00:00:26 <kmc> X1 Carbon with i7 processor and 8 GB of RAM
00:00:55 <kmc> due to thinness the RAM is soldered on and can't be upgraded :/
00:01:26 <kmc> on the US site you can get the best CPU or the best RAM but not both at once :(
00:01:53 <shachaf> kmc: Soon Haswell will come out and it won't be the best CPU anymore.
00:02:03 <kmc> true enough
00:02:10 <pikhq> Why can't i just by "the best CPU for all time"?
00:02:47 <kmc> is cerqvpgnoyrchaf a haswell instruction
00:02:55 <olsner> oh, carbon was an actual part of the name, I thought it was generally refering to any carbon fibery lenovo model starting with "x"
00:03:07 <olsner> (which is pretty much all of them)
00:03:08 <kmc> yeah, this one is... more carbon fibery
00:03:19 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, that gzips a buffer.
00:04:46 <pikhq> Well, rep cerqvpgnoyrchaf does. Without the rep prefix it consumes a single byte of the to-be-gzip'd stream (of course)
00:04:50 <kmc> they typically use carbon fiber reinforced plastic, together with magnesium alloy
00:09:54 <olsner> the new keyboard style looks flimsy though
00:11:58 <kmc> everyone who has reviewed it says it's great
00:12:42 <kmc> i literally have not heard a single bad thing from anyone who has actually used it
00:12:52 <kmc> plenty of nerd rage from thinkpad diehards looking at photos, though
00:13:16 <kmc> i don't think you can really tell if it's flimsy from photos
00:13:32 <kmc> i'll also note that the internal mechanism of the beloved 'classic keyboard' changed all the time
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00:24:16 <kmc> all laptop keyboards hurt my hands; they can't compare to the kinesis
00:25:37 <shachaf> I want a kinesis keyboard for my phone.
00:25:42 <shachaf> You could call it a telekinesis.
00:52:25 <kmc> shachaf: today I actually understood how Django's CSRF protection works
00:52:53 <shachaf> Is it an unusual sort of CSRF protection?
00:52:58 <kmc> i don't know
00:53:06 <kmc> perhaps i actually understood how CSRF protection works in general
00:53:40 <kmc> the server makes up a random value and sets it in a cookie
00:53:52 <kmc> and also arranges that all form submissions will include this value in a hidden <input>
00:54:11 <kmc> when a request comes in, the server doesn't know what the "right" random value is
00:54:18 <kmc> it just checks that the cookie matches the form field
00:54:34 <shachaf> That's CSRF protection in general, I think.
00:54:45 <kmc> i think this is the usual way
00:54:50 <shachaf> What would it mean for it to know the "right" random value? That it would store a value in a database and look it up from your session cookie?
00:55:10 <shachaf> That's still cookie-indexed, so I don't think you gain much.
00:55:11 <kmc> right -- I think in that case there's no point in it being distinct from the session ID
00:55:34 <shachaf> You usually do want to avoid using the session cookie itself as the CSRF token.
00:55:40 <kmc> if you had a system where the session ID is submitted with every request, that would also be safe against CSRF
00:55:49 <kmc> but would be insecure in other ways
00:55:58 <shachaf> Ideally JavaScript doesn't have access to the session ID at all.
00:56:05 <kmc> but i haven't thought through which specifically; it just seems like a bad idea
00:56:08 <kmc> yeah, that's one of them
00:56:54 <kmc> one advantage of it not being part of the session is that you can protect not-logged-in views, including the login page
00:59:57 <kmc> i don't know enough about web security
00:59:59 <kmc> gotta learn more
01:01:10 <shachaf> I found multiple web bugs in a web application that's running on my computer right now. :-(
01:01:26 <shachaf> Including broken XSS protection and pretty broken CSRF protection.
01:01:51 <shachaf> Also, double-free or something. But I didn't have any luck tracking it down last time.
01:02:41 <shachaf> I should probably report it...
01:04:41 <kmc> what is broken about them?
01:05:08 <shachaf> A CSRF token is generated based on a very complicated algorithm seeded with time(NULL).
01:05:22 <shachaf> On a web page that you normally never visit.
01:07:03 <kmc> the significance of the latter is that you keep the same one for a long time?
01:07:07 <kmc> did you report those two problems?
01:09:16 <shachaf> No, because I was hoping to track down the other problem and make them all work together.
01:09:29 <shachaf> Individually they're relatively minor bugs but code-execution-by-visiting-a-webpage-on-a-default-Debian-install would be more fun to have found.
01:10:28 <shachaf> This might be silly reasoning. :-)
01:11:00 <shachaf> Did I mention this is a custom-written C web server that runs as root (and some CGI scripts also written in C)?
01:11:08 <kmc> is it cups
01:11:26 <shachaf> I expected that you'd find it from what I said. :-)
01:11:47 <kmc> it's not remotely accessible by default, though, is it? but I suppose an attacker can always make you visit a link to it
01:12:11 <kmc> the web server only accepts connections on localhost, or no?
01:12:44 <kmc> you should report it
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01:14:00 <shachaf> They have some XSS protection but it's broken.
01:14:51 <shachaf> I've found at least three real bugs, and know of one more that I haven't managed to track down yet.
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01:16:54 <shachaf> Hmm, https://cups.org/ has an invalid certificate.
01:19:05 <shachaf> CUPS is an Apple thing, right?
01:21:00 <pikhq> They bought it, yes.
01:24:07 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/postxss/ ?
02:13:04 <Phantom__Hoover> i think the worst part of living on campus is the random screams piercing the night
02:31:49 <pikhq> Why, precisely, does your campus have random screams piercing the night?
02:33:36 <Sgeo> For the first time in a very long time, I have purchased a book on programming
02:40:43 <Sgeo> >.> The Joy of Clojure
02:42:43 <Bike> how's it compare to The Joy of Sex?
02:47:53 <coppro> Bike: Normally, I'd say it's quite inferior
02:47:56 <coppro> but with Sgeo, I'm unsure
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04:28:03 <pikhq> Gregor: Have you heard the news? (perhaps a bit slow, but still)
04:28:33 <pikhq> Gregor: Nov. 10. FiM. Just sayin'.
04:28:41 <Gregor> Yeah, of course I have.
04:29:15 <Gregor> See also: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4008180436991&l=9e2e2cbb5d
04:29:33 <pikhq> I did see that one.
04:29:44 <pikhq> (we *are* "friends" on Facebook)
04:29:56 <Gregor> Sure, but things tend to go unnoticed on FB *shrugs*
04:30:04 <Gregor> Can you guess what the remaining component is? ;)
04:31:06 <pikhq> I sense a distinct lack of horn?
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04:32:24 <Gregor> pikhq: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0070QMUFA/
04:32:30 <Gregor> I shall be what nightmares are made of.
04:33:52 <Gregor> It's even got blue eyes.
04:38:16 <zzo38> So, how do you make nightmares, then?
04:39:54 <Sgeo> Nightmares are made out of him. Meaning, Gregor needs to be ground up into a fine powder, and this powder is then mixed with a dream.
04:41:12 <Gregor> Bugs are boring nightmares.
04:41:15 <zzo38> O, that is how you are going to do it.
04:41:24 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you believe in leap months?
04:42:11 <zzo38> Leap months? I don't think so (although it might depend on the calendar).
04:43:11 <pikhq> I prefer the name "INTERCALARIS"
04:44:01 <pikhq> Which of course belongs between FEBRVARIVS and MARTIVS.
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04:45:23 <zzo38> O, so you want 29 Feb to be not called a day of a month, is that what you mean?
04:45:41 <shachaf> zzo38: What if there was a leap month called "Sanctuary".
04:45:50 <pikhq> No, I'm just being silly.
04:46:29 <shachaf> monqy: what if we had 13 months of 28 days each
04:47:11 <zzo38> There are also various other calendar systems, and depending how important you want seasons to line up, what features of days of week, and other things.
04:47:13 <pikhq> Why not 5 months of 73 days?
04:47:34 <zzo38> pikhq: That is the Discordian calendar is it not?
04:47:34 <shachaf> energumenoqy brings up a good point
04:48:15 <Sgeo> Is there any coherence to the current calendar
04:48:28 <Sgeo> As in, any good reason that different months are different lengths?
04:48:31 <zzo38> And then the 29 Feb will be called St.Tib's day, so not belonging to a day of week or to a month.
04:48:57 <energumeno> jung's archetiype is the key to all the abstract concepts
04:49:22 <Sgeo> `welcome energumeno
04:49:26 <zzo38> energymeno: Can you please be more specific?
04:49:33 <HackEgo> energumeno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:49:45 <zzo38> And does 11:11 phenomena have what to do with what?
04:49:56 <zzo38> Let me look it up in Wikipedia.
04:50:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: Only historical: the ancient Roman calendar had irregular months.
04:50:27 <zzo38> "Numerologists believe that events linked to the time 11:11 appear more often than can be explained by chance or coincidence." It is nonsense, as far as I am concerned.
04:50:38 <Sgeo> Why did the ancient Roman calendar have irregualr months?
04:50:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: Good question maybe Wikipedia has that too.
04:50:59 <zzo38> Possibly something to do with the moon?
04:51:00 <pikhq> Possibly because ROMVLVS said so.
04:51:02 <energumeno> the digital programming is a binary sequence
04:51:29 <Bike> i thought it was augustus and julius being arrogant, or is that an urban legend
04:52:01 <zzo38> energumeno: I do not understand what point you are trying to make, although I guess it is correct yes the digital programming is a binary sequence, in computer machine codes, whatever
04:52:12 <energumeno> frequencies are modulating something in our brains
04:52:23 <pikhq> Bike: Nah, Julius was just making a sane modification to already-extant Roman practice.
04:52:46 <pikhq> Replacing an inconsistent intercalary month with a consistent intercalary day.
04:53:10 <Bike> Huh. I didn't know that.
04:53:12 <zzo38> energumeno: Yes I think it is, frequencies are modulating something in everything, I do not understand what you are trying to make.
04:53:18 <pikhq> And changed some month lengths slightly so the year was 365 or 366 days, instead of 355 or 377 or 378 days.
04:53:26 <zzo38> No, I have not seen the 23 film.
04:53:58 <pikhq> (the length of the month Intercalaris varied slightly)
04:54:05 <Sgeo> zzo38, I have a feeling energumeno is exactly the sort of person looking for the other kind of esoteric.
04:54:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: I agree, but I try to answer question anyways.
04:54:54 <zzo38> O, yes, OK, I can see about that film on Wikipedia now.
04:56:16 <Sgeo> Let me know if the number 3 starts appearing everywhere and everyone has a sense of deja vu
04:56:54 <zzo38> "Apophenia is the experience of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data." Yes this can certainly happen. It is one way to give you ideas, certainly, even though there is not a real objective patterns. It is also synchronicity, I think?
04:57:57 <zzo38> "For example almost every culture has a savior that has come back from heaven or the dead, or reincarnation is a main point of the belief. Jesus for example in the Christian texts and also Buddhists and Hindus have reincarnation as a principal part of their religion, these being principal parts of many religions." These are things I have noticed.
04:57:57 <energumeno> zzo38 apophenia is a compulsive finding about patterns
04:58:02 <Sgeo> A book I read about more than 3 dimensions had a chapter on synchronicity, no idea why. It seemed to buy into that sort of mysterious gunk
04:58:17 <Sgeo> But other than that it was a good book
04:58:27 <zzo38> energumeno: O, yes, OK.
04:58:42 <Bike> zzo38: a life-death-rebirth deity, often linked to farming.
04:59:16 <zzo38> Sgeo: I cannot understand either, it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps a sentence or footnote about synchronicity might go, but (at least without knowing much about the book) it doesn't seem like it ought to have a chapter of it.
04:59:51 <Sgeo> Might not have been a full chapter
04:59:54 <Sgeo> I don't remember
05:02:58 <zzo38> energumeno: What refs specifically? Link some, if we don't like it we can tell you
05:04:59 <zzo38> Well, link some, I don't care. (Maybe others do, but I don't care)
05:05:13 <energumeno> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity
05:05:14 <zzo38> And then I will look if I want to.
05:05:19 <zzo38> Yes I read that already.
05:06:32 <zzo38> As far as I can understand, it refers to a subjective grouping of events rather than objective.
05:08:11 <energumeno> mmm not at all. the first lawer of shynchronicity is that phenomena isn't pre-subjetive
05:09:23 <zzo38> Well yes, subjectivity is post-phenomena, but I don't think that violates what I have said.
05:11:53 <energumeno> trouble is: how phenomena is rapping the law of space-time
05:12:45 <zzo38> Again, I do not understand you.
05:15:04 <energumeno> the bug theory (yes the same that computing) is the explanation
05:15:27 <zzo38> No, I have not seen.
05:16:40 <zzo38> I am not sure what a "bug theory" is.
05:17:37 <zzo38> Do you mean Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle?
05:22:15 <zzo38> Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle can tell how you cannot know the position and momentum precisely simultaneously.
05:23:06 <zzo38> I know some things about physics, and I like physics and mathematics.
05:23:52 <energumeno> yes, in other words I think, when a person is nearing the true, the true protects itself, the bug, the shynchronicity is the mask
05:33:31 <energumeno> I suffer this phenomena in my life continuosly
05:33:42 <kmc> life-after-death-ville
05:33:42 <energumeno> I don't understand why shynchronicitie often primes about some people
05:33:45 <zzo38> I have interests in philosophy too.
05:33:46 <zzo38> Like the welcome message says, you may have been looking for the other kind of esoteric, which is not known a lot by people on this channel. Nevertheless, we can and do discuss a variety of things in this channel, including things like that possibly.
05:33:48 <zzo38> I am mainly interested in mathematics, physics, computer programming, etc but I know some things about various other topics as well: astrology, religion, linguistics, various others too a few things. I also play Dungeons&Dragons game.
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05:34:06 <zzo38> energumeno: Probably just because you notice it, I guess.
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05:37:37 <zzo38> Of course I don't know for sure; I just guess.
05:39:20 <zzo38> There are various phenomena that are not yet known. The same applies to mathematics and to physics, and it is even proven.
05:42:43 <energumeno> why people separate mathematics and physics?
05:43:20 <pikhq> Well, math covers a *lot* more than merely physics for one.
05:44:37 <pikhq> That's not the sum total *of* math, but that is one of its use cases, yes.
05:45:30 <kmc> A button to touch, a dial to turn, a key to hold
05:47:10 <zzo38> Yes, math is used for a lot of things. Mathematics can also be studied for just itself too, even if the area studied is not currently being used for something else too.
05:49:13 <energumeno> so I think physics is applied mathematics simply
05:50:01 <zzo38> I think there are others who said the same.
05:52:29 <energumeno> some physicists would want to kill me... jajaja
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06:03:28 <pikhq> energumeno: Physics is one instance of applied mathematics, indeed.
06:03:28 <pikhq> Computing is another instance.
06:03:34 <kmc> to infinity and beyond
06:03:34 <kmc> shachaf: how do you feel about x["t"] === x.t
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06:03:34 <energumeno> ok, returning to coincidences' phenomena, i think the key is the "kaos theory" or how microscopical physics is influencing "over" macroscopic physics
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06:03:34 <energumeno> how collective thinking is influencing "over" random
06:03:35 <energumeno> http://www.buryl.com/Collective_thought.htm
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06:06:30 <energumeno> yes ok, but a instance is a materialized abstraction
06:07:43 <energumeno> so instance is not appropiated for this
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06:09:45 <energumeno> i would say physics or computing are interfaces of mathematics...
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16:26:09 <kmc> wow they are shutting down the new york city subway for this storm
16:26:29 <kmc> the subway almost never shuts down
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16:29:27 <elliott> fizzie: You know things about mod files, right?
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16:39:06 <fizzie> I don't know about that. I had to learn quite a bit about the .it format when writing that one player, and I've dabbled a bit with some of the others.
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16:55:20 <elliott> fizzie: I was wondering if you could, like, recommend a player. For Linux.
16:55:45 <atriq> I really need to update Phantom_Hoover's tumblr at some point
16:56:01 <fizzie> I'd like to know a good player myself. I used to like Cubic Player on DOS, but opencubicplayer has underwhelmed. Lately I've just been using xmp.
16:57:18 <elliott> fizzie: I just used this XMPlay thing in Wine. (It was for a purpose.) (It was awful.)
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17:23:38 <coppro> kmc: yeah, I'm annoyed by this storm and I live several hundred k inland
17:23:55 <coppro> going to pull out my winter jacket tomorrow
17:24:30 <elliott> kmc: What's a good language?
17:32:51 <ion> Jim Florentine – Terrorizing Telemarketers 2 – Broken Record http://open.spotify.com/track/1FwqzJruXtMzcvQ0rRBH0v
17:33:24 <kmc> elliott: hungarian
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17:59:41 <kmc> you should make a programming language called "what"
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18:02:33 <elliott> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2083649206/the-d-programming-language-conference-2013-0 i am shocked that there is $15k worth of care for D in the world
18:02:35 <elliott> Deewiant: how much did you donate :P
18:03:22 <Phantom__Hoover> "The D community is a meritocracy comprising talented, ambitious, and opinionated hackers."
18:03:36 <kmc> hahahahaha
18:03:51 <kmc> i love open source "meritocracies"
18:03:56 <kmc> aka shouting matches
18:03:56 <fizzie> It's just the regular sort of cracy.
18:04:01 <elliott> that means we hand out commit bits pseudo-randomly
18:04:14 <elliott> and can shun people without having to justify it
18:04:21 <kmc> in a meritocracy you show your merit by being a huge asshole to everyone, especially on mailing lists
18:04:31 <kmc> if they put up with you, it means your code is good
18:05:06 <kmc> everyone who leaves because the community is full of assholes had no merit anyway
18:05:17 <kmc> (nb: I have no idea what the D community specifically is like)
18:05:53 <kmc> other than that it seems to be 100% white men, from that picture
18:06:04 <fizzie> All the KRYPTONITE SPONSORSHIP levels of the kickstarte are sold. :/
18:06:12 <copumpkin> the word meritocracy was apparently coined sarcastically
18:06:54 <coppro> pikhq: aren't you in range too?
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18:07:30 <elliott> kmc: i think the D community is fairly good as far as language communities go
18:07:47 <elliott> like walter bright is a smart guy
18:07:51 <elliott> unfortunately their toolchain is shiiiiiiiiiiiiit
18:08:04 <elliott> so the barrier to entry is being able to figure out how the fuck to compile D code
18:08:10 <kmc> copumpkin: heh
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18:09:16 <copumpkin> I think the article in question had similar objections to yours, but I don't remember
18:11:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "KRYPTONITE SPONSORSHIP. Because indeed D gives superhuman abilities!"
18:12:06 <kmc> makes bike locks
18:12:28 <fizzie> It does an incredible variety of things, depending on color.
18:14:10 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptonite#Variations lists 18 variations, many with more than one supposed effect.
18:14:13 <elliott> there has to be some kind of opposite superman that feeds on krypton
18:14:38 <elliott> "In post-Crisis continuity, Mister Mxyzptlk creates what he calls red kryptonite in the "Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite" story arc"
18:14:43 <elliott> that's the stupidest fucking arc name ever
18:14:58 <elliott> "Blue kryptonite is the Bizarro analogue to green kryptonite. Using Bizarro logic, this, in general, hurts Bizarros while having beneficial effects on ordinary Kryptonians."
18:15:20 <fizzie> The regular green one either gives you (a regular human) cancer, or superpowers.
18:15:20 <pikhq> coppro: In range of what?
18:15:36 <elliott> fizzie: What odds are we talking here?
18:15:39 <elliott> 50% cancer, 50% superpower?
18:15:49 <kmc> what if you already have cancer
18:16:04 <fizzie> I think it depends on where you're from, or something. But I'm no expert.
18:16:07 <pikhq> I'm merely in a cold area, but it's usually cold this time of year! I am evolved to meet the demands!
18:16:16 <zzo38> Can it mean both together or is exclusive?
18:16:32 <kmc> what if it gives you cancer, but also gives you the superpower that you're immune to cancer
18:16:32 <elliott> cancer is not a very good superpower
18:17:40 <zzo38> I don't think you can possibly make kryptonite if krypton is a noble gas.
18:18:25 <pikhq> Krypton can form bonds.
18:18:47 <elliott> guys does nvidia's propeirteirtiertary linux driver support kms
18:18:52 <fizzie> zzo38: Kryptonite is not made out of krypton.
18:19:17 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: seriously?
18:19:27 <fizzie> zzo38: It's an alloy of "15.08% plutonium, 18.06% tantalum, 27.71% xenon, 24.02% promethium, 10.62% dialium, 3.94% mercury, and 0.57% of an unknown substance."
18:19:45 <elliott> pikhq: what about the open-source ones (are any of them good)
18:19:46 <pikhq> Intel is the only company for which the *official* drivers support KMS.
18:19:49 <nortti> fizzie: where did you get that?
18:20:07 <zzo38> Then "kryptonite" is not a very good name for it.
18:20:07 <pikhq> For ATI, the open source drivers work decently. Lower 3D performance, but higher everything else performance.
18:20:14 <fizzie> nortti: The same Wikipedia page where the variants come from.
18:20:15 <pikhq> Can't tell you about Nouveau.
18:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> so it's made out of one thing that doesn't exist, a noble gas, and an element with a half-life of at most 17 years
18:20:31 <elliott> pikhq: How much lower 3D performance are we talking here?
18:21:00 <zzo38> pikhq: O, so if you don't want 3D then you ought to use open source drivers. Is that it?
18:21:13 <fizzie> zzo38: It's related to the *planet* Krypton, not the element krypton. I think.
18:21:20 <pikhq> elliott: Maybe a little lower framerate? I've gotten shitty performance for both on my GPU, so.
18:21:55 <nortti> has anyone suggested the theory that superman doesn't actually lose his powers but rather all of it goes to repairing cancer cells?
18:22:06 <zzo38> fizzie: Still that doesn't seem to make it a very good name for it.
18:25:40 <Phantom_Hoover> so has anyone heard about a massive leather surplus in australia around the turn of the millennium
18:25:57 <Phantom_Hoover> it seems to be the only rational explanation for farscape's costumes
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18:48:45 <coppro> pikhq: the oncoming storm
18:54:12 <pikhq> Colorado is pretty damned far from the east coast.
18:54:31 <coppro> for some reason I thought you were near Michigan
18:54:57 <coppro> the storm warnings say to have 3 days of supplies... I hope that doesn't become necessar
18:55:15 <coppro> I think I will try to hole up in the university rather than my house if bad things happen
18:55:19 <kmc> where are you?
18:55:23 <coppro> (though that seems unlikely)
18:56:29 <elliott> coppro: i read that as waterloo, waterloo
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19:26:24 <kmc> shachaf: Apparently Stripe is unlikely to run the "misuse of crypto" CTF
19:26:28 <kmc> but we should do it!
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19:55:58 <kmc> the spot where i used to live in NYC is under mandatory evacuation
19:56:23 <zzo38> I need to figure out a good plan to progress in this Dungeons&Dragons game; I need to trap the chancellor and rescue the king. I have some ideas, such as somehow telling the chancellor something by psychic communication (I don't know what to say), to try scrying the chancellor and/or king if possible, I have a few other ideas too but I don't konw all else.
19:57:29 <zzo38> I do have other idea what to do afterward, whether interrogation, anti-magic, to even modify my own memory, make fake plans, various ways to trick anyone trying to figure us out.
19:57:40 <zzo38> And then finally we can kill the demon.
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20:00:54 <zzo38> Do you have any better ideas?
20:01:08 <nortti> today I learned: mandrake is a hallusiogenic plant
20:01:15 <zzo38> Perhaps it would help to know some more things about the chancellor and about the king.
20:02:06 <zzo38> nortti: Now you know!
20:02:32 <nortti> it makes me wonder why was mandrake linux named mandrake linux
20:05:01 <zzo38> I don't know either. Maybe Wikipedia will tell you why?
20:06:34 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:08:17 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to say. I don't see a link tell you why, either.
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20:39:22 <shachaf> kmc: Is this based on new information?
20:41:02 <shachaf> 12:26 <kmc> shachaf: Apparently Stripe is unlikely to run the "misuse of crypto" CTF
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20:49:21 <shachaf> kmc: So a "lens" is just a mapM over some arbitrary structure.
20:49:49 <shachaf> If you want to modify you use Identity. If you want to read you use something like Writer to sneak the values out.
20:50:35 <shachaf> It's pretty nifty the way it all works out.
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20:54:44 <kmc> shachaf: someone told me this recently, i think it was nelson but it might have been you
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20:56:28 <shachaf> I don't think I phrased it that way before?
20:57:00 <shachaf> Anyway, it's actually Applicative-style Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
20:57:09 <kmc> yeah i think it was nelson
20:57:22 <shachaf> If you restrict it to Functor instead of Applicative, you get an actual lens.
20:57:47 <kmc> shachaf: that's cool
20:57:55 <Sgeo> I have no idea if moving to HexChat was worth it
20:57:58 <shachaf> Because Monoid m => Applicative (Writer m)
20:58:08 <shachaf> Which lets it return zero-or-more values.
20:58:19 <shachaf> Whereas the Functor instance lets it return exactly one value.
20:58:31 <shachaf> It's pretty nifty how it all works out.
20:59:17 <shachaf> (It's actually using Const instead of Writer.)
20:59:37 <shachaf> If you restrict f to Identity or Const, you get read-only or write-only versions.
20:59:40 <kmc> Sgeo: what is it?
20:59:47 <kmc> ok, i can google that
21:00:08 <shachaf> kmc: HexChat is a program that lets you talk to people in Hexham.
21:00:37 <shachaf> I apt-get upgraded chromium and now libpdf.so won't work. :-(
21:00:48 <kmc> shachaf: ah, that makes so much sense
21:01:14 <Sgeo> It's rebranded and new direction for XChat-WDK I think
21:01:30 <Sgeo> And considers itself to be a successor to X-Chat
21:03:18 <Sgeo> ....o...k..... http://www.hexchat.org/home/fakes
21:03:31 * Sgeo is now wondering if he should walk away slowly
21:03:59 <ais523> if I wrote a blog post about monads in brainfuck, do you think it'd get massively upvoted on proggit?
21:04:08 <ais523> I probably can't be bothered to either way, btw
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21:07:18 <kmc> ais523: i've lost track of where proggit is in the haskell infatuation / haskell backlash cycle
21:07:51 <kmc> i'm not sure what 'monads in brainfuck' would mean at all
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21:08:06 <kmc> unless it means 'monads in a functional language i've implemented on top of brainfuck'
21:08:16 <kmc> and by "functional" i mean the old definition of "has functions" ;P
21:11:24 <coppro> fun assignment: run the simplex method by hand
21:11:31 <coppro> nothing can go wrong right?
21:11:42 <zzo38> Perhaps if you are going to have monads in brainfuck, first you need a category, so that you can have monads.
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21:20:46 <ais523> kmc: nah, you can map the general concept onto BF
21:21:33 <ais523> you just have to evaluate the higher-order functions by hand
21:22:12 <ais523> it's basically things like replacing all < and > by << and >> in order to use the cells in between as working space
21:22:25 <ais523> it's the same sort of idea
21:22:36 <ais523> zzo38: categories generally aren't hard to find
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21:32:12 <kmc> i don't get it
21:32:14 <kmc> can you elaborate?
21:32:35 <kmc> are you saying that "replace < with << and then use the space inbetween somehow" is an example of a monad in BF?
21:35:53 <Arc_Koen> by replacing > with >> you have DOUBLED the infinity... that has to boost one's self-confidence!
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21:37:13 <kmc> that kind of thing is also very common in computability theory proofs
21:37:19 <kmc> so it would be interesting if there was a connection to monads there
21:38:21 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: hey if you feel like writing an article in your/Taneb's tumblr... http://esolangs.org/wiki/CubeCode
21:39:22 <Arc_Koen> brainfuck with FBUDLR instead of ><+-., AND NO LOOPS
21:39:45 <Sgeo> It took two people to make it.
21:39:50 <Sgeo> I think that's the saddest thing of all
21:40:17 <Bike> how many brainfuck derivatives are there? as a power of two. possibly using knuth arrows
21:41:04 <kmc> the example program is pretty great though
21:41:07 <kmc> uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurf
21:42:01 <kmc> Arc_Koen: when you said that I thought that maybe it's programmed or visualized in some kind of 3D graphical way and that might be a bit novel
21:42:07 <kmc> it's just uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurf
21:42:18 <Sgeo> It's at least number_of_unicode_codepoints P 8, I think?
21:42:49 <zzo38> I don't think it even has to be Unicode, though
21:42:49 <kmc> somebody had a hack that would record the registers of a program as it runs and make this into sound
21:42:52 <Arc_Koen> yeah, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurf pretty much sums it all
21:43:01 <kmc> or is that something i just thought of and then forgot to do and then forgot who invented it
21:43:25 <kmc> i have definitely seen work regarding the actual noise produced by CPUs and what you can infer from it
21:43:50 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, as in, number_of_unicode_codepoints! / (number_of_unicode_codepoints - 8)!
21:44:03 <Bike> get the cubecode people to make a language such that the execution always sounds like "urf"
21:44:07 <zzo38> I have sometimes put a calculator near a radio receiver to make noise
21:44:32 <Bike> Sgeo: i thought that was usually denoted binomial[number_of_underscores, 8] in linear text
21:44:47 <Sgeo> Bike, I have no idea how to denote stuff in linear text
21:45:13 <Bike> how bothersome
21:48:07 <guest_81723> I just found about BFJoust, by changing [a]b for ([a{}]b)%-1 you never reach a ], so there's no looping involved and you could thus play it yourself instead of having to program a complete AI
22:00:19 <elliott> guest_81723: i don't understand
22:02:47 <guest_81723> you can avoid any looping on that game, thus changing [] from "while" to "if...else", thus making you able to play it yourself while the game is going
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22:08:43 <rapido> has 'exponential' computation like hash-life been explored yet?
22:09:02 <Bike> exponential how?
22:10:39 <Sgeo> What's a good screenshotting tool for Windows?
22:10:48 <rapido> Superspeed - going faster in time - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashlife
22:10:59 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: infix alphanumeric operators, what is this, Perl?
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22:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm sure there's some precise complexity theoretic approach to it, but hashlife can only superspeed a pattern if it's highly ordered
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22:12:17 <rapido> sure - i understand that you need highly ordered structures
22:12:35 <rapido> but i feel it can be generalized
22:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> most other computational systems don't have the overhead life does
22:13:32 <Phantom_Hoover> languages virtually never do, and when they do it's called optimisation
22:14:39 <rapido> anyway, i've created a data structure that exploits highly ordered patterns
22:15:03 <Bike> don't suppose you're aware of computational complexity theory
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22:15:16 <rapido> Bike: why do you think that
22:15:57 <Bike> wait, got the name wrong. kolmogorov and so on.
22:16:00 <Arc_Koen> there this mystical temple in the jungle
22:17:01 <Arc_Koen> when you get near the door, a deep, hollow voice would say "ARE YOU AWARE"
22:17:04 -!- barts_ has joined.
22:17:30 <rapido> ok, tell me what you think of this.
22:17:33 <rapido> The Uniquely Represented Two-Way Immutable Sorted Multimap
22:18:02 <Arc_Koen> you could call that structure "the wise turtle"
22:18:03 <rapido> which also happens to be con fluently persistent
22:18:15 <rapido> i call it the Spread data structure
22:18:20 <Arc_Koen> because its acronym is "TURTWISM" and that sound like "TURTLE-WISDOM"
22:18:47 <rapido> Spread: the best thing since sliced bread
22:19:09 <Arc_Koen> also "uniquely represented" doesn't tell me much about what it is
22:19:40 <Arc_Koen> "Sorted"... well, your regular list/array/tree could be sorted as well
22:19:42 <rapido> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dgolovin/papers/btreap.pdf
22:20:15 <Arc_Koen> and "Two-Way Immutable"... I have actually no idea what it could mean
22:20:22 <Arc_Koen> except maybe a double-linked list or something
22:20:31 <rapido> it is actually a binary relation
22:20:50 <rapido> you know, a table with two columns
22:20:57 <Phantom_Hoover> you know it must be good because the guy's surname is eastern european
22:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i think 3 of my 4 lecturers right now are eastern european
22:21:32 <rapido> so you have a table with two columns that always has the same memory representation
22:21:47 <rapido> but can be changed to create new versions
22:22:04 <rapido> and it can embed the same structure recursively
22:22:47 <rapido> i believe it the most general data structure which subsumes all other structures (graphs even)
22:23:22 <rapido> i'm planning to run a higher-order spreadsheet implementation on top of it
22:23:45 <rapido> maximally reusing computations - hence the reference to hashlife
22:24:02 * Arc_Koen is so not aware of what a b-treap is
22:24:29 <Arc_Koen> so basically it's some kind of binary tree but with several values in each node?
22:24:42 <rapido> yes, like an ordinary b-tree
22:25:21 <rapido> a treap is a randomised data structure
22:26:08 <rapido> but if you do consistent hashing it folds into a unique representation
22:26:27 <rapido> a binary relation is pretty fundamental
22:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> at best it'd be so pointlessly general as to have no meaningful 'structure'
22:26:58 <rapido> oh, that's good - i like that 'at best it'd be so pointlessly general as to have no meaningful 'structure'
22:27:42 <rapido> a function is a special binary relation
22:27:44 <Arc_Koen> Phantom_Hoover: I have 'the world'
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22:28:25 <rapido> there is a whole zoo of special binary relations, which have certain special properties.
22:29:00 <Arc_Koen> how general can you want it? or is it like in stargate - "What is this place?" "A confinement room in the infirmary." "Can you be less specific?" "Fine. We're on a planet called Earth."
22:30:14 <olsner> hmm, the latter answer, while (I suppose) less precise, has more useful information for the otherworldly visitor
22:30:54 <olsner> what really bothers me is this though: why aren't all planets named Earth?
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22:31:37 <Arc_Koen> well in stargate every planet but earth and the first other one they discovered has a name like "P3X986"
22:32:03 <olsner> those are most likely not the native names
22:32:39 <Arc_Koen> well it's a close translation :p
22:33:30 <Arc_Koen> interestingly, people from other planets usually talk "a dialect that resembles ancient mesopotamian/chinese/whatever but is in fact exactly like english"
22:34:10 <olsner> hmm, so we're the odd planet then? what a plot twist
22:34:44 <Arc_Koen> yeah, we're the only planet where not everyone speaks english
22:36:42 <pikhq> Arc_Koen: IIRC those are systematic names derived from the Stargate address.
22:36:51 <pikhq> I will not excuse everything else.
22:37:39 <Arc_Koen> pikhq: yeah I figured so. though I wonder how they can derive 5-digits names from addresses that are 7-symbols long (and there are more than 20 symbols I think)
22:37:54 <Phantom__Hoover> then when the aliens invade we're the only ones who can keep track of where they actually invaded
22:38:16 <Arc_Koen> well other planets are usually no more than one village wide
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22:38:37 <Phantom__Hoover> hmm, the aliens might have trouble invading such a small target
22:40:12 <pikhq> Arc_Koen: There's also the two letters.
22:40:37 <Arc_Koen> and we have one advantage: the aliens can live for millenia, and thus appear to be very slow at adapting (for instance they still go to war with heavy bodysuits that are completely useless against our "projectile weapons" (actually they are also completely useless against their own "energy weapons")
22:40:47 <Arc_Koen> pikhq: well I'm pretty sure the P stands for "planet"
22:41:30 <Arc_Koen> (they did send a stargate inside of a star once, though)
22:42:20 <Arc_Koen> "What's wrong?" "Nothing, sir. It's just I've never blown up a star before." "... Well. You know what they say. The first one is always the toughest!"
22:42:55 <Arc_Koen> they let go of a stargate inside of it
22:43:18 <Arc_Koen> and I think the stargate was opened on something dangerous
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22:43:30 <Sgeo> I should probably fill a pot with water or something
22:44:21 -!- rapido has joined.
22:44:33 <Phantom__Hoover> or did sgeo just inexplicably say he should fill a pot with water
22:44:42 <Arc_Koen> I had four full drinks of coffee today and yet at 9pm I was already very tired
22:44:44 <olsner> blow up stars => fill pots with water
22:45:06 <Arc_Koen> you know in case the star dehydrates you or something
22:45:28 <olsner> I hear they're quite toasty
22:45:45 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, hurricane
22:45:48 <Phantom__Hoover> wasn't there a stargate that lead into a black hole or something
22:46:07 <Phantom__Hoover> Sgeo, yes i'm sure a single pot of water will save you from dehydration
22:46:16 <Arc_Koen> caused time to slow down a lot
22:46:53 <Sgeo> I don't particularly have many pots
22:47:08 <Arc_Koen> like, "OK I'll go talk to the president and will be back in 17 hours. Hey I'm back!" "It's... been 5 minutes, sir." "But I just spent the whole day in the pentagon!"
22:47:16 <Bike> didn't they do that twice, even
22:47:43 <Arc_Koen> the second time had to be on purpose then
22:49:49 <Phantom__Hoover> time would only slow if the gravity was coming through the stargate too
22:50:03 <Phantom__Hoover> in which case they... would realise something was up rather sooner than that
22:50:55 <Arc_Koen> yeah it's never been clear what could go through the stargate and what couldn't
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22:51:35 <Arc_Koen> so far we only know that men can travel one way (depending on what side dialed to the other), and radio waves can travel both ways
22:53:31 <Arc_Koen> that usually causes at least one man from the other world to make advances, but that aside they should be ok
22:55:24 <Arc_Koen> "You're a very attractive woman." "Yeah, let's just fix your ship's unknown original engine with our McGyver-sponsored nuclear reactor, shall we?" is a plot that comes up every other episode
22:56:45 <Arc_Koen> though the whole point of the stargate seems to be that when someone dials your planet they can invade and there's nothing you can do to stop them because it only works one way
22:59:25 <olsner> well, you can put up that wafer-thin metal iris thingy
23:00:51 <Arc_Koen> yeah they invented that two days after the first time they were invaded
23:01:13 <Arc_Koen> the aliens on the other hand have been using gates for millenia and never thought of that
23:01:51 <Arc_Koen> except in that one episode where they discover *one* planet where the aliens had protected the gate using a forcefield (but it never occurred to the aliens to reproduce that on other planets as well)
23:02:58 <olsner> for some reason I seem to have forgotten most of these episodes
23:05:32 <Arc_Koen> that's because there was no time-travel in those!
23:09:59 <Phantom__Hoover> so wait, do they just invade by marching right through the gate
23:13:57 <olsner> yeah, and do the shiny eyes thing
23:14:36 <Phantom__Hoover> did nobody think to, like, put some sawblades or spikes or some other elaborate deathtrap in front of it
23:15:42 <olsner> of course not, the gates were originally put up by the good guys, no reason to fear them
23:15:43 <Arc_Koen> well sometimes they do try sending nuclear-ish "rays" trough the stargate
23:15:52 <Sgeo> Well, the goa'uld do have ships that they can use to attack any planet that tries to defend their gate
23:16:26 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: wait, that planet where they discovered Thor for the first time did have an automated weapon aimed at the gate
23:16:50 <Arc_Koen> somehow the goa'uld just figured "we shouldn't go to that planet" and never tried attacking it with a ship
23:16:52 <Bike> the first season finale was about fighting off the goa-uld ship, right?
23:17:10 <Arc_Koen> actually most season finales are about fighting off goa'uld ships
23:17:19 <Bike> they were pretty big.
23:17:36 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: the earth gate had a thingie in front of it that could stop anybody from coming.
23:17:56 <Arc_Koen> it's like, at the end of every season, one goa'uld remembers he actually owns a whole fleet of ships (every one of which could, alone, destroy the earth) and decides to attack
23:18:13 <Phantom__Hoover> why didn't the gould just show up in their big ship and be like "right turn that off or we glass belgium"
23:18:36 <Bike> they did, like a billion times, but the earthanoids fought 'em off with their protagonist powers
23:19:15 <Phantom__Hoover> there's something about this all that's so dumb i can't even get my head around it enough to mock
23:19:22 <olsner> I guess it takes one season for a goauld to figure that idea out, then they get killed with magic season finale plot powers, and some goauld newbie rises to power and uses the next season to do the same thing
23:19:59 <Arc_Koen> it's kind of a dangerous way to fight a war
23:20:03 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, some sort of "treaty" I think?
23:20:18 <Arc_Koen> the "treaty" was a joke, really
23:20:22 <Bike> actually wasn't belgium specifically threatened, I think I remember that
23:20:46 <Sgeo> Arc_Koen, I thought only in that the Asgard tried to make it look like they would be able to fight, but couldn't
23:20:50 <Arc_Koen> yeah icing belgium rings a bell
23:21:16 <Sgeo> It's been a while
23:21:23 <Arc_Koen> Sgeo: that, and also the goa'uld were basically like "ok, we won't attack you... unless it's a season final"
23:22:16 <Arc_Koen> I mean the simple fact that the asgard would respect the treaty and not just wipe the goa'uld out was kind of admitting they couldn't actually fight
23:23:07 <olsner> to be fair, they might just not want to kill people
23:23:46 <Arc_Koen> yeah the last very-very-advanced people to have such a policy was wiped out
23:23:55 <olsner> yes, they look like small grey roswell creatures
23:24:15 <Arc_Koen> Phantom__Hoover: well you didn't expect the whole galaxy to be filled only with mesopotamians and chinese people did you?
23:24:26 <Arc_Koen> (actually the asgard are not from the same galaxy...)
23:25:43 <Phantom__Hoover> wait were the genocidal precursors who got wiped out called the ancients by any chance
23:26:06 <Bike> you sure you haven't seen this show
23:26:33 <Arc_Koen> one day the earth people discovered there was an eighth button on the stargate's keyboard, that somehow they had manage to not see all this time
23:26:55 <zzo38> What does that do, explode the keyboard?
23:27:07 <olsner> there are lots of buttons, 20-30 ish, it's just the length of the code that is normally 7 but can be 8
23:27:16 <Bike> they're all ripoffs of each other
23:27:28 <Phantom__Hoover> nobody had up to that point thought of pressing 8 buttons in sequence rather than 7
23:28:00 <Arc_Koen> well, yes, there are 20-30 buttons on the dial-thingy, but the "lenght of the code" is represented as seven "chevrons" on the stargate
23:28:21 <olsner> Phantom__Hoover: sure, but the "chevrons" don't "lock" unless you juice up the gate with a "zero point module"
23:28:25 <zzo38> I thought if you do that it would just execute the first seven and then use the last key as the first of another sequence of seven?
23:28:58 <Arc_Koen> well they actually hooked their own computers to the gate so you can define it to do anything you want
23:29:15 <Arc_Koen> (because the keyboard was missing)
23:30:09 <Arc_Koen> (when they're stranded on a random planet with no keyboard, they usually don't have computers, so they instead hook up the nuclear reactor they happened to have in their backpack
23:31:08 <Bike> well for what it's worth, the ancients aren't actually all dead, some of them are ghost angels
23:31:16 <olsner> istr their stargate hacking skills are very plot dependent
23:31:32 <Arc_Koen> also the ancients "are still there somewhere, but have a policy not to interfere in all the wars going on because interfering would be morally reprehensible" (even though there would be no war at all if they hadn't built the gates in the first place)
23:31:56 <coppro> when did this turn into a stargate discussion
23:33:02 <Arc_Koen> I believe we were talking about wise turtles climbing binary trees and then all of a sudden there was a stargate in the conversation
23:34:32 <coppro> there's not enough innuendo in this discussion
23:34:37 <olsner> we were talking about generality, and then planet naming conventions and then ...
23:35:10 <Arc_Koen> oh hey we had the giving-birth class today
23:35:19 <coppro> also for the record the goauld did attack the planet with the defense thing in front of the stargate
23:35:20 <Arc_Koen> unfortunately there was no practice for that class
23:35:42 <coppro> according to the plot it was because the defense thing was blowed up by the protagonists
23:35:44 <Arc_Koen> coppro: the defense thing and the planet had been there for several thousand years
23:36:08 <coppro> they never mention how the goauld figured this out though
23:36:44 <Arc_Koen> maybe there was a spy in the viking people?
23:36:53 <coppro> it's ok, it still makes more sense than the entire premise of universe
23:37:02 <coppro> except for the part where destiny refuels by diving into a star
23:37:28 <Arc_Koen> I tried watching an episode from stargate universe
23:37:32 <coppro> in universe, they decide that they already spawned one spinoff using the 8th chevron
23:37:46 <coppro> but stargates are nonagonal, so clearly there was room for another spinoff
23:38:02 <coppro> but dialing nine chevrons is hard, so they had to get a high school kid to do it
23:38:04 <Arc_Koen> seriously? I never really took a close look at the stargate
23:38:11 <coppro> and with little training he realized the trick
23:38:18 <coppro> to dial the ninth chevron you have to use a button that isn't on the stargate
23:38:26 <Arc_Koen> he just hooked up his pocket nuclear reacotr, didn't he
23:38:41 <coppro> no see every stargate has a unique origin symbol
23:38:52 <coppro> in order to dial to destiny you needed to not use that stargate's origin symbol
23:38:55 <coppro> instead you had to use earth's
23:39:05 <coppro> the logic being that you had to be dialing from earth
23:39:15 <coppro> of course, the earth stargate isn't the original stargate anyhow
23:39:32 <Arc_Koen> I think they destroyed the original stargate once or twice
23:39:36 <coppro> except during seasons four through six, when it was actually the antartic original stargate
23:39:56 <olsner> you've obviously been thinking way too much about this
23:39:57 <coppro> but it still had the same origin symbol because redoing the prop would have been expensive and the unique symbol on the stargate was kind of a symbol of the show
23:40:29 <coppro> Phantom__Hoover: because it makes for good deus ex machina
23:40:42 <Bike> because it's weird and empty (supposedly!!)
23:40:45 <FreeFull> Because everything is under a huge chunk of ice
23:40:52 <FreeFull> Giving a good excuse to why we haven't found it
23:40:53 <Arc_Koen> oh, yeah, that woman who happened to be more than 65 million years old was in the antarctic as well
23:41:01 <FreeFull> Same reason something would be on the moon, or on mars
23:42:05 <Arc_Koen> "but there were supposedly no humans 65 million years ago!" "yeah, and she can't have been brought back through time travel, because it is well-known that time-travel isn't possible"
23:42:27 <Arc_Koen> (even though *we* did do it once or twice during the holidays)
23:42:52 <olsner> you can't have people running around doing time travel outside the time travel episodes
23:43:57 <coppro> also the best line in the entire series
23:44:02 <coppro> "it's my sidearm I swear"
23:44:05 <Sgeo> Refuse to use a time machine to save the entire galaxy, use the time machine to retrieve some power source to help boost a colony's defenses
23:44:58 <Phantom__Hoover> kind of like how the prime directive only applies if disobeying it would save billions
23:45:22 <olsner> it somehow makes sense though, use time travel to change a major event and Bad Things happen to the space-time continuum, use it to save a handful of people and nothing significant will change
23:45:23 <coppro> Sgeo: also to prevent an entire expedition from dying
23:45:38 <coppro> changes to the timeline after the part where you go back in time are okay too
23:45:50 <Arc_Koen> so you're saying the space-time continuum is somewhat elastic
23:46:03 <coppro> also completely nonsensical stable time loops are also permitted
23:46:21 <coppro> when time travel doesn't work like that any other time
23:46:34 <Arc_Koen> they got to play golf in the stargate
23:46:44 <coppro> but I wasn't talking about that
23:46:48 <coppro> I mean in the time travel episodes
23:46:54 <coppro> where time does the many worlds thing
23:47:05 <coppro> except where it's needed to provide deus ex machina so that the guys can make it back through time
23:47:10 <Arc_Koen> I thought you were talking about window of opportunity
23:47:12 <Sgeo> 2010/2001 uses a different model of time travel from 1969
23:47:40 <coppro> not to mention Unending, Morpheus, the Atlantis one, and the movie
23:47:54 <Arc_Koen> is morpheus the one where cody has dreams
23:48:03 <coppro> no it's the one where they go back in time to get the ZPM
23:48:11 <Sgeo> coppro, Mobius
23:48:44 <coppro> near the end of season 8
23:48:48 <Sgeo> Mentioned in SG-1 a few times, more prominent in Atlantis
23:48:51 <Arc_Koen> oh, i'm only in the middle of season 7
23:49:02 <coppro> zpms first show up in the season 7 finale
23:49:13 <Arc_Koen> well then I'd rather not read too much about it
23:49:15 <coppro> which is fucking fantastic and why aren't you watching your way through the rest of the season
23:49:24 <Phantom__Hoover> hmm, wasn't stargate the one that got farscape's actors after it was cancelled as a final "fuck you it's not coming back"
23:49:39 <coppro> also watch season 8 in lockstep with atlantis season 1
23:49:44 <coppro> then watch the rest of atlantis
23:50:05 <Arc_Koen> I didn't understand anything from universe
23:50:14 <coppro> then watch season 1 of universe
23:50:21 <olsner> I failed to do the lockstep thing, it's much too much work to figure out what the proper viewing order is
23:50:24 <Arc_Koen> they were is some kind of ship, somewhere, sometime
23:50:30 <Sgeo> coppro, I thought season 2 was considered to be better
23:50:38 <Sgeo> Although season 1's Time was good
23:50:47 <coppro> time was one of the best stargate episodes of all series
23:50:50 <Arc_Koen> and they arrived in a planet and they said "hey this is a thousand year old" and then "wait the history books are talking about us"
23:50:55 <coppro> air was really good too
23:51:23 <Sgeo> I used to use the music from Air to help me concentrate on homework
23:51:35 <Arc_Koen> anyway I'll watch a couple episodes now, see you later
23:51:40 <Phantom__Hoover> i recall elliott saying universe is the voyager of stargate
23:51:46 <coppro> it's a shame that seasons 9 and 10 are full of random shit because they have some really good episodes
23:52:03 <coppro> like beachead and the pegasus project and unending
23:52:04 <olsner> hmm, and atlantis might be the DS9
23:52:16 <Sgeo> I have yet to finish DS9
23:52:23 <coppro> honestly I think universe is more like the enterprise
23:52:33 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: i enjoyed watching universe but i also enjoy watching voyager
23:52:39 <elliott> wtf how is sgu still going
23:52:42 <coppro> although I suppose that it is closer to sg-1 seasons 9 and 10
23:52:44 <Sgeo> elliott, it's not
23:52:51 <coppro> elliott: it was killed one season late
23:52:53 <Sgeo> The series finale was a cliffhanger
23:52:55 <elliott> but how did it get two seasons
23:53:01 <elliott> i thought everyone had universally decided it was awful
23:53:08 <coppro> I like the first half season
23:53:15 <Sgeo> elliott, I liked it
23:53:19 <coppro> it started really sucking when they tried too hard to bring earth into it
23:53:30 <coppro> and then the lucian alliance was this big fuckyou to anyone who wanted anything interesting out of it
23:53:36 <coppro> and then the random aliens
23:53:40 <olsner> I think SGU survived only on the hope that it might eventually stop sucking
23:53:53 <coppro> the first half of season 1 didn't have all that random baggage
23:53:55 <Sgeo> And by the time it stopped sucking, it was cancelled
23:54:02 <coppro> and was just 'ohfuckhowdowesurvive' and was sweet
23:54:21 <coppro> did it actually stop sucking near the end?
23:54:41 <Sgeo> Uh, I'm not the best on matters of taste
23:55:07 <Sgeo> It's more 'ohfuckhowdowesurvive' to a good extent, but largely the same threat over those episodes
23:55:50 <coppro> ok actually the one where rush goes all the way back to the planet in air was pretty good to
23:56:19 <Sgeo> How do I convince coppro to finish SGU
23:56:32 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, oh, and as for why I haven't finished DS9: Haven't gotten around to it yet
23:56:34 <elliott> sgu tried to capitalise way too much on ~edgy danger~
23:56:43 <elliott> which was ok for a few episodes but then it was boring
23:56:57 <coppro> Sgeo: busy rewatching sg1 at the moment
23:57:04 <coppro> also yugioh the abridged series
23:57:20 <elliott> let's talk about how no popular scifi tv series has ever lived up to ds9 instead
23:57:26 <elliott> except maybe babylon 5 but i never got around to watching that
23:57:46 <Phantom__Hoover> farscape is pretty good! although i can't make judgements between things i like
23:58:03 <olsner> Phantom__Hoover: you could just watch everything we talk about