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00:49:36 <HackEgo> Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo alot
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00:59:19 <Sgeo> protip: Hold it down
01:35:35 <coppro> Sgeo: thank you for the protip
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02:39:32 <Sgeo> Here's another qdb but it's all centered around elliottcable's channel
02:39:32 <Sgeo> http://elliottcablechan.tumblr.com/
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02:40:58 <Sgeo> Oh also FireFly
02:41:12 <HackEgo> 15) <FireFly> Meh <FireFly> ._. \ 59) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 861) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
02:41:18 <kmc> `quote shachaf
02:41:19 <HackEgo> 543) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 584) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. \ 618) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's no
02:41:37 <shachaf> Those are pretty awful quotes.
02:41:43 <shachaf> I have some good quotes somewhere!
02:42:09 <HackEgo> 543) <shachaf> elliott: GHC bug? Come on, it's the parentheses. <shachaf> The more parentheses you add, the closer it is to LISP, and therefore the more dynamically-typed. \ 584) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough. \ 618) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's no
02:42:20 <kmc> i went to add this command and then noticed it was already there!
02:42:41 <shachaf> It should randomize rather than grepping.
02:42:47 <shachaf> This way you always get the same quotes.
02:42:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: queegan: not found
02:43:25 <Sgeo> ...it hates me.
02:43:28 <shachaf> `run cp bin/qu{achaf,eegan}; sed -i s/shachaf/kmc/ bin/queegan
02:44:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: queegan: not found
02:44:22 <HackEgo> 602) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 633) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 704) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 707) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
02:44:50 <HackEgo> 707) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people
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03:05:55 <Sgeo> "A tier one investment bank urgently requires a senior c#.net agile developer to join an agile team focused on the delivarance of a key global intiative within the securities / multi assett and client services space. "
03:06:11 <Sgeo> Employers expect resumes to be spell-checked but can put out drivel like that?
03:06:39 <Bike> such is the relation of the oppressor to the oppressed.
03:06:39 <tromp> sorry, but C# is not a tier one esolang
03:07:10 <Sgeo> "Therefore the following skills are a must have to even be conssidered; c#, .net, sql server, agile, tdd, pair programming, leadership, oo and multithreading..."
03:07:27 <Bike> can we topic "a must have to even be conssidered"
03:07:42 <Bike> also, how many ranks do you have to have in leadership? 12?
03:07:47 <Sgeo> I have a feeling whoever wrote that doesn't know what any of those terms mean, even "leadership"
03:08:26 <Sgeo> Oh hey I can post a link that works without needing to be logged in
03:08:26 <Sgeo> http://www.linkedin.com/jobs?viewJob=&jobId=4576873&goback=%2Enmp_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1_*1&trk=rj_nus
03:09:21 <kmc> A++++ would click again
03:09:46 <Bike> "This is a fantastic oppertunity to be a part of a key intiative for a greenfield global project for one of the worlds leading investment banks within a dynamic and cutting edge environment!" do you ever wonder how much of this is just by rote
03:09:54 <kmc> markov chain maybe
03:10:03 <Bike> like they don't really know how to construct a sentence except by tying together set phrases? Moreso than you or me do, I mean.
03:10:05 <Sgeo> They spelled initiative the same way twice
03:12:33 <Bike> i think that's pretty common.
03:12:46 <Bike> i wonder if they have courses on the precise nature of common errors. i'd take 'em
03:13:18 <Bike> " We operate across multiple sectors with specialist expert consultants within each sector who have an in depth understanding of their market place." sgeo, any chance of an interesting job for you, or what?
03:14:08 <kmc> leverage those paradigms
03:14:15 <Sgeo> This isn't the company that contacted me, btw
03:14:44 <Bike> yeah, but the other one sounded about the same. something something recruitment something paradigms something
03:15:02 <Sgeo> I think that other one was recruiting me for a job at a bank
03:15:15 <Sgeo> Not that I'd actually work for the recruiter
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03:15:41 <Bike> it seemed like you would, but eh.
03:16:14 <Sgeo> http://www.jefferies.com/ <-- company that the job opening is for
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04:26:15 <kmc> do you think that all the fundamental kinds of food have already been invented
04:26:30 <kmc> will there ever be another food invention as game changing as the sandwich or the pizza
04:26:34 <kmc> i'm not stoned i swear
04:27:00 <Bike> all futurology is bunk. even when it's pizza-oriented futurology.
04:28:12 <zzo38> I don't know, and I also don't know how to guess.
04:28:24 <kmc> zzo38 is the honest futurologist
04:28:34 <Bike> i can appreciate that. good on ya, zzo.
04:30:08 <shachaf> I hope people will invent proper tasteless nutritious goo one of these days.
04:30:14 <shachaf> Or is there already such a thing?
04:30:28 <pikhq> I don't think we've quite hit bachelor chow yet.
04:31:11 <kmc> now with flavor!
04:34:19 <pikhq> I'd imagine the next game-changing food, if any, will come somewhere you least expect.
04:34:48 <pikhq> Something like animals genetically engineered to be delicious and 100% edible sans preperation.
04:35:24 <zzo38> If you don't expect it, then how can you expect it?
04:35:27 <kmc> or vat-grown meat that isn't disgusting
04:35:44 <kmc> i mean there have been many recent advances in processing and packaging and such
04:35:52 <kmc> but i'm thinking of something somewhat different
04:36:00 <Bike> I don't think animals that cooked themselves alive would be very practical.
04:36:01 <kmc> a fundamentally new genre of food
04:36:02 <pikhq> Things I actually expect: vat-grown meat, and high-level irradiation.
04:36:22 <pikhq> It is utterly feasible to have shelf-stable meat.
04:36:31 <pikhq> However, the irradiation necessary is illegal unless you're NASA.
04:36:47 <kmc> maybe those molecular gastronomists will discover something with mass appeal eventually
04:37:20 * pikhq wants shelf-stable sushi.
04:38:19 <shachaf> I don't think sushi made out of horses would be very popular.
04:38:40 <pikhq> Horse sashimi is a thing.
04:38:51 <zzo38> Eat people who are in the "food jail".
04:39:07 <shachaf> zzo38: What is the "food jail"?
04:39:21 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know; that is why it is quotation marks.
04:39:57 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Horse-meat.jpg Japan, ladies and gentlemen.
04:40:10 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> Eat people who are in the "food jail".
04:40:14 <HackEgo> 927) <zzo38> Eat people who are in the "food jail".
04:40:28 <Bike> looks pretty good.
04:40:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.11716
04:41:40 <Bike> pacific northwest tree octopus continues to be the best animal
04:45:28 <shachaf> zzo38: You say the best things.
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04:46:46 <zzo38> I am not the only one who says things; a lot of people do. But yes, I do too. It is you can write quotation of me and of other people too, they do that all the time.
04:47:07 <Bike_> `pastequotes itidus20
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04:47:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25573
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04:49:40 <Bike> <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory" <-- the guy's got a point
04:49:45 <Bike> did he get banned, or just evaporate?
04:50:22 <shachaf> I don't think he got banned.
04:50:30 <shachaf> How does getting banned from #esoteric work?
04:50:54 <Bike> I gather you have to be elliott? I'm not sure.
04:52:07 <shachaf> Bike: Were you even around while itidus21 was around?
04:52:21 <Bike> No, that's why I'm asking.
04:52:51 <Bike> If I'm not familiar with all of the channel's mythology, it will be me on the pyre come next equinox. And I'd rather avoid that.
04:58:37 <zzo38> Maybe we could make up "Esoteric IRC Quotation Guessing Quiz" on Internet Quiz Engine.
04:59:10 <zzo38> (It doesn't have to be entirely the HackEgo quotations file)
05:00:58 <zzo38> (Anyways, there is a limit of 210 question slots (a time limit takes up four slots).)
05:16:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Why not remove the limit?
05:17:53 <zzo38> shachaf: To avoid buffer overflow, I don't remove the limit, however, I might increase it in another time, but I also might not.
05:19:33 <shachaf> Can't you increase it dynamically?
05:19:47 <zzo38> The limit is not actually part of Internet Quiz Engine; it is actually a limit in the gopher server, but I can increase that easily. However, I don't want to increase it too much. Also, it takes up space of environment variable too.
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05:27:45 <zzo38> How long do you want it?
05:28:49 <shachaf> Can't you increase it dynamically?
05:28:57 <shachaf> Anyway I don't use Gopher, so I can't use it.
05:29:08 <zzo38> I don't want to increase it dynamically!
05:29:51 <zzo38> I don't want any buffer overflow and computer overflow.
05:30:28 <shachaf> Computer overflow? That sounds dangerous.
05:34:36 * quintopia hands zzo38 the philosopher's stone
05:35:23 <shachaf> zzo38: I want 1048576 items.
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05:53:13 <kmc> python's 'for..else' is nice, but i wonder if it's one of those features which is obscure enough that code using it is automatically obfuscated
05:53:24 <Bike> how's it work?
05:55:32 <kmc> for n in range(2, 100):
05:55:32 <kmc> for d in range(2, n):
05:55:32 <kmc> if not n % d: break
05:55:32 <kmc> print n, 'is a prime number'
05:56:02 <kmc> the stuff in the 'else' block only runs if the 'for' block ran to exhaustion, but not if it executed 'break'
05:56:22 <Bike> why is it "else", then...
05:56:50 <shachaf> "else" means "if you didn't break"?
05:57:46 <evincar> It should be "if the block was never evaluated". :(
05:57:50 <Bike> reminds me that i should try to figure out how the hell good primality tests work
05:58:08 <evincar> Wrote a language once where "if", "while", "for", etc. returned booleans for just that reason.
05:58:12 <Bike> apparently you need to actually know math :(
05:59:22 <kmc> evincar: oh, that's neat
05:59:48 <shachaf> And else was just a thing that used the boolean result of the previous expression?
06:05:50 <Bike> https://bitbucket.org/kxz/omnipresence/src/ebcd9e54aed61025ff7778909b4a67485b26743d/omnipresence/__init__.py?at=default#cl-156 Seems pretty reasonable to me, kmc, though that might only be because i just had it explained.
06:18:39 <evincar> shachaf: Yeah, same with elsif.
06:18:59 <evincar> The whole thing was done as an operator precedence parser though...
06:19:10 <evincar> ...in C++ before I really understood parsers.
06:21:38 <kmc> the meaning of 'for .. else' is not that easy to figure out if you haven't seen it
06:22:03 <Bike> guess that's why there's a comment
06:22:15 <shachaf> It seems intuitively like it should be what evincar said.
06:22:29 <shachaf> There's no real analogy to if-else here, is there?
06:22:58 <evincar> Nope, but the real question is what a better keyword would be.
06:23:00 <kmc> i'm having trouble comingc up with one
06:23:09 <kmc> i,i 'finally'
06:23:47 <evincar> But "finally" implies "always" because exceptions.
06:25:20 <shachaf> Using a keyword for something because it's already a reserved word in the syntax is a time-honored tradition.
06:26:32 <Bike> also if i was doing that, i think i'd have the break in the for return from a lexical block, and have the "else" code just after the foor in the same block. but that's probably not remotely idiomatic python.
06:27:52 <evincar> Does Python have a thing for blocks?
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06:28:29 <Bike> I think you could hack it with a lambda expression and "return", but that puts us squarely in wildly unidiomatic territory.
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06:30:28 <kmc> shachaf: it's a tradition in C++ for sure
06:30:30 <kmc> don't know about Python
06:30:45 <kmc> but then C++ went and added a few new keywords that aren't in C and are almost never used
06:30:48 <kmc> just because they could
06:31:14 <shachaf> kmc: new is used pretty often.
06:31:16 <Bike> it's good to be a coder, man.
06:31:22 <kmc> ;P shachaf
06:31:46 <Bike> also, kmc, i don't know if you still care about kernel but i see what you mean about the thesis.
06:32:10 <Bike> Heuristically, the profundity of a truth is proportional to how difficult it was to discover the first time, divided by how obvious it is once successfully explained. While some truths only have to be uncovered to become obvious, others may have a lucid explanation that is even more difficult to find that the truth itself was. If there exists a lucid explanation, the difficulty of finding it should be counted in the numerator of the heuristic.
06:32:16 <kmc> oh wow they actually removed the 'export' keyword in C++11??
06:32:17 <Bike> totally relevant.
06:32:24 <kmc> because basically nobody even implemented it
06:32:37 <kmc> but maybe it's still a reserved word?
06:32:38 <Bike> what did it do?
06:33:06 <Bike> "The export keyword is a bit like the Higgs boson of C++. Theoretically it exists, it is described by the standard, and noone has seen it in the wild." or, not do.
06:33:30 <kmc> separate compilation for templates
06:34:35 <pikhq> IIRC precisely one vendor implemented it.
06:39:57 <kmc> haha nice disclaimer: http://software.intel.com/sites/default/files/m/0/1/3/opt-notice-en_080411.gif
06:40:08 <kmc> i guess they added this after the controversy
06:40:21 <kmc> where somebody discovered that icc basically treats every AMD chip as a 386 in terms of code generation
06:48:16 <pikhq> Seems fairly anticompetitive.
06:48:38 <pikhq> In the "seriously, we've broken companies into several bits for this shit before" sense.
06:49:31 <Bike> have we? i'm not sure there's an applicable precedent...
06:49:42 <kmc> intel doesn't have a monopoly either on chips or on compilers
06:49:50 <kmc> they aren't abusing monopoly power
06:50:24 <kmc> in general there is no obligation to make your products work nicely with competitors'
06:50:46 <coppro> while that's true, there is an obligation not to sabotage interoperability
06:50:51 <kmc> is there? legally?
06:50:57 <coppro> in most countries, yes
06:51:00 <kmc> interesting
06:51:08 <pikhq> They've been on the receiving end of antitrust suits before, actually...
06:52:30 <Bike> well icc still does emit working code for amd, right?
06:53:01 <kmc> got to sleep, ttyl all
06:53:03 <Bike> i guess the thing i'm wondering is if there's a precedent for making a thing that works well with your own thing and not well with the other people's thing being a bad thing.
06:53:30 <pikhq> However, in that case it's strictly inferior to any compiler you can find out there, TCC included.
06:53:52 <pikhq> Outside of antitrust suits, probably not.
06:54:14 <Bike> What's the precedent in antitrust suits?
06:54:33 <pikhq> Given that doing this outside of that context is about as intelligent as taking out your profits in cash and spreading them through Central Park.
06:55:40 <evincar> Bike: Programming languages that can't interop with other languages tend to be unpopular...
06:55:49 <evincar> ...if unpopular = bad, then there's one.
06:55:56 <pikhq> evincar: He was asking for legal precedent I think.
06:56:25 <pikhq> And there's no legal precedent for that, for similar reasons why there's not legal precedent for the badness of jamming a finger in your eye.
06:56:53 <Bike> Well hey, the purpose of case law is to riddle out the supposedly obvious, yeah?
06:57:05 <pikhq> Unless you approach a monopoly you wouldn't even *want to* do this.
06:57:38 <pikhq> As it'd be making an inferior product.
06:59:37 <shachaf> evincar: I should implement a type checker, eh?
07:00:10 <Bike> Does anyone know the name of the character that's an F but backwards? This is going to bother me.
07:00:20 <shachaf> Bike: http://shapecatcher.com/ ?
07:00:32 <Bike> I'm knee-deep in Phoenician and I believe I have taken a wrong term.
07:00:33 <shachaf> Latin epigraphic letter reversed f: ꟻ
07:00:42 <shachaf> Canadian syllabics blackfoot wa: ᖷ
07:00:56 <shachaf> Bike: It's totally a Neverhood tile, too!
07:00:57 <Bike> That's a neat thing.
07:01:00 <shachaf> Remember the bridge puzzle?
07:01:07 <Bike> I never played that game, unfortunately.
07:01:30 <Bike> Oh, it's in Greek music, cool.
07:01:52 <Bike> Maybe I should just accept that reading metamathematics papers by a linguistics nerd was a bad idea.
07:02:24 <evincar> shachaf: Everybody should implement a type checker, eh.
07:04:14 <evincar> Oh...haven't implemented a typechecker.
07:04:34 <evincar> I spent a full minute puzzling over why you would say you hadn't brought up something you had.
07:05:33 <shachaf> Well, you brought it up, actually.
07:05:55 <shachaf> But it's the type checker I hadn't implemented.
07:07:44 <evincar> I have no idea what we're talking about but will roll with it nonetheless.
07:07:59 <evincar> What kind of language is it that you haven't implemented a typechecker for?
07:09:36 <evincar> Okay, but did you have one in mind?
07:18:27 <zzo38> Is there a limit for environment variables length?
07:21:16 <lambdabot> Local time for zzo38 is 2013/01/22 23:14:25 -0800
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07:25:32 <zzo38> I have increase the number of questions slots to 999, which should be sufficient; although there are limits for questions, choices, and number of variables to keep track of, even the old limits are much higher than other online quizzes.
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07:26:03 <zzo38> (You can also download it into your own computer if you prefer it.)
07:27:17 <zzo38> If you want that much, run it on your own computer.
07:27:34 <shachaf> What if I don't have a computer?
07:27:40 <zzo38> It is fully free-software/open-source-software and is written in C.
07:27:50 <zzo38> If you don't have a computer, then don't write the message on the IRC, please.
07:28:11 <shachaf> What if my computer doesn't have 1048576 units of RAM?
07:28:11 <Bike> I think that's a burn, shachaf.
07:30:13 <zzo38> The program never allocates that much RAM, but the environment variables have to support whatever you are using.
07:30:44 <Bike> I have to say, I have no idea how environment variables are involved in a Gopher-based internet quiz program, but then I don't know much about Gopher or quizzes.
07:31:03 <shachaf> Bike: You should learn Haskell!
07:31:18 <Bike> How is it fun?
07:31:20 <shachaf> You'll understand all the crazy things crazy people say in here much better.
07:31:30 <Bike> Computer science is an eternal parade of sorrow.
07:31:33 <evincar> I've been away for too long.
07:31:52 <Bike> evincar: If it helps, apparently it's not working, because I still don't know Haskell.
07:32:01 <Bike> Or Lens. Or Caleskell, or Agda. Or Clojure.
07:32:08 <zzo38> My server also has a file size limit of one million bytes, so you also have to run the program on your own computer if you want to write hundreds of long pages of text on the quiz.
07:32:11 <evincar> Now my JOB is to write Haskell.
07:32:20 <evincar> This channel has seriously fucked up my life.
07:32:24 <Bike> Having a job doesn't seem like a bad outcome, honestly.
07:32:32 <shachaf> evincar: Bike was asking questions about implementation details of GHC.
07:32:48 <Bike> Yeah, but that's actually because I was wondering about the term "static typing".
07:33:04 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, learn of Haskell, and of the mathematics, and so on, to know what some of our questions are.
07:33:08 <Bike> I'm in this strange place where I know what "sum type" means but don't actually use any ML-family language regularly.
07:33:41 <Bike> Am I being punked?
07:33:44 <shachaf> Bike: It's "pretty cool imo, honestly".
07:34:18 <evincar> Haskell made me forget how to program kinda.
07:34:20 <zzo38> Yes, there is the sum type, product type, exponent type, and sometime we even try to think of logarithm type and so on but perhaps there is none of that. But, there is the derivative of type, though!
07:34:24 <Bike> yes, i know haskell is cool, i just don't want to bother setting up an environment and learning what libraries to use and bla bla bla when I hardly program anyway and I can just sit in my hovel reading books.
07:34:31 <Bike> What is the derivative of type, zzo38.
07:34:35 <evincar> I went to write some C++ and realised I hadn't done, like, IO.
07:34:47 <shachaf> Bike: I tried to explain it to you once, but you got bored.
07:34:54 <shachaf> Bike: It's the thing with the holes.
07:34:58 <shachaf> It's not quite a zipper, but it's related.
07:35:01 <zzo38> Bike: It is the same like derivative of numbers, but in some cases you can't due to no predecessor types and that stuff
07:35:15 <Bike> Since when do numbers have derivatives?
07:35:16 <shachaf> Bike: You don't really need to learn libraries to benefit from Haskell, though.
07:36:34 <evincar> But the libraries are so nice.
07:37:06 <evincar> Hackage is no CPAN, but it is good.
07:37:50 <Bike> sorry, that was supposed to imply "how do i benefit from haskell if i can't write using libraries"
07:38:31 <shachaf> You benefit by it, like, changing the way you think and stuff, man!!
07:38:37 <evincar> If there aren't bindings for some library you like, you can make them.
07:39:01 <Bike> I think I already got that, shachaf. I have a copy of TAPL and a couple papers I don't understand downloaded.
07:39:16 <Bike> Plus the answers to my questions about how call/cc works in haskell and bla bla bla.
07:39:32 <shachaf> Anyway, your way of thinking hasn't yet been changed.
07:39:37 <Bike> It's "pretty cool, imo"
07:39:47 <Bike> How can you tell, shachaf?
07:40:11 <Bike> I bet it's because I wrote the Scheme name for call/cc instead of making a convoluted joke involving Oleg.
07:40:16 <zzo38> Actually call/cc works in Haskell is like Peirce's law of classical logic.
07:40:43 <Bike> yeah, i don't get the types-logic correspondence, honestly.
07:40:56 <Bike> i'm kind of ok with that because I'm shitty at logic anyhow.
07:41:06 <Bike> and nothing i want to do academically is that related to it.
07:41:27 <evincar> Like "oh hey, I can look at this function's type and know that there is no possible implementation of it which is total".
07:41:30 <Bike> But I'm just a dumb kid anyway. What do I know.
07:41:31 <evincar> "This type is a lying fucker."
07:41:50 <Bike> What would such a type be?
07:42:01 <zzo38> It is with intuitionistic logic, and then if you use continuations, make classical logic.
07:42:07 <evincar> Like, say, head :: [a] -> a
07:42:08 <lambdabot> kmc says: i don't expect that the "write code that doesn't suck pattern" can ever be made into a library
07:42:15 <lambdabot> kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard! Proving things in the type system. We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥."
07:42:36 <zzo38> Such as () -> Zero if () is a unit type and Zero is uninhabited type.
07:42:39 <Bike> Ints are nice. It's nice to know that they exist.
07:42:47 <evincar> Which is the same as ([a] or []) implies a, which is clearly false
07:43:08 <Bike> So, I know that a function that can't return a value can't return a value?
07:43:23 <evincar> Sure, so it has to throw an exception or something.
07:43:56 <zzo38> But it is also, using function type as exponents, pairs as products, Either as sums, even so id :: Zero -> Zero just as zero to the power of zero equals one.
07:44:18 <Bike> 0^0 doesn't always equal one... what kind of heresies does Haskell teach!!
07:44:51 <zzo38> I know some say it doesn't, but in many cases, I see, I think that certainly 0^0=1 is correct.
07:45:30 <Bike> "only sometimes"
07:45:37 <Bike> but whatever that's not very serious of me
07:45:51 <zzo38> (The TI-92 calculator will make 0^0=1 but will display a warning)
07:45:55 <shachaf> Bike: I used to be a disbeliever.
07:46:04 <Bike> In what, exponents/
07:46:05 <evincar> Also given a function type I'm pretty sure you can recursively enumerate possible implementations of that function.
07:46:28 <zzo38> evincar: I think I once wrote that for some cases.
07:46:34 <evincar> I know there's a Haskell thing that will generate *some* implementation given a type.
07:46:45 <Bike> Isn't there a lambdabot function for that?
07:46:49 <shachaf> (Nat -> Bool) has uncountably many inhabitants!!
07:46:50 <Bike> It has a ridiculous name
07:47:04 <zzo38> No, I mean that for some function types, makes a list of all function of that type.
07:47:22 <Sgeo> @djinn a -> [a]
07:47:23 <Bike> Yeah, that one.
07:47:27 <Bike> Thanks lambdabot.
07:47:29 <Sgeo> @djinn a -> (a,a)
07:47:45 <Sgeo> @djinn [a] -> a
07:47:52 <Sgeo> @djinn Maybe a -> a
07:47:56 <Bike> @djinn () -> Botton
07:48:03 <Bike> bottom. well, whatever
07:48:10 <Bike> @djinn Maybe a -> List a
07:48:15 <lambdabot> data Either a b = Left a | Right b
07:48:19 <lambdabot> class Monad m where return :: a -> m a; (>>=) :: m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
07:48:21 <lambdabot> class Eq a where (==) :: a -> a -> Bool
07:48:23 <lambdabot> data Cont r a = Cont ((a -> r) -> r)
07:48:26 <shachaf> Bike: Lists are very boring from the perspective of Djinn.
07:48:35 <Bike> I'm sorry you feel that way, djinn.
07:48:55 <evincar> All this talk of djinn and all I have is vodka.
07:49:06 <Sgeo> There's no Y combinator for types, is there?
07:49:09 <Bike> anyway i'm not a disbeliever. I just don't care that much, is all.
07:49:29 <Bike> Sgeo: that would require a type that is also a kind, and so on, no?
07:49:59 <evincar> It would require a TC typechecker to evaluate a type-expression to a fixed point, obviously.
07:50:03 <Sgeo> No idea, I just want to know if it's possible to encode the type of a list in djinn, and since I don't think the type in question can be named
07:50:29 <evincar> I like being in a channel where that is "obviously".
07:51:02 <Bike> I do like watching people talk about neat things.
07:51:19 <shachaf> What do you mean by Y combinator?
07:51:35 <shachaf> Specifically the implementation of Y, or just any fixed-point combinator?
07:51:59 <Deewiant> newtype Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f))
07:52:00 <shachaf> What's wrong with newtype Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f))?
07:52:46 <Sgeo> My only goal is to get djinn to understand types. Naming a new type doesn't help with that as far as I see
07:53:02 <Bike> I'm pretty sure djinn understands types better than most humans.
07:53:05 <shachaf> @djinn-add newtype Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f))
07:53:09 <shachaf> @djinn-add data Fix f = Fix (f (Fix f))
07:53:09 <lambdabot> Error: Recursive types are not allowed: Fix
07:53:34 <Sgeo> I take it that's a no-go on the List thing then
07:53:48 <shachaf> Recursive types are boring from Djinn's perspective.
07:53:55 <Sgeo> @djinn-add data List a = Nil | (a, List a)
07:54:06 <shachaf> That's broken syntax anyway.
07:54:06 <zzo38> Do they support quantified types?
07:54:09 <Bike> Djinn's kind of picky, isn't it.
07:54:15 <shachaf> But you should give up now because it's pointless.
07:54:26 <Sgeo> @djinn-add data List a = Nil | List (a, List a)
07:54:26 <lambdabot> Error: Recursive types are not allowed: List
07:54:36 <shachaf> Bike: A Haskell compiler also wouldn't accept that, because it's invalid syntax.
07:54:45 <evincar> Does Djinn always choose the least implementation?
07:54:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Quantified as in rank-2?
07:54:50 <evincar> For some ordering on implementations.
07:54:51 <Bike> Syntax is boring from my perspective, amirite
07:54:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, and rank-N
07:54:57 <shachaf> evincar: It tries to use as many variables as it can.
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07:56:00 <shachaf> What Djinn does is impossible for rank-2 types.
07:56:11 <shachaf> And EVEN MORE IMPOSSIBLE for rank-n types.
07:56:16 <Bike> So, in other news. This paper has an appendix about the choice of Greek letter in its notation. I am going to print it out and burn it.
07:56:52 <Bike> They're not easy.
07:56:54 <zzo38> Why do you want to waste the paper and ink on that?
07:56:55 <Bike> TeX source is included.
07:57:27 <evincar> Are we not human? Do we not enjoy the visceral appeal of burning stuff we don't like?
07:57:42 <Bike> zzo38, because I am superstitious, and strongly believe that if I don't cleanse myself of this taint, I may be infected, and start considering using Tengwar.
07:58:07 <zzo38> I think you should not waste it.
07:58:27 <Bike> ok. i will use a proxy.
07:58:36 <evincar> Soon: < Bike> Hey all, I'm looking for a good Tengwar font for programming.
07:58:44 <zzo38> I also think it should not be wasted in general.
07:58:48 <Bike> Iti's a serious risk, man!
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07:59:06 <Bike> zzo38, to be honest, I live in the woods and am sick of trees, so I'm not too sympathetic to paper.
07:59:11 <Bike> I can see its parents watching me.
07:59:13 <Sgeo> I remember having a video of someone burning a page of Circe's code
07:59:27 <zzo38> I think you should not destroy the environment, solar system, and universe, in order to save humanity. Other way around is a bit better, though.
07:59:42 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:59:42 <zzo38> If you are sick of trees, get out of the woods please.
07:59:56 <Bike> I'd like to. But life is hard. We don't always get what we ant.
08:00:06 <Bike> Though I don't have my ant army either.
08:01:04 <evincar> At work we used to have a bunch of build scripts written using Ant.
08:01:13 <Bike> I mean real ants!
08:01:15 <Bike> Fucking programmers.
08:01:22 <evincar> You almost NEVER get what you ant.
08:01:39 <shachaf> Bike: would you BE QUIET and let evincar make his puns
08:01:52 <Bike> ^rot13 fuckpuns
08:03:06 <Sgeo> Oh hey Newspeak is on Newspeak3
08:03:50 <evincar> I feel silly for not heretofore having noticed what "shachaf" is.
08:03:56 <fizzie> "Evira" is the Finnish Food Safety Authority ("Elintarviketurvallisuusvirasto").
08:04:23 <Bike> I thought "shachaf" was a Hebrew name, and "funpuns" is a coincidence.
08:04:42 <shachaf> evincar: You mean, other than my given name?
08:05:00 <shachaf> ttmrichter: I heard you should learn Haskell.
08:05:07 <shachaf> Unless you already know Haskell?
08:05:08 <evincar> I thought it was "Shacha F.", highly respected Ukrainian drug dealer by day, hacker by night.
08:05:11 <myndzi> much more interesting than just 'backwards'
08:05:12 <shachaf> Then you should learn it again.
08:05:24 <shachaf> ttmrichter: Then you should learn lens.
08:05:26 <Bike> Isn't that transliterated as "Sasha"?
08:05:27 <ttmrichter> I even have a credit in Real World Haskell. :)
08:05:45 <shachaf> ttmrichter: I recognize your nick but I'm not sure where from.
08:05:56 <ttmrichter> From a recent anti-Haskell rant, probably. :D
08:06:05 <Bike> Wow, you're in a lot of channels.
08:06:17 <zzo38> But do you know of the monad, comonad, Kleisli category, Kan extensions, Cartesian closed category, ...
08:06:32 <Bike> It's important that you know of Kan extensions.
08:06:42 <shachaf> OK, this won't be productive.
08:07:36 <shachaf> evincar: Why did you invite a troll to this channel?
08:08:09 <shachaf> We're more about the crackpots.
08:08:21 <evincar> shachaf: We had a nice conversation about garbage collectors and I am a hospitable person.
08:09:34 <Bike> Merrier in the limit?
08:09:37 <evincar> Merriment increases asymptotically with morement, but it may not be observable for some values of n.
08:10:57 <Bike> Maybe that's how Heaven works. It just keeps getting more people since the world is endless, and the dead grow more and more joyful, eventually becoming one with God and happiness after eternity.
08:11:08 -!- ttmrichter has left ("Leave").
08:11:31 <Bike> Does that mean that this is hell? :(
08:11:55 <zzo38> The biggest greed is wanting an afterlife.
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08:12:38 <zzo38> The biggest greed is wanting an afterlife and take everything with you.
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08:14:34 <Bike> everything i touch dies.....
08:19:25 <Bike> http://www.genomicron.evolverzone.com/wp-content/uploads/Fig1.jpg
08:22:16 <fizzie> "Fig. 1. A fascinating picture." (Figure caption from some maths journal on the "recent issues" desk in the library.)
08:23:02 <fizzie> (The contents were, IIRC, some kind of a graph. It didn't make any special sense to me.)
08:23:56 <Bike> How to set the switches on this thing. Dayan, P. (2012). Current Opinion in Neurobiology, 22(6), 1074–1068.
08:26:41 <shachaf> Perhaps ttmrichter isn't always a troll.
08:27:39 <Bike> what's your prior experience?
08:28:37 <shachaf> I think http://www.txt.io/t-2kv5h is the post they referred to.
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08:30:51 <Bike> i was hoping for, like, something about Haskell, at least.
08:32:15 <shachaf> «PayPal once rejected a candidate who aced all the engineering tests because for fun, the guy said that he liked to play hoops. That single sentence lost him the job. No PayPal people would ever have used the world “hoops.” Probably no one even knew how to play “hoops.” Basketball would be bad enough. But “hoops?” That guy clearly wouldn’t have fit in. He’d have had to explain to the team why he was going to go play hoops on ...
08:32:21 <shachaf> ... a Thursday night. And no one would have understood him.»
08:34:30 <Bike> paypal's ceo is the one that was making an offshore libertarian utopia, right?
08:34:56 <shachaf> «PayPal also had a hard time hiring women. An outsider might think that the PayPal guys bought into the stereotype that women don’t do CS. But that’s not true at all. The truth is that PayPal had trouble hiring women because PayPal was just a bunch of nerds! They never talked to women. So how were they supposed to interact with and hire them?»
08:35:23 <Bike> fuckin' nerds, maaaaan
08:36:47 <shachaf> «One good hiring maxim is: whenever there’s any doubt, there’s no doubt. It’s a good heuristic. More often than not, any doubt precluded a hire. But once this very impressive woman came to interview. There were some doubts, since she seemed reluctant to solve a coding problem. But her talk and demeanor—she insisted on being interviewed over a ping-pong game, for instance—indicated that she’d fit into the ubernerd, ubercoder ...
08:36:53 <shachaf> ... culture. She turned out to be reasonably good at ping-pong. Doubts were suppressed. That was a mistake. She turned out to not know how to code. She was a competent manager but a cultural outsider. PayPal was a place where the younger engineers could and would sometimes wrestle with each other on the floor to solve disputes! If you didn’t get the odd mix of nerdiness + alpha maleness, you just stuck out.»
08:36:59 <shachaf> sounds like a great place to work
08:37:38 <Bike> So, um, are all these quotes supposed to be positive about PayPal?
08:37:47 <evincar> Because they really don't come off that way.
08:37:58 <Bike> I'm... kind of confused about the level of sarcasm, here.
08:38:12 <Fiora> .... wrestle... on the floor?
08:38:38 <shachaf> Bike: You're just mad you're not ubernerd and/or alphamale enough for PayPal.
08:38:47 <Bike> No, really, is this PayPal saying this?
08:38:50 <evincar> Now I like a good wrestle, but...
08:38:55 <shachaf> http://blakemasters.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-5-notes-essay
08:38:59 <Bike> I only wrestle if mud is provided.
08:39:05 <Fiora> this sounds like a wonderful way to make good code
08:39:16 <Fiora> if there's a technical decision, pff, /discussing/ it? that's for /girls/
08:39:29 <Fiora> real men *wrestle* in their code reviews
08:39:37 <Bike> Oh, a ttrpg tagline. k
08:39:52 <evincar> Well, your code can't fight for itself.
08:39:56 <evincar> You have to stand up for it.
08:40:14 <Bike> " It turned out that scaling up would be very challenging for PayPal because the 26 year-olds who were managing hundreds of thousands of credit cards didn’t make all the optimal choices from the beginning. "
08:40:40 <Bike> But well. Not sarcastic at all. Wow.
08:41:09 <shachaf> Maybe these quotes are just made up.
08:41:48 <Bike> ok, so the paypal cofounder involved in John Galt bullshit is someone else, at least.
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09:06:53 <evincar> I seem to have lost the ability to sleep.
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10:06:03 <shachaf> oerjan: why is ε afraid of ζ?
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11:50:06 <oerjan> shachaf: you realize ζ and θ would work better with the actual alphabet order? or is that part of the joke.
11:52:46 * oerjan swats himself -----###
11:53:14 <ais523> I don't quite think that joke works, which is strange because it's exactly analogous to the same joke with numbers
11:53:20 * oerjan then sics 7 on shachaf
11:53:28 <shachaf> ais523: Why doesn't it work?
11:53:39 <shachaf> (Maybe it only works in American.)
11:53:47 <ais523> yeah, it does, but I translated it to American
11:53:52 <ais523> I think the problem is the extra article
11:54:07 <oerjan> i thought that was just a heavy greek accent
11:54:12 <ais523> you think of the letters as types of things, rather than as individual things, because thetas have to be countable
11:54:14 <shachaf> I think the article is fine.
11:54:18 <ais523> otherwise the grammar is worng
11:54:24 <shachaf> "a theta" sounds OK to me.
11:54:25 <ais523> this makes them rather harder to anthropomorphise
11:54:52 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, but the joke doesn't work, because why would an epsilon care that a theta has been eaten? it's not a theta itself
11:55:00 <oerjan> yeah humans are hard to anthropomorphise because there is more than one of them
11:55:07 <ais523> sure, it's a /letter/, but it doesn't generalize well
11:55:12 <shachaf> ais523: Well, sure, but it's a letter.
11:55:20 <ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise
11:55:44 <ais523> whereas with the number version of the joke, the fact that it's just "9" that's been eaten makes it sound like a proper noun
11:55:51 <ais523> and so 6 could reasonably fear that it was next
11:55:57 <shachaf> When did ε decide to stop being a Scientologist?
11:56:01 <ais523> because they sound like they're both names for the same sorts of things
11:56:08 <oerjan> maybe epsilon just isn't a letterist, and so is fully capable of empathy with thetas
11:56:28 <oerjan> also he's clearly the last remaining epsilon
11:57:11 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise
11:57:17 <HackEgo> 928) <ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise
11:57:24 <ais523> they're human already!
11:57:31 <oerjan> i think that works best with no context
11:57:36 <fizzie> I plugged in a USB headset, but had to reboot in order for it to show up in Gnome sound settings as an output option (as opposed to just existing in the "hardware" tab). :/
11:57:54 <shachaf> ais523: Perhaps you don't think it works because you're unfamiliar with ζ.
11:58:00 <ais523> fizzie: perhaps restarting the appropriate daemon would have worked
11:58:45 <shachaf> ζ is like a monster, and the rest of the Greek alphabet is like Tokyo.
11:59:40 <oerjan> or maybe he's L Ron Hubbard
12:00:20 <shachaf> Is #esoteric going to be sued now?
12:01:06 <oerjan> shachaf: we'll be sued for accidentaly making up part of their copyrighted books
12:01:07 <shachaf> 03:56 <shachaf> A: When ζηθn.
12:01:59 <shachaf> Fiora: Shouldn't you be asleep?
12:03:18 <HackEgo> bin/addquote \ bin/allquotes \ bin/delquote \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/quoerjan \ bin/quote \ bin/quotes
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12:03:44 <HackEgo> bin/addquote \ bin/allquotes \ bin/delquote \ bin/pastaquote \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/quachaf \ bin/queegan \ bin/quoerjan \ bin/quørjan \ bin/quote \ bin/quotes
12:03:49 <shachaf> We could define addquoerjan, allquoerjan, delquoerjan, pastaquoerjan, etc.
12:05:33 <HackEgo> allquotes | grep oerjan | shuf
12:06:03 <shachaf> Is there seriously no command for "random quote containing $1"?
12:06:14 <Jafet> You need to make a FUSE filesystem for this and mount it on /bin.
12:06:21 <oerjan> that was what i was wondering, in fact
12:06:28 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
12:07:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
12:07:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
12:07:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
12:08:05 <HackEgo> 30) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 70) [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :( \ 71) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 79) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystif
12:08:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec quote pasta
12:09:07 <shachaf> At least they were considerate enough to leave a tail call.
12:10:33 <Jafet> Scientologists are real
12:10:36 <Fiora> shachaf: um, I slept for like 5 hours. and then I saw the Ni no Kuni box on my desk
12:11:50 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
12:12:19 <shachaf> Apparently it's a Japanese computer game.
12:12:21 <Fiora> @google wikipedia Ni no Kuni
12:12:23 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_no_Kuni
12:12:23 <lambdabot> Title: Ni no Kuni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
12:12:43 <Fiora> it's a game by Level 5 that just came out in US
12:12:49 <shachaf> Should I read _Death Note_, speaking of Japenese things?
12:12:50 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/pasta/"pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle"/' bin/pastaquote
12:12:54 <shachaf> My sister said I should read it.
12:12:55 <Fiora> it's kind of what you'd get if Dragon Quest and Studio Ghibli had babies
12:13:08 <Fiora> ummm Death Note is pretty good, I've only seen the anime though
12:13:16 <shachaf> oerjan: That's some serious spaghetti code.
12:13:18 <Fiora> I haven't heard anyone say the manga was /worse/ though, so :p
12:13:22 <shachaf> I ordered it, but Japanese is hard.
12:13:29 <oerjan> `quote pasta|spaghetti|macaroni|maccheroni|ravioli|fusilli|tortellini|noodle|tagliatelle
12:13:31 <shachaf> So I haven't read beyond the first page.
12:13:33 <Fiora> gosh, it's translated :P
12:13:42 <Fiora> unless you're doing this as language learning exercise
12:13:43 <shachaf> That would be, like, cheating.
12:13:56 <Fiora> for that you might want to start with something for a younger audience, like some shonen that has furigana
12:14:19 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 16) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 19) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird
12:14:24 <Fiora> then that should work !
12:14:26 <shachaf> Are you able of reading Japanese?
12:14:42 <oerjan> shachaf: something tells me we don't discuss pasta much here
12:14:44 <Jafet> I don't think I would read the first page of shonen.
12:15:02 <lambdabot> lambdabot says: < donri> @where hpaste-dns < lambdabot> I know nothing about hpasta-dns.
12:15:19 <lambdabot> sebazzz says: <elpolilla> y venden bulks y esas mierdas <sebazzz> bulks llenos de pastabase
12:15:22 <lambdabot> lambdabot says: < donri> @where hpaste-dns < lambdabot> I know nothing about hpasta-dns.
12:15:23 <Fiora> the most I know is roughly how to read kana, beyond that I'm pretty clueless
12:15:46 <shachaf> I only know the hiragana, sort of.
12:16:10 <oerjan> shachaf: your sister is just trying to get away from the curse she got by reading Death Note by passing it on to you. hth.
12:16:12 <shachaf> And I don't even really know those, because it was a while ago.
12:16:29 <shachaf> oerjan: It's OK, I'll just pass it on to Fiora.
12:16:37 <shachaf> They're the same person, I think.
12:16:49 <Jafet> I wonder if the death note book is machine printable
12:17:34 <Fiora> I only sort of know the katakana, I still need a reference to check things
12:18:06 <Fiora> basically I know just enough japanese to feel completely clueless
12:18:24 <shachaf> I manage to feel completely clueless while knowing even less Japanese.
12:18:36 <Jafet> You should try to forget a little of it, then.
12:18:37 <shachaf> I guess it's just a matter of natural talent?
12:24:29 -!- oerjan has set topic: FOUR SIMULTANEOUS TYPE SYSTEMS IN A SINGLE ROTATION OF THE LAMBDA CUBE | Necessity of inplantation of microchips every day is a must have to even be conssidered | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
12:25:04 <oerjan> (the misspelling is intentional, see log)
12:26:03 <shachaf> Which misspelling is intentional?
12:26:08 <shachaf> Is the other one unintentional?
12:26:29 <oerjan> oh that one was already in the topic.
12:26:30 <Deewiant> Well they're both based on something that came before.
12:26:58 <oerjan> i guess that just makes it fit together better
12:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> basically I know just enough japanese to feel completely clueless
12:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i know just enough japanese to know that the japanese consider "english word said in the most racist japanese accent" the normal way of doing loanwords
12:32:45 <Fiora> not really, people doing racist interpretations have no idea how kana work <.<
12:33:21 <Fiora> it's the same way we do loanwords, we write it in our alphabet and sound it out terribly
12:35:23 <Fiora> http://actualfacebookgraphsearches.tumblr.com/ ... oh wow. this exists
12:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://actualfacebookgraphsearches.tumblr.com/post/41233537916/people-who-like-english-defence-league-and-curry
12:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> this reminds me of the not the 9 o'clock news tory conference sketch
12:41:14 <shachaf> Is it true that everything exists?
12:41:40 <shachaf> Would you say: There are unicorns, but no existent unicorns? Or would you say: There are no unicorns?
12:41:59 <shachaf> (This question was raised by Raymond Smullyan, who attributed it to some other philosopher person.)
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13:09:50 <oerjan> `addquote <evincar> okay so like <evincar> do <fizzie> Or do not? <evincar> no no <evincar> do <evincar> There is no do not.
13:09:53 <HackEgo> 929) <evincar> okay so like <evincar> do <fizzie> Or do not? <evincar> no no <evincar> do <evincar> There is no do not.
13:22:55 <oerjan> <fizzie> "Evira" is the Finnish Food Safety Authority ("Elintarviketurvallisuusvirasto"). <-- obviously fake, there are no umlauts
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13:29:35 <quintopia> "viketurvall" is obviously "food" due to its striking resemblance to the english "victual"
13:30:43 <oerjan> impressive skill at missing the root boundaries, quintopia
13:31:32 <quintopia> oerjan: i figured i would. break it up for me
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13:32:32 <fizzie> (Elin|tarvike)|turvallisuus|virasto.
13:33:10 <fizzie> Finnish involves a lot of "turn it backwards" style derivation, yes.
13:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> vrutek is of course derived from the croatian supermarket chain
13:35:55 <oerjan> quintopia: finnish words basically never end in a consonant combination, and i don't think a single -r is appropriate either.
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13:36:33 <oerjan> so i can see it was wrong, although not so much where it _should_ split.
13:37:17 <oerjan> i think -n and -s are the main consonants that _can_ occur at the end of words.
13:37:55 <Phantom_Hoover> reversing a word and appending -all is as we all know the finnish version of the irth form
13:38:02 <quintopia> oerjan: lets just make shit up and pretend its finnish
13:38:45 <oerjan> quintopia: well if you had said "keturvalli", say, i wouldn't have been sure whether you were right or not.
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13:39:44 <quintopia> oerjan: but that would have left "suus"
13:40:14 <quintopia> since we can guess "virasto" from the fact it is abbv'd "evira"
13:40:24 <oerjan> yes, but i am not sure that "suus" isn't a word
13:40:45 <fizzie> oerjan: They're certainly the most likely, but it's not a strict rule; I mean, it's a language, all rules have exceptions. (E.g. askel 'a step' ends in l.)
13:40:53 <quintopia> it doesnt look very wordlike. i t only has four letters!
13:41:23 <oerjan> well it would be a pronoun or something...
13:42:26 <fizzie> And there are a lot of words that end in "-tar" describing female people.
13:42:30 <quintopia> organizations dont use words under 3 syllables silly
13:42:50 <fizzie> (Näyttelijätär 'actress', and so on.)
13:43:32 <oerjan> fizzie: darn don't go ruining all my rules here
13:44:39 <Phantom_Hoover> you damn scandinavians come into our channel and can't even be bothered to learn our language
13:44:52 <fizzie> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/UDJX though that wordlist has a lot of direct loanwords and things like that.
13:45:15 <fizzie> oerjan: (And probably most of the 't's are plurals, it has some amount of inflected variants.)
13:46:06 <Arc_Koen> are you guys currently in the process of learning your own language?
13:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> farscape got cancelled so abruptly they didn't even have time to get rid of the twist and the "to be continued" in the final episode
13:47:55 <Phantom_Hoover> and then the announcer says "despite what it says on the tin that was the last episode of farscape"
13:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> sadly it's much worse without the deadpan, bored bbc continuity announcement voice
13:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, yes, but not when that announcement was made!
13:49:31 <quintopia> i never heard the announcement when i watched it
13:49:37 <oerjan> do they have a continuum of announcers
13:49:39 <quintopia> the version i watched was unmolested by bbc
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15:06:16 <quintopia> how do you say things here so they dont go in the public log
15:10:05 <fizzie> I think we had a discussion about that.
15:10:11 <fizzie> I suggested something XML-based, IIRC.
15:11:31 <fizzie> <span freenode:logging="disable">I sure hope this comment was not logged.</span>
15:11:46 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't think it works.
15:12:06 <fizzie> (I know it's part of freenode guidelines to have a way of doing it.)
15:12:34 <elliott> quintopia: What do you want to say?
15:13:58 <quintopia> elliott: nothing now. i just wanted to know how it was done.
15:14:36 <Arc_Koen> I just created a quick mutiplayer game based on stratego and I need 2 or 3 people to test it!
15:15:59 <fizzie> elliott: I think e's going to report the channel to THE AUTHORITIES now that you've admitted that.
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15:16:50 <elliott> is ais523 the authorirtiteis
15:17:11 <fizzie> FREENODE POLICE is the authoritities.
15:19:22 <quintopia> Arc_Koen: how do you make a quick multiplayer game? was the networking that easy to hash out?
15:19:35 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: authorititis sounds awful, in the same line as teleportitis.
15:19:57 <Arc_Koen> quintopia: for some values of quick
15:20:10 <Arc_Koen> also it's not a software or a program or anything, if that was your question
15:21:17 <quintopia> this lw conversation is really quite interesting
15:22:04 <Arc_Koen> the only thing we need is a place to chat (like emails or irc) and also something like an MD5 hash to prevent players from cheating (that is, you have to chose a secret setup at the beginning of the game, and well it'd be good to be able to check at the end that the players sticked to the setup they chosed)
15:24:40 <quintopia> Arc_Koen: the hash of the initial setup should be done with a salt which is produced at the end, of course, so everyone can go back and check everyone else
16:19:42 <Deewiant> http://img.pr0gramm.com/2013/01/5e59e.png wow
16:28:39 <Phantom_Hoover> so i presume bert spent the last 7 years reading tbw general questions
16:29:39 <c00kiemon5ter> found the link! http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?13607-PLeas-eHElp-me-on-my-Computer-Game
16:31:52 <kmc> shachaf: wow, that essay :(
16:32:11 <kmc> nerds don't know how to talk to women! and nerds hate anyone who tolerates sports!
16:32:27 <kmc> if you hire women or people who talk to women or anyone who tolerates sports, it will sink your startup!
16:34:31 <elliott> 08:05:16: <ttmrichter> shachaf: I already know Haskell.
16:34:32 <elliott> 08:05:24: <shachaf> ttmrichter: Then you should learn lens.
16:34:32 <elliott> 08:05:26: <Bike> Isn't that transliterated as "Sasha"?
16:34:32 <elliott> 08:05:27: <ttmrichter> I even have a credit in Real World Haskell. :)
16:34:32 <elliott> 08:05:45: <shachaf> ttmrichter: I recognize your nick but I'm not sure where from.
16:34:35 <elliott> 08:05:56: <ttmrichter> From a recent anti-Haskell rant, probably. :D
16:35:03 <kmc> shachaf: how did you find that
16:36:03 <Taneb> (is kmc imagining a shachaf, or am I imagining no shachaf)
16:36:30 <kmc> i'm respnoding to something shachaf said a while back
16:36:38 <elliott> kmc: yo do you know the location of this anti-haskell rant
16:36:49 <elliott> IT'S http://www.txt.io/t-2kv5h
16:36:53 <kmc> elliott: no i try to avoid that kind of shit
16:36:57 <elliott> OH WOW i mocked that when it got on reddit i think
16:37:09 <elliott> amazing i am suddenly A+ super into this log
16:37:13 <elliott> kmc: well that's what you have me for right
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16:39:39 <elliott> wtf there wasn't even a flamewar
16:42:45 <elliott> kmc: haha wow I hate you for making me find out what you were referring to in the logs
16:43:08 <kmc> glad to be of service
16:43:56 <elliott> "PayPal was a place where the younger engineers could and would sometimes wrestle with each other on the floor to solve disputes!"
16:44:00 <elliott> kmc: are we sure this thing isn't satire
16:44:01 <Taneb> Note to self: make sure a library works before uploading it to Haskell
16:44:06 <kmc> i have no idea
16:44:09 <kmc> poe's law etc
16:44:47 <kmc> most things i hear about 'startup culture' set off the poe's law detector
16:48:41 <boily> we're pooling money to buy a rubber chicken head, to accompany the rubber horse head we already have.
16:49:14 <Taneb> Uploading it to Haskell
16:49:35 <Taneb> (there are about 5 broken versions of family-tree on Hackage)
16:49:57 <kmc> wow the gender ratio of Stanford CS is really really bad
16:50:01 <kmc> like 8% female
16:50:19 <Taneb> Better than this channel
16:50:44 <kmc> compared to ~30% at MIT
16:51:20 <kmc> even Caltech is better than that I think
16:51:53 <kmc> we had only like 25 CS undergrads graduate per year, but at least two of them were women
16:52:56 <kmc> no wonder the paypal people "don't know how to talk to women"
16:53:41 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure it involves opening and closing your mouth in unusual ways to make sounds
16:55:07 <Taneb> I wonder if Canonical is considering rolling releases for Ubuntu because they're running out of letters
16:55:19 <kmc> i think they should go back around the alphabet with fungi instead of animals
16:55:36 <elliott> kmc: i like how you managed to turn this into mit being better than caltech
16:55:46 <elliott> you should go work at paypal imo
16:55:50 <pikhq> Adorable Amanita muscaria
16:56:12 <kmc> elliott: wanna wrassle
16:56:24 <kmc> beautiful bolete
16:56:27 <kmc> charming chanterelle
16:56:30 <elliott> kmc: um isn't that a bit... gay
16:56:35 <elliott> i'm a programmer, you know
16:56:48 <kmc> elliott: it's not gay if the balls don't touch [p < 0.05]
16:57:07 <pikhq> In my experience it's not gay even if the balls touch.
16:57:31 <kmc> well you need a professional grade phased array gaydar to make that determination
16:57:35 <kmc> and those cost thousands of dollars
16:57:54 <pikhq> They're standard equipment for gays and bisexuals.
16:58:19 <Taneb> I'm a biromatic asexual, can I get one?
16:58:30 <pikhq> That's close enough.
16:58:38 <kmc> i must have missed the memo
16:59:01 <pikhq> Now, just walk through the hall of gloryholes and recieve yours.
16:59:12 <pikhq> (the hall is so we have a handy test case)
16:59:32 <Sgeo> I feel like an awful person
16:59:44 <Sgeo> There's a thing in Newspeak that I fixed and never released and now I lost it
16:59:47 <kmc> imo you're both fine people
16:59:47 <Bike> did your balls touch, sgeo?
17:02:50 <Sgeo> "The VM object supports the set of operations traditionally implemented as
17:02:50 <Sgeo> primitives in Smalltalk. There is no syntax for a primitive call in Newspeak. A
17:02:50 <Sgeo> primitive call is a message send to the VM object."
17:31:16 <Sgeo> I keep hearing about BETA, but haven't actually looked at it
17:31:23 <Sgeo> (or gbeta which I gather is a successor)
17:32:26 <Sgeo> " The binary for Windows is not currently available because of the large number of recent changes, but it will become available again."
17:32:33 <Sgeo> Looking at the news, I think gbeta's dead
17:32:38 <Sgeo> Hasn't been touched since 2011
17:35:56 <Sgeo> "The current gbeta implementation is more for the (academic) geek who is interested in programming language design and type systems, and less for the no-nonsense practical programmer who wants to write large mission-critical applications."
17:36:17 <Sgeo> I keep looking for something that works well with the latter when at heart I'm really the former
17:36:27 <Sgeo> I think that's why I'm always on a language hunt
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18:08:46 <kmc> a common predicament
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18:30:55 <oklopol> also apparently this was talked ages ago and not a second ago
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18:31:21 <fizzie> We've had "really bad" ratios at least in the new-students statistics for CS some years.
18:31:26 <fizzie> I don't know how much it's overall.
18:31:30 <oklopol> i read upward for 5 minutes, took a sauna and continued the discussion i saw.
18:31:37 <fizzie> It's certainly less than 30%, but might be above 8%.
18:34:27 <elliott> oklopol: remember that time you continued a conversation in here exactly however many years later
18:34:30 <elliott> after having said you would
18:35:18 <kmc> gender ratio seems more important the more i think about it
18:36:04 <kmc> not just to have more women in the field, but also so that men in the field don't see women as some strange mythological species
18:36:08 <oklopol> the best part was that i ran home from work because i thought the moment was in 5 minutes, but i'd mixed up time difference between logs.
18:36:25 <kmc> i wish i had gone to a school with a less skewed ratio, i think i would be a better person
18:36:51 <kmc> oklopol: well done
18:42:23 <olsner> elliott: when was that?
18:54:58 <elliott> kmc: do you know how to tell gcc to use ld.gold as the linker
18:56:24 <olsner> -fuse-ld=gold or something
18:57:26 <nortti> anyone here knows what is up with autoconfig generated config script trying to test if compiler works by feeding .h files to it and breaking?
18:58:40 <nortti> #autotools has not answered in 48h
18:59:37 <ais523> nortti: what's the error message?
19:00:08 <olsner> you can always just blame autoconfig and give up
19:00:08 <nortti> checking whether the C compiler works... no
19:00:08 <nortti> configure: error: in `/home/juhani/src/mtools-4.0.18':
19:00:08 <nortti> configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
19:00:26 <ais523> nortti: what about in config.log? that gives more detailed errors
19:00:39 <nortti> I can paste it if you want
19:01:29 <nortti> http://paste.dy.fi/TLo/plain
19:02:19 <ais523> nortti: oh wow, it seems to be generating the test C file incorrectly
19:02:25 <Taneb> > join fmap (>>) suc 0
19:02:28 <Taneb> > join fmap (>>) succ 0
19:02:30 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = a0 -> b0
19:02:45 <Taneb> > ap fmap (>>) succ 0
19:02:46 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b0 = b0 -> b1
19:03:07 <Taneb> Aaah, (>>) doesn't work like that
19:03:10 <Taneb> > ap fmap seq succ 0
19:03:12 <nortti> ais523: and it does that on both my slitaz 3 install AND lubuntu 12.10
19:03:22 <ais523> nortti: yeah, sounds like the config script that's broken
19:03:28 <Taneb> > ap fmap seq "hello"
19:03:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> b0'
19:03:37 <ais523> it'll clearly screw up consistently, given the contents of config.log
19:03:40 <nortti> ais523: but that happens with _every_ file
19:04:05 <nortti> every ./configure fails the exact same way
19:04:18 <ais523> then autoconf is broken on the system that's generating them
19:04:25 <ais523> try with C-INTERCAL's configure, if you want one that's known to work
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19:05:02 <ais523> elliott: I just grepped the entire info pages for gcc for "linker", it seems the only way to do it is to change the spec files
19:05:39 <ais523> there's an option -specs= to use a substitute specs file
19:05:44 <ais523> and you could specify one with gold as the linker
19:05:45 <elliott> -fuse-linker-plugin seems to wokr
19:06:12 <ais523> I think the intended method is to mention gold while building gcc, and have it generate the appropriate specs file automatically
19:06:16 <nortti> ais523: http://paste.dy.fi/TOO/plain
19:08:02 <ais523> nortti: was a file conftest.c left behind?
19:08:07 <ais523> if so, what are its contents/
19:10:55 <ais523> does config.status exist?
19:12:40 <ais523> wow, pretty much all the autoconf-related scripts have a -d option for leaving files like conftest.c behind
19:12:44 <ais523> apart from the one we actually care about :(
19:14:14 <ais523> I'm not getting the error you are, so it's definitely something up with your machine's configuration
19:14:53 <nortti> also to add insult to the injury it stopped working on both machine the exact same day and I don't think I even touched the lubuntu machine that day
19:15:48 <ais523> I'd love it if we could somehow grab conftest.c before it was deleted
19:16:16 <nortti> I'll try something insane
19:18:49 <nortti> http://paste.dy.fi/IzT/plain
19:19:00 <ais523> what shell are you using?
19:19:16 <ais523> try running it in dash or bash
19:19:43 <nortti> busybox ash and bash give the same error
19:20:21 <ais523> can you paste the configure script itself?
19:22:55 <nortti> do you know any pastebins that can hold 200kB?
19:23:11 <nortti> paste.dy.fi only works up to 64kB
19:23:12 <Sgeo> "Take C for instance. The widespread adoption is mainly due to its simplicity of syntax. With most of the recent languages adopting an interpreter based approach, why hasnt lisp or smalltalk made a comeback? Because they are complex. Complex to write, complex to maintain and complex to read. "
19:23:18 <ais523> nortti: can you paste the first 3000 lines or so?
19:23:26 <ais523> the rest doesn't matter because it's already crashed by that point
19:23:54 <nortti> http://paste.dy.fi/Ig8/plain
19:25:07 <kmc> http://www.kogan.com/au/blog/new-internet-explorer-7-tax/
19:25:13 <ais523> oh, it's the C-INTERCAL config script, I have that one already :) (although thanks for the paste anyway to make sure the version matches)
19:25:44 <ais523> oh, I actually need the first 4000 or so lines, error's on line 3500
19:25:47 <Sgeo> This is a gold mine http://www.java.net/pub/pq/196
19:26:29 <ais523> Sgeo: you mean the comments?
19:26:46 <nortti> ais523: I'll set up a web server
19:28:43 <ais523> yeah, your version of the script seems different from mine
19:30:52 <ais523> what page? default page?
19:30:52 <nortti> it is hosted with netcat
19:31:01 <ais523> not a web server, then
19:31:23 <nortti> couldn't be arsed to compile my server
19:31:37 <ais523> do I actually need to send an HTTP request?
19:31:45 <ais523> it just waited for a bit
19:33:49 <Sgeo> Ok, Bracha's paper on mirrors is formatted weirdly. There's text that's part of the paper, and right where I'm expecting more, there's copyright-related stuff
19:33:49 <Sgeo> http://bracha.org/mirrors.pdf
19:36:40 <ais523> well, line 3414 should be putting a main in there, but somehow it isn't
19:37:38 <nortti> and now I feel stupid as hell
19:37:41 <ais523> nortti: could you start tracing at line 3410?
19:37:46 <ais523> oh, have you figured out what was wrong?
19:38:04 <kmc> Sgeo: a gold mine of what?
19:38:27 <kmc> a gold mine of shit
19:38:30 <kmc> or a shit mine, for short
19:39:11 <Sgeo> Does shit mine mean a mine of shit or that it's shitty at acting like a mine?
19:39:15 <kmc> slant drilling under the outhouse
19:39:18 <nortti> I use this cat implementation: main(a,b)char**b;{if(a>1)while(*++b){open(*b,0);while(read(3,&a,1)>0)write(1,&a,1);close(3);}else while(read(0,&a,1)>0)write(1,&a,1);return 0;}
19:39:49 <nortti> the reason of autoconf failing was a missing feature _in my cat implementation_
19:40:14 <ais523> oh, I don't think autoconf tests if cat is sane
19:40:19 <monqy> can your dumpster computer not run a real cat
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19:40:44 <ais523> if you mentioned you'd rewritten textutils (or is cat coreutils?), I might have guessed what was wrong with the program
19:40:55 <ais523> otherwise, I feel there wasn't sufficient information to solve the problem :)
19:41:01 <kmc> which feature?
19:41:05 <kmc> cat -v is pretty useful
19:41:18 <nortti> kmc: I have catv for that
19:41:28 <nortti> ais523: I actually forgot about that
19:41:44 <nortti> monqy: it can, I just like using my own implementations of unix utils. eating your own dogshit^H^H^H^Hfood
19:41:47 <elliott> `addquote <ais523> if you mentioned you'd rewritten textutils (or is cat coreutils?), I might have guessed what was wrong with the program
19:41:54 <HackEgo> 930) <ais523> if you mentioned you'd rewritten textutils (or is cat coreutils?), I might have guessed what was wrong with the program
19:42:08 <elliott> do I get points if I guessed the problem was nortti's system was deliberately crippled in a way he wasn't revealing like 15 minutes ago
19:42:55 <HackEgo> 929) <evincar> okay so like <evincar> do <fizzie> Or do not? <evincar> no no <evincar> do <evincar> There is no do not.
19:43:25 <Sgeo> `welcome insanity wolf
19:43:26 <HackEgo> insanity: wolf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:43:50 <monqy> who're insanity & wolf i dont see them
19:44:31 <Sgeo> Some image macro
19:44:35 <olsner> elliott: only if you told us about it like 15 minutes ago
19:45:11 <olsner> maybe we should have a voting system on the quotes
19:45:21 <elliott> olsner: telling would spoil it
19:45:25 <HackEgo> 436) <Sgeo> My memory passed <monqy> rest in peace sgeos memory
19:45:25 <HackEgo> 662) <Gregor> pikhq: And of course Rick Perry, saying that there's something wrong with a country where gays can serve in the military but we don't elect a douchebag as president.
19:45:25 <HackEgo> 448) <Taneb> I combined the wholegrain breakfast and chocolatey breakfast for maximum breakfast efficiency
19:45:26 <HackEgo> 141) <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
19:45:28 <HackEgo> 80) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things...
19:46:41 <HackEgo> 320) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 321) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django
19:47:16 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:47:49 <boily> hmm... `quote `quote isn't quite a quote quine.
19:48:38 <ion> @@ @echo @echo
19:48:38 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "ion!ion@heh.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo"]} rest:"echo; msg:IrcMessage {
19:48:38 <lambdabot> msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"ion!ion@heh.fi\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\":@@ @echo @echo\"]} rest:\"\""
19:49:01 <HackEgo> 636) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness
19:49:01 <HackEgo> 649) <itidus22> if the halting problem was solved, as a placebo.. would it benefit people?
19:49:02 <HackEgo> 394) <Madk> #%%:]__t�# <Madk> do you see that <Madk> that is great progress taking place
19:49:03 <HackEgo> 129) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
19:49:03 <HackEgo> 791) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
19:49:19 <ion> @@ @tell Sgeo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo
19:49:27 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:49:27 <elliott> those aren't the same at ALL
19:49:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:49:45 <elliott> monqy: r u a magician........ :'''/
19:49:49 <lambdabot> ion said 30s ago: echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "ion!ion@heh.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @tell Sgeo @echo @echo @
19:49:49 <lambdabot> echo @echo @echo"]} rest:"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"ion!ion@heh.fi\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\":@@ @tell
19:49:49 <lambdabot> Sgeo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo\"]} rest:\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"ion!ion@heh.fi\\\", msgCommand = \\\"PRIVMSG\\\",
19:49:49 <lambdabot> msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@@ @tell Sgeo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo\\\"]} rest:\\\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\\\\\"freenode\\\\\\\", msgLBName = \\\\\\\"lambdabot\\\\\\\",
19:49:49 <lambdabot> msgPrefix = \\\\\\\"ion!ion@heh.fi\\\\\\\", msgCommand = \\\\\\\"PRIVMSG\\\\\\\", msgParams = [\\\\\\\"#esoteric\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\":@@ @tell Sgeo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo\\\\\\\"]} rest:\\\\\\\"
19:49:49 <HackEgo> 816) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
19:49:50 <HackEgo> 314) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <Phantom_Hoover> That is the thing that made me into a gay vampire.
19:49:50 <monqy> elliott: the f kicks in and the b gets canceled
19:49:51 <HackEgo> 904) <hagb4rd> what is this set? sounds like shakespear <fizzie> Yes, that's what people often say about Chrono Trigger.
19:49:51 <HackEgo> 373) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET
19:49:52 <HackEgo> 736) <Edwin Brady> Just seen this comment on reddit: "Parallel programming has been a solved problem for decades." I might have to stop reading the internet.
19:49:56 <elliott> monqy: (i know how it works)
19:50:04 <monqy> elliott: oh...................................:''/
19:50:06 <elliott> 816 is good i haven't seen it before
19:54:09 <olsner> where does scotland start? I wonder if I've been there
19:54:38 <Taneb> olsner, just past Berwick
19:54:53 <Taneb> Just before Jedburgh
19:54:59 <Taneb> Just after Carlisle
19:55:10 <Taneb> Depending on your longitude
19:57:28 <olsner> apparently scotland has a "Devolved government"
19:57:47 <Taneb> We shot them with a devolution gun
19:57:53 <Taneb> Hoping they'd turn into dinosaurs
19:57:57 <Taneb> Because dinosaurs are cool
19:58:48 <olsner> turns out I have no idea where I've been so it ended up a bit hard to figure out if any of those places were past Berwick
19:59:05 <Taneb> Did you go to Edinburgh
19:59:48 <olsner> amy pond is from inverness
19:59:59 <Taneb> Inverness is scarily North
20:00:57 <olsner> its about one degree south of here actually
20:01:12 <Taneb> olsner is scarily North
20:01:37 <olsner> pretty sure I'm south of the southernmost part of Norway
20:01:49 <Taneb> Norway is scarliest North
20:02:31 <olsner> (not counting the norwegian colonies)
20:09:39 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:09:54 -!- augur has joined.
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20:11:58 -!- c00kiemon5ter has joined.
20:12:11 <HackEgo> 2013-01-23 20:12:08: <c00kiemon5ter> `seen c00kiemon5ter
20:12:35 <HackEgo> 2013-01-19 07:40:42: <augur> http://decovo.wordpress.com
20:13:02 <monqy> clearly use the raw logs
20:13:36 <elliott> monqy: what would that change
20:14:16 <monqy> tracking for things that dont have <name> in the fancy logs, like joins, quits, and ACTIONs
20:14:18 <boily> Taneb: Inverness is indeed scarily North; about 12° up from montréal.
20:14:56 <monqy> alt. make cases for all those??? alt. dont care
20:15:15 <Taneb> boily, Hexham is about as North as Calgary
20:15:36 <HackEgo> ehird is the person who Taneb definitely isn't.
20:15:38 <coppro> hey, I know that place
20:16:13 <elliott> monqy: is it worth tracking joins/parts
20:16:17 <elliott> seems like last message beats last part or whatever
20:17:37 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen Plazma ever
20:17:51 <zzo38> Maybe you should consider PRIVMSG and NOTICE at least, and then perhaps also JOIN, I think may be OK. No use of PART, QUIT, NICK, and so on, I think.
20:18:01 <boily> it looks like for the most part active people here are from far up north in their respective continents (except Fiora who's califoriating). is there at least a single person from the south hemisphere here?
20:18:15 <olsner> a part can be useful if it includes a witty exit message
20:18:16 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen itidus* ever
20:18:20 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen itidus20 ever
20:18:30 <Taneb> itidus20 is an Aussie
20:18:42 <Fiora> I think most of the australians are busy melting this time of year
20:18:49 <Taneb> I'm /legally/ Australian, but I'm mainly British
20:18:50 <Phantom_Hoover> if you add him to Fiora that takes him as far south as you'd ever really need
20:19:21 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover is in New Zealand or somewhere ridiculous like that
20:19:21 <boily> a hybrid Taneb × Fiora cultivar?
20:19:34 <Fiora> I'm... I'm not sure what this would be like
20:19:36 <olsner> perhaps we should measure distance from the equator instead, to make it fair for the southhemispherians
20:19:37 <kmc> didn't we have some NZers
20:19:51 <HackEgo> 2013-01-04 15:29:25: <mrout> don't beta-reduce me, please. it made me dc
20:19:58 <Taneb> He's a kiwi, I think
20:20:08 <Fiora> what exactly does hybridizing humans do
20:20:14 <Fiora> and what if they're not the the same sex
20:20:28 <Taneb> Fiora, when two people love each other VERY MUCH
20:20:34 <Taneb> And wish REALLY HARD
20:20:44 <Taneb> And do some other stuff EQUALLY HARD
20:21:05 <Taneb> Sometimes they end up with a hybridization of themselves
20:21:15 * kmc currently at 42.364540°N
20:21:15 <Fiora> but that takes 9 months and is all kinds of awful :<
20:21:28 <Fiora> can't there be a better way? like ectobiology?
20:21:54 <Taneb> SBurb doesn't come out until next year
20:22:11 <Taneb> Late next year, I believe
20:22:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how did that happen again?
20:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb must carry the torch of esolangs alone into the next universe
20:23:10 <Taneb> And besides, I count at least 3 of you as friends
20:23:21 <Taneb> I count at least 2 of you as friends
20:23:40 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Taneb|Away.
20:23:45 <shachaf> kmc: Did you figure out whether it was satire?
20:23:48 <fizzie> Extrapolating from that, it's 0 in just few more minutes.
20:23:55 <kmc> no, didn't look closely enough
20:23:58 <shachaf> All I found was a link on the Internet to it.
20:24:22 <shachaf> As far as I can tell the class existed at Stanford, at least.
20:25:54 <Sgeo> Self has mirrors!
20:25:58 <Sgeo> Why is Self dead?
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20:30:53 <oerjan> <Taneb> Hoping they'd turn into dinosaurs <-- nah humans aren't descended from dinosaurs. although if you hit any stray birds...
20:31:09 <Sgeo> Why would you want more than a machine language?
20:31:53 <Sgeo> (Note: Not intended as a serious question. Just saw the von Nemann quote)
20:32:32 <zzo38> What von Nemann quote?
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20:33:05 <Sgeo> Supposedly he was being shown FORTRAN and said that
20:33:10 <Sgeo> "Why would you want more than a machine language?"
20:33:21 -!- Taneb|Away has changed nick to Taneb.
20:33:29 <Taneb> I'm back and I hate you all
20:33:31 <zzo38> One reason is that the machine language does not work on the other computer.
20:33:43 <zzo38> (except by emulation, but that would be slow)
20:34:48 <kmc> or dynamic binary translation, which can run faster than native
20:35:42 <zzo38> Would dynamic binary translation work? I thought there might be some cases causing problems, unless it is Restricted Harvard
20:36:23 <kmc> zzo38: qemu works by binary translation, as do vmware and virtualbox (sometimes)
20:36:55 <Gregor> Sometimes = when they're not working.
20:37:12 <kmc> how do you mean?
20:37:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, apparently chocolate desserts accelerate the process
20:37:24 <kmc> what i mean is, these programs also support hardware-assisted virtualization these days
20:37:50 <Gregor> kmc: And prefer it in all cases. So they only use binary translation if something is wrong.
20:38:12 <kmc> sure but it still works
20:38:26 <elliott> something is wrong such as not having virtualisation :(
20:38:41 <kmc> OpenSSL will use RDRAND on Ivy Bridge processors but I wouldn't say that OpenSSL on any other processor is "not working"
20:38:54 <kmc> except that OpenSSL is shit but anyway
20:38:59 <Gregor> My argument was only with your "sometimes" ;)
20:39:19 <zzo38> I wouldn't think binary translation can always work in all cases unless you also have something else to keep track of anything that changes and to retranslate.
20:39:33 <kmc> yes you have to do that
20:39:41 <Fiora> yup, you can do that
20:39:47 <kmc> binary translation can't work unless you do all the things necessary to make it work
20:40:13 <Fiora> you can keep maps of entry points, watch when something tries to write to the code page, fun things like that
20:40:18 <zzo38> But will it slow down if you do that?
20:40:21 <kmc> ksplice is easily confused inside virtualbox because virtualbox did a bad job of hiding changing code pages from the guest
20:40:26 <kmc> but vmware binary translation did a better job
20:40:29 <kmc> zzo38: yes
20:40:35 <kmc> but not necessarily dramatically
20:40:55 <kmc> i remember using VMWare on an Athlon XP in like 2003 and it was reasonably fast
20:41:06 <kmc> i could run Windows inside Linux well enough to play some games
20:41:12 <kmc> though they didn't have 3D accel passthrough yet
20:41:37 <zzo38> Were they the games without the 3D, then?
20:41:37 <kmc> binary translation can also make code much /faster/ because the binary translator can act as an optimizing JIT
20:42:07 <kmc> it can compile only the hot paths of code, making assumptions that don't hold in general, and then call back to the interpreter when those assumptions are violated
20:42:18 <kmc> zzo38: software 3D
20:42:32 <Fiora> optimizing JITs can be tricky though if the source is on a machine with flags up the wazoo though
20:42:40 <Sgeo> Wait virtualization stuff does 3d passthrough now?
20:42:50 <kmc> yes I think for a long time
20:43:05 <Sgeo> I think last time I really played with virtualization was in 2007 or so
20:43:11 <Sgeo> On a computer from 2000
20:43:24 <Sgeo> Because I never have good computers
20:43:27 <zzo38> Can anyone make binary translation into a FPGA code?
20:43:31 <Sgeo> If I have a computer, it's safe to assume it sucks
20:46:09 <Fiora> there's paravirtualization stuff where it just dedicates a graphics card to the VM, right?
20:46:54 -!- augur has joined.
20:47:04 <oerjan> <CTCP>SECRET message test<CTCP>
20:47:26 <olsner> oerjan: SECRET message fail?
20:47:53 <oerjan> hm glogbot logs notices now, so yes
20:48:25 <zzo38> I think glogbot logs everything it receives (maybe with a few exceptions).
20:48:32 <olsner> Fiora: with an IOMMU I think you can do that without it being paravirtualization
20:48:37 <Sgeo> Therefore, we must induce exceptions
20:49:17 <zzo38> If you don't want to log the message you can send message to someone directly who you want to read it only them.
20:50:29 <fizzie> zzo38: The point is that "freenode philosophy: channel guidelines: -- Be sure to provide a way for users to make comments without logging".
20:51:13 <zzo38> You can; you send message to the users you want to receve it. Perhaps you can use multiple PRIVMSG will it work?
20:51:44 <fizzie> That's not a comment on the channel, which is clearly what they mean in the guidelines.
20:52:39 <zzo38> Then make up a separate channel for not logged messages.
20:53:28 <fizzie> That's also not a comment on the channel; that's a comment on some completely other channel.
20:53:50 <fizzie> You could as well say "just say the comment out loud in the privacy of your home".
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20:56:34 <Sgeo> ais523, what do you think about Klein?
20:56:34 <Sgeo> http://blog.selflanguage.org/tag/klein/
20:56:40 <Sgeo> http://kleinvm.sourceforge.net/
21:00:58 <nortti> ok. config works now with this cat: main(a,b)char**b;{if(a>1)while(*++b){if(**b!='-'){open(*b,0);while(read(3,&a,1)>0)write(1,&a,1);close(3);}else while(read(0,&a,1)>0)write(1,&a,1);}else while(read(0,&a,1)>0)write(1,&a,1);return 0;}
21:01:42 <elliott> have you noticed that code is unreadable
21:02:19 <nortti> I'm develping a new cat not based on aiju's tiny unix tools one
21:02:37 <nortti> actually, completely new core/textutils package
21:02:45 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't have an opinion on the subject
21:04:49 <Gregor> I would be willing to add a nolog trigger to glogbot if people could agree on what that would be.
21:05:20 <elliott> Gregor: i'd rather you didn't.
21:05:27 <Gregor> I'd rather I didn't too ;)
21:05:27 <elliott> since it'd mean I'd have to care about clog's existence again
21:05:47 <Gregor> Hence why I made an impossible condition.
21:06:09 <elliott> fizzie: Also didn't we decide those guidelines are actually just guidelines?
21:06:11 <Sgeo> Is there anything that clog is blind to?
21:07:03 <Sgeo> (I just like using Esperanto swears)
21:09:23 -!- itrekkie has joined.
21:09:56 <boily> Sgeo: esperanto has swears?
21:10:23 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't it?
21:10:43 <itrekkie> Hi all--has anyone done any work with brainfuck? I'm interested in folding the pointer manipulation into a static offset, but figuring out how this works with loops eluding me
21:10:45 <boily> dunno. I had this image that it was a proper, clean, smart international language.
21:10:55 <elliott> itrekkie: static offset howso?
21:11:11 <Sgeo> There's a Wikipedia article about it
21:11:12 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_profanity
21:11:25 <Sgeo> boily, the creator might have intended it that way, but
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21:11:43 <itrekkie> well I'm translating directly to x86 assembly, so say the stack address is stored in eax then I can just use addressing to add and sub to cells
21:11:44 <HackEgo> itrekkie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:12:14 -!- augur has joined.
21:12:28 <elliott> you can't totally eliminate the pointer for non-balanced loops if that's what you mean
21:12:56 <boily> Sgeo: I'll be darned.
21:12:59 <FreeFull> Hey, what would work like interact id but stop when it receives EOF?
21:13:02 <ais523> itrekkie: for balanced loops, you can calculate the pointer statically
21:13:13 <ais523> but such loops can be entirely optimized into polynomials
21:13:25 <ais523> unbalanced loops, you can't optimize it that way (BF would be obviously non-Turing-complete if you could)
21:13:53 <itrekkie> sorry dumb question, but balanced loop?
21:14:48 <ais523> itrekkie: a balanced loop has the same number of < and > inside it, and any nested loops inside it are also balanced loops
21:15:07 <ais523> so a simple transfer-addition like [->+<] can be optimized into offsets
21:15:19 <ais523> but it could also be optimized into loc1 += loc0; loc0 = 0;
21:15:42 <ais523> in general, when you can optimize into static memory locations, you can also optimize into arithmetic that doesn't involve a loop at all
21:15:56 <itrekkie> for anyone wondering, I'm working from this reader challenge (http://blog.reverberate.org/2013/01/reader-challenge-optimize-bf-jit.html) it's a fun article
21:16:23 <FreeFull> getContents doesn't do it either
21:16:26 <ais523> there are some idioms that have unbalanced loops that can nonetheless be optimized, but after a while you need strong AI to be able to work out how
21:16:28 <itrekkie> right, okay that's taking it step even farther than I had planned and folding the loop into a constant?
21:16:44 -!- boily has left ("Poulet!").
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21:17:06 <FreeFull> Maybe that's just the terminal
21:17:18 <ais523> FreeFull: to type EOF in a terminal, you need to type ^D at the start of a line, or ^D twice inside a line
21:17:30 <ais523> in a typical UNIX terminal with a typical UNIX shell, that is
21:17:50 <itrekkie> I'm wondering if there is a simpler more general way to handle unbalanced and balanced loops. It seems to me I can just track the offset and at the end of each loop iteration, commit the new pointer location
21:18:51 <FreeFull> ais523: ghci seems to disable that entirely
21:19:11 <elliott> you haven't even given enough info or wahtever and stuff
21:19:13 <ais523> yeah, it'll be setting its own line discipline
21:19:33 <ais523> it's technically a terminal feature, but the shell configures it
21:19:46 <ais523> if you're not entering the file in via the shell, it may be configured differently
21:21:18 -!- augur has joined.
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21:21:47 <FreeFull> main=do{a<-getArgs;if a==[]then interact(id)else mapM_(\x->if x=="-"then interact(id)else readFile x)a}
21:21:52 <FreeFull> Code not tested, probably doesn't work
21:22:14 -!- augur has joined.
21:23:47 <FreeFull> One problem, when you do cat - -, the second - will reopen stdin for further reading, while interact(id) will just fail
21:23:53 <elliott> it doesn't print the file for one
21:24:22 <FreeFull> main=do{a<-getArgs;if a==[]then interact(id)else mapM_(\x->if x=="-"then interact(id)else print.readFile$x)a}
21:24:44 <lambdabot> Monad m => (a -> b -> m a) -> a -> [b] -> m a
21:24:56 <nortti> hmm. unix (core|text)utils written in haskell...
21:25:25 <Bike> haskell's the perfect language for passing dumb streams of bytes around, yeah?
21:25:25 <FreeFull> I wonder if it could be shorter if I didn't use do
21:26:11 <ais523> Bike: I don't know, BF is quite good at that too
21:26:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:26:27 <FreeFull> main=getArgs>>=\a->if a==[]then interact(id)else mapM_(\x->if x=="-"then interact(id)else print.readFile$x)a
21:26:29 <Bike> posix in bf, perfect
21:26:42 <ais523> BF is good at string handling (relatively speaking)
21:27:00 <ais523> conclusion: allow calling out to BF to do string handling in INTERCAL
21:27:09 <Bike> what is Intercal's specialty
21:27:27 <ais523> Bike: in terms of actual usefulness? bit-twiddling and complex control flow
21:27:30 <zzo38> CLC-INTERCAL has commands to add plugins, so you can add such things using that, possibly
21:27:45 <ais523> although the language's only official purpose is to be different from other languages
21:28:30 <FreeFull> INTERCAL's manual has a tonsil
21:30:26 <ais523> hey, anyone here an expert on emoticons?
21:30:35 <ais523> is there a generic one that doesn't convey a particular emotion?
21:30:40 <ais523> not neutral, not happy, not sad
21:30:44 <zzo38> I have wanted some of INTERCAL's flow control in LLVM, actually.
21:30:45 <ais523> just the fact that an emoticon was used
21:31:21 <ais523> I was wondering about :/
21:31:25 <ais523> it seems maybe the closest
21:31:35 <ais523> elliott: I like that one
21:31:50 <ais523> perhaps I'll use it in #esoteric
21:31:55 <ais523> as well as the `-on-a-line-by-itself
21:32:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: -`: not found
21:32:10 <ais523> (which I haven't used for ages, but if I did, at least some people would still know what I meant)
21:32:12 <elliott> ais523: perhaps you can express it with http://www.w3.org/TR/emotionml/
21:32:16 <ais523> (although HackEgo wouldn't)
21:32:27 <ais523> elliott: haha, "10 may 2012"?
21:32:33 <ais523> I was expecting an april 1 date
21:32:47 <elliott> <category name="Disgust" value="0.82"/>
21:32:47 <elliott> ‘Come, there’s no use in crying like that!’
21:32:47 <elliott> said Alice to herself rather sharply;
21:32:47 <Bike> jesus christ, this is huge
21:32:52 <elliott> <category name="Anger" value="0.57"/>
21:32:54 <elliott> ‘I advise you to leave off this minute!’
21:33:04 <elliott> <category name="Disgust" value="0.82"/>
21:33:07 <elliott> <category name="Contempt" value="0.35"/>
21:33:07 <olsner> hmm, hitachi sells a 4TB hard drive with 3GB of free online backup
21:33:09 <elliott> <category name="Anger" value="0.12"/>
21:33:09 <ais523> "The Emotion Incubator Group has listed 39 individual use cases for an EmotionML."
21:33:11 <elliott> <category name="Surprise" value="0.53"/>
21:33:17 <elliott> <emotion appraisal-set="http://www.w3.org/TR/emotion-voc/xml#scherer-appraisals"> <appraisal name="suddenness" value="0.9"/> <!-- appraisal as a very sudden event -->
21:33:19 <Bike> is this not a joke,i'm confused
21:33:22 <kmc> <category name="Asperger syndrome" value="9000"/>
21:33:36 <ais523> Bike: it appears to have something to do with XML
21:33:39 <Bike> <category name="Confusion" value = "9.7" />
21:33:46 <olsner> <category name="Despair" value="XML"/>
21:33:48 <kmc> dazed and confused, but trying to continue
21:33:49 <Bike> is this some semantic web thing gone horribly wrong
21:34:09 <Bike> "Human emotions are increasingly understood to be a crucial aspect in human-machine interactive systems."
21:34:21 <Bike> "Especially for non-expert end users, reactions to complex intelligent systems resemble social interactions, involving feelings such as frustration, impatience, or helplessness if things go wrong. " yeah ok this is pretty amazing
21:34:27 <zzo38> If you want to use that, then if you want the not emotion even though it is, then write: <emotion/>
21:34:50 <ais523> Bike: kmc: they actually wrote a justification: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/emotion/XGR-emotion/#AppendixUseCases
21:35:00 <ais523> zzo38: that's a good point
21:35:26 <monqy> 13:30:25 <ais523> hey, anyone here an expert on emoticons?
21:35:27 <ais523> "Alejandra wants to build an ontology driven architecture that allows animating virtual humans (VH) considering a previous definition of their individuality. This individuality is composed of morphological descriptors, personality and emotional state."
21:35:27 <monqy> 13:30:35 <ais523> is there a generic one that doesn't convey a particular emotion?
21:35:30 <monqy> 13:30:40 <ais523> not neutral, not happy, not sad
21:35:30 <olsner> probably an april fool's that accidentally got stuck in an official process for five weeks and ended up being released as a recommendation
21:35:53 <ais523> oh no, this is the sort of focus group document that substitutes in random arbitrary names
21:35:57 <ais523> to make the applications seem more human
21:36:05 <olsner> monqy: is that the same meaning conveyed by "hi"?
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21:36:15 <elliott> monqy: I already suggested :!!!
21:36:20 <ais523> "hi" has two specific meanings
21:36:26 <ais523> one of them is a greeting
21:36:32 <ais523> and the other is to express disapproval
21:36:36 <ais523> sometimes you can distinguish them from context
21:37:06 <Bike> ontology <-- fucking knew it
21:40:14 <ais523> hmm… so there's a European standard for CVs, nowadays
21:40:25 <ais523> should I use it for my own CV? it'd fit in with the way I normally act, at least
21:43:12 <olsner> standards are for sheeple
21:45:31 <oerjan> ais523 is like the crown prince of the sheeple
21:45:55 <ais523> I follow standards nobody else follows!
21:46:12 <zzo38> ais523: Which ones?
21:46:14 <ais523> it defeats most of the purpose of standards, but allows me to feel smugly superior
21:46:19 <ais523> zzo38: POSIX standard for tarballs
21:47:07 <zzo38> Despite the name, Internet Quiz Engine is the only one that is also possible to run locally (without internet).
21:47:21 <zzo38> Is that the case, other people doesn't use those standard?
21:47:25 <zzo38> I thought it does.
21:47:50 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure GNU tar's output is PAX-compatible anymore at least.
21:48:18 <pikhq> (helps the format is *essentially* just old POSIX tar)
21:49:15 <zzo38> I make up formats that nobody else uses.
21:53:20 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> most things i hear about 'startup culture' set off the poe's law detector
21:53:23 <HackEgo> 931) <kmc> most things i hear about 'startup culture' set off the poe's law detector
21:53:40 <zzo38> What is a poe's law detector?
21:53:55 <Bike> a detector to see if something is genuine or satire.
21:55:38 <ais523> Bike: one of my friends in another channel has that problem at the moment
21:55:46 <ais523> he's been offered a job in a startup-like company
21:56:03 <ais523> and its apparent business plan is so bad he can't believe it's real and thinks the company's hiding something
21:56:05 <Fiora> http://www.dogbarkz.com/
21:56:12 <Fiora> ... oh god it's triggering poe's law
21:56:14 <Fiora> I don't know if it's real
21:56:32 <Taneb> I'm going for "real"
21:56:40 <Fiora> .... I found launch articles .........
21:56:51 <Taneb> I'm going for "satire"
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21:57:10 <Taneb> Or possibly "spam"
21:57:17 <Bike> nice they spell it "barkz"
21:58:10 <Bike> ais523: what's their alleged plan?
21:58:37 <ais523> Fiora: it's even better than that
21:58:48 <ais523> it apparently involves doing something that reduces the bandwidth load on Google's servers, without telling Google
21:58:51 <ais523> then threatening to turn it off
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21:59:01 <ais523> and hoping to be paid to leave it on
21:59:20 <ais523> Fiora: are your brain cells still intact?
21:59:23 <Bike> that's amazing
21:59:24 <Fiora> I mean, like, if that actually worked, they could probably sell it to them
21:59:28 <Fiora> but not by being so um. blackmaily
21:59:46 <Fiora> you say "here google, we patented a way to make your bandwidth 10% lower, want to buy us?"
21:59:53 <ais523> yeah, that makes a lot more sense
21:59:59 <Fiora> not "nyahahaha here is our plan for world domination! pay us 100 billlliliooooon dollars!"
22:00:03 <ais523> especially if they have a working demonstration already
22:00:07 <Bike> y'all lack the dynamicism required in a startup
22:00:30 <itrekkie> the data point in brainfuck isn't reset at the end of a loop, right?
22:00:43 <ais523> it wouldn't be TC if it were
22:00:53 <ais523> as you could never move further from the origin than the total number of > commands in your program
22:01:04 <ais523> (unless you use bignum tape cells)
22:01:06 <kmc> uh unless they are somehow reducing the load dramatically, i think google would rather just buy more servers
22:01:14 <kmc> than rely on some ridiculous third party
22:01:22 <Fiora> well, google buying them
22:01:24 <Fiora> rather than thir product
22:01:31 <kmc> even that seems unlikely
22:01:33 <itrekkie> then all I should need to do is commit a change to the data pointer at the end of the loop?
22:01:38 <Fiora> don't they do that kind of thing all the time?
22:01:45 <Fiora> I mean, like, google gobbles startups every tuesday
22:04:04 <kmc> it depends on how easily they can replicate your technology themselves
22:04:23 <Fiora> and I guess if they have a patent and if google wants their employees or not?
22:06:39 <kmc> Primer is basically call/cc: the movie
22:06:58 <Bike> i'm kind of curious about what method they could possibly have, like,google already does stuff with SPDY
22:08:52 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:09:02 <kmc> is this one of those startups with a "brilliant, disruptive idea" that just needs a few "code ninjas" to make it happen
22:09:22 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:09:39 <kmc> dude a social network for pets is a great idea
22:09:42 <kmc> i had this idea a long time ago
22:09:47 <kmc> also a social network for household appliances
22:09:57 <kmc> like, it's one thing to have a washing machine that tweets at you when your laundry is done
22:10:06 <kmc> but another to have a washing machine that posts to its own wall and can become friends with the toaster
22:10:21 <Fiora> oh gosh now I'm remembering the Brave Little Toaster
22:10:30 <kmc> "Toaster and Bathtub are now: It's Complicated"
22:10:41 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQGtucrJ8hM kmc
22:10:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: goodnight).
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22:11:05 <kmc> http://www.theonion.com/articles/my-computer-totally-hates-me-vs-god-do-i-hate-that,11538/
22:14:47 <kmc> today @CompSciFact is more like @SteveYeggeQuotes
22:14:52 <kmc> kind of disappointed w/ this account
22:16:40 <shachaf> You should start a Twitter account that reviews other Twitter accounts.
22:18:14 <Fiora> how do you add a quote to the thing
22:18:16 <Fiora> because kmc that was perfect
22:18:20 <zzo38> VRC6 square wave can go one more octave lower than 2A03 square wave.
22:18:50 <ais523> Fiora: `addquote insert quote here
22:19:07 <ais523> replace newlines with two spaces
22:19:16 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also qdbformat
22:19:21 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
22:19:42 <kmc> what did i say?
22:19:44 <Fiora> `addquote <kmc> a social network for household appliances <kmc> like, it's one thing to have a washing machine that tweets at you when your laundry is done <kmc> but another to have a washing machine that posts to its own wall and can become friends with the toaster <kmc> "Toaster and Bathtub are now: It's Complicated"
22:19:48 <HackEgo> 932) <kmc> a social network for household appliances <kmc> like, it's one thing to have a washing machine that tweets at you when your laundry is done <kmc> but another to have a washing machine that posts to its own wall and can become friends with the toaster <kmc> "Toaster and Bathtub are now: It's Complicated"
22:19:53 <kmc> glad you liked it :)
22:20:10 <kmc> the spanish language radio station next to my office is playing the same 15 second song clip over and over and over
22:20:15 <kmc> maybe their software crashed
22:20:20 <kmc> maybe they only have the free preview on itunes
22:20:24 <ais523> huh, our learndb is starting to be /useful/?
22:20:27 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs."
22:20:33 <shachaf> I can't believe Fiora violated the qdbformat.
22:20:47 <ais523> hmm, what's with the reverse rabbit at the end?
22:22:18 <Fiora> wait what did I do wrong
22:22:33 <zzo38> I think you omitted one space before <kmc>
22:22:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> a social network for household appliances <kmc> like, it's one thing to have a washing machine that tweets at you when your laundry is done <kmc> but another to have a washing machine that posts to its own wall and can become friends with the toaster <kmc> "Toaster and Bathtub are now: It's Complicated"
22:22:48 <Fiora> `addquote <kmc> a social network for household appliances <kmc> like, it's one thing to have a washing machine that tweets at you when your laundry is done <kmc> but another to have a washing machine that posts to its own wall and can become friends with the toaster <kmc> "Toaster and Bathtub are now: It's Complicated"
22:22:51 <HackEgo> 932) <kmc> a social network for household appliances <kmc> like, it's one thing to have a washing machine that tweets at you when your laundry is done <kmc> but another to have a washing machine that posts to its own wall and can become friends with the toaster <kmc> "Toaster and Bathtub are now: It's Complicated"
22:23:33 * shachaf doesn't like the qdbformat, by the way.
22:23:39 <shachaf> But rules are rules. Right, elliott?
22:23:53 <HackEgo> 308) <zzo38> <elliott> <quintopia> i know it's unusual, but i agree with you both to some extent
22:23:57 <zzo38> Will you use RogueVM? If not, is it because there is not the assembler format yet?
22:24:00 <shachaf> Just look at that. Three spaces?
22:24:01 <Bike> why is the qdbformat even a thing
22:24:22 <shachaf> `addquote <Bike>why is the qdbformat even a thing
22:24:25 <HackEgo> 933) <Bike>why is the qdbformat even a thing
22:24:30 <zzo38> shachaf: One space for before message, one space is the message, two space after a message, I think.
22:24:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thachaf: not found
22:25:11 <HackEgo> *poof* <Bike>why is the qdbformat even a thing
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22:27:05 <zzo38> Which is the IRC channel in Freenode for roguelike game? Maybe they should learn RogueVM, maybe they know better also to make the suggestion and whatever else.
22:27:18 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/"$//' wisdom/brainfuck
22:27:23 <Bike> I think there's #nethack
22:27:28 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
22:27:40 <oerjan> (yeah i know it would have been simpler to use `learn)
22:27:43 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:28:33 <zzo38> Do you know if standard Nethack uses features which are not compatible with RogueVM? I know ADOM does have a few.
22:28:35 <oerjan> <shachaf> Just look at that. Three spaces? <-- perhaps they both made a message with a single space.
22:28:46 <shachaf> oerjan: No, they made a message with no spaces.
22:28:48 <Bike> I don't know what RogueVM is.
22:28:54 -!- augur has joined.
22:28:59 <shachaf> Wait, can you do that in IRC?
22:29:00 <zzo38> Empty message result in 412 error, you cannot message with nothing.
22:29:05 <shachaf> Maybe those quotes are WRONG!
22:29:10 <zzo38> Try it if you don't believe me.
22:29:36 <oerjan> i have _seen_ messages with no space, so...
22:30:08 <zzo38> Bike: http://zzo38comptuer.org/roguevm/roguevm.dvi (and roguevm.tex for source file)
22:30:27 <oerjan> hm or maybe it's just putty that doesn't distinguish them
22:30:40 <kmc> s/comptuer/computer/ ?
22:30:55 <Bike> oh yep that did it.
22:30:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/roguevm/roguevm.dvi
22:31:55 <shachaf> Do you have one of those fancy DNS servers that gives you advertisements when it can't resolve a name?
22:32:14 <Bike> If I say yes will I be able to use "404" in a more casual manner in the future and be understood
22:32:33 <kmc> i think it's pretty confusing to do so
22:32:58 <zzo38> If you have one of those, it cause problem what you should do is find the IP address it uses, and write the DNS driver to have an option to detect that and cause it to return nothing instead.
22:35:51 <zzo38> Therefore, maybe I should add such an option in the network setting menu when I make up that computer.
22:36:05 <Bike> some of this seems kind of weird. like why are tile names 28 octets but also null terminated.
22:36:44 <zzo38> However such an option should also be available in Linux, maybe.
22:37:26 <zzo38> Bike: Well, I suppose it could be terminated after 28 octets automatically too, but I wanted to make it null terminated so that a C prorgam that loads it does not have to add its own null terminator in that case.
22:37:56 <Bike> well i mean, why specify 28 octets if it can just be null terminated anyway.
22:38:45 <zzo38> Which page are you refering to?
22:40:08 <zzo38> The reason is so that the records have a fixed size.
22:41:18 <zzo38> I thought that was obvious. Isn't it?
22:41:32 <Bike> guess i'm not paying enough attention
22:49:04 <Sgeo> "Tangent: the occasional truthiness of false is a case study in the pitfalls of language design. It stems from the interaction of two bad decisions. First, we have the implicit coercion of any type to a boolean - a nasty C legacy. Then we have primitive types, which leads to (non-transparent) autoboxing. Since any object is truthy, and autoboxing false creates an object, you can end up with an automatic, hidden conversion that interprets fals
22:49:11 <Sgeo> When does Javascript decide that false is truthy?
22:51:56 <zzo38> Some of the features of ADOM that are not supported in RogueVM includes, holding down the space-bar to win money at the slot machine, and the area where you cannot enter unless you have already played this game a few times, and the default names.
22:52:08 <zzo38> Sgeo: I think when you write something like (new Boolean(False))
22:54:24 <zzo38> Bike: Is there anything else you find wrong in the RogueVM or right or whatever question, or if something is unclear I should make it more clearly?
22:55:16 <Bike> i'm not really that interested to look it over closely, but given i didn't realize something as obvious as the thing i don't know that i can be of any hlep
22:56:11 <zzo38> Maybe I should add a ICO directory which is optional and can contain graphics.
22:56:42 <Bike> oh, i was wondering about that. since you said that interpreters can provide graphics if they want, but apparently there's no way to specify such, they just have to guess from the ASCII?
22:57:53 <zzo38> Just guessing from the ASCII is a dumb way; I was thinking, they might be in a separate file, but I think it makes sense to provide default graphics in a ICO directory for that purpose, now.
23:00:20 * Sgeo still doesn't understand gBeta
23:00:26 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try to understand Beta first
23:00:28 <zzo38> But now I am not exactly sure what formats to use for the graphics. The low sixteen bits of the file number could be used for the tile number and the high sixteen bits to indicate the format, I guess. Other than that I am not exactly sure but maybe you or someone have suggestion
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23:06:04 <zzo38> What graphics formats should I specify?
23:06:42 <ais523> zzo38: probably PNG is the best option for that sort of thing nowadays
23:06:50 <ais523> it's widely supported and has the right features
23:07:17 <pikhq> PNM might be more zzo38 though.
23:08:00 <zzo38> Yes, it does, but that isn't quite what I meant. I intended that format data (including icon size, color depth, etc) might be stored using the file number, so that the program can select the one it wants.
23:08:51 <zzo38> PNG is good if you are having the icons separately, but when combining it into something like this it doesn't quite seem properly.
23:09:21 <zzo38> But maybe it is, if you know how it ought to fit with the other things it does too.
23:09:41 <pikhq> Amusingly, you can place arbitrary data in a PNG.
23:11:07 <kmc> PNG has lots of places to steganographically hide data, too
23:11:41 <ion> In addition to the pixel data?
23:12:50 <kmc> PNG file contains a sequence of chunks of various types
23:13:36 <pikhq> Additionally, most all PNG viewers will ignore data at the end of the file.
23:13:50 <kmc> the pixel data itself is a zlib data stream split across one or more IDAT chunks
23:14:03 <kmc> the boundaries of the IDAT chunks are completely arbitrary, they can come anywhere in the zlib stream
23:14:16 <pikhq> Conveniently, ZIP readers are *required* to ignore random data at the beginning of the file.
23:14:22 <ion> I mean, are there other chunks than the pixel data to whom you can add your content without making them invalid or obviously suspicious?
23:14:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, it is used to make self-extracting files, I think.
23:14:39 <pikhq> (this is in part so you can append to a ZIP file by just writing new things to the end)
23:14:45 <kmc> also DEFLATE itself gives plenty of freedom to encode the same data different ways
23:15:00 <kmc> ion: you can add unknown chunk types, that most programs will ignore
23:15:12 <kmc> the chunk type code itself encodes "is it safe to ignore this chunk"
23:15:14 <pikhq> The spec also has a comment chunk type.
23:15:28 <ion> Unknown chunks type is something i’d look at when looking for steganographics. :-P
23:15:30 <kmc> and arbitrary text strings
23:15:48 <pikhq> You could probably also do stego in the filtering.
23:16:07 <kmc> and UTF-8 text strings... plenty of ways to hide data in Unicode as well :)
23:16:11 <pikhq> In PNG, each raster line of the picture has one of 5 filters applied before it gets sent into DEFLATE.
23:16:17 <kmc> yeah, that would be a good way
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23:29:11 <zzo38> I don't think PNG is the right one for this use, if I want that the program may want to select which icon size, color depth, etc, they want to use, by selecting which file is wanted. (If you think this is bad idea you can say why)
23:30:24 <zzo38> RogueVM does support to have extra chunks though, by making files ETC/800????? which are files that a program which doesn't understand, can ignore it.
23:30:51 <Sgeo> Oh woah Eliot Miranda isa ctively involved with Newspeak
23:42:51 <zzo38> So that part is a bit like PNG.
23:44:41 <zzo38> Currenly there are none of ETC/800????? assigned, although if there are some you think should have, I could add it on.
23:49:43 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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23:50:19 <ion> https://github.com/search?q=path%3A.ssh%2Fid_rsa
23:51:45 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:53:23 <kmc> https://github.com/search?q=BEGIN+RSA+PRIVATE+KEY&type=Code&ref=searchresults
23:53:27 <FreeFull> When I search for +"get lost", don't insist on showing me a result that has just lost, and no mention of the word get anywhere
23:54:29 <kmc> thoug, most of these are empty?
23:54:47 <kmc> the number of pages indication is a lie btw
23:54:57 <kmc> it showed 99 but then ran out when i got to page 3
23:55:15 <kmc> today i gotta learn how to use AES-NI
23:55:50 <Jafet> Those are all certificate keys
23:57:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:58:15 -!- augur has joined.
23:58:52 <Jafet> https://google.com/search?q=inurl:.ssh/id_rsa
23:59:11 <kmc> that reminds me, http://www.shodanhq.com/