-theoretic probability on the integers, period. although i recall some stuff about ultrafilters... 22:22:04 Better? <-- more in some comparative direction, anyway. 22:22:25 oh dear 22:22:33 they're like filters, but... moreso 22:23:48 Nobody else will help me to make a Verilog program to run on Csound. 22:23:48 they're like points outside time and space 22:24:17 7lastlog fizzie 22:24:25 "There is limited support for other devices. 22:24:25 In particular, isochronous devices such as USB webcams are know not to work." 22:24:26 grah 22:24:26 Er, I mean, disregard that, folks. 22:25:08 we cannot disregard the dreaded 7lastlog, fizzie 22:25:51 Then again, this is for an older thing, and I don't know if XenClient Express is just XenClient 2.1 rebranded 22:25:59 Also I said E.g. here's one add if you want to buy 15 tons of hard discs. and did not cut off at b. 22:27:08 (I was at a dissertation afterparty, I'm not entirely sober, thus the 7lastlog.) 22:28:13 "isochronous" sounds like a circuit or algorithm type from star trek, probably somehow related to time travel given the "chronous" part 22:28:42 try isolating the temporal phase variance using an isochronous algorithm 22:28:49 isochronous programming languages such as feather and twoducks 22:29:50 what about plesiosynchronous 22:33:02 the name is probably half the reason it's not more popular 22:36:15 @wn plesio- 22:36:16 No match for "plesio-". 22:36:27 "almost-" 22:37:02 wait plesiosaur means "almost lizard"? 22:37:14 I guess it comes from an attempt at rebranding a broken synchronous widget as a working plesiochronous one 22:38:26 or "near-" ... could mean "not too long ago lizard", I guess 22:42:49 !bfjoust generation-2184 (((((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+>-+[+]])*7+>-+[((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+]])*7+>-+[(((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+])*7+])*7>-+[((((+)*7+>-+[+])*7+>-+[(+)*7+])*7+)*7+]+ 22:43:00 ​Score for Lymia_generation-2184: 11.1 22:43:11 -!- zzo38 has left. 22:45:57 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:46:48 olsner: i don't think the jurassic is usually described as "not too long ago". 22:47:22 well, cretaceous too 22:48:04 let's assume the name was given by some plesiocontemporary cavemen 22:48:55 * oerjan plesioswats olsner -----### 22:49:08 plesiouch 22:49:35 oh no, no reddit 23:06:47 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:07:27 oerjan, don't even joke about that 23:07:50 what joke 23:07:58 this is serious business 23:08:26 It's up for me. But I only checked after I said not to joke about that 23:08:30 also, are you saying it's back up 23:08:53 !bfjoust i-don't-know-how-this-does-against-hill (+>(.>[]+((+)*2+)*2+)*2+[.>[(+)*2+]+((+)*2+)*2+])*2+ 23:08:57 ​Score for Lymia_i-don_t-know-how-this-does-against-hill: 6.9 23:09:02 well i had got a page about scheduled maintenance 23:09:50 it works now! press F5 until it goes down again 23:10:13 yay! 23:10:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:10:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:10:31 I WANT EAT 23:10:35 * oerjan has however put reddit back in the queue 23:10:48 YOU WANT EAT WHO? 23:11:15 oh no, do we have to teach Sgeo how to eat again? 23:11:51 as someone who just ate i can't recommend it 23:12:59 What do you want to eat though? 23:13:20 Sgeo: some sources recommend against eating, maybe you should play it safe and starve 23:13:59 seriously bachelor food is the worst jesus 23:14:35 if you don't like it then why do you make it? 23:15:51 also, it's up to you to choose a better jesus if you want one ... do you like the jesus in the bible, for example? I hear he's pretty popular 23:17:05 i think sgeo's still feeling crushed after soylent turned out to be rubbish 23:17:48 it was an experiment 23:17:52 unfortunately it succeeded 23:17:59 what was it? 23:18:25 im going to say what i said the first time that came around 23:18:26 mostly salt, i think 23:18:33 it already exists and they made me drink it for a fucking year you morons 23:18:34 i've been unconscious for a few hours and don't remember much 23:18:47 what 23:18:49 elliott: sounds craptastic 23:19:10 Bike: i had an interesting year or two with the mental health care system 23:19:22 Bike: you ate something you think was salt and you passed out for a few hours? 23:19:31 yes 23:19:36 elliott: i have no idea what you are talking about 23:19:46 Bike: the thing Phantom_Hoover is 23:19:55 imo you need more sleep 23:20:01 soylent? like the food? 23:20:11 its like you dont even read hacker news!!!!!!!!!!!! 23:20:16 "The Post-Food Man: Drink Soylent, and You May Never Have to Eat Again 23:20:18 oh. 23:20:19 yes that. 23:20:37 the thing I find worst about that whole thing is that he chose to call it soylent 23:22:53 well, unless he made it out of [spoiler] like in the movie, then it would be an awesome name 23:23:01 are you seriously 23:23:03 marking a spoiler warning 23:23:05 for soylent green 23:23:20 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:23:26 soylent green is made of rosebud 23:23:26 yes I did, not so sure about the seriously though 23:23:50 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:26:12 it's a cookbook! 23:26:17 The pizza arrived, they gave the wrong thing 23:26:18 :( 23:26:24 soylent green is made out of soya and lentils 23:26:46 it already exists and they made me drink it for a fucking year you morons 23:27:03 okay wait okay back up elliott was institutionalized? 23:27:04 elliott, where can I buy some? 23:27:11 that stuff is meant to keep you alive, not healthy 23:27:15 Oh :( 23:27:26 sgeo are you seriously asking for food you'd eat in a sanitarium 23:28:23 It would be convenient 23:28:45 have you not heard the stories about hospital food... 23:28:59 Surely stuff could be added for taste? 23:29:15 is that like, how you think food works 23:29:19 or in america do you get served 3-course haute cuisine if you can afford healthcare in the first place 23:29:24 you get a blob of proteins and put condiments on it? 23:29:32 no, Bike 23:29:40 he just has a blob of carbohydrates 23:29:54 uuuuugh that's what i just ate 23:30:05 but the condiments??? 23:30:10 yes it had salt 23:30:16 33% of my daily intake of salt 23:30:18 I like salt 23:30:19 Phantom_Hoover: well er 23:30:21 Phantom_Hoover: not really 23:30:30 I used to like garlic salt, but haven't tried it in a while 23:30:33 oh my god that's almost a gram of salt. 23:30:42 why did i eat this 23:30:46 elliott, remind me, were they feeding you that stuff exclusively 23:30:46 So garlic salt + liquid food = profit? 23:30:49 Sgeo: i'm sure they prescribe it in america 23:30:57 Phantom_Hoover: no wtf i eat food jesus 23:31:16 Phantom_Hoover: it is meant to supplement or wahtever but the same company also makes a thing for sole feeding or whatever 23:31:17 Or you could just put garlic itself in 23:31:20 christ i don't remember that much any more 23:31:36 Ok, I could live with a supplement 23:31:40 seriously though, were you institutionalized or something? 23:31:44 Bike, yes he was 23:31:47 hey Sgeo 23:31:50 no i wasn't, shut the hell up 23:31:56 hospitalized? 23:32:00 however they did threaten to instutitionalise me if i didn't go voluntarily 23:32:01 so 23:32:07 "yes but they didn't have to fill out any paperwork" 23:32:09 oh, in this episode of voyager they create two holodeck characters and watch them argue 23:32:13 yeah but from what i gathered from the soylent comments the live-on-it-alone stuff is for when you are like incapable of eating normal food 23:32:29 sounds like the sort of thing they'd force feed you in a sanitarium 23:32:34 they let me go home on the weekends though!!!1111 23:32:36 height of luxury 23:32:41 So maybe I eat like I normally do, and suppliment is in case that normal food nutrition is out of whack 23:32:57 Which given that I'm me it probably is 23:33:15 elliott, also they didn't catch you when you smuggled a phone in! remember their kindness 23:33:30 yes 23:33:35 it would be nice if there really was an all-nutrition food. it would come in a lot of handy at the food bank 23:33:48 Phantom_Hoover: i like how that meant i slept from like 23:33:51 4 am to 7 am every day 23:33:56 Wasn't the Dilburrito supposed to be an all nutrition food? 23:34:10 dil...burrito 23:34:19 Scott Adams Foods, Inc. 23:34:29 oh dear 23:34:35 Oh, it's Dilberito 23:34:37 allnutrition ~ malnutrition 23:35:00 'all-nutrition' food is not going to work until we have a comprehensive understanding of nutrition 23:35:20 yes, which we don't, but it would still be nice to give a magic pill to the homeless guy that came in yesterday. 23:35:25 Phantom_Hoover: well you can probably do better than the kind of awful diets a lot of people are on 23:35:48 instead of like, well, here are some cans of simulated corn product 23:36:18 Am I allowed to be upset that the Dilberito is no longer produced? 23:36:28 and milk developed for nuclear apocalypse conditions 23:36:47 be upset at anything you like, man. 23:37:02 When I talked to a dietician some time ago, she suggested frozen dinners 23:37:13 If those are actually better for me than what I've been eating... 23:38:37 well, that's not entirely surprising :) 23:39:02 what the hell do you eat dude, you're kind of worrying me here 23:39:11 pasta with cheese, iirc 23:39:16 that and pop tarts 23:39:24 What Phantom_Hoover said. 23:39:37 The pop-tarts thing is breakfast, breakfast does tend to vary based on what's available 23:39:41 god no wonder you don't like eating 23:39:42 I do eat cereal sometimes 23:40:00 Bike, I have never liked eating 23:40:21 eating solidified paste is not the solution 23:41:20 solidified paste? 23:41:30 you're not going to find a magic bullet in your battle with evolution 23:41:47 I do like those frozen dinner things 23:42:01 Sgeo: you should, like, learn how to cook something 23:42:03 I just need to get a better thermometer before I'm willing to touch one again though 23:42:09 olsner, I know how to cook pasta! 23:42:46 always a start! but you need more than cheese to go with it 23:43:08 hmm, how do you use a thermometer with a frozen dinner? 23:43:11 Ketchup with cheese is gross 23:43:43 olsner, after microwaving the dinner, stick thermometer into meat to be sure that it was cooked properly 23:44:49 I think frozen dinners are usually precooked, and merely need to be thawed and reheated (but it doesn't hurt to check the instructions) 23:45:02 `slist 23:45:04 slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 23:45:34 excuse me 23:45:44 my unilateral list action appears to have been reversed 23:48:06 `url 23:48:08 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:48:33 olsner, the ones my dad's been getting have been saying that you need to make sure it reaches a certain temperature for safety 23:49:31 just get a cheap cookbook and try something out 23:49:35 10 days ago shachaf fixed it with a new architecture 23:49:46 Sgeo: there's something wrong with that whole setup 23:50:01 like meatloaf or something! you get to knead it with your hands, it's fun 23:50:08 I've never seen microwavable food with instructions like that 23:50:14 as an added bonus you won't be eating congealed duck feces 23:50:28 microwave food is made for idiots, not people who can use a thermometer 23:50:53 yeah it's just "put this in for two minutes" 23:51:30 hm 23:51:34 could it be made for professional preparers of frozen dinners of some kind? 23:52:18 like heston blumenthal? 23:52:29 maybe sgeo's accidentally getting food for adults 23:53:33 Presumably, sterilizing frozen dinners is "hard" 23:53:37 "effort" 23:53:43 so it has to be recooked 23:53:49 but they should already be sterile 23:54:01 even in someone's 50W oven 23:54:28 Someone's angry about brownies http://baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.com/2010/06/dear-mr-swanson.html 23:54:49 isn't sterilising things these days a matter of putting them in a box and firing gamma rays at them 23:55:13 WHY DOES EVERYONE ON THE PHONE THINK I'M FEMALE 23:55:28 Why don't you? 23:56:13 just speak more mannily 23:56:13 if it helps i didn't think you sounded like a woman in your karaoke at all 23:56:23 throw in a "dame" or a growl every few seconds 23:56:46 GCC 4.8 came out, also it's written in C++ now for some reason 23:56:56 what 23:56:59 Sgeo, what did you do with that karaoke anyway 23:57:06 chicken, potato, and corn, period? that's an impressively poor frozen dinner 23:57:08 Phantom_Hoover, I'm sure it's somewhere 23:57:14 but I think that means "C++ as a better C" and not "we rewrote the entire thing to use smart pointers and RAII" 23:57:18 not good enough sgeo 23:57:20 not good enough 23:57:24 (if it's supposed to be eaten like that?) 23:57:27 I have it on my HD 23:57:34 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:57:36 i've heard that gcc's style isn't very C anyway 23:57:56 As you know, GCC is written in GCCC. 23:58:02 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host). 23:58:02 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:58:36 it has its own garbage collector for one 23:58:53 but what doesn't 23:59:01 "he C++ features which are not present in C -- features which are well documented in many books and many web sites -- are not an important issue." well, okay 23:59:01 firefox 23:59:02 Linux kernel has a garbage collector for UNIX sockets 23:59:13 Maybe garbage collection should be an OS provided service 23:59:27 ooh GCC 4.8 has a new flag -Og which means "optimize but not in a way that fucks up debugging" 23:59:29 I thought the firefox memory eater problem was due to continually raising the minimum buffer size and never lowering it. 23:59:33 kmc: doesn't it just use boehm 23:59:34 yeah i heard about -Og 23:59:35 maybe it should be an @ provided service 23:59:51 kind of curious how many non-numeric -Os there are going to be