< 1361232287 667518 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Quit: Poulet! < 1361232289 497267 :cuttlefish!~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361232305 918068 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`resume < 1361232307 17423 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :résumé < 1361232619 657686 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just applied to Jane Street < 1361232787 417955 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone actually use classy prelude? < 1361233028 139731 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1361233108 528187 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Jane Street doesn’t seek outside investment and doesn’t have customers. Our growth comes from hiring and training amazing people and giving them the tools they need to innovate." < 1361233117 207663 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am so confused. What do they actually _do_? < 1361233125 557469 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They trade. < 1361233137 968297 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear they make money < 1361233177 307471 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They make money off... the nature of a system built around the ability to exchange goods and services in a sensible way < 1361233186 917705 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when do people have to do things to make money < 1361233248 198062 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they likely make contributions to open-source stuff, but... < 1361233249 17324 :GreyKnight!~GK@dab-far1-h-1-5.dab.02.net QUIT :Quit: zzz < 1361233266 638145 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha oh Sgeo < 1361233270 538110 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It still feels weird that they fundamentally make money by... well, does it count as a service to society? < 1361233276 117186 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To... trade? < 1361233279 836401 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah providing liquidity blah blah < 1361233284 637628 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you want like, a lecture on modern capitalism < 1361233298 327857 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some strategies pretty clearly provide value < 1361233300 217789 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like market making < 1361233306 237544 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :others are purely exploiting inefficiency < 1361233334 829963 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my problem with HFT isn't some idea that it's evil, but the opportunity cost of all these smart people playing zero-sum games rather than improving the world < 1361233350 347533 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if your market making activity is beneficial, most of your effort goes into being slightly faster than the 20 other people trying to do it < 1361233354 492333 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does exploiting inefficiency actually benefit others, though? I... think it kind of could. If I'm too lazy to go across town to buy something, I will buy near me, even if it costs a little more < 1361233369 388602 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i meant that it doesn't < 1361233382 844168 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so < 1361233392 77549 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"exploiting inefficiency" is the leeches, "clearly provide value" is the weird seemingly pointless things that are actually quite helpful < 1361233405 597508 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do you know how a market order book works < 1361233408 648097 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1361233413 777510 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so say i'm a stock exchange < 1361233422 67538 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that exploiting inefficiency improved efficiency < 1361233436 137758 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each stock, i maintain a list of entries such as "person X is willing to buy at $a or less" and "person Y is willing to sell for $b or more" < 1361233450 987555 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :people send me these entries, i publish them to the world, they can also cancel them at any time < 1361233453 917441 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the order book < 1361233465 607311 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The market can't automate matchmaking? < 1361233469 137695 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :look < 1361233471 537404 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a computer here < 1361233481 127662 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am the automation < 1361233502 126756 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "people" who send me orders are also computer programs < 1361233509 219381 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it make sense so far < 1361233519 538458 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1361233527 628645 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: exploiting inefficiency in the sense of finding a niche that doesn't 'need' to exist for the rest of the system to function, and possibly deepening that niche out of self-interest. < 1361233537 787779 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, a trade happens if there's a buy order with price above a sell order < 1361233543 9980 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, a >= b < 1361233545 38061 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1361233554 417525 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this to happen, one of the orders was never actually displayed to the world < 1361233560 402362 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it immediately matched the other one when it came in < 1361233562 737796 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO < 1361233566 688376 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, ok < 1361233569 858089 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two sides of the trade are playing different roles! < 1361233584 998186 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the person whose order sits on the book is 'providing liquidity' < 1361233591 847980 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the person who matches that order is 'taking liquidity' < 1361233622 327539 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the stock exchange makes money on every trade < 1361233626 938087 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they charge a fee < 1361233634 897733 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they charge a large fee to the person who is taking liquidity < 1361233641 27497 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus encouraging people to provide liquidity < 1361233648 557629 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's what attracts more traders and makes the exchange successful < 1361233660 688112 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, many exchanges give a *negative* fee to liquidity providers < 1361233663 238123 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :liquidity rebate < 1361233682 998378 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :market making is a strategy where you provide liquidity on both sides of the book < 1361233704 529205 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're willing to buy *or* sell < 1361233711 327603 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bike: could you give an example niche? < 1361233719 257828 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your position gets too positive or too negative then you do only one or the other to get it back to zero < 1361233737 687309 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway one way for market makers to make money is the liquidity rebate < 1361233741 17931 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, because i'm not very familiar with banking < 1361233748 438362 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we lose money on every trade we make, but we make up for it in volume!" < 1361233799 448186 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the service that market makers provide to the world is ensuring that it's always possible to buy or sell a given stock < 1361233833 448318 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :by providing liquidity you're taking a risk. at any time, someone might come along and make that trade, and maybe by the time they do, it's a bad trade for you < 1361233837 498187 :hagb4rd!733cbb1923@koln-4db4eead.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if nobody wants it < 1361233850 508045 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could someone just make money trading market maker item to market maker item, or would the fees cancel that out? < 1361233869 718828 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the liquidity taking fee is larger in magnitude than the liquidity providing rebate < 1361233874 608375 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the exchange gotta get paid too < 1361233897 147769 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess the market makers are not going to have the prices be so.. drastically.. something that it would make sense? < 1361233912 390151 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-33.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361233943 727787 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also worth noting that before computerized market making, the human market markers were a good ol' boys club that got their positions by knowing a guy and colluded to screw over investors < 1361233974 879302 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :opening this up to everyone with a computer and shrinking the buy/sell price spread to pennies was pretty good for society, i would say < 1361234002 528088 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the big picture is that I think liquidity-providing strategies are easier to defend as useful to society than liquidity-taking ones < 1361234012 47999 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not impossible to defend the latter but it gets more and more convoluted < 1361234028 548325 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :another way to look at it is, the market is a distributed computational system < 1361234043 898222 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some participants are not willing to do the huge amount of computation necessary to determine the correct relative price of 3,000 stocks < 1361234046 798161 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe getting a job in this wouldn't be so bad < 1361234052 888720 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in exchange for their laziness, they pay a premium < 1361234059 818080 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that money goes to the HFT firms that do all the computation < 1361234089 118151 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've heard being a quant is kind of miserable < 1361234091 587595 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you point and click to buy stock on your retail brokerage's website, you're not getting the best price in the pennies place, but do you care? < 1361234098 837870 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a long term investor probably < 1361234099 438169 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still lucrative, of course < 1361234100 648959 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, oh well < 1361234104 358410 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody else makes a little money from you not caring < 1361234115 577966 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact retail orders are very unlikely to hit the open market < 1361234142 38348 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :every retail brokerage is going to run those orders through one or more internal HFT strategies and then shop them around to various other "dark pools" and such < 1361234152 18034 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :only a small chance you can see your order on the tape at ARCA / BATS / NASDAQ / etc < 1361234152 767921 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, can you be miserable for a while then make enough money to do something pleasant but cheap < 1361234168 208021 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think kmc has asked the most pertinent question about stock trading < 1361234171 41617 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric : do you care? < 1361234189 547902 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ultimate sketchy example of this is Zecco, a brokerage that offered zero-commision trades as a way to attract dumb retail orders that their HFT could profit from < 1361234202 338744 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1361234203 287951 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are ultra sketchy < 1361234205 518527 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecco.com#April_Fools.27_incident < 1361234285 908216 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the order book model above is super simplified < 1361234326 879061 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in reality, markets offer hidden orders, fill-or-kill orders, mid-spread floating orders, intermarket sweep orders, various forms of timeout, etc < 1361234341 188516 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :unclear if these are fundamentally useful < 1361234351 538178 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the complexity attracts HFT firms who think they can model the market microstructure better < 1361234356 7755 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :suddenly the evolution in Accelerando seems more plausible. < 1361234382 42100 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhere in here a sexual selection analogy is waiting to be made < 1361234383 288405 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say that market microstructure has almost nothing to do with banking, economics, or even most of finance < 1361234414 409923 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, is that another stross novel set in edinburgh < 1361234414 616249 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a strange, specialized game played on the microsecond scale, to determine which of two parties in an overall financial transaction gets a slightly better deal < 1361234427 947916 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's where babies come from < 1361234453 519248 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I forget where it's set, but it involves marketing drones evolving into lifelike forms. < 1361234466 389380 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the intelligent ponzi scheme was a good character imo < 1361234476 438564 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah having just read Accelerando was a key factor in me deciding to work in HFT for a while < 1361234491 178812 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does hft actually stand for < 1361234495 148401 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :high frequency trading < 1361234509 898082 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of lifelike form does the knight capital software evolve into < 1361234544 78588 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1361234553 48318 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc is the devil! < 1361234562 708300 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they all speak in phonetic scottish vernacular < 1361234595 168517 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could a stock exchange that makes HFT nonviable be created? < 1361234612 318471 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of the spam these days is with cancelled orders < 1361234623 28282 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :people have talked about putting in disincentives to cancel orders < 1361234638 418459 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: just remove all the computers < 1361234642 768466 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that < 1361234647 468429 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well you could just limit the frequency of trades < 1361234672 670464 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people feel that disincentives would be more "organic" than frequency limits < 1361234689 218122 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie. "we can game this more" < 1361234694 398190 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going for the mathematician's answer < 1361234705 508879 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any real reason to ban hft < 1361234709 908258 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :the game theorist's answer might lead to more interesting outcomes < 1361234727 58411 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you took orders over the course of a minute and then filled them atomically at the end < 1361234732 799025 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be very different < 1361234754 9482 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, its existence implies inefficiencies ... somewhere. Don't know if those inefficiencies could be fixed at the exchange level though < 1361234768 319992 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing i want is a market where everyone's strategies run on the same virtual machine host, and you can trade computation time like any other commodity < 1361234774 458244 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're going to deal with inefficiencies by slowing everything down or < 1361234788 422974 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: is computational economics, doing things like kmc just said, a field of study < 1361234801 299662 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is it just "economics") < 1361234802 318645 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "inefficiencies" is a pejorative way of saying "computation that needs to be done" < 1361234811 328467 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: plenty of people are rallying against the complexy of exchange fee structures giving rise to artificial situations that can be exploited for very little external gain < 1361234841 580674 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't particularly care either way < 1361234845 228609 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there like, a consistent criterion one could use to quantify activities with no external gain < 1361234856 548519 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: say you have a bunch of commodity options contracts; the relative prices between them are described by a very complicated mathematical model < 1361234863 718558 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact people can't agree on which model is best < 1361234874 728609 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :should the exchange be required somehow to run that model themselves and update prices in lockstep? < 1361234885 719115 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do they open up trading to HFT companies and effectively pay them to do that computation < 1361234893 18392 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see a priori why one is better than the other < 1361234921 548611 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and these are contracts that relate to the real world, are used by farmers and airlines and mcdonalds to hedge risk < 1361234931 59049 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :keeping that market efficient and liquid has a real social benefit < 1361234934 268738 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest complaint I've seen is that the order spam means that you might place a market order under the assumption that you'll intersect someone else's order on the book, but by the time you get there that order will be gone < 1361234942 88750 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the solution to that would be to not place blind market orders :) < 1361234945 25579 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to limit spam orders < 1361235015 268344 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going to watch some http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9B79FB0EADB3D0CD < 1361235094 49085 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: some really strange stuff here: https://www.google.com/search?q=nanex+strange+days < 1361235115 988052 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :nanex is really hardcore against HFT :) < 1361235118 538373 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, how much of a financial background am I going to need to have to understand any of it < 1361235125 538495 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :half my twitter stream is him bitching about it < 1361235132 99390 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1361235141 888494 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are pretty pictures < 1361235148 468491 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361235248 789005 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i don't think HFT is a good long-term career for programmers < 1361235255 338325 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for reasons I am happy to explain but not right this second < 1361235262 368263 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to purchase a burrito and then shove that burrito into my face < 1361235286 798824 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION only engages in LFT < 1361235392 229097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1361235998 269983 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361236058 509739 :Regis_!~Regis@186.222.62.175 QUIT :Ping timeout: 253 seconds < 1361237465 260516 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if there is a language that gets offended whenever you assume that a function will return because you're infringeing on it's autonomy < 1361237467 661466 :kallisti!~eris@h90.44.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361237467 867888 :kallisti!~eris@h90.44.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net QUIT :Changing host < 1361237467 868037 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1361237499 70048 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when you add numbers you need to provide a default value in case they don't add < 1361237564 720220 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This language is to the Maybe monad what Prolog is to the List monad? < 1361237569 452077 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when you use a value from a variable you have to specify what to do if the variable has forgotten < 1361237643 290947 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god I have working DNS < 1361237648 210752 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a miracle < 1361237664 140766 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! naturally most of the time every thing will be obliging but if you take things for granted it won't work < 1361237730 830264 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you can become friends with parts of the program and leave out some of the bet hedgeing < 1361237990 497601 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes variables won't want to store values for you because they have more interesting things to do, but if spend a little extra computation time thanking various parts of the program when they help you, they will be happier and faster to help you the next time you ask a favor of them < 1361238048 110739 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure this isn't the Sims < 1361238092 876832 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you get married to your variables? < 1361238097 450519 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a feature I find lacking in most languages. < 1361238124 310552 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but if you marry more than one there can be jelousy problems < 1361238178 512174 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be a truly object oriented language because it would make you treat objets with the proper respect < 1361238266 260559 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to interact with your married variables more than any other < 1361238294 740608 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361238304 595535 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Are you sure this isn't the Sims can you get married to your variables? this is a feature I find lacking in most languages < 1361238335 514006 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: that sounds like a DMM languages < 1361238339 921123 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/s$// < 1361238362 79065 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog: a synonym for "anything vaguely like logic programming" since 1980 < 1361238366 180669 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with simula was it wasn't simulationist enough < 1361238386 75720 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :965) Are you sure this isn't the Sims can you get married to your variables? this is a feature I find lacking in most languages < 1361238418 455091 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :some time i should figure out what prolog has to do with NLP again because i forgot < 1361238442 691442 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: what does DMM stand for? < 1361238533 361389 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :david morgan-mar < 1361238557 911348 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka dangermouse < 1361238665 189075 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading a book about discourse analysis and though that making a language that worked like human relations would be most natural. < 1361239099 265344 :madbr!boulam@198-84-253-87.cpe.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1361239139 14979 :hagb4rd!733cbb1923@koln-4db4eead.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn*t this actually the approach of cobol for example? < 1361239195 982298 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't marry variables in cobol, no. < 1361239215 11848 :hagb4rd!733cbb1923@koln-4db4eead.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry..just came in < 1361239243 692112 :hagb4rd!733cbb1923@koln-4db4eead.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*backlog < 1361239311 901524 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :marry a variable is more trouble than it's worth unless you're going to be using that variable pretty exclusively < 1361239407 165587 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monogamy is creepy < 1361239425 870923 :hagb4rd!733cbb1923@koln-4db4eead.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they found out marriage would be a bad pattern if there is no way of beating the variables < 1361239439 211306 :hagb4rd!733cbb1923@koln-4db4eead.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for that they decided not to implement it < 1361239447 937443 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :polyandry am i right < 1361239472 911222 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't enforce monogamy it just has jealousy as a anti scaling factor > 1361246308 685133 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361246309 401893 :glogbot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1361246309 837710 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 PART :#esoteric > 1361246312 809881 JOIN :#esoteric > 1361246313 324066 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361246383 659555 :Gregor!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1361246406 580150 :Gregor!codu@codu.org NICK :Guest26860 < 1361246710 601914 :Guest26860!codu@codu.org NICK :Gregor < 1361247223 762806 :Mathnerd314!~quassel@palevsky-223-221.rh.uchicago.edu QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1361247672 445644 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://videos.designworldonline.com/video/Air-Force-Bugbots i love the fake pigeon robot at 0:40 < 1361248987 11294 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should seriously look for that thing that I think ais523 would like < 1361249009 876288 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, actually, I don't know if he would < 1361250434 555891 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1361250554 887908 :iamcal_!uid1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-snemryerggcxkjiy QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1361250556 203518 :ssue!uid5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qvqouthkituohxwb QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1361250564 144226 :upgrayeddd!uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jixwmxqxwbgoobnx QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1361250617 960217 :surma!uid6361@c-base/crew/surma QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1361250626 974963 :jix!~jix@jixco.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1361251139 208087 :jix!~jix@jixco.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1361251170 649466 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361251210 587011 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1361251299 673798 :madbr!boulam@198-84-253-87.cpe.teksavvy.com PART :#esoteric < 1361251707 344114 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1361252210 632145 :TeruFSX!~TeruFSX@65-128-137-85.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1361253114 381189 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PC-Engine audio seems to very closely resemble something I have made once, except that mine didn't have global volume/balance, and it used ring modulation rather than frequency modulation. < 1361253415 231058 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hey github has examples < 1361253438 877042 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong channel < 1361253724 459876 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1361254138 185592 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I intend when I design the computer, one program being Famicom emulator to have two video modes, composite and RGB; the palette setting is ignored in composite mode (the digital video output is also disabled in composite mode, and the emphasis bits have different purpose with composite and RGB) < 1361254153 111844 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether you consider it a good design or not. < 1361254741 618356 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going to try to watch this and not be sad that it's C# and not Haskell < 1361254741 965361 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://channel9.msdn.com/blogs/charles/erik-meijer-rx-in-15-minutes < 1361257207 798030 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you know how I know you haven't heard of monadic reflection? < 1361257213 768971 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION angrily glares < 1361257370 840988 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/The_Monad.Reader/Issue2/FunWithLinearImplicitParameters < 1361257371 551784 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361257404 615736 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good markup < 1361257420 51997 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was apparently brought in from an older Haskell wiki < 1361257592 313940 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh linear implicit parameters < 1361257599 286237 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the few extensions GHC has abandoned < 1361257630 606368 :upgrayeddd!uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phdticjehxkmduvh JOIN :#esoteric < 1361257702 602698 :surma!uid6361@c-base/crew/surma JOIN :#esoteric < 1361257739 429919 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7e25.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361257780 584486 :ssue!uid5338@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zgjdddcxrfbzezdy JOIN :#esoteric < 1361257795 800611 :WeThePeople!~WeThePeop@unaffiliated/wethepeople QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1361257799 583044 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, does the direct style notation for monads described rely on it? < 1361257826 468755 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :reify (reflect [0,2] + reflect [0,1]) < 1361257829 75805 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love this so much < 1361257982 135286 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1361257986 617236 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't know < 1361258834 582661 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361259827 124450 :pingveno!adevore@rita.cat.pdx.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361260458 508082 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1361260915 540545 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7e25.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361261099 581592 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.176 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1361261768 611683 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1361261802 384683 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a comment with 1 karma.... because I got 10 upvotes and 9 downvotes. < 1361261802 584067 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(counting my own) < 1361261947 122690 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361262177 209022 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1361262276 236588 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1361263238 296668 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-166-9.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361263259 167281 :Slereah!x@ANantes-259-1-166-9.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1361263503 441112 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361263846 912851 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7ee1.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361264970 256299 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361265458 378709 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1361265834 383080 :GreyKnight!~greyknigh@dab-bas2-h-16-3.dab.02.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361266775 919720 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4d0b7ee1.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: hagb4rd < 1361266854 953220 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361266894 213727 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1361267896 973784 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1361268284 729041 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361268315 396112 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1361268798 749459 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:00:07 elliott, you know how I know you haven't heard of monadic reflection? < 1361268809 889137 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I don't know how you know this incorrect information, no. < 1361268816 881256 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feel free to keep angrily glaring, it hurts a lot! < 1361269013 579887 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1361270165 934754 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1361271437 320351 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1361272938 130318 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1361272973 644635 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361275086 238681 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361275094 312603 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1361275598 543398 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361275754 934281 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1361275778 266670 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`seen kmc < 1361275784 987392 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2013-02-19 07:13:06: don't know < 1361275791 913084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`time < 1361275793 326741 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found < 1361275794 104228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`date < 1361275795 668758 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tue Feb 19 12:09:55 UTC 2013 < 1361275986 125416 :Snowyowl!4f8d542d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.141.84.45 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361276098 91334 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1361276202 531805 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361276441 399639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run date +%s # the Internet time is measured in seconds < 1361276443 153315 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :1361276442 < 1361276462 755865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is there no %specifier for .beats? < 1361277169 500738 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361277350 46007 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, /r/pyongyang is a sight to behold < 1361277505 153927 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, seconds-ish. < 1361278336 508723 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1361278653 282630 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1361278978 205584 :Snowyowl!4f8d542d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.141.84.45 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1361279618 87321 :Snowyowl!4f8d542d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.141.84.45 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361280080 958664 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361280136 951475 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1361280222 408527 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361280531 711474 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1361281607 207819 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1361282133 540517 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1361282188 846320 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361282347 877155 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361282430 749729 :Snowyowl!4f8d542d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.141.84.45 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1361282734 279003 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361282854 865515 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1361283143 771151 :waksman!~waksman@cer51-4-88-164-111-159.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361283321 574584 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361283400 970650 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1361283734 869415 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-172.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1361283774 585252 :waksman!~waksman@cer51-4-88-164-111-159.fbx.proxad.net PART :#esoteric < 1361283853 14330 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile in Japan http://youtu.be/j2A002Em8Yw < 1361284057 94161 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361285651 163232 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1361285682 348718 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1361285965 435401 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361286527 535094 :cuttlefish!~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361288915 334516 :Regis_!~Regis@186.222.62.175 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361289241 816389 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361289246 617595 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/impressivewebs/HTML9-Responsive-Boilerstrap-js/issues/87 does anyone understand this < 1361289267 51393 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1361289456 389678 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know of a simple example of a function that is not primitive recursive even from a higher-order POV? < 1361289675 332844 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :first: cpressey is on github? second: what the shizzle is this ticket? < 1361289826 163879 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-172.elisa.ee QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1361289842 989197 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes ZOMGMODULES < 1361289854 659291 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9570 < 1361289905 944328 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-172.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1361289962 197934 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361290001 858340 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastequotes quote < 1361290007 951395 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4722 < 1361290034 40870 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 124 < 1361290035 915113 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :124) GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery! < 1361290114 562452 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1361290117 959619 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is 225 still there < 1361290119 177746 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :when 69 was added it was referring to < 1361290120 681729 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote 68 < 1361290122 344512 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :68) [Warrigal] `addquote hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( < 1361290123 923408 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably that < 1361290133 93062 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :istr there being a small-scale war over it < 1361290137 634050 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: good question < 1361290139 354771 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`delquote 225 < 1361290144 849605 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​*poof* `addquote I'm a bit 'tarded. (NOTHING PERSONAL!) < 1361290148 729785 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's not (RIP (Rely In Packages)) < 1361290174 515672 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how elliott slowly loses it across time. the pernicious long-term side effects of this channel made visible! < 1361290201 732961 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: how do you know I didn't start without it, and am now slowly regaining it? < 1361290228 798059 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: something something kaon symmetry. < 1361290609 853551 :tswett!~tswett@23.23.86.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: can you give me a simple example of a function that is primitive recursive only in a higher-order POV? < 1361290641 272937 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: ackermann < 1361290728 642928 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, cpressey is in Cornwall? or was. < 1361290734 509525 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let f(n) be the largest function that is primitive recursive from POV_n, applied n times to n < 1361290739 115921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go visit him or something. < 1361290763 467092 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott i get the sense you know even less about english geography than me < 1361290794 235155 :tswett!~tswett@23.23.86.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: so what does it mean to be primitive recursive in a higher-order POV? < 1361290862 745312 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's not in America so it's close enough to visit! < 1361290879 210555 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: that's a good question. would you accept a non-answer? < 1361290893 653026 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :my non-answer is found at the bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_function#Definition_and_properties < 1361290970 727453 :tswett!~tswett@23.23.86.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1361290987 285181 :tswett!~tswett@23.23.86.149 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. Maybe f(n) = the Conway chain 3 -> 3 -> ... -> 3, where there are n 3s. < 1361291104 205736 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1361291141 106469 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1361292926 178186 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1361293343 206410 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1361293405 136873 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-54f97e-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1361293533 414077 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1361293556 583698 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361293592 390117 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1361293604 540726 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361293631 272091 :iamcal_!uid1110@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vgfvbxgobixglzkf JOIN :#esoteric < 1361293728 907061 :pumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1361293733 291803 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361293784 954533 :pumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin NICK :copumpkin < 1361293834 242027 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1361293839 887348 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361293941 122343 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1361294011 917203 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361294073 738076 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/DVD_Burning < 1361294080 395542 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this is just fucking typical < 1361294125 309977 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bunch of outdated instructions that are useless for my system configuration < 1361294161 913354 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you just install cdrkit < 1361294165 211571 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361294166 132762 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its in the repos and all < 1361294176 971034 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-54f97e-153.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1361294186 105508 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :% ls /dev/cdrw < 1361294186 448959 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ls: cannot access /dev/cdrw: No such file or directory < 1361294187 572354 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why < 1361294231 515831 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :where /dev/cdrw is your DVD writer device. < 1361294237 378732 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems what is typical is your inability to read < 1361294290 235020 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :very helpful of it to tell me to use my dvd writer device without giving the slightest hint as to how i might work out what it is < 1361294900 865076 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1361294912 249961 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361295654 321358 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-172.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1361296299 87784 :Snowyowl!5c6b415a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.107.65.90 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361296573 690189 :Regis_!~Regis@186.222.62.175 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361296918 330917 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-172.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1361297037 197211 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1361297240 633172 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1361297342 584355 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361297884 477064 :Snowyowl!5c6b415a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.107.65.90 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1361298171 272223 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.176 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361298267 137359 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1361298293 560268 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361298621 520642 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi TOPIC #esoteric :2+2=5; http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130218/10364722017/pirate-bays-lawsuit-against-anti-piracy-group-more-about-exposing-double-standards-enforcement.shtml < 1361298633 710443 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit < 1361298701 399976 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi TOPIC #esoteric :CAUTION: YOU ARE NOW APPROACHING THE PERIPHERY SHIELD OF VORTEX FOUR | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ < 1361298704 529183 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1361298740 158449 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must be the worst case of "sorry, wrong channel" I've ever done < 1361298994 941951 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361299125 352284 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slist < 1361299126 476722 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot < 1361299166 396486 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/slist < 1361299167 742251 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot < 1361299199 860097 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :so olist is the old list, slist is static list and list is self-modifying abomination? < 1361299205 664650 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1361299224 303924 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist is the OOTS list, slist is the Homestuck list, and list js the self-modifying abomination. < 1361299232 39001 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1361299232 938735 :Phantom__Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1361299359 17284 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's karkat in the slist? < 1361299377 766290 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an OOTS? < 1361299384 609602 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :order of the stick < 1361299400 967442 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an important concept in topology < 1361299412 594165 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like so. < 1361299471 934921 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: so, does it work? < 1361299497 368807 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: does what work? < 1361299545 103829 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you could have pointed me at monadic reflection when I was rambling about mamb < 1361299562 846032 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: this. < 1361299577 915911 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: no it doesn't < 1361299588 126845 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: what is "this" < 1361299607 431457 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a word < 1361299631 670370 :Phantom___Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1361299685 370643 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn this is a word < 1361299689 152539 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that. < 1361299857 966742 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? this < 1361299859 892611 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a word < 1361299890 104552 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bird < 1361299891 820451 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bird? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361299912 520455 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn bird bird bird bird < 1361299916 480748 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that. < 1361299917 499085 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn bird is a dinosaur < 1361299919 187794 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1361299921 372524 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that. < 1361299921 863283 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? olsner < 1361299922 850216 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner seems to exist at least. < 1361299927 467296 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn bird bird bird bird < 1361299931 460133 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that. < 1361299948 915944 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "no" > wisdom/doesthiswork < 1361299949 596072 :Regis_!~Regis@186.222.62.175 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361299952 828601 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1361299954 819136 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? doesthiswork < 1361299956 917047 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1361299977 971140 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hackego < 1361299979 595125 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing. < 1361300002 535143 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "no" > wisdom/hackego < 1361300005 760737 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1361300021 884558 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert < 1361300022 718712 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? hackego < 1361300026 509452 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1361300027 745393 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1361300128 113311 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? fungot < 1361300129 770714 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone. < 1361300163 263901 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sword and a pawn? < 1361300191 187762 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't checkmate a king with just a queen, but queen and pawn work iirc < 1361300223 188880 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes Sgeo < 1361300229 415127 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, where's fungot? < 1361300236 229389 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the confusion here comes from where queens, or indeed chess, come into it in the first place < 1361300243 925490 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :youhou? fungot? où es-tu? < 1361300258 825551 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: FUNGOT!!!!!!! < 1361300263 79201 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: when it dies you yell at fizzie. < 1361300277 861217 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: thanks for the tip. < 1361300303 620881 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: FUNGOT! REVIVE IT, OR I'LL GO CANADIAN ON YOU! < 1361300306 283985 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, because HackEgo said "fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone". And I thought to myself, that's like not being able to be checkmated by a queen alone. < 1361300307 277471 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so apparently I "seem to exist at least." ... I guess I should be glad or something < 1361300313 918970 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1361300322 31350 :nortti!~juhani@nano.smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? nortti < 1361300323 843003 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti boy. very nortti boy. < 1361300328 380611 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, it... would have helped if you'd made any attempt at explaining that < 1361300336 147933 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? boily < 1361300337 890505 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily is Canadian or something. We are not sure about Canada's existence. < 1361300354 998163 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? Phantom_Hoover < 1361300355 283388 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? canada < 1361300356 590282 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :canada? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361300356 789686 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist. < 1361300388 405523 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? kmc < 1361300390 28260 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc ran the International Devious Code Contest of 2013 < 1361300453 173586 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :a code contest so devious you'll never hear anything about it < 1361300458 579487 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, because explaining jokes is always a good idea. < 1361300468 787692 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, uh. < 1361300475 698795 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no sgeo < 1361300480 856114 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess it wasn't really a "joke" so much as, um. Something. < 1361300481 832531 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still thinking about it < 1361300483 769578 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :biding my time < 1361300490 611486 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to decide if it's really a competition < 1361300496 797192 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i now hate competitiveness in hacker culture < 1361300536 338988 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point, however, is not to make figuring out what the joke has to do with the premise the main part of the joke < 1361300536 538063 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1361300570 213816 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1361300584 478874 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot!!!! < 1361300585 272601 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: what do you mean ' 5? :) ( i'm sure you're thinking about core syntactic forms or their names. ultra10s are named after weather stuffs < 1361300599 989574 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot! viens ici que je t'embrasse! < 1361300600 620017 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: i wish we were using some kind of bizarre interaction between minion and riastradh. :) for me, so i would've said brainfuck. < 1361300648 277062 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "ultra10s are named after weather stuffs" .. they are suns, but does fungot know that? < 1361300648 830078 :fungot!fis@eos.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ bin:/usr/ local/ lib" -dyydebug fnord -i./src -i./temp -c -o temp/ parser.o temp/ fnord ;p fnord < 1361300868 547389 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : does anyone know of a simple example of a function that is not primitive recursive even from a higher-order POV? < 1361300890 225042 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: if you don't help people compete someone else will help people compete and then they'll be better than you < 1361300890 640743 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the goodstein sequence length function? < 1361300893 236165 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you going to let that happen < 1361300898 319316 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361300913 543165 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i'm not _sure_ it isn't, but it requires a much higher ordinal than ackermann & stuff... < 1361300917 28583 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1361300944 102618 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sleazily and sneakily unbalances a parenthesis: ( < 1361300957 762285 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1361300974 868733 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OSHI- < 1361300980 624990 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1361300988 621302 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a Lisp that there's one that closes all open parens < 1361300997 246794 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like ] means however many ) is needed? < 1361301025 441069 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but modern lisps don't use it < 1361301025 854423 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: thanks < 1361301035 59248 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: note: I have no use for this, my interest is purely out of curiosity :) < 1361301059 441920 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone really been far even as decided to there's one that closes all open parens < 1361301075 455309 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that said, goodstein is a bit of a bag of worms in terms of something you want to *know* is total (but not primitive recursive)... < 1361301120 36679 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc if I rember correctly you use a [ and then later the ] would close everything in between < 1361301172 517152 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i see what you did there < 1361301180 915619 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I specifically had picolisp in mind, but I could be misremembering < 1361301196 72378 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: what should i buy from amazon that is very cheap or very useful < 1361301255 89185 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: let me check... < 1361301303 202171 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i am not entirely convinced it isn't "higher order primitive recursive", anyhow, since epsilon_0 _is_ the limit of omega^omega^... so you should be able to do something based on the height of that... < 1361301311 244656 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: did I do a thing < 1361301357 107798 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thingers gonna thing < 1361301436 48459 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe you need to go even higher, maybe to that "impredicative" stuff... but now i'm out of my depth. < 1361301437 377285 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: help < 1361301463 513458 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: at least this is a good argument for higher-order primitive recursion being all you need to write any function anyone actually cares about :P < 1361301471 759405 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(albeit potentially awkwardly) < 1361301567 600991 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1361301621 416729 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :where can i find a definition of higher order primitive recursive ? < 1361301649 941975 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no obvious hits from google) < 1361301674 46556 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a forma ldefinition. but "primitive recursive in the presence of higher-order functions" < 1361301694 429746 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you can define ackermann as a primitive recursive function that outputs another function by using higher-order functions < 1361301700 173657 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which themselves are primitive recursive) < 1361301793 476145 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I'm always partial toward books, but if you want something that is not too expensive and tremendously useful: http://www.amazon.ca/Victorinox-Swiss-Classic-Pocket-Knife/dp/B00004YVB2/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1361301423&sr=1-4 < 1361301808 787928 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(adjust to model of your choice, of course.) < 1361301867 499313 :GreyKnight!~GK@217.41.237.55 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1361301928 591255 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:54:08: anyway i don't think HFT is a good long-term career for programmers < 1361301931 596044 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:54:15: for reasons I am happy to explain but not right this second < 1361301937 343411 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I am interested in hearing this any time, by the way < 1361301940 634698 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have one. turns out my sister needs a tiny led device that isn't too bright and can be stuck to her dash < 1361301946 994669 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :soothing kmc rants < 1361301948 372270 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the soul < 1361301977 142852 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1361301986 938710 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: do you work in HFT? < 1361301999 596958 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: no, but i did for a year and change < 1361302008 857308 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem is that the code quality is shit < 1361302021 397112 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're building a magic money printing machine; every day you delay turning it on costs you huge in opportunity cost < 1361302034 717466 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the pressure is to copy-paste the most vaguely similar thing, hack it up until it kinda works, and start trading ASAP < 1361302067 195669 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the risk of bad trades due to bugs is not really factored in < 1361302069 475342 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if spending more time increases the rate at which your magic money printing machine prints money... < 1361302069 938059 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least where i worked it wsan't < 1361302081 746297 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm talking about infrastructural code, not the strategy code itself < 1361302085 637220 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was working on the former < 1361302096 387908 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if you're in that role, you are seen as a cost center rather than a revenue center < 1361302107 685455 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :your compensation is mostly bonus, but you're not directly working on one strategy < 1361302120 763991 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to play political games and get in good with the various traders in order to get a share of their bonus < 1361302132 59359 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's different at some firms where all traders work together and pool money < 1361302143 873366 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now wondering where kmc worked... < 1361302149 146330 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i was at a very 'siloed' firm meaning that it was a bunch of quasi-independent traders who didn't trust each other or share code < 1361302159 278771 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :admit it, you just wanted an excuse to use the word silo < 1361302164 838911 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i worked at http://www.tower-research.com/ < 1361302173 973026 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't get me wrong, they treated me okay < 1361302180 351875 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made a lot of money and had an ok time < 1361302185 200706 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wasn't the place for me long term < 1361302201 232258 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :one problem though is that there's a certain personality type, maybe even the dominant one, who absolutely can't tolerate a decrease in standard of living < 1361302208 923618 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're like that, you basically can't leave finance once you enter it < 1361302215 284202 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: maybe something like "definable in system F as a function in terms of church numerals?" the system F types prevent you from using general recusrion, but church numerals are all you need to do primitive higher-order recursion, they're like defined to be... < 1361302218 720738 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fortunate enough that i don't have this problem < 1361302226 584515 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*recursion < 1361302233 906184 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't really take credit for that because i think it's almost a biological addictiveness thing < 1361302236 685696 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :"decrease in employment" < 1361302247 192220 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :any more than i can take credit for being able to drink alcohol without becoming an alcoholic < 1361302263 394550 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you need something like system F to be able to use a church numeral on different functino types) < 1361302268 142201 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*function < 1361302279 172376 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp_: ^ < 1361302304 49251 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^[[6;2~ < 1361302325 255965 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! found. damned incongruous weechat shortcuts. < 1361302499 290771 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I see the power of pipes < 1361302514 969880 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you can define church numerals in system F, can't you? < 1361302570 484409 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: that sounds like a fun candidate for a genetic screen, to see which genes are more common than in the background population < 1361302644 875403 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: thank you for all the info btw, it was interesting < 1361302794 897195 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1361302806 863776 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1361302847 157666 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361302897 470445 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: sure, they're just the type forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a < 1361303083 968812 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right. so isn't it equivalent to "definable in system F"? < 1361303097 901689 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess :) < 1361303197 334214 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did you mean solely with the church numerals and nothing else? I guess not < 1361303236 367983 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely recall seeing Ackermann as an example of something you could define in Coq because it could do higher order primitive recursion < 1361303266 430452 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that more advanced things required you to prove well-orderedness of the relevant ordinal < 1361303290 156951 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1361303306 756245 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know that you *can't* define everything like that in terms of higher-order primitive recursion < 1361303313 766874 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it just being simpler not to do so) < 1361303339 384530 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Isn't that function application < 1361303393 178956 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except the a remains the same < 1361303394 370075 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be that everything with numbers boils down to h.p.r. provided you can prove the function terminates < 1361303399 725989 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ($) < 1361303401 54600 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> b) -> a -> b < 1361303415 307530 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh boy, we're acronymming already < 1361303418 181517 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: ($) is just the church numeral 1 :) < 1361303436 801072 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't necessarily trying to restrict things to numbers, but this just gets even vaguer if you don't... < 1361303448 353584 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: consider the function \f -> f . f < 1361303452 640128 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What's 0? < 1361303462 511084 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip const < 1361303470 193898 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka \_ x -> x < 1361303514 942256 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is 2 \f -> f . f . f < 1361303533 341026 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> join(.)(join(.))succ 0 < 1361303534 839553 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361303535 893289 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4 < 1361303546 937009 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: no, that's 3 < 1361303560 680973 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did learn a lot of cool things working in finance < 1361303570 325355 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned C++ for real < 1361303587 72503 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i quickly became frustrated that coworkers / existing code wouldn't use the language in full < 1361303595 369429 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned about high performance low latency network kernel things < 1361303608 330403 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned about how markets actually work, which is strange and terrifying < 1361303616 431710 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodstein is easily defined in haskell < 1361303648 857814 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doubts that Jane Street would hire him :( < 1361303654 242909 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :@let gs=g 2 where g b 0=b;g b n=g c$s 0 n-1 where s _ 0=0;s e n=mod n b*c^s 0 e+s(e+1)(div n b);c=b+1 < 1361303657 549865 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Defined. < 1361303659 203527 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I don't even have much knowledge about the language they use < 1361303659 775314 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: learning C++ for real doesn't sound particularly cool :P < 1361303667 831464 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know _other_ functional languages < 1361303668 510213 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :> map gs [0..3] < 1361303670 806687 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,5,7] < 1361303673 556893 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc c\+\+ < 1361303673 756795 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc says: C++ is at least interesting to learn. it's a good esolang < 1361303687 268989 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gs 4 is rather huge though:( < 1361303696 603991 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is gs 4 11 < 1361303696 802857 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i disagree < 1361303702 300856 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is a fascinating and unique language < 1361303706 698121 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp_: that's probably not primitive recursive though < 1361303706 898097 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's worth learning for the same reasons as Haskell < 1361303713 117890 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will change the way you think about other languages < 1361303722 760167 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gs 4 = 3 * 2^402653211 - 1 < 1361303724 842221 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to learn it in depth and not just "C with classes and crap" < 1361303725 148876 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1361303733 602314 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i guess it doesn't have a type which proves termination) < 1361303750 365064 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a nugget: C++ is the only language I know where objects are first class, not just references to objects < 1361303756 422891 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gs 5 is hard to describe in words:( < 1361303766 310581 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've said that half a dozen times and i still can't imagine what you mean < 1361303776 596594 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty cool to understand what this really means, and why it implies things like copy constructors and operator= exist < 1361303791 603299 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, when you do a = b, b gets ... copied, I think < 1361303792 753519 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: in Java if x is an object and you say "y = x" that's effectively just a pointer copy < 1361303795 713154 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's boring < 1361303804 987933 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> gs 6 < 1361303809 21614 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : mueval-core: Time limit exceeded < 1361303816 401367 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C++ you have pointers and references but you also have types for objects themselves < 1361303821 169278 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot knows the right words < 1361303825 445664 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can copy, and pass and return by value in functions < 1361303835 999893 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this has various other ramifications for the language < 1361303837 628964 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :huge ramifications < 1361303851 800350 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, couldn't you work for a few more years and retire:-? < 1361303852 609492 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361303877 369357 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you write gs in agda < 1361303878 13444 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example it's what makes RAII work -- because objects declared as auto variables have deterministic lifetime < 1361303885 81206 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's why you have copy constructors and operator= < 1361303888 419502 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361303896 376280 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1361303897 205312 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why smart pointers work < 1361303923 856160 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361303930 991166 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp_: they weren't paying me /that/ much and i wasn't working /that/ hard < 1361303961 222870 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you praising c++ anyway, this is #esoteric link to some scott meyer articles or something < 1361303970 431810 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean this was a "$100k/yr for 40-50 hr/week" not a "$500k/yr for 90 hr/week" kind of deal < 1361303977 155918 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, what is gs? < 1361303977 765375 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You mean objects aren't first-class in Ruby? < 1361303978 702500 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pay wasn't that much higher than FaceGoogleSoft < 1361303982 464698 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: i don't believe so < 1361304003 159630 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, in most contexts we conflate an object with a reference to that object, to some degree < 1361304007 843965 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in C++ the difference is very important < 1361304025 844715 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric := < 1361304027 833374 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have been paid more in subsequent years if i'd stayed but I also would have gone insane < 1361304037 52081 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even = doesn't mean the same thing among different languages < 1361304040 89559 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fun < 1361304041 71359 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's even without working a lot harder to get the big bonus bux < 1361304043 530925 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"even" he says < 1361304064 563790 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need equality diagrams for equality diagrams < 1361304071 690581 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the bonus system is kind of fucked up < 1361304080 393335 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet, talking about assignment here < 1361304090 277081 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you've been there a few years, most of your pay is in the annual bonus < 1361304094 665667 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :salary doesn't go up very much < 1361304099 270852 :tromp_!~tromp@rtc35-242.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus should be based on whole company performance < 1361304104 824565 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, = means assignment in your language? < 1361304124 901389 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a lump sum once a year, and it's arbitrary, and they would also tend to fire people right before bonus time < 1361304127 339571 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: it is interesting that finance seems to be the most viable career path if you want to do functional programming commercially < 1361304138 106624 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. i swear there was an existing monoid instance for Monoid (a -> b) that's just like, mappend = (.), mempty = id. (that IS a monoid, right) < 1361304139 568477 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why that is < 1361304143 346764 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: Endo < 1361304151 802713 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you get hooked on the high-spending lifestyle BUT most of your income isn't even a little bit guaranteed < 1361304153 741381 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1361304154 896038 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad combo < 1361304159 110472 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :people spending their bonus 6+ months ahead of time < 1361304160 74293 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :on rent < 1361304162 167654 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad times < 1361304168 996884 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a somewhat nonesoteric language where - does not mean subtraction? < 1361304174 657705 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the best lifestyle < 1361304184 268209 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: depends what fp is blah blah < 1361304194 845646 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right now i'm ass deep in anonymous functions in some javascript web code < 1361304197 27569 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to look up operator=, suddenly doesn't understand anything < 1361304211 747806 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: snobol? < 1361304216 836125 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: "haskell or ocaml or maybe F#" < 1361304222 516303 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or uh scala I guess < 1361304227 655924 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: APL :p < 1361304230 191111 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I've heard nightmarish things about scala < 1361304236 639762 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: pretty sure APL uses - for subtraction < 1361304239 948514 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, or Clojure? Or does Clojure not count as FP for you? < 1361304242 934019 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :T&T::operator=(T&&)throw() < 1361304265 936836 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses − not - < 1361304274 557155 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was sort of a joke) < 1361304294 272039 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iverson knows better than to use hyphens for subtraction < 1361304305 962037 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear bad things about Clojure too < 1361304321 596023 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you hear lots of bad things. < 1361304324 373136 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better: ¯ is a minus sign < 1361304331 751788 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's right, yesterday in the shower I thought of a programming language < 1361304334 102891 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and you say most of them Bike OH SNAP???????? < 1361304337 336466 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ] is a loop < 1361304353 380782 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else is a token that gets pushed onto the stack < 1361304371 289652 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( :( :( < 1361304380 389615 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :When [ is encountered, the loop enclosed by the matching ] is evaluated < 1361304393 624210 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the resulting stack gets plopped right onto the current < 1361304410 12648 :GreyKnight!~greyknigh@dab-bas2-h-14-1.dab.02.net QUIT :Quit: . < 1361304414 770832 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :When ] is reached, it's checked if the element is of type Loop < 1361304463 722927 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: it's ok < 1361304466 767169 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, it's popped off and checked if the value is Loop or Dont < 1361304473 997889 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet the interpreter for this language is shorter than the english description of the language < 1361304489 33819 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is no such value, then the whole stack gets dumped and the loop terminates < 1361304510 121837 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :No functions get evaluated until the very end though < 1361304517 321802 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for example [ < 1361304520 539298 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my self-esteem is destroyed :( < 1361304534 687279 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :So for example [ 3 3 [ + ] Dont ] will result in 6 < 1361304536 935207 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'd understand this better if it were an interpreter < 1361304538 435947 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361304554 125109 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn dont < 1361304554 841963 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :No match for "dont". < 1361304562 695902 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Dont, and why doesn't the [ + ] need it? < 1361304564 794390 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think I should write the interpreter < 1361304567 204219 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361304567 562846 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :~duck dont < 1361304567 913424 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet I'm not being helpful < 1361304568 230884 :cuttlefish!~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DONT is a conventional overcall against an opposing 1NT opening bid. < 1361304570 252226 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361304573 158723 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Dont is the default < 1361304592 557883 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does the outer loop need it? < 1361304596 619864 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't < 1361304601 14959 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just put it there anyway < 1361304607 59635 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's equivalent to [ 3 3 [ + ] ] ? < 1361304613 742492 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1361304623 815550 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is that equivalent to "3 3 +"?) < 1361304627 260822 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1361304633 972477 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1361304642 145712 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( I thought I understood it, now I don't < 1361304644 576559 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was pondering making looping the default though < 1361304649 642626 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know which one would be easier to work with < 1361304654 100033 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kinda get it < 1361304693 928080 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never wrote an interpreter for a language though < 1361304722 65330 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking this is a fusion between stack-based programming languages and brainfuck < 1361304738 880559 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call it Brainstuck < 1361304772 495019 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering when to do function evaluation though < 1361304804 728667 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because [ 3 [ 3 4 + ] + ] can be replaced with [ 3 7 + ] < 1361304804 928275 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your language is simpler than oklopol's brainfuck fuckiest fuck and it's a brainfuck derivative, don't write it!!! < 1361304841 475094 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for [ 3 [ 3 + ] ] there isn't a final value yet < 1361304869 385314 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck < 1361304869 585078 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: It doesn't actually take anything from brainfuck other than the [ ] similarity < 1361304901 834147 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainstuckiest < 1361304968 289635 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :replace [ with brain and ] with fuck < 1361304975 892751 :mroman!~roman2@fmnssun.ibone.ch PRIVMSG #esoteric :brain3brain3+fuckfuck < 1361305027 773309 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brain 2 fuck harder < 1361305046 550366 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 brains 1 fuck. that's probably been done already < 1361305050 229159 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.176 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1361305055 21750 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :... why did I not see the intermission intermission coming < 1361305073 447879 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t over < 1361305074 929489 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Profunctor p => Setting p s t a b -> p a b -> s -> t < 1361305081 843241 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIEEE < 1361305089 287547 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :s t a b < 1361305098 269859 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote s.t.a.b < 1361305098 469398 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :byorgey says: @type (^.) s -> Getting a s t a b -> a I would not like to be getting a stab, thank you < 1361305124 579859 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type system of that library is probably written just for that joke < 1361305144 624309 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/GHC-Generics.html#t:M1 < 1361305149 103284 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was accidental < 1361305184 792400 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought someone pushed it to change from abcd to stab? < 1361305201 660844 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that was shachaf < 1361305203 77469 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is there not an esolang named Branefuck < 1361305204 801245 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wasn't for the pun < 1361305211 912089 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I think oklopol described one < 1361305214 307099 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs branefuck < 1361305217 848690 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf was deep pundercover < 1361305245 72900 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if TH were nicer < 1361305245 781994 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1361305248 237026 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf is very sharp < 1361305255 191083 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: you are a horribleterrible person < 1361305280 270101 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1361305282 599839 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: are you expecting somebody who wants to make a brainfuck derivative to know anything about brane theory < 1361305297 314560 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: yes < 1361305307 774581 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pastelogs branefuck < 1361305322 707103 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1806 < 1361305331 248991 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> over (element 3) succ "Sgeo" < 1361305334 221745 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Sgep" < 1361305349 217502 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :> over _last succ "Sgeo" < 1361305351 588368 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Sgep" < 1361305353 45142 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so branefuck only exists in that it is speculated on, cool < 1361305368 663515 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't like branefuck to become the new Canada. < 1361305370 979916 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> set (element 3) 'p' "Sgeo" < 1361305371 231375 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361305373 120874 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Sgep" < 1361305433 440986 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: if you know things about brane theory please create branefuck < 1361305437 343096 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess oerjan is most likely to < 1361305463 767316 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :. being backwards is going to confuse me < 1361305492 585415 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: there is FukYorBrane < 1361305493 205655 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not backwards < 1361305500 842719 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (map.fmap) succ [(1,2),(3,4)] < 1361305504 804908 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [(1,3),(3,5)] < 1361305514 551674 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (map.first.map) succ [([1,2],2),([3,4],4)] < 1361305517 307107 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [([2,3],2),([4,5],4)] < 1361305521 788298 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok that one is symmetric so maybe a bad example :P < 1361305538 471946 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (map.first.map.first) succ [([(1,2),(3,4)],2),([(5,6),(7,8)],4)] < 1361305541 345622 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [([(2,2),(4,4)],2),([(6,6),(8,8)],4)] < 1361305551 718647 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :> mapped . _1 . mapped . _1 %~ succ $ [([(1,2),(3,4)],2),([(5,6),(7,8)],4)] < 1361305554 477149 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [([(2,2),(4,4)],2),([(6,6),(8,8)],4)] < 1361305556 781181 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same order < 1361305560 162729 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no idea about brane theory, well it's something related to strings i think. < 1361305578 873290 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.28.48 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1361305590 127200 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t (%~) < 1361305591 754737 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Profunctor p => Setting p s t a b -> p a b -> s -> t < 1361305597 750048 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i'm pretty sure he means in lens? < 1361305602 739900 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::i Profunctor < 1361305604 8533 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes. < 1361305608 645084 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did you read my last two lambdabot queries? < 1361305616 244429 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they express the same idea, and compose in the same order < 1361305620 551377 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the _first_ one has nothing to do with lens at all < 1361305620 913581 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :The resonant frequency of a planck length of fuck you < 1361305622 510091 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1361305639 73891 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1361305641 223881 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it composes exactly the right way for what conal calls semantic editor combinators -- i.e., editing functions < 1361305645 603989 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fmap, first, etc. < 1361305653 354617 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the error is in considering a lens as a type of getter < 1361305660 72933 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you consider it as a type of setter, then the order falls out of that < 1361305687 201442 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in fact a lens is just a semantic editor combinator polymorphic over an effect) < 1361305699 516394 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :((a -> b) -> s -> t becomes (a -> f b) -> s -> f t) < 1361305716 967520 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361305719 737869 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t mapped < 1361305721 130774 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Functor f, Settable f1) => (a -> f1 b) -> f a -> f1 (f b) < 1361305878 558006 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lenses would probably make my Trustfuck implementation clearer < 1361306081 22086 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are there unsafeCoerces in Lens? < 1361306088 540392 :coppro!raedford@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic < 1361306094 264338 :carado!~user4539@2a01:e35:8b61:e430:6ef0:49ff:fe73:1fd0 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1361306128 422737 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because GHC is bad at optimising newtypes < 1361306142 6131 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the unsafeCoerces are in the instances of profunctors < 1361306146 992497 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the profunctors package < 1361306156 775579 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we use them in a standard pattern because of GHC < 1361306177 426674 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361306209 39532 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1361306325 792106 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will there ever be a language extension for making lenses automatically without TH? < 1361306356 594829 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-172.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1361306405 226224 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a multitude of record system proposals. using TH is convenient enough as it is < 1361306652 977860 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :high performance libraries typically make a mockery of the idea that Haskell is a type-safe pure functional language < 1361306657 140814 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this is basically fine though < 1361306665 842612 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :push the ugliness into core libraries, give users a nice interface that's also fast < 1361306675 202966 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would still rather write my impure unsafe marshalling code in Haskell rather than C < 1361306678 511747 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :for many things anyway < 1361306755 392863 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we don't even really do anything that bad < 1361306771 825763 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just composing newtype constructors/destructors onto functions (actually arrows in a profunctor) < 1361306778 800532 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the single thing GHC is too dumb to inline away for us < 1361306790 746785 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well except edwardk's generalisations might have screwed up the whole "it inlines to nothing" part of lens < 1361306900 508416 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In languages like C, is high performance code typically idiomatic? < 1361306908 482855 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or in CL? < 1361306910 313680 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same question < 1361307074 57923 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all relative < 1361307088 318884 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would say the gap is smaller in C but it's still there < 1361307109 70865 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also depends a lot on your compiler < 1361307117 376048 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :same in Haskell except everyone uses the same one < 1361307137 125271 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C people will do things like hand-unroll loops if the compiler isn't smart enough to < 1361307159 868673 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i saw a good presentation about how most cutesy C performance tricks are counterproductive these days < 1361307185 559588 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're better off writing the straightforward thing and letting the compiler and CPU pattern-match it < 1361307197 552829 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a lot of C programmers didn't get the memo yet < 1361307225 939999 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I unrolled one step of a few recursive functions in some Haskell code. But it was for better inlining, because GHC is awful at inlining recursive things. < 1361307237 399746 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know GHC doesn't turn "reverse []" into "[]"? < 1361307310 566622 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Micro-optimization scares, confuses, and frightens me < 1361307323 845782 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic example is the xor swap: "a ^= b; b ^= a; a ^= b;" < 1361307335 686569 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this looks clever and sounds better than "temp = a; a = b; b = temp;" < 1361307340 172835 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hacker's delight is fun < 1361307355 280091 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike, ? < 1361307356 55506 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why not? < 1361307363 236194 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's faster if you assume the compiler is "close to the hardware" and that the CPU is an in-order sequential processor from the 70s < 1361307366 398039 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is often assumed < 1361307377 740398 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but actually compilers will recognize the temp swap and use an exchange instruction < 1361307384 67588 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: Well, inlining recursive functions is tricky. < 1361307389 528284 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if they don't, exchanging registers is cheap because the hardware is doing register renaming anyway < 1361307403 79991 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: a book with a lot of micro sort of tricks, which as kmc is saying are more and more integrated into tools < 1361307404 866048 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the xor trick ties up arithmetic units and introduces more data dependencies < 1361307412 81829 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.113.152.173 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a copy of Hacker's Delight. First edition unfortunately. Not sure what they added in the second edition. < 1361307425 182023 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i'm just thinking not side effectful operation on constant argument < 1361307425 601698 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a lot of the things in HD don't have an idiomatic naive form like the swap does < 1361307441 344935 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: ? < 1361307450 78882 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't expect a compiler to recognize a for loop that counts the number of bits set in a word < 1361307455 158054 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :though compilers can be scary smart < 1361307465 477390 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I bet some do. < 1361307486 910147 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked the thing where clang will implement "if (x == 3 || x == 17 || x == 29 || x == 31)" by building a lookup table in an immediate 64-bit value < 1361307495 150014 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was crazy < 1361307521 25855 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: i bet some compilers recognize the xor swap, sigh, and emit an XCHG < 1361307535 496055 :impomatic!~digital_w@87.113.152.173 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random question: does anyone know how to download every message ever posted to a USENET group, going back ~25 years? < 1361307552 827335 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be a compiler thing where it generates a De Bruijn sequence for you. < 1361307569 679019 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey nice, that paper on cuttlefish sight says specifically they used PowerPoint to make checkerboards for some reason < 1361307583 931645 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :....paper on cuttlefish? < 1361307602 628847 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1361307607 536563 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did u kno people study animals < 1361307608 254544 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that surprising or < 1361307630 131276 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought momentarily that "cuttlefish" had to be referring to a computing thing < 1361307634 881147 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I hadn't heard of < 1361307642 485727 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1361307644 587391 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuttlefish: eval "hi sgeo" < 1361307648 994218 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :~eval "hi sgeo" < 1361307649 668721 :cuttlefish!~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hi sgeo" < 1361307664 858377 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Papers on boily's bot. < 1361307667 282178 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should find that paper about how some marine organism i forget much about has eyes like television cameras < 1361307686 630142 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(eyes are really weird) < 1361307727 700341 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only named my bot cuttlefish because of circumstances involving chocolate ice cream and a game of DOTA in tokyo. < 1361307785 635861 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds exciting < 1361307787 869983 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the circumstances I mean < 1361307792 972676 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1361307812 769638 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361307834 781859 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :searching for "ieee transactions on cuttlefish" got me "Initial Design of a Biomimetic Cuttlefish Robot Actuated by SMA Wires" so i'm gonna call this a win < 1361307867 278967 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful < 1361307874 322655 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot less than i expected on vision actually < 1361307920 705058 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Undulating Fins of a Cuttlefish Robot" also things that may be porn? < 1361307948 928508 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Edge detection and texture classification by cuttlefish" sounds interesting. < 1361308003 893200 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah most of the work on cuttlefish seems to revolve around the camouflage/sight business < 1361308043 128348 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use differently patterned camouflage based broadly on whether whatever it is is "continuous" or "discrete" so it's probably a pretty good model organism for edge detection crap < 1361308257 903626 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you see the squishy robots from harvard < 1361308260 310972 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have no bones < 1361308283 41600 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're like rubbery envelopes that move around by fluids being pumped in/out (externally) < 1361308333 776659 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reminds me of these creatures in a book i’m reading. < 1361308341 937650 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like myself some squishy robot with me, but I doubt it'd taste as delicious as the real thing. < 1361308359 886052 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cuttlefish is squishy except for the cuttlebone. < 1361308369 262468 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it eats harder things like crabs and shrimps < 1361308390 260734 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i watched the nova documentary on cuttlefish, it was freaking cool < 1361308404 39407 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them will circle their prey while blinking a hypnotic skin coloration pattern < 1361308410 770325 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in order to dazzle and then eat them < 1361308428 396271 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1361308429 739081 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing them eat is weird < 1361308434 295118 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, shoop, you're dead < 1361308447 177425 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah they have some kind of mouth part that jets out to grab < 1361308450 403341 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it one of the tentacles < 1361308455 497550 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently they know to grab crabs from behind < 1361308463 797502 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :cause the pinchy bits are at the front of the crab < 1361308647 440399 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys, i spent hours copy pasting links to finally build the M4SteRlSt of internernet radio stations..don't even know why, but having about 3000 entries a life-savig wonder happened, and i decided i was ready. < 1361308647 679450 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so first of all i wanted i wanted to hide the treasure and buried it somewhere, so some archeoligsts might find it the future completely overthrowing their views on the culture of our time. but even before i thought this through this jagged naughtly little shit turned out to be a tiny RESTservice!! < 1361308647 679637 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well so here it is: < 1361308653 999085 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hagbard.host-ed.me/admin/radio.php?out=debug&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=* < 1361308660 245998 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hagbard.host-ed.me/admin/radio.php?out=debug&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=* < 1361308669 438481 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can do somethin useful with this. like connect it to a radio or pipe it to dev/null < 1361308757 242772 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tumbles < 1361308964 370516 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361309058 934533 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch http://hagbard.host-ed.me/admin/radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* < 1361309063 570342 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2013-02-19 21:24:22 URL:http://hagbard.host-ed.me/admin/radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* [58/58] -> "radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab*" [1] < 1361309094 243303 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hagb4rd: what can i use that for and how < 1361309157 700357 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can switch between 3000 cool radio stations.. just need to plug that shit to that HTML5 audio element for example < 1361309166 572503 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess that's about it < 1361309182 500308 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure..anyone could add links < 1361309189 195665 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :one could rate it and stuff < 1361309192 221236 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but blah < 1361309205 754086 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why not go ahead and plug it into that html5 audio element on your page < 1361309213 540081 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1361309220 909061 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361309266 466124 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll show you later on < 1361309310 937388 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i need a break..eat someting..take a walk. < 1361309321 331990 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1361309324 589450 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea < 1361309329 208766 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1361309701 407093 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :freefull: how would you get a loop to cycle 5 times? in all your examples it looked like they stopped after one cycle < 1361309799 674198 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw.. you mostly don't even need to implement sth with the out=firstforward option.. but that depends on your client.. < 1361309802 505031 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hagbard.host-ed.me/admin/radio.php?out=firsforward&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=* < 1361309849 272746 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gets a completely random stream and puts it directly to the client (whatever requested it) < 1361309882 407939 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i could add some mime/http headers :..later < 1361309898 103668 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hagbard.host-ed.me/admin/radio.php?out=firstforward&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=* < 1361309933 311278 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net NICK :hagb4rd|lounge < 1361310126 694351 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1361310146 277532 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361310154 443247 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? endofunctor < 1361310156 372720 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories. < 1361310284 262179 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: 5 [ 1 - 0 == Loop Dont ? ] < 1361310332 513906 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? endomorphism < 1361310334 415947 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endomorphisms are just morphisms which compose with themselves. < 1361310336 543522 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, swap the Loop and Dont < 1361310339 455457 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or make it /= < 1361310347 302989 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? endotheworld < 1361310348 955009 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :endotheworld? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361310352 562333 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or make it >= < 1361310372 788136 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? endoendofunctor < 1361310374 580557 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :endoendofunctor? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361310375 385108 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@46.115.54.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361310391 208684 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: 5 [ 1 - 0 >= Loop Dont ? ] < 1361310392 207847 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? exofunctor < 1361310393 80684 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :That should work < 1361310393 570406 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :exofunctor? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361310402 635501 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? exomorphism < 1361310404 82377 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :exomorphism? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361310406 97096 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? category < 1361310406 601343 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1361310407 668698 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Categories are just categories. < 1361310426 164095 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :not categories in the category of categories? < 1361310426 363608 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls -lh wisdom/category < 1361310428 103698 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 32 Feb 13 16:28 wisdom/category < 1361310429 262228 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls -lh wisdom/categories < 1361310430 961749 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/bin/ls: cannot access wisdom/categories: No such file or directory \ /bin/ls: cannot access wisdom/categories: No such file or directory < 1361310431 452410 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :freefull: I see now < 1361310444 679807 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo "Categories are just a special case of bicategories." >wisdom/category < 1361310445 742797 :hagb4rd|lounge!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? endoscope < 1361310447 960324 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1361310449 474729 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :endoscope? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361310459 623783 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bicategory < 1361310461 373828 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :bicategory? ¯\(°_o)/¯ < 1361310468 458404 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :a generalization of categories? < 1361310477 937627 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'a special case' isn't nearly almost helpful enough < 1361310490 953734 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not supposed to help, duh < 1361310514 692191 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :this aint #category-helpdesk < 1361310544 341913 :fenris_kcf!~fenris@x233.wh17.tu-dresden.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1361310546 637823 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: yes < 1361310552 822531 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :freefull: why have a special "loop/ don't" version of boolians? why not use normal boolians for the loop test? < 1361310561 883462 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said almost help < 1361310571 526845 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: there's even (∞,n)-categories < 1361310577 346198 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no fucking idea what they are < 1361310581 846439 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :good categories < 1361310587 50481 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it. < 1361310591 50405 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew that. < 1361310610 979767 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those the same as quasicategories? < 1361310620 349335 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: Because of what happens when you don't have the right indicator on the stack < 1361310621 189439 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also called quasicategory, weak Kan complex, inner Kan complex, infinity category, ∞-category, Boardman complex, quategory) < 1361310645 513015 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the center cannot hold\ < 1361310649 811347 :lale!~lale@190.206.127.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361310653 592917 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :freefull: what happens? < 1361310654 270606 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome lale < 1361310656 417281 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :lale: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1361310657 377476 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :An (∞,n)-categories are just (n,r)-categories where n=∞ and r=n < 1361310659 291027 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the center already gave up sgeo < 1361310661 832796 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/...// < 1361310671 479482 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome fenris_kcf < 1361310673 167431 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fenris_kcf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1361310680 393669 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: The loop terminates and everything gets dumped < 1361310692 107042 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Onto the higher-up loop's stack < 1361310705 950644 :lale!~lale@190.206.127.94 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361310736 632330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1361310783 113773 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :freefull: I mean, could you give a nice example where it is nicer to use loop/not loop than 0/not 0? < 1361310816 536779 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going to go read all of PBF now < 1361310871 992358 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-50-17-26-83.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :good life choice < 1361310881 826741 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ 4 [ 1 - 3 = ] 10 20 ? ] < 1361310909 393458 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, you should be able to surround anything in [ ] and have the code do the same thing unless there is a Loop/Dont < 1361310931 498868 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to look into actually implementing this < 1361310935 350598 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a good reason < 1361311066 129176 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if something resembling higher-order functions is possible with this syntax or not < 1361311201 209111 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what about [ [ 1 - 3 = ] don't loop ? ] < 1361311221 254329 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant [ 4 [ 1 - 3 = ] don't loop ? ] < 1361311240 675359 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we put brackets around "loop" does it's behavior change? < 1361311247 392169 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ [ 1 - 3 = ] don't [loop] ? ] < 1361312212 164532 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't [ loop ] an infinite loop < 1361312221 80402 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(did this thing change since you last talked about it) < 1361312295 296861 :cuttlefish!~cuttlefis@2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1361312354 852847 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that it is an infinite loop which is why I can't quite make them work like higher order functions. < 1361312362 65762 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the one value you can't return < 1361312394 274646 :boily!~boily@mtl.savoirfairelinux.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1361312577 207961 :GreyKnight!~GK@host86-163-255-138.range86-163.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1361313273 788167 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ Loop ] is an infinite loop < 1361313369 657186 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ Loop Dont ] returns Loop < 1361313381 457287 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ Dont Dont ] returns Dont < 1361313397 230811 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: Is this satisfactory? < 1361313459 864156 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is satifactory (I've always had a poor imagination) < 1361313540 159425 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so by using [ * dont ] you can surround anything without change < 1361313579 567212 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1361313588 730713 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if loop looped on boolians [ * 0 ] would do the same < 1361313935 348710 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@46.115.54.49 QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331] < 1361314316 33496 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much < 1361314375 156717 :noam_!~noam@213.57.201.130 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1361314414 316836 :nooodl_!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 NICK :nooodl < 1361314452 186287 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361314677 670071 :dessos_!~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1361314845 43459 :dessos!~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1361314861 751495 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361314879 317398 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1361314902 351805 :rodgort!~rodgort@li125-242.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1361315482 604456 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: That is a good argument for getting rid of Loop/Dont actually < 1361315804 900025 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you hit the end of a loop and the inside is true then, then the loop is reset to exactly how it was before executing? < 1361315924 56921 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1361315933 644371 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiationtest >->(-)*5>(+)*5(>)*3(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(+)*4[<(-)*50(>)*7(>[-[-[-[(>)*3(+*100[+]>)*5]]]])*18](-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-] < 1361315946 113734 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiationtest: 20.4 < 1361316216 221240 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiationtest >->(-)*5>(+)*5(>)*3(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(+)*4[<(-)*50(>)*7(>[-[-[-[(>)*3(+*100[+]>)*5]]]])*18](-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>>(+)*50(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-] < 1361316218 686594 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiationtest: 32.2 < 1361316232 971569 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: so what does brachiation actually do? < 1361316246 317632 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind-of all over the place in terms of trying to read it < 1361316250 140382 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if I should evaluate everything as soon as possible, or to delay evaluation until the end < 1361316275 630174 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which might or might not have an effect on stack manipulation operators depending on how they're implemented < 1361316302 700918 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiationtest >->(-)*5>(+)*5(>)*3(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(+)*4[<(-)*50(>)*7(>[-[-[-[(>)*3(+*100[+]>)*5]]]])*18](-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>>(-)*4<(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-] < 1361316305 191641 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiationtest: 19.1 < 1361316308 856949 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1361316325 141612 :hagb4rd|lounge!~perdito@koln-5d81e99d.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: hagb4rd|lounge < 1361316381 5395 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :great programs here quintopia < 1361316413 600825 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the 3s < 1361316429 430189 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it would matter for IO, unless I decide to try special syntax for that < 1361316435 859796 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiationtest >->(-)*5>(+)*5(>)*3(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(+)*4[<(-)*50(>)*7(>[-[-[-[(>)*3(+*100[+]>)*5]]]])*18](-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>>(-)*5<(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-] < 1361316438 347475 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiationtest: 37.0 < 1361316449 529550 :Regis_!~Regis@186.222.62.175 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1361316520 393566 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could probably do better by adding a longer special case for that decoy, but it's supposed to be somewhat golfy < 1361316573 60633 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: its basically the golfed version of space hotel. it sacrifices the ability to know exactly where was poked in order to be smaller < 1361316585 522108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1361316588 394771 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361316589 564611 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the original _poke? < 1361316600 342199 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if to do it as a Haskell EDSL or if I should do it properly with Parsec < 1361316631 550324 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone written a genetic algorithm for bf joust < 1361316636 792226 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1361316639 781088 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds so perfect for the task < 1361316648 419688 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiation >->(-)*5>(+)*5(>)*3(>[(<)*3(+)*7<<(+[<{}>(+)*4[<(-)*50(>)*7(>[-[-[-[(>)*3(+*100[+]>)*5]]]])*18](-)*50<(-)*50<(-)*10>>>(-)*5<(>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](+)*50)*3 (>-[(-)*50(>)*7(>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*27](-)*50)*2(>)*7 (>[(-)*5([+{[(+)*25[-]]}[+]])%10[-]][+][-])*22])%28]++)*22>(-)*115[-][+][-] < 1361316651 193647 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiation: 36.8 < 1361316677 893449 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bfjoust brachiationtest < < 1361316680 418214 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​Score for quintopia_brachiationtest: 0.0 < 1361316708 775805 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: it's actually quite hard to evolve a good jouster < 1361316722 46599 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :genetic algorithms do sort-of OK at constant tweaking, but brute force does better for that < 1361316736 324640 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just rewrote it slightly to be able to beat programs that outrush it, like david_werecat_golf < 1361316740 637013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of general strategy, the problem is that the parts of your program typically have to work together in some meaningful way < 1361316757 241882 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, it now knows how to deal with rushes that don't leave decoys < 1361316771 324243 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :or few decoys < 1361316780 820172 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a lock/full-tape-clear combo as an example of something that doesn't seem likely to be generated by any sort of naive evolver < 1361316836 944723 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be done. you could evolve based on parameterized genes that generate various strategy types < 1361316887 991537 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, and information free language http://pastebin.com/trAf3vbP < 1361316895 744518 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*an not and < 1361316912 141538 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "start a full tape clear at cell 8 that runs 64 cycles out of every 128 and cedes control to another gene in the remaining cycles" is one type of gene (where the numbers would be parameters) < 1361316953 298410 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :128-cycle locks are really hard to win with, on a longish tape you just can't clear before you run out of cycles < 1361316960 816893 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: BF Joust is the kind of thing that looks good for evolving at first sight < 1361316969 920298 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's sort of like evolving real actual programs < 1361316975 656501 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have structure, they store state, they do branching < 1361316977 965706 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1361316992 208479 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just have obscure syntax and happen to work on unreliable memory < 1361316996 137558 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the 128 would be a parameter, which means an evolver could find the actual best cycle length < 1361317005 243404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well, yes < 1361317006 621176 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i was thinking of something more like what quintopia said < 1361317007 152868 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can't reliably 'combine' programs for their best traits < 1361317016 117868 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hardly any BF Joust programs use the tape for computation < 1361317023 10063 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only ones I can think of offhand are waterfall3 and triplock3 < 1361317029 122100 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, no, but there is "state" < 1361317033 534210 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :tweak parameters on winning strategies < 1361317035 575339 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not particularly that it's unreliable, it's just too slow < 1361317037 110817 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just, most people don't think of it as state when they're writing it < 1361317041 139100 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: I've used evolvers for that in the past < 1361317045 227172 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like tripwires and decoys etc. < 1361317049 198749 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but normally I bruteforce instead < 1361317054 822946 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: Arc_Koen < 1361317057 442755 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you could combine them if you came up with some sort of description language for the strategies they use < 1361317060 155589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: hmm < 1361317064 748776 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least tripwires are more like control structures < 1361317068 759903 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the parameterized gene description < 1361317099 833477 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that the hard part in the first place < 1361317100 225665 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway there should totally be BF Joust 3v3 matches < 1361317109 47111 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would that even mean? < 1361317110 382936 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1361317132 74309 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no "move sideways" command < 1361317135 171929 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :bidirectional BF joust melee free-for-alls on a ring tape < 1361317136 587517 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just forwards and backwards < 1361317148 648501 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: hmm < 1361317158 401881 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you "kill" another program? < 1361317161 850005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't work with existing programs, they'd leave their decoys the wrong side of the flag half the time < 1361317166 190492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: set the flag to 0 for two cycles < 1361317167 133221 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1361317167 660386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as usual < 1361317181 390675 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to code for it specifically < 1361317182 117195 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there's just flags scattered throughout the ring < 1361317185 983713 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about k-dimensional bf joust, where your programs have to work on a "tape" of an arbitrary number of dimensions < 1361317198 320898 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then what you do is pit the entire hill against each other simultaneously, in every possible spatial configuration < 1361317199 932782 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are > commands for every direction? < 1361317213 943128 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1361317219 235337 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: more like general commands for moving along which dimension you're operating on I think < 1361317228 80920 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that "dimension tape" wraps or something < 1361317242 894049 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :butbut the problem of dimensionality < 1361317243 633112 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF Joust on a ring seems at least viable as a variant < 1361317251 676971 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd probably find it less interesting than regular 2v2 jousting, though < 1361317252 760265 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck joust < 1361317270 705342 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckfuckfuckjoust for short? < 1361317274 390820 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck derivative joust MOBA < 1361317279 340144 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how does regular 2v2 work? < 1361317306 898503 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bike: MeBFFyBfF Joust, I think < 1361317312 584391 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I meant 1v1 < 1361317316 900195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just said the wrong thing < 1361317318 301338 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has BFF in it < 1361317322 986302 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is brainfuck your friend < 1361317328 715938 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1361317330 189107 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric ::') < 1361317334 713923 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww. < 1361317338 111802 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like elliotts idea for a bfjoust tournament that is exponentially long in the number of players < 1361317350 6458 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for short it should be "Fuck you". just drop the "Joust" < 1361317356 376737 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and also everthing else) < 1361317396 460031 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: wouldn't it be worse than exponential < 1361317463 640186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm… I have a new idea for a noncomputable function < 1361317476 819704 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what is it? < 1361317494 929900 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(n) = the largest value that can be printed by a terminating program of length n < 1361317499 881738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort-of like busy beaver < 1361317508 337563 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but has the benefit that it grows faster than any computable function < 1361317525 600398 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does busy beaver...? < 1361317556 108156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1361317562 803856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which is faster? probably mine < 1361317565 931423 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it noncomputable < 1361317580 255764 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :halting problem. < 1361317581 558241 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar reasons to kolmogorov < 1361317596 517137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: because it's easy to prove that it grows faster than any computable function < 1361317603 927143 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it were computable, that'd cause a contradiction < 1361317613 5145 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't enumerate the set of terminating programs of length n without doing that < 1361317658 621383 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, i feel like you should add in a +1 there < 1361317662 494987 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, duh, terminating, < 1361317670 512655 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need sleep < 1361317683 453936 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: well nonterminating programs don't output values, if you take the traditional mathematical view of them < 1361317693 576959 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i remember seeing this on stackoverflow when i was trying to find an explicit proof of a faster-than-computable function < 1361317694 133552 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the definition would be the same without "terminating" in there, but more confusing < 1361317723 870225 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: 1 - 1/f(n) grows slower than any computable function < 1361317727 567471 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:44:59 it's sort-of like busy beaver < 1361317727 766681 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:45:08 but has the benefit that it grows faster than any computable function < 1361317732 118489 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what did you think the point of busy beaver was... < 1361317741 321357 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shhh we did that already < 1361317745 564632 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: btw, I forget if it was you or someone else who said this but - < 1361317746 838611 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes what Phantom_Hoover said < 1361317748 652567 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: that's still really weird to me < 1361317752 492592 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: the number of cycles that the longest-running terminating program runs for < 1361317753 403322 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's far more mindblowing than growing faster, I think < 1361317757 141769 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, your function basically /is/ busy beaver anyway < 1361317757 580735 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it's the same thing < 1361317772 847395 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it's reasonably equally mindblowing for me < 1361317774 697471 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's not that i didn't see the word "terminating" or something < 1361317781 533273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, I just remembered Hofstadter's number < 1361317783 223411 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :like... there being a speed limit isn't that surprising < 1361317786 294934 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um... slightly confused < 1361317788 302302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's equal to the number of times you thought about Hofstatder's number) < 1361317789 500188 :elliott!elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there being a limit to how /slow/ you can go? < 1361317790 797435 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :he has a number now? < 1361317791 775851 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1361317794 132842 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHy not a function that doesn't grow? < 1361317799 466663 :nooodl!~nooodl@91.177.31.206 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just thinking "there's only a finite amount of length n programs, so just go through all of them and find the largest one!" < 1361317800 939950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: then it doesn't grow < 1361317806 411081 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: slower than any monotonically increasing computable function* < 1361317816 656743 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooodl: determining what a program outputs can be harder than it sounds < 1361317817 940001 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1361317839 26024 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if you can do that and /also/ have it grow without bound < 1361317852 286318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: clearly not < 1361317855 321446 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1361317858 948665 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are bounded monotonically increasing computable functions < 1361317884 292071 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just had a brain bunny about how to use the tape to record how far was poked. HMMMMMM < 1361317897 745261 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really don't have time to explore it :( < 1361317897 949970 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i guess the 'outs' i was considering don't really work < 1361317906 628639 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why i hate analysis < 1361317984 4981 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably impossible anyway < 1361318014 803250 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anybody still play Minecraft? < 1361318022 97752 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i play survivalcraft < 1361318028 685148 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might consider it < 1361318049 816675 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, so what about the min-kolmogorov function, m(x) = the largest value of C(y) for y between 0 and x? isn't that unbounded? < 1361318074 811215 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Tryin' to bring back #esoteric-minecraft . I have a server set up and 1.5 players who aren't me X-D < 1361318146 133413 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the highest complexity class you can get for a language that doesn't create or destroy information? < 1361318157 86676 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC? < 1361318158 345495 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean < 1361318165 166792 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "create"... < 1361318168 481827 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean reversible languages < 1361318177 449509 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cf. that fredkin automaton, some other things < 1361318183 656877 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably reversible languages still create data. < 1361318187 157781 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do mean reverseable < 1361318214 86902 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you give it a list of values at the beginning of the program < 1361318236 551728 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you get them back rearranged (I think) < 1361318244 413046 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont reversible languages create *more* data on average than equally powerful irreversible languages? < 1361318246 233463 :Bike!~Glossina@63-229-134-7.ptld.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a fredkin gate is certainly enough for TC < 1361318281 279703 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the wikipedia article they had wires splitting which breaks the no creaton of information rule < 1361318281 837379 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork, that's so obviously tc i can't be bothered demonstrating that it is < 1361318328 913701 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is obviously turing complete if you have a large list of values that you already know (like a free list) < 1361318358 25502 :doesthiswork!~Adium@75.87.251.5 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1361318381 559412 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also your definition of reversible is not the one the rest of the world uses)