00:01:04 <nooodl> (fmap f . flip) f g x = fmap f (flip f) g x = (f . flip f) g x = f (flip f g) x... it still doesn't make much sense
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00:12:33 <Sgeo> ZipLists are so verbose to use :(
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00:31:25 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, after I finish this last episode of Space Cadets, I'll go watch another episode of Farscape. How's PMMM coming?
00:37:06 <Sgeo> Kind of weird to think a hoax saved someone's life
00:37:13 <Sgeo> (As in, the guy who gave up smoking)
00:40:22 <elliott> calling that life-saving is a little rich...
00:42:54 <ais523> it's life-prolonging, on average
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00:48:48 <Fiora> there's an amusing irony in your fake answers
00:49:13 <Fiora> since eventually one realizes that the whole point of madoka magica is that she can't be allowed to use the magic
00:49:21 <elliott> those are fake blocks again aren't they.
00:49:26 <elliott> you're not going to fool me this time.
00:49:26 <Fiora> (no, they're real)
00:49:30 <Bike> NO DON'T DO IT ELLIOTT
00:49:52 <elliott> it is like a reflex when i see spoiler markings of any sort
00:50:24 <pikhq_> Mmm, Mahō Shōjo Madoka Magika. Good series.
00:52:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, (my impression of this series is that it is a brilliant deconstruction of a genre to which i have never been exposed)
00:53:06 <Bike> (haha, deconstruction)
00:53:13 <Fiora> maybe a little? but not really
00:53:21 <Sgeo> fwiw, I haven't really had exposure to the genre in question myself
00:53:50 <Fiora> it's a wonderful self-contained story that you don't need to watch anything else to enjoy
00:53:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i'll have to fall back on 'animes are for little girls and gay'
00:54:04 <Fiora> but the gay is one of the best reasons to watch it :<
00:54:13 <Bike> excuse status: annihilated
00:54:17 <Fiora> that's like "I won't eat the cake because of the wonderfully tasty fudge chocolate"
00:54:33 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Are you suggesting that gay is bad?
00:54:44 <Bike> i think he's suggesting that he's being silly
00:54:52 <pikhq_> Each time you say that I will fuck a man.
00:55:06 <Bike> is the man hot
00:55:15 <pikhq_> Bike: Well yes. I have some taste.
00:55:24 <pikhq_> *echm* Bow chicka wow wow
00:55:37 <elliott> what you have to realise is that Phantom_Hoover is too busy insulting bf derivatives on his incredibly popular blog
00:55:41 <elliott> to do anything else whatsoever
00:55:54 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like it's gonna be quite an orgy.
00:55:59 <elliott> in fact he outsources his IRC presence. we're not talking to the real phantom hoover
00:56:06 <Sgeo> Should I feel insulted that Braintrust hasn't been insulted?
00:56:18 * Sgeo slaps self for blatant obsessivism
00:56:50 <elliott> in fact the real PH hasn't even seen farscape. it's just that 2/3rds of his 3-person IRC team really like it
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00:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> we tried putting it in the corner of his screen while he was writing screeds about bf derivatives
00:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> results so far have been inconclusive but promising trends have been noted in his writing style
00:59:18 <Bike> kinda ruining my immersion here phantom hoover
00:59:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is kind of like the martin luther of esolangs
00:59:30 <elliott> note that I know almost nothing about martin luther
00:59:31 <Bike> i need to believe i'm really on the same IRC channel as the incredibly popular phantom hoover
00:59:35 <elliott> other than that he was probably kind of a drag to be around
00:59:36 <Bike> he was really anti semitic
00:59:52 <Bike> on a scale of "pretty cool" to "hitler" what would you say your opinion on jews is
01:00:02 <Bike> that's not on the scale
01:00:12 <elliott> if you answer hitler does that mean you think jews are as good as hitler
01:00:20 <elliott> because i'm not sure that is actually possible
01:00:24 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover is actually a committee??
01:00:45 <elliott> well i guess if you're like
01:00:45 <elliott> an antisemite who really hates moustaches
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01:01:18 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if you hate hitler for ruining antisemitism
01:01:34 <elliott> is probably an opinion someone atcually has
01:04:04 <elliott> your support means a lot to me.
01:06:11 <ais523> elliott: well sometimes I ask for yours
01:06:19 <ais523> e.g. when I'm not sure I have the right opinion
01:07:05 <ais523> or when I'm failing to understand Haskell as usual
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02:38:19 <Sgeo> Time to watch ep 6 of Farscape
02:38:49 <Sgeo> "Thank God It's Friday. Again." sounds time travelley
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02:47:10 <Sgeo> I found my glasses. It's nice having depth perception.
02:49:58 <shachaf> elliott: Are you kidding? That's great!
02:50:10 <elliott> I have no idea what you're referencing
02:50:15 <Sgeo> elliott, is this a decent guide? http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/f3efg
02:51:57 <shachaf> elliott: You really don't want to mention it to edwardk?
02:52:18 <elliott> do you really want more inscrutable lens type errors?
02:54:32 <shachaf> imo distribute is much better than current (??)
03:02:09 <elliott> shachaf: except Distributive just means "isomorphic to (k ->) for some k"
03:02:24 <shachaf> The point is that you're not making up a new type.
03:02:36 <shachaf> Dstributive already exists, and this is just a new name for it.
03:02:52 <elliott> maybe the infix should be in distributive instead.
03:03:02 <elliott> and lens should just depend on it for one stupid function so it can reexport it.
03:03:03 <shachaf> Wait, isn't that Representable?
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03:19:04 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:19:19 <Bike> dal?? really shachaf????
03:28:17 <Sgeo> wtf hown did I fail to recognize that symbol until Crichton said it?
03:42:58 <Sgeo> The Peacekeeper symbol
03:43:45 <Phantom_Hoover> fun fact, that symbol is based on a work of bolshevik propaganda
03:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (apparently the russians are very inspired by triangles)
03:44:33 <Sgeo> I finished the episode
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04:23:55 <Sgeo> Is /r/buildapcforme generally good?
04:38:38 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:39:14 <Bike> you going anywhere tonight, elliott? let's say you and me hit up the clubs and then awkwardly fuck
04:39:15 <kmc> `bike welcome
04:39:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bike: not found
04:39:31 <kmc> how many hookups has #esoteric facilitate
04:39:39 <elliott> going to guess somewhere in the region of 0
04:39:45 <Bike> it's not so much a hookup as it is a fuckup
04:40:03 <Fiora> if not hookups can we at least, like, ship people?
04:40:09 <Fiora> elliott x kmc otp or something
04:40:51 <lmt> is everyone in this channel gay
04:41:07 <pikhq_> I don't think even most of us are gay.
04:41:48 <lmt> you guys are behind the times
04:42:07 <Bike> more like BEHIND the times
04:42:15 <kmc> haha, butts
04:42:23 <Bike> always a good joke, butts
04:42:35 <kmc> always... the butt of a joke
04:45:43 <lmt> im serious
04:58:19 <shachaf> My sister is a big fan of "shipping", apparently.
05:00:30 <Bike> Does she help with your cosplays
05:02:02 <shachaf> She doesn't like that comic, I don't think.
05:03:29 <Sgeo> Oh hey HackEgo's fixed
05:04:20 <pikhq_> lmt: But yeah. Sadly I'm only, like, half-gay.
05:06:21 * Sgeo is either straight or mostly straight
05:07:16 <Bike> Have you tried fucking a dude? Or like, let's be imaginative, a horse. Just to check.
05:07:54 <pikhq_> Rather sure it doesn't work that way.
05:08:21 <shachaf> Bike truly has a way with words.
05:08:27 <Bike> are you a horse pikhq
05:08:55 <Sgeo> I wish I could choose my sexuality. Would choose to either be bisexual or asexual.
05:09:02 <Sgeo> Not sure which
05:09:25 <pikhq_> Also, sex is pretty fun.
05:10:06 <Sgeo> People getting mad because of staring is not fun
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05:10:46 <monqy> do you stare at people sgeo. is this a problem
05:10:51 <kmc> dongs everywhere
05:11:04 <shachaf> i stare at people. but only if they are monqy
05:11:17 <pikhq_> kmc: I know that feel.
05:11:23 <pikhq_> Well actually I don't.
05:11:32 <Bike> the monqystaring feel
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05:33:52 <fungot> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
05:34:44 <HackEgo> Sgeo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:35:58 <shachaf> Bike: Are you in Portland?
05:36:09 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:36:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welliott: not found
05:36:39 <Bike> Portland metro.
05:38:06 <shachaf> Bike: what are you doing in portland you're a bike you don't...... never mind i guess
05:38:20 <Fiora> Sgeo: I'm not sure if I'd recommend asexuality, it's not that fun
05:38:51 <Bike> shachaf: uh have you ever seen portland it's like 700% bikes
05:39:01 <shachaf> Bike: that's the never mind part......
05:39:01 <Fiora> I thought you were in washington
05:39:12 <shachaf> Fiora: Are you confusing me with Bike?
05:39:13 <Sgeo> My sexuality has only been actually _fun_ since maybe late 2011
05:39:17 <Bike> Fiora: portland metro stretches into washington.
05:39:21 <Sgeo> Before then it just caused problems
05:41:25 <shachaf> Bike: Weren't you in Seattle?
05:41:30 <shachaf> Seattle is not Portland metro!
05:41:50 <Bike> I wasn't in Seattle.
05:42:07 <Fiora> I was making a joke about bikes
05:42:14 <Bike> Jokes are hard.
05:42:28 <shachaf> Fiora: You *should* be sorry!
05:42:44 <Sgeo> I don't think it's something I want to just casually talk about in here. Just, I was not a perfect person when I was younger. Not... utterly evil I guess, I'm not a rapist or anything like that, but
05:43:03 <elliott> this is going fantastic places.
05:43:23 <monqy> don't you talk about it casually quite a bit already
05:43:43 <shachaf> isnt that basically "what Sgeo does"
05:43:54 <Bike> ugh i watched that onion video about football racists and now it's going to stick in my head uuuuugh help
05:44:08 <pikhq_> Yup. Talk casually about personal life and then be worried about it.
05:44:08 <Bike> i dunno probably both
05:44:14 <pikhq_> It's the last bit that's classic Sgeo.
05:45:13 <pikhq_> Sgeo: In the name of random. My sexuality only got "fun" since late 2012. Because that's when I lost my virginity. :P
05:46:04 <Sgeo> I had some fun times even before losing my virginity... and losing my virginity wasn't really that fun
05:46:46 <monqy> see this is what im talking about
05:47:28 <Sgeo> Some things I'm ok with talking about casually other things I'm not. Not a difficult concept.
05:48:50 <elliott> i find one of those halves really dubious
05:53:16 * coppro wonders how many karkat tantrum bingo boards exist by now
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06:59:44 <hagb4rd> <Sgeo>My sexuality has only been actually _fun_ since maybe late 2011. [..] Just, I was not a perfect person when I was younger <-- you mean younger in ..2011?!
06:59:47 <hagb4rd> you must have had vivid two years since then
07:00:06 <Sgeo> I mean before 2011
07:01:04 <hagb4rd> sgeo: okay..*phew* ..how old are you?
07:02:35 <hagb4rd> that must be the avarage age of folks in this channel.. right? i guess kmc is a little bit older
07:03:46 <kmc> how did i get to be the old one :(
07:04:05 <kmc> elliott is like 18 or something despite having the demeanor of a bitter old man like me
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07:07:26 <hagb4rd> <kmc>how did i get to be the old one :( <-- maybe not old but.. mature ;) anyone older than you kmc?
07:07:26 <hagb4rd> and i guess ..most of the people here still haven't finished college yet
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07:07:28 <hagb4rd> because you guys have too much time
07:09:03 <Sgeo> How is elliott already 18???
07:14:15 <kmc> you're not sure? :)
07:14:33 <Fiora> ... I'm... I'm pretty sure!
07:17:07 <Fiora> I don't think 25 counts as that old though :p
07:17:34 <Sgeo> current year - birth year - 1 if it's before your birthday this year, current year - birth year if it's after your birthday this year.
07:18:12 <kmc> thank you for explaining how birthdays work
07:18:39 <kmc> i'm just used to being the young one in my peer group
07:18:40 <hagb4rd> now explain how women work
07:18:43 <Sgeo> It tends to take me a moment
07:18:47 <kmc> started university 2 years early
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07:26:22 <hagb4rd> iirc you mentioned beeing employed at a software company..and that's all i can tell.. however! you're all pretty young and smart.
07:27:49 <Fiora> hagb4rd: we use the citric acid cycle to extract chemical bond energy from organic modules, powering a complex organization of self-aware nanomachines?
07:28:03 <Fiora> I think that's how we work. Not 100% sure though, some might work differently.
07:29:21 <hagb4rd> no i really didn't want to know how you work!
07:30:14 <Fiora> ummmmm um mixed piles of fangirl squees ? I don't know
07:31:00 <hagb4rd> you don't know. great! that's a good point to start!
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07:37:23 <hagb4rd> you know: where we are is always the whole world
07:39:42 <Lymia> !bfjoust stupid http://files.lymiahugs.com/best-50-47.txt
07:39:57 <EgoBot> Score for Lymia_stupid: 5.0
07:40:27 <Lymia> So... let's see if bfjoust evolvers failing is because of it being that hard, or because of bad representations :p
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07:47:31 <kmc> not the first time
07:49:32 <Sgeo> Huh, didn't know that citric acid cycle was a name for it
07:50:11 <Fiora> oh yay I guess I got it right
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08:32:57 <olsner> hmm, reading about borges, when suddenly one of the "See also" sections links to "List of lists of lists"
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10:05:12 <fizzie> Also, re logs, I'm older than kmc? That somehow doesn't sound right.
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11:04:55 <DHeadshot> "Least Welcoming channel on Freenode"? Surely that would be #irp!
11:06:08 <HackEgo> EVERYONE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
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12:44:25 <oerjan> Fiora: if i cared about madoka spoilers i'd point out spoiler markings don't work in the logs.
12:45:26 <oerjan> also, there would be someone awake to read it.
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12:47:12 <fizzie> ^rainbow2 is not, though
12:47:12 <fungot> ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output!
12:52:33 <oerjan> <elliott> in fact the real PH hasn't even seen farscape. it's just that 2/3rds of his 3-person IRC team really like it <-- is there any overlap with the team that plays DMM?
12:55:54 <oerjan> oh farscape is australian too. probably there is overlap with the actor team too...
12:56:54 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives
12:56:59 <HackEgo> 986) <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think hitler made any bf derivatives
13:05:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: The median welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | <Taneb> #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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13:15:45 <ais523> haha, I just got an email from X, with reply-to: set to X's address, asking for a reply at Y
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13:23:04 <metasepia> CYUL 191311Z 07011KT 3/4SM R06L/2600FT/U R06R/2600FT/N -SN BLSN VV004 M02/M03 A2988 RMK SN8 SLP121
13:24:01 <boily> stupidweatherstupidpublictransportationdidn'tgetmycoffeeyetaaaaaaurgh!
13:30:13 <oerjan> hey i was just about to say that.
13:30:14 <fizzie> It's been stupidly cold here all this month. Overall average temperature for March has been around -8 °C; it's supposed to be around -1..-1.5 °C. Someone must've forgotten to bump the season variable.
13:30:28 <coppro> fizzie: you should file a complaint
13:31:13 <fizzie> Yes, maybe there's a web form. They might send me a gift card or something.
13:31:25 <oerjan> ais523: i _maybe_ kind of possibly think the wiki might currently be having a spam problem.
13:31:45 <ais523> oerjan: yeah but I can't fix it, I'm at work
13:31:51 <ais523> I'll fix it when I get home, if nobody else does first
13:32:22 * oerjan phones ais523's employers to sack him so he can fix the wiki
13:32:52 <ais523> oerjan: err, this is a really ironic day to make that threat
13:33:09 <ais523> was the last day of contact with this year's cohort of students, and I'm leaving at the end of the academic year
13:33:21 <ais523> so I hardly need to turn up from now on
13:34:29 <ais523> I enjoy working with them
13:36:43 <ais523> although one of the highlights of weirdness of today's marking session was that one of the students had (in Java) created a property in a class, with the same name as the class
13:36:48 <Fiora> oerjan: but but. you pointed it out. soooo you must care about spoilers !
13:37:14 <ais523> which is permitted by the compiler, but which cannot be done without violating capitalization constraints, as well as several other things wrong with it
13:37:16 <Fiora> (but seriously sorry, I didn't know the logs stripped colors :<)
13:37:26 <ais523> err, capitalization conventions
13:37:33 <ais523> Fiora: several clients strip colors too, I have mine set to do that
13:37:47 <ais523> also you can't know the background color, and most clients don't understand codes to set the background color
13:37:49 <oerjan> Fiora: they don't _strip_ them. they just don't interpret them as colors.
13:38:55 <Fiora> geez. is there some portable way then?
13:39:06 <Fiora> I've always been told to use ^C0,0 or something like that...
13:39:53 <ais523> only portable way to do spoilers in IRC is to put them in a different channel/query/privmsg
13:40:13 <ais523> I think the ^C0,0 thing not only isn't portable, it also only works in mIRC
13:40:13 <oerjan> once upon a time that was the kind of thing rot13 was used for.
13:40:37 <oerjan> ais523: it works in irssi
13:40:41 <ais523> actually, at least one unspoiled NetHack channel uses rot13
13:40:49 <Fiora> it works in irs-- what oerjan said <.<
13:41:04 <Fiora> I think it works in mibbit too? maybe xchat?
13:41:07 <boily> it works in the most bestest client of them all, the incredible weechat.
13:41:09 <Fiora> I don't know that many clients
13:42:49 <ais523> doesn't it only work in irssi if the terminal happens to have a background that's the same color as a black foreground?
13:43:02 <ais523> (as I discovered working on AceHack, this is not the same thing as a black background)
13:43:08 <Fiora> sets the background too, I think?
13:43:15 <Fiora> ^C0,0 sets the background too, I think?
13:43:23 <Fiora> like, on my client, ^C0,0 is all white
13:43:26 <Fiora> and ^C1,1 is all black
13:43:45 <ais523> the background color part of ^C isn't interpreted by that many clients
13:43:51 <ais523> frequently you're talking to someone using mIRC
13:43:56 <ais523> and just get stray commas and numbers
13:45:22 <boily> works here, and it's annoying. I have to go and use my mouse!
13:45:28 <oerjan> ais523: my irssi/putty setup understands background colors.
13:46:40 <Fiora> that's what I use too... I guess I'll try to be more careful though since it doesn't work with everything
13:47:40 <oerjan> i vaguely do recall i changed the white color for putty way back because it was actually a kind of light grey by default.
13:50:14 <oerjan> Fiora: on my client ^C0,0 is kind of medium light grey.
13:50:32 <Fiora> as long as they're the same color I guess? ^^;;
13:51:13 <oerjan> but that's ok, then i can see that the spoilers are _there_ :P (unlike some of that unicode people use. wtf chooses "invisible" as the representation for unknown characters?)
13:51:58 <fizzie> Unicode has a character for representing unknown characters, that's what arguably should get used.
13:52:51 <fizzie> Though I don't know what should be done if the system can't find a font with a glyph for U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER in it.
13:54:21 <oerjan> maybe that is the problem :P
13:54:59 <ais523> GTK appears to handle unknown characters by rendering a square with the hex digits of the codepoint in it
13:55:03 <ais523> or a rectangle, for the astral planes
14:00:45 <boily> the wonders of unicode, and mystic characters like ᢆ.
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14:03:25 <fizzie> It's not quite square for me even for BMP characters; the aspect ratio is around 0.82.
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15:17:30 <ais523> @tell oerjan I deleted the spam, also expanded an existing spam filter to help stop repeats in the future; there haven't been false positives recently, and if the spam continues I'll expand the filter further in order to do the delete+block automatically (after giving humans a chance to back out)
15:18:41 <Vorpal> ais523, do we require email verification before editing?
15:18:55 <Vorpal> not sure how effective that is, they could probably generate emails too
15:19:13 <ais523> Vorpal: no; we rely people to answer a question about esolangs whose answer is very obvious from the relevant article
15:19:26 <ais523> if they do that, we also require the first edit to not fit a recognised spambot pattern
15:19:39 <Vorpal> yet bots manage to bypass it sometimes?
15:19:47 <ais523> I just expanded the pattern
15:20:04 <ais523> to allow for the latest burst of spam
15:20:18 <ais523> if the first edit does fit the pattern, the user is told to go edit the sandbox instead to prove they're human
15:20:22 <Vorpal> I'm confused anyone would care adding code to handle such a custom "captcha system" for such a small site
15:20:31 <ais523> and the warning page has a clickable submit button
15:20:32 <Vorpal> doesn't seem worth the time
15:20:47 <ais523> so far the spambots appear to be using the submit button on the warning page
15:21:05 <ais523> which is a sufficiently clear sign that they're spambots that if they continue, I'll make it automatically block anyone who clicks it :)
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15:21:48 <Vorpal> ais523, though clicking through two dialogs or such after each other is a fairly common human error
15:21:55 <Vorpal> so best design it to avoid such mistakes
15:22:14 <ais523> Vorpal: yeah; that's part of the reason I haven't set it to block anyone yet
15:22:19 <ais523> even though there's the possibility of appealing
15:23:05 <ais523> (the mere presence of an appeal would be a sign that it was a human…)
15:23:24 <Taneb> Until the spambots catch on!
15:24:22 <ais523> yeah but fighting against really really sophisticated spambots is kind-of fun
15:24:41 <ais523> also they tend to only target Wikipedia, because no other site is really valuable enough to use that sort of spambot tweaking on
15:25:53 <Vorpal> ais523, exactly, which is why I'm surprised that some of them managed to answer the esolang quiz
15:26:03 <Vorpal> why did they bother handling that
15:26:30 <Taneb> Is there data on how many fail it?
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15:26:44 <Vorpal> the access log presumably
15:27:06 <Taneb> Haven't seen you in a while?
15:27:09 <ThatOtherPerson> We'll have a problem once a spambot passes the Turing test
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15:27:42 <ais523> Vorpal: I've heard that captcha-solving tends to be outsourced to humans nowadays
15:27:56 <Vorpal> ais523, and it is worth it on the esolang wiki?
15:28:01 <ais523> Taneb: and yeah, I don't have data on how many fail the captcha, just how many succeed
15:28:05 <ais523> Vorpal: no but they don't know that
15:28:16 <ais523> we put nofollow on all external links but they don't seem to care about that either
15:28:36 <ais523> or the occasional spambot actually does, they try to put a landing page on Esolang that entices humans to click a link
15:28:47 <ais523> and try to SEO the landing page rather than the link target
15:35:06 <ais523> it's a vaguely clever idea, at least
15:35:32 <ais523> Google have been trying to crack down on it for a while now
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16:20:03 <HackEgo> essakki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:20:21 <ais523> gah, there is definitely something wrong with the "strip colors" option in Konversation
16:20:29 <ais523> to me, that was almost all regular color except that the parenthetical is orange
16:26:26 <fizzie> ais523: If it was exactly the parenthetical bit, that's curious, since there's not even any color change directly at the (.
16:26:55 <elliott> essakki: i think you may be a wee bit lost
16:28:23 <ais523> fizzie: that and the full stop after "Main_Page"
16:28:28 <ais523> ooh, I think I know what's happening
16:28:59 <ais523> can someone send something that consists of some white text, some colored text, a link within that colored text, more of that colored text, then some text in a different color?
16:29:40 <ais523> err, by "white text" I mean default color
16:29:59 <ais523> text text http://example.com text text
16:30:19 <ais523> it looks OK when I send it, but perhaps if it's in someone else's message…
16:30:26 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!text text http://example.com text text
16:30:26 <fungot> text text http://example.com text text
16:30:51 <ais523> does fungot strip color codes?
16:31:24 <ais523> ^bf +.>,[.,]<.!action test
16:31:24 <fungot> <CTCP>action test<CTCP>
16:34:18 <fizzie> And "age. (For the ot" was all in one colour.
16:34:22 <fizzie> (I'm kind of food-making here.)
16:36:31 <ais523> it looks to me like recovering after the link is what made the color code actually appear
16:36:32 <fizzie> Some white text some colored text, a link within http://example.com/example.html more of it some text in a different color.
16:36:32 <ais523> all appears white to me
16:36:32 <ais523> what is it about `relcome
16:36:32 <HackEgo> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:36:32 <ais523> yeah, `relcome pretty consistently colors everything after the link
16:36:32 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!abcdef http://example.com. ghi
16:36:32 <fungot> abcdef http://example.com. ghi
16:36:32 <fizzie> `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. | colorize
16:36:34 <HackEgo> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fug
16:36:39 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!abcdef http://exam%C2ple.com. ghi
16:36:40 <fungot> abcdef http://exam%C2ple.com. ghi
16:36:45 <fizzie> Well, that's not right at all. That was all in one color.
16:36:46 <ais523> fizzie: no color in anything but `relcome yet
16:37:00 <HackEgo> bin/colorize \ bin/forget \ bin/fortune \ bin/frink \ bin/interp \ bin/joustreport \ bin/jousturl \ bin/karma \ bin/karma- \ bin/karma+ \ bin/learn \ bin/logurl \ bin/luarocks \ bin/luarocks-admin \ bin/macro \ bin/marco \ bin/oerjan \ bin/ord \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/prefixes \ bin/quoerjan \ bin/quørjan \ bin/r13 \ bin/rainword
16:37:09 <shachaf> bin/colorize has colour too.
16:37:22 <fizzie> `run echo foobarbazquux | colorize
16:37:40 <fizzie> Oh, I guess the lorem ipsum was just too long.
16:37:48 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
16:37:49 <fungot> test: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoter ...
16:38:03 <fizzie> `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. | colorize
16:38:05 <HackEgo> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco.
16:38:12 <ais523> fizzie: that apeared colored for me
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16:38:17 <fizzie> That should be essentially equivalent to relcome.
16:38:21 <ais523> cyan from the full stop onwards
16:38:34 <ais523> where does the cyan start to your view?
16:38:42 <shachaf> I guess I didn't say anything y'all didn't know.
16:38:52 <fizzie> ais523: At the "ge." of "Main_Page."
16:39:10 <ais523> so it's inside the link
16:39:21 <fizzie> ais523: It's the color the end of the link is in.
16:39:31 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!http://exam%C1ple.com. test
16:39:31 <fungot> http://exam%C1ple.com. test
16:39:34 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colorise
16:39:44 <HackEgo> TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ SHLVL=0 \ HOME=/tmp
16:39:48 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colorise
16:39:57 <fizzie> `run echo Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://example.com/different_link.html how about it? Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco. | colorize
16:39:58 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:39:59 <HackEgo> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna http://example.com/different_link.html how about it? Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco.
16:40:03 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `bin/colorise': No such file or directory
16:40:04 <ais523> elliott: how do you know "colorise" is correct in NZ english?
16:40:08 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `bin/colorise': No such file or directory
16:40:22 <coppro> ais523: http://google.ca/
16:40:23 <ais523> shachaf: don't use the bot so fast
16:40:25 <coppro> ais523: http://google.ca/ foo bar baz
16:40:30 <ais523> coppro: second appears orange
16:40:35 <coppro> ais523: yep, that's the bug then
16:40:41 <ais523> coppro: can you tell me what your input was?
16:41:02 <shachaf> `run ln bin/colorize bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise
16:41:03 <HackEgo> ln: target `bin/colourise' is not a directory
16:41:06 <elliott> Where there is a difference between British and US spelling (such as cancelling/canceling and travelled/traveled), the British spelling is almost universally used. With "-our" words like colour/color or behaviour/behavior the spelling of "-our" is always used.[36] One common exception to this rule is fulfill, where New Zealand favours the US usage fulfill over the British fulfil.
16:41:09 <fizzie> ais523: There's just a color-change at the "ca" of the link.
16:41:12 <elliott> In words that may be spelled with either an -ise or an -ize suffix (such as organise/organize) New Zealand English, like Australian English, mainly prefers -ise. This contrasts with American English, where -ize is generally preferred, and British English, where -ise is more frequent but -ize is preferred by some (the Oxford spelling).[37] In New Zealand it is not wrong to use either.
16:41:15 <coppro> ais523: ^C7 just after the period
16:41:18 <shachaf> `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done
16:41:18 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:41:20 <elliott> so that's the right spelling for hackego standard en_NZ
16:41:24 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory \ ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory \ ln: accessing `bin/colorize': No such file or directory
16:41:32 <shachaf> `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done
16:41:38 <ais523> coppro: my theory is so that people will ask "why en_NZ"?
16:41:44 <coppro> ais523: I'm hoping that's the answer
16:41:51 <ais523> I think pretty much every channel regular (apart from the one responsible) has asked that at some point
16:42:06 <elliott> shachaf: that still leaves the original at the incorrect location for en_NZ...
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16:42:12 <elliott> also I don't think hg does links properly
16:42:13 <ais523> elliott: it's ln, not ln -s
16:42:19 <shachaf> elliott: That's a hard link.
16:42:20 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:42:26 <elliott> well those are a pain to maintain
16:42:27 <ais523> but yeah, I'm not sure ln understands hardlinks
16:42:28 <shachaf> `run for f in bin/colorise bin/colourize bin/colourise; do ln bin/colorize $f; done
16:42:30 <HackEgo> ln: creating hard link `bin/colorise': File exists \ ln: creating hard link `bin/colourize': File exists \ ln: creating hard link `bin/colourise': File exists
16:42:32 <elliott> e.g. plenty of things don't maintain them across edits
16:42:43 <ais523> elliott: Emacs has customizable behaviour for that
16:42:44 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information. \ /bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information.
16:42:48 <shachaf> We'll have to find out how hg does it, won't we.
16:42:49 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourise
16:42:50 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourize
16:42:58 <elliott> pretty sure that's taking extra space on the disk
16:42:58 <ais523> which is useful when editing a file which you own, but aren't a member of the group that the file belongs to
16:42:59 <coppro> ais523: why wouldn't ln understand hardlinks
16:43:03 <elliott> anyway are you just trying to waste time
16:43:03 <HackEgo> 735316 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colorise \ 737653 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colorize \ 735415 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourise \ 737132 -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 271 Mar 19 16:42 bin/colourize
16:43:12 <elliott> since it seems pointless to clutter up bin with a bunch of names for the same thing
16:43:13 <ais523> coppro: typo, I meant I wasn't sure hg understood hardlinks
16:43:17 <elliott> especially if it's easy for them to get out of sync
16:43:21 <shachaf> I don't think I'm the one trying to waste time. You're ruining what was a perfectly working system.
16:43:21 <ais523> anyway those files all have a link count of 1
16:43:25 <elliott> (because lots of stuff is inconsistent about whether it maintains hrad links or not)
16:43:30 <ais523> shachaf: so basically, it doesn't work
16:43:31 <elliott> so they will inevitably get out of sync for no reason
16:43:37 <ais523> because hackego doesn't support hardlinks
16:43:47 <shachaf> Fine, let's make them symlinks.
16:43:49 <elliott> perhaps having shell scripts that exec the colourise name would be reasonable, though it seems pointless, but this isn't workable
16:43:55 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
16:43:56 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/colorize': No such file or directory
16:44:09 <HackEgo> bin/colorise \ bin/colourise \ bin/colourize
16:44:10 <ais523> clearly we need a cronjob that randomly renames them now and again
16:44:14 <elliott> `run mv bin/colorize bin/colourise
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16:44:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `run: not found
16:44:34 <ais523> I wonder if putting things in the crontab would actually have an effect
16:45:05 <shachaf> `run mv bin/colourise bin/colo; for f in colorize colourize colorise colourise; do ln -s colo bin/$f; done
16:45:20 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: ( definitely impossible) analysis to figure out how to operate on characters' ascii values in scheme48, use non-blocking i/ o
16:45:32 <elliott> bin is already way too big
16:45:36 <elliott> not sure why you care about this
16:45:42 <HackEgo> bin/relcome:welcome "$@" | colorize
16:45:48 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/colorize/colourise' bin/relcome
16:45:50 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command
16:45:52 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/colorize/colourise/' bin/relcome
16:45:55 <ais523> personally I'd get rid of all the stupid welcome variants
16:45:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | colourise
16:46:00 <ais523> even if relcome exposed a bug
16:46:06 <elliott> god's in his heaven, all's right with the world
16:46:11 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: i came to it but mostly ignored its output into js, or are you just referring to people dying and getting " buggy" though
16:46:11 <shachaf> elliott: You're the one messing up a perfectly working thing.
16:46:13 <HackEgo> fungot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:46:27 <elliott> i don't see anything messed up at all?
16:46:27 <shachaf> `run mv bin/{colourise,rainbow}
16:46:32 <elliott> except ais523's colour filter
16:46:45 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/colurise/rainbow/g' bin/relcome
16:46:52 <elliott> i see you trying to waste a lot of time passive-aggressively because you apparently object to what i'm doing for no apparent reason, though
16:47:00 <elliott> which is kind of a pattern here
16:47:15 <shachaf> I am trying every compromise I can think of to your silly spelling.
16:47:28 <shachaf> colorize was a perfectly working script.
16:47:37 <shachaf> You didn't write it; you don't really get to name it.
16:47:46 <elliott> perhaps you should petition Gregor to change HackEgo's language setting or something equally pointless or omething
16:47:52 <elliott> never seen a bigger molehill mountain
16:48:07 <shachaf> HackEgo's language setting has no bearing on spelling of script names.
16:48:15 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: cannot access /usr/bin/*colour*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access /usr/bin/*colour*: No such file or directory
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16:48:58 <Gregor> Man, "colourise" is a fabulous word. Two cross-Atlantic spelling disagreements in one word!
16:49:30 <kmc> elliott is 17 going on 18
16:49:41 <shachaf> Gregor: I'll disagree with Canadians, thank you very much.
16:50:15 <ThatOtherPerson> "In the early 18th century, English spelling was not standardized. Differences became noticeable after the publishing of influential dictionaries. Today's British English spellings follow, for the most part, those of Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language (1755), whereas many American English spellings follow Noah Webster's An American Dictionary of the English Language (1828).[1
16:50:21 <lambdabot> monochrom says: I am 17-ary, going on 18-ary, I can take curry of you
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17:02:47 <ais523> coppro: bug filed (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317034), thanks for helping me to debug
17:09:31 <HackEgo> essakki: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:10:21 <Taneb> I don't see how this is relevant to our interaction
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17:10:47 <metasepia> CYUL 191700Z 09009KT 5/8SM R06L/3500FT/N R06R/3000V5000FT/U -SN DRSN VV005 M01/M02 A2983 RMK SN8 /S12/ SLP102
17:11:38 <ais523> essakki: do you understand what this channel is for?
17:12:11 <ais523> admittedly, out of the channels that people stumble into by mistake, this one is quite low down the list
17:12:22 <shachaf> ais523: What *is* this channel for?
17:12:49 <ais523> shachaf: it's a community of people who originally started talking to each other because they were interested in esoteric programming languages
17:13:12 <ais523> and mostly still are, although it turned out that there were a bunch of other moderately common interests too
17:13:29 <ais523> so it's a channel for topics that interest esoteric programmers
17:14:08 <shachaf> Is it the languages or the programmers which are esoteric?
17:14:25 <Taneb> Mindset in general, I think, shachaf
17:14:43 <Taneb> Seeing as we have at least one IOCCC winner in the channel, I'd lean to the latter
17:16:05 <Taneb> Once again, not particularly relevant
17:16:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
17:16:37 * boily grabs pockys and watch
17:16:52 <elliott> boily: what's the watch for?
17:16:56 <ais523> Taneb: fwiw, "where are you from?" or the like, if it doesn't have an obvious reason for being asked in context, is pretty much a very clear indicator of a subset of people who turn up to channels with no idea what they're about and never do anything useful
17:17:04 <essakki> bye me want to quit this for my tmrw job
17:17:14 <ais523> I'm not sure why, but this pattern is so far 100% consistent IME; it's probably less consistent than that in practice and I've just been lucky
17:17:45 <Taneb> ais523, I know, I just don't really know how to react
17:17:55 -!- ais523 has kicked essakki in the wrong channel, and hasn't given us enough information to direct us to the right one.
17:17:58 <boily> elliott: it happens that I have the same watch model with random people. I think it's a sign that my qi is particularly aligned today.
17:18:06 <ais523> Taneb: that's the usual reaction
17:18:10 <elliott> boily: is it a mustard watch?
17:18:19 <ais523> fun fact: I originally typoed the nick as "elliott" due to a tab-complete mistake, and had to correct it
17:18:27 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
17:18:31 <boily> elliott: no, I prefer sriracha.
17:18:38 <elliott> ais523: i'm ok with being kicked
17:18:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:18:54 <elliott> otherwise my channel numbering scheme is messed up
17:19:15 <ais523> elliott: yeah but I dislike kicking people for fun
17:19:17 <Vorpal> elliott, hey, I remember you quit for a few months a while ago
17:19:17 <boily> (sorry, that was an easy one.)
17:19:23 <Vorpal> I never asked you what made you come back
17:19:34 <ais523> boily: yeah, the "if it doesn't have an obvious reason for being asked in context" was directed at that and one other situation
17:20:04 <elliott> Vorpal: probably everything was terrible
17:20:11 <elliott> and then I forgot it was terrible
17:20:18 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: trolls would be less consistent in their pattern
17:20:24 <ais523> I'm not quite sure what causes the pattern
17:20:26 <Taneb> I sometimes go on, eg, Omegle, and pretend to have no idea what people mean by "m/f" et al
17:20:37 <elliott> ais523 actually tempted to me to ask where someone is from out of context sometime
17:20:43 <elliott> since it doesn't seem that weird a thing to ask
17:20:46 <ais523> but they turn up to a channel, often pick on individual members of it who look active, ask for a bunch of personal information for no reason, and do nothing else
17:20:55 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is omegle?
17:21:04 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: actually the first time I went on Omegle I actually didn't know
17:21:06 -!- Lymia has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:21:20 <Taneb> Vorpal, it's a website that puts you in an anonymous IM conversation with a random other person
17:21:24 <ThatOtherPerson> Vorpal: a really stupid chatting site where it connects you to a random stranger
17:21:34 <Vorpal> not sure why I would ever want that
17:21:40 <ThatOtherPerson> The site is less stupid than most of the people who lurk around it
17:21:51 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: same idea as chatroulette?
17:21:57 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, that doesn't bode well
17:22:10 <ais523> btw, I have it on moderately good authority that chatroulette was actually interesting once
17:22:11 <Taneb> You can specify tags and it tries to connect you to people with the same tags
17:22:14 <Fiora> I like the Homestuck variant of the site where you can pick a character to RP and be randomly matched with another person
17:22:15 <ais523> before it became famous
17:23:38 <Taneb> Fiora, some of my friends RP on that occasionally
17:23:45 <Fiora> Taneb: the 'm/f' thing reminds me of some wonderful instances of gender confusion too
17:23:55 <Fiora> in another channel there was once a thing where some random newbie joined
17:24:12 <Fiora> and two friends of mine were there (boyfriend and girlfriend) but the guy thought they were both female
17:24:15 <Fiora> so they went with it
17:24:18 <Fiora> and pretended to be lesbians
17:24:21 <Fiora> and it was the funniest thing
17:24:26 <shachaf> elliott: Your irssi window doesn't have to close when you leave a channel.
17:24:33 <Taneb> Did the truth ever emerge?
17:24:44 <Fiora> I don't think the guy figured it out (he left later, didn't come back, just some random person)
17:24:56 <Fiora> I think he was using the 'nick ends with a == female' heuristic
17:25:20 <ais523> Fiora: convincing people on random forums that I'm female without making any statements that pertain to one gender or the other is something I do on occasion
17:25:25 <Arc_Koen> Fiora: I actually had a guy ask me out on a date repeatedly
17:25:30 <Arc_Koen> because he thought I was a female
17:25:45 <ais523> acting very defensive when the question of gender comes up is the usual way
17:25:50 <ais523> (this only works due to people's default gender assumptions)
17:25:50 <Arc_Koen> funny thing is, I tried to break it several times
17:26:02 <ais523> Arc_Koen: online, or real life?
17:26:14 <ais523> online it'd be awkward because all the nicks I've seen you use have military ranks in them
17:26:16 <Arc_Koen> are you implying I might look like a girl
17:26:24 <ais523> and military causes people to assume male because of the way the balance works
17:26:32 <ais523> in real life, most soldiers are male
17:26:33 <shachaf> People used to mistake me for female all the time both online and off.
17:26:45 <shachaf> Nowadays it only happens online.
17:26:46 <ais523> and I have no idea what you look like, and am not really sure it matters
17:27:37 <ais523> well it does in that context I guess
17:27:49 <boily> in my mind, I picture shachaf as an impish imp.
17:28:04 <ais523> I don't normally mentally picture people at all
17:28:19 <shachaf> I am unable to mentally picture people.
17:28:21 <ais523> although I just decided to mentally picture elliott as looking like Michael Jordan, because it's amusingly incongruous
17:29:10 <Arc_Koen> I usually picture people as a few ascii chars
17:29:28 -!- Lymia has joined.
17:29:30 <Arc_Koen> it works pretty well most of the time but then sometimes THEY CHANGE NICKS and I get confused
17:29:40 -!- Taneb has changed nick to atriq.
17:29:46 <shachaf> Taneb...................................
17:29:48 -!- Lymia has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:29:57 -!- Lymia has joined.
17:29:58 -!- Lymia has quit (Changing host).
17:29:58 -!- Lymia has joined.
17:30:03 <Arc_Koen> also when guys have girlish nicks or girls have boyish names it gets weird
17:30:14 -!- boily has changed nick to girlish.
17:30:17 <Fiora> it's hard to tell the difference between white nerd dudes, they all look the same :p
17:30:28 <ais523> Fiora: I disagree, I think
17:30:38 <ais523> it doesn't take long to learn how to tell them apart
17:30:44 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I used to do that but my new client colours everyone in yellow
17:30:52 <girlish> I'm white, I'm definitely a nerd, I'll have to check for the dude part.
17:30:54 <Fiora> I guess they have some bits of entropy?
17:30:59 <ais523> (also quite a few people in this channel know what I actually look like)
17:31:03 <coppro> kmc: remember our discussion about compatibility in Windows?
17:31:07 <coppro> I have one word for you
17:31:14 <Fiora> and like, whether they are "really tall" or "really really really tall"
17:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> istr reading that the reason for the whole 'all x look the same' thing is that you train your face recognition when you're young
17:31:20 <ais523> coppro: we need a Windows dating service
17:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> otoh i also str reading this in a jared diamond book, so...
17:31:44 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, you should name a band that.
17:31:45 <coppro> C:¥Program Files₩My Application\Foo
17:31:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not convinced, it doesn't take me long to determine how to distinguish people in a culture I'm unfamiliar with, if I want to
17:32:26 <Vorpal> <coppro> C:¥Program Files₩My Application\Foo <-- the fuck happened?
17:32:32 * Fiora is mostly kidding on the "can't distinguish part", she's probably not much worse (?) than your average autistic mes
17:32:33 -!- girlish has changed nick to boily.
17:32:35 <ais523> also I get confused between British people frequently, despite having grown up with them
17:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> they showed babies picture of general primates and they were about as good at distinguishing monkeys as humans
17:32:58 <shachaf> I can't distinguish elliott and conal
17:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> and over time they got worse at monkeys, and better at humans, and then it specialised to race
17:33:10 <ais523> is elliottt someone else?
17:33:19 <ais523> also, ec is noticeably different from elliott
17:33:31 <ais523> I haven't talked to conal enough to know how similar to elliott he/she is, though
17:33:43 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: so they trained newborns to recognize monkeys
17:33:53 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:34:09 <Phantom_Hoover> they had them live among the monkeys and learn their ways
17:34:29 <coppro> Vorpal: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/michkap/archive/2005/09/17/469941.aspx
17:34:49 <Vorpal> ais523, I think this might be a thing that varies on individual level quite a bit. I.e. I have a terrible memory wrt. connecting face and name. I can manage names of people I haven't seen just fine. And I can remember faces. I just have a hard time learning the connection.
17:35:24 <Vorpal> coppro, thing is, neither of those previous chars looked like backslash to me.
17:35:25 <ais523> IIRC, quite a bit of apparently weird behaviour by dogs can be explained via assuming that the dogs are assuming that human societal structures work the same way as canine societal structures
17:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> most of the rest of the details are classified, but radiation levels in the congo have been elevated ever since
17:35:30 <Vorpal> coppro, sure you use UTF-8?
17:35:30 <shachaf> I can't really remember names until I know the spelling.
17:35:45 <ais523> Vorpal: it's rather similar for me; however, in teaching, you have to memorise a lot of people
17:35:53 <Arc_Koen> shachaf: I usually invent a spelling
17:35:55 <Vorpal> ais523, that I would utterly fail at
17:36:09 <ais523> this year I was a bit lazy in that, actually; it didn't hurt too much
17:36:21 <ais523> knowing which students are yours and which aren't is more important than being able to distinguish them from each other, though
17:36:26 <ais523> because you can always ask them who they are
17:37:16 <Arc_Koen> he when I was in prepschool my english teacher kept looking at me for one or two months
17:37:18 <ais523> btw, is it weird to mentally translate the names of fictional characters between languages?
17:37:24 <ais523> as in, they have a different name in different translations of the same canon
17:37:30 <Arc_Koen> he never asked me my name or any class-related question
17:37:40 <Arc_Koen> I think we developed a pretty cool look-only relationship
17:38:04 <ais523> and you hear one of the names and translate it to the other mentally to understand better
17:38:20 <ais523> (especially if it happens equally often in each direction)
17:38:41 <ThatOtherPerson> One of my teachers has the tendency to accidentally reassign names
17:38:55 <ThatOtherPerson> For example, he started calling me George for a couple of weeks once
17:39:35 <ais523> the most extreme technique involves arbitrarily assigning a name to each of your students, then only using that name
17:39:51 <Arc_Koen> and then one day you tell him your actual name, and he says "really? you look a lot like george"
17:39:54 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb.
17:40:39 <HackEgo> back: Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:41:31 <HackEgo> A: B: C: D: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:42:35 <Arc_Koen> ?mih ees uoy ,rorrim a ni kool uoy nehw hguoht
17:42:37 <Taneb> Re: telling people apart, I find it very hard to tell people apart if I meet them around the same time and haven't interacted uch with them
17:43:51 <Arc_Koen> (btw is the boardgamegeek down or something?)
17:44:29 <ThatOtherPerson> I feel rather awkward when people come up to me and say, "Hey David, how are you doing?" and I can't remember ever seeing them before in my entire life
17:45:03 <Taneb> A few weeks ago, someone came up to me and said "Hey, Nathan! Hi-five!"
17:45:14 <Taneb> Never figured out who he was
17:45:19 <Arc_Koen> when that happens I usually know that I know them, I just can't tell from where
17:45:39 <Arc_Koen> soooo keep stalling the conversation until I can figure it out
17:45:54 <elliott> Taneb: that was obviously me
17:46:06 <ais523> Taneb: are you actually called Nathan?
17:46:10 <ais523> I guess the story works both ways
17:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i have been approached by multiple people to talk about the way i climb stairs
17:46:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how do you climb stairs
17:46:31 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: is it particularly unusual?
17:46:42 <Arc_Koen> Taneb: sometimes don't you feel sad that your name came so close from being a palydrome, but missed by one letter?
17:46:56 <ais523> admittedly, the method I got used to of descending a flight of stairs without using any of the individual stairs was a little unusual
17:47:25 <Taneb> I think it's a palindrome in the original Hebrew
17:47:40 <ais523> well Hebrew doesn't write vowels, and th is presumably one letter
17:47:50 <ais523> so it'd transliterate most accurately as nþn, which is a palindrom
17:48:22 <shachaf> ais523: Hebrew uses a different n at the end of a word.
17:48:25 <Arc_Koen> yeah but then wouldn't you feel sad that the name came so close to being stable though 180° rotation
17:48:26 <shachaf> I don't know if you count that.
17:48:33 <ais523> I don't know if I count that either
17:48:39 <ais523> I guess handwritten English uses a different s
17:48:46 <ais523> and yet words can still be considered palindromes if they end and start with s
17:48:50 <ais523> so I guess I don't count it
17:49:14 <shachaf> This is actually a different letter as in a different codepoint/keyboard key/etc.
17:49:44 <ais523> well it is in Greek too
17:50:02 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: actually, it's not at the end of the world
17:50:12 <ais523> but after a point where you have to break the writing (like "g", except if you're French)
17:50:30 <ais523> the top of the s curls round to the bottom left if it's joining to something on the left
17:50:42 <Arc_Koen> I think the only letter we write differently in french depending on its position is n
17:50:47 <ais523> in France, it's usual (even when writing English) to connect the s to the previous letter regardless of anything
17:50:57 <elliott> nothing is usual in france
17:51:05 <Arc_Koen> yes, in france we connect everything
17:51:14 <ais523> you can't do it for the first letter of a word, though, I guess
17:51:35 <Arc_Koen> if in the first position it looks more like a script n
17:51:36 <ais523> Arc_Koen: what context does n change in?
17:51:58 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: I once went several months in a row without writing anything
17:52:09 <ais523> I use computers so much more than pencil/paper
17:52:17 <Arc_Koen> if it's in the middle or end of a word the thingy goes down to the left so it looks like two bridges instead of just the one
17:52:18 <Taneb> But yeah, in Hebrew Nathan is Nun-Tav-Nun?
17:53:11 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:53:34 <Taneb> Arc_Koen, I'm giving the names of the letters
17:54:01 <Arc_Koen> Taneb, I'm giving a joke (you can find the name of that joke yourself)
17:55:22 <ThatOtherPerson> According to Google Translate, "David" is a palindrome in Hebrew
17:55:40 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, the wikipedia page for "Nathan (given name)" on Wikipedia has a picture of Nathan talking to David
17:55:46 <Taneb> Obviously we were meant for eachother
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17:56:47 <shachaf> ThatOtherPerson: Now try "uncle" and "water heater".
17:57:09 <ais523> shachaf: you can't do that, it's illegal!
17:58:16 * boily points to himself ←
17:58:19 <shachaf> (These are pronounced "dod" and "dud" respectively.)
17:58:29 <shachaf> (That's "dud" as in "dude" but short. Not as in a dud.)
17:59:11 <Taneb> We had a sort of drizzle
17:59:19 <Vorpal> I seem to remember you complain about snow a few weeks ago :P
17:59:23 <ais523> Vorpal: you live in Scandinavia
17:59:28 <ThatOtherPerson> I don't think it's snowed where I am for several hundred years
17:59:32 <ais523> there was sleet in Birmingham a couple of days ago
17:59:42 <Vorpal> ais523, well the spring is rather late this year
17:59:58 <Taneb> We're in about the fifth spring of the year
18:00:04 <Taneb> It's getting ridiculous
18:00:07 <Vorpal> ThatOtherPerson, approx where is that?
18:01:13 <Vorpal> yeah I don't think it snowed there any time recently
18:01:15 <metasepia> OEDF 191700Z 34008KT CAVOK 19/10 Q1012 NOSIG
18:01:32 <ais523> oh hmm, metasepia is somehow connected with radio
18:01:40 <metasepia> ESOE 191750Z 06018KT 9999 FEW021 BKN026 M05/M10 Q1014 RESN
18:01:47 <ais523> this makes it very slightly less mysterious
18:01:55 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Quitte).
18:02:10 <ais523> I could ask what it does, but that would feel like a copout
18:02:24 <boily> I like my bot mysterious.
18:02:29 <Vorpal> boily, wait, OEDF has the temperature in farenheit doesn't it? My metar is rusty
18:02:59 <metasepia> NZSP 191750Z 15012KT 4800 IC BR BKN010 OVC050 M50/ A2824 RMK CLN AIR 14009KT ALL WNDS GRID
18:03:04 <Taneb> I assume OEDF stands for "Oxford English Dictionary: French edition"
18:03:14 <boily> Vorpal: it wouldn't make no sense. everything is SI, except for north american metars, where there are some customary units mixed in.
18:03:25 <Vorpal> boily, if you know what "ALL WNDS GRID" means I would really like to know
18:03:29 <boily> Taneb: OEDF is king fahd airport, at damam.
18:03:33 <Vorpal> boily, oh right, M was minus
18:03:55 <Vorpal> boily, I suspect it means they use a different coordinate system, since NZSP is the south pole
18:04:03 <Taneb> Did you ever add a IATA to ICAO converter, boily?@
18:04:21 <Vorpal> boily, and thus long/lat, as well as compass directions get a bit wonky
18:04:52 <boily> Taneb: no, not yet. besides, another checklist item should be to have an official metasepia suggestion checklist.
18:04:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, does anyone use anything except ICAO?
18:05:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: some regions of some countries take preserving their language very seriously
18:05:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, I mean for weather. Obviously IATA is used for luggage or whatever
18:05:42 -!- tos9 has left.
18:05:47 <boily> we have the OQLF, which is the same thing.
18:06:36 <ais523> incidentally, the region Microsoft asks for "country or region" when signing up
18:06:43 <Vorpal> boily, I like the M50/ temperature of NZSP.
18:06:47 <Taneb> Vorpal, my dad works in the air industry and keeps using IATA codes so I learn them easuer
18:06:48 <Vorpal> it makes me happy I'm elsewhere
18:06:49 <ais523> is in order to avoid implying anything about border disputes (which annoys several countries)
18:06:49 <Phantom_Hoover> is it just me or are the french really bitter that english is the lingua franca now
18:07:12 <ais523> e.g. it avoids offending Taiwan, whilst also avoiding offending the mainland Chinese government by implying that Taiwan is a country
18:07:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think it's just that the french and the english have got on with eachother for a grand total of maybe 4 years in the last 1000
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18:08:04 <lmt> the french are really better any time there's any suggestion that they are not the greatest ever
18:08:10 <lmt> really bitter
18:08:25 <ais523> Taneb: the french and english are on decent terms atm
18:08:39 <ais523> also they were on pretty good terms during the world wars
18:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i think it's a testament to how awful the english are that scotland was able to find common ground with france over them
18:08:48 <Taneb> ais523, BUT HOW LONG WILL IT LAST
18:08:50 <ais523> but yes, lots of fighting further into history
18:09:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: to be fair, it's reasonable for scotland to consider england to be awful
18:09:13 <ais523> we used to invade repeatedly
18:09:19 <ais523> even when we had no realistic chance of winning
18:09:28 <ais523> because… actually I don't know why
18:10:04 <Taneb> ais523, they set fire to the church in Hexham
18:10:17 <ais523> Taneb: who, the english or scots or both?
18:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, is this because it's an english church or just because it's a church
18:11:34 <Taneb> The first time it was the Danes
18:12:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, considering the horrible deeds committed in the names of the church through the history, and how boring the English church is supposed to be, I would say both
18:12:32 <Taneb> Ah, I live in a country that's never been conquered, if you ignore the four or so times it was conquered
18:12:34 <ais523> Vorpal: that's a weird correlation, really
18:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> so the church is terrible because they do all sorts of fascinatingly awful thing
18:12:51 <ais523> the anglican church is inded reasonably boring
18:12:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, WHILE BEING BORING!
18:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> and it's terrible because they're renowned for being meek to a fault
18:13:07 <ais523> and as a result is quite low on the scale of spectacular religious misdeeds
18:13:17 <ais523> yeah, Phantom_Hoover is commenting on the same thing as me
18:13:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes. totally logical
18:13:28 <boily> our church is so boring that when the state really separated itself from the church, it was called «révolution tranquille».
18:13:32 <Lymia> I'm going to attempt a bfjoust evolver one more time, this time, trying something that'll hopefully make it not suck.
18:13:51 <Vorpal> anyway isn't the "boring anglican church" relatively modern
18:13:59 <Vorpal> as in, the past few hundred years or so
18:14:18 <Phantom_Hoover> they settled down once they finished persecuting the catholics
18:14:19 <Lymia> ais523, the main difference is that I'm going to be trying to basically evolve a code generator, rather than the code itself. It might work better?
18:14:22 <ais523> there was certainly a lot of religious strife between catholics and protestants during Tudor times
18:14:25 <Lymia> I don't have the mutation itertation coded yet.
18:14:34 <ais523> this lead to a law in the UK, which still stands, which prevents Catholics becoming monarchs
18:14:47 <ais523> recently the EU told us to get rid of it because it was religious discrimination, or something
18:14:49 <Phantom_Hoover> (meanwhile the mainland catholic church became crazy polarised, presumably due to evaporative cooling)
18:14:58 <ais523> Lymia: seems interesting
18:16:08 <Taneb> ais523, I don't remember seeing that on the front page of the Express
18:16:19 <ais523> Taneb: do you read the Express every day?
18:16:25 <Taneb> Just the front page
18:16:55 <coppro> elliott: you know haskell help me
18:17:19 <coppro> elliott: why does the expression problem suck
18:17:26 <Taneb> I read the front pages of a lot of newspapers
18:17:54 <coppro> elliott: specifically, why is it hard to say I have a class Foo, and refine it to class Bar, but then if I have a Foo I can't reasonably tell if it's a Bar
18:18:43 <coppro> a type that is an instance of Foo
18:18:44 <elliott> that's not really anything to do with the expression problem IMO (and the expression problem is more an expression of inherent constraints -- coding behaviour vs. coding data -- than something you can solve)... on a technical level it would violate parametricity
18:18:51 <elliott> but in general I'm sceptical of typeclass hierarchies like that
18:19:01 <shachaf> What is "refine"? A subclass?
18:19:02 <Gregor> <ais523> this lead to a law in the UK, which still stands, which prevents Catholics becoming monarchs // aren't there much BIGGER obstacles X-D
18:19:03 <coppro> elliott: what would you generally propose instead?
18:19:18 <ais523> Gregor: well it's not always trivial to work out
18:19:26 <ais523> some time after tony blair resigned
18:19:30 <ais523> it became public that he was catholic
18:19:37 <ais523> and the press were gloating over this for no apparent reason
18:19:40 <coppro> ais523: didn't he convert?
18:19:45 <Taneb> I thought he converted, yeah
18:20:05 <ais523> coppro: also how do you know this stuff, you aren't even british
18:20:18 <coppro> ais523: I follow foreign news occasionally
18:20:33 <elliott> coppro: well, that type of design is something I associate more with OOP type stuff (although even then instanceof type things tend to be discouraged), so it really depends on the probelm, there's no generic mapping of designs... I usually start with modelling my problem with plain old data (sometimes this data is a record of behaviour: functions, monadic actions etc.) before going to typeclasses
18:21:38 <coppro> I'm trying to model some parliamentary procedure, and I think a typeclass for motions is most appropriate because it's extensible. But then subclasses become awkward, for instance, the motion to amend.
18:21:43 <Lymia> Population generation, check.
18:21:45 <Lymia> Evaluation, check.
18:21:52 <Lymia> Now for the "fun" part v.v;
18:22:09 <elliott> coppro: a typeclass in no more or less extensible than data, in general
18:22:18 <elliott> @where existential-typeclass-antipattern
18:22:18 <lambdabot> I know nothing about existential-typeclass-antipattern.
18:22:23 <lambdabot> http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/
18:22:31 <shachaf> @where existential-antipattern
18:22:31 <lambdabot> "Haskell Antipattern: Existential Typeclass" by Luke Palmer at <http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/haskell-antipattern-existential-typeclass/>
18:22:38 <elliott> also I think the FAQ talks about data representation along thesel ines
18:22:39 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/FAQ
18:22:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ski-style': not found
18:22:43 <ais523> elliott: instead of instanceof, you can have an abstract getter method that returns what sort of class it is
18:22:45 <ais523> that doesn't break anything
18:23:16 <ais523> (in general, the answer to "how do I do dubious OO operation X without violating Y" is "use more abstract")
18:24:22 <coppro> elliott: that makes a lot of sense
18:24:41 <shachaf> I don't think existential so-and-so is as much of an antipattern as people claim.
18:24:45 <shachaf> But sometimes it's way misused.
18:24:49 <coppro> elliott: but the problem is still one of "I have fields which are not applicable to all versions of the type"
18:25:04 <coppro> and filling things up with undefineds seems poor
18:25:24 <ais523> coppro: huh, this is close to the problem Anarchy is intended to solve
18:25:35 <elliott> well, you can just use Maybe if it's "really" that simple. or perhaps better: another data type which contains (aggregation, in OOP terms) the subset that all satisfy, as well as the additional information
18:26:00 <ais523> incidentally, algol 68 has an undefined-like value
18:26:06 <ais523> except it's not guaranteed to throw an error
18:26:15 <ais523> it's just an arbitrary value of whatever type it's expected to be a value of
18:26:26 <coppro> ais523: the second is not useful. I'm unsure about Anarchy since I don't know what it is
18:26:49 <ais523> coppro: it's an unfinished esolang, which may be theoretically impossible
18:27:40 <coppro> elliott: yeah, I might go with a sub-data-type
18:27:42 <Taneb> I hope Feather compiles into it
18:27:44 <coppro> and just have it stored in a Maybe
18:27:54 <coppro> but it *does* raise the question of whether there is a typeclass equivalent
18:27:54 <elliott> that's inverse to what I was thinking
18:27:56 <Taneb> Or you could use a super-data type?
18:28:06 <elliott> instead of data S = S { ..., t :: Maybe T }, data T = ...
18:28:15 <elliott> data S = S { ... }, data T = T { s :: S, ... }
18:28:20 <coppro> elliott: oh, no, that doesn't work though
18:28:25 <coppro> because then I can't recover the T from the S
18:28:26 <elliott> then s projects out your S from your T
18:28:40 <elliott> yes, but generally you shouldn't want to... it's too situation-specific to really say though
18:28:52 <Taneb> You could with lenses
18:29:54 <Taneb> data S = S { ... }; data T = T { _s :: s, ...}; makeLenses ''T; thisT & s %~ modifyS
18:30:37 <coppro> Taneb: that doens't solve the homogenous container problem
18:31:02 <Taneb> Maybe may be the way to go
18:31:07 <elliott> there is no homogenous container problem. every heterogeneous container is a homogeneous container where the underlying interface is being hidden
18:31:21 <coppro> elliott: the problem is that the underlying heterogeneity needs to be preserved
18:34:05 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, it's not that scary, it just allows you to abuse the type system more so than any other language
18:34:05 <Taneb> Even more so if you enable some GHC extensions
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18:34:49 <ThatOtherPerson> but I would have to know Haskell to know what that even means
18:34:58 <Taneb> That would blur the line between esolang and research language
18:35:17 <ais523> Taneb: that's a great line to blur
18:35:30 <ais523> in fact, those are way better than esolangs designed to be useless
18:35:30 <elliott> ThatOtherPerson: that's just called Agda really
18:35:37 <ais523> oh, I forgot about Agda
18:35:43 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: yeah, definitely check out Agda
18:35:59 <elliott> probably don't check out agda if haskell scares you.
18:36:03 <ais523> everyone deserves to be allowed to experience it at least one
18:36:08 <ais523> elliott: yeah but with agda it's OK to be scared
18:36:20 <shachaf> ais523: larrytheliquid went straight from Ruby to Agda!
18:36:28 <ais523> things like people, in practice, normally requiring their editor to do type inference
18:36:33 <ais523> in order to be able to write it
18:39:02 <ais523> elliott: btw, the tdwtf forums seem to have a new troll: http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/27342.aspx
18:39:10 <ais523> person who is out of place
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18:40:36 <Taneb> ais523, is he saying things like "m/f" and "what country r u"?
18:41:11 <ais523> if you're interested you can follow the link
18:41:32 <Taneb> It looks like fungot decided to visit the fora
18:41:32 <fungot> Taneb: er. they are independent just loop over them for each time the programmer writes in-range deep inside the kernel without messing up the mechanics."
18:42:17 <ais523> Taneb: it doesn't seem so markov chain to me
18:42:31 <ais523> they're trying to edit the credits for mozilla, the responsible person is ignoring them
18:42:38 <ais523> so they're asking how they can get the responsible person to stop ignoring them
18:43:32 <Taneb> I somehow got convinced the OP was joe.edwards
18:43:47 <ais523> huh, Humble Bundle are trying to sell me a game I already own, and that they know I already own because they sold it to me
18:44:00 <lmt> so buy it again
18:44:13 <lmt> past performance is the best predictor of future performance
18:49:07 <fizzie> Chrome version history table; "24 -- Support for MathML -- 25 -- Disabled MathML support for the time being". The Chrome gives, the Chrome takes away.
18:50:05 <fizzie> ais523: To be fair, they're also explaining the whole new weekly-deal scheme while they're doing it.
18:50:33 <ais523> if they're going to spam me every week, though, I'm going to unsubscribe
18:50:39 <ais523> and possibly miss other things they want to send me
18:51:33 <fizzie> I don't think they're going to do that. Or at the very least they'd perhaps make the "announce every weekly sale" mailing opt-out-or-in.
18:51:40 <boily> I hate electro-static discharges.
18:52:09 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:52:10 <fizzie> They're also selling some merchandise you might not already own.
18:52:21 <ais523> yes but I'm not so interested in Bastion merchandise
18:52:37 <Taneb> The internal battery in my Pokemon Emerald has died
18:53:28 <ais523> Taneb: that's usual around now
18:53:39 <ais523> sadly, unlike in Ruby/Sapphire, it doesn't make it any easier to rig the RNG
18:53:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa).
18:55:43 <boily> Taneb has died again, it seems.
18:56:10 -!- Bike has joined.
18:56:29 <fizzie> Speaking with things with counters, there's this Finnish version of the "We the People" petitions -- if a petition gets over 50k signatures, the parliament needs to... uh, at least officially look at it -- and they opened the petition for making the laws about marriage gender-neutral; it's gotten 91433 signatures in the 21 hours it's been open, which is probably several magnitudes faster than ...
18:56:35 <fizzie> ... all the other such petitions. (Thus far only one has ever gone over the 50k mark.)
18:57:02 <Lumpio-> It'll probably get deleted for cheating
18:57:43 <fizzie> It's run by the gummint and they do strong (FSVO strong) authentication, so hopefully it's not that likely to be spurious.
18:57:53 <ais523> fizzie: do you think it's been hacked? or just that it's a really major hot topic?
18:58:02 <elliott> there aren't 91,433 people in finland, though.
18:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> the only one i remember was that all the rioters should be hanged, or perhaps just given some kind of jail sentence
18:58:50 <fizzie> ais523: I think it's legit, though the rate of new signatures has been curiously constant -- see the yellow line in http://ypcs.fi/tahdon2013/ -- but maybe there's a technical reason for that.
18:59:35 <boily> IIRC, but glued to the other sentence end.
18:59:55 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: A majority of the petitions on the Finnish site are pretty dumb too.
19:00:29 <Phantom_Hoover> the one with the most signatures is "stop the badger cull"
19:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> the runner up is to keep all the bulgarians and romanians out
19:01:00 <fizzie> Also, http://kannatusilmoitukset.fi/ -- another graph-page only in Finnish -- plots the history of all of them, hourly; the almost-vertical blue line at the end is the marriage equality thing.
19:01:03 <elliott> iirc like 90% of the petitions were about arresting and/or hanging people and/or just generally being a little bit more 19th century if you please
19:01:14 <elliott> i don't know where 19 came from there
19:01:20 <elliott> let's just say the 19th century was the worst century
19:01:58 <fizzie> Many of the other petitions have also gotten small bumps during today, too, presumably because people, after bothering to verify themselves to the system, have gone and poked several.
19:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, no, the rioters one is "Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits."
19:03:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the worrying part is that the benefits system is so used to complexity that implementing that would probably cost less than it saves
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19:04:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no, less was intentional
19:04:10 <ais523> read the rest of the sentence
19:04:50 <Bike> are we going to draw and quarter someone
19:05:10 <ais523> however, it seems to me likely to be a bad idea to take a bunch of people who are already shown to be entirely willing to break the law and cause widespread property damage, and decide to cut off any legal means for them to obtain food and shelter
19:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-21846817 damn immigrants coming over here and sponging off our hospitals and schools
19:05:45 <kmc> Phantom_Daily_Mail
19:05:47 <ais523> at that point, they have no logical reason not to go on a widespread looting spree
19:05:51 <ais523> as an alternative to starving
19:05:54 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/aa4cdb56d9a1457f4f3d748cb85d1831/tumblr_mjigpgqsqV1qm9r09o1_400.jpg ooh
19:06:41 <ais523> kmc: not sure if you read the story, but the BBC is apparently in favour of that particular immigrant
19:06:56 <fizzie> The Finnish top 10 list contains, in order: 1) the marriage thing; 2) a petition to ban energy drinks for people under 16 years old; 3) one to fix the copyright legislation; 4) one to legalize use and posession of cannabis; 5) one to kill more top predators (to summarize); 6) one to arrange a vote on whether Finland should get out of the EU; 7) one about revamping the social security rules to ...
19:07:02 <fizzie> ... have a fixed base income for everyone; 8) one to make learning Swedish non-mandatory; 9) one to get rid of DST; and 10) one about something to do with shooting ranges and their environmental impact.
19:07:05 <boily> Bike: eeeeh... what are those?
19:07:17 <Bike> predatory ones
19:07:58 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Only if you can also vote in Finland.
19:08:10 <Bike> i read "use and possession of cannibals" for a second, that sounds more exciting
19:08:36 <boily> what's the average cost for a 3½ in Helsinki?
19:09:18 <fizzie> Bike: I think "legalize weed" is going to be very popular in many such petition systems. (Except perhaps if it's already legal in the place.)
19:09:37 <fizzie> I don't know what a 3½ is.
19:09:58 <lmt> my penis size
19:10:42 <shachaf> I think I can vote in Finland!
19:10:45 <boily> fizzie: that's how we designate appartment sizes. a 3½ is: one living room, one bedroom, one kitchen and one bathroom (the ½).
19:10:58 <Fiora> fizzie: those sound a lot better than ours, really :/
19:11:06 <Fiora> I think last I heard they were voting up one for a death star
19:11:31 <shachaf> I,I http://www.theonion.com/articles/opposition-to-soda-ban-sad-proof-that-americans-st,31658/
19:11:32 <ThatOtherPerson> Fiora: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking
19:11:36 <fizzie> boily: Oh; we'd call that a "kaksio" (approx. a "double") since it has two rooms -- the livingroom and the bedroom -- that really count.
19:11:50 <elliott> i liked that one whitehouse petition
19:11:54 <fizzie> boily: The one with a living room and two bedrooms is a "kolmio", lit. "a triangle".
19:12:04 <Fiora> ThatOtherPerson: that response is actually wonderful
19:12:09 <elliott> "We demand a vapid, condescending, meaningless, politically safe response to this petition."
19:12:56 * Fiora had no idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Probe%2B existed, that is really cool!
19:13:08 <ais523> I love the fact that force fields actually exist
19:13:10 <ais523> even if they're mostly impractical
19:13:55 <ais523> ThatOtherPerson: some sort of plasma thing
19:13:58 <Fiora> I wonder how much power they get from the solar arrays at that distance
19:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought that said 'solar probe b' and then i confused it with gravity probe b
19:14:11 <fizzie> boily: Anyhow, the price range inside Helsinki varies really much depending on location (and other kind of things), but I picked a random ad from one of the major websites, for a 50 m^2 two-rooms-plus-open-kitchen-and-bathroom in a reasonably central location, and that's 250000 EUR.
19:14:46 <fizzie> boily: If you meant "to buy" as opposed to "to rent", that is.
19:15:07 <elliott> i was hoping the %2B was a !
19:15:32 <ais523> it's the first visible printable character
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19:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> i also felt very cheated when i found out SOHO isn't actually anywhere near the sun
19:16:00 <elliott> shut up ais523. you cannot ruin Space Probe! for me
19:16:04 <fizzie> Fiora: Well, it was the top ten. The bottom ten is pretty stupid, for example.
19:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> because all the space books i had as a child drew it as being really close
19:17:20 <elliott> Radixal!!!! is an esoteric language created collaboratively by the #esoteric IRC channel on 7 December Category:2012.
19:17:31 <ThatOtherPerson> ais523: ah, when you said that I was reminded of this: http://gizmodo.com/5044624/ultrasound-haptic-devices-can-project-tactile-shapes-into-thin-air
19:17:32 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, and the 3½" floppies seem to retail at about 0.50 EUR/piece if you buy a box of 10. (Verbatim 3.5" MF2HD DataLife brand.)
19:17:59 <ThatOtherPerson> http://techcrunch.com/2008/09/03/haptic-system-uses-ultrasound-to-give-feel-to-objects-that-aren%E2%80%99t-there/
19:18:03 <ais523> fizzie: I don't think I asked the question, but still interesting to know
19:18:07 <ais523> that's rather more expensive than it used to be
19:18:16 <ais523> but given that they're much more of a specialist item nowadays, that's not surprising
19:18:34 <fizzie> ais523: You suggested that 3½ meant a floppy disk standard, which sort of implies a question, even if it doesn't ask it.
19:18:39 <boily> fizzie: I'm more interested by the "rent". besides, how much is 50m² in square feet?
19:18:56 <ais523> boily: there are 3¼ feet in a metre
19:19:01 <shachaf> @google 50 square meters in square feet
19:19:02 <lambdabot> http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet-table.htm
19:19:02 <lambdabot> Title: Square Meters to Square Feet table
19:19:46 <fizzie> ais523: 3¼² is sufficiently close to 10 in order for 10 to be good enough for an order-of-magnitude conversions.
19:20:02 <fizzie> boily: Let's see a rent, then.
19:20:07 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:20:50 <fizzie> ais523: Also, the store I checked is only selling that single brand of 3½" floppies; they used to have more of a selection, before.
19:20:52 <shachaf> Hmm, that doesn't quite work.
19:21:02 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: my client agrees with foxfire's. here's something for you
19:21:54 <ThatOtherPerson> fungot: Why thank you. I'd be delighted to help you with your client's request.
19:21:55 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: getting another error now ;can't bind name in null syntactic environment as system-global-env's parent.
19:22:01 <Phantom_Hoover> my dad used to swear by his belief that pi was exactly 22/7
19:22:27 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: a political push to use one word for the first
19:22:52 <fizzie> boily: That seems to be around 1000-1500 EUR/month, for similar size in a similar place. You can go a lot cheaper by going further away from the city centre, naturally.
19:24:04 <Phantom_Hoover> does this mean if you have two things spinning in opposite directions they'll repel each other
19:24:21 <fizzie> Well, maybe not a "lot", but down to 700-750 EUR/month or something.
19:24:45 <boily> that is expensive!
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19:25:23 <fizzie> There's a rather ridiculous bubble in housing prices when comparing Helsinki (and the surrounding region) to the rest of the country.
19:25:52 <lmt> one day i will move to finland and become finnish
19:26:56 <boily> fizzie: in Montréal, a 3½ is around 500~800 $/month.
19:27:28 <fizzie> boily: How big is that "3½" in your units, then?
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19:28:01 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I didn't. *shame*
19:28:29 <boily> fizzie: it's around 550 sq. ft., so a little bit larger than your heathen 50 m² :p
19:28:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I've done all my mandatory Swedish already, so it's a matter of making sure everyone else gets to suffer too.
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19:29:24 <shachaf> @google 550 sq. ft. in sq. m
19:29:25 <lambdabot> http://www.metric-conversions.org/area/square-meters-to-square-feet.htm
19:29:25 <lambdabot> Title: Square Meters to Square Feet conversion
19:29:29 <boily> swedish is good for your health. you get to be able to order swedish food in swedish restaurants!
19:29:52 <olsner> swedish restaurants generally don't serve swedish food though
19:29:55 <lmt> order swedish fitta
19:31:12 <kmc> helsinki is super expensive in all ways, isn't it
19:31:33 <elliott> the worst cost is to your soul
19:31:43 <fizzie> boily: Our two-rooms-and-bathroom-and-really-tiny-kitchen place in the university student union housing was somewhere around 300-400 EUR/month, and it was... maybe 450 sq. feet. But of course that's quite different than renting from the open market.
19:32:05 <kmc> http://sfist.com/2013/03/07/map_average_rent_for_1br_in_san_fra.php
19:32:20 <shachaf> Cale is giving a monad tutorial in #haskell-in-depth
19:32:24 <shachaf> what has the world come to
19:32:34 <kmc> doesn't the topic say "NO MONAD TUTORIALS"
19:32:37 <shachaf> that is literally the thing you're not supposed to talk about
19:32:50 <fizzie> kmc: I'm not sure how "super", compared to those really expensive places, but I understand it is quite pricy.
19:33:01 <Bike> all monad tutorials all the time
19:33:05 <Bike> the monad channel
19:33:19 <shachaf> monad tutorials, moproblems
19:33:33 <elliott> kmc: I've banned two people in #haskell! little do they know my plan to slowly, gradually ban everyone in the universe. and then you can come back and it will be perfect.
19:33:43 <elliott> don't tell anyone it's secret.
19:33:50 <lmt> have you banned cale
19:33:56 <shachaf> elliott: i will keep its secrecy secret
19:33:59 <lmt> for not shutting the hell up about monads
19:34:22 <boily> monads are good. helsinki is good. everything is good, except monad tutorials.
19:34:32 <boily> (or maybe helsinki tutorials, but I haven't seen any of them yet.)
19:34:37 <kmc> i'm not sure whether cost / area is a good metric for urban apartments
19:34:48 <Bike> a "nad tutorial" seems sexual
19:35:01 <shachaf> kmc would not come back to #haskell if he was the last person on earth
19:35:16 <lmt> i used to go to #haskell
19:35:20 <lmt> worst time of my life
19:35:36 <Bike> one time i went to #haskell and now i only have one kidney
19:35:58 <shachaf> That's one kidney more than the average bicycle.
19:36:56 <boily> what he didn't say is that he started with three kidneys, all to himself.
19:37:18 <Bike> i DESERVED those kidneys you fuckers
19:37:19 <kmc> people pay for location more than space
19:37:31 <shachaf> #haskell robs the rich and gives to the poor
19:37:44 <kmc> so I think cost / bedrooms is better, because that's effectively how much you can split it
19:37:52 <kmc> even that is tricky
19:38:02 <fizzie> The only visualization about apartment prices in Helsinki I could find is about the average price to buy per square metre (which goes from 500 to 5000 depending on the city region), but that of course depends somewhat on the distribution of apartment sizes in the location.
19:38:17 <kmc> in NY there are a lot of listings for "flex 3BR" which means "2BR and you could put a shitty temporary wall in the living room and get a third bedroom if you are OK with having almost no living room"
19:39:54 <fizzie> Some of the new places they're building around here have a designed-in place for an optional divider wall if you want to split half of the living room into an extra bedroom.
19:40:34 <fizzie> It's marked with a dashed line in the plans they give in the brochure.
19:40:45 <boily> funny to see how across languages the same apartment is mapped to different digits. 3½ in French, kaksio in Finnish and 1BR in English.
19:41:59 <ais523> boily: it reminds me of floor numbering
19:42:07 <ais523> in the UK, floor "1" is the floor above the ground floor
19:42:19 <ais523> in areas with a lot of foreign visitors, the ground floor is typically numbered "0" to reduce confusion to some extent
19:43:56 <FreeFull> Buildings should be sunk into the ground in such a way so there is a floor that is halfway in
19:44:01 <FreeFull> And that would be the 0th floor
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19:44:14 <ais523> FreeFull: that sort of thing is quite common in the UK too
19:44:25 <fizzie> Our set of words go "yksiö" (single-person apartment, usually in a single room + bathroom, but not always), "kaksio" (generally childless couples; bedroom, living room, plus the mandatory stuff), "kolmio" (two bedrooms, living room, and the rest; most common size to get after the first child), "neliö" (ditto but three bedrooms) -- those all have roots in the cardinal numbers, "yksi", ...
19:44:31 <fizzie> ... "kaksi", "kolme", "neljä" -- and then it kind of stops, and for larger places you probably just give room counts.
19:44:38 <ais523> there are multiple buildings in central birmingham with two ground floors that have another floor between them (which might or might not also be a ground floor)
19:44:39 <fizzie> They do have a set of standard abbreviations for apartment ads, though.
19:44:48 <ais523> due to it being so inconsistent in terms of height
19:45:45 <fizzie> Like "3H+K+KPH" is "three rooms plus kitchen plus bathroom", and so on; so you can just use those for larger places.
19:46:07 <lmt> but is the apartment specification language turing-complete
19:46:42 <lmt> 3H+K+KPHQ9+
19:46:58 <fizzie> I don't think it is. Not that I speak it fluently.
19:47:06 <fizzie> I'm not sure what this "P" is, for example.
19:47:27 <lmt> push onto the stack
19:48:04 <Bike> the stack of discarded furniture
19:48:13 <fizzie> And there's this 250 square metre (2690 sq.ft.) place -- for rent, 2600 EUR/month -- that's described with "5 h, k, rt, th, ask.h, kh, wc, sauna".
19:49:14 <fizzie> That's "5 rooms, kitchen, something, something (maybe office room?), craft room, probably-bathroom, toilet, sauna".
19:49:15 <boily> you can get your own private sauna in your own app.? wooooah...
19:49:30 <shachaf> fizzie: how much for a lake
19:49:35 <fizzie> boily: There are private saunas in really tiny apartments here.
19:50:16 <kmc> i guess it should not be the least bit surprising that the Finnish word for "sauna" is "sauna"
19:50:18 <fizzie> boily: Like, many of your 3½'s have this tiny can-fit-maybe-three-people-if-they-don't-mind-sitting-on-someone's-lap closet-saunas, for example.
19:50:54 <fizzie> boily: I can't quite give a percentage, but at least for new apartments, it certainly seems like the majority of them have saunas.
19:51:24 * boily 's eyes shine like an infatuated anime character in front of the most beautiful thing in the world.
19:54:06 <fizzie> None of the places I've lived in -- discounting back when I lived with my parents -- have had a per-apartment sauna, but that's just me.
19:55:05 <fizzie> In apartment buildings that don't have per-apartment saunas, I'd guesstimate at least 90% of them have a shared sauna for which you can reserve a one-hour slot per week.
19:57:03 <fizzie> Admittedly one hour is sort of not long enough to even get started, for a serious sauna-goer.
19:57:08 <fizzie> (Practical tip: the last slot of the day is nice, because then you don't have to hurry out in case someone's coming.)
19:57:52 <boily> our saunas have a warning that you should just spend 5 mins in them, up to probably 15 mins if you're an expert.
19:58:04 <boily> I think our sauna culture *may* be a tad different...
19:58:24 <ais523> they may be hotter than the finnish ones
19:58:55 <boily> that sounds really implausible.
19:58:59 <fizzie> ais523: I think a reasonable sauna temperature here is around 80°C.
19:59:42 <shachaf> I hear boily likes it at 100°.
19:59:43 <fizzie> But of course you go out (trad. to have a cold beer from the lake, and also to offer the mosquitoes a snack) quite often; then you repeat.
19:59:49 <ais523> I thought sauners were well above 100
20:00:05 <ais523> I'm more likely to type phonetically when tired
20:00:21 <Bike> that's p. rhotic
20:01:00 <fizzie> ais523: Well, 80-100°C, maybe; e.g. the competition things go higher than that, but that's not really for relaxing.
20:01:12 <ais523> there are sauna competitions?
20:01:14 <fizzie> It's somewhat a matter of taste.
20:01:28 <fizzie> ais523: I think they stopped after some people died, actually.
20:01:33 <fizzie> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Sauna_Championships
20:01:39 <shachaf> I think they don't really do them officially anymore.
20:01:46 <ais523> can I addquote that? I want to
20:01:53 <ais523> just because it blows my mind
20:01:56 <fizzie> "The Championships were first held in 1999 and grew to feature contestants from over 20 countries. Sauna bathing at extreme conditions is a severe health risk: all competitors competed at their own risk, and had to sign a form agreeing not to take legal action against the organizers. Notably, the Finnish Sauna Society strongly opposed the event. After the death of one finalist and near-death ...
20:02:02 <fizzie> ... of another during the 2010 championship, the organizers announced that they would not hold another."
20:02:38 <ais523> I like Wikipedia's style of presenting facts next to each other and not drawing the obvious conclusion
20:02:56 <fizzie> They start at 110°C (which I'd consider "pretty hot" for a sauna), and pour half a liter of water on the stove every 30 seconds, and the last person to walk out without outside help is the winner.
20:03:04 <fizzie> (If they carry your body out, it doesn't count.)
20:03:29 <ais523> so why do people compete in this?
20:03:39 <ais523> is it purely drawn from the pool of people who will do absolutely anything?
20:03:57 <ais523> (the pool has a tendency to shrink as they accidentally kill themselves in bizarre ways)
20:04:10 <fizzie> It's a very common to do the same thing, except less formally, to prove your toughness.
20:04:23 <boily> ais523: the pool, it is very large.
20:04:26 <ais523> huh, this is actually an argument in favour of reality TV shows
20:04:32 <fizzie> It's kind of shameful to be the first one out of a sauna, for example.
20:04:44 <fizzie> Depending on the sort of company you keep, of course.
20:04:51 <ais523> they draw such people away from things that will likely kill them, and into activities that will merely ruin their life
20:05:40 <fizzie> As I understand it, in some countries you're not allowed to pour water on the sauna stove.
20:05:48 <fizzie> Which is an integral part of the thing in Finland.
20:06:16 <elliott> do you actually do the jumping into ice cold water afterwarsdsthing
20:06:31 <fizzie> elliott: I don't, personally, but many people do.
20:07:05 <fizzie> The closest body of water from here is a bit far, anyway.
20:07:24 <ais523> fizzie: what do you mean by "body of water"?
20:07:35 <ais523> like, there are several pretty near reservoirs
20:07:36 <fizzie> ais523: Lake, sea, that kind of thing.
20:07:41 <ais523> even though I live nowhere near the coast
20:07:49 -!- nooodl has joined.
20:07:55 <ais523> although jumping into a reservoir would get you into trouble in the UK
20:08:13 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, well, if it's not right next to the sauna, it's possibly kind of awkward to run naked through e.g. a city.
20:09:49 <fizzie> In Otaniemi (the university campus) it'd possibly be okay. I've seen a few naked people around there.
20:10:14 <fizzie> Though normally you'd just go to a sauna built next to water.
20:10:32 <ais523> is it possible to build a sauna underwater?
20:10:36 <ais523> so you'd cool off as you swam out?
20:10:37 <fizzie> The idea (AIUI) is to get a high temperature gradient, after all, so you need to minimize the sauna-to-water time.
20:10:52 <fizzie> It doesn't sound physically impossible, but I've never heard of one.
20:11:04 <oerjan> <ais523> huh, this is actually an argument in favour of reality TV shows <-- don't you mean an argument _against_? we're preventing cleaning of the gene pool here!
20:11:04 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:11:31 <fizzie> There are a couple of saunas on wheels that you could drive to any shore you like.
20:12:06 <fizzie> See e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=sauna+auto&safe=off&tbm=isch
20:12:58 <fizzie> There was a very professional-looking (re build quality, finish, and so on) one around Otaniemi last summer.
20:13:27 <ais523> now I'm imagining a sauna airship
20:13:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit).
20:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> there is presently one on channel 4 called bedtime: live
20:13:48 <fizzie> There are saunas on boats, I think. That gets quite close to water.
20:14:12 <Taneb> ais523, on the subject of jumping into reservoirs, you could probably get away with jumping into Kielder
20:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> p. sure someone wrote a short story in the 80s about this kind of thing
20:14:16 <fizzie> There are certainly sauns on the 12-deck Helsinki/Stockholm cruise ships, but that probably doesn't quite count.
20:14:42 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that doesn't sound like a very interesting reality tv show
20:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> it's live coverage of parents trying to get their children to sleep
20:16:18 <ais523> I think I feel sorry for their children
20:16:45 <ais523> informed consent seems necessary for this sort of thing
20:16:59 <ais523> and if someone is hard to persuade to go to sleep, they possibly aren't capable of giving informed consent
20:17:16 <elliott> does that mean I'm incapable of giving informed consent?
20:17:21 <elliott> it's pretty difficult to persuade me to go to sleep
20:17:30 <Taneb> elliott, go to sleep.
20:17:52 <Taneb> Please go to sleep, elliott.
20:18:11 <shachaf> elliott: stay awake forever
20:18:21 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:18:24 <Taneb> Based on personal experience, people are more likely to say "fuck you" to me while asleep
20:18:54 <ais523> while you're asleep, or while they're asleep?
20:19:06 <Taneb> While they're asleep
20:19:31 <ais523> I guess the main conclusion that can be drawn from this is that you're not generally disliked /and/ people have tendencies to have erotic fantasies about you
20:19:47 <Taneb> (I know someone who suffered from a head injury and so fell asleep really easily, while remaining pretty lucid, and she subconsciously hated me)
20:19:53 <fizzie> Also I understand many non-Finnish sauna cultures lack the part where you whip people?
20:21:07 <boily> never got whipped in a sauna, at least not consciously.
20:21:30 <ais523> I've never been in a sauna
20:21:37 <lmt> the russian culture certainly doesn't
20:21:56 <Sgeo> Saunas are those places where people cook themselves to death, right?
20:22:24 <oerjan> how the heck did you talk this much in just six hours.
20:22:53 <Taneb> oerjan, funnily enough, you have very little evidence any of us actually talked
20:23:04 <fizzie> I think Vorpal implied once that the whipping part was at least not ubiquitous in Sweden.
20:23:10 <Taneb> Wow, imagine if this was exclusively voice-chat
20:23:14 <ais523> Taneb: yeah but convincingly faking the HackEgo logs would take just as much effort as actual talk
20:23:38 <Taneb> ais523, I'm referring to "flapping one's mouth open and closed" style talking
20:23:46 <Bike> it's the kind of pointless effort this channel would go to, though!
20:23:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would even say it isn't common here
20:23:58 <Vorpal> even go as far as calling it rare
20:24:09 <Taneb> The place where I buy ice creams is closing :(
20:24:28 <ais523> elliott: do you know a closing ice cream shop nearby?
20:24:29 <Taneb> It was on the front page of the Hexham Courant
20:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> <Taneb> Based on personal experience, people are more likely to say "fuck you" to me while asleep
20:24:33 <lmt> aniica vata sankhara
20:24:45 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:25:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i choose to this to interpret this as Taneb sneaking into friends' rooms and listening to them sleep-talking about him
20:25:26 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, nah, I'm just a dick to narcoleptics
20:25:37 <ais523> elliott: enough similar news events
20:25:44 <ais523> and you can determine how far from Taneb you live via binary search
20:25:46 <fizzie> Taneb: Is Hexham Currant a type of a berry?
20:26:05 <Taneb> ais523, we live within 3 miles of eachother
20:26:12 <Taneb> There's not going to be that much difference
20:26:16 <ais523> Taneb: is that the diameter of Hexham?
20:26:28 <fizzie> Hexham Currant Jam (occasionally called "Hexjam"), the breakfast toast complement of the discerning customer.
20:26:29 <elliott> ais523: Hexham is kind of tiny
20:26:31 <Taneb> It's about twice the diameter of Hexham
20:26:32 <elliott> there's not much we could deduce
20:26:57 <ais523> elliott: well presumably either there's an ice-cream shop nearer to you than the one near Taneb, or you never buy ice-cream
20:27:00 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
20:27:13 <elliott> you seem to be assuming there are more ice cream shops in hexham than there likely are
20:27:14 <Taneb> ais523, the one near me is pretty much in the middle of Hexham
20:27:18 <Taneb> And is a chocolate shop
20:27:31 <elliott> like there is no ice cream shop in hexham that could be so far away that it would not be close enough for a hexhamite to buy ice cream from it
20:27:49 <Taneb> elliott, there's Wheelbirk's, but that's not in Hexham
20:28:05 <elliott> i have in fact not heard of that
20:28:21 <Taneb> It's near Ebchester I think
20:28:25 <Taneb> So way to the south
20:28:44 <Taneb> (by "way to the south", I mean about maybe 10 miles south max)
20:29:43 <Taneb> nooodl_, it's not that great
20:29:49 <Taneb> We've got an old church
20:30:03 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
20:30:07 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
20:30:07 <Taneb> Imaginatively named "The Old Gaol"
20:30:14 <Taneb> And a swimming pool
20:30:20 <Taneb> And at least two esolangers
20:30:31 <fizzie> The church -- if it's the one in the Wikipedia article main image -- looks rather impressive.
20:30:38 <elliott> yes we don't have two churches
20:30:58 <elliott> i hear the abbey is haunted(?)
20:30:58 <Bike> wow it was burned in 875
20:30:59 <Vorpal> elliott, how many live in Hexham?
20:31:02 <elliott> well i hear like evreywhere is haunted
20:31:05 <elliott> Vorpal: like 10k-20k or something
20:31:06 <Bike> sometimes i forget how fucking old everything in england is
20:31:18 <Vorpal> elliott, so slightly less than the town I live in
20:31:25 <Vorpal> just over 20k in the town I live in
20:31:32 <Taneb> Vorpal, that's huuge
20:31:43 <nooodl> i'm in a... whoa. 21k person municipality
20:31:45 <elliott> nooodl: that's from like 2001 or something
20:31:49 <nooodl> i thought it was a lot less
20:31:49 <Bike> my shitty town has about 17k
20:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> the awful place i have to go to in ireland sometimes has a population of 1444
20:31:51 <elliott> so i imagine it's a bit more than 11k now
20:31:56 <Bike> i guess this means that statistically there are like
20:31:57 <elliott> but yeah it's probably not 20k
20:31:58 <Vorpal> Taneb, it is small for being a city, but it is officially a city
20:32:03 <Bike> three or four esolang people here probably??
20:32:03 <fizzie> Hexham is (IIRC) population-wise about the same size as the place where both of my parents are from, and where I used to visit every summer.
20:32:07 <shachaf> Bike: my town is smaller than your town
20:32:08 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well i used to live in a village with population like 100
20:32:12 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
20:32:13 <fizzie> Coincidentally, they too have a church: http://www.lieksanseurakunta.fi/kuvat/lieksa-1017-081c6b24b013a27e13bc97b8995688aa.jpg?v=1360672830
20:32:14 <Taneb> Vorpal, I raise you St David's, Wales
20:32:29 <Bike> elliott: so it'd have like a one hundredth of an esolanger? that sounds gruesome...
20:32:42 <Vorpal> Taneb, it was one of the last towns in Sweden to become a city before the concept of city rights was abolished (iirc that was related to guilds and taxes?)
20:32:43 <elliott> have i mentioned i was technically born in the south
20:32:48 <nooodl> ok it's church wars now
20:32:48 <nooodl> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Edegem_Basiliek1.JPG
20:33:14 <elliott> ours is better than both of those
20:33:17 <Bike> i think the nearest remotely notable church is like, mormon
20:33:21 <elliott> well actually fizzie's looks cool
20:33:38 <elliott> http://www.katemb.com/wp-content/uploads/Inside_Hexham_Abbey_Hexham_United_Kingdom.jpg
20:33:39 <fizzie> CHURCH WARS http://www.rky.fi/read/asp/hae_kuva.aspx?id=104147&ttyyppi=jpg&kunta_id=49 SO MUCH CONCRETE. (This one is in Espoo.)
20:34:00 <elliott> it's literally older than people and food
20:34:01 <nooodl> im going to become a christian
20:34:14 <Taneb> Please don't move to Hexham just to become a Christian
20:34:26 <nooodl> but this church, Taneb
20:34:42 <nooodl> what if i buy this church and move into it
20:34:49 <elliott> who is it that's buried in there or something
20:34:52 <Bike> hey do we have any spaniards
20:34:55 <fizzie> I think we had the discussion about Finland's most popular tourist attraction church on-channel already, but it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temppeliaukio_Church -- just look at the inside pictures of it. (Because the outside doesn't look like anything.)
20:35:05 <Taneb> elliott, old king of Northumbria
20:35:05 <Bike> because 60 Minutes did a areport on that one basilica and it looked damn pretty
20:35:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, calling 20k huge: I work in a city closer to 200k. 20 km from here
20:35:09 <elliott> http://www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/Northumberland/Hexham_Abbey/Hexham_2-w750.jpg 3 churches 4 the price of 1
20:35:12 <shachaf> fizzie: plz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temppeliaukio_Church
20:35:20 <oerjan> `run echo test | colorize
20:35:22 <HackEgo> bash: colorize: command not found
20:35:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, the church in that city: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%96rebro_Sankt_Nikolai_kyrka.JPG
20:35:29 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
20:35:31 <Vorpal> elliott, how about that one ^
20:35:44 <elliott> http://www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/Northumberland/Hexham_Abbey/North_Window-2_3713-w768.jpg fuckin stained glass, man
20:35:45 <oerjan> elliott: you realize there are other commands that _use_ that one?
20:35:56 <Vorpal> traditional, and not crazy like the ones in Finland, true
20:36:03 <nooodl> i used to live near literally the most boring church
20:36:05 <nooodl> http://www.kerkeninvlaanderen.be/i/13/01347_2547_lint_olvr_geboorte_01.jpg
20:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Margaret's_Chapel,_Edinburgh
20:36:20 <Sgeo> According to some msg I got
20:36:27 <nooodl> Phantom_Hoover: hahaha
20:36:31 <fizzie> World's largest wooden church is in Finland, if you believe these folks. (I'm not entirely certain.)
20:36:37 <elliott> fizzie: have i mentioned that church thing is colourful
20:36:40 <Sgeo> Also, grah, those sorts of messages annoy me. They always end up in some random channel in this client
20:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Giles%27_Cathedral but who cares
20:37:03 <fizzie> elliott: Maybe they've just turned up the colour saturation slider.
20:37:28 <nooodl> hmm... this is the nicest church i've entered http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Lille_eglise_Saint_Maurice_arriere.jpg
20:37:39 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Church_of_Kerimaki.jpg MOAR CHURCH (that's the woody one)
20:37:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: wow what a shitty church
20:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary%27s_Cathedral,_Edinburgh_(Roman_Catholic) is quite nice inside
20:37:50 <boily> what appears to be my current parish's church: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Jean-Berchmans_Church
20:37:58 <nooodl> fizzie: that looks kinda ridiculous
20:38:13 <Bike> what the hell is PDPC anyway
20:38:19 <elliott> i like how the static version of the blog post is also down
20:38:54 <Bike> is freenode down? am I here? are you here? who are you
20:39:09 <fizzie> nooodl: There's a persistent (though untrue) legend that the biggest wooden church was built so big due to unit confusion when reading the plans.
20:39:44 <nooodl> http://v2.nonxt1.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/172281.jpg wins the church wars btw
20:39:53 <fizzie> Apparently the actual reason is that the vicar at the time just wanted a church that's big enough to hold half of the people of the town (at the time, 12000 people).
20:40:07 <nooodl> fizzie: that's a cute legend
20:40:39 <ais523> Bike: PDPC own Frenode
20:40:48 <Sgeo> "to further reduce costs we have also discontinued the majority of infrastructure services for which the organisation paid, together with the reduced administration and organisational fees this means that we are now in a position where our outgoings are restricted to domain renewals! "
20:40:57 <elliott> http://planet.freenode.net.nyud.net has a working copy of the boring message.
20:40:57 <Sgeo> Who's paying for the servers?
20:41:02 <Sgeo> And bandwidth?
20:41:11 <ais523> [Notice] -mrmist- [Global Notice] As a P.S. to the last global, no, we're not dying or going away.
20:41:26 <elliott> there are freenode servers all over the globe
20:41:30 <elliott> seriously though guys http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Temppeliaukio_Church.jpg you have to hand it to the finnish
20:41:46 <Bike> "In practise it means very little" k
20:41:59 <Sgeo> The same was said about Cybertown after Blaxxun went bankrupt
20:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> that kind of reminds me of the church in nowhere, ireland
20:42:13 <shachaf> now #haskell-in-depth is talking about haskell vs. python
20:42:33 <Bike> Sgeo: did you actually construct that sentence
20:42:39 <ais523> elliott: ooh, it's further evidence for an observation I made recently
20:43:04 <ais523> which is that server space is now cheap enough, in most cases, that it no longer makes sense to fund it via any means but simply paying for it yourself
20:43:07 <fizzie> We don't have any of those impressive cathedral-style churches, though, I don't think.
20:43:08 <Bike> also i can't say i like that temppeliaukio thing but that's because i hate modern church architecture kind of irrationally
20:43:09 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:43:15 <ais523> even asking for donations is too much effort
20:43:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:43:50 <elliott> Bike: what gets me is that it looks like it belongs in, like
20:44:08 <oerjan> <Bike> elliott: so it'd have like a one hundredth of an esolanger? that sounds gruesome... <-- it's ok there's just this crazy guy that gets possessed by an esolang spirit every friday the 13th
20:45:23 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
20:46:41 <fizzie> We've got these kind of things http://bonovox.squarespace.com/storage/uspenski-orthodox-cathedral-cc-ja-macd.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2566/3725590329_b0dc9f846d.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Johanneksen_kirkko_Johannes_church_crop.jpg in Helsinki that sort of try to look generically impressive, but don't really manage so much.
20:47:53 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:48:25 <fizzie> People climb to the roof between the twin towers of the last one every now and then.
20:48:37 <fizzie> Not for any particular reason, just because.
20:48:40 <fizzie> It's discouraged, of course.
20:48:44 <elliott> first one looks like maybe a government building
20:48:56 <elliott> second one looks like another governemnt building
20:49:11 <elliott> third one looks like a kind of hal-hearted church
20:49:43 <fizzie> First one is the main place of the orthodox church of Finland, or whatever their official name is.
20:50:33 <fizzie> And I guess the second one is the same for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland.
20:50:44 -!- Bike_ has joined.
20:51:52 <Bike_> elliott: yeah that too
20:57:43 <impomatic2> Argh! Amazon quadrupled the price between adding to the basket and checking out. :-(
20:58:58 <Taneb> Well, this will certainly be the most... coastal anime con I've attended
20:59:02 <Taneb> Out of 2, to be fair
20:59:13 <lmt> i read that as amazon quadruped
20:59:25 <lmt> which is probably some kind of capybara
20:59:46 <Taneb> It's practically on the beach
21:01:15 <ais523> impomatic2: do you consider that to be an attempt to get you to buy it at four times the price?
21:01:35 <Sgeo> I seem to have accidentally created an Orkut account
21:01:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:01:46 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:03:49 <impomatic2> ais523: I think the amazon sellers run software to continually adjust their prices. E.g. 0.01 below the lowest price. Or the lowest price +10%, or whatever.
21:04:25 <ais523> if that's anything like the typical MMO economy, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, if something's in short supply then the higher-priced sellers will buy it from the lower-priced sellers
21:04:33 <impomatic2> It's amusing when to price bots get together, especially if they're working on +10% or something. Books can be priced in the millons
21:05:11 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:05:15 <Sgeo> I visited the Orkut home page and since I was logged into some google service (looked like it was using YouTube's information), it made an Orkut account for me.
21:05:25 -!- carado has joined.
21:06:26 <impomatic2> There's even books listed 2nd hand which haven't been published yet.
21:06:41 <fizzie> ais523: There have been a couple of articles about algorithmic Amazon pricing; one of them involved sellers that put up things for sale that they don't actually have in stock, with a high price.
21:07:13 <ais523> Sgeo: I still don't regret deleting all my Google accounts
21:07:30 <fizzie> http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 "Amazon’s $23,698,655.93 book about flies" is at least one I've read.
21:07:36 <ais523> although I'm not sure I'd recommend it to other people
21:08:28 <impomatic2> I bet someone's laundering money through Amazon by listing books which don't exist.
21:08:48 <fizzie> It's a feedback loop of two companies, one setting price to 0.9983 of the other, while the other setting it to 1.270589 of the first one.
21:09:15 <fizzie> Since 0.9983*1.270589 > 1...
21:09:41 <impomatic2> I was wondering if I can list a book at 0.50 or something so the algorithmic pricers change to 0.49 or something.
21:09:57 <impomatic2> Then buy the book I want and delete my listing... Might save me a few :-)
21:10:06 <Taneb> If you have a few copies of the book just in case
21:11:02 <ais523> impomatic2: the algorithmic pricers might immediately attempt to buy it, instead
21:12:49 <impomatic2> I'd like a copy of "Lisp in Small Pieces" but 46 is too high...
21:12:54 <Taneb> It may be ever so slightly illegal
21:13:15 <impomatic2> Not illegal, though I'm sure it's against Amazon's T&C
21:13:29 <kmc> Sgeo: are you brazilian now
21:13:37 <oerjan> <shachaf> elliott: Your irssi window doesn't have to close when you leave a channel. <-- for quite a while i had this empty no. 2 or was it 3 window that i didn't know how to get rid of.
21:13:44 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
21:14:57 <fizzie> kmc: Isn't that £$₫ or something.
21:15:06 <kmc> pounds, dollars, and dongs?
21:15:26 <Taneb> librae, sesteces, and denarii
21:15:26 <kmc> Pounds, Dollars, and Dongs: The KMC Story
21:15:32 <Bike> just pirate books like a normal person
21:15:36 <impomatic2> sd = pounds, shillings and pence (if you're old enough to remember)
21:15:44 <Taneb> You can /pirate/ books!?
21:15:45 <kmc> đồngs i guess
21:15:47 <impomatic2> Don't ask why d = pence, because I don't know
21:15:56 <kmc> impomatic2: latin, Taneb had it already
21:16:20 <kmc> also why L = pounds
21:16:25 <Bike> Taneb: how have you survived up to now
21:16:33 <fizzie> GitS:SAC had yen-euro-dollars, IIRC; in an episode called ¥€$.
21:16:41 <Taneb> Bike, by never reading ever
21:16:55 <Bike> i don't think that was one currency, just a bunch of stuff the assassin shoved into her arm
21:17:00 <Bike> Taneb: so the answer is "I haven't"
21:17:13 <Bike> anyway i mention this because i have a pirated copy of lisp in small pieces, specifically.
21:17:21 <Taneb> I generally get physical books from a local bookshop
21:17:29 <Fiora> " Examples are 13-fold ionized iron (Fe13+), or Fe (XIII) in spectroscopic notation, found in the Sun's corona, or naked uranium (U92+), bare all bound electrons, which requires very high energy for its production." wow. wikipedia's writing
21:17:35 <Fiora> "naked uranium bares all bound electrons"
21:17:54 <Bike> i didn't know hexham had a bookshop
21:18:03 <elliott> we have a bookshop but not books
21:18:13 <kmc> a cheeseshop but no cheese
21:18:13 <Bike> right same here
21:18:14 <Taneb> Bike, it has 2 selling new books, and at least 2 second hand
21:18:39 <Bike> i mean you can't just go down to the local bookshop and buy Intelligence as Adaptive Behavior or whatever obscure nonfiction shit
21:18:48 <Bike> unless you live in portland maybe (assholes)
21:19:05 <kmc> i like the conspiracy theories about how NAFTA is trying to introduce a North American "Amero" currency
21:19:16 <kmc> cause I'm sure the US wants to be in a monetary union with Mexico
21:19:24 <shachaf> I want to go to Portland again so I can go to Powell's.
21:19:29 <Bike> i got three books on neurodynamics from powell's, all sold to them by the same guy
21:19:32 <Bike> pretty awesome
21:20:00 <Bike> Fiora: physicists need to get out more?
21:20:10 <Taneb> But yeah, if I ever want to learn to program on an Amiga, I know EXACTLY where to go to buy some books
21:21:12 <FreeFull> All the information you need is on the internet
21:21:13 <Bike> Taneb: http://globalnerdy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/forth_on_the_atari.jpg
21:21:24 <fizzie> If you want to learn to program a Z80, Zilog used to send you the book for free.
21:21:25 <elliott> i can't tell if you're making a sincere statement or not
21:21:35 <fizzie> Postage paid, and all.
21:21:41 <FreeFull> Bike: I think that image was edited to give the guy a boner
21:21:48 <kmc> shachaf: the dream of the 90's is alive in portland
21:21:57 <fizzie> (Nowadays they only give you the PDF for free.)
21:22:32 <kmc> FreeFull: just for accuracy
21:22:34 <kmc> to the subject
21:22:45 <Bike> http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/paper.html so um
21:22:52 <Bike> "We used these devices to build a distributed port scanner to scan all IPv4 addresses."
21:22:53 <lmt> i'm pretty sure that guy had a boner from the beginning
21:23:07 <kmc> oh they're standing on a keyboard
21:23:13 <FreeFull> Huh, it seems that is the original image
21:23:25 <lmt> it's a great image
21:23:30 <Taneb> Unfortunately, I'd first need one of those computery things
21:23:30 <kmc> http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1636/sicpcl6.jpg
21:23:39 <Taneb> And Bike that Forth book looks amazing
21:23:50 <Bike> it's pretty great at parties
21:23:52 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone else scanning the whole IPv4 address space too.
21:24:01 <ais523> Bike: what, even the multicast noes an the private use region?
21:24:04 <Bike> "After completing the scan of roughly one hundred thousand IP addresses, we realized the number of insecure devices must be at least one hundred thousand."
21:24:07 <kmc> more here http://www.globalnerdy.com/2007/09/14/reimagining-programming-book-covers/
21:24:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:24:30 <Bike> the forth one isn't an edit though, which is the good part. way better than some sketchy animal
21:24:31 <ais523> btw, CLC-INTERCAL has a really brilliant way of handling IPv6
21:24:39 <ais523> you look up an IPv6 address as if it were a domain name
21:24:42 <kmc> i,i Die Gnu Autotools
21:24:53 <ais523> and it gives you an IPv4 address (in the multicast region) that you can use as a substitute
21:24:58 <fizzie> SICP already has a pretty funky cover, though.
21:25:08 <Bike> kmc: this just reminds me how fucking terrible fantasy art is
21:25:09 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:25:13 <ais523> this is probably the most backwards-compatible method I've ever seen, I recommend adding it to glibc
21:25:43 <Taneb> ais523, I find that mildly amusing
21:25:43 <elliott> ais523: um what if you want to connect to 1000000005823489723894723894728934723894723894892342349823489234 ipv6s simultaneously
21:25:50 <Bike> okay the why's poignant guide one is awesome
21:26:04 <kmc> the woman on the FORTH book is wearing some kind of upside down bra
21:26:07 <ais523> elliott: well then it doesn't work but you'd run out of other resources first, like file handles
21:26:09 <kmc> is there even a name for such an item
21:26:30 <kmc> yes they both do appear to be dressed in bondage gear
21:26:41 <olsner> a push-down? maybe it's some sort of pun on stacks
21:26:56 <Bike> god that would be awful so it's probably true
21:27:20 <kmc> http://blog.signalnoise.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/i_atari2_2.jpg
21:27:21 <fizzie> ais523: There's a real compatibility thing that does vaguely something like that; though there you actually look up a real domain name; if it has an IPv4 record, it returns that; but if it only has an AAAA record, it makes up an IPv4 address that (for that program) works as a substitute.
21:27:51 <Bike> kmc: what is that, breakout?
21:27:59 <kmc> BUZZ ALDRIN SPACE RAINBOW TENNIS™
21:28:28 <kmc> package includes: Atari cartride, glass pipe, 20x Salvia divinorum extract
21:29:16 <Bike> i'm just trying to imagine the actual game, since i don't think psychedelic demos (psychedemia?) was really possible on an atari
21:29:24 <Bike> maybe in forth
21:30:06 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrhJ9wDNWm4
21:31:07 <lmt> salvia is awful
21:31:09 <Bike> i just made the classic blunder didn't I. assuming a demoscene hacker can't make a system shock remake out of a pile of twigs and copper
21:31:35 <fizzie> ais523: See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ngtrans-bia-03 for the details of it, if you like.
21:31:42 <lmt> this is salvia basically http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3628/hmmev.gif
21:31:57 <fizzie> "If only the AAAA record is available, it requests the address mapper to assign an IPv4 address corresponding to the IPv6 address, then creates the A record for the assigned IPv4 address, and returns the A record to the application."
21:32:07 <kmc> lmt: yeah seems about right
21:32:25 <kmc> lmt: we would have also accepted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX3iLfcMDCw
21:32:30 <shachaf> this is salvia basically http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2008/11/24/GL1B13_Country-Bread-and-Sage-Dressing_lg.jpg
21:32:31 <Bike> that looks like the opposite of awful. what am i missing
21:33:31 <lmt> two hands should be enough for anyone
21:34:23 <kmc> Bike: the realization that lurking just outside your Plato's Cave view on reality are entities you can never comprehend
21:34:35 <kmc> or perhaps the feeling that you didn't return to quite the right universe
21:34:40 <lmt> who don't like you very much
21:34:41 <kmc> which will haunt you forever
21:34:54 <kmc> however, yolo
21:35:01 <fizzie> Bike: If you want to verify that, just go to http://pouet.net/prodlist.php and multiselect all platforms that start with "Atari", then poke the submit button; then go through the entries one by one. (There are only 242 pages of 25 results each.)
21:35:03 <lmt> it's basically the scariest shit ever
21:36:10 <kmc> my friend took it and experienced several months of subjective time, during which he learned that he'd poisoned himself with the drug and was slowly dying while his family and friends came to the hospital to ask him why he had done this thing
21:36:22 <Bike> sounds way better than your average horror film
21:36:32 <lmt> if you want to be really scared, sure, try salvia
21:36:40 <kmc> and then after he died he came back to our reality about three minutes later
21:36:46 <Bike> you're mostly making me want to try it to see how it compares to my nightmares
21:36:48 <kmc> three minutes from whe he'd smoked it
21:37:29 <Bike> though clearly i should try something less strong first, like mama's classic style ditryptamines
21:37:40 <lmt> kmc: i've heard of people being trapped for thousands of years
21:37:44 <lmt> subjective time is a bitch
21:38:01 <elliott> good way to extend your lifespan
21:38:07 <fizzie> (The BIA draft also refers to a slightly related BIS approach of RFC2767.)
21:38:18 <olsner> is that really subjective time? or more like when dreaming and you "know" that it's suddenly a thousand years later?
21:38:40 <Bike> probably the latter insofar as you can define subjective time
21:38:45 <Bike> kmc: have you heard of junji ito?
21:38:54 <lmt> olsner: it is enough for it to be subjective knowledge that you're stuck there for thousands of years for each moment of the experience to be unbearably unpleasant
21:39:20 <fizzie> (There seems to be an absolutely amazing number of RFC documents on IPv6 transition methods of various levels of freakiness.)
21:39:21 <olsner> it seems a bit improbable to experience significantly more time than normal
21:39:22 <Bike> he wrote a comic called "Long Dream"
21:39:30 <kmc> Bike: i'm happy to provide drug recommendations
21:39:32 <Bike> about a guy who kept having longer and longer subjective dreams every night
21:39:48 <lmt> drug recommendation #1: don't try salvia
21:39:50 <kmc> i don't mean to discourage people from trying salvia, if it really sounds like a good idea after all the above
21:40:07 <Bike> three nights in he wakes up talking about how he barely remembers the doctor, it was so long ago
21:40:10 <Bike> etc. good comic
21:40:11 <kmc> oh also another friend would take salvia and then just beg me to make sure he never took it again, without giving specifics
21:40:16 <lmt> i feel like the only use for it is to gauge your mental strength
21:40:22 <kmc> and then after he came down 3 min later, had no idea why and shrugged it off
21:40:30 <lmt> and your acceptance of death and stuff like that
21:40:32 <Bike> kmc: you're the one who linked that pikhal page, right? i already convinced a friend we should try it
21:40:32 <fizzie> Drug recommendation #0 [a meta-recommendation]: don't talk about drug recommendations on freenode channels, I'm pretty sure it's against the policies and/or guidelines.
21:40:40 <kmc> Bike: which page
21:40:46 <kmc> OH NO THE POLICIES
21:40:52 <kmc> Bike: that sounds like a good comic
21:40:56 <Bike> kmc: some drug that affected your perception of sound
21:41:04 <Bike> he's a musician, he thought it souned great
21:41:13 <kmc> it's a bit obscure but yeah you should try it, if you can get it from a safe and trusted source
21:41:41 <kmc> which is quite unlikely :/
21:41:52 <Bike> Obviously I should make it myself. Totally safe.
21:42:06 <kmc> yeah if you have a trustd friend with organic synthesis skills and access to a lab
21:42:09 <kmc> then do that
21:42:13 <Bike> http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/longdream.html I forgot, the other part of Long Dream is about this chick who's morbidly (ha! ha!) afraid of death
21:42:20 <shachaf> kmc: ooh give me a drugs recommendation
21:42:21 <elliott> is fizzie threatening to kick kmc
21:42:40 <fizzie> elliott: With my reputation? No, I'm just sort of hinting.
21:42:41 <olsner> elliott: that's not how I read it
21:43:00 <elliott> well this channel is also publicly-logged so i'm pretty sure the feds are at kmc's door as we speak
21:43:15 <Bike> we have to book you for possession of some creepy-ass shit
21:43:26 <kmc> i don't have any DiPT or any salvia
21:43:32 <kmc> these are tales of years ago
21:43:46 <fizzie> You could take it to the #esoteric-drugs subchannel, though; that's what usually gets done. (I'm sure everyone who'd join #esoteric-drugs would *certainly* assume the "esoteric" refers to esoteric programming languages.)
21:43:47 <lmt> salvia is legal in most places
21:44:02 <elliott> fizzie: has that literally ever happened before
21:44:11 <lmt> it's legal because nobody really wants to abuse it
21:44:13 <elliott> kmc: i am sure the statue of limitations has passed on literally everything you have ever done also right
21:44:21 <Bike> I actually live in a state with legal weed, and I'm pretty sure strong hallucinogens are basically the same as weed?
21:44:31 <kmc> anyway something like DiPT is too obscure to circulate in the usual drug black markets, except maybe sold as something else and that sucks bigtime
21:44:33 <fizzie> elliott: Quite a lot of minecraft talk did end up in #esoteric-minecraft back then.
21:44:46 <Bike> kmc: Isn't the point of pikhal and tikhal making it yourself?
21:44:46 <fizzie> "Countries where salvia is controlled in some manner include: Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Italy, Japan, the United States, Russia, Spain, and Sweden" yay, we've made the list.
21:44:48 <lmt> why shouldn't minecraft talk be here?
21:45:06 <kmc> 'research chemicals' that aren't illegal can be bought direct over the Internet from sketchy synthesis companies in China
21:45:12 <kmc> occasionally they mess up and send you poison
21:45:20 <kmc> and you need to know which ones are functioning and not a scam this week
21:45:22 <fizzie> lmt: Because it's off-topic and was crowding out on-topic stuff? (Hypothetically, anyway.)
21:45:29 <lmt> how is it off-topic :(
21:45:45 <lmt> possibly the most successful esoteric language ever
21:45:46 <kmc> presumably you could also buy it on Silk Road
21:45:56 <kmc> but how do you know what you're getting
21:46:05 <olsner> lmt: minecraft is boring
21:46:28 <lmt> brainfuck is boring but it is still on-topic
21:46:37 <kmc> salvia being legal is kind of a problem because irresponsible assholes sell it as 'legal weed' and idiots buy it and hurt themselves
21:46:43 <kmc> psychologically if not physically
21:46:57 <kmc> ofc. the solution is not to ban salvia but to legalize weed
21:47:17 <lmt> i doubt people get seriously hurt
21:47:24 <lmt> unless they were schizophrenic to begin with
21:47:24 <kmc> http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycons-response-to-inapropriate.html you can't smoke weed at PyCon
21:47:55 <elliott> well you can't do anything fun at pycon to start with
21:48:03 <lmt> are they saying guido wasn't high when he came up with significant indentation
21:48:11 <Bike> family friendly environment?
21:48:30 <elliott> indoctrinate your kids with python at an early age
21:48:33 <elliott> so they'll never become programmers
21:48:33 <kmc> lmt: imo indentation syntax is great, as long as it's just sugar for an explicit form
21:48:37 <kmc> that's where python goes wrong :(
21:48:44 <lmt> kmc: imo python is great
21:48:54 <kmc> python akbar
21:49:10 <lmt> and people who don't like significant whitespace are very stupid people
21:49:31 <lmt> the kind of people who would ban weed smokers from python conferences..
21:49:34 <kmc> people who don't like $my_favorite_thing aren't Real Hackers anyway
21:49:39 <Bike> Shit's getting meta.
21:49:42 <kmc> smoking inside is a dick move though
21:49:47 <kmc> whether it's weed or tobaccy
21:49:58 <fizzie> lmt: The parts that would arguably make it an esolang are reasonably minor, and weren't mostly involved in the discussion. Anyhow, you can go read the logs around the time when #esoteric-minecraft was established; IIRC there was mostly a consensus, of sorts.
21:50:03 <fizzie> (All this babbling should really be on #esoteric-en anyway, right?)
21:50:44 <lmt> i don't like fragmentation of a community of 10 people
21:51:04 <lmt> you're right. it's less
21:51:04 <elliott> #esoteric-minecraft is unused anyway
21:51:10 <elliott> except for actual server chat except that never happens
21:51:14 <ais523> it was used back when minecraft was popular
21:51:22 <lmt> is anyone playing on their server?
21:51:24 <Bike> anyone remember that part in unix-haters where they made fun of usenet (posts about how to organize usenet)
21:51:25 <ais523> but people mostly weren't playing it for redstone, and redstone isn't that interesting as an esolang
21:51:25 <Taneb> Yeah, two weeks ago
21:51:27 <Bike> best part, i think
21:51:47 <elliott> also it was the minecraft people who moved to -minecraft anyway
21:52:20 <nooodl> redstone is so annoying to make anything in
21:52:23 <ais523> so that we didn't spoil their minecraft discussion with esolangs?
21:52:39 <fizzie> Yes, and I don't think anyone even suggested that would be "fragmenting the community" somehow.
21:52:40 <Taneb> Sometimes -minecraft is used for Dwarf Fortress
21:52:43 <lmt> redstone is super annoying
21:52:45 <Taneb> elliott, Phantom_Hoover
21:52:49 <ais523> and people can be in multiple channels
21:52:54 <lmt> which is a hallmark of a good esolang
21:53:05 <ais523> elliottcraft would also be annoying to make things in
21:53:11 <ais523> I have most of a spec, but haven't gone close to attempting to implement it
21:53:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, convince elliott to start a fortress
21:53:16 <lmt> i wish dwarf fortress were less buggy :(
21:53:23 <elliott> hahahahahaha me start a fortress
21:53:27 <ais523> (btw: elliottcraft is my language, it's just named after someone else)
21:53:28 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress pestering, I'm afraid
21:53:36 <elliott> Taneb: call the fortres something stupid please
21:53:55 <lmt> i've been playing dwarf fortress a lot recently
21:54:00 <Taneb> elliott, my laptop is playing up and I never resolved the chinese graphics card fiasco so I can't use my computer
21:54:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if you can still use the UNCOUTH names for your fortress
21:54:08 <Taneb> lmt, want to start a succession fortress?
21:54:32 <Taneb> Head of the military is named after Gre_gor
21:54:44 <Taneb> Farmer is named after me
21:55:07 <Taneb> The dorf named after elliott gets a lavish room unless you don't want him to
21:55:46 <ais523> ooh, that bug in Konversation we found earlier today has been fixed already
21:55:49 <ais523> that was quite a turnaround
21:59:34 <Bike> http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/assets/comics/horror/longdream/07.jpg so this is salvia eh
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21:59:44 <Taneb> > (\x y -> y . x y) id (+1) 0
22:00:03 <lmt> that does not seem representative
22:00:38 <Taneb> > let p x y = y . x y in p (p id) (+ 1) 0
22:00:53 <Taneb> > let p x y = y . x y in p (p (join fmap)) (+ 1) 0
22:03:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:03:55 <lmt> should have told him to take it into #esoteric-haskell
22:05:17 <lmt> well it shouldn't be
22:05:44 <elliott> i thought you were just arguing against fragmentation
22:05:45 <lmt> since haskell is not an esoteric language..
22:05:51 <lmt> i changed my mind
22:06:05 <elliott> i think you need to be in #esoteric-fragmentation then
22:07:47 <lmt> fragmentation of consciousness
22:08:36 <Bike> http://www.justmegawatt.com/comics/assets/comics/horror/longdream/27.jpg how about this is this salvia
22:08:46 <Bike> it this esoteric
22:08:48 <Bike> is this haskell?
22:08:57 <lmt> it is haskell
22:09:13 <lmt> he's falling apart into monads...
22:10:12 <Bike> monad tutorials blow him away
22:10:50 <lmt> a tragic fate
22:15:17 <Bike> http://internetcensus2012.github.com/InternetCensus2012/images/clientmap_16to9_1600x900.jpg dang, they made a map of infectees.
22:23:33 <oerjan> Bike: i'm pretty sure your previous picture wasn't haskell. hth.
22:38:49 <lmt> Bike: here's salvia http://i.imgur.com/Z4d8scj.gif
22:43:08 <Bike> salvia has a good raytracer
22:47:48 <olsner> and animation and lzw compression and a 256-color palette
22:48:24 <Sgeo> This website put a 500GB HD as "destitute"
22:52:54 <impomatic2> Dwarf Fortress ought to be available for android :-(
22:53:23 -!- lmt has left.
22:56:13 <Sgeo> What would the UI be like o.O
22:56:28 <olsner> it would be dwarf fortressy
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23:12:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, all functions are mapped to some sort of gesture
23:13:46 <Phantom_Hoover> also: i like the glossy digestive biscuit in lament's salvia picture
23:14:03 <Sgeo> Ugh this tutorial wants me to install node.js
23:14:44 <Sgeo> no its not a node.js tutorial
23:16:59 <Sgeo> uh. It wants me to install node.js 0.8. This is 0.2.6
23:17:57 -!- monqy has joined.
23:25:40 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Quit: ragequit).
23:25:45 <Sgeo> Meh, if node.js doesn't work, I'll skip/read those parts of the tutorial
23:30:19 <Sgeo> Oh joy if I can't get node.js working I get to figure out how to run a web server
23:30:39 <Bike> if you just want it locally that's not exactly hard
23:31:19 <elliott> um Bike are you admitting to knowing things about node.js
23:31:45 <Sgeo> I don't want node.js I want to do an angular.js tutorial
23:31:51 <Bike> i meant, a web server
23:32:00 <Bike> but yes in my workplace I'm known as the NodeMaster.
23:32:09 <monqy> by "do" do you mean "create" or "follow" and why
23:32:28 <Bike> Superheroic JavaScript MVW Framework definitely sounds like something to learn
23:32:29 <Sgeo> Because my job will involve AngularJS
23:33:06 <monqy> i dont know anything about node.js except it's a server side javascript solution and something about CPS and some people like it and some people hate it yada yada it's probably awful
23:33:33 <kmc> you should read http://blog.nelhage.com/2012/03/why-node-js-is-cool/
23:33:35 <monqy> yessss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_server-side_JavaScript_solutions still exists
23:34:09 <kmc> tldr: it's cool because it designates a single way for network libraries to cooperate
23:34:25 <Bike> that's pretty cool
23:34:39 <kmc> people in the community argue that it's the only way this could be done and the only way to produce XXXTREME SPEEEED
23:34:44 <kmc> both of which are false
23:35:05 <kmc> GHC's IO manager is a totally different approach to solving the same problem
23:35:12 <kmc> but it is a really important problem and something most languages suck at
23:35:21 <kmc> speaking as someone who has repeatedly been bashing his head against this problem in Python
23:35:37 <elliott> well node.js wants people to program in continuation passing style and also the author is a moron
23:35:37 <kmc> (looks like Python 3 is also going to have a designated One True event loop library)
23:35:43 <elliott> which is imo enough for me to dismiss it as unfairly as i like
23:36:09 <Bike> liking things is so passé.
23:36:49 <Sgeo> " the risk of bringing the whole world to a halt with an accidental blocking call,"
23:36:57 <Sgeo> How could one accidentally do a blocking call?
23:37:04 <Sgeo> Why would there be blocking calls in the stdlib?
23:37:09 <Sgeo> Or maybe when calling foreign code?
23:37:34 <kmc> Sgeo: pure computation is one case
23:37:44 <Sgeo> Ah, good point
23:37:49 <kmc> and yeah, there are blocking calls in the stdlib for convenience when you don't need async
23:38:08 <kmc> the problem is that the async versions are materially less convenient
23:38:11 <kmc> because of callback hell
23:38:53 <elliott> i'm trying to find the reason i decided the nodejs guy was a moron but google isn't helping :(
23:38:56 <kmc> this is one reason to prefer lightweight threads + IO manager
23:39:21 <kmc> but 99.999% of the programming world has decided that threads are evil and stupid, because they are evil and stupid in python and ruby
23:39:52 <Sgeo> I don't get the IO manager thing
23:40:00 <kmc> what's that
23:40:16 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7ss6hi4O51qcc9h5o1_500.gif everything i know about node.js
23:40:26 <kmc> Bike: what
23:40:30 <Sgeo> Is it jsut the underlying implementation of IO so that it co-operates with lightweight threads?
23:40:32 <Sgeo> Or is there more to it?
23:40:39 <kmc> you're asking me what the GHC IO manager does?
23:40:53 <kmc> that's a big part of it yes
23:41:04 <elliott> Bike: i don't understand but i agree
23:41:38 <kmc> in order to make it cooperate with lightweight threads, you can't do blocking syscalls directly from your worker OS threads
23:41:49 <kmc> otherwise you block a whole OS thread for the sake of one lightweight thread
23:42:56 <kmc> so instead, a lightweight thread just registers in a central place the IO it wants done, and will be woken up when it's completed
23:43:07 <kmc> and that worker is free to run other lightweight threads in the meantime
23:43:43 <kmc> so now you just need an OS primitive for "wait for any of these IO operations to complete and lemme know about the first one that does"
23:43:53 <kmc> which is what select / poll / epoll / kqueue / etc. are for
23:44:25 <Sgeo> Is there a way, on Windows, to tell when a subprocess you created is requesting input?
23:44:51 <Sgeo> My conclusion back in 2007 or 2008 that the answer was "no" ended up changing the specs of PSOX
23:45:06 <kmc> anyway the idea of routing IO from thousands of concurrent requests through a single syscall is what makes node.js "webscale"
23:45:11 <kmc> but it's something GHC does for you as well
23:45:35 <kmc> also, as it happens, GHC /does/ have a way to make arbitrary blocking C calls from a lightweight thread
23:45:50 <kmc> but it's more heavyweight than you would want for your basic IO mechanism
23:46:09 <kmc> in the worst case it involves spinning up a new OS thread, if the call takes too long
23:47:57 <Sgeo> Hmm, wonder if node.js has things like IRC libraries and Reddit libraries
23:48:01 <Sgeo> That might make me want to try it
23:48:24 <kmc> hacker news library
23:48:39 <kmc> library for applying to Y combinator
23:49:11 <Bike> i thought node.js was a webserver why would it have irc why would it have reddit what would having reddit even mean
23:49:58 <monqy> request to reddit for the latest and greatest in cat macros and commit suicide
23:50:05 <kmc> it's a language implementation and a framework for writing network programs of all kinds
23:50:09 <kmc> often webservers, yes
23:50:20 <kmc> its role is comparable to CPython + Twisted, for example
23:50:28 <Bike> Does anyone use like, Javascript by itself, any more
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23:50:29 <kmc> or Ruby + EventMachine? don't actually know anything about EM
23:50:44 <kmc> Bike: what would that mean? JS by itself doesn't have much of a way to interact with the outside world
23:50:47 <elliott> well JS by itself can't really do anything
23:50:57 <Bike> well, JS plus DOM I guess?
23:51:06 <kmc> yes people do still write web applications using javascript
23:51:09 <monqy> js can do plenty of things like: be stupid, hecka stupid, oh god why would you ever use JS, i know i know
23:51:28 <Bike> i just remember moaning about having to learn jquery, and my much-better-at-webdev friend was like "uh you don't want to use js without it bro"
23:51:34 <kmc> jQuery is a library
23:51:35 <Sgeo> What's the equivalent of hashmaps in JS? Apparently using an object is a bad idea if keys are arbitrary
23:51:53 <kmc> Sgeo: the equivalent is to punch yourself in the crotch repeatedly
23:51:54 <Bike> it's a library but it does a lot of things.
23:52:14 <kmc> Bike: anyway yes, some people do write JS web client code without any libraries other than provided by browser
23:52:26 <kmc> typically generic things that are intended to work with jQuery or any of the many other similar libraries
23:52:29 <Sgeo> I sometimes write really simple things without libraries
23:52:30 <Bike> huh. i don't remember seeing any recently
23:52:33 <kmc> it's not /thatt/ bad
23:52:37 <kmc> if you can assume a recentish browser
23:52:40 <Bike> not that i usually look, i guess
23:52:45 <Sgeo> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16240872/addtwittertoreader.htm
23:52:59 <kmc> like, you wouldn't write a whole app without jQuery or whatever
23:53:07 <kmc> but you might write a small library intended to be used in lots of very different apps
23:53:31 <elliott> actually i wouldn't write js at all
23:53:44 <kmc> btw a lot of people are now using client side MVC frameworks
23:53:48 <kmc> which is a lot nicer
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23:53:57 <Sgeo> kmc, I guess that's what AngularJS is?
23:54:02 <kmc> with jQuery you do lots of imperative reaching into the DOM and changing this or that
23:54:14 <kmc> with an MVC framework you have dom elements tied to data structures and when the data changes, the DOM magically changes to match
23:54:20 <kmc> according to a declarative template kind of thingy
23:54:45 <kmc> Sgeo: http://www.devthought.com/2012/01/18/an-object-is-not-a-hash/ https://github.com/sid0/jsdict
23:54:57 <Sgeo> kmc, yeah, read that first thing a while ago
23:55:26 <Bike> now i'm wondering if objects are actually implemented with hashing. though i guess that might not make sense if there's lots of inheritance
23:56:19 <monqy> have you ever noticed nothing in javascript makes sense though
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