00:00:08 <Arc_Koen> but now it seems to be either an infinite loop or very slow
00:00:28 <Arc_Koen> so I was wondering if you had any smaller, more simple programs to test
00:00:50 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: No, I don't have some, sorry
00:01:35 <Arc_Koen> in that case the fight between the part of me that wants to complete this and the part of me that's bored and not motivated will be even harder
00:02:36 <quintopia> i feel like cat theory is not just an abbreviation of category theory
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00:12:22 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: OK, I just wrote a Truth-machine and it works properly
00:12:51 <coppro> haha http://dumbpajamas.tumblr.com/post/35998874236/its-not-an-allegation-anymore
00:12:52 <zzo38> Arc_Koen: Maybe my program is wrong then; if that is the case, you can fix it.
00:13:25 <Arc_Koen> I will compare what instructions you use in your program that I don't use in the truth-machine
00:14:09 <Arc_Koen> and if I can't see where my interpreter is wrong then I'll try to understand your program to see if it's wrong
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00:29:05 <kmc> coppro: that's a good show
00:34:33 <Arc_Koen> zzo38: haha. in fact it works fine. that's just, once again, a problem of flushing output...
00:34:46 <Arc_Koen> 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233 377 610 987 1597 2584 4181 6765 10946 17711 28657 46368 75025 121393 196418 317811 514229 832040 1346269 ^C
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00:37:12 <Arc_Koen> I'll write a parser someday (I really got to find some way to do that in a more automated fashion) and then we can move Suxesol to the Implemented category!
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00:54:22 <FreeFull> Challenge: Write a fibonacci number generator that uses iterate
00:54:53 <monqy> const fibo iterate
00:56:28 <oerjan> Arc_Koen: back when i looked at ocaml, there were ocamllex and ocamlyacc
00:56:39 <Bike> you could just have a be a pair and the function be from (a,b) to (b,a+b).
00:57:41 <Arc_Koen> yes, I should take a look at those
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00:59:10 <Arc_Koen> it's just that so many esolangs have one-char instructions, or otherwise easily parsed instructions, that I took the habit to patch up dirty "parsers" of my own rather than bothering to look at them properly
00:59:21 <Arc_Koen> there's also a module from the standard library that's all about parsing and stuff
00:59:50 <Jafet> > iterate (round . ((1+sqrt 5)/2*) . fromIntegral) 1
00:59:52 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,177...
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01:06:45 <Bike> > iterate (\[a,b] -> [b,a+b]) [0,1]
01:06:46 <lambdabot> [[0,1],[1,1],[1,2],[2,3],[3,5],[5,8],[8,13],[13,21],[21,34],[34,55],[55,89]...
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01:10:16 <kmc> yeah it is strange that more esolangs don't have full featured grammar
01:10:29 <kmc> i guess it follows from the fact that most of them are brainfuck derivatives ;P
01:12:10 <Jafet> It just occurred to me that brainfuck is "context-free"
01:12:18 <Jafet> (in more than one way)
01:12:42 <Phantom_Hoover> most of them are brainfuck derivatives and the foundation of the current state of esolangs is brainfuck, befunge and false
01:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> so everyone picks up the attitude that esolangs all have single-character commands instead of syntax
01:14:02 <Jafet> BF ::= + | - | , | . | < | > | [ BF ]
01:15:22 <Bike> the clear course of action is to start a new trend in languages that can only be parsed with unrestricted grammars
01:15:29 * oerjan swats Jafet for making an ambiguous grammar -----###
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01:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't know grammar, what's an example of a non-context-free one
01:16:28 <FireFly> the grammar describing the language { a^n b^n c^n | n >= 1 }
01:16:41 <FireFly> i.e. { "abc", "aabbcc", "aaabbbccc", ... }
01:16:44 <Arc_Koen> does ambiguous here means that you can't distinguish (BF BF) BF from BF (BF BF)?
01:16:53 <Jafet> Bike: that's called "mainstream languages"
01:17:30 <Jafet> oerjan: brainfuck is associative yo
01:17:37 <kmc> i guess it's just wadler's law again
01:17:39 <Bike> i'm pretty sure you only need a cfg for java...
01:17:48 <Jafet> Pierce through the lies, see the higher algebraic structure
01:17:57 <kmc> people are hung up on concrete syntax so they think the way to make a "brain fucking" language is to have bad syntax rather than strange semantics
01:18:06 <FireFly> Isn't C++ context-sensitive?
01:18:20 <Bike> c++ is ambiguous, as I recall, with the lexer hack and everything
01:18:25 <Bike> I was actually thinking of Perl.
01:19:01 <kmc> parsing perl is undecidable
01:19:05 <Jafet> Well, no one is arguing about comment syntax for brainfuck derivatives yet
01:19:12 <kmc> Jafet: don't be too sure
01:19:42 <kmc> since all non-command characters are comments, i think all derivatives are arguments about comment syntax
01:20:40 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: C is context sensitive.
01:21:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i wish i lived in a world where wikipedia articles were didactically useful :(
01:23:07 <lambdabot> shapr says: I've tried to teach people autodidactism, but I've realized they have to learn it for themselves.
01:24:43 <monqy> sometimes jafet talks, I'm an eye witness
01:25:34 <shachaf> kmc: Was that added in response to your post?
01:30:10 <oerjan> S ::= a B S c ; B a ::= a B ; B S ::= b S | b or something like that
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01:35:08 <oerjan> anyway an unrestricted grammar is basically a thue program without IO.
01:35:43 <oerjan> oh hm and a distinction of terminals and non-terminals.
01:37:01 <kmc> i don't know
01:39:21 <Arc_Koen> oerjan: that would allow cycles
01:47:29 <oerjan> no cycles with the distinction between terminals and non-terminals.
01:48:33 <oerjan> or well, with there having to be a final result.
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03:04:30 <Sgeo> monqy, [S][S][S]
03:17:31 <kmc> delicious lead
03:17:42 <Fiora> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdoqrbCird1qj67q9o1_500.gif
03:18:06 <shachaf> monqy: i bet you want to fix `taking'
03:18:22 <lambdabot> Applicative f => Int -> SimpleLensLike (Control.Lens.Internal.Indexing f) s a -> SimpleLensLike f s a
03:18:42 <shachaf> > [1..]^..taking 3 traverse
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03:23:23 <kmc> wall candy
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06:55:05 <kmc> sounds like YOU need some Liquid Programr
06:55:37 <shachaf> kmc: Was that the response to your email?
06:56:21 <shachaf> kmc: I bet you want to figure out this taking business. :-(
06:56:32 <kmc> no a nonsequitor
06:56:35 <kmc> taking what?
07:03:13 <ion> shachaf: hachaf
07:03:22 <shachaf> ion: Oh, just in time to figure out `taking'
07:03:52 <shachaf> Oops, did I turn into `ski' ?
07:04:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yes': not found
07:09:58 <shachaf> ion: This is like BazaarExercise++
07:10:28 <monqy> @karma bazaarexercise
07:11:02 <monqy> does bazaarexercise really deserve that 1 karma ?
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07:11:22 <shachaf> monqy: that karma was for bazaarexercise's capitalized brother
07:11:31 <shachaf> not sure how bazaarexercise got it
07:11:41 <monqy> @karma BAZAAREXERCISE
07:11:57 <shachaf> karma inflation: confirmed?
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07:34:04 <ion> shachaf: What’s wrong with taking?
07:34:36 <shachaf> ion: Laziness and/or the type.
07:34:51 <shachaf> > [1..] ^.. taking 5 traverse
07:35:03 <shachaf> An easy way to fix this would be to use unsafePartsOf
07:35:16 <shachaf> But then it only works for Traversals
07:35:20 <shachaf> We want it to work for Folds.
07:35:23 <ion> taking seems to use unsafePartsOf.
07:35:36 <shachaf> Are you looking at the git repository?
07:35:53 <shachaf> Previously it was written like dropping
07:36:34 <shachaf> So for that version, it's reasonably lazy, but the problem is the type.
07:38:52 <shachaf> Well, the problem is the implementation, not just the type.
07:38:58 <shachaf> But the former reflects the latter. :-)
07:39:00 <shachaf> But the former reflects the latter. :-)
07:39:07 <monqy> does the former reflect the latter
07:39:53 <shachaf> how could you make such an elementary mistake
07:40:10 <monqy> elementary mistake of asking a question
07:40:19 <monqy> "the most elementary of them all"
07:40:49 <shachaf> watson asked too many questions
07:40:57 <Bike> I feel like lurking here is going to slowly destroy my understanding of the use-mention distinction, and indeed what quotes are for at all
07:41:59 <shachaf> "surprise: you just unlurked yourself"
07:42:35 <Bike> i was "lurking", now I am "screaming" in "terror"
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07:43:06 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:43:24 <shachaf> "Bike's worst nightmare?" i "think so"
07:44:34 <lambdabot> "\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"\"...
07:44:57 <monqy> > text (repeat '"')
07:45:01 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
07:45:27 <shachaf> > text$replicate (a_billion) '"'
07:45:30 <lambdabot> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""...
07:45:55 <lambdabot> "\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:46:04 <Bike> You mean minimal...?
07:46:12 <ion> Warning: Use camelCase
07:46:15 <Bike> So... I'm not here?
07:46:17 <lambdabot> "\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:46:26 <shachaf> Bike: maximal "ESCAPE SEUQ#NECE"
07:46:40 <Bike> oh man, my parents warned me about escape seq neces
07:46:51 <Bike> *seuq neces, apologies
07:47:44 <fizzie> You people are so "conf"using.
07:48:18 <shachaf> fizzie: "you know who else was confusing"
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09:51:47 <ion> http://japanesetransliteration.com/
10:04:34 <ion> http://labs.echonest.com/Uploader/index.html
10:06:45 <ion> It has a bit of trouble with 5/4. :-) http://labs.echonest.com/Uploader/index.html?trid=TRIOCHX13AFD0DF411
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10:10:09 <fizzie> Huh, I no longer have any sound out of this workstation.
10:11:26 <fizzie> Gnome's sound thing shows the right devices in the "Hardware" tab, but the "Output" tab only has a "Dummy output" in the "Choose a device for sound output" list.
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10:26:01 <ion> This one doesn’t quite work either :-P Animals as Leaders – CAFO http://labs.echonest.com/Uploader/index.html?trid=TREOUDY13B182DDC60
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13:40:57 <ion> Fire Tornado http://youtu.be/OL_VUh4gzIk?hd=1&t=1m55s
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13:57:26 <ais523_> hi, my laptop with a dodgy connection
14:01:25 <ion> hi, my fridge with some food inside
14:01:54 <ais523_> I mean, ais523 just joined :)
14:02:23 <ais523_> ais523 refers to my laptop in particular
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15:51:40 <atriq> People assume that time is a strict progression from cause to effect
15:51:51 <atriq> But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint
15:52:04 <atriq> It's more like a bit ball of wibbly wobbly time-wimey stuff
15:52:07 <atriq> Dammit, Phantom_Hoover
15:52:15 <atriq> I'm permanently in a mood for Homestuck music now
15:53:25 <atriq> First track of AlterniaBound
15:54:07 <atriq> Did you see today's update, btw?
15:56:11 <coppro> I love the extra few bullets at the end
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16:00:48 <atriq> Did anyone else get one of the thousand giveaway 0x10c accounts?
16:01:26 -!- segorev has joined.
16:01:53 <atriq> It's meant to be 0x10^c
16:02:30 <atriq> Accounts for the future Mojang game 0x10^c
16:02:32 <ais523_> umm, this could be a bit difficult to do in my head
16:02:59 <atriq> Which is set 0x10^c years after 1987
16:03:23 <atriq> Due to an endiness error on a cryogenesis machine
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16:42:04 <atriq> Phantom_Hoover, the blood spouting from Gamzee's current wounds is a different colour to the blood from when Nepeta scratched his face
16:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> at least two dorfs have run directly over a dead carpenter's corpse without remarking upon it at all
16:44:16 <atriq> Maybe they didn't recognize him
16:44:27 <atriq> "Hey, there's a dead dorf here. Is that Urist!?"
16:44:36 <atriq> "Urist had more blood"
16:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> the especially annoying part is that as a result of this i can't actually convict anyone for it
16:45:41 <fizzie> "Urist's blood was a different color."
16:46:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I still have no idea who the vampire actually /is/, unfortunately.
16:47:24 <atriq> Who doesn't have a bedroom
16:48:35 <atriq> Put him in a locked strand extracting room
16:48:51 <atriq> With a hole in the ceiling for dumping raw adamantine
16:49:03 <atriq> And a hole in the floor for dumping the extracted strands
16:49:53 <ais523_> wouldn't she get annoyed, or starve to death, or something?
16:49:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll probably go for an airlock system for the strands though.
16:50:32 <elliott> they try to kill people I think?
16:50:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
16:50:39 <atriq> For shit and giggles, evidently
16:50:52 <Phantom_Hoover> She can't improve her skills but strand extraction takes ages to train anyway.
16:51:29 <Phantom_Hoover> She works really slowly due to an outstanding bug with alcohol dependence but again, strand extraction normally takes so long it'll still be an improvement.
16:51:34 <ais523_> does DF have any equivalent of a conveyor belt?
16:51:49 <ais523_> and what are strands anyway?
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16:52:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Adamantine is the top-tier metal in DF, and you refine the raw deposits into strands and then into wafers.
16:53:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Raw adamantine → strands takes an incredibly long time.
16:53:17 <ais523_> and then make things with the wafers?
16:53:27 <ais523_> also, doesn't mining too much adamantine release demons?
16:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Fortunately you can avoid that if you avoid mining the walls of the spires.
16:54:36 <elliott> ais523_: well there is hell
16:54:41 <elliott> but you just have to tip-toe around it
16:54:56 <ais523_> ah, you can mine in a pattern that just avoids hell
16:54:59 <ais523_> and, umm, ends up beneath it?
16:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> The bit leading to hell is a small shaft in the middle of fixed size, so you can infer where it is.
16:55:33 <Phantom_Hoover> No, hell is underneath a layer of impenetrable rock at the bottom of the map.
16:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The adamantine deposits are narrow spires rising out of that, through a sea of magma, and a variable distance into the rock above.
16:57:24 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: apparently you can enter hell using a demonic fortress in adventure mode.
16:58:49 <atriq> Couldn't you make one in fortress mode, then abandon it?
16:59:06 <atriq> elliott, did you hear about PalaceCrushed?
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17:03:26 <elliott> atriq: i suddenly have encyclopedic knowledge of it
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17:10:07 <ais523_> elliott: do you have an encyclopedia about it hadny?
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17:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_ is the only named dorf to get injured, fortunately.
17:28:09 <ais523_> why name a dwarf after the underscored version?
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19:06:48 <kmc> perhaps some day in the far future, computer science will invent a way to build parsers other than hand coded control flow around regular expressions
19:07:20 <atriq> computer science is a pretty cool guy
19:07:26 <atriq> Inventing stuff in the far future
19:08:40 <oklofok> you mean like context-free grammars and shit?
19:09:02 <oklofok> let's hope they get invented.
19:09:26 <kmc> this is my sarcastic way of saying "perhaps in the far future programmers will generally be aware of useful CS shit that has existed for decades"
19:10:40 <oklofok> parsing context-free grammars and their various extensions is like one of the most researched things in cs conferences. it's such an oversolved problem that people start snoring when there's a talk about that stuff.
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19:11:55 <oklofok> (not that i _know_ anything about it)
19:12:51 <atriq> Man, I can't wait to enter this world properly
19:13:09 <olsner> this world? you're already in it
19:13:12 <kmc> screaming, naked, and covered in blood?
19:13:13 <atriq> The mysterious world of computer science
19:13:45 <oklofok> i hear google tried to use context-free stuff for their translator. but turned out regexps worked way better for automation with such a supermassive data set.
19:13:50 <atriq> kmc, if I remember, I am going to one day turn up at a computer science conference for a talk that I am presenting, screaming, naked, and covered in blood.
19:14:13 <atriq> Just because I missed that joke until after I wrote that
19:14:22 <oklofok> a computer scientist told me about this in shame.
19:15:30 <kmc> yeah, that makes sense
19:15:36 <kmc> natural language is messy too
19:16:19 <olsner> that a CFG is not sufficient and/or good for parsing human languages might not be news for people who know stuff about that stuff
19:17:02 <olsner> news in general might not be news for people who know stuff about the stuff that the news is supposedly news about
19:17:27 <oklofok> it makes sense, but it's a bit sad because "the right solution" (from cs point of view) should be the best one _especially_ for such a large-scale thing.
19:18:23 <oklofok> luckily i don't have to think about these kinds of things, CA aren't useful for anything anyway.
19:19:43 <oklofok> olsner: it's much nicer to make a CFG for a subset of english than make a regexp for a subset of english though.
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19:39:45 <atriq> Destroy your desk it's useless now
19:40:07 <atriq> Build yourself a fort to hide
19:40:15 <atriq> Close your eyes and crawl inside
19:40:22 <atriq> You're sailing on the pumpkin tide
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19:44:43 <atriq> I need to either stop posting lyrics or find a Homestuck channel that isn't filled with RP'ers
19:47:41 <Fiora> I think esper has a big homestuck channel that doesn't allow RP/typing quirks
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19:49:24 <atriq> Fiora, none on mindfang?
19:50:06 <Fiora> I don't know anything about mindfang, didn't even know it existed until now
19:51:03 <Fiora> 19:50 [esper] -!- Topic for #pesterchum: Welcome gerbils! \\ http://mspa.vulp.in/pesterchum/ has rules and stuff \\ If you want to RP or use troll typing quirks, do it in another channel, not here. \\ Unable to talk? Try using http://esper.net/publicirc.php \\ the friendship sets sail at dawn \\ http://imgur.com/a/mwcBW
19:51:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: E_TOPTOOOLD | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:51:18 <oklofok> what are troll typing quirks?
19:51:34 <Fiora> :33 < this appurrs to be the purrfect place for your n33ds
19:51:50 <Fiora> http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/Typing_Quirk
19:52:14 <atriq> Fiora, mindfang is the server that the Pesterchum client uses internally
19:52:30 <Fiora> T3R3Z1 T4LKS L1K3 TH1S and so forth
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19:52:43 <Bike> is E_TOPTOOOLD ever an actual irc error
19:54:46 <oerjan> <Bike> I feel like lurking here is going to slowly destroy my understanding of the use-mention distinction, and indeed what quotes are for at all
19:55:01 <oerjan> just do some /// programming and you'll get it right back
19:55:57 <oerjan> Fiora: well we all hate Lolcode here, that's similar
19:57:12 <oerjan> elliott: my promise to fix the /// links back doesn't apply until they actually start working, btw, hth.
19:58:06 <oerjan> yeah, i know it's a tall order
19:59:31 <Bike> "Itflabtijtslwi – /// with input" why is everything unpronouncable
19:59:53 <monqy> it gives a pronunciation
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20:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> mysteries of dwarf fortress: i have six chains, but i'm only allowed to use two of them for some reason
20:25:50 <olsner> use more than two and you'll start a chain reaction
20:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> hmm, my jail cells definitely aren't designed for criticality safety
20:37:54 <oerjan> Bike: I DON'T SEE WHAT'S UNPRONOUNCABLE ABOUT ITFLABTIJTSLWI
20:38:37 <oerjan> i do the IJ as in DIJKSTRA, btw
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20:39:46 <Arc_Koen> I do the ij from Dijsktra as in Itflabtijtslwi, so I wouldn't know
20:39:56 <Arc_Koen> is that some kind of dutch weirdness?
20:40:48 <olsner> it's just a two-letter "y" look-alike - as in i and j put next to each other looks like a y
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20:41:08 <oerjan> <monqy> > text (repeat '"')
20:41:28 <lambdabot> """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""...
20:41:34 <monqy> lambdabot......................
20:42:09 <Arc_Koen> olsner: do you pronounce "cp" as φ?
20:42:24 <olsner> Arc_Koen: no, I'm not Dutch
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20:44:06 <Arc_Koen> that's ok, it's a greek letter
20:44:17 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/temporary%20shit/itflabtijtslwi.wma ?
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20:45:32 <olsner> the one part I find somewhat difficult is the -lwi at the end
20:46:02 <oklopol> dunno, i thought tslw was a pretty natural cluster
20:50:34 <oerjan> ...and that's from a finn.
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21:08:32 <oklopol> hey we even have str in some loan words.
21:09:03 <olsner> str is easier than tslw
21:09:38 <oklopol> it was a joke based on the guess that it's universally considered the easiest three consonant cluster on earth.
21:12:12 <atriq> It occurs to me that I have no idea where I saved my unfinished Haskell port of MCMap
21:12:52 <elliott> wait where do we have tchst
21:13:07 <atriq> This is something else, obviously
21:13:12 <atriq> And in "matchstick"
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21:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> shattered illusion of the week: ian stewart's lectures aren't great
21:17:37 <Phantom_Hoover> revelation of the week: mathematicians make terrible caterers
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21:18:48 <monqy> good revelation? maybe it will save your catering party, one day
21:28:43 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: http://retroprogramming.com).
21:39:57 <oerjan> well _i_ for one wouldn't trust me to do catering.
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21:54:35 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe this is the price for having dorfs constantly tramping halfway across the map? who knows
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22:06:19 <atriq> Aaah there are too many SYNTAX AND KEYWORDS
22:06:30 <atriq> What does ~(foo) mean in C?
22:07:09 <Bike> ~ is bitwise not
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22:17:14 <atriq> This would be so much easier if I knew any C
22:17:37 <Bike> what are you trying to do?
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22:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a forgotten beast moving towards the entrance to my fortress
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22:31:19 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Say goodbye to your little friends.
22:34:22 <Phantom_Hoover> at least so far it's only set fire to one of the crappy armourers!
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22:35:57 <kmc> it turns out the reason code highlighting was broken in our app is that it was trying to highlight everything as matlab
22:36:00 <kmc> fucking matlab
22:37:21 <shachaf> Was it Objective C or something?
22:38:03 <kmc> it's just that the pygments "guess_lexer" function seems to always guess matlab
22:38:13 <kmc> in particular if the code block is actually just english text
22:38:35 <shachaf> vim highlights .m files as Matlab
22:38:41 <kmc> (by "broken" i mean that it would highlight things that weren't meant to be highlighted)
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22:49:52 <Phantom_Hoover> you just kind of stood around on the stairs, then went back home and left a single lasher to deal with the beast
22:50:54 <Phantom_Hoover> he basically whipped it apart piece by piece whilst on fire
22:52:18 <shachaf> yes, but not anyone *in particular*
22:52:54 <Gregor> Well, if they're all dead now, then you can sort of start over, no? X-D
22:53:06 <shachaf> can i be the norwegian ambassador
22:54:29 <Sgeo> Can you rename dead dorfs? shachaf could be the dead nobody
22:55:34 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, uh, pick any of http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Skill
22:55:57 <Gregor> What's the least helpful skill?
22:56:00 <Gregor> Can he be the latrine cleaner?
22:56:33 <shachaf> Hmm, that looks like a song.
22:56:51 <shachaf> should be set to the tune of "modern major general"
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23:04:21 <shachaf> can i be the norwegian ambassador
23:05:02 <shachaf> what ambassador can i be?????
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23:05:50 <kmc> Python threads suck, therefore concurrency is a bad concept. MySQL sucks, therefore relational databases are fundamentally wrong. Java sucks, therefore static type systems are worthless.
23:05:51 <Gregor> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
23:05:56 <HackEgo> 866) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway
23:07:43 <shachaf> kmc: I think most people who complain about concurrency complain about how hard it is to reason about.
23:07:53 <shachaf> Python concurrency is, if I remember correctly, unusually easy to reason about. :-)
23:08:16 <elliott> kmc: depending on what you mean by concurrency i'd agree with the firts
23:08:18 <kmc> but whenever somebody suggests improving python threading, the response is always like "you shouldn't ever use threads for anything anyway"
23:08:40 <kmc> right now i have a very specific need which would be easily solved by a competent threading implementation
23:11:39 <kmc> holy balls http://stackoverflow.com/questions/323972/is-there-any-way-to-kill-a-thread-in-python
23:11:45 <kmc> calling the CPython API from ctypes LIKE A BOSS
23:11:54 <kmc> shachaf: need to call a function with a time limit
23:12:03 <kmc> can't use SIGALRM because it interferes with python's shitty threading
23:12:07 <kmc> which django is already forcing me to use
23:12:22 <elliott> isn't this what that multiprocessing thing is for
23:12:41 <kmc> i think that library is also steaming dog shit
23:12:43 <kmc> but it might work
23:12:48 <shachaf> kmc: People in #haskell are talking about how to preserve its "niceness culture". You should post that post you wrote about it.
23:14:02 <Sgeo> kmc, ... oh, I don't actually need to do your use case, thought I did but I don't
23:14:27 <kmc> doubt it will play nicely with django
23:14:35 <kmc> "Functionality within this package requires that the __main__ module be importable by the children."
23:14:47 <Sgeo> kmc, I'm sort of abusing Python threading to work around a blocking API, although there's nonblocking versions but those require Tornado or Twisted
23:16:05 <kmc> hm no fuck this module
23:16:15 <kmc> i will just os.fork() and send the result back over a pipe and /fuck it/
23:16:23 <elliott> you can kill python threads you know
23:16:33 <elliott> like killing threads in almost all languages
23:16:56 <kmc> there isn't a public or reliable API for doing it either
23:17:44 <elliott> that applies to most languages though
23:17:58 <kmc> maybe the reliable part
23:18:02 <elliott> for instance you can't reliably kill a pthread
23:18:14 <kmc> GHC Haskell does have asynchronous exceptions and at least some thought put into making them safe
23:18:18 <kmc> i realize it's not perfect
23:18:25 <elliott> AFAIK GHC is the only runtime that offers thread-killing that you are actually allowed to use
23:18:41 <elliott> "See this thread by Sun on why they deprecated Thread.stop(). It goes into detail about why this was a bad method and what should be done to safely stop threads in general.
23:18:46 <elliott> "The way they recomend is to use a shared variable as a flag which asks the background thread to stop. This variable can then be set by a different object requesting the thread terminate."
23:18:58 <kmc> is calling function with a timeout really that unreasonable of a goal?
23:19:01 <elliott> the problem is that killing a thread is roughly a fundamentally unsafe operation
23:19:10 <kmc> yes i believed you the first 8 times you told me so
23:19:10 <elliott> especially, it more or less makes sure you cannot have any sort of guarantees
23:19:20 <elliott> kmc: that was the first time I said that
23:19:25 <elliott> maybe you misinterpreted other things I said as meaning that
23:19:35 <elliott> kmc: anyway calling a pure function with a timeout is reasonable
23:19:45 <elliott> what if it changes state? what if it acquires a lock?
23:19:49 <kmc> the thing i want is conceptually a pure function, although who knows what it uses internally
23:19:52 <elliott> what if it does blocking IO?
23:19:55 <kmc> answer: a bunch of poorly written regex parsing
23:19:58 <elliott> GHC gets away with the last one by never doing blocking IO
23:20:00 <kmc> it could go wrong
23:20:05 <kmc> but i think i could get away with it in this case
23:20:19 <elliott> so you are doing something unsafe in general
23:20:23 <elliott> but which works for your usecase
23:20:28 <elliott> that sounds like a good use of a non-public API :P
23:20:34 <kmc> there are degrees
23:20:58 <kmc> unsafe things should still be public and documented when possible
23:21:00 <kmc> harm reduction, man
23:21:08 <elliott> I think the thread-killing stuff is actually documented? not sure
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23:21:22 <kmc> well it may be documented as part of the CPython "API"
23:21:28 <kmc> aka "the parts of the interpreter we decided to not make static"
23:21:39 <elliott> anyway it is not like it is the only thing about threads which are unsafe and break guarantees
23:21:54 <elliott> I think concurrent imperative programs are basically a dead end, I don't see any way to make them feasible to reason about at all
23:22:25 <kmc> i disagree, i think with good tools for managing the diffusion of shared state, it can work
23:22:28 <kmc> but anyway
23:22:30 <kmc> i don't even want shared state
23:22:33 <kmc> just a timeout on a pure function
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23:23:09 <elliott> well I think modern non-concurrent imperative programs are basically impossible to reason about too
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