00:20:43 <FreeFull> Bike: You can use > for half an x
00:22:05 <Bike> nah, obviously it would be better to have rationals, as pairs of x's.  or hell, throw in dedekind cuts
00:24:41 <FreeFull> Surreals?
00:25:04 <Bike> even better!
00:26:42 <FreeFull> Hell, we can do even better than that
00:26:44 <FreeFull> Surcomplex numbers
00:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> you mean surreal x surreal
00:27:23 <Bike> is that even a thing?
00:27:33 <FreeFull> Yes
00:27:34 <Bike> oh, so it is
00:28:26 <Bike> ou can keep going to quasurnions and so on, then... probablly rather pointless
00:34:39 <kmc> so does news.bbc.co.uk serve a different page to American IPs, or is it actually the case that British news is mostly about America?
00:36:09 <Bike> none of the headlines below the petraeus thing seem american from here...
00:37:19 <Phantom_Hoover> there's the admiral thing, but that's it
00:37:29 <kmc> some of the stuff down the page as well
00:37:35 <kmc> i guess i have this impression because the election just happened
00:37:52 <Bike> it even has a Sandy headline... relating to Haiti!
00:38:23 <kmc> the petraeus thing is getting pretty weird
00:38:24 <kmc> "The White House backs Gen John Allen after reports he "flirted" with a woman who was harassed by the lover of CIA Director David Petraeus."
00:39:11 <Bike> john allen revealed be estranged clone of petraeus's uncle
00:39:27 <kmc> haha
00:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> tim allen declines to comment
00:40:58 <elliott> <kmc> so does news.bbc.co.uk serve a different page to American IPs, or is it actually the case that British news is mostly about America?
00:41:00 <elliott> what page are you getting
00:41:06 <elliott> (it is almost certainly the latter)
00:41:14 <elliott> (news everywhere is mostly about america)
00:42:04 <kmc> yay we're #1
00:42:21 <kmc> #1 in sex scandals, dubious wars, and confusing elections
00:43:21 <Phantom_Hoover> america is actually just a channel 4 reality show
00:43:23 <Bike> apparently the petraeus thing has security breaches involved, which would be a nice change from sex scandals (so probably won't happen)
00:43:26 <Phantom_Hoover> in exceptionally poor taste
00:43:43 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like if taneb had a scandal
00:48:19 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Quit: hagb4rd).
00:59:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:01:37 <elliott> kmc: a | (b << 1) packs two bits together right
01:01:58 <elliott> actually never mind
01:02:30 <elliott> i am so rusty with bitwise stuff
01:03:05 <elliott> kmc: okay I have a new question
01:03:24 <elliott> if I read a byte a, and then a byte b
01:03:35 <elliott> and I do (a << 8) | (b & 0x00FF)
01:03:40 <elliott> never mind
01:03:41 <elliott> it's obvious
01:03:52 <elliott> I am dumb
01:06:38 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
01:10:57 <hagb4rd> into dust into head
01:11:08 <hagb4rd> into wisdom into bed
01:12:38 <hagb4rd> --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYDlBVWja50
01:14:16 <elliott> hi
01:14:49 <hagb4rd> hi elliottdroog
01:14:53 <elliott> elliottdroog
01:20:12 -!- monqy has joined.
01:37:04 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:43:07 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
01:48:06 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:58:07 <kmc> BUTTON, BUTTON; MAGIC MUSIC; THE KNIGHT OF THE WHISTLE; MY
01:58:59 -!- ais523 has quit.
02:04:19 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
02:30:48 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:31:14 -!- augur has joined.
02:31:40 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
02:32:06 -!- olsner has joined.
02:42:19 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:49:32 -!- augur has changed nick to arabcoffee.
02:50:01 -!- arabcoffee has changed nick to augur.
02:57:44 <zzo38> Is there any Csound plugin to play Impulse Tracker instruments?
02:59:41 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:00:01 <Sgeo__> I hate the GIL I hate the GIL I hate the GIL
03:22:06 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
03:22:46 -!- elliott has joined.
03:22:59 -!- monqy has joined.
03:33:24 <Sgeo__> It might not be the GIL's fault apparently
03:33:28 * Sgeo__ tears out more hair
03:35:17 <monqy> hi
03:43:44 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
03:47:42 -!- segorev has joined.
03:49:30 <Sgeo__> My mind is going I can feel it
03:52:37 <monqy> oh?
04:01:55 <kmc> look at you hacker
04:02:00 <kmc> a pathetic creature of meat and bone
04:02:07 <kmc> panting and sweating as you run through my corridors
04:02:23 <kmc> how can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?
04:02:55 <Bike> little does shodan realize that parts of her network interface were written in php
04:04:07 <kmc> :3
04:04:28 <Sgeo__> kmc, if you're referencing the game I think you're referencing, I've played it
04:05:13 <Sgeo__> monqy, elliott update
04:06:14 <kmc> monqypatching
04:07:01 <monqy> hi
04:07:20 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
04:19:16 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
04:30:58 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:04:53 <tswett> How do we know that there's only one standard model of the natural numbers, anyway...
05:06:01 <tswett> I guess it's been proven, in ZFC or something, that there is only one computable model, and that this model is also the only well-ordered model.
05:08:07 <monqy> hi
05:08:13 <tswett> Hi.
05:12:37 <tswett> I've seen it argued that there are, in fact, multiple standard models of the natural numbers.  The two most prominent are the positional numeral system, and unary.
05:14:08 <tswett> The argument says that we have no particular reason to think that these two systems are isomorphic.
05:14:34 <shachaf> monqy: do you like lenses
05:14:46 <zzo38> Should it depend on if you extend them to infinite?
05:14:46 <tswett> Since the number 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 can be written in the positional system, but not in unary.
05:14:47 <monqy> shachaf: are you trying to get me to do a thing? I won't do it
05:15:36 <shachaf> monqy: "do i" have "a reputation"
05:15:56 <tswett> Which... I guess is true for concrete, physical tally marks, but not for abstract theoretical ones.
05:15:56 <monqy> wrt lens, trying to get people to do a thing
05:16:30 <elliott> tswett: so how are you applying this to a new esolang
05:16:34 <zzo38> tswett: Same I was thinking of too.
05:17:15 <zzo38> And I think since you have to use abstract theoretical ones in mathematics, even though you cannot actually write it, you can use a different representation for convenience.
05:17:30 <tswett> elliott: I call it Fuckfuck.  It's just like Brainfuck, except you're limited to 28,000 cells.
05:17:45 <monqy> "fuckfuck" is already taken
05:17:59 <shachaf> is "hi" taken
05:17:59 <tswett> Okay, I'll call it Fuckball.
05:18:14 <shachaf> the new esolang from monqy
05:19:10 <monqy> no
05:23:19 <tswett> So, an esolang based on the ultrafinitistic idea that there is no bijection between positional numerals and unary numerals.
05:24:10 <monqy> sure
05:24:46 <tswett> Presumably, the esolang should be incapable of taking a positional numeral and producing the corresponding unary numeral.
05:25:58 <monqy> does it do anything else ?
05:26:12 <tswett> It does something other than being incapable of that, yes.
05:27:14 <tswett> How is this usually done?  The obvious way to do it is via recursion.  To unarize a long numeral, start by unarizing all but the last digit, n times.
05:28:04 <tswett> So we should prohibit that kind of recursion.
05:29:01 <Bike> you could just add.  int i,tot=0;for(i=0;i<n;++i)write('1');
05:29:17 <tswett> How do you do it using iteration instead?  The obvious way to do that is to just repeatedly decrement the numeral and write out "1" each time.
05:30:05 <tswett> Okay, so we just have to make it impossible to repeatedly decrement numerals like that.
05:31:16 <tswett> And the obvious way to do *that* is to make it a stack-based automaton.  Right?
05:32:33 <Bike> could you just not have inbuilt positional numerals, forcing church encoding or something more unary-y?
05:33:00 <tswett> Lambda calculus doesn't have to use Church encoding; it can use the positional system.
05:33:41 <tswett> So, we want to make it a stack-based automaton.  And that makes me think, stack-based automata are those which can recognize context-free grammars.
05:33:54 <tswett> So, this esolang shall be a syntax for expressing context-free grammars.
05:35:42 <tswett> Which is easy, right?  Just take regular expressions and add things that mean "push this" and "pop this".
05:36:13 <tswett> In the interest of inconsistency, the "push this" symbol should be "\p" and the "pop this" symbol should be "-".
05:43:51 -!- segorev has joined.
06:14:41 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
06:17:54 <kmc> i think if i ever finish that window manager it will have to be named windowlicker
06:18:12 <Sgeo__> This one person in #jesus who has ... issues is now having worse issues
06:18:20 <Sgeo__> "yEO nAAd tE sObmUt tE GEd SGEO__"
06:18:27 <Sgeo__> He's doing some sort of letter replacement thing
06:19:12 <shachaf> kmc: Do it!
06:19:22 <Bike> Sgeo__: is this person giygas
06:19:24 * shachaf is sorely lacking a good window manager right now.
06:19:46 -!- segorev has joined.
06:19:56 <Sgeo__> Don't know who giygas is
06:22:10 <Bike> kmc: you could call the inevitable flamewarry forks Windowsill and Polygon Window, even
06:22:37 <elliott> kmc: would this wm be better than xmonad
06:23:14 <kmc> elliott: ofc
06:23:25 <kmc> it will be better because it will be written in haskell
06:23:26 <kmc> o wait
06:26:23 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
06:30:16 <kmc> #jesus: officially sponsored by the catholic church
06:30:20 <kmc> otherwise it would have to be ##jesus
06:31:03 <shachaf> Can't it be sponsored by some other church?
06:31:15 <shachaf> Or by other people.
06:35:06 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
06:35:16 <kmc> i think protestants would not generally have someone willing to speak on behalf of jesus to certify an IRC channel
06:37:02 <Sgeo__> Is #esoteric officially sponsored by the Official Committee of Esoteric Languages?
06:37:39 <shachaf> Well, I think the person who runs esolangs.org is in here sometimes.
06:37:45 <Sgeo__> Both #esoteric and #jesus were founded 2003.
06:37:51 <Bike> it's officially sponsored by Eso Teric, blind god of the tarpit, I thought
06:39:30 <elliott> <shachaf> Well, I think the person who runs esolangs.org is in here sometimes.
06:39:31 <fizzie> I thought it was the "ESOtropic TERriers International Conglomeration", often abbreviated ESOTERIC, from which the claim for a primary channel came from? 
06:39:31 <elliott> i am never in here
06:39:58 <shachaf> fizzie: kick elliott
06:40:14 <fizzie> I can't kick him, he's not in here.
06:40:36 <shachaf> Curses!
06:40:45 <Sgeo__> Ncurses!
06:41:48 <monqy> hi
06:41:50 <shachaf> Drat and double drat!
06:42:17 <fizzie> Double-precision rational.
06:42:39 <shachaf> double-double precision rational
06:42:56 <fizzie> struct drat { double num, den; }; /* best number format */
06:42:58 <Bike> a ratio of double floats could be innovative
06:45:04 <fizzie> (Some) C compilers on PPC have a double-double "long double".
06:45:42 <Bike> cmucl has double-double-floats.  i have no idea why, because it has hardware support nowhere
06:47:30 <fizzie> Better than a double, yet not as slow as a generic arbitrary-precision soft-float, perhaps.
06:48:10 <kmc> double double animal style
06:48:27 <Bike> doesn't have arbitrary precision floats.  the mystery deepens
06:49:49 -!- segorev has joined.
06:54:04 <fizzie> Double compile.
07:06:18 -!- nooga has joined.
07:14:55 <zzo38> I made some document for the skill generator of FurryScript.
07:16:04 <Sgeo__> aowjiefuiawhefiauwhfuioawyehruoafwyevfgawyefvoawefbghawhjfbgaukweyfawkhjufbaukwjefbawukefgakuvfaukwevgfauwgevfawuievfuiawyefguiawygefuiawyefgauiywefgauiwyefguiaweyfgaiw8efygauiwefg
07:17:21 <Sgeo__> The bug that I've been fighting this whole time, and blamed on the GIL at one point? Turns out I miscopied the account's key.
07:18:13 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
07:24:19 <Sgeo__> There's another bug somewhere
07:24:59 <shachaf> ?? ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw ?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw
07:24:59 <lambdabot>  "\""
07:25:21 <shachaf> ?? (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw) (?yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw)
07:25:22 <lambdabot>  "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\" "\"#$%&'()*+,\"" Just 'J' Just 'J' Exception: <<loop>>
07:26:18 <Bike> ibutwhat
07:27:22 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
07:27:32 <monqy> shachaf: @
07:28:08 <shachaf> monqy: ＠
07:28:17 <monqy> lambdabot: ＠
07:29:26 <shachaf> lambdabot: ﹫
07:29:43 <shachaf> lambdabot＠home
07:48:59 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
07:55:52 <Arc_Koen> hello
07:55:57 <monqy> hello
07:56:22 <shachaf> hello monqy
07:56:25 <shachaf> `welcome monqy
07:56:37 <HackEgo> monqy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:56:52 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: leaving).
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> "
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> How big was the original TimeToken?
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> The original TimeToken was 13 (thirteen) digit places.
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> How big is the new TimeToken?
08:05:02 <Sgeo__> The new TimeToken is 17 (seventeen) digit places.
08:05:04 <Sgeo__> How big is the difference between new and old TimeToken?
08:05:06 <Sgeo__> The difference is 4 (four) digit places."
08:05:15 <Sgeo__> FAQs. For people who can't do math.
08:06:18 <olsner> i.e. for everyone, because no-one can do math
08:07:11 <olsner> though I wonder how they managed to math out all those numbers given that no-one can do math
08:08:16 <fizzie> Maybe they used a mathputer.
08:18:50 <FreeFull> Who made the mathputer
08:32:36 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Bye).
08:38:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: They did.).
08:42:53 <olsner> the mathputer spontaneously erupted from math itself
08:47:38 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
09:08:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
09:08:59 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:09:19 -!- Deewiant has joined.
09:17:21 -!- Jafet has joined.
09:28:51 <shachaf> Jafet: (java)  :D
09:31:36 -!- atriq has joined.
09:32:28 <Jafet> I hope this isn't contagious.
09:32:46 <atriq> It's contagious
09:32:49 <atriq> Now tell me what it is
09:34:18 <shachaf> atriq: Uh-oh, now Jafet got it too.
09:34:43 <elliott> IMO Jafet isn't as good as Java
09:34:53 <Jafet> I hope I don't lose sleep over this.
09:34:54 <shachaf> IMO Java isn't as good as Jafet
09:35:10 <shachaf> Not just MO, too:
09:35:11 <shachaf> @karma Jafet
09:35:12 <lambdabot> Jafet has a karma of 20
09:35:13 <shachaf> @karma Java
09:35:13 <lambdabot> Java has a karma of 0
09:35:19 <shachaf> qed ?? i think so
09:35:50 <Jafet> Proof by mahayana metaphysics
09:37:12 <shachaf> elliott: Do you think Lens.Zipper-style zippers for infinite strict data structures are possible?
09:37:19 <shachaf> Infinite traversals of strict data structures.
09:37:24 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/81
09:38:00 <elliott> i don't know
09:38:10 <shachaf> good answer
09:39:57 <atriq> shachaf, can you give an example of an infinite strict data structure?
09:40:07 <shachaf> Integer
09:40:35 <shachaf> > toListOf traverseBits (5::Integer)
09:40:37 <lambdabot>   [True,False,True,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,Fals...
09:40:39 <shachaf> See? Infinite.
09:40:46 <atriq> Ooh
09:41:00 <Jafet> > toListOf traverseBits (-1 :: Integer)
09:41:02 <lambdabot>   [True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True,True...
09:41:14 <Jafet> Makes sense
09:42:26 <shachaf> Unfortunately there's no way to turn a traversed Integer back into an Integer.
09:42:29 <shachaf> That I know of.
09:43:07 <shachaf> Maybe you could do it with a special kind of Traversal.
09:43:11 <shachaf> I don't think it'd really be worth it...
09:43:20 <Jafet> Clearly we need that lazy integer thingylingy
09:43:36 <Jafet> Someone invent it
09:43:54 <Jafet> you will be granted a license to unamb
09:44:37 <shachaf> What lazy integer thingylingy?
09:45:12 <atriq> Testing my Fueue interpreter:
09:45:14 <atriq> *** Exception: Taneb's done something stupid!
09:45:19 <atriq> Thanks, me.
09:46:49 <Jafet> The one that we decided wasn't actually possible apart from Nat
09:46:58 <fizzie> Is "(java)" like when you cast some other language into a Java? 
09:47:18 <Jafet> How did you know that
09:55:54 -!- atriq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
09:56:33 -!- segorev has joined.
10:03:39 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:25:04 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
10:42:11 -!- atriq has joined.
10:48:19 -!- carado has joined.
10:52:15 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
10:58:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:59:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:00:41 -!- nooga has joined.
11:24:12 <elliott> [[
11:24:13 <elliott> It seems to me that .NET assemblies have the following advantages over Haskell packages:
11:24:13 <elliott> Being mostly compiled, .NET assemblies add very little overhead added to the build process.
11:24:13 <elliott> ]]
11:26:48 <atriq> Ah, the advantages of not supporting more than 1 operating system
11:30:21 <shachaf> .NET assemblies work on more than one operating system.
11:31:07 <shachaf> elliott: So if you have data Foo a = Foo [a] a [a]; instance Comonad Foo, and you want to generalize it to data Foo x a = Foo [a] x [a], you can't really do that, can you?
11:31:24 <shachaf> You can do Foo f a = Foo [a] (f a) [a], but that's hardly the same. :-(
11:32:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:33:36 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
11:47:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:48:59 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
12:00:50 -!- atriq has joined.
12:18:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
12:19:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
12:26:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
12:30:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
12:50:33 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:23:03 -!- ais523_ has joined.
13:23:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
13:23:12 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
13:34:35 <elliott> ais523: how's that super-safe transactional save mechanism working out for you
13:36:38 -!- Lumpio- has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
13:36:58 -!- Lumpio- has joined.
13:52:42 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:01:31 -!- nooodl has joined.
14:05:43 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:07:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
14:11:41 -!- ais523_ has joined.
14:11:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services).
14:11:51 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
14:12:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 16.0.2/20121024073032]).
14:16:19 -!- carado has joined.
14:16:26 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:20:51 -!- FreeFull has joined.
14:31:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:46:47 <atriq> I just found myself wishing for a zero-width space key on my keyboard
14:46:54 <shachaf> You have one.
14:46:57 <shachaf> You just don't see it.
14:51:23 -!- ais523 has quit.
14:52:18 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.scp-wiki.net/badapplications
14:52:25 <Phantom_Hoover> this is amazing
15:02:38 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
15:02:50 -!- atriq has joined.
15:24:45 -!- boily has joined.
15:26:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:34:32 -!- elliott has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
15:50:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:52:05 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:54:29 -!- segorev has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
16:08:17 -!- augur has joined.
16:16:04 -!- hagb4rd has joined.
16:36:08 -!- Bike has joined.
16:52:38 <kmc> TIL: python random.SystemRandom() is an object with the same API as random itself, which uses /dev/urandom directly
17:18:13 <oklofok> so
17:18:21 <oklofok> anyone here an expert on keyboards
17:19:24 <oklofok> i want an nkro ortho-linear keyboard with a separate numpad
17:19:46 <oklofok> separate as in not a numpad button that makes part of the keyboard into a numpad.
17:20:22 <oklofok> i'd prefer to pay less than 1000 euros
17:21:15 <oklofok> typematrix is ortho-linear, and i hear there are nkro keyboards. numpads are of course easier to find than not find.
17:21:32 <oklofok> but i haven't seen one with all
17:22:40 <oklofok> (i would also prefer blank skin because keyboards with text are kinda ugly, but i suppose that's easy to fix.)
17:27:15 <Arc_Koen> blank skin, you mean like a keyboard painted in white?
17:30:10 <oklofok> yes
17:30:26 <oklofok> but that's optional, i can just paint over it or something
17:32:19 <oklofok> i don't really care what the keys feel like, it'd be enough to get a keyboard that's not a retarded piece of shit.
17:32:40 <oklofok> (the definition of not being a retarded piece of shit being nkro + ortho-linear)
17:33:55 <oklofok> before i bought the typematrix, the definition was being ortho-linear, but nkro is an almost equally pressing issue which i only noticed later.
17:45:00 <Arc_Koen> hey does anyone know how http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rhotor works? there are no example programs and I don't really understand the syntax for functions
17:45:38 <Arc_Koen> apparently I'm supposed to use "the :symbol notation" but I don't really know what it does
17:46:19 <quintopia> oklofok: what is ortholinear
17:46:28 <oklofok> that the keys are arranged in a grid
17:46:40 <quintopia> rather than staggered?
17:46:40 <Arc_Koen> and the link to the interpreter seems broken
17:47:04 <oklofok> http://www.blog.cyberkinetx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/DSC_1944.jpg
17:47:09 <oklofok> yes
17:47:12 <quintopia> i suspect your requirements are too many
17:47:21 <oklofok> nkro + ortho-linear are the main ones
17:47:25 <Arc_Koen> neat
17:47:25 <oklofok> both are extremely rare
17:47:29 <quintopia> nkro already eliminates 9/10 of the market
17:47:35 <Arc_Koen> you should use that keyboard to shoot a science-fiction show
17:48:02 <oklofok> ortho-linear is way more important, i can't stand staggered (at least the standard way of staggering, diagonal lines would be okay probably, but i don't see the point)
17:48:36 <Arc_Koen> (we used to have touch screens for that, but they're so common now they don't look futuristic any longer)
17:48:54 <Arc_Koen> what's nkro?
17:49:01 <oklofok> n-key rollover
17:49:06 <oklofok> so you can press any amount of keys at the same time
17:49:25 <Arc_Koen> why would you want to do that
17:49:40 <quintopia> if you want to game with it
17:49:45 <Arc_Koen> oh, right
17:49:47 <quintopia> or if you want to use it for steno
17:50:12 <oklofok> for the same reason i want my keyboard not to have the feature that typing "escalladoddo" actually writes "dude you suck". nkro makes sense, non-nkro doesn't.
17:50:24 <Arc_Koen> doesn't steno care about some order among the typed letters?
17:50:35 <oklofok> and yeah if you had it, you could make programs that use it.
17:50:48 <oklofok> obviously most programs don't because keyboards don't have nkro.
17:50:57 <Arc_Koen> I'm not sure I understand your escalladoddo comment though
17:51:12 <oklofok> if i press two keys, i want two keypresses to be sent.
17:51:22 <Arc_Koen> (but I can relate to the T9 system used by my phone's keyboard is very very lame)
17:51:29 <oklofok> i don't want a random subset to be sent.
17:51:33 <quintopia> Arc_Koen: plover just looks at which keys were all typed in the last 100ms, regardless of order, and considers that a stroke
17:51:56 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\unfoog.
17:52:14 -!- ion has joined.
17:52:19 <oklofok> Arc_Koen: the comment was a very random example of a feature that doesn't have a point. yeah you might not bump into it. it still makes no sense.
17:52:40 <oklofok> the natural thing to happen when i press 7 keys is that 7 keys are sent.
17:53:02 <oklofok> also why do people always discuss WHY you'd wont nkro, and not instead tell why they want non-nkro?
17:53:09 <Arc_Koen> if I press two keys and let go, two letters appear on my screen
17:53:12 <oklofok> do you have a use for it?
17:53:48 <Arc_Koen> though if I press two keys and don't let go, first two letters appear, then one of the two get printed indefinitely and the other just don't
17:53:52 <quintopia> oklofok: they want, say, 5kro rather than nkro because it is far cheaper
17:54:08 <quintopia> the cheapest nkro kb is like $25
17:54:44 <quintopia> most are hundreds
17:54:54 <oklofok> i payed something like 100 for typematrix
17:55:02 <oklofok> i'd pay 400 more for nkro.
17:55:16 <quintopia> i understand
17:55:28 <quintopia> most people cannot fathom paying that much for a keyboard
17:55:35 <oklofok> i wouldn't have to feel ashamed of myself everytime i touch my keyboard
17:55:40 <oklofok> and humanity
17:57:30 <kmc> flat ortholinear seems pretty bad since fingers are not all the same length and resting position of hand is not perfectly flat
17:58:01 <kmc> it's hard for me to imagine any of these being more comfortable than the kinesis contoured
17:58:27 <oklofok> kinesis contoured is one i'm currently looking at
17:58:55 <oklofok> but where's the arrow keys?
17:59:26 <oklofok> flat ortholinear is way better than qwerty imo, never tried a contoured kb.
17:59:52 <kmc> arrow keys are just under qwerty's CV and M,
18:00:05 <kmc> small curl of the index and middle fingers
18:00:16 <kmc> pretty nice -- this is why i didn't learn vim hjkl until recently
18:01:03 <kmc> layout-wise the other big difference is putting bksp del home end pgup pgdn enter space and modifiers into thumb clusters
18:01:21 <kmc> it's pretty dumb that you have two thumbs, they're super strong, and yet on a normal keyboard they can only hit one key between them
18:01:21 <oklofok> left hand arrow keys?
18:01:32 <kmc> yes left/right are on the left and up/down are on the right
18:01:51 <kmc> also it has two \| keys
18:01:57 <kmc> which took me like a year to notice
18:02:00 <kmc> i have bound one to Esc
18:02:13 <kmc> but now i mostly use Ctrl-[ for escape
18:02:19 <oklofok> "<kmc> yes left/right are on the left and up/down are on the right" that seems a bit weird
18:02:27 <oklofok> but i guess you get used to it pretty fast
18:02:36 <oklofok> so umm, i suppose no nkro?
18:02:47 <kmc> i think not
18:03:09 <kmc> based on disassembling mine I think it would be fairly easy to replace the controller board
18:03:21 <kmc> but the switches might still be wired up in a matrixey way that precludes nkro
18:03:22 <oklofok> http://www.amazon.com/Crayola-USB-EZ-Type-Keyboard/dp/B00167ZYMK/ref=sr_1_199?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1352916035&sr=1-199&keywords=keyboard
18:03:25 <oklofok> that looks nice
18:03:27 <oklofok> :-D
18:03:42 <kmc> is it labeled in comic sans
18:03:52 <kmc> teaching children qwerty :(
18:05:04 <oklofok> i tried to learn dvorak at some point but ä and ö were just too annoying.
18:05:18 <quintopia> whats wrong with teaching children qwerty? are you a dvorak snob?
18:05:24 <oklofok> (at least in the standard layout you get by pressing the dvorak button)
18:05:45 <ion> I use altgr-q for ä and altgr-p for ö.
18:05:46 <quintopia> or do you think we should just give them all touchscreens with swype?
18:06:06 <oklofok> ion: i'd prefer a single key
18:06:13 <kmc> quintopia: qwerty sucks
18:06:20 <kmc> dvorak is one of many non-shitty alternatives
18:06:35 <kmc> i don't claim that dvorak in particular is awesome, just that qwerty sucks
18:06:48 <kmc> that said my complaint is not very serious, because in the real world, being able to type in qwerty is very useful
18:06:50 <quintopia> you arent proposing an alternative
18:06:53 <kmc> and so it's probably a good skill for your children to have
18:06:58 <quintopia> or providing an argument for that matter
18:07:14 <kmc> what crawled up your butt and died
18:07:25 <quintopia> pizz
18:07:26 <quintopia> a
18:07:30 <kmc> om nom nom
18:07:47 <kmc> if i weren't at work i would send a very nsfw animated gif at this juncture
18:07:47 <Arc_Koen> kmc: is that why you never learned esperanto?
18:07:58 <kmc> i don't follow
18:08:22 <oklofok> quintopia: you like qwerty?
18:09:50 <quintopia> i dont see any problem with it really. i know they say dvorak is up to 10% faster with a year of practice, but keyboards are going to be slow. that's just how keyboarding is.
18:10:08 <Arc_Koen> kmc: well, because the ability to speak in actual languages is more important than speaking esperanto, in real life
18:11:12 <oklofok> keyboards are slow? compared to what?
18:11:21 <oklofok> they're pretty slow compared to speech at least
18:11:35 <oklofok> but do you mean like other methods of doing things on the computer
18:13:20 <quintopia> compared to steno
18:13:31 <quintopia> and yes, speech
18:13:47 <quintopia> also they are not very ergonomic.
18:13:55 <kmc> Arc_Koen: also esperanto is just boring
18:14:02 <kmc> yet another romance language
18:14:08 <kmc> might as well learn a romance language people actually use
18:14:24 <kmc> whereas, I can see the interest of learning Lojban even though nobody uses it
18:14:32 <kmc> or hungarian
18:14:43 <Arc_Koen> kmc: I hope you're not one of those Lojban nerds!
18:14:51 <Arc_Koen> erk, you jsut said that
18:15:32 <oklofok> quintopia: can you teach a computer to read steno? would be pretty cool
18:15:36 <kmc> i don't know any lojban
18:15:41 <oklofok> oo i love lojban
18:15:43 <kmc> learned a tiny bit a long time ago and then forgot
18:15:45 <Arc_Koen> Lojban seemed very interesting but I have decided not to try to learn it until I speak Chinese, Russian, Arabic, German, and at least five other languages
18:16:16 <Arc_Koen> and since this condition is probably never gonna be fulfilled in this lifetime... :)
18:16:31 <quintopia> oklofok: steno machines *are* computers, but again, plover can steno from a regular nkro keyboard
18:16:39 <quintopia> its foss too
18:17:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:17:23 <oklofok> ohh you mean that sorta steno
18:17:58 <oklofok> i thought you meant just writing shorthand with pen.
18:18:22 <zzo38> Do you know how to write shorthand?
18:18:31 <quintopia> i think steno is faster and more ergonomic than any penbased method
18:18:31 <oklofok> no
18:18:52 <quintopia> learning curve is superhigh tho
18:18:59 <oklofok> so about steno, do you actually write all the data?
18:19:47 <quintopia> data?
18:20:01 <oklofok> like can you write asdf8
18:20:09 <quintopia> sure
18:20:14 <oklofok> or can you just write speech in some abbreviated... okay
18:20:29 <quintopia> but if you want to write gibberish you have to do one stroke per letter
18:20:41 <quintopia> whereas real words are 1-4 strokds per word
18:21:05 <oklofok> hmmhmm
18:21:19 <oklofok> so you can actually use stenos as everyday kbs?
18:21:32 <quintopia> yeah
18:21:43 <quintopia> miranda knight uses it for everything
18:21:52 <quintopia> stenoknight.com
18:21:57 <Bike> i know a guy who uses half his keyboard, as chorded steno input
18:30:08 -!- Section42L has joined.
18:30:15 -!- Section42L has left.
18:34:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:39:24 -!- Vorpal has joined.
18:43:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:43:48 -!- augur has joined.
18:44:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:44:31 -!- augur has joined.
18:45:46 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:46:05 -!- augur has joined.
19:16:11 -!- oklofok has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:16:31 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:16:54 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:36:54 -!- monqy has joined.
20:09:19 -!- ogrom has joined.
20:09:19 -!- ogrom has quit (Client Quit).
20:13:49 -!- atriq has joined.
20:42:14 -!- atriq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:44:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:03:46 -!- augur has joined.
21:12:01 -!- atriq has joined.
21:43:51 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
22:07:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:24 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:13:16 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:20:40 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
22:31:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:35:41 -!- augur has joined.
22:37:05 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:38:08 -!- segorev has joined.
22:41:16 <Sgeo__> monqy, update that I can't see because I can't seem to connect to MSPA for some bizarre reason :(
22:41:25 <monqy> hi
22:41:34 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
22:51:36 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:52:23 -!- Jafet has joined.
22:52:48 -!- ais523\unfoog has quit.
22:53:33 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:56:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:56:54 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:00:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:01:59 <Sgeo__> Phantom__Hoover, there was an update
23:03:28 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:13:23 <Arc_Koen> yeah, Phantom__Hoover, I think I saw someone update brainfuck recently
23:13:26 <Arc_Koen> you should check it out
23:16:41 <Arc_Koen> an update to your tumblr would be great though
23:22:59 <Phantom__Hoover> @tell atriq i should really update my tumblr some day eh
23:23:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:44:04 -!- Jafet1 has joined.
23:44:47 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:45:58 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:52:38 -!- hagb4rd has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).