00:05:35 * Sgeo goes to read http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1ah6ie/algorithmic_trading_for_dummies/ 00:08:11 what we need is dummy training for algorithms 00:09:19 kmc: There's going to be a mosh gsoc? 00:09:26 we hope 00:11:28 * Sgeo is slightly sad that he never did gsoc 00:11:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:12:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 00:17:42 > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in (((i**i**i)**i**i)**i**i)**i 00:17:45 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 00:17:55 > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in ((i**i**i)**i**i)**i 00:17:59 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 00:18:08 > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in (i**i**i)**i 00:18:12 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 00:18:20 > let i = 0 :+ 1 :: Complex CReal in i**i 00:18:22 0.2078795763507619085469556198349787700339 :+ 0.0 00:18:39 (they're all real) 00:23:31 hm, that's a bit neat, it's exp(i log i) 00:24:14 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 00:24:45 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Changing host). 00:24:45 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 00:26:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:33:25 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:42:41 -!- monqy has joined. 00:43:13 monqy: ho'w s mac lane 00:44:24 hi 00:44:24 monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 00:45:11 it's alright? i read it while i'm waiting and i'm in the section about limits which is after the section about adjunctions and before the section about monads. that's where it is. 00:45:46 i sense a "monad tutorial in your future" 00:45:53 :-) 00:46:03 you should do exercise ddarius gave me about limits 00:48:00 sure but maybe i should wait until im less busy??. ive only been sort of glancing over the exercises and working them a bit in my head since i usually read it when i dont really have time to fully work through them....in this "first pass" im focusing more on getting an intuition over an ability to actually work through things 00:48:21 "al right" 01:05:12 elliott: SPIM 01:05:35 _someone_ seems idle. 01:11:31 -!- WeThePeople has joined. 01:14:03 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:14:11 -!- DH____ has joined. 01:16:47 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 01:18:42 -!- DH____ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:21:23 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:29:02 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: Arc_Koen). 01:48:03 Old School vs. Non-Coding Hackers 01:48:05 A hacker would not whine about missing code. Hackers see missing code as an opportunity to build. Hackers like to build. 01:48:24 stop or i'll link you haskell porn 01:48:28 better call our hacker classifier to classify this one 01:50:09 Maybe I should learn Frege 01:50:15 Could introduce it at work, maybe 01:50:33 they named a language after frege of all people? 01:51:28 'He is considered to be one of the founders of modern logic and made major contributions to the foundations of mathematics.' 01:51:30 What's so bad about that? 01:51:56 mostly he's just old 01:52:21 where's my schönfinkel, man 01:52:48 also he's kind of an anti-semite, though i guess that doesn't matter for much when you're a hundred years dead, eh 01:54:27 Ah 01:55:26 would be kinda neat if there was a language named after some nyaya guy 01:56:21 Frege oder nich Frege, das ist die Frage 01:56:53 *nicht 01:57:31 nyaya 01:57:41 ? 02:02:01 see wikipedia 02:06:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:07:51 Are there any good Linux distros for laptops from, say, the mid-to-late 90s? 02:08:13 It ran DOS 02:10:22 Here's a nickle, kid. Buy yourself a real computer. 02:12:28 Should I buy myself a better radio? 02:12:28 https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-F_thxN8B8q8/ThDsmMfdNrI/AAAAAAAAABs/oOMaW22O-CM/s537/11+-+1 02:13:20 https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AM3tMmG_l6M/ThDsmRcTTHI/AAAAAAAAABw/X9kvx5G_PqA/s537/11+-+2 02:16:08 -!- carado_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:16:59 http://www.fark.com/comments/7649896/Evil-defense-contractor-develops-graphene-membrane-that-makes-it-vastly-less-expensive-to-filter-water-for-drinking 02:17:02 :D 02:19:00 wow Sgeo 02:19:16 that radio is impressive in its ability to avoid any vestige of retro charm 02:19:42 You mean it's not the sort of radio you think of when you think of 'old radio'? 02:25:08 i have to ask why you'd ask for such a distro, sgeo 02:25:41 Sgeo: Your laptop there is undoubtedly worse than my last three cell phones. 02:26:41 my netbook is worse than my phone. it's a bit sad. 02:27:22 Bike, because it woild be fun to use old equipment like that? 02:28:34 Why is Linux so much heavier than DOS? 02:29:14 I dunno perhaps it's because Linux actually does something 02:29:15 Because DOS proper is basically a BIOS abstraction layer? 02:30:06 it's like, if you're going to retrocompute, at least do it with something old enough to be interesting 02:30:23 Or at least obscure enough. 02:30:31 At *least* do OS/2 on that sucker or something. 02:30:41 like that PARC laptop i forgot the name of 02:30:41 Windows 1.0 was supported until 2001 wtf 02:31:05 Running DOS on a mid-90s system is... basically boring. 02:31:06 I think the laptop has a busted battery anyway :( 02:32:47 Windows 1.0 used tiled windowing.... 02:34:42 Windows/386 is followed by Windows/286. Who was in charge of naming o.O 02:35:06 o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was 02:35:41 you should get that eye looked at sgeo 02:35:43 `addquote o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was 02:35:49 OS/2 didn't really become NT. 02:35:53 well, you could also say xenix became windows 02:36:00 985) o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was 02:36:00 you'd be mostly wrong but you still said it 02:36:07 OS/2 was supposed to be the successor to old Windows and DOS. 02:36:17 But NT replaced it instead. 02:36:18 http://www.computerhope.com/history/windows.htm 02:36:26 'Following its decision not to develop operating systems cooperatively with IBM, Microsoft changes the name of OS/2 to Windows NT.' 02:36:41 That's very damned false. 02:37:54 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:48:11 -!- monqy has joined. 02:57:35 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 02:59:39 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:00:17 I have read somewhere that the "par" operator in linear logic means that you have both, but you are not allowed to use them together. Is this correct? 03:01:06 http://www.oldsoftware.com/ 03:01:15 This site looks like it's as old as the stuff it's selling 03:06:34 i wonder if they still have some original stock 03:08:52 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 03:12:47 i like how the beth numbers and the gimel function are both things related to cardinality despite the fact that beth and gimel look the same 03:13:39 beth and gimel don't look the same 03:14:15 They don't look the same at all. 03:14:21 ב ג 03:14:21 Yeah, and 入 and 人 are utterly identical. 03:14:36 hmm 03:14:40 i was going off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimel_function 03:14:51 where it... looks a lot like beth 03:14:52 Hmm, I guess they could look similar in a fixed-with font, somewhat 03:15:01 Wow, that font is really awful. 03:15:06 Although I could still easily tell the difference 03:15:15 i think that's the standard latex one... 03:15:48 Does the standard latex font draw the dot in the beth? 03:16:26 no 03:17:02 That letter is messed up. 03:17:31 Now, complaining about bet and kaf would be more justified. 03:17:36 ב כ 03:18:05 How about yud and English apostrophes 03:18:28 Those are different. י and ' 03:18:41 You might also complain about ר ד 03:19:01 Or ס ם? 03:19:11 Would not complain about those 03:19:42 only occurs at the end of words, iircםAlso 03:19:47 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:19:57 Yes. 03:20:08 But ס can also occur at the end of words. 03:20:27 One's boxy, the other's curvy 03:20:29 nbd 03:20:45 I know. 03:20:48 Sgeo: Now try distinguishing ユ and コ. 03:20:52 In sloppy handwriting. 03:20:54 >:D 03:21:12 pikhq: Easy: The first one looks like a ב and the second one looks like a כ. 03:21:16 god why are foreign langauges all so messy *idly scribbles u's and v's all over the place* 03:21:26 shachaf: Smartass. 03:27:44 -!- WeThePeople has joined. 03:38:12 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:54:08 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:59:22 I made a programming language where the return values of subroutines can be a number, or they can be one of the three special values: open bus, CIRAM bank 0, CIRAM bank 1. 03:59:29 -!- monqy has joined. 04:01:24 In the use it is for, it can be used, so it is not for general purpose. 04:03:25 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 04:03:46 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:04:06 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:04:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 04:04:33 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:06:08 -!- aloril has joined. 04:06:21 Do you know of analog Verilog? 04:10:21 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:11:06 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 04:14:31 Can any C compilers make a optimization for inverted logic? 04:17:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:20:04 Is there a fast way to erase a DRAM from software? 04:23:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:23:47 -!- edwardk has joined. 04:32:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:14:23 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:15:40 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:39:00 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:39:34 -!- edwardk has joined. 06:17:29 Do you like this? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Metadata_INI 06:18:25 -!- kallisti has joined. 06:18:25 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 06:18:25 -!- kallisti has joined. 06:18:43 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 06:22:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:22:41 " Can any C compilers make a optimization for inverted logic?" what do you mean? 06:23:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:24:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 06:24:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:25:22 oklopol: In some cases the boolean logic will be inverted in some circumstances, and depending on the CPU architecture and other things, moving around the places where the logic is inverted might be more efficient. 06:25:50 ah yeah, i learned that inverting gates (nand/nor) are faster that non-inverting gates (and/or) 06:25:54 in CMOS 06:26:00 and that's probably a simplification 06:26:19 zzo38: if you want to bulk-erase memory, then maybe non-temporal store instructions are useful, but I don't know for sure 06:27:58 inverted = invertible? 06:28:05 oh 06:28:42 (i thought this had to do with zzo's earlier bijective haskell thing.) 06:29:57 kmc: Yes, that is one example of what I mean, but that specific example would probably be more useful for hardware programming languages such as Verilog. However, that is not the only example. Even in software, there may be cases based on how the boolean values are used in various numbers and bitwise operations and branch instructions and so on. 06:30:42 oklopol: I did write about the bijective Haskell stuff in ##logic channel, and they say yes it can work, to make the Curry-Howard of the logic with numbers. 06:31:00 cool 06:31:36 So, that is the Curry-Howard of the logic with numbers! Now you know. 06:32:08 how is ##logic? 06:32:41 I did nothing other than asking and discussing that question, and only one other person replied, but it helped. 06:33:57 A person who's in this channel, too! 06:34:14 Yes, in that case it is. 06:34:31 They didn't answer on this channel, though. 07:18:01 ^list 07:18:02 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 07:24:11 So a NAND/NOR is both more powerful and faster? 07:29:29 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: gotta go). 07:37:23 FreeFull may never know if a NAND/NOR is both more powerful and faster 07:50:39 fungot: Is NAND/NOR more powerful and faster? 07:50:39 fizzie: now, what if we entered it into sarahbot :) at least relative to his current level 07:51:05 ^style 07:51:05 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 07:58:03 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 07:59:43 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 08:36:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:41:27 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 08:43:12 I'm beginning to learn the hard way that just because someone sounds like they know what they're talking about, doesn't imply that they actually know what they're talking about 08:44:49 It can also be partially. 08:46:36 A knowledgeable-seeming person on Reddit seems to be convinced that UTM == classical computers 08:46:44 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 08:47:23 Someone made a user page in esolang wiki, which says "My web blog; visit the following website page" but actually it is linked to a Wikipedia article for an airline in Poland. The user page says they live in Austria, though. 08:47:28 #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird 08:47:33 I like being weird 08:55:06 "I may have been a bit lax with my terminology." 08:58:46 who is ThatOtherPerson 08:59:06 He's just that other person 08:59:11 `run slist | rot13 08:59:18 bash: slist: command not found 08:59:23 what!! 08:59:38 what happened 09:00:54 Someone baleeted it 09:02:26 `ls 09:02:28 accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.orig \ slist. 09:02:45 `ls slist 09:02:49 ​/bin/ls: cannot access slist: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access slist: No such file or directory 09:02:58 `ls slist* 09:03:01 ​/bin/ls: cannot access slist*: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access slist*: No such file or directory 09:05:28 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd). 09:06:01 `run ls slist* # may be more what you want 09:06:03 slist.orig \ slist.rej 09:06:16 Good old leftover revertation things. 09:10:11 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:10:25 -!- TodPunk has joined. 09:24:27 I have the book "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman" and I also have the entire text of the book in my computer. Therefore it is sometimes useful for searching text in it, even though I like to have the book, too. 09:26:34 -!- carado has joined. 09:26:52 A q-cumber is a quantum vegetable. 09:27:24 Other uses of such things is if one page got destroyed, to print out another copy. In this case it is difficult, but with the TeXbook, since the page correspond exactly, it can be done. 09:29:41 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 09:33:19 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:34:06 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 09:36:26 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:37:26 I was playing Franchise Basketball, and on the free agent menu, it lists 1 to 14 on each page, but I pushed view 15, and it says some unusual things; their name is "f", they are 2079 feet and 6 inches tall, played 105 games without ever scoring any points, 15 years old, etc. 09:38:33 When trying 16, I get "vin ringdale", age -60, weight -15351 pounds, and an error message about "GETCOACH 0003". 09:39:20 2079 feet 6 inches sounds quite high even for a basketballer. 09:39:37 fizzie: Yes, I think so too. 10:01:06 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Page closed). 10:06:47 I have managed to win over one hundred games in a row. 10:09:21 Maybe the computer opponent is no good. 10:11:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:20:44 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:21:13 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 10:21:13 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:36:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:37:23 -!- Jafet has joined. 11:00:50 I have read somewhere that the "par" operator in linear logic means that you have both, but you are not allowed to use them together. Is this correct? <-- that really sounds more like "with" to me 11:01:15 which is that you must use exactly one of them 11:04:33 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 11:30:32 -!- Lumpio- has joined. 11:31:09 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 11:31:47 -!- WeThePeople has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:33:00 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:36:39 -!- impomatic2 has joined. 11:36:53 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:43:31 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 12:09:50 -!- monqy has joined. 12:52:24 -!- jix has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:52:44 -!- jix has joined. 13:17:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:17:40 -!- boily has joined. 13:20:46 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined. 13:33:48 -!- impomatic2 has left. 13:35:29 -!- metasepia has joined. 13:53:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:54:37 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:55:35 ais523: SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM 13:56:03 lovely spam 13:56:16 wiki spam? 13:56:17 ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 13:56:22 @messages 13:56:23 elliott said 1d 13h 1m 26s ago: looks like we shouldn't link to sprunge from the wiki; your BF Joust interpreter has disappeared 13:56:30 yes 13:58:19 A Letter To Bunny Pattern is pretty awesome, incidentally, despite being spam 13:59:19 spam dealt with 14:08:19 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has joined. 14:09:19 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:09:56 ais523: when a spam page is deleted, is it deleted forever? I'm curous about this lagopedian pattern. 14:12:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:15:50 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson. 14:19:16 -!- ssue_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:20:27 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 14:23:37 -!- ssue_ has joined. 14:25:15 -!- impomatic2 has joined. 14:26:29 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 14:30:45 `run echo -e "#/bin/sh\necho \"Cool stuff\"" > coolstuff.sh 14:30:51 No output. 14:30:52 `ls 14:30:54 accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ coolstuff.sh \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slis 14:31:04 `run chmod +x coolstuff.sh 14:31:07 No output. 14:31:10 `ls 14:31:13 accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ coolstuff.sh \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ sgfoobar \ share \ slis 14:31:24 `run coolstuff.sh 14:31:34 bash: coolstuff.sh: command not found 14:31:53 `run rm coolstuff.sh 14:31:58 No output. 14:32:39 -!- yiyus has joined. 14:34:49 -!- edwardk has joined. 14:35:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:37:17 `ls karma 14:37:19 karma 14:38:04 boily: it's not actually deleted, just hidden 14:38:07 we can undo the deletion if necessary 14:38:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 14:43:38 -!- carado_ has joined. 14:44:17 -!- carado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:44:39 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:44:53 Fun fact, deleting a specific revision entails deleting the page and undeleting all but one of the revisions 14:45:26 Sgeo: not any more 14:45:37 we used to have to do that, but there's a better UI on it now 14:45:43 Ah, cool 14:45:50 and we can also keep the fact the revision existed public, but delete the contents 14:53:08 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:53:55 it also used to be that if anyone made edits to another section of the page after the one you wanted deleted, you had to remove those too 14:54:15 Phantom_Hoover: that's still the case, MediaWiki thinks in terms of revisions, not diffs 14:54:27 so if you're trying to hide text, you have to hide every revision that includes that text 14:56:49 oh good 15:00:53 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 15:36:33 -!- Arc_Koen has joined. 15:41:23 -!- Bike has joined. 15:42:26 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:56:45 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 15:59:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:04:25 We're the most welcoming channel on Freenode!? 16:04:54 `wehlcome Taneb 16:04:57 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wehlcome: not found 16:05:01 `wehlcohme Taneb 16:05:05 Tahnehb: Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.) 16:05:16 Oh yes 16:09:28 `quote 1000 16:09:31 No output. 16:09:33 `quote 990 16:09:36 No output. 16:09:37 Vorpal, I don't like Feedly 16:09:39 `quote 980 16:09:42 980) also did you learn Haskell yet i think i've got most of it now what are these "type" things 16:09:48 `quote 981 16:09:50 981) it's raining in newcastle, therefore the elliotts are distinct. boily's Newcastle Theorem. 16:09:53 `quote 982 16:09:56 982) there's more evidence that scammers exist, than that, say, the average Nigerian exists 16:09:59 `quote 983 16:10:02 983) is it March 3? on some dates, yes 16:10:05 `quote 984 16:10:10 984) Two eggs costs less than one egg, but if you buy two eggs, you must eat both. Does linear logic do this? 16:10:11 Taneb, okay, haven't had much time to use it. Just got home today. 16:10:15 Taneb, what is the issue with it? 16:10:26 I just find it awkward to use 16:10:44 I can say I don't like the android client, though it is usable, but the desktop interface (in chrome at least) seems okay 16:10:48 `quote 985 16:10:53 but yes, google reader is better 16:10:54 985) o.O OS/2 is what became NT? I didn't really know what OS/2 was 16:10:59 `quote 986 16:11:04 No output. 16:13:22 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:14:20 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:22:43 This is quite a welcoming channel, I was welcomed to it before I even joined 16:23:19 `welcome ThatOtherPerson 16:23:26 ThatOtherPerson: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:23:34 `names 16:23:41 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: names: not found 16:24:24 ^list 16:24:24 Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot 16:24:32 Liar 16:24:45 ^ and I was put in there after about half an hour :D 16:25:08 what is ^list a list of? 16:25:12 Taneb: who, me? or fungot 16:25:13 ThatOtherPerson: now i'll go make a feathejs.git it for 16:25:17 I have no idea 16:27:22 ais523: names listed by ^list 16:27:32 I think some of the lists exist purely to confuse people about what they're lists of 16:27:42 Jafet: I will laugh so much if that is the actual reason 16:28:04 ais523: if only it were so simple. . . 16:28:10 if memory serves, ^list is the homestuck list 16:28:13 ah right 16:28:26 there's ^olist for oots 16:28:28 not sure about the others 16:28:30 why is one in fungot and the rest in HackEgo anyway? 16:28:31 ais523: so is precise garbage collection means it knows exactly what you want to discuss that on ideologies, there are 16:28:37 excellent question 16:28:48 ais523: because there's only one "rest", presumably 16:28:51 which I think that fungot has answered admirably 16:28:52 hackego only has one list 16:28:52 coppro: how do you say that 5kz is not correct, but not copyright encumberance)) instead 16:28:54 `ls bin/*list 16:28:57 ​/bin/ls: cannot access bin/*list: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access bin/*list: No such file or directory 16:28:58 and Taneb is in ^list thrice 16:29:02 `ls bin/list 16:29:06 sneaky sneaky sneaky 16:29:07 bin/list 16:29:08 oh did someone delete `list sneakily? 16:29:08 `run echo bin/*list* 16:29:11 bin/list bin/listen bin/lists 16:29:11 hm how do globs work again 16:29:12 ah no 16:29:17 `cat bin/lists 16:29:18 tail -n +2 $0 | xargs echo; exit 0 \ list 16:29:24 elliott: they work fine but you forgot the `run 16:29:26 ais523, there was slist on HAckEgo which was the Homestuck list, but someone deleted it 16:29:27 `rm bin/lists 16:29:30 No output. 16:29:31 ais523: oh right 16:29:32 and ^list was a backup 16:29:43 also what does `lists do? 16:29:51 not exist 16:29:57 I'm trying to work it out 16:30:19 oh, I see, it's a really convluted way to write "echo list" 16:30:25 *convoluted 16:30:48 theorem: mathematicians need more pronounceable names 16:30:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:31:06 designed so you can easily append to it 16:31:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 16:31:25 coppro: ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 16:31:34 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:31:48 agreed 16:32:15 coppro: would it be OK to take one mathematician, and give him or her a lot of pronounceable names? 16:33:15 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:33:48 ais523: no 16:34:05 monqy: proof: paul erwhat? 16:35:02 bleh, now I've forgotten how to type a double acute 16:35:12 Erdős 16:35:13 there we go 16:35:21 it's perfectly pronounceable if you know how to pronounce Hungarian 16:35:30 which is a very orthogonal and phonetic language 16:35:34 -!- Taneb has joined. 16:35:49 yes, but I don't know how! 16:35:53 oh i thought coppro was saying there was someone named paul erwhat and i was trying to figure out how thats hard to pronounce 16:35:57 I'm a mathematician, not a linguist! 16:36:04 but then i got lost in how good of a name erwhat is 16:36:34 coppro: hungarian ő is basically like german ö but a bit longer 16:36:47 whereas hungarian ö is like german ö but a bit shorter 16:37:02 -!- nooodl has quit (Client Quit). 16:37:06 that would be helpful if I could pronounce german 16:37:54 the closest sound in English is probably "er" or "ouer", but it's not exactly the same 16:38:25 -!- nooodl has joined. 16:39:25 clearly the correct solution is to get on a first name basis 16:42:05 -!- lmt has joined. 16:42:16 uhaeheuhuhaheheuaha 16:42:31 -!- lmt has set topic: The most welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | uhueueheuehueahuahuehuaha. 16:42:34 hi lmt 16:42:37 huehuehuehuehueha 16:42:38 `welcome 16:42:41 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:43:01 `welcome huehahauheueha 16:43:05 huehahauheueha: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 16:43:12 hi lmt 16:43:12 whats up 16:43:20 r u having a nice day 16:43:22 elliott: hue hue hue hue 16:43:27 thats nice 16:43:40 always good to hear. 16:43:44 do you know words that have letters other than h, u, e or a in them 16:43:50 hu? 16:43:59 thats tragic 16:44:08 well he said "elliott". 16:44:12 im sorry for you lmt 16:44:15 and "`welcome" 16:44:17 and 16:44:20 um 16:44:23 " " 16:44:24 wait elliott isn't a "real word" is it 16:44:48 well they just copied those from other people 16:44:49 oh and "?" 16:44:50 Hello lmt. 16:44:55 `wehlcohme 16:44:56 ThatOtherPerson: ??? 16:44:57 Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/wihki/Maihn_Pahge. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.) 16:44:59 you're not allowed to say hello to people 16:45:02 we have scripts for that 16:45:13 `hello 16:45:13 `hello lmt 16:45:16 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello: cannot execute: Permission denied 16:45:17 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/hello: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/hello: cannot execute: Permission denied 16:45:21 :) 16:45:24 hue 16:45:26 huh 16:45:27 ☺ 16:45:29 i love you lmt 16:45:30 `cat bin/hello 16:45:35 echo Hello 16:45:40 elliott: I am a script. 16:45:40 deep 16:46:02 `chmod +x bin/hello 16:46:07 anyone here into minecraft? 16:46:11 chmod: missing operand after `+x bin/hello' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information. 16:46:18 lmt: that's not really what the channel's about 16:46:22 yes it is 16:46:23 although, hmm 16:46:24 lmt: Sgeo runs the minecraft joint around here 16:46:27 redstone probably counts as an esolang 16:46:32 `run chmod +x bin/hello 16:46:37 No output. 16:46:41 ais523: have you *seen* the piston turing machine, it is amazing 16:46:46 `hello 16:46:47 and there was the whole elliottcraft debacle 16:46:49 Hello 16:46:54 -!- ThatOtherPerson has set topic: The most welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 16:46:54 sweet 16:47:02 ais523: this turing machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X21HQphy6I 16:47:20 lmt: it's a youtube link and I don't follow those at work (nor the rest of the time, very often, either) 16:47:28 well it's a turing machine 16:47:30 with MOVABLE TAPE 16:47:40 effectively infinite, until it hits floating point issues? 16:47:42 actual tape that actually moves 16:47:55 no it's effectively finite because you need a piston once in a while to keep pushing it 16:47:55 if it's finite I'm not interested ;) 16:48:02 but still it MOVES 16:48:17 i don't think i've ever seen that before 16:48:21 a physically moving tape 16:48:52 i suppose you could make it infinite by generating your world with a script 16:48:54 lmt: perhaps you need to play more Rubicon :) 16:48:55 lmt: there was a physical TM that did that too 16:48:59 i have some tape over to my left but it's too sticky to move 16:49:02 elliott: legos? 16:49:07 lmt: http://aturingmachine.com/ 16:49:14 omg 16:49:19 although that was finite due to the finite playfield, I made one with a moving cyclic tag queue 16:49:21 that's awesome 16:50:19 actually if you're making turing machines in physics simulators, moving the tape tends to be the easiest way 16:50:39 yeah 16:50:41 as in minecraft 16:50:59 btw have we ever resolved that issue 16:51:18 of whether an infinite program that itself is generated by a finite algorithm qualifies for anything 16:51:36 i think if the program is repeating it's considered ok 16:51:44 since you have to do that for e.g. even game of life to qualify 16:51:50 as in an infinite minecraft world 16:51:54 with infinite tape in it 16:51:58 and pistons to push it 16:52:09 with minecraft the implementation has limitations that stop it being infinite, but I guess an "idealised Minecraft" with a predefined world algorithm is TC 16:52:13 lmt: that's the issue I'm arguing with the wolfram people over 16:52:16 also redstone doesn't work in unloaded chunks 16:52:24 elliott: yeah 16:52:27 so you have to specify that all chunks are simulated all of the time in idealised minecraft 16:52:28 ais523: man have they still not published your thing 16:52:39 ais523: they gave you the money right? 16:52:40 Conway's life works on a blank universe 16:52:41 Bike: it's not that, they've been asking me for a revised version for years 16:52:43 TC? 16:52:43 lmt: yes 16:52:54 It can (probably) make tape using a universal constructor 16:53:01 Bike: and I don't want to just make a few minor corrections to keep their reviewers happy without actually resolve the underlying issue 16:53:08 what's the underlying issue 16:53:10 redstone breaks in horrible ways in unloaded chunks :( 16:53:32 Bike: that I'm using an infinite nonrepeating initialization 16:53:39 which is not in general considered OK 16:53:45 so I need to explain why it's OK in this specific case 16:53:46 i made an awesome music machine but once you walk away from it and come back, it's probably so broken that even a reset button won't fix it 16:53:57 so you need to make sure you turn it off every time you walk away from it 16:54:03 stupid redstone 16:54:07 i thought your paper covered that already 16:54:24 you can generate the pattern subTCly or whatever 16:54:29 ais523: imo it should be okay if it's generated by a finite algorithm 16:54:30 ais523: it isn't actually OK, is it? 16:54:39 elliott: well I think it is or can be modified to be 16:54:43 but defining that is hard 16:54:45 oh and if it can be generated on demand 16:54:45 Bike: well you can have two non-conventionally-TC machines that you can hook up to make a TC system, I believe 16:54:53 instead of generating it all at once 16:54:55 Bike: yeah but that's a really really informal argument 16:55:07 I guess the really informal argument is "you can look at how the simulation works and it obviously isn't cheating" 16:55:12 but mathematicians don't like that one for some reason 16:55:20 wankers 16:55:26 as long as they give you money, who cares what they like 16:55:29 wow this http://aturingmachine.com/ thing is extremely cute 16:55:29 elliott: I'm not sure; cpressey tried to do that and failed 16:55:32 so what would a formal argument be because at some point it just seems like who cares 16:55:33 also, wolfram sucks 16:55:45 Bike: I'm not sure, why do you think I haven't submitted the revised paper? 16:55:51 heh 16:56:39 anyway wolfram pretty much discouraged me from working on it 16:56:42 drawing strict boundaries between this-is-the-TC-system and this-is-the-background seems i dunno unworkable 16:56:56 it's my understanding that wolfram is a megawanker 16:56:59 yes 16:57:00 when he asked me to go meet him in cambridge, and gave me a huge sheaf full of corrections they wanted, and he just basically assumed that there were no mathematical issues without reading it at all 16:57:08 also left to eat lunch without offering me any 16:57:12 luckily I'd thought to eat before the meeting 16:57:18 :( 16:57:35 at least you got to meet.. the great stephen wolfram 16:57:48 there's at least one fallacious proof in ANKOS because it makes a similar incorrect assumption (that the details don't matter) 16:57:50 but I managed to fix that one 16:58:29 his holiness stephen wolfram" 16:58:35 stephen wolfram for pope 16:58:48 a new kind of idk something 16:58:52 pope for stephen wolfram (you guys know stephen wolfram is a position not a person right) 16:58:52 religion 16:58:55 papacy 16:58:59 monqy: a new kind of theology?? 16:59:18 oh right didn't we decide on a whatever-you-call-that-thing-you-do-with-Muhammad-peace-be-upon-him foir wolfram 16:59:24 stephen wolfram fuck that guy or suchlike 16:59:32 to date there have been 34 stephen wolframs 16:59:42 A new kind of stephen 16:59:44 fuck that position? 16:59:46 fuck that fuck 16:59:52 but yeah, if people are interested in this, http://esolangs.org/wiki/1cnis is a start 16:59:53 they all get expert makeovers to make them look like the previous one 17:00:05 so far all of them have died in office 17:00:13 elliott are you writing ankos fanfiction 17:00:18 yes 17:00:19 absolutely 17:00:21 I'd love to prove that a legal initialization pattern for the 2,3 machine can be generated by 1cnis 17:00:25 but so far I haven't even managed that 17:00:30 i hear fanfiction has a nasty tendency to be erotic 17:00:37 just rumors 17:00:47 well ankos fanfiction can only have stephen wolfram in it i think 17:00:49 I'd like to collaborate with #esoteric on this, at least; if you lot think it's important, it's important to me 17:00:52 so it'd have to be necrophilia 17:00:58 elliott: it can have other people whose job is to be irrelevant 17:01:02 and i'm just not sure we can go down that route 17:01:31 i'm sure someone would be into it 17:01:34 "and now", stephen murmured into my ear as I unbuttoned his shirt, "we shall play... the game of life" 17:02:28 "Today's rule is rule 110" 17:02:37 i think wolfram probably hates gol because it isn't one of his 17:02:42 rule 34 automaton 17:02:46 you could make some really stupid rule 34 joke here but 17:02:49 right there we go 17:02:50 ... 17:02:55 ban elliott 17:02:56 guys I hate myself and I hate everyone else 17:02:58 yes 17:03:04 i'd love to, ais523, but unfortunately i'm incompetent 17:03:10 what the wolfram is going on in this channel... 17:03:23 boily: reading scrollback may or may not help 17:03:28 "ankos fanfiction" is literally just a setup for that joke 17:03:36 boily: we're trying to recover lmt's vowels 17:03:42 elliott: what you can do is link to the xkcd comic where he calls rule 34 on wolframs' rule 34 17:03:49 and annoy everyone at once 17:03:55 well ais523 I see a fundamental problem with that plan 17:03:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lmt. 17:04:00 and it's that I'd never be able to sleep at night again 17:04:05 -!- lmt has set channel mode: -b dbelange*!*@*. 17:04:08 -!- lmt has set channel mode: -o lmt. 17:04:10 is lmt banning elliott 17:04:11 oh 17:04:13 ok 17:04:19 -!- dbelange has joined. 17:04:19 who the hell is dbelange 17:04:21 oh 17:04:25 just some guy 17:04:30 `welcome dbelange 17:04:33 dbelange: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:04:42 elliott: if my public service is any indication you can't do that anyway! 17:05:28 dbelange: do you speak french, by chance? 17:05:50 if that is your idea of esoteric 17:06:00 *canned laughter* 17:06:08 *pickled laughter* 17:06:17 oh this reminds me i have a French Question i can't find the answer to 17:06:38 hm? go ahead, maybe I'll answer. maybe I'll even answer correctly! 17:06:54 maybe i'll answer but it sure as heck won't be correct 17:06:55 why's it "par consquent", but "en consquence" 17:07:17 "consquent" is an adjective, isn't it... how does "par" + adjective even work 17:07:20 don't trust boily he's from qùébëč 17:07:25 unfortunately i could not get compose to put an accent over that q 17:07:30 ais523: is the background pattern an automatic sequence? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_sequence 17:08:07 elliott: I modified my layout the other day to be able to get about every possible accent. nothing works on q, to my knowledge :( 17:08:13 tromp__: I don't know, but that looks like a pretty promising link 17:08:33 that should qualify it as sufficiently simple 17:08:41 q̄ 17:08:43 boily: do none of the combining characters render properly? 17:08:47 ais523: thx 17:08:52 http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_type_an_accented_q 17:08:54 is that a macron, are you a wizard 17:09:18 elliott: combining chars work properly, but there ain't no precomposed q with nothing that I know of. 17:09:20 monqy: i answered it 17:09:21 actually I've been using COMBINING MACRON a lot recently, in quickly typed up notes in gedit 17:09:50 -!- Broly has joined. 17:09:53 how do you type a spanish Q? 17:09:58 ¯q 17:10:00 :( 17:10:00 "a spanish Q" 17:10:02 here 17:10:06 qué 17:10:18 Q is Q in Spanish. 17:10:18 -!- md_5 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 17:10:22 Bike: combining character goes after the character it combines on 17:10:29 -!- nooodl has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:10:32 q¯ 17:10:34 this is hard 17:10:36 beautiful 17:10:54 hi i'm broly 17:10:56 -!- nooodl has joined. 17:10:59 i'm not esoteric but i am eccentric 17:10:59 is that like boily 17:11:01 `hello 17:11:03 Hello 17:11:05 `welcome Broly 17:11:07 Broly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:11:19 how dare you mention dal net in front of an efnetter 17:11:21 nooodl: I have no idea about the «conséquent/conséquence» thing. 17:11:26 -!- Broly has left. 17:11:33 q̄. ok. 17:11:33 tromp__: oh, looking at the substitution point of view, I don't think that's enough power 17:11:33 good 17:11:37 mhmmm 17:11:37 really good 17:11:40 wtf is efnet 17:11:42 it is a mystery 17:11:47 wtf is dal 17:11:48 Bike: a major IRC server 17:11:48 Bike: have you never heard of efnet 17:11:51 Bike: have you never heard of dal 17:11:51 presumably it's rivals with dalnet 17:11:58 wtf is heard 17:11:59 or Broly wouldn't have had that reaction 17:12:09 rivals. irc rivals? is that a thing 17:12:14 now I'm reminded of that bash.org oneliner, "what the fuck is wtf" 17:12:17 -!- Broly has joined. 17:12:17 one time ive been on efnet and another time ive been on dal but i didnt actually DO anything there 17:12:22 Bike: and it's probably a thing 17:12:28 fuck dalnet 17:12:32 color script bitch ass nagas 17:12:37 even proving that it's not automatic would be a publishable result 17:12:37 "nagas"? 17:12:39 nagas 17:12:42 ass nagas 17:12:43 like the snake things? 17:12:47 i hear dal is full of crepes 17:12:48 er 17:12:48 yep the serpents from wow 17:12:49 creeps 17:12:52 not crepes! 17:12:53 ass-nagas 17:12:54 ais523: theyre snake people 17:12:57 they're not from wow, they're from mythology :( 17:12:58 oops i stoly monqy's joke 17:12:59 dalnet is probably pedo central and color scripts aplenty 17:13:01 do you want it back monqy 17:13:01 elliott: yeah I know, from NetHack and the like 17:13:09 nooodl: nah it's fine it's pretty bad 17:13:13 monqy stole monqy's joke from xkcd :-/ 17:13:16 I don't think freenode has any major enemies 17:13:17 i remember when i was 11 years old i pretended i was some guy from 5ive and would get nudies from random hoes on teenchat 17:13:18 good times 17:13:28 I don't really like that side of IRC 17:13:40 sensible discussions about programming and the like are so much more interesting 17:13:51 reddit patrol roll out!!! 17:13:56 crush those 9gag kids 17:13:57 there are many more intelligible topics of conversation 17:14:06 but they take effort 17:14:07 not interested in sick porn, ais? prude 17:14:22 is sick porn 17:14:23 like 17:14:28 porn of terminally ill people 17:14:28 yes 17:14:29 yes 17:14:30 i am pretty sure every little 11 year old wanted nudies of hot chicks 17:14:34 Bike: there are so many fetishes in existence, that I doubt there's anyone who's interested in /all/ porn 17:14:40 oh you weirdos 17:14:46 not pedo porn, that's gross 17:14:54 Broly: who are you. you are not me. 17:14:59 wtf 17:15:04 boily: yes he is 17:15:09 i'm not a boily 17:15:11 boily: it's ok, he has a unique two letter prefix. 17:15:12 gross 17:15:19 what's that channel that kicks everyone from the channel simultaneously and sets it to invite only, then invites you? 17:15:20 that sounds like a name for a big pet boil someone would keep 17:15:43 wat is going on here 17:15:50 ais523: chanserv clear 17:15:52 illegal pornography 17:15:56 some efnetter caught wind of something something dalnet 17:15:58 why 17:16:01 ThatOtherPerson: I think we've been invaded 17:16:02 ais523: /msg chanserv clear users #channel 17:16:02 somehow 17:16:03 god knows, thatotherperson 17:16:04 it snowballed 17:16:06 he suggested i check out dalnet 17:16:06 elliott: right 17:16:08 i was like wtf 17:16:23 oh, it's not as dramatic as it used to be 17:16:29 robots aren't people broly 17:16:43 it looked like an automated msg 17:16:45 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:16:49 but it doesn't change the fact that it has dalnet in it 17:17:08 the one time i connected to efnet and then quit i think the motd had a unicorn in it? that sounds about right. 17:17:10 dalnet doesn't deserve to be in any pre-set message 17:17:10 `relcome Broly 17:17:13 `WELCOME Broly 17:17:14 ​Broly: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 17:17:16 BROLY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 17:17:21 o wow 17:17:24 dalnet indeed 17:17:25 hey, how did the color code get into `relcome? 17:17:26 tally ho gents 17:17:31 -!- Broly has left. 17:17:33 ais523: very carefully 17:17:35 bye broly 17:17:39 good job, elliott. gjelliott. 17:17:41 I didn't even realise the channel was colors-allowed 17:17:58 `run cat bin/relcome 17:17:59 you could +c if you dislike it i guess. 17:18:00 ​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | colorize 17:18:01 Bike: i actually apologised to him in /msg first time he quit because i had the feeling there were new levels of stupidity to reach that we deserved to see 17:18:14 `run welcome | hyphenate.fi | colorize 17:18:15 elliott ~_~ 17:18:17 ​Wel-co-me to the in-ter-na-ti-o-nal hub for e-so-te-ric prog-ram-ming lan-gu-a-ge de-sign and dep-lo-y-ment! For mo-re in-for-ma-ti-on, check out our wi-ki: http://e-so-langs.org/wi-ki/Main_Pa-ge. (For the ot-her kind of e-so-te-ri-ca, try #e-so-te-ric on irc.dal.net.) 17:18:22 Bike: it was a long hard battle to get -c here don't undo our progress 17:18:29 aha, the command I was thinking of was /cs recover 17:18:35 `run welcome | uuu | hyphenate.fi | colorize 17:18:37 Oh, are freenode channels +c by default? 17:18:38 ​Uuuuuuu uu uuu uuuuuuuuuuuuu uuu uuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuu uuuuuu uuu uuuuuuuuuu! Uuu uuuu uuuuuuuuuuu, uuuuu uuu uuu uuuu: uuuu://uuuuuuuu.uuu/uuuu/Uuuu_Uuuu. (Uuu uuu uuuuu uuuu uu uuuuuuuuu, uuu #uuuuuuuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.) 17:18:44 something like that yes 17:18:59 "More precisely, everyone will be deopped, limit and clear will be cleared, all bans matching you are removed, a ban exception matching you is added (in case of bans Atheme can't see), the channel is set invite-only and moderated and you are invited." 17:19:03 this place is no fun, let's move to dal, they know how to party 17:19:04 that's pretty dramatic 17:19:16 ais523: the final solution of irc moderation 17:19:17 ais523: that sounds like fun, let's try it out 17:19:27 `run welcome | hyphenate | uuu | sed 's/dal/efnet/' | rainwords 17:19:30 bash: hyphenate: command not found 17:19:35 `run welcome | hyphenate.fi | uuu | sed 's/dal/efnet/' | rainwords 17:19:38 ​Uuu-uu-uu uu uuu uu-uuu-uu-uu-u-uuu uuu uuu u-uu-uu-uuu uuuu-uuu-uuuu uuu-uu-u-uu uu-uuuu uuu uuu-uu-u-uuuu! Uuu uu-uu uu-uuu-uu-uu-uu, uuuuu uuu uuu uu-uu: uuuu://u-uu-uuuuu.uuu/uu-uu/Uuuu_Uu-uu. (Uuu uuu uu-uuu uuuu uu u-uu-uu-uu-uu, uuu #u-uu-uu-uuu uu uuu.uuu.uuu.) 17:19:45 lol 17:19:59 `run cat `which rainwords` 17:20:00 ​#!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + str(r[(i+s)%len(r)]) + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w) 17:20:03 `run grep   bin/* 17:20:06 Binary file bin/fortune matches \ Binary file bin/tclkit matches 17:20:17 what does rainwords do?????????????????????????????? 17:20:22 `run echo hello tset | rainwords 17:20:24 ​hello tset 17:20:24 coloris per-word 17:20:29 ah. why rain 17:20:30 'imo obvisoe" 17:20:33 like rainbow 17:20:46 Also a predefined cycle of. 17:20:47 i hear uk has a lot of rain dont you see those things 17:20:49 oh i guess rainbows are technically made of rain 17:20:55 `run rainwords Python error: is a directory, cannot continue 17:21:03 `run rainwords bash: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory 17:21:14 `ls /usr/share/dict 17:21:15 No output. 17:21:20 elliott: no they're made of sunlight 17:21:24 There are no words. 17:21:25 the rain is responsible for making them 17:22:07 `fetch en.wikipedia.org/wiki/rainbow 17:22:11 2013-03-18 17:22:09 URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow [138931/138931] -> "rainbow" [1] 17:22:17 `rainwords ais523: technically they are made of rainbow 17:22:49 No output. 17:22:58 `run rainwords ​ \ \ \ Rainbow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia \ \ \ ais523: so you don't have to type that perl onelnier 17:25:21 ais523: It's all to make people feel extra-welcome, I think. 17:25:56 I guess the topic is at fault 17:26:08 elliott: do you still have optbot around? 17:26:09 or, hmm 17:26:11 `pastlog 17:26:12 -!- lmt has set topic: The least welcoming channel on Freenode. You have been warned. | #esoteric is supposed to be about esoteric programming languages, but is really a couple of dozen people being weird | Newsflash: fungot has been writing spam for money. | Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 17:26:28 (today is worse than average in terms of random line quality, so `pastlog will be marginally better than `log) 17:26:39 shuf: memory exhausted 17:26:48 rip 17:26:50 :( 17:26:52 `log 17:26:55 2003-09-10.txt:07:59:59: -!- clog has quit (ended). 17:26:58 hmm 17:27:07 good log 17:27:10 haha 17:27:12 poor clog 17:27:19 ais523: I don't have optbot, but it's easy to write it 17:27:21 it'll act as an obituary for clog, except that it's still here 17:27:23 elliott: indeed 17:27:26 `log 17:27:26 that's what I usually do when I want optbot back 17:27:29 2008-03-06.txt:03:34:35: it's so awesome, you could say "awesome is cise", and not be wrong. 17:27:39 ok that's better 17:27:41 last time I revived optbot a few people whineda bout it existing though 17:27:45 and even vaguely ontopic 17:27:47 (fsvo whine) 17:27:53 elliott: insufficiently many for it to be an official bot? 17:27:59 hey quick someone invent a new bf joust strategy 17:28:08 istr knowing what optbot was but then i forgot 17:28:19 ais523: well a certain few people were vocal about their dislike of its valuable topic-changing service 17:28:28 ais523: whereby vocal means, one of them created a bot specifically to revert optbot's topic-changes 17:28:34 then they all got banned 17:28:39 antioptbot was hilarious 17:28:43 n.b. this is really stupid 17:28:56 antioptbot sounds cute 17:29:00 elliott: Yes, but it didn’t have hyphenate.fi in the middle. 17:29:09 what's .fi 17:29:17 TLD for finland 17:29:24 or in this case, more likely language code for finnish 17:29:35 `run echo $LANG 17:29:38 en_NZ.UTF-8 17:29:49 http://hypenate.fi/ should be a web interface to hyphenate.fi 17:29:59 what is it actually? NXDOMAIN? 17:30:03 also it's misspelld 17:30:04 telnet hyphenate.fi a netcat interface, etc. 17:30:11 er *h 17:30:18 hyphenate.fi appears to not exist 17:30:25 ion: get on it 17:30:26 HackEgo runs on New Zealand English? 17:30:32 why do we need a web service for everything anyway? 17:30:41 I'd rather have a local executable for hyphenating Finnish, than a webservice 17:30:56 i always knew finnish was an esoteric language 17:31:00 but then how will you hyphenate finnish on your smartphone 17:31:01 Taneb: my theory is that it runs on en_NZ specifically to cause people to ask why it runs on en_NZ 17:31:11 Fair enough 17:31:15 elliott: That would cost moneys. :-( 17:31:20 Why not en_SA? 17:31:27 SA? 17:31:29 en_FI 17:31:39 because I don't think we have any new zealanders here 17:31:51 fi_VITTU 17:31:54 whereas there is one former-regular who was south african 17:32:05 "Because people complained when I set it to zh_TW" is what Gregor last answered when it was asked. 17:32:06 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:32:30 of course they would 17:32:34 that's a political statement 17:32:37 `run sed -e '1,/mw-content-text/ d' -e 's/<[^>]*>//g' ​Double rainbow and supernumerary rainbows on the inside of the primary arc. The shadow of the photographer's head on the bottom marks the centre of the rainbow circle (antisolar point). A rainbow is an optical and meteorological phenomenon that is caused by 17:32:50 :) 17:32:52 fizzie: And that is the reason. 17:33:08 It almost looks like a triple rainbow. 17:33:09 hmm, those two magentas are very close 17:33:11 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:33:13 'and supernumerary", etc. 17:33:16 Gregor: Well, we'll all form our own opinions on that. 17:33:23 the two magentas look pretty different to me 17:33:24 oh wait, I know why I'm confused 17:33:26 -!- tos9 has joined. 17:33:29 I set my client to filter out colors 17:33:32 yes, very different magentas 17:33:37 but some of them are showing anyway 17:33:46 not now, but earlier 17:33:56 ^rainbow2 has a different (longer) set of colors, but it's not any more rainbowy. 17:33:56 ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████ ...too much output! 17:34:23 It also has the greyscale gradient in it. 17:34:30 that is not a rainbow. 17:34:59 ^rainbow Everything is a rainbow in your HEART. 17:35:00 Everything is a rainbow in your HEART. 17:35:19 monqy: they can't look different to you because we use the same irc client and terminal....... 17:35:37 elliott: but do we use the same eyes alt. monitor configs alt. colorsets alt. 17:35:42 you might have different color profiles on your screens 17:35:52 monqy: i've used monqy's eyes since 2012-01-04 17:36:02 they're a 2.17x improvement over my previous eyes 17:36:07 -!- edwardk has joined. 17:37:24 -!- md_5 has joined. 17:37:56 (He now has 4.34 eyes) 17:38:43 O_O_O_. 17:38:49 `bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[-])*21 17:38:51 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bfjoust: not found 17:38:54 !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[-])*21 17:38:58 wrong bot 17:39:08 ​Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 15.9 17:39:12 not bad 17:39:29 Unfortunately, Codu is once again running near its load limit, though I don't precisely know why *sigh* 17:39:34 !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[>(>[-])*21])*21 17:39:37 ​Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 9.9 17:39:41 !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[(>[-])*21])*21 17:39:45 ​Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 7.1 17:39:51 !bfjoust does_this_work_yet (>)*8(>[(>>>+++++[-])*21])*21 17:39:55 ​Score for ais523_does_this_work_yet: 2.9 17:39:58 hmm 17:40:02 I guess it doesn't work yet 17:40:57 fungot: How many eyes have you got? 17:40:57 fizzie: ummm......what were we talking about again? :) 17:41:06 fungot: Eyes. Have you got them? 17:41:06 fizzie: in implementations with fast call/ cc actually does have a point 17:41:50 * ais523 is reminded of Subtle Cough 17:42:02 IIRC that only had three essentially different programs, didn't it? 17:43:22 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:43:44 I'm still leading the "ends a line with ? and a space" statistics: http://sprunge.us/Cfgg 17:44:32 Man, I'm at 3? When the hell did I ever boff up and do that... 17:44:42 ooh, I'm not even on the list 17:44:51 presumably you mean "? ", not " ?"? 17:45:09 Yes. 17:45:10 enigma has different floors ! 17:45:40 ais523: You have a 1 in my logs, if one looks at the full list: http://sprunge.us/eGcV 17:45:43 (the game never actually says that) 17:45:59 `log .*\?\ $ 17:46:08 -!- Taneb has joined. 17:46:14 wow i have one???how did that happen 17:46:22 and not happen more 17:46:26 2012-01-12.txt:12:21:33: cpressey: ever consider a timecube esolang? 17:46:39 fizzie: I was quoting someone else, that doesn't count 17:46:54 `log .*\?\ $ 17:47:01 2012-12-14.txt:23:05:57: % of fungot quotes present in qdb actually verbatim??? 17:47:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:47:20 monqy: "??? ", nice 17:47:40 what's the syntax for log 17:47:53 there isn't one 17:48:05 in fact, it doesn't actually exist. HackEgo is just a very helpful person 17:48:10 ok then i'll just copy it without understanding anything 17:48:14 `log .*\?\ $ 17:48:21 No output. 17:48:24 RIP 17:48:37 good implicit denial of chomskyism elliott 17:48:41 lmt: it's PCRE 17:49:01 Pitifully Crappy Regular Expressions 17:49:17 it's not actually PCRE 17:49:26 hmm 17:49:32 it acts like a subset, at least 17:49:34 perl incompatible irregular expressions 17:49:36 that would be pcregrep 17:49:40 oh right 17:49:56 OK, it isn't PCRE, but it's accepted every PCRE-compatible expression I've tried to feed to it 17:50:01 although admittedly I haven't tried very many 17:50:09 perl compatible regular expression compatible 17:50:38 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:51:19 Bike: Perl Compatible Regular Expression Compatible Expression 17:51:35 `log ^(.{2,}{2,}$(*COMMIT)(*FAIL)|.) 17:51:35 help 17:51:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 17:51:37 grep: nothing to repeat 17:51:43 OK, not PCRE 17:51:57 `cat bin/log 17:51:58 that expression, if I've translated it correctly from Prolog, should match lines with a prime number of characters 17:51:59 ​#!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi 17:52:00 very inefficiently 17:52:10 library that determines if a given library has perl-compatible regexes 17:52:12 might as well say perl compatible regular expression compatible regular expression 17:52:32 "thing" 17:52:34 Bike: drop-in replacement for that library 17:52:42 what the heck is commit, oh man 17:53:20 backtracking verbs. backtracking verbs 17:53:21 Bike: it's like an indirect cut in Prolog, makes the entire expression fail if you backtrack into it 17:54:06 man at least snobol didn't pretend its matching was regular 17:54:15 for smaller cuts, you have (*SKIP) that causes the expression to only be able to match in a different place, and (*PRUNE) that works exactly like a prolog cut 17:54:42 and really, the only reason Perl calls them regexes nowadays is that it has to call them /something/ 17:54:49 elliott: do Perl regexen count as an esolang? 17:54:52 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 17:55:00 ais523: if you call them "regexen" then yes. 17:55:10 there's that `funny page, about perl isnt there. heh heh. 17:55:11 the name determines whether they're an esolang? 17:55:16 monqy: perl as a whole isn't 17:55:21 but some embedded parts of it feel like it 17:55:24 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:55:29 just like compile-time C++ is often considered an esolang 17:55:42 ais523: you've seen that regex debugger that had a function that wasn't actually a function but instead looked through the file it was compiled in to find its call site and then analyzed the regex it was passed, right 17:55:43 monqy: do you mean the esowiki page about perl. I like that one because of oerjan's interpretation 17:55:45 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl um wiki begs to differ 17:55:46 "pretty esoteric" 17:55:46 wait, no 17:55:51 elliott: yes 17:55:52 Prolog cut is (*THEN) 17:56:12 elliott: that's beautiful 17:56:37 ais523: compile time C++ as in metatemplate programming and the likes? 17:56:40 AnotherTest: yeah 17:56:45 i guess drawing the line between 'esolang' and 'language well suited to esoteric programming' is like drawing the line between 'functional language' and whatever 17:56:49 hm, what would happen if i made a page for C using that example from unix-hater 17:57:01 functional langauge with chinese characteristics 17:57:03 i'd start a horrible trend of mocking languages based on syntax probably 17:57:15 ais523: I guess, although it is used in real code (especially libraries) too 17:57:30 AnotherTest: Boost doesn't count, it's probably the world's finest example of serious esoprogramming 17:57:36 kmc: i think i need to adopt that idiom 17:57:37 ais523: loki? 17:57:58 i think that boost parser thing, specifically, is the world's finest example of serious esoprogramming 17:57:58 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:58:04 Also, there's probably a lot more libraries besides boost and loki 17:58:05 Bike: all sorts of parts of Boost are wonderful 17:58:12 yes but especially the parser 17:58:12 I should probably read its source some day 17:58:22 you know the one, the one that makes a parser out of templates 17:58:26 comp.lang.c particularly likes the preprocessor library 17:58:26 two kilobyte symbol names etc 17:58:27 boost.spirit? 17:58:30 yeah that one 17:58:32 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 17:58:32 partly because that's the only part they're allowed to talk about 17:58:43 people tend to judge Boost as a single entity when really it's a huge collection of unrelated libraries by different people 17:58:49 many of which are quite simple and sane and essential 17:58:50 Great, unless you actually plan on using it (and if you don't have a few hours time to wait until compilation is done) 17:58:56 but the real cool thing is 17:59:00 kmc: which is why i'd rather pick out spirit. 17:59:06 some people actually wrote compile-time compilers 17:59:19 kmc: yes but the insane parts are more fun to talk about 18:00:02 I was going to say "why would you make a compile-time compiler anyway" 18:00:05 then realised I could think of reasons 18:00:08 not /good/ reasons, but… 18:00:28 oh i look compile time compilers something something lisp something 18:00:43 do compilers count as compile time compilers 18:00:44 ais523: one reason would be "because you can" 18:00:45 *like 18:01:00 another one would be "because it looks cool" 18:01:09 well, i guess JITs and other runtime-accessible compilers don't 18:01:37 What is a compile-time compiler? 18:02:00 a compiler that compiles when it does 18:02:02 I'd say it is a compiler that compiles its input during compile-time 18:02:19 Bike: ThatOtherPerson: my interpretation was "something written in language X, that contains code in language Y, which when compiled compiles language Y into language X and feeds it to the compiler it's being compiled with" 18:02:22 ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkay 18:02:55 ais523: seems pretty usual to me. constant regexes for example 18:03:02 regexepodes? 18:03:25 regices 18:03:53 Someone should write a compile-time compiler for C++ in C++. 18:04:05 Bike: indeed, that's what I meant by saying I could think of reasons 18:04:11 but compiling separately seems saner 18:04:19 Although, it could be said that that's very easy 18:04:23 compiling separately meaning what 18:04:37 having a seperate regex->target to go with language->target? 18:05:07 Bike: yes 18:05:25 and possibly adding the regex→target into the language→target compiler 18:05:32 if you compile to language you could use it anywhere language works, though 18:06:19 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:06:54 actually who does anyone still /run/ programs written in C++ these days? 18:07:06 was that supposed to be "why"? 18:07:11 yes 18:07:14 What's XChat written in? What are web browsers written in? 18:07:26 because programs written in C++ are super common and work, i imagine 18:07:28 What's KDE and various KDE programs written in? 18:07:47 fsvo work, but that goes for about everything. 18:07:52 Biki: why not have the compiler run it? 18:07:56 AnotherTest: regardless of what OS you're using, you're likely to be using a program written in C++ at the moment 18:07:56 AnotherTest: it's going to be a whole lot faster than anything written in Python or Ruby 18:07:59 AnotherTest, I very much doubt your computer is completely devoid of machine code that was compiled from C++ 18:08:01 ugh 18:08:04 (the chances are lowest on OS X, out of the widely used OSes) 18:08:07 AnotherTest: most windows machines don't have C++ compilers, i don't think 18:08:21 Bike: indeed, but most windows programs use precompiled executables 18:08:36 ais523, on OS X iirc the driver framework in the kernel uses C++ 18:08:40 not having a C++ compiler is like 18:08:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:08:43 i'm sorry, kmc. we have to establish our programming cred by disparaging languages we know not much about with no reference to specific implementations. it's a fact of life 18:08:50 pretty much everything in OS X is written in "Objective C++" 18:08:55 which is a superset of C++ 18:08:59 Bike: don't worry, C++ is a language you're allowed to dislike 18:09:05 lmt: transparent trolling attempt? 18:09:09 no 18:09:11 lmt, objective C afaik 18:09:11 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:09:12 lmt: like "we added objects to C++" 18:09:12 fact 18:09:18 at least the GUI 18:09:18 Objective C++ is a real thing 18:09:19 not objective C++ 18:09:23 kind of a monstrosity 18:09:23 (actually objective C++ actually exists, but objective C is more common) 18:09:26 afaik 18:09:26 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:09:33 kmc: I think gcc can compile it 18:09:35 yep 18:09:37 objective C++ is extremely common and commonly used by apple 18:09:38 kmc, true, but it isn't used much on OS X afaik 18:09:46 it has the ObjC object model and the C++ object model living together in sin 18:09:53 How about Subjective C? Subjects instead of objects? 18:09:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host). 18:09:55 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:10:01 Sgeo: :-) 18:10:05 Sgeo: that's a great idea 18:10:07 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:10:08 Sgeo: if you google you can find a semi-funny parody about Objectivist C 18:10:10 puns about "subjective" and "objectivism" hurt man 18:10:11 subject-oriented programming 18:10:11 they hurt 18:10:18 that is a great idea 18:10:19 If an object model lies with another object model as it does with a paradigm, it shall be stoned to death. 18:10:32 objective c++ is pretty bad 18:10:37 Gregor, -_- 18:10:38 but it allows you to use c++ libraries 18:10:47 kmc: i can't imagine C++ objects and objc objects being very uh, workable together, at all 18:10:50 and everything is written in c++, so 18:10:56 hmm… most C++ libraries are for games programming 18:11:00 Oh, it already exists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject-oriented_programming 18:11:01 Vorpal: What, you don't like Bible jokes? X-D 18:11:06 ooh ooh i have another pun how about a langauge called.......c(incomprehensible squiggles) 18:11:14 somebody pointed out that ObjC and C++ are a good demonstration of why syntax isn't everything... C++ is closer to C in syntax but is a beast of a language, 20 times more complicated than C 18:11:19 interesting fact about Windows: the vast majority of native-code Windows programs are written in C++, but the system libraries they link against are entirely in C 18:11:28 ThatOtherPerson: wait, is this real or did someone just hack wikipedia 18:11:28 in terms of ABI 18:11:28 ObjC has syntax that looks weird to a C programmer but is really a pretty modest extension to the language 18:11:36 Gregor, I don't think that was the issue in this case. It was just cringe-worthy... 18:11:37 Bike: they are just as workable as any kind of incompatible types 18:11:58 AnotherTest: anyone (unless they don't have internet access or have been blocked) can create a page on Wikipedia, no hacking required 18:12:07 (or do have internet access but can't use a computer for some reason) 18:12:21 (or unless they have sufficiently short time to live that they die before they can finish creating the page) 18:12:25 (or probably other things I haven't thought of) 18:12:27 AnotherTest: if it's in Wikipedia it's real. You can use this fact to modify the universe around you 18:12:28 « As illustrated in that paper, an analogy is made with the contrast between the philosophical views of Plato and Kant with respect to the characteristics of “real” objects, but applied to software ones. » programmers you need to stop doing this 18:12:35 :3 18:12:46 actually if everyone could just stop making kant agree with them that woud be great 18:12:53 is object-oriented programming phallocentric 18:12:56 this isn't the nineteenth century and you're not a philosopher 18:13:01 ThatOtherPerson: that is actually sadly truer than it might look 18:13:02 Bike: I'd like to stop doing that, but I Kant 18:13:03 sorry 18:13:10 my CS degree automatically makes me an expert in philosophy, medicine, and law 18:13:16 because those are for dumb people 18:13:19 there are definitely nontrivial ways in which you can modify the universe via editing wikipedia 18:14:14 i mean kay was definitely an avid plato reader when he came up with smalltalk but you can't just pretend simula and biology weren't super important 18:14:14 18:14:16 ais523, hm. Would anyone sane use wikipedia for something important without doing further research? 18:14:27 whoa kmc i thought you were serious for a second!! 18:14:31 a lot of people do Vorpal 18:14:35 Do sane people actually exist? 18:14:36 kmc, I would argue that doing that makes you insane. 18:14:37 If there's zen programming, there should be like philosophic programming? 18:14:42 Bike: i've realized not everyone knows when i'm kidding 18:14:43 kmc, thus meaning that they are not sane 18:14:45 zen programming, what the fuck is that 18:14:49 Vorpal: perhaps; I needed an algorithm for topological sort 18:14:54 Sgeo, interesting question 18:14:56 also "sane" and "insane" are kind of dumb terms 18:15:04 neither is even used medically any more! 18:15:05 I think for a modest fee you could pay people to listen to everything you say (via hidden microphone / smartphone) and edit Wikipedia in real time so that you're always correct about stuff 18:15:10 so I got one off Wikipedia (the algorithm, that is; I implemented the code myself), and it appears to work, and is currently in production code 18:15:13 this would be a great trick 18:15:21 Bike: I have absolutely no idea what that is 18:15:22 ais523, was it for use in something important? Or just a hobby project? 18:15:24 kmc: you don't need money, just fame 18:15:30 heh true 18:15:31 Hrm 18:15:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:15:34 anything that stephen colbert says, for instance 18:15:45 kmc: a recent boondocks episode had a judge check wikipedia to see if obama had legalized weed. good stuff 18:15:55 although Wikipedia editors have taken to also listening to everything he says so that they can revert attempts by people to add it to articles 18:16:04 "hm, doesn't look like he has. oh but several states..." 18:16:20 Vorpal: it's in the Verity compiler 18:16:31 Hrrm 18:16:48 although I may need to change it for computational order reasons, it turns out that linked lists of pairs are not the most efficient representations of directed possibly-acyclic graphs 18:17:01 ais523, I wouldn't have done that myself. I would probably have started at wikipedia, but then gone on to check the sources it cited. 18:17:17 Bike: that show still exists? woah 18:17:19 you need cites for some topological sort pseudocode? 18:17:24 kmc: i know, i was surprised too, but there it was 18:17:35 episode was about Grandpa smoking weed. good episode 18:17:40 Vorpal: yeah but checking to see if the algorithm looks reasonable, and the page hasn't been edited in ages, and there's no clear sign of vandalism 18:17:47 ais523, that might work 18:17:53 Bike, If I was going to use it for something in research or production yes 18:18:13 i am sloppier than you then, i'd just implement it and check to see that it worked 18:18:33 clearly this is why i'm unemployed 18:18:46 Bike, well, I would be worried about there being some fault that only showed up in some edge cases, if the algorithm was non-trivial at least. 18:18:56 Vorpal: it's also quite hard (although not impossible) to hide a logic bomb in a mathematical description of an algorithm 18:19:07 i'd be worried about that from the cited pages too 18:19:16 Is Internet Relay Programming like human-objected programing? 18:19:18 it's happened before now (most famously an accidental self-inflicted one on Knuth), but it's rare 18:19:25 *oriented ugh 18:19:37 i mean we all know the story about that C pearls sort or w/e that had a wraparound error 18:19:53 Bike, I don't know that story 18:19:54 tell me 18:20:08 I also don't know that story 18:20:29 the one I was thinking about was about concurrent garbage collection, which is a field inherently prone to bizarre edge cases and even corner cases 18:20:40 many binary search implementations in C are broken because (left + right) / 2 can overflow 18:20:43 basically a commonly repeated binary search algorithm had the usual (hi + lo) /2 to find the median 18:20:46 yeah that 18:20:49 http://googleresearch.blogspot.com/2006/06/extra-extra-read-all-about-it-nearly.html 18:21:03 ah 18:21:11 fucking C programmers 18:21:14 yes, that would be one thing that would worry me 18:21:39 kmc: oh, that one 18:21:56 Vorpal: that one's at least as likely to come up in a binary search written from scratch 18:22:02 * Bike realizes he made the same error in some quick code he spit out, though it would fall back to bignums so it's just a speed problem 18:22:09 and even more likely to come up in academic paper implementations, which don't have to worry about overflow 18:22:13 one of Ksplice's upstream Linux contributions was finding the dozens of binary search implementations in Linux, most of which were broken in this way, and replacing them with a library 18:22:17 ais523, true 18:22:25 WAIT 18:22:26 wer 18:22:27 wait 18:22:32 * kmc waits 18:22:32 kmc: whoa whoa whoa, code reuse? in real life? 18:22:34 ais523, which is why you should probably use your standard library if possible 18:22:36 kmc: arguably if you have equal-sized ints and pointers, and you're sorting things larger than a single byte 18:22:43 doesn't division work like normal in modular arithmetic 18:22:49 ais523, that is probably the safest bet. Either that or a dedicated math library 18:22:51 the overflow can't happen due to the numbers not working large enough 18:22:52 Phantom_Hoover: no 18:22:53 what does "like normal" mean 18:22:57 addition subtraction multiplication do 18:22:57 ais523: maybe you binary search indices rather than pointers 18:22:58 division doesn't 18:23:02 Phantom_Hoover: the problem is the intermediate hi+lo 18:23:03 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:23:20 wait right 18:23:20 Bike: well this isn't even a pedantic "signed overflow is undefined" thing 18:23:24 it breaks even on two's complement 18:23:37 although it would if you weren't doing it mod 2^n! 18:23:42 (btw, what's the most commonly used system that isn't two's complement?) 18:23:48 everyone knows overflow doesn't actually ever happen 18:23:50 sign and magnitude? 18:24:01 no, I meant computer system 18:24:03 ais523, sign bit, in floats 18:24:07 Vorpal: I guess 18:24:11 sign and magnitude is a computer system... 18:24:15 but two's complement doesn't work with floats 18:24:20 i don't think any recent architectures use it of course 18:24:24 Bike: well, processor + accompanying electronics 18:24:25 ais523, you didn't specify integers only 18:24:33 Vorpal: I know 18:24:42 architecture is probably the word I was looking for 18:24:45 ais523: i'm mostly sure that some old architectures used sign+magnitude for integers 18:25:07 manitude 18:25:21 elliott: ooh, Verity reached a milestone recently: it got sufficiently good at interacting with other people's systems that it had its first endianness issue 18:25:22 i want to say VAX but i say VAX for everything 18:25:35 I feel that this is something of a milestone 18:25:36 ais523, everything modern uses two complement for integer arithmetics afaik. And unsigned division/multiplication of course. 18:25:41 I don't know about relative magnitudes (pun not intended), but it's a well-known fact that sign-and-magnitude, one's-complement and two's-complement are the "big three". 18:25:51 -!- edwardk has joined. 18:25:55 oh, IBM 7090 18:25:56 most research languages never get to have endianness issues because they handle all the representations-of-integers themselves 18:25:57 older than i thought 18:25:59 internally 18:26:10 ais523, heh nice 18:26:20 "This numeric representation system was common in older computers; the PDP-1, CDC 160A and UNIVAC 1100/2200 series, among many others, used ones'-complement arithmetic." okay real old here 18:26:37 ais523, you might run into bit endianness in verity I presume? 18:26:47 we should all use log log representation of everything 18:26:48 unless I'm thinking of another language 18:26:53 fun fact: one's complement is basically as easy to implement in hardware as two's complement, you feed the carry output from the last adder into the carry input of the first 18:26:58 sometimes i interview co-op students and ask them what is the advantage of two's complement 18:27:14 Vorpal: only possibly in drivers 18:27:18 this was a byte endianness issue 18:27:20 «Google's Protocol Buffers "zig-zag encoding" is a system similar to sign-and-magnitude, but uses the least significant bit to represent the sign and has a single representation of zero. This has the advantage to make variable-length quantity encoding efficient with signed integers.» ooh, neat 18:27:24 lmt: "co-op students"? 18:27:25 ais523, ah 18:27:32 co-op students 18:27:34 luckily I don't have to write the drivers any more 18:27:35 ais523: But you have a more difficult equality comparison, thanks to -0. 18:27:38 lmt: as in, what are those? 18:27:38 ais523, wasn't verity the hardware compiling language? 18:27:42 Vorpal: yes 18:27:50 they are students who get temporary internships at companies 18:28:00 which somehow count towards their CS degree 18:28:04 ais523, surely you can run into bit-endianness talking to native vhdl or verilog components then? 18:28:18 Vorpal: no because VHDL and Verilog both abstract away bit endianness 18:28:27 really? Huh 18:28:30 actually technically speaking VHDL doesn't, but indexing an array forwards will get you lynched 18:28:48 ais523, I thought you could set whichever direction you wanted in VHDL at least 18:28:54 writing std_logic_vector(3 downto 0) is fine 18:28:56 ais523: There's at least one balanced ternary computer too. 18:29:07 writing std_logic_vector(0 to 3) will cause everyone to hate you and refuse to work with your code 18:29:21 also I think you get at least a warning if you mix endiannesses 18:29:24 ais523, does that change the endianness? I forgot heh 18:29:34 or to put it another way, VHDL does have both endiannesses but one of them won and nobody uses the other one 18:29:39 except by mistake 18:29:57 ais523, what if you want to change the endianness in order to talk to some external hardware though? 18:30:37 hm 18:30:41 Vorpal: you do that by redefining what internal signal is attached to what pin 18:30:58 ais523, well, for a serial protocol maybe? 18:31:03 which needn't necessarily be in any particular order, because the order your pins go in depends on what leads to the most convenient wiring 18:31:05 I guess that is just over time though 18:31:13 for a serial protocol it depends on how you write your modem 18:31:28 Is modem really the right word here? 18:31:29 ais523: Hopefully, you know some things of Verilog like what I was asking of? 18:31:57 zzo38: can you repeat the question? I might know the answer but didn't see the question 18:32:01 I don't think it counts as a modem if there's no MODulation going on. 18:32:07 Vorpal: would "codec" be better? 18:32:14 maybe 18:32:20 fizzie: there is modulation going on, though 18:32:24 of a simplistic sort 18:33:34 ais523: I have various questions, actually. One is, can the I/O ports of a module be vectors that are split across different parts of the I/O list, rather than necessarily being all together? 18:33:35 ais523: Possibly it's an endec. (I think that's a wider concept?) 18:33:47 codec? 18:33:53 ais523, By that definition almost all electronic is a modem 18:33:54 encoder/decoder, rather than coder/decoder? 18:34:37 ais523: Yes, and to differentiate from the compressor/decompressor alt of codec. 18:35:38 Wikipedia page on endec suggests that endecs are hardware while codecs are software, but given the page, it's probably just some random jerk's opinion. 18:40:54 never heard of endecs before today 18:40:56 ais523: I do have other questions too, such as do you know about Verilog with analog signals too? 18:41:23 I wonder why my router things that one of my computer's names is in upper case 18:41:25 zzo38: Verilog synthesizers don't handle analog signals, and the language does not have very good support for them 18:41:25 hm 18:41:48 also, the I/O ports of a module all have to be declared in the same place, but there doesn't have to be any other relation between them 18:41:55 never heard of endecs before today <-- same 18:42:40 I don't think VHDL does analog signals either? 18:42:54 Maybe simulation only thingy for logging or something? 18:43:39 ais523: Yes I know that they are declared in the same place, I mean can I declare PRG_A[11:0] and then some other I/O and then PRG_A[12:14] after that (the different direction is deliberate)? 18:43:51 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:44:13 zzo38: no, you can't do that, you're declaring variables and types for them 18:44:31 what you can do, and what I often do, is just assign the publicly visible ports to internal variables at the start of your code 18:44:35 Actually I mean inside of the I/O list for the module, rather than the declaration for the types. 18:44:56 zzo38, try it and see what happens? 18:45:01 ais523: O, OK, if that is how it has to use? 18:45:11 zzo38: that's the simplest way I know of 18:45:12 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:45:56 ais523: Why didn't they make it allowed? 18:46:22 zzo38: because it's a programming language, you declare variables and types for them 18:46:35 you don't declare half a variable, then the type of that half, and later on decide to add more on to the same variable 18:46:46 But there is a I/O list for the module, isn't it? 18:47:11 yes, but that's still a list of parameters and types for them 18:47:18 I agree it doesn't make sense when declaring the type and variable generally, but in the I/O list it seem it should be allowed? 18:47:22 in C, you don't do int foo(int a, short b, actually a is a long) 18:47:37 you can argue that Verilog should be designed less like a programming language 18:47:48 but it was designed as a programming language, and so follows similar conventions 18:49:15 ais523: Of course in C there is no such thing; it would mess up the calling conventions. 18:49:32 zzo38: Verilog also has calling conventions, it couldn't be compiled or simulated otherwise 18:50:02 But aren't the Verilog calling conventions just the orders of the bits, or did I do something wrong? 18:50:15 Does MIT still have all their DNS records in UPPER CASE? 18:50:31 "169.22.9.18.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer WWW.MIT.EDU" APPARENTLY 18:50:59 zzo38: well, they have inputs and outputs and inouts, that's also important 18:51:10 and support for types other than bits at least in simulatoin 18:51:13 *simulation 18:51:24 in at least VHDL simulations, and probably Verilog too, you can even do string handling if you feel like it 18:52:35 fizzie: MIT has the whole 18.0.0.0/8 at their disposition. 18:52:55 boily: Well I have the whole 10/8 here SO THERE. 18:52:59 Okay, so it's not quite the same thing. 18:53:07 > 10/8 18:53:10 1.25 18:53:25 I congratulate you on your one and a quarter, fizzie 18:54:11 -!- azaq23 has joined. 18:54:37 Anyway, "Defense Information Systems Agency" has the whole 22.0.0.0/8, 26.0.0.0/8, 29.0.0.0/8 and 30.0.0.0/8. I'm sure they make good use of them. 18:55:12 ais523: Can module I/O be formats other than fixed number of bits, though? At least in some cases, a bit-count calling convention for module I/O might be useful, even though in some cases it might not be appropriate, possibly. 18:55:22 speaking of quarters, I have one from connecticut in my wallet. 18:55:42 zzo38: Verilog tries to hide its type system by making everything bits 18:56:03 but it has to interoperate with VHDL, which has quite an obvious type system 18:56:34 fizzie: are those the people the Internet was created for in the first place? 18:57:04 ais523: They certainly have a big chunk of it, still. 18:57:49 I don't know how it differs from Army Information Systems Center (who have 6.0.0.0/8), but I suppose it's very different. 18:58:01 DISA has a Wikipedia page, the latter doesn't. 18:58:09 fizzie: well that seems to refer to the army in particular 18:58:10 whoah guys hacking is OT on this channel 18:58:17 who's a subset of the military 18:58:28 in fact I'm telling christel 18:59:33 ais523: So would you know if such a thing as this would work with Verilog? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Mapper_768#Submapper_1 18:59:40 Also, I have here a dime and a cent, they've been rolling around my table since a visit to Portland, OR, in September, 2012. I have no idea what to do with them. 19:00:06 zzo38: I'm a bit busy to look at that 19:00:27 It's not like currency exchange places would take them, and the value is so close to zero, it's hard to care terribly much, but on the other hand I don't want to just throw them away either. 19:00:34 The first sixty I/O ports of the main module of the Verilog code must correspond to the pins 01 to 60 of the 60-pin Famicom cartridge, in that order. This is followed by the pins for the PRG ROM, CHR ROM, non-battery PRG RAM, non-battery CHR RAM, battery PRG RAM, and battery CHR RAM. 19:00:47 fizzie: do you have any children you could give them to? 19:00:51 children often like foreign currency 19:00:55 The commands with $ at front might not be implemented, but should be safely ignored if not implemented. However, if there is a trainer ROM, there will be an additional command $trainer to access 8-bit numbers given the 9-bit address, and $battery_init which tell you if you need to initialize the battery RAM. 19:01:00 Analog commands may be used with the audio signals. 19:01:09 That is the relevant parts. 19:01:19 Is this correct? 19:01:46 fizzie: I once found a French franc in my wallet. I have no idea how it got there. 19:02:02 ais523: I *could* count as a child, and I'm foreign. 19:02:21 I have some foreign money in my desk drawer too. I just keep it there for now. 19:02:37 zzo38: you're not going to be able to synthesize analog circuitry with verilog, its execution model isn't suited to it 19:03:33 ais523: Would it be possible to omit those parts in a digital synthesis though, and then build the analog stuff separately? 19:04:00 zzo38: it's possible to mark parts of VHDL to be ignored by synthesizers; I don't know if Verilog has that feature, but it wouldn't surprise me 19:04:12 the execution model of the language is unsuited to expressing analog circuits, though 19:04:19 ais523, is there any HDL for synthesizing analogue circuits? 19:04:20 -!- hagb4rd has joined. 19:04:24 you could do it but only because Verilog is Turing-complete, it doesn't have any support for it 19:04:31 Vorpal: not that I know of 19:04:35 oh, hmm 19:04:42 there are proprietary simulators that use netlists as input 19:04:48 don't know if there's any standard for those yet 19:04:57 I've never used one but I've read about them 19:05:06 Hm 19:05:09 however, netlists are what typical synthesizers /output/, it's a very very low level format 19:05:12 I read that there is some extensions to Verilog for analog wires 19:05:33 zzo38: the problem is that Verilog/VHDL's execution model is based around storing things in registers at clock edges 19:05:40 sure simulators for analogue circuits exist. I even seen one at university, forgot the name of it. 19:05:41 it's hard to create a reliable analog register 19:05:45 but I meant a HDL 19:06:11 Vorpal: I know, that's why I answered your question the way I answere dit 19:06:14 *answered it 19:06:16 How did the old analog computers work? 19:06:31 Vorpal: they were basically a set of components that you joined together manually 19:06:31 Hm 19:06:36 for electronic computers, with wires 19:06:41 Also, the $trainer and $battery_init commands are not supposed to be synthesizable either; they are meant only for emulation (and possibly could be ignored or switch off by conditional compiling if you are compiling to hardware) 19:06:41 Hm 19:06:44 for the mechanical ones, by placing cogs at appropriate places 19:06:48 to join shafts together 19:06:48 well yes 19:06:50 obviously 19:06:59 ais523, but how did they store information I mean 19:07:03 boily: One used to occasionally-rarely get Italian 500 lire coins in place of the Finnish 10 mark coins, because they look -- http://digilander.libero.it/maggioref/500%20lire%20normali.JPG and http://i.ucoin.net/coin/178/1781/178195_2/finland_10_finnish_markkaa_1993.jpg -- slightly similar at a glance. (And the exchange rates as of the introduction of the euro were something like 500 ITL = ... 19:07:08 what did they use instead of registers 19:07:09 Vorpal: they didn't, that's what "analog" means 19:07:09 ... 1.54 FIM, so it was a good deal to the person who initially put the coin into circulation.) 19:07:21 all data existed instantaneously 19:07:36 and varied over time 19:07:44 Vorpal: are you familiar with data flow programs or synthesizers 19:07:46 ais523, doesn't that analog just mean they are using a continuous signal, instead of two or more levels? 19:07:48 analog computers are like that 19:07:49 an analog computer calculates everything as a function of other things 19:08:01 Bike, no not really 19:08:01 you could have an analog computer with registers 19:08:05 common components would include add, multiply by constant, integrate, differentiate 19:08:11 Hm 19:08:12 i don't think any built one really did, though 19:08:17 since most of them were differential analyzers 19:08:23 ais523, surely you could set up some sort of feedback loop though 19:08:31 Vorpal: yes, they're not very useful without feedback loops 19:08:33 yeah, a feedback loop could be used to store information 19:08:42 ais523, surely you could set up some sort of feedback loop though 19:08:42 Vorpal: yes, they're not very useful without feedback loops 19:08:44 but they're time-continuous feedback loops 19:08:45 wait what? 19:08:46 that's how digital memory worked too :) 19:08:47 fizzie: USD and CAD coins are the same colours, same weight, same sizes, and are worth about the same. they get easily mixed at border areas. 19:08:48 ais523: Well, there is the esolang Proce, for analog stuff too, I have been told, and it include the operations you specified 19:08:54 you get storage, but it's not particularly useful 19:08:57 ais523, hm true 19:09:01 ais523, hey, delay lines 19:09:04 or not particularly like registers 19:09:13 fizzie: still no explanation about that spontaneous franc, which is worth... 19:09:14 Vorpal: delay lines don't work for analog storage 19:09:27 digital delay lines include a "reshaping" circuit that's used to sharpen the corners on the 1s and 0s 19:09:28 really? Don't they just store waves in mercury? 19:09:39 Vorpal: basically a feedback loop is only like a register in that it can be held constant, to get information out you have it "send" it 19:09:41 Vorpal: yeah, the problem is the data degrades a huge amount in transit 19:09:50 ah 19:10:01 anyway, you can also use an integrator to store data 19:10:06 basically the analogy to registers is kind of useless 19:10:10 leave input at 0, it retains its current value 19:10:16 change input to 1 for a second, you're adding 1 19:10:19 maybe you should just read some papers by Shannon or von Neumann and stop listening to me 19:10:23 likewise you can subtract 1 by changing the input to -1 for a second 19:10:36 it's just that these analog components don't behave a whole lot like digital components in general 19:10:40 -!- ais523 has quit. 19:10:40 Shannon developed a model of analog computers, the GPAC, and there's been some not-ancient work on that 19:11:00 somebody or another proved it "equivalent" in a weird way to turing machines 19:11:03 bye ais 19:11:13 hm 19:11:19 fizzie: ~20 ¢, so a gain of approximatively 5 cents. 19:11:22 The reason I want mix analog/digital is not only for Famicom mappers, but also, I have the idea I want to be able to use a Verilog code with Csound, somehow, in order to make a chip tune music with Csound. 19:11:26 Bike, interesting 19:11:42 Does someone other than ais523 have the suggestion of such thing (since ais523 has quit)? 19:12:04 zzo38, write your own simulation in C? It is probably far easier 19:12:08 von neumann wrote a few papers about analog, particularly i've read a paper of his that developed a model of making reliable neural networks (in a not-biological sense, but whatever) out of unreliable analog components 19:12:30 Bike, oh nice 19:12:51 hm or maybe they were just dataflow, but digital... it's been a while 19:13:01 Bike, anyway we make reliable digital electronics out of analog components all the time. Transistors are not perfectly digital. 19:13:06 Vorpal: Yes, it could be written in C to make a Csound plugin, or in the Csound orchestra programming language, but I want to be able to use it with Verilog too 19:13:06 'course 19:13:24 von neumann was writing in like the 50s you realize 19:13:40 transistors were barely extant 19:13:44 indeed 19:13:58 anyway GPACs are more like what ais was talking about 19:14:04 I'm not familiar with how vacuum tubes behave electrically 19:14:09 boily: Back when they introduced a new set of coins (in 1992) for the Finnish mark, many coin-operated vending machines (incl. the soda vending machine at my school... um, hypothetically) accepted the old 0.50 FIM coin as the 5 FIM coin, for a nice factor of 10. (They didn't look particularly similar, but the diameter and weight matched very well.) 19:14:20 Vorpal: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.4667 19:14:48 Hm 19:15:05 i think synthesizers are a good intuitive model of this really 19:15:17 you have something generating a wave, you pass it through a filter 19:15:32 added bonus, you get to help zzo38 with whatever on earth he's doing 19:15:38 hah 19:15:52 is that really a bonus? XD 19:16:19 boily: Or come to think of it (and looking at those dates), maybe it was more like that some new vending machines introduced 5-10 years *after* the coinage change were the ones that confused them. But it was still a nice way to use a pile of leftover 0.50 FIM coins. Same machines also accepted old 0.20 FIM as 1 FIM, but that's just a factor of 5. 19:16:29 Vorpal: Obviously it is. 19:16:41 Can anyone tell me the name of a play about the roman emperor Commodus (before he was emperor) that was written in rhyme and I think iambic pentameter 19:16:42 zzo38 is the new craze that's sweeping the nation. 19:17:15 also i don't understand half of what he's saying so i assume it must be interesting. 19:17:32 it is the '10s, and there is time to zzo38. 19:17:39 Bike: Then you must learn. 19:17:55 Bike, get a FAMICOM emulator and dev kit. 19:17:57 indeed. 19:17:58 That is the first step 19:18:11 (assuming it must be interesting, is not a valid logic, but it is a valid opinion, I guess) 19:18:12 Is this year stamped in the cent the production year? Then I guess this is a reasonably old coin, since it says 1964 on it. 19:18:17 is FAMICOM even an acronym, or are they just yelling 19:18:28 i thought it was Family Computer 19:18:31 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 19:18:32 Bike: It is short for Family Computer 19:18:33 Yeah 19:18:48 FAMILY COMPUTER!!! 19:18:58 also yes it's invalid zzo38, i'm no good with syllogisms 19:18:58 NINTENDO ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM! 19:19:05 how does a FAMICOM and a NES differ? 19:19:12 Apart from region 19:19:23 they didn't have region coding in those days 19:19:25 fizzie: I've never thought how machines recognise coins before now 19:19:32 Bike, true 19:19:37 Vorpal, different external design 19:19:40 (not to say that NES and Famicoms aren't different, they are) 19:19:42 ah okay 19:19:47 Taneb, so internals didn't differ? 19:19:49 elliott: didn't you ever read How Stuff Works as a kid 19:19:54 Bike: ah, so by calling the systems different things people thought you couldn't import the games? 19:19:55 Not as far as I am aware 19:19:57 Ask zzo38 19:20:01 Taneb, why different design though? Seems pointlessly expensive 19:20:03 Magic must be involved. 19:20:11 Vorpal, appeal to different markets 19:20:21 The US video game market had just crashed pretty badly 19:20:25 olsner: back when the NES came out i don't think there was much appeal to importing games. 19:20:29 "oh, only for Famicom? I guess I'll have to wait for the NES release..." 19:20:31 "In the United States, most vending machines have advanced currency detection techniques that can discern coins by reading the coins' "magnetic signature;" thus, many American vending machines will not take coins from other countries, even if their sizes are similar." 19:20:52 Advanced currency detection techniques sounds fancy. 19:21:09 fizzie: originally adapted from cold war soviet sub detection 19:21:17 didn't they use at least different video standards? 19:21:22 Bike: hello 19:21:28 oh, i meant with games specifically 19:21:31 fizzie, iirc it boils down to applying a magnetic field and measuring the deceleration 19:21:36 i think NTSC and PAL an stuff were around yes 19:21:42 hi elliott 19:21:44 hilliotttttt 19:22:00 oh but japan uses NTSC 19:22:04 Bike: that's way too many "t"s 19:22:11 kmc, didn't Japan use NTSC? 19:22:18 I thought only Europe used PAL 19:22:21 The NES/Famicom is mostly the same, although the cartridge is different. Also, the RF Famicom is different to AV Famicom. 19:22:24 I thought japan used secam 19:22:31 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg 19:22:40 olsner, wasn't that France? 19:22:41 wow i've never even heard of secam 19:22:46 Vorpal: most of the world uses PAL 19:23:02 well maybe most? 19:23:05 anyway there's the map 19:23:06 kmc, true, but iirc SECAM in France and NTSC in US and JP? 19:23:06 of course i don't actually know what NTSC and PAL are in the first place other than something ... something 19:23:09 though I could be wrong 19:23:13 SECAM is the french "different because we're french" standard 19:23:16 Hey, my cent -- http://cointrackers.com/coins/13649/1964-lincoln-penny/ -- is technically worth 20 cents! 19:23:20 kmc, well yes 19:23:21 looks like russia uses it 19:23:21 i didn't know russia uses it though! 19:23:29 also the coveted mongolian market 19:23:37 we once had a fancy japanese-brand VCR that did secam and other acronyms, I just assumed one of them would be "japanese tv" 19:23:38 "Another explanation for the Eastern European adoption of SECAM, led by the Soviet Union, is that the Russians had extremely long distribution lines between broadcasting stations and transmitters... Long co-axial cables or microwave links can cause amplitude and phase variations, which do not affect SECAM signals." 19:23:55 kmc: i'm thinking this map looks like the one from 1984. 19:24:02 "According to this explanation, East German political authorities were well aware of West German television's popularity and adopted SECAM rather than the PAL encoding used in West Germany." 19:24:11 Bike: haha 19:24:16 In most cases the same game can work in NES, Famicom, and some other clones. 19:24:19 oh man french guiana 19:24:27 all by its lonesome there, can't pick up any brazilian TV 19:24:33 Microphone is only in RF Famicom, though; AV Famicom and NES lacks this features. 19:24:44 Western Sahara is the one island of NTSC in Africa 19:24:45 zzo38, RF? 19:24:50 Radio Frequency? 19:24:52 what? 19:24:59 kmc: that looks like no info 19:25:07 which makes sense considering western sahara's population 19:25:08 but it's greyed out because a) not a country, b) how many televisions are there anyway 19:25:23 Vorpal: Officially they just call it "Famicom" but I call it RF Famicom to distinguish from AV Famicom, since it is connected to the TV set by RF cables. 19:25:28 bangladesh what are you doing 19:25:32 zzo38, ah 19:25:38 that is bangladesh isn't it 19:25:44 zzo38, it had a mic? What was that used for in practice? 19:26:10 no that's myanmar 19:26:16 Vorpal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi_no_Ch%C5%8Dsenj%C5%8D used it 19:26:18 kmc: shit. 19:26:22 Vorpal: Hardly anything, although there are some games (even ones written this year!) that use it, usually optionally. 19:26:27 ugh i was confusing burma and thailand 19:26:41 i forget are we calling it myanmar or burma now 19:26:50 i don't remember either 19:26:51 this is of course an intensely political question 19:26:53 (Famicom Hangman optionally uses the microphone to mix up the random number generator some more) 19:27:01 "Myanmar (Burma)" 19:27:03 That Fucked Up Country i guess 19:27:06 heh 19:27:06 fun fact: myanmar and burma are spelled the same way in myanmarian 19:27:21 still can't believe they had a socialist government based on killing communists 19:27:46 that is confusing 19:27:46 olsner, really? 19:27:48 ("bike the soviet union did that too" "shut up") 19:28:26 the great thing about kinds of socialism is that there are so many to choose from 19:28:28 Vorpal: one name is from how it was pronounced ages ago, the other is how they actually say it nowadays, but their writing system hasn't changes from "ages ago" 19:28:40 olsner, ah 19:28:50 what about spoken? 19:28:54 olsner, which one is the modern pronunciation? 19:29:11 Vorpal: fun facts do not come in such detail 19:29:16 ah 19:29:20 (that would make them not fun) 19:29:42 olsner, you mean they would move on to being hilarious? 19:30:52 I suspect the actual contemporary pronounciation is not remotely similar to either name, and in fact they all speak indonesian or somesuch anyway 19:31:11 In Burma? Hmm... 19:31:38 isn't there a military junta there? 19:31:42 burma has a lot of languages 19:31:46 yes, though they've been liberalizing 19:32:29 burmese is the official language, though i don't know if that means it's actually popular (though i'd guess it is) 19:32:39 "Burmese is spoken by 32 million as a first language and as a second language by 10 million" k then. 19:33:04 Burmese is one of the 5 languages with more than 5 million speakers that have a "th" sound like in English "with" 19:33:25 zzo38: what is my name today? 19:33:35 Vorpal: fun fact #2: fun facts are usually at least partially wrong 19:33:49 olsner, is that a fact? 19:33:50 fun fact 0 = 1 19:34:04 olsner: that's what makes them fun 19:34:19 Taneb: th and dh sounds are evil. 19:34:26 "Note that Hong Kong and Macao, the two Chinese dependencies on the southern coast of China, are omitted on the map. Both city-states use the NTSC/NTSC J system." 19:34:29 one country two systems 19:34:47 PAL with chinese characteristics 19:34:56 yes 19:34:58 I know someone who's lived in England all his life and has English as his first language and can't tell the difference between f and th 19:34:59 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1) 19:35:10 kmc, NTSC J? 19:35:12 The only controls used by the current version of Famicom Hangman are the letter keys and the space-bar. 19:35:14 hrrm 19:35:14 Other than that he's quite a good serious actor 19:35:27 "Only Japan's variant "NTSC-J" is slightly different: in Japan, black level and blanking level of the signal are identical (at 0 IRE), as they are in PAL, while in American NTSC, black level is slightly higher (7.5 IRE) than blanking level. Since the difference is quite small, a slight turn of the brightness knob is all that is required to correctly show the "other" variant of NTSC on any set as it is supposed to be; most watchers mig 19:35:40 Taneb, really? 19:35:46 Taneb, that doesn't make any sense 19:35:53 they are rather different sounds 19:35:56 hm 19:35:57 by the way as long as we're talking about burma 19:35:57 so technically NTSC and PAL are both color standards over a B&W standard which can vary 19:35:59 He associates them 19:36:05 however NTSC is always used with "System M" 19:36:06 i'd like to mention that the place is so fucked that wikipedia has this article 19:36:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceasefires_in_Burma 19:36:09 I think it's a psychological thing 19:36:11 Taneb, i have a friend like that except he's scots-algerian 19:36:14 Taneb, and I say that, not having the th sound in my native language 19:36:19 Taneb, albanian, arabic, danish, english, german, hebrew, portuguese, spanish, swahili, turkmen 19:36:21 thanks wikipedia 19:36:27 so he kind of has an excuse 19:36:31 Bike: also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Burma since we were on that topic earlier 19:36:36 not that that makes it any less hilarious 19:36:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL#PAL_broadcast_systems 19:36:53 Phantom_Hoover: I have a friend who's scots-algerian too. have we the same friend? 19:36:54 (with an article as big as some countries) 19:37:01 You and me, PAL. 19:37:06 Taneb, the sound I do have an issue with is the "ch" sound. Like in chair and chest. Sometimes it seems to come in slightly different variants. Really hard to hear the difference there for me 19:37:15 boily, i suspect there may be an age difference between them 19:37:28 Phantom_Hoover: maybe. 19:37:42 Vorpal, I think it's quite close to "dsh" or "tsh"? 19:37:49 good thing we took digital TV as an opportunity to finally standardize world wide 19:37:50 But I also think th and f are quite close 19:37:52 oh wait 19:38:19 Taneb, Yeah, can't really hear the difference between those variants unless the person saying it over-exaggerates. 19:38:20 Vorpal, is it an aspiration thing? 19:38:21 nooodl: Hebrew doesn't have the English "th" sound. 19:38:25 hm... that got me thinking about standards... and I suppose IP is a standard that's been pretty universally adopted? 19:38:26 Or did I mix it up? 19:38:36 also there's the j sound which is basically voiced ch 19:38:38 oh oops 19:38:40 Phantom_Hoover, Maybe. We don't really make that difference in Sweden, whatever it is 19:38:45 HebrewIraqiאדוני [ʔaðoˈnaj] (help·info)'my lord'Commonly pronounced [d]. See Modern Hebrew phonology 19:39:01 Phantom_Hoover, I think it is the d/t thing Taneb is talking about 19:39:02 so it's probably only [] if you're some kind of -pronouncing asshole 19:39:21 Bike: well it's adopted world wide, but lots of other standards coexist 19:39:26 nooodl, I'm referring to [θ] 19:39:28 either independently or by tunneling one over the other 19:39:50 HebrewIIraqi 19:39:52 Phantom_Hoover, also some voiced phonemes are kind of hard to pronounce for me, again we lack them in Swedish 19:40:09 Taneb: isn't the -th in with a different sound? 19:40:16 Vorpal, er 19:40:26 that's pronounced /wɪð/... 19:40:26 err, not voiced, wrong word 19:40:26 voiced rather than voiceless, I think 19:40:32 trying to find the right word 19:40:50 (err, "with" is) 19:40:51 we need OSI Model 2.0 which defines layers 8-14 which all run on top of HTTP 19:41:21 Phantom_Hoover, the phonemes that when you pronounce them feels like your tongue is "buzzing", what are they called... 19:41:23 kmc: layers 5 and 6 are not even used. let's fill them before adding new layers. 19:41:42 Phantom_Hoover, well, when you over-pronounce it 19:41:45 kmc: xen over internet protocol 19:41:50 Vorpal, uh 19:41:52 boily: hmm, sounds like some kind of periodic table of models 19:41:57 Just looked it up, and with could be either th or th 19:42:01 Vorpal, that's voiced 19:42:02 like... z? 19:42:05 I mean the one in "thin" 19:42:12 Not the one in "this" 19:42:13 z vs s is the best example of voicedness imo 19:42:19 just hold your adam's apple 19:42:21 Phantom_Hoover, sure 19:42:31 Phantom_Hoover, you have a lot more of then than Swedish iirc 19:42:44 Voicing doesn't have anything to do with the tongue, though. 19:43:06 wait, isn't v pronounced as f in swedish 19:43:18 you mean the letters? No 19:43:20 they are separate 19:43:24 Phantom_Hoover: no, that's norwegian 19:43:41 Or something German. 19:43:47 Neitherwedish Norwegian. 19:44:21 Phantom_Hoover, I think they share a common history though, after all in names "av" is sometimes written as "af" (that is like von in this case) 19:44:30 [ʁ] is the bestest phoneme of them all. 19:44:42 boily, which one is that? 19:45:02 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_uvular_fricative 19:45:09 swedish v is like english v, I think ... but swedes tend to mix up w and v sounds in english, because the w sound is not common 19:45:29 boily, oh the r sound 19:45:38 there is that too yes 19:45:43 Bike: Syscalls As A Service 19:46:13 boily, well okay, r as in Skånska I think? 19:46:21 * Vorpal checks 19:46:37 ah, "Southern dialects", yes 19:46:41 yeah, sounds about right 19:47:02 olsner, so a rolling r basically 19:47:36 it's not the rolling r, sadly. 19:47:39 olsner, I like the sj-sound too 19:47:40 We don't have that at all. :/ (In fact, Finnish is reasonably modest when it comes to phonology.) 19:47:49 the following example is funny, it says yangir, but it's the g that has the r sound 19:47:58 hah 19:48:32 boily, /ɧ/ 19:48:48 Vorpal: /ɥ/ 19:48:56 boily, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative 19:49:11 Vorpal: that one is nasty. 19:49:18 What's "funny" (FSVO) about Finnish phonology is that for the most part, our graphemes map to the identical-looking IPA symbols. (Not quite all of them, but still.) 19:49:23 boily, how so? I can pronounce it easily! 19:49:55 I think I can, but I don't know any Swedish people to check if I'm doing it correctly. 19:50:17 "Though the acoustic properties of its [ɧ] allophones are fairly similar, the realizations can vary considerably according to geography, social status, age, gender as well as social context [...]" 19:50:21 boily, I have a German relative who lived in Sweden since the 50s, and still has problems pronouncing it 19:50:38 well, since the late 50s 19:50:52 ... makes it sound a bit like swedes communicate only through ɧs 19:51:17 olsner, well... Sju sjösjuka sjömän... 19:51:54 you could just learn finland swedish instead and use ʃ 19:52:01 hah 19:52:04 true 19:52:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:52:13 I think the hardest Québec French sound isn't even a consonant. we extensively use /ɑ/. 19:52:49 hmm? that's just an a 19:52:56 TIL: Quebecois speak exclusively in vowels. 19:53:43 /ɑ/ is also the Finnish "a". 19:54:06 English lacks the Swedish u too 19:54:07 /ɑ/ has disappeared from France French, mainly. 19:54:23 what is /ɑ/ 19:54:37 "But... it's just an a!" 19:54:50 Vorpal: re "rolling r", I think you confused the names of the r's 19:54:57 olsner, hm okay 19:55:11 olsner, Which one is the skorrande r? 19:55:37 which is what I was thinking of 19:55:45 uvular or guttural, afaict 19:55:46 English lacks ʉː right? 19:56:17 yes, it has nothing to that effect. 19:56:39 hm right 19:58:10 -!- edwardk has joined. 19:58:54 Possibly they should give each language some unique, non-shared phoneme, so that everyone'd have something to be proud of. 19:59:18 you'd run out 19:59:21 fizzie, well Swedish has a couple of unique ones, with the ɧ 19:59:25 well one I guess 19:59:35 Phantom_Hoover: You can just add more subdivisions. 19:59:41 there's this one fairly tame phoneme which isn't used by any languages 20:00:25 Phantom_Hoover, oh? 20:00:28 which one is that 20:00:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:02:12 voiced labiodental plosive, i think 20:03:04 Also fun in Swedish, anden and anden is pronounced differently depending on if it means "the duck" or "the spirit". Wikipedia lists the former as "[ˈa᷇ndɛ̀n] or [ˈan˥˧dɛn˩]" and the latter as "[ˈa᷆ndɛ̂n] or [ˈan˧˩dɛn˥˩]" 20:03:18 Vorpal 20:03:24 there are so many words like that in english 20:03:25 tear 20:03:27 reading 20:03:34 Half-voiced quidental-applasal darentive 20:03:52 Phantom_Hoover, sure but is it the same type of difference 20:04:00 hm 20:04:23 shachaf: Voiceless quidditch broomxirant. 20:04:43 nice 20:04:47 ghoti 20:04:53 ghoti-- 20:05:01 I think the Famicom is possible to have keyboard and mouse connected at the same time, but I don't think any existing software uses it! 20:05:04 @karma ghoti 20:05:04 ghoti has a karma of -1 20:05:12 lead 20:05:15 live 20:05:23 http://www-personal.umich.edu/~cellis/heteronym.html 20:05:58 there are a bunch of noun/verb stress differences there 20:06:08 You can tell our phonological poverty from the fact that most of the IPA symbols of Finnish phonemes are just ASCII. (Okay, so the mid-vowels technically have extra diacritics and there's a few exceptions, but still.) 20:06:29 Phantom_Hoover, hm 20:06:37 You make up for your phonology with your conjugation, fizzie 20:06:47 having any of your phonemes' IPA symbols in ascii is the sign of failure 20:06:52 hah 20:07:38 you know what more programming languages need? a "revert all state apart from the instruction pointer and call stack" command 20:07:44 imperative languages, that is 20:07:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:08:04 Finnish has a lot of information-bearing phoneme lengths (tuli 'fire' vs. tuuli 'wind' vs. tulli 'customs/toll'), that I think is often mentioned as a curiosity. 20:08:22 this would seem to be very useful for cleanup after an error 20:08:45 you could do all the destructive updates you like but always be able to roll back 20:08:50 ais523, hm, is there any imperative language that has that? 20:08:55 hmm… that's more or less the exact opposite of a continuation 20:08:57 Vorpal: not that I know of 20:09:03 ais523: you need some scope for that 20:09:07 fizzie: English has these too. Compare: "elliott" and "eliot". 20:09:09 elliott: yes, you do 20:09:10 ais523, it is kind of trucky if there is IO involved as well 20:09:22 I suggest just using a reversible language? 20:09:26 Vorpal: that doesn't have to be reversed 20:09:33 oh? 20:09:37 IO, I mean 20:09:40 this would be for algorithms anyway 20:09:41 ah 20:09:46 perhaps to respond to IO failures 20:09:48 ais523, ah, so transactional memory then 20:09:59 just roll back the current transaction 20:10:02 yeah, transactional memory 20:10:03 except nestable 20:10:07 ah 20:11:23 I've wanted it to be available repeatedly over the last week 20:11:31 ais523, what for? 20:11:58 can't remember now 20:12:00 ais523, what about forking each time and then killing processes up till the point you want to revert to 20:12:06 other people's programs, I think 20:12:09 Since linux uses copy on write this should work 20:12:10 Vorpal: that's how it's implemented in INTERCAL 20:12:16 ais523, really? Niiice 20:12:35 Where "each time" presumably means "each time you do anything at all"? 20:12:37 I wouldn't want to run intercal on cygwin then 20:12:44 fizzie: each time you enter a stack 20:12:48 fizzie, well, depend on the granularity you wan't rollback on 20:12:48 Vorpal: interpreter threads, not OS threads 20:12:56 you could do it with OS threads too but I don't want to try 20:12:58 ais523, I mean OS ones 20:13:35 seems a bit wasteful of pid namespace 20:13:48 is it 32-bit on linux? 20:13:59 it used to be 16-bit, and many programs still assume that so it's the default 20:14:04 but the kernel supports 32-bit too 20:14:05 ah 20:14:14 probably as an option 20:14:43 Seems a bit wasteful of things in general. (Sure, sure, copy-on-write, but there's still quite a lot of things in a process.) 20:15:08 Has anyone in here ever heard of someone who goes by the pseudonym "simpson"? 20:15:28 fizzie: Linux lets you choose how much to copy when you create a process 20:15:33 ais523: It's not just the programs; seeing six-digits-or-more numbers in ps is confusing for a person, too. 20:15:39 I know someone called Simpson who gets called "simpy" 20:15:42 pid_t on my system is a signed 32-bit value. 20:15:47 ... why is it signed 20:15:59 pikhq: for signalling process groups 20:16:00 pikhq: But what's your /proc/sys/kernel/pid_max? 20:16:00 pikhq: Because kill can take a negative argument? 20:16:00 Taneb: is this by any chance the simpson who is active at #python too? 20:16:06 AnotherTest, doubtful 20:16:19 (09:12:34 PM) simpson: AnotherTest: No, it's funny because I hack esoteric languages all the time and write compilers for fun. :3 20:16:20 (Mine is 2^15 exactly.) 20:16:30 fizzie: Blah, it is 2^15. 20:16:49 Taneb: this may be a lost estoterican 20:17:03 -!- lahwran has quit (Changing host). 20:17:03 -!- lahwran has joined. 20:17:18 `seen simpson 20:17:22 not lately; try `seen simpson ever 20:17:31 `seen simpson ever 20:17:31 `seen simpson ever 20:17:46 not that I remember 20:17:46 not that I remember 20:17:55 aha, not that HE remembers 20:17:58 `seen lament 20:18:03 not lately; try `seen lament ever 20:18:08 `seen lament ever 20:18:14 2012-07-18 18:17:18: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 20:18:28 Well, that's quite describing 20:18:33 ais523: PID_MAX_LIMIT in my random grep-kernel (3.something, anyway; haven't been building kernels lately) is a value that's not 2^31-1; in fact, it's a rather complicated value. 20:18:38 lament laments, who'd've thought 20:18:42 AnotherTest: he is in #haskell. 20:18:49 lament is in #haskell? 20:18:51 elliott: simspon? 20:18:54 Oh, simpson. 20:18:54 It's (CONFIG_BASE_SMALL ? PAGE_SIZE * 8 : (sizeof(long) > 4 ? 4 * 1024 * 1024 : PID_MAX_DEFAULT)), where PID_MAX_DEFAULT is (CONFIG_BASE_SMALL ? 0x1000 : 0x8000). 20:18:58 `seen ais523 20:19:00 no, not simspon. 20:19:02 2013-03-18 20:18:58: `seen ais523 20:19:08 thought so 20:19:11 `seen ais523_ 20:19:14 Also, there's a comment saying "A maximum of 4 million PIDs should be enough for a while." on top. 20:19:15 2013-02-17 15:53:28: it's nice to have an OS such that your computer can overheat, crash, and restart before you ping out from IRC 20:19:19 `seen ais523__ 20:19:23 not lately; try `seen ais523__ ever 20:19:29 `seen ais523__ ever 20:19:33 `seen ais521 20:19:35 2011-03-31 15:54:19: indeed, it is 20:19:36 not lately; try `seen ais521 ever 20:19:38 `seen slbkbs ever 20:19:39 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:19:47 `seen ais512 ever 20:19:51 So you can only raise /proc/sys/kernel/pid_max to 4194304. 20:19:51 oops 20:19:53 not that I remember 20:20:00 `seen ais521 ever 20:20:01 not that I remember 20:20:03 2012-12-17 20:15:57: Oops 20:20:13 hmm 20:20:26 so was that me or someone else 20:20:30 fizzie, that is such a random number 20:20:33 that was me, actually 20:20:48 Vorpal: It "should be enough for a while", though. 20:21:15 fizzie, true, mine is at 32768. Which is the default 16-bit thingy again I presume 20:21:26 haven't had an issue so far 20:21:55 -!- AnotherTest has left. 20:22:15 Vorpal: There's a pidmap[] array, the size of which is related to pid_max, which might explain why it's not completely unlimited. 20:23:01 why is there a /proc/sys/kernel/hostname, and what is it doing in that directory? 20:23:09 !c printf("%x", 4194304); 20:23:14 400000 20:23:18 fizzie: not that random 20:23:23 boily: the kernel maintains its own idea of the hostname 20:23:28 which is used at least by the uname system call 20:23:29 There's also some other default that relates pid_max to the number of processors, with PIDS_PER_CPU_DEFAULT being 1024 -- to match "original pid max of 32k for 32 cpus" -- and PIDS_PER_CPU_MIN of 8, presumably for sanity reasons. 20:23:47 presumably that allows you to get at it, and maybe change it, without having to use a separate program like uname(1) 20:23:59 ais523: good argument. 20:24:17 also I don't think uname can set the hostname, so you'd need /another/ separate program to set it 20:25:01 which probably exists in section 8 somewhere but I don't know what it's called offhand 20:25:22 16:36:34: coppro: hungarian ő is basically like german ö but a bit longer 20:25:25 16:36:47: whereas hungarian ö is like german ö but a bit shorter 20:25:33 um german has length distinction in vowels too 20:25:33 pid_max is adjusted to be min(PID_MAX_LIMIT, max(pid_max, PIDS_PER_CPU_DEFAULT * num_possible_cpus())) right before the pid-bitmap is allocated. 20:25:53 oerjan: well yes 20:26:57 Linux actually supports running different processes with different ideas of what the hostname is 20:27:04 clone(CLONE_NEWUTS) 20:27:23 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 20:27:27 There's all kinds of separatable namespaces these days, what with all the container-brouhaha. 20:27:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:27:44 kmc: I used that in Web of Lies, then forgot about it 20:27:56 and now I remembered again 20:28:11 And of course you can have multiple PID namespaces. 20:28:13 ais523, I think hostname sets it? 20:28:16 the command that is 20:28:27 that would make sense 20:28:53 ais523, though my hostname is dragon according to the file, and hostname, but hostname -f lists dragon.lan 20:29:10 the new hotness is that unprivileged users can now use these various namespaces 20:29:18 ais523, and hostname -A hangs?? 20:29:19 kmc: ooh, really 20:29:23 which is currently a great source of privilege escalation holes 20:29:23 how long before weboflies doesn't have to be root? 20:29:27 i don't know 20:29:27 oh no, it is just slow 20:29:33 "The FQDN is the name getaddrinfo(3) returns for the host name returned by gethostname(2)"; that's where hostname -f comes from. 20:29:34 and lists dragon.lan 20:29:40 have only been following this via spender's rants on twitter 20:30:04 it feels a bit weird for a program to be able to plausibly claim to be init without even being root 20:30:24 I love how even the actor is half-convinced, even though he knows the truth 20:30:39 um german has length distinction in vowels too <-- like Swedish you mean? 20:30:41 right 20:30:47 and norwegian. 20:30:50 ah 20:30:51 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:30:52 Japanese too. 20:30:59 "I once convinced a woman that I was Kevin Costner, and it worked because *I* believed it!" 20:31:03 ais523: how so? sandboxing ought to be safe and freely available for non-privileged users 20:31:25 olsner: it can feel weird without being a bad idea 20:31:38 which is currently a great source of privilege escalation holes <-- heh really? 20:31:48 Vorpal: oh. in context, that should be like hungarian actually. 20:31:59 oerjan, oh okay 20:32:24 I love how even the actor is half-convinced, even though he knows the truth <-- is there a context to this? 20:32:35 kmc, that reminds me, I need to watch Waterworld 20:32:36 Vorpal, Space Cadets 20:32:41 is there a context to anything sgeo says 20:33:09 elliott, sometimes there's a context when he says "^list" 20:33:12 it feels a bit weird for a program to be able to plausibly claim to be init without even being root <-- pure user space qemu can easily do this. An LD_PRELOAD hack could claim it to another program as well 20:33:13 Sgeo: pop tarts 20:33:22 Vorpal: qemu's a VM, it doesn't count :) 20:33:27 ais523: And UML? 20:33:28 :) 20:33:32 LD_PRELOAD, I'll give you that (although it's not 100% reliable) 20:33:42 actually weboflies could claim to be init without actually being init 20:33:45 by rewriting PIDs 20:33:48 ais523, whatever valgrind does would work too 20:33:52 but that doesn't really fit in with its philosophy 20:33:56 which is not exactly LD_PRELOAD only iirc 20:33:59 though that is involved 20:34:20 Valgrind doesn't even touch LD_PRELOAD. 20:34:23 can LD_PRELOAD be used to insert a new and improved vsyscall page/dso/whatchamacallit? 20:34:25 oh really? 20:34:26 okay 20:34:37 olsner, hrrm... probably not 20:34:44 that is kind of special isn't it? 20:35:01 It compiles the binary to a specialized IR, runs transformations on the resulting IR, and then JITs. 20:35:02 ais523, how did you handle the vdso btw? I forgot 20:35:17 I didn't 20:35:23 ais523, oh? 20:35:25 note that I never claimed that web of lies actually /works/ 20:35:29 ah 20:35:33 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 20:35:51 ais523, worked any further on it since it was revealed? 20:36:12 with a modified ELF interpreter you could just link your own vDSO substitut 20:36:15 fizzie, speaking of JITs. Jitfunge? What happened to it 20:36:30 Vorpal: since it was /revealed/? yes; last several months? no 20:36:31 kmc, it is inserted into static binaries too 20:36:32 so hm 20:36:35 ais523, ah 20:36:38 I was working on it as it was revealed 20:36:42 true 20:36:51 Vorpal: but very few static binaries are going to parse the vDSO and use things from it, afaik 20:36:56 maybe static glibc does, i dunno 20:37:01 it's a different story on i386 20:37:09 static glibc does weird stuff 20:37:18 where the address of one of the vDSO entry points (for system calls) is passed directly in an ELF auxv 20:37:35 on amd64 only the start of the vDSO ELF image is passed, for use by the dynamic loader 20:37:46 ah 20:37:56 there is an example program somewhere in the Linux source tree for parsing that ELF and using functions from a static binary 20:38:01 that is interesting 20:38:04 it's not that hard, but i don't know if anyone does it 20:38:15 kmc, well ld.so itself probably does 20:38:20 maybe 20:38:23 ld.so is a static binary after all 20:38:26 does ld.so need to make fast gettimeofday calls 20:38:37 kmc, I meant on i386 20:38:53 to make system calls in general? it wouldn't need to, it could just use that entry point that's passed 20:38:59 I guess static glibc uses the gettimeofday call 20:39:21 basically they decided it's OK to make it somewhat difficult for static binaries to use fast gettimeofday etc, but not OK to make it difficult for them to make syscalls on i386 20:39:30 ah 20:39:51 Breaking kernel ABI is generally considered a bad thing. 20:40:00 true 20:40:26 You can still run Linux 1.0 binaries on a modern system. 20:40:44 yeah Linux is fanatical about that 20:40:46 to their detriment 20:41:09 on average it's a good thing 20:41:11 there's a ton of compatibility cruft in the kernel and it's a perpetual source of bugs and security holes 20:41:21 though it would be nice to do a prune 20:41:28 Userspace has a bit worse compatibility cruft. 20:41:35 Seriously, 32-bit off_t should DIE in a FIRE. 20:41:36 ^ 20:41:36 coppro: i don't know, there is the Windows alternative where the kernel ABI is kept clean and modern, and programs are supposed to dynamically link libc etc 20:41:50 kmc: dynamically linking libc is not a kernel thing 20:42:29 coppro: the Windows kernel team is also responsible for the libc 20:42:41 because the libc is the only documented/approved way to communicate with the kernel 20:42:51 and in general Windows considers it part of the kernel 20:42:52 yeah, but it isn't on Windows 20:42:53 err 20:42:55 on Linux 20:43:01 indeed 20:43:10 (and it shouldn't be because fuck glibc ;) ) 20:43:11 Seriously, 32-bit off_t should DIE in a FIRE. <-- That is gone on 64-bit systems afaik? 20:43:13 i'm saying they could change that 20:43:21 well apart from multi arch obviously 20:43:22 kmc: I guess moving the ABI outside the real kernel is nice, but they still have an ABI in those dlls they can't change 20:43:22 yeah, exactly, fuck glibc, Linux team can make their own libc 20:43:27 olsner: yeah 20:43:32 there's no free lunch if you want binary compat 20:43:35 ooh what's wrong with glibc 20:43:39 you could have multiple versions of that libc though 20:43:42 Bike: the devs are morons 20:43:44 http://blog.sc5.fi/2013/03/sc5-pays-salaries-in-bitcoin/ 20:43:52 drepper is not a moron but definitely an asshole 20:44:03 drepper's the only one i know of and he seems smart if a jerk yes 20:44:10 though he doesn't work on it any more, does he? 20:44:11 he's rather bright, I enjoyed a lot of his whitepapers (published by Red Hat) regarding linkers, futex, etc 20:44:12 drepper doesnt work on glibc any more does he 20:44:15 oh really 20:44:20 iirc red hat fired him 20:44:21 or sth 20:44:30 Drepper totally left glibc. 20:44:37 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:44:38 anyway i want specifics 20:44:45 It's been having a major series of compliance bugfixes of late. 20:44:46 "the devs are morons" could have so many exciting consequences 20:46:05 He's quite bright, but not a good choice of maintainer. 20:46:13 moving emulation and support of old APIs out of the kernel does have the advantage of reducing the amount of code running at elevated privileges though 20:46:26 yeah, but Linux has never really been interested in that 20:46:28 or in security in general 20:46:34 hm true 20:46:36 the upstream kernel devs are actively hostile to security 20:46:42 really? 20:46:47 that makes little sense 20:46:59 they intentionally obfuscate regarding which commits are security-relevant 20:47:20 interestin 20:47:23 like if Linus fixes a trivially exploited root hole, the commit message is usually 4 paragraphs of irrelevant blather 20:47:26 eg http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=799c10559d60f159ab2232203f222f18fa3c4a5f 20:47:28 so how's SELinux or w/e work? 20:47:32 poorly 20:47:38 nice 20:47:47 i'm talking about their attitude toward bugfixes, not grand frameworks 20:47:51 i don't know as much about the latter 20:47:56 is that based on the idea that the fixes will expose security holes that linux has had or something? 20:48:02 beats me 20:48:10 that commit doesn't mention security at all other than the site of the reporter. lol. 20:48:15 that's correct 20:48:18 or just that they don't care about figuring out whether their bugfix fixed something exploitable? 20:48:20 security shouldn't be mentioned until a fixed release is pushed 20:48:50 given the amount of time it takes for changes to filter from mainline to distros, it would be irresponsible to say "this fixes a root exploit" in commit logs 20:49:02 oh 20:49:10 Security fixes in particular filter from mainline to distros in the course of hours. 20:49:17 kmc, heh 20:49:20 coppro: so instead let's make the kernel team of each distro reverse-engineer the intent of upstream? 20:49:29 kmc, only the last paragraph mentions security at all 20:49:40 i don't think there is a *private* channel for these things, either 20:49:41 and even then not directly 20:49:46 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 20:49:46 they just dump fixes and you're supposed to figure out what's relevant 20:50:00 some fixes do get tagged with CVE numbers, but not reliably 20:50:04 ksplice wasn't invited to the secret privtae cahnnel 20:50:08 insufficiently cool 20:51:40 yeah maybe :( 20:52:06 what's that mysterious secret privtae cahnnel? 20:53:26 can't tell you it's secret 20:53:51 The guy running SC5 is technically an acquaintance (or at least once removed) from the university. And the bitcoin thing was mentioned by the news media. 20:53:59 oracle could do lots of evil if they got told about security issues 20:55:14 ah yes evil oracle 20:55:42 fizzie: oh right, one of the most confusing/surprising things I've seen: two people from different schools in a chemistry competition started talking 20:55:47 no matter what Oracle does, the Internet hates them for it 20:55:58 and never having met before, nonetheless deduced that they had a friend of a friend in common 20:56:04 i.e. four degrees of separation 20:56:05 when Red Hat obfuscates their kernel patches to make it harder for Oracle to compete, it's somehow Oracle's fault 20:56:19 the surprise is not in the degree of separation, but in the fact that they managed to work it out 20:57:43 ais523: did they work it out independently? that would be more impressive 20:58:11 esoteric kernel patches 20:58:21 elliott: via communicating with each other 20:58:30 I'm also not sure what possessed them to start working it out 20:59:05 sometimes i think i'm missing out on "hacker culture" when y'all talk about oracle being evil or whatever but then i notice it seems kind of terrible 20:59:40 Bike: there are multiple such cultures, some of which are terrible 21:00:01 there's reasonable evidence for oracle being dubious, at least, so it depends on how much you care 21:00:13 there's actually a whole forum on tdwtf for oracle-bashing 21:00:17 yeah I don't claim Oracle is not evil 21:00:24 although it was added mostly as a joke 21:00:35 I think Google / Apple / Microsoft / etc. are also pretty evil 21:00:38 big companies tend to be evil 21:00:51 is kmc evil 21:01:07 Microsoft is at least reasonably consistent 21:01:09 and yes "hacker culture" is a cesspool 21:01:27 ais523, Apple is fairly consistent too, no? 21:01:29 kmc: what culture are you talking about, specifically? some examples would help 21:01:35 ais523, patents patents patents 21:01:38 eh I rant about it enough as is 21:01:40 Vorpal: that's more recent 21:01:46 hm true 21:04:00 http://gkoberger.github.com/stacksort/ 21:04:10 Sgeo: already seen it from reddit 21:04:20 incidentally, I was planning to implement an esolang like that 21:04:29 except instead of doing sorting, you'd give it a number as the prorgam 21:04:30 "If you like running arbitrary code in your browser," DO I 21:04:31 *program 21:04:47 and it'd take the majority opinion of submissions to the matching anarchy golf program 21:04:52 err, problem 21:04:56 holy damn, it actually works 21:05:09 after 30 tries 21:05:18 also, you run arbitrary third-party code in your browser every time you view an advert that isn't just a static image or text 21:05:33 yes, that's why i didn't really care (though i have those blocked usually) 21:05:57 ais523, I don't allow that. NoScript. 21:06:24 This thing is probably safer than ads though 21:06:25 Vorpal: indeed, many people don't allow that, but most people do 21:06:56 i live dangerously 21:13:32 whereas there is one former-regular who was south african 21:13:58 there has been at least one new zealander too 21:14:22 hackego 21:14:25 oerjan: ah, OK 21:14:52 oerjan: hmm, who? 21:16:56 hm who was it again 21:18:28 `pastelogs monkey.*joined 21:18:41 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5435 21:20:25 yep, GreaseMonkey 21:20:37 `seen GreaseMonkey ever 21:20:44 2012-01-12 23:09:25: multitasking 21:22:13 oh, him. 21:26:15 was there ever a her here? 21:26:45 "a her"? 21:26:49 (I won't even ask for itses. every bot has its own bot here.) 21:27:57 fungot: Do you have your own bot? 21:27:58 fizzie: so there is something called " 3m". this has nothing to to but i don't 21:28:02 there is a her™ in the channel right now :P 21:28:15 elliott: you? 21:28:20 Yes. 21:28:42 (its not me) 21:29:58 i miss vixey :( 21:30:41 are we talking about lambdabot 21:35:11 nickserv says that 3m isn't taken, so presumably we can use it as the name for fungot's bot 21:35:12 ais523: what those numbers mean? riastradh ( i assume you're awake). and of course the function call, so you're probably right 21:35:34 elliott: well alise uses female pronouns 21:36:07 fungot: 3m isn't a number, it was a string 21:36:07 elliott: but if stalin generates such labels, a more fnord friend of mine worked for a while while fully aware of the efficiency argument is small. if the child process 21:36:20 fungot: i guess maybe you meant 3 million by it?? 21:36:20 elliott: not really related, but it's not really 21:36:26 haha 21:36:29 stalin is such a great name fora compiler 21:36:37 there is a her™ in the channel right now :P <-- who? 21:36:46 Vorpal: Fiora 21:36:50 oh okay 21:36:52 fungot: q 21:36:53 elliott: we all hate windows, and all 21:36:57 I know there has been a few before 21:37:01 Lymia came back also 21:37:07 fungot has prescient accuracy 21:37:08 elliott: personally i like writing programs in single expressions. :d) tai jotenki, mut ei ainakaa 21:37:18 :d), what the fuck is that 21:37:22 fungot's speaking in tongues again... 21:37:23 boily: yeah, that's a trivial prob.,. neither do activists. they've all got more pressing concerns. the gc needs to be a bunch of 21:37:24 and of course most of the lurkers are of schrodinger's gender 21:37:43 you lock the gender in a box to try to show how absurd copenhagen is? 21:37:44 speaking of single expression, I might still have that irc bot in a single nested lambda expression in python you wrote around somewhere elliott 21:37:49 * boily lightly shakes fungot in a circular motion 21:37:50 boily: now i'm telling miss piggy about money market funds!) 21:37:57 elliott, maybe 21:38:38 Bike: its a smiley :d) 21:39:13 it's the "trying to tell whether your nose is still there by feeling it with your tongue" smiley 21:39:27 fuck you i can't do it :( 21:39:50 i can 21:39:53 im doing it now 21:39:54 and smiling 21:39:59 ais523: Given that "3m" starts with a number, I'd be kind of surprised if it were taken. 21:40:00 more of a grimace really 21:40:02 damn you :( 21:40:11 (Cf. ":leguin.freenode.net 432 * 3m :Erroneous Nickname") 21:40:11 Bike: ? 21:40:16 fizzie: makes sense 21:40:33 ais523: he was addressing me 21:40:34 that's a really strong statement for something so minor 21:40:42 elliott: yes, that's why I'm confused rather than angry 21:40:43 omg i dont care that Bike said damn you to me 21:41:08 * Fiora was pinged 21:41:08 it's the "trying to tell whether your nose is still there by feeling it with your tongue" smiley 21:41:09 fuck you i can't do it :( 21:41:11 can anyone? 21:41:14 oh we talked about this before and i forgot 21:41:15 that seems impossible 21:41:21 Fiora: we were discussing diversity in channel regulars 21:41:24 Ooh, vestigial #douglasdams Finnish bits again. 21:41:25 Vorpal: there was someone on Ellen a few days ago who did it 21:41:29 elliott: and it's all bike's fault too. what a horrid person he is 21:41:34 Bike, "Ellen"? 21:41:36 yes 21:41:40 what is that 21:41:45 probably a chat show 21:41:48 apart from a name 21:41:54 Vorpal: a tv show (yes, a chat show) hosted by Ellen deGeneres 21:41:54 i can confirm that Bike is horrid 21:41:57 ah 21:41:59 Bicycle is not horrid, on the other hand 21:42:02 they're like interview shows except with less content in the questions 21:42:05 imo Bicycle is a better name 21:42:09 what about Bicyclidine 21:42:16 can anyone? 21:42:20 psure einstein could 21:42:23 neurodiversity in channel regulars 21:42:36 Bike: too long 21:42:37 i'm sure there are plenty of autists 21:42:39 imo Bicycle 21:42:52 there's probably at least one or two neurotypical people here? 21:42:54 <.< 21:42:56 Phantom_Hoover, OKAY 21:43:02 sometimes i wonder why "psychodiversity" isn't a thing but it turns out nobody even cares about neurodiversity so 21:43:03 Bike: (btw usernames gotta start witha lowercase letter but "we'll let it slide") 21:43:23 Fiora: who 21:43:24 is a psychodiver like a psychonaut 21:43:29 they're like interview shows except with less content in the questions <-- so no hard hitting journalistic questions? 21:43:32 ummmm I don't know 21:43:33 sounds boring to me 21:43:34 Vorpal: Guinness says the current record-holder for "longest tongue" reaches 9.75 cm (3.8 in) from top lip to tip. 21:43:44 fizzie, oh my god 21:43:49 Vorpal: I'm not entirely sure why they're popular 21:43:50 http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/media/1698229/Chanel%20Tapper%20main.jpg looks like it'd have no problems reaching the nose. 21:43:50 fizzie, is that in a human? 21:44:10 yeah, Ellen is kinda boring, I just happened to see it on TV.< 1363644030 973217 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer 22:00:33 fungot: Do you have anything to say for yourself? 22:00:34 fizzie: i am an idiot! i am overwhelmed by the amount of 22:00:46 Vorpal: Well, it seems quite contrite, at least. 22:00:48 -!- Frooxius has joined. 22:00:58 true 22:01:03 fungot: It's all right, just don't let it happen again. 22:01:04 fizzie: uh, that's not what i meant 22:01:13 fungot: What did you mean, then? 22:01:13 fizzie: did that answer your question, and even i have that 22:01:25 I give up. 22:01:54 * boily hugs fungot 22:01:54 boily: ( i'm not really sure what you're doing? code? 22:02:11 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:05:36 -!- edwardk has joined. 22:16:05 -!- aloril has joined. 22:19:32 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:23:49 ah, cosmetics ingredients, you'll always surprise me. «Sodium Kokum Butterate». what the fungot is that. 22:23:50 boily: beautiful women carrying pitchers of water will come up with something 22:42:47 (But the comment about separate checkouts sounds true too.) 22:43:21 `ls 22:43:29 accesslog \ a.out \ bin \ brainfuck.fu \ canary \ Category:Self-modifying \ dbg.out \ dkVb20VL \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ karma \ lib \ link \ paste \ prefs \ prefs.bf \ quines \ quotes \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ rainbow \ sgfoobar \ share \ slist.ori 22:43:39 `learn comedogenic is something that causes comedy when applied to the skin, e.g. an accelerated cream pie in parabolic motion. 22:43:44 I knew that. 22:43:47 woohoo! :D 22:43:56 -!- Frooxius has joined. 22:44:03 I can now go eat. 'night all! 22:44:06 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 22:44:08 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:44:45 `? boily 22:44:51 boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence. 22:45:09 indeed; we are sure that Ottawa exists 22:45:10 `? canada 22:45:12 but not 100% sure it's in Canada 22:45:13 canada? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 22:45:16 I think boily is the man eating chicken 22:45:53 shachaf: we can't put it in wisdom until we know it exists 22:46:41 `run mv wisdom/ngevd . && grep -i exist wisdom/* && mv ngevd wisdom/ 22:46:51 wisdom/boily:boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence. \ wisdom/olsner:olsner seems to exist at least. 22:46:53 Phantom_Hoover: no, that's norwegian <-- DON'T BE SILLY 22:47:43 oerjan: what are you going to do about it? swat me? 22:47:56 I'm not sure Ottawa exists. 22:48:06 for a start, I'm not sure the plane ais523 was on actually flew to Ottawa and not some kind of fake Ottawa. 22:48:13 also, I'm not sure ais523 exists, so his testimony is unreliable. 22:48:40 elliott: well, either a fake ottawa is distinguishable from a real ottawa, or indistinguishable 22:48:50 let's just define Ottawa as whatever he flew to 22:48:56 if it's indistinguishable, then it's reasonably philosophically an ottawa 22:49:01 olsner: exactly 22:49:10 ais523: it's distinguishable by not being the real ottawa, by definition 22:49:32 otoh, there's no proof that the plane landed in canada 22:50:00 although I have enough of a grasp of geography, combined with looking out of the windows a lot, to suspect that it's at least approximately geographically in the area where Canada is rumoured to be 22:50:31 elliott: also, as for not being sure I exist: the alternative is that someone invented me, and that thought is horrifying 22:50:44 point 22:50:55 err, but if someone invented you, you would exist 22:52:37 olsner: hmm 22:52:47 in fact, with all this talking about whether canada exists or not, haven't we invented canada? 22:52:48 well doesn't the fact that I accidentally assumed I exist 22:52:51 mean that I'm not lying about it? 22:53:03 olsner: do we know enough about Canada to be able to invent it via mere description? 22:53:31 the salient facts about it are that it's rumoured to exist, there are esolangers who claim to be aware of it (even inside it), and that it's won Agora 22:54:27 hmm, how much do you need to know about something in order to invent it? do we have to know that we invented it? do we have to know its name even? 22:54:50 I guess you need to be able to come up with plausible replies to questions about it 22:54:55 "I don't know" stops being plausible after a while 22:55:02 i believe these concerns are adequately addressed in Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius 22:55:51 ais523: we could apply an ontological argument type thing 22:56:05 canada is the greatest thing, something is greater if it really exists as opposed to just being rumoured to exist... 22:56:19 or perhaps all we need to do is agree that it is more canadian for something to exist than for it not to exist 22:56:24 and obviously, canada is maximally canadian 22:56:59 elliott: this reminds me of the argument that god must exist due to being defined as having all positive properties, including existence 22:57:58 I liked Raymond Smullyan's arguments about that! 22:58:11 i somehow think that canada would become more canadian the less it exists 22:58:24 ais523: yes, that's the ontological argument... 22:58:40 elliott: wow, it actually has a /name/? 22:58:51 shachaf: I probably learned about it from Smullyan 22:58:52 ais523: of course, Gödel even made his own version 22:58:59 elliott: it strikes me as not particularly convincing 22:59:15 everyone made a version 22:59:21 it's a popular argument 22:59:31 Smullyan called it that. 22:59:34 It's in _5000 B.C._ 22:59:37 He had some fun variations. 22:59:39 ais523: "the argument does not, to a modern mind, seem very convincing, but it is easier to feel convinced that it must be fallacious than it is to find out precisely where the fallacy lies" -- Bertrand Russell -- Wikipedia 23:00:05 a bunch of famouse people after russell worked with it 23:00:19 elliott: the problem is that it's a circular argument 23:00:32 not really 23:00:35 in order for it even to matter that something has particular properties, it first has to exist 23:00:45 what do you mean by "matter"? 23:01:06 i define unicorns as horses with horns that exist 23:01:15 therefore, unicorns exist 23:02:00 elliott: if something doesn't exist, then the universe is the same regardless of what properties it would have if it existed 23:02:20 lmt: that doesn't really match the structure of the ontological argument at all 23:02:25 ais523: imo everything exists 23:02:42 in particular, you don't even assert that the definition of unicorns implies that unicorns necessarily exist 23:03:13 but it does 23:03:14 i smell curry's paradox 23:03:17 because it says "they exist" 23:03:20 right in the definition 23:03:29 kmc: which one is that? 23:03:37 ais523: "If this sentence is true then 1=0" 23:03:41 kmc: I don't think the ontological argument is like Curry's paradox, really 23:03:58 I'm not saying there aren't good arguments against it but I don't think these are it :P 23:03:58 Existence is not a property that some things have and some things don't. 23:04:00 shachaf: right 23:04:24 It isn't the case that there are unicorns, but none of them have the property of existence. 23:04:27 There are just no unicorns. 23:04:28 immanuel shachaf 23:04:31 curry's paradox is logically equivalent to epimenides' paradox, isn't it? 23:04:48 shachaf: I think it's more what you call "god" in the argument is equivalent to "idea_of_god" 23:04:58 shachaf: who are you kidding? ALL unicorns have the property of existence 23:04:59 and then the predicate of it existing means that "something which matches this idea exists". 23:05:31 Arc_Koen: that statement is one I think everyone agrees with 23:05:42 although, hmm 23:05:50 all unicorns have all properties? 23:06:21 ais523: Equivalent why? 23:06:39 Because P = P -> Q ---> P = !P || Q? 23:06:41 about the closest I could get to what I was looking for is "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_ungulates" 23:06:57 good list 23:07:02 ais523: I don't think everyone accepts that every element of the empty set has all properties 23:07:23 I was trying to find a list of fictional unicorns 23:07:24 like I think paraconsistent type stuff might avoid that? 23:07:45 paranormal logic 23:07:49 oh Everyone knows that dragons don't exist. But while this simplistic 23:07:49 formulation may satisfy the layman, it does not suffice for the scientific 23:07:49 mind. The School of Higher Neantical Nillity is in fact wholly unconcerned 23:07:49 with what ____does exist. Indeed, the banality of existence has been 23:07:49 so amply demonstrated, there is no need for us to discuss it any further 23:07:51 here. The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, 23:07:54 discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, 23:07:56 and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, 23:07:59 but each nonexisted in an entirely different way ... 23:08:00 but Wikipedia appears not to list them 23:08:01 -- Stanislaw Lem, "Cyberiad" 23:08:04 -oh 23:08:21 lmt: no copyvios, please 23:08:31 why not 23:08:59 huh 23:09:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures_by_type 23:09:08 Unicorn is listed under "Fertility and human sexuality" 23:09:16 omg my innocence :o 23:09:21 lmt: the innuendos are far too easy 23:09:30 Borges commented, "Not granting me the Nobel Prize has become a Scandinavian tradition; since I was born they have not been granting it to me." 23:10:25 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:10:27 now that he's dead, are we still observing the tradition or did that become impossible? 23:10:58 olsner: now I'm reminded of the headmaster at my secondary school attempting to create traditions via decree 23:11:10 if the decree is effective enough, it might eventually become a tradition 23:11:17 but you can't immediately cause something to become a tradition 23:12:53 "how do you know that unicorns exist? well, have you ever seen a unicorn that /doesn't/ exist?" 23:13:28 did you make that up now or is it a quote? 23:13:40 olsner: possibly both 23:13:52 it's not a direct quote of anything, but it may have been influenced by things I saw in the past 23:14:07 Everything you say has been influenced by things you saw in the past. 23:14:15 :O 23:14:39 now, if he doesn't exist, can he have seen things in the past? 23:14:47 :ꙮ 23:15:09 mouth full of bees :'( 23:15:28 beard of bees gone wrong 23:15:34 beerd 23:15:42 :-¦ꙮ 23:15:56 mouthless alien with two eyes and eight brains 23:16:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQtFpuylpA 23:16:21 Bee bearding is the practice of wearing several hundred thousand honey bees on the face, usually as a sideshow-type demonstration at agricultural shows. 23:16:25 Several hundred thousand?! 23:16:42 shachaf: that just means a hive 23:16:56 hives are pretty big 23:17:04 alt. bees are pretty small 23:17:39 they are very small if you squash them 23:18:49 if you squash some, the rest will go into a rage iiuc, which is a bad idea if you are using them for your beard. 23:19:38 well wearing bees strikes me as a bad idea in the first place 23:19:39 that's why you squash them before guing them to your chin 23:19:49 using a commercial grade bee squasher 23:19:59 I would recommend against it 23:20:10 ais523: so one should beware of wearing bees? 23:20:11 it's better than wearing nothing at all 23:20:25 imo wearing nothing at all is preferable to wearing bees 23:20:32 crass 23:20:43 and lewd 23:20:46 oerjan: indeed 23:22:20 wearing bees is worth it just for the puns 23:22:34 i'd be weary of that 23:23:11 http://totallycoolpix.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/23072011_coolest_pix_week_29/week29_022.jpg 23:23:24 i have no idea what that display says 23:23:35 is it a bee counter 23:23:53 * shachaf is not a fan of bees on a personal level. 23:23:59 presumably it's counting down time or something 23:24:05 bees are your friends though 23:24:10 I'll let them bee if they let me be. 23:24:28 lmt: shachaf doesn't _want_ to befriend them 23:24:31 presumably it counts down and then displays BEEEES 23:24:39 or to beefriend them 23:24:39 oh it is a scale 23:24:49 Wang won the competition after attracting 26 kg (57 lbs) of bees on his body in 60 minutes 23:25:13 how does warring weary bees compare to wearing wary bees? 23:25:21 shachaf: um... 23:25:42 oerjan 23:25:45 we need a beesolang 23:25:50 if i had some bees, i would bee your friend 23:26:00 ais523: it could be like that ant problem from ICFP 23:26:15 oh yes, although that one seems kind-of limited 23:26:35 we did that one in school except the prof came up with a strange variation 23:26:48 if an ant is surrounded, it dies and turns into 6 food 23:26:54 ais523: would that have a busy bee function 23:26:59 but additionally, you can drop 1 food on the middle of your ant hill and get 1 new ant 23:27:08 -!- Borgrel has joined. 23:27:18 so the winning strategy is... 23:27:28 not to play? 23:27:28 ZipList fs <*> ZipList xs = ZipList (zipWith id fs xs) 23:27:41 Any particular reason to use id instead of ($)? 23:27:50 ($) seems like it describes the intent more 23:28:06 Sgeo: hardly 23:28:11 id is more efficient 23:28:14 (By one character.) 23:28:15 ($) is the same as id, right? 23:28:18 or, hmm 23:28:20 @let ego = id 23:28:22 Defined. 23:28:23 it's obvious I'm just not thinking atm 23:28:30 ais523: Yes, with a different type. 23:28:31 so I'm not sure which way it's obvious 23:28:34 shachaf: if you use spaces where you don't have to 23:28:35 ($) is type restricted id 23:28:41 oh, only works on functions 23:28:59 There's also this variation: ($) !f = \x -> f x 23:29:02 this reminded me of someone talking about Verity's potential issues with accepting incorrect code 23:29:12 someone accidentally wrote bitwise OR (|) rather than parallel composition (||) 23:29:14 "($)" saves one character compared to " id " 23:29:22 and it didn't reject it because it treats commands as 0-bit numbers 23:29:23 truelsner 23:29:29 and it knows how to bitwise OR those 23:29:39 :x 23:29:40 but the synthesizer complained that it didn't 23:29:44 which is interesting, I guess 23:29:47 is verity the categorical dual of coverity 23:29:50 should probably add a specific error message for that 23:29:53 `welcome Borgrel 23:29:56 kmc: I don't think so, although that would be interesting 23:29:59 Borgrel: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 23:30:14 it's more like algol disguised as not-algol, with a particularly hardware-focused set of primitives 23:30:21 kmc, sorry from derailing you from your game 23:30:24 shachaf: isn't ($) defined as f $ x = f x? 23:30:25 kmc: would that be something that hides bugs in code instead of finding them? 23:30:27 What's the winning strategy? 23:30:28 > (undefined $) `seq` () 23:30:30 () 23:30:34 "algol disguised as not-algol" <-- like every imperative language am i rite 23:30:36 so it's not id. :( 23:30:36 elliott: Yes. That's why it's a variation. 23:30:40 Sgeo: well in game semantics you're not trying to win 23:30:43 right, but you said 23:30:43 just reach the end of the game 23:30:45 ($) is the same as id, right? 23:30:48 ais523: Yes, with a different type. 23:30:52 Right. 23:31:01 rude to show your ⊥ in public 23:31:02 > (undefined id) `seq` () 23:31:04 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 23:31:12 kmc: well most imperative languages don't disguise themselves as ML 23:31:15 which is what verity seems to do 23:31:19 Sgeo: you have that backwards 23:31:23 > (id undefined) `seq` () 23:31:25 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 23:31:31 oh 23:31:31 not that it makes a difference, but… 23:31:39 well it does, the test wouldn't work otherwise 23:31:44 just the broken test produced the same result as the correct test 23:31:53 > (undefined `id`) `seq` () 23:31:55 *Exception: Prelude.undefined 23:32:02 ooh, didn't know Haskell would let me do that 23:32:16 this seems like a minor technique in writing obfuscated Haskell 23:32:36 What, sections of non-operators? 23:33:04 shachaf: yes 23:33:12 it's like currying just backwards 23:33:26 > (`id`) 23:33:28 :1:6: parse error on input `)' 23:33:33 OK, I can't section it both ways 23:33:38 ais523: I consider that a bug in Haskell. :-( 23:33:40 > 4 `(+)` 5 23:33:42 :1:4: parse error on input `(' 23:33:45 :( 23:33:52 I wish `expression` worked. 23:33:53 `` takes an identifier, not an expression. 23:33:54 too bad it's ambiguous. 23:33:55 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `: not found 23:34:01 HackEgo: SORRY 23:34:10 elliott: clearly you need directed quotes 23:34:21 ‘(+)’ 23:34:25 or alternatively, both ` and “ 23:34:29 IIRC Haskell papers usually do that 23:34:30 elliott: `(...)` wouldn't be ambiguous 23:34:31 elliott: Isn't it great when you don't have to write parentheses somewhere? 23:34:38 oerjan: but it would be ugly. 23:34:40 Like matching on (a, x:xs) 23:34:42 elliott: yeah, because LaTeX does that by default and it's awkward to tell it not to 23:34:53 oerjan: I think I've had a good example of `f x` being useful before 23:35:00 maybe involving a higher-order function f 23:35:29 maybe just only allow nesting if you use parens. 23:35:33 ais523: i like to use (`f` x) rather than flip f x sometimes 23:35:45 so `...`...`...` nests iff you have ( in the first ... and ) in the last. 23:35:48 (`f` x) > flip f x 23:35:51 flip = the devil 23:36:18 x `compare (`on`) fst` y 23:36:36 nooodl: that's compare on fst 23:36:50 x `(`on`) compare fst` y 23:37:09 oh the ()s were "nesting" 23:37:15 x `comparing fst` y 23:37:30 nooodl: hmm, good point 23:37:35 what I meant was you'd do 23:37:37 `(compare `on` fst)` 23:37:39 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: (compare: not found 23:37:41 i forgot (`f`) is a thing 23:37:48 it isn't 23:37:52 it's not 23:37:56 good 23:38:04 not good 23:38:11 (`f`) should be a thing 23:40:39 wow, i scrolled up a bit and i'm tired and i read about everyone talking about how "<$> is the same as id, right?" and i thought i was going insane 23:41:04 ask = id 23:41:06 asks = id 23:41:08 ($) = id 23:41:12 > (1,2) & compare `on` fst $ (3,4) 23:41:14 Precedence parsing error 23:41:14 cannot mix `Data.Function.on' [infixl 0] and ... 23:41:22 wat 23:41:34 `on` is infixl 0 23:41:36 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: on`: not found 23:41:37 > (1,2) & (compare `on` fst) $ (3,4) 23:41:39 Just like $ 23:41:41 LT 23:41:49 i love mixfix 23:41:58 Bike: it is so easy? 23:42:02 elliott.................. 23:42:21 you made this bed shachaf. you have to lie in it. in fact I'm lying in it for you. it's comfortable 23:42:29 kinky 23:42:45 > (compare `on` fst) ?? (3,4) $ (1,2) 23:42:47 LT 23:43:13 ????????????????? 23:43:32 @type (??) 23:43:33 Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 23:43:41 (??) = flip 23:44:30 haskell sounds like fun 23:44:38 it's got too many parentheses 23:44:42 hmm... it's defined generally for functors? 23:45:03 > [sin, cos] ?? 0 23:45:05 [0.0,1.0] 23:45:06 Well, one generalisation of flip is that. 23:45:11 (r -> a -> b) -> a -> r -> b 23:45:27 right 23:45:28 There are other potential generalizations, of course. 23:45:40 Just like (.) can generalised to fmap or (Control.Category..) 23:45:43 ais523: whales are ungulates and narwhals have one horn ... they must be unicorns 23:45:49 generalerization 23:46:34 * elliott doesn't think anyone has yet used (??) for an f that isn't ((->) r) 23:47:24 oerjan has 23:47:41 elliott: i don't see why, it's a useful addition to applicative syntax 23:47:44 i guess you could generalize it for ((->) a) as well: (??') :: Functor f => (r -> f b) -> f (r -> b) 23:47:57 oerjan: I'm not saying it's inherently unuseful 23:48:11 (iirc there's a word for "unuseful") 23:48:14 I'm saying edwardk claimed it'd be useful because lens uses (a -> f b) things all over the place and as far as I know this hasn't actually turned out to be true :P 23:48:29 nooodl: hmm, that looks like Distributive 23:48:53 :t distribute 23:48:54 Not in scope: `distribute' 23:48:55 Perhaps you meant `distrib' (imported from Control.Lens) 23:49:22 {--} distribute (++) "abc" "def" 23:49:22 "defabc" 23:49:25 http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/distributive/0.3.1/doc/html/Data-Distributive.html 23:49:29 the one true generalisation of (??)???? 23:49:32 i can't think of an implementation for (??') ugh 23:49:38 :t (??) 23:49:40 elliott: in fact i think ?? (maybe not with that syntax) should be a Functor method, like <$ 23:49:40 Functor f => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b 23:49:47 nooodl: it's not implementable 23:50:10 hmmm you're right 23:50:15 oerjan: ok but look at distribute. isn't that totally the best flip generalisation 23:50:34 I wonder if (Functor f, Distributive g) => f (g a) -> g (f a) is doable 23:50:38 which would be a strict generalisation of (??) 23:50:48 oh wait. 23:50:51 that's exactly what I wrote. 23:50:57 so distribute is a strict generalisation of (??) 23:51:07 shachaf: you have to promise not to tell edwardk. 23:51:29 -!- Borgrel has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Pale Moon 19.0.2/20130308232348]). 23:51:55 "comapM [...] The dual of mapM: comapM f = fmap f . distributeM" 23:51:59 you people and your co's 23:52:09 well Distributive is Cotraversable 23:53:09 would "comap f = fmap f . distribute = fmap f . flip", that sounds like a good function 23:53:45 wait. i think it's actually something extremely boring 23:55:14 imo this channel should do numerical analysis instead of these oneliners 23:55:30 fuck numerical analysis 23:55:44 why do you have to ruin something moderately cool like analysis with numbers 23:56:13 fuck numbas 23:56:37 :t fmap ?f . (??) 23:56:39 (?f::f b1 -> b, Functor f) => f (a -> b1) -> a -> b 23:56:47 flip flip = flip... 23:56:49 whoah 23:57:11 :t \f -> fmap f . (??) 23:57:12 Functor f => (f b1 -> b) -> f (a -> b1) -> a -> b 23:57:18 Phantom_Hoover: flip flip is not flip 23:57:22 :t flip flip 23:57:24 b -> (a -> b -> c) -> a -> c 23:57:24 whoah 23:57:27 :t flip flip flip 23:57:28 :t (??) (??) 23:57:28 (a -> ((a1 -> b -> c1) -> b -> a1 -> c1) -> c) -> a -> c 23:57:30 Functor f => a -> f (a -> b) -> f b 23:57:31 :t flip flip flip flip 23:57:32 (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1 23:57:34 :t flip flip flip flip flip 23:57:35 (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1 23:57:40 :t flip flip flip flip flip flip 23:57:42 (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1 23:57:44 tada. 23:57:52 i sense a pattern. 23:58:01 :t flip flip flip flip flip flip flip 23:58:02 (a1 -> ((a -> b -> c) -> b -> a -> c) -> c1) -> a1 -> c1 23:58:06 strange, I was sure that would break the cycle. 23:58:08 :t fix flip 23:58:10 hello 23:58:10 a -> a -> c 23:58:14 Bike: hi 23:58:17 wait 23:58:22 that's stupid 23:58:28 :t (??) (??) (??) 23:58:30 (Functor f1, Functor f) => f ((f1 (a -> b1) -> a -> f1 b1) -> b) -> f b 23:58:36 :t (??) (??) (??) (??) 23:58:38 (Functor f1, Functor f) => f1 ((f (a -> b) -> a -> f b) -> b1) -> f1 b1 23:58:44 :t (??) (??) (??) (??) (??) 23:58:46 (Functor f1, Functor f) => f1 ((f (a -> b) -> a -> f b) -> b1) -> f1 b1 23:58:50 :t fix 23:58:51 > let cool f = fmap f . flip in cool (\f -> [f 1, f (f 1)]) (+) 5 23:58:52 (a -> a) -> a 23:58:53 [6,11] 23:59:05 "cool for Prelude"