00:11:08 i wonder what are the consequences of that, besides DoS 00:11:19 perhaps it makes traffic analysis or session downgrade attacks easier 00:12:10 Well, as you pointed out, you still need to know the sequence number to send the RST packet. 00:12:43 i wonder how long it is before Chromium installs a shim that runs as root and reimplements TCP to their exact preferences using raw sockets 00:14:58 Goodnight 00:14:58 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:15:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 00:17:14 i wonder if people worry about "end-to-end" net neutrality 00:17:31 that is, instead of your ISP making certain sites slower, your browser or OS could do so 00:17:51 it's already the case that Chrome performs better and is more secure when accessing Google sites, not for particularly nefarious reasons 00:18:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:27:43 it's already the case that Chrome performs better and is more secure when accessing Google sites, not for particularly nefarious reasons <-- or anything else that offers SPDY 00:27:50 which is starting to appear 00:28:09 sure 00:28:14 I guess the list of hard coded certificates won't be available to most other sites though 00:28:44 I think some big non-google sites have that protection as well, like paypal 00:29:30 also some vanity domains of the people who worked on the feature at google :3 00:29:45 i think there is a process for third parties to get included 00:29:47 oh? heh 00:29:52 in the HSTS preload if not the hardcoded certs 00:30:02 ah 00:30:21 i mean Chromium is open source right ;) 00:30:31 well yeah 00:30:45 the vast majority will be using Chrome not Chromium, just saying 00:31:34 doesn't chrome pull from the open source project though 00:31:54 well sure 00:32:03 but they can make their own modifications should they wish to 00:32:04 kmc: Do you use Chromium? 00:32:15 yeah 00:32:21 Do you use libpdf.so? 00:32:27 don't think so 00:32:44 shachaf, what is libpdf.so? 00:32:48 something from poppler? 00:32:55 A plugin from Chrome to view PDFs in-browser. 00:33:00 I think it's binary-only. 00:33:03 ah 00:33:08 I used to use it but it crashes Chromium now. 00:33:32 "Pop a Poppler in your mouth when you come to Fishy Joe's / What they're made of is a mystery, where they come from no-one knows" 00:33:47 that explains the difference in behaviour between Windows and Linux chrom(e|ium) PDF behaviour 00:34:03 "You can pick 'em you can lick 'em you can chew 'em you can stick 'em / If you promise not to sue us you can shove one up your nose." 00:34:16 Vorpal: Chrome has the PDF viewer on every platform now, I think. 00:34:19 But not Chromium. 00:34:36 shachaf, I thought it was just some compile time option that was off, or the version that was different 00:34:43 but I guess that was the cause then 00:35:03 Having a PDF viewer in the browser is pretty great. :-( 00:35:50 shachaf, eh, making evince or whatever load takes like 2 seconds 00:36:18 Vorpal: What if you're "one of those people" who has hundreds of tabs open? 00:36:20 same for the PDF app I use on windows, which I forgot the name of. It isn't adobe reader 00:36:22 And half of them are PDFs. 00:36:42 Vorpal: What if you're "one of those people" who has hundreds of tabs open? <-- I used to be one of those, nowdays I'm down to maybe 50 00:36:48 And half of them are PDFs. <-- lol what 00:36:53 Why do you need so many tabs? 00:37:31 I'll let shachaf explain that 00:37:36 I need to sleep, good night 00:37:43 I'll let Vorpal explain that. 00:38:08 No! He needs to sleeps, good night. 00:40:22 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 00:40:45 Needs For Sleeps III: Sweets Dreams 00:42:20 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:42:31 -!- JavaBotN has joined. 00:42:36 -!- JavaBotN has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:44:29 -!- Arc_Koen has quit (Quit: It's a ship. It goes through the gate.). 00:58:37 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:02:26 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:07:08 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined. 01:08:23 I also intend to make up a new computer, as much hardware open source as possible and all built-in software open source, as much simplify as possible, includes a DVD with many games, a complete manual (including pinouts, schematics, detail of built-in software, licenses, jumpers, BIOS calls, instruction set, etc) 01:08:45 Often I find computers today their manual is incomplete. 01:11:31 And they contain mistakes too 01:22:56 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 01:53:35 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:59:17 > "Am I online?" 01:59:19 "Am I online?" 01:59:36 you could just ping, you know. 01:59:53 @ping 01:59:53 pong 02:00:40 It depend what you are trying to check; sometimes I use PING command to the server to check connection to server. To check client connection, is different. 02:01:19 I wasn't sure about @ping 02:03:14 Do you know if there is any MML compiler for Csound? 02:05:34 http://blog.ezyang.com/2012/11/plan-9-mounts-and-dependency-injection/ 02:05:34 This makes me want to use Plan 9 02:05:42 "use" 02:07:20 @ping 02:07:20 pong 02:08:33 What time did I say that I want to use Plan 9? 02:08:42 And I do have some use cases for the sort of thing that that article talks about 02:12:20 @ping 02:12:20 pong 02:12:34 XChat says my lag is 12.4 seconds, but I saw that almost instantly 02:13:12 what use-cases 02:15:02 Taking an IRC bot and making it talk on a different protocol without writing a fake IRC server. 02:15:49 why on earth would writing a fake server be the solution there 02:16:01 have you actually written an irc bot 02:16:09 Yes, several. 02:16:20 But I'm thinking more of bots whose code I am too lazy to change 02:16:59 do those bots run on plan 9 02:17:36 Is there a Tcl implementation that runs on Plan 9? Is there a Python implementation that runs on Plan 9? 02:17:55 Actually, hmm, I think the Tcl bot uses some library that uses native code, for XML stuff :( 02:18:02 hey 02:18:04 Not entirely sure 02:18:39 more to the point, does the socket stuff in the irc library work on plan 9 and bla bla bla bla 02:18:41 i really dont see how youd be able to use an existing program and do those things 02:18:45 since 02:18:47 youd need an actual file to override 02:18:52 so itd have to do networking plan 9-style 02:18:56 which a compatibility layer... wouldnt 02:19:40 Wouldn't the networking API of a Plan 9 implementation of those languages do Plan 9 style networking when the application does what it thinks are normal networking calls? 02:19:43 Maybe it would be easier to write an x86/OS emulator that would automatically translate into appopriate protocol thingamajiggers. 02:19:56 well if it does networking plan 9 style 02:20:04 then i'm pretty sure you'd have to actually supply the whole dial() device thing 02:20:13 i forget how it actually works though 02:20:20 but i dont really see how this is viable with any kind of compatibility layer 02:20:31 that said i approve of use of plan 9 02:20:34 it is a beautiful system 02:21:31 Is Inferno a sort of successor? 02:21:31 @ping 02:21:32 pong 02:22:01 Less than a minute later. I'm impressed. 02:22:40 plan 9 is still based on the idea that C is the end-all of programming languages and the byte is the most perfect data structure, right? 02:22:43 i guess inferno is not 02:24:23 Am I going to see Plan 9-style beauty by looking at Inferno, is my question I guess 02:26:14 inferno is like plan 9 but in a vm but weird and there's limbo and stuff 02:26:20 also its deader than plan 9 afaik 02:26:28 since some people actually use plan 9 and i dont think anyone really uses inferno 02:26:32 so i dont know why youd look at it 02:26:38 kmc: well sort of 02:26:41 Is Limbo bad? 02:26:57 kmc: it takes the directory tree as the most perfect data structure moreso, also its C language is better than standard C 02:27:02 kmc: but yes that is its main problem 02:27:07 kmc: oh it also has excellent Unicode support obviously 02:27:14 since invented UTF-8 etc. 02:27:22 Sgeo_: idk 02:27:24 its weird 02:30:18 @ping at 12:29PM my time. 02:30:19 @ping 02:30:19 erm, 21 02:30:19 pong 02:30:19 pong 02:30:28 That was shockingly fast 02:32:14 If it takes a while for there to be a connection 02:32:22 And it sends all my line squickly 02:32:25 ... darn it 02:32:30 I thought I would look like a really fast typer 02:32:40 Blah 02:32:44 Foo 02:32:45 Bar 02:32:45 Baz 02:34:50 hi 02:35:09 how is its C better than standard C 02:35:55 i forget all the changes but all the ones it does have are good changes 02:36:14 like its IO library isn't nearly as dumb 02:36:26 its linking system is much better (no -l at the command-line) 02:36:32 it has the nice struct inclusion thing go has 02:36:38 (and GNU C, as an extension nobody uses) 02:37:01 also it does cross-compilation much much better 02:37:05 plan 9 has excellent cross-architecture support 02:37:12 since it was built to handle distributed systems that used multiple architectures 02:37:15 but one filesystem 02:37:27 and of course it has actual unicode support 02:37:35 (BMP only because it predates >16-bit Unicode, unfortunately) 02:39:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:41:55 which struct inclusion? 02:44:14 struct foo { struct bar; ... } 02:44:22 if bar has element x you can do f.x where struct foo f; 02:44:33 it's like "inheritance" but it's actually composition 02:44:43 huh 02:44:47 what if you want a struct that actually has a struct as an element? 02:44:48 and this just happens automatically in gnu c? 02:44:49 (the -l removal thing is done by having pragmas in the header files that specify what library to link with fwiw) 02:44:54 Bike: then you do struct bar y; 02:44:59 ahhh. 02:45:00 oh i see 02:45:08 kmc: no it just supports the same syntax (iirc, maybe it is actually different) if you enable the extension with a flag 02:45:34 that's pretty gross yet enjoyable, like 02:45:50 most gnu c extensions don't require a flag beyond -std=gnu99 or whatever, which is default 02:46:47 http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/programming/c_programming_in_plan_9 is a decent introduction to Plan 9 C 02:47:07 though a practical one rather than one that explains why Plan 9's programming environment feels so well-designed 02:47:31 oh right plan 9 also has a networking library that doesn't make me want to die 02:47:34 which is a nice improvement over BSD sockets 02:47:36 which does make me want to die 02:47:55 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:52:03 an important distinction 02:55:29 -!- madbr has joined. 02:57:38 If you want to die, then you should first check if you are sure, and if you are really sure then die. 02:57:51 words to live by 02:57:59 but can they be expressed in flowchart form 02:58:12 zzo38: What if you checked and found out that you're sure, but then didn't check that you're sure you're sure? 02:59:14 shachaf: Then too bad you have to learn to try again, that is why you should wait a while after you sleep then you can think of that and try again 03:01:12 argh, I'm obsessed by instruction set design 03:02:17 What instruction sets do you design? 03:04:52 usually they're in the family of early RISCs 03:05:06 avoiding out of order execution basically 03:05:41 but trying to avoid ending up with something impossible to pipeline like the 6502 03:06:09 Is the ARM2 instruction set OK? 03:06:32 often the results look kinda like the ARM instruction set yes 03:08:33 Have you send anything to Famicompo Mini vol.9? I have send some, but I won't tell you which one. 03:09:19 One instruction set I want to have is some instruction set which the Checkout esolang compile into easily and have a hardware implementation (in some hardware description language) 03:09:25 nah, this time around I didn't care enough and didn't make anything 03:10:19 Did you download it? 03:10:31 didn't really listen to it 03:11:36 What's Famicompo? 03:11:51 bike: NSF song competition 03:11:52 Bike: Music contest involving .NSF format 03:11:58 ah. 03:12:10 NSF is music ripped from NES games 03:12:22 You can use any number of expansions (including multiple expansions) or no expansions. 03:12:27 playing it actually involves running a small NES emulator 03:13:11 Not always is ripped you can make up your own music using various programs such as ppMCK and FamiTracker. 03:13:44 yeah for Famicompo you make your own song 03:13:45 -!- NihilistDandy has joined. 03:14:27 you can actually play the songs from famicompo if you have a powerpak cart... or at least, the ones that don't use expansions 03:14:59 I always use ppMCK (although I have made various improvements to ppMCK, so now it has track questioning commands, subroutines, tail recursion, text replacement macros, custom tuning, and various other things) 03:15:01 and fit in the powerpak (max 256k data I think) 03:15:05 I was confused by all the talk of instruction sets. 03:15:43 instruction set design is hard :o 03:16:01 I have tried in before to design instruction set. 03:16:10 well yes, but is that related to chiptuning, or what 03:16:12 I have designed some instruction sets for virtual machines, though. 03:16:32 bike: yes 03:16:36 well, NSF is 03:16:41 not instruction sets :D 03:18:15 Have you used some effect with multi channels with the same notes but with different delay, duty, octave, etc? 03:25:13 Such as in "ctfinal" the M and N channels play the same notes but with a different delay, duty, volume, and octave; same with a and channels, and the C and O channels play the same notes with no delay but they have a different waveform, and uses detune, etc 03:26:52 So I have set up effect at the start like M @@0@v1 and N @@1@v2r16K12 and then when the notes are played like MN l4o4 ce-gc' ^1 b-2gb- ^c'^2 ce-a- ^1 g2f^8a-8 gfe-d it will use effects that are set. 03:26:56 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:27:22 @ping 03:27:22 pong 03:28:11 Although you said you used Impulse Tracker? So you would have to program the effects differently 03:29:50 You would have to write them manually I guess, or use copy/paste 03:48:05 every time flash plugin crashes, take a shot 03:49:52 I often use fake delay and detuning and layering yes 03:50:25 I use copy/paste a lot 03:59:06 http://www.salon.com/2012/11/09/white_house_obama_will_veto_any_bill_extending_tax_cuts_for_those_making_more_than_250k/singleton/ journalism 03:59:18 i like how it is by 04:00:40 How can you program NSF effects in Impulse Tracker anyways? 04:00:51 elliott: guess the wire doesn't have much capacity 04:01:50 zzo: depends on the converter 04:01:59 there are like 3 different converters 04:02:29 What do you use? 04:02:46 all 3 :D 04:03:00 s3m2nsf is the simples 04:03:01 t 04:03:25 only supports VRC6, no special macros 04:03:38 it simply plays the s3m with the NES waveforms as the samples 04:04:11 for some freak reason, s3m note frequencies and NES ones are the same 04:06:02 But wouldn't you still have to program in the duty of square waves? 04:06:45 it simply uses instrument 1,2,3,4 as duties 12%,25%,50%,75% 04:07:18 OK, although VRC6 supports different duty than 2A03 (and VRC6 also lacks 75% duty) 04:07:19 and 5 as triangle wave, 6 noise, 7 short noise, 8+ dpcm 04:07:43 zzo: oh yeah forgot about those 04:08:10 I can't remember how it maps the VRC6 duties but it's just instrument numbers too 04:09:17 the second converter is it2nsf and it supports a lot more stuff 04:09:25 essentially all expansions 04:09:30 MML macros 04:09:45 (you have to enter them in the song comments and it parses that) 04:10:17 some IT stuff like note off commands 04:11:04 third converter is supernsf which is the one that does software mixing for multichannel PCM 04:15:00 Can it use the MMC5 8-bit PCM? 04:15:48 dunnp 04:15:49 o 04:16:10 The MMC5 8-bit PCM is the only feature which ppMCK does not support. 04:16:23 supernsf uses the same hw as the DPCM 04:16:28 it just writes the value 04:16:37 O, so it uses 7-bit PCM, then. 04:16:41 yes 04:22:52 Have you used ppMCK or any other programs to write a .NSF music other than the three you mentioned? 04:26:13 What I would like to have is program to compile MML into MOD/S3M/IT modules; do you know of any such software? 04:26:48 kmc: btw plan 9's rc shell is also much better than any unix shell I know of 04:27:00 (in terms of the language, not the interactive features, of which it has none; that's all in the terminal in plan 9) 04:27:14 no I just use IT + converter 04:27:34 I've never tried MML actually 04:29:36 It might be difficult to do because you may have various features in MML which the module formats does not support, including desynchronized loops and having multiple effects running simultaneously and subroutines and various other things 04:29:51 I have used Impulse Tracker and ModPlug Tracker, but I find MML is much better. 04:30:05 Some people don't; and that is OK you can use what you prefer. 04:31:31 Which expansion audio have you used in .NSF? 04:31:32 yeah but most of these things are very rare in music 04:32:19 you'd think the limit of having only one effect blocks many things but in real life usage it's really not that bad at all 04:32:44 most effects are either used on note on or after note on and are more or less mutually exclusive 04:33:07 desynchronized loops in not useful in music 04:33:22 subroutines I just do with copy paste 04:34:33 Well, I do sometimes have some channels playing a much shorter loop than others 04:35:00 If it is an exact multiple, it could easily be compiled into a format that does not support that, by automatically making as many copies as needed 04:40:42 has to be on beat 04:40:50 so of course it's all going to be powers of 2 04:41:31 Although the time signature could be 3/4 or something else like that 04:44:05 mostly it's much easier to listen to your song as you make it in the tracker 04:45:31 that a much larger advantage that anything you'd win from subroutine stuff 04:45:43 Maybe to you it is. 04:46:04 it's the different between music and programming :D 04:46:49 it's better to copy paste a section of music 04:46:49 But even deaf people can write music. 04:47:32 than to have multiple links to one piece of data 04:47:47 because if you copy paste it's much easier to modify it 04:47:54 without changing the other copies 04:49:25 and that's something you want to do a LOT 04:49:42 variation is the key 04:49:52 To you it is. To me, well, sometimes I want to make a copy with variation, but other times I don't want. 04:50:09 if you don't want variation you just copy paste 04:50:16 But especially if it is a multi-channel effect I don't want to have to change everything in all channels 04:50:42 mhm, in that case you're right 04:51:34 Of course in MML you can still copy/paste too (and use any other functions your text editor has, such as regular expressions), and I use that too. 04:52:09 I just find it easier to write music using MML, although this is not the case for everyone. 04:52:59 well, that's because you're a programmer 04:54:49 Even things specific to music such as to indicate if I want D sharp or E flat (which are the same note, but written differently), or even double sharp possibly, or to change ostinato, including short drum loops, to just write it once and have it loop 04:55:48 And comments; sometimes I want to keep track of what chords I want and so on 04:58:13 why would you want to use a double sharp 04:58:41 It is rare, but there are some cases in which such thing would be used. 04:59:30 like when 04:59:36 Another thing which is rare but sometimes used is to change the time signature in different parts of the music, and what is even more rare is for the right hand and left hand to have different time signatures. 05:00:07 madbr: One case is if your key signature has sharps, and you want to raise one of those notes in one case, you would use a double sharp. 05:03:24 that's really only important in staff notation 05:03:39 and just really when it's the most readable notation, which is very rare 05:06:01 Well, at least I find it easier to write music when keeping track of things such as this. 05:06:25 that's because you're a programmer 05:06:59 when you're punching in notes for the sound it doesn't matter if your Gm chord is G A# D 05:07:27 No, it is because I know how to write music. 05:07:45 I don't just make up notes at random to see if it sound right. 05:08:22 I would think of the notes I want and then put them in. 05:08:32 ah 05:08:37 Like anyone who write music would do. 05:08:42 what I do is that I think of notes 05:08:47 then try them 05:08:49 listen 05:08:54 if I like it, keep 05:09:10 if I don't like it, try to see if I can make it better 05:09:34 also it's easy to get "happy accidents" 05:09:43 which you'll want to keep and elaborate on ofc 05:10:59 also it helps when you try 2 or 3 voicings for a chord 05:11:03 and chose the best one 05:13:00 I would just think of if it is OK or not; there is no need to try it until after it is written. 05:13:36 -!- NihilistDandy has quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]). 05:14:07 do you play your stuff on a keyboard as you compose it? 05:14:11 And some composers are deaf they cannot listen to it at all. However, they are much better composers than I am anyways. 05:14:15 or sing to yourself? 05:14:22 madbr: Sometimes, but usually I just think of it. 05:14:34 there's beethoven but that was a special case 05:15:13 I do have a piano but usually (not always) I find it sufficient to think of it, and using the classical musical theory. 05:16:31 theory won't tell you if a melody works or not 05:16:33 It can often be easier when written down, though, especially the chords. 05:17:05 madbr: Yes, I know, but if I can think of the melody then I could know the melody. 05:17:09 or if a given progression of chord voicings don't work even tho they're correct in theory 05:18:59 Yes, with chord voicings I do sometimes find it necessary to try it, although not always; the chords I may play on piano, although I may write them down on a normal musical notation; melody I can usually just think of and write using MML. 05:19:52 But like I said not always, so even when writing the chords directly using MML I will write comments so that I know what chord I want instead of having to read the notes (even when writing on paper, I write the chord symbols so I know what chords I want; this is same idea) 05:21:11 But usually I will know that I want this voice to go up and down, and that voice to go down and up, and then work the chords around that. 05:22:55 So the voices may be written like separate melody or accompaniment 05:24:32 I only know the classical music theory, and it works for me, although I usually don't need any theory to know if the melody is good. 05:25:08 do you know jazz theory? 05:25:21 No, I don't know jazz 05:28:34 My sister studied both classical and jazz 05:36:35 also if you don't listen to your stuff as you compose it, how do you know when to follow the rules and when not to? :D 05:37:45 I don't know how I know, somehow I usually know, though; some other composers do too and I don't know how they know either. 05:38:38 and how do you mix your nsf music? 05:38:48 Using ppMCK. 05:39:23 you do multiple conversions adjusting stuff each time? 05:41:09 If I do something I realize I didn't like, then yes I will adjust something each time, but usually I don't need unless I made a mistake. Usually the first thing I would do is to write only a few bars to figure out the effects I want, and then I know what effects and the rest of the music I can write all at once since I can think of that. 05:45:54 Famicompo Mini vol.7 has a few files in original section using multiple expansions, but in vol.9 there is only one file in original section which uses multiple expansions. 05:46:22 Which expansions have you used? 05:46:32 vrc6, vrc7 05:46:42 especially vrc7 05:47:49 I did write a program to test VRC7 patches, although I wrote it a while ago before I know really how it works, so it is very unlikely to work on a real hardware and runs only on an emulator, but it is good enough for my use. 05:48:21 Although sometimes there is no need and I just know if I want a pure sine wave it is easy and it is not necessary to test it at first. 05:48:26 I would probably have done the patches on adlib tracker 2 (OPL3) 05:48:34 and translated them 05:48:57 but I used only default patches 05:50:24 I do not think it has all features of OPL3, so I don't expect that to work. 05:50:37 well, using only the subset that works ofc 05:52:37 I made a .NES file to test the VRC7 patches instead (it test both the built-in and custom patches), although what you suggest might work too. 05:53:36 Have you used VRC6 and VRC7 together? 05:54:42 no 05:55:03 the mix of regular nes channels and vrc7 is already crazy enough :D 05:55:49 I should write more opl3 music 05:56:03 there's not enough opl3 specific music (using custom patches etc) 05:56:32 Is there Csound program to emulate OPL3? 05:57:16 there's an OPL3 emulation in the MAME source code 05:58:02 I think some of the features are wrong but very few people used those so in actual use (ie games on dosbox) it works 05:58:41 But Csound has its own programming language for writing music. 05:59:17 yes that's why I don't use Csound 06:01:08 The orchestra format is OK, but the score format seem wouldn't be very good to write music and MML would be better; but, Csound only support the numeric score. (A program could be written to convert MML to numeric score, and I might write such a program.) 06:01:49 dude 06:02:05 tbh you should learn to use something like ableton 06:02:11 But I do like the Csound orchestra format. 06:02:20 or reaper or cubase or fruity loops 06:02:25 or etc... 06:02:41 programs that are designed for, you know, composing music 06:02:45 I have used some of those and I find they don't help. 06:03:30 Especially if you want to write your own instrument program; for this, I find Csound is very good and I have experimented with some instrument sounds using Csound. 06:05:29 I'd rather use something like synthedit for designing instruments 06:06:07 or use C++ and make a nice tight VST that other ppl can use too 06:09:28 for me csound is in the same category as max/msp and puredata and supercollider and whatever else 06:09:49 toys until someone can demonstrate a serious musical use 06:10:27 er max/msp is used to make actual music that people buy 06:10:59 youtube link 06:11:06 what 06:11:30 link to a song that is actual music that people buy and that uses max/msp 06:11:46 uh oh, elliott ! hope you know your music 06:11:54 is this a trick question where you define "actual music" as "not whatever i linked to" 06:11:59 no 06:12:19 right off the top of my head i know autechre use max extensively for example 06:12:38 aha yeah ok that definitely counts 06:12:52 max costs money so probably people use it for actual things??? 06:12:59 bad "roi" otherwise 06:13:28 akira yamaoka uses max, he scores video games and crap. 06:13:28 monqy: it's not about the money 06:13:54 you can't buy roi with happiness 06:13:54 bad "roi" ? 06:13:58 return on investment 06:14:06 you mean money roi or usage roi? 06:14:12 roi roi 06:14:24 I don't like VST, although Csound can be compiled with support for VST (in both directions) if you need it. Csound can also load MIDI sequences if that would help you too. 06:14:42 what's wrong with vst? 06:15:52 It has restrictive licensing, is Windows only, requires a GUI to use, and some others. Nevertheless Csound can use VST if it is helpful to do so. 06:16:38 windows/mac 06:16:53 also it's like the least stupid of the plugin APIs 06:17:15 AU is like 10 times more restrictive, RTAS like 100 times 06:17:33