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00:50:02 <shachaf> kmc: for (uint32_t i = 0; i <= UINT32_MAX; i++) {
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01:16:45 <FreeFull> shachaf: Also wouldn't <= UINT32_MAX cause it not to terminate
01:17:33 <shachaf> In addition to the other thing I meant when I pasted that snippet in here.
01:17:39 * oerjan thought that was the point
01:18:38 * oerjan wonders if for (uint32_t i = 0; ; i == UINT32_MAX ? break ? i++) { will work properly
01:18:58 <oerjan> *for (uint32_t i = 0; ; i == UINT32_MAX ? break : i++) { will work properly
01:19:15 <shachaf> break isn't an expression, is it?
01:19:33 <oerjan> i dunno, i guess if so it won't...
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01:31:29 <Gregor> oerjan: uint32_t i = 0; do { ... } while (++i != 0)
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01:32:38 <Gregor> Welp, you've stumbled upon the worst imaginable spelling of “OK”…
01:34:45 <oerjan> no i think elliott has clearly indicated he likes "O KAY" even less
01:36:21 <oerjan> i am thinking of this as a sequence of spellings and capitalizations ordered by loudness and sometimes sarcasm
01:37:51 * oerjan shall have to start using OH KEY
01:39:33 <oerjan> and specially for Gregor: o kaÿ
01:40:02 <oerjan> (for some reason my keyboard doesn't support capital ÿ)
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02:48:16 <tswett> Besides, Ÿ is precomposed. I think.
02:48:59 <tswett> Gregor: if I ask you for suggestions about TV shows to watch, will your response consist entirely of the word "pony" repeated a few times?
02:49:15 <tswett> I seem to like serious fantastical character-driven serials.
02:49:27 <Gregor> I like sitcoms and cartoons.
02:49:45 <tswett> So you like non-serious non-fantastical non-character-driven non-serials.
02:49:56 <pikhq_> I grok cartoons just fine, but why sitcoms?
02:50:14 <tswett> Wait, sitcoms are usually character-driven.
02:50:17 <Gregor> Good sitcoms are great, though bad sitcoms are abysmal.
02:50:20 <pikhq_> tswett: By the way, pony pony pony
02:50:24 <pikhq_> Gregor: Okay, fair enough.
02:50:28 <Gregor> Corner Gas, Seinfeld, now I've been watching the Drew Carey show for some reason, …
02:50:42 <pikhq_> Gregor: Sorry, usually when I hear "sitcoms" I think to bad ones, because there's so many.
02:51:21 <pikhq_> And yet I don't for cartoons, even though there's undeniably *more* bad cartoons out there.
02:51:57 <Gregor> And the Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle!
02:52:08 <pikhq_> Rocky and Bullwinkle is awesome.
02:52:10 <Gregor> And… AND… MY LITTLE PONY: FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC!
02:52:19 <pikhq_> Yes, that's pretty good too.
02:52:22 <Gregor> Rocky and Bullwinkle is perhaps the greatest cartoon show ever made.
02:52:24 <tswett> pikhq_: do you have any suggestions?
02:53:30 <pikhq_> tswett: Hmm. Serials. 'Fraid I don't watch enough *serious* stuff. I'd suggest Doctor Who, but it's anything but serious (usually).
02:53:45 <pikhq_> And you've probably gotten the recommendation before. :P
02:53:52 <Gregor> Anyway, the Drew Carey Show is amusing because it's like they avoided jumping the shark by trying to jump the shark in EVERY EPISODE.
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02:54:09 <tswett> Doctor Who is pretty episodic, isn't it?
02:54:56 <pikhq_> tswett: Classic Doctor Who was divided into "serials", each consisting of a few episodes, each serial being a whole story.
02:55:00 <pikhq_> It kinda fits, at least.
02:56:48 <Sgeo> I like non-serious fantasical non-character-driven serials
02:56:48 <pikhq_> New Doctor Who is rather highly episodic.
02:57:51 <Sgeo> I still have yet to finish season 7 of DS9
02:57:54 <Sgeo> It's been a while, hmm
02:58:09 <pikhq_> Yeah, DS9 is a rather series fantastic character-driven serial.
02:58:12 <Sgeo> I like plot-driven more, I think.
02:58:24 <Sgeo> What is Babylon 5 like?
02:58:58 <pikhq_> Sgeo: It's a 5 season story arc that executive meddling fucked up.
02:59:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I understand it's structurally very similar to DS9.
03:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> In which case: did you stop before the 10-episode finale?
03:01:11 <Gregor> Mmm, I'd say that the similarities between Babylon 5 and DS9 start and end with “space station”
03:01:14 <Sgeo> Season 7's the last one. I don't think I'm in the finale yet, but not sure.
03:01:52 <MDude> Well this is neat, in that I somehow made a thing that sounds like some kind of chirping insect: http://entropedia.co.uk/generative_music/#b6409DQ0CjRrCmxszM00lQ10owz0dXQ8E0sydArLiwqQZIy0dTUKlEAAA%3D%3D
03:03:02 <Gregor> Hmm, now this is odd… the tag on my new pants claims they're dry-clean only, but the site says “Machine washable/dry clean recommended”
03:03:36 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: DS9 only became arc-heavy as a response to B5 ;)
03:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ...so you're saying they have no similarities whilst acknowledging that one heavily influenced the other>
03:05:01 <Gregor> I'm basically made of lies.
03:05:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah but come on man, at least maintain internal consistency.
03:06:32 <oerjan> Gregor isn't externally consistent, how can he be internally
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03:08:30 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: See, if you can be proven consistent you are therefore not. Gregor avoids this problem by not even trying.
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05:10:37 <pikhq_> Gregor: Curse thee and thy ponies!
05:34:06 <quintopia> tell ais523 thanks for the info! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2007_October_10#Colored_text
05:34:11 <quintopia> @tell ais523 thanks for the info! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2007_October_10#Colored_text
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09:29:18 -!- Taneb has set topic: Behold! The enchanting pants of Narcissus! | Just a remote control and some old gum | Help Taneb give up saying "Hello" | With creativity, anything can be a topic | except this | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
09:31:45 <Taneb> Great, another thing's became popular just after I get bored of it
09:32:17 <Taneb> Why do have to endure the curse of the accidental hipster?
09:33:16 <Taneb> Oh, it's not so bad
09:33:48 <shachaf> Taneb: You're giving up "Hello!"?
09:34:01 <Taneb> It's been in the topic since last night
09:34:08 <shachaf> monqy gave up hi and that was sad.
09:34:23 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
09:34:39 <shachaf> @ask monqy what are all those messages!
09:35:51 <monqy> they were good "don't worry"
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11:20:04 <nortti> who here was thinking about money transfer protocol over ssh?
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13:16:03 <kmc> monqy transfer protocol
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13:19:46 <kmc> shachaf: do you hilight on "hichaf" yet?
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15:11:43 <oonbotti> root:x:0:0:Root Administrator:/root:/bin/ksh\nnobody:x:99:99:Unprivileged User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nwww:x:80:80:Web Server User:/var/www:/bin/false\nmessagebus:x:25:25:DBUS Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\nhaldaemon:x:26:26:HAL Daemon User:/dev/null:/bin/false\njuhani:x:1000:1000:Linux User,,,:/home/juhani:/bin/ksh\n
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16:09:46 <quintopia> nortti: probably "be written in piet"
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16:40:35 <ert3go> Hello , can anyone help me with brainfuck ?
16:42:38 <fizzie> quintopia: I'm under the impression it also did "connect to IRC", but I'm not entirely sure.
16:45:10 <ert3go> can I get help with brainfuck ?
16:45:27 <quintopia> everyone here is familiar with brainfuck
16:45:44 <ert3go> okay , I've tried to write a simple interpreter in C
16:48:26 <ert3go> quintopia, http://pastie.org/4450659
16:49:57 <jlaire> I'm looking at magical constants
16:50:02 <pikhq_> ert3go: I'd suggest omitting the printf("enter your input"); thing, as well as the default: case in the switch.
16:50:09 <ert3go> am i handling the case of nested loop properly ?
16:50:25 <ert3go> then how can an input be given pikhq_ ?
16:50:34 <pikhq_> In Brainfuck characters other than [].,><+- are *comments*, not invalid.
16:50:46 <soundnfury> As someone who's more familiar with C than brainfuck, I'd like to make a stylistic note or two
16:50:54 <pikhq_> Your getchar (well, scanf("%c")) thing does that just fine.
16:50:59 <soundnfury> it's conventional to put a space between #include and the <
16:51:19 <fizzie> Regarding the brainfuck side, [ looks wrong.
16:51:20 <soundnfury> and also either a space or a newline after the closing } of typedef struct {blah;} Stack;
16:51:43 <fizzie> [ is supposed to jump to matching ] when current cell is 0, not just be a pair for ].
16:51:44 <pikhq_> Hmm, yeah, it's not conditional.
16:52:01 <soundnfury> in fact generally your coding style seems inconsistent
16:52:12 <soundnfury> (it doesn't matter what it is, but it should be consistent)
16:52:30 <pikhq_> ert3go: A [ should have basically the same condition as ] there.
16:52:52 <soundnfury> there's no bounds-checking in the functions push() and pop()
16:53:07 <pikhq_> ert3go: if(*p) go to next instruction else go to matching ]
16:53:13 <pikhq_> That's basically the logic [ has.
16:53:36 <pikhq_> Or, equally, [ ... ] is while(*p){ ... }
16:53:40 <nortti> doesn't ] just jump back to previous [?
16:53:48 <soundnfury> lines 60-61 don't have the (presumably) desired effect in the case of two successive newlines
16:54:09 <soundnfury> (it maybe ought to be while() rather than if())
16:54:32 <ert3go> i am afraid I am confused . Can anyone modify the code ?
16:54:33 <soundnfury> although, that line would be removed if you treated "invalid" characters as comments
16:54:34 <pikhq_> soundnfury: Yeah, but he should just skip unknown characters *anyways*.
16:55:04 <fizzie> nortti: You can implement it that way if you want. But since the "previous [" (i.e. matching [) will just jump to one past the ] if !*p, quite commonly ] gets done as "jump to right after matching [ if *p, else nothing".
16:55:07 <pikhq_> ert3go: No, we're kinda just telling you what you need to fix. We're finding bugs for you, not writing your Brainfuck interpreter. :P
16:55:55 <ert3go> ok then let me get it correct
16:56:12 <ert3go> if i encounter a [ , and if(*p) , then i should execute next instruction ?
16:56:21 <soundnfury> more C issues: you're not bounds-checking 'p' (eg. take the program "<+", this will write to tape[-1])
16:56:50 <nortti> is that c++ comment on line 92?
16:56:50 <pikhq_> soundnfury: I generally don't care about handling that in a Brainfuck interpreter though.
16:56:53 <soundnfury> really you shouldn't use a char*p=tape; but instead a size_t p and use tape[p]
16:57:09 <pikhq_> It's undefined behavior in Brainfuck. So, eh.
16:57:14 <ert3go> <ert3go> if i encounter a [ , and if(*p) , then i should execute next instruction ?
16:57:49 <quintopia> ert3go: yes and if you encounter a [, and if(!*p), then you should execute the instruction after matching ]
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16:58:33 <ert3go> so that's a while loop as someone correctly mentioned
16:58:45 <soundnfury> line 87 may as well be putchar(*p) rather than using printf
16:59:01 <soundnfury> and the puts() at the end should really put a '\n'
16:59:25 <fizzie> soundnfury: puts adds a newline.
16:59:43 <ert3go> but err , do i need a stack ?
16:59:57 <FreeFull> puts(somestring); is equivalent to printf("%s\n", somestring);
17:00:11 <nortti> ert3go: yes unless you write recursive interpreter
17:00:11 * soundnfury doesn't know /why/ it does that, but you're right that it does
17:00:52 <soundnfury> ert3go: 'i' shouldn't be an int, but a size_t
17:01:14 <soundnfury> sizeOfFile really ought to be an off_t or perhaps a ssize_t
17:01:27 <nortti> ert3go: use it as a call stack
17:01:35 <soundnfury> line 52: DON'T cast the return value of malloc. Ever.
17:01:44 <soundnfury> malloc returns a void *, which casts implicitly
17:01:47 <ert3go> but it returns a void *
17:01:59 <quintopia> push the location of [ to a stack when encountered during execution and while searching for the matching ]
17:02:04 <jlaire> soundnfury: except when you want C++ compatibility
17:02:46 <soundnfury> http://c-faq.com/malloc/mallocnocast.html
17:03:14 <jlaire> that doesn't convince me
17:03:18 <copumpkin> " The compiler is likely to assume that malloc is a function returning int, which is of course incorrect, and will lead to trouble. "
17:03:27 <ert3go> location of i should be pushed only if (*p) ?
17:03:55 <jlaire> at least the compilers I've been using lately warn about that
17:04:04 <jlaire> implicit declarations of functions
17:04:18 <fizzie> nortti: I've seen quite a few non-recursive no-stack brainfuck interpreters. The "common" inefficient way to implement [/] is just "seek to matching ] or [ when necessary", and you don't need a stack for that, just a counter of current depth.
17:04:26 <ert3go> or can someone atleast tell the pseudocode for case '[' : ?
17:04:34 <quintopia> ert3go: why don't you just look at other interpreters if you can't see how to handle []?
17:04:43 <quintopia> it's no less "cheating" than asking us
17:05:03 <ert3go> quintopia, the other interpreters are little confusing , i'd like to try without seeing them
17:05:07 <soundnfury> jlaire: well, if you want to take up the argument, ask about it in comp.lang.c. While wearing flame-proof clothing ;)
17:05:18 <quintopia> ert3go: then try without asking too :P
17:05:25 <jlaire> soundnfury: I've seen this particular point debated a number of times there o_o
17:05:28 <ert3go> please quintopia , i really need help :(
17:05:40 <jlaire> most folks on comp.lang.c seem to hate c++ with a passion
17:05:57 <jlaire> nortti: casting malloc's return value
17:06:03 <jlaire> to (char *) or (int *) or whatever
17:06:21 <fizzie> ert3go: If you don't want to do any work in advance, a common [ is "if *p, go to next instruction; else { depth = 1; while (depth > 0) { go to next instruction; if [, depth++; if ], depth-- } }".
17:06:29 <nortti> I think you should probably not do it unless you find very good reason to do so
17:06:59 <fizzie> (Though it's also quite common to do a first pass to find all matching [] pairs and put them somewhere, so that it doesn't need to scan forward for the matching ].)
17:07:15 <jlaire> sometimes compatibility with C++ is a good reason, sometimes not; it just irks me to hear C-programmers saying you should *never* cast void* to another pointer type
17:07:36 <fizzie> (You can't use a stack maintained during execution to find the matching ], since it could be anywhere in the future program where you haven't even been in yet.)
17:09:19 <pikhq_> jlaire: It's bad style in C. And that's it.
17:09:19 <jlaire> soundnfury: you can say that again
17:09:28 <jlaire> pikhq_: why is it bad style
17:09:34 <FreeFull> Can we pretend C++ doesn't exist
17:09:36 <jlaire> soundnfury: (I like C++)
17:10:08 <fizzie> jlaire: For the reasons already mentioned in the comp.lang.c FAQ? The C++ compatibility aspect doesn't magically make it good style.
17:10:24 <jlaire> fizzie: the FAQ itself says that compilers warn about it
17:10:39 <jlaire> if that's the only argument against it, it's a very weak one
17:11:17 <pikhq_> jlaire: It's god damned clutter and noise is all!
17:11:43 <jlaire> pikhq_: now that is something I'll accept
17:12:10 <pikhq_> jlaire: Maybe in C++ the more characters you type the better, but down here we believe in characters *spent*. :)
17:12:39 <jlaire> pikhq_: that's not the C++ I know
17:14:27 <fizzie> Just because (some) compilers are "increasingly likely" to warn about implicit declarations doesn't make the "cast hides an important warning" argument meritless either; especially since (considering only C here) it doesn't really have drawbacks either.
17:15:04 <jlaire> fizzie: the few compilers I've used have all warned about it
17:21:38 <fizzie> Perhaps you've been using too good/new compilers, then. Anyway, GCC only warns in the special case of function it knows about, by default. If you're in the habit of casting void *'s from malloc, you'll probably cast them from zqalloc too, and that'll cause problems when you forget to #include "zqlib.h".
17:21:43 <fizzie> (Hypothetical library.)
17:22:03 <fizzie> (You need -Wall or -Wimplicit-function-declaration to get warnings for all implicit declarations.)
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17:23:21 <fizzie> I think I need to do some eating.
17:26:58 <FreeFull> http://patriciopalladino.com/blog/2012/08/09/non-alphanumeric-javascript.html
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17:32:44 <Gregor> I use -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic
17:33:04 <jlaire> I replace -ansi with -std=whatever
17:33:11 <jlaire> but otherwise, highfive
17:33:26 <Gregor> I like to go with c89 because I'm hardcore like that.
17:33:31 <Gregor> Features are for losers.
17:34:21 <jlaire> I don't usually write C
17:34:26 <jlaire> but when I do, I write C89
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17:45:15 <fungot> Taneb: no, the boy, do i? we're nazis, but we are not, ja, of the house! the entire earth has surrendered to you, our helpful. ' is phone is still workin' class, guv.
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17:45:28 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:45:39 <Taneb> I probably set it as that
17:45:50 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
17:45:54 <fungot> Taneb: let " persons" be universe; fnord fnord y="that can sit still. the professor took it as a general law, who do not drink coffee."'
17:46:06 <fungot> FreeFull: " all fnord are uncanny ( fnord all fnord are equal', i suppose. if not, why do things have names at all?' alice ventured to remark.
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17:56:05 <pikhq_> Now why did I write yet another Brainfuck implementation?
17:56:22 <pikhq_> I guess talking with someone about it compelled me. Bad damned habit there.
17:56:31 <pikhq_> It's not even an interesting one.
17:57:22 <pikhq_> I'd hesitate to call such a thing practice. If it were I would've at least, y'know, parsed.
17:58:29 <Taneb> Make your own speaking language
17:58:31 <pikhq_> This was literally a waste of 20 minutes.
17:58:51 <fizzie> Gregor: Where's your -Wextra, huh?
17:59:07 <fizzie> Or "-W" for the oldskool way of spelling it.
17:59:27 <fizzie> "-Wall" -- the worstly named option?
17:59:39 <fizzie> (Since it's so far from 'all'.)
18:00:00 <Taneb> If I ever write a compiler, it will have -Ceiling and -Floor options
18:00:09 <pikhq_> About the only thing it has going for it is simplicity.
18:01:19 <nortti> Taneb: my compiler has -AnotherWall
18:01:32 <Taneb> pikhq_, that's... the third letter of the alphabet
18:01:48 <Taneb> That's the name of 2 esolangs...
18:02:10 <Taneb> "2", that's precisely the number of dimensions Befunge runs in!
18:04:29 <Gregor> fizzie: I'm goin' back and making Fythe compile with -Wall -Wextra -ansi -pedantic now.
18:04:51 <nortti> Gregor: why not -Werror?
18:05:02 <Gregor> Whoops, missed -Werror
18:05:22 <fizzie> If the policy is "no warnings are acceptable", -Werror is a bit superfluous.
18:05:29 <Gregor> Oh yeah, because it complains about unused parameters. That's stupid.
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18:06:05 <fizzie> You can IIRC quiet those with a "(void)a;" statement.
18:06:29 <fizzie> At least that's a common thing, I don't recall if it helped on GCC.
18:07:14 <jlaire> you can use unnamed parameters, int f(int x, int b, int)
18:07:39 <fizzie> There was a commonly-ishly done warning-silencing trick that on GCC had the opposite effect, it just caused new warnings. (With sufficiently high warning levels.)
18:08:22 <olsner> I think (void)a works to remove unused params warnings, but (void)(a,b) will cause a no-side-effects warning
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18:10:49 <Gregor> OK, I'll go with -Wall -Wextra -Werror -Wno-unused-parameter, because the last one, although understandable, is just silly.
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18:11:24 <olsner> yeah, the unused parameter warning is not very useful
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18:11:52 <soundnfury> it seems reasonable to me to decorate your function with __attribute__((unused)) if you really do want an unused parameter
18:12:28 <olsner> if you only want to compile on gcc, sure
18:12:34 <fizzie> "Reasonable" to decorate your otherwise pure-ANSI... right.
18:12:49 <fizzie> Anyway, you could have an UNUSED macro to do that.
18:12:49 <jlaire> of course things like that are hidden behind macros
18:12:59 <jlaire> UNUSED_PARAM or some such
18:13:07 <pikhq> And autoconf it up?
18:13:08 <soundnfury> well, for other compilers you can pass -D__attribute__\(\(unused\)\)=
18:13:32 <fizzie> soundnfury: You can't have a macro with (( in the name.
18:13:43 <soundnfury> other way round then, with an UNUSED macro
18:13:57 <pikhq> soundnfury: It does suck, but it sucks less than most alternatives when you need/want to check for certain features.
18:14:43 <soundnfury> typically by having something like "-include config.mak" strategically placed in the Makefile
18:14:56 <soundnfury> and cunning use of deferred assignment
18:14:56 <pikhq> Also, for the love of all that's sane don't cargo cult autoconf...
18:15:31 <pikhq> i.e. don't use autoscan, it just makes Bad autoconf files.
18:15:51 <soundnfury> anyone compiling from source is intelligent enough to know what to put in the config.mak
18:16:15 <soundnfury> as for distro packagers, it's their whole /raison d'etre/ to deal with that kind of thing
18:16:27 <pikhq> autoscan basically generates an autoconf file that checks for every god-damned ISO C feature.
18:16:46 <pikhq> AC_PROG_CC_C99 and we're done.
18:16:51 <soundnfury> ordinary package users shouldn't have to run a script that tests that the cc creates runnable executables, ffs
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18:16:57 <nortti> pikhq: I once found one that checks for fortran 77 features of my system
18:17:34 <pikhq> soundnfury: Part of that is autoconf being overly complex in a few areas, but most of that is that people have no clue how to use it.
18:17:35 <fizzie> Anyway, since some other compilers will need the "(void)a;" thing, if you do want the __attribute__, you'll end up with something like void f(UNUSED_PARAM int a) { UNUSED(a); ... } where GCC gets #define UNUSED_PARAM __attribute__ ((unused)) #define UNUSED(x) /* empty */ and the others get #define UNUSED_PARAM /* nothing */ #define UNUSED(x) (void)x, or the like.
18:18:41 <jlaire> which is just so much clearer than void f(int) { ... }
18:19:24 <soundnfury> jlaire: yeah but usually you shouldn't /have/ functions with unused parameters
18:19:40 <soundnfury> in which case maintainability demands that you draw attention to it
18:19:42 <pikhq> soundnfury: Such as writing a callback.
18:19:48 <soundnfury> the exception is for callback-heavy code
18:19:50 <olsner> jlaire: that requires c++
18:19:56 <pikhq> Which is used less than it should be in C.
18:19:56 <jlaire> olsner: my subtle point, yes
18:20:22 <FreeFull> I wish there was Go but without garbage collection
18:20:42 <soundnfury> though in that case I /still/ choose to leave -Wunused-params active, and write the __attribute__s
18:22:15 * soundnfury quite likes that void f(int) { ... } approach
18:22:22 <soundnfury> and is amazed to learn that C++ gets something /right/!
18:23:17 <fizzie> They have more of the "implement this inherited thing with a fixed prototype" kind of thing going on, perhaps there was more call for such a feature.
18:23:20 <olsner> c++ also adds single-line comments and mixed code and declarations, those are nice
18:23:42 <pikhq> olsner: C also has those.
18:23:50 <pikhq> However, the IE6 of compilers doesn't implement it.
18:23:57 <olsner> yeah, but it's new for C99?
18:24:07 <Sgeo> What's the IE6 of compilers?
18:24:08 <pikhq> ... Dude, C99 is *13 years old*.
18:24:12 <pikhq> Sgeo: Microsoft Visual C++.
18:24:18 <pikhq> Sgeo: They don't support C99.
18:24:23 <fizzie> It's got "++" in the name.
18:24:54 <pikhq> They added C++ support to it, and let the C frontend go untouched for over a decade.
18:24:56 <jlaire> C99 is obsolete, long live C11!
18:25:12 <pikhq> It still functions as a C compiler, but it was last updated in the 90s.
18:25:22 <fizzie> The C compiler in it is just for compiling old code, after all.
18:25:27 <fizzie> (That's what they said.)
18:25:34 <jlaire> yeah, who would write c these days?
18:25:54 <pikhq> With Microsoft's attitude, nobody on Windows. :P
18:26:05 <nortti> because c is good programming language
18:26:22 <pikhq> Also, Microsoft's @#%@@ API support.
18:26:57 <pikhq> Which means any code on the platform is basically doing #if WINDOWS ... #else ... #endif
18:27:12 <pikhq> s/any/any portable/
18:27:31 <soundnfury> when I have to port something to Windows, I just cross-compile with mingw on my (linux, naturally) box
18:27:50 <soundnfury> and then throw DLLs into the tarball until it works :/
18:28:27 <pikhq> Also, whoever did the LPSTR nonsense deserves to be shot.
18:28:40 <nortti> soundnfury: I used to use mingw msys. then I no longer ported anything to windows
18:29:29 <olsner> with all that "long pointer" support in the windows APIs, they should've done their x64 stuff using two pointer sizes
18:30:16 <fizzie> WPARAM wParam, LPARAM lParam.
18:30:48 <pikhq> Also, whoever's responsible for *not supporting UTF-8* should be beaten.
18:31:32 <pikhq> If you're using a char* on Windows it's a legacy charset.
18:32:20 <pikhq> You only get Unicode with wchar_t, which is UTF-16, which is what Microsoft calls "Unicode", because they're a bunch of mouth-breathers.
18:32:51 <jlaire> both microsoft and java suffer from being "early adopters"
18:33:14 <olsner> oh, wparam and lparam... reminds me of working with a code base that decided to build their own message passing framework where every callback gets one INT16 and one INT32 parameter
18:33:15 <jlaire> that's not to say that they should've changed things in the past 15 years :|
18:33:25 <pikhq> Java at least has the benefit that their *normal APIs* support Unicode, and it "just works".
18:33:33 <pikhq> On Windows you actually have to go out of your way to handle it.
18:33:40 <olsner> (where the INT32 parameter gets force-fed a pointer in 90% of cases)
18:34:10 <pikhq> Because there's no way to bludgeon the system into saying "Dude, I'd like UTF-8, let me pretend legacy charsets don't exist."
18:35:15 <fizzie> You do have to go "out of your way" to handle UTF-16 properly with Java, since the "normal" String methods are in terms of chars, and you get halves of surrogate pairs all the time.
18:35:26 <pikhq> Oh, right, it's UCS-2.
18:35:32 <pikhq> They too must be tortured.
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18:36:51 <jlaire> JNI has its own "modified UTF-8" where characters outside the BMP are first converted to two surrogate pairs, and then each of those is encoded in UTF-8
18:37:02 <olsner> pikhq: was that referring to Windows or Java?
18:37:09 <Sgeo> What does SWI-Prolog do?
18:37:09 <jlaire> which can only be explained by historical reasons
18:37:14 <olsner> at least Java is actually UTF-16, except that no-one knows that so they end up using the data as if it's UCS-2
18:37:21 <Sgeo> I'm under the impression that Tcl is generally good with Unicode?
18:37:42 <pikhq> Sgeo: It's modified UTF-8, as per Java.
18:37:45 <pikhq> Yes, it's retarded.
18:38:03 <pikhq> Where you use surrogate pairs.
18:38:16 <fizzie> olsner: The alternative functions that deal with the UTFy parts of UTF-16 *are* a bit awkward to use.
18:38:19 <Sgeo> Isn't that a UTF-16 thing?
18:38:30 <pikhq> That's what happens when you convert UTF-16 to UTF-8 by pretending it's UCS-2.
18:38:43 <pikhq> i.e. when you're an idiot.
18:39:18 <jlaire> also, the 0 character is encoded as two non-zero bytes
18:39:26 <Sgeo> Will 8.6 fix this?
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18:40:01 <Sgeo> Or were you referring to SWI-Prolog?
18:40:19 <olsner> jlaire: hmm, does Java allow embedded nulls in strings?
18:40:40 <olsner> I thought the special nulls came from a different variant of modified UTF-8
18:40:43 <jlaire> olsner: I don't know off-hand, I've just been dealing with JNI
18:40:57 <jlaire> different variant of modified UTF-8, please god...
18:41:51 <olsner> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CESU-8 :)
18:42:37 <olsner> hehe, in mysql to get actual utf-8 you need to ask for the "utf8mb4" encoding
18:43:16 <olsner> because "utf8" is actually CESU-8
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18:47:12 <Gregor> The fact that CESU-8 exists makes me sad.
18:48:03 <Taneb> BECAUSE IT MAKES HIS TROUSERS BLUE
18:48:08 <Gregor> It's like layering UTF-16 encoding on top of UTF-8 encoding, and as far as I can tell is only borderline-useful for compatibility with broken things encoding from Java's broken attempt at UTF-16.
18:48:14 <ion> Huh. I didn’t expect there to exist slightly incompatible versions of UTF-8.
18:50:10 <olsner> UTF-8 doesn't have variants, there is only UTF-8
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18:51:18 <olsner> the variants are all variants of something completely different than UTF-8 :)
18:51:39 <ion> s/versions/forks/
18:53:09 <soundnfury> unsigned int answer=0x2b|!0x2b; // 43, universe has off-by-one error
18:55:41 <nortti> +'t x|!x always all !0 ?
18:57:04 <olsner> I think it's (x ? x : 1)
18:57:12 <nortti> isn't ! bitwise negate?
18:57:52 <nortti> was | boolean or bitwise?
18:58:01 <oonbotti> Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family.
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19:02:34 <Taneb> AnotherTest, don't become the new me!
19:06:31 <Taneb> AnotherTest, don't become the new monqy!
19:06:47 <Taneb> Start by saying something profound!
19:07:03 <Taneb> Or a titbit of news
19:08:39 <jlaire> that's right on topic here
19:10:09 <Taneb> I have been studying how I may compare
19:10:16 <Taneb> This prison where I live unto the world
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19:10:44 <Taneb> But for because this world is populous, and here is not a creature but myself
19:10:57 <Taneb> I cannot do it! Yet I'll hammer it out. My brain
19:11:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Page closed).
19:11:07 <Taneb> I'll prove the female to my soul, my soul the father
19:11:22 <Taneb> And these two beget a generation of still-breeding thoughts
19:11:44 <Taneb> And these same thoughts people this little world
19:11:56 <Taneb> In humour like the people of this world, for no thought is contented
19:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, can you do that next time AnotherTest shows up?
19:16:29 <Taneb> Recite Richard II?
19:16:43 <Taneb> I'd better actually learn it
19:16:55 <Taneb> I sort of know about a quarter of that speech
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19:23:15 <Taneb> I'll prove the female to my soul, my soul the father
19:23:23 <Taneb> And these two beget a generation of still-breeding thoughts
19:23:30 <Taneb> And these same thoughts people this little world
19:23:43 <Taneb> In humour like the people of this world, for no thought is contented
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19:24:53 <kmc> http://imgur.com/a/CmQBL
19:25:40 <Taneb> kmc, don't suck up all the water in the ground!
19:26:07 <kmc> 200 zł fine if you do
19:26:41 <Taneb> What's a z squiggly l?
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19:27:27 <kmc> it's from a hostel in warszawa
19:28:41 <soundnfury> of course, "zl" is just one character away from another currency unit, "zm"
19:28:56 <kmc> 200 PLN is about €50
19:28:58 <kmc> what's a zm?
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19:32:00 <Phantom_Hoover> With scruples and do set the word itself against the word:
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19:54:48 <boily> I love this channel's level of insanity it achieves on Fridays. it has this special flavour to it...
20:02:32 <coppro> unicode is broken again :/
20:02:54 <oerjan> they should not have added that nyarlathotep glyph
20:03:51 <oerjan> yes but now there's a 1% chance of any non-basic plane character being eaten in transit
20:05:01 <nortti> at least they haven't added the basilisk eye glyph
20:05:34 <oerjan> they weren't _that_ stoned at the meeting.
20:05:53 <fizzie> Going plain astray on the astral plane.
20:06:37 <nortti> by the way can you give me codepoint for the nyarlathotep glyph?
20:06:50 <oerjan> no, it might wreck my keyboard
20:08:25 <boily> there's 🐙U+1F419 that may serve as some very broad approximation for all things tentacly.
20:10:04 <jlaire> zalgo breaks screen so completely it's beautiful
20:14:46 <jlaire> T̛͕͉̜̼̝̩͉̟ͩ͋͞oͭ̈́̋ͤ͏͈̫̤͖̘͈̥̪ͅ ̰̹͕ͧ̾́̿̓͒ͯͥ̚͡i̧̠̱͓̖̱̘ͧ͌ͧ̔͛̎̈n͇̳̪̙̩͉̍ͦ̒̊̍ͤ̄ͅͅv̡͉͈͎͋̽ͤͭ̚ȯ͇̳̏ͤ̂͂̅̚͢ķ̴̦̲̫͑̈ͧ̚ẹ̛͍̦ͣ̌̋ͪ̍̅̈́̇ͅ ̷̵̙̙̱̤̏́̉̾̏̚t̜̖͈̾h̩̬̯̺͎ͬ͆̕ë̶̻͎̺̟̲͈́̊͊̍̚͠ ̴͚̟͐̒̅ͮ̀́ĥͪ́҉̝̜̯̪͎í͉̲͔̱̯̙͗̾ͧͨ̓͗̀v̴̯͖͕̭̍̃̆ͥ̔ͦ́͠e̛͕̜ͩͭ͐͒̏͠-̶̞̻ͧ͆̈̅̅ͤ̋͂́
20:15:23 <Taneb> Wow I can type really fast sometimes
20:15:38 <Taneb> I didn't realise I could
20:15:42 <Taneb> And now I can't...
20:16:43 <nortti> jlaire: fbcons breaks with that
20:17:01 <nortti> thinking too much about lisp right now
20:17:03 <coppro> quintopia: screen cannot do unicode properly
20:17:19 <jlaire> nortti: my own screen is completely messed up right now
20:17:31 <jlaire> I see 2 irssi windows overlapped
20:18:16 <nortti> jlaire: I just seeT■■K■[■^■U■I■\■■]■■I■_o■■D■K■■O■H■■■E■V■X■H■■ ■■■A■■S■R■Z■■■■■■Ui■■L■■T■[■N■H■■■■S■V■■Xn■M■■R■J■M■■D■E■G■■■Y■■E■Iv■K■■■Z■■■I■H■No■Z■G■O■■B■B■E■■G■k■Q■H■■Z■■■■■e■■L■K■■M■E■D■G■[■■M■E■ ■Z■O■A■I■■O■■■Y■Y■■t■
20:18:50 <nortti> jlaire: I mean that is what your message looks like
20:20:05 <quintopia> coppro: sure, but at least it doesn't fuck up completely
20:20:57 <quintopia> TÍ©ÍKÌ[Í^ÍUÍIÌ\̼Ì]Ì©ÍIÌ_oÍÍDÌKͤÍOÍH̫̤ÍEÍVÌXÍH̥̪
20:21:09 <quintopia> and like three more lines that are similar
20:21:20 <jlaire> I see 2 missing lines that were eaten
20:21:34 <coppro> quintopia: no it does not
20:22:03 <quintopia> coppro: perhaps i have my charsets set up to save me
20:22:11 <coppro> or you're just getting lucky
20:22:24 <Taneb> This seems the best place to ask
20:22:44 <coppro> quintopia: oh it will work with irssi
20:23:32 <Taneb> In the UK, is it legal to get a ticket from a station to a station, then get off at the penultimate station only to get on later?
20:23:38 <Taneb> And complete the journey
20:24:33 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure there is a ticket type that lets you
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20:31:40 <Taneb> I wonder if I could a cheaper ticket by promising I'm not going to go into London on my journey
20:31:52 <Taneb> Even though I'm closer to Aberdeen
20:32:46 <Taneb> Hexham's about half way between Birmingham and Aberdeen
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20:37:38 <kmc> Taneb: my travel agent informs me that if the ticket says "any permitted", it's ok
20:37:46 <kmc> but some advance tickets come with additional restrictions
20:38:06 <kmc> there's some time limit (1 month?)
20:38:47 <kmc> i really like how national rail fares are integrated with tube fares in the london area
20:39:42 <Taneb> Rail fairs are crazy
20:39:47 <kmc> within london you can take national rail instead of the tube, for the same price
20:39:50 <kmc> and sometimes this is much faster
20:39:57 <Taneb> I think ais523 linked a forum post about it
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20:40:08 <kmc> also if your national rail trip takes you through london and you need to transfer between stations, the tube journey between those stations is included
20:41:33 <kmc> in america none of this works properly
20:41:36 <kmc> not too surprising
20:42:28 <kmc> i don't know if it works in other european cities
20:49:05 <Taneb> National Rail is held together with ad-hoc decisions and duct tape
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20:54:07 <kmc> i like the sketchy legal status of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail
20:55:28 <kmc> which allowed the government to essentially re-nationalize the infrastructure ownership
20:55:58 <kmc> without actually doing so in name, which would trigger some clause for the owners of the previous private infrastructure owner
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21:32:59 <shachaf> kmc: Nope. Do you hilight on "heegan"?
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21:37:52 <kmc> no, should i?
21:38:24 <oerjan> best to highlight on h.* to be sure
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23:29:12 <nortti_> can you notice the difference? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nyarlathotep.jpg http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haiyorenyarukosanln.jpg
23:32:17 <nortti_> the firsr one is Nyarlathotep and the second is a Nyarlathotep
23:52:37 <FreeFull> nortti_: I don't see the difference