00:01:30 i can be awake at 15:00 EDT just fine :) 00:01:36 actually i have been waking up well before noon localtime as well 00:01:38 i blame jet lag 00:01:55 I actually like waking up early. 00:02:02 Or, rather, I like waking up early and not being tired. 00:02:08 I just really dislike going to sleep. 00:03:24 yeah 00:03:30 sleep always seems more boring than the alternative 00:03:38 well not always 00:03:44 but usually 00:06:37 I Wanna Flip The Sky 00:12:15 Is this specification OK? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/ines.map_and_unif.map I think one thing I forgot is the precedence of the "romsize", "rom", and "crc" operators. What would you suggest? 00:37:21 * kmc still has not thought of a great algorithm for the word rectangle puzzle 00:40:24 What is a word rectangle puzzle? 00:41:48 `? Finland 00:41:51 Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus. 00:42:33 zzo38: find a rectangle of letters such that every row and every column is an English word 00:42:43 find such a rectangle as big as you can 00:56:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:10:05 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:28:41 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:54:38 -!- soundnfury has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:03:24 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:33:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:54:17 -!- soundnfury has joined. 03:22:43 -!- soundnfury has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:38:15 -!- soundnfury has joined. 04:14:41 -!- MoALTz has joined. 04:41:42 is;to 04:45:00 the;hog;egg 04:46:24 hi 04:47:23 hi monqy 04:50:46 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:06:27 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:06:59 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:09:30 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:16:20 -!- heroux has joined. 05:19:03 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:51:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:05:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:17:18 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 06:37:02 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 06:43:59 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:51:20 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:06:46 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:26:30 -!- knott_rays has joined. 07:26:43 -!- knott_rays has left. 07:46:57 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 07:51:27 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:51:32 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 07:51:42 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:56:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:57:09 -!- nooga has joined. 08:02:52 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:28:10 -!- nortti has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:28:43 -!- nortti has joined. 08:49:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:13:49 -!- augur_ has joined. 09:15:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:44:14 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:19:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 10:39:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 10:39:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:39:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Client Quit). 10:43:01 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:45:57 -!- nooga has joined. 11:05:22 -!- PatrickRobotham has joined. 11:30:38 -!- MoALTz has joined. 12:03:11 -!- derdon has joined. 12:14:11 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:19:10 -!- atriq has joined. 12:24:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:37:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 12:37:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:45:45 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 12:47:14 I don't really like the new Muse song. 12:47:21 It's insufficiently OTT 12:51:19 With this nick, the first two characters don't uniquely identify me on #haskell... 12:51:22 :'( 12:55:24 OTT? 12:55:31 Over the top 12:55:46 Is that a britishism? 12:56:57 Excessive, ridiculous 12:57:10 -!- boily has joined. 12:57:25 I've ended up with a couple of words that I think are Urdu in my vocabulary, but I've no idea what they literally mean or how to spell them 12:57:46 :( 13:06:00 urdu? 13:06:25 Language spoken in Pakistan, I believ 13:06:25 e 13:09:00 "over the top" is used in america too 13:09:03 but i haven't heard the acronym 13:18:31 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:19:08 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:21:59 I got asked about it last time I used it in this channel 13:22:08 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:23:35 kmc: Where do you sleep etc. when you go do travel-ish things? 13:26:17 that depends 13:26:57 when i was biking to vermont i camped in campgrounds 13:27:16 when i was in europe most recently i stayed with friends and in hostels 13:27:24 it depends on the situation 13:27:38 i haven't done the "camping in the middle of nowhere with nobody's permission" thing but that's an option too 13:27:58 lexande slept on a park bench when he was hitchhiking to st john's canada 13:31:43 -!- derdon has joined. 13:40:31 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:53:22 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 14:03:19 Okay, I'm starting to warm to this song 14:07:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 14:11:11 butts 14:11:27 i agree that Muse should be over the top 14:12:26 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:13:20 'The album’s second single, “Knights of Cydonia,” sounds like the theme song to a wild-west Highlander sequel set in Freddie Mercury’s butt.' 14:14:05 Yes, yes it does 14:14:30 i have a theory about Black Holes and Revelations 14:14:38 which is that they were hoping some crazy person would listen to it on loop for 40 hours 14:14:42 and then shoot the president 14:14:56 I'd do it, but I don't have a gun 14:15:00 it's that sort od album 14:15:03 sort of* 14:15:11 that's because you live in the UK 14:15:12 Yup 14:15:27 Hey, my dad and at least one of my friends own guns 14:15:41 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:15:55 here in the USA you get a free gun with your mcdonald's happy meal 14:16:01 (except in san francisco, where they have banned happy meals) 14:20:02 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:31:21 Reöpen yes/no? The only word I can think of with a diaeresis “eo” is pigeon. 14:32:49 Aha, and “righteous”, although there the whole “eou” is a single vowel sound. 14:34:11 Truncheon… 14:35:45 Georgia! 14:35:53 And, for that matter, George! 14:36:17 But is that some olde convention by which “ge” is pronounced as 'j'? 14:37:39 Repen yes/no? The only word I can think of with a diaeresis eo is pigeon. 14:37:53 Erm, I meant withOUT a diaeresis >_> 14:37:53 Pigeon.... does not have diaeresis eo. 14:38:21 If I ever had a pet pigeon, I would name it Pigeön. 14:38:46 Oh damn it, maybe pigeon is just following the same olde convention as George >_> 14:38:57 pigeorgeon? 14:40:10 Gregor: "people" 14:40:18 Perfect! 14:40:54 Conclusion: reöpen yes. 14:41:27 i want a pet pigeon 14:42:33 Hrrrrrrrrrng! I missed a real opportunity with my cat! 14:42:37 She should be Tiämat. 14:44:43 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:51:21 -!- ogrom has joined. 15:02:25 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 15:14:59 kmc: i didn't think OTT was a briticism, just a sort of jargonfile-esque-abbreviate-everything-ism 15:15:14 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:19:11 i don't think it's a briticism either 15:30:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 15:32:04 whats OTT 15:32:22 shachaf: i feel like the couchsurfing.org option for where to sleep should also be mentioned for completeness 15:33:26 i have used that once or twice but it is usually poorly suited to my needs 15:33:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:35:58 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:37:34 -!- nooga has joined. 15:48:24 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:56:54 shachaf: any particular reason for asking? 15:58:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:07:08 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:09:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:13:57 -!- MoALTz has joined. 16:14:43 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:16:39 -!- nooga has joined. 16:35:52 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 16:39:04 -!- kinoSi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:39:31 -!- kinoSi has joined. 16:40:50 -!- atriq has joined. 16:52:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:52:46 -!- augur has joined. 16:58:22 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:59:34 -!- asiekierka has joined. 17:22:30 -!- sirdancealot8 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:22:49 Bulls on Parade is a really boring song on Guitar Hero... 17:31:24 But on the plus side, I get it at 100% on medium 17:38:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:39:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 17:39:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:39:47 -!- AnotherTest has left. 17:39:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:42:21 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 17:44:36 -!- TeruFSX2 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:46:48 heh 17:49:17 has anyone used boost::spirit here before? 17:49:20 I'm liking it 17:50:31 i have used it 17:50:56 it's fairly terrifying 17:51:03 enjoy your 10 page long compiler error messages 17:51:34 also enjoy your boost brand "I Can't Believe It's Not Functional Programming" fake lambdas which you will have to use *everywhere* 17:51:42 kmc: 10 page long due to template abuse? 17:51:55 i wonder if it is more usable with actual C++11 lambdas 17:52:03 FreeFull: i mean, whether it's abuse is subjective 17:52:11 [] () { return 0; } 17:52:12 but yes, spirit is heavily template meta-programmed and that's the cause of crazy errors 17:52:16 yes that is a lambda 17:52:24 kmc: you can boost::bind too for semantic actions 17:52:29 yeah 17:53:10 I find it nice 17:53:10 \x y z -> x * y * z 17:53:23 it's pretty gross how libraries like spirit attempt to do Haskell-style operator-based EDSLs but within the confines of the existing operators and precedences 17:53:30 FreeFull: that's one too 17:53:35 here is a number: 7 17:53:38 here's another one: 19 17:54:01 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:54:15 can we play numberwang 17:54:33 -!- epicmonkey has joined. 17:54:59 λ that's one too 17:55:01 ~dice 6 1 17:55:01 2 17:55:14 that was a number. 17:55:52 kmc: what I do find shocking is that the output size of my program is 1.48 MB) 17:55:52 > 0.0/0.0 17:55:53 NaN 17:55:55 That wasn't a number. 17:55:58 and it's not even 100 lines 17:55:59 brb 17:56:02 -!- PatrickRobotham has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:56:07 drop the r 17:58:03 cuttlefish: that's numberwang! 17:58:24 AnotherTest: what if you strip it? 17:59:39 (*) . (*) x y z 18:01:08 kmc: what's numberwang? 18:01:47 !numberwang 12 18:01:50 That's numberwang! 18:02:33 * boily is confused, but realizes that it's a perfectly normal state of mind when perusing this channel... 18:02:59 boily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjOZtWZ56lc 18:03:02 this should clear it up 18:05:29 FreeFull: why are you sending us these bits of code 18:05:58 I don't think (*) . (*) is valid anyway 18:06:11 sure it is 18:06:13 :t (*) . (*) 18:06:15 forall a. (Num a) => a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a 18:06:22 :t (*) . (*) $ 1 id 8 18:06:23 forall a. (Num a) => (a -> a) -> a -> a 18:06:28 dambit lambdabot 18:06:34 :t ((*) . (*)) 1 id 8 18:06:35 the actual type is (Num (a -> a), Num a) => a -> (a -> a) -> a -> a 18:06:35 forall a. (Num a) => a 18:06:37 > ((*) . (*)) 1 id 8 18:06:40 64 18:06:45 > ((*) . (*)) 1 (+ 1) 8 18:06:48 72 18:06:51 > ((*) . (*)) 2 (+ 1) 8 18:06:54 144 18:07:00 but lambdabot has a nonstandard instance (Num a) => instance Num (b -> a) 18:07:07 fucking lambdabot 18:07:11 kmc: two... hundred 18:07:33 hey let's start a collaborative learning system for Haskell beginners and have a bot which gives WRONG ANSWERS FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF THE EXPERTS 18:07:40 Oh, you have to put it in extra () 18:11:16 «f . g x y» means something different from «(f . g) x y» 18:11:23 either one could be valid in the right context 18:11:34 the former is equivalent to «f . (g x y)» 18:12:09 function application syntax binds tighter than any infix operator 18:13:52 Both are different from (f . g) (x y) 18:14:02 yep 18:14:17 I'm wondering how you'd make the equivalent of (\x y -> (*) ((*) x y)) 18:14:44 @unpl \x y -> (*) ((*) x y) 18:14:45 \ x y -> (*) (x * y) 18:14:45 ERROR:Word not found 18:14:49 @pl \x y -> (*) ((*) x y) 18:14:49 ((*) .) . (*) 18:16:06 ok, it just looks like bunnies to me 18:16:13 yes! 18:16:20 > (((*) .) . (*)) 2 3 4 18:16:22 24 18:16:23 Of course this is just messing around with syntax just because 18:18:13 > ((*) .) . (*) $ 1 2 3 18:18:14 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a -> a) 18:18:14 arising from a use... 18:18:50 Yeah, that won't work 18:19:01 (((*) .) . (*)) looks mighty weird 18:19:04 yep 18:19:09 don't use that in actual code ;P 18:19:38 where "that" = "Haskell", clearly ;P 18:20:07 kmc: Not planning to =P 18:20:15 lol nice zinger soundnfury 18:25:33 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:31:09 kmc: I aim to please :) 18:31:19 so how is everyone? 18:32:08 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 18:34:06 it's funny how you have to inject your opinion that haskell sucks into any discussion relating to haskell 18:34:18 it's the same thing most people do with PHP and C++ 18:34:55 haha php sux 18:34:59 what were you saying? 18:35:07 copumpkin is posting in this high quality thread 18:35:24 :) 18:36:04 kmc: what can I say? I'm an asshole about programming-language holywars 18:36:47 you and 99% of the rest of the programming world 18:36:53 everyone thinks they know it best 18:37:00 also, see also: EMACS vs vi. 18:37:01 but they're all wrong, cause I know it best 18:37:04 (The answer is: ed) 18:37:11 emacs vs vi is an absurd cliche of a holy war 18:37:17 nobody actually cares that much 18:37:19 nobody i've met anyway 18:37:23 biab dinnerscooked 18:37:24 yeah 18:37:30 it turns out that if you're a professional programmer you meet people who are real people and not stereotypes 18:37:50 dinnersocked 18:37:54 I use ed and vi and duslike emacs but you can't get me to fight for my editor 18:38:01 -!- derdon has joined. 18:38:15 soundnfury: by "an asshole about programming-language holywars" you mean that you like to start them for fun? 18:38:24 are realness and stereotypedness mutually exclusive? 18:38:43 soundnfury: you really use ed? 18:38:51 -!- graue has joined. 18:39:05 LOL WELL I EDIT FILES BY RUBBING MY DICK AGAINST THE HARD DRIVE 18:39:07 ARGUMENT: WON 18:39:34 http://xkcd.com/378/ 18:39:46 yes that's what i was making fun of Lumpio- 18:39:52 -_- 18:40:09 What does "represent the foreign information media" mean? 18:40:30 see people, this is why i can't just stop reading xkcd even though it sucks 18:40:36 kmc: It wouldn't have been obvious enough without the link. 18:40:41 because people will always and forever use it as the reference point for any "nerdy" topic 18:41:01 ok but now i'm just trolling 18:41:53 kmc: why does xkcd suck? 18:42:03 beats me 18:42:05 maybe thats what xkcd really is... a reference for certain points that noone else makes 18:42:15 no it's a reference for points that *everyone* makes 18:42:51 if everyone keeps making a point then a lot of people must be aggressively ignoring it 18:42:52 in the earliest iteration, xkcd playfully poked fun at the standard nerd conversational tropes 18:43:10 but it quickly devolved into transcribing these conversations for a wider audience 18:43:29 nortti: well, not for routine editing, no (gedit and nano actually) 18:43:54 but when I discovered yesterday that lappy didn't have ed installed, I immediately apt-got it 18:44:03 so what do you use ed for soundnfury 18:44:15 other than bragging about how big your e-peen is 18:44:25 Fun. 18:44:34 I have never used ed 18:44:47 this is #esoteric after all 18:44:50 you could argue it's an esoeditor 18:45:00 soundnfury: I usually just compile this one http://pjotr.dy.fi/files/ed.c 18:45:01 also: bother, I burnt the chips 18:45:10 kmc: teco is esoeditor 18:45:19 nortti: let me guess. It prints "?" on every input? 18:45:19 soundnfury: or the unix v7 one 18:45:23 (without having looked at it) 18:45:30 soundnfury: no. it really works 18:45:42 I kind of feel bad calling software or languages esoteric even though they weren't purposefully made to be so 18:45:43 kmc: you could, but the original Unix source code was all written with ed iirc 18:46:09 soundnfury: the ? printing variant: main(a){for(;;){read(0,&a,1);if(a=='\n')write(1,"?\n",2);}} 18:46:25 yeah, that 18:47:35 soundnfury: but the link I posted is some random ed I have ported to diffent operating systems. my friend is now hosting it on his haiku web server 18:47:51 wait, haiku? 18:47:54 as in, beos? 18:48:05 yes 18:48:23 he wanted some more obscure os 18:48:29 for some reason 18:48:32 i think the programming problem is that on the one hand everyone runs more smoothly with standards, but on the other hand standards are all biased in some way 18:48:43 yeah well, he should have used risc os 18:48:57 ^everything runs 18:49:02 soundnfury: he doesn't have ARM computers 18:49:07 gotta love those old acorn arcs 18:49:20 I'd love to get acorn riscpc 18:49:44 newer ones are in my comfortable processing power limits 18:50:16 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 18:53:14 "are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities" these forms are always so lovely. 18:54:03 lol. i don't understand why they even bother with questions like that. 18:54:53 for whoever is reading this like in a log, and didn't wisely ignore my post.. please ignore it now.. 18:55:47 "excuse me, the local police station here is having a survey. could you just tell me whether you are a pedophile rapist murderer? just check yes or no here..." 18:57:13 It's like that US immigration form that asks if you were a Nazi. 18:57:16 i figure it's so that afterwards when you do engage in criminal/immoral activities noone can say they didn't ask 18:57:46 so they can call you a liar 18:57:59 "you didn't do a background check on this idiot?" "why should we? he said he wasn't a criminal!" 18:58:20 itidus21, do you have a particularly strong aussie accent? 18:58:38 "haha, now we have him for being a Nazi AND lying on an immigration form!" 18:58:38 atriq, no. 18:58:45 no.... my accent has a certain unplacability about it 18:58:48 Hmm 18:59:04 Thinking of cosplaying Steve from IWC, need to get the accent 18:59:09 hummm 18:59:15 ok i have the video for you :D 19:00:27 if i can remember its name 19:05:03 Phantom_Hoover: It was that form. Well, the ESTA thing. 19:05:31 And it did ask if I've been involved in Nazi stuff between 1933 to 1945. 19:05:40 "Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in 19:05:40 terrorist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were you involved, 19:05:44 in any way, in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies? 19:08:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:12:40 “In 1945 I was busy waiting for my parents to be born.” 19:13:17 yay i found it 19:13:50 this is technically just an actor but... 19:13:52 http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0811/trent-from-punchy-demotivational-poster-1226565882.jpg 19:14:19 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RjC-vh06_c 19:14:35 its a fake australian accent, but it still kinda counts 19:14:57 I have an uncle with an australian accent 19:15:06 Strictly speaking I have 3 19:15:23 this is the side of australia they hide 19:17:56 They... 19:18:03 They all live in Victoria 19:20:43 i found out the guy is actually an actor, but its convincing cos australians can be like that 19:34:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:37:38 oerjan, :) 19:38:54 Reöpen yes/no? The only word I can think of with a diaeresis “eo” is pigeon. <-- um pigeon is two syllables, google agrees 19:39:11 atriq: evening 19:39:28 oerjan: Ya make ONE tpyo, and you pay for it forever. 19:39:34 oerjan: I meant withOUT. 19:39:36 röpen? 19:40:33 apparently yeomen is two syllables iiuc 19:40:37 atriq, do a New Zealand accent, see if anyone notices. 19:40:59 oerjan, it's 'yo, men'. 19:41:01 Aha, “yeoman” is another great example! 19:42:25 geography 19:42:37 No wait 19:43:41 is it words with or without a diaeresis "eo" we're looking for? 19:44:30 without 19:44:32 I was wrong 19:45:47 is meow one or two syllables 19:46:38 apparently either 19:46:46 Two, I'd say 19:46:49 Meee-ooooow 19:47:06 The second of which is a dipthong 19:47:10 Gregor: feoff. 19:48:33 Also I guess jeopardy maybe? I'm no Englosser. (Isn't that what an English-speaking person is called?) 19:48:57 Yes, yes, there are plenty of examples both with and without X-D 19:48:58 an englosser should be a person who makes things glossy 19:48:59 (I think it's an anglophone, and also that you're joking) 19:49:10 But more with diaeresis, I think. 19:52:22 diarheasis 19:52:42 *rr 19:54:13 The diarrheasis is a diacritic that has the shape of a messy splatter. 19:54:17 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:55:20 U+3163F COMBINING DIARRHEASIS BELOW 19:55:23 18:39:05: LOL WELL I EDIT FILES BY RUBBING MY DICK AGAINST THE HARD DRIVE 19:55:26 A character to avoid, perhaps. 19:55:26 18:39:07: ARGUMENT: WON 19:55:30 HARD DRIVE: DESTROYED 19:57:26 because people will always and forever use it as the reference point for any "nerdy" topic <-- rubbish, there's also smbc 19:59:40 -!- asiekierka has quit (Quit: Connection reset by PO). 20:04:23 atriq: also why aren't you just looking up the real steve irwin on youtube 20:04:35 Because that's a completely different person 20:04:45 hm true, true 20:04:48 And the earliest I'm doing this is April 20:05:07 i believe he _does_ speak strine though 20:05:19 So does DMM 20:05:37 he does? 20:05:50 "strine" means more than just australian, iiuc 20:05:50 On account of, you know, being Australian 20:06:13 it means extremely heavy accent 20:06:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:06:32 basically an accent in which you pronounce australian like "strine" 20:06:48 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 20:07:12 mind you i don't actually know. i should get around to listening to those iwc podcasts some day. 20:09:35 also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strine contains "The naturalist and TV presenter Steve Irwin was once referred to as the person who "talked Strine like no other contemporary personality".[4]" 20:12:11 oerjan: Maybe DMM does not quite count as a "personality". 20:12:24 shocking 20:14:18 Seeing as I'm gonna be cosplaying as an Australian from an Australian webcomic in a western style at an anime convention 20:15:29 oerjan: Your SMBC mention made me go look the last 50-odd ones I hadn't read, and one of them made me chuckle. That's unforgivable. 20:16:25 (Namely, panel #5 (with 1-based indexing) of http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2687 did.) 20:16:59 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:17:32 how can you laugh at such tragedy. 20:18:02 about time for me to catch up on it as well 20:18:29 Oh dear god 20:18:35 After I've been talking about Muse 20:18:41 DMM posted on his blog 20:18:48 That he now likes Muse 20:18:56 actually i'll postpone that again 20:19:26 I reserve SMBC as my TVTropes escape mechanism 20:21:22 fizzie: you could have just used an ordinal instead of a cardinal 20:21:35 given that you were describing something ordinally rather than cardinally 20:22:25 also using 0-based indexing outside programming is an automatic turing test failure, anyway. 20:22:46 fungot: What kind of indexing do you use? 20:22:47 fizzie: video games. my bro say can rec me not lol. can try eh huh?..i a bit late. decimal can? leaving hse nw 20:22:47 ok maybe some math too 20:23:42 oerjan: what about building floors in britain 20:23:46 or much of the rest of the world 20:23:56 they even use -1 for first basement, -2 for second basement, etc 20:24:05 madness! 20:24:28 obviously the brits are robots, they invented industry after all 20:24:32 true 20:24:50 thank you, I take this as a compliment 20:24:53 At the university in Belgium, the room numbers were "aa.bb", with the two-digit 'aa' denoting floor; they had 00 for ground floor, 01 for the one above it, etc.; and 99 for first basement, 98 for second. 20:25:10 I don't think I heard anyone speaking of "floor 99", though. 20:25:12 heh 20:25:16 soundnfury is british? it's so hard to notice over the haskell bashing 20:26:59 fizzie: modulo 100 arithmetic? 20:27:26 what _is_ the base 10 equivalent of the phrase "two's complement" anyway 20:27:42 10's complement? 20:27:45 fizzie: What was 50? 20:28:04 Or did that not come up because there weren't that many floors? =P 20:28:29 FreeFull: Presumably it'd depend on how many basement levels and floors the building had. 20:28:45 Don't know what they'd have done for buildings with >100 floors in total. 20:29:09 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:29:41 "The method of complements can also be applied in base-10 arithmetic, using ten's complements by analogy with two's complements." 20:30:35 and the counterpart of 1's complement would be 9's complement? 20:32:46 oerjan: well, C was based on BCPL, which was designed at Cambridge 20:33:33 The main Haskell compiler was created at Glasgow 20:34:00 yes 20:34:11 olsner: seems so 20:34:19 but glasgey is one of my least favourite of the scottish stereotypes 20:34:47 no true scottish stereotype 20:34:51 ahaha 20:35:18 The BCD article mentions signed BCD with ten's complement. I was wondering if anyone was doing that. 20:35:40 Hmm. 20:35:54 olsner: i imagine this terminology will get very confusing if you are using two different bases one apart 20:36:07 ('At least kind of.) 20:36:18 fizzie: would DA instructions still work properly? 20:36:23 oerjan: indeed 20:36:28 * soundnfury _thinks_ they should but isn't sure 20:36:44 Anyway, Real Men™ use balanced ternary. 20:36:49 otoh, that would be a fairly weird thing to do in the first place, maybe it won't matter all that much 20:36:54 (and Complex Men™ use Quater-imaginary base) 20:37:03 (badum-tish!) 20:37:07 i'm just a simple pole in a complex plane 20:37:26 Zero, because all the poles are in eastern europe 20:37:35 except that's plainly not the case 20:37:39 planely 20:37:39 kmc: you're not a pole! 20:37:42 i'm not 20:37:47 They're over here stealing our jobs #dailymail 20:37:51 haha 20:37:51 kmc: ok, there are /some/ poles in western europe, but they are removable 20:37:54 nooga: you may swat kmc 20:37:59 "press 2 for polish" 20:37:59 Oh god did I just hashtag in IRC 20:38:03 What have I become 20:38:06 atriq: it's ok 20:38:09 pretend it's a channel 20:38:32 i will not join #dailymail 20:38:42 It's empty 20:38:42 The official Daily Mail freenode channel. 20:38:42 Binary coded hexadecimal is equivalent to binary itself 20:38:42 HEY EVERYONE let's all /join #dailymail and pretend to be crazed xenophobes 20:38:59 Nah 20:39:37 why would you want us to pretend that, are you some kind of communist 20:39:38 binary coded trinary 20:39:56 binary coded binary 20:40:00 or binary coded unary, that might be worse 20:40:36 binary coded baudot coded binary 20:40:43 binary coded negabinary 20:40:54 store bits as FIGURESHIFT {0,1} LETTERSHIFT 20:40:59 15 bits per bit 20:41:41 UCS-4-coded binary only uses 32 bits per bit. 20:42:02 you could store the bits in combining characters 20:42:42 something like, an odd number of combining characters is a one, an even number is a zero perhaps? 20:43:22 and then you print it as a book in vietnamese 20:45:09 hahaha 20:45:58 Using UCS-2.625 you get one bit per 3 codepoints. 20:46:15 2.625? 20:46:29 That's where you store 3 codepoints per 64 bits. 20:46:31 > 21*3 20:46:32 63 20:49:16 oh, you mean you store the bit in the extra bit left over after the 3 codepoints? 20:49:23 Yes. 20:50:55 UCS-4 lets you store 3 codepoints in 96 bits without even having any bits left over 20:51:55 And it's more secure. I mean, it has more bits, it must be. 20:52:05 UCS-4 has lots of bits left over. 20:52:19 > (32-21)*3 20:52:20 33 20:52:27 well, yeah, but they must all be zero 20:52:27 Those aren't left over. 20:52:44 Well, OK. 20:52:57 UCS-2.625 ought to be called UCS-2.666... anyway. 20:53:02 The bit isn't really left over. 20:54:15 UCS-2.510932855... and so on. 20:54:23 When UCS-2.625 feels too wasteful. 20:54:59 You only need 20.08746... bits, after all. 21 is almost a whole bit too much. 20:55:02 > logBase 2 21 20:55:04 4.392317422778761 20:55:16 erm 20:55:17 fizzie: Huh? Unicode is specified to use 21 bits. 20:55:31 shachaf: No, it's specified to contain code points from 0 to 0x10FFFF. 20:55:41 Oh, really? 20:55:51 Hm. 20:55:54 I wonder how they came up with 17 as a logical number of planes 20:55:55 > logBase 2 (0x10FFFF+1) 20:55:56 20.087462841250343 20:55:57 17 planes. 20:56:11 > logBase 256 (0x10FFFF+1) 20:56:12 fizzie: You also don't need to store surrogate-pair codepoints. 20:56:12 2.510932855156293 20:56:18 So that saves a bit more. 20:56:19 there you go 20:56:22 it had to be a prime number? they wanted to make sure no-one tried to make do with 20 bits? 20:56:44 21 isn't prime? 20:56:47 you can always include the surrogate pairs in your UCS-4 or UTF-8 encoding 20:57:10 people already actually do that, so it would hardly even be weird 20:57:17 olsner: But they're invalid. 20:58:07 > logBase 256 (0x10FFFF+1) :: CReal 20:58:09 2.5109328551562924260317582513513005442514 20:58:20 invalid schminvalid 20:59:28 you could do UCS-2.5 with an escape code that enter an astral mode where everything is offset with one plane 20:59:41 *enters 21:01:37 > let m = (1+) . fromIntegral . fromEnum in logBase (m (maxBound :: Word8)) (m (maxBound :: Char)) -- now without magic constants 21:01:40 2.510932855156293 21:03:19 another escape code could take you to astral plains with otherworldly farmers 21:03:35 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!). 21:04:04 -!- cuttlefish has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:04:37 olsner: The UCS (i.e. ISO/IEC 10646, Universal multiple-octet coded character set (UCS)) at one point in its history had 2^31 codepoints, with 128 "groups" of 256 "planes" of 256 "rows" of 256 "cells". 21:05:42 They had at least a draft out with that kind of structure. 21:06:29 Then Unicode bumped themselves up from 16 bits to the 17-plane thing in version 2.0, and ISO 10646 limited themselves to the same amount. 21:11:30 olsner: As for why exactly 17 planes, it at least exactly "fills" the UTF-16 surrogate pair mechanism -- you get the BMP as-is, and the other 16 planes make for exactly 20 bits, and there's 10 bits space in each surrogate half -- though I don't know the history. 21:12:11 olsner: would this astral plane contain three encodings of '_'? 21:13:02 well, there is the plane of planes, where every code point is an encoding of '_' 21:13:15 UTF-16 is the devil. :-( 21:13:53 The plane of planes has a lot of characters like ✈ 21:14:12 no, that's the *other* plane of planes 21:14:14 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:14:29 Or is it the plane of *other* planes? 21:14:32 shachaf: no, the devil is people who assume "UTF-16 is just UCS-2, right?" 21:14:52 olsner: DYESWIDT? 21:14:52 soundnfury: That's a double devil. 21:15:24 Do You ESWant IDentified Things? 21:15:36 No! I can't be dead! 21:15:49 soundnfury: There is only silence and some second-hand clothes. 21:16:02 shachaf: You have: no tea 21:22:34 take common sense 21:23:57 Unicode 2.0 indeed seems to (a) still talk about how "Unicode character codes have a uniform width of 16 bits" and (b) introduce the "surrogate extension mechanism" to access the non-BMP characters. So it does sound like that's why the 17 planes; I think they got UTF-16 out of the then-existing ISO/IEC 10646-1:1993 that (I believe) had 2^31 codepoints. Would be interesting to see a draft of ... 21:24:03 ... that, to see how they justify the encoding that can't go all the way up. 21:24:40 There's an "overview" document from that time describing the Transformation Formats, saying "UTF-16: Unlike UTF-8 and UTF-7, this transformation reduces UCS-4-coded text to a UCS-2-based encoding and the result can only be used by so called 8-bit safe programs and processes, where all octet values are allowed. All UCS-4 codes in the BMP are reduced to the corresponding code in UCS-2. In ... 21:24:47 ... addition, UCS-4 codes in the 10 following planes of group 0 are transformed to two UCS-2 codes. 4096 codes in the BMP are reserved for this. This makes the characters that in the future may be allocated to 1048576 code positions of UCS-4 outside the BMP available in the 16-bit UCS-2 coded character set. The other code positions in UCS-4 are still unusable in the UTF-16 transformation ... 21:24:53 ... format. One motivation for defining UTF-16 has been that it will make it possible for software implementing Unicode to cope with the expansion of UCS outside the BMP for the foreseeable future." 21:25:39 being "8-bit safe" doesn't sound very useful when exposed to either of UCS-2 or UTF-16 21:26:49 It also withdraws the UTF-1 from the draft; I wonder if that thing was ever really used anywhere. 21:33:53 Got a spam asking if I sent some woman to collect money on my behalf 21:34:03 I have to wonder what would happen if I said "yes" 21:44:20 "So that's who the money lady was talking about" 21:44:33 "I'm glad I gave her all my money now" 21:45:12 And on that bombshell, goodnight! 21:45:14 -!- atriq has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:51:48 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:51:52 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:55:58 somewhere in hexham atriq is sleeping on top of a bomb 21:56:21 `? hexham 21:56:32 Hexham is a European town. There are nine people in Hexham, and at least two of them are in this channel. Taneb looks after the ham. 21:56:33 ?where hexham 21:56:33 I know nothing about hexham. 21:56:48 ?list where 21:56:48 Taneb? Who's Taneb? 21:56:48 where provides: where url what where+ 21:57:00 `? ham 21:57:04 ham? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 21:57:08 shachaf: there might be a slight hint in the topic 21:57:18 i wonder what hexham is like 21:57:29 oerjan: atriq is Taneb, but is "is" symmetric? 21:57:31 i have been to wylam, is it a bit like that? 21:57:39 If "is" is symmetric then symmetric is "is". 21:57:43 Which doesn't make sense. 21:57:50 ?where+ Hexham is in Northumblingaroundland 21:57:50 Done. 21:57:54 ?where hexham 21:57:55 is in Northumblingaroundland 21:57:59 oops 21:58:06 ?where+ Hexham Hexham is in Northumblingaroundland 21:58:06 Done. 21:58:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:58:38 shachaf: see: equivalence relations 21:58:53 oerjan: "is" is an equivalence relation? 21:59:10 @whatis gazpacho 21:59:10 I know nothing about gazpacho. 21:59:12 `? gazpacho 21:59:16 gazpacho? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 21:59:17 SOMETIMES 21:59:36 "is" is not an equivalence relation 21:59:58 "is" can mean a lot of things. Like ⊆ 22:00:39 "is" is a partial order 22:02:56 `run echo "You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!" >wisdom/gazpacho 22:02:59 No output. 22:03:13 `run cp wisdom/gazpacho wisdom/gaspacho 22:03:16 No output. 22:03:23 `? gazpacho 22:03:26 You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off! 22:05:16 does "is" define a lattice? 22:05:26 `? lettuce 22:05:29 lettuce? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 22:05:40 lexande: What would be the top and bottom? 22:05:45 "something" and "everything" 22:05:46 ? 22:05:53 `learn Lettuce is a vegetable with two operations, join and meet. 22:05:57 I knew that. 22:06:01 haha 22:06:15 oerjan: dressings, not operations 22:06:22 speaking of lettuce, did you know that no-one knows exactly what kind of lettuce they had on the titanic? 22:06:28 `learn Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet. 22:06:31 I knew that. 22:06:53 * oerjan braces for the punchline 22:06:53 and iirc, iceberg lettuce wasn't invented at that time 22:15:28 #haskell: Worst channel or worstest channel? 22:15:44 Wurstest 22:18:35 Bratwurstest! 22:23:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 22:28:05 what did it do this time 22:28:10 shachaf: ^ 22:28:44 fizzie: UTF-1?? 22:30:05 you could do UCS-2.5 with an escape code 22:30:15 you have reinvented ISO 2022 22:30:17 go directly to jail 22:30:19 do not pass go 22:30:21 do not collect $200 22:30:30 "do not collect CHF 60 for a copy of ISO 2022" 22:38:08 kmc: Oh, just the usual. 22:38:20 Monads and things. 22:38:29 why are you even in there if you don't like it? 22:38:39 I like some of it. 22:39:03 This is like one of those experiments where the randomized rewards get further and further apart from each other, though. :-) 22:39:07 s/.$/(/ 22:39:24 kmc: hmm, if that just makes a new ISO 2022, that's boring... I don't know how ISO 2022 works, but is there some way of making it more horribler than ISO 2022? 22:49:14 i assume so 22:49:34 ISO 102022 22:49:48 also now i want currywurst :( 22:50:15 17 planes filled with 65536 escape codes each 22:50:51 monads and lenses and kinds, oh my 22:51:03 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:51:45 -!- copumpkin has joined. 22:52:56 hurr, this movie has gun kata 22:53:09 -!- augur has joined. 22:53:14 oh man i forgot about gun kata 22:53:24 happy to help :) 22:55:52 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 22:59:12 -!- graue has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:03:53 emacs in popular culture 23:06:22 wat 23:06:27 huh http://geofft.mit.edu/blog/sipb/132 cool 23:10:29 kmc: yuck, tempfiles? 23:10:50 why didn't he use "gcc -x c <"? 23:11:13 kmc: ezyang is moving to CA! 23:11:54 canafornia 23:12:08 soundnfury: you still need somewhere to put the executable and run it 23:12:13 cellular automafornia 23:12:17 shachaf: ok 23:12:23 right, grad school at stanford 23:12:24 i knew that 23:12:46 calistanford 23:12:47 kmc: there must be a way around that. 23:12:55 soundnfury: let me know 23:13:35 there are C interpreters, I guess 23:14:05 or you could use that gccrun, which is a very tiny shell script 23:14:29 It turns out you can reach Knuth via email overnight if you know the right person to contact. 23:14:36 yes, but, tempfiles? Yuck. 23:14:51 yeah, gcc $0 is a bit more fun 23:15:02 soundnfury you're really getting on my nerves 23:15:04 maybe that's the goal 23:15:12 not entirely 23:15:18 shachaf: not for long _now_... 23:15:23 though there is a part of my personality that seems to want to 23:15:57 so i read homestuck for the deep philosophical questions 23:16:04 like 'is the jig every anywhere but up?' 23:17:22 soundnfury: people in general, or me in particular? 23:17:32 * Sgeo is currently vacillating between Common Lisp and Clojure 23:17:41 Sgeo: for what purpose? 23:17:44 kmc: people who like haskell in general 23:17:48 -!- monqy has joined. 23:17:53 for talking about on IRC? 23:17:55 kmc, a language to use for whatever purpose 23:18:10 Sgeo: Write your own Lisp. 23:18:13 soundnfury: did i even say i like haskell? 23:18:15 Maybe finally trying web dev, maybe making IRC bots, maybe implementing an esolang. 23:18:36 or did you infer that from the fact that i'm annoyed by your extremely ham-fisted attempts at bashing haskell 23:19:03 kmc: well, maybe also people who don't like people who don't like haskell 23:19:05 iunno 23:19:45 ok 23:20:07 it's not that you "don't like haskell" it's that the intellectual depth of your criticism is "LOL HASKELL SUX AM I RITE" 23:20:08 /bin/bash -c "ghc" # bashing haskell 23:20:20 kmc, also I like the idea of modifying a program while its running for developement purposes 23:20:30 i've got plenty of gripes with haskell myself 23:20:59 kmc: that's because going any deeper than that into haskell-speak saps my will to live 23:21:29 ok 23:21:29 and haskellers won't talk to you except in their categorical language 23:21:38 * shachaf sighs. 23:21:45 the fact that you think haskell is about category theory indicates that you lack even a basic understanding of the language 23:21:56 it's not that haskell is about category theory 23:22:28 it's that haskell coders are about category theory 23:22:36 only a minority of them 23:22:37 but anyway 23:22:47 there are plenty of pragmatic real-world-language grounds on which to criticize haskell 23:22:51 which have nothing to do with category theory 23:23:05 Being a fan of one concept inspired by category theory does not imply thinking about category theory 23:23:06 and generally try to take far too mathematical an approach to programming 23:23:32 kmc, does having to deal with monad transformers count as one of those reasons? 23:23:39 potentially 23:24:01 I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a maths graduate myself, I *love* maths. But formal methods in programming really turn me off 23:24:17 -!- TeruFSX2 has joined. 23:24:50 Haskell takes heavy inspiration from math, but that doesn't mean it's ... not sure what I'm trying to say 23:25:20 haskell is not particularly about "formal methods" but the stuff that's *actually* called "formal methods" is pretty damn important 23:25:33 if i'm riding in an airplane, i want to know that the software running the plane has been mathematically proven correct 23:25:44 in addition to lots of real-world testing 23:25:49 one is not a substitute for the other 23:26:07 obviously if you're making a website to serve cat photos you don't need this degree of rigor 23:26:14 again 23:26:16 nothing to do with haskell 23:26:23 haskell actually sucks as a language for proving shit about your code 23:26:26 in theory it would be great 23:26:34 but in practice the formal methods community cares about C because it's industrially relevant 23:26:50 you can prove some stuff within the haskell type system, but there's real diminishing returns in terms of the complexity of doing so 23:27:14 kmc: I'm not sure what I'm trying to say either, except that the haskell community and its jargon "smells bad" to me 23:27:43 when something "smells bad" you should consider whether it's actually your own prejudices 23:27:53 there is sadly a lot of anti-intellectualism among programmers 23:28:03 but, i agree that there are many problems with the haskell community as well 23:28:06 and I just wish this channel had more discussion of /other/ esolangs >snerk< 23:28:12 i mean, i quit #haskell because it was constantly making me angry 23:28:17 kmc: what kind of anti-intellectualism do you mean? 23:28:19 after several years of hanging out there all the time 23:28:31 soundnfury: the kind you are displaying 23:28:45 taxonomy: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4001 23:28:47 making fun of the fancy math words and the book learnin' without any substantive complaint 23:29:01 assuming anyone with a PhD cannot code 23:29:16 ah, so thalamic? 23:29:19 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to TomWilliams. 23:29:35 also programmers can be anti-intellectual in that they think all intellectual pursuits *other* than programming are inferior 23:30:02 To that all I can say is "Hell no." 23:30:06 -!- TomWilliams has changed nick to copumpkin. 23:30:06 they assume that if only a programmer bothered to look at one of these other fields, they would instantly revolutionize 23:30:13 and i'm not going to read a long blog post by esr thanks 23:30:40 I don't have a problem with "book learnin'" per se, just misapplication thereof 23:31:08 also every language community has its own jargon 23:31:22 haskell jargon is more unfamiliar because haskell is a unusual language 23:31:58 I don't think that type of fancy math belongs in programming, I think programming is an analytic/synthetic discipline, whereas the fancy-math approach seems to be purely synthetic 23:32:25 if something is both analytic and synthetic, then wouldn't you like some analytic tools and some synthetic tools? 23:32:27 basically, programming in haskell looks like the equivalent of doing your calculus with greek geometry á la Isaac Barrow 23:32:57 kmc: sure but the language has to accommodate both 23:33:21 haskell accommodates most styles... 23:33:35 I don't see much room for analysis in the strongly-typed world of haskell 23:33:37 it definitely accomodates the loosely-checked, side-effect-full style favored elsewhere 23:33:45 I think I've worked out what I don't like about haskell 23:34:03 it's that the type system is too complicated 23:34:12 your attitude is one of someone who has read all the hype about what makes Haskell unusual, but hasn't actually used the language and so doesn't know about the various ways in which it compromises on those unusual qualities 23:34:21 the type system isn't that complicated 23:34:24 it doesn't even have subtyping! 23:34:29 I prefer simple ontologies like "everything is a cons" or "everything is a bag of bytes" 23:35:27 so how much do you actually know about haskell 23:35:31 i mean, how much code have you written 23:35:49 well, as I've mentioned before, I don't know much about haskell 23:36:11 but then I know even less about COBOL and I'm willing to hold opinions about it too 23:36:12 you might want to hold off complaining about how unrelentingly 'synthetic' it is, then 23:36:28 maybe that's unwise 23:36:32 because I'm willing to substitute the judgement of others whom I trust for my own 23:36:34 maybe it causes you to embarrass yourself in public 23:39:53 i think the fanboys are to blame largely 23:40:34 start learning haskell => write a prime number sieve => blog about how pure and mathematical haskell is 23:42:31 there is this impression that Haskell is a pure object of mathematical beauty and that it forces you to program in a totally different way 23:42:32 -!- monqy has left. 23:42:34 it's not, and it doesn't 23:42:55 but that is the experience of beginners and that is the furthest most people get 23:44:18 if most people only get that far, maybe the learning curve is the wrong shape? 23:44:33 yeah, it is 23:44:37 like, brick-wall-shaped instead of curve-shaped ;) 23:44:46 this is one of the biggest problems with the language and the reason why it will never be mainstream 23:44:54 you don't need to convince me about that 23:45:15 -!- impomatic has left. 23:46:10 basically i think haskell is a good tool for solving certain problems, but not good enough to justify learning it on those grounds 23:46:13 `quote than haskell 23:46:17 844) stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close. 23:46:24 `delquote 844 23:46:25 it's only a practical tool if you've already learned it for fun 23:46:26 -!- elliott has joined. 23:46:28 ​*poof* stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close. 23:46:31 i heard there was an argument about haskell 23:46:36 oh, thank you for removing that quote 23:46:40 i kept meaning to but then didn't 23:46:50 and really learned, not just well enough to do prime number sieves and toy lisp implementations 23:46:52 elliott: after the current argument it suddenly didn't feel funny any more 23:46:53 which takes a long time 23:47:34 oerjan: well, the qdb can be used for preserving stupid things people say 23:47:36 aw man, why did you delete it? 23:47:41 but ideally they should be stupid things that take a little bit of thought to come up with 23:47:44 rather than just dumb things 23:48:15 * soundnfury sulks 23:48:51 i haven't seen anyone else with this much of an axe to grind about haskell, besides Jon Harrop 23:48:58 soundnfury: are you Jon Harrop 23:49:01 soundnfury: i realized it was more sour gripe than humor. 23:49:25 oerjan: actually, it wasn't sour gripe. It wasn't humor either. It was *humour*. 23:49:33 kmc: No. Who is Jon Harrop? 23:49:50 has he ever been seen together with soundnfury? 23:49:51 a person with an axe to grind about Haskell 23:50:06 a troll who #haskell cannot stop talking about, proving his effectiveness 23:50:21 oerjan: actually, it wasn't sour gripe. It wasn't humor either. It was *humour*. 23:50:22 but he does make substantive technical arguments and community criticisms besides LOL HASKELL SUX ITS WORSE THAN SHITE 23:50:25 sorry can you be more obnoxious 23:50:34 from time to time 23:50:35 kmc: i wouldn't call harrop's arguments substantive... 23:50:46 they are pretty shallow 23:50:53 elliott: Ok. 23:51:09 when he accused the haskell community of cherry-picking results to show how great haskell is, i was like 23:51:14 "ouch... but i see where you're coming from" 23:51:49 kmc: maybe i would take harrop quarter-seriously if he was not obviously and self-admittedly doing all this for the sole purpose of shilling for his shitty company 23:51:50 elliott: Are you named after the Elliott Automation line of computers? 23:52:01 in fact... are you an AI running on an Elliot 503? 23:52:03 sure 23:52:09 i think i am actually named after the amplifier brand or something 23:52:13 at least half 23:52:36 kmc: you should see some of his deleted stack overflow answers, they are pretty great 23:52:39 at least one of them is 23:53:04 he acused the DPH people of academic fraud or something because he didn't consider them competent on parallel computing 23:53:20 ye outer gods, F#? 23:53:34 *accused 23:53:42 soundnfury: so what is your favourite language 23:56:09 elliott: C 23:56:18 soundnfury: hahaha ok 23:56:21 Lisp would run it close if the dialects didn't all suck 23:56:25 and why is C your favorite language 23:56:31 soundnfury: hahaha ok II: the return of hahaha ok 23:56:31 though obviously they're for different things 23:56:57 * nooga swats kmc 23:57:27 nooga: you took your time! 23:58:00 kmc: because it's easy to mentally model the execution of the code, and because it's local 23:58:01 Is it wrong to like newLisp's source and save functions? 23:58:37 Sgeo: yes. worse than murder. 23:58:37 (in the sense that everything controlling the semantics of a piece of code is usually in or near that piece) 23:58:42 soundnfury: if you think it is easy to mentally model the execution of some C code you have no idea how modern hardware works 23:58:45 it is not easy to mentally model the execution of C code on modern compilers and processors :/ 23:58:53 (obviously preprocessor abuse can break this) 23:58:55 soundnfury: that is also false. function calls exist 23:58:57 pointers exist 23:58:58 &c. 23:59:14 It's god damned hard to mentally model how *assembly* maps to hardware functioning. 23:59:26 kmc: ah, but reordering and shizzle is supposed not to affect things 23:59:27 -!- monqy has joined. 23:59:43 I guess what I mean is "I can emulate the C abstract machine in my head" 23:59:45 C is at least two layers of abstraction up! 23:59:45 you might say it's just like optimisations performed a haskell -- or indeed any other language's -- compiler