< 1349654529 905274 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1349654739 690943 :jiella!~jiella@cs27103076.pp.htv.fi QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1349655286 989545 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349661661 799162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I forget, what do you use for AUR stuff? < 1349663106 758645 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-51.yok.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1349663284 859608 :oklopol!~oklopol@dyn58-51.yok.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1349663621 853712 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349663816 980587 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1349663820 96635 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349664641 732405 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349665492 519429 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349666003 643137 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349666108 154807 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349667114 398885 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349667176 493606 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349667485 209175 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349667926 942671 :augur!~augur@c-69-250-16-111.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349669610 945831 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What hardware description languages specify gates explicitly instead of specifying arithmetic and assignments and so on? < 1349669751 322222 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1349670688 445713 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :" If ever you are by far the best, or the most interested, student in a classroom, then you should find another classroom. " < 1349670691 379640 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1349670698 287063 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1349670716 938131 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels like it's sort of too late to start finding another classroom < 1349670722 700812 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? And also why are the improper characters? < 1349670770 805516 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: SPICE < 1349670777 787129 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are you still at that shitty university < 1349670781 571679 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also JSim, the thing used by MIT 6.004 < 1349670787 824394 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_, yes, for my last semester before I graduate. < 1349670802 204665 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do i get to gloat about how i told you so < 1349670802 875156 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which you design a RISC processor at the level of individual logic gates < 1349670811 433590 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :or would that be insensitive...... < 1349670897 679899 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's good advice for jobs as well < 1349670949 965522 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is very used to being the best in his class < 1349670966 21461 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although Intro to Drawing is giving me a major slap in the face in that area. < 1349671058 121177 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1349671234 739311 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Isn't SPICE for analog designs? What does JSim? < 1349671253 310878 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :JSim does both analog electrical and digital logical simulation < 1349671258 92044 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses SPICE-like syntax for both < 1349671301 422053 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if it is used outside of 6.004 < 1349671308 326096 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349671316 65240 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a pretty basic program but well-suited to the course < 1349671323 34512 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can any of them be compiled to make a hardware ASIC or to program a CPLD or FPGA? < 1349671345 156043 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as-is < 1349671498 76831 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not as-is, then how is it? < 1349671617 759958 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there's no fundamental reason you couldn't write a compiler from JSim language to VHDL or something < 1349671657 309012 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is probably a silly thing to do < 1349671663 428181 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can it not compile directly into the binary formats? < 1349671670 379924 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :JSim? no, i don't think so < 1349671673 258566 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't VHDL work at the gate level? < 1349671676 720604 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just a simulator for teaching purposes < 1349671718 17577 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: kinda, you specify arithmetic / logical expressions, but not how to realize them with individual gates < 1349671721 601921 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my understanding < 1349671740 117785 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask ais523 :P < 1349672285 308641 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349672374 208420 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349672608 760996 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if automatic lint/style checking can be harmful in some cases < 1349672619 785651 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :my reasoning is thus: < 1349672634 911866 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of these tools isn't that style violations are actually that important < 1349672643 291523 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that they catch cases where programmers are generally not paying attention < 1349672650 929189 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad style is just a symptom of that < 1349672692 321191 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have an automatic style check on commit, you might consider that passing the check satisfies your obligation to pay attention < 1349672704 247272 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the result is bad code which is harder to spot < 1349672760 87990 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides which, style violations are easy to notice. < 1349672795 786888 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends < 1349672854 829466 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i run such a tool on a reasonable size codebase, it usually finds a bunch of violations, and a few real bugs < 1349672911 498837 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real reason lint is useless is because it complains about the shit you don't care about and doesn't complain about the shit you do < 1349672918 365307 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm talking about tools which don't just check, like, how many spaces you indent, but will catch undefined variables in python, accidentally global things in javascript, etc < 1349672921 208083 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway kmc your argument is also an argument against compiler warnings in general < 1349672930 342225 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know whether pointing this out will change your opinion or not < 1349672995 987998 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :no because compiler warnings (and static typing and test cases) have a much higher hit ratio for finding important problems < 1349673118 911802 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a tool which finds lots of important problems, then for sure you want to run it all the time < 1349673173 722783 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with something like lint checking, maybe there's a 'false sense of security' problem, where people focus on making the lint checker's irrelevant complaints go away rather than actually reviewing their code < 1349673413 686301 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know, this is something i'm thinking about in a specific context and maybe doesn't make sense generally < 1349673784 300751 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference between clang's fanciest warnings and lint < 1349673790 964820 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :sincere question < 1349673823 263725 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think there is a fundamental difference between lint checking and compiler warnings < 1349673826 341771 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can Haskell's type checking cause a false sense of security? < 1349673843 420747 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a practical difference in the tools we use for each < 1349673843 615003 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1349673857 689630 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yeah < 1349673858 362640 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: totallyInnocentFunction = unsafeCoerce < 1349673880 808791 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a lot of thread-unsafe code on hackage < 1349673896 545717 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks to uncareful use of C bindings < 1349673915 445859 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just an example where types don't help you much < 1349673924 546442 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :also all the common partial functions like 'head' etc < 1349674019 276829 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Some programmers like to use the GCC ‘-Wall’ option, and change the code whenever it issues a warning. If you want to do this, then do. Other programmers prefer not to use ‘-Wall’, because it gives warnings for valid and legitimate code which they do not want to change. If you want to do this, then do. The compiler should be your servant, not your master.†< 1349674116 99877 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's GNU, who stick -Werror in the CFLAGS. < 1349674133 141891 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the people who like to ignore warnings will more often than not be idiot macho ninja rockstar hackers who don't have any good reason to do the weird things they do < 1349674172 527029 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: that's not a bad move if you carefully select your warnings < 1349674186 55220 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: clang has -Weverything < 1349674191 428496 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :they probably do these things based on some misunderstood C folklore from 30 years ago rather than an understanding of current systems and compilers < 1349674196 648666 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: it turns on all the warnings. all of them. < 1349674227 127019 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: binutils builds with -Wall -Werror by default. < 1349674251 915472 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I forget what's in -Wall honestly < 1349674253 529414 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a stupid flag < 1349674258 524749 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have done a lot of strange things with gcc and I almost always get it to build cleanly with -Wall, and feel that the solutions which make gcc happy are better < 1349674281 638493 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. And -Wall -Werror just adds to it. < 1349674283 181880 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "lol compiler, shut up about aliasing", no, lol programmer, learn the aliasing rules and when to use a union instead of pointer casts < 1349674307 620643 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually have it on, granted, but it's more stupid because of the name than because of the warning < 1349674317 47556 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: yeah, that should be an error really < 1349674332 561830 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know it can't be conformant and be an error, but since when has GCC cared anyway :P ) < 1349674348 258056 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointer casts aren't even conformant like that are they < 1349674367 419475 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :C compilers let you do so many things which are fundamentally nonsense yet basically stand up to casual testing < 1349674396 269288 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a good reason to pay attention to warnings < 1349674425 258062 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: they are conformant, but will likely lead to UB at runtime < 1349674456 61288 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: arguably a compiler could refuse to translate a program which is guaranteed to produce UB, but if it's only a possibility, it can't refuse < 1349674457 356250 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: There's rules governing how pointer casts may be performed. < 1349674491 572763 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, casting an arbitrary data pointer to a char pointer is *always* valid... < 1349674512 159982 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some warnings are good, some warnings I don't like and want to turn off. And, some warnings I want to be errors instead (such as converting a pointer to integer without an explicit cast), but they don't seem to have options for all warnings individually < 1349674530 37065 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And casting from a char pointer to another type might be valid. < 1349674536 466715 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: yes i know this much < 1349674546 682636 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well UB is not conformant, right < 1349674553 284403 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: clang does < 1349674562 889602 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: That's a philosophical question, really. :P < 1349674567 334399 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes, but only if it will occur. < 1349674589 485841 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: If the program won't cause UB in its execution, it must execute correctly. If it will cause UB if executed, the program can do whatever < 1349674600 15077 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it can even fail to do the things that would lead to the UB) < 1349674602 507396 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: O, well, GNU doesn't and yet some targets are only supported by GNU, such as MMIX. I wanted MMIX on LLVM as well but they don't do that. < 1349674629 389824 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so a program which adds two signed numbers is conformant if you give it two that don't overflow, but non-conformant if you give it two that overflow? < 1349674632 900121 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :(say it takes them from argv) < 1349674691 656609 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: right, and if it's run with two numbers that overflow, it doesn't even need to get that far. It could exec("nethack") instead of doing anything else. < 1349674693 183324 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: Yes. Hence why "UB = non-conformant" is a philosophical question. < 1349674731 594813 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is conformant in the sense that a conforming implementation must correctly translate it, and the result must correctly execute if it does not cause UB. < 1349674758 985908 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a TU is not conformant, a conforming implementation must issue a diagnostic, but then is free to do whatever < 1349674762 247129 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i feel there is some self-contradiction here < 1349674786 1077 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so a truly conforming implementation will warn about all extensions, except a few like pragmas where implementations are specifically allowed to define behaviour) < 1349674928 644543 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely not; determining if a TU invokes UB in C is identical to the halting oracle... < 1349674947 518681 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Not UB; that's conforming. < 1349674969 656015 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :void halts() { /* arbitrary function body that may or may not return; */; *NULL = 0; } < 1349674993 9903 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1349674995 521068 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implementation must translate that < 1349675033 983091 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if control flow will always hit the end, then the implementation, according to you, must issue a diagnostic. < 1349675047 403328 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1349675050 779448 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is to say, a conformant implementation must determine if arbitrary C halts. < 1349675059 296020 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant for something like "int * int = 3;" < 1349675101 837286 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you mean a conforming implementation must issue a diagnostic on *parse errors*? < 1349675119 47171 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what you said, you just said "if a TU is not conformant", in a context where you were saying "UB = not conformant"... < 1349675127 429487 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, UB is conformant. < 1349675134 130005 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What parse error? < 1349675135 804433 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that an implementation must translate it. < 1349675145 29808 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: A parse error or a semantic error or anything else that violates the requirements < 1349675155 984350 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. Now we're on the same page. < 1349675162 302729 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What semantic error, then? < 1349675172 188056 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's TU? < 1349675191 248696 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except, of course, that most C extensions would not be *parse* errors in C, but rather explicit UB. < 1349675200 616545 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it requires to specify what parse error, instead of just if it is error or not? < 1349675200 837846 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: __attribute__ comes to mind < 1349675202 790471 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :__attribute__(()) invokes undefined behavior. < 1349675205 396531 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: No. < 1349675219 30139 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: what? < 1349675232 170330 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: that does not seem right < 1349675245 188084 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if programs with UB were not conformant that'd make the whole concept of UB a bit meaningless I think < 1349675263 654915 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :__* is a reserved name; using it in any context is UB. < 1349675297 382540 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unclear what 'reserved' means < 1349675306 480940 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: translation unit < 1349675331 822551 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Reserved" means "using this is UB". That's what it's defined as. < 1349675348 743025 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: really? Not as making the code ill-formed? < 1349675381 905397 :kinoSi0!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349675409 71298 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1349675432 973246 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: huh < 1349675474 468930 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well an example I can think of is 'signed overflow is defined' < 1349675483 749692 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, that's runtime < 1349675484 104085 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1349675493 678544 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If the program declares or defines an identifier in a context in which it is reserved, or defines a reserved identifier as a macro name, the behavior is undefined." < 1349675496 701894 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaah < 1349675506 304682 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, iff you try and #define or #undef __attribute__ it's UB. < 1349675511 878452 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, it's... ? < 1349675597 259216 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, GCC statement expressions are a good example < 1349675601 912552 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't define it yourself, you'd be referencing something that isn't necessarily defined? < 1349675612 353578 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Right. < 1349675640 831347 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless by random chance magic it happens to be there, and then I guess you just have no way to know what it does < 1349675659 776089 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but a conformant compiler will tell you that something happened! < 1349675677 79950 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, a diagnostic could easily be "i dont want to live any more" < 1349675816 323619 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. There are in fact a decent number of syntax errors that are UB. < 1349675840 75165 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The initializer for a scalar is neither a single expression nor a single expression closed in braces" invokes UB. < 1349675893 91799 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is UB for a source file to be both nonempty and not end with a newline. < 1349675930 981885 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :a number of those UBs are, AIUI, due to old implementations with weird behaviours < 1349675931 689016 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :but an empty source file is ok? < 1349675937 53310 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yes. < 1349675946 775595 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: you know trigraphs? < 1349675961 408525 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the empty quine will be UB. Because that does not define main. < 1349675963 162982 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yeah. < 1349675989 710780 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is UB for there to be an unmatched ' or " < 1349676059 273263 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is UB for an identifier to start with a digit. < 1349676076 421107 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> length "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" < 1349676077 497739 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 20 < 1349676084 513395 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> length "monqy" < 1349676085 689534 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 5 < 1349676086 478558 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :> length "hi monqy" < 1349676087 507129 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 8 < 1349676092 808043 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :coïncidencë? < 1349676097 73717 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: They are in C++11 because of IBM < 1349676107 784983 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> length "shachaf" < 1349676108 886808 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 7 < 1349676110 13451 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Fuck 'em < 1349676111 229179 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :> length "funpuns" < 1349676112 299711 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 7 < 1349676118 136871 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely they can update to UTF-EBCDIC < 1349676123 933294 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the IBM reps reportedly said "We're sorry. We really wish we could take them out, but we have actual code that depends on these actually being in the standard." < 1349676171 980984 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :herp, if they need their code to follow the latest standard they should just update it < 1349676194 626481 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Have you considered being more like oerjan? < 1349676232 731100 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in what way? < 1349676277 499358 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not something I've considered per se, but I'm always open for suggestions if you want me to change my behavior < 1349676286 151947 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe shuffle your nick around. < 1349676289 386211 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerlsn < 1349676296 869538 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that would only be confusing < 1349676299 124664 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: have you considered being less like shachaf < 1349676311 717015 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then he wouldn't be shachaf now would he < 1349676312 680380 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rot13 olsner < 1349676314 286348 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott_: have you considered being more like monqy < 1349676314 480852 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :byfare < 1349676323 214368 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, I did that the other day < 1349676325 337627 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rot13 monqy < 1349676325 780008 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :zbadl < 1349676336 381668 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rot13 mrmistermonkey < 1349676336 869309 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :zezvfgrezbaxrl < 1349676352 660062 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :funpuns = best nick < 1349676368 658009 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow zezvfgrezbaxrl is my secret name how did you know < 1349676400 714960 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :!rot13 mistermysterymonkey < 1349676401 193240 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :zvfgrezlfgrelzbaxrl < 1349676440 432172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elementary my dear monqy < 1349677037 507125 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1349677048 816128 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :the supreme court of canada issued "an order in the nature of mandamus" < 1349677056 340110 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the distinction between that and actual mandamus is < 1349677061 659342 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a mandamus < 1349677694 55652 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could explain a lot < 1349677891 771099 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It appears that's a *US* legal term? < 1349677940 33581 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to declare "fuck if I know" < 1349677973 198891 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: it's not purely US < 1349677982 995442 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A strictly conforming program shall use only those features of the language and library specified in this International Standard.3) It shall not produce output dependent on any unspecified, undefined, or implementation-defined behavior, and shall not exceed any minimum implementation limit." < 1349678001 60919 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: mandamus is an order by a court to a government agency to perform some action < 1349678093 447769 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: most notably when a court refuses to hear a case citing lack of decision; the court has refused to hear the case so it is not a decision which can be appealed, so a higher court can issue mandamus to force it to hear the case < 1349678348 624595 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: olsner: An empty source file is not ok: the syntax is "translation-unit: external-declaration | external-declaration translation-unit" and there's no way for external-declaration to be empty. < 1349678367 215725 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And yes, it makes the bit about nonempty source files and newlines a bit bizarre.) < 1349678541 874031 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the intent is arguable, though. But at least GCC folks have interpreted it so that the translation unit as a whole must be parseable as the nonterminal called 'translation-unit', and hence rejects the empty file. < 1349678562 539137 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: but it can generally be used for anything. One example I can find is ordering a municipality to impose tax < 1349678711 627837 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I was referring to "nature of mandamus" in particular < 1349678730 957747 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mandamus" appears to be a UK-derivative legal system term. < 1349678855 527275 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: ah, no < 1349678893 527797 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: The context is that the court ordered the government to do something, but said it was "of the nature of mandamus" < 1349678925 781382 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://scc.lexum.org/en/1994/1994scr3-1100/1994scr3-1100.html < 1349678926 132154 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1349678946 907255 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's... terse < 1349679023 627375 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean TERSEâ„¢. < 1349679036 994794 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a trade mark of JimNeiL. < 1349679063 943152 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you for that knowledge < 1349679066 317948 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel smarter already < 1349679099 543880 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I declare that legal systems are overly obtuse. < 1349679111 611493 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think empty source files ought to be allowed in C, but they shouldn't compile into an executable since there is no main. It should just make a object file which does nothing if linked with other files, as if that file is not there. < 1349679113 322128 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that they need replaced with a suffusion of yellow. < 1349679176 712058 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it more logical this way? < 1349679209 842700 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I'm sorry. I don't think you have the necessary jurisdiction. < 1349679220 192627 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Perhaps you should ask a court to do that. < 1349679235 130824 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You can have a source file that says "typedef int foo;" -- that's almost as good. It compiles into an object file, and since the typedef only has file scope and doesn't make any external-linkage objects or anything, it's quite close to "not there". < 1349679257 97536 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Okay, admittedly it might end up in the debugging information.) < 1349679310 503900 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well yes I suppose you can work around in that way, but still I think it would just be more sensible to allow an empty source file. < 1349679317 10691 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But I a sovereign citizen! < 1349679325 789533 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not recognize the jurisdiction of the courts! < 1349679332 177869 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not consent! < 1349679348 515552 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: how do I sign up? < 1349679424 785749 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I suppose many compilers already do, since it is indeed more logical. GCC does unless compiling with "-pedantic", and as mentioned, the standard isn't very explicit about it. < 1349679459 326331 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :clang seems to accept it always. < 1349679467 219656 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1349679509 41606 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does clang not have the pedantic mode? < 1349679516 272465 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it does < 1349679535 601828 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then they should fix it, isn't it? < 1349679575 29244 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, their interpretation of the standard might be different. The part in the translation phases about an empty source file is arguably evidence that empty translation units should be okay too. < 1349679617 434297 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, how coincidental. < 1349679625 888580 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Date: Wed Jun 6 12:25:21 2012 "Add pedantic warning -Wempty-translation-unit (C11 6.9p1)." < 1349679636 2045 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My version here at work is older than that.) < 1349679657 73302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1349680225 871260 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : You mean TERSEâ„¢. < 1349680226 102988 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's a trade mark of JimNeiL. < 1349680226 358254 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1349680240 506954 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349680254 857332 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349680987 83982 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last Dungeons&Dragons session I have played is incomplete, so no experience points yet. But still I think I have thought of what to do next in this time between sessions. It is a bit like you can in chess by mail, you have a lot of time to figure out. Except, chess doesn't have hidden information, and with chess by mail this happens after every move instead of just a session. < 1349681090 461790 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, some of my strategies are similar to that of chess. (But not always) < 1349681406 314423 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it can include: zwischenzug, zugzwang, fork check, discovered check, smothered mate, and so on. < 1349681649 686770 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since we are very outnumbered, we can use this to our advantage. < 1349681751 262454 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It wouldn't work if we weren't outnumbered.) < 1349681972 563878 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the "grotesque" chess problem where the white has only one king and one pawn (still on the starting row), and black still has sixteen pieces, and white will win? < 1349684104 537337 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349684873 60210 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349687274 262834 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-8-230-182.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1349687419 208988 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-231-162.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349688417 372094 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1349689078 160268 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349689083 851500 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349690539 769464 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1349690573 838124 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1349693648 371728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349694149 528455 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349694163 182837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349694383 708936 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-14-184-160.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1349694542 915592 :barts_!~barts@p57AE9E56.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349694744 227328 :barts!~barts@p4FD0F2A1.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1349694912 219610 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1349695569 29439 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.171 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349695728 741227 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349695896 500428 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: q q q qqq qq q q qqq q < 1349695918 813709 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Hey, is Nvidia or ATI better supported by Linux this month? < 1349696521 401188 :elliott_!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349696623 212726 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1349697323 536446 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1349697342 761636 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick sanity check: is banning / and .. enough to avoid all directory traversal attacks on UNIX? < 1349697351 422577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on the automarker script again, looking for exploits < 1349697354 791386 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1349697357 52517 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly not < 1349697375 639646 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is in a field that's /meant/ to be an email address < 1349697379 911932 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you know how loose the email RFC is < 1349697388 608423 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(specifically, the address-part of the address) < 1349697671 924451 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I guess there's NUL, but I'm pretty sure that's not allowed in an email address (and will be rejected by the email address parser I grabbed) < 1349697698 907370 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1349697790 296927 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I've thought of a brilliant exploit, actually < 1349697798 970284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I doubt the students will come up with it < 1349697804 933488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not in the filename thing, in something else) < 1349697817 619668 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it < 1349697851 125724 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the program could bypass one of its checks by outputting its own SHA-1 hash < 1349697867 109549 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you could accomplish with a sufficiently clever modification of a quine < 1349697885 167586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that you can't use any libraries for this, so the marker would probably notice the SHA-1 code as it scrolled past < 1349697943 370821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine why that would happen < 1349697968 103032 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, because we're linking the student's code to provided code < 1349697974 357297 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we want to check that the provided code has run < 1349697982 933113 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we give it the SHA-1 hash of the student's code < 1349697984 983808 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to output < 1349698043 771379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we could just use a random string < 1349698062 963208 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Found dependencies: Capture::Tiny, Throwable::Error, Email::Abstract, Moose" < 1349698069 76664 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this is going to take a while to install… < 1349698084 12031 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are downsides to emergency use of CPAN < 1349698959 999880 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have i told you about cpanminus < 1349698960 681593 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget < 1349698968 181438 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has made my life less hellish < 1349699013 688394 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349699024 358607 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349699032 809622 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-81.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1349699106 272257 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: have i told you about cpanminus < 1349699107 172013 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget < 1349699108 159182 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has made my life less hellish < 1349699134 825731 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less hellish, but sometimes loopy, I'd say. < 1349699169 500835 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ais523_ doesn't count as real fizzie < 1349699185 496930 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Few things count as real fizzies. < 1349699244 20059 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many < 1349699282 380854 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I haven't counted. < 1349699360 347670 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I'm using cpanminus < 1349699362 102837 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also local::lib < 1349699363 940026 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1349699369 316119 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily the two play together well < 1349699376 389532 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a pain to get initially set up without root < 1349699400 956856 :Kiwitinker!~nds@122-59-187-88.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1349699750 920870 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome Kiwitinker < 1349699769 608308 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kiwitinker: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1349699830 337279 :Kiwitinker!~nds@122-59-187-88.jetstream.xtra.co.nz PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1349699942 952786 :Kiwitinker!~nds@122-59-187-88.jetstream.xtra.co.nz PART :#esoteric < 1349699960 31453 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was pointless < 1349699982 960588 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The welcoming procedure sure saves a lot of time, though. < 1349699992 648404 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1349699999 93149 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, what's that hash in the topic the hash /of/? < 1349700024 896183 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You will need to break SHA-3 to find out, I suppose. < 1349700040 981241 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Perhaps that's why it's in the topic.) < 1349700042 912812 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ask someone who was present for the hashing < 1349700047 192622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, that's an SHA-3 hash? < 1349700052 509247 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed those would be alphanumeric or something < 1349700061 149958 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it looks like an SHA-2 hash based on the length < 1349700068 990142 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHA-3 lengths are equal to SHA-2. < 1349700080 878199 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And SHA-3 was the topic when the hash was added, so I kind of assumed. < 1349700089 789363 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what the "new hash function overlords" is referring to. < 1349700111 443827 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1349700181 736268 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yup, SHA3-224. < 1349700186 478297 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what it's claimed to be. < 1349700253 495107 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's a hash of "I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords". < 1349700261 562839 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1349700267 685588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that checking the logs, or guessing the input? < 1349700282 879694 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking the logs. < 1349700291 343105 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :To find the hash algorithm; it was mentioned, nearby. < 1349700552 378405 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a nonbreaking version of  ? < 1349700655 371545 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :  is kinda. < 1349700674 338237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE, "a narrow form of a no-break space, typically the width of a thin space or a mid space". < 1349700682 184400 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1349700685 31038 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But that's a bit vague.) < 1349700730 305578 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349700938 523302 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well it looks right, anyway < 1349700963 299710 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-81.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1349701122 674990 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-81.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1349701369 515273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349701402 316147 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349702171 104434 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349702188 209328 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349702192 430374 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14:15] hmm, I take it Haskell doesn't have ignore in its standard library, on the basis that it's completely useless? < 1349702193 868967 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14:15] or did someone put it there anyway? < 1349702195 878467 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t ignore < 1349702196 906821 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `ignore' < 1349702203 672344 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in Prelude, at least < 1349702252 848190 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what type? < 1349702767 316283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: by the way what function got chose as sha-3 < 1349702770 572272 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume you are Wise enough to Know < 1349702831 143215 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1349702881 154443 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349702888 170300 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349702980 307606 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: That kcckkaekekcakce one. < 1349702983 82809 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Keccak. < 1349702993 993139 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one that sounds like Korean laughter. < 1349703122 666118 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1349703454 789097 :heroux!~heroux@5070823C.static.ziggozakelijk.nl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1349703972 821597 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Did that one have any ~famous names~? < 1349704113 991636 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't know who's famous in crypto-circles; but I mean it's not the Schneier one. These people were from STMicroelectronics. < 1349704142 761105 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and it's also not that Grøstl thing that had some reasonably known dude I believe. < 1349704143 787526 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1349704144 504036 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one advantage of keccak that people are mentioning is that it's completely different from sha-2 < 1349704154 797807 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they think it's unlikely they'll both be broken the same way < 1349704167 203313 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the other is the parallelizability and efficiency in especially hardware implementations. < 1349704230 275106 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keccak is one of those spongey things, so for once it's not a Merkle-DamgÃ¥rd construction. < 1349704260 793049 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is it meant to be particularly efficient or particularly inefficient? < 1349704263 144647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :efficient, I guess < 1349704269 811729 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Efficient, yes. < 1349704275 1994 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have block ciphers for the inefficient hashes < 1349704318 594574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's got some kind of a "tree mode" thing that's supposed to be even more parallelizable; there are GPU implementations already. < 1349704319 332655 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349704341 110493 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349704344 208181 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And supposedly it's especially efficient when it comes to speed/area considerations in dedicated hardware. < 1349704348 652577 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349704397 262393 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the software implementation, while maybe not the fastest of SHA-3 candidates, wasn't too bad either. < 1349704425 3789 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I guess Schneier and Bernstein are cryptofamous to me and nobody else. :p < 1349704425 998843 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I saw something like 12.5 cycles/byte mentioned. < 1349704432 482238 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you pronounce Keccak anyway? < 1349704442 112472 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rijndael was bad enough. < 1349704464 401041 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I think you pronounce the double c as a k, and don't let the vowels interact with each other < 1349704469 288821 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: According to kmc, "it's pronounced 'kashyyyk'", but... < 1349704492 987211 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That *was* right after references to LORD KECCAK and so on. < 1349704499 437825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : "8068" is the least common PIN -- that'll probably change now that the fact is published. < 1349704552 885910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world's least memorable 4-digit number? < 1349704560 173399 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1349704562 203240 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easy to remember < 1349704562 897133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, it's like 8086 with a swapped second pair. < 1349704564 524867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the least common PIN < 1349704568 722040 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :least pressnice number. < 1349704570 58792 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'll never forget it < 1349704572 731891 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should use it < 1349704585 60803 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything < 1349704586 601445 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should use it as your personal PIN number. < 1349704595 326905 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get to choose mine :/ < 1349704596 456162 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if someone tries to spy on me while I put it in I'll say aah, you'll never get it, it's the least common PIN number in the world! < 1349704605 385364 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fuck you < 1349704608 181428 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I use PNG graphics too!! < 1349704619 294612 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's good to use portable PNG graphics files. < 1349704621 158288 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll put my fucking PIN number in the fucking ATM machine and you won't complain < 1349704632 456859 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the network. < 1349704718 61141 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1349704890 580706 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-81.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1349705464 359109 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Pungent Nocturnal Gerbils. < 1349706026 702114 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349706311 209551 :oklofok!~oklopol@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :penis nads genitals lol haha < 1349707669 477454 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1349707808 32197 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1349708260 728376 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-26.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1349708459 25541 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-26.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349708476 208103 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349708488 159994 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1349708506 516947 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages? < 1349708506 711577 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, no messages today. < 1349708508 662234 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay < 1349708992 414847 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-26.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1349709045 236903 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-14-184-160.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Quit: mig22 < 1349709307 383736 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1349709912 143313 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did we work out what to call that category last night? < 1349709955 800938 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :friend < 1349710800 603593 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay < 1349710812 625779 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So not the Product Semigroupoid or something like that < 1349710994 406332 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-81.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1349711171 607967 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :friend is a better name < 1349711271 641702 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed it is < 1349711950 487477 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1349711995 884684 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I need better friends < 1349712002 398599 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, will you be my friend? < 1349712165 716473 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm experiencing Ship-to-ship combat in the TVTropes sense < 1349712169 90823 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of REAL PEOPLE < 1349712173 2474 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOME OF WHOM ARE ME < 1349712190 194188 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... think I will elect to not get involved. < 1349712200 343104 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could try being friends with fizzie??? He's nice! < 1349712210 778403 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, Gay Dads is a way better ship than Alladin < 1349712216 827408 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1349712263 669358 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Have fun! < 1349712561 968862 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349712697 290315 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do OpenOffice and LibreOffice differ? < 1349712801 983963 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the developers moved to LibreOffice < 1349712817 252958 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: LibreOffice was going to be “the†followup to OOo until Oracle decided to give it to Apache. It's not clear where OOo is going now, but LibreOffice has made a lot of code cleanups, and hypothetically things are much smoother (I haven't noticed any difference). Most of the developers and distros jumped ship before the OOo->Apache switchover. < 1349712952 507183 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: One has an "Open" and the other a "Libre". < 1349713062 922842 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, LibreOffice is no longer the followup to OOo? < 1349713111 337685 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: LibreOffice came about when it looked like Oracle was just going to let it stagnate, but instead they gave the rights to the Apache foundation. > 1349713301 687285 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349713302 284353 :glogbot!codu@codu.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1349713303 476855 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 PART :#esoteric > 1349713305 800962 JOIN :#esoteric > 1349713306 317296 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349713315 21240 :FireFly!~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1349713383 818468 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Apache Foundation seems to do a lot of stuff that's not web server stuff < 1349713394 169923 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They maintain some sort of convenience library for I/O stuff in Java < 1349713408 382275 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, they do all sorts of shit. < 1349713409 706129 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ... a packaging system for Java < 1349713412 155578 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Emphasis on “shit†< 1349713435 340042 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have that Google Wave thing which was actually quite cool but nobody understood it < 1349713442 170191 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1349713457 796930 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ride the Google Wave dot Com < 1349713491 454502 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is sort of in the Java ecosystem now, for better or worse < 1349713521 608590 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of In the Java Ecosystem Now: The Game of the Movie < 1349713539 892914 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm kinda in the Java ecosystem too right now. < 1349713544 274446 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :P.S. I work at Oracle, lol < 1349713576 932883 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of In the Java Ecosystem Now/Kind of In the Java Ecosystem Now, double concept album about being resp. sort of and kind of in the Java ecosystem now. < 1349713626 717782 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would buy that album. < 1349713628 617194 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then return it. < 1349713665 631199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :one day I will make it and it will be a modern masterpiece < 1349713730 133330 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :new JavaEcosystemManagerFactory().getJavaEcosystemManager(new DefaultJavaEcosystemFactoryConfig()).add(new JavaEcosystemElement(Sgeo)).add(new JavaEcosystemElement(Gregor)) < 1349713745 511898 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :; < 1349713756 674701 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :prospective song titles: Ant (What the Fuck is This Shit? Is that XML?); I Don't Fucking Understand Maven, Guess it's Back to Ant; Hey, It's Alright, I Never Cared About GUI Toolkits that Are Worth a Damn Anyway < 1349713797 694880 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leiningen is good... until you want to use a standalone .jar in your project. < 1349713801 289240 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: new EcosystemManagerFactoryFactory(new JavaEcosystem()).createEcosystemManager(new JavaEcosystemConfiguration(JavaEcosystemConfiguration.CONFIGURATION_PARAMETERS.DEFAULT)) < 1349713816 125199 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn These Folks Are Some Windows-Using Bullshit < 1349713818 701748 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, misused my factory factory. < 1349713838 511847 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: new EcosystemManagerFactoryFactory().createEcosystemManagerFactory(new JavaEcosystem()).createEcosystemManager(new JavaEcosystemConfiguration(JavaEcosystemConfiguration.CONFIGURATION_PARAMETERS.DEFAULT)) < 1349713848 516466 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wanting to Release a Java Package but Not Having a Domain Name to Name the Package With Blues (Pt. I) < 1349713858 397228 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope you are all imagining these songs in your head < 1349713867 492921 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, does Swing really suck that much? And if it does, is it usability issues or fundamental issues? Because if the former, there's a Clojure library called Seesaw. < 1349713867 573625 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :import static cx.goatse.*; < 1349713890 423097 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: I don't think your suggestion "took". < 1349713901 238048 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Now if only Clojure didn't suck that much… < 1349713930 769749 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1349713953 565738 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1349713990 172943 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would buy that album and then return it but first i would rip it but only to 96 kbps mp3 < 1349713990 939893 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :JVM-Hosted Languages Trilogy: Pt I. Clojure (Hey, This is Almost Lisp); Pt II. Scala (Hey, This is Almost Haskell); Pt III. Conclusion (Wow, They're All Shit) < 1349714010 490122 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot rhino!!!!!!!!!111 < 1349714030 204764 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi is it make fun of java o'clock < 1349714047 254025 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :gdoo mgornin etlliot < 1349714049 709821 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Downloading an Illegal Pirated Copy of the Timeless Classic "Sort of In the Java Ecosystem Now/Kind of In the Java Ecosystem" Using HotJava < 1349714063 614884 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are in the java ecosystem you have to use hotjava < 1349714066 120877 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the rules < 1349714106 896555 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: also if i included rhino it wouldn't be a trilogy < 1349714110 239282 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't know what comes after trilogy < 1349714117 302495 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm here to provide the soul dammit < 1349714126 639555 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The HHGG trilogy is not a trilogy. < 1349714138 289826 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott is the sole provider < 1349714154 473366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first Xanth trilogy has 3³ books. < 1349714162 427013 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all pretty much the same. < 1349714258 102667 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :has anyone actually used hotjava < 1349714258 609849 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have < 1349714485 273538 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Clojure is your argument for the popularity of Lisp? All seven Clojure users thank you. I never said Lisp is popular eh But it's the only dialect that actually has got some uses outside of academia and long-forgotten companies. Yes, by soon-to-be-long-forgotten companies. * Sorella uses it at work D: < 1349714872 804424 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :clojure is like haskell but worse and also less popular < 1349714888 321068 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clojure isn't really like haskell < 1349714898 318503 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a not entirely serious comparison < 1349714902 713868 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :they both try to do stm! only one succeeds < 1349715339 37446 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Do you know how MonadFix works? < 1349715360 361137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And RecursiveDo. < 1349715365 863686 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1349715376 339262 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1349715395 454219 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Sort of. < 1349715396 469483 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1349715660 317703 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1349715754 555609 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Have you read my suggestion for the wiki? What do you think? < 1349716180 476159 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can make a writer monad with Codensity and it can also be done with CodensityAsk. < 1349716220 420348 :kinoSi0!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1349716222 552160 :TeruFSX_!~quassel@65-128-188-237.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349716247 272958 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349716367 882025 :TeruFSX!~quassel@65-128-188-237.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1349716681 266852 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.171 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1349716730 96627 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example: newtype X y z = X { runX :: y -> z -> z }; type Writer x = CodensityAsk (X x); write x = CodensityAsk (\(X a) f -> a x $ f ()); runWriter (CodensityAsk f) = f (X $ \a (b, c) -> (a : b, c)) ((,) []); < 1349716835 331871 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To make a write monad with Codensity, you could make up a "write only" class. < 1349717371 880834 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-81.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1349717628 301011 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1349717659 79839 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349717839 891852 :variable!~root@128.226.240.192 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349717853 991999 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-26.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349717862 191977 :variable!~root@128.226.240.192 NICK :Guest89785 < 1349717882 627339 :Guest89785!~root@128.226.240.192 QUIT :Changing host < 1349717882 708040 :Guest89785!~root@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1349717884 467131 :Guest89785!~root@freebsd/developer/variable NICK :trout < 1349717998 507954 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :> dec 0xbe631ff0 < 1349717999 550440 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `dec' < 1349718017 131392 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0xbe631ff0 < 1349718018 174690 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3194167280 < 1349718029 818475 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0b100101 < 1349718031 455028 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `b100101' < 1349718044 178261 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0771 < 1349718045 818860 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 771 < 1349718051 581352 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ I wanted to resize the stack to that :( < 1349718059 516261 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0o771 < 1349718060 819039 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 505 < 1349718064 558649 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you wanted octal. < 1349718083 209467 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, I don't think it does binary literals. But there's always the things that read strings. < 1349718231 18081 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :> fst . head $ readInt 2 isDigit digitToInt "100101" < 1349718233 169642 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 37 < 1349718287 520399 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There only seems to be premade readOct, readDec and readHex. Poor binary numbers, nobody likes 'em. < 1349718308 835603 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl print oct("0b100101"); < 1349718310 500998 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :37 < 1349718324 196798 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except maybe Perl and a few other guys. < 1349718349 960192 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that you say < 1349718355 842785 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be NICK :AnotherTest < 1349718356 262303 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-26.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1349718359 644366 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do that in C? < 1349718364 688013 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy canadian thanksgiving < 1349718372 429626 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: What, 0b000 literals? Not standardly. < 1349718389 20830 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary numbers are being discriminated! < 1349718401 730100 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC has an extension for 0b, unsurprisingly. < 1349718458 162346 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :No printf formatting specifiers for binary in glibc, though, as far as I know. < 1349718516 422149 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%ld\n", strtol("111", NULL, 2)); < 1349718519 936930 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 < 1349718608 428437 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now do it the other way around. < 1349718617 207242 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's the problem, innit :) < 1349718713 660759 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ##c bot has a %b that's like %o/%u/%x except with binary. (Glibc has a mechanism for hanging custom hooks on unused -- maybe used, too -- conversion specifiers.) < 1349718797 53279 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%n", *(0)); < 1349718798 967433 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1349718811 591881 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%n", (void *)0); < 1349718814 170998 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 17997 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$ < 1349718815 196627 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :dereference (0)? < 1349718851 920170 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dereferencing NULL is fun >_> < 1349718858 571654 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The weirdo printf specifier that writes to memory. < 1349718871 836199 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1349718887 691983 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow < 1349718898 341514 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :%n does that. < 1349718904 53713 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, just read X-D < 1349718908 393697 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe there's been a number of related security bugs. < 1349718909 487195 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1349718928 162762 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does printf have a command to write to memory? That doesn't make sense. < 1349718946 843842 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It writes the number of so-far output characters there. < 1349718965 98724 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I believe it's meant for tricky aligning of things and so on. < 1349718977 971781 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would make more sense to just use the result of printf doesn't it already do that? < 1349718990 257703 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but that's the total string. < 1349718999 185243 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can stick %n in the middle. < 1349719018 315240 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can call printf more than once, too. < 1349719018 691683 :hagb4rd!~perdito@p57972569.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349719038 172512 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Sure, but it's inkonkkenient. < 1349719118 504901 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c int i, j; printf("%d%n%d%n", 123, &i, 456, &j); printf(" - %d %d", i, j); < 1349719120 659836 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :123456 - 3 6 < 1349719166 226997 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c int i = printf("%d", 123), j = printf("%d, 456)"; printf(" - %d %d", i, j); < 1349719167 721386 :EgoBot!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1349719172 883157 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. < 1349719174 821278 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, anyway. < 1349719177 822558 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some bit in the standard related to sequence points or something that was only meaningful because of %n, I think. Maybe even a footnote. < 1349719198 244439 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something about there being a sequence point after each conversion specifier. < 1349719217 748225 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why %n would have any relevance to sequence points. < 1349719223 505809 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can have %n writing into a string later printed with %s and it's well-defined. < 1349719237 942798 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If crazy. < 1349719265 281913 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :… but %n doesn't write into a string, and if you did %n%d, then the %d would receive the old value. < 1349719281 100792 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that has nothing to do with %n, it's just arguments being evaluated well before it's dereferenced. < 1349719284 74810 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :%n can write into a string of you point it at one. < 1349719294 389466 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is %n allowed to write a single byte value? < 1349719308 101785 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OK, but that still has nothing to do with sequence points, it just has to do with the algorithm used by printf. < 1349719339 152772 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But if there wasn't a sequence point after the %n you couldn't say whether it was the old or new value. < 1349719367 828806 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's not a sequence point, sequence points define the order of evaluation of subexpressions within a single expression. < 1349719378 708783 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's just steps in the algorithm of printf. < 1349719402 250949 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are sequence points between statements, you know. < 1349719403 393443 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me quote it for you. < 1349719431 259956 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course there are, that's what makes statements statements, but sequence points are what define the semantics of the C /language/, not C library functions. < 1349719461 726013 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/are what// < 1349719530 353672 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, after I clean up some cat puke. < 1349719714 800324 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The formatted input/output functions shall behave as if there is a sequence point after the < 1349719718 275049 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :actions associated with each specifier.274) < 1349719719 720988 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :274) The fprintf functions perform writes to memory for the %n specifier. < 1349719733 209074 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :C11 7.21.6p1 and the footnote. < 1349719743 960522 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why… would they word it that way X_X < 1349719779 831662 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose that's not worse a way to word it than anything else, but it confuses a language issue with a library issue. < 1349719810 567185 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you can't know anything about what goes on in the algorithm of printf, presumably they wanted to guarantee there's a sequence point in-between. I mean, a sequence point is defined to mean that all side effects have completed. < 1349719818 736611 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The presence of a sequence point < 1349719818 817325 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :between the evaluation of expressions A and B implies that every value computation and < 1349719822 257340 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :side effect associated with A is sequenced before every value computation and side effect < 1349719825 611195 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :associated with B. < 1349719828 96092 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on. < 1349719914 658851 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :“Since you can't know anything about what goes on in the algorithm of printf†< 1349719924 581365 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course you can, the C spec is defining its behavior! < 1349719966 980960 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what that means. < 1349719983 674149 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they still make ARMv2? < 1349720084 226711 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You're saying that the C spec can't know anything about what goes on in the algorithm of printf, when it's /defining/ printf. It can choose to be as lax or precise in that description as it would like. This is an imperative language, it should be defining the imperatives, not trying to define it as if this were a functional language and then throwing sequence points, a trick to add precision to the language semantics, to the description of the implementat < 1349720084 657265 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion of a function. < 1349720114 797383 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'm not sure how it should be "defining the imperatives" there. < 1349720178 552093 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I mean, it's defining certain actions that are associated with the conversion specifiers, and some of those actions involve side effects like writing to memory, so it's defining in which order those actions are sequenced, using the terminology related to those side effects. < 1349720238 873501 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION of a function. < 1349720283 636904 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: "ion of function" could be your kind-of title. < 1349720296 637281 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the VAX printf only using BCD? < 1349720339 408513 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, did you think of a name for yesterday's category? < 1349720373 291851 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: No, I did not. < 1349720392 773939 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: how's your userpage? < 1349720394 551595 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :well people page < 1349720435 676111 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonexistant < 1349720437 65939 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um < 1349720442 235143 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not very interesting < 1349720443 901592 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1349720455 737659 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I walked backwards to my maths lesson today for the hell of it < 1349720514 805900 :hagb4rd!~perdito@p57972569.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1349720582 392610 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: what did you do? < 1349720595 535646 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: Physically walked backwards? < 1349720625 486526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: are you responsible for the latest TDWTF entry? < 1349720628 663175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it a different Koen? < 1349720650 323443 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :(07:05:39 PM) AnotherTest: ais523: Have you read my suggestion for the wiki? What do you think? < 1349720689 74531 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea was to have infoboxes < 1349720750 606302 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest, yes < 1349720764 909654 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: explain! < 1349720769 464598 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My ankles started hurting after a while < 1349720829 606156 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: So you walked backwards through the corridors of your school or something? < 1349720832 133358 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I walked backwards out of the library, up the staircase, waited outside a door for a bit, then into the classroom and sat down < 1349720849 110361 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1349720872 606357 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then after the lesson I walked backwards out of the room, down a staircase, up the staircase again, along a corridor, down a different staircase, along another corridor, and back into the library < 1349720887 687818 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: Weren't you at all afraid that someone would videotape (uh, I mean... mpeg-4-solid-store...) your walking, and then play it backwards, generating the illusion that you were walking forward? < 1349720909 195832 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1349720912 313205 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all your friends said "oh, that's perfectly normal, no reason to put this on youtube"? < 1349720922 552356 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's worse videos of me on the internet < 1349720945 442625 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :2009 and 2010 were weird years for me < 1349720960 599478 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walk backwards in the hallway with clock. < 1349720991 549213 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: how so? < 1349721044 463943 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of backwards-walking? < 1349721079 435495 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I want to tell you? < 1349721086 830226 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1349721092 479156 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds as if you do. < 1349721106 75808 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Youtube "Cool kid plays air drums" and "Cool kid plays air drums 2" < 1349721123 491288 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1349721134 294043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, you've been one of the cool kids. < 1349721136 926264 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your lucky I don't have flash < 1349721144 874859 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HTML 5? < 1349721153 182208 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't always work < 1349721163 499932 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it does < 1349721170 96020 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't < 1349721176 381802 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is bullying? < 1349721176 974785 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db41f73.pool.mediaWays.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349721235 498857 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1349721258 505839 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1349721275 833271 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1349721282 866213 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was me not caring about my personal image < 1349721408 605640 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're randomly walking backwards these days, it doesn't sound all that terribly careful nowadays either. < 1349721424 378091 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1349721448 274463 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should consider not doing that? < 1349721505 413022 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized RogueVM has some things similar to VAX. Unlike VAX, you are allowed to use PC as the destination and as an index, though. RogueVM can use immediates as a destination, has its own instruction set for converting numbers to ASCII (but with a different byte length!), you can use any addressing mode with any istructions, etc < 1349721505 790206 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (07:05:39 PM) AnotherTest: ais523: Have you read my suggestion for the wiki? What do you think? ↠sorry, that line is entirely too zzo38 and I'm having problems reading it as a result < 1349721548 63065 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Is having infoboxes a good idea or not? < 1349721589 718507 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In VAX, "Something like tstl (pc)+ can also be assembled, which is like a literal (same specifier), but reads from part of the following instruction." RogueVM also works like that for literals too < 1349721590 94358 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349721618 304412 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: on wikipedia, programming language pages (and many other stuff) have these boxes at the right side of the page. I think it would be nice to have general information about a language in there. < 1349721625 316208 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've since then carefully constructed a personal image based on being weird < 1349721647 255047 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not caring about my personal image < 1349721668 608084 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: Perhaps it might if they also have a database search so that the infoboxes can also be used in database tables and queries, perhaps? < 1349721686 854982 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: sounds good, if it's possible < 1349721700 818564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1349721706 845365 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349721718 716270 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don' t know much about mediawiki software and it's features < 1349721855 569509 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's useful when looking something up quickly. Eg. you want to know which languages influenced C++, in that case you can find it really fast on wikipedia < 1349721871 839832 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :For esoteric languages this would be useful too < 1349721899 930877 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think MediaWiki has it built-in but extension could be added. (With Hackiki, such extensions are just normal articles that anyone can write.) < 1349721939 884356 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, bye < 1349721953 963485 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: let me know what you think / whether it's possible < 1349721968 281278 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-19-142.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1349722243 615300 :hagb4rd!~perdito@koln-4db41f73.pool.mediaWays.net QUIT :Quit: hagb4rd < 1349722762 568629 :augur!~augur@129-2-129-26.wireless.umd.edu QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1349722789 762283 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. There exist Turing machines that halt in some models of ZFC, but not others. < 1349722929 269935 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that annoying? < 1349723043 27546 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is ZFC in this context? < 1349723054 795468 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the set theory? < 1349723071 627645 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1349723106 180365 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a Turing machine does not halt, but ZFC cannot prove that it does not halt, then there exists a model of ZFC in which it *does* halt. < 1349723118 806519 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can Turing machines half in some models of ZFC but not others? < 1349723136 884515 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that work? < 1349723191 296439 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define a "strange Turing machine" as one that does not halt, but, in a given model of ZFC, does halt. < 1349723206 452890 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :In such a model of ZFC, a strange Turing machine halts after a non-standard number of steps. < 1349723223 206718 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where a "non-standard number" is a number that exists in the model of ZFC, but not in the "real world". < 1349723239 637522 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1349723255 845881 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have examples? < 1349723296 76170 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :An example of a non-standard number? No. < 1349723313 468182 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :But here's a set theory that formally defines the predicate "standard": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_set_theory < 1349723322 340195 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, at least, gives axioms for it. < 1349723371 644025 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And people say maths is hard. < 1349723415 888758 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only non-standard numbers, I mean examples of strange Turing machine and such model of ZFC and so on. < 1349723422 761468 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1349723477 862938 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's impossible to prove that a Turing machine is strange, but an example of a strange Turing machine *may* be the one that searches for a counterexample to Goldbach's conjecture, and halts when it finds one. < 1349723531 412668 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349723543 656961 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :That Turing machine is strange if and only if Goldbach's conjecture is both true and unprovable. < 1349723573 699357 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that Turing machine *is* strange, then ZFC + "Goldbach's conjecture is false" is a consistent system. < 1349723601 210377 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :@_@ < 1349723655 916696 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does strange mean < 1349723683 920620 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: a "strange Turing machine" is one that does not halt, but, in some model of ZFC, does halt. < 1349723705 644611 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :O.o < 1349723722 267963 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, more mundanely: it's one that does not halt, but which we cannot prove does not halt. < 1349723865 110651 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1349723878 235433 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the Product type is a Semigroupoid < 1349723888 600918 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the Coproduct type a Cosemigroupoid? < 1349723922 7352 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a cosmic groupie < 1349723927 216858 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What even is a cosemigroupoid < 1349723935 220900 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly wish that mathematics had a sophisticated nomenclature like chemistry does. < 1349723941 928633 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a googlewhack, for one < 1349724180 220042 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what a cosemigroupoid is < 1349724194 907144 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a Cocategory a thing? < 1349724212 994534 :Deewiant!~deewiant@109.75.188.190 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently < 1349724239 609994 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what cocategory is either < 1349724248 422130 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about a cogroupoid? < 1349724257 213385 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or for that matter, a groupoid? < 1349724263 283905 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would that be a category with inverse? < 1349724273 687342 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :inv :: (a ~> b) -> (b ~> a)? < 1349724479 844567 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think so < 1349724614 469931 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349724640 288624 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t inv x y = y x < 1349724641 812391 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse error on input `=' < 1349724646 815980 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let inv x y = y x < 1349724648 345236 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :: not an expression: `let inv x y = y x' < 1349724734 528055 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1349724978 909651 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let inv x y = y x in inv < 1349724979 970554 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall t t1. t -> (t -> t1) -> t1 < 1349724983 999788 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip id < 1349724985 61786 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. a -> (a -> b) -> b < 1349725013 816891 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip < 1349725015 14220 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b < 1349725034 749066 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip (fmap (+ 1) [1,2,3]) < 1349725035 986497 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (Num b) => a -> [b] < 1349725041 298979 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> flip (fmap (+ 1) [1,2,3]) 6 < 1349725043 292525 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,4] < 1349725046 883437 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1349725053 135915 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> flip (fmap (+ 1) [1,2,3]) undefine < 1349725054 129482 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not in scope: `undefine' < 1349725055 746300 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> flip (fmap (+ 1) [1,2,3]) undefined < 1349725057 928698 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : [2,3,4] < 1349725097 50277 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip . ($) < 1349725098 105903 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b a1. (a1 -> a -> b) -> a -> a1 -> b < 1349725164 309400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you require another argument... < 1349725175 822895 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it's a list < 1349725219 262047 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip (fmap (+ 1) [1,2,3]) < 1349725220 584584 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b. (Num b) => a -> [b] < 1349725246 972097 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right it's because of lambdabot's Num (a -> b) instance < 1349725308 232702 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src flip < 1349725308 382919 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip f x y = f y x < 1349725312 667742 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1349725319 61195 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the one lambdabot uses, obviously :P < 1349725332 771830 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip < 1349725333 988353 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b < 1349725339 656448 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f a -> fmap ($ a) f < 1349725340 796078 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b < 1349725376 313693 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f -> flip fmap . id < 1349725377 775470 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall t a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => t -> f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1349725383 824257 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f -> flip fmap f . id < 1349725385 53645 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1349725402 389531 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f -> (.) (flip fmap f) id < 1349725403 806983 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1349725419 772944 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip (.) id . flip fmap < 1349725421 19903 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1349725425 687662 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :PERFECTION < 1349725432 136655 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip fmap id . flip fmap < 1349725433 284197 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1349725439 357520 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1349725442 384478 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... < 1349725442 911141 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMPERFECTION < 1349725470 930979 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349725496 657473 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f -> (. f) . fmap . ($) < 1349725497 704042 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) a b (f1 :: * -> *). (Functor f, Functor f1) => f (f1 a) -> (a -> b) -> f (f1 b) < 1349725510 792848 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :eek < 1349725538 590439 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1349725543 353463 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f -> (. f) . fmap . flip id < 1349725544 581275 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f :: * -> *) b (f1 :: * -> *) a. (Functor f, Functor f1) => f (f1 (a -> b)) -> a -> f (f1 b) < 1349725546 893331 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f a -> flip fmap f ($ a) < 1349725548 128217 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b (f :: * -> *) a. (Functor f) => f (a -> b) -> a -> f b < 1349725556 845943 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f a -> flip fmap f . ($) < 1349725557 918761 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall t a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> t -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1349725561 557540 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1349725567 968653 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t \f -> flip fmap f . ($) < 1349725569 232339 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b (f :: * -> *). (Functor f) => f a -> (a -> b) -> f b < 1349725574 925135 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO NO NO < 1349725588 623406 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@pl \f a -> fmap ($ a) f < 1349725588 792909 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip (fmap . flip id) < 1349725597 871456 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1349725608 934268 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :flip in terms of flip < 1349725609 941606 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1349725630 9095 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t let flip = flip (fmap . flip id) in flip < 1349725631 244113 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: f = (->) (f a) < 1349725631 452254 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : Probable cause: `flip' is applied to too many arguments < 1349725631 533205 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the expression: flip (fmap . flip id) < 1349725636 766613 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :FANCY < 1349725697 329588 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did anyone find a use for the Product Semigroupoid? < 1349725716 809821 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i recall < 1349725743 102280 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think i found that the Product Semigroupoid is a product of semigroupoids. < 1349725744 849683 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that even a remotely correct name? < 1349725771 363517 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's (,) < 1349725808 742808 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those semigroupoids being Const and Dual Const, in some sense) < 1349725859 548418 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just notice that the semigroupoid operation on the fst and snd elements are independent < 1349725863 172160 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1349725989 864917 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : but with something like lint checking, maybe there's a 'false sense of security' problem, where people focus on making the lint checker's irrelevant complaints go away rather than actually reviewing their code < 1349726032 254754 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it is most helpful if there is a requirement to pass lint before an _actual_ code review even starts < 1349726051 979826 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would mean that code review won't be bogged down in trivialities < 1349726055 496988 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1349726069 237732 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes a lot of sense < 1349726083 691141 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :we aren't doing code reviews currently :/ < 1349726092 997730 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad for something i made up on the spot >:) < 1349726133 25769 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me, itidus2[01] is still absent < 1349726153 612293 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope it's nothing serious < 1349726206 691332 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes freenode didn't reset the dates on the ban list < 1349726269 66290 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that irssi didn't put it in the channel window < 1349726553 703976 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a bunch of people told him off for being full of shit < 1349726562 525415 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i think has happened at least 100 times before < 1349726566 616529 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe it took this time < 1349726627 745786 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have been nice if it gave him a clue rather than chase him away, though < 1349726641 849333 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess that rarely works < 1349726683 749818 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm he is on freenode somewhere. < 1349726769 579527 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to call C++ code from Haskell using the FFI? < 1349726784 120531 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it just C code? < 1349726850 631996 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: not directly, no. < 1349726860 280854 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eugh. < 1349726864 735689 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about UnrealScript? < 1349726898 134345 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the general advice is to make a small C interface < 1349726913 958794 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, much, much more trouble than it's worth < 1349727103 467483 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"According to "The Haskell 98 Foreign Function Interface 1.0" report -- you import a C++ function by simply specifying the calling convention cplusplus. Unfortunately, no haskell compiler actually supports this calling convention, so we have to use the C calling convention instead." < 1349727126 865818 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The standard method for dealing with this is to write C++ code that uses extern "C" to export the methods unmangled. Of course, you still have to uniquify the method names, but *you* get to pick the names instead of letting the compiler do whatever wacky method it wants." < 1349727143 90766 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the rest of the haskellwiki page describes something much more hairy. < 1349727421 726018 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: my impression is that calling any other language from haskell or vice versa usually goes via their common C interface < 1349727476 113784 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that this still sometimes leaves the problem of getting one of them to accept not being the main program < 1349727548 903092 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well haskell doesn't have to be, but then you have to get the ghc runtime system set up with the right C calls.) < 1349727590 774514 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_: I have no idea what TDWTF is < 1349727597 237298 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Daily WTF < 1349727640 441259 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup that's what google told me < 1349727644 705691 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a site showcasing bad code. by what i hear, often badly :) < 1349727699 953559 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm I guess I don't use C often enough to find that "block" special < 1349727701 14784 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know how your compiler is going to name-mangle C++ functions *and* if the C++ calling convention is compatible with the C one, then you can call them directly < 1349727704 106625 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not recommended < 1349727737 505611 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and for my defense there's another Koen on freenode) < 1349727773 567439 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 NICK :ais523 < 1349727779 476809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can there be more than one Koen < 1349727809 830759 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually a pun on my name which works pretty well in french < 1349727879 945576 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it sound like "qu'une", which basically means "only one" (except une is the feminine form) < 1349727927 104327 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ceci n'est pas une qu'une < 1349727932 881938 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what about "If no variable is nonzero, skip to the matching END." for ndeql's begin < 1349727942 67862 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, pardon my accidental boldness < 1349727972 594625 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you just said "this is not an only one" < 1349728078 62479 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: i think that would make [-] clear all variables, right? (although using unpredictable time doing so.) which i think may mean you can somehow treat all the variables as a single bit in a usable way. < 1349728090 905669 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: it was a pun on "Ceci n'est pas un pipe" < 1349728109 954912 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1349728113 730286 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :* \-/ < 1349728131 701013 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, ok < 1349728166 171679 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nope, that wouldn't < 1349728190 545177 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? it wouldn't quit the loop until they're all zero. < 1349728196 865673 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because decrement wraps < 1349728203 350015 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1349728205 423205 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhh right < 1349728219 215942 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1349728219 296782 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, but i'm assuming it would statistically hit all zero _eventually_. < 1349728243 969492 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so in fact any loop is either an infinite loop or a loop that sets all variables to zero < 1349728249 658692 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1349728292 649193 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although still still doesn't make it easy to put predictable things in the deque ... _some_ variable could be zero when you try to put a nonzero there < 1349728296 936664 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*this still < 1349728302 123706 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a queue < 1349728322 159011 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, confusing a bit with your other language < 1349728352 202460 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1349728387 847278 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding instructions to affect the other side of the queue in ndeql would probably not change much, though < 1349728476 509344 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmm what about: a deque with "pop", "push", "toggle", a register, and cannot toggle inside loops < 1349728493 754610 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but the register is always accessible, so information can pass from one side to the other) < 1349728529 589898 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe conditionals (which don't loop) inside which you can toggle < 1349728633 561301 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i'm thinking \\-/=\ ... // might be a way to get something dequeued in a usable way... < 1349728820 523154 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wondering if you could check if the sum of the variables is odd or even < 1349728840 370738 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"until all variables are zero: (set them all to zero, dequeue one element (enqueuing a zero), and then until all variables are zero, do something that has no effect if the selected variable is zero, but which does what we want to do AND set all variables to zero if the selected variable is the right one )" < 1349728902 262940 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ndeql_oracle(\--/) checks if the sum is odd or even < 1349728914 450215 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy < 1349728926 856719 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _quite_ what i had in mind :) < 1349728998 297421 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1349729028 37627 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok here's a lead: if we can find a way to determine whether a loop allows for all variables to be set to zero or not < 1349729057 645430 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have proven that ndeql is not turing complete < 1349729104 609019 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think my brain is overloading again < 1349729169 491594 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1349729249 619119 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't like to think about things that are changing underneath it. < 1349729281 151932 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah < 1349729285 662605 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I play go and not chess < 1349729320 971882 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought go had change, but i haven't actually played it :) < 1349729321 501645 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that and the fact that go is objectively SO MUCH more better than chess) < 1349729332 738218 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course < 1349729342 557096 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weeeeeell uh there do exist several rules < 1349729355 482054 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending of the country you're in and the wather < 1349729357 324359 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weather < 1349729357 889508 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sort of got tired of chess < 1349729367 700042 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: i meant the board changing. < 1349729371 419644 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1349729383 457688 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the rules change in chess either. < 1349729396 545838 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, why am i thinking like this, i used to play nomic... < 1349729400 661695 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many variants of chess and go, some combined both, some changing the rules during the game or changing the geometry of the board, some with hidden information, etc < 1349729431 67687 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well japanese rules and french rules for go are much closer than shogi and occidental chess are < 1349729454 857098 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, this summer we tried the "phantom rengo" side tournament during the european congress < 1349729493 310302 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers trying to eat -> < 1349729504 915431 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a lot of fun (though the rules were not exactly "symmetric" for both teams, so white always won < 1349729546 450167 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"phantom go" means you don't see your opponent's moves (but if you try to play somewhere where there is already a stone, the referee will tell you it's a forbidden move and you can place an opponent's stone there to remember) < 1349729588 113434 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rengo is just go with a partner (you play once, your opponents play, your partner plays, your opponents play, then only it's your turn) < 1349729617 785271 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so phantom rengo: you see your own moves and one of your opponent's moves, but neither your partner's moves neither your other opponent's moves < 1349729622 9383 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was really fun :) < 1349729663 451136 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem is, in phantom go it's possible to do some sort of "scams", moves that are usually stupid and easily reprehensible, but in phantom go you're hoping your opponent won't guess what you did < 1349729697 582484 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here in phantom rengo, if the person who plays right after you is the opponent who can see your moves, you can't do that < 1349729722 278610 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's the other opponents, then maybe he won't guess it, and maybe your partner will guess it, so scamming is possible < 1349729768 640108 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unfortunately you can't set the order of turns in a way that doesn't advantage one team (that is, one of the teams will be able to scam every move, and the other will never be able to) < 1349729798 806195 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they said "the weaker team must take white (and have that huge advantage" < 1349729808 718203 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsurprinsigly, the weakest team won the tournament < 1349729833 374834 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why did you stop playing nomic? < 1349729854 805542 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you play balanced marseillais phantom rengo? < 1349729887 961014 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of balanced go or marseillais go < 1349730050 929822 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some funny stuff about the rules of go, though < 1349730057 792280 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, it is possible to repeat the position < 1349730084 254259 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could have just say "it's forbidden to play a move that repeats a position" but nooooo that would have been too simple < 1349730142 679548 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they started by saying "you cannot take back an opponent's stone immediately after it was played, in that very precise shape [diagram here]" (and the shape in question is called a ko and is the most frequent way to repeat a position < 1349730166 769140 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then if you combine three kos on the board, you can repeat the position without immediately taking back the stone! < 1349730191 655169 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could have just say "ok, it's forbidden to play a move that repeats a position" but nooooo that would have been too simple < 1349730207 224248 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they said "if the position is repeated three times because of a triple ko, the game is null" < 1349730212 9384 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to set up a one-time cron thing < 1349730219 824686 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like an alarm clock < 1349730242 235895 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT it's actually possible to repeat the position in other ways (though honestly I have never see them in actual games) < 1349730257 609534 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atriq: what's a cron thing? < 1349730285 493302 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Alarm_Clock_Radio < 1349730377 342716 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so eveyr country made its own set of rules, addressing all problems in a different way < 1349730393 588826 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen, Linux utility used to time commands < 1349730560 746834 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want 'at' < 1349730579 504090 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo mplayer -really-quiet -loop 0 ~/wakeup.mp3 | at 09:00 < 1349730629 658725 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1349730677 390410 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never heard of balanced go or marseillais go either, but I have heard of balanced marseillais chess. < 1349730748 531186 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodnight < 1349730749 794749 :atriq!~nathan@host-2-99-93-33.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1349731078 422890 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349731240 592810 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, we do that sometimes < 1349731253 695294 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've even played "inflation go" a few times < 1349731275 782479 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :black plays one move, white plays two, black plays three, etc. < 1349731316 407665 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of silly though, because it becomes quickly so easy to capture that you have to waste all your moves to protect yourself < 1349731362 74372 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have another idea: Three players go where each player cannot see the stones belonging to the player who plays before him in the turn order, but you can see your own and the next player's stones. < 1349731397 20279 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1349731398 603525 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What will you consider trying to eat? Go stones? < 1349731411 758661 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually multiplayer go is already quite original in itself < 1349731427 61642 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i didn't get around to that eating yet. < 1349731428 420926 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we never play it because of that stupid "there's no third color" limitation < 1349731462 77390 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but playing multiplayer go is definitely on my list of things to do at least one in my life < 1349731464 538659 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is because you don't have the stones, I guess, then buy more stones and paint them a different color, or use the computer < 1349731473 866894 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will surely be slices of bread, though. < 1349731494 501492 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, another thing on my list is "write a go program that can support many many many variants" < 1349731519 842378 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i have CHOCOLATE < 1349731533 924512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically so do i < 1349731552 712906 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm not going to eat that for a meal < 1349731554 855656 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I want to know why there's a "technically" in that sentence < 1349731584 86403 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: Because otherwise it looks too short. And actually you do want to know and this is the reason. < 1349731586 599305 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically you may not < 1349731620 998623 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so transparent < 1349731628 802792 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically i am insane < 1349731653 580122 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically this is a sentence < 1349731672 645083 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: Computer has gone to sleep. < 1349731743 340856 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, technically it lacked a capital and a period < 1349731760 67538 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically i expected that comment < 1349731810 679830 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well technically you got what you paid for! < 1349731815 374984 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no you didn't < 1349731883 515590 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically i don't think i paid < 1349732273 468023 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-163-223-177.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349732280 879927 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-24-31-176.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1349732573 726046 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I had an interesting idea for a potentially interesting BF derivative a while back < 1349732579 125649 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eliminate . and , because they're unnecessary < 1349732583 829842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then create one command that does + or - at random < 1349732591 755542 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one that does < or > at random < 1349732595 856918 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :leaving [ ] the same as before < 1349732611 553308 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably using bignum cells, but it doesn't really matter < 1349732630 163653 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can zero cells with [+] and nonzero them with [+]+ so you can simulate a binary tape < 1349732635 558180 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the < and > I'm less sure about < 1349732642 160000 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tape infinite both ways, obviously) < 1349732848 566363 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : [14:15] hmm, I take it Haskell doesn't have ignore in its standard library, on the basis that it's completely useless? < 1349732857 996909 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that supposed to do < 1349732885 800429 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore x y = y < 1349732896 103271 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was asking ais523 < 1349732901 917013 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just making shit up, ignore me ;) ) < 1349732912 262606 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that would be const id < 1349732930 282654 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Haskell have a "computed NEXT FROM" monad? < 1349732952 778051 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ^ < 1349733184 314523 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in the Ndeql discussion above i had the idea that you might be able to use parity, this might apply to your derivative too < 1349733292 144071 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>] seeks to the nearest zero cell either to the left or to the right < 1349733430 726889 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :[++>] seeks to an even cell, although not necessarily the closest one < 1349733437 15179 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a closest < 1349733461 977092 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t flip const < 1349733463 139785 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall b a. a -> b -> b < 1349733522 591722 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1349733539 418497 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "const id" is more right, as evidenced by < 1349733540 427815 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats ais523 in absentia -----### < 1349733541 389727 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :@. pl djinn a -> b -> b < 1349733541 558761 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = const id < 1349733564 749710 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess ais523 used ignore < 1349733718 56145 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote ddarius partial.application < 1349733718 654164 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ddarius says: (f x) is a partial application iff f x == (curry (uncurry f) x) < 1349733764 734707 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful. < 1349733767 525024 :TeruFSX_!~quassel@65-128-188-237.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1349733841 989036 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1349733843 246326 :TeruFSX!~quassel@65-128-188-237.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349733869 420333 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t curry < 1349733871 18902 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c < 1349734157 98476 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: why did you stop playing nomic? <-- too much real life intervening, i think. < 1349734163 193003 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ocaml has "ignore x = ()", though that may not be a useful combinator < 1349734192 157283 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's what he meant, then haskell _does_ have such a thing. < 1349734194 111704 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric ::t void < 1349734195 271510 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in scope: `void' < 1349734208 486985 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a pure lazy language, it's stunningly pointless :) < 1349734211 366694 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :... lambdabot is getting _old_. < 1349734244 66459 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@djinn Not (Not (Either (Not a) a)) < 1349734244 750438 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :f a = void (a (Left (\ b -> a (Right b)))) < 1349734252 95904 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude Control.Monad> :t void < 1349734252 176679 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :void :: Functor f => f a -> f () < 1349734255 731821 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one. < 1349734261 207351 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle void < 1349734261 408141 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foreign.Marshal.Error void :: IO a -> IO () < 1349734261 519343 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control.Monad void :: Functor f => f a -> f () < 1349734261 600127 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :package void < 1349734279 191486 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that void. < 1349734286 604131 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about void :: Void -> a < 1349734300 121357 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, at the level of /monads/ it makes sense. < 1349734302 473880 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't be an ignore, would it? < 1349734311 623322 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I agree that [>] will set the pointer to either the nearest nonzero cell to the right or to the left < 1349734320 240856 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but [++>] I'm not sure does what you say < 1349734341 720335 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: i'm assuming only parity matters for the last one < 1349734344 92417 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not without embarrassing side effects < 1349734349 323398 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhh ok < 1349734418 508374 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that helps much though < 1349734445 608082 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm you can emulate finite-tape brainfuck easily < 1349734462 341534 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: how so? < 1349734488 47855 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum wait my brain is wrong < 1349734510 563398 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah no that doesn't work at all < 1349734517 839600 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if it did that would be only 2-cell brainfuck < 1349734550 177996 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not gonna explain because it doesn't make any sense anyway < 1349734589 538089 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still slightly miffed over ais523 leaving immediately after proposing it. < 1349734683 478280 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's a nonnegligible danger about being interested in math or other sciences < 1349734704 797112 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when someone presents you with a problem late in the evening and YOU CANNOT SOLVE IT < 1349734718 191494 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you know there is no way you're gonna sleep until you solve it < 1349734726 456834 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, can ruin some sleep yeah < 1349734753 353910 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although in this case it's more like i'm stubbornly avoiding trying any more, because he left. < 1349734798 776835 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I was younger I used to go to the same place near the beach every summer; at the harbour there was (among other tourist shops) a magician < 1349734822 28477 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he performed tricks and sold them < 1349734827 20110 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :busking < 1349734840 682091 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most were easy to understand (not necessarily the precise trick, but at least the idea) < 1349734843 650167 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :a fine anglamerican tradition < 1349734858 604650 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there was one with a piped card deck that was just mind blowing < 1349734867 8623 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know theree is a busking forum? < 1349734877 374680 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a whole subforum devoted to svengali pitch? < 1349734886 882340 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :busking, right < 1349734903 42139 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except he was not showing his talent so much as his pre-made piped objects < 1349734930 961401 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this numero lasted for about a minute or two < 1349734942 675427 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"piped"? < 1349734950 736956 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :during which the piped card deck was laying inside its box, on the table < 1349734951 340077 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :gaffed probably < 1349734961 128022 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :^oerjan < 1349734967 479164 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you insinuating my vocabulary is not wide enough to tell that story? :( < 1349734987 759212 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nonstandard at least < 1349734990 513689 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :please continue < 1349735040 486986 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so the numero went on *without the magician touching the cards* < 1349735044 543859 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats quintopia for explaining with an equally obscure synonym -----### < 1349735055 649503 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so basically he was just talking) < 1349735068 77060 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he asked a member of the audience to think of a card < 1349735079 455895 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: gimmicked, then < 1349735090 204046 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1349735095 665370 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :that card was the only face up one? < 1349735105 742792 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXACTLY < 1349735107 543425 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :or face down possibly < 1349735116 791362 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :face down, actually < 1349735124 723388 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :invisible deck then. < 1349735131 795940 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after the first time that I saw him perform this I couldn't sleep < 1349735137 376569 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I came back everyday < 1349735152 240327 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was unfortunately one of the tricks he performed the least often < 1349735159 435328 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1349735166 441745 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry about your insomnia < 1349735176 332442 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after some time I decided to buy it < 1349735187 805076 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i asked if he could perform it one last time < 1349735195 718532 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and while he did it I UNDERSTOOD < 1349735200 151461 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's ruined now. < 1349735215 694438 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the downside of magicianhood < 1349735223 452016 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can no longer be a magical spectator < 1349735228 929890 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the magician is very very good < 1349735244 777486 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but invisible deck is an astounding trick < 1349735248 807251 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, other tricks, you *know* that there is a trick, so I'm rarely dazzled or anything (though that didn't stop me from watching his show every year) < 1349735250 448721 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a brainwae deck myself < 1349735258 700409 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :*brainwave < 1349735268 471955 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in this he didn't so much as touch the cards < 1349735273 185502 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :g2g < 1349735295 540873 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard of all the terms you're using < 1349735337 248028 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly the box was hollow and there was an assistant gnome hiding under the table. hth. < 1349735394 11270 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why he did it so rarely, couldn't afford the gnome all the time. < 1349735427 75140 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my you just understood the most mind blowing trick I've ever seen WITHOUT EVEN WATCHING IT < 1349735435 852927 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did? :P < 1349735447 199869 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup that's exactly how it worked < 1349735459 819946 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well except for the part involving a gnome < 1349735460 339725 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1349735520 821845 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :my jokes: now omniscient too < 1349735561 494413 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :omnijan < 1349735658 974935 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :real food this time -> < 1349735662 115085 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe) < 1349735740 189771 :heroux!~heroux@5070823C.static.ziggozakelijk.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1349735741 67333 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny how that "delay" instruction is so rarely included in esolangs but so present in esoprogrammers < 1349735917 272482 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :random things to do when bored: write a banana scheme program that returns true or false depending on whether the riemann hypothesis is correct or not < 1349736097 546909 :Gregor!codu@codu.org TOPIC #esoteric :BEWARE THE ØRJANIST MØØSE | I, for one, welcome our new hash function overlords | E5081A06F9E364E179B336A2C6D6831D4B50CD7739C7E1565E03EBF2 | God made the natural numbers; all else is the work of ZARDOZ | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki < 1349736112 18260 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please read Chris Pressey's message http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Zzo38/FurryScript < 1349736132 820990 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this is a good idea. < 1349736182 744055 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did you think is good idea? < 1349736239 798408 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to move furryscript to main namespace < 1349736253 907443 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then write that on the talk page I linked to, please. < 1349736262 391937 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you have account, isn't it? < 1349736326 148329 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing i was wondering is if it an esolang or not < 1349736329 148074 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, are we expecting Chris Pressey to take my opinion on that matter into account? You have no idea what good it does to my self-confidence! < 1349736332 703194 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+is < 1349736357 521633 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i prove his languages TC and he barely notices < 1349736363 511297 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: I don't know, but if you write it there, it can be decided who does and who does not take your opinion on that matter into account. < 1349736378 973357 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes that is too what I was wondering the same thing, which is why I replied as I did there. < 1349736446 636694 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but you do that to everyone, maybe he'd notice if you stopped proving his languages tc! < 1349736452 193937 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes FurryScript furry anyway < 1349736464 953266 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the fur. < 1349736465 950163 :Gregor!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh. < 1349736497 560599 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: The name of the first file which was written with it, although recently I found some more mistakes in it that I fixed; the original had many more mistakes but I fixed most of them. < 1349736735 770116 :Nisstyre-laptop!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1349736755 582047 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey if we all go edit the page at the same time, are we gonna erase other people's edits? < 1349736779 664879 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: I don't think so; I think MediaWiki has stuff in it to prevent that from happening. < 1349736790 838549 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is mediawiki gonna do something like warning us "beware, that page has already been edited since you clicked the edit link" < 1349736820 359451 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think I've heard that from somewhere (something about concurrent programming) but I have no idea how it can work < 1349736863 726000 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if I make a minimal edit on one part of a page and someone makes a minimal edit on another part of that page, I could understand how both edits are "compatible" but otherwise... < 1349736898 819752 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will warn you. < 1349736924 899059 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: it _does_ try to split into compatible edits, but it will simply warn you otherwise, and you have to merge them manually. < 1349736980 195152 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be a pain. < 1349736982 599025 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for instance if two people add truth-machine implementations on the truth-machine page, there will be no warning? < 1349737030 909735 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as they are in separate sections, i don't think so. at least it works that way for undoing stuff. < 1349737056 885239 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@78.245.243.132 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you can revert an old edit without reverting more recent edits? nice < 1349737067 161112 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1349737092 114760 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall experiencing that if two people make the exact same edit, neither will get a warning. < 1349737127 545916 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who will it show up as? < 1349737127 799434 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although only the first to save is credited. < 1349737135 577644 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1349737472 399057 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1349737580 133538 :Frooxius!~Frooxius@cust-101.ktknet.cz QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1349738223 842334 :fungot!fis@selene.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1349738363 508928 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has happened to me with git commits as well < 1349738411 547575 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :a coworker and i both make the exact same change, they push to master, i rebase onto master < 1349738423 489103 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of showing a merge conflict, git just drops my commit < 1349738441 345111 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has the same git-patch-id as one of the commits it's rebasing past < 1349738850 99630 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is rebase a history mutating thing? < 1349738867 962427 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, well, I guess everything is, but isn't there something that tampers with history beyond just adding new stuff at the end < 1349738891 850059 :monqy!~help@pool-98-108-214-230.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1349738903 240277 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mutates monkey < 1349738905 961663 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy < 1349738921 14135 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there some way to make up the "computed NEXT FROM" monad in Haskell? < 1349739059 189400 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: my guess is "yes" < 1349739073 595233 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you even know how? < 1349739082 486512 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, except what's NEXT FROM < 1349739103 105342 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is something in CLC-INTERCAL, like COME FROM but you can return to where it came from < 1349739133 117592 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a control flow concept, the Cont monad exists, and out of that you can build many control structures. < 1349739161 873302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did think of that, if it is something with continuation monad < 1349739273 293749 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1349739373 905730 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have something like do { label 1 (...); x <- someStatement; nextFrom (someThingEvaluatingTo1) (someStatement) } then a problem would seem to be that you cannot get a value for x if you skip over the action setting it... < 1349739427 358216 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i think you'd have to restrict it to a list of resultless actions < 1349739444 31540 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :same problem with just COME FROM and GOTO, of course < 1349739486 546497 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that if it is a Kleisli morphism it has that problem, so it would have to be a not Kleisli morphism, if you would otherwise to need like that < 1349739508 622189 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what that is anyway < 1349739604 677832 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think you could make something that worked with a structure like runLabels [ Label 1 (...), Unlabeled (...), NextFrom (someThingEvaluatingTo1) (...), ... ] < 1349739655 346860 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that runLabels can parse the general position of everything before starting running subactions < 1349739753 195332 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOTO backward may work though even with the "getCC" and stuff I have, where the function runCC = runCT <*> id; can do a goto backward to the getCC < 1349739785 226715 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, backward jumps don't have that problem < 1349739925 393108 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :runLabels wouldn't even need a different monad, i think. it's just a control structure that can be used in any monad. < 1349739931 221056 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do forward, either you would have some kind of fake result to check and then to go back, or to make it something other than Kleisli morphisms, such as haivng nextFrom :: Label -> m x -> m x < 1349740012 785178 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1349740034 535677 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or like nextFrom :: Label -> M x -> M x -> M x you need both monads arguments I think < 1349740166 785419 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe you want to be able to compute the label inside the monad too < 1349740194 308004 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course, otherwise it's not much of a computed NEXT FROM < 1349740219 38364 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes < 1349740247 867413 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand you don't want the label computation to be able to mutate values < 1349740253 26006 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :just read them < 1349740268 948922 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, although depending on the monad it may make possible that any value it changes is not changed. < 1349740389 323489 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe you want: nextFrom :: M Label -> M () -> M x -> M x; < 1349740736 740809 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the yafgc comic seems to have got a real schedule slip < 1349740778 148241 :kmc!~keegan@ec2-23-23-43-158.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the short answer is "yes, rebase mutates history" but to actually understand what that means you have to understand a few things about git