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00:42:46 <kmc> what's the best chess AI that can run on an ATtiny13 with 64 bytes of RAM under standard time controls?
00:43:11 <kmc> i think this would be more fun than writing a standard chess AI, and would require a lot more knowledge of the game
00:44:45 <oerjan> so, a chess AI that hasn't room to store more than a handful of game boards. check.
00:45:54 <oerjan> (and that's with some clever compression.)
00:47:02 <oerjan> i guess you just need one game board and the ability to store undos to previous positions, to do a minimax thing.
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00:52:07 <kmc> you also have 1kB of read-only code+data
00:52:18 <kmc> well actually you can write to it but sloooooowly and only a limited number of times
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01:15:20 <zzo38> What is standard time controls?
01:17:57 <kmc> don't know
01:18:13 <kmc> FIDE gives "90 minutes for the first 40 moves followed by 30 minutes for the rest of the game with an addition of 30 seconds per move starting from move one"
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02:31:18 <zzo38> Now I made a GEN routine "s3msample" for use with Csound. S3M loop point is one after the end, and I do not know if this is the case with Csound.
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03:10:12 <zzo38> But it does not support Adlib instruments. Perhaps there could be a plugin or UDO which plays Adlib instruments?
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03:29:01 <zzo38> At least what I think would be a good way to design a file browser for UNIX computers would be, is, if you type in some wildcards and push some key to open the file list which you can click the left button to add to the command, and perhaps right button to preview (you can set up the preview command with another key).
03:29:07 <zzo38> What do you think?
03:36:54 * Fiora looks up, sees kmc's chess AI
03:37:29 <Fiora> 64 bytes... I guess you could fit a few bitboards in that
03:39:01 <Fiora> That might be tricky though, I wonder if that's even enough room to store stuff for alpha/beta pruning
03:39:25 <hagb4rd2> zzo038: yes your the ideas are good. but i really don't see why there must be a difference in the behaviour of a file browser and a http browser (for example). indeed i wonder why i need both..
03:39:42 <Fiora> I'd even be worried about running out of just, like, temp space. like doing move generation
03:41:10 <zzo38> hagb4rd2: Well, it is useful for different things, and there are other reasons too, why it should differ in whatever ways.
03:41:39 <kmc> yeah, i think it would be a fun challenge because you would rely a lot more on heuristic tricks rather than tree search
03:41:50 <zzo38> I mean the terminal emulator would load it to allow you to select files and then the files you selected are put in the command line.
03:41:57 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: i dunno. there should be a a good way to browse through any hierarchical grouped data
03:42:15 <Fiora> writing a chess AI sounds like a lot of fun
03:42:24 <kmc> when i was judging students' othello AIs, it seemed that the ones that did reasonably well in very little time were more interesting than the ones that had a competent implementation of alpha-beta minimax that consumed the full available time
03:42:30 <Fiora> I used to do a good bit of chess stuff but I was more interested in the AI than in, like, the actual game ^^;;
03:42:41 <Fiora> othello AIs! I remember that
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03:43:08 <Fiora> there's still a ton of heuristic stuff in tree search though
03:43:21 <Fiora> like so much, I remember reading for days about it
03:43:31 <Fiora> and all the really complicated heuristics for gauging the state of the board
03:43:48 <Fiora> extensions, quiescence search...
03:44:23 <kmc> it would be a fun thing for a hacker con with programmable badges
03:44:23 <Fiora> and the horizon problem <_>
03:44:31 <kmc> to have a thing where you can program a chess AI onto your badge
03:44:36 <kmc> and then it plays against other people you encounter
03:45:04 <Bike> that is just about the nerdiest idea i've ever heard said
03:45:14 <Fiora> my favorite chess AI thing though is nakamura beating rybka in blitz chess
03:45:22 <Fiora> and the horrid way he did it
03:45:31 <Bike> that was awesome
03:45:42 <Bike> assuming you mean the playbook hack thing
03:45:42 <Fiora> ( http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/20186536921/ )
03:46:06 <Fiora> horizon effect abuse, plus 50-move-rule abuse
03:46:14 <zzo38> hagb4rd2: Well, I don't think HTTP really supports hierachical grouped data (although the file being served could be XML or something which does support it), which, the file manager should be difference due to such thing.
03:46:43 <hagb4rd2> i didn't try extensions which enhance the abilities of some browsers to browse files too, but i've heard they're out there
03:47:09 <hagb4rd2> sure there are differences on the technical side
03:47:37 <zzo38> Still I don't think it is such a good idea as a general purpose file browser though, even if a web browser does have a file browser function.
03:48:25 <hagb4rd2> maybe this is due to a kind of a strange meme
03:50:32 <kmc> Fiora: wow, nice
03:51:22 <Fiora> nakamura is terrifying
03:51:29 <Fiora> in a good way of course
03:52:39 <Fiora> the horizon effect is really tricky though with tree search stuff in general
03:52:51 <Fiora> since the AI can keep "putting off" an inevitable doom and make it look like it's not actually coming
03:52:59 <Fiora> but it's hard to prove that it is
03:53:35 <Fiora> @google chess programming wiki horizon effect
03:53:37 <lambdabot> http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Horizon+Effect
04:02:19 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: if no other routes are specified you can access files on a http server in the way their source is organised in files and directories on the server itself. nevertheless you can access all other routes with a string (typically by separating the tree level element names with a slash or sth)
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04:06:02 <hagb4rd2> on the other hand: who is typing urls anyway?
04:07:56 <hagb4rd2> (i know it was my stupid idea :)
04:08:23 <zzo38> I do type URLs sometimes.
04:09:06 <zzo38> However even though with HTTP generally (not always) the directory/filename is the URL, still HTTP doesn't have the option to list the files, so you have to instead output a HTML or XML file or whatever which list them.
04:09:18 <zzo38> But I am usually typing in the URL if I want one.
04:09:30 <kmc> WebDAV probably has a standard way to list them
04:10:18 <zzo38> Maybe it does, I don't know.
04:10:28 <hagb4rd2> that's right. file listing is not allowed by default.. or better say route listing (which could be an option in the future)
04:10:38 <zzo38> If you want file listing, use FTP
04:11:10 <zzo38> And for menus in general, you can use gopher.
04:11:35 <zzo38> Although I suppose you can also use Plan9 protocol for file access is another way.
04:13:13 <zzo38> But if you want file listing, that is what FTP is for, not HTTP.
04:15:00 <hagb4rd2> zzo38: the issue was to provide a sitemap, to enable the user to browse hierarchical grouped data not beeing bounded to "old fashioned ways" beeing aware of where the data is physically stored
04:15:16 <hagb4rd2> i know there is no such standard
04:15:18 <zzo38> In that case, that is what gopher menu is for.
04:17:10 <hagb4rd2> i love the idea to mount anything as device :)
04:17:56 <hagb4rd2> on which i could just navigate like on my filesystem.. that's it
04:18:38 <zzo38> What I think is programs should expose a virtual filesystem (if they have one) in their directory under /proc/
04:19:09 <hagb4rd2> yes that comes closer to what i called a route map
04:19:10 <zzo38> So process ID 666 might have a virtual filesystem under /proc/666/fs/ or something like that.
04:21:58 <zzo38> So they should make it, if you have environment variable XPID for the X process ID, to access X clipboard buffers and stuff like /proc/$XPID/fs/PRIMARY and so on, as if it is like ordinary files.
04:28:14 <hagb4rd2> also this tree should relly be pretty much orgnanized by the logical context rather than by physical storage or sth
04:29:48 <hagb4rd2> so the role in which the user behaves on the system might change the access (or even the structure)
04:32:56 <shachaf> monqy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPdzCZdvBp0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhACtJSCtq4
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04:36:03 <monqy> hi how did i know this would be return to the neverhood
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04:37:32 <monqy> that would explain it
04:37:45 <shachaf> monqy: or was it "bitter experience"
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04:38:01 <monqy> the bitter experience of you telling me to listen to return to the neverhood
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06:11:29 <zzo38> If the sample rate does not mean the delay wanted is an integer number of samples, what is the best way to modify the delay buffer to more closely approxmiate the delay wanted more precisely?
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06:37:34 <zzo38> For example if the delay is 3.5 samples then how to make it closer to 3.5 rather than 3 or 4?
06:42:39 <kmc> apache is now disabling SSL compression by default
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07:07:01 <ifnspifn> if I were to build a program which just takes as input the Godel or "description" number of a Turing machine, along with an input, could the space of input for this program be correctly termed a "programming language"?
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07:07:51 <ifnspifn> Bike: well, would YOU call it a programming language? :P
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07:08:13 <Bike> i'd call it inefficient, have you /seen/ godel-encoded stuff?
07:08:38 <ifnspifn> I have; this isn't a practical project I'm planning on doing
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07:11:11 * Sgeo__ hasn't seen godel-encoded stuff
07:11:39 <Bike> you know how it works, right? code up something to encode strings or w/e and see for yourself
07:11:43 <Bike> hope you have bignums!
07:12:20 <quintopia> godel encoded programs are shorter than brainfuck programs if they use a good encoding
07:14:43 <ifnspifn> Sgeo__: here's the reference I've been using: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoedelNumber.html
07:15:15 <ifnspifn> Bike: I've got a few ideas in mind :D if it works out, I'll share it here
07:15:46 <Bike> ifnspifn: what ideas are those? so far you've just described the standard UTM definition
07:17:08 <ifnspifn> Bike: Well, I was going to go a few levels above just natural numbers, mostly for novelty/interest; in particular, I'm planning on making an interpreter which will read regular english words (e.g. an essay) and return a reasonably large godel number
07:17:36 <Bike> most probably won't correspond to valid programs, you realize
07:18:23 <ifnspifn> for demonstrative purposes, I'll start with some simple machine (Fibonacci, etc) have a dict.txt file and choose adequate words randomly
07:18:44 <ifnspifn> from there it might be the case that I can prune a somewhat sensible selection of words, but that's not necessary
07:19:39 <ifnspifn> if my text-to-natural number converter is flexible enough though, it should be possible to get a meaningful english snippet
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07:23:04 <Bike> any particular reason you're involving godel coding?
07:27:37 <ifnspifn> mostly because it's neat, and an interesting way to represent a TM
07:28:30 <Bike> well it's not just for TMs, it's for arbitrary strings of integers
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07:29:52 <ifnspifn> definitely! I actually started learning about its application to his Incompleteness theorems long before I started programming
07:30:19 <ifnspifn> the numbering system, although far from practical, has always struck me as very elegant
07:30:39 <Bike> you might be interested in looking at optimal coding
07:31:27 <ifnspifn> heh, funny you mention that. I'm currently in an introductory abstract algebra class, and got waaaaay over my head in Shannon's work with groups and coding
07:31:59 <Bike> you can find shannon's big paper on communication online somewhere, though it's a bit old now
07:33:07 <ifnspifn> I'll definitely check it out. I suppose the foundational papers are usually a good place to start, considering how technical the modern coding schemes are
07:33:20 <Bike> stuff like huffman coding is pretty easy to understand
07:33:53 <ifnspifn> oh yeah, I've got most of the basic schemes down
07:34:17 <Bike> shannon's paper is just about information entropy and stuff iirc, fundamental but hasn't changed much
07:34:46 <ifnspifn> this stuff though? *whoosh* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Golay_code
07:35:33 <Bike> things like "twelve-dimensional subspace" aren't nearly as scary as they look. just persevere, it'll make sense soon
07:37:34 <ifnspifn> I know my linear algebra has been neglected for one too many semesters..
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07:38:06 <Bike> maybe you should follow up your godel thing with representing tms as infinite-dimensional matrices, just to practice your linear shit
07:40:51 <ifnspifn> trying to imagine how that representation applies.. an infinite dimensional matrix would correspond to a TM's (potentially) infinite string, where each "digit" is a vector?
07:41:48 <Bike> nah, just to computable functions (note that I'm tired and not thinking this through)
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08:06:00 <Sgeo__> There are plenty of operations such that a `op` a = a + 1 but a `op` non-a is not necessarily a+1
08:06:22 <Sgeo__> f(a, b) = log_2 (2^a + 2^b) is one, but there's another
08:07:15 <Bike> what about f such that f(a,a) = a+1 but f(a,b) = 37
08:09:10 <Sgeo__> Also f(a,b) = a+1 for all a and all b except when a=0 and b=1; f(0,1) = 0
08:09:38 <Sgeo__> Lots of easy ones, but ... there's something more interesting about the two I named, I think
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10:29:30 <FireFly> http://www.pltgames.com/competition/2012/12 cue the brainfuck derivatives
10:36:50 <FreeFull> Does it really list Befunge as a turing tarpit?
10:37:33 <fizzie> fungot: Do you feel like living in a tar pit?
10:37:34 <fungot> fizzie: there is always a dumb fuck?
10:37:55 <fizzie> fungot: There's no call for that sort of language, young ma... uh... bot!
10:37:56 <fungot> fizzie: it doesn't output anything. either it has to
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10:46:56 <FreeFull> http://esolangs.org/wiki/REVERSE This reminds me of unefunge
10:51:10 <fizzie> Unefunge programs tend to be so >a#Eb#Dc#Cd#Be#A_-y.
10:52:27 <fizzie> There are probably really few (if any) bidirectional pieces of code in fungot.
10:52:28 <fungot> fizzie: and subtle cough too, sort of reminiscent of " the little schemer is a good approach
10:52:40 <fizzie> (There are also no semicolons.)
10:53:59 <fizzie> (There are three j's, and they're all jump tables.)
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10:55:25 <Deewiant> fizzie: Your style is too maintainable, you should be crisscrossing all over the place
10:56:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's just because I'm so stuck in the 93s.
10:57:04 <Deewiant> If you were actually stuck in the 93s you'd be forced to crisscross due to having only 80x25 space
10:57:37 <Deewiant> You don't have to use semicolons, in fact it's better if you don't because they make it too easy
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11:27:59 <fizzie> I'm mentally stuck, not physically stuck.
11:28:45 <fizzie> So I just naturally avoid the actually-new features, not things like increased playfield size.
11:28:59 <fizzie> I don't think I have any [] turnings in there either.
11:30:29 <fizzie> It's actually just a combined v and ^.
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12:29:36 <Arc_Koen> being physically stuck in 1993 must be weird
12:30:34 <Arc_Koen> are you somehow sent back one year every year? or do you stay young forever?
12:42:47 <fizzie> I wouldn't know; I'm not stuck that way.
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15:19:03 <shachaf> This is some awful keming on Chromium's part: http://slbkbs.org/keming.png
15:20:44 <Jafet> Is it related to the Farnicorn?
15:21:11 <shachaf> fizzie: The HTML source says Unicorn
15:32:36 * ion shivers at the horribly blurry font rendering in the screenshot
15:37:27 <olsner> hmm, shouldn't horrible keming be good kerning?
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15:56:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: fyi i was sleeping when you said it was tomorrow
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16:41:53 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262018462/
16:46:17 <shachaf> ghc -e 'import System.Random' -e 'putStr . map ("╱╲"!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< newStdGen'
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16:51:27 <ion> > chr 205.5
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16:57:30 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:C64_Petscii_Charts.png
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17:01:40 <kmc> oh i see RND(1) returns a float between 0 and 1
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17:02:28 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/c64-8x8.png I made this once for an "ASCII-compatible" "C64-inspired" "high half is mostly line-drawing" thing.
17:05:20 <fizzie> I've forgotten what the £ is there for.
17:05:40 <fizzie> Some of the last characters are slightly application-specific, too.
17:06:38 <kmc> the book contains an equivalent program written in http://esolangs.org/wiki/PATH as well
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17:29:24 <ion> Yes, that’s what lead to my comment.
17:29:51 <elliott> ion: yes. but then I repeated it!
17:37:00 <shachaf> ion: Oh, they were just being political.
17:43:39 <kmc> ╱╲ ╲ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╲ ╱ ╱ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╱╲
17:43:40 <kmc> ╲ ╲ ╲ ╱ ╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱ ╱ ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱
17:43:55 <kmc> ╱╲ ╲ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╲ ╱ ╱ ╱╲ ╱╲ ╱╲
17:43:56 <kmc> ╲ ╲ ╲ ╱ ╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲ ╲ ╲╱╲ ╲╱╲
17:43:59 <kmc> ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱ ╱ ╲╱ ╲╱ ╱
17:44:09 <fizzie> Oh, I thought those were some kind of runes.
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17:44:18 <kmc> yes they do look runic
17:44:18 <shachaf> Reminded me of Myst or something.
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17:44:40 <FreeFull> I was thinking of a simple maze generator
17:44:44 <elliott> kmc: now make it work on the alphabet too
17:45:04 <FreeFull> A simple way to generate mazes is to randomly print ╱ or ╲
17:45:11 <kmc> FreeFull: WOW REALLY TELL ME MORE
17:45:36 <kmc> (that is what we have been talking about)
17:45:52 <kmc> rigth here
17:45:58 <olsner> I thought you were generating /// programs
17:46:18 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: you can't make them longer on an actual 7 seg display
17:46:32 <shachaf> kmc: Should I go to http://www.meetup.com/Stripe/events/92206302/ ?
17:46:32 <FreeFull> I don't know if all combinations of / and \ are valid /// programs
17:47:04 <shachaf> FreeFull: Also those aren't mazes.
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17:47:19 <kmc> shachaf: shrug
17:47:22 <FreeFull> shachaf: Well, they aren't guaranteed to have a way through
17:47:34 <FreeFull> Or to only have an unique way through
17:48:06 <shachaf> "We're trying something a little different this time: while the hackathon will still be informal and you're welcome to hack on anything you'd like, we're encouraging projects built on top of Stripe Connect (stripe.com/connect)."
17:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> unless maybe you had, like \ on its own at the end of the file
17:48:56 <FreeFull> You can also use "|| __" as the random characters
17:49:59 <shachaf> I use " " as the random characters.
17:50:13 <shachaf> 2004 THREE-PER-EM SPACE [ ]
17:50:13 <shachaf> 2005 FOUR-PER-EM SPACE [ ]
17:50:17 <shachaf> 2008 PUNCTUATION SPACE [ ]
17:50:25 <shachaf> Hmm, those lines were supposed to merge into one super-line.
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17:50:30 <kmc> shachaf: you should make a brainfuck derivative
17:50:48 <fizzie> shachaf: What, no 205F MEDIUM MATHEMATICAL SPACE?
17:51:02 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm racist against mathematicians.
17:51:07 <kmc> space has a terrible power
17:51:19 <fizzie> 3035 IDEOGRAPHIC HALF FILL SPACE
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17:51:56 <FreeFull> shachaf: They all look like a single space to me
17:52:15 <shachaf> FreeFull: Maybe you should put on your 3D glasses then.
17:52:44 <kmc> they are all a single space
17:52:53 <kmc> each of abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz is a single letter
17:53:22 <shachaf> I once heard U and I were together.
17:53:33 <shachaf> But I guess that was just a rumour.
17:53:44 <fizzie> OGHAN SPACE MARK is in the Zs "Separator, Space" category even though it has a line right through it.
17:54:20 <fizzie> And the ETHIOPIC WORDSPACE is two dots, but at least it's Punctuation, Other.
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17:55:26 <FreeFull> kmc: abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz don't look the same though
17:55:40 <kmc> well the spaces won't look the same either
17:55:43 <kmc> if you have the right font
17:55:56 <FreeFull> I'm in a terminal. Monospace fonts only
17:56:03 <kmc> there's yer problem
17:56:04 <shachaf> kmc: In NetHack I used a configuration option that remapped ghosts to Xs
17:57:02 <fizzie> shachaf: The MONGOLIAN VOWEL SEPARATOR is also whitespace, but at least it's empty.
17:57:54 <shachaf> fizzie: I THINK YOU MEAN personspace
17:58:05 <kmc> i'm still not clear on why all those emoji made it into unicode
17:58:40 <kmc> how do they draw the line between "a nonstandard character encoding with a bunch of new characters" and "a strange binary encoding for both characters and certain graphics"
18:00:04 <kmc> i'm going to invent ISO-8859-GOATSE where every codepoint above 0x7F is goatse
18:00:14 <pikhq_> Committee members debate it, basically.
18:00:29 <pikhq_> ... So, you'll probably not get that through unless you can convince people it should be done.
18:00:41 <pikhq_> In this case, Apple and Google proposed the emoji set initially.
18:01:11 <kmc> i thought they came from japanese mobile phone companies
18:01:23 <kmc> who were already using these characters in nonstandard encodings
18:01:31 <pikhq_> That's who made the characters in nonstandard encodings.
18:01:40 <pikhq_> Google and Apple are the ones who wanted them in standard encodings.
18:01:41 <kmc> i see, and apple and google pushed for them to become part of the UCS
18:01:50 <kmc> because they want to be able to compete in japan
18:02:01 <kmc> nobody will use Android if they can't text their friend a PILE OF POO
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18:09:20 <Bike> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4644 hey, rapido showed up on LtU!
18:10:52 <shachaf> elliott: That's an innovative GHC switch, don't you think?
18:13:47 <elliott> Bike: "I'm not sure what the goal (or point) of this document is, and how you evaluate whether it accomplished it or not."
18:15:32 <Bike> apparently he wants a language with no runtime exceptions
18:16:17 <elliott> well, that's just a total language
18:16:33 <shachaf> elliott: You know the thing where State = Reader + Writer?
18:16:37 <elliott> you can, of course, represent division in such a language just fine... by giving it a proper type
18:17:22 <Bike> somehow i don't think he understands that
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18:26:56 <kmc> (/) :: (Num a, MonadPlus m) => a -> a -> m a
18:28:44 <elliott> or even div :: Nat -> PosNat -> Nat etc.
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18:36:50 <kmc> div :: Nat -> (d :: Nat) -> Positive d -> Nat
18:37:08 <kmc> look at all the types i know
18:37:22 <Bike> i'm a bit curious what he even means by "destroying information"
18:37:29 <elliott> kmc: not the best infix operator
18:37:32 <Bike> like, is 14/2 supposed to be distinct from 7?
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18:54:40 <nooodl_> Bike: i think he just means, "x * 0 = 0 is bad"
18:54:53 <kmc> "0 but true"
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18:56:32 <Bike> nooodl_: yeah but i'm trying to put more thought into it than he did
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20:09:37 <oerjan> <Bike> i'd call it inefficient, have you /seen/ godel-encoded stuff?
20:10:55 <oerjan> you _can_ encode things more compactly than using prime factorization exponents, if you want. it's just that prime factorization exponents is intuitive to think about, even if not efficient.
20:11:42 <Bike> not for me, but of course that's very subjective
20:12:09 <oerjan> in fact we had a discussion some years ago about how to encode brainfuck programs bijectively to numbers, and you had to choose the coding carefully to avoid short programs giving huge blowup. but it is possible.
20:12:20 <elliott> did we ever come up with a viable encoding
20:14:08 <oerjan> i think so. wasn't there this fibonacci base encoding of a list?
20:14:57 <oerjan> basically you took each value, wrote it in fibonacci base, interspersed 11 between them (which cannot occur in fibonacci base) and interpreted _that_ as binary.
20:15:14 <oerjan> it's reasonably balanced between the list elements, naturally.
20:15:42 <elliott> oerjan: um that doesn't work for a bijection does it
20:15:54 <oerjan> *fibonacci base beginning with 1 and ending with 0
20:16:57 <oerjan> i think there were some small details that needed to be just right to make it a bijection
20:17:36 <oerjan> or wait maybe you just interspersed 1
20:17:44 <oerjan> since they were already beginning with 1
20:18:05 <oerjan> and to reverse, you broke up the binary at strings of several 1's
20:19:29 <oerjan> hm that encoding may have had some trouble with deep nesting, though.
20:20:08 <oerjan> since there's a constant multiple of approxim. phi/2 for each level
20:22:01 <zzo38> I think I have had ideas about some encoding of brainfuck programs with natural numbers.
20:22:05 <zzo38> Maybe you could have that since all high bits are zero, they correspond to [] at beginning of the program, might be able to make it bijective.
20:26:53 <oerjan> ifnspifn: you might also be interested in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran
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20:34:58 <oerjan> <FreeFull> I don't know if all combinations of / and \ are valid /// programs
20:35:16 <atriq> "\" on its own isn't, I don't think?
20:35:22 <ifnspifn> oerjan: Fractran's nuts... thanks for sharing!
20:35:39 <oerjan> sure they are. there's a "if you don't have a complete command the program halts" rule.
20:35:47 <oerjan> ifnspifn: you're welcome!
20:36:22 <oerjan> and of course only the current command is parsed at all, since the rest can be changed at any time.
20:37:16 * pikhq_ randomly notes that fopencookie is a neat interface
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21:24:36 <elliott> fizzie: You should help me get IPv6 working!!!
21:28:04 <fizzie> elliott: I can not fathom why it would not work. Does it work from irssi at all? If you, say, "/connect -6 -network Freenode chat.eu.freenode.net 6667".
21:28:27 <elliott> fizzie: Well, what I did from telnet was SSL-less.
21:28:35 <elliott> I guess I could set my irssi to non-SSL for a bit.
21:29:01 <fizzie> That /connect with explicit 6667 port should be SSL-less.
21:29:24 <elliott> Will that do my autojoins and so on?
21:30:50 <zzo38> Maybe you have to run the autojoin macro manually after connecting?
21:32:00 <fizzie> elliott: I think with -network Freenode it should work just as if you would have added a temporary server to the Freenode network.
21:32:07 <fizzie> But I'm certainly un-sure.
21:32:14 <elliott> fizzie: I have to manually disconnect before doing that, right?
21:32:20 <elliott> Or it'll try to connect to both servers at the same time or something.
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21:35:42 <fizzie> I would be scared, too.
21:36:42 <elliott> fizzie: You should try it!
21:43:05 <shachaf> elliott: Colenses are "pretty exciting huh"
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21:44:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Bulb, by the way.
21:45:15 <atriq> elliott, did you start the fortress yet
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21:45:38 <elliott> I'm waiting for fizzie to try it.
21:45:45 <fizzie> atriq: How could he, with the IPv6 problem still unfixed? It's unthinkable.
21:46:38 <fizzie> Everything would catch flame.
21:46:47 <atriq> I thought IPv6 didn't exist in the UK or something
21:47:07 <elliott> fizzie: It'll be exciting!
21:50:11 <fizzie> I foresee a problem here.
21:50:22 <shachaf> ion: would i be a better person if i acquired ftl
21:50:40 <fizzie> Perhaps it would be best to nip it off in the bud.
21:50:57 <oerjan> (nothing like merging the conversations, right?)
21:51:25 <ion> shachaf: No, but everyone else would be worse, so it would be a net win for you.
21:51:54 <fizzie> I want to say "killer", but I'm afraid it might have negative social consequences.
21:52:51 <shachaf> ion: Do I need OpenGL for it?
21:53:56 <ion> shachaf: yes
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21:58:25 <zzo38> fizzie: I think you need not worry about those kind of social consequences in this specific circumstances.
22:06:01 <fizzie> No can do, I am suddenly busy with various important matters.
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22:15:59 <oerjan> a sudden urge to hide the bodies better
22:20:28 <zzo38> Can you disguise them?
22:21:00 <oerjan> i mean fizzie's sudden urge. to avoid negative social consequences, you see.
22:26:36 <zzo38> Well, in Dungeons&Dragons game I have idea what to do with the chancellor's dead body, which includes both disguising it and hiding it, and casting a spell on myself to forget it.
22:28:35 <zzo38> Therefore, I think hiding the bodies is not sufficient, live or dead.
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22:59:19 <atriq> Why is my room so cold
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23:02:23 <olsner> atriq: winter is coming
23:03:37 <olsner> also, because your country hasn't invented insulation yet
23:04:18 <olsner> (tip: Alt-F4 usually closes the window)
23:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, that's not even consistent on the command line
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23:15:23 <zzo38> I sometimes use Ubuntu computer in FreeGeek, so I know at least in Ubuntu, close window is ALT+F4 like in Windows.
23:16:00 <fizzie> ^w closes some windows too.
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23:34:57 <oerjan> no, temperature, you're _not_ allowed to drop below -10 celsius :(
23:35:34 <pikhq_> I've been waiting for it to drop below 0°C here...
23:35:38 <pikhq_> (this is a weird ass winter)
23:36:32 <fizzie> Foreca is forecasting -21°C for the Sun-Mon night.
23:37:59 <fizzie> Daily highs go -12, -9, -6 -14, -11, -7, -7, -6, -4, -5 in the ten-day forecast, that's not so cold.
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23:38:50 <pikhq_> At that point just start doing it in Kelvin.
23:39:11 <Fiora> Wikipedia says it's 33-55K
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23:39:24 <oerjan> pluto is having a heat wave?
23:40:13 <Bike> pluto doesn't have an atmosphere worth talking about, right?
23:40:32 <Bike> so no climate. sucks
23:40:32 <Fiora> "Pluto's atmosphere consists of a thin envelope of nitrogen, methane, and carbon monoxide gases, which are derived from the ices of these substances on its surface.[89] Its surface pressure ranges from 6.5 to 24 μbar."
23:40:56 <Fiora> the pressure is about like 0.15-0.3 pascal
23:41:10 <Fiora> accordnig to like, different measurements >_>;
23:41:15 <Fiora> I'm guessing new horizons will make things a lot more certain
23:41:19 <Bike> well it's not like we've been there
23:41:27 <Fiora> they did it with observations of occultations with stars
23:41:28 <Bike> (by "we" i am referring to our robot slaves)
23:41:42 <Bike> yeah, i know, but that's not as accurate as just flying a barometer out there, is it
23:41:51 <oerjan> maybe our robot slaves will revolt and send us there.
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23:42:01 <Bike> one can only hope
23:42:04 <Fiora> I don't think we're actually putting the spaceship in the atmosphere XD
23:42:16 <Bike> boooooriiiiing
23:42:28 <Bike> i wanna see if arnold's cousin's corpse is actually there, from magic school bus
23:42:38 <oerjan> yeah you need to bore deeply to get to the interesting parts
23:43:09 <oerjan> magic school bus had deaths?
23:43:23 <Bike> that's what we need new horizons to find out
23:44:03 <oerjan> mind you i think i may have seen approx. 1/2 episode of that show.
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23:47:18 <elliott> 23:39:04 <Fiora> only -74?
23:47:21 <Fiora> space probes are so cool, I'll finally be able to actually live through one exploring the outer planets
23:47:21 <elliott> Fiora: i didn't specify units!!
23:47:33 <Fiora> I mean I was alive with Galileo but I was really young
23:48:13 <Fiora> and voyager 2 passed neptune the year before I was born
23:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember reading a book about space when i was little and there was a thing about cassini
23:52:43 <Phantom_Hoover> when it actually reached saturn i was like "holy shit it's the future!"
23:55:29 <Fiora> wow I totally forgot about that one
23:55:45 * pikhq_ randomly notes that Planck temperature is perhaps the hardest to actually *use* temperature scale.
23:55:58 <Fiora> I remember the pictures it took and everything
23:55:59 <Bike> planck temperature is some absurdly high thing, right
23:56:02 <Fiora> and all the news about Titan
23:56:09 <pikhq_> 0 Planck temp = 0 K. 1 Planck temp ~= 1.4*10^8 YK.
23:56:19 <pikhq_> Bike: Yes. It's in yottakelvin.
23:56:26 <Bike> an oft-used unit right there
23:56:31 <Fiora> the planck temperature is where they hypotheize grand unification right?
23:56:36 <pikhq_> I'd use a larger SI prefix but they don't exist.
23:56:54 <pikhq_> Fiora: Among other things.
23:57:12 <zzo38> Combine SI prefixes if it is really necessary (even though you are not supposed to combine them)
23:57:30 <olsner> bah, it's not even a gigayottakelvin
23:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought planck units were just where the theory totally breaks down
23:57:37 <pikhq_> It's about 0.14 gigayottakelvin.
23:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> not necessarily where some physically-significant thing happens
23:57:50 <zzo38> I have used "decimicron" before, which is short for "decimicrometre"
23:57:52 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Yuh. And then people guess what that means.
23:58:21 <pikhq_> With no justification, because why figure shit out when you can speculate. ;)
23:58:23 <elliott> obviously what this proves is that 1.4*10^8 yottas is the biggest number ever
23:58:28 <elliott> ultrafinitism proven by physics
23:58:38 <zzo38> And there are also some units that I don't like, such as "tonne", so we can use "megagram" instead, for example.
23:58:48 <Jafet> 10^3 K: weld; 10^6 K: fusion; 10^32: grand unification?
23:58:57 <elliott> Fiora: have you ever SEEN an attoparsec
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23:59:12 <Bike> wait, wait, wait, i thought that at least some of the planck units do correspond to physical things, like with energy quantification and all
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23:59:27 <pikhq_> Beheheh. The peak wavelength emitted by a black body radiator at Planck temperature is also Planck length.
23:59:43 <zzo38> "Kilokilogram" can be used too, but "kilo" is already the SI prefix for "gram" (even though "kilogram" is considered the base unit)
23:59:48 <Fiora> I think um... 1TeV is roughly equal to 11 petakelvins
23:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oi elliott use your dvds and find out what the biggest number is
00:00:01 <Fiora> so like the LHC gets like 11 petakelvins
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00:00:21 <Fiora> elliott: I'm roughly 50.5 attoparsecs tall! seeeee
00:00:29 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5054356894457127152
00:00:55 <zzo38> "Tonne" is confusing with "ton" so I think "tonne" should not be used.
00:00:58 <elliott> Fiora: i think this means you may actually be shorter than me
00:01:33 <pikhq_> Bike: Well, the derived Planck units are often quite reasonable.
00:01:50 <pikhq_> Bike: For instance, 1 Planck impedence is about 30 ohms.
00:02:21 <Fiora> elliott: wait how tall are you
00:02:45 <pikhq_> 4.63309e113 Pa? Jesus.
00:02:46 <oerjan> `frink 1 attoparsec -> m
00:02:51 <elliott> i am like 5 feet 1 inch or something
00:02:57 <elliott> maybe i grew since the last time i figured that out
00:03:28 <zzo38> Another thing you can do other than use metres and so on, is if the other units are wrong size, use other base units. So, such things as lightyear and so on, etc.
00:03:40 <pikhq_> 0.4 petayottayottayottayottapascal?
00:03:57 <pikhq_> 0.4 PYYYYPa is awesome.
00:03:58 <Fiora> an attoparsec is like 3cm
00:04:11 <Fiora> attoparsec per microfortnight is the best though :3
00:04:23 <pikhq_> Bit over an inch? Huh.
00:04:25 <Bike> about a foot per second or something, right?
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00:05:46 <Fiora> it's like a cm/s I think
00:06:01 <olsner> iirc, a lightnanosecond is about a foot
00:08:16 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
00:11:48 <pikhq_> Huh. Planck charge is also fairly reasonable. About 12 times larger than the elementary charge.
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00:13:24 <Bike> the charge of an electron
00:13:30 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: No, the elementary charge is the magnitude of the charge of an electron.
00:13:32 <Bike> is called the "elementary charge"
00:13:50 <pikhq_> It's reasonable in many contexts.
00:15:08 <pikhq_> It's still more reasonable than most of the Planck units... I mean, shit, there's an SI prefix for that one. :P
00:16:57 <Fiora> planck impedance: 29.979 ohms?
00:17:31 <Fiora> there's a planck momentum too, it's not big
00:17:38 <Fiora> I wonder what the planck magnetic field is
00:18:17 <pikhq_> Magnetic flux density?
00:18:22 <Fiora> 2.15 * 10^53 teslas says a quick google? ohgod
00:18:32 <Fiora> "215000 yottayottateslas"
00:18:46 <fizzie> HTK's timestamps are in units of 0.1 microseconds. I've always presumed it's because it's accurate enough for each sample of 16 kHz audio to have an integer time in those units (unlike microseconds; one sample is 62.5 us), but nanoseconds would've resulted in too large numbers.
00:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i think that's above the point where maxwell's equations go to hell and the vacuum becomes polarised
00:19:08 <Fiora> I think that happens at like, about 10^40 times less? XD
00:19:12 <elliott> polarised, n. really cold (it's cold at the north and south pole)
00:19:20 <Bike> "megasecond" is my favorite usual unit, i think
00:19:20 <zzo38> Or just make up new prefixes.
00:19:47 <zzo38> Someone once told me, they read they wanted to add another prefix "heva"
00:19:59 <olsner> fizzie: might also be that they stole their time unit from windows
00:20:01 <Bike> wasn't there a petition to make "hella" official, or something
00:20:06 * oerjan swats elliott for confusing nouns and adjectives -----###
00:20:54 <olsner> n., n. separator between dictionary entries and their definitions
00:21:09 <zzo38> I don't want "zeppo" because it is similar to "zepto"
00:21:10 <oerjan> well if we have hella, then clearly the opposite prefix should be heava
00:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> it may have been in either the feedback or letters sections of the new scientist
00:21:48 <zzo38> I think they wanted "heva" one above "yotta" although I am unsure.
00:21:51 <fizzie> olsner: I suppose it's possible, though I don't think it's a very Windows-oriented piece of software.
00:22:14 <fizzie> I've seen at least one "serious-looking" SI extension proposal.
00:22:34 <Fiora> they have to add bitsy too
00:22:38 <Fiora> so then you can have an itsybitsymeter
00:22:38 <olsner> itsy-, bitsy-, teeny- and weeny-
00:22:44 <pikhq_> http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11984 *grin*
00:22:47 <elliott> oerjan: fuck you i'm a disctionary
00:22:49 <Fiora> an itsybitsy spider would be very small indeed
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00:23:02 <zzo38> But I am OK if you want to add other prefixes, whether it is "groucho" or whatever else
00:23:17 <oerjan> elliott: is that like a book using discworld spelling conventions?
00:23:44 <elliott> oerjan: who publsiehs the definitions around here
00:24:08 <zzo38> There is also "myria" not used much anymore, although it is a metric prefix for a myriad (ten thousand).
00:25:30 <pikhq_> Be handy for CJK folk.
00:25:50 <pikhq_> (CJK all group numbers in myriads.)
00:26:47 <zzo38> Yes, I know that too.
00:27:02 <Bike> oh, that's probably where knuth got the idea, isn't it.
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00:27:36 <zzo38> At least I think so.
00:28:12 <fizzie> "Angstro" has been suggested for 10^(-10). Perhaps to get rid of ångström as a separate unit. (It even has the "m" there.)
00:28:59 <zzo38> I think it would be OK.
00:29:56 <fizzie> (Don't know whether the suggestion kept the diacritics. At least å would be free for abbreviations.)
00:30:27 <zzo38> Yes, and then "angstrom" becomes short for "angstrometer". But yes you should use the lowercase a with ring above for this prefix (uppercase A with ring above is angstrom)
00:31:14 <zzo38> Make a list of these things.
00:31:36 <fizzie> Then you also have 1 åÅ = 10 zm.
00:32:00 <zzo38> I suppose it does allow you to do that although I do not think it would be a good idea.
00:32:23 <fizzie> One ångströångström does sound a bit silly.
00:32:42 * pikhq_ approves of the ångströångström
00:33:35 <pikhq_> Though maybe that should be "ö¨å" (can't be bothered to find the combining char)
00:34:20 <elliott> > The excuse for not fixing this does not make sense.
00:34:21 <elliott> What doesn't make sense is you.
00:34:21 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:52: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
00:34:33 <oerjan> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_(m%C3%A5tt)
00:34:34 <olsner> you mean an å with a diaeresis?
00:35:11 <olsner> oh, 1 fat is 480 osmunds ... pretty thin fella this Osmund
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00:35:37 <zzo38> What is the equation for the Railsback curve?
00:35:56 <pikhq_> olsner: Needs both, clearly, as otherwise that'd be a diphthong.
00:36:32 <olsner> not really, since öå doesn't become a diphtong in the first place
00:37:26 <oerjan> olsner: unless you're very drunk
00:37:47 <pikhq_> I will diäresisize all vowels that are adjacent!
00:38:21 <oerjan> föå en öål til föår föan
00:39:45 <oerjan> olsner: or from skåne, probably
00:39:52 <pikhq_> Which is why it's "oërjan" not "Ørjan". >:D
00:41:05 <nooodl__> does this: "å̈" look fine to you guys
00:41:16 <oerjan> nooodl__: excellent plain a, there
00:41:18 <Bike> no, it looks like you have some kind of growth on your head there
00:41:31 <nooodl__> it's supposed to be... an a with an ö above it, essentially
00:42:36 <pikhq_> nooodl__: That composed poorly.
00:44:13 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&safe=off&tbo=d&site=&source=hp&q=sk%C3%B6%C3%A5ne&oq=sk%C3%B6%C3%A5ne&gs_l=hp.3...122718.172765.0.173062.7.7.0.0.0.0.219.750.3j2j1.6.0...0.0...1c.1.T-0dj36Ttyc gives a bit of hits
00:49:13 <elliott> ion: I think he meant rwbarton?
00:50:17 <ion> <shachaf> Unless someone like ion wants to do it.
00:50:28 <ion> Dunno whom he meant, but i was asking about it in response to that. :-)
00:50:46 <olsner> "someone like ion" might refer to you
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01:40:08 <n2liquid> Do you guys sometimes discuss about practical (albeit experimental) programming languages?
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01:41:19 <olsner> there's some Finnish too, but opinions differ as to wether that counts as a language at all
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01:41:53 <olsner> ... shachaf started it
01:42:06 <oerjan> if haskell counts, then we do.
01:42:25 <n2liquid> Ok, Haskell; what about new programming languages?
01:42:26 <oerjan> also some have had less esoteric projects, i recall Gregor's plof
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01:42:32 <pikhq_> n2liquid: Well, it's not esoteric programming, so *yes*.
01:42:44 <n2liquid> Or languages that extrapolate concepts like object orientation
01:43:39 <n2liquid> Especially not stuff that's too focused on mathematical concepts
01:43:49 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
01:44:39 <n2liquid> oerjan, is plof on the esolang wiki?
01:44:56 <oerjan> no, because it's not esoteric
01:45:11 <oerjan> well, _maybe_ it's linked from Gregor's user page.
01:45:27 <pikhq_> n2liquid: Plof is more a research language than anything else.
01:45:28 <Sgeo> Oh, practicaal?
01:45:31 <oerjan> glass is OO, esoteric, and also gregor's :)
01:46:56 <oerjan> http://plof.codu.org/wiki/
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01:52:11 <zzo38> We do discuss experiemental programming and stuff too sometimes
01:53:11 <n2liquid> I've been munching some concepts for a programming language for some time now
01:53:28 <zzo38> Although I suppose we also sometimes discuss completely different things too
01:53:28 <oerjan> i recall edwardk had a language project when he came here, although i think he's gravitated towards "everything fits better into haskell"? also everything edwardk is by definition the opposite of "not stuff that's too focused on mathematical concepts".
01:54:17 <oerjan> in the same way, some haskellers seem to go on to agda.
01:54:22 <n2liquid> It's nothing bat-crazy like what's often explored in academic research projects or esoteric languages
01:55:41 <Sgeo> Has there been any work on Plof recently?
01:55:54 <Sgeo> Mostly, I just want to read awesome documentation, even if the language isn't well implemented
01:56:05 <Gregor> Why hallo thar, people talking about me >_>
01:56:17 <oerjan> well the fythe VM for it was worked on in february, at least, i see
01:56:33 <Gregor> Fythe was last poked at a few months ago.
01:56:45 <Gregor> It's possible that I'm currently contractually obligated not to touch it, so I'm not :)
01:57:22 <Gregor> Just for two more weeks now *shrugs*
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01:57:50 <Gregor> The Fythe engine works great, and I have some neato ideas for making it work better, I just haven't bothered to finish porting Plof to it yet.
01:58:13 <Gregor> What with my being distracted by silly irrelevant stuff like pursuing a PhD and making money and watching ponies.
01:58:14 <oerjan> any relation to your ioccc entry? :P
02:00:33 <Gregor> Lest it's not obvious, my IOCCC entry has no practical application whatsoever. Anything to make it not suck would also make it unportable, defeating the whole purpose.
02:02:30 <Bike> what entry is this?
02:02:50 <n2liquid> What do you guys think about LLVM?
02:03:18 <Gregor> Bike: http://www.ioccc.org/years.html#2011_richards
02:05:14 <Bike> well that's... impressive
02:06:20 <zzo38> I happen to like LLVM, although I also think some things missing, such as supporting bytes other than 8-bits, and supporting ARM2
02:07:50 <n2liquid> I know I wouldn't be into programming language design without LLVM
02:08:17 <Bike> is the point of all this preprocessor stuff to make the source resemble dc code
02:11:29 <ion> gregor: Is there a description of how the JIT is done somewhere?
02:14:04 <Gregor> ion: The description was in your heart all along.
02:18:51 <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing
02:19:08 <Fiora> it manages to hide the opcodes and stuff too, wow
02:25:33 <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:29:35 <oerjan> `addquote <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:29:38 <HackEgo> 859) <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:30:12 <shachaf> elliott: Two spaces are the devil. :-(
02:30:18 <oerjan> elliott: i checked with `quote, and the first example that came up had only one
02:30:32 <elliott> oerjan: two spaces between the first two messages, I mean
02:30:40 <shachaf> kmc: The GHC inliner is annoying me. :-(
02:30:55 <shachaf> I should probably read that one paper, _Secrets of the GHC Inliner_.
02:30:56 <HackEgo> 683) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
02:31:03 <HackEgo> 341) <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! <CakeProphet> I have the weirdest boner right now.
02:31:27 <HackEgo> 43) <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
02:31:45 <HackEgo> *poof* <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:31:52 <oerjan> `addquote <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:31:55 <HackEgo> 859) <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:32:16 <Bike> wait, why did you do that
02:32:40 <oerjan> ion: the rules for [...] are even more complicated.
02:32:50 <ion> You should use “ ” and see if anyone notices.
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02:34:04 <oerjan> Bike: elliott is a space nazi
02:34:14 <oerjan> we don't want to annoy him
02:34:26 <elliott> Bike: the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:34:27 <ion> Like in Iron Sky?
02:35:03 <shachaf> `addquote <elliott>bike:the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:35:06 <HackEgo> 860) <elliott>bike:the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:35:09 <Bike> i was just about to do that
02:35:19 <Bike> i'm so uncreative.
02:35:34 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott>bike:the formatting rules shall not be broken
02:35:37 <oerjan> what is an appropriate THAT'S THE JOKE link?
02:35:49 <Bike> the simpson's clip?
02:36:29 <oerjan> i guess that is the top google hit
02:36:36 <kmc> shachaf: inliner? i hardly know her!
02:36:37 <Bike> i'm going to pretend that apostrophe was supposed to be there. "The Simpson" is a nickname of a bigfoot-like internet legend, known for posting photographs of firearms with jokes engraved on them.
02:36:49 <oerjan> ion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
02:37:37 <elliott> fizzie: what was that connect command again
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02:49:03 <c00kiemon5ter> oh, it's december o.O late happy new month people o/
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02:50:36 <zzo38> Yes, is December now, and is Advent tomorrow, I think.
02:50:44 <shachaf> Finland isn't real, elliott.
02:50:52 <shachaf> Do you actually know anyone who's ever been there?
02:51:01 <pikhq_> Finland is drunk Japan. No more, no less.
02:51:25 <pikhq_> Well, when you're drunk... :P
02:51:31 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
02:51:39 <zzo38> I added some commands in my Csound plugin, including "meanfilter", "multiguide", "pairecho", etc
02:52:06 <oerjan> it would appear the bus has got lost
02:52:31 <zzo38> The "pairecho" command makes two delay lines which are allowed to interfere with each other and the amount of interference and output levels can be adjusted at x-rate.
02:52:39 * oerjan tried to read pairecho as something latino
02:52:54 <zzo38> Why? Do you speak Latino?
02:53:05 <Bike> ladino's cool.
02:53:17 <oerjan> ...it looks vaguely spanish.
02:53:31 <Sgeo> monqy, elliott Fiora
02:53:33 <pikhq_> Nah, oerjan only speaks onital.
02:53:34 <zzo38> It is meant to be English.
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03:00:39 <elliott> Alright, I got insecure IPv6 working.
03:00:44 -!- elliott has changed nick to Guest55032.
03:01:04 <shachaf> imo Guest55034 > Guest55032
03:01:19 -!- Guest55032 has changed nick to elliott.
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03:14:26 <ion> 68060 > 55032
03:15:39 <ion> λ> compare Guest55034 Guest55032
03:17:01 <Bike> how did that happen?
03:17:08 <pikhq_> let compare = flip compare
03:21:52 <ion> data Guest = Guest55034 | Guest55032 deriving (Eq, Ord)
03:23:00 <shachaf> data Comparing = Eq | Ord deriving (Eq, Ord)
03:23:45 <Bike> note to self do not ask questions
03:24:39 <oerjan> i'd be more impressed if he made it work in lambdabot
03:28:02 <shachaf> oerjan: You should set this channel -n
03:28:09 <shachaf> So elliott can spam it without joining.
03:29:18 <shachaf> oerjan: Also, you should kick me for spamming.
03:29:19 <zzo38> If there is Haskell library for defining moves of chess pieces, what should it be called?
03:30:30 <zzo38> I mean the module name, not the package name, though.
03:32:37 <oerjan> Control.Games.Board.Chess.Moves.Class
03:36:04 <Fiora> oh gosh I got quoted
03:36:21 <Bike> you've really hit the bigtime now.
03:36:23 <shachaf> @remember Fiora oh gosh I got quoted
03:36:36 <shachaf> No, lambdabot is for high-quality quotes.
03:36:38 <shachaf> @forget Fiora oh gosh I got quoted
03:36:51 <lambdabot> sorear says: [emacs haskell mode] not fucked up, just well documented
03:37:10 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
03:37:18 <elliott> so Fiora has gone through two phases of initiation
03:37:30 <elliott> excessive welcoming and being quoted
03:37:34 <Bike> is she going to have to write an eodermdrome interpreter too
03:37:38 <elliott> next up is the goat sacrifice
03:37:49 <oerjan> Bike: no, no one actually managed that yet
03:37:51 <elliott> Bike: yes but that usually comes later
03:37:51 <Bike> oh i'm so up for that
03:38:04 <Bike> oerjan: isn't that the joke
03:38:24 <oerjan> she has to spend a few weeks agonizing over how to do it before she fails, though
03:38:36 <Bike> i got bored/frustrated, turns out np-complete problems are annoying, especially when you look at graph rewriting and then look at thue and think "why"
03:38:51 <oerjan> elliott: he just chose a different failure mode, known as "losing the source"
03:39:06 <Fiora> what's an eodermdrome interpreter @_@
03:39:23 <Bike> Fiora: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome it's an esoteric language, or "esolang" for short
03:39:37 <oerjan> anyone whose eyes look like @ isn't sane enough to be told!
03:41:08 <Fiora> yes I know what an eslolang is
03:41:20 <Fiora> oh no. it's /that/ one
03:41:27 <Bike> the one i was failing at, yes
03:41:42 <shachaf> Fiora: "what is an eslolang"
03:41:53 <Bike> i did write a mascarphone interpreter when arc_koen was talking about it the other day, though. completely untested, as the gods demanded
03:42:16 <Fiora> sorry I'm like randomly being pulled away and things because I'm at my parents' house this weekend
03:42:27 <oerjan> does this mascarphone interpreter have good call rates?
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03:43:13 <Bike> what does that mean? if it's some subquestion of "is it efficient" the answer is still no
03:43:37 * oerjan notes strong winds above Bike's head
03:44:06 <Bike> i have congenital joke-blindness, you bigot!
03:44:49 <oerjan> oh. i'm afraid you'll probably not survive in this channel, then.
03:44:56 <Fiora> oh. subgraph isomorphism is the hard one
03:45:01 <Fiora> and graph isomorphism is the almost-hard one
03:45:18 <Bike> i actually got the subgraph isomorphism bit, but the replacement semantics are not what i assumed
03:47:00 <oerjan> there's the "some vertices need to have no extra edges" bit
03:47:47 <Bike> yeah, basically i didn't pay enough attention to the description and wrote it wrong, so, frustration when i found out
04:04:06 <shachaf> ion: So do you do the thing where you capitalize your sentences, but not the word "I"?
04:04:51 <olsner> if a sentence starts with I, do you capitalize the following word instead?
04:04:58 <shachaf> I was wondering whether you do that on purpose or what it is that you do.
04:05:14 <shachaf> olsner: I meant treating "I" as any other word, and capitalizing it like any other word.
04:05:19 <shachaf> Rather than giving it special treatment.
04:05:31 <ion> I’d like to learn the reasoning for the special treatment of “I”. You don’t capitalize “You”.
04:05:52 <Bike> probably something to do with the venerable medieval lack of punctuation or spaces
04:06:13 <shachaf> ion: So it is a thing you do on purpose?
04:06:32 <zzo38> Bike: Yes I am guessing something like that
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04:07:42 <ion> Well, i capitalize “I” in anything more formal, but i find the exception strange.
04:08:10 <shachaf> i ONCE CONSIDERED DOING IT THAT WAY
04:08:22 <n2liquid> I agree, but I just got over it
04:08:47 <n2liquid> There are enough oddities in my own language to be questioning english
04:08:53 <olsner> Write All Sentences in Some Kind of Title Case
04:09:08 <Gregor> I read an article that suggested that the only reason “I” is capitalized is because printers thought “i” looked ugly.
04:09:18 <pikhq_> Bah, we should just capitalize all Nouns, as is the historical Practice.
04:09:24 <shachaf> Nowadays printers have no free will.
04:09:32 <elliott> I have a 1-2 ms ping to the london freenode server from my server
04:09:44 <oerjan> shachaf: that's what they _want_ you to think
04:09:45 <Gregor> elliott: Not particularly wild?
04:09:53 <ion> The same guys who thought you should move a subset of punctuation following a right quotation mark inside the quotation? Screw those guys.
04:10:01 <pikhq_> Free Will is for Plebians, Peasants, and Fools. We educated Souls know that there is no such Thing as free Will.
04:10:10 <pikhq_> There is only the Dictates of Physics.
04:10:22 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net (83.170.94.214): icmp_req=1 ttl=56 time=1.06 ms
04:10:26 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net (83.170.94.214): icmp_req=3 ttl=56 time=1.16 ms
04:10:29 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net (83.170.94.214): icmp_req=4 ttl=56 time=1.15 ms
04:10:31 <shachaf> Gregor: I looked for a taquería and didn't find one.
04:10:32 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net (83.170.94.214): icmp_req=5 ttl=56 time=1.15 ms
04:10:34 <elliott> 64 bytes from sturgeon.freenode.net (83.170.94.214): icmp_req=6 ttl=56 time=1.13 ms
04:10:38 <elliott> don't tell me that's not wild
04:10:47 <Gregor> shachaf: Where the heck are you in SFO that you can't find a taqueria???
04:10:49 <ion> elliott: You seem to have some packet loss.
04:10:50 <pikhq_> elliott: ... How many lightmilliseconds are you from London?
04:10:59 <shachaf> Gregor: I didn't look very far, admittedly.
04:11:30 <pikhq_> Though "a while" is not a quantity of lightmilliseconds, vague or otherwise. ;)
04:11:53 <oerjan> `frink 1 while -> lightmillisecond
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04:12:01 <kmc> shachaf: are you in san francisco san francisco or are you in epa
04:12:04 <HackEgo> Syntax error: <String>, line 1, near column 2 \ 1 while -> lightmillisecond \ ^ \ 1 error(s) occurred during parsing.
04:12:09 <kmc> epa gangnam style
04:12:17 <shachaf> kmc: At the moment San Francisco San Francisco.
04:12:41 <shachaf> kmc: San Francisco is the best San Francisco, don't you think?
04:12:41 <kmc> where abouts
04:12:59 <elliott> pikhq_: anyway you should help me get ipv6 working
04:13:00 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_(disambiguation)
04:13:03 <elliott> i can connect to freenode via ipv6
04:13:04 <elliott> i can connect to freenode via ssl
04:13:06 <elliott> but not both at the same time
04:14:21 <shachaf> Gregor: Are you doing a PhD thing in San Francisco?
04:14:39 <Gregor> shachaf: I'm doing an internship thing in San Francisco.
04:15:30 <pikhq_> Is it true that a soulectomy is a job requirement?
04:15:48 <kmc> most of my coworkers used to work at oracle :(
04:15:54 <kmc> they must be zombies now
04:16:22 <shachaf> kmc: Are they using Python?
04:16:26 <shachaf> That's a sure sign of being a zombie.
04:16:31 <kmc> i don't understand
04:16:46 <shachaf> Do you have lots of coworkers now?
04:17:11 <kmc> of whom five used to work at oracle
04:17:18 <kmc> shachaf: i suppose
04:17:21 <olsner> six down from however many it was before the zombies started munching brains
04:17:33 <kmc> there are four founders; i am employee #1 and employee #2 started two days after me
04:18:28 <kmc> that's right
04:21:25 <shachaf> kmc: My sister wants to move to Cambridge.
04:21:30 <shachaf> Unfortunately it's the wrong one.
04:21:59 <shachaf> How do I persuade her that Mid-Cambridge, MA is the best city?
04:25:41 <kmc> it's not the best city
04:25:44 <kmc> but pretty good
04:26:07 <kmc> why is your sister moving to the other cambridge?
04:26:21 <shachaf> I think she wants to go to university there.
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05:00:18 <zzo38> Once I read something by someone who capitalized every word
05:00:52 <monqy> the !!!batch specification? I guess that's not every word
05:01:12 <zzo38> No, I mean many sentences.
05:01:35 <zzo38> Not only that but the lines were also numbered even though the line numbers are not related to text items.
05:04:54 <shachaf> monqy: have you learned lenses yet
05:05:02 <shachaf> monqy: there's a new thing on the block to learn
05:05:16 <zzo38> What do co-lenses do?
05:05:26 <shachaf> zzo38: The dual of what lenses do.
05:07:18 <zzo38> It still doesn't help. Can you be more specific what its type and so on is? Does it make a category like lenses do?
05:08:58 <shachaf> Lenses aren't really a category, are they?
05:09:11 <shachaf> Lens s t a b = (s -> a, (s,b) -> t)
05:09:39 <shachaf> Colens s t a b = (b -> t, s -> Either t a)
05:11:49 <zzo38> If you have the one with only two parameters instead of four, then there is the lens category (including the Category instance).
05:12:25 <monqy> shachaf: where is colens
05:12:45 <shachaf> It's called Projection in lens.
05:14:48 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: leaving).
05:14:56 <shachaf> @tell elliott You know what you should do?
05:19:59 -!- elliott has joined.
05:20:19 <elliott> Well, I have SSL + IPv6 working.
05:20:20 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
05:20:32 <elliott> But it's broken SSL certificate verification. :(
05:20:53 <elliott> Seems to be a result of this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/irssi/+bug/573256
05:21:05 <shachaf> elliott: If you wrote a lazy syntax highlighter for Haskell.
05:21:12 <elliott> I think I could work around it just by adding all the freenode servers I want to connect to to the irssi network rather than the round-robin?
05:21:51 <elliott> you sent me a lambdabot message
05:21:56 <shachaf> 21:21 <shachaf> elliott: If you wrote a lazy syntax highlighter for Haskell.
05:22:09 <shachaf> Hmm, I might've changed my tense-thing in the middle there.
05:22:48 <shachaf> elliott: but http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/144biy/pretty_output_in_ghci_howto_in_comments/ :'(
05:23:58 <Sgeo> Edit 2: You will need to either :seti -XNoMonomorphismRestriction or give myPrint an explicit type annotation. I happened to have the former already.
05:24:17 <Sgeo> Shouldn't rewriting myPrint to not be pointfree work?
05:24:21 <shachaf> Sgeo: I don't care about that.
05:24:27 <shachaf> elliott: Someone bountied my stackoverflow answer!
05:24:52 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe they bountied one of the other answers.
05:25:26 <Sgeo> Or actually, nothing's wrong with a type annotation, right?
05:25:29 <elliott> the points come automatically
05:25:50 <shachaf> But the asker person didn't pick best answer!
05:26:05 <elliott> then it's assigned automatically
05:26:22 <elliott> shachaf: you should upvote http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9050725/call-cc-implementation/9050907#9050907 so my top-voted answer isn't to the question "How do you identify monadic design patterns?"
05:26:54 <shachaf> Hmm, you could get people to downvote that one instead.
05:26:57 <elliott> hmm i don't even like how the latter answer words it at the start
05:27:02 <elliott> shachaf: yeah but then i would lose internet points
05:27:34 <shachaf> elliott: but how did you get a billion internet points without every getting more than 50 votes on an answer
05:28:23 <elliott> writing one great answer that immediately gets a huge number of votes doesn't even help that much anyway due to the 200 rep cap
05:29:05 <elliott> fizzie: are you there i need help with this certificate thing!!
05:29:33 <elliott> feel free to peruse the long and tedious history of posts at http://meta.stackoverflow.com/ if you want an answer
05:40:16 <elliott> ion: are you the ion in http://bash.org/?152037 by the way
05:40:57 <pikhq_> Nicknames should be unique!
05:46:29 <Sgeo> I should go read the Facebook TOS
05:48:55 <Sgeo> "For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP License). "
05:49:05 <Sgeo> Why do they need a transferable and sub-licensable license?
05:50:09 <Bike> so that they can grant reproduction rights to advertisers and other licensees and stuff
05:51:09 <Sgeo> Honestly, I understand the rest of it, from a technical perspective
05:51:26 <Sgeo> Just in terms of showing photos to peoples friends when their privacy settings are set such, for example
05:51:57 <Sgeo> "You will not post unauthorized commercial communications (such as spam) on Facebook."
05:52:08 <Bike> the main thing to get about facebook is you're the product, not the customer. the customers are ad companies and zynga and companies like that. the TOS is oriented to help the cusotmers.
05:52:36 <Sgeo> How does one get authorization? Many companies have Facebook pages, which I can only assume are used for commercial communications
05:53:28 <Sgeo> "You will not use Facebook to do anything unlawful, misleading, malicious, or discriminatory.
05:53:36 <Sgeo> Uh. I'm not allowed to lie on Facebook?
05:54:15 <Bike> TOSs aren't exactly meant to be followed to the letter, it's just for legal cases and shit
05:54:33 <pikhq_> Sgeo: Yup. So, if you're gay you better be out.
05:55:26 <Bike> I wonder if "don't mislead" would cover being gay and not telling anyone. Since you're only "misleading" them in that they assume you're straight because that's the cultural norm.
05:55:49 <pikhq_> Curses be unto heteronormativity.
05:56:13 * Bike makes traditional hand gesture of agreement
05:57:05 <Sgeo> What about April Fools jokes?
05:57:13 <Sgeo> Such as "just got arrested for drunk driving"
05:57:14 <pikhq_> Not actually misleading.
05:58:00 <Sgeo> Had an April Fools Day where I was just posting statuses saying how I was going to a party, got drunk, had unprotected sex with some girl, and got arrested for drunk driving.
05:58:04 <Sgeo> I don't think anyone believed it
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05:59:20 <Sgeo> "You will not transfer your account (including any Page or application you administer) to anyone without first getting our written permission.
05:59:40 <Sgeo> That... seems annoying for companies. Unless the company is considered the administer the page, and not individual employees?
06:01:01 <Sgeo> "You will not tag users or send email invitations to non-users without their consent. Facebook offers social reporting tools to enable users to provide feedback about tagging.
06:01:58 <Sgeo> ...how does that even work? The tagging mechanisms don't require consent, do they? And sending email invitations to non-users... um, it's an invitation, how do you get consent to send an invitation?
06:02:06 <Sgeo> Although I think that that section is geared more towards developers
06:03:29 <Sgeo> In a section for developers: "You will not directly or indirectly transfer any data you receive from us to (or use such data in connection with) any ad network, ad exchange, data broker, or other advertising related toolset, even if a user consents to that transfer or use."
06:03:50 <Sgeo> That's pretty blatant in terms of what Bike was saying before
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06:04:25 <Sgeo> hi elliott. helliott.
06:12:10 <Sgeo> CALIFORNIA CIVIL CODE 1542 is useless, isn't it?
06:13:54 <elliott> i hear monqy knows about california
06:14:33 <Sgeo> From what the Facebook TOS quoted, it's a thing about releases (of liability I guess) not applying in all circumstances. So, all an organization needs to do to get a fully general release is say that the other party waives it
06:14:56 <elliott> are you still talking about facebook's terms of service jesus
06:15:43 <Sgeo> I stopped. And didn't say everything I wanted to say, after you joined, because I figured that that's why you left
06:16:02 <elliott> if #esoteric said only things i wanted it would be a very different place
06:23:01 <n2liquid_> ... I see this channel is full of respectful people, eh
06:26:21 <shachaf> kmc: I missed the train south and now the next one won't be for another ~1.5 hours.
06:28:05 <elliott> n2liquid_: we must be in different #esoterics
06:28:23 <Bike> my esoteric is better than your esoteric.
06:29:46 <n2liquid_> Well, I've only been here for this night, but it does seem peaceful
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06:48:28 <elliott> @tell fizzie does the client certificate thing work as good as sasl now that you're using it? with the cloak-guaranteed-to-take-effect-before-joining-channels stuff
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09:22:33 <fizzie> @tell elliott I haven't actually tried reconnecting after setting it up. It worked for the first time, I think, but then again I still had the server pass thing set up, and that works too most of the time.
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12:24:56 <Sgeo> "In fact, the odds of dying from a scorpion sting are one in 300 million. To put this in perspective: Your odds of dying by simply falling over in the shower are one in 65,000. In other words, if you find a scorpion in your shower tomorrow morning, the shower stall itself may still be the greater danger.
12:24:56 <Sgeo> Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19171_5-things-that-arent-nearly-as-dangerous-as-hollywood-thinks.html#ixzz2Dtf6HJYx"
12:25:05 <Sgeo> ...screw you thingy
12:25:23 <Sgeo> Am I allowed to facepalm at the misunderstanding of probability, or should I just accept it as a joke
12:26:00 <Phantom_Hoover> is that 1 in 300 million the population-wide probability of dying from a scorpion sting
12:26:24 <Sgeo> It links to http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Death/Death-Rates/Odds/The-odds-a-person-will-die-from-being-stung-by-a-scorpion-in-a-year-are-1-in-299-400-000-US-2006
12:28:21 <Sgeo> It could still be true, I guess, but there's not enough information.
14:21:55 <FreeFull> Sgeo: The reason why the odds of dying from a scorpion sting are so low is that scorpions don't live in most places that people do
14:22:14 <FreeFull> If there is actually a scorpion there, your odds definitely go up
14:29:32 <Phantom_Hoover> your ability to state what everyone else had already implicitly figured out is truly a boon to the channel
14:31:33 <FreeFull> Well I am Captain Obvious, if that's not obvious
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16:42:03 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> please stop being captain obvious then <-- who should be captain obvious then?
16:42:45 <fizzie> But then the discussion can go astray.
16:42:46 <lambdabot> fizzie: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:43:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I always thought of Captain Obvious like a superhero, like Captain America or whatever
16:43:13 <Vorpal> now I'm curious as to what was originally intended in that phrase
16:44:05 <fizzie> "By your inanities combined, I am Captain Obvious!"
16:45:12 <Vorpal> then we obviously need a Captain Obvious
16:45:21 <kmc> fuck captain planet
16:45:34 <elliott> fizzie: imo you should do some testing & also help me out w/ my new ssl problem
16:45:34 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:45:39 <lambdabot> fizzie said 7h 23m 7s ago: I haven't actually tried reconnecting after setting it up. It worked for the first time, I think, but then again I still had the server pass thing set up, and that works
16:45:54 <kmc> his agenda of taking pollution "down to zero" puts one in mind of the fanatical de-industrialization agenda of the khmer rouge
16:46:39 <elliott> #esoteric, number one channel for sociopolitical analysis of captain planet
16:46:56 <kmc> shachaf: did you make it to a train
16:46:58 <Phantom_Hoover> captain planet throws gi in a labour camp because she looks too intellectual
16:47:06 <kmc> or did you just have to run along the tracks at high speed yelling "CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUCKER"
16:48:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heh what?
16:48:44 <Phantom_Hoover> i have never seen captain planet or indeed heard of it beyond 80s pop culture references
16:49:15 <fizzie> I have watched it, it was broadcast in Finland.
16:49:28 <kmc> in college we had a house office named "captain planet"
16:49:39 <kmc> they were charged with taking care of all the living things in the house
16:49:41 <kmc> primarily the hot tub
16:50:07 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It was also made in 1990-1996, so it's curious it appears in 80s pop culture.
16:50:28 <kmc> it's a complex ecosystem
16:50:46 <kmc> haven't seen
16:51:39 <fizzie> Helsinki University has a greenhouse warmed by computer exhaust heat on top of the Exactum building.
16:51:59 <kmc> fizzie: nice
16:52:02 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmmfmYID1Yw -- you can see it there.
16:52:26 <fizzie> Or you can see the rack, but the vaguely transparent plastic thing behind it is a greenhouse.
16:53:20 <fizzie> (I saw the link somewhere a while ago.)
16:54:04 <kmc> heh he has a shirt with the pac man kill screen
16:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, the it crowd is good with having actual nerdy references in the background
16:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> there are some eff posters around the place too, and a picture of bob dobbs
16:57:22 <kmc> 'This show's like "The Big Bang Theory" except it doesn't suck a Big Franch Dick.'
16:57:27 <kmc> well put, random youtube idiot
16:58:06 <kmc> (franch, as everyone knows, is a condiment composed of a mixture of french and ranch dressing)
16:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> even assuming that's a baffling typo for french, since when were french dicks known for their size?
16:58:51 <kmc> well if they were, the adjective wouldn't be necessary
16:59:04 <kmc> insert coq joke here
16:59:51 <kmc> 'Twenty years ago, I wrote a comedy in which a scientist accidentally kills God and feels really terrible about it. Meanwhile, his former lab assistant goes on to fame and fortune by inventing something called "Franch" -- a salad dressing that's half-French, half-ranch.'
17:00:14 <Vorpal> <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmmfmYID1Yw -- you can see it there. <--- lol what?
17:00:18 <Vorpal> servers out in the open?
17:00:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not out in the open.
17:00:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a transparent plastic in front of the rack.
17:00:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: But yes, it's a "Experimental Free Air Cooling setup".
17:01:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, looks like he is removing snow directly from the servers but oh well
17:02:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are they talking about btw?
17:02:31 <fizzie> There's a translation in the comments, though it's a bit off.
17:02:35 <Vorpal> "Person 1: this is a really stupid idea" "Person 2: No no, it will just work"
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17:03:19 <fizzie> It's something like "Here is Mikko doing server administration." "Works well!" "And that's how we do a little clean<cuts off>"
17:03:39 <kmc> reminds me of http://www.afrotechmods.com/
17:04:17 <kmc> in particular http://www.afrotechmods.com/papercooling.htm
17:04:35 <fizzie> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6F8oAMFyZtk/T2iGlBvcFaI/AAAAAAAACVs/GJwiMc8Oo94/s1152/IMG_20120320_145825.jpg shows the other side of the rack.
17:04:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, it might become too cold for the servers as well hm
17:05:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: The blog mentions they haven't had any problems at -30 degrees Celsius or so.
17:05:23 <elliott> <META NAME="GENERATOR" CONTENT="Mozilla/3.04Gold (WinNT; I) [Netscape]">
17:05:26 <elliott> this page is as old as kmc
17:06:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: Most of their computer centers are more traditional, I think this is more of a hobby experiment.
17:06:39 <kmc> http://afrotechmods.com/stupid/memory/memory.htm
17:08:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (i forget, is that one of the things everyone's seen but some twat always posts it)
17:09:29 <olsner> why doesn't the heat of the servers melt the snow and create horrible water problems?
17:10:36 <fizzie> olsner: That's exactly what one of the comments asked, I think.
17:10:49 <fizzie> I don't have any sort of answer.
17:11:10 <fizzie> Except that water flows down, I suppose you can sort of guide it elsewhere.
17:11:31 <olsner> I suppose it could be cold enough that nothing in the server is above freezing
17:11:36 <fizzie> The linked blog has a lot of content about the design of the box around it.
17:12:19 <fizzie> The snow is going to melt before summer, anyway, so I'm sure they've considered water.
17:12:30 <fizzie> Also, it sometimes rains.
17:19:22 <kmc> what if a moose tries to eat the servers
17:20:07 <arcatan> the servers are on the roof of the university building, so no mooses there (hopefully)
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19:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> have you by any chance done that thing you've claimed you'll do for like a week
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19:14:47 <ion> elliott: I’m not.
19:15:02 <ion> elliott: It’s a fake ion.
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19:17:45 <elliott> ion: did you see that fancy new edwardk exported unsafeCoerce
19:18:50 <ion> I saw the paste, didn’t look at “vacuous” yet.
19:19:05 <elliott> ion: the implementation is vacuous = unsafeCoerce
19:19:16 <elliott> because if you have a legit functor f, you can implement f Void -> f a that way
19:19:30 <elliott> unfortunately, people can lie!
19:19:41 <elliott> so (Functor f) => f Void -> f a actually means forall f. f Void -> f a
19:19:48 <elliott> which means Iso Void Void -> Iso Void a
19:19:55 <elliott> which means (a -> Void, Void -> a)
19:20:04 <elliott> er, with a forall on each, of course
19:20:07 <elliott> which means compose them and you get a -> b
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19:36:16 <zzo38> You could write it with empty case blocks if it were allowed, such as (fmap $ \x -> case x of {})
19:37:03 <zzo38> But you could use undefined instead.
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20:13:04 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
20:13:13 <elliott> oerjan: I found an exported unsafeCoerce bug in an edwardk package!
20:13:37 <fizzie> !help im trapped in a #esoteric factory
20:13:38 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for im_trapped_in_a__esoteric_factory!
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20:13:43 <elliott> oerjan: You know the void package?
20:13:55 <elliott> And its unsafeCoerce trick for implementing vacuous :: (Functor f) => f Void -> f a?
20:14:04 <elliott> Because that works for all functors.
20:14:07 <elliott> WELL, http://hpaste.org/78675
20:14:10 <kmc> elliott: pfft found that bug like a year ago
20:14:16 <kmc> srsly though good work
20:14:30 <oerjan> !malbolge ('&%:9]!~}|z2Vxwv-,POqponl$Hjig%eB@@>}=<M:9wv6WsU2T|nm-,jcL(I&%$#"`CB]V?Tx<uVtT`Rpo3NlF.Jh++FdbCBA@?]!~|4XzyTT43Qsqq(Lnmkj"Fhg${z@>
20:14:43 <elliott> it is funny because this is the second time one of edwardk's "safe" unsafeCoerces has turned out to result in an external unsafeCoerce
20:15:00 <elliott> admittedly the first one was only in the git version of lens and never released
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20:15:07 <kmc> http://hpaste.org/52660
20:15:27 <kmc> different bug i guess
20:15:38 * oerjan is testing the Malbolge hello world to see what it actually prints, because of a strange edit war on wikipedia.
20:16:31 <fizzie> oerjan: But wouldn't that be ORIGINAL RESEARCH?
20:16:35 <elliott> kmc: did you tell edwardk :P
20:18:31 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
20:18:39 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
20:18:49 <EgoBot> invalid character in source file
20:18:50 <shachaf> kmc: YOur bug is the same one, I think, or pretty close.
20:18:52 <fizzie> oerjan: You must write a published book about Malbolge Hello Worlds, and then wait until someone else writes a book that refers to your book, and then you can rely on that.
20:19:00 <kmc> elliott: i did
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20:19:31 <oerjan> elliott: ok so it's an unsafeCoerce that is only safe if the Functor instance actually satisfies the laws, presumably?
20:19:33 <elliott> he said he'd fix it when i showed him this one!
20:19:47 <elliott> oerjan: any data type that is an actual functor will admit that unsafeCoerce implementation, I think
20:19:48 <FreeFull> Or is asm some other esoteric language
20:19:55 <elliott> or at least, I can't think of a counterexample
20:20:00 <elliott> maybe there is one with fancy GADT type family stuff
20:20:16 <fizzie> FreeFull: There's "asm" in both the esoteric and other lists.
20:20:58 <FreeFull> !c int main() { printf("%d\n", 1); return 0;}
20:21:01 <elliott> for some reason I thought of this unsafeCoerce bug while trying to get to sleep
20:21:08 <elliott> after not having looked at or used the void package in ages
20:21:46 <FreeFull> !c int main() { int arr[1]; int i; for(i=0;;i++) { arr[i] = i; } return 0; }
20:21:48 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 17341 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:22:01 <fizzie> FreeFull: The !asm runs /interps/gcccomp/gcccomp assembler which will try to gcc yourcode.s.
20:22:15 <fizzie> FreeFull: So you need to write it in x86-64 AT&T assenbler.
20:22:35 <fizzie> That's not what it looks like.
20:22:43 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 17509 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:22:57 <fizzie> mov 1, %eax would be intel mov eax, [1].
20:23:04 <FreeFull> Ah, without $ it's a memory address
20:23:12 <fizzie> There's also .globl main; main: pushq %rbp; movq %rsp, %rbp; prependend automatically, and movl $0, %eax; leave; ret; suffixed.
20:24:09 <nooodl__> can !asm do anything reasonably nifty
20:24:18 <elliott> fizzie: wanna hear a joke?
20:24:37 <fizzie> !asm .extern puts; .data; hello: .asciz "hello there"; .text; mov $hello, %rdi; call puts
20:27:02 <oerjan> FreeFull: btw the error you got on the Malbolge is because every position in the program allows a varying set of 8 bytes, namely the ones which decrypt to actual commands at that spot.
20:27:18 <oerjan> and no other byte is allowed at that spot
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20:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> why would i look at the topic, it's not like it ever contains any useful information
20:40:45 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> your ability to state what everyone else had already implicitly figured out is truly a boon to the channel <-- hey don't be too hard on him, i was tempted myself. even while logreading.
20:41:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: Babies are usually not eaten owing to their repugnant looks, as well as their viscosity and unpleasant habits. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:41:54 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:42:02 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
20:42:24 -!- elliott has set topic: .
20:42:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H.
20:43:00 * oerjan wonders if that actually breaks any clients
20:43:24 <atriq> My client doesn't support topics shorter than 28 characters
20:43:44 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that might explain it.
20:43:54 -!- elliott has set topic: caret h.
20:43:59 -!- nooodl__ has set topic.
20:44:00 -!- oerjan has set topic.
20:44:10 -!- atriq has set topic: carrot ache.
20:44:17 <elliott> oerjan: how do you insert the actual Ctrl+H with irssi
20:44:35 <elliott> oerjan: doesn't work for me :(
20:44:37 -!- nooodl__ has set topic: /topic: the new way to chat.
20:45:12 -!- atriq has set topic: /topic: the new way to chat | How arre you? | *-r.
20:45:14 <oerjan> hm i may have set a binding myself
20:45:15 <nooodl__> on x-chat ctrl+shift+u-8 works but that's probably not the case in irssi
20:46:06 <oerjan> elliott: ^ the above binding is what i have, and allows me to do that with any control char
20:46:45 <elliott> FreeFull: that's not what i want to do
20:46:53 <oerjan> i probably set it to resemble vim in that respect
20:48:40 <elliott> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forget,_when_up_to_one%27s_neck_in_alligators,_that_the_mission_is_to_drain_the_swamp
20:49:37 <Bike> is that an actual term anyone has ever used
20:50:04 <elliott> Bike: let's not forget, when up to one's neck in alligators, that the mission is to drain the swamp. it doesn't matter whether anyone has *used* the term.
20:50:37 <oerjan> elliott: i've also bound home to scroll_start and end to scroll_end
20:50:46 <atriq> Why is a lot of things making me feel guilty
20:51:04 <atriq> It's not as if those nuns didn't deserve to be guillotined...
20:52:23 <nooodl__> elliott: thanks for that idiom
20:52:25 <oerjan> because i kept wanting to do that, while they by default just duplicated ^A and ^E. iirc.
20:52:32 <elliott> nooodl__: please dont use that idiom
20:55:00 <fizzie> oerjan: They are beginning_of_line and end_of_line by default, yes.
20:55:26 <elliott> does ecape_char even have a default binding
20:55:41 <fizzie> It does not. At least it wasn't bound to anything for me.
20:55:49 <fizzie> Now it is bound to ^V IT'S SPREADING
20:56:50 <elliott> maybe i can bind something to type "/win " for me
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21:15:29 <FreeFull> oerjan: But how am I meant to get to the start or end of what I typed then
21:16:43 <oerjan> FreeFull: ^A and ^E, i said
21:17:25 <oerjan> in my initial setup, those had the same bindings as home and end. so i changed one pair to something else useful.
21:18:11 <elliott> 21:16:34 -!- TuxBlackEdo [~TuxBlackE@unaffiliated/tuxblackedo] has joined ##crypto
21:18:14 <elliott> 21:17:16 <TuxBlackEdo> hey i just met you, and this is crazy, but here is a cyphertext, crack it for me maybe?
21:18:20 <elliott> regretting joining this channel so i could let lambdabot in it
21:18:49 <oerjan> elliott: well if you can now find a one-line lambdabot command to crack it, all will be well.
21:19:46 <FreeFull> oerjan: I have ^A as my tmux key
21:19:58 <FreeFull> I have that make a literal <CTCP>
21:20:53 <oerjan> FreeFull: fine, we can assume there's a reason irssi allows personal settings.
21:21:25 <FreeFull> Because otherwise nobody would use it?
21:21:49 <zzo38> This IRC client makes CTRL+A send a literal CTRL+A for such purpose; to send other controls literal requires CTRL+P at first.
21:26:27 <fizzie> I keep using ^A and ^E for start_of_line/end_of_line even though it's under screen; I just ^Aa all the time. It's very stupid.
21:26:37 <elliott> have you considered changing your screen key
21:27:03 <fizzie> I think that would just make me type a lot of ^As everywhere.
21:27:04 <FreeFull> ^A is the most convienient for me
21:27:37 <FreeFull> The default key for tmux is ^B or some shizz
21:28:31 <fizzie> It's not as if I could think and operate a computer at the same time, so I have to keep doing the stupid thing.
21:29:52 <elliott> fizzie: Is there a way to do a "/window list" that lists in the current buffer?
21:30:18 * oerjan suddenly imagines an intelligent race that cannot think and act at the same time, but must do all actions according to (short) preplanned algorithms
21:30:30 <fizzie> elliott: You can not have a status window at all, I think that would do it.
21:30:43 <hagb4rd> fizzie: you could try to pawlow self-conditioning
21:30:46 <elliott> fizzie: that is not terribly satisfying
21:31:01 <elliott> fizzie: i would be ok with a way to write a key combo that switches to the status window and does /window list and then types "/window " for me i guess
21:31:02 <hagb4rd> fizzie: everytime you use type ^A bite yourself
21:31:06 <elliott> so i could do like ^W <number><enter>
21:31:52 <shachaf> elliott: What about Alt number?
21:32:00 <oerjan> and once an algorithm has started, it cannot be halted, except according to its own rules, and no thinking can happen simultaneously.
21:32:29 <elliott> shachaf: that doesn't show me a list. this is for when i forget which number is which
21:32:39 <fizzie> elliott: You can probably do that switch-to-status thing.
21:32:51 <shachaf> elliott: Just type the name in?
21:33:15 <oerjan> and the algorithms are too short to simulate any significant intelligence.
21:33:22 <elliott> "/win goto the-full-name" is a bit long.
21:33:28 <elliott> I would accept "/w substring"
21:34:25 <oerjan> hm it occurs to me that such an intelligence species would get around this by cooperation.
21:34:47 <FreeFull> I should bind scroll_start and scroll_end to something
21:35:14 <fizzie> elliott: "/bind X multi change_window 1;command window list;insert_text /win " (with the trailing space) where X is your key, I think.
21:35:16 <atriq> elliott, are you getting addicted to lens?
21:35:17 <kmc> switch (core.opcode_index+Fetchb()) {
21:35:18 <kmc> #include "core_normal/prefix_none.h"
21:35:18 <kmc> #include "core_normal/prefix_0f.h"
21:35:18 <kmc> #include "core_normal/prefix_66.h"
21:35:36 <hagb4rd> intelligence seems not be the best method for multitasking
21:35:39 <elliott> atriq: more like addicted to HAPPINESS
21:35:54 <elliott> fizzie: Okay, let's try this. (Is ^W bound to anything by default?)
21:36:05 <fizzie> elliott: It's bound to the usual delete-word thing.
21:36:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what are lenses and can they be given a succinct, incomprehensible definition in terms of category theory
21:37:39 <atriq> There to Functors as something else is to Applicatives
21:38:26 * oerjan vaguely recalls something about that
21:38:31 <atriq> No, something more category theoryish
21:39:21 <zzo38> A lens is not a functor, although there is functor from category of isomorphisms of (->) to Lens, I think.
21:39:22 <oerjan> i thought lens had a spot where you put in either Functor or Applicative and the former gave you an ordinary lens
21:39:27 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, basically, they use functors to generalize functions and setters to the SAME THING
21:40:05 <zzo38> But perhaps they could be made on other categories too, I don't know
21:40:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: store comonad coalgebra or something
21:41:05 <elliott> ah: "Lenses are the coalgebras for the costate comonad"
21:41:41 * oerjan might perhaps look at lens properly some day.
21:41:56 <oerjan> although maybe not until after upgrading the platform.
21:42:08 <FreeFull> fizzie: I just made lots of alt+shift and then ^Z bindings
21:42:14 <oerjan> i think i'm at least two versions behind.
21:42:22 <FreeFull> I'll do ^Z-shift or ^Z-alt when I'll need it
21:42:23 <atriq> What would an algebra in the state monad even look like
21:42:24 <fizzie> Conans are to good cooperation what nans are to good operation.
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21:42:54 <oerjan> fizzie: i thought Conans were barbarians.
21:43:13 <atriq> oerjan, it's cool, nans are grandmothers
21:43:15 <zzo38> I guess algebra of state monad would be like ((s -> (a, s)) -> a)
21:44:49 <FreeFull> A grandmother certainly isn't a number
21:44:54 <oerjan> except that Conan that is a comedian. i guess his nan is rather median, then.
21:45:02 <hagb4rd> and conan is an instance of barbarian
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21:54:52 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: do the elves walk around saying "siege heil"?
21:59:02 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Nan the Cobarbarian. <-- I read that as "Nam"
21:59:14 <Vorpal> and was wondering why you were joking about Indian food
22:03:43 <Vorpal> hm, is that how it is written in Swedish though? *checks*
22:03:45 <kmc> woah that's a palindrome
22:04:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah you are right
22:04:51 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sometimes also plain 'nan'; I refer to it as "not-a-number bread" personally.
22:05:02 <FreeFull> palindrome is disappointing because it's not autological
22:05:35 <FreeFull> fizzie: I haven't seen bread that was a number
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22:06:07 <fizzie> "Nam" is also a Finnish interjection much the same as the English "yum".
22:06:16 <fizzie> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nam#Interjection agrees.
22:06:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, i bet you're really popular with all the local takeaways
22:07:27 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I've ever had to mention it to one of those; the not-a-number designation has pretty much been confined to discussions at home about what to buy from the store.
22:08:21 <kmc> shachaf: do you know how hard it is to segfault DOSBox with bad guest code? if you answered "not at all hard" then you are correct
22:08:43 <kmc> printf '\x62\xe5' > foo.com && dosbox foo.com
22:09:00 <fizzie> Hey, Volapük also has the word "nam".
22:09:07 <FreeFull> kmc: Hell, I have it happen even with valid DOS programs
22:09:12 <fizzie> "Etymology: Reversal of “man”, from Latin manus (“hand”)."
22:09:26 <shachaf> kmc: That's not very hard.
22:10:28 <fizzie> DOSBox doesn't check segment limits either. :/
22:11:53 <FreeFull> Its OPL emulation seems better than worse though
22:12:21 <fizzie> You can poke the VGA memory with a xor ax, ax; mov ds, ax; mov eax, 0xa0000; mov byte [eax], 42 in it.
22:12:59 <FreeFull> What would happen on a 386 machine in 16 bit mode with that code?
22:14:47 <fizzie> I am not entirely sure, but I'd guess an exception in at least virtual-8086 mode; maybe not in real-address mode.
22:15:27 <fizzie> Perhaps in real-address mode too.
22:15:30 <kmc> sadly that segfault is only a call to a NULL function pointer
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22:16:55 <fizzie> "In the real-address mode, vector 13 is the segment overrun exception" just going by the name, that could happen.
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22:22:17 <nys> so i just got this idea
22:22:20 <nys> http://pastebin.com/UnfL0Z7T
22:22:30 <shachaf> kmc: Looks like segfaults aren't very hard to come by.
22:22:41 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe I was just wrong.
22:26:09 <kmc> what did you observe?
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22:28:08 <shachaf> Hm, printf '\x44\x51' > foo.com && dosbox foo.com
22:28:25 <shachaf> Unlike 62 e5, this isn't an invalid instruction.
22:28:58 <FreeFull> So overwrite whatever was on top of stack
22:29:20 <shachaf> I don't *think* that's supposed to segfault it...
22:29:24 <zzo38> But will the program terminate, or probably it will result something invalid and break it?
22:29:29 <kmc> segfaults my Debian DOSBox 0.74 but not the SVN trunk version
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22:30:32 <FreeFull> shachaf: I think the top of the stack would contain the return to dos
22:31:58 <shachaf> kmc: Anyway there are a bunch of other 2-byte .com files that will crash it.
22:32:09 <kmc> did you try them all?
22:32:33 <zzo38> To return to DOS using the stack I think you will need a RET instruction, though.
22:32:46 <shachaf> I generated them all but trying them is a hassle.
22:32:49 <FreeFull> Otherwise the CPU would just go past your program and then execute whatever
22:35:02 <kmc> seems the guest can install a callback for certain events (not the ISA-provided interrupt vector mechanism but some DOSBox thing) and the default callback is "jump to address 0 in the host"
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22:36:30 <zzo38> Is that implementing the "mount" command?
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22:44:31 <shachaf> kmc: How did you come across it?
22:46:06 -!- nys has joined.
22:47:39 <monqy> have you really not
22:47:42 <monqy> started the fortess yetr
22:47:48 <monqy> are you ever going to..........................
22:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> first, get df working (come on you must have done this)
22:48:59 <elliott> i have to come up with a way to make sure Phantom_Hoover won't cheat!!
22:49:06 <elliott> something about cats and explosoins
22:49:12 <shachaf> elliott: imo don't play df btw
22:49:26 <monqy> playing df means not fixing lens : )
22:49:55 <shachaf> monqy: What happened to your nose?
22:50:59 <monqy> alt. can't you see it????
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22:57:38 <oerjan> @tell ais523 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Carriage#Representation_erasure
23:21:34 <Arc_Koen> my god it's full of (5-legged) stars
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23:45:41 <oerjan> i think five-pointed is more common, although my maniackal laugh was not about that.
23:47:02 <hagb4rd> where do i know that from?
23:47:25 <oerjan> there's even a wp article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-pointed_star
23:50:33 <hagb4rd> though i find legs more accurate than points since it 10 of them
23:51:37 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um isn't the mutual recursion in ocaml solved the same way with types as with functions, by using "and"?
23:53:39 <Arc_Koen> and I had always thought "it's stupid that you can do mutual recursion for variables but not for types"
23:54:05 <Arc_Koen> that's kind of a problem I have, though
23:54:40 <Arc_Koen> for instance when playing a board game and my opponent does something unexpected I will usually think "uh, that's a weird move" rather than "ok, now, why did he do that?"
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23:56:10 <oerjan> obviously this is simpler in haskell >:)
23:56:11 <hagb4rd> on the other hand this would pretty much depend on the move
23:56:55 <hagb4rd> is there a native operator in haskell to get the cartesian product?
23:57:12 <Bike> how can it be simpler than "use and"
23:57:15 <oerjan> > liftM2 (,) "may" "be"
23:57:17 <lambdabot> [('m','b'),('m','e'),('a','b'),('a','e'),('y','b'),('y','e')]
23:58:51 <hagb4rd> couldn't it be more like may X be?
23:58:57 <oerjan> Bike: admittedly for values/functions you also need to use "rec", i think
23:59:33 <oerjan> hagb4rd: it's not _that_ often you need it i think...
00:00:03 <hagb4rd> not really no.. at least not for now
00:00:21 <oerjan> @hoogle f a -> f b -> f (a,b)
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence zip :: Seq a -> Seq b -> Seq (a, b)
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:00:22 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:00:25 <elliott> you can just define an operator for it if you want
00:00:39 <elliott> with idiom brackets it'd be (| (a,b) |) :P
00:02:09 <oerjan> @hoogle Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f (a,b)
00:02:09 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence zip :: Seq a -> Seq b -> Seq (a, b)
00:02:10 <lambdabot> Prelude zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:02:10 <lambdabot> Data.List zip :: [a] -> [b] -> [(a, b)]
00:02:53 <oerjan> zzo38 has been suggesting this function, i think :)
00:03:07 <oerjan> it's an alternative base function for applicatives
00:03:39 <zzo38> If you are doing applicative (not zip) then for f a -> f b -> f (a,b) you will have uncurry liftPair or liftA2 (,)
00:04:00 <oerjan> and more connected to the category theory way of looking at it.
00:04:02 <zzo38> I called it the liftPair which I think should be one of the class methods for Applicative
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Arbitrary (><) :: (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck (><) :: (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a) -> (Gen a -> Gen a)
00:04:59 <lambdabot> Data.Graph.Inductive.Query.Monad (><) :: (a -> b) -> (c -> d) -> (a, c) -> (b, d)
00:05:41 <oerjan> >< is used, but not in a very basic library, i think
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01:23:56 <Arc_Koen> I just begin to watch the next stargate episode
01:24:07 <Arc_Koen> and it started by a "previously in stargate sg-1..."
01:24:18 <Arc_Koen> WHAT THE HECK OF A SPOILER IS THAT THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT PREVIOUS
01:24:36 <Arc_Koen> cute ewoks coming out of everywhere
01:24:43 <Arc_Koen> weeee arrrre the fuuurrrrrlings
01:24:52 <Arc_Koen> daniel jackson: we finally get to meet you!
01:24:54 <oerjan> doing that for a time travel episode would be a mindscrew
01:25:41 <Arc_Koen> I think there was a series called "stargate gravity" that was canceled very early because it was too much of a mindscrew
01:25:57 <Arc_Koen> anyway, back to episode *hoping it's a joke*
01:33:57 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: regarding your last edit, if it's like haskell -rectypes is only needed when there is no named constructor between a type and its recursed appearance.
01:34:21 <oerjan> (well haskell doesn't have -rectypes, but that's when you get an error.)
01:34:36 <Bike> Arc_Koen: that episode was awesome.
01:35:46 <oerjan> value constructor, that is.
01:36:41 <oerjan> so if you removed _both_ "A of" and "B of", it would be needed, but having at least one of them is enough.
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01:46:57 <kmc> wine doesn't provide any isolation against malicious windows programs right
01:47:03 <kmc> like they can still execute native linux syscalls i think
01:48:10 <Bike> are you asking because your system has been compromised by a Fallout crack
01:49:04 <kmc> it hasn't been compromised yet ;)
01:50:06 <shachaf> kmc: What's with the dosbox and WINE thing?
01:52:07 <kmc> well you see
01:52:12 <kmc> i am excited about grand theft auto v
01:52:18 <kmc> coming out next year
01:52:26 <kmc> so i decided to play grand theft auto i in dosbox
01:52:31 <kmc> but i realized it sucks
01:52:43 <kmc> so now i am trying to play san andreas in wine
01:54:50 <kmc> great i'm supposed to get wine from multiarch now
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01:55:02 <shachaf> How do you get WINE in Debian anyway?
01:55:04 <kmc> i'm sure this will not in any way ruin my entire system and cause apt to segfault randomly like last time
01:55:10 <kmc> shachaf: the usual way?
01:56:09 <shachaf> At one point the package wasn't available in testing.
01:56:16 <shachaf> Even though it was in stable and unstable.
01:56:28 <shachaf> I still get that issue occasionally with other packages.
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02:06:11 <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft
02:06:23 <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:06:51 <shachaf> Hmm, WINE ran Red Alert 3 better than Windows for me at one point.
02:07:09 <kmc> i guess i did run about half of deus ex too
02:07:12 <kmc> didn't totally work
02:07:28 <shachaf> It also ran a bunch of other things.
02:08:12 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:08:24 <HackEgo> 860) <kmc> i love how allegedly wine can run all of these different programs but the only one i can actually run is starcraft <kmc> i think wine may secretly be a cleanroom reimplementation of starcraft
02:09:10 <Sgeo> Shattered Galaxy worked in WINE for me some years ago
02:09:21 <Sgeo> ...the UI looks like Starcraft, I think
02:09:59 <kmc> are you sure you weren't actually playing starcraft
02:10:43 <Sgeo> wtf I tried going to wine.appdb.com derp
02:11:05 <Arc_Koen> that seems like a very primitive way to recognize troublesome recursive types
02:11:18 <Sgeo> http://appdb.winehq.org/appimage.php?iId=12758
02:11:30 <Arc_Koen> especially for a language like Ocaml which is supposed to be good at that kind of stuff
02:12:03 <Arc_Koen> it didn't really have an ending though
02:12:11 <Arc_Koen> and it felt really really short
02:12:23 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: well the thing i've heard is that if you don't have that rule, you very often get things that type well if you leave out arguments
02:13:20 <oerjan> missing or extra arguments to functions often end up not giving type errors if you allow recursive types.
02:13:29 <Sgeo> Wait, does Starcraft look like that image? I've never actually played
02:13:57 <Arc_Koen> yes for instance with "('a -> 'a) as 'a"
02:15:08 <Arc_Koen> so it's not about preventing nonsensical data structures?
02:15:26 <oerjan> for haskell, they have newtype which always compiles as no extra overhead, so it's not _necessary_ to use recursive types for anything.
02:16:01 <Arc_Koen> for instance if you define type 'a endless = 'a * 'a endless
02:16:51 <oerjan> i guess it prevents nonsensical data structures too, although in haskell data Stream a = Stream a (Stream a) is a perfectly useful type for always infinite lists
02:17:30 <oerjan> and more or less the same as what you wrote, underneath
02:17:37 <Arc_Koen> Error: The type abbreviation a is cyclic
02:17:56 <Arc_Koen> soooooooooo not so useful after all
02:19:47 <oerjan> yeah ocaml has special support for cyclic constants
02:21:01 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Mu'
02:21:24 <oerjan> > fix (Fix . Identity)
02:21:26 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Fix'
02:21:33 <shachaf> Are there any good RTSes? :-(
02:21:35 <oerjan> darn what was it called
02:22:24 <lambdabot> newtype Mu f = In { out :: f (Mu f) }
02:22:36 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
02:22:50 <lambdabot> In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (Just (In (J...
02:24:40 <oerjan> shachaf: not the same purpose
02:24:54 <shachaf> oerjan: "better" is a total ordering on all objects.
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02:25:34 <shachaf> For example, InR is better than In, and In is better than bell peppers
02:26:47 <oerjan> objects that think "better" is not a total ordering on all objects are better than objects that think "better" is a total ordering on all objects
02:27:18 <shachaf> Objects that don't think are better than both of those.
02:27:27 <zzo38> I think "better" is not even a partial ordering
02:27:38 <oerjan> also, i like bell peppers
02:27:51 <zzo38> I also think "better" is not always transitive.
02:28:04 <Sgeo> zzo38, is a computer that works not better than a broken computer?
02:28:13 <shachaf> Caltrain is not always transitive. :-(
02:28:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: depends. was it trying to kill you before it broke?
02:29:03 <zzo38> oerjan: Good point I suppose.
02:29:17 <zzo38> However, I meant is not *always* transitive; it is sometimes transitive.
02:31:25 <oerjan> if x <= y or y <= x always holds, then any three objects must have some transitivity among them.
02:32:46 <oerjan> (clarifying and then proving the above statement left as an exercise.)
02:34:33 <zzo38> Well, in a partial ordering and in a total ordering you would have if x<=y and y<=x and x=y. A partial ordering is the same as a thin category, isn't it?
02:35:08 <zzo38> (They may be different even though equal, I guess?)
02:35:18 <zzo38> Also, what is better than something else, also means, is better in what way?
02:37:40 <lambdabot> edwardk says: type level ieee floats are a crime against nature. i had to implement them in c++ for template meta programming once. never ever again
02:37:45 <shachaf> kmc: See what you're missing?
02:38:20 <shachaf> Actually I've been getting more annoy{ed,ing} lately where #haskell is concerned.
02:38:37 <shachaf> The other day shapr told me I was being too negative.
02:40:53 <oerjan> shapr hasn't broken long ago?
02:40:57 <ion> shachaf is becoming kmc?
02:41:51 <zzo38> Maybe there should be that a instance can be designated "evil" which indicates that it is not completely mathematically correct, and that derived instances from evil instances also are called evil; for example, instances such as (Num Float) and so on have this designation. In case of optimization of mathematical laws (if any), they can be omitted.
02:42:22 <zzo38> So due to this it would apply also to (Monoid (Sum Double)) and so on since rounding errors can cause the result to be wrong.
02:48:54 <zzo38> Do you know of chess variant involving Scrabble tiles as the pieces? (There is the number in the corner, which can be used to tell which direction it is facing, if you like.)
02:54:44 <Arc_Koen> "how is it that you are alive when everyone else on the planet was killed?" "I was protected by this" *points at her necklace* *camera zooms in to display necklace + cleavage* ... *camera stays on cleavage* ... *camera still on cleavage*
02:55:41 <zzo38> *camera won't move because now the camera men is killed too
02:56:39 <Arc_Koen> seriously the necklace thing is just there for fanservice
02:58:45 <Arc_Koen> you can't expect the lead female opposing character to die in the first scene just because of jewelry
03:02:18 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/97PdF.jpg
03:02:22 <Sgeo> (found on Reddit)
03:10:10 <lambdabot> Gettable f => (s -> a) -> (a -> f a) -> s -> f s
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03:17:07 <shachaf> foo :: (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]; foo f xs = over mapped f xs is even compiled into foo = map!
03:18:40 <shachaf> oerjan: I messed things up a little bit in the other channel.
03:18:46 <shachaf> 19:11 <shachaf> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo
03:18:47 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
03:19:16 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
03:19:29 <shachaf> oerjan: Isn't it great, though!
03:19:49 <shachaf> oerjan: There are a lot of unsafeCoerces in lens to make it happen.
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03:25:53 <shachaf> Isomorphism (B r) (A r) (T r) (S r) -> r
03:26:54 <shachaf> oerjan: We could sure use a nicer Iso. :-(
03:27:11 <Sgeo> It is becoming obvious that I don't understand delimited continuations as well as I thought
03:27:33 <oerjan> he said, before his brain exploded.
03:27:47 <elliott> shachaf: quote that and not the other one?
03:27:57 <Bike> of COURSE, if I just shift into four day cubic time then *boom*
03:28:14 <shachaf> elliott: Oh, I just gave the answer to oerjan's question.
03:28:20 <shachaf> (Isomorphic r, S r ~ Maybe (A r), T r ~ Maybe (A r), B r ~ A r) =>
03:28:51 <oerjan> (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA)
03:29:34 <monqy> what are S, T, A, B
03:30:20 <elliott> monqy: aren't you ready to get a s t a b.....
03:30:24 <monqy> this is S T A B...............................
03:30:39 <shachaf> monqy: haskell = casein sensitive
03:32:32 <oerjan> in fact haskell pays no attention to cheese at all
03:33:21 <shachaf> oerjan: You know the thing that's called "bulgarian cheese" in Hebrew?
03:33:36 <monqy> elliott: why would people name their type families S T A B
03:34:00 <shachaf> monqy: elliott just got startled
03:34:02 <oerjan> monqy: it's a very dysfunctional family
03:34:11 <elliott> monqy: some people know no taste. sooner or later they'll be getting a s t a b
03:34:23 <monqy> shachaf: do you know ?
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03:35:56 <shachaf> monqy: class Isomorphic r where iso :: (S r -> A r) -> (B r -> T r) -> r; type S; type T; type A; type B
03:36:13 <shachaf> monqy: class Isomorphic r where iso :: (S r -> A r) -> (B r -> T r) -> r; type S r; type T r; type A r; type B r
03:36:37 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicA (x :: *) :: *
03:36:37 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicB (x :: *) :: *
03:36:38 <shachaf> type family CoalgebraicF (x :: *) :: * -> *
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicA (a -> f_b) = a
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicB (a -> f b) = b
03:36:44 <shachaf> type instance CoalgebraicF (a -> f b) = f
03:36:52 <shachaf> instance (Functor f, x ~ (a -> f b), y ~ (s -> f t)) => Isomorphic (x -> y) where type S (x -> y) = CoalgebraicA y type T (x -> y) = CoalgebraicB y type A (x -> y) = CoalgebraicA x type B (x -> y) = CoalgebraicB x iso sa bt afb s = bt <$> afb (sa s)
03:37:08 <Bike> glad we got that cleared up.
03:37:09 <oerjan> i think shachaf is going critical. RUN!
03:37:34 <shachaf> oerjan: "don't worry it's constructive criticism"
03:37:54 <HackEgo> 175) Thanks to nooga for constructive criticism, his ideas and being a constant annoyance. --http://theendisnear.no-ip.info/ \ 720) <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you wrote a Haskell book, I would read it and possibly provide classical criticism. <shachaf> That is to say, non-constructive.
03:38:44 <oerjan> international mathematics olympiad 720
03:39:33 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSalienandpredat
03:39:49 <zzo38> Do you like my other symmetric variants too?
03:39:51 <shachaf> It has almost all the components.
03:40:12 <oerjan> microsoft aliens sound scary
03:40:13 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't mean the URL; I mean the game written by the rules described on that HTML page.
03:40:28 <shachaf> You want me to send an HTTP GET request.
03:40:33 <zzo38> oerjan: I think "MS" stands for "member submission".
03:40:50 <oerjan> oh it was submitted by alien members, ok
03:42:04 <shachaf> monqy: you should take the bus to san francisco
03:42:09 <zzo38> Other games I made which is symmetric variant of asymmetric game, is: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MStworingchess http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsymmetricsnark http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsymmetricmonst
03:42:26 <shachaf> Microsoft symmetric snark?
03:42:49 <oerjan> shachaf: it's what happens when their tech support goes _really_ wrong
03:44:26 <shachaf> zzo38: btw asymmetric ≻ symmetric
03:48:18 <kmc> ok i got GTA San Andreas to run in Wine
03:48:54 <zzo38> I have also, in comments on other pages, proposed symmetric variant of Angels and Devils.
03:49:16 <kmc> it works pretty well except that the world is filled with huge flickering multicolored polygons, and every object casts a trail of flame against the sky
03:49:26 <kmc> so i'm just going to play as if my character is tripping on acid
03:50:14 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know conal lives in San Andreas?
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03:51:00 <shachaf> kmc: Isn't that how you play "real life" too?
03:52:42 <kmc> not really
04:02:57 <zzo38> There are different definitions of "astrological age" which is not agreed on. As far as I know two is possible: [1] The constellation of the vernal equinox point. [2] The negative of ayanamsha. In the second case, you have to know what the reference date is!
04:03:06 <oerjan> elliott: wait, you haven't already?
04:03:08 <shachaf> I thought Agda was just Haskell with fancy types and ":" instead of "::".
04:03:41 <elliott> oerjan: i can't read their freaky unicode proofs
04:04:42 <zzo38> Agda is also require Unicode.
04:04:48 <zzo38> I don't like that.
04:04:57 <elliott> actually agda does not require unicode at all
04:05:17 <shachaf> The worse part is that you have to use Emacs. :-(
04:05:24 <shachaf> (It's actually not that bad.)
04:06:53 <zzo38> Haskell does not require Unicode, but it does supports it. Some libraries do have names only using non-ASCII, and GHC has no way to enter the name using Punycode or something like that!
04:07:11 <elliott> agda does not require unicode
04:07:21 <elliott> shachaf: do you know of any agda-mode docs
04:08:13 <shachaf> They're not terrible either.
04:08:13 <Bike> try C-h m to get the mode's online documentation.
04:08:33 <elliott> Bike: Also, "online documentation", really.
04:08:51 <shachaf> elliott: Do you use emacs for anything else?
04:09:28 <shachaf> You just have to know Emacs.
04:09:47 <shachaf> elliott: btw colenses are pretty cool right??
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04:09:57 <shachaf> I'm kind of annoyed at how ugly Isomorphic etc. are.
04:09:59 <elliott> shachaf: yo is there something like http://www.cse.chalmers.se/~nad/listings/lib/Category.Functor.html in the stdlib but that encodes the laws
04:10:02 <elliott> or do i gotta write this shit mysel
04:10:07 <HackEgo> epicmonkey: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:10:09 <kmc> http://blog.opensourcenerd.com/i-can-haz-virus this person seems to have some serious misunderstandings about what wine does and doesn't provide
04:10:39 <zzo38> They should add a pragma in GHC to allow you to write the names in ASCII, by specifying the quoted string of the Unicode name, and the unquoted name in ASCII; the first letter/symbol must have the same case. It also allow to specify alternative names for constructors, even if it is already ASCII.
04:10:45 <kmc> also lol @ the many commenters who think the difference between user account and root on a linux desktop is super important
04:11:19 <shachaf> elliott: https://github.com/copumpkin/categories/blob/master/Categories/Functor/Core.agda
04:11:44 <elliott> shachaf: I... don't want to use that.
04:11:52 <kmc> that is a really pervasive bit of cargo cult security
04:12:02 <kmc> it took me many years to realize how wrong it is
04:13:05 <monqy> i forget how emacs/agda-mode does its thing
04:15:54 <elliott> shachaf: does cabal install agda get me the stdlib
04:15:57 <elliott> or do i have to do my own stuff
04:16:13 <shachaf> elliott: I think it works?
04:16:27 <shachaf> elliott: Also you didn't answer my question.
04:18:31 <zzo38> Is there any 3D modeling that you can write x^2+y^2+z^2=25 and it will work?
04:19:28 <elliott> what's the composition law for functors called
04:20:56 <zzo38> I don't know if it is called anything other than a composition law for functors.
04:21:46 <elliott> shachaf: It doesn't find the stdlib.
04:23:21 <shachaf> elliott: Try apt-get install agda
04:23:30 <shachaf> apt-get install agda-stdlib
04:24:12 <zzo38> The "wgpluck" command in Csound seem to be good quality of plucked string sounds.
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04:41:00 <zzo38> Do you have reverb files for Stonehenge?
04:52:46 <ion> Are there samples of wgpluck somewhere?
04:54:09 <zzo38> ion: I don't know of any, but if you have Csound you can use the examples in http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/wgpluck.html
04:54:22 <zzo38> You can use it with real-time or you can send output to a sound file if you want that.
04:55:30 <zzo38> I also find using "wguide1" with PhISEM opcodes makes a nice sound too (although not a plucked string sound)
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05:01:35 <zzo38> ion: Do you need samples of Csound?
05:01:58 <ion> I already installed it and listened to them.
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06:21:08 <kmc> http://whyismarko.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/food-nativity.jpg
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06:23:51 <elliott> kmc: More like #messoteric, right?
06:24:12 <shachaf> elliott: what was monqy doing in #haskell
06:24:24 <elliott> @ask monqy <shachaf> elliott: what was monqy doing in #haskell
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07:06:02 -!- elliott has set topic: MEGA EXTRA SUPER FOREVER | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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07:22:51 <ion> I disagree with your chosen amount of Qs.
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07:28:24 <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:28:39 <fizzie> I'm just not getting usd to this.
07:29:13 <olsner> Getting used to being a train may be difficult, but with the right attitude you can!
07:29:43 <fizzie> At least it gives me consolation that the connection is terribly laggy.
07:29:46 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://cоdu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:29:47 <olsner> getting USD for being a train may be even more difficult
07:30:32 <fizzie> olsner: I don't know, you could rent yourself out to someone who needs a train for $$$ars.
07:30:56 <olsner> as I understand it, the money doesn't go to the train but usually to the owner of the train
07:31:25 <fizzie> So... that would conventionally be my wife, I guess?
07:32:05 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:32:16 <HackEgo> 861) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
07:32:29 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trains_owned_by_wifes
07:33:13 <fizzie> Oh, the train is also going to Turku, city of oklopol. I think.
07:33:28 <elliott> are you going to meet oklopol
07:34:26 <fizzie> I hope not, I'm not sure I'm prepared for that.
07:34:39 <elliott> how can you pass up the opportunity
07:34:43 <fizzie> I will be around what I think is his university, though.
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07:37:50 <fizzie> Oh no, this is stupid. I have this bluetooth headset that can be used as a regular headset with a cable, but when the battery is completely out (like now) it won't switch to the regular-headset mode.
07:38:18 <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
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07:39:04 <elliott> oklofok: you have to meet fizzie
07:39:10 <elliott> oklofok: travel to nearest train station
07:39:23 <elliott> oh right i wanted to addquote that
07:39:26 <fizzie> Look for a fizzie-shaped train?
07:39:31 <elliott> `addquote <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
07:39:34 <HackEgo> 862) <fizzie> I was hoping I could be like other people and listen to signals while in a public transport vehicle.
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07:50:37 <Sgeo|web> "SCP-411 speaks an as-yet-unknown dialect of English that has significant grammatical and vocabulary deviations from Modern English. Individuals who are to be given training in this language will benefit from a background in Spanish, Mandarin and/or Cantonese, ██████ and Haskell."
07:50:57 <Bike> that entry made me chuckle
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07:51:41 <Sgeo|web> Oh, I wasn't able to do the thing where I say monqy elliott
07:53:12 <coppro> damn, I should have beat you :P
07:54:11 <HackEgo> 158) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature.
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08:01:59 <ion> fizzie: mosh
08:11:28 <HackEgo> 488) <Phantom_Hoover> On further reflection, I think I did manage to miss winter and spring altogether. <Phantom_Hoover> This does explain the goblin siege I had in autumn.
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08:18:13 <elliott> ion: I think you are insufficiently agile.
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10:03:24 <monqy> MOG11111, excuse you
10:05:12 <Sgeo|MOG11111> Well, I didn't think a nick of Sgeo|MOG!!!!! would work
10:05:35 <shachaf> monqy: have you ever read the ghc inliner
10:05:53 <shachaf> monqy: do you know what main:Foo.Foo{v reR} means!
10:06:40 <shachaf> Oh, I finally got my verbose output!
10:07:02 <shachaf> Considering inlining: main:Foo.Foo{v reR} [gid[DataConWrapper]] arg infos [] uf arity 0 interesting continuation ArgCtxt False some_benefit False is exp: True is work-free: True guidance ALWAYS_IF(unsat_ok=True,boring_ok=True) ANSWER = YES
10:09:21 <shachaf> if you were ghc you would say ANSWER = YES
10:17:11 <ion> Also if you’re prolog.
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10:35:49 <xD> everything is so funny i decided this will save my time
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10:36:10 <elliott> Guest7699: fizzie is coming to yr town
10:36:30 <oklopol> [12:35:10] -NickServ- This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.
10:36:31 <oklopol> [12:35:10] -NickServ- You have 30 seconds to identify to your nickname before it is changed.
10:36:31 <oklopol> [12:35:39] -NickServ- You failed to identify in time for the nickname Xd
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10:37:40 <elliott> he may even be there right now
10:38:03 <elliott> oklopol: apparently he's going to your university-abouts
10:38:03 <oklopol> fizzie: where should we meet?
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10:39:58 <atriq> I'm kind of bored of being atriq
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10:50:44 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
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10:51:02 <shachaf> Pft. Why can't we be root?
10:52:06 <HackEgo> id: --context (-Z) works only on an SELinux-enabled kernel
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11:15:29 <atriq> How is the topic link doing that
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11:16:48 <Taneb> If I click it and say open in browser, it goes to http://xn--cdu-sed.org/logs/_esoteric/
11:17:25 <Deewiant> U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O
11:18:09 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://cоdu.org/lоgs/_еsоtеric/.
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12:06:39 <elliott> ais523: any idea what's up with http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=OISC&curid=1012&diff=34930&oldid=33316?
12:07:08 <elliott> not sure the link actually is relevant -- I can't tell what it's on about and certainly it is in the wrong section -- but the commentless removal is a bit odd
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12:15:43 <fizzie> What is this about meeting people. :/
12:16:04 <fizzie> I am at the ICT building, I think I'll be mostly in hiding.
12:17:06 <elliott> oklopol: fizzie is at the ICT building
12:17:43 <fizzie> "Seppo Pulkkinen, Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Turku" is this guy from your guys?
12:17:53 <fizzie> He's talking about something.
12:18:39 <fizzie> I'll be here in this thing until 18 and my train away leaves Kupittaa at 19, so there.
12:19:15 <elliott> oklopol: THERE'S NOT MUCH TIME
12:22:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I AM BUSY ORGANISING A MEETING OF FINNS
12:22:37 <Phantom_Hoover> you can run worldgen in the background while doing that!
12:23:25 <elliott> Without fully devoting my attention to it????
12:24:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it's worldgen man, you just watch 3 numbers increment at an ever-slower rate
12:24:55 <elliott> This is why you are hopeless Phantom_Hoover
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12:39:38 <c00kiemon5ter> sleep is that time of the day when people don't pay attention as I break into their kitchens looking steal'em cookies
12:42:08 <nortti> sleep is what happens when you have too much blood in your caffeine circulation
12:42:31 <monqy> that's kinda gross nortti
12:43:07 <monqy> blood in my caffeine??gross
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12:52:35 <Taneb> Just caused some nostalgia
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12:56:14 <Taneb> Reminded a couple of people of something they were planning to make years ago
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13:43:21 <oklopol> fizzie: seppo works in the same tiny building as me
13:47:22 <elliott> you have to get to the ICT building!!!
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13:48:51 <nooga> where's the topic?
13:49:08 <elliott> oklopol: you are depriving fizzie of a once-in-a-lifetime experience to meet oklopol!!
13:49:16 <elliott> and also: the first #esoteric meeting ever
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13:50:23 <fizzie> This Seppo is talking about "Optimization Algorithms for Large-Scale and Robust Dimensionality Reduction" soon.
13:50:54 <fizzie> I think it's going to involve numbers.
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14:01:51 <elliott> ais523: you have to convince oklopol to travel a short distance to see fizzie, right now
14:04:15 <fizzie> And fizzie to not run away and hide from the impending oklopol.
14:05:57 <elliott> oklopol: i'll pay you 30 pounds gbp to go do it
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14:07:48 <oklopol> sorry i have works to do :(
14:15:21 <arcatan> elliott seems to be passionate about this
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14:17:30 <elliott> arcatan: it is of great theological importance
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15:50:44 <ais523_> remember oracle versus google?
15:51:03 <ais523_> I, umm, may have paraphrased the spec for rangeCheck and set it as an exercise for a bunch of first years
15:52:34 <ais523_> around half of them got it exactly on spec, which is less than I expected
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16:27:16 <oklofok> but i met seppo on his way back from the thingie
16:28:20 <Gregor> Oh seppo. And the thingie. Ha ha ha, I'm participating.
16:42:56 <ais523_> suggested type for an esolang: int™
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16:58:55 <fizzie> oklofok: It's all right, I kind of had to go eat with the Hatutus folks.
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16:59:18 <fizzie> Though now my 19:06 train has been delayed to 19:24.
16:59:30 <fizzie> Pattern recognition research society.
16:59:43 <fizzie> Hahmontunnistustutkimuksen seura.
17:00:04 <fizzie> It was our twice-a-year meeting/seminar that I was here for.
17:01:40 -!- truckngear06 has joined.
17:02:36 <HackEgo> truckngear06: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:02:42 <ais523_> wow, HackEgo was fast that time
17:02:54 <ais523_> and yes, 24.231.195.104, or possibly 104.195.231.24
17:03:43 <ais523_> connecting anywhere on the internet sends your IP to the site you connect to
17:06:30 <oklofok> fizzie: do you know seppo?
17:07:02 <fizzie> oklofok: No, I just listened to his talk.
17:07:44 <fizzie> ais523_: Hey, your computer may be broadcasting an IP address.
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17:10:58 <fizzie> oklofok: I... suppose? It was about doing this one thing faster than other people do that thing. He claimed he's the only one from "his people" dabbling with anything pattern-recognition related.
17:12:32 <fizzie> oklofok: It was the optimization problem related to this maximum-variance based dimensionality reduction method that works well if there's an underlying low-dimensional description for the points of the high-dimensional dataset.
17:13:07 <fizzie> Also there was a thing about doing it well even if the data is a bit noisy and not strictly on the low-dimensional thing.
17:13:49 <fizzie> Based on projecting it onto a thing formed by ridges of the density function of the data set.
17:14:14 <ais523_> hmm, that channel join was weird
17:14:28 <ais523_> we get people like that in #nethack sometimes, mislead by the name
17:15:06 <fizzie> There was electricity just a moment ago.
17:15:23 <fizzie> I suspect this phone is "acting up" occasionally.
17:15:44 <fizzie> Oh well, I'll just wait until the train gets here. ->
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17:29:12 <kmc> yeah #hackage got some of those too :)
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17:53:35 <fizzie> Bleh. Left 19:49, 43 minutes late. Is this the famed Finnish punctuality? (Okay, there is no such thing.)
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18:11:27 <FreeFull> fizzie: So if you have a set of 4D points
18:11:51 <FreeFull> But the fourth coordinate is just random quantised noise between -0.5 and 0.5
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18:15:42 <fizzie> FreeFull: Don't ask me, ask Seppo. Maybe it will. That kind of thing *is* one of the common types of toy data; many methods do suppress that sort of thing pretty well.
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18:39:23 <olsner> fizzie: did you meet oklofok?
18:40:58 <fizzie> Such a loss for the advancement of the human race &c.
18:42:02 <olsner> a day of mourning for all of oklokind
18:45:06 <fizzie> "This is not a national day of mourning in Helsinki, Finland's capital -- these are Finns in their natural state: brooding, private, grimly in touch with no-one but themselves."
18:46:43 <fizzie> So started a "60 minutes" (US TV show) segment about tango's popularity in Finland.
18:46:53 <fizzie> It was apparently considered quite rude.
18:47:19 <fizzie> The visuals were random clips from Helsinki streets.
18:47:43 <fizzie> Admittedly the adjectives described them quite well.
18:49:47 <fizzie> Though I'm not sure if early morning commuters (especially in bad weather) tend to look all that happy anywhere.
18:49:55 <fizzie> Or at least manywhere.
18:50:32 <fizzie> It's like "anywhere" except not meaning quite all the places, just many of them.
18:51:49 <oklofok> not all finns like the antisocial stereotype?
18:51:52 -!- Bike has joined.
18:52:11 <oklofok> don't we have like the best one there is
18:52:17 <olsner> hmm, I think 'anywhere' sometimes means something more like 'somewhere' ... feels a bit like universal/existential quantification
18:52:47 <olsner> maybe there should also be a 'fewwhere'
18:53:35 <fizzie> oklofok: As I understood it, the show was just considered taking the thing too far. But I'unno.
18:54:00 <fizzie> "THigh quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e33f00e-a36e-11e1-ab98-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz2E15YAoQo
18:54:22 <fizzie> You stupid piece of stupidest stupidity.
18:54:38 <fizzie> I hadn't highlighted the initial "T" so I typed it myself.
18:54:48 <oklofok> i don't get it, it's not even racist because most finns are white
18:56:20 <oklofok> also do i need to register
18:56:31 <fizzie> Well, feel free to peruse the link, if you want to visit a page which programmatically ejaculates stupidity all over a copy-paste.
18:57:29 <fizzie> Apparently there is a "8 free articles per month" thing.
18:57:48 <fizzie> So be careful about wasting one of your valuable free articles for *that*.
18:58:16 <fizzie> "The report goes on to say that the prescriptive tango dance sessions, with their set times when men can ask women to dance or the other way around, are perfect for shy Finns and that the lessons and dances give them a “licence to touch” one another."
18:58:28 <fizzie> There you go, that's what I wanted to paste.
18:58:53 <fizzie> I pasted it ALL OVER. All over the Internet. It's probably in dozens of places now.
18:59:05 <fizzie> How do you like that, FT?
19:00:29 <fizzie> This train, it is exactly an hour late.
19:01:24 <fizzie> The next TurkufHelsinki train was supposed to leave an hour after this one, I wonder if it's right behind there.
19:03:47 <oklofok> also 8 whole articles? that's huge
19:13:21 -!- soundnfury has joined.
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19:15:51 -!- nortti has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :(.
19:15:59 <fizzie> Maybe it's just invisible.
19:16:27 <olsner> but there is no link to the logs now!
19:17:37 -!- Gregor has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :( | No more logs :(.
19:18:14 -!- nortti has set topic: < AnotherTest> No more topic :( | No more logs :( | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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19:18:35 -!- olsner has set topic: No more :(.
19:18:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail.
19:20:30 <kmc> gobble gobble
19:20:33 <nortti> how did you get so legit url?
19:23:16 <Gregor> ... two people in the cubes next to me are arguing about using oil vs butter in brownies X_X
19:24:07 <olsner> if brownies is similar to what I think it is similar to, oil doesn't work
19:25:37 <fizzie> What about oil v. butten in ponies?
19:25:53 <Gregor> fizzie: You sick, sick fuck.
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20:54:07 <oerjan> <c00kiemon5ter> sleep is that time of the day when people don't pay attention as I break into their kitchens looking steal'em cookies <-- i suggest not trying that with me.
20:55:57 <oerjan> <elliott> oklopol: you are depriving fizzie of a once-in-a-lifetime experience to meet oklopol!! <-- has anyone on this channel ever successfully met oklopol?
20:56:54 <oerjan> fellow clones don't count, fizzie
20:57:33 <oerjan> <elliott> and also: the first #esoteric meeting ever <-- oh.
20:57:40 <olsner> maybe we should all go visit oklopol at the same time some time
20:58:01 <olsner> ... and get murdered by his 15 clones
20:58:52 <oerjan> c00kiemon5ter: (1) i don't sleep at sane times (2) i have no cookies afaik. (although there is milk chocolate.)
20:59:09 <fizzie> I've technically met some #esoteric people; mooz, ineiros, and sort of unidirectionally Deewiant in that he's seen me several times but I still don't know what he looks like.
20:59:14 <oerjan> (1)(*) except by accident
20:59:47 <olsner> if you count "technically", maybe you'd have to count IRC and that's boring
21:01:00 <fizzie> The first two are "technically" in the "#esoteric people" aspect (mooz hasn't been here in a long time, ineiros is mute) while the last is "technically" in the "meet" aspect.
21:01:56 <oerjan> i must have met [[User:Rune]] from the wiki at some time, although this was surely before #esoteric existed.
21:02:01 <fizzie> fungot: Have you met any of the people here?
21:02:01 <fungot> fizzie: later tell sjamaan also, the convention of returning the offset. i normally do that, though
21:02:14 <arcatan> i've met some of the guys here before joining this channel. hmm.
21:02:22 <fizzie> I think shachaf and kmc have met.
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21:02:43 <fizzie> At least it's the sort of "vibe" I've gotten from there.
21:02:51 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
21:03:44 <olsner> oh, shachaf and kmc have a vibe? good for them!
21:03:46 <arcatan> "unidirectionally meeting people" is a great term
21:04:28 <fizzie> I suppose it doesn't really count as a "#esoteric meet" unless the meeting happens first on-channel and only later in real life, possibly even with a causal relationship to the on-channel meeting.
21:05:06 <oerjan> fizzie: my chances are truly slim, then.
21:05:24 <fizzie> Since there's a connotation of the channel having brought the people involved together.
21:06:53 <Arc_Koen> well what if they first met irl but it didn't work out and then they met again on the channel and realized how much they shared
21:08:53 <arcatan> I've also met Lumpio- and nortti, and unidirectionally met at least atehwa
21:09:03 <shachaf> fizzie: Are you sure you're not thinking of HackEgo?
21:09:04 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
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21:09:53 <oerjan> <elliott> arcatan: it is of great theological importance <-- it would provide nearly incontrovertible proof that the people on #esoteric are not just figments of imagination!
21:10:12 <fizzie> Is arcatan some kind of a Finn too? I mean, that's a very suspicious list.
21:10:29 <shachaf> Hm, I've met at least four people in this channel.
21:10:33 <oerjan> fizzie: /whois corroborates that
21:10:47 <shachaf> Not including myself and lambdabot.
21:10:59 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
21:12:00 <oerjan> /whois corun show up a not-very-finnish looking whowas
21:12:33 <olsner> you don't have to be finnish to drive the bus
21:12:35 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, no one said that sentence has anything to do with the preceding two. Corun drives the bus.
21:13:04 <olsner> Lumpio-: the bus that Corun drives
21:13:06 <Lumpio-> The usual interpretation of that would be the Corun drives the bus of Finland (yes, *the* bus)
21:13:10 <oerjan> i was assuming the finnish bus.
21:13:13 <monqy> why would you need multiple buses for a country with only two people
21:13:24 <monqy> silly question.........................
21:13:33 <olsner> especially when 9 of them are on IRC and don't need bussing around in the first place
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21:15:46 <shachaf> monqy: to get from one end of the country to the other??
21:15:57 <shachaf> monqy: use logic next time ok
21:17:12 <oerjan> <fizzie> oklofok: I... suppose? It was about doing this one thing faster than other people do that thing. He claimed he's the only one from "his people" dabbling with anything pattern-recognition related.
21:17:30 <oerjan> i get this vibe fizzie is becoming more similar to fungot, in that dog/owner sense
21:17:31 <fungot> oerjan: richard stallman, fnord, desolation, and fnord is on the eso forum to demonstrate.
21:17:33 <nooga> pattern recognition
21:19:12 <nooga> pattern recognition
21:20:02 <fizzie> I am not like fungot! The whole idea is ludicrous. That sword alone can't stop.
21:20:03 <fungot> fizzie: ccnum.scm released. http://www.neilvandyke.org/ weblog/". tell me if astyle works on fnord
21:20:38 <oerjan> ...i cannot `addquote a conversation including me, can i?
21:21:08 <Gregor> Nothing's stopping you, but if you do, you'll be killed and fed to starving children.
21:21:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
21:21:21 <Gregor> So all said and done it's a good deed.
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21:22:25 -!- Gregor has set topic: Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
21:22:43 <nooga> 22:07 < oerjan> very romantic!
21:22:44 <nooga> 22:21 < oerjan> very tempting, then
21:22:46 <kmc> yes shachaf and i have met irl
21:22:49 <nooga> i see a pattern here
21:22:56 <kmc> once at boston python and once at the stripe ctf meetup in sf
21:22:59 <kmc> and maybe another time
21:23:07 <kmc> we are more awkward in person
21:23:35 <arcatan> hey, does anyone know about a programming language based on minimization? like the µ operator for µ-recursive functions
21:24:02 <nooga> well plaid, oerjan
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21:30:21 <oerjan> <olsner> hmm, I think 'anywhere' sometimes means something more like 'somewhere' ... feels a bit like universal/existential quantification <-- maybe, but recall that scandinavian languages don't have distinct words for english "some" and "any"
21:31:31 <shachaf> @google trebla any all some
21:31:33 <lambdabot> http://www.vex.net/~trebla/weblog/any-all-some.html
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21:42:01 <oerjan> back to your old atriq
21:42:10 <atriq> Different computer
21:42:15 <atriq> Different settings
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21:42:31 <fizzie> If you order a klein bottle shipped via USPS/UPS/DHL/whatever, will the tracking page say "volume: 0"?
21:42:45 <Ngevd> fizzie, if it's not in a box
21:42:45 <lambdabot> Ngevd: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:42:46 <kmc> if you order helium balloons does it have a negative weight
21:42:59 <Bike> i don't think usps usually ships through the fourth dimension
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21:43:22 <fizzie> I don't know if they measure mass or weight. I mean, the do state it in grams.
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21:44:28 <fizzie> (By way of context, according to the post office parcel tracking system, what they're delivering to me has a mass of 0.00 kg and a volume of 0 m^3, but I didn't order a massless klein bottle.)
21:45:43 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sorry, only dour puns allowed today
21:46:13 <fizzie> That sounds like an incantation.
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21:46:30 <fizzie> Ia, ia, vba brewna zbadl!
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21:54:18 <shachaf> ^rot13 olsner oklofok oklopol
21:54:19 <fungot> byfare bxybsbx bxybcby
21:56:30 <fizzie> fungot: Did you hear that?
21:56:30 <fungot> fizzie: still had the older version) somewhere else. what unclear in that? :)
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22:24:17 <olsner> oerjan: nånstans, varsomhelst, överallt?
22:24:29 <olsner> not as systematic as X-where, but whatever
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22:27:54 <oerjan> olsner: anywhere can also be translated as nånstans in some uses
22:30:14 <olsner> that's what I was referring to
22:30:28 <shachaf> kmc: Would that Hotspot trick help for something like GHC's GC, where it does a comparison and conditional jump on every allocation?
22:30:37 <oerjan> some = nån, any = nån or vilkensomhelst, depending on meaning (modulo actual swedish spelling)
22:30:43 <shachaf> I suppose the overhead of a page fault is too high for how often it needs to GC.
22:30:48 <kmc> shachaf: maybe
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22:31:12 <kmc> you might use it for cheap checkpoints in allocation-free loops
22:31:18 <oerjan> nooodl: ONLY DOUR PUNS, I SAID
22:31:18 <kmc> but ezyang has a different clever solution
22:31:21 <kmc> that i think is implemented
22:32:31 <olsner> oerjan: säg ett datum, vilket som helst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QXL-o8DQM4)
22:32:41 <oerjan> nooodl: almost the opposite of fun
22:32:42 <kmc> you compile your loops with whatever check, and then you copy that page of code and make another page which is exactly the same except that the checks are replaced by NOPs
22:33:00 <oerjan> olsner: um "datum" isn't a common norwegian word, please clarify
22:33:00 <fizzie> oerjan has a dour odour.
22:33:01 <kmc> then when another thread wants to make your thread stop at a checkpoint, it masks the appropriate bit in the instruction pointer
22:34:05 <olsner> i.e. calendar date, not the fruit or the activity
22:36:26 <olsner> a date had a date with a date, but the date forgot the date
22:36:57 <fizzie> But the future refused to change.
22:50:12 <Arc_Koen> and p a program in befunge-93, except with unbounded playfield (instructions p and g have access to an infinite grid)
22:51:18 <Arc_Koen> well numbers on the befunge stack are bounded so let's say that it's an infinity of bound * bound squares, and p and g can only affect cells in the square the ip currently is in, or something
22:51:36 <Arc_Koen> so running the program (n, p) is similar to running p as befunge
22:51:55 <Arc_Koen> except that every instruction goes along with an accumulator
22:52:14 <Arc_Koen> and if ever one instruction's accumulator goes higher than n execution halts
22:53:49 <coppro> may the nonzero subset of the field be unbounded? May it be aperiodic?
22:53:56 <oerjan> um is the accumulator tied to the spot in the playfield?
22:54:47 <coppro> if aperiodic, it's quite trivial
22:55:11 <oerjan> i don't think you need that. finite initial setup should be sufficient.
22:55:49 <Arc_Koen> not sure I understand your questions
22:56:01 <Arc_Koen> idea is playfield is infinite and each cell has an accumulator
22:56:23 <oerjan> but is the initial program infinite?
22:57:08 <oerjan> well i think you can do a turing machine that copies itself in some direction each step
22:57:28 <oerjan> you need a big n, obviously
22:57:34 <Arc_Koen> if n = 1 then creating a new instruction costs you an instruction
22:58:05 <coppro> yeah, this seems doable
22:58:44 <Arc_Koen> also: is there some constant N such that the subset of pairs (N, p) is also turing-complete?
22:59:08 <Arc_Koen> that would force you to write quining befunge programs :)
22:59:21 <oerjan> ...you have to do that anyhow
23:00:12 <oerjan> or perhaps a cellular automaton is more intuitive than a TM here
23:00:46 <Arc_Koen> ("that" was the whole thing, not the bound on n
23:02:15 <oerjan> well i would then represent each CA cell as a subsquare of the befunge program that takes care of copying itself to the next level and calculating the right CA value to put there
23:06:25 <fizzie> Can you write anything into an empty square, though?
23:06:39 <oerjan> isn't that what p does?
23:06:42 <fizzie> The p doing the writing would have to be in that square.
23:07:32 <oerjan> not _that_ big squares, smaller than the relative wrapping
23:07:37 <fizzie> "an infinity of bound * bound squares, and p -- can only affect cells in the square the ip currently is in" kind of square.
23:08:11 <oerjan> yes, but the squares to represent cells don't have to be anywhere near as large as bound * bound, if bound is something like 2^23
23:08:34 <fizzie> Yes, but wouldn't you eventually have to get out of the wrapping-square?
23:08:47 <fizzie> If the cells in it wear out and all.
23:08:47 <oerjan> oh. i was assuming the bound*bound squares were centered on the current ip
23:09:10 <fizzie> That's not what it sounds like, but I guess it could be.
23:09:23 <oerjan> otherwise there could be a problem yeah
23:10:14 <oerjan> i guess what Arc_Koen actually said doesn't imply overlapping
23:10:28 <fizzie> It *sounds* like there's a fixed grid of squares, but that might be just me.
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23:11:25 <oerjan> i don't know befunge well enough to know whether there is an instruction that could get around that
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23:12:19 <oerjan> you could save data on the stack instead of moving across the boundary directly, but you would still need some way to get a minimal program into a non-used square
23:12:52 <oerjan> to do the copying from the stack to a nearly empty square
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23:14:17 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Befunge-93 seems to have nothing other than p
23:14:21 <fizzie> I don't think 93 has anything that can write to playfield except p.
23:14:39 <fizzie> 98 also has s which might work though would be quite awkward to use.
23:15:19 <fizzie> It writes a character to pos+delta, but I can't recall if it the skips that character or not.
23:15:41 <fizzie> Of course it'd wrap so maybe it's not a problem even if it skips it.
23:15:53 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: so i think we are going to need the p restricting squares to be overlapping for this to work
23:15:57 <fizzie> Moot point, of course, since it wasn't 98.
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23:31:20 <zzo38> I have now my own concept, another way to group pokemons, where each pokemon also belongs to a "prefix group". A prefix group is identified by zero, one, or two letters. All official pokemons belong to the Nintendo prefix group, identified by no letters. There is a partial order on prefix groups, with Nintendo being initial.
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23:33:36 <zzo38> It is designed to be usable with battle simulators supporting custom pokemon species.
23:35:41 <zzo38> So that the ID could fit in a six character field. It could be extended to three letters if necessary.
23:36:18 <shachaf> 703 is hardly better than 1.
23:36:35 <zzo38> Possibly even four or five if the number of species per those groups is very small.
23:36:58 <shachaf> "zzo" would make a good prefix group.
23:37:09 <shachaf> Where does your nick come from, anyway?
23:37:28 <zzo38> I don't actually know for sure.
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23:43:20 <zzo38> What is the best way to represent the partial ordering in the computer?
23:45:23 <zzo38> I wanted to do something in a ASCII text file which is both readable by people and processable by computer.
23:45:44 <zzo38> And in a packed form that does not necessarily require every one.
23:46:04 <zzo38> As well as being easy to correct.
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00:00:01 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh, right. otherwise a square that was initially empty can never be written to from out, but if the ip enters a square that's empty it will exit without performing any writing...
00:02:48 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well partial orders over a finite set are basically trees
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00:06:04 <Arc_Koen> after all we do talk about "genealogy trees" even though they're not trees either
00:06:51 <Arc_Koen> well I can be the descendant of two people which are cousins
00:06:55 * oerjan gently teaches Bike about incest
00:07:24 * Arc_Koen didn't even realized there was something wrong with that
00:07:25 * oerjan notes he may have been unusually creepy today
00:07:33 <Fiora> they're directed acyclic graphs, right...?
00:07:47 <oerjan> Fiora: barring time travel hth
00:07:53 * Gregor gently teaches oerjan that we're ALL cousins.
00:08:04 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:08:13 <shachaf> Gregor: I thought we were all brothers and sisters.
00:08:30 <Fiora> true... the homestuck family geneology consists entirely of cycles
00:08:40 <shachaf> Did you read that one story by Heinlein?
00:08:43 <Bike> oh, i was confusing dags with possibly cyclic graphs, durr.
00:08:46 <Gregor> The only way you can be the child of two people who are not cousins (and it's just a matter of terminology) is if they're siblings, uncles/aunts/nieces/nephews, or direct linear descendents/ancestors.
00:09:07 <Bike> shachaf: he wrote a few about time travel fuckery? you probably mean all you zombies though
00:09:21 <shachaf> On the topic of family graphs.
00:09:38 <Bike> @google the man who folded himself
00:09:39 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Folded_Himself
00:09:39 <lambdabot> Title: The Man Who Folded Himself - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:10:07 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I'm pretty sure back to the future is about marty having sex with his mother
00:10:12 <Bike> then we could read his stories about spacetime incest in peace.
00:10:19 <shachaf> What was that other time travel thing he wrote?
00:10:41 <Gregor> By the way, white folk (probably most of you), did you know that you're part neanderthal? It's true!
00:11:04 <Bike> i was thinking of... i forget the title, time enough for love maybe? i think he has sex with his mother, and also twin clones of himself or something
00:11:17 <shachaf> By His Bootstraps is the on I was thinking of there.
00:11:17 <Fiora> is there any racial group that isn't part neanderthal?
00:11:30 <shachaf> Also The Door Into Summer. That was a good one.
00:11:45 <Bike> homo sapiens purity. purge the nonafricans
00:12:17 <Gregor> Well I, for one, find it fascinating, so nyaa.
00:12:27 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: so maybe you can have each line be an ordered list of prefixes
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00:12:49 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: and some "debugger" would tell you if there are redundancies
00:13:27 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: OK. I can try that.
00:13:44 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not sure whether redundancy is good or bad
00:13:55 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't the point at which the human ancestor pool merges at most a few millenia ago
00:14:56 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read _The Door Into Summer_?
00:15:04 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: additionally the 'debugger' could also warn you of "nodes" which are not at the beginning of a line
00:15:32 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: It's closer to 200,000 years.
00:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I think everyone has *some* Neanderthal ancestors, Africans just don't have many.
00:16:46 <Gregor> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam // one ancestor is as recent as 60,000 years, but no more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve // the other, ~200,000 years.
00:17:02 <Arc_Koen> that's not what they said in stargate
00:17:21 <shachaf> Adam and Eve were born 140,000 years apart?
00:17:45 <Arc_Koen> I think in some episode they find a frozen human body that's a hundred million years or so old
00:18:00 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The last real merge of humanity into a single pool was before the latest exodus from Africa (duh), and our intermingling with neanderthals just after it.
00:18:01 <shachaf> Gregor: Please use https: Wikipedia links.
00:18:31 <Phantom_Hoover> One migrant can very quickly propagate their ancestry through an isolated population.
00:18:51 <Arc_Koen> shachaf: yeah that's gotta count as statutory rape or something
00:19:30 <shachaf> Hmm, I suppose "born" isn't quite the right word to use there.
00:19:54 <Bike> i thought the last common ancestor thing was at the bottleneck after that explosion in east asia.
00:20:02 <oerjan> <shachaf> Adam and Eve were born 140,000 years apart? <-- basically males tend to spread their genes faster than females, so the direct male lines also die out faster
00:20:05 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: The study they did found /no/ neanderthal genomes in modern Africans.
00:20:13 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor#MRCA_of_all_living_humans ?
00:20:23 <Gregor> (For the group they studied)
00:20:39 <shachaf> edwardk did that skew binary online LCA thing.
00:21:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "The identical ancestors point for Homo sapiens has been estimated to between 15,000 and 5,000 years ago."
00:21:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> Gregor: Please use https: Wikipedia links. <-- please don't
00:21:39 <oerjan> (sure i can edit them by hand...)
00:22:10 <shachaf> oerjan: What's the matter with https:?
00:22:11 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: do you mean males can use the 9-month pause in the spreading somewhere to start spreading elsewhere?
00:22:39 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: SOMETHING LIKE THAT
00:23:33 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: That statistic is contrary to everything else I have ever read, including in relevant college courses >_>
00:24:21 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm when i tested now it worked fine, i'm still logged in and everything.
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00:24:51 <shachaf> I bet oerjan is just the NSA trying to spy on my Wikipedia readin's.
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00:27:20 <oerjan> Gregor: could be true though, that ancestor can be through mixed male and female lines after all, so not as restricted as "adam" and "eve"
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00:28:37 <oerjan> and because of this, you cannot simply measure it by comparing dna like with the single-line inherited parts
00:29:37 <oerjan> heh, "It is incorrect to assume that the MRCA passed all of his or her genes (or indeed any gene) down to every person alive."
00:30:11 <oerjan> we could have a common ancestor that left no genes at all...
00:31:16 <Fiora> I like the Ship of Theseus mention
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00:32:19 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: of course at that point you're feeling the urge to do the math
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00:32:34 <oerjan> oh identical ancestors point is something else again
00:33:41 <oerjan> in fact i think we discussed that very concept on the channel a while ago
00:35:03 <Gregor> So, it looks like all the stuff suggesting 15,000-5,000 years is based on computer models of human populations.
00:35:33 <Arc_Koen> they didn't even bother to build a time machine to conduct the experiment?
00:35:35 <Gregor> Whereas the recent (2010) study finding neanderthal genes was, y'know, not models. It was people, and their genes.
00:35:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but you haven't actually addressed the point about common ancestors not necessarily implying common genes.
00:36:20 <Gregor> Right, if there's sufficiently little flow then they can end up sort of flushing the last bits out anyway.
00:36:27 <Gregor> And still having neanderthals in their line.
00:37:47 <Gregor> I suppose we're not :)
00:37:59 <Gregor> I just preferred the original interpretation to the possibly-more-accurate one ;)
00:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose the accurate version is "you're descended from Neanderthals, but if you're African you might as well not be".
00:46:04 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: What did you mean, note not at the beginning of a line?
00:46:43 <zzo38> Why does the Haskell read function not allow comments?
00:47:30 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: hmmm well imagine if you have a line "2 4 12 24 48" and another line "3 6 12 36"
00:47:39 <Arc_Koen> then the two lines "cross" at 12
00:48:15 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure that's a problem; maybe crossing prefixes should be hilighted or something
00:49:05 <Arc_Koen> because that makes 36 bigger than 2
00:49:56 <Arc_Koen> so when you're for instance looking for "all prefixes bigger than 2" you might want not to scan all the lines, only the lines for which the first element is bigger than 2
00:50:20 <Arc_Koen> sorry I did not mean "cross" I meant "merge"
00:50:22 <oerjan> i think what you want to avoid for redundancy is anything that can be deduced from transitivity. i.e. don't list adjacently any prefixes that have intermediate ones between them
00:50:40 <oerjan> so if you have 2 4 12, then 2 12 would not be allowed.
00:51:04 <oerjan> oh and of course no adjacent pairs should be repeated
00:51:04 <zzo38> Well, perhaps it should still be allowed even though it is redundant, it could still be a warning.
00:51:31 <zzo38> But there is not allowed different ones equal in this context so that would be error.
00:51:34 <Arc_Koen> though I'm not so sure it's such a bad thing - maybe you very much want one prefix to be lower than another, notwithstanding intermediate prefixes
00:52:24 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: um that's an automatic consequence, since this is a partial order
00:52:28 <Arc_Koen> it should of course check for cycles and stuff
00:52:29 <zzo38> One idea I have is, every line only lists what is lesser, and some things are deduced from transitivity
00:53:00 <zzo38> I wanted to use Haskell format, but the read function doesn't allow comments, so I won't use that.
00:53:06 <oerjan> you only need to list things that are "closest neighbors"
00:53:11 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: I'm talking about "maintainability" of the partial order description file :)
00:54:14 <zzo38> Well, this file will contain more than just the partial order.
00:56:51 <oerjan> although i am also thinking you might want to have groupings. for example if you have 1 4, 1 5, 1 6, 2 4, 2 5, 2 6, 3 4, 3 5, 3 6 then it would be shorter to say that all of 1 2 and 3 are smaller than all of 4 5 and 6 if you can name groups.
00:58:01 <oerjan> hm this is almost essentially the same problem as how to design a more flexible way of giving haskell operator precedences
00:58:23 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: oh you only make pairs?
00:58:30 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking you could make whole lines
00:58:41 <Arc_Koen> ie compress 1 2, 2 3, 3 4 as 1 2 3 4
00:58:43 <zzo38> oerjan: I really think the operator precedences ought to be surreal numbers.
00:58:52 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: that was just in that example, which had no lines to make
00:59:49 <Arc_Koen> maybe you could make 1 2 3 an equivalency class if they share the same properties
00:59:52 <oerjan> zzo38: ...but those are totally ordered, which may be unsuitable... oh well right, there are other issues with operators.
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01:00:08 <Arc_Koen> and maybe you could give a scope to that class if they don't have all their properties in common
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01:02:40 <zzo38> I don't know exactly what the file syntax should be, although probably not Haskell because its read function does not parse comments.
01:03:35 <zzo38> But I did think of the idea to make the partial ordering, but if you have a better idea you can specify your ideas too.
01:05:28 <Arc_Koen> what is the ordering be used for anyway?
01:06:25 <zzo38> Well, it is an optional feature (programs using this file are not required to support it), but can be used to define "baby pokemon" according to the definition I used, if you want to use that definition.
01:14:33 <zzo38> Would you like this: this_prefix(lesser_prefixes): "text" url
01:17:04 <zzo38> The URL can be any internet URL, telephone, postal address, or ISBN.
01:17:38 <zzo38> Perhaps also allow Tor domains.
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01:18:24 <zzo38> If the list of lesser prefixes is empty you omit the parentheses; if you include them with nothing in between, it includes a single entry which is the empty (Nintendo) prefix.
01:20:25 <zzo38> The URL and text is recommended to be ASCII, although Unicode is allowed (including Conscripts), however they must be encoded using ASCII format: For URL, encoding using % or punycode. For text, encoded using Haskell string literal syntax.
01:20:45 <oerjan> somehow i'm thinking the other way around would be more logical, with () meaning empty, since it is explicit
01:20:46 <zzo38> Comments have # at front of the line.
01:21:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, maybe...
01:26:12 <zzo38> Still, I am thinking () is a single blank prefix, because the entries separated by commas, and so no comma = 1 entry, which is blank.
01:26:20 <zzo38> That is why I did it that way.
01:30:26 <lambdabot> *** "avuncular" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
01:30:26 <lambdabot> adj 1: resembling a uncle in kindness or indulgence
01:32:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Why do you think other way is really more logical?
01:33:28 <Bike> oh hey, i remember that word from anthropology class. are you still looking up MRCA stuff?
01:35:33 <oerjan> zzo38: well i guess it's intuitive from what () means in haskell, like in import lists and tuples.
01:36:23 <zzo38> Well, yes but if it is Haskell we would use square brackets because it is a list.
01:36:43 <oerjan> i guess C tends to use more of () as "use defaults" sometimes
01:36:48 <oerjan> zzo38: not in import lists
01:37:12 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, yes, in import lists () does mean an empty list, and nothing at all means, it is everything.
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01:39:00 <zzo38> And even if it is Haskell, this isn't an import list anyways.
01:40:21 <oerjan> more like an inheritance list. but haskell has (A a, B a) => for that instead.
01:40:59 <zzo38> No, it isn't an inheritance list either; it is only a partial ordering.
01:41:38 * oerjan no good argue about not facts
01:42:07 <oerjan> you look very avuncular today
01:42:32 <zzo38> Even then, for an inheritance list, omitting it does not mean it inherits everything or meaning it inherits anything which it will not inherit if you do include the list. And with import lists, no () means import everything, which is also different to mine.
01:42:51 <zzo38> So, either way, it doesn't work.
01:45:14 <zzo38> Now you may see what my logic is, although other ideas are still possible, such as something before or after each item, so you explicitly know the empty item.
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02:04:06 <zzo38> The file "interlocks.h" for Csound, is I cannot find a document of it, but I look at the other codes to try to figure it out, but still I don't know what SB and _QQ mean, and some codes also use 0x20 as an interlock value and I don't know what that means either.
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02:11:54 <zzo38> #define MEMDEF(x) x; typedef struct { x object[sizeof(x)<0xFF00?1:-1]; } x##__
02:16:05 <zzo38> Have you used these kind of things in any C codes?
02:19:08 <Lumpio-> How would you even use that
02:21:52 <zzo38> http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/csound5extending.html#AddmodAddSpace
02:22:49 <zzo38> Does that explain it to you?
02:24:26 <Lumpio-> good grief, was this written for the IOCCC?
02:24:33 <Lumpio-> "f-rate streaming pvoc fsig type"
02:24:40 <Lumpio-> I don't think that counts as English
02:25:29 <zzo38> Are you sure? Well, I don't think it was written for the IOCCC.
02:25:47 <Lumpio-> What happens when an array ends up with a -1 size anyways
02:25:55 <zzo38> You get a compiler error.
02:25:57 <Lumpio-> Is that just a hacky and unreadable way to causing a compiler error?
02:26:30 <zzo38> I wouldn't call it unreadable.
02:26:38 <Lumpio-> Also where would you use that macro
02:26:43 <Lumpio-> The "x;" at the start intrigues me
02:27:45 <zzo38> typedef struct { OPDS h; MYFLT*ao; MYFLT*ai; } MEMDEF(mem_avecrev);
02:27:57 <Lumpio-> oh it comes at the end of a typedef
02:29:04 <Lumpio-> I think I once made a piece of software somethign like this thing thing
02:30:25 <Lumpio-> And I never really bothered coming up with interesting blocks
02:30:40 <Lumpio-> Or modules or whatever you call them
02:31:15 <Lumpio-> I wonder if browsers are fast enough to do it in JavaScript these days
02:31:30 <Lumpio-> I still don't trust JS when it comes to raw math performance
02:32:22 <zzo38> Well, this is Csound; what software were you using?
02:34:32 <Lumpio-> I was making my own thing from scratch. This was years ago
02:35:16 <zzo38> What did the program do?
02:35:28 <shachaf> zzo38: How long have you had your nick?
02:35:35 <shachaf> Was it always 38, or a different number once?
02:35:56 <zzo38> shachaf: Always 38
02:36:05 <zzo38> I don't know how long.
02:37:41 <Lumpio-> I had basic waveform generators, ADSR, some filters, and MIDI input.
02:37:51 <Lumpio-> Plus a block that takes a chain and clones it for polyphony.
02:38:08 <Lumpio-> It'd be kind of fun to make something like this with a physical interface
02:38:22 <Lumpio-> Something that looks like an analog modular synthesizer but is really just a simulation.
02:38:28 <Lumpio-> But that's probably never going to happen
02:40:17 <oerjan> shachaf: just about ready to engage in some nepotism, i'd say
02:40:50 <shachaf> oerjan: Hm, I was leaning toward despotism.
02:40:59 <oerjan> those go well together
03:01:20 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Csound does such things and even more, and probably could even be made to connect to a physical interface.
03:01:39 <shachaf> what about a mental interface
03:02:31 <zzo38> It might be possible too, I don't know
03:03:46 <Sgeo_> Chrome seems to be seriously struggling with the new tab page
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03:33:41 <c00kiemon5ter> ohai o/ something blew up somewhere near and caused a power failure <.<
03:34:08 <HackEgo> c00kiemon5ter: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:34:31 <oerjan> `WeLcOmE c00kiemon5ter
03:34:36 <HackEgo> C00kIeMoN5TeR: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
03:35:35 <oerjan> although i bet elliott still hasn't made the link work
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07:12:11 <oklofok> lament is so positive and full of hope in the 2003 logs
07:13:08 <fizzie> Stuck in 2003, how horrible.
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07:13:36 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, lament is moving forward in time.
07:13:40 <shachaf> But unfortunately so are we.
07:13:46 <shachaf> We'll always be 9 years ahead. :-(
07:14:12 <oklofok> fizzie hasn't changed a bit
07:16:20 <oklofok> <fizzie> what with the topics on this channel, not a surprise (s?he|it) refused.
07:16:20 <fizzie> Maybe I'm stuck in 2003 too.
07:17:17 <oklofok> how old are you and how old is lament?
07:18:18 <fizzie> I wasn't this old then.
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07:20:57 <fizzie> I don't know about the age of lament(ation).
07:21:29 <fizzie> The lament of their women, as Conan says.
07:22:17 <zzo38> Should Proce have command to specify external input/output?
07:22:28 <zzo38> Otherwise, it doesn't do much.
07:23:25 <fizzie> Yay, sixty-eight people!
07:23:40 <fizzie> fungot: You count as people too!
07:23:41 <fungot> fizzie: before the renaissance, western mathematics was pretty shitty on the notation side.
07:24:03 <fizzie> fungot: That's a direct quote, you lazy.
07:24:04 <fungot> fizzie: it is used or something like that wouldn't be equally tricky if you want
07:24:16 <fizzie> That probably isn't. Though you never know.
07:25:59 <oklofok> <oklopol> and i made a 3D bf with the IP being a SPACESHIP (now that's REAL COOL, right?), then i made a lang called metafuck, where you can execute the memory with it's own nulled memory
07:26:12 <oklofok> am i just sarcastic from the beginning
07:26:49 <oklofok> it seems i've calmed down quite a bit in any case
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09:14:35 <shachaf> monqy: omg that takes ages :D
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09:17:04 <shachaf> monqy: or maybe its my function :o
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13:03:47 <HackEgo> ＡＳＩＥＫＩＥＲＫＡ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬ
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13:19:35 <fizzie> Also, this monitor developed a full-height vertical line of always-on blue pixels in the 354th column. It is visible also in the monitor startup logo splash and in different graphics modes.
13:20:23 <fizzie> I think it is a fault.
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13:23:44 <fizzie> It might be the 353th or the 355th column, to be honest.
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14:14:38 <Arc_Koen> I have a friend with an iMac who developed the same problem (though he did not tell me the number of the column). Later on the monitor developed a second column like that, except purple instead of blue.
14:18:01 <fizzie> No, it's just a monitor.
14:18:09 <fizzie> Some old Fujitsu-Siemens leftover.
14:22:03 <fizzie> (It's not *my* monitor. I'd be more dismayed if it were.)
14:28:20 <elliott> fizzie: help me with SSL thanks !
14:28:48 <elliott> tswett: is 107.5.152.253 you?
14:36:33 <elliott> tswett: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=///&curid=1636&diff=34935&oldid=33068 hides a link to a user page which is a no-go by the wiki policies
14:36:55 <tswett> In that case, no, that's not me.
14:37:08 <elliott> well I wanted to know so I could ask what you wanted done :P
14:37:17 <elliott> would be easy to make a [[Tanner Swett]] stub that linked to the user page, that would suffice
14:37:25 <tswett> I just changed it to "Tanner Swett ([[User:Ihope127]])".
14:37:42 <elliott> don't you mean 107.5.152.253 did :P
14:38:02 <elliott> I should really fix it so that links to the /// page actually work again
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14:55:57 <elliott> "The process of constructing instruction tables should be very fascinating. There need be no real danger of it ever becoming a drudge, for any processes that are quite mechanical may be turned over to the machine itself." -- Turing
14:57:03 <Taneb> "I'm hungry." -- Nathan "Taneb" van Doorn
15:02:59 <kmc> elliott: nice
15:03:53 <elliott> via http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/there-need-be-no-real-danger-of-it-ever.html via http://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=711, fwiw
15:03:58 <elliott> or are those vias the wrong way around
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15:46:15 <kmc> blind vias and buried vias
15:50:34 <Arc_Koen> if the last character in a /// program si \ what happens?
15:52:05 <elliott> "If the character is \, the character after it (if any) is printed and both characters are removed from the program."
16:01:16 <elliott> that description is less than clear admittedly (I wrote it)
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17:43:29 <hey> For programmer HELLO WORLD :)
17:43:32 -!- hey has changed nick to Guest89142.
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17:46:59 -!- Gregor has set topic: hey hey hey everyone for programmer HELLO WORLD! | Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
17:47:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: hey hey hey every one for programmer HELLO WORLD! | Logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
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18:46:39 <fizzie> Isn't that missing a hey.
18:46:43 <zzo38> tswett: Did you make Proce esolang? I think there should be the way to specify external input/output?
18:46:50 <fizzie> hey hey hey every one hey for programmer HELLO WORLD.
18:46:51 <zzo38> fizzie: No, it is missing a key.
18:47:08 <Gregor> fizzie: I opted to paraphrase.
18:47:44 <zzo38> And the log URL is missing a percentage sign.
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19:07:10 <olsner> there was a hey after HELLO WORLD! too
19:08:08 <olsner> hey hey, hello world hey ... has a nice ring to it somehow
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19:08:44 <AnotherTest> I can no longer visit the page "///" on the wiki for some reason
19:09:04 <elliott> it has been like this for months because I am lazy and awful
19:09:07 <elliott> you can go to "Slashes" instaed
19:09:22 <AnotherTest> but, the language list redirects you to ///
19:14:42 <AnotherTest> oh wait, never mind, it does redirect you to Slashes
19:18:14 <tswett> zzo38: I did make Proce, yeah, and there's no one obvious way to do I/O.
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19:19:46 <zzo38> tswett: To me would seem, should have some line indicating the outputs and inputs?
19:20:16 <zzo38> I might try to implement this, as a Csound plugin.
19:46:25 <zzo38> tswett: Do you think that may be reasonable way doing I/O?
19:46:34 <zzo38> Or, do you want a different way?
19:53:50 <zzo38> How do you program Mozilla to finish loading the HTML before attempting to load any CSS, script, images, etc?
19:54:43 <Bike> Finish loading or finish rendering?
19:57:55 <nortti> well for one you should probably upgrade to firefox or seamonkey but I think that is not what you mean
19:58:00 <Bike> because I"m pretty sure you need CSS and some scripts before it can be rendered properly
19:59:10 <zzo38> I mean the Mozilla engine (so that includes Firefox and so on)
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19:59:37 <nortti> or are you insane enough to tamper with mariner?
20:01:49 <zzo38> I think it could be rendered not too bad, if you don't use the CSS/scripts; it should display placeholders for images, and if for any reason it cannot finish rendering, it ought to still be required to finish loading first.
20:01:57 <zzo38> And then render as much as possible, before loading the rest.
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20:09:29 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
20:10:29 <FireFly> poor guys, their heads and arms are all chopped off
20:24:04 <fizzie> FireFly: There are also some disembodied hands.
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20:31:18 <zzo38> Can FM synthesis be done with acoustics rather than electronics?
20:32:38 <olsner> isn't that almost how humans speak?
20:33:15 <FreeFull> Human speech is really more of resonance and resonant filtering
20:33:20 <zzo38> But I mean using strings and pipes and so on, not using speech.
20:33:22 <Lumpio-> I guess you could, at least to some extent
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20:34:01 <FreeFull> FM works by taking an oscillation and using it to change the frequency of another oscillation
20:34:11 <FreeFull> Then there is PM which changes the phase instead
20:34:19 <FreeFull> For some reason synthesiser companies call PM FM
20:36:52 <zzo38> So there is, frequency modulation, phase modulation, but is there duty modulation?
20:37:21 <kmc> pulse-width modulation?
20:37:39 <zzo38> The "squarewave" command in my Csound plugin could probably duty modulation too since the duty is an x-rate parameter
20:38:06 <zzo38> kmc: I guess it is like that.
20:38:43 <zzo38> Still with this command, the frequency is also x-rate, so you could make both the frequency and duty to be modulated.
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20:46:30 <fizzie> "FM" as a general term certainly doesn't really require the modulating signal to be an LFO or any sort of oscillator; the pitch effects of human speech (which work by altering the vocal fold oscillation frequency) are arguably rather clear examples of FM. (The bit that generally carries all "content", i.e. the frequency responses of the resonant filters, perhaps not so much.)
20:46:54 <elliott> fizzie: of course the speech recognition researcher jumps to the voice
20:46:58 <elliott> it's all about speech recognition!!
20:47:21 <FreeFull> zzo38: Ever heard of the Commodore 64?
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20:55:39 <fizzie> elliott: It was someone else who brought up the voice topic.
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20:58:38 <HackEgo> yorberth_puente: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:00:19 <shachaf> Does anyone ever talk about deployment in here?
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21:00:47 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
21:01:12 <arcatan> 10 tips for deploying brainfuck in production
21:01:31 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ delquotee \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping
21:01:49 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\?: No such file or directory
21:01:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z) \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] || { echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; } \ cat "wisdom/$topic" \
21:02:01 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:02:13 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//'
21:02:18 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
21:02:42 <HackEgo> fizzie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:03:36 <fizzie> Oh! I thought it was like mediums and channeling and angel healing.
21:05:40 <ion> and angle grinding
21:08:41 <fizzie> An acute case of angels.
21:09:14 <fizzie> There was a book at the book store called Angels in My Hair. Plus two further books "from the author of Angels in My Hair".
21:09:50 <fizzie> "In this uplifting autobiography, a modern-day Irish mystic shares her vivid encounters and conversations with the angels and spirits she has known her entire life."
21:10:09 <fizzie> "For as long as she can remember, Lorna Byrne has seen angels. As a young child, she assumed everyone could see the otherworldly beings who always accompanied her. Yet in the eyes of adults, her abnormal behavior was a symptom of mental deficiency. Today, sick and troubled people from around the world are drawn to her for comfort and healing, and even theologians of different faiths seek her ...
21:10:15 <fizzie> ... guidance." ...yeah.
21:10:30 <fizzie> Just think! People dared to think she might have something wrong in the head department.
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21:26:33 <Arc_Koen> does this mean the other hand is under ireland?
21:28:52 <olsner> it could also mean mayonnaise
21:29:27 * oerjan gently fails at sweeping norwegian princess Märtha Louise under the rug
21:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> the pithy observation i was leading up to is that irish culture isn't really one of hardline rationalism
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> her wikipedia doesn't make her sound /that/ much crazier than prince charles
21:33:59 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: that's like "not /that/ much hotter than the sun" or "not /that/ much wetter than the Atlantic Ocean". Or, y'know, "not /that/ much less usable than Haskell"
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21:34:34 <soundnfury> yeah, well, you can't fire me. Trolls have an /awesome/ union
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21:35:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_M%C3%A4rtha_Louise_of_Norway#Spirituality_school_controversy anyway
21:35:10 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not a tory! I'm an anarcho-capitalist libertarian
21:36:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:36:45 -!- olsner has set topic: Use angels and your own power to create miracles in the logs: http://5z8.info/turkeyporn_o4u1vn_molotovcocktail#gobblegobble.
21:37:38 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, not helping with the 'no, not that kind of esoteric' problem
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21:37:57 <olsner> I'm not exactly trying to :)
21:37:59 <soundnfury> meh, we never talk about esolangs /anyway/, what does it matter?
21:38:20 <oerjan> we do too! several times a week, sometimes
21:38:21 <soundnfury> (well, except when we talk about Haskell) <-- seriously guys, it says in my contract that I have to do this.
21:39:01 <oerjan> soundnfury: the contract also says what eventually happens to your soul, i take
21:39:12 <oerjan> and is signed in blood
21:39:13 <Taneb> I liked today's Critical Miss
21:40:20 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: I just wanted to make sure everyone could remember who I was. I'll stop now
21:40:31 <oerjan> soundnfury isn't identical to fax? just checking.
21:40:32 <soundnfury> (unless there are any /really good/ opportunities, then I might be unable to resist)
21:41:12 <soundnfury> I am most assuredly /not/ a low-resolution image transmission system
21:41:24 <fizzie> fungot: Quick, talk about esolangs!
21:41:45 <fungot> Hello there. Hello there.
21:41:54 <Taneb> fungot, are you okay?
21:41:55 <fungot> Taneb: i took up emacs so i can do
21:41:57 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have something AGAINST esolangs there?
21:41:57 <fungot> fizzie: look to the past....
21:42:06 <soundnfury> Is fungot's "echo" supposed to... well... echo like that?
21:42:06 <fungot> soundnfury: manipulating xml as sexps?) or you can
21:42:13 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's the return of the last
21:42:21 <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings?
21:42:21 <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:42:28 <oerjan> soundnfury: of course, it wouldn't me much of an echo if it only said things _once_, would it?
21:42:47 <fungot> a duck's quack a duck's quack
21:42:55 <soundnfury> well, that disproves /that/ urban legend!
21:43:10 <soundnfury> sorry, I'm very bored and not a little drowsy
21:43:21 <soundnfury> this may lead to minor outbursts of insanity
21:44:00 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think of APL?
21:44:01 <fungot> FireFly: it was the joke. shriram krishnamurthi was saying that the headings should always use the -sign for arrays.... not insert /way/ better alternative.
21:44:28 <fungot> soundnfury: upper management latched on to anything with a suxor name...) construct where parts of app pass procedures to compose: ( ( (1 2 3)
21:45:15 <FireFly> fungot always speak the truth
21:45:15 <fungot> FireFly: you can request fnord at a distance 5000 feet.) mention what you managed to install fnord
21:45:42 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:45:43 <fungot> oerjan: i have access to your screen sessions, most of the time
21:45:45 <HackEgo> 863) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
21:46:10 <FireFly> oerjan: I'd be afraid if I were you
21:46:21 <FireFly> I wouldn't want fungot messing with my screen sessions
21:46:21 <fungot> FireFly: iso media, apple quicktime movie
21:46:22 <oerjan> FireFly: that would be worrisome if i used screen
21:46:45 <soundnfury> heck, the mere fact of using screen would be worrisome
21:47:08 <soundnfury> FireFly: fungot has actually been known to lie, but usually he corrupts the hard disks of anyone who has a log of the event
21:47:08 <fungot> soundnfury: can you see pretty easily what's going on?
21:47:32 <oerjan> soundnfury: DON'T ANSWER THAT
21:47:45 <olsner> ircing #esoteric through screen would give fungot access to your screen session
21:47:45 <fungot> olsner: wait a sec :) just store the symbols and labels)?
21:47:54 <GreyKnight> fungot: *I* can pretty easily see what's going on.
21:47:54 <fungot> GreyKnight: it's definitively no toy environment'. it's great
21:48:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:48:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: methinkx it was the fastest back then; the guile people are slow to calculate them lazily. that is
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21:49:10 <fungot> FireFly: or is there another way
21:49:47 <GreyKnight> fungot: yeah the guile people *are* slow, aren't they?
21:49:48 <fungot> GreyKnight: if i want to mail a poor teacher a copy?). having to pack values into a monad moot.
21:50:02 <soundnfury> must... resist... temptation... to mock monads...
21:50:27 <arcatan> i mock monads so they're easier to test
21:50:45 <kmc> oh this again
21:51:18 <GreyKnight> fungot: what would happen if I were to pack soundnfury into a monad, do you suppose?
21:51:18 <fungot> GreyKnight: i think it's gotta run at fnord
21:51:34 <FireFly> fungot: yes, obviously it would
21:51:35 <fungot> FireFly: and we want to switch back and forth, but if i was you, i'd leave him. everyone has hated him since. the end.
21:54:21 <GreyKnight> fungot: let's talk about Feather. What would be a good name for a Feather interpreter?
21:54:21 <fungot> GreyKnight: let me rephrase! " captive market" anybody?
21:54:37 <fungot> GreyKnight: care to describe it.
21:55:05 <soundnfury> fungot: what should be the foundation of my next esolang? I'm thinking something involving ed
21:55:06 <fungot> soundnfury: if my macro does not. cmuscheme.el does.
21:55:09 <GreyKnight> well, first I'll implement it in some other language, then retroactively host it in Feather all the way down
21:55:53 <soundnfury> fungot: soo... reimplement ed in lisp, or reimplement emacs on top of ed?
21:55:54 <fungot> soundnfury: we disagree about where it was revealed that the health service had a hospital running for several months and come back
21:55:54 <FireFly> fungot wants GreyKnight to describe the inner workings of this Feather interpreter? oh god.
21:55:54 <fungot> FireFly: if you used a proper xml production library that can be used as a teaching language.
21:56:13 <GreyKnight> I'm surprised how relevant he manages to be
21:56:26 <oerjan> GreyKnight: IT'S A TRAP
21:56:50 <soundnfury> yeah, but I'm not quite sure what the relevance of the NHS is to my question about ed-macs
21:57:26 <FireFly> fungot: what's your favourite programming paradigm?
21:57:26 <fungot> FireFly: so it's two proof, after which you can ask
21:57:56 <GreyKnight> clearly you should sell ed-macs systems to the hospitals
21:58:47 <soundnfury> GreyKnight: nah, they already have MUMPS
22:06:09 <GreyKnight> ais523: I am actually going to call it captive-market now, just FYI
22:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, you aren't trying to write a feather interpreter are you
22:08:11 <GreyKnight> I can neither confirm nor deny this statement
22:09:03 <Taneb> Would the TardisT monad transformer be useful for writing a feather interpreter
22:10:31 <Taneb> Ask me again in the past
22:13:17 <Taneb> On a different note, I'm listening to songs I don't really like in a language I don't speak a word of
22:13:22 <elliott> do I really see soundnfury saying bullshit about haskell in the logs yet another day
22:13:28 <elliott> can't you just go away forever or something
22:13:52 <Taneb> FireFly, TO PERFECT MY ROLEPLAY
22:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, oh no, don't you see? he's saying bullshit about haskell ironically
22:14:46 <elliott> i disagree and offer instead the proposition that it just makes him even more pointless
22:15:12 <Taneb> He's as pointless as they get
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22:16:43 <Taneb> FireFly, really, it's just noise
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22:22:29 <elliott> this is embarrassing for everyone
22:23:00 <shachaf> i'm not embarrassed!!!!!!!!!
22:23:43 <monqy> im smiling. hello soundnfury!!!welcome to esoteric
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22:24:16 <soundnfury> I think I annoyed elliott by making a couple of haskell jibes
22:24:24 <soundnfury> but I'm sure he'll get over it eventually
22:24:24 <monqy> pfff that'd annoy anyone
22:24:27 <oerjan> <Taneb> FireFly, TO PERFECT MY ROLEPLAY <-- is this quenya, sindarin, klingon or something else?
22:24:36 <monqy> don't worry about it : )
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22:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> yes soundnfury, elliott was annoyed to a positive fervour by the sick burns you landed on haskell
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22:25:58 <elliott> soundnfury: well it's more that you literally say nothing of value and have apparently created your "#esoteric persona" entirely around saying dumb things about haskell that nobody even cares about (because who cares about the opinions of someone who clearly knows nothing about haskell??)
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22:26:25 <elliott> so you live up to your name i.e. told by an idiot, signifying nothing
22:26:28 <monqy> soundnfury: elliott's right!!! i know you only as "the haskellphobe"
22:26:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:26:33 <soundnfury> elliott: I do occasionally talk about other things
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22:26:53 <elliott> well maybe it would be good if you didn't drown that out with that dumbness
22:27:10 <soundnfury> well maybe if there were more esolang talk in here there'd be something for me to talk about that wasn't dumb
22:28:04 <soundnfury> case in point: what does some irish lass who thinks she talks to angels have to do with esolangs?
22:28:12 <elliott> well so clearly you don't like the contents of this channel
22:28:17 <elliott> so instead of feebly "trolling" the people inside
22:28:29 <soundnfury> but I /do/ like the thing this channel is ostensibly about
22:28:40 <monqy> hint: thats not what the channel is actually about. shoo
22:28:42 <elliott> so you are going to troll it in the hopes it becomes off-topic???
22:29:01 <elliott> i don't see how this can possibly have a productive end... you're freely admitting you are trying to bother us because you don't like what we talk about
22:29:19 <fungot> GreyKnight: ' ( 1 2) ( scheme-report-environment 5)
22:29:37 <soundnfury> elliott: I'm not actually trying to bother you
22:30:05 <soundnfury> I just have difficulty resisting the opportunities to direct childish humour at Haskell when I happen to be bored
22:30:33 <soundnfury> and since, on days when I'm /not/ bored, there's not usually any conversation in this channel to join in with productively,
22:30:40 <elliott> i think you will find everyone in the channel either doesn't care about it or is bothered by it
22:30:44 <soundnfury> you only tend to hear from me when I'm bored
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22:31:02 <elliott> so perhaps restrain yourself?? or just don't join when you're bored
22:31:10 <oerjan> darn i was just going to xkcd him
22:31:35 <soundnfury> I usually do restrain myself, but you don't see that, you only see the cases when my restraint fails
22:31:49 <soundnfury> so, try not to hate me /too/ much for not being perfect at restraint
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22:33:21 <oerjan> technically soundnfury had been here for hours before i noticed he was, of course that _was_ when he mentioned haskell.
22:34:12 <elliott> well if you have a person the vast majority of who's (total pro grammar) contribution to the channel is to fail to restrain themselves and say dumb things then that's pretty suboptimal imo
22:34:50 <soundnfury> programmers are in favour of syntax. Erm, I mean... they're pro grammar.
22:35:07 <kmc> haskell... more like FUCK SKULL am i right
22:35:14 <kmc> (no, i am not)
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22:36:07 <soundnfury> kmc: good morrow, hail and well met. Prithee tell me how thou farest this day.
22:36:13 <monqy> haskell more like who would ever use a language with no I/O and you can't have variables???????am i right
22:36:18 <oerjan> it's ok you are allowed to dis haskell here. but you have to do it in the type system.
22:37:11 <elliott> monqy: i hear they represent strings as multiply-boxed linked lists!!! ha ha ha
22:37:12 <oerjan> and only because the kind system isn't powerful enough yet.
22:37:37 <soundnfury> be kind to your type system. or is that a category error?
22:38:51 <soundnfury> On an unrelated topic, can someone give me architectural advice on a project I'm working on?
22:39:17 <soundnfury> it's a programmable text editor (-ish thing) in Python...
22:39:22 <oerjan> in any case, http://hauptwerk.blogspot.no/2012/11/coming-soon-in-ghc-head-poly-kinded.html is _clearly_ relevant
22:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> sort it out yourself, or ask people you haven't systematically annoyed
22:40:12 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: but annoyed people can give good advice, under a set of implausible assumptions I won't list here
22:43:46 <monqy> am i annoyed enough to give good advice ?
22:43:48 <elliott> good to know the channel is getting back on topic
22:44:24 <monqy> python is esoteric if you think about it hard enough
22:44:34 <monqy> eschew's the common wisdom to use lexical scoping
22:44:42 <monqy> now that's innovation
22:44:50 <kmc> it's almost lexical scoping
22:45:18 <elliott> monqy: i think python 3 gets it right?
22:45:24 <elliott> "Another cool thing is that now even type classes can have Typeable instances; since we allow abstraction over Constraint, datatypes may have parameters involving the Constraint kind, so to support Typeable for those datatypes, we need to support Typeable for type classes in general (as pointed out by Gábor Lehel)."
22:45:39 <elliott> is there an instance Typeable Typeable.....
22:45:57 <monqy> a future in which the future is syb
22:47:02 <shachaf> elliott: Want to write alongside for traversals?
22:47:35 <olsner> are these lens shenanigans related to syb?
22:47:53 <soundnfury> I should add that the first part of it I'm implementing is actually an emulated `ed' session
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22:48:59 <kmc> soundnfury: perhaps bonghits will fix your emulated `ed' session
22:49:25 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: oh. I was assuming you'd continue to maintain a pretense of civility
22:49:30 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: if you write "x = 3" in a nested function, it puts a binding in your most local frame, not in whatever frame (if any) originally defined 'x'
22:49:33 <kmc> big whoop imo
22:49:45 <kmc> it's kind of like scheme's 'define' vs 'set!'
22:49:49 <shachaf> In Python 3 you can say nonlocal x
22:50:00 <olsner> nonlocal? what a nice keyword
22:50:13 <kmc> this arises because python doesn't have a distinction between declaring a variable and assigning to one
22:50:13 <zzo38> Well, local definitions like that may sometimes be useful in macros, although Haskell has bad support for macros anyways.
22:50:14 <soundnfury> olsner: well, they couldn't call it "global", that was taken
22:50:16 <kmc> which even scheme does kinda
22:50:19 <olsner> now, does that mean "sane x" or just "different x"
22:50:29 <Phantom_Hoover> you are simply digging your own fetid little hole ever-deeper
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22:50:40 <zzo38> I have used macros like that in C, though.
22:50:52 <kmc> the other thing about python is that 'for' loops and friends don't create new scopes; they mutate the counter variable in the function's scope
22:50:57 <kmc> however many languages work this way
22:51:01 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: funny, it doesn't look that way to me
22:51:27 <kmc> there is some additional weirdness with generator expressions tho
22:51:33 <olsner> I love how choosing the wrong name for the iteration variable in a for loop causes bugs after the for loop
22:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, your lack of perspective is one of your major flaws
22:51:47 <soundnfury> and I haven't even /mentioned/ a certain language even though several other people have
22:51:49 <kmc> see #3 here: http://web.archive.org/web/20101009122154/http://web.mit.edu/rwbarton/www/python.html
22:52:02 <shachaf> kmc: I heard you were going to get that back up on the real Internet.
22:52:05 <soundnfury> not that I expected you to indicate any awareness of my restraint when present
22:52:27 <elliott> ok so one of you has to go otherwise this dumb argument will continue on to infinity
22:52:53 <soundnfury> I've been /trying/ to let go, but Phantom_Hoover doesn't seem to like that idea
22:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> it's cute how you think you can just act obnoxiously and expect everyone to 'let go'
22:56:10 <soundnfury> so, how about that other topic of conversation that isn't a pointless argument between me and Phantom_Hoover, eh? <-- if someone can provide one, I'd be grateful
22:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> no we'd be perfectly content for you to simply shut up
22:56:43 <kmc> or get kicked
22:56:51 <elliott> i vote both soundnfury and Phantom_Hoover shut up
23:01:12 <ion> http://pandyland.net/random/?comicid=722779190
23:01:19 <shachaf> elliott: Remember that one time I said nonsense in #haskell?
23:01:22 <zzo38> I read somewhere, making up cards of Magic: the Gathering only involving the name of itself and the text of the comprehensive rules. One card is a enchantment called "Nirvana" with text: Goblins cannot reach Nirvana.
23:02:08 <zzo38> I interpret it to mean that, if this card ever becomes a creature, and gains flying, then the reach ability does not permit other creatures to block it if those creatures have the "Goblin" creature type.
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23:03:46 <kmc> zzo38: nice
23:03:54 <kmc> any other good examples?
23:03:58 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
23:04:18 <ion> The closest thing to “<shachaf> nonsense” i could find was “<shachaf> What nonsense?” on 2012-11-20.
23:05:00 <zzo38> kmc: I don't have other examples, sorry.
23:10:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:12:59 <kmc> the enchantment itself has to become a creature?
23:13:23 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I think it would have to become a creature with flying before its text would have any effect on the game.
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23:18:24 <Gregor> Quoth Wikipedia: In 1864, Congress authorized a third series of fractional currency notes. The five-cent note was to bear a depiction of "Clark", but Congress was appalled when the issue came out not with a portrait of William Clark, the explorer, but Spencer M. Clark, head of the Currency Bureau. According to numismatic historian Walter Breen, Congress's "immediate infuriated response was to pass a law retiring the five-cent denomination, and another to forbid p
23:18:24 <Gregor> ortrayal of any living person on federal coins or currency."
23:18:32 <Gregor> That guy is the greatest troll in history X-D
23:20:26 <olsner> I'll give that a chuckle and an imaginary slow clap and/or applause
23:25:57 <kmc> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/04/one-in-four-americans-has-an-opinion-about-an-imaginary-debt-plan/
23:31:39 <Bike> PPP is pretty awesome. I like their twitter.
23:32:03 <kmc> oh i didn't even notice it was them
23:32:04 <fizzie> Point-to-Point Protocol?
23:32:59 <Bike> Public Policy Polling, I think.
23:33:06 <kmc> haha, they re-tweeted someone asking "Could @ppppolls be any more blatantly biased?"
23:33:21 <Bike> They were retweeting people ranting at them all throughout November.
23:33:26 <kmc> didn't even respond
23:33:29 <kmc> i like their style
23:33:32 <Bike> All the ones about how Romney was totally going to win, etc
23:33:55 <Bike> "(I don't remember getting a single phone call in response to that video, although the crazy voice mails did blend together at some point)"
23:34:05 <kmc> "49% of GOP voters nationally say they think that ACORN stole the election for President Obama. We found that 52% of Republicans thought that ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama, so this is a modest decline, but perhaps smaller than might have been expected given that ACORN doesn't exist anymore."
23:34:41 <kmc> they also point out that "One reason that such a high percentage of Republicans are holding what could be seen as extreme views is that their numbers are declining"
23:35:00 <kmc> everybody remotely sane is being driven out of the party
23:35:04 <Fiora> did they also record the percentage of people identifying as republican in that poll?
23:35:09 <Fiora> I remember it went down a lot lately
23:35:10 <kmc> it's kind of wonderful as well
23:35:20 <Fiora> it's a fun implosion to watch
23:35:25 <kmc> don't know about that poll specifically but they say it went down from 37% to 32% at the election
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23:51:45 <shachaf> I hird elliott likes vault.
23:52:08 <ion> Death Metal Fat Cat Drum Cover http://youtu.be/yWcak9tZupc
23:52:19 <shachaf> yo elliott, i hird you like vault, so i put a vault in your vault
23:53:14 <ion> I see what you did there.
23:55:54 <shachaf> elliott: Remember back when I did that "u mad" thing?
23:56:04 <shachaf> I remember that #esoteric was window 19 in irssi at the time.
23:57:47 <olsner> what is the significance of the number itself and the fact that you remember it?
00:00:23 <olsner> shachaf: ok, thanks for sharing
00:00:53 <shachaf> Remember back when I had #concatenative as window 10?
00:03:44 <oerjan> remember back before we got amnesia?
00:09:20 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/0textfile/miscellaneous/PMUIDS
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00:24:38 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't have Gopher.
00:24:41 <shachaf> Can I have an HTTP version?
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00:26:07 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/PMUIDS
00:26:31 <zzo38> The gopher version is considered official, however.
00:28:28 <zzo38> But, both are the same file, so it doesn't matter.
00:29:11 <olsner> oh, it's about pokemon
00:32:15 <olsner> sweet, class 1 snow warning in my area (class 1 is lowest class and basically means "potentially annoying weather", but still)
00:32:53 <pikhq_> zzo38: Would I be correct in assuming the Nintendo pmuids use National Pokedex numbers?
00:33:17 <pikhq_> i.e. Bulbasaur is pmuid:1
00:34:27 <pikhq_> (and Mew of course pmuids:151)
00:35:02 <pikhq_> You may want to specify that. :)
00:39:21 <oerjan> <- no snow at all but annoyingly cold. for now.
00:40:02 <pikhq_> <- chance of snow this weekend.
00:40:18 <Gregor> <- Saaaan Fraaaanciscoooooooo
00:40:25 <pikhq_> Maybe my girlfriend will actually see a snowy Colorado. That'd be something.
00:40:38 <pikhq_> Gregor: Well, if it snows there the apocalypse is real.
00:41:22 <oerjan> california gets apocalypses all the time, doesn't it?
00:41:59 <olsner> apocalypses really only happen once though
00:43:35 <kmc> SF got an inch of snow in Feb 2011
00:43:39 <kmc> previous occasion was in 1976
00:43:55 <kmc> i would believe that both 1976 and 2011 were apocalypse years
00:44:25 <Fiora> Wow, the last time the LA area got snow was 1962
00:53:36 <oerjan> Fiora: cuban missile crisis, obviously.
01:04:50 <fizzie> We got about 7 inches of snow last weekend.
01:08:21 <fizzie> They did predict up to 16, so I guess it wasn't that bad.
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02:17:25 <kmc> wow a friend just pointed out to me that clang can do things like this: https://gist.github.com/4211534
02:19:00 <Bike> what's movabsq do?
02:20:52 <Fiora> load 64-bit immediate value
02:21:23 <Fiora> btq... bit test @_@
02:22:17 <oerjan> > showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 4294977024 ""
02:22:18 <lambdabot> "100000000000000000010011000000000"
02:22:27 <Fiora> \r is 0x0D, \n is 0x0A, \t is 0x09, ' ' is 0x20
02:22:51 <oerjan> > length $ showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit 4294977024 ""
02:23:26 <Fiora> it copies a bit from the given register to the carry flag....?
02:24:03 <Fiora> It's doing a 64-way table lookup using a single register.
02:24:07 <Fiora> 64-bit boolean table lookup
02:24:24 <Fiora> I've never seen it done that way
02:24:38 <Fiora> I've done it before in code with something like...
02:25:06 <Fiora> #define 4BIT_ARRAY_LOOKUP(x) ((constant>>(4*(x)))&0xF)
02:25:22 <Fiora> but bit test saves an instruction if you only need one bit I think...
02:25:31 <Fiora> since you'd have to do shift + and
02:25:44 <Fiora> but gosh I've never seen a compiler automate that, wow
02:28:44 <kmc> i am impressed
02:29:08 <kmc> it must be pretty good for lexers in general
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02:32:15 <Fiora> I'm guessing it's a similar optimization to the one where it combines if( i == 15 || i == 16 || i == 17 ) into if( i >= 15 && i <= 17 )
02:32:22 <Fiora> I think gcc does that one
02:34:10 <Bike> this seems rather more involved, to my ignorant eyes
02:34:39 <Fiora> I think it's just combining N checks, realizing they fall in a 64-bit range, and generating a bit array I think...?
02:34:45 <Fiora> I mean the asm is weird but
02:36:06 <kmc> i'm not sure exactly how the optimization pass is implemented
02:36:10 <kmc> would be interested to find out
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03:59:01 <kmc> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/320 example 7 here is similar
04:00:25 <Fiora> Intel's compiler does some really neat things
04:00:30 <Fiora> One thing I saw it do once was something like this
04:00:52 <Fiora> there was some code where two pointers could alias, and if they actually did, the compiler would have to do something a lot worse
04:00:58 <Fiora> so it made a branch based on whether or not the pointers aliased
04:01:03 <Fiora> and compiled two copies of the code
04:02:19 <Fiora> ooh. I like the thing clang does in example 5, I've never seen gcc do that sort of thing
04:03:18 <Bike> so clang is better at compiling gcc than gcc is, then :P
04:03:50 <Bike> guess that coincidentally answers the question of whether gcc deals with ranges, though
04:04:24 <Fiora> Example 4!! oh god I actually remember that thing from the optimization manual
04:04:46 <Fiora> Intel optimized their instruction decoder in some weird way that makes handling length-changing prefixes insanely slow (like, 6 cycles per instruction slow)
04:06:03 <Fiora> wow, intel did a crazy good job on example 3.
04:06:46 <kmc> yeah iirc intel's chips have a few decoder units, and only one of them can handle the full x86 syntax with all its stupid bells and whistles
04:07:09 <Fiora> I think it's worse than that, it holds up the entire pipeline for something like 6 cycles per instruction
04:07:20 <Fiora> I think this is a new thing though
04:07:27 <Fiora> I think the old rule was "3 simple instructions, 1 complex instruction" per cycle
04:07:46 <Fiora> My guess is they have some kind of predecoder that guesses the lengths of instructions and if it's wrong they have to flush the whole thing and start over
04:08:26 <Fiora> and example 1. I wonder what the conditions for able-to-statically-evaluate-loops is for each compiler... and I just read that article backwards <_<;
04:09:54 <Fiora> http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2012-03/msg01932.html oooh here's the patch for gcc to fix that 16-bit immediate issue.
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04:13:37 <kmc> http://blog.regehr.org/archives/324 there are some followups here
04:13:39 <kmc> another gcc patch
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04:15:13 * Fiora throws example 4 at bike because division by multiplication taking advantage of limited input range
04:15:36 <Bike> mruh, i'm totally out of my depth here, you know
04:15:46 <Fiora> but you were just talking about that the other day right :<
04:15:56 <Bike> yeah but i'm still shit at it
04:16:44 <Fiora> you are really smart okay >_<
04:18:54 <kmc> where is shachaf
04:25:36 <SingingBoyo> kmc: idk, I think he was on #haskell earlier though
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04:26:04 <Sgeo|web> Did coppro use the opportunity to beat me?
04:26:33 <Sgeo|web> In case not: elliott monqy Fiora
04:32:43 <kmc> https://gist.github.com/4211534
04:33:35 <oerjan> i'm sorry you cannot be at palo alto, that's a mythical place from legends
04:33:51 <kmc> it's a big tree
04:33:56 <kmc> are you in the tree shachaf
04:34:41 <shachaf> I've never actually seen the tree, though I think it's relatively close to where I live?
04:35:06 <oerjan> you aren't confusing it with yggdrasil?
04:35:22 <Fiora> yggdrasil? watch out for the FOEs
04:37:27 <shachaf> Oh, it's using the char as a bit index into a 64-bit integer?
04:38:49 <oerjan> "Efforts to restore the tree's health by the Southern Pacific Railroad, the City of Palo Alto and local citizens included progressive pruning off of the dying treetop, addition of soil and mulch at the tree’s base, removal of dead limbs, pesticide spraying and installation of a pipe up its trunk to bring water to the top of the tree.[6] Although the tree stands today at only 68% of its former stature, it enjoys greater health than nearly a century a
04:41:03 * shachaf wonders how general whatever it is that does that optimization is.
04:41:19 <Fiora> it'd be cool to see the code for it
04:42:49 <kmc> there is some FUD about how Supertrain will murder El Palo Alto
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04:43:30 <kmc> shachaf: i tried it on various subsets of ASCII 0..128 and it seemed to use the bitmask
04:43:56 <shachaf> Well, yes, I assume it's not *just* for the characters " \r\n\t"
04:44:17 <kmc> but i think it won't branch to use two different bitmasks, one for 0..63 and one for 64..128
04:44:29 <kmc> for a randomly selected subset of 0..255 it used a function pointer lookup table
04:44:33 <kmc> that's 2 kB!
04:44:49 <kmc> i would have thought a table of single bytes is better
04:44:55 <Fiora> a function pointer lookup table, wow
04:45:00 <kmc> since you are just going to load that byte to %rax and then ret, anyway
04:45:02 <Fiora> that sounds a little bit overkill
04:45:34 <kmc> i hope that ICC loads the entire table into a YMM register :D
04:46:15 <Fiora> I don't think there's a simd bit test though...
04:46:30 <Fiora> so you'd probably have to set a bit and shuffle it into place?
04:46:56 <Fiora> pslldq/psrldq are byte shifts only
04:48:31 <shachaf> kmc: Given that you can't even get a CPU with AVX2 these days...
04:49:27 <Fiora> could use AVX with float instructions, like doing a vpand and then a vcomiss or something...
04:50:17 <shachaf> Hmm, last time I looked at the AVX1 instructions they were very limited for what I wanted to do.
04:50:33 <Fiora> yeah, it's really hard to do anything useful integer-wise with them since it's float-only >_<
04:50:51 <Fiora> I've played some with AVX2 but it's not very satisfying because it's not like the emulator can tell me how fast it's going to run
04:51:20 <Bike> obviously we need bit test functions for floats
04:53:57 <shachaf> What's with all the people with nicks that start with an uppercase letter?
04:54:25 <shachaf> I thought that was illegal.
04:54:50 <Bike> You're illegal.
04:55:04 <Fiora> um.... it's... it's like a name, so...
04:56:14 <Sgeo|web> Reading about some tools on BackTrack Linux
04:56:24 <Sgeo|web> Would anyone ever actually fall for this http://www.question-defense.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2-22-2010-11-11-15-PM.png
04:56:39 <Bike> are you serious? of course!
04:56:55 <elliott> i would fall for that were i not paying attention
05:05:45 <Sgeo|web> Going by http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1114379-kubuntu-1210-review/ perhaps not
05:09:33 <Sgeo|web> Is it unreasonable for me to want to use XenClient?
05:09:47 <Sgeo|web> And thus run multiple OSes at the same time?
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05:13:14 <kmc> Sgeo|web: of course
05:16:32 <shachaf> This is the code responsible: https://github.com/llvm-mirror/llvm/blob/master/lib/CodeGen/SelectionDAG/SelectionDAGBuilder.cpp#L2349
05:18:11 <Fiora> geez, some arches don't even have shl?
05:18:48 <Fiora> so it does some tests to see if it's worthwhile...
05:19:42 <Fiora> that is extremely cool
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05:32:22 <kmc> hm i wonder which ones don't have it
05:32:29 <kmc> shachaf: thanks for finding that code btw
05:32:41 <Fiora> hmm. 8086 only had shl and shr by 1 I think
05:32:55 <Fiora> Yeah, thanks, that was really cool to look at evenif I'm clueless about llvm internals
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05:40:14 <shachaf> Unfortunately GHC doesn't generate code that LLVM recognizes for this trick.
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06:36:15 <fizzie> I'm reasonably sure x86 had N-shifts from the get-go.
06:36:49 <fizzie> "To reduce the maximum execution time, the 80386 does not allow shift counts greater than 31. If a shift count greater than 31 is attempted, only the bottom five bits of the shift count are used. (The 8086 uses all eight bits of the shift count.)" sort of suggests so too.
06:39:19 <fizzie> Z80 (and maybe 8080?) can only shift by one, though.
06:39:59 <oerjan> 6502 only had shift by one iirc
06:40:47 <Bike> so the real question is, is there an llvm backend for the NES.
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07:02:31 <Sgeo|web> I should watch some Twilight Zone episodes someday
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07:02:43 <Sgeo|web> Are all of the episodes considered classics, or just the ones I've heard of?
07:12:12 <quintopia> monsters/maple street, it's a good life, handful of others
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07:14:53 <pikhq_> Sgeo|web: A significant number of them are classics.
07:15:06 <pikhq_> shachaf: Then you have been living under a damned rock.
07:15:19 <Sgeo|web> Should I worry about spoilers?
07:15:30 <shachaf> I've heard of the Twilight Zone, just not any specific episodes.
07:15:34 <pikhq_> You have probably already experienced the spoilers.
07:15:41 <Sgeo|web> (Already spoiled It's a Good Life and Monsters/Maple Street, and know of that one with the glasses)
07:15:46 <pikhq_> shachaf: Welp, you've got 5 seasons to binge.
07:19:46 <shachaf> kmc: Is mosh vulnerable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closely_related_key attacks?
07:24:10 <zzo38> If you know anyone writing pokemon battle simulators and other pokemon related computer programming, or who makes up the new pokemons, you can notify them about PMUIDS.
07:24:34 <shachaf> Hmm, I know one person on IRC.
07:24:42 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know about PMUIDS?
07:24:48 <shachaf> zzo38: gopher://zzo38computer.org:70/0textfile/miscellaneous/PMUIDS
07:25:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I wrote it. But, I mean other people who use it; currently I do not use it (although in future I may use it)
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07:28:07 <zzo38> If there is anything else wrong/unclear, you can notify me about that; I already made clearer about the official numbers
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07:30:26 <shachaf> zzo38: It's possible that PMUIDS would be more popular if it preferred HTTP to Gopher.
07:31:16 <zzo38> Well, the same file can be accessed by HTTP and it is the same file either way so it doesn't matter.
07:32:24 <zzo38> The reason it isn't more popular is because I wrote it today.
07:42:57 <zzo38> And now for something different (and unrelated):
07:43:31 <zzo38> A puzzle game I am designing: It is like a cross between Hero Hearts and Magic: the Gathering, with a little bit of chess and Dungeons&Dragons.
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08:27:55 <GreyKnight> The topic will probably not help confused newcomers :-P
08:28:31 <Sgeo|web> elliott: Fiora monqy: coppro failed again
08:28:54 <Sgeo|web> Unless the time I came in here was after the second update, which I was unaware of
08:32:46 <GreyKnight> I was reading the ideas list, I really like the idea of the language that only has one big program
08:33:23 <GreyKnight> Trying to figure out a way to enforce it at the minute
08:35:04 <Sgeo|web> One big program as in, only one program of a certain complexity, or, only one program and that program is large/
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08:35:49 <GreyKnight> If you want to write code in this language it has to go into the same program that everybody else is writing
08:35:50 <Sgeo|web> Some obvious but boring ways to do it come to mind
08:36:36 <GreyKnight> The ideas page suggests having a public wiki as "the editor" for the source code
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08:38:58 <GreyKnight> Can't think of a non-boring solution :-/
08:41:43 <Deewiant> Distributed Befunge: a shared Funge-Space into which all programs are written, every new writer gets a random storage offset and starting position; if collisions happen, problems ensue.
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08:44:37 <greyooze> Oh yeah, the shared space idea has merit, I like that
08:47:01 <zzo38> How well do you think it would work to output the number of activated loads or total pressure of a noit o' mnain worb as a audio signal?
08:48:17 <greyooze> The interpreter for communistlang keeps track of the last code it was asked to run. The next code you supply it must be a purely additive diff from the previous
08:48:43 <greyooze> zzo38, you could assign different tones to the loads
08:49:47 <zzo38> greyooze: Yes you could do that too, I suppose, how well would that work?
08:50:25 <greyooze> I don't know, but it sounds like it would be fun to find out!
08:50:57 <greyooze> Perhaps total pressure controls the volume?
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08:52:36 <GreyKnight> (A puddle of ooze springs up and assembles itself into a knight!)
08:53:55 <fizzie> There was a distributed something conversation here a few years back. (But that's all I remember of it.)
08:54:43 <GreyKnight> "Somebody used the word 'distributed' once. That's all I know." :o)
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08:58:10 <GreyKnight> let's see, it needs to be easy to compose new code on top of the old
08:58:42 <GreyKnight> And I guess need to handle command-line args easily since doubtless lots of them will be used
08:59:04 <GreyKnight> "Swiss-army-knife" programs tend to end up that way!
08:59:20 <GreyKnight> Basically this is busybox writ large :-D
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09:23:26 <elliott> fizzie: what was that message splitting script you used
09:23:47 <shachaf> /script load splitlong.pl ?
09:23:50 <monqy> the one that isn't autowrap. i know this because i'm using autowrap
09:27:23 <fizzie> Really, it's pretty much equivalent to autowrap, except it does the splitting on its own (instead of Text::Wrap) and has /set'able settings for the maximum length and what prefix/suffix to use for continuation lines, as well as the (sometimes misworking) automagical maximum length calculation.
09:30:09 <shachaf> monqy: /join #haskell-lens
09:30:32 <monqy> does that really work ?
09:31:02 <monqy> (i decided to use autowrap because i didn't want to /set maximum length and i didn't want the misworking)
09:31:13 <monqy> the does that really work ? was directed at lens
09:31:41 <elliott> fizzie: Does Text::Wrap have any exciting edgecases?
09:32:08 <shachaf> monqy: lens doesn't work at all
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09:35:35 <fizzie> elliott: I don't think Text::Wrap does anything particularly clever, or how well it handles edge cases. splitlong's custom splitting is pretty ad-hoc, it just splits at the rightmost " " character unless that would give a line shorter than maxlen/10+4 character, in which case it just splits at maxlen even in mid-word.
09:36:24 <elliott> fizzie: Can't you make a perfect version?
09:36:38 <fizzie> I don't really know what else I'd need.
09:36:54 <fizzie> Also, autowrap seems to have a "autowrap: unable to split long line. sent as-is" special case, but I don't know if that ever fires.
09:37:12 <fizzie> It happens if Text::Wrap returns a line longer than what has been requested.
09:38:31 <fizzie> According to the documentation, that never happens.
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09:49:36 <Sgeo|web> Are there any emulators that faithfully emulate a CPU such that, it can emulate a Pentium well enough to be vulnerable to f00f?
09:50:38 <olsner> I think f00f was a bug because the Pentium didn't successfully emulate a Pentium
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10:31:54 <Sgeo|web> Hi Phantom_Hoover did you see the updates?
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12:13:55 <elliott> fizzie: Which script should I use. :(
12:15:50 <fizzie> It doesn't work if you don't have it!
12:16:24 <elliott> I hear it doesn't work if you have a cloak.
12:16:29 <shachaf> I guess elliott doesn't use Debian.
12:16:41 <Deewiant> Okay, it appears to on Arch at least.
12:16:42 <fizzie> $ dpkg-query -L irssi | grep -i split
12:16:42 <fizzie> /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong.pl
12:16:54 <elliott> Anyway I hear it doesn't work if you have a cloak.
12:16:59 <elliott> Also its splitting sounds ad-hoc! Is Text::Wrap ad hoc?
12:17:20 <fizzie> It's not any better, if that's what you mean.
12:17:47 <fizzie> It might not have the same per-ten-plus-four rule, but that's about it.
12:18:03 <fizzie> It's still "split at spaces, or if there are no spaces, just split at maximum width".
12:18:36 <Deewiant> The Arch package only includes the .tar.bz2 from irssi.org so presumably it does come with it.
12:20:16 <fizzie> Perhaps you should use schlong.irc. It's the ircII script for a trüe warrior.
12:20:25 <fizzie> http://packetstorm.foofus.com/irc/scripts/schlong.irc there's one version right there.
12:21:02 <fizzie> Just look at that stuff.
12:21:20 <fizzie> (You did ask a generic question about "which script".)
12:23:44 <nortti> who else still uses ircII?
12:24:46 <fizzie> Just the /mircwar commands are the greatest. "/cmosbomb <nick> - CMOS bomb. Probably the worst of them all, this bomb overwrites the CMOS of the victim's PC and replaces it with absolute crap. This often causes dataloss, hardware configuration loss, permanent BIOS damage, permanent mouse damage, and other problems." (It tries to DCC-send some bad heavy-metal poetry with the file name CLOCK$.)
12:24:51 <elliott> fizzie: I think this might be the most 90s file on the internet.
12:25:36 <fizzie> "coal shoved into my skull - the time of beasts - a time to raise the mind plants seeds of time defined within my loathsome eye - the is black of rage - red."
12:25:46 <nortti> does it include winnuke?
12:25:48 <fizzie> (I abbreviated it a bit.)
12:26:14 <elliott> secho Usage: /NETCUM <nick>. Attempts to crash a netcom user.
12:26:31 <fizzie> nortti: Well, it uses an external $nuke_pgm.
12:27:22 <nortti> back when ircII was actually used...
12:27:49 <elliott> /quote PRIVMSG $0 :<CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP>
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12:27:53 <elliott> /quote PRIVMSG $0 :<CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP><CTCP>USERINFO<CTCP>
12:27:57 <elliott> /quote PRIVMSG $0 :<CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP>
12:27:57 <fizzie> I don't see an +++ATH0 ping, but it could just have been obfuscamated.
12:28:01 <elliott> /quote PRIVMSG $0 :<CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>VER<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERS
12:28:05 <elliott> ION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
12:28:08 <elliott> /quote PRIVMSG $0 :<CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP><CTCP>A<CTCP>
12:28:12 <elliott> /quote PRIVMSG $0 :<CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP><CTCP>SED<CTCP>
12:28:12 <fizzie> That was also very a popular thing to do those days.
12:28:16 <elliott> /quote PRIVMSG $0 :<CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP><CTCP>PING<CTCP>
12:28:32 <fizzie> (You can do it with ping -p too.)
12:28:34 <elliott> timer 3 //^topic #^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ DiE mIRC BiTCH - schlOng
12:28:56 <nortti> that messed uo my curses so bad
12:28:59 <elliott> "Usage: /VAXKILL <nick>. Works on VAX 1.7.3 users." wow
12:29:27 <elliott> ^assign BOOMSTR <CTCP>ECHO ¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥ BooM We ArE RoXiN jo0 AsS ¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥
12:29:33 <elliott> ¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥ ¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥<CTCP>
12:29:41 <fizzie> elliott: The "vax killer" is also /ctcp $0 action says hello.
12:29:52 <elliott> secho Neato yet sometimes annoying jumping status logo is now $schroll\.
12:30:17 <fizzie> I should check if my schlong version is newer or later. I think it had some admonishments at top about how it is strictly forbidden to distribute it to "lamers".
12:30:22 <fizzie> (If I can still find it.)
12:30:37 <elliott> fizzie: this script is basically what I imagine EFNet to still be like
12:31:25 <fizzie> There are also all those things targeted to users of different scripts.
12:33:02 <fizzie> See the eval ^if's at the very end; those are to detect if you've loaded an inferior script before loading schlong; it quits if that has happened.
12:33:34 <fizzie> I can't find schlong.irc. :/
12:33:42 <Deewiant> Which might be sensible given the invasive nature of these kinds of scripts?
12:33:54 <Deewiant> (Not that that's necessarily the reason.)
12:35:13 <fizzie> I think I've seen that /topicflood live.
12:35:39 <fizzie> It updates the topic on every on-channel message/notice, to that message's contents.
12:35:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the point of it is.
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12:38:15 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, not since "quit" here means "actually /quit IRC with an author-disparaging message".
12:38:55 <fizzie> There are nine pages of "hacking scripts" in this /crahd/♣ Hacking ♣/cd5hack/Hacking/irc/scripts/ folder of this weird Polish file-sharing site.
12:39:12 -!- elliott has set topic: ♣ Hacking ♣ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
12:40:27 <fizzie> Also in the comments of "furricane"'s "Whiskerino 2009" profile someone is proud of "hav[ing] my nickname mentioned in the schlong.irc (war) script".
12:41:38 <fizzie> I don't know if EFnet is still like this.
12:41:42 <fizzie> I would kind of guess no.
12:42:03 <Deewiant> But maybe the sample size is too small.
12:43:51 <fizzie> elliott: If you get tired of schlong.irc, you can continue by inspecting all the scripts of ftp://igor.onlinedirect.bg/packetstorm/irc/scripts/ -- though judging from the file size, schlong seems to be the biggest thing.
12:44:10 <fizzie> (Maybe it's also the most famous, given that even I had heard of it?)
12:44:31 <Deewiant> Some of those are gzipped, and also tarballs.
12:47:49 <Deewiant> The biggest one of those, osbx1c.tgz, is 295 K when unpacked. Although the tarball is bigger; GNU tar complains about "lone zero block at 940".
12:49:34 <fizzie> It seems very professionally done.
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12:49:39 <fizzie> There's a README.FIRST and all.
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12:51:17 <Deewiant> 940 * 512 is the size of the tarball, so I guess there's just a nowadays-improper ending.
12:51:59 <Deewiant> I guess tarballs just pad small files; I didn't know that.
12:53:15 <Sgeo|web> Although, does it count as a quine if it doesn't print unless you put it on the repl?
12:53:48 <Deewiant> If there's a non-repl possibility and it's not a quine there, it counts as a repl-only quine.
12:54:13 <Sgeo|web> ((fn [s] (list s (list (quote quote) s))) (quote (fn [s] (list s (list (quote quote) s)))))
12:54:33 <Sgeo|web> I think I can safely say I learned how typical quines work, I think
12:56:26 <elliott> ((lambda (x) (list x (list quote x))) (quote (lambda (x) (list x (list quote x)))))
12:56:59 <elliott> Oh, I guess (quote quote) is actually what you want there. I seem to recall a more elegant phrasing...
13:00:10 <Sgeo|web> With a language with good semiquotes I'd imagine it could be written a lot more cleanly
13:09:54 <fizzie> (let ((p '(lambda (q) `(let ((p ',q)) ((eval p) p))))) ((eval p) p)) ; I made this just now, I suppose it's also kinda typical.
13:12:28 <Sgeo|web> What's a good example of an atypical quine?
13:12:50 <Sgeo|web> Maybe something in an esoteric language where the typical quine patterns don't work as well?
13:18:31 <fizzie> Any quine discussion needs a typical Underload quiine.
13:19:00 <fizzie> I try to avoid the ass.
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13:37:39 <Deewiant> ";'D2/';abc+y1{2u$$u'D2/>:#,_@";
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14:05:42 <Deewiant> ";'D2/';abc+y2+1{u'D2/>:#,_@"; a bit nicer and shorter
14:07:48 <elliott> Deewiant: (What language?)
14:08:53 <fizzie> With those semicolons, must be.
14:11:22 <fizzie> bc+y for the stack size, though... I don't think I've used y once.
14:13:22 <fizzie> And that whole 1{u deal; man, Deewiant's code is so 98y.
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14:22:03 <Deewiant> I couldn't think of a 93 pg-less way of reversing the stack. :-P
14:23:37 <Deewiant> Or walking the (almost) whole program from east to west inside " nicely.
14:24:09 <Deewiant> So I figured I'd smite y'all with some proper 98.
14:27:39 <Deewiant> It's Befunge-98 specifically, though, since it uses 2 instead of the appropriate y spell.
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14:36:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: <> #"....." ?
14:39:48 <Deewiant> That's decent. It misses 4 chars but that's probably as good as it gets.
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14:43:20 <fizzie> r #"...." if you want to dip very shallowly into the 98 pool.
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14:45:17 <fizzie> Or ? #"...." which would give you a 93-quine that works only if you're lucky.
14:46:12 <Deewiant> r brings it down to 3, but up to 98 again.
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14:51:25 <Deewiant> Oh, you mentioned r already. Sorry, I'm on my phone and thus managed to miss it.
14:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, I got an email from someone telling me not to be mean about BF derivatives.
14:56:27 <quintopia> but you can be mean about second derivatives
15:03:32 <fizzie> Just don't be mean about a BF Jacobian.
15:06:07 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: was it urban muller
15:06:21 <fizzie> How about some other urban miller?
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15:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Although they do seem to think my hate of BF derivatives comes from a hatred of Brainfuck.
15:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> "There's an esolang better than BF, it's called INTERCAL. If we all made INTERCAL derivatives, would you hate us?"
15:10:01 <fizzie> It almost sounds like they were trying to pull the Words on you.
15:10:22 <fizzie> ("Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?" "Alien, you have spoken the Words, and you have spoken them rightly. We will tell you our reasons why we enslave all other sentient life.")
15:10:42 <fizzie> It's a Star Control 2 thing.
15:10:50 <fizzie> Yes, it would be keeping in character.
15:12:07 <fizzie> "THE WORDS!... the Words... the words alien, you have spoken the Words. You have spoken them rightly. We will explain to you about the Dnyarri our slavemasters the Taalo, our only friends... whom we exterminated and our reasons why we cleanse the galaxy of all other sentient life."
15:12:33 <fizzie> They'd kind of have to say something at least slightly different, seeing that they're not in the enslavement business.
15:14:03 <fizzie> Yes, you certainly don't want any BF-derivative-liking slaves.
15:16:02 <fizzie> You can explain your dislike of BF derivatives to them better, and then close with: "You have heard our words, and perhaps now you understand us a bit better. But now, it is time for us to cleanse you."
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16:32:25 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: well apparently you've done your job wrong
16:32:49 <Arc_Koen> by having 'them' believe it's brainfuck your hate
16:34:27 <Arc_Koen> you can't get a whole galaxy's faith through fear
16:34:38 <Arc_Koen> you have to give them a choice!
16:35:21 <Arc_Koen> well that's what they tried to explain to the Ori but so far their "adore us or die" strategy has been working pretty well
16:36:39 <Arc_Koen> btw do you brainbrick underload-derivative authors as well?
16:39:13 <Arc_Koen> well Chris Pressey just made one
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16:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Arc_Koen, is it an instruction substitution or does it add like 2 new instructions for forking or something
16:46:08 <Arc_Koen> weeeeeeell I'm not familiar with underload
16:46:39 <Arc_Koen> but from what I understand, it substitutes sequences of three bits for underload instructions
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17:54:14 <Gregor> Heeeey, who nixed my wonderful log URL :(
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19:21:56 <zzo38> Please example of Expload
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20:02:54 <zzo38> Do you know that it is possible to rewrite a constant in Csound?
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20:09:37 <zzo38> rapido: More than that, I think.
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20:10:33 <zzo38> Especially since I have added some, too.
20:11:25 <rapido> ah, opcodes that are run by a virtual machine?
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20:13:40 <rapido> how does the community decide that a new opcode should be part of the vm?
20:14:20 <zzo38> They are written in plugins.
20:16:28 <rapido> what is the execution model: data flow?
20:17:09 <zzo38> There is three execution models: score, i-rate, and k-rate.
20:18:50 <zzo38> The score tells it what instrument to play, and then the i-rated opcodes run, and then it runs in the k-rated loops during performance.
20:19:44 <rapido> of course the lag must be minimal
20:20:10 <zzo38> If it is used with real-time then, yes it must be. But, it can be operated without real-time, too.
20:21:12 <rapido> so what's interesting about Csound - programming language wise?
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20:23:07 <zzo38> If I implement a plugin for Proce esolang, then I guess so.
20:25:39 <zzo38> But I may also implement plugin for noit o' mnain worb.
20:26:32 <rapido> this plugin stuff feels like cheating!
20:27:54 <zzo38> Many things can also be implemented using Csound itself, although it the program is large it can make it very slow.
20:30:23 <rapido> does Csound make sure that plugins are well behaved?
20:30:46 <rapido> (guess not if you allow proce as a plugin)
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20:54:57 <coppro> are me and Sgeo actually getting into a war about this?
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21:12:21 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> The reason it isn't more popular is because I wrote it today.
21:12:24 <HackEgo> 864) <zzo38> The reason it isn't more popular is because I wrote it today.
21:18:04 <fizzie> Is it more popular now than it was then?
21:18:24 <oerjan> well i think it's still today.
21:18:31 <oerjan> so a bit early to ask.
21:21:51 <oerjan> <fizzie> "coal shoved into my skull - the time of beasts - a time to raise the mind plants seeds of time defined within my loathsome eye - the is black of rage - red."
21:22:12 <oerjan> (what do you mean it was a quote)
21:24:20 <oerjan> did elliott actually crash soundnfury's irc client in the logs.
21:24:36 <oerjan> i think there might be rules against that. or something.
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21:27:35 <oerjan> alternatively, maybe soundnfury actually tried that command elliott pasted, in which case i guess it's karma.
21:27:56 <oerjan> (what do you mean, it may have been coincidence? no such thing!)
21:28:02 <Taneb> Is it bad I'm parsing the topic in terms of Homestuck shipping?
21:28:22 <oerjan> don't ask me, i'm not into homestuck
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21:28:45 <Fiora> Taneb: that was actually my first instinct too <_<;
21:30:55 <Taneb> I don't think you ever followed me back on Tumblr?
21:33:55 <oerjan> <Sgeo|web> What's a good example of an atypical quine?
21:34:02 <oerjan> my /// one, of course.
21:34:29 <oerjan> underload just makes it _too_ easy.
21:35:01 <oerjan> <micahjohnston> > ap(++)show"ap(++)show"
21:36:11 <Taneb> > (++)<*>show"(++)<*>show"
21:36:13 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `b0 -> b0'
21:36:32 <kmc> > ap(++)show"ap(++)show"
21:37:03 <oerjan> > var$ap(++)show"var$ap(++)show"
21:37:58 <oerjan> > var$ap(++)show"> var$ap(++)show"
21:37:59 <lambdabot> > var$ap(++)show"> var$ap(++)show"
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21:45:37 <Deewiant> <> #"75*:1-\:3-::+2-:2->:#,_37+:3*4+,,@" that there Befunge-93
21:46:24 <oerjan> !befunge <> #"75*:1-\:3-::+2-:2->:#,_37+:3*4+,,@"
21:46:26 <EgoBot> <> #"75*:1-\:3-::+2-:2->:#,_37+:3*4+,,@"
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21:55:21 <Deewiant> ";'D2/';a7y5*d+y7y+1{u'D2/>:#,_@"; dimension-generic now.
22:02:02 <Deewiant> The third y saves a character in total.
22:02:41 <fizzie> Am I the only one who sees https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Snaps/20121205-vr-mainos.png as a... sort-of inappropriate ad?
22:03:08 <Deewiant> (The alternative is : after the first y and y+1- instead of y7y+)
22:03:17 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know that language.
22:03:30 <Deewiant> zzo38: I think he meant the picture.
22:03:39 <fizzie> zzo38: It's Finnish; but I just meant the image, right.
22:04:01 <Deewiant> fizzie: I see your point but I'm not sure I would've noticed if you hadn't mentioned it, so it's not that bad IMO.
22:04:54 <zzo38> I made a Csound plugin to interpret noit o' mnain worb. I added two extensions, being ; for comments and ? for a negative load.
22:04:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: I suppose it's more me than the ad, then.
22:05:44 <zzo38> Now you can list that implementation if you want to.
22:14:16 <ion> Getaway in Finland http://youtu.be/VrZ9_H1qXxg
22:15:38 <zzo38> aload, apressure, abobules worb Sfilename, xfreq, xsource, xsink, [imaxpressure], [iexponent], [iskip]
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22:26:35 <fizzie> Any highlights? That's like half an hour.
22:32:39 <ion> The guy uses the turn signals. :-D
22:33:05 <ion> Nothing spectacular at least up to 33:44, just a standard chase.
22:34:07 <fizzie> The roads seem to be getting smaller and smaller, judging from the thumbnails.
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22:40:46 <fizzie> Aw, the guy in the back seemed so disappointed for the last second or so.
22:42:00 <ion> 36:57 (on radio) “Can you give your whereabouts?” “I wish I knew.” The Finnish police run a professional operation.
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23:46:26 <megalinux> hello i'm from brazil you's peak portuguese ?
23:48:38 <oerjan> not me, i don't know if anyone else here does
23:49:48 <oerjan> i don't know portuguese
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23:52:47 <oerjan> argh i tried /list *-pt but it seems to list all channels :(
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00:34:35 <HackEgo> cuwauwi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:39:10 <oerjan> Antidisestablishmentarianist!
00:41:41 <oerjan> you don't _have_ to stop breathing while reading the word, you know
00:42:20 <Gregor> But the Anglican church /must/ be separated from the crown!
00:43:56 <oerjan> the Queen will _not_ be amused.
00:45:33 -!- glogbackup has joined.
00:46:02 <oerjan> see, you've confused the bots again!
00:50:17 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a little known fact that the anglican church is actually one of the central structural components of the crown
00:50:45 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't separate it, all the jewels will fall of and it would flop around like a blancmange
00:51:08 <lambdabot> *** "blancmange" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:51:08 <lambdabot> n 1: sweet almond-flavored milk pudding thickened with gelatin
00:51:25 <Phantom_Hoover> honestly oerjan surely you've heard of the blancmange curve
00:52:03 <oerjan> indeed i have. just now in fact
00:53:50 <oerjan> well it does look similar to some stuff (weierstrass curve?)
00:56:39 <oerjan> ooh that triangle sum looks _very_ familiar. i think it was the very curve i was trying to convince someone else was nowhere differentiable in my first university year or so
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01:00:34 <oerjan> i was a better mathematician than him, but he was a better programmer/hacker
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01:09:03 <HackEgo> gasoline: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:09:12 <oerjan> (everyone be careful with the matches)
01:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, (it occurs to me that it's only obvious that the blancmange is non-differentiable on a countable subset of [0,1])
01:10:08 <Phantom_Hoover> the reason for HackEgo and EgoBot both existing is admittedly pretty confusing
01:10:35 <oerjan> ^echo I'm bizarre too!
01:10:35 <fungot> I'm bizarre too! I'm bizarre too!
01:10:51 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: definition if universe and if/ what is responsible for a unix box somewhere
01:11:25 <gasoline> does the kosmos orignate from order or disorder / chaos
01:12:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yeah i think my argument may have been a bit non-rigorous
01:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i guess you can go from "nondifferentiable in a dense subset" to "nowhere differentiable" pretty quickly with the actual definitions
01:13:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i'm not going to be on that either way
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01:14:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((I am programmable too! )S:^):^
01:14:45 <fungot> I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I am programmable too! I ...too much output!
01:14:54 <fungot> shachaf: btw i still don't get it just because i use it for screen???
01:15:10 <shachaf> yes, fungot. just because you use it for screen
01:15:11 <fungot> shachaf: but eventually, you start depending on eval order, you can do
01:15:58 <Bike> markov chains sure are chatty folk, wouldn't you agree, fungot
01:15:59 <fungot> Bike: rather than after trying rewind on it purely from the perspective of someone who has a javascript-based search form he tries to trick humans into making losing bargains, just like in doom
01:16:20 * oerjan is reminded of Gregor's (?) horrible tome of eval puns
01:16:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:16:39 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
01:16:57 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: oh, of the house, so he wasn't joking i don't bolivia! something that might help us get a healer
01:17:17 <oerjan> i don't bolivia either
01:17:31 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: but, but... that's not a fish. it's a lump of rock! we didn't give any thought the guys at nasa has fast-tracked a prototype deep has held out well, a funny thing happened on a real. how come they are, since i heard the news from the east of paris. made of plaster
01:17:33 <gasoline> is it in anyones intentions to make sense ?
01:17:54 <HackEgo> GASOLINE: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
01:18:00 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
01:19:10 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: final space problem
01:19:33 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a lying Norwegian.
01:19:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if you tab complete a nick it gives a final space. `? distinguishes that from without.
01:21:00 <Bike> is this seriously a whole irc bot written in befunge
01:21:14 <Bike> this was compiled from something else
01:21:18 <Bike> tell me it was
01:21:40 <shachaf> Fungot is written in Befunge?
01:21:58 <Bike> i refuse to believe a human wrote this
01:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, not as far as i know, and it doesn't look like it is
01:22:03 <FireFly> I thought that was common knowledge?
01:22:13 <oerjan> fizzie: Bike refuses to believe you are human
01:22:21 <Bike> i'm sorry fizzie, i have principles
01:22:37 <FireFly> fizzie just passed the anti-Turing test?
01:22:54 <oerjan> > "We have lambdabot here too!"
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01:23:11 <Bike> lambdabot is haskell, right
01:24:20 <shachaf> Bike: That's not the proper way to address lambdabot.
01:24:53 <Phantom_Hoover> HackEgo and EgoBot are both sandboxed linux environment thingies
01:25:07 <shachaf> Can I run commands as root on HackEgo?
01:25:08 <oerjan> oonbotti: you are here too!
01:25:09 <oonbotti> oerjan: Why do you think I am here too!?
01:25:21 <oerjan> shachaf: you can _try_...
01:25:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:25:34 <oonbotti> FireFly: Perhaps you would like me to be a bot.
01:25:41 <Bike> @thanks, lambdabot
01:25:42 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
01:26:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:26:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:26:24 <Bike> speaking of turing tests, quick poll, raise your hand if you're actually an ELIZA script
01:26:58 <FreeFull> An ELIZA script would turn that into a question
01:27:15 <Fiora> How would you feel about actually being an ELIZA script?
01:27:19 <Bike> ha, you fail the eliza test oerjan
01:27:42 <Bike> shachaf, what is the color of the pyramid on the green block
01:27:54 <shachaf> Gregor: Can we have root access to HackEgo?
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01:28:58 <HackEgo> bin canary foo karma lib paste quotes share wisdom zalgo.hs
01:29:29 <shachaf> Is that the same thing as echo $(ls)?
01:29:52 <Bike> i think xargs is meant to be a safe version that deals with quotation and stuff
01:30:00 <Bike> since shell is kind of. chaotic
01:30:38 <oerjan> i've been using | fmt -w500 or thereabouts for HackEgo
01:30:58 <FreeFull> | xargs is just a lazy way to get everything on one line
01:31:14 <FireFly> well, xargs has proper uses too
01:31:17 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
01:31:50 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
01:32:52 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'print "Broken I think"'
01:32:56 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
01:33:26 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ delquotee \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping
01:36:57 <kmc> know what?
01:37:04 <kmc> xargs with no args?
01:37:15 <kmc> that's convenient
01:38:31 <shachaf> kmc: fungot is written in Befunge.
01:38:32 <fungot> shachaf: oh, there's a sign, maybe. it's the only country with a specific law against walking up the path! wranglin' giant reptiles. in the background
01:40:24 <kmc> i didn't know that either
01:40:28 <shachaf> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
01:40:29 <fungot> shachaf: sorry, i don't know what they're up here while dad and i know, the guy who does the opposite of normal software engineering we've seen you before in cyberspace. this patch of light a star. they're too uncouth point, followed by the gerund if necessary, bein' dead on flimsy premise. the characters exchanged jokes about it amidst unresolved sexual tension.
01:41:46 <SingingBoyo> whoever wrote fungot is insane. funges are hard.
01:41:46 <fungot> SingingBoyo: are you sure the technology! come about fer what purpose, ye scurvy creature! it's killed kyros and lambert, a travelling merchant, practised with bow, can i make new laws on the books, is now carting around two wannabe scientists are still growing! they look, let me pick something of it, fast, highly technological terror you've constructed. the ability to be captured a spanish galleon! arrr!!
01:41:48 <kmc> impressive
01:42:45 <FireFly> "fast, highly technological terror you've constructed"
01:43:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:43:22 <ion> shachaf: lens/travis-cabal-apt-install uses xargs for that.
01:43:50 <shachaf> fungot: That's not the first time fungot has said that.
01:43:50 <fungot> shachaf: you! shall not! parse! enjoying the easy life at the expense of the artwork, and if the thermal exhaust port gets hit... i should join the dark side, the snakes, and 9...
01:45:23 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
01:45:30 <fungot> FireFly: avril lavigne could be wrong. this website is pretty good for about 10 seconds and then i jizz in my pants. great job
01:45:54 <SingingBoyo> Firefly: that's what you get for going with youtube
01:46:34 <fungot> shachaf: what/ why are you, stop looking for the movie.
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02:41:00 <fungot> kmc: haha jt shaking his head. and bullet time?
02:41:15 <kmc> fungot! fun..got!
02:41:16 <fungot> kmc: nothing to do some break, but computers have no theory, you really that hard for you. he's a pretend christian. his brother is a fake?
02:44:59 <kmc> fungot: great job
02:44:59 <fungot> kmc: i guess, possibly to the person who feels sick after watching this kind of " mental instability". too much, the docks, the history channel on modern marvels, they always bring him back as a result of very poor research.
02:46:03 <kmc> ^style iwcs
02:46:03 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
02:46:11 <kmc> ^style lovecraft
02:46:12 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
02:46:16 <fungot> kmc: published fnord 1936 in astounding stories, vol. 13, p. fnord. prop... fnord...
02:47:01 <kmc> in college i used to collect old CRT monitors and have them in my room displaying markov chain output in that xscreensaver 'phosphor' mode, 24/7
02:47:29 <kmc> i had one that was trained on the holy books of the world's religions
02:47:41 <kmc> and another that was trained on the wikipedia talk pages regarding the world's religions
02:48:05 <kmc> so the first one would proselytize continuously and the second one would conduct flamewars with itself
02:49:02 <Bike> this sounds like a meditation ritual
03:12:46 <shachaf> spj wants YOU for G.H.C. army
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03:28:44 <shachaf> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2012-December/105041.html
03:29:43 <Sgeo> :( why does CentOS include an obsolete Mercurial?
03:30:40 <kmc> CentOS has exactly the same packages as the corresponding RHEL version
03:30:45 <kmc> if you want newer stuff you should add EPEL
03:36:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I could just compile and use Mercurial from source?
03:37:11 <Sgeo> Using obsolete is not an option -- I sort of copied all the stuff over from one machine to another
03:39:23 <kmc> why are you using centos?
03:40:20 <Sgeo> Because not my choice, although I do have root access
03:43:43 <shachaf> If you have root access, you have a choice.
03:48:16 <Sgeo> How long does it take for a caffeine addiction to develop?
03:48:43 <Sgeo> I had one coffe on Monday and one on Tuesday, now I'm looking forward to having coffee on Thursday
03:49:11 <shachaf> When do you drink your coffee?
03:50:20 <shachaf> <kmc> 1100 drink coffee everyday
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04:48:44 <kmc> more like 1100 drink a 7-Eleven Double Gulp everyday
04:52:59 <Sgeo> Wouldn't doing that at 0711 make more sense?
04:53:26 <kmc> no because i am not awake then
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05:27:24 <zzo38> A chess variant: The king is allowed to make a long move once per game.
05:28:00 <zzo38> (Castling does not count as this long move.)
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07:47:53 <fizzie> I thought I was human. :/ :\
07:49:37 <fizzie> fungot: Did I at least write you?
07:49:38 <fungot> fizzie: it was while struggling up the colossal spiral incline that we first encounter the permanent entry of the weird over the ancient eastern mind, and there was nothing anywhere but blackness and horror and silence and bones.
07:49:53 <Bike> oh, are there tong-nou fans here?
07:51:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
07:51:25 <fizzie> (Okay, that was obvious.)
07:51:27 <shachaf> Ah, Constructed Product Result
07:51:45 <shachaf> Really, "Construct Product Result"?
07:52:25 <Bike> tong-nou is an obscure video game, i was just wondering because the phrase "eastern mind" doesn't come up in many other contexts (that aren't, like, racist orientalist shit, maybe?)
07:52:58 <olsner> fungot knows many things
07:52:59 <fungot> olsner: published november 1923 in weird tales, vol. 45, no. 1, p. fnord.
07:53:20 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
07:53:22 <fungot> shachaf: the secret of wands of nothing happens: try again! xander double ( grabbing the gun): a japanese flail. ( autolycus the rogue, from the dead body of a wand of undead turning might bring your dog.
07:53:36 <shachaf> the secret of wands of nothing happens: try again!
07:53:45 <fungot> shachaf: sorry, no one really subscribes to rec.games.roguelike.nethack. ' you have a hidden enchanted touch. we are fools" ( the rime of the days before he had still spent a deal of indian lore in his memory. ( prehistoric animals, and from the cemetery intimidates and disconcerts that which startled mrs. hall. it has become an accepted fact amongst the practitioners of the same fashion that a shimmering gold shield is not lik
07:53:51 <fizzie> Lovecraft could arguably be "racist orientalist shit".
07:54:34 <Bike> dunno if i'd call him orientalist, he went more the "evil hivemind" route than the "ancient Chinese wisdom" route
07:54:56 <fizzie> fungot: What kind of settings did I use for this style? It's so incoherent.
07:54:56 <fungot> fizzie: thoth: the minotaur was a monster you'll have a hidden enchanted touch.
07:55:34 <shachaf> fungot fungot fungot fungot fungot
07:56:36 <fizzie> It seems very interested in the hidden enchanted touch.
07:56:52 <fungot> shachaf: most of the wild, hunters but hunters ever of the mazes. he created an empire in which they died and in the saddle, and at times the gods are happy when they take the back of the oligocene being 8 feet high, and i will eat them.
07:57:43 <fizzie> I think "them" is referring to the gods.
08:01:10 <fungot> olsner: marduk: first in the use of his seed unto molech, to the galaxy, by sucking the blood of sleeping persons.... thrice i filled the tub and emptied it. however, one would go endlessly along its twisting paths without ever finding the exit. ( excerpted from internet oracularity 576.6)
08:01:36 <fizzie> Man, those Internet Oracle answers are sometimes kinda weird.
08:01:38 <Bike> that's pretty appropriate, I think.
08:02:12 <fizzie> I should maybe add a style one of these days, I haven't done it in a long while.
08:02:25 <olsner> internet oracle style?
08:02:50 <olsner> or, how about... gangnam style? HAHA so funny
08:03:28 <Bike> )()))))((()()()()(((()))()()())))(()((())(
08:04:07 <fizzie> A bit behind the times, there.
08:04:23 <Bike> everybody here's seen the music video without music, right
08:05:00 <olsner> is it actually the video without music or is it just redubbed with sound effects?
08:05:32 <Bike> it's redubbed to add sound effects, but it's pretty good
08:05:53 <Bike> i've yet to actually hear the song, whenever i'm tempted to I just go back and watch the music video instead.
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08:18:56 <fungot> olsner: they say that a lembas wafer is a good way off from among his people; because he hath given of his face exposed excepting only his pink, peaked nose. it was overheard or repeated by an eight- pointed star. he is the best from their priesthood.
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08:20:37 <olsner> a lembas wafer is "a good way off"? interesting
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08:31:25 <GreyKnight> Heh my IRC client got confused by that :-)
08:31:51 <GreyKnight> So I had another great idea for communist programming
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08:32:45 <GreyKnight> Integers are the workers of computing, but those hoity-toity objects take all the credit
08:32:57 <HackEgo> GreyKnight: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:33:01 <GreyKnight> What if we throw out all the objects and give their methods/properties to integers instead?
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08:33:27 <GreyKnight> shachaf: I've been here a hundred times but thanks anyway :-P
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08:35:01 <GreyKnight> Well... I already knew everything in the welcome blurb...
08:35:31 <shachaf> The point is to make you feel welcome, not to teach you.
08:36:04 <HackEgo> GrEyKnIgHt: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
08:38:00 <HackEgo> ＧＲＥＹＫＮＩＧＨＴ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥＣＫ ＯＵＴ ＯＵＲ ＷＩＫＩ： ＨＴＴＰ：／／ＥＳＯＬＡＮＧＳ．ＯＲＧ／ＷＩＫＩ／Ｍ
08:38:24 <shachaf> `run printf '\x031a\x032b\x033c\x034d'
08:38:31 <GreyKnight> Anyway, suppose we use integers in place of objects/classes. The catch is that if, for example, you modify the .equals() method of 5, it affects all instances of 5
08:41:50 <GreyKnight> I guess you should use integers instead of floats instead? Just make them all rational, easy
08:42:55 <oklofok> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
08:43:20 <oklofok> "if, for example, you modify the .equals() method of 5, it affects all instances of 5" reminded me of this
08:45:02 <GreyKnight> I guess if I have a .value() method or something I can maybe produce a superset of Forte's functionality
08:46:08 <ais523> hmm, so cpressey has written an underload derivative
08:46:08 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
08:46:12 <lambdabot> oerjan said 3d 9h 48m 47s ago: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Carriage#Representation_erasure
08:46:22 <GreyKnight> Hm a string can be regarded as a function mapping integers to integers
08:46:24 <ais523> I finally feel like I'm officially a big esolang name
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08:47:45 <fizzie> ais523: You've "made it", now. No more financial troubles for the rest of your life.
08:48:05 <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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08:51:38 <GreyKnight> ais523: at least I suppose you got a bit famous for *not* implementing a certain esoteric language :-)
08:55:36 <ais523> everyone's famous for that :)
08:56:32 <GreyKnight> At least you could legitimately claim you were waiting for your future self to do it
08:57:41 <ais523> `run printf '\u031a\u032b\u033c\u034d'
08:57:50 <GreyKnight> Oh, hey, the string-as-function thing should work for Feather too
08:57:52 <ais523> OK, printf doesn't implement that yet
08:58:09 <ais523> shachaf: \x only reads the next two digits; \u does four, \U does eight
08:58:15 <ais523> in most languages which have them
08:58:27 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, but I wanted two characters.
08:58:30 <shachaf> I was trying to IRC colors.
08:58:53 <ais523> I think HackEgo has a control code filter
08:59:14 <shachaf> Thanks for being terrible, HackEgo. :-(
08:59:22 <shachaf> All the coolbots use colour these days.
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09:06:16 <Taneb> https://github.com/Frib/Armok
09:06:26 <Taneb> Someone made an esolang without realising
09:08:53 <ais523> is it a BF derivative?
09:10:08 <Taneb> I don't think it's a BF derivative
09:10:33 <Taneb> It's closer to MARIOLang with threading
09:10:41 <fizzie> ^bf +++>,[<.>.,[.[-]],]!2a3b4c5d
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09:11:40 <ais523> did that come out in color? I set my client to filter colors
09:11:57 <fizzie> Thanks for being terrible, ais523.
09:12:02 <fizzie> (To paraphrase shachaf.)
09:12:14 <fizzie> I don't know, but apparently it is.
09:12:29 <fizzie> I suppose life's just flat and dull without colours?
09:14:37 <fizzie> ^bf +++>,>,[<<.>.+>.+]!1a
09:14:37 <fungot> abcdefghi:j;k<l=m>n?o@pAqBrCsDtEuFvGwHxIyJzK{L|M}N~OPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstu ...
09:14:45 <fizzie> Well, it started all right.
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09:32:30 <shachaf> @thx for being terrible, lambdabot
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09:42:55 <Taneb> Is data Stack :: * -> * -> * where Empty :: Stack Zero a; (:-) :: a -> Stack n a -> Stack (Succ n) a traversable?
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09:50:18 <shachaf> kmc: Did you read http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/Papers/cpr/index.htm ?
09:50:32 <shachaf> The other end of "how to make a fast curry".
09:50:53 <shachaf> rwbarton pointed out that the dual of currying is more like returning sums than returning products.
09:50:58 <shachaf> Or at least I think that's what he was saying.
09:51:04 <shachaf> Compare foldr and unfoldr, for example.
09:57:06 <shachaf> Can you do similar partial inlining for things that accept/return sums?
09:59:45 <Sgeo> elliott fizzie
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10:01:54 <HackEgo> GREYKNIGHT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
10:08:54 <GreyKnight> I like that Taneb's snippet has a :-) in it
10:09:25 <shachaf> How do you feel about its (:- ?
10:11:27 <lambdabot> SamB_XP says: I once saw it eat a comment (:[{- Help! -}])
10:12:48 <GreyKnight> What does the syntax mean anyway, I only know a tiny bit of Haskell
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10:14:19 <shachaf> Oh, it's just referring to the infix name :-
10:14:33 <shachaf> (+) is a function that takes two arguments.
10:14:47 <shachaf> (^2) is a function that takes one argument and squares it.
10:14:59 <GreyKnight> I knew you could do that, just didn't think of :- as an operator
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11:28:13 <Sgeo> McAffee was arrested
11:36:33 <Sgeo> Oh, right, that script that points out how I had some severe connection issues?
11:36:47 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ perl -n -e '/:(.*?)!.*JOIN/; $j{$1}++; END {print "$_ $j{$_};" for sort {$j{$b} <=> $j{$a}} keys %j}' $@
11:37:31 <Sgeo> Oh, my most recent JOIN was as Sgeo|web
11:38:02 <Sgeo> Hmm, I guess you also have to pass it the filename of a log file?
11:38:24 <Sgeo> Also, why do you hate me?
11:38:35 <coppro> I was curious what it did
11:38:47 <coppro> so in one CS class there's a rather silly assignment which is the end of a series of assignments
11:39:18 <coppro> wherein you are given a simple CFG and work on derivations
11:39:26 <coppro> the CFG is just bracketed subtraction expressions on numbers
11:40:06 <coppro> the last problem, inexplicably titled 'Galaxy' instead of, say, 'Problem 4', is to evaluate the expression given a derivation, assuming that all numbers are 42
11:40:46 <coppro> unfortunately, due to the rather lame subset of everything useful that they use, you can ignore the whole CFG thing and just do simple text evaluation
11:41:00 <Sgeo> I don't even really know what CFG is
11:41:28 <coppro> I managed to golf the whole assignment down to 53 characters of perl
11:43:15 <oklopol> Sgeo: you don't know how context-free grammars work?
11:43:28 <coppro> I was sad I couldn't break 50
11:43:33 <Sgeo> Didn't recognize the abbreviation. I have ... some idea
11:44:47 <oklopol> for instance "initial state A, rules A -> a, A -> aAa, B -> bb" is a CFG. it generates the words a, abba, aabbaa, aaabbaaa etc
11:45:34 <oklopol> *for instance "initial state A, rules A -> bb, A -> aAa" is a CFG. it generates the words bb, abba, aabbaa, aaabbaaa etc
11:45:45 <oklopol> because A -> bb gives the word bb
11:45:52 <oklopol> A -> aAa -> abba gives abba
11:46:04 <oklopol> A -> aAa -> aaAaa -> aabbaa gives aabbaa
11:47:37 <oklopol> here, A is a nonterminal, a and b are terminals. the set of words generated is the set of words over terminals you can generate by turning left hand sides of rules into right hand sides of rules. left hand sides of rules are always just a single nonterminal.
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11:48:28 <oklopol> everyone should learn to love CFG's, they're the second best language class
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12:03:11 <GreyKnight> ais523: I want to vary from your example feather code slightly
12:04:50 <GreyKnight> Have a program be a function [ sys ¦ body... ] and the "root object" is passed as the sys argument when starting up
12:04:50 <GreyKnight> atomCompare, callCC, and IO can be extracted as properties of sys
12:07:27 <GreyKnight> My normal keyboard fails at regular pipes :-P
12:09:37 <Sgeo> Wait, there exists example Feather code?
12:10:36 <GreyKnight> And part of the syntax was already obsolete (grouping is now by parentheses not brackets)
12:10:56 <GreyKnight> I have some examples of my own based on discussions with ais523
12:13:14 <GreyKnight> E.g. the =<< method can be defined on o by:
12:13:16 <GreyKnight> o =<< <<= [dummy ¦ callcc [cc ¦ o <<= <<= cc]]
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12:18:22 <Sgeo> I feel pathetic that I didn't get this until I read the discussion
12:18:22 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-001-ex-j
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12:27:17 <Sgeo> Hi Taneb did you see update (not particulary makot)
12:27:23 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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12:31:31 <SingingBoyo> SingingBoyo: if you need me I'll be off riding my moose.
12:31:32 <shachaf> What was your previous nick?
12:32:29 <Taneb> `welcome SiningBoyo
12:32:34 <HackEgo> SiningBoyo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:32:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15311
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12:33:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10325
12:33:36 <SingingBoyo> oh hmm. guess I was around for a day or so ages back.
12:33:38 <oklofok> hello ais and other people who don't see colors
12:34:17 <shachaf> oklofok: I see colors, including this one.
12:35:05 <oklofok> what color is your background?
12:35:44 <oklofok> would be nice to know everyone's background color so i could secretly communicate with only people with non-white backgrounds
12:36:07 <SingingBoyo> hmm. I can read that. and I have a white background
12:36:33 <oklofok> can you read "so i could secretly communicate with only people with non-white backgrounds"?
12:37:05 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm not very good at defining traversable instances
12:37:09 <Taneb> But I've got it now :)
12:38:02 <shachaf> Taneb: Isn't it the same as []'s Traversable instance?
12:39:11 <fungot> GreyKnight: they say that you can only kill a lich once and then led to the military base, two soldiers appeared before him! ( who goes there?, by j.r.r. tolkien)
12:41:08 <Taneb> shachaf, annoyingly, not quite
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12:43:04 <oklofok> GreyKnight: i'm pretty sure it's the same palette in every client
12:44:04 <oklofok> because you send something like 0x01 where 1 is some small number and then you send and ascii number between 0-15 and that's what colors it
12:45:55 <oklofok> the same palette in the sense that you can send me the same colors as anyone else, of course they might look silly in your end, but then so will our messages prolly
12:51:45 <GreyKnight> dusty pink beige light brown turquoise
12:52:12 <oklofok> also the number seems to be taken mod 16
12:52:49 <FireFly> Probably depends on the implementation
12:56:30 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokok o
12:57:09 <oklofok> so it's mod 16 when i'm writing the message, then shows up as white after going through the network.
12:57:36 <oklofok> then again mirc/nnscript shows many things differently in the prompt than on channel
12:58:22 <oklofok> also up there i first said 32 color codes, then 32 colored spaces. oops.
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13:03:16 <lambdabot> "okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokok...
13:03:41 <fungot> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokok ...too much output!
13:04:04 <fungot> shachaf: if you can't wipe your greasy bare hands on a scare monster scroll. ( the stand, by sucking the blood of sleeping persons.... the legend tells how the wind, the lyre, pan's pipes, numbers, the first ever seen your weapon and take off your clothes.
13:04:13 <FireFly> GNUgot, a GNU implementation of fungot
13:04:13 <fungot> FireFly: it is rectangular in shape, very thin cakes, made of a sort of thing hrun the barbarian and the outside, he was bested only twice: once when orpheus put him to attempt the conquest of medusa.
13:04:22 <fungot> shachaf: a magic lamp. once in a knockingshop it was another cockatrice. i knew my erik too well to feel the latter with just a computer key, followed by a priestess who went into his back. knife in his honor. it wraps itself around its prey and digests it.
13:04:28 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
13:04:30 <fungot> shachaf: this looks pretty good run-down of the french guy is a pig next to grandma, they certainly felt very max payne-ish yes, i like hip hop no trance...1 2 3..........wtf...opera...
13:05:15 <FireFly> Makes perfect sense, fungot
13:05:15 <fungot> FireFly: i am buying this album.
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13:13:00 <fungot> oklofok: cool hair. i can say
13:13:57 <GreyKnight> fungot's latest album, out now, just in time for Christmas!
13:13:57 <fungot> GreyKnight: looks like they have been writing and directing the digital shorts more often!
13:14:00 <GreyKnight> Hmm "fungot's" doesn't trigger him? Not sure how I feel about this
13:14:00 <fungot> GreyKnight: " plus the way they make there games) and non-frizzy!!!!
13:14:01 <GreyKnight> fungot, what will be on your new album?
13:14:01 <fungot> GreyKnight: coulda been good once, as it was good and bad things so in depth so game has a point. and bullet time))) luv av. and more
13:14:28 <oklofok> i will buy this album too.
13:15:05 <GreyKnight> Wow, digital shorts and games? Best album ever
13:15:21 <fungot> GreyKnight: i am not 100% sure. and the crash
13:16:44 <GreyKnight> Oh dear, it crashes if you try to access the hidden track :-(
13:19:35 <GreyKnight> Given this style is trained from youtube comments, I'm surprised fungot isn't swearing more...
13:25:57 <GreyKnight> Hm, not just me lagged, is it fungot ?
13:25:58 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
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13:27:18 <GreyKnight> Phantom_Hoover: TBF I don't use that site much, but I was reliably informed the comments have a high proportion of scum and villainy
13:27:21 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
13:36:42 <fungot> SingingBoyo: now type a second. if you " branch out of the cursor, fetches characters from ram, instead determines where screen memory pointer at 56 ( 38),
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14:14:56 <nortti> up is direction that is on the opposite direction of direction down
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14:20:18 <GreyKnight> Up is what ais523 connection isn't, much
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14:29:43 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bid dice id ping pl time
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14:30:33 <PH|ohgodwhat> help my connection to irc keeps dropping as soon as i connect in xchat
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15:16:28 <elliott> 03:29:43 <Sgeo> :( why does CentOS include an obsolete Mercurial?
15:16:33 <elliott> never mind i don't want to know
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15:17:23 <elliott> 04:48:44 <kmc> more like 1100 drink a 7-Eleven Double Gulp everyday
15:17:24 <elliott> 04:52:59 <Sgeo> Wouldn't doing that at 0711 make more sense?
15:17:24 <elliott> 04:53:25 <kmc> no because i am not awake then
15:18:43 <GreyKnight> the new diet craze that's sweeping the nation
15:23:52 <elliott> 13:05:15 <fungot> FireFly: i am buying this album.
15:23:53 <fungot> elliott: it stores the scan line at a time. there are two types of argu- ments are also available to you from where the sprite at 3 locations one at a rate of the switches are used to send into the same timing test on a ( a value of 2048 ( 801),
15:23:54 <elliott> 13:13:00 <oklofok> fungot: which album
15:23:54 <elliott> 13:13:00 <fungot> oklofok: cool hair. i can say
15:23:54 <fungot> elliott: a control message. press play record messages, this subroutine is ffd2. when
15:23:54 <fungot> elliott: a normal character set. in the frequency is the only way to get the number will make all keys repeating, while the 8 bits provide single raster resolution within the device you intend opening a datasette recorder file, you select one of the locations affected are control register ( pr) and
15:23:56 <elliott> 13:14:01 <GreyKnight> fungot, what will be on your new album?
15:23:56 <elliott> 13:14:01 <fungot> GreyKnight: coulda been good once, as it was good and bad things so in depth so game has a point. and bullet time))) luv av. and more
15:23:57 <fungot> elliott: there are, however, keep in mind when you write, and
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15:25:29 <GreyKnight> elliott, it's not just music! It has digital shorts and games too!
15:25:43 <fungot> GreyKnight: the exception to this bit is set to 1 and 1.99999..., and then resume execution by typing the run/ stop key is pressed
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15:34:28 <Taneb> shachaf, you can't use the list instance because it makes a type error
15:34:46 <Taneb> "Couldn't match type `Succ Zero' with `Zero'"
15:36:30 <Taneb> I've made separate instances for Stack Zero and Traversable (Stack n) => Traversable (Stack (Succ n))
15:39:25 <GreyKnight> ...you guys are trying to do computation with a type system, aren't you
15:39:48 <Taneb> And just encoding the length of the stack
15:44:51 <nortti> I'll try computation with type system after I finish my list based "computer" in cpp
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15:50:55 <elliott> Taneb: did you see ph got complaints about that blog
15:51:16 <Taneb> ...the one I write?
15:51:26 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
15:51:29 <elliott> whereby "ph" i mean "taneb"
15:51:56 <elliott> Taneb: it was from the author of one of the languages you reviewed
15:52:34 <Taneb> GreyKnight, not serious ones
15:52:50 <Taneb> It's me pretending to be Phantom_Hoover being nasty to brainfuck derivatives
15:52:55 <Taneb> elliott, where's the complaint?
15:53:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, can you forward it to me?
15:54:00 <Taneb> Or do you mean the Tumblr account's inbox?
15:54:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
15:54:40 <GreyKnight> Taneb, might still be amusing, link plox :-)
15:54:48 <Taneb> phantom-hoover.tumblr.com
15:54:59 <Taneb> Tumblr's blocked here
15:55:44 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, elliott says someone's been complaining about your blog
15:56:04 <Taneb> Can you forward the complaint to me?
15:56:51 <GreyKnight> Taneb, "just a single solid of text" you say
15:57:07 <Taneb> I'm afraid I can't edit it from here
15:57:25 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
15:57:32 <fungot> FireFly: the masamune!? crono, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
15:57:57 <GreyKnight> fungot is getting a bit gothy there, picnics in a graveyard?!
15:57:58 <fungot> GreyKnight: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
15:58:22 <GreyKnight> ...and now we're recreating Jack and the Beanstalk
15:58:41 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! he must be the invention. hope it still leaves you hungry! here you are the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos.
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15:59:05 <Phantom__Hoover> oh god i don't remember what he actually said, it was like two years go
15:59:18 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:00:01 <Taneb> fizzie, is the format I would use to write a style and email it to you publicized anywhere?
16:00:15 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
16:00:28 <Taneb> fungot, is this wikipedia?
16:00:29 <fungot> Taneb: please go to :image:wvcr-fm.jpgthe image description page and edit it to include a wikipedia:fair use rationale guideline fair use rationale on the other images used on this page.
16:00:45 <fungot> FireFly: ' ' edison built a bulb with the inside surface covered with metal foil. he connected the foil to the positive terminal of the filament, the many electons emmitted from the hot filament were attracted to the daughter, and eagerly agrees to rent the room.
16:00:48 <GreyKnight> fungot, are you related to betacommandbot?!?
16:00:50 <fungot> GreyKnight: i don't know what it's about, it allows the construction of the french monarchy?" so third, the experiment is not about “knowing or not knowing the which way fnord but actually the fnord together of a fringe and fnord pattern because of the passage of time.
16:01:18 <FireFly> "the many electons emmitted from the hot filament were attracted to the daughter" what?
16:01:34 <GreyKnight> the electron-daughter interaction, didn't you pay attention in school?
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16:13:05 <fungot> GreyKnight: gnu license for the site to communicate directly with her fans whether they want her to or not, this is the intended meaning? it would appear the original definition of conservative.)
16:23:55 -!- slickeli has left.
16:45:29 <GreyKnight> hm the GNU license has fans and is female
16:46:40 <GreyKnight> what IS that link in the topic? It's blocked for me
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16:58:11 <FireFly> isn't it obvious from the URL?
16:58:51 -!- Taneb has quit (Client Quit).
17:00:32 <GreyKnight> something to do with turkeys and a molotov cocktail
17:01:05 <Deewiant> Link worked for me, although a bit slowly
17:01:18 <GreyKnight> I figured that part was a joke since turkeys aren't a particularly mainstream fetish AFAIK
17:02:46 <FireFly> Depends on what you think of us
17:02:56 -!- kallisti has joined.
17:03:01 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host).
17:03:01 -!- kallisti has joined.
17:03:01 <FireFly> ...assuming it's meant to point to what I think it is
17:03:32 <FireFly> curl: (7) couldn't connect to host at 5z8.info:80
17:04:06 -!- Deewiant has set topic: ♣ Hacking ♣ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:04:21 <Deewiant> It's slow enough that it's counterproductive
17:04:51 <Deewiant> GreyKnight: 5z8.info is shadyurl.com
17:10:43 <GreyKnight> Fiora: this was brilliant http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/20186536921/
17:12:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
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17:22:10 <Gregor> Awwww, didn't know the creepy URL was so unreliable :(
17:28:57 <Gregor> travis-ci.org is pretty nifty, but also makes me go, “and what do they get out of this?”
17:29:22 <elliott> Gregor: they have sponsors
17:29:29 <elliott> and some kind of paid thing
17:29:56 <elliott> https://love.travis-ci.org/sponsors http://about.travis-ci.org/docs/user/travis-pro/
17:31:10 <Gregor> Is running free CI for any idiot on github sufficient advertisement to be worth it for the pro users it attracts, I wonder?
17:31:30 <Gregor> (As per sponsors... that's nice and all, but sponsors is not a business model.)
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17:31:41 <elliott> didn't say it was a business model
17:31:51 <elliott> though it is a better one than many have
17:32:28 <Gregor> Well sure, lots of Internet businesses crop up with no real money source, then “mysteriously” vanish when their venture capital runs dry.
17:32:38 <elliott> Gregor: well, "new random hosted CI thing" isn't a very compelling sell since I believe there's already a ton of them
17:33:15 <elliott> "new random hosted CI thing that has a massively popular free version that you can check out and has GitHub integration" seems like a pretty good way to get customers
17:34:01 <elliott> (github's integration is cool -- pull requests get their builds automatically checked an dstuff)
17:49:46 <GreyKnight> ais523: oh, also, did you see my comment a while back about the Feather "root object"?
17:50:57 <GreyKnight> you'd given this snippet: [ atomCompare | [ callCC | [ programText | [ IO | ( ( callCC ( <initial root object> ) ) <bootstrap the parser> ) ] ] ] ]
17:52:38 <GreyKnight> what if we pass atomCompare, callCC, and IO as members of the root object, and then the initial program can just be a function [ root-object | <...> ]
17:52:55 <GreyKnight> makes it a bit more readable (** suppressed laughter **)
17:59:10 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:02:12 <GreyKnight> hm how do I identify a Church numeral in order to print its value, I should probably know this
18:02:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:02:40 <GreyKnight> something ridiculously prodigal no doubt ;-)
18:04:05 -!- ais523 has quit.
18:12:22 <fizzie> "the many electons emmitted from the hot filament were attracted to the daughter, and eagerly agrees to rent the room" <3 fungot (and I suppose Wikipedia Talk namespace too)
18:12:23 <fungot> fizzie: i have moved the section about international relations. the full title is " kokin wakashū" and then freely use " kokinshū" is often subject to debate.
18:14:27 <GreyKnight> fungot: I think we should have a disambiguation page at [[Ireland]], what do you think?
18:14:28 <fungot> GreyKnight: 5) the fox bio doesn't show him working for the studios wrote that lame description of jesse james hollywood's capture.
18:15:15 <fizzie> It's Talk: 'cause I hoped that would be more conversation-like than the main namespace.
18:16:07 <GreyKnight> fizzie: it is also where the main soap operas take place so I love you if you are the one who implemented this style!
18:16:40 <elliott> are there fungot styles fizzie did not implement
18:16:40 <fungot> elliott: o'er the fnord steep, 4 july 2008 ( utc) ( forgot to sign in) loving this. he was a captain during the baluchistan. however, i can't speak for him, he
18:17:10 <fungot> GreyKnight: i don't know which article to merge into the democratic party? free socialist 12:57, 9 october 2008 ( utc)/span/small!-- template:unsigned !--autosigned by sinebot-- ( nevermind, it's under gang of four allowed deng to fnord
18:17:18 <elliott> looks like it did not manage to use them correctly
18:17:41 <GreyKnight> hm looks like some HTML leaked in there too
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18:18:17 <GreyKnight> elliott, was it you who came up with the idea of using a map for Feather input?
18:18:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
18:18:43 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
18:19:50 <GreyKnight> okay; it was a good idea so I am going to credit-slash-blame you once I manage to get it implemented
18:21:01 <fungot> FireFly: based on a very special case of 3d in msw logo works in three fnord 2d is, in essence... you think the macro idea is the same
18:21:34 -!- carado has joined.
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18:27:07 <Taneb> 'A "brony" is the term used to describe the adult fans of the My Little Pony game and of the TV show of the same title.' -- BBC News Website
18:31:25 <fizzie> elliott: YouTube came from... asiekierka?
18:31:48 <fizzie> asiekierka: It wasn't you? It was someone.
18:32:06 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20629245
18:32:11 <fizzie> asiekierka: Someone sent me the fungot style file for YouTube.
18:32:33 <fungot> GreyKnight: what hardware os? i just want to grasp some concepts like continuations, exceptions, flows down into at all times
18:37:32 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Taneb|Away.
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18:37:56 <GreyKnight> fungot: everybody loves them some continuations
18:37:57 <fungot> GreyKnight: i second that dare. nosfe's scary. if i would send the game the same way
18:48:22 <zzo38> How recent of IRC logs of fungot style file do they use?
18:48:49 <elliott> fizzie: It was asiekierka.
18:49:00 <elliott> I hear it was done with copy-and-paste, not web scraping.
18:50:28 <asiekierka> elliott: IIRC i web scraped the two most popular video
18:50:35 <asiekierka> and then ran a few sed commands to get the result
18:50:47 <asiekierka> or maybe i just copy-pasted the two most popular videos and sedded them
18:52:34 <elliott> they have to be signed in triplicate
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19:04:47 <Gregor> Bork bork bork asiekierka
19:05:06 <hagb4rd> omg.. jesus was a mushroom!
19:05:39 <hagb4rd> do you know john allegro? he wrote this fascinating book about the origins of religion
19:05:43 -!- sebbu has joined.
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19:07:41 <hagb4rd> http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.socialgo.com%2Fcache%2F246062%2Fassets%2Ffiles%2F4e9428f9e8f92-246062-JohnAllegroTheSacredMushroomAndTheCross.pdf&ei=6-zAUKbHEseftAb5pYFw&usg=AFQjCNEzOHzyYXWsaqDcH67LpuUqi4CU7Q&sig2=VcvFk51BCxrKOKoe8MBqDA
19:10:20 <hagb4rd> sorry.. this one seems not to work
19:11:17 <hagb4rd> i only have a german version here.. but i'm sure you'll be able to find it your prefered language around the web ;)
19:12:04 <hagb4rd> jesus is the main topic of this channel isn't it?
19:12:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:13:53 -!- Taneb|Away has changed nick to Taneb.
19:14:25 <oklofok> hail the mighty penis in the sky
19:15:07 <oklofok> that was a direct link to an english pdf :P
19:15:31 <hagb4rd> i had some trouble opening it
19:17:09 <zzo38> How to pick the lock of a "PERFECT MICRO" floppy disk box?
19:28:00 <olsner> there ought to be a tool called nosepick
19:28:23 <olsner> sort of a spoon, I guess
19:29:48 <FireFly> It's a bit worrying that fungot wants to grasp continuations
19:29:49 <fungot> FireFly: here's why you should have said something disturbing :)
19:30:35 <Taneb> FireFly, now fungot's smiling and it's all your fault for not saying something disturbing
19:30:36 <fungot> Taneb: ugh... so i'm trying a brainfuck only quine first place, would i be?
19:31:54 <FireFly> fungot: luckily you have a built-in brainfuck interpreter to try it out in
19:31:55 <fungot> FireFly: setting up scsh ( fnord) ( eq? x ' ( 1 ( 7 9 8 10)? please say " a continuation is
19:32:27 <olsner> there fungot goes again wanting someone to teach them about continuations
19:32:28 <fungot> olsner: to evaluate the previous s-expression and send it to /dev/ null
19:33:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:33:55 <FireFly> fungot's aware that he just sent an s-expression?
19:33:56 <fungot> FireFly: ( and i can't rename it on the floor, it was " wanted pages"), then
19:34:32 <olsner> does befunge have s-expressions?
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19:58:09 <fungot> GreyKnight: it's just an anus.' and stops. egh. i need to know it
19:58:28 <Gregor> It's just an anus, GreyKnight!
19:58:44 <GreyKnight> This is not what I wanted. I wanted the opposite of this.
19:59:04 <Bike> an anus that doesn't stop? are you sure?
19:59:25 <fungot> GreyKnight: then translate the lets into lambdas function applications instead of lets? i suspect not
20:01:43 <Fiora> GreyKnight: thanks, glad you liked that post
20:02:36 <GreyKnight> Especially when he lines up all the knights, it's hilarious
20:03:02 <Fiora> He has a few other variations where he does it with bishops or similar
20:03:19 <Fiora> nakamura is really totally amazing
20:04:08 <GreyKnight> Knights were the best I think, because of their loose capturing net
20:04:22 <Fiora> yeah, and being able to do that checkmate so quickly is amazing
20:04:31 <GreyKnight> But he is all "kekekeke knight rush" :-D
20:04:36 <Fiora> I mean, he's practiced it, but, it's sooo easy to accidentally stalemate someone in a knight checkmate
20:06:05 <GreyKnight> I can accidentally stalemate even playing at normal speed ._.
20:06:07 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:06:28 <Fiora> I'm pretty terribly out of practice
20:06:54 <Fiora> I used to play like 5 minute games online though, it was fun
20:06:56 -!- Vorpal has joined.
20:08:32 <GreyKnight> It's a game, like snakes and ladders, except different
20:09:54 <Bike> i can never remember how the horsey guys move.
20:10:54 <GreyKnight> I saw an esoteric ("the other kind") version of chess once, I wonder if I can come up with our kind of esoteric chess :>
20:10:54 * GreyKnight leaps across a few squares to demonstrate to Bike
20:11:15 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:11:23 <Bike> agh shit, you sunk my battleship, right?
20:11:26 <Fiora> I wonder how often people shove their chess variants into chess computers to see how it affects strategy and stuff
20:11:32 <Fiora> like by modifying move generation
20:11:36 <elliott> we already made a chess variant
20:11:47 <elliott> well it was continuous chess
20:12:36 <Bike> less excitingly, you could probably make an esolang based on move notation
20:12:57 <Fiora> how about making an esolang based on solving a chess puzzle on an NxN board?
20:13:05 <Fiora> generalized chess is EXPTIME
20:13:07 <GreyKnight> Continuous as in non-grid-based positioning?
20:13:20 <Bike> Fiora: like n-queens or something?
20:16:36 <Fiora> Bike: like, NxN chess board with arbitrary pieces, solve for mate
20:16:46 <Fiora> or the decision problem, "is a forced mate possible"?
20:16:51 <Fiora> EXPTIME-complete apparently
20:19:10 <GreyKnight> I am thinking about an infinite chessboard with the ability to "paint" squares as you land on them
20:19:54 <Fiora> that sounds, um.... kind of like Angels and Demons for some reason
20:20:16 <Fiora> or whatever that puzzle is called, I don't remember...
20:20:30 <GreyKnight> For a given initial arrangement of pieces and initial board colouring, this might be TC
20:20:31 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_problem right
20:21:00 <Fiora> Yeah... I think that sounds TC...
20:21:32 <Bike> where did conway get all the money for these prizes
20:22:32 <Bike> oh, $100 isn't much, i guess
20:22:46 <Bike> i should really get winning ways sometime.
20:24:25 <tswett> I got a receipt from an oil change place that said, if I remember correctly, "Team: T:ppater B:ppater S:ppater M:ppater"
20:24:29 <Fiora> now I'm tempted to go back and dive through the chess programming wiki again <_<;
20:24:41 <tswett> Anyone have any idea what that means?
20:24:54 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:25:30 <olsner> tuesday, briday, sunday, monday
20:25:39 <olsner> poor ppater is always the team
20:26:51 <hagb4rd> there should be an addtional day between saturday and sunday *sigh
20:27:24 <olsner> reminds me of the short film about an extra integer existing between three and four
20:29:15 <GreyKnight> olsner: I've never seen that, but have heard similar gags before
20:29:56 <tswett> elliott: you wouldn't happen to have any information about continuous chess, would you?
20:30:30 <elliott> he will remember it better than me
20:30:32 <hagb4rd> i would add two integers..12 would do a better base
20:31:17 <GreyKnight> tswett, if you see him before I do, I would also like info!
20:31:48 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:33:03 <fizzie> I bought this "adapter from 2x(3.5mm stereo) headphones+mic to 3.5mm four-pole headset connector" cable, and it didn't work; I just multimetered it, and it's just a splitter that has two female 4-pole 3.5mm connectors, and a direct mapping from each ring (of both) into the corresponding ring of the 4-pole male.
20:33:06 <tswett> Well, there's this: http://www.chessvariants.org/other.dir/continuouschess.html
20:33:17 <tswett> But that's not as continuous as I was hoping.
20:34:14 <olsner> GreyKnight: the usual... scientist has revolutionary idea, scientist considered crazy, the movie ends on a mysterious note with his shrink seeing the same thing (maybe it's real!!)
20:34:44 <olsner> unfortunately it only works when applied to ideas that you can pretend to believe in
20:35:22 <GreyKnight> I wonder about applying the ideas behind quantum football to chess
20:36:26 <GreyKnight> Both kings are spread out across the whole board. Goal is to spike the enemy king's wavefunction into a threatened square of one of your pieces
20:38:14 <tswett> Oh fudge. I just clicked on a link from the Wikipedia article "Differential game" and it led me to an article co-written by the head of my university's math department.
20:38:25 <Bike> GreyKnight: how spiked does it need to be?
20:39:16 <GreyKnight> I don't know! What is the criterion in quantum football?
20:40:51 <kmc> i just got back from a tour of the fourth oldest nuclear reactor in the USA
20:41:20 <Bike> hm. which one is that?
20:41:33 <GreyKnight> Hm maybe we want probability 63/64 on the square. Or can we sum across all threatened squares actually?
20:44:24 <zzo38> I know of many chess variant
20:48:33 <olsner> Taneb: don't you want to change your nick to Tneb? I think it would be better somehow
20:48:55 <Taneb> olsner, I'd rather have Tanb, for etymological reasons
20:49:09 <olsner> I thought about that, but it's not as good
20:49:56 <Taneb> That's not your e!
20:50:06 <Taneb> That's my great-grandfather's e!
20:50:10 <olsner> I think the e is required in Ngevd
20:50:12 <Taneb> Which he got from his father!
20:50:17 <Taneb> Which he got from his mother!
20:50:21 <Taneb> Who was called Elliott!
20:50:40 <Taneb> (mildly misleading, but true)
20:53:51 <olsner> the e is somehow essential to make the initial ŋ sound
21:05:36 <kmc> Bike: MIT Nuclear Research Reactor
21:07:12 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:08:41 <kmc> one of only a few reactors that still uses highly enriched uranium
21:09:08 <kmc> they describe their fuel as "self-protecting", which means that it would be extremely difficult to steal it without killing yourself immediately
21:09:34 <elliott> I did not realise MIT had a nuclear reactor
21:09:38 <elliott> slightly more scared of them now
21:10:17 <Bike> i recently found out that one of the older reactors (used for the Manhattan Project) is relatively near me, so i thought that might have been it for some reason
21:10:24 <kmc> not just any reactor, a super old reactor that uses HEU, *and* they let undergrads control it!
21:10:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:11:47 <Taneb> The world's first commercial nuclear power plant is in the next county over from here
21:12:20 <oerjan> <GreyKnight> hm how do I identify a Church numeral in order to print its value, I should probably know this
21:12:37 <oerjan> i thought i did that a while ago.
21:12:40 <kmc> Bike: which reactor is that?
21:13:03 <oerjan> but for which esolang...
21:13:39 <Bike> kmc: the B reactor at "Site W"
21:13:58 <GreyKnight> Answer I came up with was "have the interpreter evaluate it with args add1 and 0, then print the result
21:14:01 <Bike> oh, apparently that was the first full scale reactor
21:14:18 <oerjan> oh it was http://esolangs.org/wiki/Real_Fast_Nora%27s_Hair_Salon_3:_Shear_Disaster_Download
21:14:35 <oerjan> GreyKnight: well yeah that was about what i did
21:14:40 <GreyKnight> That will at least give the right answer for Church numerals and mumblesomething for other functions
21:14:51 <Taneb> One of my better esolangs
21:15:01 <GreyKnight> Okay cool, if I am like oerjan I am probably correct :-)
21:16:02 <kmc> Bike: Hanford site?
21:16:38 <Bike> i've never been there. aaaand i don't think they exactly offer tours
21:16:39 <kmc> those old manhattan project facilities are all super contaminated
21:16:49 <kmc> because they didn't really give a shit about safety or the environment back then
21:16:58 <Bike> did they even know how to give a shit about it yet?
21:17:18 <kmc> the MIT reactor is almost as old (well, about 10 years younger) but is in the middle of a dense metropolitan area and so i guess they had to be more careful
21:17:18 <Bike> like that would have been before they did those "set off a nuke, make soldiers sit nearby, see if they throw up" experiments
21:17:45 <Bike> i'm imagining an mit building constructed entirely out of lead
21:18:36 <GreyKnight> Taneb: Church numerals as de Bruijn indices?!? You're a madman!
21:18:51 <Taneb> Hey, I just write the esolang
21:18:55 <kmc> it is pretty boring looking on the outside
21:18:55 <Taneb> I don't have to use it
21:18:56 <kmc> http://www.wgbh.org/imageassets/0321reactor.jpg
21:19:18 <Taneb> It was meant to be BIT-sans-brackets
21:19:21 <Bike> it looks like a water tower...
21:19:27 <Bike> which is probably what they modeled it after
21:20:37 <kmc> one of the things they use it for is radiation therapy for cancer
21:20:43 <kmc> they produce isotopes for medical use
21:20:51 <kmc> but they also actually perform experimental therapies at the reactor
21:21:05 <Bike> they move patients to a reactor?
21:21:19 <kmc> yeah for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_neutron_capture_therapy
21:21:32 <elliott> that dude in the pic looks like a cyborg
21:21:32 <kmc> they give you a drug with a bunch of boron in it, that preferentially binds to cancer cells
21:21:43 <kmc> then they take you to the reactor and put your head right up against the core and open a little window
21:21:48 <kmc> and you get mucho neutrons in the brain
21:21:49 <elliott> getting their brain scanned with science and radiation
21:21:54 <kmc> and they make the boron radioactive
21:22:01 <elliott> pretty sure this is how science works??
21:22:18 <kmc> this is one of those "well, he already *has* cancer" type of therapies
21:22:20 <elliott> i do like the idea of just shoving people into a nuclear reactor as treatment
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21:22:35 <Taneb> elliott, you're thinking of magix
21:22:41 <elliott> "well, we destroyed the cancer. also everything else"
21:22:45 <Bike> radiotherapy always makes me remember what i've read from Goiânia now
21:22:50 <Bike> so i'm unreasonably spooked by it
21:23:30 <GreyKnight> "Just fall into a nuclear reactor and hope for the best"
21:24:20 <Bike> i wonder if you get free radiotherapy if you work as a nuke diver
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21:27:06 <oerjan> <GreyKnight> That will at least give the right answer for Church numerals and mumblesomething for other functions <-- my implementation (the churchToInt function in that page) does what i could to make sure it errors out on anything not a church numeral, by making anything that shouldn't pass on an annotated number value clear it to Nothing.
21:28:42 <oerjan> oh and by using v as the actual combinator used when you try to use a number as a function, this makes it useless for everything functional.
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21:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> back in the 80s they used the particle accelerator at lawrence berkeley labs for cancer treatment
21:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> it involved timing particle decays so they dumped all the energy in the tumour
21:31:41 <GreyKnight> oerjan: my Haskell is not great but I will try to understand your approach :-)
21:32:33 <Phantom_Hoover> markus hess also tampered with the control computers at some point, which is why i know that
21:32:43 <GreyKnight> Phantom_Hoover: oh, tswett and myself want to know about continuous chess?
21:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> right uh the gist of it is that for a board you have [0,8]^2
21:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> and your pieces are a collection of disjoint subsets of that
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21:35:31 <Phantom_Hoover> b) the displacement of the centroid of the piece must correspond to a legal chess move for that piece
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21:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (a 'move' is a function f that satisfies these properties, also)
21:36:53 <Phantom_Hoover> c) for all x in the piece being moved, there may not be any other piece along the line from x to f(x)
21:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> the exceptions to c) are that knight may move through other piece of your colour
21:37:38 <Phantom_Hoover> and that you can move through opposing piece if there is some other piece being moved to its location
21:38:45 <Bike> wait, is time continuous too?
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21:39:33 <Phantom_Hoover> still better than the other crap being proposed during the chess variant fad
21:39:45 <elliott> Bike: we started to make time continuous
21:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, you capture opposing piece if you map your piece onto it
21:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> the second exception to c) is basically "you can move through opposing piece that you've captured"
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21:40:58 <GreyKnight> Exactly onto it? Do all pieces have the same measure?
21:41:28 <oklofok> i wonder if there's even alternating games with continuous time in math
21:41:32 <oklofok> because that sounds insane
21:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> but the measure of a captured piece obviously decreases
21:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> additional challenges: incorporate castling and promotion into this
21:42:51 <Bike> "Dynamic noncooperative game theory" hm yes this sounds reasonable
21:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> thompson's lamp at least only switches countably many times
21:43:37 <elliott> I meant if you made it continuous-time
21:43:41 <elliott> that is one way you could do it
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21:44:30 <greyooze> Phantom_Hoover: erm as I was saying:
21:44:38 <greyooze> do all pieces have the same measure?
21:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> but the measure of a captured piece obviously decreases
21:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> additional challenges: incorporate castling and promotion into this
21:44:51 <elliott> 21:41:11 <Phantom_Hoover> initially, yes
21:45:10 <greyooze> oh so you can capture *part* of a piece, interesting
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21:45:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i think i actually had it so knight can move through any piece whatsoever, not just friendly
21:47:25 <GreyKnight> could you describe again the rule about moving through an enemy piece, not sure I got that bit
21:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> you can't move through enemy piece unless you're also capturing it in the same move
21:49:04 <GreyKnight> ah, so your destination has to partly overlap the enemy piece in question
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21:50:56 <GreyKnight> is check/mate the obvious extension, or anything fancy about it?
21:51:46 <GreyKnight> (obvious extension being "as long as part of the king would escape the threatened capture you're fine, otherwise you're in check")
21:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the obvious extension, which i'm fairly sure also makes it undecidable to work out who's won a general match
21:52:07 <GreyKnight> (I write it explicitly as it may not be as obvious as I thought)
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21:53:52 <GreyKnight> can a single piece split into N disjoint parts (as long as total measure is preserved)? The wording was a bit unclear
21:54:37 <Phantom_Hoover> the 'disjoint subsets' bit just means you can't have pieces overlapping
21:54:37 <Bike> no nonmeasurable pieces, huh. sad
21:54:57 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well everything is undecidable
21:55:01 <elliott> since the functions can be uncomputable
21:55:42 <GreyKnight> I don't know how we would even *start* a match never mind finish one ;-)
21:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, even if you restrict it to computable functions though
21:58:22 <oerjan> might restrict to polygonal pieces
21:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, me and oko played like 2 matches with a 3x3 board and just kings in opposite corners once
21:58:30 <oerjan> (what do you mean, BORING?)
22:00:41 <oklofok> convex polygons would still give you a weird amoeba chess
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22:02:23 <oklofok> i guess strategies in continuous games are basically solutions to first order differential equations
22:02:44 <oklofok> because what you do next (your derivative) depends on the other guy's state
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23:59:37 <GreyKnight> does fungot's funge code go all the way up to handling the IRC protocol, or is there a separate IRC layer that just passes lines down/up?
23:59:37 <fungot> GreyKnight: it had the usual arithmetic operators and all!
00:01:04 <oerjan> i vaguely seem to recall it uses the actual socket fingerprint for funge-98
00:02:09 <Gregor> Befunge is easily the best general-purpose programming language.
00:02:09 <oerjan> i haven't read the code myself, mind you
00:02:39 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
00:03:13 <oerjan> yeah the "KCOS" must be it
00:03:59 <elliott> GreyKnight: it handles the sockets, even
00:04:47 <GreyKnight> detroppus ton KCOS, I like this language ;-)
00:05:45 <oerjan> GreyKnight: line 105 is also pretty clear
00:06:53 <GreyKnight> line 153 there has a fnord and a big triangle :-)
00:06:58 <GreyKnight> whoever wrote that needs either a medal or to be committed
00:07:02 <FireFly> that's a 0gnirts or whatever they're called
00:07:49 <elliott> GreyKnight: ("whoever wrote that" is always fizzie)
00:09:36 <FireFly> I like the rather literal "channels" that move the IP about
00:09:40 <oerjan> GreyKnight: i think the fnord may be part of fungot's autobabbling code, it has certain very common words (actually mostly punctuation and smileys) built into the code
00:09:41 <fungot> oerjan: say a list of the commands?
00:10:00 <oerjan> interestingly, that triggers a bug in the darwin style
00:10:05 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
00:10:13 <oerjan> fungot: please demonstrate
00:10:13 <fungot> oerjan: proceeding northward,/ quantity on an equal number :) times to/ fnord
00:10:31 <fungot> FireFly: i am now going to captain fitz-roy, october, 12th and 13th 1867.
00:11:20 <FireFly> fungot: say hi to him from me
00:11:20 <fungot> FireFly: table 4.24.4. illegitimate union: 52: 0.
00:13:06 <oerjan> that ":)" should actually be "of" and "/" is probably also wrong, maybe "the"
00:13:58 -!- augur has joined.
00:13:59 <oerjan> basically because darwin didn't actually use smileys or that other punctuation, some tables got indexed wrong
00:14:12 <oerjan> is my vague understanding
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00:18:52 <oerjan> GreyKnight: I WAS TALKING TO YOU
00:19:36 <GreyKnight> last was <GreyKnight> yeah, the triangle seems to be applying the punctuation/smilies
00:19:51 <FireFly> Don't you DARE accidentally lose connection when I'm talking to you!
00:20:06 <oerjan> <GreyKnight> fizzie wrote ALL the programs
00:21:01 <oerjan> GreyKnight: logs are in the topic :P
00:21:16 <FireFly> In a less shady URL than before
00:21:45 <GreyKnight> I was also wondering why the fnord is split into two strings
00:21:57 <FireFly> probably to allow the IP to travel between the parts
00:22:23 <oerjan> hm yes there's a tall path there
00:23:46 <FireFly> what's the definition of g?
00:24:15 <FireFly> pop x and y, then grab (x,y) in fungespace and push the value to the stack, or something?
00:25:42 <oerjan> punctuation is handled specially because it has different spacing
00:26:56 <FireFly> I don't get how something enters the triangle though
00:27:23 <oerjan> i think j is a command that skips a specific distance ahead
00:29:16 <FireFly> I like how there's just comments sprinkled around the code
00:30:03 <oerjan> :98 +`#v_ probably tests if the value is less than 17, so that the triangle is only used for values less than that
00:31:29 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
00:32:08 <HackEgo> 55) <Sgeo> What else is there to vim besides editing commands?
00:32:12 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ delquotee \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping
00:32:27 <HackEgo> 27) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 79) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 80) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 87) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 88) <ais523> theory:
00:32:50 -!- ifnspifn has joined.
00:33:08 <oerjan> i'm not sure ais523 has spent any significant time in #haskell
00:33:21 <Arc_Koen> hey oerjan can you help me simplify (a-x)(b-x)...(z-x)?
00:33:44 <FireFly> isn't that rather simplified already?
00:34:14 <HackEgo> 60) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
00:34:27 <GreyKnight> vim is a terrible editor, it doesn't even come with its own builtin psychoanalyst!
00:35:13 <HackEgo> 88) <ais523> theory: some amused deity is making the laws of physics up as they go along
00:35:23 <HackEgo> Can't exec "`run": No such file or directory at /hackenv/bin/@ line 2. \ `ls:
00:36:50 <oerjan> `@ FireFly echo That's not how `@ works
00:36:53 <HackEgo> FireFly: That's not how `@ works
00:38:03 <FireFly> `@ oerjan I just naively guessed based on the little I know about Lambdabot's @@
00:38:05 <HackEgo> Can't exec "I": No such file or directory at /hackenv/bin/@ line 2. \ oerjan:
00:39:27 <FireFly> I have two in front of my eyes at the moment
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00:40:52 <FireFly> I'm rather enjoying them; they simplify my life a great deal
00:41:28 <Arc_Koen> are you talking about those inside?
00:41:53 <oerjan> nah i'm sure those only complicate life
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00:43:38 <Arc_Koen> so I just started watching the walking dead and I have this weird feeling
00:44:09 <Arc_Koen> well it was only the first episode
00:44:47 <Arc_Koen> and so far it isn't full of the stereotypes you see in *every* zombie film
00:45:06 <Arc_Koen> well apart from the fact that the streets are full of zombies but that's kind of the idea
00:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> the `word on the street' is that it fairly quickly degenerates into a cavalcade of "which character will become an asshole for the sole purpose of creating a problem for this episode?!"
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00:45:31 <Arc_Koen> well there aren't so many characters yet
00:45:59 <Phantom_Hoover> also there was something about the showrunner firing the other writers and driving the programme off a cliff at the start of the second season
00:46:22 <Arc_Koen> at the same time it has a proper dose of suspense and stuff, and at the same time it isn't really like a "horror movie"
00:47:16 <Arc_Koen> aaaanyway I'll watch a second episode before I make my opinion
00:47:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i've heard nothing but praise for the game though, fwiw
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01:07:44 <elliott> who changed youtube behind my back
01:08:15 <shachaf> elliott: They had a big discussion/vote in the comments section of every video!
01:08:19 <shachaf> MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE PARTICIPATED
01:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> google appears to have looked at facebook's ui and said "i want some of that"
01:17:44 <kmc> apparently los angeles has this form of weather where it rains and also the framerate gets really bad
01:18:12 <shachaf> kmc: Should I get a FREE MEGABUS TICKET to Los Angeles?
01:19:47 <kmc> oh yeah megabus is running in CA again
01:20:14 <shachaf> I could also get a FREE MEGABUS TICKET NYC <-> BOS
01:20:17 <shachaf> Or apparently anywhere else.
01:20:28 <kmc> promotion code TRYMEGABUS
01:20:32 <kmc> jan 9 to feb 28
01:20:40 <elliott> kmc: can you explain this I,I thing shachaf does to me
01:20:50 <kmc> it means "i have no point, i just like saying"
01:21:00 <kmc> used to prefix a statement which is not meant to be entirely serious
01:21:02 <kmc> or it's an owl face
01:21:16 <kmc> the etymology is that phrase which has the form "i ..., i ..."
01:21:28 <kmc> i, even i, can play dead
01:21:54 <kmc> "why was h afraid of i"
01:22:06 <elliott> kmc: that is a really fucking dumb etymology
01:22:18 <kmc> a fair point
01:22:26 <kmc> but have you considered eating a dick instead
01:25:58 <shachaf> It's as much of a pun as 7 8 9
01:27:10 <oerjan> or at least a beta laugh
01:31:15 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
01:31:37 <shachaf> `run while true; do quote; done | grep oerjan | head -n1
01:32:10 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or
01:32:38 <shachaf> `run while true; do bin/quote; done | grep oerjan | head -n1
01:33:11 <HackEgo> nl: quotes: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: bin/quote:
01:33:23 <HackEgo> 523) <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sacrificing the animals, then I'm going to bed.
01:33:40 <shachaf> `run for i in 1 2; do quote; done
01:33:44 <HackEgo> 145) <alise> "Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo." <cpressey> alise: I <cpressey> I was going to say something then your last line floored me \ 410) <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse.
01:34:13 <shachaf> `run for i in `seq 1 2`; do quote; done
01:34:16 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 687) <Gregor> elliott: Back in my day, I didn't have to walk with a cane, but I couldn't shake it at kids on my lawn either!
01:35:03 <shachaf> `run for i in `seq 1 100`; do quote; done | grep oerjan | head -n1
01:35:31 <HackEgo> 20) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste
01:35:57 <shachaf> `run while true; do quote; done | grep oerjan | head -n1
01:36:30 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or
01:36:39 <oerjan> `run quote oerjan | shuffle | head -n1
01:36:42 <HackEgo> bash: shuffle: command not found
01:36:48 <oerjan> `run quote oerjan | shuf | head -n1
01:36:51 <HackEgo> 702) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
01:36:57 <shachaf> Why is it giving that error?
01:37:04 <kmc> while true; do shuffle; sleep 86400; done
01:37:32 <oerjan> `run while true; do quote; done
01:37:36 <HackEgo> 304) <oklofok> destroying a local copy of the world is kind of like raping a robochick with a shovel tho \ 585) <oklopol> but i guess (x + y)^n = (x^2 + 2xy + y^2)(x^2 + 2xy + y^2)...(x^2 + 2xy + y^2) if n is even, (x + y)^n = (x^2 + 2xy + y^2)(x^2 + 2xy + y^2)...(x^2 + 2xy + y^2)(x + y) is as good a fundamental theorem as any \ 300) <oklopol> i understand that people had to use twitter and facebook before irc was
01:37:54 <oerjan> `run while true; do quote; done | grep oerjan
01:38:00 <kmc> fungot: do you shuffle?
01:38:00 <fungot> kmc: :( floreat fnord."
01:38:02 <HackEgo> *poof* <oklofok> destroying a local copy of the world is kind of like raping a robochick with a shovel tho
01:38:03 <elliott> piggybacking the quote game on the for loops
01:38:15 <HackEgo> 762) <Taneb> the killers dancer in my c***
01:38:23 <HackEgo> 324) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
01:38:26 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or directory \ bash: /hackenv/bin/quote: No such file or
01:38:27 <elliott> kmc: you have to do five btw
01:38:44 <HackEgo> 280) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
01:38:48 <HackEgo> 94) <Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
01:38:53 <HackEgo> 785) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
01:39:08 <shachaf> <kmc> 20 4 * * * /usr/bin/smoke weed
01:39:19 <shachaf> I guess it would be 20 16 in practice
01:39:23 <shachaf> Though that's not raelly specified.
01:40:56 <kmc> both are acceptable
01:41:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
01:41:37 <elliott> kmc: come on you have to come to a decision
01:41:56 <kmc> no binary named `smoke` in all of debian!
01:41:58 <kmc> elliott: o rly
01:42:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes
01:42:35 <kmc> `delquote 762
01:42:39 <HackEgo> *poof* <Taneb> the killers dancer in my c***
01:42:51 <kmc> pour one out for 762
01:43:13 <elliott> that one was pretty funny at the time but admittedly it loses something without context
01:43:57 <HackEgo> 207) [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
01:44:00 <HackEgo> 26) <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
01:44:45 <HackEgo> 762) <Taneb> hang on I have bright idea <Taneb> navajo to f me 1 in 3 people
01:44:48 <HackEgo> 747) <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
01:44:50 <HackEgo> 647) <olsner> characters in tv series should learn to check the timestamp before they get their hopes up... *no chance* this will work at 10 minutes into the episode
01:44:52 <HackEgo> 357) <Sgeo> I hope type inference isn't difficult
01:46:03 <kmc> WINE is sort of like a dancing bear
01:46:34 * oerjan thinks kmc may have had too much
01:46:48 <kmc> the marvel is not that the bear dances well, but that he dances at all
01:48:43 <kmc> bbl, playing grand theft auto as long as i hit enter at just the right time
01:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> although it is annoying when nobody will give you tips on bear dancing because you pirated the bear this analogy is falling apart rapidly
01:49:24 <elliott> you wouldn't download a bear?
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02:09:48 <Gregor> <elliott> you wouldn't download a bear? // what kind of bear are we talking about
02:10:25 <Gregor> Insufficient disambiguation.
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02:15:27 <oerjan> @quote edwardk unsafeCoerce
02:15:27 <lambdabot> edwardk says: this breaks my previous record of 6 unsafeCoerce's in a line
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02:38:10 <oerjan> !malbolge http://matthias-ernst.eu/malbolge/quine.mb
02:38:16 <EgoBot> bt&A@?>=<;49876543210/.-,+*)('&%$#"!~}|<zyxwvutsrU0B{Ql,wihgfedcoa`_B]\UyYXWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA@]>=<;k9876543Q10p.o,+*)('&%$#"!~}vuz]xwvutsrkpSnmlkjihgfeH]baZ_XWV[ZSXW:9TSRQJONMLEJCHGFED'&A@?>7<}{{yywwuussqqoommkki'~g$#"y~a|{zyxwvutsVkpohmfkjihafedGFa`_^]\>><<::8866442200..,HGF?('BA@?>=<;:9876543,10/.o,+*)('&%e#"!b}v{zyxwvotslqponQlejihgJ_dcba`CX]\[ZY<QVUNSL5PONMLE.IHA@ED'BA#?>=~;:z276w43s10/p-,l$)(i&%e#"!b}|^tyx[vutVrqTonmOkjMKgfe^cFa`_X]\?Z<RWVU8SRKJON1LKDIHG*
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03:27:44 <kmc> shachaf: did you know there's a PC BIOS command to switch to protected mode?
03:28:15 <kmc> INT 15h, AH = 89h
03:28:50 <shachaf> "There is no BIOS service to return to real mode." :-(
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04:02:54 <tswett> I like the idea of time-continuous chess.
04:12:25 <zzo38> I don't know how to play (or how to make) time-continuous chess.
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04:16:11 <Gregor> I wonder if continuity in that dimension, assuming that true continuity exists for the sake of argument, could render chess unsolvable.
04:16:46 <kmc> would you still have discrete player turns?
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04:20:26 <Bike> a friend suggests that continuous Go may make more sense.
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04:52:13 <zzo38> So, how do you make continuous Go?
04:52:24 <Bike> http://www.di.fc.ul.pt/~jpn/gv/boards.htm
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05:08:39 <zzo38> But can it be made with time continuous too?
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05:58:28 <Sgeo|web> elliott: Fiora monqy... unless you saw it already
06:16:51 <Fiora> caliborn is creepy ;-;
06:17:46 <Sgeo|web> You did not realize this before?
06:20:25 <coppro> he's definitely my favourite character recently
06:20:25 <Fiora> I realized it before
06:20:28 <Fiora> he is just even more creepy
06:20:43 <Fiora> the latest log is painful to read almost
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06:21:18 <Fiora> (yet at the same time he's incredibly funny? I don't know how hussie does it)
06:21:27 <coppro> it is funny because creepy is funny
06:21:31 <coppro> if it isn't too creepy
06:21:36 <Fiora> well, cronus wasn't funny really
06:21:57 <Fiora> gosh the whole mess with the welded-down mouse had me in stitches
06:23:24 <Fiora> http://fioraaeterna.tumblr.com/post/36301139742/ the context made it even more hilarious though
06:28:56 <coppro> but not because of him
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06:33:30 <coppro> Fiora: tumblr quote trees are so hard to read :(
06:34:02 <Fiora> was that one really that bad?
06:34:06 <Bike> don't think of it as "hard to read", think of it as "livejournal vintage"! except without any of the interface or readability or sane design
06:36:53 <Fiora> my only real complaint about the quote trees is when they get really really smushed because the quotes are too deep
06:37:13 <Fiora> but I think I've avoided 98% of that by not following people who argue with each other via reblogs? ^^;;
06:37:38 <Bike> it's kind of great to see the text literally smooshed out of the boxes, though.
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06:39:40 <Fiora> there's also that thing where all "likes" to a post show up as likes to the original post
06:40:03 <Fiora> so if Alice reblogs Bob and comments on how wrong Bob is, liking Alice's post likes Bob's post
06:40:34 <Bike> yeah it's pretty obvious that the designers don't really care about anybody using it for mroe than sharing pictures
06:41:51 <coppro> it's pretty damn hilarious really
06:54:52 <Sgeo|web> Hussie once complained about how rebloging lets you change what it said without making it obvious that it's not the original
06:55:39 <Fiora> Yeah, I saw that thing, some people were being real jerkfaces
06:57:00 <Sgeo|web> http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/21131451322/reblog-fraud http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/21132946524/i-reiterate
06:57:14 <Sgeo|web> He wasn't complaing about the people, but about how Tumblr enabled those people
06:57:25 <Fiora> well, that too, yeah
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07:52:53 <Sgeo|web> http://dwcope.freeshell.org/projects/quine/ helpful tutorial.
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08:03:45 <pikhq> Notice: Undefined property: Context::$inselection in /www/af/d/dwcope/php/Beautifier/Core.php on line 170
08:03:50 <pikhq> I found that quite illustrative.
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08:31:19 <fungot> GreyKnight: prof., is not acid or only slightly so, in/ pumiceous and other beds :) a purple colour, hard, fine-grained, thinly stratified, highly porphyritic conglomerates, including many species, a directly opposite nature, and have been subsequently protected by vast superimposed deposits: now this could generally only hold good with heterostyled species.
08:31:56 <GreyKnight> It's a bit early for porphyritic conglomerates
08:32:04 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ delquotee \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping
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08:41:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
08:42:00 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
08:42:12 <fungot> shachaf: something like scheme48 ( upon the general position is a part of these amendments, i can only thank the president-in-office, you did hear me say that we have had in getting information with regard to monetary policy, a factor is
08:44:59 <GreyKnight> Yo dawg, I heard you like Markov chains
08:45:52 <GreyKnight> The president-in-office is making an amendment regarding scheme48?!
08:55:26 <GreyKnight> Not sure how it will affect monetary policy, unless maybe the Americans are moving to a cons cell-based economy?
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09:27:37 <Jafet> They already have con sellers
09:28:32 <shachaf> GreyKnight: Who said anything about Americans?
09:29:31 <GreyKnight> I did, just now. Weren't you listening?!
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09:50:29 <GreyKnight> fungot: take Lord of the Rings for example, there's a lot of truth to be found within its pages. Can anyone honestly tell me that there is no history to be found in Tolkien's work? Just look at the maps in the back of the books, NO ONE can make that up!
09:50:29 <fungot> GreyKnight: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff is actually pretty nice, but sometimes it's necessary to achieve a consensus, for " 3" does not mean radio or remote and snowy rim, like the serrated edge, and it is eta. f
09:53:06 <GreyKnight> fizzie, I don't suppose the stuff we talk to fungot about gets stored for regurgitation?
09:53:06 <fungot> GreyKnight: and it's self-modifying techniques." stop immobilizes and disables you. in these bones, i shall return! by the way, the wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace?
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10:43:28 <fizzie> Gregor: No, except in the sense that it goes into my irc logs and would therefore be used if I were to rebuild the irc style.
10:43:47 <fizzie> Quits and tab completion don't mix.
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10:56:26 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
10:56:32 <fungot> FireFly: from: ericcbmvax!snark.thyrsus.com ( er) date: wed, 16 jul 90 15:06:57 est from:
10:56:44 <fungot> FireFly: would you choose? dos with windows? it's not unix's fault, i was ahead of in the words of the registers ( r0).
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13:45:05 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Loop_without_output
13:45:09 <ais523> does that even count as esoteric?
13:45:19 <ais523> I guess it isn't mainstream, and it's sufficiently useless
13:45:26 <ais523> but it doesn't fit into any of our existing categories
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14:05:33 <Lumpio-> It claims to be "as useful as Brainfuck"
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14:44:03 <AnotherTest> Why doesn't the paradigm "instruction rewriting" exist (as in terminology)?
14:51:43 <FireFly> What'd that be, self-modifying programs?
14:52:36 <AnotherTest> although yes, that terminology is probably not really good
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15:33:00 <elliott> @tell ais523 star651's languages appear to be esoteric mainly by way of being very poor
15:33:38 <AnotherTest> elliott: Is it even a language? I though it was simply a loop which can be eliminated.
15:34:59 <elliott> it is in the "concepts" category
15:35:05 <elliott> so maybe it is meant to be closer to performance art than a language
15:44:00 <Arc_Koen> AnotherTest: well first you'd need to have something called an instruction
15:44:13 <Arc_Koen> in most languages you can define functions or stuff like that
15:44:24 <Arc_Koen> it's not so much "rewriting" as "writing"
15:44:53 <Arc_Koen> and the few keywords for instructions are reserved and can't be rewritten because it would be too obfuscated otherwise
15:46:20 <Arc_Koen> but apparently no one argued against making it (or "self-redefining") a category
15:46:51 <Arc_Koen> I just wanted to make a list of pages that would go in there, before actually creating the page for the category
15:47:36 <Arc_Koen> because apparently pages for categories are not updated every time you add some page to the category, so I think it's best to first add most pages to it then only write the page (and that should update it automatically)
15:48:03 <FireFly> Category:Self-modifying exists already
15:48:28 <AnotherTest> well Self-modifying isn't the same as Self-redefining I think
15:48:44 <Arc_Koen> the point is, rewriting instructions is not the same as rewriting the code itself
15:48:51 <FireFly> Would self-redefining be a higher-level modification?
15:48:52 <elliott> "because apparently pages for categories are not updated every time you add some page to the category" huh?
15:49:16 <Arc_Koen> elliott: well for instance take a page that's currently in "Unimplemented"
15:49:21 <Arc_Koen> write an implementation for it
15:49:27 <Arc_Koen> and then put it in "Implemented" instead
15:49:45 <Arc_Koen> then go to esoteric.org/wiki/Category:Implemented
15:49:56 <Arc_Koen> then go to Category:Unimplemented
15:50:05 <FireFly> Surely you just have to purge the cache of the category for it to change?
15:50:09 <elliott> there will be a slight lag due to the job queue
15:50:16 <elliott> if it doesn't fix itself in a few minutes then that is a bug
15:50:18 <elliott> (but try force-refreshing)
15:50:47 <FireFly> wikiroot/index.php?title=foo:bar&action=purge <-- I think that should help
15:51:16 <elliott> well you shouldn't have to purge it
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16:06:30 <Arc_Koen> elliott: ok take http://esolangs.org/wiki/*brainfuck for instance
16:06:42 <Arc_Koen> it's supposed to be in Category:Implemented
16:07:10 <elliott> maybe you have some broken caching proxy fucking things up
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16:07:59 <Arc_Koen> that's weird I manually empty the cache every day or so
16:08:09 <Arc_Koen> ok let me try with firefow then
16:08:41 <elliott> you shouldn't have to do anything manually to get cached pages renewed when appropriate on Esolang
16:08:51 <elliott> unless you have really overzealous cache settings that don't even check with the server
16:09:59 <elliott> then it's your fault for configuring it that way :P
16:10:18 <Arc_Koen> ok, I can't see it on Category:Implemented but I do see it on http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Implemented&pageuntil=4DL#mw-pages
16:10:29 <Arc_Koen> so that's definitely a problem with me
16:11:12 <elliott> try just shift+f5 / ctrl+f5
16:14:39 <elliott> it's funny because you made a joke about an operating system being bad even though all operating systems are terrible
16:14:58 <elliott> Arc_Koen: maybe just command+r will work
16:15:25 <elliott> or shift click refresh or something
16:15:39 <Arc_Koen> elliott: it's been that way for months and I have everything set on "forget everything everyday" so I don't think it can be solved that easily
16:15:44 <elliott> AnotherTest: probably more than you have? unless someone is hiding something from me they are all pretty terrible
16:16:02 <elliott> Arc_Koen: maybe just try using another browser then :P
16:16:09 <elliott> it sounds weird that this caching would happen though
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16:16:17 <elliott> perhaps there is a problem on the srever-side that doesn't show with most browsers
16:16:25 <AnotherTest> elliott: Well I didn't say they're all terrible...
16:16:47 <elliott> Arc_Koen: I have the server-side caching pretty zealous but it should send all the right HTTP headers so I have no idea
16:17:01 <AnotherTest> Yes, so there is no reason that I should have tried them all (or more than you)
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16:17:35 <AnotherTest> elliott: also, if they're all terrible, it's still possible that some are less terrible
16:17:53 <elliott> well the ones that are less terrible are also the ones that are more useless, which is itself terrible
16:18:27 <Arc_Koen> elliott: hmm, I don't know. Also I noticed sometimes my session is out but on some pages that I visit often it still shows as if I was logged in as Koen
16:18:56 <elliott> Arc_Koen: sounds like excessive caching again, yes
16:19:22 <Arc_Koen> it wouldn't be the first time something weird happens though, on that other board games site that supported german and english, I was apparently the only one for whom it automatically switched back to german from time to time
16:21:03 <AnotherTest> (assuming GreyKnight is talking about Arc Linux) According to elliott, a terrible OS
16:23:38 <elliott> linux combines the numerous flaws of unix with some of its own, etc.
16:24:04 <elliott> AnotherTest: because it is convenient to install software I use on it and I have to use something
16:24:11 <elliott> that is not really an endorsement.
16:24:20 <elliott> plenty of people use Windows and I'm sure a large number of them don't like it one bit
16:24:35 <GreyKnight> elliott, you should write your own OS :-)
16:24:45 <Taneb> I use Ubuntu because I'm not completely right in the head and actually like Unity
16:25:06 <elliott> GreyKnight: been there, not done that
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16:27:52 <Taneb> It was/will be called "@", I believe
16:28:20 <GreyKnight> You should call it "" (the empty string)
16:29:40 <AnotherTest> If elliott made an OS, I would definitely install it
16:29:57 <AnotherTest> although that would be so I could say it was terrible :D
16:31:01 <AnotherTest> ("even though all operating systems are terrible" is what you said)
16:31:23 <AnotherTest> Maybe you should make something that's not an OS but does the exact same thing
16:31:29 <elliott> the truth values of statements can change over time
16:31:37 <elliott> for instance I am not dead, that does not mean I am immortal
16:32:04 <AnotherTest> If you had said "all existing operating systems", I would agree
16:32:57 <elliott> that is what I said. your interpretation is uncharitable for many common phrasings of statements, I don't see any reason to assume statements are timeless in general
16:33:41 <GreyKnight> If he had said "all operating systems ever" maybe
16:33:42 <AnotherTest> I was always told good statements are :p, but alright
16:46:32 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:49:28 <Gregor> My opinions on distros became much simpler after I decided to start blindly worshiping Debian as a digital messiah.
16:50:11 <Gregor> If I want to know if something is a good idea, I just have to ask myself, “does Debian do it that way?”
16:55:03 <Phantom_Hoover> AnotherTest, elliott was also going to make his own linux distro for a while
16:55:53 <elliott> i gave up on that when i realised the effort required exceeded the gains
16:56:08 <AnotherTest> (05:27:24 PM) elliott: linux combines the numerous flaws of unix with some of its own, etc.
16:56:37 <elliott> AnotherTest: what is your point
16:56:49 <GreyKnight> Anybody have a recommendation for a Scheme that runs on Win7?
16:57:09 <elliott> racket has pretty good windows support I think, if that counts as a scheme to you
16:57:10 <GreyKnight> Preferably one that works with SICP without major headaches
16:57:20 <elliott> well I guess you could just set the langauge to r5rs
16:58:06 <AnotherTest> elliott: I don't really have a strong point, that's the point
17:09:19 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:09:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
17:14:32 <Taneb> I'm worried I have metahyperchondria
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18:07:53 -!- kmc has set topic: ♣ Club Sauce ♣ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys elliott's selling all the information he gets from esowiki on to google, also facebook & mi5
18:21:17 <olsner> the information on esowiki needs to be more widely disseminated
18:26:12 <Phantom_Hoover> if you want esolangville be my guest, but i'm taking a stand
18:31:53 -!- Bike has joined.
18:33:51 <FreeFull> What would be a better way of writing insertNewlines n string = foldr (\(x,y) acc -> if and [x `mod` n == 0,x /= 0] then '\n':y:acc else y:acc) [] $ zip [0..] string
18:35:21 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:35:32 <FreeFull> > foldr (\(x,y) acc -> if and [x `mod` 3 == 0,x /= 0] then '\n':y:acc else y:acc) [] $ zip [0..] "Meow, I am a cheesey horse."
18:35:33 <lambdabot> "Meo\nw, \nI a\nm a\n ch\nees\ney \nhor\nse."
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18:41:34 <GreyKnight> "* oerjan is reminded of Gregor's (?) horrible tome of eval puns" <-- I desire to know more
18:42:01 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
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18:42:22 <fungot> GreyKnight: whitmore. come, come,
18:42:45 <GreyKnight> But fungot, I don't want to go to Whitmore :<
18:42:46 <fungot> GreyKnight: 2 you shall haue your will, as't please your lordship, to day the lords you talke of horse and armour?
18:42:57 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:43:16 <GreyKnight> FR: make it work in iambic pentameter :-3
18:43:21 <Gregor> GreyKnight: http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/jv/pubs/ecoop11.pdf
18:44:19 <Gregor> I don't know if we collected a list of puns we rejected X-D
18:45:06 <GreyKnight> "The Eval that Men Do" <-- begin as you mean to continue, I see
18:45:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
18:46:14 <Deewiant> > intercalate "\n" . chunk 3 $ "Meow, I am a cheesey horse."
18:46:16 <lambdabot> "Meo\nw, \nI a\nm a\n ch\nees\ney \nhor\nse."
18:47:35 * GreyKnight tries to figure out a possible use for that output
18:47:46 <Deewiant> > intercalate "\n" . chunksOf 3 $ "Meow, I am a cheesey horse."
18:47:48 <lambdabot> "Meo\nw, \nI a\nm a\n ch\nees\ney \nhor\nse."
18:48:08 <Deewiant> (chunksOf is in Data.List.Split)
18:49:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Get with the program:
18:49:39 <elliott> > "Meow, I am a cheesey horse."^.folded.chunking 3.to (intercalate "\n")
18:49:50 <elliott> > "Meow, I am a cheesey horse."^.folded.Data.List.Split.Lens.chunking 3.to (intercalate "\n")
18:49:52 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.List.Split.Lens.chunking'
18:50:21 <elliott> @let chunking s l f = coerce . traverse f . Data.List.Split.chunksOf s . toListOf l
18:50:22 <lambdabot> <local>:8:18: Not in scope: `coerce'
18:50:51 <elliott> @let chunking s l f = traverse f . Data.List.Split.chunksOf s . toListOf l
18:50:55 <Deewiant> FreeFull: Alternatively, cabal install lens and go through the above contortions.
18:50:55 <lambdabot> Applicative f => Int -> Getting (Endo [e]) s t e b1 -> ([e] -> f b) -> s -> f [b]
18:51:09 <elliott> > "Meow, I am a cheesey horse."^.folded.chunking 3.to (intercalate "\n")
18:51:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
18:51:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Hey, these contortions are all lambdabot's fault.
18:52:11 <Deewiant> elliott: I know, but even your first line feels like contortions for an isolated case. :-P
18:52:18 <elliott> well I was not entirely serious
18:52:40 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:53:58 * elliott might write it that way in practice, though
18:54:11 <elliott> since you can stuff other stuff in there if you want
18:55:06 <Deewiant> You can do that without lenses, too; it's called function composition.
18:56:11 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
18:56:51 <elliott> admittedly this one is pathological
18:56:54 <GreyKnight> Gregor: read the paper, I've seen worse punderstorms :-P
18:57:36 <Deewiant> I think your "chunking" has incorrect type, but the expression you gave doesn't work with lens-3.7.0.1 regardless.
18:57:54 <elliott> right my chunking is wrong
18:58:25 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: I'm planning on writing a program that outputs ascii graphics
18:58:47 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure. \ F.r.e.eFull likes messing around way too much
18:59:07 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
18:59:36 <Gregor> <GreyKnight> Gregor: read the paper, I've seen worse punderstorms :-P // that's because you don't have the pile of puns we rejected.
19:00:00 <elliott> should put something about my vicious wiki dictatorship in my entry
19:00:05 <elliott> instill the fear of god into people
19:00:56 <GreyKnight> FreeFull: I was wondering if the particular sentence Deewiant used was something, or maybe he's a Markov device like fungot!
19:00:57 <fungot> GreyKnight: fran. for this purpose? lord. by his great authority; which often hath no less than what he found himselfe was apt, and my fnord may call him my master, mr. g. fnord.
19:01:01 <Gregor> See no Eval, Hear no Eval, Speak no Eval. The Origin of Eval. True Eval.
19:01:13 <olsner> elliott: maybe end it with something like "Does not do anything with the wiki. Ask oerjan about the wiki."
19:01:34 <Gregor> (That was a potential title for the paper, but was rejected for suggesting provenance)
19:02:18 <HackEgo> The wiki is at http://esolangs.org/wiki
19:02:18 <GreyKnight> how about "The only thing necessary for eval to succeed is for good researchers to do nothing"
19:03:04 <olsner> hmm, that might be the only truthful wisdom in the database
19:03:24 <Gregor> GreyKnight: Damn, that should've gone into Eval Begone :(
19:04:16 <GreyKnight> repay eval with eval? I suppose that isn't quite the point you want to get across ;-)
19:04:27 <GreyKnight> same for "eval to him who eval thinks"
19:05:26 <GreyKnight> well, I suppose you did give a few valid cases for it in the paper really
19:05:49 <Gregor> I'm on to bigger and less punny things.
19:12:18 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: Repay eval with apply
19:12:54 <FireFly> "While JavaScript provides a few other entry points to code injection, such as setInterval, setTimeout [...]" ← those are provided by DOM, no?
19:13:28 <FireFly> I think `eval` and `Function` are the only ES-specced places where you can inject source code as a string programatically
19:13:35 <Gregor> FireFly: “JavaScript” is not “ECMAScript”
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19:14:08 <elliott> Gregor: Those quotes, really.
19:14:15 <Gregor> Usu. we colloquially use “JavaScript” to mean “that language and suite of libraries sorta kinda implemented by browsers.”
19:14:33 <Taneb> What about "ActionScript"
19:14:56 <FireFly> Taneb: it's a dialect of the abandoned 4th ed. ECMAScript
19:17:07 <Gregor> elliott: „Just for you, I'll start using German quotes.“
19:18:12 <FireFly> »I'm swedish and this is supposedly how we're meant to quote things»
19:18:47 <Taneb> 'I honestly have "no idea" how to "quote" things'
19:18:47 <Gregor> FireFly: That's even worse than "ASCII quotes".
19:19:08 <elliott> I didn't realise Gregor was one of Those People.
19:19:26 <Taneb> elliott, he also likes an operating system that currently exists
19:19:27 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C2%BB#Uses huh
19:19:30 <Gregor> elliott: It all started with diaeresis marks in this channel ;)
19:19:44 <FireFly> I think both »this« and »this» are officially endorsed, then
19:19:51 <Deewiant> – Or this, which is more common at least in Finnish.
19:20:28 <FireFly> Deewiant: yeah, that's just as ugly
19:20:42 <FireFly> <Deewiant> FireFly: ”Or this.” <-- that one, that is
19:20:48 <elliott> Deewiant: More like FNINISH.
19:20:54 <elliott> Deewiant: Did you hear fizzie and oklopol were in the same city?
19:21:07 <Deewiant> elliott: Yes, you were quite loud about it.
19:21:17 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
19:21:18 <elliott> Finland = land of varnish? Confirm for me Deewiant.
19:21:34 -!- Bike has joined.
19:21:36 <GreyKnight> ¨Diæresis marks for quotes? Now I've heard everything.¨
19:22:23 <Deewiant> elliott: Well, at least I have a varnished desk, if that counts.
19:22:35 <elliott> Deewiant: Sounds like incontrovertible proof for me.
19:22:48 <GreyKnight> wow I just found the unicode block at U+1F000, I didn't know this existed
19:23:26 <Gregor> 🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat!)
19:25:16 <Deewiant> elliott: That's just an ASCII space, that's not interesting at all.
19:25:39 <elliott> Deewiant: OTOH: you're an ASCII space?
19:25:49 * elliott just saw blank spaces for the previous line. rxvt's fault??
19:26:02 <Deewiant> I also saw nothing, and for Gregor's goat
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19:26:16 <Deewiant> I don't use mosh so maybe it's urxvt.
19:26:23 <elliott> don't be silly. Everyone uses mosh
19:26:32 -!- mindlessDrone has joined.
19:26:38 <Deewiant> Evidently I'm an ASCII space so I don't count as being part of "everyone".
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19:27:37 <elliott> ASCII spaces are people too???
19:28:44 <FreeFull> elliott: 🐃 and 🐐 show up as unicode animals for me
19:28:54 <FreeFull> I can't really see them that well due to font size though
19:28:55 <elliott> FreeFull: IMO: you're a unicode animal?
19:30:10 <zzo38> Can mosh turn off Unicode yet? Linux can turn off Unicode.
19:30:35 <elliott> @ask kmc <zzo38> Can mosh turn off Unicode yet? Linux can turn off Unicode.
19:32:34 <lambdabot> kmc: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:32:39 <lambdabot> elliott asked 2m 4s ago: <zzo38> Can mosh turn off Unicode yet? Linux can turn off Unicode.
19:33:12 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
19:37:28 <Bike> my favorite are the emoticons
19:37:36 <GreyKnight> FireFly: that's how we started off :-P
19:38:12 -!- jdiez has joined.
19:38:30 <jdiez> is that an infinite loop in brainfuck?
19:38:41 <Taneb> Depends on the implementation
19:38:47 <FreeFull> jdiez: Only if cells don't wraparound
19:39:03 <jdiez> well, it should be regardless of that
19:39:07 <jdiez> it's only incrementing the value
19:39:18 <FreeFull> jdiez: Yeah, but if the cell overflows, it will eventually be 0
19:39:18 <Bike> some implementations use modular arithmetic, though.
19:39:29 <jdiez> FreeFull: ah, okay, mine doesn't
19:39:32 <Bike> so 2^32-1 + 1 = 0 or whatever.
19:39:35 <FreeFull> That's what I meant by wraparound
19:39:41 <jdiez> I'm working on a dialect of brainfuck that I'm calling spacefuck
19:40:08 <FreeFull> If you're using a bf implementation with 32-bit cells, it will take a long time for the loop to terminate
19:40:22 <FireFly> Oh god, another BF derivative
19:40:26 <jdiez> well, the implementation is in python so it has arbitrary precision
19:40:28 <GreyKnight> ⟨Oh, this | is what I was looking for⟩
19:41:51 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: You'll eventually run out of memory, and the loop will terminate then
19:41:54 <FireFly> In that case it's not only an infinite loop, but also a memory-hogger :P
19:41:58 <Taneb> jdiez, #esoteric and #0x10c-dev have a fair bit of overlap
19:42:01 <Bike> modular arithmetic was good enough for your forefathers, young man
19:42:16 <FireFly> Taneb: more than, say, 5 people?
19:42:29 <GreyKnight> Shut up mum, you don't understand me ;_;
19:42:43 <Taneb> FireFly, somewhere between 1 and 3
19:42:56 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
19:43:11 <Bike> uh. am i going to die in seven days now
19:43:31 <Bike> because the inverse video looks spooky
19:43:39 <FireFly> Does it take seven days to die?
19:46:31 <elliott> FreeFull: itz,m whaever iwant!!
19:47:18 <FireFly> fungot: what's your current conversation style?
19:47:19 <fungot> FireFly: clar. or else you are that in this vniust diuorce of vs, and make the earth devour her own sweet fnord pluck the keen teeth from the fierce tiger's jaws, and burn, like horse, hound, hog, beare, fire, kill, kill him not!
19:47:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss* wp youtube
19:48:30 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
19:48:34 <fungot> FreeFull: what the hell is that?
19:48:50 <Bike> homestuck seems rather mean
19:49:02 <fizzie> It's also somewhat limited.
19:49:04 <fungot> GreyKnight: is it a mission critical text document with a velvet gloves. he is simply the best there is.
19:49:49 <fizzie> It does not OCR pictures or desmurfpile Flashes.
19:50:25 <Taneb> fungot, would you like to play a game?
19:50:25 <fungot> Taneb: so the dumbest and most far fetched but whatever. you also like to play games sometimes.
19:51:11 -!- Gregor has set topic: ♣ Smurf Pile Club Sauce ♣ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:51:49 <Taneb> GreyKnight is like some sort of futuristic oerjan
19:52:16 <Gregor> With a more ambiguous nick >_>
19:53:28 <Deewiant> elliott: Re. blanks instead of Unicode, I think it's the IRC client. I get a nice <0001f410> in another tmux window.
19:53:45 <fizzie> GreyKnight: "No, except in the sense that it goes into my irc logs and would therefore be used if I were to rebuild the irc style.", to answer your question from a while ago.
19:54:28 <Gregor> GreyKnight: Both of our nicks start with the same three characters, so to tab complete if we're both talking you need to type four >: (
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19:55:31 -!- GreyKnight has changed nick to FuturisticOerjan.
19:55:40 <Deewiant> Or type g and press tab twice, depending on your client.
19:56:46 <FreeFull> I like a language I can write in without resorting to browsing through charmap =P
19:57:23 <FuturisticOerjan> You can do that with APL! As long as you have a space cadet keyboard ⍩
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20:02:12 <FuturisticOerjan> You'll be astonished ⍤ — astonished, I say! — ⍥ when you press a button on the keyboard ⌨ and APL comes out. You'll want to kiss it ⍣
20:04:28 <FreeFull> I can write ♯ and ♭ with my keyboard
20:04:56 <FireFly> xkb ships with an `apl` layout for entering APL characters
20:05:22 <FreeFull> FireFly: I don't want to switch to it in case I can't switch back
20:05:38 -!- Frooxius has quit (*.net *.split).
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20:06:20 <FreeFull> It's confusing and ctrl doesn't work
20:06:46 <FreeFull> Also altgr+character inserts a two-byte non-unicode sequence
20:06:48 <FireFly> I think it's meant to be used as an alternative layout that you switch to, or something
20:10:44 * FireFly swats FuturisticOerjan ----##
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20:11:59 <FuturisticOerjan> U+101D0 to U+101FF are the Phaistos Disc symbols, that is pretty darn cool when you think about it
20:16:25 <FreeFull> PETSCII is a perfect candidate for one of the things unicode is for
20:17:39 <Deewiant> FuturisticOerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETSCII#Codepage_layout
20:20:47 <FreeFull> I don't seem to have the font required for some of the characters in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETSCII#Codepage_layout
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20:24:44 <HackEgo> 433) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace
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20:32:53 <HackEgo> 39) <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
20:33:33 <FuturisticOerjan> is there a list of the quotes somewhere so I can have a gander without spamming?
20:33:33 -!- ared_ has joined.
20:33:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27177
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20:36:28 <HackEgo> 15) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
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20:41:55 -!- ared_ has changed nick to xDEADCA7.
20:45:07 <zzo38> Well, I will have PETSCII compatibility in a computer system I design, regardless of if Unicode has it or not, because the system doesn't use Unicode (some programs might use any encoding they want, including Unicode, but it is not a part of the computer).
20:46:25 <zzo38> Not only PETSCII but also CP437 and some other things.
20:46:46 -!- ion has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:46:55 <zzo38> CP437 might be the default character set (or maybe not)
20:52:16 <Taneb> Heh, I remember the context to 693
20:52:24 <HackEgo> 693) <Phantom_Hoover> Incest, the enemy of graph theorists everywhere.
20:53:11 <HackEgo> 117) <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comfortable with this stuff, to me it seems like if you can unscrew lightbulbs, why couldn't you see into the future, or through walls as well
20:55:18 <Bike> `quote 117 # lessee
20:56:46 <jdiez> https://github.com/jdiez17/spacefuck
20:57:00 <jdiez> so yeah, I may have implemented Yet Another Brainfuck Dialect
20:57:10 <Taneb> jdiez, run before PH hears
20:57:23 <Taneb> And writes about it on his Tumblr
20:57:27 <jdiez> but the hello world is pretty self descriptive! https://github.com/jdiez17/spacefuck/blob/master/examples/hello.sf *giggles*
20:57:32 <Taneb> And replaces your brain with a brick
20:58:10 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:59:00 <Taneb> Also, I swear I've seen something like that before
20:59:31 <jdiez> Taneb: well, there's Whitespace
20:59:48 <Taneb> No, another brainfuck deriv
21:00:22 * oerjan gives the future a warning swat -----###
21:01:26 -!- FuturisticOerjan has changed nick to GreyKnight.
21:01:58 <oerjan> wait, you mean Gregor actually has fashion sense?
21:02:01 <elliott> ok who is 86.146.80.103 fess up
21:02:07 <GreyKnight> (Gregor complained that I was ruining his tab-completion, and somebody claimed I was "like a futuristic oerjan" (I still don't know what this means (yay parentheses)))
21:03:03 <GreyKnight> <Taneb> GreyKnight is like some sort of futuristic oerjan
21:03:43 <Taneb> * GreyKnight zaps Gregor ⚡
21:04:37 <oerjan> Taneb doesn't think i'm futuristic enough already ;_;
21:05:00 <Taneb> oerjan, you're still using a flyswatter
21:05:08 <oerjan> Taneb: no that's not me.
21:05:11 <Taneb> That's like, 16th century technology
21:06:14 <oerjan> hm it's hard to make an ascii zap that doesn't look like a saw
21:06:14 * GreyKnight swats Taneb with a mediaeval swatter ---ᚙ
21:06:30 * Taneb dies and is reincarnated as Ngevd
21:06:33 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
21:07:39 <olsner> oh, taneb is/was ngevd
21:07:55 <Ngevd> olsner, I'm also atriq
21:08:06 <Ngevd> And elliott, but you're not allowed to know that
21:08:14 <olsner> so many names for one thing
21:08:17 <GreyKnight> Hey, I found a Persian swatter too ---𐏊
21:08:51 <oerjan> aka Nathan van Doom, the Evil Mad Typographer
21:12:52 <olsner> ok, someone else in hexham then
21:13:35 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:14:43 <GreyKnight> ais523: ogham has "feather marks" ᚛ and ᚜
21:14:51 <oerjan> elliott: traceroute leads into bt.net
21:14:59 <olsner> note that hexham here refers to the whole UK/great britain/british isles/whatchamacallits
21:15:49 <oerjan> well reverse dns is btcentralplus
21:15:57 <olsner> my traceroute stops at "ilford"
21:16:06 <Gregor> GreyKnight: Ogham also has a space mark that Unicode considers whitespace in spite of the fact that it's not white space. Makes for some fun JavaScript ;)
21:16:26 <oerjan> olsner: mine got to 213.120.163.97
21:16:34 <oerjan> then stalled completely
21:16:47 <GreyKnight> You mean ? It actually is blank in some fonts :-o
21:18:24 <oerjan> that was 7 jumps after ilford
21:18:33 <Gregor> GreyKnight: Broken fonts >_>
21:18:58 <Gregor> Anyway, the net result is that this is valid JS: var x = 42;
21:19:06 <Gregor> And this is true: 42 == 42
21:19:14 <olsner> oerjan: yes, mine also continued with a bunch of ips after ilford, but those aren't informative so I left them out
21:19:30 <GreyKnight> sounds perfect for obfuscation competitions
21:19:37 <FireFly> Ngevd: I wouldn't consider Zeus futuristic
21:20:18 <olsner> code standards fun: indent everything with ogham space marks
21:20:22 <Gregor> You can also get some fun results with the zero-width space.
21:20:37 <Gregor> Put a zero-width space between -- and watch people's heads spin :)
21:20:52 <GreyKnight> Gregor: http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1680.pdf has the comment "glyph is blank in 'stemless' style fonts" so I guess they are okay with it
21:20:54 <FireFly> olsner: that's great. This'll finally put an end to the tabs-vs-spaces debate
21:20:57 <olsner> is there a 4-width space?
21:22:52 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:24:06 <olsner> it would be awesome and scary if unicode had a whitespace that looks like unsafeCoerce
21:24:37 -!- augur_ has joined.
21:24:43 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:24:47 <FreeFull> FireFly: It doesn't seem to like ᒿ
21:24:48 <oerjan> i don't think unicode space characters are legal in haskell identifiers, whether alphanumeric or operators
21:25:21 <olsner> oerjan: unsafeCoerceunsafeCoerceunsafeCoerce
21:25:46 <olsner> pretend that the middle unsafeCoerce is actually whitespace
21:25:50 <FireFly> oerjan: that's a letter character though
21:26:37 <oerjan> FireFly: oh it is? well lambdabot isn't entirely utf-8 clean i guess.
21:27:17 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:27:18 <Gregor> The only Unicode space character that isn't white space is
21:27:35 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:27:46 <oerjan> ok it's completely broken there.
21:27:51 <lambdabot> fd:9: commitBuffer: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:28:09 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo \195\165"]} rest:"\
21:28:24 <lambdabot> expecting letter or digit, variable, "(", operator or end of input
21:28:58 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:29:12 <FireFly> Looks like it treats each individual byte as a character for some reason
21:29:53 <ais523> GreyKnight: Unicode only goes up to 21 bits
21:29:53 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:29:57 <lambdabot> elliott said 5h 56m 56s ago: star651's languages appear to be esoteric mainly by way of being very poor
21:30:06 <ais523> elliott: I think I agree with this
21:30:16 <oerjan> FireFly: or possibly lambdabot hasn't been updated on this since ghc got an entirely new system for choosing encoding
21:30:21 <ais523> they're a rank above Shameful, though
21:30:54 <zzo38> Then, what is rank above Shameful called?
21:31:23 <GreyKnight> ais523: that's okay, it's also not a valid character :v
21:32:10 <lambdabot> mueval-core: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:32:33 <ais523> oh, it parsed fine in the input
21:32:36 <ais523> but refused to print it?
21:32:55 <oerjan> i suspect it breaks at various stages
21:32:55 <ais523> (is \195\165 valid UTF-8 for anything?)
21:33:05 <Gregor> ais523: I'd need to see it in binary.
21:33:11 <Gregor> I'm unwilling to decode octal.
21:33:13 <olsner> seems like lamdabot is mangling its own input and/or output to guarantee errors
21:33:21 <ais523> Gregor: well it isn't octal because there's a 9 in there
21:33:32 <Gregor> I'm certainly unwilling to decode decimal.
21:34:25 <Gregor> Basically, if the first byte starts with 110, and the second byte starts with 10, then it's valid UTF-8.
21:35:11 <oerjan> i assume lambdabot is such a mess that it cannot agree with itself whether it uses latin1 or utf-8 internally. which means it still works for pure ascii.
21:35:15 <Deewiant> 195 165 is 0xc3 0xa5 is UTF-8 for å
21:35:39 <ais523> is \165 decimal 165 or octal 165, though?
21:36:02 <ais523> it would be great if the language determined whether it was decimal or octal by looking for 8s and 9s
21:36:06 <oerjan> latin1 was the default before ghc got the new system, now it's your actual locale unless you change it
21:36:07 <FireFly> quick, someone define ^hex in terms of ^bf
21:36:23 <ais523> I feel an esolang coming along, actually
21:36:24 <Gregor> ais523: De facto, JavaScript does that.
21:36:53 <Gregor> ais523: People frequently serialize october and november as 08 and 09, so de facto engines have to accept them X_X
21:37:14 <ais523> I made that mistake on Wikipedia once, but I don't think the resulting code actually worked
21:37:31 <FireFly> That's probably one of the more weird oddities of JS
21:37:33 <elliott> Gregor: october and november?? what?
21:37:44 <FireFly> strict-mode disables octal escapes completely, right?
21:37:50 <Gregor> I'm not very good at months >_>
21:37:57 <ais523> the great thing about that bug is that frequently you don't discover it for several months
21:38:00 <Gregor> August and September I meant, of course X-D
21:38:00 <FireFly> does "\0199" work in strict-mode?
21:38:02 <elliott> Gregor: i'm not either, had to think a bit before deciding whether i could be confused or not
21:38:10 <ais523> do months in JS start from 1 or 0?
21:38:14 <Gregor> FireFly: \09 doesn't work anywhere, regardless.
21:38:18 <ais523> it may actually be september and october
21:38:25 <zzo38> I think they should make the default locale to be ASCII instead of Latin-1, and then, use command-line parameters, environment variables, etc, to change it.
21:38:25 <Gregor> ais523: Oh, I forget *shrugs*
21:38:38 <ais523> !c { char[] a = "\09"; printf("%d %d", a[0], a[1]); }
21:38:41 <zzo38> I like the \& string code in Haskell it is a good idea.
21:38:51 <GreyKnight> I think Java treats 08 and 09 as decimal too (?)
21:38:54 <ais523> I was hoping for "0 57"
21:39:14 <ais523> olsner: reference to a subroutine
21:39:21 <ais523> in the only language where I recognise the syntax at all
21:39:22 <GreyKnight> <ais523> I feel an esolang coming along, actually <-- tell us more
21:39:29 <Gregor> Yeah, I wanna hear about that X-D
21:39:32 <zzo38> olsner: It represents an empty string; but can be used like "\555\&6" if you want a six afterward
21:39:37 <ais523> GreyKnight: one where it picked a base for numbers based on their digits, it would probably make some unrepresentable
21:39:47 <olsner> zzo38: ah, that's nice
21:39:49 <lambdabot> No quotes match. It can only be attributed to human error.
21:39:53 <ais523> Cyclexa has one of those
21:39:54 <Gregor> My first thoughts are that a number is interpreted in the radix of the highest digit + 1.
21:39:54 <FireFly> You could always fall back on unary
21:40:06 <ais523> you could do all numbers from 0 to 9
21:40:16 <ais523> I'm not sure you could to 10
21:40:24 <ais523> OK, I'll use roman numerals to reduce confusion
21:40:32 <ais523> you could do all numbers from _ to IX
21:40:34 <Gregor> `addquote <ais523> OK, I'll use roman numerals to reduce confusion
21:40:35 <ais523> not sure you could do X
21:40:38 <HackEgo> 863) <ais523> OK, I'll use roman numerals to reduce confusion
21:40:55 <ais523> oh, bleh, you can do anything using binary
21:41:08 <ais523> wait, that doesn't help
21:41:11 <ais523> unless you make it a syntax error
21:41:16 <ais523> FireFly: that's good for representing 0
21:41:18 <zzo38> I think I wrote RogueVM that base zero means using roman numerals.
21:41:36 <ais523> if you write more 0s, you just get more 0s
21:41:50 <FireFly> clearly zero should be represented by the empty string
21:41:54 <Gregor> Yeah, you can still represent anything.
21:42:02 <ais523> OK, I think if binary is a syntax error, I is impossible, II to IX are all possible
21:42:14 <ais523> I can't see a way to do X
21:42:30 <ais523> olsner: without cheating and using arithmetic
21:42:41 <ais523> clearly, the only operations allowed are digitwise operations
21:42:47 <ais523> like what TriINTERCAL has
21:42:49 <Gregor> Arithmetic: Totally cheating.
21:43:07 <ais523> and again, it infers the base of the result from the smallest digits in it
21:43:12 <ais523> and again, binary is an error
21:43:13 <olsner> oh, ok... I was thinking about a language or somesuch where the only literal number is 0
21:43:15 <Gregor> You should have a store that can only be accessed by relative offsets from the PC :)
21:43:18 <ais523> (i.e. you have to have at least one digit that's 2 or higher)
21:43:31 <Gregor> (Since those relative offsets are frequently unexpressible)
21:44:01 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:44:24 <ais523> Gregor: well the obvious consequence of that is to make it a self-modifying machine-code-like language
21:44:30 <ais523> have the only flow control as unconditional goto
21:44:35 <ais523> that can be overwritten with other commands
21:45:14 <Gregor> But just to be clear, your units should be source digits, so that overwriting them doesn't give you much utility.
21:45:35 <Gregor> (i.e., the units are digits, not numbers)
21:50:32 <ais523> not sure what you mean there
21:50:40 <ais523> oh, you mean we store one digit per "byte"?
21:50:54 <ais523> and commands that take arguments read forward to the next command?
21:51:08 <ais523> actually, does that prevent the language being TC?
21:51:14 <ais523> or can you somehow extend the program?
21:51:15 <GreyKnight> so if you overwrite the second unit of 1234 to 5 you get 1534
21:51:21 <Gregor> ais523: I don't know, that's the question, innit :)
21:51:29 <ais523> and I can put this up on the wiki
21:52:21 <Gregor> "Ixün" is a play on Unix, in spite of the language having no relation to Unix whatsoever.
21:52:28 <FireFly> Oh, I'm a bit slow it seems
21:52:38 <elliott> ais523: how about look at the deletion log
21:53:06 <elliott> how about The Correct Way To Discover Credit Immediately
21:53:54 <Gregor> Hm, how do you get to the deletion log from the front page? >_>
21:54:15 <Gregor> Doesn't seem to be under special pages...
21:54:35 <FireFly> I bet you need to be in the admin group or something
21:54:39 <ais523> elliott: save it for another language?
21:54:46 <ais523> Gregor: there's a list of special pages
21:54:48 <ais523> one of them is the logs
21:54:51 <ais523> you can filter it to deletions
21:55:19 <ais523> it is kind-of hard to find if you don't know where it is, but it's public
21:55:19 <Gregor> Aha, it's under the complete log list, got it.
21:55:23 <elliott> Gregor: Special:Log/delete
21:55:48 <Gregor> How about Regulatory przeplywu?
21:56:31 <ais523> I'd prefer to save the deletion log names for languages which really can't sensibly be named anything else
21:56:31 <FireFly> Exactly what I was about to suggest
21:56:43 <zzo38> In Typographical Number Theory, the only literal number is zero; other than that you use successor operation, and addition and multiplication.
21:56:45 <elliott> ais523: you're not avant garde enough imo
21:56:47 <FireFly> przeplywu apparently means "flow"
21:56:50 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, fair enough, I think we can get a real name here :)
21:56:51 <FireFly> regulatory flow sounds.. interesting
21:58:33 <Gregor> Well, my suggestion still stands. Radical Ixün.
21:58:51 <Gregor> If I don't like where you go with the language, I may fork for Radical Ixün anyway X-D
21:59:37 <Gregor> <Gregor> "Ixün" is a play on Unix, in spite of the language having no relation to Unix whatsoever.
22:00:07 <elliott> ais523: how about [[ais523s new grate esolang]]
22:00:43 <ais523> I like "radixal" and "radixulous"
22:00:48 <ais523> Gregor: it's not basic-like, though
22:01:02 <Gregor> In that it's all about (numeric) base.
22:01:22 <elliott> ais523: there are already multiple languages called Algol that are completely unlike each other, after all
22:06:34 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:08:58 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
22:11:31 <HackEgo> 531) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, making myself emergency doctor on the advice of IRC.
22:12:04 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
22:12:08 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck* ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:12:19 <FireFly> oh, right, I forgot that I was going to check homestuck out
22:16:05 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
22:16:21 <ais523> 531 would be better if it were <Sgeo> rather than <Phantom_Hoover>
22:17:06 <ais523> you need to know Sgeo's history, really
22:17:11 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, (that one was from that phase elliott went through of `addquoting my running commmentary on playing dwarf fortress)
22:17:27 <HackEgo> 475) <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain <Patashu> it's never close enough
22:17:41 <HackEgo> 720) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice.
22:17:56 <HackEgo> 286) <Gregor> I use LiGNUXFCE+apps <Gregor> That's pronounced by saying "Linux" and then vomiting, btw.
22:18:03 <HackEgo> 351) <zzo38> Fiddle. It makes a big difference, you know.
22:18:10 <HackEgo> 306) <crystal-cola> http://www.sessionmagazine.com/img/nature/worlds-10-smallest-animals/worlds-10-smallest-animals07.jpg <crystal-cola> worlds biggest thumb
22:18:10 <elliott> that's one too many ais523
22:18:16 <ais523> it's because I was reading them
22:18:19 <ais523> rather than wanting to delete one
22:18:20 <olsner> what is this weird method of quoting, one quote at a time?
22:18:33 <ais523> "illegal" isn't misspelt
22:18:35 <ais523> you must be really angry
22:18:48 <HackEgo> 396) <oklopol> such a famous bisexual <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, like Marlon Brando. <Phantom_Hoover> And Caligula. <Phantom_Hoover> And... Keeley Hawes? <Phantom_Hoover> I feel cheated by Ashes to Ashes now.
22:18:53 <ais523> every now and then we `quote five times, then delete the worst
22:18:58 <ais523> in order to improve the average qdb quality
22:19:11 <ais523> you need several channel regulars there to do it
22:19:33 <elliott> i guess rules technically don't apply to me
22:19:42 <Deewiant> Do you do it in private queries? If not it's not sufficiently rogue
22:19:56 <ais523> elliott: you count as several channel regulars by yourself
22:20:02 <HackEgo> 276) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
22:20:03 <ais523> elliott, ehird, alise, ehird`
22:20:16 <ais523> I think all those nicks have been here enough to count as regulars
22:20:25 <HackEgo> 97) <fungot> alise: why internet is like wtf \ 101) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... \ 105) <fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia \ 109) <AnMaster> alise, marble <AnMaster> marbelus \ 110) <alise> cmake is a
22:20:46 -!- carado has joined.
22:20:49 <Gregor> `run head -n 1 /dev/urandom >> quotes
22:20:50 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:21:06 <olsner> hmm, it seems keeley hawes was excessively bisexualized by the press
22:21:07 <ais523> shachaf: I think it was an experiment into how people would react to a female nick
22:21:13 <ais523> and most of the more obvious ones were taken
22:21:25 <shachaf> `run head -n 1 /dev/urandom
22:21:27 <elliott> ais523 "future elliottologist"
22:21:27 <HackEgo> .C.3<i`3.Dk)0ͱ..N_(aO...qI.l!!.Ő|>c|ݢU...?.1Fme۽s.&!."醞μ}.*.....*.>C;'0
22:21:35 <ais523> what's that third character?
22:21:38 <elliott> GreyKnight: you made a mistake
22:21:42 <elliott> it should have been > not >>
22:21:53 <elliott> by GreyKnight i mean Gregor
22:22:02 <HackEgo> 24) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
22:22:08 <shachaf> I say we kick GreyKnight now.
22:22:09 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
22:22:10 <ais523> GreyKnight: you need a unique first two characters of your nick, really
22:22:19 <ais523> AimHere must be annoyed by all my accidental /ctcp pings of him
22:22:22 <ais523> when I try to see if I'm connected
22:23:03 <ais523> http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?805
22:23:11 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeley_Hawes#Personal_life
22:23:14 <shachaf> ais523: #nethack is the worst channel.
22:23:20 <ais523> shachaf: there's /got/ to be worse
22:23:30 <HackEgo> 826) < kmc> but i mean i don't like jogging so i wouldn't like jogging while jerking off either
22:23:36 <Gregor> GreyKnight: Homophobe.
22:23:49 <ais523> just because worse exists doesn't mean you have to link it
22:23:49 <elliott> i think the worst quote is #ais523
22:24:00 <ais523> (/me thinks this should be added as a new Rule of the Internet)
22:24:17 <ais523> (it'd follow on neatly from rule… 36? not good at memorizing them by number)
22:24:18 <Gregor> ais523: Where's the radix language? On the wiki yet? Implemented yet?
22:24:30 <elliott> call the radix language Gregor
22:24:34 <ais523> Gregor: none of those yet
22:24:46 <shachaf> Gracenotes: You have to go too.
22:24:48 <Gregor> ais523: Finished the JIT yet?
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> urban dictionary gives me 2 contradictory definitions of rule 36
22:24:55 <HackEgo> 183) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what <tswett> Heck yes I'm elliott's uncle.
22:24:55 <GreyKnight> is #bearcave a homosexuality-related channel?
22:25:26 <ais523> Gregor: isn't that your job?
22:25:35 <Gregor> GreyKnight: Probably not on FreeNode, but classically that's used as trollbait because that's what “bear” refers to.
22:25:48 <ais523> yeah, it's not in most list
22:25:49 <elliott> classically i.e. non-constructively
22:25:54 <ais523> but in the ones where it is, it's 36
22:26:08 <HackEgo> 719) <shachaf> elliott: Anyway, if you wrote a Haskell book, I would read it and possibly provide classical criticism. <shachaf> That is to say, non-constructive.
22:26:11 <ais523> hahaha at the history of rule 35, btw
22:26:12 <GreyKnight> (I am only familiar with it from trolling and there isn't usually much context)
22:26:37 <ais523> it used to be "the exception to rule 34 is rule 34 itself", now it's effectively "violations of rule 34 will be corrected over time"
22:26:54 <HackEgo> 812) < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
22:27:01 <ais523> there is a beautiful irony, and perhaps a deliberate reference, in this
22:27:14 <Gregor> GreyKnight: I'm sure if you Google something like "bear -animal -mammal" you'll find the definition that matters pretty quick ;)
22:28:32 <ais523> calling rule 34 on things is typically a bad idea
22:28:45 <ais523> (this should also be added as a rule)
22:28:47 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: granny darted back, grabbed the pitcher of water from a fake buttonhole. ' no sense in rushing around the whole time! you will die for this.
22:28:55 <Bike> fungus porn is pretty cool to watch if it's made right
22:29:06 <Bike> undercrank and so on
22:29:12 <HackEgo> *poof* SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
22:29:20 <olsner> maybe fungot's source is pornography if you look at it the right way
22:29:21 <fungot> olsner: " vorbis?" he said softly. there. done it myself."
22:29:23 <Gregor> Porn where the characters spew markov-chain-generated sequences of words?
22:29:50 <Bike> GreyKnight: video of the fruiting bodies doing their thang, etc
22:29:57 <Bike> some fungi shoot out spores like bullets!
22:30:02 <ais523> Bike: do you have a stalkword on rule 34?
22:30:15 <ais523> or did you just decide to unidle for the first time in ages at that exact moment?
22:30:22 <ais523> Bike: you set it as a word that your IRC client notifies you about
22:30:29 <ais523> I have one on "intercal", for instance
22:30:30 <olsner> lots of fungi (or maybe those are mushrooms?) have phallic shapes
22:30:31 <Bike> oh. no i just like fungi
22:30:34 <ais523> (only in channels you're in, obviously)
22:31:11 <Bike> not sure how it would work with befunge though, i guess you could probably write something avida-like on it fairly easily
22:32:07 <ais523> Bike: /please/ don't put too much thought into this
22:32:15 <ais523> (I know this is a fruitless request, but I feel compelled to make it)
22:32:35 <FireFly> Brainfuck porn? wait, damn, no, that's no good
22:32:47 <zzo38> I don't use any set as word my IRC client notifies me about (although it does have such a command)
22:32:52 <shachaf> FireFly: You have to go too.
22:33:04 <olsner> FireFly: it's just bricks and brains
22:33:21 <Bike> ais523: it's not like i'm interested in fungus reproduction because i get off on it, golly, i just think it's biologically interesting
22:33:24 <Bike> and alife is fun!
22:33:27 <shachaf> There's a new policy where the first two characters of your nick have to be unique.
22:33:28 <ais523> Fiora: the "no two people can share the same first two letters of their nick" theory
22:33:49 * ais523 fears they've created a meme
22:34:01 * Bike looks sidelong at boily
22:34:04 <ais523> Fiora: it's OK, I don't think anyone's enforcing the policy
22:34:05 <zzo38> O no, it is not bricks and brains. It is Brains&Flags which is a computer game I am designing just right now even.
22:34:11 -!- Sgeo|web has joined.
22:34:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: wouldn't xfiora be a GUI version?
22:34:27 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: and I to xFireFly?
22:34:31 <Fiora> I could become nepetiora
22:34:55 <GreyKnight> Bike: an Avidafunge sounds interesting
22:34:55 <Bike> would you do the :33 thing again
22:34:59 <zzo38> Does GNU C have the command to initialize specified element of array and make the rest zero? Can it be done with structures too?
22:35:02 <ais523> can I take this as evidence in favour of the birthday paradox?
22:35:24 <ais523> zzo38: yes, C99 has it; int a[100] = { [20]=4 };
22:35:34 <ais523> with structures, probably struct foo = { .bar = 12 };
22:35:37 <Bike> GreyKnight: i've ben asked to cease wondering about, sorry
22:35:39 <zzo38> In addition, does it support in LLVM-based C compilers?
22:35:41 <oerjan> <Bike> fungus porn is pretty cool to watch if it's made right <-- so i guess we want a befunge program that looks like fungus porn, and i _think_ it ought to be a quine.
22:35:55 <Bike> GreyKnight: guess it would kind of blur the line between cellular automata and programmin', though
22:35:57 <Deewiant> zzo38: Yes, clang supports C99.
22:35:59 <zzo38> ais523: So if it is top level will it initialize the rest zero?
22:36:16 <ais523> probably even if it isn't top level
22:36:21 <GreyKnight> what if we get more than ~1500 users in the channel?!
22:36:26 <ais523> having an initializer /at all/ makes unmentoined things default to 0
22:36:30 <ais523> GreyKnight: there are punctuation marks
22:36:36 <ais523> although that might not be enough
22:36:42 <ais523> also 26 squared is 676
22:36:52 * ais523 notices that their two criticisms cancel each other out
22:37:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, but you're implicitly disallowing different cases
22:37:10 <ais523> yes I refer to myself using singular they
22:37:10 <FireFly> the set of punctuation marks available in nicks is rather limited, isn't it?
22:37:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well my tab-complete doesn't respect case
22:37:38 <Bike> haha is it really
22:37:44 <Fiora> Bike: do you want me to do the :33 thing again
22:37:48 <ais523> I always check that for random nick suggestions
22:37:52 <GreyKnight> 36 squared is about ~1200 and I rounded up a bit to try and compensate for the punctuation
22:37:53 <FireFly> Wait, what is the :33 thing?
22:37:55 <Bike> no dear, that's quite alright
22:38:37 <ais523> this conversation is somehow more surreal than average for the channel
22:38:47 <ais523> someone write a BF Joust program, I understand those
22:38:49 <Fiora> :33 < but i am pawsitive that you would enjoy it bike
22:38:54 <zzo38> I like the zero-length arrays of GNU C and I think C99 is flexible array; I prefer the way zero-length arrays work, I think it is more sensible with how C work generally.
22:39:18 <Fiora> :33 < nepeta's patterns of sp33ch are purrfect
22:39:40 <Fiora> :33 < sorry, i furgot about that
22:39:47 <Gregor> ais523: The radix language should have no symbols other than digits (and whitespace to separate them), and should allow binary, but should have different behavior depending on the radix you write the number in X-D
22:40:11 <ais523> Gregor: no, that would defeat the whole point
22:40:15 <olsner> ais523: which of the conversations were you referring to? the fungus porn, nick prefixes, array initialization or squares of numbers conversation?
22:40:26 <ais523> olsner: I can't actually tell them apart
22:40:28 <fungot> FireFly: dios gave him a long time the barge was passing between high orange cliffs now, banded with so many fine daughters to bring up the subject.
22:40:31 <ais523> apart from the array initialization one
22:40:42 <zzo38> Do the LLVM C compilers allow zero-length array to be specified in GNU mode?
22:40:50 <olsner> especially the squares thing, where the hell did that come from?
22:40:52 <Fiora> :33 < okay i will stop equius
22:40:54 <Gregor> ais523: Oh, I suppose it defeats the point in that the challenge is no longer figuring out how to encode a number, because you only have one or zero choices.
22:41:41 <Gregor> ais523: Well, you could make binary do one thing and all other radixes do something else. Basically I just don't want non-digit symbols :). I suppose the alternative is to have multiple numbers per operation.
22:41:45 <Gregor> Do a subleq or something.
22:41:46 -!- monqy has joined.
22:42:18 <ais523> Gregor: well if you're using code-is-data, you have to be able to store an entire number in memory
22:42:29 <ais523> I guess you write numbers into consecutive addresses
22:42:50 <ais523> so I guess you assign commands to numbers
22:42:50 <Gregor> Opcodes are not a unified length, they're whitespace-separated X-D
22:42:57 <ais523> for bonus points, mostly to unrepresentable numbers
22:43:01 <ais523> separate with whitespace
22:43:12 <Gregor> Errr, unrepresentable numbers can't be stored.
22:43:20 <GreyKnight> I came up with a language that used only digit symbols, but it wasn't too interesting
22:43:23 <ais523> representable numbers then
22:43:36 <ais523> should offsets be measured in numbers or digits?
22:43:44 <zzo38> Do you think zero-length array is much more logical than the C99 way? I think it makes a lot more sense. And there are some more uses other than just variable-length objects.
22:43:48 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, and your ability to realise that puts you head and shoulders above every other goddamn esolang noob.
22:44:07 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:44:14 <ais523> GreyKnight: Phantom_Hoover is particularly annoyed by people who make bad esolangs
22:44:22 <zzo38> It also means you can use sizeof; "Flexible array members have incomplete type, and so the sizeof operator may not be applied."
22:44:42 <ais523> zzo38: a flexible member is [], isn't it, not [0]?
22:44:59 <ais523> OK, someone convince me not to call this language Radixal, or I will
22:45:11 <zzo38> ais523: Yes. Zero-length arrays are different, and I think, more sensible than flexible arrays.
22:45:27 <ais523> zzo38: but technically, you can't index more than one element past the end of them
22:45:33 <zzo38> GCC also permits empty structures, which I also think is good to accept, having size zero.
22:45:33 <Gregor> ais523: I'm not opposed to Radixal, although I do wonder to what degree the language forming in your head is similar/distinct from the one forming in mine X-D
22:45:57 <ais523> hmm, I think it needs the exclamation mark
22:46:07 <ais523> particularly because I'm annoyed by words that end with exclamation marks
22:46:09 <zzo38> ais523: Well, if it is a structure then if you allocate more memory, then you could be able to index a larger size of it.
22:46:16 <ais523> and it feels appropriate to give the language a name that anonys me
22:47:07 <olsner> could also call it Radixa! or RadixaI
22:47:10 <ais523> that annoys meeven more, and now I want to use it
22:47:19 <ais523> do you prefer it to the one-exclamation mark version?
22:47:39 <elliott> ais523: imo as many exclamation marks as you can stand
22:47:46 <ais523> that's probably 4, then
22:47:54 <monqy> a rainbow of exclamation marks
22:48:02 <ais523> 3 is the limit of what's reasonable, so 4 is too many, and 5 is not significantly different to 4
22:48:22 <Gregor> 4 is the worst conceivable number.
22:48:23 <ais523> more than too many is not noticeably different to too many
22:48:44 <olsner> 4 is a good number, too many to be comfortable yet few enough that you can get the right number of them with good reliability
22:48:51 <monqy> radixal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:49:44 <ais523> yeah, my brain's getting hung up on typing this, definitely 4 is the right number
22:50:08 <GreyKnight> can the coloured exclamation marks be part of the name?
22:50:42 <elliott> ais523: what if i made the wiki show a random number of exclamation marks after any occurrence of "Radixal"
22:50:49 <zzo38> I think you could even use zero-length array as something to measure the size in order to use in a macro in order to expect the type of a variable if it is known a structure including a certain name.
22:50:56 <Gregor> Radixal!+ might be the first novel idea in esolangs in a year.
22:51:03 <olsner> GreyKnight: for the sole purpose of requiring a note on the wiki page that it should be spelled with colors?
22:51:19 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
22:52:02 <olsner> hmm, I actually think a few of the emoji characters are supposed to be displayed with colors
22:52:13 <elliott> one of them even has a name involving colours
22:52:14 <olsner> uncertain if that made it into unicode though
22:52:23 * oerjan swats Gregor for ignoring Fueue -----###
22:53:04 <Taneb> Although the interesting bits of Fueue were unintentional
22:53:14 <FireFly> one? there's many unicode characters with a colour in their name
22:53:19 <FireFly> IIRC there's both Green Apple and Red Apple
22:53:20 <ais523> OK, so numbers that are out of the usual range for commands: should they be errors, NOPs, repeat other commands, or something else?
22:53:23 <elliott> `sed -i 's/design/design and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
22:53:25 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-file to the commands to be executed \ --follow-symlinks
22:53:26 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/design/design and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
22:53:29 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 32: unknown option to `s'
22:53:30 <Taneb> It was originally "A bit like Underload, but with numeric literals and a queue instead of two stucks"
22:53:35 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/design/design and deployment/' wisdom/welcome
22:53:42 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:53:49 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:53:52 <ais523> someone, I need an opinion here!
22:53:56 <ais523> or failing that, a fact
22:54:13 <elliott> ais523: they should be something radically!!!! random!!!!
22:54:30 <elliott> ais523: maybe it prints something from a predefined list of phrases
22:54:37 <elliott> ais523: or reverses the program!
22:54:43 <ais523> come to think of it, we could just make them ever larger-based BUT instructions
22:54:53 <ais523> GreyKnight: Python doesn't have s/// notation
22:55:00 <elliott> make them do what X does in CHIQRSX9+
22:55:11 <elliott> this also means it's really painful to write an interpreter in anything but Perl
22:55:13 <ais523> elliott: but this language is interesting to determine if it's TC another way
22:55:51 <elliott> ais523: OK, then make it so that the Perl program it runs always starts with an invalid character
22:56:08 <elliott> ais523: anyway my point is it should do something completely stupid
22:56:35 <ais523> oerjan: just realised, ofc you can write a deterministic CHIQRSX9+ program that has a specific function; all one-capital-character words are legal in Perl (they return themselves), so you start with X; then write the rest of the program entirely with punctuation marks
22:56:59 <ais523> (which is /totally/ possible in Perl)
22:57:13 <ais523> does it rotate punctuation marks as well as letters?
22:57:13 <zzo38> But what if control characters?
22:57:21 <zzo38> I think it rotate everything.
22:57:28 <ais523> elliott: I guess it should just output the numbers in question
22:57:31 <elliott> $prog .= chr +(ord($_)+$lang & 255)
22:57:43 <ais523> it's the entire ASCII range
22:57:44 <elliott> ais523: output them but with "!!!!" after it
22:57:46 <ais523> yeah, that could be harder
22:57:49 <elliott> it's marginally more stupid to use one more ! for no reason
22:58:10 <GreyKnight> Output them with a number of exclamation marks equal to the number itself
22:59:21 <ais523> gah, typoed "Radixal!!!"
22:59:36 <ais523> this 4-! name is beautiful :')
23:01:29 <olsner> (hmm, for wiki-technical reasons, there should be a /// dialect called ###)
23:01:31 <GreyKnight> BTW does anyone have a link to a good clear explanation of monads? I was trying to explain it recently but don't think I was very good at it :-/
23:01:53 <GreyKnight> olsner: can we have a language called ---###
23:02:12 <ais523> <GreyKnight> BTW does anyone have a link to a good clear explanation of monads? I was trying to explain it recently but don't think I was very good at it :-/ ← please tell me this line was a particularly good attempt at trolling, rather than accidental
23:02:29 <olsner> GreyKnight: ask oerjan, maybe he'll make one
23:02:48 <GreyKnight> ais523, actual request and I don't know what you mean :-?
23:03:03 <ais523> GreyKnight: monad tutorials are a meme
23:03:08 <ais523> in the Haskell community
23:03:30 <GreyKnight> I didn't know that, I am not really involved with Haskell much
23:03:38 <GreyKnight> I take it the answer is "no" then? :-P
23:03:50 <elliott> tip: don't explain programming monads to someone without a functional-language-with-typeclasses-of-some-sort background
23:03:55 <elliott> because it is meaningless to them
23:04:04 <zzo38> olsner: I think there is a /// dialect called ### but it doesn't work
23:04:08 <elliott> (explaining monads the category theory concept is fine, of course, but won't really help a programmer)
23:04:19 <elliott> someone *with* that background should just go read the Typeclassopedia or something
23:04:39 <elliott> most of the ~monads are hard~ nonsense comes from people trying to understand monads without understanding what understanding monads is about
23:04:42 <elliott> the actual abstraction is mundane
23:05:20 <GreyKnight> that's http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia , right?
23:05:46 <Phantom_Hoover> explaining monads-the-category-theory-concept is probably impossible for your average programmer, tbh
23:06:04 <elliott> your average programmer wouldn't ask in the first place
23:06:14 <GreyKnight> "Anyway, I think those people must actually be robots because there’s no way anyone could come up with that in two seconds off the top of their head. " I like this page already
23:06:16 <Bike> "monad tutorial fallacy"
23:06:17 <elliott> tip 2: usually don't say "average X"
23:06:36 <elliott> shachaf: should i commit something to lens. nobody has touched it in hours it feels weird.
23:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> the comment was running too long, i cut "inexperienced-in-typclasses" short
23:06:46 <Bike> "a whole cottage industry of monad tutorials"
23:07:24 <ais523> "*Any string that contains nothing but <code>0</code>s and <code>1</code>s, and at least I <code>1</code>, is considered an error and crashes the interpreter. Although any sort of crash is acceptable and complies with the spec, we recommend segfaults, or on Windows, Blue Screens of Death."
23:07:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:07:58 <ais523> by the way, BSoDs don't exist any more because they made the screen red instead >:(
23:08:36 <Bike> i thought red was the xbox version
23:08:46 <elliott> shachaf: DONT SAY ZIPPER BENCHMARKS
23:08:50 <zzo38> Is blue in ReactOS?
23:09:22 <FreeFull> ais523: I thought both red and blue existed now
23:09:31 <shachaf> elliott: lens? I think that's finished.
23:09:46 <boily> aaaaaurgh... 10 hours straight...
23:09:56 <boily> (sorry. just had a long work day.)
23:10:01 <zzo38> At least an older screenshot I have seen of ReactOS shows the BSoD, so you can know that they did manage to make ReactOS at least that much.
23:10:02 <elliott> shachaf: I hate the renaming of Zipper to Zipping.
23:10:08 <olsner> ais523: if you're red/blue color blind, does the new screen of dead look the same as the old one?
23:10:20 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
23:10:25 <fizzie> "Dec 7 23:56:11 nyx kernel: [20076405.959198] psmouse.c: Mouse at isa0060/serio4/input0 lost synchronization, throwing 1 bytes away." That's a new one for me.
23:10:26 <ais523> olsner: it's probably a slightly different shade of redblue
23:10:33 <ais523> also red/blue colorblindness isn't a real sort, AFAIK
23:10:41 <ais523> it's red/green, or blue/yellow, or not having color vision at all
23:11:05 <kmc> yeah, those are the two color representation channels
23:11:22 <olsner> ais523: ... and here I thought I was avoiding the whole "there are 13 kinds of color blind" trap
23:12:37 <GreyKnight> huh somehow I never heard about reactos
23:13:22 <olsner> elliott: screen of deađ?
23:13:27 <Bike> it used to be called somethng else, didn't it?
23:16:49 <HackEgo> 581) <zzo38> The fighting game I prefer is the card game Yomi
23:17:09 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness#Classification
23:17:15 <oerjan> <GreyKnight> olsner: can we have a language called ---### <-- certainly not, that's the wrong number of -'s
23:18:12 <GreyKnight> how about an audio-based language that uses R2D2 beeps and squawks.
23:19:38 -!- ared_ has joined.
23:20:01 <GreyKnight> maybe I should sleep before I get any more silly
23:20:06 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: zzz).
23:21:41 <oerjan> <elliott> shachaf: should i commit something to lens. nobody has touched it in hours it feels weird. <-- is it asymptotic? is lens achieving the singularity?
23:22:15 <olsner> stagnation => complete rewrite
23:22:29 -!- xDEADCA7 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:25:24 <oerjan> i got a little bit into the tutorial before my crashed
23:26:39 <elliott> lens has first-class patterns now!
23:27:18 <oerjan> i think it was something on github
23:27:24 <shachaf> elliott: Maybe prisms and lenses (and partial lenses) are the true answer to how view patterns should work.
23:27:51 * elliott would like to see -XViewLenses
23:28:04 <elliott> shachaf: Sometimes you might have a view pattern whose inverse is a pain, though.
23:28:11 <elliott> Like it would have to balance a tree or something.
23:41:05 <olsner> on lenses, or specifically this new lens library
23:41:27 <elliott> the tutorial is looking at the types real hard
23:41:30 <elliott> and then realising it's obvious
23:41:46 <elliott> olsner: here's a "quick sell" tho
23:42:11 <elliott> both f (a,b) = (,) <$> f a <*> f b -- multilens! (traversal)
23:42:19 <elliott> just _ Nothing = pure Nothing
23:42:28 <elliott> just f (Just x) = Just <$> f x -- partial lenses!
23:42:46 <elliott> (_1 :: (Functor f) => (a -> f a') -> (a,b) -> f (a',b))
23:42:58 <elliott> (both :: (Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> (a,a) -> f (b,b))
23:43:07 <elliott> (just :: (Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> Maybe a -> f (Maybe b))
23:43:16 <elliott> and then everything is just combinators on top of types like these
23:43:50 <olsner> seems a bit like a huge library of combinators for pointless programming
23:44:07 <elliott> olsner: also the cooler thing is that you can compose these with Prelude
23:44:10 <elliott> and it goes in "oop order"
23:44:21 <elliott> Prelude as in id and (.) on functions
23:44:38 <elliott> _1.just :: (Applicative f) => (a -> f a') -> (Maybe a, b) -> f (Maybe a', b)
23:45:04 <shachaf> olsner: edwardk is doing a talk thing on Wednesday which will be recorded.
23:45:08 <elliott> also you have things like "traverse" is a valid traversal (multilens)
23:45:24 <olsner> shachaf: talks are boring!
23:45:27 <elliott> traverse :: (Traversal t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f b -- fits the pattern of both/just
23:45:34 <elliott> traverse :: (Traversal t, Applicative f) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) -- fits the pattern of both/just
23:45:50 -!- ared_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:46:27 <elliott> olsner: hope i've sufficiently bamboozled you
23:47:38 <olsner> the readme at https://github.com/ekmett/lens was a decent introduction too
23:48:33 <shachaf> traverse :: Traversable t => Traversal (t a) (t b) a b
23:49:22 <elliott> olsner: anyway once you have all this infrastructure you can do cool things
23:49:30 <elliott> like a generic type-safe zipper for any type: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/lens/3.7.0.1/doc/html/Control-Lens-Zipper.html
23:54:52 <shachaf> What's a non-type-safe zipper?
23:56:32 <elliott> iirc pez is not "type-safe"
23:59:35 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Radixal!!!!
23:59:37 <ais523> tell me what you think
00:01:05 <Gregor> “Although any sort of crash is acceptable and complies with the spec, we recommend segfaults, or on Windows, Blue Screens of Death.” lul
00:04:05 <Gregor> OK, I got to the first operation and now my head is spinning.
00:05:14 <Gregor> I'm not convinced that this language is implementable, since it actually has to perform the integer->digit string conversion to operate, and that operation is both incomplete and of unknown complexity.
00:05:37 <elliott> ais523: nice my irc client doesn't include the !s
00:06:19 <elliott> Radixal!!!! is an esoteric language created collaboratively by the #esoteric IRC channel on 7 December Category:2012.
00:06:55 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Radixal%21%21%21%21
00:07:28 <Gregor> “Radixal!!!! is not obviously either Turing-complete, or not Turing-complete”
00:12:58 <oerjan> isn't it also a problem that integer->digit is ambiguous?
00:14:16 <oerjan> ok there's a specification of which is chosen...
00:15:02 <Sgeo|web> I don't see how it's dififcult
00:15:12 <Sgeo|web> Is it possible to go over base 10?
00:15:13 <olsner> is it possible for same-length digit strings in different bases to have the same digit sum?
00:15:16 <Sgeo|web> If not, just try all the bases
00:16:23 <olsner> hmm, I read it as being arbitrarily large bases
00:16:46 <oerjan> olsner: "The accepted digits are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9"
00:16:50 <olsner> i.e. that the source is limited to base 10, but the internal representation is arbitrary-precision
00:17:08 <oerjan> olsner: the base is always 1+largest digit
00:17:34 <Sgeo|web> Let's say I want to encode the number eleven
00:18:39 <Sgeo|web> And since "102" contains the digit for base-1, it works
00:18:44 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Show a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> ShowS
00:18:51 <Sgeo|web> Although makes sense to keep checking for smaller working strings, I think
00:19:07 <Sgeo|web> Or maybe it should try in other direction, so strings would be smaller?
00:19:12 <Bike> hm, 23 should work too
00:19:34 <Sgeo|web> Oh, "lowest total sum of digits" hmm
00:19:46 <Sgeo|web> What happens if there's a tie?
00:20:13 <oerjan> @define radixals n = [rep | b <- [2..9], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", maximum rep == [show (b-1)]]
00:20:49 <Bike> i guess 102 would be the canonical version, then?
00:20:51 <oerjan> @define radixals n = [rep | b <- [2..9], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", maximum rep == [show (b-1)]]
00:20:53 <Sgeo|web> What happens if there's a tie among shortest?
00:21:16 <oerjan> @let radixals n = [rep | b <- [2..9], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", maximum rep == [show (b-1)]]
00:21:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Char' with actual type `[t0...
00:21:38 <oerjan> @let radixals n = [rep | b <- [2..9], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", [maximum rep] == show (b-1)]
00:22:09 <oerjan> @let radixals n = [rep | b <- [3..9], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", [maximum rep] == show (b-1)]
00:22:36 <Bike> > radixals 432
00:23:40 <Sgeo|web> Wait, how does that definition work? Is b a base (in which case where is 10) or is b a digit (in which case where is 2)?
00:24:32 <olsner> I suspect that showIntAtBase takes a base
00:24:56 <Bike> > radixals 1999
00:25:13 <oerjan> @let radixals n = [rep | b <- [3..10], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", [maximum rep] == show (b-1)]
00:25:29 <Bike> >radixals 1999
00:25:49 <Bike> > radixals 1999
00:25:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:26:06 <fizzie> Let's radixal like it's 1999?
00:26:28 <oerjan> well this cannot possibly be hard work, so someone is abusing lambdabot elsewhere
00:27:08 <Bike> "1999" is the answer.
00:27:10 <Sgeo|web> Oh, that would show up as [] I guess
00:27:38 <lambdabot> ["2202001","133033","30444","3717","1999"]
00:27:46 <Bike> or, i guess it's not! oops.
00:28:21 <oerjan> 2202001 has the smallest sum
00:28:26 <elliott> oerjan: you need more exclamation marks.
00:28:30 <olsner> hmm, maybe base 3 always wins
00:28:51 <oerjan> @let r!!!!x = radixals x
00:29:10 <lambdabot> ["2202112","133130","13152","5603","3734"]
00:29:20 <Bike> > radixals!!!! 5
00:29:34 <Bike> wait, what did I do wrong...
00:29:38 <Bike> oh. yes. silly me.
00:30:35 <Bike> > radixals!!!! 8
00:32:16 <Bike> i suppose it doesn't "win" if the base-3 doesn't work anyway.
00:32:30 <elliott> oh i guess 15 in base 6 is 11?
00:32:37 <elliott> i like how you can't do 10
00:32:46 <Bike> yeah, some numbers aren't representable, so
00:32:52 <elliott> > filter (null . radixals) [0..]
00:33:00 <olsner> Bike: yeah, so the lowest possible base perhaps?
00:33:01 <oerjan> > radixals!!!! 9 -- i think this won't be base 3 :P
00:34:05 <oerjan> i'm sure there must be something which doesn't give the lowest possible base
00:34:21 <olsner> ISTR that the optimal base (in terms of lowest number of digits on average) is e
00:34:59 <olsner> which is not exactly the same as the lowest digit sum, but fewer digits helps I guess
00:35:07 <oerjan> now i'm wondering if the tie breaker is sure to work
00:36:33 <Bike> so, find two strings that have the same number of digits, the same digital sum, and are both totes radixal strings, I guess
00:36:49 <olsner> indeed, "The base e is the most economical choice of radix β > 1 (Hayes 2001), where the radix economy is measured as the product of the radix and the length of the string of symbols needed to express a given range of values."
00:37:18 <oerjan> > [radixals!!!! n | n <- [0..]]
00:37:20 <lambdabot> [[],[],["2"],["3"],["4"],["12","5"],["20","6"],["21","13","7"],["22","8"],[...
00:37:36 <oerjan> > [radixals!!!! n | n <- [9..]]
00:37:38 <lambdabot> [["14","9"],[],["102","23","15"],["30"],["31","16"],["112","32","24"],["120...
00:38:18 <lambdabot> ["22121022020212200","13112330310111","223101104124","20130035113","3026236...
00:38:40 <oerjan> > [radixals!!!! n | n <- [15..]]
00:38:42 <lambdabot> [["120","33","17"],["121"],["122","25","18"],["200"],["201","103","34","19"...
00:38:42 <Bike> olsner: what about negative bases, huh!
00:38:55 <elliott> oerjan: imo define a reverse function
00:39:12 <oerjan> > [radixals!!!! n | n <- [19..]]
00:39:14 <lambdabot> [["201","103","34","19"],["202","40","26"],["210","41"],["211","42"],["212"...
00:39:17 <Bike> can't you just filter it to do the test for you
00:42:46 <oerjan> > [r' | n <- [0..], let r = radixals!!!!n; sm = minimum[sum(fromEnum r)]; r' = [s|s <- r, sum(fromEnum r) == sm]]
00:42:48 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
00:44:26 <oerjan> > [r' | n <- [0..], let r = radixals!!!!n; sm = minimum[sum(fromEnum<$>s)|s<-r]; r' = [s|s <- r, sum(fromEnum<$>s) == sm]]
00:44:28 <lambdabot> [[],[],["2"],["3"],["4"],["5"],["6"],["7"],["8"],["9"],[],["23"],["30"],["3...
00:45:33 <oerjan> that's of course wrong...
00:47:00 <olsner> looks like 2 wins about 99.2% of the first million integers
00:47:09 <olsner> and only 31 of them were impossible?
00:47:33 <fizzie> Both sum to 5, both have a length of 5.
00:47:52 <fizzie> Five, ten; what matter.
00:48:08 <Bike> well, five is 10 in base five
00:48:09 <Bike> so it's all good
00:48:11 <fizzie> (Found by a really crummy filter, that's why I did it in private.)
00:48:11 <olsner> hmm, nm, I forgot to sort by digit sum
00:48:14 <oerjan> ais523: your tie breaking is insufficient
00:49:18 <oerjan> @tell ais523 742 has two representations ["23212","10432"] that your tie breaking won't distinguish
00:50:02 <shachaf> 16:46 <elliott> newtype NonEmpty f a = NonEmpty a (f a)
00:50:21 <elliott> shachaf: It would be a good idea!!!
00:51:21 <oerjan> fizzie: hey my filter was even crummier! it didn't even work!
00:51:27 <Jafet> That's an advanced newtype
00:51:45 <olsner> if it's ambiguous it should just crash according to the same rule as binary numbers
00:52:58 <fizzie> oerjan: Mine only looked at cases where there were exactly two representations, and had a (\[a,b] -> ...) in it. :/
00:53:31 <elliott> fizzie: I bet you could use: LENS.
00:53:39 <fizzie> The opposite of fancy, I'd say.
00:54:19 <oerjan> elliott: could you educate fizzie on the meaning of OKAY, fancy and shocking plz?
00:54:34 <Gregor> ais523: I missed any/everything since my initial comments, but I don't see any reply by you, sooooooo.
00:54:43 <oerjan> understanding them yourself is optional.
00:55:46 <oerjan> (hm you might want to add that one)
00:55:48 <olsner> Gregor: what will you call your competitor for Radixal!!!!?
00:59:24 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
00:59:31 <oerjan> > [n | n <- [0..], null(radicals!!!!n)]
00:59:34 <GreyKnight> <zzo38> Is there any 3D modeling that you can write x^2+y^2+z^2=25 and it will work?
00:59:34 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
00:59:34 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
00:59:50 <oerjan> > [n | n <- [0..], null(radicals!!!!n)]
00:59:51 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
00:59:51 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:00:13 <oerjan> > [n | n <- [0..], []==radicals!!!!n]
01:00:14 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:00:14 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:00:15 <kmc> i don't remember if the old Mac OS graphing calculator could do that
01:00:22 <kmc> it was pretty sweet though
01:00:28 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:00:28 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:02:12 <oerjan> > let radixals=undefined;_!!!!n = [rep | b <- [3..10], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", [maximum rep] == show (b-1)] in [n | n <- [0..], []==radicals!!!!n]
01:02:13 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:02:13 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:02:20 <oerjan> > let radixals=undefined;_!!!!n = [rep | b <- [3..10], let rep = showIntAtBase b intToDigit n "", [maximum rep] == show (b-1)] in [n | n <- [0..], []==radicals!!!!n]
01:02:21 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:02:22 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:02:34 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:02:34 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:02:53 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:02:53 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:03:03 <elliott> your complaint has been relayed.
01:03:08 <oerjan> GreyKnight: i think lambdabot is seriously broken at the moment
01:03:36 <olsner> hmm, these numbers are not entirely without patterns (nonradixals in the first 100000): [10,36,37,40,81,82,85,256,280,20776,27216,27217,27300,27301]
01:03:40 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:03:40 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:04:33 <oerjan> GreyKnight: a quantum amount
01:04:50 <lambdabot> Could not find module `Data.Monoid.Lens'
01:04:50 <lambdabot> It is a member of the hidden pack...
01:05:48 <oerjan> olsner: hm a lot at about 27000
01:05:57 <GreyKnight> olsner: not in OEIS (is it interesting enough to submit?)
01:09:30 <fungot> GreyKnight: 53. file://localhost/ mnt/ space/ media/ books/ 1000+sci-fi%20books/%5bebooks%5d%201000+%20sciencefiction%20%26%20fantasy%20novels%20%28.lit%20forma/ pratchett%2c%20terry/ text/ 14/ fnord
01:09:58 <FireFly> a number is radixal if it's expressible as a number in radixal?
01:10:30 <FireFly> Surprisingly few numbers that can't be represented that way
01:10:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:10:59 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: yes this is the radix thing that's been going on for half an hour
01:11:01 * FireFly wonders if Discworld contains lots of URIs
01:11:24 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:11:32 <oerjan> FireFly: to not be a radixal, a numbers representation in each base 3-10 must not contain the largest digit in the base.
01:11:34 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, tomorrow' s vote. i would thus like to see the israeli soldier who has been suspended and the foreign minister, mr michel stated that the council is unwilling to apply the consensus and conciliatory approach that characterize this parliament to draw up a policy to boost economic growth and employment, mark a step in the right direction.
01:12:00 <GreyKnight> fizzie: I think there might be a tiny bug in the discworld style
01:12:14 <oerjan> that gets harder and harder as the numbers get larger
01:12:59 <fizzie> Yeah, they're from elinks -dump or something.
01:14:26 <oerjan> `addquote <GreyKnight> fungot, sing me to sleep <fungot> GreyKnight: 53. file://localhost/ mnt/ space/ media/ books/ 1000+sci-fi%20books/%5bebooks%5d%201000+%20sciencefiction%20%26%20fantasy%20novels%20%28.lit%20forma/ pratchett%2c%20terry/ text/ 14/ fnord <GreyKnight> This is not a very good song
01:14:28 <fungot> oerjan: mr president-in-office, not allied forces, mr president-in-office, two initiatives: the french, the belgians and the irish referendum and that is to say, ' mary, you are preparing to vote for or against a government in any case, all pay merits work. this situation cannot be allowed to increase under any circumstances, be resolved without difficulty. slovenia has proved particularly mature in its consensual and moderate
01:14:30 <HackEgo> 864) <GreyKnight> fungot, sing me to sleep <fungot> GreyKnight: 53. file://localhost/ mnt/ space/ media/ books/ 1000+sci-fi%20books/%5bebooks%5d%201000+%20sciencefiction%20%26%20fantasy%20novels%20%28.lit%20forma/ pratchett%2c%20terry/ text/ 14/ fnord <GreyKnight> This is not a very good song
01:14:49 <fizzie> Now my shame is immortal. :/
01:15:04 <HackEgo> 499) <fizzie> That's the stupidest thing I've heard all morning. (Though I did wake up five minutes ago, so I haven't had a chance to hear very much.) <fizzie> The "Why are you still asleep? I told the cat to wake you up." comment does come pretty close, though.
01:15:50 <HackEgo> 57) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
01:15:50 <HackEgo> 845) <tswett> But let's ignore the fact that i doesn't exist. Is it even or odd?
01:15:50 <HackEgo> 718) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
01:15:51 <HackEgo> 527) <elliott> well, oerjan has a lot of opinions on this, so I'll hand it over to him
01:16:35 <ais523> oerjan: bleh, I meant to put a tiebreak on the tiebreak, but forgot
01:16:35 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:17:10 <GreyKnight> I don't know if I get a vote, but if so, rm 718
01:17:19 <oerjan> it's tiebreaks all the way down!
01:17:35 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, that quote from me was a continuous chess joke btw
01:18:01 <HackEgo> 7) <SimonRC> TODO: sex life \ 436) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
01:18:19 <HackEgo> 249) <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult \ 284) <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones. \ 358) <Gregor> You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P <Gregor> Every year I go to ISMM
01:18:21 <lambdabot> oerjan said 29m 3s ago: 742 has two representations ["23212","10432"] that your tie breaking won't distinguish
01:18:32 * ais523 adds tiebreak to tiebreak
01:18:52 <elliott> what if you used the redundant representations to express the inexpressable numbers.
01:19:27 <ais523> but the inexpressable numbers are the whole point
01:19:29 <Gregor> I didn't know I was supposed to @tell X_X
01:19:32 <ais523> do you like my output method, btw?
01:19:45 <ais523> it can't do prime codepoints, nor certain nonprime codepoints either
01:19:45 <Gregor> <Gregor> I'm not convinced that this language is implementable, since it actually has to perform the integer->digit string conversion to operate, and that operation is both incomplete and of unknown complexity.
01:19:48 <olsner> there are like 7 bases left over for each representable number
01:20:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> well, oerjan has a lot of opinions on this, so I'll hand it over to him
01:20:13 <elliott> ais523: that is pretty good except (a) you forgot a ")" (b) it doesn't involve !
01:20:27 <elliott> but making cat impossible is very cool and stupid
01:20:34 <ais523> you can make an approximate cat
01:20:34 <Sgeo|web> Gregor, the operation is clearly doable fairly easily, so what does complexity have to do with it? The language might be slow?
01:20:41 <ais523> which chooses similar-looking codepoints
01:21:18 -!- greyooze has joined.
01:21:26 <ais523> Gregor: it's complete, there's no way to come up with an unrepresentable number
01:21:32 <ais523> because all the numbers are generated by converting back from digit strings
01:21:46 <greyooze> <GreyKnight> Phantom_Hoover: hm okay that context makes it better
01:21:47 <ais523> and if they're strings of 0s and 1s, we add an extra non-0 non-1 digit at the start
01:21:50 <greyooze> <GreyKnight> (continuous chess covers a multitude of sins)
01:22:16 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
01:22:31 <ais523> I imagine there aren't many unrepresentable numbers as you get higher up
01:22:39 <ais523> they'd have to be represented only with 0s and 1s in /every/ base
01:22:39 <Gregor> I guess the operation isn't that difficult, too… just go from base 10 down and choose whichever one works, if any.
01:23:01 <ais523> yeah, you basically only need to convert it to 8 different bases then compare
01:23:08 <Sgeo|web> Gregor: yes. If you've been paying attention, we implemented it and played with it quite a bit
01:23:11 <HackEgo> 756) <kmc> haters gonna make som valid points
01:23:15 <olsner> ais523: how about extending it to arbitrary bases instead of only going to base 10?
01:23:17 <Gregor> Sgeo|web: I haven't ;)
01:23:26 <Gregor> I was driving, making a phone call, ...
01:23:28 <oerjan> ais523: olsner found a surprising number just above 27000
01:23:41 <greyooze> also, I thought 527 was kind of funny because elliott is calling someone else opinionated ;-)
01:23:41 -!- greyooze has changed nick to GreyKnight.
01:23:51 <HackEgo> 517) <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I really need to institute dwarven birth control.
01:23:54 <elliott> GreyKnight: it makes more sense in context
01:23:54 -!- Gregor has changed nick to TheSmooze.
01:23:58 <HackEgo> 434) <Vorpal> ais523, how are we supposed to guess before you tell us unless you give us more hints?
01:23:58 <HackEgo> 830) <oklopol> my best guess is 4 years ago but possibly also yesterday
01:23:59 <HackEgo> 110) <alise> cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment <alise> and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other.
01:24:22 <kmc> the cornballer!
01:24:29 <ais523> 830 and 110 are both good
01:24:39 <ais523> I don't really like 517 or 756
01:24:54 <ais523> although 756 is better out of those
01:25:08 <oerjan> <ais523> they'd have to be represented only with 0s and 1s in /every/ base <-- no, just not use the largest digit of the base
01:25:09 <elliott> 434 is there to mock vorpal more or less
01:25:51 <TheSmooze> So, the tiebreaker should choose the shortest (first priority), lowest base (second priority), yes?
01:26:29 <oerjan> <greyooze> also, I thought 527 was kind of funny because elliott is calling someone else opinionated ;-) <-- no the joke is i don't have any opinions
01:26:31 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I really need to institute dwarven birth control.
01:26:32 <elliott> someone who hasn't been around Vorpal can't vote on mocks of him, of course
01:26:45 <elliott> oerjan: the joke is mainly the person I was getting to talk to you.
01:26:50 <GreyKnight> I met Vorpal a little bit in #feather-lang
01:27:09 <HackEgo> 226) <ais523> gah, why does lose keep winning?
01:27:10 <HackEgo> 287) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it. \ 324) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 327) <monqy> `quote django
01:27:25 <GreyKnight> it wasn't that bad, maybe I didn't get the full experience :-?
01:27:39 <elliott> Vorpal stopped being bad and started being boring so now we grudgingly accept his presence
01:27:45 <elliott> @tell Vorpal hi was just talking about you today!!
01:27:49 <elliott> thought he was in the channel but in fact he wasn't
01:27:54 <HackEgo> 802) <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
01:27:54 <HackEgo> 454) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
01:27:54 <HackEgo> 659) <monqy> i cnat eve begin to understand what you meant with that "one"
01:27:54 <HackEgo> 424) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
01:27:59 <ais523> and zeroth priority is lowest sum of digits
01:28:05 <ais523> basically, because it's harder to game than other tiebreaks would be
01:28:13 <elliott> when was I funny enough to come up with 802
01:28:18 <elliott> this must be some other elliott
01:28:29 <ais523> and indeed out of character for you
01:28:38 <ais523> `pastlog survive an apocalypse.*bitcoins
01:28:50 <ais523> let's hope it hits the original quote, rather than the addquote
01:28:58 <Sgeo|web> `pastelog survive an apocalypse.*bitcoins
01:29:04 <FireFly> I like the recommended rejection method for binary numbers in Radixal programs
01:29:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8553
01:29:37 <TheSmooze> <ais523> and zeroth priority is lowest sum of digits // I don't like this
01:29:40 <elliott> anyway i like all thoes quotes
01:29:48 <elliott> 659 is probably bad but it amuses me
01:30:06 <ais523> I don't know why 454 is funny, but it is
01:30:07 <TheSmooze> Because then we acknowledge that unrepresentable numbers exist.
01:30:15 <TheSmooze> Since they might be the sum of digits.
01:30:22 <HackEgo> 309) <tswett> Grr. Why does it exist? Why can't I kill it?
01:30:30 <ais523> TheSmooze: it's fine to acknowledge that, we acknowledge them on input too
01:30:37 <ais523> monqy: well it looks like an innuendo
01:30:43 <ais523> that's inherently funny
01:31:08 <HackEgo> 697) <fungot> [...] we choose only die fittest people of nigeria [...]
01:31:11 <HackEgo> 373) <coppro> elliott: actually, it's worse right now, I'm in the USA <coppro> where the solution to counterfeiting problems is "add more ink" <coppro> eventually all US bills will just be solid green
01:31:12 <HackEgo> 86) <Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ...
01:31:12 <HackEgo> 719) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN
01:31:19 <GreyKnight> I don't see how it looks like an innuendo either TBH
01:31:25 <ais523> btw, we've deleted approximately 31 quotes over approximately the last 6 months
01:31:41 <ais523> the `pastelog shows the quote number decreasing
01:31:55 <lambdabot> cheater says: and i'm kinda like an ad-hoc dr phil.
01:31:56 <olsner> how many have we added in the same time?
01:32:00 <elliott> i think we deleted all of cheater's quotes
01:32:09 <GreyKnight> maybe we should get pizza and have a deletion party :>
01:32:11 <lambdabot> cheater says: drupal is a bit like working with the facebook api while someone keeps dropping concussion grenades in your office
01:32:23 <Sgeo|web> ais523: but quotes higher than that one won't show up as part of that quote's decrease
01:32:23 <elliott> it's not very good for a fungot quote
01:32:25 <fungot> elliott: i welcome the initiative that has been developed mainly to fill the jobs in our countries are too reliant on connections to russia, but to the level of youth unemployment. in this connection, i should also like to congratulate the irish presidency for the clarification it has given before, is discrimination, because it allows people to enter the european union
01:32:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <fungot> [...] we choose only die fittest people of nigeria [...]
01:32:33 <ais523> Sgeo|web: that's why "approximately"
01:32:39 <elliott> ais523: you could just look at `help
01:32:42 <elliott> or even hg log inside the vm
01:32:47 <GreyKnight> 697 or 309 (might be funnier with context)
01:32:55 <HackEgo> 195) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
01:32:55 <lambdabot> No quotes match. My mind is going. I can feel it.
01:32:56 <HackEgo> 190) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
01:32:57 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
01:33:21 <HackEgo> 394) <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, living in the future sucks. <Phantom_Hoover> The past just keeps coming up to us and trying to make us feel guilty.
01:33:21 <HackEgo> 479) <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
01:33:24 <HackEgo> 190) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
01:33:38 <ais523> has this ever happened before, and do we have rules for it?
01:33:57 <ais523> but 191 might be really good
01:33:58 <olsner> we could draw another quote, but then we've broken the rule of five
01:34:05 <shachaf> How many quotes are there?
01:34:14 <HackEgo> 191) <fizzie> The Perl script is probably slower than the Befunge code.
01:34:19 <ais523> `addquote <shachaf> How many quotes are there?
01:34:22 <HackEgo> 862) <shachaf> How many quotes are there?
01:34:46 <HackEgo> *poof* <shachaf> How many quotes are there?
01:34:50 <ais523> (this is /totally/ the official way to count quotes)
01:35:04 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, you are right, mr president! the pensioners' party, who have been, so to speak, i will try to prevent this eventuality, they want to do together.
01:35:08 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 15) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 17) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 62)
01:35:11 <oerjan> ais523: but you got a race condition on the number!
01:35:17 <elliott> 01:33:38 <ais523> has this ever happened before, and do we have rules for it?
01:35:22 <elliott> the rule is to start from scratch I think
01:35:30 <ais523> OK, that's a sensible rule
01:35:35 <olsner> delete the quote database and start over?
01:35:36 <GreyKnight> The pensioners' party want to do together :-o Try to prevent that eventuality, fungot!
01:35:37 <fungot> GreyKnight: mr president, i too handled asbestos when making and connecting pipes and tubing. in retrospect, i probably consumed incredible amounts of fibres, threads and cloth and also the rapporteur's proposed resolution, i should like to ask you whether, in the past.
01:35:39 <ais523> shachaf: stop botspamming
01:35:51 <HackEgo> 437) <elliott> in the title of the page it says "Well-Typed - The Haskell Consultants" but i want to know who are the haskell conraisins?
01:35:59 <HackEgo> 469) <itidus20> anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane
01:36:51 <ais523> 437 is not a good pun and it even doesn't work
01:37:24 <olsner> I think we have like 15 `quotes queued now
01:37:39 <HackEgo> 682) <tswett> Hey, I found Gregor on Spokeo. He's a married black male in his late 50s who lives in an apartment worth about $37,000. He did not go to college and works in sales. <tswett> He lives in Detroit. <tswett> I... think we might have found the wrong one.
01:37:42 <HackEgo> 314) <zzo38> <elliott> <quintopia> i know it's unusual, but i agree with you both to some extent
01:37:43 <HackEgo> 276) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
01:37:55 <HackEgo> 201) <Phatom__Hovver> LoTR actually compresses pretty well into a film; the large amount of description becomes unnecessary. <pikh> LotR would compress pretty well into a book; the large amount of description *is* unnecessary.
01:37:57 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:38:05 <HackEgo> 438) <zzo38> If in some day, I publish some book, that might include some of the programs I have written too, but also some other books, possibly. However I never yet publish any book.
01:38:11 <HackEgo> 36) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
01:38:14 <HackEgo> 127) <Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
01:38:41 <shachaf> Why can't HackEgo be more like lambdabot?
01:38:56 <ais523> shachaf: why can't it be more like, say, heptagram or nickserv, too?
01:39:12 <HackEgo> 282) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
01:39:13 <shachaf> ais523: All good questions.
01:39:17 <monqy> why can't hackego be more like shachaf
01:39:27 <shachaf> monqy: did you learn lens yet
01:39:29 <GreyKnight> Sometimes I suspect zzo38 of being a bot
01:39:31 <HackEgo> 808) <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday.
01:39:42 -!- Bike has left.
01:39:47 <HackEgo> 424) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
01:39:47 <ais523> zzo38 is reasonably hard to imitate, although you can imitate him if you want to anyway
01:39:49 <HackEgo> 529) <Phantom_Hoover> OK, making myself emergency doctor on the advice of IRC.
01:39:54 <FireFly> EgoBot: did you learn lens yet?
01:39:57 <HackEgo> 185) <Sgeo> Oh. Stuff that uses actual physical numbers stemming from science. Bleh *gets bored*
01:40:01 <HackEgo> 172) <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
01:40:28 <HackEgo> 449) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, the origin of suffering is desire for e-book readers.
01:40:29 <tswett> EgoBot: I miss you, too!
01:40:35 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
01:40:35 <tswett> EgoBot: where are you?
01:40:46 <HackEgo> 851) <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
01:40:47 <HackEgo> 340) <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! <CakeProphet> I have the weirdest boner right now.
01:40:47 <HackEgo> 36) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
01:41:13 <elliott> TheSmooze: kill HackEgo plz
01:41:16 <elliott> or we will never get it synchronised
01:41:19 <ais523> 851 actually made me laugh out loud (in real life)
01:41:29 <ais523> mostly because of the <zzo38>, admittedly
01:41:51 <ais523> 340 is the worst there
01:42:01 <GreyKnight> good, because that was the funny part of it
01:42:12 <ais523> elliott: it might not be
01:42:17 <ais523> remember it's asynchronous
01:42:20 <elliott> `echo im really reallydone
01:42:22 <shachaf> @@ @echo @echo @echo @echo
01:42:23 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo @echo @
01:42:23 <lambdabot> echo"]} rest:"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\"
01:42:23 <lambdabot> :@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo\"]} rest:\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\"freenode\\\", msgLBName = \\\"lambdabot\\\", msgPrefix = \\\"shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf\\\", msgCommand = \\\"
01:42:23 <lambdabot> PRIVMSG\\\", msgParams = [\\\"#esoteric\\\",\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo\\\"]} rest:\\\"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \\\\\\\"freenode\\\\\\\", msgLBName = \\\\\\\"lambdabot\\\\\\\", msgPrefix
01:42:23 <lambdabot> = \\\\\\\"shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf\\\\\\\", msgCommand = \\\\\\\"PRIVMSG\\\\\\\", msgParams = [\\\\\\\"#esoteric\\\\\\\",\\\\\\\":@@ @echo @echo @echo @echo\\\\\\\"]} rest:\\\\\\\"\\\\\\
01:42:47 <monqy> shachaf............................................
01:42:49 <elliott> okay i will assume HackEgo synchronised up now
01:42:59 <ais523> can I delete 340 anyway?
01:43:01 <HackEgo> 179) <tswett> That is the mark of Gregor right there. <ais523> tswett: except that Gregor didn't write that <tswett> It's still the mark of Gregor.
01:43:08 <lambdabot> @ executes plugin invocations in its arguments, parentheses can be used.
01:43:08 <lambdabot> The commands are right associative.
01:43:08 <lambdabot> is the same as: @ (@pl (@undo code))
01:43:28 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
01:43:31 <ais523> elliott: we'll delete it once this quoteset happens
01:43:37 <ais523> so as not to get confused about the numbers
01:43:39 <elliott> ais523: if it ever happens
01:43:48 <HackEgo> 19) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once
01:43:51 <HackEgo> 140) <fungot> Sgeo: hahaah, and i love when they announced it i dare u to press alt f4 and your house ( acts 16:31 your bible)
01:43:53 <HackEgo> 675) <zzo38> The book "Science Made Stupid" ends with a list of things that might happen in the future (some already have), one of them is a woman president. Some things in the list are reasonable but a few are just funny instead.
01:43:53 <HackEgo> 615) <Vorpal> anyway fungot is the only esolang irc bot I know of that doesn't depend on nethack or a similar helper
01:44:10 <HackEgo> *poof* <GregorR> How to make a tasty deep-fried treat: 1) Buy ingredients: Large vat of boiling oil, dry ice and a small Filipino boy. 2) Place Filipino boy in dry ice until frozen solid. 3) Shatter now-frozen Filipino boy into boiling oil. 4) Wait fifteen minutes, drain and enjoy! <CakeProphet> I have the weirdest boner right now.
01:44:13 <elliott> ais523: now we'll just get confused about the numbers in this batch
01:44:27 <elliott> i'll just use the old numbers to talk about them
01:44:32 <ais523> I don't really get 674
01:44:42 <ais523> hmm, it's about middle for fungot, IMO
01:44:43 <fungot> ais523: mr president, the aim of which is to issue a statement making it absolutely clear: wood is an industrial commodity under community law.
01:44:52 <elliott> ais523: it's "acts 16:31 your bible" that makes it
01:45:00 <elliott> like it says some crap and can't even think of a proper citation
01:45:23 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
01:45:24 <ais523> 19 is not really out of character for bsmntbombdood, so I don't see why the alternate universe is required
01:45:39 <elliott> you can't really delete 19
01:45:45 <elliott> without also deleting 10 other classic quotes or so
01:46:00 <elliott> I don't personally like 615 that much
01:46:05 <elliott> 675 isn't that great either tho
01:46:06 <ais523> I'd delete 674, I think
01:46:36 <elliott> can't delete a zzo quote personally
01:46:44 <HackEgo> *poof* <zzo38> The book "Science Made Stupid" ends with a list of things that might happen in the future (some already have), one of them is a woman president. Some things in the list are reasonable but a few are just funny instead.
01:46:57 <ais523> the thing with fungot and zzo quotes
01:46:57 <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:47:07 <ais523> is that those people say a lot of good quotable things
01:47:11 <ais523> like that one, for instance
01:47:15 <fungot> GreyKnight: down comforter! vectors are no match for " fnord
01:47:26 <ais523> and yet people sometimes quote the bad ones instead :(
01:47:44 <lambdabot> companion_cube says: why bother with complicated abstractions like monads, when you can enjoy the taste of the sun on your skin?
01:47:47 <ais523> `addquote [after a session of saying five quotes and deleting one] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:47:48 <fungot> ais523: in this case is a huge installed base out there, whatever it's failings? :) i'm implementing the rabin-miller strong pseudoprime test, etc.
01:47:50 <HackEgo> 10) <Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
01:48:00 <HackEgo> 860) [after a session of saying five quotes and deleting one] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:48:13 <ais523> `addquote [after a session of requesting five quotes and deleting one] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:48:14 <fungot> ais523: this sucks. eval evaluates my sexp on top level. no such semantics exists. cps is inherently a monadic entity. if you
01:48:22 <HackEgo> *poof* [after a session of saying five quotes and deleting one] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:48:41 <elliott> how about just "after a quote deletion session"
01:48:48 <Sgeo|web> That is seriously shockingly coherent for fungot
01:48:49 <fungot> Sgeo|web: and the smooth stream in smoother numbers fnord that hasn't come up one single time i try i get new messages.) to google, some eileen cohen died last may.
01:48:54 <ais523> but I'm really confused about the async dependencies now
01:48:56 <HackEgo> 565) <ais523> if all my Facebook friends were to visit a page, it wouldn't make any difference at all
01:48:56 <HackEgo> 678) <Phantom_Hoover> Here in Scotland we have a rigorous and well-tested theory of brothels.
01:48:58 <HackEgo> 399) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that <Sgeo> Or, at least, my toilet looks different
01:48:58 <HackEgo> 778) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
01:49:09 <HackEgo> 861) [after a session of requesting five quotes and deleting one] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:49:16 <ais523> haha, it's 861 as well
01:49:52 <ais523> the conflict was resolved the correct way after all
01:49:57 <ais523> if I add another quote now it'll be 860
01:50:08 <ais523> `addquote [after a quote deletion session] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:50:09 <fungot> ais523: why not? is there a way to transmit any information between two numbers, and outputs a scheme program. in this case
01:50:11 <HackEgo> 860) [after a quote deletion session] <fungot> ais523: i just checked, and the whole purpose of this is not necessary....
01:50:19 <elliott> ais523: well it is meant to say *poof*
01:50:23 <elliott> your delquotes actually did nothing
01:50:27 <ais523> for the first delquote
01:50:31 <elliott> 01:49:22 <ais523> `delquote 860
01:50:32 <elliott> 01:49:28 <HackEgo> No output.
01:50:32 <elliott> 01:49:29 <ais523> `delquote 860
01:50:32 <elliott> 01:49:33 <HackEgo> No output.
01:50:38 <ais523> those were the second and third
01:50:49 <ais523> which were intended to do nothing if the conflict went the right way
01:50:52 <HackEgo> 62) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys)
01:50:53 <ais523> and to fix it if it went the wrong way
01:50:54 <HackEgo> 108) <fungot> [...] i'm a law student so i am loving my bread machine
01:51:09 <ais523> 108 is also quite good
01:51:18 <HackEgo> 754) <ais523> and then I spent much of the rest of the time trying to work out how to implement 3D Hashlife efficiently when at least one of the colors has free will
01:51:18 <ais523> I can imagine fungot proudly standing over its bread machine
01:51:19 <fungot> ais523: it does... on edwin it doesn't for me. i could case me through it, with which i'm unfamiliar?
01:51:21 <olsner> 108 is better than 62 I think
01:51:24 <HackEgo> 359) <Phantom_Hoover> The eigenratio of reality has to be enormous, though.
01:51:26 <HackEgo> 382) <Gregor> "<Gregor> Damn right!" wouldn't be much of a quote :P
01:51:38 <ais523> 754 is good, and I still want to know the solution to that
01:51:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:51:54 <ais523> I was going to say 382 too
01:52:12 <HackEgo> *poof* <Gregor> "<Gregor> Damn right!" wouldn't be much of a quote :P
01:52:12 <GreyKnight> I kind of want to know the solution to 754 as well :-o
01:52:12 <Sgeo|web> How does a color have free will?
01:52:26 <ais523> Sgeo|web: if there's a human controlling what it does
01:52:27 <HackEgo> 721) <fizzie> Quinary computers replace the cache with a quiche.
01:52:37 <ais523> GreyKnight: this is related to elliottcraft
01:53:07 <kmc> silly humans thinking they have free wil
01:53:11 <HackEgo> 771) <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
01:53:11 <HackEgo> 354) <ais523> I think I managed something like a one-expression increment that was only a few hundred characters long
01:53:14 <HackEgo> 385) <NihilistDandy> elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/
01:53:14 <ais523> which is, basically, something I've been inventing which has a very slight resemblance to minecraft, and also a slight resemblance to Rubicon
01:53:19 <HackEgo> 89) <Miya> I perceived it so hard I actually went away :O
01:53:28 <ais523> and is named after elliott rather than me because it's rare to name personal projects after someone else
01:53:59 <ais523> those are all good IMO
01:54:01 <GreyKnight> well, I like minecraft, rubicon, and Life, so this can only lead to good things
01:54:19 <ais523> it doesn't hurt my head nearly as much as Feather
01:54:28 <ais523> it's just "this is too big a task for me", rather than "ouch stop thinking about it"
01:55:28 <monqy> elliott: idk but what's a mouse obeying the law of the excluded middle supposed to mean
01:55:38 <elliott> monqy: that's a good question
01:55:53 <ais523> monqy: it means that either the mouse, or not the mouse
01:56:01 <elliott> `pastlog <NihilistDandy> elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/
01:56:28 <ais523> Sgeo|web: it's like `log except not today
01:56:39 <ais523> pastlog and pastelog both being commands is annoying
01:56:42 <lambdabot> cheater says: drupal is a bit like working with the facebook api while someone keeps dropping concussion grenades in your office
01:56:43 <lambdabot> cheater says: let's all just delete haskell from our hdds and drink mercury
01:56:43 <ais523> because one looks like a typo for the other
01:56:43 <lambdabot> cheater says: and i'm kinda like an ad-hoc dr phil.
01:56:44 <lambdabot> cheater says: every time kmc trolls, i troll through his actions.
01:56:44 <lambdabot> cheater says: let's all just delete haskell from our hdds and drink mercury
01:56:46 <ais523> also pastlog often doesn't work
01:56:49 <Sgeo|web> It's a command that hasn't worked the times I saw it tried to be used
01:56:50 <olsner> should call it pastalog or passedlog
01:56:56 <ais523> due to hackego timing out
01:57:08 <ais523> shachaf: please stop bot abusing
01:57:24 -!- greyooze has joined.
01:57:26 <ais523> there's a difference between running commands because the output is interesting / aids a conversation
01:57:32 <greyooze> <elliott> and also: the first #esoteric meeting ever <-- that's really never happened?
01:57:33 <ais523> and running commands to try to spam the channel to make a point
01:57:46 <olsner> greyooze: it almost did
01:57:57 <olsner> that time when fizzie was a train
01:58:08 <greyooze> that is the log I am quoting from
01:58:42 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:58:52 -!- greyooze has changed nick to GreyKnight.
01:58:59 <elliott> `pastelogs <NihilistDandy> elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/
01:59:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27584
01:59:32 <olsner> there's some continued discussion later on about other people here who have actually met
01:59:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-07-01
01:59:48 <olsner> I think it was concluded that none of those meetings were #esoteric meetings
02:00:03 <ais523> elliott: it seems to have been mostly out of context
02:00:28 <HackEgo> 202) <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. <j-invariant> HAHA [...] <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something
02:00:30 <elliott> apparently the context is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu6lgNgAH38 o rsomething
02:00:37 <elliott> i have not watched this video
02:00:40 <elliott> i wonder if it is worth watching???
02:00:48 <elliott> preliminary observations suggest no
02:01:07 <ais523> I remember a particularly frustrating argument in another channel
02:01:20 <Sgeo|web> I think context is actually http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myfZ8hmmApE ?
02:01:22 <ais523> where I was trying to explain that I could have a good idea that something wasn't worth watching without watching it
02:01:24 <shachaf> monqy: haskell supports uml though
02:01:26 <elliott> i accidentally did one too many
02:01:31 <elliott> well let's just ignore the last one
02:01:38 <HackEgo> 483) <elliott> I MIGHT BECOME GHOST
02:01:44 <Sgeo|web> Wait, no, firs tlinked video makes more sense
02:01:49 <HackEgo> 602) <Phantom_Hoover> You know what annoys me about Deep Space 9. <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in deep space. <Phantom_Hoover> It was orbiting Bajor.
02:01:59 * ais523 wonders if YouTube has a "random video" button
02:02:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unquote: not found
02:02:04 <ais523> Google needs a "random webpage" button
02:02:26 <olsner> obviously Bajor is in deep space
02:02:38 <HackEgo> 830) <Gregor> My latest FB post: The worst part of floating point math is not the fact that 0.1 + 0.2 yields 0.30000000000000004, but trying to explain to people why their language is horribly broken if 0.1 + 0.2 does NOT yield 0.30000000000000004.
02:02:40 <ais523> well so is Earth, right?
02:02:43 <HackEgo> 405) <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, I guess you could argue so. But to me a it's not a real clobbering if you can still tell there was something that got clobbered.
02:02:43 <HackEgo> 464) <Phantom_Hoover> You realise the micromanagement it took to make quintopia encrust my silver throne with emeralds rather than a jug?
02:02:47 <HackEgo> 152) <Vorpal> dc -e '[a=]P?[b=]P?[dSarLa%d0<a]dsax+[GCD:]Pp' # easier-to-read version
02:03:10 <olsner> hmm, earth isn't even in space, I think
02:03:16 <ais523> 464 is one of the better DF quotes
02:03:33 <ais523> 830 is pretty insightful
02:05:11 <HackEgo> 325) <Gregor> Google Maps has options for "avoid highways" and "avoid tolls", but no "avoid Chicago"
02:06:08 <HackEgo> 821) <kmc> yeah well, petty theft > federal obstruction of justice
02:06:08 <HackEgo> 86) <Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ...
02:06:09 <HackEgo> 417) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
02:06:09 <HackEgo> 431) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace
02:07:40 <olsner> I vote for 821 and 431
02:08:36 <olsner> someone else vote then and we can see who wins
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02:10:43 <ais523> would have typed that faster but things kept stealing focus
02:11:01 <ais523> the latest version of Ubuntu has fixed one focus-stealing monstrosity but added two more
02:11:27 <ais523> shachaf: yeah, 431 is good
02:11:35 <ais523> elliott: I think I'm getting a little bored of pentaquoting, anyway
02:11:36 <Sgeo|web> Is OpenSUSE better than Kubuntu?
02:11:45 <HackEgo> 519) <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sacrificing the animals, then I'm going to bed.
02:11:47 <elliott> ais523: maybe that means there are no bad quotes left
02:12:01 <ais523> most of the DF quotes aren't so great
02:12:24 <ais523> were you /always/ this immature, and I just didn't notice?
02:12:30 <Sgeo|web> o.O shachaf actually listens to me? This is scary.
02:12:32 <ais523> or have you become less mature as you grew up?
02:12:43 <ais523> elliott: I was going to `delquote, but `revert works too
02:12:50 <HackEgo> 184) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
02:12:55 <HackEgo> 339) <Sgeo> Oracle's awesome
02:12:57 <elliott> also I think less unreliable
02:12:58 <HackEgo> 596) <elliott> fizzie: It's like a JIT, if JITs were... strings.
02:12:59 <HackEgo> 603) <fizzie> If you jump a car from a ramp and hit the wall of a building, in midair, you tend to get ejected up and fly to the sky-ceiling, then slowly slide at that height to one corner of the world; then you land, make a complicated spinning-around thing for a while, and then explode. <fizzie> Also probably works in real life?
02:13:22 <elliott> 02:11:45 <HackEgo> 519) <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sacrificing the animals, then I'm going to bed.
02:13:26 <monqy> oh no..what got reverted.....
02:13:26 <elliott> there's also this one in case you missed it
02:13:31 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
02:13:33 <ais523> elliott: I mentioned it tangentially
02:13:43 <ais523> I'd probably delete 339 though
02:13:52 <GreyKnight> I only just reconnected from the last failure! Furrfu
02:14:32 <HackEgo> *poof* <Sgeo> Oracle's awesome
02:14:54 <HackEgo> 629) <Ngevd> It's like single player Hackiki in a way(?) <tswett> Ngevd: yes, but with multiple players.
02:14:54 <HackEgo> 688) <oklopol> i think i'll just take the usual route and go do post doc research somewhere far away and never come back and become a drug lord and kill myself
02:15:29 -!- tswett has left.
02:15:45 <ais523> I like 699 too but not as much
02:15:46 <HackEgo> 797) <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
02:15:48 <HackEgo> 111) <coppro> we'd care about a turing-complete pencil
02:15:50 <HackEgo> 850) <Fiora> omg <Fiora> that JIT is really amazing [...] <Gregor> I hear if you listen carefully to the rustling wind on a warm night with a full moon, you can hear the sound of the JIT building ARM functions.
02:16:00 <ais523> 111 is true but not that funny
02:16:10 <ais523> 850 isn't so great either
02:16:48 <monqy> what does it mean for a pencil to be turing complete....
02:17:00 <ais523> monqy: it's the same concept as USB sushi, really
02:17:58 <ais523> btw, anyone follow tdwtf sidebar? there was the best snoofle post ever today
02:18:15 <HackEgo> *poof* <coppro> we'd care about a turing-complete pencil
02:21:36 <HackEgo> elliott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:22:02 <olsner> "<monqy> hi" has to be a quote
02:22:15 <olsner> lest the meme be forgotten?
02:22:29 <ais523> TheSmooze: does HackEgo have an ignore list? if so, you may want to consider adding shachaf to it
02:22:42 <elliott> it contains exactly one entry
02:22:53 <fungot> ais523: don't use modules i don't like it
02:23:38 <elliott> (http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/hg/index.cgi/file/9fe46bf600be/multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd#l49)
02:23:42 <ais523> TheSmooze: he's been repeatedly spamming bot commands, especially in the middle of conversations / attempts to use other bot commands, mostly using HackEgo, to no real benefit
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02:24:38 <oerjan> `addquote <monqy> what does it mean for a pencil to be turing complete.... <ais523> monqy: it's the same concept as USB sushi, really
02:24:46 <HackEgo> 858) <monqy> what does it mean for a pencil to be turing complete.... <ais523> monqy: it's the same concept as USB sushi, really
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02:24:56 <ais523> oerjan: OK, I like that followup quote
02:25:02 <ais523> even if I was slightly aiming to be quoted there
02:25:06 <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
02:25:09 <ais523> (USB sushi actually does exist, btw)
02:25:17 <ais523> (although it's just sushi with an embedded flash drive)
02:25:33 <elliott> `addquote <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
02:25:37 <elliott> that reminds me of a previous quote
02:25:37 <HackEgo> 859) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
02:25:40 <elliott> although i don't know which
02:27:00 <monqy> there've been a few quotes like that
02:28:38 <olsner> shachaf: are you trying to apply reverse psychology?
02:28:51 <ais523> olsner: if he said either no /or/ yes, would you believe him?
02:30:00 <olsner> if he said yes, I would
02:30:15 <ais523> but you wouldn't if he said no?
02:30:30 <olsner> if he said no I would interpret it as yes and believe him
02:30:51 <ais523> hmm, in which case there isn't much of a point in receiving an answer to the question
02:31:10 <ais523> (it's still useful to some extent for its rhetorical effect)
02:31:17 <olsner> I wonder if there's a name for this kind of question
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02:39:54 <greyooze> <oklofok> lament is so positive and full of hope in the 2003 logs
02:42:36 <greyooze> @tell tswett Wait, are you ihope??
02:46:52 <oerjan> tswett is ihope, also kerlo; elliott is alise, also tusho. or was that the other way around.
02:47:39 <oerjan> i am oerjan, also oerjan_.
02:48:30 <ais523> oh, I forgot about tusho
02:48:39 -!- ais523 has changed nick to scarf.
02:48:45 <scarf> haven't used this nick in a while
02:48:55 <HackEgo> 2012-04-09.txt:20:14:37: -!- oerjan is now known as oerjan__.
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02:49:09 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you also oerjan__?
02:49:17 <olsner> shachaf: no, that's me
02:49:31 <oerjan> i have irssi set only to know about oerjan_, so i dunno why i did that.
02:49:52 <shachaf> I am shachaf, also shachaf_.
02:50:04 <shachaf> My Freenode account is named "Shachaf" for some reason, though.
02:50:10 <shachaf> I guess I was a bad person when I made it.
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02:53:05 <oerjan> poor greyooze will never know the secrets just revealed.
02:55:22 <oerjan> instead he must make up his own false ones
02:56:08 <greyooze> <shachaf> oerjan: Are you also oerjan__?
02:56:13 <greyooze> <olsner> shachaf: no, that's me
02:56:58 <greyooze> zzo38: I wish to examine your gopherhole (nmiaow), can you recommend a client?
03:08:11 <zzo38> greyooze: What operating system?
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03:11:33 <oerjan> someone should recommend an isp instead.
03:11:37 <Fiora> eep. MEMORY_MANAGEMENT bluescreen... I think I'm going to need to run some memtest tonight >_<
03:13:20 -!- TheSmooze has changed nick to Gregor.
03:13:35 <Gregor> “Starting today, we're no longer accepting new sign-ups for the free version of Google Apps (the version you're currently using).”
03:14:00 <Gregor> Takin' all bets on how much time there is between that and “Starting next month, we're canceling all free memberships. You can upgrade for the low low price of money!”
03:16:27 <oerjan> it's ok the world ends in two weeks anyway
03:22:03 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `reflect' (imported from Control.Monad.Logic)
03:22:10 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.Selection module Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.Selection
03:22:10 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.Selection Select :: RenderMode
03:22:45 <oerjan> hm must be a privately defined function
03:37:55 <kmc> google gotta get paid
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03:39:42 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:41:21 <Gregor> So, Radixal!!!! isn't quite what I'd hoped. I was hoping for something similar to MISC, but with an absurdly awkward encoding.
03:43:54 <Bike> misc the oisc? why?
03:44:34 <Gregor> Just fit my imaginings of how this weird-radix language would work.
03:44:56 <Gregor> Main thing is, I don't see a lot of individual digit manipulation, which would have all the deliciously weird effects we want.
03:45:30 <Bike> needs moar intercal operators
03:50:33 <Gregor> I'm kinda not of the esolang design of “pile every weird feature together and see what happens” X-D
03:50:48 <Gregor> I prefer “choose a few particularly weird features and make everything else relatively straightforward”
03:51:13 <Bike> well, i meant the "mingle" operator or whatever it is
03:51:34 <Bike> maybe just have the builtin arithmetic be digit-wise only
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04:20:52 <kmc> did you know that 10.5 / 7 is 1.5?
04:20:54 <kmc> kinda weird
04:24:45 <kmc> that's all
04:25:10 <shachaf> did you know 105/70 is also 1.5?
04:25:33 <Arc_Koen> I'm sure you didn't check that it was right shachaf
04:26:47 <Arc_Koen> kmc: did you know that 0.01 + 0.001 + 0.0002 + 0.00003 + 0.000005 + 0.0000008 + 0.00000013 + ... (fibonacci numbers, shifted one digit to the right every time) is *exactly* equal to 1/89?
04:27:05 <Arc_Koen> well I mean the limit is 1/89 if you take an infinity of numbers
04:27:33 <Arc_Koen> among other things it means that it will repeat after some time
04:29:05 <oerjan> sum(F_n/10^n)/10, hm...
04:30:00 <Arc_Koen> have a good time proving it; if I recall correctly the 89 comes as 10^2-10-1 or something
04:31:52 <Arc_Koen> that's why of the reasons why 89 is my favourite number
04:36:17 <kmc> Arc_Koen: woah
04:36:55 <kmc> so there's a closed form for fibonacci numbers
04:37:13 <shachaf> Arc_Koen: 89 should only be your favorite number if you think 10 is important.
04:37:20 <Bike> eh, why wouldn't there be?
04:37:33 <Arc_Koen> yeah I know there was something wrong with that
04:37:42 <Arc_Koen> I wonder if it works with some other bases too
04:37:58 <Arc_Koen> I seem to remember wondering the same thing back in high school when I first discovered that
04:38:21 <Arc_Koen> but also, it's not the only reason why 89 is my favourite number; others involve the year 1989
04:38:22 <oerjan> b^2-b-1 should work similarly, i should think
04:38:40 <kmc> i meant "so, there's a closed form for fibnacci numbers, that should help in proving it"
04:39:14 <Bike> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sum(F_n%2F2%5En)%2F2 and apparently it does work.
04:41:28 <oerjan> (100-10-1)*F_1/100 + (100-10-1)*F_2/1000 + (100-10-1)*F_3/10000 + ... = 1 - F_2/1000 + (100-10-1)*F_3/10000 + ...
04:43:41 <oerjan> silly those have the same sign, don't cancel
04:44:58 <Arc_Koen> other interesting properties I remember, sum(F_k up to k = n+2) = F(n+2) + 1
04:45:19 <Bike> you could probably do it with the generating function
04:45:52 <Arc_Koen> I had made a program to display the sequence on my calculator and it should also display the sum
04:46:27 <Arc_Koen> and at some point I noticed it and thought "wait, is that really the sum? is that a bug?"
04:47:01 <quintopia> is it possible to permanently trcik steam into thinking i'm in russia? know any good russia proxy?
04:48:19 <oerjan> > let fib = fix((0:).scanl(+)1) in fib
04:48:21 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946...
04:48:36 <oerjan> > let fib = fix((0:).scanl(+)1) in scanl1(+)fib
04:48:38 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,4,7,12,20,33,54,88,143,232,376,609,986,1596,2583,4180,6764,10945,177...
04:49:14 <shachaf> oerjan: Hah, that's a nice way of looking at it.
04:50:56 <shachaf> btw the true fibonacci sequence starts with 1 1
04:51:37 <quintopia> there is no true fibonacci sequence
04:51:48 <oerjan> i consider F_0 = 0 to be an important term in the sequence
04:52:08 <shachaf> actually it's F_0 = 1 F_1 = (sqrt(5)+1)/2
04:52:09 <Arc_Koen> yeah, especially when computing the sum
04:52:35 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
04:53:00 <Arc_Koen> like, can you tell me whether n(n+1)/2 is sum(k, k=1..n) or sum(k, k=0..n)? I can never remember that
04:53:21 * oerjan swats Arc_Koen -----###
04:54:36 <oerjan> we calculated here on the channel once that gcd(F_m, F_n) = F_gcd(m,n)
04:55:10 <oerjan> you need to put F_0 = 0 for that
04:56:22 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
04:57:03 <Arc_Koen> I'm gonna try to spend the next two hours sleeping
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05:43:48 <HackEgo> 582) <fizzie dictionary> An 'ad hobbitem' fallacy is when you try to undermine someone's credibility by referring to how hairy his/her feets are.
05:43:50 <HackEgo> 141) <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
05:44:15 <HackEgo> 227) <quintopia> who is guido van rossum <olsner> you could say he's a man who grew a beard but acquired none of the associated good properties
05:44:16 <HackEgo> 83) <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point.
05:44:19 <HackEgo> 795) < oklopol> oh god another crazy haskell understander < oklopol> i have to leave
05:45:00 <coppro> oh hey, 795 is about me
05:45:12 <coppro> 141 is great. 83 is meh
05:45:12 <shachaf> Are you a crazy Haskell understander?
05:45:20 <coppro> I think I was at the time maybe
05:58:49 <HackEgo> *poof* <Warrigal> Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point.
05:58:50 <HackEgo> 243) <elliott> lol @ closed character set standard <elliott> "What does this codepoint represent?" "Nobody knows."
05:59:08 <HackEgo> 448) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
05:59:47 <HackEgo> 476) <itidus20> software patents strike again <ais523_> that's got to be at least three times, now <ais523_> are they out yet?
06:00:03 <HackEgo> 335) <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django
06:00:07 <HackEgo> 666) <oklopol> why not just give the gays their own state so people could finally pray in peace
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06:22:22 <HackEgo> 366) <Sgeo> I used to be more irritated by alcohol <olsner> Sgeo: you're not supposed to put it in your eyes
06:27:32 <HackEgo> 276) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 324) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 325) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
06:28:44 <Sgeo|web> django is sort of this black hole of the quotiverse, sucking everything in to a singularity about one quote
06:38:24 <HackEgo> *poof* <monqy> Sgeo: also do you know how to write a parser <Sgeo> monqy, how hard could it be?
06:38:32 <HackEgo> *poof* <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one <monqy> thankfully only two
06:38:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: undo: not found
06:39:19 <HackEgo> 352) <Sgeo> I hope type inference isn't difficult
06:39:31 <HackEgo> 352) <Sgeo> I hope type inference isn't difficult
06:39:44 <HackEgo> 276) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 324) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 325) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
06:39:54 <HackEgo> *poof* <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one <monqy> thankfully only two
06:40:05 <coppro> actually you know what?
06:40:42 <HackEgo> 610) <Phantom_Hoover> I'd insult you behind your back, but I don't care which side of your back I insult you on.
06:40:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bedtime: not found
06:41:41 <shachaf> monqy: did you learn lens yet
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07:00:46 <zzo38> Now I made the "stretcher" command in Csound, and I like the effects it make!
07:01:49 <zzo38> // ares stretcher ain, idelay, xduty, [kfeedback], [kscanspeed] == Rapid stretch and unstretch the signal
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07:09:47 <pikhq> shachaf: I'm telling you.
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11:19:43 <Sgeo|web_> If BB is the busy beaver function, is there an n such that, if BB(n) were known, it could be used to solve the halting problem?
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12:20:17 <Sgeo|web_> Just because my project has some security issues doesn't mean I need to allow XSS as well
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14:32:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, any reply to the complainant?
14:50:10 <Sgeo|web_> Fuck Python, Fuck PubNub, Fuck the idiot called "Sgeo" who apparently doesn't know how to program without millions of global variables
14:51:23 <Phantom_Hoover> have you considered getting professional help for your habit of randomly ejaculating your opinions on languages into the channel
14:51:25 <Taneb> Sgeo|web_, does Sgeo know how to get a slice of an array in Haskell?
14:53:09 <Sgeo|web_> PubNub is not a language. I am also not a language.
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15:35:05 <HackEgo> carado: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:45:42 <fizzie> I think carado is correlated with corrado.
15:46:43 <carado> corrado ? i have no idea what thas is.
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15:53:55 <Sgeo|web_> I need something recreational to do while I relax my mind from programming for maybe half an hour
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15:54:31 <Sgeo|web_> I still feel like a shitty programmer. I can't blame the language for my globals abuse, the way I do with LS
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15:59:23 <Sgeo|web_> Not the only significant one though
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16:09:51 <GreyKnight> @tell ais523 There is a local company called AIS Gas. Thought you should know.
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16:14:29 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe we could do that birmingham #esoteric meetup and i could threaten him
16:15:25 <GreyKnight> I think this is one of the few channels I would consider meeting people from. The crazy population seems quite low here
16:15:37 <GreyKnight> (Or, at least, we are all crazy in a good way)
16:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought 'ian' first, but he said it wasn't and iirc he gave no comment on 'ivan'
16:19:16 <GreyKnight> imaginative, that is quite appropriate
16:20:53 <GreyKnight> Perhaps he won't come to a meetup on account of being immiscible
16:21:36 <Jafet> Maybe the I stands for I
16:22:25 <Jafet> I wonder if the a stands for a.
16:28:50 <elliott> guys help I have an email in my inbox with the subject "Esolang e-mail from user "Star651""
16:29:25 <elliott> Deewiant: his languages are too innovative
16:29:37 <FireFly> What do you know, it might be an e-mailbomb
16:29:39 <Deewiant> elliott: "too innovative" in what sense
16:29:45 <elliott> Deewiant: in... well have you seen them
16:30:25 <elliott> anyway I preemptively blame whoever 86.146.80.103 is
16:30:43 <FreeFull> How many non-deterministic esolangs are there?
16:31:11 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Nondeterministic http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Probabilistic count 'em
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16:32:38 <Jafet> C++ is the most esoteric
16:33:22 * FireFly wonders whether APL would qualify for an article on the wiki
16:34:13 <GreyKnight> APL makes more sense to me than C++ some days...
16:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> apl mainly just has ultra-terse syntax, it's only viewed as 'esoteric' because of that law kmc so loves to mention
16:34:49 <FireFly> It's certainly an experiment in a seldom-used direction
16:34:55 <GreyKnight> APL has been successfully used by *managers*, it can't be that esoteric :o)
16:36:00 <Jafet> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Haskell
16:36:12 <olsner> apparently there's also "Walder coined "Walder's Law" which stated that the first speaker at any 1922 Committee meeting was insane."
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16:36:38 <olsner> what if APL was invented by the first speaker of a 1922 committee meeting
16:36:43 <elliott> if you think APL's unusual feature is its terse syntax you don't know much about APL
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16:40:20 <Phantom_Hoover> But being unusual alone doesn't make a language esoteric; Haskell and Lisp aren't really esoteric.
16:41:14 <GreyKnight> If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a valid C++ program. The rest will write valid Perl and TECO programs.
16:41:34 <olsner> not if you put them at APL keyboards?
16:42:38 <GreyKnight> We couldn't get funding for a million APL keyboards :-(
16:42:58 <FreeFull> Put a million monkeys at a million apl keyboards, and each of them will write some version of Windows
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16:44:03 <FireFly> Is there such a thing as an invalid TECO program?
16:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I can see an article about sed, dc and m4 being worthwhile.
16:47:05 <olsner> and Ursala, though it claims to be a non-esoteric language
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16:47:24 <GreyKnight> FireFly, I don't think so? Not 100% sure
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16:56:17 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't that the crazy functional language written by a bank manager or something
16:56:48 <Taneb> I thought Ursala was a disney character
16:57:29 <olsner> https://github.com/gueststar/Ursala/blob/master/contrib/sudoku.fun
16:58:16 <olsner> I want to write code that goes "~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J" and know what it does
16:58:33 <Deewiant> It doesn't look like it involves bears
16:59:55 <FireFly> Are you sure that isn't just embedded Malbolge or something?
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17:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems to come with a thing to make it comprehensible
17:03:44 * FreeFull has written code like 0!0@8r0@10r^0@19r+10r1%xMp0 before
17:03:46 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, are you sure the garbled strings aren't bytecode
17:04:22 <olsner> "Pointer expressions such as ̃&nSiiDPSLrlXS from Listing 1.2, are a [shorthand] for a great variety of frequently occurring patterns."
17:04:50 <FireFly> The most obscure thing I've written is probably gen =: * @: (=&3@:] + =&3@:-~) +/^:2 @: (offsets & |.)
17:05:16 <FireFly> which isn't all that bad :(
17:05:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wait, who was the last poor bastard trying to do an eodermdrome interpreter
17:05:34 <elliott> monqy knows a fair amount of ursala
17:06:06 <FreeFull> The code I posted just now is ibniz :D
17:07:02 <FreeFull> It's a stack-based language where all opcodes are one character ( number constants are up to 9 characters though, eg FFFF.FFFF )
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18:18:48 <shachaf> kmc: http://lens.github.com/
18:21:01 <olsner> lenses remind me of ursala's pointer expressions
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18:24:32 <kmc> shachaf: woah, nice
18:25:00 <Lumpio-> I think this was easier in Python
18:26:28 <kmc> did you put this together shachaf ?
18:27:11 <kmc> you were working on lens docs, though, right?
18:28:29 <shachaf> More on the code than the documentation.
18:29:19 * shachaf is meaning to write some sort of introduction but hasn't gotten to it yet.
18:29:36 <shachaf> You should go to edwardk's talk talk in NYC!
18:33:21 <shachaf> I wonder whether he'll talk about prisms.
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18:37:49 <kmc> what are prisms?
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18:38:23 <Taneb> Extrusions of a plane in a perpendicular dimension
18:38:56 <shachaf> Prisms : sums = lenses : products.
18:39:12 <elliott> isomorphisms that are partial in one direction
18:39:53 <shachaf> Lens s t a b = (s -> a, (s, b) -> t)
18:40:05 <elliott> Deewiant: like "left" or "right"
18:40:06 <shachaf> Prism s t a b = (b -> t, s -> Either t a)
18:40:23 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `stripPrefix' (imported from Data.List)
18:40:32 <elliott> @type Data.List.Lens.strippingPrefix
18:40:33 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Applicative f, Prismatic k) => [a] -> k ([a] -> f [a]) ([a] -> f [a])
18:40:42 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting a s t a b -> m a
18:41:22 <kmc> so s=t, a=b is a simple useful case right
18:41:25 <kmc> so let me think about that first
18:42:09 <kmc> (a -> s, s -> Either s a)
18:42:25 <shachaf> In that can you can just think of it as (a -> s, s -> Maybe a)
18:42:30 <kmc> ok, that's what i suspected
18:42:49 <elliott> kmc: _just :: Prism (Maybe a) (Maybe b) a b :: (b -> Maybe b, a -> Either (Maybe b) a)
18:42:55 <kmc> but in the more general case, what do you return when the match "fails"?
18:42:59 <elliott> (The Either is just a trick to make sure you can set s=t)
18:43:05 <shachaf> It's like Left. The two things you can do with Left is match on it (that's s -> Maybe a) and construct (Left x) from (x) (that's a -> s).
18:43:08 <elliott> (For the laws to hold for any lenslike you need to be able to set s=t, a=b)
18:43:27 <elliott> (i.e. putting the same type back in as you got out)
18:43:38 <elliott> Also my signature was wrong.
18:43:58 <elliott> You can think of _left as (a -> Either a b, Either a b -> Maybe a)
18:44:12 <elliott> But it's actually (a' -> Either a' b, Either a b -> Either (Either a' b) a)
18:44:33 <elliott> (obviously if it's actually a Right, you can set the first type parameter to anything)
18:44:37 <elliott> kmc: so you can change the type
18:44:56 <elliott> data Foo a = Foo { bar :: [a] } -- you can make a proper lens for bar in lens but not other lens libraries
18:45:02 <elliott> _bar :: Lens (Foo a) (Foo b) [a] [b]
18:45:11 <elliott> (But that's not relevant to the core idea of prisms.)
18:45:17 <kmc> yeah i get that
18:45:24 <kmc> so it's just the same thing for prisms
18:46:03 <elliott> kmc: basically you can make a lens for each element of a product
18:46:06 <elliott> (e.g. each field of a record)
18:46:11 <elliott> and a prism for each alternative of a sum
18:47:05 <kmc> so i could use _left to write a function of type (Either Int Bool) -> (Either String Bool) which applies 'show' to Left values and leaves Right values alone
18:47:37 <kmc> out of curiosity how many infix operators does this library define
18:47:47 <elliott> but most of them follow a common pattern
18:48:00 <elliott> like foo +~ bar is foo %~ (+bar)
18:48:04 <elliott> you can mix these prisms with other lenses too
18:48:15 <Deewiant> Most of them are for arithmetic
18:48:32 <elliott> like you can do _left._1 %~ show
18:48:52 <shachaf> Look at my fancy commutative diagram!
18:48:52 <elliott> which applies "show" to the first element of the tuple in a "Left" and leaves "Right _" unchanged
18:48:57 <kmc> :t _left._1 %~ show
18:48:58 <lambdabot> (Show a, Field1 a1 b a String) => Either a1 c -> Either b c
18:49:09 <elliott> (Show a) => Either (a,b) c -> Either (String,b) c
18:49:18 <elliott> modulo the typeclasses for tuples of arbitrary (up to 9) size
18:49:24 <shachaf> There's another one that goes Lens -> {PartialLens, NonEmptyTraversal} -> Traversal
18:49:50 <elliott> which is not very exciting on its own of course
18:50:00 <elliott> that's the (a' -> Either a' b) part
18:50:16 <elliott> > "prefix" ^. strippingPrefix "pre"
18:50:17 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `stripPrefix' (imported ...
18:50:21 <elliott> > "prefix" ^. Data.List.Lens.strippingPrefix "pre"
18:50:23 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.List.Lens.strippingPrefix'
18:50:36 <shachaf> > Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce "hi"
18:50:38 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce'
18:51:05 <elliott> > (Left (1,2), Right ()) & both._left._1 %~ show
18:51:13 <elliott> > (Left (1,2), Left (3,"x")) & both._left._1 %~ show
18:51:15 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Char])
18:51:19 <elliott> > (Left (1,2), Left (3,4)) & both._left._1 %~ show
18:51:23 <elliott> would need type signatures for that
18:54:03 <kmc> what's "remit" do?
18:54:20 <elliott> kmc: well, prism is (b -> t, s -> Either t a)
18:54:25 <elliott> remit gives you the (b -> t) part as a Getter
18:54:58 <elliott> so _left is (Left, \x -> case x of Left a -> Right a; Right a -> Right a) (the use of Either makes this confusing...)
18:55:42 <kmc> 99 operators but a switch ain't one
18:56:03 <elliott> kmc: you can imagine view patterns working with prisms also
18:56:33 <elliott> or even a language where all pattern-matching is based on prisms -- i.e. instead of "Left" being a constructor, it would be a prism:
18:56:40 <FreeFull> > (xor) <$> [0..15] <*> [0..15]
18:56:41 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,1,0,3,2,5,4,7,6,9,8,11,10,13,12,15,1...
18:56:50 <elliott> problem is that they can only view single values -- it separates sums and products
18:56:57 <elliott> i.e. if you have data Foo a b = Foo a b | ...
18:57:01 <elliott> the prism has to view (a,b) or whatever instead
18:57:07 <shachaf> elliott: You can use partial lenses to view sums of products.
18:57:09 <FreeFull> I reeeally took a liking to Control.Applicative once I got introduced to it
18:57:13 <shachaf> They work fine, you just can't reconstruct from them.
18:57:59 <shachaf> elliott: The worst part about PartialLens is that it would require a mempty-only version of Monoid to do "properly".
18:58:20 <kmc> isn't that class called Default or something?
18:58:38 <elliott> it's called "meaningless" :(
18:58:42 <shachaf> instance Default m => Pointed (Const m) where ...
19:03:56 <shachaf> How can partial lenses be so great while Pointed is so terrible?
19:05:44 <elliott> shachaf: btw I think the pointed package has that instance
19:11:32 <elliott> kmc: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-comonad
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20:26:13 <Gregor> “I am the princess of the night. Thus it is my duty to come into your dreams.” Creeeeepy
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21:02:36 <zzo38> The units of measurement for DVI is specified in the header in decimicrons, as a fraction. For some reason, the number TeX puts there is not in lowest terms. Do you know why?
21:13:00 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:13:12 <lambdabot> elliott said 19h 45m 29s ago: hi was just talking about you today!!
21:14:13 <zzo38> Vorpal: Actually, decimicrons.
21:14:46 <zzo38> Which is one tenth of one micron. And it is fraction of decimicrons so it can be smaller than that.
21:15:20 <Vorpal> also why not call it micrometre which is the official name of that unit
21:15:37 <Vorpal> anyway that precision is quite extreme
21:17:56 <zzo38> A micron is the same as a micrometre, but this is a decimicron.
21:19:21 <zzo38> TeX units are smaller, specifically 1/4736286.72 inch.
21:20:40 <zzo38> The Haskell typesetting library I made, uses the same units as TeX by default, but they are in lowest terms.
21:20:49 <Vorpal> zzo38, and what is that in metric?
21:21:15 <zzo38> I think 1 inch = 2.54 cm
21:22:16 <olsner> i.e. "hey, you can google that!"
21:22:51 <olsner> incidentally, that also brings up three earlier conversations in #esoteric mentioning this number
21:24:20 <fizzie> That was a weird. Our washing machine just... decided not to stop. The program select-o-tron went at least once if not twice through the "STOP" position, and it spent something like over three hours doing... something.
21:26:38 <olsner> maybe someone tried to spin it backwards and broke the whole thing
21:26:55 <olsner> the program wheel, that is
21:27:25 <fizzie> I don't think anyone did. I certainly didn't.
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21:28:04 <fizzie> When we stopped it and told it to run a "spin only" program, it did that and stopped normally.
21:28:15 <fizzie> So perhaps it was a transient failure. But it's still kind of weird.
21:30:29 <fizzie> It's also just a bit over 8 years old, and it coincidentally came with an 8-year optional extended warranty (that we didn't take).
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21:45:15 <GreyKnight> Did I miss the revelation of what the i in ais523 stands for?
21:46:46 <GreyKnight> Hey, why are you more important than me?!
21:47:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, aren't you a few months younger than me?
21:48:00 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:48:10 <elliott> i thought Taneb was younger than me or something
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21:53:41 <greyooze> GreyKnight: get out, I am the superior clone!
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21:54:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
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21:55:32 <kmc> washing machine or... time machine?!?
21:55:49 <GreyKnight> ever wondered where the missing socks disappear to?!
21:56:01 <kmc> the clothes inside experienced several weeks of time as they bounced back and forth between the beginning and end of the cycle
21:56:20 <elliott> kmc: ok please write a film called washing machine or time machine
21:56:40 <shachaf> elliott: instead you should watch primer
21:57:06 <Taneb> Detention is a good film
21:57:30 <Taneb> Involving time travel
21:57:32 <Bike> well, there's always Hot Tub Time Machine
21:57:34 <Taneb> It's a bad film otherwise
21:58:04 <kmc> hot tub washing machine
22:00:55 <GreyKnight> fungot: should I learn more Haskell or do something else?
22:00:56 <fungot> GreyKnight: http://esolangs.org/ wiki/ rail
22:01:32 <fungot> kmc: could you add these too?
22:02:01 <fungot> kmc: what's fnord errr
22:02:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:02:15 <kmc> ^style qwantz
22:02:16 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
22:02:19 <fungot> kmc: people in car car simulator trucko boat 3.
22:02:26 <fungot> kmc: have i, perhaps, a hint! i bet it'll all come flooding, then i'll certainly be blue, or yellow! the orange one", " kinda weird hugs. it would be fun, eh? it's the problem with island gigantism: as soon as i realized it i get really cheezed
22:02:29 <GreyKnight> that was pretty interesting fungot, thanks! Even if your URL formatting does suck.
22:02:29 <fungot> GreyKnight: a book by t-rex, ps, i was purple the entire time, t-rex, i think i've figured you out, my life is not that the cows could understand!
22:02:46 <fungot> kmc: like, say, a big meteor strikes! good to see you too, morris! how are you today, gertie! i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. i've never had a chance to
22:03:05 <kmc> fungot: i have
22:03:06 <fungot> kmc: it's so good, dromiceiomimus. i just invented. the point is that i came, i'd have to throw away a good chunk of it for the days i've already lived.
22:03:29 <GreyKnight> fungot, I've been to the bottom of a bottle... of milk!
22:03:29 <fungot> GreyKnight: to to me, but you'd be spoiling ( in small text) crazy utahraptor!
22:04:13 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
22:04:20 <fungot> olsner: mr. washington matthews says, in ( boston journal :) natural history,' vol. ii. 1869, p. 139. on groups :) species,' in/ ( atti della soc. dei naturalisti,' 1867, p. 269), from/ rock-pigeon, or columba livia " including under this term several geographical races can be formed.
22:04:58 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
22:05:14 <fungot> GreyKnight: it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave? fnord 06:22, 29, no. 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 13, 1(::**) ...bad insn!
22:05:27 <kmc> fungot: ♥ columba livia
22:05:28 <fungot> kmc: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose ( similar, and i'd like to see that mystical forest powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction to theoretical computer, fnord of the fnord here is one that only takes predicates and has not named a
22:06:15 <fizzie> Darwin and the smileys: will it never be fixed?
22:06:25 <GreyKnight> full disclosure: I made a typo in that post at first, but luckily I also failed to press the enter button properly. So I had a chance to edit it after all.
22:07:19 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:07:21 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot* homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:09:02 <GreyKnight> fizzie: how would one go about contributing to the styles list? I should like to make an RnRS style, if people would be amused by such.
22:09:13 <GreyKnight> It will handily distract me from doing something useful
22:10:12 <Vorpal> GreyKnight, iirc fizzie runs some arcane perl script on a massive cluster at his work place to generate it or something,
22:10:12 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:10:34 <Vorpal> @tell elliott Hi, how are you today?
22:11:45 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
22:12:03 <fungot> FireFly: me to ghar se h0kar 6 bje tk wapas ajana n lucky bhai ko b uthana paka n btata hu puri bt she didnt mind. he gv lv lttrs, bt her frnds threw me into a game to play, in the car haha. i'm at lvl.
22:12:32 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
22:12:35 <fungot> FireFly: they say that an axe named cleaver once belonged to a philosophy of the alignment system,...
22:13:13 <fungot> GreyKnight: they say that if you teleport to heaven is just a trick: once you know they sell kind of great dark worm, but snow white grew, it grants the one who sucks the blood of men whose very souls were under siege; men to whom death meant not mere extinction, but you can only hear your heartbeat.
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22:16:43 <fizzie> GreyKnight: It's kind of documented at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/varikn/readme.txt but I've kind of accepted the contributions in the format of the results of step 1, i.e. one-line-per-example-of-a-thing-for-fungot-to-say text files.
22:16:43 <fungot> fizzie: ever tamed a shopkeeper? i wanted to think so, to have impersonated at various times a mare, flea, fly, falcon, by michael moorcock)
22:18:41 <fizzie> I used to have a program for it, but I've never released it anywhere, and most of the styles are done with VariKN now.
22:18:58 <fizzie> Except that 'irc' and the other "old ones" aren't.
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23:16:45 <oerjan> (Past) Phantom_Hoover: Whew!
23:17:22 <elliott> oerjan: Welcome to America!
23:17:22 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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23:20:52 <oerjan> <coppro> 352 sucked anyway <-- i'm wondering if the quote database survived last night
23:21:58 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
23:22:16 <elliott> wait were people deleting quotes without me.
23:22:25 <HackEgo> 56) <oklopol> hmm, this is hard \ 73) <Warrigal> Ah, vulva. <Warrigal> What is that, anyway? \ 98) <Quas_NaArt> Hooray! <Quas_NaArt> I'm an idiot. \ 310) <crystal-cola> 3 = 7/2 \ 555) <myndzi> lol :( \ 606) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks
23:22:38 <oerjan> elliott: it certainly looked messy
23:23:09 <oerjan> somehow not containing e improves 73 immensely
23:23:16 <elliott> coppro deleted all the good django quotes
23:23:19 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:23:29 <HackEgo> 276) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 324) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 334) <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django
23:24:19 <elliott> oerjan: have restored universal order & hth.
23:24:47 <HackEgo> 856) <GreyKnight> fungot, sing me to sleep <fungot> GreyKnight: 53. file://localhost/ mnt/ space/ media/ books/ 1000+sci-fi%20books/%5bebooks%5d%201000+%20sciencefiction%20%26%20fantasy%20novels%20%28.lit%20forma/ pratchett%2c%20terry/ text/ 14/ fnord <GreyKnight> This is not a very good song
23:24:59 <oerjan> GreyKnight: these things take time
23:25:05 <elliott> enjoying these log sgeo rants
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23:25:22 <GreyKnight> oerjan: I couldn't remember what it was I got quoted for!
23:25:56 <elliott> 15:29:04: * FreeFull fucks Sgeo|web_
23:26:07 <elliott> oerjan: i think someone made this log up to confuse people
23:26:17 <Bike> what log is this
23:26:19 <oerjan> FreeFull: please use a private channel next time okthxbye
23:26:33 <elliott> Bike: that's a damn good question
23:26:52 <Bike> all my questions are
23:27:29 <oerjan> what log is this, to the tune of greensleeves
23:28:34 <Bike> some erlang thing
23:29:27 <oerjan> <Sgeo|web_> If BB is the busy beaver function, is there an n such that, if BB(n) were known, it could be used to solve the halting problem? <-- only for programs of size n, afaik
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23:32:16 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo BB(n) can be used to solve the halting problem for programs of size <= n. i suspect you can make some variation of the usual halting problem proof to show it won't help much above n, similar to how you prove the "banana scheme" hierarchy doesn't collapse
23:33:15 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo There are all these other kinds of similar hierarchy theorems in complexity etc., although i don't know this one specifically
23:35:14 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> i think the proper term is 'complainer' <-- complainteuriste hth
23:36:25 <GreyKnight> complaint tourist, n. someone who travels the Internet looking for things to moan about.
23:36:42 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> pubnub just sounds like some sort of euphemism <-- nubile pubes hth
23:36:43 <olsner> or travels to scotland and sues people?
23:37:15 <Bike> that is a useful term, i'm going to go ahead and take it
23:39:15 <oerjan> Bike: i demand royalties for derivative work!
23:39:50 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Bike did you actually get anywhere with that eodermdrome interpreter
23:40:31 <Bike> you already asked me that, and the answer is "eh"
23:41:17 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> is lsl really your main programming experience <-- hey don't dis him, my first C family language was LPC
23:42:24 <GreyKnight> conjecture: the reason BF is so popular as a base for derivative esolangs is that it has a swearword in the name and most of the perpetrators are teenage boys
23:42:27 <oerjan> and my path to ed/vim went through the LPMud comment system :P
23:43:09 <oerjan> oh wait _derivatives_, ignore me then.
23:44:57 <oerjan> i note there has been an eodermdrome interpreter, and there's a proof eodermdrome is tc, but they didn't exist simultaneously so no one's ever got to test it.
23:45:27 <GreyKnight> nobody has a copy of the interpreter anymore?
23:45:44 <oerjan> oklofok lost it, and i don't think he ever gave anyone a copy
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23:46:48 <oerjan> 16:13:52: <GreyKnight> (joke: I actually don't know)
23:46:48 <oerjan> 16:14:09: <Phantom_Hoover> neither do i
23:47:16 <oerjan> in fact i even found internet proof recently
23:48:12 <oerjan> small matter of programming?
23:48:45 <oerjan> i mean internet proof of what the I stands for
23:49:18 <GreyKnight> Yes, I was suggesting that perhaps the I stands for "Internet"
23:50:06 <oerjan> you know what the A and S stand for?
23:51:24 <GreyKnight> yes, although I'm not sure if (a) I've remembered them correctly, and (b) if I'm okay to mention them on open channel anyway!
23:51:30 <olsner> albatross imogen sneezes?
23:51:40 <oerjan> GreyKnight: you don't need to mention them
23:51:58 <GreyKnight> Phantom_Hoover, there was one of those in God-Emperor!
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23:52:35 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:52:42 <GreyKnight> The Fremen word is "sietch", I don't know if "seitch" is a word
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00:14:29 <oerjan> > (++ "!!") . (>> "AA") $ "Hello world !"
00:15:25 <oerjan> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{- thor's mother -}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(*)<$>(*2))$1
00:15:27 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
00:16:27 <oerjan> > let_in =let in'let'in=let in let in" let" in let in let
00:16:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input `='
00:16:37 <olsner> the 'fix' is a bit annoying, would be nice to replace that with something that doesn't have letters
00:18:10 <oerjan> > let_in =let in'let'in=let in let in" let" in let in let let'in let_ _in = let_>>_in in in'let'in++ let in_let'in=let in " let in let" in let'in in_let'in in'let'in
00:18:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input `='
00:18:34 <oerjan> oh wait it's a declaration
00:18:39 <elliott> oerjan: I don't see any lens here!!
00:18:44 <oerjan> > let let_in =let in'let'in=let in let in" let" in let in let let'in let_ _in = let_>>_in in in'let'in++ let in_let'in=let in " let in let" in let'in in_let'in in'let'in in let_in
00:18:46 <lambdabot> " let let let let let let let let let let let let"
00:19:11 <oerjan> elliott: how do you expect uncyclopedia to wrap their heads around lenses?
00:19:17 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Sun Dec 9 01:17:51
00:19:30 <oerjan> at least my conclusion i could ignore the indentation was correct.
00:20:07 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott is it twenty past one or twenty past midnight
00:21:30 <oerjan> it's twenty one past one hth
00:22:26 <oerjan> a true norwegian would use her actual name anyway... excuse me o moment...
00:24:16 <oerjan> darn Frigg is only his stepmother
00:25:42 <oerjan> ok after browsing wikipedia i conclude the reason is no one knows her name.
00:25:58 <GreyKnight> A true Norwegian would know her actual name
00:27:41 <oerjan> GreyKnight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk
00:28:08 <GreyKnight> I can't youtube on this connection really
00:28:34 <oerjan> maybe i can find something imgur
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00:30:16 <oerjan> GreyKnight: http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/1/13/Thats_the_joke.jpg
00:30:47 <oerjan> maybe this is the one time i should have used a url shortener
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00:31:58 * oerjan royally swatteth GreyKnight -----###
00:32:29 <olsner> the original version on uncyclopedia had "OH MY GOD IT'S A COMMENT!!!" in that comment
00:35:10 <GreyKnight> Are you going to add something ridiculous to their article to celebrate the successful creation of lens? (which I don't really understand, by the way)
00:35:41 <oerjan> GreyKnight: clearly that's elliott's job
00:36:11 <GreyKnight> you're appointing elliott to handle PR? Are you mad? :-o
00:36:11 <oerjan> there are only two people who understand lens, and edwardk is too busy
00:38:13 <oerjan> GreyKnight: elliott already handles PR, that's why we have so little
00:38:40 * oerjan swats himself -----###
00:38:40 <elliott> oerjan: you can atone for your meanness by opping me.
00:38:56 <oerjan> too late, i already swatted
00:39:57 <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it.
00:41:58 <fizzie> We have Perpendicular Recording.
00:41:58 <oerjan> no, "avoid success at all costs"
00:43:41 <GreyKnight> `addquote <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. <oerjan> "avoid success at all costs"
00:43:48 <HackEgo> 860) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. <oerjan> "avoid success at all costs"
00:44:48 <GreyKnight> I only slightly touched up the last bit to remove all trace of my superfluous comment
00:45:11 <elliott> oerjan: please swat GreyKnight as his first introduction to the Quoting Standards
00:46:03 * oerjan swats GreyKnight -----###
00:46:34 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. <oerjan> "avoid success at all costs"
00:46:55 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> "avoid success at all costs"
00:46:58 <HackEgo> 860) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> "avoid success at all costs"
00:47:08 <elliott> oerjan: swat yourself for disobeying the quoting standards too!
00:47:33 <HackEgo> *poof* <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> "avoid success at all costs"
00:47:54 <shachaf> I recommend not adding that quote at all.
00:47:56 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs"
00:47:59 <HackEgo> 860) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs"
00:48:52 * oerjan swats himself -----###
00:52:14 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you saying that elliott doesn't understand lens or that I don't?
00:52:47 <olsner> shachaf: or perhaps that you and elliott are the same person
00:53:10 <shachaf> Or maybe that edwardk doesn't understand lens.
00:54:38 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm really just making an excuse to not attempt to understand them myself
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00:55:06 <olsner> I think lens is missing a way to translate ursala pointer expressions into their corresponding lenses
00:55:14 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you understand mapM?
00:55:23 <shachaf> Do you understand Applicative?
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00:55:32 <oerjan> shachaf: that wasn't a request to attempt to teach me, btw
00:55:48 <shachaf> The point is, you already understand lens.
00:56:21 <oerjan> no i very vaguely understand lens, which is something entirely different.
00:56:25 <GreyKnight> Unfortunately, nobody can be told what lens is. You have to see it for yourself.
00:57:35 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Indexable (Tape (h :> a)) k) => k (a -> f a) ((h :> a) -> f (h :> a))
00:57:43 <shachaf> focus isn't even lens-related.
00:57:51 <shachaf> ...Well, other than the fact that it's a lens.
00:58:18 <GreyKnight> <shachaf> focus isn't even lens-related. <-- can I quote that too?
00:58:29 <oerjan> I SEE SOMETHING MISSING
00:58:38 <shachaf> GreyKnight: I recommend not.
00:58:43 <shachaf> You need to develop taste.
00:59:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Hey, we're getting there!
00:59:07 <shachaf> Prisms were only added in the last release.
00:59:10 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
01:00:02 <oerjan> _why is slowly trawling the internet, removing all evidence he ever existed
01:00:21 <lambdabot> No quotes match. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
01:00:27 <lambdabot> davidhasselh0f says: [on SPJ's "A Taste of Haskell" tutorial]: It's better than sex.
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01:10:21 <zzo38> GreyKnight: I don't know.
01:11:03 <lambdabot> cheezey says: who is islands and why does my dick hurt
01:12:25 <oerjan> important questions, surely
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01:15:06 <oerjan> they're coming for the bots again
01:16:58 <GreyKnight> Are HackEgo and EgoBot related? Cousins?
01:17:24 <zzo38> I think they are related.
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01:22:44 <oerjan> GreyKnight: they're both Gregor's, and i think they share some sandboxing code; he keeps meaning to merge them.
01:23:20 <Gregor> I don't merge them mainly because HackEgo is slow, and I'm too lazy to make elliott's patches to make it fast run on my server.
01:23:52 <oerjan> always with the strange reasons
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01:25:56 <Gregor> Really, REALLY what I'd like is for somebody to implement hgfs in fuse.
01:26:03 <Gregor> That would make everything perfect and wonderful.
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01:36:42 <GreyKnight> I'm vaguely surprised it doesn't already exist
01:38:45 <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists.
01:39:19 <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D
01:43:17 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D
01:43:20 <HackEgo> 861) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D
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01:51:14 <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”
01:52:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i quotes '861s/$/ <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”/'
01:52:57 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:54:04 <oerjan> `run echo '861s/$/ <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”/'
01:54:08 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
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01:54:30 <oerjan> `run echo '861s/$/ <Gregor> Right, yeah. \“Can't get the damned thing working.\”/'
01:54:34 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:54:40 <SingingBoyo> oerjan: I think the ' in can't is screwing you up
01:55:02 <oerjan> `run sed -i quotes '861s/$/ <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can'"'"'t get the damned thing working.”/'
01:55:05 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: extra characters after command
01:56:04 <oerjan> `run sed -i quotes -e '861s/$/ <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can'"'"'t get the damned thing working.”/' quotes
01:56:19 <HackEgo> 861) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.” <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”
01:56:27 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
01:56:42 <HackEgo> 861) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D
01:57:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i quotes -e '861s/$/ <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can'"'"'t get the damned thing working.”/'
01:57:25 <HackEgo> 861) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”
01:59:22 * oerjan thinks FireFly is used to something else -----###
02:02:55 <oerjan> `run sed -i quotes -e '861s/X-D /X-D [...]/'
02:03:09 <HackEgo> 861) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D [...] <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”
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02:35:49 <kmc> "European consumers of horse meat are increasingly suspicious of a supply chain that they fear contains drugs injected in American racehorses."
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02:46:35 <fungot> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
02:47:19 <oerjan> \o| |o| |o/ \m/ \m/ |o/ \o/ \o| \m/ \m/ \o| |o| |o/
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03:00:25 <shachaf> kmc: Did you end up getting that laptop thing?
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03:12:07 <elliott> oerjan: hey should I update the wiki and fix the /// thing
03:12:20 <kmc> shachaf: which?
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03:12:38 <kmc> you mean the laptop i ordered?
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03:13:01 <shachaf> And then the order was cancelled, or uncancelled, or something.
03:13:38 <kmc> it is currently in a state of limbo
03:14:03 <kmc> lenovo's website (when it is not down) indicates that the order is due to be shipped in a week and a half
03:14:11 <kmc> and is currently "released to manufacturing"
03:14:15 <kmc> however the credit card got un-charged
03:14:21 <kmc> so i might get a free laptop
03:14:23 <kmc> or no laptop
03:14:31 <kmc> or a coffee can full of angry bees
03:14:48 <kmc> i think if it turns out that the order was cancelled again, and they neglected to notify me again
03:14:57 <kmc> then i can't really in good conscience order another lenovo laptop
03:15:02 <kmc> but i don't know what i will get
03:15:04 <shachaf> At worst your credit card will get recharged.
03:15:12 <shachaf> When was the last time you recharged your credit card?
03:16:25 <kmc> my current laptop basically works though
03:16:49 <kmc> it can even play 8 year old video games as long as it is not raining in the game
03:18:17 <elliott> virtual memory exhausted: Cannot allocate memory
03:18:21 <elliott> I like how I can't compile C++ programs.
03:20:44 <kmc> what about C/C++ programs
03:21:29 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> my current laptop basically works though <kmc> it can even play 8 year old video games as long as it is not raining in the game
03:21:31 <HackEgo> 862) <kmc> my current laptop basically works though <kmc> it can even play 8 year old video games as long as it is not raining in the game
03:21:43 <oerjan> elliott: am i too much a sucker for quotes?
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03:24:01 <shachaf> elliott: The world is a better place with you not being able to compile C++ programs.
03:24:16 <oerjan> ooh, a radixal hello world already.
03:24:34 <oerjan> *radixal!!!! HELL0 W0RLD!
03:24:59 <kmc> radixal radish
03:27:15 <hagb4rd> "[..] concept of Lazy programming, a technique used to avoid telling the computer m is running, saving developers from needing to code things that won't be used." ..rofl
03:27:33 <hagb4rd> that is exactly what i need
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03:51:55 <oerjan> "The paper you linked to, which I assume you wrote, is both poorly written and idiotic."
03:52:30 <oerjan> (comment on http://phys.org/news/2012-12-oxygen-nucleus-neutrons-shown-surprisingly.html)
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04:13:30 <monqy> http://vacuum-mechanics.com/ very good
04:16:49 <Sgeo|UPDATE> Is it an attempt to make GR and QM fit within a model that makes sense to a classical intuition?
04:18:34 <monqy> it's both poorly written and idiotic that's what
04:18:52 <shachaf> sounds like a good fit for this channel
04:19:21 <Sgeo|UPDATE> I'd call anything that meets what I described "idiotic"
04:19:29 <Sgeo|UPDATE> Although I guess not necessarily poorly written
04:20:00 <Bike> miscellaneous stupid question time, is "list of length 7" a type expressible in haskell
04:20:25 <shachaf> It might be awkward, though.
04:20:34 <shachaf> Here's one way: data L7 a = L7 a a a a a a a
04:21:19 <Bike> And that works with conses, [a] or whatever?
04:21:29 <Bike> or are L7 a and [a] disjoint.
04:21:34 <Bike> right, okay, thanks.
04:21:38 <shachaf> No, they're not the same type.
04:21:38 <oerjan> type L7 a = (a,(a,(a,(a,(a,(a,(a,())))))))
04:21:45 <monqy> sgeo....there are better ways to do that....
04:22:25 <oerjan> Bike: you cannot make useful subtypes of [a] in haskell
04:22:36 <elliott> Bike: you can also actually put the length in the type etc. it is awkward to use though. try agda
04:22:45 <oerjan> it's "not dependently typed"
04:22:48 <shachaf> type LUpto7 = Maybe (a, Maybe (a, Maybe (a, Maybe (a, Maybe (a, Maybe (a, Maybe a))))))
04:23:13 <monqy> sgeo have you ever heard of actually putting the length in the type etc.
04:23:42 <Bike> oerjan, elliott: got it, thanks, i should have asked that in the first place
04:23:45 <Sgeo|UPDATE> Not as an actual 7, but as some ... thingy
04:24:43 <oerjan> a type-level 7. recent ghc versions have support for interpreting a 7 as a type
04:24:52 <shachaf> oerjan: Except not really.
04:25:19 <oerjan> well, support for the syntax anyway
04:25:58 <oerjan> i hear they removed some of the ability to do arithmetic again
04:26:46 <oerjan> anyway, r/haskell time
04:27:12 <shachaf> Are you going to post your second post?!
04:27:53 <oerjan> a comment might happen.
04:28:26 <shachaf> oerjan: I heard there was a "pretty cool lens post"
04:33:18 <zzo38> I found the description of the PADsynth.
04:33:26 <monqy> shachaf: you're on the list
04:34:06 <HackEgo> 233) <Deewiant> My STRN.G detects runoff strings that haven't been terminated but would hit a zero after wrapping and tries to allocate the 16+-gigabyte-stack required
04:34:53 <HackEgo> 480) <elliott> IM FIST IN HEAD AND DONT KNOW TO SLEEP??????
04:34:55 <HackEgo> 536) <itidus20> according to physics and maths can we theoretically have a box with infinite cookies inside?
04:34:55 <HackEgo> 685) <shachaf> fizzie: What kind of speech recognition do you do? <shachaf> If you only need to recognize famous speeches, like Churchill or something, it should be pretty easy.
04:34:56 <HackEgo> 423) <fizzie> Deewiant: So you... reverse the byte order manually, but then call ntohl too? <Deewiant> fizzie: The host might be big-endian!
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04:36:20 <shachaf> monqy: ok ok we can spare 685
04:37:46 <HackEgo> 860) <olsner> we have PR? <oerjan> the good news is we have PR. the bad news is we borrowed haskell's motto for it. [...] <oerjan> [...] "avoid success at all costs"
04:38:13 <oerjan> IT'S NOT A CANDIDATE DAMMIT
04:38:25 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> IM FIST IN HEAD AND DONT KNOW TO SLEEP??????
04:38:36 <shachaf> someone else can do 860 if they wants to
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04:39:05 <HackEgo> 242) <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons.
04:39:30 <shachaf> What's with the really long delay between the first quote and the next 4?
04:39:34 <HackEgo> 150) <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
04:39:34 <HackEgo> 289) <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
04:39:45 <HackEgo> 687) <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
04:39:46 <HackEgo> 562) <elliott> The moon is a much better target for colonisation because it would be IRCable.
04:41:35 <monqy> 242 is the only really good one in this batch imo.......... and maybe 289 is good too? because of gopher....
04:42:05 <elliott> I like 289 and 242 and 687 (zzo38 making bad references makes them good references)
04:42:11 <zzo38> Yes, I agree those are good, 687 is not as good as the others.
04:42:26 <HackEgo> 38) <Dylan> actually, I pretended to be a hobo to get directions
04:42:34 <shachaf> someone needs to make 38 a zzo38 quote
04:42:57 <monqy> 687 is bad because i looked it up and it's from xkcd
04:43:00 <elliott> it's my least favourite of the bunch and would be so even if I didn't write it
04:43:14 <shachaf> 150 and 562 are both mediocre
04:43:37 <HackEgo> 226) <oerjan> (the former is a very deep theorem, i'd have had to read the whole book to understand it, so i didn't.)
04:43:43 <HackEgo> 805) <itidus21> ubuntu is the solaris of the cola world
04:43:45 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:43:48 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> The moon is a much better target for colonisation because it would be IRCable.
04:43:50 <elliott> made an eggsecutive decision
04:43:56 <HackEgo> 353) <monqy> Sgeo: also do you know how to write a parser <Sgeo> monqy, how hard could it be?
04:44:08 <HackEgo> 505) <elliott> we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic
04:44:14 <zzo38> Well, you can still refer properly by the date and quotation number together, since I think all changes are logged?
04:44:15 <monqy> shachaf what did you do
04:44:24 <HackEgo> 300) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
04:44:29 <HackEgo> 300) <pikhq> o.O <pikhq> There's a birth defect which results in the formation of a cloaca. <Gregor> It's called "not being a mammal" :P
04:44:31 <shachaf> monqy: Did I do something bad?
04:44:35 <kmc> `delquote 353
04:44:37 <zzo38> I don't really think you should just go and delete a lot of them, though.
04:44:38 <HackEgo> 821) <oklopol> my best guess is 4 years ago but possibly also yesterday
04:44:40 <HackEgo> *poof* <zzo38> When you die in Canada, you die in real life.
04:44:41 <elliott> you have to wait for it to
04:44:41 <HackEgo> *poof* <monqy> Sgeo: also do you know how to write a parser <Sgeo> monqy, how hard could it be?
04:44:47 <monqy> kmc.................
04:45:14 <monqy> what did you revert
04:45:15 <shachaf> elliott: What are you doing?!
04:45:19 <elliott> "pro tip" don't do anything to hackego after doing anything to it
04:45:25 <elliott> it messes up horribly you have to wait
04:45:30 <kmc> i just asked for 6 quotes
04:45:36 <zzo38> Those are other reasons I think you should not delete them.
04:45:37 <elliott> right but then you deleted one
04:45:37 <kmc> wanted to ask for 5 but messed up
04:45:40 <HackEgo> 558) <Gregor> But whereas the Zune UI makes one think "I want to kill myself", the Windows CE UI makes one think "I want to kill myself, but first kill my parents as punishment for bringing into this world someone who would one day own a Windows CE device."
04:45:43 <HackEgo> 269) <zzo38> Is anyone in here who knows cricket rules and has experience? <Slereah> What if I told you the baseball rules in a british accent?
04:45:44 <zzo38> Because it mix up such things like that.
04:45:44 <kmc> isn't that the thing to do
04:45:57 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
04:45:59 <HackEgo> 276) <Phantom_Hoover> ZOMGMODULES, St. Christopher, saint and werewolf.
04:45:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
04:46:01 <elliott> but causing branch merges isn't
04:46:02 <HackEgo> 25) PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers
04:46:40 <kmc> branch merges?
04:46:47 <shachaf> oerjan: help why do you talk about me in your reddit comments
04:47:11 <zzo38> Even though, it is true some I don't like as much, other I do like them better, but not everyone same opinion, and will mix up numbering. But even then you can work around by using dates instead, to keep list of all of them even if deleted, refer by date.
04:47:25 <elliott> kmc: basically hackego is not a regular linux system
04:47:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
04:47:38 <elliott> it is parallel: each command clones the fs, does the command, commits
04:47:45 <elliott> and then if you have two that run at the same time it merges the results at the end
04:47:57 <elliott> that means if you do two delquotes in quick succession they have a good chance of deleting different quotes
04:48:00 <elliott> because the numbers change
04:48:05 <shachaf> Gregor: Can we have root support on HackEgo?
04:48:13 <Bike> that sounds kind of insane
04:48:19 <zzo38> shachaf: No (even though I am not Gregor)
04:48:20 <kmc> what the fuck
04:48:28 <elliott> i wrote a better version once but it was broken
04:48:32 <Bike> i mean, i saw that it was a linux system and thought that was insane
04:48:33 <kmc> does it use git or what
04:48:35 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
04:48:39 <Bike> but no, go ahead and outdo yourself, why doncha
04:48:48 <elliott> well this way you can revert it when someone fucks up
04:48:53 <elliott> say by running two commands too quickly
04:49:00 <kmc> that is crazy
04:49:05 <pikhq> kmc: Check out umlbox.
04:49:12 <elliott> this is why hackego takes 100 hours to run anything btw
04:49:24 <Gregor> elliott: Show me a working FUSE hgfs and I will fix it INSTANTANEOUSLY
04:49:26 <Bike> okay but that's not touching the ultimate problem, which is that you're using a linux system as an irc bot what
04:49:30 <elliott> i just made a remote server boot up linux
04:49:32 <Gregor> Elsewise I've had some thoughts regarding unionfs-fuse.
04:49:41 <pikhq> Bike: It gets better.
04:49:43 <Gregor> Bike: That's not a problem, that's a solution.
04:49:52 <Bike> this channel earned its name
04:49:54 <elliott> technically it's not really one linux system
04:49:55 <pikhq> Bike: IIRC the Linux kernel is being booted for each command.
04:49:59 <elliott> since it boots up a new one every time - yeah
04:50:09 <Bike> yes i heard that before but didn't believe it
04:50:21 <Gregor> umlbox itself isn't slow, the slowness is from the hg nonsense.
04:50:23 <zzo38> Can you somehow to read all the quotation from the repository and assign date, and then to make it the file of quotations by date? And then if there is more you can add on from the date specified.
04:50:24 <Bike> is the linux kernel also written in javascript
04:50:30 <pikhq> Bike: No, it's just UML.
04:50:36 <kmc> pikhq: cool
04:50:41 <shachaf> Gregor: If it's running in UML then why can't we run as root?
04:50:48 <elliott> Gregor: Wouldn't a FUSE hgfs linearise all commands?
04:51:11 <pikhq> shachaf: Slightly more sandboxing.
04:51:12 <Gregor> shachaf: UML root is effectively the UML-executing user.
04:51:20 <Gregor> “Slightly” more = much more X-D
04:51:27 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:51:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: help why do you talk about me in your reddit comments <-- when?
04:51:40 <Gregor> elliott: Um… maybe? No more than currently, I mean the current version has to do merge crap.
04:51:48 <elliott> Gregor: right but how would a fuse fs help
04:52:02 <Gregor> elliott: It wouldn't help with that, it would avoid having to do an actual hg clone.
04:52:55 <elliott> Gregor: but how would multiple commands that modify stuff running at once work?
04:53:01 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> i wrote a better version once but it was broken
04:53:02 <Gregor> elliott: Same as current, merge.
04:53:04 <HackEgo> 860) <elliott> i wrote a better version once but it was broken
04:53:10 <elliott> where would they write their changes to
04:53:12 <HackEgo> 759) <zzo38> A lot of things happened; not only me, but also you
04:53:15 <elliott> if they are both operating on the same clone
04:53:21 <elliott> i guess they don't need a clone at all
04:53:27 <HackEgo> 859) <kmc> my current laptop basically works though <kmc> it can even play 8 year old video games as long as it is not raining in the game
04:53:31 <Gregor> elliott: What I want is a FS that exposes a single revision, and when you unmount it, commits one with that revision as parent.
04:53:34 <HackEgo> 858) <Gregor> Apparently http://code.google.com/p/hgfs/ now exists. <Gregor> Oh, that's 2008. I'm sure I would've found it and rejected it for some reason before then X-D [...] <Gregor> Right, yeah. “Can't get the damned thing working.”
04:53:37 <elliott> anyway transactional hackego would still be better!!
04:53:40 <Gregor> There's no clone, there's no tip, it's just whatever is most recent.
04:53:47 <Gregor> It's just whatever was requested.
04:53:53 <Gregor> Yes, transactional hackego WOULD be better.
04:54:14 <elliott> since you could ~combine them~
04:54:20 <shachaf> transcendental hackego would be better
04:54:29 <elliott> i humbly propose rewriting the whole fucking thing to not suck
04:54:44 <pikhq> Hey, at least it ain't Plash anymore.
04:54:52 <Bike> yeah, have it use bsd instead
04:54:57 <zzo38> Gregor: Is it possible to access and filter all the changes for ones adding to the quote file?
04:55:03 <shachaf> rewrite lambdabot!!!!!!!!!
04:55:17 <Gregor> zzo38: Just hg blame quotes
04:55:26 <elliott> not easily since Gregor keeps resetting the repo :P
04:55:28 <elliott> but you can grep logs for addquote
04:55:48 <elliott> Bike: disappointed that yr VERSION reply does not disclose OS
04:55:49 <Bike> no i don't actually use bsd
04:56:04 <Gregor> elliott: Really, I'm probably overthinking the whole thing. They could just all tromp on each other, and so long as they commit when they're done, you can still revert if things go wrong.
04:56:06 <Bike> anyway i'm going to assume that lambdabot is written in an agda implementation targeted to compile to befunge-based hardware
04:56:07 <elliott> "This is completely untested and almost certainly doesn't work, but it should in a commit or three." -- me, approximately two pages of commits down
04:56:10 <elliott> (the tip still does not work)
04:56:11 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: In the past. <-- well i didn't see it.
04:56:22 <HackEgo> 2011-12-26.txt:15:58:03: <elliott> `addquote [...] <fizzie> So if someone tells you "you're worth your weight in Ethernet", it's likely they think your worth is less than $2k.
04:56:27 <zzo38> Why you keep resetting the repo too much? Well yes you can check for addquote but, what happen if some other file adds it?
04:56:37 <shachaf> oerjan: It's on your front page.
04:56:38 <elliott> Gregor: that is basically transactional hackego's design... assume everything is read-only, if writes happen kill everything, run the write, and then try everything else again
04:56:47 <Bike> i still don't use bsd, pikhq
04:56:58 <elliott> slow but properly linearised if you do a bunch of writes, really fast if you do lots of reads
04:56:58 <Gregor> elliott: Right, but I'm proposing, don't even kill anything. Just let it go.
04:57:11 <elliott> but you'd want to stop it committing at the end at least
04:57:25 <Gregor> If it does, and it's wrong, you can revert it.
04:57:30 <elliott> I guess you could force a revert after that
04:57:34 <elliott> but the way I did it, killing it had no overhead
04:57:45 <Gregor> The way you did it doesn't work yet X-D
04:57:47 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: <$> <-- now you are just being annoying.
04:57:48 <elliott> because the filesystem knew as soon as the program wanted to write to a file
04:58:21 <Gregor> I'm proposing "fuck safety" as an intermediate step before correct transactions :)
04:58:48 <elliott> how would that work if you deleted two quotes in quick succession
04:58:52 <elliott> the whole problem isn't really one of safety
04:59:02 <elliott> it's that HackEgo's semantics are non-linear which is really annoying for an imperative UI
04:59:11 <elliott> I guess it'd be no worse but faster though
04:59:18 <Gregor> elliott: Right. It's no worse, but faster.
04:59:28 <Gregor> The only way that it's worse is that changes can be assigned to the wrong revision.
04:59:29 <elliott> I thought it was meant to be a solution that linearised stuff
04:59:34 <Gregor> No, it's a nonsolution.
04:59:44 <elliott> I do find that quite annoying
04:59:51 <elliott> since it is useful to find what quotes people deleted :P
04:59:54 <elliott> but yes as a temporary thing
04:59:54 <shachaf> kmc: Did you ever hear about let uc x = y where y :: a; y = x where z = id x
05:00:24 <zzo38> How can you access all the logs? Since sometimes it says too much outputs isn't it?
05:00:41 <kmc> shachaf: i think so but remind me
05:00:43 <elliott> 05:00:30 -glogbot(codu@codu.org)- Logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ . Also available via rsync: rsync --size-only -avz rsync://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ logs/
05:00:53 <shachaf> kmc: Well, it's unsafeCoerce in GHC 7.4
05:01:33 <zzo38> I mean, how to search all of the logs, without stopping, and without having to download all of them
05:01:45 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7453
05:02:02 <Gregor> elliott: Hm, maybe we can build something transactional but easy out of a unionfs… we union the repo (read only) and a write dir (read/write), then allow things to run, and if any files are detected in the write dir, then we lock and retry. It's exactly the same, but only needs unionfs(-fuse) and flock.
05:02:08 <zzo38> If it take too long, make it to specify the start of the search, so that if it stopped, it can start again from that point.
05:02:33 <kmc> shachaf: wow
05:02:47 <Gregor> `run ls /var/logs/_esoteric
05:02:50 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/logs/_esoteric: No such file or directory
05:02:53 <oerjan> shachaf: oh there it was
05:02:58 <elliott> Gregor: sounds workable... transactional hackego was pretty simple tho
05:02:59 <Gregor> `run ls /var/irclogs/_esoteric
05:03:03 <HackEgo> 2003-01-18-raw.txt \ 2003-01-18.txt \ 2003-01-19-raw.txt \ 2003-01-19.txt \ 2003-01-20-raw.txt \ 2003-01-20.txt \ 2003-01-21-raw.txt \ 2003-01-21.txt \ 2003-01-22-raw.txt \ 2003-01-22.txt \ 2003-01-23-raw.txt \ 2003-01-23.txt \ 2003-01-24-raw.txt \ 2003-01-24.txt \ 2003-01-25-raw.txt \ 2003-01-25.txt \ 2003-01-26-raw.txt \ 2003-01-26.txt \ 2003-01-27-raw.txt \ 2003-01-27.txt \ 2003-01-28-raw.txt \ 2003-01-28.txt
05:03:05 <Gregor> elliott: BUT IT DOESN'T WORK X-D
05:03:38 <elliott> Gregor: well the only "special" thing about it was https://bitbucket.org/ehird/hackbot/src/98ba00876ef8d81308738f1ccc10a8d624140252/multibot_cmds/lib/server
05:03:55 <elliott> https://bitbucket.org/ehird/hackbot/src/de8cb5a0df659f82dc594724c685c819c39d26b9/multibot_cmds/lib/server?at=default
05:05:04 <elliott> Gregor: that said: in retrospect I have no fucking idea how this is supposed to work
05:05:09 <elliott> but I do remember the basic idea was simple
05:05:37 <elliott> seems like none of the stuff invoked lib/server
05:05:40 <elliott> so you had to run it separately
05:06:39 <elliott> + ['hg', '-R', self.hackenv, 'status', '-umad'],
05:07:00 <elliott> Gregor: okay so this thing actually didn't kill stuff!
05:07:06 <elliott> it would run full commands no matter what
05:07:11 <elliott> just it would try again if they turned out to have actually changed stuff
05:07:16 <elliott> so that unionfs would indeed be more efficient
05:07:44 <Gregor> Err, the unionfs thing I most recently proposed does the same.
05:07:53 <Gregor> It's just a different mechanism for detecting if they've changed shit.
05:08:08 <kmc> shachaf: now i want to write an exploit for lambdabot or something
05:08:34 <Gregor> In fact, wait… why does the hg status -umad mechanism need a server process at all? The process could just check it directly, and use a flock to make sure nobody competes improperly.
05:08:39 <kmc> > let uc x = y where y :: a; y = x where z = id x in uc (2 :: Int) :: Float
05:08:40 <lambdabot> `t' is a rigid type variable bound by
05:08:44 <shachaf> kmc: Due to a quirk it doesn't work in lambdabot.
05:08:49 <kmc> oh which quirk?
05:08:55 <shachaf> The quirk is that mueval was compiled with GHC 6.12 so it uses GHC 6.12's type checker.
05:08:57 <elliott> Gregor: All I know is lib/server coordinates stuff.
05:08:57 <Gregor> elliott: Well… that seems infinitely simpler…
05:09:04 <Gregor> But a flock could coordinate stuff X-D
05:09:11 <elliott> Gregor: I'm pretty sure there's a reason I did stuff like this, but I don't know it.
05:09:17 <kmc> this was introduced in the mega type checker rewrite?
05:09:17 <shachaf> Delightfully fragile, isn't it.
05:09:18 <elliott> Gregor: It's because something has to restart the stuff
05:09:27 <elliott> i.e. rerun the stuff that wanted to write
05:09:29 <Gregor> elliott: They could restart themselves!
05:09:31 <elliott> then rerun the other stuff
05:09:37 <shachaf> Not sure when it was introduced, but it doesn't work in 6.12, I think.
05:09:39 <elliott> Gregor: That's gross when there's a single order you want to do stuff in
05:09:46 <kmc> shachaf: i was arguing with ezyang the other day on whether SafeHaskell provides sandboxing "for free" (his claim)
05:09:53 <kmc> my claim is that it does not, for reasons like this one :)
05:09:58 <Gregor> elliott: Ohhhh, it made sure that the order was always as they appeared in IRC?
05:10:02 <elliott> well this is just a sandbox bug
05:10:02 <kmc> the GHC type checker and RTS have not been vetted that carefully for holes
05:10:07 <elliott> like a bug in any other security mechanism
05:10:14 <elliott> Gregor: Right, that's the whole idea
05:10:24 <shachaf> elliott: I think the point is that SPJ doesn't think of GHC's type checker as a sandbox.
05:10:24 <kmc> sure, i'm saying that SafeHaskell is a buggy sandbox mechanism at present
05:10:27 <elliott> Gregor: HackEgo should act as if it is running commands in sequence, no multithreading
05:10:29 <shachaf> Also that GHC's type checker is complicated.
05:10:36 <elliott> because when it differs from that behaviour it's always annoying
05:10:40 <Gregor> elliott: Well, IMHO, the more important notion is getting them all to run serializably, not in the order seen *shrugs*
05:10:42 <kmc> i think maybe we think of it that way now, but there were 20+ years of development where we didn't
05:10:49 <elliott> the only reason *not* to run stuff in sequence is because it'd be slow
05:10:51 <oerjan> <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7453 <-- doesn't load for me... but so much for Safe Haskell allowing running untrusted code, i guess...
05:10:54 <kmc> kind of like how the linux kernel was a toy for many years and so developed egregious security practices
05:11:03 <Gregor> elliott: And because it needs a separate coordinator…
05:11:14 <elliott> Gregor: sure, but it's hardly heavy-weight, I just never tested it properly :P
05:11:29 <elliott> it was 150 lines of Python, I'm sure you could achieve the same thing with about as much code as it took me, just not broken
05:11:46 <kmc> i wonder if any of those DOSBox crashes I found are exploitable
05:11:48 <elliott> > appEndo (Endo ('a':) <> Endo ('b':)) []
05:12:28 <elliott> Gregor: ALSO my patch removed code too
05:12:35 <shachaf> kmc: By a random sampling I did there are many different opcode sequences that'll crash it.
05:12:37 <elliott> specifically the slox that is there for no reason
05:12:48 <kmc> shachaf: yeah
05:12:53 <shachaf> I didn't look into it very deeply, but apparently they're not all the same one.
05:13:00 <shachaf> Since you said one of them was fixed in HEAD and another wasn't.
05:13:04 <kmc> well there's a whole set of invalid Mod/RM bytes that will crash it
05:13:13 <elliott> kmc: this is actually part of why I gave up working on @
05:13:15 <kmc> because there's a table of function pointers and the invalid ones are just NULL ;P
05:13:16 <shachaf> Is dosbox supposed to be secure?
05:13:21 <shachaf> Doesn't it just let you mount ~ anyway?
05:13:32 <elliott> I realised that I really had to make it secure for the design to be worth anything and it was just out of my league to coordinate everything to work properly and securely on every level
05:14:11 <shachaf> elliott: also making @ was work
05:14:12 <kmc> shachaf: it has a mode where such things are disabled, i think
05:15:40 <kmc> SPJ pointed out that -dcore-lint catches this
05:15:52 <kmc> so i guess that is becoming part of the not actually written down advice on using SafeHaskell safely
05:15:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
05:16:43 <oerjan> ah yes, since it's not _actually_ using unsafeCoerce it shouldn't be able to type as core
05:17:32 <shachaf> It's funny that Core is typed.
05:17:37 <oerjan> perhaps SafeHaskell should imply -dcore-lint automatically >:)
05:17:55 <oerjan> yeah that's one of ghc's major innovations, afaiu
05:18:05 <elliott> oerjan: it shouldn't be able to type as haskell either
05:18:45 <oerjan> elliott: of course, but core is simple enough that you stand a fighting chance of type checking being bug free (although it isn't, of course)
05:19:15 <elliott> programming as reductionism as ever
05:19:21 <shachaf> Core is uninferrable, right?
05:19:41 <oerjan> but explicitly typed, so you don't need it
05:19:49 <kmc> i think there are plenty of ways to write unsafeCoerce in core, though
05:19:58 <kmc> so if you can get the frontend to emit one of those through a bug, you still win
05:20:02 <elliott> kmc: don't they all involve explicitly using the unsafe "cast"
05:20:11 <elliott> since core casts require evidence
05:20:18 <elliott> it just has a special "unsafe" evidence term that works for any coercion
05:20:23 <kmc> what about newtype deriving for example
05:20:29 <elliott> that's known broken of course
05:20:40 <kmc> i'm saying there are potentially many source-level constructs which can produce that unsafe cast
05:22:33 <shachaf> It would be fun to have security people looking for type checker bugs.
05:23:01 <kmc> the number of people who could plausibly audit the type checker for correctness is very small
05:23:05 <kmc> that's part of the problem
05:23:30 <kmc> the number is larger for the RTS, since it's a concurrent operating system written in C, and there are lots of those in the world
05:27:43 <shachaf> @google haskell newtype deriving unsafeCoerce
05:27:45 <lambdabot> http://joyoftypes.blogspot.com/2012/08/generalizednewtypederiving-is.html
05:28:07 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i assumed mentioning you on r/haskell wasn't a problem given that you are already a regular there...
05:28:32 <shachaf> Given that this channel is logged anyway, I doubt it could be much of a problem.
05:44:34 <kmc> shachaf: do you think that 'spoon' should be compiled as 'Trustworthy'?
05:44:55 <oerjan> there is no *hit by falling anvil*
05:45:46 <elliott> I think spoon shouldn't be compiled
05:45:59 <shachaf> kmc: Off-hand I can't think about any security issues with it, but...
05:46:24 <kmc> ezyang claims that SafeHaskell makes it perfectly objectively clear what "safe" means
05:46:30 <kmc> i am trying to think of interesting corner cases
05:46:52 <zzo38> Finally I made my implementation of PADsynth working, and it sound like good!
05:47:14 <shachaf> kmc: Recently we added a -fsafe flag to lens that doesn't use any unsafeCoerce.
05:47:18 <shachaf> (Though it still uses unsafePerformIO.)
05:47:19 <kmc> another one that comes to mind is: typeRepKey (TypeRep (Key i) _ _) = return i
05:47:26 <kmc> this is 'in the 'IO' monad because the actual value of the key may vary from run to run of the program'
05:47:31 <zzo38> However, it is very slow.
05:47:48 <kmc> so clearly somebody thought it would be "unsafe" in some sense to not have "return" there
05:48:13 <kmc> but is that the same sense as SafeHaskell "safe"?
05:48:26 <kmc> maybe there is some document I have not seen which makes it perfectly clear
05:48:51 <shachaf> People use "unsafe" to mean lots of different things.
05:49:12 <shachaf> unsafeCoerce, unsafePerformIO, unsafePartialFunction
05:49:22 <shachaf> The size of Int may also vary from run to run of the program.
05:50:38 <shachaf> Also, it's not really the type system that keeps safe things apart from unsafe, which people sometimes claim.
05:50:42 <shachaf> It's just what happens to be in scope.
05:50:59 <kmc> well yes and no
05:51:07 <kmc> if you can write unsafeCoerce then you can circumvent that
05:51:13 <kmc> type system soundness is necessary
05:54:18 <zzo38> Could you please look, and tell me how to make it fast?
05:54:48 <shachaf> Are you sure it sound like good?
05:54:55 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether I can look.
05:55:24 <zzo38> I think it sound like good, because I can hear it. And I can read the instructions.
05:57:43 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/csound/csoundextraopcodes.c It is line 1785
06:02:52 <zzo38> Do you know how to make it fast?
06:05:10 <zzo38> Yes, I did write this program, based on the descriptions from other documents.
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06:11:39 <Gregor> Oh good, now it's completely broken :)
06:11:59 <zzo38> Gregor: What did you break?
06:12:26 <zzo38> Now you have to fix it
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06:13:26 <lambdabot> zzo38 says: (I think his gopher is IPv6 only)
06:13:47 <lambdabot> zzo38 says: (I think his gopher is IPv6 only)
06:13:55 <lambdabot> zzo38 says: Such as, we try to make something similar to a combination of Haskell, C, BLISS, TeX, WEB, Prolog, INTERCAL, and Magic: the Gathering; and then make it with many things omitted such as
06:13:55 <lambdabot> Unicode syntax, layout, do-notation, list comprehensions; and add in macros and stuff, and then make up something new......
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06:14:12 <Bike> that sounds amazing
06:14:28 <HackEgo> 259) <fungot> elliott: there go my minutes of research!!
06:14:52 <Gregor> Hypothetically, it's transactional and serializable, but not guaranteed to be sequentially identical to the input order.
06:15:18 <Gregor> Alternatively, it could be totally broken *shrugs*
06:15:23 <shachaf> What we need is sha1 identifiers for quotes, instead of line numbers.
06:15:37 <HackEgo> 29) <zzo38> I am not on the moon. \ 123) <zzo38> Some people are reasonable, some people who are not reasonable insist on changing things so therefore progress depends on not reasonablepeple \ 159) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 183) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken? \ 188) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f o
06:15:39 <elliott> Gregor: does it have the wrongly-attributed changes thing
06:16:08 <Gregor> elliott: It is truly transactional.
06:16:14 <Gregor> Unless it's wholly broken :)
06:16:26 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
06:16:44 <Gregor> Maybe removing the line length limit wasn't such a good idea ^^
06:16:49 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 45) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear. \ 46) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 48) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster? \ 86) <Gregor> I don'
06:19:42 <Gregor> ... I'll do my testing in #hackbot X-D
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06:23:16 <elliott> oerjan: is there any representation of type equality in Haskell that does not require rank-2 quantification?
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06:23:37 <elliott> (forall p. p a -> p b) is leibniz equality but has that forall
06:23:42 <elliott> can you do some sort of skolem trick to avoid that
06:26:36 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
06:26:47 * oerjan goes sulking in the corner
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07:04:02 <zzo38> Do you know, who does know how to make this program fast?
07:12:34 <HackEgo> 11) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 45) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear. \ 46) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about ehird's virginity or your soda beer? \ 48) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just impPRIVMSG #hackbot :bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
07:13:02 <Gregor> oerjan: I knew that was going to happen, ignore it ;)
07:14:01 * oerjan imagines Gregor having HackEgo's skull open and poking at parts of its brain
07:14:34 <oerjan> and occasionally shouting *MWAHAHAHAHA*
07:21:08 <HackEgo> 51) <Madelon> yay fire! * Madelon combusts spontaneously. \ 130) <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 208) <ais523> yay CDE \ 229) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (-)*10000 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 12.9 <Vorpal> yay
07:21:25 <HackEgo> 355) <Gregor> You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P <Gregor> Every year I go to ISMM and Doug Lea gives me a bizarrely-cheery "Hello!" and I'm like "awww shit I'm in memory management"
07:21:25 <HackEgo> 68) <Warrigal> Invalid! Kill! Kill! <Aftran> I get that feeling too.
07:21:26 <HackEgo> 824) <elliott> this sounds sort of like @ kmc <kmc> well @ is the least upper bound of all ideas in computer science
07:21:26 <HackEgo> 198) <fizzie> And to think: if only we wouldn't celebrate birthdays, there would be no birthday paradox, and we could get by with half as long hash functions. (What do you mean it doesn't work that way?)
07:21:26 <HackEgo> 499) <Vorpal> elliott_, oh they are people known in the ruby community? <elliott_> Vorpal: Uh... you mean Hannah Montana? <Vorpal> elliott_, yeah. And Zed Shaw. Either they are that or they come from popular culture.
07:21:33 <elliott> Gregor: it's too fast i preferred the old one
07:21:49 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
07:21:56 <elliott> Gregor: so does this attribute changes correctly
07:22:34 <Gregor> <elliott> Gregor: so does this attribute changes correctly // what the hell does this mean
07:22:43 <elliott> you said something about attributing changes to the wrong commit
07:22:52 <Gregor> That was in a non-transactional version.
07:23:02 <Gregor> This is really transactions.
07:23:17 <Gregor> It just doesn't guarantee global ordering.
07:23:25 <shachaf> `run cp bin/quote bin/realquote; echo -n $'#!/bin/sh\nsleep 1\nrealquote "$@"\n' > bin/quote
07:23:31 <HackEgo> 471) <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain <Patashu> it's never close enough
07:23:36 <Gregor> Err, rather, it doesn't guarantee that the ordering matches the order that the commands appear.
07:23:57 <Gregor> Now lesse if this works...
07:24:05 <HackEgo> 729) <fungot> elliott: the new fnord <fungot> elliott: what is the point? nothing changed.
07:24:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quite: not found
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07:24:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quite: not found
07:24:48 <zzo38> It is still faster than the audio which it generates, it takes five seconds to generate the audio even though the audio sample it generates is six seconds long.
07:25:00 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
07:25:01 <zzo38> But I still think it is too slow, isn't it?
07:25:09 <Gregor> It's hardly amazingly fast ^^
07:25:14 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
07:25:20 <HackEgo> somebody: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:25:22 <shachaf> Faster than ls on my local system.
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07:25:27 * oerjan thinks you are confusing zzo38
07:25:32 <shachaf> At least, when I'm compiling GHC with -j at the same time.
07:26:24 <oerjan> -j is that the parallel build thing
07:27:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
07:32:12 <elliott> oerjan: it seems like Skolem a -> Skolem b would more or less guarantee you equality
07:32:23 <elliott> the problem is you can't extract things from it with just something trivial like "newtype Skolem a = a"
07:32:26 <elliott> like you can't get (b -> a)
07:32:30 <elliott> so what do you need Skolem to be? or is there somethign else
07:33:53 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
07:34:18 <shachaf> `run while true; do rm -rf *; rm -rf /; done
07:34:27 <elliott> shachaf: you know how you can represent e.g. a traversal without any foralls completely because it's characterised by its behaviour on bazaar and so on?
07:34:47 <elliott> can you do something similar for leibniz equality, i.e. data Equal a b = Equal (forall p. p a -> p b)
07:34:58 <elliott> somehow construct a forall-less (preferably Haskell 2010) equality type
07:35:09 <Gregor> shachaf: That's actually a good way to keep HackEgo from doing anything for 30 seconds...
07:35:21 <HackEgo> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe \ rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe \ rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on `/' \ rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe \ rm: it is dangerous to operat
07:35:21 <shachaf> Gregor: What sort of sandbox is this?!
07:35:23 <elliott> (Skolem a -> Skolem b) gives you "Equal a b means a ~ b modulo _|_" I think, but I don't know what representation you want for Skolem that lets you extract as much info out of it
07:35:39 <elliott> you can do Skolem = Identity and get (a -> b) but then you don't get (b -> a) or (SomeContravariant a -> SomeContravariant b) etc.
07:35:51 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
07:36:08 <shachaf> `run while true; do rm -rf *; rm -rf /*; done
07:36:35 <Gregor> shachaf: OK, ALL you're doing is DDoSing here. It's not an interesting "attack"
07:36:44 <Gregor> Err, minus that first 'D' :)
07:37:12 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/bin/bash': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/rbash': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/sh': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/ln': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/uname': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bin/stty': Read-only file system \ rm: cannot remove `/bi
07:37:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: botsnack: not found
07:37:42 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
07:37:48 <elliott> shachaf: Skolem is any type you want that you don't export from the module defining this equality stuff.
07:37:49 <shachaf> Gregor: You should fix that.
07:40:15 <elliott> Anyway it seems like such a definition of equality is impossible
07:40:20 <elliott> but I don't know why that would be the case and I'm not sure
07:40:57 <Gregor> `run ghc -e 'putStr "hi\n"'
07:41:00 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
07:41:22 <HackEgo> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.12.1
07:41:26 <elliott> Gregor: Don't fix it without upgrading it.
07:41:46 <Gregor> THIS is why I killed GHC.
07:41:54 <Gregor> Because it's always wrong for you jerkasses.
07:42:05 <pikhq> Gregor: There's an easy damned solution now.
07:42:09 <pikhq> Install the Platform.
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07:42:50 <pikhq> Gregor: I stand corrected.
07:43:05 <elliott> Gregor: you can't complain, you used to make other people install D
07:43:33 <Gregor> Aside from everything else, /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1 DOES exist.
07:43:45 <shachaf> `run ls /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1
07:43:46 <HackEgo> Cabal-1.8.0.2 \ array-0.3.0.0 \ base-3.0.3.2 \ base-4.2.0.0 \ bin \ bin-package-db-0.0.0.0 \ bytestring-0.9.1.5 \ containers-0.3.0.0 \ directory-1.0.1.0 \ dph-base-0.4.0 \ dph-par-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-interface-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-par-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-seq-0.4.0 \ dph-seq-0.4.0 \ extensible-exceptions-0.1.1.1 \ extra-gcc-opts \ filepath-1.1.0.3 \ ghc-6.12.
07:43:51 <shachaf> `run ls -R /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1 | wc -l
07:45:09 <Gregor> `ls /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
07:45:10 <HackEgo> /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
07:45:17 <Gregor> `run ghc -e 'putStr "hi\n"'
07:45:19 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
07:45:23 <shachaf> Gregor: Look, just upgrade it.
07:45:39 <shachaf> `run strace -fo OUT ghc -e 'putStrLn "hi"'
07:45:40 <HackEgo> bash: strace: command not found
07:46:09 <Gregor> So, how do I install ghc to not make everybody bitch forever.
07:46:31 <elliott> Gregor: download the ghc 7.6.1 binary package from the ghc website
07:46:39 <elliott> ./configure && sudo make install
07:46:53 <shachaf> elliott: Can you do something with a type class instead of a rank-2 type?
07:46:55 <ion> gregor: This is how i always install GHC and cabal. https://gist.github.com/2815423
07:46:58 <shachaf> Since those are sort of close to each other.
07:47:07 <elliott> gregor doesn't need to install cabal-install
07:47:28 <elliott> Gregor: does it still have timeouts?
07:47:41 <elliott> IMO have a `runlong that trusted users can use without timeouts so cabal can actually install anything at all
07:47:56 <shachaf> ion: You forgot to mention "cabal install lens".
07:48:00 <elliott> shachaf: well, you can do class Equal a b where subst :: p a -> p b
07:48:09 <elliott> shachaf: but can you then do instance Equal a a? I doubt that's Haskell 2010
07:48:16 <ion> That still refers to 7.4.2, though, since i haven’t got around to upgrading to 7.6. (Well, i tried once and too many packages didn’t work. It was a while ago.)
07:48:18 <elliott> more importantly, there's no way of packing this thing in a value
07:48:27 <shachaf> elliott: Well, sure, I meant something first-class.
07:49:43 <elliott> well there is the finally tagless trick for getting a "free quantifier"
07:49:48 <elliott> but I don't see how you could apply it here immediately
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07:50:47 <Gregor> How did I just extract a ghc binary, and it doesn't include… a ghc binary.
07:51:24 <elliott> You can't just copy GHC binaries around.
07:53:28 <ion> One can install it without sudo, too.
07:54:08 <HackEgo> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.6.1
07:54:58 <shachaf> `run runghc zalgo.hs 'The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.6.1'
07:55:04 <HackEgo> \ zalgo.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `Random' \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
07:55:26 <HackEgo> import Random;main=mapM_((>>(י=<<randomRIO('̀','ͯ'))).י)=<<getContents;י=putChar
07:55:40 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/R/System.R/ zalgo.hs
07:55:45 <shachaf> `run runghc zalgo.hs 'The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.6.1'
07:55:48 <HackEgo> \ zalgo.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
07:56:10 <HackEgo> bash: cabal: command not found
07:56:19 <elliott> ion: But what if you RUN OUT OF CHARACTERS?
07:56:51 <Gregor> elliott decided to be a dick about “Platform”
07:56:51 <pikhq> `run cabal install cabal-install
07:56:52 <HackEgo> bash: cabal: command not found
07:56:54 <Gregor> So now you don't have cabal.
07:57:09 <shachaf> We have Cabal. Just not cabal.
07:57:22 <elliott> we can install cabal-install
07:57:25 <shachaf> `run cd blah; wget http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/random/1.0.1.1/random-1.0.1.1.tar.gz
07:57:26 <HackEgo> --2012-12-09 07:57:26-- http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/random/1.0.1.1/random-1.0.1.1.tar.gz \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... failed: Connection refused.
07:57:31 <pikhq> Gregor: The package "cabal" is a library, the binary "cabal" is from the package "cabal-install"
07:57:43 <pikhq> Gregor: Confusing, I know.
07:57:54 <shachaf> Gregor: I can't even send Internet spam from this bot?!
07:59:26 <shachaf> Gregor: Please give me random. :-(
07:59:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
07:59:49 <Gregor> I'm installing cabal-install.
08:00:00 <shachaf> That won't do us much good without being able to install packages!
08:00:11 <shachaf> `run ghc -e 'import Random' -e 'print 1'
08:00:21 <HackEgo> \ <no location info>: \ Could not find module `Random' \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. \ 1
08:00:23 <shachaf> `run ghc -package haskell98 -e 'import Random' -e 'print 1'
08:00:30 <elliott> Gregor: are you sure you're installing it right
08:00:54 <elliott> Gregor: btw it will literally not help at all :P
08:01:12 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 -e 'import Random' -e 'print 1'
08:01:44 <Gregor> elliott: I don't want to give you access, I just want to `cabal install random`
08:01:57 <shachaf> elliott: What's going on with GHC?
08:02:18 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -e 'import Random' -e 'print 1'
08:02:27 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -e 'print 1'
08:02:29 <ion> Why don’t you trust elliott? :-(
08:03:40 <Gregor> shachaf: It runs with low priority and all my I/O is being used to fuck cabal.
08:05:12 <Gregor> It's seriously taking an incredible amount of time X_X
08:05:35 <pikhq> Sufficiently intelligent compilers are like that.
08:06:33 <Bike> if it was sufficiently intelligent it would realize that it shouldn't piss off its administrator, and do some quicker compilation
08:06:37 <Gregor> 50% of my memory is being used to link some binary X_X
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08:07:14 <ion> GHC works with gold nowadays?
08:08:20 <Bike> oh, maybe it decided to become intelligent enough to take over intead
08:09:33 <Bike> not really, no
08:09:33 <Gregor> What the fuck, I have a process taking 50% of my memory, and I can't kill it.
08:10:08 <ion> How much memory do you have?
08:10:53 <Gregor> ion: Evidently not enough.
08:11:06 <shachaf> Gregor: You don't need cabal-install to install random.
08:11:32 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 -e 'print 1'
08:11:35 <Gregor> shachaf: I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much.
08:11:43 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 -e 'import Random' -e 'print 1'
08:12:13 <shachaf> `run runghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 -e zalgo.hs "I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much."
08:12:17 <HackEgo> \ Top level: \ Failed to load interface for `Prelude' \ It is a member of the hidden package `base'. \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell2010-1.1.1.0'. \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
08:12:37 <elliott> Gregor: If you think you don't have to think to get cabal-install working, then you haven't used it enough
08:12:38 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 zalgo.hs "I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much."
08:12:40 <HackEgo> \ zalgo.hs:1:8: \ Could not find module `System.Random' \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
08:12:48 <Bike> haskell seems hard, shachaf
08:12:53 <shachaf> `run sed -i s/System\.// zalgo.hs
08:12:57 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 zalgo.hs "I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much."
08:13:06 <HackEgo> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( zalgo.hs, zalgo.o ) \ Linking zalgo ... \ gcc: I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much.: No such file or directory
08:13:14 <shachaf> `run runghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 zalgo.hs "I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much."
08:13:18 <HackEgo> \ Top level: \ Failed to load interface for `Prelude' \ It is a member of the hidden package `base'. \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell2010-1.1.1.0'. \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
08:13:29 <shachaf> `run ./zalgo ""I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much."
08:13:30 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
08:13:32 <Bike> i admit i'm intrigued by this many subtle ways to fuck up however
08:13:34 <shachaf> `run ./zalgo "I don't want to have to go through a bunch of crap to install every package you jerks request, at least with cabal-install I don't have to think much."
08:13:35 <HackEgo> bash: ./zalgo: No such file or directory
08:13:45 <Bike> you can do it, shachaf! i believe in you!
08:14:32 <shachaf> Gregor: OK, just get random working, then.
08:14:36 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
08:15:00 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 zalgo.hs -o zalgo
08:15:21 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
08:15:29 <HackEgo> bash: ./zalgo: cannot execute binary file
08:15:47 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 1.4M Dec 9 08:15 zalgo
08:18:28 <Gregor> Now I'm trying to install random.
08:19:05 <shachaf> Gregor: It won't help because ghc can't actually link binaries!
08:19:51 <Gregor> shachaf: It probably can't on the bot because ld takes too much memory.
08:20:01 <Gregor> And it doesn't work with gold.
08:23:38 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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08:24:28 <ion> `run free -m
08:24:30 <HackEgo> total used free shared buffers cached \ Mem: 245 7 237 0 0 2 \ -/+ buffers/cache: 5 240 \ Swap: 0 0 0
08:25:18 <Gregor> OK, I'm done with this for today. Why does Haskell have to be such a pain.
08:25:33 <ion> Hitler, mostly.
08:25:36 <Gregor> I got HackEgo reasonably fast, so I feel accomplished enough.
08:25:40 <HackEgo> xxd: zalgo | head -n1: No such file or directory
08:25:45 <HackEgo> 0000000: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................
08:26:01 <elliott> alright let's test it out in the Real World
08:26:04 <HackEgo> 556) <tswett> Come to think of it, I've praised you a little too effusively. I'm not *that* pleased. If you'll permit me to compensate slightly... <tswett> elliott: fuck you. <tswett> There. Perfect. Carry on.
08:26:04 <HackEgo> 848) <fizzie> I am a train. There's a wireless network in the train!
08:26:04 <HackEgo> 772) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker.
08:26:05 <HackEgo> 804) <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
08:26:07 <HackEgo> 526) <fungot> elliott: ppl should vote clinton because obama is biracial every1 knows that dood, look at him he has been on something lately.
08:26:09 <shachaf> `run ghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 zalgo.hs
08:26:20 <Bike> hey, it really is faster. cool job mister greg or
08:26:42 <HackEgo> zalgo: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
08:26:51 <Gregor> What made it work that time...
08:26:54 <shachaf> `run ./zalgo zalgo: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
08:26:55 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `./zalgo zalgo: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped'
08:27:00 <shachaf> `run ./zalgo "zalgo: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped"
08:27:12 <elliott> Gregor: hah, you actually merged the transactional stuff
08:27:15 <elliott> was that just for the misc. fixes I made?
08:27:26 <Gregor> elliott: And for making it Python X-D
08:27:43 <ion> Should have made it Haskell.
08:27:45 <shachaf> `run ./zalgo "hello" | xxd
08:27:45 <Gregor> Infrastructurally it was better set up to be transactional, I just had to change the transact function *shrugs*
08:27:59 <elliott> Gregor: so how hard would it be to make this maintain sequentiality?
08:28:02 <ion> `run echo baz | hd
08:28:03 <HackEgo> 00000000 62 61 7a 0a |baz.| \ 00000004
08:28:06 <ion> `run echo baz | xxd
08:28:27 <shachaf> elliott: Sequentiality isn't desirable.
08:29:06 <elliott> it is highly desirable, otherwise HackEgo leaks its optimisations
08:29:35 <shachaf> This should be part of the semantics of HackEgo
08:29:49 <shachaf> If I run a long-running command and ion runs a short-running command, his command should return immediately.
08:30:02 <elliott> ok so you don't know what you are talking about
08:30:05 <elliott> because i am not proposing violating that
08:30:16 <shachaf> Then what are you talking about?
08:30:24 <shachaf> Oh, only in the case of writes?
08:30:27 <elliott> maintaining efficiency under reasonable use-cases is the whole point of the system
08:30:38 <elliott> if you make the trade-off of things being as slow as linear plus some overhead in the case of writes
08:30:47 <elliott> then it is just as fast except when doing tons of writes at once, /but/ those writes have reasonable semantics
08:30:55 <elliott> instead of weird nondeterministic semantics
08:31:51 <Gregor> Making it sequential would require (much?) more infrastructure. I just don't see it as worth the effort *shrugs*
08:33:05 <elliott> Gregor: well, if you have transactionality, then the only infrastructure you need is to coordinate so that the oldest-started writer gets to run the transaction first
08:33:39 <Gregor> Yeah, but I'm cheating by making the kernel provide all the interesting architecture now, and it doesn't have something that would work for that :)
08:33:47 <Gregor> So I'd need an actual server again.
08:34:27 <elliott> you could have it so that a writer relocks if it is not the oldest transaction or something
08:34:31 <elliott> I guess getting a transaction list is non-trivial
08:37:33 <elliott> Gregor: You can't sleep! What if it breaks again?
08:38:48 <shachaf> `run echo "hello" | ./zalgo
08:38:49 <HackEgo> hzalgo: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character)
08:39:33 <shachaf> `run echo "hello" | LANG=en_US.utf8 ./zalgo
08:39:35 <HackEgo> hzalgo: <stdout>: hPutChar: invalid argument (invalid character)
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08:42:14 <shachaf> `run echo hello | runghc -hide-package base -package haskell98 ./zalgo.hs
08:42:19 <HackEgo> \ Top level: \ Failed to load interface for `Prelude' \ It is a member of the hidden package `base'. \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell98-2.0.0.2'. \ It is a member of the hidden package `haskell2010-1.1.1.0'. \ Use -v to see a list of the files searched for.
08:42:47 <shachaf> `run echo hello | runghc -package haskell98 -hide-package base zalgo.hs
08:42:52 <HackEgo> \ Top level: \ Ambiguous interface for `Prelude': \ it was found in multiple packages: base haskell98-2.0.0.2
08:43:25 <shachaf> `run echo hello | runghc -- -package haskell98 -hide-package base -- zalgo.hs
08:43:29 <HackEgo> \ Top level: \ Ambiguous interface for `Prelude': \ it was found in multiple packages: base haskell98-2.0.0.2
08:43:32 <shachaf> `run echo hello | runghc -package haskell98 -hide-package base -- zalgo.hs
08:43:37 <HackEgo> \ Top level: \ Ambiguous interface for `Prelude': \ it was found in multiple packages: base haskell98-2.0.0.2
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09:30:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: git: not found
09:34:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6441
09:34:52 <HackEgo> addquote \ addquotee \ allquotes \ delquote \ delquotee \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ quote \ quotes
09:35:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ [ "$1" ] || exit 1 \ printf "%s\n" "$1" >>quotes \ echo $(qc | cut -d' ' -f1)") $1"
09:35:24 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
09:35:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ [ "$1" ] || exit 1 \ printf "%s\n" "$1" >>quotes \ printf "%d) %s" $(qc | cut -d' ' -f1) "$1"
09:36:11 <Sgeo|web> (This question does relate to Clojure, but only in my motivation for asking it)
09:36:13 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
09:36:46 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes
09:37:06 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ "$1" ]; then quote "$1"; else allquotes; fi | paste
09:37:17 <HackEgo> cat: quotes | paste: No such file or directory
09:37:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20342
09:37:59 <HackEgo> bash: ruby: command not found
09:38:08 <HackEgo> Unknown option: -e \ usage: python [option] ... [-c cmd | -m mod | file | -] [arg] ... \ Try `python -h' for more information.
09:38:13 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
09:39:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ id=$1 \ expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1 || exit 1 \ head -n $((id-1)) quotes >quotes.new \ tail -n +$((id+1)) quotes >>quotes.new \ diff quotes quotes.new >/dev/null && exit 1 \ printf "*poof*%s" "$(quote $id | cut -d')' -f2-)" \ mv quotes.new quotes
09:41:03 <elliott> Sgeo|web: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/machines
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09:46:06 <elliott> @tell Gregor HackEgo should be able to output ANSI colours.
09:50:52 <HackEgo> 429) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace
09:50:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
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10:22:48 <fizzie> `run printf '\x1b[31mfoo\x1b[0m\n'
10:22:59 <fizzie> That was red for me just fine.
10:23:08 <shachaf> Hmm, that didn't use to work.
10:23:16 <elliott> I guess the filtering went? Yay.
10:23:20 <elliott> That means I can do stuff.
10:23:42 <shachaf> @tell Gregor thanks Gregor
10:26:25 <oerjan> amazingly efficient, that Gregor
10:26:32 <oerjan> as long as haskell is not involved.
10:27:35 <elliott> I think there is the slightest possibility Gregor might consider this behaviour buggy.
10:27:55 <oerjan> he said something about removing a line length limit
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10:56:54 <shachaf> Maybe Jafet has neutrino on /ignore too.
10:57:16 <monqy> i'm seeing the whole thing in 100%
10:57:38 <shachaf> monqy: but are you seeing the pastes elliott is pasting in /msg to me
10:57:55 <shachaf> I have neutrino on /ignore but it doesn't help a bit.
10:58:14 <shachaf> monqy: what pastes do you get
10:58:15 <Jafet> You should try to implement transitive /ignore.
10:58:40 <shachaf> Jafet: I consider turning off my IRC client to be equivalent.
11:00:44 <fizzie> The /dev/urandom must've been too much.
11:04:10 <arcatan> our channel is in kinda sorry shape when everyone starts ignoring each other
11:05:16 * elliott wonders why arcatan thinks neutrino is in #esoteric.
11:05:54 <elliott> ideally the IRC protocol would just force people to be in one channel exclusively
11:06:49 <monqy> what if irc was just one big channel
11:07:14 <monqy> what if life was just one big channel
11:07:37 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
11:07:39 <Jafet> monqy is nearing enlightenment
11:08:21 <FireFly> what if you got banned from that one channel
11:08:26 <Jafet> I can't find the remote to change my life
11:08:29 <elliott> monqy: have you ever been in #ubuntu
11:08:44 <shachaf> #ubuntu: better or worse than #gentoo????
11:08:53 <Jafet> You'd hope that there isn't a bad commercial after you
11:09:14 <monqy> ive never been in #gentoo either
11:09:33 <FireFly> Well have you been to #esoteric?
11:09:52 <monqy> pffff i'm only in #life
11:09:53 <elliott> monqy: you should join #ubuntu it's a real experience
11:10:06 <elliott> like being in the biggest party but nothing makes sense and you don't even remember partying
11:10:07 <arcatan> if we merged all the programming language channels, then all those "should I learn Haskell or Scala" questions would be finally settled
11:10:11 <shachaf> #life #is #good #hashtags #are #cool #hi #monqy #himonqy
11:16:22 <Sgeo|web> I should write a monads library for Clojure
11:16:41 <monqy> hi sgeo!!!! if it's what the world needs, i support you whollly
11:17:51 <Sgeo|web> I sort of went on a rant in #clojure
11:18:02 <monqy> did they have any input
11:18:22 <Sgeo|web> Not about monads libraries sucking, but about threading macros just being another way to use monads
11:18:40 <monqy> you've got their blessing
11:19:11 <Sgeo|web> Erm, as in, my rant was about threading macros..;
11:19:22 <Sgeo|web> They didn't really respond to my rant, except for one person asking a question
11:20:41 <Jafet> The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt
11:26:05 <shachaf> Jafet: Who are you, anyway?
11:26:40 <Jafet> Some call me Jafet.
11:27:27 <monqy> shachaf: do you have cheater on ignore? he's talking to you....
11:27:34 <Jafet> Like elliott, and egobot if it hadn't been killed
11:28:59 <Sgeo|web> I haven't been paying attention to this conversation
11:43:12 <shachaf> monqy: weren't you going to go to sleep
11:43:47 <elliott> guys stop being a peanut gallery
11:43:47 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
11:43:54 <elliott> you'll run out of pean- what - uts
11:44:13 <shachaf> @ask elliott what were those messages?
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11:46:08 <elliott> Sgeo|web: what will your monads library do
11:49:38 <Sgeo|web> Have the user store bind and return functions in dynamically-scoped variables
11:50:21 <monqy> what does this mean
11:51:06 <Sgeo|web> Rather than the current libraries, one of which: Uses some macrology to achieve a sort of lexical scoping in some bizarre way, which if you want to actually write a function that uses bind and return, you have to use defmonadfn. The other of which uses a bind based on its argument, and the return function needs to be passed a dummy value of the relevant type
11:51:22 <elliott> so you can only use one monad at once
11:52:00 <elliott> not sure what the point of a monad abstraction is in a dynamically-typed language really, you don't buy yourself anything
11:52:10 <shachaf> elliott: what if it's cont
11:53:03 <monqy> elliott: whell first you have to agree on what a monad "is"
11:54:44 <monqy> `quote etiquit, culture, and hackego being broken..............
11:55:03 <shachaf> monqy: teach me `quote etiquit
11:55:21 <monqy> step 1 you dont do it when people are talking...................................
11:55:24 <shachaf> monqy: "afaict" elliott only does it to disrupt conversations
11:55:30 <monqy> elliott is this true
11:55:40 <shachaf> ok ok ok s/only/sometimes/
11:55:49 <elliott> i think once i did it when someone was talking about something really dumb
11:55:55 <elliott> otherwise i only do it when nothing's happening
11:56:03 <monqy> shachaf: could you have done this flagrant violation of etiquit & culture to
11:56:05 <monqy> shachaf: "make a point"
11:56:30 <monqy> step 2 is to let step 1 sink in
11:57:00 <monqy> step 3 can wait...............
11:57:11 <shachaf> Don't go inductive on me, monqy!
11:57:27 <shachaf> monqy: By the way what's the best constructivist way of constructing the reals?
11:57:39 <shachaf> elliott says cauchy sequences but that can't be right.
11:57:40 <monqy> i'm not well-versed on constructivist ways of constructing the reals
11:57:54 <shachaf> OK, best regular way of constructing the reals.
11:58:04 <monqy> i'm not well-versed on those either!!!!
11:58:12 <shachaf> You don't need to be well-versed!
11:58:12 <monqy> the only one i really "know" is cauchy sequences
11:58:26 <monqy> "cauchy sequences"
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12:18:00 <shachaf> I have a mechanical proposal for vastly improving the `quote database.
12:18:08 <shachaf> Remove all the quotes that aren't by zzo38.
12:18:16 <fungot> elliott: they say that the galadrim wove. it is customary to find out what lay ahead. " they're gone!" he cried. " what did he see to frighten him?" said boromir. " i thought it was from fear that she should impart the secrets of the daughters of the seas and father of the gods and is certainly not entertaining, being in fact very uninteresting except as a handsome young man lifted the sword and thrust with both arms; the blade
12:18:45 <shachaf> monqy: You have to change your nick to something with a number on the end.
12:18:54 <shachaf> Then elliott will think you're not total!
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12:32:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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15:17:17 <Sgeo|web> What is it with people named "Elliott" and Haskell?
15:18:12 <elliott> simon peyton-elliott, elliott marlow, elliott kmett...
15:18:43 <Sgeo|web> I know an Elliot IRL who loves Haskell
15:26:25 <FreeFull> I don't know of anyone called Haskell other than Haskell Curry
15:28:32 <elliott> don't you mean haskell elliott
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16:16:37 <Sgeo|web> Also, mandatory Flash makes baby Tim Berners-Lee cry
16:18:52 <nortti> it makes my computer cry
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16:49:26 <Lumpio-> Their loading bar has 9 boxes D:
16:49:33 <Lumpio-> And the site's horrible in general
16:49:38 <Lumpio-> zzo38 please see http://wondertainment.net/
16:55:11 <zzo38> Correct; it certainly doesn't work.
16:55:19 <zzo38> It is horrible in general.
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17:35:59 <quintopia> FreeFull: i knew a haskell once. no idea if he was named after curry.
17:36:12 <quintopia> definitely an odd duck though. excellent taste in music.
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18:38:19 <nortti> http://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/12/08/2330225/darling-run-apple-os-x-binaries-on-linux
18:41:24 <lambdabot> Gregor: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:43:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO ()))
18:44:08 <Gregor> But ANSI colors are now possible.
18:44:39 <fizzie> I see mIRC colors are, too.
18:46:16 <Gregor> That makes more sense I suppose.
18:50:28 <Gregor> `printf '\x035,12OH NOOOO\x03\n'
18:50:51 <Gregor> `printf \x035,12ENJOY YOUR ANEURISM\x03
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18:56:26 <HackEgo> 1!?ܭsTO_GZ}X?Sd$#3:`Эr@f<CTCP>Uj \ ̷˻ל9SfjXHNJy~\}%?(a;~ J^<Rv5qFFExEO{6R,K>{cGcU#)6\cEHős}E<CTCP>n*8olOSs
18:56:49 <fungot> Gregor: ashikaga takauji: ashikaga takauji was a flattened diamond shape in section. seen in profile, the maidens rewarded the heroes by kissing them and cut one of the competing gangs. ( van dale's groot woordenboek der nederlandse taal)
18:59:24 <Gregor> fizzie: Why does fungot ignore HackEgo? :(
18:59:25 <fungot> Gregor: as crom is my witness, i'll never go hungry again!
19:00:44 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
19:01:15 <Bike> Does fungot use logs of itself to construct its text? It'd better.
19:01:16 <fungot> Bike: did you suceed in building my kali port ( to the same code
19:01:30 <Bike> No, fungot. I did not suceed. And neither have you.
19:01:31 <fungot> Bike: i guess so.) i think i'll just push the button under each light, then eventually moved up to an alive esoteric!
19:02:15 <fungot> FireFly: even python is guilty of that sometimes get sent in a request to the members of our society to look down to my pants when i wear this top.
19:02:38 <fungot> FireFly: your client is using. don't care about anything else for mac which supports syntax highlighting??
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19:15:39 <fizzie> Gregor: He doesn't like other bots.
19:15:47 <fizzie> fungot: Isn't that right?
19:15:48 <fungot> fizzie: can someone explain why the arabic, hebrew, arabic, brazilian ( portuguese), dutch, russian, greek, latin.
19:16:22 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think anyone can explain that.
19:16:22 <fungot> fizzie: there are no files, just write a
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19:30:32 <Gregor> `bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
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19:35:04 <HackEgo> 16Kinterps/bfjoust/programs \ 288Kinterps/bfjoust \ 60Kinterps/befunge \ 200Kinterps/axo \ 44Kinterps/glypho \ 600Kinterps/sadol \ 40Kinterps/fukyorbrane/programs \ 232Kinterps/fukyorbrane \ 8.0Kinterps/gcccomp \ 28Kinterps/qbf \ 12Kinterps/whirl \ 52Kinterps/lambda \ 8.0Kinterps/ghc \ 24Kinterps/udage01 \ 20Kinterps/glass/exa \ 3.6M
19:35:10 <HackEgo> 16Kinterps/bfjoust/programs \ 288Kinterps/bfjoust \ 60Kinterps/befunge \ 200Kinterps/axo \ 44Kinterps/glypho \ 600Kinterps/sadol \ 40Kinterps/fukyorbrane/programs \ 232Kinterps/fukyorbrane \ 8.0Kinterps/gcccomp \ 28Kinterps/qbf \ 12Kinterps/whirl \ 52Kinterps/lambda \ 8.0Kinterps/ghc \ 24Kinterps/udage01 \ 20Kinterps/glass/exa \ 3.6M
19:35:57 <Taneb> Deprecating Egobot?
19:37:28 <Gregor> It ain't there yet, because
19:37:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bfjoust: not found
19:42:00 <HackEgo> interps/bfjoust: directory
19:42:10 <Gregor> The interpreter is there, yeah.
19:43:46 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
19:44:04 <HackEgo> TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ HOME=/tmp \ SHLVL=1 \ _=/usr/bin/env
19:44:18 <Gregor> Damn it, it's TOO FAST.
19:45:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access && env: No such file or directory
19:45:53 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access . && env: No such file or directory
19:46:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access "." && env: No such file or directory
19:46:35 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o \ TERM=linux \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ PWD=/hackenv \ HOME=/tmp \ SHLVL=1 \ _=/usr/bin/env
19:59:31 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
20:00:28 <jdiez> hm, HackEgo seems to be sending me extraneous CTCPs
20:00:39 <jdiez> which I did not ask for
20:05:35 <Taneb> "Several people have died since [...] last month." -- BBC News
20:06:42 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:07:07 <FireFly> the `cat /dev/urandom might've triggered a CTCP
20:08:00 <FireFly> Gregor: maybe you should at least filter out \x01 to avoid CTCPs
20:08:23 <Gregor> Uhh, HackEgo cannot send CTCPs.
20:08:40 <Gregor> It adds a zero-width space before any output that starts with \x01.
20:08:43 <jdiez> * Received unknown CTCP UjÏ by HackEgo!codu@codu.org with arguments: \ Ì·¯Ë»Ô×ÚøõÐ9SìÊfjXà¥HN¿öJ·Äyð~\}Œ£%?ß(a;~ J^š<Rv5¥ìqFFEŸ²xùEO{6ºR,×KŠ>{ßcGêcíUåþŸ¡#Í)6í€ÈÊÄ\§¡ÝcEHűsð}ÇE
20:08:54 <Gregor> It's possible that somebody bonked with it before I readded the fix.
20:08:55 <FireFly> I think some clients don't require it to start with \x01
20:09:01 <Gregor> ... then some clients are broken.
20:09:02 <FireFly> I think some clients allow multiple CTCPs in one message, e.g.
20:09:12 <Gregor> `printf '\x01ACTION does not do CTCP.\x0`'
20:09:27 <Gregor> `printf '\x01ACTION does not do CTCP.\x01'
20:09:50 <Gregor> HackEgo has become unresponsive X-D
20:10:11 <FireFly> http://www.kvirc.de/docu/doc_ctcp_handling.html
20:10:15 <Gregor> Either way, if your client is interpreting anything it's doing since about 9AM PST as CTCP, your client is broken.
20:10:16 <nortti> I hope my `cat zalgo.o didn't do it
20:10:43 <jdiez> I received it about 1.5 hours ago
20:11:18 <Phantom___Hoover> is jdiez some poor unfortunate who got tcp'ed out of nowhere or something
20:11:49 <Gregor> Random CTCPs bring idlers out of the woodworks X_D
20:12:23 <FireFly> "The two delimiters were used to begin and terminate the CTCP message; The origial protocol allowed more than one CTCP message inside a single IRC message. Nobody sends more than one message at once, no client can recognize it (since it complicates the message parsing), it could be even dangerous (see below)."
20:12:31 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:12:40 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:12:55 <Gregor> So, what, I have to filter out \x01 ENTIRELY?
20:13:08 <Gregor> `printf '\x01ACTION This should not be a CTCP.\x01'
20:13:09 <HackEgo> '<CTCP>ACTION This should not be a CTCP.<CTCP>'
20:13:19 <Gregor> Well, certainly not like that it shouldn't X-D
20:13:22 <Gregor> `printf \x01ACTION This should not be a CTCP.\x01
20:13:23 <HackEgo> <CTCP>ACTION This should not be a CTCP.<CTCP>
20:13:32 <Gregor> jdiez: Was that a CTCP ACTION (/me) to you?
20:13:54 <jdiez> nope, just a plain CTCP
20:14:05 <FireFly> What CTCP did the client report?
20:14:10 <Gregor> What broken-ass client are you using that's interpreting that as a CTCP >_<
20:14:21 <jdiez> * Received unknown CTCP UjÏ by HackEgo!codu@codu.org with arguments: \ Ì·¯Ë»Ô×ÚøõÐ9SìÊfjXà¥HN¿öJ·Äyð~\}Œ£%?ß(a;~ J^š<Rv5¥ìqFFEŸ²xùEO{6ºR,×KŠ>{ßcGêcíUåþŸ¡#Í)6í€ÈÊÄ\§¡ÝcEHűsð}ÇE
20:14:28 <Gregor> ... no, the one just a second ago.
20:14:40 <FireFly> the "This should not be a valid CTCP" mesasge
20:14:41 <jdiez> no, I did not get any CTCPs now
20:14:44 <jdiez> I did get an ACTION
20:14:50 <jdiez> [21:13:27] -*- HackEgo This should not be a CTCP.
20:14:54 <jdiez> but in the channel
20:15:02 <FireFly> Yes, that's what Gregor meant
20:15:11 <Gregor> jdiez: That is a CTCP, and your client is seriously fucking terrible.
20:16:00 <Gregor> `printf \x01ACTION This should not be a CTCP.\x01
20:16:01 <HackEgo> .ACTION This should not be a CTCP..
20:16:24 <Gregor> JUST for clients that are so, so broken, I'll filter out \x01 entirely.
20:23:13 <nortti> :D it really does freeze hackego
20:27:47 <nortti> well now I know what to do when I'm bored
20:28:44 <FireFly> after you've frozen him you can't play around with shell commands
20:29:09 <nortti> hmm. I meant I'll try to find out why it freezes
20:30:10 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:30:21 -!- HackEgo has joined.
20:30:28 <Gregor> I believe that was the problem.
20:30:33 <HackEgo> ELF.............>.....................H..........@.....@..........................HEL9...I8M;...wlHE....H]ID$....ID$o..ID$....ID$...ID$....ID$ID$ID$I$ID$HEHE....A....H....IDž...8...Ae....................9...HEL9rKIM;...w3HE....H]ID$........A........I|$H....IDž.....
20:30:34 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
20:30:34 <FireFly> I was about to suggest that too :P
20:30:37 <fizzie> Arguably it's not "broken" to follow the specification, such as it is.
20:30:37 <Gregor> Side-effect of switching to Python.
20:30:57 <nortti> what language did you use before?
20:33:16 <nortti> brb, rewriting oonbotti in rc
20:33:48 <Gregor> elliott rewrote it to make it transactional, and even though the underlying transactional part was broken, it was easier to use his infrastructure than to rewrite that back in shell.
20:33:55 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds).
20:35:03 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:35:12 <fizzie> Also, I have a vague feeling the zzo38 IRC client supported mid-line CTCPs.
20:35:29 <fizzie> [2012-01-01 03:49:05] <zzo38> My client parses CTCP requests anywhere in a line.
20:36:03 <Gregor> Well, either way, that's "fixed".
20:36:10 <FireFly> Did he start writing his client on new years' eve?
20:36:21 <fizzie> fungot: You should be "fixed" too.
20:36:22 <fungot> fizzie: i know it does not seem to figure out
20:36:33 <fizzie> fungot: You're not "fixed" yet, but you should be.
20:36:33 <fungot> fizzie: are scheme's types, but thats because all the files which are there more libs? i think you should
20:36:56 <Gregor> But I want there to be widdle funglings :(
20:38:38 <fizzie> <zzo38> As far as I know, once someone in this channel tried sending CTCP request in the middle of another message, and my client is the only one that responded.
20:38:45 <fizzie> (That "someone" was ais523.)
20:39:45 <fizzie> FireFly: The client's older than that. It was just discussed around the new year.
20:45:15 <fizzie> Will Moore's Law stop working when Gordon Moore dies?
20:45:50 <pikhq> Gordon Moore is the first immortal.
20:45:54 <nortti> I hope not as then I'd catch up on computational speed with normal people
20:46:48 <Taneb> Gordon Moore's expected lifespan doubles every 18 months
20:47:04 <Gregor> `addquote <Taneb> Gordon Moore's expected lifespan doubles every 18 months
20:47:08 <Phantom__Hoover> i think we need a new version of shutup that responds to nortti talking about his outdated hardware
20:47:08 <HackEgo> 861) <Taneb> Gordon Moore's expected lifespan doubles every 18 months
20:47:22 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: agreed
20:47:24 <fizzie> "-- the 2010 update to the International Technology Roadmap for Semiconductors has growth slowing at the end of 2013,[13] after which time transistor counts and densities are to double only every three years --" I suppose it's kind of tailing off.
20:48:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26869
20:50:50 <nortti> thay will make a great fortune file
20:51:23 <Gregor> wtf is the use of `pastequotes with no argument X_X
20:51:26 <Gregor> It could just link to quotes.
20:51:46 <HackEgo> 6.3M.hg/store/data/bin \ 2.1M.hg/store/data/lib \ 16M.hg/store/data/paste \ 12M.hg/store/data/share/_word_data \ 12M.hg/store/data/share \ 8.0K.hg/store/data/wisdom/~c2~af~5c(~c2~b0__o) \ 400K.hg/store/data/wisdom \ 2.5M.hg/store/data/test \ 12K.hg/store/data/maketext \ 44K.hg/store/data/p7zip__9.20.1/_d_o_c_s/_m_a_n_u_a_l/commands \ 108K
20:53:12 <HackEgo> 683) <shachaf> fizzie: What kind of speech recognition do you do? <shachaf> If you only need to recognize famous speeches, like Churchill or something, it should be pretty easy.
20:53:22 <HackEgo> 75) <Warrigal> So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot.
20:53:25 <HackEgo> 738) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
20:53:27 <HackEgo> 334) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
20:53:28 <HackEgo> 663) <oerjan> well, i have to assume if i'm going to make any asses
20:58:24 <Gregor> `echo HOLY SHIT GUYS I'M SO FAST RIGHT NOW
20:58:26 <HackEgo> HOLY SHIT GUYS I'M SO FAST RIGHT NOW
21:00:32 <HackEgo> 718) <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, "fungott" would [...] remind people of elliott. <fungot> fizzie: now that could be nice for a simple language can be used
21:00:59 <Taneb> Reading that after its happend loses the effect somewhat
21:01:13 <HackEgo> 163) [spam] Any flavored hell can pee on the pig pen, but it takes a real football team to throw a slyly optimal formless void at a hole puncher. \ 420) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 635) <elliott> ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
21:01:14 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:01:26 <HackEgo> 189) "Every physicist wants to violate Einstein, but thus far the great man has remained pretty chaste." --Kode Vicious
21:01:26 <HackEgo> 48) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
21:01:26 <HackEgo> 29) <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
21:01:26 <HackEgo> 810) <zzo38> But I still sign by my pens and use extra dots and shapes and so on so that I can claim I was threatened to sign it and put those dots there to warn you, or whatever
21:01:26 <HackEgo> 662) <kallisti> man, I love pseudo-random decision making <Gregor> kallisti: Man, I base most of my life on pseudo-random decision making. <oklopol> i usually just ask my dick and i then rarely even bother to listen
21:02:44 <FireFly> I wonder what a slyly optimal formless void is, and how you throw it at a hole puncher
21:05:12 <fungot> FireFly: it just means i'm always coming and going without so much as " dark side of the conversation).
21:07:02 <HackEgo> 222) <A. Gelman and G. Romero> We originally wrote this article in Word, but then we converted it to Latex to make it look more like science.
21:08:18 -!- ared_ has joined.
21:08:58 -!- ared_ has changed nick to xDEADCA7.
21:11:59 <shachaf> elliott: Did you write it yet?
21:13:11 -!- sonicspin has joined.
21:13:26 <HackEgo> sonicspin: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:14:27 <shachaf> Gregor: Would cat /dev/urandom still break it?
21:14:40 <HackEgo> Xe؍j仞 \ JZ3?%Oj߈9ђ4Nn(\E48qwc%J6^L/x&4ff1rdeP+[/\"osJL8u\R$J"z5.ellD 1h]|%*"O5wr2Ȥy5fްA[S.lY=ۥnd-XvՐDR7M b7릈SFm*4%hv<[hg2 >+jJϏɍxR|#I?AM1uTAI/o~3
21:14:53 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
21:15:03 <HackEgo> ԙV`V{b3bcSDr1o6T=I$f!KJX}%^aIm߮RѲf-61vżזouLW.@)N;8ѕP/]G?W fBӫȅpV ¼9w
21:15:54 <Taneb> My school's shouting at me so I do now!
21:16:17 <Taneb> York, Exeter, Edinburgh, Loughborough, Newcastle
21:17:21 <Phantom__Hoover> if you apply to warwick or birmingham we can have the biggest #esoteric meetup ever!
21:17:33 <Taneb> Haven't got the grades :(
21:17:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:17:57 <Taneb> ais523, ping re: birmingham university
21:18:29 <olsner> you can always go to farming school, like Sgeo
21:18:51 <Gregor> `quote poultry science
21:18:53 <HackEgo> 169) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two! \ 255) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but Purdue has poultry science facilities beyond the dreams of avarice.
21:20:41 <Taneb> Maths and Computer Science
21:20:48 <Taneb> Birmingham wants A*AA
21:22:48 <Taneb> You can't actually get A* at AS
21:22:50 <shachaf> Is this some sort of code?
21:22:56 <Taneb> But if you could, I would have?
21:23:22 <Phantom__Hoover> shachaf, England uses letter grades, with A* added on because grade inflation had made an A worthless.
21:23:50 <Taneb> AS is a qualification
21:23:57 <Taneb> Obtained roughly at age 16-17
21:24:05 <Taneb> It's worth half an A2
21:24:11 <Taneb> Which is obtained at 17-18
21:24:25 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there was this place (in norway?) which was so strict you couldn't get in with just perfect grades
21:24:29 <shachaf> So you confirm that it's some sort of code.
21:24:50 <Taneb> I don't completely understand it
21:24:51 <oerjan> you had to have some kind of bonus beyond high school
21:24:54 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, there's a continual stream of horror stories like that in the UK.
21:25:33 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean, Warwick and Cambridge both just flat-out expect you to sit their test as well as the national one for maths.
21:25:48 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, it occurs to me I have no idea what you look like
21:26:00 <Taneb> In fact, there are two people in this channel I know the appearance of
21:26:10 <olsner> I guess for any sufficiently popular education there will be more people with perfect grades applying than they have places
21:26:11 <shachaf> Phantom__Hoover is invisible.
21:26:30 <shachaf> I look like this: http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png
21:27:11 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, well if you see a young-ish girl with black hair in Hexham, that's probably elliott.
21:27:13 <oerjan> well, in norway there is a common system for applications, so i don't think they can make special demands like having their own tests.
21:27:38 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, in that case I know at least 8 of elliott
21:27:57 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm not entirely sure why Cambridge gets away with it TbH.
21:28:21 <Fiora> that would make me elliott too. though not in hexham. so I suppose not.
21:28:37 <Phantom__Hoover> Their test is a standardised pre-interview thing, and it's a lot less taxing.
21:29:06 <Fiora> I know stanford has a similar reputation with grades, they reject loooads of people with 4.1 GPAs and perfect SATs.
21:29:12 <Taneb> Fiora, how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
21:29:39 <oerjan> <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, in that case I know at least 8 of elliott <-- elliott has clones? makes sense.
21:30:08 <Taneb> Fiora, not the right age then
21:30:28 <oerjan> lessee i know what Taneb looks like, because he linked youtube, and ais (well a few years ago), because of the wolfram biography
21:30:45 <Taneb> oerjan, I've had a haircut since
21:30:47 <Phantom__Hoover> There are a /lot/ of people doing maths at Warwick because they couldn't get into Cambridge.
21:32:39 <Taneb> Screw it, I'm gonna apply to Birmingham
21:34:05 <Phantom__Hoover> ask your teacher to predict you a grade better in the thing you have a b for
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21:35:22 <oerjan> fiora also looks like a cartoon, i know that from her tumblr
21:35:38 <Fiora> yes, I am actually a purple-haired Tales character
21:35:57 <Fiora> it's a game, actually :P
21:36:11 <oerjan> ...i am using cartoon as the most general term here.
21:36:29 <oerjan> i was considering saying manga
21:36:29 -!- quintopia has joined.
21:36:30 <Fiora> (this is silly pedantry)
21:36:35 <Phantom__Hoover> but the fans of it get really pissed if you call it the wrong thing!
21:36:59 <Fiora> in extra fairness, like half the tales series has somehow ended up with anime adaptations too
21:37:23 <fizzie> Our "end of high school" exams assign a letter grade on the I/A/B/C/M/E/L scale, but at least the technical universities use the actual points (x/60) of the maths exam as an additional differentiator, presumably because of so many L's.
21:37:26 <oerjan> i'll just call it "tegneserie" and claim that all the other terms are completely unpronouncable in norwegian, ok?
21:37:34 <Phantom__Hoover> my impression of japanese things is that they exist in at least 5 manifestations in no less than 3 media
21:38:05 <Fiora> that's just the mega-franchises really
21:38:08 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, if you do that, eventually nobody in your school gets to go to university
21:38:47 <fizzie> And the E was added relatively recently too, to provide better resolution at the high end, it used to go directly to L from M.
21:40:46 <Taneb> Yeah, it kind of is
21:41:34 <shachaf> Not to be confused with the meta-franchises, where you can read a book about someone watching a film about someone playing a game.
21:42:41 <Fiora> would that be the sims?
21:43:00 <shachaf> Fiora: It would probably be the person watching you play the sims.
21:43:10 <oerjan> `addquote <Jafet> The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt
21:43:11 <Fiora> an LP of the Sims?
21:43:11 <shachaf> (You don't think you're at the top, do you?)
21:43:13 <HackEgo> 862) <Jafet> The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt
21:44:26 <shachaf> Can someone make elliott finish the thing?
21:44:47 <shachaf> Maybe I'll do it instead and do it really badly.
21:44:59 <shachaf> OK, constraint: The format has to be the same as the current one.
21:47:39 <shachaf> Gregor: How do I upload a script to HackEgo?
21:49:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:57:15 <Phantom__Hoover> (While the topic of education is still vaguely present: do you do calculus in high school in the US?)
21:57:36 <oerjan> <Gregor> ... then some clients are broken. <-- the ctcp specification actually says it can be anywhere in the message
21:58:01 <oerjan> thus, nearly _all_ clients are broken by not allowing it.
22:01:00 <Phantom__Hoover> whoah, american schools do a solid year of geometry and then two solid years of algebra?
22:01:38 <Phantom__Hoover> oh, a year of algebra, a year of geometry, then a year of algebra
22:01:48 <Gregor> oerjan: YOUR FACE IS BROKEN
22:01:52 <shachaf> I think trigonometry counts as algebra or something like that?
22:01:58 * shachaf has never quite understood the system.
22:02:15 <Phantom__Hoover> trigonometry is always counted as algebra because it's taught idiotically
22:02:33 <Fiora> I think it depends on the area, every state (and sometimes county) has differing systems
22:02:34 <shachaf> Everything is taught idiotically.
22:02:47 <Fiora> I did algebra I, geometry, algebra II, precalc
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22:03:14 <FreeFull> I think it's stupid that the US splits maths up like that
22:05:24 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -1
22:05:25 <HackEgo> 808) <Phantom_Hoover> BF derivatives are a cancer running throughout the fringes of the esolang community, and as the fringes vastly outweigh the core, we're screwed.
22:06:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:07:28 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:07:37 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -1
22:07:38 <HackEgo> 862) <Jafet> The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt
22:07:40 <fizzie> Wow, checking the changeset of that revert 0 was perhaps a bad idea. That's one big list of changes.
22:08:45 <HackEgo> 232) <ineiros> HELLWORLD! <fizzie> It's like HELLO WORLD, except not *quite*. <ineiros> There is more agony.
22:08:49 <HackEgo> 135) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
22:08:51 <HackEgo> 104) <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
22:08:54 <HackEgo> 12) <Warrigal> "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom
22:08:56 <HackEgo> 171) <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
22:09:03 <kmc> "HELLWORLD" reminds me of mrtaint.ko
22:09:12 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Arr.Array i0 e0'
22:09:29 <fizzie> Oh no, you can't do the "five `quote's, then they all appear in a row" thing anymore.
22:09:33 <kmc> `delquote 171
22:09:38 <HackEgo> *poof* <oklopol> well i just ate some stuff and watched family guy <oklopol> and i own a piano <oklopol> and i'm not wearing socks
22:09:52 <FireFly> Just introduce `quotes <N>
22:10:23 <fizzie> But that would run into line length limits.
22:10:36 <FireFly> it could still send separate messages
22:10:41 <FireFly> ...assuming that's possible
22:10:42 <fizzie> It could? How could it?
22:11:05 <fizzie> `run echo -e 'foo\nbar'
22:11:22 <fizzie> That's what it does to newlines.
22:11:32 <fizzie> Possibly there's a HACK to do it, but I'm not aware of one.
22:11:41 <FireFly> there could be a respond binary
22:11:45 <FireFly> but that could easily be abused
22:12:18 <FireFly> (one that's supplied by the environment and produces a single line, I mean)
22:12:24 <shachaf> `run printf '\x01ACTION blah\x01'
22:12:36 <olsner> `run echo -e 'foo\x00bar'
22:12:50 <shachaf> Did Gregor just take out \x03?
22:13:09 <fizzie> You can \x03. And \x1b.
22:13:34 <Gregor> Just no \x00 and no \x01.
22:14:04 <fizzie> `run printf '\x032so \x1b[31mcon\x035fusing\x1b[0m.'
22:14:55 <fizzie> Given that some clients don't do ANSI colors, perhaps you could use that kind of like the CSS conditional comment things to show different messages to different people.
22:15:42 <Gregor> My client certainly doesn't do ANSI.
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22:30:19 <oerjan> it's december 2012 after all
22:30:33 <Taneb> And I now lack a kitchen ceiling!
22:30:54 <oerjan> that sounds serious. you might want to call a carpenter or something.
22:31:02 <Gregor> `echo HackBot is the coolest bot.
22:31:03 <Taneb> We will in the morning
22:31:04 <HackEgo> HackBot is the coolest bot.
22:31:24 <fizzie> fungot: Are you going to just sit there and take talk like that?
22:31:25 <fungot> fizzie: just listen to it. do it right, even if it's an engineer model vs. mathematician model thing.
22:32:34 <shachaf> What's the matter with \x01?
22:34:27 <fizzie> According to the file name, this manual is the version that has the contents in Danish and "Finish".
22:34:58 <Taneb> I saw a book yesterday that was a phrasebook for "Danish, Norwegian, Swedish... and some Finnish."
22:34:59 <FireFly> I guess they didn't Finnish the translation
22:35:25 <olsner> FireFly: or rather that's what they did, but to the finnish translation
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22:37:02 <shachaf> People who tab-complete and then don't delete the space oughtn't exist.
22:37:05 <fizzie> It also mentions that I should follow the washing instruction tags in clothing in order to avoid an explosion.
22:37:07 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomilaiset ei P erkeleistä on hakkapellittään.
22:37:14 <HackEgo> bin/?: POSIX shell script text executable
22:37:24 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z) \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] || { echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; } \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
22:37:30 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomilaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapellittään.
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22:38:22 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomilaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapellittaan.
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22:38:37 <oerjan> sorry, meesed up the wolev armonhwy
22:38:58 <HackEgo> ? \ ais523 \ atriq \ augur \ banach-tarski \ boily \ bonvenon \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ england \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ freefull \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ gaspacho \ gazpacho \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ hexham \ hom
22:39:11 <FireFly> Sorry for the diverse highlights
22:39:12 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
22:39:29 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure. \ F
22:39:34 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/hom: No such file or directory
22:39:43 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
22:39:50 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/hom*: No such file or directory
22:39:55 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/h*: No such file or directory
22:40:00 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure. \ F
22:40:18 <HackEgo> Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus.
22:40:22 <FreeFull> shachaf: I might have restored a revision
22:40:36 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
22:40:40 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
22:40:46 <fungot> FreeFull: eval `(a b c))
22:40:47 <HackEgo> fungot cannot be stopped by that sword alone.
22:41:00 <fungot> FreeFull: once the forms are read it, there's an extra special guest coming to visit me at the moment.
22:41:17 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomilaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapellittaan. Ei saa peittää.
22:41:38 <oerjan> just adding a necessary warning.
22:41:41 <HackEgo> Finns are helpful, albeit grossly overpopulated (cf. 'Finland').
22:41:53 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
22:41:57 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
22:41:59 <HackEgo> Categories are just categories.
22:42:08 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomilaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapellittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
22:42:11 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
22:43:15 <HackEgo> Europe is the national anthem of the Republic of Kosovo.
22:43:21 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomilaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
22:44:43 <fizzie> fungot: Are you, in fact, written in Scheme? Is the Funge-98 source code you always give just a giant sham? #fungotgate
22:44:43 <fungot> fizzie: oh i see, and scheme48 would find them there automatically on startup. it's pretty easy to google.)
22:44:56 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
22:44:57 <fizzie> The truth is revealed.
22:45:40 <oerjan> i think it now might actually mean something.
22:48:15 <oerjan> Gregor: why is none of this showing up in the repository D:
22:49:28 <fizzie> The tailing part is just "Do not cover. Best before!", but the initial part is a bit vaguer.
22:49:53 <Gregor> oerjan: Because it HATES YOU
22:50:04 <Gregor> `run ls wisdom/*innish*
22:50:06 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*innish*: No such file or directory
22:50:47 <Gregor> Idonno, maybe learn is somehow weirdly incompatible with the new setup...
22:50:58 <Gregor> `learn Finnish isn't a real language.
22:51:07 <HackEgo> Finnish isn't a real language.
22:51:22 <Gregor> Hm. Maybe it has issues with Unicode still???
22:51:26 <HackEgo> ls wisdom/*inni*? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:52:01 <FireFly> `learn foo/bar this is a test
22:52:03 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: 4: cannot create wisdom/foo/bar: Directory nonexistent \ I knew that.
22:52:16 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
22:52:33 <HackEgo> Finnish isn't a real language.
22:53:02 <oerjan> looks very unicode related...
22:54:23 <oerjan> `run echo höm... >hm...
22:54:32 <HackEgo> cat: hm...: No such file or directory
22:55:45 <oerjan> ït cöüld pössïblÿ älrëädÿ hävë ëxïstëd.
22:56:48 <Gregor> `run echo ë > uuunicode
22:56:52 <copumpkin> http://html9responsiveboilerstrapjs.com/
22:56:58 <HackEgo> cat: uuunicod: No such file or directory
22:56:59 <HackEgo> cat: uuunicode: No such file or directory
22:57:55 <Bike> I like the documentation.
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23:36:37 <Gregor> I've got no fucking clue.
23:40:52 <oerjan> well, being 8 bit clean on everything that doesn't need to know unicode should be a good start.
23:40:59 <fizzie> Uuencode the uunicode.
23:41:15 <oerjan> `learn Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
23:41:24 <HackEgo> Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
23:43:36 <oerjan> i have (indirectly) made a monster...
23:43:40 <Gregor> `learn 🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
23:43:49 <HackEgo> 🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
23:44:32 <kmc> http://☃.net
23:45:36 <oerjan> it's a snowman? i thought it looked like a catface...
23:46:56 <oerjan> i don't know what that is, but google gives a search suggestion of r ay3 65.c om
23:47:01 <fizzie> This terminal does not recognize http://☃.net as a link.
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00:16:56 <lambdabot> http://sophos.berkeley.edu/macfarlane/pandoc/
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01:40:58 <lambdabot> s -> Getting (First a) s t a b -> Maybe a
01:41:27 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `_just' (imported from Control.Lens)
01:41:36 <lambdabot> (Applicative f, Prismatic k) => k (a -> f b) (Maybe a -> f (Maybe b))
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02:43:17 <kmc> you do it to yourself
02:45:02 -!- kmc has set topic: Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me... and God help us all... because you don't know what you ask of me. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:49:53 -!- oerjan has set topic: Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me... and God help us all... because you don't know what you ask of me. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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02:51:38 -!- shachaf has set topic: Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me... and God help us all... because you don't know what you ask of me. | http://cоdu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:52:21 <oerjan> > "Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me... and God help us all... because you don't know what you ask of me. | http://cоdu.org/logs/_esoteric/"
02:52:22 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
02:52:39 <oerjan> > "Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me... and God help us all..."
02:52:41 <lambdabot> "Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me....
02:53:01 <oerjan> > " because you don't know what you ask of me. | http://cоdu.org/logs/_esoteric/"
02:53:01 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
02:53:11 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
02:53:12 <oerjan> > " because you don't know what you ask of "
02:53:13 <lambdabot> " because you don't know what you ask of "
02:53:35 <oerjan> > "me. | http://cоdu.org/logs/_esoteric/"
02:53:35 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
02:53:43 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
02:53:53 <oerjan> > ".org/logs/_esoteric/"
02:53:54 <kmc> binary search itt
02:54:00 <shachaf> oerjan: I suspect there are more efficient ways of figuring that out.
02:54:04 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
02:54:21 <monqy> it's easy when you're url hilighter stops at the problem о
02:54:49 -!- shachaf has set topic: Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me... and God help us all... because you don't know what you ask of me. | http://cоdu.оrg/lоgs/_еsоtеric/.
02:55:09 <monqy> now the о is in codu and esoteric, shachaf?
02:55:32 <monqy> it's 1px off of o in my font
02:56:03 -!- shachaf has set topic: Yes I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I'm lying here... but God forgive me... and God help us all... because you don't know what you ask of me. | http://сodu.оrg/lоgs/_еsotеric/.
02:56:20 <monqy> oh no what did you do
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03:16:37 <kmc> ḧẗẗp̈:̈/̈/̈c̈öd̈ü.̈ör̈g̈/̈l̈ög̈s̈/̈_̈ës̈öẗër̈ïc̈/̈
03:17:25 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess none of the punctuation has diæreses.
03:17:42 <shachaf> Or maybe my font is just messed up!
03:17:52 <kmc> something weird happened in copy-paste-land
03:18:08 <Bike> "COMBINING_DIAERESIS" sounds like a disease.
03:18:32 <shachaf> COMBINING PALATALIZED HOOK BELOW
03:18:45 <shachaf> Sounds rather painful, in fact.
03:18:49 <Bike> how long do i have to live, doc
03:19:58 <shachaf> COMBINING GRAVE-ACUTE-GRAVE
03:20:09 <kmc> oh i blame mosh
03:20:28 <kmc> the umlauts disappear if i cat the same file inside mosh
03:20:36 <kmc> on a different server though
03:20:40 <kmc> so maybe it's a locale difference
03:20:50 <kmc> they're dots anyway
03:21:03 <kmc> is вхыыыыыыыыыы supposed to be like "whyyyyyyyyyyyy"
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03:23:23 <shachaf> GHC recompiles much more quickly when you touch the RTS than when you touch the compiler.
03:23:40 <shachaf> I suppose it doesn't have to recompile the compiler at all.
03:24:01 <kmc> compiling Haskell is slow
03:24:28 <shachaf> And you don't need to do the stage1/stage2 thing.
03:24:34 <shachaf> Well, I guess you don't really need that anyway.
03:28:05 <shachaf> Gregor: So should the new quote database keep an ordering?
03:28:11 <shachaf> I think ordered quotes are silly.
03:28:55 <Gregor> Ordering per se isn't important, but numbering or otherwise having short, easy-to-remember IDs is, and ordering seems to be the best way to do that.
03:29:03 <Gregor> Except of course that then we keep deleting them, breaking it.
03:29:16 <shachaf> No, we're going to make a new system where a quote is identified by a hash.
03:30:31 <shachaf> Gregor: ... how about yes?
03:30:32 <Gregor> Unless it's like a decimal hash of no more than four digits.
03:30:56 <shachaf> Three characters should be plenty.
03:31:16 * oerjan gently reminds people of the birthday paradox
03:31:36 <shachaf> We've already gone through it and figured out how long they need to be.
03:31:58 <shachaf> Anyway we'll just take the shortest unique prefix each time.
03:32:05 <Gregor> I mean, I'm not gonna stop anybody, I have little investment and the whole point of HackEgo is do whatever you want, but *eh*
03:32:40 <Gregor> It's just not memorable at all.
03:33:15 <Gregor> Three to four base-32 digits.
03:33:15 <shachaf> <Gregor> I've forgotten already.
03:33:34 <shachaf> I think it's just as memorable as three digits.
03:33:44 <quintopia> although i'm fine with just assigning them increasing integers that don't change when one is deleted
03:33:45 <shachaf> Because people are inefficient at remembering things from a small alphabet. :-(
03:33:47 <c00kiemon5ter> imo a sequence is simpler, "colission-free" and easier to remberer
03:33:59 <Gregor> Jumping from decimal to anything more than about base 12 and it becomes impossible.
03:34:23 <Bike> just have people type in the whole quote when they want to retrieve the quote.
03:34:26 <Gregor> Yeah, just not deleting numbers seems like the sensible way to go.
03:35:17 <shachaf> If by sensible you mean unsensible?
03:35:30 <shachaf> Bike's suggestion is good.
03:35:49 <Gregor> Yeah, being memorable, sequential AND constant, that'd be terrible.
03:36:54 <shachaf> The number shouldn't be part of the quote!
03:36:59 <shachaf> That'd mess the whole thing up.
03:37:55 <Gregor> ... dahell? Who's suggesting that? Or are you just pissy about the fact that order of addition affects quote identification?
03:37:57 <oerjan> i say quotahto, you say quotayto
03:40:13 <quintopia> you specify an id when you add a quote
03:40:21 <quintopia> if it's not unique, it doesn't get added
03:40:33 <quintopia> then people decide what's memorable
03:41:33 <Sgeo|web> And make it not indicate whether or not it was added, and hide the quote list for 24 hours after an attempted addition
03:41:41 <Sgeo|web> And 24 hours before an attempted addition
03:43:08 <shachaf> Even quintopia's suggestion is better.
03:44:48 <Gregor> How about do whatever the fuck you want because HackEgo isn't a democracy, it's anarchy.
03:47:44 * kmc throws a chair through the nearest starbucks window
03:49:04 <Sgeo|web> kmc: what if the nearest Starbucks is miles away?
03:49:09 <Sgeo|web> Is the nearest Starbucks miles away?
03:49:48 <oerjan> come and see the violence inherent in the system
03:51:17 <Gregor> HELP! HELP! I'M BEING OPPRESSED!
03:51:44 <HackEgo> 94) <Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
03:54:55 <lambdabot> tswett: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
03:55:12 <tswett> Let's assign each quote a number according to the order in which it was added.
03:55:46 <kmc> look deep into its soul
03:55:50 <HackEgo> 396) <oklofok> mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once <oklofok> and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. <oklofok> olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourse
03:56:00 <HackEgo> 48) <GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
03:56:07 <HackEgo> 516) <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Bashir, just sit there drinking, rather than diagnosing the carpenter mauled in that tragic bonobo accident.
03:56:12 <HackEgo> 119) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
03:56:17 <HackEgo> 290) <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
03:56:36 <kmc> `delquote 290
03:56:42 <HackEgo> *poof* <elliott> <Yahweasel> <Vorpal> that one doesn't make a lot of sense outside context. Unless it is supposed to be a rather lame joke about STD as in HIV, and so on // HELLO WELCOME TO QUOTE DATABASES 101
03:57:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quotwe395: not found
03:57:38 <tswett> Why is my terminal being slow. Stop being slow, my terminal.
03:59:41 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
04:01:39 <HackEgo> 395) <oklofok> mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once <oklofok> and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. <oklofok> olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourse
04:01:42 <HackEgo> 290) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual.
04:02:16 <HackEgo> 710) <fizzie> I saw a MythBusters show about that. (Or I guess it maybe was a tree.)
04:02:17 <HackEgo> 193) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
04:02:17 <HackEgo> 245) <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I have just one tvtropes page open in elinks, but my tvtropes.txt "queue" has 38 tvtropes.org URLs waiting for processing.
04:02:17 <HackEgo> 859) <Taneb> Gordon Moore's expected lifespan doubles every 18 months
04:02:19 <HackEgo> 371) <Sgeo_> "system is fairly sane <Sgeo_> <elliott> imagine if the roomba was called the Robotic Magic Vacuum <Sgeo_> <elliott> would you object to that being trademarked <Sgeo_> <monqy> I mean <Sgeo_> <monqy> phrase trade" <Sgeo_> oops
04:02:25 <tswett> elliott, naturally, forgot to take into account the varying efficacies of arbitrational vantages.
04:02:42 <Sgeo|web> elliott: monqy tswett despite not on list, Fiora
04:03:21 <tswett> Are you talking about that potato I read?
04:06:12 <Sgeo|web> Well, I don't know if you've read the potato
04:08:53 <oerjan> `run quote 395 | fmt -w80 | tail -1
04:08:55 <HackEgo> knows what sequences of drinks taste the best
04:09:10 <oerjan> `run quote 395 | fmt -w80 | tail -3
04:09:12 <HackEgo> of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. <oklofok> olsner: the \ point is you don't have to be the composer yourself <oklofok> not everyone \ knows what sequences of drinks taste the best
04:09:30 <tswett> This fan fic seems good enough overall, but it has a couple of blemishes.
04:09:39 <tswett> "You fiddle through the pantry, reaching in deep, standing on one foot for balance."
04:27:55 <Sgeo|web> Gregor: you should read potatoes
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04:39:25 <oerjan> potato reading, the new fad of scrying
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05:01:25 <shachaf> monqy: have you heard return to the neverhood
05:02:38 <HackEgo> WeThePeople: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:02:45 <Gregor> Damn it, it's TOO FAST now.
05:03:04 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:03:13 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:03:19 -!- WeThePeople has left ("Leaving").
05:03:21 <Gregor> > "It's not appreciably slower than lambdabot!"
05:03:22 <lambdabot> "It's not appreciably slower than lambdabot!"
05:03:35 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@@ @echo @echo hi"]}
05:03:36 <lambdabot> rest:"echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = \"freenode\", msgLBName = \"lambdabot\", msgPrefix = \"shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf\", msgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", msgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\":@@ @
05:03:45 <Gregor> Although apparently lambdabot becomes hyper-instantaneous on second request or something???
05:03:49 <Gregor> Or maybe I'm just lagged.
05:04:23 <shachaf> Bike: have you learned lens yet
05:04:55 <shachaf> @where+ lens https://lens.github.com/
05:05:02 <Sgeo|web> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003L7WF7A/?tag=047-20
05:05:05 <shachaf> @where+ lens http://lens.github.com/
05:05:20 <Bike> okay well that link is - oh, no https
05:06:12 <oerjan> it means u steel awr mohnee!
05:06:22 <Sgeo|web> I got the link from http://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/ if that's relevant, maybe the tag is some referral thing?
05:06:40 <Bike> man this doesn't even have any polynomials above the second degree does it
05:06:58 <shachaf> Bike: are you still talking about lens
05:07:09 <Sgeo|web> I'm mostly just facepalming about the 3(pi-.14) thing
05:07:32 <Bike> I don't think lens has polynomials. Am I wrong.
05:07:35 <Sgeo|web> Maybe they put that just above where the 9 normally is, in just the right spot?
05:08:13 <shachaf> Bike: It has algebraic types.
05:08:19 <Bike> Sgeo|web: bla bla Do Irrationals Really Exist?? bla bla
05:08:35 <shachaf> Well, the computable ones do.
05:08:49 <Bike> the multiple question marks are supposed to indicate that it's not meant as a serious question or worth talking about
05:08:53 <Bike> and: does type algebra have polynomials?
05:09:03 <Bike> i didn't think it did.
05:09:04 <shachaf> Bike: My answer was not completely serious either.
05:09:14 <Bike> blast, i should have known
05:09:38 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Num.Num (a0 b0 c0), GHC.Num.Num (a0 b'0 c'0))
05:09:49 <Bike> what the hell does three asterisks denote?
05:10:06 <shachaf> A thing with functions on tuples.
05:10:15 <Bike> oh. i was hoping tetration for shits/giggles
05:10:27 <lambdabot> Arrow a => a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b, b') (c, c')
05:11:18 <shachaf> > (f *** g) (x,y) -- better
05:11:20 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `c0' in the constraints:
05:11:32 <Bike> you're doing that just to amuse me, correct
05:11:34 <shachaf> > (f *** g) (x,y) :: (Expr,Expr)
05:11:43 <Bike> wow, what was that, me.
05:11:49 <lambdabot> `***' (imported from Control.Arrow),
05:11:49 <oerjan> ...it's some weird elementary school division symbol
05:12:02 <lambdabot> fd:9: commitBuffer: invalid argument (invalid character)
05:12:10 <oerjan> Bike: no, not that. on the clock.
05:12:14 <shachaf> ÷ works fine except that lambdabot is broken.
05:12:46 <Sgeo|web> Ok, I can't get the thing at position 11 on that clock to actually equal 11 with either obvious interpretation
05:12:48 <monqy> I think I've seen that clock
05:12:59 <monqy> oh was the clock linked in here
05:13:04 <monqy> I guess i'll see if I've seen it
05:13:05 <Bike> anyway, sgeo, obviously the point is to give it to math majors so that you can watch them explode atchu
05:13:33 <shachaf> > let f g x = g (g x) in f f f f (+1) 0
05:13:38 <shachaf> > let f g x = g (g x) in f f f f f (+1) 0
05:13:42 <oerjan> Sgeo|web: i said it's a weird division symbol
05:13:58 <Sgeo|web> Right, the thingy for long division
05:14:21 <monqy> explode in what sense
05:14:25 <Sgeo|web> I should learn to pay attention
05:15:07 <Bike> monqy: the sense ending with you covered in principia mathematica symbology written in blood
05:15:18 <monqy> oh i havent seen that clock
05:15:21 <monqy> but i've seen another clock
05:15:37 <monqy> people also buy Math Jokes 4 Mathy Folks [Paperback]
05:15:52 <Bike> oh, parse thing.
05:16:46 <Bike> «Some philosophers might take issue with such a Platonist view of the world - this belief in an absolute and eternal reality beyond human existence - but to my mind that is what makes them philosophers and not mathematicians
05:16:52 <Sgeo|web> The scary thing is that it shouldn't even LOOK like multiplication to our eyes in that context but it does
05:17:03 <Bike> why shouldn't it?
05:17:04 <monqy> i'm going to find some math jokes in this book
05:17:07 <monqy> watch out, mathy folks
05:17:30 <Sgeo|web> Bike: because Haskell doesn't have a thing where things next to eachother like that is multiplication
05:17:39 <monqy> What's the difference between an economist and a confused old man with Alzheimer's?
05:17:56 <Bike> obviously, but it's close enough
05:17:59 <monqy> The economist has a calculator.
05:18:30 <shachaf> Bike: Haskell has a thing where "x y" means "x"
05:18:52 <Bike> is that actually a haskell thing or is it a parse thing, because i'm used to parsers giving up like that
05:19:01 <Bike> also i didn't need five examples but thanks
05:19:05 <shachaf> It's a misleading lambdabot thing.
05:19:14 <Bike> makes more sense
05:19:15 <monqy> ps why does lambdabot have that thing
05:19:22 <shachaf> Actually "x y" means what "x(y)" usually means.
05:19:31 <shachaf> monqy: because cale. dont ask questions monqy!!!!!
05:19:38 <oerjan> because pointwise arithmetic is useful, in principle
05:19:42 <pikhq> monqy: Caleskell confuseth
05:19:48 <Bike> «No instance for (Num (t -> t1)) arising from the literal `3' at <interactive>:1:0-2» bullshit
05:19:55 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
05:19:56 <monqy> remember when caleskell had a funky type signature for flip, and (.) was fmap
05:20:02 <Bike> actually can you have functions named 3
05:20:03 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
05:20:05 <monqy> oh it's still fmap.......
05:20:06 <Bike> i would like that
05:20:15 <monqy> at least they fixed flip
05:20:25 <shachaf> 3 actually means "fromInteger (3::Integer)"
05:20:51 <Bike> :t fromInteger
05:21:03 <Bike> so, it's just a thunk that returns 3.
05:21:17 <oerjan> ...that's not the point.
05:21:50 <oerjan> > (3 :: Double, 3 :: Int, 3 :: Complex Float)
05:21:59 <Bike> ok, 3 as an integer?
05:22:11 <shachaf> instance Num MyValue where fromInteger :: Integer -> MyValue; fromInteger x = whatever
05:22:23 <oerjan> no, as whatever type you want
05:22:27 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
05:22:27 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
05:22:35 <Bike> then what's with the ::Integer in shachaf's type signature
05:22:48 <shachaf> Bike: (3::Integer) is my special syntax for the Integer value 3.
05:23:03 <shachaf> Which isn't polymorphic or anything. It's just an integer.
05:23:13 <Bike> that is what i assumed
05:23:27 <Bike> i'm pretty confused right now because i thought things made sense and then they didn't
05:24:09 <pikhq> Bike: Basically, you can define an unusual instance of Num and get functions out.
05:24:13 <Bike> maybe learning haskell from a brainfuck derivative/glasswork channel was a mistake.
05:24:42 <shachaf> Wait, which channel are you talking about?
05:24:43 <oerjan> Bike: basically, 3 means you expect it to when you use it as an Integer. for any other type, it gets converted with fromInteger.
05:24:57 <Bike> this channel. jokingly.
05:25:11 <Bike> because it's nominally about esoteric languages and more often about lenses.
05:25:14 <oerjan> this is not _necessarily_ a thunk, since it could be done at compilation.
05:25:36 <Bike> oerjan: i can't parse "means you expect it to". means you expect it to what?
05:26:57 <shachaf> This person in #haskell decided that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(functional_programming) should be their introduction to Haskell.
05:26:58 <Bike> so, 3 as a literal is "polymorphic"? for what i imagine is a different definition of "polymorphic" than i remember from C++ in 21 Days
05:27:15 <pikhq> Yes, 3 is polymorphic.
05:27:20 <Bike> shoulda been Monad_(category_theory)
05:27:39 <Bike> is literal 3.0 polymorphic?
05:27:54 <shachaf> (Unless you use the GHC extension I wrote!)
05:28:00 <Bike> Only morphs to types of floats?
05:28:13 <Bike> wow, what a badly constructed thought that was
05:28:17 <shachaf> Floating points are the devil.
05:28:19 <Bike> you can use it as a ratio?
05:28:54 <Bike> boy, i hope i can look forward to a generation of programmers using float syntax and thinking accurately that they have a rational
05:28:54 <oerjan> that's the fundamental meaning, everything else is converted from that type
05:29:03 <pikhq> Floats are the devil, and should not be considered numbers.
05:29:12 <shachaf> That's not float syntax, Bike.
05:29:22 <Bike> well, in programming it usually is.
05:29:37 <shachaf> There are many well-behaved types that can express 3.1.
05:29:44 <shachaf> Floating point values are not among them.
05:29:52 <monqy> > x-- // decrement x
05:30:01 <monqy> now x is decremented
05:30:11 <Bike> i'm just imagining someone arguing bout using 3.0 in a non-haskell program and insisting that it's accurate
05:30:24 <pikhq> 0.1 does not have an exact representation as a float. Joy.
05:30:53 <Bike> what if it's a base ten float, eh, don't be so computerbound!
05:31:12 <shachaf> Bike: Floats are computerbound.
05:31:22 <pikhq> I don't deal in base 10.
05:31:46 <Bike> not necessarily, you'd just have to be entertainingly nuts to use floats outside of 'em
05:32:42 <Bike> what would "all bases are base 10" even mean
05:32:53 <pikhq> Sgeo|web: Not if you follow Postel's Law.
05:33:25 <shachaf> monqy: are you going to learn lens on 12-12-12
05:33:31 <Sgeo|web> For any base b, the string "10" in that base represents b. (Might not be true for all bases, but surely for base two, ten, sixteen, etc)
05:33:52 <monqy> we won't know until then now will we !
05:34:13 <oerjan> shachaf: no, he'll learn it on 12-21-12, which will cause the end of the world.
05:34:30 <shachaf> oerjan: edwardk's talk is on 12-12-12
05:35:20 <shachaf> what about base balanced ternary!!
05:35:43 <oerjan> balanced ternary is fine
05:35:44 <shachaf> `run allquotes | grep Jafet
05:35:44 <Bike> now i want to go read taocp2 again, thanks shachaf
05:35:46 <HackEgo> 835) <Jafet> I wonder if Red Alert 4 will use MMIX \ 860) <Jafet> The world needs better healthcare, social justice and wealth distribution, but a monads library for clojure surely won't hurt
05:35:50 <Bike> Sgeo|web: it's unary. tallymarks.
05:36:09 <shachaf> oerjan: I suppose that's still 3.
05:36:21 <shachaf> Bike: I haven't read any of it!
05:36:27 <Bike> it's pretty rad
05:36:33 <shachaf> Also should I go to http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/musings.html on Friday?
05:36:35 <Bike> maybe you should wait for knuth to slightly unfuck his language though
05:36:35 <oerjan> now fibonacci base may have some trouble there
05:36:49 <Bike> anyway i mention it because he goes into floats
05:36:50 <oerjan> 10 is probably 2, i guess
05:36:57 <Bike> lots of fun stuff, like how they're not associative or whatever
05:37:04 <Bike> or even commutative? i forget
05:37:11 <shachaf> They're nothing desirable.
05:37:34 <Bike> well, they're useful in many contexts, just, as long as you know they're approximate
05:37:36 <hagb4rd> <Sgeo|web>Is base 1 even a base? <-- could be a problem with the notification of zero
05:37:44 <Bike> which most people don't
05:37:51 <oerjan> ieee floats are commutative, afair
05:38:17 <Bike> does that include snans and infinities, i wonder
05:38:40 <oerjan> (i was about to change = to == until i remembered nan :P)
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05:39:39 <oerjan> shouldn't leave the impression i actually read the standard
05:40:04 <pikhq> Not associative though.
05:41:19 <oerjan> i think that having addition be both commutative, associative and satisfy x+(-x) = 0 on a finite set of representations basically means you _must_ wrap around at some point.
05:42:19 <shachaf> Associativity is way more important than commutativity.
05:43:14 <oerjan> or even with just associativity, 1+1+1+1+...+1 must repeat at some point.
05:43:29 <oerjan> wait, who needs associativity, even.
05:44:04 <oerjan> 1+(1+(1+(...))) must repeat at some point, given a bounded size representation.
05:46:38 <oerjan> for ieee, that presumably happens once you reach 1+x == x by rounding.
05:47:26 <oerjan> while things like Word32 can wrap around back to 0
05:48:58 <oerjan> if you have the property (-1)+(1+x) == x for all x, then you are guaranteed wraparound to the beginning.
05:49:35 <Bike> "Many serious mathematicians have attempted to analyze a sequence of floating point operations rigorously, but have found the task so formidable that they have tried to be content with plausibility arguments instead." knuth you're not helping
05:50:14 <oerjan> shachaf: ok i guess undefined behavior also works
05:54:25 <Bike> hm, we do have ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u)) = u+v I guess
05:54:31 <Bike> that's pretty much as good as associativity, right
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05:55:17 <shachaf> @check \u v -> ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u)) == u+(v::Double)
05:55:41 <Bike> according to knuth. the proof's maybe a paragraph if you want me to dump it.
05:56:23 <Bike> What does check do?
05:56:46 <Bike> I thought that was just lambdabot messing with shachaf.
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05:56:54 <oerjan> @check \u v -> ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u)) == u+(v::Double)
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05:57:08 <shachaf> When it's not broken, @check will generate random inputs and check that your thing holds.
05:57:12 <Bike> Lambdabot, you should be a bit nicer.
05:57:20 <Bike> Golly, that doesn't seem that rigorous.
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05:57:44 <shachaf> Bike: Good enough for programmers, right?
05:58:34 <oerjan> it's good for that "not obviously false" feeling
06:00:15 <oerjan> also for that "obviously false" feeling, in other cases
06:00:40 <oerjan> (oh my poor ZipList Monad ;_;)
06:01:49 <Bike> > (\u v -> ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u))) (3.79::Double) (14::Double)
06:02:07 <Bike> > (\u v -> ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u))) (-4818::Double) (.3::Double)
06:02:08 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:58: parse error on input `::'
06:02:56 <Bike> i think one success and one parse error counts as a proof
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06:03:38 <Bike> relatedly, haskell doesn't allow .whatever, huh.
06:04:12 <Bike> are you some kind of decimal paladin, shachaf
06:04:56 <Bike> > (\u v -> ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u))) (-4818::Double) (0.3::Double) anyway this one works too
06:04:58 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `anyway'Not in scope: `this'Not in scope: `one'
06:05:10 <Bike> or would if i understood how lambdabot's parsey cutoff thing wored, which I don't.
06:05:17 <oerjan> for a certain value of works.
06:05:27 <shachaf> Bike: It doesn't actually do a cutoff thing.
06:05:28 <Bike> considering what "decimate" means it's appropriate, I think
06:05:45 <Bike> So what's with the > 3 4 thing.
06:05:57 <Bike> > (\u v -> ((u+v)-u)+((u+v)-((u+v)-u))) (-4818::Double) (0.3::Double) -- sing a song
06:06:01 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
06:06:01 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
06:06:02 <oerjan> Bike: that's not parsing, that's type hackery
06:06:22 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
06:06:22 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
06:06:29 <oerjan> what did shachaf do now.
06:06:30 <Bike> well, i'm confused now, but it's a lambdabot confusion and not a haskell confusion, so i'm gonna go ahead and not care
06:06:45 <shachaf> Bike: I got Cale to change it back to normal.
06:06:52 <shachaf> So now lambdabot is just a little more normal.
06:06:58 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
06:07:28 <Bike> so, why's this channel use such an apparently weird evalbot (speaking of which i thought dot was compose, why would it be fmap)
06:07:49 * oerjan belatedly swats shachaf for the base ten pun -----###
06:08:44 <oerjan> Bike: fmap = (.) for functions.
06:09:00 <shachaf> Bike: Mapping a function over the result of another function is like composing the two functions.
06:09:00 <oerjan> so it's a simple generalization.
06:09:22 <Bike> ugh, and here i was thinking i almost maybe understood functors
06:10:15 <Bike> "(((u+v)-v)+v)-v = (u+v)-v" anyway all of knuth's identities here kind of suck
06:11:11 <oerjan> Bike: just wait until you learn how functions are a Monad.
06:11:13 <Bike> oh, and that's only even valid for certain rounding modes. lovely.
06:11:40 <Bike> they're monads because they're functors and they form a monoid, right
06:12:17 <Bike> look when i say something stupid you can say "that's fucking stupid", it'll do me more good than some ellipses
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06:13:25 <oerjan> > (do x <- sin; y <- cos; return (x^2+y^2)) 42
06:14:14 <Bike> any particular reason you wrote that as a sequence instead of just an expression?
06:15:48 <shachaf> Do demonstrate what was going on with (r ->)
06:15:52 <oerjan> > liftM2(+)((^2)<$>sin)((^2)<$>cos) 42 -- OKAY
06:16:36 <Bike> i was just wondering if using the extra variables was supposed to fuck up accuracy or something
06:17:03 <oerjan> this was not a float demonstration, it was a function monad demonstration.
06:17:36 <Bike> oh, wow. i really fucked that up!
06:18:02 <fizzie> > (sin >>= \x -> cos >>= \y -> return (x^2+y^2)) 42 -- see, it's much clearer if you don't involve a "do" in it
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06:20:33 <Bike> muh, in local ghci the do thing doesn't work, says functions aren't a monad I think
06:20:44 <shachaf> :m + Control.Monad.Instances
06:21:31 <Bike> oh my, it's a full version number behind the one y'all yelled at gregor bout earlier.
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06:22:38 <shachaf> monqy: "not the same thing"
06:22:47 <monqy> "almost the same thing"
06:23:05 <monqy> or are you doing something wacky here......
06:23:33 <Bike> "The Monad.Reader is an electronic magazine about all things Haskell. It is less formal than journal, but more enduring than a wiki-page or blog post" cool
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07:51:01 <Jafet> > (1 - 1e-18) ** 6e16
07:51:20 <Jafet> > exp (- 6e16 * 1e-18)
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08:25:45 <Sgeo|web_> http://www.undefined.net/1/0/?strip=562
08:26:05 <Sgeo|web_> A spiral pattern that,,, also... has another form of movement
08:26:12 <Sgeo|web_> Should be sufficient for him to escape eventually
08:26:46 <Sgeo|web_> Hmm, although might be difficult to do that while panicky and scared and no reference points
08:28:19 <GreyKnight> So he could escape as long as the featureless white plain has a feature on it? :v
08:29:58 <Sgeo|web_> The idea is that he would go down into it to see how far down it goes
08:30:40 <GreyKnight> I was just wondering if I might've misread
08:31:08 <GreyKnight> (In fact you even used the word "movement")
08:31:42 <oerjan> living humans have trouble walking in a straight line without a reference point.
08:32:03 <Sgeo|web_> But if the spiral happened to be horizontal, it wouldn't work, so would also need... another direction of movement too
08:32:19 <Bike> so what you're saying is he needs to ballet through hell.
08:32:25 <oerjan> he wouldn't have a way of ensuring that he was actually moving in a spiral.
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08:33:13 <oerjan> otoh pure random movement _should_ get him back to the surface eventually :P
08:34:10 <Bike> living humans are bad at randomness too! gosh, we're so incompetent.
08:34:14 <GreyKnight> "You'll probably get back in finite time! What are you complaining about?!"
08:35:00 <Bike> wait shit wasn't he an electron
08:35:07 <Bike> they're not half bad at random
08:35:40 <shachaf> GreyKnight: Uh... oerjan does the swatting around here.
08:36:49 <Bike> hm, i wonder. in three dimensions random motion will get you away and all, but what about the direction? if hell extends infinitely downwards would he still be stuck there forever?
08:40:58 <oerjan> random motion will get you back along any one or two axes, so he should get back to the surface.
08:41:30 <oerjan> although probably not at the same point, but he can just go randomly along the surface.
08:41:54 <GreyKnight> Thus reducing the problem to a 2D random walk :-)
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08:42:25 <shachaf> Sgeo|web_: I was getting addicted to not knowing what you were addicted to.
08:42:28 <Bike> but then he'll return to his starting point!
08:42:29 <shachaf> But now I'm having withdrawal.
08:42:46 <oerjan> Bike: i thought that was the idea
08:42:56 <Bike> I mean, his starting point for eruption from the surface.
08:43:10 <oerjan> sure, as well as to any other point on the surface.
08:43:28 <Bike> he should just fly up and look.
08:43:31 <Sgeo|web_> fwiw, there's a large dead bear that's been converted into dirt on the surface
08:43:40 <oerjan> ...that sounds like a better idea XD
08:43:55 <Bike> dead bears are always a good idea.
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08:44:32 <GreyKnight> Sgeo|web_: so you thought you'd come and get us (re)addicted too? THANKS
08:45:42 <Bike> obviously what we need is tailsteak's hamsteaks fanart instead
08:50:49 <Bike> > signum (1/0)
08:51:04 <Bike> that seems bad.
08:51:25 <oerjan> i'd assume that's correct ieee behavior?
08:52:33 <Bike> hm, so it is. bother bother
08:52:57 <GreyKnight> So it goes to float because of the infinity?
08:53:11 <Bike> :t signum (1/0)
08:53:27 <Bike> is that a float? i thought i just learned it was just a rational
08:54:18 <Bike> > (0 :+ 1) / 0
08:54:35 <oerjan> it's a Double. Rational is just the type used for interpreting decimal notation _before_ converting it to the actual type.
08:54:55 <Bike> > (1 :+ 1) / 0
08:55:19 <Bike> L is so overrated
08:55:23 <oerjan> the default default declaration is "default (Integer, Double)"
08:55:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `NaN'
08:55:45 <Deewiant> > map signum [1/0, -1/0, 0/0, -0/0]
08:55:47 <oerjan> except sometimes it's "default ((), Integer, Double)"
08:56:14 <Bike> > signum (-0/0) -- negative 1, hopefully
08:56:27 <oerjan> that L.hs message is essentially just a lambdabot race condition of some sort.
08:56:32 <GreyKnight> (Well, I had after the discussion above, but not previously)
08:56:45 <lambdabot> cannot mix `GHC.Real./' [infixl 7] and prefix...
08:57:48 <oerjan> wait, nan's have well-defined signs?
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08:58:21 <Bike> don't think so?
08:59:04 <fizzie> IEEE nans do have signs.
08:59:10 <Deewiant> Alas, 0/0 seems to produce a negative NaN.
08:59:22 <fizzie> Whether it's "well-defined" is another matter.
08:59:45 <oerjan> it's conceivable it is comparing it to 0 in haskell
08:59:59 <oerjan> rather than using whatever the C function is
09:00:44 <lambdabot> Source not found. I feel much better now.
09:00:52 <GreyKnight> Okay, so 2/2 evaluates to a Fractional because Haskell doesn't want to have two possible result types for (/)
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09:01:02 <Deewiant> But signbit seems to give 128 for both 0.0/0 and -0.0/0 here.
09:01:27 <oerjan> GreyKnight: um Fractional isn't a type, it's a type class. there are several types it can give.
09:01:57 <shachaf> This is the best type class:
09:01:58 <lambdabot> class (Num a, Ord a) => Real a where
09:02:02 <GreyKnight> (Told you I wasn't very good at Haskell :v)
09:04:43 <GreyKnight> I am just trying to figure out why 2/2 doesn't end up as an integer
09:05:09 <oerjan> because Integer isn't a member of the Fractional type class
09:05:09 <Deewiant> Because of the type of (/) you looked at earlier.
09:05:43 <oerjan> that's integral division
09:06:15 <oerjan> > 2 `quot` 2 -- or this, different on ne... dammit Deewiant
09:06:32 <GreyKnight> Okay, so I was on the right track, just s/type/type class/ :-P
09:07:41 <oerjan> making things polymorphic over different number types was one of the main original reasons type classes were invented. then they found fancier uses.
09:11:46 <fizzie> 0xffffffff is the NaNniest (single-precision) NaN.
09:12:30 <shachaf> Do you people even read that thing?
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09:15:24 <fizzie> For the record, at least my ghci's signum does not actually look at the sign bit; http://sprunge.us/eUPP -- all NaNs are negative.
09:16:25 <shachaf> signum x | x == 0.0 = 0 | x > 0.0 = 1 | otherwise = negate 1
09:16:50 <Deewiant> fizzie: Methinks you're doing it wrong, or then my libc is also doing it wrong.
09:17:19 <shachaf> That's the Report's definition, of course.
09:17:45 <Deewiant> fizzie: Scratch that, I was doing it wrong.
09:19:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/hfiP -- it even prints as -nan.
09:20:39 <Deewiant> Using 'unsigned long long' like that is also doing it somewhat wrong, though it doesn't seem to matter there.
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09:22:39 <fizzie> What else except the usual things (not exactly defined representations for either unsigned long long or double) is wrong with it?
09:23:17 <fizzie> (I would've used uint64_t but was writing it in cat > tmp.c and hadn't remembered to #include <stdint.h>.)
09:24:09 <Deewiant> Hmm, I thought at least C11 would've mandated IEEE 754 but I guess not.
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09:24:50 <Deewiant> In that case it's a crapshoot anyway. I thought 'double' would be guaranteed 64 bits.
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09:25:32 <fizzie> I *could've* added #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error "uh what are you *on* there?" #endif to it.
09:26:12 <Deewiant> You still need uint64_t, making sure its sizeof is 8 and CHAR_BIT is 8.
09:26:37 <fizzie> I don't think I need those last two.
09:26:42 <Deewiant> Or I guess you can be CHAR_BIT agnostic as long as uint64_t is an exact multiple of it.
09:26:54 <Deewiant> Doesn't that avoid padding bits? Or are those included in CHAR_BIT.
09:27:16 <fizzie> uint64_t cannot have padding.
09:27:31 <Deewiant> Oh, that's mandated? Well that's convenient.
09:27:37 <fizzie> If it exists at all, it must be a multiple of CHAR_BIT.
09:27:44 <fizzie> It's not mandated to exist, though. :p
09:28:02 <Deewiant> Right, but if it doesn't it's a compilation error so that's fine.
09:28:24 <fizzie> I also don't think even __STDC_IEC_559__ mandates that byte order needs to be the same for 'double' and 'uint64_t', which would be an issue for the few systems where CHAR_BIT < 64.
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09:30:00 <Deewiant> 'double' in that case has a known order, though, so you just need to write your integer rightly.
09:31:56 <fizzie> (Two's-complement is also mandated for the fixed-width intN_t, for the record.)
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09:35:27 <fizzie> "The coin toss is the most platykurtic distribution" -- that's an awesome word.
09:37:14 <fizzie> Platykurtic platypus. (An Ubuntu code name?)
09:37:27 <Yonkie> vote for ubuntu, let's submit idea to them
09:37:38 <fizzie> Maybe for their next go-around; they already did a P.
09:40:15 <fizzie> Hrm. I reloaded the webmail, and the page was replaced by an otherwise-empty page except for the words "The custom error module does not recognize this error."
09:44:51 <Sgeo|web_> Help I slept for around 8 hours during the day and I can't seem to fall asleep now
09:45:10 <Sgeo|web_> Although I have a 4 page essay due on Tuesday and had plans to spend Monday working on it
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10:07:31 <hagb4rd> sgeo: you could start working on it now, till you get tired
10:08:05 <hagb4rd> the best method to get sleepy is still to try staying awake
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12:19:13 <fizzie> @tell zz038 Remember when you wanted { union { float f; unsigned u; }; f = 1.0f; dosomething(u); } be valid C, or at least a GCC extension? Turns out it in fact *is* valid C++.
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12:22:09 <fizzie> "An union of the form [thing like that] is an anonymous union. -- For the purposes of name lookup, the members of the anonymous union are considered to have been defined in the scope in which the anonymous union is declared."
12:22:52 <shachaf> Oh, I thought you meant using one value of the union after setting a different one.
12:23:06 <fizzie> It even gives an example of void f() { union { int a; char *p; }; a = 1; p = "Jennifer"; } "Here a and p are used like ordinary (nonmember) variables, but since they are union members they have the same address."
12:24:00 <fizzie> No, just the scoping; but using one value after setting a different one is legal C99 and C11, assuming reinterpreting the representation does not end up with a trap representation. (Don't know about C++ in that case.)
12:27:00 <fizzie> (Ref. C11 footnote 95: "If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called ‘‘type punning’’). This might be a trap representation." ...
12:27:06 <fizzie> ... Footnotes are non-normative, but the footnote is the only thing they added (in C99 TC-something, I think), so clearly they believe it's already deducible from the normative text. C99 did remove the explicit mention of it being undefined that C89 had.)
12:27:52 <shachaf> Oh, C89 is the one true C.
12:29:10 <fizzie> shachaf: http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=17782 "Status: X Withdrawn"
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12:33:03 <fizzie> Maybe I should clarify, though.
12:33:08 <fizzie> @tell zzo38 That is, the name lookup is done the way you wanted, with the members being considered defined in the scope in which the union is declared. I have not checked whether C++ makes it undefined to read an union member that was not the one last written to.
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15:31:57 <Taneb> But yeah, I've had about 120% of my recommended daily sugar intake in the past 5 minutes
15:34:14 <Taneb> And I'm not good at sugar
15:34:28 <kmc> why did you do a thing like that
15:34:52 <Taneb> I really fancied some coke
15:35:16 <Taneb> And now this 1.5L bottle is 2/3 empty
15:35:31 * Fiora prepares the insulin shots
15:37:10 <Taneb> I probably ought to modernize the family-tree library I wrote
15:39:42 <Taneb> Except I don't have Cabal here
15:40:26 <fizzie> I've heard there is no cabal.
15:40:57 <Taneb> Which will certainly explain why it isn't here
15:41:17 <Taneb> It's going to get creepy here soon
15:41:26 <Taneb> Like, deserted school creepy
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15:43:35 <Sgeo|school> I'm suddenly having visions of code I write being used by tryclj.com
15:44:07 <kmc> Sgeo|school joins and immediately says something about clojure
15:44:08 <kmc> take a shot
15:44:23 <Taneb> kmc, but I've already had too much coke!
15:44:30 <Taneb> And I don't have a shot glass
15:44:36 <kmc> alcohol balances out sugar/caffeine, everyone knows that
15:44:42 <kmc> [nb: not actually true]
15:46:12 <Fiora> if my experience generalizes I can imagine you conking out in about 1 hour :P
15:46:42 <Taneb> Okay, that will give me 17 minutes to wake up again
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15:53:50 -!- elliott has set topic: apparently people did dumb things to the topic so here's a new one http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:00:36 -!- FreeFull has set topic: apparently people did dumb things to the topic so here's a new one | Why not just have +t | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:07:52 -!- elliott has set topic: apparently people did dumb things to the topic so here's a new one http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:08:26 <elliott> `run echo -e '\003 14test'
16:09:33 <monqy> 3 according to a thing i found online
16:11:06 <elliott> how'd i do \003 without the 1 getting included after tho
16:11:10 <elliott> if only this was haskell and i had \&
16:12:23 <monqy> `run echo -e '\000314test'
16:16:27 <Fiora> http://www.extremetech.com/computing/142881-ibm-creates-first-cheap-commercially-viable-silicon-nanophotonic-chip hmm, nanophotonics
16:17:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Types.Int, GHC.Types.Int))
16:17:51 <monqy> was did there used to be an instance
16:26:08 <elliott> `run hg diff -c 1002 | patch
16:26:12 <HackEgo> patching file quotes \ Reversed (or previously applied) patch detected! Assume -R? [n] \ Apply anyway? [n] \ Skipping patch. \ 1 out of 1 hunk ignored -- saving rejects to file quotes.rej
16:26:28 <elliott> `run hg diff -c 1002 | patch -R
16:26:51 <HackEgo> changeset: 1017:b1a219757d6a \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Mon Dec 10 16:26:33 2012 +0000 \ summary: <elliott> hg diff -c 1002 | patch -R \ \ changeset: 1016:e960263d7a5f \ user: HackBot \ date: Mon Dec 10 16:26:27 2012 +0000 \ summary: <elliott> rm quotes.rej \ \ changeset: 1015:1cef8e6fa7e9
16:31:36 <elliott> Gregor: oh right I was going to ask if hackego could support ansi colours but it already does???
16:31:54 <Gregor> The only characters it rejects now are \x00 and \x01.
16:32:06 <elliott> you should remove the dumb botloo pprefix thing imho
16:32:12 <Gregor> I keep forgetting what we're talking about.
16:32:26 <Gregor> ANSI colors it doesn't filter, but it's not like they'll work for most IRC clients.
16:32:49 <Taneb> Don't remove the botloo prefix!
16:32:59 <Taneb> We'll end up with botpoo all over the channel
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16:35:12 <elliott> Gregor: right I meant mIRC
16:35:17 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. please remove the botloop thing it's so dumb
16:49:53 <elliott> ok but how about change your mind
16:50:14 <Gregor> I'll CONSIDER scheduling a change of heart.
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17:44:50 <GreyKnight> headache + train with screeching brakes = headache^2
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18:34:23 <hagb4rd> hm..headache + train with no screeching brakes = no head
18:36:30 <hagb4rd> but i guess i know what you're talking about.. have some trails directly in front of my window
18:36:43 <hagb4rd> just waiting for the right train to jump on
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18:45:28 <lambdabot> <cbeust_> says: Looks more like lenses reinvented Java Beans.
18:46:03 <elliott> @forget <cbeust_> Looks more like lenses reinvented Java Beans.
18:46:27 <nortti> does anyone here know where to find gcc 0.9 or 1.0?
18:47:45 <elliott> depends on how much haskell you know
18:47:58 <GreyKnight> All I know is they have something to do with getting a stab
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18:51:36 <elliott> do you know about functors and applicative functors
18:54:02 <shachaf> You don't need to "know about functors and applicative functors" to understand lenses.
18:54:16 <elliott> you need to know about fucntors and applicative functors to understand lens
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18:54:24 <elliott> maybe GreyKnight was referring to lenses in general though
18:55:41 <GreyKnight> Hm I did not know there was a difference
18:56:36 <elliott> well you can think of a lens from a to b as a getter and setter pair
18:57:03 <elliott> you have (a,b) -> b, (a,b) -> b -> (a,b)
18:57:24 <elliott> so you have a SimpleLens (a,b) b
18:57:47 <elliott> that's all there is to regular old lenses, really
18:57:57 <elliott> plus some obvious laws like get (set x y) = y
18:58:14 <elliott> you can, e.g. create a lens for each field of a record, which can both get the value in that field from a record and set it to something else
18:58:29 <GreyKnight> Does the name "lens" have some significance I'm not grasping?
18:58:46 <elliott> data SomeRecord = SomeRecord { a :: Int, b :: Int }
18:58:56 <elliott> data SomeRecord = SomeRecord { a :: (Int,Int), b :: Int }
18:59:25 <elliott> let's say you have a lens for the a field of that record (here you have get rec = a rec; set rec newA = rec { a = NewA })
18:59:36 <elliott> you can compose that with the lens for the second element of a tuple (which I showed above)
19:00:05 <elliott> and get the resulting lens acts like: get (SomeRecord { a = (1,2), b = 3 }) --> 2
19:00:19 <elliott> set (SomeRecord { a = (1,2), b = 3 }) 4 = SomeRecord { a = (1,4), b = 3 }
19:00:42 <elliott> you can just use this representation: data Lens a b = Lens { get :: a -> b, set :: a -> b -> a }
19:00:52 <elliott> then get :: Lens a b -> a -> b, set :: Lens a b -> a -> b -> a
19:01:18 <GreyKnight> And presumably you could construct lenses to access the other Ints in SomeRecord in the obvious fashion
19:01:26 <shachaf> GreyKnight: It lets you "focus" on some particular part of a structure.
19:01:44 <hagb4rd> or just any computed function of that field..right?
19:01:50 <elliott> compose :: Lens a b -> Lens b c -> Lens a c; compose lens1 lens2 = Lens { get = \x -> get lens2 (get lens1 x); set = \x y -> ...try writing this... }
19:01:57 <elliott> (I want you to try writing it because I'm too lazy to.)
19:02:03 <kmc> shachaf: my new laptop has shipped after all
19:02:08 <kmc> and the charge is back on the card
19:02:10 <kmc> so no free laptop :(
19:02:25 <elliott> Anyway the lens library itself uses the same basic ideas, but it uses a fancier representation that lets you write a lot of operations on them more nicely and compose them more conveniently and stuff.
19:02:48 <elliott> But lenses in general are very simple, you can just think of them as a getter-setter pair.
19:03:59 <elliott> if a lens is: (a -> b, a -> b -> a), you can think of a prism as: (b -> a, a -> Maybe b)
19:04:05 <elliott> they're actually more closely related than it looks
19:04:17 <elliott> but showing that involves slightly more complicated types
19:04:33 <elliott> a prism is basically a first class "constructor"... you can put a value in a constructor and possibly take it out
19:04:37 <elliott> data Foo = A Int | B String
19:04:42 <elliott> you have Prism Foo Int, Prism Foo String
19:04:53 <elliott> (A, \x -> case x of A y -> Just y; _ -> Nothing)
19:04:59 <elliott> and (B, \x _> case x of B y -> Just y; _ -> Nothing) respectively
19:06:38 <GreyKnight> Hm how come prisms use a -> Maybe b whereas lenses use a -> b ?
19:07:18 <elliott> you can't really see that they're related with those definitions
19:07:41 <GreyKnight> Lost my train of thought, stupid headache
19:08:27 <hagb4rd> yea, it's still not clear but thank for the kickstart elliott
19:09:05 <hagb4rd> at least i have basic idea now
19:09:30 <GreyKnight> Also they really do look like Haskell's answer to JavaBeans :-)
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19:10:50 <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter
19:11:19 <kmc> tomorrow is the ceremonial ground breaking on the boston Green Line Extension
19:11:45 <kmc> they are going to spend 7 years and one billion dollars to extend an existing light rail line about 6km along an existing rail corridor
19:12:03 <kmc> assuming there are no additional delays or cost overruns, of course
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19:21:19 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
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19:26:00 <GreyKnight> Hm we have Lens and Prism... what about Mirror?
19:26:23 <GreyKnight> It could implement reflection-like abilities :-)
19:27:00 * elliott sort of likes the idea of renaming Iso to Mirror
19:27:12 <elliott> it avoids the abbreviation and analogises well with Lens/Prism
19:28:54 <hagb4rd> we should talk with the marketing guys to change this
19:34:06 <hagb4rd> anyway..you may swat me hard, i'm still not really convinced haskell could be used to implement bigger software projects.. at least while not employing a bunch of scientists as programmers
19:34:25 <kmc> i think the 'lens' logo should be http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3b/Dark_Side_of_the_Moon.png/220px-Dark_Side_of_the_Moon.png
19:35:45 <elliott> Haskell is already used to implement bigger software projects by non-scientists though
19:35:53 <elliott> so your claim is too absurd to even need rebutting
19:38:41 <hagb4rd> the reference list litarature is a small time
19:41:10 <hagb4rd> elliott are you a student of computer science or sth?
19:41:18 <arcatan> personally, i'm not really convinced c++ could be used to implement bigger software projects...
19:41:40 <kmc> i'm not really convinced that bigger software projects can be implemented
19:41:48 <elliott> hagb4rd: depends on your definition of "student"
19:42:01 <arcatan> on second thought, yes, kmc, i'm not convinced of that either
19:42:04 <elliott> I think the idea of implementing bigger software projects in C is more unthinkable than doing so in Haskell anyway, and evidently that happens
19:43:58 <hagb4rd> no i'm really not into some religious war or sth..it's just that 70 to 80 percent of software-costs is mostly spent on maintance
19:44:18 <hagb4rd> and the code i've seen so far seems not be easy maintained
19:44:49 <elliott> and your average Haskell program can well be more easily maintainable than your average C program, assuming competent people for both tasks
19:45:16 <elliott> it is very easy to get lots of things wrong in C that just aren't possible to get wrong in Haskell, and experts get these things wrong all the time
19:45:22 <elliott> hence the existence of segfaults for reasons other than compiler bugs
19:45:22 <olsner> this discussion is quite elucidating
19:48:27 <hagb4rd> yep the experts you are talking about are at first not easy to get, and for this reason not very cheap.. i guess the technique u choose to implement a software solution cannot be decided in general for all time
19:50:10 <kmc> it's not impossible to get those things wrong in haskell either
19:50:31 <kmc> but you are only exposed to those errors in a small subset of the code you write
19:50:42 <elliott> kmc: well it is impossible for a Haskell 2010 program, compiled with a non-buggy compiler, that does not use the FFI, to segfault
19:50:59 <kmc> sure but real programs use the FFI
19:51:03 <elliott> admittedly, those conditions are not usually true
19:51:12 <elliott> but it's nothing compared to the fact that a C program uses the FFI every line :p
19:52:21 <Deewiant> It is quite possible for said Haskell 2010 program to terminate saying e.g. "head: empty list" or "fromJust: Nothing"
19:52:46 <Deewiant> Which is hardly better than a segfault
19:52:53 <Gregor> This is why I think JavaScript made a mistake in not letting you dereference or call undefined.
19:52:54 <kmc> it is better
19:53:01 <elliott> Deewiant: that is better in several ways
19:53:10 <Gregor> If they'd just made those return undefined, then it would barrel on endlessly no matter what you did :)
19:53:11 <kmc> a segfault is just a lucky outcome of undefined behavior
19:53:15 <elliott> for one, there is no security risk
19:53:22 <elliott> at least not the kind segfaults imply
19:53:41 <Deewiant> Right, that can matter in some contexts
19:53:47 <elliott> for two, you know that program will always output that under those conditions -- it is "reasonable behaviour", not just stuff going wrong
19:54:01 <elliott> for three you get a useful error message :P
19:54:16 <elliott> of course, that doesn't mean partial functions are a good thing
19:54:22 <elliott> but they're a lot less bad of a thing
19:54:39 <kmc> it's weird to pick Haskell as the exemplar memory safe language
19:54:56 <Deewiant> Re. two: in practice you usually know the other program will always segfault as well :-P
19:55:02 <elliott> I was just using memory unsafety as an obvious, universal example of something C does really badly
19:55:05 <kmc> no no no no no no
19:55:09 <kmc> Deewiant: no no no no no no no
19:55:34 <hagb4rd> last but not least if youthe everyday software programming is that sophisticated.. (it's almost boring) as many of
19:55:34 <arcatan> i wonder what are the biggest headaches experienced by the real maintenance programmers working on e.g. C++ or Java projects
19:55:37 <olsner> elliott: C does unsafety very *well*, you mean?
19:55:40 <kmc> a segfault is a lucky outcome of undefined behavior
19:55:43 <kmc> sometimes you don't get lucky
19:55:48 <arcatan> and how much programming language features affect that
19:56:08 <kmc> sometimes you get slightly wrong results
19:56:12 <kmc> sometimes you get permanent data corruption
19:56:17 <kmc> sometimes you get exploitable security holes
19:56:19 <Deewiant> kmc: In practice if it segfaulted once it usually will segfault the second time as well
19:56:27 <Deewiant> Or I don't know, usually in my programs
19:56:28 <kmc> C programmers who treat segfaults as the worst case outcome scare the fuck out of me
19:56:44 <kmc> sure "usually" meaning 99% of the time
19:56:50 <kmc> but now run that program in production for 10 years
19:56:55 <kmc> and also expose it to adversarial attackers
19:57:02 <kmc> some weird shit will happen
19:57:12 * elliott bets that 99% is more like 50% in the presence of pthreads.
19:57:12 <Deewiant> That's a situation I wouldn't want to put a C program in
19:57:30 <kmc> so you would not use C in production or for anything with security requirements
19:57:30 <elliott> Deewiant: sounds like an argument Haskell's failure conditions are better
19:57:31 <Deewiant> Re. three: there are more tools for finding the cause of segfaults than for "fromJust: Nothing" :-P
19:57:40 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd say it's situational
19:57:59 <Deewiant> Sometimes you care about not segfaulting, sometimes it's not that big a deal
19:58:11 <Deewiant> not having the possibility of segfault*
19:58:20 <kmc> again "segfault" is the symptom and it's the mildest of all symptom
19:58:31 <Deewiant> I'm not disagreeing with you on that
19:58:33 <elliott> if a segfault isn't a problem I don't see how head [] can be
19:58:35 <kmc> it's like if i said it's ok to get AIDS because having a cough is not so bad
19:58:53 <kmc> hella sequitur
19:58:56 <hagb4rd> exactly.. i'm sure haskell has its advatages.. in many use cases
19:59:09 <elliott> can we just say "invalid memory access" instead of "segfault" instead
19:59:19 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd rather see a C segfault than a Haskell 'head []' when developing something unless GHC's debugging facilities have improved to the point that I can find the latter quickly
19:59:30 <elliott> you can use -xc to get a backtrace these days
19:59:48 <elliott> another point is that it's a lot easier to write Haskell that doesn't use partial functions than it is to write a C program that has no risk of segfault
19:59:48 <kmc> it's a RTS flag
20:00:04 <Deewiant> ghc: the flag -xc requires the program to be built with -prof
20:00:16 <Deewiant> That's a bit annoying but oh well
20:00:24 <kmc> again it's weird that this discussion of memory safety is "C vs Haskell" and not "C vs almost every other language"
20:00:36 <elliott> well it was a C vs. Haskell thing
20:00:42 <kmc> i agree that GHC's debugging and error-finding tools are shitty
20:00:44 <elliott> just the subject ate the ject
20:00:53 <elliott> originally said the subsubject ate the subject but decided that was redundant
20:00:55 <Deewiant> elliott: And yes, it is, but it's not easy :-P Now you have to be very careful about all library code etc
20:00:58 <arcatan> if we're still talking about long-term software projects started today, I don't think that C will be the language of choice for many of them
20:01:09 <kmc> a lot of Haskell tools suck even though these problems should be easier in Haskell
20:01:12 <kmc> just because it is a niche language
20:01:12 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm like 10x more paranoid of C libraries than Haskell libraries
20:01:57 <Deewiant> kmc: Right, much (all? I forget) of my argument regards the tooling
20:02:14 <Deewiant> elliott: Sure, I didn't say C is any easier :-)
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20:04:32 <elliott> anyway I would rather maintain a badly-written Haskell program than a badly-written C program at the very least
20:05:12 <kmc> i don't necessarily agree with that elliott
20:05:32 <Deewiant> If they're equally large, I'm not so sure either
20:05:59 <kmc> my idea of a badly-written Haskell program is that 10 people worked on it, and each one thought they were super clever, but also fundamentally misunderstood at least one aspect of the language
20:06:13 <kmc> and so it will be full of excessively clever things that don't quite make sense and don't fit together
20:06:27 <kmc> in other words more like C++ than C
20:07:12 <kmc> C has a lot of problems and badly written C code is a nightmare, but it doesn't have this problem in particular
20:07:17 <kmc> it does depend on context though
20:07:41 <kmc> if security is extremely important, and the program will be exposed to lots of malicious input, i will still prefer the badly written haskell code
20:07:49 <elliott> I think it's generally easier to make a Haskell program less dumb.
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20:08:04 <elliott> if security is extremely important I'd rather not be maintaining the program whatever language it's in :P
20:08:06 <kmc> or else treat the C program as untrusted and heavily sandbox it
20:08:38 <hagb4rd> it's that code should be understood and basically easy read if possible.. so putting 10 lines of code into one that makes you look pretty clever is the one of the worst case scenarios when it comes to maintenance
20:10:09 <kmc> and haskell doesn't have to be written that way, but it often is
20:10:20 <kmc> because most people writing haskell are excited beginners and not seasoned professionals
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20:11:32 <elliott> well you can do exactly the same in C
20:11:33 <kmc> however 1 really clever function that gets used 50 times is better than 50 separate simple functions
20:11:46 <elliott> and I'd prefer to refactor the Haskell
20:11:54 <hagb4rd> and i admit my first impression of haskell was that there are ways to express things shorter without loosing readability
20:12:51 <hagb4rd> especially handling data stuff
20:14:06 <hagb4rd> thanks to the guys that implemented the lambda calculus in c#.. that would be the next i miss in c
20:15:00 <hagb4rd> i'm sure the one thing elliott hates more than c is c#
20:15:14 <kmc> C# is a pretty good language
20:15:16 <kmc> it is memory safe
20:15:35 <kmc> it supports many styles well, including expressive functional programming
20:16:07 <kmc> it has LINQ
20:16:28 <hagb4rd> and mono is evolving pretty well so far
20:16:52 <kmc> that's good
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21:11:57 <kmc> "Apple Maps 'is life-threatening' to motorists lost in Australia heat"
21:14:22 <elliott> it's not life-threatening, just 'life threatening'
21:17:04 <fizzie> A Finnish paper had that (well, similar) headline today too.
21:17:15 <fizzie> Guns don't kill people, Apple Maps kill people.
21:17:24 <olsner> Australia kills people
21:17:24 <fizzie> (That wasn't the headline.)
21:18:32 <elliott> I think fizzie should write the headlines
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21:20:14 <fizzie> We just bought Helsinki-Imatra-Helsinki train tickets (that's about 250 km one way) for two, and they cost substantially less than the local regional traffic tickets we'll need to get to the Helsinki Central Railway Station.
21:21:06 <kmc> with ryanair and such, you can spend less on a plane ticket than on getting to the airport :)
21:21:13 <kmc> i've also taken a $2.50 metro ride to a $1 intercity bus
21:21:24 <fizzie> They're running this "advent calendar" thing where there's every day a new (A, B) pair and a set of particular trains between those points, and it costs fixed 1.50 eur/person.
21:22:05 <fizzie> And of course it's only valid if bought during that day.
21:22:07 <fizzie> (The local traffic trip is something like 3.37 eur or thereabouts when bought with the RFID card dealie.)
21:22:53 <kmc> so you have to go on the day of purchase? do they list the city pairs ahead of time?
21:23:35 <fizzie> No, you just have to purchase today; the travel times vary a bit, but for today's deal it was something like January 7th to January 31st.
21:24:09 <fizzie> (And therefore the routes aren't revealed in advance, of course.)
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21:24:52 <Gregor> elliott: Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey here's a thought.
21:25:05 <Gregor> elliott: http://phantomjs.org/ + some glue code = modern textmode browser.
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21:25:10 <fizzie> We did have to take the 07:12am train instead of the more human-friendly 10:12am one since the other one was already sold out (it's 11:25pm here so today's deal was quite old), but still.
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21:25:33 <elliott> quite far away from any thought I was expecting you to tell me
21:25:48 <kmc> by "local traffic tickets" do you mean a local train or something else?
21:25:50 <elliott> "PhantomJS is an optimal solution for" not sure they know what "optimal" means
21:25:51 <Gregor> elliott: Probably over a year ago we (or perhaps not you at all) were discussing how shitty text mode browsers are ;)
21:26:07 <kmc> a beautiful, elegant, awesome browser that celebrates craftsmanship
21:26:32 <elliott> Wait, what is that referencing? I thought I knew but now I don't.
21:27:35 <olsner> internet explorer, right?
21:28:46 <kmc> https://addons.heroku.com/bonsai
21:29:47 <fizzie> kmc: The Helsinki/Espoo/Vantaa/Kauniainen regional area has pretty much just one type of tickets for trains/subway/buses/trams, so I mean those. (There's one price for in-city traffic, and another for the four-city zone... and then it gets more confusing, since the regional traffic... conglomeration sells bus-and-train tickets also for the neighbour municipalities, while the railway company ...
21:29:53 <fizzie> ... sells train-only tickets for those places, with completely different pricing schemas; but that's not really relevant any longer; and anyway who'd want to go there?)
21:30:17 <fizzie> (Uh, and Kauniainen counts as Espoo for the purposes of local traffic, because it's an enclave city kind of thing. Finland's last one, in fact.)
21:31:06 <elliott> fizzie: did you count where you'd need to put those ...s
21:31:18 <fizzie> I think by 2015 they have a new thing where they set up new fare zones and forget the actual city boundaries, since they're not terribly logical. (The new zones are roughly circular bands around the Helsinki centrum.)
21:31:24 <fizzie> elliott: No, it was splitlong.pl.
21:32:08 <fizzie> Well, it puts what you /set splitlong_line_end to the end, and splitlong_line_start to the start.
21:32:20 <fizzie> But they default to " ..." and "... ". (Or maybe the spaces are implicit.)
21:32:31 <fizzie> (No, they're explicit.)
21:33:12 <fizzie> You could have splitlong_line_end of "\" and splitlong_line_end of "" for a kind of a programmer's approach.
21:34:04 <elliott> splitlong_line_end = "HEY WAIT A SECOND JUST GONNA INSERT A LINEBREAK HERE"
21:34:12 <elliott> splitlong_line_end = "OK AS I WAS SAYING: "
21:34:22 <elliott> I copied the mistake from fizzie's line
21:35:18 <Gregor> Wow, elliott, that's a HEY WAIT A SECOND JUST GONNA INSERT A LINEBREAK HERE
21:35:23 <Gregor> OK AS I WAS SAYING: great idea.
21:35:42 <fizzie> OK AS I WAS SAYING: HEY WAIT A SECOND JUST GONNA INSERT A LINEBREAK HERE
21:35:43 <fizzie> OK AS I WAS SAYING: HEY WAIT A SECOND JUST GONNA INSERT A LINEBREAK HERE
21:35:43 <fizzie> OK AS I WAS SAYING: HEY WAIT A SECOND JUST GONNA INSERT A LINEBREAK HERE
21:35:47 <fizzie> You want that kind of a loop.
21:36:12 <fizzie> (I don't know what happens if you do set them long enough to result in that.)
21:36:21 <fizzie> (I suspect it's going to explode.)
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22:31:49 <kmc> "Sundown is a zero-dependency library composed of 3 .c files and their headers. No dependencies, no bullshit."
22:31:52 <kmc> yeah fuck that "code reuse" bullshit
22:32:13 <kmc> real hackers etc
22:32:39 <elliott> I see kmc has never tried to install an edwardk package
22:34:22 <shachaf> kmc: Does it still depend on a C compiler?
22:34:38 <kmc> Real Hackers can compile C by hand
22:34:45 <kmc> otherwise how would you know it's secure?!?!?
22:36:11 <hagb4rd> one more and i start to think it was ironic :p
22:36:23 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear NumInstances is out of lambdabot?
22:37:29 <shachaf> It was confusing someone in here.
22:37:32 <shachaf> I told Cale it was confusing.
22:37:52 <shachaf> And now 14:32 <edwardk> man shachaf is the death of fun in #haskell ;)
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22:43:48 <FireFly> Is Caleskell documented anywhere?
22:44:55 <olsner> documented only in the cries of horrified and confused beginners
22:45:13 <kmc> just avoid lambdabot on Malbolge Mondays
22:45:20 <kmc> when @run runs Malbolge instead of Haskell
22:54:58 <HackEgo> Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
22:55:21 <shachaf> Did you write the new `quote?
22:57:44 <olsner> 120 lines! for adding a line of text to a text file?
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23:13:26 <oerjan> `addquote <GreyKnight> headache + train with screeching brakes = headache^2 <hagb4rd> hm..headache + train with no screeching brakes = no head <GreyKnight> On the plus side, no headache anymore
23:13:29 <HackEgo> 862) <GreyKnight> headache + train with screeching brakes = headache^2 <hagb4rd> hm..headache + train with no screeching brakes = no head <GreyKnight> On the plus side, no headache anymore
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23:21:54 <oerjan> `addquote [after discussing Haskell lenses] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <<GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
23:21:57 <HackEgo> 863) [after discussing Haskell lenses] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <<GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
23:22:18 <oerjan> `addquote [after discussing Haskell lenses] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
23:22:21 <HackEgo> 863) [after discussing Haskell lenses] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
23:22:36 <elliott> oerjan: "discussing lens", surely.
23:22:41 <elliott> well, I guess it was just lenses in general
23:22:45 <elliott> but they're not Haskell-specific!
23:23:06 <oerjan> perhaps that should go in lam... oh it's not here
23:23:35 <HackEgo> *poof* [after discussing Haskell lenses] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
23:24:10 <oerjan> `addquote [after discussing lens] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
23:24:13 <HackEgo> 863) [after discussing lens] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
23:26:59 <Gregor> JEEZ guys, double space.
23:27:48 <oerjan> <elliott> but it's nothing compared to the fact that a C program uses the FFI every line :p <-- that darn C-to-C ffi, so convenient but dangerous
23:28:21 <oerjan> hm? no double space around [...] in..cisions
23:29:29 <elliott> Gregor: that quote follows the standards.
23:29:55 <olsner> cuts in the quote = incisions, makes sense
23:29:58 * oerjan wasn't entirely sure himself
23:30:29 <Gregor> `echo HALP GUYS I'M TOO FAST
23:30:39 <elliott> Gregor: want me to de-optimise hackego?
23:30:44 <olsner> who cares if it's the right word if it means something vaguely similar to what you mean
23:31:00 <Gregor> It would be cool if UML could be made to blow up if you try to write.
23:31:02 <shachaf> echo 'echo sleep 0.1 >> .bashrc' >> .bashrc
23:31:20 <Gregor> Blow-up-on-write is clearly the best write policy.
23:31:55 <elliott> shouldn't be very long with FUSE
23:32:18 <elliott> Gregor: in fact you could unionfs the normal FS and a FUSE empty-but-stops-everything-on-any-write FS
23:33:05 <Gregor> I'm not sure whether the current slowdown is mostly launching UML or `hg status` though. If it's the former, then there's not much point to piling more on that ;)
23:33:10 <elliott> presumably the latter would send a message to the hackego supervisor stuff
23:33:31 <elliott> Gregor: well it should be easy to time them with python
23:33:48 <elliott> Gregor: I forget, what does your UML use as init?
23:33:49 <Gregor> But I'm sooooo laaaaazy :(
23:34:07 <Gregor> init just mounts some shit then runs what you asked.
23:34:22 <elliott> Right, I was wondering what the init itself is
23:34:25 <elliott> So I could micro-optimise it
23:34:53 <Gregor> I doubt that it's the problem, probably the kernel is, but: https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/umlbox/src/802cc63695cab6922b1b1f8c7815612c4f8dc3a4/init.c?at=default
23:35:26 <elliott> Gregor: Oh right, you could probably save a good amount of time by stripping down the kernel
23:35:52 <Gregor> I was trying to figure out if I can remove the bogomips calculation.
23:35:56 <Gregor> That's pretty retarded and takes time.
23:36:04 <Gregor> Or rather, can't find an option for it.
23:38:01 <elliott> Gregor: it occurs to me that you don't necessarily need to use hg status
23:38:12 <elliott> you could compare the dir trees with diff or something
23:38:16 <elliott> I suspect hg status is not super-optimised
23:38:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1294
23:38:56 <Gregor> | `-- \357\274\267\357\274\245\357\274\254\357\274\243\357\274\257\357\274\255\357\274\245 lolwut
23:38:57 <elliott> Gregor: in fact... it may be that how UML/UMLBox works means files always change inode on being modified?
23:39:04 <oerjan> fizzie: found fungot failure, fix fast!
23:39:06 <elliott> that would let you check whether anything changed superfast
23:39:28 <elliott> Gregor: Why is all the EgoBot stuff in HackEgo...
23:39:34 <Gregor> elliott: I'm working on merging them.
23:39:57 <elliott> You could at least put them in a separate bin directory so the `/! separation could be maintained and `ls bin` didn't give a bunch of crap
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23:40:48 <Gregor> (Note: I don't WANT to maintain the `/! separation)
23:41:04 <elliott> well you can still separate the paths
23:41:11 <olsner> how is fungot's twitter stream doing these days?
23:41:11 <fungot> olsner: this is prob a premature question... but what would it do? where were you from?
23:41:19 <FireFly> Gregor: maybe that's your unicode goat in UTF-8
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23:41:35 <Gregor> FireFly: 's not that many characters...
23:41:38 <fizzie> olsner: I keep forgetting to restart the poster script.
23:41:39 <elliott> that should speed things up
23:42:30 <elliott> Gregor: by the way what should I call hg diff -c "$1" | patch -R
23:43:14 <Gregor> elliott: backout is the mercurial name for a similar operation.
23:43:54 <oerjan> <elliott> probably not a good idea <-- wait why not
23:44:07 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/perl: 3: Cannot fork
23:44:08 <elliott> Gregor: I bet HackEgo would be faster if it used git
23:44:14 <Gregor> elliott: Quite probably.
23:44:16 <oerjan> elliott: are the logs in paste/ ?
23:44:21 <elliott> Gregor: I like how you broke "perl".
23:44:27 <Gregor> elliott: But I'm still not sure if hg is even the slow part.
23:44:40 <Gregor> I was wondering wtf was going on there X-D
23:44:40 <oerjan> oh you mean references from the logs to paste/
23:44:49 <HackEgo> ＦＩＲＥＦＬＹ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡ
23:45:00 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:45:03 <FireFly> I'll make sure to check out that wiki
23:45:11 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. nice Unicode failure pls fix?
23:45:23 <Gregor> I don't have any clue why that happened X-D
23:45:29 * elliott thinks rm bin/perl is a bit of an incomplete solution to this problem...
23:45:38 <elliott> I note that this is a good argument for the !/` distinction :P
23:45:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ
23:46:01 <elliott> Gregor: The Unicode failure is on HackEgo's part
23:46:05 <olsner> rm bin/perl must be a step in the right direction though
23:46:14 <elliott> You should .decode('utf-8') before length-limiting
23:46:28 <elliott> I guess you need a loop since IRC's bounds are probably byte-based
23:46:31 <Gregor> No, I just want Python to treat it as raw, 8-bit crap.
23:46:31 <olsner> (but beware, there may be more copies of perl)
23:46:46 <elliott> Gregor: ...so you want that to be fucked up?
23:47:04 <Gregor> elliott: Cutting off mid-character is not a significant problem.
23:47:34 <Gregor> OHWAIT is it displaying like that because it cut off mid-character so my client went “ehhhh Latin-1”
23:48:33 <Gregor> `run ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ Gregor | head -c 3
23:48:52 <olsner> ah, I guess that's why it's broken for me too
23:49:12 <Gregor> I was kinda hoping that output wouldn't have to be valid UTF-8 though...
23:49:40 <Gregor> elliott: I will, but not whilst at work.
23:50:02 <Gregor> I'll try to make it so that if it fails to decode as UTF-8, it just does bytewise limiting.
23:50:31 <elliott> by "that" I meant LANG being unset
23:50:43 <Gregor> LANGuage is for losers though.
23:50:51 <elliott> it'd fix the head -c 3 thing
23:51:05 <Gregor> I chose 3 precisely so it'd output what I expected X-D
23:51:22 <elliott> problem with limiting UTF-8ly is that it's hard to maintain byte bounds without just chopping off one char at a time until it's fixed
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23:54:14 <Gregor> elliott: I'm thinking, (1) decode as UTF-8. If it doesn't decode, just use bytes. (2) Cut it off to a byte limit, then decode in a mode I'm hoping Python provides, “throw bad shit away”, (3) Re-encode and send
23:55:09 <elliott> Gregor: That sounds much worse than just while len(encoded) < limit: str = str[:-1]; encoded = str.encode('utf-8')
23:55:33 <elliott> (After you do pre_decoded_str = pre_decoded_str[:limit]; str = pre_decoded_str.decode('utf-8'))
23:55:39 <elliott> (So most of the time it'll never even get into that loop)
23:55:56 <Gregor> elliott: I want to preserve incorrect strings.
23:56:04 <fizzie> It does have that mode, though, unless I misremember.
23:56:11 <Gregor> Ohwait, no, you mean for (2).
23:56:13 <zzo38> What are you trying to decode?
23:56:15 <Gregor> No, mine is considerably more efficient.
23:56:23 <elliott> after you do str = str[:limit]
23:56:35 <elliott> Gregor: Throwing bad shit away is so gross :(
23:57:22 <Gregor> elliott: Bad shit only occurs at the end of the string because you cut it off.
23:57:30 <Gregor> I only run (2) if the whole string is valid.
23:58:51 <HackEgo> LANG=zh_TW.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="zh_TW
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00:00:27 <HackEgo> 二 12月 11 00:00:26 UTC 2012
00:00:27 <HackEgo> LANG=zh_TW.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="zh_TW.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="zh_TW
00:00:30 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
00:00:47 <HackEgo> välkommen Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
00:00:51 <Gregor> Darn, guess I'll have to install the locale files for gcc!
00:01:15 <oerjan> FireFly: um should that first word be there?
00:02:50 <oerjan> elliott hates swedish, clearly
00:03:03 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:03:05 <HackEgo> mationel omspellet oordrin paschef byggorna vintränas avtalls duellt förmer systationat vidualera ten efter bakplatselet dånadegra skadespens omvänden örordnarna abordningar iakonia skockens munikat bedräggnit derna råddar
00:03:36 <hagb4rd> yes, he's not in the best mood today
00:04:37 <zzo38> You could, instead of trying UTF-8 or not, make it an option whether it is UTF-8 or whether it is single-byte encoding.
00:05:09 <oerjan> `echo "Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)" >wisdom/välkommen
00:05:10 <HackEgo> "Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)" >wisdom/välkommen
00:05:16 <oerjan> `run echo "Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)" >wisdom/välkommen
00:05:27 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
00:05:45 <fizzie> oerjan: You should make a combined SE/NO/DK welcome, like they have in shampoo bottles and the like.
00:07:09 <HackEgo> Tue Dec 11 00:07:08 UTC 2012
00:07:19 <HackEgo> locale: Cannot set LC_CTYPE to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory \ locale: Cannot set LC_ALL to default locale: No such file or directory \ LANG=fi.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="fi.UTF-8" \ LC_MO
00:07:50 <Gregor> Not sure why that didn't work.
00:08:12 <HackEgo> ti 11.12.2012 00.08.12 +0000
00:08:24 <Gregor> Now the vast majority of the channel should be happy.
00:08:29 <Gregor> `run echo fail > /fail
00:08:41 <oerjan> tuesday starts with "ti" in finnish?
00:09:11 <oerjan> SOMEONE DID A LAZY BORROWING
00:09:17 <fizzie> Maanantai, tiistai, keskiviikko, torstai, perjantai, lauantai, sunnuntai.
00:09:38 <fizzie> (Wed is literally "middleweek".)
00:10:12 <pikhq> oerjan: Praise be to Tyr's Day!
00:10:57 <pikhq> Though personally I'm quite looking forward to Odin's Day.
00:11:02 <hagb4rd> the only word i know in finnish
00:11:37 <hagb4rd> hope it was right this time
00:11:50 <oerjan> google did not complain
00:11:57 <FireFly> I like Freyja's day personally
00:11:57 <HackEgo> ls: tiedostoa q ei voi käsitellä: Tiedostoa tai hakemistoa ei ole
00:12:22 <pikhq> FireFly: It is a good day.
00:12:39 <hagb4rd> fizzie: how to ask a girl for a 'date'
00:12:59 <FireFly> Huh, it seems that's not the actual etymology of friday
00:13:08 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure I've been taught that it is at one point
00:13:45 <pikhq> It's actually Frigg.
00:14:23 -!- micahjoh1ston has changed nick to micahjohnston.
00:14:38 <FireFly> Apparently some argue that Frigg and Freyja might be the same goddess
00:18:07 <hagb4rd> according to a german source frigg was the wife of odin.. not the same as freyja.. though both are associated with marriage
00:19:11 <kmc> fizzie: how does the combined SE/NO/DK text work?
00:20:10 <oerjan> half-heartedly, usually
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00:25:30 <kmc> no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
00:26:00 <Gregor> `addquote <kmc> no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
00:26:04 <HackEgo> 864) <kmc> no christmas without christ, no thursday without thor
00:26:05 <kmc> by vectron's beard!
00:26:10 <oerjan> Hej/Hei och/og välkommen/velkommen till/til den/det internationella/internasjonale/internationale knutpunkten/knutepunktet/knudepunkt för/for design och/og distribution/distribusjon av esoteriska/esoteriske programspråk/programmeringsspråk/programmeringssprog! För/for mer information/informasjon, se vår/vores wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För/for den andra/andre/anden sortens/typen/sort esoterism/esoterisme, pröva/prøv #esoteric
00:26:36 <oerjan> (danish may contain errors)
00:27:23 <kmc> most of those triplets are so close, why bother?
00:27:40 <oerjan> precisely! sometimes they don't.
00:27:40 <Gregor> They're all just English with a funny accent, why bother?
00:27:55 <kmc> it seems like reading NO if you know SE should be no harder than reading EN youtube comments if you know non-idiot EN
00:27:59 <hagb4rd> kmc: mostly because they are so close ;)
00:28:19 <kmc> they should just take the coolest looking word from each triplet
00:28:31 <kmc> are there any amusing false cognates between these languages?
00:28:34 <shachaf> kmc: You're just not watching the right videos.
00:28:49 <fizzie> Sometimes it seems they bother with och/og but not when it comes to long words.
00:29:39 <oerjan> kmc: no:pule = en:fuck, sv:pula = en: er, does anyone know a word for that...
00:29:53 <fizzie> "Dit hår er skadet og slidt/slitt/slitet", starts this "DK/N/S" shampoo bottle.
00:30:20 <oerjan> fizzie: "Dit" is wrong for norwegian :P
00:30:31 <oerjan> "og" is wrong for swedish.
00:30:51 <oerjan> "er" also wrong for swedish, i think
00:30:55 <fizzie> "Det har mistet/förlorat sit naturlige cement, som giver/ger håret styrke og smidighed."
00:31:04 <fizzie> Yes, it's all kind of lazy.
00:31:40 <fizzie> "Hårets overflade/yta bliver glat/slät og glansfuld."
00:32:29 <kmc> they should print one language in red and the other in blue and then everyone in school gets a bit of cellophane of the appropriate color
00:32:41 <fizzie> "Fordel shampooen i fugtigt hår, massér/massera, og skyl ud/skölj ur."
00:32:52 <oerjan> kmc: also NO and DK are closer to read than SE, usually. while DK is far away in pronunciation...
00:33:28 <FireFly> kmc: reading NO is probably easier tahn reading three languages intertwined
00:33:43 <kmc> interesting
00:33:48 <hagb4rd> isn't it symptomatic for similar cultures (neighbours devided by some historical reasons for example) that they often look for its own identity by cultivating these small differences? dunno, but these phenomena are found not only on national but almost every level ..
00:34:20 <kmc> also isn't norwegian actually two languages
00:34:46 <oerjan> hagb4rd: see: serbian, bosnian and croation, which afaiu are even closer than the scandinavian languages
00:34:54 <hagb4rd> regions, districts,..yes.. even lovers shit
00:34:55 <FireFly> I think there's two written forms but only one spoken?
00:35:18 <kmc> "Serbo-Croatian is the only European language with active digraphia, using both Cyrillic and Latin alphabets. The Bosnian and Serbian varieties use both alphabets while the Croatian variety uses only the Latin alphabet"
00:35:22 <oerjan> kmc: no one bothers with including nynorsk in these multiple translations :P
00:35:41 <FireFly> Nynorsk is the one that's closer to old norse, right?
00:35:58 <oerjan> slightly closer, perhaps.
00:36:16 <kmc> http://www.e-allmoney.com/coins/eur/img/1bos2YAcnbra00.gif
00:37:12 <kmc> 2 convertible mark coin
00:38:28 <oerjan> Hei og velkomne til det internasjonale knutepunktet for design og distribusjon av esoteriske programmeringsspråk! For meir informasjon, sjå wikien vår: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For den andre sorten esoterisme, prøv #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
00:38:58 <kmc> bosna i hercegovina / босна и херцеговина
00:39:34 <oerjan> (you may now play "spot the difference")
00:40:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: Keskustelu käyttäen Itä-Euroopan kieliä. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
00:40:31 <oerjan> (mind you there _could_ be errors, nynorsk isn't my main writing form)
00:41:08 <FireFly> Okay, I couldn't tell it from bokmål I think :p
00:41:20 <oerjan> if it were, i would probably use a bit other words for flavor
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00:47:14 <oerjan> <FireFly> I think there's two written forms but only one spoken? <-- the spoken situation is far more complicated, as dialects are generally _more_ prestigious than a pronunciation normalized to either writing form. afaict, even the television presenters no longer always normalize.
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00:47:59 <oerjan> and there's not really an "official" pronunciation, iirc
00:48:50 <oerjan> the nynorsk movement had this slogan "Speak dialect, write nynorsk" of which the norwegian people took only the first part :P
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00:50:46 <lambdabot> (IM.Key -> a -> b) -> IM.IntMap a -> IM.IntMap b
00:51:37 <kmc> that's interesting
00:51:43 <kmc> some languages take that to an extreme
00:51:54 <kmc> like chinese and arabic
00:52:06 <kmc> (if chinese even counts as one language)
00:52:29 <Bike> arabic doesn't count as one language either, i don't think
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00:53:12 <oerjan> there is "modern standard arabic", which is probably not the local language anywhere?
00:54:15 <hagb4rd> kmc: in china there was basically mandarin and.. i forgot the second one
00:54:19 <kmc> my understanding is that in both cases, there is a mutually intelligible sub-language which people can use but is not the default anywhere
00:54:26 <kmc> in chinese it's only a written language and not spoken
00:54:26 <Bike> there's cantonese and wu and a few others
00:54:29 <Bike> and yeah, there's a word for it
00:54:32 <kmc> "Shoppers at a furniture store in Toronto, Canada, were shocked to find a monkey dressed in a sheepskin jacket on the loose in the car park."
00:54:39 <Bike> tht pattern, i mean
00:54:59 <kmc> dunno if you all saw http://idlewords.com/2011/08/why_arabic_is_terrific.htm
00:55:00 <Bike> oh, 'diglossia'
00:55:09 <Bike> which also mentions norwegian, gosh.
00:56:04 <kmc> oh dear, the arabic on that page no longer renders correctly for me :(
00:57:08 <kmc> looks like double UTF8 encoding :( :( :(
00:57:37 <Gregor> DOUBLE UTF-8 ALL ACROSS THE SKYYYY
00:57:59 <kmc> whenever you screw up character encodings, god kills a japanese kitten
00:59:06 <HackEgo> LANG=fi_FI.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="fi_FI
01:00:27 <kmc> must report bug
01:02:05 <elliott> kmc: Gregor is killing kittens right now then
01:18:24 <ion> LC_MESSAGES=fi_FI.UTF-8 is great. “Esiräätälöidään paketteja”
01:18:30 -!- TodPunk has quit (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.).
01:19:01 <ion> Too bad some of the people won’t understand just how horrible that translation of “preconfiguring packages” is.
01:19:20 <ion> Finnish translations of UIs tend to be abhorrent.
01:19:30 <kmc> how can it be horrible when it contains five ä's?
01:19:51 <kmc> what would you say the meaning of that phrase is in english?
01:20:07 <hagb4rd> it's almost impossible to unify the layout isn't it?
01:20:52 <hagb4rd> experienced the same problem while trying to create unified reports for 16 languages
01:20:59 <ion> “Pretailoring packages” would be the direct translation, but that loses the badness of the phrase in Finnish again.
01:26:10 <kmc> codepage 1252 strikes again!
01:26:10 <hagb4rd> i still wonder how finnish could develop in such a uniqe way.. are they any natural borders to the neighbours? oceans? mountains? trolls?
01:27:03 <hagb4rd> there must be a simpler explanation
01:27:35 <kmc> echo مكتبة | iconv -f cp1252
01:27:36 <hagb4rd> must admit i do not know much about the finnish history
01:28:00 <kmc> it is kind of related to hungarian and estonian right
01:28:06 <kmc> hungarian is crazier though
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01:28:36 <kmc> maybe it's just seeing it next to swedish everywhere, but finnish seems to be closer to its neighbors
01:29:22 <kmc> in my unscientific opinion yes
01:30:06 <kmc> swedish is a germanic language, so not entirely alien to me as an english speaker
01:30:16 <kmc> and the finnish words on signs seemed to be reasonably close to the swedish words much of the time
01:30:30 <kmc> whereas in hungary it seemed as though somebody has written total gibberish on everything
01:30:52 <ion> I think Hungarian and Finnish have split a very long time ago, there’s nothing recognizable in the other to a novice that knows one of them. OTOH, Estonian sounds very similar to Finnish (although you generally can’t understand the words).
01:32:11 <hagb4rd> yes, studying the history would be a good point to start i guess
01:32:34 * Gregor wipes the blood from his hands.
01:32:41 <Gregor> Now that I'm done killing kittens, let's fix this shit.
01:33:00 <HackEgo> LANG=fi_FI.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="fi_FI.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="fi_FI
01:33:04 <elliott> Gregor: YO A REASONABLE LOCALE PLZ
01:33:39 <Gregor> elliott: I chose a locale appropriate to the majority of the channel, what's the issue?
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01:34:30 <HackEgo> ti 11.12.2012 01.34.29 +0000
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01:35:33 <HackEgo> ti 11. joulukuuta 2012 01.35.33
01:36:57 <HackEgo> ＥＬＬＩＯＴＴ： ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡ
01:38:44 <HackEgo> Tue Dec 11 01:38:44 UTC 2012
01:38:48 <Gregor> JUST to make you stop complaining.
01:39:25 <elliott> Gregor: I'm not going to stop complaining
01:42:07 <elliott> Gregor: should I optimise UMLBox
01:42:24 <elliott> "If a user accomplishes a root escalation from within a UMLBox jail, they escalate only to the privileges of the user who ran umlbox, not true root."
01:42:32 <elliott> I like the idea that this would stop someone who *already has a root escalation exploit*
01:42:39 <elliott> (OK, you could have setuid programs inside the jail)
01:42:47 <Gregor> Yeah, it depends on how the exploit is done.
01:43:01 <Gregor> If they're different versions of Linux, or depend on being able to modify something they can't on the host, or...
01:43:17 <Gregor> There's lots of reasons why an exploit might not work.
01:43:27 <elliott> Gregor: How fast is the mudem stuff
01:43:44 <Gregor> Slow but irrelevant, HackEgo isn't using it.
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01:44:41 <Gregor> It was a "feature" of plash I felt obligated to replicate.
01:44:46 <Gregor> Never really succeeded though.
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01:45:13 <elliott> I forget what it's even for
01:45:26 <Gregor> And TCP forwarding if you'd like.
01:45:57 <Gregor> It did last time I tested it *shrugs*
01:47:26 <elliott> Gregor: hey couldn't you profile this stuff using the oprofile stuff
01:47:32 -!- ion has set topic: Keskustelu käyttäen Itä-Euroopan kieliä. | Kanavan otsikko mainitsee Hitlerin ilman erityistä syytä. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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01:48:57 <Gregor> I know that google perftools just barfs all over the place :)
01:50:45 <elliott> well oprofile is fancy and kernel-level
01:50:49 <elliott> I don't know how it works though
01:50:59 <elliott> what if you reduced the nice to something less than -n10, would that help at all
01:51:02 <elliott> I guess it would be sort of bad
01:52:03 <Gregor> It's not like I have other shit running at some other nice level.
01:53:57 <Gregor> hg status is almost instantaneous.
01:54:03 <Gregor> umlbox takes almost a second.
01:54:26 <elliott> I think UMLBox is pretty inherently slow
01:54:44 <elliott> Gregor: What if you did a trick to keep the same UMLBox running as long as hg status says nothing has changed?
01:54:48 <elliott> should be semantically equivalent
01:55:12 <Gregor> It's a nice theory, but the whole stack is just SO not configured to do that >_>
01:55:29 <elliott> UMLBox forwards stdin, right?
01:56:11 <Gregor> 'course then there's an issue of "how much of this output is my output"
01:56:12 <elliott> So you just need to run while read; do timelimit ...; done
01:56:31 <elliott> Gregor: have it forward an extra fd that you just echo "done" to or such
01:56:49 <Gregor> I send a command, it has no output. How do I know when it's done?
01:57:01 <Gregor> I send a command, it has 30MB of output. How do I know when it's done?
01:57:28 <elliott> Right, you need to echo "done" to another channel... in fact you can just use stderr, assuming UMLBox forwards that separately
01:57:32 <elliott> (and 2>&1 the commands themselves)
01:57:39 <Gregor> Echoing to another channel is a terrible idea.
01:57:44 <Gregor> Synchronicity problems.
01:58:04 <elliott> Gregor: OK: buffer the output inside the loop, once all the output is written, write the length of the output to the additional channel.
01:58:18 <elliott> The reading code sends the stuff to run, reads a length from the side-channel, reads those bytes.
01:58:52 <elliott> Whenever a write happens, you kill the whole thing and run stuff separately
01:59:37 <elliott> (Note that this means that if you run two writers and a reader at once, the reader may experience inconsistent state (because the two overwriters overwrite each other))
01:59:56 <elliott> (You'd have to make sure the reader's output isn't sent before rerunning stuff, but that's just basic transactionality anyway)
02:00:04 <elliott> Sounds easier than rearchitecturing anything at least
02:00:14 <Gregor> It is rearchitecting X-D
02:00:29 <elliott> Probably less so than whatever you were thinking of :P
02:00:33 <elliott> It'd be super-mega-fast, anyway
02:00:40 <kmc> bug reported
02:01:54 <kmc> bad character encoding on http://idlewords.com/2011/08/why_arabic_is_terrific.htm
02:02:20 <kmc> take UTF-8 and interpret each byte as a character in Windows-1252 and then encode to UTF-8 again and that's what you get
02:02:31 <Gregor> I also think that rerunning commands is probably a waste of time more often than not. I could send the original output eagerly, then resend iff it's different.
02:02:48 <pikhq> kmc: How do you fuck up like that?
02:02:57 <Gregor> That waiting for output from rerunning is a waste of time.
02:03:04 <elliott> That would be completely awful
02:03:04 <Gregor> Lemme put it differently: I should output before even checking.
02:03:27 <elliott> How about go for the 90% speed increase you get from not rerunning UMLBox and forget about an abomination like that :P
02:03:53 <elliott> Maybe I'll write it to not rerun UMLBox if I can get HackEgo working here
02:04:10 <Gregor> elliott: At this point it should be near-trivial to get HackEgo running...
02:04:18 <elliott> I think that is what you said last time too
02:04:48 <Gregor> Build multibot, install socat, edit runner.sh to your needs, ./runner.sh
02:05:39 <elliott> You forgot at least one step
02:05:41 <Gregor> pikhq: ¡!¡!¡!¡!¡! THERE ARE BACKLOG IN PLOF CHANNEL GO GO GO ¡!¡!¡!¡!¡!
02:06:05 <Gregor> elliott: What's going wrong?
02:06:07 <elliott> Is it just me or did glogbot's channel list shrink
02:06:18 <shachaf> elliott: did you finish your "script"
02:06:19 <Gregor> elliott: I assume you already have umlbox?
02:06:22 <elliott> Gregor: I didn't try, just you forgot "Get UMLBox working" for one
02:07:11 <Gregor> Getting UMLBox working: Check out, extract Linux to a subdir, if your Linux version is different then the one in Makefile then change it or provide it as a make argument, make and make install.
02:07:15 <pikhq> Gregor: yaru nn sìȳa 'te! tèmo, kotae musùkasii no.
02:07:49 <elliott> Gregor: You should have some script to automate checking out and compiling everything :P
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02:08:12 <kmc> pikhq: probably by opening it in an editor which is configured to auto-detect encoding but save as utf-8
02:08:16 <kmc> and which auto detects wrongly
02:08:17 <Gregor> elliott: HackBot isn't really designed to be rerun ;)
02:08:22 <kmc> i don't really know
02:08:29 <kmc> i think of this as something that happens on windows ;P
02:08:29 <elliott> Gregor: "At this point it should be near-trivial to get HackEgo running..." :P
02:08:36 <pikhq> kmc: Implementing auto-detect like that takes some real doing.
02:08:42 <shachaf> kmc: I've seen that post before with its encoding not messed up.
02:08:44 <Gregor> Oh come on, it has THREE dependencies.
02:08:49 <kmc> shachaf: yes, me too
02:08:54 <Gregor> And all three of them are listed in its description!
02:08:58 <pikhq> Given that the easy way to detect UTF-8 is to check if it's valid UTF-8.
02:09:02 <elliott> Gregor: Also you forgot the part where I replicate HackEgo's filesystem to have test scripts.
02:09:06 <pikhq> If it's valid, it is UTF-8.
02:09:06 <kmc> i think he probably made a minor edit and screwed it up accidentally
02:09:10 <kmc> or moved to a new blog system or something
02:09:17 <shachaf> Also a lot of those things are true of Hebrew.
02:09:23 <Gregor> elliott: Do you need it?
02:09:28 <Gregor> elliott: Even "echo hi" should be sufficient.
02:09:35 <kmc> shachaf: not surprising
02:09:38 <elliott> Gregor: No, because I need to test behaviour with writes and stuff and the quote system makes that e-z
02:09:46 <kmc> arabic alphabet is cooler though
02:09:54 <pikhq> shachaf: Given that the two languages are in the same language family, makes a lot of sense.
02:09:54 <Gregor> <pikhq> If it's valid, it is UTF-8. // Technically, there is some insanely small possibility that this is false.
02:10:08 <pikhq> Gregor: Yeah, but that's the proper heuristic.
02:10:49 <shachaf> kmc: Sure, but you might as well write Farsi instead.
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02:10:59 <kmc> MAYBE I WILL
02:11:07 <kmc> maybe i'll write english in arabic script
02:11:22 <pikhq> Gregor: And if you somehow find a long string in the wild that's valid UTF-8 *and* not meant to be, I'll buy you a hat or something. :P
02:11:34 <shachaf> There's always https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiao'erjing
02:12:04 <pikhq> Well, if I can write English in kanji and a self-made script, I suppose you can do English in Arabic.
02:12:22 <elliott> Gregor: I like this irritating fucking "click the repo URL to copy it" thing that DOESN'T LET ME MIDDLE-CLICK-PASTE THE RESULT
02:12:50 <elliott> On https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/overview
02:13:07 <kmc> there are some places in western china where you can see latin, arabic, cyrillic, han, and mongolian characters on signs
02:13:11 <kmc> also some places in new york city
02:13:13 <Gregor> That's... not an auto-copy thing?
02:13:31 <elliott> Try clicking it (make sure you have JS on I guess)
02:13:41 <Gregor> Of course I have JS on X-D
02:13:50 <elliott> It is definitely something weird
02:14:00 <Gregor> So's your face *shrugs*
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02:15:48 <Gregor> glogbackup: YOU'RE DRUNK, GO HOME
02:16:04 <elliott> Gregor: Where do I put multibot
02:16:23 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /ubda: No such file or directory
02:16:41 <elliott> Gregor: Do I wipe its multibot_cmds?
02:16:43 <shachaf> kmc: I heard a rumor you were a fan of acid-state.
02:16:57 <Gregor> elliott: Just take the binary.
02:17:29 <elliott> I like how there's no Makefile.
02:17:42 <Gregor> Makefiles are for pussies.
02:17:49 <Gregor> gcc -O3 -levent multibot.c -o multibot
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02:19:10 <elliott> Does it really need libevent and yet still uses socat for networking
02:19:23 <elliott> I can't possibly articulate how much this code disgusts me
02:19:24 <Gregor> libevent... is not a networking library?
02:19:54 <Gregor> It uses socat to avoid all the buildup/teardown bullshit of BSD sockets, so it's just stdin/stdout. Otherwise it's equivalent.
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02:20:54 <elliott> Nice, I have a newer kernel than umlbox
02:21:23 <elliott> Does this mean I have to download my own
02:25:02 <Gregor> Uhh, it has to build a UML kernel, yes...
02:25:08 <Gregor> Well, or if your distro has one, you can use that.
02:25:21 <HackEgo> 543) <monqy> in the past few minutes I tried remembering what my dream last night was, but instead remembered I didn't sleep
02:25:30 <HackEgo> 288) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
02:25:30 <HackEgo> 70) <fedoragirl> My mascot is a tree of broccoli.
02:25:31 <HackEgo> 85) <vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone
02:25:31 <HackEgo> 44) <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
02:26:33 <elliott> Gregor: Well you said something about tweaking the version numbers
02:26:37 <monqy> shachaf....etiqute
02:27:12 <Gregor> elliott: You don't need to use the version specified by the Makefile, you can use whatever version you please
02:27:18 <HackEgo> 582) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
02:27:18 <HackEgo> 616) <Ngevd> Somehow I managed to read Haskell as Befunge
02:27:19 <HackEgo> 58) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
02:27:23 <Gregor> elliott: But you do have to actually fetch the source, since, y'know, you're building it.
02:27:29 <shachaf> Is that a mosh bug or what?
02:28:26 <elliott> Gregor: Well I just meant you said "if your Linux version is different then the one in Makefile then change it or provide it as a make argument
02:28:36 <elliott> so I do need the versions to match?
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02:28:43 <elliott> if not I'm totally happy with whatever it uses my default
02:29:41 <Gregor> elliott: One way or another you have to download a Linux kernel and extract it.
02:29:46 <Gregor> It doesn't do it itself because I'm lazy.
02:29:48 <elliott> doesn't the makefile do that automatically
02:29:51 <elliott> I recall that being a thing
02:30:14 <Gregor> Would you like me to make that a thing X_X
02:30:25 <elliott> ok if the versions have to match
02:30:28 <elliott> what if my kernel is patched
02:30:30 <elliott> does it need the same patches.........
02:30:39 <Gregor> The version does not have to match anything.
02:30:46 <Gregor> Just use a clean Linux.
02:31:05 <Gregor> The only version matching there is is that the Makefile has a variable to know what directory to descend into.
02:33:42 <kmc> what's a mosh bug?
02:34:08 <shachaf> Those [As came from pressing up-arrow-enter quickly.
02:34:46 <kmc> oh there's a known interaction with irssi paste detection
02:35:03 <kmc> if you send irssi a bunch of control codes at once, it assumes they are pasted and sends them to the channel as is
02:35:41 <Fiora> ohhh. is that why it does that when there's a big internet lag after I press backspace a lot?
02:35:44 <shachaf> I guess that's the reason I can only get tabs into the irssi buffer by pasting.
02:36:00 <Fiora> so it ends up packet-lossing a lot, so it sends all of them at once, and instead of backspacing I get a bunch of control codes
02:36:18 <Fiora> I've noticed that when being on horridly lossy networks and not using local-edit mode
02:37:17 <elliott> are you saying there is actually a way to get reasonable local line editing with modern networking stuff
02:37:28 <Fiora> um, putty has a local edit mode
02:37:33 <Fiora> it basicaly just sends a command when you hit enter
02:37:46 <elliott> does it actually do proper line editing
02:37:49 <kmc> mosh does local line editing
02:37:51 <Fiora> it's not that great and it kinda gets icky when you have a line longer than 80 chars
02:37:54 <kmc> that's one of the main features over ssh
02:37:56 <Fiora> but it's workable I guess
02:38:03 <Fiora> yeah, I'd guess mosh is a lot better >_<
02:38:07 <shachaf> but does mosh have a locale edit mode
02:38:07 <Fiora> especially at interacting with irssi and things
02:38:24 <kmc> mosh does get feedback from the server
02:38:41 <kmc> that is, it can distinguish "nothing was echoed within 50 ms" from "your network connection dropped for 50 ms"
02:38:48 <elliott> kmc: well mosh's local line editing is kind of bad
02:38:50 <kmc> a packet is sent for the former
02:38:52 <elliott> as in I wouldn't want to use it exclusively
02:39:10 <shachaf> kmc: You know the thing where mosh jumps from "last contact: 13 seconds" to "last response: 50 seconds" or something like that?
02:39:14 <shachaf> Or maybe the other way around.
02:39:14 <elliott> Gregor: oh come on, Linux doesn't compile
02:39:32 <Fiora> I guess quassel might work even better at this just for irc
02:39:48 <kmc> i guess from Fiora's description of PuTTY's thing, it probably does not work in, say, vim
02:40:11 <kmc> where you want line editing and then you hit Esc and now you want immediate feedback of your keystrokes
02:40:37 <Fiora> I think it basically just doesn't send your chars until you hit enter, then it sends them all. but maybe it works with things other than enter too
02:40:54 <kmc> mosh always sends them right away, but predicts a local echo in some situations
02:41:02 <kmc> and also predicts the effects of left-arrow and right arrow and backspace
02:41:10 <Fiora> I really don't know much about it
02:41:31 <elliott> kmc: mosh should predict ctrl+<dir> too
02:42:15 <kmc> move by word in irssi
02:42:17 <kmc> apparently
02:42:32 <kmc> don't know what tab would do other than complete nicks >_<
02:42:45 <kmc> people have asked for ^U
02:42:49 <shachaf> kmc: Tab does lots of other things!
02:42:57 <Fiora> ... oh cool! I didn't know about ctrl-w
02:43:12 <shachaf> Complete channels, complete arguments to commands...
02:43:16 <elliott> I keep using Ctrl+W in non-terminal programs and it closes my windows.
02:43:23 <ion> elliott: ditto
02:43:27 <elliott> kmc: tab should complete nicks, yes.
02:43:49 <Fiora> wow, ctrl-w closes tabs in chrome too
02:44:00 <shachaf> Why is the topic in Finnish?
02:44:36 <elliott> Fiora: did you seriously not know that
02:44:43 <elliott> how have you been closing tabs.....
02:44:52 <Fiora> I'm not very good with keyboard shortcuts
02:45:00 -!- shachaf has set topic: hi | http://соdu.оrg/lоgs/_еsоtеriс/.
02:45:02 <elliott> another tip: middle-clicking anywhere on a tab closes it too
02:45:14 <Fiora> anywhere in the window, or on the tab itself?
02:45:21 <Fiora> ah, yeah, I know that one
02:45:32 <elliott> third tip: middle-clicking links opens them in a new tab??? :P
02:45:33 <shachaf> Also you can find out keyboard shortcuts in Chrome by clicking.
02:45:38 <Fiora> I know that one XDD
02:45:49 <ion> another tip: middle-clicking elliott turns it into a shachaf
02:45:51 <shachaf> I right click links to open them in a new tab.
02:46:01 <elliott> "helpful chrome tip click links to open them"
02:46:10 <shachaf> Double right click opens a link in a new tab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
02:46:33 <ion> I open links to a new tab by middle-clicking if i’m using the mouse.
02:46:43 <shachaf> kmc: Remember the time when middle clicking on a page in Firefox/Mozilla would go to the URL in PRIMARY?
02:46:51 <shachaf> I don't have a middle button!
02:47:01 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:47:05 <shachaf> I have a left button and a right button and sometimes I press them together.
02:47:07 <elliott> please stop violating freenode guidelines by messing up the log url thx
02:47:09 <Fiora> random annoying thing: URLs that use javascript to open a new window, so when I middle-click them, it opens an empty tab
02:47:13 <ion> shachaf: A.k.a. the middle button
02:47:28 <shachaf> ion: Except a crumb or something got into my left button so now it's awkward to press.
02:47:30 <elliott> Fiora: sometimes those even open said link in the tab you middle-clicked from
02:48:09 <shachaf> "If you're publishing logs on an ongoing basis, your channel topic should reflect that fact."
02:48:24 <kmc> shachaf: yes!
02:48:50 <elliott> my gcc can't compile the kernel
02:48:58 <kmc> shachaf: when that happens you need to just pound that key repeatedly until the crumb turns into dust
02:48:59 <Gregor> elliott: What's going on?
02:49:02 <kmc> lifehacker pro tip ^^^^
02:49:05 <Gregor> elliott: What distro are you distriing?
02:49:18 <elliott> CC arch/um/os-Linux/signal.o
02:49:18 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/signal.c:18:8: error: conflicting types for ‘sig_info’
02:49:18 <elliott> In file included from arch/um/os-Linux/signal.c:12:0:
02:49:18 <elliott> /home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/linux-3.6.10/arch/um/include/shared/as-layout.h:64:15: note: previous declaration of ‘sig_info’ was here
02:49:19 <Gregor> Does it have a UML package?
02:49:21 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/signal.c:19:2: warning: initialization from incompatible pointer type [enabled by default]
02:49:22 <shachaf> kmc: I think it's sticky or something.
02:49:28 <shachaf> kmc: It only happens occasionally now.
02:49:34 <Gregor> What version of Linux?
02:49:34 <shachaf> It might have something to do with temperature, I don't know.
02:49:40 <elliott> Gregor: lemme check, google turns up https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/10/23/731 though
02:49:41 <shachaf> I'm more concerned with my lack of → and End keys!
02:49:46 <ion> fiora: Browsers suck at that. All clicks should run the click event, the default one or not, and any resulting page loads should happen in the present tab or a new one based on which button was used originally.
02:49:52 <elliott> Gregor: happens with building both 3.6.6 and 3.6.10
02:50:02 <elliott> community/uml_utilities 20070815-5 User Mode Linux Utilities
02:50:07 <elliott> but that's it as far as "uml" goes
02:50:13 <Gregor> Well then you're fucked 8-D
02:50:36 <elliott> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.uml.devel/13702 too
02:50:46 <elliott> Gregor: you said this would be trivial :(
02:50:55 <Gregor> elliott: It's supposed to be!
02:50:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: /ciretose_/sgol/gro.udoc//:ptth.
02:50:59 <Gregor> But building UML ain't my job.
02:51:04 <Fiora> ion: is that something that's defined by the html specs and stuff so the browser has no choice?
02:51:18 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:51:43 -!- Gregor has set topic: I ate too much, I'm feeling all *urp* ciretose | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:51:54 <elliott> Gregor: There's a linux-usermode AUR package apparently, maybe that works
02:52:28 <elliott> Gregor: You should give me an SSH account on codu or something :P
02:52:33 <oerjan> i just noticed the guidelines said "reflect that fact"
02:52:48 <kmc> mosh should be renamed to sssh
02:52:51 <kmc> super secure shell
02:52:55 <kmc> that would cast aside all doubts right
02:53:06 <ion> /ɔᴉɹǝʇosǝ‾/sᵷol/ᵷɹo˙npoɔ//:dʇʇɥ
02:53:37 <elliott> Gregor: Are you suggesting I am not the most trustworthy person ever
02:53:39 <ion> kmc: “Enterprise SSH”
02:53:42 -!- shachaf has set topic: this channel is logged. don't say anything incriminating..
02:53:50 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:53:59 -!- kmc has set topic: y'all tryin' to criminate me! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
02:54:08 <Gregor> I am suggesting that it is really, truly not that difficult to get hackbot working.
02:54:19 <elliott> Gregor: Well, I can't install UML.
02:54:22 <elliott> So it's literally impossible.
02:58:36 <kmc> shachaf: http://static.flickr.com/79/221038665_de70857eb3.jpg
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03:00:28 <quintopia> when did gregor start saying dahell all the time
03:00:42 <HackEgo> WeThePeople: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:00:44 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.coolstuffexpress.com/store/i/is.aspx?path=/Shared/IMAGES/DCI/pizza_tasty_key_topper.jpg&lr=t&bw=600&w=600&bh=600&h=600
03:01:06 <pikhq> quintopia: Well, Gregor is awesomelord
03:01:39 <pikhq> I'm parsing that as "I hate in a Gregorian fashion".
03:02:10 <pikhq> Which doesn't help to me then interpret the sentence, but it is funny.
03:02:30 <pikhq> What's false about it?
03:03:20 <elliott> WeThePeople: i think you are in the wrong channel
03:03:31 <pikhq> I fail to see how it is *based on* Catholicism, nor how that would make it inherently false.
03:03:59 <shachaf> kmc: Oh, this was an actual thing?
03:04:01 <elliott> WeThePeople: are you sure you read the welcome message
03:04:04 <quintopia> however "gregor is weird or gregorian calendar is true" is definitely true
03:04:18 <kmc> shachaf: yeha it's the iOpener keyboard
03:04:58 <pikhq> (indeed, it's actually a slight modification of the Julian calendar, which was itself a modification of the traditional Roman calendar. Its origins waaay predate Catholicism, and indeed predates the claimed birth of Jesus.)
03:05:08 <kmc> google maps shows a 1.3km wide shaded stripe stretching from monterey bay down to the salton sea
03:05:16 <shachaf> I don't know anything about the i-opener.
03:05:53 <pikhq> WeThePeople: The only difference between the Gregorian calendar and the Julian is the leap year rule. And the Julian calendar predates Christianity. So...
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03:07:24 <kmc> obviously google is planning to dig a huge and pointless canal
03:07:24 <elliott> good to know WeThePeople made sure they were as uninformed as possible about the gregorian calendar before starting to hate it
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03:10:00 <lambdabot> gwern says: there are no beginnings or ends to the circular list; but a cons cell thunked in Amador...
03:11:09 <kmc> i should warn the mayor of san bernardino
03:11:33 <quintopia> isnt that where mcdonalds was born
03:12:28 <kmc> apparentlyp
03:12:44 <shachaf> kmc is turning into common lisp
03:13:00 <kmc> maybe i'm turning into yp
03:14:14 <elliott> Gregor: seriously how is it meant to be easy to get hackbot working if I cannot get uml working
03:14:41 <shachaf> elliott: Just don't use a sandbox.
03:15:18 <elliott> shachaf: that will help a ton considering I am trying to speed up the umlbox part
03:18:52 <kmc> maybe it is the san andreas fault
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03:22:22 <elliott> san andreas / the san andreas fault line
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03:31:06 <Gregor> elliott: Dude, building UML is fucking MAKE.
03:31:15 <Gregor> If it doesn't build for you, something about your setup is terrible.
03:31:18 <Gregor> And you should feel bad.
03:31:37 <elliott> Gregor: did you completely ignore the part where I linked you to a thread where other people have had this problem and it's something that got fixed in the kernel itself or something
03:32:08 <Gregor> Dude, if it was fixed in the kernel, THEN USE THE RIGHT VERSION OF THE FUCKING KERNEL
03:32:38 <elliott> Gregor: did you miss the part where I used the kernel version you use, the latest stable kernel, and the latest rc
03:33:17 <Gregor> Wait, you mean the kernel I boot to, or the kernel I'm using in UMLBox?
03:33:26 <Gregor> The kernel I'm using in UMLBox is the one in the Makefile.
03:33:36 <Gregor> The kernel I boot to is 3.1 (unupdated wifi driver >: ( )
03:33:56 <Gregor> But that's only on this system... I've used quite newer versions. And hell, the kernel you're booting doesn't affect building software anyway.
03:34:29 <elliott> Anyway I guess I could try git linux? That will take five years to download though.
03:34:45 <Gregor> elliott: The Makefile in umlbox specifies the last version I explicitly tested against.
03:35:16 <Gregor> Which appears to be 3.6.6.
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03:35:34 <elliott> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1351400 apparently this is the patch that fixes it or something
03:35:51 <Gregor> I'm not going to add something to umlbox when it WORKS — FOR — ME.
03:36:18 <elliott> well apparently this patch is actually in the rc I tried...
03:36:26 <elliott> (when did I tell you to add anything to umlbox??)
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03:37:10 <Gregor> I have /no idea/ what you're telling me to do.
03:37:16 <Gregor> It builds for me, and I've never had any problem.
03:37:20 <Gregor> So how am I supposed to help you.
03:38:23 <elliott> oh apparently that is the commit that broke things
03:38:55 <Gregor> You could try whatever absurdly ancient version HackEgo is still on.
03:38:58 <HackEgo> Linux version 3.0.8-umlbox (root@codu.org) (gcc version 4.4.5 (Debian 4.4.5-8) ) #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011
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03:39:35 <elliott> maybe i will find the linux version released before 31 august
03:40:01 <shachaf> linux was invented in september
03:41:21 <Gregor> Please tell me why it builds just fine for me X-D
03:45:26 <elliott> Gregor: what gcc version, and what kernel are you compiling
03:45:54 <HackEgo> gcc (Debian 4.4.5-8) 4.4.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
03:46:13 <Gregor> Locally, 4.7.2, evidently, but that's probably not the version I had when I most recently compiled umlbox.
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03:47:56 <elliott> how about you try building umlbox now :P
03:49:06 <elliott> wooooo, 3.0.42 fails in another manner
03:49:11 <elliott> CC arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.o
03:49:11 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c: In function ‘check_coredump_limit’:
03:49:11 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:340:16: error: storage size of ‘lim’ isn’t known
03:49:14 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:341:2: error: implicit declaration of function ‘getrlimit’ [-Werror=implicit-function-declaration]
03:49:17 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:341:22: error: ‘RLIMIT_CORE’ undeclared (first use in this function)
03:49:20 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:341:22: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in
03:49:23 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:349:22: error: ‘RLIM_INFINITY’ undeclared (first use in this function)
03:49:26 <elliott> arch/um/os-Linux/start_up.c:340:16: warning: unused variable ‘lim’ [-Wunused-variable]
03:49:38 <elliott> I wonder what that even means
03:51:27 <Gregor> Fine, I'll build umlbox now.
03:51:48 <Gregor> I'll bet it just works.
03:53:04 <Gregor> It'll take a while 'cuz I'm on a slow-arse laptop ;)
03:53:50 <shachaf> (Except when it actually uses it. Then it goes up a little bit.)
03:53:59 <Gregor> My speed scaling is broken, it's stuck at 800MHz.
03:56:54 <elliott> okay i patched the file that didn't build and added an #include
03:58:34 <elliott> so now you can give me an ssh account
03:58:38 <elliott> and I can use your built umlbox!
03:59:02 <Gregor> Seriously. SERIOUSLY. How are you having trouble building UML.
03:59:52 <pikhq> Maybe he uses musl.
04:00:10 <kmc> what's a pirate's favorite posix system call
04:00:12 <pikhq> (has anyone gotten UML and musl to work yet?)
04:00:24 <kmc> setarrrrrrrrrlimit(2)
04:06:20 <kmc> i see you are all rendered speechless by my shining wit
04:08:10 <elliott> Gregor: okay so i got this old kernel compiled by patching it
04:08:28 <Gregor> elliott: OK NEXT STEP INSTALL DAT SHIT
04:08:31 <elliott> Gregor: do I just run runner.sh
04:08:32 <Fiora> what do pirates use to create static libraries?
04:08:34 <elliott> no I'm just going to set PATH
04:09:05 <Gregor> elliott: So long as you have multibot next to runner and socat and umlbox in $PATH, yeah, just run runner.sh. ... after configuring it to have a sensible name and all that jazz.
04:13:42 -!- Gregor has set topic: DO NOT FUCKING CURSE IN THIS GOD DAMNED CHANNEL, CUNT | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:14:21 <elliott> abort: no username supplied (see "hg help config")
04:14:27 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:14:32 <elliott> why do i need a username.....
04:14:46 <Gregor> Mercurial needs a username to commit X-D
04:14:50 <Gregor> I should probably build it in...
04:14:56 -!- shachaf has set topic: ☭ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:15:04 <Gregor> (Instead of just using the .hgrc)
04:15:17 <Fiora> I remember git yells at me if I forget to specify it
04:15:24 <elliott> so I can not set things up
04:15:44 <Gregor> Just add "-u", "HackBot" after "hg", "commit", "-R", wutever
04:16:38 <Gregor> (I'll add that to the repo too)
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04:17:07 <elliott> Traceback (most recent call last):
04:17:08 <elliott> File "PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd", line 129, in <module>
04:17:08 <elliott> transact(command, 'lib/sandbox', command)
04:17:08 <elliott> File "PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd", line 73, in transact
04:17:08 <elliott> for sline in so.split("\n"):
04:17:10 <elliott> TypeError: Type str doesn't support the buffer API
04:17:12 <elliott> Gregor: it's trying to run it as python3
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04:18:17 <GregorSucks> nice: /usr/bin/umlbox: No such file or directory
04:18:24 <elliott> does it really hardcode the fuckin path
04:18:26 <Gregor> Why is lambdabot defending me.
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04:19:26 <shachaf> kmc: Are you going to be near SF this week?
04:19:53 <Gregor> Dude, my shitty dead-man's switch server is going crazy.
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04:20:07 <elliott> $ PATH=../umlbox:$PATH ./runner.sh
04:20:07 <elliott> [1]+ Killed PATH=../umlbox:$PATH ./runner.sh
04:20:22 <kmc> shachaf: no, why?
04:20:53 <Gregor> Ha-HA I remember having that problem it's FUN
04:21:39 <Gregor> See if lib/sandbox has any weird paths in it.
04:21:50 <Gregor> If uml dies, it seems to have a habit of taking down FUCKING EVERYTHING with it.
04:22:45 <elliott> it has '/home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/umlbox'
04:23:01 <elliott> can umlbox find the kernel
04:23:53 <elliott> do i have to make an actual /hackenv directory
04:25:34 <Gregor> See if you can run lib/sandbox directly. HACKENV=multibot_cmds/env multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox echo hi
04:25:49 <elliott> $ HACKENV=multibot_cmds/env multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox echo hi
04:26:33 <Gregor> Err wait, I forgot, you need to be in multibot_cmds X-D
04:26:40 <Gregor> cd multibot_cmds; HACKENV=env ./lib/sandbox echo hi
04:26:57 <elliott> $ HACKENV=env ./lib/sandbox echo hi
04:27:24 <Gregor> Yeah, that's a problem X-D
04:28:32 <elliott> maybe my uml linux is broken
04:28:56 <Gregor> Try umlbox -B -v echo hi, see if the kernel gives any hints as to where it's failing.
04:29:54 <elliott> No filesystem could mount root, tried:
04:29:54 <elliott> Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(98,0)
04:30:41 <Gregor> Dahell? How did you build the kernel?
04:31:29 <elliott> Plus adding a <sys/resources.h> include to one UML file that didn't have it.
04:31:48 <Gregor> As in, make in the umlbox root?
04:31:51 <Gregor> So it used the umlbox config?
04:33:07 -!- Arc_Koen has left.
04:33:43 <HackEgo> Linux version 3.0.8-umlbox (root@codu.org) (gcc version 4.4.5 (Debian 4.4.5-8) ) #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011
04:33:47 <Gregor> 3.0.42 should be fine.
04:35:08 <elliott> Gregor: How about you just send me a compiled umlbox/umlbox-linux
04:35:14 <elliott> Or even I guess just the latter
04:35:43 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/umlbox-linux
04:36:14 <elliott> Your willingness to do this has made me more suspicious of this binary than any other
04:37:00 <elliott> No filesystem could mount root, tried: ext3 ext2 ext4
04:37:00 <elliott> Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(98,0)
04:37:03 <elliott> Gregor: I think I know the problem.
04:37:15 <Gregor> It doesn't need to mount your host filesystem.
04:37:23 <Gregor> It just mounts an initrd, then uses hostfs.
04:37:27 <elliott> Then why did it try ext3/ext2/ext4
04:37:48 <Gregor> I have NO clue. Does it barf the umlbox-linux command line?
04:39:38 <elliott> Kernel command line: initrd=/home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz ubda=/tmp/24023.conf mem=256M con1=fd:0,fd:3 con2=null con=null,fd:1 root=98:0
04:40:04 <oerjan> we need an esolang called Dahell now. it should vaguely resemble haskell, but get as much as possible slightly wrong in ways that blow up horribly when combined (no, C++ is not close enough.)
04:40:10 <Gregor> I wonder if somehow the way it's configured, I need to actually ASK it to use initrd...
04:40:38 <Gregor> elliott: In umlbox, can you add "root=ram0" to the kernel command line?
04:40:51 <Gregor> I THINK that's how you explicitly ask for it to use initrd as root.
04:40:56 <Gregor> umlbox-initrd.gz exists, right?
04:41:25 <elliott> No filesystem could mount root, tried: ext3 ext2 ext4
04:41:25 <elliott> Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0)
04:41:28 <elliott> Kernel command line: initrd=/home/elliott/src/hackego/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz ubda=/tmp/24040.conf mem=256M con1=fd:0,fd:3 con2=null con=null,fd:1 root=ram0
04:41:58 <Gregor> gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz | file -
04:42:56 <Gregor> Maybe you don't have cpio ^^
04:43:55 <elliott> $ gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz | file -
04:43:56 <elliott> /dev/stdin: no read permission
04:44:59 <Gregor> My whole universe just collapsed in on itself.
04:45:04 <elliott> It's like I'm using a version of Linux that's subtly different to everyone else's.
04:45:21 <pikhq> I think you are actually using the Deathstation.
04:45:28 <Gregor> gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz > umlbox-initrd ; file umlbox-initrd
04:45:38 <elliott> umlbox-initrd.gz: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Tue Dec 11 03:48:01 2012, max compression
04:45:52 <elliott> $ gunzip -c umlbox-initrd.gz > umlbox-initrd ; file umlbox-initrd
04:46:02 <pikhq> Oh good, the header's correct at least.
04:46:03 <elliott> I don't have a cpio(1) if that matters
04:46:15 <elliott> I must say the error reporting could be better.
04:46:28 <Gregor> I just added "|| rm -f umlbox-initrd.gz" to the Makefile X-D
04:46:31 <elliott> Whaddo I do once I have cpio? make clean && make?
04:46:37 <Gregor> Just rm that file and make.
04:46:48 <pikhq> if you feel insane you could install pax(1) instead, and then hack the Makefile. :P
04:47:00 <elliott> Except it fucks up my terminal.
04:47:08 <Gregor> Yeah, it does that with -v ^^´
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04:48:03 <elliott> how do i change its prefix
04:49:00 <fungot> elliott: we just got through database normalization. normalization turns fnord strings into fnord ones. buttons are usually pngs, i think i got it to work for tho
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04:50:18 <Gregor> Y'know you don't have to shut it down to change the prefix.
04:50:21 <elliott> Actually I guess I need it in hex
04:50:42 <Gregor> The major point of multibot is you never need to take it down, you just add and remove commands willy-nilly.
04:51:08 <elliott> % is my old bot's prefix :(
04:52:00 <shachaf> elliott: Remember when you wrote that script to @admin - me?
04:55:01 <HackEgo> 757) <calamari> there was a time when I liked wearing a tie too.. I was a mormon. not claiming one has to be a religious nutcase to wear a tie, of course
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04:55:54 <elliott> Why is mine slower than Gregor's?
04:56:17 <shachaf> I guess your computer is worse?
04:56:20 <GregorSucks> /home/elliott/src/hackego/hackbot/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hi: not found
04:56:32 <Gregor> elliott: ALL THE MORE REASON TO MAKE IT FASTER
04:56:36 <Gregor> http://codu.org/tmp/marigoldsnuffles.gif
04:56:43 <zzo38> Use the nickname of the bot and a colon and space as the prefix, except private messages which should use no prefix at all.
04:56:43 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
04:56:47 <elliott> Gregor: I've forgotten how I was even going to make it faster.
04:56:50 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1m 27d 12h 10m 13s ago: Want a message?
04:56:50 <lambdabot> AnotherTest said 1m 27d 12h 9m 15s ago: and another one
04:56:50 <lambdabot> fizzie said 16h 23m 44s ago: That is, the name lookup is done the way you wanted, with the members being considered defined in the scope in which the union is declared. I have not checked whether C++
04:56:50 <lambdabot> makes it undefined to read an union member that was not the one last written to.
04:56:58 <Gregor> elliott: By making it have a persistent umlbox process.
04:57:04 <Gregor> Good luck with that, by the way X-D
04:57:43 <Gregor> My suggestion would be to, much more simply, have it just have a umlbox process waiting in the wings, so to speak. Still one-time use, but already there.
04:58:49 <elliott> That wouldn't make doing, e.g. 5 `quotes any faster.
04:59:04 <elliott> Do people really care about the performance of one command?
04:59:17 <elliott> I guess if HackEgo is being merged.
04:59:50 <Gregor> You could make it pool.
05:00:11 <Gregor> Need five fast `quotes? FIVE UMLBOX PROCESSES. BADA-BING BADA-BOOM
05:01:53 <elliott> Gregor: That seems like a good idea actually...
05:01:58 <elliott> Just keep 10 or so UMLBoxes running constantly.
05:02:31 <HackEgo> 392) <tswett> elliott: by the way, you're now almost capable of crawling.
05:02:31 <HackEgo> 54) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
05:02:32 <HackEgo> 673) <elliott> I'm not biased towards humanity over sentient .txt files.
05:02:32 <HackEgo> 776) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
05:02:34 <HackEgo> 719) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
05:02:34 <elliott> I mean, I don't see any reason not to.
05:02:45 <Gregor> elliott: I don't know any reason not to.
05:03:04 <elliott> shachaf: That was a really flimsy excuse for spam.
05:03:14 <shachaf> elliott: Better than your usual excuses.
05:03:51 <elliott> Are you seriously making a conspiracy out of the fact that occasionally some quotes are called up to delete when the channel is quiet which literally nobody but you has a problem with...
05:05:15 <HackEgo> 593) <Phantom_Hoover> oh god oh god <Phantom_Hoover> what if I become <Phantom_Hoover> attracted <Phantom_Hoover> to birds
05:05:36 <HackEgo> 637) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory.
05:05:44 <HackEgo> 434) <itidus20> monqy: last night in my dreams I saw a false photo album of my childhood... looking ghostly
05:05:48 <HackEgo> 322) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
05:05:50 <HackEgo> 10) <Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
05:05:59 <kmc> `delquote 10
05:06:04 <HackEgo> *poof* <Madelon> 11 holes for me :D
05:06:31 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, I wonder what should start the UMLBoxes, since there's nothing really long-running...
05:06:45 <Gregor> Idonnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
05:07:06 <elliott> I guess runner.sh could start them actually
05:07:32 <elliott> And they'd just maintain FIFOs in multibot_cmds
05:08:47 <kmc> apparently there is a new controversy over whether scotland automatically stays in the EU if it leaves the UK
05:08:52 <kmc> or whether they have to re-apply
05:09:18 <elliott> Except then it's not clear which FIFO a given process wants to send to
05:10:02 <elliott> Wait, does UMLBox even forward stdin...
05:10:13 <Gregor> It does if you don't explicitly tell it not to.
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05:14:20 <elliott> Hmmmmmmmm I guess I could make the UMLBoxers just create dummy files to signify when they're running
05:14:38 <oerjan> kmc: i've seen the same problem mentioned regarding catalonia. well that and the fact in their case spain would probably be pissed enough to veto it.
05:14:59 <kmc> interesting
05:15:22 <kmc> can a single state veto another state joining / remaining in the EU?
05:15:33 <kmc> it sounds like there is not an established procedure for this
05:15:47 <kmc> for the case of an existing state splitting into two, i mean
05:16:00 <tswett> elliott: you can walk now and you know a couple of words, by the way.
05:16:07 <kmc> seems kind of short-sighted but it may have been a third-rail issue when they were putting together the initial treaties
05:16:14 <tswett> Though as far as I can remember, the only words you know are "tractor", "bye-bye", and "thank you".
05:16:18 <oerjan> indeed. all the splitting states in europe recently did so before any part joined the eu.
05:16:32 <elliott> tswett: Those are the only words I kno
05:17:02 <Gregor> elliott: You could have a single FIFO to indicate when umlboxen are ready, and every time a new process comes into play, it makes a new umlbox in the background that (eventually) reports on the end of that fifo, then pull out the first one on the fifo.
05:17:04 <oerjan> there _is_ a precedent for only part of a state being a member, though (e.g. greenland)
05:17:59 <elliott> Gregor: Hmm, as in the FIFO would just be a stream of "umlboxer 1 ready", "umlboxer 7 ready", etc.?
05:18:14 <elliott> Not sure why you'd need it to dynamically make new UMLBoxes
05:18:31 <kmc> there are a bunch of weird cases actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_the_European_Union
05:18:40 <elliott> I was assuming you'd just have a script that does "spawn a UMLBox, wait for a command on my FIFO, give it that command, wait until it dies, go to step 1"
05:18:40 <Gregor> elliott: It creates a new one so that there's the right number on the queue when it consumes one *shrugs*
05:19:12 <elliott> Hmm, probably I should just write a Python script that maintains all the UMLBox processes itself rather than trying to separate them out at all
05:19:47 <tswett> elliott: also, you don't seem to be aware that you only say "thank you" when someone else gives you something, not when you give someone else something.
05:19:53 <tswett> Oh right, you also know the word "poop".
05:20:03 <elliott> this is just sounding more and more like me
05:20:12 <tswett> And you say it whenever anyone trips over one of those springy doorstops.
05:20:35 <oerjan> tswett: maybe elliott is a buddhist, i hear they do that reverse thanking thing with monks
05:20:41 <shachaf> kmc: You're running unstable now?
05:20:46 <shachaf> I thought you were running testing.
05:21:05 <kmc> usually what happens is i set up to run testing, but to have the ability to install packages from unstable
05:21:11 <kmc> and then my system gradually becomes unstable
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05:21:28 <kmc> nah it's fine
05:21:28 <elliott> ...I guess so is Debian in general.
05:21:30 <kmc> apt handles it fine
05:21:39 <kmc> except that things in unstable tend to depend on other things in unstable
05:21:48 <kmc> so you end up gradually "upgrading" to unstable
05:23:08 <Fiora> my workplace uses gentoo and I've kind of noticed that happen too
05:23:15 <Fiora> where if I want one unstable thing I end up getting every unstable thing
05:23:29 <Fiora> except with lots of portage blocked packages <_<;
05:25:34 <shachaf> Gentoo isn't good at that.
05:28:56 <kmc> workplace using gentoo, that's interesting
05:29:06 <kmc> i hear it is good if you need a large number of local changes to packages
05:29:54 <kmc> gentoo does have a way to distribute binary packages right
05:30:34 <shachaf> In my experience Gentoo is good if you like having your package manager incurably broken.
05:30:43 <Fiora> they use ebuilds for a lot of their own programs and keep some specific versions and packages
05:30:47 <Fiora> it's kind of icky though
05:30:53 <Fiora> I think it's partially because a previous sysadmin set it up with gentoo
05:31:32 <Fiora> I'm mainly just not very good with it though
05:32:34 <kmc> maybe when I get my new laptop I should install NixOS instead of Debian
05:33:06 <shachaf> I heard NixOS is actually usable!
05:33:21 <kmc> that's cool
05:33:23 <shachaf> roconnor uses NixOS in hard mode
05:33:26 <kmc> "Actually usable!" -- shachaf
05:33:30 <kmc> they can put that on the DVD box set
05:33:34 <kmc> "hard mode"?
05:33:43 <shachaf> Or /lib64, or whatever it is.
05:33:45 <shachaf> So no /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
05:34:00 <kmc> where does your ELF interpreter live?
05:34:07 <kmc> that's hard mode because it breaks most linux binarieS?
05:34:40 <shachaf> They have a tool for patching ELF files to refer to it.
05:35:31 <kmc> good times
05:35:47 <kmc> and this is better than symlinking?
05:36:12 <elliott> kmc: you have to patch ELFs anyway
05:36:24 <shachaf> You could symlink those too.
05:36:35 * elliott has read the Nix/NixOS papers
05:36:42 <shachaf> But it would cause problems.
05:36:42 <elliott> they are very very good at getting unix to do something it doesn't want to do at all
05:36:48 <elliott> shachaf: yes if you don't care about the whole point of nix...
05:36:57 <elliott> I mean it does the symlink thing to a degree
05:37:04 <shachaf> I think some people do it and it works ish.
05:37:42 <kmc> aren't most shared libs referred to by filename only and not path?
05:39:03 <shachaf> Maybe I'm wrong about this "hard mode" thing and it's the regular thing.
05:39:17 <shachaf> roconnor said it was a thing he chooses to do, or something like that, I think.
05:39:25 <shachaf> kmc: You should try NixOS and tell me if it's good!
05:39:40 <kmc> perhaps NixOS will fix my X1 Carbon power management problems
05:40:20 <ais523> hey, is this edit vandalism, or mistake correction?: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Brainfuck_algorithms&diff=35029&oldid=34951
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05:40:29 <ais523> too tired to really think about it right now
05:41:12 <kmc> shachaf: did I tell you my laptop shipped finally?
05:41:15 <kmc> and it will not be free :/
05:42:49 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . Talk:Emmental; 15:40 . . (-29,247) . . Chris Pressey (Talk | contribs | block) (move Talk:Mascarpone discussion to Talk:Mascarpone) [rollback]
05:42:52 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . N Talk:Mascarpone; 15:39 . . (+29,446) . . Chris Pressey (Talk | contribs | block) (move Talk:Mascarpone discussion to Talk:Mascarpone)
05:42:55 <elliott> is there a way to keep the histories somehow
05:43:07 <elliott> 05:37:42 <kmc> aren't most shared libs referred to by filename only and not path?
05:43:16 <elliott> kmc: with nix you always want everything to refer to an exact version
05:43:23 <elliott> that's basically the point
05:43:34 <elliott> stuff directly knows where all its dependencies are and there's no "resolution"
05:43:52 <elliott> also they do some really wild hacks to get builds repeatable so the hashes are consistent
05:43:59 <elliott> like with timestamps and stuff
05:44:27 <elliott> the thing with nixos is that you need the packaging to be really good
05:44:38 <elliott> because you want to do the configuration of all your software in the actual nix language
05:44:45 <elliott> and it generates the config files from that
05:45:05 <elliott> i mean i think you can just tell it "make a config file with this and expand the paths"
05:45:11 <elliott> but you don't get as much coolness ;p
05:46:42 <elliott> kmc: also I think you are locked-in to upstart as the init system
05:46:47 <elliott> which is a shame because I don't like upstart
05:47:22 <kmc> that sucks
05:47:25 <elliott> all that said their tech is so advanced that it's hard for me to consider all other package managers as anything more than broken
05:47:45 <elliott> not sure I'd actually use the OS but they really do just get so many problems right
05:48:01 <kmc> it sounds like if this actually works well, it would eliminate the need for programs like puppet and chef
05:48:23 <kmc> which basically try to apply a declarative configuration description on top of a conventional distribution
05:48:36 <elliott> kmc: yeah you can do things like make nix create a livecd of your current system
05:48:40 <elliott> or rollback to the configuration you used 3 days ago
05:48:46 <elliott> or start your current configuration in qemu
05:48:52 <elliott> they have tools to do this automatically
05:48:54 <kmc> that's very cool
05:50:01 <kmc> i have a feeling learning this will make me hate using debian and puppet at work
05:50:08 <kmc> in the way that learning haskell will make one hate using python at work
05:50:31 <shachaf> Do you hate using Python at work?
05:51:11 <kmc> not really
05:51:15 <kmc> i hate some aspects of it
05:51:34 <kmc> but i would hate some aspects of using haskell and ghc as well
05:53:02 <kmc> right now i am very annoyed that there's no reasonable way to set a timeout on a function call
05:53:19 <kmc> can't use SIGALRM because we are already forced to use python's shitty threads
05:53:24 <kmc> can't use python's shitty threads because they are shitty
05:53:28 <kmc> but we have been through this here before
05:54:19 <shachaf> "I'm a programmer, and my tools hate me... and I hate them. And they hate me for hating them and I hate them for hating me. And we hate each other. And that's because none of us got enough hate in our childhood."
05:56:19 <kmc> to be fair I like a lot of things about python as well
05:56:39 <kmc> python and javascript are two of the better languages that you can reliably get paid to use
05:56:47 <Bike> shachaf: is this the beginning to your romance novel
05:58:26 <Fiora> he will find his true love, a programming language he doesn't hate
05:59:57 <shachaf> lambdabot: @ is great, isn't it?
05:59:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
06:00:00 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
06:00:02 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
06:00:04 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
06:00:06 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
06:00:08 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
06:00:10 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
06:00:20 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:00:22 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:00:24 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:00:27 <kmc> ^^^^^ best command ever
06:00:33 <Bike> is this what death feels like
06:00:47 <kmc> either that or sex
06:01:11 <Bike> @help yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:04:03 <nortti> remember rembember, the fifth of november...
06:06:37 <kmc> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:06:52 <kmc> so do you want to know the story behind @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:07:36 <kmc> i guess once upon a time, lambdabot evaluated things in an implicit "let v = ..."
06:07:47 <kmc> but people started to refer to 'v' within those expressions and got crazy results
06:07:53 <kmc> so 'v' was renamed to 'yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw'
06:08:43 <Fiora> was that just like, a random keyboardsmash
06:09:30 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:09:43 <kmc> anyway these commands relive some of the strange results people got
06:10:06 <Bike> Juan: i think they just mean the cgi, because otherwise, wtf
06:10:12 <Bike> @yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
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06:12:54 <kmc> Just 'Juan'
06:13:16 <Bike> it was intentional, i swear
06:16:56 <zzo38> So can you refer to 'yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw' within those expressions?
06:17:26 <Bike> > yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
06:17:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw'
06:17:29 <oerjan> that was the whole point
06:18:17 <Bike> zzo38: you were the one dealing with TeX demimicrons, right?
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06:18:37 <Bike> http://www.math.upenn.edu/~wilf/website/dek.pdf this is for you, then
06:22:06 <zzo38> I did write one letter to Knuth, a year ago, I think. I did use TeX, and I use TeX for all of my typesetting stuff actually, but I did not use PDF. I did get someone to deliver it, though (it was addressed correctly, but I knew someone who was going to be near there, so he delivered it to Knuth's office).
06:22:47 <zzo38> I did include the return address too. However, I have not received a reply. Well, it doesn't matter; it is not particularly important.
06:23:43 <zzo38> It is the same address you can find by WHOIS on my domain name, but my name is Aaron Black, and ignore the telephone number and email and so on since none of those are mine; but the postal address will reach me if mail is sent there.
06:25:13 <zzo38> Just so you know, that is one way to contact me. Of course you can use the IRC and wiki talk pages but postal mail can be used too.
06:26:03 <zzo38> And if it is postal mail I am guaranteed to receive it as soon as it arrives (not as soon as it is sent); with the computer of course it is just whenever I check, which might or might not be faster.
06:50:02 <zzo38> Is SourceForge broke?
06:54:16 <shachaf> Was your letter a bug report?
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06:56:39 <zzo38> shachaf: I do not remember what it was.
06:56:59 <shachaf> I once emailed a bug report and got a reply.
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06:58:51 <zzo38> Wikipedia also seems broke.
06:59:13 <zzo38> Maybe they upgraded something wrong?
06:59:26 <Fiora> wikipedia works okay here
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06:59:56 <zzo38> On my computer it broke.
07:00:38 <zzo38> What is the DocBook command for URL?
07:07:29 <zzo38> I think I figure out
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07:15:33 <fizzie> It's the CS bachelor's thesis presentation day today; one of them peoples has done a thing on FM synthesis of sounds on a GPU.
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07:18:01 <fizzie> Sadly, that one is in the other session.
07:18:40 <fizzie> Mine just has things like MultipathTCP.
07:22:57 <elliott> kmc: Should I add a swap pratition?
07:23:01 <elliott> total used free shared buffers cached
07:23:01 <elliott> Mem: 3792 3684 107 0 0 146
07:23:01 <elliott> -/+ buffers/cache: 3538 253
07:23:09 <elliott> My computer is kind of laggy. All the time.
07:35:35 <fizzie> You should use less memory.
07:35:50 <fizzie> Start by dropping X, I think that'll help.
07:36:11 <fizzie> (Also any X clients you might be running.)
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07:46:09 <zzo38_> I did play Dungeons&Dragons game.
07:47:57 <zzo38_> We were on a spiral staircase. It is dark (I can see in dark, they can't), but I did not want to light up since they would then see us; instead we hold each other's hand.
07:50:21 <zzo38_> We found the door with magic runes and eventually managed to get in.
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07:53:08 <fizzie> It sounds very dramatic.
07:58:05 <zzo38_> He is glad his royal wizard is there, and he is glad Isolde is there, but he is not as glad that I am there.
07:58:27 <zzo38_> We have to escape, perhaps through the barred window, but some people outside are going to break the door...
07:58:37 <zzo38_> Nevertheless, I have idea: R-KB1!!
08:03:17 <zzo38_> What is *your* idea???
08:03:46 <kmc> http://thoughtcatalog.com/2012/how-to-hack-chipotle/
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08:23:55 <Fiora> kmc: that sounds like a bad idea considering that those burritos feel like they're about ready to explode as is XD
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08:29:10 <fizzie> kmc's idea is to serve the king some chipotle?
08:29:23 <fizzie> It sounds not necessarily helpful.
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08:37:45 <zzo38_> When I am using 7-Zip to list an executable it mentions two files with the same name.
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08:48:24 <zzo38_> I can extract the .rsrc which seems to be the resource data, however neither 7-Zip nor Resource Editor is capable of loading that file.
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09:46:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan okay I fixed the /// thing
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10:04:20 <elliott> turns out my esolang wiki deployment strat is totally fucked when they up the major version
10:04:34 <elliott> does anyone have any suggestions other than cry a lil
10:05:29 <quintopia> cry a moderate amount and flail alot
10:05:57 <elliott> i can only manage crushing despair
10:06:17 <elliott> how can I sleep when esolang is outdated
10:07:28 <elliott> I honestly want to write a wiki that recreates MW's functionality and interface
10:07:33 <elliott> just so I don't have to maintain this installation
10:07:43 <elliott> you have to keep the fucking config and data files in the same directory as the code it's the worst thing ever
10:07:51 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/upgrading
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10:10:25 <Jafet> Run it in a VM like HackEgo
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10:13:18 <elliott> maybe I should just run esolang on git mediawiki...
10:13:33 <HackEgo> Snowyowl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:14:29 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
10:14:41 <elliott> I don't think you know what that's referencing.
10:14:42 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
10:15:37 <Jafet> `run stat wisdom/welcome
10:15:38 <HackEgo> File: `wisdom/welcome' \ Size: 233 Blocks: 8 IO Block: 1024 regular file \ Device: 10h/16dInode: 767424 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2012-12-11 10:14:59.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2012-12-11 10:14:58.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2012-12-11 10:14:58.000000000
10:15:58 <shachaf> If it's a good reference I'll keep it.
10:17:30 <HackEgo> ? \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ais523 \ atriq \ augur \ banach-tarski \ boily \ bonvenon \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ england \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finnish \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ freefull \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ gaspacho \ gazpacho \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \
10:19:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: banach-tarski: not found
10:19:14 <Jafet> `cat wisdom/banach-tarski
10:19:15 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
10:21:29 <Snowyowl> recursion is an anagram of recursion
10:23:24 <shachaf> Is your nick "Snowy owl" or "Snow yowl"?????
10:24:16 <Snowyowl> not sure, how does OR work on strings?
10:24:52 <Snowyowl> "Snowy owl" or "Snow yowl" == "Snowyyowl" bitwise
10:25:28 <Snowyowl> damn, I was hoping to make a witty but ambiguous answer there and failed terribly. It's "Snowy owl"
10:25:50 <shachaf> > chr $ ord 'y' .|. ord ' '
10:27:48 <Snowyowl> No I don't, and stop calling my Shirley.
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13:33:39 <Sgeo|web> elliott: Phantom_Hoover Fiora: Did coppro ever use the chance to beat me? There was an update a significant number of hours ago
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13:37:48 <fizzie> If you keep doing that competitive thing, it's just going to lead to someone having a bot push the RSS in here sooner or later.
13:40:24 <Sgeo|web> I think only coppro is thinking of it competitively. And not really taking it seriously
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13:57:08 <fizzie> In other news, some SNES games? http://www.ebay.com/itm/300830169972 (It's the BSNES guy.)
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14:22:41 <Arc_Koen> en fait, ça me choue de dire "dédié aux mathématiques et ses applications" : si c'est "les" mathématiques, c ça doit être "leurs" applications
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14:36:17 <Snowyowl> hey why are there three esolangs that are "a file whose length is the base-2 representation of a Brainfuck program"
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14:37:07 <Snowyowl> it's not like they're even usable for anything
14:41:55 <fizzie> Maybe you don't have sparse file support and have a lot of disk space to get rid of?
14:45:26 <Snowyowl> I just don't see why we need more than one such language
14:46:44 <fizzie> Clearly not a good argument for intelligent design, that's for sure.
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14:55:08 <Arc_Koen> Snowyowl: I believe what we need is a better referencement of brainfuck derivatives
14:55:46 <Arc_Koen> "WARNING: This may have already been thought of by a couple other well-thinking enthusiasts before you."
14:56:41 <Arc_Koen> I think we also have 2 or 3 identical "turing tarpits" with two instructions, "no-op" and "execute", that both make a so-called 'wheel' of brainfuck instructions spin
14:57:16 <Arc_Koen> (for instance ! means > and .! means < and ..! means + etc.)
14:59:16 <fizzie> Braincrash and what else?
15:00:13 <fizzie> Ellipsis, MGIFOS and Unary are all Unary, I suppose.
15:20:01 <Fiora> Sgeo|web: competitive homestuck-update notifications is just. you're ridiculous XD
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15:27:18 <Fiora> 05:33 < Sgeo|web> elliott: Phantom_Hoover Fiora: Did coppro ever use the chance to beat me? There was an update a significant number of hours ago
15:27:21 <Fiora> 05:33 < Sgeo|web> 10 hours ago I think
15:27:28 <Fiora> (that was the context)
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16:07:24 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland: architecture https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/425714_10151235714854681_575729566_n.jpg
16:13:00 <fizzie> Hervanta is where Tampere's cheap clone of a "technical university" (Tampere University of Technology) student housing is.
16:13:12 <fizzie> I've bought a tape deck from one of those buildings.
16:15:28 <fizzie> 3% of people of Hervanta live in a single building, according to Wikipedia.
16:15:47 <fizzie> (Okay, a single "student housing complex".)
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17:05:41 <lambdabot> elliott said 7h 19m 26s ago: okay I fixed the /// thing
17:08:40 <fizzie> Are you trying to program in Ook! there? I think you made a mistake.
17:09:15 <fizzie> Are you trying to say "OKAY"? I think you made a mistake.
17:09:31 <quintopia> he was still trying to program in ook
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17:58:02 <kmc> TIL that AMZN has a P:E ratio of over 3,000
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18:07:31 <ion> poop:excrement?
18:08:08 <fizzie> Or relatively little excrement, I suppose.
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18:46:57 <zzo38> Do you know what time the winter solstice is this year? I calculated it on my computer
18:48:16 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice ?
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18:48:48 <zzo38> There is Wikipedia article of it, but I can calculate it on my computer, without Wikipedia.
18:49:52 <olsner> hmm, you just wanted to know whether or not we knew it?
18:49:52 <zzo38> It says at 3:11 AM in my time zone, at December 21.
18:50:03 <olsner> I didn't know before I looked it up
18:50:07 <zzo38> Julian Day = 2456282.9666
18:50:36 <zzo38> Well, Wikipedia will tell you but why don't you calculate it on your own computer? I think even on the day before, they even said it on the news on television
18:51:50 <olsner> the main reason I don't calculate it myself is that I'm not interested in knowing when the solstice is
18:52:13 <fizzie> olsner: But it's CRUCIAL INFORMATION. How do you go grocery shopping without knowing that?
18:52:20 <zzo38> O, you don't want to celebrate the solstice either?
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18:53:06 <zzo38> I don't think it is going to affect grocery shopping much, but it does affect the amount of sunlight, and so on
18:53:24 <olsner> fizzie: grocery shopping? I just use my replicator
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18:57:05 <olsner> well, christmas is pretty much the winter solstice but with an easier-to-calculate date
18:57:11 <olsner> that and EVIL COMMERCIALISM
18:57:36 <zzo38> I think when they decided that date it was the winter solstice at approximately that time.
18:58:58 <elliott> 13:37:48 <fizzie> If you keep doing that competitive thing, it's just going to lead to someone having a bot push the RSS in here sooner or later.
18:59:04 <elliott> fizzie: That would be convenient because it could be ignored.
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18:59:40 <olsner> what's the "competitive thing"?
18:59:42 <elliott> I like how I caused oerjan tons of work.
19:02:03 <fizzie> olsner: Competitive Homestuck update announcements.
19:02:23 <fizzie> olsner: I hear it's supposed to be in the next Olympics.
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19:12:17 <kmc> http://twitter.com/SeinfeldToday
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19:14:32 <Bike> «Jerry discovers Newman is secretly an Internet famous fan fiction writer. George gets aroused reading 50 Shades of Gray, questions self.»
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20:21:36 <zzo38> Do you have program to play Impulse Tracker instrument that can be made into Csound plugins?
20:28:09 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMDp3A7aZeY "Description: i love fizzie the best of them all"
20:28:33 <fizzie> I didn't really realize I was an aquapet.
20:28:43 <elliott> this looks pretty much how i imagine fizzie to be irl
20:29:32 <elliott> "it makes me not want fizzie. its loud and annoying."
20:29:47 <elliott> i mean, sure, he's loud and annoying but do you have to say it outright like that
20:30:01 <elliott> it is not his fault he was born a speech recognition researcher
20:30:52 <fizzie> Speech recognition researches are born, not made.
20:30:56 <elliott> ps does this mean fizzie searches youtube for himself
20:31:55 <fizzie> We're e-stalking my wife's coworker's new boyfriend, via his IRC nick/anime website profile/okcupid profile; I just thought I'd see what I get with my nick.
20:32:13 <fizzie> It's fortunately a common enough word; no me-related results in the ten first pages.
20:32:27 <fizzie> You know, just to pass the time.
20:34:15 <elliott> (I think fizzie is planning to murder him.)
20:35:06 <fizzie> The anime-watching website's statistics said he's watched like two-three thousand episodes of the stuff.
20:35:34 <Fiora> how bad/good is his taste?
20:35:51 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't know, the site doesn't rate that automatically.
20:36:25 * Fiora imagines a site that uses k-means clustering to categorize anime fans
20:36:33 <nortti> fizzie: what is "the stuff"?
20:36:40 <Fiora> "mecha fan" "yaoi fangirl" "moe otaku" "pedophile" etc
20:36:53 <fizzie> Fiora: I'm sure some of them do clustering.
20:37:11 <Fiora> http://www.tsurupeta.info/content/anison-classification-from-unsupervised-lexical-clustering is what made me think of it
20:37:59 <fizzie> Perhaps I should do what our people always do and make a SOM out of it. Except I don't have a database dump from an animu site.
20:38:24 <nortti> fizzie: copypaste and format trough awk/perl
20:38:25 <fizzie> Self-organizing maps. They're kind of what our department is most famous for.
20:39:32 <fizzie> It's a kind of a dimensionality reduction trick, from one point of view.
20:39:38 <fizzie> Oh, just read the intro of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organizing_map
20:39:56 <fizzie> Quite often you end up with 2D maps with recognizable clusters, anyway.
20:40:30 <elliott> fizzie: you once made one of those of the channel right
20:41:04 <elliott> fizzie: Did you ever make something that analysis the logs and builds a model that can predict who is most likely to have said a given line on the channel?
20:41:10 <elliott> that sounds right up your alley and also cool
20:41:32 <nortti> that would certainly be interesting
20:41:50 <fizzie> I did two different very preliminary experimets re stuff like that, but never anything terribly finished.
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20:42:18 <fizzie> One with our book author classification course project SOM thing, and another with just a SVM classifier.
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20:42:48 <fizzie> No; it was using the statistical features, you need a lot of text to get sensible estimates of those.
20:42:48 <elliott> more like self-organising crap am I right
20:42:57 <elliott> fizzie: #esoteric is pretty old!!
20:43:02 <Fiora> how does SOM compare to k-means stuff?
20:44:00 <fizzie> elliott: Oh, sure; it works reasonably if you take like a thousand lines from each speaker and use statistics from those as samples. But it's not as nice as the "guess an author for each line independently" trick.
20:44:27 <fizzie> Fiora: If you want to judge his taste, this was his "completed" series list: http://sprunge.us/YPcM
20:44:38 <elliott> fizzie: well I don't care how you do it, I just want something that takes a line and says it's n% chance to be fizzie, m% chance to be elliott elliott, ...
20:44:57 <Fiora> that's a huge list
20:46:13 <fizzie> Fiora: And SOM's not exactly a clustering algorithm per se, it's kind of more like something like other manifold learning algorithms, it finds a low-dimensional (usually 2D) manifold from the input data, minimizing something.
20:46:32 <Fiora> so it kind of finds a simple model for the data?
20:46:44 <zzo38> fizzie: Do they have "uncompleted" series lists too?
20:46:44 <fizzie> Like, uh, naximum variance unfolding or something.
20:46:52 <elliott> I think fizzie is just making up words.
20:47:19 <fizzie> zzo38: They have "watching", "completed", "dropped" and "plan to watch". (But the other three were shorter.)
20:47:51 <fizzie> 6 "watching", 365 "completed", 4 "dropped", 43 "plan to watch".
20:48:04 <fizzie> Fiora: And yes, you could say it finds a simple model for the data.
20:48:07 <Fiora> that list has everything from near-porn seinen shows to shoujo
20:48:33 <Fiora> and shonen like fullmetal alchemist and ... gosh that's a lot of anime
20:48:37 <Fiora> I think I've watched... like... 15
20:49:08 <fizzie> And sorry, I misremembered: the "completed" list is about 5700 episodes. (A hundred days' worth.)
20:50:17 <zzo38> The anime I like to watched included Akagi, Kaiji, Death Note, etc
20:50:36 <nortti> anime I like to watch includes Another, Mirain
20:50:50 <nortti> +Nikki, Higurashi and Umineko
20:51:09 <nortti> figure out what you want
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20:51:42 * Fiora knows only one person who ha a longer list than that, and she's watched about 500
20:52:19 <fizzie> Fiora: Basically a SOM just takes a (usually) 2D grid and then schmoogles it into the data space in such a way that it tries to cover the distribution of the training data well; it's essentially figuring out a vector quantization codebook for the data. Then you can use it e.g. for classification by labeling the grid nodes and doing some nearest-node/nearest-neighbourhood stuff. Or just ...
20:52:25 <fizzie> ... visualize things; the "u-matrix" (average distance between a node and its neighbours) is often plotted, it will show "borders" around clear clusters.
20:55:37 <fizzie> Like uh this I pasted a while ago, https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/girls_on_top.png -- that there is a u-matrix.
20:56:21 <fizzie> It's just traditionally a hex grid. You can do rectangular too.
20:56:26 <nortti> fizzie: why name like that?
20:56:33 * elliott wonders about the filename.
20:57:09 <fizzie> nortti, elliott: The red dots (female authors) are plotted on top of blue dots (male authors) when there happen to be books from authors of both genders in the same SOM cell.
20:57:17 <fizzie> (There's a boys_on_top.png there too.)
20:58:08 <fizzie> The size of a dot represents the count of books from authors of that gender that are closest to where that particular grid node is in the feature space.
20:58:15 <Fiora> what features is it charting?
20:58:17 <Bike> mm, i was wondering if it was for more connections between nodes or whatever
20:58:32 <fizzie> So regions of reds are where there are a lot of books by female authors.
20:59:02 <Fiora> but like, what features determine where in the chart the dots go?
20:59:18 <fizzie> And the background color shows the average distance between a node and its neighbours in the feature space, so you can see that the green cluster is separated by a really large gap.
20:59:28 <fizzie> There were some sixty of them.
20:59:32 <fizzie> They're really quite boring.
20:59:53 <fizzie> Word, phrase, sentence lengths, stuff like that.
21:00:22 <Fiora> ahhhh, so the text of the books
21:00:37 <fizzie> Neither male nor female. :p
21:00:54 <Fiora> genderqueer I suppose?
21:00:58 <fizzie> There's the human genome project "book" and some US tax database thing.
21:01:06 <Fiora> Oh, so no listed authors or something?
21:01:09 <fizzie> This was on Project Gutenberg data.
21:01:18 <fizzie> No listed author we could determine a gender for.
21:01:29 <fizzie> I have a feature list here somewhere, where did I put it.
21:02:03 <fizzie> http://p.zem.fi/esomap-feats I think they're the same as these.
21:02:33 <Fiora> ooh, so SOM can effectively cluster/organize a gazillion different features?
21:02:36 <fizzie> The "chars per word (N)"s are histogram bins of the chars-per-word histogram; the (mean) and (variance) ones are, well, sample mean and variance.
21:03:09 <fizzie> It would be a rather bad dimensionality reduction tool if it couldn't. (Though I have a feeling people might still sometimes do like a PCA first instead of using raw features, maybe?)
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21:03:40 <Fiora> I mean, like, K-means isn't really good at that is it?
21:04:06 <fizzie> Possibly not. It suffers a bit from the curse of dimensionality.
21:04:30 <fizzie> But they're not strictly speaking exclusive alternatives; you could do K-means on the data as mapped to the SOM space.
21:05:12 <fizzie> The specific word lists (she+her+hers+herself etc.) are things that an early gender-specific-features-of-written-language paper listed as having good class separability.
21:05:25 <fizzie> And the nouns/verbs/adjectives/adverbs features are pure cheating.
21:06:05 <Fiora> I remember seeing those word lists in gender text classifier things online
21:06:10 <Fiora> but gosh were they /bad/
21:06:21 <Bike> "feels": highly feminine
21:06:29 <Fiora> it reminds me of when I took AI class and we did sentiment classification
21:06:33 <Fiora> and like, 70% accurate was considered amazingly good
21:06:59 <fizzie> It just assigns a POS tag like that based on whether the word in question has higher occurrancy count in WordNet for senses in that particular category; it doesn't try to do parsing, or even any context-dependency at all.
21:08:29 * elliott can't help but expand POS differently
21:09:34 <Fiora> were you able to get like, a % accuracy on gender detection (i.e. train on half the data set, test on the other half)?
21:09:42 <Fiora> or was that not what this does
21:10:17 <fizzie> Fiora: With 10-fold crossvalidation, our SOM clustering thing on Gutenberg data got average gender classification accuracy of 87%; but that's a misleading result, since you get 86% by guessing all-male since the data set is that biased. Average class accuracy (that is, average of the accuracy for males and for females) was 75%. But it really wasn't tuned for classification all that much.
21:11:00 <impomatic> Can anyone recommend a build-a-robot kit?
21:11:02 <Fiora> pfff, the getting 87% by guessing all male. that reminds me of the "weather forecast" that consists of guessing that tomorrow will be the same as today
21:11:07 <Fiora> and is nearly as accurate as actual wather forecasts
21:11:07 <kmc> impomatic: what kind of robot?
21:11:18 <kmc> Fiora: haha
21:11:22 <elliott> Fiora: wasn't that weather thing done in like arizona or something
21:11:29 <elliott> I can't imagine the weather changes much in arizona
21:11:48 <impomatic> kmc: Just something as a Christmas gift... preferably requiring soldering etc.
21:11:56 <fizzie> Fiora: Author attribution accuracy for Gutenberg with our 292-author set (so baseline guess-most-likely of 2.7%) was 39%, so it was certainly better than random guessing, which was pretty much what our goals were; I mean, it was just a project-work thing.
21:12:08 <Fiora> http://weather.slimyhorror.com/ this was for cambridge
21:13:09 <elliott> "I'm making the assumption that predicting today's weather is dead simple, so the BBC couldn't possibly get this wrong."
21:13:12 <elliott> I think this person must be new to the BBC.
21:13:34 <elliott> (ok I admit I just wanted to take a jab at the BBC for no reason and have no real basis)
21:14:36 <elliott> wanna upgrade the wiki for me
21:15:07 <fizzie> Fiora: http://zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png is a confusion matrix for an #esoteric experiment with a "standard" SVM classifier on those same raw features, and maybe some further tweaks, I think using something like "each sample is a snippet of thousand lines from the particular person". It does well for some, less well for others.
21:15:28 <fizzie> elliott: Not really, no.
21:15:52 <elliott> and upgrade the wiki for me instead??
21:16:18 <Fiora> interesting, 'ihope' didn't get a very solid recognizing
21:16:26 <fizzie> Noooo. In fact, I think I have a pressing appointment and need to leave and go do important stuff real soon.
21:16:36 <Fiora> that's very cool though, it can tell you /which/ author wrote something if you have some other text from them
21:17:08 <elliott> fizzie: you're irresponsible :(
21:17:20 <elliott> what if someone exploits the security bugs in the current version
21:17:25 <elliott> and deletes all the brainfuck derivatives
21:17:30 <fizzie> Fiora: With those features, though, it can't really tell you anything about who wrote a single comment, you need to collect quite a lot of it.
21:17:45 <Fiora> wait, if it can't tell you anything, then why the cofidence in that confusion matrix?
21:17:53 <Fiora> or am I missing something
21:18:04 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/0L um, don't we already have literally this exact same language already
21:18:23 <fizzie> Fiora: Because "each sample is a snippet of thousand lines from the particular person". As in, the features are computed from a thousand lines.
21:18:54 <fizzie> You don't get very reliable "mean word length" features from a single comment, after all.
21:19:11 <Fiora> so "with a lot of text, you can find who wrote something"
21:19:26 <fizzie> Right. You could find people who have changed their nicks but not their writing styles.
21:19:38 <fizzie> In fact, I think I did get "automatic" groupings of people who had changed their nicknames in some other experiment.
21:20:20 <elliott> did you find any secret doppelgangers
21:20:27 <Fiora> one thing I've wondered about these things is how well they'd work with the same person but different areas of writing
21:20:35 <Fiora> like let's say someone wrote both technical programming books and romance novels
21:20:44 <Fiora> would it match the two? or would the styles be so different that it would fail?
21:20:50 <Bike> totally hypothetically, eh
21:21:03 <Fiora> I wonder if there's any good databases of that kind of thing
21:21:14 <Arc_Koen> ouh, technical programming romance
21:21:24 <Fiora> ... not in the same book XD
21:21:33 <Arc_Koen> I knew that pointer had a thing for that reference
21:22:02 <fizzie> elliott: I think I did find some pairs for which the machine gave a suspiciously high compatibility ratings, but none of them admitted anything. I forget exactly.
21:22:25 <Fiora> the struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own
21:22:30 <Fiora> "w-will you... will you union me?"
21:23:51 <fizzie> Fiora: I would assume choice of topic/genre could affect at least many of my features (word lengths, type/token count, word classes) more than the individual author.
21:23:53 <zzo38> That confusion matrix of #esoteric seem very much incomplete, I am sure there are a lot more people on this channel than just that.
21:24:06 <Bike> "no, I... I... I'm little-endian!" she cried, forcing herself away (and then you have a few pages explaining endianness, its history, its use in networks...)
21:24:07 <elliott> no I'm pretty sure that is a comprehensive list of anyone who has ever been in the channel, ever
21:24:10 <zzo38> Also it redirected to http://xn--nxa.zem.fi/~fis/esoconfnf.png what is that for?
21:24:23 <elliott> has anyone told zzo38 he doesn't exist yet
21:24:31 <Fiora> Bike: you are terrible and wonderful
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21:25:05 <zzo38> Also some people have changed their names so have more than one name for same people, they should be listed all name together, in the same row/column as the others but all included
21:25:26 <Taneb> That's a very... laconic topic
21:25:50 <Bike> brevity is the soul of a worker, taneb
21:25:57 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: I don't remember where I saw that (was that xkcd? or maybe this very channel?) but I saw a "map" of "words" from the english language, geographically located in a way that reflected their relations to each other in some texts
21:26:13 <fizzie> zzo38: β.zem.fi is a laptop at home where I keep large and/or miscellaneous things, because the zem.fi server has not much disk space.
21:26:23 <elliott> (per the famous rule of logic f(x) = f(y) -> x = y)
21:26:51 <Arc_Koen> (that is, words that would work in the same context, like "two" and "three", or "pizza" and "burger", would be located very near to each other)
21:27:06 <elliott> fizzie: is the wiki updated yet
21:27:30 <Bike> Arc_Koen: "geographically"?
21:27:44 <zzo38> But, you should make up a new one with everyone on, including different name of same people grouped together in the same row/column, and include time as well.
21:28:49 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: There are quite a few ways to make maps like that. Things vaguely like SOM, except many don't actually need feature vectors for the actual points, just pairwise distances you can easily get from relations like that.
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21:29:41 <Bike> Arc_Koen: i mean, i just thought at first it would be like those maps that show where "pop" vs. "soda" is used
21:30:41 <fizzie> Really need to go now, there's a thing. Back in... four-five hours? ->
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21:32:48 <elliott> pretty suspicious of fizzie's sudden departure!!!
21:34:08 <Arc_Koen> Bike: oh, right. Well, not quite. In fact, I have no idea what the location meant - there was no axes or explanation whatsoever, it was just clear that words that usually occupy the same function were very very close
21:34:37 <Arc_Koen> Bike: though I think I can find you a map like you describe, wait a minute
21:36:04 <Arc_Koen> (just mentally substitute "where words are most used" for the legends)
21:36:15 <Bike> as someone living in a white area i am deeply offended
21:36:48 <Fiora> okies, screwdriver set arrived to try to finally get the bad RAM out of this laptop
21:36:55 <Fiora> first step: oh god it's shrinkwrapped
21:37:34 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
21:38:01 <Fiora> second step, shut off the laptop and hope my stick arms don't fail me
21:39:01 <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped.
21:39:07 <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad
21:39:52 <Gregor> `addquote <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped. <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad <elliott> please kill me <elliott> :(
21:39:56 <Bike> hip-hop oriented therapy sounds amazing tbh
21:39:59 <HackEgo> 864) <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped. <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad <elliott> please kill me <elliott> :(
21:48:08 <Fiora> I think I found the culprit, as memtest is going clean so far...
21:48:20 <Fiora> a cursed 8GB stick of patriot memory
21:48:29 <olsner> I wonder if that's the worst pun I've ever heard
21:48:43 <Fiora> that is terrible and I love it
21:48:44 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=08102007
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21:57:48 <kmc> Fiora: did you ever see the paper about how random bitflip errors can be used to escape sandboxing?
21:58:36 <kmc> https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/memerr.pdf
21:59:06 <Fiora> with 70% probability!
21:59:30 <kmc> oh oh and i forgot about http://hakim.ws/BHUS2011/.../BH_US_11_Dinaburg_Bitsquatting_WP.pdf until just now
21:59:31 <Fiora> smart cards -- I wonder if you could use like a small radiation source?
21:59:33 <kmc> this is even more hilarious
21:59:38 <Bike> that's a hell of an intro paragraph there
21:59:45 <kmc> you register evil domain names which are a single bit flip away from a real popular site
21:59:54 <Bike> and that link doesn't seem to be working... oh
22:00:32 <kmc> err whoops
22:00:35 <Bike> heh, message passing isn't object oriented
22:00:36 <kmc> i guess that link is a bad copypaste from google
22:00:42 <kmc> i hate hate hate hate hate how google mangles links
22:01:05 <kmc> http://www.hakim.ws/BHUS2011/materials/Dinaburg/BH_US_11_Dinaburg_Bitsquatting_WP.pdf
22:01:23 <kmc> they registered a bunch of these domains and observed a pretty steady flow of traffic to them
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22:06:51 <Fiora> that first paper is really cool
22:06:56 <Fiora> it's amazing how -easy- the attack is
22:07:00 <Fiora> like, all you have to get is one type violation
22:07:07 <Fiora> and the system is compromised
22:08:51 <Bike> «Since we lacked the time or inclination to learn the oil-drilling trade, we decided to use heat.» lazy!
22:10:14 * kmc imagines asking the MIT Research Reactor people to lower an Android phone into their reactor core
22:10:31 -!- Sgeo|web_ has joined.
22:11:20 <Bike> "guys come on, we just need to verify our type system"
22:11:52 <Fiora> that second paper, jeez. that's really impressive
22:13:11 <ion> Ooh, the VM attack is cool.
22:13:23 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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22:14:31 <GreyKnight> Opinion: http://esolangs.org/wiki/0L seems pretty useless even by joke language standards
22:14:56 <Bike> huh, the iPhone 4 seems very... i dunno, 95 just seems a very low max temp
22:15:07 <elliott> GreyKnight: I was thinking we actually already had the exact same language
22:15:10 <elliott> if you find it do let me know
22:15:17 <elliott> (with a different name, of course)
22:15:40 <Fiora> Bike: I think that's max external, not internal
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22:16:00 <Fiora> like "by our tests, if you use the iphone in a >95 degree environment, internal temps will break thresholds"
22:16:44 <GreyKnight> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nil seems basically the same, they both have the same quine even
22:16:53 <GreyKnight> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Huh%3F is related (and also useless)
22:16:58 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure I'm in an acute area, I should be safe
22:17:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:17:27 <Fiora> all you have to do to be in acute area is to be near Bike :3
22:17:29 <Bike> Fiora: yes, i know
22:17:33 <Bike> Arc_Koen: fahrenheit
22:17:37 <Bike> this is america
22:17:38 <elliott> GreyKnight: aha, nil is it
22:17:50 <Arc_Koen> so how many real degrees does it make? :-)
22:17:59 <Bike> Fiora: but i mean that means it's not rated to operate in arizona most of the time!
22:18:24 <Bike> Arc_Koen: 554.7 °R
22:18:25 <Fiora> weren't there reports of ipads overheating just because of like, being in the sun?
22:18:48 <Bike> rankine, you fool
22:18:50 <Bike> also 25.875 °Rø
22:18:59 <Arc_Koen> now you're just making stuff up!
22:19:01 <elliott> Bike: don't call rankine a fool :(
22:19:10 <Bike> haven't you ever heated things in 19th century france
22:19:32 <Arc_Koen> we heated water until it boiled and called it 100°
22:19:48 <Arc_Koen> and cooled it until it froze and called it 0°
22:19:55 <Bike> oh wait, Rø is 1701
22:20:01 <Bike> and ø is altgr-l, what
22:20:09 <elliott> guys should i reinstall solidity's os
22:20:24 <elliott> or rwin o / if you wanna be weird
22:20:32 <Bike> Arc_Koen: rankine is fahrenheit, except that zero is absolute zero. i'll let this sink in
22:20:49 <FreeFull> shift+altgr / o works too for me
22:21:30 <Arc_Koen> Bike: hrm. Interesting. I think I'm gonna stay the close-minded nationalist freak I am and stick with celsius, then
22:21:35 <elliott> hmmm this swedisn debian mirror isn't terribly fast
22:21:36 <kmc> do you all remember the HTTP-based freenode crapbot flood?
22:21:41 <kmc> that was pretty entertaining
22:21:51 <Bike> Arc_Koen: you're swedish?
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22:22:11 <elliott> oh does this mean I can blame Arc_Koen
22:22:34 <Bike> so what nation are you being closed minded with respect to
22:22:34 <kmc> somebody set up a web page with a form that would auto-POST to http://irc.freenode.org:6667
22:22:40 <Bike> it's important to disambiguate here on the internet
22:22:42 <Arc_Koen> I'm a very non-swedish set of pixels
22:23:06 <kmc> with form contents that the freenode servers would interpret as logging in, joining a bunch of channels, and spamming them with links to said web page
22:23:24 <GreyKnight> Let's just assume he's Finnish, statistically it's likely around here
22:23:40 <kmc> yeah it was pretty brilliant
22:23:56 <kmc> i think freenode implemented a countermeasure where if your IRC session starts with the letters "POST" you are disconnected
22:24:15 <GreyKnight> kmc: ah, so of course every time someone clicked on the link...
22:24:42 <elliott> seems like POST is interpreted as QUIT
22:24:48 <kmc> did you try just now
22:25:03 <kmc> Real Hackers use socat, elliott
22:25:04 <elliott> amusingly it still keeps the connection open for a few seconds
22:25:09 <elliott> to check if you have an ident
22:25:14 <elliott> kmc: socat is the grossest
22:25:55 <elliott> I made a point of using the original ~1996 netcat for a while because it was adorable but I got too lazy compiling it myself whenever I reinstalled
22:25:58 <Bike> i wonder how many protocols are susceptible to an attack like that
22:26:55 <kmc> yeah the book i'm reading on websec mentioned this with SMTP
22:27:02 <kmc> instead of IRC
22:29:43 <elliott> guys i'm upgrading php if it breaks it's not my fault
22:31:51 <Bike> unicode covers everything
22:32:45 <kmc> there's no unicode penis symbol
22:32:55 <kmc> much less COMBINING PENIS ABOVE
22:33:14 <kmc> navigating to http://irc.freenode.org:6667/ in Chromium gives me `net::ERR_UNSAFE_PORT`
22:33:37 <olsner> wtf, chromium has no business deciding which ports you can http to
22:34:18 <kmc> well websec is entirely composed of ad hoc hacks to improve security by interventions on entirely the wrong layer
22:35:00 <olsner> on a related note, I think my ID card has technically expired ... time to figure out how to get a new identity and/or id card
22:35:22 <GreyKnight> I wonder how long it will be before someone actually puts a penis into Unicode
22:36:39 <Bike> i have ಠ_ಠ, that's enough for me
22:37:38 <GreyKnight> (U+A66C cyrillic capital letter double monocular o)
22:37:43 <Bike> kmc: out of curiosity, what was the time lag between making the various internet protocols and getting somebody who knows security on board? i'm guessing like twenty years
22:38:34 <elliott> well I would guess that the kind of security knowledge and practice that is relevant to the internet just didn't exist before the protocols themselves
22:38:40 <GreyKnight> Guys I have important news: turns out there are in fact penises in Unicode: 𓂸𓂹𓂺
22:38:47 <olsner> oh, if you're currently in jail you're not allowed to get a swedish passport - shocking
22:39:12 <kmc> Bike: it's not really a sequential thing
22:39:30 <kmc> there's a continuous process of people inventing crazy new features and other people finding security problems with them
22:39:41 <GreyKnight> U+130B8 is your basic penis, while U+130B9 has some other object in view (?) and U+130BA is peeing I think
22:40:28 <olsner> ah, is that U+130BA PUBLIC URINATION?
22:40:40 <kmc> i like the information disclosure hole where you can tell what sites a user has visited by making some links and asking their color from javascript
22:41:05 <Fiora> Yeah, that one is brilliant
22:41:05 <kmc> even once browsers closed that hole, you can trick the user into disclosing it by making a fake CAPTCHA
22:41:18 <Bike> Also, I just googled "unicode urinate" and got about half a dozen relevant hanzi.
22:41:19 <GreyKnight> its name is just EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPH D053
22:41:26 <Fiora> then there's the gajillion hacks involving cached dat
22:41:40 <Fiora> I think you can do something like try to fetch something and time it and see if it's cached?
22:41:49 <kmc> GreyKnight: hahahaha
22:41:53 <kmc> thank you for telling me about this character
22:42:20 <GreyKnight> (full hieroglyphs chart: http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U13000.pdf )
22:42:41 <GreyKnight> sadly there is no COMBINING PENIS ABOVE, what you gonna do
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22:43:28 <kmc> we need some kind of combining character that makes other characters into combining characters
22:43:45 <Bike> determine a user's fetishes, for marketing purposes, by checking which hieroglyphs they have correct fonts for
22:44:19 <kmc> actually unicode should specify a way to embed arbitrary instructions for the layout engine
22:44:24 <kmc> as berkeley packet filter programs
22:44:58 <Bike> isn't that tex? (we need an anti-mathnerd exploit, stat)
22:45:21 <kmc> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/source/search?q=kRestrictedPorts
22:45:57 <Bike> christ, why don't they set up a whitelist instead if they're going to do that
22:47:08 <kmc> everyone knows the only port that still works on the internet is 443/tcp
22:47:54 <kmc> one day all protocols below HTTP will be treated as mysterious technology left by a long dead alien civilization
22:48:49 <olsner> might be hard to increase bandwidth if no-one knows how ethernet and ip and all that stuff works so they can make faster routers and switches
22:49:08 <GreyKnight> kmc: memerr.pdf is fascinating stuff, thanks
22:51:51 <zzo38> If you are interested in hieroglyphics you should have the fonts for all hieroglyphs anyways.
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22:52:35 <zzo38> I really think Unicode is making far more complicated than it should be, anyways.
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22:55:49 <GreyKnight> agree on the first point, would agree on the second if I could think of a better way ;-)
22:56:19 <zzo38> Why should there be fonts for only some of the hieroglyphics?
22:57:11 <kmc> unicode does have some unnecessary complexity
22:57:37 <kmc> but it also has a lot of unavoidable complexity thanks to its ambitious goal of representing all text in the world
22:57:56 <kmc> the difficulty of that task is often lost on english speaking programmers
22:58:04 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I'm not sure there *are* any such fonts?
22:58:16 <kmc> whose language is basically the simplest case and is privileged by historical factors
22:58:52 <GreyKnight> kmc, a quick glance at the pages and pages of CJK stuff should shock some sense into such people ;-)
22:59:56 <kmc> nah foreigners should just learn english if they want to use the internet
23:00:02 <zzo38> I don't care what language you speak but I think Unicode is doing everything the wrong way anyways.
23:00:06 <kmc> how dare they cause a little extra work for rich english-speaking people in the first world
23:01:00 <kmc> i can't find zzo38's viewpoint too offensive though because i can just substitute "HTTP" or "PDF" or "normal IRC clients" and it is still something he would say
23:01:01 <zzo38> Well, you should not be required to learn English well anyways; a little bit ought to be sufficient.
23:01:06 <kmc> bbl going to buy cheeses
23:02:37 <zzo38> Since if you are writing a document in some other language it should still be allowed, although what encoding you use is whatever you use. Such as you might make up the font, and then print out the document, using such fonts, then it is readable.
23:04:15 <zzo38> It isn't because I don't like other languages; actually, I think English is just as bad. But that is not the point! I mean they shouldn't overcomplicate things.
23:06:16 <GreyKnight> what if you're not printing? For example, people conversing on IRC using various characters
23:07:25 <fungot> GreyKnight: not in 1952. let handles it specially. monadzero was the perfect format for a timestamp.
23:08:18 <zzo38> I think computers should not need variable pitch font except for printing.
23:08:59 <pikhq> zzo38: Well,私為一思that君should be可to使変物s様this.
23:10:02 <Bike> how does unicode handle boustrephedon, anyway
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23:11:30 <GreyKnight> You can do a manual line break and override the bidi direction
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23:15:05 <zzo38> A better way to design a universal character set anyways, would be, instead you can tell many things about it from the bits of the codepoint, and from information in the font files, and from formatting codes in the document, and should not require built-in tables to figure out what everything is, and the program does not need to support all of them anyways.
23:15:30 <zzo38> Also, the way the Unicode decided what character to put in and how it is put in, is also bad, even ignoring the code numbers and other stuff.
23:16:28 <zzo38> UTF-8 is not such the bad encoding for the numbers, although any program that supports it should allow you to turn it off too, to use single-byte encoding.
23:17:52 <Lumpio-> But there are so many bits about a character
23:18:00 <Lumpio-> You would end up with ridiculously long numbers
23:18:13 <zzo38> That is just because of Unicode they put too many in.
23:18:34 <Lumpio-> Also Unicode wasn't designed in one go. You'd have to have lots of reserved codepoints for future expansion of each category
23:18:36 <GreyKnight> having an initial BOM in the document lets you specifically state that the file is UTF-8 (or any other UTF really), so an application could use that to switch between UTF-8 and bytes automatically
23:18:39 <Lumpio-> Which would make them even longer
23:19:00 <Lumpio-> zzo38: Oh, what would you have left out?
23:19:51 <GreyKnight> kmc: finished reading the paper. Slightly disappointed they didn't drop a computer into a nuclear reactor, but still good fun
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23:20:11 <zzo38> Lumpio-: I would leave out almost all of the character properties Unicode has.
23:20:59 <Lumpio-> I thought you meant characters themselves
23:24:36 <zzo38> Probably eight categories, meaning three bits, is more than enough. One means control characters.
23:25:21 <elliott> so now if a program wants to know something about a character that zzo38 omitted it has to have a big table again
23:25:55 <HackEgo> 458) <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's been hit by melancholy. <Phantom_Hoover> He didn't have any friends, fortunatel.y
23:26:05 <zzo38> But why should the program need to know about such things anyways? Some of the stuff needed to know can be stored with the fonts.
23:27:14 <zzo38> But, other things, depend on the program.
23:27:27 <GreyKnight> won't most of the fonts be keeping duplicate information then? :-/
23:28:17 <FireFly> Surely properties such as script direction and which codepoint is the uppercase version of this one is more relevant to the charset than a font?
23:28:49 <Bike> I thought typefaces were only supposed to be information about the graphical display. Stuff like whether a character is logically considered "whitespace" doesn't seem appropriate for a typeface.
23:29:01 <GreyKnight> shachaf: your duplicate ID is this 96f5e4c4598813b8ac7fdc4e2ce9bd03
23:29:01 <GreyKnight> how did I typo "unique" as "duplicate"?
23:29:02 <GreyKnight> even case-folding can be an "it's complicated" question in some writing systems
23:30:46 <GreyKnight> I say we have only one font full-stop, typefaces are for graphics design weenies B-)
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23:34:04 <zzo38> Information such as what is uppercase version, should be stored in commands in the file of whatever the program is working with; TeX is working in this way, so is TeXnicard.
23:34:38 <GreyKnight> related: http://achewood.com/index.php?date=07052007
23:35:50 <zzo38> Also notice that no matter what you include the character set, some information may be specific to some programs so they may not be complete anyways. For example, TeXnicard also need to know which letters can be used as roman numerals.
23:36:22 <zzo38> (In TeX this is hard-coded; in TeXnicard it can be set up by the user.)
23:50:47 <shachaf> `run allquotes | grep zzo38 | shuf
23:50:49 <HackEgo> 28) <zzo38> I am not on the moon. \ 333) <zzo38> Finally I found the wand of electric lightning now we can destroy any large object if it needs to be destroyed and is required to use a such a wand for that purpose. \ 815) <zzo38> Because, if it is all wrong, then I should fix it please \ 182) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Av
23:51:12 <HackEgo> 182) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
23:51:32 <shachaf> 182 should be editor to remove "zzo38: ".
23:55:58 <zzo38> It might be true that it would be better to remove "zzo38: " from that quotation, but I don't think you should just change everything like that.
23:56:14 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you ever flown an aeroplane?
23:57:01 <zzo38> shachaf: I have been on an aeroplane a few times in the past.
23:57:52 <GreyKnight> have you piloted one, I think he means
23:58:16 <zzo38> I thought that might be what you meant, but I wasn't sure.
23:58:20 <zzo38> No, I have not piloted one.
00:04:27 <zzo38> Somewhere I read about the algorithm used by PHP natsort, but it isn't actually very good, so I have made a new one which is based on that but with many improvements, and now it need a table to keep track of what character means: spaces, punctuation, ignored, uppercase, lowercase, digits, roman numerals, radix point, and a few other things. This table is set up by the user.
00:05:52 <zzo38> For example, "Chapter VIII" will be sorted before "Chapter IX"
00:07:10 <zzo38> And with the ordinary sorting it will do it wrong.
00:08:19 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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00:12:02 <zzo38> Each entry in the table also keep track of the position in the alphabet or value of digits (it doesn't care about the base they are in; any base is acceptable with no change to the algorithm); for example, if you want to use some character set with accented letters, even though their number differs but they want to be sort otherwise, it can be done.
00:12:23 <zzo38> But, whatever you want it to do you have to fill in the table with what you are using; it won't automatically know about accented letters and so on.
00:13:21 <zzo38> Since such things also depend on the character set (such as CP437, Latin-1, Unicode, etc) and even on the language; in some cases the letter with dot over is considered a different letter in the alphabet.
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00:15:31 <kmc> USA has formally recognized the Syrian National Coalition
00:18:09 <Bike> i haven't been keeping up with syria in a while, have the rebels held aleppo or w/e
00:18:50 <zzo38> I think byte 254 and 255 should be assigned in UTF-8 (Wikipedia doesn't mention what they are), even if not usable with Unicode. Since, it is possible even though is invalid Unicode they are still meaningful numbers.
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00:21:32 <kmc> basically no
00:21:32 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Syrian_Civil_War.svg
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00:21:50 <kmc> here green = al-Assad government, brown = opposition or Kurdish forces
00:21:55 <kmc> blue = "Ongoing conflict/unclear situation"
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00:22:43 <Bike> is it really a good idea to lump the kurds and fsa together
00:22:52 <kmc> probably not
00:23:08 <zzo38> So how does USA fit into this somehow?
00:23:08 <kmc> but it might be hard for observers to distinguish them
00:23:18 <kmc> beyond just "the people that the al-Assad forces are shooting at"
00:23:28 <zzo38> If you don't want to lump together, if you know the proper data is it possible for you to correct the map with the correct colors?
00:23:32 <Bike> zzo38: the US is subtly definitely not funneling in weapons through turkey, etc
00:24:01 <Bike> oh, and during the election romney wanted to nuke aleppo or whatever.
00:24:06 <kmc> did he really
00:24:13 <kmc> i don't remember t hat
00:24:13 <Bike> nah but you know
00:24:33 <Bike> america world police etc, there was lots of stuff about obama not being mean enough to assad or whatever
00:25:07 <zzo38> USA should stop damaging things that doesn't belong to them.
00:25:43 <Bike> i should really get to paying attention again, it was so surreal to watch a guy with a cheap rocket launcher blow up a tank in practically real time
00:25:49 <elliott> a statement we can all agree on
00:26:13 <Gregor> <kmc> blue = "Ongoing conflict/unclear situation" // I read this as "Ongoing conflict/nuclear situation"
00:26:18 <Gregor> I was like FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
00:26:23 <Bike> nah, the thing there is gas
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00:33:42 <kmc> haven't come into play yet, thankfully
00:35:03 * kmc contemplates whether he wants to debate the tricky line between neo-colonialism and humanitarian intervention with zzo38
00:35:24 <Bike> i wouldn't want to debate that with anybody, man
00:35:54 <elliott> kmc: can you think of someone better to debate it with than zzo
00:36:07 <elliott> someone who actually exists
00:36:21 <elliott> apparently itidus21 is on freenode right now
00:36:27 <elliott> maybe you should /msg him about it
00:36:38 <Bike> I thought that square thing said that there were only eight people on #esoteric.
00:37:15 <elliott> do you see itidus21 in the channel
00:37:42 <kmc> is there a sign on my house that says DEAD ITIDUS21 STORAGE?
00:38:04 <Bike> No, but if I don't exist, maybe people who do exist are invisible to me.
00:38:48 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know Jane St. apparently uses floating points for prices?
00:38:56 <kmc> that is common in finance :(
00:39:22 <shachaf> Apparently they've thought about it carefully and can defend it, or something.
00:39:35 <shachaf> I would've thought finance would be the place where it'd be uncommon.
00:39:43 <elliott> should just make currency actually be floating point
00:40:08 <kmc> the banks that are actually moving your money around use exact arithmetic or should anyway
00:40:12 <Bike> maybe when you deal with millions of dollars relative error is more the thing
00:40:22 <kmc> but the hedge funds that are just deciding what to trade can afford to be a bit sloppy
00:40:30 <kmc> of course they get sloppy in many other ways...
00:41:02 <kmc> anyway I think the unit price of basically every traded instrument will fit exactly within single precision floating point
00:41:05 <kmc> certainly double precision
00:41:11 <kmc> where you get into trouble would be calculations on that
00:41:22 <kmc> but if you are just trying to quickly get a signal on whether to trade or not
00:41:33 <kmc> the actual price at which you trade will probably be different anyway
00:41:34 <kmc> so it seems ok
00:42:57 <coppro> it occurs to me that the 'e' in 'bourgeois' is rather bourgeois
00:43:36 <kmc> shachaf: nelhage pointed out that *most* credit card numbers will fit in a JavaScript number
00:43:40 <kmc> but a few do not
00:45:05 <shachaf> Hmm, these numbers are meaningless and I probably got it off by an order of magnitude anyway.
00:46:26 <Fiora> I remember hearing about bugs involving, like, phone numbers stored as numbers
00:46:29 <Fiora> with area codes that start with 0
00:46:50 <Gregor> loooool *sobs quietly to self*
00:47:13 <Gregor> And of course, due to people serializing august as 08, we can do this:
00:47:23 <Gregor> Err, there's no JS bot here!
00:47:46 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
00:47:47 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
00:48:12 <shachaf> oerjan: zomg the 0o08 trick is broken!
00:48:16 <shachaf> Let's see if he logreads that.
00:49:26 <Bike> what's the o supposed to denote there
00:49:55 <zzo38> Perhaps telephone numbers could be stored using BCD it doesn't make sense to store them as binary numbers.
00:51:06 <Fiora> the problem is the leading zeroes, I think
00:51:26 <zzo38> Therefore the extra six values can be used for terminator and extension and * and #
00:51:55 <FreeFull> Phone numbers should be stored as strings
00:52:01 <FreeFull> Especially since you can have stuff like + in them
00:52:08 <zzo38> So that if your telephone number is 0123450 then you might have 0123450FFFFFFF
00:52:50 <zzo38> It is not only for telephone numbers, of course.
00:52:52 <shachaf> what if my phone number is 0123450FFFFFFF
00:53:54 <zzo38> If you are using the numbers on most telephones with "DEF" on the number 3 then you will push number 3, for example.
00:54:32 <shachaf> http://ocharles.org.uk/blog/posts/2012-12-11-24-day-of-hackage-ekg.html
00:54:38 <elliott> kmc: you should upgrade the esolang wiki for me, thanks
00:54:43 <kmc> phone numbers should be stored as XML documents along with a schema certifying that they conform to the relevant national dialing specification
00:54:57 <shachaf> elliott: I'll "upgrade" it for you, if you know what I mean.
00:55:06 <kmc> shachaf: cool!
00:55:13 <zzo38> Telephones already have a country code though.
00:56:17 <shachaf> The only country code that matters is +1, zzo38.
00:57:49 <zzo38> It depends whether, in your database, you need to have telephones of other countries, or not. Since depending what you are doing, it might or might not be necessary.
00:58:35 <elliott> Mosh: You have 2 detached Mosh sessions on this server, with PIDs:
00:58:42 <elliott> kmc: Am I meant to kill these manually or something?
00:58:49 <kmc> if they are truly orphaned
00:59:11 <kmc> they might just correspond to clients that have gone out to lunch but will return
00:59:43 <elliott> kmc: this UX upsets me and I blame you personally :(
01:01:03 <kmc> elliott: what would you rather it do?
01:01:32 <elliott> Something that doesn't involve me typing "kill <middle click> <middle click>".
01:01:32 <shachaf> kmc: What is elliott paying you for?
01:02:15 <ion> Middle clicking isn’t typing.
01:02:32 <kmc> elliott: maybe "mosh -wipe"
01:02:51 <kmc> you could join #mosh and ask keithw
01:03:09 <shachaf> ion: No, elliott really types "kill <middle click> <middle click>". It's a zsh feature; you wouldn't've heard about it.
01:03:35 <elliott> kmc: That's a lot of keystrokes when I could just bother you
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01:04:08 <shachaf> monqy: Please tell elliott about etiquit.
01:17:55 <ion> shachaf: Ah
01:18:15 <ion> butt -wipe
01:23:14 <shachaf> You know how dpkg gets really slow at "Reading database..." after a while?
01:24:36 <shachaf> Apparently you can dpkg --clear-avail (and then sync-available to rebuild the avail file thing.
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01:41:23 <kmc> woah whaaaaaat
01:41:32 <kmc> good to know
01:44:26 <zzo38> Is something like (*++x++) supposed to be OK in C? Probably not.
01:45:52 <shachaf> What would it mean, even if it was?
01:45:59 <fizzie> ++x++ is certainly not.
01:46:16 <shachaf> fizzie: I think that means (*++x)++
01:46:46 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it indeed does parse that way around.
01:47:12 <fizzie> Because *x++ is clearly *(x++); cf. the usual *dst++ = *src++ loop.
01:47:25 <fizzie> So *++x++ can't bind (*++x)++.
01:49:13 <fizzie> But the order of postfix-expression and unary-expression in the grammar means ++x++ parses as ++(x++) and that's just not right.
01:50:03 <fizzie> Incidentally, some have proposed * should've been a postfix operator too; and also a postfix notation in the declarator syntax.
01:50:46 <fizzie> Because while it's not obvious that int *x[10] is an array of ten pointers (instead of a pointer to an array of ten), it would've been had that been written int x[10]*.
01:51:12 <fizzie> Also you wouldn't need a->b for (*a).b because that would be written just a*.b and that's it.
01:51:31 <shachaf> a* means zero-or-more as, though.
01:52:04 <Arc_Koen> fizzie: "int *x[10]" can also be written "int* x[10]"
01:52:13 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: That's just confusing.
01:52:18 <zzo38> Or you can write "int*x[10]"
01:52:19 <Arc_Koen> in which case it's pretty clear it's an array of pointers to int
01:52:19 <Lumpio-> I *should* be like that but it's not
01:52:41 <zzo38> Or some people will put both spaces.
01:52:43 <fizzie> Arc_Koen: Then someone goes makes it int* x[10], y[10] and then nobody's happy.
01:52:53 <fizzie> "Sethi [Sethi 81] observed that many of the nested declarations and expressions would become simpler if the indirection operator had been taken as a postfix operator instead of prefix, but by then it was too late to change." (Dennis M. Ritchie, The Development of the C Language.)
01:53:10 <fizzie> If it was "too late" in 1981, though, it's far too late *now*.
01:53:11 <Lumpio-> The whole "you can mix pointers and non-pointers in the same declaration" thing is just weird
01:53:15 <Arc_Koen> would that mean x[10] is an array of pointers but y[10] isn't?
01:53:18 <zzo38> For making it less confused I will omit both spaces to make it clearly what I meant.
01:53:26 <Lumpio-> Although if it wasn't like that array notation wouldn't make sense
01:53:36 <Lumpio-> Or you'd have to do like "int[10] x"
01:53:39 <Arc_Koen> the way I looked at it I thought "int" was a type and "int*" was another type
01:53:50 <elliott> fizzie: clearly make - dereference
01:53:52 <Lumpio-> But you can mix types in a declaration
01:53:55 <Bike> c syntax is just confusing.
01:54:04 <Lumpio-> Bike: Most of it is pretty straightforward
01:54:10 <fizzie> "Declaration reflects use" and all that.
01:54:20 <fizzie> "int *x" means *x gives you an int. And all that fluff.
01:54:29 <elliott> doesn't int x[10] violate declaration mirrors use
01:54:31 <elliott> since x[10] is not a thing
01:54:43 <fizzie> The type of it is int.
01:54:51 <elliott> Lumpio-: well it's UB to actually evalutae it
01:54:54 <Bike> yes "straightforward" is how i'd characterize this conversation
01:55:13 <elliott> well it's not use if you can't actually use it
01:55:18 <Lumpio-> And it's as close as you can get to looking like the use and still having the length in it
01:55:18 <elliott> it should clearly be int array[last_valid_index];
01:55:30 <elliott> zero-length arrays happily cannot be used, so you don't need to declare them
01:55:43 <Lumpio-> Is a zero-length array even valid
01:56:03 <Lumpio-> Arc_Koen: Read the standard?
01:56:10 <Fiora> it's not standard C but it's a gcc extension I think
01:56:15 <fizzie> GCC has it as an extension, yes.
01:56:16 <zzo38> The reason I won't write "int *x" is because if you write something like "int *x=y" that means you are initializing the value of x not *x so if you write "int*x=y" then it is more clearly.
01:56:19 <Fiora> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Zero-Length.html
01:56:19 <Gregor> Most implementations allow zero-length arrays at least at the end of structures.
01:56:35 <fizzie> It's just the poor man's flexible array member.
01:56:41 <fizzie> (At least at the end of a structure.)
01:56:42 <shachaf> zzo38: What if you write int (*x)(int) = y; ?
01:56:48 <zzo38> Zero-length arrays should be allowed anywhere in a structure or union.
01:57:02 <pikhq> zzo38: How would that make sense?
01:57:06 <Lumpio-> I always thought the whole array type thing was a bit... redundant
01:57:15 <pikhq> Unless you can't place anything in those arrays.
01:57:18 <zzo38> pikhq: How does what make sense?
01:57:26 <pikhq> Mid-struct zero length array.
01:57:43 <shachaf> pikhq: It would just stay zero-length.
01:57:45 <Lumpio-> I mean, it's just a pointer. The only point I can see in using arrays is 1) stack allocation (this could just use a "stack allocate this pointer" syntax) and 2) sizeof() for static data
01:57:50 <zzo38> Well, it should be treated like any other array.
01:57:55 <pikhq> shachaf: That's all I can see making sense.
01:58:13 <zzo38> Of course you would usually only put at the end, but to be consistent would make sense to allow anywhere meaning the same things.
01:58:25 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Then you should be writing in B, perhaps, because in B "int x[10]" in fact does allocate ten ints and make x a pointer to the first.
01:58:32 <zzo38> I think C99 flexible arrays are not sensible.
01:58:38 <fizzie> Lumpio-: You can even x = y to reassign the pointer.
01:58:47 <shachaf> zzo38: struct { int x; int y[0]; int z; } would mean that y and z have the same address.
02:01:26 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it would. Like I said usually is not useful. However it can still be used in case you want it to have the same address, perhaps when being used with macros.
02:01:56 <zzo38> And in any case you can still read the size of the element of the array, even if there isn't any; this might also be used in a macro to identify types at compile-time.
02:02:36 <fizzie> shachaf: I do have a hard time to justify the syntax for a function that returns a pointer to a function, because the return type's argument list ends up so far. (I mean, int (*f(void))(float); declares f as a no-argument function that returns a pointer to a function returning int, taking float.)
02:03:45 <Arc_Koen> that would be so easy in ocaml
02:03:54 <Arc_Koen> well except you don't really have pointer
02:04:34 <Bike> that would be so easy in ocaml except it's impossible :P
02:04:53 <pikhq> shachaf: I'm assuming that int y[0] would still take space, actually. :P
02:04:59 <pikhq> shachaf: A char's worth of course.
02:05:18 <fizzie> And if you make f return a pointer to a function that takes a float, then returns a pointer to a function that takes a double and returns an int, it's int (*(f(void))(float))(double) and if you add a few more steps it's no longer just doable without some function pointer typedefs.
02:05:37 <fizzie> Uh, that's missing a * in front of f.
02:05:43 <fizzie> (It was already too much.)
02:06:23 <fizzie> cdecl> explain int (*(*f(void))(float))(double);
02:06:23 <fizzie> declare f as function (void) returning pointer to function (float) returning pointer to function (double) returning int
02:06:34 <fizzie> Fortunately there are tools. (Too bad so many cdecl's suck.)
02:07:25 <shachaf> fizzie: That type is hard to read but so is cdecl's output.
02:07:32 <shachaf> I'm not sure cdecl's output is easier.
02:08:21 <shachaf> f :: () -> Ptr ((Float) -> Ptr ((Double) -> Int))
02:11:16 <zzo38> If I want a function or something else which has such a type of a function I will just use typedef
02:11:29 <zzo38> Since it makes the syntax less confusing for me.
02:12:13 <pikhq> zzo38: You and everyone else.
02:12:47 <monqy> shachaf: your parenthesization
02:13:07 <shachaf> monqy: what about my parenthesisation
02:13:17 <shachaf> What's the problem with one-tuples?
02:13:29 <shachaf> You think my syntax will curry C functions for no reason?!
02:13:39 <shachaf> Is that what you expect, monqy?
02:13:50 <monqy> one-tuples..........................
02:14:04 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, other people, too.
02:15:05 <pikhq> shachaf: Why shouldn't we curry C functions? :P
02:15:16 <lambdabot> integerToBreakfast says: = (["Cornflakes", "Strawberry jam toast", "Grapefruit", "Cup of tea and a biscuit, gotta dash", "Bacon, eggs, toast, tomato and mushroom. You deserve it", "Waffles", "
02:15:17 <lambdabot> Porridge of some description", "Orange juice and muffins", "Apples, pears, mango and kiwi", "A selection of cold meats with crisp bread", "Headache pills and water", "Leftover pizza", "Leftover
02:15:45 <shachaf> I bet everyone wants to @forget that but no one wants to bother to get it into their IRC line.
02:17:39 <Fiora> "haskell curry" sounds like a spicy functional programming dish
02:18:13 <lambdabot> No quotes match. It can only be attributed to human error.
02:18:14 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I've seen penguins that can type better than that.
02:18:19 <Fiora> a vindaloo is like a type of spicy curry
02:18:23 <Fiora> you can have it with lots of things
02:18:37 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindaloo
02:18:42 <Gregor> But, like all Indian curries, it is inferior to the Thai alternatives.
02:18:46 <Fiora> " Traditional vindaloos do not include potatoes"
02:19:07 <Fiora> um, just reading wikipedia? XD
02:19:40 <pikhq> Hmm, I'm going to need to find a good Thai place around here and soon.
02:20:19 <shachaf> The curry society is a scam, Phantom___Hoover.
02:20:23 <Gregor> Mmmmmmm, Thai food. It is the best food.
02:20:34 * Fiora likes indian curries :< and japanese
02:20:38 <shachaf> Hmm, "vindaloo" looks like the devil.
02:20:42 <pikhq> It both tastes well and fnarfs well.
02:20:55 * shachaf has most likely never eaten vinadloo.
02:24:45 <Gregor> Fiora: Indian curries are alright. I've never had a Japanese curry I found to be at all good. But Thai curry... Thai curry is best curry.
02:25:19 <pikhq> Gregor: I suspect anosmia restricts the flavor experience of Indian and Japanese curries.
02:25:49 <Fiora> Phantom___Hoover: wait, really? XD
02:25:50 <pikhq> IIRC they're a bit bigger on aromatic stuff.
02:25:57 <Gregor> But it would for Thai curry too, wouldn't it?
02:26:10 <pikhq> Gregor: Thai also uses capsaicin to great effect.
02:26:30 <Phantom___Hoover> Fiora, at some point it was suggested that he say 'fnarf' instead of taste but he continues to confuse us all out of sheer malice.
02:26:51 <shachaf> According to two people in #esoteric!
02:27:11 <Gregor> Phantom___Hoover: I never used the word "taste" in this conversation.
02:27:23 <Gregor> As in, Thai curry IS better than Indian curry.
02:27:35 <Bike> isn't anosmia pretty rare?
02:28:01 <Gregor> Bike: Total anosmia is, partial anosmia isn't, and it's not total.
02:28:04 <Bike> "I've heard that people don't usually get anosmia"
02:29:09 <Fiora> anosmium: your sense of smell is very dense
02:29:40 <shachaf> Total ordering is rare, partial ordering isn't.
02:30:07 <Bike> mathematics in e' sounds difficult
02:32:40 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:33:00 <kmc> thai food does kick ass
02:33:50 <pikhq> And I need to find a good Thai place around here whilst I have reasons to go out to dinner.
02:36:36 <Fiora> thai food is evil though because I'm allergic to peanuts
02:37:51 <fizzie> It's good enough to die for, though, right?
02:38:03 <kmc> the best thai restaurant near me is ostensibly a japanese / sushi restaurant
02:38:11 <kmc> and the best szechuan restaurant near me is ostensibly a thai restaurant
02:39:07 <Fiora> I kind of, like, half-live on curry and sushi
02:39:52 <shachaf> Fiora: You only half-live?!
02:40:16 <Fiora> I am totally radioactive
02:41:23 <Fiora> there's a long-running gag elsewhere that I'm his genderswap
02:41:36 <Bike> Mine is a tortured existence. Stable, but missing much of my personal identity, and will to live.
02:41:39 <Bike> A corpse walking.
02:45:04 <Fiora> (this is partially because we have like, 2 hour long conversations about jargony things like astrophysics and microchips and assembly and complexity theory that like literally nobody else there understands)
02:45:13 <pikhq> Fiora: Are you female, or is the genderswap of Bike also male? :P
02:45:32 <Fiora> yes I am female? :p
02:46:16 <shachaf> I'm female, and so's my wife!
02:47:19 <Bike> If I was better at understanding Fiora I would have made a joke about being whatever uranium decays to instead.
02:48:38 <shachaf> Bike: Sometimes uranium decays into uranium.
02:48:50 * Fiora looks up decay chains
02:49:03 <Fiora> Thorium-234 (for U-238)
02:49:10 <Fiora> not counting spontaneous fission or double beta decay
02:49:18 <Bike> Damn, I don't think I know any thorium-related jokes.
02:49:52 <Fiora> and U-235 goes to... thorium 231. so similar I guess
02:50:27 <kmc> thorizzle for rizzle
02:50:55 <Fiora> bike wields a giant hammer
02:51:23 <shachaf> Th-234 decays into Pa-234 which decays into U-234
02:51:46 <Fiora> Nitya decays back into Fiora!
02:52:16 <Bike> I'm up for being in a BZ reaction with you.
02:53:28 <Fiora> is that a pickup line?
02:54:39 <Bike> Yes. We will spin around romantically making pretty colors for a while, maybe get hacked by Adamatzky, and eventually end up a boring brown-colored bromine goop.
02:57:39 <Fiora> I thought the end of the decay chain was like lead or something
02:58:35 <Bike> In addition to not being a nuclear physicist, I am also not a chemist. I'm multi-talented.
02:59:12 <shachaf> Fiora doesn't think of the future.
03:00:21 <shachaf> kmc: Are you going to run NixOS on your nonfree laptop?
03:00:23 <Bike> She only has a half-life, she's going to live fast and die... well just live slower, actually.
03:01:11 <shachaf> Do physicists have half-life crises?
03:01:52 <Fiora> shachaf: well okay there's the theoretically-possible decays that haven't been observed :<
03:01:58 <Fiora> but might happen over really long times
03:03:17 <Fiora> "observationally stable"~
03:03:41 <Bike> i'm imagining grad students staring at a block of lead to see if it decays
03:03:51 <Bike> sing-songy tone
03:04:02 <Fiora> it's a tilde, it means, like, tilde-ness
03:04:16 <kmc> shachaf: i might try
03:04:21 <Fiora> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=~
03:04:37 <Bike> Are you a prep?
03:04:42 <shachaf> kmc: You should try and tell me how it goes!
03:04:56 <Fiora> I don't think so...
03:05:13 <Bike> I don't know, but Fiora apparently is one.
03:05:15 <Bike> Or a literate.
03:08:05 * Fiora is reading about nuclei and isotopes again, damn you
03:08:31 <Bike> Can you make a nuclear clock reaction?
03:08:52 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_clock
03:08:59 <Bike> Except with something radioactive.
03:09:32 <Fiora> I think that's with nuclear resonances not decay?
03:10:04 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock
03:15:29 <kmc> shachaf: okay!
03:15:32 <kmc> also today I got a UPS
03:15:43 <kmc> and even managed to make it talk to Linux
03:15:56 <kmc> so now I can check whether the power supply at my house is 117 V or 118 V from ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD
03:18:25 <pikhq> How about the frequency?
03:18:52 <pikhq> Be nice to know if you suddenly get transported to eastern Japan.
03:19:29 <kmc> it doesn't have that :/
03:19:40 <kmc> the kill-a-watt does, but does not talk to the internet without extra hardware
03:19:49 <shachaf> kmc: By the way, Cmm is a good compromise between Core and assembly, if you ever have to read GHC-generated code.
03:19:59 <shachaf> The assembly is usually too awkward. :-(
03:20:01 <kmc> i've read a little of it
03:20:09 <kmc> also some unregisterized fvia-C code
03:20:11 <shachaf> I didn't think of it until luite mentioned it.
03:20:33 <shachaf> Maybe LLVM would be good too. I don't know.
03:26:04 <kmc> it's like assembly but there is more stuff to read
03:26:24 <kmc> you should write a GHC Haskell decompiler
03:33:28 * shachaf wonders whether there's much actual use of that.
03:36:36 <shachaf> Hmm, http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/HoleyMonoid/latest/doc/html/Data-HoleyMonoid.html
03:37:08 <shachaf> Oh, it makes you use (Category..). :-(
03:38:01 <Bike> Sgeo|web_: dinosaurs are cool.
03:38:05 <shachaf> That's not actually necessary, is it?
03:39:07 <zzo38> "It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it." - GK Chesterton
03:39:47 <Sgeo|web_> Factor does the whole mutable thing though :(
03:40:30 <Bike> "the whole mutable thing"
03:40:43 <monqy> the whole mutable thing
03:42:42 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: well, I have friends with whom I can joke about all religions
03:42:55 <Arc_Koen> (except maybe those religions we haven't heard of yet)
03:43:14 <Arc_Koen> well those friends happen to be atheist though
03:44:13 -!- Sgeo|web_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:45:53 <elliott> Bike: you've started putting things sgeo says in quotes and then sending them back to the channel there is no escape now
03:46:41 <Bike> oh god how did you know that was your color in my client
03:46:44 <Bike> what... what are you
03:50:08 <kmc> do you turn illusions for money
03:51:00 -!- Sgeo|web has joined.
03:55:40 <shachaf> Bike: Your client colours people?
03:55:50 <shachaf> Next you'll say it doesn't support Unicode.
03:56:11 <Bike> it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life
03:56:34 <elliott> `addquote <shachaf> Bike: Your client colours people? <Bike> it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life
03:56:37 <HackEgo> 865) <shachaf> Bike: Your client colours people? <Bike> it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life
03:56:50 <monqy> so do you live in vampire land or sick people land
03:57:00 <Bike> wannabe confederate land
03:57:19 <shachaf> elliott: Now your `addquoted me using British spelling!
03:57:26 <Bike> even though it wasn't actually part of the union at the time... it's a weird place
03:58:09 <monqy> you don't also do background colouring? that stuff's hideous
03:58:15 <monqy> a "do you?" in there
03:58:17 <Fiora> it's nice your client knows my favorite colors
03:58:56 <Bike> it only does background colors when somebody vomits up a ^C4,7 or what have you.
03:59:09 <monqy> what about this stuff
03:59:24 <Bike> yes, it does reverse video too. up to the latest 1988 graphics standards.
04:00:33 <Bike> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12780151/temp-behold.png take a trip, if you will, through another's eyes
04:01:00 <Bike> Ratpoison's sequel, yeah.
04:01:19 <elliott> you are using the wrong obscure language for your window manager
04:01:24 <Bike> yes yes xmonad
04:01:46 <Bike> i used to use the much less obscure lua one i forget the name of, but it's kind of nice being able to fuck up my config in a language I know instead
04:04:05 <zzo38> This computer will show the reverse-video, bold, but not the CTRL+C colors
04:04:54 <shachaf> zzo38: You'll have to acquire a better computer, then.
04:05:22 <zzo38> No, it is because I programmed it to show the reverse-video and the bold but not the CTRL+C colors on the IRC.
04:05:33 <zzo38> It isn't because I purchased it like this.
04:05:38 <kmc> more like, sex gonad
04:06:39 <Bike> I forget if you can compose them asdfghjhjkzxcv
04:06:59 <kmc> shachaf: i'm getting my laptop next tuesday, apparently
04:07:19 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
04:11:32 <zzo38> My computer using CTRL+V for reverse in IRC, and CTRL+R and CTRL+C are not recognized
04:13:14 <Bike> look at that, fiora, you're internet famous
04:13:42 <Fiora> ... oh, arc's quit message
04:13:59 <Fiora> I'm sorry, that joke was really really awful
04:15:06 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
04:16:11 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSsymmetricunire
05:08:07 <kmc> robots dot tee ex tee
05:13:42 <shachaf> http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/14met7/oleg_typesafe_formatted_io/c7f8un6
05:13:46 <shachaf> Are tricks like that worth it?
05:33:24 <asiekierka> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git;a=commit;h=743aa456c1834f76982af44e8b71d1a0b2a82e21
05:33:48 <shachaf> Linux is back to 286-only?
05:34:12 <Bike> cold, linus. cold
05:34:34 <coppro> zzo38: you should indicate that a half-piece and a full-piece cannot be contained in the same square
05:35:03 <asiekierka> did you really want me to run minix on my 386
05:36:02 <asiekierka> >FreeBSD 6.0 and newer no longer supports the original Intel 80386 CPU
05:36:18 <asiekierka> OpenBSD: >All CPU chips compatible with the Intel 80386 (i386) architecture, except for the 80386 itself, are supported:
05:36:36 -!- Sgeo|web has changed nick to Sgeo.
05:36:50 <asiekierka> Linus, wake up! No! This is the wrong way to go!
05:38:29 <zzo38> coppro: I fixed it now.
05:39:22 <zzo38> s/linus/the lions/
05:50:06 <Yonkie> by the way, was there any *NIX supporting 80286 CPU excluding Minix?
05:54:41 <Yonkie> oh yes, forgotten Microsoft UNIX :)
05:56:36 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
05:57:48 <zzo38> Is Tuesday longer than a piece of string? (I answered with another question)
05:58:41 <nortti> Yonkie: coherent used to support
05:59:09 <nortti> Yonkie: the latest version requires 386 but you should probably be able to find old versions
06:00:06 <pikhq> Well, Tyr's Day refers to the god of law. The law is known to have a long arm.
06:00:19 <pikhq> Strings are not generally very long.
06:00:29 <pikhq> So, Tuesday is longer than a piece of string.
06:05:23 <kmc> removing 425 lines from the entire kernel doesn't seem like that much of a gain
06:05:26 <zzo38> Well, I was comparing it to the speed of light.
06:05:28 <kmc> but maybe it is horrid code
06:06:19 <elliott> Merge branch 'x86-nuke386-for-linus' of git://git./linux/kernel/git/tip/tip
06:07:18 <kmc> "Most 386 processors have a bug where a POPAD can lock the machine even from user space."
06:07:21 <kmc> good times
06:07:48 <nortti> are there any *nixes other than minix that run in 32 bit protected mode and work in 386?
06:08:21 <kmc> yes, linux until very recently
06:08:39 <nortti> but they then decided to remove it :/
06:09:04 <kmc> yeah i ran minix on a 286
06:09:07 <kmc> 16 bit protected mode aww yeah
06:09:17 <nortti> and even netbsd "of course it runs netbsd" has dropped support
06:12:53 <zzo38> Science is not perfect. Religion is not perfect. Mathematics is perfect. Nevertheless, science is best we have. Do you agree?
06:13:20 <Bike> is there going to be a quiz :<
06:13:59 <Bike> That doesn't seem very mathematical.
06:14:14 <zzo38> I didn't say it was.
06:15:03 * elliott wonders how science is meant to be more "bester" than mathematics, though has no idea what you mean by "perfect" or "best"
06:15:13 <Bike> Ah, but I didn't say you said it was!
06:15:27 <zzo38> OK, I was just making sure.
06:15:37 <oklopol> the chess variants thing is written by zzo right?
06:15:49 <zzo38> oklopol: Some chess variants are.
06:17:01 <Yonkie> BTW, is there any esolangs mailing lists? all are seems to be dead
06:18:28 <zzo38> Yonkie: Now we have IRC and wiki, instead.
06:18:36 <oklopol> mathematics is perfect, so in particular better than anything not perfect, including science. science is best we have, thus we do not have mathematics.
06:19:49 <zzo38> No, that isn't quite what I meant.
06:21:40 <Sgeo> Huh. I think I actually understand Factor resumable exceptions better than CL resumable exceptions
06:21:41 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
06:24:06 <elliott> guys can you help me upgrade the fucking wiki
06:28:53 <Gracenotes> I used to write a lot of templates on wikipedia
06:29:22 <shachaf> I know someone who works at the Wikimedia foundation.
06:29:24 <Gracenotes> everything is a string. it's a bit scary.
06:29:37 <elliott> Gracenotes: i hear they are going to use lua instead
06:29:59 <oklopol> everything is a hashtable. it's a bit scary.
06:30:29 <shachaf> Use it in lua a real language?
06:30:52 <Gracenotes> heh. the hashtable part isn't the strangest bit of lua, it's how exposed the stack-based-ness is
06:31:47 <oklopol> i used it for some time but then i got so fucking annoyed with it asdfasdf
06:32:06 <elliott> oklopol: do you still actually like code
06:32:08 <oklopol> that stuff's horrible to read
06:32:08 <Gracenotes> I did last use it a few years ago. it's documented okayish
06:32:17 <oklopol> elliott: like code on which sense?
06:32:41 <oklopol> i program things with a friend at least once a week.
06:33:00 <elliott> did you ever finish that game
06:33:12 <oklopol> we finished a game, sort of
06:33:13 <elliott> you were going to code it in C# or something
06:33:17 <oklopol> and now we're working on another
06:33:55 <oklopol> well kinda finished, the graphics is horrible and for instance we had ai but were too lazy to put it in.
06:34:22 <oklopol> oh err we'll put it somewhere for grabs at some point.
06:34:39 <oklopol> it's a silly 3d multiplayer game where you jump around with your ball and shoot other balls
06:35:13 <oklopol> and you have a kind of ninja rope and a burst thingie which are so strong that you're basically just flying around all the time
06:35:53 <oklopol> and a couple of different guns.
06:35:53 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:36:14 <oklopol> and a level editor which is just lol and a single player game which is just silly
06:36:39 <Bike> do you feel welcomed?
06:36:46 <shachaf> elliott: What's the " and deployment" for?
06:37:21 <elliott> oklopol: is the multiplayer networked
06:37:36 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:37:49 <Gracenotes> Bike: Yes, I feel the metaphorical tentacles of this channel snugly wrapped around me.
06:38:10 <oklopol> it's not implemented very well.
06:38:41 <oklopol> we implemented single player stuff and then realized we want multiplayer and just kind of haxored it up.
06:39:10 <oklopol> but something like 5 players work okay at least :P
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06:39:22 <elliott> oerjan: YO HELP ME UPGRADE THE WIKI THANKS
06:39:36 <oklopol> also there's a global repository for servers, and anyone can join any game.
06:39:55 <oklopol> it wasn't really meant for distribution.
06:41:37 <oerjan> let me guess, it'll break /// again
06:42:38 <oerjan> i have that problem a lot to
06:42:58 <elliott> it's funny because i misinterpreted what you said
06:45:55 <oklopol> elliott: the ais were pretty awesome when you had like 2 of them, usually they wouldn't care about you but just fight each other
06:46:09 <oklopol> and they would shoot the ninja rope into the other guy and burst in random directions
06:46:21 <oklopol> and they would just spiral into the air shooting with machine guns or something
06:46:37 <oerjan> and now there's just no. 523 left
06:47:02 <oklopol> if you had more then 4 ais they would usually just kind of become a singularity of explosions in one of the spawns.
06:48:03 <oklopol> i don't even want to know what 523 ais would do
06:48:34 <elliott> oklopol: some call it "Feather"
06:49:12 <oklopol> for the new game, we currently have a something like 100 randomly generated houses with 100 randomly placed monsters and you shoot them with your guns.
06:51:21 <zzo38> I have now recorded the session 27 of Dungeons&Dragons game.
06:51:36 <oklopol> what channel will it be on
06:51:44 <oerjan> elliott: ooh, they invented feather but the resulting chaos retroactively destroyed it again, as well as all except one of them
06:52:17 <oklopol> i would prefer to watch it on my tv.
06:52:32 <oerjan> elliott: next question, what happened to the other 37 zzo's.
06:52:44 <oklopol> i tried to record, in text, a d&d game once. it was impossible.
06:52:52 <zzo38> oklopol: Then, connect your computer to your TV screen.
06:53:05 <zzo38> And then you can watch it on TV.
06:54:42 <elliott> oerjan: if i cry if you don't help me upgrade mw would that help
06:56:01 <oerjan> elliott: Not really, no.
06:56:42 <elliott> oerjan: it got you to use uppercase though!!!! it is working already
06:56:59 <oerjan> there's a specific reason for that.
06:57:25 <elliott> every time I see "specific" i think "south pacific" and i don't know why
06:57:45 <oerjan> it's because "south pacific" is where we all secretly want to be
06:58:07 <oerjan> sadly, there isn't enough land mass there to fit us all in
06:58:38 <oerjan> maybe a gigantic fleet...
06:59:09 <oerjan> maybe they had one and it sank and thus the BLOOP
07:00:21 <oerjan> i saw something about someone claiming it could be from breaking ice shelves
07:00:52 <oerjan> oh they added it to the wikipedia artible
07:04:06 <oerjan> maybe they're really from an alien spaceship from titan
07:04:17 <oerjan> (titan is pretty cold you know)
07:04:30 <oerjan> and it has sirens, i think
07:04:35 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_AE
07:07:21 <oerjan> 21:17:20: <elliott> what if someone exploits the security bugs in the current version
07:07:24 <oerjan> 21:17:25: <elliott> and deletes all the brainfuck derivatives
07:07:31 <oerjan> at least we would have a main suspect handy.
07:31:42 <elliott> oh this is like the last one ever
07:32:07 <oerjan> <shachaf> Let's see if he logreads that. <-- NOT A CHANCE
07:32:36 <shachaf> oerjan: What did you logread?
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07:33:01 <Deewiant> Re. 12/12/12 https://twitter.com/GSElevator/status/278683602848448513
07:34:35 <oerjan> > 0o08 -- REMEMBER ON THIS
07:34:37 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
07:34:37 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
07:35:02 <zzo38> If you need to declare a special pointer in a C program, what would be the way? One idea would be volatile char x[1]; as a global variable. Maybe "volatile" is not needed but if you are using it only as the pointer and not the value I don't know what optimization it would do. I don't know if there is better way, though.
07:35:38 <zzo38> oklopol: Why is it difficult to record a D&D game once with text?
07:36:09 <shachaf> oerjan: Do you hate me now?
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07:39:30 <oerjan> MY HATE FOR YOU HAS NOT BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGED BY THIS
07:40:12 <oerjan> wasn't there something you could do with that even in vanilla ghci
07:55:32 <olsner> looks a bit like that lexer bug in PHP
07:56:16 <kmc> i enjoyed Titan A.E. as a kid but I have been informed that it is actually mega shitty
07:57:31 <oerjan> olsner: it's completely according to the haskell standard
07:57:55 <zzo38> It looks fine to me, even though strange.
07:58:06 <kmc> > "foo\ \bar" -- did you know this is in the haskell standard?
07:58:15 <oerjan> now whether it makes _sense_ to have the greedy lexing rule be more important than not cutting off in the middle of alphanumerics is a different matter.
07:58:35 <Bike> kmc: what the hell?
07:58:54 <oerjan> kmc: yes. i've used it for multiline strings.
07:58:58 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
07:58:58 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
07:59:09 <Bike> that's... egh.
07:59:31 <oerjan> Bike: the worst part is you _still_ have to write explicit \n's
08:00:00 <kmc> it's useful for a multi-line string that's indented within the source
08:00:13 <zzo38> At least I think it makes sense for 0o08 to mean 0o0 8 even though it doesn't mean you should write a program like that! (Unless you are doing something strange like polyglots or whatever)
08:00:26 <olsner> alright, so the octal constant just ends before the 8 ... I thought there had to be something lexed twice there
08:00:28 <Deewiant> oerjan: I think it's good that that is available, but having something with implicit \n's would of course be useful
08:00:58 <Deewiant> As in I'd rather have only that than only the alternative
08:01:07 <zzo38> Can you use TH quasiquotes?
08:01:15 <olsner> it would probably be helpful to make this an error (invalid octal literal?) instead of treating it as 0 8
08:01:30 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, there's a library that makes [s|...|] work for that
08:02:28 <oerjan> olsner: i think a rule that haskell lexing cannot stop between adjacent alphanumerics would have been an improvement
08:02:30 <zzo38> olsner: Maybe to you it is. To me, either way should be OK.
08:02:34 <elliott> kmc: that's less surprising than \&
08:03:26 <olsner> or... haskell could just use radixals instead
08:05:57 <elliott> hey oerjan. should i sleep.
08:06:19 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you hate golf
08:06:40 <oerjan> shachaf: TOO MANY HOLES
08:06:58 <oerjan> elliott: of course not, it's daytime!
08:07:15 * oerjan all sensible normal opinion today
08:07:23 <kmc> shachaf: the issue with HTTP POST to a SMTP server is even more subtle than the IRC spambot thing
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08:07:51 <elliott> oerjan: you mean it's very very late night
08:08:30 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> Do physicists have half-life crises?
08:08:33 <elliott> *Main> (not |- (length :: [()] -> Int) |- (subtract 1 :: Int -> Int) |- id) [(),()]
08:08:35 <HackEgo> 866) <shachaf> Do physicists have half-life crises?
08:08:36 <elliott> <interactive>:50:33: Couldn't match type 'True with 'False
08:08:40 <kmc> well, let's say GET instead
08:08:41 <olsner> elliott: eat breakfast and it will be morning
08:09:08 <elliott> olsner: but i'll still be tired
08:09:12 <kmc> if i make you visit http://mail.example.com:25/<script>alert('hi');</script>
08:09:14 <zzo38> SMTP should require HELO at first though
08:09:23 <kmc> the server's error message will echo that HTML
08:09:32 <kmc> and your browser will interpret it as a HTTP/0.9 headerless response
08:09:38 <kmc> and assume a content type of text/html
08:09:51 <kmc> and it has access to *.example.com cookies and whatever
08:09:52 <zzo38> It shouldn't treat it as a headerless response unless the request is headerless.
08:10:02 <kmc> zzo38: apparently it does, though
08:10:08 <kmc> i just read about this in _The Tangled Web_
08:10:18 <shachaf> Oh, should I read that book?
08:10:20 <zzo38> Perhaps it does, but, it shouldn't.
08:10:28 <kmc> the part i have read so far is very good
08:10:29 <shachaf> I'm not sure which IRC spambot thing you mean.
08:10:45 <kmc> i learned a lot and I really enjoy the author's tone of "wheeee the web is crazy and we are all screwed"
08:10:54 <kmc> oh, maybe you were not here when I was discussing it earlier
08:11:01 <kmc> Somebody set up a web page with a form that would POST-on-load to http://irc.freenode.org:6667 . The form data contained IRC commands to log in, join a bunch of channels, and spam them with links to said page.
08:11:11 <zzo38> However there is also the opposite problem, which the Google server returns headers even though the request is headerless.
08:11:12 <shachaf> http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/postxss/ was good.
08:11:23 <kmc> as a result Freenode's IRCd now interprets "POST" as an alias for QUIT
08:11:46 <kmc> also TIL that chrome has a port number blacklist and simply won't let you do HTTP to port 6667 anymore
08:11:55 <zzo38> Yes it is the problem with HTTP and HTML and all that stuff causes a lot of problem like that.
08:12:10 <kmc> i also learned about another hilarious attack, which is:
08:12:12 <zzo38> Therefore, avoid it if you have the alternatives.
08:12:48 <kmc> you know that thing where sites can tell what other sites you have visited, by making links and inspecting the color of those links?
08:13:01 <shachaf> (There are lots of other ways too.)
08:13:02 <kmc> various browsers disabled that inspection capability as a result
08:13:05 <oerjan> after the internet apocalypse, only zzo38's gopher server will be up
08:13:14 <kmc> you can still trick the user into revealing the information
08:13:31 <shachaf> You can look at cache timing, you can open iframes and see if they load successfully or not.
08:13:39 <kmc> by building a fake CAPTCHA that will look different depending on the link colors
08:13:45 <shachaf> Into revealing link color information?
08:13:48 <zzo38> kmc: When looking at about:config in Firefox at FreeGeek I did see those things and realize that must be why.
08:13:59 <kmc> i like this exploit because it involves covertly exfiltrating data through the USER'S OWN BRAIN!!
08:14:19 <shachaf> Seems like that particular information is very difficult to keep hidden.
08:14:23 <zzo38> oerjan: I am not the only one who has a gopher server.
08:14:34 <zzo38> There are some others, too.
08:14:35 <shachaf> But that's a funny attack.
08:15:29 <shachaf> I should read that book. Most things I've read from him have been good.
08:15:29 <elliott> insame2 :: (TypeEq x x' b, TypeEq y y' b', b `Implies` b') => (x -> y) -> Maybe (x' -> y')
08:15:33 <kmc> i think security is an inherently funny field, because exploits and jokes have a lot of structural similarities
08:15:37 <elliott> tempted to tweak one of the letters of this function's name
08:16:53 <kmc> a good exploit does something clever and unexpected, in a way that mixes levels or combines things that weren't meant to be used together, and is transgressive and mischeivous
08:17:03 <kmc> these are all building blocks of humor as well :)
08:17:15 <zzo38> I have said before! HTTPS is not really so secure! SSH is secure and should be used to send money by internet, and it should be done by connecting to your bank account to split your account; this way is more secure nobody can steal your credit card numbers or whatever.
08:18:01 <kmc> anyway i will sleep now
08:18:02 <kmc> good night all
08:18:06 <zzo38> kmc: Well, it is also a way of hacking, whether or not you are trying to exploit any security.
08:18:26 <zzo38> But hackers say funny thing too. I consider Feynman was hacker, too.
08:18:48 <oerjan> humor is hacking of the human mind
08:19:05 <elliott> ((length :: [()] -> Int) |- id) :: (TypeEq [()] y' b, TypeEq Int y' b') => y' -> y'
08:19:05 <zzo38> oerjan: O, OK, then. Now it is understandable.
08:19:08 <elliott> that's not what I wanted :(
08:19:14 <zzo38> Do you consider Feynman was hacker?
08:19:26 <elliott> I need to make it even more general.
08:19:49 <elliott> oh, I guess that makes sense
08:21:53 <oerjan> i haven't paid much attention to feynman, a couple of anecdotes maybe.
08:22:22 <oerjan> he seemed to hack brazil's education system all right
08:23:17 <elliott> *Main> test (123::Integer)
08:23:45 <elliott> ps test :: (TypeEq [String] x' b, TypeEq [()] x' b1, TypeEq Integer x' b2) => x' -> String
08:24:07 <elliott> it's sorry it doesn't know what type you are
08:24:41 <elliott> monqy: the definition: http://sprunge.us/hMbb
08:24:57 <monqy> whats all this stuff
08:25:15 <monqy> is it typeclass hacks............
08:25:20 <monqy> elliott.........................
08:25:20 <elliott> (|-) :: (TypeEq x x' b, TypeEq y y' b') => (x -> y) -> (x' -> y') -> x' -> y'
08:25:20 <elliott> f |- g = fromMaybe g (insame f)
08:26:04 <elliott> Deewiant: 08:15:36 <elliott> tempted to tweak one of the letters of this function's name
08:26:19 <elliott> monqy: an updated version of oleg's TypeEq hack
08:26:28 <elliott> are you sure you want to see it
08:26:32 <elliott> class TypeEq x y (b :: Bool) | x y -> b where same :: p x -> Maybe (p y)
08:26:32 <elliott> instance (b ~ True) => TypeEq x x b where same = Just
08:26:32 <elliott> instance (b ~ False) => TypeEq x y b where same = const Nothing
08:26:48 <elliott> (same is just witness to (possible) Leibniz equality)
08:26:50 <oerjan> elliott now updates oleg, be very afraid
08:27:20 <elliott> monqy: the cool thing is this (|-) works both for mapping any type to a result of a certain type and for mapping any type to itself
08:27:30 <elliott> depending on whether you use (const x) or id as the last one
08:29:54 <elliott> oerjan: I get to use constraint kinds!!!
08:31:25 <monqy> man this sure is a hack
08:31:44 <monqy> yeah it's def. on the beautiful side
08:31:51 <monqy> you know what isn't
08:32:06 <elliott> are you using printf or something
08:32:40 <elliott> insame :: (TypeEq x x' b, TypeEq y y' b') => (x -> y) -> Maybe (x' -> y')
08:32:40 <elliott> insame f = contrasame f >>= same
08:32:40 <oerjan> elliott: i am just waiting for someone to discover that ghc now accidentally can support full dependent typing, as long as you do it in the type system.
08:32:47 <elliott> i'm sure you can figure out what contrasame is
08:32:53 <monqy> have you used printf
08:33:05 <elliott> i wrote my own type-safe printf
08:33:13 <elliott> turns out oleg has done it better
08:34:20 <elliott> okay now i've gotten to the bit i wanted to and have utterly confused myself
08:35:04 <elliott> maybe this actually means you don't need Data at all? and can just use Foldable/Traversable
08:35:08 <elliott> type-generic version of those
08:35:45 <FreeFull> self-confusion is the most confusing confusion
08:36:04 <elliott> monqy: i have no idea what i'm doing. does that mean i should sleep
08:37:12 <FreeFull> elliott: I'm not monqy, but maybe
08:37:25 <FreeFull> If it's still just as confusing in the morning, you're out of luck
08:37:28 <monqy> elliott: what are you doing
08:40:39 <elliott> Overlapping instances for TypeEq y x b'0 arising from a use of `f'
08:40:43 <elliott> monqy: overlapping instances
08:41:01 <monqy> are x and y both equal and nonequal
08:41:46 <elliott> gmap :: (forall z b. (TypeEq x z b) => z -> z) -> (x,y) -> (x,y)
08:42:04 <elliott> it doesn't work when you use it
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08:45:48 <zzo38> I tried something with making a Fourier transform on two signals, and then using the real part of the result of one and the imaginary part of the result of the other, and then make the inverse Fourier transform from that.
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08:47:20 <elliott> *Main> gmap blah (1::Int, ())
08:47:20 <elliott> <interactive>:154:6: Overlapping instances for TypeEq Int z b0
08:47:26 <FreeFull> Imaginary part is the phase, right?
08:47:37 <shachaf> elliott is channeling the spam
08:47:49 <HackEgo> 520) <elliott_> now that we've cleared that up let us hug fungot = <fungot> elliott_: let's not start that again."
08:47:50 <HackEgo> 514) <Phantom_Hoover> I'm sacrificing the animals, then I'm going to bed.
08:47:50 <HackEgo> 652) <itidus22> if the halting problem was solved, as a placebo.. would it benefit people?
08:47:50 <HackEgo> 28) <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
08:47:50 <HackEgo> 411) <NihilistDandy> MY CONTINUITY <NihilistDandy> MY FANFICTION <NihilistDandy> RUINED
08:48:18 <shachaf> Hmm, all of those are too good to delete.
08:48:18 <zzo38> FreeFull: No, I don't think so. Amplitude/phase are the other way to specify the numbers than real/imaginary, I think
08:48:30 <zzo38> shachaf: Then don't delete those ones.
08:48:41 <Snowyowl> Some of those make a degree of sense when read consecutively like that.
08:48:50 <FreeFull> zzo38: Oh, I think I know now what it's like
08:48:58 <monqy> elliott: whats blah
08:48:59 <Snowyowl> apparently NihilistDandy was writing fanfic of zzo38
08:49:26 <zzo38> I don't know how to describe it but if you have Csound you will be able to use this Csound plugin so you can know by yourself what it is sounding like.
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08:49:47 <shachaf> zzo38: Why would anyone think you're on the moon?
08:50:17 <zzo38> shachaf: The quotation is out of context. I do not remember.
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09:40:10 <HackEgo> 144) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
09:40:10 <HackEgo> 427) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace
09:40:11 <HackEgo> 862) [after discussing lens] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
09:40:11 <HackEgo> 148) <benuphoenix> the pregnant ones are usually taken already.
09:40:11 <HackEgo> 139) <fungot> alise: so parrot was based around gcc?
09:41:14 <oerjan> what does that even mean
09:42:01 <HackEgo> *poof* <benuphoenix> the pregnant ones are usually taken already.
09:42:31 <HackEgo> 135) <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
09:42:31 <HackEgo> 251) <zzo38> Why do you want to have sex in everything? I don't want.
09:42:31 <HackEgo> 692) <monqy> kallisti: by ordered multiset did you mean: list??????
09:42:32 <HackEgo> 847) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
09:42:32 <HackEgo> 375) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET
09:43:46 <oerjan> SORRY CONFLICT OF INTEREST
09:43:48 <zzo38> You should not necessarily think you have to delete any of one, I guess.
09:44:28 <HackEgo> 41) <Aftran> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them?
09:44:28 <HackEgo> 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
09:44:28 <HackEgo> 797) <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday.
09:44:29 <HackEgo> 682) <oklopol> i think i'll just take the usual route and go do post doc research somewhere far away and never come back and become a drug lord and kill myself
09:44:31 <HackEgo> 262) <cpressey> addquoting yourself? isn't that like commenting on your own facebook status? <Gregor> Yup, but I'm JUST THAT AWESOME.
09:45:33 <oerjan> i think those count as vintage
09:45:50 <monqy> how about 262 then
09:45:59 <shachaf> This is why we need to eliminate quote ordering.
09:46:09 <fizzie> 3 has broken spacing, too.
09:46:18 <monqy> 3 is definitely bad though yes
09:46:27 <shachaf> fizzie makes a good point.
09:46:35 <HackEgo> *poof* <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop
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10:09:41 <fizzie> I keep not noticing the disapparation of fungot.
10:09:41 <fungot> fizzie: others don't care, i'm not really sure i like
10:11:15 <shachaf> fungot: don't go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10:11:16 <fungot> shachaf: and use lower case pic. fnord/ img/ tmp/ skreen.jpg really has readable text? did you reload packages.scm?
10:11:30 <HackEgo> 548) <elliott> Second Life is like... real life, modelled by people who've READ about real life, you know, in books.
10:11:31 <HackEgo> 272) <ZOMGMODULES> elliott: parents who put just "Chris" on a birth certificate are... like parents who put just "Bob" on a birth certificate.
10:11:32 <HackEgo> 210) [on Walter Bright] <nddrylliog> I went to chat with him after his talk at the ELC and he was like "hum, right - humans. How do they work again... oh, hi!"
10:11:32 <HackEgo> 751) <olsner> is tswett Warrigal?
10:11:32 <HackEgo> 43) <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
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10:21:07 <fungot> FireFly: i suppose that gives it a nice fnord.
10:21:21 <oerjan> and FireFly was enlightened
10:21:47 <shachaf> The toenails, on the other hand, never grow at all.
10:24:17 <oerjan> indeed, the feet just shrink
10:25:08 <shachaf> So GHC stores the stack pointer in %rbp.
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11:43:50 <Sgeo> elliott, 5 years ago: "You've convinced me. I'm going to learn Factor."
11:47:38 <Sgeo> [04:40] <HackEgo> 148) <benuphoenix> the pregnant ones are usually taken already.
11:47:54 <Sgeo> benuphoenix was responding to something I said, if that little bit of extra context helps
11:48:40 <HackEgo> 143) <alise> Why do you use random acronyms you know we don't know the expansions of? <pikhq> alise: TLAAW
11:48:40 <HackEgo> 517) <fungot> elliott_: it's a machine that looks like you!
11:48:40 <HackEgo> 52) <Madelon> both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. <Madelon> kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in?
11:48:41 <HackEgo> 101) <Bubo> ooh a test to see your procrastination hotspots <Bubo> ill do it later
11:48:41 <HackEgo> 247) <oklopol> zzo38: you missed the point. the point was way stupider than that.
11:49:10 <HackEgo> *poof* <Bubo> ooh a test to see your procrastination hotspots <Bubo> ill do it later
12:09:50 <fizzie> You don't want to run out of them, after all.
12:10:32 <HackEgo> 62) <oklopol> Warrigal: what do you mean by 21?
12:10:33 <HackEgo> 774) <pikhq> The world would be a much classier place if the world was full of Gregors. <Phantom_Hoover> True, but how many of them are on fire?
12:10:33 <HackEgo> 177) <Vorpal> (had real world issues) <Vorpal> (to deal with) <ehird> Vorpal's pregnant. <Vorpal> yes
12:10:34 <HackEgo> 365) <coppro> elliott: actually, it's worse right now, I'm in the USA <coppro> where the solution to counterfeiting problems is "add more ink" <coppro> eventually all US bills will just be solid green
12:10:34 <HackEgo> 200) <asiekierka> GCC: -Os -O2 -O3 gives a 4x improvment
12:11:33 <fizzie> fungot: If your "fnord" URI up there was talking about http://zem.fi/~fis/skreen.jpg I don't think it's all that readable.
12:11:33 <fungot> fizzie: i think it can be defined as a foreign fnord fnord? :d did i leave any channel but esoteric?
12:11:52 <fizzie> (Then again, I did use to read it, so...)
12:12:34 <fizzie> I suppose if you go by the literal definition of "able to be read".
12:12:50 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of color misalignment there.
12:14:53 <Deewiant> Just zoom out until it doesn't matter.
12:15:48 <fizzie> I think I ran the CRT at 1600x1200 and that was perhaps slightly too high for the physical limits.
12:16:12 <fizzie> It's also from the corner of the screen, the middle part was perhaps a bit more RGB-aligned.
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12:37:09 <FireFly> fungot: what is a foreign fnord fnord?
12:37:10 <fungot> FireFly: i dont think i make up the syntax to do anything; markup commands are written out; for instance, i don't follow
12:37:38 <fungot> FireFly: he even left here with the 0830 bus to go there implied changing step 1 to ' go.') the interesting question is how much work is already there for the different phases so i know what you mean
12:39:50 <fizzie> fungot: It's good someone does.
12:39:54 <fungot> fizzie: what's the inverse of a function, then evaluate ' toosmall and return the one that is used
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13:20:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:20:38 <ais523> but wanted to make sure
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13:24:27 <fizzie> I just restamarted it, it gets reset to IRC then since styles aren't persistent.
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13:24:54 <fizzie> fungot: You really should save at least that ^ignore list.
13:24:54 <fungot> fizzie: there is no binding named push! or pop! specified in any of the pins and it was a particular type really is of that opinion.
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13:25:48 <nortti> fungot: I can't understan your sentence
13:25:49 <fungot> nortti: unfortunately that also depends on the axiom of choice can't be computed) save work for them parttime stuff
13:28:06 <FireFly> fungot: how are you this fine day?
13:28:07 <fungot> FireFly: could you give a url for the odbc data manager? i can't seem to
13:28:21 <fungot> FireFly: ( cons http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ 2081
13:28:57 <fungot> FireFly: its been said that magic is at http://magic.xmog.com/ darcs/ s48-grovel/. :)
13:29:03 <fungot> FireFly: yow! perhaps it's that big lisp conference in amsterdam!
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13:31:05 <fungot> nortti: it just stopped raining here. tweak it later. i did it with hannah arendt?"
13:43:47 <fizzie> fungot: Raining? If anything, it'd be snowing.
13:43:48 <fungot> fizzie: maybe just ' cpx' mayo!! i want a divorce!!... you're not clint eastwood!!
13:48:00 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever claimed to be, either. :/
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13:49:07 <FireFly> Just give fungot some 'cpx' mayo and hopefully they'll be fine
13:49:07 <fungot> FireFly: i should have it repeat at the end to enqueue, and remove duplicates in the list. directly assigning the last cdr is an a-list.
13:49:35 <FireFly> fungot: you really like lisp, don't you?
13:49:35 <fungot> FireFly: indeed it does
13:49:54 <FireFly> fungot: please try not to be sentinent
13:49:55 <fungot> FireFly: maybe if you click on values to show those in turn... i'm going to have to work out
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14:00:54 <fizzie> Sentient and "working out": not a good combination.
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15:24:34 * ais523 reads comment from disgruntled author on Slashdot who claims they're getting no royalties from the book because, despite getting several comments from readers about it, the publishers claim it has negative sales
15:24:45 <ais523> I guess it's not significantly harder to believe than zero sales…
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15:29:51 <oklopol> so people sold copies of the book to the publisher?
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15:32:52 <nortti> ``[oblig]: Handy fact: "miles-per-gallon" (Imperial gallons mind you) is equivalent to "furlongs-per-pint" :)''
15:32:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `[oblig]:: not found
15:33:20 <Arc_Koen> imagine someone forgot to put a lock on the place where books are stored
15:33:28 <Arc_Koen> so free copies are running around
15:33:49 <Arc_Koen> and the publisher knows that free copies running around are very bad for business, so he wants them bak
15:46:00 <ais523> the author thought it was the evolution of creative accounting
15:46:33 <ais523> like, the way that the amount of water content in meat in the UK is calculated by measuring it, then subtracting a constant and rounding in a particular way
15:46:36 <ais523> which means it can go negative sometimes
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17:03:09 <elliott> `run hg diff -c 1040 | patch -R
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17:38:58 <GreyKnight> ais523: so I was thinking, Feather's # can be implemented by giving method-objects a member named "#" which holds the lambda
17:41:14 <GreyKnight> if you apply an object foo to bar (foo bar) then if bar isn't defined do index(foo, "bar"), otherwise do apply(index(foo, "#"), bar)
17:41:41 <GreyKnight> numeric literals are just names and can be rebound, but initially have the "obvious" object with arithmetic methods etc. The initial # of a number object is its Church representation
17:42:25 <GreyKnight> e.g. (2 #) yields the lambda (\f\x.f (f x))
17:42:58 <GreyKnight> and errrr I guess if I can't find a meaningful # for some object I'll just give it (\x.x)
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17:46:06 <GreyKnight> e.g. the host evaluator I've got written here passes in an initially bound name "<SYS>" which holds a few useful methods like (<SYS> call/cc)
17:46:07 <GreyKnight> what should (<SYS> #) yield?? I am going with [x | x] :-)
17:46:07 <GreyKnight> okay ais523 is AFK, but hopefully he'll logread later and his head will asplode
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17:48:05 <ais523> this isn't head-exploding stuff, I workeed that much out ages ago
17:54:57 <fizzie> Perhaps it's an indirect head-exploder, meant to just make you start thinking about Feather again.
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17:57:28 <GreyKnight> ais523: IIUC a name is only ever bound to an object? i.e. (foo) never directly evaluates to a lambda, only the indexed reference (foo #) does
17:57:43 <ais523> GreyKnight: err, lambdas are objects
17:57:51 <ais523> err, I mean, objects are lambdas
17:58:00 <ais523> a name is never bound to anything, really
17:59:17 <GreyKnight> oh right, the "object" (foo) is basically a lambda which uses its argument as an index
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19:39:47 <elliott> Could not deduce ((?) y ts ctx1) arising from a use of `spec'
19:39:47 <elliott> from the context ((??) ((':) * x ((':) * y ('[] *))) ts ctx2)
19:39:47 <elliott> bound by the type signature for
19:39:47 <elliott> gmap :: (??) ((':) * x ((':) * y ('[] *))) ts ctx2 =>
19:39:49 <elliott> (forall z. Spec ts z z) -> (x, y) -> (x, y)
19:39:52 <elliott> oerjan: I think I might be doing something wrong.
19:40:03 <kmc> what the fuck
19:40:08 <fungot> GreyKnight: whats gnome-vfs?) i had nothing to do
19:40:32 <GreyKnight> Fungot is making more sense than elliott right now :v
19:40:44 <elliott> class ctx => (??) (xs :: [*]) (ts :: [*]) ctx | xs ts -> ctx
19:40:44 <elliott> instance ((x ? ts) ctx, (xs ?? ts) ctx') => ((x ': xs) ?? ts) ((x ? ts) ctx, ctx')
19:40:49 <elliott> I... guess that doesn't really help explain.
19:42:44 <GreyKnight> Hmm Fungot doesn't trigger a witticism? Or did he go on throttle?
19:43:15 <GreyKnight> Come back fungot, you're the most sensible person here!
19:43:16 <fungot> GreyKnight: ( it's also the whole impediment that disables him from being able to click ' ok' for me :) you mean to read the specs closely to the current directory
19:44:16 <elliott> kmc: I don't even know what I'm doing any more.
19:44:24 <GreyKnight> For a minute there I thought I might have to try and comprehend that Haskell spew
19:45:17 <kmc> that's not haskell
19:45:20 <zzo38> Probably due to case-sensitive?
19:45:58 <elliott> I "only" have 13 extensions on.
19:46:03 <elliott> I probably don't even need all of them.
19:46:05 <kmc> craaaaazy extensions
19:46:38 <nortti> "I, Leor Zolman, hereby release all rights to BDS C (all binary and source code modules, including compiler, linker, library sources, utilities, and all documentation) into the Public Domain. Anyone is free to download, use, copy, modify, sell, fold, spindle or mutilate any part of this package forever more. If, however, anyone ever translates it to BASIC, FORTRAN or C#, please don't tell me."
19:48:04 <nortti> z80/8080 c compiler that implements subset of k&r c
19:48:36 <zzo38> I suppose now, other people might improve it, if they want to.
19:48:56 <fizzie> GreyKnight: He's strictly a lowercase bot.
19:49:18 <fizzie> fungot: Are you a caseist?
19:49:19 <fungot> fizzie: is it an ingenious joke? :d did i leave? except to wish me good night, offby1.
19:54:33 <GreyKnight> fungot, do you think of HackEgo as your sibling? Or cousin?
19:54:34 <fungot> GreyKnight: i mean the default handler procedure. it would just generate a new position for every recursive call? yes, that's my suggestion would be to cheat there
19:55:02 <elliott> *Main> :k! forall ts ctx. (('[Int,String] ?? ts) ctx)
19:55:02 <elliott> forall ts ctx. (('[Int,String] ?? ts) ctx) :: Constraint
19:55:02 <elliott> = forall (ts :: [*]) (ctx :: Constraint). (??) ((':) * Int ((':) * [Char] ('[] *))) ts ctx
19:55:13 <elliott> it doesn't help that ghci is profoundly awful at showing this stuff
19:57:41 <lambdabot> The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that.
19:58:36 <Bike> I think that elliott's code there has a lot of nonstandard stuff, and wouldn't be great for learning hasell exactly?
19:58:43 <elliott> GreyKnight: '[Foo,Bar] is a type-level list
19:58:54 <elliott> Bike: I don't think this code is good for learning *anything*
19:59:27 <GreyKnight> Bike: I know enough Haskell to recognise it is mostly extensions. But I was interested!
19:59:45 <Bike> dangerous feeling, that
20:00:36 <elliott> hm maybe I need to encode constraint implication as a typeclass
20:00:45 <GreyKnight> Yes, I think I'm about at the "just enough knowledge to be dangerous to myself and those around me" level :v
20:00:57 <lambdabot> [2,4,16,256,65536,4294967296,18446744073709551616,3402823669209384634633746...
20:01:37 <elliott> p.s. all I am actually trying to do is shorten ((x ? ts) ctx, (y ? ts) ctx') to (('[x,y] ?? ts) ctx)
20:02:47 <zzo38> Where does the letters of spectral class of starts from?
20:03:26 <zzo38> (Someone said he thought they stood for: awesome, beautiful, amazing, fantastic, good, cool, and mediocre. But, probably that isn't it.)
20:04:21 <Bike> I thought "m" was "mainline".
20:04:32 <zzo38> Bike: Maybe it is but I don't know what they stand for.
20:04:44 <zzo38> Or even if they stand for anything.
20:05:16 <GreyKnight> I actually don't know! We should find out.
20:05:23 <Bike> wikipedia isn't helping...
20:05:40 <zzo38> I also tried Wikipedia
20:06:20 <zzo38> "The current non-alphabetical scheme developed from an earlier scheme using all letters from A to O"
20:06:34 <Bike> Though! It does mention a class W extension, which is apparently named after its author, Wolf.
20:07:20 <GreyKnight> http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=488
20:09:33 <zzo38> Wikipedia mentions some other classes too
20:10:33 <GreyKnight> Is there a "Spectral types in popular culture" section??
20:15:18 <FreeFull> > iterate (iterate (map (+1)))
20:15:20 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = [a0]
20:15:25 <FreeFull> > iterate (iterate (map (+1))) [1]
20:15:27 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = [a0]
20:15:33 <elliott> Could not deduce (Elem x1 xs0 'True) arising from a use of spec'
20:15:33 <elliott> from the context ((TypeEq t x b, ctx, ctx'),
20:15:33 <elliott> (??) ((':) * x ('[] *)) ts ctx,
20:15:36 <elliott> (??) xs ((':) * t ts) ctx')
20:15:58 <FreeFull> Haskell might be the most confusing programming language ever sometimes :D
20:16:20 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Confusion'
20:16:24 <kmc> FreeFull: this isn't Haskell
20:16:28 <Bike> no one can help you where you're going, elliott
20:16:34 <kmc> it is crazy-land experimental GHC extensions
20:17:26 <kmc> yeah basically
20:17:44 <kmc> this is similar to complaining about C upon seeing some C++ code
20:17:52 <kmc> except that C++ is at least a standard with multiple implementations
20:18:26 <GreyKnight> whereas *this* is just a big pile of stuff shovelled together and set on fire :o)
20:18:37 <Bike> totally unlike C++ in that respect, amirite.
20:19:02 <kmc> hm should i give my C++ speech again
20:19:16 <Bike> why do you have a C++ speech?
20:19:16 <elliott> kmc: I'd rather one compiler that makes as much sense as GHC (i.e. a minimal amount) than the mess that nobody knows how to implement that is C++
20:19:17 <kmc> not really
20:19:50 <kmc> Bike: because my opinion of C++ is uncommon and i keep wanting to explain it
20:20:03 <GreyKnight> If it's just a C++ *rant* then I could give my own
20:20:16 <Bike> if uncommon means "I don't think it sucks as much as you think" i'd like to hear it
20:20:21 <GreyKnight> Oh okay, probably not a major rant then, that is not exactly uncommon
20:21:09 <kmc> it's not so much that it doesn't suck, but it sucks in an unusual way that is not commonly appreciated
20:21:41 <kmc> it is common for languages to have a haphazard pile of features that interact poorly
20:21:56 <kmc> that is often said about C++
20:21:57 * Fiora would be interested?
20:21:59 <GreyKnight> Which out of the many bizarre forms of suckage C++ exhibits do you refer to? :-)
20:22:00 <kmc> but i don't think it's true
20:22:32 <kmc> in fact, if you learn C++ in depth, you see that it all fits together just so, into a design that is powerful, consistent, and maybe even elegant
20:22:44 <kmc> unfortunately this design is so ornate and complicated that it sucks for getting real work done
20:22:56 <kmc> but i do not think there was a lack of thought put into integrating these various features
20:23:13 <kmc> one reason C++ is often misunderstood is that people don't usually learn very much of it
20:23:30 <kmc> they approach it as "C with some stuff" and learn various features as they go
20:24:02 <kmc> when really, C++ was designed to be a high level language very different from C, which just embeds C as a foreign-function interface
20:24:14 <zzo38> Actually what I have seen in C++ there is many problems. I don't like that they removed the implicit (void*) cast, and the template syntax which uses <> is no good, and there is too many operator overloading, only some should be allowed overloaded.
20:24:31 <kmc> yeah there are certainly many many features that are just bad
20:24:37 <kmc> and a lot of syntactic ugliness from the embedding of C
20:25:02 <GreyKnight> You should make a new language called just "++"
20:26:19 <zzo38> These template and operator overloading and so on are not too bad but I think should be made in a more C-like way without <> for templates and without overloading [] and so on; if you use [] it should use the overloading unary * and binary + and allow typedefs (rather than classes) to specify the overloading and parameters and so on.
20:26:22 <Fiora> I guess I don't have much of an opinion but my feeling is just like, it's so complicated and tricky that it's really hard to understand
20:26:50 <zzo38> I just think C++ is the wrong way to improve C, and so is most of C99 and C11 also the wrong way to improve C.
20:27:14 <kmc> zzo38: i agree that C++ is the wrong way to improve C
20:27:41 <Bike> my feeling is mostly that smalltalk is nice and i wish c++ would have had a more message-passy model so that object-orientation wouldn't be the enterprise stereotype, but that's shallow
20:27:49 <kmc> C++ is a totally different language with a different set of concepts
20:28:01 <kmc> like any language, it has a foreign function interface to C
20:28:09 <kmc> the syntactic nature of that interface is regrettable and causes much misunderstanding
20:28:42 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I suppose you are correct
20:28:55 <kmc> another redeeming feature of C++ is that it's extremely unusual
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20:29:06 <kmc> so learning it well (not just as "C with crap bolted on") will expand your mind and make you a better programmer
20:29:12 <zzo38> But if they want to do that, there is more of the C stuff which needs to be changed in C++ since much doesn't fit
20:29:34 <kmc> i would love to use a language with the same conceptual basis as C++ but a more modern syntax that doesn't try to embed C
20:29:37 <elliott> I think kmc should fix my code. :(
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20:30:09 <kmc> C++ is the only language I know where objects are first class, not just references to objects
20:30:44 <kmc> which motivates features like copy constructors, operator=, and now move semantics and rvalue references
20:30:56 <kmc> just thinking about why these features are needed in C++ and not other languages is tremendously enlightening
20:31:34 <GreyKnight> One could argue that other languages not needing these is a good thing :-)
20:31:55 <kmc> i'm not arguing otherwise
20:32:16 <elliott> starting to believe this whole endeavour was fundamentally misguided
20:32:18 <kmc> however C++ gives you a degree of control that you don't get in languages where objects are always by reference
20:32:18 <zzo38> Not that there is anything wrong with that, but trying to fit it into C-like syntax and semantics, and using < > for templates even though < > are normally binary operators and not brackets, are not so good.
20:32:32 <kmc> in certain contexts, that control is very important
20:32:33 <kmc> and anyway
20:32:36 <kmc> it's interesting
20:32:45 <kmc> you should all learn C++ for the same reason you should all learn Haskell
20:33:13 <zzo38> It might be reasonable to make the programming language similar to C++ but not C, and then it would also be possible to make other improvements too.
20:33:15 <kmc> it's also an important cautionary tale for language designers
20:33:15 <Bike> the C++ standard is like 1000+ pages, right? prooooobably not the best way
20:33:57 <zzo38> Bike: Well, of course, you should not make it so complicated, either.
20:34:09 <kmc> Bike: if you already know some C and C++ basics, http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq/ is a great way to get exposure to various interesting corners of the language
20:34:24 <kmc> and i would be remiss if i did not also link to http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/
20:34:36 <Bike> zzo38: i was referring to how i could learn the language
20:34:39 <Fiora> I remember that, the FQA is fun
20:34:40 <Bike> and yeah, i'm aware of the fqa
20:36:16 <GreyKnight> Learning C++ from the standard is also problematic in that you would need a standard-compliant compiler to make best use of your knowledge :-U
20:36:39 <Bike> "Anyone who argues in favor of one language over another in a purely technical manner (i.e., who ignores the dominant business issues) exposes themself as a techie weenie, and deserves not to be heard." oh snap, son
20:37:30 <GreyKnight> Bike: "All languages suck. Find one that sucks less at the particular thing you want to do."
20:38:09 <elliott> @quote monochrom for the job
20:38:12 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. I've seen penguins that can type better than that.
20:38:15 <GreyKnight> My variation on the sentiment you quoted
20:38:16 <lambdabot> ddarius says: "use the right platitude for the job"
20:38:59 <GreyKnight> ddarius, king of the mmedes and the ppersians?
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20:39:56 <Bike> «Now let's get real here. I'm not suggesting macros or arrays or pointers are right up there with murder or kidnapping. Well, maybe pointers. (Just kidding!)» *monotone* ha, ha, ha
20:40:55 <quintopia> is there a language where quaternions are included in the standard libraries?
20:41:33 <elliott> Bike: guys I am making a joke here! (it's a joke!) (you should laugh) (I wasn't seriously suggesting what you thought I might have been!!)
20:41:51 <GreyKnight> (It's a raytracer, but it includes a TC language)
20:41:53 <Bike> yeah this whole faq is pretty that
20:42:16 <Bike> something something mockery of business something
20:42:59 <kmc> yeah the tone of the FAQ is frequently aggrivating
20:43:07 <kmc> you might want to skip to the bits with code
20:43:29 <GreyKnight> The FQA guy seems particularly irate about the "changing private members necessitates recompiling users of the class" point. He only repeats it 350 times.
20:43:33 <kmc> it's not as bad as jslint guy saying that the ++ operator is the top source of security holes in the world
20:44:19 * GreyKnight tries to think of a way to open any security hole with ++
20:45:00 <kmc> "The ++ (increment) and -- (decrement) operators have been known to contribute to bad code by encouraging excessive trickiness. They are second only to faulty architecture in enabling to viruses and other security menaces."
20:46:42 <GreyKnight> int N = 10; while( N --> 0 ) { /*...code...*/ }
20:46:58 <Fiora> that is wonderfully terrible
20:47:30 <Bike> why would you do that
20:48:04 <Taneb> And terrifyingly wonderble
20:48:05 <GreyKnight> Bike: IDK, maybe you hate maintainers?
20:48:19 <Fiora> int x = 0; int arr[5] = {0}; arr[x+++++x] = x+++++x;
20:48:23 <Fiora> //what does this code do
20:48:40 <kmc> undefined behavior due to assigning a variable twice between sequence points?
20:49:13 <GreyKnight> try { return 1; } finally { return 2; }
20:49:38 <kmc> i'm going to say 2 but i'm not positive
20:49:45 <Fiora> is that defined behavior?
20:50:00 <GreyKnight> I put that on the whiteboard in work today to see if I could break anyone's brain :o)
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20:50:23 <olsner> probably depends on which language you're talking about
20:50:23 <GreyKnight> It's either undefined or illegal depending on the language
20:50:25 <Fiora> that sounds like a fun C++ language lawyer question XD
20:51:20 <Bike> I suppose it depends on how final the finally really is.
20:51:34 <olsner> but pretty sure it gives 2 in Java, in fuzzy terms finally runs between evaluating the return value and returning and can return another value if it wants
20:52:51 <Bike> here's one i've seen in lisp before: (block buu (catch 'bar (return-from buu (eval '(throw 'bar 1)))))
20:53:35 <olsner> there's a couple of bytecodes in Java added specifically to implement finally to allow nested finally clauses to work correctly and fun stuff like that
20:54:21 <kmc> C++ doesn't have "finally"
20:54:43 <Bike> oh, wasn't there a bizarre php bug report thread about finally
20:55:05 <Bike> i think the response was "use RAII instead" or something
20:55:09 <kmc> isn't that a special case of the bug that the php developers are all smoking glue?
20:55:19 <Bike> obviously, but still.
20:55:20 <Bike> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=32100
20:55:20 <kmc> RAII in PHP?
20:55:34 <Bike> «We've had long discussions and came to the only conclusion that we don't need that, for more search the mailing list archieves.» i'm convinced!
20:55:44 <Bike> «And that design looks like Java where it unlike with PHP makes somewhat sense.»
20:56:39 <Bike> «Basically, most good uses of finally are used for deallocating resources. Another way would simply be to design an object that represents the resource that automatically deallocates itself via the destructor.» yep, there we go.
20:57:29 <Fiora> finally's Java and C# then?
20:57:29 <kmc> i like the idea behind RAII but the amount of syntax you need to create a new resource-holding-thing in C++ makes it really painful
20:57:30 <Bike> taken from "Stroustrup's C++ Style and Technique FAQ"!
20:57:56 <Bike> Fiora: it's in both of them, yeah
20:57:57 <fizzie> "x+++++x" isn't undefined behaviour, it's a syntax error.
20:58:06 <Fiora> x++ + ++x isn't legitimate?
20:58:13 <fizzie> It parses as (x++)++ + x.
20:58:17 <kmc> in general I hated OOP until I learned Python and learned that you could use classes without creating a new file and a dozen lines of boilerplat for each one
20:58:18 <fizzie> There's a maximal-munch rule.
20:58:26 <coppro> but that is a valid parse
20:58:29 <fizzie> You always eat as many characters as you can to make a token.
20:58:33 <Bike> that reminds me of learning java
20:58:34 <Fiora> I guess that's to ensure the language is LL(1) or something?
20:58:38 <fizzie> Yeah, I was supposed to say a constraint violation.
20:58:38 <Fiora> or whatever the right one is
20:58:40 <coppro> fizzie: pffffffffffffff
20:58:46 <Bike> javac yelled at me when i tried to name the files differently from the class
20:58:51 <Bike> and i was like "why do you give a damn"
20:58:52 <coppro> fiora: pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
20:58:55 <coppro> C is context-sensitive
20:58:56 <kmc> python has 'finally' as well
20:59:06 <kmc> for a while you could do 'try .. except' or 'try .. finally' but not both together :x
20:59:09 <kmc> however that is fixed now
20:59:22 <coppro> kmc: I like C++'s approach
20:59:28 <Bike> exception handling: arcane, apparently!
20:59:42 <Fiora> I don't remember my parsing termology bleh
20:59:42 <Bike> oh god, wikipedia has an article "Exception handling syntax"
20:59:47 <Fiora> too long since that class
20:59:59 <Fiora> okay so, x++ + ++x; compiles with gcc
21:00:07 <olsner> kmc: "fixed" ... did they get it right though?
21:00:08 <kmc> GHC Haskell also has 'finally'; of course it doesn't need to be special syntax; it's an ordinary function
21:00:14 <Fiora> x+++ ++x; compiles
21:00:17 <kmc> olsner: i don't know what it does in every weird corner case
21:00:31 <fizzie> Fiora: Sure, since the tokens for +++x would be ++ + x, and that's a syntax error.
21:00:47 <kmc> GHC Haskell has another function "bracket" which is like Python's "with" statement, but again an ordinary library function
21:01:03 <Fiora> it says "lvalue required as increment operand"
21:01:05 <fizzie> coppro: Oh, okay, unary plus.
21:01:07 <Bike> Fiora: obviously you should try compiling with every number of plusses from three to thirty and see what happens.
21:01:09 <olsner> isn't there a unary prefix + operator in c++? maybe it can be overloaded
21:01:10 <Fiora> which I guess means it's trying to do... ++(+x)?
21:01:19 <kmc> olsner: yes there is and yes it can :(
21:01:41 <olsner> it's :) if you think about it as an esolang, :( if you actually have to use it
21:01:42 <kmc> C++ lets you overload preincrement and postincrement operator++ separately
21:01:46 <Fiora> x-- ---x; also doesn't work
21:01:53 <Bike> why would you want to
21:01:55 <kmc> well they have different types!
21:02:00 <Fiora> because -x isn't an lvalue
21:02:05 <kmc> can have, anyway
21:02:22 <kmc> in some cases preincrement can mutate 'this' while postincrement needs to return a copy
21:02:56 <kmc> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq/increment-pre-post-speed.html
21:03:16 <kmc> anyway the *way* you overload them separately
21:03:23 <Bike> and oh, so haskell has exceptions as a monad (if i'm reading this correctly), makes sense
21:03:24 <kmc> is hilarious
21:03:25 <kmc> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq/increment-pre-post-overloading.html
21:03:34 <Bike> "via a dummy parameter"
21:03:50 <kmc> preincrement is Foo::operator++(), postincrement is Foo::operator++(int)
21:04:09 <Bike> "If that's not immediately obvious to you" fuck off
21:04:15 <Taneb> Bike, it's Haskell. If it isn't an arrow, it's a monad
21:04:18 <Taneb> And arrows are monads
21:04:29 <Taneb> It's not true at all
21:04:33 <Bike> Taneb: i don't even know haskell, and nonetheless What He Said
21:04:45 <kmc> Bike: the "native" exceptions are thrown and caught with IO-monad actions, yes
21:04:46 <zzo38> The way they designed those kind of thing in C++ is terrible anyways.
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21:04:59 <kmc> there are some other monads that give exception-like control flow, implemented purely using functions
21:05:05 <fizzie> The same longest-parse lexer thing is why C++ templates need x< y<z> > and can't use x<y<z>> -- that would lexically tokenize as x < y < z >>.
21:05:07 <Bike> kmc: wait, IO, what?
21:05:17 <kmc> e.g. Either, ErrorT, and various third-party libraries
21:05:31 <zzo38> The idea is not particularly bad, but whoever design C++ must have had two conflicting goals and that must be why they messed it up.
21:05:32 <kmc> Bike: the IO monad basically gives you a full imperative programming language embedded in Haskell
21:05:39 <elliott> 21:04:46 <kmc> Bike: the "native" exceptions are thrown and caught with IO-monad actions, yes
21:05:42 <Bike> So, weird naming then
21:05:43 <kmc> you get IO, mutable variables, shared-state concurrency, exceptions, etc.
21:05:48 <kmc> it is a bit of a historical name yes
21:05:50 <elliott> that's also not true if you're referring to exception systems that are actually implemented
21:05:55 <shachaf> Haskell is the only language I know of that has seriously tried to unify "returning error codes" with "throwing exceptions".
21:05:59 <elliott> (GHC recently removed the old exceptions system)
21:06:21 <Bike> shachaf: how are they unified?
21:06:26 <zzo38> In Haskell, arrows are not monads, and not everything are arrows and monads. There are also comonads, categories, contravariant functors, applicatives, transformer, etc
21:06:43 <Fiora> coppro: I remember there was some specific thing about C that required context sensitivity... was it something involving like whether something was a typedef or a function name or something like that?
21:06:51 <Fiora> or is it just lots of things
21:06:54 <Taneb> zzo38, I was making a not-very-funny joke
21:06:55 <shachaf> Bike: If a function :: ... -> Maybe Foo returns Nothing, is that "returning an error" or "an exception"?
21:07:03 <Fiora> or maybe that was the lexer/parser mixing
21:07:03 <Bike> oh, i suppose you could set up a monad that throws instead of just dumping Nothing
21:07:03 <zzo38> kmc: I think IO is actually the correct name for such thing
21:07:15 <zzo38> But you can do a lot of those things without IO, as well.
21:07:35 <elliott> Fiora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lexer_hack
21:07:49 <Bike> still love that name
21:07:53 <Bike> /the/ lexer hack
21:08:03 <elliott> Fiora: see also http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2007/11/24/the-context-sensitivity-of-cs-grammar/, http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2011/05/02/the-context-sensitivity-of-c%E2%80%99s-grammar-revisited/
21:08:10 <zzo38> shachaf: I would say it is just returning Nothing. However, if you treat it as the action-oriented monad, then it is like an error.
21:08:21 <elliott> oh there's even more http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/06/28/the-type-variable-name-ambiguity-in-c/ http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2012/07/05/how-clang-handles-the-type-variable-name-ambiguity-of-cc/
21:08:40 <Bike> shachaf: and to answer that i'd say it's returning an error code, but as I understand haskell you could set things up to make that "throw an exception"?
21:09:03 <shachaf> Bike: Well, "throwing an exception" is exactly the same thing, really.
21:09:36 <shachaf> If I say do { x <- thingThatCanFail1; y <- thingThatCanFail2; return (x + y) }, and either of those things fail (are Nothing), the whole computation fails (is Nothing).
21:09:37 <Fiora> oh wow, the hack is scope-sensitive too
21:09:37 <ais523> you can have other-language-style exceptions if you feel like it, and they'd still be the same thing
21:09:40 <ais523> but normally you don't bother
21:10:08 <Bike> right, because that's how the monad is set up, yeah?
21:10:20 <kmc> right, it's in the definition of (>>=) for that particular type
21:10:34 <shachaf> Yes. You can define how "do" behaves for your type, within certain constraints.
21:10:35 <zzo38> shachaf: I wouldn't write it that way but yes that is a way. I might use liftA2
21:10:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes but that's not the point.
21:11:01 <Bike> and you could have a monad that's like Maybe but returns either Just [result] or Error [code], and have try/catch style on top of that pretty simply
21:11:09 <zzo38> Well, that you have Either
21:11:15 <elliott> careful about using [] there
21:11:20 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/380205_10151148043401513_824523926_n.jpg
21:11:22 <kmc> > do { Left 3; Left 4 }
21:11:27 <elliott> (that monad exists, btw -- Either)
21:11:27 <Bike> i'm running out of metasyntax, elliott
21:11:32 <kmc> > do { Right 3; Right 4 }
21:11:35 <shachaf> Never metasyntax I didn't like.
21:11:37 <elliott> Left error vs. Right result
21:11:42 <shachaf> In C++ I like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_vexing_parse
21:11:43 <kmc> heh there is a cute visual symmetry there :)
21:11:45 <elliott> Bike: thankfully Haskell is its own metasyntax!
21:11:51 <Bike> what does that mean
21:11:57 <Fiora> elliott: thanks for the links, those are really cool
21:12:03 <kmc> Bike: that's why i started using «guillemets» in #haskell
21:12:04 <elliott> but it means you don't need to quote variables specially to talk about them :P
21:12:05 <Bike> things that don't mean things are the bomb
21:12:09 <zzo38> You don't have to use Left as an error necessarily; you can also use it to mean that is the final result and no further calculation is required.
21:12:15 <olsner> shachaf: awesome name at least
21:12:17 <Bike> kmc: damn, i was just about to make a joke about that since i'ts how i usually quote anyway.
21:12:56 <shachaf> kmc: Do you have your right Alt key set up as AltGr?
21:13:00 <kmc> i use compose
21:13:08 <ion> I use AltGr and Compose.
21:13:09 <Bike> oh yeah, i was gonna set up compose because of your post
21:13:17 <Bike> and then i realized that i don't actually want to type in greek very often
21:13:20 <kmc> since we're talking about awful syntactic corners of C++ i feel that somebody should bring up 'typename' and also that weird use of 'template' keyword
21:13:32 <elliott> I used typename in my Deadfish interpreter in C++ templates
21:13:37 <olsner> what do guillemets mean in haskell?
21:13:40 * elliott cunningly works reference to the fact that he did that into ordinary sentence
21:13:40 <Fiora> elliott: it's interesting how like, you could probably make a tiny change to the language to make the problem go away
21:13:47 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe there's no Dvorak (AltGr deadkeys) by default.
21:13:49 <Fiora> I wonder why they designed it that way, or if they didn't realize it?
21:14:01 <kmc> shachaf: yeah except I think foo needs to be a qualified name or something
21:14:14 <Bike> i'd be pretty surprised if nobody had come up with altgr deadkeys dvorak, though
21:14:22 <Bike> actually i think i know a guy who uses that...
21:14:44 <kmc> http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/dox/TopicTemplateKeyword.html
21:14:53 <olsner> elliott: what a waste of characters! typename is longer than class
21:14:54 * FireFly uses a localized dvorak variant with deadkeys and altgr
21:15:03 <elliott> olsner: I don't think class would have worked?
21:15:06 <elliott> oh maybe it was template I used
21:15:15 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#C.2B.2B_templates
21:15:19 <zzo38> Maybe and Either monads are not for catching errors; that is just one possible use of it.
21:15:28 <Bike> i am aware, zzo
21:15:35 <kmc> olsner: wait can you use "class" in the "typname C<T>::t x" case?
21:15:43 <zzo38> Some people don't understand so well
21:15:51 <elliott> ais523: "Not sure if this is where to say this, but you said to ask you."
21:16:05 <zzo38> Actually, even with continuation monad; continuations is just one possible use of it.
21:16:06 <olsner> err, I was only thinking about the typename in "template <typename T>"
21:16:07 <Bike> well i don't actually know haskell, like i said, so i just pick things up from people talking about monads and types
21:16:08 <elliott> ais523: I'm not convinced that [[0L]] is actually worthy of deletion, btw, although it's probably best to do it to comply with their wishes
21:16:26 <elliott> ais523: it has identical /semantics/ to another language, but the whole point of joke languages is the joke itself, and 0L's is different to Nil's
21:16:26 <kmc> the problem is that monads are talked about grossly out of proportion to their importance in haskell
21:16:53 <elliott> kmc cleverly counters this problem by talking about them even more to point this out BURN???
21:16:55 <kmc> for all the hype, it's just a particular use case of operator overloading, with a little special syntax
21:16:56 <zzo38> Like I said, Haskell also has comonads and various other stuff too.
21:16:59 <kmc> yeah basically elliott
21:17:02 <Bike> the type stuff seems more interesting to me since i started thinking of Maybe as syntactic sugar for CPS
21:17:11 <Bike> well not just Maybe I guess. whatever
21:17:17 <kmc> you know what's even better syntactic sugar for CPS? Cont monad
21:17:19 <zzo38> Monads is just one possible mathematical structure.
21:17:38 <Bike> >>= i think is the operator
21:18:00 <shachaf> What about Codensity monad?!
21:18:01 <olsner> ion: is that a police reindeer? what use do they have for it?
21:18:02 <Bike> ok, now i'm sounding dumb. so: why are monads such a "thing" in the dumbly making fun of haskell community
21:18:07 <zzo38> Well, >>= by itself does not define a monad you also need return. Or a monad can be defined by fmap and return and join.
21:18:24 <Bike> was it that "monoid in the category of endofunctors" crack?
21:18:26 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, (Codensity (Const x)) is like (Cont x)
21:18:50 <Taneb> Is something with fmap and join but no return useful?
21:19:14 <ion> olsner: It is, and i don’t know actually.
21:19:22 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't know, but it isn't a monad.
21:20:07 <zzo38> Since they are certain kind of mathematical structures, there are certain theorems on it, and certain things that automatically work with anything having those features. This is also why monads can be defined in those two ways, why there is Kleisli category, why do-notation is possible, etc
21:20:35 <Bike> i forget, what's the thing that's true of monads but not pseudomonads?
21:21:02 <elliott> well it is true that monads are not pseudo
21:21:05 <elliott> but pseudomonads are definitely pseudo
21:21:09 <kmc> what's the thing that's true of monads but not pseudoephedrine
21:21:22 <elliott> this doesn't seem very complicated Bike
21:21:42 <kmc> i don't think "pseudomonads" are a thing Bike
21:21:49 <elliott> kmc: I think I might have to give up on my nice syntax
21:21:53 <Bike> it's something i read in a paper once. lemme double check
21:21:59 <elliott> actually ugh I can't really
21:22:13 <elliott> because i need this thingy to do the thangy
21:22:19 <olsner> Bike: part of the monad myth (at least when it comes to haskell) is the vast number of bad "monad tutorials" getting posted by people who have suddenly grokked it and go on to (fail to) teach the world of all their wonders
21:22:28 <olsner> (though I'm not sure that's what you asked)
21:22:53 <Bike> ugh how do i paste here
21:22:55 <shachaf> Or "think they have suddenly grokked it and then post misleading things about boxes".
21:22:58 <Bike> olsner: yeah i've read that thing too
21:23:10 <Bike> stupid pdf, let me cutpaste!
21:23:48 <kmc> by "not a thing" i mean not something that people generally talk about
21:23:56 <kmc> i'm not surprised that some paper somewhere has defined that term
21:24:32 <Bike> let's see, the cite for the theory is "How to Compose Monads". sounds riveting
21:24:45 <elliott> maybe I can do the "fish" trick her
21:25:16 <olsner> I guess there's some kind of feedback loop where that phenomenon makes newbies get the impression monads are SUPER IMPORTANT which causes them to continue the process and maybe write their own monad tutorial once they realize it's sort of trivial
21:25:19 <Bike> "Which is more efficient: i++ or ++i?" going back to C++, why would you wonder about this?
21:25:32 <kmc> did you read the answer?
21:25:39 <kmc> olsner: yup yup
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21:26:20 <Bike> i just don't understand why you'd ask, it seems like it'd be an incredibly minor hiccup even in the case of running 286 Linux or something
21:26:33 <zzo38> If i++ and ++i is compiled into a LLVM code, it might be the same either way, I would think.
21:26:43 <zzo38> If it is as a statement by itself.
21:26:44 <kmc> dude this is C++
21:26:46 <elliott> Bike: have you seen some beginner attitudes to performance
21:26:47 <olsner> c++ coders just *think* that stuff is really important
21:27:06 <Bike> elliott: yes but i'm temporarily shutting down my memories to avoid trauma.
21:27:18 <kmc> it could be a monster object
21:27:25 <kmc> it could be a 1000x1000 matrix that you are adding pointwise
21:27:31 <kmc> operator overloading
21:27:36 <zzo38> Does LLVM allow zero-length arrays?
21:27:42 <olsner> and then they go on to write code conventions where ++i must be used instead of i++ because PERFORMANCE
21:27:54 <kmc> yeah what olsner is saying is also true
21:28:01 <Bike> i actually write ++i anyway. i just, i don't remember why and i don't remember caring
21:28:02 <olsner> they = the beginners with their attitudes to performance
21:28:19 <kmc> i think we should have a contest to make up plausible but completely nonsensical cargo cult performance rules
21:28:24 <Bike> of course when i learned C++ i was like fourteen and reading one of those 21 days books, so maybe i'm just doomed.
21:28:58 <Fiora> kmc: you might be able to convince people that they should order their arithmetic properly to improve pipelining
21:29:00 <Bike> you're in luck, kmc has been linking classes!
21:29:19 <olsner> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Longjmp--FOR-SPEED!!!.aspx
21:29:35 <Bike> those are not words i expected to see conjuncted olsner
21:29:58 <Bike> "use longjmp instead of loops to increase speed"
21:30:33 <Bike> this channel hurts me.
21:30:38 <olsner> the normal short jumps are just not optimized for long calculations
21:30:54 <kmc> you should use SSE2 128-bit jumps
21:31:09 <Fiora> SSE2 doesn't even have control transfer instructions :<
21:31:40 <shachaf> Yes, that's only available in AVX2.
21:31:43 <kmc> shachaf: i wonder if longjmp makes system calls to change the signal mask
21:31:50 <Fiora> ... AVX2 has control transfer instructions? @_@
21:31:55 <shachaf> Well, not last time I checked.
21:31:59 <shachaf> Or maybe there were two variants.
21:32:02 <GreyKnight> Fiora's pipeline convention sounds good to me!
21:32:05 <Fiora> I know it has the weird simd loads
21:32:16 <Fiora> but that still requires manual jumps and stuff
21:32:22 <shachaf> There's sigsetjmp() and siglongjmp().
21:32:51 <shachaf> Once upon a time I investigated this and ended up sticking with our own code.
21:32:56 <kmc> Fiora's rule isn't satisfactory because it would require people to acknowledge that CPUs do something other than execute instructions directly from memory one at a time in order
21:32:58 <elliott> kmc: is it bad if i have a five-parameter typeclass
21:33:12 <Fiora> kmc: but partial knowledge of complex systems is great for cargo culting!
21:33:19 <shachaf> kmc: longjmp() doesn't really help you make portable coroutines because there's no primitive for setting up a stack.
21:33:20 <kmc> elliott: that's bad and you should feel bad
21:33:50 <shachaf> elliott: I recommend taking inspiration from classy-prelude
21:33:52 <zzo38> Does LLVM have primitives for setting up a stack?
21:33:54 <shachaf> They have plenty of those.
21:34:01 <Bike> i feel bad about having that view of CPUs :<
21:34:12 <elliott> it's actually six-parameter kmc sorry
21:34:26 <kmc> elliott: you should feel 20% worse
21:34:27 <zzo38> LLVM does support a few different kind of exceptions handling.
21:34:28 <shachaf> Oh, these days you can see the context switching code in RethinkDB.
21:34:33 <shachaf> Hmm, they're adding x86 support?
21:34:53 <olsner> better watch out before you end up having to enable the MassivelyMultiParamTypeClasses extension
21:34:53 <Bike> despite fiora's efforts to move me from "6502, one at a time" to "x86, bizarre instruction sludge that somehow goes very fast"
21:34:55 <NihilistDandy> class CanMapFunc ci co i o | ci -> i, co -> o, ci o -> co, co i -> ci where
21:35:08 <Fiora> "bizarre instruction sludge that somehow goes really fast"
21:35:23 <shachaf> NihilistDandy: CanMapMFunc is a lot like Each
21:35:23 <FireFly> shachaf: you stab Each of them?!
21:35:37 <Bike> FireFly: you only get A stab.
21:36:14 <shachaf> https://github.com/rethinkdb/rethinkdb/blob/next/src/arch/runtime/context_switching.cc
21:36:28 <zzo38> I have programmed in 6502 assembly language.
21:36:33 <Fiora> kmc: http://pastebin.com/JkJcsn46
21:36:39 <Bike> i read metroid once, that's about it for me >_>
21:36:50 <shachaf> That looks like a bit of a mess.
21:36:51 <elliott> i know next to nothing about cpu architectures
21:37:13 <zzo38> There are somethings things that can be done with it if you already know the value of some register or status flags, to reuse them, or to reorder things to make the program efficient.
21:37:15 <Bike> Fiora: you misspelled "multiplication". also, oh god you witch
21:37:22 <GreyKnight> Maybe we can convince people to "optimise" their code into 1000-line functions. OH WAIT
21:37:23 <elliott> Fiora: I don't like how that uses C to demonstrate things, since the compiler is free to reorder all that stuff
21:37:29 <kmc> well this can partially be true in some cases, yeah?
21:37:29 * FireFly goes back to studying his (amongst other things) CPU architectures test tomorrow
21:37:36 <kmc> except it's the compiler's responsibility to order instructions and not yours
21:37:43 <Fiora> that's why it's totally silly cargo cult
21:37:45 <Bike> elliott: the joke is that it's dumb, yes
21:37:56 <kmc> but we all know that C is "close to the machine" and the compiler just emits one assembly instruction per semicolon
21:38:05 <zzo38> I have implemented ARCFOUR in 6502 assembly language, but without a key.
21:38:21 <elliott> that might have helped me realise it was meant to be wrong
21:38:34 <elliott> yes i blame you directly for me ignoring half the linked context
21:38:43 <olsner> kmc: always use comma instead of semicolon: that allows the compiler to merge them into one assembly instruction when possible
21:38:44 <elliott> "An open-source, distributed system." rethinkdb nominated for least helpful repository description in history
21:38:58 <Bike> maybe i should write something based on my own non-field. how to use eval to speed up your code
21:39:02 <Fiora> olsner: oh god now I'm imagining writing like, the worst guide to this ever
21:39:07 <Fiora> it feels terrible yet so satisfying
21:39:49 <Bike> macros: let me show you how to write fortran in lisp
21:39:55 <zzo38> Will GNU and LLVM automatically correct that http://pastebin.com/JkJcsn46 code if one way is faster than another?
21:40:04 <Bike> GreyKnight: what huh
21:40:14 <Fiora> zzo38: the compiler's ordering is pretty much unrelated to the order you write things in, I think
21:40:22 <Fiora> since it goes into the compiler as just a big tree of SSA instructions
21:40:28 <Bike> well, it has to track sequence points, doesn't it?
21:40:36 <FireFly> "oh, you wanted to compute the value *before* you returned it?"
21:40:40 <kmc> btw Cargo Cult is the Burning Man 2013 art theme
21:40:47 <Bike> i mean, i don't know where all the sequence points are anyway, but
21:41:53 <GreyKnight> FireFly, do it the Haskell way instead! Possibly never compute it!
21:42:01 <olsner> zzo38: dunno how *well* they do it, but reordering instructions to optimally fill pipelines is important for in-order cpus so compilers do as much of it as they can
21:42:36 <shachaf> What about classy-prelude-conduit?!
21:42:42 <kmc> what about classist-prelude
21:43:08 <Bike> is that like objectivist C#
21:43:09 <kmc> the history of haskell is the history of class struggle
21:43:46 <GreyKnight> Hm do we have any objectivist esolangs?
21:43:54 <kmc> i'm shocked that nobody has made this joke yet
21:44:11 <kmc> given the popularity of puns in the Haskell Community
21:44:18 <Bike> @google "objectivist c#"
21:44:20 <kmc> NihilistDandy: GreyKnight: c.c for both of you
21:44:32 <kmc> i think it's "objectivist C"
21:44:39 <kmc> by analogy to, y'know, objective C
21:44:39 <olsner> keep it classy: don't mention the class struggle
21:44:45 <elliott> Could not deduce (TC q xs0 ts ctx0) arising from a use of spec'
21:44:45 <elliott> from the context (TC q xs ts ctx)
21:44:59 <GreyKnight> Is c.c an unusual smiley or a particularly terse source file name?
21:44:59 <Bike> @google "objectivist c"
21:45:01 <lambdabot> http://fdiv.net/2012/04/01/objectivist-c
21:45:02 <lambdabot> Title: An Introduction to Objectivist-C | fdiv.net
21:45:03 <olsner> elliott: unsafeCoerce?
21:45:06 <Bike> wow, i fucked that up.
21:45:12 <kmc> GreyKnight: it's a great name for a self-hosting c compiler
21:45:13 <elliott> olsner: doesn't work so well for typeclass constraints IME
21:45:20 <kmc> it's eyes looking away in shame
21:45:21 <kmc> or something
21:46:35 <Bike> «"by reference" may slow down the code due to aliasing problems, forcing the compiler to actually spill values to memory in order to pass them to the code of an inlined function!» this fqa is scaring me a tad
21:47:18 <HackEgo> GreyKnight: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:47:27 <elliott> I think I might turn on PolyKinds just for convenience
21:47:30 <shachaf> elliott: What's the " and deployment" for?
21:48:05 <shachaf> Also PolyKinds is annoying.
21:48:08 <olsner> Bike: and the alternative "by value" may slow down the code at least as much due to copying the data
21:48:10 <shachaf> It messes up my pretty-printing.
21:48:13 <Bike> getting befunge used in production code, like our buddy befunge here
21:48:18 <fungot> Bike: syntax-case is not the terminated one, it assumes you at least a dozen implementations.
21:48:19 <shachaf> Prelude> data Foo k a = Foo
21:48:20 <shachaf> data Foo k k k a = Foo -- Defined at <interactive>:6:6
21:48:45 <Bike> olsner: that's in the previous clause, yeah.
21:49:22 <Fiora> elliott: um, for learning about arch stuff I really liked Agner's stuff. and the official optimization guides are pretty nice too for explaining the different stages of the architecture and stuff
21:49:31 <Fiora> http://agner.org/optimize/
21:49:50 <Fiora> 3) and 2) are the main relevant ones I think, since 4) is just a reference
21:49:57 <Bike> i wish i could find an assembly hacker who didn't write and webdesign like they lived in the early 90s
21:50:05 * Bike looks sidelong at fiora
21:50:11 <elliott> yeah I should probably read stuff
21:50:16 <Fiora> I don't even have a webpage unless my tumblr counts...
21:50:18 <elliott> I wrote a bootsector once, enough?????
21:50:21 <Bike> i hear reading is popular these days
21:50:30 <elliott> it even went into long mode I think
21:50:37 <shachaf> elliott: Was it as good as kmc's?
21:50:38 <olsner> elliott: how much did you copy-paste from other sources?
21:50:41 <shachaf> I never managed to run kmc's.
21:51:01 <NihilistDandy> elliott: This was my arch textbook: http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Organization-Design-Fourth-Architecture/dp/0123744938
21:51:07 <Bike> i like how the sizes are just numbers
21:51:33 <NihilistDandy> Though I gather that this is better: http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Architecture-Fifth-Edition-Quantitative/dp/012383872X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y
21:51:36 <Bike> how many books on arch are there anyway? i had that same boo.
21:51:49 <Fiora> I had an arch class but we didn't have a textbook
21:52:14 <Fiora> and then there was the extra advanced arch class where the professor was like drawing a mips processor on the board and like "oh, we need exceptions, let's draw in some wires here"
21:52:15 <Bike> you just had to stare down the chips
21:52:30 <Bike> http://www.amazon.com/Optimizing-Compilers-Modern-Architectures-Dependence-based/dp/1558602860 there is this
21:52:32 <Fiora> but then I hit an assignment where I had to pipeline a mips chip. in verilog. and I kind of had to drop the class
21:52:37 <Bike> though i haven't read it, because textbooks cost "money"
21:52:56 <Bike> i guess it's about low-level compilery stuff though. dependency ordering n shut.
21:53:06 <Bike> finding textbooks on torrents is hard.
21:53:28 <olsner> speaking of rabbits, they apparently tried to intentionally introduce a usually-fatal virus into australia's rabbit population to kill them off
21:53:40 <NihilistDandy> Depends what books. I tend to get updated versions of books that I've already bought.
21:53:43 <Bike> "Download this book from Usenet" or
21:53:59 <Bike> well, this is a book on compiler design targeting microarchitecture, not Thomas's Calculus, you know?
21:54:08 <olsner> the long-term effect seems to have been that australian rabbits are now mostly immune to that virus
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21:54:49 <Bike> is it "thomas'" or "thomas's", hm
21:55:29 <kmc> srsly though it's thomas's
21:55:31 <Bike> thomas is engineer oriented?
21:55:50 <NihilistDandy> Not enough proofs, too much "think about it like a balloon"
21:55:55 <Bike> i had an engineer-bent book for diffeq, it was depressing
21:56:34 <Bike> (later i found out that diffeq is An Engineering Thing regardless and math people just lump it in with calculus?)
21:57:00 <NihilistDandy> Yeah. I have to pretend to know diff eq for my chaos class next semester
21:57:15 <kmc> Fiora: oof
21:57:17 <NihilistDandy> But I'm just gonna do weird math and then make Mathematica do it.
21:57:19 <kmc> how many pipeline stages?
21:57:34 <Bike> nihilistdandy: it's basically a bunch of memorized (or in ew tables) rules for solving equations that don't actually come up in practice, apparently
21:57:57 <GreyKnight> There are a few randies in the comments of the objectivist C article, no hilarious meltdowns though
21:58:16 <Bike> mostly in the class i was busy wishing i knew how to make a CAS do the work for me
21:58:54 <GreyKnight> NihilistDandy: hm you *may* need to actually know differential equations for chaos theory stuff
21:59:17 <Bike> well they'll need to know what they are
21:59:21 <NihilistDandy> GreyKnight: All homework and take-home tests. I will learn it as I go, if I must. :D
21:59:27 <Bike> not so much the... wow, i don't even remember any of the method names
21:59:32 <Fiora> kmc: it was the standard risc pipeline I think
21:59:41 <Fiora> fetch, decode, ALU, memory, retire
22:00:13 <GreyKnight> I want to make a fully-specified objectivist language, but I have a problem
22:00:21 <Fiora> it was terrifying though. like we had an entire verilog mips chip thrown at us and I had almost never used verilog before
22:00:39 <Fiora> I realized at that point that the class, though advertised as a CS elective, was actually an engineering class and they really didn't tell the CS people what they were getting into <_>
22:00:56 <Fiora> but the class was still so much fun, I loved learning about things on like a wire by wire level
22:01:28 <GreyKnight> I would probably need to read up in order to find the right bits to make fun of, and my stomach isn't strong enough to survive one of Rand's books
22:01:35 <Bike> the main memory i have of arch class was the professor bringing in a vax internals "manual" he xeroxed illegally and bound with pieces of his girlfriend's jeans
22:02:29 <Bike> well, he got it from an official technician, and copied it himself so he could use it obviously
22:02:46 <Bike> but it was big enough to be a boo, so he grabbed some of his girlfriend-at-the-time's old jeans and made a makeshift book out of it
22:02:51 <Bike> a book. stupid keyboard
22:03:25 <Bike> it was full of circuit diagrams and stuff. he used it to write binary search in microcode.
22:04:45 <Bike> i'm not a bookmaker person, ok
22:05:37 -!- ogrom has joined.
22:05:52 <Fiora> GreyKnight: depends whether or not he was a motorcyclist I suppose
22:06:23 <Bike> i paid more attention to the machine stuff than to the jeans stuff, geez
22:07:23 <Bike> i got your first old man whathisname reference, not so much this one.
22:07:28 <GreyKnight> We didn't exactly mistake this place for #bookbinding either yanno :-P
22:07:49 <FireFly> #esoteric, home of everything but esolang discussion
22:08:31 <kmc> Fiora: that's terrifying
22:08:53 <kmc> the MIT intro processor architecture class (taken by most CS people) is pretty neat
22:09:04 <kmc> i did the labs for that
22:09:12 <kmc> did a 2-stage pipeline but anything more makes my head hurt
22:09:28 <elliott> quickly learning this approach was a mistake
22:09:34 <Fiora> that's really cool that they have most people take it
22:09:39 <Fiora> since this was just a side elective thing
22:09:59 <kmc> shachaf: I was wondering if you could replicate that IRC spambot thing using custom HTTP methods from XMLHttpRequest
22:10:00 <Fiora> our only required arch class was basically just memory, basic asm, debugging, stack smashing, how floats work, optimization...
22:10:01 <GreyKnight> elliott is on an emotional rollercoaster
22:10:01 <Bike> mit's always had EE and CS pretty integrated, hasn't it?
22:10:03 <Fiora> nothing, like, /wires/
22:10:19 <Bike> Fiora: maaaaan my class didn't even cover floats, i even asked ;_;
22:10:30 <ais523> Bike: that's because floats are insane
22:10:30 <kmc> but chrome forbids the port and firefox tries to do some cross origin request verification thing, which fails
22:10:42 <kmc> Bike: yeah, it is the same major
22:10:49 <Bike> ais523: yes, he basically said "we won't have time to cover everything but as a general rule don't jesus christ"
22:10:54 <elliott> why would you want to know more about floats
22:10:55 <GreyKnight> Real Programmers implement floats in the type system anyway
22:10:55 <kmc> this class (6.004) uses a simple gate-level digital logic simulation
22:10:56 <ais523> that's close to what I say too
22:10:59 <kmc> nowhere near as hairy as verilog
22:10:59 <ais523> but I go into detail if anyone asks
22:11:04 <kmc> but you do wire up individual gates
22:11:11 <kmc> it's a bit lower level than verilog really
22:11:19 <elliott> maybe float programming should be a separate degree
22:11:20 <Fiora> Bike: ouuch though what level was yours? ours was like a junior-level class ish
22:11:26 <Bike> i think sophomore
22:11:27 <elliott> and compilers require proof before letting you use floats
22:11:30 <Bike> elliott: "numerical analysis"
22:11:41 <GreyKnight> ais523, do you tell stories about floats around the campfire on Hallowe'en?
22:11:51 <ais523> no, I don't use campfires
22:11:55 <Bike> Fiora: also i was at a shitty side campus and the prof was fairly recently out of school.
22:11:59 <ais523> *I don't own a campfire
22:12:01 <olsner> FireFly: there was a brief discussion about compiling some bad optimization tips ... still not an esolang but at least some kind of "unuseful programming"
22:12:08 <Bike> I mean, I liked him
22:12:12 <Fiora> there was this little elective thing I did where we worked on like, laying out actual transistors and wires by hand
22:12:15 <Fiora> instead of like, verilog
22:12:30 <Fiora> we were apparently tasked with the smaller parts of a larger (senior) project to make an RSA chp of some sort
22:12:35 <Bike> Fiora: hand you some silicon and some acid and tell you to go nuts
22:12:41 <Fiora> but we learned how to lay out wires and transistors in... um...
22:12:46 <Fiora> I think it was called Electric
22:12:50 <Fiora> and dealing with all the design rules and stuff
22:12:53 <Fiora> it was actually really fun
22:13:13 <elliott> these overlapping instances are not good
22:13:17 <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
22:13:30 <GreyKnight> elliott, I think it needs more unsafeCoerce
22:13:34 <Fiora> http://www.staticfreesoft.com/ScreenShotBusy.png
22:13:42 <Fiora> it was kinda crazy
22:13:47 <ais523> `addquote <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
22:13:50 <HackEgo> 865) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
22:14:00 <Bike> Fiora: wow, it looks like an architecture class. like the kind with buildins.
22:14:15 * FireFly didn't see any police reindeer
22:14:21 <Fiora> Bike: it is a building!
22:14:24 <Fiora> a very very very very small building
22:14:39 <Bike> hm. considering how big computers were back in the day, i'll betcha there were buildings and microarchitectures designed at the same time at some point
22:14:57 <elliott> i don't get it. buildings are still designed??
22:15:19 <Bike> i remember hearing the first soviet mainframe was in some dilapidated cathedral in ukraine
22:15:27 <Bike> and when they turned it on it made half the building a sauna
22:15:46 <kmc> we had a freshman lab where you fabricate LEDs and transistors and shit
22:15:48 <kmc> mostly shit
22:16:05 <ais523> transistor fabrication? seriously?
22:16:05 <kmc> using the equipment that the labs had thrown out 15 years ago
22:16:29 <ais523> I was going to say; it's not that freshmen can't understand that, it's that the equipment needed for it is too expensive and specialised
22:16:30 <kmc> yeah, by the end of this 10 week freshman lab course, you nominally have fabricated a transistor
22:16:37 <kmc> they mostly did not work though
22:16:37 <ais523> do they actually /work/?
22:16:40 <kmc> and the class was pass-fail
22:16:43 * ais523 knows how to make a transistor in theory
22:16:47 <kmc> i think probably 5% - 10% of them worked
22:17:09 <kmc> we had a very crude photolithography setup
22:17:12 <ion> http://youtu.be/w_znRopGtbE
22:17:12 <ais523> random fun fact: in theory, transistors are symmetrical, you can swap the emitter and collector and they still work
22:17:20 <Fiora> doing photolithography in class
22:17:27 <ais523> in practice, they normally work better in one direction because there's no real market for invertible transistors
22:17:29 <GreyKnight> It's just like making a very tiny sandwich, except out of silicon :-U
22:17:37 <ais523> Fiora: I've done photo-etching of PCBs
22:17:38 <kmc> and some deposition furnaces
22:17:50 <ais523> but that's way less expensive, you can get the required material for a couple of hundred pounds
22:17:52 <Bike> all i can think of is the video i saw of a guy smelting tin with a campfire.
22:17:55 <Fiora> the only remotely coolish thing I ever got to do was making holograms
22:17:56 <kmc> some contraption that pulls a vacuum and then uses mucho current to vaporize some gold next to your wafer
22:18:02 <elliott> guys stop making me feel like i am missing out
22:18:11 <kmc> a lot of the class consisted of trying not to pour hydroflouric acid on your hands
22:18:15 <ais523> elliott: it's OK, you're younger than we were when we did these things
22:18:19 <elliott> (i need some kind of credible threat. deleting a brainfuck derivative??)
22:18:30 <ais523> so you can still make choices that allow you to do these things in the future
22:18:32 <elliott> ais523: hey, you don't know how old kmc is
22:18:35 <elliott> I don't know how old kmc is, in fact
22:18:43 <Bike> a brainfuck derivative based on photolithography, let's do it
22:18:44 <ais523> elliott: he said "freshman", which implies at least 18
22:18:46 <kmc> for the LED the masking was wax applied with a toothpick
22:18:48 <Fiora> and now I am reminded of destroying one of my shirts in chemistry lab with nitric acid <_<;;
22:18:49 <ais523> in pretty much any university
22:18:50 <kmc> i was 16 as a freshman actually
22:18:55 <GreyKnight> Oh no. Please, not the BF derivatives. Please, leave them alone.
22:18:55 <kmc> but yes most people were 18
22:19:01 <ais523> Fiora: that must have ben kind-of embarrassing
22:19:01 <Fiora> oh god kmc is like cosman
22:19:24 <kmc> american public school middle school is super useless
22:19:26 <ais523> I have a disability where I occasionally have nasty attention lapses
22:19:31 <Fiora> ais523: it was only enough to make like a small hole
22:19:32 <ais523> they had to have someone watching me in chemistry lab
22:19:34 <kmc> being able to skip two years of that is not a great sign of intelligence
22:19:34 <Bike> american public school is super useless?
22:19:36 <ais523> to make sure I didn't do anything stupid
22:19:37 <Fiora> but I mean, enough to consider it destroyed
22:19:53 <kmc> it's mostly a sign that your parents gave a shit and were willing to push for it
22:20:02 <ais523> kmc: my solution was to go a year ahead in several subjects, then do a year of more subjects in what should have been my final year
22:20:06 <kmc> also i took some high school science classes when i was 12 or so
22:20:09 <kmc> which was... interesting
22:20:20 <ais523> it gave me an extra year in school, more AS-levels than usual, and a reasonably empty timetable
22:20:21 <Bike> my parents didn't want me to skip too far ahead because they figured i'd be undersocialized. that sure worked out
22:20:36 <ais523> was the best time of my life so far, and probably always will be (and I realised at the time it was the best time of my life)
22:20:42 <kmc> that's cool ais523
22:20:47 <ais523> then I got into esolang development a year later
22:21:00 <ais523> I don't have nearly as much free time now as I did then, though
22:21:14 <ais523> actually, I think I discovered esolangs that year
22:21:21 <ais523> someone sent me a link to the 99 bottles of beer website
22:21:47 <GreyKnight> Don't worry Bike, you get to hang out with us? >_>
22:22:12 <Bike> irc, noted haven of within-sigma, well-adjusted human beings
22:22:24 <NihilistDandy> Had I known any better, I'd have dropped out of high school at 16 and gotten my GED
22:22:48 <ais523> Bike: we're better-adjusted here than most of IRC? I hope, at least
22:23:15 <ais523> NihilistDandy: American?
22:23:20 <Bike> my experience with "most of IRC" is people yelling about anime, and that happened here yesterday. check and mate
22:23:24 <GreyKnight> This is probably the sanest channel I've seen
22:23:36 <ais523> GreyKnight: depressing, isn't it?
22:24:28 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:25:09 <Bike> Is that supposed to indicate that your face has been mutilated or what?
22:25:28 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: var kings=new Array(3); for (x in kings) { kings[x].origin='orient'; kings[x].bearingGift=true; kings[x].travelled='afar'; }).
22:25:30 <elliott> i think the 's are eye sockets
22:25:49 <kmc> yeah i agree that being "socialized" involves having the right kind of people around
22:25:53 <ais523> what language is impompatic's quit message? JavaScript?
22:26:03 <kmc> like a lot of antisocial loner nerds become gregarious when they go to a place like tech school
22:26:07 <zzo38> ais523: I guess so?
22:26:08 <kmc> i think so yes
22:26:28 <kmc> but you shouldn't use "for (x in y)" without a hasOwnProperty check!
22:26:54 <kmc> otherwise you end up iterating through all the methods of Array too and up its prototype chain
22:28:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: zzznxxxrkc?).
22:28:23 <kmc> javascript is a toy language that escaped the lab, like most popular languages
22:28:34 <kmc> but it's closer to the kind of toy language i would have designed as a student, so i have a certain affection
22:28:37 <kmc> even though it's pretty gross
22:28:50 <elliott> Illegal polymorphic or qualified type:
22:28:57 <Bike> i like that thing where typeOf null is 'Object' or whatever
22:28:59 <elliott> this works with type synonyms why not with type families
22:29:03 <Bike> also where types are indicated with strings i guess
22:29:05 <GreyKnight> Shall I quote your C++ speech back with names changed? :o)
22:29:09 <kmc> the thing where foo[3] is foo['3'] and foo['x'] is foo.x... this makes me think like "cute feature for a toy language, but you shouldn't do it for real"
22:29:27 <Bike> ugh, it coerces numbers to strings?
22:29:42 <ais523> GreyKnight: I need to go home, can you mention Feather so I can make it look like a ragequit?
22:29:44 <kmc> well maybe not with that Array type
22:29:47 <Bike> oh and javascript numbers are all floats anyway, aren't they
22:29:50 <kmc> but in general, objects are key-value mappings
22:29:54 <kmc> Bike: yeah
22:29:58 <kmc> and the keys are all strings
22:30:15 <kmc> a lot of websites will break if you register a user named hasOwnProperty
22:30:43 <kmc> or __proto__
22:30:53 -!- kmc has changed nick to __proto__.
22:30:56 <Bike> oh,that's the prototype of an object?
22:30:57 -!- __proto__ has changed nick to kmc.
22:30:59 <kmc> bah registered
22:31:03 <Bike> since it has some weird Self thing going on
22:31:11 <ais523> kmc: also Freenode's ircd probably isn't written in JS
22:31:14 <GreyKnight> I did it on #acehack, it's funnier there IMO
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22:31:16 <kmc> ais523: you think?
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22:31:38 <elliott> kmc: i think you broke ais523
22:31:42 <Bike> if i mention feather now, do the properties of feather mean that, retroactively speaking, it did make him ragequit?
22:31:51 <zzo38> Some codes I have seen will put a space at front so that it doesn't cause those problems
22:31:53 <Sgeo> kmc... crud, I should try to figure out how not to break. Not sure if my code breaks, but ... that seems like a PITA
22:32:13 <Sgeo> I guess you're saying if I store users as keys on some object, the object might behave weirdly?
22:32:17 <zzo38> Do you like this music? http://zynaddsubfx.sourceforge.net/doc/PADsynth/demos/noefx_organ_choir.ogg
22:33:25 <zzo38> That code I have seen which did that, was a not a webpage, but it doesn't matter either way that is how you can do, put a space at front of the keys.
22:33:38 <Bike> Sgeo: and then you have a user whose name is a key the object already has
22:33:50 <Sgeo> :( my code is vulnerable
22:34:10 <Bike> isn't your code something that uses php for local communication or something
22:34:15 <Bike> i think maybe it was already vulnerable
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22:35:02 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: we can rebuild it. We have the technology.
22:35:23 <kmc> in the latest whiz bang version of ECMAScript there are associative data structures you can use
22:35:51 <Bike> «Ben Nadel demonstrates that the hasOwnProperty() method is more consistent than Javascript's IN operator; the major difference being that...» see "consistency" seems like a weird-ass standard
22:35:53 <kmc> http://www.devthought.com/2012/01/18/an-object-is-not-a-hash/
22:36:12 <Bike> it's not a fucking chaotic system, it's javascript!
22:37:04 <Bike> well it ought not to be, in happy pony danceland.
22:37:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:38:19 <Bike> http://www.bennadel.com/blog/1919-Javascript-s-hasOwnProperty-Method-Is-More-Consistent-Than-The-IN-Operator.htm blaghaghagh
22:38:46 -!- Sgeo|web has joined.
22:39:06 <elliott> "And, of course, as Ben Alman pointed out, you can always use the typeof() function to check the type of objects you are dealing with before making use of the IN operator."
22:39:19 <kmc> mwahaha so many good exploits in this book
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22:39:57 <Bike> kmc: the ecmascript standard?
22:39:58 <kmc> embed an image in a web forum which is served from your server, which responds with 401 Unauthorized
22:40:02 <kmc> this websec book i am reading
22:40:21 <kmc> the user will see a password dialog and enter their forum password
22:40:27 <Bike> drat, i'll have to rework that joke
22:41:05 <Bike> "Great article, however this danger only applies if you use obj.hasOwnProperty(prop) instead of a simple obj[prop] check, e.g. if you need to work with nulls" welp.
22:41:06 <Sgeo|web> Is prepending "user_" in front of user names internally a good way to deal with the issue?
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22:41:42 <Sgeo|web> That post seems to think so, at least
22:41:44 <Bike> "dude, I didn’t even read the article lol… but this site design is great! i especially like the good use of circles."
22:42:08 <GreyKnight> It would stop them conflicting with standardly-inherited properties, seems like it should solve it
22:42:39 <GreyKnight> "I especially like the good use of circles" is going to be a phrase now
22:42:47 <Bike> Sgeo|web: as i understand, you're good until a new builtin property user_hasOwnProperty shows up
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22:43:12 <kmc> Bike: lol web community
22:43:34 <Sgeo|web> I wonder if Clojure maps are safe from this or not
22:43:49 <Sgeo|web> Where those store data, exactly
22:44:06 <elliott> pretty sure no language but like js and lua suffer from this dumbness
22:44:09 <Bike> is clojure OO prototype-based? (i doubt it, i don't think that would work great with the jvm)
22:44:14 <GreyKnight> I thought Clojure was on top of the JVM?
22:44:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:45:04 <Sgeo|web> By Clojure I meant ClojureScript
22:45:23 * kmc takes a shot
22:45:44 <Sgeo|web> A Clojure-like language that compiles to Javascript
22:46:12 <GreyKnight> elliott: lua's tables are actually empty by default, so you'd have to go out of your way to fall down this sort of hole
22:46:40 <elliott> isn't there that metatable stuff
22:47:25 <GreyKnight> Metatable fields are separate from the actual fields (partly to avoid exactly this problem)
22:48:04 <Bike> i suppose that would be like if javascript object prototype fields were separate from the actual fields.
22:48:11 <Bike> in which case, we return to my earlier "welp"
22:48:58 <Bike> kmc: oh, javascript doesn't even wrap thrown strings in some SimpleError class or w/e, huh
22:49:13 <GreyKnight> I didn't understand the earlier "welp"
22:49:21 -!- ogrom has joined.
22:49:41 <Bike> alternately, i was just thinking about the earlier bike-pretends-to-understand-monads halfconversation
22:50:02 -!- Sgeo|web has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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22:52:14 <Bike> then i'm afraid you are unworthy.
22:56:13 <lambdabot> dxq says: i am not a very quotable person
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22:58:25 <elliott> Couldn't match type `Head [Bool] bss0'
22:58:25 <elliott> with `(':) Bool 'False ('[] Bool)'
22:58:47 <Bike> i'm just going to guess that this is actually your attempt to upgrade the wiki, and it's just gone terribly terribly wrong.
22:59:36 <Bike> "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account"
22:59:48 <GreyKnight> If upgrading the wiki has led to wacky adventures in Haskell typespace then we've gone straight through "terribly wrong" and out the other side
23:00:41 <elliott> Bike: well I have at times considered just reimplementing mediawiki in haskell because of how awful it is to maintain
23:00:59 <Bike> has nobody done that yet?
23:01:09 <Bike> well, written a wiki, anyway, mediawiki proper would be terrible to port
23:01:12 <Bike> why would it be awful
23:01:29 <GreyKnight> I'll help with my sub-mediocre Haskell skills
23:01:55 <GreyKnight> Bike: do you know how to shot Haskell?
23:02:28 <Bike> i've never shot haskell in my life
23:02:31 <Bike> isn't he dead...,
23:02:52 <elliott> gmap :: (('[x,y] ?? ts) bss) => (forall z. Spec ts z z) -> (x,y) -> (x,y)
23:02:52 <elliott> gmap f (a,b) = (spec f a, spec f b)
23:03:12 <GreyKnight> Haskell motherlover, do you speak it?!
23:03:42 <Bike> "motherlover"? ewgh
23:05:02 <ion> father mocker
23:05:05 <kmc> this is what happens when you find a stranger in the alps
23:05:19 <GreyKnight> `addquote <Bike> "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account"
23:05:22 <HackEgo> 866) <Bike> "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account"
23:06:00 <elliott> oh shit I need some way to change types I think
23:06:06 <elliott> ...ok let's not go down that route
23:06:28 <elliott> oh hm... this needs some way of representing order too
23:06:30 <elliott> GreyKnight: commit?? hahahaha
23:06:39 <elliott> i don't even have a directory
23:06:41 <elliott> this is all going into ~/tmp
23:06:52 <GreyKnight> Either it needs committed or else you do :-P
23:07:33 <elliott> hmm this might break when i add the type family :(
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23:09:39 <elliott> there's already haskell wiki software
23:09:56 <Bike> "Yesod (web framework)" what is even going on with haskell naming
23:10:16 <Bike> "House is an acronym for the Haskell User's Operating System and Environment" okay nevermind, it's the same as usual.
23:10:26 <GreyKnight> elliott: If we can make a befunge wiki can we replace the mediawiki installation with it?!?
23:10:39 <elliott> oh shit it doesn't even recursively drill down yet
23:10:48 <Bike> if we can make a befunge wiki i'm pretty sure we'll be able to take the world hostage
23:11:23 <Bike> oh, i should find that wiki i found written in shell again, primarily because what
23:11:32 <GreyKnight> I just tried to pronounce anagracronym and nearly bit my tongue
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23:12:45 <NihilistDandy> Bike: Yesod means foundation, but it cannot also be translated as "I am Snoyman, *smash*"
23:14:00 <NihilistDandy> In that it is a system that operates. But it's not what you'd call an operating system.
23:14:14 <Bike> it says it's experimental, which in operating system terms means it doesn't work
23:14:38 <Bike> there's always that haskell-verified (TM) L6 kernel instead, anyway
23:15:24 <elliott> that didn't actually use haskell did it
23:15:29 <elliott> oh they prototyped it in haskell
23:15:54 <Bike> haskell was involved, and that's what's important for the marketing copyo!
23:16:35 <Bike> don't mock me :(
23:17:09 <NihilistDandy> YOU MOCK COPYO?! COPYO WILL SHOW YOUR BUTT TO YOUR BOSS!
23:17:17 <GreyKnight> copyo, n. When you accidentally highlight something and copy it into your clipboard, overwriting something you already had stored there.
23:18:29 <NihilistDandy> Started using clipboard history, and now I still do it but it takes longer to use the history than to just go an recopy the other thing.
23:19:18 <elliott> looks like i have to redesign this stuff
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23:20:19 <Bike> it's like you're already a webdev
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23:21:54 <elliott> Cycle in class declaration (via superclasses): Gen -> Gen
23:21:56 <Bike> you know, greyknight, i think the first rule of modern language design is actually "fuck php"
23:22:04 <elliott> never before have i felt such despair
23:22:06 <GreyKnight> Bah I can't be bothered finishing this joke
23:22:09 <Bike> just throwing that out there
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23:22:50 <GreyKnight> The first rule of modern language design is "You don't talk about modern language design"
23:27:49 <HackEgo> 331) <zzo38> Finally I found the wand of electric lightning now we can destroy any large object if it needs to be destroyed and is required to use a such a wand for that purpose.
23:28:51 <GreyKnight> It's sentences like that which make me think zzo38 might be a machine
23:29:21 <kmc> that is a brilliant sentence
23:30:54 <HackEgo> 369) <Sgeo_> "system is fairly sane <Sgeo_> <elliott> imagine if the roomba was called the Robotic Magic Vacuum <Sgeo_> <elliott> would you object to that being trademarked <Sgeo_> <monqy> I mean <Sgeo_> <monqy> phrase trade" <Sgeo_> oops
23:31:17 <kmc> you know, i think the first rule of modern language design is actually "fuck up"
23:32:23 <GreyKnight> kmc: have you ever used the IceChat client?
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23:39:10 <Sgeo> At this poijnt I'm kind of tempted to wipe Windows
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23:54:13 <shachaf> kmc: Doesn't XMLHttpRequest never let you make a cross-domain request?
23:54:41 <shachaf> Oh, you said more than the one line /last showed.
23:56:10 <sgeo> At least I now have a real IRC client
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23:59:40 <lambdabot> Data.Data.Data a => (forall b. Data.Data.Data b => b -> b) -> a -> a
00:01:10 <lambdabot> (Typeable b, Typeable a) => (b -> b) -> a -> a
00:01:31 <lambdabot> System.IO mkTextEncoding :: String -> IO TextEncoding
00:01:31 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Encoding mkTextEncoding :: String -> IO TextEncoding
00:01:31 <lambdabot> Data.Typeable mkTyCon :: String -> TyCon
00:02:14 <elliott> > Data.Data.gmapT (Data.Generics.mkT (\(x::Int) -> x+2)) (3::Int)
00:02:15 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `Data.Data.gmapT'Not in scope: `Data.Generics.mkT'
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00:07:50 <sgeo> I wish I understood CL's condition stuff well enough to understand how Factor's differs
00:08:23 <Bike> what's to understand
00:08:55 <shachaf> > over biplate (\(x::Int) -> x+2) (3::Int)
00:09:47 <sgeo> How to define what happens when a restart is chosen (that's set in CL using some macro, I think?)
00:10:23 <Bike> you just bind a thunk to the restart name.
00:10:35 <sgeo> Factor's system is basically: When you throw, include a bunch of strings and values, the throw will, if a restart is chosen, return one of the values
00:11:43 <sgeo> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-throw-restarts%2Ccontinuations.html
00:12:29 <sgeo> I don't actually see a real mechanism to catch these :/
00:13:17 <kmc> :t over biplate
00:13:18 <lambdabot> (Data.Data.Data t, Typeable b) => (b -> b) -> t -> t
00:13:24 <Bike> it seems like cl's, except that in cl you can do arbitrary actions instead of just returning a value.
00:14:01 <Bike> oh, and you can't define handlers? I don't see any, and it talks about the top level.
00:14:22 <elliott> shachaf: does biplate act like gmapT there though
00:14:32 <elliott> I'm wondering whether gmapT map over the "root"
00:14:40 <sgeo> Well, the debugger talks about :res which calls restart
00:14:54 <Bike> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-recover%2Ccontinuations.htmloh, there we go.
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00:15:40 <sgeo> Bike, it's still not clear from that how that would be used to resume
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00:19:36 <sgeo> I don't think it can be
00:21:07 <Bike> yeah, the debugger page seems to imply you can only resume from well, the debugger.
00:21:45 <sgeo> The debugger's written in Factor (I assume)
00:21:50 <sgeo> So there has to be a way
00:22:16 <kmc> http://goatkcd.com/1146/sfw [nsfw]
00:22:49 <Bike> http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-restart%2Ccontinuations.html oh duh, :res has the implementation right there.
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00:35:02 <kmc> i guarantee you that it is less sfw if you remove "/sfw"
00:35:07 <kmc> also less funny and more gross
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00:49:24 <elliott> does gmapT f x run f on x first
00:49:29 <elliott> maybe i should ask #haskell
00:50:33 <kmc> maybe you should test it
00:51:45 <elliott> Prelude Data.Data Data.Generics> gmapT (mkT (\(xs::[Int]) -> reverse xs)) [1,2,3,4::Int]
00:52:10 <elliott> [1,2,3,4] -> [1,2,4,3] -> [1,3,4,2] -> [2,4,3,1] I would have understood
00:52:41 <elliott> ok I admit I have no idea what semantics gmapT actually uses, it baffles me
00:52:53 <shachaf> Prelude Data.Generics Data.Data> everywhere (mkT $ do reverse :: [Int] -> [Int]) [1,2,3,4::Int]
00:53:07 <elliott> gmapT (mkT (\(x::Int) -> x+3)) (4::Int)
00:53:10 <elliott> it applies it to the whole 4
00:53:14 <elliott> but here reverse doesn't get applied to the whole list
00:53:24 <elliott> it doesn't apply +3 to the 4
00:53:48 <elliott> so it applies the transformation to all the immediate children, and not itself
00:54:03 <elliott> I guess you can build everywhere from gmapT?
00:54:28 <elliott> \f -> f . gmapT (everywhere f) apparently
00:54:38 <shachaf> Have you seen the SYB documentation?
00:54:44 <shachaf> These slides are good: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/papers/hmap/Boilerplate%20v3.ppt
00:55:00 <elliott> I've read them but then I forgot it all.
00:55:13 <elliott> I sort of hate how all the SYB machinery is crap at implementation hiding.
00:55:23 <elliott> So you end up writing code depending on the implementation details of all the types you're using.
00:55:57 <kmc> i like that we now live in a world where the Pope tweets things and immediately gets responses like "@Pontifex you are a huge bummer, dude"
00:55:57 <sgeo> elliott, Phantom__Hoover Fiora udpate
00:56:42 <sgeo> Bike, the big question is how does it manage to catch the exception. I think
00:57:27 <elliott> hm can you even give a default definition for an ATF
00:57:28 <Bike> sgeo: that seems to be what Recover is for.
00:57:43 <sgeo> ...it occurs to me that just because recover's stack effect says something, does not mean it cannot use restart, especially since restart will resume a continuation
00:58:06 <sgeo> Bike, I was taking recover's stack effect too seriously
01:00:04 <kmc> waiting now for the Pope to do a Reddit AMA
01:00:05 <elliott> kmc: btw I ended up fixing that (??) I pasted
01:00:05 <elliott> type family (??) (xs :: [*]) (ts :: [*]) (bss :: [[Bool]]) :: Constraint
01:00:06 <elliott> type instance ('[] ?? ts) bss = ()
01:00:06 <elliott> type instance ((x ': xs) ?? ts) bss = (bss ~ (Head bss ': Tail bss), (x ? ts) (Head bss), (xs ?? ts) (Tail bss))
01:00:13 <kmc> elliott: oh well it's all clear now
01:00:42 <kmc> less of a type family and more of a type frenemy
01:00:42 <elliott> the bss is basically a "variable supply" here that the typeclasses can hang the type equality results off
01:01:02 <elliott> but you avoid passing it a bunch of type variables explicitly by having it constrain that there must be a bunch
01:01:25 <elliott> slowly coming to terms with the fact that I am a genius
01:01:30 <kmc> we all are
01:02:35 <elliott> this (??) stuff doesn't infer terribly well though; I might have to make it a typeclass instead
01:05:29 <kmc> shachaf: what's a pirate's favorite locale?
01:06:29 <elliott> this typeclass version seems to infer worse
01:06:32 <kmc> arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr_SO.UTF-8
01:08:27 <elliott> the problem is mainly in the list deconstruction
01:10:07 <kmc> shachaf: did you see http://overstated.net/2007/02/01/san-francisco-guide-to-new-york-neighborhoo
01:10:14 <kmc> http://overstated.net/2007/02/01/san-francisco-guide-to-new-york-neighborhoods
01:10:52 <Bike> "Wherever Giuliani put it"
01:12:41 <elliott> btw i could avoid all this hackery if there was a type equality type family
01:14:49 <elliott> maybe I can use a restricted TypeEq that doesn't give access to the result
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01:18:31 <elliott> I bet this is inefficient though
01:18:59 <Bike> if i may venture a question
01:19:03 <Bike> what the hell are you doing
01:19:29 <elliott> Bike: I am so deep in this mess I have no idea how to explain it to another person
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01:19:57 <Bike> my commiserations
01:20:08 <elliott> Bike: I can assure you I have no practical use for it though
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01:22:09 <elliott> oh, I think I broke it again
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01:22:37 <Bike> that was a given
01:23:19 <sgeo> If I'm going to play with Factor, I should probably download and install it
01:25:37 <elliott> shachaf: Does SYB support doing things like reversing every list in a structure, regardless of the element type of the list?
01:25:42 <elliott> Maybe I should read the docs.
01:29:50 <sgeo> I just thought of a fun/evil use for lmgtfy
01:30:33 <sgeo> Suppose I want to encourage some online community to vote on some online poll
01:30:38 <elliott> *Main> everywhere bleh "hello world"
01:30:40 <elliott> Prelude Data.Generics> everywhere (mkT (reverse::String->String)) "hello world"
01:30:45 <elliott> I think i did it wrong. :(
01:30:56 <sgeo> If I link directly to the poll, it will show up in the logs that I linked them
01:31:03 <sgeo> (We're assuming the online community is web-based)
01:31:24 <Bike> elliott: this system is fucking mystifying
01:31:44 <sgeo> If I use a referer stripper, it will look suspicious that so many people knew the exact URL of the poll
01:31:52 <elliott> Bike: I have a 270 line source file that only mystifies it further
01:31:52 <shachaf> elliott: Well, it reverses the list but then descends into its children.
01:32:03 <sgeo> So, link to the Google search results, this way it looks like all these people googled for it
01:32:21 <sgeo> But, if they come from the same Google search URL, that would also look odd. So... hm
01:32:23 <shachaf> > over biplate (reverse::String->String) ("hello there", 1, "hi")
01:32:38 <elliott> oh, my "everywhere" was actually "every two wheres"
01:33:00 <elliott> everywhere f x = spec f (gmap f x)
01:33:07 <elliott> I'll need to make it actually transform Specs, I guess
01:33:11 <sgeo> Actually, lmgtfy results in a google search page, but that search page would also have a suspicious URL
01:33:22 <sgeo> So so much for lmgtfy helping
01:46:31 <lambdabot> Data.Data.Data a => (forall b. Data.Data.Data b => b -> b) -> a -> a
01:48:02 <sgeo> Factor won't start :(
01:51:28 <Bike> isn't it a dumbassproof one file thing
01:52:02 <Bike> oh you know wwhat, as long as elliott is reaching new frontiers into digging holes type safely, nother dumb haskell question
01:52:16 <Bike> i'm guessing any real compiler is going to have some kind of structure to represent types. is that true?
01:53:06 <shachaf> As opposed to what, not representing types in any structure?
01:54:14 <kmc> that is true
01:54:30 <shachaf> It seems true but I'm not sure I understood the question.
01:54:35 <kmc> it will have structures to represent types, functions, modules, etc.
01:54:39 <kmc> all the stuff what makes up a program
01:54:50 <kmc> that's true of any compiler, not just haskell compilers
01:55:14 <Bike> well, would say a C compiler need something to represent "int"?
01:55:36 <kmc> as opposed to just skipping over the word "int" wherever it appears?
01:55:56 <Bike> no, just, having some kind of structure with information about int-ness doesn't seem necessary to me
01:55:59 <kmc> a C compiler needs to be able to represent types like "pointer to pointer to int" and "pointer to function which takes three floats and returns an int"
01:56:09 <Bike> oh, that's true
01:56:29 <kmc> sure, you could have a compiler where primitive types are represented by bare integers
01:56:38 <kmc> int = 1, float = 2, char = 3, whatever
01:56:57 <kmc> but you need to represent also composite types like arrays and functions and pointers
01:57:16 <kmc> as well as qualifiers such as signed/unsigned, const/volatile/restrict, etc
01:57:28 <kmc> also functions themselves, not just pointers to, are types
01:57:29 <Bike> so, badly considered question. thanks
01:57:49 <elliott> data VagueApproximationOfACType = Int | Char | Ptr VagueApprosdfjoisdType | Struct [(String,VagueAOoisadjoijknCpttypke)] | stuff
01:58:00 <kmc> great code
01:58:34 <Arc_Koen> is there a language that shines by its lack of typing?
01:58:36 <kmc> you can do: typedef int f(float); f* p;
01:58:51 <kmc> there are languages with only one type
01:58:57 <shachaf> Is kmc one of the people who says "type* value;"?
01:59:02 <kmc> shachaf: sometimes
01:59:18 <kmc> Arc_Koen: for example in shell the only type is string pretty much
01:59:34 <Arc_Koen> I was thinking more something like "C where every variable is a union"
01:59:37 <kmc> in perl, types are not so much a property of variables as how you decide to use them
01:59:49 <Bike> that doesn't really mean not having types
01:59:50 <kmc> an *unchecked* union?
01:59:57 <Bike> i mean, the whole point of that would be casts...
01:59:58 <shachaf> I like the thing where you can say (********p)(x).
02:00:07 <Arc_Koen> not sure what unchecked means, but yeah, I guess
02:00:35 <elliott> you get a stack of machine words and what they mean depends entirely on what you do with them
02:01:01 <Arc_Koen> by words you don't mean the same thing as forth words right?
02:01:02 <elliott> even a string literal (actually implemented in forth itself) just pushes an addreses and length on the stack and the string operations consume that
02:01:06 <elliott> actually maybe it pushes something else, I forget what
02:01:13 <elliott> I mean machine words i.e. an integer of a certain size
02:01:24 <elliott> x86 has 32-bit machine words, x86-64 has 64-bit machine words
02:01:41 <shachaf> elliott: You need more Microsoft in your life.
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02:02:27 <Bike> what, to confuse the meaning of "word"?
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02:18:07 <Fiora> of course for intel words are 16-bit!
02:18:23 <Fiora> and 32-bit is a dword and 64-bit is a qword and 128-bit is a doublequadword (not an octoword)
02:18:26 <Fiora> and 256-bit is a quadquadword
02:18:34 <Fiora> or actually no 256-bit is a doubledoublequadword
02:18:39 <Bike> that sounds about as dumb as quavers
02:19:06 <Bike> hemidemisemiquave
02:19:18 <Bike> is a sixty-fourth note, in music
02:19:41 <Fiora> intel is actually made up of musicians
02:19:50 <Arc_Koen> what are you, some alien with the absolute ear?
02:20:21 <elliott> oh I read quavers as quakers
02:20:29 <elliott> and I thought Bike just really hated them friends
02:21:21 <Arc_Koen> I believe I have some of those somewhere in the house and it's pretty cold here and it's a damn good diea
02:22:02 <Bike> no i'm cool with quakers
02:24:37 <sgeo> I'm sure it's possible to write a throw-restarts like thing that does quotations instead of just returning a value
02:24:42 <sgeo> ...actually, hmm
02:26:28 <Bike> sgeo: you have call/cc, you can do whatever the hell you want
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02:27:43 <sgeo> I'm just not sure that the stack effect could be made to work
02:34:40 <kmc> doubledoublequadword animal style
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02:37:27 <Fiora> lddqu, "load double double quadword unaligned", does not actually load a double double quad word
02:37:37 <kmc> http://twitter.com/Pope_ebooks yessssss
02:37:50 <kmc> the wisdom of crowds has brought this to me
02:38:17 <elliott> why did the pope have to make a twitter account to get an _ebooks
02:38:23 <elliott> pretty sure the pope has said other things in the past already?????
02:38:38 <Bike> yes but were they in a machine/idiot-readable format
02:39:08 <elliott> i still think you have to give him credit for picking a cool name
02:39:13 <Phantom__Hoover> the vatican has obviously cracked open the Big Book of Catholic Platitudes
02:39:21 <elliott> how many names are there that (a) sound cool and (b) are pop-related
02:39:45 <elliott> come on Phantom__Hoover you know people were telling him to go with The_Pope_Official_Vatican or some shit
02:39:47 <Bike> "PopeBenedictXIV" is kind of boring
02:39:50 <elliott> but he was having none of that
02:39:53 <Bike> am i missing something here
02:40:17 <elliott> http://twitter.com/pontifex
02:40:26 <elliott> http://twitter.com/PopeBenedictXIV looks like some silly imitator or something
02:40:36 <Fiora> he should make his name xXxPoPeBeNeDiCt-XIVXxXx
02:40:36 <kmc> @TheP_Rizzle_Fo_Shizzle
02:40:39 <Phantom__Hoover> "Any suggestions on how to be more prayerful when we are so busy with the demands of work, families and the world?"
02:40:46 <Bike> oh, well, pontifex is "just" latin
02:40:55 <Bike> he kind of has an easy out there, i mean, everything sounds cool in latin
02:41:04 <kmc> if he starts tweeting in pontifex cipher i will be impressed
02:41:16 <elliott> maybe the pope just really loves him some bridges
02:41:29 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: hahaha wow i didn't even notice that
02:41:43 <elliott> was the pope properly briefed on this twitter thing beforehand
02:42:14 <Bike> unlikely, it's pretty hard to accidentally use it
02:42:19 <kmc> these days the infallibity only kicks in on special occasions
02:42:30 <kmc> it's just like freenode
02:42:43 <kmc> you might have operator privileges but you don't op up unless shit is getting real
02:43:05 <Bike> the pope is of course known for his intervention in realistic shit situations.
02:43:14 <elliott> /mode +o pontifex etc. etc. etc.
02:43:15 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Conditions_for_teachings_being_declared_infallible
02:43:21 <Fiora> apparently it only applies in specific cases
02:43:29 <Fiora> "is predecessor Pope John XXIII once remarked: "I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible"."
02:43:43 <kmc> that sounds like something zzo38 would say
02:43:53 <kmc> i would subscribe to @zzo38_ebooks
02:44:03 <Bike> theology tends to make one similarly robotic at times
02:44:04 <Fiora> I like that response, it's like "this doctrine is dumb" without actually saying "this doctrine is dumb"
02:45:54 <kmc> This pope likes hexadecimal.
02:45:59 <kmc> This pope is an advanced TI-BASIC programmer.
02:46:43 <Fiora> "The limitation on the pope's infallibility "on other matters" is frequently illustrated by Cardinal James Gibbons's recounting how the pope mistakenly called him Jibbons."
02:46:54 <kmc> i put some onions inside my trousers
02:59:30 <zzo38> I also read somewhere that the Catholics who do not agree of pope infallibility are called Old Catholics.
02:59:45 <zzo38> kmc: I have no ebooks which can subscribe to
03:00:45 <Bike> it's one of a few reasons old catholicism split, yeah
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03:01:52 <zzo38> Of course not all of the popes agree of pope infallibility either; some of them were against it, but some were for it.
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03:19:02 <shachaf> kmc: You should make a Twitter account of zzo38 quotes.
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03:22:47 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> i would subscribe to @zzo38_ebooks <zzo38> kmc: I have no ebooks which can subscribe to
03:22:55 <HackEgo> 867) <kmc> i would subscribe to @zzo38_ebooks <zzo38> kmc: I have no ebooks which can subscribe to
03:24:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you have a newsletter?
03:24:16 <HackEgo> 386) <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, living in the future sucks. <Phantom_Hoover> The past just keeps coming up to us and trying to make us feel guilty.
03:24:16 <HackEgo> 703) <itidus21> the possession of diamonds by the bourgeois is more about establishing their bourgeoisness more than wanting a malleable metal <itidus21> oops i forgot i said diamonds instead of gold
03:24:16 <HackEgo> 642) <oerjan> shachaf: wait, _you_ are in northumberland? <shachaf> No. <oerjan> whew <oerjan> we don't have room for more esolangers there. <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, *you* are in Northumberland? <oerjan> no <shachaf> Whew. <shachaf> We don't have room for more esolangers there.
03:24:17 <HackEgo> 170) <Sgeo> Hmm. I want to try vanilla extract now, but I don't want the alcohol
03:24:17 <HackEgo> 760) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
03:24:26 <sgeo> zzo38, there is a Twitter account called horse_ebooks which appears to be a spam account, and says bizarre and hilarious things quite often.
03:25:00 <sgeo> "This Is Your Golden Opportunity To Build Yourself An Endless Line Of HOT PRODUCTS In Your Name And Make A Fortune From Existing"
03:25:09 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't publish a newspapes.
03:25:15 <shachaf> monqy: I used mephitic cloud once.
03:25:20 <HackEgo> 191) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
03:25:52 <Bike> I think Scrabble for Racists is still my favorite.
03:26:08 <zzo38> OK, then play Scrabble for Racists.
03:26:30 <Bike> Are you insinuating something about me, zzo38?
03:26:34 <shachaf> I would play Professional Octopus of the World.
03:27:15 <kmc> best of horse ebooks: http://favstar.fm/users/Horse_ebooks
03:27:41 <Bike> can't we just read horse_ecomics?
03:28:01 <shachaf> kmc: Don't you feel bad about how it gets you to look at advertisements?
03:28:33 <Bike> I look forward to an era of advertisers giving up on ads, and giving me endless co-opted-dada entertainment instead.
03:28:49 <kmc> where did Scrabble for Racists come from?
03:28:58 <kmc> also zzo38 can you generate some more random game names
03:29:02 <kmc> because those two are pretty great
03:29:17 <kmc> you know that an octopus does not have direct control of its arms
03:29:26 <kmc> it sends them general instructions and waits to see what they do
03:29:33 <kmc> could be a good card game mechanic
03:30:30 <Bike> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ChY6bCULLY
03:30:42 <zzo38> If you want those name you can just use the same program.
03:30:48 <kmc> i want to make a fortune from existing
03:30:57 <zzo38> It is one of the FurryScript archive files.
03:32:02 <kmc> one-dimensional chess
03:32:57 <HackEgo> 359) <elliott> It's a Toy Story character, you uncultured fuck.
03:32:57 <HackEgo> 597) <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.imgur.com/dosYw.png <Phantom_Hoover> WELCOME TO FUCKING STEELROMANCED
03:32:58 <HackEgo> 384) <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nope, I removed . from the current directory
03:32:58 <HackEgo> 191) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly)
03:33:13 <Bike> whoa! this must be a sign
03:33:15 <kmc> 1:13: steve brule impression?
03:33:35 <sgeo> kmc, oh, that's awesome. Before I clicked the link, I thought it was manually curated horse_ebooks quotes
03:34:13 <Bike> pff, manually. the cloud can rate everything.
03:34:23 <kmc> the wisdom of crowds.
03:34:28 <kmc> slash clouds
03:34:38 <kmc> frash prugin
03:34:44 <Bike> what a shocking bad hat! *laugh track*
03:34:46 <sgeo> Oh come on, past a certain point it wants me to get a pro membership
03:35:00 <Bike> a pro membership to a retweeter
03:35:08 <Bike> the future is a beautiful place slash time slash cloud
03:36:05 <kmc> slash balls
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03:40:53 <elliott> Bike: is this a special kind of future which occurs in the present
03:42:28 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1C9Q5JheOE yes.
03:42:33 <Bike> i am just made of youtube videos today.
03:44:57 <Arc_Koen> do you mean like, the earth just VAPORIZED??
03:45:15 <elliott> Bike: is the telltale sam and max stuff any good
03:45:21 <Arc_Koen> can you be more precise as to whether that's the near future or the distant future
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03:45:30 <Arc_Koen> just so I know how much time I have to tell that girl I love her
03:45:45 <Bike> elliott: well i like the songs but i'm not much of an "actually playing video games" type
03:49:27 <elliott> Bike: thank you for your extensive input
03:51:51 <Fiora> I've heard they're really good but I've only played like two of them
03:52:16 <Fiora> they're very silly and very funny adventure games
03:52:43 * elliott played the original LucasArts one ~a billion years ago.
03:53:21 <Fiora> they also don't tend to have totally absurd impossible to figure out puzzles
03:53:35 <Fiora> like cat moustaches
03:53:53 <shachaf> What's the matter with cat moustaches?!
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04:08:24 <Bike> i wonder how many people have actually played that game
04:09:37 <Bike> Gabriel Knight 3.
04:09:52 <shachaf> I thought we were talking about Sam 'n' Max
04:10:06 <Bike> The game the cat moustache thing is fom.
04:10:09 <shachaf> @let sam'n'max :: Bounded a => (a,a); sam'n'max = (minBound,maxBound)
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04:10:39 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
04:10:40 <shachaf> > uncurry (+) sam'n'max :: Int
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04:13:23 <shachaf> I wonder whether MedeaMelana saw my recent Reddit comment.
04:13:32 <Bike> That doesn't seem like a very sincere apology!
04:14:06 <shachaf> Bike: Once in 2003 someone made a really, really sincere apology.
04:14:15 <shachaf> It's so sincere that I just quote it instead of making my own.
04:14:19 <shachaf> I have no hope of matching that one.
04:18:45 <shachaf> fnow :: Monoid m => m -> FHM m a a
04:18:46 <shachaf> fnow m k d = k (\m' -> d (m <> m'))
04:18:46 <shachaf> flater :: Monoid m => (a -> m) -> FHM m b (a -> b)
04:18:46 <shachaf> flater am k d a = k (\m' -> d (am a <> m'))
04:18:46 <shachaf> frun :: Monoid m => FHM m m a -> a
04:18:48 <shachaf> frun fhm = fhm ($ mempty) id
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04:32:25 <HackEgo> 710) <fizzie> Stupid W|A doesn't even understand "Vatican papal density". (As far as countries go, they've got a quite high one.)
04:32:26 <HackEgo> 400) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
04:32:26 <HackEgo> 436) <itidus20> australia kicks ass <itidus20> we have kangaroos and DMM and isn't afraid of anything
04:32:28 <HackEgo> 473) <itidus20> software patents strike again <ais523_> that's got to be at least three times, now <ais523_> are they out yet?
04:33:28 <elliott> (what's the point of asking if you're not going to wait for a reply?)
04:33:45 <shachaf> Please `revert as appropriate.
04:33:50 <shachaf> They were 20 long seconds!
04:34:13 <shachaf> Common Desktop Environment?
04:36:58 <kmc> should i be surprised that iti got the quote / meme wrong
04:37:05 <kmc> the answer is no, i should not
04:37:15 <elliott> kmc: why else would it be in the qdb
04:38:00 <HackEgo> 602) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 633) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 705) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 708) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
04:38:25 <Bike> that's a lot of cocks.
04:38:59 <kmc> `pastequote kmc
04:39:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
04:39:05 <kmc> `quotepaste kmc
04:39:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quotepaste: not found
04:39:10 <kmc> ok how do i do this
04:39:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24302
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04:44:28 <HackEgo> 388) <tswett> elliott: by the way, you're now almost capable of crawling.
04:44:28 <HackEgo> 488) <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
04:44:29 <HackEgo> 268) <olsner> it is from 2002 though, I was younger then
04:44:29 <HackEgo> 536) <Taneb> Just goes to show, the Beatles are more interesting than green vegetables.
04:44:31 <HackEgo> 738) <elliott> I CAN'T DEAL WITH THE PRESSURE OF EVERYBODY THINKING I'M CONAL
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04:58:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.23331
05:00:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Have you considered using Twitter?
05:00:48 <Bike> wow, why would you even need zzo38_ebooks with that haul?
05:03:56 <shachaf> zzo38: I tried to connect to gopher://zzo38computer.org/ but it says Not Found.
05:05:18 <Arc_Koen> Yomi is a card game that simulates a fighting game. It tests your ability to predict how your opponents will act and your ability to judge the relative value of cards from one situation to the next. Also, it lets you do fun combos and be a panda.
05:05:53 <Arc_Koen> I understand World of Warcraft let you do that too, now?
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05:16:29 <kmc> `quote 329
05:16:31 <HackEgo> 329) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
05:19:07 <zzo38> It works on my computer. Try adding a 1 after the / at the end see if that works better.
05:19:33 <shachaf> The 1 was added automatically.
05:19:37 <shachaf> Doesn't work with two clients I've tried.
05:20:22 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: That is correct it is how Yomi card game is played. Well, it is a bit more complicated than that, but it is not extremely complicated rules.
05:20:37 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you seeing my requests?
05:21:24 <zzo38> shachaf: I can't tell, because you have a cloak.
05:21:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you seeing any requests?
05:22:04 <zzo38> Yes, from mf60536d0.tmodns.net
05:22:10 <shachaf> My requests aren't coming from the same IP address as my IRC client, anyway.
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05:22:43 <zzo38> When it is not found, my server responds "File not found"; does it say that or "Not Found"?
05:23:54 <zzo38> Can you try to see exactly what your computer is sending? And then we can see which side is wrong.
05:24:15 <zzo38> It works with every client I have tried.
05:25:00 <shachaf> I don't know what Gopher+ is or how to disable it.
05:26:03 <zzo38> Does it work with netcat?
05:27:17 <zzo38> Push the return key.
05:27:18 <shachaf> Oh, that shows some things.
05:27:54 <shachaf> Why isn't it working with my regular client?
05:28:13 <zzo38> What happens when you use netcat listening on port 70 and connect to it with your other gopher client?
05:29:10 <zzo38> Well, that is improper.
05:29:34 <zzo38> The protocol is not supposed to do that unless you have another / after the 1 in the URL
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05:30:50 <shachaf> Why are both my gopher clients broken?
05:31:15 <zzo38> I don't know; but every client I have tried (on many operating systems, even Android, since someone I know has one) works properly!
05:31:57 <shachaf> I use Debian and these are the two that are in APT.
05:32:11 <zzo38> Maybe it is because Gopher+ mode is enabled and needs to be turned off. Does it have configuration setting which can be changed?
05:32:13 <shachaf> Let me try one in Firefox.
05:32:46 <zzo38> In Firefox, you could try Overbite, which works better than the one that used to be built-in.
05:34:29 <Arc_Koen> is that like an Überzombie thing
05:34:47 <zzo38> I also wrote a gopher client for any UNIX system, called bashgopher, and a GUI gopher client for Windows, called Visgopher, and I don't know if it work on WINE or not.
05:35:04 <Bike> called so because gophers are often depicted with an overbite, prolly
05:37:36 <shachaf> echo 'furry*!video_game' | nc zzo38computer.org 70 | head -n3 | tail -n1 | cut -c 2-
05:37:44 <shachaf> Finally we can generate ourselves some game names!
05:38:36 <kmc> these are great
05:38:55 <kmc> Nasty Chemistry in Middle-Earth
05:38:57 <zzo38> However, if you want, you can also download the programs into your own computer to use them, if you have PHP, in order to speed up
05:39:04 <zzo38> Rather than having to use internet.
05:39:05 <Bike> "Bonk's Quarterstaff Lawyers" shiiiiit
05:39:14 <shachaf> Stop the Hang Glider Choreographer
05:39:28 <Bike> Ghetto Fun Operatives. this is genius
05:39:33 <kmc> Bumping Nazi Fun
05:39:42 <kmc> Canadian Blood 3000
05:39:43 <shachaf> Acidic Illithid Against Patents
05:39:46 <kmc> Interesting Graveyard For Masochists
05:39:50 <Bike> Occult Shark Odyssey
05:40:03 <Bike> i'm pretty sure the ecco the dolphin is kind of that though
05:40:08 <shachaf> Big Bird's Sniper Connection
05:40:15 <Bike> Catholic Shaving 95 <-- okay, hang on now
05:40:17 <zzo38> FurryScript is a command-line program, written in PHP, and you are free to use them under the GNU AGPL.
05:40:50 <kmc> Flying Landmine Fiasco
05:40:59 <kmc> Nobody Likes the College Orchestra
05:41:31 <kmc> Ultraviolent Programming Boy
05:41:36 <zzo38> Not all of the data in that file is mine, but much of it is; I also corrected some mistakes that the other data contained, and removed some duplicates and so on.
05:42:36 <kmc> In the Lost Kingdom of Spelling DVD
05:42:52 <kmc> Fiery Punching Chase
05:42:58 <kmc> Queen of the Racing Hospital
05:43:03 <zzo38> So, if you have PHP on your computer, you should download it if you are planning to make many requests, so that you can avoid overloading my computer or overloading the internet.
05:43:16 <kmc> Scooby Doo and the Chocobo Dungeon
05:43:25 <shachaf> If I don't have PHP on my computer can I keep overloading the Internet?
05:43:41 <shachaf> Asymmetric Janitor Unleashed
05:43:47 <kmc> front page news tomorrow: "online game name generator takes down Internet"
05:44:01 <kmc> Irritating Writing vs. Capcom
05:44:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Well, it would be better if you don't keep overloading the internet; but, it is possible to request more than one at once by a tab afterward and how many you want.
05:44:17 <shachaf> Five dimensional Drug-Dealing Crusader
05:44:22 <kmc> Hitler's Wrestling Restaurant
05:44:35 <kmc> Blessing of the Internet Posse
05:44:44 <kmc> Middle-Eastern Juggalo of the Law
05:44:55 <Bike> http://www.somethingawful.com/d/photoshop-phriday/randomly-generated-games.php Oh, I forgot that SA did this once.
05:45:00 <Bike> Except they made covers to go with 'em.
05:45:57 <shachaf> echo $'furry*!video_game\t20' | nc zzo38computer.org 70 | grep '^i\w' | cut -c 2-
05:47:13 <Bike> http://i.somethingawful.com/u/garbageday/photoshop_phriday/2009_08_21/HellospPity_01.jpg i think it went well, personally
05:47:37 <kmc> Funky DJ Werewolf sounds lie a promising tv show premise
05:47:57 <shachaf> That sounds too realistic.
05:48:19 <kmc> Awful Bong Nation
05:48:20 <zzo38> OK, then make a television show too, if you like to do that.
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05:48:51 <kmc> this sounds like one of those home makeover shows
05:49:01 <kmc> the host comes to your room and inspects your awful bong and then helps you improve it
05:49:26 <kmc> participants get a $1000 gift card for ROOR
05:49:28 <Bike> how does this tie into American Bong Saloon?
05:49:56 <shachaf> Oh, there's also a TV plot generator.
05:50:17 <shachaf> THIS PROGRAM IS ABOUT A ILLOGICAL PHILOSOPHER WHO IS AMAZING AT BEING FUNNY
05:50:35 <kmc> Blessing of the Bible - The Lost Levels
05:51:27 <zzo38> That TV plot generator is very old and the original source is unknown, although it has been published by Creative Computing; I then added a lot of additional things to that file.
05:51:34 <kmc> In the Lost Kingdom of Laser Preacher
05:51:37 <zzo38> This is why they are in uppercase.
05:52:38 <kmc> Sniper on the Oregon Trail
05:53:02 <kmc> Night of the Underwear Interceptor
05:53:05 <kmc> Hillbilly Hippo Bastards
05:53:19 <quintopia> are these movie titles or video game titles?
05:53:32 <kmc> Emo Night in Hell!
05:53:43 <shachaf> Hmm, there's also an adventure generator
05:53:44 <kmc> Real Math Pimps
05:53:49 <quintopia> did this thing generate the name of real fast nora's etc. ? because it should have,
05:54:00 <kmc> Final Computer of Mother Theresa
05:54:25 <kmc> Exciting Brain - Total Peace
05:55:20 <shachaf> Someone is sabotaging wagons and carts to come apart when travelling at high speed.
05:55:26 <shachaf> Elves are using a gauntlets of arcane weakness to kill human librarians.
05:55:35 <kmc> Orbital Horse Racing Lawyers
05:56:01 <kmc> Big Bird's Ghost Gone Wild
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05:56:26 <kmc> Frankenstein's Transvestite Castle
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05:56:31 <kmc> Mary Kate and Ashley's Fish Revisited
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05:56:48 <shachaf> You receive a map with many deliberate errors.
05:57:09 <Bike> Frankenstein's Transvestite Castle <-- well that one's obviously a movie.
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05:57:42 <kmc> Wandering Cat 2000
05:59:05 <quintopia> Bike: not necessarily. maybe it is like a crossbreed of rocky horror and luigi's mansion
05:59:11 <kmc> Psychedelic Forklift Competition
05:59:15 <kmc> Bling Bling Florist Overlords
05:59:31 <Bike> quintopia: isn't that just luigi's mansion
06:03:16 <kmc> Dirty Tennis Yoga <--- ok that would sell
06:03:35 <Bike> but would it be legal?
06:03:43 <kmc> c.f. http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/10/18
06:05:03 <kmc> Imperfect Hovercraft Physics <--- this game came with windows 95
06:05:17 <Bike> "BMX XXX" why did i look up what that comic was referring to
06:05:39 <quintopia> apparently there were not one but two rocky horror video games
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06:06:14 <kmc> Geriatric Otaku Nation
06:06:28 <elliott> am i missing kmc running a zzo program
06:06:51 <kmc> Approximate Bedtime For Masochists
06:07:10 <elliott> im reading all of these wow they're good
06:07:21 <elliott> 05:43:16 <kmc> Scooby Doo and the Chocobo Dungeon
06:07:36 <elliott> 05:44:01 <kmc> Irritating Writing vs. Capcom
06:07:52 <Bike> chocobo's dungeon was really pretty fun. adding a mystery-solving-dog component could only improve it
06:08:05 <kmc> Dracula's Bomberman - The Dark Project
06:08:31 <kmc> Neon Wheelchair of Love
06:08:36 <kmc> Unbelievable Enlightening Trivia
06:09:19 <kmc> Postmodern Chess Detective <--- this is a canadian TV show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_(TV_series))
06:09:22 <zzo38> No, I don't have that either. Not on this computer, anyways.
06:09:27 <kmc> pretty good
06:09:28 <elliott> The Infernal Barcode Strike Force
06:10:00 <quintopia> zzo38: do you know a way to port binaries targeting those systems without an emu
06:10:12 <kmc> Interstellar Lowrider Plus
06:10:37 <kmc> Low G Hillbilly Colosseum
06:10:47 <kmc> that was an episode of futurama
06:10:54 <Bike> «The game involved playing as either Brad or Janet and collecting pieces of the Medusa machine scattered around the castle, in order to free your partner from stone and escape the castle before it blasts off. Meanwhile the other characters in the game can hinder your progress by stealing and hiding your clothes along with what you are carrying.»
06:11:15 <elliott> Single Fun - The Last Generation
06:11:24 <elliott> it's the last generation because everyone in it is staying single and not having babies
06:11:40 <kmc> Christian Spelling vs. The Space Mutants
06:11:52 <elliott> Renegade Telephone Colosseum
06:12:00 <FreeFull> Legend of Frankenstein's Monster
06:12:05 <elliott> Pagan Banjo Caper. i think this may be the best program of all time
06:12:49 <quintopia> zzo38: i was just seeing if you ever tried to play c64 games on your computer
06:12:54 <FreeFull> Someone did Frankenstein himself, but not Adam
06:13:01 <elliott> Evil Genius Sailboat Conundrum
06:13:38 <kmc> Dead Goth Symphony
06:13:43 <kmc> that would be a good band name
06:14:27 <FreeFull> Stealth Workout - The Lost Levels
06:15:00 <FreeFull> Pro Plunger in the Magic Kingdom
06:15:06 <kmc> Angry Landmine Romance
06:15:39 <kmc> History of the Sunshine Thieves
06:15:43 <kmc> another band / album name
06:16:19 <Bike> the thing about band names is that you have to specify a genre
06:16:27 <Bike> otherwise you can just enter in random characters and say it's post-rock, etc
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06:17:12 <zzo38> Then write some for band name including genres! I wrote on esolang wiki of FurryScript, hopefully you can understand?
06:17:22 <kmc> i think History of the Sunshine Thieves would play upbeat power-pop with unsettling existentialist conspiracy lyrics
06:17:23 <elliott> Bike: well that already works for post-rock bands in practice so what's the problem
06:17:24 <Bike> There are already dozens of generators.
06:17:26 <elliott> Children of the Tetris Collection
06:17:43 <kmc> it might be too long for anything but post rock though
06:17:45 <Bike> elliott: i mean, what if i want a post-breakcore neobaroque-hop band name?
06:17:47 <elliott> the tetris collected them... but now... the tables have turned
06:18:07 <elliott> Bike: then possibly it is for the best that there is no band naming service to suit your needs
06:18:28 <kmc> Weary Punching Mathematics
06:18:48 <kmc> Everybody Hates the Midget Sickness
06:18:50 <elliott> it has the extra space. i don't know why
06:19:16 <zzo38> elliott: If you look at the script codes then you will know why. But you can just ignore the extra space.
06:19:30 <kmc> Hazardous Flatulence World Tour
06:20:16 <FreeFull> Radical Baking Assault Forever it will be a channel to discuss these now
06:20:27 <kmc> Luigi's Smart Sickness
06:20:33 <elliott> Escape from the Fun Noodle World Cup
06:20:39 <FreeFull> I would NOT want a hobo's special gold
06:20:41 <Bike> technically it's all zzo's fault. you're just the harbinger, shachaf, of zzo's doom
06:21:07 <elliott> Exquisite Bible Armada these are so good
06:21:14 <kmc> Drug-Induced Baking III
06:21:15 <FreeFull> I'm just imagining every frisbee ever thrown just screaming
06:21:33 <elliott> Return of Dinosaur on the High Seas
06:21:44 <elliott> hybrid piracy/dinosaur game
06:22:05 <kmc> an iphone app that helps you bake stuff while you are high
06:22:12 <kmc> that would make about a billion kajillion dollars
06:22:51 <elliott> Topsy-Turvy Cannibal Struggle
06:22:55 <kmc> Jedi Programming Principle <--- less a video game and more a linkbait post on hacker news
06:23:20 <HackEgo> 191) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 220) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could m
06:23:26 <FreeFull> kmc: Someone should actually write a good article about that
06:23:37 <Bike> shachaf: is that second quote referring to the pacific northwest tree octopus?
06:23:38 <kmc> Get Cat Eating
06:23:47 <elliott> Unforgettable Pony - 2nd Impact
06:24:03 <shachaf> Bike: My mother once forwarded that email to me.
06:24:15 <kmc> NBA Biplane Dungeon
06:24:17 <Bike> FreeFull: http://bradapp.blogspot.com/2009/07/jedi-programming-just-enough-design.html i have something to tell you
06:24:20 <FreeFull> No One Can Stop the Duck Bandits
06:24:20 <elliott> Meta Deer Hunter of the Deep
06:24:31 <FreeFull> Would be a good band name if it wasn't so long
06:24:32 <Bike> shachaf: i think i convinced one of my friends of it once. considering how rainy it is here it's shockingly believable
06:24:49 <shachaf> Bike: You're in the Pacific Northwest?
06:24:57 <elliott> FreeFull: band The Duck Bandits, album No One Can Stop the Duck Bandits. perfect?
06:25:01 <kmc> 8-Bit Android DJ <--- shit yeah that would sell
06:25:10 <Bike> kmc: bit.trip beat?
06:25:12 <elliott> Masters of Wheelchair Deathmatch
06:25:59 <elliott> In Search of Dungeons and Dragons Task Force
06:26:40 <kmc> History of the Punching vs. You
06:27:00 <elliott> kmc: another good band name
06:27:04 <elliott> this program is multi-purpose
06:27:11 <kmc> Ye Olde Drug-Dealing Crime Scene Investigation
06:27:55 <FreeFull> elliott: But a band called Duck Bandits already exists
06:28:28 <kmc> Post-Apocalyptic Penguin Trader
06:29:03 <kmc> Duke Nukem: Shaving Eating
06:29:44 <kmc> they haven't worked out all the kinks yet
06:30:09 <kmc> Fisher Price Tentacles Nightmare
06:30:30 <kmc> Bad Programming Fiesta
06:30:34 <kmc> Imperial Sunshine Orchestra
06:30:35 <shachaf> Are y'all still running this game name generator?
06:30:55 <Bike> no, they're just hooked directly into the mind of god now.
06:31:19 <FreeFull> A bot in another channel on another network had this thing where you specified kinds of words (like proper noun) with one or two letter combinations, and it would fill it in into a sentence
06:31:22 <kmc> Religious Juggalo Paratroopers
06:31:27 <FreeFull> It had some more advanced stuff too
06:31:37 <kmc> Curse of the Puppy in Vegas
06:31:57 <FreeFull> And of course you could write out most of the sentence yourself and have it only small parts
06:32:00 <kmc> Narcoleptic Jetski Diesel
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06:32:15 <Bike> i know a channel on another network where they just have a bot that messages at a common rate with markov gibberish
06:32:25 <kmc> All-Day Caveman in Bed
06:32:26 <Bike> of course, the consequence is that it's hard to tell the humans apart from the bot
06:32:32 <kmc> Everybody Loves the Prison Psychiatrist
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06:33:42 <kmc> Mary Kate and Ashley's Juggalo Showdown
06:33:54 <kmc> My Very Own Money Conundrum
06:34:18 <kmc> Revenge of Bong of the Third Reich
06:34:32 <kmc> that one sounds like a *really* bad stoner comedy
06:34:38 <kmc> Wacky STD Inferno
06:35:00 <elliott> my very own money conundrum sounds pretty sad
06:35:28 <kmc> Transvestite Flatulence For Masochists
06:35:44 <Bike> these are sounding increasingly illegal.
06:35:47 <kmc> The Hunt For the Punching Beatdown
06:36:42 <kmc> Antediluvian Cowboy of Magic
06:36:45 <shachaf> Does the JVM really make it impossible to do tail call elimination?
06:36:58 <shachaf> Or even just jumps in general, except within a method?
06:37:01 <elliott> 1-Bit Breakdancing - The Gathering Storm
06:37:08 <kmc> Medical Sudoku in My Pocket
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06:37:17 <Bike> shachaf: i think it would interfere with the security model?
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06:37:33 <shachaf> I don't know much about the JVM.
06:37:47 <FreeFull> http://www.jazz2online.com/junk/tick/tickbot.html#rsg
06:37:57 <Bike> but that's what i've heard. since tail calls mess up the stack frames
06:38:04 <Bike> which... are needed for security audit or something
06:38:31 <kmc> Hexadecimal Wordplay - Star Trek Edition
06:38:35 <Fiora> but isn't the idea of tail call elimination that you just optimize a recurisve function into a loop via code transformation? so like, the function doesn't exist anymore kinda
06:38:38 <Bike> «These requirements could in theory be supported, but it would probably require a new bytecode (see John Rose's informal proposal).»
06:38:42 <FreeFull> The actual bot ended up more advanced but the documentation wasn't updated
06:38:45 <Fiora> like, the JVM can inline, and that changes things
06:38:47 <kmc> Celebrity Writing Jihad
06:39:14 <elliott> Fiora: TCE doesn't have to be a call to the same function, is the crux
06:39:15 <Bike> Fiora: yes, so a 5-deep recursive call that would have been five stack frames for audit turns out to be just the one.
06:39:25 <Bike> oh, yeah, that would make more sense. duh.
06:39:27 <elliott> i.e. you can have two mutually-recursive functions, say
06:39:34 <elliott> or even just 5000 different functions that all tail-call each other
06:39:38 <elliott> and they'd all get optimised
06:39:46 <shachaf> Or you can just, you know, have a tail call. No recursion necessry.
06:39:47 <elliott> this is why you can't optimise it "locally" by just changing one function
06:40:06 <elliott> Preschool Architecture - The Lost Levels
06:40:13 <FreeFull> The problem with calling it an optimisation is that in some languages, iteration doesn't exist at all
06:40:16 <shachaf> The JVM has no jump instruction, though.
06:40:23 <shachaf> Except inside a method, and a method is limited to 64K
06:40:30 <Bike> FreeFull: are there any such languages besides scheme?
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06:40:46 <ion> 64 k should be enought for everyone.
06:40:59 <FreeFull> Bike: I can't think of any that aren't lisps
06:41:04 <shachaf> ion: Actually a method is limited at 64K - 1 :-(
06:41:22 <ion> shachaf: 64 kB or 64 KiB?
06:41:25 <elliott> Five dimensional Hardware in My Pocket
06:42:15 <Bike> maybe you can just make do with folds.
06:42:18 <FreeFull> In haskell most often you'd do something like map x ys but map itself might be implemented recursively (No idea about implementation, could be in C for all I know)
06:42:35 <FreeFull> Or a fold if you want one end result
06:42:37 <shachaf> Haskell's "map" is implemented in APL
06:43:27 <Bike> you couldn't technically meet the scheme standard though, probably, because it actually mandates tailness?
06:44:13 <elliott> it mandates constant space usage
06:44:16 <shachaf> You might not be able to have a mapping Scheme function -> JVM method.
06:44:19 <elliott> you can achieve this on a given Haskell implementation
06:45:23 <shachaf> elliott: When you write your Haskell compiler, can you not make it generate annoying names like "sfWk_info"?
06:45:37 <shachaf> How many names does GHC actually generated, anyway?
06:45:45 <shachaf> I suppose most of them are intermediate names that are never seen.
06:45:59 <shachaf> I'd rather have it be called "alpaca_info" or something.
06:46:23 <ion> Haskell’s “IO” is implemented as a container for a Perl script to be executed via libperl by the RTS.
06:46:36 <shachaf> Let me translate that from ionese:
06:46:45 <shachaf> Haskell's "IO" is implemented as a container for a Perl script to be executed via libperl by the RTS.
06:47:06 <fizzie> There is also a requirement that's approximately something like all possible paths of reaching a particular point must have the same (statically analyzed) stack effect, so you can't e.g. make a loop that'd pop off elements from the JVM stack.
06:47:23 <fizzie> "If an instruction can be executed along several different execution paths, the operand stack must have the same depth (§2.6.2) prior to the execution of the instruction, regardless of the path taken."
06:49:21 <kmc> <FreeFull> I'm just imagining every frisbee ever thrown just screaming
06:49:24 <kmc> sounds like salvia
06:56:00 <ion> Learning English through Exercise http://youtu.be/YZ1hah7QvIw
06:59:02 <kmc> i like the implication that taking a taxi in america will immediately lead to a knifepoint robbery
07:00:41 <ion> Is that not the case?
07:01:33 <kmc> only in detroit
07:01:42 <kmc> and oakland
07:01:45 <kmc> and east palo alto
07:02:27 <shachaf> I've never taken a taxi in EPA.
07:02:38 <shachaf> I've taken them in San Francisco, though.
07:03:19 <shachaf> That was mostly because of the driver's driving, though.
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07:29:54 <sgeo> http://heaven.internetarchaeology.org/ I'm sure many people have seen this but it has not stopped being hilariously bad
07:31:32 <sgeo> http://midi.internetarchaeology.org/devil.mid
07:31:36 <sgeo> What song is that?
07:34:27 <elliott> by bad do you mean really good
07:35:21 <monqy> a true work of art
07:35:24 <monqy> timeless masterpiece
07:37:01 <shachaf> monqy: I took your "hi" and sold it to a collector for "about a billion kajillion dollars"
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07:51:16 <sgeo> elliott, monqy. I believe by #esoteric law I am required to do the thing.
07:51:41 <sgeo> It's somewhat boring
07:51:49 <monqy> sounds like a dumb law
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07:52:52 <fizzie> It's only enforced because of an obscure #esoteric rule from the middle ages.
07:53:03 <fizzie> We'd all be free to fly around if it weren't for this channel.
07:53:26 <fizzie> Admittedly stars wouldn't work either, but that's the price you pay.
07:53:27 <shachaf> Hmm, I always thought it was Newton's fault.
07:53:47 <fizzie> If only he had had sense to dodge that apple, we wouldn't have gravity?
07:54:08 <sgeo> Apples usually fall up, don't they?
08:02:46 <quintopia> sgeo: you've been playing too much iwtbtg. put down the delicious fruit.
08:03:11 <sgeo> I haven't played much iwtbtg
08:03:26 <sgeo> I love watching Let's Plays, but I haven't seriously tried playing myself
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08:08:38 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland: parking your car http://is12.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288523526349.jpg
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09:47:48 <fizzie> Meanwhile also in Finland: Finnish Safety and Chemicals Agency has done their traditional yearly spot-check on christmas toys, and 14 of the selected 28 toys had safety deficiencies; 5 such that they were recalled, including a bow-and-arrow set with a laser pointer aiming thing that's "over ten times" over the 0.39 mW limit of a class 1 laser.
09:56:14 <Taneb> I've got the name for it
09:56:45 <olsner> Meanwhile in Dutch: Finse Veiligheid en Agentschap voor chemische stoffen heeft gedaan hun traditionele jaarlijkse spot-check op kerst speelgoed, en 14 van de geselecteerde 28 speelgoed had veiligheidstekortkomingen, 5 zodanig dat ze werden teruggeroepen, waaronder een boeg-en pijl-set met een laser pointer gericht ding dat is "meer dan tien keer" over de 0,39 mW grens van een klasse 1 laser.
09:58:03 <fizzie> "Boeg-en pijl-set" makes me smile.
09:58:38 <fizzie> I wonder if "een laser pointer gerich ding" is something a native Dutch speaker might say.
09:58:49 <olsner> looks like it translated into (Finnish Safety) and (chemicals agency) too
09:59:23 <fizzie> That's not terribly good.
09:59:30 <Taneb> My hair feels weird
09:59:55 <olsner> Mine doesn't, as far as I know
10:01:18 <fizzie> Also this http://www.turvallistajuhlaa.info/@Bin/44623/zoolife_popeyes_web.jpeg was recalled because one of the eyes fell off in the testing. With a name like "ZooLife Popeyes", I don't know what they were expecting...
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10:14:18 <sgeo> If I start talking about Factor again, is elliott going to bring that bot in again?
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10:17:07 <sgeo> : fortnight ( x -- duration ) 14 * days ;
10:17:14 <fizzie> "Better not tell you now", says the magic eight-ball.
10:17:20 <sgeo> That tricks me into thinking that 14 is being multiplied by days
10:17:20 <fizzie> I suppose that wasn't very helpful.
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10:42:35 <fizzie> [12:39:21] <matthewt> !conduct
10:42:35 <fizzie> [12:39:21] <Rodney> Conduct: Do not eat a dagger more than 11 times.
10:42:41 <fizzie> (Had to retwe... I mean, share.)
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11:23:59 <sgeo> Maybe I'd find Factor easier if I viewed the stack shuffling words as though they were compositions of the function that follows them?
11:24:05 <sgeo> swap foo is just like flip foo
11:25:42 <monqy> thing is have you ever seen a mess of flips and made sense of it
11:25:56 <monqy> does that sort of thing happen in factor
11:26:16 <sgeo> I'm starting to fear that that's the default in Factor
11:27:26 <monqy> I'd assume otherwise but ~who knows~
11:28:17 <monqy> of course you can't just take some wacky function and write it in factor with flips and make it readable but maybe you can write it in some other way that's easier to make sense of, using higher level features, and comment it if needed, &c
11:29:16 <monqy> after all if factor was just a mess of flips who would use it :]
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11:40:03 <shachaf> monqy: spoilers no one uses factor :'(
11:40:09 <shachaf> monqy: (but not because of the flips)
11:41:21 <fizzie> Do you get the kind of >R SWAP R@ OVER R> thing in Factor?
11:43:00 <fizzie> (That's (a b c -- b a c a c) and is probably conventionally written in some other way, I just mashed some keys.)
11:45:13 <fizzie> This is how Forth's return stack works: http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/images/ch5-return-stack.gif
11:46:06 <monqy> shachaf: why don't people use factor :0
11:46:20 <monqy> if sgeo used factor
11:46:26 <monqy> would that be people using factor ?
11:49:16 <fizzie> Only is Sgeo is people.
11:49:35 <fizzie> Is Sgeo made of people? A horrible thought.
11:49:41 <sgeo> [ swap ] dip 2dup
11:49:54 <sgeo> I think that should have the same effect in Factor. Hmm
11:50:05 <monqy> but why would you write that
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11:51:02 <sgeo> Apparently not
11:54:44 <sgeo> Oh sure. Forget to output makes it error
11:54:57 <sgeo> http://ideone.com/j6E2dD works, but swapd is apparently depreciated
11:55:37 <monqy> but why would you write that.............
11:56:17 <sgeo> Because it's what fizzie's thing does.
11:56:26 <sgeo> http://ideone.com/zrZAGv
11:59:28 <sgeo> The depreciation thing for swapd says that it's depreciated, and the use case would be better served with lexicals
11:59:53 <sgeo> "The data flow represented by this shuffle word can be more clearly expressed using Lexical variables."
12:00:48 <fizzie> Are that in any way like Forth locals?
12:01:48 <sgeo> I don't know what Forth locals are like
12:02:12 <sgeo> Example of a word defined with lexicals:
12:02:23 <fizzie> : foo ( a b c -- b a c a c ) >r swap r@ over r> ; would be written with locals as : foo { a b c -- b a c a c } b a c a c ;.
12:02:23 <sgeo> :: ( a b c -- ) a . b . c . ;
12:02:39 <sgeo> oops forgot to name it
12:03:23 <fizzie> It seems very similar, except for the syntax. (:: instead of {}s in the stack comment?)
12:04:37 <fizzie> True Forthers (as far as I can figure out) say locals are the worst possible thing, should be never used, and you should just factor the words into smaller and smaller pieces instead.
12:04:58 <fizzie> Also that they are a "crutch" that will make you not factor properly.
12:05:13 <fizzie> Possibly also that anyone caught using locals should be shot.
12:05:34 <monqy> zzo writes forth codes right? is zzo a true forther
12:05:46 <sgeo> http://ideone.com/XxXaIb
12:06:16 <sgeo> Factor seems to take the view that they should be used only when needed
12:06:35 <sgeo> And yes, strings don't need a space after the ". It's an exception in the parser
12:06:44 <sgeo> Other things like URL" still need the space
12:07:16 <sgeo> fizzie, there's also [let ] that can be used anywhere
12:08:48 * sgeo wonders if there's a way to write dip in pure Factor
12:09:01 <sgeo> dip is defined, as it turns out, but in terms of dip
12:09:23 <sgeo> The primitive dip is used with literal quotations, and the definition is used for non-literal quotations
12:09:37 <fizzie> sgeo: Technically, you can use { anywhere too: http://ideone.com/Kbh5F6
12:09:45 <fizzie> (Not that you'd probably want to.)
12:10:25 <sgeo> But that doesn't seem to terminate?
12:10:30 <sgeo> Except at the ;
12:10:38 <fizzie> You can do http://ideone.com/eO60Di if you want to get rid of them early too.
12:10:39 <sgeo> I should really be sleeping
12:11:06 <fizzie> Whoops, the comment for the locals is now misleading.
12:11:09 <fizzie> But you get the point.
12:11:42 <fizzie> (The scope/endscope is probably gforth-specific.)
12:11:43 <sgeo> In Factor, those aren't comments
12:12:52 <fizzie> The part after -- is a comment in Forth.
12:13:26 <sgeo> I thought stack declarations were comments in general. Oh, except for the locals stuff, sure
12:13:44 <fizzie> Right, yes, in ()s they're comments altogether.
12:14:05 <sgeo> Factor actually checks those
12:14:08 <fizzie> ANS Forth doesn't really define a syntax for locals, it just defines words that can be used to define syntaxes for locals, so my examples might've been quite gforth-specific overall.
12:14:20 <fizzie> "The ANS Forth locals extension wordset defines a syntax, but it is so awful that we strongly recommend not to use it. We have implemented this syntax to make porting to Gforth easy, but do not document it here."
12:15:02 <fizzie> It's apparently the wrong way around compared to standard stack comment notation, to begin with.
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12:16:43 <sgeo> wrong way around?
12:17:05 <sgeo> Oh, is that the syntax you used, or is the syntax you used Gforth specific?
12:19:10 <sgeo> Cool, in Factor it's possible for an error handler to forcibly resume from an error even if the thrower isn't expecting it
12:22:08 <fizzie> The syntax I used is I think reasonably common, but it's not entirely standard.
12:23:01 <fizzie> The ANS locals for : foo ( a b c -- ... ) ... ; would be declared with locals| c b a |.
12:23:17 <sgeo> I can see how that's a bit WTFy
12:23:20 <fizzie> I don't think anyone really likes it all that much.
12:25:24 <sgeo> Also, there's shuffle( ) for arbitrary shuffling but I don't see any good docs
12:26:22 <sgeo> http://ideone.com/7vHtCa
12:28:37 <sgeo> Wait, I suddenly fail to see how [ swap ] dip 2dup made any sense
12:30:26 <fizzie> I was just assuming [ ... ] dip was kind of like >r ... r>.
12:31:11 <fizzie> In which case it makes sense. (And I suppose >r swap r@ over r> would arguably be better as >r swap r> 2dup, since 2dup exists too.
12:32:22 <sgeo> http://ideone.com/OnSmVL
12:32:27 <sgeo> So yeah, I got it wrong
12:32:37 <sgeo> I think it should be [ swap 2dup ] dip
12:32:46 <sgeo> Oh, I see what happened:
12:32:57 <sgeo> I turned your b a c a c thing into b a b a c
12:33:16 <sgeo> The [ swap ] dip 2dup was written for b a c a c
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13:10:17 <GreyKnight> First the disembodied hand picks up a number. Then the flying two-headed monster arrives. It's obvious when you think about it.
13:12:58 <GreyKnight> (related to: <fizzie> This is how Forth's return stack works: http://www.forth.com/starting-forth/images/ch5-return-stack.gif )
13:14:43 <hagb4rd> how could something be obvious, when i have to think about it first anyway
13:17:13 <HackEgo> 467) <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
13:20:21 <GreyKnight> perhaps the blood provided the beans with some extra nutrients as well
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13:27:13 <HackEgo> 549) <Gregor> Hulu's movie selection is like MST3K without the MST3K characters.
13:34:07 <HackEgo> 694) <Vorpal> <ais523> northern ireland is quite a way to drag someone from scotland <-- not really. I just checked in google earth <ais523> Vorpal: but dragging people across water's a bit tricky
13:34:07 <HackEgo> 55) <oklopol> hmm, this is hard
13:34:09 <HackEgo> 366) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
13:35:11 <GreyKnight> 694: who was being dragged and for what purpose?
13:36:10 <sgeo> fizzie, does the return stack do anything important, or is it just a convenient place for when you need another stack?
13:36:36 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: you must restore it to its original state by the end of the function (or whatever Forth calls functions)
13:36:50 <GreyKnight> as the top is expected to hold a return pointer
13:37:00 <sgeo> Unless you want to do tricky continuationy stuff I assume
13:37:38 <GreyKnight> I got that explanation from Ch5 of http://www.forth.com/starting-forth
13:38:32 <GreyKnight> on a quick browse, it looks like fizzie's linked image is fairly representative of the odd illustrations
13:39:05 <GreyKnight> Learn You A Haskell is a bit that way too, are "cutesy bizarre illustrations" a thing now in programming books??
13:40:12 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
13:40:17 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
13:40:26 <GreyKnight> you could've just linked me the first time
13:40:27 <sgeo> GreyKnight, not in Factor books. Because there are no Factor books.
13:40:52 <monqy> they're a thing in factor books too
13:40:55 <monqy> because there are no factor books
13:41:01 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: so 100% of all Factor books have bizarre illustrations
13:41:19 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
13:41:47 <GreyKnight> @tell ais523 Did you ever find the fifth binary digit of pi?? (`quote 366)
13:46:45 <sgeo> GreyKnight, what if there's a deletion spree before then?
13:51:05 <fizzie> sgeo: It is used by things other than return addresses too, which makes it slightly tricky to use.
13:51:36 <fizzie> Loop control things, for example.
13:52:48 <fizzie> You can't 10 >r ... do ... r> ... loop and expect r> to pick up the 10.
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13:54:21 <fizzie> (And in fact i is pretty much just r@ in disguise.)
13:55:31 <fizzie> I don't think selection statements affect the return stack.
13:59:18 <sgeo> Do people consider Forth conditionals to be ugly?
13:59:54 <sgeo> Factor conditionals are less ... syntaxy, but harder to read imo because the code goes before the if
14:00:17 <sgeo> 0 zero? [ "It's zero!" . ] [ "It's not zero!" . ] if
14:01:27 <fizzie> I think people have complained about the misleading location of "then" in the Forth <condition> if <code if true> then <completely unrelated stuff>.
14:02:04 <fizzie> gforth documentation prefers to use the synonym "endif" for "then".
14:02:34 <sgeo> Can gforth conditionals be used at the whatever-the-REPL-is-called-in-Forth?
14:02:47 <fizzie> Especially when it's combined with else, making it cond IF truecase ELSE falsecase THEN otherstuff.
14:03:33 <sgeo> I should really get going
14:03:36 <fizzie> In the interpreter? No, but you can use [if] [else] [then].
14:03:41 <sgeo> I have a long day of mostly doing nothing at school
14:05:05 <fizzie> `forth 0 if 1 else 2 then .
14:05:07 <HackEgo> \ in file included from *OS command line*:-1 \ /tmp/input.274:1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ 0 >>>if<<< 1 else 2 then . \ Backtrace: \ $40E19B30 throw
14:05:14 <fizzie> `forth 0 [if] 1 [else] 2 [then] .
14:06:12 <sgeo> Hmm, wonder about the best way to add a factor command
14:06:16 <sgeo> Actually, that could suck
14:06:39 <sgeo> Factor has a tendency to want you to list every vocabulary you want to use, and all the useful stuff is spread out among them
14:06:52 <sgeo> `factor "Hello" .
14:06:54 <HackEgo> factor: `"Hello" .' is not a valid positive integer
14:07:12 <sgeo> So... the name of Factor still sucks major balls
14:07:16 <fizzie> It's the factor of coreutils.
14:08:06 <fizzie> `run dpkg-query -S $(which factor)
14:08:07 <HackEgo> dpkg-query: failed to open package info file `/var/lib/dpkg/status' for reading: No such file or directory
14:09:46 <sgeo> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/concatenative/message/4873
14:10:00 <sgeo> Apparently the person behind Joy abandoned it and recommends Factor?
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14:11:26 * sgeo wonders if there's a cleaner approach to syntax modification than Factor's approach
14:11:33 <sgeo> (Which I think is similar to Forth's?)
14:12:03 <sgeo> I mean, cleaner approach in the concatenative language space
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14:39:41 <Deewiant> elliott: Turns out that exceptions are faster than return value checking for rare errors: mushspace and Hali will move to C++11, I'm afraid. (mushspace will of course still provide a C API.)
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15:10:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Move to C with setjmp/longjmp.
15:10:24 <Lumpio-> But... but I heard a guy once say that exceptions are slow and nobody should ever consider thinking about using then!
15:10:35 <fizzie> I've heard a guy once say that.
15:11:11 <fizzie> I've also heard you incur their cost even when not using them.
15:12:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: I thought about but I figured it's too impractical even for this.
15:13:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: Move to C with inline-asm macros that do a vaguely setjmp/longjmp-like raw register dump/reload.
15:14:41 <Deewiant> fizzie: That could be an "in addition to" solution, but not an "instead of", since it requires per-architecture work from me.
15:16:26 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ooh, ooh, move to C with #define throw(errcode) *(void *)(errcode) exceptions that are "caught" by a SIGSEGV handler that pickles the uc_mcontext member of the ucontext_t to unwind back into a handler.
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15:17:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: (Both slow and horrible at the same time!)
15:17:43 <Deewiant> fizzie: Sorry, undefined behaviour is a no-go.
15:17:51 <Deewiant> (Points for creativity though. :-))
15:19:05 <kmc> yeah i knew somebody who proposed implementing futures in C that way
15:19:26 <fizzie> Let me guess, he's DEAD NOW?
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16:46:48 <elliott> Deewiant: Why not just use setjmp or whatever
16:47:05 <elliott> It's syntactically ugly unless you use some macro hackery but there's nothing wrong with it.
16:47:56 <Deewiant> It's ugly and potentially a pain for users
16:48:14 <elliott> If it matters for users, then you don't export a "C API".
16:48:50 <Deewiant> I export a C API as an alternative; C++ users can use the exceptions directly.
16:50:06 <elliott> I really don't think setjmp/longjmp are that ugly, since you can recreate a try/catch structure directly with just some macro hackery anyway. It's not that far off
16:52:32 <Deewiant> And it does matter for users, since the users will be the setjmp'ing ones.
16:53:58 <elliott> Sure, so the C API will be awkward whether you use longjmp or exceptions.
16:56:29 <Deewiant> If I use longjmp it'll be awkward due to having to pass a jmp_buf everywhere. If I use exceptions the C API will be return codes, and you can ignore them if you're willing to ignore malloc failures, like people tend to be. :-P
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16:57:19 <kmc> not like malloc ever actually fails on linux
16:57:35 <Deewiant> It can if you've configured it to do so.
16:57:41 <kmc> which i have actually
16:57:46 <Deewiant> And on non-Linux systems, of course.
16:57:53 <kmc> also it can fail if you run out of virtual address space before you run out of actual storage
16:57:59 <kmc> which is pretty plausible on 32-bit
16:59:00 <Arc_Koen> you mean, actual storage space is larger than 2^32?
17:00:19 <kmc> well, that can happen, sure
17:00:22 <Arc_Koen> there's some OISC esolang on the wiki like that, that claims to be turing-complete but that can only access as many instructions as the fixed-length addresses allow it
17:01:06 <Arc_Koen> well the article starts by stating words can be for instance 5-bit long, and then it gets way too complicated for more and somehow seems to assume words are infinite or something
17:01:38 <kmc> but also physical storage is typically allocated when memory pages are actually used
17:02:41 <kmc> so you could allocate 2^32 bytes of memory, not actually touch it, and end up with a small physical memory footprint
17:02:51 <kmc> but still run out of address space
17:04:03 <elliott> 16:56:29 <Deewiant> If I use longjmp it'll be awkward due to having to pass a jmp_buf everywhere. If I use exceptions the C API will be return codes, and you can ignore them if you're willing to ignore malloc failures, like people tend to be. :-P
17:04:22 <elliott> You can abstract the jmp_buf, but don't you have some sort of "interpreter state" object you can stuff it into instead?
17:04:38 <elliott> I'd probably just abort() or fail silently on malloc failures, though. mushspace isn't mission critical.
17:04:55 <elliott> Deewiant: Wait, why do you need a jmp_buf yourself? Just call a function pointer on an error.
17:05:05 <Deewiant> I'm trying to be anal about handling malloc failures correctly.
17:05:10 <elliott> If it wants to unwind the stack it can arrange that itself in a language-specific manner (setjmp/longjmp or exceptions).
17:05:55 <Deewiant> There are other kinds of errors as well (also the rare kind), it'd be impractical for the user to manage them all.
17:07:06 <elliott> Deewiant: It can just pass an error code/string/whatever to the funptr it calls?
17:07:21 <elliott> It'd be minimal-effort to pass it a function that throws a C++ exception or whatever.
17:07:29 <elliott> And if you don't care, you can just pass it something that abort()s.
17:09:14 <Deewiant> I think everything that can fail has access to a mushspace*, so that could work.
17:10:36 <elliott> I guess the function call overhead could theoretically make actually *handling* an error slowly, but I assume you don't care about performance in the rare error cases, so this seems like the cleanest solution to me.
17:11:13 <elliott> (Of course you might want to use other C++11 features too. But C++ libraries are such a pain, esp. to bind to other languages. Admittedly having a C API handles most of that work.)
17:13:28 <Deewiant> Yes, error handling speed is irrelevant. The error cases are essentially "malloc (or equivalent) failure" / "cannot fit input into address space" / (various kinds of) "infinite loop detected", which shouldn't be common.
17:13:58 <kmc> the probability of generating a valid UTF-8 sequence by picking random bytes uniformly is about 53.6%
17:15:34 <elliott> Oh, I guess you also need to store a (void *) somewhere so that the error handler can get access to a jmp_buf that a hypothetical user stuffed in. But that's just standard "closure in C" stuff.
17:15:42 <elliott> Well, they could just use a global I guess.
17:15:53 <Deewiant> Sometimes I need to do some operations before rethrowing, though.
17:15:56 <kmc> and the probability if you pick only high-bit bytes is about 16.4%
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17:16:22 <elliott> Deewiant: That sounds a little fiddly but easy enough.
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17:16:56 <elliott> I guess you could simplify it by storing a FILO of error handlers that you push that stuff to.
17:16:58 <Deewiant> elliott: It means I'd have to propagate the exception via other methods until I'm sure I can call the user's handler.
17:17:28 <elliott> No, you could just override the handler to be one that cleans stuff up and then calls the user's exception handler.
17:18:24 <Deewiant> That's likely to be more expensive than try-catch-throw, I think.
17:19:16 <elliott> What, the expense of reassigning a pointer?
17:20:38 <elliott> Say you use struct error_handler { void (*handle)(void *userdata, char *error); void *userdata; }; Then if you have finalisation work to do, you write: void my_finalising_stuff(void *userdata, char *myerror) { error_handler *old_handler = userdata; ...finalise stuff...; old_handler->handle(old_handler->userdata, error); }
17:20:39 <Deewiant> That's at least four pointers: save user's handler and data pointers and anything from the stack our handler will need, write our handler and data pointers.
17:21:10 <elliott> It sounds pretty cheap to me.
17:21:27 <elliott> How often do you even set these up?
17:21:42 <Deewiant> This would be in every write operation.
17:22:19 <elliott> Surely you can avoid that: have the error handling function itself call a finalise_write_stuff() function before the user's error handler, and have that just read from something in the (mushspace *).
17:22:34 <elliott> Then you only have to store what you absolutely have to store (the relevant data it needs to access).
17:22:52 <elliott> (You can generalise this by doing the FILO thing and just setting it up ahead of time.)
17:25:23 <Deewiant> The relevant data will change every call, and it's not /only/ in writes that I have to do some kind of finalization.
17:27:14 <elliott> Sure, so if you set up a FILO or whatever of all the possible types of finalisation you need to do ahead of time (and only actually walk it when you handle an error), the only cost of changing the relevant data is copying it; you avoid the overhead of messing with the error handlers because they're done ahead of time.
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17:30:01 <Deewiant> That's quite messy internally, and just that small bit of copying might already be too costly. I suppose it's worth a try, though.
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17:31:32 <elliott> Clearly you could save on copying time by having your error handlers look down the stack at your code's data.
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17:31:55 <Deewiant> Right, that's what C++ try-catch achieves without invoking undefined behaviour. :-P
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17:33:29 <Deewiant> And re. your bracketed thing earlier: yes, I might want to use some C++ somewhere anyway. A case I expect to hit sooner or later is that qsort takes only a function pointer without a void* context... std::sort would be much more convenient than having to select between qsort_r/qsort_s depending on the libc.
17:34:05 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm sure you can do much better than qsort anyway...
17:35:20 <Deewiant> qsort isn't guaranteed to use quicksort, is it?
17:35:55 <elliott> Deewiant: No. But it's also not guaranteed to use the best algorithm you can get your hands on.
17:36:02 <elliott> I don't think any libcs use timsort.
17:36:49 <Deewiant> True, but this is the kind of thing whose optimization I might be willing to leave to the stdlib maintainers. :-P
17:36:58 <elliott> Apparently glibc uses introsort and musl uses smoothsort. And uClibc uses, um, shellsort.
17:37:16 <elliott> Deewiant: It's not even slightly close to a bottleneck?
17:38:43 <Deewiant> elliott: It's something not at all Funge-specific which is likely to be kept at least "fast in the general case" by people who aren't me, so outsourcing it can be worthwhile.
17:40:54 <elliott> Deewiant: I think you trust standard library maintainers too much.
17:41:18 <elliott> Anyway if you outgrow the qsort interface you have to pay some cost switching over, so I'd personally take the opportunity to implement timsort or whatever so I know it'll be fast.
17:43:06 <Deewiant> I also filed an LLVM misoptimization bug which turned out to be an off-by-one error in some bitset initialization code of mine. std::bitset would've avoided that hair-pulling.
17:43:39 <Deewiant> (This is of course a specific case that could happen anywhere else and in any language.)
17:44:08 <Deewiant> (Well, this particular case only in languages without bounds checking on fixed-length arrays.)
17:44:32 <elliott> Deewiant: The way I see it is that eventually you will end up reimplementing all this stuff just to see the numbers go down in benchmarks anyway.
17:44:43 <elliott> So you might as well do it when you have an excuse like a nicer interface without switching languages.
17:45:35 <Deewiant> Eh, there are cold paths which can benefit from things that C++ or its stdlib make simpler.
17:45:43 <Deewiant> Which won't show up in profiles.
17:46:07 <elliott> You do pay the cost of using C++ features, though.
17:46:45 <elliott> Slower compile times, the effort of having to write C wrappers around stuff, larger binary (which could have performance implications), people will think you're uncool.
17:47:05 <elliott> I'm sure D would make a lot of things more convenient too :)
17:47:21 <Deewiant> The binary with C++ exceptions turned out to be 2K larger, IIRC.
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17:47:58 <Deewiant> And not really compared to C++11, I don't think. For mushspace, that is.
17:49:27 <elliott> 2K isn't much, sure; let me know what it's like when you use all the other conveniences.
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17:50:49 <FreeFull> I think I'm getting to know haskell
18:01:56 <Deewiant> It's an implementation of a Funge-Space.
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18:06:39 <FreeFull> I wonder how many befunge interpreters have been written in haskell
18:06:54 <kmc> countably many
18:09:21 <elliott> FreeFull: I wrote an almost-complete, Mycology-passing-except-for-some-unimplemented-stuff, quite-a-few-fingerprints-implementing, not-the-slowest-thing-in-the-world one.
18:09:34 <elliott> It was OK. I plan to write a version 2 of it someday once I figure out a nice fungespace representation.
18:10:00 <elliott> I think I might have re-lost the code again, after re-finding it.
18:12:15 <Deewiant> Maybe I should switch to C++ and not implement a C API just to make sure that Shiro 2 doesn't use mushspace against me.
18:12:19 <elliott> It... needs to be two-dimensional, for one.
18:12:34 <elliott> Deewiant: Do you seriously think I'd settle for a mutable fungespace?
18:12:49 <elliott> Well... I might. But it's possible to eimplement efficient imperative code in Haskell, so I'd do that out of pride if I did make such a compromise.
18:13:37 <Deewiant> Er, you'd do what exactly out of pride?
18:13:57 <kmc> it's nice to use persistent data structures for your interpreter
18:14:13 <kmc> then you can do checkpoints, nondeterministic eval, etc.
18:14:30 <elliott> kmc: The problem is just efficiency, that's all.
18:14:45 <elliott> The competition in the Funge-98 space is pretty fierce.
18:15:16 <Deewiant> It's just me plodding along and cfunge seems to have stopped.
18:15:47 <elliott> cfunge isn't the one to beat anyways, CCBI is.
18:16:05 <kmc> you should write a tracing JIT
18:16:06 <Deewiant> cfunge beats CCBI on some things.
18:16:19 <elliott> Anyway I probably can't beat whatever you're calling that new interpreter on raw benchmark speed.
18:16:37 <elliott> I'll be happy if I can be at least in the same league, have pretty code, cool debugging features, and implement all the stupid fingerprints you don't.
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18:17:19 <Deewiant> If you can be in the same league with a very persistent data structure, that'll be cool.
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18:18:01 <elliott> Though I am prepared to compromise my ethics to some degree.
18:18:04 <Deewiant> I doubt you can though. I could make the current mushspace persistent-ish.
18:18:51 <elliott> I might cheat by having a persistent interface but with an impure underlying implementation, such that it's slow if you actually use the persistence much.
18:18:58 <Deewiant> Okay, not very efficiently persistent at all but some kind of COW copies would be possible.
18:19:00 <elliott> Though those tricks never actually seem to perform well in practice.
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18:20:45 <elliott> Deewiant: (Calling COW persistent upsets me.)
18:20:47 <Deewiant> kmc: Re. JIT, fizzie has/had a work-in-progress x86(?) JIT, another one of those not-active-but-fierce competitors. A JIT is currently the last thing on my todo list.
18:21:24 <Deewiant> elliott: Isn't that the typical implementation technique? :-P
18:21:25 <elliott> A JIT is sort of on my TODO list too.
18:21:32 <elliott> It'd help me cheat around the fact that Haskell isn't as fast as C.
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18:21:56 <elliott> (Implementations-not-languages complaints will be answered by @quote monochrom Einstein.)
18:22:51 <Deewiant> A custom JIT might make you win in some cases, I was just planning on having a fast interpreter and then using LLVM to JIT.
18:22:53 <kmc> what# do# you# mean#, Haskell# is# as# fast# as# c#
18:23:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Right, I was going to do something significantly fancier.
18:23:17 <kmc> ooh you should try using pypy
18:23:30 <elliott> Deewiant: Something like running another thread that analyses the paths the IP goes through and writes code that skips the actual IP movement for those stretches.
18:23:40 <oerjan> @quote monochrom Einstein
18:23:41 <lambdabot> monochrom says: einstein's theory implies that haskell cannot be faster than c
18:23:46 <elliott> Of course if you turn on TRDS or whatever that'd have to go.
18:23:54 <Deewiant> The thing with LLVM as a JIT is that it's more like running a slow AOT compiler, just writing into memory instead of a file.
18:24:10 <elliott> Yeah, you really want something more dynamic for Funge, I think.
18:24:12 <Gregor> LLVM is probably a fine hot JIT.
18:24:19 <elliott> Gregor: For self-modifying programs?
18:24:28 <zzo38> It is shown, Haskell can be as fast as C (or sometimes faster), depending on the program. Not always.
18:24:30 <Gregor> Depends on how much they self modify *shrugs*
18:24:31 <Deewiant> elliott: I figured I'd paper over that with the fast interpreter part. ;-P
18:24:38 <zzo38> Can you make self modifying in LLVM?
18:24:43 <elliott> I do worry about that overhead/startup time, though.
18:24:46 <zzo38> I didn't see any command for that.
18:24:58 <Gregor> I wouldn't consider using LLVM as the fast JIT though.
18:25:10 <elliott> I don't want to be superfast on idealised benchmark #174 at the expense of Mycology taking 3 seconds to run.
18:25:16 <Deewiant> My point was to not have a fast JIT at all.
18:25:28 <Deewiant> Just an interpreter and a slow JIT.
18:25:53 <elliott> Also I'd want this JIT stuff to activate automatically because I don't like tuning implementation flags to benchmarks.
18:25:54 <zzo38> But I have had idea that they could add some kind of self-modifying in LLVM. One idea is to be able to tie the reading and/or writing of a global variable to a specific instruction.
18:26:00 <Gregor> Then LLVM is probably fine so long as you're tuned not to use it stupidly *shrugs*
18:26:01 <elliott> my goals are admittedly impossible
18:26:01 <Deewiant> With the former being hopefully good enough for one-time code and then LLVM handling loopy stuff well.
18:26:29 <Deewiant> elliott: Doing JIT stuff in another thread is an option.
18:27:03 <Deewiant> And then just say "JITting on single core will be slow".
18:27:17 <elliott> Threads have costs, still. Admittedly Haskell threads are basically free so I have an advantage 8)
18:27:30 <elliott> (Except not really since I'd only spawn one.)
18:28:05 <zzo38> Other ways to do self-modifying code might be like INTERCAL's ABSTAIN and REINSTATE; but such thing might also be done by tying a variable to a branching instruction.
18:28:15 <elliott> Deewiant: Do any of your benchmarks test stuff like IO / fingerprints?
18:28:20 <elliott> Maybe I could beat you by super-optimising those.
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18:29:52 <Deewiant> elliott: I/O not much, but a bit on the side with the underload interpreter. It does show up in ministat: I filed a glibc bug concerning an #ifdef excluding Clang from inlining getchar. :-P (Let's see how soon that gets marked as WONTFIX or even INVALID.)
18:30:22 <Deewiant> elliott: Fingerprints: again, the Underload interpreter uses STRN, but not otherwise.
18:30:50 <Deewiant> But, I don't have many benchmarks. I have the Underload interpreter and then the synthetic ones from Fungicide and that's it.
18:31:08 <elliott> Deewiant: Hey, Drepper ain't in charge any more.
18:31:14 <elliott> Deewiant: (Have you tried musl?)
18:32:30 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:32:33 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 5d 2h 23m 1s ago: There is a local company called AIS Gas. Thought you should know.
18:32:33 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover said 5d 2h 22m 31s ago: what does the i in your name stand for
18:32:33 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 4h 50m 47s ago: Did you ever find the fifth binary digit of pi?? (`quote 366)
18:32:35 <Deewiant> elliott: I noticed he was still CC'd when I submitted it, though. In any case as far as I could tell glibc only #ifdefs stuff for GCC, so I wouldn't be surprised if it were stopped.
18:32:48 <Deewiant> elliott: And no, I haven't tried any other libcs.
18:32:56 <ais523> @tell GreyKnight not using /that/ program, I've since determined it using other means
18:33:01 <HackEgo> 366) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
18:33:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I ASKED YOU IF IT WAS IAN AND YOU SAIT IT WASN'T
18:33:18 <Deewiant> elliott: This was just to get my C++ conversion running at the same speed as the C version before switching it to use exceptions.
18:33:19 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I thought I had a no-confirm-or-deny policy
18:33:28 <ais523> also, why does nobody ask what the s stands for?
18:33:47 <elliott> Alex I[redacted]s series, number 523
18:33:53 <Phantom_Hoover> because your first and last names are extremely easy to find
18:34:07 <elliott> Deewiant: So can your mushspace-based interpreter actually run programs?
18:34:30 <Deewiant> elliott: Sure, so I could run the benchmarks.
18:34:44 <FreeFull> > let x y = 1:y in return 3 =>> x =>> x
18:34:53 <elliott> Deewiant: Right, I just didn't know you'd gotten so far yet.
18:34:56 <FreeFull> > let x y = 1:y in return 3 >>= x >>= x
18:34:57 <lambdabot> No instances for (GHC.Num.Num [[b0]], GHC.Num.Num [b0])
18:35:13 <elliott> Deewiant: I take it it'll be released in 5 years when it's perfect
18:35:14 <Deewiant> elliott: It implements ( by checking that the input is 'STRN' and then sets strn_enabled to true. A-Z check for strn_enabled and then do the STRN stuff.
18:35:29 <FreeFull> > let x y = [1,y] in return 3 >>= x >>= x
18:35:48 <elliott> You should implement all the fingerprints that way for speed IMO.
18:35:49 <Deewiant> elliott: It's around 600 lines long (plus an old 1000-line stack impl) with a couple dozen globals.
18:36:09 <Deewiant> Needless to say it doesn't pass Mycology. ;-P
18:36:51 * elliott remembers all the wonderful Mycology-is-messed-up bugs in Shiro wistfully
18:37:17 <Deewiant> I think it gets up to the y stuff.
18:37:58 <Deewiant> case 'y': { cell n = cc_pop(cc); switch (n) { case 9: cc_push(cc, mushcursor2_get_pos(cursor).x); break; case 10: cc_push(cc, mushcursor2_get_pos(cursor).y); break; } break; }
18:38:09 <Deewiant> Almost complete y implementation.
18:38:39 * elliott wonders what cc stands for.
18:38:48 <elliott> Hmm, I wonder if I could micro-optimise my stack implementation for speed.
18:38:55 <elliott> I think I even just used a strict linked list in shiro.
18:39:00 <elliott> Though that may well be the best it gets.
18:39:06 <Deewiant> elliott: I think I implemented fingerprints essentially that way in CCBI. Each A-Z got codegenned to a switch based on the topmost active fingerprint for that letter, or something.
18:39:13 <Deewiant> Or then it was just in my TODO list.
18:39:35 <Deewiant> cc stands for CellContainer because that's what my stack impl calls its datatype.
18:40:05 <ais523> elliott: it stands for current continuation in all contexts
18:40:06 <elliott> In Shiro I just did the boring thing of having a list-as-stack of Shiro ()s for each A-Z.
18:40:28 <Deewiant> elliott: Yeah, I did that in CCBI 1, at least. Not sure about 2.
18:41:06 <Deewiant> Btw feel free to bikeshed a better name for something that can be either a stack or a deque.
18:41:09 <elliott> I could probably do that codegen thing, though it'd involve either TH or cpp, neither of which I really want to use.
18:42:48 <Deewiant> I think I see what you're going for but I also think that's a bit too opaque. :-P
18:44:34 * elliott thinks "deque" is pretty opaque too.
18:47:16 <Deewiant> What do you mean? If it's a deque it's a deque.
18:47:49 <elliott> "deque" is opaque but standard, "xiyo" is opaque but non-standard.
18:48:16 <Deewiant> And CellContainer is not opaque, just verbose. :-P
18:48:45 <elliott> Deewiant: How about "staque"
18:48:50 <elliott> (This is a serious suggestion)
18:49:04 <Deewiant> Heh, that could actually work.
18:49:39 <Deewiant> I might go with that when I do my cleanup of it, thanks.
18:50:18 <elliott> Deewiant: If you make a version based on hashing the stack elements with an SHA algorithm you could call it Shaquille O'Neal.
18:50:31 <elliott> ok I am really terrible these days
18:51:51 <elliott> I wonder how fast a Rust Funge could be.
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19:11:12 <kmc> i'm learning about funge-98
19:11:19 <kmc> this stack stack business is strange
19:11:33 <kmc> it reminds me of that old CPU architecture that had a register to determine which register is the instruction pointer
19:12:28 <elliott> the real weirdness Deewiant is talking about is an extension fingerprint
19:12:37 <elliott> some of them do really horrific stuff like that
19:13:35 <zzo38> I have made a few changes to the specification of Complex Numeric Print in RogueVM.
19:14:36 <zzo38> It has a lot more options than printf.
19:15:40 <kmc> also concurrent funge-98 specifices lock-step exceution of threads?
19:16:00 <elliott> kmc: It's not concurrent-concurrent.
19:16:06 <elliott> It's there to make things more confusing, not for speed.
19:16:22 <elliott> Also Funge-98 with continuous time barely makes any sense.
19:16:23 <kmc> yeah cause shared memory multiprocessing isn't confusing
19:16:32 <kmc> sure it would not have to be continuous time
19:16:52 <kmc> you would still have discrete steps on each IP, you would just let implementations step the IPs in any order
19:17:01 * elliott wonders how true Funge-98 concurrency and TRDS would interact.
19:17:02 <Deewiant> Vorpal was doing a fingerprint for completely asynchronous IPs
19:17:09 <kmc> maybe with some liveness criterion
19:17:23 <kmc> it is hard to prove anything about concurrent programs without some liveness criterion
19:17:29 <kmc> but, it is hard to prove anything about concurrent programs
19:17:36 <elliott> (http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#TRDS, http://www.rcfunge98.com/trds.html)
19:17:49 <fizzie> All the real multiprocessor-friendly Funge apps use ATHR instead. It's like POSIX threads to Funge-98. Or would, and would be, if it existed.
19:17:55 <FreeFull> Not in scope: data constructor `Writer'
19:18:01 <fizzie> fungot: Would you want to be running on ATHR?
19:18:01 <fungot> fizzie: i love how maxima can generate tex output is literally: case is preserved, special characters may be there, does not work
19:18:14 <fizzie> fungot: You could be thinking about babbling and running a brainfuck program at the SAME TIME.
19:18:14 <fungot> fizzie: university programming one of those dating sims. i can't use
19:18:21 <fizzie> fungot: Except not since you run on a single-core machine.
19:18:22 <fungot> fizzie: it would only take about an hour that he is a monk. ( not that i know much more about macrology as i do
19:19:48 <zzo38> Does the output it makes up have any relation to the input?
19:20:16 <elliott> Sometimes it does by accident.
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19:21:30 <fizzie> In one sense invocations of ^bool have a relation to the input, because they probably eat random numbers from the PRNG sequence.
19:21:44 <oerjan> FreeFull: the library was reorganized so Writer is now writer (and is just a function)
19:22:26 <oerjan> or actually a method, after they generalized it
19:23:05 <elliott> fizzie: When was the last time fungot got anything new?
19:23:06 <fungot> elliott: evil can be an operator or anything. fnord! shub-niggurath! as a book to that particular type
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19:23:27 <fizzie> A long, long time ago.
19:23:40 <fizzie> "last change: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 00:18:53 +0000"
19:23:44 <oerjan> as you can see, fungot is clearly in need of a new sacrifice
19:23:44 <fungot> oerjan: then just do what you want and where :) it was repeating so much code using these idioms that their abbreviation is helpful?
19:23:52 <FreeFull> Why didn't Learn You A Haskell get updated
19:24:11 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling I did a bugfix and didn't commit it.
19:25:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gWUA yeah that's a bugfix.
19:26:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's what it runs on, momus.zem.fi.
19:28:17 <fizzie> I wonder what the first fix is all about. The second is the bugfix about <> combining in brainfuck bytecode translation.
19:29:14 <fizzie> It's some parameter to the babble randomizer.
19:29:21 <fizzie> I suppose it could be the number of rounds.
19:29:43 <fizzie> (Each round through ? generates two bits of randomness; c -> f would mean 20 -> 30 bits.
19:29:53 <elliott> fizzie: Have you considered updating the IRC data set? That woudl be exciting.
19:30:27 <Deewiant> You now have 15 instead of 11 on the top of the stack when hitting that v next to the _, if I read that right.
19:30:29 <GreyKnight> Think how many lenses fungot would talk about!
19:30:29 <lambdabot> GreyKnight: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:30:29 <fungot> GreyKnight: the fallback plan is to be root to sniff keyboard on *nix
19:30:52 <fungot> GreyKnight: gcc fnord infopage doesn't mention how one'd get the number of inversions in the vector, but fnord
19:31:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yeah, and if I read the \4* ... ? 0/1/2/3+ \ 1- |loop kinda thing right, it's the round count.
19:31:31 <fizzie> (That wasn't actual Funge-98, that was kind of like a pseudocode notation.)
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19:42:39 <elliott> Bike: you should write my funge-98 interpreter for me once you're done with eodermdrome
19:42:52 <ais523> ooh, someone's implementing eodermdrome?
19:43:30 <Bike> aren't there already funge-98 interpreters, though
19:43:39 <elliott> ais523: yes, Bike. we are holding him to it
19:43:47 <elliott> Bike: yes. in fact I already wrote one. but I want to write version 2 of it
19:43:54 <elliott> and by "I want to write", I mean I want you to write
19:44:28 <Bike> so what makes it version two, as opposed to version one
19:44:28 <GreyKnight> I notice a theme running through elliott's projects :-U
19:44:32 <Bike> aside from being ghostcoded
19:44:53 <elliott> it should be faster and have more features and cleaner code. mainly it should make Deewiant feel inferior somehow
19:45:01 <elliott> on my desk by tomorrow please
19:45:17 <Bike> why do you get a desk
19:45:25 <GreyKnight> Your Christmas bonus is dependent on completion
19:46:10 <elliott> Bike: the desk is for collecting things other people do for me
19:46:16 <elliott> where else would I put them
19:46:42 <zzo38> What timezone do you want that tomorrow in?
19:47:37 <Bike> maybe you could just put them in like, a bin
19:47:51 <Bike> then it would be easier to get, say, liquids other people do for you
19:47:59 <Bike> what if i want to implement befunge as an actual fungus, for example
19:48:05 <Bike> it would eat your desk!
19:48:17 <kmc> we are growing a bunch of fungus in my room
19:48:22 <kmc> oyster mushrooms and king trumpet mushrooms
19:48:27 <Bike> are they befunge interpreters
19:48:33 <zzo38> Is desk good to eat?
19:48:43 <elliott> kmc: you typed that second line before I could make a drugs joke
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19:48:47 <elliott> you are ruining my "kmc experience"
19:48:56 <kmc> no i don't think they're befunge interpreters
19:49:11 <Bike> zzo38: depends, how good are you at digesting cellulose?
19:49:17 <Bike> On a scale of one to ten.
19:49:20 <kmc> unless they are running a program whose meaning is "spread a bunch of wispy mycelium throughout a jar of rye grain"
19:49:26 <zzo38> Bike: I don't mean me!
19:49:59 <elliott> I think the worst thing about GHC is how it handles type variables.
19:50:24 <elliott> when you get an error about how it can't match x_t8z with y7 there's no real way you can trace those back to the type variables in your actual source code without a ton of work
19:50:40 <elliott> it would be nice if it used a richer representation that kept track of the *source location* and actual original name of the type variable
19:50:57 <elliott> and also represented bindings in a smarter way so it doesn't have to keep renaming type variables internally all the time
19:51:35 <Bike> it's a shame that physarum machines is so expensive, i'd be all over that shite. not that slime molds are actually fungi, but, you know, baby steps.
19:52:04 <kmc> i did not know about these
19:52:15 <Bike> about type variables?
19:52:19 <oerjan> i hear slime molds aren't even _officially_ fungi any more
19:52:30 <Bike> well they're not
19:52:32 <GreyKnight> Maybe we can simulate the known behaviours of slime molds and figure out if they're TC
19:52:53 <kmc> so now they have no kingdom?
19:53:18 <GreyKnight> A kingdom, a kingdom! My horse for a kingdom!
19:53:24 <Bike> «In more strict terms, slime molds comprise the mycetozoan group of the amoebozoa» well ok
19:54:12 <Bike> which reminds me, do you all have a favorite phylum
19:54:20 <Bike> mine is placozoa, because there's only one thing in it
19:56:43 <Bike> it's latin for "some flat shit"
19:56:51 <Bike> they're even simpler than sponges, like how do you even manage that?
19:57:50 <elliott> 19:57:23 <elliott> > sequence [1,2,3]
19:57:50 <elliott> 19:57:25 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (m0 a0))
19:57:50 <elliott> 19:57:25 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `e_1123'
19:57:50 <elliott> 19:57:26 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (GHC.Num.Num (m0 a0))No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 [a0]))
19:57:53 <elliott> 19:57:28 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M4696126599521770064.show_M4696126599521770064'
19:57:56 <elliott> 19:57:30 <lambdabot> Possible fix:
19:57:58 <elliott> 19:57:33 <lambdabot> add an instance declaration for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 [a0]))
19:58:04 <elliott> I wonder what's up with that M thing.
19:58:05 <elliott> oerjan: (nethack reference)
19:58:06 <Bike> those are some hella names right there
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20:02:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slime_mold#In_popular_culture
20:02:27 <Bike> the slime mold is widely agreed to be the best character in nusicaa.
20:10:48 <fizzie> For some reason I managed to read that as "the best character in Indiana Jones movies".
20:10:58 <fizzie> It was confusing, since I don't remember any very prominent slime molds in them.
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20:15:27 <GreyKnight> You never watched Indiana Jones and the Amulet of Yendor?!
20:16:41 <elliott> fizzie: How do you read "nusicdaa" as "the Indiana Jones movies"?
20:17:47 <elliott> TECHNICALLY *Nausicaä take that
20:18:15 <oerjan> THAT'S WHAT I SAID, NAUSICAÄ
20:18:28 <Bike> Well you didn't capitalize it.
20:18:34 <Bike> Though I guess you just made up for that.
20:20:15 <elliott> I could overpedant by poniting out that "in Nausicaä" still isn't quite pedantic-accurate.
20:20:44 <Bike> the elliott anime compiler collection
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20:24:02 <oerjan> gah it's so hard to google a satisfactory "that's the joke" picture
20:29:02 <fizzie> elliott: Well, you have to admit, they *are* quite similar, stringwise.
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20:34:01 <fizzie> elliott: I... guess? They have moving pictures.
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20:45:41 <ais523> <sribe> (You think I'm kidding? Why do you think the packet length in ATM is 48 instead of 32 or 64? Yep, the average of two competing proposals over length...)
20:45:43 <ais523> please let this be true
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20:52:31 <FireFly> In that vein, why don't we do the same with array indices? http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2006-05/msg00281.html
20:55:58 <Deewiant> ais523: That's what Wikipedia says
20:56:14 <Deewiant> The choice of 48 bytes was political rather than technical.[5] When the CCITT (now ITU-T) was standardizing ATM, parties from the United States wanted a 64-byte payload because this was felt to be a good compromise in larger payloads optimized for data transmission and shorter payloads optimized for real-time applications like voice; parties from Europe wanted 32-byte payloads because the small size (and
20:56:15 <Deewiant> therefore short transmission times) simplify voice applications with respect to echo cancellation. Most of the European parties eventually came around to the arguments made by the Americans, but France and a few others held out for a shorter cell length. With 32 bytes, France would have been able to implement an ATM-based voice network with calls from one end of France to the other requiring no echo
20:56:17 <Deewiant> cancellation. 48 bytes (plus 5 header bytes = 53) was chosen as a compromise between the two sides.
20:56:20 <ais523> well, that probably increases the chance of it being true
20:56:49 <Deewiant> To conference proceedings, no less
20:57:24 <kmc> i love how every component of the web uses a different method for escaping special characters
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20:57:41 <kmc> apparently in CSS you write a backslash followed by however many hex digits you want
20:58:00 <kmc> if you want to escape a one-byte character, followed by an unescaped letter a-f, you are screwed
20:58:08 <kmc> you can insert a space and the parser will eat the space
20:58:20 <kmc> also apparently Internet Explorer lets you embed javascript in style sheets
20:58:42 <Bike> kmc: why would you even want to do that?
20:59:05 <kmc> the web is so awful for security
20:59:18 <kmc> this idea that parsers should try their hardest to ignore errors
20:59:26 <shachaf> Everything is awful for security. :-(
20:59:31 <kmc> and make some random guess at the meaning of a malformed document
20:59:41 <ais523> kmc: well XHTML tried to change that
20:59:44 <ais523> and see where it ended up…
20:59:46 <Bike> well, you may recall that that's sort of necessary since nobody writes conforming html >_>
20:59:49 <kmc> but there are some design principles that can help security, and the web takes basically the opposite designs in most cases
20:59:59 <kmc> Bike: and the reason nobody writes conforming HTML is that browsers accept this nonsense!
21:00:08 <kmc> it's a vicious cycle that we are pretty much stuck with
21:00:08 <ais523> Bike: Google left the </html> off their homepage to save bandwidth
21:00:08 <Bike> it's a vicious cycle of bullshit
21:00:16 <Bike> you're shitting me.
21:00:26 <ais523> apparently they're so large it actually makes a measurable difference
21:00:37 * elliott thinks you can argue Postel's law both ways from a security POV, but won't bother.
21:00:49 <kmc> what's the argument in favor?
21:00:55 <ais523> Bike: you can check, it's not like the source of Google's homepage is secret
21:01:01 <Bike> kmc: so, what does this book say about user agents? because they're the most hilarious web bullshit i'm aware of
21:01:03 <elliott> kmc: I just said I won't bother!
21:01:07 <kmc> haven't got there yet
21:01:08 * elliott wonders why google has a <head> still.
21:01:09 <kmc> elliott: :( :( :(
21:01:23 <Bike> «Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/535.19 (KHTML, like Gecko) Ubuntu/11.04 Chromium/18.0.1025.151 Chrome/18.0.1025.151 Safari/535.19»
21:01:31 <Bike> now the question is, what browser am i actually using
21:02:04 <Deewiant> Not Internet Explorer, that's for sure
21:02:07 <Bike> and google.com has an </html> here. maybe it's because i'm getting it through spdy and that's more savings than http
21:02:50 <Bike> wow, apparently the newest IE's user agent is «Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 10.6; Windows NT 6.1; Trident/5.0; InfoPath.2; SLCC1; .NET CLR 3.0.4506.2152; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 2.0.50727) 3gpp-gba UNTRUSTED/1.0»
21:02:52 <elliott> Yes, they even have head and body tags and so on.
21:03:11 <Deewiant> My Chromium doesn't have that Chromium/foo bit, I guess that's Ubuntu messing about.
21:03:36 <ais523> Bike: "UNTRUSTED/1.0"?
21:03:38 <Deewiant> And I think those .NET things only show up if you have them installed.
21:03:45 <Deewiant> (At least, one would hope so.)
21:03:47 <Bike> ais523: no idea, i copied it from the internet
21:03:57 <ais523> I'm also amused it doesn't claim to be WebKit
21:04:06 <Bike> still claims to be mozilla though.
21:04:24 <ais523> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux i686; rv:17.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/17.0
21:04:38 <ais523> everything claims to be mozilla, that's the web standard way of saying you support frames
21:04:57 <Bike> though does anyone use frames any more anyway
21:04:58 <shachaf> Hmm, I should disable Mozilla/ in my user agent.
21:04:58 <elliott> if only browsers didn't support frames any more
21:05:11 <ais523> Bike: Java's official documentation still does
21:05:29 <Deewiant> Re. UNTRUSTED/1.0, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/wmlprogramming/message/34420 (requires cookies)
21:05:52 <ais523> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686) AppleWebKit/537.4 (KHTML, like Gecko) Ubuntu/12.10 Chromium/22.0.1229.94 Chrome/22.0.1229.94 Safari/537.4
21:06:28 <ais523> why would IE be displaying something J2ME-related?
21:06:43 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
21:07:03 <elliott> Deewiant: "requires cookies", really.
21:07:25 <Deewiant> ais523: If the J2ME thing is being run inside IE? Or if it just put a IE string in front to look more legitimate
21:07:55 <ais523> J2ME is used to write applications for very early smartphones
21:07:55 <Deewiant> elliott: I debated it for a number of seconds and then figured this channel is one of the few places somebody might complain about it so might as well
21:08:07 <ais523> I don't think it's used for anything else
21:08:18 <Deewiant> Ah, it doesn't support applets, darn
21:08:21 <ais523> elliott: the fun fact is that I already had 10 cookies from Yahoo!
21:08:28 <ais523> because of my webmail account with them
21:08:35 <ais523> yes, the fun fact, there is only one
21:08:48 <elliott> Deewiant: I'm more curious as to how you knew :P
21:09:05 <ais523> elliott: he probably has cookies off by default
21:09:08 <ais523> or set to prompt, like me and Vorpal
21:09:20 <elliott> That seems overly unreasonable for Deewiant.
21:09:46 <ais523> elliott: I like using browser settings which reduce the scope for websites to annoy me
21:09:47 <Deewiant> Off by default and a Firefox extension with which I can quickly enable them per-site, and temporarily/session cookies only/all.
21:10:14 <Deewiant> Cookie Monster, it seems to be called.
21:10:40 * elliott has been vaguely considering blocking JS by default for RAM-related reasons recently, though I should probably just enable some swap.
21:11:02 <Deewiant> (I also run Noscript, Adblock, and Ghostery. I'm like that.)
21:11:24 <Deewiant> (My Firefox startup time is like 10x what it is by default.)
21:11:42 <elliott> You weird Firefox users and your extensions that are worth a damn.
21:11:47 <elliott> We Chrome people don't have problems like that.
21:12:06 <Fiora> I use ghostery and adblock on chrome~
21:12:06 <Deewiant> I've considered forging referers by default but that tends to break things silently so it's a bit too much of a pain.
21:12:15 <Gregor> elliott: #1 reason I got 16GB of RAM in my new system was so that I can run Firefox nicely.
21:12:28 <elliott> Gregor: I bet it wasn't enough.
21:12:35 <Fiora> isn't firefox still 32-bit-only though? :<
21:12:39 <ais523> Deewiant: I have a referer forger on by default on a few sites
21:12:48 <ais523> I originally installed it for esolangs.org after that hilarious incident with the spam filter
21:12:51 <ais523> elliott: do you remember that?
21:12:54 <elliott> Fiora: IME Chrome's Adblock Plus is really shitty. I still use it, but it's really shitty.
21:12:59 <Deewiant> ais523: Yes, I enable it on some sites as well, but only manually. I default to normal referers.
21:13:11 <Fiora> oh... right, the no support for 64-bit firefox thing is a windows thing
21:13:18 <elliott> I think referers are the worst thing about HTTP
21:13:21 <fizzie> I believe there are quite a few frameless doclets for javadoc, though. (But the Standard Doclet indeed is still very framy.)
21:13:21 <Deewiant> HTTPS Everywhere also breaks some sites, but it gets updated and all and generally works well.
21:13:32 <Fiora> I remember something about how their JS recompiler was still 32-bit only so 64-bit was slower
21:13:35 <elliott> I am paranoid about opening new tabs before pasting in URLs just in case it leaks the referer or whatever.
21:13:36 <Fiora> but that might have changed
21:13:49 <Gregor> Deewiant: HTTPS Everywhere is really nice until the day you try to log in with some stupid DNS-redirecting wifi hotspot ;)
21:13:59 <ais523> elliott: if you type the address by hand, it doesn't refer, IIRC
21:14:09 <elliott> Deewiant: My only experience with HTTPS Everywhere was someone asking someone else to re-enable HTTPS on their site after moving servers because apparently HTTPS Everywhere never, ever forgets that a site supports HTTPS, even if it stops working.
21:14:30 <Deewiant> Gregor: You can always disable it temporarily. Haven't run into anything that stupid, fortunately. :-P
21:14:31 <fizzie> My desktop is constantly running out of its four gigabytes. :/ :\ :/ :\ -- and it only has two DIMM slots, and 4G DDR2 DIMMs are annoyingly expensive.
21:14:31 <elliott> Also HTTPS is, like, slow. :(
21:14:46 <elliott> fizzie: I have 4 gigs too!
21:14:49 <elliott> fizzie: Do you have any swap?
21:14:56 <elliott> I'm not sure whether enabling it will make things go smoother or just make the churns even worse.
21:15:04 <fizzie> I don't know. They are quite bad.
21:15:07 <elliott> Having hundreds of Chrome tabs is... not very sustainable.
21:15:23 * elliott has to open a new window every once in a while because otherwise the tabs get too small to see the favicons.
21:15:25 <zzo38> Use SSH for secure connections rather than HTTPS
21:15:41 <Fiora> I want tree-style tabs for chrome :<
21:15:43 <Gregor> <Deewiant> Gregor: You can always disable it temporarily. Haven't run into anything that stupid, fortunately. :-P // it's not enormously difficult to get around, but with hotspots, I've found it easier to just momentarily open Chrome 8-D
21:15:53 <elliott> It would be nice if the customisability of Firefox extensions wasn't tied to such a shitty browser.
21:16:19 <Deewiant> Meh, I think the browser's fine.
21:16:31 <elliott> You probably have a jillionbyte of RAM.
21:16:32 <fizzie> elliott: From what I recall last time I did it, it drops from 90% used into something like 25% used if I close Chromium, then goes back up to maybe ~60% used if I reopen it and let it open the saved tabs.
21:16:49 <elliott> Also whenever its layouting/styling/text formatting/whatever differs from Chrome I always find Firefox's handling distinctly worse.
21:16:52 <Deewiant> Chrome doesn't even have ctrl-shift-enter and company on the URL bar, only ctrl-enter (IIRC).
21:17:12 <Gregor> Chrome doesn't have /-searching.
21:17:15 <Gregor> Therefore it's fucking worthless.
21:17:18 <elliott> fizzie: I often have to mash <xmonad>-2 killall -9 chromium <enter> <enter> <enter> because my computer is frozen as heck.
21:17:23 <elliott> fizzie: Then I roepen it and let it restore the tabs.
21:17:36 <elliott> (It's nice how killall -9 > killall for Chromium precisely because otherwise you lose the "restore tabs" functionality...)
21:17:49 <Deewiant> This is the non-shitty browser you're talking about?
21:17:51 <elliott> Sometimes I deliberately kill -9 it before turning the computer off so I can restore the tabs.
21:18:00 <fizzie> Chromium "Private" memory use 2'086'860k, well, that's not so bad.
21:18:05 <elliott> Deewiant: um???? You've forgotten axiom 1 of everything: everything sucks
21:18:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's more than my Firefox's virtual usage
21:18:41 <Gregor> The problem is that people look at the memory use of their browser and think that's a good metric.
21:18:44 <Deewiant> elliott: That's just your attitude
21:18:49 <Gregor> Even though your browser WILL run better if it snarfs more memory.
21:18:58 <Gregor> It's just a trick of actually being able to give it back when somebody else needs it.
21:19:02 <elliott> Deewiant: Anyway Firefox also rewards kill -9 in the same way.
21:19:16 <elliott> Even moreso, since it supports partial tab restores and even recursive tab restores ("the ineiros method").
21:19:25 <Gregor> elliott: Kinda. You can always go to about:home to get to the last tabs, no matter how you close it.
21:19:33 <fizzie> Man, the ineiros method is the best method.
21:19:37 <elliott> Gregor: don't you mean "fnarfs more"
21:19:48 <elliott> fizzie: does he still use it
21:19:49 <Gregor> elliott: This is snarfing, it's different.
21:19:58 <fizzie> elliott: I haven't asked lately. I will ask now.
21:20:06 <fizzie> I probably won't receive a timely answer.
21:24:40 -!- Gregor has set topic: ⚣ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:25:39 <Gregor> I suddenly wonder if ⚣.com is free, but feel I shouldn't check it from work.
21:26:55 <Bike> looks free from here
21:27:16 <Gregor> Welp. Time to build a gay porn empire, I suppose.
21:30:26 <fizzie> Gregor: I don't know if that character is in any of the scripts of the languages Verizon likes: http://www.verisigninc.com/assets/idn-valid-language-tags.pdf
21:30:32 <fizzie> For some reason I'd guess "no".
21:31:04 <Gregor> IIRC, .org has no such restrictions?
21:31:10 <Gregor> Or maybe I'm imagining things.
21:31:17 <fizzie> .org is not Verisign, though.
21:31:26 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes, hence why I'm mentioning them.
21:31:33 <ais523> fizzie: huh, so I was right
21:31:41 <ais523> someone at a seminar asked if anyone knew what Verisign did
21:31:43 <fizzie> "The org domain registry allows the registration of selected internationalized domain names (IDNs) as second-level domains.[11] For German, Danish, Hungarian, Icelandic, Korean, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, and Swedish IDNs this has been possible since 2005. Spanish IDN registrations have been possible since 2007."
21:31:45 <ais523> I said they owned .com and .net
21:31:49 <ais523> the speaker said .com and .org
21:31:49 <Gregor> fizzie: If I can't get ⚣.com, maybe I can get ⚣.org. … the nonprofit of gayness.
21:32:00 <ais523> Gregor: you want it at .xxx, obviously
21:32:11 <Gregor> ⚣.xxx MUST be registered (if possible)?
21:32:19 <Gregor> There's no way everybody missed that.
21:32:28 <Bike> is .xxx even a valid tld?
21:33:14 <fizzie> "No, .xxx does not копирайт, 101домен support Internationalized Domain Names" sad.
21:33:30 <fizzie> Where did the cyrillic bits come from.
21:33:48 <elliott> Where's that official anti-.xxx thing?
21:33:58 <fizzie> Man, why is everything full of stupid nowadays? I hit two "put stupid stuff programmatically on clipboard when selecting text" websites recently within hours.
21:34:26 <Deewiant> That's why you use anti-stupid browser extensions. Or I do, anyway.
21:34:44 <fizzie> I didn't use to have to.
21:34:46 <ais523> Bike: it was added recently, amid a /lot/ of controversy
21:34:56 <fizzie> Anyway, I am under the impression that pretty much all the TLDs that do accept IDNs only whitelist scripts of specific languages, asince nobody likes IDN spoofery stuff.
21:35:02 <Bike> I remember hearing about people yelling about it in the american congress, but still, what
21:35:04 <elliott> Deewiant: Is there one that specifically blocks that copy nonsense?
21:35:20 <Deewiant> Noscript handles it fine, of course.
21:35:35 <elliott> Here we go: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3675
21:35:45 <elliott> "sex Considered Dangerous" -- IETF
21:35:52 <Bike> man, i can't find mentifex's domain names listing :(
21:36:08 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:36:36 <Bike> mentifex is actually my pastor.
21:37:32 <fizzie> Possibly just about:config dom.event.clipboardevents.enabled -> false would stop that on Firefox.
21:37:42 <fizzie> "dom.event.clipboardevents.enabled lets websites get notifications if the user copies, pastes, or cuts something from a web page, and it lets them know which part of the page had been selected. The emitting of the oncopy, oncut and onpaste events are controlled by this preference."
21:38:23 <fizzie> I suppose all those fancy smart document editor things might use it for something.
21:38:34 <Bike> for those sites that dump their URLs to your clipboard when you paste from them, duh
21:38:55 <fizzie> I wonder if it fires every time I select something, since selection equals copying.
21:39:41 <elliott> Clearly the solution is to use dillo2.
21:39:41 <fizzie> Our department-internal wiki opens the "edit" page if I doubleclick on anything, which is annoying because I use it for selecting words.
21:39:43 <elliott> I think it even does CSS now?
21:39:48 <elliott> fizzie: ugh I hate that too
21:40:00 <fizzie> It's a MoinMoin or something.
21:40:02 <Gregor> fizzie: Ugh, I've experienced that kind of Wiki.
21:40:44 <fizzie> And Atlassian Confluence flips the sidebar open and closed every time I press the Windows key, i.e. every time I switch from the workspace.
21:40:56 <ais523> btw, #esoteric's opinions on the recently discovered fact that any web page open in IE can determine where your mouse cursor is, regardless of whether the cursor is interacting with IE (or even whether IE's minimized)?
21:41:15 <elliott> ais523: that sounds theoretically bad but practically harmless
21:41:38 <ais523> elliott: the worst exploit I've heard of is reading presses into onscreen keyboards
21:41:54 <ais523> correct both ways but you need to parse it differently
21:42:06 <fizzie> #esoteric's opinion on that zero-day Samsung SmartTV thing that reportedly lets other people look/listen into your living room through the for-Skype-and-such webcam and mic?
21:42:15 <fizzie> (Maybe without 1984 jokes.)
21:42:30 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
21:42:31 <Gregor> fizzie: lol… shit, products I actually vaguely care about :(
21:42:46 <ais523> fizzie: it's hilarious that TVs have got smart enough that that mistake can even exist
21:42:58 <ais523> also people have been doing that with computer webcams for ages, haven't they?
21:43:02 <coppro> s/smart/loaded with useless features/
21:43:11 <ais523> the "please place your Mac near hot steam" incident was hilarious too
21:43:29 <fizzie> Back Orifice had camera/microphone commands for spying, IIRC.
21:43:37 <elliott> The solution is to use Linux so that your webcam does not actually work in the first place.
21:43:46 <fizzie> And this was at the very least a decade ago. Probably 15 years.
21:43:53 <Gregor> elliott: Tragically, they recently added support for virtually every webcam there is to Linux.
21:43:57 <fizzie> Not that ~anyone had a camera, though.
21:43:59 <coppro> ais523: yes, they have, which is why most newer built-in webcams on laptops have lights that are linked in hardware so that all recording turns on the light
21:44:38 <GreyKnight> <kmc> also apparently Internet Explorer lets you embed javascript in style sheets <-- FLAT WHAT
21:44:40 <zzo38> Put ductape on the camera
21:44:42 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that story about school giving out laptops to students, then using the webcams for peepery, and answering questions about that webcam LED that "it's just some random bug, just ignore it".
21:45:34 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District "Students were particularly troubled by the momentary flickering of their webcams' green activation lights, which several students reported would periodically turn on when the camera wasn't in use, signaling that the webcam had been turned on.[8][22][24][47] Student Katerina Perech recalled: "It was just really creepy."[24] ...
21:45:39 <kmc> yeah and it interacts with that escaping too
21:45:40 <fizzie> ... Some school officials reportedly denied that it was anything other than a technical glitch, and offered to have the laptops examined if students were concerned."
21:45:53 * elliott wonders what, exactly, they were thinking.
21:45:59 <kmc> so you can write "color: expression\028 alert \028 1 \029 \029"
21:46:05 <elliott> "The suit alleged that, in what was dubbed the "WebcamGate" scandal" please kill me
21:46:31 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix
21:46:40 <Bike> the US really needs to get its shit together, wrt naming shit
21:46:47 <kmc> fizzie: wow holy shit that's creepy
21:46:49 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ooh, Chisugate is there.
21:46:51 * elliott wonders what the kid was actually disciplined for. Give me my details Wikipedia!!!!
21:46:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: Though as a redlink.
21:47:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: Another "please kill me" type thing.
21:47:16 <elliott> oh good, there is a "gategate"
21:47:33 <elliott> oh, I heard about that Finnish piracy thing
21:47:37 <elliott> not that it had become a -gate
21:47:46 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
21:48:02 <elliott> "Flakegate – Photographs of the wedding reception of TV presenter Anthea Turner was used to promote Cadbury's new chocolate bar, Snowflake despite being paid £450,000 by OK! magazine for the exclusive deal of the wedding itself. The publicity stunt was widely criticised by tabloid press and further damaged her career, which has yet to recover."
21:48:07 <elliott> these gates are really bad
21:48:13 <fizzie> I didn't really bother following it. I think they just paid half of what was demanded in the end, or something?
21:48:28 <Bike> widely criticised by the tabloid press
21:48:51 <GreyKnight> *everything* is criticised by the tabloids, including other tabloids
21:49:01 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:49:34 <Bike> hm, does the british phone hacking thing have a -gate
21:49:38 <elliott> "PolarBeargate" THAT'S CHEATING
21:49:43 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:50:16 <kmc> heimdalsgate like a promethean curse
21:50:24 <Bike> fizzie: oh, yeah. :(
21:51:00 <FireFly> Apparently there's a swedish "gategate", which was named as such.. because it happened near a faregate
21:51:03 <elliott> I got to the "in popular culture" section but I didn't realise until I read a few.
21:51:19 <elliott> truly a sad indictment of our -gateing times
21:52:16 <elliott> shm-reduplicationgate, shm-reduplicationgate
21:53:00 <FireFly> ...not sure what kind of scandal would mandate such a name, though
21:54:06 <Bike> arguing over whether it should be eXclusive OR or EOR
21:55:03 <GreyKnight> fizzie: I assume they deliberately haven't revealed what the kid was "disciplined" for? Child privacy &c
21:57:37 <GreyKnight> I think the most outrageous thing about the webcam lawsuit is the school crying innocence and how they're going to fight these ~~horrible accusations~~
21:59:19 <Bike> my computer's built-in webcam has a physical shutter on it. seems like an obvious anti-1337cyberhacker measure but apparently not?
21:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> hm, does the british phone hacking thing have a -gate
21:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I've only ever heard it referred to as 'the phone hacking scandal' or somesuch.
22:00:06 -!- MDude has joined.
22:00:11 <Bike> well since fizzie mentioned it i remembered that i've heard it called "hackgate"
22:00:20 <Bike> which is kind of weird because i've never seen it in the american media, but oh well.
22:00:24 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
22:00:48 <kmc> 'The allegedly secure parser implementation included in [RFC 4627] unintentionally permits rogue JSON responses to freely increment or decrement any program variables that happen to consist solely of the letters a, e, f, l, n, r, s, t, u, plus digits'
22:02:07 <GreyKnight> Bike: wow, I don't think I've ever seen a webcam with a physical shutter
22:02:28 <Bike> it's just a piece of plastic.
22:02:32 <GreyKnight> kmc: link me too, I want to see this in action
22:02:32 <Lumpio-> "A JSON text can be safely passed into JavaScript's eval() function if all the characters not enclosed in strings are in the set of characters that form JSON tokens."
22:02:50 <Lumpio-> /[^,:{}\[\]0-9.\-+Eaeflnr-u \n\r\t]/ is one of the regexes
22:03:00 <Lumpio-> So I guess this allows you to do stuff like {"foo": e++}
22:03:41 <Bike> I would hope that anyone remotely versed in security would know that sanitizing with a regex probably isn't adequate
22:04:06 <kmc> uh that's a quote from a dead tree book
22:04:22 <elliott> i don't quite understand why you aren't allowed, e.g. z
22:04:23 <kmc> (why are our whats flat today?)
22:04:45 <Bike> elliott: because z isn't in any json token, i guess?
22:04:57 <elliott> well what json tokens have those letters even
22:05:41 <Bike> there's true and false
22:05:46 <Lumpio-> The tokens apat from strings are true, false, null and numbers
22:06:04 <elliott> "The school elected to enable TheftTrack to allow school district employees to secretly and remotely activate a tiny camera webcam embedded in the student's laptop, above the laptop's screen.[17][25][26][27] That allowed school officials to secretly take photos through the webcam, of whatever was in front of it and in its line of sight"
22:06:09 <elliott> why does this article explain how a webcam works
22:06:22 <Vorpal> elliott, This is so weird, I randomly have Portal in my steam collection. I never bought it. And the payment history on Steam doesn't list it. Note that I don't object to this. It is just totally weird.
22:06:50 <elliott> maybe someone gifted it to you or something
22:07:11 <Vorpal> I don't think anyone knows my steam user name, it is not like I use the "friend list" feature of steam
22:11:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:11:59 <ais523> Bike: sanitizing with a regex can work if you have a sufficiently well-defined acceptable input
22:12:48 <ais523> one of my colleagues is working on a system which regexes the I/O of a hardware subsystem to prevent non-accepted inputs
22:13:33 <ais523> in fact, regex comparison is how we even compare the systems to validate them
22:13:41 <ais523> (regexes have the nice property of actually being comparable)
22:13:50 <ais523> (unlike things like functions)
22:14:20 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt PCRE is comparable, even if you exclude the "invoke external code to match this" feature
22:14:32 <ais523> Vorpal: well, mathematical regular expressions
22:14:35 <ais523> PCRE is an interesting point
22:14:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: It was the Portal Ghost.
22:14:49 <Vorpal> right, math regex are comparable
22:14:52 <ais523> I'm not sure what computational class it is
22:14:55 <ais523> it's sub-TC, but super-PDA
22:15:06 <Bike> you can do CFGs with backreferences, right?
22:15:08 <FireFly> Vorpal: I recall it being free to grab for a couple of days once
22:15:20 <FireFly> you might've grabbed it then
22:15:33 <fizzie> It was free to grab, yes.
22:16:13 <fizzie> That was maybe a year and a bit ago.
22:16:45 <Vorpal> FireFly, recently? I haven't used steam for all that long, maybe a year or a bit more than that
22:16:55 <Vorpal> and this thing must have happened fairly recently
22:16:58 <FireFly> I think it was a bit more than a year ago :P
22:17:20 <Vorpal> I didn't have more than a couple of games until a few months back when I added in all the humble bundles
22:17:26 <Vorpal> so that doesn't make any sense
22:17:49 <Deewiant> ais523: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=809842 claims that they're at most LBA
22:18:37 <ais523> oh yeah, obviously they're LBA
22:18:45 <fizzie> September 2011, I'd say. Though maybe they did something Portal-related more recently too?
22:20:03 <fizzie> Everyone who already had Portal 2 got a 75% discount coupon for Portal 2, at least.
22:20:49 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JScript.Encode "The encoding is a simple polyalphabetic substitution using three alphabets."
22:20:52 <kmc> what the fuck
22:21:12 <GreyKnight> fizzie: everyone who had Portal 2 got a discount for Portal 2? This seems useful.
22:21:16 <Bike> lol, obfuscated code?
22:21:59 <ais523> Deewiant: that post is busy trying to invent Thue
22:23:12 <GreyKnight> kmc: "Weaknesses: it is busted open wide enough to drive a double-decker bus through"
22:25:01 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Just on the off chance you had friends you could inflict Portal 2 on.
22:25:40 <GreyKnight> I don't have Portal 2 or very many friends
22:26:02 <MDude> I think I heard of something like that camera thing quite a while ago.
22:26:23 <GreyKnight> MDude: the camera thing *was* a while ago, so may be the same thing!
22:31:21 <kmc> i assume (well, hope) that the engineers implementing JScript.Encode knew how worthless it is
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22:31:48 <fizzie> http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ so few single-core systems nowadays.
22:31:51 <kmc> it seems like a feature to appease the same kind of people who install a right click handler that pops up a dialog saying 'COPYRIGHT PROTECTED!!!'
22:32:37 <hagb4rd> interesting documentary bout some philosophical implications of gödels theorems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZ_9gQfitc&list=UUpBJxyp3T3GY1UExToSveRQ&index=5
22:33:14 <zzo38> My brother said he has been able to copy such pictures by dragging them into the location bar.
22:33:38 <Bike> hagb4rd: i think this guy needs to work on his intonation a bit
22:33:40 <MDude> I have very little clue what you're talking about with JSON/Javascript. Did I miss some part of it from before I showed up?
22:33:45 <Bike> elocution, there's the word.
22:33:47 <kmc> i mean i don't think the "suits" have to be idiots either
22:33:51 <kmc> they just know what will make customers happy
22:34:07 <hagb4rd> bike: it's not that bad. gibe it a chance
22:34:47 <Bike> plus apparently he's reading a godel paper?
22:34:53 <Bike> in which case i could just read tha paper
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22:35:03 <fizzie> Hey, I got that Steam "Big Picture" thing on. They must've released it.
22:35:15 <GreyKnight> Bike: Using video where text would do is gonna be the death of the internet -_-
22:35:24 <hagb4rd> he's not only quting gödel but.. sure you could do this
22:35:34 <GreyKnight> I have seen programming tutorials done in video. FLAT WHAT
22:36:26 <Bike> well, i kind of liked the game-of-life in J video i saw once. but that's because seeing it in the REPL helped somehow
22:36:32 <hagb4rd> it's not based on his work. this guy just put some quotes and pics and dramatical music ;) into what we probably call a documentary
22:38:32 <hagb4rd> this should me informative but also entertaining.. giving you some points to start a further investigation
22:43:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Hey, I got that Steam "Big Picture" thing on. They must've released it. <-- yeah it showed up like last week or so
22:45:48 <hagb4rd> (especially l love this background with the lemmings juming off the clip :)
22:48:43 <fizzie> "Valve's Jeri Ellsworth has told Engadget that public beta testing of Steam hardware could begin next year, saying that the goal of Valve's hardware efforts is "to make Steam games more fun to play in your living room." --" Yes, that sounds like something they want the Big Picture mode too.
22:49:01 <Vorpal> what was that tool to put cd images onto USB drives?
22:49:06 <Vorpal> I forgot the name of it
22:49:11 <zzo38> I see too much using video where text should do.
22:49:31 <Vorpal> now to find a large enough USB stick...
22:49:34 <fizzie> (I think it's kind of a silly name.)
22:51:06 <elliott> "Unetbootin?" "No, I'm USBootin."
22:51:35 <hagb4rd> zzo38: next time it'll be plain text i promise
22:52:23 <Vorpal> Debian or xubuntu? Which is best if you want the least hassle over time, I don't mind a slightly more annoying installer as long as it doesn't throw crap at me like modern ubuntu, or becomes a pain once I want to upgrade a year or two down the line.
22:52:58 <Vorpal> also it is going on top of an existing md raid & lvm2 setup
22:55:36 <elliott> Debian's installer will be able to set up RAID/LVM2 if you ask it for an advanced install.
22:55:50 <Vorpal> well that is a plus for debian certainly
22:56:03 * elliott hasn't used Debian or Xubuntu in a while.
22:56:07 <Vorpal> elliott, basically I need to reuse the existing /home, which is already on top of existing raid and lvm2
22:56:21 <Vorpal> I'm not going to repartition the whole thing
22:56:39 <fizzie> Ubuntu "alternative install" thing can/could do raid/lvm2. I haven't had that particular use case, but I would think it wakes up md and lvm2 volumes and all that.
22:56:48 <elliott> isn't the alternative install just debian's installer
22:57:00 <Vorpal> there is an alternative installer download at least
22:57:14 <Vorpal> and what about throwing crap at me? Does modern xubuntu suffer from that as well?
22:57:25 <Vorpal> what about other stuff, I haven't used debian for ages
22:57:28 <fizzie> It's at least very similar to installing Debian. Or was. I haven't installed an Ubuntu in the last two years, I'd guess.
22:57:39 <Vorpal> they still have a nonfree repo?
22:59:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, for debian, should I go for testing?
23:00:45 <fizzie> I ran testing on my desktop, I think. I don't really know how recommended it is, but it's certainly not very unstable.
23:00:51 <fizzie> Even unstable is not all that unstable.
23:01:19 <elliott> Vorpal: you might prefer unstable
23:01:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, unstable is the one that behaves like rolling updates (like arch), right?
23:01:24 <elliott> I found testing usually behind what I wanted
23:01:37 <elliott> there is "experimental" which is the actually breaks-your-system debian
23:01:44 <elliott> so unstable isn't necessarily unstable
23:02:02 <Vorpal> elliott, mostly I want something that takes zero effort to maintain and update once the initial setup is done.
23:02:17 <fizzie> Things do propagate "automatically" into testing. Though sometimes it lags a lot when there are bugs that don't seem to get fixed and dependencies pile up.
23:02:20 <elliott> okay well that is called not linux
23:02:23 <Vorpal> I don't want to have to do complicated manual stuff just to update glibc because stuff changed or whatever (glares at arch)
23:02:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what about android. If you go with stock firmware it behaves like that
23:03:01 <fizzie> Might go with Debian if I were to install something today. I went with Ubuntu because I was all "I'll be all modern desktop Linux for once", and now I'm running XMonad in Gnome 3.
23:03:04 <Vorpal> wouldn't work on a desktop though
23:03:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, xmonad in gnome?
23:03:15 <fizzie> It feels a bit silly in an Ubuntu.
23:03:32 <fizzie> Generally speaking just fine.
23:04:17 <fizzie> I suppose so, it's just that all the modules are named XMonad.
23:04:19 <zzo38> GreyKnight: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/bashgopher/bashgopher There may be some wrong thing for MinGW so you might need to fix it; possibly also it won't handle wildcards properly. If it is fixed it does work on Linux I have tested it; but, I don't have that copy on here
23:04:40 <GreyKnight> `addquote <Vorpal> elliott, mostly I want something that takes zero effort to maintain and update once the initial setup is done. <elliott> okay well that is called not linux
23:04:48 <HackEgo> 866) <Vorpal> elliott, mostly I want something that takes zero effort to maintain and update once the initial setup is done. <elliott> okay well that is called not linux
23:05:07 <Vorpal> thing is, I have better stuff to do than mess with updates
23:05:30 <elliott> Vorpal: i have a suggestion
23:05:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Anyway, the Gnome panel is the only visible gnomeness in this. All the rest is just stuff like nm-applet (bleh) and SSH/etc. key management, and stuff like that. Things that could be configured manually, but would need a bit of fiddling.
23:05:36 <zzo38> Then put DOS to avoid messing with updates since it doesn't need all complicated updates. It is also faster than Linux.
23:05:37 <Vorpal> elliott, xubuntu/ubuntu LTS is zero effort for about 2 years. But then it hits you badly
23:05:40 <elliott> Vorpal: don't use raid/lvm2
23:05:43 <elliott> if you want a simple painless experience
23:05:49 <Vorpal> elliott, eh, that is usually not the issue
23:05:50 <elliott> i agree w/ zzo38 install dos
23:06:31 <zzo38> You can download the DVD file and it will boot on a DVD and then it works.
23:06:32 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is that I'm dual booting and often use one OS for a long time then switch back for a couple of months and so on
23:06:41 <Vorpal> elliott, which means something like arch is just a pain
23:06:50 <fizzie> A graphical Ubuntu person could tell me what you're supposed to be using to install a piece of software, though? I tried to use Ubuntu Software Center, but it just didn't.
23:07:28 <fizzie> "Suggest 260 removals" well that doesn't sound terribly good.
23:07:34 <Vorpal> elliott, I don't mind arch if I would be using the system daily, then I could devote a couple of minutes each week to handle messy updates
23:07:45 <Vorpal> elliott, but all at once after 2-3 months? No thanks
23:08:00 <zzo38> fizzie: Actually I know apt-get works too
23:09:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I really like aptitude myself
23:10:17 <olsner> aptitude has a nice failure mode where every upgrade results in the suggestion to remove every other package on the system in order to install the upgrades
23:10:33 <fizzie> aptitude is what I use, and I've gotten reasonably comfortable with its quirks.
23:10:39 <fizzie> I just wonder what you're "supposed" to use.
23:10:48 <elliott> it used to suck but now it doesn't
23:11:03 <fizzie> Because I tried to use Ubuntu Software Center to install Skype, and only thing it could find for me were $4 paid articles in Linux magazines talking about Skype.
23:11:07 <Vorpal> elliott, oh? It had problems tracking the "installed as deps" flag thingy for me
23:11:46 <zzo38> GreyKnight: It is for MinGW. For UNIX you need to put "clear" in there. There might be other things necessary to fix too.
23:12:03 <zzo38> You might also need to make nc -q -1 since some computers require that too
23:12:33 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't like ncurses?
23:12:52 <elliott> Oh, I just mean the command-line interface.
23:12:57 <elliott> Who would use the silly ncurses thing?
23:13:16 <Vorpal> elliott, aren't the command line interfaces pretty much identical give or take the odd formatting difference?
23:13:24 <Vorpal> all the same commands and so on
23:13:34 <Vorpal> except apt-get source, don't think that is in aptitude, is it?
23:13:36 <elliott> they resolve deps differently etc.
23:13:55 <fizzie> "apt-get source" isn't in aptitude; "aptitude search" or "aptitude show" isn't in apt-get that I know of.
23:14:18 <fizzie> Porbably you could be using that instead.
23:14:39 <fizzie> It's a bit more focused on actual package thinging than browsing.
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23:15:17 <zzo38> GreyKnight: bashgopher is not really sophisticated so many things don't work; you can only have one open at a time, the history won't work, so on; but it can be used and does work for what I have tried, and it is not so good for download either. I also wrote Visgopher which is more sophisticated but it is for Windows. I may later write one UNIX program better than bashgopher, though.
23:15:19 <Vorpal> elliott, anyway I kind of like the ncurses interface in aptitude
23:15:23 <fizzie> In any case I don't think apt-get or aptitude either is the thing I'm "supposed" to use.
23:15:35 <Vorpal> but eh, it is fully usablke
23:15:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, I suspect the software store thingy
23:16:00 <zzo38> fizzie: Are you sure? I think Ubuntu is designed to make it work regardless which you used.
23:16:00 <fizzie> But I couldn't even install Skype with it.
23:16:01 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I get a blank screen with "0/0" at the bottom when connecting to you
23:16:13 <zzo38> GreyKnight: It is possible you need nc -q -1
23:16:16 <fizzie> And I would think Skype is something you are supposed to be able to install.
23:16:16 <Vorpal> I guess I'm going to run into grub 2 nowdays?
23:16:20 <zzo38> Some computers require nc -q -1
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23:17:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, couldn't install why?
23:17:06 <GreyKnight> I may use it as a base to try and get a lua gopher client working though so thanks anyway :-)
23:17:10 <zzo38> I don't remember what else is wrong, but maybe you can find them.
23:17:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: Because "only thing it could find for me were $4 paid articles in Linux magazines talking about Skype."
23:17:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, how annoying is switching up from testing to unstable, or the other way around?
23:17:30 <zzo38> Also, the user interface is not properly documented.
23:17:40 <Vorpal> just in case I go with testing but end up wanting unstable?
23:17:49 <zzo38> If you have Wine you could try Visgopher if you want to and see if it work.
23:18:14 <GreyKnight> fizzie, I managed to get skype on Ubuntu I think. Don't recall any issues... :-/
23:18:27 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Did you install it with Ubuntu Software Center?
23:18:38 <fizzie> I mean, I did just "aptitude install skype" and it worked perfectly.
23:18:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Going from testing to unstable sounds reasonably likely to work well, since it'd just be updating some packages.
23:19:07 <GreyKnight> I should hire a goldfish to remember things for me
23:19:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, and downgrading can run into the usual problems I guess
23:19:48 <Vorpal> elliott, if only NixOS was less experimental and had wider software support :/
23:20:04 <elliott> not sure I would call nixos low-maintanence
23:20:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: It certainly sounds a bit more iffy that way. I'm not sure if I've tried either switch. Though I did run a testing once that had quite a lot of stuff pulled in from unstable; you can just add sources for both and do pinning and so on.
23:20:12 <zzo38> If you do write it in Lua you can make it public too if you like it I want to see that too make available.
23:20:20 <Vorpal> elliott, true, but I attribute part of that to the experimental status
23:21:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm what about the backports repo thingy?
23:22:05 <fizzie> http://askubuntu.com/questions/211868/why-wont-skype-install -- seems I'm not the only person who hit that.
23:22:36 <fizzie> "apt-get install lib32stdc++ and dpkg -i some random Skype .deb from somewhere" doesn't sound like the best workaround.
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23:22:49 <fizzie> (And I did have the "Canonical partners" stuff enabled.)
23:23:47 <elliott> fizzie: that issue just sounds like someone without the partners repo
23:24:53 <lambdabot> karma <polynick>. Return a person's karma value
23:25:23 <shachaf> C-- is a popular intermediate language in #haskell
23:25:24 <GreyKnight> C++ has been mentioned about a million times surely
23:25:35 <shachaf> (But that's not the reason.)
23:26:14 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
23:26:15 <Vorpal> anyone remember what you need to pass to tar to make it properly handle special files, like block devices, pipes, unix sockets and so on?
23:26:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't really know about the backports repo. Do they have those for things other than stable nowadays?
23:26:23 <Vorpal> can't find it in --help
23:26:26 <fizzie> That's not too many increments.
23:26:53 <lambdabot> " \"nobody\" 2000\n \"C/C\" 347\n \"(\" 138\n \"+\" 109\n \"G\" 100\n \"shachaf\" 48\n \"dmwit\"
23:26:53 <lambdabot> 38\n \"libc\" 36\n \"##c\" 35\n \"\\\"C\" 31\n \"monochrom\" 31\n \"Notepad\" 31\n \"clang\" 30\n \"
23:26:53 <lambdabot> elliott\" 29\n \"#c\" 24\n \"Cale\" 24\n \"lambdabot\" 24\n \"i\" 20\n \"Jafet\" 20\n \"bonnie\"
23:26:53 <lambdabot> 19\n \"ObjC\" 18\n \"rwbarton\" 18\n \"sixthgear\" 18\n \"DevC\" 17\n \"edwardk\" 17\n \"ion\" 17\n \"libstdc\
23:26:53 <lambdabot> " 17\n \"byorgey\" 16\n \"vc\" 16\n \"cmccann\" 15\n \"elpolilla\" 15\n \"mauke\" 15\n \"shachef\" 15\
23:27:13 <shachaf> @@ @read @run reverse @show @karma-all
23:27:15 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
23:27:21 <shachaf> @@ @run reverse @show @karma-all
23:27:23 <lambdabot> "\n3282- \"<\" \n6762- \"sekahsklim\" \n377- ...
23:27:30 <shachaf> @@ @run unlines . reverse . lines @show @karma-all
23:27:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Base.String'
23:27:33 <elliott> 23:25:13 <Arc_Koen> @karma CPressey
23:27:40 <shachaf> @@ @run (unlines . reverse . lines) @show @karma-all
23:27:43 <lambdabot> " \"<\" -2823\n \"milkshakes\" -2676\n \"-\" ...
23:27:49 <elliott> have i really not ++'d cpressey at some point
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23:31:21 <Vorpal> GreyKnight, no? I'm indifferent to them
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23:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> in the next life he'll probably be a giraffe or something
23:40:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: " it is agile." unlambda: your functional programming language with first class subset/ quotient types? couldn't you explicitly dispatch on that? i'm using in conjure is fnord/ orca. the intention is to make a web site
23:40:49 <olsner> he will be django? what a fate :(
23:40:56 <GreyKnight> (fungot deserved that one from earlier)
23:40:57 <fungot> GreyKnight: as for the 0.0 in operator position, i'm still highly motivated ( perhaps too little) more than the solution that worked for me
23:43:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:43:16 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
23:43:26 <Bike> fungot: is a quotient type like a quotient set?
23:43:27 <fungot> Bike: what is it......
23:44:09 <fizzie> It's a confused style.
23:44:22 <fizzie> fungot: Just guess if you don't know.
23:44:22 <fungot> fizzie: umm.... thump... pound.... mi... ti... la... do this!?
23:44:43 <fungot> fizzie: and that sephiroth's here, cloud?
23:44:57 <Bike> i feel like there's a joke about ellipses to be made here, fungot.
23:44:57 <fungot> Bike: really! ...sniff... you!? are the preparations going? she died.
23:45:09 <Bike> either that or the translatioin's quality.
23:45:31 <fizzie> I seem to recall quite a lot of ellipses in the game.
23:45:36 <fungot> GreyKnight: the letter... what are we...? you just look a little longer! here!
23:45:45 <fizzie> fungot: Have you actually played FF7?
23:45:45 <fungot> fizzie: a battlefield, we wouldn't have come to the end!
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23:46:05 <Bike> where do you even get a full script of ff7
23:46:06 <MDude> Wait,what is fungot style?
23:46:06 <fungot> MDude: sorry to keep you company...
23:46:18 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
23:46:43 <fizzie> It's a somewhat small dataset.
23:46:44 <Bike> fungot, would you call Cloud "whiny"?
23:46:45 <fungot> Bike: i just wrote :p ( what was i thinking there.... :d sorry, i have no information. he seemed, in fine, i can verify it
23:47:00 <MDude> So it's a bit of a self-reinforcing style, I would guess.
23:47:23 <fizzie> It hasn't been re-estimated ever.
23:47:41 <fizzie> It would be more interesting if I kept it more up to date.
23:47:52 <fizzie> fungot: How old is this style already?
23:47:52 <fungot> fizzie: am i that much bad. take up, boy; open't. so, now go with, do miscarrie, thou had'st bin resolute pompey
23:48:31 <fizzie> Quite often you can guesstimate the source style.
23:49:03 <zzo38> Add Shakespeare style.
23:49:11 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
23:49:29 <zzo38> Also add style of the recordings of the Dungeons&Dragons game.
23:49:45 <fizzie> It's equivalent (FSVO; asymptotically speaking; discounting non-babble; with many assumptions) to a straightforward weighted interpolation of the styles.
23:50:22 <zzo38> Also add the Christmas style.
23:50:27 <fizzie> What are thee recordings?
23:50:40 <MDude> Is style pa quotations from all across Pennsylvania?
23:51:06 <zzo38> fizzie: One is, the one I wrote in my computer. But you need convert from TeX into unformatted if you want to use this one.
23:51:21 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
23:51:31 <fizzie> fungot: How's it going?
23:51:32 <fungot> fizzie: i thought i was goldilocks, seeing as you left me alone back there with three fucking bears. you want my advice? in the night. i've still got that paladin on dark iron, i guess natalie portman " sleepwalks" through her role in attack of the stupid name."
23:52:21 <fizzie> Personally I think this one manages to be quite amusing at times, but it's never been very popular.
23:52:30 <fizzie> fungot: Put some effort into it.
23:52:30 <fungot> fizzie: look out, cacodemons: there's a new mouse in town. don bluth joins forces with id software to spawn the ultimate tail 3: fievel goes to hell.
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23:53:00 <fizzie> The settings when this was built make it a bit overprone to quote verbatim.
23:53:23 <Bike> yeah, i was gonna say, that goldilocks bit sounded like a quote.
23:53:31 <fizzie> fungot: Omstart, more inspiration.
23:53:31 <fungot> fizzie: right, right. i should probably be at the store.
23:53:44 <elliott> fizzie: the problem is its jokes are mainly quotes
23:53:53 <fungot> shachaf: son, i can't actually see the road anymore.
23:54:11 <fizzie> It does mix things up. Sometimes. It's just being uncooperative.
23:54:19 <fizzie> That was a direct quote too.
23:54:21 <MDude> Fungot: Reprogram yourself to use less direct quotes.
23:54:38 <fizzie> fungot: And start being case-insensitive.
23:54:38 <fungot> fizzie: zero, i guess i don't give two shits bout it work at eidos. i had caught them all.
23:54:41 <MDude> Do you not respond when your name is capitalized?
23:54:54 <shachaf> MDude: "Fungot" is not fungot's name.
23:54:55 <fungot> shachaf: go fuck yourself. final fantasy viii, coming soon to a playstation near us! i just got them at the aucti- chocolate and waffle cones hung in the air, announce that i am forced to express the feelings that i have finally discovered the correct games in the correct sequence to maintain his interest in the genre forever.
23:55:10 <fizzie> It's kind of picky like that.
23:55:17 <fungot> Selected style: fisher (Fisher corpus of transcribed telephone conversations)
23:55:34 <Bike> does it respond to "afungota", say?
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23:56:01 <fizzie> fungot: It's just basically a strstr, right?
23:56:02 <fungot> fizzie: yeah laughter yeah or whichever way the wind is just kind of like
23:56:24 <fizzie> They've annotated some sounds.
23:56:38 <fizzie> Probably nobody said "laughter" out loud there.
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23:58:01 <MDude> And here I was wondering what kind of quotes you'd get from Fisher Price. Apparently none.
23:58:04 <Bike> does fungot respond to itself?
23:58:05 <fungot> Bike: i got so much more advanced but for a professional baseball player like i was the same kind of ah
23:58:27 <shachaf> Bike: Why would it do that?
23:58:29 <elliott> IRC doesn't echo lines back to you
23:58:45 <zzo38> Unless you send it to yourself.
23:58:59 <Bike> shachaf: i've seen bots that do.
23:59:19 <Bike> though it seems that fungot's befunge-98 standard is better than that.
23:59:20 <fungot> Bike: ( ( laughter noise noise
23:59:30 <fungot> shachaf: um i i've talked to
23:59:31 <Bike> Laugh it up, fungot. Laugh. It. Up.
23:59:32 <fungot> Bike: i just look for the area that's a very good thing to tell your kids not to use
23:59:37 <Bike> MDude: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Fisher_Price ?
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00:02:54 <fizzie> Less-known fact: fungot is actually a modified Fisher-Price My First IRC Bot.
00:02:54 <fungot> fizzie: he'll get rich they're entitled to make it legal they had some controversy over this before but i can't really recall anything that i've done
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00:03:42 <MDude> What a thorough and descriptive article.
00:03:48 <Bike> it'd be hard to get that to scan.
00:04:47 <MDude> Hmm, speaking of which, maybe a style based on a database of song lyrics?
00:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> scansion is just an oppressive construct imposed by society
00:05:37 <Bike> i wouldn't brave most lyrics sites even for fungot.
00:05:38 <fungot> Bike: or wanted to know uh do you wanna start or do you you swing your elbows more or do you have
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00:06:37 <MDude> It's a fact that every site that lists lyrics has the exact same GET IT FOR YOUR CELL PHONE NOW link.
00:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I may have seen a fairly tasteful lyrics site once or twice.
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00:20:39 <fizzie> Lyrics databases are kind of sucky, yes; and not very download-friendly. Very few fungot styles have been made by crawling.
00:20:40 <fungot> fizzie: are you familiar
00:20:44 <elliott> MDude: Is that a science fact?
00:20:51 <elliott> fizzie: Whaddabout that wiki one
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00:21:33 <fizzie> Wiki is from the XML or SQL dump, I forget which one.
00:21:54 <fizzie> PA and Homestuck are by crawling, though.
00:21:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:22:34 <fizzie> And iwcs and qwantz, I guess, okay.
00:23:15 <GreyKnight> are WP doing dumps again? I think it was broke last time I looked
00:23:40 <fizzie> Books are... ahem, well, some books may be of dubious legality. But I didn't read them, I just fed them to the bot!
00:24:23 <fizzie> It's the only wiki on fungot's list. (Except technically PA is by crawling a Wikia or some other such thing.)
00:24:23 <fungot> fizzie: you know you can't uh you know you
00:24:25 <Bike> youtube having an api to download comments would be kind of funny.
00:25:06 <fizzie> And there's some material from Project Gutenberg.
00:25:55 * ais523 agrees with GreyKnight
00:26:18 <fizzie> Bah schmah, it was a perfectly acceptable shorthand for a person typing on a phone.
00:26:59 <GreyKnight> okay I'll let you off since your phone (presumably) auto-capitalises the first letter
00:27:28 <fizzie> It was capitalized because sentences start with capital letters.
00:27:42 <zzo38> Add the Gutenberg style on fungot
00:27:42 <fungot> zzo38: mother and stepfather raised her and she's just turned eighty she uses her f- she has a
00:27:55 <GreyKnight> capital letters at the start of sentences is a weird rule if you think about it
00:28:09 <fizzie> zzo38 What's the Gutenberg style? Everything in there?
00:28:22 <zzo38> GreyKnight: It is the rule though, despite that.
00:28:39 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, I would guess so, everything public domain ASCII in there, counting, only.
00:28:59 <Bike> does gutenberg have non-public domain things?
00:29:01 <GreyKnight> throw it out! change ALL the rules! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
00:30:01 <fizzie> zzo38: I'll see if I get around to that.
00:30:34 <fizzie> Also perhaps the Internet style from google-ngram, I think that was on the TODO list too.
00:31:20 <fizzie> (It's not all of the Internet, it's just billion words from there.)
00:31:58 <Bike> oh, you know what would be fun, if a bit annoying to do? download the geocities archive and scrape text from that.
00:32:04 <elliott> 00:21:32 <fizzie> Wiki is from the XML or SQL dump, I forget which one.
00:32:07 <elliott> No I mean the lyrics wiki thing.
00:32:16 <elliott> IIRC most of the time it is just "we can't show this because copyrights" though, but maybe they have dumps??
00:32:22 <elliott> I think it's a wikia thing or whatever.
00:33:55 <fizzie> They didn't have dumps when I last checked. Or I couldn't find any.
00:34:21 <fizzie> I was looking for a song lyric language model for other reasons.
00:34:40 <zzo38> Then call it google-ngram style
00:34:44 <FreeFull> I wonder if anyone wrote a tracker (music tool) in haskell
00:34:48 <zzo38> If that is what it is.
00:35:12 <shachaf> google-ngram style? I hear that song is pretty popular these days.
00:35:16 <zzo38> FreeFull: I tried starting to write CsoundMML in Haskell, but now I am writing CsoundMML in C. There are other music stuff in Haskell
00:35:51 <zzo38> shachaf: Is it even a song?
00:36:02 <shachaf> zzo38: I think it's Korean.
00:36:25 <FreeFull> zzo38: But that wouldn't be a tracker at all
00:36:43 <zzo38> FreeFull: Correct, they aren't, but I don't know of a tracker music in Haskell though.
00:37:42 <zzo38> But maybe someone make CsoundTracker too some day; I have some ideas how it could work directly with Csound score files, using all of its feature (tempo change, repeats, comments, function tables, etc), but I do not intend to write it at this time.
00:37:48 <zzo38> First I will write CsoundMML
00:38:49 <FreeFull> http://canonical.org/~kragen/bytebeat/
00:39:21 <Bike> "new genre of music"
00:39:32 <Bike> oh, these things. they're fun. took a while to figure out how to do it with pulse though.
00:39:39 <zzo38> O yes I think I have seen thing like that before.
00:40:56 <FreeFull> I'm thinking this would be trivial to implement in Haskell
00:41:12 <kmc> T R I V I A L
00:41:14 <FreeFull> Also I pondered a tracker that would allow you to create synths by entering a formula
00:41:46 <FreeFull> I made an rpn parser that does that but didn't write the rest of the tracker
00:41:49 <zzo38> Csound can kind of do that, create synths by entering a formula.
00:41:53 <shachaf> Don't you have a fullwidth keyboard layout?
00:43:24 <kmc> haskell people use it to mean "our shit is so theoretically awesome that it doesn't matter if it actually works"
00:43:29 <kmc> you know all that engineering is "trivial"
00:43:36 <kmc> also it's just generally a douchebag way to say "easy"
00:43:39 <zzo38> FreeFull: But if you want to modify other tracker programs for .S3M format or whatever, to allow formula to be entered instead of load a file, you can try to do that.
00:43:44 <FreeFull> Well writing a bytebeat thing is trivial in any language
00:43:52 <HackEgo> 144) <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..." \ 173) <elliott> So it's not exactly trivial. [Later about same thing] <elliott> It's a trivial C program :P
00:44:00 <FreeFull> zzo38: That sounds too hackish
00:44:23 <kmc> this bytebeat stuff is cool
00:44:27 <FreeFull> In mathematics, often it can't be proven that something can't be done either
00:44:38 <zzo38> FreeFull: Is Csound format OK?
00:44:52 <FreeFull> Data.Bits pretty much would do most of the stuff for you
00:45:08 <FreeFull> zzo38: Does CSound do bitwise operators?
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00:45:21 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes, actually it does.
00:45:22 <kmc> it reminds me of crystal castles
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00:45:58 <zzo38> Nevertheless you have to deal with difference of k-rate and a-rate and so on, but many operators work on a-rate, and you can use UDO to change the k-rate to the same as the a-rate if you need to.
00:46:19 <MDude> It'd be neat to make a parser built into a little hardware thing also takes various audio inputs as extra variables.
00:46:19 <FreeFull> So I could do something like t & (t >> 3) and have it output something?
00:46:32 <MDude> Though I guess I wouldn't really use such a thing much.
00:46:46 <FreeFull> MDude: Someone made a parser that consists of a tiny chip, a battery and an audio jack
00:46:48 <Bike> Well writing a bytebeat thing is trivial in any language <-- sez you, arithmetic overflow isn't even defined to do that in C, is it?
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00:47:10 <zzo38> FreeFull: It is not quite that simple, and the syntax is not the same as C, but basically I think it would work.
00:47:34 <FreeFull> And if you use 16/32 bit ints in C, you can just cut off the top bits with &255 every time
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00:48:04 <FreeFull> Bike: I'm not implementing a bytebeat interpreter in brainfuck
00:48:08 <zzo38> In order to make it allow to do by a single command, and using the C format, might be possible to make a plugin with such feature.
00:48:13 <FreeFull> Hell, I'm not implementing anything in brainfuck. Screw that
00:48:31 <MDude> That's kind of the idea, though.
00:48:44 <kmc> would be nice to implement some of these using discrete logic chips
00:48:48 <ais523> BF is pretty easy to write in compared to many esolangs
00:48:53 <zzo38> Csound plugins can be written in a few different programming languages: C, C++, Lua, Python, and Csound.
00:49:31 <FreeFull> ais523: I'm not going to write in those either
00:50:19 <ais523> this seems like a decided lack of ambition for this channel
00:50:23 <ais523> I wrote a BF interp in Unlambda once
00:50:26 * FreeFull checks out stuff people have done with bytebeat while he wasn't looking at it
00:51:12 <zzo38> FreeFull: I have a Csound plugin license under LGPL, so if you have a C code compatible with that, I will make it into an additional command in this Csound plugin.
00:53:01 <FreeFull> Probably wouldn't be compatible
00:54:47 <zzo38> What programming language did you write a rpn parser?
00:56:14 <FreeFull> But it's basically one big switch statement with some strcmp mixed in
00:56:33 <zzo38> If I see what you have then I might be able to work it.
00:56:45 <FreeFull> I don't think it would be worth it
00:58:34 * kmc watches some demoscene videos
00:59:06 <kmc> i was going to say that the complexity of a demo grows exponentially with size, but it's not so much "exponential" as "faster than any computable function"
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01:01:30 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> i was going to say that the complexity of a demo grows exponentially with size, but it's not so much "exponential" as "faster than any computable function"
01:01:33 <HackEgo> 867) <kmc> i was going to say that the complexity of a demo grows exponentially with size, but it's not so much "exponential" as "faster than any computable function"
01:01:38 <Phantom_Hoover> 'faster than any computable' function is one of those things that still completely blows my mind
01:01:58 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: busy beaver grows like that, doesn't it?
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01:05:48 <MDude> Hmm, wait a minute. I was going to say something about a function using !x, but apparently various calculator thigns aren't parsing ! like I thought they would.
01:05:50 <Bike> the ones that are weird for me are the ones that grow slower than any computable (monotonically increasing) function
01:06:43 <Bike> factorial is slow compared to ackermann, which is slow compared to bb/goodstein/whatever.
01:06:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, hmm, like... 1-1/f(x) where f is supercomputable?
01:07:54 <elliott> Bike: wow, I hadn't realised such a function could exist until now
01:08:05 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the one I know is the function creeping up on kolmogorov complexity from underneath (f(x) = min{C(a) such that a >= x})
01:08:08 <MDude> Yeah, you what about factorialing a number a number of times equal to its factorial?
01:08:14 <elliott> I'm going full constructivist and forgetting anything uncomputable even exists
01:08:22 <Bike> elliott: was my reaction as well
01:08:25 <elliott> MDude: that's obviously computable
01:08:42 <ais523> it's primitive recursive, in fact
01:08:48 <elliott> j = n; for (i = 0; i < fact(n); i++) j = fact(j);
01:08:54 <ais523> do non-primitive-recursive total functions exist?
01:09:04 <ais523> I mean, that can't be emulated by primitive recursive
01:09:16 <Bike> that is the point of ackermann, isn't it...?
01:09:17 <elliott> ais523: whether a function is primitive recursive is decidable
01:09:20 <elliott> whether a function is total is not
01:09:32 <MDude> I was htinking mroe of comparing it to demo complexity, but I suppose that was already considered.
01:09:52 <elliott> ais523: if you could write all total functions primitive recursively, you wouldn't have any need for Turing-complete languages
01:10:01 <elliott> because you'd have a language you can check, and that represents all programs that matter
01:10:05 <Bike> and we'd live in a bugless fairy utopia!
01:10:23 <GreyKnight> yep, Ackermann is total but not primitive recursive
01:10:44 <ais523> Anarchy is going to be total except where marked otherwise
01:10:54 <ais523> or more specifically, the compiler will try to prove totality and give a warning if it can't
01:11:12 <ais523> basically, because most algos you'd actually want to write in it are easy to prove total
01:11:21 <ais523> GreyKnight: warning, that would be a stupid way to make a language sub-TC
01:12:07 <GreyKnight> I've been writing C++ all week so I was starting to believe pointlessly exasperating errors were a normal language feature, my bad
01:12:51 <elliott> ais523: so it's going to be partial
01:12:55 <elliott> and you have a compiler that gives warnings
01:13:03 <elliott> your stated property has zip to do with the language
01:13:28 <ais523> well, unless you use -Werror
01:13:48 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: They are to C++, if you use templates
01:15:41 <kmc> yeah C++ error messages are usually pretty awful
01:15:44 <kmc> depends a lot on compiler though
01:15:51 <kmc> try clang++ and recent GCC
01:16:39 <elliott> i've started writing those bytebeat things again
01:17:00 <GreyKnight> it's a nigh-unmaintainable mess that only compiles in Borland 4, which is from like 1990+something
01:17:13 <MDude> Make a bytebeat thing, fungot.
01:17:14 <fungot> MDude: a moot court t._v. laughter unless you had cable or something about religious or not but i i just
01:17:20 <elliott> randomly generating them would be cool
01:17:28 <elliott> and filtering out the ones that generate really boring stuff like silence or just one tone or whatever
01:17:31 <Bike> ._v., is that an arrowhead striking from above
01:17:37 <elliott> ( http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/ )
01:17:41 <kmc> C++ sucked extra hard back in 1990+something
01:17:50 <elliott> hah replacing that first t with sin(t) makes it significantly more dissonant
01:18:32 <kmc> i'm surprised that bytebeat hasn't shown up in ioccc more
01:18:42 <MDude> I tried just shoving randomly generated characters into IBNIZ, but it dind't tend to do much interesting.
01:19:16 <elliott> the js/c stuff is more accessible though
01:19:29 <Bike> ioccc entry: an implementation of RV 425 without using multiplication
01:19:35 <FreeFull> There is no byte sequence that is an invalid ibniz program :D
01:20:08 <MDude> There's stuff that tries to pull from an empty stack, though.
01:20:20 <MDude> Or push on too much and do nothing with it.
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01:21:58 <elliott> (t*(t>>8))*!((t>>2)%1) produces more manic but visually pleasing results
01:22:19 <kmc> `quote 708
01:22:20 <HackEgo> 708) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people
01:22:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31198
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01:24:01 <hagb4rd> interesting.. has anybody here prorgrammed with chromes webKitAudioContext?
01:24:20 <MDude> (t*(t>>7))*!((t>>2)%8) on left channel and (t*(t>>8))*!((t>>2)%7) on right
01:24:26 <GreyKnight> ∃ fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
01:24:26 <fungot> GreyKnight: oh my gosh that gives you noise goose bumps laughter laughter sigh that's cool noise
01:24:32 -!- GreyKnight has set topic: ∃ fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:25:29 <elliott> MDude: that but with (sin(t)*(t>>8))*!((t>>2)%7) on the right is cool too
01:26:08 <ais523> elliott: btw, we recently discovered that all the game-semantic models of concurrent Algol were broken
01:26:15 <ais523> not in the sense of being /wrong/
01:26:21 <ais523> just in the sense of not modelling anything useful
01:26:27 <ais523> they need a psychic scheduler to work correctly
01:27:07 <ais523> the only implementation I could think of was to, every time multiple threads were trying to perform actions simultaneously, fork off a new scheduler for each possible method of rearranging the order in which the threads act
01:27:18 <ais523> with each scheduler having its own copies of the threads
01:27:42 <ais523> needless to say, this is not very practical
01:27:45 <Lumpio-> 200*sin(t*"herp derp durrrr".charCodeAt((t/1000)%16))
01:27:56 <ais523> we're trying to do a hard-realtime total concurrent version of Algol
01:28:04 <hagb4rd> havascript the new punkrock: http://bit.ly/WGzVHo
01:28:04 <ais523> this involves proving the absence of deadlocks, which is awkward
01:29:47 <ais523> I have a new plan for the finite case (i.e. no flow control at all)
01:29:53 <ais523> but it doesn't generalise
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01:31:05 <ais523> err, is that an integer %?
01:31:30 <ais523> except when it's 1 or -1, which requires luck with floating point rounding
01:31:36 <ais523> or, well, 1 or -1 times t>>4
01:31:47 <elliott> http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/ to see what it actually results in
01:32:05 <ais523> if it's a floating %, it's a no-op
01:32:10 <HackEgo> 726) <ais523> bleh, why doesn't tab-complete work in mkdir for the name of the new directory
01:32:12 <ais523> unless it has weird behviour on negative numbers
01:32:32 <elliott> IIRC it behaved differently
01:32:40 <elliott> I think it might be doing something weird to the floating point rep
01:33:48 <HackEgo> 694) <Vorpal> <ais523> northern ireland is quite a way to drag someone from scotland <-- not really. I just checked in google earth <ais523> Vorpal: but dragging people across water's a bit tricky
01:33:53 <ais523> GreyKnight: I can't remember
01:33:57 <ais523> but it probably wasn't interesting, given the quote
01:34:01 <MDude> THis doens't sound that nice, but made some neat shapes: (t>>4)/(t>>5)*t%(Math.sqrt(t)*10)
01:34:13 <elliott> haha, try (t>>3)*cos(t) in 44.1 khz
01:35:22 <kmc> all numbers in JS are floats
01:35:24 <Lumpio-> And I don't appreciate "who the hell knows", JS is a beautiful language
01:35:26 <kmc> it is cool
01:35:37 <Lumpio-> kmc: Then again it also has bitwise ops, which operate on integers :P
01:35:47 <kmc> does it truncate them first?
01:35:52 <elliott> Lumpio-: if you think JS is a beautiful language then I have no idea what to say to you
01:36:05 <elliott> Gregor: is JS a beautiful language
01:36:10 <Lumpio-> ais523: What's wrong with it?
01:36:18 <ais523> apparently the designers of JS only implemented those scoping rules because they were fast to implement and they were in a hurry to get it out
01:36:26 <kmc> global by default is bad
01:36:32 <ais523> and what's wrong with it is that I had to add a bunch of extra lambdas to my code for no obvious reason
01:36:34 <Lumpio-> >doesn't even "use strict"
01:36:47 <kmc> but if you use 'var' consistently then you do have lexical scoping which is more than a lot of languages manage
01:36:49 <ais523> or, more precisely, that there's no such thing as block-local variables
01:36:54 <elliott> >annoys everyone around them by their really fucking stupid method of communication
01:37:01 <Lumpio-> You're lucky it didn't look >like this
01:37:04 <elliott> >turns every statement into condescending nonsense
01:37:04 <ais523> -also I'll start talking like this if you keep prefixing lines with greater-than signs-
01:37:12 <ais523> -kmc: you don't, you have function scoping-
01:37:21 <kmc> you have lexical scoping of functions
01:37:26 <Lumpio-> kmc: "use strict" turns what would make a "global by default" into an error
01:37:26 <ais523> -yeah but they don't nest-
01:37:29 <kmc> functions do
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01:37:44 <ais523> -yes but that means you need to add a bunch of junk lambdas to your code for no good reason-
01:37:45 <Lumpio-> If you want {} scoping, use let
01:37:51 <ais523> -and if you don't you just get hard-to-debug errors-
01:37:52 <elliott> "JS is such a cool language that you have to arbitrarily forbid large swathes of its semantics for it to not have horrific problems"
01:38:00 <kmc> ais523: yeah
01:38:03 <kmc> it's not great
01:38:10 <kmc> but it's better than a lot of languages manage
01:38:15 <kmc> depressingly enough
01:38:18 <ais523> most languages do not screw up lexical scoping
01:38:19 <Lumpio-> ais523: So you're essentially saying you don't understand lambdas
01:38:25 <Lumpio-> Hope you never find a Lisp derivative
01:38:28 <ais523> Lumpio-: I do understand lambdas
01:38:38 <kmc> Lumpio-: "for" and "if" and such don't create scopes in JS
01:38:39 <ais523> I'm not sure /you/ do, though
01:38:41 <elliott> you are a condescending idiot who assumes the worst in people apparently
01:38:45 <Lumpio-> kmc: They do if you stick to "let"
01:38:49 <elliott> with a major dunning-kruger complex
01:38:54 <kmc> i don't consider this a big deal but yeah basically what elliott said
01:39:14 <kmc> is "let" widely supported?
01:39:27 <elliott> i think the major browsers support it
01:39:52 <GreyKnight> ais523: BTW is your Algol thing above the same project as:
01:39:57 <HackEgo> 244) <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult
01:40:12 <elliott> ais523 has been compiling idealised concurrent algol to hardware since the beginning of time
01:40:13 <kmc> i wouldn't call JS beautiful, but it is better than one would expect from the historical story of how it came about
01:40:22 <elliott> and is currently anticipated to never finish performing this task
01:40:31 <ais523> elliott: nah, we can manage that already
01:40:34 <ais523> we're trying to optimize it now
01:40:54 <elliott> kmc: I'd expect better of a language whose origin story is "guy has to make a sort-of-C-like language in N days, tries to make it as much like Scheme" as possible
01:41:03 <elliott> since generally someone who knows Scheme wouldn't get things like basic scoping wrong
01:41:15 <ais523> elliott: he knew it was wrong at the time
01:41:20 <ais523> just he was too rushed to do it properly
01:41:25 <MDude> He tries to scheme as much as possible, got it.
01:41:32 <kmc> i don't think it's that broken
01:41:49 <kmc> but whatever
01:41:56 <ais523> he understood lexical scope well enough to write lexical scope that didn't nest, rather than dynamic scope that did (which is just about as easy)
01:41:58 <elliott> MDude: turning your example into (t>>4)/(t>>5)*t%(Math.sqrt(t)*100) gives fun results at the start
01:42:02 <kmc> it does nest
01:42:03 <GreyKnight> I found a comment to that^ effect in some code the other week. It'd been there for about 4 or 5 years
01:42:14 <kmc> it's just that not all of the constructs you have arbitrarily decided look like they should create scopes do
01:42:48 <ais523> well if you're using C-like braces for grouping, you expect them to scope in a C-like way
01:42:55 <elliott> tbh restricting scopes to just functions is pretty ridiculous
01:43:08 <elliott> especially since all these constructs look visually identical but do not create new scopes
01:43:19 <kmc> anyway it's an enormous stroke of luck that javascript was designed by someone who at all understood scoping, or basic functional programming
01:43:26 <Lumpio-> Didn't old C pretty much only do function scoping
01:43:31 <Lumpio-> "All variables at the top or else"
01:43:32 <GreyKnight> the problem with curly-brace languages is how they all look the same but actually aren't :-)
01:43:38 <kmc> more often than not, these languages end up desigend by people with an irrational fear and misunderstanding of very simple things
01:43:41 <kmc> see: python
01:43:59 <kmc> GreyKnight: what, you're saying there's more to a programming language than what kind of punctuation it uses?!?!?
01:44:21 <HackEgo> 158) <ais523> syntax is the least important part of a programming language <ais523> other than Python \ 422) <elliott_> Vorpal: Won't be slower than Python ;-) <Vorpal> elliott_, yeah but that is like saying a T-Ford going down a hill won't be slower than a bicycle uphill on a bumpy road :P
01:44:31 <ais523> kmc: 158 is what I was looking for
01:44:38 <elliott> MDude: and ((t-10)>>4)/(t>>5)*t%(Math.sqrt(t>>10)*1000) sounds kind of cool
01:44:40 <GreyKnight> the `quote search should check synonyms obviously
01:45:06 <zzo38> No, I think it shouldn't check synonyms.
01:45:08 <kmc> i only have one major complaint with Python syntax, but it's a pretty big one
01:45:26 <ais523> kmc: I lost my first Python program because the whitespace got mangled somehow
01:45:32 <elliott> hmm, if you have t progressing from 0 to infinity, you can get 0, 1, 2, 3, 0, 1, 2, 3 by t%4
01:45:41 <elliott> is there a nice short way of getting 0, 1, 2, 3, 2, 1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 2, 1, 0, ...
01:45:48 <hagb4rd> (t>>3)*cos(t) <-- that was the best one for now.. just need to get it less noissy
01:45:51 <elliott> 0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1 is fine too
01:45:58 <GreyKnight> zzo38: BTW you might like this: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.network.gopher.general/4481
01:47:00 <MDude> Since it's obviously the square root that slows things donw, I tried (t>>4)/(t>>5)*t%(Math.sqrt(t%100000)*100)
01:47:13 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Domain name I have is OK
01:47:31 <MDude> And also messed around with the size of the number after t%.
01:47:45 <shachaf> The broken thing about JavaScript's scoping is that {} doesn't create a new scope?
01:48:00 <kmc> that is the claim, yes
01:48:23 <elliott> MDude: haha when that exploded half-way through was a nice surprise
01:48:51 <Bike> hm, triangle wave with arithmetic, i dunno...
01:48:52 <GreyKnight> but zzo38.gopher would be a cool alternate name B-)
01:49:11 <elliott> it's not zzo38, it's his computer
01:49:14 <zzo38> I also dislike the way they make up TLDs like that.
01:49:35 <zzo38> And I have services on at least two other protocols, and may add more additionally, later on, too.
01:50:36 <Bike> Oh, hm, maybe you could do that by fucking with two's complement.
01:50:41 <GreyKnight> well, ICANN are making up TLDs as well now, so. Except selling them for £bignum
01:50:52 <Bike> no... no i don't think that would work
01:51:14 <zzo38> I don't like ICANN's making up TLDs either
01:51:29 <GreyKnight> maybe we should just scrap DNS and start over :-/
01:51:58 <Bike> wait for ipv6 to be adopted, give everyone and their mother a stable ip, all problems solved forever
01:51:59 <kmc> shachaf: my laptop left Japan this morning (boston time) and is supposed to arrive at my door tomorrow
01:52:01 <zzo38> But I have DHCP so maybe the address might change
01:52:21 <GreyKnight> e.g. the company Johnson & Johnson put in to own ".baby". Even if we take as read that this TLD should exist, why should they be the ones to own it?
01:52:21 <hagb4rd> (t>>6|t|t>>(t>>16))*10+((t>>11)&7)
01:52:43 <elliott> well you might as ask why ICANN should own everything
01:52:48 <shachaf> (Is your door in Boston? Some people have lots of doors.)
01:52:48 <elliott> and the answer is because they were there first
01:52:53 <elliott> just like Johnson & Johnson
01:52:55 <kmc> shachaf: timezoneconverter.com has the worst UI
01:53:04 <kmc> i wonder if the top google hit for "time zone converter" will ever be not that :(
01:53:08 <elliott> kmc: google "time in $timezone"
01:53:22 <elliott> "3 am utc in pdt" etc. works iirc
01:53:22 <kmc> useful but i do want to convert times that aren't now
01:53:27 <shachaf> elliott: That only works for right now.
01:53:39 <elliott> ok it doesn't actually work
01:54:03 <elliott> wait wasn't this in one of the videos, it sounds familiar
01:54:21 <kmc> it left Anchorage, Alaska like an hour ago
01:54:21 <elliott> kmc: wolframalpha can do it anyway
01:55:28 <shachaf> elliott: What about 0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0,1
01:55:32 <zzo38> It is why I wanted to make up the new international network, perhaps called "HyperNet" which is 100% decentralized, and gets rid of stupid stuff like HTML/CSS/JavaScript/HTTP/PDF/StupidStuff/etc/etc/etc/etc too.
01:55:49 <ais523> zzo38: what would it use instead?
01:55:53 <elliott> zzo38: but StupidStuff is my favourite technology
01:56:10 <shachaf> abs(((x + 3) % 7 - 3) % 4)?
01:56:15 <shachaf> Hmm, that's too complicated.
01:56:16 <zzo38> ais523: Just plain ASCII text (or, if not English, using their encoding)
01:56:57 <ais523> that way you wouldn't have to guess the encoding
01:57:53 <zzo38> ais523: Well, you can use UTF-8 if you want, or whatever
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01:57:54 <elliott> shachaf: that sort of works but is a bit inconvenient
01:58:01 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
01:59:02 <ais523> elliott: abs(x % 8 - 3) almost works
01:59:13 <ais523> that's 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 0…
01:59:36 <zzo38> It is probably much slower than internet, although, this also is advantage which allows working over nearly any physical systems, and prevents the government or whoever from spying on you or deleting things, and also with a lot more security must be included in the system, to allow updates similar to wiki or in other ways.
01:59:39 <ais523> or abs(x % 6 - 2) is 2 1 0 1 2 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 2 1 0…
01:59:58 <shachaf> Not sure what the point of the % 4 was.
02:00:08 <elliott> ais523: that's good enough
02:00:26 <ais523> yes, it's not what you asked for, but I thought it might be what you wanted
02:00:53 <shachaf> I think ais523 has inside information.
02:01:09 <zzo38> The standard encoding is considered ASCII rather than UTF-8, not only because Unicode is too complicated, but also to avoid homograph attacks and stuff like that. Nevertheless, you can use whatever encoding you need for the file you are posting.
02:01:15 <shachaf> Also ais523's thing is obviously a derivative work.
02:01:22 <elliott> ais523: hmm, where is the 8 even coming from?
02:01:53 <elliott> so it is abs(x % k*2 - (k-1))
02:02:04 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> (abs (x % 6 - 2)))
02:02:05 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `R.%' (imported from Data.Ratio)
02:02:14 <kmc> shachaf: now I'm trying to figure out which UPS flights my package will be on
02:02:15 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> (abs (x `mod` 6 - 2)))
02:02:16 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (a0 -> [a0]))
02:02:18 <kmc> looking at flightaware.com
02:02:36 <FreeFull> > iterate (\x -> (abs (x `mod` 6 - 2))) 0
02:02:37 <lambdabot> [0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,2,0,...
02:02:38 <shachaf> kmc: Doesn't a laptop have a built-in UPS?
02:03:12 <FreeFull> > map (\x -> (abs (x `mod` 6 - 2))) [0..]
02:03:14 <lambdabot> [2,1,0,1,2,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,2,...
02:03:34 <FreeFull> > map (\x -> (abs (x `mod` 12 - 4))) [0..]
02:03:36 <lambdabot> [4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,4,...
02:03:48 <FreeFull> > map (\x -> (abs (x `mod` 12 - 2))) [0..]
02:03:50 <lambdabot> [2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,2,...
02:04:07 <FreeFull> > map (\x -> (abs (x `mod` 12 - 5))) [0..]
02:04:08 <lambdabot> [5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,5,...
02:04:18 <zzo38> In order to make decentralized 100% one of my ideas is that duplicate addresses are allowed, addresses can change as often as you want, needs no relevance to physical locations or hardware, and can be considered as coordinates in an infinite-dimensional space.
02:05:37 <hagb4rd> (t>>8|t|t>>(t>>6))*6+((t>>4)&7)
02:06:02 <Bike> GreyKnight: tbh i don't think central addressing is the way forward for worldeating nanobots
02:06:04 <kmc> zzo38: and how will routing work?
02:06:40 <MDude> I was considering making a system where adresses are actually relative, though it was more an alternative to usb than to the internet.
02:07:03 <zzo38> kmc: There is no routing; that is why it is so slow.
02:07:23 <kmc> you are more honest than most protocol designers
02:07:46 <ais523> this sounds like a pretty esoteric network
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02:08:08 <ais523> do you require that each address has only finitely many nonzero coordinates?
02:08:09 <kmc> do the packets just kind of meander around until they arrive at their destination by happenstance?
02:08:18 <MDude> With relative addressing, how it works is that for each routher/switch whatever, you ahve a part of the adress that says what physical connection to forward the signal through.
02:08:29 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, it would have to; but there is no limit.
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02:08:40 <MDude> To like for one that has three connections you jsut have a bit that says to turn either right or left.
02:09:00 <GreyKnight> <ais523> this sounds like a pretty esoteric network <-- "perfect"
02:09:16 <HackEgo> zzo38: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:09:17 <ais523> MDude: didn't telephones used to work like that?
02:09:22 <ais523> each digit in the number was parsed by a different switch
02:09:33 <ais523> and told it which other switch to connect to
02:09:39 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/ and deployment//' wisdom/welcome
02:09:43 <Bike> i thought telephones used to work by asking an operator to figure it out for you
02:09:50 <ais523> Bike: that was even earlier
02:09:59 <zzo38> kmc: Kind of. You can know which address is closer to the target. Also, you might not need a target if you have an old copy of the data (which anyone might archive, even if they don't know what it is), and if you have the key you can decrypt it. So, it can be meant for everyone with the key, rather than only one target.
02:10:02 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:10:16 <MDude> Though I would try to add packets to that, instead of it needing to be a continuous circuit.
02:10:18 <kmc> zzo38: do you know about distributed hash tables
02:10:19 <Bike> also hm, this seems a bit like how i think freenode works
02:10:25 <shachaf> GreyKnight: Thanks, but it's just not the same.
02:10:31 <zzo38> And new versions can override old versions, sort of like git or other source code repositories, or similar to a wiki a bit
02:10:43 <kmc> Bike: freenet, you mean? or something else?
02:10:46 <GreyKnight> shachaf: yours didn't have deployment for some reason
02:10:50 <Bike> um. yes. DHTs and all.
02:12:08 <shachaf> kmc: You should make a distributed content-addressed thing that everyone uses for everything.
02:12:20 <ais523> hey, have we ever actually deployed an esolang?
02:12:21 <kmc> hm not only could you implement bytebeat music in discrete logic, you could build a board with the necessary components and have a plugboard to change the way it connects together
02:12:30 <ais523> I mean, apart from me talking to the Debian packagers about INTERCAL?
02:12:45 <MDude> What is "deployed"?
02:13:59 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:14:42 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:15:01 <MDude> 'welcome everybody
02:15:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
02:15:20 <MDude> `welcome everybody
02:15:21 <HackEgo> everybody: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:15:34 <MDude> Good, that covers all the bases ever.
02:16:03 <MDude> Oh, and Hackego found out he can't find nothing.
02:16:21 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I like the idea and you should place a more detailed writeup somewhere
02:16:47 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `': No such file or directory
02:17:17 <GreyKnight> Use nothing, not something. If you use something you might get nothing. Anything, really.
02:17:19 <ais523> MDude: deployment's basically shipping something out to as many people as possible, in the computing world
02:17:37 <ais523> the other common usage of the term is to do with deploying troops
02:17:39 <hagb4rd> in fact an unsolved problem is how nothing can weight so little
02:17:42 <ais523> Bike: weird error message, though
02:17:56 <Bike> I got the same locally. I wonder what the hell it means.
02:18:25 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Yes I should. Note that everything is encrypted, and that you can use QR codes or ham radio or disks or even over internet whatever; therefore it is unblockable.
02:18:53 <Bike> You should organize a counter-strike game to be played over ham radio.
02:19:16 <GreyKnight> solid steel shell around ALL the things
02:19:38 <Bike> just hit the shells rhythmically to encode vibrations
02:20:43 <MDude> Use trained elephants, they communicate subsonically.
02:21:09 <ais523> hmm… wouldn't most radios filter out the encodings of subsonic transmissions?
02:21:42 <ais523> it's definitely possible to transmit them, just there isn't normally any point and it just adds to noise floor
02:21:51 <ais523> also typical speakers can't produce them anyway
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02:23:47 <MDude> Also you can't hear it anyway, by definition.
02:24:08 <MDude> That's why you receive it with naother trained elephant.
02:25:01 <hagb4rd> unless you're not using amplitude or frequence modulation..how is that infrasonic manipulation realized anyway?
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02:25:49 <MDude> However the elephants normally make them?
02:26:03 <MDude> That's why you use them instead of having an infrasonic machine.
02:26:10 <MDude> They already know how to do it.
02:26:15 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
02:26:45 <GreyKnight> Today on #esoteric: elephant-based security exploits
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02:32:13 <GreyKnight> <ais523> I originally installed [a referer forger] for esolangs.org after that hilarious incident with the spam filter
02:33:43 <GreyKnight> <elliott> Having hundreds of Chrome tabs is... not very sustainable. <-- I occasionally use FF's "bookmark all" to just splat all of them into a bookmark directory, then close all the things
02:33:48 <ais523> GreyKnight: basically graue used to spam-filter things by regexing against the entire HTTP request
02:33:56 <ais523> at least, that's what we /think/ was happening
02:34:05 <ais523> someone made a spam page with a spam link in its URL, somehow
02:34:17 <ais523> and all attempts to edit it were failing because the spam link was part of the referer
02:34:43 <ais523> we figured it out eventually
02:34:49 <ais523> after we couldn't even get to the main page from the spam page
02:35:10 <Bike> now i want to try making pages named after spam websites all over wikia.
02:35:22 <ais523> Bike: wikia probably doesn't use graue's filter
02:35:30 <ais523> among the other things it filtered were <div and <span
02:35:48 <ais523> if you find any old pages on esowiki, they sometimes use bizarre workarounds to this
02:35:49 <MDude> whatyouneedwhenyouneedit.wikia.com
02:35:49 <GreyKnight> `addquote <elliott> Deewiant: um???? You've forgotten axiom 1 of everything: everything sucks
02:35:53 <HackEgo> 868) <elliott> Deewiant: um???? You've forgotten axiom 1 of everything: everything sucks
02:36:09 <GreyKnight> elliott is either a grumpy old man or a 20-year-old
02:36:31 <Bike> or he's just been spending too long using web browsers
02:36:35 <GreyKnight> shachaf do you know what IMO stands for
02:37:00 <MDude> International Market Object
02:37:07 <ais523> GreyKnight: I don't think he's 20 yet, but argumably he's a grumpy old man either
02:37:25 <elliott> you are a wordsmitharttist
02:37:30 <ais523> elliott: I actually caught both typos in that sentence but decided they were too good to remove
02:38:00 <elliott> ais523: btw it wasn't Graue's fault
02:38:03 <elliott> it was some dumb host thing
02:38:12 <ais523> it was Graue's webhost
02:38:15 <ais523> rather than Graue himself
02:38:21 <kmc> what's a graue and am i likely to be eaten by it
02:38:24 <elliott> this is why me ruling everything is better
02:38:45 <ais523> kmc: he runs esoteric.voxelperfect.net
02:38:52 <ais523> it also used to host the wiki
02:39:06 <ais523> the Alan Dipert added esolangs.org as a redirect to it
02:39:12 <ais523> and now elliott owns both esolangs.org and the wiki
02:39:27 <kmc> mmm chorizo fried rice
02:40:23 <sgeo> If I want working Factor I'm going to need to compile it myself aren't I
02:41:07 <Bike> what the hell are you doing sgeo, it's just a download
02:41:48 <sgeo> Bike, using a version of Linux with a too old something or other for the binary
02:42:15 <sgeo> ./factor: /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.15' not found (required by ./factor)
02:42:44 <elliott> ais523: it's "THE ALAN DIPERT", btw
02:42:52 <elliott> and I don't own esolangs.org
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02:43:09 <sgeo> Also, related to Factor but unrelated to my issues: Bike: It just occurred to me today that you could put quotations in the values for throw-restart and then call after that
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02:43:23 <ais523> I think it's funier if you just add the pronoun
02:43:24 <shachaf> Is Factor the new Clojure, sgeo?
02:43:28 <sgeo> shachaf, maybe
02:43:42 <sgeo> Except the lack of a community scares me
02:43:44 <Bike> sounds inconvenient
02:43:55 <ais523> shachaf: how long will it be before there's a programming language equivalent of "black is the new black"?
02:44:08 <Bike> java is the new c++, I think i've heard before
02:44:14 <sgeo> Although the relative lack of libraries scares me
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02:44:22 <sgeo> Although it does come with plenty of cool stuff
02:44:57 <ais523> Bike: you have to be able to put the same name on both sides
02:45:04 <MDude> Wait, a language with a lack of community?
02:45:11 <Bike> perl is the new perl? i dunno
02:45:12 <ais523> in order to do this, "X is the new Y" has to become a meme, with variable X and fixed Y
02:45:15 <kmc> shit is the new shit
02:45:17 <ais523> or vice versa, but that's less likely
02:45:22 * MDude immediatly starts using it.
02:45:40 <Bike> you can't force a snowclone.
02:45:41 <ais523> MDude: lots of esolangs have no community, unless you count this one
02:45:48 <ais523> some have no community even if you count this one
02:45:52 <kmc> a language for misanthropes you say! sign me up!!!
02:45:57 <shachaf> ais523: The thing that's going to be fixed here is new, not Y.
02:45:59 <ais523> you won't find anyone in here willing to program in ESME, for instance
02:45:59 <sgeo> MDude, there's a Factor community, but it's ... small
02:46:11 <Bike> @google esolang esme
02:46:13 <ais523> shachaf: gah, now I'm trying to calculate fix new in my head
02:46:15 <ais523> but new has the wrong type
02:46:27 <ais523> oh, Esme, sorry, not ESME
02:46:42 <hagb4rd> eliott: http://wurstcaptures.untergrund.net/music/?oneliner=t*5%26(t%3E%3E7)%7Ct*3%26(t*2%3E%3E10)&oneliner2=&t0=0&tmod=0&duration=30&separation=100&rate=8000
02:46:44 <kmc> Category:Shameful
02:46:49 <Bike> is this a joke?
02:46:58 <Bike> oh sorry, a "lol"
02:47:02 <ais523> Bike: read the talk page too, if you like
02:47:06 <ais523> we're… not entirely sure
02:47:09 <kmc> Bike: lulz epic fail
02:47:14 <ais523> the most charitable explanation is, we think it's performance art
02:47:16 * kmc jumps off nearest bridge
02:47:27 <MDude> When I first saw it, I was expecting it to be "esme, Mario!"
02:47:36 <Bike> user:zzo38, you are the wind beneath my wings
02:47:40 <kmc> reminds me of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
02:47:42 <ais523> it fits in quite well as performance art
02:47:42 <MDude> But I guess that would be Eseme.
02:47:51 <elliott> kmc: that is oklopol's best language imo
02:47:55 <ais523> even if it doesn't fit in well as anything else
02:47:58 <Bike> kmc: beautiful
02:48:14 <ais523> kmc: I think I started the conversation that lead to that being invented
02:48:55 <ais523> the idea was to create a language as unlike brainfuck as possible
02:49:24 <kmc> oh, i kind of figured it was meant to evoke an incredibly complicated way of arriving at a sequence of instructions drawn from 8 possibilities
02:49:53 <ais523> making it a BF derivative would defeat the entire point
02:50:06 <kmc> also are there any web frameworks yet for Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
02:50:25 <kmc> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download on Rails
02:50:30 <Bike> I thought the point was satire by making the "brainfuck in a weird encoding" thing seem ridiculous.
02:50:38 <ais523> cpressey is good at naming languages creatively
02:50:48 <kmc> zzo38 is a master of playing it straight
02:51:07 <ais523> I named a language the sound that's written in IPA as /ˈæmbiːɛf/ in homage to the way he names things
02:51:16 <shachaf> Please don't encourage trolls.
02:51:39 <kmc> shachaf: do you know what TikZ stands for?
02:51:51 <ais523> shachaf: also Y fixes its argument, it's not like you can give it to things as an argument and it fixes them
02:51:53 <shachaf> kmc: Not off-hand -- should I?
02:51:55 <kmc> "TikZ ist kein Zeichenprogramm"
02:52:31 <elliott> @remember keb solike,.,.,. ,I wana know.,,., with this HASKOR junk,..,., do like functions AUTOMATICALLY get called 4.41 times per second? is that called in MAIN? and where do exicutibles get paused on the chip? PM PLZ
02:52:38 <elliott> Good thing this is #esoteric and not #haskell.
02:53:19 <kmc> @photontorpedo
02:53:46 <shachaf> @forget keb solike,.,.,. ,I wana know.,,., with this HASKOR junk,..,., do like functions AUTOMATICALLY get called 4.41 times per second? is that called in MAIN? and where do exicutibles get paused on the chip? PM PLZ
02:53:48 <kmc> elliott: what because in #haskell now 20 people would be trying to explain in good natured but entirely useless ways that functions are not automatically called 4.41 times per second?
02:53:55 -!- keb has joined.
02:54:19 <keb> solike,.,.,. ,I wana know.,,., with this HASKOR junk,..,., do like functions AUTOMATICALLY get called 4.41 times per second? is that called in MAIN? and where do exicutibles get paused on the chip? PM PLZ
02:54:25 <elliott> good to see this backfired on shachaf
02:54:46 <shachaf> elliott: Well, keb fits right in here.
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02:54:59 <ais523> elliott: how did that work?
02:55:06 <elliott> ais523: I went back in time.
02:55:21 <shachaf> ais523: "X is the new X" means that X is the fixed point of new
02:55:23 <ais523> quoting someone in lambdabot doesn't normally cause them to join a channel
02:55:28 <elliott> shachaf: by the way, if you don't know what the "deployment" in the welcome message is for, you should stop removing it
02:55:35 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/implementation/implementation/' wisdom/welcome
02:55:52 <shachaf> elliott: If you want me to stop removing it, you should tell me what it's for.
02:55:54 <ais523> elliott: that's a no-op, isn't it?
02:56:09 <elliott> `run sed -i 's/implementation/deployment/' wisdom/welcome
02:56:11 <ais523> or is there malicious Unicode in there somewhere?
02:56:17 <elliott> shachaf: I think there are easier ways to get you to stop removing it
02:56:33 <ais523> anyway, I think I've deployed at least two esolangs now
02:56:41 <shachaf> ais523: What does the "deployment" mean in `welcome?
02:56:43 <ais523> so I'm probably beating the rest of you
02:56:46 <ais523> shachaf: it means "deployment"
02:56:50 <ais523> what did you expect it to mean?
02:56:52 <shachaf> ais523: OK, what's it for?
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02:57:39 <ais523> shachaf: have you ever deployed an esolang?
02:57:56 <ais523> if not, you need more welcoming
02:57:58 <elliott> shachaf: you just re-removed it in private yet again. please stop misusing HackEgo.
02:58:01 <lambdabot> *** "deployment" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
02:58:01 <lambdabot> n 1: the distribution of forces in preparation for battle or
02:58:25 <Bike> change it to "implementation, debate, and deployment"
02:58:49 <ais523> elliott: see [[Pahana]], copyvio? non-esoteric?
02:58:57 <ais523> I'd heard of it before the article was written
02:59:20 <ais523> shachaf: why are you edit warring with elliott?
02:59:54 <shachaf> ais523: Why is elliott edit warring with me?
03:00:07 <ais523> to the version it's been for ages
03:00:24 <ais523> when changing something central like `welcome, it helps to have a good reason for the change
03:00:32 <ais523> especially when most other people seem to disagree with you
03:00:35 <shachaf> What's the " and deployment" for?
03:00:39 <ais523> I didn't rearrange Wikipeia's main page on a whim
03:00:41 <shachaf> As far as I can tell only elliott disagrees with me.
03:00:44 <elliott> there is a reason to assume an action I take with HackEgo is not in bad faith, which doesn't apply for you, since all you do with it is interrupt conversations with passive-aggressive `quotespam and delete stuff
03:00:48 <ais523> shachaf: I also disagree with you
03:00:58 <ais523> Gregor: can we ban shachaf from HackEgo yet?
03:01:30 <elliott> shachaf: I don't see why you feel the need to take actions that you think will result in you being kicked/banned from IRC channels/bots/etc.
03:01:37 <elliott> Isn't that what cheater does?
03:01:50 <shachaf> I don't want to be kicked from this channel?
03:01:54 <ais523> yeah, I take a similar view of that as I do to people who like getting thrown out of games for breaking the rules
03:01:58 <ais523> in each case, you want them around
03:02:03 <ais523> `pastlog <shachaf>.*kick
03:02:05 <elliott> shachaf: ...have you forgotten the hundred times you've demanded an op of this channel to kick you
03:02:10 <HackEgo> 2012-10-26.txt:21:30:48: <shachaf> ais523: You should kick me for flooding.
03:02:12 <ais523> `pastlog <shachaf>.*kick
03:02:19 <HackEgo> 2012-04-20.txt:05:42:55: <shachaf> oerjan: Kick me while you're at it!
03:02:20 <ais523> `pastlog <shachaf>.*kick
03:02:27 <HackEgo> 2012-04-14.txt:19:36:30: <shachaf> «shahcahef foiled myy jkoe :'( - eliot hird kick him - eliottt» - elliott
03:02:27 <shachaf> OK, I don't want to be kicked from this channel anymore.
03:02:43 <shachaf> Maybe I did at the time, but there's a good reason to stay in it now.
03:03:05 <elliott> messing with the bot, presumably
03:03:13 <kmc> you have a lot of 'h'es in your name, dude
03:03:21 <Bike> That doesn't seem very pronounceable.
03:03:32 <kmc> i don't know how to pronounce ħ
03:04:00 <kmc> but i can't pronounce שכהף either
03:04:07 <shachaf> That's not how my name is pronounced.
03:04:26 <ais523> at least, apart from the English pronunciation in words like Zoë
03:04:27 <kmc> google has failed me once again
03:05:11 <kmc> ais523: isn't that a normal e, just with a diaeresis to indicate that it's not a dipthong
03:05:16 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
03:05:31 <ais523> `run cat wisdom/welcome
03:05:32 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and implementation! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:05:41 <ais523> `run cat wisdom/welcome
03:05:42 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:05:54 <kmc> `run ls wisdom
03:05:55 <elliott> ais523: btw, you appear to have misremembered most brainfuckest [etc.]'s origins
03:05:56 <HackEgo> ? \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ais523 \ atriq \ augur \ banach-tarski \ boily \ bonvenon \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ england \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finnish \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ freefull \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ gaspacho \ gazpacho \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \
03:05:58 <elliott> 10:41:18: <oklopol> hey duddes how about this language i've been designing the last 4 months where you take brainfuck except well call it brainfuckER and you reverse all the characters, and you have to draw the program in paint? and then there's brainfuckiest where you just say beep boop in a microphone and it's interpreted as a fibonacci code word and then it's multiplied by 7 and then it's interpreted as a brainfuck program except that if you prin
03:06:05 <elliott> that probably got cut off but it doesn't matter
03:06:32 <ais523> kmc: you only copied half the character
03:06:43 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
03:06:45 <kmc> `run ls wisdom | xz -9 | base64
03:06:47 <HackEgo> xz: (stdin): Cannot allocate memory
03:07:25 <HackEgo> ais523 is ais523. This topic may retroactively become more informative if or when Feather is invented.
03:07:31 <ais523> oh right, it's a Feather joke
03:07:38 <ais523> like those didn't get old years ago
03:07:48 <kmc> U+022B: LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS AND MACRON
03:07:51 <kmc> why why why
03:07:54 <ais523> (GreyKnight is allowed to make them for another couple of months because he's new)
03:08:13 <MDude> fungot, please inform me of feather.
03:08:14 <fungot> MDude: a day and i was telling her that that americans are not patient people we like fast cars and we're like oh if we've gotta save money hey wait a minute y- you know how
03:08:18 <ais523> kmc: to stop your ō getting merged with a vowel before it, obviously
03:08:37 <kmc> today i told some people that ASCII is not sufficient for English
03:09:34 <kmc> also: it lacks the currency symbol of many english speaking countries
03:09:51 <kmc> also: if scotland becomes independent then there will be another currency union in the EU besides the Euro
03:09:55 <kmc> that's funny
03:09:59 <ais523> kmc: it doesn't have £ /or/ €
03:10:23 <kmc> elliott: i guess they agreed with me
03:10:29 <MDude> What would their currency be called?
03:10:33 <kmc> and / or decided to stay quite until the crazy person stopped talking
03:10:38 <kmc> MDude: they would keep using the UK pound
03:10:42 <kmc> it is thought
03:10:45 <elliott> IMO they should adopt the yen
03:10:51 <ais523> they'd use the Scottish pound
03:10:51 <elliott> how great a piece of trivia would that be
03:10:55 <elliott> "did you know Scotland uses the yen?"
03:10:56 <kmc> there is already a strange arrangement where scottish pounds are printed by private scottish banks
03:11:02 <ais523> which is IIRC freely interconvertible 1:1 to the UK pound
03:11:12 <kmc> which are then obliged to hold in reserves of bank of england pounds
03:11:16 <ais523> except that many shops won't accept Scottish money because they're worried it'll be fake
03:11:25 <kmc> i'm worried that scotland is fake
03:11:31 <kmc> i mean, i've never been there
03:11:40 <ais523> like, it's easier to forge or something
03:11:45 <ais523> kmc: it's not very far from Hexham
03:11:51 <ais523> where all esolangers live
03:11:54 <ais523> so you should go there
03:11:56 <kmc> elliott: enjoy your 0% inflation forever
03:12:03 <kmc> hint: this is not good
03:12:38 <elliott> btw I have been to Scotland and I can confirm it is fake
03:12:40 <kmc> my economist friends tell me that the japanese central bank has basically been taken over by old people who want their retirement savings to be valuable, and fuck the young people, we'll be dead by then
03:13:26 <kmc> ais523: is it actually easier to counterfeit or are the shops just dumb
03:13:44 <MDude> If there's no Scotland, then where are people calling when they call Scotland Yard?
03:13:54 <ais523> kmc: I suspect it's easier to counterfeit; but more to the point, the shops don't know what it looks like, so they couldn't detect even quite bad fakes
03:14:11 <ais523> there was that famous incident just after the euro was introduced
03:14:13 <kmc> like the walmart that accepted a $1,000,000 bill with george w bush's face on it
03:14:22 <ais523> where some people got a fortune using fake €300 notes
03:14:30 <ais523> (a nonexistent denomination)
03:14:57 <ais523> kmc: there was also that incident recently where someone tried to cash in a trillion dollars of fake US bonds
03:15:03 <ais523> and got caught because they'd misspelt "dollar"
03:15:18 <ais523> I'm not sure if they would have been caught anyway or not
03:15:23 <ais523> I'm guessing yes, but no makes for a funnier story
03:15:26 <kmc> there were some people caught somewhere in europe with like $10b worth of treasury notes in a suitcase
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03:15:46 <ais523> it's pretty crazy either way
03:15:55 <kmc> allegedly counterfeit but the conspiracy theory is that they were real and the US convinced Italy or whoever to destroy them quietly
03:16:44 <kmc> elliott: india is also an english speaking country and their currency symbol isn't in ASCII either
03:16:52 <kmc> but it's also like 3 years old and looks like star wars money
03:17:36 <MDude> Make notes that claim to be for negative amounts of money.
03:17:54 <MDude> Obviously, print it with red ink.
03:18:10 <ais523> kmc: what does star wars money look like?
03:18:23 <ais523> MDude: we've had fun adventures with negative quantities of money in NetHack
03:18:29 <ais523> they're actually practically useful, for their negative weight
03:18:46 <ais523> http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?648
03:19:00 <ais523> (a fun thought experiment for anyone who likes absurd arithmetic)
03:19:38 <Bike> How much did those -2147483604 zorkmids weigh? Usually my character would be dead under the abs of that weight.
03:19:44 <MDude> http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051201231848/starwars/images/1/13/CreditChip.jpg Star Wars Galactic Standard Credit Chip
03:19:47 <kmc> Bike: you're nega-rich!
03:20:10 <Bike> i found suseorc's vault!
03:21:52 <Bike> i guess it's like the question of whether antimatter is subject to antigravity. which is apparently a serious question.
03:23:33 <kmc> fucking gravity, how does it work?
03:23:37 <ais523> Bike: a negative amount
03:23:55 <Bike> ais523: given nethack i'd expect that to crush me into the dungeon ceiling, killing me
03:23:57 <ais523> it's quite useful, you can carry basically unlimited amounts of stuff because the gold counterweighs it
03:34:17 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
03:39:03 <hagb4rd> wtf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCRPUv8V22o&feature=player_detailpage#t=313s
03:41:06 -!- keb has changed nick to kbbb.
03:47:07 <hagb4rd> this guy has also an interesting channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKMrBaXJvMs&list=UURRqeqAXdCC8GgatzHO3VWA&index=1
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04:13:01 <elliott> ais523: oh, re: Pahana, I have no idea
04:13:46 <ais523> it may have been a blog
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05:38:28 <oerjan> why the heck can't google search for a unicode character simply by pasting it :(
05:40:11 <oerjan> <elliott> Deewiant: um???? You've forgotten axiom 1 of everything: everything sucks
05:40:37 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
05:40:47 <oerjan> approximately 20 lines above that character in the logs
05:41:08 <shachaf> oerjan: Are you suggesting that I logread?
05:41:09 * oerjan found it via fileformat.info
05:41:22 <oerjan> oh no, wouldn't _dream_ of it.
05:41:39 <shachaf> oerjan: You could just search unic.txt...
05:41:56 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
05:42:19 <shachaf> Oh, you don't have unic.txt
05:42:25 <shachaf> Here's an old Perl program I used to use:
05:42:29 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/unic.pl.txt
05:42:46 <shachaf> I think it was originally written by Larry Wall.
05:42:50 <oerjan> shachaf, the point here is i want to find it without having to engage my brain.
05:42:54 <shachaf> Mostly because of that comment.
05:43:03 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't have a brain and I still found it...
05:47:20 <ais523> !bfjoust defend9 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/6f8e08560f66/ais523_defend9.bfjoust
05:47:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend9: 16.4
05:48:07 <ais523> was wondering how well my good programs from years ago did nowadays
05:48:11 <ais523> !bfjoust defend7 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/e908fcf1f035/ais523_defend7.bfjoust
05:48:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_defend7: 25.4
05:48:36 <ais523> defend7 is up there, at least
05:48:49 <ais523> defend9 is not going to do well in today's world of stupidly large offset clears
05:49:14 <ais523> haha, it beats /all/ Gregor's programs, apart from the one that's actually jix's
05:49:31 <ais523> and mostly by pretty large margins too
05:49:51 <ais523> also it beats death_to_defence on one polarity, somehow
05:50:25 <ais523> actually that makes no sense
05:50:36 <ais523> htf does one of my old defence programs beat death_to_defence?
05:51:53 <ais523> oh, haha, death_to_defence falls back to a 4-cycle clear :)
05:52:03 <ais523> and defend7's lock works on both 2-cycle clears and 4-cycle clears
05:52:32 <ais523> wow, it wins by just a few cycles
05:53:34 <ais523> it does have a perfect lock
05:53:47 <ais523> just it doesn't look like one because it's not an undetectable perfect lock
05:54:54 <ais523> moral of the story: nested timer clears are hard to get right
05:56:04 <ais523> stupid theory: modern programs spend so long setting up decoys that they can be beaten by a full-tape clear
05:56:58 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >+++>---(6)*5(>(+.)*255+)*21
05:57:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 6.9
05:57:12 <ais523> I'd have been really worried if that won
05:57:27 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >+++>---(6)*5(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
05:57:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 16.0
05:57:33 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >+++>---(>)*5(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
05:57:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 25.3
05:57:47 <ais523> this is, like, the slowest clear loop in existence
05:58:46 <ais523> actually it does pretty badly
05:58:51 <ais523> not sure why it's scoring so well
05:59:05 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >+++>--->++>--(>)*3(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
05:59:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 20.4
05:59:16 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear (>)*8(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
05:59:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 23.4
05:59:29 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >>++(>)*6(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
05:59:31 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 21.4
05:59:37 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
05:59:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 22.7
05:59:43 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
05:59:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 28.9
05:59:56 <ais523> haha, who's using a size-3 offset clear? :)
06:00:12 <ais523> either that or it's just typing coincidence
06:00:47 <ais523> how a program that slow can do that well simply by being 100% immune to decoys
06:00:52 <ais523> it's like a half-speed turtle
06:01:00 <ais523> or, well, an offset turtle that offsets the entire range
06:01:23 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++(>)*7(>[+[--[(+.)*255+>]>]>])*21
06:01:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 28.5
06:01:33 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:01:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 28.9
06:02:43 <ais523> still, that thing making top half of the leaderboard is ridiculous :)
06:03:03 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++(>)*8(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:03:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 26.2
06:03:10 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:03:13 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 28.9
06:03:23 <ais523> hmm, I thought that was a program that might benefit from the elliott sacrifice
06:03:39 <elliott> the elliott is a standard unit of sacrifice measure
06:03:43 <elliott> it's equivalent to 11.4 goats
06:03:46 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++(>)*4++++(>)*3(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:03:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 23.1
06:03:56 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >+++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:03:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 29.3
06:04:03 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:04:05 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 30.8
06:04:09 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >+++++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:04:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 30.8
06:04:17 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:04:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 29.3
06:04:23 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++++(>)*7(>[(+.)*255+>])*21
06:04:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 30.8
06:04:31 <elliott> ais523: you need an optimiser program for this :)
06:04:47 <ais523> but it's not very good for optimizing decoy setups
06:05:16 <ais523> I'm wondering if the strategy even /can/ be tweaked
06:05:26 <ais523> I guess I could use a smaller offset on the turtle
06:05:37 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*64(+.)*127+>])*21
06:05:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 30.4
06:05:52 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*21
06:05:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 33.8
06:06:09 <ais523> I guess it's not an aggressive full tape clear any more though
06:06:13 <ais523> !bfjoust aggressive_full_tape_clear <
06:06:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_aggressive_full_tape_clear: 0.0
06:06:23 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*21
06:06:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 34.0
06:07:47 <elliott> ais523: why can't it optimise decoy setups?
06:07:51 <elliott> it should just be (+)*N, right?
06:08:03 <ais523> it doesn't brute-force, tries to use an evo algo
06:08:16 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191>([(+)*32(+.)*191>])*20](>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:08:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:08:21 <ais523> that should be equivalent
06:08:26 <ais523> apparently I messed up somewhere
06:08:48 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:08:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:08:57 <ais523> oh, just the board settling
06:09:23 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*8(-)*50(>)*8(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:09:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 32.1
06:09:31 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*8(-)*90(>)*8(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:09:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 28.1
06:09:38 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*8(-)*20(>)*8(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:09:41 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 32.9
06:09:47 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*8(>)*8(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:09:50 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:09:54 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*8+(>)*8(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:09:57 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:10:06 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*8(+)*10(>)*8(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:10:09 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:10:12 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*8(+)*20(>)*8(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:10:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 32.5
06:10:38 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*8[(+)*32(+.)*191+>([(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20](<)*6++++++>++++++>------(>)*4(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*20
06:10:40 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 24.6
06:10:50 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*21
06:10:53 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:10:54 <ais523> let's go back to the simple version
06:12:25 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*32(+..)*191+>])*21
06:12:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 31.1
06:12:29 <oerjan> why do you keep offsetting the pure turtle
06:12:43 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*32(++.)*191+>])*21
06:12:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 26.7
06:12:54 <ais523> hmm, both interesting results there
06:13:02 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*21
06:13:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:13:10 <ais523> it's either much faster than programs, or much slower
06:13:25 <ais523> or programs are falling off against it due to it only setting one decoy
06:13:30 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7+(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*21
06:13:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 28.9
06:13:49 <ais523> yeah, that's the difference it makes if you change the decoy setup even slightly
06:13:53 <ais523> thus, the high score is an illusion
06:14:04 <ais523> or else a sign that people should stop relying on ridiculous decoy setups
06:14:10 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*32(+.)*191+>])*21
06:14:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:14:28 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*48(+.)*159+>])*21
06:14:30 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.6
06:14:46 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*40(+.)*175+>])*21
06:14:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.6
06:15:01 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*30(+.)*195+>])*21
06:15:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:15:56 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7>[(+)*64(+.)*127+>](>[(+)*30(+.)*195+>])*20
06:15:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.3
06:16:07 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7>(>[(+)*30(+.)*195+>])*21
06:16:10 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 31.1
06:16:19 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*30(+.)*195+>])*21
06:16:22 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:16:31 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*30(+.)*195+>])*21(++-----)*100000
06:16:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:16:44 <ais523> heh, the "beat vibration programs on length 30" addition has no effect at all
06:17:34 <ais523> !bfjoust very_offset_turtle >++++++(>)*7(>[(+)*30(+.)*195+>])*-1
06:17:37 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_offset_turtle: 33.8
06:17:40 <ais523> I think I prefer the clean version
06:22:42 <ais523> !bfjoust very_slow_offset_turtle >+++>+++>+++>--->---<(-)*65<(+)*65<(+)*65<(+)*65<(-)*65(>)*8(>[(+)*30(+.)*195+>])*-1
06:22:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_slow_offset_turtle: 23.4
06:23:33 <oerjan> you cannot beat vibration, silly
06:24:13 <ais523> !bfjoust very_slow_offset_turtle <
06:24:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_very_slow_offset_turtle: 0.0
06:24:40 <ais523> and yeah, very_offset_turtle doesn't work against defence unless it's lucky
06:24:47 <ais523> it's a turtle, after all
06:26:54 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
06:27:10 <elliott> ais523: i forget, is bf joust still borken
06:27:27 <ais523> it's not as healthy as it was but is recovering
06:27:35 <ais523> I've beaten death_to_defence with at least two defence programs now
06:27:52 <ais523> although there's no fundamental way to beat it, it could be tweaked to beat those at the cost of losing to others
06:27:57 <Bike> "Gregor_furry_furry_leather_discipline_girls.bfjoust" why did i click
06:27:58 <elliott> holy shit space hotel is fucking gigantic
06:28:11 <ais523> Bike: don't worry, it's not porn
06:28:17 <ais523> Gregor just likes weird names like that
06:28:19 <elliott> Bike: ais523 is lying, it's porn
06:28:32 <Bike> other than some kind of strange laughter
06:28:46 <elliott> it means "hope this doesn't help"
06:29:21 <Bike> oh it's 300 K of brainfuck
06:30:01 <Bike> and bondage discipline whatever is ... no
06:30:08 <Bike> god i hope this isn't porn.
06:30:18 <ais523> Bike: watching it may be better than trying to read it: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/
06:30:26 <elliott> why is HackEgo not responding...
06:30:35 <elliott> Bike: (space_hotel is computer-generated)
06:30:44 <elliott> as are some of Gregor's programs; those ones actually contain the program used to generate them
06:30:48 <elliott> well, not generated as in evolved or anything
06:31:00 <ais523> I mostly write mine by hand
06:31:07 <Bike> it's still more than enough brainfuck for one lifetime
06:31:13 <ais523> I still think we should have a BF Joust oneliner competition
06:31:22 <ais523> with ties broken by who spent the most time waiting
06:31:27 <elliott> Bike: it's technically not even brainfuck!
06:31:38 <Bike> yeah what's with the numbers
06:32:22 <elliott> you may find http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust helpful
06:32:49 <elliott> and also http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
06:32:49 <Bike> it's just i mean, corewars is dorky enough, doing it in bf... i don't know if i'm willing to cross that line
06:33:00 <elliott> which is one of the longest articles on the wiki I think
06:33:00 <Bike> that "already in five freenode channels" line
06:33:48 <elliott> ais523: hm, we should feature [[BF Joust strategies]] sometime
06:33:53 <elliott> even if it isn't technically a language
06:33:54 <ais523> elliott: oh, definitely
06:34:12 <ais523> I can't because I wrote most of it
06:34:15 <ais523> although it's a collaborative effort
06:34:19 <elliott> ais523: so how does space hotel work
06:34:30 <ais523> elliott: I'm guessing it's the same as quintopia_a
06:34:33 <elliott> ais523: right, it is one of the longest articles mainly because you wrote it :)
06:34:45 * elliott thinks ais523 should try constrained writing
06:34:45 <ais523> in which case it's described on the strategies page
06:34:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24532
06:34:53 <ais523> either that, or it's an evolution of it
06:35:02 <elliott> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot.hg/index.cgi/raw-file/6d523478892c/quintopia_a.bfjoust
06:35:11 <elliott> at least, space_hotel is much huger
06:35:26 <elliott> though the basic structure looks similar
06:35:49 <ais523> one thing that worries me is that deep poke + breadcrumb decoys + offset clear is not a strategy that anyone's figured out how to beat yet
06:35:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6010
06:36:11 <ais523> apart from leviathan, none of the recent hilltoppers are significantly different from that
06:36:38 <ais523> and the only known way to beat the strategy is to just pull off the same strategy more efficiently
06:36:47 <zzo38> Csound doesn't support looping zero times!
06:37:07 <elliott> `run pastelogs 'space.hotel'
06:37:35 <ais523> you could try to lock the clear loop; that's how defend7 beats Gregor's programs
06:37:42 <ais523> but that itself seems beatable
06:37:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4494
06:38:10 <elliott> 02:58:59: <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/hjjg
06:38:10 <elliott> 02:59:11: <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 65.3
06:38:10 <elliott> 03:00:22: <quintopia> !bfjoust a <
06:38:10 <elliott> 03:00:25: <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_a: 0.0
06:38:21 <elliott> @ask quintopia is the description for quintopia_a on the strategies page up-to-date for space_hotel?
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06:39:26 <Bike> i wonder if you could make an abstract srategy game so complicated that lipograms would start to resemble A Void. because tht's sure what it's looking like
06:39:29 <ais523> and it's not like you can really attack the existence of breadcrumb decoys
06:40:01 <ais523> which program should I pick on
06:40:40 <ais523> !bfjoust this_somehow_beats_space_hotel >+
06:40:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_somehow_beats_space_hotel: 5.9
06:40:53 <ais523> !bfjoust this_somehow_beats_space_hotel <
06:40:56 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_somehow_beats_space_hotel: 0.0
06:41:53 <ais523> oh, the strategy I was going to use wouldn't work
06:42:06 <ais523> space_hotel checks its breadcrumbs in the wrong order
06:43:08 <ais523> yeah, I can't see a way to attack this particular breadcrumb trail strategy
06:43:17 <ais523> like, exploit the existence of the strategy
06:43:19 <ais523> but I'll think about it
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07:02:57 <ais523> !bfjoust beats_ffspg_perfectly http://sprunge.us/UJOL
07:03:03 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_beats_ffspg_perfectly: 9.0
07:03:40 <ais523> Gregor_furry_furry_strapon_pegging_girls.bfjoust vs ais523_beats_ffspg_perfectly.bfjoust <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 42 ais523_beats_ffspg_perfectly.bfjoust wins.
07:04:06 <ais523> I don't see any way to generalize the technique to beat more than one program, though :(
07:04:54 <ais523> it also works against space_hotel on very short tapes, for the same reason it works on ffspg
07:05:09 <ais523> but won't work on longer tapes because it can't exploit pokes that don't leave trails
07:05:34 <oklopol> "<kmc> oh, i kind of figured it was meant to evoke an incredibly complicated way of arriving at a sequence of instructions drawn from 8 possibilities"
07:05:45 <oklopol> um i'm pretty sure that indeed was the idea.
07:06:25 <ais523> oklopol: oh, I missed the point then
07:06:32 <ais523> haha, it beats dreadnought too
07:06:37 <elliott> ais523: you should write a program that derives a warrior that beats the input warrior
07:06:38 <ais523> for exactly the same reason it beats ffspg
07:06:46 <elliott> it doesn't seem obviously uncomputable
07:06:49 <ais523> elliott: I've had some thoughts about that
07:06:55 <ais523> but there isn't an obvious way to do it that works in all cases
07:07:07 <elliott> ais523: well, you can trivially do it, assuming such a program exists
07:07:09 <elliott> because tape lengths are finite
07:07:34 <elliott> I guess it could be "hard" in the sense that you could use your (quite tiny) state to write a warrior whose behaviour depends on some very complex computation
07:07:34 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:07:49 <elliott> s.t. it would have to roll that inside out somehow
07:09:45 <ais523> !bfjoust beats_ffspg_perfectly http://sprunge.us/UhJN
07:09:48 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_beats_ffspg_perfectly: 6.0
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07:10:11 <ais523> !bfjoust beats_ffspg_perfectly http://sprunge.us/UJOL
07:10:18 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_beats_ffspg_perfectly: 9.0
07:10:29 <ais523> there, it gets a perfect win against two really good warriors
07:14:01 <ais523> I guess I could use some sort of slow undermine
07:14:28 <ais523> but that doesn't work either because programs use a forward decoy setup for their breadcrumb filling
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07:15:55 <oerjan> > "implementation/implementation"
07:28:50 <oerjan> `run echo 'Agent "Ïa" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving.' >wisdom/ais523
07:29:01 <HackEgo> Agent "Ïa" Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving.
07:32:18 <fizzie> Is that really true, or are you just fibbing?
07:35:59 <oerjan> well, the middle name may not be _entirely_ correct.
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08:03:15 <sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora ... update about 3 hours ago
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08:18:05 <fizzie> [07:15:38] <ngnaiduf> someone, someone, someone else: that thing there [007477]
08:18:11 <fizzie> Are you sure you want me to bring that thing here?
08:18:22 <fizzie> (For the record, it's 10:18 in this time zone now.)
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08:37:41 <zzo38> I figured out something about Csound score macros. Macros can expand into comment delimiters, and macro invocations can be nested like $p$r.. and the macro name can include [] expressions
08:37:48 <fizzie> I think it's bit of a shame that even though it's zero-padded, it's not actually an octal number.
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10:53:42 <oerjan> fungot: are you unique?
10:53:43 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( oh)) i can't really say i've gone into the pentagon the plane you know
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10:54:11 <oerjan> i'm ... not sure we are ready to know
10:55:17 <fizzie> fungot: I should probably keep a closer eye on what you're up to.
10:55:17 <fungot> fizzie: not be to their benefit i think that um i guess a lot of
11:14:44 <sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora Ph
11:17:24 <Fiora> "im afaid* so. i think the story is builting romantic tension between us."
11:18:10 <Jafet> Is there an unfungot?
11:18:11 <fungot> Jafet: it's kind of like you know
11:18:33 <fizzie> What would an unfungot be like?
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11:59:21 <GreyKnight> So fungot has gone into the Pentagon... And it will "not be to their benefit"...
11:59:21 <fungot> GreyKnight: yeah yeah i yeah i don't have
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12:03:53 <fizzie> fungot: Are you, in fact, a terrrrorist?
12:03:53 <fungot> fizzie: well you kind of have a business name or something that i i don't understand
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12:44:04 <sgeo> So, guess what scheme the "hacker genius" at tech club came up with to make brute forcing harder
12:44:18 <sgeo> (against encryption)
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12:44:41 <sgeo> Use several algorithms. Order of algorithms and which algorithms are used are secret similarly to the key
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12:45:26 <sgeo> I tried to point out that that doesn't help as much as just adding a lot of bits to the key
12:45:44 <monqy> what does hacker genius mean here
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12:46:25 <sgeo> monqy, the person at tech club who apparently works as a penetration tester and thought that parameterized queries are vulnerable to null byte attacks
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12:47:06 <monqy> so he's really not a hacker genius
12:47:10 <monqy> what's a tech club
12:47:18 <sgeo> Club at school
12:47:39 <monqy> is it always like this
12:48:44 <sgeo> But I keep getting fascinated by what he says. It's like, when he says something I don't understand fully, he could be completely correct, but he could be wrong, I don't know, but when he talks about stuff I understand, he's just not that great
12:48:59 <sgeo> Although that USB thing that fakes being a keyboard is kind of cool
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12:49:58 <sgeo> As in, it gets plugged in, it starts typing stuff to open a command prompt and do things on the system
13:03:51 <sgeo> But when he talks about stuff I don't understand, I just find myself being impressed, even though I have no way of being sure that he knows what he's talking about
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13:37:31 <GreyKnight> elliott: I realised you don't actually break my hypothesis because your nick starts with a lowercase letter
13:37:40 <Taneb> My plan to video game today has a fatal flaw
13:38:35 <fizzie> It is Friday, and it would be socially unacceptable to video game away a Friday evening?
13:38:43 <fizzie> (I understand this be the case in some circles.)
13:38:51 <Taneb> I can't find my PS2 controller
13:39:07 <fizzie> Use a PS/2 controller instead.
13:39:21 <Taneb> That will work perfectly well!
13:39:34 <fizzie> A serial air traffic controller.
13:42:02 <lambdabot> CodeWeaver says: keep in mind encryption's only as good as how much you trust that the implementors got it right.
13:43:28 <quintopia> as long as the implementors are smarter than me
13:43:28 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:50:18 <GreyKnight> If environment variables were structured we could store PATH as a list of strings, the way God intended
13:52:26 <Taneb> Would SBurb be a rogue-like?
13:53:00 <Jafet> A Set of Directory Names, you neanderthal
13:53:14 <Taneb> SBurb is a set of directory names!?
13:53:39 <Jafet> What is SBurb, fungot?
13:53:39 <fungot> Jafet: you need to have
13:54:14 <Taneb> The bot's right, Jafet.
13:54:18 <Taneb> You need to have SBurb
13:54:34 <Taneb> Otherwise you won't survive the meteors
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13:59:53 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have a copy?
13:59:53 <fungot> fizzie: no we just passed the ban two weeks ago in the sunday league and they would have they'd be in jail why are you in
14:00:45 <Jafet> fungot: I approve of banning sburb.
14:00:45 <fungot> Jafet: supplies that we could pay for
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14:10:44 <GreyKnight> Jafet: if it was a set we'd need a way of choosing between identically-named executables
14:11:12 <GreyKnight> Hmm unless we just run them all with the specified arguments and discard any results that gave an error?
14:13:52 <GreyKnight> Unrelated, but: "These criteria are not rigorous in any real sense (you'd need a formal semantics for Haskell in order to give a proper answer to this question)"
14:13:53 <GreyKnight> ^ Haskell doesn't have a formal semantics?!??
14:14:22 <Jafet> People didn't want to have formal semantics flamewars
14:14:39 <Jafet> Dry cleaning costs too much
14:14:55 <GreyKnight> I am totally surprised, Haskell seems like the language most likely to have one defined
14:19:13 <Jafet> The kind of languages where people actually need formal semantics are: C, Java, PHP, ARMv6
14:19:31 <Jafet> (I did not make up those examples)
14:19:55 <Jafet> Do you know how many phd student grants a formal semantics costs
14:21:28 <Jafet> There's a semantics for a fragment of PHP
14:21:41 <Jafet> They used it to find a language bug
14:21:54 <Jafet> I think it's in icfp
14:24:05 <Jafet> http://www.research.ibm.com/trl/people/mich/pub/200901_popl2009phpsem.pdf
14:24:20 <Jafet> Ok, it was in popl
14:25:05 <GreyKnight> Can't we just pay some grad students a year's worth of pot noodles? :o)
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14:25:39 <Jafet> The cost of the noodles is very small compared to the cost of the phd
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14:28:22 <GreyKnight> Jafet: while searching for the paper, I got an Amazon link for "Low Prices on Formal Semantics". Forget the pot noodles, we'll order it online!
14:29:31 <fizzie> Ut-oh, checking "what was that weird angel book on display at the bookstore" wasn't the best idea w.r.t. Amazon recommendations: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121214-amazon.png
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15:22:57 <kmc> Standard ML famously has a formal semantics
15:23:07 <kmc> but it's in some book that costs money :(
15:23:20 <kmc> also mmm pot noodle
15:23:45 <kmc> maybe i'll have shin ramyun for breakfast
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16:40:10 <sgeo> Currently impossible to build Factor from source
16:40:26 <sgeo> Because the build process downloads a binary image from some server, and that server is down
16:40:41 <sgeo> Well, I guess not "impossible", but I don't know how I'd approach it
16:40:52 <sgeo> Other than waiting for it to be fixed
16:45:43 <sgeo> It's like SBCL
16:46:37 <elliott> GreyKnight: not much other choice with a bootstrapping compiler
16:46:38 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:47:16 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes
16:47:23 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo, SBCL can use any CL implementation, at least in theory.
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16:49:05 <sgeo> I just thought of one feature that Squeak Smalltalk has that the Factor environment doesn't: The ability to, after an arbitrary exception, look around, change things, and continue on. I think that's doable in theory in Factor, but as far as I know the tooling isn't there.
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16:49:50 <sgeo> I think one of the big draws of Factor to me is the environment, so... does this mean I should really be playing with Smalltalk?
16:50:27 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
16:50:41 <monqy> answer: should you???????
16:50:58 <kmc> whether playing with clojure or playing with smalltalk, you're just playing with yourself
16:51:48 <sgeo> Clojure has an almost decent sized community. Smalltalk has ... some sort of community, I think. It's really just Factor where I'd be almost alone
16:52:05 <monqy> making a monads library for clojure is making a monads library for the people
16:53:27 <GreyKnight> Does lambdabot or hackego have a random-chooser?
16:53:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: bug msg ping rc run wn
16:55:10 <HackEgo> RQ1T"ue!5*bdPc|>.,Hc##5A~dtMO,ɹ/h)L@T.Ldz
16:55:57 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
16:57:02 <monqy> they're all brainfuck derivatives though
16:57:04 <sgeo> Well, it's a Linux bot
16:57:09 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ 1l \ 2l \ addquote \ adjust \ allquotes \ anonlog \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ boolfuck \ c \ calc \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ define \ delquote \ dimensifuck \ etymology \ forget \ forth \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ glass \ glypho \ google \ haskell \ hatesgeo \ hi \ jous
16:57:18 <HackEgo> \ This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 56 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2009, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \ \ Complete documenta
16:57:21 <HackEgo> gcc (Debian 4.4.5-8) 4.4.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
16:57:24 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
16:57:29 <HackEgo> The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 7.6.1
16:57:38 <elliott> monqy: thats not what interps/ is
16:57:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lua: not found
16:57:51 <monqy> elliott: i know...
16:58:05 <GreyKnight> FINE I'll use the occasion to practice my haskell
16:58:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ada: not found
16:58:21 <HackEgo> Unrecognized option: --version \ Could not create the Java virtual machine.
16:58:22 <sgeo> It needs a COBOL compiler
16:58:32 <Vorpal> some sort of java wrapper at least
16:58:35 <monqy> elliott: i forget what it is though
16:58:45 <sgeo> `java -version
16:58:49 <HackEgo> java version "1.6.0_18" \ OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.8.13) (6b18-1.8.13-0+squeeze2) \ OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 14.0-b16, mixed mode)
16:58:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghdl: not found
16:59:07 <monqy> `hatesgeo --version
16:59:08 <HackEgo> \ This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 56 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2009, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \ \ Complete documenta
16:59:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: vice: not found
16:59:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
17:00:01 <HackEgo> g++ (Debian 4.4.5-8) 4.4.5 \ Copyright (C) 2010 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.
17:00:20 <GreyKnight> Gregor, can we get luarocks on HackEgo? Pretty please?
17:00:24 <Vorpal> hm is there a javac though?
17:00:24 <Phantom_Hoover> GreyKnight, `? ngevd is a link to /dev/urandom, if nobody explained that.
17:00:30 <HackEgo> javac: invalid flag: --version \ Usage: javac <options> <source files> \ use -help for a list of possible options
17:00:33 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
17:01:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: runls: not found
17:01:04 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wis: No such file or directory
17:01:10 <HackEgo> total 356 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 12 Dec 9 07:37 ? \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 12 Dec 9 23:42 ☃ \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 68 Dec 9 23:43 🐐 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 141 Dec 14 07:28 ais523 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 13 Dec 9 22:07 atriq \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 21 Dec 9 07:37 augur \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 64 Dec 9 07:37 banach-tarski \
17:01:20 <Vorpal> hm "debian desktop environment", what does that entail?
17:01:24 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
17:02:15 <elliott> Vorpal: debian default is xfce
17:02:30 <Vorpal> elliott, eh, sounds fine
17:02:37 <sgeo> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3281gSpCr1qhp6k5o1_400.jpg
17:02:58 <Vorpal> elliott, just need to set up the non-free repo afterwards to get the GPU drivers and what not.
17:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo, I presume that image is not actually an SCP reference?
17:03:27 <elliott> Vorpal: depending on yr card the free drivers might work fine
17:03:37 <sgeo> It's the same statue
17:03:43 <sgeo> that's in the SCP-173 image
17:03:47 <Vorpal> elliott, I use opencl, last I checked that didn't work with the free AMD drivers
17:03:47 <sgeo> With its creator
17:03:54 <elliott> tell me more completely obvious facts
17:04:16 <sgeo> I don't know what Phantom_Hoover was asking
17:05:27 <Vorpal> I don't like this, the ETA for the download is counting up at about 2 seconds per second...
17:06:55 <sgeo> http://www.scaithebathhouse.com/en/exhibitions/2005/04/izumi_kato/
17:08:07 <kmc> elliott: so with Nix, does every version of every package you've ever installed stay installed forever?
17:09:06 <elliott> kmc: no it has a (conservative) GC
17:09:28 <kmc> how does it handle things like $PATH
17:09:38 <elliott> kmc: you can think of the nix store as literally a pure programming language's memory
17:09:40 <kmc> if i want to run a python script that starts with "#!/usr/bin/env python", which python does it use
17:09:56 <elliott> uhh I think they keep a /usr/bin/env around
17:10:02 <kmc> also there's no way for it to track references from random scripts i write that aren't in Nix
17:10:05 <elliott> you PATH gets set to the location of your active profile which uses symlinks
17:10:14 <elliott> and the nix-env stuff sets that up
17:10:22 <elliott> you could do this with a unionfs too but they don't
17:10:29 <elliott> 17:10:02 <kmc> also there's no way for it to track references from random scripts i write that aren't in Nix
17:10:39 <elliott> you can specify gc roots explicitly
17:10:47 <elliott> which happens if you install a package explicitly obvs
17:11:00 <elliott> it's not going to remove a package you installed to run a script because it thinks it's unused :P
17:11:18 <kmc> oh, you're saying the things i explicitly ask for are considered roots
17:11:24 <elliott> kmc: because no package manager does that? if your environment references it you want it
17:11:46 <elliott> but if you upgrade a package in your environment then you no longer want the old version
17:11:50 <elliott> or its outdated dependencies etc.
17:12:39 <kmc> so do you think installing nixos on my new laptop is a bad idea or a terrible idea?
17:12:53 <Vorpal> wow, the download ETA displayed in the debian installer is all over the place. They seriously need to add a low pass filter to that thing
17:13:05 <elliott> kmc: well it's new so worst case you can just wipe it and install ubuntu right
17:13:09 <elliott> perfect time to fuck things up
17:14:04 <elliott> they have a nice install guide
17:14:11 <elliott> it's pretty manual last time i checked
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17:17:35 <Vorpal> I tried NixOS in qemu once, and it is awesome. The issue however is that it isn't very mature, there isn't a lot of software already available compared to the more established distros.
17:18:19 <elliott> it's ok kmc doesn't use software
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17:22:34 <kmc> i'm willing to do some amount of packaging work myself as well
17:22:48 <kmc> elliott: so what about security of package distribution
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17:23:03 <kmc> like, one thing i really like about debian is that they are super anal about everything being signed
17:23:11 <kmc> and they understand PKI and trust webs and whatever
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17:23:25 <kmc> whereas the rest of the world things "curl http://... | sudo sh -" is a great way to distribute software
17:23:53 <elliott> kmc: I think they might have signed packages? not sure
17:24:21 <elliott> nix supports user-local installs fwiw
17:24:28 <elliott> that doesn't mean the packages themselves are secure
17:24:37 <elliott> but you can limit the damage of a malicious packgae
17:24:50 <elliott> you might want to ask #nixos
17:25:22 <Vorpal> elliott, what if I would install sudo as user-local or something?
17:25:28 <kmc> i don't believe in user-level separation for vanilla linux desktops
17:25:35 <kmc> there are too many ways around it
17:25:52 <elliott> kmc: well it works in nix, they have a very well-thought out system
17:25:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what would it do though? Just remove the suid bit?
17:25:55 <elliott> you can read the paper about it
17:26:00 <elliott> I think NixOS operates in this way by default, not sure
17:26:16 <elliott> kmc: you could turn off the binary support entirely if you want to be paranoid and slow
17:26:34 <elliott> NixOS is actually a source-based distro whose package manager just happens to have an optimisation to download binaries instead
17:26:48 <kmc> elliott: the distribution you use doesn't affect the reasons i consider user isolation useless on a typical linux desktop
17:26:59 <elliott> they also do binary patches which is really cool (and necessary since otherwise library updates would have horrific rippling effects on everything depending on it)
17:27:07 <kmc> the main reason is just that all the shit i care about is in my account
17:27:14 <Vorpal> <kmc> and they understand PKI and trust webs and whatever <-- wasn't it debian who broke openssl security or something by commenting out some code?
17:27:26 <elliott> kmc: well the thing is that it's sort of inherent to the nixos system that his happens, it's not something you specifically install or whatever
17:27:36 <kmc> if an attacker can get my gmail password and all my secret files, why do i care if they also get root
17:27:44 <elliott> there is a global nix store of pure packages and user-local environments
17:27:51 <elliott> not saying this gives you the user additional security
17:28:06 <elliott> well I think you do need root to add to the store by default because they use source-based hashes not binary-based
17:28:09 <elliott> I don't know what you do to flip that over
17:28:22 <kmc> i'm more concerned about whether someone can MITM my connection and send me bad packages
17:28:29 <kmc> which debian prevents using crypto
17:28:43 <kmc> but most people seem to not give a shit about
17:28:50 <kmc> see also: hackage, pypi, etc
17:28:53 <elliott> anyway you should read http://hydra.nixos.org/build/3479976/download/1/nixos/manual.html and http://hydra.nixos.org/build/3488542/download/1/manual/, possibly in reverse order
17:29:02 <elliott> kmc: I don't really think NixOS cares much more than average there yeah
17:29:16 <kmc> at least the new hipster hegemony serves things from github, which has ssl
17:29:16 <elliott> since it skews heavily on the research/experimental side of things
17:29:32 <Vorpal> kmc, arch linux does signed packages nowdays iirc
17:29:33 <kmc> so i only have to trust some brogrammers who kind of understand how to configure rails
17:29:46 <kmc> i'm sure that Red Hat does as well, since they are Serious Business
17:30:41 <Vorpal> Deewiant, does it do split debug symbols properly yet?
17:31:05 <kmc> but i mean "signs packages" is only one part of the story
17:31:17 <kmc> who has keys, and how is trust in those keys established
17:31:37 <Deewiant> https://www.archlinux.org/master-keys/
17:32:08 <kmc> i got into a long argument with the CentOS people about whether serving a SHA1SUMS file from the same directory as the .iso image over unencrypted HTTP was some powerful security measure
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17:33:20 <FreeFull> kmc: I think it's more of a measure against corrupted or incomplete downloads anyway
17:33:22 <kmc> it does help against evil mirrors but not against MITM attackers
17:33:48 <kmc> FreeFull: that may be the original intent, but the misconception that it's powerful security is widespread
17:34:41 <Vorpal> what does grub error 15 mean I wonder... sigh
17:34:56 <sgeo> I should probably start actually using SHA1SUMS files
17:35:03 <elliott> I don't even bother verifying checksums
17:35:08 <kmc> shachaf: speaking of XSS holes in CUPS, http://seclists.org/bugtraq/2008/Jan/270
17:35:55 <kmc> http://localhost.citibank.com:631/jobs/?job_printer_uri=javascript:alert(document.cookie)
17:35:58 <kmc> yes localhost.citibank.com has address 127.0.0.1
17:36:07 <FreeFull> Vorpal: A file grub expects to be there, isn't
17:36:35 <Vorpal> FreeFull, grub 1 or 2?
17:36:43 <elliott> grub 2 has actual error messages
17:36:47 <elliott> (why are you using grub 1)
17:36:53 <Vorpal> well, why is grub 1 still on sda and sdb then
17:36:55 <kmc> localhost.fbi.gov has address 127.0.0.1
17:36:57 <FreeFull> I used to use grub 1 but now use syslinux
17:37:01 <Vorpal> I guess the installer didn't install on the right MBR?
17:37:15 <elliott> kmc: I doubt internal FBI stuff is on fbi.gov at least
17:37:22 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Possibly, try booting from a different drive
17:37:26 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm not. Or it appears I am because debian installer didn't understand my disk
17:38:01 <kmc> elliott: why do you doubt that
17:38:26 <Vorpal> FreeFull, I did, I tried sda & sdb, sdc is windows, so that would be a waste of time. the ssd at sdd though? hm
17:38:53 <elliott> kmc: well I know they have fancy ~super secret~ intranet stuff
17:39:07 <elliott> which I imagine is completely separate from their public web presence
17:39:18 <kmc> that assumes a degree of competence i am not willing to assume
17:39:35 <kmc> anyway it might be on a private network and still use fbi.gov hostnames and *.fbi.gov cookies
17:39:39 <elliott> where is that screenshot of that internal fbi wiki
17:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> the military networks are definitely disjoint from the public internet
17:39:49 <Vorpal> FreeFull, anyway the installer said it installed on sda
17:40:06 <FreeFull> Vorpal: So you can boot into Windows fine?
17:40:27 <FreeFull> Also it's possible the installer's sda isn't grub's whatever
17:40:30 <Vorpal> FreeFull, the ssd says it isn't bootable
17:40:50 <Vorpal> FreeFull, well possibly, but sda and sdb have mdraid so that shouldn't matter
17:41:06 <Vorpal> I'm booting system rescue cd now to figure this out
17:41:26 <elliott> I blame kmc for suppressing this information
17:41:46 <kmc> so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is...typedef int f(float);
17:41:57 <kmc> so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is... StartCom
17:42:08 <kmc> but also typedef int f(float)
17:42:28 <elliott> 17:41:46 <kmc> so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is...typedef int f(float);
17:42:34 <elliott> kmc: i thought you were itidus for a second
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17:44:34 <HackEgo> 364) <Gregor> You just went from "no sexualized ads" to "we have ads for dildos, but they're different for ads for Orangina" X-D
17:51:40 <AnotherTest> anyone mind explaining to me how BJ Foust exactly works, because I don't seem to get it entirely?
17:52:11 <Vorpal> FreeFull, yeah grub2 is not on any disk... How weird
17:52:23 <FreeFull> Arch didn't even have signed packages until this year I think
17:52:42 <FreeFull> At least not outside of testing
17:53:45 <Deewiant> I can't remember when exactly Pacman 4 was released, but I seem to recall that at least [core] was 100% signed last December.
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17:58:13 <fizzie> AnotherTest: You write code, and then the code wins. Or loses, as the case may be.
17:59:23 <AnotherTest> I get that part, I just don't understand when they are executed
17:59:41 <elliott> each program takes a turn to execute one instruction
17:59:47 <elliott> until someone wins or it times out
18:00:13 <elliott> the left program, but I am pretty confident it doesn't matter
18:00:25 <elliott> (the left program is whichever one you decide is left)
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18:02:58 <AnotherTest> Well, so for the "simple" program on http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/index.php
18:03:56 <elliott> you can see it wins on some tape lengths and not others
18:04:36 <AnotherTest> so it's probably a bad idea to make your flag be between 0 and 1
18:05:08 <elliott> AnotherTest: that's a shudder/vibrator strategy; see http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#Shudder
18:05:14 <AnotherTest> because there is a high chance that the enemy will bring your flag to 0 for 2 cycles before you make him commit suicide?
18:05:43 <elliott> and see also http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#Anti-shudder_clear
18:05:48 <elliott> yeah the strategy page is very in-depth
18:13:41 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ 1l \ 2l \ addquote \ adjust \ allquotes \ anonlog \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ boolfuck \ c \ calc \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ define \ delquote \ dimensifuck \ etymology \ forget \ forth \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ glass \ glypho \ google \ haskell \ hatesgeo \ hi \ jous
18:13:56 <FireFly> Where's the hill located, again?
18:14:54 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
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18:23:18 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ printf "%s" "$1"
18:23:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access babies: No such file or directory
18:25:55 <Gregor> FireFly: I haven't yet considered how to migrate competitive games to HackEgo.
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18:27:24 <FireFly> `run cat bin/{hi,hatesgeo}
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18:27:25 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:27:26 <HackEgo> echo hi \ #!/bin/sh \ perl -n -e '/:(.*?)!.*JOIN/; $j{$1}++; END {print "$_ $j{$_};" for sort {$j{$b} <=> $j{$a}} keys %j}' $@
18:27:56 <GreyKnight> `addquote <kmc> so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is...typedef int f(float);
18:28:00 <HackEgo> 869) <kmc> so i guess my root of trust for Arch Linux is...typedef int f(float);
18:28:38 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_file "./interps/glass/glass ./interps/glass/cache"
18:29:11 <Gregor> `glass {M[m ... hmm. I no longer remember glass well enough to just write some X-D
18:29:52 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
18:30:23 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
18:30:57 <elliott> this hackegobot merge does not seem to be functioning perfectly :P
18:31:11 <elliott> btw how will bf joust being on hackego interact with the repo history getting wiped
18:31:39 <Gregor> elliott: (a) hopefully I don't need to wipe repo history any more, (b) that's the problem, innit ;)
18:32:52 <Gregor> Also, I haven't seen any bugs in what actually /is/ merged yet...
18:33:00 <FireFly> `run bf_txtgen "do the binaries in here work?"
18:33:01 <HackEgo> bash: bf_txtgen: command not found
18:33:08 <Gregor> bf_txtgen isn't merged yet ;)
18:33:18 <FireFly> `run *interp*/bf_txtgen "do the binaries in here work?"
18:33:20 <HackEgo> bash: interps/bf_txtgen: is a directory
18:33:32 <elliott> Gregor: You've seen a bug in what's merged, you just papered over it :P
18:34:02 <elliott> Stuff that does #!/usr/bin/env perl was broken because bin/perl was your user interface to Perl.
18:34:16 * elliott thinks interpreter stuff should just have its own separate bin/ accessed by "!foo" rather than "`foo"
18:34:27 <elliott> that would also make `ls bin more useful when messing with hackegoy commands and stuff
18:34:53 <Gregor> The whole thing is that I don't want there to BE a distinction between HackEgoy stuff and EgoBoty stuff. I want there to be one bot X-D
18:35:04 <elliott> My point is that there is inherently a distinction in some ways
18:35:07 <FireFly> They could be separate dirs and both could be in $PATH?
18:35:07 <Gregor> I don't want there to be two bots with a single manifestation.
18:35:22 <elliott> stuff in bin/ gets seen internally rather than just being UI and there are namespace overlaps
18:35:59 <elliott> and it's kind of inconvenient to have a bunch of mostly-trivial wrapper scripts inamongst the code that people actually wrote for the bot
18:36:24 <FireFly> command eval could prefix interps-bin to $PATH or something
18:36:30 <FireFly> Maybe that wouldn't help..
18:37:08 <elliott> The distinction between "`eval foo" and "!foo" is just that the latter is less convenient
18:37:24 <elliott> though implementing "!foo ..." by mapping it to "`interp foo ..." would make total sense
18:37:32 <elliott> Gregor: would that be merged enough?
18:37:41 <elliott> that way you could totally customise the !foo behaviour, it would just be another entry point to the bot
18:37:54 <elliott> it is basically just a namespacing/clutter issue to me, shrug
18:38:13 <elliott> note that I'm not saying the distinction should be "which bot had the command originally"
18:38:20 <elliott> for instance it makes sense for bfjoust to be `bfjoust IMO
18:38:37 <Gregor> `run mkdir ibins; for i in bin/*; do if [ "`grep '\. lib/interp' $i`" ]; then mv $i ibin/; fi; done; printf '#!/bin/sh\nCMD=`cut -d' ' -f1 "$1"`\nARG=`cut -d' ' -f2- "$2"`\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp
18:38:40 <elliott> (oh one solution to repo-wiping would be for the bfjoust stuff to maintain its own nested hg repo...)
18:38:52 <elliott> Gregor: I hope you didn't test that first
18:38:59 <Gregor> Testing is for losers.
18:39:15 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `ibins': File exists \ mv: target `ibin/' is not a directory \ mv: cannot move `bin/1l' to `ibin/': Not a directory \ mv: cannot move `bin/2l' to `ibin/': Not a directory \ mv: cannot move `bin/adjust' to `ibin/': Not a directory \ mv: cannot move `bin/asm' to `ibin/': Not a directory \ mv: cannot move `bin/axo' to `i
18:39:27 <elliott> gratzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
18:39:47 <elliott> Gregor: idea: if a command causes a commit but gives no output, HackEgo gives a link to the hg web interface commit
18:39:51 <Gregor> `run mkdir ibin; for i in bin/*; do if [ "`grep '\. lib/interp' $i`" ]; then mv $i ibin/; fi; done; printf '#!/bin/sh\nCMD=`cut -d' ' -f1 "$1"`\nARG=`cut -d' ' -f2- "$2"`\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp
18:39:51 <elliott> so you can see if it worked
18:40:09 <Gregor> Oh, that's a nifty idea.
18:40:24 <elliott> arguably it should give a link even if it does give output, but for stuff like quotes it'd have to be two lines
18:40:26 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `ibin': File exists \ grep: bin/@: No such file or directory \ grep: bin/c: No such file or directory \ grep: bin/k: No such file or directory
18:40:31 <elliott> commands that write aren't very common
18:40:46 <elliott> and you can omit the "No output." line if you are linking a commit on another line
18:41:24 <elliott> alternatively you could shorten the urls to http://codu.org/e/dfigj or something and then just include it at the end of every line that touches stuff
18:41:33 <elliott> I guess a shorter cutoff for commands that cause modifications is no big deal
18:41:45 <Gregor> It might be valuable to have some very small, out-of-the-way mention that it DID produce output, without showing a full URL. You can always find the URL easily enouogh.
18:42:14 <Gregor> `interp bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.
18:42:15 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/interp: 2: Syntax error: EOF in backquote substitution
18:42:22 <elliott> I find it a bit of a pain to find the fshg URL and then refresh a bunch
18:42:27 <elliott> hence why a link would be handy when messing with stuff IMO
18:44:12 <Gregor> `run printf '#!/bin/sh\nCMD=`cut -d'\'' '\'' -f1 "$1"`\nARG=`cut -d'\'' '\'' -f2- "$2"`\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp
18:44:19 <elliott> I think Gregor is implementing said proposal right now :P
18:44:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`cut -d' ' -f1 "$1"` \ ARG=`cut -d' ' -f2- "$2"` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
18:44:24 <Gregor> `interp bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.
18:44:25 <HackEgo> cut: bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.: No such file or directory \ cut: : No such file or directory \ exec: 4: ibin/: Permission denied
18:44:34 <GreyKnight> Gregor: Also please can has lua/luarocks :-)
18:44:35 <elliott> Gregor: echo "$1" | cut ...
18:44:36 <Gregor> I suck at this apparently X-D
18:45:05 <Gregor> `run printf '#!/bin/sh\nCMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d'\'' '\'' -f1`\nARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d'\'' '\'' -f2-`\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp
18:45:05 <elliott> Gregor: I have an idea... why don't you just make "!foo bar baz" pass along two args, "foo" and "bar baz" :P
18:45:14 <elliott> Then you can do the splitting in multibot Python rather than HackEgo sh.
18:45:17 <kmc> hex editing linux kernel modules to support new hardware, like a boss
18:45:21 <Gregor> elliott: I can't use ! yet since EgoBot is still alive.
18:45:24 <Gregor> elliott: This is a stopgap.
18:45:31 <elliott> I guess interp works for now though
18:45:38 <Gregor> `interp bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.
18:45:54 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma+ \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ No \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquot
18:46:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastenquot: not found
18:46:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastaquote: not found
18:46:24 <elliott> Gregor: Where's my "..." cutoff
18:46:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15092
18:46:40 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access maketext: No such file or directory \ /hackenv/bin/maketext: line 2: maketext/0: No such file or directory \ 0
18:46:55 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access maketext: No such file or directory \ /hackenv/bin/maketext: line 2: maketext/0: No such file or directory \ 0
18:46:57 <elliott> Hmm, it would be nice to have something that automatically does | paste
18:47:01 <Gregor> `run printf '#!/bin/sh\nexec quote pasta' > bin/pastaquote; chmod 0755 bin/pastaquote
18:47:20 <Gregor> NOW WE JUST NEED SOME QUOTES ON PASTA
18:47:37 <sgeo> Ketchup on pasta is delicious.
18:47:58 <Gregor> GreyKnight: How big is luarocks? Can you just install it yourself? X-D
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18:48:51 <GreyKnight> Hm, maybe with the right curl invocation I could! It is not that large
18:49:01 <Gregor> Well THAT should never happen
18:49:17 <Gregor> GreyKnight: Can't use curl directly, but you can use `fetch .
18:49:51 <fizzie> fungot: Are you jealous of how everyone else's bot is getting all kinds of attention while you last got a code-change years ago?
18:49:52 <fungot> fizzie: i'm not a racist i just i always seem to raise it around the holidays like christmas and mn it
18:50:06 <GreyKnight> I will do it when I am not dog-tired as currently, that condition tends to interact badly with installing anything
18:50:18 <elliott> fizzie: I think now would be a good time to change fungot.
18:50:19 <fungot> elliott: i don't remember getting taught in school that they go to sleep
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18:50:32 <elliott> fizzie: In anticipation for its moving to Deewiant's fancy new interpreter???
18:50:32 <GreyKnight> fizzie, what can we add to fungot? He is perfect in every way
18:50:32 <fungot> GreyKnight: ( ( like what))
18:50:36 <elliott> fizzie: You have to move it to Shiro 2 also
18:50:42 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ \ # Get the bitwidth from the command \ BW=`echo "$CMD" | sed 's/bf//'` \ if [ "$BW" = "" ] ; then BW=8 ; fi \ \ interp_file ./interps/egobf/src/egobfi$BW
18:51:11 <elliott> Gregor: Hypothesis: the vast majority of ibin/ is redundant to interps/ and `interp could handle it itself.
18:51:25 <elliott> `run cd ibin; more * | paste
18:51:28 <Vorpal> FreeFull, yay, I now got grub 2, I get a rescue prompt now
18:51:29 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16839
18:51:38 <elliott> (I BET YOU DIDN'T KNOW MORE COULD DO THAT)
18:51:39 <Gregor> elliott: No, definitely not. They all have different standards for how to take input. File, stdin, need flags, etc etc.
18:51:41 <fizzie> GreyKnight: There are bugs in the babbling, I think. It's not implementing the algo-rhythm correctly. I think.
18:51:52 <Gregor> elliott: interp is just raw interpreters, ibin/ is "make this interpreter take some damned code"
18:51:52 <elliott> Gregor: Congrats on accidentally moving ? and @.
18:52:12 <elliott> Gregor: Nice, there is an ibin/sh
18:52:17 <Gregor> elliott: Stop complaining when it's SO EASY TO FIX.
18:52:18 <elliott> That was on the path and nobody even noticed
18:52:27 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Did you have to install it manually
18:52:46 <elliott> Gregor: Anyway what I mean is that the vast majority of these just seem to be interp_file, and `interp could handle that itself.
18:52:51 <Vorpal> FreeFull, yes, from a gentoo-based live cd. Oh the irony
18:53:02 <HackEgo> 816) <itidus21> and all this time I thought we were talking about postmodern analysis of junk mail delivery methods and simulations of elephant breeding patterns
18:53:06 <elliott> Well, except that the executables in interps/ have different names, but that seems fixable.
18:53:07 <Vorpal> FreeFull, still, it can't find anything
18:53:17 <FreeFull> Vorpal: Gentoo live cds are the way to install any other distro manually
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18:53:35 <elliott> Oh hey, you could just shorten these by making lib/interp a valid #! interpreter
18:53:40 <Vorpal> FreeFull, well, system rescue cd is an extremely good live cd
18:53:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ \ export I_CMD="$0" \ export I_ARG="$1" \ export ARG_FILE="/tmp/input.$$" \ \ get_arg() { \ #if expr "$I_ARG" : "http://" > /dev/null \ #then \ # wget $WGET_OPTIONS "$I_ARG" -O "$ARG_FILE" \ #else \ printf '%s' "$I_ARG" > "$ARG_FILE" \ #fi \ } \ \ clean_arg() { \ rm -f "$ARG_FILE" \ } \ \ interp
18:53:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/lib/interp
18:53:54 <Vorpal> FreeFull, and gentoo-based
18:54:02 <elliott> Gregor: I see this doesn't use the HTTP proxy
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18:55:21 <elliott> How does this sound for reducing the clutteriness of ibin/: Rather than `interp running the file in ibin directly, make `interp start sh and source lib/interp and then source ibin/$foo. Then they'd just be one-liners. I have no idea why this is better but it feels better.
18:55:25 <Vorpal> FreeFull, you know what, grub 1 was so much easier to get working...
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18:55:42 <elliott> GRUB 2 is trivial to get working if you don't have a supercomplicated LVM RAID setup.
18:55:54 <FreeFull> Vorpal: SYSLINUX is pretty easy
18:57:05 <Vorpal> elliott, not super complicated. For /boot it is just plain mdraid
18:57:22 <Vorpal> elliott, the issue is that linux and grub doesn't agree on which device is sda, sdb and so on
18:57:50 <Vorpal> I believe that at least
18:57:59 <elliott> Vorpal: grub doesn't even use "sda".
18:58:12 <elliott> Partitions are numbered from 1 in grub2, if that's what you mean.
18:58:25 <Vorpal> elliott, exactly, but it maps hd1 to sda and so on when doing grub-install from linux
18:58:32 <Vorpal> and that mapping is off
18:58:39 <Vorpal> and figuring out the correct mapping is a pain
18:58:50 <HackEgo> Usage: java [-options] class [args...] \ (to execute a class) \ or java [-options] -jar jarfile [args...] \ (to execute a jar file) \ where options include: \ -d32 use a 32-bit data model if available \ -d64 use a 64-bit data model if available \ -server to select the "server" VM \ The d
18:59:29 <HackEgo> Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for
18:59:46 <Vorpal> ah, I can get a device map with ls
19:00:07 <Vorpal> if I write it down I can compare the partition layout to figure out which device is which
19:00:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo '!"#$%^&* 0123456789'
19:00:17 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interps/k: No such file or directory
19:01:21 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
19:01:28 <elliott> `interp c printf("Giving Gregor the benefit of the doubt by trying again");
19:01:45 <HackEgo> cat: Gregor: No such file or directory \ Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily una
19:01:57 <HackEgo> cat: interps/gcccomp: Is a directory
19:01:58 <Gregor> `cat interps/gcccomp/gcccomp
19:02:00 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ LANG="$1" \ \ case "$LANG" in \ c) \ HEAD='#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\n#include <string.h>\n#include <sys/types.h>\n#include <unistd.h>\nint main(int argc, char **argv) {' \ TAIL='; return 0; }' \ EXT='c' \ GCC='gcc' \ FLAGS='-std=gnu99' \ ;; \ \ c++) \ HEAD
19:02:27 <elliott> interp_file "./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp $1"
19:02:30 <elliott> I don't get how this could possibly work
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19:08:48 <Vorpal> so yeah the device map was definitely off
19:10:07 <Vorpal> elliott, wow, debian gave me 800x600 on a 1680x1050 monitor
19:10:19 <Vorpal> I guess I need catalyst
19:11:15 <elliott> did you install stable or something
19:11:17 <Vorpal> I'm just confused by debian testing gave me gnome 3
19:11:26 <elliott> where did you get the install media from
19:11:40 <elliott> where did unetbootin get the install media from
19:12:03 <Vorpal> elliott, the magic drop down box, with the option marked "netinstall_testing x86-64"
19:12:12 <Vorpal> anyway let me check lsb_release
19:16:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :(: not found
19:16:27 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `:' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:( : | : & );:'
19:16:35 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ ibin \ ibins \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
19:16:40 <HackEgo> bash: - : invalid option \ Usage:bash [GNU long option] [option] ... \ bash [GNU long option] [option] script-file ... \ GNU long options: \ --debug \ --debugger \ --dump-po-strings \ --dump-strings \ --help \ --init-file \ --login \ --noediting \ --noprofile \ --norc \ --posix \ --protected \ --rcfile \ --restricted \ --verbose \
19:16:42 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma+ \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ No \ pastaquote \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ p
19:16:52 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `:' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:( : | : & ); :'
19:16:54 <Gregor> You want to do the command right.
19:16:55 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `echo' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:( echo test );:'
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19:17:01 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `}' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:{:|:&};:'
19:17:07 <kmc> try not fucking up
19:17:13 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:17:26 <Vorpal> `run a(){ echo test };a
19:17:28 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:17:34 <Vorpal> Gregor, okay this /IS/ broken
19:18:01 <Vorpal> `run a(){ echo test; };a
19:18:12 <FreeFull> /bin/sh: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:18:17 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:(){:|:&};:'
19:18:38 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:(){:|:&}; :'
19:18:42 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `{:' \ bash: -c: line 0: `:(){:|:&} :'
19:18:47 <Gregor> Why are these forkbombs so difficult!
19:18:56 <Vorpal> `run :(){ : | : & } ; :
19:20:34 <fizzie> "Note that unlike the metacharacters ( and ), { and } are reserved words and must occur where a reserved word is permitted to be recognized. Since they do not cause a word break, they must be separated from list by whitespace or another shell metacharacter."
19:21:09 <GreyKnight> fizzie: this seems pretty silly of course
19:21:25 <GreyKnight> But there I go with my earth logic again
19:21:41 <fizzie> GreyKnight: There was something equally silly related to whether a thing is on one line or not, too.
19:23:18 <fizzie> It's probably a rererereinvention at this point.
19:23:29 <GreyKnight> ...okay, it's a sign, I should try scheme shell
19:27:27 <HackEgo> aaaa \ bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ foo \ ibin \ ibins \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
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20:00:02 <HackEgo> 675) <zzo38> I have a program to tell you how far away Jupiter is. It is 4.33 units far.
20:00:05 <HackEgo> 648) <monqy> i cnat eve begin to understand what you meant with that "one"
20:00:09 <HackEgo> 306) <crystal-cola> 3 = 7/2
20:00:09 <HackEgo> 33) <lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary
20:00:10 <HackEgo> 793) <mroman> You can't quote me.
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20:04:08 <monqy> 648 and 793 are bad but i think some people (elliott??) like 648
20:04:09 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 (Data.Maybe.Maybe a0)))
20:04:18 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:04:24 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 (Data.Maybe.Maybe a0)))
20:04:31 <monqy> FreeFull: what are you trying to do
20:05:37 <FreeFull> That's what I was trying to do
20:06:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `Data.Maybe.Maybe
20:06:30 <GreyKnight> is there a Haskell-like shell, I wonder?
20:06:35 <kmc> shachaf: do you know about buzz filtering as an alternative to /ignore?
20:07:04 <Bike> oh yep that turned up actual results. thank god for uncreativity and portmanteaus
20:07:10 <kmc> replaces the text someone sends with "Bz bzzzz, bzz bzzz" and such
20:07:20 <kmc> don't know if IRC clients implement this but it is popular on MIT Zephyr
20:07:27 <Vorpal> kmc, that sounds funny for the first 10 minutes
20:07:38 <Fiora> I made an irssi ignore script that blacks out ignored text
20:07:41 <Fiora> but doesn't remove it
20:07:47 <Fiora> so I can hilight it if I want to read it
20:07:53 <elliott> how do you resist highlighting it
20:07:55 <Fiora> it makes it easier to follow conversations where one person is ignored
20:08:03 <Fiora> because otherwise you don't see where they posted things so it gets confusing
20:08:07 <Fiora> or like who someone is responding to
20:08:22 <Fiora> because hilighting things in putty is annoying >_>;;
20:08:26 <sgeo> I think I've played with Gale once
20:08:28 <kmc> Fiora: that's a clever solution
20:09:00 <sgeo> Using Yammer, which seems to have been down since forever
20:09:01 <Fiora> http://privatepaste.com/9de8939130
20:09:24 <Fiora> it's kind of icky because I have no idea how to write perl
20:09:56 <Bike> i don't think it's possible to write perl that isn't at least somewhat icky, i think you're good
20:10:06 <kmc> sgeo: wow, Gale is even more obscure than Zephyr
20:11:44 <sgeo> I found it via Wikipedia
20:11:51 <GreyKnight> Fiora: that is some of the clearest Perl I've seen in a while TBH :-P
20:12:07 <Fiora> GreyKnight: I copied it from another script, the only thing I changed was the theme_register line
20:12:14 <kmc> afaik Gale is only used by current and former sysadmins for the student computing group at Caltech
20:12:19 <GreyKnight> so, yeah, I guess you *do* have no idea how to write perl properly :o)
20:12:38 <kmc> shachaf: did you see that CUPS XSS thing?
20:12:40 <shachaf> Seems strictly worse than /ignore, except that you don't get confused.
20:12:48 <Fiora> perl being line noise jokes, teehee
20:13:07 <sgeo> Gregor, suppose someone is flooding the channel
20:13:11 <kmc> it's in that book as well
20:13:20 <sgeo> The way to fix that would probably be to coalesce multiple bzz lines into one
20:13:23 <shachaf> And order that book, I guess.
20:13:31 <kmc> sgeo: or use a temporary /ignore then
20:13:35 <kmc> or just count on ops kicking flooders
20:13:41 <Fiora> the main reason I ignore is because of people who frustrate me or are creepy or something
20:13:45 <Fiora> not because of like, spambots
20:13:52 <Fiora> since ops usually take care of those
20:14:02 <GreyKnight> Bike: Hashell "works only with old GHCs" :-/
20:14:08 <Fiora> and/or services I guess. though I don't know if esper does auto-ban for flood
20:14:13 <Bike> no! the horror
20:14:35 <GreyKnight> Upload date: Sun Jan 18 04:12:50 UTC 2009
20:15:14 <GreyKnight> Fiora: freenode boots you off the network if you send lines too fast, but there is no ban that I know of
20:15:21 <Fiora> ah, so just a kick
20:15:49 <Bike> the freenode spammers i've seen usually hit enough channels to wake up an oper and get themselves k-lined
20:16:00 <GreyKnight> well, off the whole network rather than just off the channel
20:16:33 <Fiora> I remember there was a spam thing where people spammed links that had javascript in the background that enlisted their own computer as a bot to connect to irc and spam more links
20:16:42 <GreyKnight> If you ever see me quitting with "Excess Flood" it's because my connection failed hard enough that several of my messages got backlogged and sent all at the same time :-/
20:17:30 <GreyKnight> (the server sees them arrive with no delay between messages and assumes I'm Up To No Good)
20:17:42 <Bike> Fiora: you mean the thing kmc was talking about like, yesterday
20:18:33 <Bike> some webpage that sent a specially crafted POST to freenode, that looked like connecting to irc + spamming the link
20:18:49 <GreyKnight> freenode now interprets "POST" to mean "QUIT" for this reason :-D
20:19:07 <kmc> and other HTTP verbs
20:19:18 <kmc> in fact XMLHttpRequest lets you use almost arbitrary verbs
20:19:27 <shachaf> kmc: I don't think you can do other HTTP verbs than GET and POST cross-domain, can you?
20:19:33 <shachaf> Without support from the other server, anyway.
20:19:53 <kmc> does XHR even let you do cross-domain GET/POST?
20:19:59 <kmc> (without the CORS dance?)
20:20:04 -!- popl has joined.
20:20:06 <shachaf> I meant with the CORS thing.
20:20:23 <popl> Is this channel for esoteric programming languages?
20:20:26 <shachaf> Once I wrote a somewhat complicated system to do cross-domain communication over <script>s and iframes.
20:20:31 <kmc> popl: in theory
20:20:33 <popl> Oh, nevermind.
20:20:35 <HackEgo> popl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:20:39 <popl> I just got a message.
20:20:44 <kmc> shachaf: https://github.com/videlalvaro/gifsockets
20:20:53 <hagb4rd> "if you let an infinite number of monkeys write an infinite number of texts, somewhere, somehow, you will get the full text of shakespears hamlet"
20:20:59 <popl> Do you know about the recent episode of Elementary?
20:21:20 <shachaf> kmc: You can't look at the contents of GIFs from other domains. :-(
20:21:31 <popl> shachaf: Thanks.
20:21:32 <elliott> elementary is that us sherlock thing right
20:21:32 <shachaf> I mean, you can't putImageData them onto a <canvas>.
20:21:46 <popl> elliott: Yes. A program written in Malbolge was a plot point.
20:22:02 <Bike> "Since a gif image doesn't specify how many frames it has, once the browser opens it, it will keep waiting for new frames until you send the bits indicating that there's no more image to fetch" beautiful
20:22:19 <popl> Yes, it was presumably used to attack some rng on some impregnable safe.
20:22:28 <elliott> maybe that means they looked at the wiki!
20:22:31 <Bike> i look forward to how TV can cock up malbolge
20:22:42 <kmc> what Bike said
20:22:52 <GreyKnight> Well, they had somebody actually *use* Malbolge for something, that sounds like a cockup already
20:22:54 <elliott> someone should tell ben olmstead, if he doesn't know
20:22:55 <kmc> obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ
20:23:11 <Bike> "this language is encrypted, so it's used for safecracking" or something
20:23:12 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
20:23:12 <popl> Bike: It was brief but the code is visible on screen. I did not manage to grab a screenshot.
20:23:22 <Bike> kmc: god i love that clip
20:23:36 <Bike> is there a "programming in fiction" wiki somewhere, like there is for guns?
20:23:54 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUFkb0d1kbU
20:24:13 <shachaf> kmc: Wait, that's not actually sending data that JS can see, is it?
20:24:26 <kmc> gifsockets? i don't know
20:24:26 <shachaf> It's just a streaming GIF encoded on the fly.
20:24:39 * shachaf wrote a GIF decoded in JavaScript once.
20:25:02 <GreyKnight> "uncrop" sounds like something from the C.S.I. magic computer
20:25:21 <Fiora> it's a parody of CSI XD
20:26:01 <Bike> GreyKnight: if you watch the clip, the next step involves finding a reflection, then finding a raindrop and looking at that reflection
20:27:02 <GreyKnight> related: http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii115/e46fanatic/CSI-1.jpg
20:27:42 <Bike> where's the still of the knife attack from?
20:28:00 <Bike> «Today the data base has grown to list over 2600 films,[6] nearly 500 television shows,[7] over 450 video games[8] and close to 200 Anime series.[9]» right
20:28:00 <kmc> never mind that they're mixing the CSI: NY and CSI: Miami guys
20:28:35 <kmc> this reminds me, i should watch NTSF:SD:SUV::
20:28:57 <Bike> is that acronym a joke
20:29:22 <GreyKnight> Bike: I'll say one good thing about guillemet quotes. They form a balanced pair!
20:29:40 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSF:SD:SUV::
20:29:54 <Bike> GreyKnight: that's basically why i use them
20:30:04 <Bike> sport utility vehicle <-- ah
20:30:31 <GreyKnight> shouldn't there be a type name after the ::
20:31:05 <Bike> so, speaking of types, does anyone happen to know if floating point is power associative?
20:34:02 <ion> NTSF:SD:SUV:: is awesome.
20:34:28 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
20:34:44 <hagb4rd> the CSI magic is nothing compared to the good old fashioned Esper Photo Analysis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkcU0gwZUdg
20:35:29 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:35:36 <Bike> the blade runner soundtrack has a lot of that scene's audio in it
20:35:38 <Bike> it's a bit surreal
20:36:07 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd: I was just thinking about that!
20:36:34 <hagb4rd> wouldnt call this a synchronocity at all ;)
20:36:45 <ion> http://anongallery.org/7670/well-the-resolutions-too-poor
20:36:51 <Bike> especially the pseudomechanical clanky noises
20:37:19 <kmc> that reminds me, i should finish watching the x-files as well
20:37:33 <GreyKnight> ion: is that caption a quote from an X-Files episode?
20:38:07 <ion> greyknight: http://www.insidethex.co.uk/transcrp/scrp105.htm
20:38:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:39:24 <Vorpal> anyone know how to switch default sound card and such when you have pulse audio?
20:39:32 <Vorpal> I always used pure ALSA or ALSA + jack before
20:39:37 <kmc> did you ever see the episode of the x-files written by william gibson
20:39:39 <kmc> that one was dope
20:39:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Switch_(The_X-Files)
20:39:42 <popl> Vorpal: Are you asking in the correct channel?
20:39:54 <Vorpal> popl, I ask because I suspect fizzie knows
20:40:11 <popl> /msg fizzie ? :)
20:40:32 <kmc> it starts with a malevolent AI placing phone calls to every criminal gang in the city, plus the US Marshals, telling them all that their respective enemies are at some particular diner
20:40:34 <popl> Anyways, I just wanted to let you people know about Elementary.
20:40:37 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:40:42 <popl> I thought you might be interested.
20:40:52 <ion> kmc: Huh. I have missed the fact that it was written by Gibson.
20:41:00 <popl> Someone could get a screen grab and try to transcribe the program.
20:41:17 <Deewiant> Vorpal: pavucontrol --> output devices
20:41:46 <elliott> the real question is what you'd have to say in #esoteric to be in the wrong channel
20:42:03 <shachaf> elliott: I don't know but somehow I manage to do it.
20:42:06 <popl> I feel as if I may have overstepped the boundaries of netiquette by suggesting Vorpal was asking an offtopic question.
20:42:25 <popl> Especially considering today is the first time I've visited the channel.
20:42:27 <popl> Vorpal: Sorry.
20:42:43 <ion> pfetiquette
20:42:47 <elliott> I can assure you it is always permissible to complain to Vorpal
20:42:47 <kmc> this is a pretty rough & tumble place
20:43:10 <shachaf> Vorpal: Were you being off-topic?
20:43:43 <Bike> popl: as you may have noticed, this isn't the most on-topic of channels anyway. no worries
20:44:01 <popl> Vorpal: Sorry. I believe they are lighting torches. I will attempt to distract them while you make your escape.
20:44:24 * popl \o/ Over here guys!
20:44:35 <GreyKnight> None for you, fungot. I've got my eye on you.
20:44:36 <fungot> GreyKnight: oh okay this is my first child it was like well you know
20:44:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:44:58 <GreyKnight> fungot, I didn't even know you were pregnant!
20:44:58 <fungot> GreyKnight: i love comedy laughter once you get like the whole
20:44:59 <oerjan> (i might stop in a week. maybe.)
20:45:27 <oerjan> (no, that does not include writing into the wrong window.)
20:45:32 <GreyKnight> fungot, have I introduced you to popl by the way? Say hello
20:45:32 <fungot> GreyKnight: what about here we've got people right now are on sale for ten dollars for it
20:45:42 * Bike uses pitchfork, torches to make s'mores
20:45:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher* fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:45:59 <fungot> shachaf: i'm fine how are you laughter laughter
20:46:11 <Bike> people sure say "laughter" on the phone a lot.
20:46:20 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
20:46:22 <shachaf> Bike: laughter laughter laughter
20:46:39 <Bike> fungot, what is an "Agora rule"?
20:46:39 <fungot> Bike: 5. may: performing the duties required of eim by a board of appeal, who must choose from existing categories.
20:46:46 <GreyKnight> Er fungot we aren't allowed to sell people these days... It's considered rude.
20:46:46 <fungot> GreyKnight: ( b) if there were
20:46:47 <fungot> Bike: a transfer order ( except when otherwise specified, the promotor distributes proposals, with the rules;
20:47:14 <Bike> oh, that's gotta be complicated.
20:47:15 <fizzie> The goal of this style was to create new rules.
20:47:35 <Bike> i'm not sure it's working
20:47:37 <fizzie> Maybe not quite a "goal" but anyway.
20:47:54 <Bike> one time in a nomic i made up a rule that was complicated enough that it was unanimously agreed to have it removed :(
20:48:02 <fizzie> If "goal" implies it was expected to work, then it wasn't a goal.
20:48:13 <fizzie> But you never know, of course.
20:48:35 <fizzie> Did someone do something with fungot-generated things? I can't quite remember.
20:48:36 <fungot> fizzie: at the end of every taxable entity, and can be made, the auctioneer shall announce in the
20:48:48 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
20:48:53 <Bike> agora seems to be a rather more complicated nomic, though
20:48:54 <fungot> shachaf: from/ foregoing several considerations we may conclude that their self-sterility has been gradually developed; and that almost simultaneously their reproductive powers. as far as i can discover, strictly gregarious, and/ colonists have not yet begun d'urville, and have fnord for several days in a warm room, and jumping out :)/ domain :) science,' 1868, s. 4.
20:49:05 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:49:09 <Bike> but seriously is fp multiplication power associative
20:49:11 <fungot> shachaf: fnord fnord this soon caused/ tentacles to become greatly flattened. one :) us has been fnord
20:49:15 <Bike> lives are possibly at stake here
20:49:23 -!- augur has quit (*.net *.split).
20:49:23 -!- pikhq has quit (*.net *.split).
20:49:38 <Bike> I didn't know Darwin was so fond of emoticons, fungot.
20:49:49 <fizzie> I should fix that thing, it would've been a good reply with the proper 'the' and 'of'.
20:49:54 <fungot> Bike: fig. 3. chinese honey peach. 4. cucullaea alta, g.b. sowerby. 9. " drosera rotundifolia.
20:49:57 <GreyKnight> If we don't settle the power-associative question, the netsplits will win!
20:50:25 <Bike> think of the augur(y)!
20:50:27 <fizzie> It's a little-known fact that Darwin wrote with a shorthand where / denoted "the" and :) denoted "of".
20:50:41 <oerjan> <fizzie> The goal of this style was to create new rules. <-- well agora had a frankenstein rule once, which was not _entirely_ dissimilar.
20:50:52 <GreyKnight> also he liked to slip fnords into his text
20:51:00 <Bike> fizzie: so is this some bizarre artifact of gutenberg, or
20:51:02 <fungot> shachaf: pot 9: 50 3? 8. pot 9: 47 6? 8.
20:51:13 <fizzie> Bike: No, it's my very own bug.
20:51:19 <hagb4rd> and whats lovecraft? related to hp lovecraft?
20:51:27 <Bike> i have to ask how the hell such a bug arises.
20:51:31 <fungot> shachaf: when a dog is :) his master's affection, if fnord with several species :) theridion " 23. boitard and corbie " 5? 13. mr. browne shot one: certainly it is a remarkable fact: i crossed in a marvellous manner in/ distribution :)/ marsupialia, which are now valued after/ formation :) mountain chains as connected, but quite distinct and level; a little southward :)/ rio cachapual, in which/ two sexes are no doubt related t
20:52:45 <oerjan> <Bike> agora seems to be a rather more complicated nomic, though <-- possibly the largest nomic that ever existed? almost certainly the oldest surviving.
20:53:04 <Bike> wow. i was just playing a card game.
20:53:16 <oerjan> <Bike> but seriously is fp multiplication power associative <-- wait what is this asking
20:53:35 <oerjan> oh floating point not functional programming
20:53:43 <kmc> oerjan: you mean other than the entirety of law around the globe
20:55:20 <Bike> it has four mailing lists. well
20:55:35 <fizzie> Bike: The details aren't terribly interesting, but if you insist. All words are converted internally into integers (indices in the token list) for easier processing; the first N values were reserved for punctuation and are converted back via fixed Funge-98 code; and there was a piece of code in the model-building that removed tokens that didn't occur more than K times. Back when the darwin ...
20:55:42 <fizzie> ... style was built, this filter didn't realize punctuation was exempt, and removed the :) and :( tokens from the list, causing everything else to shift back by two, so the two most common non-punctuation tokens (the, of) got indices reserved for punctuation and are therefore expressed as that in the output.
20:56:06 <fizzie> (Because Darwin in fact used no smileys.)
20:56:07 <Bike> fizzie: ah, neat.
20:56:13 <oerjan> Bike: what's the power associative question, i might be able to tell if i knew what the question _is_
20:56:36 <Bike> oerjan: basically, is fp multiplication associative in the special case where all the operands are the same number.
20:56:53 <Bike> it's not associative in general, obviously
20:57:07 <oerjan> Bike: well in the trivial sense obviously, since a*(a*a) = (a*a)*a by commutativity
20:57:19 <Bike> yes, but more than that
20:57:33 <Bike> wikipedia has x(x(xx)) = (x(xx))x = (xx)(xx) as an example not covered by commutativity
20:58:19 <oerjan> Bike: i assume you mean whether it's associative for arbitrary _combinations_ of a single number. in which case, no.
20:58:22 <Fiora> the one I tested was (x*x*x)*x = (x*x)*(x*x)
20:58:29 <Fiora> which doesn't seem to be true
20:58:50 <Bike> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_associativity wikipedia is better at words than I am.
20:58:53 <oerjan> proof: if it were, it would be a multiplicative semigroup. it is finite. 2*(1/2) = 1, and 1*x = x for all x.
20:59:46 <oerjan> Bike: right, i think that goes under what i say.
21:00:12 <GreyKnight> I am trying to build Lua on HackEgo but the make takes a bit too long for command timeout by the looks of it. What do? :-(
21:00:30 <oerjan> basically the elements generated by 2 with multiplication must be a group. but we know that it includes inf, which has no inverse...
21:00:33 <kmc> what the fuck kind of URI is "udp://tracker.thepiratebay.org:80"
21:00:44 <kmc> "just send some UDP packets to this port. don't worry too much about what's in them"
21:00:56 <Bike> http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.txt goddamn, what
21:01:15 <sgeo> Bike, are you going to join Agora?
21:01:29 <Bike> no more than i'm going to join bfjoust
21:02:01 <sgeo> I should read the ruleset at some point and get involved again
21:02:04 <Bike> «The termination of a contract through processes it explicitly envisions (including a rule-defined mechanism, if the contract is intended to be governed under Agoran mechanism, if the contract is intended to be governed under Agoran restriction of its rights as a person.» it's like a real legal code!
21:02:21 <Bike> well, missed a line there, but still
21:02:38 <sgeo> Bike, that's a legal judgement, not a rule
21:02:43 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
21:02:47 <fizzie> fungot: Talk like a real politician.
21:02:51 <fungot> fizzie: just on the record, i would like to question the grounds for derogation in matters of state aid to research. if there is a scientifically justified suspicion of a risk assessment of these proposals which have come through in the application of the aid system must effectively be continued beyond 2002. my feeling is that we contemplate the establishment of further committees it means it could impair the success of this ac
21:02:53 <GreyKnight> I used to play Agora. I caused a bit of an upset while leaving in fact :-3
21:03:11 <oerjan> thank you lambdabot for making this awkward
21:03:12 <sgeo> GreyKnight, wait, are you the one who designed the coat of arms?
21:03:21 <sgeo> I think I memoed you once a long time ago
21:03:32 <Bike> oerjan: basically i was wondering if partial-evvaluating exponentiation with respect to the exponent as some sequence of multiplications and stores would be accurate for a floating base. the answer is apparently no
21:03:34 <GreyKnight> I helped with it I think, can't remember how much was my idea
21:03:52 <sgeo> -MemoServ- Memo 2 - Sent by GreyKnight, Oct 28 19:50:11 2008
21:03:52 <sgeo> -MemoServ- ------------------------------------------
21:03:52 <sgeo> -MemoServ- sure, go nuts
21:03:57 <GreyKnight> IIRC there was a quill (for writing rules) and an axe (for er the reverse)
21:04:08 <Bike> http://agoranomic.org/coat_of_arms.png
21:04:09 <fizzie> fungot: By all means, try to avoid establishing further committees.
21:04:10 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the best is the enemy of the good. the socialist group. so, within the european union. this is known as the document of this kind.
21:05:30 <fungot> FreeFull: mr president, i wish fulfilment. mr president, i think that all those companies that follow good practice, while the council has not examined the conditions of crews in terms of cost to the european community itself, for example the lines on the subject.
21:06:03 <oerjan> oh wait this argument isn't water-tight
21:06:10 <fizzie> I think in this style fungot has proposed some rather controversial political moves.
21:06:11 <fungot> fizzie: the importance of a rapid reaction facility is starting to formulate a new structure founded on commercialisation and corporate profit. i very much hope that we shall be voting on a text.
21:06:36 <kmc> fungot: i hope so too
21:06:38 <fungot> kmc: mr president, first of all, i too would like to highlight the fact that it has not, so the range of possibilities for finance. incidentally he was aided by the parliamentary committee perfectly appropriate, ' the following spoke on the telephone and to mrs randzio-plath, that the sessions of the international task force will be to the fore this evening in this debate.
21:06:53 <kmc> am i president of #esoteric now
21:06:55 <kmc> is that how it works
21:07:46 <popl> kmc: Too bad you're going to get shot.
21:07:58 <Bike> so who's mrs randzio-plath, kmc? a secretary? something more??
21:08:00 <fizzie> <fungot> elliott: mr president, commissioner, i fully accept that description when it comes to human rights. yes, with an average fat content of chocolate, and we are using double standards! we all know that under present legislation and also in relation to standardization bodies. if i do not want.
21:08:02 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, it is no longer acceptable, and we are now in a position to take the opportunity offered to it by the european parliament supported the schnellhardt report on specific hygiene rules for the conduct of the german criminal legal system wishes to pursue. with a view to simplifying community legislation and from the tragedy of the present official line that each species has to earn the fi
21:08:08 <hagb4rd> `pastequotes *.kmc*.president.*
21:08:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9367 \ grep: nothing to repeat
21:08:21 <hagb4rd> `pastequotes .*kmc.*president.*
21:08:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22041
21:08:43 <oerjan> Bike: forget the argument i gave above, it really needs associcativity of combinations of 2 and 1/2.
21:08:44 <Bike> hm, apparently she's a "Master of European Studies"
21:08:46 <fizzie> The quote file certainly does have the best fungots.
21:08:48 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, mr wuermeling is correct. what goes without saying that the people at jet and ask the members to leave, often for political and religious intolerance, we quite clearly cannot work on reciprocal recognition until at least 24 hours after its receipt is announced to members. a proper statute should cover the development of its work.
21:08:54 <elliott> Bike: agora isn't that complex
21:08:54 <Bike> oerjan: forgotten
21:08:54 <hagb4rd> i think i have proposed this some day :(
21:09:06 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:09:24 <Bike> " Diplomas in comparative law, development policy and French. Trained as an editor. Editor (1970-1972). Lawyer (1972-1974). Tax lawyer with the Hamburg department of revenue (1974-1976 and 1978-1989)." man she knows what's up
21:09:47 <Bike> also a socialist, are you a socialist kmc??
21:09:52 <oerjan> > [x*(x*x*x) == (x*x)*(x*x) | x <- [1.1, 1.23 .. 10]]
21:09:54 <lambdabot> [False,True,True,True,True,True,True,False,True,True,True,True,True,True,Tr...
21:10:03 <oerjan> Bike: try that instead XD
21:10:04 <kmc> Bike: kinda
21:10:14 <GreyKnight> As I recall, I was the one making legal judgements at the time I left. There was a big discussion about the meaning of "deemed" (I think?), so I gave a judgement by saying that I deemed the proposal to be true :-)
21:10:15 <GreyKnight> shortly thereafter I had to fall off the net for a while due to personal matters, but never formally left the game. There were some funny discussions to read when I eventually got back online :-)
21:10:16 <GreyKnight> kmc: are you now or have you ever been a member of the freenode party?
21:10:24 <oerjan> ok so 1.1 already fails
21:10:25 <elliott> Bike: there are only really three mailing lists
21:10:29 <elliott> they just have backup lists
21:10:36 <hagb4rd> GreyKnight: kmc for president, yes
21:10:45 <Bike> oerjan: fiora did that earlier, except that we got different results on our machines due to possibly sse vs x87 reasons or something
21:10:46 <elliott> and the only real distinction that matters is sending actions to a-b and everything else to a-d
21:10:52 -!- MDude has joined.
21:11:11 <Fiora> 11:54 <@Fiora> http://pastebin.com/3FGtymxq I am a bad person
21:11:28 <Bike> yes her code also involved a fake reinterpret_cast-y thing
21:11:34 <elliott> Fiora: you should be using quickcheck
21:11:43 <Bike> it doesn't work!
21:11:54 <elliott> then it'd just be quickCheck (\x -> (x*x*x)*x == (x*x)*(x*x))!!!!
21:11:54 <Fiora> bike insists I'm a witch :<
21:12:46 <Bike> Fiora: you entered, in all seriousness, the combination of characters «*(float*)&randint». !!!!!
21:12:51 <elliott> @check \(x::Float) -> (x*x*x)*x == (x*x)*(x*x)
21:12:51 <lambdabot> Parse error in pattern at "->" (column 13)
21:12:59 <Fiora> Bike: I'm sorrryyyy okayyyy
21:12:59 <oerjan> elliott: why did you think i was testing @check above, duh
21:13:01 <elliott> @check \x -> (x*x*x)*(x::Float) == (x*x)*(x*x)
21:13:20 <Bike> fiora: of course we probably can't properly compare your weight to that of a duck due to rounding errors. YOU WIN THIS BATTLE, BUT NOT THE WAR
21:13:59 <Fiora> I was hacking it in like, 2 minutes, because I was too lazy for unions >_>;
21:14:10 <oerjan> GreyKnight: she cast me into a newt!
21:14:11 <Fiora> and yes you have to compile it with -fno-strict-aliasing because I am really bad person
21:14:16 <Bike> hm is there a duck typing joke to be made here
21:15:26 <Bike> laziness does strange things to people
21:15:33 <Bike> like retroactively cast them into witches apparently?
21:16:33 <elliott> something about space leaks
21:17:50 <hagb4rd> laziness may be the last of the great virtues. can't imagine any progress without it :P
21:20:23 <hagb4rd> thesis-antithesis-synthesis?
21:21:35 <Bike> marxist float reinterpret_casting, to go with unions i guess
21:21:40 <GreyKnight> It is the impatient lazy man who gets things done
21:22:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i was introduced to it as 'marxist dielectric' and i'm sticking with that
21:23:38 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: you're only allowed to if you can come up with a joke about marxism and capacitors in the next ten minutes.
21:23:39 <kmc> reinterpret_caste
21:24:24 <Phantom_Hoover> marxism is distinguished by strong opposition to capacitalism?
21:25:06 <hagb4rd> truth distinguished by propaganda
21:25:36 <GreyKnight> Phantom_Hoover: I hear they're fond of resistance too
21:25:48 -!- augur has joined.
21:26:51 <Phantom_Hoover> hey augur can you think of any good marxist capacitor puns
21:27:23 <oerjan> i think such a pun would be pretty farad
21:27:51 <popl> oerjan: I hope you stretched first.
21:28:07 * Fiora has already stalin the best puns
21:28:30 <elliott> oerjan: i think you should kick Fiora for that one.
21:28:45 <oerjan> elliott: hey we're no engels either
21:28:50 <popl> marxist capacitor puns?
21:29:12 <Fiora> that would be making a maotain out of a molehill, really
21:29:25 <elliott> i revise my suggestion to a k-line
21:30:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think I can just sit here without lenin Fiora a hand.
21:30:55 <Fiora> should I trotsky out of here while I'm ahead
21:31:58 <Phantom_Hoover> weak like the workers oppressed under the capitalist system
21:31:58 <elliott> can you say any of these terrible puns
21:32:01 <elliott> are any worse than the others
21:32:18 <Fiora> sorry, I'm just PLAying around
21:32:41 <Fiora> it's not like I'm making a manifesto or anything
21:33:14 <oerjan> Fiora: i think you should take a long march
21:33:31 <Fiora> these puns are definitely a great leap forward in #esoteric discussion
21:33:48 <GreyKnight> This discussion is quite politically charged
21:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I think we'd all be better off if we'd just beria lot of these puns in an unmarked grave.
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21:34:35 <elliott> i think we should commit horrific genocide. on these puns.
21:34:38 <elliott> am I doing it right.......................................
21:34:51 <hagb4rd> ok stop bashing fiora.. time for some education.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Wilhelm_Friedrich_Hegel
21:34:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, none of us can claim molotov dignity from this experience.
21:34:56 <Fiora> Phantom_Hoover: I think your puns are deng good
21:35:19 <elliott> don't think anyone is actually sincerely bashing Fiora
21:35:25 <Fiora> I think elliot is being silly ^^;;
21:35:27 <oerjan> elliott: you'll make a killing in this field
21:35:31 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover is the *real* villain here
21:36:00 <Fiora> I'm trying to work lin biao into a pun but that name is hard
21:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> what do you call the cook on the titanic? a khrushchev
21:36:34 <shachaf> Don't kick people whose only crime is fun puns!
21:37:08 -!- asiekierka has joined.
21:38:09 <Fiora> I don't think I'll be able to keep putin these puns together for much longer
21:38:11 <FireFly> ^rot13 marx lenin stalin putin
21:38:12 <fungot> znek yrava fgnyva chgva
21:39:47 <GreyKnight> ^rot13 Url lbh thlf, jung'f tbvat ba va guvf punaary?
21:39:48 <fungot> Hey you guys, what's going on in this channel?
21:39:48 <elliott> http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/12/19/ritz2b.jpg
21:40:07 <elliott> (surely using Putin for Marxist puns is cheating)
21:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> no it's an allegory for the perversion of the marxist ideal
21:41:03 <oerjan> who cares, it's not like these puns are a cultural revolution
21:41:06 <shachaf> elliott: isn't that too american for you
21:41:16 <shachaf> I guess those exist elsewhere too.
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21:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a pity the capacitor puns had to leyden and die so early on
21:45:02 <elliott> GreyKnight: what is that even meant to be
21:45:28 -!- shachaf has set topic: ∀ fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:45:49 <FireFly> fungot: do you have any nice puns to deliver?
21:45:50 <fungot> FireFly: mrs hardstaff, as far as the differences in procedures but of the negotiations currently underway on adopting a common policy on social benefits. it has, only for the council to return to your country of origin' principle, which this house has specifically just voted for this report too.
21:45:51 <shachaf> I wish Unicode had a codepoint for upside down ∀.
21:45:57 -!- kmc has set topic: ¬∀ ¬fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:46:10 <GreyKnight> ∀ fungot what? It seems incomplete now
21:46:11 <fungot> GreyKnight: from a logical point of view, i hope as soon as possible
21:46:27 <FireFly> A logical point of view, eh?
21:46:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: ⅁ fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:46:44 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i don't get that last one
21:46:48 <Fiora> I'm going to diode from all these puns
21:47:04 -!- NihilistDandy has joined.
21:47:23 -!- GreyKnight has set topic: ∮ fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:47:46 <elliott> 21:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe given enough time we'll think of more
21:47:51 <elliott> or was that just the set-up
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21:48:32 <GreyKnight> hmph, okay, using & and/or nohup does not help
21:49:03 <Fiora> at least we're not making spice jokes
21:49:07 <Fiora> I don't think we have thyme for those
21:49:15 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, there is great willingness to formulate common foreign and security policy is playing in the playground. regrettably, three of them have a long way. we will be starting at half past eleven tomorrow. that is the reason why a particular status should be accorded rights of codecision in environmental matters than we have done in the area we should have the tools to cooperate and communicate appropriately acr
21:49:15 <GreyKnight> maybe if I fix it so the make doesn't restart from scratch each time I can do it incrementally
21:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> If we can't take these electric puns to the maxwell then so be it.
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21:49:45 <fungot> GreyKnight: it would not be any generics, but at least we are trying to find a means of ensuring dual pricing which both meets the expectations of our citizens.
21:50:18 <Bike> oh my god, what did i do
21:50:28 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:50:28 -!- ?unknown? has set topic: ∃ fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:50:33 <Fiora> wonderful things :3
21:50:43 <Bike> i'm sorry channel
21:50:48 <Bike> i didn't mean to
21:50:50 <elliott> how did freenode change the channel............
21:51:04 <Bike> there was a while ago
21:51:08 -!- kmc has set topic: ¬∀ ¬fungot | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:51:39 <Bike> fungot: what are your feelings on demorgan's laws
21:51:41 <fungot> Bike: we all want, we must lend a truly helping hand. we need to double in order to make the necessary preparations before travelling. i would further remind you about the fate of the vietnamese, chinese and laotian leaders and have no other choice. that alone can scarcely fail to make headway in the field of safety and at the same time, it should already be divided or partitioned and that, from the point of view of regional po
21:52:04 <FireFly> fungot: stop being all political
21:52:06 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, can the governments of the union depend on this. that is my plea. can we not call for any sort of additional wealth, quite the opposite. obviously this concept must be redefined. i believe that the resolution, was rejected by parliament, to become not only a problem of this day and age. the american missile attacks a response to the amendments to the proposal for a directive provides
21:52:12 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
21:53:01 <FireFly> ∏ fungot = his conversations
21:53:04 <fungot> FireFly: using small boats, we effected a difficult landing on ross island ahead, with the long handle of a fnord society. such people live in a limited world of imagination; accepting fnord the values of common folklore, and tries to trace a strange background of fnord legend and hallucination. when, on wondering how our way was lighted in the absence of any trace of reason when reanimated, so had perforce created nameless hor
21:53:04 <elliott> Bike: well, obviously fungot is a constructivist
21:53:05 <fungot> FireFly: when the light was ample and the howlings still the rowers resumed their strokes, and the problem of our return, and all through that second day he made progress in knowing the men of teloth are dark and fnord.
21:53:18 <elliott> Bike: and therefore doesn't believe in them
21:53:29 <Bike> elliott: logical
21:53:38 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: against all these obstacles i am striving to present a coherent fnord for i am still in the night wind. just before retiring i dispatched a final message to the arkham for fnord and a remark that the doctor had seen many before, and forming above all a mere grim struggle for survival all these things began to happen to robert suydam. just at the hour of reading this item until midmght, west sat almost paralysed.
21:53:54 <elliott> challenge: get fungot to say something racist on the lovecraft style
21:53:56 <fungot> elliott: spectral glamour and potency in the popular literature of magic. i have said, broad fnord but a perplexed look occasionally fnord over his countenance as he sits thinking at his desk and gaze dreamily off at the outspread west the dark towers of memorial hall just below, the georgian court-house belfry, the lofty pinnacles of the downtown section, and that his noises, mutterings, incantations, and chemical odours were
21:53:58 <GreyKnight> fungot is striving to present a coherent fnord
21:53:58 <fungot> GreyKnight: " yes, there's a hotel in innsmouth called the gilman house. it was very blurred, and showed no signs of nervousness save a barely noticed tendency to pause as though listening for something very
21:54:00 <FireFly> Please do present a coherent fnord
21:54:03 <shachaf> How does the differentiation thing work?
21:54:24 <zzo38> I think "midnight" seems misspelled?
21:54:27 <shachaf> How does the simplifying thing work?
21:54:35 <Bike> not very well, evidently
21:55:13 <Bike> :t diff (^3) x
21:55:14 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought, OCR fail probably. But it could be corrected
21:55:38 <FireFly> > reduce $ (x + x :: Expr)
21:56:02 <Bike> let's see, for racist fungot, the most obvious would be the rats in the walls. does it have that?
21:56:03 <fungot> Bike: looking back to our sensations, and recalling our fnord at viewing this monstrous survival from aeons we had thought prehuman, i can
21:56:10 <Bike> also what the hell is "reduce" supposed to be doing
21:56:16 <Bike> is it just a no-op
21:56:32 <Bike> or maybe it's just paranoid about floats??
21:56:47 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `reduce' (imported from Debug.Simp...
21:56:52 <elliott> i think it automatically reduces at every step
21:57:14 <Bike> this is the worst expression reducer i've ever seen
21:57:26 <zzo38> Can you find the codes and fix it?
21:57:47 <Bike> that sounds like work, i'd rather use a proper cas
21:58:05 <shachaf> GHC is not a CAS, proper or otherwise.
21:58:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
21:58:14 <elliott> Bike: well it's better than mathematica
21:58:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:58:24 <Bike> i said /proper/ cas, durr hurr hurr
21:58:51 <fungot> kmc: the sun was already growing fnord there was no trace of its striking could afterwards be found. but i wou'd have you observe what was told to us aboute fnord care whom to calle upp, for you knowe o. and i have myself had many oddly fnord letters from henry akeley which impressed me so profoundly, and which the old woman began to turn. i had formed no clear idea of our object on that night fnord me, and at the most unlikely
21:59:10 <Bike> was lovecraft secretly a discordian, is that what i'm seeing here
21:59:15 <kmc> so what are the main challenges of writing in funge-98
21:59:15 <fungot> shachaf: then his fevered, abnormal bearing caught the distant, fnord notes. over miles of hill and field and alley they came, but his tastes never matched his title. at twenty he had joined a band of uncouth, crouching shapes loping and shambling in the same cryptical stone building with the high, slit-like transom in the fnord fnord it, since west and i did not wish to move away from the tiny tract which carried me, but laid
21:59:28 <Bike> the distant, fnord notes
21:59:58 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
22:00:07 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
22:00:08 <fungot> shachaf: feudal baronage, the root of all acquisition as of all conservation. he that is bound to act in the manner of the great progress which it has been said, " this is the most solid of all titles, not only to you gentlemen for your help in enabling me to earn my living. for something over forty years i have constantly thought and acted. if i had not the slightest doubt as to the evil of which i speak is that which is sent
22:00:17 <fungot> shachaf: i have often thought that if i had wanted to. i made this rhyme: i assert, that even the scriptures, is always particular to never refer to even the illustrious mother of all mankind as a " gentleman extremely well acquainted with the wants of the first weight, ability, wealth, and to perfect and extend the parliamentary reform of lord john russell moved the house of commons
22:00:21 <elliott> kmc: you can cheat by just arranging it so it goes line by line with some crap at the start and end of lines
22:00:23 <kmc> are there linkers for funge
22:00:32 <elliott> also you have to write your strings backwards
22:00:39 <kmc> a 2D linker with relocations and shit would be cool
22:00:53 <elliott> it should make a uml diagram of the linking
22:00:55 <elliott> and have that be the program
22:01:08 <Bike> code in the boustrophedon style
22:01:12 <Bike> that would be pretty boss
22:01:13 <FireFly> Puts a whole new meaning to self-describing code
22:01:32 <shachaf> elliott: Have you "deployed" any esolangs lately?
22:02:05 <Gregor> This IS the international hub of esoteric programming language design and deployment.
22:02:17 <shachaf> Gregor: What does deployment mean?
22:02:26 <Gregor> Uploading tarballs to servers.
22:02:47 <FireFly> Oh, not the international hub of esoteric programming language design and employment?
22:03:06 <shachaf> Gregor: Oh, I've done that.
22:03:13 <shachaf> I've also downloaded tarballs from servers.
22:03:19 <shachaf> Is that what employment is?
22:05:48 -!- sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo.
22:06:54 <Sgeo> I felt weird as sgeo
22:07:13 -!- Gregor has set topic: The international hub for exoteric voodoo programming and astral software projection. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:07:54 <Vorpal> <Deewiant> Vorpal: pavucontrol --> output devices <-- thanks
22:08:06 <Vorpal> <shachaf> Vorpal: Were you being off-topic? <-- yeah, as if that is anything unusual in here :P
22:08:44 <shachaf> Vorpal: Pretty sure most of us are never off-topic in here?
22:10:00 -!- sebbu has joined.
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22:19:41 <fizzie> pavucontrol is what I always use, too.
22:19:55 <fizzie> (I don't know why I wasn't highlighted up there.)
22:21:45 <fizzie> Pulse will (up to some degree, at least) remember if you've pointed particular applications at a particular output, and will select that by default when the application opens a playback stream next time, assuming the output in question still exists. At least that's what it does for me.
22:27:03 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm surry you are being off-topic will have to bann you okay
22:27:21 <shachaf> oerjan: no don't do it!!!!!
22:27:25 <elliott> oerjan: IMO op me so I can voice sebbu and ban chickenzilla.
22:27:34 <oerjan> what did chickenzilla do
22:28:06 <oerjan> yeah we need to cure jix of his interminable talking
22:29:11 <Gregor> Vivo der Franchenfügel
22:29:31 <shachaf> Gregor: Are you going to Knuth's talk today?
22:29:38 <zzo38> What color does this make?
22:30:05 <elliott> What colour does this make?
22:30:08 <Gregor> shachaf: Wasn't planning on it.
22:30:24 <monqy> elliott: good colour
22:30:34 <fizzie> elliott: You made it blink for me. :/
22:30:42 <elliott> fizzie: that was the intention, yes
22:30:46 <oerjan> Der erschräcklige fügel vom ausseren Raum
22:31:01 <zzo38> On my computer they are blue; CTRL+B makes magenta and CTRL+A makes red, CTRL+V makes reverse video, CTRL+C doesn't change the colors.
22:31:25 <zzo38> CTRL+F won't change colors either.
22:31:39 <zzo38> And CTRL+R is also not recognized.
22:32:18 <fizzie> zzo38: If someone sends you [34m kind of codes, does that do anything to colors? (Assuming this goes through right.)
22:32:20 <zzo38> However unregonized control characters (and all control characters in the input) are displayed black on purple.
22:32:48 <zzo38> fizzie: It just displays the [ black on purple because escape is unrecognized control character.
22:33:15 <monqy> shachaf....................
22:33:19 <monqy> shachaf....................
22:33:23 <monqy> its not working...
22:33:26 <oerjan> hagb4rd: ein Franchenfügel beim Name Vivo. vdh.
22:33:37 <shachaf> monqy..............................
22:33:40 <Bike> «I do talk fast but for what it's worth I am not on crack or something:) In fact at age 83 I am still getting high , but just on life alone!»
22:33:58 <zzo38> My client also recognizes CTRL+O to change it back to blue.
22:34:40 <shachaf> ,4monqy.........................................
22:34:56 <hagb4rd> oerjan: franchenfügel? what could this be..no idea
22:35:01 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:35:13 <shachaf> ^rainbow Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:35:14 <fungot> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric progr ...
22:35:50 <hagb4rd> oerjan: was that a creation of this bot?
22:35:51 <zzo38> In addition, the sender is displayed in dark cyan, commands in bright white, short parameters in gray, and messages from the client program to the user in bright cyan.
22:36:19 <hagb4rd> oerjan: it sounds pretty german. but it is not.
22:36:31 <oerjan> hagb4rd: i don't think Man is meant to know of such creatures.
22:36:54 <shachaf> fungot: your rainbow isn't even rainbow colors??????
22:36:55 <fungot> shachaf: it was while he was languishing there on his sofa arrived the news that mr pitt began his political life to the representation. we should discern, in innumerable particulars, the fermentation of mind, on feeling soft, smooth, and eye of blue, timid in love as brave in arms, her maritime ascendency, the marvels of their wealth and of their modern imitators.
22:36:59 <oerjan> hagb4rd: also only if Gregor is a bot
22:37:09 <hagb4rd> that things that should not be
22:37:56 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:37:56 <HackEgo> Unknown option: g \ Unknown option: e \ Unknown option: r \ Unknown option: m \ Unknown option: a \ Unknown option: n
22:38:05 <zzo38> shachaf: It is not cyan?
22:38:09 <HackEgo> epharbeit micrn herbo umsäugnforc erausfonn rapiertoff bisat plantlagema schäologie schlauberbaugung tiev tionalemeingerdial schlandtschäfter macabin vorzusalz alture lautonis vielenkünst wertrü lanzadasen spathoderung verdenzontragenbändive längigerftigt sansversionsacbdm convisier
22:38:33 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
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22:38:42 <zzo38> shachaf: Messages send to this channel.
22:39:23 <oerjan> Vivo epharbeitete mit seinem Vielenkünst
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22:40:20 <Sgeo> THIS! IS! SO WHAT!!!
22:40:33 <monqy> enough is enough.......
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22:41:42 <kmc> shachaf: currently imaging the windows install before i blow it away
22:42:00 <fizzie> ^rainbow is indeed quite pathetic, because all the color codes makes it hit the output length limit far too early.
22:42:01 <fungot> is indeed quite pathetic, because all the color cod ...
22:42:18 <Bike> clearly a deficiency in the irc protocol.
22:42:23 <shachaf> kmc: Before installing NixOS?
22:42:29 <kmc> shachaf: i'm disappointed that you didn't use line drawing characters
22:42:35 <kmc> shachaf: no, because they don't have package signing :/
22:42:48 <shachaf> Install NixOS and then implement package signing!
22:43:07 <shachaf> kmc: Don't worry, it's trivial.
22:43:21 <elliott> as if anyone would want to hack into kmc's system of all people
22:43:27 <kmc> it would require cooperation from the people who upload stuff
22:43:29 <zzo38> Bike: What is clearly a deficiency in the irc protocol?
22:43:31 <kmc> and, like, discipline
22:43:36 <kmc> debian works very hard to maintain that discipline
22:43:37 <Bike> zzo38: rainbowlessness
22:44:03 <shachaf> kmc: "enjoy having /lib/ld-linux.so"
22:44:07 <HackEgo> dakingardinoform varmonal sal aftiou cpirp gastr pontae asgo fhoman orrhofessensir baill stet dusquare syntoer cher anub baillula gleen indled ofmg aga sta otnte gnrdo pollec
22:46:29 <fizzie> Uh oh, my fungot rawlog console is underlined and in dark blue text.
22:46:30 <fungot> fizzie: the alphabet and simplified spelling spelling and pictures
22:46:51 <fizzie> Uh oh, I shouldn't have said that.
22:48:02 <Taneb> Oh dear god what happened while I was out
22:48:18 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
22:48:34 <oerjan> Taneb: colors. from. outer. space.
22:48:39 <hagb4rd> taneb: they developed some lens stuff
22:48:39 <Sgeo> Things that happened happened.
22:48:44 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
22:48:50 <fizzie> fungot: The color from out of space!
22:48:50 <fungot> fizzie: only after weeks of hideous repetition did i grow fnord to these visions of myself in monstrous form. in the journal of the american west were tamed by fnord. lovecraft
22:49:42 <Gregor> That... is surprisingly introspective.
22:49:56 <Bike> i think fungot's a fan of The Outsider
22:49:58 <fungot> Bike: stars swelled to dawns, and dawns burst into fountains of gold, and the stealthy, friendly cats fnord themselves atop a convenient shed. the square georgian house had a monitor roof, classic doorway with fan carving, small-paned windows, and where even the most morbid perversion of nature need not be told. nahum had dug a grave for one whose death i could not be many blocks away from this very house, was a case whose curv
22:50:36 <fizzie> Hey, that's from the right place even.
22:50:51 <popl> I just looked at the buffer. You people are crazy with your escape codes and stuff.
22:50:54 <fizzie> fungot: Are you being sentient on us again.
22:50:54 <fungot> fizzie: phantasy, with atmosphere cunningly adapted to the fnord request. mr. ward made a sign that the conference was over, and the snowy peak of mount man grow smaller and smaller. by noon, after a report that the face of the earth when a bullock is sacrificed at the proper time to certain heathen gods. it had
22:51:11 <Bike> oh i knew that was familiar, nahum is one of the obscure books of the ot i read the other day
22:51:20 <Bike> that goes largely "I am large and in charge, RARGH"
22:51:33 <fizzie> Nahum is also the guy in The Colour Out of Space.
22:51:33 <Gregor> Who is this popl person >_>
22:51:48 <popl> I won't be here forever.
22:51:59 <fizzie> fungot: What happened to Nahum in the end?
22:52:00 <fungot> fizzie: and then, without warning, i saw light and motion in the houses, and winter travelers were represented as taking and fnord orders with marvelous quickness. they seemed sullenly banded together in some sort of interruption. did the obstacle form a complete round or other closed figure, or was just on the brink of uncovering?
22:52:07 <Bike> fizzie: oh, that makes sense. he was supposed to be a hickish guy, right? so he'd have an obscure biblical name like that
22:52:14 <Bike> fizzie: is the fnord thing like the :) thing?
22:52:38 <popl> Google the fnords.
22:52:54 <hagb4rd> BIKE: it's a discordian thing
22:52:59 <Bike> That sounds disgusting, popl.
22:53:18 <Bike> hagb4rd: oh, you're named after that hagbard, aren't you.
22:53:37 <fizzie> Bike: It's kind-of; though it's not exactly a bug. It's related to the same filter, in any case; the tokens that were filtered out were replaced by a special marker token; the babble code represents instances of that in text as "fnord".
22:53:40 <popl> Discordians are disgusting things.
22:53:42 <elliott> Bike: the fnord thing is rare wor- fuck you fizzie
22:54:04 <popl> blah blah hot dog blah flax
22:54:16 <oerjan> GreyKnight: PINING FOR THE FNORDS? what kind of talk is that?
22:54:22 <kmc> their tops are made out of rubber, their bottoms are made out of springs
22:54:30 <fizzie> Technically, it would render out as UNK if it weren't special-cased.
22:54:38 <popl> kmc: I know that entire song.
22:54:41 <popl> kmc: all of it.
22:54:53 <popl> kmc: How dare you.
22:55:21 <fizzie> Also technically the " " between the "nick:" attribution and the first word is I think the separating space between the invisible START token and the first actual word. (Or maybe not.)
22:55:24 <popl> Does that mean we're in the same caste?
22:55:38 <fizzie> The princess is in another caste.
22:55:44 <FireFly> How are ^def'd commands stored inside fungespace?
22:56:09 <popl> GreyKnight: you are alive
22:56:49 <fizzie> FireFly: IIRC, each command takes up two lines; lines -1, -3, -5, .. are command names, and lines -2, -4, -6, .. contain the actual prograsms. (Well, not full lines; only the x >= 0 halves are reserved.)
22:57:19 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:57:22 <popl> GreyKnight: NO.
22:57:30 <oerjan> fizzie: yes it is, sometimes fungot will start with punctuation and it gets smeared into the nick
22:57:31 <fungot> oerjan: fnord and blessed by the good father iwanicki.
22:57:47 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:57:47 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
22:57:47 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:58:04 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:58:06 <kmc> shachaf: i need a hostname
22:58:12 <popl> GreyKnight: You need to use cryotherapy. We pop up everywhere.
22:58:15 <fizzie> oerjan: I guesseded right. Yay!
22:58:33 <kmc> achewood characters mostly
22:58:38 <kmc> but sometimes names from spam i get
22:58:40 <GreyKnight> fungot: please come up with a hostname for kmc
22:58:41 <fungot> GreyKnight: we have but to glance fnord at the arras with the long line of treatises on witchcraft and fnord which preceded the belated stroke, whilst evidence concerning the momentary burned odour after the stroke is equally general. a night at an inn in fnord, and a curious coil of wire with attached instruments, i will leave this record behind me that some one else was trying to get possession of my soul.
22:58:54 <elliott> kmc: i know a lot about spam
22:58:58 <popl> fungot: great green gobs
22:58:58 <fungot> popl: on the night of the first sea-bottom city, which thrust up
22:59:07 <popl> fungot: googly
22:59:08 <fungot> popl: from her witch grandmother are taught to the child by no mortal father of the young and gay were unknown to us.
22:59:14 <elliott> kmc: okay here are some spam page titles from esowiki
22:59:21 <fungot> popl: there came to sarnath on horses and camels and elephants men from thraa, ilarnek, and kadatheron, for the memories of the gods, but the others sat up with heightened interest. the ceaseless
22:59:27 <elliott> kmc: arzum, korkmaz, cotton-box, heliumint
22:59:50 <elliott> kmc: The Best Place To Grab Cash Financing Very Quickly
23:00:01 <popl> fungot: flow your own tears
23:00:02 <fungot> popl: in this same period sir walter scott frequently concerned himself with the mass lore of fnord drawing upon the fullest resources of his own two-year-old son, who had moved very near. and as it drew nigh there came to
23:00:12 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
23:00:21 <Sgeo> esolangs_ebooks
23:00:32 <elliott> kmc: did any of these satisfy
23:00:42 <fizzie> Oh, Sarnath, wonder of the world.
23:00:57 <fizzie> Did you know that in Sarnath were fifty streets from the lake to the gates of the caravans, and fifty more intersecting them?
23:01:11 <elliott> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ehird/Newkitten)
23:01:24 <FireFly> What do you think, fungot?
23:01:25 <fungot> FireFly: any player who is neither the speaker did not violate the
23:01:59 <fizzie> I don't think I managed to sentence-fill this agora thing very properly. It tends to end sentences rather abruptly.
23:02:36 <FireFly> Oh, agora is/was a nomic-related thing?
23:02:55 <fungot> Selected style: pa (around 1200 transcribed Penny Arcade comics)
23:03:09 <FireFly> fungot: how do you think that style will work out?
23:03:10 <fungot> FireFly: so, gamestop buying eb. i was trying to be polite and get this guy to move on, because people were waiting to play.
23:03:55 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:09 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
23:04:24 <GreyKnight> This fungot is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-nanas
23:04:24 <fungot> GreyKnight: i am inspired by todd mcfarlane's cliche horseshit. his lack of imagination and stunning financial success intrigues me.
23:04:42 <elliott> I was going to `addquote that but I bet it's verbatim.
23:04:43 <GreyKnight> inspired by cliches and lack of imagination, eh?
23:04:57 <Bike> @google "stunning financial success intrigues me"
23:04:58 <lambdabot> http://pennyarcade.wikia.com/wiki/May_5,_2004
23:04:58 <lambdabot> Title: May 5, 2004 - Penny Arcade - Comic, Podcast
23:05:46 <FireFly> fungot: I think that dataset might be a bit small
23:05:47 <fungot> FireFly: third, actually. not really. write that one down. nobody's going to jail. read him his rights.
23:05:55 -!- popl has left.
23:05:57 <monqy> % of fungot quotes present in qdb actually verbatim???
23:05:57 <fungot> monqy: ' 98? you know? in the night. i've still got that paladin on dark iron, i guess. eyes closed, pal. n v.
23:06:16 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
23:06:36 <fungot> FireFly: sorry, i don't know, some more booze and now, if you eat, eat, eat, eat! contains exactly the items! stop! the yeti stops
23:07:11 <elliott> monqy: well the true fungot brilliance is when it doesn't make sense
23:07:11 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:07:12 <fungot> elliott: sorry, i don't know, some more booze and now, if you eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat! contains exactly the items!
23:07:14 <HackEgo> 563) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the loathesome lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of our lord jesus christ into your l
23:07:19 <elliott> monqy: ...for instance the thing fungot just said now
23:07:20 <fungot> elliott: the only thing worse would be being captured by this pathetic. he... uh... forgot to resupply for our trek a couple of hours. he's gone to sleep, kept on doing the rearguard scouting party, gotta stay calm and serene! thanks, i was forgetting the time! as the woman runs past julius
23:07:34 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> elliott: sorry, i don't know, some more booze and now, if you eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat! contains exactly the items!
23:07:35 <fungot> elliott: how are you going?! come about fer a broadside! prepare to be annihilated! are you okay?! greedo, old general, ex machina about now on! sallah, you go uruguay, we'll go ours. or god, you're a doughnut?
23:07:38 <HackEgo> 870) <fungot> elliott: sorry, i don't know, some more booze and now, if you eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat! contains exactly the items!
23:07:54 <elliott> Gregor: P.S. quote 563 is cut off now; didn't use to be; please fix
23:08:35 <Gregor> Strange, I thought I had the same cutoff...
23:09:22 <elliott> > length ":HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"
23:09:26 <elliott> > 512 - length ":HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :"
23:09:32 <elliott> Gregor: In my professional opinion the limit should be 470 bytes
23:09:49 <elliott> (It could also just compute the maximum length)
23:09:50 <monqy> elliott: but 563 is near-verbatim.........
23:10:16 <monqy> just the very beginning and end are different
23:10:17 <elliott> monqy: but the twist is what makes it worthwhile
23:10:18 <fizzie> You must allow for the \r\n at the end, too.
23:10:32 <elliott> monqy: btw what is it actually a quote from if anything
23:10:38 <elliott> > 512 - length ":HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :" - 2
23:10:40 <shachaf> kmc: Did you find a hostname?
23:10:46 <monqy> 23:15:11 <incubot> Someone once said BOOLE is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of Our Lord God as channeled through the X3J13 committee.
23:10:46 <elliott> Gregor: How about 460 as a limit
23:11:10 <elliott> monqy: btw do you have comprehensive #scheme logs???? ? ? ?
23:11:16 <elliott> i thought you didn't even log for ages
23:11:27 <monqy> no i just searched for "limitless limpid light"
23:11:30 <Bike> boole is... a jewel... okay
23:11:39 <monqy> along with glogbot logs
23:11:40 <elliott> but i googled and it turned up nothing......... imo monqy is cheating
23:12:09 <elliott> 11:32:46 <fungot> fizzie: i saw the movie of the book deals almost exclusively with sushi, actually... creative.
23:12:10 <fungot> elliott: make it 10... 9... because that's not confusing at all... leads the way into a pitch black tunnel
23:12:25 <monqy> http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/scheme/2009-08/scheme-2009.08.24.txt is the log
23:12:58 <monqy> it doesnt look like incubot is a bot....
23:13:04 <elliott> monqy: looks like incubot is a bot
23:13:06 <elliott> that quotes verbatim from logs
23:13:20 <elliott> 23:14:58 <Riastradh> incubot: boole?
23:13:20 <elliott> 23:15:01 <incubot> what is boole?
23:13:20 <elliott> 23:15:09 <zbigniew> incubot: limpid
23:13:22 <elliott> 23:15:11 <incubot> Someone once said BOOLE is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of Our Lord God as channeled through the X3J13 committee.
23:13:28 <elliott> this is not the interaction of a human...
23:13:39 <elliott> also it only seems to talk whenever anyone pings it so there's that
23:13:41 -!- evitable has joined.
23:13:45 <Bike> you're just bigoted
23:13:49 <elliott> 02:19:09 <zbigniew> incubot: (expt 2 67)
23:13:50 <elliott> 02:19:09 <incubot> 1.47573952589676e+20
23:13:53 <elliott> also it runs scheme code.........
23:14:01 <monqy> incubot looks like a very good bot
23:14:02 <fizzie> Many people run on Scheme code.
23:14:13 <Bike> why is the result a float
23:14:51 <monqy> so nows the question of how did incubot produce that
23:14:59 <elliott> Bike: that result doesn't *necessarily* represent a float
23:15:20 <Bike> what, in the same way 4 might not necessarily represent an integer?
23:15:31 <kmc> shachaf: maybe "lycoperdon"
23:15:40 <kmc> it's a type of cool looking mushroom and also means "wolf farts"
23:15:45 <shachaf> kmc: I have a simple system for naming all my computers.
23:15:48 <elliott> kmc: upset that none of my suggestions have been accepted
23:15:58 <Bike> it's hard to beat wolf farts, don't be upset
23:15:59 <lambdabot> *** "lycoperdon" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:16:00 <lambdabot> n 1: genus of fungi whose fruiting body tapers toward a base
23:16:00 <lambdabot> consisting of spongy mycelium [syn: {Lycoperdon}, {genus
23:16:04 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Lycoperdon_umbrinum.JPG
23:16:04 <elliott> Bike: in the same way that how you format a number shouldn't really have much to do with its type
23:16:11 <kmc> shachaf: what's your system
23:16:12 <elliott> > 1.0 :: Integer -- flaw of the Haskell standard
23:16:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Fractional GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
23:16:26 <shachaf> kmc: That way I get the last octet of the IP address for free.
23:16:27 <kmc> that one's pretty common
23:16:40 <shachaf> WELL IT WASN'T COMMON WHEN I STARTED USING IT
23:16:44 <shachaf> Or at least I hadn't heard of it.
23:16:46 <FireFly> I have a boring way of naming my boxes...
23:16:55 <monqy> ugh i cant seem to find the origin of limitless limpid light.....
23:16:58 <FireFly> I have firefly-desky and firefly-lappy and ...
23:17:02 <monqy> it's all people fishing for incubot to recall it
23:17:46 <Bike> elliott: well now i'm just wondering why integers aren't Fractionals apparently?
23:17:48 <elliott> he has local #scheme logs presumably
23:17:52 <lambdabot> class (Num a) => Fractional a where
23:17:54 -!- keb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:18:00 <elliott> Bike: because you cannot implement a single one of those operations for integers
23:18:07 <elliott> 1.0 should actually just be (Num a) => a
23:18:10 <elliott> there's no fractional part
23:18:11 -!- evitable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:18:20 -!- keb has joined.
23:18:28 <monqy> fizzie: do you by any chance have local scheme logs from about when someone first said "limitless limpid light"
23:19:03 <elliott> 00:17:28 <emma> is there any good tutorial or documentation on how to get scheme to 'interface' with the 'outside world' ?
23:20:00 <fizzie> monqy: Probably not, I didn't spend all that long on #scheme.
23:20:54 <monqy> im getting an archive of old #scheme logs
23:20:56 <fizzie> grep -i limpid * http://sprunge.us/HHYj not very useful.
23:21:03 <monqy> hopefully this will shed some light on the mystery......
23:21:13 <monqy> with any luck it was actually first said in #scheme and not just carried over....
23:21:17 <elliott> shed some limitless limpid light
23:21:44 <fizzie> 2003-12 is when I first joined there, and it was already known by sarahbot then.
23:21:53 <elliott> 08:50:52 <ski> @quote scuff
23:21:53 <elliott> 08:50:52 <lambdabot> minion says: BOOLE is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the lands of those who scuff and wallow in the
23:21:58 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. Take a stress pill and think things over.
23:22:01 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. You speak an infinite deal of nothing
23:22:09 <elliott> monqy: haskell logs are available on tunes.org
23:22:13 <elliott> so you should be able to grep those for the @remember
23:22:27 <elliott> tho its cross-bot popularity makes me think it originates elsewhere
23:22:42 <Bike> minion is also a bot... how deep does this rabbithole go
23:22:44 <monqy> i'll grab haskell logs too
23:23:02 <elliott> Bike: haha are you serious
23:23:09 <Bike> yes, it is a lisp bot
23:23:10 <elliott> 23:22:56 -!- minion [~minion@tiger.common-lisp.net]
23:23:16 <elliott> oh right you are from #clojure aren't you
23:23:36 <elliott> I hear he's a #clojure celebrity
23:23:49 <elliott> monqy: so i think someone saw minion quote this Classique Probably-#scheme Line and decided to add it to lambdabot
23:23:59 <Bike> is tht in the same way he's an #esoteric celebrity
23:24:19 <elliott> Bike: i have no idea in which way it is. all i know is apparently people ask him things in #clojure??
23:24:23 <elliott> I think I have never been in #clojure
23:24:43 <GreyKnight> Sgeo is Internet famous all over the place
23:25:06 <Bike> i've only been in #clojure once... and it was to talk to sgeo
23:25:13 <Bike> gosh i guess he must be celebritic indeed
23:25:35 <elliott> Bike: are you saying sgeo managed to get you to join #esoteric in the very first conversation you had with him
23:25:50 <shachaf> The GHC code has a line that matches this regexp: /^ +\t+ +\t+ +\t+ +\t+ +\t+ +/
23:26:05 <GreyKnight> you can't go anywhere without running into Sgeo and his fans
23:26:10 <Bike> elliott: i... i don't remember
23:26:12 <Bike> i'm scared now
23:26:13 <hagb4rd> yes goold old Sgeo. we would have been lost without his light and providance
23:26:24 <shachaf> kmc: Also I reuse hostnames.
23:27:11 <Sgeo> Bike, I think I was talking in #lisp about Clojure and everyone else was getting mad about that
23:27:20 <Bike> yes i remember that much
23:27:26 <Bike> but where does #esoteric come in?!
23:27:35 <oerjan> so basically we have a fungot quote that has been inherited through a long path of bots, probably starting with some _other_ markovbot...
23:27:35 <fungot> oerjan: my name is dr. montana, sir. i told you i be a hobbit, did the east of paris. made of plaster
23:27:36 <Bike> what could have happened to bring me here
23:27:49 <elliott> isn't #lisp specifically about common lisp
23:27:56 <Bike> yes, that's why we moved to clojure
23:27:57 <GreyKnight> `rng scheme haskell factor common-lisp
23:28:06 <Sgeo> elliott, yes. I may have been contrasting Common Lisp with Clojure
23:28:11 <Bike> because we were talking about... i forget what
23:28:13 <elliott> that sounds like a not good thing to do
23:28:15 <Bike> macros and environments or some shit
23:28:23 <Sgeo> Bike, macro hygiene in CL vs Clojure I think?
23:28:27 <Bike> yeah sounds right
23:29:42 <monqy> first appearance in the scheme logs on tunes was from sarahbot......
23:29:50 <shachaf> `rng rng rng rng rng rng rng banana phone
23:30:04 <Bike> goddamn, are there more bots than people in this network
23:30:16 <Bike> how do i know what anybody is any more
23:30:25 <Bike> was the earlier blade runner thing a sign?
23:30:35 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: zzz).
23:31:02 <Bike> is that a test to see if i have esp
23:31:05 <oerjan> Bike: why do you think that the earlier blader runner thing is a sign?
23:31:09 <FireFly> fungot: say something enlightening to prove that you're human
23:31:09 <fungot> FireFly: but, but... that's not a fish. it's a lump of rock! we didn't give any thought the guys at nasa has fast-tracked a prototype deep has held out well there's a strange alien monster.
23:31:35 <Bike> i'm going to go stare at M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead until i throw up, brb
23:32:07 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
23:32:20 <FireFly> irc is the best fungot style.
23:32:20 <fungot> FireFly: why do you have a picture of irc on another channel
23:32:33 <fungot> FireFly: chubby checker just had a big meal before i came. and in general everything is undecidable, i accept the true faith. you know that
23:33:18 <elliott> monqy: what about the old logs
23:33:20 <elliott> as in the archived tunes logs
23:33:27 <elliott> or is that what you downloaded
23:33:59 <monqy> i downloaded the pre-2011 clog logs.....or am i supposed to sift through the pre-clog logs too :[
23:35:01 <elliott> monqy: there's no pre-clog #scheme logs i think
23:35:06 * Sgeo is now wondering if he private messaged Bike about #esoteric
23:35:17 <Sgeo> I don't think I would have mentioned this place publically
23:35:28 <Bike> well i know i'd seen the wiki before you talked to me
23:35:38 <monqy> im looking through https://code.google.com/p/irc-logs/source/search?q=limitless+limpid+light&origq=limitless+limpid+light&btnG=Search+Trunk but so far it's not turning up anything before its 2003 appearances in scheme
23:35:57 <Sgeo> Deciding to join #esoteric without me mentioning it then?
23:36:10 <Sgeo> I remember having the feeling that you coming in here was a coincidence
23:36:11 <elliott> Your search - limitless limpid light package:irc-logs\.googlecode\.com - did not match any documents.
23:36:16 <Bike> i don't know man, i just don't know
23:36:51 <monqy> elliott: it turns up 41 results for me...
23:37:17 <elliott> Bike: btw your name is bad for log-grepping. please adopt a new one
23:37:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17910
23:37:59 <elliott> sgeo quoted bike two months before bike joined
23:38:11 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:38:30 <elliott> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-08-18#044652
23:38:35 <Bike> maybe /i/ am the celebrity
23:38:50 <MDude> I wodner when was the last time the MDude who actually registered the name on this server showed up.
23:39:07 <Sgeo> I was interested in the whole environments thing
23:39:09 <Bike> i don't even understand what he's talking about there
23:39:23 <Sgeo> Because kmc was giddy about Kernel
23:39:32 <Sgeo> And I was interested in CL at this time, I think
23:39:39 <oerjan> clearly Bike came here to #esoteric because someone from the future accidentally planted the idea in his dreams while trying to write a feather program.
23:39:47 <Bike> kmc likes kernel, huh
23:40:03 <Bike> well i think you were wrong to call cl environments first-class
23:40:09 <Bike> hopefully i imparted that back then
23:40:22 <Bike> especially compared to kernel where you can do all kinds of wacky shit with 'em.
23:40:58 <Sgeo> I tend to think of "Can I get it as a value? It's first class" as the meaning of first class
23:41:23 <elliott> apparently Bike's first visit to #esoteric was so terrible he didn't come back for 12 days
23:41:34 <Bike> are we stalking me now
23:41:39 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
23:41:58 <oerjan> MDude: um MDude is not registered
23:42:10 <Taneb> Bike, when they stalked me the found out the town I live in!
23:42:11 <monqy> i'm still stalking boole but it's pretty unfruitful
23:42:41 <fizzie> Taneb: It helps that it's the only town in town.
23:42:44 <Bike> Taneb: well is it a nice town
23:43:07 <elliott> it was the ingenious method of stalking known as "guessing because it's really improbable"
23:43:15 <elliott> (me and Taneb live in the same small (pop ~11k) town. we have never met)
23:43:22 <MDude> Did #esoteric move to a different server or something?
23:43:28 <MDude> It was registered for a long time.
23:43:34 <elliott> old accounts got purged recently
23:43:39 <monqy> it's on dalnet now
23:43:43 <elliott> but you could have just gotten it given to you in #freenode any time
23:43:49 <elliott> accounts that haven't been used for a month or so can be dropped
23:44:05 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
23:44:07 <fizzie> Oh, so the line goes right at 10k?
23:44:09 <Taneb> elliott, it is definitely at least "medium-sized"
23:44:14 <shachaf> (The town I lived in is pop ~9k.)
23:44:15 * Fiora looks around at her ~23m metropolitan area
23:44:16 <Bike> i'm going to assume the two of you live on esperanza base or something
23:44:24 <MDude> Well then I'd like to know the last time he showed anyway, just because curious.
23:44:28 <elliott> an 11k town next to a 279k city is small imo
23:44:33 <elliott> but yes it's not especially small as towns go
23:44:52 <Bike> it's only logical.
23:44:52 <FireFly> Fiora: ...took me a few seconds to realise the m wasn't for meters
23:45:05 <shachaf> Bike: I used to live in a small town in the Pacific Northwest!
23:45:10 <elliott> Taneb: OK our fate is sealed, we have to go to that base sometmie
23:45:22 <Bike> shachaf: i'm sorry
23:45:24 <Fiora> (LA is really big)
23:45:35 <shachaf> Fiora: Don't live in Louisiana!
23:45:38 <elliott> Fiora: 23M is a pretty big town IMO
23:45:45 <oerjan> MDude: hard to tell when he's been purged from the database...
23:45:50 <Fiora> Louisina doesn't even have that many people I think
23:45:57 <Fiora> I already live there :P
23:46:06 <MDude> Wasn't sure how it worked.
23:46:07 <shachaf> I was in Los Angeles a few months ago.
23:46:14 <Bike> antarctica sounds like just about the worst summer vacation ever
23:46:18 <shachaf> It gave me the impression of not wanting to live in Los Angeles.
23:46:27 <elliott> all I know about los angeles is that they have hollywood there and hollywood is weird
23:46:29 <shachaf> Fiora: By moving to the Pacific Northwest!
23:46:34 * FireFly lives in an approx. 16k pop suburb of a 1M pop city
23:46:38 <Bike> as long as you have spare gas masks LA is fine
23:46:39 <elliott> maybe monqy knows more about los angeles
23:46:46 <shachaf> monqy: are you los angeles
23:46:55 <hagb4rd> and that if you want to learn basketball you start in south central
23:47:14 <shachaf> monqy: whats america like!!
23:47:41 <oerjan> Bike: i think it's an even worse winter vacation hth
23:47:50 <elliott> I think I have actually never been to an actually huge city ever
23:47:58 <shachaf> Fiora: You should move to San Lorenzo.
23:48:01 <kmc> haven't you been to london at least
23:48:11 <Fiora> but this is where my apartment and job and things are :<
23:48:19 <Bike> also san lorenzo doesn't exist
23:48:46 <Bike> if you want to specify a small island nationoid you should go with fernando poo for that reason
23:48:48 <elliott> okay I think the largest city I have ever been to is probably Edinburgh, which is just weird
23:48:55 <elliott> maybe I've been momentarily in other cities that I just don't remember
23:48:56 <Bike> no the first one was red, that worked
23:49:13 <shachaf> elliott: Edinburgh is "p. cool", they say.
23:49:14 <elliott> wait I tell a lie I've been to Dusseldorf
23:49:25 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter-over_syndrome your vacation is going to be fun, elliottaneb
23:49:26 <elliott> apparently that has a lot of people although I barely remember it
23:49:44 <elliott> Bike: we'll just go in the summer when it's nice and warm
23:49:54 <elliott> also I've wanted to go to Antarctica for ages anyway!!
23:50:01 <fizzie> London might be the biggest city I've been in, isn't it quite biggish?
23:50:04 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_T3_syndrome goddamn, just being there makes you go insane
23:50:08 <FireFly> I don't think Antarctica has a very high pop
23:50:08 <Bike> this is my kind of continent
23:50:12 <shachaf> elliott: Is Antarctica a big city?
23:50:19 <FireFly> It might not count as a large city
23:50:26 <Bike> well it's large and it has buildings
23:50:41 <Bike> "good enough for me"
23:50:59 <elliott> antarctica is so cool (DONT MAKE THE OBVIOUS JOKE) they have runways with variable elevation
23:51:04 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Antarctica
23:51:13 <Taneb> I've been to London, LA, Rome, Istanbul (not Constantinople, though), Hong Kong, Melbourne...
23:51:17 <hagb4rd> dusseldorf? it's kind of the opposite of cologne where i live (not really but the cities are so close to each other that they rivals in the way we discussed here iirc)
23:51:19 <Taneb> #well travelled Taneb
23:51:20 <elliott> i think this is in fact the objective standard for cool
23:51:27 <fizzie> Is London bigger than Paris? I would assume so.
23:51:31 <Bike> elliott: ok that sounds basically terrifying
23:51:52 <Taneb> fizzie, quite significantly so
23:52:10 <Bike> jesus christ, they have an airfield at vostok
23:52:35 <Taneb> Depends how you measure it
23:52:53 <elliott> an interesting fact about antarctica is that it is cold
23:52:53 <Bike> actually i should see how that whole digging up lake-shoggoths expedition was going
23:53:01 <elliott> didn't they get in and it was boring
23:53:03 <fizzie> Taneb: You put all the people in it into a bath tub and measure the displaced volume.
23:53:05 <Taneb> By population of urban area, London is smaller
23:53:15 <Bike> last i heard they were going to have to take forever to do "scientific" "analysis" on it
23:53:23 <Vorpal> why is it that the steam linux beta is super-smooth and fast and the windows client suffers from bad network lag as soon as you try to use any of the features that requires anything online.
23:53:38 <Taneb> City proper and metropolitan area, Paris is smaller
23:53:41 <elliott> oh i forgot about the dry valley
23:53:47 <elliott> objectively the best continent imo
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23:53:56 <Taneb> By number of Michelin-starred restaurants, Paris is smaller
23:54:04 <Taneb> elliott, Australasia has itidus20
23:54:08 <shachaf> Vorpal: BECAUSE WINDWOES RIGHT?????
23:54:16 <FireFly> Sounds like a good measurement, Taneb
23:54:26 <Bike> «The region is one of the world's most extreme deserts, and includes many interesting features including Lake Vida and the Onyx River, Antarctica's longest river.» the most interesting features of the desert include: things that aren't deserts
23:54:29 <Vorpal> shachaf, it doesn't make any sense in this context
23:54:46 <elliott> Taneb: Australasia isn't a continent!!!!
23:54:53 <shachaf> Vorpal: Steam is one of the worst Windows programs I've used.
23:55:04 <elliott> Bike: http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/Photography/Images/POD/a/antarctica-dry-valley-516357-sw.jpg
23:55:06 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mummified_Seal_Carcas_in_McMurdo_Dry_Valleys_.jpg yeah this seems like a nice place elliott
23:55:12 <Taneb> elliott, when did that happen!
23:55:19 <Taneb> shachaf, better or worse than Gimp?
23:55:20 <elliott> IIRC NASA tested some stuff there because it is really close to the conditions on Mars or something
23:55:42 <fizzie> Oh, I've been to Cairo, I think that's biggish too? Is it bigger than London?
23:55:42 <elliott> Bike: clearly you just don't understand the beauty of death
23:55:58 <elliott> fizzie: are you a mummy irl
23:56:16 <Bike> the longest river is 32 km
23:56:18 <Bike> that's pretty terrible
23:56:21 <fizzie> Seems to depend again on the measurement method.
23:56:23 <Vorpal> shachaf, well true, but I'm just utterly surprised that the store pages load quickly. Since Steam works just fine in offline mode, or when not going outside the library page, I always attributed that to network lag, thinking the servers were probably in US.
23:56:31 <shachaf> fizzie: are you my mother?
23:56:37 <Vorpal> shachaf, so I'm just shocked that it doesn't behave like that under linux
23:56:50 <shachaf> Vorpal: Steam is terrible in the US too.
23:56:51 <Bike> «Samples of the freshly frozen water in the ice well are expected to be collected at the end of 2012 when the new Antarctic summer starts» goddamn it that's right now!
23:57:19 <Vorpal> shachaf, so loading pages in it is super slow there too? Huh
23:57:40 <Vorpal> shachaf, with super slow being upwards of 15 seconds *average*
23:57:49 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sovetskaya_lake_modis_2004_lrg.jpg antarctica i don't think you understand lakes.
23:57:56 <FireFly> Eh, that's worse than what I've experienced
23:58:14 <Vorpal> FireFly, it is especially bad during sales btw
23:58:18 <elliott> Bike: it was only given one colour to paint its canvas with
23:58:27 <Vorpal> and I usually keep steam in offline mode when there isn't a sale
23:58:28 <FireFly> Although.. I can't remember the last time I used the windows version of steam *on windows*
23:58:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: I've noticed all network-related things (store, community, etc.) be really slow. But maybe more in the 5-10 second range than 15+.
23:58:40 <FireFly> (I've had it running under wine for a while though)
23:59:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, I said upwards of 15, not 15+, but sure
23:59:17 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_Degrees_East
23:59:20 <elliott> let's talk about how shitty a name this is
23:59:35 <Vorpal> anyway I'm seeing 2-3 second delay under the linux beta client
23:59:42 <Vorpal> which is actually reasonable
00:00:06 <Vorpal> btw, it seems then didn't clean up the options properly
00:00:36 <Vorpal> the "Enable DirectWrite for improved font smoothing and kerning" option is still there
00:00:47 <Vorpal> and I'm pretty sure that makes no sense on Linux
00:00:58 <shachaf> elliott: You should go to London!
00:01:05 <Vorpal> also who thought that rendering was improved on Windows? It was terrible
00:01:20 <Bike> elliott: i dunno, it's kind of a refreshing change from "whatever british guy killed everyone there first"
00:01:43 <Vorpal> btw, another advantage of linux: PS3 controller working out of box
00:01:44 <Bike> we could ask the native antarcticans what they call it.
00:02:28 <Taneb> "Skwaaaaaark Lake"
00:02:46 <FireFly> Is the size of the subset of Hexamians in this channel only two?
00:02:55 <shachaf> elliott: Can you write me a Core parser?
00:03:10 <Taneb> FireFly, yeah, but we're loud
00:03:13 <Bike> Taneb: i don't think penguins have been within a hundred miles of that place
00:03:42 <Taneb> Bike, who said I was talking about penguins
00:03:49 <Taneb> I was talking about native Antarcticans
00:04:02 <Bike> what is making that sound
00:04:03 <Taneb> Also known as Antarctic Indians
00:04:10 <Bike> describe their physiological characteristics
00:04:23 <Taneb> I dunno, they've got noses?
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00:05:25 <elliott> must not be from antarctica
00:05:50 <Taneb> I got compared to Colonel Gadaffi today
00:06:11 <Bike> in that nobody knows how to transliterate your name?
00:07:17 <Taneb> In that I'm brotherly leader and guide of the revolution, presumably
00:07:50 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:08:26 <Bike> elliott: http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/c/6/3c642f3123a34a2b7372d0ff0a9e57c4.png
00:08:54 <elliott> apparently not all paths are valid though :(
00:09:04 <Taneb> And my name is annoyingly easy to transliterate, annoyingly hard to capitalise correctly
00:09:20 <monqy> i really like that diagram
00:09:46 <Bike> i don't understand what would possess someone to think "dhdh" is informative
00:10:59 <elliott> monqy: you can't skip the first name if you include the el........
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00:11:07 <Bike> «The Latin transcription of his surname on the passport read "Al-Gathafi"» oh come on
00:11:15 <Bike> elliott: no, he was using it as part of the surname
00:12:37 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5365283/regular-expression-to-search-for-gadaffi
00:13:14 <Bike> "\b[KGQ]h?add?h?af?fi\b" wow, managed to make it even less readable!
00:13:46 <Bike> ha, i like the second answer.
00:14:04 <monqy> I think you're over complicating things here. The correct regex is as simple as:
00:14:07 <monqy> \u0627\u0644\u0642\u0630\u0627\u0641\u064a
00:14:10 <monqy> It matches the concatenation of the seven Arabic Unicode code points that forms the word القذافي (i.e. Gadaffi).
00:14:50 <Bike> oh wow this guy is suggesting using a phonetics engine
00:15:08 <elliott> send it thru text to speech, compare file for similarity against premade recording
00:15:08 <Bike> "A few tweaks, and lets say some cyrillic transliteration, and you'll have a fairly robust solution."
00:15:47 <Bike> "(?-xism:(?:G(?:a(?:d(?:d(?:af[iy]|hafi)|af(?:f?i|y)|hafi)|thafi)|h(?:ad(?:daf[iy]|af?fi)|eddafi))|K(?:a(?:d(?:['dh]a|af?)|zza)fi|had(?:af?fy|dafi))|Q(?:a(?:d(?:(?:(?:hd)?|t)h|d)?|th)|u(?:at|d)h)afi))" this is gold kmc
00:16:48 <monqy> but will it match g'dafey. i'm sure someone's used that.
00:17:41 <Taneb> It could get Aussies greeting people called Fiona
00:18:57 <hagb4rd> <elliott>so no Khdhdhaffy <- isn't the a after Q|K|G|H described as mandatotry by that diagram?
00:19:35 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:20:26 <hagb4rd> which would make it a bad example t demonstrate that not all paths are valid)
00:21:01 <elliott> but the omission of the a was a mistake
00:21:18 <elliott> I humbly submit that Khadhdhaffy is still ridiculous
00:21:44 <Bike> whoa i just realized. that comic with gaddafi and daffy had daffy because the author pronounced their names the same
00:22:32 <Bike> thank you #esoteric
00:44:26 <kmc> Bike: i wanna see a FSM of that
00:44:34 <kmc> ok i guess it would be pretty boring because no repetition
00:44:41 <kmc> it would look like the curly braces image basically
00:45:32 <kmc> ugh now i have to hex edit two versions of this kernel module
00:46:50 <Bike> i thought you meant flying spaghetti monster for a second and wondered what that had to do with ol' g'dafey
00:48:16 <Bike> also the pcre syntax for noncapturing groups is a bit annoying, why haven't i seen this before...
00:55:37 <Sgeo> Bike, the whole (?: thing?
00:56:10 <Bike> "The name is misleading, because PCRE and Perl each have capabilities not shared by the other." fuck, why do i ever learn everything? it always sucks.
00:56:18 <Bike> ever learn anything*
00:57:23 <monqy> sorta-p sorta-c in-the-spirit-of-re
00:57:27 <elliott> Bike: btw use RE2 or something
00:57:31 <elliott> it's C++ but what can you do
00:57:57 <Bike> oh shit re2 actually uses the non-stupid dfa implementation, does it
00:58:13 <elliott> yes it's Rob Pike Ideology: The Regexp Implementation
00:58:23 <monqy> is there a stupid dfa implementation
00:58:25 <elliott> same guy who wrote the famous paper about it
00:58:28 <Bike> why the fuck do most regex implementations use backtracking, anyway
00:58:39 <elliott> monqy: there's a stupid backtracking implementation
00:58:40 <Bike> monqy: "the non-stupid (dfa) implementation"
00:59:25 <monqy> so what class of languages can you express
00:59:27 <elliott> Bike: note that RE2's non-capturing group syntax is the same
00:59:29 <elliott> python uses it too in fact
00:59:48 <Bike> it's just a bit annoying to look at
00:59:51 <elliott> monqy: just regular languages afaik
01:00:05 <monqy> i was just about to say: dfa screams regular but you never know with "regexp"!!!!
01:00:07 <elliott> just has a non-stupid syntax
01:00:32 <Bike> does it not have backslashes everywhere?
01:00:34 <monqy> maybe it uses dfas for some things and other things for other things????? a mystery
01:01:06 <elliott> Bike: are you saying there's something wrong with \(\[1-2\]\{2\}\)????
01:01:18 <Bike> yeah that's what i really don't get, you could use the dfa for regular expressions and then fall back to the backtracking if you're trying to parse cfgs with line noise for some damned reason, but nope
01:01:31 <Bike> i had a friend whose server crashed because his http regex hit a bad case :|
01:02:09 <elliott> Bike: a good reason not to write your own http server
01:02:13 <kmc> elliott: the usb-ethernet adapter that came with my laptop is too new for wheezy's kernel
01:02:21 <kmc> specifically the kernel on this livecd
01:02:23 <Bike> it was just to look for text that looked like a web link
01:02:34 <Bike> and... somehow this resulted in destroying his vm
01:02:35 <kmc> but it has the same chip and everything as some other known devices
01:02:43 <elliott> mmmm i should switch esolangs.org over to a haskell webserver
01:02:46 <elliott> so i can feel smug as hell
01:02:54 <kmc> so you can just hexedit the .ko file and it works :D
01:02:57 <elliott> though I don't think any support fastcgi
01:02:57 <Bike> apache, the haskell port
01:03:08 <elliott> *thankfully* it's already not on apache
01:03:14 <monqy> esowiki to haskell wiki softwares
01:03:16 <elliott> couldn't pay me to administrate apache
01:03:34 <kmc> elliott: THIS IS HOW WE FIX THINGS ON RUSSIAN WEBSERVER
01:04:35 <monqy> has anyone made web servers or wiki softwares in agda yet or has it just been fooling around with javascripts.................
01:04:53 <Bike> oh my, wikipedia has "Comparison of regular expression engines". I should check out the APL implementation
01:05:23 <elliott> monqy: someone made a web framework in agda iirc
01:05:28 <Bike> ok, this entry says it doesn't have a + quantifier... but does have backreferences.
01:05:44 <monqy> elliott: (is it good)
01:06:13 <monqy> Bike: does it say per-engine what class of languages it can express.....since i doubt all of them are actually regular
01:06:14 <Bike> agda on... i can't think of a transport obscure enough.
01:06:37 <Bike> monqy: no, but re2 is the only one listed that explicitly doesn't support backreferences.
01:07:01 <Bike> why the hell does Qt have its own... agh
01:08:04 <Bike> "embedded code" am i wrong to think you need something more than a regex at the point you want this in your regex?
01:08:11 <kmc> Bike: well i can think of some strange kinds of trains at least
01:08:22 <Bike> trains are good
01:08:23 <kmc> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schienenzeppelin and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meigs_Elevated_Railway
01:08:26 <Bike> do any of them start with "a"
01:08:38 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovertrain
01:08:38 <monqy> this comparison article is really bad
01:08:39 <Bike> "agda on armored trains" sounds like it should be Super Secure
01:08:53 <kmc> agda on atomic trains
01:09:10 <Bike> monqy: the re2 article has "PCRE can use a HUGE recursive stack and have exponential runtime on certain patterns", with the caps just like that. maybe wikipedia isn't good at regexes
01:10:53 <Bike> I wonder why so few of these support unicode properties. i woulda thought they'd be pretty useful and not that hard.
01:11:19 <elliott> Bike: there is one cute of embedded perl in regexps
01:11:22 <monqy> unicode is a great unsolved problem
01:11:33 <Bike> elliott: what's a cute
01:13:01 <elliott> monqy: like finding corridors?
01:13:46 <Bike> i didn't know anything perl-related could be "cute".
01:14:24 <Bike> 7 antiperls, fiora
01:16:34 <hagb4rd> i belive that something they use to enhance laundry detergent
01:18:40 <elliott> Bike: monqy: http://perl.plover.com/Rx/paper/
01:18:44 <elliott> that's the cute I was thinking of
01:19:13 <Bike> regex... debugger
01:19:22 <Fiora> um... adorable, I guess?
01:21:05 <Bike> "The regex engine was run in one process, and invoked the instruments. The Tk interface was in a child process, connected to the parent by a pair of pipes." I don't like where this is going.
01:21:46 <Bike> I don't like 2000, then.
01:22:49 <Bike> «It should be clear that the technique I used for automatically instrumenting regexes did not work correctly in all cases. For example, [xy] would have been transformed to [x(?{pause})y(?{pause})] which is clearly a disaster.»
01:24:34 <Bike> are you luxombourgish?
01:25:07 <Bike> «The print_bytecode function would ignore its actual argument, which was useless. Instead, it would grovel recursively over the Perl op tree until it found the place from which it had been called. Then it would hunt up the match node, extract the B-regex from it, and dump that.» elliott......
01:25:57 <Bike> yeah sure but come on phantom_hoover look at this shit
01:26:01 <elliott> luxembourgh isn't even a place Phantom_Hoover
01:26:05 <Bike> «This was amusing and educational. »
01:26:29 <elliott> apparently Bike is from the UK
01:26:35 <elliott> unless geoip is lying to me
01:26:51 <Bike> that's probably the most amusing geoip for me i've seen yet
01:27:08 <elliott> in fact it seems to be looking up my geoip
01:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> we all know nobody actually lives in luxembourg except for tax reasons
01:28:19 <Bike> i thought we agreed that we "weren't" "stalking me"
01:28:28 <elliott> it's not my fault you didn't set up a cloak!!!
01:28:33 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy Phantom_Hoover Fiora
01:28:44 <Bike> «Other kinds of nodes have other information associated with them. For example, the {m,n} operator is represented by a CURLY node, and with m and n stored in the following four bytes as two-byte signed integers. (I don't know why they're signed, but the result is that arguments larger than 32767 cannot be represented, and that a{3,} is actually identical with a{3,32767}.)»
01:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> monqy, what did Fiora ever do to you to deserve Phantom_Hoovering
01:30:07 <Bike> «Character classes (node type ANYOF) are followed by a 256-bit bit mask; bits are set if the corresponding character is in the class.»
01:35:30 <ion> http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/dec/13/cia-tortured-sodomised-terror-suspect
01:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> ion we have talked about just posting a link and not saying anything
01:37:54 <Bike> obviously ion meant it as something worse even than all this garbage i've been pasting.
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02:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i still find it hard to believe that keegan is a real name
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02:06:44 <Fiora> oh jeez roxy is talking drunk to calliope
02:07:48 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keegan
02:07:59 <kmc> there are totally several of us
02:08:12 <kmc> what's your name
02:09:11 <elliott> keegan is a pretty good name imo
02:09:17 <Phantom_Hoover> classified, but a name that's about as stupid as adamhnan
02:10:04 <elliott> i distinctly recall you confirmed it was once
02:10:17 <elliott> iirc fizzie narrowed it down to two
02:10:19 <elliott> so it must be the other one!
02:10:43 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but fortunately you etymologied yourself in the foot and i thought it was too funny to correct
02:13:12 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: are you serious
02:13:24 <elliott> domhnall is at least 10x more stupid than adhamhnáin
02:13:32 <elliott> how do you even fucking pronounce that
02:14:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i basically have to say it five times to people before they get it right
02:14:12 <elliott> scottish people are the stupidest people on earth
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02:14:43 <Jafet> elliott: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/25/1077676832301.html
02:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ""I'm not asking for something unreasonable," Mr C0ckburn wrote to the Mercury News."
02:15:44 <zzo38> I thought it was pronounce like "domhnall"
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03:07:36 <kmc> working 802.11n in linux?!?!?!? truly the apocalypse is nigh
03:20:48 <Jafet> Probably an enterprise datacenter somewhere needed it
03:24:21 <kmc> did you see that dell is selling a linux laptop targetted at developers?
03:24:23 <kmc> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/11/dell-releases-powerful-well-supported-linux-ultrabook/
03:24:27 <kmc> it comes with a bunch of cloud shit
03:36:20 <zzo38> Then delete whatever you don't need, perhaps
03:36:32 <zzo38> Is that possible, or is that difficult?
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03:37:43 <ion> kmc: Interesting
03:38:46 <zzo38> The extra stuff seem it might be just ordinary packages, so you should be able to remove whatever things you don't need with apt-get or whatever, I guess.
03:38:51 <ion> About thrice the money i’d put into a laptop i’d buy for myself. :-)
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03:42:05 <kmc> also even if you are reinstalling from scratch, you have more assurance that hardware works with linux
03:42:10 <kmc> but these days that isn't such a big deal
03:53:10 <kmc> i actually thought the price on that dell thing is pretty good
03:53:37 <kmc> considering it has an i7 with 8GB of RAM, it compares favorably to the thinkpad ultrabook i just got
03:53:52 <kmc> but yes, ultrabooks are pretty pricy
03:54:17 <ion> My budget is smaller; i won’t expect to get as powerful hardware either.
04:06:57 <kmc> apparently Ivy Bridge CPUs have this feature where a plain old REP MOVSB gives you a really fast memcpy()... if a variety of strange conditions are met
04:07:22 <Bike> conditions such as?
04:08:16 <kmc> in particular the source and destination buffers need to overlap... but the CPU checks this against the bottom 12 bits of the address only
04:08:20 <kmc> need to not overlap*
04:09:11 <kmc> because if you looked at the full virtual address, you might conclude that the buffers don't overlap when really they do overlap in physical memory
04:09:22 <kmc> so in these cases it falls back to a slow sequential byte-at-a-time copy
04:09:30 <kmc> in order to preserve REP MOVSB semantics
04:12:41 <kmc> and i guess checking the physical address is too hard / introduces an annoying data dependency with the MMU
04:12:57 <kmc> and maybe even then it would not be correct
04:13:27 <Fiora> is this new to ivybridge? I know there's been a ton of really weird things with hardware "rep movX" support
04:13:30 <kmc> because you need to produce the same sequence of page faults
04:13:53 <kmc> i think this particular feature is new yeah http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1205.3/00551.html
04:14:55 <Fiora> I need to go reread that, I don't think I've read the ivy bridge version
04:15:14 <kmc> of the optimization manual?
04:15:38 <kmc> an 800 page bedtime story
04:15:52 <Bike> slash murder weapon
04:15:55 <Fiora> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/64-ia-32-architectures-optimization-manual.html "updated april 2012" no ivy bridge sjdflksd
04:16:09 <Bike> it uh, probably takes a while to write
04:16:21 <Fiora> oh nevermind, it's hiding there
04:16:25 <Fiora> under the sandy bridge section
04:16:51 <Fiora> .... okay it has half a page on the ivy bridge <_<;
04:17:28 <Fiora> ahhh, ivy bridge stuff seems to be mixed around
04:18:06 <Fiora> ooh. mov reg32, reg32 and mov reg64, reg64 are now eliminated by the front end
04:18:09 <Fiora> and not executed as uops
04:18:19 <Fiora> along with xmm,xmm/ymm,ymm moves
04:18:35 <Fiora> AMD already did the latter but it's really cool to see Intel going after gpr moves too
04:18:57 <Fiora> ! and it eliminates movzx reg32/64, reg8 too, wow
04:19:19 <Fiora> note to self: movzx is now free
04:20:14 <Fiora> "Processors that provide enhanced MOVSB/STOSB operations are enumerated by the CPUID feature flag: CPUID:(EAX=7H,
04:20:17 <Fiora> ECX=0H):EBX.ERMSB[bit 9] = 1."
04:20:20 <Fiora> wow, they actually made a feature flag for that o_O
04:20:41 <kmc> well if you don't have it, the sequential byte-at-a-time move will perform terribly
04:20:51 <kmc> you'll want to use an unrolled SSE move or something
04:21:11 <Fiora> makes sense, yeah, I'm just surprised they made a feature flag for a performance thing
04:21:21 <Fiora> usually when I have to deal with issues where "X is slow on cpu Y" I have to just detect the cpu
04:21:49 <Fiora> instead of like having a cpuid "pshufb is atrociously slow on this cpu" flag or a "bsr/bsf are microcoded and take 15 cycles on this cpu" flag XD
04:21:57 <kmc> heh, fair enough
04:22:09 <Fiora> but it's nice I guess
04:23:24 <kmc> i should try out SMEP now that I have an Ivy Bridge CPU
04:23:26 <Fiora> 3.7.7 in the optimization manul describes it, it's pretty cool
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04:24:25 <Fiora> ooh cool. they added a prefetcher that can prefetch the next page
04:24:34 <Fiora> I think previously the hardware prefetcher only prefetched within the same page
04:24:46 <Fiora> which could get icky when your stride was like, 2000, and your page size was 4096
04:27:11 * Fiora has way too much fun reading these things <_<;
04:28:50 <Fiora> I like thinking about the hardware design reasons for certain odd constraints they end up with
04:28:57 <Fiora> like how macro-op fusion doesn't work if the first instruction ends on byte 63 of a cache line
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04:30:49 <Fiora> huh, and xor/sub to zero a register is now not just detected, but optimized out (I guess aliased to some internal zero register)
04:30:57 <Fiora> it's like it's converting it to mips internally <_<;;
04:31:37 <Fiora> cmpeq xmm,xmm (to generate all 1s) is detected, but not optimized out
04:31:44 <Fiora> so I guess they have a 0 register but not a 1s register
04:32:41 <elliott> haven't x86 cpus been risc under the hood for ages now
04:33:03 <Fiora> kinda I guess. though it depends on the definition of risc I guess
04:33:32 <Fiora> not always though, even if risc means load/store, I think. because like, the atom doesn't split up instructions into uops (since it's not out of order) and it can do a load every cycle as part of the instruction
04:33:49 <Fiora> mov eax, [ecx] add ebx, eax
04:34:05 <Fiora> but atom is weiiird
04:35:02 <elliott> well i have no idea what i am talking about
04:35:10 <elliott> i am the itidus21 of cpu architectures
04:35:40 <elliott> hey i just realised #esoteric is actually good again
04:35:46 <pikhq> Fiora: Pretty sure Atom is still uops.
04:35:59 <Fiora> um, let me check the manual...
04:36:00 <pikhq> Though I can't remember why...
04:36:03 <elliott> i was not anticipating it to get out of the being #itidus/being #clojure cheater ban evasion fun slump
04:36:12 <elliott> apparently i am too cynical
04:36:29 <Fiora> oh wow intel has an entirely separate section for the atom
04:36:32 <Fiora> it's not in the main sectino
04:36:36 <Fiora> maybe that means it isn't a real cpu <_<;
04:38:02 <Fiora> so every instruction uses either port 0, port 1, or both ports (dual-issue) and it's in-order
04:38:36 <Fiora> loads use port 0, but if you pair a load with a port-0 instruction, it's free
04:38:51 <Fiora> loads actually have latency 1 because of where they are in the pipeline I think?
04:39:10 <Fiora> ... it's really weird because it feels more like an old RISC pipeline than a giant complicated OOE blob =_=
04:39:24 <Fiora> okay and I'm rambling here
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04:40:02 <Fiora> yay, the atom is fun. 64-bit IDIV is 197 cycle latency
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04:41:39 <kmc> in the compilers class my team won the optimization competition, and we won it largely with the simplest optimization
04:41:49 <kmc> which is to convert multiply / divide by a power of 2 into shifts
04:41:57 <Fiora> wait, and nobody else did that? XD
04:42:00 <kmc> this helped a lot because the test program was a mandlebrot set renderer in fixed point arithmetic >_<
04:42:16 <kmc> Fiora: yeah... we didn't have a lot of time to even get the damn thing working
04:42:31 <kmc> i think fewer than half of the teams submitted compilers that would produce correct code
04:43:06 <Fiora> we had a compilers class where we did some basic optimizations and stuff but we had a pretty long time to work on it, it was like a multi-stage thing
04:43:11 <Fiora> like first get a parser, then lexer, then...
04:43:22 <Fiora> it was a thing with yacc and lex and haskell and jvm bytecode
04:43:26 <kmc> we did that, but the entire class was only 10 weeks
04:43:50 <Fiora> this one was a one-semester class on programming languages
04:44:05 <kmc> i guess the compilers class at MIT judges heavily on performance on science-style array manipulating code
04:44:20 <kmc> so people put a lot of effort into vectorization and stuff like that
04:44:27 <Fiora> wow, they were able to /do/ that?
04:44:32 <Fiora> isn't vectorization incredibly hard
04:44:54 <kmc> well, good vectorization is hard i'm sure
04:45:22 <Fiora> like I didn't notice gcc do anything remotely useful until like... 4.7? and geez the people working on gcc must be ridiculously good
04:46:15 <kmc> it doesn't seem that hard to detect and vectorize simple cases like a[i] = b[i] + c[i]
04:46:27 <kmc> i don't know when gcc developed that ability
04:46:46 <kmc> if you are already unrolling then maybe you can just kind of coalesce the unrolled instructions
04:46:51 <kmc> i don't know; haven't done that kind of thing myself
04:46:52 <Fiora> it can be tricky though because of alignment and data types and stuff I think
04:47:07 <kmc> that is probably easier in a compilers class than in a real multi-target compiler
04:49:28 <elliott> Fiora: haskell and jvm bytecode sounds like an unpleasant combo
04:50:20 <kmc> haskell is pretty good at manipulating code of all sorts
04:50:35 <kmc> i assume you are not compiling haskell itself to jvm
04:51:14 <Fiora> we were compiling a toy language to jvm bytecode
04:51:23 <elliott> yeah but jvm bytecode is kind of nontrivial and i don't know that there are any nice libraries representing it in haskell, and imo you suffer a lot more when working with a quick-hack data representation (like the equivalent of just using a dict of tuples in python or w/e) in haskell
04:51:29 <Fiora> the toy language was kinda C-like but minus some complexity to make it easier to parse for a small project
04:51:32 <elliott> so i personally wouldn't want to do it :p
04:51:33 <kmc> elliott: yeah that's true
04:51:36 <Fiora> we didn't write bytecode, we just wrote asm
04:51:45 <Fiora> and used an assembler to assemble it to actual bytecode
04:51:59 <Fiora> since that's a pointless reinvention of the wheel XD
04:52:21 <Fiora> I mean just like printing "push x" and "add 2" and so on to the asm file
04:52:28 <kmc> well it would be nice to have a representation in your compiler of instructions
04:52:35 <kmc> besides "strings: the worst data structure"
04:52:40 <kmc> but not necessary for a small project
04:52:48 <Fiora> that gets converted to strings to print it out
04:52:52 <elliott> basically if i had a ton of time then i would enjoy mangling jvm bytecode in haskell over most languages
04:53:10 <Bike> a struct to represent x86 instructions sounds like it would be a complicated struct
04:53:10 <Fiora> the best thing about doing it haskell I think was that omg the type checking
04:53:13 <elliott> but that includes the time to develop a proper full representation which is work :P
04:53:16 <Fiora> just /so many bugs found/
04:53:32 <Fiora> the haskell static typing along with the type system we had set up in it was just like magic working pixie dust
04:53:47 <kmc> we wrote our compiler in ocaml which was also pretty good
04:53:57 <kmc> i would prefer haskell as i know it well, now
04:54:16 <elliott> i would prefer haskell to ocaml because it's better
04:54:16 <kmc> but expecting people to learn Haskell *and* write a compiler in 10 weeks is a little unrealistic
04:54:17 <Fiora> pattern matching was also really cool for doing optimizations
04:54:36 <Fiora> like we could match against patterns we wanted to optimize
04:54:56 <elliott> Fiora: it's no coincidence that haskell excels at compilery tasks
04:55:11 <elliott> Fiora: well functional programming languages have a strong connection to it
04:55:11 <Bike> ML was written for writing compilers, wasn't it
04:55:17 <elliott> like ML is pretty similar to Haskell in many ways
04:55:18 <Bike> "meta language" and all
04:55:24 <elliott> and it's called metalanguage because it was made to write compilers :P
04:55:30 <elliott> (Haskell isn't derived from ML though)
04:55:43 <Bike> isn't it a strong influence? or am i just being misled by the syntax
04:55:46 <kmc> it's loosely derived
04:55:51 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:55:57 <elliott> Bike: it's sideways related
04:56:00 <Bike> pattern matching and HM typing and all that shit
04:56:02 <kmc> Haskell was an effort to unify research in a bunch of lazy functional languages
04:56:07 <elliott> Haskell is basically -- yeah
04:56:07 <kmc> including Lazy ML
04:56:14 <kmc> and others which were all reminiscent of ML
04:56:21 <elliott> there were a kajillion lazy languages being used and everyone got together and said let's compromise
04:56:25 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:56:27 <kmc> the core ideas of ML are all there in Haskell, plus a lot more
04:56:27 <elliott> the nearest ancestor of the result is Miranda
04:56:31 <Fiora> no wonder our prof loved it
04:56:32 <Bike> i have a book on compilers in standard ml that i still haven't read because i'm a dumbass
04:56:40 <elliott> which now looks like a weirder minimalist version of Haskell
04:56:47 <Bike> also because i don't know standard ml and all the resources apparently kind of suck
04:57:06 <Bike> i should probably just do it in haskell, really
04:57:07 <elliott> funnily enough the most popular dialect of ML, O'Caml, was also invented to write a compiler!
04:57:30 <Bike> i thought coq was a theorem prover, or more to the point interactive and shit
04:57:40 <elliott> sort of interesting that an entire language and toolchain were developed to develop a quite significantly more advanced language but the former has dwarfed the latter to some degree
04:57:45 <elliott> Bike: theorem prover/programming language
04:58:07 <kmc> Coq has a reasonably nice pure functional language, for writing programs you want to prove things about
04:58:08 <elliott> it is an intuitionistic theorem prover and a dependently-typed programming language
04:58:18 <kmc> and also a bizarre nasty imperative implicitly-scoped mess for writing proof tactics
04:58:23 <elliott> the things people actually enter are programmery basically
04:58:28 <elliott> but nobody uses it for actually writing programs really
04:58:28 <kmc> also you can compile the former to ML or Haskell
04:58:29 <Bike> yeah i've seen that much
04:58:31 <elliott> except as a proof of concept
04:58:37 <Bike> does it happen to be based on uh, what's that guy
04:58:38 <elliott> Agda is where that stuff happens
04:58:43 <kmc> if for some reason you wanted to actually use the thing you proved correct
04:58:47 <kmc> Martin-Loef?
04:58:59 <Bike> i should read those pdfs i've got
04:58:59 <kmc> Calculus of Constructions => CoC => Coq
04:59:06 <kmc> 420 read pdfs every day
04:59:06 <Bike> it's kind of hard to get through all that "judgement" crap
04:59:18 <elliott> is CoC actually derived from martin-lof
04:59:22 <Bike> right now i have a pdf on neuroparasitism open. it is very distracting
04:59:23 <kmc> i thought so
04:59:42 <elliott> kmc: btw I think that second step is meant to be icoc or whatever
05:00:27 <kmc> inductive and coinductive too
05:00:53 <Bike> what's coinduction?
05:01:23 <kmc> Bike: uh i have a very fuzzy understanding only
05:01:26 <Bike> guess i should figure out codata first. fucking coeverything
05:01:28 <elliott> Bike: roughly you can prove things about the naturals with induction. you can prove things about infinite streams with coinduction
05:01:34 <elliott> data : induction :: codata : coinduction
05:01:39 <kmc> but i'll do my best to say something that's subtly misleading and will confuse you for years
05:01:43 <elliott> and also, recursion : induction :: corecursion : coinduction
05:01:54 <Bike> wow does that even mean anything
05:01:54 <elliott> note that a lot of the "recursion" you do in a lazy language like Haskell is actually corecursion
05:01:59 <elliott> and a lot of the data you define is actually codata!
05:02:15 <kmc> yeah for recursive functions, you prove termination by showing that every recursive call is on a strictly smaller sub-term of the input data
05:02:21 <Bike> mostly just kind of pissed that the words are defined this way
05:02:26 <kmc> for corecursion you prove that the function is "productive" instead
05:02:29 <Bike> i should go back to misunderstanding catamorphisms
05:02:33 <kmc> meaning that every recursive call is buried under a data constructor
05:02:48 <kmc> so you can always force the result to head-normal form with a finite amount of work
05:02:52 <elliott> Bike: basically you know how the list type in haskell admits infinite lists
05:03:02 <elliott> that's because it's actually codata
05:03:02 <Bike> and you generalize that and bla bla
05:03:10 <elliott> if it was data it would only represent finite lists
05:03:14 <kmc> so e.g. you could prove shit about the infinite list of prime numbers, because you can prove that you can always get the next one in finite time
05:03:16 <Bike> and suddenly you have infinite trees of chessobards
05:03:25 <elliott> map f [] = []; map f (x:xs) = x : map f xs
05:03:30 <elliott> because rearranging the syntax a little
05:03:35 <elliott> map f [] = []; map f (x:xs) = (:) x (map f xs)
05:03:48 <elliott> that self-call buried under a data constructor --> corecursion
05:04:16 <elliott> with a language that actually cares about stuff being meaningful something like "bad [] = []; bad (x:xs) = bad xs" wouldn't work
05:04:22 <Bike> and then something like factorial where you do both at once (1- to deconstruct, * to construct) is a fuckomorphism or w/e
05:04:27 <elliott> because you're not productive -- you can't peel off a data constructor in finite time
05:04:56 <elliott> (and this can be very important because non-termination is analogous to proving false)
05:05:15 <Bike> wait, so what's the problem with bad? that it won't terminate on infinite x?
05:05:16 <elliott> (hence why languages used for proofs have to be strict about this stuff and restrict what programs/recursions you can write)
05:05:36 <elliott> 1 : 1 : 1 : ... is perfectly valid codata
05:05:43 <elliott> but bad (1 : 1 : 1 : 1 : ...) is not a perfectly valid value
05:05:54 <elliott> (since we have already rejected nontermination as logically unsound)
05:06:06 <elliott> basically haskell lets you do "general recursion" which is where nontermination comes in
05:06:09 <Bike> in haskell can you define bad? knowing that it'll fail
05:06:22 <elliott> (equivalent to the Y combinator)
05:06:41 <Bike> that type signature does not look equivalent to a fixed point combinator (which you can't do in haskell typing anyway, can you?)
05:07:00 <elliott> what you can't do is implement the y combinator directly
05:07:08 <elliott> anyway if you look at that type like it's a logical statement it says
05:07:13 <elliott> "forall a, (a implies a) implies a"
05:07:15 <elliott> aka "forall a, true implies a"
05:07:23 <Bike> right, and therefore everything's true
05:07:27 <elliott> which is the fundamental reason general recursion isn't logically sound
05:07:31 <elliott> but yes you can define bad in Haskell
05:07:33 <Bike> obviously i need to read tapl better >_>
05:07:44 <elliott> only uptight dependently-typed languages nobody uses actually care about this stuff :)
05:07:46 <Bike> Does agda let you define bad?
05:07:51 <Bike> (I'm guessing no)
05:08:16 <elliott> unless you turn off the termination checker
05:08:30 <Bike> I looked at uh, what was it called, Charity I think. Something a bit like agda in terms of uptightness, and only admitting terminating programs
05:08:33 <elliott> note that you don't necessarily lose turing completeness by doing this. do you know haskell's IO story? (it doesn't really matter if not)
05:08:45 <Bike> "IO story"? I know a bit about how the monad works.
05:08:47 <elliott> yes charity is total which is the technical term for rejecting nontermination like this
05:09:00 <elliott> the story as in, Haskell is a pure language, but it has a type that represents, abstractly, "a program that does IO"
05:09:20 <elliott> and though the values of this type are perfectly "pure" -- you can write a data type with GetChar constructors or whatever to model it the same if you want -- the runtime system executes it for you
05:09:21 <Bike> which is impure.
05:09:31 <Bike> no. great. ok.
05:09:42 <elliott> IO is an /encoding/ of an impure language
05:10:01 <elliott> data MyLanguage a = Return a | GetChar (Char -> a) | PutChar Char (MyLanguage a)
05:10:06 <elliott> (continuation-passing style)
05:10:16 <elliott> cat = GetChar (\c -> PutChar c cat)
05:10:17 <Bike> From what I understand IO works by being in a sorta-CPS style, where the composition isn't associative, so that preserves ordering
05:10:27 <elliott> the fact that you can define this data type does not mean Haskell is impure, right?
05:10:31 <elliott> it is just a piece of data like any other
05:10:37 <elliott> even though it /represents/ an impure, imperative program
05:10:37 <Bike> I don't really have any idea what "pure" means anyway.
05:10:46 <elliott> neither does anybody else :p
05:10:49 <Bike> Especially after watching you guys faff about with unsafeCoerce.
05:10:51 <elliott> but basically IO is just like MyLanguage
05:11:04 <elliott> except that the runtime system will actually "interpret" this type for you
05:11:10 <elliott> anyway this is just confusing you more than helping you
05:11:20 <elliott> but I was going to say that you can represent partiality in a total language using codata
05:11:24 <Bike> shrug, that's what i do anyway.
05:11:29 <elliott> codata Partial a = Now a | Later (Partial a)
05:11:35 <elliott> we can recast bad in this style:
05:11:40 <elliott> bad [] = Now []; bad (x:xs) = Later (bad xs)
05:12:00 <elliott> because our self-call is buried under a constructor you can always peel one off in finite time
05:12:14 <elliott> and you can imagine your total language's runtime system being able to "interpret" a (Partial a)
05:12:20 <Bike> So this is the fancy type version of putting everything in lambdas to make streams.
05:12:26 <elliott> by peeling off Laters until it finds a Now, a possibly non-terminating process that takes place *outside* the language
05:12:42 <elliott> which is to say, you can have a total but Turing-complete language
05:12:46 <elliott> just like Haskell is pure but can do IO
05:12:54 <elliott> ok I'm done confusing things now
05:13:22 <elliott> always here to spread chaos and horror
05:13:25 <Bike> now i can go back to misunderstanding how to optimize exponetiation, like a real man
05:13:50 <elliott> what's exponetiation and also what are you doing
05:13:58 <Bike> exponentiation.
05:14:01 <Bike> spelling is hard
05:14:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addition-chain_exponentiation rather pedestrian compared to agda, i'm sure
05:14:45 <elliott> well I meant what are you doing in a more general sense
05:14:52 <Bike> dicking around
05:15:11 <Bike> i don't know what general sense you mean though
05:15:22 <kmc> [USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST]
05:15:44 <Bike> (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) let's see if i can remember colors
05:20:44 <Bike> elliott: actually can i ask one last thing that may or may not erupt into another two pages of text? if the runtime interprets Partial in such a way that bad may not return a value, how is bad a total function?
05:21:03 <elliott> well it's not that the runtime "interprets" it that way
05:21:28 <elliott> you have an interpreter that takes a file, and prints out a string representation of the "foo" value in it
05:21:40 <elliott> so if you say foo = bad anInfiniteStreamOf1s
05:21:45 <elliott> then ./interp myfile.totallang
05:21:57 <elliott> Later (Later (Later (Later (Later (Later (Later (Later (...
05:22:12 <elliott> obviously the fact that you can print a value this way does not mean the language itself is not total
05:22:17 <elliott> now pipe that to another program
05:22:23 <elliott> ./interp myfile.totallang | ./findnow
05:22:36 <elliott> which simply reads stdin, peels off every Later, and prints what it finds inside a Now if it finds one
05:22:43 <elliott> this interp | findnow process is not total
05:22:48 <elliott> but it happens outside the language's semantics
05:22:59 <elliott> you can still reason about the language itself assuming total strict totality and all that reasoning will still apply
05:23:11 <elliott> (similarly for Haskell and purity (assuming you don't use any functions with "unsafe" in the name))
05:24:39 <Bike> well i mean, you can't say, tell me what type bad anInfiniteStreamOf1s is within the language, can you? (though i guess it might be bottom)
05:24:59 <elliott> the whole point of codata is that we admit values like anInfiniteStreamOf1s...
05:25:15 <elliott> codata Stream a = Empty | Cons a (Stream a)
05:25:36 <elliott> codata Partial a = Done a | Later (Partial a)
05:25:45 <elliott> bad :: Stream a -> Partial (); bad Empty = Done (); bad (Cons x xs) = Later (bad xs)
05:26:04 <elliott> ones :: Stream Int; ones = Cons 1 ones -- this is valid corecursion because it's behind a constructor
05:26:12 <elliott> foo :: Partial (); foo = bad ones
05:26:24 <elliott> ("bad" is now a misnomer, it's a perfectly fine function now that it uses Partial)
05:27:36 <elliott> looks like i have managed to thoroughly bamboozle Bike
05:28:41 <Bike> i can't tell if i'm misunderstanding something important or something trivial. codata i think i get, infinite stream of ones with lazy evaluation is super easy, but not "well it's total except sometimes functions don't terminate" if that's even what you're saying which i doubt
05:30:09 <elliott> well the thing to realise is that *nothing* inside the language ever fails to terminate
05:30:24 <elliott> you cannot point me to a single thing in that program that isn't a valid corecursion
05:30:40 <Bike> i don't understand how foo = bad ones can terminate.
05:30:42 <elliott> all I am saying is that this does not prevent you from writing programs that do not terminate in practice, because you can *model* them, and this model can be interpreted from *outside* the language semantics
05:30:53 <elliott> Bike: well, try inlining it
05:30:59 <elliott> bad (Cons x xs) = Later (bad xs)
05:31:08 <elliott> bad ones = bad (Cons 1 ones) = Later (bad ones)
05:31:33 <elliott> if you think an infinite stream "terminates" (the question doesn't really make sense, but you can assuredly represent such a stream), then bad ones = Later (bad ones) is perfectly fine too
05:31:45 <elliott> in fact the Stream and Partial types are almost identical
05:33:07 <Bike> oh ok, but we can't write something, within the language, that's like the earlier bad, where it "forces evaluation" of the infinite Laters?
05:33:28 <Bike> but we can have something outside the language that tries.
05:33:32 <Bike> ok. i think i get that. thanks.
05:33:33 <elliott> just like you cannot write fireZeMissiles :: IO a -> a in Haskell
05:34:05 <elliott> but you can write void fire_ze_missiles(My_Weird_Internal_IO_Representation *) in the C code to your implementation
05:34:51 <zzo38> I know something like data MyLanguage a = Return a | GetChar (Char -> a) | PutChar Char (MyLanguage a) is possible, and have thought of such things in whatever functional programming language
05:35:25 <zzo38> However it seem maybe not right?
05:35:48 <zzo38> Maybe you need GetChar (Char -> MyLanguage a) ?
05:36:44 <zzo38> But there are other ways, such as a (Free (CoYoneda x)) monad
05:37:23 <elliott> i felt such a representation would not help Bike so much :P
05:37:50 <Bike> whatever, i'm the inbred yokel here
05:37:58 <zzo38> It might not, although, there are many ways.
05:38:29 <elliott> Bike: it may be consoling to know that the majority of #haskell wouldn't be able tog et this straight either
05:39:16 <Bike> well, that's not too surprising
05:39:45 <Bike> same way you can use C without giving a damn about pointer aliasing i suppose
05:40:27 <zzo38> unsafePerformIO is sometimes used for global variables too but there are other ways.
05:40:33 <elliott> well for a start this totality stuff is not really directly relevant to Haskell at all
05:40:50 <elliott> for an end the secret is that most people who use Haskell don't actually really know what they're doing :P
05:40:59 <elliott> this applies to basically every language
05:41:01 <Bike> that's what i was getting at yes
05:41:14 <elliott> well you can probably write good C code without caring about pointer aliasing
05:41:23 <elliott> since it is a bit pathological
05:41:34 <Bike> i suppose y'all have it harder with people trying to write monad burrito tutorials every which way
05:41:42 <Fiora> until you do something really horrific like I did earlier and gcc miscompiles it <_<;
05:41:49 <elliott> is there a pointer tutorial cottage industry
05:42:04 <Bike> you know i think there may have been at some point
05:42:13 <Bike> i know i've seen a bunch of metaphors about PO boxes
05:43:25 <elliott> i remember watching "pointer fun with binky"
05:43:30 <Bike> «In pure functional languages, function arguments may usually alias each other, but all pointers are read-only. Thus, no alias analysis needs to be done.» ok sure
05:43:48 <zzo38> Such as (StateT (ExtProd GlobalVariables) IO) (implementation of ExtProd uses unsafeCoerce internally, but only to convert something to the same type which it already is)
05:43:52 <elliott> it's called "sharing" in functional languages
05:44:01 <zzo38> Fiora: What example?
05:44:19 <Bike> i think she means her float p-associativity thing
05:44:30 <Bike> nonconforming (horrors)
05:44:34 <Fiora> http://privatepaste.com/59a8109713 that thing
05:45:04 <Bike> also the whole 'pointer aliasing' tree on wikipedia makes it out to be the main reason fortran is Faster than C, rad
05:45:36 <Fiora> yeah, aliasing optimization-wise can be really annoying and frustrating
05:45:52 <Fiora> Intel's C compiler actually does something totally crazy that I've seen in disassembly a few times
05:46:03 <Fiora> where it thinks aliasing is an issue it'll template the code based on whether or not two pointers alias
05:46:06 <Fiora> and branch on runtime
05:46:25 <elliott> aliasing of mutable pointers is the saddest thing
05:46:35 <elliott> yet another reason we can blame C for all ills in the world
05:46:41 <elliott> and also a billion other languages
05:46:44 <Bike> fortran 4 lyfe
05:46:48 <Fiora> "uint8_t* can alias everything" is kind of dumb <_>
05:46:56 <elliott> Bike: well. rather drop the mutable part than the aliasing part
05:47:06 <kmc> wow suspend to RAM is incredibly fast on this machine
05:47:24 <kmc> under 2 seconds to suspend, 1 second flat to resume all the way
05:47:42 <Bike> elliott: you would, you, you...! i can't think of a remotely nonterrible insult for agda users sorry
05:47:49 <Bike> what does "agda" even mean, is it some old celtic god
05:47:54 <zzo38> Fiora: Yes, I know, and LLVM does this; they really should allow void* instead
05:48:01 <elliott> haha like I actually use Agda
05:48:09 <Bike> well you know it exists
05:48:17 <kmc> Bike: there is a sweedish dirty song titled "Hönan Agda"
05:48:26 <kmc> about a hen who really loves the cock, if you will
05:48:34 <elliott> I have no idea where Agda's game originates
05:48:36 <Bike> kmc: that'd better be the actual etymology
05:48:37 <kmc> so it's a play on coq
05:48:44 <elliott> kmc: please tell me that's actually true
05:49:01 <kmc> listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKUscEWPVAM
05:49:19 <Bike> cock is the answer
05:49:34 <kmc> i read this somewhere semi authoritative
05:49:36 <Bike> jesus swedish sounds weird
05:50:00 <pikhq> Yes, Jesus Swedish is a strange language.
05:50:23 <elliott> swedish as spoken by jesus himself
05:50:31 <Bike> i should try to introduce that as a term to refer to the old language in newly christianized monks' scrolls or something
05:50:43 <Bike> except i don't know any swedish paleolinguists... shit......
05:51:02 <elliott> that ruins all my plans too
05:51:29 <Bike> now i have to go check if "paleolinguist" is a term anyone actually uses.
05:51:49 <kmc> anyway i bet #agda would know if i made this up
05:51:49 <Bike> oh, they do. proto-human crapola, awesome.
05:51:54 <kmc> Bike: paleography is, for sure
05:52:03 <elliott> Fiora: btw is it really miscompilation if your program invokes UB...
05:52:11 <kmc> i had to look up a soviet era paleography text book on russian rapidshare in my quest to track down Multiocular O
05:52:41 <Bike> «Multiocular O (ꙮ) is the most rare and exotic glyph variant of Cyrillic letter O. This glyph variant can be found in certain manuscripts in the phrase «серафими многоꙮчитїи» ("many-eyed seraphim")» what the fuck?
05:52:47 <kmc> i will point out that agda is from .se
05:52:53 <Bike> that sounds straight out of a dan brown novel
05:53:54 <kmc> yeah, basically some bored monk put a doodle in a copy of Psalms
05:54:10 <kmc> and then almost 600 years later a bunch of linguists and computer scientists had a very serious meeting about what to do about it
05:54:18 <Bike> anyway i imagine paleography is a bit easier than paleolinguistics, given that we don't even know how sumerian was pronounced
05:54:36 <kmc> and recommended it for inclusion in the International Standard Organization's Universal Character Set
05:54:55 <Fiora> elliott: technically no, but... XD
05:54:57 <kmc> there's a link to a scan of the manuscript on that page
05:55:13 <Bike> it's not actually in the cyrillic block, is it
05:55:30 <kmc> what bugs me is that the Unicode reference glyph has 7 eyes but the only (?) extant source for the character has 10 eyes
05:55:55 <Bike> also now i'm tryig to remember if all those dumb scripts like klingon and deseret are actually in unicode or just use one of the "do whatever" blocks
05:55:56 <elliott> unicode meetings must be interesting
05:56:05 <kmc> klingon is still private use yeah
05:56:20 <elliott> i think it kind of makes sense to put klingon in unicode
05:56:28 <Bike> deseret was actually used by non-dorks for a few minutes, is the thing that makes me wonder
05:56:28 <pikhq> Though the reason Klingon was turned down for inclusion wasn't that it was a joke script.
05:56:28 <kmc> Bike: it's in some "old / weird cyrillc shit" block, but still in the BMP
05:56:37 <zzo38> Wikipedia also seven eyes
05:56:41 <elliott> pikhq: what was the actual reason? I don't know it
05:56:43 <pikhq> ... It was that no Klingon speakers actually used Klingon script.
05:57:03 <elliott> pikhq: is this a vacuous property or are there actually klingon speakers who don't know the script
05:57:24 <Bike> i think there are more klingon speakers than there are esperanto speakers...
05:57:34 <pikhq> elliott: In general Klingon text is in a Romanization.
05:57:36 <kmc> esperanto has like a million speakers
05:57:41 <Bike> and esperanto has its dumbass orthography in there
05:57:45 <zzo38> If you write in the text using Unicode then how are you supposed to know if you mean seraphim have seven eyes or do they have ten?
05:57:54 <kmc> "10,000 to 2,000,000"
05:57:58 <zzo38> And I think there is Conscripts for if you want Klingon scripts? I am unsure
05:57:58 <elliott> pikhq: how can people who go to the lengths of learning klingon not go the extra mile and learn the script
05:57:58 <pikhq> Esperanto uses glyphs that other languages also make use.
05:58:04 <Bike> ok, maybe i'm exaggerating.
05:58:05 <pikhq> Erm, also make use of.
05:58:07 <kmc> what's 2 orders of magnitude between friends
05:58:12 <quintopia> whats the difference between tolkien dwarves and klingons
05:58:18 <Bike> pikhq: yeah, i know, i just suddenly remembered that i hate esperanto and its orthography.
05:58:20 <quintopia> other than the height and language
05:58:29 <elliott> also one of them is in star trek
05:58:41 <elliott> the other is in lotr (the klingons)
05:58:42 <Bike> klingons don't dig mines do they
05:59:00 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> If you write in the text using Unicode then how are you supposed to know if you mean seraphim have seven eyes or do they have ten?
05:59:10 <HackEgo> 871) <zzo38> If you write in the text using Unicode then how are you supposed to know if you mean seraphim have seven eyes or do they have ten?
05:59:11 <Bike> and dwarves don't... do... whatever klingons do? yell at kirk or whatever
05:59:18 <pikhq> Bike: Mi ŝat' l'ortografion.
06:00:51 <pikhq> tèmo, sono nihonnkò no seisiȳohou kà saikou tà to omou
06:01:13 <Bike> is that some japonic language
06:01:23 <kmc> seems as good a time as any to link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ3c8_ZTNrg
06:01:25 <pikhq> Japanese, in specific.
06:01:37 <pikhq> In a silly orthography.
06:01:38 <Bike> i don't think i've ever seen that romanization. what is it?
06:01:48 <Bike> or just something y- right
06:02:08 <Bike> "nihhonko" is kind of a giveaway. also macron even if it's not on a vowel somehow
06:02:56 <pikhq> ` is the dakuten, ^ is the handakuten, ¯ indicates the glyph is small, ' is the sokuon, "nn" is the moraic "n".
06:02:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
06:03:12 <pikhq> And transcribe naively from there.
06:04:08 <Bike> kmc: now i'm wondering what recordings they got "fuckin" and "goddamn" from
06:21:47 <zzo38> Something like [[1+2][3+4]+[5+6][7+8]] is allowed in a Csound score and results in 1132
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06:34:31 <kmc> #csoundfacts
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06:54:41 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Pahana Interesting. Also looks kind of like another idea I'm being beaten to because I'm too lazy to really work on it enough.
06:55:50 <MDude> Though I was thinking more of starting at something like a network stack and changing it to work as a human language instead of the reverse.
06:56:10 <elliott> I am really confused by that article
06:56:16 <elliott> as in I'm not sure why it's on the esolang wiki
06:56:27 <Bike> it's a joke on piraha i guess?
06:56:29 <MDude> It's esoteric, and a language?
06:56:54 <Bike> conlangers have their own hangouts, i think
06:57:01 <elliott> the 1/3rd is "programming"
06:57:04 <MDude> If it's the idea I should have already been working on, it's a way of making something usable as a speaking language and computer language.
06:57:13 <Bike> isn't that lojban
06:57:18 <elliott> probably I should just put something on the talk page
06:57:28 <MDude> They just apparently haven't gotten to the comptuer part yet.
06:57:44 <MDude> Or maybe they are in the wrong spot.
06:57:49 <Bike> turns out to just be a pronounceable brainfuck derivative.
06:58:36 <MDude> Ook is alredy plenty pronouncable.
06:58:44 <MDude> And by multiple species.
07:00:52 <Bike> ah, but is your ook program also a poem?
07:03:21 <zzo38> I can see Pahana is really something different and not a esolang, nor does it seem really related, but perhaps move it to a subpage of your user page for now; there might be enough relation for it to go there, at least temporarily.
07:04:49 <MDude> I willas soon as I'm ClaytonB or Aristippus.
07:05:03 <MDude> I'm just guessing at what it might be.
07:05:25 <MDude> Also I don't see either of them in chat.
07:05:57 <zzo38> I could leave a message on the talk page of that article, too.
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07:07:54 <MDude> I will now go to bed and consider having a pahana for breakfast in the morning.
07:08:05 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
07:08:24 <zzo38> I wrote a message on their talk page.
07:09:13 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Pahana
07:10:10 <zzo38> And why was one change made by a different user account?
07:11:22 <MDream> And all they did was switch X and Y to make sure X came first in the sentence.
07:11:25 <Bike> oh boy, my first appearance on the wiki proper.
07:12:48 <zzo38> What is your account on the wiki properly?
07:13:34 <Bike> don't have one.
07:13:44 <zzo38> MDream: Yes, I am a bit confused about this too.
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07:59:13 <elliott> Bike: you should get a wiki account so I can log your password and impersonate you on other websites
07:59:18 <elliott> [DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT ACTUALLY DO THIS]
07:59:54 <Bike> i actually usually make up new passwords which i then forget later
08:00:05 <Bike> your plans are foiled, fictional elliott
08:00:17 <shachaf> Fictional elliott is way better than real elliott.
08:00:29 <elliott> what I do is use the same, not-terribly-secure password everywhere and rely on the fact that nobody likes me or wants to be me
08:00:48 <Bike> i'm pretty sure that's how security generally works
08:00:52 <Bike> you're in good company, real elliott
08:01:08 <Bike> fictional elliott probably just uses the wiki account databae as password idea fodder.
08:01:14 <elliott> good company with people I don't like by definition of said company
08:02:26 <elliott> but they're a group of people relying on the fact that nobody likes them!
08:02:40 <Bike> wow way to make security sound really depressing
08:03:27 <elliott> bank account security: make sure you're always broke so nobody can steal any money from you
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08:45:00 <HackEgo> Phantom_Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
08:45:39 <oerjan> `run echo 'Phantom "Michael" Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.' >wisdom/phantom_hoover
08:45:49 <HackEgo> Phantom "Michael" Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.
08:46:00 <HackEgo> Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is.
08:46:05 <HackEgo> Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
08:46:10 <HackEgo> phantom____hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
08:46:26 <HackEgo> phantom_____hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
08:47:01 <fizzie> It's like those game easter eggs when you do something repeatedly and it stops giving new results and then after enough repetitions there's still one more.
08:47:48 <fizzie> Like uh that one game's installer where you set your soundcard settings and press test, and it says in a British accent "your soundcard works perfectly", and if you keep mashing it it'll say "it doesn't get any better than this".
08:47:57 <fizzie> And I think one more thing if you keep doing it.
08:48:11 <oerjan> `run echo 'Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman and hatheist.' >wisdom/phantom_hoover
08:48:12 <fizzie> (The British accent is a relevant and key detail.)
08:48:44 <fizzie> `run echo "It doesn't get any better than this." >wisdom/phantom_______hoover
08:49:45 <oerjan> `run echo "OK you got me there." >wisdom/phantom__________hoover
08:51:33 <fizzie> `run echo '<span accent="British">Your soundcard works perfectly.</span>' >wisdom/phantom____________________hoover
08:51:44 <fizzie> Okay, maybe that was a bit frivolous.
08:53:19 <fizzie> A frivolous use of unrenewable bot resources.
08:54:34 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_A1GNx0M9M everything is in the internets nowadays.
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09:00:12 <Sgeo> Did I do the elliott Fiora thing? I don't think so
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09:01:09 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/SMRN perhaps I should turn that off.
09:02:38 <oerjan> <elliott> hey i just realised #esoteric is actually good again <-- THE END TIMES I SAY
09:03:53 * oerjan suddenly realizes he's channeling the zombie (great )*grandfather from girl genius
09:04:10 <oerjan> wait, not zombie, mummy
09:06:49 <zzo38> Once I found a CAPTCHA it asked "Do you shop at Canadian Tire?" (it wouldn't let me type in the question)
09:07:38 <oerjan> did it accept "Yes" or "No"?
09:08:18 <zzo38> shachaf: No; I don't own a car so I don't need to.
09:09:59 <zzo38> oerjan: I didn't try to answer it
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09:12:23 <zzo38> But I did try to type in the question and it won't work
09:12:56 <zzo38> Only "Yes" or "No" will fit but I did not try to submit the form so I didn't know
09:17:43 <fizzie> I've got "your soundcard works perfectly" looping in my head. :/
09:19:06 <oerjan> i guess the soundcard in your head works perfectly, then
09:23:39 <Sgeo> Hmm, the Factor server might be working again
09:31:43 <oerjan> I've got the housemate's talking on the phone looping in my head. :/
09:33:16 <oerjan> when did i ever have an adventure?
09:33:49 <oerjan> no. no new adventures.
09:34:58 <oerjan> it's ok i'm hoping the world will end next week
09:35:19 <oerjan> (not believing, mind you.)
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09:43:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: "that one game" was Warcraft II, maybe others as well.
10:02:17 -!- ogrom has joined.
10:02:20 <Sgeo> ...Tcl just got a bit crazy
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10:13:40 <oerjan> <elliott> kmc: please tell me that's actually true <-- i've pointed it out before. it seems too much of a coincidence not to be true
10:13:57 <oerjan> i hope kmc didn't get it from me though...
10:16:33 <Sgeo> Help there's either a crazy person or a troll in #tcl
10:16:50 <Sgeo> As in, talking about brains being forcefed, begging me to contact the CIA
10:17:22 <oerjan> ban him for being off topic, and tell him to report for termination.
10:18:37 <Sgeo> <lagagoose> you are part of a cult
10:18:38 <Sgeo> <lagagoose> your mother is trying to work the system
10:18:38 <Sgeo> <lagagoose> she is probably going to prison
10:19:13 * oerjan swats Sgeo for bringing this here -----###
10:20:42 <oerjan> "Phygs are flying pigs. Their spawning patterns are very similar to those of flying cows."
10:21:00 <shachaf> lesswrong.com people say "phyg" instead of "cult" now so the latter word doesn't get associated with them.
10:22:53 <oerjan> sorry, i'm grumpy. shouldn't argue in this state.
10:23:18 <oklopol> k why don't you go ahead and ignore that
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10:47:54 <Taneb> My quest to play on my PS2 is further hampered by having no way to save my game
10:52:41 <oerjan> maybe this is what will push someone to invent time travel
10:55:08 <nortti> Taneb: you don't have memory cards?
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11:05:39 <zzo38> Any suggestions for CsoundMML?
11:05:55 <zzo38> Anyone writing music? If so, you can know
11:07:08 <zzo38> shachaf: My time has come? To do what? Jump in the lake?
11:08:57 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: To jump in the lake... in the dark... and somehow to get back out again and get dry again.).
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12:20:27 <ais523> (I asked Rodney and tried to ask heptagram, but it wasn't here; I thought you didn't want to be left out)
12:22:27 <shachaf> Come on, at least learn the bot's language!
12:22:54 <ais523> shachaf: well it replies on the first thing you say when you enter a chanel
12:22:59 <ais523> regardless of what it is
12:23:08 <ais523> so I thought I'd use the same format I did with the other bots, which follow the same rule
12:24:15 <shachaf> @ask ais523 thanks for being considerate
12:29:48 <Sgeo> @ask Sgeo hello?
12:29:59 <Sgeo> But that wasn't a statement, it was a question?
12:31:25 <Phantom_Hoover> that, meanwhile, was a statement with a question mark at the end
12:32:33 <Sgeo> Would it be funny to ask a question with a period at the end.
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13:04:38 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: basically everything's a category
13:04:39 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:04:46 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 40m 31s ago: thanks for being considerate
13:05:07 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: we caused some consternation a while back when we discovered that our representations of asynchronous programming languages /weren't/ categories
13:33:51 <Sgeo> "dup pprint write " dup.... dammit
13:35:32 <Sgeo> " dup pprint write " dup pprint write
13:35:41 <Sgeo> That's almost too easy
13:36:30 <Sgeo> " [ pprint ] [ write ] bi " [ pprint ] [ write ] bi
13:43:27 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/RLZkoq
13:43:35 <Sgeo> Wasn't quite expecting removing the space like that to work
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15:26:19 <Deewiant> http://www.cs.hut.fi/~travis/data-structures/matti.pdf my mushspace slides are apparently online now; they mostly concern R-trees so they might not be that interesting, but anyway.
15:30:18 <ais523> <Phantom_Hoover> in any way at all? ← they didn't compose correctly, so they didn't obey all the axioms
15:31:30 <MDude> Looking mushspace, I find sich things as mosh space, musespace, and at least twice "how mush space".
15:31:54 <Deewiant> It's not finished yet so it's not online anywhere.
15:32:46 <ais523> well, yeah, but you have to add a bunch of junk just to make things fit
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16:28:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, I learned it from the video link I posted too.
16:32:35 <Deewiant> fizzie: Ah, I didn't realize that was related and/or missed it, sorry.
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16:35:02 <fizzie> I do have a vague feeling it might've been elsewhere too. At least there was a number of games with a SETUP.EXE or some-such to configure sound effect/music settings.
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18:29:54 <ais523> btw, has your test finished yet?
18:30:02 <ais523> it must be one of the longest tests ever
18:30:38 <oerjan> bah he finished it a long time ago, this is _another_ test
18:30:53 <AnotherTest> Perl developers tend to take a longer time
18:31:28 <AnotherTest> The truth, however, is that I lack inspiration as to finding a good pseudonym
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18:45:54 <ais523> AnotherTest: it's not taken, it'll be fine
18:45:58 <ais523> might cause some tab-complete issues
18:46:15 <ais523> but when I tab-complete my own name it's usually in #nethack and I keep pinging AimHere by mistake
18:46:41 <AnotherTest> Maybe, _ais523, that wouldn't cause any problems I think?
18:47:03 <ais523> there was an ehird` (elliott) and an ehird (not elliott) simultaneously for a while
18:47:07 <Sgeo> AimHere, that name sounds very familiar
18:47:14 <ais523> although nowadays, ehird without the ` is elliott
18:47:31 <Sgeo> Oh, apparently that person is in #clojure
18:47:37 <ais523> AnotherTest: that is a clash
18:49:47 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to _ais523.
18:50:19 <ais523> _ais523: apparently doing that pings me
18:50:20 <oerjan> that's actually a clash in irssi
18:50:37 <ais523> in fact, everything you say pings me now
18:50:53 <_ais523> Yay! Unlimited attention from ais523
18:51:05 <_ais523> Guess what? You just got pinged!
18:51:17 <ais523> I could put you on ignore if it got annoying
18:51:33 <_ais523> I'll just go for ais524 I think
18:51:41 -!- _ais523 has changed nick to ais524.
18:51:59 * ais523 catches oerjan in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/
18:52:09 <ais523> oerjan: I've been waiting for /years/ to do that when you weren't expecting it
18:52:26 <oerjan> i'll admit i wasn't expecting it
18:52:32 <ais523> but most of the times I remembered, it was because the conversation was on a subject that might make you expect it (that's why I was reminded)
18:52:32 <elliott> @ask zzo38 Is http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Munching_Squares.pushem&curid=3424&diff=35104&oldid=21006 a correct change?
18:52:39 <oerjan> mostly because i haven't seen it for years
18:52:39 <ais523> and the other couple of times you weren't here
18:53:10 <ais524> ais523: It's not fair. You have a prime number and I don't
18:53:46 <ais523> is there any base in which 524 is prime?
18:54:08 <Bike> what a question.
18:54:49 <ais523> it'd have to be odd, and at least base 6 or it'd be missing the required digits, and so at least base 7
18:54:57 <oerjan> > [readInt b (const True) digitToInt "524" | b <- [6..]]
18:54:59 <lambdabot> [[(196,"")],[(263,"")],[(340,"")],[(427,"")],[(524,"")],[(631,"")],[(748,""...
18:55:39 <ais523> fizzie: did you check, or did you have it memorized?
18:55:44 <oerjan> > [fst.head$readInt b (const True) digitToInt "524" | b <- [6..]]
18:55:46 <lambdabot> [196,263,340,427,524,631,748,875,1012,1159,1316,1483,1660,1847,2044,2251,24...
18:55:48 <ais523> ais524: see, your nick is prime after all
18:57:11 <olsner> hmm, 1847 and 2251 are also prime
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18:57:29 <ais523> is there a primality checker in lambdabot's standard library?
18:57:51 <oerjan> not to my knowledge...
18:57:57 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `isPrint' (imported from Data.Char)
18:57:57 <ais523> (which IIRC is a superset of Haskell's standard library?)
18:57:58 <ais524> ais523: Yes, but it does it form a twin prime like yours?
18:58:04 <ais523> it seems like the sort of thing that would be there
18:58:27 <elliott> 10:19:13 * oerjan swats Sgeo for bringing this here -----###
18:58:42 <elliott> oerjan: well he already brings the rest of every programming channel here.
18:58:58 -!- ais523 has changed nick to this.
18:59:01 <this> not registered!
18:59:16 -!- ais524 has changed nick to ais523.
18:59:18 <this> now I can do Java implementations
18:59:37 -!- ais523 has changed nick to Guest65326.
18:59:37 -!- Guest65326 has quit (Killed (card.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))).
18:59:37 -!- this has changed nick to ais523.
18:59:50 <oerjan> ais523: clearly primes are not categorical enough for haskell
18:59:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:59:59 <ais523> I was only trying to renick them
19:00:04 <ais523> AnotherTest: sorry, wrong command
19:00:08 <ais523> I was trying to force-change your nick
19:00:15 <ais523> rather than boot you off altogether
19:00:19 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to ais524.
19:00:23 <elliott> ais523: the latter is far more fun
19:00:28 -!- ais524 has changed nick to ais521.
19:00:36 <ais521> Now we form a prime twin?
19:00:49 <ais523> actually Freenode changed that a while ago
19:00:54 <ais523> it used to just force renick
19:01:13 <oerjan> evil mirror twins? i think this must be against the prime directive
19:01:57 <ais523> OK, history question: has there ever actually in real life been a pair of identical twins, except one is good and one is evil?
19:02:09 <ais521> Chances are rather high
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19:02:23 <ais521> ais523: for what does ais stand anyway?
19:02:25 <ais523> I think they're rather lower
19:02:45 <ais523> ais521: it doesn't really matter, does it?
19:02:53 <oerjan> i guess alfred göring wasn't a twin...
19:02:56 <MDude> The real question is wether there was such a case, and the main visible difference is that only one of them has a beard.
19:03:12 <ais521> ais523: It doesn't no, oh btw, 521 is a lucas prime and 523 is not (take that, ha!)
19:03:25 <ais523> ais521: the 523 was randomly selected
19:03:33 <ais523> apparently, discordians find this hilarious
19:03:36 <ais521> And it's in a primitive Pythagorean triple!
19:03:37 <MDude> It's be less likely anyway.
19:03:50 <ais523> ais521: do you have a beard?
19:04:12 * elliott wonders if ais521 is going to continue using a nick so confusing
19:04:19 <ais523> elliott: it's not confusing for me
19:04:24 <ais523> I know whether I've said a line or not
19:04:25 * ais521 has already registered it
19:04:38 <elliott> hmm, maybe I can make my client force-rename nicks
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19:05:02 <MDude> Well at least if you stick with that, we won't have to worry about you shuffling around like you jsut did.
19:05:16 <ais523> elliott: how? if you don't have admin-level access to the servers (don't think even opers can forcibly rename…)
19:05:26 <elliott> ais523: just for me, I mean
19:05:31 <Bike> i think he means making his client display a different name
19:05:43 <MDude> I'm pretty sure you switched places at least one?
19:05:47 <Bike> i'm pretty sure irssi is configurable enough to do that.
19:05:50 <ais521> ais523: 2^251 - 1 is a Mersenne prime, aha!
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19:06:11 <ais523> so (2^250)(2^251-1) is a perfect number
19:06:31 <ais523> all even perfect numbers follow that pattern (that's actually quite easy to prove)
19:06:46 <ais523> odd perfect numbers aren't known to exist, although nobody's yet managed to conclusively rule them out
19:07:49 <oerjan> they have to be pretty large, though
19:08:02 <elliott> hypothesis: there is exactly one odd perfect number
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19:08:16 <elliott> and it's hideously gigantic
19:08:47 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: that's not logically possible
19:08:54 <elliott> all integers are computable
19:09:09 <Bike> oh geez, we don't even know if there are infinitely many mersenne primes.
19:09:26 <Bike> busy beaver is a /function/
19:09:30 <elliott> Bike: there's 445892348932 exactly.
19:09:32 <Bike> which is how it's uncomputable
19:09:41 * elliott 's fundamental mathematical principle: everything is as ugly, awkward, and imperfect as possible for no reason
19:09:45 <Bike> but yeah this is the weirdest math ignorance i've seen since euler-mascheroni
19:09:58 <ais521> they went over 10^300 for finding perfect numbers
19:10:00 <elliott> guys i think we are going to dent Phantom_Hoover's ego so hard it might break his spine maybe we should stop
19:10:06 <ais521> well according to http://oddperfect.org/
19:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ok i appear to have said some things without remembering them
19:11:00 <Bike> "is it transcendent?" "dunno" "is it constructible?" "well, uh" "is it rational" "look i don't know okay"
19:11:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't remember everything I've ever said
19:11:28 * ais523 tries to remember something that they don't remember they said
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19:12:08 <Bike> that site says (2801^79-1) is factored, but doesn't give the factors. assholes.
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19:12:44 <elliott> truely a brakethrough...............
19:12:46 <oerjan> elliott: ghosts don't have spines hth
19:13:25 <elliott> oerjan: have you ever seen one
19:15:09 <oerjan> past life memories, obviously
19:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> (just for the purposes of clarification i think i meant that its existence was nonconstructively proven_
19:15:28 <Bike> maybe phantom is some other kind of phantom
19:17:20 <oerjan> hm... does he have a good singing voice?
19:17:24 <olsner> the phantom probably has a spine
19:18:43 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: if you can nonconstructively prove an integer exists then you can constructively prove it exists...
19:18:52 <elliott> unless I severely misunderstand something
19:19:55 <oerjan> i don't think that follows
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19:24:22 <elliott> yeah the algorithm I had in mind didn't work :(
19:24:35 <elliott> if the property is decidable it holds though, right?
19:25:42 <oerjan> not unless you have a constructive upper bound
19:27:24 <elliott> my thought was that you could just loop through all the integers and eventually get to one that satisfies the property. but I suppose the problem is that the integer could very well just not actually exist
19:27:51 <oerjan> look up omega inconsistency
19:28:28 <elliott> yeah, I know there are weirdnesses like this in general
19:28:34 <elliott> just hard to get an intuitive grasp for how fucked up it is :P
19:34:18 <elliott> Deewiant: "Overlapping isn’t necessary but for the scope of this presentation it is"
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19:43:29 <pikhq_> Gregor: Good episode this week.
19:52:27 <oerjan> mammal linguistic programming
19:53:09 * oerjan suddenly realizes a new interpretation of "Phantom_Hoover"
19:53:57 <oerjan> clearly you're the ghost of a pony hth
19:54:15 * oerjan waits for the NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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19:58:43 <olsner> I guess the shock hasn't subsided far enough for him to be able to type yet
20:02:34 <elliott> you can't type with hooves...
20:03:19 <olsner> "your hands are now hooves"
20:04:15 <Fiora> everypony knows they don't have computers in equestria anywyas
20:06:51 <Deewiant> elliott: Basically I realized kinda late that I should be able to get rid of it and simplify lots of things :-P
20:07:51 <elliott> Deewiant: I should write a benchmark to try and get pathological performance out of R-trees
20:07:55 <elliott> So Shiro 2 can beat you on it.
20:10:29 <Deewiant> Hmm... you need to make every single non-leaf node overlap with the coordinates you're looking up and then make sure that only the last leaf tried actually contains them, or something close enough to that to be called "pathological".
20:10:34 <Deewiant> I'm not sure how possible that is. :-P
20:11:53 <elliott> Hey, you got worst case O(n), I'll find it somewhere!!
20:12:33 <Deewiant> If you come up with something I can switch to R+ trees which should have zero overlap if no leaves overlap... I think.
20:13:12 <Deewiant> Well, they have zero overlap anyway, they just duplicate info.
20:13:31 <elliott> Deewiant: That sounds interesting, so clearly I would be doing you a service by giving you a reason to write that stuff.
20:13:53 <Deewiant> Well, it's on my agenda to try a bunch of different data structures for this anyway.
20:14:55 <Deewiant> Getting rid of the "scope of this presentation" overlapping will get rid of T-ordering which will massively lower the difficulty of trying a new data structure, and it might improve performance greatly anyway so I need to do that first-ish.
20:15:48 <Deewiant> 4. bucket PR-CIF k-d tree a.k.a ordinary HV/VH tree
20:15:50 <Deewiant> 5. balanced 4d k-d tree with representative points
20:16:32 <Deewiant> That's my data structures todo.
20:17:28 <elliott> Deewiant: I have a feeling nobody has figured out how to do this stuff efficiently and persistently :(
20:17:29 <fizzie> elliott: [10:54:33] <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_A1GNx0M9M everything is in the internets nowadays.
20:18:15 <Deewiant> elliott: Nobody has figured out how to do my stuff efficiently in a dynamic context. :-P
20:19:22 <Deewiant> elliott: Your stuff is basically just persistent key-value stores, unless you go the AABB route in which case your stuff is my stuff + persistence which is definitely not figured out, yes.
20:19:46 <elliott> Deewiant: Right,I'd like some kind of properly-spatial structure.
20:20:08 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't think any kind of hash map will scale well to Funge-98.
20:20:38 <elliott> Something like a hash map storing spatial regions with a quad tree for the regions themselves might be good, but I'd prefer something much fancier in the end.
20:24:17 <fizzie> elliott: It doesn't get any better than that.
20:24:37 <Deewiant> elliott: You can always use the generic techniques to make an arbitrary data structure persistent.
20:25:06 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't know of any generic way to make an arbitrary data structure persistent without hurting performance...
20:25:15 <elliott> Isn't that actually known impossible?
20:25:25 <Deewiant> elliott: Well, maybe it won't hurt persistence too much. :-P
20:25:46 <elliott> Well, it's more that I don't know of any non-totally-naive-and-useless way to do it at all ;P
20:25:53 <Deewiant> And I can't remember, maybe there's a proven O(log n) lower bound.
20:26:00 <elliott> (I'm sure there are ways, though.)
20:26:03 <elliott> I think oerjan knows things about this.
20:26:08 <Deewiant> elliott: Watch lecture 1 http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.851/spring12/lectures/
20:26:39 <elliott> Deewiant: That sounds like work. (Okay, maybe later.)
20:26:57 <Deewiant> And/or read the notes, and read Okasaki etc :-P
20:26:58 <elliott> Clearly deriving persistent structures from mutable ones is the totally wrong way around, though. I have a pride-based type system that doesn't allow you to polish a turd.
20:27:08 <elliott> I have a physical copy of Okasaki! It's just unread.
20:27:18 <elliott> (Anyway I don't think Okasaki systematically derives persistent structures from mutable ones?)
20:27:56 <Deewiant> I also have a physical copy, which is not unread. I'm leafing through it to see if he says anything on-topic.
20:29:25 <Deewiant> He refers to path copying and then mentions some newer persistence methods which aren't purely functional.
20:29:39 <olsner> iirc he does make persistent red-black (and other, splay?) trees where instead of log n mutable updates you just create log n new tree nodes
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20:36:55 <zzo38> This time frigg was on again
20:36:55 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:37:02 <lambdabot> elliott asked 1h 44m 30s ago: Is http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Munching_Squares.pushem&curid=3424&diff=35104&oldid=21006 a correct change?
20:37:07 <oerjan> i have a physical copy of Okasaki! he keeps trying to escape his cage though, may have to put him down.
20:37:48 <oerjan> i mean, i know nothing!
20:39:12 <zzo38> elliott: What was changed?
20:40:28 <Deewiant> zzo38: Compare http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Munching_Squares.pushem&oldid=21006 and http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Munching_Squares.pushem&oldid=35104
20:40:29 <elliott> now the "Munching_Squares.pushem =
20:40:38 <FreeFull> How do I give ghci type allocations anyway
20:41:01 <FreeFull> I have found code that it fails on without a type annotation, and it's annoying
20:41:38 <zzo38> elliott: I don't think it matters; it is OK either way
20:41:43 <oerjan> > let f :: Int; f = 3 in f
20:42:11 <oerjan> FreeFull: except without the "in f" part
20:42:18 <Bike> > 3 :: Fractional
20:42:19 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to `GHC.Real.Fractional'
20:42:59 * oerjan detects some type class confusion
20:43:18 <FreeFull> oerjan: The code that fails without a type annotation is pop = state $ \(x:xs) -> (x,xs)
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20:43:35 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Monomorphism_restriction
20:43:37 <Deewiant> FreeFull: :set -XNoMonomorphismRestriction
20:43:51 <FreeFull> Funnily enough, similar code for push works without a type annotation for some reason
20:44:00 <shachaf> monqy: Good afternoon, human.
20:44:04 <oerjan> FreeFull: darn the others are fast
20:44:27 <shachaf> FreeFull: It's less funny once you read the link.
20:46:28 <Bike> oh sweet, i haven't seen a wiki page in talk mode for a while
20:46:39 <FreeFull> Also I trust #esoteric more with haskell than #haskell
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20:47:35 <elliott> Bike: we have http://esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas, which is in mess mode
20:48:00 <Bike> yeah i've seen that, most of it is more boring than this haskell page though
20:48:08 <Bike> "A language based on the idea of communism. There would be only one great editor (a wiki or similar) and all programmers would write only one big program that does everything" e.g.
20:48:52 <elliott> yes it's not the best page
20:48:55 <oerjan> hm i think we discussed that a bit
20:49:41 <Bike> Though I did learn about Chaitin's "let's compile to diophantines!" paper, so that makes up for it i suppose.
20:50:51 <Bike> "Known laws of physics are expressable with equations, but what if there are yet unknown laws of physics that can be expressed only as programming languages?" and some of it's just pretty amusing
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20:54:10 <FreeFull> All programming constructs can be expressed with mathematics
20:55:02 <Bike> (it's actually intercal's mingle operator)
20:55:49 <ais523> mingle's simpler than select
20:56:20 <ais523> you can express it as writing the numbers in binary, interpreting them as base 4, multiplying the LHS by 2, adding, then converting the resulting base-4 number back to binary
21:03:45 <FreeFull> select * from esoteric_languages
21:04:03 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:07:26 <shachaf> @ty ($ []) . appEndo . getConst . traverse (Const . Endo . (:))
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21:09:28 <lambdabot> `Data.Foldable.toList' (imported from Data.Foldable),
21:09:36 <oerjan> :t Data.Foldable.toList
21:10:12 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Data.Foldable.Foldable'
21:10:31 <lambdabot> Source not found. stty: unknown mode: doofus
21:11:18 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
21:12:04 <oerjan> @src isn't very reliable
21:12:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. BOB says: You seem to have forgotten your passwd, enter another!
21:12:56 <Sgeo> Am I likely to understand implementations of exact real arithmetic in Haskell well enough to port them to Factor?
21:13:22 <Bike> you mean computable reals or fixed point or rationals or continued fractions or pixies or what
21:13:27 <ais523> Sgeo: they're not that bad
21:13:34 <ais523> I translated one to Verity
21:13:35 <Sgeo> Bike, computable reals
21:13:44 <ais523> (that's the program that took a couple of days to calculate 4 binary digits of pi)
21:13:50 <Bike> yeah they're not that bad
21:14:41 <FreeFull> I reaaally like the state monad
21:14:59 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
21:15:05 <shachaf> Do you like it enough to call it by its true name?
21:15:17 <shachaf> Hint: Its true name doesn't involve the word "monad".
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21:15:45 <Deewiant> Actually its true name is "steve".
21:16:29 <shachaf> Steve doesn't like the state.
21:16:33 <shachaf> Steve: Enemy of the State.
21:16:35 <elliott> Deewiant: " a completely different implementation using
21:16:36 <elliott> only a box for the source code and a hash table everywhere
21:16:41 <elliott> Deewiant: I think this is evil.
21:17:09 <Deewiant> elliott: What part? I wasn't expecting it to become public so I didn't name it as cfunge
21:17:26 <elliott> Deewiant: Oh, I thought it was an implementation you had written yourself for the purpose :D
21:17:51 <Sgeo> When can we expect dfunge?
21:18:22 <Bike> after c is p, don't you know anything about language etymologies!
21:19:33 <fizzie> The programming language after C will be called also C; then B and I, respectively. They're named after CCBI, C's precursor.
21:20:23 <ais523> clearly the /best/ implementation is just to use an array and, upon out-of-bound writes, retroactively change how large it was
21:20:32 <ais523> (actually don't, that would be hilariously inefficient)
21:21:10 <elliott> Deewiant: How big is a 32-bit Fungespace again?
21:21:31 <elliott> I... suppose that's obvious.
21:21:35 <elliott> I forget what cells are though.
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21:22:05 <elliott> So it's "only" 64 exabytes.
21:22:14 <elliott> What's the biggest RAM a supercomputer has these days?
21:22:18 <Deewiant> elliott: "A Funge-98 interpreter, ideally, has an addressing range equal to that of its cell size."
21:22:42 <Deewiant> elliott: So you can change it up a bit if you want.
21:23:07 <elliott> Deewiant: But the compatbiility(tm)!
21:23:35 <Deewiant> You could do a 16-bit one, it fits in 8 gigabytes.
21:23:42 <Deewiant> Or 16 if you want 32-bit cells.
21:24:20 <Sgeo> Googling for Befunge TDRS is useless
21:24:40 <elliott> Deewiant: Does Mycology depend on >=32-bit cells?
21:24:46 <Bike> hm i just got my compiler to derive a range type where the integers take three lines to print. sweet
21:25:01 <Sgeo> No, Google, I did not mean to search for Befunge teds
21:25:08 <Deewiant> elliott: It doesn't fit in less than 11 bits but otherwise it should be fine.
21:25:27 <Bike> apparently there was a TED talk about mushroom superheroics.
21:25:49 <fizzie> Titan's total RAM size is 710 terabytes (598 for CPUs, 112 for GPUs) but maybe that doesn't quite count.
21:26:01 <elliott> fizzie: Not quite big enough.
21:26:02 <Deewiant> elliott: Of course it might do some computations with bigger numbers, not sure about that.
21:27:04 <Deewiant> elliott: Note also that e.g. the underload interpreter ripped from fungot which is my Real-World Benchmark™ routinely writes arrays bigger than 64K.
21:27:05 <fungot> Deewiant: the " who occasionally set the sky on fire" 8-o cries what.... :d
21:27:35 <Sgeo> I want to see a Befunge-98 interpreter that passes Mycology but deliberately does not follow the spec completely
21:27:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you're using the underload.b98 from me, it wasn't exactly "ripped from fungot" but more like "the same thing that was later stuffed into fungot".
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21:27:49 <fungot> fizzie: it is non-trivial to convert to tri-graphs right? got that? i'll tell you what went wrong. so to as a variable
21:27:53 <elliott> That's easy, just fuck up one instruction for a specific constant Mycology doesn't test.
21:28:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Eventually Funge-98 interpreters will special-case Mycology and fungot.
21:28:15 <fungot> elliott: hey! it's too slow for lots of things i hate more than program where i can get really confusing. i don'
21:28:18 <fungot> elliott: my thoughts exactly. there is probably some xmodmap magickery that can remap caps lock to ctrl
21:28:32 <Deewiant> elliott: Then I need to write my own benchmarks. :-(
21:29:23 <elliott> Deewiant: Will special case those, too. In fact they will use the cunning trick of special-casing every Funge-98 program.
21:29:26 <fizzie> Eventually Funge-98 interpreters will pop up a Clippy dialog saying "It looks like you're trying to run fungot! Would you like to run a functionally identical IRC bot written in C instead?"
21:29:27 <fungot> fizzie: hmm that sounds like a good way to ask this in a more effective way
21:29:32 <elliott> Deewiant: Does mushspace support n-dimensional stuff?
21:29:36 <elliott> ISTR you saying no & me being disappointed.
21:29:43 <Deewiant> elliott: In theory yes, in practice no.
21:29:57 <Deewiant> ("In theory" for an implementation doesn't make much sense I guess.)
21:30:21 <Deewiant> elliott: It does 1-3, since those are the ones actually specced in the standard.
21:30:25 <Bike> fizzie: a program that tries to prove equivalence of C and Befunge programs suddenly seems interesting/hilariously pointless.
21:30:42 <elliott> Deewiant: What's the theory?
21:31:43 <Sgeo> Should I attempt to write an Underload interpreter in Factor?
21:32:05 <Deewiant> elliott: It doesn't do anything that's somehow inherently dimension-limited. The worst is that in some cases I've written just the 2-3 nested loops required for up to 3 dimensions instead of the general recursive version.
21:32:49 <elliott> Deewiant: All that means is "your data structure can theoretically be extended" :P
21:32:57 <elliott> I'm thinking something that actually lets you pick the dimensions N at runtime.
21:33:16 <Deewiant> elliott: You could do that too, by making everything dynamically allocated.
21:33:25 <elliott> Sgeo: so how's your clojure monads library
21:33:41 <Bike> Sgeo: that seems like it would be ridiculously easy?
21:33:42 <Deewiant> Other than generalizing the mentioned nested loops and such, it shouldn't end up changing much of the code.
21:33:43 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, it could do fancy stuff if you pick N in {1,2,3}.
21:33:53 <Sgeo> Bike, probably
21:34:05 <Deewiant> elliott: Right, and it could be done, but I can't be arsed. :-P
21:34:06 <Bike> i mean factor already has quotation and probably eval
21:34:12 <elliott> Deewiant: In Shiro 2 I'll probably write specialised implementations for those dimensions and a general, slower one for N-dimensional stuff, and have the code pick which one to use in a typeclassy disptah manner.
21:34:16 <Deewiant> elliott: Just about nobody runs anything other than 2 dimensions anyway.
21:34:33 <Sgeo> I'm just a bit worried about parsing
21:34:47 <Bike> parsing... what
21:34:56 <elliott> Deewiant: IMO publish an RFC on how dimensions >=3 (or was it >=4) should be represented in source files.
21:35:09 <Sgeo> Bike, parentheses
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21:35:17 <Bike> that's. really not hard?
21:35:41 <Deewiant> elliott: And no. Hell, I don't want anybody to do that. My string loading code is complicated enough as-is.
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21:36:35 <Deewiant> It needs a full rethink followed by a partial rewrite but it's annoyingly nontrivial. :-( Or then I'm just doing it stupidly.
21:36:40 <elliott> Deewiant: You wouldn't have to change your loading code, since you don't support said dimensions.
21:36:57 <Deewiant> elliott: I'd have more reason to support them if somebody did that. :-P
21:37:55 <elliott> Deewiant: Say I were to write a little 5-dimensional test program...
21:38:23 * elliott gets an idea for a delightfully feral fingerprint.
21:38:35 <Deewiant> Changing dimensionality at runtime? :-P
21:38:56 <elliott> wouldn't be that hard to implement really
21:39:03 <elliott> you could just build an entirely new fungespace
21:39:05 <elliott> and throw away the old one
21:43:48 <fizzie> Can you specify a projection matrix from the old one to the new one?
21:44:26 <fizzie> That could make for some pretty nifty code. Plus you could flip the whole code upside-down or what have you by DIMSing from 2 to 2.
21:46:03 <elliott> fizzie: I was thinking something like that, yes.
21:46:18 <elliott> I... need to make sure Deewiant is reasonably likely to implement it first though.
21:46:45 <elliott> fizzie: (Is there a matrix fingerprint already? Code reuse and all.)
21:46:49 <FreeFull> I'm thinking, a funge program can be viewed as a long self-intersecting branching line
21:47:29 <elliott> Deewiant: It sounds e-z. The fingerprint would work even if you only support a finite number of dimensions anyway.
21:47:37 <oerjan> DIMSing from 2 to 1...
21:49:53 <fizzie> elliott: 3DSP (a RCS speciality) does some very limited linear algebra that's strictly specialized for R^3 and R^(3x3) and on FPSP values only, so I suppose that counts as a "no".
21:49:59 <Deewiant> elliott: But I'd want to do it efficiently. Plus hali will be like ccbi2 in that it'll have completely separate code paths for the supported dimensions, so switching from one to the other would involve something like a longjmp plus converting all the auxiliary crap used in each dimensionality.
21:50:22 <elliott> Deewiant: You prefer no implementation at all to an inefficient but simple implementation?
21:50:29 <Sgeo> Just realized my "brilliant" plan might not work
21:50:40 <Sgeo> Supposed to know stack effect at compile time usually
21:50:47 <Deewiant> elliott: I prefer this not being specced to having to implement it efficiently. :-P
21:50:48 <monqy> what plan and how is it brilliant
21:51:13 <monqy> "brilliant", excuse me
21:51:21 <Sgeo> To just use the Factor equivalents and run them inside a with-datastack
21:51:43 <Deewiant> elliott: Also this could be used to stack overflow the interpreter if I do the latter longjmpy bit simply, i.e. by just calling the main interpretation function again from the instruction.
21:51:54 <elliott> Deewiant: But if I know the only thing stopping you from considering implementing it is the fact that you believe this will stop me writing a specification (because of my stated desire to have such a consideration before writing a specification), then I'll specify it anyway, which will be equivalent to negating the reason you had to object.
21:52:20 <elliott> i.e. you think it's (YouIntendToImplement -> ISpecify), but actually it's more like ((ISpecify -> YouIntendToImplement) -> ISpecify).
21:53:22 <Deewiant> Well, YouIntendToImplement depends on the spec and how much use it'll see. :-P
21:54:04 <elliott> How many fingerprints get used beyond their test programs exactly? :P
21:54:48 <elliott> So a good test program must count as sufficient use?
21:55:28 <oerjan> Sgeo: you should think carefully about how you'll implement S
21:55:57 <oerjan> it's the main thing that will trip up a naive translation
21:56:35 <fizzie> STRN and FILE are ones I think see a lot of real-world use in the professional Funge-98 programming circuit.
21:56:43 <Sgeo> Yeah, it means I need to store the actual code on the stack
21:56:47 <Deewiant> Using FILE instead of i and o is so lame.
21:56:55 <fizzie> i and o are the lame ones.
21:57:07 <Sgeo> Or, I guess technically there are alternatives
21:57:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, professional? You are kidding me?
21:57:17 <elliott> Hmm, 2^32 bits in 512 megabytes.
21:57:32 <Deewiant> elliott: It's more like: if it's used in something that isn't a test/joke/whatever program, YouIntendToImplement gets a significant boost. Otherwise it's not much of a difference. :-P
21:57:33 <elliott> I was hoping I could have a fingerprint instruction that just gives you a bitmask of the implementation's supported dimensions.
21:57:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you know, people who write Funge-98 for living. (Yes, I'm just joking.)
21:57:44 <elliott> Since I don't like something like "either a fixed list or 'I support anything'".
21:57:48 <elliott> (What if you only support even dimensions?)
21:57:49 <Sgeo> Can someone please fix Vorpal's humor detection circuits? They seem to be fried.
21:58:06 <elliott> Maybe I'll just mandate implementations support arbitrary dimensions!
21:58:11 <elliott> That would be the Funge-Flexible thing to do.
21:58:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, and of course since it's the Internet age nowadays, SOCK (NSCK?) are certainly very mission-critical.
21:58:30 <oerjan> Sgeo: they've always been fried; we cannot find spare parts
21:58:33 <Deewiant> elliott: For DIMS? Something wrong with reflecting on an unsupported argument?
21:58:51 <Deewiant> fizzie: You should use i and o for those too, and run on Plan 9.
21:58:54 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I never installed any
21:59:28 <elliott> Deewiant: Well, DIMS should ideally be a fingerprint for dealing with fungespace dimensions in general.
21:59:37 <elliott> Deewiant: Querying which dimensions an implementation supports seems like a reasonable operation.
22:00:29 <Deewiant> elliott: What would it be useful for? At most I'd think you'd want to query if a particular dimensionality is supported.
22:00:44 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can't read only part of a file with i, and I can't have fungot load the whole babble models, it'd take far too much memory.
22:00:45 <fungot> fizzie: does moshimoshi have revision control and rss?) and a single ' binary vector' type ( with their research, the latest gambit scheme? or some other implementation?
22:01:27 <elliott> Deewiant: e.g. SuperMycology++ Double Extra Mega Plus has a routine to generate a test program (just with some control flow and some odd movement deltas and testing out fingerprints that write to/read from fungespace and so on) of arbitrary dimensionality.
22:01:44 <elliott> When an implementation only supports a small, fixed number of dimensions, it wants to test them exhaustively.
22:01:54 <elliott> But if you support any old thing it'll just pick some random dimensionalities and try those.
22:02:03 <elliott> It seems like useful meta-info in the style of "y", anyway.
22:02:20 <elliott> Even if it's useless you can still write a Funge Interpreter Diagnostics(tm) program that uses it to print stats.
22:02:27 <Deewiant> Well, good luck with that in general. :-P
22:02:59 <Deewiant> I think you have to mandate the same thing as y tries to mandate and fails: either an integer or arbitrary.
22:03:17 <Deewiant> Or a pair of integers in this case, I think.
22:03:30 <Deewiant> So a range [a,b] or [1,infinity).
22:03:52 <elliott> Maybe I can make a "META" fingerprint for interpreter information and stuff it in there instead.
22:03:57 <elliott> Then DIMS can be pure and perfect.
22:04:12 * elliott wonders what a MTRX will look like and whether it is worth speccing one to base DIMS off of.
22:04:55 <hagb4rd> Deewiant: were you hannging around irc.german-elite.net..years ago? can this be?
22:05:27 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay, I guess they just might fit, assuming an efficient implementation with very low per-cell fungespace overhead. The irc style would be 196702412 cells in binary mode, and that could be "compressed" at load-time by making the multibyte integers single cells. But swapping styles might be quite slow; and the total set is 655372751 bytes, that'd be a bit iffy on one gig of RAM.
22:05:35 <hagb4rd> ok.. so it was another deewiant
22:06:13 <fizzie> (Curiously enough, all of fungot-babble would fit on a regular data CD.)
22:06:13 <fungot> fizzie: 1 ihope: daemon pager bf c compiler. :p like i heard last night.
22:06:20 <elliott> fizzie: You could split the babblers into multiple files.
22:07:01 <fizzie> I could put each byte in a separate file and then I'd have i that can read an arbitrary byte. That sounds like an idea.
22:07:08 <fizzie> (But yes, I suppose I *could*.)
22:07:22 <fizzie> (I mean, do a more sensible thing, that is.)
22:07:46 <elliott> I don't think fizzie is capable of doing something sensible.
22:07:55 <fizzie> There are only 600329 free inodes on the filesystem, I don't think I can make each byte a file. :/
22:07:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: If you can have 4 bytes in a cell instead of making each char a cell, it's pretty much that ~650 megabytes of RAM with my newer stuff, which doesn't seem like "far too much" to me.
22:08:21 <Deewiant> (I don't suggest CCBI2 any more though, given some of the bugs I've found in mushspace which should apply to it as well.)
22:08:23 <fizzie> It's a reasonable fraction of the total, though.
22:09:04 <elliott> fizzie: (What interpreter does fungot currently use? cfunge still?)
22:09:04 <fungot> elliott: unoptimized. i don't want the music industry, jazz barely registers on the processor and move it to a better language
22:09:14 <Deewiant> elliott: Some old version of cfunge, IIRC.
22:09:16 <elliott> jazz barely registers on the processor :D
22:09:25 <Deewiant> elliott: And some bugs. I can't remember.
22:10:08 <Deewiant> I did an almost-full rewrite of the string loading algorithm, I can't remember what exactly was wrong with the original
22:10:44 <Deewiant> Same for get_next_in which finds the linewise next allocated cell in the given bounds, IIRC
22:10:57 <Deewiant> And some smaller stuff somewhere, probably
22:11:36 <elliott> I forget what bugs Shiro had
22:12:02 <Deewiant> elliott: http://sprunge.us/dXfb
22:12:13 <Deewiant> Current git diff in CCBI, I stopped updating it at some point
22:13:33 <elliott> What does \n without "" even mean?
22:13:56 <elliott> Deewiant: Also: Mangling LLVM bytecode to remove asserts?
22:14:10 <Deewiant> But I think it stopped working at some point or was deprecated or whatever.
22:14:28 <Deewiant> elliott: Not my fault the compiler's "generate no asserts" mode still generated asserts.
22:14:51 <Deewiant> Same for adding alwaysinline with sed because the compiler can't.
22:16:18 <Sgeo> I don't know if it's normal to feel a need to use tuples in Factor to maintain some semblance of sanity
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22:21:11 <Deewiant> I hope Lumpio- read the news on archlinux.org, or he'll be in a bit of trouble.
22:28:29 <Fiora> I think it's a thing you use to tell a thread to do nothing for a while
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22:31:32 <shachaf> @ty Control.Concurrent.threadDelay
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22:47:03 <Jafet> @google microsleep
22:47:04 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsleep
22:47:05 <lambdabot> Title: Microsleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
22:50:54 <lambdabot> Title: SleepAdjustment.com by iSleep
22:53:39 <Sgeo> My parentheses parsing code is turning out ugly
22:53:40 <lambdabot> http://www.cnx-software.com/2012/02/page/11/
22:54:14 <lambdabot> http://dis.4chan.org/read/lounge/1257876805
22:54:21 <fizzie> Well, that's... better?
22:55:09 <fizzie> No femtosleep or attosleep, and all the picosleeps are real boring.
22:55:39 <lambdabot> http://s100.photobucket.com/albums/m24/macwitcheeze/?action=view¤t=kilosleep.jpg&newest=1
23:02:19 <olsner> hmm, the femto- and atto- prefixes mean 15 and 18 (from Danish), but the following prefixes zepto and yocto mean 7 and 8
23:02:45 <olsner> otoh, I think the four prefixes before that are all synonyms for "small"
23:03:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Excess Flood).
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23:03:54 <Sgeo> And I learn the disadvantages of co-operative multithreading in an interactive environment where I'm likely to write buggy code the hard way :(
23:04:32 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what OS are you using?
23:04:33 <Sgeo> Had to kill -9 Factor
23:04:53 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Kubuntu 10.10, but don't see how that's relevant
23:07:41 <olsner> kubuntu users are 3x more likely to write buggy code in co-operatively multithreaded interactive environments
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23:11:17 <Sgeo> elliott, Phantom_Hoover monqy Fiora: Thing not related to Factor!
23:11:40 <monqy> tbh i was hoping for a thing related to factor
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23:13:41 <Bike> Sgeo: write a morse-code => english translator as your first underfactor program.
23:14:17 <Sgeo> ....Bike's a Homestuck?
23:15:15 <quintopia> i guess ais doesnt want to know how to beat space_hotel
23:15:37 <Fiora> TG: (oh noes you mean hes here?)
23:15:51 <Fiora> bike is a homestuck yes
23:15:56 <elliott> quintopia: is quintopia_a = quintopia_space_hotel
23:16:21 <elliott> well you removed quintopia_a right as you added quintopia_space_hotel
23:16:33 <quintopia> there is a symbolic desc of it on the talk page and stuff
23:16:36 <elliott> and they seem sort of similar??? but quintopia_a is small
23:16:46 <quintopia> yeah they are too similar to have both around on the hill
23:17:28 <quintopia> some day you'll give better feedback on the symbolic description code and i'll encode all the programs
23:17:39 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Thue_Symbol_Sorting_Theorem ugh, I am pretty sure this is a copyvio
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23:33:00 <Sgeo> Got my parens parser working
23:33:03 <Sgeo> It's ugly, but it works
23:37:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i've just realised that i haven't the faintest idea what homestuck is about any more
23:38:32 <Fiora> wikipedia's description of homestuck is actually amazingly succinct
23:38:42 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestuck#Plot
23:38:52 <Fiora> it's the entirety of homestuck explained in 4 paragraphs, like, how is that possible
23:39:42 <Fiora> but yeah I get lost all the time, it doesn't help that hussie jumps all over like crazy so it can take 1000 pages to get back to where we were
23:46:54 <olsner> I'm glad I read that so I never have to read all of homestuck (how long is it anyway?)
23:48:11 <Fiora> it's like ~5-6k pages so far ish? but most of the pages are just like single pictures
23:48:40 <Fiora> it took me like two weeks to catch up with it but I wasn't going very fast, I'm guessing it's like 30-50 hours to read through depending on your speed
23:49:37 <elliott> it takes 15 hours if you're vorpal and read it on a computer without flash in one sitting!!!!!!!!!
23:49:51 <Fiora> geez, not playing all the game sections misses a lot of things <_<;
23:50:01 <Fiora> and wow. one sitting @_@
23:50:12 <Fiora> I stopped periodically just to like... get perspective and figure out what was going on
23:50:18 <Fiora> if it was all in one sitting I wouldn't remember a thing
23:50:35 <elliott> dont worry vorpal doesnt remember a thing either
23:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> But I think now it's not really obvious where the plot is actually /going/, although not in a bad way.
23:52:15 <elliott> (it stopped having a plot months before I stopped reading)
23:52:52 <Phantom_Hoover> To be fair, I suspect it must've been similarly confusing around the start of the Scratch thread.
23:52:56 <Fiora> it still has a plot :<
23:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> We caught up right as the pieces were coming together.
23:55:03 <elliott> (that's not what I mean but whatever)
23:56:25 <Vorpal> <elliott> dont worry vorpal doesnt remember a thing either <-- I do remember some stuff, and also it wasn't quite as long at that point
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00:30:00 <Vorpal> elliott, what was up with that guy in the desert sub-plot btw?
00:30:05 <Vorpal> I never totally got that
00:30:36 <elliott> it... doesn't admit simple explanation if you didn't figure out what was going on all the way through
00:30:50 <Vorpal> elliott, that is like MOST of homestuck :P
00:31:20 <shachaf> elliott: I thought you didn't even read that?
00:34:01 <hagb4rd> what is the idea behind newkitten?
00:34:15 <Sgeo> "However, no known interpreter ever, not even the reference interpreter, seems to have implemented any part of this other than the rules about parentheses, and this is therefore arguably not part of the language."
00:34:22 <Sgeo> Is this talking about the whole " <> [] thing?
00:35:02 <Fiora> Vorpal: http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/WV
00:35:25 <Fiora> http://images.wikia.com/mspaintadventures/images/9/99/00710.gif homestuck.gif
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00:39:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3209
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00:42:10 <Fiora> the wiki is really relaly good for refreshing on characters and events and stuff
00:42:16 <Fiora> I'd be clueless without it
00:43:44 <Vorpal> Fiora, I stopped reading homestuck ages ago
00:44:19 <Fiora> sorry, I thought you were curious or something <_>
00:44:56 * elliott thinks Fiora needs glasses or something for those eyes
00:45:15 * Fiora has glasses and is blind without them
00:45:56 <shachaf> My windows have blinds and are glass without them.
00:46:45 <shachaf> (That's a joke. I don't have any windows.)
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00:46:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and Linux with me?
00:47:03 <shachaf> (The room that I sleep in is dark day-round year-round.)
00:47:26 <elliott> shachaf sleeps in a ditch.
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00:48:04 <kmc> shachaf lives at the center of the earth
00:48:24 <Fiora> does that mean he's weightless right now?
00:48:48 <Fiora> I feel bad for him though, that must be really stressful to life there
00:48:50 <Fiora> all the pressure, I mean
00:49:08 <Vorpal> Fiora, pretty sure he is also dead due to the high pressure
00:49:14 <Taneb> Well, that was fun
00:49:27 <Vorpal> so it is probably rather peaceful
00:49:51 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf is a self-aware system of magnetic fields in the core
00:50:05 <shachaf> Well, that would be too obvious.
00:50:12 <elliott> Fiora: that's actually shachaf's name
00:50:46 <Fiora> they don't work so well :<
00:50:48 <Vorpal> shachaf, that is a seriously cool rot13 though
00:52:22 <Fiora> ... okay sorry I guess this is getting spammy
00:53:03 <Sgeo> (:aSS):aSS working
00:53:10 <Sgeo> (:aS(:^S^:)Sa:):^S^:(:aS(:^S^:)Sa:) not working
00:54:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yeah that doesn't work too well, pretty sure it should be rot14.5 in the Swedish alphabet though. Which doesn't work
00:55:01 <Vorpal> hm traditionally w is not part of our alphabet
00:55:07 <Vorpal> which means it would be plain rot14
00:56:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.135
00:57:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14378
01:04:32 <Sgeo> Well, that crashed Factor
01:05:58 <Sgeo> Because the string was too long, I think
01:06:02 <Sgeo> (The resulting string)
01:07:11 <olsner> that's a very good way of handling long strings
01:07:23 <Sgeo> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=2813
01:07:32 <Sgeo> I think it's the graphics drawing thing that crashe
01:08:31 <elliott> Sgeo: how does this do (foo)S
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01:19:51 <Sgeo> The same thing does not crash when using the console-based listener
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01:27:09 <Sgeo> That felt like it took way more intellectual resources than it should have
01:27:33 <Bike> now write something that takes an integer and returns the underload church numeral.
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01:28:09 <Sgeo> And the debugger isn't as great as I was imagining
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01:39:01 <Sgeo> I have not the faintest idea how to write idiomatic Factor
01:39:18 <Sgeo> Or is all Factor code supposed to be this ugly
01:42:14 <elliott> why are you asking us and not the factor channel
01:42:50 <Bike> "yes sgeo, it is supposed to be ugly"
01:42:53 <Sgeo> Because the Factor channel is practically dead and you've done Factor before
01:43:04 <monqy> I hear nobody uses factor
01:43:15 <kmc> monqy: "interesting theory"
01:43:23 <shachaf> I heard Factor was basically dead.
01:43:31 <kmc> is factor the new clojure?
01:43:48 <monqy> but clojure was the new factor
01:43:56 <Bike> I heard if you look in a mirror and chant the contents of A Programming Language backwards, Factor appears and kills you.
01:44:04 <shachaf> kmc: How's the new laptop?
01:44:53 <kmc> it's really nice
01:45:10 <kmc> i mean the laptop ;P
01:45:28 <kmc> it suspends to RAM in under 2 seconds and comes back all the way in 1 second flat
01:45:53 <kmc> battery charges from 40% to 80% in 20 minutes
01:45:58 <c00kiemon5ter> which one did you buy ? is it that new dell (the link posted yesterday) ?
01:46:13 <ion> I’m not sure any of my laptops have had perfectly working suspend-to-RAM ever.
01:46:18 <shachaf> How long does it take to go from 80 to 40?
01:46:24 <kmc> no it's the thinkpad x1 carbon
01:47:04 <kmc> shachaf: about 2 hours
01:47:53 <shachaf> Is this the i5 8GB version?
01:48:47 <kmc> so yeah it seems to get about 5 hours battery life at my usage, though i haven't tested running it down all the way
01:49:14 <kmc> better than the 3 that nelhage reported
01:49:18 <kmc> i wonder what the key difference is
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02:51:19 <kmc> ion: what kinds of problems did you have?
02:52:19 <kmc> it's been a long time since i had major suspend-to-RAM problems with the thinkpads i've owned
02:53:33 <kmc> shachaf: should i get the fingerprint reader working?
02:56:58 <kmc> probably not: http://www.ccc.de/updates/2007/umsonst-im-supermarkt?language=en
02:58:29 <olsner> the software I found for my fingerprint reader is probably the least secure part of my system, not that it has any real security in the first place
02:58:36 <kmc> it was kinda useful with the convertible tablet thinkpad because you could log in without the keyboard available
03:12:38 <kmc> mmmm new computer smell
03:14:39 <olsner> ah, among the bestest of smells
03:14:57 <olsner> do you sleep with your thinkpad now?
03:17:33 <kmc> not any more than before
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03:38:49 <elliott> Deewiant: You wanted bifunctors to use ~(a,b) patterns for tuples, right?
03:42:04 <Lumpio-> I wonder if the fact that Haskell is discussed here very often could be taken as an indication of the nature of the language
03:43:29 <kmc> that has more than once been suggested in the past
03:43:45 <kmc> i really should start more conversations about C++?
03:44:05 <kmc> so, what do you think about the fact that in C++, both class A and class B can define what happens in the implicit conversion from A to B?
03:44:07 <Bike> implement haskell in c++ templates
03:44:13 <Bike> How does that work?
03:44:18 <kmc> i forget who wins if there's a conflict
03:44:40 <kmc> well B can implement a constructor B::B(const A&)
03:44:54 <Lumpio-> Probably A, except on Wednesdays
03:44:56 <kmc> and A can implement a method B A::operator B()
03:45:25 <Fiora> can you define implicit conversions in Java? I know there's like, toString and stuff but is there general things?
03:45:29 <Fiora> I was wondering if this could occur there too
03:45:41 <kmc> i don't think you can
03:45:46 <Lumpio-> I don't think Java allows even operator overloading
03:46:07 <kmc> Java is designed for verbosity and extreme lack of cleverness
03:46:18 <Bike> point for c++. suck it steele
03:46:43 <Bike> (implicit conversions give me hives, though)
03:46:57 <kmc> i like that Haskell has none
03:47:09 <Fiora> that got me a lot of times at first
03:47:10 <shachaf> kmc: Until edwardk gets his hands on it, anyway.
03:47:11 <Lumpio-> I think you might be able to define a both ways implicit conversation in C# though
03:47:14 <Fiora> especially the Integer <-> Int distinction
03:47:23 <kmc> imo Int should not be in Prelude
03:47:35 <kmc> Prelude should have the conceptually simple things, not the optimized machine-dependent things
03:47:38 <Bike> is it like java where Integers are boxed or
03:47:44 <kmc> they're both boxed
03:47:59 <kmc> Int is a box on an integer of implementation defined size
03:48:07 <kmc> but at least [-2^29 .. 2^29-1]
03:48:13 <Bike> and an Integer is a bignum?
03:48:18 <kmc> and there's no implicit conversion
03:48:28 <kmc> but you can make functions that are polymorphic over both, naturally
03:48:38 <kmc> in fact even the numerical literal 17 is polymorphic
03:48:49 <Bike> yeah i went through learning that the other day
03:49:02 <kmc> GHC also has unboxed integers but they're not part of the language spec
03:49:10 <kmc> and they are subject to various limitations
03:49:11 <shachaf> um, just don't use more than 30 bits and then Int isnt implementation defined?? it's pretty trivial
03:49:28 <kmc> for example (as in Java) you can't store an unboxed int in a generic data structure
03:49:34 <kmc> shachaf: that's like programming for MIX
03:49:40 <kmc> where a byte might be 8 bits or 2 decimal digits
03:49:48 <Bike> haha that shit sucks
03:50:08 <Lumpio-> Java generics are glued on afterwards
03:50:19 <Lumpio-> No wonder they can't handle stuff like value types
03:50:32 <kmc> well there is an actual reason
03:51:35 <kmc> they aren't glued on afterwards in ML or Haskell and they have the same limitation
03:51:46 <kmc> well wait what do you mean by "value types"
03:51:56 <kmc> you mean these primitive ints we are discussing?
03:52:09 <kmc> so the reason is, you compile the code for a polymorphic function only once
03:52:22 <kmc> and that code needs to be correct no matter what the type variable is
03:52:51 <kmc> so it basically has to treat things of that variable type as opaque pointers
03:52:59 <Lumpio-> That's one way of doing it.
03:53:04 <kmc> but int and bool and float might not even be the same size as a pointer
03:53:18 <kmc> and in Haskell not only do you care about size, but you care about being able to force evaluation
03:53:24 <kmc> and follow GC indirections and stuff
03:53:35 <kmc> which means they need to be pointers to objects in the managed heap, with a certain layout
03:53:52 <kmc> Lumpio-: the other way (that I'm aware of) is that you compile a different version of the function for each type with which it's used
03:53:55 <kmc> as in C++ templates
03:54:00 <kmc> this has some advantages and many disadvantages
03:54:17 <Lumpio-> It takes some extra memory and time
03:54:22 <Lumpio-> Are there other disadvantages?
03:54:28 <Bike> what are the disadvantages, besides uh... multiple compilations, name mangling insanity...
03:54:34 <Lumpio-> (Assuming we don't allow all the craziness C++ templates do, but just what Java generics allow for instance)
03:54:43 <kmc> taking extra memory can also slow down the program
03:54:47 <kmc> because your code doesn't fit in cache anymore
03:55:11 <kmc> and you need the source of the template visible anywhere that it might be instantiated
03:55:16 <kmc> it pretty much wrecks separate compilation
03:55:44 <kmc> i can't dynamically load two libraries and then instantiate a template from one with a type from the other
03:55:52 <kmc> that shit works fine in Java or Haskell
03:56:02 <Lumpio-> I thought we were talking generics, not templates
03:56:24 <Lumpio-> C++ templates allow for much more than Java/.NET generics
03:56:32 <kmc> i can't dynamically load two libraries and then use a polymorphic function from one with a type from the other
03:56:44 <Lumpio-> Yes you can because it's all JIT compiled.
03:57:11 <kmc> are you talking about a real or hypothetical system?
03:57:23 <Lumpio-> Once it figures you need a new concrete version of a generic thing, it just compiles it on the fly (or in advance as things are loaded at runtime)
03:57:32 <kmc> which one?
03:57:48 <kmc> but then <kmc> and you need the source of the template visible anywhere that it might be instantiated
03:58:00 <kmc> where by "source" we might mean some intermediate form
03:58:21 <Lumpio-> Just like you need the bytecode for a Java generic class
03:59:07 <Lumpio-> It doesn't introduce any additional requirements or dependencies, it only wastes some time and memory
03:59:41 <Lumpio-> But it has the advantage of making List<int> actually use a tight array of integers inside, not an array of pointers to boxed integers
04:00:31 <kmc> it's advantagous though if the semantics of your language don't *require* a clever JIT
04:00:35 <Lumpio-> Oh, and if the compiler is smart, it can coalesce many instantiations into one
04:00:39 <elliott> kmc: I just said "trivial".
04:00:48 <kmc> so the Java route is that, semantically, List<int> is auto-boxed to List<Integer> or whatever
04:00:50 <Lumpio-> Like, say, all lists of objects
04:00:56 <kmc> and then if the JIT happens to optimize that to something clever, great
04:01:01 <Lumpio-> Since in that case they're all just opaque pointers.
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04:01:20 <kmc> but at the bytecode level you don't assume it will be able to
04:01:24 <kmc> at least that's my understanding
04:01:34 <shachaf> 20:00 <elliott> this would actually be fairly trivial
04:02:28 <kmc> elliott: thanks for the update
04:03:46 <kmc> it's the same way with GHC even though it's an ahead of time compiler
04:04:00 <kmc> a good JIT for Haskell would kick ass though
04:06:31 <shachaf> kmc: Did you know GHC doesn't do vectored returns anymore?
04:06:35 <shachaf> Everything is pointer tagged.
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04:06:43 <shachaf> The "spineless tagless g-machine" thing is a total scam.
04:08:56 <shachaf> 20:08 <edwardk> instance (Indexable Int k, Applicative f, a ~ a2, a ~ a3, a ~ a4, a ~ a5, a ~ a6, a ~ a7, a ~ a8, a ~ a9, b ~ b2, b ~ b3, b ~ b4, b ~ b5, b ~ b6, b ~ b7, b ~ b8, b ~ b9) => Each Int (a,a2,a3,a4,a5,a6,a7,a8,a9) (b,b2,b3,b4,b5,b6,b7,b8,b9) a b where
04:09:00 <shachaf> 20:08 <edwardk> each = Lens.indexed $ \ f ~(a,b,c,d,e,g,h,i,j) -> (,,,,,,,,) <$> f (0 :: Int) a <*> f 1 b <*> f 2 c <*> f 3 d <*> f 4 e <*> f 5 g <*> f 6 h <*> f 7 i <*> f 8 j
04:11:36 <kmc> shachaf: yeah
04:11:43 <kmc> though pointer tagging is just an optimization
04:12:07 <shachaf> kmc: Well, not really at this point.
04:12:09 <kmc> you could AND every pointer with ~7 and it would still produce correct results
04:12:11 <shachaf> I mean, you have to use the tags.
04:12:39 <shachaf> When the tag is unset, you jump to the code the pointer points to and then you get a new pointer with a new tag.
04:13:14 <shachaf> It's possible that I misunderstood.
04:13:17 <kmc> i guess that makes sense, instead of returning just the constructor index and making the caller OR it in
04:13:27 <kmc> though for data types with more than 7 constructors you must still do something like that
04:13:41 <shachaf> Well, with more than 7 constructors you look at the pointer.
04:13:48 <shachaf> I think at the part before the code.
04:13:53 <kmc> anyway the tags referred to in the original STG machine would be things like tagging primitive ints vs boxes
04:14:06 <kmc> ah the info table has the constructor index? makes sense
04:16:50 <shachaf> It would be nice if GHC supported unboxed sums.
04:16:59 <shachaf> Apparently that's a lot of trouble though.
04:17:10 <shachaf> So it doesn't w/w functions that return Either/Maybe/etc.
04:17:54 <kmc> worker/wrapper?
04:18:05 <kmc> how would unboxed sums work exactly?
04:18:24 <shachaf> (# tag, value #) or something.
04:18:40 <shachaf> If you return Maybe you can either return (# 0, a #) or (# 1, b #)
04:19:20 <shachaf> As opposed to allocating an Either which gets consumed immediately.
04:19:26 <kmc> which means those go in two STG-machine registers right?
04:19:51 <kmc> so why in particular is this a lot of trouble for the compiler
04:20:08 <shachaf> SPJ said "don't hold your breath"
04:21:39 <shachaf> It could help a lot for list processing functions and what not, I think.
04:27:23 <shachaf> Did you read the CPR paper?
04:27:28 <kmc> don't think so
04:27:49 <shachaf> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/Papers/cpr/index.htm
04:28:02 <shachaf> These things are always more involved than they sound.
04:28:51 <shachaf> elliott: are you generating documentation with cpp.................
04:42:22 <kmc> shachaf: I saw some juvenile cuttlefish today!
04:42:24 <kmc> at the aquarium
04:45:43 <kmc> they also had comb jellies
04:45:53 <kmc> and an electric eel in a tank with electrodes such that you could hear its zapping over a loudspeaker
04:46:49 <kmc> yes, this one: neaq.org
04:46:54 <shachaf> Have you been to the Monterey Bay Aquarium?
04:46:59 <kmc> no, i want to go though!
04:47:02 <kmc> i will go some day
04:47:11 <shachaf> I was in Monterey and ended up not going.
04:47:21 <shachaf> Perhaps I'll be there again.
04:47:31 <shachaf> Did you know Oleg is in Monterey?
04:47:36 <kmc> doing some navy thing?
04:47:38 <kmc> or is that over
04:47:48 <kmc> is he looking for the nuclear wessels?
04:48:00 <shachaf> Isn't he predicting the weather or something?
04:48:07 <kmc> makes sense
04:48:09 <kmc> he *is* a wizard
04:48:24 <kmc> perhaps delimited continuations are the secret to predicting the weather
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05:11:14 <elliott> @tell Deewiant https://github.com/ekmett/bifunctors/issues/1 (and lens behaves this way too)
05:22:36 <kmc> shachaf: do you know how Chromium's Ctrl-F manages to e.g. find 'ß' if you search for 'ss'?
05:22:39 <kmc> is it based on http://unicode.org/cldr/charts/supplemental/character_fallback_substitutions.html
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05:27:26 <kmc> there are combining characters for musical note heads, stems, and flags??
05:27:51 <Bike> haha why would you ever want that
05:30:30 <kmc> it is kind of questionable to include "characters" for things with highly specific unusual forms of typesetting
05:30:34 <kmc> like musical notes and mathematics
05:30:36 <Bike> also does this mean there's COMBINING HEAD ABOVE? one step closer to COMBINING PENIS ABOVE
05:30:43 <kmc> in theory music / math typesetting tools could use these characters
05:30:49 <Bike> what theory is that
05:30:51 <kmc> but i think they basically never will
05:30:57 <Bike> someone who's never tried to typeset music?
05:31:28 <Bike> at least with the math characters you can do some basic shit like sum notation. without a staff how are you supposed to do music?
05:31:36 <Bike> I guess you could indicate rhythm... and... that's about it.
05:32:30 <kmc> well a music typesetting tool could store things as "♪ at position y"
05:32:43 <kmc> representing some of the information using unicode
05:32:48 <kmc> but it's highly doubtful anyone will want to do this
05:33:20 <kmc> anyway ♫ is also used to represent the concept of music without specifying particular music
05:33:24 <kmc> e.g. in closed captions
05:33:48 <Bike> hm... actually, what's the intended scope of unicode? not "all human communication" of course, but where's the line?
05:34:41 <elliott> all human communication except klingon
05:34:48 <kmc> there are some amusing decompositions in the list... like ₪ can decompose to שח or ILS
05:36:07 <kmc> Bike: i'll let you know if i come across a precise mission statement
05:36:24 <kmc> i think it's basically "all text" but the definition of text is slippery
05:36:43 <kmc> in part it's a descriptive standard that tries to unify existing codes
05:36:57 <kmc> a lot of things are in there so that you can round trip with existing legacy codes losslessly
05:36:59 <Bike> are you on some kind of unicode binge?
05:37:08 <kmc> even ASCII's beloved hyphen-minus is an example of this!
05:37:12 <kmc> typographically it is a shit character
05:37:26 <Bike> oh is that why wikipedia uses em dashes instead
05:37:34 <kmc> but there it is, in the first 128 codepoints!
05:38:04 <Bike> i guess i'd never thought of that as being silly. monoglot bias i suppose.
05:38:39 <Bike> (now put me in charge of a character set. you get ascii)
05:38:58 <kmc> unicode binge... we were just outside barstow when the grass radicals began to take hold
05:38:58 <Bike> actually huh, what does unicode do about all the control characters?
05:39:05 <kmc> they're in there
05:39:14 <Bike> since they're kind of... not... charactery
05:39:29 <kmc> the first 256 codepoints of Unicode are the same as the 256 codepoints of ISO-8859-1
05:39:30 <Bike> of course it has its own like the text direction stuff, but that's not quite as abstract as bell
05:39:42 <kmc> (more eurocentrism for you!)
05:39:46 <kmc> including the C0 and C1 control codes
05:41:06 <kmc> and yeah it has all kinds of new control characters like text direction stuff, language indication (officially deprecated), byte-order mark, etc
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05:42:15 <kmc> oh they *also* have the control characters encoded again at e.g. http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2400/index.htm
05:42:33 <Bike> the hell is that
05:42:38 <kmc> these are visible characters for when you want to talk *about* NUL or STX or whatever
05:42:55 <Bike> "SYMBOL FOR START OF HEADING"
05:43:12 <kmc> yeah it's a symbol representing the ASCII character 1
05:43:45 <kmc> defining "character" gets pretty tricky... for example, A vs. bold A is just a font distinction, except that mathematicians treat them as semantically distinct characters
05:43:52 <elliott> ␀ is my favourite codepoint.
05:44:08 <Bike> 2400, because i have the wrong fonts installed. take that unicode
05:44:26 <kmc> so Unicode has a bunch of copies of the latin alphabet for MATHEMATICAL SANS SERIF BOLD LATIN A and whatever
05:44:26 <Bike> kmc: does unicode have blackboard bold?
05:44:34 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Alphanumeric_Symbols
05:44:49 <Bike> unicode meetings must be exciting.
05:44:49 <kmc> scumbag mathematicians
05:45:05 <kmc> invented a way to draw an equivalent of bold on blackboards
05:45:07 <Bike> i should figure out what the deal with han unification was sometime
05:45:09 <kmc> then decided it means something else
05:45:13 <kmc> then decided to write them in print too
05:45:23 <Bike> mathematicians are the worst at syntax
05:45:37 <kmc> multi-character identifier names??? pfffffffffft fuck that
05:45:58 <Bike> it was a good day when I realized mathematicians were basically doing for(i ...) all day erryday
05:46:01 <kmc> han unification was an argument over to what degree similar Han characters from Chinese and Japanese and (old) Korean are "the same character"
05:46:14 <Bike> yeah, i got that much
05:46:16 <kmc> they might look a bit different but that can be a font thing as well
05:46:20 <Bike> just, the arguments either way and such
05:46:33 <kmc> i think it came up at a time when people still wanted Unicode to be a 16-bit code only
05:46:36 <Bike> old vietnamese uses them too, doesn't it?
05:46:37 <kmc> so there was kind of a space crunch
05:46:47 <elliott> han unification seems like a completely terrible idea to me
05:46:53 <elliott> especially since unicode has no qualm with duplicates normally
05:47:02 <Bike> now i'm wondering if they unified all the various mongolian alphabets
05:47:04 <kmc> well yeah they've come around to that position
05:47:12 <elliott> right but have they fixed it yet :P
05:47:22 <kmc> one reason for duplicates is lossless round-trip with legacy encodings
05:48:09 <kmc> <Bike> unicode meetings must be exciting. ← i want to know what the meeting about Multiocular O was like
05:48:56 <kmc> maybe i should get a tattoo of multiocular o
05:49:17 <Bike> ok, ok wait, back on the math thing. why does it have MATHEMATICAL SCRIPT CAPITAL D, then two undefined codepoints, then MATHEMATICAL SCRIPT CAPITAL G
05:49:28 <Bike> what else is going to go in those codepoints
05:49:32 <kmc> oh cause E and F are already in the Basic Multilingual Plane
05:49:58 <kmc> they put the more common script letters in first
05:50:03 <kmc> and then they were like "fuck it"
05:50:41 <kmc> "The letters in various fonts often have specific, fixed meanings in particular areas of mathematics. By providing uniformity over numerous mathematical articles and books, these conventions help to read mathematical formulae." it's cute how they think mathematicians will ever use anything but LaTeX
05:50:51 <kmc> also lol MathML
05:51:09 <Bike> oh, i see. you have MATHEMATICAL DOUBLE STRUCK CAPITAL X, then Y, at 1d54f and on, but then DOUBLE STRUCK CAPITAL Z is hanging out back in 2124
05:51:20 <Bike> because it's integers. wow.
05:51:37 <Bike> unicode has got to be fucking full of these warts
05:52:07 <kmc> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/cjb/codepoints.html
05:52:11 <kmc> this list is pre-emoji too
05:52:15 <kmc> so there's no PILE OF POO
05:52:42 <Bike> "GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA" so i suppose this is in the same area has multiocular o
05:53:00 <kmc> U+FDFA is the Arabic phrase "May Allah pray on him and grant him peace" as a single character
05:53:17 <Bike> http://decodeunicode.org/data/glyph/196x196/2368.gif i love you, apl
05:53:45 <Bike> it's a tilde with diaresis, how do you even come up with that?
05:53:49 <kmc> KANGXI RADICAL FIGHT would be a good name for a band
05:54:04 <shachaf> Did I miss a good Unicode discussion?
05:54:05 <Bike> ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
05:54:16 <Bike> oh, uighur, hm
05:54:26 <kmc> uighur please
05:54:39 <Bike> i wonder if those people who write arabic-infused mandarin in cyrillic have opinions on unicode
05:55:09 <elliott> kmc: well there is a popular latex derivative that uses unicode
05:55:18 <kmc> it's a face
05:55:40 <Bike> it was a serious question, they must have some pretty unique opinions on scripts
05:55:54 <kmc> though cyrillic is a pretty well behaeved script
05:55:58 <kmc> if they don't have weird customizations
05:56:00 <kmc> which they probably do
05:57:12 <Bike> "It is a Russian based alphabet plus four special letters: Җ, Ң, Ә, and Ў." well there we go then
05:57:33 <kmc> "Zhe with extra crap hanging off the side"
05:57:44 <Bike> Cyrillic_Capital_Letter_Zhe_With_Descender apparently, so... yes
05:57:58 <Bike> Cyrillic Capital Letter Schwa. Lovely.
05:58:31 <kmc> Chuvash language has CYRILLIC LETTER U WITH DOUBLE ACUTE
05:59:11 <Bike> erdős, plural: erdӳ
06:00:09 <Bike> hm, apparently the dungan used to have their own script, which was basically chinese in arabic
06:01:17 <Bike> and it has four unique letters! yay
06:01:41 <kmc> are they in unicode
06:02:11 <kmc> google detects dungan as bulgarian, utterly fails to translate it
06:02:26 <Bike> hm, wikipedia doesn't say which are unique
06:02:37 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know what the cheese which is called "bulgarian cheese" in Hebrew is?
06:02:42 <Bike> is ARABIC_LETTER_KEHEH_WITH_THREE_DOTS_ABOVE used in usual arabic
06:03:13 <kmc> shachaf: what is it?
06:03:27 <shachaf> It's sort of similar to feta.
06:03:34 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Xiaoerjing-Ekzemplafrazo.svg is that a quotation mark? if so it's pretty awesome.
06:03:38 <shachaf> It's made with sheep's milk, I think?
06:03:51 <shachaf> It's popularly eaten with watermelon (as well as many other things).
06:04:14 <kmc> Bike: nice
06:04:43 <Bike> "manuscripts which use the Arabic script for transcribing Romance languages such as Mozarabic, Portuguese, Spanish or Ladino" this must be exciting
06:04:45 <kmc> is it this shachaf? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirene
06:05:41 <kmc> using Arabic script to write a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew o_O
06:05:42 <shachaf> kmc: Hmm, it says it's "similar".
06:06:13 <Bike> kmc: you're aware of basque-icelandic pidgin right
06:06:18 <kmc> Bike: what no
06:06:20 <shachaf> The Hebrew link on that page links to the Hebrew page.
06:06:28 <Bike> kmc: swear to god it's real
06:06:31 <shachaf> I don't think I've come across that name before.
06:06:49 <Bike> i think there was also a polish-mongolian pidgin
06:07:02 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Mongolian_literary_relations
06:07:03 <kmc> i like that one of the example phrases on wikipedia is "Fuck you!"
06:07:15 <Bike> life is beautiful, elliott
06:07:36 <elliott> Bike: why is ther e basque-icelandic pidgin
06:07:45 <Bike> kmc: i imagine it comes up a lot when you're an icelandic sailor trying to talk to this weird mountainous french guy???
06:07:57 <Bike> elliott: so that icelanders and basques could talk, duh
06:08:19 <kmc> how did french people end up at the far side of iceland anyway
06:08:53 <Bike> how did norse people end up on the far side of greenland
06:09:11 <kmc> Wash a shirt for me. Fuck you! Give me garters. I will give you a biscuit and a sour drink. If Christ and Maria give me a whale, I will give you the tail. You are an evil man. Give me hot milk and new butter.
06:09:14 <shachaf> Ha, Bike still believes in Greenland.
06:09:32 <Bike> give you the... is that some kind of rhyming insult
06:09:57 <Bike> speaking of which, as long as i'm talking about language trivia i don't really know, are you all aware that rap battles have been invented independently all over the world centuries ago
06:09:57 <kmc> i don't know
06:10:05 <kmc> no but that's great
06:12:17 <Bike> there are entirely different traditions in, say, norse (flyting) and... i forget the turkmen one
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06:13:53 <kmc> as long as i'm talking about whales did you know that all whales found beached on the shores of Britain are considered property of the Queen?
06:13:56 <kmc> sturgeons too
06:14:06 <kmc> well in Scotland it's only those whales too large to be pulled to land by a "wain pulled by six oxen"
06:17:51 <shachaf> אנשים נוטים לבלבל בין גבינת הפטה לגבינה הבולגרית, אך תהליך הייצור שלהם וטעמן שונה. הבולגרית עוברת כבישה והיא יותר קשיחה, לעומת הפטה שנוטה להתפורר.
06:25:59 <kmc> whales in wales?!?!?
06:26:32 <shachaf> :: forall s t a b (f :: * -> *) (k :: * -> * -> *).
06:26:32 <shachaf> (Functor f, Indexable Int k, Field1 s t a b) =>
06:26:37 <shachaf> Guess who's to blame for that type?
06:27:14 <Bike> is that a type with type annotations in it?
06:27:35 <shachaf> A kind is a type of a type.
06:28:37 <kmc> those kinds could be inferred anyway
06:28:46 <kmc> but ghci helpfully prints the ones which are not *
06:29:16 <Bike> does ghc possibly with whatever crazed extensions you're using have kinds other than -> ones?
06:29:19 <elliott> shachaf just turned it on.
06:29:42 <shachaf> There are no datakinds there.
06:30:03 <kmc> even without turning on any extensions, ghc has a few extra kinds
06:30:19 <kmc> #, the kind of unboxed types
06:30:33 <shachaf> Can you get access to them these days, without extensions?
06:30:35 <kmc> (#), the kind of unboxed tuple typess (which are not unboxed types for this purpose)
06:30:47 <kmc> and ? and ?? which are unions of those
06:30:53 <elliott> those don't exist any more kmc
06:30:56 <elliott> they have more reasonable names now
06:30:59 <kmc> it's all different now
06:31:04 <elliott> also now you have datakinds
06:31:17 <elliott> so for instance Foo :: [Int] -> Constraint!
06:31:37 <shachaf> If it's unsatisfiable we call it a Constrain't.
06:32:37 <kmc> elliott: huh what does "Constraint" mean as a type?
06:33:06 <kmc> i understand it as a kind, e.g. forall (c :: Constraint). c => t
06:33:14 <elliott> that was a kind signature for Foo
06:33:21 <elliott> type family Foo :: [Int] -> Constraint
06:33:21 <kmc> because [Int] is a datakind
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06:33:26 <elliott> type instance Foo '[] = ()
06:33:32 <kmc> this is some crazy shit
06:33:35 <Bike> [Int] isn't a type in this context?
06:33:35 <elliott> type instance Foo (x ': xs) = (MyTypeClassTakingAnInt x, Foo xs)
06:33:46 <kmc> it makes sense now
06:33:47 <Bike> uh. so ... what is it
06:34:00 <kmc> GHC lifts data types to the kind level, and data constructors to the type level
06:34:15 <kmc> when you enable appropriate crazy extensions
06:34:21 <popl> Haskell is esoteric?
06:34:36 <kmc> #esoteric is on topic?
06:34:47 <Bike> right i'm going to file this away as something i shouldn't try to understand right this second because i'll just fuck it up
06:35:46 <popl> I just found http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html
06:35:50 <popl> I think it's really cool.
06:36:08 <Bike> i think the wiki has several examples of image languages
06:36:16 <Fiora> you're being like you and self-deprecating and depressive and stuff
06:36:43 <Bike> geez, i'm just trying to be realistic. i barely know type theory, taking it to The Next Level too fast is just a dumb way to learn.
06:36:58 <kmc> yeah a lot of people make this mistake learning haskell
06:37:09 <Bike> Haha, Piet is in Category:Low-level
06:37:22 <Bike> popl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Two-dimensional_languages i think most of these are actually fungoids but
06:37:26 <popl> I was thinking how this channel allowed escape codes and thought about writing a language that made use of them. Then I thought somebody else might have already done, and I found Piet.
06:38:02 <Bike> kmc: what mistake?
06:38:04 <popl> Bike: The operations are all low-level. I think it's neat.
06:38:23 <Bike> it is neat, i just don't normally associate "low-level" and "you distribute it as a png"
06:38:41 <Fiora> hey, that means the executables come pre-compressed right?
06:38:48 <kmc> Bike: trying to understand the coolest sounding advanced ideas without understanding the fundamentals
06:38:52 <Fiora> and instead of an executable packer, you have pngout
06:38:53 <kmc> so i think your attitude is reasonable
06:39:40 <Bike> if i actually wanted to learn haskell i'd just write a regex matcher in it or something, it's more fun to sit around pretending to learn math
06:40:03 <kmc> the archetypal example are people who are obsessed with "learning monads" but don't understand type classes and higher order functions
06:40:31 <Bike> monads without understanding higher order functions sounds... depressing, really
06:40:39 <shachaf> "low-level" and "high-level" have two different meanings.
06:40:45 <shachaf> One is close or far to what the machine does.
06:40:50 <shachaf> The other is close or far to what you want to say.
06:41:00 <shachaf> We need two different sets of words for this. :-(
06:41:02 <kmc> it's depressing that any programmers do not understand higher order functions, but there we are
06:41:23 <Bike> did you know that Higher-Order Perl is a book that exists?
06:42:01 <Bike> nothing, really
06:49:45 <popl> kmc: Did you mean it's depressing that all programmers do not ... ?
06:50:19 <Bike> his sentence seems fine as it is.
06:50:31 <Bike> "it's depressing that programmers that do not understand higher order functions exist"
06:51:03 <shachaf> popl: what are you even doing here popl
06:51:18 <popl> shachaf: slumming
06:52:00 <popl> shachaf: It was easier to type /j #esoteric then /topic #esoteric
06:52:45 <popl> shachaf: And Bike ended up giving me the URI for the wiki anyways (it is not in the topic).
06:52:57 <popl> shachaf: I will leave if you ask.
06:53:26 <HackEgo> popl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:53:29 <HackEgo> POPL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
06:53:36 <elliott> ok the latter might not actually be a URI
06:53:44 <popl> 22:37 < Bike> popl: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Two-dimensional_languages i think most of these are actually fungoids but
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06:55:10 <popl> I was joking when I said I was slumming.
06:55:20 <popl> elliott: I'm sorry I said your favoritest language was COBOL.
06:55:36 <Bike> cobol's pretty cool
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08:53:53 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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08:54:17 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:54:34 <HackEgo> `welcome: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:55:02 <HackEgo> .ACTION: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:55:09 <shachaf> monqy: what's the pacific ocean like
08:56:56 <shachaf> monqy: what about the indian ocean
08:58:45 <shachaf> monqy: what about the red sea
09:01:23 <monqy> shachaf you should be able to figure this out yourself
09:01:58 <shachaf> monqy: It's kind of tricky.
09:02:05 <shachaf> You have a natural talent at this.
09:03:49 <shachaf> FreeFull: The Sun is dead.
09:08:07 <hagb4rd> "when the doors of perception are cleansed man will see things as they truly are..infinite"
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09:47:07 <shachaf> elliott: Bet me the year of my birth doubled is an odd number.
09:47:44 <FreeFull> shachaf: You were born in a halfyeaer?
10:04:05 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
10:04:05 <HackEgo> 233) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
10:04:06 <HackEgo> 216) <fizzie> Deewiant: Did you take the course at some point and/or were you taking it now and/or did you actually already graduate and/or are you still in Otaniemi anyway?
10:04:06 <HackEgo> 618) <shachaf> VMS Mosaic? <shachaf> I hope that's not Mosaic ported to VMS. <shachaf> Hmm. It's Mosaic ported to VMS.
10:04:07 <HackEgo> 14) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
10:06:57 <oerjan> `pastelogs Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
10:07:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3026
10:08:08 <oerjan> oh it was only no. 23 when it was added.
10:08:21 <oerjan> deletions aren't _quite_ as harsh as i feared :P
10:08:43 <HackEgo> 470) <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
10:08:44 <HackEgo> 164) <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS
10:08:44 <HackEgo> 299) <crystal-cola> I just thought you might have meant the Ramanujan tau and I was WOAH he weilds heavy weapons
10:08:46 <HackEgo> 212) <Vorpal> ooh I want to see ehird pole dancing <ehird> I think that would be illegal. <Vorpal> oh you are right <Vorpal> damn :/
10:08:46 <HackEgo> 717) <elliott> aaaaah my scherzo is unmeasurable
10:09:06 <oerjan> i think 470 may have a death wish
10:09:13 <shachaf> Didn't someone delete 164 once?
10:09:40 <monqy> what's with 212.........
10:09:48 <monqy> also what's with 717, but in a different way
10:10:07 <shachaf> wha'ts with the pacific ocean monqy!
10:10:13 <elliott> monqy: 212 explanation: vorpal.
10:10:14 <oerjan> monqy: i don't think it's illegal any longer. maybe Vorpal should try again.
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10:10:19 <elliott> 717 explanation: my scherzo is unmeasurable
10:10:33 <shachaf> kmc: What do *you* think about The Hashable Controversy?
10:10:39 <shachaf> elliott is getting quite worked up about it.
10:10:47 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a controversy now?
10:11:15 <oerjan> i saw a reddit post but i didn't notice any controversy
10:11:18 <elliott> shachaf: don't worry, I know you like to get shit done
10:11:26 <elliott> shachaf: and that's why you use classy-prelude and new hashable
10:11:53 <shachaf> elliott: Don't make me get my CanMapM_Func!
10:13:42 <Deewiant> elliott: Did edward say /why/ he repented anywhere?
10:14:21 <elliott> Deewiant: Apparently dolio convinced him.
10:16:14 <elliott> Deewiant: Quoth: "`nand` made a solid case in some code here, and dolio worked me over about the lack of true products in haskell for months before i broke.."
10:16:15 <Deewiant> 16.07:11:14* elliott | @tell Deewiant https://github.com/ekmett/bifunctors/issues/1 (and lens behaves this way too)
10:17:38 <Deewiant> elliott: Where's that quote from?
10:17:52 <elliott> Deewiant: I told edwardk you wanted to know and that's what he said.
10:17:57 <elliott> I am basically Deewiant'sIRC client.
10:18:02 <elliott> Also Deewiant's IRC client.
10:19:48 <oerjan> <elliott> Bike: why is ther e basque-icelandic pidgin <-- istr the basques were pretty great fishermen, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Basque_people#Basque_sailors
10:24:38 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora updat
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10:42:15 <oerjan> <popl> shachaf: I will leave if you ask. <-- NO DON'T GIVE SHACHAF POWER
10:42:25 <oerjan> IT'S TOO LATE HE ALREADY LEFT
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10:42:58 <Taneb> have to pretend to be a rabbi
10:43:48 <oerjan> <-- does it have to exist to be a URI?
10:43:51 <oerjan> <elliott> ok the latter might not actually be a URI <-- does it have to exist to be a URI?
10:44:02 <Taneb> School's Youth Theatre's performance of Fiddler on the Roof is over
10:44:07 <oerjan> pesky non-automatic pasting
10:44:51 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.
10:45:31 <oerjan> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past.
10:45:47 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Where did you learn to type?
10:45:53 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you on drugs?
10:46:01 <elliott> oerjan: double spaces after . s:(
10:46:20 <oerjan> elliott: um there is a double space
10:46:33 <shachaf> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask.He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past.
10:46:45 <shachaf> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past.
10:46:45 <elliott> that's how it's meant to be
10:46:58 <oerjan> elliott: i thought double space was the standard. is that only for quotes?
10:47:12 <shachaf> Double space isn't for separating sentences...
10:47:20 <monqy> the "elliott standard"
10:47:21 <shachaf> Only the scum of the earth separate sentences with double space.
10:47:40 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
10:47:41 <fizzie> For some reason I always doublespace between sentences in emails. I scum.
10:48:26 <shachaf> fizzie: The worst part is when you only do it on the first sentence.
10:48:30 <shachaf> That makes you a start-scummer.
10:48:31 <elliott> oerjan: can you figure out how to unify view and view'
10:48:54 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting a s t a b -> m a
10:48:56 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting a s s a a -> m a
10:49:14 <oerjan> ok what are those and what's the actual difference
10:49:30 <shachaf> unifiedview :: MonadReader s m => Getting a s t a b -> m a hth
10:49:34 <elliott> oerjan: Getting a s t a b -> s -> a
10:49:40 <elliott> you don't have to care about the monad part
10:49:49 <elliott> oerjan: the problem is that s,t,a,b aren't known to be related by the typesystem
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10:50:03 <elliott> oerjan: so if you have something which would be ambiguous if not for defaulting, then it still remains ambiguous
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10:50:07 <elliott> because it defaults s and a because you actually pass them
10:50:10 <elliott> but t and b are just floating there
10:50:17 <elliott> whereas with view' it's made unambiguous
10:50:31 <elliott> we'd ideally like some way to say "if this function is used ambiguously, try again assuming s ~ t, a ~ b"
10:51:29 <shachaf> did you try the constraint GHC.Exts.MaybeUnify
10:51:52 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, I called my typeclass attempting to hack it in MaybeUnify.
10:52:02 <shachaf> I named the one I invented after yours.
10:52:47 <elliott> I didn't even tell you about mine!
10:53:05 <shachaf> 02:34 <elliott> what we need is some kind of constraint (MaybeUnify a b)
10:54:17 <oerjan> you let the secret escape
10:54:48 <shachaf> elliott: I'm a real mind reader.
10:54:59 <shachaf> After that, you went to Oleg's website and looked for similar things.
10:55:14 <shachaf> You found one, btu it turned out to just be (~)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:37:53 <ion> kmc: Usually some piece of hardware not working after resume.
11:45:55 <fizzie> We have a Lenovo laptop here where the firmware fan controller makes it do this really horrible "cycle the fan on to ~full for two seconds every 15 seconds when the box is idle" loop. It does that in Linux and in a clean Win8 install, but not in the provided Win7 with Lenovo's "Power Manager" thing running; presumably that takes control from the EC and runs the fans by itself. It's really a wurst.
11:47:48 <fizzie> ibm_acpi has an experimental mode where it can do thermal monitoring an fan control (and people have written scripts to do that), but I don't even know if it would work in that thing, and anyway it sounds like a good way to melt a processor or something.
11:52:40 <olsner> have you tried upgrading the bios/
11:52:55 <fizzie> Sure, it's at the latest revision they've made for that model.
11:53:09 <fizzie> Googling suggests Lenovo has fixed a number of older ThinkPads with similar fan issues with firmware upgrades.
11:54:02 <fizzie> I should probably complain on their forums. Though there's a 35-page thread from owners of a not-the-same-but-reasonably-close-in-model-number-space complaining about a fan loop, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
11:54:20 <fizzie> (I have also tried turning it off and then on.)
11:56:08 <shachaf> yo elliott, i hird u like algebra, so i put sums and products in ur records
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12:49:02 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `min' (imported from Data.Ord)
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12:52:38 <FreeFull> GHC.Prim.State# exists but if I attempt to look at it, ghci parses the # as a separate symbol
12:53:07 <elliott> you don't want to look at that
12:53:32 <oerjan> FreeFull: {-# LANGUAGE MagicHash #-} or so
12:54:06 <elliott> I should adjust GHC's IO representation so there isn't a definition in a file ending .hs.
12:54:18 <oerjan> elliott, so frustrated
12:54:42 <oerjan> also yes, main can be IO a for any a
12:54:50 <elliott> yes but that's not what Deewiant said...
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13:26:04 <Deewiant> heh, guess I shouldn't try to write some quick Haskell on my phone without thinking when I haven't written Haskell in months
13:27:05 <elliott> writing Haskell on a phone sounds distinctly unpleasant
13:28:00 <fizzie> Writing a phone on Haskell, though...
13:31:31 <ion> main :: MonadIO a => a
13:31:39 <ion> main :: MonadIO m => m a
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14:05:44 <sgeo_> I'm graduating in a few days
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14:15:22 <Jafet> Ominously closer and closer to that dissertation
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16:59:52 <kmc> fizzie: oh yeah, my friend's thinkpad did the fan cycle thing
16:59:54 <kmc> then the fan died :(
17:00:25 <kmc> shachaf: what's the controversy
17:00:46 <kmc> <elliott> shachaf: and that's why you use classy-prelude and new hashable ← learning a lesson :(
17:02:15 <kmc> hagb4rd++ for william blake quote
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18:23:51 <Taneb> ais521, you're looking somewhat decremented
18:24:59 <ais521> Well, since ais523 asked me (AnotherTest) to stop my testing period, this is my new pseudonym
18:26:06 <ais521> Interesting to note: 521 and 523 form a prime twin
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18:35:32 <Taneb> This is going to be confusing, I can tell
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18:38:52 <ais521> My vimrc file disappeared? :(
18:39:14 <ais521> I can't exactly recall deliberately removing it
18:39:33 <FreeFull> You know, ghci is actually pretty neat for programming with SDL
18:39:46 <FreeFull> Because you can enter SDL commands and see what happens without having to recompile every time
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19:40:14 <oerjan> <Taneb> This is going to be confusing, I can tell <-- YOU DON'T SAY
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20:18:47 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/14tdab/a_major_new_release_of_the_hashable_library/
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20:35:28 <ion> Baby don’t hurt me
20:39:50 <HackEgo> 361) <elliott_> I'm not even going to try and understand what you're proposing. <oerjan> i understand it perfectly. it's completely nuts.
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20:43:43 <sgeo_> If a Brainfuck interpreter throws an error when it receives a comment, is it still considered a Brainfuck interpreter
20:44:39 <sgeo_> Guess what the Brainfuck implementation that comes with Factor does?
20:44:44 <ais523> no, it's an interpreter for a similar-to-BF language
20:44:57 <ais523> what if it terminates upon reading a NUL character?
20:45:21 <sgeo_> It would be a quick change to fix it though
20:46:19 <sgeo_> https://github.com/slavapestov/factor/blob/master/extra/brainfuck/brainfuck.factor
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21:08:23 <oerjan> you didn't even give dekas a `welcome, how will he now know where to go for esoteric love
21:09:52 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
21:09:52 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
21:09:52 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
21:09:52 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
21:09:52 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
21:09:54 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
21:09:56 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
21:10:21 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:10:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:10:34 <lambdabot> http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/HaskellUserLocations
21:11:17 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: do ft let show vote what yow
21:11:52 <lambdabot> ft <ident>. Generate theorems for free
21:12:01 <shachaf> i have no idea what just happened!!!
21:12:07 <oerjan> oh dear it generated shachaf. for free no less!
21:12:38 <shachaf> @ft bike :: oerjan -> Bike oerjan
21:12:49 <shachaf> @free bike :: oerjan -> Bike oerjan
21:13:00 <lambdabot> ft <ident>. Generate theorems for free
21:13:02 <lambdabot> free <ident>. Generate theorems for free
21:13:38 <lambdabot> I perform dictionary lookups via the following 13 commands:
21:13:38 <lambdabot> all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org
21:13:38 <lambdabot> devils ...... The Devil's Dictionary
21:13:38 <lambdabot> easton ...... Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
21:13:42 <lambdabot> foldoc ...... The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing
21:13:44 <lambdabot> gazetteer ... U.S. Gazetteer (1990)
21:13:46 <lambdabot> hitchcock ... Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's)
21:14:01 <shachaf> My name totally appears in the bible!
21:14:01 <oerjan> shachaf isn't a biblical name? shocking
21:14:12 <shachaf> Admittedly it's mostly listed as a bird you can't eat.
21:14:30 <lambdabot> *** "Nathan" hitchcock "Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's)"
21:14:53 <Bike> is that like the thing where locusts may or may not be kosher, or whatever
21:15:27 <shachaf> I guess that's not biblical either.
21:15:31 <oerjan> with the command name, i would rather have imagined an index of horror films
21:16:02 <lambdabot> *** "Jesus" hitchcock "Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's)"
21:16:24 <oerjan> would have been embarassing to leave that out
21:16:30 <lambdabot> *** "Adam" hitchcock "Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's)"
21:16:51 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
21:16:58 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
21:17:27 <Bike> hitchcock didn't cover cyrillic? terrible
21:19:13 <lambdabot> "\208\144\208\180\208\176\208\188"
21:20:14 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo \208\144\208\180\
21:20:14 <lambdabot> 208\176\208\188"]} rest:"\208\144\208\180\208\176\208\188"
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21:44:51 <fizzie> I've used that one thing in it.
21:45:15 <fizzie> Well, not in the 3DS, just on the DS.
21:45:35 <Taneb> Gregor-3DS, better or worse than Webchat on a Kindle?
21:45:59 <fizzie> DSOrganize! That thing.
21:46:06 <fizzie> It had a built-in IRC client, I think.
21:46:11 <fizzie> It was also the worst.
21:46:14 <fizzie> (There are many worst.)
21:46:38 <Gregor> That was, in fact, web chat on 3DS.
21:47:16 <fizzie> I can't find a sensible screenshot of the DSOrganize IRC. But it was worst.
21:48:00 <fizzie> Oh, there's a set of screenshots, but they're just about how to use DSOrganize IRC + bitlbee in order to MSN from the DS.
21:49:06 <fizzie> It also has the worst web browser.
21:49:16 <fizzie> Maybe webchat on it would be doubleworst.
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21:53:03 <Gregor> The browser on 3DS (built in, not a hack) isn't TERRIBLE, but I wouldn't want to use it too much.
21:59:30 <fizzie> The DSOrganize one is terrible.
22:00:04 <fizzie> http://nds.scenebeta.com/biblioarchivosdrupal/nds_pub/active/0/dso1.png that's it browsing bash.org.
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22:25:13 <Gregor> I'm considering buying a DS homebrew cart for my 3DS.
22:25:18 <Gregor> Is there any vaguely-worthwhile homebrew?
22:27:53 <zzo38> There might be some. There might also be some homebrew for other systems which can be emulated on DS
22:29:44 <Fiora> last I heard flash karts still don't work on the DSi or 3DS...
22:30:32 <Gregor> Fiora: The right ones do, the wrong ones never will.
22:30:48 <Gregor> Fiora: The ones for 3DS are just DS-mode though, there's no true 3DS homebrew yet.
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22:45:09 <FreeFull> Nintendo doesn't like homebrew much
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23:05:53 <sgeo_> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23:05:55 <sgeo_> http://scpclassic.wikidot.com/scp-031
23:06:02 <sgeo_> Thank you, scpclassic person
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00:20:47 <GreyKnight> @ask zzo38 Under "games" on zzo38computer.org, hangman has a weird line type. Can you explain? Also, I can't access the root menu by sending a blank selector, only "root".
00:26:41 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:28:21 <shachaf> It's just not the same when it's not from elliott.
00:29:56 -!- GreyKnight has set topic: The international hub for exothermic voodoo programming and astral software projection and deployment. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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00:38:03 <HackEgo> 117) <CakeProphet> how does a "DNA computer" work. <CakeProphet> von neumann machines? <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. <Phantom_Hoover> It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own.
00:38:36 <HackEgo> 635) <CakeProphet> but yeah the caliphates expanded their empire by conquering people and then forcing them to either convert to Islam or die. [...] <oerjan> i thought it was sort of, convert to islam or pay extra taxes, but i guess it varied a lot.
00:38:51 <HackEgo> 284) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder
00:38:57 <HackEgo> 350) <Gregor> You have no idea how desperately I want to avoid being a GC guy :P <Gregor> Every year I go to ISMM and Doug Lea gives me a bizarrely-cheery "Hello!" and I'm like "awww shit I'm in memory management"
00:38:58 <HackEgo> 691) <oerjan> fizzie: wait the germans burned lapland? they also burned finnmark. <fizzie> oerjan: It's a bit of what they do. This was the time when we no longer were such good friends any more, and told them to go away.
00:39:46 <HackEgo> 692) <Phantom_Hoover> oh jesus my mother is trying to ship bear grylls with miranda hart aerio;jghaeirugha
00:39:47 <HackEgo> 699) <Phantom_Hoover> There.... is a box of Gardasil next to the butter in my fridge. <Phantom_Hoover> At least my sandwich will be immune to cervical cancer *and* genital warts, I suppose.
00:39:47 <HackEgo> 819) <Gregor> My latest FB post: The worst part of floating point math is not the fact that 0.1 + 0.2 yields 0.30000000000000004, but trying to explain to people why their language is horribly broken if 0.1 + 0.2 does NOT yield 0.30000000000000004.
00:39:47 <HackEgo> 401) * Sgeo is risking massive forest fires <Sgeo> The bacon is worth it
00:39:47 <HackEgo> 273) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something
00:42:57 <HackEgo> 94) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists \ 184) <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better? \ 291) <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling'' <crystal-cola> since appare
00:43:11 <HackEgo> *poof* <Phantom_Hoover> oh jesus my mother is trying to ship bear grylls with miranda hart aerio;jghaeirugha
00:43:19 <HackEgo> 759) <Gregor> Very much like "cen" is Latin for "horse", "yak" is Latin for "yak".
00:43:19 <HackEgo> 318) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup
00:43:19 <HackEgo> 549) <Gregor> Hulu's movie selection is like MST3K without the MST3K characters.
00:43:20 <HackEgo> 367) <Phantom_Hoover> The wickedest man of all. <Phantom_Hoover> Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east. <copumpkin> you talking about me again? <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. <copumpkin> k
00:43:20 <HackEgo> 133) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb).
00:43:57 <GreyKnight> none seem particularly bad, mass pardon
00:44:14 <HackEgo> 746) <Taneb> thank you verse I'm not quite innocent
00:44:15 <HackEgo> 216) <fizzie> Deewiant: Did you take the course at some point and/or were you taking it now and/or did you actually already graduate and/or are you still in Otaniemi anyway?
00:44:15 <HackEgo> 670) <MDude> A quick look as WIikipedia ways that Wicca is a specific form of paganism related to witchcraft. <MDude> That agrees with what I know from that Scoobie Doo movie with the wiccans in it.
00:44:15 <HackEgo> 648) <monqy> i cnat eve begin to understand what you meant with that "one"
00:44:16 <HackEgo> 49) <Warrigal> I think hamsters cannot be inert.
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00:44:57 <HackEgo> 156) <zzo38> catseye: Please wake up. Not recorded for this timezone. The big spider is not your dream \ 241) <nddrylliog> back to legal tender, that expression really makes me daydream. Like, there'd be black-market tender. Out-of-town hug shops where people exchange tenderness you've NEVER SEEN BEFORE. \ 251) <Phantom__Hoover> Gregor, yeah, but P
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00:48:27 <shachaf> @ask monqy only you can save mankind
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01:00:50 <ion> @ask shachaf
01:01:15 <shachaf> ion: Consider yourself told.
01:01:22 * ion considers himself told.
01:02:17 <shachaf> sgeo: less nested. lessted.
01:02:44 <sgeo> See, I'm not the only one who brings chit-chat from other channels into here!
01:02:46 <ion> @@ @tell shachaf @echo @echo @echo @echo
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01:34:31 <shachaf> kmc: Do you know, if you have void foo(void (*)(void *p, T *x), void *p); which calls the function n times with the pointer you pass it, how to interface with it from GHC?
01:34:57 <quintopia> !bfjoust weird >(+)*20(>)*5([-[++[>([-[++[(>(+)*100[+][-][+.])*21]]])*22]]]>)*23(+)*112[[+][-][+]]
01:35:00 <shachaf> You could use foreign "wrapper" but that seems like overkill when you have an extra pointer right there.
01:35:09 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_weird: 17.8
01:35:44 <shachaf> Ideally you'd be able to take apart a GHC closure and put it back together on the other end, but in this case let's say you just want to foreign export a function and pass an IORef for each iteration -- is there an easy way of doing that?
01:35:45 <quintopia> there's a nasty bug in that that is the only reason it can beat space_hotel. it amuses me.
01:38:06 <shachaf> I guess you could use a StablePtr?
01:43:22 <kmc> shachaf: i don't quite follow
01:43:33 <kmc> do you want to use a haskell function as the first argument to 'foo'?
01:43:48 <shachaf> Ideally I want to use a Haskell closure.
01:44:09 <shachaf> But without actually generating executable code at runtime.
01:44:16 <shachaf> I think StablePtr is the answer to "how to do it explicitly".
01:44:56 <kmc> you would get a StablePtr to a function and use that for 'p'?
01:45:28 <sgeo> elliott, Phantom__Hoover Fiora
01:46:40 <shachaf> I guess you can't really do better than that.
01:48:23 <shachaf> StablePtrs also need to be managed explicitly, but I suppose you can't do much about that.
01:59:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust even >(+)*20(>)*5([-[++[>>>([-[++[(>>(+)*105(+.)*46)*21]]]>)*22]]]>)*23(+)*112[[+][-][+]]
01:59:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_even: 6.6
03:09:43 <shachaf> fizzie: I just failed to type Functor twice in a row, typing Fungot instead.
03:09:58 <fungot> shachaf: the present is a passed future is to invent a computational model
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04:03:43 <kmc> hey language lawyers, in C is &(f->a) undefined behavior for NULL f?
04:05:14 <kmc> yes offsetof might use that
04:05:50 <kmc> which is why i am not sure
04:06:07 <Gregor> I doubt that it's undefined, and that's so frequently an implementation of offsetof, I'd be surprised if any compiler choked on it.
04:06:21 <kmc> someone is seeing compiler behavior which would be easily explained if &(f->a) is undefined
04:09:30 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7897877/how-does-the-c-offsetof-macro-work claims that defining your own offsetof that way is UB.
04:09:37 <kmc> specifically: void f(struct foo *x) { g(&x->a); } void g(int *a) { if (a) { ... } }
04:09:41 <kmc> segfaults on f(NULL)
04:10:51 <kmc> that is how they have described their problem to me
04:10:56 <kmc> i have not attempted to reproduce it
04:12:14 <shachaf> Well, that's a different matter, though.
04:12:22 <shachaf> That can be UB even if getting the address isn't UB.
04:12:43 <shachaf> Are you allowed to do if (invalid_pointer) ?
04:13:00 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure void *p = malloc(n); free(p); if (p) { ... } is UB
04:13:39 <kmc> that is strange but believable
04:13:56 <shachaf> There was the example of some machine (IBM something?) that had registers that could only contain valid pointers.
04:14:30 <kmc> how would you even represent NULL on this platform?
04:14:53 <shachaf> NULL might be a special case.
04:15:29 <shachaf> I don't remember the details exactly.
04:15:41 <shachaf> This was one of mauke's example UB programs.
04:16:29 <shachaf> But I think the C standard specifically said you can't do almost anything with invalid pointers.
04:17:09 <Gregor> #musl is the place to ask.
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06:06:37 <lifthrasiir> Gregor, should I note that ShaFuck has been broken? http://shinhoge.blogspot.kr/2012/12/shafuck-is-not-unbeatable.html
06:08:06 <Gregor> “with the caveat that comments are not allowed”
06:08:13 <Gregor> That's been in the description since the beginning.
06:08:47 <lifthrasiir> okay, to be precise the *current implementation* of ShaFuck has been broken
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06:13:25 <Gregor> Why does my implementation accept this?!?!?!
06:13:41 <Gregor> fprintf(stderr, "Unrecognized operation '%c' (%02X)\n",
06:13:41 <Gregor> shaprog.buf[pi], (unsigned char) shaprog.buf[pi]);
06:15:07 <lifthrasiir> Gregor: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=ShaFuck&action=historysubmit&diff=35114&oldid=34130
06:15:27 <lifthrasiir> that check is only run when the instruction is about to be executed
06:15:30 <Bike> you mentioned it before, but i'd just like to compliment "The Eval that Men Do"
06:15:58 <Gregor> Yeah, I understand now.
06:16:32 <Bike> usually puns in paper names just piss me off but i like this one for some reason
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06:22:27 <sgeo> elliott monqy Fiora
06:22:30 <sgeo> I'm a bit late
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07:18:32 <lambdabot> danharaj says: unsafeCoerce should be renamed to badPun
07:19:27 <popl> Jafet: Did you used to hang out in ##C++?
07:22:06 <lambdabot> jafet says: "Zygomorphism" sounds like a reproductive disorder
07:22:11 <Jafet> @quote jafet c\+\+
07:22:11 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
07:22:25 <Jafet> @quote Jafet c\+\+
07:22:25 <lambdabot> Jafet says: [on ##c++] They're not nasty; their niceness is just distributed over more people.
07:24:29 <popl> Jafet: I hung out there in a past life. I seem to remember you, is all.
07:25:14 <popl> I should not have brought it up.
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07:28:46 <fizzie> But now it's brought up, and can never be taken down. :/
07:30:34 <Jafet> Send me a DMCA notice
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09:53:18 <oerjan> @tell GreyKnight <GreyKnight> finnmark is a place? <-- yes it is (norway's largest county (by area, not population), it got rebuilt after the germans burnt it); for some reason this amazes certain people on this channel...
09:57:22 <oklofok> don't believe him, it's just their name for finland and he's being incredibly racist.
09:59:18 <oklofok> we've been autonomous from the democratic republik of the norways for _years_
10:02:08 <oerjan> @tell GreyKnight Other county names you may find amusing - oh heck let me just list them all: Akershus, Aust-Agder, Buskerud, Finnmark, Hedmark, Hordaland, Møre og Romsdal, Nord-Trøndelag, Nordland, Oppland, Oslo, Rogaland, Sogn og Fjordane, Sør-Trøndelag, Telemark, Troms, Vest-Agder, Vestfold, and Østfold.
10:02:44 <oklofok> does "Møre og Romsdal" mean "more of romsdal"
10:03:37 <oklofok> so there were some positions advertised in your uni
10:06:39 <oklofok> i know like 3 norwegian words _fluently_
10:07:54 <oklofok> i suppose that's where the term comes?
10:08:23 <oklofok> so "o/" if you get adjoints
10:08:57 <oklofok> (i won't ask about them, just interested)
10:09:53 <fizzie> Is Oppland very high opp?
10:09:57 <oerjan> i vaguely get adjoints. i understand that free and underlying functors are adjoint, and that composing adjoints gives (all) monads
10:10:30 <oerjan> fizzie: they do have mountains, although i think it's more in the "up from the coast" sense
10:10:50 <fizzie> Do they also have ircops?
10:10:50 <oerjan> it's the only county not to have a coast
10:10:56 <oklofok> there's this paper about how CA are comonadic and how some known results come from that fact for free
10:11:20 <fizzie> oerjan: "Oppland is, together with Hedmark, one of the only two landlocked counties of Norway."
10:11:33 <fizzie> Is Wikipedia or oerjan the liar? You decide!
10:11:51 <oerjan> hey you're not a liar just because you make an off-by-one error.
10:11:54 <oklofok> they counted it twice because it's also landlocked from above.
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10:12:47 <oerjan> i misremembered a quiz answer from the newspaper. oppland is the only one to have _neither_ a coast nor a border with a neighboring country.
10:13:00 <shachaf> monqy: did you learn lenses yet
10:13:07 <shachaf> monqy: forget everything you know about lenses
10:13:36 <oklofok> does inevitable also mean someone who cannot be evited anywhere because they're not on facebook
10:14:03 <oerjan> eviting is a facebook term now?
10:14:24 * oerjan is inevitable *MWAHAHAHAHA*
10:14:25 <monqy> shachaf: that's my plan
10:14:55 <oklofok> been for like half a year now
10:15:03 <shachaf> monqy: because we've just made lenses
10:15:11 <oklofok> it was quite a thrill at first, you should try it
10:15:45 <oklofok> i can be your friend, i'm trying to get to 10000.
10:15:55 <oerjan> shachaf: does that mean we can do polymorphic update with fields that must be the same type?
10:16:56 <shachaf> oerjan: type Iso s t a b = (Functor f, Functor g) => (g a -> f b) -> g s -> f t
10:16:59 <oerjan> ...i refuse to believe anyone on this channel can get to 10000 without becoming famous first.
10:17:25 <oerjan> um Iso is already known isn't it?
10:17:49 <oerjan> oops this is different
10:18:18 <oerjan> to know, i would first have to know the original Iso properly.
10:18:34 <oerjan> oh well i assume i'll read all about it on reddit.
10:19:28 <oerjan> wait, maybe oklofok _is_ famous. he could be in a black metal band without having told us. (or perhaps having told and us forgetting.)
10:20:24 * oerjan vaguely recalls oklofok looks like he's in a black metal band, despite never having seen a picture of him.
10:20:36 <oklofok> i have been in at least one metal band at pretty much any given moment of my life.
10:20:57 <oklofok> oerjan: i think i have like 20 friends on fb atm
10:20:59 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { printf("%s", -0x80000000 > 0 ? "C is tricksy" : "logic still holds"); }
10:21:01 <oerjan> yay my prejudices are correct! as always.
10:21:30 <oerjan> oklofok: i'd like to see a picture of you in a metal band as a baby.
10:21:57 <oklofok> i don't like doing gigs so fame is not really a threat
10:22:48 <oklofok> i've been on three gigs as a singer for other bands, and that's it unless you count performances at school
10:24:13 <sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora
10:24:20 <Jafet> `runc int main() { puts(__typeof__(0x80000000)); }
10:24:40 <oerjan> fizzie: um i assume that 8 is the sign bit...
10:25:19 <oerjan> alternatively the type is unsigned
10:25:33 <fizzie> oerjan: 0x80000000 ends up unsigned, yes.
10:25:38 <Jafet> `runc int main() { printf("%z, %z", 0x80000000, -0x80000000); }
10:25:45 <fizzie> 0x7fffffff would be signed, as would 0x100000000.
10:25:49 <Jafet> `runc int main() { printf("%d, %d", 0x80000000, -0x80000000); }
10:26:01 <fizzie> You're printing them wrong.
10:26:12 <fizzie> They're unsigned ints and you're telling printf to print signed ints.
10:26:14 <Jafet> `runc int main() { printf("%s", 0x80000000); }
10:26:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/runc: line 3: 283 Segmentation fault $t
10:26:33 <oerjan> `runc int main(void) { printf("%s", -(int)0x80000000 > 0 ? "C is tricksy" : "logic still holds"); }
10:27:06 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { printf("%s", -0x100000000 > 0 ? "C is tricksy" : "logic still holds"); }
10:27:26 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
10:27:27 <fizzie> That one works because it doesn't fit in unsigned int either, and therefore goes to signed long (or long long).
10:27:54 <oerjan> ok then, C _is_ tricksy.
10:28:02 <fizzie> `runc int main(void) { printf("%s", -2147483648 > 0 ? "C is tricksy" : "logic still holds"); }
10:28:13 <fizzie> And that one works because decimal constants have different rules than octal/hex constants.
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10:29:05 <oerjan> ais523: fizzie is abusing C again, ban him!
10:29:30 <ais523> oerjan: isn't C /made/ to be abused?
10:29:44 <fizzie> Just look at how it's dressed. It's obvious it wants to be abused.
10:31:54 <oklofok> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
10:35:03 <fizzie> Also also, 2147483648 is unsigned in C90 if LONG_MAX < 2147483648, but signed always in C99. So -2147483648 > 0 might end up true too, e.g. on a "32-bit" C90 system.
10:37:31 <elliott> `lang c int main(void) { printf("abc\n"); }
10:37:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lang: not found
10:37:46 <fizzie> I did try "interp c" and it didn't work out at all.
10:38:26 <fizzie> In fact, none of the 'gcccomp'-based ones really seem to be working.
10:38:39 <fizzie> `interp c printf("abc"); /* IIRC it has a template */
10:38:56 <HackEgo> cat: /bin: Is a directory \ Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./
10:38:57 <fizzie> Just look at that mess.
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11:01:25 <Jafet> I didn't know you could run two versions of ais at the same time.
11:04:01 <oerjan> it's a highly dangerous prospect
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11:06:48 <fizzie> Ais Dismikroutsikos. (By way of analogy from Hermes Trismegistus, via a complete lack of knowledge of Greek.)
11:06:48 <oerjan> most likely some feather operation went wrong and duplicated a version retroactively instead of replacing it
11:07:50 <oerjan> it will have happened during another test of the implementation
11:09:05 <fizzie> Perhaps it "wioll haven be" happened.
11:10:08 <fizzie> ("You can arrive (mayan arivan on-when) for any sitting you like without prior (late fore-when) reservation because you can book retrospectively, as it were when you return to your own time. (You can have on-book haventa forewhen presooning returningwenta retrohome.)")
11:10:53 <elliott> ais521: you should really pick a less confusing nickname.
11:11:48 <ais521> I'll just go back to the old one then
11:11:52 -!- ais521 has changed nick to AnotherTest.
11:14:25 -!- AnotherTest has changed nick to YetAnotherTestBe.
11:14:36 -!- YetAnotherTestBe has changed nick to AnotherTest.
11:14:54 <AnotherTest> Well YetAnotherTestBeforeTheActualRelease was too long
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12:10:49 <ais523> <oerjan> most likely some feather operation went wrong and duplicated a version retroactively instead of replacing it ← this is entirely possible, you can even do it intentionally if you feel like it; the easiest way is to retroactively set an object to something that contains a copy of itself
12:11:11 <ais523> then you can repeat arbitrarily many times, in order to create an object that's based entirely on itself, as far back as anyone checks
12:11:43 <ais523> and this is how, I hope at least, you can retroactively change an ancestor of a Feather implementation to always have been written in Feather
12:11:56 <ais523> as you might gather, though, I've never actually been able to make it work
12:13:13 <oerjan> i get a "trying to switch quantifiers" vibe
12:14:33 <oerjan> from "for all n you can get it to be feather back to that n" to "you can get it to be feather for all n"
12:14:48 <oerjan> which is not necessarily mathematically sound
12:15:48 <oerjan> or, the thing about "as far back as anyone checks" is that you need to repeat that far, which is uncomputable in advance
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12:36:38 <ais523> oerjan: nah, you have retroactive changes, so you start by picking an arbitrary number of times to repeat
12:36:49 <ais523> should someone check back further than that, then you retroactively change it to be more
12:38:09 <oerjan> as long as you have enough monitoring to detect the check...
12:38:22 <oerjan> this sounds vaguely totalitarian :P
12:38:55 <oerjan> WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH EAST ASIA
12:41:38 <ais523> oerjan: well the great thing is, by default the monitoring is perfect, but you can retroactively change it to be imperfect and get back in history that way :)
12:50:29 <AnotherTest> How many characters can an average human read a second?
12:51:37 <oerjan> ah. sadly that means murphy's law triggers and you will find the entire universe keeping the information from you.
12:52:07 <AnotherTest> Well, I guess I'll just determine an average speed of reading a character by testing it
12:52:33 <oerjan> I SENSE A BIASED SELECTION OF AVERAGE HUMANS HERE
12:57:10 <fizzie> "While the average adult reading rate is 250 words per minute --" Wikipedia "Speed reading" article.
12:58:22 <fizzie> 250 words is 25 words?
12:58:29 <oerjan> I SENSE POSSIBLY A BUG HERE
12:58:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure if words' length distribution is particularly reliable either. I remember it being discussed, though.
12:59:20 <AnotherTest> Well, 18 aw actually pretty close to 20.8333
12:59:39 <fizzie> 5 is a good estimate for that.
12:59:57 <shachaf> Well, I guess a character isn't necessarily 8 bits.
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13:02:31 <AnotherTest> let's say that it takes about .5 to make a mouse click if you don't have to move the mouse and your finger is already on it?
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13:15:09 <sgeo> Oh hey Superosity has a 12/21 story arc, almost forgot about that
13:40:41 <oklofok> 350 is pretty slow for a reaction time + mouse click, and i'm pretty sure the actual click is less than half of that
13:41:26 <AnotherTest> Yeah, I decided to put it on 250 ms afterall
13:42:09 <oklofok> that's a nice leisurely clicking speed prolly
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13:52:41 <sgeo> Should I bother trying to get Factor running on HackEgo?
13:53:27 * sgeo takes monqy's statement as support for that action, despite the possibility it might have been sarcastic
13:53:37 <shachaf> monqy: did you hear about incredilenses
13:53:38 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
13:53:46 <monqy> shachaf: multiple times, yes.
13:53:54 <sgeo> `wget http://downloads.factorcode.org/releases/0.95/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
13:53:56 <HackEgo> --2012-12-17 13:53:55-- http://downloads.factorcode.org/releases/0.95/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... failed: Connection refused.
13:54:21 <sgeo> `curl http://downloads.factorcode.org/releases/0.95/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
13:54:24 <HackEgo> % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
13:55:07 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ ibins \ interps \ karma \ lib \ luabuild \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.rockspec \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.src.rock \ luarocks.err \ luarocks.out \ paste \ penlight-1.0.0-1.rockspec \ penlight-1.0.0-1.src.rock \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
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13:55:33 <sgeo> `fetch http://downloads.factorcode.org/releases/0.95/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
13:55:56 <HackEgo> 2012-12-17 13:55:52 URL:http://downloads.factorcode.org/releases/0.95/factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz [33944136/33944136] -> "factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz" [1]
13:55:57 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ ibins \ interps \ karma \ lib \ luabuild \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.rockspec \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.src.rock \ luarocks.err \ luarocks.out \ paste \ penlight-1.0.0-1.rockspec \ penlight-1.0.0-1.src.rock \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \ zalgo.hi
13:56:22 <sgeo> `tar xvaf factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
13:56:24 <HackEgo> tar: Old option `f' requires an argument. \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
13:56:30 <sgeo> `run tar xvaf factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz
13:56:35 <HackEgo> factor/ \ factor/factor.image \ File size limit exceeded
13:59:34 <shachaf> monqy: just thought you might want to know
14:02:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ulimit: not found
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17:06:25 -!- quintopia has set topic: Th i te na io al hu f r xo he mi v od o ro ra mi g nd as ra s ft ar p oj ct on an d pl ym nt | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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17:46:04 <sgeo> `run ulimit -f
17:46:53 <sgeo> My ulimit says the unit is blocks
17:54:30 <sgeo> Found a bug in Factor
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18:17:25 <fizzie> My "man bash" says it's in 1024-byte increments, except for some exceptions.
18:17:38 <fizzie> (It's the bash ulimit, after all.)
18:17:56 <Deewiant> blocks The number of 512-byte blocks to use as the new file size limit.
18:18:21 <Deewiant> From my POSIX ulimit man page.
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18:21:09 <kmc> is there a particular reason why the command is named 'ulimit' but the system calls are named after 'rlimit'
18:21:34 <fizzie> Yes, but the command being executed there *is* the bash ulimit. See e.g. http://sprunge.us/VjNg
18:21:51 <fizzie> `run sh -c 'ulimit -f'
18:21:55 <fizzie> Now that, that's in blocks.
18:22:34 <Deewiant> How nice that there's this arbitrary difference.
18:23:36 <sgeo> So what exactly is the maximum file size in a sane unit?
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18:24:23 <fizzie> 10240 kilobytes or 20480 512-byte blocks.
18:24:27 <sgeo> :/ at the Factor image being more than that
18:25:00 <sgeo> Or at least, that's why I assume it didn't work
18:25:31 <sgeo> At least, my copy is
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18:53:26 <GreyKnight> (re: /topic) Every third character? What a boring pattern.
18:53:27 <lambdabot> GreyKnight: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:54:30 <GreyKnight> @tell oerjan I thought that perhaps Finland and Denmark had merged, and I had missed the memo
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18:57:23 <fizzie> Merged, and then split again back into Finnmark and Denland?
19:06:24 -!- nooga has joined.
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19:14:31 <GreyKnight> maybe take half of each and pair them up crosswise
19:23:14 <kmc> crossover is important!
19:40:45 <olsner> every third character? that's "T tniah rxhm oorrmgnar fa ocoa pynt" which makes no sense
19:45:05 <sgeo> https://github.com/slavapestov/factor/issues/763
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19:49:51 -!- GreyKnight has set topic: T n ern t ona ub or es t ric p ogr m ing langu ge de i n and dep o ment! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:51:25 <GreyKnight> sgeo: you might be the first tester :-P
19:52:19 <sgeo> The first person to type wrong locals syntax into Factor?
19:52:25 <sgeo> Almost wrote Clojure, derp
19:54:30 <GreyKnight> you said Factor had a tiny community, so perhaps the implementation you are using has only been used by its author so far :-)
19:56:00 <kmc> "The ngx_http_empty_gif_module keeps a 1x1 transparent GIF in memory that can be served very quickly."
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19:58:20 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 1h 3m 49s ago: I thought that perhaps Finland and Denmark had merged, and I had missed the memo
19:59:47 <oerjan> <sgeo> Should I bother trying to get Factor running on HackEgo?
19:59:54 <oerjan> sheesh HackEgo already has factor
20:01:10 <sgeo> I wonder if I can make the factor.image smaller by bootstrapping it
20:01:21 <sgeo> Is it reasonable to try to compile stuff on HackEgo?
20:01:25 <HackEgo> factor: `let :>' is not a valid positive integer
20:01:36 <sgeo> The problem is [let :> ]
20:01:56 <sgeo> Which is bad syntax, but it breaks the parser in such a way that good syntax later fails
20:01:57 <olsner> `run ls -l `which factor`
20:01:59 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 31584 Apr 28 2010 /usr/bin/factor
20:02:04 <GreyKnight> I guess I don't know enough Factor to make jokes about it :<
20:02:41 <kmc> Factor? more like fat turd
20:02:45 <kmc> a witty joke
20:03:19 <sgeo> If you look at it just right, it's a comment on the size of factor.image
20:03:31 <GreyKnight> sgeo: I managed to compile Lua on HackEgo although it was a bit awkward
20:03:36 <kmc> Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping
20:03:58 <GreyKnight> `run echo 'print("hello world")' | lua
20:04:00 <HackEgo> Lua 5.2.1 Copyright (C) 1994-2012 Lua.org, PUC-Rio \ > hello world \ >
20:04:06 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:06:17 <oerjan> > map fst . filter((/=' ').snd) $ zip [0..] "T n ern t ona ub or es t ric p ogr m ing langu ge de i n and dep o ment!"
20:06:19 <lambdabot> [0,5,7,8,9,11,13,14,15,19,20,23,24,26,27,29,31,32,33,35,37,38,39,41,43,44,4...
20:06:19 <sgeo> Maybe I should look into Lua
20:06:25 <sgeo> There's an interesting looking Lua IDE...
20:06:46 <kmc> sgeo: maybe you should have long conversations with yourself about Lua in #esoteric
20:06:49 <oerjan> > map fst . filter((==' ').snd) $ zip [1..] "T n ern t ona ub or es t ric p ogr m ing langu ge de i n and dep o ment!"
20:06:51 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,7,11,13,17,18,19,22,23,26,29,31,35,37,41,43,47,53,56,59,61,63,67,7...
20:11:23 <GreyKnight> (some of the spaces are from the original, of course)
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20:13:09 <sgeo> http://studio.zerobrane.com/
20:14:46 <GreyKnight> looks interesting! I usually just use emacs but I might give this a test-drive sometime
20:15:09 <ais521> My AI said "Liberality is books"
20:15:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `:'
20:16:03 -!- ais521 has changed nick to AnotherTest.
20:16:37 <GreyKnight> hm I should put a scheme implementation on HackEgo
20:20:18 <GreyKnight> `rng write_one_in_haskell just_download_it_you_goof
20:23:24 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `D'
20:26:25 <sgeo> nortti, great, now I'm reading qdb
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20:26:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `D'Not in scope: data constructor `D'
20:26:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `:'
20:27:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:6: Parse error in pattern: : D
20:27:17 <nortti> sgeo: be grateful I din't link tvtropes
20:27:18 <FreeFull> Damn haskell and enforced capitalisation restrictions =P
20:28:01 <sgeo> elliott, Taneb Phantom_Hoover Fiora monqy
20:28:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `)'
20:28:58 <GreyKnight> nortti: I got potholed into memory-alpha earlier tonight. Still haven't found my way out.
20:32:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `^'
20:33:04 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input `)'
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20:35:37 <Deewiant> _ is considered alphabetic and can't be mixed with symbols like ^
20:36:31 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input `;'
20:36:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `O_O'
20:36:54 <olsner> ah, yes, _ is clearly an alphabet
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20:39:57 <nortti> AnotherTest: what is anwer for "this sencence is false"
20:40:24 <AnotherTest> What is answer for "this sentence is false"?
20:40:43 <Taneb> "That isn't a question"
20:43:50 <GreyKnight> AnotherTest: "Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?"
20:45:14 <AnotherTest> Why has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
20:45:14 <AnotherTest> ðelphi: Or has who would now be preserved as a museum all.
20:46:26 <AnotherTest> Well, it answered "Or has who would now be preserved as a museum all."
20:46:54 <AnotherTest> It means that rich people from earlier days, don't have everything either
20:47:28 <GreyKnight> I mean, why are you telling us to "drop the why" when neither you nor we put it in...?
20:48:07 <AnotherTest> so I told you to imagine that it wasn't there
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20:54:36 <oerjan> nortti: i detect a certain decrease in quality.
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20:57:10 <GreyKnight> AnotherTest: ask it what will happen if Croesus attacks the Persians
20:58:05 <olsner> AnotherTest: what happens if I attack the Persians?
20:58:37 <Fiora> make sure to have pikemen to defeat their war elephants?
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21:02:21 <elliott> Fiora: I read that as "pikmin". I've barely even played pikmin
21:02:38 <Fiora> I was thinking more along the lines of civilization or age of empires
21:02:42 <GreyKnight> AnotherTest: also ask it how many pikmin are needed to pick up an elephant
21:03:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:04:08 <Arc_Koen> pikmin can only pick min can't they?
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21:04:43 <olsner> choose pikmax for your elephant piking needs
21:05:48 <kmc> age of empires itt
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21:08:26 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I have a (mostly functional) lua module for handling gopher communications \o/
21:17:20 <sgeo> "A graffiti message was written in a threatening tone in a mens room on campus. This incident has been investigated. Nevertheless, in light of recent events, we are notifying you. Rest assured, we are taking precautions, including additional State University Police personnel."
21:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh, 'Haskell' actually has two different etymologies, one English and one Jewish.
21:18:05 <Bike> "jewish"? it doesn't look remotely hebrew, you mean like yiddish or something?
21:18:28 <Bike> "descendent of Ezekiel" well fuck me
21:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/haskelovski#Serbo-Croatian i
21:20:42 <Bike> great though, now i'm going to be wondering if curry was jewish or norse
21:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> probably jewish, he was american and a logician after all
21:21:23 <olsner> "Curry: A family name of Irish origin, from Ó Comhraidhe"
21:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover> wp doesn't list him under 'american jews' or anything, so...
21:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "There are three programming languages named after him, Haskell, Brooks and Curry,"
21:23:23 <Bike> well carl isn't so great, it's the name of a gas station attendant
21:23:32 <olsner> speaking of nationality disputes, you should start an edit war about it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars#People)
21:24:20 <Bike> so we're going to have a war about whether curry was (a) an anglo-irish jew (b) a time traveling viking?
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21:24:56 <olsner> obviously a time traveling viking
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21:26:41 <GreyKnight> Time-travelling anglo-Irish Jewish Viking
21:27:37 <Bike> "also he did some math"
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21:37:45 <GreyKnight> Well, of course. That's how he invented time travel.
21:40:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The time travel combinator is kept securely locked in a vault a mile beneath Bromwich.
21:50:20 <olsner> a burrito is not a very safe place to store time travel combinators
21:53:33 <oerjan> depends _when_ you store it
21:54:31 <GreyKnight> store it so that it is always precisely one second in the past. Perfect security.
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21:59:47 <Phantom_Hoover> It's protected both by rock and the fact that nobody cares enough to know where Bromwich is.
22:00:51 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's like, South somewhere, right?
22:01:22 <olsner> ... wherever that is :)
22:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So just outside the radius at which my understanding of English geography degenerates into "the rest of England".
22:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have trouble distinguishing Birmingham and Manchester.
22:03:32 <Taneb> Aren't those, like, the same place?
22:04:14 <olsner> do they both look like Sheffield?
22:05:12 <Taneb> Sheffield's south, isn't it?
22:05:32 <olsner> hmm, maybe I'm confusing it with somewhere else
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22:18:58 <zzo38> Do the monad transformer laws imply t Finalize = Finalize
22:18:58 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:19:14 <lambdabot> GreyKnight asked 21h 58m 29s ago: Under "games" on zzo38computer.org, hangman has a weird line type. Can you explain? Also, I can't access the root menu by sending a blank selector, only "root".
22:20:22 <zzo38> GreyKnight: The weird line type is for brainfuck you can ignore it since it isn't important and it won't work. If you can't access the root menu by sending a blank selector, your gopher client is broken; apparently the two clients included with Debian have this problem, while others work OK.
22:20:37 <zzo38> But you can use "root" as the selector string to work around, if you are having that problem.
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22:24:13 <zzo38> StateT x Finalize = ReaderT x Finalize = WriterT x Finalize = MaybeT Finalize = Codensity Finalize = Yoneda Finalize = ContT x Finalize = LogicT Finalize = Finalize
22:24:39 <zzo38> The other thing is does the comonad transformers laws imply t Initialize = Initialize
22:25:32 <zzo38> For example EnvT x Initialize = StoreT x Initialize = Density Initialize = TraceT x Initialize = Initialize
22:33:43 <Vorpal> hm, to match up to the boot time of Linux booting from a regular HDD, Windows 7 needs to boot from an SSD on this computer. This is kind of crazy
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22:46:06 <Jafet> That's crazy. You must be loading way too few kernel modules into linux.
22:46:32 <Jafet> Install the Unity desktop and try again.
22:49:03 <Jafet> It loads a lot of compiz plugins.
22:49:30 <sgeo> shachaf.............
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22:49:44 <shachaf> why are you following me on irc
22:50:04 <sgeo> It's a coincidence.
22:51:18 <sgeo> Found some channels you're not in
22:51:38 <shachaf> Yes, I purged my IRC client of a bunch of channels a while ago.
22:53:22 <FireFly> shachaf: eh, nice channel overlap
22:53:38 * FireFly notices that this is the only channel they have in common with sgeo though
22:54:13 <shachaf> What am I even doing in all those channels?
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23:00:32 <GreyKnight> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Haskell
23:02:18 <Bike> that's a pretty shitty way to die
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23:07:29 <Phantom_Hoover> As a black guy wearing a red shirt he should probably have avoided appearing onscreen like the plague.
23:07:57 <Bike> and he probably did! right up to that episode
23:08:19 <Jafet> Is this the guy in the memegif
23:08:31 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
23:13:13 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ ibins \ interps \ karma \ lib \ luabuild \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.rockspec \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.src.rock \ luarocks.err \ luarocks.out \ paste \ penlight-1.0.0-1.rockspec \ penlight-1.0.0-1.src.rock \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo \
23:13:42 <sgeo> `run ls factor
23:13:43 <HackEgo> bash: zalgo: command not found
23:13:54 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....3@.....@....... .........@.8..@.(.%.......@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@.....T
23:14:17 <shachaf> `run echo hello there | ./zalgo
23:14:19 <HackEgo> h̊ë́l͒l͒o̞ ͖tͦh̻eͣr͕eͅ \ ̐
23:14:37 <shachaf> `run echo your time has come, FireFly | ./zalgo
23:14:39 <HackEgo> y̲o̢u̧r͕ ͈t̽i̮m͏e͕ ͦh̨a̷s͢ ͙c͙o̩m̷e͜,̬ ̠F̅i͡r̙e͠F̆l̎yͪ \ ͘
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23:20:40 <sgeo> Ugh, looking on http://downloads.factorcode.org/images/
23:20:43 <sgeo> I don't see 0.95
23:20:52 <sgeo> And if I went for latest, I'd have to compile the VM
23:22:13 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
23:22:27 <GreyKnight> `run echo "`welcome shachaf" | ./zalgo
23:22:29 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
23:22:55 <shachaf> `run welcome GreyKnight | ./zalgo
23:22:57 <HackEgo> Gͭr̔e̸yͭK̓n̏i͍g͑h̘tͨ:͎ ̃Wͣe͋l̏c̦o͌m̤e̦ ͬt́o͠ ̡tͤḧe̓ ̊i͎n̞t̺e̸r͏n̻a͟t̮i͚oͨnͤa̐l̽ ͖h̹u̝b͗ ̾fͦőr͂ ͝e̟s̻o͓ṫe͡r̨i͡c̐ ͇p͢r͞o͡ģr͔aͨm̸ṃi͚n̾g̐ ͤlͤaͮn͎g̓u͞a͝g̵è ͈d̵eͦs̩i̧g̈nͥ ̾ān̮d̓ ͗d͌e̴p̖lͯo͝y̚m͞e͗ṋt͖!ͯ ̽F̏õr̉ ͟m̭örͯe͈ ̭iͪn͒f́o͆r̎m
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23:23:15 <HackEgo> 5̶8͞8ͅ)̐ ̇(͗Ōf̷ ̳Mͭiͬn̈e͇c̸r͒aͅf̀tͣ:̕)ͥ ͇<̣èl̥l̮i̅o͙ẗ́t͏>͢ ̥S͠o͒ ͭb̎a͂s̎iͦcͥăl̻l͍y̗ ̘I͎ ͭd̪i̓d̗n̷'̀ṯ ̃ưn͓d̑e͊r̵s̓t͒a̴nͨdͩ ̷w̬h̛a̴t͗ ͉i̫t͊ ̩w͛a̺s̱ ̝a͓tͥ ̨äl͖l̠,͉ ̬I̪ ͨtͯh͛óu̚g̓h̏tͅ ͍m̱a͔ýb̴e̒ ̔ŷo̵ư ̣w͂e̯r̴e͈ ͙m͊e͐än͋t̚ ̬tͅo
23:23:28 <HackEgo> 588) (Of Minecraft:) <elliott> So basically I didn't understand what it was at all, I thought maybe you were meant to be like a worm and just sort of wriggle about underground.
23:23:40 <HackEgo> 2ͦ1͝8̺)͖ ͤ<̱Ă.ͩ ͗Ǵeͬl͙m̷a̱n͗ ͘a̋n̉d̉ ̗G̉.͌ ̥R̖o͚m̡ér̓o̅>͖ ̍W͂eͩ ̻o͡r̂iͅg̣ȉn̬a̺l͉lͧy̆ ͕w͋rͮo͇t̖e̓ ͧt͉h͙ïṡ ̅a͞r̔t̷i̫c̳l̉e̙ ̝i̋n̫ ͪW̕o͈r̄d̥,̞ ̊b̻u̔t̏ ͠t̾h̙e̼nͧ ͐w̛e̟ ̊c͢oͧńv̪e͕r̲t̵e̿dͅ ͊i̙t͓ ̉ṱo͘ ͟L̺a̍t̔e̞x͞ ͣt͆o͡ ͡m̷a̢ḵê ͦi̼t
23:23:47 <HackEgo> zalgo \ zalgo.hi \ zalgo.hs \ zalgo.o
23:24:37 <HackEgo> ?̄ \ ͬ@̳ \ ̓Ｗ͚ＥͯＬ̾Ｃ̔Ｏ̲Ｍ̲Ｅ̱ \ ͇a̗dͩd̶q̈́uͬoͪt̹ě \ ͕a͑l̢lͅqͬu͒o̳ťe̷ṣ \ ͝ạnͮo͒n̬l͋o͈g͢ \ ͇c̳a̅l̷c̎ \ ̤d͈e͡f̯i̶n̊e̦ \ ͔d̺e͇l̃qͣŭo͟t̄eͤ \ ̓e͏t͖y̔m̎o̒l̻o̻g͓y̕ \ ̽fͬoͦȓgͧětͨ \ ͏f̞o͎řţu͢n̵eͫ \ ͅf̣r̾i͗n̺k̽ \ ̰f̰u̙c̟k͢ \ ́g͐oͤo͖g̾l͢e
23:24:53 <sgeo> `paste zalgo.hs
23:24:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16210
23:27:41 <kmc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ascii"
23:27:59 <kmc> which chromium interprets as ISO-8859-1
23:28:13 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see the new lensish things?
23:28:20 <kmc> probably not
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23:35:14 <GreyKnight> @tell zzo38 my "client" in the case of trying to access the root was just telnet. I also used some of my own code to directly send "\r\n" but got no response. I think it is YOUR code which is broken sir! :-)
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23:43:37 <GreyKnight> ...maybe after I finish bouncing on and off the network
23:43:50 <GreyKnight> sgeo: is Factor an interesting language?
23:45:11 <shachaf> Factor is basically the same thing as Clojure.
23:46:40 <sgeo> GreyKnight, shachaf is not being serious
23:46:41 <GreyKnight> also, does shachaf know you're using his IRC nick, sgeo?!
23:47:03 <sgeo> GreyKnight, shachaf is like a high-level Forth
23:47:13 <sgeo> ...Factor is like a high-level Forth
23:47:35 <GreyKnight> `addquote <sgeo> GreyKnight, shachaf is like a high-level Forth
23:47:39 <HackEgo> 871) <sgeo> GreyKnight, shachaf is like a high-level Forth
23:48:13 <sgeo> At the REPL or in a file?
23:48:22 <sgeo> "Hello, world!" print
23:49:04 <sgeo> To add two numbers:
23:49:10 <GreyKnight> oh yes, you said something about it being stack-based
23:49:45 <sgeo> 5 0 > [ "5 > 0" print ] [ "!@#$" print ] if
23:51:31 <GreyKnight> at least we avoid messy usage of "then" and "else", okay :-)
23:52:13 <GreyKnight> seems similar to PostScript so far, maybe I can learn it
23:52:15 <GreyKnight> (well of course I *can* but you know what I mean)
23:54:19 <sgeo> PostScript is also stack-based
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23:56:41 <lambdabot> greyooze: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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23:57:11 <fizzie> It is, and you also push procedures on the stack for conditionals to operate on.
23:57:44 <greyooze> hm so do you mean that's NOT what the []s are doing above?
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23:58:43 <fizzie> As far as I know, that is what the []s are doing; therefore, "also".
23:58:55 <fizzie> As in, as opposed to Forth, where you don't.
23:58:58 <sgeo> the [ ] are anonymous procedures (called quotations in Factor)
23:59:05 <kmc> good goatkcd today
23:59:17 <fizzie> PostScript types them with { } but otherwise it's very similar.
23:59:34 <GreyKnight> I think I am confused by your wording, fizzie
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00:00:09 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Why? I just said that you do the kind of thing you do in Factor also in PostScript.
00:00:12 <GreyKnight> oh, so Forth differs from Factor in this area
00:01:39 <GreyKnight> I interpreted your first comment as "Postscript is stack-based like Factor, except that also in PostScript you can push procedures on the stack"
00:01:40 <GreyKnight> to be fair it is late and I should be asleep
00:03:29 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Quit: let's rectify the latter).
00:03:53 <fizzie> I think Factor has the colon word-definition syntax from Forth, though -- : foo ... ... ; to define foo -- whereas PostScript doesn't have special syntax for that; it's just /foo { ... } def where /foo is a syntax for pushing a "name", and { ... } pushes a procedure, and def pops them both and adds an entry in the (current) dictionary.
00:04:14 <fizzie> (The current dictionary is the dictionary on top of the dictionary stack.)
00:06:23 <sgeo> o.O i think I prefer PostScript's
00:06:35 <sgeo> Yes, Factor has Forth-style colon word-definition
00:06:49 <sgeo> Except the stack effect is mandatory and checked
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00:11:50 <fizzie> PostScript's main problem as a general-purpose language is IMO that for some weird reason it's full of page-definition stuff.
00:13:38 <Arc_Koen> Gregor: about shafuck... Isn't there a risk that the junk would contain some unmatched [ or ] bytes that would have an effect on what's run and what isn't?
00:14:29 <Arc_Koen> or can you afford to just keep generating chunks until one is ok?
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00:44:36 <kmc> is shafuck shachaf's brainfuck
00:45:59 <shachaf> kmc: If Phantom_Hoover does something to me I hold you responsible.
00:46:44 <shachaf> Anyway it's probably shubshub.
00:46:53 <shachaf> 00:10:35 <shubshub> I should make a Language that only sometimes works :D ill call it MaybeNumericBatch
00:47:04 <shachaf> 00:11:22 <shubshub> ill just reprogram my language to Only work if a certain random number is met :D
00:48:16 <kmc> i tried to report a bug in debian and the experience was... frustrating
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01:02:19 <elliott> shachaf wrote a brainfuck derivative
01:03:52 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I did no such thing. :-(
01:10:10 <kmc> shachaf: this year I'm giving the last lecture in zombie 6.001 :)
01:10:40 <shachaf> Oh, is that still going on?
01:10:46 <kmc> which is about incompleteness / halting problem / lambda calculus / church encoding / y combinator
01:11:02 <kmc> yeah, it happens every january
01:11:29 <shachaf> I heard the halting probblem was "a pretty cool problem"
01:11:30 <kmc> 6.001 was MIT's famous introduction to fundamental CS concepts, using the scheme language
01:11:52 <kmc> they cancelled it a while back in favor of a more practical class
01:11:53 <shachaf> And Church encoding "a pretty cool encoding"
01:12:18 <shachaf> Are you going to pretend Scheme is non-strict?
01:12:25 <shachaf> It makes Y so much easier to understand. :-(
01:12:26 <kmc> but some former students (and hangers-on like me) teach it during the January Independent Activities Period
01:12:51 <kmc> shachaf: not sure
01:13:00 <kmc> by that point they have already been exposed to lazy evaluation in lectures
01:13:21 <kmc> and the whiteboarded description of Y is sufficiently removed from actual scheme that i could probably get away with it
01:13:53 <c00kiemon5ter> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-3.html this :)
01:15:10 <kmc> hmm i have... conflicting opinions of that quote :)
01:16:57 <kmc> om nom nom
01:17:23 <kmc> it makes me smile but also groan a bit
01:18:05 <kmc> have you seen http://www.cs.yale.edu/quotes.html
01:19:08 <kmc> the same as the author of the quote you linked
01:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> has c00kiemon5ter been here before with a different nick
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01:32:59 <sgeo> http://factor-language.blogspot.com/2010/01/factors-bootstrap-process-explained.html
01:33:12 <sgeo> How similar is this to something like SBCL (which I really don't understand)?
01:47:41 <kmc> who here knows or cares about factor
01:47:43 <kmc> besides sgeo
01:47:58 <shachaf> I know someone who knows and cares about Factor.
01:48:12 <kmc> is it sgeo
01:48:29 <sgeo> kmc, I think there are other people here who know Factor. But probably not care.
01:48:30 <kmc> is it jesus
01:49:34 <hagb4rd> don't forget about the ones who care but don't know
01:53:32 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/fluids.jpg
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01:54:22 <kmc> crazy people are crazy
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02:07:48 <zzo38> Are you crazy too?
02:07:48 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
02:07:52 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages?
02:07:54 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 2h 32m 41s ago: my "client" in the case of trying to access the root was just telnet. I also used some of my own code to directly send "\r\n" but got no response. I think it is YOUR
02:08:43 <zzo38> GreyKnight: No I tried the same thing and it works correctly!! I don't know why it doesn't work.
02:09:22 <zzo38> On my computer it works even just telnet or netcat.
02:14:20 <Arc_Koen> Stargate: The Ark of Truth is SO disappointing
02:30:51 <Arc_Koen> but ti just felt like any random season's final
02:31:04 <Arc_Koen> I mean, the original stargate film was very good
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02:31:24 <Arc_Koen> this just felt like a longer stargate episode, and really not one of the best
02:31:53 <Arc_Koen> I love replicators, but they did nothing good with them
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02:32:21 <Arc_Koen> "I'm trying. It has no effect."
02:34:09 <Arc_Koen> and, seriously... http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/stargate/images/7/75/HumanShapeReplicator.jpg << that sucked.
02:34:42 <kmc> zzo38: yeah, a bit
02:34:57 <kmc> i used to be more crazy than i am now
02:35:05 <kmc> i never had a strong opinion about water flouridation, though
02:35:25 <shachaf> People have surprisingly strong opinions about that.
02:57:14 <kmc> wasted a bunch of time because apparently now 'qemu -enable-kvm' doesn't work and i should just run 'kvm'
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03:49:27 <kmc> and 'qemu' is a link to 'qemu-system-i386' even though i am on an AMD64 system
03:50:04 <kmc> but passing it -cpu qemu64 is not an error, it just causes it to hang randomly
03:50:46 <kmc> i should look into that in-kernel-tree kvm tool that isn't qemu
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04:00:13 <zzo38> 5KQN/nprqrRBN/p1pppRBb/5ppp/8/7k/4n1b1/8 If a game of chess eventually result this position, on what squares did captures occur?
04:04:16 <sgeo> There's a thing called Observationally Cooperative Multithreading
04:04:40 <sgeo> Where the programmer programs as though using co-operative threading, but behind the scenes it's doing pre-emptive stuff
04:06:14 <zzo38> Is there a wire to connect RCA to mini phono?
04:10:01 <kmc> sounds a little like STM
04:10:24 <kmc> if every block of code between two preemption points is implicitly a transaction
04:10:37 <shachaf> sgeo: Does Clojure support it?
04:10:41 <shachaf> Or is it more of a Factor thing?
04:11:07 <shachaf> kmc: btw f,g-dialgebroids are the future
04:12:04 <kmc> but are they webscale
04:12:08 <zzo38> What are f,g-dialgebroids?
04:14:03 <sgeo> shachaf, I found it when I googled co-operative multithreading, which is a Factor thing, but ultimately it's neither.
04:14:06 <sgeo> Does that count?
04:14:45 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear GHC has a weird new extension that lets you have type variables with a name longer than one character?
04:14:58 <shachaf> I don't quite understand it. It must be an advanced feature.
04:19:11 <kmc> hey, one-letter type variables are a huge innovation in haskell over miranda
04:20:32 <shachaf> Didn't ML already have type variables by the time Miranda came about?
04:20:55 <kmc> maybe they were patented
04:22:05 <shachaf> zzo38: Dialgebroid f g a b = f a -> g b
04:23:36 <shachaf> zzo38: type Iso s t a b = (Functor f, Functor g) => Dial g f a b -> Dial g f s t
04:23:48 <shachaf> zzo38: type Lens s t a b = (Functor f) => Dial Identity f a b -> Dial Identity f s t
04:24:06 <shachaf> zzo38: type Prism s t a b = (Pointed f, Costrong g) => Dial g f a b -> Dial g f s t
04:24:37 <shachaf> zzo38: type AffineTraversal s t a b = (Pointed f) => Dial Identity f a b -> Dial Identity f s t
04:30:56 <shachaf> kmc: Can you believe Hackage doesn't have a base64 function :: ByteString -> String, or ByteString -> Text?
04:31:03 <shachaf> It has ByteString -> ByteString and String -> String
04:31:49 <shachaf> are you laughing at me again!!
04:36:30 <kmc> shachaf: that's terrible
04:36:48 <kmc> characters and bytes are totally the same thing, am i rite
04:38:01 <copumpkin> the codomain of the function is a little broad for my tastes
04:39:05 <zzo38> Is that for base64?
04:39:42 <shachaf> copumpkin: What can you tell be about dialgebroids?
04:40:03 <shachaf> What should I call that thing?
04:40:35 <shachaf> I was going by analogy with "dialgebra" and "coalgebroid"
04:43:03 <shachaf> Anyway does it have any good properties?
04:44:07 <shachaf> What about Dialgebroid f g a b -> Dialgebroid f g s t?
04:45:08 <copumpkin> clearly you have another functor from some sort of product category
04:45:38 <copumpkin> let F = Uncurry (Dialgebroid f g) in F (a, b) -> F (s, t)
04:47:51 <shachaf> What about the fact that it should be Lens s t i o = forall a b. (i a -> f (i b)) -> o a -> f (o b)
04:48:47 <zzo38> You forgot about f
04:49:11 <shachaf> This generalizes to any LensLike, right?
04:49:24 <shachaf> LensLike f s t i o = forall a b. (i a -> f (i b)) -> o a -> f (o b)
04:49:42 <shachaf> DiLensLike g f s t i o = forall a b. (g (i a) -> f (i b)) -> g (o a) -> f (o b)
04:49:54 <kmc> shachaf: now that SHA-1 is deprecated for new uses, I have finally trained myself to type "sha1sum" instead of "md5sum"
04:50:15 <shachaf> kmc: You're supposed to use what, SHA-2 and/or SHA-3 now?
04:50:37 <zzo38> Do you know if the monad transformer laws imply t Finalize = Finalize and comonad transformer laws imply t Initialize = Initialize ?
04:50:42 <kmc> you should use that implementation made by stoned people who got thrown out of noisebridge
04:50:52 <zzo38> They are true for all examples I have tried, at least.
04:51:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Finalize = Proxy, Initialize = Identity?
04:51:46 <zzo38> shachaf: No! data Finalize x = Finalize; data Initialize x;
04:54:30 <shachaf> Right, Identity doesn't make sense. :-)
04:55:09 <zzo38> Why did you think it is Identity?
04:55:29 <shachaf> I thought "what's the other really simple data type other than proxy?"
04:55:58 <zzo38> O, OK, that is why you thought.
04:57:35 <zzo38> I use the names Finalize and Initialize because in any category having final/initial objects, Finalize is the endofunctor which all objects into the final object, and Initialize is endofunctor of all objects into the initial object. In all such categories where they exist, Finalize is a monad and Initialize is a comonad. This is not difficult to prove.
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05:27:34 <shachaf> zzo38: But they're also initial and final objects themselves, aren't they?
05:28:51 <shachaf> Oh, maybe this is what confused me:
05:28:52 <shachaf> haskell/08.01.22:23:14:47 <sorear> there exists a category of monads. Null is the terminal monad, Identity is the initial monad
05:29:32 <shachaf> But of course your Initialize isn't a monad at all.
05:57:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Initialize is a comonad. And that is not what I meant at all; I didn't mean the category of monads. I meant endofunctors on some arbitrary category which has initial and final objects.
05:58:11 <zzo38> They are not initial and final objects, or any objects; monads are functors not objects.
06:02:07 <zzo38> Maybe what sorear wrote is true (I don't know), but it is different to what I am doing.
06:05:11 <zzo38> But what I noticed is that for example, Finalize = StateT x Finalize = ReaderT x Finalize = MaybeT Finalize = Codensity Finalize and so on, and the similar with comonad transformers with Initialize.
06:05:37 <zzo38> Do you know if such a thing must always be true due to the mathematical laws?
06:05:53 <zzo38> Or else, is there a counterexample?
06:05:54 <shachaf> Are there many laws about monad transformers?
06:06:25 <zzo38> Well, it must be homomorphic, as any (anything) transformer must be, I think.
06:08:09 <zzo38> Free Finalize = Maybe but Free is not really a monad transformer anyways (although it is a valid backward monad transformer), even though there is a instance.
06:08:19 <zzo38> You can easily check that it does not satisfy the laws.
06:09:43 <zzo38> Even ignoring the laws for now, do you know of any counterexample? I don't think there is one, but tell me anyways in case.
06:11:31 <shachaf> Well, what I mean might be "what do monad transformers have in common?".
06:12:04 <shachaf> For example, is there always a function runMonadT :: ... -> T ... -> m ...?
06:16:09 <zzo38> What are these ... going to be anyways?
06:16:54 <shachaf> I guess the second ... is "m a"
06:16:56 <zzo38> If ... can be anything arbitrary and different in each of three places, then of course there can be.
06:17:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Anyway, I was asking *you*!
06:18:01 <zzo38> But that is completely useless. The first ... is zero and then you will always have such a function if that is how it works. Such thing about always having such function, seem not meaningful to say so.
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06:23:39 <zzo38> Even if making certain other assumptions about runMonadT, it still won't always work since you can make FinalizeT (still following lift . return = return and so on) in which the m at the end is unable to retain what you put into it, if that is one kind of assumption you intended to make.
06:29:38 <kmc> apparently MySQL's built in password hashing is... double unsalted SHA-1? http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/password-hashing.html
06:30:29 <zzo38> You really should put salt on it; unsalted is not so secure, due to rainbow tables and other things.
06:30:51 <kmc> (not clear if this is true after 5.1; I can't find documentation, and only sparse documentation for 5.1 even)
06:30:58 <kmc> MySQL truly is the PHP of databases
06:31:30 <zzo38> I have used SQLite, in C programming; not MySQL.
06:31:34 <kmc> in fact we used it at work for PHPish reasons
06:31:45 <kmc> "it's very popular, if we run into problems we can hire someone to fix them"
06:31:51 <kmc> over my objections
06:32:00 <Bike> if it's your job, aren't you the one hired to fix problems
06:32:10 <shachaf> kmc is hired to create problems
06:32:21 <Bike> or are the problems you're hired for specifically "shutting up the boss"
06:32:24 <kmc> 3.5 months later we have migrated to PostgreSQL at considerable difficulty
06:32:27 <shachaf> Like "hey why are you using php??"
06:32:36 <shachaf> kmc: Was it because MySQL is terrible?
06:32:47 <kmc> it screwed us over in several ways
06:32:54 <kmc> as i predicted
06:33:15 <kmc> "told you so" isn't so great in a business context so I am venting here instead
06:33:21 <Bike> truly, you are the cassandra of modern programming business environments
06:33:44 <kmc> cassandra is a database too!
06:33:51 <kmc> Alias is a *show* about a spy!
06:34:06 <Bike> isn't that show several years old
06:34:16 <Bike> also what are you talking about, i meant the prophetess
06:34:31 <kmc> http://cassandra.apache.org/
06:34:40 <shachaf> Apparently someone I worked with at rethinkdb is now working on MySQL code at Google.
06:34:52 <kmc> "Cassandra is a highly scalable, eventually consistent, distributed, structured key-value store. "
06:34:54 <Bike> You're in Control
06:35:08 <lambdabot> rwbarton says: edwardk now has Lens under Control
06:38:59 <kmc> why double
06:40:05 <Bike> It's harder to unhash twice, of course!
06:42:04 <shachaf> kmc: It would be too fast otherwise...
06:46:37 <ion> bike: Especially if the result of one of the unhashes falls into a fully known set of bytestrings.
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06:53:26 <kmc> "The [Court of Chivalry] was last convened in 1954 for Manchester Corporation v Manchester Palace of Varieties Ltd... The opening part of the judgement involved an analysis leading to the determination that the Court of Chivalry still existed."
06:55:38 <Bike> Wow, for misuse of heraldry? That's pretty obscure indeed.
06:57:40 <Bike> So who won the case?
06:57:40 <kmc> it's amusing that the manchester government went after them for misuse of heraldry and not, like, trademark violation
06:58:06 <Bike> Are coats of arms actually trademarked?
06:59:01 <Bike> I figured you were just understood to have one... and then if someone disagrees you do something really old-fashioned to fix it, like challenge them to a duel, or invoke something called the "court of chivalry".
06:59:38 <kmc> a duel would have been good here
06:59:47 <kmc> a duel between the mayor of manchester and some theater owner
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07:01:33 <Bike> a duel between the town as a whole and the theater as a whole. just all out wr (with flintlocks)
07:27:53 <zzo38> What is portable way of load/save floating points in files, using a C code?
07:33:27 <kmc> #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error Here's a nickel, kid. Buy a real computer. #endif
07:33:54 <zzo38> I don't want to do it that way, though.
07:34:16 <kmc> yeah, the unbalanced single quote might upset the preprocessor
07:34:30 <coppro> `addquote < zzo38> What is portable way of load/save floating points in files, using a C code? < kmc> #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error Here's a nickel, kid. Buy a real computer. #endif
07:34:37 <HackEgo> 872) < zzo38> What is portable way of load/save floating points in files, using a C code? < kmc> #ifndef __STDC_IEC_559__ #error Here's a nickel, kid. Buy a real computer. #endif
07:36:30 <zzo38> I wonder if the printf "%A" specifier would be the best way, if there isn't another way?
07:36:48 <kmc> if there isn't another way, then the only way must be the best way
07:37:04 <Jafet> No, the only way is the worst way
07:37:09 <shachaf> Which way would be the best way if there's no way?
07:37:21 <zzo38> Jafet: That too, I suppose.
07:38:55 <kmc> "%A" does seem reasonable, yes
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07:41:00 <kmc> if you wanted to roll your own representation you could use frexp and ldexp
07:41:39 <GreyKnight> zzo38: could you see my requests coming in earlier?
07:42:36 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Yes. I don't know why your computer doesn't work; I try and it work OK. But use the selector named "root" if it is necessary; I believe all internal links use that to access the root, I think so.
07:42:57 <zzo38> Even with netcat and telnet, I can use the empty selector string which works.
07:43:26 <GreyKnight> I am wondering if something here was buffering the request. Will experiment
07:44:31 <Bike> huh, frexp returns a float for the significand...
07:45:26 <Bike> also, c99 only has it for doubles? what if you want to decode/encode singles?
07:45:39 <GreyKnight> zzo38: Is there a comprehensive list of type codes anywhere? You used some I've not seen elsewhere, such as p and @ (or is it @B? Is @ a standard for multicharacter codes?)
07:45:47 <kmc> it doesn't have frexpf?
07:46:13 <Bike> oh, yes it does, it just wasn't on the reference i googled up
07:46:13 <kmc> and frexpl for long doubles
07:46:14 <GreyKnight> I can see their meaning from context but would like a list to refer to
07:46:23 <kmc> gotta sleep, ttyl all
07:46:29 <Fiora> kmc: libavutil/intfloat_readwrite.c seems to have a portable float/double read/write thing
07:46:43 <Fiora> it contains lovely code like this
07:46:44 <Fiora> return ldexp(((v&((1LL<<52)-1)) + (1LL<<52)) * (v>>63|1), (v>>52&0x7FF)-1075);
07:46:55 <Bike> what the christ.
07:47:04 <Fiora> double av_int2dbl(int64_t v){
07:47:04 <Fiora> if((uint64_t)v+v > 0xFFEULL<<52)
07:47:05 <Fiora> return ldexp(((v&((1LL<<52)-1)) + (1LL<<52)) * (v>>63|1), (v>>52&0x7FF)-1075);
07:47:34 <Fiora> it converts an integer (which represents a double) to an actual double, I /think/
07:47:37 <zzo38> GreyKnight: No, I have defined @ for multicharacter codes. However I have decided not to use it anymore. However, p is commonly used for PNG files.
07:47:43 <Bike> well there's your answer zzo38. use %a instead
07:48:03 <zzo38> Bike: OK, I can use %a perhaps.
07:48:24 <Bike> hm, you may have inspired me to look up that paper on reading and writing text representations of floats
07:48:35 * Fiora has succeeded for the day: making Bike say "what the christ"
07:48:38 <GreyKnight> zzo38: okay but has anyone documented such "commonly used" codes anywhere? :-P
07:49:11 <Bike> I say "what the christ" every six seconds or so as a keepalive signal.
07:49:53 <GreyKnight> Also the U should be allowed in any position, so that you can have constants like 0xFUEL
07:50:55 <zzo38> GreyKnight: The RFC includes most codes, although here are most of the important ones: 0 = plain text, 1 = menu, 3 = error message, 5 = ZIP, 7 = search, 9 = binary, i = informational text (no link), I = picture file, p = PNG (sometimes used; perhaps I should be used instead since the header tells).
07:51:27 <zzo38> Supporting only 0 1 7 i is sufficient.
07:51:29 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I found some lists but none had p. I don't know if there may be more obscure ones I am missing
07:52:05 <GreyKnight> Oh well I will go ahead with this and see if anyone complains!
07:53:06 <zzo38> I think you can ignore p since it isn't important; I will change them to I since that matches the standard better. There is also h used for HTML; again I suggest not using it in general, like not using p in general. I propose d for printable documents (DVI, PostScript, PDF), perhaps.
07:53:39 <GreyKnight> I already found a reference that P is commonly used for the latter
07:54:10 <GreyKnight> And I am writing code for clients so it's not up to me what to publish ;-)
07:54:37 <zzo38> I have found somewhere where d is used; but perhaps P should be used instead it is better idea.
07:55:15 <zzo38> I will correct my programs to match all of those (currently I use neither d nor P for anything, however)
07:55:27 <GreyKnight> Do you have a link to a person who uses d
07:55:47 <zzo38> No, but I found it in an old version of some gopher client somewhere.
07:55:50 <zzo38> I suggest ignoring it.
07:56:58 <zzo38> I suggest not using any types other than the RFC if you are able to do without those types. In addition, text should be used if possible, and ASCII encoding should be used if possible.
07:56:59 <GreyKnight> Oh there's an idea, if you want multicharacter codes you can start with '(', and end with a ')'.
07:57:38 <zzo38> GreyKnight: That is an idea. However, I suggest not using multicharacter codes anymore; once I used @ for just some experimental purposes which I suggest not using anymore except for experimental purposes though.
07:57:45 <zzo38> Same with () you can use for experimental purposes.
07:59:35 <GreyKnight> It was just a suggestion: also recall I am mostly writing for clients so the module should support even non-RFC types and let the client implementation decide whether it wants to do anything with them or not
08:01:18 <zzo38> That is OK if you want to support () for multicharacter types in your client codes (since parentheses are not used otherwise for types); however I suggest not using them in servers except for experimental purposes. (Same with the @B it was an experimental purpose and is not intended to be supported.)
08:01:19 <GreyKnight> Oh I need to look up more about how you send query text to a search
08:01:31 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Append a tab and the query string.
08:01:39 <zzo38> The result will be of type 1.
08:03:17 <GreyKnight> (I doubt I will bother with multicharacter types, it just struck me as a tidy way to do it if someone felt the need)
08:04:04 <zzo38> There is no need to implement multicharacter types.
08:04:49 <GreyKnight> Presumably you mean the resultS will be of type 1? Typically search returns a set of results
08:05:49 <zzo38> I mean that a type 7 request is actually a request for a type 1 resource, except that there is a query string.
08:06:26 <zzo38> It isn't even necessarily a search; it is just a request with a user-specified query string.
08:06:29 <GreyKnight> Hm I will read up on it and experiment with VERONICA
08:07:25 <zzo38> So in other words, to process a type 7 resource: Ask the user for a query string. Append a tab and the query string to the selector string. Now treat it as a type 1 request.
08:08:37 <GreyKnight> So similar to an HTTP GET query except we use \t instead of ? :-)
08:08:44 <GreyKnight> (And don't have formal names unless you implement them)
08:09:05 <zzo38> Kind of, except the query string is not encoded in any way.
08:09:12 <zzo38> And there are no fields.
08:10:21 <GreyKnight> Implementing gopher is a piece of cake, everybody should do it as a programming exercise
08:10:42 <GreyKnight> sgeo can make a Factor implementation :-)
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08:45:19 <zzo38> Using %la printf format doesn't work in my computer.
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08:46:49 <zzo38> O no wait %la is not right.
08:47:40 <zzo38> But scanf apparently uses %la
08:48:28 <fizzie> scanf can use the %La too.
08:48:54 <fizzie> For long double; which is what printf uses for it, I mean.
08:49:25 <zzo38> Still I tried %a and that doesn't work either; the output is just "a"
08:50:07 <zzo38> Does Windows not support it?
08:50:28 <fizzie> %a is one of the floating conversions; they don't need length modifiers for double because of argument promotions.
08:50:38 <fizzie> And it wouldn't surprise me if Windows did not support it.
08:50:51 <fizzie> Since it's an introduced-in-C99 thing.
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08:52:00 <fizzie> %a when printing does doubles too.
08:52:26 <fizzie> No, because you can't pass floats to printf.
08:52:32 <fizzie> Due to the aforementioned argument promotions.
08:52:36 <fizzie> "l (ell) -- or has no effect on a following a, A, e, E, f, F, g, or G conversion specifier."
08:54:12 <fizzie> "-- the integer promotions are performed on each argument, and arguments that have type float are promoted to double. These are called the default argument promotions. -- The ellipsis notation in a function prototype declarator causes argument type conversion to stop after the last declared parameter. The default argument promotions are performed on trailing arguments."
08:54:41 <fizzie> For scanf, since you pass pointers, there is a difference between %a and %la.
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10:42:03 <shachaf> you have upset the order of things
10:44:20 <Fiora> she is an important character taking part in this update!
11:20:01 <FireFly> Who stole letters from the topic?
11:21:36 <Jafet> heitailhfoeramasgly
11:26:37 <Jafet> I hope calliope isn't full of hot air.
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12:38:53 <shachaf> If you take this Haskell class, you will learn about
12:38:54 <shachaf> Partial functions (currying)
12:39:16 <shachaf> And a bunch about Yesod, I guess?
12:39:29 <Jafet> But no monads? I want to learn monads.
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12:40:43 <shachaf> The Two Day Introduction to Programming in Haskell is targeted to developers and provides the basic language syntax as well as the abstract type system, data types, basic and higher order functions, and monad classes.
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12:40:56 <shachaf> I guess it provides monad classes.
12:41:02 <shachaf> I'm not sure which sense of the word "class" they mean.
12:41:28 <Jafet> It's probably a type of type class class.
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12:46:16 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
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12:47:48 <lambdabot> dons says: The alien rulers of the galaxy must surely use a statically typed language with type inference
12:48:04 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
12:48:10 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
12:48:25 <lambdabot> roconnor says: gez, you write one paper explaining how a lens is really a higher order monoidal natural transformation, and suddenly everyone thinks you are an expert on lenses.
12:50:15 <lambdabot> Jafet says: caleskell is the standard golf course.
12:50:23 <lambdabot> Jafet says: Haskell is an abstract research language used only in academia, education, banking, stock trading, circuit design, embedded systems, cryptography, operating systems research, bioinformatic
12:50:26 <lambdabot> Jafet says: <gwern> closures are a poor man's object <ddarius> objects are a poor man's closure <Berengal> objects are a rich man's structs <Jafet> Poor programmers should start unions
12:50:58 <lambdabot> Jafet says: <dylukes> come on matlab, I've been waiting for this integral for two minutes now. <Jafet> Integration in south africa took several years.
12:51:05 <lambdabot> Jafet says: Also, english ~= transmogrify (foldr union German $ map takeRandomStuffFrom [Abyssinia..Zulu])
12:51:47 <GreyKnight> Always knew Haskell was designed for space aliens
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13:26:49 <ais523> <spambot> - This mail is in HTML. Some elements may be ommited in plain text. -
13:27:02 <ais523> I thought those HTML reminder lines were autogenerated
13:27:06 <ais523> so how can they have misspellings in?
13:27:24 <ais523> and what's the chance of someone who doesn't have HTML mail on by default (and thus is probably quite internet-savvy) turning it on in order to read spam?
13:27:47 <ais523> Also The Entire Message Of The Body Was Written In Initcaps
13:28:17 <AnotherTest> All and backs can, given her fair as you are go.
13:32:03 <ais523> meanwhile, HTML5 moves from alpha into beta
13:36:13 <c00kiemon5ter> meanwhile @ Brighton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCgV-FnEcGQ
13:39:14 <AnotherTest> unfortunately the video was playing extremely slowly, because I don't have flash installed (for some unknown reason) and I had to use HTML 5
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13:40:38 <AnotherTest> Also, just yesterday, someone told me that she was going to prepare for the end of the world?
13:41:08 <AnotherTest> (not exactly sure how you would do that though)
13:41:26 <AnotherTest> I guess you could try to collect some food or something
13:42:03 <AnotherTest> although if the earth were to be sucked up by a black hole, I doubt that would really help a lot
13:43:48 <ais523> AnotherTest: all the Mayan previous-ends-of-worlds were natural disasters which most people transformed into animals to avoid
13:43:56 <ais523> and a few survived via really mundane means
13:44:51 <ais523> if this one follows the same pattern, I guess the conclusion is that you have to go find some sort of mundane shelter that can protect you from some disaster that could also be fixed via transforming into some sort of animal that doesn't exist yet
13:46:27 <AnotherTest> delphi: Did mark mayor is, may danger much is here at hand.
13:47:13 <AnotherTest> Yes, I know, although the answer does not come from a human
13:47:50 <AnotherTest> delphi: Heaven we and you, among the hopeful lady of my earth but woo her gentle.
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13:51:02 <delphi> Should find and is, received of drink and thralls of drink and thralls.
13:51:14 -!- delphi has changed nick to Guest29523.
13:51:32 <AnotherTest> it appears delphi is a registered nickname
13:53:25 <Guest29523> Trembling flesh , but if thou embowel me to-day though.
13:54:11 <AnotherTest> (there should have been one before the comma)
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14:18:35 <AnotherTest> delphi: are you still functioning within established parameters?
14:18:36 <Guest29523> Whom you if you, answer nay wherefore should they since that.
14:24:28 <AnotherTest> What's a good university for computer science?
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14:48:55 <Jafet> Bonnieshire and Strathclyde
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16:33:59 <elliott> 01:13:53: <c00kiemon5ter> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-3.html this :)
16:34:04 <elliott> pales in comparison to http://www.scsh.net/docu/html/man.html
16:34:31 <elliott> opinions about the start of books about scheme
16:36:10 <monqy> those are some pretty good acknowledgements elliott
16:38:03 <GreyKnight> Nowadays it'd be "downloading videos off of facebook" I guess
16:38:45 <monqy> "A lot of people have been kinda worried about me ever since I published the scsh manual back in 1993, but I'm feeling a lot better, really."
16:39:01 <monqy> i wonder how that went down
16:40:48 <monqy> the "a lot better" links to http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/institutionalized.html
16:44:00 <monqy> http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/advisor-stmt-original.txt
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17:16:06 <elliott> @tell oerjan imo you should recommend reflection http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15246s/pain_point_dependency_injection_in_haskell_via/
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17:21:32 <fizzie> Haskell, the language of optics.
17:21:49 <monqy> haskell library where you have to push the reflective boxes so the laser goes into the sensor
17:25:14 <fizzie> Those are some good names.
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17:34:32 <GreyKnight> I will pay ten Internets if somebody makes this, even just a proof-of-concept level
17:35:25 <Guest29523> On you love is, never link'd to the cause of our.
17:36:13 <AnotherTest> GreyKnight: I will learn haskell if you make me 10 internets
17:41:51 <GreyKnight> An Internet is worth you love, but isn't linked to the price of causes
17:42:50 <AnotherTest> delphi: What is the real value of an internet?
17:42:51 <Guest29523> Thee in honour is, the subject of my story i will.
17:43:16 <Guest29523> On you love is, never link'd to the deserver till his.
17:43:55 <AnotherTest> delphi: You have betrayed me, you must be more clear!
17:43:55 <Guest29523> Assured destruction fathers have, be rare indeed whom their o'er-cloyed country.
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18:31:54 <HackEgo> tappajuttansa ajaisimpanee sattelmiedostuville vallemastavillä jouksensä kehokeilevin hirveämme hurroksuvuudeksilla aamallassansa heilevissa
18:33:04 <HackEgo> fenowałabyście kubiankowane nieprzywał
18:35:10 <GreyKnight> Just create a random pot pourri of the other languages
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18:36:18 <HackEgo> kynitumillasi hosummaksemmälttu palvomiasi merisekoiltänsä muttamme ansaanne hailevamme rivälitavimme neliopilkoilut aamaltanne
18:36:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/words: a /usr/bin/perl script text executable
18:37:23 <HackEgo> coa sij aucfd gewalb raig overton craunc dai honal antain
18:37:52 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:37:58 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 21m 51s ago: imo you should recommend reflection http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/15246s/pain_point_dependency_injection_in_haskell_via/
18:38:25 <fizzie> There are multiple English options.
18:38:26 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
18:38:33 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
18:38:45 <fizzie> eng-1M, eng-all, eng-fiction, eng-gb, eng-us.
18:38:59 <HackEgo> arj stranski prf snowl ahotoz indetaliza bearo cprofc thoulsing eesurran
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18:39:25 <fizzie> The Arj-Stranski theorem.
18:39:33 <Lumpio-> I should compare those against a dictionary and highlight the ones that are real words
18:39:42 <Lumpio-> ...or alternatively highlight the ones that aren't
18:40:02 <olsner> Thoulsing is quite namey as well
18:40:28 <quintopia> have you ever seen a snowl take wing from a spruce on christmas day in the morning?
18:40:36 <oerjan> elliott: i am over quota on people telling me what to do today, sorry
18:40:38 <fizzie> Incidentally, you can have it mix.
18:40:46 <fizzie> `words --finnish --eng-us 10
18:40:49 <HackEgo> sanne yleijtherkkea näköisi vallurisen agrat hurrn tig kutsunt oscopedagric promal
18:40:52 <Lumpio-> oerjan: I think you should take more advice from people.
18:40:55 <elliott> oerjan: that was a recommendation!
18:41:29 * oerjan swats Lumpio- -----###
18:42:41 <oerjan> elliott: the word "should" betrays you
18:42:43 <elliott> oerjan: part of your swatter's handle detached from it and caught on Lumpio. hth.
18:43:37 -!- GreyKnight has changed nick to GreyKnight-.
18:44:12 <quintopia> first there is a hyphen at the end, and then it starts eating the last w-
18:44:33 <Lumpio-> I don't even remember what the last four letters of nick used to be
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18:46:23 <qui-> it's all over. we-
18:46:45 <qui-> it flows through me!
18:46:52 <qui-> the power of the exclamation point!
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18:47:10 -!- qui- has changed nick to quintopia.
18:47:23 <GreyKnight-> monqy uses question mark! It's super-effective!
18:47:31 <olsner> ... what are you doing?
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18:48:33 <GreyKnight> olsner: *I'm* being sleep-deprived. I don't know what everyone else's excuse is.
18:48:40 * oerjan uses the trick of trapping it with #'s
18:48:59 <olsner> was that supposed to be a pumpkin trap?
18:49:27 <oerjan> olsner isn't very observant.
18:50:12 <boily> ah, friday's weirdness has come early this week. must be a holiday special!
18:50:50 <oerjan> olsner: not at all, we need people like you to give us new jokes about swedes
18:52:06 <boily> GreyKnight: weirdness for all, especially the poor, starving children who shiver in the cold and stuff like that?
18:53:11 <GreyKnight> boily: yes, oerjan was visited by the ghost of weirdness past
18:55:08 <GreyKnight> The nice thing about being a grown-up is that you can decide that any day is cake day
18:55:21 <oerjan> in fact i had _two_ cakes today!
18:55:35 <oerjan> carrot cake, and a brownie
18:56:25 <Arc_Koen> I think the first desert I eat everytime I go to london has gotta be an organic carrot cake
18:56:52 <Arc_Koen> for someone who lives in france it has something special
18:57:05 <Arc_Koen> just saying "I just had an organic carrot cake"
18:57:15 <olsner> you... "think"? you've been eating the same dessert every time but don't know what it is?
18:57:23 <oerjan> so much better than the plastic ones
18:57:31 <GreyKnight> Eating desert sounds tasty. Should keep you regular.
18:57:34 <olsner> I like the robotic carrot cakes
18:58:02 <kmc> i think sand will actually do a poor job of absorbing water inside the large intestine
18:59:02 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i think sand will actually do a poor job of absorbing water inside the large intestine
18:59:06 <HackEgo> 873) <kmc> i think sand will actually do a poor job of absorbing water inside the large intestine
18:59:22 <GreyKnight> We should do an experiment to find out. *looks sideways at shachaf*
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19:01:52 <kmc> vermiculite on the other hand
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19:03:54 <oerjan> am i evil for wanting to turn that into a pun on the negev desert
19:05:28 <fizzie> Bleh it's so http://outside.aalto.fi/img/lite.day.png dark these days.
19:05:33 <fizzie> (But I do like the graph.)
19:07:05 <kmc> i feel the same way, and you're about 18° north of me :/
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19:07:51 <kmc> also cold :(
19:07:53 <AnotherTest> elliott: Thanks for the out_of_range exception :(
19:07:57 <kmc> boston hasn't had much of a winter so far
19:08:54 <AnotherTest> You need to say at least 2 words or it crashes
19:09:17 <kmc> completely dark by 16:00 is depressing
19:09:26 <kmc> here sunset is around 16:00 but of course there is some light after
19:09:53 <kmc> it's also amusing that the sensor registers actually 0 when the sun is not up... I guess the sun is much much brighter than other sources of light :3
19:11:00 <olsner> I guess the street lights up there aren't quite powerful enough to penetrate the deep dark of winter
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19:12:44 <kmc> trying to understand lux
19:13:04 <fizzie> There's actually a reasonable amount of light pollution here, and perceptually it's very light out sometimes, but I suppose that's all just due to the huge dynamic range of people eyes.
19:13:17 <kmc> it is weighted by visual response at different wavelengths, but is still linear in power at a given wavelength
19:13:19 <fizzie> Also, now that the snow is out there, it's not quite so dark when it's dark.
19:13:55 <olsner> tried searching for "light" on the swedish wheather institute's site ... first hit is "Our brightest time is now"
19:14:45 <kmc> i expect perceived brightness is logarithmic in power per unit area
19:14:58 <kmc> most perceptual things are logarithmic
19:15:42 <olsner> perceived brightness changes depending on how dark-adapted your eyes are though
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19:18:37 <fizzie> Most perceptual things have a power law, more like, isn't it? Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevens'_power_law
19:19:06 <kmc> i stand corrected
19:19:27 <fizzie> Okay, the Weber-Fechner law it references is logarithmic.
19:19:47 <elliott> fibonacci logarithms of nature
19:20:09 * kmc hands elliott the bong
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19:22:15 <oerjan> zzo38: for t Finalize = Finalize, i think x = join (lift (return x)) = join (lift Finalize) = join (lift (return Finalize)) = Finalize
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19:23:17 <oerjan> assuming join (lift (return x)) = x follows from monad transformer laws, which i think it ought to
19:23:59 <elliott> lift (m >>= f) = lift m >>= (lift . f)
19:24:07 <elliott> and join . return = id is a monad law
19:24:15 <oerjan> ok lift . return = return is what gives that
19:27:53 <zzo38> Yes, that is understand.
19:28:12 <GreyKnight> zzo38: convince everyone to make a gopher client in the language of their choice
19:29:58 <quintopia> zzo38 doesn't necessarily believe gopher is right for everyone
19:30:15 <AnotherTest> Isn't it stupid that I have to define my operator!= as !operator== as an actual function in C++? They should have a shorthand.
19:30:32 <GreyKnight> But implementing a client is a fun experience even if you don't use it!
19:31:22 <GreyKnight> quintopia, at least 350 times more fun than trying to implement HTTP
19:31:32 <lambdabot> *** "gopher" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:31:32 <lambdabot> n 1: a zealously energetic person (especially a salesman) [syn:
19:31:32 <lambdabot> 2: a native or resident of Minnesota [syn: {Minnesotan},
19:31:52 <elliott> oerjan: if a functor is both Pointed and Applicative, can you prove that point = pure
19:32:02 <AnotherTest> Well, you can't be a ware of what every protocol is exactly
19:32:31 <AnotherTest> What exactly is the advantage of this over HTTP?
19:32:39 <GreyKnight> Gopher is a hyperprotocol that came just before HTTP. It was a lot simpler, hence easy to implement
19:32:41 <oerjan> elliott: what are the laws for Pointed?
19:33:14 <AnotherTest> GreyKnight: so why would you use it nowadays?
19:33:31 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Pointed'
19:33:47 <oerjan> ok, what _is_ Pointed, i've never used it.
19:33:50 <GreyKnight> Perhaps for historical interest, or perhaps you like lightweightness? It is up to you
19:34:11 <elliott> oerjan: class Pointed f where point :: a -> f a
19:34:17 <elliott> oerjan: there is a law in combination with fmap, but it is a free theorem
19:34:19 <GreyKnight> Perhaps you just want to see what's behind http://zzo38computer.org/ :-)
19:34:40 <elliott> oerjan: (fmap f . point = point . f)
19:34:42 <AnotherTest> GreyKnight: But almost no servers will support SSL!
19:35:07 <GreyKnight> Don't check your bank account over gopher then? Shrug!
19:35:32 <GreyKnight> zzo38: hey, is there a secure gopher? Tell us!
19:36:18 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think there's anything preventing a Functor from having two different Pointed instances
19:36:40 <elliott> yeah, I am just wondering if the Applicative laws somehow restrict it, but I guess they couldn't really
19:37:38 <oerjan> no, i think if you take a Free monad based on a Functor with two constants, then those constants will both be points in the monad.
19:37:39 <zzo38> GreyKnight: You can use gopher over SSH if you want it secure.
19:37:54 <zzo38> However, if you want bank account best is probably SSH anyways.
19:38:09 <oerjan> or actually, one constant, since pure/return of a free monad doesn't come from the constant anyway
19:38:22 <fizzie> Are there many banks that allow for doing online banking over SSH?
19:38:43 <oerjan> i'm confused, scratch that
19:39:19 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know, but they probably ought to be.
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19:41:13 <oerjan> actually don't scratch that anyway. i believe point = const Nothing is a perfectly correct instance, no?
19:41:31 <oerjan> there's nothing demanding it uses its input value
19:43:48 <oerjan> although even so: i think point x = writer (x, "Hi mom!") is also one
19:48:10 <zzo38> oerjan: O, maybe you can figure out, how many points there are of some functor. Identity functor has only one, I guess?
19:51:49 <oerjan> seems that would be another free theorem
19:52:51 <oerjan> f . runIdentity . point = runIdentity . point . f
19:53:45 <oerjan> or well, it essentially has type a -> a
19:53:47 <elliott> I don't see how that's quite free
19:53:54 <elliott> runIdentity :: Identity a -> a
19:53:57 <elliott> but you have Writer w a -> a too etc.
19:54:21 <oerjan> runIdentity . point :: a -> a
19:55:06 <oerjan> so runIdentity . point = id
19:55:49 <oerjan> g = const x gives f x = x
19:57:56 <oerjan> makePoint :: Functor f => f () -> x -> f x; makePoint template x = x <$ template
20:00:31 <oerjan> makePoint t (f x) = f x <$ t = fmap f (x <$ t) = fmap f (makePoint t x)
20:01:18 <oerjan> makePoint t () = () <$ t = t, well ignoring bottom that ought to be true
20:01:36 <oerjan> zzo38: i think there's essentially one point for each value of type f ()
20:02:38 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I think so.
20:03:03 <zzo38> One for each f () seems correct to me, too.
20:03:06 <oerjan> x <$ point () = fmap (const x) (point ()) = point (const x ()) = point x so all points are of this form
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21:54:45 <sgeo> And... I am done with school
21:56:02 <Arc_Koen> and tomorrow, your life as a worker shall begin!
21:56:58 <Taneb> Bike, how goes the Eodermdrone interpreter?
21:57:49 <Bike> it doesn't. so there
21:58:33 <Bike> i think maybe i'll just read up on kolmogorov-uspenski machines and go from there, later
21:58:44 <oerjan> they always get stuck on the edge cases
21:58:46 <Bike> assuming i can find english sources and/or learn russian
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22:09:58 <Taneb> Just finished off my Fueue interpreter
22:10:04 <Taneb> It goes through -Wall and hlint
22:10:37 <Taneb> And appears to run the Thue-Morse program correctly
22:13:52 <Arc_Koen> now try running the truth machine
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22:17:12 <oerjan> that would sadly need to be written first
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22:30:39 <elliott> 03:48:22 -!- LittleFoot [~LittleFoo@cpe-50-113-114-54.san.res.rr.com] has joined #life
22:30:42 <elliott> 03:48:26 -!- LittleFoot [~LittleFoo@cpe-50-113-114-54.san.res.rr.com] has left #life []
22:30:45 <elliott> Day changed to 18 Dec 2012
22:30:48 <elliott> 22:30:11 -!- GlidingSpider [~GlidingSp@96-29-246-27.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #life
22:30:51 <elliott> 22:30:16 <GlidingSpider> hello
22:30:58 <elliott> apparently i've been in #life for days
22:31:31 <elliott> 22:30:37 <GlidingSpider> are you human
22:31:31 <elliott> 22:31:13 <GlidingSpider> what web browser do you use
22:37:09 <fizzie> That's progress, and that's moving forward.
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23:07:05 <Gregor> I ordered something from China.
23:07:10 <Gregor> And its tracking status is "Acceptance"
23:07:22 <Gregor> I'm glad that Chinese-made goods go through the stages of grief BEFORE being shipped.
23:16:05 <kmc> "bargaining" and "anger" are common parts of buying things online
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00:32:49 <shachaf> kmc: Any idea how this works in C#? http://ideone.com/wpj2Tl
00:32:58 <shachaf> It's like import "wrapper" but with more magic.
00:34:44 <kmc> doesn't seem much more magical
00:35:34 <kmc> "delegate" declares like a typedef for a function type or some such
00:35:47 <kmc> and so it knows that the foreign-imported function has a parameter of function type
00:35:53 <shachaf> But that's a closure being used as a regular function.
00:36:06 <kmc> sure, but ghc does that too
00:36:19 <shachaf> Well, you need to free a GHC "wrapper" explicitly.
00:36:35 <kmc> well, maybe these are only good for downward closure
00:36:45 <kmc> i don't know about that aspect, sorry
00:37:58 <shachaf> Also it looks like it converts delegates to function pointers implicitly, though I guess that's a different variety of magic.
00:38:21 <kmc> well at the import layer it does
00:38:34 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/873992/c-sharp-providing-c-callbacks-access-violation-in-threadex-c-in-the-endthrea
00:38:43 <kmc> "You must prevent the delegate from being collected by the managed code, using GCHandle.Alloc"
00:39:10 <shachaf> So this code is wrong-ish, though maybe it doesn't matter in this case.
00:39:36 <shachaf> I guess generating executable code at runtime is much less strange when you have a JIT anyway.
00:40:03 <kmc> whether it's wrong depends on whether EnumWindows guarantees not to call your callback function after EnumWindows returns
00:40:08 <kmc> which seems pretty safe
00:40:39 <kmc> but (like so much of interfacing with C) it is a documentable but unchecked assumption
00:41:23 <shachaf> Well, the point of this code was to demonstrate that .NET can do this magically.
00:41:33 <shachaf> But it's not quite as magic as I thought.
00:42:14 <kmc> here's an example in Managed C++: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/367eeye0(v=vs.80).aspx
00:42:47 <elliott> it's kind of amazing C still doesn't have closures
00:43:01 <elliott> it's not like it's really technically difficult to implement explicit closures
00:43:10 <elliott> you don't even need lambda syntax for them to be useful
00:43:54 <monqy> lots of things about C are amazing
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00:44:41 <monqy> amazing thing about C: people use CPP???? people use #include??????????????????
00:45:08 <shachaf> So when you pass a delegate to a C function, it generates code that calls it and that code isn't GCed until the delegate is, I suppose.
00:45:57 <shachaf> monqy: amazing thing about haskell: people use CPP????
00:46:06 <shachaf> btw by people i mean elliott
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00:47:33 <elliott> hey edwardk committed that not me
00:47:58 <shachaf> elliott: What about that huge mess of CPP you were doing?
00:48:06 <shachaf> I don't remember what it was for anymore.
00:49:39 <shachaf> elliott: golf your regexps.......
00:50:09 <shachaf> That could be a whole character shorter!
00:55:32 <kmc> obfuscated regex contest
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01:04:27 <kmc> hulu is now overlaying a logo for "FOX 25 WFXT Boston" onto my video
01:04:32 <kmc> based on... my geolocated IP?
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01:38:51 <sgeo> Oh god I'm getting into a flame war on YouTube commentws
01:39:40 <sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcuBvj0pw-E
01:39:50 <sgeo> About whether or not Stargates in Game of Life allow >c travel
01:40:43 <Bike> that sounds like a pretty sad flame war.
01:45:24 <Arc_Koen> first the video says "information can't travel at more than 1 cell / time unit
01:45:52 <Arc_Koen> and then the video says "but I have here a figure that allow for information to travel at 30/28c
01:45:58 <Arc_Koen> without any justification whatsoever
01:46:04 <Arc_Koen> that sounds like basic bullshit!
01:46:40 <Bike> define "information" define "travel" define "bla" bla "define" bla "bla"
01:46:41 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a reaction wherein you put an LWSS in one end and, 14 generations later, you get another LWSS shifted 15 generations forward.
01:47:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, it's easy to rigorously define, if that's what you mean.
01:48:02 <Arc_Koen> but it only works with one precise shape?
01:48:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, the trick is that you get an LWSS out whether or not one went in; however, if there was no input the output decays a few generations later.
01:48:10 <elliott> Bike: CA information travel is pretty well-studied afaik
01:48:13 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: That illusion confuses me
01:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://conwaylife.appspot.com/pattern/fastforwardforcefield
01:49:11 <Bike> yeah, but that doesn't mean people on youtube know the definitions :V
01:49:34 <sgeo> Also, how is "travel" defined?
01:49:49 <Bike> you say "pretty sure" a lot
01:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> That's a horrible interface, but delete the LWSS and step forward 14 generations.
01:50:41 <sgeo> I tend to dislike speaking in absolutes
01:50:48 <sgeo> And in certainties
01:51:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not as clear as I remembered, but there's a front half of an LWSS in both cases; the difference propagates at c.
01:51:25 <Arc_Koen> so you're speaking in near-absolutes and almost-certainties instead?
01:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> It's playing off human pattern recognition, essentially.
01:52:01 <elliott> Comon dude we are using 64 bits these days. Those octets are way old school.
01:52:09 <sgeo> Presumably by the time the difference catches up to the front, the effective average speed is <c
01:52:55 <sgeo> Or I guess it could be c
01:54:48 <Bike> so, could you make something like a stargate for arbitrary structures
01:58:02 <Phantom_Hoover> the stargate relies on one coincidental reaction, i would bet against there being a general form
01:58:46 <kmc> "The phase velocity of electromagnetic radiation may – under certain circumstances (for example anomalous dispersion) – exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, but this does not indicate any superluminal information or energy transfer."
02:00:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect the underlying phenomenon is pretty similar.
02:02:04 <kmc> the key is that if you shut off the emitter, the signal would only propogate at the group velocity, not the phase velocity
02:04:53 <kmc> elliott: is the thing you said a youtube quote
02:05:08 <elliott> i'm not good at being that awesome
02:05:14 <kmc> the clue was that the author could not spell "come on"
02:06:02 <elliott> kmc: I'm pretty good at misspelling things!
02:06:08 <shachaf> elliott: Do you have good intuition for what costrength actually means?
02:06:42 <sgeo> My Senior Project group seemed to worship me
02:07:20 <Phantom_Hoover> that 'seemed' makes me thing you're leading into some kind of narration
02:07:48 <sgeo> Saying things like they wouldn't have been able to do this project without me
02:08:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "my senior project group seemed to worship me. i was flattered, for a while, but then it started to wear. but then... the local cats started disappearing..."
02:08:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i continue to be amazed at how much irc affects my writing style simply by cutting off the amount that i can look back on
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02:08:50 <monqy> could they have done the project without you? could you have done the project without them
02:08:58 <monqy> did you do the project for them
02:09:03 <monqy> was it a good project
02:09:11 <Bike> did the project you without senior worship do?
02:09:26 <monqy> what sort of worship was this
02:09:44 <monqy> kneeling, kissing of feet, offerings of lamb
02:10:19 <sgeo> They would have done a simpler project if I was not on the team. I could probably have done the project without them, except I had a narrower vision of what it could be. I did much of the coding. The parts that I didn't touch, that my project manager was working on, ended up not working
02:10:43 <monqy> maybe you should have touched them
02:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo i don't mean to be a negative nelly but i think this really just reflects on the fact that you were forced to study cs at a university called farmingdale
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03:52:31 <fedup> Hey, I am getting raped in my sleep
03:53:35 <elliott> fedup: feel free to tell another channel and not us.
03:54:13 <elliott> if you think that makes it relevant then you already have no idea what this channel is about
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03:55:22 <shachaf> what is this channel about anyway
03:56:14 <c00kiemon5ter> i think it's about the absurd and its impact on related things
03:57:53 <Arc_Koen> well stargates are clearly not off-topic
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03:58:27 <annoyed> this is killing me and my mom will have a fucking funeral soon
03:58:30 <elliott> this is really pathetic btw
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04:00:05 <Arc_Koen> elliott: you missed two occasions to say "I'm fed up with your kind" already
04:00:07 <Bike> so, is this someone who's been here before, or just an individual discouraged by the lack of esotericism in his life?
04:00:21 <elliott> pretty sure this is just some idiot
04:00:28 <elliott> since they apparently think astral projection is related to the channel's topic
04:00:56 <shachaf> It's called astral prism now.
04:03:58 <zzo38> I do not understand what annoyed's message was supposed to be for.
04:04:36 <zzo38> It is same as fedup
04:04:43 <zzo38> They change their name
04:05:03 <shachaf> I thought they were totally different people.
04:05:47 <zzo38> Well, maybe it is, but if so it must be different people using same computer/router
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04:11:08 <zzo38> I try making CsoundMML.
04:17:48 <zzo38> I have another session of Dungeons&Dragons game recorded now.
04:44:46 <zzo38> c00kiemon5ter: Are you absurd?
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06:17:05 <coppro> http://www.jeremyroman.com/2012/12/11/building-a-brainfuck-compiler-with-llvm
06:17:12 <coppro> one of my classmates actually did it
06:23:14 <zzo38> Yes, I think I saw even a brainfuck compiler included with examples of LLVM, but there ought to be some more kind of optimization in LLVM which is capable of dealing with it.
06:37:49 <zzo38> 3 more days until we all die! of embarrasment.
06:38:00 <zzo38> (from Global Onelinerz)
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06:49:31 <zzo38> Someone told me that NTSC does have teletext, but it is not used.
06:49:45 <zzo38> But it should be used!
06:50:15 <zzo38> I think they should offer the TV listing channel in teletext.
06:51:27 <fizzie> I think they should offer TV listings in MHP.
06:51:39 <fizzie> What, people actually *use* MHP? Crazy stuff.
06:51:51 <zzo38> What does MHP mean?
06:51:55 <fizzie> ("In May 2010 the largest deployments DVB-MHP are in Italy (DVB-T), Korea (DVB-S), Belgium (DVB-C) and Poland (DVB-S) with trials or small deployments in Germany, Spain, Austria, Colombia, Uruguay and Australia.")
06:52:08 <fizzie> It's an "interactive TV" kind of thing that is part of the DVB stuffs.
06:52:20 <fizzie> It's based on something vaguely J2MEish.
06:52:25 <zzo38> I don't think they need interactive TV.
06:52:41 <fizzie> "MHP service was also offered in Finland by Finnish Broadcating Corporation (Yleisradio), but the service was shut down at the end of 2007 after technical failure. The shutdown wasn't ever officially announced."
06:52:54 <hagb4rd> dvb is crap.. everytime a train passes by i loose the signal
06:53:10 <zzo38> They should use teletext, but still work in normal NTSC video too, in case you don't have teletext on your TV set.
06:53:27 <zzo38> Weather should also be available in teletext.
06:53:30 <fizzie> I remember there being much ado about MHP back when Finland did the DVB conversion, about how things are going to be all different. (They weren't.)
06:53:51 <elliott> "in case you don't have teletext" :D
06:55:25 <fizzie> I have a DVB-T stick (or maybe several?) somewhere in the closet; legally I could take it out after about 13 days.
06:59:06 <fizzie> (The rules about the television fee say something about having to pay if it's "easily possible" to watch TV broadcasts; I've interpreted it so that as long as I have to go rummage around a closet to find the stick I don't have to pay.)
07:01:03 <zzo38> And then you have to put it back?
07:01:52 <hagb4rd> i would flush it down the drain, but i fear it would return some way in a mutant version
07:02:22 <kmc> do they have tv detecting vans in finland
07:03:40 <fizzie> zzo38: If I take it out after 13 days, I wouldn't have to put it back, because things change from the television fee to a "media tax" that everyone has to pay at the beginning of 2013.
07:04:02 <zzo38> fizzie: O, OK, then.
07:04:10 <fizzie> kmc: I've think I've heard rumours, but I somehow doubt it. There are people ringing doorbells, though.
07:04:14 <hagb4rd> aw they changed this in finland too?
07:05:28 <elliott> kmc: have you seen the uk tv licensing adverts
07:06:02 <kmc> some of them
07:06:37 <zzo38> I think I have read that in England, it is OK to watch the show if it is after the show is on, and that no license is required for audio? If this is correct, a way to make it work would be to encrypt the picture, and then broadcast the key afterward? I think the license fee is less for black&white; therefore, encrypt the Y signal separate from the U and V signal.
07:08:54 <zzo38> Does such thing even work correctly?
07:10:41 <fizzie> The professor lecturing the encryption course publishes the exam about a week or two in advance, encrypted with AES-128. Or at least used to.
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07:11:13 <zzo38> fizzie: O, I didn't know that!
07:12:22 <elliott> fizzie: automatic pass if you can decrypt it?
07:12:49 <zzo38> Maybe you still have to answer the questions but you can do it ahead of time if you can decrypt it, isn't it?
07:12:58 <fizzie> elliott: In the sense that then you know what is going to be asked at the exam. (Well, maybe it's even more automatic.)
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07:13:29 <oklopol> the professor would probably assume you broke into his office.
07:13:31 <fizzie> I doubt anyone has ever managed to take advantage of it. Though I suppose you could deduce something about the length of the exam from the file size.
07:13:53 <zzo38> And even if you cannot decrypt it, that mean if they give you the key afterward, separate for each one, then you can check that the exam has not been changed, at least.
07:13:56 <fizzie> It's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaisa_Nyberg -- see, a notable person and all.
07:14:18 <oklopol> dissertation in topology, teaching cryptography?
07:17:02 <fizzie> I don't see the exams on the current courses' pages; perhaps she's stopped. There doesn't really seem to be a logical place to put them in anyway now that all course information is in the centralized portal thing.
07:19:17 <fizzie> All the leftover old pages seem to just contain the exam problems as plaintext, I suppose they get put there once the exam is over.
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09:31:50 <oerjan> <elliott> please go away <-- HEY SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR RAPE VICTIMS
09:32:05 <oerjan> (you could at least have done a `welcome)
09:32:38 * elliott isn't interested in engaging with an obvious troll trying to offend people. you shouldn't be interested in implicitly furthering it either
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09:33:05 * oerjan changes the battery on elliott's joke detector
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09:33:16 <shachaf> (Unless that troll is cheater, of course.)
09:33:51 <elliott> that makes marginally more sense
09:33:54 <elliott> oerjan: you know, trolls usually aren't being serious either
09:34:10 <oerjan> wait, what, impossible!
09:34:30 <oerjan> well i _am_ norwegian...
09:34:44 <oerjan> could easily be part troll
09:34:54 <oerjan> i don't really like too much sunlight
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10:37:44 <fizzie> The news reports that it's the most snowy christmas in Helsinki since 1965. (Apparently there's 64 cm -- about two feet -- of snow at the Helsinki-Vantaa airport; the 1965 record being 78 cm / ~2.5 feet.)
10:38:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: Is that a christmas-specific record?
10:40:23 <fizzie> Yes. Well, a christmas eve record, so the comparison to today is a bit bogus.
10:40:35 <fizzie> Source: http://yle.fi/uutiset/etelaan_tulossa_vuosituhannen_lumisin_joulu/6421280
10:41:30 <fizzie> (I don't know how their logic works: "Esimerkiksi Helsinki-Vantaalla lunta oli tiistai-iltana 64 senttiä. -- Ilmatieteen laitoksen havaintopaikoista tiistaina lunta oli eniten Kittilän Kenttärovalla, 62 senttiä. Seuraavina tulevat Enontekiön Karesuvanto (60 senttiä), Kittilän Pokka (60) ja Enontekiön Hetta (57). Lapin paikkakuntien jälkeen tuleekin jo Helsinki-Vantaa. Yli puoli ...
10:41:35 <fizzie> ... metriä lunta on myös Anjalassa (51 senttiä)."
10:41:47 <fizzie> Apparently 62 > 60 > 57 > 64 > 51.
10:42:04 <fizzie> Perhaps the initial 64 should've been 54.
10:42:14 <fizzie> (It's 62 cm currently.)
10:45:51 <oerjan> i think the problem is you're trying to interpret finnish as logic.
10:46:55 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> i think the problem is you're trying to interpret finnish as logic.
10:47:02 <HackEgo> 874) <oerjan> i think the problem is you're trying to interpret finnish as logic.
10:49:48 <hagb4rd> we had political party here in germany and wanted to raise the value added tax by 2 percent. i voted for another party which didn't want to raise the tax. in the the end we've got a coalition of both and the tax was raised by 3 percent
10:50:18 <fizzie> "default" VAT is going up by one.
10:50:25 <fizzie> Though I think it was already pretty high?
10:50:45 <fizzie> It used to be 22% a while ago, it got hiked up to 23% not long ago at all, and now it's going to be 24%.
10:51:39 <fizzie> "Standard Rate 23% (since Jul 2010)" -- that's when they last bumped it up.
10:52:14 <Deewiant> The bump to 22% was in 1998 IIRC.
10:52:27 <fizzie> I think those reduced numbers for some stuff also used to be one lower (8%, 12% vs. current 9%, 13%) before the 23%-bump.
10:52:44 <Deewiant> Yeah, I'm pretty sure they bumped everything by 1 percentage point.
10:55:23 <fizzie> Also there was something about reducing the minimum absolute amount of VAT that needs to be paid when importing stuff. It used to be that you didn't need to pay VAT until you went over 43.45 eur of total value (leading to e.g. the verkkokauppa.com e-tailer having a billion products priced exactly at 43.40 eur sold technically from Åland), but that limit is dropping to 22 eur.
10:55:47 <fizzie> I bought my something from there.
10:55:51 <fizzie> Some game or something.
10:56:26 <fizzie> No, it was the PS3 controller.
10:57:09 <fizzie> 43,40 € at 0% VAT. (You can only order those products as a separate order containing only one thing.)
10:59:43 <fizzie> I wonder if there'll be a lot of stuff sold at 21.95 eur next. (But they can't probably really afford to keep selling the newest games and such that have used to be at the 43.40 price point.)
10:59:59 <Jafet> So when does it reach 100%
11:00:26 <hagb4rd> i wouldn't pay more than 22EUR for a game anyway
11:00:54 <elliott> fizzie: Surprised it wasn't 43.44.
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11:02:38 <fizzie> elliott: We don't use not-a-multiple-of-0.05 prices all that much, since we don't have those smaller coins. Though I suppose that wouldn't matter so much since it'd be mail-order and paid by other payment methods in any case.
11:03:16 <fizzie> Going to the shop to buy a single potato or something that ends up costing 0.02 eur after weighting is I believe a common prank-ish thing to do. Sometimes it nets you a free potato, since it rounds down to 0.
11:03:40 <fizzie> Sometimes I understand they just refuse to sell it to you.
11:04:19 <fizzie> Also, there are people who pay with cash when the final total price happens to round down, but with card when it would round up, since the rounding doesn't happen if you don't pay cash.
11:04:47 <fizzie> (Presumably there are also people who keep track and choose their purchases so that the total always rounds down, but perhaps fewer.)
11:07:21 <oerjan> presumably people who don't account for the value of their own time
11:08:49 <oerjan> i read somewhere that it's usually not worth it to shop around for gasoline, because any difference is made up by the increased gasoline used when _not_ driving to the closest one
11:09:33 <fizzie> I've heard something like that, too. Though often there are competing gas stations ~right next to each other. (And they have loyalty card bonus stuff and such.)
11:11:16 <hagb4rd> also there probably are stations along the way you have to go anyway.. so you might be able to spare the fewcents if you fuel up
11:12:00 <fizzie> Fuel prices are about the only thing that tends to be measured in units of 0.001 eur (per litre) hereabouts.
11:12:21 <shachaf> Is the last digit always 9?
11:12:43 <fizzie> It's not always 9. I'm sure there's some kind of a statistic about it.
11:13:28 <shachaf> Of course that's $/gal, not €/l
11:14:15 <shachaf> But the 9s are often painted onto signs.
11:14:49 <fizzie> Bah, the statistics I can find are mostly about things like yearly or monthly averages, which have been rounded to two decimals after the point.
11:14:50 <hagb4rd> i've heard a cruiseship emits the same value of greenhaus gases on a one way trip, than the entire republic emits on the road
11:15:17 <fizzie> It is often 9, but it's not always 9.
11:16:22 <fizzie> Here's a website; ten random prices from there are 1.609, 1.589, 1.609, 1.599, 1.599, 1.599, 1.574, 1.639, 1.599, 1.624.
11:16:46 <fizzie> Five non-nines in the next group of 10.
11:17:12 <fizzie> So it's 9-biased but not always 9.
11:17:41 <fizzie> It does seem to be (almost) always either 9 or 4, though.
11:18:34 <fizzie> 1.60 eur/l is I think 8 $/gal.
11:18:52 <hagb4rd> maybe due to the weird rounding policy you've mentioned before
11:18:59 <shachaf> Gasoline in the US is so cheap. It's ridiculous.
11:19:26 <fizzie> The rounding would apply to cents, not these... decicents.
11:19:50 <hagb4rd> i guess it's a marketing thang..and has to do with the psychological effects
11:19:58 <fizzie> Yes, I suppose it's pretty much a step of 0.005 instead of 0.001, and then they make it 0.001 lower so that it seems cheaper.
11:20:10 <hagb4rd> (if you're working in marketing or advertising -> kill yourself)
11:20:27 <fizzie> I don't know if, say, 1.574 really "feels" cheaper to me than 1.575, though.
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11:20:52 <Jafet> Kill yourself -- guaranteed instant relief.
11:21:25 <Jafet> (Offer not valid for all methods of suicide.)
11:22:22 <fizzie> I seem to recall that people advised us to fuel up on the Norway side of the border when driving Norway-Sweden-Finland last April.
11:22:55 <fizzie> Not that the price difference was anything really dramatic, though. But I suppose there is one.
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11:24:20 <fizzie> It was hard to compare prices without doing any calculations, since they change the currency from SEK to NOK on the border too, and those two are similar-but-not-really-the-same in value.
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11:46:10 <fizzie> Other news: our new washing machine has a "smart diagnostics" mode, where when you have a problem and call their tech support, they'll tell you to put the phone next to the machine, and do a special keypress (press-and-hold 'Temp' for three seconds), and then it'll do a ~15-second bleepery that sounds vaguely like a SSTV signal that their equipment theoretically can pick up and decode to see ...
11:46:16 <fizzie> ... what the machine itself thinks is wrong with it.
11:46:24 <fizzie> Also they have a smartphone app for decoding it yourself.
11:46:40 <fizzie> I think it's a terribly silly feature, but somehow also awesome.
11:47:10 <fizzie> There should be more human-audible-range analog things going on in the world.
11:47:40 <nortti> reading too much fingerpori gives you a strange sense of humor
11:48:24 <oerjan> fizzie: does it say "I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed."?
11:48:46 <fizzie> oerjan: The beeps in the demo video did sound somewhat sad, if that counts.
11:49:19 <fizzie> oerjan: The smartphone app probably applies some censorship and just prints "I like to wash your clothes every day!"
11:49:55 <oerjan> "Oh no, not gym socks. Anything but gym socks."
11:50:40 <hagb4rd> http://burymewithmymoney.com/
11:51:07 <fizzie> oerjan: It also plays a little tune when you turn it on, when it starts, and especially when it's ready; and beeps when you change any setting. It's very loud, and there's no volume control.
11:51:45 <fizzie> Also, if you turn it on and then turn it off without doing anything, the turning-off melody is kind of like the sad version of the very upbeat power-on tune.
11:52:03 <fizzie> Still, it's not quite as emotionally charged as the tunes played by the Roomba.
11:52:28 <fizzie> Roomba's "I'm stuck and confused and can't go on" dirge is really sad.
11:52:31 <hagb4rd> emotionally charged is i think the opposite of depression
11:55:09 <shachaf> ion: http://mimg.ugo.com/200902/19213/double-fannuci.jpg
11:55:15 <shachaf> Hmm, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1d/Zork_Zero_Double_Fanucci.png
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11:58:07 <oerjan> fizzie: ah so it's evil, check.
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12:20:27 <sgeo> "Optimized for Windows and Mac OS"
12:20:40 <sgeo> Was unaware that supporting an OS was "optimizing" for it
12:20:55 <sgeo> http://www.corel.com/corel/
12:21:06 <sgeo> (And yes, my first thought was 'they're still around?')
12:21:43 <fizzie> Working at all does sound more optimal than not working at all, assuming arguendo that the piece of software is good for anything.
12:21:52 <fizzie> (They're still around?)
12:22:22 <fizzie> (And PSP is now a Corel product?)
12:22:23 <hagb4rd> lastly i should explain the customer why supporting an os is configurating..at least not the sense he undestands it
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12:23:50 <fizzie> I see they still have the hot air balloon in CorelDRAW packaging.
12:24:03 <hagb4rd> aw what's the verb of configuartion.. it seems i totally screwed up what i wanted to say :(
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12:27:16 <hagb4rd> i should have know that since it's "konfigurieren" in german..hell this is definitely not my day
12:28:12 <hagb4rd> ok.. it could get worse, that's true.
12:29:56 <oerjan> hagb4rd: nah, it could easily have been "configurate", english isn't that predictable
12:30:26 <fizzie> Perhaps even "confurgilate".
12:30:38 <fizzie> You just never know, with English.
12:30:45 <hagb4rd> thanks oerjan. i feel better now ;)
12:30:45 <oerjan> it depends on things such as whether the word passed through french or directly from latin
12:31:23 <fizzie> "Etymology: < Latin configūrāre, to fashion after some pattern, < con- together + figūrāre to shape: see figure v. Compare French configure-r (16th cent. in Littré)."
12:32:09 <fizzie> The quotations of OED are always nice.
12:32:11 <fizzie> 1382 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) Phil. iii. 10 Configurid, or made lyk, to his deeth [1582 Rhem. configured to his death].
12:38:55 <Taneb> How easy is it to use Ubuntu's Unity with not-Ubuntu?
12:39:41 <Taneb> Ignore the fact that I should die for wanting this
12:40:03 <monqy> im sorry but it is a hard fact to ignore
12:44:49 <fizzie> Odds don't seem too good.
12:45:35 <fizzie> Arch wiki does have a page about Unity, though.
12:57:12 <Taneb> To finally apply to university
12:58:32 <hagb4rd> fizzie: is the OED free to use after subscription?
13:00:49 <hagb4rd> i love the quote btw.. configured to death. great!
13:01:46 <fizzie> I think you have to pay for it, normally. (The university has a campus-wide license, which is what I'm using.)
13:02:47 <fizzie> Apparently you need to register even just to get price information, which is a bit nasty.
13:03:04 <fizzie> Oh, I was looking at the "Institutions" section,.
13:03:22 <fizzie> It's $295/year or $29.95/month.
13:04:02 <hagb4rd> aw, too much for an language amateur like me.
13:04:22 <hagb4rd> there are enough free sources round the web
13:04:48 <fizzie> Yes, I wouldn't pay for it either. Though the etymology entries are nice.
13:05:23 <fizzie> Still, Wiktionary says "Etymology: Latin configurare: compare French configurer. See configurate." That's pretty much a concise version.
13:06:39 <fizzie> I have a dead-tree edition of the concise something at home, but I can't quite recall what it is.
13:07:23 <fizzie> It might be the "Concise Oxford English Dictionary".
13:07:34 <AnotherTest> I like how template<class o>o(O)(o(Oo)){} is actually valid C++
13:07:41 <fizzie> It's thick, but it's still a single book.
13:07:55 <fizzie> ("The latest edition of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary contains over 240,000 entries and 1,728 pages (concise only compared to the OED at over 21,000 pages).")
13:08:20 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Disregarding the template bit, that looks remarkably much like Glass.
13:08:49 <fizzie> {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]} and so on.
13:09:57 <AnotherTest> Well my entire function looks like this: template<class o>o(O)(o(Oo)){return !(o((o)(Oo)))?0:((Oo))/(!0 + !0);}
13:11:04 <ion> shachaf: k
13:11:34 <fizzie> "Ooo, OOo" is something you can say when OpenOffice.org has impressed you.
13:11:43 <AnotherTest> auto(____)(){return([]{return([]{return(([]{return((1)^(((1)^(0))&-((1)<(0))));}));});});}
13:11:44 <AnotherTest> template<class _>_(___)(_ (__), ...){return(__)&(!([&]{return(!((1)));})()&&((____)()()()()));}
13:11:51 <fizzie> Or could hypothetically say.
13:17:23 <Jafet> [](){}() is valid C++
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13:18:24 <AnotherTest> lambda's really are a blessing for obfuscation
13:23:36 <AnotherTest> Expressions like int a[][true][true] = {{{[]{return 1;}()}}}; could be interesting
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14:13:17 <FireFly> []{}() is an immediately-called empty lambda function taking no parameters?
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14:53:42 <sgeo> On the one hand, I kind of want to link to my Senior Project, on the other, it's full of security holes
14:54:17 <sgeo> But those security holes are mostly in the form of "I'm pretending to be another person. Oops, I just terminated the sesion"
14:54:26 <sgeo> At least, the security holes I'm aware of
14:54:45 <quintopia> no worries, we'll not care enough to break it
14:55:48 <AnotherTest> of course we will break it! We will spend hours and hours destroying it so we can prove our hacker skills to the world
14:56:46 <AnotherTest> and then we will launch a massive ddos on freenode!
14:56:58 <Jafet> Just make sure to run it on your computer as root.
15:00:01 <hagb4rd> well there's a good market out there for companies specialized in identifying security leaks. so it's not thats that unproductive or worthless at all
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15:04:35 <hagb4rd> it really depends on the project, and its goals. guess as long as it's some kind of scientific experiment which is not about security you don't need to fear indeed
15:06:30 <fizzie> From what I hear, you can also make money by selling security holes.
15:06:37 <fizzie> As long as it's a popular enough piece of software.
15:06:56 <fizzie> Perhaps the markets for security holes in Sgeo's Senior Project 3.11 are somewhat limited.
15:08:57 <sgeo> If we ever actually put this out into the public or sell it or something that market might grow
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15:19:02 <boily> I have 2$ (canadian) to spare. how many security holes can I buy with that?
15:20:13 <fizzie> Forbes says a zero-day exploit for iOS goes for $100000-$250000.
15:20:42 <fizzie> Adobe Reader, $5k-$30k; Android $30k-$60k; Windows $60k-$120k.
15:20:52 <fizzie> Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2012/03/23/shopping-for-zero-days-an-price-list-for-hackers-secret-software-exploits/
15:22:13 <fizzie> (I make no guarantees anything in the article is accurate. Or whether "the Grugq" really exists.)
15:33:31 <FreeFull> Finding an exploit isn't super duper super mega hard
15:33:42 <AnotherTest> does anyone want to buy a security hole in my latest interpreter?
15:34:17 <AnotherTest> I'll make an unusable language with a hole in it, so you can claim to have broken it
15:39:24 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/wiki/6ix is this really unusable for programming?
15:41:28 <AnotherTest> I bought a hole in it some time ago, so it's actually usable.
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16:20:07 <FreeFull> http://dpaste.org/JxU3i/ Haskells type system is biting me in the ass, time can't be both Word32 and Int (Pixel takes Word32, setPixel takes a Surface, Pixel and two Ints)
16:20:29 <FreeFull> So I want to pass time in an expression to Pixel but can't
16:22:10 <FreeFull> What can I do short of having two time arguments with both having the same value?
16:23:39 <sgeo> Convert time from Int to Word32?
16:23:54 <kmc> :t fromIntegral
16:23:54 <sgeo> Actually, where do you need time to be an Int anyway?
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16:29:14 <FreeFull> sgeo: For setPixel's x and y coordinates
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18:26:11 <zzo38> Is there a chess rating system with: is not specific to chess, ratings must be relative to a reference date, rating of average player is zero, rating of a player who never played is negative infinity or NaN, and the rating tends to decrease as the reference date is advanced from the last time a player has played to the present.
18:28:26 <boily1> zzo38: that'd assume a uniform decay rate in time between players.
18:30:18 <zzo38> I didn't mean they always decrease; I only mean it tends to do so.
18:30:23 <kmc> http://blog.theincredibleholk.org/blog/2012/12/18/how-do-we-read-code/ eyetracker!
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20:09:48 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> of course we will break it! We will spend hours and hours destroying it so we can prove our hacker skills to the world <-- i'm sorry i cannot take you seriously when you don't spell it "skillz"
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20:57:46 <oerjan> @quote monoid.*problem
20:57:46 <lambdabot> roconnor says: a lens is a monoidal natural transformation between higher-order coalgebra functors, what's the problem?
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20:57:51 <oerjan> @quote monoid.*problem
20:57:52 <lambdabot> ciaranm says: a comonad is just a comonoid in the category of endofunctors. what's the coproblem?
20:58:00 <oerjan> @quote monoid.*problems
20:58:01 <lambdabot> No quotes match. You untyped fool!
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20:58:36 <Bike> not endocofunctors?
21:00:25 <hagb4rd> `pastelogs monoid.*problems
21:00:51 <oerjan> Bike: i'm not sure that's a term
21:01:01 <hagb4rd> `logpaste monoid.*problems
21:01:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18377
21:01:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logpaste: not found
21:01:26 <oerjan> hagb4rd: actually i found it on http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/150bwl/solving_the_global_software_crisis_using_haskell/c7i7d47 and wondered if it was in lambdabot
21:01:53 <Bike> next you'll tell me "coproblem" isn't a term
21:02:18 <oerjan> Bike: of course it's a term, it's a problem caused by your coworkers!
21:04:30 <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co".
21:04:31 <hagb4rd> we had no monoid problems so far :p
21:05:15 <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot!
21:06:41 <hagb4rd> there was another version of that saying "i had a problem and i though i'd use java. now i have a problem factory"
21:07:16 <hagb4rd> ok.. of course you knew that one also
21:20:24 <quintopia> !quote add <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co". <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot!
21:20:51 <quintopia> `quote add <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co". <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot!
21:21:04 <quintopia> `addquote <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co". <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot!
21:21:08 <HackEgo> 875) <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co". <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot!
21:21:14 <atriq> You get there in the end :)
21:21:29 <quintopia> one of these days there'll be a standard bot interface
21:21:36 <quintopia> and i can stop relying on my poor memory
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21:22:40 <hagb4rd> this will be the day we start to create macros to shortcut things up
21:23:54 <hagb4rd> (and mess things up again running in circles)
21:25:49 <quintopia> but i wish egobot would say stuff like "i don't have that function, idiot. have you tried asking hackego? it's command character is `"
21:26:28 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121219-mystery.wav bleep blop bliblop bleep
21:27:32 <hagb4rd> the marriage of heaven and hell
21:28:04 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:28:16 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:28:35 <oerjan> `run sed -i '875s/[<]o/ <o/' quotes
21:28:47 <HackEgo> 875) <pikhq> Conext coyou'll cotell come cothat coyou cocan't coprefix coeverything cowith co"co". <oerjan> pikhq: coof urse conot!
21:30:52 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
21:31:09 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
21:31:17 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?
21:31:34 <oerjan> sadly i didn't have access to lambdabot
21:32:37 <oerjan> i doubt they'd appreciate a command just for #esoteric bots, anyway
21:33:50 <oerjan> the haskellers in other channels
21:34:02 <oerjan> and lambdabot's maintainer (cale?)
21:34:20 <hagb4rd> okay.. don't know much about lambdabot at all
21:34:39 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
21:34:52 <lambdabot> @where <key>, return element associated with key
21:35:13 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:35:34 <oerjan> i'm sure there's a command for it, but heck if i can remember the name
21:35:55 <lambdabot> http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Lambdabot
21:36:03 <sgeo> Person who I assume advised me when I came into the college saw me today by coincidence
21:36:09 <oerjan> the last one used to work
21:36:17 <sgeo> Said I was the smartest person to walk into her office, how glad she was to have met me, etc. etc.
21:36:46 <Bike> did you get a card
21:38:03 <lambdabot> ##crypto ##freebsd ##logic ##proggit ##villagegreen #agda #arch-haskell #codez #darcs #esoteric #fedora-haskell #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #happs #haskell #
21:38:03 <lambdabot> haskell-blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game #haskell-in-depth #haskell-lens #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.dut #
21:38:03 <lambdabot> haskell.es #haskell.se #haskell.tw #learnanycomputerlanguage #lesswrong #macosx #macosxdev #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #snapframework #tanuki #teamunix #unicycling #xmonad #yi weird#
21:38:17 <oerjan> hagb4rd: entirely equivalent afaik
21:38:36 <oerjan> people in #haskell, presumably
21:38:51 <Bike> is #happs short for #happenings
21:39:13 <oerjan> Bike: no, it's a haskell web framework
21:39:24 <oerjan> or wait is that happstack
21:39:54 <oerjan> /list #happs seems to indicate it's the same
21:41:55 <oerjan> Bike: btw i found it by actually looking at that ?list web link
21:43:19 <oerjan> the first word on each line is the plugin name, a haskell module providing those particular commands to lambdabot
21:44:30 <oerjan> afaik my only contribution is that i think the unlambda plugin is descended from my old interpreter
21:44:46 <oerjan> @unlambda ````.t.e.s.ti
21:47:27 <oerjan> it's still in the web list but disabled :(
21:47:36 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask b52s babel bf bid botsnack brain bug check choice-add choose clear-messages compose devils dice dict dict-help djinn djinn-add
21:47:36 <lambdabot> djinn-clr djinn-del djinn-env djinn-names djinn-ver do docs dummy easton echo elements elite eval fact fact-cons fact-delete fact-set fact-snoc fact-update faq farber flush foldoc forget fortune
21:47:36 <lambdabot> fptools free freshname ft gazetteer get-shapr ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki hackage help hitchcock hoogle hoogle+ id ignore index instances instances-importing irc-connect jargon join karma
21:47:36 <lambdabot> karma+ karma- karma-all keal kind learn leave let list listall listchans listmodules listservers localtime localtime-reply lojban map messages messages? more msg nazi-off nazi-on nixon oeis offline
21:47:36 <lambdabot> oldwiki palomer part paste ping pl pl-resume pointful pointless pointy poll-add poll-close poll-list poll-remove poll-result poll-show pretty print-notices protontorpedo purge-notices quit quote rc
21:47:38 <lambdabot> read reconnect remember repoint run shootout show slap smack source spell spell-all src tell thank you thanks thx ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete topic-cons topic-init topic-null topic-snoc
21:47:40 <lambdabot> topic-tail topic-tell type undefine undo unlambda unmtl unpf unpl unpointless uptime url v vera version vote web1913 what where where+ wiki wn world02 yarr yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw yow
21:47:41 <oerjan> perhaps they thought it was to privacy invading
21:48:03 <shachaf> oerjan: It was more that it leaked memory.
21:48:09 <shachaf> lambdabot is pretty awful. :-(
21:48:18 <Bike> @oeis 0, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 3, 4
21:48:30 <lambdabot> Length of shortest addition chain for n.
21:48:30 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,5,4,5,5,6,5,6,6,6,5,6,6,6,6,7,6,7,5,6,6,7,6,7,7...
21:49:05 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
21:49:11 <shachaf> @oeis 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
21:49:26 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
21:49:33 <oerjan> shachaf: and @tell doesn't? :P
21:49:36 <lambdabot> Triangle T(n,k), n>=0, 0<=k<=n, read by rows: T(n,k) is the number of partit...
21:49:36 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,5,5,5,2,5,6,7,7,7,4,6,9,10,11,11,11,2,7,10,13,14,15...
21:49:38 <Bike> you're bummin me out, plugin `oeis'.
21:50:14 <shachaf> oerjan: That's why you have to use @ask instead of @tell
21:51:39 <oerjan> hm that command list is old. it still has vixen.
21:52:44 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: thread killed
21:54:27 * oerjan didn't expect to see shachaf so soon :P
21:55:41 <shachaf> oerjan: How do I have 50 karma?
21:55:53 <sgeo> Why would anyone want literal XML syntax?
21:55:53 <oerjan> shachaf: the usual suspects
21:55:58 <sgeo> XML is so ugly
21:56:20 <Bike> http://oeis.org/A000012 aha, there's my favorite sequence
21:56:32 <Bike> "Number of ways of writing n as a product of primes."
21:56:39 <boily> XML has it own... I wouldn't say beauty. more like peculiar acquired taste.
21:57:06 <boily> (a bit like some people seem to enjoy salmiakki.)
21:57:29 <shachaf> «I went to visit him while he was lying ill at the hospital. I had come in taxi cab number 14 and remarked that it was a rather dull number. "No" he replied, "it is a very interesting number. It's the smallest number expressible as the product of 7 and 2 in two different ways."»
21:57:29 <sgeo> Bike, shouldn't that sequence start with 0?
21:57:47 <Bike> «Differences between consecutive n. [From Juri-Stepan Gerasimov, Dec 05 2009]»
21:58:30 * oerjan goes all ramanujan on shachaf -----###
21:58:32 <Bike> sgeo: what's a fencepost between friends
21:58:42 <sgeo> There are 0 ways to write 1 as a product of primes
21:59:20 <oerjan> sgeo doesn't believe in the empty set
21:59:32 <shachaf> oerjan: the empty set is a lie created to oppress us!!
22:00:16 <sgeo> Also, is it a product if you're multiplying 1 number?
22:00:41 <sgeo> Because 3 times = 3
22:00:44 <Bike> oh hey there's even a haskell implementation listed. "a000012 = const 1" and "a000012_list = repeat 1"
22:00:48 <Bike> glad they contributed that!
22:01:14 <Bike> why must you mock me so, lambdabot.
22:01:42 <shachaf> Bike: Why don't you ever say anything original?!
22:02:17 <shachaf> No wonder the whole thing is so stagnant! You don't take me up on
22:02:17 <shachaf> anything-you just repeat it in a different order.
22:02:21 <Bike> originality is hard, and my muse is dead :(
22:02:31 <shachaf> <Bike> I can't think of anything original. I'm only good in support.
22:02:34 <Bike> http://oeis.org/A055642 man, the oeis has some really great sequences
22:03:07 <sgeo> The muse is dead. Our space is something
22:03:10 <shachaf> Bike: I'm pretty sure the decimal expansion of has digits...
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22:03:23 <Bike> http://oeis.org/wiki/Toothpick_problem and a wiki!
22:03:27 <shachaf> So that sequence should start with , not 1.
22:03:40 <Bike> the decimal expansion of blank?
22:04:09 <Bike> you use a weird numeral system, sir.
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22:14:30 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
22:16:40 <EgoBot> 20 ++[>+++++>>><<<<-]>. [21]
22:17:31 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
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22:20:17 <boily> fungot: now that you lovecraft, can you say something cheery, funny and full of joy?
22:20:19 <fungot> boily: as i viewed it. i was pouring something from one fnord to trust the tenebrous tunnel of the bridge. of the identity of the stock seemed to change from week to week as new fnord were purchased from the fnord bulb in his right hand.
22:20:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:21:11 <boily> lovecraft fnords? I guess Illuminaty were more pervasive than I previously thought...
22:23:16 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
22:23:34 <fungot> hagb4rd: background 00 background 0 color ( register 35 ( 23).
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23:23:50 <fizzie> fungot: Whick address should I poke?
23:23:50 <fungot> fizzie: 3) check for certain other keys this way. the
23:24:00 <fizzie> fungot: That's no kind of an answer.
23:24:01 <fungot> fizzie: 1) when your data is determined by its " intelli- gence," appears on your television screen is, however, sometimes these terms will be able to abort your basic program
23:24:19 <fizzie> fungot: Yeah, sometimes that happens.
23:24:20 <fungot> fizzie: try running the program is used like any other peripheral device. ( use the setlfs routine must write your programs compatible with any of the front of the pointer.
23:31:33 <olsner> fungot: where's the front of the pointer?
23:31:33 <fungot> olsner: nmi vector when setting up positions in the
23:31:58 <olsner> fungot: positions in the what?
23:31:59 <fungot> olsner: you will notice that by adding this output to the address is to establish the location which must be called by the
23:32:03 <hagb4rd> y is that cut off so badly
23:32:12 <olsner> fungot: called by the what?
23:32:12 <fungot> olsner: extended color mode, each with its low byte first, high byte will load at the fundamental frequency defines the overall volume level other than the keyboard
23:32:51 <olsner> hey mr computational linguist, why isn't fungot making sense?
23:32:52 <fungot> olsner: since the raster register is used for the envelope ( adsr), you can add another aspect of sound effects generator compatible with different machines.
23:39:00 <HackEgo> 219) <Phantom_Hoover> This is good if you are a wheat plant but bad if you like eating wheat seeds.
23:49:16 <fizzie> olsner: It's from a book, and I probably didn't spend much time in refilling the lines back together to form complete sentences.
23:49:32 <fizzie> So they all end quite abruptly.
23:50:15 <fizzie> Also, I don't think the raster register is used for the ADSR envelope at all.
23:50:21 <fizzie> fungot: Are you *sure* about that?
23:50:21 <fungot> fizzie: most simple envelope is shown below:
23:53:49 <hagb4rd> fizzie: so you have used an OCR-tool or sth?
23:55:35 <fizzie> Not me personally, but someone has.
23:57:02 <fizzie> The Project 64 etext of the Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide,
23:57:03 <fizzie> first edition. Converted to etext by Ville Muikkula. Some errors in
23:57:03 <fizzie> the original document were corrected in this etext.
23:57:46 <fizzie> I did have a script that tried to combine paragraphs back together, but I don't think it has worked very well.
23:58:33 <hagb4rd> well.. not very much indeed
23:59:29 <fizzie> Or possibly I used multiple source texts and not all of them were reparagraphed.
23:59:35 <hagb4rd> wouldn't be a good point to start splitting them by just a few symbols like dots?
00:00:16 <fizzie> That's not a bad first approximation, though there are .s in many more places than just ends of sentences.
00:00:36 <fizzie> fungot: Do you remember how this style was made?
00:00:36 <fungot> fizzie: 110 if n 0 is displayed normally by the kernal make heavy use of these locations must be selected through this ram for this bit position
00:00:46 <hagb4rd> so you have used a more advanced approach?
00:01:01 <fizzie> I don't remember what I've used.
00:01:52 <fizzie> The "word consisting of a single uppercase letter immediately before the . means it's not a sentence-ending ." can be a useful heuristic too.
00:02:12 <oerjan> the most advanced approach gave him a memory wipe afterwards.
00:02:39 <fizzie> Gets "J. Doe" style names right; breaks on poetic sentences that, say, end in I.
00:03:02 <fizzie> Or end in the name of the king Fungot I.
00:03:28 <fungot> shachaf: if you wish to read the changing output of sid or processed through the kernal
00:03:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:03:46 <HackEgo> 449) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
00:03:58 <fungot> shachaf: lfn-the logical file to be eaten, then type this: lx 0 ( medium gray) 152 ( 98) to zero amplitude after the switch. since this table is to establish the makeup of logical lines, or errors that have occurred during the i/ o
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00:56:25 <sgeo> Factor screws up dynamic scoping.
00:57:16 <monqy> is the joke that dynamic scoping is a screw up
00:59:32 <sgeo> 5 bar [ 3 foo set ] with-variable
00:59:36 <sgeo> Behaves differently fro
01:00:34 <monqy> is the real question why you'd want to do that
01:00:50 <sgeo> Erm, yes, why would you want to behave differently
01:00:56 <sgeo> It can break stuff
01:00:56 <monqy> more of a mystery than a question i guess :-0
01:01:23 <monqy> what sort of stuff
01:01:37 <sgeo> Suppose you write a word that takes in a quotation
01:02:02 <sgeo> Unbeknownst to the quotation, you want to use dynamic scoping for a specific variable, to pass in some stuff to another word you write
01:02:15 <sgeo> If you use this dynamic scoping stuff, it might not remain unbeknownst
01:02:57 <monqy> good thing i don't want to use dynamic scoping
01:03:01 <fizzie> It might instead be rebeknownst.
01:03:25 <Bike> so, the quality of a symbol being dynamically scoped is itself dynamically scoped?
01:04:40 <sgeo> It's more that all variables are forced in a new dynamic scope when you use with-scope. It's like, in a Lisp, let'ing all special variables to their current value every time you let one
01:05:58 <Bike> dynamic scoping sure is excitingn.
01:06:43 <sgeo> I sometimes think it's more essential in Factor than it is in other languages
01:07:35 <Bike> actually yeah why does a stack language even have scope
01:08:43 <sgeo> Because it can be useful sometimes?
01:08:56 <sgeo> Well, there's no lexical scoping unless you use it
01:09:14 <sgeo> (use lexical scoping, I mean)
01:09:49 <sgeo> (Lexical scoping is provided as a library. As is dynamic scoping)
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01:39:25 <sgeo> I still wish I knew what kind of idiot calls a programming language "Factor" in the age of search engines
01:40:31 * sgeo is not Slava Pestov.
01:41:10 <zzo38> Well, I think it is not idiotic I think it is OK. It is you who are over reliance on search engines.
01:49:21 <kmc> avoid success at all costs hurff durff
01:49:56 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: #esoteric exists only in your mind
01:50:13 <kmc> we are archetypes you have constructed to externalize parts of your own personality
01:50:14 <shachaf> sgeo: You could say that about most any name.
01:50:28 <shachaf> Except Web 2.0y names like "Clojure".
01:50:48 <monqy> the genius movement of web 2.0y
01:50:54 <monqy> finally we have searchable names?
01:51:08 <shachaf> monqy: symmetric lenses are "pretty cool huh"
01:51:28 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Apparently it does!
01:51:29 <monqy> guess who didn't follow your advice not to learn lens!!!!!!!
01:51:32 <sgeo> shachaf, does "COBOL" have any other meaning?
01:51:43 <shachaf> monqy: oh no you learned lens????????
01:51:58 <shachaf> monqy: i saw your ip address getting pr.hs
01:52:02 <monqy> i don't have any experience with lens but i "get it"
01:52:08 <shachaf> "so i kind of knew already"
01:52:41 <shachaf> monqy: did you learn ordinary lenses or twanvl lenses or symmetric lenses
01:52:43 <kmc> according to the SGEOBE Index, Clojure is still 140% more popular than Factor
01:53:05 <shachaf> class Weird g where foo :: (b -> t) -> ((a -> b) -> s -> t) -> (g a -> b) -> g s -> t
01:53:08 <shachaf> instance Weird Identity where foo mk mp f = mp (f . Identity) . runIdentity
01:53:09 <kmc> but Factor's popularity has surged in recent days
01:53:13 <shachaf> instance Weird Proxy where foo mk mp f = mk . f . coerce
01:53:29 <monqy> i learned the twanvl style "lens families"
01:53:34 <monqy> already knew ordinary lenses ages ago
01:53:38 <shachaf> monqy: "excellent choice sir"
01:53:51 <shachaf> but have you considered expanding your knowledge to "symmetric lenses"
01:53:59 <shachaf> (g a -> f b) -> g s -> f t
01:54:14 <monqy> i hear it's useful to use 4 functors instead of just 2!!!!
01:54:21 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: colenses are a special kind of symmetric lenses
01:54:29 <shachaf> monqy: if by useful you mean "the devil"
01:54:41 <shachaf> only crazy people use 4 functors
01:55:26 <shachaf> monqy: Anyway, I'm trying to work out what class I need to be isomorphic to ((a -> b) -> s -> t, b -> t)
01:55:48 <shachaf> It seems like Functor g => (g a -> b) -> g s -> t is pretty close.
01:55:54 <shachaf> But Functor isn't strong enough, I think?
01:56:35 <shachaf> I can't figure it out. :-(
01:57:33 <shachaf> elliott says that (Functor g => (g a -> b) -> g s -> t) ~ ((s -> a) -> b) -> t
01:58:15 <shachaf> monqy: what does that type even mean
01:58:31 <monqy> ((s -> a) -> b) -> t
02:00:01 <monqy> it'd help if i could remember what s a b t mean......i dont have enough experience to have memorized them and im sad that the type signatures for these new lenses arent cool enough to express the relationships between them!!
02:00:34 <shachaf> monqy: uh we could express the relationships between them if haskell was cool enough to have type lambdas
02:00:44 <shachaf> even if they were just synonyms not "real lambdas"
02:00:52 <monqy> "guess what haskell doesn't have"
02:01:00 <monqy> "not cool enough to have"
02:01:09 <shachaf> monqy: btw a and b are the same as in traverse
02:01:16 <kmc> i have a radical suggestion: identifiers longer than one character
02:01:17 <shachaf> traverse :: (a -> f b) -> [a] -> f [b]
02:01:26 <shachaf> kmc: I tried. edwardk vetoed it.
02:01:46 <shachaf> monqy: s stands for "structure" or "source" or "state"
02:01:52 <shachaf> t stands for "the letter after s"
02:02:12 <shachaf> kmc: s t a b isn't that bad.
02:02:14 <monqy> i personally would have used a' instead of b.....and s' instead of t...........that makes it a bit clearer..........................
02:02:32 <Phantom_Hoover> this is the _real_ reason unicode support is important
02:02:51 <monqy> fa and fb are cool too
02:03:01 <kmc> fi -> fa -> fo -> fum
02:03:06 <shachaf> monqy: but what about (Char -> Char) -> Text -> Text
02:03:52 <ion> I’d be fine with “fa”, “fb” mnemonics even with things like Text.
02:03:53 <shachaf> type Lens i o = forall f a b. (i a -> f (i b)) -> o a -> f (o b)
02:04:07 <shachaf> monqy: "btw that totally works in haskell with LiberalTypeSynonyms"
02:04:16 <shachaf> "because theyd get expanded at use site"
02:04:35 <shachaf> "if haskell had anonymous type synonyms this would work ''everywhere''"
02:05:06 <ion> (a -> 𝖺) -> s -> 𝗌
02:05:26 <shachaf> ion: thanks for using non-BMP codepoints
02:06:03 <ion> shachaf: putStrLn "(a -> \120250) -> s -> \120268"
02:06:20 <shachaf> MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF SMALL LATIN LETTER A
02:07:14 <shachaf> monqy: have you considered using four functors......PLUS a functor transformer.........
02:07:25 <monqy> ive never considered it but elliott sure did
02:07:32 <monqy> using four functors
02:07:38 <monqy> not sure if elliott's considered the transformers
02:07:42 <shachaf> elliott is using a functor transformer too
02:07:58 <shachaf> also elliott considered making jokes about five functors
02:08:15 <monqy> is he using five functors yet
02:08:19 <shachaf> "i dont care if you have to cram the fifth functor in there perpendicular to the other four"
02:08:58 <shachaf> monqy: btw maybe you need four functor transformers
02:09:11 <shachaf> (g a -> f b) -> i s -> h t
02:09:18 <monqy> elliott said 4 functors would be nice for indexed types!!!or something like that....is this true
02:09:34 <shachaf> (t1 g a -> t2 f b) -> tt3 i s -> t4 h t
02:09:43 <shachaf> "sorry edwardk i ran out of letters"
02:09:56 <shachaf> monqy: do you mean indexed lenses..........
02:10:13 <monqy> all i remember is "indexed"
02:10:27 <shachaf> (i -> a -> f b) -> s -> f t
02:10:46 <shachaf> you would think you can pick g = (i,)
02:11:00 <shachaf> but then you get ((i,a) -> f b) -> (i,s) -> f t
02:11:09 <shachaf> so you need three functors
02:12:08 <monqy> infinity functors is going too far
02:12:30 <shachaf> countable infinity functors
02:13:20 <monqy> that's aleph0 too many
02:14:04 <shachaf> monqy: ok just two functors
02:14:24 <shachaf> type Iso s t a b = (Functor f, Functor g) => (g a -> f b) -> g s -> f t
02:14:31 <shachaf> "isn't that a beautiful type"
02:15:11 <monqy> you need at least one functor.................
02:15:16 <shachaf> you need to learn about the true spirit of lenses
02:15:48 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: but that functor can be Identity if you like
02:16:01 <monqy> what if i want it to be Const r
02:17:06 <shachaf> (Proxy a -> Const r b) -> Proxy s -> Const r t
02:24:31 <hagb4rd> did you know water has about 40 unexplained anomalies? it's the source of all life.. and maybe more. interesting documentation -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SppiDB-hmzY
02:27:53 <kmc> hagb4rd: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY7XH2ulTEU
02:28:32 <Bike> kmc what does this even have to do with water, it's about calcium
02:28:34 <Phantom_Hoover> it was a tragedy when all the look around you videos got taken down
02:29:06 <Bike> it's been a while since my o-levels but i distinctly remember water being made of ghosts?
02:29:56 <Bike> well, i lived at the luxembourgish military base in cornwall when i was a teen
02:30:17 <Bike> indeed hagbard
02:30:32 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: “shitting” “me”
02:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i was tipped off to your clever deception by the fact that nobody would want to have a base in cornwall
02:31:49 <Bike> well it's the only place the queen would allow it
02:31:58 <Bike> i mean, luxembourg, not exactly a world military power
02:32:20 <Bike> but treaties have to be respected, even if they were signed in the 1300s by specially trained goats.
02:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> nice try, but it would still be a diplomatic disaster if you forced anyone to be in cornwall
02:33:17 <Bike> yeah, i think we seceded once or twice
02:33:42 <Bike> it didn't really succeed because nobody believed we were there anyway, for the reasons you bring up
02:33:50 <Bike> being a luxembourgish military brat is a sad lifestyle :(
02:34:16 <Phantom_Hoover> still, at least the other kids couldn't make fun of you for your nationality
02:35:03 <Bike> they tried to call me names but they couldn't think of any good ones
02:35:12 <Bike> eventually they settled on "luxxy" but i don't think their hearts were in it.
02:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> and the only stereotypes of luxxys is that they're all really just corporations dodging tax
02:35:54 <hagb4rd> seems like your muse returns finally
02:36:38 <Bike> well, uh. i mean, i may have been in england slightly for tax reasons. a little.
02:37:07 <Bike> it's a lux special
02:37:50 <kmc> still more of a real country than liechtenstein
02:38:13 <kmc> which was a scheme by some austrians to get extra votes in the holy roman imperial reichstag
02:38:27 <Phantom_Hoover> at least liechtenstein has that whole last place to give women the vote thing
02:38:41 <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:38:52 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: last place in the EU, or what?
02:39:06 <shachaf> `addquote <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:39:08 <Bike> i thought the last place was like, switzerland... oh right they're not in the EU
02:39:11 <HackEgo> 876) <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will
02:39:27 <shachaf> On 1 July 1984, Liechtenstein became the last country in Europe to grant women the right to vote. The referendum on women's suffrage, in which only men were allowed to participate, passed with 51.3% in favor.[20]
02:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess it's because who the fuck cares if they have the vote in liechtenstein
02:39:52 <kmc> switzerland did not have universal women's suffrage at the canton level until 1990
02:39:56 <Bike> yeah hang on, i thought liechtenstein was a monarchy
02:40:07 <kmc> constitutional monarchy
02:40:28 <Bike> san marino was doing that before it was cool and look where they are now!
02:40:46 <kmc> rich as fuck?
02:43:28 <kmc> the EU used to be about just coal and steel
02:43:47 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: what about it
02:46:52 <kmc> what about bir tawil
02:48:25 <Phantom_Hoover> the closest thing we've had to a revolution was when lament got pissed
02:48:55 <sgeo> I've been in an IRC channel that had a revolution
02:49:08 <sgeo> Everyone got pissed at the channel owner, and fled to a different network
02:51:05 <c00kiemon5ter> if it was a revolution they would have taken over the channel, not move to another
02:51:26 <hagb4rd> i agree with that c00kiemon5ter
02:54:24 <sgeo> It was #MSPA previously on Stardock now on SwiftIRC
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02:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised exactly how arbitrary the assignment of north/south was.
02:58:18 <shachaf> "north" is obviously "the cooler word"
02:58:45 <zzo38> You can know where is north, where is east, etc, by the direction of spinning, isn't it?
02:58:50 <Bike> well i was just going to say yeah magnets
02:59:31 <Bike> ooh, i should say that next time the topic of lower egypt comes up.
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02:59:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean the way north is considered the fundamental direction
03:00:09 <Bike> It's not that arbitrary. Magnetic compasses, navigation by polaris, etc.
03:00:10 <shachaf> 90% of humans are in the northern hemisphere.
03:00:18 <shachaf> Therefore north is better.
03:00:19 <Bike> though a lot of the latter is due to the fact europeans live in the north.
03:00:47 <zzo38> shachaf: And how do you believe humans is better than the rest of the multiverse?
03:00:51 <Bike> it's pretty grim in the south too!
03:01:11 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but I do not think that should be enough.
03:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
03:01:24 <shachaf> You are Rosencrantz and Guildenstern!
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03:03:00 <zzo38> But I thought the north/south/east/west is according to the rotation of a sphere?
03:03:15 <Bike> Not historically.
03:03:43 <Bike> If you want to look at the terms and their usage you'd have to go to the people who actually needed to give a damn, i.e., cartographers and ship navigators.
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03:03:59 <zzo38> Perhaps, but now we can change it, just as we can do with the other units of measurement.
03:04:05 <hagb4rd> originally it was the movement of the sun along the sky.
03:04:39 <Bike> well, phantom_hoover was talking about "how arbitrary [it] was"
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03:05:00 <Bike> so, more relevant to blather about shipping than to blather about lojban
03:05:34 <hagb4rd> i can imagine that north comes from down, as long as there is no real up and down..
03:05:52 <hagb4rd> but there is east and west
03:05:53 <zzo38> Down is the direction of the gravitational force.
03:06:07 <Bike> what is the true nature of the west
03:06:34 <Bike> thank you for your explanation, compatriots
03:08:48 <zzo38> Zero longitude is also arbitrary but they chose one point, and now according to astronomy it is even if the continents move, according to rotation of the Earth you know exactly which one it is anyways.
03:10:12 <zzo38> However, at least with ecliptic longitude, that is different from geographic longitude, so ecliptic has an intersection point with the equator do define the zero point.
03:12:28 <zzo38> How they should define the geographic zero longitude today should be, according to the hour angle of the sun is _____ at J2000, for example.
03:12:50 <Bike> That's not very constant.
03:13:29 <hagb4rd> it changes due to the precession isn't it?
03:15:51 <zzo38> Well, yes the equinox point changes due to precession, but that depend if you use the equinox of current date, or of reference date. If that is what you mean.
03:17:08 <hagb4rd> aw i actually wanted to figure out what you mean.. but yes
03:17:48 <zzo38> The Sanskrit word for the amount of precession is "ayanamsha". You say it is Aquarius; well, you may have heard of the "Age of Aquarius", but really the definition of the astrological age is not agreed on; either it is [1] the negatave ayanamsha, or [2] the constellation of vernal equinox point. But in case [1] you still need a reference date!
03:19:35 <hagb4rd> well how can be there one word for the absolute amount of precession?
03:19:53 <zzo38> You still need a reference date.
03:20:20 <hagb4rd> yes.. i thought that's what you mean by j2000
03:20:26 <hagb4rd> but i must have been wrong
03:21:25 <zzo38> J2000 is the reference date.
03:21:53 <zzo38> At least, J2000 is reference date most commonly used in astronomy today.
03:23:48 <hagb4rd> i remember you've been working on some kind of astronomy program.. didn't you? have you deployed it zzo38?
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03:24:31 <zzo38> No, I have not even written it, I don't have the library and program and stuff to write it.
03:25:55 <zzo38> I tried to find it, ask someone, but I cannot find anything sufficient which is what I am trying to make.
03:26:02 <kmc> "now according to astronomy it is even if the continents move" <--- well, you still need to agree on what the shape of the earth is, and there are various competing models of that
03:27:38 <hagb4rd> hm right!.. not obvious but actually true
03:27:47 <zzo38> kmc: O, well, at least you can try... I made a slight mistake.
03:28:20 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/gxRap.jpg?1
03:29:42 <Bike> "C++ makes it easier, I guess, to do things right" this is rather more unprofessional than i would expect from a modern programming textbook shachaf!
03:29:55 <zzo38> There is not a date on this quotation?
03:29:58 <hagb4rd> is that kind of a historical source? it belongs to museum
03:30:07 <shachaf> Bike: http://imgur.com/a/Nbp70#0
03:31:05 <Bike> pretty intense
03:31:12 <hagb4rd> so it might not be influenced by precession
03:31:23 <shachaf> I like how the headline says "Objects: A silver bullet?" and then when you read the text it says "This object-oriented approach is not a silver bullet"
03:31:35 <Bike> it's like the usual headline rule, i suppose
03:31:52 <Bike> except conveniently located all on the same page!
03:32:00 <kmc> http://cdn2.damnfunnypictures.com/qwsk5cy-WasDarwinWrong001.jpg
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03:32:19 <Bike> you have to admire their commitment to negativity though, kmc.
03:32:26 <Bike> they used a whole third of a page!
03:32:46 <shachaf> «"We see virtually all C development moving to C++ over the next two to three years." -- Bill Gates»
03:33:03 <shachaf> I guess they managed that by getting rid of their C compiler and using a C++ compiler for C code.
03:33:10 <kmc> «Fuck you, I saved like a million lives» -- Bill Gates
03:33:11 <zzo38> Darwin may have been wrong about a few things.
03:33:21 <Bike> now that's innovation! -- shachaf
03:33:40 <kmc> he was certainly in the dark on many things, like the biochemical basis of heritable traits
03:34:08 <hagb4rd> zzo38 it's not that we know about the evolutionary processes for sure.. but all in all he was right yes
03:34:08 <Bike> darwin's theory on heritable traits was great though. little invisible things of sand
03:34:20 <shachaf> But on the other hand he had a pretty good barnacle collection.
03:34:33 <shachaf> Probably better than Bike's barnacle collection.
03:34:51 <zzo38> hadb4rd: It is what I mean, he may be correct in general but wrong in some details.
03:35:13 <Bike> his worm collection is also to be envied
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03:36:43 <kmc> http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/10/18/163181524/charles-darwin-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-day
03:37:37 <Bike> i like the art
03:37:38 <shachaf> > has (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:37:42 <shachaf> > hasn't (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:38:11 <shachaf> > M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)] ^.. _at 'a'
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03:38:29 <kmc> status: finnish national anthem stuck in head
03:38:40 <shachaf> > has (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:38:46 <shachaf> kmc: The Finnish one or the Swedish one?
03:38:58 <shachaf> > hasn't (_at 'a') $ M.fromList [('a',1),('b',2)]
03:39:01 <kmc> just the tune since i don't know either language
03:39:14 <shachaf> I thought it was two different tunes.
03:39:33 <shachaf> I could be wrong. :-( I should probably know that...
03:41:18 <sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora
03:43:26 <kmc> i'm not sure
03:44:53 <kmc> solanum tuberosum
04:00:23 <kmc> "Man arrested after smoking, drinking in ATM"
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04:14:03 <Arc_Koen> coppro: OK, just watched stargate continuum. now THAT was a stargate movie
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04:36:35 <zzo38> CsoundMML is now made.
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04:44:59 <sgeo> Sorry, bad joke based on Homestuck
04:45:10 <sgeo> (There's a character who can be referred to as the "Maid of Time")
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06:51:42 <zzo38> I have corrected a few defects in CsoundMML, and have added an example of "Sakura Sakura", played using plucked strings (the "wgpluck" opcode).
07:14:50 <zzo38> What color of decorations did you use for Christmas decoration today?
07:34:02 <shachaf> monqy: did you see my semisymmetric lenses
07:45:38 <shachaf> @djinn ((a -> b) -> s -> t) -> (Identity a -> b) -> Identity s -> t
07:45:39 <lambdabot> Identity d -> a (\ e -> b (Identity e)) d
07:55:57 <monqy> shachaf: are they good
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11:09:14 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think your program involves undefined behaviour. :/
11:09:51 <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:2003 17.4.3.1.1p2 "A translation unit that includes a header shall not -- define macros for names lexically identical to keywords."
11:10:12 <fizzie> You include a header (<iostream>) and the token "const" is lexically identical to a keyword (const).
11:10:17 <Jafet> Undefined behaviour is behaviour that you get to define
11:10:32 <AnotherTest> I think it's fine as long as you don't use the keywords
11:10:41 <AnotherTest> Is something a keyword if it's not used as one?
11:11:09 <fizzie> It doesn't say "but it's fine if you don't use the keywords" in the standard.
11:11:19 <fizzie> That also doesn't help.
11:11:43 * Jafet puts the handcuffs on AnotherTest
11:12:43 <fizzie> It doesn't limit the restriction like the C standard does.
11:13:28 <AnotherTest> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12286691/keywords-redefinition-in-c-c
11:13:38 <fizzie> In C it's: "The program shall not have any macros with names lexically identical to keywords currently defined prior to the inclusion of the header or when any macro defined in the header is expanded."
11:14:12 <fizzie> Oh, so they've made it even more impermissible in C++11?
11:16:59 <AnotherTest> Why is this allowed in C and not in C++ anyway?
11:17:18 <AnotherTest> The above tokens (case sensitive) are reserved (in translation phases 7 and 8) for use as keywords, and shall not be used otherwise.
11:17:57 <AnotherTest> So, in C++, keywords are always reserved (including in the preprocessing phase?)
11:18:55 <fizzie> In C++11; in C++03 they're not reserved unless you include a header.
11:19:26 <fizzie> Also, I don't have a new enough C++ compiler to compile the thing. :/
11:19:41 <fizzie> I did get a stack trace out of my clang though.
11:19:44 <Jafet> Improving C++ programs by making it harder to write standards-conforming obfuscated C++.
11:20:24 <AnotherTest> I just -illegally- downloaded the C++11 standard
11:21:12 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/GaAO -- not that I can be bothered to file a bug, I'm sure it's fixed already.
11:21:20 <AnotherTest> I can't see the point of not allowing this
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11:22:00 <Jafet> Standards-conforming C http://codepad.org/xVFNe2LP
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11:26:23 <AnotherTest> 7 Identifiers that are keywords or operators in C++ shall not be defined as macros in C++ standard library
11:28:19 <fizzie> Did you check the paragraph mentioned in the SO question?
11:28:22 <oerjan> i thought they burned that page
11:28:26 <fizzie> That is, 17.6.4.3.1 Macro names [macro.names].
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> 1 This section describes restrictions on C++ programs that use the facilities of the C++ standard library.
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> The following subclauses specify constraints on the program’s use of namespaces (17.6.4.2.1), its use of
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> various reserved names (17.6.4.3), its use of headers (17.6.4.4), its use of standard library classes as base
11:31:21 <AnotherTest> classes (17.6.4.5), its definitions of replacement functions (17.6.4.6), and its installation of handler functions
11:32:03 <AnotherTest> A translation unit shall not #define or #undef names lexically identical to keywords, to the identifiers listed
11:32:04 <AnotherTest> in Table 3, or to the attribute-tokens described in 7.6.
11:32:36 <AnotherTest> why would you want to if you can't #define them?
11:33:06 <Jafet> What if your compiler implements them as macros
11:33:21 <AnotherTest> What if they're not in a translation unit?
11:33:30 <AnotherTest> Although guess that'd be impossible to achive
11:33:34 <fizzie> Some of the "identifiers listed in Table 3" might be macros you'd want to #undef.
11:34:22 <AnotherTest> "A translation unit that includes a standard library header shall not #define or #undef names declared in
11:34:45 <AnotherTest> like when you want to get rid of a C macro that wrecks your code
11:37:02 <AnotherTest> Anyway, the good news is "that use the facilities of the C++ standard library."
11:37:15 <AnotherTest> So that means, if I don't use the standard library
11:37:29 <oerjan> clearly what we need are hygienic C++ macros.
11:38:38 <Jafet> Use Dettol after writing one
11:38:52 * oerjan cannot decide whether "are" is correct in that sentence
11:39:08 <AnotherTest> They definitely make a difference between either the C standard library
11:39:37 <AnotherTest> so if I use C's IO facilities, it should be fine
11:40:22 <AnotherTest> "The C++ standard library also makes available the facilities of the C standard library, suitably adjusted to
11:40:23 <AnotherTest> ensure static type safety." So that's definitely not the same thing.
11:40:55 <Jafet> But you can't use the C standard library in C++. You can only use the facilities of the C standard library.
11:43:22 <AnotherTest> the reality is, that there is probably no single compiler that's going to complain
11:48:05 <oerjan> @tell bike Hey San Marino is _so_ not a monarchy hth
11:51:53 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised exactly how arbitrary the assignment of north/south was. <-- did you know maps used to have east up
11:52:27 <oerjan> oh he's not here either
11:52:46 <oerjan> @ask Phantom_Hoover <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I just realised exactly how arbitrary the assignment of north/south was. <-- did you know maps used to have east up
11:54:13 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think it was some early American president?
11:54:38 <oerjan> "If gcc works, it's fine" -- James Buchanan
11:56:53 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
11:57:01 <HackEgo> 877) <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
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12:00:20 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I deobfuscamated your code, incidentally.
12:03:19 <fizzie> (I probably shouldn't spoil it, though.)
12:07:48 <oerjan> <kmc> status: finnish national anthem stuck in head <-- MOOOMMMY, I'VE GOT THE FINNISH NATIONAL ANTHEM STUCK IN MY HEAD
12:09:51 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 16) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 19) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird
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12:51:27 <fizzie> "1 jobs" -- Condor can't do plurals.
12:52:42 <oerjan> well apple also did the 1 jobs thing
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13:32:24 <shachaf> Fiora: Are you again awake or still awake?
13:33:11 <Fiora> again awake, kinda. didn't sleep that well
13:33:51 <shachaf> At least I made semisymmetric lenses work!
13:34:30 <AnotherTest> fizzie: You must admit that the text was well chosen though.
13:35:16 <Fiora> might see if I can sleep more later...
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13:41:49 <sgeo> Taneb, Fiora didn't ping you so I will (not an update other than what Fiora said)
13:42:07 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, you too
13:42:11 <sgeo> See what Fiora said
13:42:48 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:43:07 <AnotherTest> fizzie: TIP: for decoding the hidden message, only look at alphanumeric characters
13:47:43 <Fiora> ROSE: Mom? ROXY: mom?
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13:59:03 <Fiora> you can just copy paste it into a morse code converter
14:06:11 <AnotherTest> Does anyone know here of software that automagically draws UML diagrams when given a C++ program?
14:06:14 <sgeo> There's a bookmarklet
14:07:24 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, http://morseless.me.uk/
14:07:40 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> i know but that's work and boring and complicated
14:07:42 <sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/homestuck/comments/151prk/just_in_time_to_not_be_useful_my_attempt_at_a/
14:07:50 <sgeo> It's only work 1 time
14:08:10 <sgeo> Use it then hover over the morse
14:19:39 <fizzie> It's possible to use it, but it at least has been kinda horrible.
14:20:11 <AnotherTest> http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk/opensource/autodia/
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14:20:24 <AnotherTest> It claims to generate UML diagrams from C++ source code
14:21:45 <AnotherTest> although I don't really feel like using this on a 25 000 line project, because I suspect that it might just erase the whole thing or something worse
14:25:07 <Deewiant> No backups, no ability to take a temporary copy?
14:26:07 <AnotherTest> I do have backups, but it still is annoying
14:26:54 <AnotherTest> I'm going to try this on something else first
14:34:13 <AnotherTest> but I can probably fix that by writing a script
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14:50:48 <GreyKnight> `addquote <c00kiemon5ter> so up is down too
14:50:52 <HackEgo> 878) <c00kiemon5ter> so up is down too
14:52:46 <AnotherTest> well this is taking a while. I guess Perl is fast enough
14:54:24 * GreyKnight zaps Perl with a wand of speed monster
14:55:54 <AnotherTest> I have maybe 25 files of about 1000 lines of code each here, and it's taking over 20 minutes already
14:56:19 <AnotherTest> well, maybe not over 20 min, but definitely 20 min
14:57:52 <GreyKnight> how long are these lines, and are they written in mortal Perl or arcane "entire program on each line" format?
14:59:09 <GreyKnight> maybe you have an infinite loop in templates ;-)
15:00:35 <AnotherTest> Well, I'm trying to use "autodia" to generate a UML diagram of the code
15:02:38 <AnotherTest> but since that's just writing XML, I doubt that's a big deal
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15:05:21 <GreyKnight> hm surely Perl should be really good at this, odd parsing behaviour of C++ nonwithstanding
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15:09:08 <AnotherTest> it's probably stuck in some loop or something
15:10:29 <AnotherTest> "Use of uninitialized value $line in pattern match (m//) at /usr/share/perl5/Autodia/Handler/Cpp.pm line 334, <INFILE> line 95."
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15:20:14 <GreyKnight> @ask oerjan "did you know maps used to have east up" You mean back in the dwarves' day??
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15:41:12 <MDue> Nah, back in earlier versions of Minecraft, before Notch changed which direction of the world the sun rose on.
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15:43:37 <GreyKnight> I think they just fixed the map surely?
15:44:24 <GreyKnight> "Er guys the maps have east at the top..." "Oh... well, I can't be bothered fixing it, let's just claim the sun rises in the North." "Brilliant!"
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15:52:14 <ais523> the sun rises in the east, by definition
15:52:21 <ais523> that's actually how "east" is defined on arbitrary planets
15:54:19 <sgeo> ais523, how would East be defined on a large space station meant for long-term habitation
15:54:25 <sgeo> Like those O'Neill Cylinder things?
15:54:44 <GreyKnight> depends if Mojang are in charge or not :v
15:55:09 <ais523> sgeo: that's not a planet, I'm not sure it has an east
15:55:28 <AnotherTest> ais523: Pluto is not a planet, but it has an east
15:55:42 <ais523> I guess if the space station rotates
15:56:17 <AnotherTest> well it depends of course what you mean with rotate
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15:57:07 <ais523> I think what I mean is that it doesn't constantly have the same side facing the sun
15:57:26 <AnotherTest> well, then rotation around the earth is good
16:04:09 <MDude> What about on a planet that always has the same side facing the sun, like Uranus?
16:04:50 <ais523> MDude: I don't think it has compass directions
16:04:55 <ais523> because it doesn't have poles either
16:04:59 <ais523> and probably doesn't have a magnetic field
16:05:07 <AnotherTest> The space station doesn't have poles either?
16:05:25 <ais523> if it rotates, it at least has geographical poles
16:07:06 <MDude> It rotates on an axis at a near-perpindicular angle to the plane that it orbits on.
16:07:47 <MDude> But I guess since it's not exactly at 90 degrees, there might be some space at the equator where there's some day/night.
16:08:58 <AnotherTest> From wikipedia: East is the direction toward which the Earth rotates about its axis, and therefore the general direction from which the Sun appears to rise.
16:09:08 <AnotherTest> I don't think there is east on other planets
16:09:28 <GreyKnight> (so it has three days for every two years)
16:09:32 <AnotherTest> unless you can replace earth with something else there
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16:10:13 <AnotherTest> The word east is derived from the Proto-Germanic *aus-to- or *austra- "east, toward the sunrise", from PIE *aus- "to shine," or "dawn".
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16:17:23 <sgeo> I love "He Has No Face"
16:17:27 <sgeo> Just found a review of it
16:17:36 <sgeo> "Another track nicely written but not as remarkable as other works by Skaven."
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16:25:38 <sgeo> VLC is all Christmasy
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16:48:11 <Taneb> rosalind.info is kinda like Project Euler but with genetics instead of maths
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17:04:21 <sgeo> You know a movie's bad when Wikipedia's plot summary has a sentence beginning with "Eventually, and inexplicably,"
17:04:40 <sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_on_a_Train
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17:05:41 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Snakes on a train!
17:05:58 <sgeo> http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/snakes_on_a_train/
17:07:14 <kmc> "Eventually, and inexplicably, she herself transforms into a gigantic snake and swallows the moving train whole. Six passengers managed to escape unharmed and one of them performs magic to make her vanish."
17:07:19 <kmc> (spoiler alert)
17:07:38 <sgeo> Which I hadn't heard of until someone in another channel started talking about Megafault
17:08:28 <sgeo> A movie in which people manage to outrun an earthquake.
17:08:56 <elliott> I want to see Asylum's sherlock
17:09:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember half-watching a disaster movie where the heroes stop a tsunami by setting off a bomb and creating another, equally big tsunami going the other direction.
17:09:57 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Sherlock_holmes_by_asylum_film_poster.jpg
17:10:30 <sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, Megafault they do something similar but with earthquakes, I think
17:10:45 <sgeo> 'Justin yells at the driver to stop the truck. The driver replies, No way! Theres an earthquake on our tail! '
17:10:59 <quintopia> are these syfy original movies? they are known for crap like that
17:11:27 <Phantom_Hoover> sgeo, i want to see a volcano movie where they do thaty
17:13:11 <GreyKnight> This monkey will swiftly scamper to safety: http://pbfcomics.com/135/
17:14:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that doesn't work in practice, two tsunamis can pass through each other
17:15:14 <ais523> do you get a lot of waves in Hexham?
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17:20:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm, not many
17:20:19 <ais523> you get them in the canals
17:20:23 <kmc> gravity waves
17:25:12 <GreyKnight> @tell zzo38 It turns out there was some caching going on when I connected to the Internet via my phone (connecting via another Internet connection solved the "can't root page" problem)
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17:58:35 <elliott> 11:14:42: <AnotherTest> it seems
17:58:36 <elliott> 11:15:08: <AnotherTest> I just deny the standard and it's fien
17:58:36 <elliott> 11:15:11: <AnotherTest> *fine
17:58:36 <elliott> 11:15:26: <AnotherTest> It still /works/
17:58:51 <elliott> AnotherTest: then it's not a C++ program
17:59:04 <elliott> and you don't know it'll work on any compiler or compiler version or machine except the exact one you're using
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18:21:56 <AnotherTest> elliott: It probably will. Compilers actually don't check whether or not you're using the standard library facilities. (Defining keywords as macro names is allowed in that case).
18:22:19 <elliott> AnotherTest: "compilers actually don't" -- you have no idea how an arbitrary compiler behaves
18:22:46 <elliott> maybe you mean "I can't think of a compiler that does", or "I would never write a compiler that does", or "I assume nobody would ever write a compiler that does", but those are all totally different
18:22:47 <AnotherTest> elliott: Well, I do, and preprocessing and compiling are often not connected
18:22:57 <elliott> and if you make any assumptions about arbitrary compiler writers then you haven't seen enough fucked up ones yet
18:23:25 <ais523> it's a pity the DS9K doesn't actually exist
18:23:30 <ais523> then we could use it as an example
18:23:34 <ais523> (well, we use it as an example anyway, but…)
18:23:48 <AnotherTest> elliott: and if I had to pick, I'd be the latter of your options
18:24:35 <elliott> ais523: there are enough systems that loosely approximate various aspects of DS9Ks
18:24:50 <AnotherTest> remember, if gcc works, it's fine (someone, possibly some former president)
18:24:56 <elliott> anyway the easiest thing is to let AnotherTest get bitten by an assumption of sanity on a system's part
18:25:09 <elliott> AnotherTest: you should see the gcc bugs.
18:25:23 <AnotherTest> elliott: No thanks, I don't have the time for that
18:25:33 <elliott> AnotherTest: or the two very popular desktop computer operating systems whose main compiler is not gcc-based
18:25:34 <ais523> olsner: a hypothetical platform (architecture + toolchain) that's as insane as possible while still complying with the letter of all relevant standards
18:25:39 <elliott> (OS X and Windows; the former even a UNIX)
18:25:58 <ais523> what's the main compiler on OS X nowadays? clang?
18:26:00 <olsner> ah, I've been wanting something like that too, didn't know it already had a name
18:26:03 <ais523> it /used/ to be gcc, IIRC
18:26:14 <elliott> apple dropped gcc because of gpl v3 iirc
18:26:15 <ais523> olsner: the name is "deathstation 9000", "ds9k" is just the usual abbreviation
18:26:28 <ais523> elliott: yep, I remember something about that
18:26:30 <elliott> AnotherTest: sorry -- you mean clang v[full version number] on [my architecture] and [my OS] with [my system header files] and [...]
18:26:46 <elliott> there is absolutely no guarantee that clang will decide to keep this working in the future
18:27:04 <elliott> if you want to depend on it then you want some kind of statement of support
18:27:16 <elliott> not that compilers are terribly great at following the C or C++ standards
18:27:20 <AnotherTest> elliott: What I did is also not considered undefined behavior. What I did is simply not allowed according to the strict standard.
18:27:25 <zzo38> But clang has partial GNU mode, isn't it?
18:27:25 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:27:28 <elliott> but when they don't it is something you can, you know, actually report as a bug
18:27:32 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 1h 2m 20s ago: It turns out there was some caching going on when I connected to the Internet via my phone (connecting via another Internet connection solved the "can't root page"
18:28:10 <AnotherTest> elliott: So my operating system and system header files don't actually matter.
18:28:34 -!- ChanServ has quit (*.net *.split).
18:28:50 <AnotherTest> Also, my architecture will also not matter
18:29:09 <elliott> 18:27:20 <AnotherTest> elliott: What I did is also not considered undefined behavior. What I did is simply not allowed according to the strict standard.
18:29:19 <elliott> I find this a bit unlikely
18:29:26 <elliott> almost everything you're not allowed to do in C is UB, for instance
18:29:42 <elliott> I don't see why you bring it up anyway, since this strengthens my position and weakens yours
18:29:53 <elliott> and no, you *don't know* your architecture will not matter
18:29:58 <elliott> all you are making is baseless assumptions
18:30:26 <AnotherTest> I do, because CPP is going to behave the same regardless of any supported architecture for all defined behavior
18:31:05 <elliott> it's not defined behaviour if your program is simply invalid
18:31:20 <ais523> AnotherTest: huh? there are incompatibilities between CPPs on even basic stuff
18:31:32 <ais523> perhaps the best known example is " #include <stdio.h>" with the leading whitespace
18:31:43 <AnotherTest> ais523: Yes, but what is defined will work
18:31:54 <ais523> AnotherTest: even if it's defined to not work?
18:31:58 <AnotherTest> they do not change the behavior of something that has been defined
18:32:06 <elliott> "this is invalid, not UB, therefore it's defined behaviour"
18:32:10 <elliott> this argument is completely incoherent
18:32:15 <ais523> what did you do, anyway?
18:32:26 <ais523> I think we can possibly understand this argument better by removing several layers of indirection
18:32:55 <AnotherTest> Define a keyword as a macro name in a program that uses the standard library facilities
18:33:14 <elliott> what you did was not "defined to work"
18:33:28 <AnotherTest> Which is not allowed by a "restriction" on programs using the stdlib
18:33:38 <AnotherTest> So it is defined to work if you don't use the stdlib
18:33:57 <elliott> 11:09:51: <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:2003 17.4.3.1.1p2 "A translation unit that includes a header shall not -- define macros for names lexically identical to keywords."
18:34:07 <AnotherTest> So it is defined for ALL C++ programs, but the usage is restricted
18:34:15 <elliott> 11:09:51: <fizzie> ISO/IEC 14882:2003 17.4.3.1.1p2 "A translation unit that includes a header shall not -- define macros for names lexically identical to keywords."
18:34:30 <AnotherTest> I actually looked that up in the final draft, and it said something else
18:34:35 <olsner> all this talk about what's allowed and not... I don't think the C or C++ standards have been given the power to "allow" or "disallow" anything - they just say stuff about what a (standard) C or C++ compiler might do when presented with your code
18:34:46 <elliott> 11:32:03: <AnotherTest> A translation unit shall not #define or #undef names lexically identical to keywords, to the identifiers listed
18:34:50 <elliott> 11:32:04: <AnotherTest> in Table 3, or to the attribute-tokens described in 7.6.
18:34:54 <elliott> 11:26:23: <AnotherTest> 7 Identifiers that are keywords or operators in C++ shall not be defined as macros in C++ standard library
18:34:57 <elliott> 11:26:23: <AnotherTest> headers.176
18:35:21 <AnotherTest> And that was in the section for programs using the facilities of the standard library
18:36:38 <AnotherTest> so I assume that everything under that section (especially if stated in paragraph 1 of that section) only applies to those cases
18:36:53 <elliott> you included <iostream>, that's part of the standard library...
18:37:33 <ais523> yeah, "shall not" = constraint violation = UB
18:37:39 <AnotherTest> Any compiler that does not include the restriction will compile my program
18:37:59 <elliott> AnotherTest: I don't think you understand the terms you are using
18:38:15 <elliott> if you "shall not" do something but you did it then you have no guarantees
18:38:18 <AnotherTest> Then why do they state explicitly when something is undefined behavior?
18:38:34 <ais523> AnotherTest: err, they don't; sometimes they state something to be UB explicitly, but much more often they state it implicitly
18:38:44 <AnotherTest> It's defined to work for all C++ programs, but you can't do it(It's an error) in some cases
18:38:46 <ais523> there's a section near the start explaining what counts as implicit UB (basically, anything disallowed or anything that is not define)
18:39:00 <elliott> AnotherTest: time to bring out the old cliche: [citation needed]
18:39:06 <elliott> you have no basis whatsoever for that definition, you're just making shit up
18:39:40 <AnotherTest> Regardless of that, if you think logically about this; you will come to the conclusion that this must work on compilers that do not implement this restriction (which is almost all compilers)
18:40:03 <ais523> elliott: do you know whether, if you do #define a b, and then #define c a, expanding c will produce a or b?
18:40:11 <elliott> AnotherTest: no, that's not logic, that's just making assumptions
18:40:15 <elliott> you have no idea what logic is
18:40:23 <ais523> AnotherTest: imagine something in <iostream.h> is a macro that expands to something that happens to contain a keyword
18:40:24 <elliott> it's either a tautology or an assumption
18:40:27 <Deewiant> AnotherTest: "this must work on compilers that do exactly what I want on this piece of undefined behaviour"
18:40:39 <ais523> now imagine you've defined that keyword to something else
18:40:42 <elliott> ais523: don't you mean <iostream>?
18:40:42 <ais523> then use that macro later on
18:40:51 <Deewiant> AnotherTest: Which might be almost all compilers, but still.
18:40:52 <ais523> elliott: yes, I do, but I learned C++ before the .h got removed
18:40:52 <elliott> ais523: the definition comes after the #include in AnotherTest's program
18:40:55 <c00kiemon5ter> so you're saying that your program work everywhere - but it is implementation defined behavior - because of a violation that compilers do not account for
18:41:06 <AnotherTest> ais523: I include at the top, that can never happen anyway so it's irrelevant
18:41:07 <ais523> elliott: I'm trying to work out if that matters or not atm
18:41:19 <elliott> ais523: what if <iostream> defines something as a macro that uses const?
18:41:21 <kmc> IEC ain't nothin' to fuck wit
18:41:29 <elliott> I think by cpp's semantics AnotherTest's const macro will apply when that gets expanded
18:41:35 <ais523> elliott: yeah, that's the point I'm trying to make
18:41:43 <ais523> thanks for making it for me
18:41:47 <elliott> so it can very well fuck up in practice
18:41:59 <elliott> in before AnotherTest says "it's ok because no compiler that doesn't do that would do that, so it's fine"
18:42:20 <AnotherTest> you cannot implement a compiler that makes it fuck up
18:42:21 <elliott> do you understand standards
18:42:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: but you realise it would be possible to write an <iostream> where it /does/ screw up?
18:42:39 <elliott> you're just spewing random crap
18:42:43 <ais523> and that, some day, on a system where you run the program, you might come across an implementation which does use such an <iostream>?
18:42:46 <elliott> do you have any idea what anything you are saying actually means
18:42:52 <AnotherTest> ais523: No because you have to write iostream according to the standard too
18:43:17 <ais523> AnotherTest: and the standard allows iostream to use const in macro expansions
18:43:18 <AnotherTest> ais523: There are restrictions as to macros in <iostream> itself
18:43:27 <elliott> anyway it's totally irrelevant whether <iostream> can fuck it up or not
18:43:33 <ais523> there are restrictions, but that is not one of them /because of the part of the standard elliott quoted/
18:43:36 <elliott> so it doesn't even matter!
18:43:50 <AnotherTest> You can't just define some random macro in iostream
18:43:53 <ais523> AnotherTest: I don't have the contents of <iostream> memorized
18:44:01 <ais523> but there are quite possibly things in there that are defined to be macros
18:44:08 <ais523> just like "stdin" and "getc" are macros in <cstdio>
18:44:34 <ais523> (glibc actually does "#define stdin stdin" in <cstdio> because stdin is defined to be a macro, so it makes sure it's a macro)
18:44:38 <AnotherTest> ais523: Those happen to be coming from C, where macros are more common
18:44:57 <AnotherTest> The C++ standard tries to avoid macros for sure
18:45:14 <elliott> here's another way it can fuck up!
18:45:24 <elliott> the compiler is allowed to reject a program if it violates the standards
18:45:58 <elliott> for instance I am pretty sure the compiler is allowed to, say, implement "const" by, after preprocessing the entire program,
18:46:07 <elliott> replacing every use of "const" as a keyword by ____my_compilers_fun_const_macro
18:46:20 <ais523> there are actually sets of options you can give to gcc to make it screw up noticeably on certain types of undefined behaviour, for instance
18:46:23 <elliott> and then re-preprocessing with #define ____my_compilers_fun_const_macro const
18:46:30 <elliott> and also your existing #define const or something
18:46:36 <elliott> anyway it's pointless trying to come up with a tortured example
18:46:46 <ais523> which exist specifically for the purpose of diagonising issues like this
18:46:57 <kmc> ais523: cool, which ones?
18:47:22 <ais523> kmc: there's --pedantic, most famously; also various specific warning options
18:47:28 <ais523> that you can use in combination with -Werror
18:47:42 <ais523> yeah but it isn't perfect
18:48:03 <AnotherTest> There is no option for gcc that blocks this to my knowlegde
18:48:09 <kmc> oh i thought you meant beyond -pedantic -Wall -Werror -Wextra
18:48:15 <elliott> also gcc's -pedantic doesn't mean -check-for-validity
18:48:21 <AnotherTest> elliott: I just click a little box in my ide really
18:48:21 <elliott> it means -emit-the-stuff-the-standard-demands-we-emit
18:48:42 <elliott> protip: your IDE doesn't know the standard and can't verify conformance for you
18:48:55 <elliott> in fact, whether a program is standards-compliant for C or C++ is undecidable, I think
18:49:19 <kmc> "Issue all the warnings demanded by strict ISO C and ISO C++; reject all programs that use forbidden extensions, and some other programs that do not follow ISO C and ISO C++."
18:50:04 <ais523> Some users try to use `-pedantic' to check programs for strict ISO C conformance. They soon find that it does not do quite what they want: it finds some non-ISO practices, but not all--only those for which ISO C _requires_ a diagnostic, and some others for which diagnostics have been added.
18:50:07 <zzo38> I have made version 10 of FurryScript, which adds a command for story text.
18:51:00 <kmc> actually there are a few ways to use gcc extensions even with -pedantic
18:51:10 <AnotherTest> ais523: in C it would be valid, the only language in which it is not is C++11
18:51:25 <kmc> yeah for header files
18:51:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: and why does that matter?
18:51:38 <elliott> protip: it's not a valid C program because it uses C++ features
18:51:56 <ais523> AnotherTest: I am quoting from the gcc documentation
18:52:07 <ais523> specifically, if that's talking about C, it means that -pedantic is only intended for C
18:52:08 <AnotherTest> elliott: it was not referring to the program, but to the definition of keywords as macro names
18:52:13 <ais523> so why are you using it for a C++ program?
18:52:22 <kmc> i suppose -fstack-protector is another flag that makes gcc screw up noticably on certain types of undefined behavior
18:52:40 <kmc> and, uh, -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
18:52:42 <olsner> hmm, if you let some template expansion control whether or not the program does something undefined, then compliance should be undecidable due to the turing complete templates
18:52:42 <ais523> also, whatever that complex series of options are that make it do bounds checking
18:52:47 <AnotherTest> ais523: because g++ is a C++ compiler I assume that it works for C++ too
18:52:54 <ais523> and double-free detection
18:53:12 <ais523> AnotherTest: so why are you criticising me for quoting its documentation at you and its documentation only referencing C?
18:53:23 <olsner> but there may be other reasons it's undecidable, of course
18:53:25 <kmc> olsner: does the standard specify a maximum template recursion depth?
18:53:31 <elliott> olsner: if (foo(n)) { n / 0; }
18:53:34 <kmc> a minimum maximum, if you will
18:53:49 <elliott> olsner: if (see_if_it_halts(tm)) { n / 0; }
18:54:03 <elliott> well, that doesn't really prove undecidability
18:54:27 <olsner> the problem with runtime checks is that C is decidable/not turing complete?
18:55:19 <ais523> runtime checks are normally OK, you can only complain that the program's doing something illegal when it actually does it
18:55:24 <ais523> rather than have to prove totality or the like
18:56:10 <elliott> olsner: oh hmm, I guess that tm one does prove it
18:56:17 <elliott> since if the program doesn't halt it never divides by 0 and is therefore OK
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18:56:27 <elliott> re: TCness, hmm, maybe yeah
18:56:31 <elliott> it's effectively undecidable :)
18:56:37 <AnotherTest> anyway, the only flag that's going to detect the error I made, is going to be one for the preprocessor, not for the actual compiler itself
18:56:49 <ais523> elliott: btw, is dividing by 0 actually UB?
18:56:58 <ais523> it strikes me as the sort of thing C99 liked defining
18:58:15 <ais523> normally it takes a while to find whatever copy of the C standard I have lying around
18:58:23 <ais523> in this case, it was alt+super, type "n1", first result
18:58:28 <ais523> I like it when it does things like that
18:58:55 <ais523> <C11> In both operations, if the value of the second operand is zero, the behavior is undefined.
18:59:19 <olsner> what's the minimum size of a pointer in C? 8 bits?
18:59:43 <ais523> I don't think 0 bits is technically illegal
18:59:54 <ais523> actually, probably is, it'd violate implementation limits
19:00:17 <ais523> the standard doesn't put any lower requirement on it directly, apart from it's a multiple of CHAR_BIT and CHAR_BIT is at least 8
19:00:55 <Deewiant> Probably sizeof has to be nonzero, or something?
19:01:08 <olsner> maybe you could have a single byte of memory, with every pointer pointing to the same byte
19:01:10 <elliott> hmm, is sizeof void valid?
19:01:15 <elliott> and if so, what do we know about its result?
19:01:18 <kmc> are (a+0) and (a+1) required to be distinct for array a
19:01:30 <elliott> olsner: I think you're guaranteed to be able to create more storage than that in C
19:01:34 <ais523> let me check the translation limits
19:01:43 <ais523> elliott: it's not valid, it's trying to take the size of an incomplete type
19:02:11 <ais523> it's the same as writing "struct FILE; printf("%d",(int)sizeof FILE);"
19:02:19 <kmc> foo.c:4:27: warning: invalid application of ‘sizeof’ to a void type [-pedantic]
19:02:27 <kmc> result is 1 on my system
19:02:40 <ais523> yeah, I think gcc used to define sizeof void as 1
19:02:44 <kmc> void is an incomplete type?
19:03:00 <elliott> I guess because (void *) ~ (char *)
19:03:05 <elliott> so you can say sizeof(*voidptr)
19:03:11 <kmc> i guess that means "void a[5]" is also disallowed
19:03:30 <ais523> olsner: for hosted implementations, it appears to be 16 bits
19:03:37 <AnotherTest> You can always do sizeof(pointer type) I htink
19:03:40 <ais523> there's no way to meet the translation limits otherwise
19:03:50 <kmc> and you can declare but not define a function that takes a void parameter?
19:03:52 <ais523> only at least one program has to meet the limits
19:04:02 <ais523> kmc: I think so, actually, unless there's a special reason not to
19:04:10 <ais523> I think for incomplete types
19:04:16 <ais523> you can declare pointers to them, but not the types themselves
19:04:23 <olsner> oh, so you could allow a single special program access to 64kB of memory, while not letting any other programs do that?
19:04:23 <ais523> and ofc it's fine to have a function that takes a void* parameter
19:04:27 <kmc> foo.c:1:12: warning: parameter 1 (‘x’) has void type [enabled by default]
19:04:27 <kmc> foo.c:3:12: error: parameter 1 (‘x’) has incomplete type
19:04:36 <kmc> yeah "pointer to incomplete type" is a complete type
19:04:50 <kmc> this is like the foundation of abstract data in C :D
19:05:23 <kmc> is there a way to write "pointer to function of unspecified type"
19:05:27 <ais523> olsner: well I don't see anything here that guarantees that, in general, sizeof(char*) is positive
19:05:39 <elliott> ais523: sizeof returns size_t, right?
19:05:42 <elliott> or do you mean it could be0
19:05:46 <ais523> kmc: no, sadly; void(*)() works in practice, because it's freely interconvertible with other sorts of function pointer
19:05:50 <ais523> as long as you don't try to execute it
19:05:53 <ais523> elliott: I mean it could be 0
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19:06:00 <ais523> at least, I can't see anything actually forbidding that
19:06:13 <ais523> admittedly such an implementation would be kind-of useless in practice
19:06:43 <ais523> you could probably only implement it with one of those compilers that looks for #error directives, and if it doesn't see any, prints "Diagnostic!" and returns EXIT_SUCCESS, with no other side effects
19:06:56 <ais523> (this is infamous for being a strictly conforming C implementation)
19:07:09 <kmc> does it have to print "Diagnostic!"
19:07:20 <ais523> well, it has to print /a/ diagnostic
19:07:32 <ais523> *in case of constrant violations
19:07:43 <ais523> some UB, the compiler is responsible for warning about
19:08:07 <ais523> (this is what gcc's -pedantic is for; it's for warning about UB that it's its duty to detect and warning about, but that the gcc devs feel isn't a problem in practice)
19:08:29 <ais523> and it's much easier to print a very generic diagnostic
19:08:33 <ais523> than to work out which need to be printed
19:08:55 <olsner> ds9k's C compiler could have a "fast compile" mode that does exactly that
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19:09:15 <elliott> ais523: the diagnostic is exiting with status 0, obviously
19:09:27 <elliott> can it use that diagnostic for #error, too?
19:09:35 <olsner> hmm, does it have to *print* a diagnostic?
19:09:48 <ais523> elliott: #error is the only thing that has to make the compiler fail
19:09:59 <ais523> whereas it has to succeed on strictly conforming programs
19:10:15 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's entirely clear that success and failure states have to be distinguishable, but most people assume that they do
19:10:46 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/aKgb
19:11:22 <elliott> ais523: and it's not just UB to use #error or anything?
19:11:25 <elliott> I guess that would be weird
19:11:39 <ais523> nope, #error is the one special case where the program has to absolutely be rejected
19:12:04 <ais523> I remember Borland C++ only ever did "Fatal" and halt the compilation immediately, rather than "Error" and keep going, upon a missing input file, or a #error directive
19:12:20 <ais523> (that is, "keep going" in the make -k sense)
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20:09:11 <fizzie> "A preprocessing directive of the form # error pp-tokens_opt new-line causes the implementation to produce a diagnostic message that includes the specified sequence of preprocessing tokens."
20:09:37 <fizzie> So it can't be just a generic "Diagnostic!". (Though you could argue what "produce" means.)
20:09:51 <elliott> so you need an ASCII output or whatever to compile C? :/
20:10:27 <Deewiant> You need to be able to output what you're able to take as input.
20:10:28 <zzo38> But what if the program is encoded with EBCDIC?
20:10:36 <fizzie> I think it still counts as "producing" if you encode the tokens in some reversible way.
20:10:57 <fizzie> (As a matter of personal opinion, that is.)
20:11:37 <elliott> do you mean, just because of that thing
20:11:39 <elliott> or because of something else
20:11:57 <Deewiant> Isn't that sufficient? Combined with the fact that strings are pp-tokens.
20:12:08 <fizzie> I don't know where ais523's comment about "has to absolutely be rejected" came from; I don't see anything in at least this section saying it needs to do anything else than produce the diagnostic, much like any constraint violation.
20:12:15 <zzo38> I made a program which encodes floating point numbers as six bytes; is that good enough?
20:14:27 <kmc> is there any judiciary body which has the authority to rule on compliance with the C spec?
20:16:40 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know, but I don't like all of the changes they made to the new one. Does ISO do compliance? Will Open Group do?
20:17:08 <olsner> kmc: you mean besides #esoteric?
20:18:30 <zzo38> olsner: O, yes, I forgot that one.
20:20:54 <fizzie> For some reason my mouse wheel occasionally stops working in Google Maps.
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20:27:06 <fizzie> Well, that's stupid. I used to have -- in fact, still have -- a printscreen keybinding in XMonad to run "gnome-screenshot -i", the interactive mode; but something else has walked all over that and made print-screen just take a full-all-screens screenshot and dump it in ~ with a default timestamp-based name.
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20:30:29 <zzo38> Does Linux console do anything with print screen key?
20:30:49 <fizzie> I don't think it does anything special.
20:31:08 <fizzie> If you don't count producing some kind of a key code.
20:45:44 <zzo38> I think Linux does use System Request, though.
20:47:08 <sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
20:47:13 <sgeo_> The magic SysRq key is a key combination understood by the Linux kernel, which allows the user to perform various low-level commands regardless of the system's state. It is often used to recover from freezes, or to reboot a computer without corrupting the filesystem.[1]
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20:55:54 <lambdabot> GreyKnight asked 5h 35m 41s ago: "did you know maps used to have east up" You mean back in the dwarves' day??
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21:52:57 <coppro> Arc_Koen: yes. yes it was
21:53:04 <coppro> also, what does "Arc" stand for?
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21:53:29 <Bike> can't it just mean "arc"
21:53:30 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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21:53:58 <Bike> @tell elliott it did indeed h
21:55:26 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:55:31 <lambdabot> Bike said 1m 32s ago: it did indeed h
22:03:51 <zzo38> The winter solstice is in approx. 13 hours from now
22:05:16 <kmc> the mayans warned us
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22:06:05 -!- aloril has joined.
22:06:14 <zzo38> Warned you of what? The solstice?
22:07:01 <fizzie> It has been December 21st for six minutes or so here now.
22:07:27 <zzo38> Even though it is, that doesn't make it the winder solstice yet.
22:07:31 <Bike> i hope that mayans have big parties planned to celebrate the b'ak'tun slash mock americans
22:07:44 <kmc> 'It is important to note that Earth does not move at a constant speed in its elliptical orbit. Therefore the seasons are not of equal length: the times taken for the sun to move from the vernal equinox to the summer solstice, to the autumnal equinox, to the winter solstice, and back to the vernal equinox are roughly 92.8, 93.6, 89.8 and 89.0 days respectively.'
22:07:49 <kmc> hmm, i had no idea
22:08:08 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> The winter solstice is in approx. 13 hours from now <kmc> the mayans warned us <zzo38> Warned you of what? The solstice? <kmc> yes
22:08:12 <HackEgo> 879) <zzo38> The winter solstice is in approx. 13 hours from now <kmc> the mayans warned us <zzo38> Warned you of what? The solstice? <kmc> yes
22:08:49 <Bike> «Scenarios suggested for the end of the world include the arrival of the next solar maximum, an interaction between Earth and the black hole at the center of the galaxy,[9] or Earth's collision with a planet called Nibiru.» wow, i didn't realize they were going to be things that would be so easy to see coming
22:09:17 <kmc> what about neutrinos from the sun causing the earth's core to become superheated
22:09:18 <zzo38> Even disregarding the different speeds, it still is not perfectly aligned with the calendar, which is why we have leap years.
22:09:40 <Bike> kmc: is that from some movie
22:10:44 <kmc> "President Wilson is later killed by a megatsunami that sends the aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy crashing into the White House"
22:10:46 <Bike> «on 13 August 3113 BC the Earth began a passage through a "galactic synchronization beam" that emanated from the center of our galaxy» i've been missing out
22:10:58 <oerjan> <Bike> can't it just mean "arc" <-- no it needs to be something archetypical
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22:11:05 <kmc> that is a thing that happens in the film
22:11:17 <Bike> wait, is this that 2012 movie?
22:11:35 <Bike> i remember seeing the little clip about einstein saying the continents would... come... loose? something appropriately insane
22:11:36 <kmc> shit-tons of them
22:11:59 <coppro> my only regret will be having bonitis
22:12:12 <kmc> my only regret is that i have no regrets
22:13:02 <Bike> «the 2012 date has been loosely tied to the long-running concept of the Photon Belt, which predicts a form of interaction between Earth and Alcyone, the largest star of the Pleiades cluster.[120] Critics have argued that photons cannot form belts»
22:13:06 <kmc> maybe this end of the world business is a good excuse to buy alcohol
22:13:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/img_14/solsticehoroscope.png
22:13:59 <Bike> « there is an immense belt of photons orbiting around the Pleiades. According to some New Age beliefs, Earth will pass through this belt of photons, resulting either in humanity's elevation to a higher plane of existence, the end of the world, or both»
22:14:09 <olsner> the photons' toolmaking skills are not likely to be up to making belts
22:14:14 <Bike> seriously you could just, look outside? notice the pleiades are way the fuck over there
22:14:27 <kmc> i love the use of "critics have argued" to describe basic facts about the world
22:14:31 <Bike> zzo38: how does one read this?
22:15:08 <Bike> «Some media outlets have tied the fact that the red supergiant star Betelgeuse will undergo a supernova at some point in the future to the 2012 phenomenon.[122] However, while Betelgeuse is certainly in the final stages of its life, and will die as a supernova, there is no way to predict the timing of the event to within 100,000 years» wikipedia's really good as a straight man, really.
22:15:37 <zzo38> Bike: The circle shows the ecliplic longitude of the object represented there.
22:15:59 <Fiora> "On 21 December 2011, the Maya town of Tapachula in Chiapas activated an eight-foot digital clock counting down the days until the end of b'ak'tun 13, while in Izapa, a nearby archaeological site, Maya priests burned incense and prayed." marketing_to_tourists.gif
22:16:05 <zzo38> The actual distance differs but they are shown all on one circle; if you included the distance, then it won't fit on the page, or will be impossible to read.
22:16:15 <Bike> Fiora: now that's what i'm talking about.
22:16:26 <kmc> is that an actual gif
22:16:41 <Bike> zzo38: I know my astrological sign. How do I get this chart to tell me my soulmate's favorite band?
22:16:46 <zzo38> It is the b'ak'tun 13, though, even if it is not the end of the world.
22:16:48 <Fiora> (un)fortunately no? XD
22:17:14 <zzo38> Bike: It probably can't, unless you put your soulmate's favorite band on there.
22:17:18 <Bike> it's pretty sad how people don't realize that the mayans didn't just suddenly disappear
22:18:34 <Bike> "The molecules, these being iron, phosphorus, calcium, copper, nitrogen, carbon, starch, etc., etc., would be completely modified due to this radiation. This means that you will see a change in matter." this photon belt stuff is so intriguing
22:19:01 <zzo38> Bike: And are you sure of your astrological sign? For the same reason as leap year, the sun sign won't be exactly the same calendar date every year.
22:19:43 <Bike> sure enough to pay astrologists money!
22:20:30 <zzo38> You can figure it out for free using various computer programs; you do not have to pay.
22:21:01 <Bike> I think you're missing out on a big market for zzo38computer here, man.
22:21:41 <zzo38> If you want me to mail you a copy, then of course I will charge you for that. But other than that, I won't.
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22:24:13 <zzo38> For example, the coordinates for the winter solstice (in the northern hemisphere) will be 0 Capricorn, regardless of the date it occurs. This year, it is 11:11 AM GMT on December 21
22:24:30 <zzo38> (As can be seen easily by the horoscope, if you know how to read it)
22:24:37 <Bike> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~noelh/index.htm
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22:43:00 <Arc_Koen> coppro: it means "bow" in french
22:43:22 <Arc_Koen> I use to have "arc-en-ciel", which is french for rainbow, as my nick
22:44:07 <zzo38> My brother mentioned, it is like the Y2K; the Mayans did not write their calendar up to 13.0.0.0.0 as we have not programmed our computer up to 2000, for example.
22:44:17 <coppro> Arc_Koen: ... it doesn't mean "bow"
22:44:20 <zzo38> And people thought also of Y2K, that the world will end.
22:44:47 <coppro> "arc-en-ciel" translates literally to "arch in sky"
22:45:07 <Bike> bow, arch, what's the diff
22:45:22 <Arc_Koen> I've always thought of it as "arc" from "arc de cercle"
22:45:37 <oerjan> that's actually "triumfbuen" in norwegian, btw
22:45:42 <coppro> Arc_Koen: an arc is the correct English term as well
22:45:44 <Bike> we call those arcs here in amurrica, arc_koen
22:45:54 <oerjan> (where bue means both bow and arch)
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22:46:09 <coppro> Arc_Koen: I was more taken aback by the lack of a military rank
22:46:15 <coppro> Arc_Koen: also, continuum *is* a movie
22:46:47 <oerjan> zzo38: heh i recently explained it to a friend in a similar way
22:46:55 <Arc_Koen> well you can take "arc" to be the rank from the clone army in star wars
22:47:09 <Arc_Koen> (it's the reason I kept it that way)
22:47:16 <Arc_Koen> but yeah, continuum was great :)
22:47:37 <Arc_Koen> though I kinda dislike that habit they have to mess with the timeline with no effect
22:47:37 <Bike> i'm imagining mayan rock-circle based computers short circuiting.
22:47:53 <Arc_Koen> I mean, the stargate activated in a boat while nobody knew what it was, in 1939??
22:48:00 <Arc_Koen> that's gotta change the way the stargate program went
22:49:03 <coppro> Arc_Koen: I could believe that it didn't much
22:49:51 <Arc_Koen> and Mitchell left in the past? what if he encounters a girl and have children and stuff
22:52:08 <elliott> blah blah butterfly effect blah blah
22:56:30 <Arc_Koen> elliott: I don't think there's such a thing as the butterfly effect when talking about ~80 ans
22:57:39 <olsner> besides, butterflies don't live that long
23:01:16 * elliott isn't sure what Arc_Koen means.
23:03:28 <olsner> arc probably just means arc, not sure about the "koen" part
23:09:19 <Phantom_Hoover> what's with torrents of tv shows that have random swings in quality
23:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean between seasons i can get, but the farscape torrent i was using went from mediocre resolution to postcard-sized about 3 episodes into season 3
23:14:02 <kmc> perhaps it is a biting commentary on the sensory decline which must accompany us all in our inexorable march toward the grave
23:24:13 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: i've read a theory about time travel/butterfly effect which is particularly sensitive - by considering the exact timing of human sperm cells, you can argue that after a very short while, essentially _no one_ will be born who was born in the previous timeline.
23:25:00 <oerjan> not much longer than 9 months :P
23:25:15 <Arc_Koen> for instance, if your time-travel takes place in america, then how long before it affects asia?
23:25:20 <oerjan> you just need timings to be a fraction of a second off
23:26:09 <oerjan> hm i guess it might not spread as fast in space...
23:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> the effect of radiation on the upper atmosphere should be enough
23:28:04 <oerjan> (i didn't mean _outer_ space in case that was unclear, just as opposed to time)
23:28:40 <Arc_Koen> today: the speed of butterflies in vacuum
23:29:04 <kmc> perhaps the exact subset of genes you get from your father is not so important though
23:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> which sperm cell fertilises an egg also affects the entire embryological development process
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23:33:21 <oerjan> insane idea: explaining the fermi paradox by saying that time travel butterfly effects destroy any civilization by turning their timeline into a paradoxal chaos as soon as it becomes advanced enough to observe signs of another similar civilization, as a kind of interstellar infection
23:33:54 <kmc> dazed and confused, but trying to continue
23:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> mostly because the necessary time travel is quite absent
23:34:02 <oerjan> STOP THOSE EXOPLANET SEARCHES NOW
23:34:24 <elliott> clearly any civilisation ends as soon as it discovers time travel
23:34:31 <elliott> because some joker goes back and fucks up everything
23:34:40 <elliott> this implies time travel is somehow spatially local I guess
23:34:49 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, only one planet needs to actually discover time travel... the others are destroyed just by observing the effects
23:34:52 <elliott> hm maybe that can actually be true? for a certain value of spatially
23:35:01 <elliott> because information propagates slowly enough or something
23:35:15 <coppro> elliott: the problem with time travel is it also needs to include space travel
23:35:25 <coppro> if I go back six months odds are good I will be suffocating
23:35:40 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: that's pretty slow
23:35:43 <elliott> if you take large enough disatnces
23:36:06 <Bike> man, we're gonna be like, the last civilization to bite it? that's so uncool.
23:36:09 <Phantom_Hoover> from what you've said the observations would still be causal?
23:36:20 <elliott> so maybe at a long enough distance the "interference" is low enough that if someone goes back in time in such a way that the present changes, the whole present universe doesn't get wiped over
23:36:24 <elliott> just part of it and it sort of ripples out
23:36:28 * elliott pseudoscientist extraordinaire
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23:37:59 <Jafet> I am the ghost of time travel past. Be saved and repent!
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23:38:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but you are observing another planet whose timeline is completely chaotic and constantly modifying itself by paradox - which causes your own timeline to do the same from that point on
23:38:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, but that's using the hopelessly-inconsistent doctor who model of time travel
23:39:00 <elliott> that works with my model. sor tof.
23:39:16 <elliott> any paradox would be spatially localised and ripple out somehow!!
23:39:43 <Bike> you should also make them temporally localised and ripply, to get the full time travel movie effect.
23:42:20 <zzo38> Once I read in some book, ask the question: If you were out of the universe and traveled into five minutes ahead, what would happen? I thought of the same answer they have, but I also think they are wrong.
23:42:50 <Bike> zzo38, are you French?
23:43:24 <oerjan> afair he's canadian and not even a french-canadian
23:43:51 <HackEgo> 377) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
23:43:53 <zzo38> elliott: You will be in outer space, with no air to breathe.
23:44:11 <elliott> zzo38: what does "out of the universe" mean?
23:44:12 <Bike> He just reminds me of a person I know elsewhere. I was wondering if the typing style was related to a common language or something.
23:44:25 <oerjan> elliott: i should point out that was almost certainly not why i was filled with mystery, as i knew he was canadian before then. i think.
23:44:28 <elliott> I believe zzo38 is a native English speaker?
23:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> that it and english are somewhat mutually intelligible is but a happy coincidence
23:45:06 <Bike> sometimes i want to ask people why they write the way they do, but it would probably be very rude for me to do so in most cases
23:45:12 <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English.
23:45:20 <Bike> so, thanks for mostly annihilating that fear there, phantom_hoover
23:45:34 <zzo38> Bike: I don't care; I think you should ask a question if you want to learn.
23:47:26 <Bike> i feel i should mention that it's actually more that you're the only person i've seen using the AGPL than any writing quirks
23:49:30 <Bike> yes, exactly, this other person does the same sort of thing
23:50:30 <HackEgo> 285) <zzo38> I think I managed to make Stack Overflow work on gopher, now.
23:50:33 <HackEgo> 238) <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons. \ 710) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it i
23:50:41 <HackEgo> 238) <zzo38> If you want to use TeX formats invented by Christians, use Plain TeX. However, I do not think the religion of its author is a good way to decide what to use. I decide to use Plain TeX for its own reasons.
23:50:48 <Bike> that's amazing
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23:51:29 <quintopia> `addquote <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English.
23:51:33 <HackEgo> 880) <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English.
23:51:45 <quintopia> canadian english is my favorite language
23:51:46 <zzo38> Bike: What other person, and who does the same sort of things as what?
23:52:09 <Bike> i don't actually know anything about canadian English dialects, now that I think about it. of course i barely know anything about my own dialect
23:53:18 <Bike> zzo38: uses the AGPL, sometimes uses obscure and old protocols instead of newer ones because they feel those protocols are better, i don't know how to describe it more
23:53:39 <Bike> @google canadian english
23:53:41 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_English
23:53:41 <lambdabot> Title: Canadian English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:54:06 <fizzie> Canadian English, is that like an euphemism for something nasty?
23:54:11 <Bike> "Canadianisms"
23:54:24 <Bike> wow, "yooper dialect"
23:55:15 <olsner> o.O "The Yooper dialect is also influenced by the Finnish language"
23:55:43 <Bike> it's not that surprising, a lot of the northern US is descended from scandinavians
23:56:00 <Bike> well, old northwest, would probably be more exact... i dunno.
23:56:18 <fizzie> `run words --eng-all --french --finnish 20 # a bit like this?
23:56:25 <HackEgo> pcquo nimaeleal thatt bab egresceroo ethomograal liilta etgressans mekavanasisuita theger diakiireältä ostacile conficagert yegastissa yaumast moit derdinertu red tent lakathintonarin
23:56:52 <fizzie> Red tent lakathintonarin.
23:57:04 <Bike> what did that do
23:57:09 <oerjan> ye emigrant finn, sitting in his little red tent by Lakathintonarin
23:57:20 <fizzie> Interpolated the character n-grams.
23:57:58 <fizzie> `run words --finnish --swedish # this is what they speak in Åland
23:58:01 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: apparently, but i'm mostly giggling childishly at "yooper"
23:58:02 <Phantom_Hoover> (i learnt so much worthless trivia about northern michigan from american gods
23:58:16 <fizzie> `run words --finnish --swedish 15 # a bit more please
23:58:18 <HackEgo> pella leptiserva vahtavissa felkonekdomma alsagna sträkkää utkistualist kaksfullenaan boremiera slum sinkerne lyhyinäs ska palteiskonte strumiljettamagin
23:58:23 <Phantom_Hoover> they have pasties there apparently, you'd fit right in there Bike
23:58:40 <Bike> I am suave and popular.
23:58:55 <olsner> fizzie: last time I checked, they just speak swedish there
23:59:09 <olsner> it doesn't even sound finnish
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00:00:16 <elliott> HAPPY UTC APOCALYPSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:00:24 <fizzie> olsner: Is it finlandssvenska, though?
00:00:42 <fizzie> They speak that here on the cost a lot.
00:00:58 <elliott> i don't get it why are you guys still alive
00:01:10 <olsner> sounds more like an arbitrary northern swedish dialect
00:01:11 <fizzie> Maybe Åland counts as real Swedish since they're monolingual IIRC.
00:03:05 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Åland_Swedish says "generally considered to be a variant of eastern swedish"
00:03:17 <fizzie> There were two people speaking finlandssvenska in the train, and they talked about their friend who was just 14 years old, but already used something that contextually sounded like a drug, but what they called "Eemeli".
00:03:43 <fizzie> I don't know what it was all about.
00:04:12 <olsner> could be referring to a girl called Emelie
00:04:43 <fizzie> I think that bit was in Finnish. It's a Finnish male name.
00:05:48 <fizzie> There was also a 50-something old guy who said he's no good at fistfights, so he'd like to get a gun, because he's good at shooting people. He was going to Turku to meet his friend Herkko, who was currently in court; when Herkko got out they were going to drink away his money.
00:06:17 <Bike> and you didn't get his number?
00:06:32 <fizzie> Also, he had just left his wife and kids without letting them know except by leaving a letter, and he was going to send out the divorce papers from Turku.
00:07:02 <fizzie> Someone was going to hit concrete from the fifth floor, too. That part was a bit unclear.
00:07:13 <fizzie> To someone at the other end of a telephone call.
00:07:34 <fizzie> The stories are I suppose the best thing about public transportation.
00:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> public transportation is unfortunately extortionate and dull
00:09:19 <olsner> boring and dull until you try to get off the train and have to discover that the door handle is on the outside
00:09:21 <fizzie> Admittedly it's predominantly dull in Finland too. It's not a thing that is done that you would speak to any stranger. (Which I like, but then again I am a Finn too.)
00:10:12 <fizzie> At most you might grumble something like "that's my stop" when you're in the window seat, want to get out, and the other person isn't getting the hint from your angry scowl.
00:10:37 <olsner> oh, what a verbose way to get off a train
00:10:53 <fizzie> (Because the angry scowl is naturally the default setting.)
00:11:59 <olsner> I'd expect the escalation order to be something more like subtle look -> angry look -> knife fight
00:12:03 <elliott> fizzie: q: are all finns depressed or does it just look that way
00:13:21 <olsner> but with a gun there would be no blood on your hands
00:14:02 <Bike> my favorite public transport experience was seeing a ninety year old lady with a t-shirt reading "FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING FUCKERS". no word on her knife fight capacity, though
00:14:08 <fizzie> At night, in the grill fast-food stand queue.
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00:15:34 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, just stick your hands in the blood and spread it around a bit
00:15:44 <kmc> Bike: where was it?
00:15:47 <zzo38> What is your Dungeons&Dragons character's father's surname?
00:16:00 <kmc> there are lots of videos on YouTube of fights on MUNI
00:16:06 <kmc> don't know of any knife fights though
00:16:10 <Bike> kmc: portland's MAX thingie
00:16:27 <Bike> so, perhaps not that surprising
00:16:31 <fizzie> Hey, I've been in Portland's MAX thingie.
00:16:42 <fizzie> All I saw were young men in tight jeans.
00:16:57 <kmc> mmm light rail
00:16:59 <Bike> i was even traveling with such a young man at the time, can you believe it
00:17:28 <kmc> can you dig it daddy-o
00:17:38 <Bike> we were practicing our beat poetry
00:18:12 <fizzie> Oh, except! An oldish lady (65+?) bought me a ticket, because I was from Finland and she had been married to a Swedish guy like 30 years ago.
00:18:55 <fizzie> (I was having a bit of a trouble with the ticket-selling machine. And so did others using it, so I suppose it was kind of wonky.)
00:19:24 <fizzie> I can't remember the name of her (late? ex?) husband, but it was some really prototypically Swedish name.
00:19:34 <fizzie> I think it was a two-parter.
00:21:58 <fizzie> Sundström. (Okay, not really a two-parter, but a compound anyway.)
00:25:10 <kmc> hans moleman
00:28:01 <fizzie> 1909 Sundströms living in Finland.
00:29:07 <kmc> sundström sounds like a unit of deadly radiation
00:29:15 <kmc> 1909 sundströms would certainly be fatal
00:37:55 <fizzie> Yeah, the *yearly* limit is like 220 millisundströms, right?
00:39:30 <quintopia> what's the conversion factor for sundströms to roentgens?
00:39:57 <elliott> `frink sundström -> roentgen
00:40:07 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "sundström". \ Unconvertable expression: \ sundström (undefined symbol) -> 129/500000 (exactly 2.58e-4) s kg^-1 A (unknown unit type)
00:40:40 <Bike> second-amperes per kilogram. i can dig it.
00:41:12 <quintopia> second amperes is coulombs, isnt it
00:41:41 <Bike> yeah but then you lose the ordering
00:42:17 <Bike> oh, apparently that's actually what roentgens are. silly me.
00:43:49 <quintopia> so irradiation is a measure of charge density per unit mass
00:44:15 <quintopia> makes sense but its still somewhat surprising, since it was expecting a more traditional measure of energy
01:01:55 <zzo38> What things might be measure in square seconds? What might be measured in square hertz?
01:02:33 <Bike> square hertz is pretty useful for acceleration
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01:03:55 <zzo38> What units of angular measurement are there?
01:06:41 <quintopia> square arcseconds can be used to measure "solid angle" which corresponds the an area / subset of s^2
01:07:28 <zzo38> I know of radians, degrees, grads, turns, brads, arcminutes, arcseconds, sidereal hours, astrological signs, right angles, compass directions, clocks, and probably some more I missed.
01:07:54 <zzo38> quintopia: O, I didn't know that! Can you have cubic radians?
01:10:23 <zzo38> What is measured with cubic radians per square ampere?
01:10:25 <quintopia> most of the later ones you listed are special cases of the first ones
01:11:16 <quintopia> well, cubic radians measures the volume of an intercepted "arc" of S^3
01:11:41 <quintopia> which means it is most useful in 4D geomtery
01:11:45 <zzo38> quintopia: Well, yes they are often given by part and smaller parts, degrees/arcminutes/arcseconds, or sidereal hours/minutes/seconds, or degree/sign, like how with length you might have feet/inches.
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01:12:29 <quintopia> a square ampere sounds meaningless to me
01:12:45 <zzo38> Can a square ohm be used for anything?
01:13:08 <Bike> aren't there square ohms in the definition of farads or something
01:13:15 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know.
01:13:38 <quintopia> ohms are v/a, so it would be square volts per square ampere and again i cant see what a square ampere could mean physically
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01:14:43 <quintopia> yes there is square amperes in farad definitions
01:15:48 <Bike> quartic-second-square-amperes per kilogram-square-meters, i think you mean!
01:16:25 <quintopia> apparently because voltss is define in terms of amps and ohms in defined in terms of both
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03:05:36 <shachaf> You've upset the natural order of things.
03:14:07 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Can I do your job now?
03:14:57 <shachaf> Come to think of it I'm not sure what Phantom_Hoover's job is.
03:15:16 <elliott> it involves bricks; brains
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03:24:03 <Arc_Koen> I'd be more than happy to eat one or two
03:27:20 <Bike> You get it from eating brains. Does that count?
03:27:42 <Arc_Koen> well i don't see what else you would have me do with brains, so yes
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03:38:09 <Fiora> I don't have the list of people to ping though
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03:38:42 <monqy> the list is sgeo (duh), shachaf (why else would he care about it so much?), and that's about it.
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03:41:07 <elliott> Fiora: NEVER FORGET to ping monqy
03:41:39 <monqy> Fiora: I didn't forget myself, but that reminds me I did forget elliott
03:41:54 <Bike> just ping everybody in the channel to be safe.
03:41:57 <Bike> less racist that way anyhow
03:42:05 <elliott> Fiora: no monqy is lying. he's just shy. ping monqy. he's only saying me because he wants to be kind. i don't need kindness
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03:42:22 <shachaf> Fiora: I'm not on the list.
03:42:51 <zzo38> Do you need to make up a new list?
03:42:55 <Bike> elliot is a man and a half. ping him one and a half times.
03:43:02 <Fiora> are you calling him fat
03:43:20 <elliott> (ps i am like the polar opposite of fat)
03:43:29 <Bike> of course there's actually an elliot on freenode.
03:44:03 <Bike> and no i was not calling him fat gosh
03:44:06 <Bike> just thick and chainsawful
03:44:09 <Fiora> I was teasing you bike
03:44:29 <Bike> I don't think I can deal with this new phase of Fiora, Master Troller.
03:44:31 -!- Bike has left.
03:44:46 <shachaf> (Bike reads the logs, right?)
03:45:02 <elliott> @ask Bike u mad????????? (im sorry. im really sorry)
03:45:09 <elliott> @ask Bike i couldnt not please forgive me
03:45:30 <shachaf> Fiora is the same person as Bike as far as I'm aware.
03:46:03 <monqy> you know the punishment for that sort of transgression!!!
03:46:06 <Fiora> I am not actually the same person <_<;
03:46:27 <elliott> monqy: dont you mean the privilege
03:46:47 <HackEgo> 25) <Deewiant> ehird: There is no h in "honour"
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03:47:16 <shachaf> elliott: i bet you think honor is all about u
03:47:21 <monqy> Bike: you should type in @clear-messages↵
03:47:23 <elliott> Bike: you can't just leave for two minutes
03:47:35 <Fiora> nooo don't make him leave again
03:47:50 <Bike> @clear-messages↵
03:47:57 <Bike> ok what do I win
03:47:58 <lambdabot> Bike: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:48:16 <Bike> Well fuck, if you don't specify without the ↵ how am I supposed to know!
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03:48:54 <shachaf> monqy: did you learn indexed lenses yet
03:49:08 <monqy> the dumb ones???????
03:49:20 <monqy> wasnt i supposed to be learning semisymmetric lenses!!!
03:49:43 <shachaf> monqy: semisymmetric lenses are "in master" now
03:50:27 <shachaf> monqy: the best part about semisymmetric isos?
03:50:28 <monqy> i hear unsafecoerce is "in master" too
03:50:36 <Bike> @tell elliot fucking fuck goddamn fuck fuckdouche fuckfuckfuckertyfuck FUCK
03:51:11 <Bike> We've already been over my feud with elliot.
03:51:12 <monqy> Bike: i told you to @clear-messages↵ but you didn't listen did you!!!
03:51:19 <shachaf> Bike: That was just uncalled for.
03:51:24 <Bike> @clear-messages↵
03:51:28 <shachaf> we don't say "goddamn" in here!!!!!
03:51:39 <Bike> is "fuckerty" ok
04:08:57 <sgeo_> I was too busy hanging out with friends after graduating to do my job
04:13:28 <Fiora> and it was a one page update
04:13:30 <Fiora> with like 5 lines of text
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06:16:42 <shachaf> `run echo unsafePerformApocalypse | zalgo
06:16:44 <HackEgo> u̞n̐s̻a̹fͫe͓P̡e͟rͩf͓o͕rͣm͑A̹pͦo̠c̭a͇l̕y̓p̊s͟e͙ \ ̺
06:41:37 <oklofok> `run echo unsafePerformApocalypse | zalgo
06:41:39 <HackEgo> uͪnͅs̓a͞f̽e͏P͛ẻr̭f͍o̐r̛m̡A̶p̤òc̥a̛lͧy̡p̀ṣe̓ \ ͒
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08:09:19 <Bike> elliot: update
08:20:28 <elliott> thanks - elliot, my long-lost twousin
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10:42:31 <zzo38> Do you think you can predict the end of the world by the horoscope? I think it is possible, although you need actual observation too. I can explain how, in case you don't know.
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10:47:19 <zzo38> elliott: I don't think so. I explained what I think was actually happening with the Mayan calendar.
10:49:02 <zzo38> Did you agree with what my idea was?
10:49:43 <monqy> what was your idea ?
10:50:52 <zzo38> About the similarity to the Y2K thinking everything would break?
10:51:43 <zzo38> Because, they didn't program the computer to go up to 2000, like the Mayans did not write their calendar all the way up to 13.0.0.0.0 (probably because they didn't want to write forever, or something like that)
10:55:14 <Nisstyre-laptop> zzo38: I think they made up some bogus religious reason for the cyclic calendar
10:56:31 <fizzie> It seems that some piece of software has stopped including plaintext versions of emails any longer.
10:58:32 <fizzie> All the stuff I get from the university officialdom nowadays is a non-multipart message with a Content-type: text/html body that always has this short boilerplate prefix of http://sprunge.us/bNja before any content.
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11:02:44 <Deewiant> fizzie: I get multiparts with a text/plain version for ICS-internal stuff.
11:05:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay, that might be still true. But most of the stuff I get from "Aalto" in general seems to be that kind of stuff.
11:06:05 <fizzie> (I use the Outlook Web App to respond to those; should perhaps check what it sends out.)
11:06:17 <Deewiant> fizzie: The latest "Aalto Info" (20.12.) was multipart and I don't think I really get any other general Aalto-stuff.
11:07:18 <fizzie> That's probably sent from some kind of a system. I meant more emails from people working in an administrative role.
11:07:58 <fizzie> Like I've gotten a couple of emails from a "Planning Officer / Student Services" recently; the latest was from where I quoted that mess.
11:08:00 <Deewiant> Right; I don't really get anything like that except for ICS, I think.
11:10:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: Also some messages from the ICS department HR coordinator (Stefan). Though this is a forward, so maybe I should blame the original author.
11:11:11 <fizzie> "Subject: FW: Terveystalo - Virtaa voimavararyhmästä Arabia - syksy 2012" of Aug 30; I don't know who all this was sent to.
11:15:35 <fizzie> "List price: $14.99; Price: $0.01; You save: $14.98 (100%)" Amazon certainly has some good deals.
11:18:17 <fizzie> "$0.01 + $4.99 shipping" oh.
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11:38:43 <fizzie> The "kevät 2012" version I got via staff@ics.hut.fi is, but the "syksy 2012" that's in my @aalto.fi address is not.
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11:40:58 <fizzie> Heh, apparently they need a nickname for our new offices in the other building.
11:41:04 <fizzie> (I did mention our group is moving?)
11:41:28 <FreeFull> They should name them the cheese shop
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11:44:05 <GreyKnight> well played Google: http://www.google.co.uk/logos/2012/end_of_the_mayan_calendar-993005-hp.jpg
11:44:06 <lambdabot> GreyKnight: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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11:55:29 <fizzie> Deewiant: To Aalto ELEC, Department of Signal Processing and Acoustics.
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11:56:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: Mikko Kurimo, our group leader, got a professorship from there, so we'll all follow him there.
11:56:40 <GreyKnight> <ais523> it's a pity the DS9K doesn't actually exist
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11:58:23 <fizzie> The acoustics lab people are spread out all around the building, so they've got these names for all the different locations where they have offices; there's Moscow (their original 2nd floor E wing place), Chechnya (below it), Siberia (far out in the I wing), and Ural (high up in 4th floor in the G wing).
11:58:45 <fizzie> Our new offices are 3rd floor in the I wing, immediately above Siberia.
11:58:52 <fizzie> In the "Sähkö" building.
11:59:02 <fizzie> "Some suggestions so far by the professors include: Upper Siberia, Vladivostok and Mongolia."
12:00:06 <GreyKnight> `addquote <fizzie> Out new offices are [...] immediately above Siberia
12:00:13 <HackEgo> 881) <fizzie> Out new offices are [...] immediately above Siberia
12:00:32 * oerjan swats GreyKnight for typoing while copying and pasting -----###
12:00:49 <fizzie> (Man, that looks like a regex.)
12:01:51 <oerjan> it's past the solstice and the world's still here I WANT MY MONEY BACK DAMMIT
12:03:41 <fizzie> Gnerp. I need to do this travel claim, and the project selection drop-down box has 6169 entries.
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12:06:38 <GreyKnight> oerjan: The true Mayan apocalypse is the one in your heart
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12:08:03 * oerjan hits GreyKnight with the saucepan ===\__/
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12:09:17 <greyknight> hey the DS9K has a website: http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/prod/dialspace/town/green/gfd34/art/
12:13:08 <oerjan> <olsner> but with a gun there would be no blood on your hands <-- i don't think that applies when you're fighting the person in the neighboring train seat hth
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12:15:04 <oerjan> <zzo38> What is your Dungeons&Dragons character's father's surname?
12:15:23 <oerjan> Nonexistent. James Nonexistent.
12:16:36 <GreyKnight> I don't have an ongoing game at the minute. I did but I was sick for a while and had to drop out
12:19:25 <oerjan> <Bike> square hertz is pretty useful for acceleration <-- if you accelerate too much, you hit the square, which hertz
12:20:10 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you measure the frequency of a square wave in square Hertz?
12:20:53 <oerjan> nah that's just a whole new dimension of pain
12:29:48 <oerjan> <shachaf> we don't say "goddamn" in here!!!!! <-- indeed it freaks out ais523
12:31:49 <oerjan> `addquote <zzo38> Did you agree with what my idea was? <elliott> absolutely <monqy> what was your idea ? <elliott> that was my next question
12:31:52 <HackEgo> 881) <zzo38> Did you agree with what my idea was? <elliott> absolutely <monqy> what was your idea ? <elliott> that was my next question
12:32:07 <elliott> oerjan: happy non-apocalypse
12:32:25 <GreyKnight> seeing as it's the end of the world, I phoned the bank and told them to stick their mortage payments up their jacksie B-)
12:32:31 <oerjan> elliott: but i _needed_ an apocalypse D:
12:33:21 <oerjan> i blame the atheists and their anti-faith
12:33:32 <fizzie> GreyKnight: It's the end of the world and you feel fine?
12:37:05 <elliott> oerjan: I am kind of underwhelmed that absolutely nothing happened here whatsoever
12:40:05 <oerjan> elliott: they're having riots in gothenburg, i hear. although they started earlier.
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12:45:12 <FreeFull> Is there a built in function that does foldl (>>) (head x) (tail x)
12:47:47 <fizzie> foldl f (head l) (tail l) is the same as foldl1 f l, isn't it?
12:48:59 <oerjan> hm it seems that it's just an accident that the day of this calendar turnover is solstice, that's not the case for other ones
12:49:44 <oerjan> SO MAYBE THE END OF THE WORLD COULD HAPPEN AT ANOTHER TIME OF DAY
12:51:03 <GreyKnight> ISTR something about they didn't take leap days into account properly when converting to our calendar? So it's been and gone if so :-o
12:51:13 <oerjan> FreeFull: do you need the result of the final item? otherwise sequence_ will do. or you could do fmap last . sequence although that may leak memory
12:52:16 <fizzie> I also have heard that according to some people the proper calendar synchronization would make December 23rd the right day.
12:52:49 <oerjan> GreyKnight: from the section on the issue, it seems that there's a pretty strong consensus now but that there was a lot of argument before they reached it
12:52:58 <fizzie> "The date of 13.0.0.0.0 4 Ajaw 3 K'ank'in is usually correlated as 21 or 23 December 2012." (Wikipedia.)
12:53:48 <oerjan> "Today, 12:30, Friday December 21, 2012 (UTC), in the Long Count is 13.0.0.0.0 (GMT correlation)."
12:54:06 <oerjan> i think that's a piece of autochanging text in wikipedia
12:55:14 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Long_Count_calendar#Correlations_between_Western_calendars_and_the_Long_Count
12:57:01 <oerjan> FreeFull: dependent on the monad, you may want foldr rather than foldl there
12:58:16 <oerjan> foldr (>>) (return ()) x
12:58:16 <fizzie> foldm, which folds in the middle.
12:59:00 <lambdabot> sequence_ ms = foldr (>>) (return ()) ms
12:59:11 <oerjan> fizzie: no, but monads differ in whether >> is strictest in the first or second argument
12:59:21 <shachaf> foldr (>>) is generally the way to go.
12:59:28 <shachaf> Monads want to be right-associated.
12:59:38 <oerjan> oh right that's just what it does
13:00:02 <oerjan> Reader is better the other way, for example
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13:00:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Reader doesn't even have any effects.
13:00:33 <shachaf> So you pretty much want to right-associate it.
13:00:43 <shachaf> Because you say foo >>= (\x -> bar >>= (\y -> ...))
13:00:49 <shachaf> Well, I guess you don't *have* to say that.
13:00:58 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway the real answer is to use Codensity.
13:01:00 <oerjan> shachaf: no you don't, that makes it unnecessarily strict
13:01:15 <GreyKnight> <shachaf> Monads want to be right-associated. <-- Don't anthropomorphise monads. They hate that.
13:01:15 <shachaf> Codensity: The Best Monad?
13:02:36 <FreeFull> > foldl (>>) (Just 1) [Just 2]
13:02:50 <FreeFull> oerjan: Does that look wrong to you
13:03:02 <FreeFull> > foldl (>>) (Just 1) [Just 2,Just3]
13:03:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Just3'
13:03:04 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Just' (imported ...
13:03:05 <FreeFull> > foldl (>>) (Just 1) [Just 2,Just 3]
13:03:12 <oerjan> no, also Maybe is definitely one of the right associating ones
13:05:21 <oerjan> also what was said about foldl1
13:06:10 <oerjan> > foldr1 (>>) $ fmap Just [1..10]
13:06:56 <oerjan> mind you those are among those evil partial functions
13:07:21 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you know: scanl1 isn't evil?
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13:12:22 <shachaf> > scanl1 undefined undefined -- OR IS IT?
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13:23:30 <HackEgo> 206) <oklopol> hey speaking of young, some kinds asked me to buy some tobacco for them and i did, and then they were all likd "wow that guy's coool" when i told them i don't need their money
13:23:44 <HackEgo> 70) [Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> 'cuz it's pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
13:23:46 <HackEgo> 614) <oerjan> elliott: it occurs to me that `? welcome is atypical: its information is actually true.
13:23:48 <HackEgo> 84) <vadim> it can be a good fursuit, but the good thing is that nobody can complain a fox doesn't have the right skin tone
13:23:49 <HackEgo> 27) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
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13:49:29 <fizzie> But are you supposed to call (\x y -> y) "const id" or "flip const", that's the question.
13:49:56 <fizzie> lambdabot: That's just *your* opinion, man.
13:51:11 <elliott> I prefer const id except when I don't
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13:55:23 <fizzie> For the discerning (a -> b -> b)'er.
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14:32:28 <FreeFull> :t let wurst a b = b in curry wurst
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14:36:58 <Taneb> That is the wurst function I have ever seen
14:53:42 <boily> good end of the world!
14:58:52 <Taneb> It certainly is the end of the world
14:58:55 <Taneb> I've smoked a cigar
15:28:10 <boily> going to scotch myself when I'll get back home.
15:30:39 <Taneb> ...is Korea really known as the land of the morning calm?
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16:11:26 <boily> Taneb: it comes from the Joseon (朝鮮) Dynasty, which can be interpreted as "Fresh Morning".
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16:17:48 <FreeFull> I wonder how much slower let x y = (10^y - 1) `div` 9 in x 1000 is over let x y = read (take y $ repeat '1') :: Integer in x 1000
16:18:03 <FreeFull> Assuming it is actually slower
16:18:30 <Taneb> > let x y = (10^y - 1) `div` 9 in x 1000
16:18:33 <lambdabot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111...
16:18:57 <Taneb> > let x y = read (replicate y '1') :: Integer in x 1000
16:18:59 <lambdabot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111...
16:19:23 <FreeFull> Reading in the string does seem faster
16:20:29 <Taneb> > let x y = foldl' (\acc c -> 10 * acc + toInteger (digitToInt c)) (replicate y '1') in x 1000
16:20:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Integer.Type.Integer'
16:20:52 <Taneb> > let x y = foldl' (\acc c -> 10 * acc + toInteger (digitToInt c)) 0 (replicate y '1') in x 1000
16:20:54 <lambdabot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111...
16:21:22 <Taneb> > let x y = foldl' (\acc c -> 10 * acc + c) 0 (replicate y 1) in x 1000
16:21:24 <lambdabot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111...
16:21:37 <Taneb> That's probably the quickest
16:21:44 <Taneb> That I can think of
16:22:00 <Jafet> That's the slowest
16:23:28 <Taneb> It's also easily extendable to other bases
16:25:18 <Taneb> > let x y = foldl' (\acc c -> 16 * acc + c) 0 (replicate y 1) in showHex (x 1000) ""
16:25:20 <lambdabot> "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111...
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16:34:47 <Jafet> > replicate 1000 '1'
16:34:49 <lambdabot> "11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111...
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18:00:14 <Vorpal> Heh, someone ported that vMac emulator to Android.
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18:20:29 <GreyKnight> @tell zzo38 another angular unit is the mil (1/6400 of a revolution)
18:28:03 <HackEgo> 162) <fizzie> I don't trust ducks. They always look like they're planning something. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give them language capabilities.
18:28:05 <HackEgo> 584) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough.
18:28:06 <HackEgo> 134) <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
18:28:08 <HackEgo> 57) <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
18:28:09 <HackEgo> 233) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
18:28:57 <GreyKnight> also if a GNU tar feature doesn't make you feel superior to others then you should file a bug report, it was probably unintentional
18:29:05 <HackEgo> 659) <oklopol> why not just give the gays their own state so people could finally pray in peace
18:29:07 <HackEgo> 151) <catseye> i like the feeling of freedom you get driving a bus
18:29:07 <HackEgo> 651) <itidus21> myndzi\: ok so one of the nastiest puzzles i suppose is... you're on death row.. you don't want to die.
18:29:07 <HackEgo> 710) <itidus21> ok in other words, its a lot easier to reason about 2^43112609-1 apples by using the text "2^43112609-1" than it is to actually produce 2^43112609-1 apples
18:29:07 <HackEgo> 329) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
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19:22:38 <oerjan> `addquote <GreyKnight> also if a GNU tar feature doesn't make you feel superior to others then you should file a bug report, it was probably unintentional
19:22:43 <HackEgo> 882) <GreyKnight> also if a GNU tar feature doesn't make you feel superior to others then you should file a bug report, it was probably unintentional
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19:30:44 <HackEgo> Freyr: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:31:46 <oerjan> hi, it's a bit quiet here right now
19:37:50 <boily> is Taneb back, or is someone here tanebly near? I think I now understand the purpose of his korean question, with nostradamus and all.
19:39:54 <oerjan> elliott is tanebly near hth
19:40:11 <oerjan> (although with a strong policy of never meeting, that may not help much)
19:40:46 <boily> @tell taneb bananas, mangos, kiwifruit, korean, nostradamus.
19:41:08 <boily> (the fruits will help him to recall the context. plenty of vitamins for a properly working memory!)
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21:15:16 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game I have now advanced an experience level. Do you have ideas?
21:15:16 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:15:20 <lambdabot> GreyKnight said 2h 54m 51s ago: another angular unit is the mil (1/6400 of a revolution)
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21:15:38 <zzo38> O, OK, now I know of more angular unit. I didn't know that one before.
21:15:49 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know this type?
21:15:59 <shachaf> newtype Forget r a b = Forget { unForget :: a -> r }
21:16:36 <zzo38> shachaf: I have not heard or read of that or thought about it before.
21:17:04 <shachaf> zzo38: How about Profunctor?
21:25:48 <kmc> "Police responded to a report of a man posing as a Cambridge Water Department employee... The man reportedly offered the resident a 50 percent rebate on his water bill but insisted on a $10 advance for the processing fee."
21:35:58 <oerjan> hey, it's just stupidity tax!
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22:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> could just be that he thought it was too pathetic to be a scam
22:15:45 <kmc> sometimes muggings start with scam attempts and then it's like 'ok well mr. knifey can confirm my story so there'
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22:17:31 <quintopia> that's why you should always call someone on their scam by pulling a gun on them first
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00:14:50 <zzo38> If you play crap using any two Platonic solid dice (which remain the same throughout the game), with the same rules as normal, what is affected the probability of winning according to?
00:16:08 <Bike> do your dice usually change shape during games?
00:16:15 <Taneb> Never played crap, don't know the rules
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00:21:46 <fizzie> Never played crap, don't give a crap?
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00:33:23 <fizzie> I was reading HeadRoom (headphone.com, the headphone review/shop site), and the #1 quote in the "what our customers say" sidebar was: "I just wanted to say that the picture of the unicorn you drew for me was so awesome it almost made me cry. I particularly love unicorns. They're just so beautiful and graceful, like a lamb, but less hairy."
00:33:37 <fizzie> I think that is a fine statement.
00:38:50 <zzo38> Taneb: The rules are: On your first roll if it totals 7 or 11 you win, if it is 2 or 3 or 12 then you lose. Otherwise, you continue rolling, and other than the first turn, if you roll 7 you lose, if the same as the first number you win, otherwise try again until you match the first total or 7.
00:39:55 <zzo38> Another puzzle I have read once related to crap game is, your opponent is going to play dice but he loaded one of the dice to make the 5 be 100%. You now have the chance to load the other dice using whatever probabilities you want. How should you do it to make the least probability he will win?
00:41:04 <zzo38> (Notice that if you make the second dice also always come up the same number with 100% probability, then he will always win regardless of what number this is. Therefore you must do something else.)
00:43:56 <coppro> zzo38: I believe the game is called craps
00:44:08 <ais523> well, it obviously makes sense to make 1, 3, 4, and 5 all have equal probability, and 6 to have zero probability
00:44:27 <ais523> so we'll call the probability of 1345 total p, and of 2 p' (p' = 1 - p)
00:45:35 <ais523> the chance that the opponent wins on the first roll is p'; alternatively, if they don't roll a 2 on the first roll (probability p), their chance of winning is (p/4)/(p/4+p')
00:46:23 <ais523> that's p/(p+4p'), or p/(p + 4 - 4p), or p/(4 - 3p)
00:46:47 <ais523> so total chance is 1 - p + p^2/(4 - 3p)
00:48:28 <ais523> differentiating this gives -1 + ((2p)(4 - 3p)+(p^2)(-3))/((4 - 3p)^2)
00:49:06 <ais523> setting that to 0 gives (4 - 3p)^2 = (8p - 6p^2) - 3p^2
00:49:26 <ais523> or 16 - 12p + 9p^2 = 8p - 9p^2
00:49:56 <ais523> or 18p^2 - 20p + 16 = 0
00:51:15 <ais523> so p is optimised at (20 ± sqrt(400 - 64*18)) / 36
00:51:40 <ais523> I must have screwed up something there
00:51:58 <ais523> the general /principle/ is correct, though :)
00:53:37 <fizzie> (4 - 3p)^2 = 4^2 - 2*4*3p + (3p)^2 = 16 - 24p + 9p^2, right? (Not ...-12p...)
00:56:34 <fizzie> (Though 64*18 > 32^2 too.)
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00:58:44 <fizzie> (A regular person would just have let Mathematica to do the derivative.)
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01:25:47 <sgeo_> elliott, Fiora monqy Phantom_Hoover
01:26:12 <kmc> > 2^2^2^2^2
01:26:14 <lambdabot> 200352993040684646497907235156025575044782547556975141926501697371089405955...
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01:27:04 <monqy> if he hasn't followed for ages, then why would he be on the list
01:27:53 <monqy> i'm sure if he were with us today he'd thank sgeo for updating him(rest in peace)
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01:30:24 <kmc> > length $ show (2^2^2^2^2)
01:32:25 <kmc> > length $ show (3^3^3^3^3)
01:35:48 <fizzie> ais523: http://sprunge.us/IcID incidentally.
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01:37:00 <ais523> zzo38: so the conclusion from this is that you have to make 2 come up 1/3 of the time, and 1/3/4/5 come up 1/6 of the time each
01:37:13 <ais523> or in other words, you just take your normal dice and replace the 6 with a 2 and hope nobody notices
01:42:07 <zzo38> I don't like it that you cannot use guards in do-notation in Haskell. Therefore you need to put the guard on the next line instead.
01:45:23 <Jafet> > do let { doguard p x | p x = x | otherwise = fail "" }; doguard even -> x <- Just 1; return x
01:45:24 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:70: parse error on input `->'
01:46:37 <Jafet> > do let { doguard p x | p x = return x | otherwise = fail "" }; x <- doguard even =<< Just 1; return x
01:47:46 <zzo38> What else I don't particularly like is that do-notation is built-in rather than definable using macros. This is difficult to change, though.
01:53:43 * sgeo_ 100% agrees with zzo38
01:53:58 <sgeo_> About the do notation being built-in
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02:20:34 <kmc> baked in 'do' syntax is a pragmatic measure that goes against theoretical beauty
02:20:42 <kmc> haskell has a lot of those, which you wouldn't guess from the way people talk about it
02:21:09 <kmc> i don't know how to design a macro system which supports syntactic extensions like 'do'
02:21:26 <kmc> i guess i would start by looking at Camlp4 / Camlp5
02:21:49 <kmc> yeah... no.
02:22:05 <Bike> «The current version of camlp4 doesn't have yet a manual. The "Camlp4 manual" is from 2003, and is not compatible with present version.» exciting
02:22:45 <kmc> yeah that is not ideal
02:23:01 <Bike> oh man, is wikipedia's example using gensyms
02:23:38 <Bike> is ML stuff just underdocumented? when I went looking for Standard ML resources i was kind of... underwhelmed, i couldn't even find docs for the yacc my book was using
02:24:17 <Jafet> gensym means your syntax is more pointfree
02:24:20 <Bike> nothing like, i don't know, the haskell wiki
02:24:27 <Jafet> Or it means your macro system is crap, I'm not sure
02:24:54 <sgeo_> I think Campl stuff is more of an O'Caml thing?
02:25:01 <Bike> it means your macro system is (probably) unhygenic, which isn't as often associated with ~Theoretical Beauty~.
02:25:12 <Bike> sgeo_: yes, i meant the family
02:25:26 <Bike> also is it actually spelled with an apostrophe
02:25:28 <kmc> the haskell wiki is crap
02:25:39 <Bike> it's better than nothing!
02:25:51 <sgeo_> It might not be, I guess?
02:25:51 <Bike> though the talkmode pages are definitely pretty funny yeah
02:25:53 <Jafet> I'm not sure if I consider define-syntax to be theoretical beauty
02:26:28 <kmc> to me scheme's hygenic macros almost miss the entire point of lisp
02:27:05 <Bike> isn't define-syntax just a pattern matchy thing combined with automatically codewalking through and renaming symbols for you?
02:27:54 <kmc> i think i prefer simple unhygenic macros, with sugar to make it easier to use them hygenically
02:28:09 <kmc> like auto-gensym in clojure (HI SGEO) or various Lisp libraries
02:28:18 <kmc> but i haven't used any Lisp extensively so i don't really know
02:28:22 <sgeo_> I still don't really quite understand Scheme macros
02:28:26 <Bike> well, so do I, but i've never seen anyone call unhygeine "beautiful" or w/e
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02:28:53 <kmc> well the fact that they're unhygenic is not the beautiful part
02:29:06 <zzo38> I think is good to have both kind of macros available, as well as the macro with is partially hygienic and partially unhygienic, if you want to write such a macro.
02:29:25 <Bike> you can define hygenic macros in an unhygenic macro system and vice versa, so.
02:29:47 <sgeo_> http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/37650151853/common-lisp-symbols-vs-clojure-symbols
02:30:25 <kmc> today i realized i should learn more about GHC's STM
02:30:33 <kmc> like, how is atomic commit actually accomplished
02:30:36 <Bike> "Clojure unquoting uses ~ and ~@ instead of CL's , and ,@. This allows Clojure to treat commas as whitespace." i made the mistake of googling things
02:31:04 <kmc> assuming you have proceeded successfully to the end of a transaction, and have new values for refs stored in some data structure, how do you actually commit them all at once?
02:31:57 <Bike> commits don't just use mutexes, huh
02:32:55 <Gracenotes> you could use seqlocks or something, I guess
02:32:57 <Bike> oh or wait, is it like compare and swap
02:33:01 <Bike> wow i know shit about concurrency
02:33:16 <Gracenotes> although those do require writer locks... nevermind.
02:33:39 <kmc> you generally can't compare and swap an arbitrary number of pointers at once
02:34:09 <kmc> i mean i can think of ways to do it, you can have a lock on each variable or a global commit lock
02:34:09 <Bike> maybe it only retries writes that fail? hm
02:34:14 <Jafet> I assume it uses locks
02:34:15 <kmc> i was just wondering what GHC does
02:34:31 <kmc> i wasn't really asking for a bunch of uninformed speculation
02:34:33 <Bike> sgeo_: your post there is kind of wrong in a couple nitpicky ways
02:34:39 <kmc> but I guess this is what I get for asking a question on IRC
02:34:44 <kmc> it's ok :)
02:34:50 <kmc> i too enjoy a bit of uninformed speculation from time to time
02:35:03 <Bike> all i know about STM is that there's going to be hardware TM soon enough
02:35:10 <Jafet> I assume it uses locks because that's what most STM implementations use
02:35:27 <sgeo_> Bike, hmm, how so?
02:35:59 <kmc> i've heard it described as lockless
02:36:05 <kmc> but not in detail
02:36:56 <Jafet> Also, irc is the only place to get high quality uninformed speculation
02:37:04 <Jafet> We specialize in armchair navel gazing
02:37:08 <sgeo_> Bike, or feel free to leave a comment on the post
02:37:17 <Jafet> There are so many other places on the internet to get actual facts
02:37:21 <Bike> i'm just going to pm you because it's really nitpicky
02:38:10 <Jafet> Apparently, the ghc wiki is not one of them
02:39:11 <Gracenotes> there are functions lock_stm and unlock_stm in GHC RTS
02:39:31 <Gracenotes> they do cas on a global static variable
02:40:12 <Gracenotes> they seem to surround most interesting functions, like stmCommitTransaction
02:41:17 <Gracenotes> there's also a bunch of checking done before a linearization point, at which a given thread claims ownership of tvars
02:42:02 <Gracenotes> complicated, but pretty straightforward compared to doing it for arbitrary executables, granted >_>
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04:17:27 <ais523> haha, the BBC have a live feed of an important ancient Mayan site
04:17:34 <ais523> counting down to the end of the world in their local time
04:17:38 <Bike> for god's sake.
04:17:52 <ais523> they don't think the world's going to end
04:17:59 <ais523> but it's a news event and they're in the mood to cover it
04:18:07 <ais523> if nothing else, it's like a Y2K celebration
04:18:28 <ais523> oh, now they're talking about Obama instead
04:18:32 <quintopia> i am at home missing a great end of the world party
04:18:35 <ais523> they said they'll get back to the end of the world later
04:18:44 <Bike> b'ak'tun's ending and we're all going to die. thanks obama
04:18:57 <quintopia> but i'm too tired and i dont know the address and i have to be up at 6am :( :( :(
04:26:49 <sgeo_> It's still not midnight in my time zone
04:26:55 <sgeo_> So I'm still on the 21st
04:27:17 <sgeo_> Maybe it's a rolling thing and you're all just fakes to fake me out into thinking I'm safe
04:28:52 <quintopia> the mayas all fit into central time
04:29:13 <quintopia> they may not have had the same idea of midnight
04:30:20 <Fiora> I thought this was all yesterday though
04:30:28 <Fiora> was the apocalypse postponed one day
04:31:14 <kmc> the apocalypse was moved to thursday to chase the coveted 18-35 demographic
04:31:43 <sgeo_> All I'm saying is that it's still the 21st, it's not too late for the world to end
04:32:05 <ais523> also midnight is pretty easy to understand
04:32:09 <zzo38> Midnight is when the sun conjuncts the MC, though, isn't it?
04:32:12 <quintopia> did you want to know how to beat space_hotel?
04:32:39 <ais523> oh, I can probably find a way, but I'm interested in your theories too
04:32:44 <quintopia> zzo38: that happened in 1998. it's only a partial alignment this time
04:33:12 <ais523> I was wondering if there was a general way to exploit jousters using the "trail and poke forwards, enhance decoys backwards, then forwards decoy setup while checking tripwires" strategy
04:33:20 <quintopia> well there is no good way to beat it with a lock. it would be a monstrous program if you did
04:33:22 <zzo38> quintopia: What? Sorry?
04:33:29 <ais523> because all the best jousters do that, and most of the time in BF Joust, if there's any pattern at all, it's exploitable
04:33:37 <ais523> I wasn't actually planning to lock
04:33:59 <ais523> one of my plans involved detecting where your jouster was, waiting for it to pass a tripwire, then going behind it and taking the tags while it sets decoys
04:33:59 <zzo38> What happened in 1998 and is only a partial alignment this time?
04:34:13 <quintopia> well i mean other than those two i made just to beat it
04:34:16 <ais523> but I don't think there's any way to do it but getting lucky
04:34:26 <quintopia> i was going to suggest exactly that strategy
04:34:30 <ais523> or exploiting the fact that its reverse tripwires are size 3, and I hate that sort of level of constant-tweaking
04:34:44 <zzo38> I do not understand what you are refering to.
04:34:58 <ais523> quintopia: well what you'd have to do is find one of its tripwires, preferably as near to the flag as you can safely
04:35:00 <ais523> then wait for it to become 0
04:35:06 <quintopia> i was going to suggest a deep poke that restored tripwires
04:35:21 <ais523> but it's not fast enough, and really really long
04:35:40 <ais523> rather than as a clear?
04:35:47 <ais523> huh, I didn't think of that angle
04:36:12 <ais523> so the idea would be to set up decoys while it was setting decoys
04:36:16 <ais523> then skip much more of yours than you did of its
04:36:46 <ais523> I'll only need, like, 210 copies of the program
04:36:49 <ais523> that might be manageable :)
04:36:51 <quintopia> you can make a lot of small decoys right at the beginning until you achieve a shallow poke
04:37:05 <quintopia> space_hotel is miserable at clearing long lines of small decoys
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04:37:24 <ais523> yeah; small decoys used to actually not do anything
04:37:27 <ais523> but that isn't really the case any more
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04:38:22 <quintopia> anything one bigger than its wiggle will cost it almost as many cycle as if it never offset at all
04:38:35 <ais523> I think we have a new concept of "medium-sized decoy"
04:38:42 <ais523> as well as "small decoy" and "large decoy"
04:39:33 <quintopia> the fact that counterpoke does not use a large offset is what makes it so potent against space_hotel.
04:39:48 <quintopia> or is it skyscraper that does that?
04:39:59 <quintopia> skyscraper didnt build big enough decoys
04:40:30 <ais523> I can't even remember how skyscraper works
04:40:34 <ais523> and only vaguely remember counterpoke
04:40:37 <ais523> I should look at my own code
04:41:37 <ais523> huh, I don't even have a copy of skyscraper any more
04:41:40 <ais523> apart from in the hg history
04:43:41 <ais523> yeah, I'm just not sure how to find it in hg history
04:44:53 <kmc> http://files.shroomery.org/files/05-03/641365503-Naked_girl_with_shroom_bible.jpg what it says on the tin
04:44:59 <ais523> $ hg cat -r 9792 ais523_skyscraper.bfjoust
04:45:53 <quintopia> what the hell is a shroom bible for
04:45:54 <ais523> huh, this decoy setup makes no sense
04:46:07 <ais523> why would I write a decoy setup that jumps around like that
04:46:24 <ais523> !bfjoust skyscraper >>>>>>>>[((>[+[+[---[-[(+)*96(.+)*64{}]]]]])%21)*21](+)*12<(+)*80<(+)*40<(+)*10>>(+)*30<<(<(+)*10)*4>>>>>>([{(<)*7(-)*99(>)*8(>[(+)*19[---]])*21}<(+[{+(+[{(<(-)*60)*5<(+)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%100}](<(+)*40)*5<(-)*78(>)*12(>[(+)*19[-]])*17)%156])%768
04:46:30 <kmc> someone growing psychedelic mushrooms inside a bible
04:46:34 <Bike> kmc: what is that... mass of... fur? under the tree
04:46:35 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_skyscraper: 21.5
04:46:40 <kmc> they eat wood you know
04:46:43 <ais523> this is a blatant attempt to get it into egojsout
04:47:02 <kmc> i, uh, don't know
04:48:28 <ais523> also why does it beat anticipation? it looks like the sort of program anticipation would beat really easily
04:49:06 <ais523> oh, probably because of the "anticipation was tweaked to omit cases that weren't actually used against the hill because of space limits" thing
04:50:55 <quintopia> so when do you think we'll get random numbers in bfjoust eh
04:52:01 <ais523> probably never, I thought it would be pretty interesting, but it causes too many problems for hill maintainabilty/replicability
04:52:26 <quintopia> when do you think we'll get an infinite hill
04:52:32 <ais523> like, you couldn't tell who won or didn't win
04:52:39 <ais523> and infinite hill has problems in terms of user interface
04:52:54 <ais523> I think I like the large finite one we have at the moment, although I'd submit to an infinite hill too
04:53:05 <ais523> sgeo_: like the current one but infinitely large
04:53:16 <ais523> if a program's good enough, you can leave it on the hill forever
04:53:29 <ais523> any idea which program's survived there the longest, incidentally?
04:53:50 <quintopia> but the downside of a finite hill is the possibility of making a program that beats the entire hill on every tape length and polarity without involving brackets
04:54:14 <quintopia> we should give extra credit for number of generations survived
04:54:42 <ais523> also, wow is counterpoke vs. space_hotel close
04:55:40 <quintopia> yeah counterpoke originally won until i tweaked the initial decoy setup just to avoid triggering its short tape jump-to-flag condition
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05:39:28 <shachaf> kmc: Aren't ≅ and ≌ great?
05:39:58 <kmc> is that like ± and ∓
05:40:30 <Bike> "ALL EQUAL TO", wha
05:42:40 <lambdabot> PaulJohnson says: A paradox of the Haskell world is that, while the language is Vulcan, the community around it is dominated by Warm Fuzziness. Clearly the two are not mutually exclusive.
05:42:48 <lambdabot> pejo says: shapr, I haven't said anything thoughtful yet, but I'm working on it.
05:42:48 <lambdabot> wuttf says: i think i have to learn this language, the type systems i know just dont feel right
05:42:48 <lambdabot> BHSPitMonkey says: as well as to do try more like
05:42:49 <lambdabot> Pseudonym says: All hail the Evil Mangler!
06:02:19 <coppro> CD really is trying hard to be the awesomest
06:27:54 <zzo38> Is for all monad transformer t: t Finalize = Finalize true for all categories with final objects?
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08:26:03 <lambdabot> Plugin `quote' failed with: getRandItem: empty list
08:26:04 <lambdabot> nornagon says: i thought someone just wrote a lambdabot plugin to write lambdabot
08:26:04 <lambdabot> shachaf says: * shachaf = delliott/dt
08:26:04 <lambdabot> ddarius says: Attempting to join #not-not-math sent me to #math. Freakin' Boole.
08:26:05 <lambdabot> ReinierLamers says: If we keep up the current pace of performance hacking, darcs will be complete before you even hit the enter key in a few years
08:54:21 <zzo38> I know of more than one solitaire game where only the suits are relevant, and not the ranks of the cards.
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09:05:20 <zzo38> There are also games where the ranks are relevant and the suits aren't relevant.
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09:22:17 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I'm not convinced it's _obvious_ 6 should have zero probability. it decreases the chance of winning on the first step yes, but it also increases it on all the others...
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09:44:44 <shachaf> kmc: I just used the word "trivial" in #haskell.
09:45:13 <shachaf> As in "making twanvl lenses polymorphic is trivial"
09:45:34 <shachaf> My defense is that making them polymorphic consists of commenting out the type signature.
09:45:35 <fizzie> Or as in, "Trivial Pursuit is a trivial pursuit".
09:46:07 <fizzie> (Trivial fursuit is just the skin of a dead animal.)
09:47:09 <zzo38> O, that's what you mean by trivial.
09:48:53 <zzo38> shachaf: You can also figure out the type it infers and put that in, if you want it to have a type signature; I always want it to have a type signature. But do you have example of the polymorphic lenses?
09:48:58 <zzo38> Of what exactly you want?
09:49:29 <shachaf> zzo38: People used to do things like
09:49:43 <shachaf> type Lens s a = s -> (a, a -> s)
09:50:00 <shachaf> _1 :: Lens (a,b) a; _1 (x,y) = (x, (,y))
09:50:16 <shachaf> Except with newtype instead of type.
09:50:32 <shachaf> As it happens, if you write a lens like that, you can make it polymorphic just by commenting out its type signature.
09:50:42 <shachaf> But no one really noticed that until twan lenses.
09:50:55 <zzo38> Is that Twan van Laarhoven?
09:50:57 <shachaf> (Because those don't work as a newtype; they have to be defined as a synonym.)
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12:20:20 <ais523> hmm… so my computer's been acting weirdly recently
12:20:21 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
12:20:27 <ais523> so I decided to run memcheck86
12:21:33 <ais523> conclusions: no errors in the first six tests
12:21:43 <ais523> then the seventh test gives an error on /every single memory address on the system/
12:23:39 <ais523> it looked from the output like its expected output and its provided input had no relation to each other
12:26:56 <FreeFull> ais523: Try reseating your RAM
12:27:05 <FreeFull> Also amazed that you could boot at all
12:27:17 <ais523> FreeFull: err, I'm saying, I think the test was bugged
12:27:21 <ais523> rather than the memory
12:27:45 <ais523> you don't read the memory as consistently working for six tests, then suddenly not working at all just because you provide random rather than deterministic data
12:28:33 <FreeFull> Could be that the test got corrupted by the RAM =P
12:28:52 <ais523> yeah, I was wondering about that too
12:29:02 <ais523> but in that case the other tests would have found a problem
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12:31:12 <FreeFull> ais523: Could be the way the random numbers are generated too. Anyway, how is memtest supposed to test the memory it's occupying?
12:31:28 <ais523> and then tests where it was
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14:40:31 <elliott> 02:31:04: <kmc> assuming you have proceeded successfully to the end of a transaction, and have new values for refs stored in some data structure, how do you actually commit them all at once?
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17:08:35 <Sgeo> I feel capitalized again
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17:19:20 <elliott> @tell ais523 http://blog.functorial.com/posts/2012-12-21-One-Hole-Contexts-Generalize-Diff-To-Containers.html
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18:33:27 <zzo38> Did you say "often" or "orphan"?
18:37:32 <oerjan> nah, he's just an awe fan
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21:02:13 <zzo38> Do you like this music? http://zzo38computer.org/csound/music/antioch.zip
21:03:14 <zzo38> (The ZIP archive contains the Vorbis audio file, as well as the source files, with the exception of the pregenerated PADsynth tables.)
21:03:23 <Taneb> That's pretty nice-sounding
21:06:59 <zzo38> The PADsynth settings used were: f 5 0 524288 "padsynth" 1 200 .07 1 3 1 -1 (If you want to compile the music from source you will need the file "pad5.csft" which can be generated using this code; the file padgen.zip also contains this file as well as the source to this file, if you want it.)
21:16:44 <zzo38> You are free to add, remove, change, and improve!
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21:49:31 <ion> Meanwhile in Japan http://youtu.be/vhHo6CUq4-o
21:56:01 <Taneb> There's a person in #haskell whose username is too similar to mine
21:56:10 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
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21:58:38 <monqy> a few days ago i found someone in there named "artiq" or something like that
21:58:55 <monqy> i think it was "artiq" but it was definitely a transposition away from "atriq"
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22:06:51 <GreyKnight> Also meanwhile in Japan: http://fotozup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/japanese_body_modification_01.jpg
22:06:55 <GreyKnight> "This man has pineapple rings in his forehead. Your argument is irrelevant."
22:11:48 <GreyKnight> `addquote <Jafet> Also, irc is the only place to get high quality uninformed speculation <Jafet> We specialize in armchair navel gazing
22:11:49 <oerjan> Ngevd: just one keming away, even! you should ask him if his surname is van doom...
22:14:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel for esoteric omphaloskepsis and computer programming | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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22:22:40 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ egobot.tar.xz \ etc \ factor \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ foo \ foo.err \ foo.out \ ibin \ ibins \ interps \ karma \ lib \ luabuild \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.rockspec \ luafilesystem-1.6.2-1.src.rock \ luarocks.err \ luarocks.out \ paste \ penlight-1.0.0-1.rockspec \ penlight-1.0.0-1.src.rock \ quotes \ share \ wisdom \ zalgo.hs
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22:37:04 <GreyKnight> `run echo "The channel for polythronic omphaloskepsis and compsognathus progesterone" | zalgo
22:37:06 <HackEgo> T̞h͈e͗ ͜cͫh̦a̡n̺n̢ḛl̋ ̌f͚o͔r͋ ̡p̧o̅lͣy̾t̼h̬r͈o͊n͞i̶c̮ ̔o̎m̍pͮh͛ål̍ös̼k̬e̒p͔s̔i̋s̟ ̔a͌n̑d̹ ̴c̈o̞m̀p̆s͟o̫g̟nͭa͡t͢h͎u̜s̤ ̺p̩rͪo͉g̐ḛs͘t̆e̻r̻oͥn͝e̥ \ ̝
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23:01:14 <elliott> oerjan: that changing host quit isn't a real quit
23:01:18 <elliott> set the ban on the wanadoo version
23:01:32 <elliott> its before the host comes in
23:01:37 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-51-132.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr.
23:01:39 <elliott> you want it on the wanadoo hostname
23:03:41 <elliott> i read the @ as in front of monqy there
23:03:46 <elliott> oerjan: requesting you op monqy.
23:03:48 <elliott> it's the right thing to do
23:04:12 <elliott> oerjan: you may want to /msg sebbu3 saying you'll unban them once their internet is working if you haven't
23:05:06 <Deewiant> oerjan: You may want to actually set that ban (+b)
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23:05:25 <Sgeo> When I was having trouble, I was told that I might be given a turing test...
23:05:51 <oerjan> Deewiant: mighty good point
23:05:54 <HackEgo> 381) <Sgeo> Will anyone be irritated if I tend to disconnect and reconnect a lot? [...] <oerjan> we _almost_ have an established policy that bots will be banned it they do that. which means we might have to administer a turing test to sgeo, and that could get ugly.
23:05:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:06:18 <elliott> I like how there's no ban but it still worked
23:06:22 <elliott> I guess because it failed to join the channel once
23:06:42 <oerjan> Deewiant: i can never remember whether it's + or -, and there is no response to indicate whether you get it right :(
23:07:25 <oerjan> and i hate looking at the ban list proper because it floods my channel window
23:08:13 <elliott> one could argue that a few bans could be removed.
23:08:41 <elliott> in fact from the looks of it there is only one ban that isn't yet another incarnation of cheater that wants keeping
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23:09:58 <oerjan> that seems a little exaggerated :P
23:14:52 <elliott> first four bans are all cheater, all the rest are from ancient one-or-two-time offenders who are very unlikely to return
23:16:03 <oerjan> i hate how the times keep being reset
23:16:48 <FreeFull> "round x returns the nearest integer to x; the even integer if x is equidistant between two integers" Wonder why it doesn't just return the greater integer
23:17:09 <oerjan> elliott: um could you make an actual self-consistent statement :P
23:17:19 <oerjan> (dbelange is no. 3 for me)
23:17:55 <elliott> 23:07:58 -!- 1 - #esoteric: ban barts*!*@* [by ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523, 4671912 secs ago]
23:17:58 <elliott> 23:07:58 -!- 2 - #esoteric: ban $a:cheater [by oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no, 10189258 secs ago]
23:18:01 <elliott> 23:07:58 -!- 3 - #esoteric: ban cheater*!*@*.adsl.alicedsl.de [by sturgeon.freenode.net, 11768887 secs ago]
23:18:04 <elliott> 23:07:58 -!- 4 - #esoteric: ban *!*@g230223105.adsl.alicedsl.de [by sturgeon.freenode.net, 11768887 secs ago]
23:18:07 <elliott> 23:07:58 -!- 5 - #esoteric: ban dbelange*!*@* [by sturgeon.freenode.net, 11768887 secs ago]
23:18:11 <elliott> FreeFull: because that's ceiling...
23:18:15 <elliott> round does normal rounding
23:18:30 <oerjan> FreeFull: it's called "banker's rounding" and it's supposed to make accumulated roundings cancel each other on average
23:18:31 <hagb4rd> frefull.. guess, that's because of there might no exact
23:18:48 <FreeFull> elliott: Ceiling would round 3.2 up
23:19:46 <hagb4rd> how can i output a float with a specified number of digits?
23:19:48 <elliott> oh for the equidistant case you mean
23:19:50 <elliott> then yeah what oerjan said
23:19:56 <elliott> it's "fairer" in some ways
23:20:04 <elliott> hagb4rd: it's nothing to do with floats
23:20:05 <oerjan> elliott: those are my 25, 24, 1, 2 and 3, respectively :P
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23:21:34 <FreeFull> I think ghc will just output all the significant digits
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23:23:48 <elliott> rip beedaweeda we missed you & yr ufos & yr molestation allegations
23:23:53 <elliott> oerjan: oh i lied port27.c might be one to keep.
23:23:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*@ec2-50-112-122-72.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com.
23:24:02 <elliott> if that's who I think it is
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23:24:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7328
23:25:27 <elliott> unban away then, doubt they'll be back
23:25:52 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!*port72.c@50.8.174.*.
23:26:11 <elliott> hm apparently the justification is kind of float-related
23:26:11 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
23:26:16 <elliott> per what monochrom said to FreeFull in #haskell
23:26:20 <elliott> 23:25:44 <monochrom> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html has an explanation of why round to even. string-search for "round to even"
23:26:50 <elliott> you realise one of those bots wasn't even mine right
23:26:57 <elliott> and also I don't have access to those IPs any more.
23:27:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
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23:28:35 <oerjan> > printf "%.4f" pi :: String
23:29:42 <hagb4rd> > printf "%.6f" 4.5 :: String
23:30:26 <monqy> the only bot i remember is zeptobot...
23:30:41 * hagb4rd throws his cards on the table
23:31:41 <GreyKnight> no I mean *I* had a full house. I win!
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23:39:51 <FreeFull> Waaait, doesn't this type definition say it only takes one argument
23:40:13 <monqy> printf is a gross typeclass hack
23:40:27 <elliott> FreeFull: what does "only one argument" mean
23:40:31 <elliott> every function only takes one argument in haskell
23:40:36 <elliott> String -> Int -> () is just String -> (Int -> ())
23:40:38 <monqy> check out what all's an instance of PrintfType
23:41:10 <FreeFull> elliott: A function that doesn't take multiple arguments for me is one that doesn't return a function, and will error if any more arguments are supplied
23:41:24 <lambdabot> (?x::String, ?y::t, PrintfType t1, PrintfArg t) => t1
23:41:46 <elliott> FreeFull: sorry, that notion is insufficiently general to apply to haskell.
23:42:07 <elliott> anyway the point is there is a PrintfType instance for (a -> b)
23:42:14 <elliott> for sufficiently restricted a, b
23:42:41 <oerjan> (PrintfArg a, PrintfType b) => PrintfType (a -> b)
23:43:20 <oerjan> as well as instance PrintfType (IO ()) and instance PrintfType String, at least
23:43:36 <fizzie> > (printf "%d" :: Double -> String) 4.5
23:43:37 <oerjan> the latter are used to end the chain
23:43:38 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Printf.printf: bad argument
23:44:21 <FreeFull> elliott: PrintfType r => String -> r makes as much sense to me as Monad m => Integer -> m
23:44:49 <elliott> okay. then the problem is that you do not understand typeclasses
23:45:06 <elliott> learn about them and you will understand printf's type better
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23:45:19 <hagb4rd> isn't that what he said already?
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23:46:20 <Sgeo> What do you call amb extended to work with any monad, not just the list monad?
23:46:59 <Sgeo> Just asking for a name, there would be a slight difference in usage
23:47:18 <elliott> Sgeo: it doesn't exist. you can't write it
23:48:07 <Sgeo> And by "slight difference" I mean "wrapped in a reset"
23:48:29 <elliott> Sgeo: it doesn't exist. you can't write it. there is no such function. amb does not work in every monad.
23:48:48 <monqy> Sgeo: call it mamb and discover for yourself why elliott's being a party pooper
23:49:03 <monqy> what does the name matter if it's impossible? mamb works well enough
23:50:30 <Sgeo> Maybe I have a wrong idea of what amb does? I'm sort of going off Factor's amb
23:50:41 <FreeFull> What is it meant to do and what would it do for a Maybe Integer
23:51:16 <elliott> Sgeo: how do you implement amb for Identity exactly
23:51:31 <elliott> it's possible for any MonadPlus anyway
23:51:31 <Sgeo> FreeFull, not execute the rest of the reset
23:51:49 <elliott> map :: (a -> b) -> M a -> M b
23:52:00 <elliott> how do you write amb :: [a] -> M a with that exactly
23:52:25 <elliott> i mean, even in the simplest case, amb [], there is nothing you can do
23:53:03 <Sgeo> Wait, why is amb taking a list?
23:53:15 <elliott> okay what is your type for amb then
23:53:37 <elliott> FreeFull: map is a perfectly fine name for it. map is a specialisation of fmap in Haskell and I am working in an abstract setting.
23:53:37 <Sgeo> It's supposed to look like m a -> a from the perspective of using code
23:53:49 <elliott> Sgeo: what. amb is not [a] -> a in the list monad??
23:54:12 <elliott> FreeFull: you will also note that I specified monads in terms of the return/map/join trifecta, not return/(>>=)/fail, the last of which doesn't even exist.
23:54:16 <elliott> oh I guess (>>) is lumped in there nowadays too
23:54:21 <FreeFull> elliott: Yeah but being used to the specialisation being a specialisation got me confused until I realised you meant fmap =P
23:54:38 <elliott> I guess it is a less confusing name for someone used to Haskell, yes
23:54:45 <elliott> it worked for my intended audience, I hope
23:55:00 <Sgeo> elliott, o.O ?
23:55:06 <elliott> > let amb = id in do { x <- amb [1,2,3]; y <- amb [1,2,3]; guard (x+y == 3) }
23:55:08 <FreeFull> (>>) can be implemented with (>>=), right?
23:55:14 <elliott> > let amb = id in do { x <- amb [1,2,3]; y <- amb [1,2,3]; guard (x+y == 3); return (x,y) }
23:55:55 <FreeFull> Then lumping it in isn't very necessary =P
23:56:22 <monqy> FreeFull: it's in case you want to specialize your >> to be optomized
23:56:26 <elliott> you can define (>>) more efficiently for some monads
23:57:10 <FreeFull> But not necessary when you're talking about a minimal definition
23:57:31 <Sgeo> elliott, maybe a language without native delimited continuations is not the best for this discussion?
23:57:55 <elliott> Sgeo: then I have no idea what you are talking about, or why monads are involved
23:58:05 <elliott> or why you are relating this operation to amb
23:58:23 <monqy> Sgeo: can you please write your thoughts in haskell, the one true Lingua Franca
23:59:29 <Sgeo> I've expressed my thoughts some time ago actually, except I didn't connect it to amb
23:59:35 <Sgeo> An applicative-ish syntax for using monads
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00:00:40 <zzo38> Do you mean things like bind2 = join .: liftA2 and so on?
00:00:41 <Sgeo> Which takes the appearance of a function ??? :: (Monad m) => m a -> a
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00:00:57 <Sgeo> Said function can only be used in a certain context
00:01:03 <monqy> what do you mean takes the appearance
00:01:04 <zzo38> You need a macro, then.
00:01:07 <monqy> and used in a certain context
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00:01:11 <zzo38> It is not a function.
00:01:17 <monqy> I don't think you're speaking haskell
00:01:30 <monqy> you're speaking (???language) with haskellish syntax
00:01:40 <elliott> 23:59:35 <Sgeo> An applicative-ish syntax for using monads
00:01:54 <elliott> alt. have you seen the work on effect systems
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00:02:04 <Sgeo> Haven't seen the work on effect systems :(
00:02:07 <FreeFull> I'm thinking m a -> a would cause a lot of trouble with the IO monad
00:02:10 <monqy> Sgeo: well my point with you should express your thoughts in haskell is we don't know what you're talking about when you use these weird terms
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00:02:32 <Sgeo> monqy, the best I can do is Haskell with shift and reset forms
00:02:49 <elliott> how about haskell with the Cont monad
00:03:01 <elliott> since it is a first-class representation of delimited continuations
00:03:14 <monqy> FreeFull: the point is sgeo isn't speaking haskell. he's speaking a weird thing.
00:03:33 <Sgeo> FreeFull, it shouldn't
00:04:04 <monqy> FreeFull: don't think anything sgeo's saying applies to haskell....
00:04:31 <monqy> idk something weird
00:04:54 <Sgeo> It's not "really" taking an arbitrary m a and turning it into a, it's taking the rest of the computation up to the reset, with its location as \a ->, and using >>= on its argument and that lambda
00:05:18 <Sgeo> Oh, I know: It's a bit like calling <- a function
00:05:22 <zzo38> Maybe it can apply to Ibtlfmm but even if it does, it would be a macro, and not a function.
00:05:31 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
00:05:49 <elliott> remember that time I proposed using Cont rather than confusing people
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00:06:06 <zzo38> elliott: How is that?
00:06:07 <Sgeo> I propose that this is for languages that don't have do
00:06:12 <monqy> remember that time I hinted in that direction and made explicit sgeo was confusing people
00:06:12 <Sgeo> And that do is ugly
00:06:24 <FreeFull> What would be a language that would be the opposite of Haskell?
00:06:32 <monqy> FreeFull: meaningless question
00:06:45 <elliott> Sgeo: i propose that this proposal is completely irrelevant to your question...
00:06:58 <monqy> Sgeo: could you -please- use Cont so I can understand what you're saying
00:07:03 <elliott> Sgeo: i assume you have heard of applicative notation right
00:07:07 <monqy> Sgeo: because otherwise I'm not getting anything out of your words
00:07:09 <elliott> since this sounds like you're edging in that direction but in a really weird way
00:07:15 <elliott> of course you still won't be able to do join which is kind of important
00:07:27 <Sgeo> ??? (??? a) is join
00:07:37 <monqy> idiom brackets can do join!!!!!!can't they
00:07:40 <FreeFull> elliott: Applicative doesn't really do m a -> a
00:08:08 <Sgeo> I'm not "really" doing m a -> a either, just the illusion of it
00:08:13 <monqy> FreeFull: sgeo was never talking about m a -> a. he was talking about somethign weird that he -called- m a -> a
00:08:22 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just go write Factor code, would that help?
00:08:42 <monqy> we don't know factor we know Cont
00:08:49 <monqy> so can you please use Cont to communicate with us
00:09:03 <Sgeo> What are the types of shift and reset in Cont?
00:09:05 <monqy> otherwise we won't be very helpful??
00:09:09 <elliott> still would like an answer to my Applicative question
00:09:18 <FreeFull> Sgeo: What are the stack effects of shift and reset in Factor?
00:09:19 <monqy> o yes i would like an answer to that too
00:09:25 <hagb4rd> you should know that monqy exists in 3 persons..father son and..
00:09:45 <elliott> shift f = Cont (flip runCont id . f)
00:09:52 <elliott> reset m = return (runCont m id)
00:09:58 <elliott> runCont and Cont work just fine though
00:10:11 <Sgeo> f <$> ma <*> mb <*> pure c <*> md --> f (??? a) (??? b) c (??? d)
00:10:51 <elliott> anyway just look at frank and eff if you want applicative notation for effects
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00:12:09 <elliott> Sgeo: but, your ??? function still clearly doesn't exist in Haskell
00:12:20 <elliott> if you want to work with the effect of a continuation then you want to write with Cont
00:12:22 <FreeFull> Sgeo: f <$> ma <*> mb <*> pure c <*> md would return the m d of md :: m d though
00:13:07 <FreeFull> I mean, if m is [], then it will return a [] d
00:13:32 <elliott> are you familiar with Applicatives?
00:14:31 <monqy> > (\ a b -> show (a + b)) <$> Just 1 <*> Just 2
00:14:41 <Sgeo> I'm just going to go ahead and call it mamb
00:14:44 <Sgeo> And write code
00:14:46 <monqy> nb that is not Maybe Int
00:15:15 <elliott> Sgeo: just call it "wtf". it's nothing to do with amb really
00:16:02 <Sgeo> In Factor, { 1 2 3 } amb seems to return a 1, unless backtracking occurs, in which case it returns 2, unless that backtracks too, in which case it returns 3
00:17:50 <FreeFull> Of course I have no idea what backtracking means here
00:18:55 <Sgeo> { 1 2 3 } amb dup 2 = require .
00:19:35 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works.
00:19:45 <FreeFull> So require goes back and undoes everything until it gets a true?
00:22:14 <Sgeo> The IO will get performed each time around. So probably a bad idea to mix them
00:24:07 <FreeFull> How far does require go back to? The nearest amb?
00:25:03 <Sgeo> The nearest amb, unless that amb fails entirely, in which case it goes up an amb
00:26:02 <coppro> FreeFull: how it actually works is it saves the continuation
00:26:14 <coppro> and then runs it until it erorrs, and if it does, it retries with the next option
00:28:22 <FreeFull> I don't see how this would make any sense for anything other than a [] of options
00:29:35 <FreeFull> Or something similar in structure
00:30:20 <Bike> you can do it with infinite sets pretty easily
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00:38:43 <Sgeo> What would be a good non-listy monad to try my idea out on
00:38:47 <Sgeo> Not counting Cont
00:39:02 <Sgeo> (I'm considering Maybe to be listy)
00:40:00 <Ngevd> Don't know what idea you're working on, though
00:42:47 <kmc> ((->) r) is also like a data structure
00:42:50 * Sgeo attempts to process wtf this looks like in Writer
00:42:53 <kmc> indexed by elements of r
00:43:06 <kmc> there's some formal distinction between data structure like monads and other ones
00:43:13 <kmc> but i forgot
00:43:14 <elliott> Sgeo: should be utterly trivial for Writer
00:43:20 <elliott> since you can implement Writer w a -> a
00:53:37 <Sgeo> "Generic word length does not define a method for the cons class."
00:56:48 <Sgeo> IN: scratchpad [ { 1 2 3 } mamb { 2 4 6 } mamb + 1array ] areset .
00:56:48 <Sgeo> { 3 5 7 4 6 8 5 7 9 }
00:57:29 <Bike> mamb bamb bo bamb
00:57:38 <Sgeo> mamb working the way I want it to with the list monad
00:58:20 <Ngevd> Is that just (+) <$> [1,2,3] <*> [2,4,6]?
00:58:31 <Ngevd> But in a weird language I know not of
00:58:50 <Sgeo> Let's try join
01:00:16 <Sgeo> IN: scratchpad [ { { 1 2 } { 3 4 } { 5 6 } } mamb mamb 1array ] areset .
01:00:17 <Sgeo> { 1 2 3 4 5 6 }
01:01:10 <FireFly> Is that Joy or Factor or something?
01:02:25 <kmc> that should be in the /topic
01:02:35 <kmc> $SGEO_LANGUAGE
01:02:51 <Bike> but where else would i learn about omphaloskepsis
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01:04:24 <Sgeo> I can't write a with-monad
01:04:32 <Sgeo> Because the list monad in Factor is too broken for that
01:08:40 <Sgeo> The next time I hear about someone doing a "straight translation" of monads from Haskell to another language, I will slap them
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01:19:52 <Sgeo> This thing is acting a bit like do notation except possibly nicer
01:20:22 <Sgeo> In a more applicative language it might be nicer?
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01:22:32 <Sgeo> So, reader monad test ?
01:22:36 <monqy> what are you even talking about
01:23:18 <monqy> 17:04:24 <Sgeo> I can't write a with-monad
01:23:19 <monqy> 17:04:32 <Sgeo> Because the list monad in Factor is too broken for that
01:23:19 <monqy> 17:08:40 <Sgeo> The next time I hear about someone doing a "straight translation" of monads from Haskell to another language, I will slap them
01:23:22 <monqy> what does this mean
01:23:26 <monqy> 17:19:52 <Sgeo> This thing is acting a bit like do notation except possibly nicer
01:23:29 <monqy> 17:19:53 <Sgeo> I think
01:23:32 <monqy> 17:20:22 <Sgeo> In a more applicative language it might be nicer?
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01:23:51 <elliott> it just looks like idiom brackets but noisier to me
01:24:04 <elliott> not convinced it is possible to represent join with this notatoin
01:24:20 <Sgeo> IN: scratchpad [ ask mamb 15 + reader-monad return ] areset 5 run-reader .
01:27:07 <Sgeo> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=2821
01:27:35 <Sgeo> Oh, whoops, prettyprint's not needed in there
01:27:37 <monqy> could you explain what these things mean
01:27:40 <monqy> & what they are doing
01:28:00 <Sgeo> areset and ashift are just me making delimited continuation operators that work the way I want them to
01:28:23 <Sgeo> Using a dynamically-scoped variable rather than actually passing quotations around on the stack
01:29:30 <monqy> i'm not a "factor guy" i can't look at this and immediately see what it means
01:29:44 <Sgeo> (define (mamb ma) (shift k (bind ma k)))
01:31:38 <Sgeo> mamb calls bind with its argument and the current continuation
01:31:48 <monqy> yes i know but what is mamb supposed to do conceptually...
01:32:04 <elliott> :t \ma -> Cont (\k -> (ma >>= k))
01:32:05 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `Cont'
01:32:05 <lambdabot> `Const' (imported from Control.Applicative),
01:32:09 <elliott> :t \ma -> cont (\k -> (ma >>= k))
01:32:37 <elliott> :t let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in (+) <$> wtf [1, 2, 3] <*> wtf [4, 5, 6]
01:32:55 <elliott> :t let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in evalCont $ (+) <$> wtf [1, 2, 3] <*> wtf [4, 5, 6]
01:33:01 <elliott> :t let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in flip runCont ?f $ (+) <$> wtf [1, 2, 3] <*> wtf [4, 5, 6]
01:33:08 <elliott> > let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in flip runCont return $ (+) <$> wtf [1, 2, 3] <*> wtf [4, 5, 6]
01:33:35 <FireFly> Where can I read up on what this mamb/amb thing is?
01:33:35 <elliott> > let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in flip runCont return $ (+) <$> wtf [1, 2, 3] <*> wtf [4, 5, 6]
01:33:42 <elliott> > (+) <$> [1,2,3] <*> [4,5,6]
01:33:53 <elliott> Sgeo: tada, was that really so hard you couldn't have done it originally
01:33:55 <monqy> FireFly: nobody knows what mamb is, amb is well-documented
01:34:52 <elliott> Sgeo: anyway see http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/12/mother-of-all-monads.html
01:34:57 <Sgeo> elliott, that <$> and <*> for the wtf usage is only necessary because you need to use the Cont monad along with <$> and <*> to get shift and reset
01:35:13 <elliott> Sgeo: your mamb is exactly i
01:35:23 <elliott> you don't understand my point at all
01:35:29 <Sgeo> elliott, isn't that exactly what I am doing? Taking nice syntax for the Cont monad and turning it into nice syntax for all monads
01:35:39 <elliott> nice syntax for the Cont monad = nice syntax for all monads
01:35:52 <elliott> what you've done is reinvent idiom brackets, which work for Cont too
01:37:03 <elliott> where you mark the impure expressions
01:37:08 <elliott> but the translation is basically the same
01:37:35 <elliott> (| f x y z |) = f <$> x' <*> y' <*> z' where (~x)' = x; y' = pure y
01:37:57 <elliott> you get join too I guess but it's kind of freaky
01:38:09 <elliott> > let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in wtf (wtf [1,2,3])
01:38:39 <elliott> > let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in wtf [1,2,3] >>= twf
01:38:40 <elliott> > let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in wtf [1,2,3] >>= wtf
01:38:42 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [b0])
01:38:44 <elliott> :t let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in wtf [1,2,3] >>= wtf
01:38:49 <elliott> :t let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in wtf [1,2,3]
01:39:03 <elliott> :t let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in wtf (wtf [[1,2],[3]])
01:39:04 <lambdabot> Num t => Cont (ContT [b1] Identity b) [t]
01:39:13 <elliott> :t let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in wtf [[1,2],[3]] >>= wtf
01:39:23 <elliott> > let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in runCont (wtf [[1,2],[3]] >>= wtf) id
01:39:24 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [b0])
01:39:32 <elliott> > let wtf ma = cont (\k -> (ma >>= k)) in runCont (wtf [[1,2],[3]] >>= wtf) return
01:39:57 <elliott> Sgeo: anyway this sounds kind of awful in practice
01:40:11 <elliott> having to write putStrLn (foo (foo getLine)) everywhere
01:40:16 <elliott> but you should take a look at eff and frank
01:57:09 <Sgeo> When you say frank I keep thinking that units calculation thingy
01:57:20 <zzo38> (Cont x) is like (Codensity (Const x)) so they are Kan extensions. As they said, everything is Kan extensions.
02:01:50 <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news
02:02:38 <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
02:02:44 <Fiora> if it also talked about how sexism in geek circles didn't exist it would get at least 2 billion
02:02:47 <kmc> that's why i'm not going to do it
02:03:03 <Bike> also i thought javascript had semicolon removal rules
02:03:26 <kmc> Fiora: straight white programmers with self-diagnosed aspbergers are the *real* persecuted minority!
02:03:39 <Fiora> oh wow I still have this thing bookmarked I saw
02:03:41 <Fiora> http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=193b767bbb3b0eb0d949d5924&id=0c3a567f95&e=5603c292b3
02:03:50 <Jafet> I would think that the prospect of getting a billion comments on hacker news is enough motivation to not do it
02:03:54 <zzo38> kmc: You might be correct. Maybe...
02:03:57 <Fiora> A Story About Sexism in Tech Filled With Sexist Comments Denying Sexism in Tech
02:04:07 <Bike> whoa, it's like i'm really reading it
02:04:25 <kmc> Bike: it does, but omitting the semicolons is super tacky
02:04:39 <Bike> «Startup Celebrity says, "Bold statement, out of context"» is "Startup Celebrity" a real thing :(
02:04:46 <kmc> or anyway JSLint will complain about it
02:04:48 <Bike> kmc: yeah well so's lisp ohhhhh
02:04:53 <Fiora> I suppose someone like zuck counts?
02:05:00 <zzo38> JavaScript semicolon removal rules might be the worst part
02:05:04 <Bike> "How I Left My Jobs as a Consultant to Found a Startup"
02:05:06 <kmc> Douglas Crockford is kinda crazy and super opinionated about minor syntax
02:05:33 <kmc> Fiora: i cried the day I saw someone on HN list Zuckerberg in the same list as RMS, Donald Knuth, John Carmak, and Linus Torvalds
02:06:01 <Bike> haha, did they really? rad
02:06:17 <kmc> How I Left My Job At A Startup Providing Services to Startups to Join a Startup Providing Services to Startups Providing Services to Startups
02:06:29 <kmc> if you're not working for at least a startup³ then you're just a MONKEY IN A CAGE man
02:06:39 <Fiora> I think HN's definition of celebrity involves making a lot of money and flipping a worthless startup for billions of dollars to some large company
02:06:59 <kmc> Fiora: thanks for the link, this is hilariou
02:07:13 <Bike> yeah i started reading HN for technical posts and then i realized that it was mostly startup crud i didn't care about
02:07:24 <kmc> Bike: let me know if you find a good venue for technical posts
02:07:30 <Fiora> I read it a looong time ago but it really seemed to stop posting the interesting things
02:07:37 <Bike> kmc: well, i read l-t-u but i don't think that's quite the same
02:07:37 <kmc> i think some bayesian filtering on HN might be the way to go
02:07:45 <Jafet> Most technical posts are also worthless crud not worth caring about
02:07:48 <Fiora> nowadays whenever I look it's like a 5% chance I find anything technical, otherwise it's all startup drama stuff
02:07:55 <kmc> i want to write a program which will feed me HN posts at a constant slow rate and I can flag them as shitty
02:07:58 <Fiora> and oh god the comments are horrid
02:08:12 <Bike> Jafet: yes, but crud about startups not worth caring about transcends standard crud.
02:09:01 <kmc> "How I remapped my capslock key to be both ESC and Ctrl" yessssssssss
02:09:05 <kmc> i should do that
02:09:07 <Fiora> I remember talking to someone at one point who actually told me she much preferred reddit /prog/, which says something about HN <_>
02:09:08 <kmc> there's a thing
02:09:15 <Jafet> Thanks for underlining your insight
02:09:18 <kmc> yeah i ragequit /r/programming a while ago
02:09:43 <kmc> http://www.reddit.com/r/coding seems reasonably high quality but has like 12 posts a month
02:09:51 <Bike> underlines are important, man. important
02:10:11 <Jafet> kmc: "therefore" hth
02:10:14 <Fiora> I really wish there was a good place for just, cool interesting sciency technology things
02:10:26 <Bike> "Are these glasses useful while coding, or is this a pseudo-science?"
02:10:28 <Fiora> without startup stuff, without neckbeards arguing about linux distros, without 500 sexist comments on everything
02:10:41 <kmc> i basically count on my friends / aquaintances talking about interesting posts online
02:11:06 <Bike> obviously what we need is something that's exactly like word of mouth, but with a better logo
02:11:10 <zzo38> Just because something is not science, does not necessarily make it pseudoscience.
02:11:25 <quintopia> wow what an interesting channel today
02:11:29 <kmc> maybe i should get on twitter and follow some people on twitter
02:11:44 <Sgeo> I'm on Twitter
02:11:52 <Sgeo> I should hook up my Tumblr to Twitter
02:12:04 <kmc> i,i http://jerkcity.com/_jerkcity4960.html
02:12:11 <Fiora> I get some things from tumblr at least
02:12:16 <Bike> oh, r/prog has a post on "implementing dependent type theory, part I" so that works
02:12:18 <Fiora> I follow people who post lots of astrophysicsy and astronomy stuff
02:12:44 <Fiora> christinetheastrophysicist, astrotastic, astronemma, etc
02:13:49 <elliott> Why Go Can't Scale Past 2 Billion Users
02:14:02 <elliott> Voyager Season One Has Left Cable Syndication
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02:24:55 <Sgeo> elliott, which is likely to be easier for me to understand first, eff or frank?
02:25:50 <elliott> see https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/pub/Frank/test.fk
02:25:54 <elliott> or https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/pub/Frank/TFM.pdf
02:26:09 <elliott> http://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-ii-introducing-eff/
02:26:49 <Sgeo> That post says that eff has changed considerably
02:27:43 <Sgeo> eep that :: confused me for a second
02:27:55 <Sgeo> It's almost like Haskell is the US of the functional world
02:28:14 <Sgeo> In that it uses :: for types and : for con, where everyone else uses : for types and :: for con
02:28:18 <Bike> what the hell does that me- oh
02:28:36 <kmc> HASKELL #1 FUCK YEAH FREEDOM
02:29:04 <shachaf> That's taken from Miranda.
02:29:26 <Bike> i thought it was going to be some convoluted political metaphor. java is china, or something. and DEBT is crosshatched everywhere
02:29:41 <kmc> the Haskell 98 report is divinely inspired and is a perfect foundation for civilization
02:29:58 <Bike> the pure city on the hill
02:29:58 <kmc> you can pry my monomorphism restriction from my cold dead hands
02:30:45 <Jafet> Haskell 2010 followers are mormons?
02:30:54 <shachaf> kmc: uh pretty sure you mean the haskell 1.4 report
02:31:18 <Bike> shachaf: that can be the articles of confederation.
02:36:32 <Sgeo> x.lookup() + x.lookup()
02:36:43 <Sgeo> I assume that that's the implicit sequencing that it's warning about/
02:39:40 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora update
02:40:43 <shachaf> Sgeo: Your new job is to tell me when GitHub comes back up.
02:41:13 <Bike> elliot: update
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02:44:31 <Sgeo> elliott, I guess I should read the theory stuff too?
02:44:39 <Sgeo> And then consider how to implement this in some language
02:45:19 <elliott> implementation is basically trivial in terms of a free monad
02:46:48 <zzo38> What are you implementing?
02:46:50 <Sgeo> I have no idea what a free monad is
02:47:06 <elliott> data Free f a = Return a | Free (f (Free f a))
02:47:08 <zzo38> data Free f x = Pure x | Free (f (Free f x));
02:47:29 <elliott> cf. http://hackage.haskell.org/package/free, http://hackage.haskell.org/package/operational (equivalent)
02:47:38 <shachaf> Free f a = (a, f (a, f (a, f (...
02:48:09 <Sgeo> So, it lets you use any type constructor in a monadic way somehow?
02:48:47 <zzo38> And then join (Free x) = Free (join <$> x); I think
02:49:49 <Sgeo> elliott, is this effects stuff in eff just a nicer way to define a monad?
02:49:57 <shachaf> Why did I write Cofree. :-(
02:50:08 <elliott> Sgeo: I don't understand what you mean by that.
02:50:09 <shachaf> Free f a = Either a (f (Either a (f (Either a (f ...
02:50:20 <zzo38> It requires f to be a functor, but you can also use the right and left Yoneda
02:50:33 * Sgeo is unsure if the "magical" choice thing that always selects te value that leads to the lowest result is a monad
02:50:56 <Sgeo> Yeah, I see how to do it as a monad
02:51:10 <Sgeo> Erm, I mean, by defining bind
02:52:21 <zzo38> For example if you have data X :: * -> * where { GetChar :: X Char; PutChar :: Char -> X (); }; and then you can make (Free (CoYoneda X))
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02:53:45 <Sgeo> "Eff has a builting effect io"
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02:55:20 <zzo38> So it is another use of GADT
02:59:59 <Sgeo> I'm going to be patient and try to understand the math
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03:23:33 <Sgeo> I don't quite understand this notation fi:Ani→A
03:23:53 <Sgeo> I gather that f is a function, but what does A^n_i -> A mean?
03:23:59 <Sgeo> http://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-i-theory/
03:24:06 <kmc> https://twitter.com/HackerNewsTips
03:24:14 <Sgeo> "An algebra (A,f1,…,fk) is a set A together with maps fi:Ani→A for i=1,…,k, called the operations. "
03:24:48 <Sgeo> Oh, I guess that f_i can take a number of arguments?
03:25:09 <Sgeo> A number of arguments fixed for each individual f_i?
03:25:49 <monqy> f_i is a function from A^{n_i} to A. depending on what n_i is, A^{n_i} is either the set of tuples of n_i A's, or functions from the set n_i to A
03:26:17 <Sgeo> The former, I think
03:27:02 <monqy> if n_i is a number you can pretend it means finite set with that many elements and then it's ~"the same thing"
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03:27:58 <Sgeo> The person is now doing arities that are arbitrary sets
03:36:33 * Sgeo decides to just skip that post and look at Frank
03:37:47 <Sgeo> https://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/conor.mcbride/pub/Frank/test.fk
03:38:09 <monqy> yes i know what frank is
03:39:48 <Sgeo> Nat + Nat [] Nat
03:39:56 <Sgeo> I don't understand that example
03:40:02 <monqy> what's not to understand about it
03:40:21 <Sgeo> Oh, is it a type declaration?
03:40:28 <monqy> you should read the notes
03:40:39 <Sgeo> "Here are some perfectly ordinary functions."
03:40:51 <Sgeo> Oh, after that
03:42:23 <Sgeo> The dull function is rather ... dull
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03:54:30 <Sgeo> Trying to be sure I understand the precedence here
03:54:34 <Sgeo> state _ [set s ? k] = state s ? k ()
03:54:41 <Sgeo> state _ [set s ? k] = state (s ? k ())
03:54:57 <Sgeo> erm, wait, that doesn't work...
03:55:01 <Sgeo> Now I'm very confused
03:55:21 <monqy> hi im back whats up
03:57:00 <Sgeo> That state function
03:57:15 <Sgeo> In that branch, it's calling state again, right? But with what arguments?
03:57:17 <monqy> ok i'll try & explain it
03:57:30 <monqy> ok elliott explains it
03:57:52 <elliott> which you can think of as state s (? (k ())
03:59:04 <Sgeo> I was wondering if it was maybe (state s) ? (k ())
03:59:22 <Sgeo> I take it it's not, though
04:00:15 <Sgeo> Would reading the PDF be easier?
04:02:26 <monqy> Sgeo: state describes how to run a stateful request. if your request is to set the state to s & your continuation is k, you recursively do stuff with your state being s (the thing you set your state to) and whatever you get when you pass unit to your continuation
04:04:33 <monqy> Sgeo: what in particular about that doesn't make sense?
04:05:41 <monqy> & i forget if the pdf is "easier" or not
04:05:54 <monqy> but there's nothing challenging about test.fk.....
04:06:54 <Sgeo> I guess what the ? operation does, exactly
04:06:59 <Sgeo> Why isn't it just k ()
04:08:32 <elliott> turns the stateful computation into its "interpretation"
04:08:40 <elliott> state s (k ()) would execute k ()
04:08:46 <elliott> which is totally not what you want
04:08:55 <elliott> because, remember, the whole point of this is that you (Sgeo) want applicative effects
04:09:03 <elliott> s.t. you can write f (g x) (h x) where g and h are effectful
04:09:12 <elliott> so interpreter ? action calls interpreter with the [] stuff
04:09:26 <elliott> so yes ? is a binary operator here
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04:30:14 <Sgeo> shachaf, are you the person who asked to be on a GitHub back up list?
04:30:36 <shachaf> Now please take me *off* the GitHub list.
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04:58:41 <Sgeo> I might end up looking at both the PDF and the example thing
04:58:56 <Sgeo> I seem to learn best by reading as many different documentation sources as possible
05:05:10 <Sgeo> Hmm, I think I get the template thing now
05:18:38 <Sgeo> The PDF didn't really explain much
05:24:44 <zzo38> The fifty moves rule, threefold repetition rule, and perpetual check rule, do not necessarily require all three; either one of the first two will do.
05:26:07 <zzo38> Although having all three does sometimes change things, the game would work without.
05:29:56 <kmc> 'Lugging around a SOAP API in 2012? Replace all occurrences of "SOAP" with "Hand Crafted Vintage XML", and lure in the Portland tech scene.'
05:30:20 <kmc> 'The SaaS field is getting very overcrowded. Consider a Software as a Faustian Bargain approach to your product instead.'
05:30:52 <elliott> shachaf: hey, you can't ask to be off the list
05:30:54 <elliott> never works for anyone else
05:31:45 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `LEft'
05:31:45 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `Left' (imported from Data.Either)
05:31:46 <lambdabot> (b -> Either a b1) -> Either a b -> Either a b1
05:32:08 <elliott> :t either Left (?f :: s -> Either t a)
05:32:09 <lambdabot> Unbound implicit parameter (?f::s -> Either t a1)
05:32:09 <lambdabot> arising from a use of implicit parameter `?f'
05:32:09 <lambdabot> In the second argument of `either', namely
05:32:17 <elliott> :t \f -> either Left (f :: s -> Either t a)
05:32:19 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `t' with `s -> Either t1 a1'
05:32:19 <lambdabot> `t' is a rigid type variable bound by
05:32:19 <lambdabot> the inferred type of it :: t -> Either a b -> Either a b1
05:32:28 <elliott> :t \(f :: s -> Either t a) -> either Left f
05:32:29 <lambdabot> (s -> Either t a) -> Either t s -> Either t a
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05:55:54 * Sgeo thinks that eff is more understandable
06:31:13 <zzo38> Is this data types OK? data Move = Resign | Draw | Castle CastlingSide | Move Square Square Piece deriving (Eq, Ord, Read, Show); type NAG = Word8; data AnnMove = AnnMove { annMove :: Move, annNAG :: NAG, annVar :: MoveList, annText :: String } deriving (Eq, Read, Show); type MoveList = [AnnMove];
06:35:39 <Jafet> Chess is overcomplicated
06:40:54 <kmc> "Ilyumzhinov claims to have been abducted from his Moscow apartment, in 1997, by extraterrestrials, who gave him a tour of the galaxy and taught him that chess came from outer space."
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06:42:29 <Jafet> That's made-up nonsense. Everyone knows it was go.
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06:57:59 <zzo38> Yes, it was go, if any of them came from outer space, which it probably didn't. Is this like a counterfactual question?
07:26:50 <zzo38> I read that in one chess tournament, a player complained that the food given to his opponent was used as a code to give advice on what move to play.
07:27:15 <Bike> but... it's not a hidden information game anyway.
07:28:43 <zzo38> Nevertheless, you are not supposed to have advice from other players in nearly any tournament of any game, and time trouble can get in the way of things too.
07:29:16 <Bike> i just can't imagine mere advice being worth such an esoteric system.
07:29:38 <zzo38> I don't know if it is true, but apparently someone complained about that.
07:29:48 <Fiora> there was an incident where a player was found cheating by hearing coughs from someone in the audience
07:29:57 <Fiora> the coughing person was hooked up to a chess engine that was analyzing the game board
07:30:10 <Bike> that's some oceans eleven shit
07:30:13 <Fiora> there was also a guy who went to the bathroom and used some hidden device to try to communicate
07:31:30 <zzo38> I actually (not knowing of this incident) once tried to cheat on a multiple-choice section of an exam by coughing.
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07:33:40 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topalov#Kramnik.E2.80.93Topalov_match_controversy
07:34:40 <Fiora> "During the tournament at Subroto Park, Umakant Sharma was caught receiving instructions from an accomplice using a chess computer via a Bluetooth-enabled device which had been sewn into his cap.[14][15] His accomplices were outside the building, and were relaying moves from a computer simulation." omg
07:34:53 <Fiora> " Officials became suspicious after Sharma had made unusually large gains in rating points during the previous 18 months, even qualifying for the national championship.[15] Umakant began the year with an average rating of 1933, and in 64 games gained over 500 points to attain a rating of 2484. Officials received multiple written complaints alleging that Umakant's moves were in exactly the same sequence suggested by the chess computer
07:35:02 <Fiora> " Eventually, in the seventh round of the tournament, Indian Air Force officials searched the players on the top eight boards with a metal detector "
07:35:20 <Bike> i... how much money is at stake here
07:35:43 <Fiora> " Their plan involved one player, Cyril Marzolo, following the tournament at home and using the computer program to decide the best moves. He would send the moves by SMS to another player, Arnaud Hauchard, who would then stand or sit at various tables as a signal to the player, Sebastian Feller, to make a certain move."
07:35:50 <Fiora> (FIDE olympiad tournament 2010)
07:35:57 <Sgeo> I doubt that people would cheat at Arimaa or Go like that. Mostly because computers still aren't that great at those games
07:36:30 <Bike> also because less people care about those games. here in eastern europe, anyway
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07:37:28 <Sgeo> That's a boring reason for there to be fewer cheaters
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07:37:41 <Bike> the idea of someone cheatingly getting advice from a Go program, and it being shitty advice, is pretty funny though.
07:37:52 <Fiora> I think it's just a really popular sport (relatively?) so like it's more common that it's bigger news I guess
07:38:09 * Fiora throws butterflies at Sgeo
07:38:23 <Bike> how the hell do you throw a butterfly?
07:38:48 <Fiora> sorry, crawl reference ~_~
07:39:20 <Sgeo> Fiora, have you ever watched a League of Legends video? Those get narrated as though it's a sport
07:39:43 <zzo38> A sufficiently powerful computer would be able to solve all of these games.
07:39:44 <Fiora> I used to watch a lot of starcraft casts
07:39:54 <zzo38> However I don't know if the universe has such a capacity or not.
07:40:41 <Fiora> I'm kinda surprised so many people are cheating by just plugging in the moves from a computer. that's so lazy even @_@
07:40:42 <Bike> listening to league of legends videos is quite saddening.
07:40:45 <Fiora> they could at least do some centauring
07:41:07 <Fiora> human-computer collaboration, where you use the computer as an exploratory tool combined with human thought
07:41:12 <Bike> do you mean having a chess grandmaster dress up as a horse and play as a horse
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07:41:26 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World like this game (since they allowed computer usage) was basically a massive centaur-fest
07:41:27 <Bike> yeah, well. human interface is hard, man.
07:41:46 <Fiora> each side spending days throwing things into computers and analyzing lines of moves 20 or 30 long and doing all kinds of crazy things
07:41:51 <Fiora> kasparov wrote a whole book on it too, it was cool
07:42:01 <Bike> is your copy autographed
07:42:18 <Fiora> I am not that much of a fangirl okay
07:42:19 <Fiora> not QUITE that much
07:42:33 <Bike> also, isn't kasparov kind of a nutty guy
07:42:40 <Fiora> he is kinda nutty, yeah
07:42:44 <Fiora> his chess books and writing are good though
07:43:08 <zzo38> When playing chess by mail, it is sometimes allowed to take advice from other people and computers.
07:43:44 <zzo38> Fiora: Have any of the people in that game programmed the computers they used?
07:43:58 <Sgeo> Bike, how are LoL videos saddening?
07:44:02 <Fiora> that big one? given the World was like tens of thousands of people working together probably yes? XD
07:44:10 <Fiora> I'd imagine there were at least some chess AI programmers in that bunch
07:44:26 <Fiora> kasparov was using Deep Junior
07:44:29 <zzo38> OK, yes I guess you are probably correct.
07:44:46 <Bike> Sgeo: the level of taking things seriously involved. it's pretty alien to me.
07:45:19 <Bike> like you said, they treat it very much as a sport.
07:46:06 <Sgeo> It kind of scares me away a bit from wanting to try it. Since it's a team game, I'd be afraid of my teammates getting mad at me for my incompetence
07:46:11 <Fiora> I tried watching a dota game broadcast thing once, maybe it was dota 2
07:46:23 <Fiora> even though I had played some dota it was really hard to keep track of because there were 10 players involved doing all kinds of different things
07:46:28 <Sgeo> Also, my current computer can't handle it, so there's that
07:46:35 <Fiora> so it was really confusing
07:46:50 <Fiora> whereas starcraft was 1v1
07:47:00 <zzo38> With sufficient time you could analyze it manually, but the computer is much faster.
07:47:07 <Bike> It also seems like the kind of game where people complain about things being nerfed or balanced or whatever constantly. Which is pretty annoying. I can barely handle en passant.
07:47:23 <Fiora> Bike: bishops are op . nerf bishops
07:47:28 <zzo38> Why are you barely handle en passant?
07:47:29 <Fiora> rooks need a boost.
07:47:47 <Bike> zzo38: making a bit of a joke about the origins of that particular rule.
07:48:12 <zzo38> Fiora: There are many chess variants with many different kind of pieces
07:49:11 <Fiora> yeah, I know there's one with um... an archbishop? which is like this knight+bishop thing I think
07:49:32 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_(chess)
07:49:33 <zzo38> Yes; and the knight+rook is sometimes called chancellor.
07:49:47 <Bike> Are there any chess variants with a "pope" piece? And, say, papal elections, or a college of cardinals.
07:49:57 <Bike> I could go for capturing some antipopes.
07:50:03 <Fiora> ohhh, they call chess variant pieces "fairy chess pieces"
07:50:12 <Fiora> and then there's bughouse chess which I remember people playing in college
07:50:13 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, I think in some games, the king which has bishop moves in addition, is called the pope.
07:50:17 <Fiora> which was kind of terrifyingly intimidating
07:50:26 <Bike> ironically, fairies actually just play Scrabble
07:50:30 <Fiora> I like chess960, that one's a fun variant though
07:50:35 <Bike> zzo38: i see. weird
07:51:06 <Bike> Fiora: is that one of the random ones?
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07:51:28 <Fiora> it's the random one bobby fischer came up with that has 960 possible starting positions
07:51:34 <Fiora> so that you have to play without opening books
07:51:50 <Fiora> it makes things really fun and screwy and is great for people like me who can't remember opening books
07:53:12 <zzo38> I also like it the game which involves some random information, although what I like best is which has partially hidden information, as well as some random chance, but mostly involving skill.
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07:55:44 <kmc> Sgeo: computers are good at go now
07:55:46 <kmc> http://blog.printf.net/articles/2012/02/23/computers-are-very-good-at-the-game-of-go/
07:56:42 <Bike> aw man. i'm running out of options for confusing malignant AIs.
07:57:46 <Fiora> still pretty far behind chess though
07:57:49 <Fiora> considerig um rybka
07:57:50 <Bike> http://www.gokgs.com/servlet/graph/zen19-en_US.png hot damn!
07:57:52 <kmc> http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Portal_3d66bd_2045584.jpg
07:58:43 <Fiora> though there's now houdini too which is all kinds of terrifying
07:59:09 <Bike> AIs are notoriously bad at nontraditional set theory
07:59:45 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWdMqvGMxF4 this is a fun game if I remember right
07:59:59 <Fiora> houdini sacrifices three pawns for no apparent advantage whatsoever and then wins dozens of moves later
08:00:02 <zzo38> I think in some kinds of set theory, the set of all sets does contain itself. In other kinds, it is not a meaningful statement. I think.
08:00:29 <Bike> "This makes me sad because while I wasn’t foolish enough to believe that humans would always be better at Go than computers, I did think that the process of making a computer that is very good at Go might be equivalent to the process of acquiring a powerful understanding of how human cognition works;" aww.
08:00:34 <zzo38> Fiora: Do you have the PGN of the game you are refering to?
08:00:44 <Fiora> the About has a pgn I think
08:01:04 <Bike> zzo38: usually you have a "class" of all sets instead, but it varies. in ZFC it's not a meaningful statement because you can't define a set of all sets. so, yes
08:01:06 <Fiora> gosh now I want to go back and watch more of kingscrusher videos. he's fun
08:02:17 <Fiora> the game made him really happy because a reason a lot of chess people disliked computers is they seemed to demonstrate that a lot of wonderful sacrifices, gambits, and so on were unsound given enough analysis
08:02:18 <Bike> m, i think the author of this article may be slightly underestimating how interesting you can make writing a sudoku solver
08:02:31 <Fiora> but this was a game between two of the top level computers where one of them pulls off gambits and then wins
08:02:32 <zzo38> Bike: Well, I think that if you have a sufficiently powerful computer, it can solve the game and win perfectly; no undertsanding of human cognition or of human anything is required. However, I don't think any computer is that powerful and I am also unsure if the universe has the capacity for such a computer.
08:03:04 <kmc> non well founded set theory is the kind where sets can contain themselves
08:03:31 <Bike> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockhead_(computer_system)
08:03:51 <zzo38> Fiora: Were they two separate computers or two programs running on the same computer?
08:04:03 <Fiora> two separate computers but I assume with similar power
08:05:06 <zzo38> Bike: It also mentions the Chinese room; something else I have read about in another book.
08:05:19 <Bike> it comes up a lot, yes
08:05:56 <zzo38> And I see the Blockhead thought experiment too now!
08:05:58 <Bike> anyway, i'm more interested in intelligence that doesn't take O(fuckoff) space, is all
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08:15:13 <zzo38> I read also that, in one chess game, he was playing against someone who always moved the c-pawn on the first move and wanted them to play something different, so they stuck the pawn to c2 so that it won't move.
08:21:51 <Jafet> To force them to play something original, like e4?
08:23:04 <zzo38> It doesn't matter what; they just didn't want him to play the same move he always played.
08:23:12 <zzo38> At least, it is what I think. I am unsure.
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14:48:49 <FreeFull> Humans are still better than computers at sokoban
14:50:06 <fizzie> Humans are still better than computers at getting drunk.
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16:05:29 <Taneb> I've messed up my video drivers and now my computer thinks I want an 800x600 screen
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16:06:32 <Taneb> And I have no idea what to dooooo
16:11:49 <ais523> reinstall the drivers?
16:11:49 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:14:02 <Taneb> ais523, I'll give that a go
16:15:38 <Taneb> In other news, I've updated that Haskell package I made a while back but haven't uploaded it for a reason.
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17:15:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: hm i haven't personally read that stuff, but if you want to mix delimited continuations and monads you might want to look at filinski's famous proof that pure monads can be implemented with delimited continuations...
17:15:43 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo hm i haven't personally read that stuff, but if you want to mix delimited continuations and monads you might want to look at filinski's famous proof that pure monads can be implemented with delimited continuations...
17:17:53 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo btw if you start with a _monad transformer_, then amb should be obvious if you use [] on the bottom.
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17:24:55 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
17:25:01 <HackEgo> 883) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
17:25:31 * oerjan wonders if those are the first color codes in the quotes database
17:25:35 <Sgeo> oerjan, I don't really understand monad transformers well enough
17:25:36 <lambdabot> Sgeo: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:25:41 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9m 58s ago: hm i haven't personally read that stuff, but if you want to mix delimited continuations and monads you might want to look at filinski's famous proof that pure monads can be
17:25:41 <lambdabot> implemented with delimited continuations...
17:25:41 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7m 47s ago: btw if you start with a _monad transformer_, then amb should be obvious if you use [] on the bottom.
17:27:22 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 2) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 3) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he sh
17:28:04 <HackEgo> 269) <elliott> ais523: quick, say something funny <oklopol> something funny hagrea:D <oklopol> can'tä sopt laughitn \ 320) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 321) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsne
17:29:34 <HackEgo> 320) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 321) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django
17:29:53 <ais523> what's up with the recursive django quotes?
17:30:07 <oerjan> `run quote 320 | hexdump
17:30:09 <HackEgo> 0000000 3233 2930 3c20 7063 6572 7373 7965 203e \ 0000010 7160 6f75 6574 6420 616a 676e 206f 3c20 \ 0000020 6148 6b63 6745 3e6f e220 8b80 3533 2932 \ 0000030 3c20 6c6f 6e73 7265 203e 6a64 6e61 6f67 \ 0000040 6920 2073 616e 656d 2064 6661 6574 2072 \ 0000050 2061 6570 7372 6e6f 203f 3c20 6c6f 6e73 \ 0000060 7265 203e 6874 756f 6867 2074 7469 7720 \
17:30:26 <oerjan> hm what was that option
17:30:55 <ais523> `run quote 320 | od -t x1
17:30:56 <HackEgo> 0000000 33 32 30 29 20 3c 63 70 72 65 73 73 65 79 3e 20 \ 0000020 60 71 75 6f 74 65 20 64 6a 61 6e 67 6f 20 20 3c \ 0000040 48 61 63 6b 45 67 6f 3e 20 e2 80 8b 33 35 32 29 \ 0000060 20 3c 6f 6c 73 6e 65 72 3e 20 64 6a 61 6e 67 6f \ 0000100 20 69 73 20 6e 61 6d 65 64 20 61 66 74 65 72 20 \ 0000120 61 20 70 65 72 73 6f 6e 3f 20 20 3c 6f 6c 73 6e \ 00
17:31:10 <oerjan> no, that is definitely not what i wanted
17:31:13 <ais523> there's an 80 8b in there
17:31:16 <oerjan> `run quote 320 | hexdump -c
17:31:18 <HackEgo> 0000000 3 2 0 ) < c p r e s s e y > \ 0000010 ` q u o t e d j a n g o < \ 0000020 H a c k E g o > 200 213 3 5 2 ) \ 0000030 < o l s n e r > d j a n g o \ 0000040 i s n a m e d a
17:31:41 <oerjan> is that HackEgo's zero-width space that got included
17:32:06 <ais523> that may be the zero width space I put into a quote ages ago to troll elliott
17:32:25 <ais523> because he was really insisting on two spaces between quotes
17:32:52 <oerjan> um it's just after Hackego>
17:32:55 <Sgeo> Closing one Chrome window should NOT quit Chrome
17:32:59 <oerjan> that's not between quotes
17:33:28 <elliott> (IIRC it's actually just a copy-paste problem.)
17:33:33 <elliott> But it's quoted now, so you can't fix it.
17:34:12 <oerjan> elliott: well it's not really a problem if HackEgo actually said it, is it :P
17:35:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
17:35:49 <fizzie> "Your daily network usage time limit has been reached" ifconfig wlan0 hw ether <previous MAC+1> "logged in to hotspot". There are *some* good things in this phone.
17:35:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
17:36:28 <fizzie> I'm a bit surprised busybox ifconfig managed that, though.
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17:37:10 <ais523> fizzie: it's the sort of thing busybox might need to do, though
17:37:20 <ais523> it was originally designed as a recovery shell
17:37:22 <HackEgo> 883) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
17:37:48 <oerjan> and indeed those were the first color codes
17:37:55 <ais523> fixing network problems is quote plausible in a recovery shell, especially if the system /normally/ uses network boot
17:39:12 <fizzie> ais523: I suppose. Their ifconfig usage message was only "ifconfig interface [address]", though, which was a bit worrying. Fortunately I managed to recall the syntax.
17:39:32 <ais523> yeah, usable usage messages /aren't/ something you need to do busybox's job
17:41:19 <fizzie> Unfortunately the uplink on this wifi is really horrible. Takes about two minutes after writing it for an IRC comment to appear.
17:41:28 <fizzie> (Yeah yeah mosh yeah.)
17:42:00 <ais523> is that total up+down latency? or just up?
17:42:36 <fizzie> Two minutes was perhaps a bit generous.
17:42:58 <oerjan> <kmc> How I Left My Job At A Startup Providing Services to Startups to Join a Startup Providing Services to Startups Providing Services to Startups <-- startup and inception are synonyms, right?
17:44:48 <Sgeo> My mouse cursor just turned into a vertical line with diagonal spikes
17:45:07 <fizzie> I don't really know. But it is slow.
17:46:04 <oerjan> Sgeo: sounds like part of an scp
17:47:02 <fizzie> (This is a Stockholm-Helsinki ferry, and the wifi was quite speedy when it was in the harbour. Don't know what they're using for connectivity on the sea.)
17:51:27 <fizzie> I suppose. Though I do still get GPRS/EDGE according to the phone.
17:52:03 <fizzie> There's 3G around Åland.
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18:08:06 <kmc> "To land, the craft had to slow its speed and pitch the fuselage until the craft was vertical. Power could then be reduced and it would descend until the landing gear rested on the ground. This would have been a tricky and probably dangerous maneuver given that the pilot would be seated facing upward and the ground would be behind his head at this stage."
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18:32:28 <oerjan> <elliott> Why Go Can't Scale Past 2 Billion Users <-- this was rather more intriguing before i realized you were referring to the programming language, not the game
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18:46:05 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Triebfl%C3%BCgel
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19:11:30 <oerjan> <Bike> like you said, they treat it very much as a sport. <-- curiously chess isn't part of the sport organizations in norway, which i understand is not the case in other places. on the flip side magnus carlsen says he'd never have gotten as far as he has if he had had to follow norwegian children's sport rules :)
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19:14:26 <Fiora> it's terrifying to realize that magnums carlsen was born after me @_@
19:15:28 <oerjan> (btw he just beat kasparov's chess rating record)
19:17:03 <oerjan> admittedly those are well known to inflate over time. but he also has a nice gap to no. 2.
19:18:08 <elliott> apparently magnus carlsen was born before me
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19:21:37 <Fiora> young chess prodigies are amazing
19:21:54 <Fiora> my favorite is judit polgar, I think she's rated as the strongest chess player ever through age ~14
19:22:55 <ais523> the best 14 year old chess player ever was 14 years old at the time
19:24:34 <Fiora> and she's like "dedicating my life to the game? pff, I'll have kids and take care of a family and keep a 27xx rating anyways because I'm that amazing"
19:26:02 <ais523> now I'm wondering about something
19:26:09 <ais523> elo rankings show how well you're doing relative to others in your field
19:26:21 <ais523> and thus, elo rankings should at least in theory be comparable /between different games/
19:26:30 <ais523> so, what's the highest elo at anything ever?
19:26:35 <oerjan> um, she seems to have dropped slightly below 2700 in http://www.2700chess.com/ (you have to go to the women's list to find her)
19:26:54 <Fiora> she moves around I think, wikipedia says she's 2705 now
19:27:07 <Fiora> but I guess she might have gone down in january
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19:28:39 <Bike> why are there different mens' and womens' divisions for chess?
19:29:24 <oerjan> Bike: because there aren't enough women to compete at the top?
19:29:52 <oerjan> the gap from polgar to the next woman is very large
19:31:46 <oerjan> well, about the same as from 1 to 7 for the men. admittedly no. 7 is also the current world champion :P
19:32:11 <ais523> oerjan: is that because the others didn't participate
19:32:18 <ais523> there was some sort of schism in the chess world championship, IIRC
19:32:24 <ais523> and there were three competing champions for a while
19:32:29 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's been sorted out yet
19:32:42 <oerjan> i'm sure that was years ago...
19:32:57 <oerjan> kasparov vs. karpov iirc
19:33:20 <oerjan> none of them are even in the current 2700 list
19:33:31 <oerjan> don't remember the third one
19:36:25 <Fiora> Bike: I think especially before polgar there were almost no women in the top ranks
19:37:50 <Fiora> I remember reading an interesting article about how polgar was such an inspiration to the higher-level players that women GMs tended to play significantly more aggressively than the men because they were often emulating polger's own aggressive style
19:41:38 <oerjan> "The world championship was eventually reunified in 2006, when classical champion Kramnik defeated the winner of the FIDE World Chess Championship 2005, Veselin Topalov."
19:41:50 <kmc> "One pilot, Feldwebel Rolf Heitsch, had his Dornier fitted with an infantry flame thrower in its tail."
19:45:28 <ais523> kmc: I doubt it accomplished much
19:47:43 <kmc> indeed, he got shot down that day
19:48:34 <oerjan> at least he went down in flames
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20:25:42 <oerjan> LAST HOUSEMATE IS LEAVING FOR CHRISTMAS
20:25:49 <HackEgo> 446) <oerjan> i try to be a hermit but it's hard with all these housemates.
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20:39:33 <zzo38> I read the rule of the Wuss chess variant, but one thing I don't know, is if in Wuss V it is allowed to move a Wuss into an attacked square.
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22:30:01 <elliott> kmc: "Also, i think the halting problem is very uninteresting because such systems don't need to be considered valid code"
22:31:56 <Taneb> Sounds sort of like Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php
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22:40:02 <monqy> elliott: whaaaaaaaaaaaat
22:40:55 <shachaf> monqy: what's the last kind of lens you learned
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22:41:33 <monqy> probably those twanvl-styled mirrored lens familiies... i havent payed much attn to lenses
22:42:10 <shachaf> the new lenses are so elegant, edwardk exploded
22:42:20 <monqy> which are these, the profunctor lenses
22:42:33 <shachaf> and bifunctor lenses are also "p. cool"
22:42:37 <monqy> maybe i'll learn them sometime
22:42:38 <monqy> maybe i'll learn them sometime
22:43:29 <shachaf> monqy: class Hi p where hi :: p a b -> p (Either b a) b
22:43:56 <shachaf> what should that class be called
22:44:13 <shachaf> "you know like category theory and stuff right"
22:44:23 <monqy> not really........
22:44:37 <monqy> i should know like category theory and stuff but
22:44:40 <monqy> i dont know all that much
22:44:57 <shachaf> well you just need to know the answer to my question
22:45:06 <shachaf> "thats like one thing how can you not know that :'("
22:45:27 <elliott> it should be called prismatic imo
22:46:30 <monqy> are there any contstraints on what p is, or "hi laws"
22:46:35 <shachaf> how about braided lax costrong strong monoidal functor
22:46:39 <monqy> or is that the "entire Hi"
22:46:47 <shachaf> monqy: um we don't quite know
22:47:05 <shachaf> which means that (p a b) is contravariant in a and covarint in b
22:47:24 <shachaf> elliott: it could be a double-contravariant functor!!!!!! i think
22:47:45 <Taneb> :t (Control.Category.id |||)
22:47:47 <lambdabot> ArrowChoice a => a c d -> a (Either d c) d
22:48:52 <monqy> shachaf: what does Hi mean
22:49:02 <monqy> shachaf: or do you just want a "fany maths name"
22:49:06 <Taneb> monqy, it's the opposite of Lo
22:49:20 <monqy> shachaf: because im sorry i dont know the fancy maths name!!!
22:49:25 <shachaf> monqy: a "fany maths name" would be good
22:49:32 <shachaf> a "fansy math name" would be better
22:50:00 <shachaf> monqy: but some laws would be good too
22:50:20 <kmc> his brains are in terrible danger
22:50:33 <monqy> I can't make laws out of noting!!!I need to know what laws have to hold for it to do what you want it to do....and then those are the laws you want
22:51:21 <oerjan> just outsource it to agora
22:52:03 <shachaf> monqy: ok (1). uh.... lmap Right . prismatic = id??
22:52:08 <shachaf> elliott: is that a good law
22:53:02 <monqy> shachaf: i don't know what these lens things are because i don't know lens.....why are you asking me this stuff
22:53:24 <shachaf> monqy: lmap Right . hi = id??
22:54:08 <monqy> shachaf: i don't know what these lens things are because i don't know lens.....why are you asking me this stuff
22:55:29 <hagb4rd> that happens when they change something in the matrix
22:57:39 <oerjan> the matrix is so last century
22:58:38 <quintopia> enjoy living in your tensor of solidarity
23:00:51 <oerjan> hm "last century" is so last bak'tun
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23:04:24 <oerjan> hm "last" is so mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
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23:36:26 <oerjan> the precise way in which ZeptoBasic is esoteric seems to elude me.
23:36:51 <Fiora> I guess you could say that the way is... esoteric?
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00:04:47 <zzo38> oerjan: Who is evil hth?
00:04:55 <zzo38> hagb4rd: What shade of pink is the new red?
00:27:26 <quintopia> it amuses me that ais uses the word "whilst"
00:28:48 <Taneb> I have no qualms over using "whilst", but I know not when to use it rather than the somewhat more common "while"
00:29:05 <kmc> use it when you want to sound smart
00:30:33 <oerjan> i just use it once in a whilst
00:32:04 * FireFly wonders when oerjan's stock of hth's will run out
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00:41:39 <Jafet> You can steal them hth
01:36:08 <quintopia> i know it means hope this helps, but i can't help reading it "how the hell"
01:37:00 <elliott> does anyone know how to find out what's outputting audio w/ alsa
01:37:28 <kmc> install pulseaudio
01:37:43 <kmc> now your problem is solved because nothing can output audio
01:38:25 <kmc> maybe something like: lsof | grep /dev/snd
01:38:52 <quintopia> elliott: someone explained this to me a week or two ago
02:17:00 <zzo38> I fixed the clicking in the music
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03:13:50 <kmc> hulu put an ad for pie right after a scene prominently featuring pie
03:13:58 <kmc> well played
03:23:30 <Jafet> Well, there are some prominent pie scenes where this wouldn't work.
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03:53:56 <zzo38> There is Haskell program "pandoc" to convert formats, so I make "panchess" which is the similar thing but for chess.
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04:01:21 <zzo38> Who is azaq23 anyways?
04:04:54 <kmc> goatse.cx is becoming a webmail provider
04:05:27 <zzo38> Why don't you just use SMTP?
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05:13:11 <shachaf> `addquote <zzo38> There is Haskell program "pandoc" to convert formats, so I make "panchess" which is the similar thing but for chess.
05:13:14 <HackEgo> 884) <zzo38> There is Haskell program "pandoc" to convert formats, so I make "panchess" which is the similar thing but for chess.
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05:57:18 <zzo38> Do you know how Rutherford chess notation works?
05:58:39 <zzo38> I know some things, but I don't know what the list of Latin words is, and in what way the moves are counted.
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06:19:50 <Sgeo> Rutherford the dog?
06:20:52 <Sgeo> http://books.google.com/books?id=7fTV6dm2mM0C&lpg=PA94&ots=DiwQlnOMX0&dq=rutherford%20dog%20calculus%20the%20easy%20way&pg=PA91#v=onepage&q=rutherford%20dog%20calculus%20the%20easy%20way&f=false
06:21:08 <zzo38> I mean Sir William Watson Rutherford
06:27:07 <fizzie> Sir William Watson Rutherford the Dog? (It still does sound like a dog name.)
06:29:18 <Sgeo> I love that book so much
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06:31:21 <zzo38> I mean the the baronet, not the dog.
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07:31:57 <Gracenotes> Sgeo: I learned calculus from that book
07:32:54 <Gracenotes> back in.. 10th grade, I think it was. I liked how it had proofs, or proof sketches at least.
07:34:40 <HackEgo> Gracenotes: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:41:44 <zzo38> I have recently advanced a level in the Dungeons&Dragons game but have not yet updated my character sheet (neither on paper nor on computer).
07:42:00 <Bike> who are you playing with?
07:42:05 <zzo38> I try to decide what to write
07:42:35 <zzo38> Bike: The only other player (other than the referee) is my brother.
07:42:46 <zzo38> Sorry, I am wrong.
07:43:03 <zzo38> However, my mother is now in.
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10:53:43 <oerjan> <quintopia> i know it means hope this helps, but i can't help reading it "how the hell" <-- THAT MAY FIT TOO HTH
10:57:47 <oerjan> <zzo38> However, my mother is now in. <-- * realizes zzo38 must have a pretty cool family
11:00:46 <zzo38> "If the promoted piece is not available, FIDE rules are that the player should stop the game clock and summon the arbiter for the correct piece." Has anyone attempted to take advantage of this rule?
11:02:00 <oerjan> well wouldn't anyone who promotes a second queen, say, have to use it? or do they have more than one set available?
11:02:14 <coppro> the amount of advantage to be gained is slim
11:02:35 <oerjan> oh you mean just to get more time
11:02:57 <oerjan> after all, _both_ players can use that time.
11:03:07 <zzo38> Yes, to get more time, is what I mean.
11:03:25 <coppro> the time gained would be in the level of minutes at best
11:03:41 <coppro> and given the way time controls work, this is unlikely to be highly relevant
11:06:21 <zzo38> oerjan: I think they do often have one extra queen of each color off of the board; there is a picture where they are behind the clock.
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11:15:49 <zzo38> I once read, someone was playing football or something else (I do not remember); the winning team was winning by one point and they needed two points to win the tournament. Tehre wasn't much time left, so they scored their own goal, making the score even so that they could win two points in the tiebreaker. The opposing team did not realize what happened in time to do anything.
11:22:02 <oerjan> yeah there was also that noise during the olympics, was it badminton? where several teams attempted to _lose_ to get easier opponents in the next games...
11:22:22 <oerjan> and it got so bad they were all disqualified
11:23:22 <oerjan> actually those were single players, but many of them
11:25:16 <zzo38> Yes I heard about that.
11:25:56 <zzo38> To me, I consider that a fault with the tournament format, I guess.
11:26:03 <elliott> I think it was some football game in Micronesia or something.
11:26:32 <zzo38> With the game I described though, I consider their tactics legitimate.
11:32:24 <oerjan> "Game designer David Sirlin called the rule system that "gives players an incentive to lose" at an Olympic Games "horrificly [sic] bad", and claimed that the disqualifications were wrongly directing the blame away from the alleged deficiencies of those rules."
11:33:19 <coppro> it happened in a 1998 qualifier in football
11:33:42 <coppro> where two teams were assured to move on, but both wanted the worse seed
11:34:06 <coppro> apparently one guy has managed to score for both teams in a single match in a world cup match
11:39:15 <zzo38> oerjan: I agree with Sirlin on that; I consider it a fault with the tournament format.
11:40:27 <coppro> apparently in basketball, the team captain scores all own goals by the opposing team
11:40:31 <coppro> (in international rules)
11:41:56 <zzo38> The example I gave is different: The team was not trying to lose, they were trying to tie.
11:42:15 <zzo38> coppro: Does it make a difference in basketball who scores what?
11:44:03 <oerjan> presumably they have best player lists across whole tournaments
11:45:28 <zzo38> The alternative to the captain, I guess, would be whoever scores the own goal has one point deducted.
11:47:57 <zzo38> In the basketball game I play on X-BIT, it does keep track of best player lists in several categories, but I don't know if it is even programmed to deal with own goals at all. My team seems to be best in stealing, and I can win with that.
11:51:52 <coppro> zzo38: it matters to statistics
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12:43:55 <oerjan> @remember vagif Sometimes i wish haskell would force me to do other good things in my life. Like for example start doing yoga or aikido again :)
12:44:06 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
12:44:29 <lambdabot> Quote somebody, a random person, or save a memorable quote
12:44:52 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
12:44:56 <lambdabot> oerjan says: i only do impractical things
12:44:57 <lambdabot> Hrmph, looks like I killed the channel
12:48:24 <lambdabot> ghc says: magic number mismatch: old/corrupt interface file?
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13:58:02 <ais523> currently trying to update another computer that has about 2.8GB disk space total on the only partition that works
13:58:15 <ais523> (I'm thinking about blowing away the entire disk and repartitioning from scratch)
13:58:37 <oerjan> i'm glad both you and fizzie are having fun today
13:58:43 <ais523> (it was a Windows machine originally, and probably heavily malware-infested; we installed Linux but couldn't resize any of the partitions but the recovery partition to make room for it)
13:59:09 <lambdabot> ghc says: Exotic pattern inside meta brackets
13:59:13 <fizzie> Now I've had fun twice today.
13:59:40 <ais523> so the problem was, it ran out of disk space halfway through updating the kernel
14:00:01 <ais523> you can have fun guessing at the problems this caused, and the solutions
14:00:11 <ais523> oh, and it's a deb/apt-based system (Ubuntu), this is relevant
14:01:13 <fizzie> I think I remember a review of a Lenovo laptop that had a "128 GB" SSD, of which approximately 50-60 GB was free out of the box, what with about half being partitioned off for a recovery thing, and the OS + cruft taking something too.
14:02:07 <elliott> ais523: if only you used a package manager with atomic updates
14:09:33 <ais523> btw, that computer is using the wrong screen resolution, and believes the graphics card to be "VESA", which is very generic
14:09:47 <ais523> anyone know how to determine what sort of graphics card it actually has, so I can search for how to find the relevant drivers?
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14:16:05 <ais523> I knew it was something like that, I just couldn't remember exactly
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14:30:56 <nooodl> elliott: do you know what i could add to/remove from zeptobasic to make it more esoteric
14:30:56 <lambdabot> nooodl: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:32:02 <ais523> nooodl: removing everything but the absolute minimum is a standard way to make languages esoteric, or possibly lambda calculus
14:32:13 <ais523> (although lambda calculus is pretty eso in its own right)
14:32:25 <nooodl> monqy said it had been discussed here before so i guess i'll read the logs
14:33:44 <nooodl> also i've implemented a brainfuck translator without using things like mul, div, pow... so i could get rid of those, but that's kind of a boring thing to do
14:34:28 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3806
14:34:35 <nooodl> <oerjan> the precise way in which ZeptoBasic is esoteric seems to elude me.
14:34:50 <nooodl> right now the esoteric things are a) the implementation, b) the way arrays work
14:34:58 * oerjan swats elliott -----###
14:35:18 <elliott> hm thats interesting because <nooodl> for now lie to elliott and tell him the esoteric part is how it's implemented
14:35:33 <nooodl> i was lying to monqy...
14:35:51 <nooodl> no actually that's a truth because
14:35:53 <elliott> is there any truth in your web of deceit.....................................................................
14:35:59 <oerjan> nooodl: hey i know change it so it lies about _everything_!
14:36:05 <nooodl> saying that is just, not true, i mean, it's not part of the language
14:36:11 <nooodl> you could implement the spec in a really boring normal way
14:36:12 <oerjan> that would be esoteric for sure
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14:37:51 <nooodl> sprunge is down so i couldn't read your lambdabot message
14:38:52 <nooodl> anyway i discussed zeptobasic with monqy yesterday and there's some other interesting things about it *because* of the way it's implemented
14:39:54 <nooodl> any two-argument function in python's "operator" module is a valid opcode, because it just imports those to implement add/sub/mul/div/pow/mod
14:40:01 <nooodl> (and lt/le/eq/ne/ge/gt
14:40:36 <nooodl> so there's actually some undocumented string operations? which is cool
14:45:33 <elliott> IMO as derivative languages with zepto in the name go my zepto is cooler
14:45:54 <nooodl> monqy told me about that
14:46:17 <oerjan> surely zalgo is better than zepto
14:46:23 <nooodl> <monqy> you should consult with elliott before throwing ZEPTO around
14:46:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18808
14:46:27 <elliott> oerjan: fuck you. you don't understand zepto life
14:46:42 <nooodl> <monqy> i forget everything about zepto
14:46:42 <nooodl> <monqy> except that it's a way of life
14:46:45 <Sgeo> Isn't zepto that language that elliott wanted to make when I became obsessed with picolisp?
14:46:51 <nooodl> elliott: what is zepto life
14:47:29 <elliott> Sgeo: its the way of life i adopted
14:49:31 <elliott> uh maybe the zepto code is on my backup here
14:50:23 <elliott> monqy: whats 2011-04 in letters
14:51:01 <nooodl> i was thinking april 2011 but that couldn't've,,
14:51:17 <monqy> i had to count on my fingers
14:51:26 <elliott> so i decided to outsource the work
14:51:39 <Jafet> The month unnameable in six words
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16:51:19 <Taneb> "Rather than circumvent the laws of physics Greg Kumparak has relied on augmented reality (AR)." -- BBC news website
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17:55:29 <fizzie> This candle looks weird: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121224-candle.jpg
17:55:37 <fizzie> It's getting this kind of a rim thing.
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18:43:04 <kmc> "The shells were propelled at such a high velocity that each successive shot wore away a considerable amount of steel from the rifled bore. Each shell was sequentially numbered according to its increasing diameter, and had to be fired in numeric order, lest the projectile lodge in the bore, and the gun explode."
18:45:05 <Bike> where are you getting these from?
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18:52:23 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Gun
18:53:32 <Bike> what is it with germans and ridiculous artillery
18:53:51 <Fiora> they also had those ridiculous tanks, right?
18:53:55 <Fiora> the plans for the 1000 ton and 1500 ton tank
18:54:00 <Bike> i don't think they ever actually built the maus
18:54:35 <Bike> partly because of the whole "can knock over buildings by sweeping its turret, but would break apart over a trench" aspect probably
18:55:21 <Bike> " its accuracy was only good enough for city-sized targets" what a phrase.
18:57:59 <fizzie> They didn't build the Ratte either.
19:01:32 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon so... they used rocket boosters in a gun?
19:03:00 <fizzie> My book said that's unlikely.
19:03:13 <fizzie> Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article seems to disagree.
19:03:37 <fizzie> It's a work of humour.
19:03:45 <fizzie> So perhaps it's not the best reference source either.
19:04:30 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lyman-Haskell_multi-chamber_gun_1883.jpg
19:05:14 <fizzie> But to a complete amateur in guns it does sound kind of unlikely that a regular rocket booster in a fixed position, giving thrust for K seconds, would be all that useful for boosting a projectile that's supposed to travel at 335 metres per second.
19:06:01 <Bike> well, the germans did a lot of things that seem kind of ridiculous in retrospect.
19:06:46 <fizzie> That Lyman-Haskell gun doesn't sound like it'd be using rocket boosters either.
19:07:01 <Bike> it wouldn't, i meant the v3.
19:07:19 <fizzie> Yes, but why would it work any better there?
19:07:35 <Bike> I just said they used them, not that they worked :P
19:07:49 <Bike> "The guns were not particularly effective; from the 142 rounds that landed in Luxembourg, total casualties were 10 dead and 35 wounded."
19:08:37 <fizzie> If it fired something to Luxembourg, I'd still classify it as "working", at least from some points of view.
19:08:48 <ais523> elliott: http://esolangs.org/wiki/International_transportation
19:08:51 <fizzie> Perhaps not from the "is a good idea at all" one.
19:08:57 <ais523> I'm not sure I can even consider that spam
19:09:04 <ais523> look where the link goes :)
19:10:10 <fizzie> Bike: Anyway, the book was My Tank Is Fight, and I liked reading it, but I don't think it was really billed as a necessarily authoritative source.
19:10:18 <Bike> oh, i've heard that's a fun book.
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19:26:50 <kmc> one V-2 rocket cost as much as four heavy tanks
19:27:13 <kmc> but they had no gasoline to run the tanks
19:27:20 <kmc> so... maybe they should have developed tanks that run on rocket fuel
19:27:34 <kmc> there were such programs for submarines i believe
19:28:22 <Fiora> My Tank is Fight, that was the SA book about insane german military vehicle designs right?
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20:42:55 <nooodl_> are there any esolangs where the source code is just a directory full of empty files and subdirectories containing more empty files?
20:43:55 <monqy> sounds like a "syntax thing"
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20:58:58 <kmc> cute idea but yeah
20:59:00 <kmc> syntax is boring
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21:19:32 <FreeFull> Is there any esolang where the source code is pictures of naked women?
21:29:26 <zzo38> LenPEG is, isn't it?
21:34:50 <fizzie> Arguably that's an image compression algorithm, not an esolang.
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22:18:36 <zzo38> dnd/option/Mind_Detector.p
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22:25:52 <oerjan> Merry Christmas, I Guess
22:26:36 <Taneb> oerjan, what are you doing in GMT+2?
22:27:07 <oerjan> i'm not, but christmas officially starts 17 pm 24 dec here
22:28:47 <oerjan> bit of redundant redundancy
22:29:08 <oerjan> that's when the church bells customarily sound
22:30:09 <oerjan> and it lasts until either Jan 6 or Jan 13, dependent on who you ask. hth.
22:30:32 <oerjan> (christmas, not the church bells. otherwise i'd probably emigrate.)
22:32:42 <fizzie> We have "the declaration of Christmas peace" (a public event in Turku, relevised and radioed) at noon on the 24th.
22:32:45 <oerjan> <fizzie> This candle looks weird: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121224-candle.jpg <-- this candle looks not loading
22:33:33 <fizzie> Some people count that as the start moment of Christmas. (Some don't.)
22:33:45 <fizzie> (I had another thought right there but I forgot it.)
22:34:34 <fizzie> Good thing the candle doesn't load, since it looks much more impressive now, after four more hours alit. I'll take a daylight picture tomorrow.
22:35:28 <fizzie> Oh, right: the shops close at the moment the peace is declared.
22:36:30 <fizzie> (We got some bell peppers and onions bought at like 11:30am this year, after getting back so late from the Stockholm ferry.)
22:37:58 <oerjan> <ais523> I'm not sure I can even consider that spam <-- you can consider it off topic hth
22:38:14 <oerjan> or you could, if you were here
22:38:22 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> I'm not sure I can even consider that spam <-- you can consider it off topic hth
22:38:59 <zzo38> If it was up to me it would start on the winter solstice.
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22:58:45 <zzo38> dnd/option/Kjugobe_Psionic_Hack.p
22:58:50 <zzo38> Do you like these psionic powers?
23:06:24 <Taneb> What does "hth" even mean
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23:16:42 <oerjan> but i guess "happy to help" usually fits just as well
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23:33:57 <Sgeo> elliott, what is your opinion of elliottcable?
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04:05:02 <kmc> 'The just-formed Red Army used at least one armoured tram during the fighting for Moscow in the October Revolution in 1917'
04:05:10 <kmc> http://strangernn.livejournal.com/95459.html http://strangernn.livejournal.com/89525.html
04:38:03 <kmc> not as good as the pub tram
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05:16:50 <kmc> merry christmas #esoteric
05:26:01 <kmc> happy solstice and perihelion
05:26:12 <Fiora> merry post apocalypse celebrations
05:41:16 <kmc> funny how newton's birthday is billed as a non-religious alternative to christmas
05:41:27 <kmc> given that newton was crazy religious and into alchemy and all that
05:41:55 <Bike> could you get many war on christmas people to believe with his nuttiness, though?
05:50:39 <Bike> there should be a fringe sect called the Newtonians.
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05:59:35 <zzo38> Did Newton do alchemy because chemistry wasn't invented yet?
06:01:10 <quintopia> he did alchemy because he was a bit of a nutcase in his old age
06:01:23 <quintopia> the fact that chemistry didnt exist yet was just incidental
06:04:18 <kmc> he believed a lot of occult shit that does not hold up to the standard of empirical rationality that is often pinned on him by modern day rationalists
06:04:43 <Bike> i'm sure he only found out where solomon's temple was through bayesian inference.
06:05:53 <kmc> 'Newton was also a member of the Parliament of England from 1689 to 1690 and in 1701, but according to some accounts his only comments were to complain about a cold draught in the chamber and request that the window be closed.'
06:06:32 <Bike> isn't there a book about his time at the Mint
06:06:48 <kmc> probably many
06:07:00 <kmc> it's a major plot point in the Baroque Cycle
06:07:31 <zzo38> Yes I know he was religious and that stuff
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06:13:32 <zzo38> But some other scientists were also religious. Some weren't. You can be good scientist either way, but you have to not confuse the science by religious stuff. However, Newton may have made this mistake once.
06:14:51 <kmc> just once?
06:15:04 <zzo38> Well, I don't actually know how many times, so I guessed.
06:15:40 <Bike> with significant figures that could be anywhere from 1/2 to 3/2 times, kmc, be generous
06:19:18 <kmc> of course newton was a great scientist
06:20:05 <zzo38> But everyone makes misktakes.
06:20:11 <Bike> it's weird reading in retrospect about him doing experiments to show things like additivity of momentum that just seem obvious now
06:22:09 <Jafet> People in the next century will consider the standard model obvious
06:22:12 <kmc> why is it obvious
06:22:16 <Jafet> Actually they probably won't, but we can hope
06:22:39 <kmc> people in the next century will be too busy drowning and having awesome virtual reality sex to care about the standard model
06:22:47 <zzo38> Even if it is obvious, you should try by experiment sometimes. It is how to make science!
06:22:54 <Bike> the /standard model/?
06:22:56 <Jafet> Damn, next century sounds really fun.
06:23:19 <Bike> i thought the standard model was universally considered weird as hell
06:23:33 <Fiora> science will be taken over by the evil empire of asexuals
06:23:44 <Fiora> while everyone else has VR sex, we will take over the galaxy
06:23:51 <zzo38> There will be an evil empire which consists of asexuals?
06:24:07 <Jafet> The frustrated empire
06:24:10 <Bike> the only thing that can stop you is VR cuddle simulations
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06:26:10 <kmc> if you want a vision of the future, imagine a boob slapping a human face forever
06:28:19 * ion imagines a manboob slapping kmc’s face forever.
06:28:49 <Fiora> all the men end up inside sex sims, society becomes matriarchal?
06:30:21 <kmc> women like sex too
06:30:24 <kmc> study shows
06:31:26 <kmc> film at 11?
06:31:36 <Fiora> yes but do most women want boobs slapping their faces
06:31:57 <Jafet> This calls for science
06:32:11 <kmc> even for straight guys i think it would get old after about 5 or 10 minutes
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06:32:16 <zzo38> I don't want. Well, if you want, that is OK, I guess, but I don't want.
06:32:56 <Bike> an admirable attitude.
06:33:01 <Fiora> yeah, I can't exactly speak for sexual people but I'd be shocked if most people didn't get bored of that kind of thing
06:33:04 <kmc> zzo38 is perhaps the greatest deadpan comedian of our age
06:33:22 <Fiora> like everyone would have lots of VR sex for a few days and then they'd be like "okay, I'm bored, can we play something else"
06:33:37 <Bike> sim city. just you watch.
06:33:56 <kmc> gameify sex
06:34:04 <Bike> god that sounds depressing.
06:34:10 <kmc> make it joyless and compulsive
06:34:34 <Bike> the world ends not with fire or with ice, but with Cow Clicker
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06:35:02 <kmc> that's numberwang!
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06:36:32 <Bike> do i get a prize?
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06:37:16 <Fiora> kmc: wow, I'm having horrible thoughts now with that combination like buying unlocks for sex and I don't even know
06:37:25 <Fiora> F2P sex just why how agh why does this thought exist
06:37:32 <kmc> As you all know first prize is a Cadillac El Dorado. Anyone wanna see second prize? Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is you're fired.
06:37:52 <zzo38> Is there a fourth prize?
07:01:22 <zzo38> I made up some psionic powers for Dungeons&Dragons game, which includes "Kjugobe's Psionic Hack"; if you roll the number high enough, it will affect a spell/power by one of the available options, which includes: changing a compass direction, changing a school, changing a descriptor, changing a creature type, toggle dismissibility, etc.
07:01:55 <zzo38> This may be used for many possibilities.
07:08:39 <zzo38> Try to use this to add the force, death, language-dependent, or mind-affecting descriptors to a fireball spell.
07:11:45 <kmc> what will happen?
07:17:02 <zzo38> It is unknown, but what I might expect: Force makes it damage the ethereal plane too. Death means if it does enough damage to kill the target(s), they cannot be resurrected except by very powerful resurrection. Language-dependent would damage only the targets who speak the same language as the caster.
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07:45:04 <kmc> hey, Z3 is open source now: http://z3.codeplex.com/
07:45:21 <kmc> this is microsoft's allegedly very good SMT solver
07:53:36 <ion> kmc: http://z3.codeplex.com/SourceControl/changeset/view/89c1785b7322#LICENSE.txt
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08:00:51 <Bike> how can it be lispy, i see a ++ right there!
08:03:49 <kmc> yeah i didn't look to see if the license is OSI compatible or whatever
08:04:02 <kmc> just, the source is now easily available and it was not before
08:04:18 <Bike> also: i thought you meant amazon's thing and was confused
08:14:31 <Jafet> Isn't it a theorem somewhere that open source solvers are crap
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08:47:28 <zzo38> The license says research only
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13:06:26 <oerjan> <kmc> if you want a vision of the future, imagine a boob slapping a human face forever
13:07:11 * oerjan imagines a book instead, just to twist the reference further
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14:34:29 <GreyKnight> `run lua -e 'Happy,Ch,ri,st,ma,s=table.remove,"may rippChs!Hast",25,{3,4,1,2,2,3,4,2,1,2,7,3,4,7,24,25},{},""function Q(k)k=(k+st[1])/st[2]Happy(st,1)Happy(st,1)return k end for w in Ch:gmatch("..")do ma[#ma+1]=w end for i=1,#Ch,2 do ri=Q(ri)s=s..ma[ri]Happy(ma, ri)end print(s)'
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14:42:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `()' with actual type `[a0]'
14:50:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 [a0]))
14:50:46 <oerjan> there's apparently a bug in ghc 7.4.2 which makes that give [] :: [()]
14:51:23 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/beginners/2012-December/011145.html
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14:58:57 <oerjan> oh, someone explained it, there's an IO monad involved. or is there...
14:59:25 <GreyKnight> IO seems to be involved in quite a lot of places that don't seem to involve actual I/O :-P
14:59:29 <oerjan> ok mystery solved, not actually a bug (but confusing)
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14:59:40 <oerjan> GreyKnight: i didn't think IO would be used for defaulting
15:00:08 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `unsafeHappyChristmas'
15:00:12 <oerjan> > sequence [] :: IO [()]
15:00:14 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (GHC.Types.IO [()]))
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15:00:43 <GreyKnight> it's 15:04 on Christmas Day and I haven't opened presents yet :-/
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15:39:52 <fizzie> Hey, my VLC icon has a santa hat on it.
15:40:21 <fizzie> It seems to be something that was already there in 2008.
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15:44:41 <fungot> GreyKnight: haskell forced me to download dr scheme? fnord! the riemann hypothesis.") for an example of match-letrec:
15:45:10 <fizzie> fungot: Did your time offline break your mind a bit?
15:45:11 <fungot> fizzie: and by time i mean effort in feather
15:46:27 <GreyKnight> Oh, fungot was trying to understand Feather... mystery solved
15:46:28 <fungot> GreyKnight: oh oh okay
15:48:43 <fizzie> fungot: Don't try to understand Feather, you might get all scrambled up.
15:48:44 <fungot> fizzie: alternatively, isbn?). i asked it too." that's what i
15:48:52 <fizzie> Oh no, I think it's still trying.
15:50:03 <GreyKnight> why does he need an ISBN? I think fungot is planning to publish a book on Feather!
15:50:04 <fungot> GreyKnight: in fnord fnord fnord.
15:50:24 <GreyKnight> fnording bells, fnording bells, fnording all the way
15:52:24 <fizzie> fungot: Seriously, dude, lay off the Feather. You know what your brain on Feather looks like.
15:52:25 <fungot> fizzie: but yeah, that's the best idea so far. but people don't need training to use social pressure to enforce conformance it's completely natural
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15:57:44 <GreyKnight> fungot: this is your brain on Feather: ᚛ U+169B OGHAM FEATHER MARK
15:57:45 <fungot> GreyKnight: a cake with a file port, you pass the turing test like that? :) ( i'm attracted to these types of problems)) and i said
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16:06:56 <oerjan> there are too many thinking about feather now, we might be approaching singularity
16:08:11 <GreyKnight> Thinking of Feather you forget everything else....
16:09:40 <quintopia> fizzie: the santa hat has been on the icon all month. you clearly don't vlc much
16:12:28 <fizzie> I don't see the icon much, since it's only in the empty window where I see it.
16:12:59 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it's also in the notification area.
16:13:32 <fizzie> But I don't VLC much, that's also true. I mostly just mplayer instead. (Except it barfs on these subtitle files.)
16:14:39 <quintopia> i dont watch movies as much as i stream music
16:17:31 <GreyKnight> Pah, *I* stream my movies over telnet (telnet to telehack.com and type "starwars")
16:19:33 <DH____> (The number of us here on Christmas day is actually kind of tragic...)
16:21:19 <fizzie> I stream my movies over SSH and mplayer -vo caca.
16:22:22 <fizzie> Though I've done ssh + "mplayer -vo caca tv://" to access local TV channels back when I had a TV tuner card. Once or twice. For five minutes or so.
16:22:28 <quintopia> i go to a theater or to a friend's house that has the dvd
16:35:22 <fizzie> oerjan: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121225-candle2.jpg I'm sure you're just FASCINATED by the candle.
16:36:37 <oerjan> OOH HOW DOES IT BURN THROUGH THE GLASS LIKE THAT
16:38:02 <fizzie> The upper rim is where the candle originally ended. Maybe. I think it may have sunk a little.
16:39:01 <fizzie> But it's somewhere around 15-20 cm long in total, I don't know how long it can keep that up.
16:47:44 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora Taneb there was an update a number of hours ago
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17:11:42 <Jafet> Счастливые распада СССР!
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17:16:05 <kmc> preved medved
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17:27:30 <fizzie> Have you eaten in one of the restaurants of the PECTOPAH chain? Those are like EVERYWHERE there.
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17:29:23 <kmc> did you know that World War I was the end of the fall of the Roman Empire?
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17:50:02 <kmc> well the german empire, ottoman empire, and austro-hungarian empire all claimed to be descended from the roman empire in some capacity
17:50:05 <quintopia> i cant type backtick here someone post it
17:50:14 <kmc> have a backtick: `
17:51:07 <lambdabot> "``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````...
17:52:06 <quintopia> `addquote <fizzie> Have you eaten in one of the restaurants of the PECTOPAH chain? Those are like EVERYWHERE there.
17:52:10 <HackEgo> 885) <fizzie> Have you eaten in one of the restaurants of the PECTOPAH chain? Those are like EVERYWHERE there.
17:54:46 <fizzie> It's someone else's joke, really. :/
17:55:53 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Perhaps http://translate.google.com/#ru/en/%D0%A0%D0%95%D0%A1%D0%A2%D0%9E%D0%A0%D0%90%D0%9D will help.
17:56:11 <fizzie> Unless the uncertainty was about kmc's thing.
17:56:55 <fizzie> (It's the Cyrillic letters for "RESTORAN", pretty much.)
17:57:02 <Jafet> The funny bit is when they find out how "PECTOPAH" is actually pronounced.
17:57:20 <fizzie> Jafet: Yeah, it's actually pronounced "Pepito-Bismol".
17:57:37 <fizzie> Or is that Pepto. I guess it's Pepto.
17:57:44 <fizzie> It's not a brand that I think is sold here.
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18:08:16 <quintopia> Jafet: i don't think i would want to drink at the rerto bar. that's not a very classy name.
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18:10:35 <fizzie> But would you use rerto vars in your program?
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19:26:05 <HackEgo> 540) <itidus20> what is nice about a pebble is that you can process it with your brain as a number by simply looking at it
19:27:15 <Bike> oh right, that rock is a two. and that one's a seventeen. and that one is chaitin's constant for 2,3 machines.
19:27:43 <Fiora> an uncomputable rock?
19:28:54 <Bike> only a countable infinity of rocks are computable, you know `-`
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19:57:42 <kmc> i miss itidus
19:57:48 <HackEgo> 874) <oerjan> i think the problem is you're trying to interpret finnish as logic.
19:57:52 <HackEgo> 869) <fungot> elliott: sorry, i don't know, some more booze and now, if you eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat! contains exactly the items!
19:57:59 <HackEgo> 88) <Miya> I perceived it so hard I actually went away :O
19:58:08 <kmc> fungot: why don't you respond to HackEgo?
19:58:08 <fungot> kmc: what kind of a lot of fnord for g :)
19:59:11 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|cuttlefish)!
19:59:39 <fizzie> fungot: It's Christmas, you're allowed to eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat! Even all the items.
19:59:40 <fungot> fizzie: ok. i read the conversation. it was an implementation issue, unrelated to the hack of attaching some scheme code.
20:00:31 <kmc> who's cuttlefish?
20:00:39 <kmc> fungot: do you like cuttlefish?
20:00:39 <fungot> kmc: this has footnotes for cl/ scheme controversy. i think
20:00:55 <fizzie> I'm sure there was a bot by that name.
20:01:01 <kmc> cuttlefish are so cool
20:01:15 <fizzie> Eventually, fungot's ignore list is going to evolve to be over the maximum IRC line length limit.
20:01:16 <fungot> fizzie: for regular modules, see also http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ plt-scheme/ 2005-january/ fnord
20:01:49 <Sgeo> Grah, stupid typoing a domain name and being led to some survey bs
20:02:21 <fizzie> There was an "^echo ~echo ^echo" botloop with cuttlefish/fungot.
20:02:22 <fungot> fizzie: true but we don't like guile people assume that the input stack might be easier
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20:03:39 <Sgeo> o.O Life of Pi doesn't have anything to do with the number, does it?
20:03:55 -!- Bike has joined.
20:04:18 <fizzie> It's just the guy in it.
20:04:27 <fizzie> "Piscine Molitor 'Pi' Patel".
20:04:55 <fizzie> "He was named Piscine Molitor Patel after a swimming pool in France. He changes his name to "Pi" when he begins secondary school, because he is tired of being taunted with the nickname "Pissing Patel"."
20:04:59 <fizzie> That all sounds very reasonable.
20:05:16 <kmc> "Did You Notice? The iGrill is the first Bluetooth cooking thermometer with Facebook integration."
20:05:23 <Sgeo> Pissing pi is better?
20:06:14 <Bike> does that mean it cooks bluetooth
20:11:33 <kmc> it actually uses 2.4 GHz radio waves to cook your meat for you
20:11:40 <kmc> this revolutionary new technology brought to you by apple
20:13:02 <Bike> isn't that a microwave
20:15:34 <ais523> fizzie: you can't produce a botloop with just echoes, right?
20:15:34 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:15:36 <ais523> unless it echoes twice
20:16:37 <fizzie> ais523: Like fungot's echo does.
20:16:38 <fungot> fizzie: and there is free space at that point where it gets this one right, namely plt.
20:16:41 <fizzie> ^echo Does it echo here?
20:16:42 <fungot> Does it echo here? Does it echo here?
20:16:57 <fizzie> Oh no, my space-after-? syndrome is visible there.
20:18:02 <fungot> +echo %echo +echo %echo
20:18:07 <ais523> aha, I see how that works
20:18:29 <oerjan> ^echo Does it echo here?
20:18:30 <fungot> Does it echo here? Does it echo here?
20:20:28 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ITHc I'm the worst.
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20:43:19 <hagb4rd> braben braben braben.. i'm so fucking disappointed. we won't be able to land on planets in elite 4.. fuck you, i want my money back
20:45:54 <hagb4rd> now infinity is the last hope
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20:55:36 <hagb4rd> zzo38: i know you haven't coded anything for now, but do you have any papers on that astronomy/astrology project of yours?
21:31:55 <zzo38> hagb4rd: No papers, just a subpage of my esolang user page.
21:34:03 <zzo38> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Astro-Q it currently contains a single link, to the esolang list of ideas in one of the list items.
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22:01:10 <hagb4rd> zzo38: well yes. that's a bunch of ideas, and to be honest i understand only half of them. but you mentioned problems finding a language for implementation.. can you give an example which of that goals would be difficult or let's say impossible to implement?
22:01:37 <hagb4rd> only if you find the time of course
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22:03:44 <hagb4rd> basically i would start implementing some geometric rules for the movement of the celestial bodies
22:04:54 <hagb4rd> guess, it would be hard to implement the movement of stars in our galaxy
22:06:16 <hagb4rd> but more due to the leak of information we have than to the insufficiency of programming languages
22:06:53 -!- azaq23 has joined.
22:09:42 <hagb4rd> (considering stuff like dark matter or black holes etc)
22:14:49 <Arc_Koen> "we" have a whole lot of information about block holes
22:15:32 <hagb4rd> that's true, but i don't know how complete they are.. maybe we could work with some kind of approximation
22:15:46 <Arc_Koen> plus, usually the information we don't have maps to what we haven't been able to watch, so you could model what we have seen
22:16:17 <Arc_Koen> (and modeling what we can't see would be more fiction than science, wouldn't it?)
22:16:39 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
22:17:35 <hagb4rd> but iirc correctly newtons rules fail at explaining how galaxies behave (in fact they would be torn apart or even never exist) without the "concept" of dark matter
22:19:20 <hagb4rd> so it's more like "look this star doesn't behave as expected.. there must be some dark matter there"
22:20:07 <hagb4rd> making the movements kind of ..yes ..unpredictable
22:20:20 <hagb4rd> but maybe that's not the point
22:21:12 <oerjan> ...surely there is a lot of missing informatino. they are not even sure of the accurate distance to the star betelgeuse.
22:21:45 <oerjan> i said distance, not direction :P
22:22:04 <hagb4rd> which leads to the idea of making the background of stars static
22:22:23 <GreyKnight> Galaxies seem to revolve as if they were a more-or-less solid disk with stars embedded in it
22:22:23 <GreyKnight> whereas you'd expect there to be more of a velocity gradient across the radius
22:22:24 <hagb4rd> like they are in the zodiac
22:22:27 <GreyKnight> for example, if you look at the solar system the inner planets revolve faster than the outer ones
22:22:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:23:23 <hagb4rd> i don't know how significant the movement of stars is in astrology
22:25:16 <oerjan> stars move too slowly to matter for human lifetimes
22:25:51 <GreyKnight> we can actually measure the same rotation problem in other galaxies than our own (you may argue it is actually easier since there isn't as much dust and crap obscuring line of sight to the constituent stars)
22:26:03 <GreyKnight> ("dust and crap": actual scientific terminology)
22:26:14 <hagb4rd> aw we can measure them.. thats true
22:26:23 <oerjan> before modern times, they didn't even know stars moved.
22:26:30 <hagb4rd> but it's difficult to make a prognose?
22:28:01 <GreyKnight> I don't understand what you *mean* by that word here however :-P
22:29:54 <hagb4rd> GreyKnight: i wanted to point out that they would be difficult to predict just doing calculations.. which is the only way we can compute.. isn't it?
22:30:20 <hagb4rd> okay, sure we have sensors
22:30:48 <GreyKnight> what is it you want to predict? We can predict the galaxy's rotational velocity if that's what you mean
22:31:17 -!- WeThePeople has joined.
22:31:35 <hagb4rd> greyknight: the rotation of galaxies is too fast for galaxies to exist
22:32:26 <GreyKnight> the most confusing part about the rotational velocity is that it's constant across the disk: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_rotation_problem for a neat little video demonstrating this
22:33:12 <GreyKnight> the left-side galaxy image shows what you'd expect based on the visible stars and our current understanding of gravity, the right-side shows what is actually observed
22:33:49 -!- Taneb has joined.
22:34:42 <GreyKnight> at the outer edges it is indeed "too fast" but it's the overall curve rather than a specific level
22:34:51 <hagb4rd> but zzo38 mentioned other problems too.. problems of a more i.t. nature
22:35:33 <ais523> oonbotti's been here for a while
22:35:36 <ais523> I just don't remember what it does
22:36:17 <oerjan> oonbotti: what is it you do again
22:36:23 <nortti> ais523: it can either interpret forth, execute/compile c programs or talk
22:36:28 <GreyKnight> oh, I haven't actually read zzo38's link from scrollback
22:36:32 <oonbotti> You can get help about specific command with #help <command>. Commands: #echo, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza, #/etc/passwd
22:36:36 <oerjan> oonbotti: because there were people wondering.
22:36:36 <oonbotti> oerjan: Is that the real reason?
22:36:39 <kmc> dark matter is composed of stars surrounded by dyson spheres constructed by long-dead civilizations
22:37:50 <nortti> the forth implementation is bit sucky
22:37:53 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd: okay zzo38's link is very confusing. I didn't know astrology was so ~complicated~
22:38:01 <oerjan> oh, it's not a full forth?
22:38:15 <oerjan> not that i remember much more of it :P
22:38:24 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
22:39:03 <nortti> too lazy/busy with other projects to implement those
22:39:03 <oerjan> saves me having to remember how that worked
22:39:28 <nortti> condition if if_true else if_false then
22:40:22 <fizzie> \ : foo r> dup >r . ; foo
22:41:24 <fizzie> \ : foo r> dup >r . ; 1 drop foo
22:41:51 <nortti> somewhere 8 magickaly apperead
22:42:05 <fizzie> From the return stack, presumably.
22:42:40 <fizzie> I was just wondering whether it was counting words, hence the "1 drop" attempt to pad things up.
22:42:48 <nortti> ah. it is r> dup >r, not >r dup r>
22:43:15 <fizzie> Yeah, in fact it was just a r@.
22:43:47 <nortti> I can't actually remember how that worked
22:43:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ord: not found
22:44:22 <fizzie> ^ord wasthisthegoodone
22:44:23 <fungot> 119 97 115 116 104 105 115 116 104 101 103 111 111 100 111 110 101
22:44:35 <fizzie> I think there was one that only did one character.
22:44:39 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell
22:45:28 <fizzie> Also the . is maybe a newline or something.
22:45:36 <fungot> >>,[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+10.
22:46:03 <fungot> >>,[[-<+2>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<2[>+6[<+8>-]<-.[-]<]+32.[-]>>,]
22:46:24 <fizzie> That's pretty much the same except in a loop and with a space.
22:48:02 <fizzie> It does seem somewhat offset-counting-words-y.
22:48:22 <fizzie> Persistent stack, too.
22:48:35 <nortti> \ : bar @r . foo ; bar
22:49:17 <oerjan> \ : cont r@ >r ; : test cont 1 + . ; 1 test
22:49:18 <GreyKnight> fizzie: what does http://sprunge.us/ITHc show?
22:50:05 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Count the number of times each person has said a line ending in "? " (space following a ?) on #esoteric in my logs.
22:50:05 <zzo38> You don'tnecessarily need to compute all movements if you have precalculated ephemeris data
22:50:24 <fizzie> GreyKnight: (And then provide a top-ten.)
22:50:58 <nortti> \ : bar r@ . foo ; bar
22:50:59 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think about dark matter
22:51:00 <GreyKnight> I misread it as counting lines starting with "%?" and thought it was some bot... >_>
22:51:51 <hagb4rd> zzo38: okay.. but what about the incompleteness of programming languages you mentioned to be a problem
22:51:59 <fizzie> The 'LIKE' wildcards are pretty stupid. (% is * and _ is ? in globby terms.)
22:52:51 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know much about dark matter; maybe some are stars which don't emit light, maybe some are made of something else
22:53:34 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET BAR + DROP 2DUP TEST SWAP DUP CONT NIP FOO ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
22:53:45 <zzo38> kagb4rd: I did not mention that to be a problem; the problem is incompleteness of existing programs and libraries
22:53:54 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET BAR + DROP 2DUP TEST SWAP DUP CONT NIP FOO ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R> : ; WORDS FORGET BAR + DROP 2DUP TEST SWAP DUP CONT NIP FOO ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R> : ; WORDS FORGET BAR + DROP 2DUP TEST SWAP DUP CONT NIP FOO ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
22:54:42 <oerjan> ^ul ((bullet cluster )S:^):^
22:54:42 <fungot> bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cluster bullet cl ...too much output!
22:56:17 <fizzie> ^ul (I like this more )(~:S~:^):^
22:56:18 <fungot> I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I like this more I ...too much output!
22:56:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:57:34 <fizzie> Aw, I was hoping for a fancy error.
22:57:45 <fungot> bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees bees ...too much output!
22:57:47 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET BAR + DROP 2DUP TEST SWAP DUP CONT NIP FOO ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
22:58:10 <fizzie> \ : it useless word here ; forget it
22:58:41 <kmc> built myself a Linux 3.7.1 kernel for christmas
22:58:52 <fungot> hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! hah! ...too much output!
22:58:59 <Bike> handmade gifts are always the best ones.
22:59:04 <fizzie> nortti: You have the wrong prefix there.
22:59:36 <nortti> \ forget bar forget + forget drop forget 2dup forget test
22:59:42 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'FORGET' cannot be forgotten
22:59:51 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET SWAP DUP CONT NIP FOO ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
23:00:00 <nortti> \forget swap dup cont nip foo rot over mod
23:00:07 <elliott> 23:33:57 #esoteric: <Sgeo> elliott, what is your opinion of elliottcable?
23:00:10 <kmc> GreyKnight: i made a debian package, so kinda?
23:00:17 <elliott> Sgeo: he's annoying and dumb and once tried to buy my freenode nickname
23:00:29 <elliott> actually twice tried I guess?
23:00:34 <nortti> \ forget swap forget dup forget cont forget nip forget foo forget over forget mod
23:00:46 <fizzie> I think I made it wrong. :/
23:01:12 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + ROT >R * - / . R@ R>
23:01:20 <fizzie> Oh, or you just forgot swap before I could run it.
23:01:21 <Bike> maybe it's just doing mod 2 arithmetic, jerks
23:02:04 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + ROT >R * - / . R@ R>
23:02:11 <GreyKnight> I got myself minecraft sheet magnets for Christmas :-)
23:02:24 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET >R * - / . R@ R>
23:02:37 <oonbotti> ERROR:word ';' cannot be forgotten
23:02:43 <nortti> all of those other words can be defined with current ones
23:03:08 <fizzie> So it was good to get rid of them, since they were useless.
23:03:09 <hagb4rd> eliotts nickname can be neither bought or stolen.. *spookey organ sound* it can only be endowed
23:03:21 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'R@' cannot be forgotten
23:03:38 <oerjan> oh wait you need dup without it
23:04:45 <hagb4rd> oerjan: have you found some documenation for this bot?
23:05:01 <fizzie> It should be so that it would let you now forget r@.
23:05:12 <oonbotti> You can get help about specific command with #help <command>. Commands: #echo, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza, #/etc/passwd
23:05:14 <fizzie> (Because it's just r> dup >r.)
23:06:08 <nortti> fizzie: it doesn't compile the words but I might do that
23:06:44 <oerjan> \ r> dup . r> dup . >r >r
23:07:10 <fizzie> : dup >r r@ r> ; : r@ r> dup >r ; \and that's what you do if you have neither.
23:07:45 <oerjan> \ r> dup . r> dup . >r >r
23:08:46 <fizzie> It seems a bit unpredictable sometimes.
23:10:01 <fizzie> Oh, but oerjan's original r> dup . r> dup . >r >r is stack underflow on the return stack.
23:10:06 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:10:14 <oerjan> \ : test r> dup . r> dup . >r >r ; test
23:10:42 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET + DROP 2DUP SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
23:10:51 <oerjan> \ : test r> dup . r> dup . >r >r ; test
23:11:13 <oerjan> why doesn't that work.
23:11:47 <oerjan> \ : test r> dup . r@ . >r ; test
23:12:00 <oerjan> \ : test r> dup . r@ . >r ; test
23:12:25 <GreyKnight> Error in programmer's brain. Redo from start.
23:12:55 <oerjan> i don't see any error in my brain.
23:13:09 <fizzie> \ : it r> dup . r> dup . >r >r ; : that it ; that forget it forget that
23:13:20 <GreyKnight> it affects your onboard debugger as well
23:13:43 <oerjan> well fizzie seems to have the erro rtoo
23:14:06 <fizzie> \ : it r> dup . r@ . >r ; : that it ; that forget it forget that
23:15:04 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm not convinced that's a real return stack.
23:15:13 <oonbotti> ERROR:word 'MAUD' cannot be forgotten
23:15:14 <Sgeo> elliott, I asked a trollish question in #Node.js and he invites me into his channel to look at his programming language
23:15:15 <fizzie> nortti: Where, exactly?
23:15:22 <Sgeo> That was yesterday
23:15:27 <nortti> 23:14 < fizzie> Forget it.
23:15:38 <fizzie> That was just exasperation.
23:15:44 <monqy> Sgeo: oh what's this
23:15:50 <elliott> monqy: remember elliottcable
23:15:54 <elliott> or were you not around for that
23:16:13 <monqy> I sorta remember elliottcable and also i remember elliottcable trying to buy your irc name
23:16:21 <hagb4rd> nortti: obviously your bot
23:16:39 <nortti> hagb4rd: #help is all there is now
23:16:40 <GreyKnight> I don't know this guy elliottcable but he sounds like a barrel of laughs
23:16:56 <elliott> monqy: remember how he rejected my offer :,/
23:17:16 <monqy> 500$$ enough to pay for him impersonating you & you dealing with it
23:17:40 <nortti> hagb4rd: if you need more info you can ask me
23:17:42 <monqy> by impersonating i mean people mistaking him for you and its his fault because he bought your name and knows what hes doing :')
23:18:04 <nortti> bought elliott's name?
23:18:16 <oonbotti> : ; WORDS FORGET THAT + DROP IT 2DUP TEST SWAP DUP NIP ROT OVER MOD >R * - / . R@ R>
23:18:29 <hagb4rd> nortti: thank you.. will do so
23:18:45 <oerjan> \ forget test : test r> dup . r> >r >r ; test
23:18:58 <oerjan> \ forget test : test r> dup . >r ; test
23:19:06 <Bike> the list of words looks like song lyrics
23:19:19 <kmc> http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~rcs/research/interactive_latency.html
23:19:20 <Bike> forget that & drop it, 2dup, test swap nip mod it
23:19:48 <oerjan> baby spam me one more time
23:20:12 <oerjan> htf did i misspell that
23:20:16 <Sgeo> Why is everyone suddently interested in Forth?
23:20:23 <ais523> elliott: re my message?
23:20:29 <Bike> because there's a bot with it
23:20:29 <oerjan> Sgeo: because oonbotti has a broken one
23:20:33 <elliott> Bike: i mentally read that to the beat of technologic :/
23:20:37 <nortti> Sgeo: because my bot has half-assed implementation
23:20:40 <Bike> elliott: exactly
23:20:40 <elliott> international transportation
23:21:16 <ais523> I think it was an attempt at spam but they couldn't figure out how to do the link
23:21:30 <monqy> elliott: you mean international transportation? yeah i've seen it. really good.
23:21:30 <ais523> (example.com is what gets inserted by the "add link" button in MediaWiki)
23:21:38 <ais523> should we just userfy it?
23:21:44 <elliott> no we should just leave it
23:21:54 <elliott> well maybe there is a good reason not to
23:22:02 <elliott> but right now i can't see how touching this page could possibly improve the world
23:22:02 <monqy> elliott: i also showed nooooooooooodl
23:22:12 <Bike> you could integrate it with the interactive latency page
23:22:15 <elliott> arguably we should feature it
23:22:19 <ais523> huh, I sort-of forgot nooodl was here
23:22:25 <Bike> esolang based on a hundred and fifty million cache hits per netherland
23:22:30 <ais523> how did half of #acehack end up in #esoteric?
23:22:33 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:22:47 <ais523> (admittedly I can see how the channels would appeal to the same sorts of people)
23:22:47 <nooodl> you brought me in here! well, maybe elliott, too
23:22:53 <monqy> it was 100% elliott
23:22:56 <elliott> huh, example.com's design changed
23:22:58 <ais523> nooodl: I don't think I did directly, but perhaps I did
23:23:03 <nortti> someone create esolang named international transportation
23:23:11 <monqy> nortti: um it exists already
23:23:16 <ais523> now it looks like a Firefox error page but slightly uglier
23:23:16 <monqy> haven't you seen the page
23:23:20 <monqy> (it's on the wiki)
23:23:29 <nooodl> nah i was definitely brought here by either monqy or elliott
23:23:34 <elliott> if anyone makes a language named international transportation i'm not adding a disambiguation page, sorry
23:24:02 <monqy> remember my name is johny what the f**k
23:24:06 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
23:24:11 <nooodl> when we were discussing #esoteric in our super secret channel, by "our" i mean monqy and me, elliott has abandoned it; i blame elliott
23:24:12 <monqy> remember that other langauge, remember newkitten, remember
23:24:44 <ais523> nooodl: there are super secret channels I'm not in?
23:25:32 <Sgeo> This is the second example.com redesign that I remember...
23:25:33 <oerjan> <ais523> how did half of #acehack end up in #esoteric? <-- everyone does, eventually.
23:26:06 * monqy . o O ( who designs example.com???????????????can I design example.com )
23:26:11 <ais523> Sgeo: yeah, the first one was when it got redirected to that page at iana.org
23:26:16 <nooodl> even asiekierka (i know asiekierka from like 20 million communities)
23:26:17 <ais523> monqy: the IANA own the page
23:26:29 <monqy> but which person at IANA did the deed
23:26:31 <ais523> or at least, nobody owns the page by definition, but its nameserver entries point at the IANA's server
23:26:44 <monqy> which individual sat down and made the codes for example.com
23:27:05 <GreyKnight> I know another elliott who might want to buy your nick. Maybe we can start a bidding war.
23:27:33 <Sgeo> http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/iana.org/comment?utm_source=addon&utm_content=rw-viewsc#page-2
23:27:33 -!- Taneb has joined.
23:27:34 <Bike> maybe they could buy a nick from elliot.
23:27:49 <ais523> (not eliott, that's an abomination)
23:27:58 <Bike> oh dant, elliot is online right now
23:28:08 <monqy> maybe a nick from elliottt
23:28:09 <ais523> eliott hasn't been online for 4 weeks
23:28:14 <monqy> Q: is there an elliotttt
23:28:18 <elliott> monqy: theres actually an elliottt
23:28:27 <elliott> i get mistaken for him fairly frequently
23:28:30 <monqy> im asking about elliotttt
23:28:32 <ais523> yep, but elliottt hasn't been seen for 28 weeks
23:28:34 <elliott> (i can tell because someone asks me about galois)
23:28:36 <Bike> eliotttt's up for grabs!!
23:28:41 <ais523> yeah, eliotttt isn't registered
23:28:43 <GreyKnight> How many elliotts know Haskell? Is this a thing?
23:28:44 <elliott> er as in the haskell company galois
23:28:44 <Sgeo> http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/example.com#page-74
23:28:45 <Bike> elliott: like the groups, or
23:28:49 <monqy> how about ellioott
23:28:53 <Sgeo> It's a propaganda site. This is the so-called "scholar" who published a creationist book with pictures stolen from the internet, and which labeled a photo of a fishing fly as an actual insect. "
23:28:54 <ais523> you can have eelliott too if you want
23:29:01 <elliott> GreyKnight: me elliottt and conal are the only ones I know
23:29:04 <Sgeo> ^^^from the MyWOT page about ... example.com
23:29:15 <ais523> Sgeo: it's probably a cunning troll
23:29:28 <elliott> the aforementioned elliott is in #haskell but i dont think he knows it
23:29:31 <elliott> ais523: whats..... cunning about it
23:29:40 <Sgeo> "Mitracycles.com is a website used to scam and fraud people! Its part of a huge indonesian scam! ""
23:30:01 <monqy> "Informative for Netwokring"
23:30:19 <ais523> elliott: have you seen how stupid regular trolls are?
23:30:49 <monqy> I hit the > button and the message is "Ooops, something went wrong. Please try again later"[sic]
23:31:02 <hagb4rd> someone said adjectives were only for the weak spirited.. but i don't agreee with that.. at least most of the time
23:31:14 <ais523> wait, that's a different ≥
23:31:17 <hagb4rd> for some reason i cannot forget it
23:31:18 <ais523> what was yours? an underlined >?
23:31:19 <Bike> no, the > button
23:31:21 <monqy> it's a > button but it turned into > when i hovered it
23:32:02 <oerjan> hagb4rd: adjectives ruin the brain, don't use them ever
23:32:43 <monqy> nooodl: any luck on that
23:33:08 <nooodl> i've almost forgotten about it already
23:33:22 <monqy> you should unforget
23:34:02 <elliott> what's <GREEN>that</coler>
23:34:29 <GreyKnight> The use of adjectives cripples the mind; their teaching should, therefore, be regarded as an offense.
23:34:30 <nooodl> adding a fresh twist to zeptobasic
23:34:45 <GreyKnight> is this a colour-sensitive programming language
23:34:47 <nooodl> for it to be actually eso- instead of just a -lang
23:34:57 <monqy> green(c)zeptobasic(c)nooodl
23:35:40 <nooodl> that's not eso- at all though, look at colorforth
23:35:52 <elliott> colorforth is pretty esoteric...
23:36:24 <nooodl> i think it's unintentionally so
23:37:33 <elliott> i am sure chuck moore realises his languages are unconventional
23:38:18 <Bike> "Produces extremely compact programs."
23:38:51 <nooodl> chuck moore has more languages like this??
23:38:54 <Taneb> ~ATH is colour sensitive
23:38:57 <elliott> nooodl: well he invented forth...
23:39:31 <GreyKnight> suggestion: have three colours (r/y/b) which are separate threads of execution. Commands in combined colours execute in multiple threads simultaneously (e.g. orange commands execute in both red and yellow)
23:39:33 <nooodl> forth is pretty... normal?
23:39:36 <Taneb> It's a fictional programming language!
23:39:55 <nooodl> monqy: dont worry it doesn't make sense so it's no big deal
23:40:09 <elliott> if you think forth is normal you don't know forth
23:40:21 <Bike> "An idiosyncratic programming environment, the colors simplify Forth's semantics, speed compiling, and are said to aid Moore's own poor eyesight"
23:40:23 <GreyKnight> Klingon is fictional and it has entire volumes of stuff
23:40:49 <elliott> Bike: you should try the colorforth OS; it's an experience
23:40:52 <nooodl> it's about as normal as a stack-based programming language from the 70s could be
23:40:56 <monqy> is lojban fictional
23:41:09 <elliott> nooodl: forth isn't just about the stacks.
23:41:23 <Bike> «There is some controversy about colorForth marginalizing color blind programmers, but Moore has stated that color is only one option for displaying the language. One of Moore's papers on colorForth was printed in black and white, but used italics and other typographical conventions to present source code.»
23:41:41 <monqy> what about fully blind programmers
23:41:47 <monqy> how do you pronounce hello
23:42:02 <nooodl> look i can't handle this vagueness in every single thing you ever try to tell me about
23:42:09 <monqy> how do you feel goodbye
23:42:10 <nooodl> just tell me why you think forth is esoteric plain and simple
23:42:16 <elliott> if you want to know why forth is interesting then you should learn forth
23:42:25 <Bike> elliott: when you say "an experience" do you mean like a http://www.members.tripod.com/cpu_bios/ experienc
23:42:38 <monqy> how do you taste codes
23:42:40 <ais523> forth isn't really that eso
23:42:41 <hagb4rd> monqy: depends on the set and the setting
23:42:50 <ais523> but it isn't in the same direction as more ordinary langauges either
23:42:54 <elliott> i don't really feel compelled to explain everything about forth to you so that you'd understand it just because you wrongly stated that colorforth is chuck moore's only weird language...
23:43:17 <hagb4rd> maybe the blind could taste colors using lsd-25
23:43:19 <elliott> Bike: this reminds me of losethos
23:43:35 <GreyKnight> monqy: we should have a taste-based esolang, please design one kthx
23:43:42 <elliott> oh boy losethos got renamed
23:43:47 <monqy> GreyKnight: sounds like a "syntax thing"
23:43:51 <Bike> elliott: schizophrenic's DOS-based OS, though he seems to have taken down the download links
23:43:51 <nooodl> oh my god i remember cpu_bios
23:44:02 <Bike> i think i have some screenshots laying around
23:44:02 <Taneb> ~ATH is based on the concept of deconstructors, and the standard libraries include many deconstructors, for instance the author and the universe
23:44:05 <elliott> Bike: sounds like losethos
23:44:14 <Bike> I don't know what that is but probably
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23:44:28 <elliott> Bike: it's... hard to explain
23:44:29 <nooodl> let's wayback machine this
23:44:37 <elliott> Bike: let's go with "schizophrenic's DOS-like OS" but so much more
23:44:41 <elliott> i wonder if that guy is ok
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23:44:54 <Bike> Taneb: how does this interplay with on grammatology
23:44:59 <Bike> elliott: sounds fun
23:45:00 <Taneb> And all code is written in near-infinite loops based around the death of things
23:45:07 <Bike> *of grammatology
23:45:11 <nooodl> that depends on what you mean by "ok"!
23:45:19 <nortti> elliott: he has returned under different name
23:45:21 <monqy> GreyKnight: ternary encoding of brainfuck (+ "hello/world" command) where each tribby is 0=bitter, 1=salty, 2=sickeninglyly sweet
23:45:24 <elliott> Bike: it's fun until you start worrying about him
23:45:28 <monqy> GreyKnight: i think this is a good esolang???
23:45:32 <Bike> elliott: i'm used to that
23:45:58 <GreyKnight> @tell Phantom_Hoover monqy is inventing a BF derivative BTW
23:46:06 <Bike> «A troll might ask, "Why not just use DOS? It was ring-0-only and single-address-map."» oh boy
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23:46:30 <monqy> @ask phantom_hoover spec: 15:45:20 <monqy> GreyKnight: ternary encoding of brainfuck (+ "hello/world" command) where each tribby is 0=bitter, 1=salty, 2=sickeninglyly sweet
23:46:33 <Bike> «It's like a modern, souped-up, multi-tasking, cross between DOS and a Commodore 64.» is the schizophrenia really necessary
23:46:34 <nooodl> http://atomicbios.tripod.com/ mmmmmm
23:46:45 <GreyKnight> Bike: do you have a wayback version of the page? I want to see this
23:46:58 <Bike> what is it with these people and basic
23:47:16 <elliott> i think losethos is interesting as well as not very good
23:47:19 <Bike> GreyKnight: i haven't looked for one, but i could dig up the forum threads i heard about him from i suppose
23:47:33 <monqy> heyyyy, i remember losethos
23:47:39 <GreyKnight> multitasking DOS, now I've heard everything
23:48:01 <Taneb> Bike, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=6&p=003926
23:48:04 <nooodl> i remember this guy from /prog/
23:48:05 <nooodl> http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1319987424
23:48:18 <monqy> *sparrowos [be modern, everyone. respect]
23:48:24 <Bike> nooodl: ah yep that's him
23:48:34 <nooodl> activate(brain(atomic(chaos(abyss(weather(x))))))
23:48:57 <nooodl> worm.txt contained... a whole bunch of definitions for these i think?
23:49:13 <nooodl> * Contains the new BongDust(x) exploit.
23:49:18 <Bike> wow, i have a lot of pictures of crazy things, but none of them are for W++ specifically
23:49:24 <monqy> * Know how to operate the logic mind.
23:49:27 <nooodl> http://ompldr.org/vYnY2Ng
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23:49:56 <Bike> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12780151/1309996048104.gif yeah oh well
23:50:23 <Bike> part 5 is "extra functions". part 6 is "activate super anatomy"
23:50:43 <Bike> i'd like to note, taneb, that this image also involves deconstruction
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23:50:46 <Bike> explain the connection!
23:50:53 <nooodl> WPPA: WORM++ PART A FINAL FORMULAS
23:51:00 <nooodl> guys this part sounds good
23:51:14 <Bike> jesus how long is this
23:51:39 <Bike> «During errors in completion of stated impossible healing and transformation, with defects in sexual insight; huge missing pieces wrongly and proudly believed as fulfilled.» this is the best error code ever
23:51:41 <monqy> this worm.txt thing is amazing and it is amazing somebody wrote this
23:52:11 <nooodl> THE 24 STEPS TO FINISHING A PROJECT:
23:52:34 <Bike> http://www.sparrowos.com/Wb/Accts/TS/Wb2/SparrowOS.BMP oh hell yes.
23:52:43 <nooodl> [Step 20]= VIP, Very Important Project
23:52:45 <Bike> a .BMP. beautiful
23:53:11 <kmc> you know it's a BMP because it loads from the bottom
23:53:30 <elliott> Bike: you should watch the videos; screenshots don't do it justice
23:53:33 <elliott> it's constantly flickering
23:53:37 <elliott> all the window titles are ticker-taped
23:53:38 <nooodl> watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc7UNXQuNEU
23:53:38 <monqy> A very good pure innocent human person who has greatly
23:53:38 <monqy> helped mankind and the universe.
23:53:40 <Bike> we talking cobol on cogs here
23:53:46 <Bike> ticker tape really
23:53:48 <monqy> key(224) = The lords of cell biology godsend.
23:53:58 <GreyKnight> Bike: MODERN KHEMETIC ERA even flatter what
23:54:00 <monqy> Mentality of the Lords of Chaos:
23:54:00 <monqy> Chaos1. When we know all we are violent and lawful.
23:54:00 <monqy> Chaos2. Evil is our essence and we despise anything holy.
23:54:00 <monqy> Chaos3. We are anything we want because we are gods.
23:54:11 <kmc> FEF=TARDIS(SRE||OME)
23:54:20 <monqy> i think w++ is my favorite language
23:54:24 <Taneb> I might try ot write an OS
23:54:26 <Taneb> How hard can it be (tm)
23:54:36 <Bike> GreyKnight: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12780151/ithinkyourecrazy.jpg open your mind
23:54:37 <kmc> someone must feed this document to fungot
23:54:38 <fungot> kmc: why to which? :) the original schemes had that in the first place
23:54:39 <elliott> "no more hollow praise from goofy gays / it's too shallow. deserves nothing but haze"
23:54:46 <elliott> (loseth|sparrow)os is beautiful
23:54:59 <Taneb> It will be the opposite of @ in that it will be awful in every way
23:55:01 <Bike> oh my god it is ticker taping
23:55:07 <Taneb> I shall call it...
23:55:19 <elliott> Bike: i've seen a picture like that dropbox link before
23:55:20 <Bike> is... is this the bible he's looking at
23:55:26 <nooodl> Show. Show don't tell. / Know your own hell.
23:55:51 <Bike> elliott: i don't remember linking it here, but some people like me find these things amusing and collect them, so it's possible. also they all sort of blend together after a while
23:55:57 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LSTyl-gfQg the animations in this one
23:56:01 <kmc> VITA: BongDust(x) = Imagine smoking these in bong.
23:56:18 <Bike> "Songs generated randomly (by God)"
23:56:26 <nooodl> kmc: watch out for the BongDust(x) exploit though
23:56:55 <kmc> not sure if this is a religion, a programming language, or a role-playing game
23:56:58 <Bike> GreyKnight: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12780151/ann.png now can you tell the difference between the one that was in a SIGGRAPH paper and the one taht wasn't?!
23:56:58 <nooodl> jesus... i'm starting to imagine terry davis listening to these songs 24/7
23:57:01 <nooodl> while programming losethos
23:57:22 <elliott> i think kmc uses the bongdust(x) exploit every day
23:57:40 <Bike> whoa, animations
23:57:43 <nooodl> what if worm.txt is actually a really hard ARG puzzle or something
23:57:45 <Bike> right in the term!!
23:57:46 <nooodl> i want to tell myself this
23:57:53 <kmc> JASON's MAGIC BONG DUST
23:58:14 <Bike> are these animated bmps? they should be
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23:58:33 <monqy> The shine mode means things in your program are very vibrant
23:58:33 <monqy> beyond the allowed media. This means brighter than all memories
23:58:33 <monqy> of the brightest star.
23:58:35 <GreyKnight> Bike: we were talking about telnet://telehack.com earlier (try "starwars")
23:58:52 <nooodl> monqy: i'm going to always keep #mode shine on when programming, thanks
23:59:03 <kmc> JASON's MAGIC BONG DUST
23:59:03 <kmc> 1) BANANA MIXTURE
23:59:03 <kmc> 2) CRUSHED CLOVES
23:59:11 <kmc> MIX AND POUND ALL INGREDIENTS INTO POWDER
23:59:11 <kmc> PRODUCES WONDERFUL PIPE SMOKE
23:59:13 <Bike> GreyKnight: very nice
23:59:27 <Bike> wait, how long does this go
23:59:31 <kmc> #mode shine on you crazy diamond
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00:00:17 <monqy> Imagine we are smoking a bong has a MPE for these vitamin bong
00:00:17 <monqy> powders. Pretend you are smoking this dust in a pipe, the
00:00:17 <monqy> formula for this action is ElectPulse(Metabolism(MPE)) when
00:00:17 <monqy> we fake we are smoking a pipe we ElectPulse(x) and when we
00:00:17 <monqy> know what we are smoking we create gelatin(x) and the effect
00:00:19 <monqy> on our behavior is staggering.
00:00:27 <nooodl> Bike: couple of minutes, then it becomes a rickroll
00:00:35 <Bike> this is even weirder than the time i saw terminator 2 as a gif
00:00:53 <monqy> Baby Blue Dust(x) = Found youth.
00:01:01 <monqy> Off White Dust(x) = Fertile dreams.
00:01:07 <monqy> Bright Green Dust(x) = Know all.
00:01:07 <monqy> Light Blue Dust(x) = Animal romance.
00:01:15 <monqy> nooodl how did you find this
00:01:19 <kmc> "We use the gelatin(x) function to mean chemical gelatin."
00:01:22 <kmc> ok, seems reasonable
00:01:24 <kmc> "This substance called Chemical Gelatin is the process the brain uses to transform meaning of words into chemicals."
00:01:47 <nooodl> it's a world4ch textboard and well, the worst people on earth frequent it
00:01:53 <nooodl> but sometimes you run into comedy gold like this
00:02:00 <nooodl> (tdavis posts on /prog/ sometimes)
00:02:02 <Bike> it's more like a continuous rocket thrust through crazyland, greyknight
00:03:15 <kmc> #begin LastWish(x){
00:03:17 <kmc> TARDIS(TransReverie(gelatin(DoneState(x))))
00:03:28 <nooodl> i should keep track of all the good prog threads
00:03:28 <GreyKnight> RE: SparrowOS.BMP: I like how (a) .Z files use a custom compression format not supported by any other OS ever, and (b) the text file describing how to deal with them under Windows is itself a .Z
00:03:42 <kmc> ok i think i need to add "or poetry" to my list of possibilities
00:03:45 <nooodl> (i'd say about 95% of them are bad, 3% meh, 2% good)
00:03:48 <Bike> "good prog threads"
00:04:07 <kmc> at least for "WPP8: WORM++ PART 8 BUNDLES OF PROGRAMS" which seems to be a kind of standard library
00:04:14 <Bike> kmc: he has poetry on his tripod site and his facebook and/or wherever people were stocking him to
00:04:49 <elliott> i used to read /prog/ in like uh
00:04:58 <nooodl> Bike: well, worm.txt was posted in one thead so obviously there are good /prog/ threads
00:05:00 <monqy> i've never read /prog/
00:05:02 <GreyKnight> Bike: your speech transcriber is showing hth
00:05:03 <elliott> (then i stopped because it became terrible rather than just really bad)
00:05:39 <kmc> THE 8 MAIN CAUSES OF DEATH
00:05:41 <nooodl> elliott: depending on when you stopped reading it's now either "worse than terrible" or "a lot worse than terrible"
00:05:42 <kmc> 07= Huge balls of confusing horror makes you laugh to death.
00:05:59 <GreyKnight> kmc: that's not funny, my granda died that way >:-(
00:06:10 <kmc> hehe, huge balls
00:07:19 <GreyKnight> wait why isn't .Z-ness just a file attribute
00:07:53 <GreyKnight> recycle the archive bit if needs be, not like anybody ever uses it :-U
00:15:52 <GreyKnight> "You probably know that arrogance, in computer science, is measured in nanodijkstras." -- Alan Kay
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00:36:30 <GreyKnight> links on http://esolangs.org/wiki/4DL are dead :-(
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00:42:03 <greyooze> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Headache "You can only work with one stack at a time." Very first command listed operates on both stacks at the same time.
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00:43:15 <GreyKnight> and fifth, and sixth, and tenth, and eleventh...
00:44:10 <Bike> it says /you/ can only work with one stack at a time, says nothing about the language itself!!!
00:44:24 <FreeFull> There should be a language where you can only operate on all five stacks at the same time
00:44:51 <kmc> Category:Shameful
00:45:17 <Bike> "Hello World (Branchless)" a great achievement for a hello world
00:45:40 <Bike> it specifies "GNU Cat" as if it's going to have all the options
00:47:07 <Bike> http://www.sparrowos.com/Wb/Doc/TrivialSolutions.html#l1 oh my
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00:48:17 <Bike> «Music is done with an elegant one-voice notation.» oh now that ain't cool
00:48:42 <kmc> 40+ year old person who still lists their SAT score
00:48:45 <kmc> and it isn't 1600
00:49:34 <Bike> oh he has a subreddit
00:49:53 <Bike> «SparrowOS V1.01 Released: Compiler has built-in "result" variable similar to "this" in C++»
00:49:56 <oerjan> GreyKnight: try the 4DL page again now :)
00:49:58 <kmc> is there a category on the wiki for esolangs that have syntax like normal programming languages?
00:50:13 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/SparrowOS/comments/11kmm9/sparrowos_v101_released_compiler_has_builtin/ ohhhh myyyyy
00:50:14 <kmc> or anything but the worn out "every character is a command like brainfuck"
00:50:19 <nortti> have you seen gnu hello?
00:50:27 <GreyKnight> "PS/2 keyboard/mouse is used instead of USB, also more compatible." what
00:50:51 <Bike> kmc: butbut parsing is hard :'(
00:50:53 <Taneb> kmc, I think that's what people use "high level" for
00:51:08 <kmc> Bike: i think that's not it even
00:51:10 <Bike> i'm honestly pretty lost on what this has to do with C++
00:51:22 <Bike> other than that... it's a reserved word, i guess?
00:51:37 <GreyKnight> http://www.sparrowos.com/Wb/Doc/Acknowledgements.html#l1 <-- wait, first paragraph implies this is a commercial product
00:51:42 <ais523> kmc: "every character is a command" is good for when you don't want parsers to get in the way
00:52:40 <Bike> GreyKnight: well, you can download it free.
00:52:47 <Bike> maybe it's shareware, in true DOS fashion.
00:53:31 <Bike> «God told me to stick with 640x480x16 color and kept me from blindly making child windows like Windows. Instead, I made one window per task with no child windows. He also guided my progress, very obviously.» elliott's right, this is worrying...
00:53:46 <elliott> Bike: thats not nearly the most worrying thing hes said by a long way
00:54:11 <kmc> yeah i received similar insights when i was working on that boot sector demo
00:54:18 <elliott> he liked to post random words his program generated "from god" as reddit comments and also had "CIA is watching me"-style rants on twitter
00:54:25 <elliott> er as in streams of random words
00:54:54 <GreyKnight> it does exactly what he claims, the "most trivial solution"
00:55:16 <elliott> Bike: i actually like that "result" thing, it is sort of declarative!
00:55:24 <elliott> okay i only kind of like it
00:55:31 <GreyKnight> whether or not that is a good idea is an exercise for the reader :-P
00:56:31 <Bike> elliott: i think algol w did something like it? you assigned to a variable with the name of the function, and that'd be the value returned
00:56:52 <ais523> Bike: some BASICs do that
00:57:04 <Bike> well, algol 60, apparently. not like i know algol beyond knuth
00:57:10 <elliott> Bike: pascal does that i think
00:58:56 <GreyKnight> "Buttons are widgets, not child windows." <-- how innovative!
01:01:15 <ais523> they're windows in Windows, or at least always used to be
01:02:04 <Bike> thank god God was there to steer him right.
01:04:35 <ais523> some sort of button window class
01:05:00 <Bike> um, i thought buttons and things were sometimes subwindows in X too.
01:06:02 <Bike> a window is just a probably-box-shaped thing to render to
01:06:20 <kmc> funny how the internet is a small place sometimes
01:07:04 <GreyKnight> so wait are all widgets subwindows in Windows?
01:07:08 <kmc> i read an article critiquing the world health organization's metrics for parasite treatment programs
01:07:15 <kmc> and the first comment is by gwern and mentions haskell
01:07:43 <Bike> what article is that? (and what could that possibly have to do with haskell)
01:07:45 <GreyKnight> if so that OS's name just got a whole lot more appropriate
01:08:25 <kmc> http://blog.givewell.org/2011/09/29/errors-in-dcp2-cost-effectiveness-estimate-for-deworming/
01:08:37 <kmc> the connection between the two is "excel sucks"
01:08:43 <kmc> ok i lied when i said i read this article
01:08:53 <Bike> so how'd you get to it?
01:09:07 <kmc> more like i spent 5 seconds looking at it and then trusted the smart people at givewell to do their jobs so i don't have to
01:09:29 <kmc> got to it by following links from givewell's writeup of Schistosomiasis Control Initiative which is their #3 charity
01:09:48 <Bike> "That spreadsheet contains five separate errors that, when corrected, shift the estimated cost effectiveness of deworming from $3.41 to $326.43." ah, accounting
01:10:47 <Bike> hm, did i make a function to get me a tree of x windows
01:12:32 <elliott> i think i dislike givewell for something but i forget what entirely
01:12:55 <Bike> yeah i don't remember enough X to do this again do I
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01:14:16 <greyooze> `addquote <kmc> ok i lied when i said i read this article
01:14:19 <HackEgo> 886) <kmc> ok i lied when i said i read this article
01:14:33 <kmc> elliott: oh if you find out, let me know
01:14:42 <Bike> so what is givewell
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01:15:02 <Bike> oh, charity accuracy gizmo
01:15:04 <elliott> alternatively read the sidebar kmc linked
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01:15:19 <Bike> charity suckiness gizmo
01:15:19 <elliott> they recommend charities based on analyses
01:15:26 <kmc> they try to determine the best few charities on a strict utilitarian basis
01:15:33 <kmc> so it's not just about whether the charities are lying or whatever
01:15:41 <kmc> but also about how much good they do per dollar
01:15:44 <kmc> and whether they can use more money
01:16:04 <Bike> so they probably rate the go around taking worms out of people's feet charity higher than TOMS
01:16:12 <kmc> what's TOMS
01:16:40 <Bike> they're a shoe company. «When Toms sells a pair of shoes a pair of shoes is given to an impoverished child, and when Toms sells a pair of eyewear, part of the profit is used to save or restore the eyesight for people in developing countries.»
01:16:52 <elliott> topiary orgasm mechanisation service
01:17:12 <Bike> they've been criticized for destroying economies and bla bla
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01:18:12 <GreyKnight> Bike: I'd think splinters would be a problem...
01:18:35 <Bike> i think worms usually hit people because they walk in shallow water
01:18:44 <Bike> shallow and stagnant and all, i mean
01:21:02 <kmc> the world's wealthiest non-profit foundation is IKEA
01:21:11 <kmc> that's the stupid world we live in
01:21:29 <Bike> it... what? it is?
01:22:12 <kmc> IKEA is largely owned by a Dutch non-profit dedicated "to promote and support innovation in the field of architectural and interior design"
01:22:16 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA#Corporate_structure
01:22:25 <Bike> also when i googled it the first thing i got were some news articles about a monkey
01:22:34 <kmc> which pays salaries and gives "grants" to ikea designers and what-not
01:22:42 <kmc> i think this has actually backfired on them though
01:22:49 <kmc> because they can't exfiltrate money quickly enough
01:22:58 <Bike> ...wow, what the fuck is this
01:23:10 <Bike> "The ownership of Inter IKEA Systems is exceedingly complicated and, ultimately, uncertain."
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01:24:04 <Bike> «In the 2008 Sichuan earthquake in China, IKEA Beijing sold an alligator toy for 40 yuan (US$5.83, €3.70) with all income going to the children in the earthquake struck area» hooray
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01:24:28 <Taneb> SO... nobody knows who owns IKEA
01:24:44 <Bike> I have a theory. I think it's those rich guys.
01:24:50 <elliott> yes I like how it basically says "IKEA is owned by uh... someone"
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01:35:12 <kmc> obviously IKEA is owned by Majestic-12
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01:46:27 <kmc> the beijing - guangzhou high speed rail line opened today
01:46:31 <kmc> longest high speed line in the world
01:48:12 <Bike> we need trans-siberian maglev
01:49:55 <kmc> there is a planned 300km+ maglev line in Japan
01:49:56 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%AB%C5%8D_Shinkansen
01:50:02 <Bike> uh, so that we can cross the wastes at three hundred miles an hour, duh?
01:50:18 <kmc> it incorporates the JR-Maglev test track :D
01:50:53 <Bike> wow, a forty year old maglev track?
01:51:13 <Bike> fifty years, then.
01:51:20 <elliott> "JR Central aims to begin commercial service between Tokyo and Nagoya in 2027, with the Nagoya-Osaka section to be completed in 2045."
01:51:45 <elliott> "On November 16, 2004, it also set a world record for two trains passing each other at a combined speed of 1,026 km/h (638 mph)."
01:51:50 <elliott> if two trains pass each other at the speed of light...
01:51:54 <Bike> that sounds terrifying
01:52:24 <elliott> i think once the trains get to a certain speed you might actually make people feel more comfortable by removing the windows
01:53:20 <Bike> isn't that what they did with conchord jets, or was that just technical limitations
01:54:13 <Bike> spelling is just the man's way of putting us down, man.
01:55:54 <kmc> nothing to see up there though
01:56:46 <kmc> "Concorde was equipped with smaller windows to reduce the rate of loss in the event of a breach"
01:56:58 <Jafet> This is why Neo didn't fight the establishment in japan
01:57:39 <kmc> sucks that they cancelled the concorde after one crash
01:57:54 <elliott> Reflecting the treaty between the French and British governments which led to Concorde's construction, the name Concorde is from the French word concorde (IPA: [kɔ̃kɔʁd]), which has an English equivalent, concord. Both words mean agreement, harmony or union.
01:58:00 <elliott> The aircraft was initially referred to in the UK as Concorde, with the French spelling, but was officially changed to Concord by Harold Macmillan in response to a perceived slight by Charles de Gaulle.[12]
01:58:04 <Jafet> They cancelled it because it didn't make money
01:58:15 <elliott> kmc: wikipedia lists several other factors
01:58:21 <elliott> ...it also says it was profitable :p
01:58:22 <kmc> sure, the accident was a convenient excuse
01:58:26 <kmc> still it was a major factor
01:58:44 <elliott> In 1967, at the French roll-out in Toulouse the British Government Minister for Technology, Tony Benn, announced that he would change the spelling back to Concorde.[12] This created a nationalist uproar that died down when Benn stated that the suffixed ⟨e⟩ represented "Excellence, England, Europe and Entente (Cordiale)."
01:58:50 <Bike> degaulle just pisses everyone off, doesn't he
01:59:05 <kmc> that's fantastic
01:59:14 <elliott> the 60s: what??? what happened
01:59:41 <elliott> I like the idea of a "Europe" suffix being considered a positive nationalist thing in Britain
01:59:49 <Jafet> I think it was profitable until they had to pay the designers
02:00:11 <Jafet> Yes, Britain and Europe are two distinct nations
02:00:28 <kmc> two countries separated by the english channel
02:00:52 <Jafet> More than BBC separates these feuding families
02:01:16 <kmc> meanwhile the 747 has crashed like 50 times
02:01:39 <GreyKnight> Clubs, bills, and partisans! Strike! Beat them down!
02:02:23 <kmc> i think concorde still has one of the best safety rates per hour flown, but i'm not sure
02:02:43 <Jafet> That's mainly because everyone, including idiots, use 747s
02:03:06 <kmc> possibly related to the fact that it didn't fly with Crazy Holiday Discount Airlines
02:03:18 <Jafet> Also cars have crashed a billion times or so
02:04:50 <Bike> best billion out of two billion and one, i say
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02:50:05 <DH____> Europe isn't a nation, just as NATO isn't a nation...
02:51:01 <elliott> thanks for the info I had no idea!
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02:51:55 <kmc> the trams in tallinn will be free starting in 2013
02:52:04 * DH____ backs quietly into a corner in shame...
02:56:24 <GreyKnight> i am the king of europe you are rong >:-(
03:02:06 <kmc> Europe isn't a nation, just as Asia isn't a nation...
03:02:16 <kmc> Europe ≠ the EU
03:03:07 <kmc> proof: the EU has a higher topological genus than Europe
03:03:43 <Fiora> it has more holes?
03:04:10 <kmc> switzerland
03:07:29 <kmc> monaco, vatican city, san marino
03:07:45 <kmc> liechtenstein
03:09:21 <kmc> oh but monaco is on the coast
03:09:48 * kmc has low ranks in "where is monaco"
03:10:05 <Bike> i think everything i've learned about monaco is from Our Dumb World
03:10:55 <Jafet> kmc should play europe tetris
03:12:56 <Fiora> huh, monaco is the densest country, even higher than singapore
03:13:52 <Bike> what about papal density, though
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03:14:53 <HackEgo> 708) <fizzie> Stupid W|A doesn't even understand "Vatican papal density". (As far as countries go, they've got a quite high one.)
03:14:57 <elliott> I guess Bike was probably referencing that
03:15:05 <elliott> wait I thought of a dumb joke
03:15:13 <elliott> Fiora: yeah those singaporeans are really dense hah hah
03:15:22 <elliott> (the joke is it also means dumb)
03:15:38 <ion> > cycle "HA"
03:15:39 <elliott> glad to waste your time, no problem, any time (ha I repeated the word "time")
03:15:39 <lambdabot> "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
03:16:16 <Bike> it's good to know what i'm referencing.
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03:20:17 <kmc> 1.21 jiggapopes
03:20:26 <kmc> @pontifex lol wtf #fail
03:22:14 <Bike> is there any expectation that they will be any time soon?
03:22:25 <Bike> because i don't see why they'd join
03:22:41 <Fiora> I think they just don't want to share their chocolate
03:22:48 <Fiora> which is a legit excuse
03:23:44 <Jafet> Unlike Belgians, who SOLD OUT
03:24:15 <Bike> man the swiss didn't join anyone when they were being bombed by germans, they just ain't give a damn
03:24:17 <ais523> the swiss don't join any organization like that ever
03:24:23 <ais523> it's one of the things they're famous for
03:24:30 <Bike> 2 legit 2... nazi... something...
03:25:22 <Jafet> The swiss don't really have peers
03:25:54 <Jafet> The british used to, which explains their capitulation
03:26:06 <Bike> and i suppose the vatican's guards are swiss, too. maybe all the holes have a secret disorganization organization.
03:27:17 <GreyKnight> Well, Vatican City remains a hole because it's historically a very holey place B-)
03:27:59 <Jafet> Camera cuts to skyline of the see
03:28:11 <Bike> no, no, someone needs to come up with one about swiss cheese first.
03:28:20 <Fiora> that's too obvious though!
03:28:43 <Bike> if it was obvious why hasn't it been made? checkmate atheists.
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03:39:00 <kmc> they hella collaborated with the nazis though
03:39:13 <kmc> nazis found it convenient to have banks in an ostensibly neutral country...
03:39:30 <hagb4rd> bike: i never knew that the nazis bombed swiss? are you sure?
03:39:53 <Bike> hagb4rd: yes, by accident
03:40:10 <Bike> and they planned to take it over eventually because swiss people are german, but, you know, nazi plans
03:40:56 <Bike> no, but wikipedia does! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_of_Switzerland_in_World_War_II
03:41:22 <Bike> oh wow there weren't any nazi ones
03:41:40 <elliott> looks like the nazis are even worse at executing their plans than you thought Bike
03:42:05 <hagb4rd> mssing the target by just a few countries :P
03:42:19 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum oh, this is what i was thinking of
03:42:22 <elliott> "Switzerland was a neutral country during World War II but adjacent to and at times completely surrounded by Axis countries. On several occasions Allied bombing raids hit targets in Switzerland resulting in fatalities and property damage."
03:42:52 <Bike> "a pimple on the face of europe", oh man
03:43:22 <Bike> elliott: it turns out that apparently when you bomb people at night and just invented radar you kind of have no damn idea where you are
03:44:12 <hagb4rd> +you're head is full of pervitin (methyl-amphetamine)
03:44:39 <elliott> "While Allied forces explained the causes of violations as navigation errors, equipment failure, weather conditions, and pilots’ errors, in Switzerland fear was expressed that some neutrality violations were intended to exert pressure on the country to end its economic cooperation with Nazi Germany."
03:44:46 <Bike> "whoops, sorry, missed. you know, have you ever really looked at your hands?"
03:44:54 <elliott> the whole structure we build up around bombing the fuck out of people is amazing to me
03:45:10 <Bike> i think you mean Strategic Bombing
03:45:15 <elliott> "sorry, we can't murder people in switzerland. they said they didn't want it"
03:45:45 <Bike> how many people died, anyway. 21, from the article?
03:45:48 <hagb4rd> well..communication is everything
03:46:13 <Bike> switzerland you wuss, russia lost like four billion
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03:46:24 <elliott> well 21 people is like half of switzerland's population
03:47:02 <elliott> okay it's actually 0.0002625%
03:47:09 <Bike> i guess the other half were /really/ into selling nazis things if they overlooked the bombing then
03:47:27 <elliott> well all the swiss do is spend lots of money
03:47:37 <elliott> and have a flag that's the wrong fucking shape
03:47:48 <Bike> nepal does too... is it a mountain thing
03:47:53 <Bike> also: which kind is giger
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03:49:09 <elliott> look i just write the theories
03:49:13 <elliott> the evidence-gathering is up to you
03:49:16 <Bike> hm, bhutan's is the right shape, but there's a pretty kitschy dragon on it
03:49:50 <elliott> i guess they are into direct democracy because you can't really sustain a government with 42 people
03:50:03 <Bike> i... can't think of any other mountain countries? at least, ones that are tiny
03:50:14 <elliott> Bike: wtf are you talking about, that dragon is metal as hell
03:50:53 <Bike> i must respectfully disagree, and furthermore postulate that you are in fact fucked
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03:51:40 <Bike> oh jesus is it carrying fruit
03:52:24 <elliott> are you going to tell a dragon it can't fucking carry fruit
03:52:57 <Bike> ok apparently their anthem is "The Thunder Dragon Kingdom"
03:53:05 <Bike> i guess that makes up for the fruit
03:53:20 <hagb4rd> o yes fruits.. i need fruits
03:53:34 <Bike> oh shit it has an official dance
03:53:40 <Bike> every anthem should have a dance.
03:53:47 <Bike> eat an orange, ciel.
03:54:31 <kmc> switzerland is also into not letting women vote
03:55:36 <elliott> well if you get bombed and only have 21 people left
03:55:40 <elliott> it's possible none of them are women
03:55:50 <elliott> like maybe the bomb managed to kill all the women and nobody else
03:56:56 <elliott> well it's entirely possible all the men were misogynists who were glad to be rid of them
03:57:29 <Bike> so, i went looking for small mountain countries, and «The Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus (MRNC; also known as the Mountain Republic or the Republic of the Mountaineers; 1917–1920) was a short-lived state»
03:59:00 <Bike> it was during the early modern "fucking clusterfuck
03:59:05 <Bike> " period of russian history.
03:59:37 <hagb4rd> you need to look for countries _surrounded by_ mountains..
03:59:56 <Bike> isn't that only switzerland
04:00:21 <elliott> switzerland is actually a crater
04:00:26 <elliott> created during the wwii bombinbs of switzerland
04:00:37 <hagb4rd> though hannibal was crossing the alps with his war elephants to kick the shit out of rome
04:00:51 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaziland okay how about this, this could work
04:01:01 <Bike> their flag has a normal shape too...
04:01:26 <Fiora> aren't some countries like kyrgystan practically surrounded by mountains?
04:01:45 <kmc> you get a B+ in "spelling kyrgyzstan"
04:02:04 <hagb4rd> it's not surrounded by mountains..
04:02:05 <elliott> kmc: kyrgyzstan get an F- in "naming your country"
04:02:06 <Bike> too big, i'm telling you
04:02:28 <hagb4rd> but you can't beat the folks out of that mountains in the north
04:02:32 <Bike> also swaziland has an average life expectancy of 31.88 years
04:02:32 <kmc> "clinton deploys vowels to bosnia"
04:02:37 <Bike> so uh. that's pretty sad.
04:02:46 <kmc> "cities of sjlbvdnzv, grzny to be first recipients"
04:03:14 <Bike> "let's lighten your mood with bosnia jokes"
04:03:40 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic
04:03:43 <hagb4rd> or even sealand with its 3 or 4 M60 brownings machine guns
04:03:53 <kmc> "His government members were also not always well-chosen. For instance, the Foreign Affairs Deputy Dr. Franz Lipp (who had been admitted several times to psychiatric hospitals), declared war on Switzerland over the Swiss refusal to lend 60 locomotives"
04:04:07 <kmc> "He also claimed to be well acquainted with Pope Benedict XV and he informed Vladimir Lenin via cable that the ousted former Minister-President Hoffmann had fled to Bamberg and taken the key to the ministry toilet with him."
04:04:26 <Bike> i think we found out why all the swiss died, elliott.
04:04:36 <elliott> i think i found my new hero
04:05:17 <Bike> "he was shot dead by the right-wing nationalist Anton Graf von Arco auf Valley, who was rejected from membership in the Thule Society because of Jewish ancestry on his mother's side" why do they mention this? how is it related
04:05:48 <Jafet> It's part of a jewish conspiracy
04:06:06 <Bike> oh dang this article has both the thule society and thurn und taxis, that's like half a conspiracy bingo.
04:06:15 <Bike> oh, and communists.
04:06:42 <hagb4rd> and don't forget: the beavers
04:07:22 <kmc> i like the idea that if you name your country a Soviet Republic you automatically get the right to call up Lenin on the telephone and complain about bathroom pranks
04:07:42 <elliott> well why else would you do it
04:08:43 <kmc> and then he's just like http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz3xws8MGl1r8wxeyo1_500.jpg
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04:10:03 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T2uBeiNXAo
04:11:46 <Bike> who are the rest of them on the phone with
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04:14:35 <hagb4rd> bike: well.. the presidents staff i guess
04:15:10 <hagb4rd> if you haven't seen this movie yet, go for it..
04:15:49 <hagb4rd> it's one of kubricks first masterpieces
04:17:04 <Bike> i think the best part about it is when they made a film from the same book, except not taking the piss the whole time
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04:18:24 <Bike> oh, no, based on Fail-Safe, which was similar enough that one sued the other. but still.
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04:28:21 <kmc> "the last available World Health Organization data in 2002 shows that 64% of all deaths in [Swaziland] were caused by HIV/AIDS"
04:28:29 <kmc> that's why the life expectancy is 31.88 years :(
04:28:57 <Bike> that's like black plague level depopulation, isn't it
04:30:28 <kmc> if you are born in this country there is like a 1 in 3 chance you already have aids
04:31:22 <kmc> elliott: so did you figure out what you thought is wrong with givewell
04:33:21 <elliott> i would @tell myself but lambdabot doesn't let me
04:33:38 <kmc> will lambdabot alert you multiple times
04:33:49 <kmc> or is it ineffective as soon as you say anything
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04:34:05 <elliott> i'm leaving so you can @tell me now!
04:36:55 <hagb4rd> this must be sort of a running gag isn't it?
04:37:08 <kmc> hi shachaf
04:37:21 <kmc> @ask elliott so did you figure out what you thought is wrong with givewell?
04:38:13 <Jafet> You need to remind elliott that if he talks again today, he needs to remind you to remind him again
04:38:37 <kmc> how is your xmas
04:39:52 <kmc> how did you come up with that character
04:40:04 <kmc> > fromEnum 'ⲭ'
04:40:04 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
04:40:05 <Bike> what the hell is that? a fucked up chi?
04:40:11 <shachaf> 2CAD COPTIC SMALL LETTER KHI [ⲭ]
04:40:25 <kmc> COPTIC CAPITAL LETTER KHI
04:40:30 <Bike> oh, right, their alphabet is probably based on greek
04:40:46 <quintopia> does anyone have an ebook copy of feynman lectures on physics
04:40:55 <shachaf> I guess that one's better.
04:41:08 <shachaf> 2C96 COPTIC CAPITAL LETTER LAULA [Ⲗ]
04:41:23 <shachaf> 2C90 COPTIC CAPITAL LETTER THETHE [Ⲑ]
04:41:25 <shachaf> 2C8E COPTIC CAPITAL LETTER HATE [Ⲏ]
04:41:39 <hagb4rd> quintopia: http://physicsebooklibrary.blogspot.de/2011/08/feynman-lectures-on-physics-complete.html
04:41:43 <monqy> coptic alphabet: adorable???????
04:41:51 <kmc> they have Ⳁ
04:41:52 <Bike> Ⲱ . that's pretty cool
04:41:59 <Bike> also it's called Oou
04:42:11 <shachaf> monqy: did you know lens has "an actual data structure" in it now
04:42:31 <monqy> shachaf: :-0!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04:42:47 <shachaf> (actually it has two?????)
04:42:48 <hagb4rd> quintopia: sorry.. i thought you can download it for free there :/
04:43:11 <shachaf> 2C0A GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER INITIAL IZHE [Ⰺ]
04:43:21 <shachaf> 2C06 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER ZHIVETE [Ⰶ]
04:43:26 <shachaf> 2C0F GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER MYSLITE [Ⰿ]
04:43:32 <shachaf> 2C16 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER UKU [Ⱆ]
04:44:09 <shachaf> 2C29 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER IOTATED BIG YUS [Ⱙ]
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04:44:39 <Jafet> I like how all the physics ebook downloaders are indian students
04:44:39 <quintopia> hagb4rd: oh it gives a 4shared link
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04:45:04 <Bike> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2c29/glagolitic_capital_letter_iotated_big_yus.png fileformat.info has failed me.
04:45:37 <kmc> that's the writing system they used
04:45:40 <kmc> four hex digits in a box
04:46:20 <Bike> i thought we already decided that's what japanophiles thought japanese was
04:46:36 <shachaf> http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/page.php?item_id=character_detail&uid=63adeh5ch3
04:46:41 <shachaf> http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/render_graphic.php?type=usv&point_size=96&metrics=1&block_start=2C00&block_end=2C7F
04:46:47 <Bike> can we conclude that the ancient russians spoke japanese
04:47:02 <kmc> that's quite a letter
04:48:02 <Fiora> that is a really confused concept of what kanji is
04:48:09 <Jafet> "Blog posts for this character"
04:49:00 <shachaf> http://scriptsource.org/cms/scripts/render_graphic.php?type=usv&point_size=96&metrics=1&block_start=2200&block_end=2400
04:49:30 <Bike> http://imgur.com/cLWxC now in image form
04:50:17 <GreyKnight> question, does unicode have the Yellow Sign
04:50:33 <Bike> because we don't know what it looks like.
04:50:37 <kmc> what is it
04:50:49 <kmc> unicode has STRAIGHTNESS but not GAYNESS?
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04:51:02 <hagb4rd> quintopia: kool..it's not even broken :)
04:51:05 <GreyKnight> we should at least reserve a codepoint for it, let's think ahead
04:51:19 <Bike> it would probably go in a private use area.
04:51:47 <kmc> well there is http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/26a3/index.htm and http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2640/index.htm
04:52:09 <Jafet> kmc: www.charbase.com/1f46c-unicode-two-men-holding-hands
04:52:29 <Bike> is that... a 3d render?
04:53:23 <kmc> the unicode committee should know that gender isn't binary, it's a complicated system of combining characters and normalization forms
04:53:35 <Bike> as far as i can tell everything above 10000 is kind of nutty
04:53:37 <GreyKnight> what's next, U+234FB ANIMATED RICKROLL?
04:53:59 <kmc> all you have to do is convince a japanese mobile phone company to add it to their proprietary encodings
04:54:26 <kmc> then apple and facebook will campaign to add it to unicode so they don't fall behind in the lucrative japanese people sending cat faces to each other market
04:55:14 <Bike> in three hundred years the linguists look back, see that 10000 to 20000 is all pictures of cacts, wonder wtf happened
04:55:30 <kmc> based on http://www.charbase.com/2603-unicode-snowman i am guessing that charbase.com is stealing the OS X fonts
04:55:40 <kmc> which do include fancy colorful icons for emoji
04:55:55 <kmc> http://zachholman.com/posts/abusing-emoji/
04:56:02 <Bike> «Sometimes, the terms “astral plane” and “astral characters” are used informally to refer to the planes above the Basic Multilingual Plane (planes 1–16) and their characters.[5]»
04:56:41 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_(Unicode)#Supplementary_Multilingual_Plane wow, that's actually some pretty cool stuff.
04:56:56 <Bike> aha, and there's deseret!
04:57:03 <GreyKnight> also "astral" because you need to be high as a kite to appreciate it fully
04:57:23 <kmc> level 20 supplemental multilingual plane elemental
04:58:44 <kmc> it has Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols aka "14 fucking copies of the latin alphabet because fuck mathematicians"
05:00:20 * GreyKnight casts /summon ancient greek musical notation/
05:00:22 <Bike> «Plane 3 is tentatively named the Tertiary Ideographic Plane, but as of version 6.1 there are no characters assigned to it. It is reserved for Oracle Bone script, Bronze Script, Small Seal Script, additional CJK unified ideographs, and other historic ideographic scripts» seriously
05:00:41 <Bike> GreyKnight: what's that look like? i don't thnk i actually found any pictures of the delphic hymns
05:01:59 <kmc> "Oddly enough, if you drag emoji into the password box, a single emoji shows up as two characters" UTF-16?
05:03:17 <Bike> «The ConScript Unicode Registry suggests it be used for the Klingon glyph "KLINGON MUMMIFICATION GLYPH".»
05:03:51 <GreyKnight> Bike: it looks like this http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D200.pdf
05:03:55 <Bike> "Medieval Unicode Font Initiative"
05:04:35 <Bike> GreyKnight: lol, they just give up and number 'em.
05:07:52 <GreyKnight> Hieroglyphs are the same way, they are labelled with the Gardiner number
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05:16:33 <Bike> i'm kind of surprised they had specialized notation though. or that we know any of it.
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05:18:00 <GreyKnight> we have specialised musical notation *today*, why not the ancient Greeks?
05:18:42 <Bike> because the chinese and sumerians didn't.
05:19:11 <Bike> and because greek music wasn't polyphonic (probably) and they didn't have complicated scales. I think.
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05:25:41 <GreyKnight> well I guess the Chinese and Sumerians were slow starters!
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05:56:49 <kmc> too busy inventing gunpowder and malware respectively
05:57:35 <Bike> is that a snow crash joke or something more interesting
05:57:43 <kmc> snow crash joke, sorry
06:02:05 <kmc> it's pretty good
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06:08:28 <zzo38> Are you going to do something about the [[International transportation]] article on esolang wiki? (1) It is only one sentence. (2) It is in the main namespace. (3) It is not related to esolang (or anything else, really). (4) The user made no other edits. I suggest either deleting or moving to [[User:Asmun/Sandbox]] without a redirect.
06:14:08 <GreyKnight> elliott thinks it is funny and refuses to delete it
06:16:24 <kmc> it's an esolang with one command
06:17:10 <zzo38> I also am unsure to delete it, but I think it should at least be moved; it is why I suggested that.
06:19:33 <kmc> TIL that burned whole rye grains smell the same as burned popcorn
06:21:24 <zzo38> Move it to [[User:Asmun/International_transportation]] if you don't like [[User:Asmun/Sandbox]]
06:21:56 <shachaf> zzo38: But what if I want to learn more about international transportation?
06:22:25 <kmc> no you can only learn about international shipping
06:22:38 <zzo38> shachaf: Then you should look on Wikipedia; the one sentence there explains nothing about it and its external link doesn't explain either.
06:23:29 <zzo38> Anyways I think it belongs in the User: namespace, not the main namespace, so if you agree, that is why I suggested [[User:Asmun/International_transportation]]. If you disagree, that is OK too but at least I suggest this so we can see who agree/disagree with me.
06:27:34 <GreyKnight> It doesn't *belong* anywhere because it's spam. But it's funny spam because they failed to insert a link to their website.
06:28:16 <GreyKnight> Right now it is staying because elliott finds it amusing, after he gets bored with it I guess it will get deleted?
06:31:56 <zzo38> Well, yes, it is spam too
06:32:14 <zzo38> But if it should go anywhere, it should go in the User: namespace. Otherwise, it should be deleted.
06:33:12 <GreyKnight> If any admin action is taken on it it should be to delete, moving it to User: makes no sense
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06:33:38 <zzo38> Well, yes, but it makes more sense than leaving it how it is, at least!
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06:35:35 <GreyKnight> yes, if you're moderating it anyway why not just delete it? "Move to User" is a halfway compromise for actual articles, for funny spam the concept does not apply
06:35:58 <GreyKnight> partly because the "user" is a nonentity
06:36:42 <kmc> http://lookatthatfuckingcuttlefish.wordpress.com/
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06:37:21 <zzo38> However you said they don't want to delete it because is funny. If you *do* want to delete it, then of course you will.
06:39:14 <GreyKnight> well not me personally since I can't delete :-P
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10:10:31 <Taneb> Huh. someone in the wiki is trying to make a documentary about esolangs
10:13:41 <fizzie> A documentary about #esoteric sounds a far more appealing topic.
10:14:09 <fizzie> Or maybe a regular movie.
10:14:19 <fizzie> I don't know who'd they get to star as elliott, though.
10:15:10 <Taneb> I imagine Elijah Wood as elliott
10:15:30 <fizzie> My wife made the exact same suggestion before you said that.
10:15:44 <fizzie> Clearly that is the logical choice.
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10:18:31 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm your wife.
10:18:40 <Taneb> Only logical conclusion
10:21:20 <fizzie> I find that hard to believe.
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13:08:43 <nooodl> fizzie: who would play zzo38
13:09:58 <shachaf> fizzie: Why would elliott be the star?
13:10:02 <shachaf> I think that would be monqy.
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13:16:17 <GreyKnight> Also starring fungot as the comic relief!
13:16:18 <fungot> GreyKnight: more of a statement implies that statement would prove that. though we did experiment by photographing durbu's and lindi's chess game. 10k is plenty of ways to try to decode it
13:17:01 <GreyKnight> fizzie: for some reason I had assumed you were female?
13:17:24 <GreyKnight> (I suppose that doesn't actually rule out you having a wife, although it is significantly less likely that way)
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13:20:24 <nooodl> what would the plot be
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13:21:08 <nooodl> imo it should be like a cheesy sci-fi-action movie, somehow involving esolangs...
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13:56:13 <fizzie> GreyKnight: I'm not female, but I've heard "fizzie" is quite a feminine nick.
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14:02:23 <GreyKnight> also you are like a mother figure to little fungot :-3
14:02:24 <fungot> GreyKnight: i need to support locales in a modern os shouldn't even let a user know about cursor?'
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14:08:57 <fizzie> fungot: Who's your mommy?
14:08:59 <fungot> fizzie: as in i have read the spec can be burst upon by a good environment in hands of a competent programmer. "
14:09:34 <fungot> shachaf: preferably with its legs talked off.
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14:16:48 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i like the idea that if you name your country a Soviet Republic you automatically get the right to call up Lenin on the telephone and complain about bathroom pranks
14:16:56 <HackEgo> 887) <kmc> i like the idea that if you name your country a Soviet Republic you automatically get the right to call up Lenin on the telephone and complain about bathroom pranks
14:21:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ \ pasterandom() { \ if [ "$1" -gt 150 ]; then \ echo "No." \ exit \ fi \ for i in $(seq "$1"); do \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ done | paste \ } \ \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \
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14:23:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13720
14:23:41 <oerjan> `run diff bin/pastelog bin/pastelogs
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14:24:02 <oerjan> `run diff bin/pastelog bin/pastelogs
14:25:17 <oerjan> why is there a multiline message in there.
14:25:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/pastelog
14:28:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29274
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14:31:10 <fungot> GreyKnight: i don't care, it's a tarnished chain of my nick. i think
14:31:13 <GreyKnight> If you know the right codeword you can also call up the U.S.A. president on the telephone and *make* bathroom pranks: http://www.webcrunchers.com/stories/toilet.html
14:31:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:32:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13421
14:33:06 <shachaf> [too many lines; stopping]
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14:43:17 <GreyKnight> http://dx.com/p/gold-plated-digital-audio-optical-fiber-toslink-cable-black-150cm-135805?item=35 I don't understand
14:45:38 <GreyKnight> [User:Phantom_Hoover] Voulez-vous un brick large in tu brain?
14:46:27 <oerjan> GreyKnight: tell him not to switch between vous and tu like that
14:47:39 <GreyKnight> I hoped that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ragaraja would actually have 1000 operations as claimed, but looks like he chickened out
14:47:49 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Wow, that's a cheap cable. I mean, compare it for a mid-range HDMI cable like http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-3m-Carbon-HDMI-Cable/dp/B0038LYHDE/ref=sr_1_2
14:49:11 <GreyKnight> I wouldn't pay that much for a *device* to plug the cable *into*
14:50:21 <fizzie> You can pay $13000 for a speaker cable, but at least that's an analog thing.
14:50:43 <fizzie> Still, a 15-metre HDMI cable for $2099.95? http://www.amazon.com/World-Silver-Starlight-Cable-Meters/dp/B002YFTMEO/ref=sr_1_8
14:51:22 <fizzie> (Ref. for the earlier: http://www.amazon.com/WireWorld-Platinum-Eclipse-Standard-Speaker/dp/B008K473NA/ref=sr_1_1 $13199.95.)
14:51:29 <GreyKnight> none of this explains why we're gold-plating an optical cable. Maybe just for the bling value, if cables sell for this kind of money
14:52:00 <fizzie> Obviously it's gold-plated to "provide clear, full and richly detailed sound".
14:52:51 <GreyKnight> "Platinum Eclipse is the cable for perfectionists with elite reference standard audio systems." Boke and lies
14:53:15 <GreyKnight> it's for people who use £50 notes as kindling to start their fire
14:53:39 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Here's a $1088.75 optical cable for you: http://www.amazon.com/Audioquest-Diamond-Fiber-Digital-Toslink/dp/B0073TB78A/ref=sr_1_42
14:53:43 <GreyKnight> Is there a way I can find out everyone who's bought one of these, so I can go visit them and smack them in the head
14:54:11 <fizzie> It's not gold-plated though. :/
14:54:19 <fizzie> I suppose that would be too much to ask for a thousand-dollar cable.
14:55:05 <GreyKnight> Is this actual diamond fiber? If not why not
14:56:32 <fizzie> It has "280 narrow aperture quartz (fused-silica) fibers", I think.
14:57:16 <oerjan> confusing carbon and silicon? must be aliens.
14:57:41 <fizzie> "Diamond" (as far as I can tell) just refers to the color.
14:57:59 <fizzie> It's available in "Forst", "Cinnamon", "Vodka" and "Diamond" colors.
14:58:24 <fizzie> (Also known as "green", "red", "blue" and "grey" in the common speech of lesser men.)
15:00:03 <fizzie> Or Ibrîniðilpathânezel for those who know Valarin.
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15:01:11 <greyooze> guise i have too much money ware can i buy a platinum-plated optikal cable
15:02:06 <fizzie> Go to Amazon.com and then sort by "Price: High to Low", that's how you find the best deals.
15:02:25 <fizzie> (Also the green one was "Forest", not "Forst".)
15:02:43 <greyooze> I am also disappointed that these aren't made of actual diamond: http://www.amazon.com/Waterfall-Audio-Niagara-Standing-Loudspeakers/dp/B002BSH27I/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_2
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15:03:40 <hagb4rd> how do i need to configure irc chanserv to not !op the channel owner on join. or if that|s not possible: can i completely hide the status of any user in the channel..like it is here?
15:03:48 <GreyKnight> fizzie: this has actually been a kind of horrifying experience
15:04:13 <fizzie> GreyKnight: Don't you mean "uplifting"? You got to see a glimpse of how better people live.
15:04:29 <fizzie> Perhaps one day you could own $54000 "diamond-glass" speakers too.
15:05:05 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd: +O is the "auto-op" flag: /msg ChanServ HELP FLAGS
15:06:21 <hagb4rd> GreyKnight: hm. /msg ChanServ HELP FLAGS seems not to work on that network :(
15:08:38 <GreyKnight> fizzie: some of these listings seem like jokes/errors
15:08:41 <GreyKnight> e.g. http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-SDSDQY-008G-A11A-MicroSD-Capacity-microSDHC/dp/B007YW3DOW/ref=sr_1_1?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1356534370&sr=1-1
15:09:12 <hagb4rd> all i seem to have is the access list + types (like "autodeop") + some flags like "secureops".. tried them all and it doesn't work.. but thx, maybe it's not possible on that network..
15:13:26 <GreyKnight> from ChanServ help: "+b - Enables automatic kickban." <-- at first I misread this as "enables automatic kitchen"
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16:00:42 <nortti> https://gist.github.com/665971
16:03:01 <elliott> 10:14:19 <fizzie> I don't know who'd they get to star as elliott, though.
16:03:01 <elliott> 10:15:10 <Taneb> I imagine Elijah Wood as elliott
16:03:01 <elliott> 10:15:30 <fizzie> My wife made the exact same suggestion before you said that.
16:03:01 <elliott> 10:15:44 <fizzie> Clearly that is the logical choice.
16:03:01 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:03:30 <elliott> @tell ais523 HELP!!!! (Deletion log); 10:57 . . Keymaker (Talk | contribs | block) deleted page International transportation (content was: "[http://www.example.com click here] to learn more about international shipping" (and the only contributor was "Asmun"))
16:03:41 <elliott> @tell ais523 HELP!!!! (Deletion log); 10:57 . . Keymaker (Talk | contribs | block) deleted page International transportation (content was: "[http://www.example.com click here] to learn more about international shipping" (and the only contributor was "Asmun"))
16:03:49 <elliott> @tell ais523 we should have protected it or something
16:04:01 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I think elliott is panicking
16:04:14 <elliott> GreyKnight: btw ais523 found it amusing too
16:04:15 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience/comments/15axxn/what_would_happen_if_i_told_an_inside_joke/
16:04:20 <olsner> elliott: why do you need help?
16:04:26 <nortti> "if you are into pain, get the autotools book.. Read it awhile, throw it in a box and start sacrificing to Cthulu."
16:04:29 <elliott> so that's 2/3 of the active administrators :P
16:04:37 <elliott> olsner: the perfect page got deleted
16:04:41 <olsner> also, isn't oerjan the one you ask for help with the wiki?
16:05:11 <oerjan> only when he gets confused about which universe he is in
16:06:07 <HackEgo> 22) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! \ 373) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET
16:06:30 <HackEgo> 13) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 18) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 19) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 20) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerj
16:07:18 <oerjan> whatever happened to bsmntbombdood
16:07:34 <oerjan> maybe he tried that and croaked
16:07:36 <elliott> he got responsibilities or sth
16:07:45 <elliott> this documentary looks like somethin' indeed
16:09:35 <oerjan> i think the mussolini one may have been euthanized
16:10:05 <oerjan> `run quote alterna | tail
16:10:07 <HackEgo> 13) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 18) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 19) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 20) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerj
16:10:31 <oerjan> `run quote alterna | fmt -w 400 | tail -1
16:10:33 <HackEgo> ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET
16:10:42 <Jafet> `run quote alterna | tac
16:10:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:10:44 <HackEgo> 373) <elliott> oerjan: can you delete that and the meta turing completeness page <elliott> thanks <oerjan> elliott: IN UNIVERSO ALTERNATIVO, OERJAN PAGINAS DELET \ 22) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler!
16:11:11 <elliott> doesn't seem to have been deleted grepping the hg logs
16:11:21 <HackEgo> 23) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce! \ 94) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^
16:11:45 <oerjan> elliott: oh that didn't use alterna*
16:11:56 <HackEgo> 94) <soupdragon> if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect <soupdragon> ^ I learned that trick from atheists
16:13:23 <HackEgo> 21) <ehird> so i can only conclude that it is flawed, or the world is utterly bonkers
16:13:53 <HackEgo> 123) <ivancastillo75> Oh I get it you guys just use this space to do nothing ?
16:14:48 <oerjan> `run quote univers | grep -v alterna
16:14:49 <HackEgo> 13) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 18) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 22) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen,
16:15:02 <oerjan> `run quote univers | grep -f -v alterna
16:15:03 <HackEgo> grep: -v: No such file or directory
16:15:09 <oerjan> `run quote univers | grep -i -v alterna
16:15:11 <HackEgo> 23) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce! \ 24) PA ET ANNET UNIVERSET DER DE ENESTE PERSONEN OERJAN: <oerjan> sa jeg kan bare konkludere med at det er feil, eller er verden helt bonkers \ 94) <soupdragon> if
16:15:23 <oerjan> `run quote univers | grep -i -v alterna | tac
16:15:25 <HackEgo> 717) <elliott> oops I accidentally deleted the universe <olsner> looks weird when you put a verb after accidentally like that \ 643) <oklopol> the point of a university is research and training new researchers. the point of the world is to enable this. \ 598) <yrlnry> I personally use while ("Cogito, ergo sum") { ... } because since that is a prio
16:16:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.26859
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16:17:33 <oerjan> is that picture on /r/shittyaskscience genuine
16:17:45 <olsner> it still looks weird with a verb after accidentally ... when I read sentences like that I feel like ignoring the verb because it's ungrammatical
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16:18:22 <Jafet> You accidentally assimilated the meme
16:18:26 <olsner> or maybe ignoring the extraneous verb because accidentally is already a verb?
16:18:55 <olsner> *accidentally the meme
16:19:16 <oerjan> i had already accidentallied the meme
16:19:33 <Jafet> We must accidentally all verbs
16:25:18 <olsner> well, this is what happens when you accidentally an adverb
16:25:20 <Jafet> Then we shall ccientally.
16:26:30 <oerjan> i sense a great deal of redundancy in some of those subreddit names http://www.reddit.com/r/shittysuboftheweek
16:26:30 <fizzie> GreyKnight: I think many of the "ridiculous price" listings are indeed mistakes (or algorithmic pricing gone wrong; that happens, too; there's some amusing articles on it) but the ludicrously expensive cables are sadly far too real.
16:27:16 <GreyKnight> The sentence acquires an accidentally, the accidentally acquires a verb, the verb becomes a warning
16:30:11 <fizzie> "Although I had to liquidate the assets of an entire third world nation in order to afford these SDHC cards, they hold a lot of pictures of my dogs." (A customer review for a 4GB SDHC card costing $100M.)
16:32:29 <GreyKnight> I don't think I have any third world nations left
16:34:16 <fizzie> I did saw something I could've bought in Amazon for $0.01 recently. (List price $24.99, "you save $24.98 (100%)".)
16:34:23 <fizzie> But the shipping would've been $4.99.
16:39:27 <HackEgo> 862) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion
16:42:36 <GreyKnight> what's a HackEgo invocation to search logs for a particular string?
16:44:11 <fizzie> There are quite a few.
16:44:36 <HackEgo> bin/anonlog \ bin/etymology \ bin/log \ bin/logurl \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastlog \ bin/randomanonlog \ bin/searchlog
16:45:07 <fizzie> 'pastlog' is "on-channel, logs not including today"; 'pastelog' is an URL-pasting version.
16:45:37 <fizzie> Either 'log' or 'searchlog' is maybe 'pastlog' except without the not-today feature.
16:46:09 <HackEgo> \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Alert!: Unable to connect to remote host. \ \ lynx: Can't access startfile http://etymonline.com/?search=%70%61%72%74%69%63%75%6c%61%72
16:46:26 <fizzie> (I was hoping for a joke.)
16:47:32 <oerjan> `run diff bin/log bin/searchlog
16:47:34 <HackEgo> Binary files bin/log and bin/searchlog differ
16:47:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18493
16:47:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi
16:48:21 <HackEgo> bin/searchlog: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, not stripped
16:48:38 <HackEgo> 2008-09-07.txt:09:47:39: <tusho> what's the dsss command to tangoify again
16:49:30 <HackEgo> 2011-02-19.txt:05:17:25: <Gregor> I always just say "Yeah, what?" gruffly.
16:50:31 <GreyKnight> okay I guess HackEgo can't find the source of quote 316
16:50:57 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe searchlog's the OPTOMIZED version of log.
16:51:14 -!- monqy has joined.
16:51:34 <HackEgo> 316) <elliott> Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
16:51:40 <elliott> the explanation is i dont remember
16:51:59 <oerjan> fizzie: sounds plausible
16:52:32 <fizzie> oerjan: It's written in TERSE, you know.
16:52:39 <oerjan> `pastelogs Top universities now employ
16:52:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12580
16:53:26 <oerjan> huh it's also in lambdabot
16:54:23 <fizzie> oerjan: http://sprunge.us/dXiR
16:54:27 <GreyKnight> maybe the bots made it up themselves and are just using elliott as a cover
16:55:53 <oerjan> @quote elliott universities
16:55:53 <lambdabot> elliott says: Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
16:56:13 <fizzie> It's from a discussion in 2011-05-07, FWIW.
16:56:49 <elliott> did I say it in /msg or something
16:57:06 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/LDhA (sorry for the log format)
16:57:51 <elliott> my log format has colour codes in it :(
16:58:03 <elliott> because the alternative is that irssi doesn't log the colour codes in people's actual messages
16:59:19 <oerjan> ah right the day is missing glogbot logs until 19:55
17:00:13 <oerjan> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/11.05.07 has it
17:00:30 <GreyKnight> <ais523> I mean, us in #esoteric understand that you mean hi as a threat
17:02:14 <GreyKnight> from http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-05-07.txt
17:03:06 <monqy> also fsvo monqys-crawl!!!!
17:03:16 <shachaf> i want to play monqys-crawl
17:03:28 <monqy> shachaf. it's not ready for the prime time.
17:04:01 <shachaf> monqy: i don't need prime time i just want to play!!!!!!!!
17:04:51 <monqy> it's unplayable sorry
17:05:45 <shachaf> i want to read the code then
17:06:07 <monqy> it's just crawl code
17:06:29 <monqy> check out the "4.1.2 ancient" branch and you'll get an idea
17:06:38 <monqy> you can play that too! it's 100% playable
17:06:51 <shachaf> monqy: should i learn crawl
17:06:53 <monqy> but it's just crawl no monqys in there
17:07:10 <monqy> crawl may or may not help you with monqys-crawl
17:07:38 <shachaf> everything does lots of damage, take 1
17:07:42 <shachaf> add segfaults and also smaller levels
17:07:44 <shachaf> goodbye files with mostly/all big vaults
17:08:00 <monqy> thats not monqys-crawl
17:08:09 <shachaf> it says monqys-crawl.........
17:08:14 <monqy> thats old monqys-crawl
17:08:21 <monqy> an experiment in making crawl dumb
17:08:37 <monqy> it made crawl dumb
17:08:41 <GreyKnight> does it say "hi" when you start up a new game
17:08:49 -!- elliott has left.
17:09:18 <olsner> when (and why) did we invent all this hoopla about "hi"?
17:14:24 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
17:15:13 <olsner> monqy: what are your thoughts on socks?
17:15:50 <monqy> good for shoes, sliding, not much else
17:16:05 <monqy> good for faux pas????????that sandals thing
17:16:21 <olsner> good for shoes and puppets? how about for people?
17:16:46 <monqy> shoes and puppets are good for people. there's a transitivity going on here.
17:16:48 <olsner> a faux pas is what you do when you make a fool out of yourself
17:16:58 * oerjan is currently wearing socks in his sandals. two pairs, the outer one is wool.
17:17:04 <olsner> did you mean flip flops?
17:18:46 <monqy> not entirely sure. I've only heard of this phenomenon, never witnessed it
17:19:01 <olsner> hmm, or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Foppatoffel ? faux pas sounds pretty similar actually (but the aux is too long)
17:21:39 -!- elliott has joined.
17:23:13 <olsner> someone could make a browser called sandals and refuse to ever add socks support to it
17:31:30 <oerjan> fungot: i know you use SOCK, do you use sandals?
17:31:31 <fungot> oerjan: the search starts because we are more concerned about getting accepted?)
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17:33:06 <oerjan> hm what is the precise distinction between sandals and flip flops
17:33:28 <fizzie> oerjan: The latter is a bistable multivibrator.
17:34:09 <oerjan> ok band between the toes, not flip flops i'm wearing then
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17:38:33 <oerjan> yuck my coke bottle was gooey on the outside
17:40:19 <fizzie> "They may also be held to the foot with a single strap over the front --" see, it doesn't have to use in-toe signaling.
17:40:26 <fizzie> I mean, a between-toe band.
17:40:44 <oerjan> fizzie: um that was the distinction of flip-flops, afaict
17:41:31 <fizzie> I would have thought it's more about not having more than the strap in front, no matter whether it has that between-toes bit or not.
17:41:49 <fizzie> "[Flip-flops] consist of a flat sole held loosely on the foot by a Y-shaped strap that passes between the first and second toes and around either side of the foot. They may also be held to the foot with a single strap over the front of the foot rather than a thong."
17:41:56 <fizzie> That's what Wikipedia says.
17:43:01 <fizzie> I mean, the sandals still flip-flop if there's a single front-strap that goes over the whole foot, so they ought to be flip-flops.
17:43:57 <fizzie> "6. A plastic or rubber sandal consisting of a flat sole and straps. Also attrib." (OED) well that's not very distinctive.
17:45:06 <fizzie> "2. flip-flop, thong -- (a backless sandal held to the foot by a thong between the big toe and the second toe)" I see wordnet is a strict orthodox between-toe flip-floppist.
17:49:34 <kmc> fungot: flip flopper!
17:49:34 <fungot> kmc: i've lost what we're arguing about
17:49:49 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:49:53 <fungot> oerjan: eval ( 1 2 3 4 5))) x
17:49:54 <fungot> shachaf: and cooperation against the game does not preclude " adrenaline" ( or " fnord" types which i believe to be 12 thing?
17:50:56 <GreyKnight> fungot: please design esoteric: the boardgame
17:50:57 <fungot> GreyKnight: and 1.0a1 is ancient, decrepit lisps. what you will probably need to traverse the cartesian product one every one copies. should probably still complain.
17:51:41 <oerjan> fizzie: i see it doesn't handle space after special tokens, like (
17:52:58 <oerjan> ancient, decrepit lisps, i take it this is a horror game then.
17:53:52 <oerjan> you can evade those, though; malbolge is much harder.
17:55:15 <GreyKnight> there is only one malbolge on the board at any one time
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17:55:46 <GreyKnight> the BF derivatives are hard to avoid because they are so numerous, but they're pretty weak individually
17:59:01 <GreyKnight> fungot: we need more design fuel please
17:59:02 <fungot> GreyKnight: s/ a name/ value list or a sigle atom or procedure)'.
17:59:11 <olsner> if you draw the "Brick brain" card, the whole board fills with BF derivatives
17:59:37 <oerjan> i'd rather think that would remove them
17:59:42 <olsner> or maybe every time you cast a BF derivative, you have to roll for brick brain
18:09:10 <olsner> arguably, a bricked brain wouldn't significantly affect someone's ability to create bf derivatives
18:14:32 <fizzie> oerjan: It does have some trouble with tokens that are not supposed to be followed by a space, yes.
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18:24:10 -!- azaq23 has joined.
18:34:53 <fizzie> play.google.com gives me prices in SEK. :/
18:42:06 <fizzie> And suspiciously many Sweden-specific things in the top charts, like "SVT Play". There seems to be only a language select-o-tron, not a location select-o-tron.
18:42:39 <olsner> they know where you are better than you do, apparently
18:42:42 -!- GreyKnight has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:42:51 <fizzie> I don't think I want to be in Sweden. :/
18:42:51 <olsner> maybe you accidentally to sweden?
18:43:07 <oerjan> yeah everyone know finland is swedish by ancient heritage
18:43:11 <fizzie> I was in Sweden just the other day, though, perhaps it's just laggy.
18:43:33 <oerjan> fizzie: clear some cookies?
18:43:35 <fizzie> I even tried adding a place-I-live-in in my Google account profile, but it didn't help.
18:44:14 <oerjan> c00kiemon5ter: WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS
18:44:16 -!- GreyKnight has joined.
18:45:03 <fizzie> I'm thinking it's probably because of the he.net IPv6 tunnel, which has its endpoint in Stockholm. But surely there should be some way of overriding the IP geolocation, it's not like those are 100% accurate.
18:49:01 <fizzie> "If you want to manually change your currency and/or country:
18:49:02 <fizzie> Add a new payment method with a billing address in the "new" country that matches the currency you'd like to use."
18:49:05 <fizzie> Maybe that would help.
18:49:17 <fizzie> Though I don't really want to add a payment method.
18:50:51 -!- hagb4rd has changed nick to hagb4rd_.
18:50:52 <hagb4rd_> http://theoatmeal.com/blog/fix_computer
18:51:28 <hagb4rd_> though i really don't know y to learn java i swear i'll wear my lucky socks this time
18:51:29 <elliott> can we not link to unfunny SEO-spammy bullshit like the oatmeal
18:51:43 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
18:52:19 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd_: objection, growing a beard is a prerequisite for installing Linux in the first place
18:55:16 <hagb4rd_> elliott: i don't know this place.. no problem for me so
18:55:23 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:56:50 <oerjan> silly executive officer
19:01:49 -!- Bike has joined.
19:06:35 <kmc> http://www.progressiveboink.com/2012/12/4/3727746/the-oatmeal-rape-joke
19:08:45 <elliott> the oatmeal guy has actually given talks at, like, SEO conferences about how the literal entire aim of the comic is to get pageviews from reddit and that he doesn't even care a single bit about anything he writes about
19:09:24 <kmc> it's a little bit weird that we judge content creators by motivation rather than what they create
19:09:51 <elliott> I judge the guy for having completely slimy motivation
19:09:52 <hagb4rd_> aw..motivation is goin a long way
19:09:55 <elliott> and therefore won't read his comic
19:10:44 <monqy> well his comic is bad too so
19:11:00 <Bike> "You can go back to reading The Family Circus now." for god's sake
19:11:12 <elliott> monqy: yes that's the nice advantage, I don't even miss out on anything
19:13:19 <hagb4rd_> for some reason you know this guy and even parts of his biography and work..i'm sure you have your reasons to boycott his works elliott.. and truly it wasn't that funny at all
19:14:00 <elliott> i am secretly the author of the oatmeal perpetrating an immense act of reverse psychology
19:14:08 <Sgeo> I think he does have a point though. People make jokes about all sorts of horrible things, is making a joke about this one horrible thing worse than those other horrible things?
19:15:16 -!- elliott has left ("preemptive").
19:15:16 <kmc> yes because of pervasive sexism in the communities that read theoatmeal
19:15:21 <kmc> it's not even a joke about rape
19:15:33 <kmc> it's a joke about something else, which uses rape as a lighthearted fun-times analogy
19:16:03 <GreyKnight> while I so far agree with the progressiveboink article's author, I strongly associate white guys who make heavy use of the word "privilege" with a variant of Nice Guy Syndrome so bleh
19:16:09 <kmc> i'm not saying it would be impossible to make a legitimately worthwhile joke about rape
19:16:22 <kmc> but this idea that you can just tack "RAPE!! LOLOLOLOL" onto any unfunny shit and make it funny is really bad
19:16:29 <Sgeo> kmc, good point
19:16:46 <Bike> maybe the analogy to other horrible things would be like "i machete the shit out of my tutsi f5 key" or... something less forced
19:16:48 <hagb4rd_> it is not funny. but it's not the same as raping
19:16:59 <kmc> GreyKnight: so, in your mind is there any way for a white guy to care about social justice
19:17:04 <kmc> or are we automatically poseurs
19:17:16 <kmc> i think this kind of attitude is a litiiitle bit counterproductive
19:17:31 <kmc> if you have privilege you should acknowledge that you have privilege and use it for good not evil
19:17:47 <Sgeo> Bike, there may be less of a reaction to that, largely because there are likely to be fewer readers directly affected by that event
19:18:47 <Fiora> pretty much you just have to realize that "privilege" means "I don't have to deal with X, while other people who don't have that privilege do, and I should be careful not to assume that everyone is like me in that regard", and that it's not a thing that makes you a bad person
19:19:53 <Bike> Sgeo: shittiness isn't just a function of who complains about you, of course
19:20:02 <kmc> the daniel tosh thing was similar... people talked about it as if he made some clever edgy joke about rape that society just wasn't ready for
19:20:13 <kmc> actually there was a woman heckling him and he just said wouldn't it be great if she got raped
19:20:26 <hagb4rd_> <Bike>maybe the analogy to other horrible things would be like "i machete the shit out of my tutsi f5 key" or... something less forced <-- the tragedy here is not a scene of rape.. but problems woith the internet dude.. words are walking sticks.. and if you feel guilty for this in some way you can go and be the saviour for the girl next door.. i don't want to support this shit, just don't like this touch of overdriven and misplaced mor
19:20:30 <Bike> do people actually like tosh? from what i've seen he just runs Stupid Youtube Videos: The Show
19:20:45 <kmc> dunno, apparently at least one person went to his show
19:20:53 <Fiora> kmc: it's like how white dudes really, really, REALLY want to be able to say the n-word
19:21:02 <Fiora> and the fact that they can't is ~oppressino~
19:21:09 <kmc> so yeah i think the conversation about "can rape jokes ever be funny" is really missing the point
19:21:15 <Bike> «Despite its popularity among males, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is one of the most subtly misandric show I have seen» speaking of which
19:21:17 <GreyKnight> it's a specific example, I guess, of how people can use particular bits of vocabulary to show how knowledgeable they are about something without actually needing to hold the relevant principles. "Privilege" as jargon is just one such vocabulary term.
19:21:27 <Fiora> Bike: oh god no XD
19:21:42 <kmc> GreyKnight: okay, i can see that
19:21:48 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:21:48 <kmc> but do you think that's the case with this article
19:23:36 <Bike> i'm more concerned with assholes than with worrying about with people are just posing as academics, personally
19:24:54 <GreyKnight> I don't know, I haven't finished reading it. I was stream-of-consciousnessing my first impression into the channel because I'm tired and sick so I just do things :-)
19:25:04 <kmc> ok, that's fair
19:25:10 <kmc> you're sick? :/
19:25:18 <Bike> stop being sick right this minute sir
19:25:36 <GreyKnight> I got some virus before Christmas, then I got another one
19:25:46 <GreyKnight> spending Christmas day in bed is awesome fun :-|
19:25:50 -!- mekeor has joined.
19:25:58 <GreyKnight> that reminds me I didn't open my presents yet
19:26:22 <Bike> what, it's already boxing day, you should be eating bangers and mash out of boxes by now
19:26:48 <kmc> i thought you're supposed to box a kangaroo
19:26:54 <kmc> or is that only in australia
19:27:08 <GreyKnight> maybe I can eat bangers and mash out of a kangaroo and cut out the middleman
19:27:18 <kmc> and i thought they smelled bad on the outside!
19:29:40 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: I agree with the observation that people seem to raise much more of an outcry over rape jokes than murder jokes (has ctrlaltdelete had a rape fiasco yet? That would be a test of this hypothesis). I don't know why though.
19:30:24 <hagb4rd_> damn, i missed my train following this conversation engaging the popularity of one asshole spitting empty words at another who made his luck writing some kind of infantile jokes
19:30:25 <Sgeo> Rape is a thing that happens to people, but so is murder (although it's not the victims who would be upset at murder jokes, but their loved ones)
19:30:27 <Fiora> GreyKnight: in a random sample of an american audience, 1 in 12 people will have been raped
19:30:42 <Fiora> so, if you make a rape joke in front of an audience, ~8% of those people will have experienced the thing you're joking about
19:30:48 <Sgeo> Fiora, holy crap
19:30:49 <Fiora> they may have PTSD flashbacks
19:31:00 <Fiora> nobody in that audience has been murdered.
19:31:29 <Fiora> hence why rape jokes are bad -- when you make them, there's a good cahnce some people listening /have been raped/
19:31:45 <Fiora> and you're mocking them, making them feel awful, and contributing to society trivializing their experience
19:32:00 <Fiora> whereas nobody trivializes murder
19:32:14 <Fiora> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0hy07rRzS1qcfypgo1_500.jpg <-- good example
19:32:32 <Sgeo> Fiora, very good point (except for "nobody trivializes murder", not sure if that's true)
19:32:36 <GreyKnight> <Fiora> nobody in that audience has been murdered <-- hmm I guess that is an obvious point
19:32:58 <Fiora> if your friend is murdered, most people will probably not go around saying he was a slut and it was his fault for wearing the wrong clothes
19:33:12 <Sgeo> Fiora, I thought you meant as in jokes trivializing it
19:33:13 <Fiora> i.e. people don't generally victim-blame for murder
19:33:19 <Fiora> well, it contributes to the whole thing
19:33:26 <GreyKnight> sgeo: Fiora means actual murders I think
19:33:46 <hagb4rd_> what the fuck are you talking about..god please stop
19:34:02 <Fiora> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Rape_culture
19:34:04 <GreyKnight> (any CAD comic featuring P1 and P2 will demonstrate fictional trivialisation of murder)
19:34:23 <GreyKnight> hagb4rd_: elliott has more foresight than you :-U
19:34:27 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, ah... Can I go ahead and smack victim-blamers?
19:35:08 <Sgeo> Seriously, wasn't considering that ... actual people... blame the victims
19:35:09 <Bike> okay, but, that's CAD
19:35:09 <hagb4rd_> please no.. not here.. this is a holy place droogies no :L
19:35:12 <kmc> there are too many of them, you can't smack them all
19:35:46 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e60JlM6ZXHc here is the important thing about cad.
19:36:21 <GreyKnight> basically unrelated but the guy on the right of that tumblr photograph looks like he's wearing only a T-shirt
19:36:40 -!- elliott has joined.
19:36:45 * GreyKnight guesses this is going to be about B^Uckley before clicking
19:37:04 <Bike> who's on that shirt?
19:40:31 -!- hagb4rd_ has quit (Quit: death makes angels of us all, and gives us wings were we had shoulders, smooth as ravens claws).
19:45:30 <GreyKnight> fungot: please give further information on esoteric: the boardgame
19:45:31 <fungot> GreyKnight: that's a lot). i found the merely very old version of chatzilla
19:46:39 <GreyKnight> fungot, I don't know if IRC integration is a great feature for a boardgame
19:46:40 <fungot> GreyKnight: there's a minority of mit undergrads who don't like me
19:46:56 <Bike> poor fungot :(
19:46:57 <fungot> Bike: i could ask my dad to give me the rock bottom answer
19:48:51 <fizzie> fungot: Have you written the script of "#esoteric: The Movie" yet?
19:48:52 <fungot> fizzie: i don't really know what that does
19:49:51 <kmc> elliott: did you find the answer to my question
19:50:06 <elliott> did lambdabot even notify me of a message
19:50:10 <elliott> i had forgotten it until now
19:50:44 <elliott> i will try to remember to figure it out in-between wasting lots of time
19:51:57 <GreyKnight> so there is a movie, a documentary, and a boardgame in progress
19:52:34 <Deewiant> fungot: what about a hit musical
19:52:35 <fungot> Deewiant: in the music video theres this boy thats hot....
19:52:51 <kmc> sounds good to me
20:04:46 <zzo38> Do you think Christmas should be done by celebration on winter solstice instead?
20:05:31 <monqy> does this make it more or less convenient?&c
20:06:11 <fungot> shachaf: if you have an amount of 0?
20:06:19 <fungot> shachaf: x fnord"), without specifying a character at a time. too much time
20:06:32 <fungot> shachaf: i'd say the things that use it. you can choose not to attempt to retrieve the individual arguments from the direction the ip is
20:13:49 <GreyKnight> "by celebration" is a way of doing things and "on winter solstice" is a time, so I don't understand how these two aspects make a dichotomy
20:34:38 -!- mekeor has quit (Quit: g'neight).
21:02:58 <GreyKnight> I just nearly used "too" instead of "to" kill me now
21:04:50 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:05:55 <fizzie> GreyKnight: I think that's a little to harsh too suggest.
21:15:09 <oerjan> GreyKnight: but if we kill you now you'll just go to grammar/spelling nazi hell, where you will be _forced_ to use words wrong all the time...
21:16:46 <oerjan> like spelling no with an e
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21:52:35 <zzo38> I had idea of the chess variant where the number of different kind of pieces is exactly one googolplex, and the number of squares is also exactly one googolplex (this game is impossible to play within our universe, but may be possible to define).
21:53:48 <zzo38> A movement pattern is defined using a 10x10 grid of numbers 0 to 9, such that none are subsets (even trivial subsets) of others. A piece is defined by assigning one of ten modes to each possible movement pattern, such that there are no redundancies. (I am not exactly sure how to do this, but I have some ideas.)
21:56:11 <zzo38> Do you have any ideas related to this?
21:59:07 <GreyKnight> why not go the whole hog and have an infinite number of types of piece on an infinitely large board?
21:59:45 <zzo38> Because I intend to make it exactly googolplex; so finite but very large.
22:02:48 <GreyKnight> well, what do you want to analyse about it?
22:05:20 <zzo38> At first, nothing; I only want to define it. Other analysis can be done later if it is wanted. To make the definition small enough, it is why I suggested something like the above pattern. Anyways if you are esoteric programming community we should know why we are doing it like this regardless of such things as analysis.
22:08:53 <GreyKnight> well I can see how to lay it out, it just doesn't seem like it will have very interesting properties (no offence)
22:10:23 <GreyKnight> so I was wondering if there was some property that you had in mind
22:13:08 <GreyKnight> One way to define piece types is to imagine the piece at the centre of a 19x19 region (i.e. 10 squares from the centre to each edge). Then you take all the possible combinations of having each square movable to and/or capturable to
22:13:23 <GreyKnight> (these can be independent: see FIDE pawns for instance)
22:14:41 <GreyKnight> that won't give a googolplex of piece types but if you restrict the symmetries of the movement pattern you might reach it
22:17:35 <lambdabot> 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...
22:17:51 <GreyKnight> and the rest is an exercise for the reader
22:28:49 <GreyKnight> zzo38: if your imaginary "move region" has radius R (R=10 for my example above) and we assume that staying in the same spot is an invalid move, then there are 4^((2R+1)^2-1) possible piece types in the absence of symmetry constraints
22:32:10 <GreyKnight> so 4^(4R^2 - 4R) types I guess (what a pretty expression)
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22:39:54 <GreyKnight> zzo38: not sure what else to do with this really
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22:56:25 <zzo38> Yes, to think of symmetry too; I suggested to make that none are subsets of another, in order to ensure each is unique; but then all zeros must also correspond to some move pattern too, or if it doesn't, it can instead correspond to some other special feature of the piece; however it still require to be the case each piece different; but allowing a piece that stands still and does nothing is OK
22:57:08 <zzo38> I do intend null moves are invalid; however, a move that stays in the same spot might still affect other things on the board so it is not necessarily a null move.
23:00:36 <GreyKnight> what do you mean by null move in that case?
23:01:14 <zzo38> Null move is passing your turn.
23:01:29 <fizzie> All of Steam's "A game on your wishlist is on sale!" email notifications have so far proudly boasted "0% off!", not exactly the best deal I've heard of.
23:02:14 <GreyKnight> how is a move that keeps the piece in the same spot different from a null move? That is how I would have defined "null move".
23:02:42 <fizzie> I suppose I should take solace in that.
23:04:03 <zzo38> GreyKnight: I mean such things as rifle moves and so on may be difference from null moves.
23:07:00 <GreyKnight> I don't know what that is but I am imagining chess where the pieces have firearms
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23:10:48 <zzo38> I mean a move that you can remove another piece from the board even though the piece capturing it stays in its same place.
23:14:55 <GreyKnight> hm well my above formula didn't take such moves into account
23:18:14 <GreyKnight> you could break it down by a move consisting of two subparts: capturing a piece from one of some set of squares, and moving to one of some set of squares (not necessarily the same set), or just moving to some set of squares (possibly a different set again)
23:18:53 <GreyKnight> only the middle of those three sets needs to allow the current square as valid
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23:31:22 <monqy> welcome back fungot
23:31:22 <fungot> fizzie: xor is a trick, but it's
23:31:22 <fungot> monqy: what's the difference between
23:31:29 <fungot> GreyKnight: or check srfi-0 ( or srfi-7) ( begin (
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23:42:30 <fizzie> fungot: Are you actually written in Scheme, and all that Funge-98 code is just a sham?
23:42:31 <fungot> fizzie: i can calculate the new guess, and compare that to the binding of unquote as was bound by ( lambda ( x k')
23:43:15 <GreyKnight> the funge code actually just shells out to run a scheme interpreter
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23:52:48 <oerjan> well if thutubot can shell out to lambdabot...
23:54:59 <GreyKnight> FR: bot that just forwards requests to another channel and takes input from users there for its responses
23:55:55 <Bike> it's called a "bridge"
23:56:05 <monqy> fr bot that's just a person in a cardboard box
23:56:16 <nooodl> type !help for command info
23:56:22 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:56:33 <Bike> holy shit you changed nicks
23:56:35 <elliott> nooodl: requesting proof of cardboard box residence
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23:58:34 <nooodl> everyone in belgium lives in a cardboard box (don't look that up, trust me,)
23:59:26 <monqy> what do you do when it rains
23:59:51 <monqy> now both sides are soggy
00:00:03 <elliott> monqy: belgians dont die when they get soggy
00:00:35 <monqy> guess i'm not belgian
00:01:04 <GreyKnight> unless those belgians are also witches
00:01:18 <kmc> in belgium it rains french fries and golden ale
00:01:35 <GreyKnight> (is it ever established if Glinda can be dissolved in water? Or is it only *wicked* witches?)
00:01:40 <monqy> soggy french fries? sogged with ale, i mean
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00:02:47 <GreyKnight> although Cracked.com reckons Glinda is basically a villain anyway: http://www.cracked.com/article_18881_5-reasons-greatest-movie-villain-ever-good-witch.html
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00:12:13 <GreyKnight> ...they make a pretty good case, actually...
00:12:41 <Bike> presumably that sort of thing is gone over in the books.
00:19:00 <zzo38> I made this chess variant: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSkingfridayxiii
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00:26:37 <zzo38> I thought it is clear. What part of #11 did you not understand?
00:28:46 <GreyKnight> well I can see what it does, I just don't know why
00:30:32 <zzo38> There was a mistake; I fixed it.
00:30:48 <zzo38> I wrote one letter wrong and missed one word. Now it is corrected.
00:30:57 <GreyKnight> is it to avoid some consequence of doing two such moves? Why not just forbid it and then you don't need a coinflip
00:30:58 <zzo38> Now is rule #11 understandable better?
00:31:44 <GreyKnight> I understand the text, I just don't know the rationale :-P
00:33:11 <GreyKnight> oh damn I just remembered I missed Jupiter's Christmas conjunction through being sick DDDD-:
00:33:55 <zzo38> Simply to add a small amount of chance in only a few cases, beings those symmetric move which, if everyone plays, results in too much symmetric position; therefore you don't play same move always
00:34:08 <zzo38> Jupiter's Christmas conjunction?
00:34:48 <GreyKnight> zzo38: also the rules don't specify what happens to ownership of a pawn if you convert it to a different colour (I assume it changes owners too?)
00:36:16 <GreyKnight> Jupiter had a conjunction with the moon on Christmas Day
00:36:45 <oerjan> moon conjunctions aren't particularly rare, anyway.
00:37:02 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Yes, it does change owner too
00:37:20 <oerjan> there's a new one in january.
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00:38:04 * oerjan somehow follows /r/astronomy
00:38:12 <GreyKnight> oerjan: still, it was a nice Christmas treat and I wanted to see it
00:39:51 <oerjan> well, i subscribed during a supernova, i think, and somehow haven't unsubscribed although it's mostly a lot of telescope talk and picture sharing.
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00:45:08 <Sgeo> Is it normal for Diplomacy's rules to give a headache?
00:45:25 <Sgeo> Decided to try reading them. Gave up for now
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00:49:08 <zzo38> Of ecliptic longitude the conjunction is 16:17 in my timezone, but, according to what you will actually see, you have to consider such things as where you are, how close it is, size, refraction, and you need both coordinates not only one.
00:50:08 <Sgeo> nooodl, board game with almost no elements of chance, where co-operation with opponents is vital. So is backstabbing opponents.
00:50:33 <Sgeo> From TV Tropes
00:50:35 <Sgeo> "To bring an example of the convoluted nature of negotiations, it is not unusual for, say, France to engage in coordinated standoffs with Italy in order to fake a war with him, in order to satisfy Turkey, who demanded that France attack Italy in order to prevent Italy from attacking Austria while Turkey and Austria invade Russia together; the only reason France cares about what Turkey wants from him is that he and England are attempting to in
00:50:35 <Sgeo> vade Russia's allies in Germany, and the Turkish invasion will distract Russia's attention and prevent him from opening up another flank with England. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to France or Turkey, Italy has already made a deal with England to hold off his attack on Austria until the conquest of Germany is completed, at which point he and England will turn on France. It Makes Sense in Context."
00:50:45 * Sgeo goes to actually read what he just pasted
00:51:04 <Bike> man, that doesn't even mention greece at all
00:51:39 <zzo38> Do you know how Greece fits into all of this, though?
00:51:40 <Sgeo> ...my brain broke reading that
00:51:56 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: yeah, that looks like a bad place to learn the rules from :-P
00:52:11 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, I was reading one of the manuals
00:52:22 <Sgeo> I do know the basics vaguely
00:52:33 <Bike> oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
00:52:46 <Bike> i was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Schism
00:53:11 <elliott> `addquote [on Diplomacy] <Bike> man, that doesn't even mention greece at all [...] <Bike> oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
00:53:18 <HackEgo> 888) [on Diplomacy] <Bike> man, that doesn't even mention greece at all [...] <Bike> oh, this is about a game, not world war i.
00:54:20 <Bike> i think it was a reasonable mistake :(
00:56:09 <Sgeo> " The name was appropriated for the tactic of sneaking a counter onto the board when nobody's looking. It's generally considered legal so long as it's taken off when called on it (however, turns are not replayed if it's been making stuff happen)."
00:56:28 <Bike> hey, it's like munchkin!
00:56:43 <Bike> one time nobody noticed someone i was playing with had five different swords equipped
00:57:10 <GreyKnight> sounds like something Fighter McWarrior would do
00:57:32 <Sgeo> The only way that I can make sense of the word "munchkin" in what Bike just said is as a min/maxer, but that doesn't quite fit
00:58:10 <Bike> it is the name of a game
00:58:29 <Bike> but it is about minmaxing, so i award you two points in consolation.
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02:42:14 <hagb4rd_> munchkin..i think i played it oncee, but was too drunken figure out the rules or good strategy that evening. was it that one where cheating is not just allowed but recommended? (as long as you're not caught in the act)
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02:49:09 <zzo38> Does the newest versions of C allow things like: typedef struct { int x; if(0) { 42; } int y; }
02:49:57 <Sgeo> Hmm, Munchkin seems to use a weird variant of Magic's Golden Rule
02:50:16 <Sgeo> In that there are particular rules that cards can't overrule unless... they specifically say they do
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02:55:53 <zzo38> Does any C or C++ version or compiler allow things like that? (where any top-level, array, struct, union, and enumeration can contain if blocks, and any array can contain for blocks; both subject to some restrictions such as constant expressions are required, and braces are required)
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03:00:50 <Jafet> Who needs that crap, we have templates
03:01:23 <zzo38> I think BLISS might have some features a bit like this, maybe, I am not exactly sure
03:02:33 <Bike> Sgeo: munchkin's top rule is actually "whoever shouts about the rule loudest wins".
03:03:01 <Sgeo> Is Munchkin actually a suitable game for munchkining?
03:03:16 <Bike> it's, uh, pretty hard to roleplay, if that's what you mean
03:03:22 <Fiora> I played it a couple times in college, it's extremely silly
03:03:34 <Fiora> it's probably not very fun if people take it too seriously
03:03:47 <Fiora> but it's incredibly hard to take seriously, which is the best part of it XD
03:03:54 <Sgeo> Fiora, that's what I mean, it doesn't seem like it lends itself to being taken seriously
03:03:54 <zzo38> The card game is OK, the board game is bad, in my opinion
03:04:03 <Fiora> ah, yeah, the card game. didn't know there was a board game
03:04:25 <Fiora> it's very munchkiny in the sense that it lets you stack up a billion bonuses, play combinations of cards for amusing results, and all that kind of stuff
03:04:30 <Bike> well, some people take it seriously, but then you can laugh at them.
03:04:40 <Fiora> but in a silly way
03:05:04 <Bike> as opposed to ultra serious laughter?
03:06:01 * Sgeo decides to read about F.A.T.A.L. again
03:06:48 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering cards you can also do something where combinations are played for various results, including making up puzzles or making up your own cards, or just playing the game normally; I like the puzzles, though. It is lesser in other games such as Pokemon card, although puzzles of that can be made up too.
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03:12:15 <Arc_Koen> do you mean puzzles in a way similar to chess problems?
03:12:32 <zzo38> I have even made two Pokemon card puzzles.
03:12:41 <Sgeo> And for the fun part, the FATAL Games logo is "Where the dice never lie."
03:12:45 <Sgeo> ^^from the review
03:12:52 <Sgeo> "Sartin: Yeah, I really like that logo, too. It was nice of the FATALites to point out that when you play games from other companies, your dice may lie to you. Ha, I knew it! All those times I was playing D&D or SenZar, and that d20 would show a 3 or some shit when I knew I rolled a 20. Thanks, FATAL, for showing me the way!"
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03:21:01 <zzo38> Have you made any chess problems?
03:21:19 <zzo38> Or, puzzle for Pokemon card or Magic: the Gathering card?
03:24:05 <zzo38> Another idea is making up some Pokemon card puzzle which may include extra cards that isn't real and is not even necessarily balanced or anything like that, and is only used for the puzzle game; it can be called "Fairy card".
03:25:39 <Arc_Koen> yes, i'm sure Clefairy isn't balanced or anything like that, and is never used for serious games
03:26:54 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Not what I mean, of course.
03:27:18 <zzo38> I have done with Magic: the Gathering cards, just numbered some made up cards, no names other than their number specific to this puzzle.
03:27:31 <Arc_Koen> it's 4:30am and I'm sick so you should at least pretend that I am
03:27:32 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Yes it is a bit funny, I suppose, too
03:28:46 <zzo38> With Pokemon card, though, the made-up card specific to the puzzle could be named by $ and a number, and if applicable, a level. And it is also possible there may be cards $1 [Lv.10] and $1 [Lv.15] to be two different cards, but anything evolving from $1 can be used with it, for example.
03:29:27 <zzo38> (The reason I used $ is because the other ASCII punctuation are mostly already used in my Pokemon card puzzles.)
03:29:39 <Arc_Koen> come on, you got approximately 700 different pokemon to work with, do you really need dollar symbols?
03:30:25 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: It is if you make up your own cards specific to the puzzle. If you use real cards, you would use their actual name instead.
03:30:50 <Arc_Koen> well you could make up a card then find a pokemon it looks like
03:31:18 <zzo38> Yes but then it might conflict with real card having the same name/level.
03:31:51 <kmc> aren't there like 2147483647 pokémon now anyway
03:31:56 <Arc_Koen> hmmm... but it's possible to have different cards for one pokemon, right?
03:32:07 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Yes, as long as their levels ar different.
03:32:23 <Bike> just use ♀ for all pokemon names
03:32:33 <Arc_Koen> kmc: I believe there are a little under 700, but about a hundred of them have around twenty different possible shapes
03:32:58 <zzo38> No I want to use ASCII.
03:33:20 <zzo38> (I know some card names contain non-ASCII; so I use substitutions in that case)
03:33:21 <Arc_Koen> be strong! make up your own charset!
03:34:40 <zzo38> Of course I could do that, but I don't want to do that for this purpose, so I want to use ASCII instead.
03:36:24 <kmc> pok+AOk-mon
03:36:28 <Sgeo> Hmm, what's so bad about a 4d100/2-1 roll?
03:37:33 <Sgeo> Well, I guess rolling it repeatedly for stats that ultimately don't matter is probably annoying
03:39:51 <zzo38> kmc: Well, I don't want to.
03:40:43 <zzo38> Sgeo: I used Goldilock's method to roll for stats; what do you prefer?
03:41:04 <Sgeo> I haven't really ... er, designed an RPG.
03:41:08 <Sgeo> What's Goldilock's method?
03:46:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Make up your own numbers 0 to 9 for each of six ability scores. Using these numbers for two separate results: Add 1d8 to each. Convert to a percentage. Lookup in the table: 1->6, 2->8, 3->9, 4->10, 10->11, 14->12, 19->13, 25->14, 30->15, 35->16, 48->17, 65->18, 77->19. Select one column of results. Calculate bonus points by the total subtracting from 72, divide by 3, add 2, minimum of 2.
03:46:47 <zzo38> Add bonus points according to your choice, but not above 18, and then apply racial modifiers.
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03:52:36 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did you understand this?
03:53:59 <Sgeo> Didn't look at it closely
03:54:40 <Sgeo> I don't understand the "Using these numbers for two separate results" thing
03:55:43 <zzo38> What I mean is that the numbers 0 to 9 that you selected by yourself, are used twice; the process splits at that point. And then with the final results you can pick which one you preferred.
03:59:05 <Sgeo> "Of course, since both sub-abilities are (say it with me) totally random, we don't really know what happens when your Maximum Speech Rate ends up being lower than your Average Speech Rate, but it's just on this side of "totally possible"."
04:01:18 <zzo38> That isn't possible though. I don't even know if it becomes possible when probabilities are not limited to range 0 to 1.
04:01:50 <Bike> are you saying fatal is unrealistic
04:02:17 <zzo38> I am talking about probability, not about fatal or about unrealistic.
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04:14:18 <Sgeo> This review actually says something good about FATAL.
04:14:30 <Sgeo> "After all this crap, though, I have to admit to one bright point. I liked how some of the sub-abilities provided real life-kinda examples or descriptions for each score. Like Strength listing how much you can lift, or the Vocal Charisma and Math columns I mentioned (okay, those ended up being dumb anyway, but the basic idea wasn't so bad). Examples like these can give solid ideas on how good a score really is, something many RPG systems have
04:14:31 <Sgeo> had trouble with."
04:15:48 <zzo38> What is a probability distribution called dealing with such thing as 4d6 drop lowest? What is a probability distribution called which is toss a coin until tails?
04:16:09 <Bike> isn't the latter a poisson
04:18:19 <coppro> we speak English and Finnish in here
04:18:51 <kmc> ääääääääääääääää
04:20:15 <zzo38> I think it is similar to Knuth's Poisson algorithm, but it isn't quite.
04:20:58 <Jafet> I'll go fish 'em too.
04:21:53 <kmc> number of flips needed to get tails would be a geometric distribution
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04:23:25 <zzo38> But what distribution is 4d6 drop lowest?
04:25:33 <zzo38> What probability distribution would this be? Roll 1d20. If it is 1, then roll again and subtract 19; further 1s (but not 20s) continue rolling. If it is 20, then roll again and add 19; further 20s (but not 1s) continue rolling.
04:26:30 <kmc> it probably does not have a name
04:26:37 <kmc> it is the Zzo38 Distribution
04:26:54 <kmc> you can easily write its pdf though because it is discrete
04:28:03 <zzo38> O, it doesn't have a name.
04:31:29 <kmc> maybe it has a name but i do not know what the name (if any) is
04:34:12 <Sgeo> http://www.flickr.com/photos/32779242@N04/3671923055/
04:36:39 <zzo38> But I also don't know
04:39:03 <Sgeo> kmc, the chart is from FATAL, apparently
04:39:18 <kmc> what is FATAL
04:40:15 <Sgeo> A horrifically bad RPG
04:42:02 <Sgeo> http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml
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04:44:28 <Sgeo> "You can also roll a d10,000,000 in order to find out how many babies a particular woman will have, even though there are only five potential outcomes."
04:48:26 <Jafet> I want to see a d10e7
04:50:28 <kmc> do they even *make* dragonball z condoms?
04:52:24 <coppro> http://www.globalprotection.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CUSTOM
04:53:23 <Jafet> "You'll be amazed at how well people react to receiving a condom as a promotional item."
04:57:46 <Sgeo> I ... just fully processed a bit of the creator of FATAL's rebuttal to the review
04:57:55 <Sgeo> The review: "As usual, in case you forgot someone was holding a gun to your head and making you read FATAL. Or that sexuality can be argued to include "Does not desire anal sex from either gender"."
04:58:06 <Sgeo> The reply: "It is numerically impossible for an anakim to be asexual. Jason's back to senseless arguments again."
04:58:36 <Sgeo> Actually, wait, no, the reply is less sensible than that snippet made it look
04:58:48 <Sgeo> http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/FRRpart3
05:00:03 <Sgeo> Oh, ok, I think... sense can be made out of .. it... kind of?
05:00:17 <Sgeo> http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?180687-FATAL-A-Bad-Bad-Game-Or-So-People-Say/page16
05:06:29 <Sgeo> "[Jason] Sartin: So, basically, FATAL is the date rape RPG.
05:06:29 <Sgeo> Byron Hall: Another faulty conclusion drawn by Darren. Where is dating included?"
05:06:36 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/FATAL
05:11:19 <Sgeo> http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/blogs/latest/entry/gaming-disconnect-15-fatal
05:12:55 <Jafet> Is Sgeo aroused yet
05:13:45 <Sgeo> I like funny reviews of horrible works
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05:59:42 <zzo38> Can enumerations be forward declaration in C?
06:03:34 <buffer> ISO C forbids forward references to "enum" types. GCC allows it as an extension.
06:15:05 <Sgeo> elliott, Fiora Taneb update
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06:49:50 <kmc> made a spiced rye sourdough
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07:33:30 <hagb4rd> finally a good point to start if you're confused of the relations between this ancient divine comedians
07:33:32 <hagb4rd> ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_the_Greek_gods
07:36:48 <hagb4rd> actually the children of erebus(darkness) and nyx(night) were aether(heaven) and hemera(day)..interesting
07:37:14 <coppro> I wonder what portion of modern interpretation of Greek myth was based on fanfic?
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08:06:24 <hagb4rd> to catch your thought: we can say that greeks mythology was a sort of fanfiction, created as tribute for the meanders and wonders of their existance..
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08:07:35 <coppro> hagb4rd: well but what if homer wrote and chronicled a bunch of the myths
08:07:50 <coppro> and then a bunch of other people just shipped zeus/*** because they liked that pairing?
08:08:09 <hagb4rd> ..and maybe because they were absolutely exicted of the egypt who really spaced things oit
08:09:02 <hagb4rd> homer right.. but what do you mean by shipped?
08:09:45 <coppro> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping
08:16:40 <hagb4rd> imho every of this stories (as far as i know them) reflects a part of the substantivness of this world and our lifes
08:17:31 <hagb4rd> and it does better than coca-cola, hawking or marvel.. what do you think?
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08:22:30 <hagb4rd> woa.. follow the line of the children of night!
08:22:43 <hagb4rd> "who among you will run with the hunt"?
08:24:09 <hagb4rd> i hope you already had your breakfastß
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10:09:10 <Sgeo> WHAT THE FUCK CLOSING A POPUP SHOULD NOT QUIT CHROME
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12:32:46 <atriq> We're getting a new router soon
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14:41:32 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/JIVX
14:41:32 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:41:43 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stealth: 42.7
14:42:37 <ais523> not sure how much further I can force the strategy
14:43:02 <ais523> but at least it demonstrates that the slowpoke/space_hotel/ffspg strategy is beatable
14:43:27 <ais523> especially on short tapes
14:43:40 <Taneb> I'd conjecture that there's no "undefeatable" strategy
14:43:48 <Taneb> Kinda like Pokemon
14:43:51 <ais523> although that one took some thought in calculating how to defeat
14:43:56 <Taneb> Except Sableye doesn't exist
14:44:12 <ais523> also stealth doesn't beat space_elevator
14:45:51 <ais523> also it has problems against old-fashioned pokes, rather than the new-fashioned sort
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14:47:38 <ais523> also stealth versus brachiation on length 30 is hilarious
14:47:48 <ais523> they both manage to lock themselves on the other's clear loop
14:52:49 <ais523> I just managed to make it a little stealthier, and apparently that helped
14:53:39 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/hGGI
14:53:42 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stealth: 42.6
14:54:02 <fizzie> That must be the "new math".
14:54:57 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/JIVX
14:55:00 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stealth: 42.6
14:55:03 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/hGGI
14:55:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stealth: 42.6
14:55:16 <ais523> just it must have done particularly well against the program it knocked off the scoreboard
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15:00:31 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/QMiA
15:00:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stealth: 42.5
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15:01:44 <ais523> I prefer this version, though, because it does better against the programs it's meant to do well against
15:06:29 <ais523> !bfjoust stealth http://sprunge.us/jRNX
15:06:33 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_stealth: 43.3
15:14:05 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
15:14:11 <ais523> see also http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
15:14:16 <ais523> the best esolang sport in existence
15:14:22 <ais523> (probably because there aren't many esolang sports in existence)
15:15:08 <olsner> possibly the only reason to ever learn brainfuck
15:15:54 <ais523> feel free to submit programs to egobot in the channel; the way the hill is designed is that if you submit a bad program, it'll fall off quickly
15:15:58 <ais523> so you can't really screw things up
15:16:07 <ais523> if you submit a good program, it stays much longer for other people to compete against
15:16:55 <Taneb> Has anyone seen werecat lately?
15:18:19 <ais523> he was pretty good at BF Joust, though
15:18:30 <nooodl> i have no idea how to even begin writing a program for this
15:18:35 <ais523> (I'm not as good as him or quintopia, I think, although I'm more prolific)
15:18:39 <ais523> nooodl: that's what the strategies page is for
15:18:50 <ais523> originally none of us had any idea
15:18:59 <ais523> but people came up with strategies, and then we documented them
15:19:42 <Taneb> My most successful strategy was to change one character in somebody else's
15:19:50 <ais523> Taneb: which program was that?
15:19:59 <Taneb> I'm awful at BF Joust
15:20:35 <ais523> nooodl: a cookie-cutter first program is to set some decoys then use a standard clear loop
15:20:59 <olsner> I'm amazed my programs are still on the list
15:21:33 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
15:21:36 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 23.2
15:22:15 <ais523> but it doesn't do very well
15:22:36 <ais523> and olsner, your programs aren't very high on the list
15:22:41 <ais523> they're falling gradually
15:23:25 <ais523> @tell quintopia I made a program based on what we discussed, and a few other concepts too; see ais523_stealth
15:24:34 <ais523> stealth is fourth on points, incidentally, although eighth on score
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15:26:09 <ais523> huh, triplock2 has finally fallen off the hill
15:26:23 <ais523> looks like the hill has adapted such that triplocking is no longer a viable strategy
15:26:23 <nooodl> !bfjoust thingy (+>)*8(>[-]+)*21
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15:26:26 <EgoBot> Score for nooodl_thingy: 18.4
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15:26:46 <ais523> nooodl: you got some wins: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/breakdown.txt
15:27:45 <nooodl> i guess the metastrategy is just, look at what the current best strategies do and design something that beats all of them somehow
15:28:00 <nooodl> time to watch http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/ for my thing
15:28:05 <ais523> although the metastrategy sort-of converged, recently
15:28:22 <ais523> with all the best programs working the same way
15:28:36 <ais523> quintopia and I tried to work out how to pick on that strategy, but it's pretty hard
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15:58:16 <hagb4rd> night turns grey into dark..which comforts me much better
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15:59:11 <stupidnoob> is there really a compiler from mariolang?
15:59:25 <HackEgo> stupidnoob: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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16:04:57 <stupidnoob> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MarioLANG loking at that, is there atually a program to compile it?
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16:09:52 <nooodl> the spec is way too ambiguous to implement...
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16:15:59 <FreeFull> nooodl: Only if you care about following specs
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17:02:54 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk_XaJ7gE4Q ..baby don't hurt me, no more <3
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17:04:17 <hagb4rd> (hope there is no politcal background on that one)
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17:09:58 <elliott> also http://vimeo.com/1109226
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17:10:34 <tswett> If I understand this thing correctly, Godel's statement is not necessarily true in a consistent system.
17:11:00 <Taneb> It has to be sufficiently powerful
17:11:08 <hagb4rd> oh this one ist very minimalistic
17:11:10 <tswett> Like, consider first-order Peano arithmetic, and the Godel statement "the Godel statement of Peano arithmetic cannot be proved".
17:11:27 <oerjan> presbyter arithmetic or whatchamacallit
17:11:56 <tswett> There are models of Peano arithmetic in which that statement is false.
17:13:11 <hagb4rd> isn't that a radiohead song?
17:14:59 <oerjan> it has to be powerful enough to encode the existence of proofs in its own system, at least. and presumably to verify constructive proofs that it _isn't_ consistent.
17:16:28 <tswett> Yeah, but apparently that's not sufficient.
17:16:37 <tswett> Like I said, there are models of Peano arithmetic in which the Godel statement is false.
17:17:37 <oerjan> the first answer here is quite relevant http://mathoverflow.net/questions/9864/presburger-arithmetic
17:18:07 <oerjan> not just the part about presburger
17:18:39 <hagb4rd> on peano: "Paris and Harrington (1977) gave the first "natural" example of a statement which is true for the integers but unprovable in Peano arithmetic (Spencer 1983)."
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17:58:02 <kmc> http://web.mit.edu/cp/www/presslogs/Dec-17-2012.pdf Incident Type: WEAPONS VIOLATION
17:58:05 <kmc> Comments: STUDENT IN GYM AREA DRESSED AS NINJA. STUDENT COOPERATIVE SAID DRESSED FOR EXAM.
17:59:28 <fizzie> Is NO REPORTS OF RESIDENTIAL FIRES related to the item?
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18:11:17 <kmc> http://events.ccc.de/congress/2012/Fahrplan/events/5265.en.html damn i want to see this talk
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18:17:05 <HackEgo> ARandomOWL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:17:22 <HackEgo> buffer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:19:23 <buffer> kmc: hasn't the page fault exception handler been used and abused on x86, made public, advertised ruthlessly to papers and color-schemed magazines for years?
18:19:54 <buffer> I'm not impressed with this year's ccc assortment of talks
18:20:11 <kmc> i'm not saying it's novel research just that it probably contains stuff i don't know
18:20:20 <kmc> it sounds like it covers a lot more than the page fault exception handler
18:20:55 <buffer> In this talk we will give a (nearly) complete historic overview of creative uses of memory-related traps and faults by hardening patches such as OpenWall, PaX, and other less known but interesting projects, as well as by rootkit designs such as ShadowWalker, and by unorthodox reverse engineering and debugging systems such as OllyBone. We will then show some novel tricks with the x86 systems to both conceal and protect memory contents.
18:21:28 <kmc> they mention segmentation and task switch segment as well as interactions with TLB and other caching systems in the presence of multiprocessing
18:21:33 <kmc> so yeah, sounds cool
18:21:37 <kmc> if you don't like it then that's fine
18:21:44 <oerjan> <stupidnoob> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MarioLANG loking at that, is there atually a program to compile it? <-- as someone else implied, the spec is so ambiguous any implementor would have to make up a large part of how it works
18:21:53 <kmc> i guess i care more about learning than about having the biggest hacker dong in the room
18:22:05 <oerjan> and the original language author is nowhere to be seen these days, afaik
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18:28:25 <fizzie> oerjan: On the other hand, version 2.0 has jetpacks. (Allegedly.)
18:53:05 <kmc> also not surprising, but amusing: "Lastly, we built on last year's presentation by discussing the feasibility of exploiting Cisco phones from compromised HP printers and vice versa."
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18:55:38 <kmc> they have developed a worm that takes over all the Cisco phones in an organization and then covertly exfiltrates microphone recordings
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19:07:37 <fizzie> Aren't dudettes also dudes?
19:09:57 <shachaf> I woke up at midnight or so today.
19:10:01 <kmc> that's fun
19:10:15 <shachaf> Let's see if I survive it.
19:11:11 <kmc> i should hope so
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19:19:00 <olsner> shachaf: you will not survive
19:19:13 <buffer> prepare for 2013/5/19 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events#Future_predictions
19:19:38 <kmc> "Ronald Weinland's revised prediction of Jesus Christ's return following his failed 2011 and 2012 predictions."
19:19:41 <kmc> sounds credible
19:21:03 <olsner> assuming the apocalypse does happen this time, he's been corrct one out of three times... you could do worse
19:23:25 <kmc> "The Earth would be destroyed by an asteroid, Nibiru, or some other interplanetary object; an alien invasion; or a supernova. Scientists from NASA, along with expert archeologists, stated that none of those events were possible."
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19:23:58 <kmc> that seems to overstate the case
19:24:10 <kmc> i don't think NASA can definitively rule out an alien invasion on any particular future date
19:25:21 <oerjan> a supernova is pretty ruled out though, iirc
19:25:22 <kmc> they may already be among us
19:25:56 <fizzie> "He later stated that the end of the world had indeed begun on May 27, 2012, but would take "one year to become fulfilled". Weinland asserts that Christ will now return on Pentecost of 2013, which will fall on May 19, 2013."
19:26:20 <kmc> alien beings living in some remote northern land, speaking a strange alien language and developing esoteric programming
19:27:06 <shachaf> Hmm, I remember http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29601/29601-h/29601-h.htm
19:27:14 <kmc> oerjan: yeah, i guess it depends on whether you include "we fundamentally misunderstand the laws of physics" in the scope of "possibility" or consider it to be some meta-theoretic thing
19:28:29 <kmc> also maybe aliens would detonate some kind of device inside the sun to make it go supernova prematurely
19:28:32 <kmc> 2010 style
19:30:21 <oerjan> s/prematurely/at all/, the sun is generally believed too small to become one
19:30:46 <shachaf> monqy: it's like :0 but with @ instead of 0
19:30:57 <olsner> maybe they could make it a whatever-it-would-be instead?
19:31:12 <olsner> if you can build a supernova device, that couldn't be too tricky
19:31:22 <oerjan> and then a white dwarf
19:31:27 <fizzie> This is something I've been wondering: when you're doing, say, Android development, and run a thing in the emulator, and want to perform a "pinch" gesture, what do you do? Install Multi-Pointer X, plug in a second mouse and do a two-handed pinch?
19:31:52 <oerjan> the vulcan android pinch
19:32:18 <oerjan> (star trek had some blowing up stars, i recall)
19:32:53 <olsner> fizzie: there's some thingy where you connect an android device to provide all touch input
19:33:13 <olsner> but then you could just test on that device instead of in the emulator
19:33:27 <fizzie> olsner: "Develop on Virtual Devices -- Advanced hardware emulation, including camera, sensors, multitouch, telephony" -- I suppose it's part of that.
19:33:57 <oerjan> now to turn the sun quickly into a red giant, it would seem you would have to get its hydrogen to fuse superfast, which would seem like it would blow it up anyhow.
19:36:42 <olsner> fizzie: that sounds like it might just be describing the emulator
19:37:16 <fizzie> olsner: Yes, but if it "emulates multitouch", I suppose it must have some way of performing it.
19:38:40 <fizzie> "The emulator supports multi-touch input, as an experimental feature in r17, using a tethered Android device running the SdkControllerMultitouch appplication."
19:38:49 <fizzie> Aw, apparently that's the only thing they support.
19:40:52 <olsner> iirc the emulator uses SDL, that might help you adjust your expectations
19:42:04 <fizzie> I saw something about doing hardware graphics acceleration. Though I suppose that doesn't exactly preclude SDL; there's OpenGL support in there.
19:51:07 <buffer> kmc: http://29c3.fem-net.de - http live streaming is up.
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20:16:02 <elliott> ais523: what's the FHS-correct location for a debootstrapped chroot
20:17:17 <ais523> err, not sure, /home seems to make the most sense
20:17:31 <elliott> ais523: /home/foo/home/foo looks a bit silly
20:18:16 <olsner> I've seen /srv used for that in e.g. examples, but no idea if that agrees with the FHS
20:19:34 <fizzie> "/srv contains site-specific data which is served by this system. -- The methodology used to name subdirectories of /srv is unspecified as there is currently no consensus on how this should be done. One method for structuring data under /srv is by protocol, eg. ftp, rsync, www, and cvs. On large systems it can be useful to structure /srv by administrative context, such as /srv/physics/www, ...
20:19:40 <fizzie> ... /srv/compsci/cvs, etc. This setup will differ from host to host."
20:20:04 <ais523> I've seen /home structured by administrative context, on very large systems
20:21:01 <fizzie> My home directory is /u/22/htkallas/unix on the university systems.
20:21:31 <fizzie> /u has the subdirectories 01 .. 99, and there's some kind of a scheme to divide accounts into them.
20:22:15 <fizzie> (All 99 are separate NFS mounts.)
20:23:43 <fizzie> It's all very strange nowadays when it's full of Kerberos and Microsoft Active Directory.
20:24:13 <fizzie> My gid is 70000(Domain Users), for example.
20:25:02 <fizzie> And there's some kind of a thing where the regular Unix permissions sometimes show very misleading things, confusing some programs.
20:31:43 <fizzie> olsner: I have had that emulator running at 100% (single-core) CPU use for maybe twenty minutes now, trying to power off. I'm wondering if it's still actually doing anything or not; certainly it's still animating the twirly bit.
20:32:36 <olsner> fizzie: did you get the x86 and virtualization thing going?
20:32:52 <olsner> without that it's quite slow
20:34:16 <fizzie> olsner: I just started it out of curiosity, so no.
20:34:26 <fizzie> elliott: The dandruff emulator.
20:34:31 <fizzie> Or, wait... I think it was something else.
20:35:16 <fizzie> olsner: It was an ARM AVD, so it's not a surprise it's slow.
20:35:31 <fizzie> olsner: Still, it's been shutting down far longer than it took to start up (maybe 5 minutes?).
20:36:10 <olsner> if you're bored, just kill it?
20:37:19 <fizzie> But maybe it will get CORRPUTED.
20:37:25 <fizzie> Then again, I could just delete it...
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20:39:21 <fizzie> Also, there's no x86 "System Image" for Android 4.2 in my SDK Manager. :/
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20:42:21 <olsner> there should be at least one x86 image... dunno how they decide which version they provide it for though
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20:50:33 <FreeFull> fizzie: Check if it's actually accessing any data
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20:55:07 <fizzie> FreeFull: I killeded it already. :/
20:55:51 <fizzie> olsner: The SDK Manager only shows "ARM EABI v7a System Image" and "MIPS System Image" for 4.2; there's ARM + x86 + MIPS for e.g. 4.1.2 and 4.0.3, though.
20:56:16 <olsner> if you need 4.2 I guess you're out of luck
21:08:08 <fizzie> I don't think I "need" anything.
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21:12:49 <Sgeo> Worms thread on /r/gaming !
21:13:23 <kmc> Worms! Oh my god worms!
21:14:56 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/15j2mk/the_most_unbalanced_ai_i_have_ever_fought/
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22:02:30 <kmc> watching the cisco phone hacking talk
22:02:31 <kmc> http://theora.29c3.fem-net.de:8001/room1_video.ogg
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22:05:26 <kmc> well now i'm watching a black screen
22:06:01 <kmc> yeah i've seen better
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22:07:53 <kmc> even in the future nothing works
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22:08:37 <oerjan> black screens are the new black
22:08:44 <Taneb> For another 3 days, yeah
22:08:51 <Taneb> Then we go back to some lame past-y year
22:09:11 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, watch Spaceballs if you haven't seen it
22:09:12 <oerjan> no, then we'll be in the post-future, duh
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22:35:04 <GreyKnight> Tired of people using BF-conversion as a TC proof as well. What about a nice juicy Turing machine?!
22:35:46 <Bike> cyclic tag machines are the new black
22:38:48 <Taneb> Of my langauges, two reduce to P'' (brainfuck), one to Lambda Calculus, one to SKI calculus, one to a Turing machine, one to Underload and hence to Minsky machines, and the rest probably aren't TC
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22:39:11 <Taneb> I think that's a nice range
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22:39:20 <Taneb> Although I'd like one to reduce to Wang Tiles
22:39:43 <elliott> (Move log); 19:06 . . Star651 (Talk | contribs | block) moved page From INTERCAL to Ellipsis: The Esoteric Programming Story to From INTERCAL to LOLCODE: The Esoteric Programming Story (Ellipsis is too BFlipse )
22:41:06 <GreyKnight> iif I make a cool esolang can i be in the documentary ._.
22:41:07 <monqy> im excited for more talk page action
22:41:23 <monqy> an exciting esolang like: ellipses or lolcode
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22:42:45 <Taneb> Unfortunately the only really recent esolang I can think of that's actually interesting, I created
22:43:07 <Bike> is it lolcode?
22:43:17 <Taneb> I did not create that
22:43:18 <monqy> why not one ais or cpressey created
22:43:27 <Taneb> My worst esolang is the mysterious Ook!++
22:43:32 <Taneb> Which only I have seen
22:43:36 <Bike> i'm already horrified.
22:43:38 <elliott> there have been interesting languages in 2012
22:43:50 <Taneb> elliott, Fueue is almost interesting
22:43:50 <Bike> international transport?
22:44:37 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:NewPages
22:44:53 <elliott> ais523 and cpressey have made several languages this year
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22:51:03 <Taneb> Did Truth machines happen this year?
22:53:52 <oerjan> Taneb: Fueue almost certainly can do all of Underload other than S, it's just that i left out ~ * and a because they seemed like they would be comparably painful. adding just ~ would give a path via turing machines instead of minsky.
22:53:57 <monqy> im curious as to what language this star guy knows of
22:54:32 <Sgeo> Does being obscure make something "underground"?
22:54:43 <Sgeo> Then again, I guess I've seen underground used in that context before
22:54:46 <Sgeo> Seems a bit weird to me
22:55:32 <Bike> esolang of the mole people
22:56:06 <monqy> GreyKnight: well it's interesting how he picks ellipsis and lolcode, and makes the languages he does
22:56:20 <monqy> GreyKnight: almost as if he doesn't know what makes a language interesting : )
22:57:50 <GreyKnight> Bike: I think a bully automaton like RUBE but in a minecraft-like cavern?
22:58:05 <Bike> uuuuugh redstone crap
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22:59:10 <oerjan> GreyKnight: i think Snack is pretty underground. we certainly want to keep it buried.
22:59:33 <Bike> i have a reduction of "greyknight is crap" to the existence of creative sets right here bro
22:59:41 <monqy> has anyone written an esme program????that's what i thought
23:00:11 <oerjan> monqy: the spec is a little, er
23:00:58 <elliott> Bike: whats wrong with redstone
23:01:07 <Bike> red sucks, as a color
23:01:19 <monqy> does stone suck too
23:01:49 <oerjan> monqy: those two languages have one thing in common, of course.
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23:01:51 <zzo38> What stones do you like, then?
23:03:02 * GreyKnight pelts Bike with razor-sharp obsidian chunks
23:03:43 <oerjan> GreyKnight: also the technical term is lart hth
23:03:59 <olsner> GreyKnight: ah, conchoidal fracturing stones are nice
23:04:33 * GreyKnight zaps oerjan with a cattle prod -----E**
23:04:48 * oerjan hits GreyKnight with the saucepan ===\__/
23:05:37 * GreyKnight tickles oerjan with a feather-duster -----<<=
23:06:06 <olsner> do feathers typically need to be dusted?
23:06:15 <GreyKnight> monqy: The One Saucepan, it corrupts the minds of men and also cooks your beans
23:06:25 <monqy> does it cook other things too
23:06:46 <hagb4rd> it's deeper than a pan right?
23:07:28 <GreyKnight> monqy: yes but that makes it more likely to corrupt you. I would stick with beans.
23:08:26 <olsner> fungot: how to exist cows?
23:08:27 <fungot> olsner: what d debugger is there then? :o))
23:08:39 <GreyKnight> Bike: sounds like a chippy in Innsmouth
23:10:08 <hagb4rd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(mythology)
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23:14:06 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
23:14:17 <oerjan> fungot: what do you know about chippies
23:14:19 <fungot> oerjan: ' they's more abaout him as i listened to the noises heard by legrasse's men as they ploughed on through the early afternoon, and elwood who had meanwhile seen the papers and of their fear of the unknown.
23:14:31 <Bike> fungot: have you been to that greasy spoon, The Deep Spoon?
23:14:32 <fungot> Bike: thus the great race sped across the room to a huge mahogany chest. he selected one, automatically. throw a stick, and the
23:16:02 <GreyKnight> fungot: can I get a sausage supper please
23:16:03 <fungot> GreyKnight: you will probably call this raving at first, yet soon increasing to a deafening, maddening intensity.
23:16:55 <Bike> "you will probably call this raving at first, and then later you'll call it really annoying and loud raving"
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23:17:38 <hagb4rd> fizzie failed at splitting the text fragments
23:18:17 <Taneb> By the way I finished my Fueue interpreter
23:18:58 <olsner> did you save the code?
23:24:16 <FreeFull> let remNth n = (a <- getLine) >> print $ map snd $ filter (\(x,y) -> x `mod` n == 0) $ zip [0..] a Why is it complaining and failing on the <-
23:25:40 <elliott> because that's not valid syntax
23:25:46 <elliott> do you want to use do notation or (>>) or (>>=)
23:26:19 <zzo38> But <- is not a expression.
23:26:36 <zzo38> You use <- for a do-notation
23:26:45 <elliott> well you didn't really use anything since your code doesn't make sense :P
23:27:00 <elliott> let's put it another way: why are you writing "(a <- getLine) >>"?
23:27:22 <zzo38> You can use getLine >>= print . map snd . filter (\(x,y) -> x `mod` n == 0) . zip [0..] maybe.
23:27:23 <FreeFull> Because I thought do notation and >> were equivalent
23:27:39 <zzo38> Or you can use >>= \a ->
23:27:51 <zzo38> Or do-notation with do { a <- getLine; ...
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23:28:02 <kmc> they are equivalent but that doesn't mean you can mix up the syntax however you like
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23:28:27 <kmc> within do { ... } you have a sequence of statements; each statement is either an expression or (variable <- expression)
23:28:42 <kmc> (or let ... = ...)
23:28:45 <elliott> kmc: or other things which I am restraining myself from listing for the sake of pedagogy
23:28:58 <elliott> hard to control my inner pedant
23:29:03 <kmc> (variable <- expression) is not an expression by itself; it is a statement, and statements only make sense syntactically inside a 'do' block
23:29:17 <zzo38> And if you don't put <- then it is still the expression but with no variable binding.
23:29:19 <elliott> anyway do notation is more powerful than just (>>), you can rewrite any do block in terms of (>>=) though
23:29:27 * GreyKnight inserts an 'n' and gives elliott an inner necklace
23:29:28 <monqy> kmc: um list comprehensions!!!
23:29:29 <elliott> (m >> x is just m >>= \_ -> x)
23:29:50 <Bike> is let... not an expression
23:29:55 <kmc> elliott: those are the only 3 syntactic forms of statements in standard haskell
23:29:58 <kmc> "let ... in ..." is
23:30:00 <monqy> Bike: you're thinking of let...in...
23:30:11 <kmc> but 'do' supports an alternative form of 'let'
23:30:17 <zzo38> There are also <$> and join and other operations which can also be used for some purposes.
23:30:27 <elliott> kmc: I typed that before you listed the third kind
23:30:32 <kmc> do { let x = a; b; ... } === let x = a in do { b; ... }
23:30:33 <kmc> elliott: ok
23:31:26 <FreeFull> I use it even when I really should have used .
23:31:56 <kmc> @let (€) = flip ($)
23:32:10 <kmc> > 3 € succ
23:32:10 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
23:32:14 <kmc> f u lambdabot
23:32:31 <Bike> how does it do € in the let but not the eval
23:32:40 <oerjan> interesting, so @let _is_ unicode clean :P
23:32:41 <Bike> what is this insanity. what is this lambdabot
23:32:58 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
23:33:45 <oerjan> Bike: presumably @let doesn't pass through mueval's eval as a string, but is written directly to the L.hs file which > imports implicitly
23:33:51 <elliott> Bike: you misspelled hexham
23:33:52 <zzo38> (.) :: Category c => c y z -> c x y -> c x z
23:33:58 <Bike> what is this hexham
23:34:05 <FreeFull> I tried the € thing in ghci and I'm getting a type error
23:34:11 <oerjan> and so avoids the broken conversion, wherever it is
23:34:12 <elliott> Bike: that was re hoxhaism btw
23:34:22 <Bike> the infamous hoxha-hexha split
23:34:54 <monqy> (And from what input)
23:35:20 <monqy> GreyKnight: that's rotate ($)
23:35:30 <oerjan> GreyKnight: | is syntax so not available
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23:38:01 <monqy> 1 as a workaround (num instance???anyone)
23:39:51 <oerjan> I WANT MY INFINITE BITS
23:39:54 <oerjan> > rotate 1 (-10) :: Int
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23:41:45 <FreeFull> My final code seems to be remNth n = getLine >>= print . map snd . filter (\(x,y) -> x `mod` n /= 0) . zip [1..]
23:42:02 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `a0' in the constraints:
23:42:18 <kmc> FreeFull: it might be nicer to use 'interact'
23:42:59 <elliott> is GreyKnight the knew shachaf
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23:44:33 <FreeFull> kmc: Except interact won't stop after one line
23:47:19 <fizzie> fungot: Some raving of a deafening, maddening intensity, please?
23:47:20 <fungot> fizzie: whom it is not well to look too long and steadily at the great central plaza swarming with fnord ghouls and night-gaunts prepared for flight, each ghoul selecting a suitable pair of horned steeds to bear him. carter feared for a moment my surroundings seemed confused, like a fnord.
23:47:55 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, that's raving all right.
23:47:56 <fungot> fizzie: beyond it he saw a very terrible outline of something noxiously thin and horned and fnord and went forgotten out of
23:48:12 <olsner> fungot: tell me more about the fnord ghouls and night-gaunts
23:48:15 <fungot> olsner: one early morning when the tide of battle turned against the toadlike abnormalities on the jagged rock and the extermination of the toadlike horrors fought desperately with the great spears clutched in their powerful and disgusting paws. the time would be easy to know, dobbs has been my sixth sense. now, however, agree as to the vegetable as to the nature of what he knew of suydam's death and transfer at sea, fnord and
23:48:35 <oerjan> > let remNth n = takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt (n-1) . drop 1) in remNth 5 "Hello, world!"
23:49:01 <oerjan> > let remNth n = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . splitAt (n-1) . drop 1) in remNth 5 "Hello, world!"
23:49:48 <fizzie> I think we can all agree on that.
23:51:03 <oerjan> > let remNth n = concat . takeWhile (not . null) . unfoldr (Just . second (drop 1) . splitAt (n-1)) in remNth 5 "Hello, world!"
23:51:11 <fizzie> oerjan: You don't agree as to the vegetable?
23:52:03 <fizzie> fungot: What is it which can eternal lie, if it not be dead?
23:52:05 <fungot> fizzie: stands alone in its class, and marks a distinct epoch in the history of this bleak realm of ice and death is of the highest of the citys carven towers came into sight the glittering minarets of the city helped us to orient ourselves to the scene of unholy worship, so inspector legrasse and his nineteen colleagues plunged on unguided into black arcades of horror that none of them had vanished he left that garden, each ha
23:52:23 <fizzie> Yeah, I think it broke.
23:54:50 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:55:27 <fizzie> fungot: Try to be a bit more TERSE, a bit more OPTOMIZED. So you won't get cut off.
23:55:28 <fungot> fizzie: aspinwall spoke again. " these look like clever fnord. if they aren't, they may mean that randolph carter now has no hands well adapted to forming human script." melmoth was widely read and eventually dramatized, but its late date in the land citys history. they were
23:55:56 <GreyKnight> It's clever fnord, over your head fizzie
23:55:57 <fizzie> Randolph Carter has no hands.
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23:56:29 <oerjan> look cthulhu, no hands!
23:56:55 <fizzie> fungot: Does the Great Cthulhu have any hands?
23:56:58 <fungot> fizzie: immediate results were rather discouraging, though they were mercifully blurred, and showed the painstaking methods of the artist not so much with those outside; for there was in the army, and ghouls and night-gaunts. a large detachment of the horned flyers would first of all of the illuminating phosphorescence. creeping up to it from behind the locked portal, he did not even try to give us the churning, fnord fog, the
23:57:09 <fizzie> (Oh no, I dropped a space.)
23:57:48 <shachaf> > "Hello, world!" & upon (\x -> (x!!10) `seq` "") %~ tail
23:57:59 <oerjan> no fhtagns today, my shoggoth's gone away
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03:30:43 <Sgeo> " The difficulty in transferring graphical images through the Internet without a resource such as a large Web page or a FTP site, and the fact that most maps already available are in postscript format (when few home users have postscript printers) means these minor rule change variants flourish."
03:30:54 <Sgeo> I think that this article might be a little old
03:31:21 <Bike> glad we all have postscript printers now. otherwise google maps would be so useless.
03:34:09 <Sgeo> [The article is talking about Diplomacy variant maps]
03:36:43 <hagb4rd> its not only old, it didn't even make any sense back then
03:38:30 <hagb4rd> graphical images.. what is that .. 'through the internet' without a resource(?) as a 'large webspace' lol
03:39:04 <hagb4rd> and how could the format affect this difficulties?
03:39:25 <Sgeo> I think the idea is that back then not many people had access to web space or FTP space
03:39:41 <Fiora> old articles about the internet are fun
03:40:09 <Fiora> I still have an old simcity 2000 strategy guide from 1994 talking about how to connect to services like compuserv to download scenarios off of ftp. and getting on usenet to talk with other players
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03:41:03 <zzo38> Does the Usenet group for Simcity 2000 still used, anyways? If so, then it may work.
03:41:15 <kmc> cutting edge analysis
03:41:20 <zzo38> But you should use internet to download scenarios off of FTP, not Compuserv, by now.
03:42:25 <Sgeo> http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/menu/
03:42:34 <Sgeo> The NetScape logo is still in use
03:42:56 <Sgeo> NetScape.com is owned by AOL
03:43:30 <Sgeo> Tripod still exists
03:46:06 <kmc> and goatse.cx is now a webmail provider
03:47:31 <hagb4rd> and john carmack is now building space ships
03:48:01 <hagb4rd> (which maybe is not surprising at all)
03:50:02 <kmc> and the google founders, Ross Perot, and James Cameron are starting an asteroid mining company
03:50:17 <Bike> and in dead cities, djikstra lies dreaming
03:50:17 <kmc> Ross Perot Jr. i mean
03:50:29 <kmc> which if you think about it, is basically the setup for a james bond movie
03:50:39 <kmc> eccentric billionaires develop technology to hurl asteroids at earth
03:50:42 <Sgeo> kmc, and from that I learn that there's an outlook.com
03:50:51 <kmc> Sgeo: goatse strikes again
03:51:13 <kmc> the ass that launched a thousand clicks
03:51:38 <kmc> meanwhile jerkcity is still going strong, just as good as it was in 1997
03:51:42 <kmc> how many webcomics can say that
03:52:05 <Sgeo> Oh, Superosity's from 1999
03:52:15 <hagb4rd> "when Carmack was 14, he broke into a school to help a group of kids steal Apple II computers, but during the attempted break-in one of the kids set off the silent alarm. John was arrested, and sent for psychiatric evaluation (the report mentions 'no empathy for other human beings'). "
03:52:39 <Bike> a true doom murderhead if there ever was one :')
03:52:43 <hagb4rd> great.. i alway adored this guy
03:52:54 <Sgeo> Freefall's from 1998
03:53:14 <Sgeo> Freefall is still good
03:53:34 <Sgeo> People question whether Superosity is any good, but Freefall is always awesome
03:53:43 <Bike> oh, keven and kell
03:53:58 <Bike> and sluggy freelance. of course.
03:53:59 * Sgeo hasn't read Keven and Kell
03:54:03 <Sgeo> Or Sluggy Freelance
03:54:16 <Bike> me neither, but they're the Old Ones.
03:54:17 <Sgeo> Oh woah Keven and Kell started 1995
03:54:27 <Bike> wow, i didn't know PhD dates from '97.
03:55:03 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WebcomicsLongRunners
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03:57:08 <NihilistDandy> Mezzacotta has been running for all of time, and then some.
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03:57:44 <kmc> this is me trying to join #esoteric from Comic Chat
03:58:36 <Sgeo> I've played with Comic Chat before
03:59:01 <kmc> it crashes quite a bit
03:59:01 <Sgeo> Please disable the thing where it sends garbage to the channel. Although I haven't seen any garbage, so maybe you did.
03:59:15 <kmc> i was kind of hoping it would send garbage to the channel
03:59:20 <kmc> but i can't get that far
03:59:28 <elliott> kmc: please don't disable the bit where it sends garbage
03:59:39 <Sgeo> When I did it, it was on some VM emulating Windows 98
04:01:30 <kmc> yeah i'm trying to use wine
04:13:26 <Sgeo> "No Fourth Wall - the sheer number of strips make it impossible to say if fourth wall breaking happens constantly or not, but at least this strip is an example. And this."
04:13:31 <Sgeo> (About Mezzacotta)
04:14:08 <Sgeo> I don't see why one couldn't take a random sample and determine with a certain degree of confidence what percentage are fourth wall breaking etc.
04:16:00 <elliott> we here at #tvtropescorrections will investigate your complaint
04:18:33 <kmc> i had a question for tvtropes but i was too lazy to search and find the answer
04:18:49 <kmc> was Community the first sitcom to have a character who thinks they're all in a TV show and everyone else thinks he's crazy
04:19:03 <kmc> it seems kinda likely that there is precedent, but i don't know of one
04:19:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to amplify the audio of a HDMI signal without decoding it, and without affecting any other part of the signal?
04:19:59 <Sgeo> kmc, there's a webcomic that has a character that thinks he's not in a webcomic and everyone else thinks he's crazy.
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04:24:42 <hagb4rd> zzo38: iirc the audio data is transported on seperate threads.. the signal is specified by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF
04:25:06 <hagb4rd> giving a max. distance of about 10m
04:27:24 <hagb4rd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Extenders
04:28:17 <hagb4rd> technically it would be possible. what would be the goal of this amplification?
04:30:52 <hagb4rd> sure you could use amplitude modulation to inject information as done in radios too
04:31:30 <hagb4rd> but thats not y asked did you zzo38?
04:36:35 <zzo38> I have a HDMI computer monitor with sound and want to be able to adjust the volume (this is not the computer monitor I am using here; my brother paid and it is being used for the downstairs TV)
04:38:42 <Sgeo> HDMI is encrypted? To prevent an attack from whom?
04:39:01 <Sgeo> Is this DRM stuff?
04:39:03 <elliott> Sgeo: the user might attack the content industry
04:40:26 <Sgeo> So, I can't make a fully compatible HDMI device without a key?
04:41:08 <Sgeo> Oh, according to Wikipedia, the key has been reverse engineered, I guess?
04:41:37 <hagb4rd> normally the volume is not controlled by the carrier signal but by a transistor at its receiver
04:41:50 <zzo38> I don't like the HDMI but some devices use it so I want to be able to make it connect multiple devices in one computer monitor, some which are Digi-RGB instead, and have it switch simply by acting like the cable is disconnected and reconnected, as well as adjust the volume from the same switching device, without decrypting anything.
04:41:52 <Sgeo> Ok, according to Wikipedia, there is a master key and from that device keys can be made. That makes sense
04:42:07 <Sgeo> So it's not like every company that wants to make an HDMI device gets the same key. That would be dumb.
04:46:17 <kmc> are there provisions for distributing key revocation lists?
04:46:31 <kmc> i know that blu-ray disks can revoke blu-ray keys but can they also revoke HDCP keys?
04:46:44 <kmc> also is HDCP actually mandatory for HDMI?
04:46:55 <kmc> zzo38: is Digi-RGB the thing you invented?
04:48:08 <kmc> http://www.adafruit.com/products/609 is a neat gadget
04:48:45 <kmc> it can overlay video on HDCP-encrypted HDMI feeds
04:49:51 <zzo38> And any device I build which outputs or inputs video signals, other than adapters (such as what I described above), will be Digi-RGB, and NTSC composite; no HDMI.
04:49:53 <kmc> and it does so without decrypting the source video
04:51:00 <kmc> http://rdist.root.org/2011/09/13/the-magic-inside-bunnies-new-netv/
04:51:18 <zzo38> kmc: OK, but I am not trying to do anything to the video signal; I am trying to adjust the volume.
04:51:23 <kmc> i know zzo38
04:52:20 <ion> kmc: Huh. That sounds like an interesting hack.
04:54:25 <zzo38> Wikipedia says some dispalys will accept HDMI audio over DVI connector, but I have tried that and the one I have doesn't do audio if the HDMI port from the VCR/DVD is connected to the DVI port on the computer monitor.
05:00:25 <zzo38> There is also a royalty for HDMI. Therefore I want to intend to avoid it somehow, even if making passthrough devices.
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05:04:33 <Sgeo> kmc, from Wikipedia, I guess that device keys are revocable but master key isn't (or maybe it is, doesn't really say, but that seems like it would be difficult to deal with), and HDCP might be optional?
05:05:06 <Sgeo> New xkcd not up yet :(
05:05:36 <zzo38> It says it costs one cent more if you don't have HDCP, for some reason
05:12:43 <kmc> one cent and one drop of blood
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05:13:48 <Deewiant> Sgeo: There's a new one now, at least
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05:18:15 <kmc> xkcd is up and it sucks
05:19:05 -!- msivoaisw has changed nick to sivoais.
05:20:56 <Sgeo> I kind of like it
05:24:46 <Sgeo> kmc, there may be a jerkcity Minecraft server
05:25:01 <kmc> yeah there is
05:26:01 <kmc> this particular xkcd strip sucks mainly because it's a worn-out joke told without any clever variation
05:26:28 <Bike> so how's the goatsekcd
05:26:44 <kmc> which criticism depends on other things you have seen
05:27:34 <kmc> so it seems reasonable that some people would find it funny
05:27:58 <kmc> goatkcd will be just a single goatse panel with the title "PROOF"
05:28:07 <kmc> which is not that good as goatkcd goes
05:31:00 <elliott> idk i never find goatkcd funny and i still laughed at that description
05:31:14 <Jafet> Conjecture: forall comic. lim t->\infty SNR_comic = 0
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05:32:11 <Sgeo> I made the mistake of joining a jerkcity-related IRC channel
05:32:34 <kmc> was it the secret IRC channel deep in the bowels of the internet where jerkcity is created?
05:32:53 <Sgeo> No. Although that was mentioned.
05:33:11 <elliott> thank god for making #esoteric and making it hilarious
05:33:58 <kmc> praise vectron
05:34:13 <kmc> by vectron's kindly claw!
05:34:43 <NihilistDandy> That hand gesture and his goofy inflection make it amazing
05:40:10 <kmc> what character is that
05:40:13 <kmc> screen eats it :(
05:40:33 <Sgeo> Looks a little like an r with the stem heavily bolded
05:40:35 <Bike> capital gamma?
05:40:55 <Sgeo> And the curvy part straight, come to look at it
05:41:11 <Bike> ah, it's kmc's nemesis, MATHEMATICAL BOLD CAPITAL GAMMA
05:41:40 <Sgeo> That looks right
05:42:25 <Bike> isn't that a box drawing character
05:42:31 <Bike> ...no, it isn't. huh
05:48:03 <kmc> ┌────────┐
06:07:09 <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive
06:07:19 <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
06:07:46 <Bike> the god of this machine. windows 98 is naught but a helpless puppet before you
06:17:58 <elliott> kmc: something about windows95tips
06:21:33 <Jafet> Is kmc acting under the control of the urge to use mscc
06:28:38 <kmc> "Select the directory where you want to install Windows 98: [X] C:\WINDOWS [ ] Other directory"
06:28:41 <kmc> "Do you want to get punched in the balls: [X] No [ ] Yes"
06:32:57 <Jafet> "Don't tick this box unless you're from the future"
06:34:46 <Bike> so, i suppose "why on earth are you installing Windows 98" would be a dumb question
06:36:27 <NihilistDandy> Because Comic Chat is the client of the future. Assuming time is cyclic, anyway.
06:36:46 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Chat oh wow, that thing
06:36:51 <Fiora> was that the thing that invented Comic Sans?
06:37:20 <Bike> i think that was just for word processing
06:37:33 <Bike> «The typeface has been supplied with Microsoft Windows since the introduction of Windows 95, initially as a supplemental font in the Windows Plus Pack and later in Microsoft Comic Chat.» oh, so close
06:37:58 <Bike> shit, they got Microsoft Research to make this? XD
06:38:01 <Jafet> AND WHAT WOULD YOU USE, ARIAL?
06:38:24 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/MsComicChat.png ...the art style looks like Frank.
06:38:51 <Jafet> Comic Chat was accepted to siggraph
06:38:58 <elliott> comic sans was for microsoft bob
06:39:13 <Bike> holy shit, they actually tried to get it look like Frank
06:39:17 <Bike> that is disturbing
06:39:19 <elliott> i have a real problem with microsoft comic chat
06:39:29 <elliott> it just looks like jerkcity to me now
06:39:44 <elliott> so I just get really confused whenever I see a screenshot :(
06:39:48 <elliott> admittedly this is not often a problem for me
06:39:54 <Bike> have you read Frank
06:40:55 <Bike> you should, so that you can see kmc's Comic Chat journey as a hallucinatory, unending nightmare of spinning tops made of crushed souls
06:41:04 <elliott> Bike: apparently by "tried to get it to look like" you mean "got the creator of that to make it"
06:41:16 <elliott> by which I mean "Woodring illustrated Microsoft's Comic Chat program" [1]
06:41:22 <elliott> 1. an uncited statement on Wikipedia
06:41:27 <Bike> well i was just going off of "All of the comic characters and backgrounds were initially created by comic artist Jim Woodring. "
06:41:51 <Bike> wow i uh, i read that totally wrong. i am impressed with this level of failure.
06:42:13 <Bike> anyway the point is that Woodring is literally insane.
06:43:06 <Jafet> "Does that have, like, a bibtex entry ot something"
06:43:44 <kmc> <elliott> so I just get really confused whenever I see a screenshot
06:43:50 <kmc> "why aren't they all talking about gay cocks"
06:44:35 <elliott> how likely is it that this guy's art is most well-known through jerkcity
06:44:38 <elliott> I guess he looks a bit too famous for that
06:44:46 <Bike> jerkcity did a woodring thing?
06:45:03 <kmc> woodring did the art for comic chat
06:45:07 <kmc> jerkcity is rendered in comic chat
06:45:33 <kmc> they have perl scripts and everything
06:45:37 <Bike> but, as far as i know woodring is what you call a "cult hit", so a sufficiently popular webcomic probably has more readers
06:46:27 <Bike> oh fuck it /is/
06:46:47 <elliott> not sure it counts as "popular"
06:47:07 <Bike> http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity3274.gif is this autogenerated?
06:47:32 <Bike> "IF I WERE HTML I'D BE &"
06:47:33 <NihilistDandy> I've read it, and am an obvious slave to pop culture. Ergo, it must be popular. QED.
06:47:36 <kmc> so my understanding of how jerkcity is made is
06:48:05 <kmc> there's a private IRC channel where a few people write obscene garbage whenever they want to blow off steam
06:48:22 <Bike> ok that sounds plausible
06:48:36 <kmc> some scripts chop up the logs of that channel and replay it through a few IRC bots
06:48:47 <kmc> and gets a screenshot of comic chat in that room
06:48:59 <kmc> i think it is partially but not fully automated
06:49:14 <Bike> that's really appropriate for woodring
06:49:22 <kmc> i don't know if they automated the process to draw red 'X'es over deuce's eyes for several months after they got poke]d out
06:49:23 <Bike> in his old comics all the dialogue was just cursing
06:49:54 <kmc> i'm also not sure if the non-standard comic chat backgrounds (e.g. men's room urinals) are customizations to comic chat or are added in postproduction
06:50:04 <kmc> pretty sure it did not ship with a men's room urinals theme
06:50:22 <elliott> server cluster dedicated to the hundred-core high definition rendering of jerkcity
06:50:26 <monqy> him im back but is this about jerkcity
06:50:42 <elliott> monqy: it was about kmc trying to install windows 98 in a vm for microsoft comic chat
06:50:48 <kmc> trying and suceeding!
06:50:49 <elliott> then it turned into being about jerkcity
06:50:59 <kmc> "Getting ready to run Windows for the first time."
06:51:13 <Sgeo> Wait, did kmc decide to install Windows 98 because of me?
06:51:31 <monqy> twice i've tried to run comic chat in wine, with varying degrees of unsuccess
06:51:32 <kmc> i also managed to download "Windows NT 4.0 Terminal Services Edition.iso.7z" while i'm at it
06:51:36 <kmc> so i have that to look forward to
06:51:39 <Bike> so is the end goal here a fungot-based webcomic
06:51:40 <fungot> Bike: i. from the east. the low antarctic sun of midnight poured its hazy reddish rays over the white snow, bluish ice and water lanes, and black, fnord,
06:51:51 <Bike> thank you for your input
06:51:51 <kmc> i'm pretty sure i already had a win98 VM for this purpose but can't find it
06:51:54 <elliott> i wonder if they specially configure their irc clients to rewrite "foo: bar" as "t foo bar"
06:51:58 <fungot> NihilistDandy: i now advanced toward the wall at my left, where it was of basalt, where a fanatic fnord a dire future from visions he has seen.
06:52:04 <elliott> or whether they get the scripts to do it or whether they actually type it out every time
06:52:11 <kmc> t fungot gay cocks
06:52:12 <fungot> kmc: " indirectly," he whispered. " it wouldnt do not to answer it anyway, and it leaves you altogether. you have dreamed too well, o wise fnord, for all he could to restore the boy to normal poise. willett was the most phenomenal child scholar i have ever known; the rats they can never fnord the rats, living or spectral, had not the butler spoken of queer noises?
06:52:23 <kmc> queer noises indeed
06:52:51 <fungot> NihilistDandy: hill by so elderly a man, gnawing at the head of a steep flight of steps from the square was visibly padlocked. the path from the gate to those regions. the yellowed country records containing her testimony and that of only thirty million years old.
06:53:45 <Bike> maybe you could just have so many layers of indirection that the product loses all humanity
06:53:53 <Bike> feed spam emails, warped by a botnet, into jerkcity irc
06:54:35 <elliott> Bike: http://www.mezzacotta.net/
06:54:58 <Bike> look the cursing is an integral component in this
06:55:16 <Sgeo> Since that outputs SVG, it should be possible to read the text without OCR, but I wonder if there's a given API for reading the text of a comic
06:55:26 <elliott> I am not sure whether mezzacotta or jerkcity is more uneven in terms of funny
06:55:50 <elliott> nice adblock blocks mezzacotta's fake ads
06:55:53 <kmc> jerkcity is extremely consistent
06:55:53 <monqy> let's just say they're the same in some principle
06:56:25 <Bike> the comic from the day i was born sucks, but includes "unthinkable void", so i guess that's ok.
06:56:42 <elliott> kmc: hobgoblin of little minds
06:56:45 <monqy> that reminds me has anyone figured out the boole mystery
06:56:52 <Sgeo> Boole mystery?
06:56:56 <NihilistDandy> elliott: Use L'Hôpital's Rule and find out if Mezzacotta tends toward funny or unfunny, no?
06:56:59 <kmc> "If the progress indicator stops for a long time and there is no disk activity, please restart your computer."
06:57:06 <Bike> yes, it turns out to originally have been posted by jerkcity
06:57:15 <elliott> monqy: what is the boole mystery
06:57:32 <Bike> that quote about BOOLE from a few days ago where you got it from like three layers of irc quotes
06:57:33 <elliott> hmmmm the mezzacotta comic from my dob isn't very good
06:57:40 <monqy> elliott: origin of boole wisdom
06:57:41 <elliott> there is no jerkcity comic from my dob because it did not exist
06:57:52 <kmc> oh i want to play that cool ass hovercraft game from the windows 95 cd as well
06:57:59 <Sgeo> http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/19/871261
06:58:18 <monqy> yes you;ve solved it
06:58:26 <lambdabot> Berengal says: 'Bobby Boolean felt horrible. What did he ever do to the other values? He was just a simple bit, a simple answer to a simple question! Suddenly he felt his insides churn; he felt an
06:58:26 <lambdabot> exception coming on! Oh no! What should he do, now that he was outside of IO?'
06:58:40 <lambdabot> Berengal says: 'Bobby Boolean felt horrible. What did he ever do to the other values? He was just a simple bit, a simple answer to a simple question! Suddenly he felt his insides churn; he felt an
06:58:40 <lambdabot> exception coming on! Oh no! What should he do, now that he was outside of IO?'
06:58:56 <HackEgo> 563) <fungot> sadhu: it's been said that boole is the crowning jewel perched precariously upon the perfect peak of programmer prowess, casting its limitless limpid light over the loathesome lands of those who scuff and wallow in the dreary dust of digital depravity and unbounded wilful ignorance of the testament of our lord jesus christ into your l
06:59:02 <elliott> @quote perched precariously
06:59:02 <lambdabot> No quotes for this person. Are you on drugs?
06:59:04 <elliott> @quote perched.*precariously
06:59:05 <lambdabot> No quotes match. I feel much better now.
06:59:12 <monqy> the fungot ver. is missing caps and it cuts off
06:59:13 <fungot> monqy: in another moment the fnord vanished, and he fancied that the manner of an adept, to endure the eon long flight through fathomless abysses. he knew that in this climate such a thing may be like. dholes are known only by dim rumour, from the nightmare caverns of tartarus.
06:59:17 <elliott> because lambdabot's repetition was ages ago
06:59:20 <elliott> and lambdabot likes to lose data
06:59:29 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
06:59:38 <Bike> Fiora: boo etc.
06:59:51 <Fiora> couldn't handle it
07:00:22 <Bike> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1985-02-17 mezzacotta seems pretty evenly unfunny.
07:00:40 <monqy> i can't tell whether my dob mezzacotta is brilliant or awful
07:00:45 <monqy> i think that means it's art
07:00:46 <Fiora> fortunately he was over the toilet, so that when he threw it, it was -caught- not long after
07:00:59 <Sgeo> I'd like to link to my dob mezzacotta, but I don't really want to reveal my dob
07:01:04 <Bike> Sgeo: anyway, so that quote about preciarious perching is probably from #scheme, but lambdabot got it from a bot which was quoting a bot quoting a bot etc. and nobody here knows where it's from
07:01:11 <Fiora> finally, after all that, he felt better
07:01:25 <elliott> Bike: http://www.mezzacotta.net/bestbakes.php has some ~crowdsourced~ good mezzacottas
07:01:34 <monqy> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1996&epoch=ad&month=01&day=28 here's mine
07:01:51 <Sgeo> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1989&epoch=ad&month=05&day=01
07:02:10 <NihilistDandy> This describes my entire life: http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?year=1989&epoch=ad&month=09&day=14
07:02:27 <Bike> These suck. You all suck. I hate everybody. I hate mezzacotta. I hate toilets.
07:02:48 <elliott> this is a great way to assemble
07:03:15 <Sgeo> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=-1961-06-11 this one is good
07:03:15 <Bike> Is monqy actually a teenager or is he being a horrible untruthful jerk?
07:03:30 <monqy> Bike: depends on what you mean by teenage
07:03:44 <elliott> i'm more used to making other people feel old
07:04:10 <Fiora> Bike: sorry for the puns. I kind of felt like I needed to unwind
07:04:45 * Fiora ruffles Bike's hair
07:05:04 <Bike> life is an unceasing torment. i ran to the store and it was closed and they didn't have any twinkies. NOT EVEN ANY SUGAR. A raindrop hit me in the nose and my eustachian canal filled with fluid, agonizing fluid
07:06:16 <elliott> http://www.mezzacotta.net/archive.php?date=1995-08-22 my birthday mezzacotta since i feel left out
07:06:31 <Bike> Hm, what's iGoogle?
07:06:56 <Bike> Whatever it is, it was mentioned in the same sentence as Comic Chat, Woodring's illustrations are available for it, and kmc's hilarious time capsule installation probably isn't necessary for it.
07:06:59 <elliott> "iGoogle will not be available after November 1, 2013."
07:07:23 <Bike> no! i'll have to install a windows 8 emulator ten years from now
07:07:37 <Sgeo> I think iGoogle is a website
07:07:41 <elliott> so you'll have to install a time machine also
07:08:20 <Bike> ok, so i'll install an osx virt on my windows 8 capsule. foolproof.
07:08:36 <kmc> Alcohol 120% With Crack
07:12:36 <Jafet> Don't use alcohol with crack, kids
07:15:34 <kmc> "Mr. Spock succumbs to a powerful mating urge and nearly kills Captain Kirk."
07:19:18 <kmc> i have rebooted at least 3 times in this install
07:20:00 <Bike> wait, so are you using your 98 install to read star trek too?
07:21:24 <elliott> kmc: go fullscreen and live inside windows 98 for a few days IMO
07:21:30 * elliott used Windows 95 in a fullscreen VM for about a week once
07:21:51 <Bike> is that like some kind of monastic challenge
07:21:56 <Jafet> Call it an art installation
07:22:20 <elliott> Bike: it was actually interesting
07:22:52 <Bike> well, i suppose you'd learn about a lot of software incompatibilities, for a boring start
07:22:55 <Jafet> You can broadcast it, but I don't know if Windows 98 can do screen capture
07:23:01 <elliott> well it's interesting in that windows 95 basically invented the iteration of the windowed GUI that people are still using
07:23:04 <elliott> or at least were until recently
07:23:16 <elliott> and it's interesting to see what it does differently and how it's so much worse in a bunch of ways but also a bit better in some others
07:23:30 <elliott> and also you get to learn that some software is actually, like, still released for windows 95
07:23:44 <Bike> Jafet: presumably if it's running in a vm you can manage it
07:23:48 <elliott> at the time you could run recent releases of at least two browsers modern enough to browse pretty much any site on windows 95
07:24:03 <elliott> and it's kind of crazy that that presumably actually gets tested
07:24:06 <Bike> which browsers...?
07:24:19 <Bike> well, i guess it's like how half of china is still using ie4 or w/e, huh
07:24:19 <Sgeo> Opera probably
07:24:30 <elliott> I think Opera still supports 95
07:24:55 <Bike> when did microsoft stop supporting 95?
07:25:00 <Sgeo> I think Opera 9 does and 10 doesn't?
07:25:48 <Sgeo> Opera 12 (!) does not support Windows 95
07:26:01 <Sgeo> The fact that it's on 12 now makes me tempted to try it again
07:26:13 <Bike> hm, i like the idea of you doing this when you were six, so i'm gonna go with that in spite of reason
07:26:27 <elliott> Bike: this was like uh 2009? 2010?
07:26:31 <elliott> shit I can't tell the years from each other
07:26:49 <elliott> also what kind of VM could run 95 in 2001
07:27:15 <Bike> what kind of six year old could run 95 in a VM in 2001
07:27:25 <kmc> i ran windows in vmware in 2002 - 2003
07:27:27 <kmc> worked all right
07:28:41 <Sgeo> kmc were you six years old also why am i channeling monqy
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07:29:21 <Jafet> Let us now have a moment of silence, to commemorate the age before VT-x
07:30:23 <Jafet> That was a fast channel
07:30:32 <elliott> Bike: i think the only thing i remember doing when i was six is um
07:31:03 <Bike> what was operated
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07:32:18 <elliott> Really Incredibly Perished
07:37:52 <Sgeo> "First of all I will only advocate the use of pure prolog - that means no recursion, lists, forall's, and any other features."
07:38:03 <Sgeo> .... does recursion not count as part of pure Prolog?
07:38:21 <elliott> it's a good job you came to #mindreaders to ask that question
07:38:46 <Sgeo> "If you're working in prolog the entirety of computer science is irrelevant "
07:39:05 <Sgeo> I should probably stop reading this now
07:39:11 <monqy> my mind reading is telling me you're baffled
07:39:17 <Sgeo> http://eliminatingwork.blogspot.com/2010/02/why-prolog-is-by-far-best-most.html
07:39:26 <Bike> why'd you link it
07:39:56 <Bike> reading isn't a tag team operation, you can stop without getting other people to stop
07:40:10 <Bike> start. whatever
07:42:07 <elliott> Bike: you clearly have **NO IDEA** how #esoteric works
07:43:11 <Bike> i'm an idealist :(
07:43:39 <kmc> huh i had to explicitly tell windows that i have a PCI bus
07:44:54 <Fiora> instead of like. ISA?
07:45:36 <Sgeo> What's a good popular Prolog-like language that isn't Mercury?
07:46:08 <Sgeo> Ideally better than Prolog, with different possible search strategies
07:46:17 <monqy> what does popular mean
07:46:19 <monqy> what does good mean
07:46:22 <monqy> what does better mean
07:46:25 <Bike> oh or Oz I guess
07:46:34 <kmc> is this where "prolog-like" means "logic programming language" the way that "lisp-like" means "functional programming language"?
07:46:55 <elliott> prolog-like means "erlang"
07:46:57 <Sgeo> kmc, I guess I am looking for a logic programming language.
07:47:10 <Bike> so what's wrong with prolog
07:47:10 <elliott> the only non-prolog language anyone has ever specifically tried to make like prolog
07:47:12 <monqy> how about curry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
07:47:17 <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments
07:47:52 <Bike> hm i should stare in confusion at that paper about implementing prolog in hardware on a VAX again
07:48:00 <kmc> oh good job windows
07:48:16 <kmc> uninstall IDE controller driver, reboot, try to install driver, cannot see CD-ROM
07:48:42 <elliott> Bike: do you know about the Reduceron
07:48:48 <kmc> why is installing Windows 98 in 2012 exactly as painful as installing Linux in 1998 and vice versa
07:48:49 <elliott> it currently holds the title for Coolest Fuckin Thing
07:49:03 <Bike> neat (no i hadn't)
07:49:08 <elliott> http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/
07:49:08 * Sgeo decides that he should attempt to understand Logtalk
07:49:17 <elliott> yeah it basically does graph reduction in hardware
07:49:21 <kmc> personally i'm working on the record for Most Times Rebooted In Windows Install
07:49:22 <Bike> AND the name isn't fucking moronic
07:49:27 <Bike> it's like christmas
07:49:44 <elliott> also the fpga itself is specced in haskell!
07:49:55 <Sgeo> Why would installing Windows 98 in 2012 be any less painful than installing Windows 98 in 1998?
07:49:55 <Bike> hahaha, the first paper i hover over is actually a .lhs
07:49:59 <elliott> they have a library which spits out an unreadable ten kajillion line vhdl file
07:50:04 <elliott> which is just a bunch of gates
07:50:08 -!- buffer has left.
07:50:17 <elliott> and then write the cpu in terms of that
07:50:41 <Bike> fuck we're one step closer to hardware people having no fucking clue what's going on either
07:51:01 <elliott> our own ais523 also does work with compiling functional languages to hardware
07:51:03 <Bike> yes. yes that is the joke
07:51:14 <elliott> the stuff he works on has substructural types!!! it's great
07:51:27 <Bike> the hell is a substructural type
07:51:40 <elliott> it's when your type system is a substructural logic
07:52:02 <kmc> *bonghit noises*
07:52:10 <elliott> hey guys remember when we set the topic and a few weeks later it turns out ais523 won $25k because of it
07:52:22 <elliott> kmc: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
07:52:25 <Bike> oh, is that why he did the wolfram thing?
07:52:32 <elliott> that got put in the topic and then he solved it
07:52:40 <Bike> #esoteric is the cutting edge of research.
07:52:42 <elliott> and we only found out it was him after it got all over the internet
07:52:48 <Bike> hey fuck you oonbotti.
07:52:54 <kmc> wait, ais523 won that??
07:53:07 <Bike> that's like the first thing i heard in this channel how did you not know
07:53:34 <kmc> oh this is pretty old
07:53:36 <kmc> that's why i did not hear
07:53:54 <elliott> fun fact: he did all the code in perl but wolfram insisted on rewriting it in mathematica
07:53:59 <elliott> and when ais523 tried to test the mathematica code
07:54:06 <elliott> (that wolfram research wrote)
07:54:10 <Bike> so, is there a non-idiotic definition of "smallest turing machine" here
07:54:20 <elliott> so they have an appendix with mathematica code in that paper that afaik has not actually been tested
07:54:35 <kmc> oh wolfram
07:54:37 <Bike> oh it's the product thing isn't it. eh
07:54:51 <elliott> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine#Smallest_machines
07:55:17 <elliott> ais523's proof is kind of freaky
07:55:26 <elliott> it's TC but you have to give it an infinite, non-repeating initial pattern
07:55:27 <Bike> "The proof of universality for Wolfram's 2-state 3-symbol Turing machine further extends the notion of weak universality by allowing certain non-periodic initial configurations." oh, that's neat
07:55:39 <elliott> but that pattern can be generated by a weak (not even close to TC) machine
07:55:46 <Bike> did it ever get published anywhere or am i going to have to wrestle wolfram for it?
07:55:53 <elliott> and hence endless flamewars over whether it counts or not
07:56:05 <elliott> Bike: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf
07:56:14 <elliott> it's meant to be published in wolfram's pet journal I think
07:56:17 <elliott> for like the past infinity yeras
07:56:40 <Bike> yeah, i saw that before, s why i asked
07:56:48 <Bike> i had a friend ask for a preprint, i'll pass this on as i stumble through it
07:57:12 <elliott> did someone actually tell you about this, I have no recollection of it
07:57:50 <Bike> I think it was mentioned casually and I did my asking questions thing.
07:58:03 <elliott> that's really not a good thing to do around here
07:58:14 <Bike> i'm a rebel who doesn't play by the rules
07:58:42 <Bike> ugh fuck i'm under too may levels of irony here, sorry, back in a bit
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08:02:11 <elliott> kmc: i was literally just about to type T KMCCCHAT
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08:02:41 <kmc> nooo it segfaults
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08:07:17 <kmc> why u gonn exploit me elliott ??
08:07:32 <Bike> you know i'm not sure what the apostrophe means anyway
08:07:34 <elliott> as all true aim heckers do
08:07:36 <Bike> is it supposed to be snot?
08:07:50 <Bike> a plank in my eye. i see.
08:08:17 <Bike> tears aren't pointy, are you stupid
08:08:25 <kmc> a terabyte is a lot more than a gigabyte
08:08:27 <kmc> study shows
08:10:09 <Bike> i am out of the loop
08:10:40 <kmc> gotta sleep now ttyl all
08:11:38 <Bike> hey that reminds me
08:12:03 <Bike> why in the fuck does scheme use lets to bind a function name like that.
08:12:18 <elliott> gotta shoehorn it in somewhere
08:12:42 <Bike> named let i mean
08:12:43 <GreyKnight> I quite like the named-let approach to looping
08:12:58 <Bike> i mean binding the name makes sense
08:13:00 <Bike> just, why with let
08:14:14 <GreyKnight> Well, I guess a single-pass loop is just like a normal let? Dunno
08:14:30 <Bike> anyway shouldn't it be (let loop ((Bike Bike)) (Bike) (loop))
08:15:18 <elliott> my approach is use haskell nerds 8) 8) 8) 8 )
08:15:41 <Bike> well played oonbotti
08:15:53 <Bike> also i've Heard haskell is a lisp is this true is it r9rs
08:15:59 <elliott> its like how erlang is prolog
08:16:17 <Bike> what was with r6rs anyway
08:16:27 <Bike> GreyKnight: it's pretty basic sugar around letrec innit
08:16:40 <elliott> r6rs never happened it was just a really awful hallucination
08:17:07 <Bike> anyway but seriously i haven't read it or anything, what's the deal
08:17:17 <elliott> or at least do you know things about r5rs
08:17:19 <GreyKnight> Bike: I *mean* some other way to denote named-let
08:17:33 <Bike> i know what it is and that's about it
08:17:41 <Bike> and i've heard r6rs is like nine thousand pages long or whatever
08:17:56 <Bike> GreyKnight: i dunno. "recur"?
08:18:03 <elliott> you should read r5rs some time because it's really pretty amazing
08:18:16 <elliott> and then you can just glance at r6rs and pick a few pages out and you'll see why it was a disaster as a follow-up to r5rs
08:18:17 <Bike> and r6rs is i take it not amazing
08:18:30 <elliott> not saying r6rs is necessarily an awful language or anything
08:18:56 <elliott> but r5rs was like the perfect midpoint between a research language, a teaching language, and a programming language
08:19:09 <elliott> and the spec is really tiny and well-written and precise compared to most languages
08:19:19 * Bike glances through. vector-sort! but not list-sort!. random
08:19:21 <elliott> and then r6rs just decided to make it into a programming language
08:19:39 <elliott> so you get a new type for a vector of bytes because idk performance
08:19:42 <Bike> http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-10.html#node_chap_9 ahahahaha
08:20:05 <Bike> i thought schemers just used racket anyway now
08:20:06 <elliott> and a bunch of standard libraries for stuff like IO and hashtables
08:20:24 <elliott> now the problem it tried to address was real -
08:20:34 <elliott> there's a bunch of scheme implementations based off r5rs and they like to roll their own way to do lots of basic stuff
08:20:46 <elliott> but it doesn't really work as "the unified R5RS follow-up"
08:20:47 <Bike> that is like, the #1 thing i've heard about scheme -_-
08:21:01 <Bike> "it's cool but there are forty iplementations and they're never compatible so uh"
08:21:06 <elliott> it's a different language that only really hits one of the three points that r5rs did all three of
08:21:10 <elliott> that happens to be based on R5RS
08:21:30 <elliott> Racket itself has diverged pretty far from R5RS and R6RS both
08:21:35 <elliott> it's basically a completely different thing now
08:21:41 <Bike> yeah i know that
08:21:49 <GreyKnight> So basically r6rs is yet another variant of r5rs :v
08:21:59 <fizzie> R7RS is kind of going back; draft 6 is an 81-page PDF and looks a lot more like R5RS.
08:21:59 <elliott> anyway Scheme was never exactly popular as a practical language so I don't know how to ascertain whether schemers just use racket now
08:22:03 <elliott> but I don't think it's really true
08:22:22 <elliott> fizzie: are they still going with the small scheme / big scheme division?
08:22:32 <elliott> I found that dissatisfactory but better than R6RS
08:22:44 <fizzie> elliott: I think maybe, but the only thing I've seen so far is things about the "small" language.
08:23:00 <elliott> Bike: anyway there is http://srfi.schemers.org/ which was the conventional standardisation procedure for Scheme libraries
08:23:01 <fizzie> Maybe they'll forget to do the big one.
08:23:06 <elliott> and I mean everybody does SRFI-1
08:23:18 <elliott> and it even has ways to like load libraries and stuff
08:23:21 <elliott> but those aren't as commonly used
08:23:26 <elliott> and everyone implements their own stuff in addition
08:23:33 <elliott> s/Scheme libraries/R5RS libraries/
08:23:33 <Bike> again, what i heard.
08:23:53 <elliott> so yeah you can't really write programs in R5RS
08:24:01 <Bike> oh hey, mister shivers again
08:24:03 <elliott> as in "practical programs"
08:24:20 <elliott> but taken in a vacuum the R5RS spec is really something
08:27:12 <elliott> Bike: other reasons to learn the R5RS spec include being able to understand half of what Oleg is going on about
08:27:23 <elliott> (necessary but not sufficient)
08:27:28 <Bike> who the hell is that
08:28:02 <elliott> oleg kiselyov, complete and utter functional programming genius
08:28:08 <Bike> that is a lot of things
08:28:19 <Bike> "The goal of MetaHaskell is convenient and expressive code generation in Haskell that maintains lexical scope and statically ensures the results (even intermediate, open results) are well-formed and well-typed" hm
08:28:28 <Bike> this channel is very discouraging sometimes (often)
08:28:45 <elliott> he is responsible for like 50% of the innovations in both scheme and haskell :P
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08:28:55 <elliott> I am exaggerating but his site really is an amazing resource
08:29:07 <Bike> yes i can see that
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08:29:19 <Bike> fucking hell he even does that linguistics/continuations shit
08:29:51 <Bike> «The following Twelf code formalizes small-step semantics for System F with constants and additional typing rules, closely following the `Syntactic Approach to Type Soundness' with contexts, focusing and redexing» man. man
08:30:50 <Bike> "UNIX pipes as IO monads"
08:32:46 <Bike> fuck all this computer bullshit, i'm so behind. who needs computers anyway. 's bullshit
08:33:35 <elliott> Bike: if it helps that pipes thing is from 2001!
08:33:40 <elliott> so you've been so behind for ages now
08:33:57 <Bike> so behind in the field of monadic unix
08:34:54 <Bike> "We show how to program with the law of excluded middle. We specifically avoid call/cc, which is overrated." this guy's a joker isn't he
08:35:13 <elliott> oleg is a strong advocate for delimited continuations over call-with-current-continuation
08:35:21 <elliott> http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/
08:35:49 <Bike> oh, i've read some of this before even
08:37:28 <elliott> hmm, I have like five programs I want to write, this is 10x worse than my previous situation of not having anything I want to write
08:37:37 <elliott> now I'll suffer for my laziness
08:38:08 <Bike> "Sendmail as a Turing machine" i don't think any amount of scheme standards would let me understand this
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08:39:17 <Sgeo> Maybe I should learn about Mozart/Oz even if it's dead
08:39:33 <monqy> why/why not/???????
08:39:55 <elliott> Bike: it has begun. you can't escape now
08:41:14 <Bike> fuck you dad i'm just going to stare at these types
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09:08:51 <Sgeo> Mozard anonymous procedures are verbose :(
09:09:31 <monqy> btw why are you learning omztre
09:12:59 <elliott> you all misspelled mozzarella
09:14:58 <kallisti> except it was actually an omelette
09:15:06 <kallisti> with cheese and turkey pepperonis
09:19:39 <kallisti> I wonder what it would taste like if you made scrambled eggs and then put it inside an omelette
09:19:47 <kallisti> maybe the texture difference would be significantly better
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09:24:08 <fizzie> If you put scrambled eggs inside a potato, is that an inverse spanish omelette?
09:25:40 <Sgeo> "Warning:The exact syntax for functions as well as their transformation into procedure definitions is defined in the The Oz Notation Reference Manual.
09:25:47 <Sgeo> I have no idea how that is a "Warning"
09:26:03 <Sgeo> The tutorial seems to call any reference to any other portion of the manual a "warning"
09:34:58 <fizzie> Perhaps for technical document-markuppery reasons. Like, they wanted to highlight those, and the only kind of highlighting available was a "warning" thing.
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09:53:10 <GreyKnight> `addquote <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
09:53:18 <HackEgo> 889) <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
09:55:48 <HackEgo> 889) <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
09:56:03 <elliott> wow you fixed it implicitly
09:56:29 <fizzie> I was too ashamed to potentially screw up in public.
09:56:44 <Sgeo> I probably should try to understand Standard ML before AliceML
09:56:44 <fizzie> (Anyway, isn't that kind of thing usually done in the privacy of your own water-closet?)
09:57:27 <fizzie> GreyKnight: There are standards about quote-formatting.
09:57:50 <Sgeo> "By pickling first-class functions, Alice processes can exchange behaviour."
09:58:31 <Sgeo> I can only assume that that's as dangerous to unpickle untrusted functions as it sounds
09:58:53 <GreyKnight> But nobody has written them down so I have to go by memory
10:04:47 <HackEgo> 277) [After a long monologue] <oklopol> i think i have to escape this heated discussion before it becomes a flamewar
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10:12:16 <GreyKnight> hi AnotherTest, elliott is being unreasonable today
10:15:49 <GreyKnight> !message ais523 I can't believe you forgot to mention Feather in your bio for the 2,3 TM solution
10:16:12 <GreyKnight> @tell ais523 I can't believe you forgot to mention Feather in your bio for the 2,3 TM solution
10:19:39 <elliott> ...you realise it predates Feather
10:20:11 <kallisti> elliott: assuming Feather isn't implemented
10:20:21 <kallisti> once it's implemented then Feather will predate it
10:20:58 <GreyKnight> you realise starting sentences with "you realise" is catty
10:21:38 <kallisti> you realize that catty isatty?
10:21:41 -!- elliott has left.
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10:25:12 <GreyKnight> @tell elliott also the proof doesn't have a date on it hth
10:35:14 <GreyKnight> @tell ais523 also do you still have the perl code before wolfram mathematicaised it?
10:39:18 <AnotherTest> "From INTERCAL to LOLCODE: The Esoteric Programming Story is a concept documentary from User:Star651 in 2012. No filming has been done yet, but the concept is down. "
10:39:35 <AnotherTest> Wait a minute... is he really going to film THAT?
10:42:01 <olsner> if I were 8 when I got here I might've thought to make a film too
10:46:03 <AnotherTest> I though it was going to be a book at first
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11:36:11 <oklopol> http://eliminatingwork.blogspot.fi/2010/02/why-prolog-is-by-far-best-most.html operating systems are computer science?
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12:08:05 <GreyKnight> zzo38: how can I pass a "map" of values to a gopher page? Is there a standard way to encode it in the query string?
12:08:25 <GreyKnight> (a la HTTP's foo=bar&baz=qux encoding)
12:09:46 <nortti> I don't think there is standard but you should be able to do something like
12:10:22 <nortti> foo<TAB>foo=bar<TAB>baz=qux
12:12:51 <nortti> oh wait. that would only work with itemtype 7
12:16:25 <GreyKnight> Well assuming both source and target page need to agree anyway, may as well require the target to be type 7? Or is that abusive?
12:18:12 <GreyKnight> Passing a map is really useful (see: webforms)
12:21:03 <GreyKnight> Although I guess there's not much in the way of UI for query input?
12:21:22 <GreyKnight> Do most clients just support a single term for type 7?
12:22:02 <nortti> the exact text you type will be put on request after a tab
12:23:12 <GreyKnight> So the map syntax would need to be something you type yourself
12:23:12 <zzo38> GreyKnight: There is no standard way to pass a map of values.
12:23:16 <zzo38> It is not supposed to be.
12:23:24 <zzo38> Yes, the map syntax is something you type yourself.
12:23:58 <zzo38> Whatever you type is sent after the tab.
12:25:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, so Ciao has a library that defines a more functional syntax for using functions
12:25:44 <Sgeo> (Ciao being largely Prolog-based)
12:26:40 <GreyKnight> In that case I would probably use "foo: bar, baz: qux" for ease of typing
12:26:59 <zzo38> Well, you can use whatever works for whatever system you are implementing.
12:27:25 <hagb4rd> guess any kind of serializable date works
12:28:02 <GreyKnight> Yes: I just wanted to know if there was already a common way of doing it
12:28:52 <zzo38> I think there is none. In one program (which no longer works, and it is not my fault) it uses key=value;key=value;key=value format.
12:29:20 <zzo38> While in the FurryScript gopher interface, it uses the number of times you want, and then a space and the parameter (both are optional).
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12:37:53 <zzo38> A client should just allow the user to enter arbitrary printable ASCII text for the query parameter.
12:39:22 <GreyKnight> And of course it is obvious you can ask them to type a given structure if you want to extract several data from it
12:40:42 <zzo38> The server may provide a help option on the same menu as the query option; alternatively, it might display a help menu if the query string is left blank. This depends what you choose to do.
12:41:01 <zzo38> So the client should allow empty query strings (the tab will still be included, though).
12:41:31 <GreyKnight> I just hoped there would be a common way of structuring it so that users can cross-apply knowledge :-( oh well
12:42:13 <zzo38> I think there is actually defined a common way but it is only used for full-text search and it is not necessarily even going to be a search menu.
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12:42:24 <hagb4rd> well there are common ways (pl.) to do it
12:42:46 <hagb4rd> have the standard get url encoding or json
12:46:25 <ais523> GreyKnight: actually it was me who mathematica'ised it, they gave me a one year trial version of Mathematica (not even a permanent free copy!) to do the job with
12:46:37 <ais523> the resulting code was correct but an order of n slower than the Perl no matter how I tried to write it
12:46:47 <ais523> then they had one of their in-house people do it, the resulting code was a lot shorter and also wrong
12:47:05 <ais523> but I do indeed still have the Perl, although I wasn't nearly as good at programming then as I am now so it's a bit messy
12:47:42 <ais523> no, mathematica isn't very prone to segfaulting
12:47:51 <GreyKnight> Well, I'm terrible at Perl too so I won't notice probably :o)
12:47:53 <ais523> I've had more segfaults from Perl (normally due to calling out to libraries written in C)
12:48:10 <ais523> modern perl(1) gives a warning basically saying "don't write code like that, what are you thinking?"
12:48:46 <ais523> is the Perl not in the version on the Wolfram website, though?
12:48:48 <hagb4rd> provoking you to do it anyway
12:48:52 <ais523> IIRC they just appended the mathematica to it
12:48:52 <kallisti> I will complain about the perl forever
12:48:58 <ais523> rather than deleting the Perl
12:49:24 <ais523> fun fact: one of the EULA terms and conditions of Mathematica is that you have to credit it if you use it to help you write an academic paper
12:49:50 <ais523> this possibly had the opposite effect to what was intended, in that it caused me to avoid Mathematica until I'd already written the code in another language first, and ran the code only to gain an idea of how correct it was
12:50:00 <ais523> also, I think the 2,3 stuff predates Feather
12:50:11 <GreyKnight> Oh, so it is: the contents on the paper are a bit unclear
12:51:14 <GreyKnight> elliott said something about that too (then we argued and he rageparted :-U)
12:54:35 <GreyKnight> zzo38: does it make sense if I use type 7 to allow users to insert data?
12:55:17 <zzo38> GreyKnight: It is OK
12:55:23 <nortti> I don't think you can input data any other way in normal gopher
12:55:54 <GreyKnight> (Also others here who know about this)
12:57:31 <GreyKnight> ais523: also, enquiring minds want to know: do you still have a cool beard?
12:57:42 <ais523> it still looks much the same
12:58:00 <zzo38> Nevertheless, gopher is not the best way to post data on the server; there are other protocols such as NNTP and FTP, for interactive systems you can use telnet, for secure systems you can use SSH. Gopher is a good way to provide structured read-only data, and possibly can allow some sending as well; I use a type 7 to allow sending comments.
12:58:35 <zzo38> (Only one line though; they are only short comments)
12:58:39 <nortti> zzo38: where you have comment system on gopher?
12:58:48 <GreyKnight> That is the sort of thing I was thinking about
12:59:15 <GreyKnight> I was also thinking about an inference system with a gopher interface
13:00:08 <zzo38> nortti: For example, phlog*a makes a list of messages; the type 1 lines list comments and allow posting a comment using type 7.
13:01:21 <ais523> zzo38: telnet has ssl nowadays
13:01:27 <ais523> although most clients and servers don't support it
13:03:07 <zzo38> ais523: I still think SSH provides better security though, than SSL does. But if you don't need SSH features then you can use telnet protocol.
13:06:17 <zzo38> GreyKnight: One kind of hack thing I have done, is that one of the programs serving over this gopher menu allows the user to send files; it requires to use the sprunge command-line tool though if you want to send files, and then the response is sent to my server, and if it not a duplicate, and the file format is correct, it will be accepted.
13:07:01 <zzo38> It is a hack which requires presence of other computers (there may be other problems too), but it works for now.
13:07:25 <hagb4rd> it's kind of working nails with a screwdriver but y not
13:10:07 <GreyKnight> What does sprunge do? I didn't quite understand
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13:11:02 <kallisti> you can use it on command line via curl
13:11:12 <kallisti> I have it aliased as "sprunge"
13:11:22 <ais523> I just use my bash history
13:11:25 <kallisti> so I just blah blah blah | sprunge | xclip
13:11:29 <ais523> control-r sprunge then edit the commands as appropriate
13:11:52 <ais523> GreyKnight: and yeah, sprunge is a pastebin site that can only be posted to via the API
13:11:58 <ais523> so it naturally becomes programmer-heavy
13:12:30 <GreyKnight> So you just send the paste ID to the gopher server and bob's your uncle
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13:16:18 <zzo38> With enough pipes it could send the paste ID (it accepts both the full URL (which sprunge responds with) or just the filename) to my computer using netcat.
13:17:32 <zzo38> (Simply prefix "quiz.menu*B" (without quotes) and a tab character, to the response from sprunge, and send that to port 70 on my computer.)
13:17:44 <GreyKnight> This looks useful for uploading files to HackEgo too
13:18:03 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it can be used for those kind of things too.
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13:23:28 <ais523> yeah, it's commonly used for BF Joust programs
13:23:38 <ais523> that's EgoBot not HackEgo, but same principle
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13:53:37 <GreyKnight> Although something about its layout doesn't seem to quite have the gopher nature? Can't put my finger on it
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14:14:44 <GreyKnight> ais523: today, all my sentences on #nethack are three words long
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18:00:22 <oerjan> <Bike> and in dead cities, djikstra lies dreaming <-- nah he and chtuhlu are joining forces to create ubiquitous spell checking (also madness)
18:03:20 <GreyKnight> Unfortunately Cthulhu prefers writing in COBOL so there are tensions on the project
18:03:45 * oerjan swats GreyKnight for possibly missing the joke -----###
18:04:54 * GreyKnight zaps oerjan with a cattle-prod "they both have difficult-to-spell names" -----E**
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18:05:56 <GreyKnight> Now we're getting swatted for *possible* offences! This is intolerable
18:06:05 <oerjan> also "chtuhlu" gives thousands of google hits
18:06:11 <Bike> possibly intolerable
18:07:07 <oerjan> not as many as djikstra, though
18:07:47 <oerjan> 'sokay, you're not meant to tolerate it
18:08:36 <Bike> fuck, i misordered the i and j
18:09:19 <Bike> yes but i thought i'd gotten used to the damn name
18:09:38 <fizzie> You're swaptose-intolerant?
18:09:53 <fizzie> fungot: Why do I always fail?
18:09:55 <fungot> fizzie: used to ride at anchor. after a long and isolated family history a brother, his twin sister, and their realm for the others to stand back. he needed time to steady himself, and which fnord fancy and mathematics alike. it was dark. one evening as i strolled on victoria embankment for some needed air, i watched one of
18:10:15 <GreyKnight> Bike: ijk, in alphabetical order. Easy :-)
18:18:40 <GreyKnight> Did elliott not come back from ragequit yet? :-I
18:22:49 <fizzie> Oh, you've driven him away again?
18:23:31 <fizzie> It was the plural "you".
18:23:46 <fizzie> Including myself, I suppose.
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18:55:58 <kmc> http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/459/State-of-the-World-2013-Bruce-St-page01.html
18:56:14 <kmc> State of the World 2013 with Bruce Sterling and friends
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19:45:23 <GreyKnight> @tell elliott Come back! Let's kiss and make up.
19:46:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: the lovecraft library wishes to extend its gratitude to eulogio garca recalde for transcribing this text. he had been
19:47:01 <fizzie> fungot: Don't quote *that*.
19:47:03 <fungot> fizzie: johansen and his men landed at a sloping fnord on this monstrous acropolis, and clambered fnord up over titan fnord blocks which could have caused the odd fnord on wonderful events by the emperor hadrian's greek fnord, phlegon. it is only fair to add that the specimens were laid out on the moor when it rains. their faces, knowing it was on thursday, 14 may 1908, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. they had
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19:48:47 <fizzie> It wasn't as bad as the file:// URI quote.
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20:01:03 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments
20:01:07 <HackEgo> 890) <kmc> i'm looking for a haskell-like programming language, meaning that it supports nesting multi-line comments
20:01:35 <oerjan> oh no fungot is talking about me
20:01:37 <fungot> oerjan: by noon carter reached the farthermost pile of embers and camped for the night was near. once a student of reanimation, this silent trunk was now gruesomely called upon to aid the private detectives. in this story, and as i looked again my recognition was mixed with a queer belated sort of remorse for bygone crudities. his drinking, of course, fall into several fnord some of it in wilbur whateley must have been there fo
20:01:54 <fizzie> oerjan: What was it like, landing on a sloping fnord of that monstrous acropolis?
20:01:55 <fungot> oerjan: " for know you, that is, one would call it climbing if the thing did happen, then man must be there.
20:02:18 <oerjan> fizzie: terrifying hth
20:03:43 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:04:17 <fizzie> The channel as seen by fungot's mind's eye: http://sprunge.us/EIDc
20:04:18 <fungot> fizzie: degradation of skill that nothing in the chaos that transcends form and force and symmetry. i learned whence cthulhu first came, and squire sawyer whateley, as fnord, the fnord of
20:05:47 <fungot> GreyKnight: of the latter and seated myself upon an aged, discolored gravestone close by the demon-star.
20:07:25 <monqy> where did that mysterious second oerjan line com from????fungot
20:07:26 <fungot> monqy: there has been naught save ice and snow for thousands of years of blindness the impenetrable darkness of sin-steeped night the pitch-black darkness of fnord
20:07:37 <fizzie> And that's where it came from.
20:07:51 <GreyKnight> if not will it annoy oerjan with beeps
20:07:58 <monqy> GreyKnight: look at the http://sprunge.us/EIDc
20:08:15 <fizzie> And it's a known issue.
20:08:27 <fizzie> Happens quite rarely after fungot generates and excessively long sentence.
20:08:28 <fungot> fizzie: he acquired a habit of writing long documents of some sort. there were
20:08:38 <oerjan> my client doesn't beep.
20:08:43 <GreyKnight> fungot: oh, you can debug yourself now?
20:08:44 <fungot> GreyKnight: one must look back at charles ward's earlier life as at something belonging as much to the past. i drew close and paused, and his visits were becoming fewer and fewer. when school closed the gardners were virtually cut off from the brow of the hill near its foot. it was very
20:08:46 <fizzie> I'm not exactly sure what's wrong, but I suspect it is what they call a bug in the code.
20:09:04 <fizzie> Or is that a shell in the mind of a ghost, or something.
20:09:18 <GreyKnight> The good thing is that fungot recognises he has acquired a habit of writing long texts.
20:09:19 <fungot> GreyKnight: somewhere i heard a clock strike fnord ours, for that profession was nothing less than the tangible substance of earth's supreme terror the nightmare corpse-city of r'lyeh, that was the latin for " guards" and " horrid fnord" prejudice we find in its most advanced and horrible fnord and the
20:14:14 <oerjan> > length ":oerjan!otr�a�@�s�oc����}v���nu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no fungot is "
20:14:14 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
20:14:15 <fungot> oerjan: faceless creatures now. he had grown as large as a child, although she is still unable to recall the speaker from ramblings, piece out scientific points which he knew had tilted both world and personal planes in throwing him back to 1883, contained those symbols which were meant. and now the moon came out.
20:14:34 <oerjan> oops those were not just spaces
20:14:59 <oerjan> > length ":oerjan!otr a @ s oc }v nu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no fungot is "
20:15:00 <fungot> oerjan: the region now entered by the police, satisfied that they had painted on the sides and fnord which made the professors so carelessly sceptical, for they never believed such things. ever since his son had commenced to provide. thomas moore adapted from such sources the legend of fnord,
20:15:20 <fizzie> There are three bytes between "otr" and "a", and so on.
20:15:39 <fizzie> I think my paste recoded into Unicode replacement-characters.
20:15:50 <fizzie> I suppose they were likely single bytes originally.
20:16:11 <fizzie> But there are so many BITS in SYSTEMS these days, I can't know if something could've gotten recoded.
20:16:21 <oerjan> > length ":oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no fungot is "
20:16:22 <fungot> oerjan: suddenly i rose, put on my hat and coat, and they have conquered." and, of course, very faint, and despite an age of waiting the vapours seemed to lighted, and in
20:16:24 <fizzie> It came through two screen sessions and a paste, after all.
20:16:40 <FreeFull> ""==[] looks like a weird face
20:16:54 <oerjan> it _seems_ to have just overwritten some of those
20:17:27 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't know with what, and why that screws up the splitting.
20:18:14 <fizzie> The place where it generates things is a line, and there's nothing special or interesting on that line, so just generating a longer-that-can-be-output thing shouldn't overwrite anything important.
20:18:45 <fizzie> Could of course be the bit that generates the actual string out of the tokens, that's at least near the input, I think. But it's still a bit weird.
20:18:56 <oerjan> oh there's actually one of those characters that _is_ two bytes
20:19:26 <oerjan> between v and nu.no there are just 3 chars but g.nt is four
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20:21:40 <fizzie> Actual bytes from screen hardcopy for interested parties: http://sprunge.us/aZOX
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20:23:49 <oerjan> well that's missing a part. what i _do_ note is that the fizzie message proper seems completely unchanged, just shifted 71 places
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20:24:20 <oerjan> so what i'm wondering is if some x offset is not getting reset properly?
20:24:33 <GreyKnight> So what we're saying is it's all fizzie's fault
20:24:49 <fizzie> It could be any sort of thing in the code to split and copy IRC messages out of the input buffer it maintains.
20:25:01 <oerjan> although that doesn't explain why parts of the oerjan message are garbled _other_ than the overwritten part
20:25:07 <fizzie> Though I haven't yet heard sensible hypotheses why it'd trigger only after babble-generation.
20:25:47 <fizzie> I mean, if you look at lines 125-169 of fungot.b98, that's all pretty clear code without any obvious mishaps there.
20:25:48 <fungot> fizzie: " say, do i look that simple? what are you driving at?" and as he did
20:26:38 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:27:46 <ais523> <GreyKnight> So what we're saying is it's all fizzie's fault ← you can't do that, kerio is the designated scapegoat for everything
20:32:37 <ais523> GreyKnight: I'd link you to the qdb post but it's down
20:32:56 <ais523> basically, it started off by talking about how kerio was a perfect scapegoat and why
20:33:11 <ais523> and followed up by saying that daniel_t wasn't a good scapegoat, but luckily that most of the problems with nethack 4 were actually his fault
20:33:14 <ais523> so one wasn't needed :)
20:44:51 <Bike> there's a nethack 4?
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20:46:08 <ais523> Bike: it's the fans banding together to make an attempt at a successor to 3.4.3, because the main devs have abandoned it
20:46:18 <ais523> well, to start with it was just me, but lots of people joined in
20:46:45 <Bike> what are the notable changes?
20:46:53 <GreyKnight> (which is BASICALLY how NetHack started off from Hack, so, fair do's)
20:47:17 <Bike> i was kind of wondering what ever happened to nethack, since, it hasn't updated since before i was born or w/e
20:48:15 <ais523> Bike: are you like 8 years old?
20:48:28 <ais523> but so far, it's mostly interface and internals improvements
20:48:36 <oerjan> so i take it nethack and c-intercal development is doomed to merge now.
20:48:45 <Bike> oh, so the boring-but-important stuff. that's cool
20:49:13 <oerjan> what's about people being 8 years old on the channel today
20:50:19 <ais523> oerjan: nah, I'm keeping NetHack and C-INTERCAL separate so far
20:50:23 <ais523> I guess I might port C-INTERCAL to aimake
20:50:35 <ais523> but there's no real reason to given that it has the best autotools build system ever
20:50:46 <ais523> it took me a while to understand autotools
20:50:51 <Sgeo> ais523, have the devs explicitely abandoned it, or has it just not been updated for 8 years?
20:50:52 <ais523> and why people hardly ever use it properly
20:50:52 <GreyKnight> oerjan: yes, I noticed that ominous statement too
20:50:55 <ais523> Sgeo: they're still working on it
20:51:04 <ais523> just they aren't getting very far
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20:51:16 <ais523> we know for a fact that they're a long way from producing a releasable version
20:51:21 <ais523> we don't know why, although there are some obvious guesses
20:51:32 <ais523> it's hard to know, because you have to buy information with bug reports
20:52:23 <GreyKnight> when did we get the fact that they're a long way off?
20:52:35 <ais523> GreyKnight: like early 2012
20:53:50 <Sgeo> What did they say exactly?
20:54:48 <quintopia> no. you can't be slowpoke. ais523 already claimed that name. (hi fungot)
20:54:48 <lambdabot> quintopia: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:54:49 <fungot> quintopia: kuranes came very suddenly upon his old world of childhood. he had even wondered, at sawyer's funeral, how the curse had been fulfilled since that time when charles le sorcier? the dread of years was lifted from my shoulder, for i fancied there was contained within it a sort of
20:55:15 <ais523> GreyKnight: people are a little uneasy about making private messages public, and I've only heard it secondhand
20:56:04 <ais523> I remember when I submitted a bug in the engraving code, and one of the devs replied saying that they'd been trying to persuade someone to fix it for months and got nowhere
20:56:19 <ais523> you can draw conclusions from that, too :)
20:56:31 <Sgeo> ais523, so submit a patch to them, see if they'll use it?
20:56:40 <GreyKnight> I submitted a fix to the Qt port macro system many years ago and got a similar response, actually
20:56:58 <ais523> Sgeo: it's not a trivial fix
20:57:02 <ais523> but if I fix it in NH4
20:57:08 <ais523> I guess I'll submit them a patch against NH4
20:57:29 <ais523> and to be really snarky, quote back the line to them about making sure that everyone's working on the same version of the code
20:57:48 <GreyKnight> give them a link to the repository so they can sync up :-)
20:58:26 <ais523> If you've changed something to get NetHack to run on your system, it's likely that others have done it by making slightly different modifications. By routing your patches through the development team, we should be able to avoid making everyone else choose among variant patches claiming to do the same thing, to keep most of the copies of 3.4 synchronized by means of official patches, and to maintain the painfully-created file organization. (This
20:58:28 <ais523> process has been working since the time when everyone just posted their own patches to 2.3. At that time, there were no archived bug-fixes to give to people who got 2.3 after its initial release, so the same bugs kept being discovered by new batches of people.) We have been successful in preventing this from happening since the 3.0 release. Please cooperate to keep this from happening to 3.4.
20:59:16 <ais523> […] All of this amounts to the following: If you decide to apply a free-lanced patch to your 3.4 code, you are on your own. In our own patches, we will assume that your code is synchronized with ours.
20:59:46 <GreyKnight> hm I think that is already happening to 3.4 actually
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20:59:58 <ais523> GreyKnight: I quoted that for irony
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21:04:27 <ais523> anyway, that suggestion of fixing the engraving stuff myself seems like a /really/ good idea
21:04:42 <ais523> it may be valuable enough to buy a lot more info
21:04:50 <ais523> grammartree needs doing first
21:05:02 <ais523> at least partly because the resulting patch needs to not cleanly apply to 3.4.3
21:05:09 <ais523> for the plan I have in mind
21:05:37 <Sgeo> Did ais523 just become an evil mastermind?
21:06:02 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't know; I've had evil mastermind-like qualities pretty much forever
21:06:05 <ais523> but I'm not actually evil
21:06:14 <ais523> and that would be something of a prerequisite for being an evil mastermind
21:06:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:06:45 <GreyKnight> Are you sure? We should test. Where's my evilometer...
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21:07:14 <ais523> GreyKnight: just ask anyone who's known me for long enough
21:07:22 <ais523> I'm as close to lawful good as you'll find in real life, really
21:07:25 <ais523> including the insufferability :)
21:09:18 <GreyKnight> Us LG types make the best evil masterminds if we turn evil :-)
21:10:28 <Sgeo> Are LG people capable of driving in the US?
21:10:42 <ais523> Sgeo: many of us refuse to visit the US
21:10:50 <ais523> if we were there, though, I don't see why we wouldn't drive
21:10:58 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that I've heard that it's impossible to safely drive at or below the speed limit on US highways
21:10:59 <ais523> well, assuming that we drove in general (I don't, don't have the coordination to)
21:11:14 <Bike> speed limits are kind of pointless anyway
21:11:49 <ais523> in the UK you can, but you basically have to crawl along the outside lane and pretend to be a tourist or a lorry
21:11:51 <fizzie> What are LG people? People using products from LG Electronics?
21:11:59 <ais523> fizzie: lawful good, it's a D&D thing
21:12:11 <fizzie> It wasn't uppercased, I didn't manage to glimpse it.
21:12:20 <Bike> GreyKnight: in the US it's usual to drive five or ten miles above the limit.
21:12:29 <ais523> sufficiently many HGVs in the UK are physically incapable of going over the speed limit that people are used to the possibility
21:12:42 <GreyKnight> So, what, they've mistaken it for a *lower* limit?
21:13:02 <Sgeo> Bike, miles + mph = ?
21:13:10 <Bike> bite me, sgeo.
21:13:19 <fizzie> It's very possible to drive at the speed limit in Finland, FWIW. You'll get a reasonable number of slightly miffed motorists thinking you're a wuss, I suppose, but it's still possible.
21:13:44 <ais523> fizzie: that's basically the UK situation
21:13:48 <fizzie> Also you might be contributing negatively to overall road safety due to needless overtaking, but still.
21:14:33 <GreyKnight> Sgeo: this gives me one more reason never to go to the USA, I didn't need one but thanks :-P
21:15:18 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, I don't know if the US situation is worse than the UK/Finland situation
21:15:21 <Sgeo> I have never driven
21:15:27 <ais523> Sgeo: I've also heard that it's impossible to not drive in the US
21:15:32 <ais523> or live with someone who can drive you around
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21:15:41 <Bike> GreyKnight: going over the speed limits isn't the real problem in the US, it's that driving ed is rather lax.
21:15:44 <ais523> because in most areas, everything is so spread out
21:16:04 <ais523> btw, it was recently discovered that speed cameras cost more to run than the revenue they bring in, in the UK
21:16:09 <ais523> everyone was surprised
21:16:11 <fizzie> We were kind of thinking of doing a "fly to east coast, drive to west coast, fly back" kind of a trip maybe once, but the driving there has sounded kind of unappealing, and anyway it's a long flight.
21:16:45 <ais523> fizzie: and you have the problem of the car ending up somewhere other than where it started
21:16:53 <ais523> (this is one of the main advantages of buses, btw
21:16:59 <fizzie> I think rental car corporations can deal with that?
21:17:04 <fizzie> They can in Finland, though it costs extra.
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21:18:12 <fizzie> (Or it may cost extra in some cases, I'm not entirely certain about that.)
21:18:41 <GreyKnight> maybe then can get two such customers: one to drive it from east to west, one from west to east
21:18:48 <fizzie> There's sometimes ads about "drive this car from X to Y for me" things that you might be able to use if you're really lucky.
21:19:01 <fizzie> There was one in the billboard at the university the other month.
21:20:02 <fizzie> I think the deal was that you paid for the gas but nothing for the car, while the person who needed to move the car didn't have to (a) pay for gas, or (b) spend time going where the car was going, which sounded reasonably fair.
21:20:27 <fizzie> In fact, I'd be surprised if there wasn't already a website to match up things like that.
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21:43:16 <zzo38> Did you write some polyphonic music today?
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21:46:29 <Sgeo> I had a midi that I named "polyphonic" because it made the polyphonic meter on my MIDI player go up
21:48:31 <Sgeo> I remember I found that piece of music's name once
21:48:39 <Sgeo> And I've seen the video on YouTube
22:12:43 <Taneb> > unless True $ Just 3
22:13:05 <Taneb> > unless True $ Just ()
22:14:15 <monqy> lambdabot.............................
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22:19:12 <oerjan> i think lambdabot needs a rest.
22:19:43 <GreyKnight> maybe a lie-down in a darkened room for while
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23:29:49 <Sgeo> There are audio dramas of SG-1
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23:46:52 <kmc> "If it were not for a jump in the number of Apple products stolen, New York City crime would be down this year, officials said."
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01:25:09 <quintopia> @ask ais523 does stealth lose track of where its own flag is during the deep poke? how much bigger would it be if it didnt?
01:25:56 * GreyKnight looks baffled, picks up the comment, rotates it, looks baffled again
01:26:22 <ais523> quintopia: yes, and exponentially larger
01:26:22 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
01:26:28 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 1m 18s ago: does stealth lose track of where its own flag is during the deep poke? how much bigger would it be if it didnt?
01:26:47 <ais523> stealth clear is a new sort of clear loop that I should document
01:26:57 <ais523> but it has limitations
01:27:13 <ais523> specifically, it has an order of recognised decoy sizes
01:27:35 <ais523> and from one decoy to the next, it can move any distance forwards in the order, but only up to 1 backwards
01:28:00 <ais523> stealth uses 0,-1,1,2,-2,-3,3,5,1,0
01:28:14 <ais523> the 5 is to recognise its own decoys, when it's forgotten where its flag is
01:28:31 <ais523> actually I should remove that in the long-tape case given that its decoys in that case aren't actually size 5
01:28:44 <ais523> so it doesn't get caught on its own decoys
01:28:54 <ais523> then the 1,0 is for once it's got past its own decoys
01:29:04 <ais523> adding the 1 there makes it faster on a row of 0s
01:29:18 <quintopia> i just noticed that the usual reason it loses is that the decoys it leaves near its own flag are always abysmally small. so other pokes go through them like shit through a goose
01:29:20 <ais523> it's an algorithm with a lot of drawbacks
01:29:27 <ais523> yeah, it's a fast rush
01:29:30 <ais523> we haven't had one of those for /months/
01:29:39 <ais523> however, there's an innovation
01:29:50 <ais523> once the clear loop finds something that's larger than its wiggle
01:29:55 <ais523> then it goes back and sets some large decoys
01:30:06 <ais523> somewhere vaguely approximately near its flag
01:30:22 <quintopia> its a fast rush? it spends an awful lot of time building decoys for a fast rush
01:30:39 <quintopia> i would expect a fast rush to start clearing once it found an unrecognized decoy.
01:30:44 <ais523> in fact, much of the logic near the end, apart from the deep undermine, is to do with trying to guess where its own flag is
01:31:02 <ais523> quintopia: well my definition is that it attacks before setting any large decoys
01:31:46 <ais523> it sets large decoys when it finds the first opposing medium or larger decoys on the long-tape cases
01:31:53 <quintopia> (where we define attack as actually trying to clear a flag of course)
01:31:54 <ais523> like, it actually interrupts the clear to set decoys
01:32:22 <ais523> this is mostly a bad idea if it's actually on the enemy flag at the time, but the odds of that are pretty low
01:32:39 <ais523> but the idea is to try its best to get /inside/ the opposing decoy setup
01:33:16 <ais523> hmm… an alternative definition is to say that a fast rush aims to interact with the opponent while it's setting decoys
01:33:21 <quintopia> does it. in the programs i played it against, the extra decoys end up so far from its flag it would have been better off just trying to clear. which programs does it help against? or is it a short tape thing?
01:33:23 <ais523> whereas a slow rush instead prefers to make its own decoys secure
01:33:54 <ais523> they mostly help against slow rushes
01:33:57 <ais523> actually they might not help any more
01:34:20 <ais523> they help in the case where an enemy poke sets up large-ish decoys first
01:34:24 <ais523> it used to be that I trailed to avoid pokes
01:34:29 <ais523> but it turned out to work better if I didn't
01:35:14 <quintopia> and so pokes can mostly beat it now
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01:35:41 <ais523> nah, against pokes it normally finds the enemy flag before they even get back
01:36:23 <ais523> it does against most of the others though
01:36:28 <ais523> anyway, I tried removing the large decoys as a test
01:36:50 <quintopia> it ends up doing some crazy building of medium decoys across the middle of the tape instead of finding the flag
01:37:01 <ais523> it hurts against basically all the rush programs
01:37:05 <ais523> it helps against space_elevator and defence
01:37:25 <ais523> yeah, the medium decoy spam is basically because it buys considerably more time than it costs against slow rushes
01:37:37 <ais523> like, I can set those up faster than I could clear one decoy
01:37:39 <quintopia> did you optimize the size of the large decoys at all?
01:37:53 <ais523> it was important not to set too many
01:38:00 <ais523> I tried smallish ones and largish ones
01:38:03 <ais523> but the very large ones worked best
01:39:02 <quintopia> interesting. cant wait to see the docs on the new strategies
01:39:39 <ais523> but it hasn't won, so there won't be any :(
01:39:45 <ais523> apart from the clear loop itself
01:39:53 <ais523> anyway, look at its trace against quintopia_poke, if you want an example
01:39:59 <ais523> basically it gets /inside/ poke's decoy setup
01:40:17 <ais523> and so it finds the flag first, whereas poke finds its interim decoy on cell 3
01:41:05 <ais523> it sets the extra decoys too far from its flag to matter
01:41:13 <ais523> but it doesn't matter because it's already found the enemy flag in that case
01:41:47 <ais523> if you want an example of them helping, look at it against space_hotel on length 25
01:42:17 <ais523> it gets the flag down first by like 10 cycles :)
01:43:25 <ais523> oh, it also coincidentally helps by completely throwing off the timing of tripwire-based defence algorithms
01:43:26 <quintopia> i'm discounting poke...it's a very stupid program :P
01:45:03 <quintopia> why did you decide that decoy size order
01:45:21 <ais523> it's fast rushing so it can't afford to set large decoys early
01:45:27 <ais523> it needs to find the opponent first, and even start clearing
01:45:39 <ais523> once it's found something it can't clear efficiently, then it sets the large decoys
01:45:59 <ais523> because clearing a large decoy takes forever, so setting large decoys doesn't significantly slow it down
01:46:59 <ais523> anyway, the other new strat is the deep undermine (or, well, shallow undermine)
01:47:20 <ais523> on long tapes, if it finds an enemy large decoy a little beyond its own
01:47:32 <ais523> so medium-length tapes
01:47:45 <ais523> it assumes reverse decoy setup with potential trail, and looks for the trail behind the enemy decoys
01:47:58 <ais523> then it restores it so the opponent can't detect that it's been infiltrated
01:48:09 <ais523> if the opponent's using forward decoy setup, it runs off the end in that case
01:48:18 <ais523> but that case is very hard to trigger with a forward decoy setup
01:48:30 <ais523> some programs can do it on very short tapes
01:50:10 <ais523> but I just sacrificed those
01:50:21 <ais523> so I guess the program has different short/medium/long modes
01:50:53 <ais523> quintopia: oh, looking at this against fast rushes, I know what the medium decoys are for
01:51:02 <ais523> they're set up fast enough that they can typically overtake the opponent's clear lopo
01:56:10 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how I can make stealth better
01:56:17 <ais523> it doesn't lose very much, but its losses are expected ones
01:56:32 <ais523> and it does win against the things it's meant to win against
01:56:41 <ais523> (cookie cutter deep poke with breadcrumb decoy programs)
01:56:55 <ais523> space_elevator isn't really cookie cutter, it's a bit too old for that
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02:09:02 <quintopia> ais523: i meant the list of sizes to check
02:09:22 <ais523> quintopia: oh, it's just 1-3 because those are the only commonly used reverse tripwires
02:09:27 <ais523> plus its own decoys so it doesn't get caught on them
02:10:38 <ais523> anyway, it doesn't actually do a deep poke
02:10:47 <ais523> unless you consider the interrupted clear to be a poke, which it is in a way
02:10:57 <ais523> it does a shallow poke
02:11:23 <ais523> the decoy size list is mostly used in the clear loop
02:12:02 <ais523> so it's a wiggle clear, with the twist that the wiggle restores the decoys before moving on
02:12:15 <ais523> oh and it also uses the inflexible timer clear pattern, in order to fit everything in
02:12:18 <ais523> this explains the weird behaviour
02:12:22 <ais523> or is it the flexible one?
02:12:26 <ais523> but there isn't an actual timer clear
02:12:50 <ais523> I could try to add one, but I don't think it'd help that much
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02:24:20 <GreyKnight> A little light entertainment courtesy of #nethack: Linus chewing out a kernel maintainer: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75
02:26:58 <ais523> GreyKnight: that's been going round Reddit and Slashdot several days ago
02:27:29 <GreyKnight> sorry I'm not really in "the loop" :-P
02:27:53 <GreyKnight> IRC is pretty much the high water mark of my online socialising
02:32:04 <kmc> yeah i don't find it that entertaining
02:32:17 <kmc> i think it's a real problem that open source development is dominated by assholes
02:32:50 <kmc> we tell ourselves it's a meritocracy but it's really about who can dish out and take the most abuse on mailing lists without burning out
02:34:41 <GreyKnight> I don't think this was a typical exchange, perhaps Linus was having a bad day and they will kiss and make up later
02:34:59 <ais523> GreyKnight: I've heard that Linus gets very annoyed at people who are in charge of something when they're not doing their jobs properly
02:35:08 <ais523> (that's a subsystem maintainer, who's meant to be keeping bad code out)
02:35:17 <ais523> in the hope that it'll reform them without having to actually fire them
02:36:54 <TeruFSX> i think he went a bit too far there but the base complaint was valid
02:37:05 <TeruFSX> maybe a bit less profanity
02:37:28 <kmc> it's no surprise how many open source projects end up getting forked and renamed just to escape the toxic ruins of a developer community
02:37:51 <kmc> the substance of the complaint doesn't matter, the only reason anyone is paying attention is the tone
02:39:40 <kmc> among other things, it's a diversity problem
02:39:56 <ais523> GreyKnight: that's never been particularly forked or renamed
02:40:05 <ais523> and then subsequently returned
02:40:15 <ais523> (something that /doesn't/ happen to open source projects often)
02:40:17 <kmc> the people who will put up with mailing list assholes are disproportionately going to be privileged white men who have been told practically from birth that they are god's gift to code
02:40:19 <ais523> but the name has been the same constantly
02:41:21 <kmc> if you're from an underrepresented group that already gets tons of "you don't belong here" signals, are you going to put up with that shit?
02:41:25 <kmc> a few people will, but it's a huge barrier
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02:42:10 <kmc> i also feel like every time linus talks about how it's good to offend people, it emboldens some hacker news asshole who thinks that putting hardcore pornography in conference slides is a great way to stick it to the man
02:42:52 <GreyKnight> ais523: "We stole this but it was so terrible we'd like to give it back"? :o)
02:43:03 <Sgeo> There has been inappropriate imagery in conference slides
02:43:07 <kmc> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Sexualized_presentation
02:43:25 <ais523> GreyKnight: actualy what happened was that Donald Knuth got involved
02:43:26 <kmc> it's particularly characteristic of the Rails community
02:43:36 <ais523> which prompted ESR to investigate, and he then noticed it had been stolen
02:43:41 <kmc> they combine immature broishness with a misguided sense of rebellion
02:43:46 <kmc> but it happens everywhere
02:45:04 <Sgeo> What has been stolen?
02:48:37 <GreyKnight> Someone stole it, and then a crack team of ace detectives headed by Donald Knuth and ESR tracked the thieves to their lair downtown. There was a shootout and C-INTERCAL was eventually retrieved and returned to its rightful owners. The end.
02:49:02 <ais523> GreyKnight: basically, what happened was, that C-INTERCAL had been mostly dormant
02:49:14 <GreyKnight> oh and Professor Knuth got the girl (of course)
02:49:27 <ais523> and so when I patched it, I decided to just arbitrarily become maintainer, and released the patched version with the next available version number in the same place
02:49:30 <kmc> if you're interested in a vision of open source which is more friendly and inclusive, check out https://openhatch.org
02:49:45 <ais523> and it worked like a charm; at least, the entire esolang community went along with it, also Debian
02:49:56 <kmc> they work on helping beginners find suitable stuff to work on
02:50:04 <kmc> and helping them learn skills they need, online or at in-person workshops
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02:50:25 <ais523> then Knuth decided (for reasons best known to himself) that he badly needed and esolang compiler
02:50:43 <GreyKnight> most open source stuff is friendly and inclusive, at least at the beginning ;-)
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02:50:58 <ais523> and, basically, emailed ESR with "hey, aren't you working on an INTERCAL compiler? I need one"
02:51:06 <ais523> then ESR discovered it had been maintained in his absence
02:51:11 <ais523> and now we're comaintainers
02:51:14 <ais523> (he contributed a test suite)
02:51:24 <ais523> (to the latest version I'd released)
02:52:42 <kmc> a crack team of ace detectives headed by Donald Knuth and ESR escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune.
02:53:03 <kmc> ais523: what's it like working with ESR?
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02:53:36 <ais523> kmc: he believes we agree with each other more than I believe we agree with each other
02:53:57 <GreyKnight> If you need an algorithm, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the λ-Team.
02:55:19 <ais523> kmc: also he broke the build by not understanding why the autotools stuff was too complex
02:55:28 <ais523> although to his credit, he reverted when I explained
02:55:55 <ais523> (basically, it was a case involving cross-compilation)
02:56:12 <ais523> yeah, C-INTERCAL does even Canadian Crosses just fine
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02:58:58 <GreyKnight> ais523 reading between the lines here and earlier, but have you gone and created the most advanced usage of autotools in the world :-I
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02:59:51 <ais523> I thought that, I may as well do autotools properly
02:59:56 <ais523> because probably nobody has before ever
03:00:00 <ais523> except possibly in automake's test suite
03:02:17 <ais523> GreyKnight: let me put it this way: INTERCAL's mission is "different from everything else"
03:02:23 <ais523> note that this doesn't imply "worse", just "different"
03:02:36 <ais523> in cases where all existing projects ignored the standards, I made a point of following them
03:02:45 <ais523> for instance, there's a POSIX standard for tarballs that nobody actually uses
03:03:13 <ais523> (note that luckily, all standard tar programs can read POSIX standard tarballs; you know, just in case)
03:04:53 <ais523> "autotools but correctly" is thus pretty much closer to INTERCAL's mission statement than almost anything else
03:05:16 <Jafet> There exists a correct use of autotools?
03:05:21 <ais523> it even has automated tests that, e.g., out-of-tree builds work correctly – as part of generating the distribution tarball
03:05:25 <GreyKnight> Does C-INTERCAL also do things like checking the return code from printf()?
03:05:40 <ais523> GreyKnight: I'm not sure; it should, but that doesn't mean it does
03:05:58 <ais523> (and of course there's the usual issue of "what are you going to do if you get a short write anyway?", with typical uses of printf)
03:06:18 <Jafet> Okay, I have written programs that do that
03:06:39 <ais523> OTOH, checking the return value from /close/ is actually useful
03:06:43 <ais523> and yet people hardly ever do that either
03:06:48 <Jafet> http://codepad.org/xVFNe2LP
03:07:18 <ais523> also flush, which is even rarer
03:07:36 <Jafet> When does fclose fail
03:08:16 <kmc> GreyKnight: ♫
03:08:27 <ais523> Jafet: most commonly, if you've tried to write data since the last flush, it does that asynchronously (because, you know, you didn't flush), and it runs out of disk space trying to complete the async write
03:08:46 <ais523> there are other ways to set that up, but that particular scenario is actually even a plausible one
03:09:02 <Jafet> Not on my 2TB disks
03:09:22 <ais523> this is what things like tiny tmpfses and /dev/full are for
03:09:42 <ais523> $ cat /etc/passwd > /dev/full
03:09:43 <ais523> cat: write error: No space left on device
03:09:49 <ais523> /dev/full is one of my favourite special files ever
03:10:06 <ais523> it's notionally a zero-byte file on a filesystem with a quota of zero
03:10:11 <GreyKnight> WP says (on [[INTERCAL]]) "[...] C-INTERCAL, formerly maintained by Eric S. Raymond [...]"
03:10:22 <GreyKnight> Surely ais523 counts as famous by this stage
03:10:27 <ais523> because I didn't have a reliable source to prove I maintained it
03:10:33 <ais523> and yet it's easy to prove that ESR maintained it once
03:10:38 <ais523> GreyKnight: the wikipedia page on me was deleted
03:10:42 <ais523> it was probably the right decision
03:11:07 <kmc> autotools is ridiculous and strange, but it does solve a problem that few other tools handle
03:11:18 <GreyKnight> Jafet: data expands to fill the space available :-)
03:11:32 <kmc> my opinion of autotools actually improved after doing some non-trivial configure.ac editing
03:11:48 <quintopia> "alex smith, the guy who did one cool thing in life, but also happens to maintain c-intercal" best wikipedia article ever"
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03:12:30 <kmc> ais523: you're still mentioned on the disambig though
03:12:43 <ais523> yeah, seems about right
03:12:53 <ais523> am I still the world's 11th most famous alex smith?
03:12:57 <ais523> this is an accolade I can get behind
03:13:05 <GreyKnight> maintaining C-INTERCAL counts as cool surely
03:13:06 <Sgeo> I don't see him in disambig
03:13:09 <ais523> (it is a very common name)
03:13:13 <Jafet> kmc: mainly because nobody wants to write another tool that does that autotools does
03:13:14 <ais523> Sgeo: disambig for "alex smith"
03:13:23 <ais523> it needs a /lot/ of disambiguating
03:13:34 <ais523> but it's still in early stages
03:13:36 <Jafet> ais523: google only shows 10 results per page
03:13:44 <ais523> Jafet: based on Wikipedia
03:13:44 <Jafet> But we have faith in you
03:13:47 <GreyKnight> for the lazy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Smith_%28disambiguation%29
03:13:52 <ais523> which is awful at distinguishing alex smiths from each other
03:14:12 <GreyKnight> [[Alex Smith]] is some American football player, yawn
03:14:12 <Jafet> You're getting it mixed up. Wikipedia is a source of nobility. Google is the source of fame.
03:14:13 <ais523> it's added a bunch more footballers
03:14:55 <kmc> Jafet: yeah... Git uses a 3000 line Makefile which is full of explicit "ifeq ($(uname_S),FreeBSD)", rather than testing for the respective features
03:15:09 <kmc> https://github.com/git/git/blob/master/Makefile
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03:15:28 <GreyKnight> I tried to read the [[Alex Smith]] page but I got *bored out of my mind*
03:15:41 <ais523> GreyKnight: yeah, that isn't me :)
03:15:46 <Jafet> At first I read that it was calling uname like 3000 times
03:16:33 <kmc> i'm sure this approach is better in some ways, but it's not exactly ponies and rainbows
03:16:49 <Jafet> Makefile conditionals are fun. There isn't an "elseif" directive
03:17:44 <Jafet> endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif endif
03:17:57 <ais523> oh, btw, C-INTERCAL actually compiles on DOS
03:18:11 <ais523> (admittedly you need a DOS port of bash, but they aren't massively hard to come by)
03:18:15 <kmc> i used to think that the stuff autoconf tests is irrelevant on modern systems
03:18:21 <GreyKnight> "In week 5, Smith was booed at home and the crowd chanted for his backup, David Carr, before leading the 49ers to two scoring drives to close within three points." I don't understand why we can have pages and pages of this but no Pokemon articles
03:18:35 <kmc> then i worked on Mosh and saw how much conditional stuff was required to build that on just Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X
03:18:40 <kmc> (and by now a few other platforms)
03:19:00 <kmc> of course we also check for a ton of stuff that's irrelevant on modern systems just because
03:19:11 <ais523> kmc: autotools removed its test for the existence of #! :(
03:19:12 <kmc> checking if size_t is an integer and not a bobcat... ok
03:19:16 <ais523> so I had to rewrite it by hand
03:19:29 <ais523> it's actually relevant on DOS
03:19:30 <kmc> you couldn't just revert their removal?
03:19:49 <ais523> dnl Yes, that is a valid email address. If your mailer doesn't support nested
03:19:51 <ais523> dnl comments, then get a better mailer.
03:19:54 <ais523> kmc: I can't commit to autoconf's codebase
03:20:28 <kmc> ok but you couldn't rip out whatever macro they had and bundle it?
03:20:28 <ais523> oh yeah, and autoconf is kind-of buggy in other ways too
03:20:30 <ais523> dnl Don't assume yacc exists just because bison doesn't (wtf autoconf...)
03:20:35 <ais523> kmc: I pretty much did that
03:21:26 <kmc> that is fairly wtf
03:21:34 <GreyKnight> checking if sizeof(int) is non-negative... ok
03:21:47 <ais523> GreyKnight: which configure script is this? :)
03:22:15 <ais523> I'm actually running C-INTERCAL's now, just for fun
03:22:16 <GreyKnight> ...I assumed the bobcat one was made-up too but you never know I guess
03:22:29 <ais523> (./config.status --recheck in the build dir)
03:22:51 <ais523> nothing there is massively crazy
03:23:27 <ais523> although "checking for clock_gettime... no" looks like a bug
03:23:34 <ais523> because I'm moderately sure clock_gettime exists on Linux
03:23:45 <ais523> perhaps it's a missing -lrt in the test
03:23:57 <ais523> really, autotools should let you know what libraries the functions you request exist in
03:24:23 <ais523> aimake does that, although in order to avoid it scanning the entirety of /usr/lib for functions (which it can do but takes a while), you currently have to suggest to it names of libraries it they might be in
03:25:08 <ais523> aimake is awesome, but unfinished and a little buggy
03:25:21 <ais523> in particular, I can't figure out how to get it to make shared libraries, due to a chicken-and-egg problem
03:25:55 <ais523> (basically, you need to know if the functions included in a file are destined to go into a shared library to know what options to give when compiling it, but need to compile it to see which functions it contains)
03:26:08 <ais523> the aim of aimake is low-configuration builds that just work
03:26:46 <ais523> here's a nice comparison: http://sprunge.us/KPED
03:28:12 <ais523> and here's aimake.config itself: http://sprunge.us/bMJZ
03:29:01 <ais523> note that nothing in aimake.config could reasonably be guessed by the build system
03:29:20 <ais523> except maybe the rule for .o
03:30:35 <GreyKnight> I like this. I have parts of a lisp make system with a similar end in mind
03:30:50 <GreyKnight> just make it *work* and get out of the way
03:31:33 <ais523> aimake is written in Perl, and the reason is, because I realised there were only two languages it could possibly be written in
03:31:42 <ais523> both have to be widely installed already on people's systems
03:31:48 <ais523> I think I even backported it to Perl 5.8
03:31:59 <ais523> oh and it can't use any libraries that aren't part of a standard minimal distribution
03:32:23 <kmc> you forgot posix sh
03:32:32 <ais523> this is why it uses Perl syntax for the config file (parseable using Safe+eval, which is part of Perl's standard distribution), rather than something like YAML, which needs libraries or else rewriting a parser from scratch
03:32:42 <ais523> kmc: I have a feeling that wouldn't work
03:32:51 <ais523> also, Perl works just fine on Windows
03:32:59 <ais523> aimake doesn't, but only because of missing entries for Windows in its config files
03:33:04 <Jafet> kmc: hey, you wouldn't even need to test for a usable shell then!
03:33:08 <GreyKnight> I only use my thing for my own use so I could at least rely on stuff being installed ;-)
03:34:09 <ais523> I haven't really used it for anything but nh4
03:34:12 <ais523> and a few test programs
03:34:16 <ais523> actually the nh4 repo is the aimake repo atm
03:34:24 <ais523> I originally had them separate but it was too much effort
03:34:40 <ais523> the other thing I did with aimake was to ensure that it was all one file
03:34:42 <ais523> that you could just ship
03:34:56 <ais523> well you can't atm because I haven't put explicit licensing conditions on it
03:35:17 <ais523> probably I'd go GPLv3 eventually
03:35:25 <Jafet> Is anyone using nh4 yet
03:35:28 <ais523> given that it's a build system and thus doesn't need to have the same license as the thing it's building
03:35:36 <ais523> Jafet: sure; there's a public server, people play on it
03:36:26 <ais523> someone's playing it atm, actually
03:40:24 <ais523> it's not as popular as 3.4.3 yet, though
03:40:29 <ais523> partly because it's rather unfinished
03:42:57 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe I should start playing Brogue again
03:42:59 <Jafet> I was playing powder the other day
03:43:03 <Sgeo> There are no Brogue servers :(
03:43:24 <Jafet> It has an interactive tutorial, where at one point there are items on the ground and you are asked to use-identify them
03:43:37 <Jafet> But the items are randomly generated in each tutorial
03:43:44 <kmc> unfortunately if you use GPL then a lot of people and companies will irrationally shun your software
03:43:55 <kmc> even if they are totally capable of complying with the terms
03:44:19 <kmc> using BSD or MIT license will reduce the amount of bullshit and trolls directed your way
03:44:24 <Sgeo> kmc, what about public domain? Does that get shunned?
03:44:30 <kmc> this might be a bad reason to do something, but there you go
03:44:52 <kmc> Sgeo: no, only by pedants (like me) who point out that it's legally ambiguous at best
03:45:08 <Jafet> wtfpl is fairly unambigious
03:45:11 <Sgeo> I thought we were talking about shunning because of a fear of open source in general
03:45:17 <Sgeo> An idea that proprietary is better
03:45:23 <kmc> not all jurisdictions have a concept of "public domain" and even if they do, you can't necessarily place things into it other than by dying and waiting 70 years
03:45:37 <kmc> Sgeo: no, i'm talking about a hatred of the GPL and a fear of its viral clauses
03:45:51 <kmc> a lot of companies forbid the use of any GPL software internally, or require explicit approval
03:45:56 <kmc> and are perfectly fine with permissive licenses
03:46:13 <kmc> they are terrified that a bit of GPL code will get into something they make and that 10 years later they will get sued for some huge amount
03:46:30 <kmc> WTFPL is amusing but you should at least pair it with a warranty clause if you're distributing software
03:46:34 <Jafet> Actually, that is not an unrealistic fear
03:46:44 <Jafet> Do warranty clauses even mean anything
03:46:54 <kmc> CC0 is a long-winded but comprehensive waiver of all copyright and associated rights
03:47:06 <kmc> Jafet: i don't know, IANAL, but people i've talked to seme to think it's important
03:47:23 <kmc> and specifically that parts need to be in ALL CAPS because case law holds that warranty disclaimers must be prominent
03:47:38 <Jafet> It's not like software writers assume themselves to be held liable for any bugs anyway
03:47:58 <kmc> Jafet: yeah, it's not totally unrealistic fear; otoh I think some parties go way too far
03:47:58 <GreyKnight> can we have an HTML license with blink tags for prominence :-I
03:48:13 <kmc> also if you use GPL then random trolls who have no interest in your software will join your IRC channel to tell you to burn in hell
03:48:19 <kmc> it's really remarkable
03:48:58 <kmc> Jafet: it doesn't matter if you assume yourself to be liable; it matters if the courts hold you liable
03:49:34 <kmc> and there's some idea that you are liable by default, but can disclaim some of that
03:49:36 <Sgeo> Some open-sourced project's project manager attempted to put the project under public domain, without asking any of the contributors (myself included)
03:49:54 <Jafet> If the courts have held programmers liable before, they would not think that they are so liable
03:50:09 <Jafet> I wonder how much case law is there for this
03:50:17 <kmc> yeah, i don't know
03:51:42 <kmc> Sgeo: sucks
03:51:42 <Jafet> <H1><BLINK><MARQUEE>THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED WITH ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. THE AUTHORS DISCLAIM RESPONSIBILITY FOR ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE CAUSED BY THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF USED IN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL, MOTOR VEHICLES, NUCLEAR REACTORS OR PACEMAKERS IF YOU ARE CRAZY ENOUGH TO DO THAT. DO YOUR EARS HURT YET?</MARQUEE></BLINK></H1>
03:53:59 <ais523> kmc: the all caps thing is because the law just says "prominent"< which is a little hard to define
03:54:07 <ais523> but there's case law saying that all caps is sufficient
03:54:15 <kmc> yeah that is what i have heard as well
03:54:19 <ais523> and faced with a strategy that's known to work, and several others which might or might not work
03:54:24 <Jafet> You never see warranty disclaimers in "about" dialogs though
03:54:27 <ais523> lawyers tend to take the safe route
03:54:35 <ais523> Jafet: there's one in jettyplay's, fwiw
03:54:35 <kmc> i think the intent of the law was to avoid people putting disclaimers in tiny text
03:54:45 <kmc> Jafet: huh, i think i have seen them
03:55:08 <ais523> hmm, let me look at the EULA the lawyers at work wrote
03:55:34 <ais523> for anyone else who wants to laugh, https://sites.google.com/site/thegeometryofsynthesis/download/licence
03:55:59 <Jafet> Isn't licence a verb
03:56:07 <ais523> but that's the spelling the lawyers gave us
03:56:11 <ais523> and who am I to fix it?
03:56:26 <ais523> (also I'm pretty sure I made that mistake myself in jettyplay)
03:57:08 <ais523> apart from the teaching
03:57:10 <ais523> which is also my day job
03:57:13 <ais523> I have two part-time jobs atm
03:57:39 -!- etb has joined.
03:59:16 <GreyKnight> dammit stop being good at everything >:-(
03:59:26 <ais523> I'm not good at everything
03:59:32 <ais523> but I tend to talk mostly on subjects I'm good at
04:00:05 <quintopia> ais523: stealth does a shallow poke, then builds some decoys before doing its wiggle clear, right?
04:00:25 <ais523> 5 with a nearby enemy, 7 if it was further away
04:00:31 <ais523> oh and if it reaches tape length 11, it builds them anyway
04:00:37 <ais523> then does a wiggled undermine
04:00:52 <quintopia> what if you made the decoy closest to its flag have a value equal to its distance from the flag
04:00:56 <ais523> if the enemy sets decoys to 11 in the meantime
04:01:07 <ais523> quintopia: huh, why would that help?
04:01:37 <ais523> (the wiggled undermine only helps in a specific range of tape lengths, but it's awesome there and beats basically every BF Joust program in existence)
04:02:03 <ais523> quintopia: you mean to work out where on the tape we were? it's both vulnerable to enemy interference, and requires way too long to check
04:02:10 <quintopia> it could clear it to figure out instantly where its own flag was
04:02:18 <quintopia> and then build the large decoys in front of its flag
04:02:46 <ais523> quintopia: yeah but if it encounters, say, a "2"
04:02:49 <ais523> is that two spaces from its own flag
04:02:52 <ais523> or the enemy trailing 2s
04:02:55 <ais523> (space_hotel trails 2s)
04:03:35 <quintopia> it could be fooled for sure, but it has a series of 5s in front, so it will probably be back there before the enemy changes it
04:04:34 <quintopia> alternately you could have a sequence of decoys that increase away from the flag. then you will know where you are from any of them and also have error correction built in
04:04:37 <ais523> especially against the programs it's trying to beat
04:04:58 <ais523> actually the medium-sized decoys, I might gain a bit more time by mixing the reverse and forward setup
04:05:19 <ais523> and the initial decoy setup, I cannot really stall on
04:05:22 <ais523> time there is really previous
04:05:33 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:05:39 <ais523> the 5 on cell 3 is basically the biggest compromise I'm willing to make
04:05:54 <ais523> and that's only to ensure that pokes don't find the flag itself
04:06:05 -!- copumpkin has joined.
04:06:14 <quintopia> i dont propose to change that setup
04:06:28 <quintopia> im only talking about the decoy build after the shallow poke
04:06:39 <quintopia> while you still know where you are
04:07:21 <ais523> actually originally that code didn't know where it was
04:07:28 <ais523> I split it out for a little finer control
04:07:36 <ais523> so I guess I could make the medium build vary
04:08:20 <quintopia> if you dont try the increasing decoys away from the flag thing, i might. it seems like it could provide a lot of data if you could figure out how to analyze it
04:08:57 <ais523> quintopia: I'd be interested to see what you come up with
04:09:03 <ais523> actually, I'm kind of happy that stealth isn't #1
04:09:14 <ais523> it beats the current "best programs", at least over half the time
04:09:20 <ais523> but it loses to more normal stuff
04:09:23 <quintopia> i didnt actually see where it landed
04:09:27 <ais523> hopefully this will get a bit of diversity back in the hill
04:09:35 <ais523> but much higher on points
04:10:07 <ais523> it's #4 on points, though
04:10:13 <ais523> and just churn at the bottom of the hill
04:11:35 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
04:11:43 <ais523> kind-of surprised you haven't noticed it in the past
04:11:51 <ais523> but it's the best competitive eso sport ever
04:11:58 <ais523> (possibly because there aren't many competitive eso sports)
04:12:31 <kmc> not to be confused with competitive ero sport
04:12:39 <Jafet> I wonder what's become of corewars
04:12:53 <kmc> i'm impressed with how deeply BF Joust strategy is developed
04:13:25 <ais523> yeah, the current rules have kept on giving
04:13:32 <ais523> although defence is mostly dead nowadays
04:13:45 <ais523> shudderlock is my best attempt at that and it's #12
04:14:24 <kmc> MIT runs an AI competition game every year
04:14:33 <kmc> i guess it is not much like corewars though
04:14:39 <kmc> http://www.battlecode.org/
04:15:21 <kmc> i like the artificial life research that grew out of corewars
04:16:48 <ais523> quintopia: how does space_hotel deal with shudderlock, btw?
04:17:27 <ais523> flexible timer clear, by the look of it
04:17:50 <ais523> I'm annoyed at that existing, even though I invented it
04:19:54 <ais523> wait, is space_hotel vulnerable to triplocks? seriously?
04:20:07 <ais523> ah, but only on small decoys
04:20:47 <ais523> !bfjoust small_triplock >>>+++<++([]+++)*-1
04:20:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_small_triplock: 1.8
04:21:02 <ais523> yeah, that's a good compromise
04:21:13 <Jafet> "BF Joust was introduced as a contest within the nomic Agora"
04:21:17 <ais523> no way you're going to be able to do an entire full tape clear in four cycles
04:22:22 <ais523> it's probably vibratable, actually, but only for a draw not for a win
04:34:07 <kmc> *-1 produces a notionally infinite program, right?
04:39:00 <Jafet> I feel that programs should also be scored on their lengths
04:39:30 <Jafet> Against which competitors does !bfjoust joust?
04:40:04 <ais523> a selection of 48 programs through BF Joust history
04:40:35 <ais523> if considering those 48 programs and your new submitted program, your new program doesn't come last
04:40:40 <ais523> then it pushes the last of those 48 off
04:40:53 <ais523> so good programs stay for ages because 48 better programs are needed to push them off
04:41:02 <ais523> but even quite bad programs can stay on the hill for a while if they were submitted recently
04:41:07 <ais523> because all that's needed is for them to not be last
04:41:26 <ais523> you can delete programs for the hill if you need to for some reason (most commonly because they're near-duplicates of another)
04:43:20 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet__: 8.0
04:43:34 <ais523> that is not a very good program
04:43:58 <ais523> it moves to the second cell, attempts to zero it (it's already zero), moves to the third cell, then just stops
04:44:17 <ais523> !bfjoust the_first_program_ever [>-]
04:44:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_the_first_program_ever: 0.0
04:44:24 <ais523> err, what did I get wrong there
04:44:31 <ais523> !bfjoust the_first_program_ever [>[-]+]
04:44:34 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_the_first_program_ever: 7.0
04:44:36 <ais523> that was the first program ever
04:45:27 <ais523> it… doesn't do too well nowadays
04:46:12 <kmc> !bfjoust (>)*9([-]>)*21
04:46:12 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
04:46:20 <kmc> !bfjoust dumb (>)*9([-]>)*21
04:46:23 <EgoBot> Score for kmc_dumb: 18.4
04:47:24 <etb> !bfjoust suicide (>)*9[[(-)*128.>]>]
04:47:26 <EgoBot> Score for etb_suicide: 8.4
04:47:39 <etb> !bfjoust suicide <
04:47:42 <EgoBot> Score for etb_suicide: 0.0
04:47:45 <ais523> etb: your loop structure is a little broken there, isn't it?
04:48:04 <ais523> !bfjoust naive_turtle (>)*8(>(-)*128)*21
04:48:07 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_naive_turtle: 1.4
04:48:15 <etb> !bfjoust suicide (>)*9([(-)*128.>]>)*21
04:48:15 <ais523> !bfjoust naive_turtle (>)*8(>(-)*128.)*21
04:48:18 <EgoBot> Score for etb_suicide: 19.6
04:48:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_naive_turtle: 3.9
04:48:29 <ais523> should be at least non-naive enough not to fall off the tape if all works well
04:48:45 <ais523> suicide's actually good enough to just make the hill
04:49:12 <ais523> I doubt it'll survive there long :)
04:49:19 <ais523> waterfall2 got pushed off
04:49:19 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_test: 8.0
04:49:30 <ais523> Jafet: that program consistently scores like 8, and has done for ages
04:49:42 <Jafet> How is score calculated?
04:49:47 <etb> ah i'm off now too
04:49:59 <ais523> Jafet: basically, you get more points for beating better programs
04:50:09 <ais523> and don't lose score for losing
04:50:19 <ais523> this leads to a circular dependency between scores, but it just solves the equations
04:50:49 <Jafet> So every program is rescored each time a new program gets to the hill
04:51:25 <ais523> new programs entering at the bottom can shuffle the order on the hill
04:51:32 <ais523> and when waterfall3 was added and beat every existing program
04:51:42 <ais523> someone managed to screw up the hill by submitting 47 copies of it
04:51:45 <ais523> and we had to restore from backups
04:52:01 <ais523> in the end, they went to just one copy, then I tweaked it to beat the old version of itself too :)
04:53:36 <Jafet> !bfjoust test (+)*100000
04:53:40 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_test: 13.7
04:53:50 <ais523> Jafet: that program is submitted frequently
04:54:00 <ais523> !bfjoust this_test_worked_better (+--)*-1
04:54:04 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_test_worked_better: 17.0
04:54:07 <Jafet> I wouldn't be surprised
04:54:31 <Jafet> I imagine the programs on the hill detect it
04:54:46 <ais523> the problem with shudders like that is that they're very easy to add in protection against
04:54:52 <ais523> without compromising your main strategy at all
04:55:24 <ais523> something like [-][+[+.++]] is only one cycle than [-] if the opponent isn't actively defending
04:55:30 <ais523> *only one cycle slower
04:55:41 <etb> entering [ with *p==0 moves to after companion ]?
04:56:02 <ais523> but the matching ] doesn't
04:56:48 <kmc> is the idea of +-- to cross zero more often, so that the opponent will be tricked into falling off the end?
04:57:21 <ais523> kmc: I don't know, I wasn't involved in the early days of shudder
04:57:25 <ais523> I always preferred vibration
04:57:41 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >(+)*128<(+)*128(+-)*-1
04:57:45 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 29.9
04:58:07 <ais523> oh come on, it's at #18 :)
04:58:10 <kmc> and why the decoy?
04:58:19 <ais523> can't set the flag to 0 in time without it
04:58:35 <ais523> the idea's that most programs move straight on if they see a 0 on a cell
04:58:40 <ais523> so you can trick them off the end of the tape
04:58:46 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>>(+)*128<<<(+)*128(+-)*-1
04:58:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 30.0
05:00:00 <ais523> etb: also re patience: it's generally considered polite to submit programs in-channel so that people can discuss them, all the programs are public knowledge anyway
05:00:18 <ais523> especially because you're blowing away useful breakdown results
05:00:21 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>>(+)*128<<<(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:00:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 30.0
05:00:53 <ais523> how is this beating all these top programs?
05:01:01 <ais523> Gregor: ffspg loses to vibration, of all things!
05:01:13 <Jafet> I assume bfjoust is anything but transitive
05:01:31 <ais523> Jafet: definitely, it'd be no fun if it were
05:01:33 <etb> didn't want to clutter it in here with beginner experiments
05:02:07 <ais523> etb: if you want a private place for experiments, there's http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/
05:02:12 <ais523> which is an online BF Joust debugger
05:02:17 <Gregor> ais523: All the femdom girls have weird failure cases.
05:02:24 <etb> ais523: thanks
05:02:46 <ais523> Gregor: I'm more amused at all the ways I've discovered to beat it since it utterly dominated the hill
05:02:51 <ais523> if only I'd found them at the time :)
05:03:23 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >(+)*128<(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:03:23 <Jafet> ais523: but why is the hill ranked then
05:03:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 28.3
05:03:32 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>>(+)*128<<<(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:03:36 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 30.0
05:03:41 <ais523> Jafet: it measures how you do against a wide selection of programs
05:03:54 <ais523> like, there are good old programs, and hot new newcomers
05:04:02 <ais523> and defensive programs and slow rushes and fast rushes
05:04:06 <ais523> so it's a nice cross-section
05:04:12 <ais523> and if a strategy starts dominating, you can pick on it
05:04:49 <etb> !bfjoust mimic (>(+)*128)*5(<)*5(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:04:53 <EgoBot> Score for etb_mimic: 14.8
05:05:44 <ais523> try reading the article on reverse decoy setup on the wiki for an explanation as to why that typically doesn't work
05:05:48 <Gregor> Jafet: Yeah, the hill is a very living entity. There's not even such a concept as a truly "best" program.
05:06:30 <Sgeo> ...there's a BF Joust wiki?
05:07:03 <Sgeo> Cool, there's a website called programminggames.org
05:07:08 <ais523> no, the strategies page on esolangs
05:07:17 <etb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
05:08:38 <etb> !bfjoust mimic (>)*9(+)*128(<)*9(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:08:42 <EgoBot> Score for etb_mimic: 15.9
05:09:04 <Sgeo> http://tclrobots.org/sample-robots/
05:09:05 <etb> i called it mimic because i'm just copying vibration
05:09:12 <Sgeo> I seem to be reminded of how beautiful Tcl is
05:09:35 <ais523> etb: this sort of experimentation is fine, it's how everyone got started
05:09:44 <Jafet> tcl is beautiful in the sense that it isn't
05:10:10 <Bike> and truly, isn't that the greatest beauty of all
05:10:19 <ais523> Jafet: as an elaboration on what Gregor is saying, something like space_hotel is top of the hill for good reason, but under a metric like "is good at defeating the top programs on the hill", something like stealth does better
05:10:32 <ais523> well, space_hotel beats everything, or used to at least
05:10:59 <Sgeo> Tcl's rather elegant, just needs a different standard library
05:11:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
05:11:32 <quintopia> !bfjoust tetris_slowrush >++++++>(+)*15>(-)*40(>[>>>>(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*25]------>[>>>>(>(-)*40[+][-][+])*25](+)*15> [>>>>(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*25](-)*40>[>>>>(>(-)*40[+][-][+])*25]------>[>>>>(>(+)*40[-][+][-])*25](+)*15> [>>>>(>(-)*40[+][-][+])*25](+)*40)*26
05:11:35 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_tetris_slowrush: 18.4
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05:11:56 -!- copumpkin has joined.
05:12:03 <ais523> that's using the collision strategy, right?
05:12:32 <quintopia> its just a basic slowrush that skips some decoys
05:12:41 <ais523> well I meant the >>>> in the loop
05:13:15 <ais523> I should revisit collision some time, really
05:13:49 <ais523> in this age of everything building loads of decoys, it would make fast rushes faster without really hurting them at all
05:14:01 <ais523> just fast rush is a bit underrepresented atm
05:14:48 <ais523> quintopia: oh, I have a request to make
05:15:02 <ais523> can you submit an edited version of space_elevator that doesn't use parens in comments, please?
05:15:13 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
05:15:22 <ais523> cranklance seems not to care, but juiced bitches at it (probably correctly)
05:15:30 <ais523> it sees ( and ), which are valid commands
05:15:35 <ais523> but no %n or *n after it
05:15:43 <ais523> my personal BF Joust interp that I use for testing
05:16:15 <ais523> basically, ( and ) aren't actually comments in BF Joust
05:16:34 <ais523> I guess I could just change juiced to be more bug-compatible with cranklance
05:16:35 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
05:16:38 <ais523> but I don't like doing that
05:16:45 <ais523> I bitched enough about the whitespace between * and number thing
05:17:03 <quintopia> i think there's only the one set of parens in space_elevator that isnt code
05:17:57 <quintopia> why not just add a line to juiced that globally replaces ) not followed by * with )*0 and saves it
05:18:04 <quintopia> then you arent touching your core code
05:18:06 <etb> !bfjoust tinkle >[]<(+)*-1
05:18:12 <EgoBot> Score for etb_tinkle: 13.7
05:18:17 <ais523> EgoBot: if you're trying to tripwire
05:18:21 <ais523> set the cell to something nonzero
05:18:28 <ais523> or your loop will just end immediately
05:18:41 <etb> is the playing field not randomized?
05:18:53 <etb> that makes a big difference, hehe
05:19:00 <ais523> it's at the core of decoy setting
05:19:11 <etb> !bfjoust tinkle >-[]<(+)*-1
05:19:12 <quintopia> ...but thats an interesting idea :P
05:19:15 <EgoBot> Score for etb_tinkle: 9.6
05:19:17 <ais523> quintopia: no it isn't
05:19:27 <ais523> it's basically a race of "who writes the best tuned reverse offset clear"
05:20:10 <ais523> because it'd take way too long to clear your own decoys to be able to set them to appropriate values
05:20:18 <ais523> quintopia: no, just the implications are reasonably clear
05:20:25 <ais523> it's basically "both programs have infinite free decoys"
05:20:53 <ais523> thus, there's no incentive to use any sort of clear loop but turtle and reverse offset
05:20:59 <etb> on a general note, the history section on the wiki lacks any actual dates
05:21:02 <quintopia> if the playing field was a bilaterally symmetrical distribution selected from {-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3}?
05:21:03 <ais523> and the matching defensive programs
05:21:15 <ais523> we could try to determine them, I guess
05:21:23 <ais523> quintopia: oh, that's more interesting than purely random
05:21:34 <ais523> wouldn't be too dissimilar to what we have atm, except that fast pokes wouldn't exist
05:21:37 <etb> at least an approximate year would be good to know
05:21:43 <ais523> and reverse tripwire setting would take a little longer
05:22:22 <etb> "At the beginning of a battle, every cell is set to zero" whoops
05:22:53 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit).
05:23:01 <quintopia> the one where you implement a palindrome detector that guesses when its in the "backwards" half of the palindrome and then jumps right the other flag
05:23:30 <quintopia> which is foiled by the other player putting decoys in random places etc
05:26:30 <etb> !bfjoust geddy_lee (>)*9(((+)*3[-].>)>)*21
05:26:34 <EgoBot> Score for etb_geddy_lee: 0.0
05:26:57 <etb> hm, as good as the original suicide <
05:27:13 * ais523 looks for obvious problems
05:27:17 <ais523> oh, you have unmatched parens
05:27:23 <ais523> a () without a * or % afterwards
05:27:39 <ais523> seems like cranklance interprets that as commenting out everything in between
05:27:42 <etb> !bfjoust geddy_lee (>)*9((+)*3[-].>)*21
05:27:45 <EgoBot> Score for etb_geddy_lee: 9.6
05:29:04 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
05:29:14 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 13.6
05:29:46 <ais523> shachaf: that's just a polarity inverted always-increment program
05:29:50 <ais523> so will have the same score
05:30:04 <ais523> the best name I ever saw for that program was "you_spin_me_right_round", I forget who came up with it
05:30:18 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_ho: 13.6
05:30:24 <Jafet> !bfjoust 'lo (+-)*-1
05:30:28 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet__lo: 10.1
05:30:36 <shachaf> Maybe I should read the rules.
05:30:37 <Jafet> Probably a parity thing
05:31:15 <Jafet> !bfjoust __ (+-+-+-+)*-1
05:31:19 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet___: 12.7
05:31:52 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>>(+)*128<<<(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:31:56 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 30.0
05:31:59 <ais523> let's try without the decoy
05:32:03 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration (+)*128(+-)*-1
05:32:06 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 28.0
05:32:18 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 11.7
05:32:21 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>>>(+)*128<<<<(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:32:25 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 21.1
05:32:29 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>(+)*128<<(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:32:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 30.0
05:32:50 <ais523> using no decoy would beat leviathan
05:32:58 <ais523> but is less good against various other programs
05:33:27 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>(+)*128<<.(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:33:31 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 17.8
05:33:37 <ais523> haha, look at that parity dependence :)
05:33:41 <ais523> !bfjoust vibration >>(+)*128<<(+)*128(+-)*-1
05:33:44 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_vibration: 30.0
05:34:04 <Jafet> !bfjoust communism (>(+)*128.)*-1
05:34:07 <EgoBot> Score for Jafet_communism: 8.4
05:34:37 <ais523> those did really well back when they were invented
05:34:44 <ais523> then people started taking countermeasures against them
05:34:50 <ais523> and now they're sprinkled throughout the hill
05:35:54 <etb> !bfjoust quixote (>)*9[>+]
05:35:57 <EgoBot> Score for etb_quixote: 7.0
05:36:12 <etb> ha expected much worse
05:36:15 <Jafet> Has anyone tried genetic programming for bfjoust
05:36:22 <ais523> yeah, that's likely to jam unless it hits an enemy decoy
05:36:31 <Jafet> I assume it didn't work then
05:36:36 <ais523> evo1 fell off the hill eventually
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05:36:48 <ais523> it was produced by evolving some of the example programs from the wiki, IIRC
05:37:04 <ais523> the problem is that a good complex clear loop can't really be generated by evolving at a low level
05:37:13 <ais523> without way too many tests
05:37:39 <Jafet> Well, evolving at the instruction level isn't going to work
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05:40:38 <etb> looking at space_hotel now... my.
05:40:58 <ais523> normally, there's some sort of pattern
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05:41:15 <ais523> just one more complex than can be encoded with ()* and ({})%
05:42:03 <Jafet> Also, they are brainfuck programs
05:42:09 <Jafet> "what do you expect"
05:43:12 <etb> compared to our one-liners
05:43:22 <etb> 6700 lines of generated bf code
05:43:32 <etb> it looks goooood
05:45:13 <etb> ++++++++++[>++++++++>++++++++++>+++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++<<<<<-]><+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>>+.>++.<++.>>>+++++++.--.+.<<<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
05:48:17 <ais523> you can often do pretty well just with one-liners
05:48:25 <ais523> triplock3 was a one-liner, and did great when it first came out
05:48:33 <ais523> basically because nobody had invented the countermeasure yet
05:48:45 <ais523> nowadays everyone protects their code from triplocking
05:48:55 <ais523> and as such, triplocking fell off the hill altogether
05:49:03 <Bike> how many people are involved with this
05:49:43 <ais523> see for yourself: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/report.txt
05:50:14 <ais523> submitting username is listed on the hill
05:50:28 <ais523> both for namespacing to avoid clashes, and so we know who to talk to about it
05:56:37 <quintopia> etb: space_hotel is not generated. its all hand-coded with help of copy/paste
05:56:48 <etb> quintopia: hott
05:57:26 <etb> quintopia: that's impressive
05:58:04 <quintopia> look at gregor's stuff for examples of generated programs
05:58:16 <Fiora> has someone made a bf programming language with a preprocessor to automate copypasting and the like?
05:58:31 <etb> !bfjoust fools_odds (>)*15[-].
05:58:34 <EgoBot> Score for etb_fools_odds: 3.8
05:58:58 <Bike> Fiora: there are some with procedures and stuff.
05:59:09 <shachaf> Fiora: Isn't that what the bfjoust thing does?
05:59:25 <Bike> and yeah, i was assuming the numbers were some kind of rep count.
05:59:36 <Bike> wait. run-length encoding. i already asked this.
05:59:47 <Jafet> That seems to be missing the point of brainfuck
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06:00:05 <Bike> the shortest possible compiler?
06:00:08 <shachaf> !bfjoust ([+++>(+-)*8]>(-+)*8[+>])*8
06:00:08 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
06:00:11 <shachaf> !bfjoust hi ([+++>(+-)*8]>(-+)*8[+>])*8
06:00:14 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 2.8
06:00:25 <etb> how can bf jump to subroutine?
06:00:30 <quintopia> !bfjoust long_tapes (>)*15(>(-)*120(-.)*16)*14
06:00:33 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_long_tapes: 2.7
06:00:52 <Fiora> yeah, but the joust thing obviously isn't flexible enough to avoid heavy copypasting in the creation of, like, space hotel, right?
06:01:03 <Fiora> since it's just RLE
06:01:04 <quintopia> !bfjoust long_tapes (>++)*14(>(-)*120(-.)*16)*14
06:01:07 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_long_tapes: 2.1
06:01:13 <Bike> obviously what is needed is a system that uses brainfuck to generate brainfuck
06:01:25 <Jafet> And then jousts the resulting brainfuck
06:01:51 <Jafet> And maybe jousts the generating brainfuck, too
06:01:59 <quintopia> !bfjoust long_tapes >(+)*15(>)*14(>[(-)*120(-.)*16])*14
06:02:00 <Fiora> how about it jousts them until it converges
06:02:02 <EgoBot> Score for quintopia_long_tapes: 7.3
06:02:31 <etb> ISO Brainfuck 2013...
06:02:55 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
06:03:00 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 0.0
06:03:07 <EgoBot> Score for shachaf_hi: 10.1
06:03:13 <quintopia> Fiora: do you mean until their scores don't change?
06:03:24 <Fiora> or something? I don't know
06:04:28 <etb> but seriously, it's impossible, right? you can't carry a cell in tow to count how far to move the pointer
06:04:36 <etb> damn bf, so limiting . . . :P
06:05:01 <etb> brainfuck jump to subroutine
06:05:12 <Jafet> What is a subroutine
06:05:16 <quintopia> you can have a macro language that does it though
06:05:47 <Fiora> all subroutines are inlined
06:05:51 <Jafet> Perhaps bfjoust should have macros
06:06:04 <etb> it seems to already
06:06:39 <etb> if you can call this * and % business macros
06:06:40 <Jafet> They should not be allowed to be recursive, though, so the interpreter should topologically sort the program beforehand
06:07:09 <quintopia> perhaps bfjoust should have many things, but there is no consensus that a particular extension should be added. people pretty much like it as it is.
06:08:36 <ais523> Jafet: I actually use non-recursive macros for generating programs for submission sometimes
06:08:56 <ais523> stealth was made like that, together with reindenting the output using emacs brainfuck-joust-mode
06:09:05 <etb> it's like cyberpunk blindfolded chess played against every dead master in succession
06:09:17 <etb> i like it. good idea, guys.
06:09:18 <Jafet> brainfuck-joust-mode
06:09:42 <Bike> you. made an emacs mode?
06:09:43 <ais523> don't worry, it isn't part of the emacs standard distribution
06:09:50 <ais523> but I already had brainfuck-mode lying around
06:09:53 <ais523> so it wasn't much modification
06:11:04 <ais523> also, if only I could come up with a way to do anticipation that doesn't require omitting cases that aren't actually used just to be able to stay on the hill
06:11:31 <ais523> etb: % and * are nice because although they notionally expand to BF, so you aren't adding anything to the language at all
06:11:46 <ais523> modern interps can process them way faster than they could process the equivalent expanded code
06:11:50 <ais523> so you get your results from the hill in faster
06:12:12 <Bike> have you yet established a journal for brainfuck optimization strategies
06:13:17 <ais523> the two-competing-programs aspect makes JITting it a little awkward
06:13:20 <ais523> although not impossible
06:13:37 <Fiora> actually here's an idea
06:13:43 <Fiora> instead of using chars lke '>'
06:13:46 <Fiora> use machine instructions
06:13:48 <Jafet> Just make a language that consists of two programs running in parallel
06:13:51 <Fiora> so like '>' is actually an 'inc'
06:14:03 <Bike> Fiora: so... compile it?
06:14:15 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, but like, let's say one program overwrites the other program or whatever
06:14:23 <Fiora> instead of outputting a '>', it also outputs an inc
06:14:27 <Fiora> is this different from corewars
06:14:40 <Fiora> I should have checked exactly how it worked first <_>
06:15:51 <Bike> asking questions and reading is the devil, fiora.
06:15:57 <Fiora> okay so how does bfjoust work
06:16:06 <Bike> there's an article on it on esolang.
06:17:05 <Bike> from glancing it looks like they're not in the data, so not so much like corewars
06:17:32 <Fiora> here's an idea to allow two programs executed simultaneously with a JIT
06:17:52 <Fiora> compile the two programs, interleave them, and create N copies, one for each possible combination of addresses in the two programs
06:18:12 <Fiora> and then create a state machine
06:18:20 <Fiora> so like, if one program has a jump but the other doesn't, you transition to the appropriate new program
06:19:34 <Fiora> oh huh. > and < move to and from the opponent, not specific directions
06:20:10 <Jafet> bfjoust programs can have thousands of instructions
06:20:29 <Fiora> that would be kinda instruction cache murdernig I guess
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06:23:55 <etb> think i could add an eso lang to esolangs under jokes > brainfuck derivatives?
06:24:23 <Bike> I think making a brainfuck derivative makes you immediately eligible for death by sky burial.
06:25:47 * Sgeo is eligible for death by sky burial.
06:26:10 <etb> probably numerous people here are up for one then
06:26:16 <etb> "the Bin Laden"
06:27:20 <Sgeo> I can't help but wonder if BF Joust counts as a BF derivative...
06:27:56 <Bike> Worms, the lot of you. Die.
06:28:21 <kmc> Worms! Oh my god worms!
06:29:48 <Sgeo> We are worms, we're the best, and we've come to win the war.
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06:33:49 <Fiora> brainfuck derivative: a language that records the change over time in a brainfuck program
06:34:08 <shachaf> Wouldn't it be the type of one-hole contexts?
06:34:11 <kmc> Fiora: c.c
06:35:29 <Bike> Fiora: there's reversible brainfuck.
06:41:11 <shachaf> So the way holes in types correspond to the various simple derivative rules (D(f+g) = D(f)+D(g), D(f*g)=f*D(g)+g*D(f)) is actually pretty obvious if you think about it.
06:41:24 <shachaf> The corresponding rules for "normal" derivatives don't seem so obvious.
06:42:04 <Bike> what is a hole in a type?
06:42:52 <shachaf> Bike: For example, if you have a type Foo a = (a,a,a), then a Foo with a hole in it would involve replacing one of the "a"s with a "hole".
06:43:04 <shachaf> So you might get (_,a,a) or (a,_,a) or (a,a,_)
06:43:49 <shachaf> So "(a,a,a) with one hole" corresponds to data WhichOne = First | Second | Third; (WhichOne,a,a)
06:44:23 <shachaf> I wonder whether there's a way to carry the intuition back to "normal" derivatives.
06:44:53 * shachaf doesn't remember how much Haskell Bike knows.
06:44:59 <shachaf> Bike: (Also you should /nick bicycle.)
06:45:02 <Fiora> ohhh, so it's the pattern matching thin
06:45:26 <shachaf> It's not pattern matching.
06:45:29 <Fiora> I usually remember _ being used for pattern matching
06:45:32 <Fiora> oh, then what is it?
06:45:59 <shachaf> Let's say you had a dynamically typed language, and a tuple.
06:46:16 <shachaf> You could replace one of the numbers with a "hole" value.
06:46:25 <shachaf> There are three numbers you could pick.
06:46:45 <shachaf> So you might say (Hole,10,20) or (5,Hole,20) or (5,10,Hole)
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06:47:35 <shachaf> Does that part make sense?
06:47:41 <shachaf> (These are values now, not types.)
06:47:49 <shachaf> (Sometimes the Haskell type/value punning is a bit unfortunate.)
06:48:35 <Fiora> but wouldn't that change the type?
06:48:55 <shachaf> Sure, but ignoring the type, does the idea of a "hole" make sense?
06:49:05 <Bike> As just a distinguished thingamajig?
06:49:07 <shachaf> Given a thing with a hole in it, you could find the hole and put something in it, and so on.
06:49:57 <shachaf> It's one position that would normally have a value but now has a hole instead, as a sort of placeholder.
06:51:48 <Sgeo> Could I call a lambda a hole, or can I do things with holes that I can't with functions?
06:52:17 <Sgeo> As in, the (5, _, 10) hole, can I call that \h -> (5, h, 10), or is it possible to look at the first and third without feeding an argument?
06:52:53 * Sgeo guesses the latter
06:53:05 <shachaf> It's not really the same thing.
06:53:18 <shachaf> Closer to the latter, yes.
06:54:26 <kmc> :t fst . ($ undefined)
06:56:57 <Sgeo> I was about to ask how it could possibly return a b when given just a function and no a, but then I saw the undefined again
06:57:07 <Sgeo> undefined is cheaty
06:57:22 <kmc> sorry, i'm doing the "derailing explanation with confusing lambdabot output" thing
06:57:40 <shachaf> newtype T = T (T -> T) -- "pretty cool type"
06:57:54 <shachaf> kmc: I think the explainees have lost interest or something.
06:58:15 <shachaf> Anyway this isn't #haskell.
06:58:17 <Bike> It's kind of discouraging to see "well, that's sort of like a hole, except not"
06:58:36 <kmc> oh but this derivatives thing is so cool!
06:58:50 <shachaf> It's exactly like a hole. :-) The trouble is communicating exactly what a hole means.
06:58:58 <kmc> perhaps you need to approach it from navigation / zippers rather than just holes
06:59:01 <shachaf> I thought I'd start with an analogy and proceed with feedback.
06:59:31 <shachaf> I think explaining zippers is more complicated than explaining holes, though.
07:00:07 <Bike> I mean, it makes me think I'm probably better off understanding derivatives as operators etc
07:00:33 <Sgeo> If I have a type (Functor F) => F A, is a hole effectively a F (Maybe A)?
07:00:51 <Sgeo> Hmm, allows for too many holes
07:01:09 <shachaf> Yes. The trick is that you want there to be exactly one hole.
07:01:13 <shachaf> But I haven't gotten to that yet.
07:01:43 <shachaf> Bike: If the things I say are confusing it probably means I'm doing a bad job. Only you can help me get better!
07:03:33 <Bike> well, i don't know what this hole thing is. sgeo's earlier try makes me think a tuple (Hole,4) would be like an object that can take a "left" message (which returns... Undefined?), a "right" message (4), and a fill_left_hole message so that later left messages bla bla i haven't even used smalltalk what is wrong with me
07:04:02 <shachaf> I think it's simpler to think of data than of objects.
07:04:23 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe a smaller types is better.
07:04:39 <shachaf> Let's say you have (10,20). That's a pair of two integers. So far does that make sense?
07:05:24 <shachaf> Now let's say we want to poke a "hole" in it. You're not really expected to know precisely what a "hole" is yet; that's why I'm giving examples.
07:05:40 <shachaf> Here are the two options we have: (<HOLE>,20) and (10,<HOLE>)
07:06:30 <shachaf> When we look at that thing, we get two pieces of information: The integer that *isn't* the hole, and the position of the hole.
07:06:41 <shachaf> (Is this where it stops making sense?)
07:07:18 <Bike> no, I get that much I think.
07:08:00 <Bike> So about the pair (Hole,20) we can know "it has a hole, at position 0" and "20" (no position? no length of the tuple?)
07:08:33 <Sgeo> In Haskell, the length of a tuple is part of the type
07:08:33 <shachaf> It has the hole (let's say there's only ever one hole) at position 0, and 20 at position 1.
07:08:38 <shachaf> The tuple is always of length 2.
07:09:14 <Sgeo> You could derive (no pun intended) the position of the 20 from the position of the hole
07:09:51 <Sgeo> ...above statement not applicable to >2-tuples, so ignore me
07:09:55 <Bike> I'm trying to make as few assumptions as I can.
07:10:01 <shachaf> Bike: So let's say we wanted a type that captured exactly "a pair of two integers where one of them has been replaced with a hole".
07:10:17 <Bike> Ok. Such a type would include both (Hole,20) and (10,Hole), yes?
07:10:29 <shachaf> So we know that the information we have is (a) an integer, and (b) where the hole is.
07:10:48 <shachaf> (We also know where the integer is, but that's kind of implied, since there are only two possible positions.)
07:12:05 <shachaf> So we can define a type: data Where'sTheHole = FirstPosition | SecondPosition
07:12:29 <shachaf> And now we can say that IntegerWithHole = (Where'sTheHole, Integer)
07:12:50 <shachaf> That stores the exact information, right?
07:13:02 <Bike> Oh, so the type tuple is just a representation, it's got nothing to do with the data tuple position-wise or anything.
07:13:37 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure what you mean, but it sounds right. :-)
07:14:24 <Jafet> Also, one tree is isomorphic to seven
07:14:26 <Sgeo> Bike, yes. The IntegerWithHole is just two pieces of information together
07:14:37 <Jafet> But six are not isomorphic to none
07:14:42 <shachaf> So our Where'sTheHole type is equivalent to a boolean.
07:15:09 <Sgeo> Although you would need more data for larger tuples I guess, hmm.
07:15:23 <shachaf> seven isomorphic trees in a single 24-hour rotation
07:15:35 <shachaf> Bike: OK, so now let's say we had a bigger tuple:
07:15:52 <Bike> presumably an n-tuple with one hole could just use a mod-n integer, sgeo.
07:16:20 <shachaf> OK, so now let's say we had Either
07:16:27 <shachaf> You know how Either works?
07:16:28 <Jafet> The so-called scientific authorities babble that 24 is not divisible by 7. They want to eat your children.
07:16:41 <Bike> Probably I do, yes.
07:16:48 <shachaf> Hmm, I think Jafet should finish this explanation.
07:17:55 <Jafet> I have already supplied the logical conclusion
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07:55:35 <kmc> there should be a sim game where you fly the giant stone head from Zardoz
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16:53:33 <Taneb> That, by far. was my most successful game of Brogue
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17:56:06 <oerjan> i find it somewhat disturbing that shachaf keeps hallucinating me
17:56:47 <oerjan> Taneb: he keeps greeting me when i'm not here
17:57:37 <oerjan> shachaf: ARE YOU SURE I'M REALLY HERE
17:58:16 <oerjan> also, Proxy transformers are ugly :(
17:59:40 <oerjan> i assume tekmo has some technical reason not to use the ordinary transformers, but eww
18:00:07 <oerjan> (also StateP should _not_ split the state across >->, eww)
18:01:07 <oerjan> yes it is and it has been discussed on reddit. but that's not my main point anyway.
18:02:06 <oerjan> although i _do_ like the runIdentityP trick for getting shorter contexts, but that function needs a shorter name
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18:44:47 <kmc> fizzie: oh, you are at aalto.fi, right?
18:44:54 <kmc> i just realized http://tsunami-udp.sourceforge.net/ is from there
18:45:38 <fizzie> I have a friend at the Metsähovi place too.
18:47:49 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
18:51:15 <fizzie> Doing his master's thesis, the topic of which I keep forgetting. (I've forgotten it again.)
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19:08:02 <oerjan> <Bike> you. made an emacs mode?
19:08:22 <HackEgo> 270) <ais523> elliott: hey, thinking's easier than using the Internet
19:08:36 <HackEgo> 233) <ais523> OK, I give up, logging into Wikia is harder than writing a Firefox extension
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19:08:57 <oerjan> ais523 does strange things
19:09:16 <HackEgo> 836) <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
19:09:34 <HackEgo> 837) <elliott> seriously q is the best fucking letter in the alphabet
19:09:49 <HackEgo> 836) <oerjan> `welcome Rawlie * zzo38 has joined #esoteric <Rawlie> thank you <zzo38> You're welcome.
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19:11:24 <shachaf> I'm not sure how I got all that karma.
19:11:27 <oerjan> shachaf has a full deck
19:11:30 <shachaf> Did someone write a script or something?
19:11:41 <Taneb> shachaf shall be reincarnated as king
19:12:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `more' failed with: thread killed
19:12:02 <shachaf> See? There's no way I should be at 52.
19:12:22 <kmc> lambdabot++
19:12:25 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
19:13:04 <oerjan> ^ul ((shachaf-- )S:^):^ *MWAHAHAHAHA*
19:13:05 <fungot> shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shachaf-- shac ...too much output!
19:13:26 <shachaf> oerjan: That was excessive. :-(
19:13:33 <oerjan> ^ul ((shachaf++ )S:^):^ *MWAHAHAHAHA*
19:13:34 <fungot> shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shac ...too much output!
19:14:08 <nortti> ^ul ((shachaf++ )S:^):^
19:14:09 <fungot> shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shachaf++ shac ...too much output!
19:15:21 <Taneb> ^ul ((shachaf++ shachaf--)S:^):^
19:15:21 <fungot> shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--shachaf++ shachaf--s ...too much output!
19:15:32 <lambdabot> shachaf--shachaf has a karma of 16
19:15:47 <shachaf> @@ @@ (concat $ replicate 100 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:15:47 <lambdabot> (concat $ replicate 100 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:15:54 <Taneb> For that I shall leave forever
19:15:54 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run concat $ replicate 100 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:15:56 <lambdabot> "(@karma+ nortti) (@karma+ nortti) (@karma+ nortti) (@karma+ nortti) (@karm...
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19:16:05 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@read (@run concat $ replicate 100 "(@karma+ nortti) "))
19:16:07 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
19:16:12 <shachaf> @@ @@ @read (@run concat $ replicate 100 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:16:13 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
19:16:15 <shachaf> I've forgotten how to do it.
19:16:48 <shachaf> @@ (@run concat $ replicate 5 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:16:50 <lambdabot> "(@karma+ nortti) (@karma+ nortti) (@karma+ nortti) (@karma+ nortti) (@karm...
19:17:01 <shachaf> @@ @@ @read (@run concat $ replicate 5 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:17:03 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
19:17:16 <shachaf> @@ @@ @read (@run concat $ replicate 1 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:17:22 <shachaf> @@ @@ @read (@run concat $ replicate 5 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:17:23 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Prelude.read: no parse
19:17:26 <shachaf> @@ @@ @read (@run concat $ replicate 4 "(@karma+ nortti) ")
19:17:28 <lambdabot> nortti's karma raised to 3. nortti's karma raised to 4. nortti's karma raised to 5. nortti's karma raised to 6.
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19:17:40 <shachaf> Hmm, one time I worked out a way to batch those.
19:17:51 <shachaf> @@ @@ @read (@run concat $ replicate 4 "(@karma- nortti) ")
19:17:53 <lambdabot> nortti's karma lowered to 5. nortti's karma lowered to 4. nortti's karma lowered to 3. nortti's karma lowered to 2.
19:18:09 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text $ concat $ replicate 5 "(@karma- nortti) ")
19:18:10 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
19:18:22 <oerjan> no wonder poor lambdabot is overworked
19:18:33 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text $ concat $ replicate 5 (chr 64 : "(karma- nortti) "))
19:18:35 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Missing ')' in nested command
19:18:41 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text $ concat $ replicate 4 (chr 64 : "(karma- nortti) "))
19:18:42 <lambdabot> nortti's karma lowered to -7. nortti's karma lowered to -8. nortti's karma lowered to -9. nortti's karma lowered to -10.
19:19:06 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text $ concat $ replicate 4 (chr 64 : "(karma+ nortti) "))
19:19:07 <lambdabot> nortti's karma raised to -9. nortti's karma raised to -8. nortti's karma raised to -7. nortti's karma raised to -6.
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19:19:17 <shachaf> I don't remember how it worked. :-(
19:20:09 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@run text $ concat $ replicate 4 (chr 64 : "(karma+ nortti) "))
19:20:11 <lambdabot> nortti's karma raised to -5. nortti's karma raised to -4. nortti's karma raised to -3. nortti's karma raised to -2.
19:20:25 <shachaf> How to do things in lambdabot.
19:21:07 <shachaf> nortti++ # achieved balance
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20:09:42 <FreeFull> @@ @@ (@run text "(karma+ lambdabot)")
20:09:59 <FreeFull> @@ @@ (@run text ":(karma+ lambdabot)")
20:10:37 <FreeFull> @@ @@ (@run text $ chr 64 : "(karma+ lambdabot)")
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20:18:25 <fizzie> I see a karmageddon happened here.
20:20:12 <kmc> 'Commercial hacker hunters -- who refer to the team as the Comment group, for the hidden program code they use known as “comments”'
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21:24:19 <GreyKnight> <kmc> 'Commercial hacker hunters -- who refer to the team as the Comment group, for the hidden program code they use known as “comments”'
21:26:15 <Bike> http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-02/chinas-comment-group-hacks-europe-and-the-world
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21:28:35 <ion> Make <!-- … --> illegal!
21:29:46 <FreeFull> -- But this is a comment too, in some languages
21:30:19 <ion> The aritcle referred to HTML comments specifically. “The collective’s tactic, hacking computers using hidden HTML code known as comments, earned it another name in private security circles: the Comment Group.”
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21:31:31 <GreyKnight> all this technology and we're still using multipage news articles
21:31:37 <GreyKnight> FreeFull: don't forget Whitespace comments!
21:32:04 <FreeFull> GreyKnight: I was thinking brainfuck
21:32:29 <GreyKnight> What are its comments like? Just non-command characters I suppose
21:33:58 <GreyKnight> what's the actual exploit here, anyway
21:36:22 <GreyKnight> injecting JS via an HTML comment form or something?
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22:59:25 <Sgeo> A group I'm part of in Second Life is running a charity drive, but I don't know how to be certain that the money will in fact reach its destination
23:00:11 <olsner> hint: the charity drive is actually money laundering
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23:00:14 <Bike> does givewell have a presence in second life
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23:00:34 <Sgeo> Erm, as in, it's supposed to be going towards a specific charity
23:00:40 <Sgeo> Not as in its acting as a charity in itself
23:02:18 <kmc> so donate to that charity directly yourself
23:02:54 <Sgeo> It would be much easier for me to donate via SL
23:03:16 <Sgeo> So much so that it's pretty much a choice between donating via SL or not donating
23:05:37 <Bike> oh just do it then, at worst you'll just be contributing a bit to some douchebag's jacuzzi
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23:17:08 <Sgeo> ....I donated to the wrong box
23:17:20 <Sgeo> The location has a donation box for keeping the place open too
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23:28:54 <Sgeo> Sent him a message about it, and also donated some money into the charity box
23:31:58 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/7509256/Rush-Limbaugh-warns-that-president-is-becoming-Barack-Hussein-Kardashian-This-is-bad-news-for-Bajorans
23:32:09 * Sgeo is only linking for the DS9 reference
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23:45:14 <hagb4rd> have you ever heard of hollands astronomer cornelis de jager and his satire on pseudo-scientific-religions called "radosophie" (engl. bike-o-sophie)? de jager was able to calculate some of natures physical constants combining some measurements of his bike in simple mathematical formulas
23:50:39 <hagb4rd> to completely understand his approach you need to know holland has more bikes than people living in it
23:51:44 <Bike> Mm, yes, very interesting.
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00:03:05 <kmc> Sgeo: why is it esaier to donate via SL? Is SL already hooked up to some payment mechanism?
00:03:54 <nooodl> hagb4rd: i can't find any reliable source on that
00:04:05 <kmc> de.wikipedia.org has it
00:05:01 <hagb4rd> nooodl: actually it's called cyclosophie in english.. but there are very few english sites providing information on that
00:05:10 <Sgeo> kmc, it's currently rather difficult for me to take my SL money and bring it into RL
00:05:16 <nooodl> what bothers me most is, it *only* exists in german sources
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00:05:33 <nooodl> it doesn't even appear to have a dutch name
00:06:02 <Taneb> nooodl, I have a dutch name
00:06:11 <Taneb> That doesn't mean much
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00:09:41 <oerjan> isn't dutch similar enough to german that the word might work in both?
00:10:22 <hagb4rd> and i believe it's originally called "radosophie"
00:11:33 <hagb4rd> it's translated to cyclosophie but there a very few sources on cyclosophie anyway
00:11:57 <oerjan> google translate seems to think rad means wheel in both
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00:12:53 <hagb4rd> actually rad is wheel but colloquially it means bike
00:14:08 * oerjan wonders what the etymology of that is
00:14:18 <nooodl_> oerjan: literally nobody knows for sure
00:14:30 <nooodl_> there's no cognates for it at all
00:14:48 <nooodl_> wait. whoa what http://www.24oranges.nl/2012/02/23/etymology-of-dutch-word-for-bicycle-cracked-after-140-years/
00:14:55 <oerjan> hm also means machine?
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00:15:41 <hagb4rd> you see the list of mystical facts on the dutch and their bikes is getting longer and longer :D
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00:16:49 <Bike> it's hard to beat "vélocipède", really.
00:20:14 <zzo38> I was playing Dungeons&Dragons game yesterday. We were trying to hide in the storage room, but we got chased around by all over the place, by guards, invisible wizards, an undead shadow, the wizard who was invisible was putting candles on the floor and eventually made some spell to light the fire much bigger...
00:23:46 <zzo38> It is a little bit like a game of chess. But, this game is much more complicated and has incomplete information, as well as nearly everything else different.
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00:30:30 <zzo38> I managed to reverse the hinge on a door to prevent it from opening; I was trying to change it so that it would open into the hallway instead of opening into the room, but now it doesn't open at all. Well, at least this helps a bit.
00:33:12 <kmc> Sgeo: oh, you can donate SL money, i see
00:33:48 <kmc> my friend says in NL it is common to have two bikes, one at each end of your commute by train
00:35:25 <kmc> i guess this is needed because cities in NL don't have dense rapid transit networks
00:40:46 <kmc> wheeee template templates
00:41:04 <kmc> template <class A, template <class> class B> class C
00:45:05 <hagb4rd> often used that to build some kind of dictionary of dictionaries for example
00:45:47 <hagb4rd> mutidimensional dictionaries
00:49:43 <fizzie> That's just using a template class as the type parameter of a class template, not a template template thing?
00:51:16 <fizzie> I don't know how template templates work, so I can't answer that. But you certainly don't write something like that just to make a map< string, map<string, string> >.
00:51:16 <kmc> map<a, map<b, v> > is not template templates
00:51:32 <kmc> because map<b, v> is a fully instantiated type
00:51:48 <kmc> template templates lets you do things like Foo<a, map>
00:51:58 <kmc> where the body of Foo then gets to instantiate 'map' however it wants
00:52:03 <kmc> and you could pass in some other two-argument template there
00:52:38 <kmc> if I have template <class A, template <class> class B> class C
00:53:08 <kmc> then within C i can use B<int>, B<A>, B< B<A> >, etc.
00:53:29 <kmc> and the code that uses C gets to decide which template B ultimately is
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00:54:03 <kmc> this corresponds to higher-kinded types in Haskell
00:54:12 <kmc> type constructors that take other type constructors as arguments
00:54:17 <kmc> :k ReaderT
00:54:50 <Jafet> "Very nice, but does g++ have it"
00:57:29 <kmc> template templates? yes
00:57:42 <kmc> they're a standard C++98 feature i believe
00:58:36 <Jafet> Well, there is at least one C++98 feature that no one supports
00:58:53 <kmc> ok, fair enough
00:59:10 <Jafet> Except the edison people who get paid millions of dollars to implement C++98
00:59:34 <Jafet> And I believe people who buy their compilers then turn it off
00:59:55 <kmc> is this the precompiled templates or whatever?
01:00:25 <etb> template templates?
01:00:26 <Jafet> Templatium exportium
01:00:52 <kmc> etb: template templates are what we were discussing above
01:01:04 <kmc> they are widely implemented afaik
01:01:32 * etb looks in the logs
01:02:55 <hagb4rd> i believe the notation of this simplified by generics in c#
01:03:21 <etb> give it to me raw
01:04:10 <etb> wow, it works
01:04:18 <etb> template<class A, template<class> class B> class C { }; int main(){}
01:07:05 <kmc> template <template <template <class> class> class T> class C {};
01:07:55 <Jafet> This is like python at the type level
01:07:59 <etb> how do you instantiate it?
01:08:21 <etb> C<vector<vector<int>>> x?
01:08:37 <kmc> int, vector<int>, and vector<vector<int>> are all ordinary types
01:08:49 <kmc> they aren't uninstantiated templates
01:09:21 <kmc> with that C and "template <template <class> class T> class D {};" you could then use C<D>
01:09:25 <Bike> kmc, you're making me want to find that book on template metaprogramming. make it stop
01:10:29 <kmc> likewise with that D you could do D<std::set> or any other one-argument template
01:10:35 <Jafet> @google c++ template metaprogramming abrahams
01:10:36 <lambdabot> http://www.amazon.com/Template-Metaprogramming-Concepts-Techniques-Beyond/dp/0321227255
01:10:42 <kmc> though std::set also has some default template arguments and I don't know how that interacts
01:12:00 <kmc> you could imagine that D implement some high-level algorithm, and you tell it what data structure template to use
01:12:20 <kmc> maybe D<std::list> is more efficient in some cases and D<std::vector> is better in other cases
01:12:40 <kmc> but D can just use T<float> and T<int> and whatever, and not care whether T is list or vector
01:12:54 <kmc> so long as the way it uses T is compatible with both
01:13:21 <Jafet> But I presume you can pass template typedefs as parameters
01:13:33 <kmc> of course that idea of templates conforming to some interface does not exist inside the language, it's a matter of documenting method signatures and such
01:13:40 <kmc> they were going to add it to the language for C++11 but ultimately did not
01:13:47 <Jafet> using template <class T> vector1 = vector <T>;
01:14:05 <kmc> template instantiation is totally duck-typed which is kinda funny
01:14:15 <Jafet> Python at the type level
01:14:29 <kmc> a dynamically typed language at compile time and a statically typed language at run time
01:14:32 <kmc> what a country
01:14:47 <kmc> of course it would just be TOO INSANE to have a language where the metalanguage is the same language you already know
01:15:04 <kmc> so let's keep inventing shitty half-baked metalanguages and then hacking them to do unexpected things
01:15:11 <olsner> also that it's turing complete at compile time but not at runtime
01:15:33 <Bike> ope, and with that the interest is dead. artful
01:15:39 <kmc> what do the C++ standards say about maximum template expansion depth
01:15:52 <kmc> if they allow implementations to set a max depth (which they all do) then it's not TC at compile time either
01:16:15 <olsner> ah, yes, there is that ... hopefully it merely allows a max depth to exist
01:19:20 <oerjan> u cannot use the same language as the metalanguage bcs gödel's theorem duh
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01:24:19 <etb> what's wrong with template language?
01:24:53 <zzo38> What I think is wrong with it is how it uses < >
01:25:35 <kmc> it's just not a good language for writing general purpose metaprograms
01:25:49 <kmc> getting even basic data structures in your metalanguage is annoying
01:26:40 <kmc> and compilers implement it very poorly, with horrible error messages
01:27:08 <kmc> and you can't really inspect the structure of your template arguments, which rules out a lot of useful metaprograms
01:27:24 <kmc> i can't write a template that takes some other class and serializes it to JSON using the names of its data members as strings
01:27:48 <kmc> C++ templates are okay for generic data structures and other very simple metaprograms, which is what they were designed for
01:28:24 <Bike> why would you do that in a template?
01:28:50 <kmc> well it's pretty clearly a metaprogram, at least in a static language
01:29:02 <kmc> you read the description of some data structure and then you emit code which serializes that data structure
01:29:11 <kmc> templates are the only popular form of metaprogramming in C++
01:29:28 <Bike> i suppose qt's... stuff, doesn't count
01:29:37 <kmc> maybe it does actually
01:29:42 <kmc> i have heard of this stuff but don't know much about it
01:29:57 <kmc> there are some other extensions to C++
01:30:16 <kmc> and you can write custom preprocessors
01:30:18 <Jafet> I wonder how the vampire hunting language is developing
01:30:20 <kmc> and custom compiler passes
01:30:22 <Bike> well, i think it allows enough introspection of classes to do json serialization, but i don't think it's at compile time
01:30:27 <kmc> but it's a pretty bad situtaion
01:31:12 <kmc> especially since C++ is so rigid and static that you really want metaprogramming
01:32:01 <kmc> of course a lot of C++ programmers think that metaprogramming is synonymous with template metaprogramming
01:32:23 <kmc> they can't even conceive of a language where you can write -straightforward- programs that manipulate other programs
01:32:53 <etb> even template metaprogramming is looked down upon by some foolish c++ programmers
01:35:23 <kmc> well they are right to look down on it, because it's cumbersome and annoying
01:35:46 <kmc> but it's fallacious to conclude that metaprogramming in general is simply beyond human understanding and we should all write boilerplate all day
01:36:24 <kmc> as usual, the existence of a popular, bad implementation of an idea is enough to damn the idea entirely
01:36:49 <kmc> MySQL sucks, therefore relational databases suck
01:37:03 <kmc> Python and Ruby suck at threading, therefore threads are a horrible and useless concept
01:37:11 <kmc> rantrantrant
01:37:20 <etb> i see what you mean. it's a shame :(
01:37:30 <Bike> have you worked out that python threading business yet?
01:37:51 <Bike> the one you've been intermittently complaining about
01:37:56 <etb> though, i am personally at least lukewarm to C++ templates. they leave something to be desired, but i like them so far
01:38:05 <kmc> Bike: probably not, then
01:38:07 <Bike> also: i wonder if this is why my python-user friend was so big on me not using threads
01:38:57 <kmc> well you should not use threads in python
01:39:18 <Bike> i mean, maybe he got a(n especially) bad impression of them from python.
01:39:21 <zzo38> Can we make a better preprocessor for C which runs after the C preprocessor?
01:39:23 <kmc> yes, most likely
01:39:41 <zzo38> Is there a way to tell GCC to add a step after the preprocessor?
01:39:43 <Jafet> The python threading business is that python does not implement threads correctly
01:39:56 <Jafet> Also, they don't want to implement threads correctly, ever
01:39:58 <kmc> it's kind of sad that GHC has put all this effort into an actually good implementation of shared-memory multiprocessing, and the rest of the world has just decided that shared-memory multiprocessing is a lost cause
01:40:28 <kmc> history has passed them by
01:40:29 <Jafet> zzo: you can override what preprocessor gcc uses
01:41:03 <kmc> they've also put all this effort into a statically-typed language where the type system doesn't hate you, and the rest of the world has decided that type systems are a lost cause
01:41:22 <kmc> anyway this is a pointless rant
01:41:24 <Bike> you feelin' down, kmc?
01:41:30 <etb> is it possible to have code executed at compile time during template expansion?
01:41:38 <zzo38> Jafet: I want to make it still use the C preprocessor but to add something else afterward; perhaps if the other program knows where the real C preprocessor is then it can use that with it.
01:41:58 <Jafet> Pass a shellscript that runs cpp
01:42:01 <kmc> etb: C++ code? no. template code? yes
01:42:02 <Bike> can't you just pipe gcc -E through whatever
01:42:25 <FreeFull> I don't understand monads as well as I should
01:42:38 <Jafet> Bike: gcc can compile multiple TUs at once, so a pipe won't work
01:42:39 <kmc> etb: but the compiler *is* free to evaluate constant expressions at compile time, and C++11's constexpr keyword greatly expands the scope of that
01:42:47 <FreeFull> Why does it print "moomoomoo" rather than "moo"
01:43:21 <zzo38> FreeFull: It is like (join ("moo" <$ [5,5,3])) = (join ["moo","moo","moo"])
01:43:22 <Bike> free to? so it doesn't have to.
01:43:27 <kmc> FreeFull: look at the definition of (>>=) for "instance Monad []"
01:43:52 <Jafet> You can force it to
01:43:57 <kmc> which is... somewhere
01:44:03 <Jafet> Leather cuffs and paddle optional
01:44:42 <zzo38> x >>= f = join (fmap f x); x >> y = x >>= \_ -> y; therefore [5,5,3] >> "moo" = [5,5,3] >>= \_ -> "moo" = join (fmap (\_ -> "moo") [5,5,3])
01:44:59 <Jafet> int a[fact<10>::value];
01:45:05 <zzo38> FreeFull: To me that is how I can understand why it does that.
01:45:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong! You cheating scum!
01:45:19 <kmc> sorry that i can't find it
01:45:32 <etb> i'm picturing a system in which `using x = T<int>; using y = T<int>;` will be like `using x = T<int,0>; using y = T<int,1>;` so that the expression `x = y;` results in a compile-time error
01:45:39 <etb> harder types!
01:46:27 <zzo38> Yes, it is like concatMap
01:46:31 <Jafet> etb: dude, you can't do that in a pure language like C++
01:46:37 <Jafet> It doesn't make sense
01:46:58 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
01:47:03 <kmc> > [1,2,3] >>= (\x -> [x*10, x*100])
01:47:14 <kmc> FreeFull: ^^^ do you understand why it does this?
01:47:17 <Jafet> C++ is a pure functional language
01:47:41 <zzo38> FreeFull: A monad mathematically may be defined two ways, either fmap return join or return =<< and Haskell normally does it by return >>=
01:47:44 <Jafet> You can probably, however, implement a state monad at the type level or something
01:47:51 <zzo38> But either way it defines the same monad.
01:47:56 <kmc> > [1,2,3] >>= (\x -> ['m', 'o', 'o'])
01:47:59 <etb> you can do everything i said after "will be like"
01:48:53 <zzo38> So in the list monad that is what happen; join = concat; fmap = map; return x = [x]; x >>= f = concatMap f x = concat (map f x); and it follow the monad laws (such as (>>= return) = id) so it work.
01:48:57 <Jafet> Actually x = y is a compile error because it's not an expression
01:49:21 <etb> i mean x a, y b; a = b;
01:49:49 <Jafet> That's also a compile error
01:50:01 <etb> ; instead of , :P
01:50:18 <Jafet> Then it depends on which operator= is defined
01:50:25 <zzo38> The other way would be by join = (>>= id) and fmap f x = x >>= return . f; so it recovers either way. There are many different kind of monad, as long as they follow the monad laws.
01:50:46 <kmc> most things could be
01:50:54 <kmc> AIDS could be worse
01:51:18 <etb> right, except using x and using y both = T<int>; then it will use the default assignment operator unless you overwrote it
01:51:28 <etb> except if *
01:53:16 <etb> i'm saying that the user-defined type system breaks down when you want to use the same POD to mean two different things
01:53:23 <Jafet> T<int> is always the same type. How would you feel if it suddenly went off and became another type?
01:53:52 <etb> i would feel ok with it if there were a way to specify that you want that to happen
01:53:55 <Jafet> It's pretty important that C++ is a pure, functional language.
01:54:32 <etb> such as with using
01:55:35 <Jafet> Actually, the preprocessor is a PSPACE-complete sequential state machine, so you could use that to generate newtypes
01:56:26 <etb> the case where this would matter is here: void calc_something(feet_per_second); /* ... */ meters_per_second x = 9.0; calc_something(x); // duh
01:56:34 <etb> Jafet: oh?
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01:58:04 <Jafet> Why would templates matter
01:58:42 <etb> cause they would be used as a wrapper for a POD
01:59:14 <Jafet> Why do you need some crazy mutable state
01:59:33 <etb> they wouldn't matter actually if you could just using fps_value = double; or whatever and have it mean something
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02:01:48 <Jafet> typedef meter = make_unit <"meter">::type; typedef second = make_unit <"second">::type; typedef meter_per_second = unit_mul <meter, unit_recip <second>>::type;
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02:05:20 <etb> now we're talking
02:06:50 <etb> const char* for template parameter?
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02:08:11 <Jafet> template <char const* U> struct make_unit { /* HOMEWORK */ };
02:08:33 <etb> error: '"Hello"' is not a valid template argument for type 'const char*' because string literals can never be used in this context
02:09:16 <Jafet> Your compiler sucks
02:09:28 <Jafet> I'm not sure if this works across TUs, though
02:10:07 <etb> gcc 4.7.0 lol?
02:10:37 <olsner> I think you can give it the address of an extern symbol
02:10:37 <etb> what compiler do you use?
02:12:11 <Jafet> http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3496/3994758072_8c05cbb55b.jpg
02:13:26 <Jafet> Okay, so you can only pass strings with extern linkage
02:13:35 <Jafet> So it will always work across TUs
02:13:49 <Jafet> C++, always protecting the programmer from mistakes
02:16:25 <etb> except failing :(
02:16:28 <etb> surely we can agree there
02:19:18 <etb> who said otherwise? it can't protect programmers from mistakes
02:45:34 <Sgeo> Is PLAI considered a good book?
02:47:45 <Sgeo> "and it makes the book a poor reference guide (you cant open up to a random page and be sure what it says is correct)."
02:47:51 <Sgeo> ^^from the book
02:48:33 <Bike> the programming langage book..... of lies
02:49:33 <Sgeo> "We will include mistakes, not because I dont know the answer, but because this is the best way for you to learn. Including mistakes makes it impossible for you to read passively: you must instead engage with the material, because you can never be sure of the veracity of what youre reading."
02:49:46 <olsner> Programming with Lies And Incorrectness
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03:02:20 <kmc> "Plain text is software and operating system agnostic. It’s searchable, portable, lightweight and easily manipulated.... Since it’s been around since the dawn of computing, it’s safe to say it’s completely future-proof."
03:02:21 <Sgeo> Racket's custodian stuff is pretty neat
03:02:53 <Bike> kmc: does that predate unicode or no?
03:03:14 <kmc> https://github.com/ginatrapani/todo.txt-cli/wiki/The-Todo.txt-Format
03:03:29 <Sgeo> kmc, well, in fairness, I think it is safe to say that if current models of text become outdated, there will be converters
03:03:43 <Sgeo> I'm sure there's EBIKLSJDFKLJSF->ASCII somewhere
03:03:50 <kmc> i don't think it would be any better if it predated Unicode
03:03:55 <kmc> there were many text formats back then
03:04:10 <Bike> of course not, was just curious if it was something in unix's design philosophy or whatever
03:04:32 <Bike> Sgeo: even better, there's unicode ebcdic.
03:04:57 <kmc> UTF-EBCDIC
03:05:03 <Bike> for dealing with the software that still uses ebcdic, of course.
03:05:07 <kmc> for the same reason as UTF-8 I expect
03:05:20 <kmc> "Its advantages for existing EBCDIC-based systems are similar to UTF-8's advantages for existing ASCII-based systems."
03:06:02 <kmc> anyway there's no such thing as "plain text", that concept only exists in the mind of english speakers :)
03:06:16 <Sgeo> Why does EBCDIC still exist?
03:06:27 <Bike> nah i'm pretty sure europeans or whoever don't actually need all those line dealies around their letters
03:06:27 <Sgeo> Next you'll tell me that COBOL programmers make a lot of money
03:06:48 <Bike> Sgeo: modern cobol is apparently a pretty good language, i've heard. used in banks and all
03:07:04 <Sgeo> The latter point does not support the former point.
03:07:26 <Bike> well, read "pretty good" as "better than what you imagine cobol to be based on horror stories from the 70s"
03:07:47 <Sgeo> Does it have non-global variables yet?
03:07:54 <Sgeo> (Actually, I think it does?)
03:07:56 <Bike> i think it's even object oriented
03:08:05 <Bike> anyway it's just the same as legacy anything, you may as well ask why English still uses "'s" to indicate the possessive
03:09:04 <Jafet> It's status's above reproach
03:09:36 <Bike> jokes are hard.
03:10:01 <NihilistDandy> I couldn't tell if it was intentional and that was the joke, or the right way was supposed to be the joke.
03:10:15 <Bike> it works either way! that's why it's a good joke.
03:10:30 <Bike> «"it's"'s status's above reproach», there, grammar
03:10:46 <Bike> except that doesn't actually mean the same thing! language is a trip
03:11:19 <kmc> there's a lot of code written for these mainframes
03:11:21 <kmc> it works fine
03:11:25 <kmc> it has had the bugs ironed out over decades
03:11:53 <kmc> open source and startup types want to rewrite everything from scratch every 2 years for fun
03:11:59 <kmc> but that's very much not how banks and the like work
03:12:01 <kmc> for good reason
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03:12:28 <Bike> great now i'm going to be thinking of startup people in the same category that i put esperantists in
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03:13:34 <Sgeo> I no longer like Racket Custodians
03:13:39 <Bike> (but english is so illogical! "though"!!!)
03:14:02 <Sgeo> They error if you close one that's not managing anything
03:14:05 <kmc> also these 40 year old mainframes have features -- hard-core virtualization, fault tolerance, auditing, management, etc. -- that commodity PC hardware is only starting to catch up to
03:14:30 <Jafet> The best batch processing ever, dude
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03:31:05 <DHeadshot> I should learn APL one of these days - it seems like a good idea from a historical perspective...
03:31:16 <kmc> startup types love to feel superior about how much more "agile" they are, but a lot of it comes down to different risk / reward structures
03:31:24 <kmc> nobody really cares if twitter is down for 2 minutes
03:31:37 <kmc> but if VISA is down for 2 minutes, or charges everyone $1 more than they should have, that's a big fucking deal
03:32:36 <kmc> so yeah I'm glad the banks aren't rushing out to rewrite everything in agile rails at a red bull fueled hackathon
03:33:35 <kmc> nuclear power plant software rewritten in node.js coffescript
03:33:39 <kmc> civilization collapses
03:33:57 <Bike> DHeadshot: it's pretty easy to find the book online.
03:34:29 <kmc> http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol2_1/tpj0201-0004.html "Perl and Nuclear Weapons Don't Mix"
03:35:31 <Jafet> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/08/us_navy_linux_drones/
03:35:45 <Bike> is this going to be a floating point thing
03:35:53 <kmc> Jafet: nice
03:36:06 <Bike> associativity, even better.
03:36:28 <kmc> i look forward to hackers taking over these drones using built-in support for the Econet protocol or the Rez Trance Vibrator
03:36:53 <Bike> terrorism's gonna get even more fun
03:37:08 <kmc> that's the plot of call of duty modern warfare 2
03:37:16 <Bike> don't remind me
03:37:18 <Jafet> That sounds better than UAV bombers with ILOVEYOU virus
03:37:22 <kmc> wait not that one
03:37:34 <kmc> black ops 2
03:37:35 <Bike> anyway, this guy assumed exponentiation is left associative? i thought everyone used it right associatively
03:37:44 <Bike> (where "everyone" = "people who seriously chain exponentiation")
03:37:51 <Fiora> "That's a big problem when your $a, or 2 * ($p - $p0) / $rho in my code, is about two million, your $b is 0.52, and your $c is 2. Perl ends up disagreeing with physics by a factor of more than four, and in such battles physics wins. This error went undetected as my Perl code was translated into C using the Perl Compiler, from C into machine code, and then was burned into missile EPROMs. Six weeks later, the missiles were interred in
03:37:52 <kmc> "Menendez is successfully captured, but this was a ruse for Menendez to hack into the U.S. military's computer infrastructure on the aircraft carrier the U.S.S. Obama, seizing control the the United States' entire drone fleet"
03:37:56 <kmc> bahahahaha
03:38:27 <kmc> "The US government can directly combine GPL and proprietary/classified software into a single program arbitrarily, as long as the result is never conveyed outside the U.S. government"
03:38:29 <Bike> "U.S.S. Obama"
03:38:33 <Bike> you're not serious
03:38:39 <kmc> cool, the US government has realized what Google and friends realized a long time ago
03:38:53 <kmc> which is that open source is great if you are a big org that can do all modifications in-house
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03:40:49 <Sgeo> I guess Haskell's =~ is also bad
03:40:53 <Sgeo> (Reading article now)
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03:41:27 <Bike> this reminds me a bit of that aritlce on NORAD's response to 9/11
03:45:54 <Sgeo> "Ray Piodasoll no longer works for NORAD in Colorado Springs, but occasionally writes articles intended to be published in April, toward the beginning of the month."
03:47:22 <lightquake> http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol3_1/tpj0301-0010.html
03:47:28 <lightquake> "For users with typing - aggravated injuries, the Perl Machine comes with three foot pedals, for $, @, and %."
03:50:10 <kmc> that's no joke
03:50:22 <kmc> my coworker has the 3 foot pedal add-on for the Kinesis contoured keyboard
03:56:46 <DHeadshot> A CyKey would make much more sense...
03:58:13 <kmc> skeptical of the claim that CyKey can be learned up to speed within a few hours
03:58:17 <kmc> but yeah, chording keyboards are cool
03:58:46 <DHeadshot> Or, y'know, a better programming language, given the limitations of scripting languages...
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04:02:27 <tbc> Any fans of the TV show Elementary here?
04:03:28 <NihilistDandy> Haven't watched it. I can't imagine it topping Sherlock.
04:05:26 <tbc> It's an interesting take on the Holmes character. I popped in here because Malbolge was part of the plot in the episode titled The Leviathan.
04:05:32 <kmc> is this a show where they solve mysteries but each episode also revolves around a particular element of the periodic table?
04:05:44 <kmc> i would watch that
04:05:54 <Bike> oh, hey, the malbolge thing was brought up here before
04:06:21 <tbc> Well, I googled it, found esolang.org, and popped in to say hi.
04:06:49 <tbc> I watched it on DVR, so i guess I'm behind.
04:06:56 <Bike> guh, bots are hard.
04:07:02 <tbc> Thanks, Bike.
04:07:16 <HackEgo> tbc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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04:08:03 <Bike> i wonder if getting onto BBC constitutes deployment
04:08:08 <elliott> i hear someone watched that malbolge episode
04:08:35 <tbc> Hey, elliott.
04:09:22 <elliott> I should grep the wiki logs to see if I can find out where the people behind it looked at the article on Malbolge, assuming they used the wiki
04:10:10 <Bike> did they actually use information they couldn't have just guessed from the wikipedia article?
04:10:19 <tbc> Might be hard to correlate.
04:10:28 <monqy> well malbolge is--yes it's ``notable'' enough to have a wikipedia article
04:11:46 <elliott> I think the wikipedia article is a bit copied from ours
04:11:49 <tbc> Grr. I already deleted the episode. I should have transcribed the frame where they showed a fragment of a Malobolge program. It was a romping story.
04:12:02 <monqy> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-English-based_programming_languages wow what a list
04:12:05 <kmc> wikipedia says it's the hello world program from wikipedia
04:12:08 <kmc> with some arbitrary changes
04:12:09 <zzo38> tbc: Do you remember some about it?
04:12:19 <Bike> thanks, wikipedia
04:12:21 <elliott> I should actually watch that I guess
04:12:31 <tbc> zzo38 about the episode, you mean?
04:12:50 <tbc> I just finished watching it. Why do you ask?
04:12:53 <Bike> «Hindawi Programming System (hereafter referred to as HPS) is a suite of open source programming languages. It allows non-English medium literates to learn and write computer programs.» "literates"
04:13:13 <monqy> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%B6lnir_(programming_language) an exciting new world of programming languages i cant read
04:13:35 <Bike> "HPS uses Romenagri transliteration to first convert the high level source code into a compiler acceptable format and then uses an existing compiler to produce machine code." ...transliteration?
04:13:37 <zzo38> tbc: Because I am curious what they did with malbolge.
04:16:20 <tbc> zzo38 to summarize: The story was about a copycat breakin to a high security vauilt called Leviathan. Malbolge was the original mastermind's choice for cracking the RNG portion of the vault's secuirty system. Total Hollywood. But it made me curious about Malbolge. Other than the fact that the language is impractical, they did a decent job of representing it.
04:17:39 <tbc> It only played a small part of the plot. But crucial. Relied on a software engineer recognizing a Malbolge program printed on a scrap of paper.
04:18:32 <tbc> A good excuse to watch the episode. I'd never heard of the language or esolang.org. So I'm glad I dropped by.
04:18:36 <tbc> (Here, I mean.)
04:18:48 <Bike> i'm not sure how anyone could reliably distinguish malbolge from line noise (not that line noise is really produced anymore)
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04:19:48 <tbc> Bike, Holmes even made a reference to the crypic nature of the language. Maybe the writers googled "cryptic programming language."
04:20:26 <zzo38> I have seen an article about esoteric programming in some magazine.
04:20:41 <Bike> tbc: heh, intercal is the fourth result for that on google.
04:21:08 <zzo38> My own esolangs seem to be mentioned only in Japanese, somehow.
04:21:42 <Bike> with quotes, it's LOLCODE. glad they didn't go with that
04:21:48 * tbc is using webchat on an iPad and begs forgiveness if his connection goes stale while he shifts focus to another browser tab
04:21:55 <Bike> ooh, and Kvikkalkul, gotta dig that
04:22:34 <zzo38> I like INTERCAL and Kvikkalkul too.
04:25:28 <Sgeo> #' is the functor of the Lisp world.
04:26:02 <Bike> what on earth does that mean
04:26:20 <Sgeo> Every Lisp and its mother uses #' to mean something unrelated from what other Lisps use it for
04:26:32 <Bike> what's racket use it for?
04:26:49 <Sgeo> #'(+ 1 2) is (syntax (+ 1 2)) which is a syntax object
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04:27:40 <tbc> Fascinating. I've never had occasion to use #' in Emacs Lisp.
04:27:50 <Sgeo> <technomancy> Sgeo: elisp uses it to mean "hey everyone, I'm a CL programmer who either doesn't understand that this doesn't do anything in elisp or wants to vaguely protest that fact."
04:27:50 <tbc> FWIW, a few fans twittered about Malbolge this week in connection with Elementary.
04:28:12 <Bike> oh, right, elisp doesn't have reder macros.
04:28:27 <elliott> doesn't the iPad keep tabs properly or something
04:28:33 <elliott> I thought it was just the iPhone browser that was awful at that
04:28:37 <Bike> also, how do you use "functor" for something unrelated, it has a pretty straightforward definition
04:29:03 <Sgeo> Bike, in Prolog, in a term like foo(1, 2), the functor is foo
04:29:21 <shachaf> It's like FUNCTion -- OR is it?
04:29:29 <Sgeo> In Standard ML, it's something to do with the module system, I think, I'm not really sure
04:29:29 <elliott> Bike: ML uses "functor" for "module function"
04:29:32 <tbc> ellliott, I've found Safari on iPad to lose its mind on a regular basis. Bad caching algorithm, IMO. But so far so good. I've been able to jump around and still stay connected.
04:29:39 <elliott> C++ uses it for, um, "closure", more or less
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04:29:54 <Bike> well, that sucks
04:30:00 <shachaf> "things that have operator()"
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04:31:35 <Sgeo> Haskell functions are functors too! See how much C++ and Haskell have in common?
04:32:04 <zzo38> Shouldn't a functor be, a homomorphism from one category to another (possibly same one)?
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04:44:49 * tbc finds the limit to iPad Safari's buffering
04:45:20 <Bike> zzo38: apparently it's not always!
04:45:50 <tbc> Yeah, I had a lot of tabs open. Switched to Chrome now. Hoping that helps. I like to multitask. iPad is wrong platform for me. :)
04:54:16 <tbc> Well, capping off my fascination, http://www.google.com/search?q=malbolge+sherlock points to some good chatter. The first search result includes a screenshot from the show. They just reproduced the hello, world program. Fun.
04:58:10 <elliott> hm, I wonder if Ben Olmstead (the language's inventor) knows
05:00:15 <Sgeo> Racket languages aren't very composable, are they?
05:00:16 <tbc> kmc, I red the log. I didn't see your comment about Wikipedia until now.
05:00:27 <Sgeo> What if I want to use two features from two languages at the same time
05:00:46 <monqy> what does "feature" mean here
05:01:00 <Bike> clearly you need composition-friendly pseudomonadic interpreters
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05:02:39 <Sgeo> Someone actually implemented Racket-style macros in Clojure I think
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05:57:00 <kmc> i don't like racket's macros
05:57:05 <kmc> but i have not used them much
05:57:21 * Sgeo still doesn't have a strong grasp of hygienic macros in general
05:57:33 <Sgeo> And am a bit uncertain of how Racket macros differ from typical Scheme macros
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05:58:21 <kmc> i guess there are two layers
05:58:57 <kmc> the bottom layer lets you manipulate programs as data, but it's fairly cumbersome because the quotation captures lexical scope and other stuff
05:59:10 <kmc> the upper layer is a variety of DSLs to make common macros easier to write
05:59:27 <kmc> i don't like the bottom layer because it's cumbersome and I don't like the top layer because it defeats nearly the entire point of lisp
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06:00:10 <Bike> racket has backquote, doesn't it?
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06:00:14 <Sgeo> Well, only having the top layer but not the bottom layer would me more Lisp-defeaty
06:00:23 <kmc> Bike: yeah
06:00:24 <Sgeo> So the bottom layer should be made more ... convenient somehow
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06:00:39 <Bike> hm, so what do you mean by "cumbersome" exactly?
06:01:04 <kmc> well a macro is not supposed to return a naked lisp-style list of symbols and such
06:01:07 <kmc> it's supposed to return a syntax object
06:01:15 <kmc> http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/stx-obj.html
06:01:32 <kmc> which is a more complicated thing that captures a source location and a lexical scope as well
06:01:36 <kmc> and that's how it manages hygeine
06:01:40 <Bike> oh, makes sense
06:02:21 <kmc> that's what this #' syntax gives you
06:02:27 <kmc> i assume there is #` as well, but have not seen it
06:02:47 <kmc> now as it happens Racket does support Lisp-style unhygenic macros, but it's not the preferred system
06:04:03 <kmc> my tentative opinion is that it's not that difficult to maintain hygeine with "unhygenic" macros
06:04:09 <kmc> and they are much simpler to understand
06:04:32 <kmc> and they give you a very direct way to do unhygenic things when that's what you want
06:04:53 <Bike> yeah, i don't think i've really wanted hygenic macros except for one time
06:05:19 <kmc> you need some kind of auto-gensym syntax, which should be in the standard library but is easy enough to implement as a macro, anyway
06:05:34 <Bike> but, and maybe this is just me being naïve, from this article it seems like it'd be pretty easy to make a defmacro wrapper that lets you return lisp-style but wraps it properly in a syntax object
06:05:51 <kmc> yeah i'm not sure
06:06:44 <kmc> i prefer operatives to all of this, but they're pretty far out experimental tech
06:06:50 <kmc> especially as far as efficient implementation goes
06:06:52 <Bike> i can see why you'd want syntax objects, though, I know CL systems have all kinds of weirdness to allow source context information and "de-macrotizing" for debugging
06:07:13 <kmc> here is my little writeup about it: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/04/scheme-without-special-forms.html
06:07:19 <kmc> with links to other stuff
06:07:47 <Bike> i should try implementing kernel again but this time take efficiency more seriously
06:07:49 <kmc> lexically scoped fexprs
06:08:21 <Bike> and i suppose read his thesis instead of just the "standard"
06:08:34 <kmc> i read part of the thesis
06:08:42 <kmc> it's pretty long and rambly though ;P
06:08:46 <Bike> is it about vau?
06:08:58 <kmc> maybe i can implement kernel in pypy and it will magically be fast
06:09:13 * Sgeo goes to read http://www.reddit.com/r/Racket/comments/13cdy9/fear_of_macros_a_macro_tutorial/
06:09:32 <Bike> well, i'm not sure how you'd implement it fast, really. compilation i don't even know how i'd start, and having the lexical environment available arbitrarily seems like it'd inhibit a lot of optimizations
06:09:49 <kmc> handwave JIT compiler
06:09:58 <kmc> in a JIT your optimizations don't need to be sound in general, just in the common case
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06:10:24 <kmc> for example if somebody modifies an environment, you can just throw out compiled code
06:10:43 <Bike> mm, hadn't thought if it that way
06:11:02 <kmc> a good JIT could really kick some ass even on static languages
06:11:28 <kmc> dynamically optimizing for the common case, with stronger assumptions than any static compiler can make
06:11:41 <kmc> you can make those assumptions and then perform constant folding, inlining, dead-code elimination, etc
06:12:09 <kmc> PyPy is based on the observation that an interpreter running inside a tracing JIT sort of magically becomes a tracing JIT itself
06:12:09 <Bike> obviously my compiler powerlevel is not yet high enough :(
06:13:48 <Fiora> you can do a lot of those "optimizations based on the common case" without a JIT too though
06:13:57 <Fiora> like that optimization where you branch based on whether pointers alias or not, with the common case being they don't
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06:14:02 <Fiora> letting the compiler assume they don't alias even though they could
06:14:27 <kmc> for high-level dynamically typed languages, there will be a huge number of paths though
06:14:29 <Bike> kmc: hm, you say you have a cleaner alternative to quote, do you mean eval in operatives everywhere?
06:15:06 <kmc> like all the different types each argument to a function could take
06:15:22 <kmc> Bike: what do you mean?
06:16:03 <Fiora> I suppose you could use a profiler to figure out the most common types for a non-JIT compiler?
06:16:09 <Fiora> but yeah, JIT seems convenient there
06:16:52 <Bike> kmc: "As it happens, quote is used sparingly in Qoppa. There is usually a cleaner alternative, as we'll see."
06:17:04 <Bike> and then "we selectively evaluate using eval, rather than selectively suppressing evaluation using quote."
06:17:34 <Bike> i suppose that does help destroy the hygeine problem though
06:18:54 <kmc> well you don't need quote because you aren't returning code
06:19:11 <kmc> operatives can do the wacky things that macros do, but in a dynamic and direct way, rather than by generating code
06:19:29 <kmc> of course if you want macros you can build them pretty easily
06:19:56 <kmc> operatives are basically hygenic because, since you're not generating code, you're not generating variable names
06:20:07 <Bike> but the reason i tripped up on compiling it was because with macros, that's just a preprocessor, so the compiler only has to special-case special forms (and a few other forms like function calls)
06:20:18 <kmc> there's a big difference between "a list with the symbol 'map' in it" and "a list with the value of the operative we currently call 'map' in it"
06:20:24 <Bike> but with operatives i'm not sure how you could do anything at compile time
06:20:38 <elliott> well, constant folding and inlining
06:20:54 <kmc> handwave magic JIT compiler
06:20:59 <Bike> stop handwaving gah
06:21:08 <kmc> i think a static compiler for an operative-based language would be a really bad idea
06:21:14 <elliott> that's what we do in pl research
06:21:19 <kmc> especially given how JITs are kicking ass in various other fields
06:21:29 <zzo38> I want to make the second C preprocessor with various purposes including that it will delete duplicate definitions, move things out that belong out, make pool strings, and to allow a definition of an object in one place having it to move everything around to the right places for it to do that (for example: lists, functions, name, enum, struct members, etc)
06:21:54 <Bike> greh, it just seems like you ought to be able to do something statically. but i hardly know anything about jits so i'm just in the past probably
06:22:02 <kmc> would you write a static compiler for Lua or JavaScript?
06:22:08 <kmc> sure, you could
06:22:14 <kmc> i don't think it would be that useful
06:22:21 <kmc> i also know hardly anything about JITs
06:22:31 <kmc> i know just enough to be pretty sure that they are the right answer here
06:23:18 <Bike> guess i'll make it even more of a learning experience then
06:23:42 <Fiora> I only know a little about JITs for emulation really which is kinda different
06:23:49 <Fiora> and has slightly more obnoxious speed constraints usually
06:24:12 <Bike> do angry java clients count as obnoxious speed constraints
06:26:14 <kmc> nice somebody already did it in PyPy: https://github.com/timfel/qoppy
06:26:23 <kmc> http://blog.bithug.org/2012/08/qoppa
06:27:22 <zzo38> $macro(linkedlist,x) $type(t) typedef struct t { x data; struct t*next; } t;
06:27:38 <kmc> it's cool that something i made made its way into a talk that was given in berlin
06:27:49 <kmc> berlin is a cool city and this raises my own coolness by transitive property
06:27:50 <zzo38> Would this be OK to you?
06:27:53 <Bike> i'm afraid the misplaced apostrophe has replaced any interest with blind hatred
06:28:20 <elliott> Bike: you should chill and stop caring about that s'tuff
06:28:22 <kmc> they're probably german
06:28:25 <elliott> i did it made my life much better
06:28:31 <elliott> you'll say thank's elliott
06:28:37 <Bike> thank's elliot
06:28:42 <Bike> speaking of which homestuck updated
06:35:51 <kmc> it is mine yeah
06:36:27 <coppro> is it just me or does the qoppa article on wikipedia read like zzo38 wrote it?
06:36:41 <Bike> what, on the letter?
06:36:45 <kmc> maybe i should drop out of society and become an anarcho-crypto-punk-hacker-homeless-bum in berlin
06:36:58 <Bike> but hagb4rd is already here
06:37:08 <kmc> my entirely fair perception is that roughly one out of every five structures in berlin is a hackerspace or a new media art collective
06:37:22 <kmc> so presumably i can find places to stay
06:37:51 <kmc> coppro: i don't see it
06:38:36 <kmc> shachaf: oh, yesterday was the 100th birthday of MUNI!
06:38:51 <elliott> why is there a qoppa article on wikipedia
06:38:58 <kmc> it's a greek letter
06:39:08 <elliott> i thought somehow kmc's language was ~notable~
06:39:44 <kmc> "With only two bucks and a bit of patience, you can hop on some combination of buses, trains and streetcars"
06:39:49 <kmc> uh, all of the trains are streetcars
06:40:03 <Bike> now i'm wondering if anyone's actually made a language called "lambda"
06:40:11 <kmc> maybe it only counts as a streetcar when it's in the street
06:40:12 <NihilistDandy> Sometimes I accidentally click the Simple English Wikipedia link without realizing it and wonder what the hell has happened to it.
06:40:46 <Bike> ooh it can be named after the phage
06:42:25 <NihilistDandy> Bike: Make a theorem prover in Unlambda, call it Ununlambda, and let logic work it out.
06:43:07 <Bike> psh, classical logic
06:46:16 <Bike> «The background chapters also concern themselves not only with how programming languages specify computations (semantics), but with how programming languages influence the way programmers think (psychological bias)» is this what you meant by "rambling", kmc
06:46:32 <kmc> i don't remember which part was rambly, just that i had that impression
06:46:49 <kmc> there's a lot of cool stuff in there, don't get me wrong
06:47:13 <Bike> no i know, i just don't think i want to hear programming people talk about psychological anything too much
06:47:21 <kmc> call it ununnilium
06:47:41 <kmc> Bike: yeah there is the danger of programmers assuming we are experts in everything
06:48:41 <kmc> but it's also easy to lose sight of the fact that practical programming language design is a human-computer interaction problem
06:48:50 <kmc> so maybe some of that perspective is nice
06:48:59 <elliott> what is bike's quote a quote from
06:49:07 <Bike> jshutt's thesis
06:49:44 <Bike> kmc: maybe i'm just cynical wrt programming language designers' ability to solve hci problems
06:50:33 <elliott> cynical wrt programming language designers's ability to solve programming language design problems
06:52:29 <kmc> it does seem that there is something of a disconnect between the people who are obsessed with minor syntactic tweaks to JavaScript and the people who are obsessed with strange theoretical constructs nobody understands
06:52:44 <kmc> you need these groups to get along to make a good language, i think
06:53:08 <kmc> one of the things I like about Haskell is that it gets a lot of "minor" usability things right
06:53:11 <monqy> i dont think i'd be able to get along with anyone obsessed with minor syntactic tweaks to javascript
06:53:15 <kmc> in my untrained opinion
06:53:41 <Bike> monqy: and thus we come to the heart of the problem.
06:53:45 <elliott> i can happily state i will never get along with people who are obsessed about minor syntactic tweaks to javascript
06:53:56 <kmc> and they actually aren't that minor because they are a large part of what makes the language nice to use
06:54:11 <kmc> even if they have nothing to do with purity or monads or whatever
06:55:00 <monqy> nice to use for syntax obsessives!!!!
06:56:21 <Bike> maybe i should just adopt the attitude i have towards spoken language design, and wait for C to grow hylomorphisms by itself
06:57:15 <kmc> like leaving food at the back of the cupbord to see what kind of fungus grows on it
06:57:34 <Bike> i happen to like fungi! so that all works out nicely
06:59:04 <monqy> leave javascript at the back of the cupboard so it grows a syntax i like(maybe some semantics too???)
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06:59:37 <kmc> oh bike left before i could geek out about fungi
07:00:08 <shachaf> monqy: do you like making space leaks go away in haskell
07:00:18 <elliott> kmc: missed connections time
07:00:38 <shachaf> foo xs = evalState (traverse (\d -> do { _ <- get; return d }) xs) () -- doesn't leak
07:00:41 <shachaf> foo xs = evalState (traverse (\d -> do { !_ <- get; return d }) xs) () -- leaks
07:00:58 <monqy> yes you can use the first
07:01:42 <shachaf> The real code has an input list as a state.
07:01:53 <kmc> give up and use deepSeq
07:02:01 <kmc> the opposite of that
07:02:08 <shachaf> And each action takes one element off the input list and returns it.
07:02:14 <shachaf> So it has to be state-strict.
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07:03:21 <monqy> Q: why are you asking me
07:04:08 <shachaf> A: you seem like an expert
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07:06:32 <monqy> ????????????????????
07:11:01 <shachaf> monqy: are you an expert in corepresentable profunctors too
07:12:39 <shachaf> That COMBINING DIAERESIS didn't even COMBINe.
07:14:21 <Jafet> AUTHENTIC DECOMMISSIONED MUSEUM QUALITY DIAERESIS
07:15:41 <shachaf> A Unicode codepoint ought to be able to use all the previous codepoints in its name.
07:15:52 <Jafet> THE HOSPITAL SURPRISE ME WITH DIAERESIS
07:17:39 * Sgeo takes back his anger at Racket custodians. The documentation was poorly worded.
07:28:14 <kmc> shachaf: are the names ASCII in reality?
07:28:43 <Gregor> I think they're ALL UPPER CASE ENGLISH LETTERS PLUS SPACES AND HYPHENS
07:29:07 <zzo38> I think there is "LOW-9" though, is one of the names using digits
07:29:24 <shachaf> Gregor: HYPHEN-MINUSes, you mean.
07:29:32 <zzo38> But most is not using digits.
07:29:54 <Sgeo> http://lists.racket-lang.org/dev/archive/2012-December/011373.html
07:30:15 <ion> Almost all fonts render the HYPHEN-MINUS as a hyphen.
07:30:30 * shachaf isn't sure how they're supposed to be specified.
07:30:48 <shachaf> ion: The thing about HYPHEN-MINUS is that there's a dash between the HYPHEN and the MINUS.
07:30:57 <ion> HYPHEN DASH MINUS
07:31:09 <ion> HYPHEN HYPHEN-MINUS MINUS
07:31:18 <ion> damn, there’s still a HYPHEN-MINUS in the middle.
07:31:25 <ion> HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN-MINUS MINUS MINUS
07:31:45 <shachaf> HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN HYPHEN MINUS MINUS
07:32:03 <Jafet> When they finish decoding the hieroglyphs, we might have a BOULDER DASH.
07:32:28 <shachaf> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/cjb/codepoints.html
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07:34:00 <Jafet> "In 2007, four Apache helicopters were destroyed on the ground by Iraqi insurgent mortar fire; the insurgents had made use of embedded coordinates in web-published photographs (geotagging) taken of the helicopters by soldiers."
07:34:21 <ion> Lenticular brackets! Lens should use these. 【 】 〖 〗 ︗ ︘ ︻ ︼
07:39:15 <kmc> Jafet: haha wow
07:42:33 <shachaf> The two planes 15 and 16, called Supplementary Private Use Area-A and -B (or simply Private Use Area (PUA)) are available for character assignment by parties outside the ISO and the Unicode Consortium. They are used by fonts internally to refer to auxiliary glyphs, for example, ligatures and building blocks for other glyphs. Such characters will have limited interoperability. Software and fonts that support Unicode will not necessarily ...
07:42:39 <shachaf> ... support character assignments by other parties.
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07:55:31 <kmc> i read that ISO 10646 initially allocated some private use areas in the range beyond Unicode
07:55:47 <kmc> #fail #wtf #iso10646facts
07:57:18 <shachaf> I would join #iso10646facts if it was a real channel.
07:58:41 <shachaf> kmc: How's your web-based IRC replacement thing?
08:01:54 <shachaf> λ> :t let fromInteger = id in 5
08:01:59 <kmc> shachaf: it's going
08:02:19 <kmc> we have various groups using it
08:02:30 <kmc> it's not widely available yet
08:04:57 <quintopia> Jafet: we can already make a BOLDER DASH
08:06:55 <shachaf> kmc: Does your laptop have "nvidia optimus"?
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08:31:32 <zzo38> In this Dungeons&Dragons game, the candles lit fire much bigger, but we managed to escape through a hole into the next room, with tables where some people were playing cards. I have several idea what to do next; do you know?
08:34:17 <zzo38> That was one of my ideas but I have other things which I can do first.
08:34:23 <zzo38> I already prevented the door from opening.
08:34:59 <kmc> shachaf: no
08:35:16 <kmc> it has "intel adequacy"
08:35:19 <zzo38> I intend to use "Control Sound", to make the screaming in the room with the fire.
08:35:41 <shachaf> kmc: I wish I had "intel adequacy" :-(
08:35:49 <kmc> what do you have?
08:46:44 <Sgeo> What happens when I want to mix the laziness of Racket's lazy language with the static typing of Typed Racket?
08:47:08 <shachaf> Maybe #clojure would know.
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10:17:45 <coppro> I wanted to get a book on english grammar so I asked a finn
10:21:32 <coppro> it's a goron smiley face, duh
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11:32:27 <Sgeo> kmc, Racket's defmacro does basically take the sexp->sexp function and wrap it around syntax->datum and ... the other direction
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11:54:50 <coppro> "Heavy water is the only known chemical substance that affects the period of circadian oscillations, consistently increasing the length of each cycle. The effect is seen in unicellular organisms, green plants, isopods, insects, birds, mice, and hamsters."
11:59:23 <Jafet> What are you buffer than?
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12:10:28 <Sgeo> Being able to change the semantics of function application sounds fun
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13:37:55 <mroman> For any sets a,b,c: if (a n b) != 0 ^ (a n c) != 0 ^ (b n c) != 0 can one conclude (a n b n c) != 0 (n = intersection, 0 = empty set)?
13:39:56 <lambdabot> Data.IntMap intersection :: IntMap a -> IntMap b -> IntMap a
13:39:56 <lambdabot> Data.IntSet intersection :: IntSet -> IntSet -> IntSet
13:39:56 <lambdabot> Data.Set intersection :: Ord a => Set a -> Set a -> Set a
13:42:07 <elliott> No instance for (Arbitrary (Set a0))
13:43:35 <elliott> mroman: quickcheck is unable to disprove that statement, at least
13:44:46 <elliott> let's see. say (intersection a b) has element x. then if (intersection b c) has element x, then so does intersection a (intersection b c)
13:45:17 <elliott> if (intersection b c) does not have element x, then c does not have element x (since we know b does)
13:45:46 <elliott> yet I think this cannot be true for *all* x
13:45:51 <elliott> otherwise (intersection a b) would be empty
13:46:18 <elliott> mroman: um, I'm too tired.
13:46:28 <elliott> ask anyone who isn't sleep deprived and they'll tell you the trivial answer
13:49:42 <AnotherTest> because (a n b) ^ (a n c) = (a ^ b) ^ (a ^ c)
13:51:12 * elliott doesn't see why a ^ b ^ a ^ c couldn't be 0 there.
13:51:27 <elliott> (as in, I doubt your specific reasoning, not the conclusion)
13:51:48 <AnotherTest> well I proved a n b n c = (a n b) ^ (a n c)
13:52:04 <AnotherTest> if (a n b) is not the empty set and (a n c) is not the empty set
13:52:20 <AnotherTest> then (a n b ) n ( a n c) is not the empty set
13:52:31 <elliott> that's certainly not true in general
13:52:55 <elliott> a = {1,2,3,4,5,6}, b = {1,2,3}, c = {4,5,6}
13:52:59 <elliott> (a n b) n (a n c) is empty
13:53:03 <elliott> but (a n b) is not and (a n c) is not
13:53:29 <elliott> of course, this violates the prerequisites for mroman's statement
13:53:41 <elliott> but I don't really see how your logic follows, still
13:53:49 <elliott> but I am way too tired to be thinking about anything involving more than one symbol
13:54:16 <AnotherTest> Oh I only saw half of his if statement ((a n b) != 0 ^ (a n c))
13:56:40 <elliott> mroman: a={AB,AC}, b={BC,AB}, c={BC,AC}
13:58:47 * elliott saw no requirement on length in mroman's question
13:58:50 <elliott> I provided a counterexample
13:59:36 <elliott> maybe there is no counter-example of length three though
13:59:44 <elliott> whatever length three means (could be an exists or forall)
14:00:06 <elliott> a={AB,AC,JUNK1}, b={BC,AB,JUNK2}, c={BC,AC,JUNK3}
14:01:23 <mroman> then they all have one common element?
14:01:35 <elliott> mroman: well that's exactly what it says...
14:01:44 <elliott> intersection of a, b, c: set of elements that appear in a, b and c
14:01:50 <elliott> you are saying there is at least one element of this set
14:01:54 <elliott> and hence at least one element that appears in a, b and c
14:02:00 <mroman> If the all have a common element
14:02:06 <mroman> then that element must be in a in b and in c
14:02:16 <mroman> so it is also in (a n b)
14:02:20 <mroman> and it is also in (b n c)
14:02:27 <elliott> yes, you're going backwards though
14:02:32 <elliott> you're deriving your premises from your conclusion
14:03:45 <AnotherTest> a n b n c = 0 <=> (a n b) n c = 0 => (a n b) != c
14:03:45 <AnotherTest> a = {1} b = {1} and c = {0} then a n b n c = {}
14:03:52 <elliott> you will find (_|_ -> p) vastly easier to prove than (p -> _|_) for many p
14:04:24 <elliott> @tell oerjan when you read the logs: i'm sorry it took me to so long to find that obvious counterexample. please don't swat me
14:06:29 <mroman> Let's assume (a n b) = x, (a n c) = y, (b n c) = z
14:06:39 <mroman> then c contains at least {y,z}
14:06:50 <mroman> a contains at least {x,y}
14:06:51 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:06:58 <mroman> and b contains at least {z,x}
14:08:07 <mroman> > (intersect (intersect [1,2] [1,3]) [2,3])
14:08:31 <mroman> > intersect [1,2] [1,3]
14:08:41 <mroman> > intersect [1,2] [2,3]
14:08:50 <mroman> > intersect [1,3] [2,3]
14:09:07 <mroman> That'd be a counter example?
14:09:16 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation2 http://sprunge.us/NAHZ
14:09:20 <ais523> let's hope it fits within the size limit
14:09:27 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anticipation2: 0.0
14:09:40 <ais523> Gregor: what /is/ the size limit for egojoust, anyway?
14:09:47 <ais523> it'd be way shorter if I had an if statement, but I don't :(
14:10:03 <ais523> oh: "parse error: maximum [] nesting depth exceeded"
14:10:14 <ais523> didn't hit size limit, hit something else
14:10:29 <elliott> mroman: that's just my example
14:10:34 <AnotherTest> well, it seems like there is a nesting depth limit
14:10:41 <fizzie> ais523: That limit's 256.
14:10:52 <ais523> I only go /slightly/ over 256
14:11:00 <ais523> is there any particular reason why the limit's there?
14:11:47 <mroman> That's very unfortunate :(
14:11:50 <fizzie> ais523: I don't recall. Possibly not anything that would count. Fixed-size arrays for matching things in the parser.
14:12:08 <ais523> well it's annoying to have a really good program and having to butcher it to fit it on the hill
14:13:05 <fizzie> ais523: I could fix that right now, but it would probably take time (and a Gregor) to get it into the thing.
14:13:30 <ais523> OK, ten of the [] aren't used
14:13:46 <ais523> !bfjoust anticipation2 http://sprunge.us/FjPS
14:13:51 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_anticipation2: 56.5
14:14:47 <ais523> now I just have to come up with more good programs that beat space_hotel, to push it into first ;)
14:16:13 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays <
14:16:15 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 0.0
14:18:27 <ais523> not edging above space_hotel on the leaderboard is annoying
14:18:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/TMGZ well that's not good.
14:18:41 <fizzie> I think it might've been because of your <.
14:19:00 <ais523> shall I put that program back?
14:19:13 <fizzie> I think I'll just fix whatever it broke.
14:19:17 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
14:19:20 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 23.2
14:19:28 <ais523> it's not a very good program and I was just using it as an example
14:20:05 <ais523> I'm pretty pleased with anticipation2
14:20:14 <ais523> and I'd love to get the chance to explain it to quintopia or someone
14:20:22 <ais523> hmm… I'll put the program that generates it on the wiki
14:21:41 <fizzie> "And the explanation had better be good."
14:21:53 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ais523/anticipation2.pl
14:22:05 <ais523> so, basically, it's an intelligent defence program
14:22:37 <ais523> it starts with a complex decoy setup
14:22:43 <ais523> to make sure it gets to its tripwires before the opponent does
14:22:50 <ais523> for short tapes, there's a couple of reverse tripwires
14:23:12 <ais523> if the opponent gets to them before decoy setup is complete, it changes to shudderlock's strategy
14:23:25 <ais523> and just tries to lock+clear; it works against quite a few programs on short tapes
14:24:17 <ais523> more usually, what it's trying to do is to set up a vibration on its flag
14:24:29 <ais523> so that the flag is 0 at the exact moment the opponent tests it for the first time
14:25:02 <ais523> the way it measures is to rely on the fact that the vast majority of programs do either + or - on the cycle immediately after their [ to check if the cell is 0
14:25:13 <ais523> and do their [ to check if the cell is 0 before adjusting it
14:25:21 <ais523> so it uses two tripwires, one with value 1, one with value -1
14:25:34 <ais523> and measures how long they take to become 0, compared to when the previous cell was zeroed for two cycles
14:25:57 <ais523> thus, it's #1 way to win is tricking the opponent off the end of the tape
14:26:06 <ais523> it has a few fallback winning methods too
14:26:13 <ais523> first, some opponents check for vibrations, and move into a clear loop if they do
14:26:50 <ais523> however, hardly any programs use an /offset/ clear in this situation, so I can lock them using a lock algorithm that works on any integer cycle length, but relies on knowing when the opponent's clear loop sets the value to 0
14:27:12 <ais523> second, if it can't measure the opponent's timing, it falls back to anticipation
14:27:41 <ais523> and third, if the game is still going after the opponent is meant to have fallen off the tape, it falls back to shudderlock (especially because it'll have a more accurate idea of when to start the lock than shudderlock normally has)
14:27:54 <ais523> so yeah, that's about it
14:28:28 <fizzie> Updated http://zem.fi/egostats/ with anticipation2, then.
14:29:19 <quintopia> i havent looked at it but it sounds like it will be gigs big
14:30:09 <ais523> read the program that generates it if you want something readable / with comments
14:30:18 <ais523> I deleted all the comments from the submitted version to help get it under the size limit
14:31:25 <quintopia> fizzie: does your egostats program fetch the whole hill at the click of a button?
14:31:51 <ais523> quintopia: I can fetch the whole hill with one command
14:32:05 <ais523> in esoteric/brainfuck/bfjoust/in_egobot, type hg pull && hg up
14:32:19 <fizzie> That's what I do, too.
14:32:37 <fizzie> (Then it's crank_hill.sh, parse_results.py, update_stats.py and rsync ...)
14:34:08 <ais523> I think anticipation2 may be the first successful program that intentionally sets its flag to zero, and knows it's intentionally setting its flag to zero when it does so
14:34:25 <ais523> also, it's the first successful cycle-counting defence program since defend9
14:34:52 <ais523> I basically just decided that, in this era of outcompeting decoy setups, simply ignoring the whole issue by using defence was the best option
14:35:06 <quintopia> fizzie: i just meant did you automate the entire update process
14:35:06 <ais523> the main things it loses to, incidentally, are reverse offset clears, and sometimes timer clears too
14:35:57 <fizzie> Well, it's quasiautomated. A total of five commands I copypaste from a commands.txt file.
14:36:01 <elliott> ais523: don't the shuddery things do that too?
14:36:10 <ais523> elliott: yeah, but they've never been successful
14:36:16 <ais523> when vibration ended up halfway up the hill
14:36:19 <ais523> I decided to make a /good/ one
14:36:26 <ais523> because it seemed like a viable strategy
14:36:47 <ais523> and unlike vibration, anticipation2 is actually capable of winning against things that the strategy doesn't work perfectly against
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14:37:38 <quintopia> i find it interesting that despite their vast methodical differences, space hotel and anticipation2 win more on the same tape lengths and polarities as each other than any other programs
14:38:10 <quintopia> fizzie: can't you make commands.txt be commands.sh
14:38:53 <fizzie> I guess I could, it's just that things have (or at least had when it was written) a habit of breaking, it's nice for it to be slightly more granular.
14:39:22 <quintopia> and then can't you have one of the bots here call it whenever a new program is submitted? :P
14:39:58 <ais523> quintopia: I think it's just because space_hotel and anticipation2 win a lot full stop
14:41:14 <quintopia> ais523: this one is particularly revealing http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_tapeabs.png
14:41:38 <ais523> my favourite bit of that is how low anticipation2's flag is
14:41:44 <ais523> also, how high its opponent's flags are
14:41:50 <ais523> its own flag is low because it sets it low intentionally
14:42:19 <ais523> its enemies' are high because if it loses, it typically hasn't even started to attack the enemy flag yet, and if it wins, half the time it /still/ hasn't started to attack the enemy flag yet
14:42:53 <ais523> fizzie: another interesting plot might be to show where the player's and enemy's tape heads were when the duels ended
14:43:53 <ais523> for rush versus rush, it'd show how quickly players outrushed their opponent
14:43:59 <ais523> and it'd also indicate how often programs fell off the end
14:44:50 <fizzie> The cranking also produces a heatmap (well, the numbers for one) on where the tape heads spent time during the whole duel, which I think I'm not using for any plots.
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14:45:29 <ais523> yeah, that'd be interesting too
14:47:00 <fizzie> As for auto-updating, theoretically, sure. But it takes quite a while to run, maybe five-ten minutes or so, I don't think I want it running all the time. (And I don't have all the Python bits it depends on anywhere else than this local workstation.)
14:47:03 <mroman> If a,b,c were restricted to one element it would trivially be true
14:47:20 <ais523> oh, something you were talking about before I joined
14:47:32 <fizzie> (Python+Numpy+Matplotlib manages to be spectacularly slow at times.)
14:48:39 <mroman> If a,b,c were restricted to contain at least three elements...
14:50:17 <quintopia> fizzie: how about it sets a midnight cronjob whenever the hill changes?
14:50:56 <fizzie> mroman: a={1,2,4}, b={1,3,5}, c={2,3,6} as per elliott's other counterexample. (a n b = {1}, a n c = {2}, b n c = {3}, a n b n c = {}.)
14:51:19 <fizzie> quintopia: That could work. Admittedly it'd be nice for it to update oftener than once a year.
14:51:28 <quintopia> fizzie: is it impossible to coax matplotlib to make those "stuff left on the tape" plots trapezodial (equal cell width)?
14:52:23 <quintopia> fizzie: are you saying it'd be nice if people got interested in the joust more often than that?
14:53:12 <fizzie> quintopia: They could just be nan-filled (i.e. white) for equal cell width. I think I was just thinking it's nice when the opponent's flag is always at the same spot. But it could do both variants, of course.
14:53:43 <quintopia> fizzie: yeah its nicer to have the cells line up i think
14:53:58 <fizzie> quintopia: And I think people get interested more often than that (maybe even twice a year?) but I don't happen to be always looking at the channel when it happens so the page doesn't get updated.
14:54:03 <mroman> Would it matter how big the intersections are?
14:54:43 <ais523> fizzie: it's more than twice a year, but less than all the time
14:55:12 <fizzie> mroman: You can always add more junk. (a={1,11,111,2,22,222}, b={1,11,111,3,33,333}, c={2,22,222,3,33,333}.)
14:56:42 <fizzie> Some kind of a thing about the intersection of a, b and c given things about the intersections of (a and b), (a and c) and (b and c).
14:56:54 <fizzie> From what I can tell, it doesn't much matter what, as long as it's something.
14:58:50 <fizzie> quintopia: Also, it seems that the plotting takes about two gigs of memory, which would make it a bit iffy to run on the VPS where the plots live. (free -m "total 247".)
15:13:13 <elliott> [on Haskell] "Besides, we already have a language community for socially abrasive jerks. And the documentation for ruby is far better."
15:13:21 <elliott> I... think this person is living in opposite world.
15:15:22 <quintopia> oh. are you sure it wasn't [on esoteric languages]?
15:15:53 <olsner> maybe there's a separate community for socially abrasive jerks from the ruby community that have learned haskell
15:15:58 <ais523> mroman: do you know about Venn diagrams? if not, learn, it'll probably help you visualise things
15:16:16 <elliott> quintopia: unless Ruby's documentation massively improved in the last couple of years, the average esolang's is better
15:16:51 <olsner> then if everyone who knows ruby goes to haskell through that group then "the haskell community" will seem just as bad
15:18:18 <elliott> quintopia: can't object to that part
15:18:21 <ais523> elliott: well… PHP's documentation is apparently very good, but it has to be, the language would be impossible to write otherwise
15:18:23 <mroman> http://heimwerker-mathematik.aulbach-philosophy.de/_Schnittmenge_/echtes_Venn-Diagramm_-_B300.jpg
15:18:27 <mroman> ^- it looked like that
15:18:46 <elliott> ais523: stop using proper ellipses, I'm watching you
15:19:00 <ais523> I've got so used to proper ellipses
15:19:08 <ais523> that it takes quite some mental effort to type triple-period
15:19:21 <ais523> elliott: no, because that actually looks wrong
15:19:25 <mroman> how would you draw three circles
15:19:33 <olsner> ais523: what do you use to type your ellipses?
15:19:45 <quintopia> mroman: they dont have to be circles
15:19:59 <ais523> I type compose using caps lock, and caps lock using left shift + right shift
15:20:32 <elliott> ais523: soon enough people will forget there's a codepoint called ELLIPSIS anyway, I guess
15:21:01 <ais523> the sort of people who care about codepoints will know
15:21:11 <ais523> the sort of people who don't don't know in the first place so they can't forget
15:21:56 <quintopia> i've forgotten more than i've ever known!
15:22:12 * elliott still thinks smart quotes are doomed to obsolescence
15:24:40 <elliott> you get no answer from me!!!
15:26:25 <ais523> I can “type” smart quotes with altgr
15:26:30 <ais523> but am not sure how to do them with compose
15:30:20 <fizzie> I spent quite a while trying to compose-type an ë the other day; this keymap has a non-dead diaeresis key to make a ¨, but no way of composing ¨ and e seemed to work. (In the end it was "e, of course.)
15:31:32 <ais523> can’t is the correct smart apostrophe to use
15:31:37 <ais523> not can´t which obviously looks wrong
15:32:09 <ais523> hmm, I should use the correct apostrophes in words when I remember
15:35:47 <Sgeo> And today I learn that "better-monads" is a damned lie.
15:35:56 <Sgeo> ...oh, sorry about language
15:43:45 <Sgeo> elliott, I was worried about upsetting ais523
15:43:59 <ais523> Sgeo: I don't mind if you apply that to inanimate objects
15:45:15 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>)*2(>>>>[(+[--[-[++++[(+)*100[+]]]]]>)*21])*6
15:45:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 9.6
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15:51:06 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>)*2(>>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*6
15:51:08 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 10.3
15:51:38 <ais523> at least it beats space_hotel :)
15:51:51 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*6
15:51:54 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 6.9
15:51:59 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*6
15:52:01 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 12.3
15:52:29 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*8
15:52:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 13.1
15:53:09 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*7>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
15:53:12 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 13.3
15:53:15 <ais523> (another obvious improvement)
15:54:16 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[(>(+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]])%21)*21])*7>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
15:54:19 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 11.3
15:54:30 <fizzie> An obvious disprovement this time?-)
15:54:38 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ bf do ft id pl rc v wn
15:54:40 <fizzie> (I just wanted to use the word "disprovement.")
15:54:42 <ais523> nah, that's the "let's just go even more insane" version
15:54:45 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs (>>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*7>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
15:54:48 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 13.3
15:54:51 <elliott> fizzie: Have you considered investing in: eyes?
15:54:57 <olsner> might be nice if it printed points and placement in addition to score
15:55:32 <olsner> the score changes every time, but it seems you always get the last place
15:55:49 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs >>>>(>>>[((+[--[-[++++[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]>)%21)*21])*8>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
15:55:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 15.6
15:56:25 <ais523> nice to know that the hill isn't centralized enough for this strategy to actually work yet :)
15:57:23 <ais523> !bfjoust picks_up_breadcrumbs >>>>(>>>[((+[+[+[+[-----[-[-[-[-[(+)*10([-{(-)*90[-]>{}}])%20]]]]]]]]]>)%21)*21])*8>(+)*100[+]>(+)*100[+]
15:57:26 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_picks_up_breadcrumbs: 15.9
15:57:36 <ais523> olsner: basically, moving n cells at a time towards the opponent
15:57:54 <ais523> in the hope of hitting their back trail rather than their decoy setup
15:58:02 <ais523> and reaching their flag before they finish actually setting up decoys
15:58:20 <ais523> everyone seems to have a back trail nowadays
15:59:02 <ais523> I didn't expect the strategy to work
16:02:26 <olsner> reading through plain.tex now, finally starting to get an idea of how the programming language TeX works
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16:20:24 <ais523> quintopia: have you noticed how the 11th cell seems to be somehow important when countering enemy pokes?
16:20:39 <ais523> both space_hotel and stealth change strategy at the 11th cell
16:23:53 <etb> !bfjoust court_jester (>)*9(+[-]>)*21
16:23:56 <EgoBot> Score for etb_court_jester: 13.7
16:24:09 <ais523> also, I think I've determined the maximum number of possible decoys for a non-poke program
16:24:20 <ais523> possibly with an extra decoy at 9 in order to confuse pokes on long tapes
16:24:36 <ais523> decoys on the seventh cell and later will almost always be avoided by the opponent
16:24:42 <ais523> or at least, cost more than they're worth
16:26:16 <etb> !bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8(+[-]>)*21
16:26:19 <EgoBot> Score for etb_rampart: 21.1
16:27:29 <etb> that's my best yet :)
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16:34:03 <etb> !bfjoust boobs (+)>(+)*128(>)*8(+[-]>)*21
16:34:07 <EgoBot> Score for etb_boobs: 13.9
16:34:27 <ais523> etb: hmm, rampart is a very fast rush program
16:35:17 <etb> the defensive build-up at the beginning seems to help
16:35:41 <ais523> you have two decoys there
16:35:47 <ais523> and most programs are helped by adding decoys
16:37:00 <AnotherTest> Doesn't a cell with value 1 or -1 count as a decoy?
16:37:44 <AnotherTest> (note: my bf joust knowledge is minimal to none)
16:38:02 <ais523> AnotherTest: yes, a small decoy
16:38:04 <etb> !bfjoust rampart (+)*62>(+)*128(->)*8(+[-]>)*21
16:38:07 <EgoBot> Score for etb_rampart: 18.4
16:38:11 <ais523> small decoys are 1 to 3, and maybe 4
16:38:24 <ais523> medium decoys best function at 10 or so
16:38:33 <ais523> and large decoys often end up in the 70 to 85 range nowadays
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16:38:43 <AnotherTest> ais523: Is it generally better to have large decoys?
16:38:43 <etb> !bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(->)*8(+[-]>)*21
16:38:44 <mroman> How on earth is 3-SAT NP?
16:38:47 <EgoBot> Score for etb_rampart: 18.3
16:38:56 <ais523> (making them larger than 85 is mostly pointless, because a naive clear clears size 86 decoys just as fast as an order 86 offset clear does)
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16:39:14 <etb> !bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8(+[-]>)*21
16:39:20 <EgoBot> Score for etb_rampart: 20.0
16:39:25 <ais523> AnotherTest: it depends on what you're doing; basically, a large decoy (that's larger than the opponent's clear offset) wastes 256 of their cycles on average, no matter how large it is
16:39:43 <ais523> so if you make it significantly larger than their clear offset, you're just wasting time setting it and not gaining any time back from the opponent clearing it more slowly
16:40:17 <ais523> (it takes 512 - 2*height cycles if they're trying the wrong polarity to clear it quickly, and 2*height cycles if they're trying the correct polarity)
16:41:06 <etb> !bfjoust rampart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8([-]>)*21
16:41:08 <EgoBot> Score for etb_rampart: 22.3
16:41:25 <etb> i keep forgetting that [ on !*p jumps to ]
16:41:36 <ais523> AnotherTest: a medium decoy, that's larger than any opponent wiggle but smaller than their offset, wastes a number of cycles equal to twice their offset, on average
16:42:03 <ais523> so because medium decoys are fast to set, against programs that use large offsets, they gain you a lot
16:42:12 <ais523> and a wiggle clear is where you check a few small values as special cases
16:42:15 <ais523> before going onto an offset clear
16:42:25 <ais523> they're good for dealing with small decoys, but have quadratic performance
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16:42:35 <ais523> so people rarely wiggle above 3 or so
16:43:09 <etb> are they likely at all to get trapped in a loop?
16:43:19 <ais523> trapping programs in a loop is a legitimate strategy
16:43:28 <ais523> although one that hasn't done so well recently
16:43:41 <ais523> anticipation2, which I submitted today, has that as one of its methods of winning
16:43:41 <etb> i'm wondering how best to probe values without getting caught having to inc/decrement
16:43:53 <ais523> and you have to increment/decrement a cell to probe it
16:44:01 <ais523> this is part of the strategy
16:44:45 <ais523> you can zero-test a cell without touching it
16:44:54 <ais523> but for other cells, you have to set them to zero to be able to determine their value
16:45:33 <etb> !bfjoust manpart (+)*70>(+)*128(>)*8([(+)*3[-]]>)*21
16:45:36 <EgoBot> Score for etb_manpart: 17.8
16:46:11 <ais523> a "lock" program is one that tries to trap the opponent in a loop
16:46:25 <ais523> say by turning the cell backwards at the same rate the opponent is trying to turn it forwards
16:46:31 <ais523> I think defend7 is still on the hill, that's a pretty naive version
16:46:43 <ais523> AnotherTest: recently, no, but I've been trying to revive them
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16:46:58 <ais523> the methods of countering them are just too good
16:47:25 * oerjan guesses ais523 is talking about bfjoust defense
16:47:25 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
16:47:29 <lambdabot> elliott said 2h 43m 6s ago: when you read the logs: i'm sorry it took me to so long to find that obvious counterexample. please don't swat me
16:47:43 <AnotherTest> How are these programs that constantly moves up and down the flags value doing?
16:48:01 <ais523> oh, shudder/vibration programs?
16:48:07 <ais523> vibration's like halfway up the leaderboard
16:48:17 <ais523> anticipation2 is technically a vibration program too, but it doesn't really act like one
16:49:18 <AnotherTest> Well, that was the only BF Joust program I ever wrote (but not submitted because I realized it had already been done)
16:49:40 <AnotherTest> But unfortunately, it had been done before
16:49:48 <etb> !bfjoust badlock (+)*70>(+)*70(.)*128([+])*-1
16:49:51 <AnotherTest> so I assumed that there would be some defence against it
16:49:53 <EgoBot> Score for etb_badlock: 10.7
16:50:43 * oerjan is still wondering how much rock/paper/scissors effects there are in bfjoust - that is, how much what wins depends of what is already on the hill, and whether defense could prevail more in another environment. this musing is somewhat hampered by my lack of any deep understanding of bfjoust.
16:51:28 <etb> putting a bad program on the hill rearranges the leaderboard
16:51:56 <oerjan> or put another way, if what's currently on the hill counts as scissors and defense counts as paper, do rocks exist?
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16:52:36 <ais523> oerjan: actually sufficiently good defence beats what's currently on the hill, I think
16:52:42 <ais523> because the defence programs dropped off a while ago
16:53:58 <oerjan> <etb> putting a bad program on the hill rearranges the leaderboard <-- not if it gets dropped off, surely?
16:54:15 <etb> once it gets dropped, it will rearrange again
16:54:35 <etb> !bfjoust suicide <
16:54:38 <EgoBot> Score for etb_suicide: 0.0
16:54:39 <elliott> oerjan: bf joust is pretty much entirely a metagame of hill effects
16:54:55 <oerjan> quintopia: did your(?) new scoring system ever get merged into EgoBot?
16:55:20 <oerjan> ais523 said something implying it was, but i'm not sure if he is correct
16:55:41 <ais523> I'm not 100% sure either
16:56:30 <oerjan> etb: quintopia's system means scores are _only_ dependent on what is on the hill, not on previous scores.
16:57:01 <ais523> oerjan: the old one was like that too
16:57:09 <ais523> but it jostles around because submitting a program changes what's on the hill
16:57:45 <etb> that's what i'm saying :(
16:57:55 <etb> it's kinda cool actually
16:58:08 <oerjan> well sure, but the new one would also do that as long as the new program doesn't get thrown off immediately
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17:19:58 <olsner> I'm glad to see my programs finally move down the hill a bit
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17:27:51 <ais523> olsner: it actually took me quite some effort trying to beat them :)
17:28:02 <ais523> it's nice to have a variety of people's styles on the hill
17:29:09 <mroman> now I need a DIMACS parser :(
17:33:46 <mroman> Let's just say if I've had invented the DIMACS format I would have put a constraint on ordering
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17:39:58 <oerjan> <etb> i'm picturing a system in which `using x = T<int>; using y = T<int>;` will be like `using x = T<int,0>; using y = T<int,1>;` so that the expression `x = y;` results in a compile-time error
17:40:24 <oerjan> i'd bet ada can do that, if i actually knew ada.
17:40:49 <Bike> yeah, you can make incompatible named subtypes of int or w/e
17:41:03 <etb> that should be using X, using Y and X x; Y y; then x = y; (ie instance of x = instance of y results in an error)
17:42:21 <etb> it's just odd that C++ is supposed to be so type safe yet making safe types out of basic data types is not really possible
17:42:28 <oerjan> do ML modules work that way?
17:42:36 <etb> stroustrup talks about this frequently
17:42:41 <olsner> ais523: "my" programs are generated from a bfjoust syntax and a couple of small inner loops grabbed from other programs on the hill
17:42:58 <ais523> yeah but everyone's programs feel different
17:43:16 <ais523> it's quite easy to accidentally beat a program that does well against most people but badly against, say, GregorR or atehwa, for instance
17:44:10 <oerjan> um, did you intend "beat" there
17:44:49 <oerjan> (it could make sense either way, but...)
17:45:36 <olsner> (http://pastebin.com/WhKYSt6u)
17:46:00 <ais523> olsner: I intended "write"
17:46:39 <ais523> olsner: oh, they're automatically generated?
17:46:49 <oerjan> um, did you intend "olsner" there
17:46:56 <ais523> yes, I did intend "olsner"
17:47:06 <ais523> but "oerjan" the first time
17:47:19 <ais523> olsner: evolved or just random?
17:47:59 <olsner> found a crummy evolution framework and integrated it with the bfjoust stuff from codu.org
17:48:58 <olsner> a bit hard to make any progress since almost every program is equally bad
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18:02:55 <oerjan> <elliott> I should grep the wiki logs to see if I can find out where the people behind it looked at the article on Malbolge, assuming they used the wiki
18:04:34 <oerjan> actually they probably copied from wikipedia. the program they used isn't in the esolang article. (you may note my recent wikipedia edit.)
18:05:35 <oerjan> that is, they basically took the one sample program on wikipedia, and copied it badly.
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18:07:15 <oerjan> 04:02:27: <tbc> Any fans of the TV show Elementary here?
18:07:15 <oerjan> 04:03:28: <NihilistDandy> Haven't watched it. I can't imagine it topping Sherlock.
18:07:18 <oerjan> 04:05:26: <tbc> It's an interesting take on the Holmes character. I popped in here because Malbolge was part of the plot in the episode titled The Leviathan.
18:09:55 <oerjan> <elliott> I think the wikipedia article is a bit copied from ours <-- btw we never resolved the question on wikipedia of where the name "crazy operation" came from
18:10:29 <oerjan> iirc it showed up on wikipedia first, with no reference.
18:10:45 <Taneb> Didn't wikipedia give a French or German politician a new middle name, in a similar way?
18:11:21 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that.
18:11:52 <oerjan> someone with an already pompous nobility name got a bit extra, iirc
18:13:20 <oerjan> <tbc> Grr. I already deleted the episode. I should have transcribed the frame where they showed a fragment of a Malobolge program. It was a romping story. <-- someone already did so in the wp talk page, which is how i discovered it was a near-copy of Hello, World!
18:14:17 <Taneb> I think I've got Elementary recorded
18:14:26 <Taneb> I'll make a note to watch that episode
18:14:58 <oerjan> btw the same guy requested someone to upload a picture of that frame, but i was worried about copyright
18:15:34 <oerjan> if any of you are braver/less principled/knows this is fair use, see the talk page
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18:21:46 <oerjan> <Bike> i'm not sure how anyone could reliably distinguish malbolge from line noise (not that line noise is really produced anymore) <-- that's not actually so hard in principle, because Malbolge allows only 8 character in each particular program position (although which depends on the position)
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18:35:30 <ais523> yeah, it's like trying to distinguish a ttyrec from line noise
18:35:55 <ais523> in practice it's easy because line noise tends to not have weakly increasing timestamps
18:43:56 <hagb4rd> i must revise what i said about template templates metaprogramming and c#.. it is not easier to implement those. it is just impossible
18:45:48 <hagb4rd> so i hope you'll accept my apologies and revise the excommunication
18:45:59 <Bike> excommunication?
18:47:22 <hagb4rd> if a man admits his failure he must promptly be forgiven
18:58:29 <oerjan> @tell elliott It's OK, but as penance you will have to read up on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_algebra
19:03:29 <oerjan> mroman: you can read it too btw
19:06:21 <kmc> you have reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQqZKd_72C0 (nsfw?)
19:06:33 <kmc> a trailer for a film formerly titled "Kiss the Ring" and now titled "Gone With The Pope"
19:06:35 <oerjan> elliott: mroman: and then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-satisfiability
19:07:06 <oerjan> wait, that's darn long
19:10:30 <hagb4rd> kmc: well thx.. haven't seen that one yet
19:10:38 <oerjan> the connection i wanted to point out is probably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-satisfiability#The_set_of_all_solutions
19:14:44 <oerjan> or to put it explicitly: a family of variable assignments of some set of variables X can be described by pairwise restrictions on the variables precisely when the family is closed under taking the median operation on any 3 assignments
19:16:11 * oerjan sadly realizes no one will understand this anyway
19:18:31 <oerjan> mroman: oh but here's a cool related boolean algebra theorem which is what sent me from your discussion to thinking about this: (a \/ b) /\ (a \/ c) /\ (b \/ c) = (a /\ b) \/ (a /\ c) \/ (b /\ c). i.e. the median operation in boolean algebra is _self-dual_.
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19:38:36 <lambdabot> fd:9: commitBuffer: invalid argument (invalid character)
19:39:30 * oerjan does a little victory dance
19:42:12 <oerjan> Bike: lambdabot's > breaks horribly on unicode I/O, but @let doesn't
19:42:36 <Bike> i know. but i don't want to think about why.
19:42:53 <oerjan> i think i know why, and it's fairly logical
19:43:40 <oerjan> @let just appends its line to a module file, which is then checked with ghc directly, and ghc is utf-8 clean
19:44:23 <oerjan> but > and :t pass an expression to mueval, which has some charset problem
19:44:43 <oerjan> ...actually :t may have a different problem than >
19:45:36 <oerjan> maybe i shouldn't think about why either
19:58:04 <oerjan> <mroman> How on earth is 3-SAT NP?
19:58:28 <oerjan> by encoding SAT into it?
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19:59:03 * oerjan now wonders if mroman was looking at 2-SAT already
20:00:53 <oerjan> basically with 3-SAT you can encode that 1 variable is an arbitrary boolean function of two others.
20:01:46 <oerjan> and then you just build any other circuit up from that
20:06:43 <oerjan> (a \/ ~c) /\ (b \/ ~c) /\ (~a \/ ~b \/ c) encodes c == a /\ b
20:12:14 <shachaf> Am I hallucinating currently?
20:12:38 <oerjan> that computer is really a grape.
20:12:39 <shachaf> That's just what hallucinoerjan would say!
20:13:00 <oerjan> thus proving you're hallucinating!
20:13:10 <shachaf> But hallucinoerjan would probably lie to me.
20:13:27 <shachaf> Do you know what "spineless" in "spineless tagless g-machine" means?
20:14:11 <Fiora> I am a figment of your imagination sch
20:14:33 * Fiora hovers on the edge of your vision making weird faces
20:14:38 <ion> I also don’t know what “tagless” in “spineless tagless g-machine” means.
20:14:50 <ion> In addition to that, i don’t know what “g-machine” in “spineless tagless g-machine” means.
20:15:00 <oerjan> i think the g is for graph, maybe.
20:15:11 <ion> I’ve been meaning to read the paper, but haven’t got around to that.
20:15:23 <shachaf> ion: The STG machine is neither spineless nor tagless, I'm told.
20:15:38 <ion> In that case, that is an excellent name for it.
20:15:40 <shachaf> By which I mean the thing GHC uses, not the thing in the paper.
20:15:47 <shachaf> I have first-hand evidence that it's not tagless.
20:17:22 <shachaf> I don't know what spineless means so I don't know about that.
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20:27:57 <fungot> shachaf: by the time i saw no trace of
20:32:11 <fungot> shachaf: published june 1922 in home brew vol. 1, no. 4, p. fnord. prop... fnord...
20:33:52 <kmc> shachaf: it is tagless in the original meaning of "tag"
20:34:58 <kmc> the one where e.g. pointers all end in 00 and primitive ints end in 01
20:35:19 <kmc> and the garbage collector needs this information to do its job correctly
20:35:48 <kmc> one of the innovations of GHC was that you already know whether each word is a heap pointer or a primitive thingy, without inspecting the word
20:36:56 <Fiora> how did it do that?
20:41:09 <shachaf> «Objects in the heap, both unevaluated suspensions and head normal forms, have a uniform representation with a code pointer in their first field. Many implementations examine tag fields on heap objects to decide how to treat them. With our representation we never do this; instead, a jump is made to the code pointed to by the object. This is why we call the machine "tagless"»
20:41:51 <shachaf> I suppose you could read that either way.
20:42:02 <Fiora> I wonder how painful that is to the branch predictor
20:42:11 <Fiora> indirect jumps everywhere
20:42:13 <shachaf> That's why they don't do it anymore.
20:42:24 <Fiora> what do they do instead?
20:42:32 <shachaf> This is one of the places where a tracing JIT can really help, though.
20:42:47 <shachaf> They have pointed tagging now.
20:43:15 <Fiora> storing the tag in the low bits of the pointer, then masking it off?
20:43:18 <shachaf> The code is still there and you can still always jump to it.
20:43:41 <shachaf> So you can check whether a thunk is already evaluated and if so skip the indirect jump.
20:43:58 <Fiora> I guess the old tagless stuff reminds me of vtables
20:44:20 <shachaf> vtables are another place where a JIT can help. :-)
20:44:32 <Fiora> does java do anything special for vtable stuff?
20:44:49 <shachaf> edwardk worked on an x86->x86 tracing JIT to optimize indirect jumps and that sort of thing.
20:45:23 <Fiora> does that work better than branch prediction? since, I mean, modern chips do track indirect jumps
20:45:35 <Fiora> I guess it could reduce the number to reduce the load on the predictor unit
20:46:29 <shachaf> Well, once you're doing optimizations at runtime there can also be all sorts of other things that you can do.
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20:47:55 <Fiora> isn't inlining a vtable reference the same thing as a template basically?
20:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I seem to have unexpectedly ended up with a Raspberry Pi and no idea what to do with it.
20:48:03 <Fiora> like you're templating that function based on the type of an object
20:48:03 <lambdabot> Phantom_Hoover: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
20:48:13 <shachaf> But I understand that just replacing the indirect jump with a direct jump in an inner loop can help quite a bit.
20:48:44 <Fiora> yeah, but don't you have to check each time to see if the direct jump is still right?
20:48:51 <Fiora> since the type of the object could be different
20:49:04 <shachaf> You can do it once outside of the loop, presumably.
20:49:42 <shachaf> Well, depending on whether you expect the address to change.
20:50:03 <shachaf> In most contexts, like vtables, it probably won't.
20:54:34 <shachaf> Anyway I don't know that much about this.
20:55:16 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: post-bop avantcore.
20:55:47 <Bike> only one way to find out!
20:56:22 <Bike> hichaf? sounds like a warning for militarypilots
20:56:24 <Fiora> you can do that optimization on compile time too right? loop hoisting
20:57:25 <shachaf> Well, you don't know what the value will be at compile time.
20:57:37 <Fiora> but if it doesn't change in the loop, you could at least load it once at the start, right?
20:58:04 <shachaf> Sure, but it's still an indirect jump.
20:58:46 <Bike> kmc: dunno if you're here or care but yesterday got me thinking, so now i'm wondering what a clean way to (userly) define special forms not based on environment manipulation (e.g. compiler interaction things like load-time-value and no i don't expect you to have heard of that). and whipping some shit up as usual
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21:02:29 <Fiora> isn't an indirect jump cheap if it goes to the same place every time?
21:08:08 <kmc> HDMI and DVI are partially compatible
21:09:05 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, yes but unless I can jam one into the other that's not much help right now.
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22:13:04 <fizzie> Don't you wish you had a DVI-HDMI cable instead? (It's what I have.)
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22:14:11 <fizzie> But then I wouldn't see what I typed. :/
22:14:57 <fizzie> I like being able to see my screen more.
22:15:05 <fizzie> Plus I couldn't connect my own Pi without the cable.
22:15:18 <fizzie> (I don't know what to do with it.)
22:19:11 <fizzie> Forget smartphones, smarthats are where it's at.
22:20:40 <fizzie> Maybe some kind of an integrated Pi-controlled 3D printer/hat hybrid.
22:20:48 <fizzie> Just wait three-six hours and you've got a new hat.
22:20:57 <fizzie> Careful with the heating elements, though.
22:21:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i was thinking more of some strategically-arranged retractible brims but that works too
22:22:45 <fizzie> Many people have made media-centery things with the Pi, which to me sounds kind of weird.
22:23:04 <fizzie> I'm sure it could be a passable one, but still.
22:24:20 <fizzie> Hey, my scp file transfer is running at 15 MiB/s. How is that even possible?
22:24:40 <fizzie> Oh, right, there's a network cable there.
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22:47:53 <fizzie> Huh, it must be the future now. I just EMULATED a WII on a PC.
22:48:20 <Fiora> Dolphin is pretty amazing
22:48:32 <Fiora> It has a really good JIT
22:48:45 <fizzie> It wasn't that long ago when just emulating a Playstation was kind of impressive, and it was really recently I discovered you can do PS2 these days.
22:49:36 <Fiora> yeah, PS2 works great with a fast clocked CPU
22:49:43 <Fiora> the PS2 chip is way harder to emulate, clock for clock, than the Wii though
22:49:52 <ais523> Fiora: you're a JIT fan, right?
22:50:03 <Fiora> ummmm kinda but I mostly know emulation stuff
22:50:11 <ais523> you just seem to go on about them a lot :)
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22:50:21 <Fiora> I likecompilers and jits and emulators and things
22:50:40 <Fiora> and things like, learning how the ps2 cpu works and its instructions and how to emulate them and stuff
22:50:56 <Fiora> it's amazing how it can take like 15-20 instructions to emulate a single floating point add in the VU
22:51:27 <Fiora> and there's two VUs each doing 128-bit vector ops, then the main MIPS core which also has a custom 128-bit integer simd instruction set
22:51:49 <fizzie> "What are Fioras made of? Compilers and jits and emulators and things." I think there was a rhyme that went like that.
22:52:07 <Fiora> I'm just kind of insane and I read the pcsx2 source code for fun okay ~_~
22:52:12 <ais523> at least the original playstation is famous for sucking at arithmetic
22:52:17 <ais523> oh, and reading source for fun is fine :)
22:52:36 <Fiora> the vector unit on the ps2 is lots of fun
22:52:47 <Fiora> instead of IEEE it has max/min float values, so you have to clamp
22:52:52 <Fiora> so no infinities or nans
22:53:10 <Fiora> each instruction has a built-in shuffle on all of the inputs (you can take the inputs in any order)
22:53:11 <ais523> that's common in graphics programming
22:53:19 <ais523> NaNs have a tendency to spread and take over your whole systme
22:53:25 <Fiora> each instruction can choose to operate on only some of the input values
22:53:33 <Fiora> each instruction sets a combination of flags
22:53:43 <Fiora> there's a sign flag and overflow flag (I think?) for each of the 4 floats
22:54:03 <Fiora> and then there's "sticky flags" which can get set on, but not off, so it lets you see if any of the previous operations overflowed or such
22:54:10 <Fiora> so that means you can't easily optimize out flag calculations that aren't used
22:54:37 <Fiora> so each VU instruction turns into a gigantic mess of pshufd and pmovmskb and minps and maxps for clamping
22:55:35 <oerjan> <Fiora> I'm just kind of insane and I read the pcsx2 source code for fun okay ~_~ <-- AHEM
22:55:41 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
22:55:50 <Fiora> it also has some really weird pipeline structure you have to emulate, because VU0 is locked to the main CPU, and if the CPU accesses it, it has to get the right results depending on which operations have retired
22:56:11 <Bike> i'm trying to remember the last time i met someone who explicitly denied being insane, instead of jokingly saying they were, and failing
22:56:34 <Bike> Fiora: that ("gigantic mess") makes it sound like it would make ps2 emulation pretty slow?
22:57:02 <fizzie> Nintendo DS has a "math accelerator", I think that's a funny bit. It can do 64x64->64 division and a 64->32 square-root; you write your results into a memory-mapped IO register, and after a while you can read the result out of another.
22:57:18 <Fiora> Bike: exactly, yeah
22:57:27 <oerjan> Bike: only (some) insane people deny being insane.
22:57:33 <Fiora> there's two reasons why PS2 emulation is so slow
22:57:36 <Fiora> 1) emulating the VUs is really hard
22:57:39 <Bike> Fiora: so, how do they deal with it? (or do they just say "get a faster computer")
22:57:44 <fizzie> Fortunately, computers are pretty fast.
22:57:57 <Fiora> they optimize out a lot of the flag calculations, use an optimizing compiler for VU microprograms, and use core i7s
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22:58:04 <Bike> as a netbook user i am constantly confronted with the fact that they are not, fizzie :/
22:58:16 <Fiora> the other part of things is the ps2 graphics chip
22:58:29 <ais523> I can't run JPC-RR at a reasonable speed on my netbook, especially on NetHack
22:58:46 <ais523> and it's implementing a 386-era PC
22:58:46 <Fiora> the ps2 graphics chip is really overly simple and very inflexible
22:58:50 <Fiora> but it runs insanely fast
22:58:55 <Bike> also i'm reminded of bsnes
22:58:57 <Fiora> it can fill the entire screen 40 times per frame
22:59:22 <Bike> putting in one extension for correctness with original hardware cut the speed of the one game that used it in tenths or so
22:59:26 <Fiora> so to do game graphics, people would do multiple passes of simple code instead of fewer passes of complex code
22:59:35 <fizzie> My most efficient computer is a laptop, and it can run PCSX2 and (as I learned today) Dolphin/Wii reasonably well. (Granted, it's only borderline a "laptop", and certainly not a netbook.)
22:59:36 <Fiora> but modern GPUs are all about complex, flexible code running slower
22:59:44 <ais523> this is borderline a netbook
22:59:47 <Fiora> not simple code running insanely fast
22:59:55 <Bike> ais523: "subnotebook" clearly
23:00:00 <Fiora> so emulating the graphics unit is sorta tricky too
23:00:01 <Bike> "supernetbook"
23:00:12 <fizzie> ais523: Which border, though?
23:00:16 <ais523> I think Toshiba wanted to make a netbook originally
23:00:19 <ais523> and then they wanted to put Windows on it
23:00:28 <ais523> so it's ended up with 3 GB of RAM
23:00:40 <ais523> although, that's pretty low specs for today
23:01:55 <Fiora> I emulated persona 4 pretty okay with a 1.6ghz i7
23:02:47 <fizzie> Yeah, the "laptop" weighs some absurd amount, eats watts for breakfast, and has a Sandy Bridge i7-2720QM (4x 2.2 GHz) + a GTX 460M on it. Granted, both have "M" in the name so they're not quite high-end-desktop parts (not even when it was made), but it's still fast-ish as far as these things go.
23:04:59 <fizzie> (It's kind of a compromise solution, I wanted something that'd run current (when-bought) games, yet would be something I could when necessary carry along, after the PPC iBook died on me. In retrospect, it might have made more sense to do both a desktop upgrade as well as buy something more portable, but meh, it works.)
23:05:43 <Fiora> huh, mine's like 3.2kg ish and has a 2.4ghz ivy bridge (runs at 3.4ghz in practice...) and a 7970M
23:06:16 <fizzie> Yeah, this is from the Sandy age, but the weight is around the same.
23:06:30 <Fiora> this was about the lightest I was able to find
23:06:33 <Fiora> most of them were like 4-5kg
23:06:40 <Fiora> I basically bought it just for the weight
23:08:00 <Bike> ooh let's make it a contest
23:08:17 <Bike> "I just execute the instructions on paper, I can get 5 Hz if I'm on enough stims"
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23:09:39 <Bike> phantom gets roughly 1 mHz if he uses enough throughput
23:10:16 <oerjan> i don't compute. i just guess, and then destroy all the universes where i guessed wrong.
23:10:48 <fizzie> I think my VDSL2 router box has its MIPS core clocked at 400 MHz.
23:10:58 <Bike> oerjan: i feel like i should complain about many-worlds but it turns out i'm not actually scott aaronson
23:11:21 <Fiora> but hwo do you check your answer
23:11:23 <Fiora> doesn't that involve....
23:11:44 <shachaf> Fiora: So you've reduced it to a problem oerjan just solved.
23:11:47 <Bike> oerjan applies the process recursively until there is no oerjan to guess incorrectly, fiora.
23:11:55 <oerjan> Fiora: well no one has ever told me i was wrong in any universe that survived
23:13:13 <oerjan> well, no one _believable_, that is.
23:15:46 <Fiora> you're actually dead
23:16:43 <shachaf> Have you ever thought of yourself as actually dead, lying in a box with a lid on it?
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23:17:28 <fizzie> Trivia fact of the day: Sonic Generations runs on the "Hedgehog Engine".
23:17:39 <Bike> that's quite uncreative
23:18:39 <fizzie> (For factual accuracy: only the PC/PS3/X360 versions of Generations; but also the PS3/X360 versions of Unleashed too.)
23:18:51 <fizzie> I don't know, the name always kind of makes me smile.
23:18:56 <fizzie> It's the Hedgehog Engine.
23:19:04 <fizzie> IIRC, it has a hedgehog logo.
23:20:20 <fizzie> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/113389132/Misc/20121230-Hedgehogengine.png oh yes.
23:21:17 <Bike> ok, that is cute.
23:22:05 <fizzie> They've added the "TM" symbol, I wonder if they've actually... oh yes, http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4002:njtr9n.2.1
23:22:38 <fizzie> I like the "we're not registering the word "ENGINE" exclusively" disclaimer.
23:24:02 <oerjan> wow next year they're starting to remove the landline phone system in norway
23:34:13 <fizzie> http://www.ficora.fi/attachments/englantiav/68tsy4qIW/Telecommunication_Markets_in_the_Nordic_Countries_2011.pdf Finland is leading the drop in the "Fixed telephony subscriptions per capita" graph (page 12), but also completely nowhere in the VoIP graph (page 13).
23:35:32 <Bike> finland has resorted by cybernetic pigeons for long-distance telephony
23:36:45 <fizzie> I didn't quite realize how much mobile broadband subscriptions/use there is in here.
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23:37:11 <oerjan> http://translate.google.no/translate?hl=no&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dagbladet.no%2F2012%2F12%2F30%2Fnyheter%2Fsamferdsel%2Fpolitikk%2Finnenriks%2Ftelefon%2F25021505%2F
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23:37:49 <fizzie> "In the period 2013 to 2017, Telenor shall lay down fixed phone."
23:37:54 <fizzie> Google Translate makes it sound so dramatic.
23:38:55 <fizzie> Incidentally, our university just (a month or so ago) got rid of all their billion DECT desk phones, and just issued regular GSM phones to all personnel.
23:39:22 <fizzie> Though nobody has called it yet. :/
23:44:25 <oerjan> apparently google translate turns "Hordaland" into "Oslo" in the first paragraph :(
23:44:41 <oerjan> "like they're both countries, okay?"
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00:04:32 <Sgeo> elliott, monqy Fiora Phantom_Hoover Whatever-Taneb-is-being-today
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00:17:25 <GreyKnight> zzo38: how did the candles thing work?
00:18:40 <Sgeo> "According to some mathematical theorem, 7 is a large enough n to get a perfect shuffle."
00:18:54 <Sgeo> " Shuffling simulates an actual shuffle: the list is split into halves which are merged back together by repeatedly pulling the top card off one of the halves, randomly selecting one half or the other"
00:20:08 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Candles? Do you mean in the Dungeons&Dragons game? I am almost finished recording it and then you can read how it work.
00:20:48 <GreyKnight> You said "It is a little bit like a game of chess." which interested me
00:21:34 <zzo38> What I mean is that a few of the kind of tactics involved in chess have similar things in this game.
00:23:32 <GreyKnight> Like when you castle your level 20 Fighter with a stone golem? :o)
00:24:43 <zzo38> OK, but that isn't precisely what I was thinking of; read my recordings to see more specifically what it is in this case.
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00:27:12 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
00:28:31 <GreyKnight> <ais523> I think anticipation2 may be the first successful program that intentionally sets its flag to zero, and knows it's intentionally setting its flag to zero when it does so
00:28:32 <GreyKnight> I think that is how most people use the word "intentionally" :-P
00:29:43 <oerjan> this is a different meaning that ais523 intentionally stumbled upon
00:30:13 <zzo38> Currently it is not on gopher but I may fix that.
00:30:31 <zzo38> However, that file alone is not sufficient because if you want to print it you need dungeonsrecording.tex as well.
00:31:20 <GreyKnight> Is there a Tristan to go with Isolde? :o)
00:32:48 <GreyKnight> hopping forward is an interesting tactic, although risky if the enemy manages to identify what power you just used
00:33:00 <GreyKnight> (now they have a minute to prepare :-o)
00:33:13 <zzo38> Yes I know, it can be risky
00:34:08 <GreyKnight> how did you anticipate where the candles were to go? Was there a diagram drawn on the floor?
00:34:36 <zzo38> No; I did not manage to anticipate it. That was Isolde, not me (Kjugobe), anyways.
00:35:43 * oerjan wonders how zzo38 pronounces the "Kj"
00:36:04 <zzo38> oerjan: By itself it isn't, but with "Kju" it can be pronounced.
00:36:26 <GreyKnight> oh, well, how did Isolde anticipate it then :-P
00:36:47 <zzo38> GreyKnight: Badly.
00:37:04 <GreyKnight> I think you need mouth-tentacles to pronounce it correctly
00:37:18 <oerjan> or to be granny weatherwax
00:37:31 <zzo38> Yes, maybe it is difficult to pronounce without
00:38:49 <nortti> GreyKnight: pronounced witjout mouth-tentacles
00:38:50 <oerjan> it's just that kjugobe is _very_ simply to pronounce for a norwegian with norwegian spelling rules :)
00:39:45 <GreyKnight> Iuckqlwviv might be easy to pronounce if you are from Hungary :o)
00:39:48 <zzo38> oerjan: O, I don't know Norwegian and Finnish spelling rules! Maybe, if you are Norwegian you can pronounce it that way. Otherwise, I will pronounce my way.
00:40:11 <oerjan> no, not hungary. czechia or georgia maybe.
00:40:32 <nortti> finnish spelling rule is pretty much: pronounce it as it was IPA
00:42:23 <nortti> only exception I can think of is ŋ being written as ng
00:43:22 <oerjan> (those tend to go together in many languages)
00:44:27 <nortti> short ŋ was nk ans long ŋ was ng
00:45:13 <oerjan> nk = ŋk is what i meant, but maybe finnish doesn't do that
00:45:30 <zzo38> Now I have it on gopher named dnd/level20.tex
00:45:30 <oerjan> also i don't think ä and ö are the ipa forms :)
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00:47:52 <nortti> ä ia æ and ö is ə, I think
00:47:57 <oerjan> and if you look closely there are probably other details. e.g. is a pronounced as ipa a or ipa ɑ
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00:50:31 <nortti> how is a pronoumced then?
00:52:35 <oerjan> further back. i believe the swedish short a is like that
00:52:38 <zzo38> I have typed the last few paragraphs now; where we are in the card playing room.
00:52:52 <zzo38> Actually I missed one.
00:53:37 <zzo38> OK, now I am done.
00:53:47 <oerjan> it's not further back, it's _middle_
00:55:43 <nortti> ah. I never thought about those two as different letters (?)
00:56:46 <nortti> finnish spelling is derived from swediah, german and latin
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00:58:23 <oerjan> "The phonemic contrast between front /a/ and back /ɑ/ is only partially maintained in Standard French, leading some researchers to reject the idea of two distinct phonemes.[11] However, the distinction is still clearly maintained in other dialects, such as that of Quebec."
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00:59:23 <oerjan> i guess those two vowels tend to get merged and split a lot as languages evolve
01:04:21 <zzo38> How I mean tactics of similar to chess game, is such as: confusion, repairing weaknesses, zwischenzug, counter, conservation of resources, and so on.
01:04:31 <olsner> apparently swedish a is either IPA ä or ɑ
01:05:19 <GreyKnight> what exactly happened at the end there with the candles anyway
01:05:42 <GreyKnight> I thought it might be /pyrotechnics/ at first but that only creates light or smoke, not actual fire
01:05:54 <GreyKnight> maybe something similar or a modification of it
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01:06:37 <zzo38> GreyKnight: I did finish typing what happened so far, by now; you can reread it. Yes I know it is not pyrotechnics; I thought of the same thing as you, there. I am unsure exactly what it is, but I know it is much bigger fire; and I do have some plans to defend against it.
01:06:39 <oerjan> GreyKnight: you dare to tell on 31 dec that pyrotechnics doesn't create fire? :P
01:06:58 <oerjan> i'm sure there will be plenty of firefighters to disagree with you
01:07:23 <zzo38> oerjan: They mean the spell called "pyrotechnics", which creates light, not fire.
01:07:38 <oerjan> THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK
01:08:26 <zzo38> Yes I think that is what they want you to think (whether or not it is correct).
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01:12:31 <zzo38> My defense is partly inspired by Soltis's book "The Art of Defense in Chess".
01:12:35 <quintopia> mroman: i'm not sure if anyone answered you, but 3-SAT is NP because any logic circuit can be evaluated in time linear in the number of logic operations.
01:12:56 <quintopia> oerjan: Gregor has yet to install it. elliott objects to its installation.
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01:14:44 <coppro> quintopia: install what?
01:15:38 <oerjan> i don't recall elliott being against the principle of the new scoring...
01:15:49 <GreyKnight> Phantom_Hoover: so what is the plan for your Raspberry Pi?
01:16:22 <GreyKnight> I was hoping for something marginally more esoteric. Are you using a befunge torrent client at least??
01:16:35 <quintopia> oerjan: see the bfjoust talk page and the logs for the most recent day i posted to it
01:18:21 <coppro> elliott: man, when did you stop being really annoying
01:18:23 <quintopia> i had an esolang bunny attack me the other night
01:18:50 <quintopia> is there a language based on algebra? where the only command is "solve this equation"?
01:19:01 <coppro> fractran doesn't really count
01:19:18 <olsner> there is that thing with diophantine equations
01:19:19 <Bike> quintopia: chaitin wrote a lisp to diophantine equation compiler once, apparently.
01:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hey guys does anyone know of turing-equivalent graph colouring problems?
01:21:35 <quintopia> graph-coloring doesnt seem turing-complete
01:21:48 <quintopia> unless you are talking infinite graphs?
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01:28:20 <GreyKnight> "It takes the compiler only a few minutes to convert the 300-line LISP interpreter into a 200-page 17,000-variable universal exponential Diophantine equation. The resulting equation is a little large"
01:28:52 <Bike> the maxwell's equations of programming :')
01:29:04 <GreyKnight> Chaitin's conception of "a little large" is similar to ais523's conception of "intentionally" :-)
01:30:12 <GreyKnight> this little adventure takes place in Algorithmic Information Theory BTW
01:30:27 <Bike> everything chaitin does takes place there
01:32:04 <Bike> chapter of what?
01:33:39 <Bike> Jokes are hard.
01:37:54 <GreyKnight> I was just reading https://github.com/ginatrapani/todo.txt-cli/wiki/The-Todo.txt-Format from the logs earlier
01:38:22 <GreyKnight> "The beauty of todo.txt is that it’s completely unstructured [...] To get started, use special notation [...]"
01:38:59 <GreyKnight> The syntax rules are about three screenfuls long here
01:39:03 <Bike> so is that thing seriously just for todo lists?
01:39:22 <Bike> maybe i'm just not busy enough but i'd usually use just a list
01:39:43 <Bike> or org-mode if i was writing for a productivity blog, maybe
01:39:45 * GreyKnight files "completely unstructured" alongside "intentionally"
01:40:03 <GreyKnight> Bike: well there is some software that helps you organise the list
01:40:50 <Bike> do you communicate with it via pheremones?
01:41:46 <GreyKnight> no but somebody should create a pheromone interface layer
01:42:54 <GreyKnight> "We use a lowercase x so that completed tasks sort to the bottom of the task list using standard sort tools." <-- erm x wasn't the last letter of the alphabet last time I checked
01:43:31 <zzo38> But maybe 'y' and 'z' and so on are not being used.
01:44:25 <Bike> GreyKnight: as gone through before, this is someone who thinks "plain text" is easy and universal.
01:44:56 <Bike> so, probably someone who's not even very good at English. and/or dumb.
01:45:01 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I may want to have a task such as "yell at elliott" or "zap oerjan"!
01:45:25 <GreyKnight> Bike: "This format has been developed and refined over the course of 5 years by the Todo.txt community of users and developers."
01:45:39 <zzo38> Is it ASCII sorting order?
01:45:51 <Bike> GreyKnight: great, now i'm depressed
01:45:53 <zzo38> If that is it then you should use ~ if you want to put at the end.
01:46:20 <GreyKnight> zzo38: I guess it is? They don't say ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:46:27 <Bike> zzo38: sorting tools don't seem to be specified beyond "standard" (lol)
01:46:45 <Bike> zzo38: also, tasks can apparently be arbitrary text, so zapping zzos is quite allowed...
01:47:05 <Bike> (is that the correct plural of "zzo"? what is the significance of 38? so many questions)
01:47:13 <GreyKnight> Bike: I liked how they think txt files are OS agnostic too. As far as I know Notepad.exe STILL can't handle line endings other than CRLF.
01:48:00 <GreyKnight> zzos 1--37 were dismal failures. But the lessons learned from them led to the construction of the biggest and best yet
01:48:16 <Bike> GreyKnight: bush hid the facts
01:48:53 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hid_the_facts quite possibly
01:53:22 <GreyKnight> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/todotxt/message/3229 <-- CHOMP
01:55:01 <Bike> "Yes that solved the problem.... sort of"
01:55:09 <Bike> "The easy fix is to use wordpad instead of notepad." awesome.
01:56:16 <zzo38> The MS-DOS text editor, Visual Studio, and other programs, support LF line endings and CRLF line endings.
01:56:30 <zzo38> Although it doesn't work with Notepad.
01:58:40 <Bike> i kind of have to respect notepad's continuing lack of features, though. unless it can read mail since XP but I doubt it?
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02:02:15 <GreyKnight> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/todotxt/message/4611 <-- I have no idea what a MIT is or what's going wrong with that command
02:02:28 <GreyKnight> looks like sed vomited all over the terminal
02:03:52 <Bike> «can't read 11 s/{[0-9]\{4\}\.[0-9]\{2\}\.[0-9]\{2\}}/{2012.10.26}/: No such file or directory» wow, i almost want to know how you fuck up that bad
02:05:58 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think that Racket isn't as flexible as I'd like
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02:08:14 <kmc> Paint did get more feature-ful though
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02:09:15 <GreyKnight> "There’s no [...] tags or flags" There are both of those things :-I
02:09:31 <kmc> today i am learning how to make bastardized pirozhki out of biscuits in a can
02:15:01 <kmc> GreyKnight: yeah, i edited that article to tone down their paean to the mythical format of "plain text"
02:21:30 <kmc> what's with british people using 'stone' as a unit of weight
02:22:16 <GreyKnight> People use units of mass as units of weight all the time, this one is no different
02:22:28 <kmc> that's not what i object to
02:22:40 <kmc> it's just a weird unit that nobody else uses or even knows about
02:23:34 <kmc> perhaps the imprecision is a virtue though
02:24:04 <kmc> it's easy to obsess over weight fluctuations of 1 lb or 1 kg[f]
02:24:05 <GreyKnight> shrug, I consider the Imperial system a waste of my brain cells to remember anyway :-)
02:24:25 <kmc> in a way that is counterproductive
02:24:32 <GreyKnight> (it amuses me slightly that America is one of the great bastions of Imperial measure though, what with the whole Independence thing)
02:25:01 <kmc> except we don't use quite the same system, either
02:25:04 <olsner> iirc the american imperial units are all slightly different from the british ones
02:25:14 <kmc> a US fluid ounce is significantly different from a UK fluid ounce
02:25:15 <olsner> for Independence, presumably
02:26:12 <GreyKnight> olsner: that and the refusal to use SI is enough evidence to make me think they deliberately want to be incompatible :-)
02:27:37 <GreyKnight> I discovered recently that many Americans don't know what a fortnight is
02:28:07 <GreyKnight> I think we should revive the use of sennight just to mess with their heads B-)
02:28:46 <olsner> about that, it's really quite weird how everyone seems to agree on the seven-day week
02:33:04 <kmc> the french revolutionary calendar had 10-day weeks!
02:33:06 <Phantom_Hoover> (although they thought it was 9-day because romans didn't understand counting)
02:33:14 <kmc> it also had Pantsless Days
02:33:59 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do you mean that the last day of one week was the same as the first day of the next week?
02:38:38 <kmc> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 72nd day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3178
02:41:17 <olsner> looks like a discordian date
02:41:41 <Bike> the aftermath is my favorite month.
02:44:10 <oerjan> secundo kalendas januarii
02:45:51 <oerjan> *pridie kalendas januarii
02:49:03 <kmc> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/onetesla/onetesla-a-diy-singing-tesla-coil
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02:49:14 <kmc> this was developed at the hackerspace two blocks from my house :)
02:49:48 <oerjan> http://www.roman-colosseum.info/roman-life/julian-calendar.htm (possibly beware of popups)
02:52:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: sure, many people have made them, but i don't know about an easy to assemble kit
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02:55:20 <kmc> this is neat because it's something that anybody can build with basic soldering skills in an afternoon
02:55:37 <kmc> and it seems to be reasonably and safely designed, with MIDI / computer connectivity
02:55:49 <kmc> no, it does not fundamentally advance humanity's understanding of the laws of physics
02:56:48 <kmc> the midi interfacing bit is not just optically isolated but actually lives in a separate box with a fiber optic cable to the HV board
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03:02:26 <kmc> $250 is steep though
03:02:31 <kmc> i might get one if the price goes down post-kickstarter
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04:07:15 <ion> It would be cool to have one, but yeah, that price is a bit high.
04:15:37 <zzo38> For purpose of making some computer game, I wanted to make the second C preprocessor. Instead of "CPP" it can be "CPQ" the second one, which run after the first C preprocessor. Which finds commands with $ first to do replacements, and then further reads it to remove duplicate definitions and so on.
04:15:58 <zzo38> I am not exactly sure what to start with.
04:16:13 <zzo38> But I do have some ideas about how to write such a program.
04:17:35 * Sgeo wonders if zzo38 would enjoy Racket
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04:29:53 <zzo38> Is there a C parser code which I can change to what I need?
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04:43:49 <Sgeo> zzo38, Racket is a Scheme derivative that, among other things, lets you make new languages that smoothly interoperate with other Racket modules
04:44:16 <Sgeo> Redefining function application, defining a different reader, etc.
04:47:43 <Sgeo> I'm currently reading a tutorial about implementing Brainfuck as a Racket language
04:50:01 <zzo38> Some examples of what I wish of a second C preprocessor (I have some ideas how to implement but not quite):
04:51:20 <zzo38> $macro(red,x,y) { int @z=(x); hello(z,y); } red(1,2) becomes int _newname0=(1); hello(_newname0,2);
04:51:42 <zzo38> int x=5; void xxx(int) {} int x=5; becomes int x=5; void xxx(int) {}
04:51:55 <zzo38> int x; void xxx(int) {} int x=5; becomes int x=5; void xxx(int) {}
04:52:31 <zzo38> int a[]={1,2,3,,,,}; becomes int a[]={1,2,3};
04:53:49 <zzo38> $pool(256); 'Apple'+'0'+'Car'+'Bat'+'Car' becomes "Apple","Bat","Car"; 256+'0'+258+257+258
04:56:52 <zzo38> void xxx(void) { $promote(-1) { int global1; } return; } becomes int global1; void xxx(void) { return; }
04:58:56 <zzo38> Furthermore there must be $template and $data commands
04:59:27 <zzo38> Is there anything like this which already exist?
05:22:39 <zzo38> One problem seem to be, that in C some commands you will have the } terminates it but in other cases it is not terminated unless a semicolon.
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05:26:58 <zzo38> Will it work for this kind of preprocessor to just require that they all end in a semicolon or separated by a semicolon (like Haskell does)?
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06:03:17 <zzo38> For example, is this valid? void xyz(int x, double***y) { putchar(x); *y=0; }; int uuu=9; (notice a extra semicolon)
06:06:58 <zzo38> Is it allowed in GNU?
06:10:22 <zzo38> Is there a way to work around?
06:10:29 <Jafet> Well, gcc doesn't care.
06:11:37 <zzo38> Do other compilers which support GNU extensions care?
06:12:07 <Jafet> They might, but I don't care about other compilers.
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06:13:40 <olsner> some compilers actually bother to warn about extraneous semicolons
06:18:07 <zzo38> I mean such as clang with GNU89 mode.
06:20:16 <zzo38> Which compilers make such warning and can it be suppressed partially?
07:10:44 <zzo38> What is the command in GCC to add an extra step after the preprocessor?
07:11:06 <zzo38> (For if the filename suffix is a certain suffix)
07:18:00 <coppro> XKCD is kinda okay today, but the alt text is wonderful
07:21:37 <kmc> http://goatkcd.com/1154/sfw [nsfw]
07:26:58 <coppro> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1829
07:28:06 <Bike> i read a story about the search for the goatse guy once. i think his name might actually have been kirk? i forget.
07:29:47 <Fiora> to boldly split infinitives where no one has split infinitives before
07:30:54 <kmc> yeah i read that article
07:32:33 <kmc> my friend is talking about how he put an Intel SSD in his original Xbox
07:32:55 <kmc> i think he should put on neon lights and a big spoiler
07:33:34 <coppro> Bike: coincidental, though
07:33:46 <shachaf> Fiora: What's the matter with split infinitives?
07:34:00 <Fiora> sorry, just an old joke <_<;
07:34:04 <Bike> coppro: or is it?? etc
07:34:07 <coppro> I always attempt to pointlessly split infinitives
07:34:22 <coppro> Bike: no, it is. The comic was posted before goatse's identity became well-known
07:35:57 <shachaf> Bike: Did you work out the type derivatives thing?
07:36:44 <kmc> 4:20 split infinitives every day
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08:37:38 <Sgeo> You know how I know that Clojure has utterly poisoned my brain?
08:37:51 <Bike> everyone keeps telling you so?
08:37:54 <Sgeo> I am impressed by the foo in (let foo () ...) being first-class
08:38:01 <Sgeo> Seriously impressed
08:38:03 <Sgeo> It's a bit nuts
08:38:11 <Sgeo> I should not be this impressed
08:38:47 <Bike> clojure doesn't lack recursive lexical functions, does it
08:39:05 <Sgeo> It lacks them being tail-recursive
08:39:18 <Bike> what's that got to do with first-class-ness?
08:39:47 <Sgeo> Well, it's also the fact that with that let it's sort of anonymous, don't need to letfn
08:40:09 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm just slowly forgetting Clojure
08:40:11 <Bike> it's the exact opposite of anonymous, "foo" is right there! it is nonymous
08:41:31 <Sgeo> I tend to think of "anonymous" as "not exposing a name to the outside directly"
08:42:08 <monqy> whats up with this??
08:42:15 <Bike> indeed, what is up with this
08:47:36 <monqy> good night shachaf
08:48:06 <zzo38> Do you know how in GCC to tell it to add an additional step after the preprocessor for files with a certain suffix, while otherwise treated them as a C source file? I looked at the document of spec strings but am not sure how to do it.
08:52:26 <Gregor> You'd have to just separate those steps.
08:52:41 <Gregor> gcc -E <input file> > foo.tmp; othertool foo.tmp > foo.i; gcc foo.i
08:53:08 <zzo38> There is not a way to specify it in the spec strings?
08:57:32 <Jafet> echo -e '#!/bin/sh\ncpp "$@" | foo' > /usr/local/bin/cpp
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08:59:05 <Sgeo> Awesome, I can in fact write macros that redefine #%app within their lexical scope
09:00:07 <Bike> perfectly safe
09:00:35 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/5601436
09:00:42 <Sgeo> The result of that is "HONK"
09:03:22 <zzo38> Jafet: I don't think GCC will work like that though
09:04:08 <Jafet> No, because it's dumb and hardcodes the path to its favourite cpp
09:04:35 <Jafet> But you can force it to use another one
09:05:04 <Jafet> with stocks and a riding crop
09:05:30 <zzo38> I think CPP is built-in to GCC though.
09:06:07 <zzo38> Even though it can be told to run only the preprocessor, and there are spec strings to control them, I don't know how to make it run differently.
09:07:36 <Jafet> You can't tell it to run another cpp? Weak.
09:07:52 <zzo38> You can specify such that .ZZ are C++ source files or whatever, and check the prefix within a spec string, but I don't know how to make spec strings run additional programs.
09:08:55 <zzo38> It also says you can use pipes but it doesn't really explain how.
09:09:00 <kmc> zzo38: you should make a variant of the unix 'top' utility and name it 'zztop'
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09:16:52 <Taneb> Why the hell am I still subscribed to totheark on Youtube
09:17:00 <Taneb> I haven't watched Marble Hornets in months
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09:57:57 <coppro> which are our markov bots again?
09:59:26 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
09:59:34 <HackEgo> ? \ @ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fuck \ google \ hatesgeo \ hi \ interp \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ karma \ karma- \ karma+ \ learn \ log \ logurl \ lua \ luac \ luarocks \ luarocks-admin \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ No \ pastaquote \ paste \
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10:04:06 <HackEgo> 329) <zzo38> I figured out something about C program. If you use ? : a lot then you don't need as much parentheses but it makes it more difficult to understand.
10:05:33 <monqy> what were bin/hi and bin/fuck
10:05:48 <monqy> maybe they were worth keeping...
10:06:05 <coppro> hi was "echo hi" and fuck was "printf '%s' '$1'
10:08:58 <HackEgo> 2003-07-27.txt:02:09:56: <Taaus> Gravy made out of people!
10:13:30 <coppro> fizzie: do you realize you've been here nearly 10 years?
10:35:46 <zzo38> I figured out how it might be done, by using the COLLECT_GCC and COLLECT_GCC_OPTIONS environment variables (which are not available inside of spec strings, but are available to the programs called by spec strings, and COLLECT_GCC_OPTIONS but not COLLECT_GCC needs to be processed by eval)
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11:17:32 <fizzie> coppro: Noooo... that can't be right.
11:17:43 <coppro> fizzie: check the logs
11:18:06 <fizzie> It must be some kind of a mistake. Maybe some of the years were skipped.
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12:14:47 <fizzie> (It's not even "nearly 10 years", it's over it already: "[2002-12-14 22:21:33] -!- fizzies [fizban@bistromath.gehennom.org] has joined #esoteric")
12:16:06 <Jafet> So, have you mastered the esoteric?
12:17:42 <fizzie> That's not quite my first join either, since it seems there was a "fizzie [fizban@colin.befunge.org]" on-channel at that time; it seems to be just when I got my new (well, then-new) IRC box up and running.
12:18:35 <fizzie> Yeah, Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002 would have been the first.
12:19:22 <fizzie> And there were already six other dudes/duders/dudettes present.
12:21:41 <fizzie> (navigator, dbc, lament, deltab, exarkun; and very soon after, calamari.)
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15:34:14 <elliott> 19:44:23: <oerjan> but > and :t pass an expression to mueval, which has some charset problem
15:34:14 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:34:21 <elliott> oerjan: :t actually uses ghci directly
15:34:43 <oerjan> i think i corrected myself
15:35:16 <fizzie> It was TOO LATE FOR THAT.
15:35:35 <oerjan> in any case, it's clearly a heap of charset messes
15:35:54 <shachaf> oerjan: The problem is not with mueval, it's with lambdabot.
15:36:22 <shachaf> lambdabot is using the same mueval as before, but the version of GHC it's using has been upgraded.
15:36:35 <ion> % mueval -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:36:37 <ion> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `�'
15:36:47 <oerjan> ah right, the new charset selection system...
15:36:54 <ion> % ghc -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:37:14 <shachaf> Why did it use to work with mueval?
15:38:16 <oerjan> ion: what are the relevant environment variables as you start mueval?
15:39:12 <oerjan> i'm asking you to check, btw
15:39:24 <ion> What are the relevante environment variables?
15:39:26 <oerjan> also, for their values, not their identities
15:39:59 <oerjan> LC_* and LANG stuff, i assume
15:40:06 <fizzie> LANG, LC_CTYPE and LC_ALL are reasonably relevant for character sets.
15:42:14 <ion> % env -i LANG=en_US.UTF-8 HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" mueval -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'; env -i LANG=en_US.UTF-8 HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" ghc -ignore-dot-ghci -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:42:17 <ion> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input `�'
15:42:50 <fizzie> LANG does not override what LC_FOO are set to, FWIW.
15:43:59 <oerjan> ghc uses utf-8 for files regardless, this is documented
15:44:43 <ion> % env -i HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" mueval -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'; env -i HOME="$HOME" PATH="$PATH" ghc -ignore-dot-ghci -e 'let ä = 42 in ä'
15:44:47 <ion> mueval-core: Enum.toEnum{Word8}: tag (56515) is outside of bounds (0,255)
15:44:50 <ion> <interactive>:1:5: lexical error at character '\56515'
15:45:30 <lambdabot> mueval: recoverEncode: invalid argument (invalid character)
15:45:45 <fizzie> Onneksi ääkköset eivät ole enää ongelma.
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15:51:12 <ion> Ääliö, älä läiky.
15:52:31 <fizzie> Kenelle kellot soivat.
15:53:02 <ion> Kokko kokosi kokon Kokkoon. Koko kokonko kokosi? Koko kokon.
15:53:28 <fizzie> Vesihiisi sihisi hississä.
15:54:17 <fizzie> Onkiva rovasti on kiva rovasti sillä onkiva rovasti onki varovasti. (This loses something in the textual representation.)
15:55:10 <olsner> Onkiva dean dean is nice it has a nice fishing rod gently Dean
15:55:35 <fizzie> Weird, I got: "Onkiva dean dean is nice because onkiva dean angling gently."
15:55:36 <oerjan> poor google translate is very confused
15:56:47 <olsner> it suggested replacing an onkiva with on kiva, so I did that
15:57:02 <fizzie> Also Wiktionary says "rovasti" is "canon, provost" which I find more likely. It's a church title, and "provost" probably has the same roots.
15:57:36 <olsner> provost is "test cheese" in Swedish
15:57:46 <olsner> or perhaps sample cheese
15:58:13 <fizzie> "From Medieval Latin prōpositus, from Latin praepositus (“placed in front”)."
15:59:44 <fizzie> "Bonfire bonfire gathered the pile. Size kokonko your size? Size bonfire." I think you're right, it must be all confuzzled.
15:59:48 <fizzie> fungot: Can you do better?
15:59:50 <fungot> fizzie: was mixed with something very like fear seized the whole assemblage on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the first gate, had not troubled me; and nigger-man was admitted as much for help as for companionship. we decided to find a bell or peal of bells in the tower whose narrow, louvre-boarded lancet windows his fnord had studied so often. here he knew strange things had happened.
16:01:03 <olsner> "Bonfire bonfire gathered the pile." could be part of a nursery rhyme about burning witches
16:03:46 <olsner> fungot: what do you think about witch hunts?
16:03:48 <fungot> olsner: as i thought of the lands and persons i had left seemed involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next opening and began to climb the worn stone steps which must originally have emerged to earth somewhat southwest of the present day, was fnord though no one seemed to him to continue, since conditions so singular are fnord but the rationalism of my mind and made me wish fervently that i might wake up
16:04:25 <fizzie> Interestingly Google has interpreted "kokosi" correctly in the first sentence (as "gathered", the third-person singular imperfect tense of verb koota 'to gather'), but not in the second (where it has opted for "your size", from the noun koko 'size' with the second-person singular possessive suffix -si).
16:05:06 * oerjan bans fungot for saying the n word
16:05:07 <fungot> oerjan: perception envisaged. edmund carter had dared to see. i moved toward the window and let himself down to the express office i was informed that no shipment for me had arrived. my next act, performed amidst a growing alarm, was to convey press reports to the arkham for fnord and forgiveness. zann said that he had
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16:05:55 <fizzie> I think oerjan meant "narrow".
16:06:03 <fizzie> Whoops, I said it too.
16:06:18 <oerjan> no, it was a different word with the same syllable structure
16:07:40 <fizzie> Somehow I was reminded of http://basicinstructions.net/storage/2012-03-08-mobyrerun.gif
16:07:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft* nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:08:45 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
16:08:46 <fizzie> fungot: Any policy resolutions for the upcoming new year?
16:08:49 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i should like to mention a couple of, in order not to affect the fishing industry after the year 2000 on whether a " brave new world, preferring instead to turn the new rules, either. since irradiation is practised in the member states have expressed. we are committed to promoting the dialogue. amendment to the corbett report the second report on fraud prevention for 1996, and this without specifying what
16:09:32 <olsner> fungot should learn to match quotes and parens
16:10:07 <fizzie> Oh ho, you hit The Bug again.
16:10:09 <fizzie> (The Perl version knows how to do that.)
16:10:36 <fizzie> There's a Perl version of the babbling that I use for testing.
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16:11:02 <fizzie> Also for fun, since it can take an initial context. So you can use it as a "continue the sentence" thing.
16:11:16 <olsner> ah, you should port that to fungot
16:11:20 <fungot> olsner: the commission is nonetheless proposing to extend the period mentioned. i can assure you, however, as stated in the letter does not, in my opinion, zero risk does not stop there. i fully support my colleague, mr monti, i will insist on what i see as two quite fundamental points. the first is that the mental confusion of the same opinion from the international community to keep support for the right of those regions whic
16:12:04 <fizzie> olsner: http://sprunge.us/OURc
16:12:25 * olsner is such a bonus pretzel!
16:12:49 <fizzie> Oh no, the explosions have begun.
16:13:22 <fizzie> (It's 13 minutes past 6pm here; fireworks are permitted past 6pm.)
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16:13:45 <olsner> 6h before the new year? poor dogs and owners
16:14:29 <fizzie> I think there's generally a burst at around this time, then it simmers down, and then heats up again for the 9pm-to-midnight period.
16:15:07 <olsner> I wonder if there are any regulations at all here
16:15:25 <fizzie> We have this... rocky hilltop with no buildings kind of thing to one direction of the house, a lot of people launch their fireworks from there.
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16:16:08 <fizzie> Apparently the allowed time interval is from 6pm to 2am.
16:16:20 <oerjan> explosions have begun here too. like, two days ago.
16:17:41 <fizzie> The firework sales started on December 27th, and there were a couple of booms back then too.
16:17:47 <fizzie> But only very sporadically.
16:18:07 <oerjan> ok i guess it was sporadic until today
16:18:30 <elliott> fizzie: does new year exist in finland
16:18:47 <oerjan> yes, and no, respectively
16:18:47 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
16:18:48 <olsner> can new years exist in a place that doesn't exist?
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17:26:59 <Taneb> Uses for Godel, Escher and Bach by Douglas Hofstadter number #427: holding down the circle button so you get loads of bolts on Ratchet and Clank
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17:33:57 <Phantom_Hoover> most uses of geb are a result of its physical properties though
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18:05:17 <ais523> happy australian mailman mailing list reminders day!
18:06:06 <elliott> ais523: what do you call the one that comes right before new year's specifically
18:06:29 <ais523> new year's eve, I guess
18:07:20 <elliott> I mean the reminders occasion
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18:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> australian mailman mailing list reminders eve, presumably
18:07:49 <ais523> no, that would be the day before new year's eve
18:12:42 <Sgeo> Apparently my blog made it to Planet Clojure
18:12:49 <Sgeo> https://github.com/ghoseb/planet.clojure/commit/3e6b511d81acd1cde2f1fa2e63f44d3f48eab550
18:13:12 <Sgeo> Although it's not like it's only the best and brightest who make it there
18:13:30 <Sgeo> *cough* Ryan Kelker *cough*
18:13:39 <oerjan> yes mr. comet, now you are famous!
18:21:07 <oerjan> also the oldest post on your main page lacks at least a clojure tag.
18:30:22 -!- Bike has joined.
18:32:58 <kmc> who is ryan kelker
18:33:16 <Sgeo> Added the tag. No idea how that interacts with Planet Clojure
18:34:19 <oerjan> roland "lispy" clojure, french mad scientist supervillain
18:34:38 <Sgeo> kmc, the guy who posted this http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/122ll8/free_clojure_course/ and http://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/zrs7c/doseq_vs_for/
18:36:36 <kmc> are they bad or something
18:40:11 <Sgeo> I think the person doesn't understand Clojure that well
18:40:19 <Sgeo> Yet believes he is capable of teaching it
18:41:01 <Bike> "The loop function / The doseq function / The for function" nice
18:45:20 <oerjan> i just can't not paste this http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2012/12/24/the-quantum-earthworm/
18:46:16 <Bike> underground alchemists
18:53:49 <kmc> that sounds like half of #haskell :/
18:54:16 <oerjan> half of #haskell are underground alchemists, check
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18:55:36 <elliott> kmc: #haskell is better now!
18:57:02 <Sgeo> The answer to a portion of the badness seems obvious: Two lambdabots
18:57:10 <Sgeo> One with Caleskell, one with Realskell
18:57:15 <elliott> how about just one lambdabot
18:57:24 <elliott> I think there is only one Caleskell thing now
18:57:36 <elliott> but it is also the one Cale is least likely to get rid of
18:57:37 <Sgeo> By Realskell I mean non-Caleskell Haskell
18:57:58 <elliott> yes but Caleskell barely exists any more
18:58:19 <Sgeo> Oh, what's the remaining Caleskell thing
18:58:23 <Sgeo> I misread that line atfirst
18:58:34 <lambdabot> Functor f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
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19:08:50 <kmc> :t 3 x + 7
19:09:03 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (a0 -> t))
19:09:03 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity chec...
19:09:16 <elliott> kmc: the f/x/etc. things might be Caleskell but they're also very useful for pedagogy
19:10:26 <kmc> they are useful yeah
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19:19:08 <HackEgo> 804) * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds
19:22:26 -!- monqy has joined.
19:22:49 * GreyKnight shoots oerjan with a firework -----==>
19:22:52 * kmc makes a brainfuck derivative for stabbing people in the face over the internet
19:24:06 * GreyKnight makes a firework for deriving people over the Internet
19:24:20 * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for bricking brains. checkmate Phantom_Hoover!
19:26:30 <GreyKnight> I want to read more of http://phantom-hoover.tumblr.com/
19:30:07 <Sgeo> GreyKnight, read my blog instead?
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19:31:20 <Sgeo> Phantom Hoover's tumblr is funny. Mine is not.
19:32:30 <Sgeo> I'm going to be AFK later
19:32:31 <oerjan> on the bright side, your tumblr is written by you
19:32:48 <Sgeo> Heading out east
19:36:11 <GreyKnight> IIRC it is ghostwritten by someone else
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19:52:34 <Bike> hate mail for what?
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19:53:59 <HackEgo> WetThePeople: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:54:22 <Bike> i mean, what was the hate about
19:55:01 <Fiora> oh, not like, an unpopular homestuck ship?
19:55:30 <oerjan> i have this nagging suspicion neither Bike nor Fiora has seen Phantom_Hoover's tumblr
19:56:03 <Bike> oh is it that prettycurehentaixxx one that followed fiora? i bet it is
19:56:35 <Fiora> ... just two posts? XD
19:56:45 <Bike> god damn it, i thought you were joking
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20:38:27 <Sgeo> I wish it was socially acceptable for men to use purses.
20:38:48 <Bike> it's socially acceptable for you to hit jerks with them so go for it
20:38:50 <Sgeo> I also hate the fact that at least on this matter I'm valuing social acceptability over function
20:42:14 <Fiora> maybe strike a balance by using a messenger bag?
20:42:30 <Fiora> I use one instead of a purse anyways most of the time
20:42:44 <Sgeo> Is it socially acceptable to wear a backpack outside of school contexts?
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20:43:11 <Fiora> I always felt weird with that, it's actually kind of frustrating
20:43:24 <Fiora> it was infinitely easier to carry my laptop in a backpack than with my messenger bag
20:43:30 <Fiora> since my back is way stronger than my arms or shoulders
20:43:40 <Fiora> but after graduating from school I felt like an idiot wearing it
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20:45:53 * shachaf tends to carry a backpack most places.
20:46:06 <GreyKnight> I have my backpack on pretty much everywhere
20:46:23 <shachaf> Perhaps I should go to school to get rid of that habit.
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20:50:32 <greyooze> Sgeo: http://sgeo.tumblr.com/post/38587255013/straight-translations-of-monads-from-haskell-to-x is interesting, I didn't know people were exporting monads to other languages
20:50:34 <greyooze> you should write more about the hows whys and wherefores :-)
20:50:44 -!- greyooze has changed nick to GreyKnight.
20:51:26 <Sgeo> I could rant about the how nots
20:51:59 <Sgeo> I'm going to get going soon
20:56:33 <HackEgo> 100) <alise> like, just like I'd mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English <ais523> alise: that's great filler <alise> ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language...
20:57:38 <HackEgo> 857) [after discussing lens] <hagb4rd> they seem to be the fashion of this winter <GreyKnight> hagb4rd is wearing this season's Lens, a stunning little ensemble with functor trim
20:57:47 <Bike> all i can think is "prolapse", weird
20:57:54 <HackEgo> 198) <j-invariant> 22:55 < qfr> How am I supposed to develop software in Haskell if I can't even prepare my projects in UML?! It seems like an impossible task. <j-invariant> HAHA [...] <j-invariant> this is amazing, like meeting a Mormon or something \ 213) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org
20:58:40 <Bike> i like this guy
20:58:42 <HackEgo> 213) <j-invariant> I need a new desktop background <Gregor> j-invariant: Try http://codu.org/spinners.png (tiled) <j-invariant> uhrghoaudp
20:59:04 <Bike> hey, i actually used to use that as my background.
21:02:05 <ais523> coppro: we know Sgeo has a social life
21:02:09 <ais523> but his social life is indeed absurd
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21:03:07 <coppro> my social life is pretty absurd
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21:25:43 <fizzie> ais523: http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_tapeheat.png
21:26:48 <fizzie> (I also made the per-program-and-tape-length plots have a fixed cell width, like quintopia suggested, which indeed made them look better.)
21:27:11 <fizzie> (Your program is kind of the odd one out.)
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21:30:59 <ais523> fizzie: yeah, it does a full tape clear
21:31:12 <ais523> so when it wins, it's often either at its own flag, or has been going back and forth for most of the game
21:36:19 <zzo38> I think you could make monads in whatever programming language or other stuff if you know what category it is; such as, Haskell is pure functions but in other programming language it might not be do you mean monads on the pure function category, or something else? However, impure functions with side effect does form a category too, it is the (Kleisli IO) category.
21:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> all the episodes of jam got taken down from youtube when i was only halfway through
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21:46:37 <zzo38> What if some programming language is made to use monads with some category other than functions?
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22:00:22 <oerjan> zzo38: i once tried to find out what would be the monads of a prolog-like language, which is based on relations instead of functions. and whether the definite clause grammar syntax was a monadic syntax. couldn't wrap my head around it properly, though.
22:00:46 <elliott> oerjan: there's an established relation between its grammar thing and monads, I think
22:01:17 <zzo38> I think a relations can form a category too.
22:01:20 <oerjan> (the usual DCG interpretation is essentially state threading like the State monad in haskell)
22:01:38 <oerjan> zzo38: sure they do, i just don't know what kind of monads that category has
22:01:57 <zzo38> Yes, I don't quite know either.
22:02:00 <fizzie> Yaaarrr it's 20-13 here now.
22:02:16 <oerjan> x (R . S) y = exists z. x R z & z S y is the usual composition
22:02:16 <nortti> fizzie: it is 7 there?
22:02:20 <zzo38> There is a identity monad for all categories though.
22:02:24 <elliott> fizzie: Happy using the wrong timezone, Finnish fuckers!!!!
22:03:31 <oerjan> elliott: do you think that because i've discussed this question here before, or because you have an actual reference? :P
22:03:58 <elliott> oerjan: I forget, but I've definitely heard it before, and I think not from you
22:04:06 <oerjan> (possibly both at the same time, in which case i've forgotten the reference)
22:08:22 <fizzie> Fireworks from six to two.
22:08:51 <oklopol> fireworks from yesterday to next week
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22:18:10 <zzo38> The category of relations is the Kleisli category of the set monad on the category of functions. Therefore, will a monad transformer possibly tell you anything about monads on a category of relations?
22:22:09 <oerjan> do monad transformers give monads on the kleisli category of the underlying monad?
22:23:48 <zzo38> But I wonder if monad transformers could tell you anything at all about such things.
22:24:19 <oerjan> i don't know either, but that would mean you at least get some monads
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22:25:37 <oerjan> the pure morphism should have type forall a. Kleisli m a (...something...)
22:26:08 <oerjan> or forall a. a -> m (...something...)
22:26:46 <oerjan> where something shouldn't be a itself unless you want the identity monad
22:27:26 <oerjan> it seems unlikely to me that every monad transformer gives something of that form
22:28:39 <zzo38> It seems unlikely to me too
22:30:18 <zzo38> But does WriterT do that?
22:31:23 -!- nooga has joined.
22:31:44 <oerjan> so return of WriterT rewraps to the right type
22:32:17 <oerjan> :t runWriterT . return
22:32:19 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Monoid w) => a -> m (a, w)
22:35:23 <shachaf> Are you talking about corepresentability or somethin'?
22:35:31 <oerjan> and then we need mu : T (T a) -> m (T a)
22:35:53 <nooga> i've seen an argument between theorietic physicists
22:36:06 <oerjan> shachaf: no, we're wondering if WriterT (and perhaps some other transformers) gives a monad in the kleisli category of the underlying monad
22:36:06 <nooga> in Max Planck Institute
22:36:22 <nooga> it looked as follows:
22:36:36 <nooga> one guy writes pi sigma tau on the blacboard
22:36:59 <oerjan> mu :: ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:36:59 <Bike> pacific standard time?
22:37:00 <nooga> the other guy erases pi and puts lambda instead
22:37:31 <nooga> who's Bike anyway?
22:37:42 <Bike> what are bikes? we just don't know
22:37:58 <nooga> i've got a bike, you can ride if you'd like
22:38:20 <shachaf> do you like corepresentability or representability more
22:38:29 <nooga> elliott: how did you know?
22:38:40 <Bike> Corepresentability is a dog.
22:39:25 <oerjan> @hoogle ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:39:56 <elliott> nooga: it was kind of obvious
22:40:42 <oerjan> :t return . writer . join . runWriter
22:40:44 <lambdabot> (Monad ((,) a), Monad m, MonadWriter w m1) => Writer (a, w) a -> m (m1 a)
22:40:57 <shachaf> You should use (w,) instead of (,w)
22:41:17 <oerjan> shachaf: sadly transformers disagrees
22:41:27 <shachaf> sadly transformers is a liar
22:42:12 <zzo38> I agree that (w,) would be a better way to define it (and it should be itself defined as a monad)
22:45:29 <oerjan> :t return . writer . join . runWriter :: Monad m => ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:45:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `((a, w), w)'
22:45:31 <lambdabot> Expected type: ((a, w), w) -> (w, (w, w1))
22:46:05 <oerjan> :t return . join . writer
22:46:06 <lambdabot> (Monad m, MonadWriter w m1) => (m1 a, w) -> m (m1 a)
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22:46:33 <oerjan> :t return . join . writer :: Monad m => ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:46:34 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Monad ((,) a1)) arising from a use of `join'
22:46:37 <zzo38> Ignoring wrappers and stuff, (return . join) would obviously be the correct type, at least.
22:48:19 <oerjan> :t return . join . map writer . writer :: Monad m => ((a, w), w) -> m (a, w)
22:48:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(a, (a, w))' with actual type `[b0]'
22:48:20 <lambdabot> Expected type: [a0] -> (a, (a, w))
22:48:37 * oerjan decides to ignore the wrappers
22:49:37 <kmc> Hhttp://www.cs.earlham.edu/~jeremiah/linux-pix/linux20shark.jpg
22:50:59 <Bike> does linux even have that level of WordArt
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22:53:49 <kmc> obviously you just write a TRIVIAL raytracer as a bash script
22:54:17 <oerjan> `addquote <kmc> obviously you just write a TRIVIAL raytracer as a bash script
22:54:21 <HackEgo> 891) <kmc> obviously you just write a TRIVIAL raytracer as a bash script
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23:14:15 <elliott> oerjan: fuck you it's not new yea'rs yet
23:14:19 <elliott> FUCK YOU and FUCK THE NEW year
23:14:59 <Jafet> Happy happy new year's day day
23:16:25 <fizzie> `words --finnish --norwegian 10
23:16:28 <HackEgo> kuva ressaksjon jøyalaistid sykeoritselvist lasterämilliardean herrettelever persona hipeämme trenemenevimme korrekursidi
23:16:44 <fizzie> Happy jøyalaistid, everyone.
23:17:19 <zzo38> But see if you have the monad laws to make a writer monad on a category of relations.
23:19:38 <HackEgo> insens bråks förarna nationenskansens ohyggarna lovspännis ogärnblick infotoket arkt involutslöj
23:19:48 <oerjan> clearly you must mean göalaistid
23:19:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Happy involutslöj too.
23:20:31 <fizzie> And an ogärnblick lovspännis också.
23:21:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what the hell?
23:21:49 <oerjan> just keep the ohyggarna away
23:22:08 <fizzie> Don't start any bråks.
23:22:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, "involutslöj" look more like Finnish than Swedish to me
23:22:48 <oerjan> aka "Vorpal has no idea how finnish works"
23:23:43 <oerjan> Vorpal: tycker du inte det är löjligt med involutionar?
23:23:53 <Jafet> `words --gaelic 10
23:23:54 <fizzie> I don't think there's any Finnish word that would end in a "j".
23:23:55 <HackEgo> h-eòla slaid deilinn sìth thar camhnapag rìochadh shèidh cè fis
23:23:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, "involutionar"?
23:24:03 <fizzie> Hey, my user account is there.
23:24:57 <elliott> fizzie: fis is Finnish for "a really dumb terrible person", right
23:25:11 <Jafet> `words --esolangs 20
23:25:12 <HackEgo> oddball v-- jump shersuble colambda crab unisp sheltaplex betal numberwatesyze kayak bline etaplet bub fob toi formula hatercal p xs
23:25:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: sorry, *involutioner
23:26:15 <oerjan> some of those are clearly missing in the wiki
23:26:49 <oerjan> sheltaplex and colambda in particular
23:26:53 <fizzie> `run words --esolangs 20 #MORE
23:26:55 <HackEgo> chinter per alpaca 01_ nullfuck/w/ind rever eneversioncom 2d-ref hat2.0 ihat arbf nhohnhehr limp boat ver minitum bet thesquiem mdpn bit
23:27:12 <fizzie> hat2.0, the best language for hats.
23:27:20 <fizzie> hat2.0 is also right next to ihat.
23:27:33 <fizzie> At least it's obvious whose bot HackEgo is.
23:27:48 <elliott> fizzie: You didn't answer my question :,(
23:28:16 <fizzie> elliott: IT DOES NOT EXIST
23:28:24 <zzo38> OK, make up HATERCAL then. I think list of ideas does now have section about names, with some things written there.
23:28:33 <oerjan> elliott: fis is norwegian for fart, hth
23:29:20 <Vorpal> <oerjan> Vorpal: sorry, *involutioner <-- I have no idea what that is?
23:30:32 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involution might help.
23:31:50 * oerjan looks up the esoteric meaning
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23:33:13 <kmc> numberwatesyze sounds like the polish version of numberwang
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23:33:41 <oerjan> nooga: you get right working on that.
23:34:41 <oerjan> HATERCAL is like intercal except with a rather different politeness calibration. also it has GOTO.
23:35:19 <oerjan> ais523 cannot maintain it, as it uses "DAMN YOU" obligatory in places
23:37:00 <Jafet> COMPILER LANGUAGE WITH NO PRINTABLE ACRONYM
23:38:46 <oerjan> not sure that's an improvement. but then, what in HATERCAL is.
23:39:24 <oerjan> except the GOTO, which complements the flow control in the way ais523 has suggested.
23:43:00 <oerjan> the esoteric involution article is clearly relevant btw:
23:43:04 <oerjan> "As an example, the so-called descent of the Monad into matter means an involution or involving or infolding of spiritual potencies into material vehicles which coincidentally and contemporaneously, through the compelling urge of the infolding energies, unfold their own latent capacities, unwrap them, roll them forth; and this is the evolution of matter."
23:43:20 <Bike> is that leibniz or something
23:43:34 <oerjan> – Gottfried de Purucker
23:45:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: As an example, the so-called descent of the Monad into matter means an involution | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:45:45 <oerjan> nooga: <kmc> numberwatesyze sounds like the polish version of numberwang
23:45:56 <nooga> what's numberwang?
23:46:08 <Jafet> `words --esolangs 20
23:46:10 <HackEgo> hev dumbf*ck mempovar murin con bytep underix wikipleaseporth fullfuck-- rever shack bak 2d-ref shogoriendevia fanjix incal evil cha fugue flog
23:46:52 <oerjan> also http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numberwang
23:47:24 <nooga> provide context of kmc's statement' please
23:48:04 <oerjan> elliott: i wonder how it got that, i don't recognize any of the pieces
23:49:12 <oerjan> <HackEgo> oddball v-- jump shersuble colambda crab unisp sheltaplex betal numberwatesyze kayak bline etaplet bub fob toi formula hatercal p xs
23:50:00 <oerjan> nooga: it's an autogenerated esolang name
23:50:08 <nooga> am I supposed to approve that this shit is polish version of numberwang?
23:50:50 <oerjan> no, you are supposed to _make_ the polish version of numberwang, duh
23:51:00 * oerjan thinks people are _so_ slow today
23:51:37 <oerjan> DON'T MESS WITH ME, I HAVE GOOGLE TRANSLATE
23:53:24 <oerjan> nooga: this should help you get started http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=en&tl=pl&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fesolangs.org%2Fwiki%2FNumberwang
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23:53:46 <oerjan> the worst thing is, i'm entirely sober
23:53:59 <nooga> I completely understood the english version
23:54:09 <nooga> but it's unbelievably stupid
23:54:40 <nooga> I know that hi-voltage alcohol is almost unavailable in Norway
23:55:05 <oerjan> it's ok i had aquavit on christmas eve
23:56:31 <oerjan> also i'm not complaining about not having alcohol.
23:56:47 <nooga> because you're boring Norwegian
23:56:51 <oerjan> i just realized i was behaving as if i was drunk above
23:57:33 <nooga> i'll tell you a story
23:57:50 <oerjan> also i am fully assuming you are drunk. you're polish after all.
23:58:11 <nooga> I'm not drunk constantly, mind You
23:58:28 <nooga> and pilish is for nails
23:58:42 <nooga> Polish is the word