< 1345939309 746212 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-127-183.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345939362 551845 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-127-183.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345939423 545281 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey pikhq_? < 1345939449 863452 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember that company we thought owned the world until we looked closer and realised they only owned like a percent of it? < 1345939453 581883 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was it called again? < 1345939530 345525 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't remember at all. < 1345939697 383565 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. < 1345939717 285503 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that 'deposit-" and "company" were there somewhere. < 1345941400 714572 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-127-183.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345941934 193062 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345941944 684939 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: "just intonation" is a tricky thing for sufficiently complex music. < 1345941961 999849 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1345941982 540898 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might in some cases have a lot of similar notes that are all approximated by the same eqaul-temperament note. So maybe that would compress worse? < 1345941985 556190 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see why it should be so tricky, it's just intonation < 1345941988 828915 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But why do you care?) < 1345941996 637432 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan++ < 1345942056 299728 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Then there's the nondescript design, and the marriage of necessity to business features like the TrackPoint (the red nub in the middle of the keyboard). The nub especially feels extraneous for most users now that the trackpad actually works the way it should, but business being business, alienating a mass of outmoded users isn't going to fly." -- gizmodo < 1345942061 304029 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow gizmodo you did not just say that < 1345942114 206799 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man that's a lot of needless Latinate. < 1345942151 373647 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I didn't know I was a business user. :-( < 1345942165 469390 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently anyone who types a lot and dosen't want to get RSI from reaching to the mouse is "outmoded" < 1345942165 659402 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't use a ThinkPad at all anymore, actually. < 1345942177 988567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when I did I preferred the TrackPoint® to the touchpad. < 1345942219 558670 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you use now? < 1345942277 318091 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh. Trackpoint's really kinda handy if you need small amounts of mouse movement. < 1345942301 278412 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1345942303 422015 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A touchpad's a bit better if you're going to be primarily mousing. Or, y'know, a real mouse. < 1345942305 680768 :Rain777!~IceChat9@190.194.68.225 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345942307 890741 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the Thinkpad nipple is awesome. < 1345942324 358833 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Dell XPS 15. It's not as good as the ThinkPad but it works. < 1345942337 591478 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you can just use *both* depending on what's optimal for your current task. < 1345942368 542879 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, my current machine has both < 1345942369 537787 :Rain777!~IceChat9@190.194.68.225 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good evening !! < 1345942375 748760 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Small touchpads are horrible. Tap-to-click is horrible as well. Apple touchpads are almost as good as nipples, though. < 1345942397 485741 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, for a wasd-style game the Trackpoint is pretty awesome I'd imagine... < 1345942404 432085 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use the trackpoint when i need a bit of mousing in the middle of writing something < 1345942416 687078 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use the touchpad when i'm just reading websites, mostly because it does the right edge scroll thing < 1345942428 896355 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that there the mouse is being used more as directional input rather than pointing. < 1345942445 278507 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used the hold-middle-mouse-button-down-and-move-nipple thing for scrolling. < 1345942448 546318 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to change the way I use computers to require minimal mouse input. < 1345942451 616342 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the X1 Carbon is pretty expensive :/ < 1345942459 287729 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much nicer than the side scroll thing with a touchpad IMO. < 1345942462 611098 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Have you considered using a tiling WM? < 1345942468 126627 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though computers overall keep getting cheaper < 1345942470 144033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mouse is good for analog things, but very few of the things I do are analog. < 1345942481 385261 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember when any halfway decent computer (for its time) would be at least $2000 < 1345942484 394405 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I have used a tiling WM! < 1345942498 196329 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: But I barely use the mouse with my current non-tiling WM. < 1345942541 16307 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to use the mouse more efficiently, you should switch to a toroidal mouse geometry < 1345942544 43422 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously < 1345942548 920979 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how Ubuntu’s Unity project has enabled much more keyboard accessibility than before. < 1345942561 112202 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$2000 practically buys you a behemoth nowadays. < 1345942581 451401 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome Rain777 < 1345942588 361387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: It has? < 1345942591 490059 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rain777: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1345942597 849817 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What’s toroidal mouse geometry? < 1345942601 846507 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah < 1345942613 101370 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you move the mouse off the edge of the screen, it teleports to the opposite edge < 1345942622 831677 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have synergy configured to do this < 1345942662 4830 :Rain777!~IceChat9@190.194.68.225 PART :#esoteric < 1345942664 361968 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can launch programs by hitting Windows™ and typing a part of the program name; you can select menu items by hitting Alt and typing a part of the menu item name; you can switch to a specific window with Windows™-{1,2,3,…} etc. < 1345942692 297404 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: Wasn't it more application-oriented like Mac OS X? < 1345942704 808155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except done even worse. < 1345942707 90955 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, yeah, a specific application. < 1345942727 163061 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno about worse since i’m not that familiar with OSX, but i’ve certainly liked Unity. < 1345942728 544093 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a program which lets me launch programs by typing part of the name < 1345942731 157549 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called a terminal ;) < 1345942746 50957 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION http://twitter.com/1990sLinuxUser mode < 1345942763 540573 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, “setsid fire && exit” is convenient indeed. < 1345942771 870678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just about every mainstream X11 desktop environment has had Alt-F2 bound to that for quite a while. < 1345942790 855888 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: why setsid? < 1345942791 447141 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-F2 doesn’t know about applications’ descriptions and keywords. < 1345942815 581850 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xmonad is not mainstream :/ < 1345942816 848955 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: To have the terminal window go away immediately. < 1345942820 534177 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously because it involves monads < 1345942826 846198 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :xburrito < 1345942827 515165 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: isn't «firefox & exit» good enough? < 1345942836 869482 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh: you have running jobs. < 1345942838 847307 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :% < 1345942846 770385 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: xmonad has never claimed to be mainstream. < 1345942857 800166 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, zsh < 1345942868 426611 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...It's too mainstream for me, though. < 1345942879 868158 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember back when xmonad was called "thunk"? < 1345942883 146297 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should finish that window manager i started writing < 1345942888 919023 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i could be a cool kid < 1345942894 153252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Do it! < 1345942894 299304 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: was it really? < 1345942895 504204 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use it. < 1345942899 410346 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What window manager did you start to writing? < 1345942905 128625 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yep, that was the name before "xmonad". < 1345942909 628979 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :a static tiling wm in haskell < 1345942915 476492 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with nicer code than xmonad ;) < 1345942921 583074 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that xmonad's code is terrible, but mine is nicer :) < 1345942931 602866 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nicest code is code that you don't write in the first place. < 1345942935 588011 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore kmc's WM has the nicest code. < 1345942957 445749 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1345942958 580985 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i have almost 500 lines of code < 1345942962 649665 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they do not a window manager make < 1345942969 506658 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we all know xmonad is only 500 lines of code except not at all < 1345942981 206833 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it as good as xmonad 0.1? < 1345943000 471460 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You should put your code up! < 1345943007 537398 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's basically a WM already. < 1345943017 301669 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :much of that is a SDL-based mockup of the keyboard UI < 1345943028 927258 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :designing a good UI for static tiling operations is not that easy < 1345943035 562315 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should look at what other WMs do < 1345943038 628795 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no idea how the keyboard UI would work for a WM that works the way he wants. < 1345943075 13482 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if the way I want is the same as the way you want, but it seems close enough. < 1345943083 601412 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You used to use Ion3, right? < 1345943085 264114 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my model, each workspace is a tree where branching nodes are horizontal or vertical splits < 1345943087 358646 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hehe, 1990sLinuxUser is awesome. < 1345943098 250906 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: i know, right? my favorite part is the background image < 1345943103 310678 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Indeed! < 1345943125 709439 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the conceptually simplest UI for navigating this tree is to have a key for parent, child 1, child 2 < 1345943130 769311 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think this kinda sucks to use < 1345943142 183876 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably you also want keys for in-order traversal of the leaves < 1345943149 845700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a reason to special-case workspaces? < 1345943170 705136 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, each split is binary, except the split into workspaces < 1345943178 961700 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to them just being the root of an xmonad "Full"-style thing. < 1345943183 991674 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1345943185 220968 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each split has a parameter to say how space is divided, except the split into workspaces < 1345943195 55054 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was thinking of n-ary splits. < 1345943204 998687 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have those, but the second point would remain < 1345943212 76591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Ion3 any window can be a "workspace" of its own. < 1345943219 194462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have floating workspaces and so on. < 1345943224 204488 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's cool < 1345943260 971056 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also any "window" can have multiple windows inside it as tabs. < 1345943284 514006 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion is how the keyboard UI works would be: All window and widgets are hover focus, and you can push the key to switch between widgets (such as TAB) and key to switch between windows (such as the window manager's key and TAB together), and doing so move mouse pointer to that position. < 1345943304 904258 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm mainly concerned with how you create, adjust, and delete splits < 1345943309 195185 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think it would be best to have both tiled and floating windows. < 1345943362 189388 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never put in the effort to learn how ion actually models all this < 1345943373 507140 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the outside it seemed excessively complicated < 1345943384 383302 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: At least how I would do is, to adjust splits have one of the mouse buttons assigned for that purpose when you click the border using that button. < 1345943413 567457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My list of "window managers that seemed interesting" also includes Enlightenment, although it's a floating WM. < 1345943416 662290 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember why. < 1345943466 823305 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have the widgets basically Athena-style except that keyboard commands can also be used instead of or in addition to the mouse. < 1345943591 393994 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the choices for static tiling wms, anyway? < 1345943592 771713 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people might not like this of course; some people may prefer programs with Motif or GTK widgets. I prefer SDL. < 1345943605 546878 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You should get the WM to a working state before you're too busy to! < 1345943675 570251 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1345943684 948166 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In one sense all floating WMs are static. < 1345943696 681615 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you did say "tiling". < 1345943726 104938 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion/notion, stumpwm, ratpoison, wmii, ? < 1345943775 408118 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think awesome is dynamic and the name annoys me anyway < 1345943776 590362 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wmii is very similar to dwm, isn't it? < 1345943793 39179 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :“notion” would be an awesome name for a window manager. < 1345943801 187251 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: "notion" exists. < 1345943803 505215 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a fork of Ion. < 1345943805 788412 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1345943819 182475 :derdon_!~derdon@p5DE8A905.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345943821 373074 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wmii is from suckless.org which also annoys me < 1345943833 406038 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, annoyance is a full time job < 1345943844 281574 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the thing is, xmonad is Good Enough < 1345943857 592856 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Xfce is also Good Enough. < 1345943857 950478 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think the window system should instead of X, it should be based on SDL. They can include some built-in commands for clipboard (although it could just be /proc/$WINPID/userfs/clipboard if you have that kind of user filesystem mode), fix 8x8 and 8x12 whatever monochrome fonts, etc < 1345943869 845175 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, the difference between xfce and xmonad is small enough that I haven't bothered to set it up. < 1345943877 902145 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get by fine in xmonad with just full and two-column layouts < 1345943898 201826 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, gimp now has a "one window" mode which works pretty well < 1345943909 939622 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :xmonad's floating window support is pretty wonky < 1345943925 281243 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used GIMP with xmonad. < 1345943933 57205 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1345943948 488108 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Oddly enough, I think you'd at least somewhat like Wayland. < 1345943955 57495 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea of having a WM inside an application kind of annoys me. < 1345943967 94155 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though the application knows more about its windows. < 1345943970 39587 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Yes I do somewhat like Wayland. < 1345943990 536534 :derdon!~derdon@p4FD95BC2.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1345944010 937787 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1345944056 559650 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the window managers i use are xmonad, screen, irssi, chromium, and finch < 1345944057 602033 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it’s made into a library that *everything* uses so that all the windows behave the same way and look alike and if you can still move and close windows owned by processes that are stuck, i’m totally happy with it. < 1345944059 852744 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-127-183.hsd1.md.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345944078 766621 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't do splits with any except the first < 1345944094 130752 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :finch supports overlapping windows of any size, it's completely ridiculous < 1345944105 563831 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also vim. < 1345944176 111475 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't use vim for window management < 1345944362 823464 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok we're trying out the "irssi.so" window manager for GNT, the curses tooklit used by Finch < 1345944476 984588 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :trip report forthcoming < 1345944496 256930 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :We? < 1345944539 635982 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, the royal "we"... you know, the editorial < 1345944687 655625 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A magazine I read when I was much younger had an editoral, which was called something like "words of the editor". < 1345944702 236462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except it had a handwritten font in which "editor" looked a lot like "crow". < 1345944715 32262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I thought it was "words of the crow". < 1345944889 289651 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’d like to have a horizontally looping desktop of arbitrary width and a height equal to the monitor’s height. I’d like to be able to place windows to the desktop side-by-side (never overlapping and never with space between them) and to scroll horizontally whenever its width is greater than that of my monitor. The desktop should grow and shrink automatically to fit the windows. Scrolling should snap < 1345944891 822549 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows’ left-hand edges to the monitor’s left-hand border, and moving windows’ right-hand edges to resize them should snap to the monitor’s right-hand border. < 1345944951 693426 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be keyboard shortcuts to scroll to the next/previous window (so that their left-hand edge will match with the monitor’s left-hand border). < 1345945017 708680 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: what's wrong with suckless.org? < 1345945053 621860 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :One could have e.g. a browser and a terminal side-by-side so that they fill the monitor exactly, but also a music player next to the terminal so that if you scroll to the right, the terminal and the music player will fill the monitor exactly. < 1345945118 349540 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion: that sounds like an interesting idea < 1345945146 606180 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe it'd be even better to be able to have a list of 'views' of the windows < 1345945187 227853 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could implement that, but you could also be able to, say, always have your IRC client on the left and effectively scroll through what else should appear on the right < 1345945234 11954 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you'd want to embed a scripting language (perhaps Python? A mini-Lisp?) to programmatically define the views < 1345945244 812259 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just having a set of canned modes < 1345945293 445973 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, all this might have been done already < 1345945700 655221 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: oh, i'm probably biased because of the person who complained that mosh doesn't work in st, and talked like a cult member < 1345945772 960579 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You have a lot of biases. :-( < 1345945775 666555 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1345945786 727385 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, maybe you should join #lesswrong and get them to fix it ;) < 1345945819 762085 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general i feel like all this "suckless" "minimalist" stuff means "works only for the author, comes with a screed about how this is all anyone should need" < 1345945824 462865 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wondered if there was anything I should know about suckless, since they listed my IRC client on their "Stuff that rocks" page < 1345945848 146305 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's not a criticism of suckless.org specifically, just of the attitude they are latching onto) < 1345945872 693807 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, now I understand... because I have an attitude that could be characterised that way too < 1345945908 456398 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :any feature you do not personally use is "bloat" < 1345945925 897290 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 10 half-baked solutions to the same problem is better than 1 complete solution < 1345945931 325118 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the half-baked solutions are each "minimalist" < 1345945950 870474 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other extreme is perhaps more dangerous. < 1345945956 518071 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :both extremes are dangerous, yes < 1345945998 879206 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best is software which has many features, but which is architected in such a way that you don't pay for the features you don't use < 1345946010 959364 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't pay in terms of performance, but most importantly in terms of code complexity and bugs < 1345946026 957728 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the features you aren't using should not cause bugs in the parts you are using < 1345946029 975632 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously this is very hard < 1345946036 703453 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's an example of that? < 1345946044 473211 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me < 1345946074 646367 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, kmc. < 1345946094 536514 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a programming language interpreter < 1345946101 783550 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not affected by bugs in python modules i haven't loaded < 1345946118 429633 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many people describe C++ that way. < 1345946128 249306 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I don't think that's quite right. < 1345946128 850552 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and module maintainers have relatively little ability to force the core python interpreter to adopt bad design decisions < 1345946137 362225 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language itself is a pretty resiliant abstraction barrier < 1345946151 292383 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, but they're talking only about space/time usage and not about cognitive burden < 1345946157 267866 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1345946203 370338 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345946213 58600 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending on the program and how it is, some things can be external files and separate programs that can be processed separately or piped or whatever. < 1345946250 575952 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, since we're on the subject of software development... < 1345946256 895020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh-oh. < 1345946267 169488 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm currently trying to decide how to implement scripting in quIRC < 1345946297 895957 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invent your own language which is backwards-compatible with IRC commands. < 1345946298 432248 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some ideas (and a half-finished spec) for a scripting language, but I had another idea too: symbionts < 1345946304 362959 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345946323 339667 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345946324 157078 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: Probably it depend what you are doing with? There are a few possible ways. < 1345946325 257627 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, make quIRC invoke symbiont processes (the scripts) and talk an application protocol to them < 1345946375 657716 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you gain the ability to write scripts in any language, but otoh you can only do things there are hooks for < 1345946480 631342 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that the present phase of the moon is a waxing gibbous. < 1345946490 282618 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like the worst one for Armstrong to die during. < 1345946519 532928 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least what I have done in PHIRC is the script commands and local commands are like IRC except you put a slash in front; since PHIRC is written in an interpreted language you can also use that interpreter too, though. So, partially your choice will depend what programming language you use, what user interface, and what operating system. < 1345946525 503219 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Why? < 1345946546 996115 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gibbouses are the dumbest phase. < 1345946573 312946 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't even describe it very well, it's just "that phase that's a bit more than half full". < 1345946607 630717 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just describe it by the degrees in ecliptic longitude? < 1345946610 187153 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The Moon is Waxing Gibbous (67% of Full). Full moon in NetHack in 5 days. < 1345946626 666562 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from #nethack:!pom) < 1345946646 480726 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you soundnfury for telling me something that I had just demonstrated knowledge of. < 1345946648 568669 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: C, curses-like, *nix < 1345946667 716617 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or by percentage? < 1345946678 180169 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I was giving you a more precise description than "a bit more than half full" < 1345946683 664817 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to describe it as "gibbous" if you don't want to. < 1345946699 863986 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :# Do, do, do, the funky gibbous < 1345946705 100 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :# we are here to show you how < 1345946773 165223 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun ecliptic longitude at 3 Virgo, Moon at 23 Sagittarius, so you subtract 263-153=110 degrees. (180 degrees = full moon) < 1345946827 56958 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that assume the solar and lunar orbits are coplanar? < 1345946829 33160 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the direction you can know the moon is going forward motion (counterclockwise on the diagram) so you can tell on the diagram the direction of wax/wane, and by aspect lines, whether the full moon is slightly before or slightly after or exact. < 1345946858 100543 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm not sure I follow your PHIRC explanation < 1345946866 865686 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: It would seem so. But actually if they are then it is an eclipse. This orbit is used for measurement. < 1345946884 821530 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So actually it is approximate but you have to use some plane of measurement, so the ecliptic is used.) < 1345946927 716738 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely what you want to measure is something to do with the proportion of the moon's solid angle that's lit, as viewed from Earth < 1345946933 639063 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if it is actually moon exactly opposite to the sun, then it will be a lunar eclipse because the Earth is in the way. < 1345946987 347488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So using all the angles it would never actually light the entire face of moon seen by Earth because the Earth is in the way. < 1345946993 712948 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but at "new moon" if it's not a solar eclipse then it'll be a (very very slim) crescent < 1345947013 128943 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that too. < 1345947017 816952 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well, it's not important < 1345947033 417682 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using ecliptic longitude only is what is generally done to calculate the phase of moon, I think. < 1345947122 212094 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another common way to calculate phase of moon is by the time instead of by angle. < 1345947123 770531 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe this "don't pay for features you don't use" is actually the most important reason to move things out of a language core and into the standard library < 1345947189 11949 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Yes, I agree you should put thing in a library. Even with Forth you can include most of the control structures and a lot of other things including syntactic stuff in a standard library too. With other programming languages the way it is done will differ. < 1345947246 458001 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Do you know the problem "generate a string of the form /[abc]{N}/ such that no substring appears twice in a row"? < 1345947269 105089 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you mentioned it before < 1345947278 798985 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1345947282 701217 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :de bruijn sequences? < 1345947287 742697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, unrelated. < 1345947292 632031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think?) < 1345947323 553 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is this going to relate to prime numbers in some way? < 1345947331 418462 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just a hunch) < 1345947332 223387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :De Bruijn sequences are sequences such that you can figure out a substring's position from its contents. < 1345947346 804058 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, which means each one appears at most once < 1345947354 442428 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there is Ecclesiastical phase of moon, which is slightly off from the actual phase of moon and is used to calculate the date of Easter, due to tradition. < 1345947359 621049 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's for subsequences of a specific length < 1345947372 372503 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, please go on about this problem < 1345947447 255428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case you're allowed e.g. "abcacbabca" < 1345947461 454190 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're not allowed a sequence that contains "aa" or "abab" or "abcabc". < 1345947464 606033 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, twice *in a row* < 1345947466 300314 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i missed that < 1345947472 738430 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: doesn't "to go on about something" have a meaning /subtly/ different to what you meant? < 1345947493 652070 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :soundnfury: I think the meaning was clear here. < 1345947500 860712 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but it's still funny < 1345947505 480790 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't my nuts have a meaning subtly close to your face < 1345947512 414727 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they don't < 1345947534 405061 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1345947536 427837 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :glad that's settled < 1345947574 557230 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you can generate arbitrary-length sequences with this property. < 1345947596 404603 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you generate them? < 1345947601 552936 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll go for the symbiont method, and then _maybe_ implement my scripting language as just one option < 1345947647 664935 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I think you can do a tree search, though there may be a better way < 1345947678 373827 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. start with an a, now you can have either b or c (isomorphism, doesn't matter which, we'll say b, now there's no further isomorphism left) < 1345947725 304763 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now either we have an a next, so it must then be a c (can't have abaa or abab), or we have a c next, so either abac, abca or abcb (we can't have abcc) < 1345947753 592226 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on, I don't know if the tree keeps getting wider or if the branches start to terminate < 1345947770 129080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do it by generating and backtracking. < 1345947782 111953 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ie. if you start getting strings where you can't append any of [abc] without creating a repeat) < 1345947789 909054 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, i was wondering if there was a better way < 1345947792 356762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's much trickier to do it without, though it's possible. < 1345947807 36069 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is. < 1345947831 649109 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345947865 243383 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you do it? < 1345947876 249021 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do something recursive, is there some way to take a sequence and modify it so that you can concatenate the original and modified versions, thereby getting another valid string? < 1345947883 606487 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squarefree_word < 1345947924 243787 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1345947928 732259 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, nice < 1345948153 227644 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Thue-Morse sequence" is fun to say. < 1345948781 645978 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes OK I understand what you mean. Was there something like that on anarchy golf? < 1345948798 358675 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345948927 339990 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345948943 482030 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345949158 802267 :augur_!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345949159 173478 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345949667 540345 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked out the window and I can see the moon. < 1345949802 23096 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345949807 429509 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345950032 921099 :derdon_!~derdon@p5DE8A905.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345950390 540355 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345950406 824369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ask elliott Apparently "travelling" is the British spelling and "traveling" is the American spelling. < 1345950407 9545 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1345950421 55984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell elliott Can you make me British? :-( < 1345950421 243221 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1345950890 364061 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345951371 232581 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1345951375 516111 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-63.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345951385 296005 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-148-117.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1345951506 678564 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: What is interesting in southern CA? < 1345951545 38133 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kelso sand dunes < 1345951608 638443 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, that's rather far inland. < 1345951727 427043 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you going to southern CA? < 1345951736 269149 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. < 1345951861 158266 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what's remarkable? Is how much of England looks in no way like southern California. < 1345951933 931685 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your remark, then? < 1345951944 390556 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a quote < 1345951956 47510 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I possibly got it slightly wrong, not watched that for a while < 1345951983 44620 :soundnfury!~edward@109.176.207.75 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's from Austin Powers) < 1345952018 799222 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-151-215.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345952032 705598 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1345952042 271172 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a joke about how Southern California stands in for lots of places in films and tv < 1345952053 798304 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i went to school at a college used frequently for film shoots < 1345952067 311023 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-63.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1345952086 945637 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know someone who's going to go there soon. < 1345952091 791803 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a few weeks, I guess. < 1345952106 403932 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i gather that there are a lot of fun things to do in LA, most of which i have not done < 1345952118 334340 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never even went to the beach, despite living a few minutes' bike ride away for a summer < 1345952144 375524 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They say it's a good beach. I've never been. < 1345952148 933027 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1345952158 980678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The, uh, one in Los Angeles. < 1345952235 351069 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few < 1345952922 230412 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-255-16.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345952950 845796 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-151-215.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1345955019 590150 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :we alone on earth can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators < 1345955460 711617 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pass it on < 1345955480 176785 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I pass it on in my genes? < 1345955493 103388 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1345955578 293696 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345955607 29083 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-255-16.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1345956638 352230 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the next CTF should focus on misuse of cryptographic primitives, don't you think? < 1345956645 227144 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fantastic < 1345956745 855236 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Oh, that would be fun. < 1345956773 652698 :TeruFSX!~quassel@174-20-4-203.mpls.qwest.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345956775 978782 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should tell them! < 1345956779 585279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or make it. < 1345956783 881846 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told gdb already < 1345956821 321242 :TeruFSX!~quassel@174-20-4-203.mpls.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345957347 218816 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are so many exciting ways to misuse cryptographic primitives < 1345957514 103600 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It's one of those things I should know more about. < 1345957574 748159 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though the right answer is generally "use higher-level primitives", not "know how to use low-level primitives correctly".) < 1345957805 868744 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1345957855 533406 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The situation with Haskell and cryptography libraries seems kind of terrible. :-( < 1345957856 563353 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if that message would come across < 1345957918 71397 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What cryptographic primitives? < 1345957981 28346 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found it entertaining and enlightening to witness a discussion where each side accused the other of advocating the cardinal sin of "rolling your own crypto" < 1345957999 310759 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each side had valid arguments as to why their solution is less "rolling your own" < 1345958008 186338 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I heard Julius Caesar was pretty cryptographically primitive. < 1345958015 757020 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: I think I remember you mentioning that. < 1345958019 189691 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it with mosh? < 1345958021 112378 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1345958039 369832 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mosh already rolls more crypto than is desirable < 1345958045 379377 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't remember the exact arguments. < 1345958069 99327 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nice to use something higher level like DTLS, but there are a few problems with doing so < 1345958081 79866 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the argument in question was about OCB vs. CTR+HMAC, i.e. two block cipher modes < 1345958100 778897 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1345958102 47129 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and plenty of comments from the peanut gallary about "if you have to pick a block cipher mode, you're doing it wrong" < 1345958112 594535 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read somewhere that combining multiple ciphers is sometimes weak; however, I do not think it will be weak if the keys used for each are guaranteed not to be related. < 1345958120 30345 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is fair enough, but again, I don't think there was a suitable higher-level alternative < 1345958162 31457 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://nacl.cr.yp.to/ looks like a nice high-level cryptography library. < 1345958176 474608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know enough to know whether it's actually good. < 1345958187 151307 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you do backward and forward, side effect, stream and block, superencrypted initialization vectors, with a suitable compression in many steps with long keys which do not repeat? < 1345958210 647400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It uses the author's own encryption and authentication primitives, which is generally worrying. < 1345958232 866930 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What's a superencrypted initialization vector? < 1345958273 826190 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition, optimize it to run fast and less memory but use a slow algorithm and insert random delays and RAM scrambler < 1345958304 532837 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't trust random delays, statistics can still win out < 1345958330 95698 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the library shachaf linked is based around the idea of "no data-dependent branches or memory addresses" which seems solid < 1345958341 795460 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: You have an initialization vector of a random length, which is then scrambled with the rest of the code and encrypted again using a different algorithm and with an unrelated key (it because insecure if you use related keys) < 1345958344 888506 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you can pick a fixed time that each operation should take, and wait the remainder < 1345958403 974768 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: But then you need to also deal with power usage < 1345958438 172735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think situations where you have to deal with power usage are pretty rare. < 1345958450 249720 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: RE: NaCl, I *think* DJB is more qualified than most to actually do crypto well. < 1345958465 731262 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Of course. < 1345958488 13705 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: But even so. < 1345958491 336991 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the number of eyeballs looking for dumb implementation bugs may well be as important as a solid understanding of the theory < 1345958493 631400 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, they're only a few years old. < 1345958500 937655 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, crypto and crypto attacks is what his math career largely is. :) < 1345958511 241441 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarsnap guy is also qualified to do crypto well, and yet he had a catastrophic dumb implementation bug ;) < 1345958521 708163 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, yeah. < 1345958546 417174 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I'd rather use a stupid algorithm that a lot of smart people have failed to break than a smart algorithm that only one smart person has failed to break. < 1345958552 87052 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Crypto is one of those fields where minor bugs are nearly as catastrophic as "dur, rot13 is good". < 1345958573 850104 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that that's the situation here.) < 1345958576 680144 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :security in general < 1345958583 895348 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's about worst case rather than average case < 1345958603 542315 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how many linux root exploits involve subsystems nobody ever uses, and/or code which never worked in the first place < 1345958613 737650 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they finally removed econet < 1345958662 510385 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does econet mean? < 1345958674 412016 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Funny, it's just the sort of thing I'd expect you to use. < 1345958679 532158 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :econet is a networking protocol used by Acorn home computers from the 1980's < 1345958681 188470 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1345958684 606007 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :gopher over econet < 1345958700 736951 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux had an implementation of it, which is mostly famous for a number of security holes < 1345958719 31025 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unclear this implementation ever actually worked, and if so how long ago it was last used < 1345958747 706129 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case I suppose it is a good idea to remove it; whoever will use it can make a new implementation which has a better quality. < 1345958759 337128 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :another example is the code for loading 32-bit Video4Linux1 firmware onto a Video4Linux2 device on a 64-bit machine < 1345958783 231402 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out, nobody had ever tried to do this, the code in the kernel had no chance of working but was easily abused to get root < 1345958807 104824 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether the Firefox gopher code has security bugs. < 1345958814 162328 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yeah; what's worse is that many distributions shipped the econet module by default < 1345958829 188236 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even worse, they would automatically load it if you tried to use the protocol from an unprivileged program < 1345958831 770170 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Maybe. It's not there anymore though. < 1345958840 788488 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should just remove most of the stuff in the kernel since a lot of it too complicated < 1345958907 124839 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: also, any remaining users of Econet are almost certainly tunneling it over UDP, and might as well do that in userspace < 1345958911 300999 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't think the Firefox gopher code had security bugs; the Microsoft gopher code has many security issues, though. < 1345958955 37100 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What about the Plan 9 gopher code? < 1345958980 269929 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: No, the problem is using too complicated operating systems (whether it is Windows or Linux or something else, it is still too complicated). < 1345958983 569850 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't know. < 1345958999 662157 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess Glenda isn't a gopher. :-( < 1345959015 400203 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the golang mascot a gopher? < 1345959031 429352 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know but I do not think it is relevant. < 1345959095 931715 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: True. But neither is gopher. < 1345959290 673662 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I make up the new computer system to not have all this complexity, it can be a single tasking system (if you need tasking switch you can store it on the hard drive) and not involving such complicated things as PDF and USB. < 1345959320 814276 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many old computer systems with these properties < 1345959356 485422 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The old one is too slow and it is out of sale. < 1345959393 226917 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can run FreeDOS on your modern PC < 1345959398 943841 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are free development tools for it < 1345959420 647850 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty certain he finds x86 objectionable. < 1345959429 982162 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as well he should) < 1345959460 894185 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1345959473 542414 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are talking about hardware and not just software, then yes it's much harder to remake everything to be simpler < 1345959491 175374 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do happen to think FreeDOS is OK. There are certainly problems with x86 (I don't like the existence of CPUID command is one thing, and modern extensions to the instruction set tend to confuse everything) < 1345959503 88467 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: That is why I have to try. < 1345959517 64387 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i too find x86 objectionable < 1345959531 886996 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i disagree with the more specific claim that x86 assembly is so much harder to write by hand < 1345959539 667047 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:17 for me, annoyance is a full time job < 1345959567 838017 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 assembly is in a lot of ways designed to be nice to write by hand. < 1345959582 950038 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the later addons less so. < 1345959590 868068 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But certainly, at its core it's meant that way. < 1345959602 552030 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :x87 code is not nice to write by hand :( < 1345959640 164616 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what *was* it designed for? < 1345959653 642382 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A register-stack sure isn't good for compilers. < 1345959661 385485 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's just bad < 1345959721 40715 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know why it's designed the way it is < 1345959730 144202 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's bad for all involved. < 1345959738 506587 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daniel Bernstein pointed out that 8-element stack + free swap can sometimes to more than an eight-register instruction set. < 1345959762 117286 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about an eight register instruction set with free swap < 1345959791 875863 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Way back when, that swap wasn't free. :) < 1345959823 130735 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345959829 690605 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in what way is it better? < 1345959838 947228 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: http://cr.yp.to/qhasm/20050210-fxch.txt < 1345959843 244618 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: why don't you like CPUID < 1345959962 897449 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Because a program might not run if you replace the processor. In my idea one thing they could be able to do is, you can store the state of the program to disk and then replace all the components (including the disk) and turn on the program will still continue same as the other one (and if you copy it, both will run identically), is my idea of computer. < 1345959999 708452 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: interesting < 1345960002 220251 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including if all the parts are different manufacturer from what it was before. < 1345960021 887970 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but that's also true if different CPUs have different features, regardless of whether you have an explicit way to identify them < 1345960084 267181 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a real problem though < 1345960093 213466 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xen can virtualize CPUID < 1345960102 693106 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that you can indicate a baseline set of features that all your VM hosts support < 1345960106 632667 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is why it would be made to not have different features, or, if they do have different features have a pin which you can connect to ground to indicate to use compatibility mode or not, so that you can activate the new features or you can turn them off by hardware. < 1345960152 717663 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is a problem for code that uses CPUID as a memory barrier) < 1345960176 101608 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes those may be some of the problems. < 1345960975 62232 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-141-76.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1345960987 95860 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-138-131.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345961266 330828 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-138-131.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345961284 402261 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-138-131.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345961533 910129 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta sleep, ttyl all < 1345961691 632415 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345961934 195888 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate Clojure protocols. < 1345962785 304262 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1345963148 234272 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-165.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345963182 175051 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-138-131.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1345963573 329285 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-148-212.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345963588 21644 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-231-165.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1345964599 671786 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :,(apply (partial some identity) '(true true false)) < 1345964605 789410 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :&(apply (partial some identity) '(true true false)) < 1345964610 327871 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1345964636 349558 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1345966363 160112 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345966368 380696 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345967445 73110 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-153-174.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345967461 360889 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-148-212.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1345969564 342097 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1345969605 759687 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1345970095 40458 :DH____!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345970100 423683 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345970222 44797 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1345970448 144471 :sirdancealot7!~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1345970709 438044 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345970944 535225 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-1-16.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1345971386 349876 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-143-220.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345971400 129948 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-153-174.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1345972214 492245 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345972229 526089 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1345972954 707310 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1345974409 290029 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-151-96.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345974429 138423 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-143-220.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1345975521 511211 :cheater__!~cheater@87.174.162.223 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345975704 348479 :cheater_!~cheater@p57AEA01F.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1345976335 130064 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1345977377 81783 :Lumpio-!~matti@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi QUIT :Quit: _o7 < 1345977390 975543 :Lumpio-!~user@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1345977599 428335 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345977739 556233 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-128-77.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345977750 44237 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-128-77.as43234.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345978041 356828 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1345978688 141374 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8A905.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345979437 731191 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345980054 155891 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-142-25.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345980480 784515 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I think I had a dream last night that there was a video on YouTube where some guy was putting some kittens in a glass of water. < 1345980487 514891 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think they minded, actually. < 1345980537 411605 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :kittens love water < 1345980964 17 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember checking the comments though. < 1345981051 529408 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :????? < 1345981056 513664 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't check the comments???? < 1345981067 489746 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point then < 1345981257 52610 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1345981416 142200 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm finally beginning to appreciate the idea of the right tool for the job, rather than one language to rule them all. < 1345981431 179904 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, I think newLisp's the right language for a codenomic, but not for much else. < 1345981462 433179 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1345981512 34472 :mig22_!~miguelort@bb116-15-65-102.singnet.com.sg JOIN :#esoteric < 1345981632 541714 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-1-16.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1345981633 13618 :mig22_!~miguelort@bb116-15-65-102.singnet.com.sg NICK :mig22 < 1345982226 169275 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1345982683 405064 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1345982708 401 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1345984594 564296 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@p5B133889.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345985176 621028 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345985205 743954 :kinoSi!~kinosi@27-96-32-84.ipq.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1345986094 686297 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-253.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345986114 202775 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-151-96.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1345986876 371345 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :// very readable code from boost < 1345986876 562992 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef std::string::const_iterator interator_type; < 1345986876 709088 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :typedef client::employee_parser employee_parser < 1345986876 709282 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :employee_parser g; // notice this is the first and last use of employee_parser < 1345986887 611512 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~chatzilla@p5B133889.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347] < 1345987140 853026 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do they always give non-virtual destructors to their classes? < 1345987248 345840 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do the classes have any virtual functions? If not, maybe just to save the vtable costs. < 1345987268 503134 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get an error because of that < 1345987281 239459 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a class that derives from that class < 1345987290 720736 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally that would only be a warning < 1345987294 130190 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some reason < 1345987328 984766 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe "they" don't want you to derive. < 1345987340 716442 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their example does derive < 1345987422 370473 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :well their example doesn't work < 1345987422 558236 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_51_0/libs/spirit/example/qi/employee.cpp < 1345987422 558456 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't compile for me. < 1345987499 474281 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best %= operator override ever. < 1345987516 220158 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345987529 880570 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1345987743 777924 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345987759 543970 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1345987863 699636 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1345987952 326553 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345988047 683499 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be QUIT :Client Quit < 1345988057 926582 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1345988472 489771 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1345988521 39504 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1345988757 669353 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1345988763 126571 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1345989507 490454 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1345989945 437930 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1345990794 784389 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. back to spirit classic < 1345991188 705551 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-249-178.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345991202 522407 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-157-253.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1345992893 513156 :mig22!~miguelort@bb116-15-65-102.singnet.com.sg QUIT :Quit: mig22 < 1345994356 838345 :cheater__!~cheater@87.174.162.223 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1345994429 794619 :ineiros!~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1345994458 482006 :ineiros!~itniemin@li271-145.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1345994631 39456 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i used boost::spirit once < 1345994633 23567 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :never again... < 1345994779 979317 :cheater__!~cheater@p57AEA2DF.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345994822 918782 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-253-62.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345994827 603559 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-249-178.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1345995433 146579 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://goo.gl/maps/M9T0H < 1345995523 553891 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1345995542 803845 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elephant Butte, New Mexico < 1345995548 980291 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is next to Truth or Consequences, New Mexico < 1345995567 819594 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is named after a radio show < 1345996147 387228 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345996525 575342 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love it when one of mine comes up in CoaP < 1345996534 73826 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm like, "This sounds familiar" < 1345996540 218053 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Followed by, "This is awful" < 1345996548 409407 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, "Oh, yay, it's one of mine." < 1345996870 10837 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :CoaP? < 1345996873 214987 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1345996900 989976 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1345996909 605704 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Comments on a Postcard. < 1345997059 918317 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fourth least popular comic of DMM's < 1345997119 174575 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :After Infinity on 30 Credits a Day, Awkward Fumbles, at that one that never got off the ground < 1345997225 58203 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now understand Clojure enough to be able to comment about it in my post about name conflicts < 1345997226 356705 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1345997232 11371 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, no. < 1345997241 935095 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1345997397 972004 :Slereah_!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-219-65.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1345997599 252579 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo you so silly < 1345997656 363823 :Slereah!~jackal@ANantes-259-1-219-65.w83-195.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1345997784 906865 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-227-89.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345997797 555216 :pikhq!~pikhq@168-103-253-62.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1345998084 245654 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-141-70.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1345998144 852730 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-227-89.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1345998411 153041 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many Java+other JVM language developers actually stick to the domain name convention, and how many.. well, don't? < 1345998464 716707 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how you could measure that, except by some sort of a silly poll. < 1345999062 528696 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god I want to like Clojure but I don't want to start learning Java. < 1345999169 165956 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java is easy < 1345999195 521703 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not like Clojure is based on Java, it just has a Java FFI < 1345999239 192114 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I have to start learning about classpaths and probably similar things < 1345999270 103381 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true < 1345999279 588045 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found that aspect to be the worst part of using clojure, by far < 1345999362 550762 :Lumpio-!~user@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :JavaScript all the way everywhere < 1345999382 165169 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :420 smoke javascript everyday < 1345999402 304875 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there is ClojureScript < 1345999452 669497 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have anything to do wi6th Clojure < 1345999473 460689 :Lumpio-!~user@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :262 code ecmascript everyday < 1345999502 386449 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if Javascript is Scheme with Java syntax, then presumably ClojureScript is Java with Scheme syntax < 1345999505 407711 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously < 1345999563 426499 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka the least popular language you could possibly make < 1345999699 178533 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc, other than classpath stuff, do you generally like Clojure? < 1345999975 551203 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-126.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1346000680 82782 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1346003519 50476 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1346003527 129482 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually got boost::spirit working < 1346003534 256440 :AnotherTest1!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be NICK :AnotherTest < 1346004086 770543 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: have only used it a little bit, but yes < 1346004105 141459 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe7ef900-153.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1346004700 187594 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnotherTest: congratulations < 1346004707 898470 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-185.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346004725 42513 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-141-70.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1346004739 994834 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: notice spirit classic; I don't think it's possible to get spirit 2 working < 1346004798 171172 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1346004937 561445 :aloril!~aloril@84.249.126.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1346004957 124215 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :mh... semantic actions can take functors < 1346004972 917619 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lambda is a functor in C++... < 1346004980 350219 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, the X1 Carbon has an optional USB 3.0 "dock" box with two DVI outputs < 1346004986 634480 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder how much video you can push through USB 3.0 < 1346005047 193236 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-185.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's nominally 5 Gbit/s. < 1346005058 869915 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++: annoying people by misusing the word "functor" since 1983 < 1346005071 974514 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-185.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not an awesome video card, but should be acceptable at least. < 1346005074 872570 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that USB 2.0 video boxes are usually rather shit < 1346005087 808599 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway yeah, should suffice for business graphics < 1346005092 907931 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1346005103 285030 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: function object :D? < 1346005118 880555 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-185.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's go with "closure". < 1346005122 98766 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :our school has usb2 kvm systems < 1346005147 863264 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkhq_: no, a function object isn't always a closure; a closure is a function object though < 1346005211 653079 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :reason: a function object does not have a capture < 1346005280 580474 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-185.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you're distinguishing between closures that don't close and closures that do? :) < 1346005305 426451 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like this new topic < 1346005308 434833 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Does it mention whether it has a video chipset on the dock, or just something to feed through the image generated by the computer itself? Single-link DVI maximum data rate is just 4 Gbit/s, you could almost even push that raw over USB, let alone encoded somehow. (Though it'd be weird.) < 1346005321 310795 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkhq_: in C++, yes < 1346005324 630477 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure, i'm guessing it's a video chipset in the dock < 1346005330 743436 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkhq_: and maybe always < 1346005333 710821 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-185.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a highly arbitrary and meaningless distinction. < 1346005460 52124 :donmarquis!~~donmarqu@gateway/tor-sasl/donmarquis JOIN :#esoteric < 1346005501 522702 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Google says the dock has a http://www.displaylink.com/usb3/index.php on it, and the spec sheet of that speaks a lot about video compression. < 1346005515 152770 :impomatic!~digital_w@176.18.112.87.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346005588 493582 :donmarquis!~~donmarqu@gateway/tor-sasl/donmarquis QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1346005706 855263 :donmarquis!~~donmarqu@gateway/tor-sasl/donmarquis JOIN :#esoteric < 1346006814 207097 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1346007184 883563 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-126.elisa.ee QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1346007539 585168 :donmarquis!~~donmarqu@gateway/tor-sasl/donmarquis QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1346007657 291786 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.refheap.com/paste/4643 < 1346008038 720192 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-51.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346008067 160732 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-149-185.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1346008104 510691 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: lol < 1346008120 262104 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1346008124 122789 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's funny? < 1346008128 709812 :AnotherTest!~tim@94-224-21-229.access.telenet.be QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1346008145 516690 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the "WARNING! UNTESTED!" is now obsolete < 1346008225 246101 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1346008293 730379 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is my code really that bad that it's "lol" worthy? < 1346008299 293330 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1346008676 107678 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1346009586 826177 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: To be fair, most everybody misuses the word "functor" somehow. < 1346010445 569290 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-155-51.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1346010451 20549 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-226-103.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346010572 429410 :augur_!~augur@208.58.5.87 NICK :augur < 1346010580 372769 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1346010971 210524 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1346011005 97822 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1346011022 361098 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1346011034 743694 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-158-138.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346011040 789968 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-226-103.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1346011429 490773 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:35:06: i gather that there are a lot of fun things to do in LA, most of which i have not done < 1346011432 534328 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:35:18: i never even went to the beach, despite living a few minutes' bike ride away for a summer < 1346011498 521775 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have gone through LA twice in my life, just enough to get a horrible sunburn on the beach the second time. (the first time we'd forgot to get visas so we had to stay at the airport, technically under guard) < 1346011584 565058 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this may have been one of the times i shed 3 layers of skin on my shoulders < 1346011682 412659 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall it was rather fascinating to watch once the pain got relieved < 1346011731 635650 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he should have put a NSFL warning on that < 1346011796 238541 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:23:39: we alone on earth can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators < 1346011807 629245 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1346011839 572565 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :paradoxical yet probably essential to humanity's survival. < 1346011919 607248 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-158-138.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1346011922 549104 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-147-119.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346012196 618747 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no TOPIC #esoteric :May contain: soy strawberries, chocolate people, vanilla computer programming, natto esoteric, tarragon THX deep note, mutton ecliptic longitude, camomile tea, some CPU locusts, rutabaga nonsensical analogies and theories, hummus matrices of solidity, pudding lovecraftian horrors, and no Ice-9. | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/wiki < 1346012274 728969 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given our topics, it's maybe not so unexpected that people come here looking for the other sort of esoterica. < 1346012282 577332 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think? < 1346012321 208950 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also topic of #esoteric-en doesn't help < 1346012345 65046 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think. < 1346012354 881592 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You, think! < 1346012370 380766 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :youth ink < 1346012389 923590 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :3:18 -!- Topic for #esoteric-en: Visit #esoteric if you want to speak about occultism andvwitchcraft < 1346012398 931547 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1346012420 648984 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently that's a festival < 1346012477 185332 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hunk it, yo. < 1346012812 174500 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote kmc gentle.introduction < 1346012812 361511 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc says: i started to read the "tutorial" and it was incomprehensible. makes the Gentle Introduction to Haskell look like Teach Yourself PHP in 24 Hours < 1346012824 7840 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Isn't the Gentle Introduction the "tutorial"? < 1346013012 970894 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/bEdX - N900 dmesg is the most useful ever. (All the hard keys are hooked to the GPIO pins, and the driver reports all state changes.) < 1346015506 536793 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346015720 494315 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: grep -v GPIO < 1346015778 859794 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome Arc_Koen < 1346015787 980449 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1346015789 527936 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arc_Koen: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) < 1346015809 819089 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit quiet here right now < 1346015813 751329 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: Doesn't help all that much since the GPIO stuff has pushed other things out of the message buffer. (Okay, it only matters for historic matters, but still.) < 1346015862 387487 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-147-70.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346015864 533497 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-147-119.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1346016099 589787 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1346016241 368614 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346016291 34777 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn internet is slow :( < 1346016323 233464 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should build a faster one. < 1346016329 101125 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the ATS tutorial < 1346016391 188110 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1346016405 940376 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sympathizes. < 1346016484 448585 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you know the context of the selfish replicators quote < 1346016577 962826 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why did you bring up that quote? < 1346016592 417205 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It came up in #haskell. < 1346016603 398035 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which for some reason I'm still in. < 1346016612 167465 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: did you think up some entertaining misuses of crypto for the next CTF? < 1346016616 280091 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm composing a list in an email to gdb < 1346016624 200126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :edwardk has a new lens combinator for filtering, called "iwhere". < 1346016633 351630 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :filter combinators, reinvented < 1346016663 459924 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why I called it a "combinator". < 1346016672 345918 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because anything sounds better if you call it a combinator? < 1346016675 270703 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a combinator? Why did I even use that word? I don't know what it means. :-( < 1346016708 407104 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just reading < 1346016709 558855 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of taking the bus, take the mobile people combinator. < 1346016718 50390 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably take each DON'T line and turn it into a fun CTF challenge. < 1346016734 493377 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1346016743 583949 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got some ideas from http://chargen.matasano.com/chargen/2009/7/22/if-youre-typing-the-letters-a-e-s-into-your-code-youre-doing.html < 1346016755 988941 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Did you mention something about length-extension attacks? < 1346016771 551943 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the thing Flickr had. < 1346016799 475258 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1346016836 807954 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you finish the web CTF then? < 1346016889 382838 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. :-( I haven't worked on it. < 1346016898 17614 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But today is a good day for it, as soon as I finish $THING. < 1346017043 681290 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1346017104 954725 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: huh, that presentation says to use AES-256, despite the related-key attack < 1346017129 615876 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it says not to use combined authentication/encryption modes < 1346017132 808168 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't say why < 1346017158 508901 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1346017196 429264 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he has a follow-up post that clarifies some of it. < 1346017241 440461 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do related-key attacks generally matter? < 1346017295 779958 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2009-06-11-cryptographic-right-answers.html < 1346017356 797194 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this related key attack doesn't matter specifically < 1346017382 866369 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the one on AES-256 is only theoretical anyway. < 1346017385 481971 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is a notion that cryptosystems with known but impractical attacks are more likely to develop practical attacks eventually < 1346017422 928533 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I did mention the issue of authenticated encryption modes, but to elaborate a bit: CTR mode has the very nice property that the attacker has absolutely no control over what operations you perform. This makes a big difference -- almost all side channel attacks require chosen inputs." < 1346017443 424694 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1346017478 841940 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, i had forgotten that using a separate HMAC requires you to choose between Encrypt-and-MAC, MAC-then-encrypt, and Encrypt-then-MAC < 1346017489 402504 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and experts don't even agree on which of these is better < 1346017500 850965 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a point in favor of authenticated encryption modes < 1346017511 850589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think everyone agrees that encrypt-and-MAC is bad. < 1346017614 817597 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the argument that standalone authentication is much cheaper than decryption+authentication, so a system that can reject unauthenticated ciphertexts early is much more resilient to a DoS. < 1346017622 113681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Assuming you encrypt-then-MAC.) < 1346017631 187583 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1346017642 176095 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I guess he wrote about that. < 1346017646 469023 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which relates to the side channel argument as well < 1346017930 949678 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSH does encrypt-and-MAC? < 1346017951 290449 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you're distributing client code which speaks to a server you operate, there is no need to use SSL; instead, you can distribute the server's public RSA key (or its hash) along with the client code, and "bootstrap" the security process that way. I do this in FreeBSD for the FreeBSD Update and Portsnap services, and I also do this in Tarsnap. It's simple; it works; and it's secure." < 1346017972 480231 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you squint right, this endorses what Mosh does < 1346018039 660551 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense that "send-key-over-SSL" is similar to "send-key-over-SSH"? < 1346018055 173255 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :By SSL I mean https when you're downloading the client code, presumably. < 1346018069 298309 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1346018079 611668 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and rejecting the complexity of SSL for the client app itself, when you don't need it < 1346018091 816912 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mosh doesn't send an asymmetric key at all, does it? < 1346018096 436615 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mosh goes further in having symmetric crypto only < 1346018097 841475 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1346018110 762581 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously this doesn't work if you have multiple mutually-untrusting clients connecting to the same service < 1346018122 564112 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand that makes you more reliant on SSL/SSH, since you have to use it every time rather than just the first time. < 1346018137 521073 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes and no < 1346018160 174993 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone could write a special purpose mosh-server-launching daemon using RSA in the manner Tarnsap guy describes < 1346018171 34729 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would still be a separate component from mosh-server itself < 1346018252 718107 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1346018294 600098 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone already wrote a HTTP-based mosh launcher < 1346018312 329955 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some questionable security properties < 1346018392 484814 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why questionable? < 1346018431 535511 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the docs said nothing about the fact that you should run it over HTTPS, and had an example of running it over HTTP-not-S < 1346018444 972079 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i pointed this out, the author said it was "obvious" that you needed to use HTTPS, so why bother putting this in the docs < 1346018475 679551 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had some other problems too, some of which they did fix < 1346018524 697294 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had some homebrew authentication mechanism, and i think v1 of this was vulnerable to a path traversal < 1346018542 644602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I,I ln -s /usr/bin/mosh-server ~/public_html/cgi-bin/ < 1346018554 733243 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :mosh doesn't contain public-key crypto code but perhaps more importantly, it doesn't contain authentication code < 1346018583 482079 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https doesn't really have a mechanism for client-side authentication. < 1346018625 909750 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has client certificates! < 1346018631 218698 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are used extensively at MIT < 1346018636 109242 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, true. < 1346018640 899686 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard of anybody using them. < 1346018655 556639 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIT is weird :) < 1346018745 594553 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: did you know that ECB mode is the default for Java crypto APIs? < 1346018757 762429 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ECB mode is the default for all crypto APIs that support it. < 1346018770 391442 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't some APIs have no default? < 1346018777 40912 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAcert.org uses SSL client certificates for user login. < 1346018781 773298 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"default" in the sense of "requires the fewest parameters" < 1346018786 377784 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1346018791 946641 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that if you don't choose one, it uses ECB < 1346018793 64956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't know what you're doing, you'll pick the one that looks easiest. < 1346018794 130886 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i could be wrong < 1346018798 398922 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... < 1346018807 174430 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And OpenVPN setups use SSL client certificates quite often, I believe. < 1346018820 484531 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :level 0 of the crypto CTF would involve finding patterns in an ECB-encrypted file, i think < 1346018830 499321 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the Tux image on wikipedia < 1346018872 94386 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a great image. < 1346019058 262971 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there ever a reason to use a mode other than CTR mode when you're not doing combined encryption-authentication? < 1346019195 141430 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1346019225 358718 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CTR requires a nonce, which could be annoying < 1346019249 87223 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What mode doesn't? < 1346019255 787584 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nevertheless, there are specialized attacks like a Hardware Fault Attack that is based on the usage of a simple counter function as input." < 1346019262 116512 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :CBC doesn't < 1346019270 744195 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :CBC has an IV < 1346019278 767990 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difference between an IV and a nonce? < 1346019281 204130 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, right, i guess that's the same thing basically < 1346019283 411888 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1346019367 174106 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346019389 662721 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a crypto-failure T-shirt bought from Bletchley Park; it's describing the occasion when Germans once resent a message (with different typos) reusing -- against the regulations -- the Lorentz stream cipher settings that had been used for the original message. Both were intercepted, with predictable results: http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/lorenz/fish.htm < 1346019413 407885 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the nonce have to be secret in either case? < 1346019425 84720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's not supposed to be secret. < 1346019512 158852 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really there's no point in separating the nonce and the counter, as far as I can tell. < 1346019529 973027 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of having an n-bit nonce and an n-bit counter, just have a 2n-bit counter that starts at a random point. < 1346019552 939266 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :'The one snag with Enigma of course is the fact that if you press A, you can get every other letter but A. I picked up this message and—one was so used to looking at things and making instant decisions—I thought: 'Something's gone. What has this chap done. There is not a single L in this message.' My chap had been told to send out a dummy message and he had just had a fag [cigarette] and pressed the last key on the keyboard, the L < 1346019558 923667 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that was the only letter that didn't come out. We had got the biggest crib we ever had, the encypherment was LLLL, right through the message and that gave us the new wiring for the wheel [rotor]. That's the sort of thing we were trained to do. Instinctively look for something that had gone wrong or someone who had done something silly and torn up the rule book.' < 1346019587 440051 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah < 1346019603 793184 :Lumpio-!~user@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :...they had to translate "fag" and "wheel"...? < 1346019605 209254 :Lumpio-!~user@62-113-182-248.bb.dnainternet.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good grief < 1346019615 940496 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone objected that the incrementing plaintext nonce in mosh packets makes it easy to identify the traffic as mosh traffic < 1346019627 91152 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by someone i mean jacob appelbaum < 1346019639 171590 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:17 challenge/response protocol that is symetrical so that you can pass back the challenge to the remote as if it was your challenge < 1346019642 144108 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:17 and the response you get ack can be used as your response < 1346019644 652567 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:17 diffie-hellman without checking that the challenge you get is in the proper range (ie. so that the attacker can pass in a value that is zero modulu N) < 1346019647 658964 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:18 using number-of-seconds-since-epoch as the seed to a PRNG which is used to generate an important secret. < 1346019650 654080 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:19 using a weak PRNG which can easily be predicted from past values, or alternately one with a very small output space < 1346019669 456673 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1346019679 473757 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i've seen the srand(time(NULL)) used to generate AES keys < 1346019684 654785 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :saw this on stackoverflow anyway < 1346019687 341706 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-147-70.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah! < 1346019714 909213 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a program running on your system which generates random tokens using time(NULL). :-( < 1346019716 4250 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see on Windows, the OpenSSL PRNG requires seeding < 1346019718 853124 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-147-70.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C rand() should only be used for games and such where all the entropy that matters is "eh, looks random I guess". < 1346019734 169217 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what system? < 1346019763 574648 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably report the bug before saying it, or something. < 1346019779 277610 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's acceptable but not ideal for situations where the randomness is not as important as the fact that there are arbitrary numbers < 1346019780 980295 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:20 having a buggy challenge-response implementation where you expect to get back Encr(n+1) as a verifier, but due to bug in impl you actualy require Encr(n) as verifier < 1346019785 3735 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:20 (ie. the "n+1" function has bug that makes it a nop) < 1346019785 993036 :coppro!~scshunt@taurine.csclub.uwaterloo.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hash salts come to mind) < 1346019787 101532 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Low bits of old-old C rand()s shouldn't even be used for that. :p < 1346019787 479829 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:22 having a strong RNG, but always using it after a fork() in a server daemon so that the value sent out by the daemon always uses the same random sequence for each session < 1346019791 607450 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1346019826 548817 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346019827 816520 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1346019831 109657 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi newsham < 1346019854 309243 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i pass on your suggestions to the people who might be running a crypto-related wargame? < 1346019858 700314 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1346019860 152258 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "might be" i mean "i am trying to convince them to" < 1346019860 836484 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1346019870 816937 :Nisstyre_!~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1346019877 943690 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: You should run it yourself! < 1346019886 862220 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much work < 1346019889 431191 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :- having a protocol where replaying a transaction can cause somethign bad to happen, and not having any liveness in the protocol that prevents an old message (encrypted/authenticated) to by simply replayed < 1346019927 364000 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :- having an authenticator that covers a bunch of important fields, but leaves some important field unprotected (and hence tamperable) < 1346019948 232141 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly due to oversight or possibly due to bug where the authenticator length is incorrect < 1346020131 945550 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :- using a really small keyspace so that brute force is trivial < 1346020292 671062 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, i bet you could construct a fun situation where the message length field is the unprotected one < 1346020300 390587 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :allowing you to send a truncation of any legitimate message < 1346020307 797861 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of the opposite of a hash extension attack < 1346020359 418116 :Arc_Koen!~Arc_Koen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net PART :#esoteric < 1346020402 345809 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :truncation attack.. woot < 1346020436 473449 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or like you have an authenticator over the whole msg but not of the pseudodata like what session its from or what IP its from < 1346020441 975437 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that other sessions or other IPs can replay the msg < 1346020483 3543 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ps: if this is going to be a public game, i'd love to hear about it.. love even more if its available for use offline after the game is done < 1346020529 51796 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Security isn't easy < 1346020533 134272 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm suggesting it to the people who are currently running https://stripe-ctf.com < 1346020797 171952 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1346020873 608146 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeFull: indeed < 1346021005 59477 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :security is super easy < 1346021009 263159 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just hard to add functionality < 1346021043 889694 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all really turing and church's fault < 1346021098 569533 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :security was hard before computers too =( < 1346021127 508607 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION spent a lot of time performing privilege escalation attacks on pin tumbler lock systems < 1346021145 544340 :atriq!~Taneb@host-84-13-77-70.opaltelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1346021153 318206 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be really cool to know if one way functions exist < 1346021160 994467 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh.. locks arent designed to be hard to break < 1346021166 510275 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're designed to be cheap and convenient < 1346021200 449740 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feynman did a bit of stuff with locks < 1346021213 373023 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some of these were medeco "high security" locks < 1346021219 892437 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read abou that in "you're full of shit, mr. feynman" < 1346021223 459882 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1346021236 926454 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :typical house locks are a joke, even i can pick those < 1346021258 289091 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ever heard of bump keys? < 1346021275 30403 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup. nifty when they work.. not always suitable < 1346021286 555250 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :youtube has a bazillion videos on em < 1346021308 466580 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at school we had mailbox locks which were so shitty that basically any key could be used as a bump key < 1346021384 21574 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once tried my house key on a school door lock < 1346021387 419162 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it just happened to work < 1346021395 396579 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that one lock though < 1346021396 782122 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1346021426 433976 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I calculated the chances of that happening with a random lock < 1346021429 987314 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what they were < 1346021443 582297 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :But higher than 1 in 70000 < 1346021454 403026 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think anyway < 1346021461 31265 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1346021464 364402 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :was that in feynman's book, too? < 1346021475 394750 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal house key has 5 pins, with maybe 10 possible heights for each < 1346021500 63383 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it was at a school they might have made master keys, which increases the odds of a random match < 1346021502 142946 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible the school lock was missing pins or was excessively worn such that more keys would open it < 1346021505 124688 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or master keys, yeah < 1346021517 188073 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's 10⁵ < 1346021543 307415 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 1/100000 < 1346021545 252649 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :increases dramatically... if the master key doesn't share any heights with the other key, you now have 2^5 = 32 keys that can open that lock < 1346021549 449913 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and many systems have more than one master < 1346021581 163916 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the priv esc that i alluded to is that you can disassemble a few locks in low security areas and thereby compute the master key which works on high security areas too < 1346021585 999544 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure about the 10 heights? < 1346021592 145748 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figure it's less than that < 1346021676 247527 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :schlage locks have 10 heights: http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/schlage-pins-bottom-pins-c-22_33_69.html?osCsid=3c7748ac9175559f241b14333637e96e < 1346021717 570829 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and being off by 1/10th of the height results in no-open? < 1346021753 272560 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends < 1346021769 243594 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a key which is halfway between official heights will open locks of either height, with enough jiggling < 1346021793 657571 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you kind of learn the magic wiggle to make each of your handmade master keys open each lock < 1346021824 944654 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so more like 5^x than 10^x? < 1346021827 885948 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the master and non-master heights in a given pin will never be adjacent, though < 1346021836 666568 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the spacer between them would be too small < 1346021849 824920 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, FreeFull's house key is probably closer to spec < 1346021860 897683 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not exactly halfway between heights < 1346021896 373954 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is lazy locksmith at the school didn't fill all the columns < 1346021899 256039 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it could just be luck < 1346021908 388569 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet luck < 1346021911 240019 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if one thing happens to you every second, you should expect a one-in-a-million coincedence about once a month < 1346021912 909222 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 JOIN :#esoteric < 1346021947 433133 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its never the lotto < 1346021954 601640 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :its always the clock reading "1234" < 1346021973 143884 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-2-142-25.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1346021975 952288 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :or pbs having the mr. rogers neighbhood music video on right as you're flipping < 1346022156 641042 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric : at school we had mailbox locks which were so shitty that basically any key could be used as a bump key < 1346022177 775030 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a locker in my old school that you could unlock by sticking your thumb in the middle and twisting. < 1346022182 793605 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may have been broken. < 1346022228 24553 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can "pick" Master brand padlocks just by hitting a metal bit at the back of the lock < 1346022231 60950 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring the pins < 1346022454 47627 :DHeadshot!~DH____@unaffiliated/dh----/x-6288474 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1346022885 136476 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346022945 473870 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :newsham, sadly news-ham is no longer among us < 1346023281 398889 :impomatic!~digital_w@176.18.112.87.dyn.plus.net PART :#esoteric < 1346023493 325320 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1346023633 194253 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-147-70.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1346023658 720557 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice, Newegg sells a 21" monitor with 2560 x 2048 resolution < 1346023661 563317 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :for only $10,599 < 1346023761 703954 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19370582 Broadcasts in 8K will offer a resolution of 7,680 by 4,320 pixels - roughly the equivalent of a 32 megapixel photo. < 1346023781 266670 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I suspect that we won't see this become available to consumers below $10,000 until 2025," Paul O'Donovan, principal analyst at the tech consultancy Gartner, told the BBC. < 1346024001 893884 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear those fishy Korean 27" 2560xsomething LCDs are nice. < 1346024069 247394 :newsham!~chat@udp216902uds.hawaiiantel.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :also cool: outdoors < 1346024158 60117 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure what this "Large Format Monitor" category is < 1346024178 615339 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seem to be HDTVs, without the tuner? < 1346024198 604762 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :newsham: Outdoors got way better when I got the high-resolution expansion. < 1346024208 580769 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think kmc got that too recently. < 1346024209 504247 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smell price discrimination < 1346024215 373082 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1346024830 769349 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 7680 * 4320 < 1346024831 741904 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric : 33177600 < 1346024856 8490 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is cheaper, HDTVs or those? < 1346024936 616897 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appears to be the HDTVs. < 1346024941 470954 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1346024956 347814 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a "Large Format Monitor Built in TV Tuner" < 1346025039 299908 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :HDTVs are a consumer product, LFMs are a business product, everyone knows a business can't just buy a consumer product even if it does the same exact thing < 1346025076 286692 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a shame it's near impossible to get reasonably accurate measurements of the performance of displays... < 1346025093 169109 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1000000:1 contrast!" < 1346025094 431179 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of performance, and why is it impossible? < 1346025104 850739 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sure, disregard the manufacturer's claims < 1346025115 773674 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bull fucking crap you're not getting 1000000:1 contrast. < 1346025117 597186 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are a fair number of websites giving detailed data on contrast, color reproduction, etc < 1346025132 298565 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/ has some pretty comprehensive tests < 1346025133 784586 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was refering to manufacturer's claims. < 1346025139 50037 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: "our patented blackbody monitors..." < 1346025147 358275 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously, if you look for enthusiasts who measure things sanely, you're good. < 1346025149 544676 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1346025170 693742 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "We accurately display both the brightness of 0k and the sun!" < 1346025180 938387 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually can even a blackbody get that, at room temperature... < 1346025191 447579 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said room temperature? < 1346025195 475804 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1346025200 965289 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :jolly good then < 1346025270 51148 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Safety waiver required for purchase; temperatures of 0K may not be appropriate for corporeal beings. < 1346025286 547971 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor the sun one, incidentally < 1346025305 857718 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's much easier for enthusiasts to objectively review monitors compared to (say) laptop battery life < 1346025320 776389 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are actual objective measurements to be made there. < 1346025321 678772 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :reviewers will come up with battery life numbers differing by 2+ hours on similar-sounding tests < 1346025337 223292 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's more, the objective measurements map very well to *what you actually care about*. < 1346025357 114274 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-252-62.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A monitor with bad contrast will actually look like shit. < 1346025377 532737 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Area Man purchases Large Format Monitor with Built-in TV Tuner" < 1346025429 732051 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1346025471 226868 :kmc!~keegan@c-76-119-235-30.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1346025580 734238 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly that is probably too obscure for the onion?