←2012-06 2012-07 2012-08→ ↑2012 ↑all
2012-07-01
00:03:25 <itidus21> pretty cool http://www.digitalmzx.net/wiki/images/1/18/Sm4mzx_gameplay.png
00:04:33 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523\itexplode.
00:06:23 <zzo38> That is one MegaZeux game.
00:07:00 <zzo38> Without the animation of gameplay it does not explain the game well, though.
00:07:28 <itidus21> i think it's good when you can't infer much from a screenshot
00:07:46 <Vorpal> ais523\itexplode, what is up with that nick?
00:08:56 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
00:08:58 <zzo38> Do you like this game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png
00:09:40 <itidus21> that is the greatest computer game ever to exist
00:10:32 <zzo38> Are you sure?
00:11:37 <itidus21> no
00:11:39 <zzo38> Maybe you like this MegaZeux game? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip (Incomplete; you also need MegaZeux to run this game)
00:12:48 <itidus21> i have long ago abandoned enjoying fiction
00:13:48 <itidus21> i don't know what the trick is to enjoying fiction
00:15:18 <itidus21> when i was younger i used to believe that it was imbued with wisdom in some way
00:15:30 <itidus21> that i could get something out of it
00:17:00 <itidus21> that i could just enjoy it in and of itself
00:22:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, most fiction has nothing to do with wisdom (sure there are cases where there they are related)
00:22:13 <Vorpal> it is just for enjoyment
00:22:25 <Vorpal> itidus21, I guess you don't enjoy computer games or movies either then?
00:22:43 <Vorpal> nor fictional books
00:22:51 <itidus21> not as much as i once did
00:23:10 <Vorpal> oh well, everyone is different
00:23:13 <itidus21> comics i still dig!
00:23:46 <itidus21> maybe i can like them..
00:23:51 <itidus21> just not today
00:24:02 <Vorpal> comics? Never been into that
00:24:18 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway that is equally fiction
00:24:26 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
00:24:31 <zzo38> Computer game involve things other than just fictional story
00:24:57 <zzo38> (Some may not even involve story at all; or a story will be added on afterward and is not really a part of the game)
00:25:01 <itidus21> im feeling too sleepy to make sense.. but well i had enouhg sleep
00:25:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, yes... but a story is an important part of a lot of computer games (except for really simple ones like, say, tetris or minesweeper).
00:25:39 <itidus21> im just blabbering.
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00:25:54 <Vorpal> most of the games I tend to play are heavily story-oriented, or at least features a story as an important part
00:27:26 <zzo38> Good story oriented computer games include text adventure games are good game
00:27:44 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude
00:28:10 <itidus21> afk
00:28:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, did you just say that?
00:29:06 <Vorpal> huh
00:29:11 * Vorpal tries to parse it
00:30:58 <zzo38> Text adventure games can resemble a role-playing game but by computer and single-player, and of course the computer does not understand everything you are trying to do
00:31:19 <Vorpal> RPGs can be single player
00:31:44 <zzo38> Yes they can be; they can even be no-player; but that is not what is relevant
00:33:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, where was your web server now again?
00:33:47 <zzo38> On my computer!
00:33:57 <Vorpal> well, I mean URL
00:34:38 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ but there is nothing there; you need the filename
00:34:59 <Vorpal> right
00:35:19 <zzo38> I already posted the filenames above, though
00:35:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, it just has a link to gopher that I can't open
00:35:43 <zzo38> Yes I know, like I said you need the filename
00:35:51 <Vorpal> right
00:36:00 <Vorpal> well I need to sleep
00:36:01 <Vorpal> cya
00:39:26 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game I have figured out a plan to continue (I need the chancellor's autograph); I figured out, I now need a wig and I need to cut off his beard and moustache, etc. And take his belongings and destroy them (unless it is money, in which case I can exchange them for gold and give the gold coins to the king).
00:39:52 <zzo38> However I might need a Time Hop spell of a greater duration than normal.
00:42:52 <zzo38> Perhaps if he refuses to give me his autograph, I can find his signature in the royal documents and if I find one describing a bad law that he is trying to pass, I can steal that document.
00:44:51 <itidus21> back
00:44:59 <itidus21> i feel a bit better
00:45:01 <itidus21> i think
00:45:27 <zzo38> In order to kill the demon I think I will need to do many other things first, including trick the chancellor, kill the chancellor, not letanyone know he is dead, and many political issues, especially since he did many bad things and stole the king (so we need to find the king too), and then need help from a beholder and from forcing the demon to chase us around the world.
00:45:33 <itidus21> i suppose i still like fiction
00:45:41 <zzo38> I already have some of the tools I need, such as astrolabe and shovel.
00:48:09 <zzo38> The chancellor is bald, therefore I will need a wig.
00:48:23 <zzo38> And something to force it to stay on his head.
00:49:11 <zzo38> And then the castle will be restored to its rightful king (whom I have never seen, so this might be difficult).
00:54:53 <zzo38> The royal wizard is also helping and he also hates the chancellor like I have also realized he was doing bad things, after using a disguise to go into the king's chamber I could find out more information and now I can confirm the chancellor is on the same team as the demon and they do evil jobs for each other.
00:55:34 <zzo38> However, even though the royal wizard would also want the chancellor dead, I think it is best that he does not know yet; I think it is even best that even I do not know yet, therefore I can cast Modify Memory on myself.
00:56:31 <zzo38> All I found in the king's bed was a dummy.
00:57:18 <shachaf> kmc: I got my flag shirt!
00:57:25 <itidus21> so i got megazeux and tried the super mario demo. pretty cool that they did all that in textmode
00:58:08 <zzo38> Yes it is. Did you try the Caverns of Zeux, Forest of Zeux, etc? Did you try my MegaZeux games (I linked two of them)?
01:00:10 <itidus21> the thing about it is, i have an obsession with super mario bros.
01:01:06 <zzo38> I have once made up a Action Replay cheat code for Super Mario Land to turn off the music but keep the sound effect on.
01:02:20 <itidus21> ok. s/^... /i have an interest in super mario bros./
01:03:00 <FireFly> that substitution doesn't make sense
01:03:11 <itidus21> ya..
01:03:26 <zzo38> I have played Super Mario Bros too I wanted to make it invisible Mario to make the game more difficult, I managed to do so
01:03:47 <itidus21> i mean to say
01:04:10 <itidus21> ok. s/i have an obsession with super mario bros/i have an interest in super mario bros/
01:04:32 <itidus21> zzo38 reminds me of the kinds of things truely obsessed people do
01:15:40 <itidus21> i mean in other words.. i have done nothing to truely represent an obsession with it
01:15:49 <itidus21> i havent devoted real time and energy
01:16:44 <zzo38> Try to play the computer games that I made up, see if you can understand it
01:21:26 <itidus21> i like the term computer games because the computer is really the singular element distinguishing them from other games
01:22:16 <itidus21> board games and card games can be exactly the same regardless of whether they're played on a computer for example
01:22:42 <zzo38> Yes, well, mostly
01:23:03 <itidus21> also there exists sound-only games designed with the blind in mind
01:23:51 <zzo38> Yes there are some
01:24:26 <itidus21> and some interactive fiction is like choose your own adventure books and the like doesn't require a computer
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02:13:21 <zzo38> edwardk: O, you are on this channel too now?
02:13:36 <edwardk> i wander back after a while and everyone thinks its strange ;)
02:13:47 <edwardk> i used to lurk in here more regularly
02:14:00 <zzo38> OK. Well, I suppose either I did not notice or I forgot.
02:14:02 <olsner> used to? how long ago was that?
02:14:10 <zzo38> But it is not a problem nevertheless.
02:14:20 <olsner> I don't recall seeing you here before yesterday :)
02:14:25 <edwardk> no worries. =) I stalked kmc in. ;)
02:14:43 <edwardk> olsner: i chattered with you and oklopol and some of the others a few years ago
02:14:55 <edwardk> he had some silly language
02:15:29 <olsner> oh, that time, that was a while before I started coming here regularly
02:15:30 <edwardk> and we talked about kata, so it was probably ~4 years back
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02:15:56 <olsner> if it was when everyone was inventing a silly human language
02:16:06 <edwardk> sounds about right
02:17:05 <edwardk> i mostly wandered away because i switched irc clients and forgot to add this one back to the list of what i log into
02:17:14 <zzo38> Does the class codensity monad of a commutative idempotent monoid form a set?
02:17:36 <zzo38> edwardk: What IRC client did you used to use and what you switched to?
02:17:38 <edwardk> hrmm good question, seems like it would
02:17:39 <olsner> code density monad
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02:18:35 <zzo38> The class density comonad of a copeanoid (my Copeanoid class) is a non-empty list comonad even with the same meanings of duplicate and extract.
02:18:40 <edwardk> zzo38: i used to use pidgin, then adium, then xchat, now i use textual
02:18:51 <edwardk> zzo38: sounds about right
02:19:07 <edwardk> you can get the non-empty list monad just by using Free Semigroup
02:19:12 <olsner> I wonder if reddit also got hit by the leap second bug
02:19:22 <zzo38> edwardk: And yes I did realize that too!
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02:20:03 <edwardk> and Maybe as Free Default, if you use class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r then Free (Algebra f) is just the free monad over the f functor
02:20:49 <zzo38> You used four kind of IRC clients? I just wrote an IRC client and before I used this, I used telnet to connect to IRC, which does not work so well.
02:21:16 <edwardk> well, this was recently. before that i used others. i think i first used ircii
02:21:21 <olsner> wow, using telnet for IRC, that's hardcore
02:21:37 <edwardk> i used to use bitchx way back when as well
02:21:48 <olsner> otoh, I should not be surprised that the world's last gopher user would also try that :)
02:21:49 <edwardk> but its hard to take any project with a name like that seriously
02:21:54 <edwardk> hah
02:22:08 <edwardk> i remember gopher. not fondly, but i remember it. =)
02:22:25 <edwardk> it was pretty much my first exposure to the internet at large coming out of the bbs world
02:22:29 <zzo38> Now I use PHIRC which unlike using telnet, allows you to backspace, does syntax highlighting, support macros, hides the password, and auto-pong and so on too
02:22:53 <zzo38> edwardk: Gopher and BBS are still used somewhat (and I am not the only one).
02:22:54 <edwardk> oh and i guess i still use colloquy when i want to irc from the ipad
02:23:22 <shachaf> edwardk: kmc will be gone for two weeks soon, I hear!
02:23:25 <edwardk> i used to be overly obsessed with the detroit area bbs scene
02:23:29 <edwardk> shachaf: ack
02:23:47 <edwardk> er both ACKnowledged and, "ack!"
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02:24:43 <mroman> An IRC client with syntax highlighting?
02:24:43 <zzo38> BBS systems today are commonly Synchronet and are accessed by internet rather than telephone. Usually telnet is used, however Synchronet also supports rlogin, SSH, NNTP, SMTP, HTTP (including server-side JavaScript), gopher, FTP, and IRC.
02:25:17 <edwardk> i actually wrote a FOSSIL driver around 92 or so that was used to move the regional fidonet hub onto the internet for mail exchange
02:25:18 <zzo38> mroman: Yes. Sender is cyan, command is bright white, short parameters are white, long parameters are bright blue (the colon in front is normal white, though).
02:26:20 <edwardk> used to run bbs's off of OS/2 and DESQview. sheesh, i'd forgotten about DESQview
02:26:38 <edwardk> (and of course DOS)
02:28:11 <edwardk> i wrote a bbs software like TAG called 'psychosys', and a bunch of door games that were used by a lot of ISPs in the area - yes, i was a kid, and it sounded edgy.
02:28:36 <edwardk> er s/ISPs/BBSs/
02:28:42 <olsner> I have seen a BBS once
02:28:54 <zzo38> Do you still have any of those door games, and are they compatible with Synchronet?
02:29:29 <edwardk> i might have the source to one or two of them, but keep in mind these are DOS BBS doors, written in turbo pascal probably 5.0, 5.5 or 6.0
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02:29:46 <edwardk> and they are designed to talk to an old dos era fossil driver
02:30:07 * shachaf complains vaguely about ptrace.
02:30:09 <itidus21> is a door game about going from room to room via doors?
02:30:20 <olsner> edwardk: what's a "door" in this context?
02:30:23 <zzo38> Synchronet does support DOS programs and does support FOSSIL as well, and possibly the source codes could be adjusted a bit to compile for a free compiler.
02:30:53 <edwardk> oh, no, door games were where you'd step out of the bbs and into a separate application that would take over the connection and play, the BBS would basically terminate but stay resident, the door would take up the rest of the memory and start running
02:31:01 <zzo38> I still play BBS door games, and access FidoNet and stuff, today, on X-BIT. Telnet to x-bit.org port 23 you need an account
02:31:17 <edwardk> and then when they came back in from the door the BBS would take back over interaction
02:31:53 <edwardk> the door protocol was also how the mail loader that would deal with most fidonet era BBSs would launch the mail exchanger.
02:32:20 <edwardk> it'd pick up the line, check to see if it was another bbs calling that wanted to toss mail, then dump into that mode before hanging up, or it'd go to the usual bbs startup
02:32:39 <edwardk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBS_door
02:32:44 <zzo38> Some modern door games are written in server-side JavaScript (which Synchronet supports).
02:33:09 <edwardk> if i'm going to write a door in javascript i might as well just run it in the browser ;)
02:33:10 <zzo38> That toss mail stuff still works today using QWK.
02:33:28 <mroman> zzo38: Oh.
02:33:39 <edwardk> i used to work with paul williams from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAG_(BBS)
02:33:40 <mroman> I thought syntax highlighting for code.
02:33:58 <edwardk> and knew a number of the telegard guys as well
02:34:29 <edwardk> mostly by dint of being an obnoxious obsessive kid who would chat with anyone ;)
02:35:10 <olsner> if everyone built their BBS:es on z/VM, I guess doors would be done as virtual machines
02:35:32 <zzo38> There still are many Synchronet BBSes today and many of the modern games are written in JavaScript, although to the client it is the same as if it were a DOS program or native program.
02:36:49 <edwardk> sadly none of the ones out of michigan descend from the horst mann bbs list era ;)
02:36:55 <zzo38> One game I like best is Word Warp, which I still play today. Scores are kept per month.
02:37:53 <edwardk> http://bbslist.textfiles.com/313/ has a lot of the wrong names for sysops, etc. odd
02:38:03 <zzo38> edwardk: Well, yes, they are new ones since they are by internet instead of telephone, and as far as I know the only software that existed in those days for telephone BBS and now works with internet BBS is Synchronet. So if they have a Synchronet BBS, it is possible for it to still exist today on the internet.
02:39:01 <edwardk> i found an old 5 1/4" floppy from that era with some of my old pascal source code on it
02:39:09 <edwardk> but i don't have anything to read it with =(
02:40:09 <zzo38> I will tell you what I have used for that purpose: I used a compiler with 5 1/4" floppy drive and connect it to a laptop computer by serial port.
02:40:15 <edwardk> it should have a little populous style over-world 320x200 game engine for rendering the overland map from my mud, a little novalogic "voxel" style cave exploration engine, etc
02:41:30 <edwardk> my mom mentioned she found some of my even older 5 1/4" floppies from when i used CP/M =/
02:41:37 <edwardk> those will be even more awkward to read
02:42:03 <edwardk> mostly just used to boot into it from the commodore 128
02:42:17 <edwardk> i wound up moving to the PC because of turbo pascal. it gave me a migration path ;)
02:42:37 <edwardk> (tp 3.0 or so had both CP/M and DOS versions)
02:42:51 <zzo38> I sometimes write computer game programs in QBASIC.
02:43:06 <edwardk> i'm not that masochistic ;)
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02:43:40 <zzo38> All of these program in public domain
02:43:53 <zzo38> Including source-codes.
02:44:02 <zzo38> I can show it to you if you want to.
02:44:42 <edwardk> i wrote my disassembler on a lark when i was 8 or so when i lied and told a kid i'd written one and had to make good, and after i wrote the little assembly monitor i used to enter code, the only time i ever bothered with basic on the c64 was when forced.
02:45:05 <edwardk> quickbasic programs? no thanks =)
02:45:42 <zzo38> Some people have said these are good game
02:46:21 <zzo38> edwardk: Also, can you show me how you can make free monad over the functor by class Algebra f r where phi :: f r -> r
02:46:51 <edwardk> its in ralf hinze's article
02:46:54 <zzo38> (And what it has to do with algebra)
02:47:04 <edwardk> that is an f-algebra
02:47:13 <edwardk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-algebra
02:47:33 <zzo38> OK
02:47:53 <edwardk> so make an instance of Algebra for say, instance Algebra f (Mu f) where phi = In
02:48:50 <edwardk> or instance Algebra f (TheOtherFree f a) were phi = TheOtherFree
02:49:04 <edwardk> (using TheOtherFree for the constructor of the more traditonal free monad)
02:49:18 <edwardk> instance Algebra f (Free (Algebra f))
02:49:20 <edwardk> also works
02:49:36 <edwardk> all of those are fun to construct
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02:50:26 <edwardk> do make the cofree comonad you need f-coalgebras
02:50:39 <edwardk> class Coalgebra f a where psi :: a -> f a
02:50:59 <edwardk> phi and psi are traditional, but not necessary names
02:51:31 <zzo38> I thought what you called phi there seems what is called alpha in the Wikipedia article? Or am I doing something wrong?
02:51:42 <edwardk> it is
02:52:31 <edwardk> you may find http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.41.125 useful in understanding them
02:53:14 <edwardk> my old catamorphism knol uses them, http://comonad.com/haskell/catamorphisms.html
02:54:17 <zzo38> I do not have access to CiteseerX
02:55:45 <itidus21> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/emeijer/Papers/fpca91.pdf
02:56:34 <itidus21> actually theres a .ps link on the site itself
02:56:58 <itidus21> zzo38: it's apparently a free article
02:59:00 <itidus21> nevermind i'll stay out of it
03:13:21 <zzo38> What is the isomorphism between these free monads?
03:32:56 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any suggestion relating to ITMCK then I may add it in if I think it is a good idea.
03:34:06 <zzo38> There are some features I wanted to add on, I may do so in later version but not in first version.
03:36:06 <itidus21> zzo38: do you like music?
03:36:21 <zzo38> itidus21: I like many kind of music not all
03:36:39 <itidus21> i don't know why but I have never had much interest in audio
03:37:12 <itidus21> it's like how children (probably) don't have any interest in politics
03:37:32 <itidus21> maybe it is cognitive dissonance
03:38:19 <itidus21> i can't whistle, i can't play any instruments, i've never created a song
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03:39:44 <zzo38> I can play piano
03:47:23 <zzo38> I have even made up music with Bohlen-Pierce too.
03:49:35 <coppro> i am a badperson
03:49:41 <coppro> also wait
03:49:46 <coppro> who invitied edwardk in here?
03:49:49 <coppro> this channel is ruined
03:50:04 <zzo38> coppro: edwardk sometimes come in here I do not think that makes the channel ruined
03:50:17 <coppro> zzo38: it was sarcasm :)
03:52:55 <olsner> coppro: if you are a badperson, maybe it was you who ruined the channel?
03:53:34 <coppro> olsner: possible
03:54:23 <itidus21> im confident that i destroy every social system i am a part of
03:55:42 -!- coppro has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
03:55:50 <zzo38> If you have any complaint against ITMCK you can file the complaint in here: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/itmck
03:57:30 <itidus21> what is ITMCK
03:57:50 <itidus21> This is program to write Impulse Tracker files.
03:58:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it is.
03:59:23 <itidus21> do you think it is cheating to use a non-standard memory mapper for NES/Famicom homebrew?
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04:00:11 <zzo38> itidus21: Almost.
04:00:52 <itidus21> There are many ambitions I have in life. One of them is to make a NES/Famicom rom.
04:01:01 <itidus21> wow... i just had idea
04:02:02 <itidus21> if i cared about brainfuck, i could add to my list of ambitions the ambition of creating a NES rom brainfuck interpreter
04:02:33 <itidus21> oh its been done
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04:02:41 <itidus21> wow
04:03:01 <itidus21> http://pdroms.de/files/nintendoentertainmentsystem/khs-nes-brainfuck
04:03:32 <itidus21> another ambition completed vicariously
04:05:05 <olsner> itidus21: of course it has been done :)
04:05:52 <itidus21> well i bet there isn't a dvd where you can code brainfuck from the remote control yet
04:06:08 <itidus21> then again not sure if a dvd can do that
04:06:12 <olsner> not sure DVD is turing complete at all
04:06:27 <olsner> bluray can, but the tools for it are all proprietary and yucky
04:06:36 <itidus21> yeah....
04:06:59 <zzo38> At least DVD does have more buttons, you can use all the numbers 1 to 99, I think.
04:07:10 <itidus21> i read today about some choose your own adventure dvd on wikipedia.. and of course they filed a patent!
04:07:45 <itidus21> so yes its a stupid idea to do
04:13:22 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lully I admire this man
04:13:31 <coppro> he died due to complications arising from a conducting injury
04:13:38 <coppro> conducting being the musical thing
04:13:58 <coppro> xkcd: died in a conducting accident
04:14:10 <itidus21> to me, esolangs are useful for the same reasons as psychedelics
04:14:32 <pikhq> coppro: How does that even *happen*?
04:15:49 <itidus21> He was beating time by banging a long staff (a precursor to the bton) against the floor, as was the common practice at the time, when he struck his toe, creating an abscess. The wound turned gangrenous, but Lully refused to have his toe amputated and the gangrene spread, resulting in his death on 22 March.
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06:24:18 <zzo38> I made up a list of fake character of Super Smash Brothers, including: Prof.Oak, Imakuni?, Kaiji, Kjugobe, Miyamoto, Urza, TV repair man.
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06:25:29 <itidus21> zzo38: oh i have a mockup to show you
06:25:33 <zzo38> These are seven columns on a sheet of paper. The rows are: (up)XY, (left/right), (down), A, A(up), A(left/right), A(down), B, B(up), B(left/right), B(down), C(up), C(left/right), C(down), Z, LR, D(up), D(left/right), D(down), FINAL.
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06:26:08 <zzo38> (I did not actually write (up) and stuff like that; I wrote the arrows.)
06:28:37 <zzo38> Miyamoto's FINAL is to break the game and it won't work anymore until you push RESET (so the match ends with no winner, and if it is tournament mode, you also have to start the tournament all over again).
06:29:39 <zzo38> Imakuni?'s D(down) changes the music to the Imakuni?'s card music.
06:30:33 <zzo38> And it deals damage if and only if the Imakuni?'s card music is the normal music for that stage.
06:31:23 <zzo38> Kaiji's B(up) allows you to walk up the glass staircase that nobody else ever noticed was there.
06:33:46 <zzo38> What are your opinions for this kind of things?
06:34:16 <itidus21> http://i.imgur.com/Anw0L.png
06:34:38 <itidus21> took a while to find this in my firefox history
06:34:44 <zzo38> Why does it say Carmack twice?
06:34:53 <itidus21> john and adrian :D
06:35:01 <zzo38> OK
06:35:57 <itidus21> the fact that tom hall and john carmack are depicted as female is, partially because thats just how the screenshot was
06:36:23 <itidus21> the enemy they're facing is a doomgaze
06:36:26 <zzo38> I wasn't paying attention to that
06:37:11 <itidus21> but, overall, i like the idea that a game dev team is a party made up of people with different specializations
06:37:31 <Sgeo> tswett, monqy: Homestuck is on hiatuses for a while: http://mspandrew.tumblr.com/post/26260841147/hiatustuck . Note that I may not have announced the most recent update, etc.
06:37:44 <zzo38> Some game is made by just one guy
06:39:03 <itidus21> so, taking a look now at what you said.. oak is the guy from pokemon, miyamoto is a man whose precise work is unknown but mario is attriubted to him
06:39:37 <zzo38> Yes
06:39:46 <itidus21> urza sounds like bear for some reason
06:39:58 <zzo38> Perhaps you are thinking of the Latin "ursa"
06:40:29 <zzo38> (As in "Ursa Major" (the Great Bear) and "Ursa Minor" (the Small Bear))
06:40:36 <itidus21> something like that
06:40:50 <zzo38> Urza is from Magic: the Gathering cards
06:41:09 <coppro> Urza would be too strong
06:41:42 <coppro> zzo38: Have you read the artifact cycle?
06:42:08 <zzo38> coppro: What is that?
06:42:21 <coppro> zzo38: a book series
06:42:28 <coppro> featuring urza
06:42:34 <zzo38> I have not read any of those books.
06:42:39 <coppro> ah
06:42:46 <coppro> those ones are actually quite good
06:44:15 <coppro> I particularly enjoyed The Thran
06:44:23 <coppro> and Planeswalker
06:44:26 <itidus21> zzo38: it sounds not too remote from the sort of thing i would enjoy making. but ive only played smash bros once.. my brother and i looked on helplessly as the cpu kicked our ass
06:44:27 <zzo38> Well, I have not read them. My interest in Magic: the Gathering is how the rules interact with each other (I think this is called "Melvin")
06:45:15 <zzo38> itidus21: I have play the game against my brother and the computer players and I sometimes win but usually he wins.
06:45:59 <itidus21> we don't play games together much.. not since SNES really
06:46:14 <itidus21> but i had a few fun sessions playing a game called bleach: shattered blade
06:47:23 <itidus21> it was really intensive cos you have to shake the wiimote to charge up some special move
06:48:07 <zzo38> Well, I played with the GameCube controllers so did not have to do such things like that
06:48:22 <itidus21> in this case it was part of the fun though
06:48:46 <zzo38> Yes, of course, if that is a part of the game, then yes it is.
06:49:01 <itidus21> to play this game, it was a matter of physical stamina
06:50:36 <zzo38> Why does MegaZeux converts .GDM to .S3M but OpenMPT converts .GDM to .MOD instead? Do either of these works better in either case?
06:52:35 <zzo38> itidus21: I think originally they wanted Miyamoto's final attack to crack the disc so you have to purchase a new one, but I changed it.
06:55:20 <itidus21> that sounds right
06:55:34 <zzo38> (At least this is what my brother told me)
06:56:17 <itidus21> ahh you both designed this?
06:56:24 <zzo38> Yes.
07:00:55 <itidus21> Game publishers dont like the second-hand game market because it eats into revenues. Capcom is planning to counter that by releasing a game for the Nintendo 3DS that can only support one save file - for life.
07:01:04 <itidus21> The game is Resident Evil: Mercenaries 3D and according to the games instruction manual, the saved data on this software cannot be reset.
07:01:47 <itidus21> close enough
07:02:33 <zzo38> It is stupid. Well, I have a program to backup and restore save data on DS game cards, but I do not know if it will work with the 3DS cards
07:05:36 <itidus21> another news is that DLC is planned for an upcoming super mario game
07:06:34 <itidus21> yet another idiot move was final fantasy xiii-2 apparently has a DLC ending
07:06:39 <shachaf> @seen kmc
07:06:40 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
07:06:50 <kmc> hichaf
07:07:10 <shachaf> kmc: I got my flag shirt!
07:07:16 <kmc> nice!
07:07:16 <shachaf> Maybe I said that before.
07:07:35 <shachaf> Also, I asked about the next CTF on your behalf.
07:07:40 <shachaf> It'll probably be in August.
07:07:44 <kmc> cool
07:07:46 <zzo38> My own designs are opposite to theirs: The game disc has no copy protection and includes all the files on the disc which are needed to make the box art and instruction book and inventory data and so on, so if the store runs out of stock they can make their own copy; the customer can do the same if they lost the box or instructions, or the disc cracked and they want a backup copy, etc
07:07:54 <shachaf> It'll probably be more web-oriented.
07:08:02 <kmc> cool!
07:09:02 <shachaf> I found a bug in std.file.read() in D.
07:09:07 <shachaf> Which isn't very confidence-inspiring.
07:09:13 <fizzie> What's a "flag shirt"?
07:09:13 <kmc> what kind of bug?
07:09:21 <itidus21> can it be used to take control of the computer?
07:09:31 <shachaf> It gets the buffering wrong and gives you a bunch of 0s instead of the end of the file you asked for.
07:09:46 <shachaf> "oopse :'("
07:10:09 <kmc> :3
07:10:19 <shachaf> With normal files it stat()s them first and allocates a reasonably-large buffer.
07:10:29 <shachaf> But with /proc files it can't do that, and you get a bunch of NULs.
07:11:00 <kmc> aha
07:11:15 <kmc> is it actually null, or uninitialized data?
07:11:44 <shachaf> Presumably uninitialized data.
07:11:50 <zzo38> This system may cut into revenues but it also costs us less to implement than the other way, and the store can potentially sell a lot more copies since they can make their own copy if they run out of stock.
07:11:51 <shachaf> I think it's whatever it gets from realloc().
07:12:08 <kmc> shachaf: how did you come to be playing with D's std.file.read()?
07:12:26 <shachaf> Also, something like half of the suid programs on my system segfault when you exec them with argc==0.
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07:12:53 <shachaf> I was thinking of using D for various ptrace things.
07:13:18 <Taneb> Hello
07:14:41 <zzo38> Do you like the "Famicom-MIDI" format?
07:14:55 <fizzie> shachaf: <fizzie> What's a "flag shirt"? [Some day I'll learn to add that "nick:" thing the first time.]
07:15:01 <Taneb> I'm not awfully familiar with the various music formats available
07:15:30 <shachaf> fizzie: It's a shirt with a picture of a flag on it.
07:15:30 <Taneb> I presume Famicom-MIDI is designed for the NES?
07:15:33 <zzo38> Taneb: Famicom-MIDI is not a music format, it is a specification for use of MIDI like General-MIDI is a specification for use of MIDI.
07:15:47 <shachaf> kmc has one, and today I went and got one too.
07:15:49 <Taneb> Oh, okay
07:16:10 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes it is for NES but mostly emulators, and can be used with GameBoy and stuff too.
07:16:13 <fizzie> shachaf: Oh, I thought a shirt made out of a flag or something. (I guess that's sort of close.)
07:16:45 <shachaf> It could be a shirt with a picture of a shirt made out of a flag on it.
07:17:18 <zzo38> (It would probably be difficult to make it work on a real GameBoy without modifying the hardware, although channels 0-3 could be made to work on a real NES; channels 8 and 9 would also require modification of the hardware. Emulators can support it more easily, though.)
07:17:22 <shachaf> kmc: Writing a program that prints out the contents of /proc/foo/maps is weird.
07:17:32 <shachaf> I constantly feel like my program just crashed.
07:18:07 <zzo38> Here is the current draft of Famicom-MIDI document: http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9058
07:18:49 <fizzie> They sent me a T-shirt (the cheapest-looking one I've ever seen) for doing that stripe.com "CTF" get-the-password kind of thing a while ago, something like that was my alternative guess.
07:19:07 <shachaf> fizzie: That's the one I got.
07:19:11 <shachaf> I was at the Stripe office today.
07:19:22 <shachaf> I did the CTF but they never sent me the shirt.
07:20:01 <fizzie> Oh, okay. (I was kind of surprised they bothered to mail one all the way to Finland.)
07:20:10 <zzo38> One potential use is to play back tool assisted speedruns that are created on computer, to the actual NES, by connecting through a MIDI sequencer to the device that translates the signals and connects to the controller port.
07:24:22 <zzo38> Channel 8 could be used to record the audio data directly, which can then be played back in any emulator supporting Famicom-MIDI (even one that is not capable of recording audio in this way).
07:27:02 <zzo38> Can you understand the Famicom-MIDI now?
07:28:33 <Taneb> Hmm
07:28:45 <Taneb> Not really, but honestly? I don't really care
07:28:57 <Taneb> I've been playing Dwarf Fortress, and I've found a perfect site
07:29:28 <Taneb> It's got magnetite, haematite, limestone, bituminous coal, and native silver.
07:29:34 <Taneb> It's also heavily forested
07:29:38 <Taneb> Downsides: alligators
07:32:59 <Taneb> Oh, and it has gold
07:35:41 <itidus21> zzo38: actually the technical side of it is probably the easy part for smart people. but the greater question of what you are trying to achieve overall is an exciting mystery
07:36:59 <zzo38> What do you not understand about trying to achieve overall?
07:37:17 <zzo38> I thought I explained that too.
07:37:31 <Taneb> zzo38, you're almost reminding me of ELIZA
07:38:16 <itidus21> is it a midi player? is it a library to enable some given NES software to include midi music?
07:40:15 <zzo38> itidus21: No! It doesn't have anything more to do with music than MIDI show control has to do with music.
07:41:21 <itidus21> you mentioned something about controller port.. is there some midi device which can conveniently plug into controller port?
07:42:11 <zzo38> You would have to make up such a device, and it would have to support synchro-start
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07:46:41 <Taneb> Morning, PH
07:48:32 <itidus21> is it about using midi to encode video-game related data?
07:54:08 <itidus21> zzo38: i am breaking rule #1 which is never question the motives of an engineer
07:57:15 <zzo38> itidus21: That is kind of the purpose, yes. For example, to record the controller inputs for playback later, either by file or by external MIDI devices. You may also be able to edit them using certain MIDI programs.
07:58:09 <zzo38> And I disagree with rule #1 anyways since to learn something you have to question the motives of an engineer. And then you have to get an answer.
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09:31:00 <oerjan> ex officio, that means it's his job, right?
09:49:22 <shachaf> 02:44 <DexterLB> how do I convert [IO a] to (IO [a])?
09:49:30 <shachaf> That ended more cheerfully than I had feared.
09:49:36 <oerjan> :t sequence
09:49:38 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a. (Monad m) => [m a] -> m [a]
09:50:46 <shachaf> Yep.
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11:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> > 0.99 ^ 100
11:03:44 <lambdabot> 0.3660323412732289
11:04:23 <oerjan> > exp (-1)
11:04:24 <lambdabot> 0.36787944117144233
11:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, I never realised e crops up there.
11:05:49 <oerjan> i think that's how i first saw e derived, way back
11:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> (Probability of an event with probability 1/n not occurring on any of n occasions.)
11:06:11 <oerjan> alternatively, continuously compounded interest
11:06:39 <Phantom_Hoover> One of the STEP II problems this year was deriving that representation.
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11:08:45 <oerjan> lim {n -> infty} (1 + k/n)^n = e^k
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12:03:46 <Vorpal> I was just looking at the ID3 spec to figure out why my phone only seems to notice the embedded cover art for some of the albums... That spec is a mess... Also the image type enumeration includes "$11 A bright coloured fish"... What?
12:04:45 <shachaf> Are you saying bright coloured fish *shouldn't* be allowed in images?
12:04:56 <shachaf> Are you some kind of racistagainstfishperson?
12:05:32 <Vorpal> shachaf, I'm questioning that it is a special type, the other types includes things such as "Cover (front)" "Cover (back)" and file icons
12:05:44 <Vorpal> "A bright coloured fish" doesn't make sense there
12:05:59 <shachaf> Fishracist!
12:06:20 <Vorpal> right
12:07:17 <Vorpal> anyway the spec in general is a mess. It is incredibly unclear on various points, explains things in the wrong order (and doesn't provide any sort of cross references for such situations) and so on
12:07:39 <Vorpal> also it has lots of features that no one uses apparently
12:07:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think I mentioned the fish on #esoteric.
12:07:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, not recently I presume?
12:08:23 <fizzie> Well, some years ago.
12:08:39 <shachaf> GIF has a bunch of features no one uses.
12:08:48 <fizzie> (And it could've been some other channel altogether.)
12:09:01 <Vorpal> also hm, this album which works on the phone doesn't show up has having cover art in the computer program I'm using for tagging (but it works in vlc!)
12:09:23 <Vorpal> yet some albums work in all programs, and some only on the computer
12:09:39 <Vorpal> vlc seems to manage everything though, can't embed cover art from it I think
12:10:19 <fizzie> It is quite a mess, I agree about that.
12:10:45 <Vorpal> also... this album works on the phone when playing a song from it (it displays the cover art) but the cover art doesn't show up in the album listing
12:10:49 <Vorpal> wut
12:11:01 <Vorpal> caching issues?
12:12:55 <Vorpal> I did figure out one thing though, and that is that it can't do cover art in ogg, but that was like the only consistent behaviour about it
12:18:30 <fizzie> The only files that I have cover art on the phone are I think the four really random songs that had for some reason been preloaded onto it.
12:18:38 <Vorpal> heh
12:18:52 <Vorpal> the bastion sound track is the crazy one that works perfectly except in the tagger software
12:19:24 <Vorpal> oh the thing with cover art showing up in some places was a caching issue
12:19:33 <Vorpal> killing the music player program and starting it again worked
12:20:30 <Vorpal> and then I just have Ogg Vorbis left... And cover art for that doesn't work at all on the phone
12:21:38 <Vorpal> and from googling... what the tagger does isn't an official standard, just a common convention, since there is no official way to embed cover art in ogg vorbis...
12:21:40 <Vorpal> oh well
12:24:43 <Vorpal> oh wait the tagger uses a deprecated variant. Maybe that is the issue
12:24:51 <Vorpal> now I need to find a program that does it properly
12:39:29 <Vorpal> lol... vlc doesn't handle the recommended format, but the phone does
12:39:32 <Vorpal> (for ogg)
12:39:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
12:39:36 <Vorpal> what a utter mess
12:59:34 <Vorpal> an*
13:04:22 <Vorpal> oh okay I needed to update vlc
13:13:50 <fizzie> Wonder whether that new Linux Skype 4 is worth upgrading to. The Utnubu on the laptop didn't seem to package it yet.
13:24:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't skype rather bad from what I heard?
13:24:33 <Vorpal> and from what I heard it is getting worse over time
13:29:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.)
13:31:19 <olsner> from what I recall, skype on linux is bad in all ways
13:33:21 <olsner> but that was years ago
13:37:12 <fizzie> They haven't really made any significant improvement in the 2.x series.
13:37:40 <fizzie> The official blog post about Skype 4 for Linux says it's good, but they would in any case, wouldn't they?
13:39:09 <olsner> yes, they would
13:40:02 <fizzie> They list "much lower chance Skype for Linux will crash or freeze" as one of the improvements.
13:49:14 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
13:50:41 <mroman> "much lower chance"...
13:50:45 <mroman> sounds legit .
13:51:17 <mroman> Grenades.. now with lower chance for exploding in your hand!
13:51:42 <mroman> Only 9.95!
13:51:44 <fizzie> Not just lower, much lower.
13:51:53 <mroman> Warning: May contain traces of nuts.
13:52:44 <fizzie> Like, it could be an order of magnitude lower. Now only every 100th grenade blows up in your hand, compared to every 10th.
13:53:47 <mroman> That would be so releiving .
13:54:04 <mroman> relieve
13:54:50 <mroman> Seems to me english folks didn't have a consensus on using ei or ie ;)
13:55:34 <olsner> i before e except after c (except the rule is useless)
13:56:31 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLXvXFLKrSw for Stephen Fry's failed attempts at explaining the problem to Lee Mack
14:03:49 <Lumpio-> I dunno but I've never had trouble remembering whether it's ie or ei
14:03:54 <Lumpio-> Or knowing
14:04:41 <olsner> like all other parts of spelling in english, you just need to know how it's spelled
14:05:10 <fizzie> On the Origin of Speceis, because it's after c.
14:05:57 <olsner> but apparently those with english as a native language often get taught various rules for how this is done, but all the rules are broken
14:15:23 <mroman> If teaching rules to native speakers works.
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14:55:13 <Taneb> Hello
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14:57:59 <mroman> lleHo
14:59:11 <mroman> > randomRIO >>= return.(!!).(permutations "Hello")
14:59:13 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.IO a -> [a1]'
14:59:13 <lambdabot> against infer...
15:00:21 <mroman> > randomRIO (1,10) >>= (\c -> return $ (permutations "Hello") !! c)
15:00:22 <lambdabot> <IO [Char]>
15:00:40 <mroman> > print 5
15:00:42 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
15:00:58 <mroman> Too bad :(
15:11:47 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I'm not sure what kind of "bad" that means. I mean, ethical and philosophical vs. technical issues. The old Linux client (version numbers 2.x) has been usable but not so good; I don't know about this new version 4. (The Windows and OS X versions are in 5.x or something, but I don't think they share much code.) <-- technical issues with skype in general, not just on linux
15:11:54 <Vorpal> things like video calls breaking up and such
15:11:57 <Vorpal> from what I heard
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15:17:01 <fizzie> Well, EWORKSFORUS.
15:17:30 <fizzie> Though the Skype use we have is mostly audio and text.
15:18:17 <Vorpal> ah
15:19:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, shoudln't teamspeak or something like that work just as well then?
15:19:22 <fizzie> Again, other people.
15:19:24 <fizzie> @dice 1d120
15:19:24 <lambdabot> 1d120 => 50
15:19:28 <fizzie> > (permutations "Hello") !! 49
15:19:30 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:19:46 <fizzie> (Combining that to single step left as an exercise to the reader.)
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15:20:25 <Vorpal> right
15:20:58 <Vorpal> :t (!!)
15:21:00 <lambdabot> forall a. [a] -> Int -> a
15:21:09 <Taneb> I'll try this again
15:21:47 <fizzie> > ("Hello" !!) <$> [0..4]
15:21:48 <lambdabot> "Hello"
15:23:23 <fizzie> '@dice' is funny, it can do NdF+K but not NdF-K.
15:34:26 <mroman> > permutations "Hello" !! $ 49
15:34:27 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `$'
15:35:18 <fizzie> > (!!49) . permutations $ "Hello"
15:35:22 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:35:52 <mroman> I know.
15:36:01 <mroman> But that's not the output pl provides.
15:36:31 <mroman> > let f = (permutations "Hello" !!) in f 49
15:36:32 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:36:42 <mroman> > (permutations "Hello" !!) $ 49
15:36:44 <lambdabot> "Hoell"
15:36:58 <mroman> I forgot the brackets.
15:37:27 <fizzie> @pl \s -> (permutations s) !! 49
15:37:28 <lambdabot> (!! 49) . permutations
15:41:18 <Sgeo> Any chance it could do NdF-K by giving it a positive value that causes it to wrap around?
15:41:47 <Sgeo> > maxBound :: Int
15:41:49 <lambdabot> 9223372036854775807
15:41:56 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2
15:41:57 <lambdabot> 1d2 => 2
15:42:02 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+1
15:42:03 <lambdabot> 1d2+1 => 3
15:42:10 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+9223372036854775807
15:42:10 <lambdabot> 1d2+9223372036854775807 => 9223372036854775809
15:42:19 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+9223372036854775808
15:42:19 <lambdabot> 1d2+9223372036854775808 => 9223372036854775810
15:42:30 <Sgeo> Blah
15:42:36 <fizzie> @dice 1d1
15:42:36 <lambdabot> 1d1 => 1
15:42:42 <Sgeo> @dice 1d2+1.5
15:42:43 <lambdabot> unexpected ".": expecting "+" or end
15:42:57 <FireFly> @dice 1d0
15:42:57 <lambdabot> 1d0 => 0
15:43:20 <Sgeo> @dice 0d1
15:43:21 <lambdabot> 0d1 => 0
15:43:23 <Sgeo> @dice 0d0
15:43:23 <lambdabot> 0d0 => 0
15:43:29 <Sgeo> > 0^0
15:43:30 <lambdabot> 1
15:48:31 <mroman> > maxBound :: Integer
15:48:32 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Enum.Bounded GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
15:48:32 <lambdabot> arising from...
16:01:04 <Sgeo> For what it's worth, Integer as implemented by GHC is in fact bounded
16:13:26 <Deewiant> Sgeo: Howso?
16:13:58 <Sgeo> data Integer
16:13:59 <Sgeo> = S# Int# -- small integers
16:13:59 <Sgeo> | J# Int# ByteArray# -- large integers
16:14:25 <Sgeo> Uses a Int# for.... I think the size of the array? It has something to do with GMP's representation
16:14:55 <Deewiant> That doesn't necessarily mean it's bounded (although it probably is)
16:15:19 <Deewiant> The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such.
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16:52:55 <fizzie> GMP's integers are at least bounded.
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17:02:21 <Taneb> Hello
17:07:47 -!- elliott has joined.
17:08:03 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006 is there any evidence to support this change?
17:08:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:09:10 <elliott> 16:15:19: <Deewiant> The array could contain a "next array" pointer or some such.
17:09:11 <elliott> Pointers are bounded. Why am I reading the log? I'm closing that tab.
17:09:56 <elliott> @tell oerjan Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort it out :
17:09:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:09:59 <elliott> @tell oerjan *:p
17:09:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
17:10:06 <Taneb> elliott, why did you leave for so long!? I've resorted to asking question to which I won't understand the answer to in #haskell !
17:10:17 <Deewiant> elliott: I was wilfully ignoring that kind of boundedness. :-P
17:11:14 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't see why you would when even without a next-array pointer the boundedness is entirely theoretical :p
17:11:42 <Deewiant> With a pointer you can fill the machine memory, with an Int# you can't. :-P
17:11:45 <elliott> Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring?
17:11:55 <elliott> Deewiant: Eh?
17:12:01 <elliott> Deewiant: A ByteArray# could easily fill memory.
17:12:05 <elliott> Without any next-array pointers.
17:12:14 <Taneb> elliott, it's my IRC home
17:12:19 <elliott> In J# Int# ByteArray#, the Int# is the number of thingies. Chunks. Thunks. Clunks. Punks. Monks.
17:12:32 <Deewiant> If it has at most maxBound :: Int# bytes, it can't necessarily.
17:12:50 <Deewiant> But yes, it's all quite uselessly academic.
17:12:51 <elliott> It's maxBound :: Int# words, I believe.
17:13:01 <elliott> (Also that's not a valid value!)
17:19:01 <copumpkin> elliott: limbs
17:19:01 <copumpkin> except it isn't just that
17:19:04 <copumpkin> it also has the sign baked in
17:20:23 <elliott> copumpkin: I forgot about the sign thing.
17:20:26 <elliott> Why did you have to remind me? :(
17:23:02 <copumpkin> :)
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17:35:14 <Vorpal> elliott, hi!
17:35:20 <elliott> Hi.
17:36:04 <Vorpal> elliott, hm ghc no longer goes through C iirc? Can it still be made to do that. I want to try something insane.
17:36:51 <zzo38> What is it that you want to try?
17:37:37 <Vorpal> zzo38, Try getting a haskell program onto an android device using the Android NDK (this will mean I have to either write some C glue code or somehow access JNI from inside haskell!)
17:38:04 <Vorpal> iirc android has a messed up phreads implementation, if ghc depends on a sane pthreads...
17:38:31 <Taneb> Vorpal, GHC does allow you to compile into C, but it needs a special option
17:38:45 <Vorpal> Taneb, and it is still platform specific C right?
17:38:54 <Vorpal> So I first need a ghc cross compiler to ARMv7
17:38:55 <Taneb> Not if you use a different option
17:39:08 <Vorpal> oh? really? Do you happen to know which options these are
17:41:04 <Vorpal> "The C code generator is only supported when GHC is built in unregisterised mode, a mode where GHC produces 'portable' C code as output to facilitate porting GHC itself to a new platform. This mode produces much slower code though so it's unlikely your version of GHC was built this way. If it has then the native code generator probably won't be available. You can check this information by calling ghc --
17:41:04 <Vorpal> info. "
17:41:05 <Vorpal> oh right
17:41:24 <Vorpal> so I probably need to specially compile ghc for the option to exist
17:41:40 <Vorpal> or actually, this system has an old ghc (6.12.1)
17:41:41 <Vorpal> hm
17:42:24 <Vorpal> yeah for modern ghc at least: "Unregisterised compilation cannot be selected at compile-time; you have to build GHC with the appropriate options set. Consult the GHC Building Guide for details."
17:43:42 <fizzie> You can see http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Android to see what others have thought about it.
17:43:54 <Vorpal> oh thanks, didn't think to check there
17:44:34 <fizzie> (Some dude on the SO thread mentions doing something with jhc w.r.t. the Wii homebrew toolchain.)
17:44:49 <Vorpal> heh
17:44:59 <Vorpal> what does jhc target now again?
17:46:14 <fizzie> Apparently it has at least several C-based backends.
17:46:18 <Vorpal> ah
17:46:30 <Vorpal> what with the j I thought it might target jvm
17:46:55 <fizzie> There's support for cross-compiling to iPhone too. Sounds like Android would fit right in.
17:47:30 <Vorpal> with iphone you have a objc environment. Presumably you thus have a non-barebone libc/libpthreads
17:47:38 <Vorpal> which is what android has from my understanding
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17:48:36 <Taneb> ais523, elliott's back
17:48:40 <Vorpal> yeah seems like a quick hack wouldn't be possible for this
17:48:40 <Taneb> And he's got a new trick
17:48:50 <Vorpal> Taneb, what new trick?
17:49:03 <Taneb> Vorpal, reference to a song
17:49:34 <Taneb> "He's back, and he's got a new trick"
17:49:51 <Vorpal> ah I see
17:49:54 <Taneb> "Elliott Hird is ten times as slick as the last time!"
17:49:55 <Vorpal> <elliott> Taneb: Have you noticed this channel is boring? <-- I guess I need to be more active :P
17:50:09 <Taneb> "The last time, you saw him"
17:50:20 <Taneb> "Now you can see we really adore him"
17:53:46 <Taneb> It's a Hexham Classic
17:59:21 <elliott> I'm back?
18:00:13 <Vorpal> elliott, do you have an android based phone or an iphone? I don't remember. I do remember you playing around with android devices, but they might have been tablets
18:00:46 -!- VorpalPhone has joined.
18:01:46 <VorpalPhone> I hate the wifi white spot in this room...
18:01:53 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Client Quit).
18:01:59 <Vorpal> terrible wifi here
18:02:12 <Vorpal> could only connect on second try
18:03:35 <elliott> I have an iPhone. I don't use it.
18:03:40 <Vorpal> ah okay
18:04:07 <Vorpal> elliott, so if you said this channel was boring, why did you come back?
18:04:13 <copumpkin> zzo38: happy canada day! http://gotstylemenswear.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/canadaday.jpeg
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18:06:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, elliott came back
18:10:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not very talkative though
18:14:12 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, what's the weather like in the Hexham of the North that Isn't Helsinki?
18:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Standard Edinburgh weather, i.e. overcast.
18:15:59 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the weather like in the Hexham of the Hexham latitude?
18:18:16 <Taneb> Bright but drizzly
18:20:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, the worst weather.
18:21:59 <Vorpal> I think it was the day before yesterday (or possibly the day before that) when it rained 41 mm / m² here.
18:22:12 <Vorpal> Been a very rainy start to the summer in most of Sweden
18:22:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Um...
18:22:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal.
18:22:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes?
18:22:52 <Vorpal> what is it?
18:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't measure rainfall in mm / m^2.
18:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just mm.
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18:23:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well technically that is mm / m^2
18:23:18 <Vorpal> iirc
18:23:22 <Maharba> Nope.
18:23:28 <elliott> isn't it just... depth
18:23:35 <Vorpal> hm perhaps
18:23:39 <Maharba> How it works is there is a volume of rain over an area, which is a length.
18:23:58 <Taneb> Vorpal, you are wrong. Phantom_Hoover, Maharba, and elliott are right
18:24:15 <Vorpal> right, I found what I mixed it up with: "One millimeter of rainfall is the equivalent of one liter of water per square meter.[84]"
18:24:20 <Vorpal> my fault
18:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> You could do it in litres per square metre, but that's obviously the same as mm unitwise.
18:24:37 <Vorpal> indeed
18:24:40 <elliott> Taneb: thank you for crushing his hopes and dreams :P
18:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, don't worry, there are lots of alternatives to being a meteorologist.
18:25:07 <Vorpal> elliott, I have no issue with admitting being wrong when that was the case :P
18:25:28 <Vorpal> today however the sun is shining here
18:25:38 <Taneb> I've got a friend who thinks sanguine rhymes with whine
18:25:44 <Taneb> As opposed to win
18:26:09 <Vorpal> Taneb, thats... interesting
18:26:19 <Taneb> She won't admit that she's wrong
18:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Could be worse, he could make it rhyme with... irvooine?
18:26:47 <Maharba> It _should_ rhyme with whine, but English is messed-up.
18:26:49 <Vorpal> Taneb, just show her a dictionary with the IPA in it?
18:27:07 <Taneb> Vorpal, odds of that working is slim
18:27:21 <Taneb> Maharba, it's like bother and brother
18:27:27 <Taneb> And countless other pairs
18:27:30 <Phantom_Hoover> That presumes she knows the IPA.
18:27:41 <Maharba> Taneb, precisely.
18:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Or reading/Reading. Or tear/tear.
18:28:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, iirc in most dictionaries I have seen there is a legend at the start showing how to decode IPA (by using examples of the sounds from simple words)
18:29:08 <Maharba> I'd rather those were pronounced, say, /tear/, or /readiN/, to use the X-Sampa encoding.
18:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you could just get a dictionary with plain phonetic spelling.
18:29:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Maharba, you'd rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography?
18:29:56 <Maharba> Either way, actually, as long as they match.
18:30:26 <zzo38> I too would rather change the pronunciation to fit the orthography
18:30:48 <Maharba> How would you change the orthography of <reading>, say?
18:30:59 <zzo38> Actually, I would rather it became an alternate but still accepted pronunciation, than the standard current one.
18:31:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, those exist? Nice
18:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's common in more basic dictionaries, like the ones you get in schools.
18:31:45 <zzo38> I have seen dictionaries using phonetic order
18:31:48 <Maharba> Anything using "plain phonetic spelling" other than the IPA is guaranteed more ambiguous and harder to understand.
18:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Big ones tend to use the IPA, sometimes exclusively.
18:32:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm, I guess back then I mostly worked with Swedish-English/English-Swedish ones. Never really used pure Swedish dictionaries that wasn't the official SAOL.
18:32:13 <zzo38> I agree IPA is better
18:32:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Maharba, um, no.
18:32:25 <Phantom_Hoover> More ambiguous, yes; harder to understand, no.
18:32:39 <Maharba> Not to me, at least.
18:32:42 <ion> IPA beers aren’t to my taste, but many people like them.
18:33:07 <Phantom_Hoover> The point is that it breaks words up into sections which have a fairly unambiguous standard representation.
18:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So you don't need to learn a separate system first.
18:33:33 <Maharba> I did not understand what you said there.
18:34:57 <Taneb> zzo38, phonetic order from the back of the word would be useful
18:35:14 <Maharba> For rhyming, yeah.
18:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Sanguine would be split into "sang" and "win"; both of these are not ambiguous with normal English orthography.
18:35:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Because they use normal English orthography, you don't need to learn anything more.
18:35:51 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'd say it's "sang", "gwin"
18:35:53 <Maharba> But isn't it actually pronounced with /Ngw/ in the middle?
18:36:02 <Maharba> Ninja'd.
18:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Right; that was more a misstep on my part.
18:36:23 <Taneb> But your point's still there :)
18:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb's representation works.
18:36:49 <Maharba> With sang + gwin, though, the syllable break is in the wrong place.
18:37:12 <quintopia> sounds very sanguine
18:37:18 <boily> in French, it's /sA_~gin/.
18:37:32 <quintopia> wow
18:37:34 <Phantom_Hoover> If you can pronounce it with the two different syllable breaks I am very impressed
18:37:35 <quintopia> really?
18:37:55 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's sorta sa-nggwin
18:38:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope.
18:38:21 <quintopia> boily: that is an okay way to pronounce it, but i'll continue to pronounce the u
18:38:23 <Taneb> With a weird, nasal a sound
18:38:26 <Taneb> Kinda french, maybe?
18:38:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It's sang-gwin vs. sangg-win.
18:39:00 <Taneb> Well, I guess I'm weird, which isn't news to anyone
18:39:12 <Maharba> How would you represent French's /A_~/ in the "plain phonetic spelling"?
18:39:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm not sure how to pronounce the second of those.
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18:39:45 <Vorpal> doesn't make sense to me in English even. (And other languages are irrelevant here)
18:39:48 <boily> quintopia: that's an heresy! :p
18:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> You wouldn't, because it's not a common English phoneme?
18:39:57 <oerjan> public announcement: the heap of threads you're considering picking up from the floor _may_ in fact be a spider.
18:39:58 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
18:40:02 <oerjan> end public announcement.
18:40:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right
18:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I have no idea how to pronounce the two differently.
18:40:20 <Maharba> So, Phantom_Hoover, you'd use a different system for each language.
18:40:35 <oerjan> @messages
18:40:35 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 30m 39s ago: Not sure whether this change is accurate or not: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&curid=2038&diff=33007&oldid=33006. You're the Deadfish person, you sort
18:40:35 <lambdabot> it out :
18:40:36 <lambdabot> elliott said 1h 30m 36s ago: *:p
18:40:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I guess maybe shifting the stress? Nah...
18:40:50 <boily> Maharba: as in ɑ̃ ?
18:41:02 <boily> (don't know if encoding went through)
18:41:11 <oerjan> elliott: well it's an accurate assessment of _some_ of the implementations.
18:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes? It's useful for representing English words in English, not French ones.
18:41:21 <Maharba> I got the letter fine, boily.
18:41:30 <boily> with the tilde and all?
18:41:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh was it supposed to be French?
18:41:36 <Maharba> Yes, boily.
18:41:45 <oerjan> admittedly i just today removed that feature from the pascal one
18:41:55 <Maharba> But IPA is generally useful; you don't need multiple systems.
18:41:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Sanguine is a French loanword, but its English pronunciation is significantly different to the French.
18:42:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Maharba, but it is not as accessible.
18:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So if you're making a dictionary for people who don't want to learn the IPA, it's not a good choice.
18:42:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I /guess/ the French pronunciation would be be more nasal?
18:42:37 <Maharba> To a non-native English speaker, the "englishy" system would be less accessible.
18:43:18 <Maharba> Even to some native speakers of English, IPA is easier.
18:43:22 <elliott> non-native speakers do not generally know IPA either
18:43:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK? I said the system had limitations from the start, you don't need to point all of them out.
18:43:31 <Vorpal> Maharba, I'm not a native English speaker, but I never managed to remember IPA (if I needed it I just checked the key of the dictionary), the "englishy" system would work better for me nowdays at least
18:43:47 <elliott> does anyone know what Tektur's latest messages on the community portal talk page mean
18:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Um
18:44:44 <Phantom_Hoover> It makes sense but not in a way that fits into words.
18:44:46 <Maharba> elliott, I think he wants an OS written in an esolang for use as an emulation environment.
18:45:14 <Maharba> Or should that be in an emulation environment?
18:47:03 <Vorpal> it would probably be possible to write an OS in for example brainfuck, easy to compile to native code (you would need an extension for embedding some inline asm for the platform in question of course, unless you designed the ISA to fit what brainfuck could do)
18:47:42 <Maharba> For example, using memory-mapped controls.
18:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I mean if you can embed asm it's trivial to write an OS in BF, just not very interesting.
18:48:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, the challenge would be to use as little asm as possible
18:49:12 <Vorpal> on x86 at least you will at least need some to poke various system registers and such
18:49:36 <Maharba> It would be a bit trickier to compile, but I think memory-mapped controls might remove any inline asm need.
18:49:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, how much access to registers does x86 actually need?
18:50:10 <Vorpal> Depends on if you want to stay in 16-bit mode or not I guess
18:50:40 <Vorpal> but if what you are doing doesn't fit into the MBR you at least need to do a few BIOS calls to load more data from the disk
18:50:53 <Vorpal> Maharba, that would either need a hypervisor or a custom ISA I guess?
18:51:05 <Vorpal> not sure if I understood you correctly though
18:52:17 <Vorpal> or I guess you could let grub load you into protected mode with multiboot
18:52:18 <Maharba> I hadn't thought it out much. Maybe the compiled code would poll those memory locations occasionally.
18:53:03 <Vorpal> Maharba, well standard BF wouldn't allow you to do any waiting, you would have to busy loop
18:53:18 <Vorpal> anyway one thing you would need is writing some interrupt handlers (if you want input)
18:53:43 <Vorpal> of course, it could keep polling
18:53:55 <Maharba> You could have some memory locations be addresses for interrupt handlers.
18:54:14 <Vorpal> also for it to be an OS I think you would need something more than a program just running on bare bones
18:54:19 <Maharba> Then we get into self-modifying code, though.
18:54:23 <Vorpal> like the ability to run different programs
18:54:38 <Maharba> BF's Turing-complete, it can run other programs.
18:54:47 <Vorpal> Maharba, well the code you wrote I mean
18:54:57 <Vorpal> the program that was the OS
18:55:21 <Vorpal> there is of course no clear line between what is just a program running on bare metal and what is an OS
18:55:38 <Maharba> My statement about self-modifying code was not in reply to yours, but a continuation of my previous one.
18:56:01 <Vorpal> right
18:56:24 <Vorpal> anyway, I imagined it being compiled into native machine code.
18:56:35 <Maharba> That would work.
19:03:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, PeterMolydeux actually has more followers on twitter than Peter Molyneux.
19:03:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which one is the fake?
19:03:54 <itidus21> deux
19:04:06 <Vorpal> right
19:04:47 <Taneb> I only follow the latter
19:05:18 <Phantom_Hoover> you follow real peter molyneux
19:07:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I recall trying Fable 2 and getting bored quickly.
19:08:14 <Taneb> It was better than Fable 3
19:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> So's ulcerative colitis, from what I hear.
19:08:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, was there ever a good Fable game?
19:09:01 <Taneb> Except if you played as a female character in 2 you ended up looking like a East German shotputter
19:09:14 <Vorpal> (I haven't played any of them, but I haven't heard anything good about any of them)
19:09:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well I hear they're pretty fun as far as sidequests go, and the combat is decent.
19:09:32 <Taneb> 2's magic was a bit slow, too
19:09:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Hm. So better combat than TES?
19:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> But the main plots are abysmal and it of course falls victim to the Molyneux hypefest.
19:10:06 <itidus21> doing a google image searcch: East German shotputter Heidi Krieger underwent gender reassignment surgery
19:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, probably, but TES combat is pretty bad, although it's definitely improved.
19:10:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, to me it sounds like you mostly described Oblivion: fun side quests, abysmal main plot. :P (Though yeah TES has terrible combat)
19:10:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but the problem with Fable is that it railroads you into the main plot.
19:11:00 <Vorpal> ouch
19:11:10 <Vorpal> so not open world?
19:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not like a TES game where you can fuck off and only miss out on a handful of dungeons.
19:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> You *have* to go through it to access new areas.
19:11:54 <Vorpal> I never finished the main quest of oblivion. I did finish the Shivering Isles main quest. That was pretty decent actually.
19:12:13 <itidus21> she basically said fuck it, and went the whole way after being "force-fed cocktails of steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs"
19:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, WP article says she had gender dysphoria even before the drugs started.
19:12:44 <itidus21> humm
19:12:57 <itidus21> ok!
19:13:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, what about Fable 1? I don't remember hearing /anything/ about that game ever
19:13:50 <Vorpal> since there is a 2 there is presumably a 1?
19:13:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Better than 2, apparently.
19:14:00 <itidus21> lol.
19:14:14 <itidus21> vorpal just doesn't follow peter molyneux very closely
19:14:21 <Vorpal> indeed I don't
19:14:23 <Vorpal> why would I
19:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Still has a bad main plot.
19:14:39 <itidus21> he has such an interesting surname
19:14:55 <Vorpal> hm what happened to that kingdoms of amalur? Didn't the studio that made it go bankrupt recently?
19:15:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
19:15:40 <itidus21> not only that, rhode island had heavily invested in the company
19:15:52 <Vorpal> heh
19:17:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, oh also Fable shows a deep window into Molyneux's view of morality, i.e. that all ethical dilemmas boil down to "murder this child pointlessly or pay a million pounds to buy it a pony".
19:17:58 <Vorpal> I /assume/ that is an exaggeration?
19:18:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Not by much.
19:18:11 <Vorpal> ouch
19:18:35 <Vorpal> did he ever make something good?
19:18:54 <Taneb> Vorpal, no, he killed the child pointlessly
19:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> His work in the 80s and early 90s is praised.
19:19:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah okay
19:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> He's kind of coasted on that since.
19:20:14 <Taneb> If you ignore the morality and the main quest and the east german shotputters and the really slow magic, Fable 2 was a fun, entertaining game
19:20:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, but as Phantom_Hoover pointed out you needed to proceed with the main quest to unlock various areas?
19:20:59 <Taneb> Yes
19:21:10 <Vorpal> so what you just suggested is in fact impossible?
19:21:16 <Taneb> Most of the world is available before the final, stupidly long mission
19:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Also ISTR that the world involves a lot of quest hubs that you move between, but I played for a fairly short time a long time ago.
19:22:06 <Vorpal> If you are doing an open world game you really shouldn't force the player into any direction once they completed your tutorial level (Oblivion and Skyrim did it right. And from what I remember Morrowind didn't really have a tutorial except you had to walk through a couple of doors, no combat that I can remember)
19:23:38 <Vorpal> btw, that is one issue I had with GTA4, you had to do quite a bit of the main quest to unlock all islands.
19:24:01 <itidus21> looking on wikipedia, listening to what has been said about fable games in here.. bullfrog made good games, lionhead studios didn't
19:24:11 <itidus21> it's pretty much that simple
19:26:32 <Taneb> The Movies was a fun machinima tool
19:26:42 <Vorpal> brb
19:29:54 <itidus21> i really liked theme park and syndicate
19:30:07 <itidus21> i thought they were awesome
19:30:24 <itidus21> dungeon keeper i haven't tried
19:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I most often hear it compared with DF, which can only be a good thing.
19:31:57 <itidus21> he decided to make a game where you control the bad guys, and have to fend off heros.. i think its utter genius
19:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Sounding like Molydeux there.
19:33:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from what I understand it, it is more like you are running the bad guys though
19:34:18 <Vorpal> and I only heard good things about it
19:34:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You're both making it sound like the only great thing the game did was have you play as the bad guys.
19:35:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nah, I meant I only heard good things about the game in general
19:35:16 <Vorpal> but the big gimmick of the game was that you were the bad guy.
19:35:17 <itidus21> i don't know anything else about it really
19:35:17 <zzo38> There are other games where your character is bad guy including some text adventure games
19:35:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, luring heros into your dungeon and killing them and that sort of stuff
19:36:00 <itidus21> well the heroes come for you because you're evil :))
19:36:33 <itidus21> the premise makes me laugh, i'm sold on it
19:36:44 <Vorpal> itidus21, also presumably for looting?
19:37:23 <itidus21> one guy working on xbox live indie games(XBLIG) was trying a similar concept based on mario games.
19:37:48 <Taneb> That reminds me, how do I go about making android apps?
19:37:57 <Vorpal> itidus21, based on mario? What would Nintendo think about that?
19:38:10 <itidus21> yeah i recall a few people were critical of that aspect of it
19:38:30 <itidus21> not literally mario but a clone
19:38:38 <Vorpal> but I guess there could be a second mario game where you could play as bowser (Super Mario RPG had Bowser join your party at one point)
19:39:12 <ion> This program is funny even though i don’t understand the language. Apparently the name translates roughly to “don’t try this at home”. http://wgeostreaming.zdf.de/zdf/veryhigh/120629_folge1_nin.asx
19:39:13 <Vorpal> (he had been thrown out of his castle by a greater evil, so you basically decide to join forces, for the moment)
19:42:06 <itidus21> though i have super mario rpg rom.. and i am a final fantasy fan and a super mario fan.. ive still never played that
19:42:27 <Vorpal> itidus21, I had some problems emulating that rom. Not sure why
19:42:38 <Vorpal> never completed the game due to it freezing a lot.
19:42:46 <itidus21> oh crumbs
19:42:49 <Vorpal> it was however a stellar game
19:43:05 <zzo38> If you have some problems emulating that ROM, then it is a good thing you have it because then you could try to fix the emulator.
19:43:09 <Vorpal> itidus21, I don't think I tried bsnes, my computer at the time couldn't run it. So I probably used zsnes
19:43:47 <Vorpal> so using the accurate model of bsnes might be worth a try
19:44:05 <Vorpal> itidus21, the issues only really started towards the middle of the game
19:44:25 <itidus21> ah
19:45:27 <zzo38> My computer games do not always have a plot, for example some are just simple games which do not have a story (such as DOWN, BJACK, STARSTAK, MATCHNUM, Xnazzyball, Disk Catch, etc), while Super ASCII MZX Town has not a very good plot since you just figure out stuff as you go along, find keys and keycards, and then BIG_MONSTER at the end...
19:46:55 <zzo38> There is also MEDIUM_SIZE_MONSTER; once BIG_MONSTER says to him "I am sorry Dave, I cannot let you to do it" and then he responds "Hay! How do you know my real name?"
19:47:51 <Taneb> A wild Zzo (Lv. 38) appeared!
19:48:35 <zzo38> But mostly they consist of rooms that do not have much relation between their purposes; they are just various different areas such as the store, library, puzzle game, castle (with two sides: the kingside and the queenside), the Spanish Inquisition, etc. They are just various places you either go to find keycards, keys, or the passage to next area
19:51:41 <zzo38> And in one level you have to beat Dr.Gray, who has a laser proof vest, and if you beat him then he gives you the purple key (the only thing he owns that isn't gray).
19:55:40 <Taneb> Goodnight
19:55:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:58:44 <zzo38> But, the other game I make (not quite complete, but much shorter than Super ASCII MZX Town) is Potion of Confusing, which has a somewhat better and more coherent plot: Go into the passages to find nice purple keys. Hold second one as you hold a pencil.
20:00:48 <zzo38> The king hates anyone who has solved these puzzles also hates gibbering mouther and so on, so the king has ordered his army to kill them (and you). To stop them, you have to find the contract and write "VOID" on it, but first you have to go to library to learn about it, and it has a magic on it that you cannot adjust it except by writing on it by the second purple key.
20:01:03 <zzo38> Once you wrote "VOID" then the army will attack the king instead.
20:03:47 -!- Maharba has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:04:19 <zzo38> And then you can find the Potion of Confusing.
20:11:37 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:12:39 <ion> Poor lion :-( http://youtu.be/6fbahS7VSFs
20:18:26 <itidus21> in the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps toniiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
20:18:50 <itidus21> -drum solo-
20:24:16 <elliott> hi
20:25:07 <mroman> Ziim looks really awesome.
20:25:18 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:25:25 -!- ion_ has joined.
20:29:39 <elliott> oerjan: An other one, compiling on JDK1.1 (just in case you have some reason to stay away from ORACLE).
20:30:12 <elliott> oerjan: btw i don't know if http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33024 broke anything or not
20:30:19 <elliott> hmm
20:30:23 <elliott> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&diff=next&oldid=33025 he reverted your change, it seems.
20:30:38 <elliott> oh you replied
20:34:52 <oerjan> i don't think that broke anything, the two switched lines should never be triggered on the same iteration
20:35:43 -!- ion_ has changed nick to ion.
20:37:27 <oerjan> the pascal change broke some things, which i fixed again. i'm pretty sure OR is an original pascal keyword, but that doesn't matter so i didn't undo that.
20:37:55 <oerjan> i'm wondering if i should fix his java, given that JTS's java is _also_ broken
20:38:24 <oerjan> although in a different way
20:38:34 <oerjan> elliott: ^
20:51:00 <zzo38> Can you generalize van Laarhoven lenses to other categories?
20:53:18 <elliott> oerjan: heh
20:54:46 <zzo38> I have thought of why you wanted (>>=) to be a method of a monad class, but I think return and join should be, and then require it to be a endofunctor as a superclass. Well, I think (>>=) shouldn't be, but perhaps as well as return and join, (=<<) can be made a method so that they can define in terms of each other including the endofunctor. Since, this way it can work for monads on other categories too.
20:55:44 <zzo38> (=<<) is like a functor from the Kleisli category (represented using the base category instead of the Kleisli category) to the base category.
20:56:12 <zzo38> That is why I think (>>=) should not be a class method.
20:57:06 <zzo38> And also why join should be a class method.
20:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> hey elliott does scone rhyme with con
20:57:35 <elliott> Yes.
20:58:10 <Phantom_Hoover> very good
20:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> (its important you keep track of whos harbouring scone heresy)
21:00:28 * oerjan has less and less idea how to pronounce english lately
21:00:47 <olsner> tip: it's not exactly norwegian
21:00:57 <oerjan> WOW
21:01:13 <olsner> I know! it's mind blowing
21:01:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, just pronounce scone correctly and you're good.
21:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything else is window-dressing.
21:01:46 <zzo38> (Look it up in the dictionary if you don't know.)
21:02:13 <oerjan> AAAAA wiktionary shows _two_ options
21:02:38 <Phantom_Hoover> CHOOSE
21:03:41 <oerjan> ah but it's ok because only one of them is allowed to rhyme
21:04:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how is it pronounced? (Not IPA please, I never managed to remember that)
21:04:52 <Vorpal> "scon"?
21:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Awful people say 'scoan'.
21:05:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, heh I thought it rhymed with "cone"
21:05:37 <Vorpal> oh well, we learn something new every day
21:05:42 <zzo38> If the dictionary shows two options then probably both are acceptable
21:06:16 <Phantom_Hoover> NO that is WRONGHEADED SCOAN THINKING
21:06:24 * oerjan watches an unstoppable Phantom_Hoover hit an unmovable zzo38
21:06:41 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that an SCP reference?
21:06:48 <oerjan> no.
21:06:49 <Vorpal> I seem to remember something like that from there
21:06:51 <Vorpal> oh well
21:07:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's a reference to the unstoppable force meets immovable object idiom.
21:07:12 <Vorpal> oh okay, that is an idiom?
21:07:17 <oerjan> which scp may very well have used...
21:07:45 <oerjan> ancient scholastic conundrum, i thought
21:08:04 <Vorpal> the solution is of course that no such objects exists
21:08:20 <olsner> related, I think, to that one about god constructing an object he can't break
21:08:34 <olsner> also almost a chuck norris fact
21:08:38 <Vorpal> :D
21:09:34 <Vorpal> seriously though, why did Chuck Norris end up with that meme. He isn't the only actor that played baddass roles.
21:09:38 <Vorpal> badass*
21:09:53 <olsner> I guess he was lucky
21:09:54 <Vorpal> Arnold Schwarzenegger for example
21:10:13 <Vorpal> (he got the "I'll be back" one though)
21:10:50 <olsner> there used to be facts about other actors, but when those facts heard about chuck norris they changed
21:10:52 <fizzie> I remember very vague bits and pieces of a (probably sci-fi-ish) novel that had unstoppable force/immovable object stuffs in it. Also, it was weird.
21:11:05 <fizzie> Oh, it wasn't sci-fi, it was just http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_on_Glass
21:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Walking on Glass!
21:11:34 <Phantom_Hoover> That's my favourite Banks novel because it makes absolutely no goddamn sense.
21:11:34 <olsner> Vorpal: maybe you should consult the Internet, it might know stuff like that
21:11:53 <fizzie> "Iain Banks commented that the book 'didn’t do exactly what it set out to do and I think you have failed to an extent if the reader can’t understand what you’re saying. I worry sometimes that people will read Walking on Glass and think in some way I was trying to fool them, which I wasn’t.'"
21:11:59 <Vorpal> olsner, guess what I'm doing atm!
21:11:59 <fizzie> Yes, it really doesn't.
21:12:03 <olsner> "... and the ending has a flavour of incest."
21:12:13 <Vorpal> olsner, yes IRC is part of the internet
21:12:24 <Vorpal> (you maybe meant "the world wide web"?)
21:12:34 <fizzie> olsner: I can't say I honestly remember that part. I just remember the weird games, and that the riddle was being used.
21:12:37 <olsner> Vorpal: no, gopher
21:12:43 <Vorpal> oh okay.
21:12:45 <Vorpal> fair enough
21:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess it does if you think about it, but he totally failed to actually tie anything together substantially.
21:14:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the unstoppable force stuff is this man in this woman locked in this weird prison thing for some reason and they have to play games and when they finish a given game they get to offer an answer to the question and if they get it right they get let out.
21:14:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm.
21:14:12 <Phantom_Hoover> *man and this woman
21:15:20 <zzo38> Well, IRC, gopher, WWW, are all part of internet. We ask question in IRC but can also look up some things in Wikipedia.
21:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> (The other two thirds of a book consist of a man hankering after some woman who is secretly shagging her brother who is also his gay friend, and a paranoid construction worker.)
21:15:44 <fizzie> The Microwave Gun parts remind me of some other paranoid nutcase story.
21:15:56 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, this sounds kind of awesome
21:16:03 <Vorpal> due to being so crazy
21:16:26 <itidus21> being a paranoid nutcase isn't as much fun as it sounds
21:16:36 <itidus21> mostly
21:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, the problem is that the book draws you in with the promise that all these narratives will be taken together and brought to a close, and then completely fails to do so.
21:17:06 <itidus21> >_>
21:17:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ouch.
21:17:55 <fizzie> Incidentally, "you can't have both in the same universe" was one of their answer candidates.
21:18:03 <fizzie> As was that stupid "The immovable object loses; force always wins!"
21:18:18 * itidus21 slowly starts to remember that good books actually exist.
21:18:21 <Vorpal> that doesn't even make any sense
21:18:35 <Vorpal> itidus21, you should go read the Discworld books maybe?
21:18:35 <zzo38> What about this answer? "The force passes through the immovable object."
21:18:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The extent of their interaction is that the lovestruck guy obliviously triggers a car accident which injures the construction worker and the man in the prison wanders off and finds the construction worker plugged into a computer.
21:18:54 <itidus21> too mainstream
21:18:55 <zzo38> And this one? "The immovable object warps geometry so that the unstoppable force never manages to touch it anyways."
21:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the answer is basically given during one of the worker's chapters as "the unstoppable force stops, the immovable object moves".
21:19:14 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, plugged into a computer? As in some sort of cyborg thing?
21:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the sun's gone out and everyone's in a simulated world. Or something.
21:19:42 <itidus21> Vorpal: what i mean to say is that a given random book can be really cool, even if the author is unheard of :D
21:19:45 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah
21:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wait no, they're experiencing the memories of people in the past without actually influencing them or something.
21:20:08 <itidus21> the longer i go without reading books, the more i forget how good some of them are
21:20:09 <zzo38> How well do you think of the geometry one?
21:20:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, right, but the Discworld books are still good. So stop trying to be hippie
21:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> It's one of the things that's never really elaborated upon.
21:20:29 <fizzie> Also there was that war thing.
21:20:34 <itidus21> i can't like a recommended book :D
21:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Wasn't that a simulation too or something?
21:21:20 <fizzie> It might've been. The latter parts are especially vague to me.
21:21:26 <zzo38> Actually here is another answer I made up: "The unstoppable force never meets the immovable object because of quantum uncertainty; the possibility that it does is discarded and a different collapse is performed instead."
21:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Hipster, Vorpal, you mean hipster.
21:21:31 <itidus21> the last book i read which counts as a book was the dwarf by par lagerkvist
21:21:41 <itidus21> that was smashing
21:21:44 <fizzie> But I remember that "the unstoppable force stops; the immovable object moves" answer that appeared somewhere.
21:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I think it was on a matchbook.
21:22:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err yes
21:22:11 <Vorpal> weird typo
21:22:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh yeah, paranoid construction worker gets sent to a psychiatric hospital in the wake of the car accident and finds the matchbook for some reason.
21:22:29 <zzo38> Another answer: "It is wrong because the movement has to be relative to something."
21:22:32 <Vorpal> I can't imagine a hippie itidus21 XD
21:22:34 <itidus21> i don't know why.. maybe because i was excited that it said nobel prize on the side.. but i later learned that the author gets the prize not the book
21:22:44 <fizzie> Hey, I have to wake up in like three or four hours to catch a plane. That's suboptimal.
21:22:46 <zzo38> (I made up these answers)
21:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well he already has disgusting long hippie hair.
21:22:53 <Vorpal> he does?
21:23:02 <Vorpal> have you seen a photo of him!?
21:23:04 <zzo38> Which answers do you think are better for this unstoppable force question?
21:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, just don't sleep and then sleep on the plane!
21:23:41 <itidus21> Vorpal: i'm weird
21:23:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's like a three-hour flight, that's not much sleep. I should do some actual work after arriving and all.
21:23:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch, where are you going?
21:24:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Belgium; that's why I was wondering about potential .be people.
21:24:11 <Vorpal> ah
21:24:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you doing there? Work I presume from what you said
21:24:30 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, then you get the same sleep either way!
21:24:46 <itidus21> one thing i learned about books is that most so-called classics really aren't very much fun in english
21:25:01 <itidus21> frankenstein was good. very good
21:25:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's a university in Leuven, I'll be visiting their speech people, who we've coauthored papers with previously too.
21:25:05 <zzo38> Are they better in Klingon?
21:25:17 <itidus21> i have a theory they might be better in the native language
21:25:20 <fizzie> (For a month.)
21:25:30 <itidus21> maybe i haven't actually read many
21:25:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, well of course most books are better untranslated (if you can read the language in question)
21:25:35 <itidus21> and i'm purely speculating
21:25:46 <Vorpal> guess why I have the Discworld books in English for example
21:25:56 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, yes.
21:26:06 <Vorpal> (or anything that was published in English originally)
21:26:15 <itidus21> ahhh
21:26:21 <zzo38> But still, if their native language is neither English nor Klingon, are some of them better in Klingon than English?
21:26:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, matters a lot more than usual for Discworld due to all the puns.
21:26:52 <itidus21> ah
21:26:59 <Vorpal> zzo38, .. Why Klingon? And why would I know Klingon?
21:27:07 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that the Jabberwocky is better in Klingon than English even though it was originally written in English.
21:27:56 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway, surely you must have read some literature in a non-English language? What did you take as your second language in school?
21:28:06 <itidus21> no i haven't
21:28:16 <Vorpal> I don't expect you to be able to read a novel in whatever the third language you took was
21:28:18 <itidus21> at most i've learned to say a few words in foreign languages
21:28:36 <olsner> Vorpal: native english-speakers don't learn other languages, silly
21:28:41 <itidus21> i've never read an entire page of text in a foreign language
21:28:57 <Vorpal> olsner, oh right
21:28:58 <itidus21> well i had some troubles in school
21:29:07 <itidus21> i was very eager about languages
21:29:12 <olsner> except those who learn Klingon, I guess
21:29:13 <itidus21> but
21:29:23 <itidus21> humm
21:29:37 <Vorpal> olsner, what about the languages from Tolkins books?
21:29:46 <Vorpal> forgot what the elven languages were called
21:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Sindarin and Quenya.
21:30:02 <itidus21> i don't know what actuality i am speaking about
21:30:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thanks
21:30:18 <Phantom_Hoover> They've got limited official vocabularies, though.
21:30:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now.
21:30:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I always mix the first one up with Simarillon (sp?) which is another Tolkin thing
21:30:47 <itidus21> basically there are conditions and requisites to learning any language
21:30:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and why?
21:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal do you really think I would know what Sindarin is but not the Silmarillion?
21:31:12 <itidus21> you can't just start learning without some kind of motive force
21:31:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, I just said I always mix them up
21:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, a lesson you demonstrate all too well.
21:31:43 <Vorpal> itidus21 has a motive force?
21:31:53 <olsner> what is a motive force?
21:32:07 <itidus21> im trying to say something not sure what
21:32:30 <Vorpal> olsner, it is a force that comes in two variants: the unstoppable and the unmoveable
21:32:36 <Vorpal> olsner, I suspect itidus21 has the latter
21:32:59 <itidus21> like for instance, you can't have your cake and eat it
21:33:05 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> I am so glad elliott isn't listening to the channel right now.
21:33:06 <elliott> What?
21:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that an unstoppable motive force wouls still be unable to get iti to develop personally.
21:33:10 <itidus21> but you can desire, and even plan to have your cake and eat it.
21:33:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I just admitted to knowledge of elf languages.
21:33:47 <Vorpal> hahah
21:33:58 <itidus21> but, if you plan to have your cake and eat it, and if you act upon that plan, unbeknownst to you is that you will invariably fail
21:34:36 <Vorpal> what
21:35:03 <itidus21> but if you just plan to have cake, without the constraint of eating it too, then you might succeed
21:35:22 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Don't worry. I'm a friend of the elves, man.
21:35:40 <olsner> elfiott
21:36:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you
21:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> you've changed
21:36:26 <olsner> `? elliott
21:36:36 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things?
21:36:40 <itidus21> so, for example, it's not enough to just buy a bilingual dictionary and begin study from there.
21:37:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I'm surprised you haven't changed though after playing Skyrim. Some of the coolest ruins in Skyrim are the Dwemer ones. And those are elven (the Dwemer, dwarfs, were actually a kind of elves according to TES lore)
21:37:33 <itidus21> ironically, the most common type of book about foreign languages on any given bookshelf is the bilingual dictionary
21:37:34 <shachaf> elliott is a friend of nobody. Just a h8r.
21:37:37 <shachaf> :-(
21:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> They get a pass because they all disappeared whilst building a giant robot in a volcano so they could take over the universe.
21:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> They put most dwarves to shame.
21:38:22 <Vorpal> well yes
21:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Also when some other elves came grovelling for help after losing to Swedes they blinded and enslaved them which is hardcore dorf.
21:39:17 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, err?
21:39:19 <Vorpal> what?
21:39:26 <Vorpal> oh right, the falmer
21:40:20 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I think the dwemer ruins are the most interesting dungeons in Skyrim. After the 20th ruin with undead it gets kind of boring
21:40:44 <Vorpal> sure a few dungeons have unique gimmicks that make it interesting but... there aren't that many of those
21:41:06 <Phantom_Hoover> They have irritatingly tough enemies though so it kind of balances out.
21:41:13 <Vorpal> well yes
21:41:17 <Vorpal> what did you think of Blackreach btw (if you got there?)
21:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Best location, although they could've tried a little harder to get you to explore than that awful collection quest.
21:42:09 <Vorpal> pretty much what I thought too. "What a wasted potential"
21:42:40 <Vorpal> I have nothing against collecting nirnroot as long as I can do it while on my way elsewhere
21:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> The DLC apparently adds more Falmer stuff so there might be more to do there.
21:43:12 <Vorpal> ooh, when is it coming out for PC?
21:43:24 <Vorpal> iirc there was an xbox timed exclusive deal on those
21:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> A month after the Xbox version.
21:43:53 <Vorpal> well, when is the xbox one coming out? Or is it out already?
21:44:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It's been out for like a week.
21:44:05 <Vorpal> ah okay
21:45:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh also Blackreach was too hard to navigate. An outdoor style map would have been needed for it.
21:46:00 <Vorpal> anyway I need to sleep, early morning tomorrow
21:46:02 <Vorpal> cya
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21:57:57 <zzo38> I like GCC's ?: operator with nothing in between, since it is useful
21:59:01 <zzo38> Is it useful to you?
21:59:53 <Lumpio-> What does it do?
21:59:58 <zzo38> Some people hate the ? : operator in C (regardless of whether or not GNU extensions are used) but I think it is good (regardless of GNU extensions).
22:00:00 <Lumpio-> I'm guessing something like || in JavaScript
22:00:08 <zzo38> Lumpio-: Yes, it does the same as || in JavaScript
22:00:28 <Lumpio-> I like ?: because it's the only functional-style conditional in the language
22:00:38 <Lumpio-> Well, with a proper return value.
22:00:45 <Lumpio-> I guess you could hack some conditionals with && and || but...
22:02:25 <zzo38> They should also add the one that is like && in JavaScript. Sometimes I use multiplication for that purpose but it is not chort-circuiting and it has to be boolean on one side 0 or 1 to work like that
22:10:39 <Lumpio-> For instance when would you use that
22:12:12 <zzo38> Something similar is: send_note(ch,channels[ch].transpose+(channels[ch].octave+(c<scale_base))*octave_tones+note_letter[c-'a'],0,&s); Except here I simplified the formula instead of writing (c<scale_base)*octave_tones
22:14:18 <itidus21> zzo38: i am working on another view
22:16:17 <itidus21> if applied to music, it would have 3 instructions for the flute (i am naive if the flute has extra aspects). #1 cover hole(x) #2 uncover hole(x) #3blow
22:16:51 <itidus21> perhaps #3 blow(duration)
22:17:10 <itidus21> maybe also #4 pause(duration)
22:19:35 <itidus21> this conception is based on esolangs (no offence)
22:20:02 <zzo38> If what is applied to music and have instructions for the flute?
22:20:33 <itidus21> my recent ideas
22:21:59 <itidus21> cover(3) cover(4) blow(2 seconds) pause(1 second) uncover(3) cover(2) cover(6) blow(3 seconds)
22:22:12 <itidus21> that would be the idea applied to flute
22:22:48 <itidus21> as i am not a musician, i don't know how well that applies
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22:29:25 <zzo38> I don't know how to play flute, so I don't know either
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23:04:46 <lament> holy shit guys
23:05:16 <zzo38> What about holy shit guys?
23:05:27 <lament> i just realized i ran a brainfuck golf contest ten years ago
23:05:31 <lament> mind blown
23:06:09 <shachaf> hi lament
23:06:15 <shachaf> Want to help us golf?
23:06:17 <shachaf> @where e_10
23:06:18 <lambdabot> let(p,q)%d=p*d`div`q;w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);(x:y:s)^d|y%d>x%d=s^d|0<1=mod(x%d)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
23:06:25 <shachaf> Er, not that.
23:06:26 <shachaf> @where pi_10
23:06:27 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
23:06:32 <shachaf> @@ @run @where pi_10
23:06:34 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
23:06:44 <lament> shachaf: why would i
23:07:05 <shachaf> How would I know your motivations?
23:07:34 <lament> presumably you have some sort of mental model of me based on past interactions and other data
23:07:58 <shachaf> I know you're unpredictable.
23:08:13 <zzo38> I found the scale of 16-31 harmonics in Wikipedia, I figured out the same kinds of things, except that I called 30 B and 31 B sharp (or C flat).
23:09:22 <zzo38> 16=C 17=C#=Db 18=D 19=D#=Eb 20=E 21=F 22=F# 23=Gb 24=G 25=G# 26=Ab 27=A 28=A# 29=Bb 30=B 31=B#=Cb 32=C
23:21:24 <quintopia> zzo38: B# means C and Cb means B. perhaps call it B.25?
23:21:56 <zzo38> quintopia: In the standard scale, B# means C and Cb means B. But this is a different scale.
23:26:07 <zzo38> In a Bohlen-Pierce scale, D# is the same as E.
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23:55:57 <elliott> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=62450
23:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow.
23:56:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It looks like it must have been autogenerated but I can't give the PHP guys that much creidt.
23:56:58 <Phantom_Hoover> *credit
23:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (i sneezed ok)
23:59:38 <FireFly> "has literally never been used by anyone" -- how would they know that?
2012-07-02
00:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The function actually has a hook that alerts them whenever it's used.
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00:38:08 <elliott> hi ais523
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00:45:42 <quintopia> ttiolle ih
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01:28:22 <elliott> hi ais523
01:38:57 <ais523> hi elliott
01:39:00 <ais523> network issues
01:39:18 <ais523> hmm, this year's junethack was fun; Berry played a game that scored more points than in all previous NetHack games ever added together
01:39:35 <elliott> haha
01:39:39 <elliott> how did they pull that off?
01:39:53 <ais523> they found a 64-bit server :)
01:40:06 <ais523> it actually took both him and me quite a bit of effort to work out how to max it on a 64-bit server
01:40:16 <ais523> there are quite a few plain "int"s that get in the way
01:40:52 <ais523> especially in encumberance
01:41:11 <ais523> he was billions of times over his encumberance limit on the turn he ascended
01:41:17 <elliott> haha
01:41:20 <ais523> but apparently that doesn't affect #offer
01:41:40 <elliott> ais523: there's a new roguelike that's popular in ##crawl you might like
01:41:41 <ais523> (he actually needed two tries to do the last bit; the first time, he dropped the amulet for spellcasting and couldn't pick it up…)
01:41:44 <ais523> what's it called?
01:42:16 <elliott> ais523: Sil; http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/ -- it has neat things like giving EXP just for encountering monsters, identifying items, and reaching new depths, so you can do fun stuff like pacifist diving
01:42:29 <elliott> ais523: it's technically a *band derivative, but rewrites almost all of the mechanics, and thoroughly discourages grinding
01:42:40 <elliott> (there's diminishing exp returns for killing creatures of the same type, for instance)
01:43:06 <elliott> it's supposed to focus on tactical combat and so on... elliptic is very good at it; I haven't had a chance to play it properly yet but mean to sometime
01:43:23 <ais523> hmm, interesting
01:43:33 <ais523> and ofc, angband's engine doesn't necessarily lead to angbandy games
01:45:14 <elliott> a few tips if you do play it: the standard build works fine; pass -mgcu to use the curses interface, although you can also just build a curses-only build if you edit the makefile and choose that configuration; and the interactive tutorial is very good
01:45:34 <elliott> oh, and the %s are walls.
01:46:47 <elliott> ais523: oh yes, and if you're in a menu, ignore wherever it places the cursor
01:46:55 <elliott> it may seem to correspond to where in the menu you are, but it is lies
01:47:14 <elliott> ais523: oh, and you can turn on vikeys control in the menu
01:50:14 <coppro> elliott: whywhywhywhywhy
01:50:19 <coppro> am i giving a talk on agda
01:50:45 <elliott> idk
01:51:27 <coppro> what's a good example of something interesting I can prove with it
01:51:35 <coppro> in like 20 minutes
01:51:39 <coppro> to a group that doesn't have a clue
01:51:54 <elliott> what's the group
01:52:18 <ais523> coppro: one I've seen is proving that the reverse of the reverse of a list equals the list itself
01:52:33 <ais523> (CSy lists, which have a head and a tail, and the standard recursive definition of reverse)
01:52:55 <coppro> elliott: undergraduate mathematics students
01:53:04 <coppro> ais523: looking for something more mathematically interesting
01:53:15 <coppro> I don't need to explain every step
01:53:25 <itidus21> humm
01:53:25 <coppro> but it needs to be such that it doesn't explode minds
01:53:56 <itidus21> think highschool
01:54:15 <coppro> (the exact audience is the canadian undergraduate mathematics conference; I have a 45-minute talk and I plan to spend the first half or so explaining curry-howard and giving the very basics in agda
01:55:41 <itidus21> well whats the most trivial proofs?
01:56:39 <coppro> I want something 'cool'
01:56:48 <coppro> ideally
01:56:51 <itidus21> i assume that an equation such as 1+1=2 or c = sqrt(a^2 + b^2) alone is not sufficient to need proof
01:56:57 <coppro> yeah
01:57:15 <coppro> like, uniqueness of the reals is cool and deep, but it's probably too complex for my talk
01:58:36 <coppro> (since it requires construction of the reals and field isomorphisms)
01:58:44 <coppro> /might/ be able to do construction of the reals if I hurry
01:58:53 <coppro> possibly a proof from group theory
01:59:39 <itidus21> agda has a surprising number of meanings
01:59:58 <coppro> hehe
02:00:01 <coppro> any ideaS?
02:00:03 <coppro> *ideas
02:00:15 <coppro> elliott: also you have ruined my life
02:00:21 <coppro> I'm going to write a haskell package
02:00:25 <elliott> good
02:00:34 <elliott> did you learn haskell because of me ror something
02:02:04 <coppro> elliott: no but you made me know about conduit
02:02:09 <coppro> and now I'm going to write a utility library for it
02:02:22 <elliott> 2 bad conduit sux
02:02:39 <coppro> lol
02:03:14 <coppro> all haskell libraries suck
02:16:44 <edwardk> ?
02:17:26 <edwardk> i think its just that all haskell libraries that deal with anything called an iteratee, pipe or conduit tends to suck ;)
02:18:03 <coppro> haha
02:18:20 <coppro> I like conduit
02:18:27 <coppro> cps is the best :P
02:19:23 <shachaf> edwardk: Extrapolating, by 2013 over 50% of Haskell libraries are going to be called one of those things.
02:19:29 <edwardk> shachaf: hah
02:19:41 <edwardk> shachaf: i'll keep up the good fight against the tide
02:20:07 <shachaf> thedwardk
02:20:44 <elliott> i agree with the author of pipes on conduit but i don't like pipes either
02:20:52 <elliott> if only cmccann hasn't mysteriously vanished I could use his library
02:20:55 <elliott> *hadn't
02:21:57 <shachaf> What happened to cmccann?
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02:23:08 <elliott> he disappeared
02:23:09 <elliott> mysteriously
02:23:16 <elliott> at least i haven't seen him anywhere for months
02:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ooh mystery
02:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> wasn't cmccann female
02:24:37 <itidus21> the plot thickens!
02:26:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: I don't believe so???
02:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> camccann?
02:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure camccann is female
02:27:53 <elliott> well he has referred to himself with male pronouns on IRC so...
02:28:04 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
02:28:09 <shachaf> I don't think he was female.
02:28:15 <shachaf> Maybe he was, though. Who knows.
02:28:26 <elliott> I like how we are using the past tense here.
02:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I distinctly recall there being some Haskeller on SO who you referred to with female pronouns but oh well.
02:28:40 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: well you did say cAmccann.. and shachaf said cmaccann
02:28:49 <itidus21> perhaps different people?
02:28:57 <elliott> The plot thickens.
02:29:01 <itidus21> oops now i started making typos
02:29:21 <shachaf> @google "whoever invented the mysterious force"
02:29:22 <lambdabot> http://qdb.rawrnix.com/?browse&3
02:29:23 <lambdabot> Title: Browse Quotes
02:29:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I note that his website has a single enigmatic message on it.
02:29:37 <coppro> edwardk: as far as I can tell, you produce interesting libraries
02:29:43 <coppro> conduit and co are useful ones :P
02:29:50 <coppro> and never the twain shall meet
02:29:51 <elliott> edwardk's libraries ar eperfectly useful
02:29:56 <itidus21> as for camccann on twitter she just "I just unlocked the 4sqDay 2012 badge on @foursquare! Cupcakes and crowns for all! http://4sq.com/HRIX9p"
02:30:00 <elliott> I use them regularly
02:34:07 <itidus21> camccann has a stack overflow rep of over 35,900
02:36:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Like a bloodhound catching a scent, itidus21 is on the case!
02:36:31 <itidus21> hmm
02:36:41 <itidus21> i don't care it's not my business
02:38:05 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: Your first reaction to a dilemma *isn't* stalking?
02:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course it is, laziness permitting.
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03:44:38 <edwardk> re: cmccann cmccann is definitely male. i've met him and offered him a job before. =P
03:45:29 <zzo38> OK
03:45:54 <edwardk> he's also in michigan, while that christina person is in pennsylvania ;)
03:47:59 <zzo38> Do you know that I have recorded a Dungeons&Dragons game I was playing in (and it is still in progress)?
03:48:30 <zzo38> Do you ever use TeX?
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04:06:17 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_entertainment_language
04:14:40 <elliott> edwardk: pertinent questions from zzo38 I think
04:22:17 <zzo38> Other question includes:
04:22:17 <zzo38> ?
04:47:40 <zzo38> Do you think it should be return and join methods of Monad and then have Functor as superclass and (>>=) is not a method? I have read why you wanted (>>=) a method so I instead proposal (in Ibtlfmm, perhaps) to have (=<<) as a method because that way works better with other categories.
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05:07:09 <edwardk> Personally I prefer the use of (>>=) in code to the use of a separate join and fmap. The latter two are almost always used in conjunction, and are harder to optimize when written separately, while the (>>=) is rarely much more expensive than join
05:07:59 <zzo38> Then you have: type MonadCR (c :: k -> k -> *) (m :: k -> k) :: & = (CategoryR r c, EndofunctorCR c m, MonadLawsCR c m, method return :: r x => c x (m x), method join :: r x => c (m (m x)) (m x), method (=<<) :: (r x, r y) => c x (m y) -> c (m x) (m y)); together with default definitions.
05:09:32 <zzo38> edwardk: I understand, and I also agree that often you do want to use join and fmap together and >>= is convenient shortcut I use that a lot. However I still think join should be a method so that you can define it in that way, and also I explained why there should use =<< as some method rather than >>= what do you think of this? (You would still have >>= but it is not a class method)
05:09:44 <edwardk> You do realize by naming a language after map succ "haskell", you open yourself to jokes about making haskell succ, right? =)
05:10:24 <zzo38> edwardk: Now I do, and I have no problems with that.
05:11:07 <edwardk> the price of defining join with (>>=) is the evaluation of an identity function at each binding site. it has really near zero operational cost
05:11:51 <edwardk> i wouldn't mind defining them interrelatedly, but i don't really mind its absence
05:12:12 <zzo38> I agree; it could even be done and simplified at compile time if wanted somehow; but still you might want to define in terms of join.
05:12:59 <edwardk> aywys about the succ thing it only game up because i'm working on slides for a talk on how to use generalized de bruijn indices to make de bruijn succ less ;)
05:14:10 <zzo38> You should be able to define map/return/join or return/(=<<) and then the others (including (>>=)) defined from that.
05:14:40 <edwardk> yes. i do this in comonad
05:14:54 <zzo38> Yes I know that.
05:15:03 <edwardk> well i don't bother defining the duals of (>>=) and (=<<) interrelatedly
05:15:24 <edwardk> making all 3 interconnected leads to a lot of excessive flipping
05:16:03 <edwardk> afk getting food
05:16:56 <zzo38> In Haskell you cannot always define these things interrelatedly but perhaps Ibtlfmm may allow it by specifying mahematical laws. And do you understand the reason why I wanted to define (=<<) instead of (>>=) for use with other categories? It is like a functor from the Kleisli category (but represented by the base category) to the base category.
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05:54:44 <edwardk> yes, i use the same justification for why extend is the way it is
05:55:28 <zzo38> OK
06:04:01 <elliott> I think #haskell are migrating here one by one.
06:04:38 <elliott> That would probably result in a decrease of the net understanding of Haskell of the channel.
06:04:49 <zzo38> elliott: Well, those that are discussing things other than ordinary programming, anyways.
06:05:34 <zzo38> Some people can go on both channels, at least sometimes. Or even on other channels as well.
06:06:09 <elliott> Other channels exist?
06:07:02 <elliott> edwardk: Did you ever get that revisions stuff working?
06:07:17 <edwardk> yes, modulo replay
06:07:41 <elliott> Neat. What's wrong with replay? (What's replay?)
06:07:50 <edwardk> i plan to ship a new version using the 'lca' package to deal with the online lca
06:07:57 <edwardk> and then i'll upload it to hackage
06:08:01 <edwardk> well
06:08:22 <edwardk> the actual version control operations are to define version controlled variables with a 3 way merge strategy, read/write from them, and fork, and join
06:08:39 <edwardk> but breaking the version control metaphor lets you add record :: Rev s a -> Rev s (a, Rev s a)
06:09:00 <edwardk> that gives you incremental as well as parallel computation and is the key to the ridiculous speedups you can get with this technique
06:09:09 <edwardk> that is the part that i haven't bothered to get working
06:09:46 <elliott> That sounds like it would be useful for all kinds of things that I will never realise it would be useful for when coding them.
06:10:04 <edwardk> i haven't been using the general purpose library for this that i have lately but instead have been using a special case set of combinators for dealing with unification problems
06:10:20 <edwardk> in particular i wanted to use it for type error slicing
06:10:31 <edwardk> but that requires a few awkward extensions to the way the merge strategy works
06:10:37 <edwardk> have you read daan's paper?
06:11:06 <edwardk> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=150180
06:11:11 <edwardk> really sells the performance win
06:11:21 <elliott> I haven't; I'll do so tomorrow.
06:11:29 * elliott has been coding more C++ than Haskell recently :(
06:11:42 <edwardk> well, this ports cleanly to c++ as well ;)
06:11:51 <zzo38> What is your opinions of automatic type classes (meaning the instances are defined automatically by a macro defined at the same time as the class, and you cannot create your own instances)?
06:11:58 <shachaf> "I'll read that paper tomorrow" is one of the worst repeated lies I've told. :-(
06:12:04 <edwardk> shachaf: =)
06:12:12 <elliott> edwardk: I don't attempt anything even vaguely elaborate in C++.
06:12:12 * shachaf has a big pile of papers to read "tomorrow".
06:12:24 <elliott> shachaf: Hey, I specifically mentally noted to check the log for the link!
06:12:27 <shachaf> elliott: What are you doing in C++?
06:12:27 <elliott> That counts for something.
06:12:54 <edwardk> zzo38: my opinion is that i'd rather just use ghc.generics and defaultsignatures and be able to override where its beneficial
06:13:25 <edwardk> elliott: load the file and look at figure 11
06:13:29 <elliott> shachaf: Patching a tattered codebase from 2005 that thinks it's C for the most part.
06:13:31 <edwardk> elliott: that should motivate it ;)
06:13:37 <shachaf> elliott: Which codebase?
06:13:39 <shachaf> Crawl?
06:13:44 <edwardk> 'parallel repeat' performance in particular
06:13:47 <elliott> shachaf: Yes.
06:13:50 <zzo38> edwardk: It doesn't do the things I was intending though; also, this way I propose allows Typeable to be defined in this way, and so on, too.
06:13:52 <shachaf> Crawl. :-(
06:14:24 <elliott> Wait, I think I have skimmed this paper on edwardk's behest before.
06:14:30 <edwardk> elliott: sounds like my personal hell
06:14:38 <elliott> That's a good figure.
06:14:42 <edwardk> elliott: thought i'd sent you there
06:14:53 <edwardk> those numbers are on 8 cores
06:15:01 <zzo38> In Haskell it would be: auto_instance :: ([Type] -> Q [Dec]) -> Q [Dec] and then you can use this as a TH quotation inside of a class definition
06:15:27 <elliott> shachaf: (Also it isn't actually Crawl, it's an abandoned, unbalanced pre-alpha version of Crawl before it got cleaned up.)
06:15:37 <elliott> edwardk: I don't even have that many cores :(
06:15:40 <shachaf> Why are you patching that version?
06:15:51 <shachaf> elliott: Did your computer come back to life?
06:16:23 <elliott> shachaf: monqy and no. (But that one doesn't have eight cores, either.)
06:16:48 <zzo38> (Even if it defines instances for everything, you still need to indicate the constraint if you are using something polymorphic, to use the methods of this automatic class.)
06:17:06 <shachaf> elliott: You gotta, like, finish playing Portal, man. :-(
06:17:43 <zzo38> (For example, you still need the Typeable constraint to be able to use typeOf and so on even though all types would have instances for Typeable.)
06:18:29 <elliott> shachaf: I'll finish playing Portal by... 2015 at the latest.
06:18:30 <elliott> Hold me to that.
06:18:46 <shachaf> elliott: Didn't we say something like a month?
06:18:55 <itidus21> it'll be 2015 sooner than later
06:19:13 <elliott> shachaf: I didn't agree to any such constraints!
06:19:18 <elliott> edwardk: What do you think of McBride's Frank?
06:19:29 <shachaf> elliott: :-(
06:19:42 <edwardk> i think i've largely given up on effect systems ;)
06:20:41 <edwardk> when you empower the language to automatically plumb effects around for you like that then all of a sudden a large number of previously equivalent programs are no longer equivalent. you are giving up information about internal workings, this means a lot of canonical combinators cease to be canonical
06:20:47 <elliott> I quite like them. What don't you like about them? The objection I'm familiar with is the standard "you can distinguish 'equivalent' actions in interpreters", but I don't really see that as a huge problem.
06:20:57 <elliott> Right, so it is the same.
06:21:11 <edwardk> so while map and mapM don't need to be defined separately, you often wind up having to define multiple directional traversals to push the effects around
06:21:21 <elliott> Ah, I see what you mean.
06:21:24 <elliott> Right.
06:21:30 <edwardk> and you close the door to lots of optimizations
06:21:39 <elliott> I don't think it is strictly worse than what you have to do to define control structures in a strict language with explicit thunking?
06:21:46 <edwardk> when i code in a monadic style i'm at least explicit about what effects need to be serialized with regards to one another
06:21:58 <edwardk> and i don't introduce completely artificial sequencing barriers
06:22:23 <edwardk> working in a strict language with explicit thunking is just flipping terrible
06:22:51 <elliott> edwardk: I don't like explicit thunking. But I do quite like being explicit about effectful computation vs. result. So... I'm inconsistent.
06:23:14 <edwardk> well, my main data points are scala and haskell here
06:23:20 <edwardk> haskell is a dream to work with, scala is a nightmare
06:23:30 <edwardk> a part of why scala is a nightmare is because of the strict defaults
06:23:37 <edwardk> which make scala monads a damn joke
06:24:37 <elliott> Well, Scala is a nightmare in general. I was of the "total language and decide what evaluation order is later since it doesn't affect semantics" school before it came in vogue, but then Conor went and ruined it by getting it to the top of /r/haskell. :/
06:24:46 <edwardk> in scala if i program with a monad i'm choosing to either a.) blow the stack on any non-trivial example because flatMap can't be a 'self-tail-call' and hence isn't subject to their limited form of tail call optimization or b.) run VERY slowly, because i've operationally transformed the monad using an explicit trampoline
06:24:49 <elliott> (But then you end up with a notion of a thunk again if you introduce effects.)
06:25:14 <elliott> By "no worse than", I just meant that the number of combinators you have to write is no more than would be required in a strict langauge with explicit thunking.
06:25:15 <shachaf> edwardk: What did you think about monad-embed?
06:25:19 <elliott> Because that's essentially the distinction you're getting.
06:25:19 <edwardk> in a strict language with real tail call optimization, its a harder call, and you can get that in scheme.
06:25:49 <edwardk> shachaf: is that the scala abuse of delimited continuations to fake monads?
06:26:02 <shachaf> No, it's a language.
06:26:04 <shachaf> @where monad-embed
06:26:05 <lambdabot> http://timmaxwell.org/pages/monad-embed/
06:26:21 <edwardk> never saw it before
06:26:47 <edwardk> it looks a lot like andrej bauer's toy
06:26:58 <edwardk> same objections to it as i have to eff/frank
06:27:20 <edwardk> given the choice i'd probably go with mcbride's version since its the most principled of the 3
06:28:00 <edwardk> ddc is fine if the only effects you want to play with are boring crap involving scribbling to regions. if you need to talk about other effects its useless
06:28:12 <elliott> DDC is really complicated.
06:28:13 <edwardk> eff was invented to solve a non-problem
06:28:15 <elliott> The effect system stuff.
06:28:18 <edwardk> yes
06:28:23 <elliott> I don't understand it. :(
06:28:26 <elliott> I like Eff though.
06:29:01 <edwardk> well, andrej wrote it because he claimed you couldn't solve certain things in haskell with monads
06:29:22 <edwardk> and i showed him 4 years ago that he was wrong, whereupon he promptly forgot that fact and went and wrote it anyways ;)
06:29:50 <elliott> haha
06:30:07 <edwardk> after he wrote up something recently i posted a rebuttal of sorts on my blog ;)
06:30:21 <edwardk> http://comonad.com/reader/2011/searching-infinity/
06:30:25 <elliott> I dislike monad transformers strongly enough that the downsides of effect systems seem minor in comparison, honestly.
06:30:31 <elliott> Oh, I think I read that.
06:30:41 <shachaf> elliott: Since when do you dislike monad transformers?
06:30:52 <edwardk> the problem is that you run into the same problems you get with monad coproducts
06:31:07 <edwardk> yes, i can define the coproduct of two monads, its just useless
06:31:28 <edwardk> i can define the coproduct of two effect systems, but its just as useless
06:31:45 <edwardk> did you see the traffic on reddit today about monad coproducts?
06:31:59 <edwardk> i gave a long enumeration of things that can't be done with monad coproducts
06:32:01 <elliott> I think Frank's effect system should suffice for a large variety of uses of monad transformers, really, although of course they can't do everything.
06:32:15 <elliott> edwardk: Yes. But I try to ignore tailcalled.
06:32:16 <edwardk> all of these problems hold when you try to sprinkle arbitrary effects into an effect system
06:32:24 <elliott> Right.
06:33:00 <elliott> I still think the reduced power may be less annoying than monad transformers. But of course I've never actually tried to write a proper program in Frank.
06:33:07 <edwardk> i don't
06:33:10 <edwardk> i can't use them
06:33:13 <edwardk> i mean i've tried
06:33:19 <zzo38> I don't dislike transformers, but I also consider the transformers in a mathematical way
06:33:31 <edwardk> the -only- effects you can compose are reader/writer/state
06:33:55 <edwardk> all uses of non-determinism, local, pass, listen, callCC, etc. break this system
06:34:23 <elliott> RWST IO *is* approximately 90% of Haskell transformer stacks. But yes, it's hardly ideal. :/
06:34:27 <elliott> Can you invent something perfect instead?
06:34:36 <edwardk> and notice half of those operations were in reader/writer ;) so you lost half the effects you had in there
06:34:36 <edwardk> no
06:34:38 <edwardk> it doesn't exist
06:34:44 <zzo38> And I do not mean only effect composition; I mean the monad transformers in general, and other transformers too.
06:34:51 <elliott> Maybe you just didn't look hard enough!
06:35:17 <edwardk> i place the burden of the existence proof on you =P
06:35:38 <elliott> :(
06:35:40 <edwardk> i've done my due diligence here, and besides smarter people than me agree it can't exist
06:35:56 <zzo38> What I mean by that is a homomorphism of those kind of things to a new one made up from that, so in other words if M is a monad and T is a monad transformer then so is (T M) and then a forward transformer homomorphism from M to (T M) while backward transformer homomorphism in other direction.
06:36:13 <edwardk> ghani and luth, ghani and uustalu, kelly's paper on layered finitary monads, etc.
06:36:18 <elliott> edwardk: I'm just going to stick to C++.
06:36:25 <elliott> Like deciding to be homeless because you can't have a mansion.
06:36:29 <edwardk> hahaha
06:36:41 <shachaf> C++ is certainly a home!
06:36:44 <zzo38> I program in many programming languages, including C and Haskell.
06:36:48 <shachaf> It's a maze of twisty little passages, all different.
06:37:11 <elliott> Every time I think "this code could really use some more classes" a little bit of me dies.
06:37:43 <edwardk> well, monad transformers are stronger than the coproduct of the base monad and the State, etc monad they are transforming it with, which is the key insight into why they are better than coproducts
06:38:45 <elliott> Well, I know you can't compose monads perfectly independently.
06:38:47 <zzo38> To make a sum of two monads, does it have to be on a sum of two categories that those two monads are on?
06:38:52 <elliott> But transformers are so arbitrary. :(
06:38:54 <zzo38> And same with products too
06:39:01 <elliott> I'll let shachaf complain about transformers instead, he is better at it.
06:39:13 <edwardk> elliott: transformers each individually arise for very very different reasons
06:39:20 <edwardk> elliott: and each one is fundamental in its own way
06:39:27 <zzo38> How are transformers so arbitrary?
06:40:10 <elliott> zzo38: Good question! shachaf can answer it.
06:40:11 <edwardk> ReaderT works because (->) can distribute out over anything, WriterT because every functor is strong, state works because you can sandwich a monad inside an adjunction
06:40:23 <edwardk> cont works because (-> r) is self adjoint
06:40:41 <zzo38> edwardk: OK
06:40:44 <edwardk> there isn't a consistent way in which these things are the same
06:40:46 <itidus21> http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif
06:40:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you know how transformers so arbitrary?
06:40:55 <edwardk> except for the fact that they transform a simpler monad into a more complex one
06:40:57 <elliott> thank itidus21
06:41:02 <shachaf> zzo38: Ask elliott.
06:41:03 <itidus21> that didn't go well
06:41:04 <elliott> *s
06:41:08 <elliott> zzo38: Ask shachaf.
06:41:13 <zzo38> edwardk: How do you mean? Isn't it a kind of monad laws, transformer laws, homomorphism, etc?
06:41:15 <itidus21> bastards
06:41:17 <shachaf> zzo38: elliott brought it up, not me.
06:41:19 <edwardk> if you start working with coproducts you _immediately_ quotient out the ability to allow them to interact
06:41:35 <elliott> edwardk: Anyway, both you and McBride sound so convincing.
06:41:36 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes I can see that
06:41:41 <edwardk> zzo38: no, they aren't just two monad homomorphisms in from their constituent parts
06:41:51 <elliott> So I'm going to go with McBride, because I'd prefer him to be right.
06:41:54 <elliott> Take that!
06:42:17 <edwardk> like i said, his is the best of a bad bunch ;)
06:42:26 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes there is something more too see what I have written above, is that it? Is it somewhat difference?
06:42:37 <itidus21> http://i.qkme.me/3on7zh.jpg
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06:42:58 <elliott> itidus21: Did you just search "RWST IO meme" or something?
06:43:06 <elliott> I'm upset that image exists. :(
06:43:23 <shachaf> That doesn't even kind-check.
06:43:30 <itidus21> i found the meme by accident!
06:44:12 <zzo38> Yes you are right it doesn't even kind-check.
06:44:16 <edwardk> zzo38: consider a monad coproduct defined by two monad homomorphisms, this isn't sufficient to give you what monad transformers give you, because it has to work symmetrically between the two monads. this means that there is quite literally no way for the coproduct of state and error to let you get the semantics of either of StateT s (Either e) or ErrorT e (State s), since the state effects backtrack or not depending on the layering y
06:44:16 <edwardk> choose
06:44:58 <zzo38> edwardk: I didn't say a transformer is a coproduct though, or vice-versa
06:45:12 <zzo38> But I do believe what you wrote
06:45:18 <elliott> Ah, edwardk is talking to zzo38. I am free. Goodbye!
06:45:24 <edwardk> elliott: =P
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06:46:10 <edwardk> itidus21: you probably also want to cps that so you can use speculation ;)
06:46:48 <zzo38> I have thought and figured out to make a monad on a category which is a sum of two categories from monads on each one, and the same things with products too
06:47:33 <zzo38> But this is dealing with different categories not the same one (although you can have the sum or product of a category with itself)
06:51:19 <zzo38> Therefore I do not understand why you are relating transformers with coproducts.
06:53:39 <edwardk> zzo38: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/vuty0/what_is_the_advantage_of_monad_transformers_over/
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06:59:37 <zzo38> OK
07:25:46 -!- ais523 has quit.
07:29:51 <zzo38> Do you like Famicom-MIDI?
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08:58:22 <ais523> huh, a spammer has apparently sent me $1.6 million via DHL because of my bad experiences with FedEx
08:58:27 <ais523> and is asking for contact details
08:58:53 <shachaf> I like to contact people through their credit card numbers.
08:59:11 <ais523> (have you seen the theory that scammers deliberately make scams full of warning signs for people who know anything about them, to ensure that the only people who respond are idiots, who have a higher conversion rate than people who know about scams?)
08:59:53 <ais523> 1. YOUR FULL NAME 2. YOUR HOME ADDRESS.OR OFFICE ADDRESS 3. YOUR CURRENT HOME TELEPHONE NUMBER .4. YOUR CURRENT OFFICE TELEPHONE .5. A COPY OF YOUR PICTURE, FOR WELL IDENTIFICATION.
08:59:57 <ais523> that's what they wanted
09:00:07 <ais523> oh, Konversation screwed up the spaces again
09:00:08 <shachaf> ais523: Yep. That's a pleasing theory.
09:00:19 <ais523> I'm not sure whether to believe it or not
09:00:25 <shachaf> I like it whether or not it's true.
09:00:36 <ais523> I also like the theory that half the scams you get are from scam /victims/ who've been scammed with "make money fast via internet scamming" schemes
09:00:55 <ais523> and thus are only designed to fool their perpetrators
09:01:41 <shachaf> A pyramid scam.
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10:42:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: coppro, edwardk, itidus21 (ex officio), dbelange, oerjan | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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12:19:20 <oerjan> > 17*17
12:19:22 <lambdabot> 289
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13:13:55 <fizzie> Hello from Belgland. (Is this what this place is called?)
13:14:06 <fizzie> They have all the keys in completely wrong order, at least.
13:25:42 -!- Taneb has joined.
13:25:45 <Taneb> Hello
13:26:27 <boily> good morning!
13:26:51 <Taneb> @time boily
13:26:52 <lambdabot> Local time for boily is Mon Jul 2 09:26:51 2012
13:27:05 <Taneb> GMT - 5?
13:27:12 <Taneb> GMT - 4
13:28:49 <fizzie> @time fizzie
13:28:53 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Mon Jul 2 16:28:50 2012
13:28:56 <fizzie> lambdabot: U worng.
13:34:25 <boily> -4 right now because of EST.
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15:07:45 <Taneb> boily, east coast US?
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15:29:23 <boily> Taneb: east coast canada.
15:29:31 <Taneb> :)
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15:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> !sanetemp 180
15:55:55 <EgoBot> 82.2
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16:05:16 <boily> !insanetemp 1000
16:05:17 <EgoBot> 1832.0
16:11:49 <Phantom_Hoover> sanetemp is Fahrenheit -> Celsius, insanetemp is the other way.
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16:17:57 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhhhh, I thought it was for temporary values of some kind. I was really confused.
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17:18:44 <ion> It’s a brilliant idea to have locale settings affect how your code parses. https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=18556
17:20:01 <Gregor> lol
17:20:04 <Gregor> Oh, PHP
17:23:39 <coppro> oh god
17:24:18 <ion> “class_exists() function uses zend_str_tolower(). zend_str_tolower() uses zend_tolower(). zend_tolower() uses _tolower_l() on Windows and tolower() on other oses. _tolower_l() is not locale aware. tolower() is LC_CTYPE aware.”
17:25:50 <Lumpio-> Why do people still keep using that V:
17:26:12 <Gregor> In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY
17:26:41 <Gregor> And 0b0+10 == 12
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17:27:35 <coppro> Gregor: what.
17:27:44 <itidus21> information overload: 11 items on my Windows(tm) taskbar, 23 tabs in my firefox browser, 4 channels in irc. noone to blame but myself
17:28:09 <Gregor> coppro: PHP logic 8-D
17:28:23 <coppro> Gregor: is this on lolphp?
17:28:36 <Gregor> I know the 0x0 was.
17:28:58 <Gregor> http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/
17:29:21 <itidus21> 74 icons on my desktop
17:29:32 <Vorpal> <Gregor> In PHP, it used to be that 0x0+1 == 2. They fixed that, but now 0b0+1 == 2. YAY <--- how... did those happen?
17:29:38 <Vorpal> what did they interpret 0x0 as?
17:30:01 <Gregor> Vorpal: See http://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/ps6x5/0x0_wat/
17:30:52 <Vorpal> ouch
17:32:28 <Vorpal> why does it skip the leading zeros, it doesn't hurt to interpret those...
17:33:16 <Vorpal> also yeah strtol handles 0x already
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17:39:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, 'optimisation'.
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17:40:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which of course makes no sense
17:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> No you see strtol probably handles those initial zeroes inefficiently.
17:44:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, if you profiled and found that to be the case the right answer to that is writing your own strtol then
17:44:20 <Vorpal> it is not terribly complex to implement strtol
17:44:30 <Vorpal> I did it when I needed a different overflow behaviour
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17:51:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, you do not need to explain to me why it's stupid.
17:59:29 <Sgeo> "list all of your computer skills (software,
17:59:29 <Sgeo> hardware, operating systems, programming and other skills here)"
17:59:45 <Sgeo> ^^ career development center person
17:59:56 <Sgeo> That's..... uh.... what....
18:00:24 <Sgeo> There's no way that that's literal, is there?
18:00:36 <Sgeo> Is anyone really interested in the fact that I know how to use XChat?
18:00:52 <Sgeo> Or Chrome?
18:00:59 <Sgeo> Yay! I know how to use a web browser
18:01:13 <Sgeo> She took the liberty of adding Windows XP as a skill.
18:01:16 <edwardk> sgeo: i hope they have a lot of paper
18:01:49 <edwardk> my rule of thumb is if one of those forms is involved i probably am not interested in the kinds of positions they can supply ;)
18:02:34 <Sgeo> Well, this isn't towards any particular position, just helping me write a resume
18:02:48 <edwardk> i'm sure my innate understanding of the inner workings of the 6502 will be critical to my future success.
18:03:11 <edwardk> coming out of college?
18:03:26 <Sgeo> Well, still in college, want to get an internship while in college
18:03:33 <edwardk> fair nuff
18:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate to ask, but are you still at Farmingdale?
18:04:28 <Sgeo> Yes
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18:15:55 <Gregor> Spam subject: "Gangbang tube full of desire"
18:15:56 <Gregor> D-8
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18:24:07 <Sgeo> http://www.resumagic.com/computer_skills1.html
18:24:08 <Sgeo> What.
18:24:18 <Sgeo> A hardware section?
18:24:45 <Sgeo> I.... have the vague idea that I'm typing on a Toshiba computer right now
18:24:50 <Sgeo> I'm not really a hardware person
18:32:14 <itidus21> 6502 is great for making computer games
18:34:20 <itidus21> oh, wikipedia says bender on futurama has a 6502 brain
18:35:52 * itidus21 scuffles away back to his lab.
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18:53:00 <elliott> @tell oerjan If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it.
18:53:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:53:58 <elliott> nooo
18:54:06 <elliott> maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter
18:54:07 <elliott> r.i.p.
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19:33:17 <Phantom_Hoover> the end of an era
19:37:39 <itidus21> my brain has too many gotos
19:39:02 <olsner> spaghettibrain
19:39:54 * olsner opens itidus21's skull and takes a spoonful of spaghettibrain bolognese
19:40:04 <itidus21> you... might not want to do that
19:40:14 <olsner> you might not want me to do that
19:40:35 <itidus21> you haven't seen my desktop
19:40:47 <olsner> I might not want to do that
19:41:32 <itidus21> i think maybe the way i think is just a reflection of the chaotic nature of the world
19:42:31 <olsner> a reflection of the leftovers I left in there
19:43:07 <olsner> I wonder what happened to the stuff I ate though
19:43:29 <itidus21> basically, i am producing content but i'm not organizing it
19:44:09 <itidus21> and i don't want to burden anyone else with that either
19:44:51 <itidus21> where i am really going wrong is i don't actually take the time to study what i am doing
19:45:08 <olsner> watch a chilean monkey (ape?) speak about getting organized: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zUbyL6yez4
19:47:14 <olsner> his son speaks a bit later
19:47:45 <itidus21> but i also realize that it's entirely natural that observing or studying something leads to other things to observe or study.. and there is no real end to that
19:48:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:49:13 <elliott> hi oerjan
19:49:16 <oerjan> hi elliott
19:49:17 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:49:21 <oerjan> @messages
19:49:22 <lambdabot> elliott said 56m 22s ago: If AlainD keeps doing it, let me know and I'll do something about it.
19:50:15 <oerjan> <elliott> maharba corrected the misspelling of "accumlator" in the python interpreter <-- SACRILEGE
19:50:34 <oerjan> i haven't even dared to fix the java one
19:51:46 <olsner> it was misspelled by design and is now completely broken?
19:52:38 -!- ogrom has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:52:40 <oerjan> ...i assume maharba's fix didn't change the semantics, i haven't looked at it yet.
19:52:59 <itidus21> organizing items into categories is a recursive process of generating new categories until there is no longer a miscellaneous category
19:53:41 <olsner> I think you should stop when the miscellaneous category is small enough, because it will never be eliminated
19:54:17 <itidus21> there is a finite set of items (in scope)
19:54:30 <itidus21> but admittedly new items can arrive any time
19:54:42 <olsner> although finite, the set can be very large
19:56:23 <itidus21> but it's really ugly... no library ever has a miscellaneous section
19:56:45 <itidus21> maybe this is because the authors categorize their books in advance
19:57:37 <itidus21> someone should troll the libraries by writing an uncategorizable book
19:57:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: going to bed).
19:59:20 -!- edwardk has joined.
19:59:21 <zzo38> There is tensor category, and then perhaps you can make tensor diagram from that. But I suppose the lines are not allowed to cross unless it is commutative.
20:00:01 <olsner> was that a response to the idea about an uncategorizable book?
20:00:11 <zzo38> No
20:00:20 <itidus21> i'm not thinking of mathematical categories really, but just layman categories
20:00:23 <zzo38> I did not even read what was written above
20:01:21 <olsner> itidus21: I think they'll just add a new category for uncategorizable books and put your book in that category
20:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> https://github.com/net-alper/php-src/commit/0515360e9a8dcc86facb38cddeebe759e87dca52
20:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god this is the best patch ever
20:03:13 <olsner> yes, it follows the spirit and style of the surrounding code perfectly
20:03:54 <zzo38> Are any of the numbers for categorizing books not yet used? If so, then use those numbers.
20:04:38 <itidus21> zzo38: the system is kind of extensible really :D
20:05:17 <olsner> or they could just put the book in fiction since you made it all up to make it "uncategorizable"
20:06:18 <itidus21> anyway if you saw the kind of text files on my desktop you would understand why these things worry me
20:08:29 <olsner> you have some kind of illness involving text files?
20:11:33 <itidus21> heres an example of a file on my desktop http://pastebin.com/uXe6Jbi1
20:11:53 <itidus21> i wouldn't recommend reading it, but a quick glance will get the point across
20:12:20 <olsner> glossolalia?
20:15:19 <olsner> I think there's another word for written glossolalia, and doing it a non-religious context, though
20:16:28 <itidus21> one problem with that file is it requires context to make any sense
20:17:28 <olsner> hmm, ok, I don't have any context so it makes no sense
20:18:36 <itidus21> what the first part is saying is that there is a 12x12 bitmap using the alphabet {-,0} with rows and columns addressed by a letter followed by a number
20:19:13 <itidus21> and then it goes on to show the 4x4 bitmaps found at various addresses
20:20:02 <olsner> found at various addresses? so you're reverse-engineering something?
20:20:06 <zzo38> Does any ephemeris data include camera angles?
20:20:17 <itidus21> well addressing as in a chessboard
20:21:23 <itidus21> then it tries to do the same thing with another 12x12 bitmap, trying to use this system to represent tetris pieces via addresses
20:23:08 <itidus21> then it goes on to a 4x4 bitmap, with 9 addresses from a1 to c3 and at each address determining the 2x2 sub bitmap
20:23:58 <itidus21> then tries to use these subbitmaps as tiles in a 3x3 grid
20:25:17 <itidus21> then some waffling about using xml to represent operations on bitmap, as well as a random list of urls so that i can close the browser tabs
20:25:35 <olsner> why would you close those tabs?
20:29:01 <itidus21> lack of interest, or trying to focus on something else
20:29:22 <itidus21> also to try to free resources
20:29:40 <zzo38> How can I download an ephemeris with camera angles of camera satellites included?
20:33:11 <itidus21> next is a few random thoughts about video games, followed by an analysis of something called WarioWare D.I.Y. which is a nintendo game about making games which last about 8 seconds
20:34:28 <itidus21> so the last part i suppose is infact a reverse engineering
20:36:02 <olsner> I read a bit in the beginning and a bit in the end, scrolling past the rest of it very quickly
20:36:23 <olsner> so I found some bitmaps, some youtube links, and what looked like it could be some reverse engineering notes
20:36:31 <itidus21> lol lol
20:36:38 <itidus21> so infact they are all unrelated
20:36:57 <olsner> and yet they are in the same text file
20:37:04 <itidus21> yup
20:37:16 <olsner> I guess it's called New new New text file.txt or something like that?
20:37:23 <itidus21> 123.txt
20:37:36 <oerjan> i tried to see if the "scratch" file on my desktop was similar, but it seems to contain only the design for my deadfish in itflabtijtslwi
20:37:44 <olsner> do you have 122 previous text files that became full?
20:38:04 <itidus21> each one is a vain attempt at something substantial..
20:38:40 <itidus21> theres 1234.txt stuff.txt stuff2.txt gaming.txt Document.rtf
20:38:55 <itidus21> another hopeful document.rtf
20:39:09 <itidus21> cool thoughts.rtf
20:39:49 <itidus21> New OpenDocument Text (2).odt, New OpenDocument Text.odt, Games.odt
20:40:13 <itidus21> etc
20:40:16 <olsner> I found /code/scratch/BaconCongdon758.txt
20:40:25 <olsner> it has tips on finding a good dentist, I think
20:41:13 <olsner> and here's a copy of an e-mail with 11469 > characters from excessive quoting of the entire previous thread
20:41:56 <olsner> (out of 837 lines ... but some of those came from line-wrapping the series of initial >s)
20:42:15 <itidus21> i even made a folder called Desk and copied my desktop into it mostly.. but that didn't stop it happening again
20:42:49 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:54:08 -!- elliott has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:54:18 -!- elliott has joined.
20:56:59 * oerjan checks spelling and realizes alaind is probably not alan dipert
20:57:30 <elliott> alain diperrier
20:57:37 <olsner> otoh, if his actual name is alain dipert that might explain why alan dipert is sometimes so hard to find
20:57:49 <oerjan> olsner: ooh
20:58:10 <oerjan> elliott: wait, are you revealing secret wiki database stuff again
20:58:19 <olsner> double up if it's actually alain diperrier
20:58:31 <elliott> oerjan: no.
20:58:37 <oerjan> okay
20:58:42 <elliott> oerjan: i am irresponsible, not negligent.
20:59:05 <elliott> oerjan: however, note that, IIRC, realnames are public in mediawiki.
20:59:05 <oerjan> i... may not be entirely sure of the difference.
20:59:18 <elliott> one sounds worse than the other
20:59:20 <oerjan> oh they are?
20:59:24 <elliott> i believe so
20:59:28 <olsner> which one sounds worse?
20:59:29 <oerjan> elliott: which one?
20:59:32 <elliott> negligent
20:59:41 <oerjan> but that's so negligible
20:59:43 <elliott> at least to me.
20:59:46 <olsner> I think irresponsible sounds worse, it sounds more intentional
21:00:04 <olsner> negligent sounds like forgetful
21:00:51 <elliott> oh, shut up.
21:01:03 <oerjan> elliott: i don't know how to find realnames...
21:01:06 <olsner> elliott is about to become one of those english people who go out in the world and discover that their words mean completely different things out there
21:01:50 <elliott> oerjan: me too
21:02:06 <olsner> neither?
21:03:00 <oerjan> "Real name is optional. If you choose to provide it, this will be used for giving you attribution for your work."
21:03:47 <oerjan> so presumably there's some way to make attributions...
21:09:05 -!- itidus20 has joined.
21:09:34 <oerjan> it's decrementing!
21:10:44 <elliott> what
21:10:51 <oerjan> the itidus
21:11:27 <zzo38> Is there any relation between tensor categories and Penrose tensor diagrams?
21:13:07 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:13:26 * itidus20 ++
21:13:32 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
21:59:07 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
21:59:26 <boily> wikipedia's down!
21:59:45 <oerjan> yeah that's what i'd say if i was boiling too
22:00:49 <boily> I always forget the fact that my family name sounds like boiling in English...
22:01:35 <boily> I'd probably be aaaaaahing too if I were boiled alive.
22:01:51 <oerjan> just change your nick to bwalee and we'll stop being confused
22:02:07 -!- boily has changed nick to bwalee-not-confu.
22:02:34 -!- bwalee-not-confu has changed nick to unconfused-bwale.
22:02:45 -!- unconfused-bwale has changed nick to unconf`d-bwalee.
22:02:48 <unconf`d-bwalee> there.
22:03:00 <oerjan> EXCELLENT
22:04:37 <itidus21> so it's "oi" as in "au revoir"
22:04:38 <elliott> the perfect nick
22:06:47 <oerjan> oh ruvwar
22:12:24 -!- ion has joined.
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22:13:40 -!- SimonRC has joined.
22:15:29 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:28:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wow.
22:28:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently OpenOffice used to (as in 2011-and-possibly-still) delete all backup files when it crashed.
22:30:03 <elliott> nice
22:32:21 <oerjan> how convenient
22:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Also found this gem: "In my experience, quality goes something like:
22:32:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (worst) commercial <<<< open source < (most) commercial << open source (best)"
22:33:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh
22:33:03 <Phantom_Hoover> wait
22:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit
22:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought that last one said commercial (best).
22:33:26 <coppro> No, I agree
22:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> MAYBE I SHOULD READ THINGS FIRST
22:33:35 <coppro> The best OSS stuff beats the commercial stuf
22:33:42 <coppro> but only the best
22:33:46 <coppro> OOo is far from the best
22:33:49 <coppro> (or LO or whatever)
22:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I just thought they were lumping all open-source stuff together whilst fractionating commercial software by quality.
22:34:37 <zzo38> Yes, actually I do think "proprietary < open-source < proprietary < open-source" does describe how good the software is. I have not thought of that before but it does look correct to me.
22:35:34 <zzo38> What document numbering system should I use, such as "I.2.iii" or "1.2.3" or etc?
22:36:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Roman numerals, then Arabic, then lowercase Roman, then Greek, then Hebrew (ask shachaf).
22:37:53 <zzo38> I only need three levels.
22:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Roman, Greek, Hebrew.
22:38:22 <zzo38> And it needs to work with TeX.
22:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> For that authentic old-world feel.
22:38:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:38:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Does TeX not have the capacity to display the Greek alphabet.
22:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I thought that was quite a big deal.
22:39:09 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: not after the euro scandal
22:39:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm?
22:39:45 <zzo38> It can display math Greek alphabet.
22:39:57 <zzo38> But it doesn't have the ordering built-in
22:40:13 <zzo38> With the proper fonts you can display anything but I don't want to have to add fonts
22:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, didn't you say it's one of those sum-numeric-values-of-letters systems except you're not allowed to spell out any of the names of God.
22:40:45 <itidus21> are fonts monochrome?
22:41:12 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes, but even if it isn't, the printer may be monochrome anyways
22:41:22 <itidus21> one chrome to rule them all
22:41:52 <zzo38> I am starting to make the document for ITMCK.
22:43:43 <itidus21> the printer _should_ do subpixel dithering, in a perfect world >:-)
22:58:08 <zzo38> The fonts are stored as METAFONT programs which will output a metric file, and then when you tell it what printer you use can output the font raster for that printer as well.
22:59:18 <zzo38> How does a printer going to do subpixel dithering?
22:59:28 <itidus21> basically i think it would be fun to make a font based on NES tilesets
23:00:25 <itidus21> but then again, i am rambling nonsense
23:00:46 <ion> Printers have subpixels?
23:01:22 <zzo38> I did once write a program to make a METAFONT file from 8x8 monochrome character bitmaps; it could then be included from a METAFONT program that uses that data to apply effects and ship out.
23:11:05 <itidus21> ion: well, i don't know the correct terms to explain what i have in mind
23:12:14 <itidus21> if i have a 4 color image, and if it is to be printed in black and white, it needs to be dithered at some stage
23:12:18 <oerjan> just use nanobots to print
23:12:22 <itidus21> i guess its silly to demand the printer to do that
23:12:39 <itidus21> maybe the font should be dithered!
23:13:20 <itidus21> ya.. now i'm getting somewhere
23:13:21 -!- monqy has joined.
23:13:30 <zzo38> Well, it would be possible to program METAFONT to perform dithering although it cannot be subpixels
23:13:40 <itidus21> dithered fonts
23:13:54 <monqy> @messages?
23:13:54 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
23:14:34 <shachaf> @ask monqy hi monqy, we missed you
23:14:34 <ion> itidus21: Isn’t that kind of dithering typical?
23:14:35 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:14:41 <oerjan> elliott: MONQY DETECTED
23:14:43 <itidus21> can you name a dithered font?
23:15:04 <itidus21> i dunno when it happens. maybe it's part of the vector rendering
23:15:56 <itidus21> well there is ░▒▓
23:16:14 <oerjan> hither and dither
23:16:25 <elliott> monqy: hi
23:16:28 <itidus21> ░▒▓█
23:16:30 <zzo38> Those belong to CP437 (and to Unicode)
23:16:38 <shachaf> monqy Are you going to the conference in San Diego?
23:16:43 <zzo38> They are often used in ZZT and MegaZeux games
23:19:27 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:21:34 <itidus21> zzo38: but suppose you are using graphics mode, and font resolution isn't a scarce resource... 1920 / 256 = 7.5; 1080 / 224 = 4.8; so you can get away with 7.5x4.8 black and white pixels per NES pixel (allowing for stretching)
23:22:29 <zzo38> You could convert the file into the format that METAFONT (or TeX) can read and then write the program to make it to print out.
23:22:36 <itidus21> but my eyes tend to percieve movement with some effects like that. really awkward
23:22:44 <zzo38> I have written a program in TeX to print ASCII PBM pictures on a document.
23:23:58 <zzo38> What is the postal address to send a note if you lost a copy of GNU GPL?
23:29:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
2012-07-03
00:02:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:11:47 <itidus21> this depicts what i have described http://oi46.tinypic.com/2rz989c.jpg (proof i have too much free time)
00:12:59 <quintopia> :\
00:13:36 <itidus21> the intention is that i could make a NES tile font using methods similar to that
00:16:23 <itidus21> could being the keyword, perhaps a better word is won't
00:22:43 -!- zzo38 has joined.
00:34:16 <zzo38> Can a Penrose diagrammatic tensor notation be used with some restrictions with a tensor category? Use different lines for different objects, and different restriction depending on the category such as no crossing lines unless it is a commutative tensor category.
00:43:42 <zzo38> There may be other restrictions too to ensure it is unambiguous.
00:52:03 <zzo38> What is it called when an initial object of a category C is final in a Kleisli category of a monad M on C?
00:53:11 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
00:54:19 <zzo38> In Haskell, the Maybe and [] and Finalize monad have this property.
00:55:02 <shachaf> What's Finalize?
00:55:10 <copumpkin> zzo38: how do you mean initial -> final?
00:55:37 <copumpkin> oh, I sort of see it here
00:55:49 <zzo38> Finalize monad is the monad of the endofunctor that all objects go to the final object. In Haskell it would be: data Finalize x = Finalize;
00:56:00 <copumpkin> most people call it Const
00:56:02 <shachaf> Oh, my favourite monad.
00:56:06 <shachaf> I always called it Null. :-(
00:56:37 <zzo38> There is also the Initialize comonad which is the comonad of the endofunctor that all objects go to the initial object. In Haskell it is: data Initialize x;
00:56:38 <shachaf> sorear once said that Identity would be the initial object and Null would be the terminal object in a category of monads.
00:56:41 <shachaf> Or something like that.
00:57:10 <zzo38> copumpkin: What do you mean, "how do you mean initial -> final"? I just mean initial and final objects in a category.
01:01:30 <zzo38> Are they the same ones which the "right zero law" of the MonadPlus class applies?
01:03:44 <zzo38> I think it means (Kleisli Maybe) category includes zero-morphism which are (Kleisli $ const Nothing)
01:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, Charles Stross AMA.
01:13:41 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: What is that?
01:14:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA
01:20:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Eew, he likes Heinlein. Maybe Heinlein isn't as bad as literally everything about him suggests,
01:20:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:28:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:14:04 <itidus21> i get the impression the web was in use in 1989
02:15:19 <elliott> what
02:16:37 <itidus21> well theres patents which were filed in 1989 which have urls.. oh it's a re-examination maybe
02:17:16 <itidus21> ok reexamination certificates
02:17:24 <itidus21> have urls on tehm... confused me
02:23:00 <itidus21> elliott: what i'm really trying to figure out is, is it legal to structure data as <foo bar="foobar">foobar</foo>, <foo bar="foobar"/>
02:23:59 <itidus21> it seems to me that it should be.
02:24:37 <elliott> i
02:24:39 <elliott> don't understand
02:24:51 <itidus21> lol
02:24:58 <itidus21> hmm
02:26:22 <itidus21> if i wanted to add structure to my post i might say, <nick>itidus21</nick><post colour="default">lol</post>
02:28:26 <itidus21> i would feel wronged if i wasn't allowed to do that legally
02:33:58 <itidus21> my abstract conception of markup tags is probably not a topic anyone tends to discuss in real life
02:40:55 <itidus21> {blah} ::= text | <{identifier}{attribute-list}>{blah}</{identifier}> | <{identifier}{attribute-list}/>
02:41:00 <itidus21> {attribute-list} ::= | {attribute-list} {identifier}="text"
02:41:20 <itidus21> ugly.. i fucked that up
02:41:36 <itidus21> i won't put everyone through the agony of continuing
02:51:02 <elliott> itidus21: what do you mean "legal"
02:51:28 <itidus21> i mean that i can't be sued over it due to someones intellectual property
02:53:06 <elliott> oh, "legal" as in legal
02:53:18 <elliott> well any patent on that would be unenforceable and almost assuredly have plenty of prior art
02:53:21 <itidus21> this is why it's fun to chat with me
02:53:23 <elliott> so why are you worrying about it
02:53:43 <itidus21> basically due to the microsoft xml thing
02:54:51 <itidus21> but i am being absurd
02:54:57 <itidus21> yeah
02:56:12 <itidus21> since after all xml is more than 2 lines of bnf
02:56:22 <coppro> `addquote <elliott> oh, "legal" as in legal
02:56:32 <HackEgo> 848) <elliott> oh, "legal" as in legal
02:57:08 -!- stanley has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
02:57:23 <coppro> `url
02:57:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:59:00 <coppro> 1delquote 844
02:59:03 <coppro> 1delquote 844
02:59:06 <coppro> `delquote 844
02:59:10 <HackEgo> ​*poof* becal pckecibedecimacibedey d pakely pckensensly d dely decimecked pacimakecal dey
02:59:21 <itidus21> :o
03:00:54 -!- stanley has joined.
03:00:57 <shachaf> `run echo 'quote elliott' > bin/quelliott; chmod +x bin/quelliott
03:01:00 <HackEgo> No output.
03:01:01 <shachaf> `quelliott
03:01:04 <HackEgo> 171) <fungot> elliott: i like scsh's mechanism best: it's most transparent and doesn't really serve a very useful feature. \ 174) <fungot> elliott: it's hard to debug havoc on your mirror if you accidentally hit r, then a character could be multiple words long, depending on the task. \ 183) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two! \ 191) <elliott> Vorpal loves the sodomy. <Vorpal>
03:02:20 <elliott> `rm bin/quelliott
03:02:22 <HackEgo> No output.
03:02:22 <elliott> `welcome stanley
03:02:25 <HackEgo> stanley: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:02:29 <elliott> Too much bottage.
03:02:44 <shachaf> Henceforth, bottage is verboten.
03:03:55 <ion> `run quote | tr ' ' '\n' | shuf | tr '\n' ' '
03:03:59 <HackEgo> Received [CTCP] ERRMSG. 224) reply from unknown CTCP: clog: CTCP-ERRMSG
03:04:37 <ion> okay then
03:04:46 <shachaf> ion: Do you know what "verboten" means?
03:04:46 <elliott> hi
03:04:49 <shachaf> @wn verboten
03:04:50 <lambdabot> *** "verboten" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:04:50 <lambdabot> verboten
03:04:50 <lambdabot> adj 1: excluded from use or mention; "forbidden fruit"; "in our
03:04:50 <lambdabot> house dancing and playing cards were out"; "a taboo
03:04:50 <lambdabot> subject" [syn: {forbidden}, {out(p)}, {prohibited},
03:04:52 <lambdabot> {proscribed}, {taboo}, {tabu}, {verboten}]
03:04:54 <shachaf> oops
03:05:57 <ion> I’m a rebel
03:06:33 <itidus21> <LT> ::= '<'; <GT> ::= '>'
03:06:50 <itidus21> <text> ::= <text> |'a'|'b'|'c'|'d'|'e'|'f'|'g'|'h'|'i'|'j'|'k'|'l'|'m'|'n'|'o'|'p'|'q'|'r'|'s'|'t'|'u'|'v'|'w'|'x'|'y'|'z'
03:07:00 <itidus21> <attribute-list> ::= | <text>="<text>" | <attribute-list><attribute-list>
03:07:07 <itidus21> <blah> ::= <text> | <LT><text><attribute-list><GT><blah><LT>/<text><GT> | LT<text><attribute-list>/<GT>
03:07:13 <shachaf> ion: I‘m even more of a rebel.
03:07:15 <shachaf> Did you see that?
03:07:23 <ion> yes
03:07:33 <ion> But you only broke your own rule.
03:08:02 <shachaf> Which rule?
03:08:11 <itidus21> i call it... whatthe
03:08:17 <shachaf> I‘m talking about the apostrophe rule.
03:08:18 <ion> That bottage is verboten.
03:08:41 <ion> Didn’t see that one.
03:08:53 <shachaf> Didn‘t see it?
03:11:55 <ion> I didn„t indeed.
03:12:26 <elliott> What,re you talking about
03:13:59 <coppro> `delquote 637
03:14:01 <coppro> I don't like non-quotes
03:14:01 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:14:43 <ion> Hey, some of my family is non-quotes.
03:17:21 <elliott> coppro: how is that a non-quote
03:17:37 <elliott> it's a bad quote, admittedly
03:18:47 <coppro> elliott: I never said that afiact
03:19:51 <coppro> elliott: also most of our quotes are bad
03:20:04 <coppro> see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13197 if you care though
03:20:23 <elliott> `pastlog <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:20:30 <HackEgo> 2011-10-24.txt:07:47:03: <HackEgo> 691) <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:20:34 <elliott> `pastelogs <coppro> clearly darth needs something gray and big and proving the uncountability of the reals
03:20:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27520
03:21:08 <elliott> coppro: I think you said that to me in /msg.
03:21:45 <coppro> elliott: hmm... possibly
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03:54:19 <zzo38> If a tensor category follow this (whenever the types match) what is it called: f . g = f *** g
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05:30:30 <zzo38> What is "ABC starting with C"?
05:35:23 <monqy> C
05:40:36 <shachaf> (C) monqy
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06:56:04 <asiekierka> hello
06:56:38 <asiekierka> so it's the time of year when i can get another nifty electronic device or devices
06:56:39 <asiekierka> what do I get?
06:57:12 <zzo38> I don't know.
07:08:47 <pikhq> asiekierka: Several terabytes.
07:34:32 <zzo38> I think I managed to make the same Haskell solution to anarchy golf "Cross Product of two Strings" at least the length and statistic matches!
07:34:53 <zzo38> But maybe not; in ten days I can check for sure
07:59:41 * itidus21 . o O ( MOV AX, (ADD (SUB AX, BX), (INC CX)) )
08:03:00 <shachaf> What?
08:04:33 <itidus21> it's how assembly language might look if it had nested expressions
08:06:04 <itidus21> ex officio!
08:07:04 <shachaf> Even your assembly language doesn't make any sense.
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08:10:17 <itidus21> roughly means: ax=(ax-bx)+(++cx);
08:10:28 <itidus21> in my mind
08:12:51 <zzo38> Yes you just need to know order of evaluation do like SUB AX BX INC CX ADD AX CX
08:13:28 <itidus21> im not certain it can work though
08:13:48 <itidus21> asm has lots of strange constraints
08:14:57 <itidus21> im just thinking too loudly
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09:41:23 <Phantom__Hoover> Wow, webpagesthatsuck.com describes a site as "nswf". Twice.
09:41:34 <Phantom__Hoover> Is that... not safe wor fork?
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11:24:47 <Vorpal> hi
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12:39:16 <Vorpal> wtf... I think the images my cheap scanner produces are slightly skewed... I scanned two copies of the same image, but with one rotated 90°, and there is no rotation that matches up the whole image...
12:39:20 <Vorpal> looks like skew
12:39:21 <Vorpal> how weird
12:53:44 <Sgeo> strings is officially my favorite program ever.
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13:44:44 <Deewiant> Phantom__Hoover: "not so work friendly"
13:48:16 <Sgeo> Fuck Yeah rsync
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14:53:26 <Sgeo> I apparently made a Worlds wiki
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15:06:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Ooh where
15:07:01 <Phantom__Hoover> does it record all the surreal horrors
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15:25:43 <Taneb> Hello!
15:34:14 <Sgeo> Phantom__Hoover, it doesn't record much of anything\
15:34:37 <Sgeo> Except for a world that, as far as I can tell, is not part of Worlds
15:34:46 <Sgeo> I think the person who added it was in the wrong wiki
15:35:06 <Sgeo> http://worlds.wikia.com/wiki/Special:AllPages
15:35:41 <Sgeo> Page in question: http://worlds.wikia.com/wiki/Wasteland
16:40:38 <Sgeo> On the one hand, I'm curious about Tcl, on the other, I think some people consider it terrible
16:41:04 <Phantom__Hoover> For any given thing, some people will consider it terrible.
16:43:55 <Sgeo> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/99681/why-wont-tcl-die
16:44:08 <Sgeo> " If you never really liked shell-script (or make, for that matter), you'll probably dislike Tcl"
16:44:19 <Sgeo> On the other hand, I like what I'm reading in some of the other answers
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16:46:15 <ion> Meanwhile in Russia http://youtu.be/elxuGbkvETQ
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16:52:10 <Phantom__Hoover> The question of why that was being filmed is, I feel, and important and unaddressed one.
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16:54:05 <ion> @tell phantom__hoover Plenty of people have dash cams.
16:54:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:05:24 <Sgeo> Installing ActiveTcl
17:06:01 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
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17:23:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit I hate having to babysit yaourt whenever I want to install or upgrade anything from AUR.
17:23:55 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I don't want to edit pkgbuild. Yes, I want to continue building. Yes, I want to proceed with installation.
17:23:55 <Taneb> Hello
17:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover> hello Taneb
17:24:15 <Taneb> My fortress just got a 30-dwarf migrant wave
17:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> join me on an adventure of simultaneously pirating mathematica and morrowind
17:24:41 <Taneb> Can I be weird and pirate Daggerfall and Alpha?
17:24:59 <Phantom_Hoover> *Arena
17:25:19 <Phantom_Hoover> And Bethesda provide both for free download, so why bother pirating?
17:25:26 -!- edwardk has joined.
17:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Also if you pirate them you miss out on Michael Kirkbride lore -_-
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17:38:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Also apparently Arena is hard as balls, to the extent that you have like a 5% chance of getting out of the first dungeon.
17:38:57 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions to improve optimization or other features of "dvi-processing" Haskell program?
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17:40:54 <zzo38> One thing is completely fails to do is to use the w,x,y,z registers in the output. (It will correctly process them in an input, though.)
17:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I love it when websites ask me to give them their country.
17:42:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, /their/ country!?
17:42:44 <Taneb> Not your country?
17:42:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK my country THANK YOU TANEB
17:46:03 <olsner> Not you're country?
17:48:57 <zzo38> Do you know rules for chess boxing? I have read that if a player takes too long to make a move in chess he is given a warning and must make a move in ten seconds or be disqualified. I don't like that; a player can still lose on a chess clock. Perhaps set a 100 second time limit per move which is reset at the beginning of each round, and if you don't move, your opponent can make a move for you.
17:49:17 <zzo38> That is, in addition to the chess clock.
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17:49:33 <zzo38> (If you run out of time on the chess clock you would still lose instantly.)
17:51:46 <zzo38> In addition, I would reduce the breaks to 45 seconds. If you are saved by the bell, but remain knocked out during the break and then when it is time to make a chess move you are still knocked out, your chess clock continues anyways and if you have little time left even though you can make checkmate in one move, you lose anyways even though you are saved by the bell.
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18:09:47 <zzo38> Do you like this document? http://sprunge.us/VcYO
18:12:07 <Sgeo> My impression of Tcl so far is that it's probably a very suitable language for a "malicious code that looks like innocent code" contest
18:12:48 <zzo38> Sgeo: Try!
18:21:48 <Sgeo> Richard Stallman hates Tcl?
18:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> You're surprised?
18:26:14 <edwardk> zzo38: taking up chess boxing?
18:27:27 <zzo38> edwardk: No, but one day I read about it and I thought about the rules.
18:34:21 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, yes, because as far as I know Tcl isn't proprietary
18:34:31 <itidus21> http://www.vanderburg.org/OldPages/Tcl/war/0000.html
18:34:50 <itidus21> Why you should not use Tcl -- Richard Stallman
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18:55:57 <zzo38> Just because it isn't proprietary does not necessarily mean it isn't a good quality.
18:56:08 <zzo38> Just because it isn't proprietary does not necessarily mean it is a good quality.
18:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate hate hate hate hate using Wine.
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18:59:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Nothing *ever* just works; you always need to iron out some bug or unmet dependency or something.
19:01:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Example: I need mfc100u.dll. This is apparently in winetricks' vcrun2010. Running this generates a warning about mfc100u.dll not being found (even though it should've installed it) and then crashes on subsequent runs.
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19:04:40 <Sgeo> "F'rinstance, Tcl's support for lambda expressions is weak to nonexistant; OTOH, command prefixes as higher-order functions work rather well."
19:05:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yeah i feel that way about life in general.
19:05:38 <itidus21> me too
19:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan are you being snarky with me
19:06:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, just depressed. i fear that i'm becoming more and more like itidus21
19:06:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I
19:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm so, so sorry
19:06:35 <itidus21> how rapidly is this happening?
19:07:37 <oerjan> it seems to be accelerating, i expect an asymptote within the next year or so.
19:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It could just be a cubic.
19:08:46 <oerjan> MAYBE
19:08:47 <itidus21> basically, my family is all but broken. there is no point to be happy in the morning in this house
19:10:22 <oerjan> i no longer speak to my dad, i just cannot bear the feel of guilt at the end of every conversation.
19:11:06 <olsner> we're always here for you oerjan
19:11:12 <itidus21> something which would seem trivial, like feeling comfortable to occupy an empty loungeroom... my brother will come along and say like "let's watch this other thing"
19:11:30 <oerjan> olsner: yeah until my computer breaks
19:12:28 <olsner> we'll still be here if your computer breaks, you just can't reach us
19:12:34 <oerjan> OKAY
19:12:37 <oerjan> XD
19:12:46 <itidus21> i shouldn't focus on the negatives... but my brother will start getting angry and stomping around if he can't find aluminum foil in kitchen.. saying to my mum "WHERE DID YOU PUT IT?"
19:12:51 <itidus21> something like that
19:13:23 <itidus21> or wondering where the vegetable stock is "DID YOU THROW IT OUT? _YES_ OR _NO_ "
19:13:58 <oerjan> yeah trying not to focus on the negatives works for about 20 minutes, until the negatives crashland on your focus again.
19:14:00 <itidus21> but whenever my mum thanks him for a meal he is like "hmph"
19:14:12 <oerjan> it _used_ to work for longer.
19:14:41 <olsner> oerjan: aren't you old enough to e.g. get a job where you don't need to interact with your family anmore?
19:14:58 <oerjan> olsner: um i'm not living with my family.
19:14:59 <olsner> that'd solve everything
19:15:03 <itidus21> its not just words though, the broken walls, doors, and window are a testatment to his tempers
19:15:25 <oerjan> i don't have a job either, nor do i feel capable of maintaining one.
19:15:51 <olsner> hmm, ok, I think I misunderstood the nature of your problem
19:16:23 <itidus21> but literally there is no gain for me to focus on negatives.. it primes my mind to think negatively
19:16:32 <oerjan> olsner: i'm not saying i'm exactly like itidus21, the _details_ are probably completely different, i just feel like every day i feel more and more in tune with his general position despite intellectually vehemently disagreeing with it.
19:17:11 <oerjan> but basically i think we share a complete inability to take initiative.
19:17:31 <oerjan> no matter how much we are prodded.
19:17:45 <olsner> well, prodding usually only demotivates
19:18:03 <itidus21> i snapped.. accidently attacked him with a bowl full of hot food.. when he was holding me down i got my mom to call cops... and he declared i wasnt his brother for 10 days
19:18:03 <oerjan> and the world simply cannot _accept_ people who cannot take initiative.
19:18:08 <itidus21> and cut off my internet
19:18:10 <itidus21> lol
19:18:19 <itidus21> its all fun.. :-S
19:19:42 <olsner> oerjan: that sounds a bit pessimistic, not everyone is or can be the initiator all the time, nor is everyone expected to be
19:19:58 <itidus21> now convincing myself he is really not intentionally setting out to do these things
19:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, iti's problem at least is that he can *never* initiate anything.
19:20:59 <itidus21> be wary with what you focus on... it will ultimately overlwhem you
19:21:48 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: well, is that really the case though?
19:23:02 <itidus21> ok ok im not the topic
19:23:13 <itidus21> i guess im part of it though
19:24:08 <itidus21> basically, i think the pain is in trying to avoid feedback loops developing
19:25:18 <itidus21> like if someone does something harmful to you, you want it to be absolute, not a relative increase in harmfulness each time
19:27:11 <itidus21> but being harmful does in practice tend to be a feedback loop that you can't stop. you have to literally run out. like an army withdrawing from a war
19:28:56 <itidus21> i don't want to think about it like this :D
19:29:13 <itidus21> im gonna watch some nyan cat
19:29:58 <Vorpal> elliott left again?
19:29:58 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZZ7oFKsKzY
19:30:07 <Vorpal> oh well
19:30:26 <itidus21> have faith in nyan cat
19:43:50 <itidus21> oerjan: i'm doing ok. you can do ok too. it's not realistic to make comparisons of yourself with me. :D i was being pushed around since i began school. this i could live with
19:44:32 <itidus21> it's only when i started to not trust my own family that i felt lost. but i am learning they deserve more trust than i give them
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20:20:30 <Sgeo> "Upvar interacts with traces in a straightforward but possibly unexpected manner."
20:20:41 <Sgeo> I think that's a good description of Tcl in general.
20:20:49 <Sgeo> "Straightforward but possibly unexpected"
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21:43:36 <Vorpal> huh. zombie shell processes on my android phone. Lots of them. Their parent is called "kiesexe", since "Kies" is Samsung's PC software suite (that adds absolutely nothing useful to me) I guess it is something related to that.
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21:53:42 * oerjan notes that "notify" becomes "naughtify" if you pronounce it with a mad science accent
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22:33:56 <oerjan> i think is shall have to use a "what is this i don't even" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&hl=no&v=iAJBuGwQEHg
22:46:56 <oerjan> http://www.math.psu.edu/rvaughan/568Quotations.pdf :D
22:47:20 * oerjan is pasting links from r/math, btw
22:50:42 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god it's scored to the ecstasy of gold
22:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> why
22:53:22 <Sgeo> I like this song I think
22:53:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course you do, it's Ennio Morricone.
22:53:57 <oerjan> i was about to say that.
22:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (Not completely sure how that theorem qualifies for a PhD, assume there's more to it.)
22:55:11 <Gregor> That shall be how I make my thesis.
22:55:13 <Gregor> Screw writing.
22:55:15 <Gregor> INTERPRETIVE DANCE
22:55:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (If it's that easy to get one I'm set for life.)
22:56:50 <Gregor> It slightly bothers me that the video ends with "Q.E.D.". I'm about 85% sure that interpretive dance is not a widely accepted proof technique.
22:56:58 <Sgeo> So, Facebook wrongly blocked a URL
22:57:01 <oerjan> Gregor: YET
22:57:01 <Sgeo> I can't report the URL as being wrongly blocked because when I try to submit the form, Facebook blocks it due to the URL
22:57:23 <oerjan> smooth
22:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, like I said I'm not even sure whether anything of interest was proved.
22:58:12 <Gregor> Certainly nothing was proved by the video, but we don't even know the thesis statement, let alone the actual theorem :)
22:58:20 * oerjan didn't actually pay attention to the math much :P
22:59:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm guessing she extended the hell out of it for the thesis because... well, anything that can be proven in a few minutes of interpretative dance is not enough to get 'Dr' stuck onto your name.
22:59:51 <Gregor> Yeah, again, nothing was actually proved by the dance, it's a demonstration X_X
23:00:26 <oerjan> oh hm the author comments on the reddit thread http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/vx3wt/cutting_sequences_on_the_double_pentagon/
23:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> One day I will care about mathematical concepts that don't have Wikipedia articles.
23:01:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Today is not that day.
23:03:40 <oerjan> "For those interested, the paper the video is based on can be found here. The introduction to the paper is very accessible, and answers most of the questions people are asking."
23:03:51 <oerjan> here=http://math.brown.edu/~diana/math/VeechPolygons.pdf
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2012-07-04
00:11:47 -!- elliott has joined.
00:51:49 <Vorpal> elliott, HI!
00:52:03 <shachaf> hellioptter
00:58:18 <elliott> Vorpal: what
00:58:18 <elliott> hi
00:58:18 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
00:58:20 <elliott> ugh
00:58:33 <elliott> monqy: what
01:04:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, Livonia is a real place???
01:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I swear Neil Gaiman knows everything.
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01:15:57 <newsham> esolang wiki has a page for a langauge called "lambda" but broken link :(
01:16:32 <newsham> wanted to mention i also wrote a small language I called "lambda" (i know.. join the club).. http://www.thenewsh.com/~newsham/lambda/
01:17:13 <shachaf> hewsham
01:17:17 <newsham> hi
01:18:01 <shachaf> I think when there are multiple languages people make pages with the name of the author in parentheses.
01:18:13 <shachaf> E.g. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(Keymaker) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue_(oklopol)
01:18:37 <shachaf> (This suggests that you should make a second, unrelated language called "lambda", to cause some real confusion.)
01:18:54 <newsham> or change my name to calculus
01:20:29 <shachaf> If you do that, people might think you're not discreet.
01:20:57 <shachaf> Anyway, ask elliott about the Rules of the Wiki.
01:21:03 <shachaf> elliott: "rules plz"
01:24:27 <shachaf> The existing lambda page is very uninformative.
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01:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> newsham!
01:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> holy shit it's quarter to four
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01:50:59 <Gregor> elliott: Where's news-ham?
01:52:16 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
01:52:17 <copumpkin> in hawaii
01:54:11 <newsham> goog maps 96706
01:54:12 <shachaf> Ha, why?
01:54:33 <shachaf> All the cool zip codes start with 9, copumpkin.
01:54:48 <copumpkin> I dunno, 0 seems better to me
01:55:05 <newsham> right coasters
01:55:21 <shachaf> More like wrong coasters, am I right?
01:55:42 <shachaf> Hawaiian names look a bit like Finnish names.
01:55:48 <shachaf> Must be all the doubled vowels.
01:57:10 <newsham> alphabet: aeiou hklmnpw` (thats not punctuation, thats a gloteral(sp?) stop)
01:58:37 <shachaf> Glottal?
01:58:50 <newsham> probably
01:59:07 <shachaf> English has glottal stops too, they're just not written.
01:59:12 <newsham> sorry, english is nto my first language
01:59:14 <newsham> i speak american
01:59:23 <newsham> ie. i'm dumb
01:59:26 <shachaf> And I guess they're only at the beginnings of words, and often slurred.
01:59:43 <newsham> if we slur our words enough maybe we can be like the french
01:59:54 <newsham> drunken latin
02:13:11 <elliott> Hm what?
02:13:14 <elliott> newsham: Hi. What?
02:13:26 <elliott> Yes, we do disambiguation pages.
02:13:28 <newsham> hi.
02:13:41 <elliott> Something like Lambda (newsham) or Lambda (yourrealnamehere) or whatever and moving the existing Lambda to a similar title would be ideal.
02:13:49 <elliott> Then create a page like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue.
02:14:12 <elliott> Our current [[Lambda]] page is bad.
02:14:31 <elliott> Seems like the Wayback Machine has the page, at least.
02:14:35 <newsham> authors usually add their language to yoru wiki?
02:15:00 <elliott> Yes. You think more than one person cares about the 5000th brainfuck cipher enough to write a page about it? :)
02:15:17 <elliott> (Not saying anything about your language! Just that the wiki would hardly thrive if we had no vanity.)
02:15:36 <elliott> Probably upwards of 80% of new pages are authors creating pages for their own languages.
02:15:51 <elliott> Of course, if you want someone else to write a page that's fine too. Might not happen, though.
02:16:34 <newsham> i'm shocked that the world hasnt taken to writing new phone apps using my interpeter
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02:21:15 <elliott> it is pure injustice
02:21:16 <shachaf> elliott: Can you guess what newsham's real name is?
02:21:20 <elliott> is it News Ham
02:21:23 <elliott> New Sham
02:21:27 <elliott> Ne Wsham
02:21:30 <elliott> Newsh Am
02:21:46 <shachaf> I do not want green eggs and ham. I do not want them, Newsh I am!
02:23:20 <newsham> will you eat them with a fox? will you eat them in a box?
02:23:37 <shachaf> IOUEgg#
02:32:16 <itidus21> wtf is firefox doing >.< ... i won't abandon it, but apparently it's unaware that it can chill out..
02:32:31 <newsham> ?bf >.<
02:32:31 <lambdabot> Done.
02:33:02 <itidus21> 1 page open, more or less standard html... and its using about 15% cpu..
02:33:03 <newsham> has anyone written meaningful prose that executes as an interesting bf program?
02:33:54 <shachaf> newsham: They play a BF competition game in here.
02:34:16 <shachaf> !bfjoust HELP I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING++++++[>.<>+>]+
02:34:26 <EgoBot> ​Score for shachaf_HELP: 6.7
02:34:39 <shachaf> elliott can tell you the rules.
02:34:57 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust, http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies
02:36:29 <newsham> bf core wars?
02:36:53 <itidus21> !bfjoust tidusthisisntagame >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+<[+<]-[<-+[-]>+[-+]>-][+->+[-<-+>-[+<-]+>]]
02:36:56 <EgoBot> ​Score for itidus21_tidusthisisntagame: 2.1
02:37:33 <elliott> newsham: not quite core wars
02:37:41 <elliott> you have no access to the other program's source in any way, for instance
02:38:51 <itidus21> Fuck it, we'll use python 2. Theres no time for python 3. Fuck it.
02:39:41 <newsham> python 3 is the ipv6 of languages
02:39:47 * itidus21 looks around sheepishly.
02:40:00 <itidus21> this isn't actually the channel i intended to say that.
02:40:51 <newsham> iti: why not? py3 is an esoteric lang, no?
02:41:06 <itidus21> lol
02:41:35 <itidus21> im not really using it to make code, rather to run other peoples code
02:42:36 <newsham> hmm. do esoteric language extensions count? sigfpe wrote a py preprocessor which adds monad comprehensions to python
02:43:35 <newsham> maybe thats too useful to be esolang
02:45:16 <itidus21> i think i'm officially barred from determining what's officially esoteric
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02:57:38 <shachaf> Esolangness isn't just a bit.
02:57:43 <shachaf> There's a continuous scale.
02:57:55 <shachaf> It's measured in esolangstroms.
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05:37:47 <Dovregubben> Hi
05:39:46 <elliott> hi
05:39:48 <elliott> `welcome Dovregubben
05:39:59 <HackEgo> Dovregubben: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:42:31 <Dovregubben> oh, I don't know any esoteric programming languages
05:42:45 <Dovregubben> I found this channel on a site about Conway's Game of Life
05:43:04 <Dovregubben> apparently there's used to be a #gameoflife channel, but there isn't one now
05:43:27 <elliott> I think PH ran that one.
05:43:29 <elliott> He's in here a lot.
05:43:39 <elliott> Game of Life is pretty much on-topic here.
05:43:54 * Dovregubben is afraid the most esoteric programming language he knows is TI-99/4A BASIC
05:44:07 <elliott> also on-topic :P
05:44:22 <itidus21> this guy is already more qualified than me
05:44:49 <Dovregubben> wait.... logo would be considered a language, right?
05:44:59 <Dovregubben> haven't seen that in years....
05:45:02 <elliott> logo is a programming language yes
05:46:50 <Dovregubben> anyone here know anything about Life?
05:47:34 <itidus21> Dovregubben: make yourself comfortable.. i think you're in the right place
06:00:54 <itidus21> i don't. but everyone else does
06:07:20 <elliott> hi
06:07:34 <Dovregubben> hi
06:09:38 <Dovregubben> what qualifies something as a "methuselah?"
06:10:44 <Dovregubben> beyond the obvious, I mean
06:10:57 <Dovregubben> like... does it have to be assymetrical?
06:12:09 <Dovregubben> does it have to be composed only of one instance of a pattern?
06:13:23 <elliott> well it is a specific small configuration that takes many turns to stabilise
06:13:29 <elliott> "small" is of course subjective, as is "many"
06:13:37 <Dovregubben> yeah....
06:13:42 <elliott> "More specifically, Martin Gardner defines them as patterns of fewer than ten live cells which take longer than 50 generations to stabilize"
06:13:50 <Dovregubben> hmm...
06:14:08 <Dovregubben> I've been goofing around with a pattern of 12 cells that takes 1145 generations to stabilize
06:14:20 <elliott> http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Fred what a good pattern
06:14:25 <Dovregubben> I can't be the first person to discover it
06:14:29 <Dovregubben> but I can't find it anywhere
06:14:41 <elliott> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=4610#p4610 nice
06:14:54 <elliott> Dovregubben: take a look at http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/List_of_long-lived_methuselahs or such, perhaps?
06:15:03 <Dovregubben> looked there
06:15:06 <Dovregubben> not there
06:15:18 <Dovregubben> I'm thinking maybe because it's symmetrical it's not considered a methuselah?
06:15:20 <itidus21> The pattern is named after Dr. Fred Edison from the "Maniac Mansion" computer game, whose wife was also called "Edna". <-- heh
06:15:26 <elliott> I don't see why symmetrically would matter
06:15:29 <elliott> *symmetricality
06:34:43 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what elliott thinks of Tcl
06:36:38 <elliott> it's a language
06:36:54 <monqy> something about strings
06:39:33 <elliott> yes, strings are bad data structures
06:41:42 <Sgeo> Apparently, later implementations use good data structures behind the scenes
06:44:07 <elliott> yes because what what we need are low-level languages with high-level implementations
06:44:12 <elliott> my objection was clearly one of performance
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07:01:34 <Dovregubben> Happy Birthday America!
07:02:32 <Dovregubben> It's funny we call this independence day
07:03:37 <Dovregubben> we may have declared independence on July 4, 1776, but the rest of the world didn't recognize us as independent until years later (if at all)
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08:07:17 <Sgeo> Tcl seems like it might be a good language for a codenomic
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08:10:58 <itidus21> `pastelog tcl
08:11:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.5005
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12:15:30 <ion> Meanwhile in Finland http://youtu.be/8H7Qjp9itF8
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15:00:09 <Taneb> Hello!
15:07:16 <boily> Taneb: hi!
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16:08:36 <Taneb> Hello again!
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16:13:42 <Taneb> brb
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16:29:45 <Taneb> Back
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16:47:42 <elliott> @messages?
16:47:42 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
16:52:56 <Taneb> Hello, elliott
16:53:14 <elliott> Haneb,
16:53:16 <elliott> *.
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17:42:14 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /list) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:42:36 <Taneb> No wait, /list lists channels?
17:43:43 -!- Taneb has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:30:52 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, danger rooming advice?
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18:42:24 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, um, what're you having trouble with.
18:42:24 <lambdabot> Phantom__Hoover: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:42:41 <Taneb> Remembering how big they are and whether shields come before armour
18:43:07 <Phantom__Hoover> 5x1 with a door at the end, you give them armour, then weapons, then shield.
18:43:14 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:43:19 <Taneb> Okay
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18:49:18 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh also if you're DRing marksdorfs (for survivability) leave out the weapon altogether; they'll train in hammers rather than crossbows.
18:49:35 <Phantom__Hoover> <lambdabot> ion said 1d 1h 54m 29s ago: Plenty of people have dash cams.
18:49:51 <Phantom__Hoover> You mean they have cameras on their dashboard recording their daily drive?
18:49:54 <Phantom__Hoover> ...why?
18:51:04 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:51:31 <oerjan> @quote
18:51:31 <lambdabot> Makoryu says: Why should people have to change how they think when learning a language with a reputation for changing how you think?!
18:51:53 <oerjan> a conundrum indeed
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18:53:10 <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally.
18:53:25 <nortti> hi again
18:53:29 <Taneb> Hello
18:53:39 <oerjan> aloha
18:53:59 <Taneb> Are there any Icelanders in here
18:55:08 <oerjan> Eyjafjallajökull
18:55:20 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I'm watching my untrained army getting utterly trounced by a wombat
18:58:27 <ion> phantom__hoover: For instance, having more proof than just your word against the other’s in case of a dispute after a crash that wasn’t your fault.
19:00:30 * oerjan smells a norwegian troll here
19:01:00 <elliott> ion isn't trolling, I believe that kind of thing is common in several countries.
19:01:07 <oerjan> except why would a norwegian troll use comcast
19:01:15 <oerjan> elliott: no, i mean from looking at the logs
19:01:19 <elliott> oh
19:01:19 <elliott> link
19:01:50 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-07-04.txt HTH
19:01:57 <elliott> who the fuck uses the .txt logs
19:02:02 <Taneb> Me?
19:02:10 <elliott> why
19:02:14 <oerjan> i do, the text was too big on the others
19:02:18 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:02:19 <Taneb> Habit
19:02:21 <elliott> the font sizes are identical
19:02:36 <Taneb> Paranoia
19:02:39 <nortti> I use txt logs
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19:03:32 <oerjan> elliott: no they're not
19:03:49 <oerjan> of course the .txt probably doesn't set any
19:04:14 <elliott> they ar ethe same for me
19:04:15 <elliott> *are the
19:04:44 <Taneb> Fear
19:05:31 <Taneb> Little shop of horrors is on
19:05:38 <Taneb> So bye
19:05:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:07:23 <oerjan> when i set the formatted page to use small font size, it becomes about the same character size as the .txt, but still with a lot bigger spacing
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19:07:43 <elliott> oerjan: i don't see any troll in the logs
19:07:45 <oerjan> elliott: any way i mean the troll starting with d and ending with ovregubben
19:07:49 <elliott> what
19:07:53 <elliott> why do you think they are a troll
19:08:37 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:08:41 <oerjan> elliott: try googling it
19:09:08 <elliott> oh.
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19:30:32 <Phantom__Hoover> <elliott> Phantom__Hoover: Danger rooms are another example of the kind of pathological behaviour that victory dancing promotes, incidentally.
19:30:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Victory dancing?
19:31:38 -!- Deewiant has joined.
19:34:57 <elliott> the train-skill-by-using system
19:37:02 <Phantom__Hoover> What does that have to do with victory? Or indeed dancing?
19:37:48 <elliott> "victory dancing" is the art of repeatedly "dancing" a trivial victory to train a skill
19:37:58 <elliott> for instance killing plants repeatedly to train a fighting skill
19:41:52 <Phantom__Hoover> Anyway DRs are an example of the system being downright terribly-balanced, so that's hardly the whole of it.
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19:57:59 <ion> Internet Scam Alert: Most "Kickstarter" Projects Just Useless Crap http://youtu.be/qqZ65pUQxyQ
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20:17:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh, they found the Higgs.
20:17:45 <olsner> no, they found a particle that might be like higgs
20:18:00 <olsner> ... with high enough probability to publicly say that they might have found it
20:18:12 <Phantom__Hoover> YOU AND YOUR 'SCIENCE'
20:19:03 <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:30 <oerjan> `addquote <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:38 <HackEgo> 847) <olsner> when everyone else was busy going "ewwww, comic sans!" I was reading the text and learned everything
20:19:41 <oerjan> LET THAT BE A LESSON TO ALL
20:20:01 <olsner> let that be printed in comic sans as a lesson to all
20:20:11 <oerjan> but then most won't learn it!
20:48:08 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, FWIW the particle is very like the Higgs, apparently.
20:49:16 <oerjan> the Wiggs particle
20:52:47 <Phantom__Hoover> Rich Teas are the worst thing ever.
20:52:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120614114901]).
20:53:09 <Phantom__Hoover> I mean a biscuit with 'tea' IN THE NAME that dissolves as soon as it even gets NEAR tea.
20:53:26 <oerjan> almost, but not entirely unlike tea. and the higgs boson.
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20:57:29 <itidus21> super biscuit?
20:58:17 <elliott> <Phantom__Hoover> Rich Teas are the worst thing ever.
20:58:19 <elliott> Fuck this channel.
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20:58:48 <Phantom__Hoover> CAN'T DEAL WITH THE HARD TRUTHS EH
20:59:57 <oerjan> he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he
21:01:07 <Phantom__Hoover> Can we please keep this in the strictly humorous?
21:07:11 * oerjan strictly throws Phantom__Hoover into the hummus
21:08:57 <itidus21> A flea and a fly in a flue, were trapped and knew not what to do,
21:09:03 <itidus21> 'Let us flee', said the fly, 'Let us fly', said the flea, so they flew through a flaw in the flue.
21:10:22 <Phantom__Hoover> Fleas can't fly.
21:13:46 <oerjan> tragic facts
21:13:52 -!- elliott has joined.
21:13:52 <elliott> 20:59:57: <oerjan> he really _does_ have a low tolerance of boring subjects, doesn't he
21:13:59 <elliott> It is not boring, Phantom__Hoover is just wrong and abominable scum.
21:14:00 <elliott> That is all.
21:14:00 <elliott> Die.
21:14:05 -!- elliott has left ("RICH TEA LYF").
21:14:41 <oerjan> ah, it was something immensely important and british. sorry for the misunderstanding.
21:14:42 <Phantom__Hoover> Might I ask you your opinions of digestives whilst you logread?
21:15:35 <olsner> I love digestives, if you mean the crackers
21:15:48 <itidus21> he doesn't mean laxatives :-D
21:15:49 <Phantom__Hoover> I probably mean the crackers.
21:15:52 <olsner> but I pronounce it in Swedish, for hysterical raisins
21:16:16 <oerjan> vad digestiva dom är(o)
21:17:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
21:17:28 <olsner> k ex :D
21:17:42 <nortti> k ex?
21:17:59 <Phantom__Hoover> oerjan, must you *insist* on making the channel's topic a jab against one of its members?
21:18:03 * olsner proudly joins the channel ruining crew
21:18:25 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: no, i'm diluting by expansion
21:18:37 <Phantom__Hoover> Who set the topic to start with?
21:19:47 <oerjan> i'll have to check
21:20:05 <itidus21> i like biscuits with cream filling
21:20:05 <oerjan> `pastelogs ruining this channel
21:20:38 <HackEgo> No output.
21:20:41 <oerjan> `pastelogs ruining this channel
21:20:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4438
21:21:28 * oerjan blames coppro
21:21:34 <itidus21> im not satisfied
21:21:47 <itidus21> but .. the log stands to reason
21:22:21 <itidus21> i'm sure it's more complicated story than tat
21:23:13 <itidus21> ah ok.. i see now
21:23:21 <itidus21> yeah coppro started it
21:24:58 <oerjan> it seemed reasonable in context
21:27:06 <itidus21> i just thought there was more to it
21:29:57 <itidus21> oerjan: 20 years from now you will miss the year 2012
21:31:26 <itidus21> the things we complain about now, will seem so great compared to what the future has in store
21:32:26 <oerjan> ...i think you are overdoing negativity now.
21:32:59 <oerjan> DON'T BLOODY MAKE UP MORE OF IT
21:33:28 <Phantom__Hoover> req. iti be kicked for overbearing, pretentious cynicis,
21:33:31 <Phantom__Hoover> *cynicism
21:33:38 <oerjan> tempting, tempting :P
21:34:12 <itidus21> Current projections show a continued increase in population (but a steady decline in the population growth rate), with the global population expected to reach between 7.5 and 10.5 billion by 2050 -- 7.5billion in 2050.. does this data tell me ANYTHING?
21:34:30 <Phantom__Hoover> It tells you exactly what it fucking says.
21:35:21 <itidus21> it basically says that population is likely to not decrease, and not likely to increase more than 3 billion
21:35:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Maybe if you'd actually try to think for once rather than exposit at length your inability to comprehend anything that isn't handed to you on a platter you could conclude something.
21:35:45 <Phantom__Hoover> See, it's not that hard!
21:36:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Keep it up and you might move beyond an effective mental age of 10.
21:36:06 <itidus21> i bet they actually spent money to reach that data
21:36:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Of course they fucking spent money it's immensely valuable information would you please shut up for once in your life.
21:40:19 <Vorpal> yay there is no a vlc version for android
21:40:49 <Vorpal> still in beta
21:40:59 <Phantom__Hoover> There's no a VLC version for Android??
21:41:05 <Vorpal> now*
21:41:06 <Vorpal> typo
21:41:24 <Phantom__Hoover> This is futile, that basically only makes sense to people who know something of Scottish slang.
21:41:33 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, XD
21:42:33 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, or who read any Discworld book with the Nac Mac Feegle in it.
21:42:43 <nortti> I am still waiting my vlc for mac os 9
21:42:44 <Phantom__Hoover> Maybe
21:42:51 <nortti> *for my
21:42:54 <Phantom__Hoover> nortti, are you seriously using OS9.
21:43:05 <nortti> not OS9, mac os 9
21:43:20 <Vorpal> I want a vlc version for System 7
21:43:24 <nortti> and yes. but my ppc mac broke
21:43:44 <nortti> vlc for system 6 and macminix 1.5
21:44:01 <Vorpal> oh and the beta is currently only for ARMv7 CPUs with Neon (works for me!), though more variants are apparently coming soon
21:44:30 <nortti> by the way does vlc work with minix 2?
21:44:46 <Vorpal> ha ha
21:44:52 <nortti> ?
21:45:29 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, I have an OS 9 laptop somewhere, not really using it unless I get nostalgic
21:45:39 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
21:45:45 <Vorpal> for the old Spiderweb Software and Ambrosia games.
21:45:51 <Phantom__Hoover> I thought he meant he had it on his dumpster machine.
21:45:56 <nortti> Vorpal: have you heard of Classilla
21:45:58 <Vorpal> oh right
21:46:11 <nortti> Phantom__Hoover: my dumpster machine has x86 cpu
21:46:24 <Vorpal> nortti, hey you could emulate OS 9
21:46:27 <Vorpal> this laptop can do it
21:46:32 <Vorpal> though it is very buggy
21:46:36 <Vorpal> google sheepshaver
21:46:51 <nortti> but not very fast and it would require me using X
21:47:33 <Vorpal> it is buggy, doesn't work for all programs, requires mmap_min_addr=0 to run, and is rather messy to compile. Oh and getting hold of the source of it was hard too
21:47:38 <Vorpal> since the project is basically dead
21:47:52 <Vorpal> it works for emulating Avernum 1 and Avernum 2 though (sadly not Avernum 3 and later)
21:48:30 <nortti> Mac OS 9 with irc client with name I cannot remember right now, Classilla, iCab 3.0.5 and Python 2.3 is actually pretty decent
21:48:43 <Vorpal> emulating System 7 on 68k hardware is much more stable
21:48:50 <Vorpal> basiliskII can do that
21:49:27 <nortti> I can believe. I have emulated system 6 on mac classic before and it was pretty stable
21:49:43 <Vorpal> anyway a core 2 Duo at 2.26 G is more than enough to emulate classic mac os. (System 7 boots in less than a second, OS 9 takes a few seconds, but most seem to be spent waiting for some network IO thingy or such)
21:50:06 <nortti> yeah. I have 700MHz pentium III....
21:50:22 <Vorpal> nortti, no I meant emulating system 7 on 68k hardware, with the emulator running on x86
21:50:28 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:50:38 <Vorpal> I haven't emulated system 7 on 68k, that would be silly
21:51:05 <nortti> erm. I meant running sys6 on emulated mac classic on ppc mac
21:51:16 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway BasiliskII (which is also a PITA to compile) might work on your CPU
21:51:39 <Vorpal> no idea if sheepshaver will work
21:51:41 <Vorpal> worth a try
21:52:14 <nortti> Vorpal: did you know that you can actually use mini vmac on m68k macs and with it emulate sys7 m68k machine on sys7 m68k machine=
21:52:18 <Vorpal> but setting it up is a an absolute PITA (and of course requires finding an OS 9 install cd image somewhere, wasn't terribly hard, there was a site that specialised in classic mac os abandonware)
21:52:21 <Vorpal> (forgot the name of it)
21:52:42 <nortti> macintosh garden?
21:52:46 <Vorpal> ah yes
21:52:47 <Vorpal> thats it
21:52:52 <Vorpal> nortti, hm? I thought mini vmac only did up to system 6?
21:52:54 <Vorpal> oh well
21:53:02 <Vorpal> anyway the software I'm interested in is PPC
21:53:06 <Vorpal> so sheepshaver it is for me
21:53:20 <nortti> I have ran sys 7.0 under mini vMac
21:53:35 <nortti> don't know about anything newer
21:53:40 <Vorpal> I only wish I could get Escape Velocity or Escape Velocity Override working under emulation
21:53:44 <Vorpal> those games were awesome
21:54:13 <Vorpal> and of course, the avernum series is stellar
21:55:47 <nortti> umh. basilishII fails x11 check
21:56:07 <nortti> I do actually currently have x11 installed'
21:56:49 <Vorpal> nortti, maybe not the development headers?
21:56:50 <Vorpal> or such
21:56:59 <Vorpal> x11 have a lot of different packages for that
21:57:10 <Vorpal> if you mean configure failed?
21:57:14 <Vorpal> config.log should help
21:57:15 <nortti> yes
21:58:04 <Vorpal> nortti, hm my ~/src/mac contains a debug build of libsdl. Yeah, it can be annoying to get working... XD
21:58:17 <nortti> ...
21:58:33 <Vorpal> nortti, that was for sheepshaver though
21:58:41 <Vorpal> oh looks like I checked SheepShaver out from CVS?
21:59:13 <Vorpal> nortti, if you are interested in SheepSaver this might be useful: :pserver:anoncvs@cvs.cebix.net:/home/cvs/cebix
21:59:22 <Vorpal> repo is "SheepShaver"
21:59:27 <nortti> when my iBook g4 still worked I had pretty much built complete netbsd system under ~/src
21:59:54 <Vorpal> nortti, g4? That thing was way more powerful than your current computer
22:00:05 <nortti> yes. is broke
22:00:08 <Vorpal> I have a first model ibook g3
22:00:14 <Vorpal> dead battery
22:00:22 <nortti> the colored ones
22:00:22 <Vorpal> oh and the power connector is glitchy
22:00:27 <Vorpal> yes, blue
22:00:38 <Vorpal> so you better sit very still when using that computer
22:00:39 <nortti> how much RAM? what OS?
22:01:15 <nortti> ok. let me quess. it has Mac OS 9?
22:01:17 <Vorpal> nortti, OS 9 (came with OS 8.6 iirc, but my dad got an imac SE at the same time, that came with an OS 9 disc, so I used that to upgrade)
22:01:41 <Vorpal> as for RAM, 32 MB built in, 32 MB added
22:01:47 <Vorpal> so a whopping total of 64 MB!
22:02:07 <nortti> same amount of ram as I now have
22:02:21 <Vorpal> 300 MHz
22:02:25 <Vorpal> 3.2 GB disk space
22:02:43 <Vorpal> nortti, which desktop environment do you use?
22:02:45 <Vorpal> LXDE?
22:02:55 <Vorpal> or just a simple window manager?
22:02:58 <Vorpal> like twm
22:03:05 <nortti> I don't use x11. I use links2 -g amd mplayer fbdev
22:03:13 <nortti> *and
22:04:12 <Vorpal> nortti, you need x11 for basiliskII though
22:04:15 <Vorpal> and sheepshaver
22:04:22 <Vorpal> anyway sheepshaver is going to strain your RAM
22:04:24 <nortti> yes. I have it installed
22:04:26 <Vorpal> your CPU is probably fine
22:05:06 <nortti> I sometimes have to use x11 (hv3, netsurf, pygame) and then I either use wwm or mwm
22:05:31 <Vorpal> pygame?
22:05:34 <Vorpal> isn't that a library
22:05:47 <itidus21> i've got pygame.
22:06:10 <nortti> yes. pygame uses sdl and requires x11
22:06:12 <itidus21> the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended
22:06:26 <itidus21> by someone O.o
22:06:32 <nortti> I have python 2.5.1
22:06:38 <itidus21> i don't know :D
22:06:49 <itidus21> i think the most important thing is don't get 3.x
22:07:07 <Vorpal> <itidus21> the trick is to get the right version.. python 2.6.6 is recommended <-- uh?
22:07:20 <Vorpal> anyway python 2.7 should be fine then
22:07:24 <itidus21> well..
22:07:26 <itidus21> i dunno
22:07:29 <Vorpal> 3.x is very different from 2.x
22:07:40 <Vorpal> you need to port all but trivial programs
22:07:56 <Vorpal> usually not too hard to port
22:08:03 <itidus21> i am under the impression that 2.7 might be too far
22:08:13 <itidus21> but i am new to the python world
22:08:13 <Vorpal> unless you are using the C API
22:08:26 <nortti> and at least on windows pygame is not thread safe. when I programmed for it I made my own game engine with corountine scheduler as pygame froze wen I tried to use threads :P
22:08:29 <Vorpal> that can be a lot of work to port (I have first hand experience of that)
22:09:13 <nortti> isn't there a small program for autonmaticaly converting python 2 to python 3?
22:09:29 <Vorpal> nortti, is python ever thread safe?
22:09:39 <Vorpal> it uses a fucking global lock for the entire interpreter
22:09:54 <itidus21> theres a lot of fun little games made for python 2.x
22:09:58 <Vorpal> all you can do is make some pure-C routines drop that lock while doing IO tasks and such
22:10:12 <Vorpal> so python is in effect single threaded
22:10:17 <Vorpal> single core
22:10:46 <nortti> has anybody ever got grail (pure python web browser) to work?
22:11:00 <Vorpal> pure python web browser? Insane
22:11:08 <Vorpal> CPython is slow
22:11:30 <nortti> I know. and it is from the python 2.0 era
22:11:35 <Vorpal> python itself isn't slow. PyPy is like several times faster than CPython
22:11:42 <Vorpal> however, PyPy is still slow
22:11:43 <olsner> might as well use mod_rewrite to render the page into a data: png image
22:11:50 <Vorpal> compared to something like cython
22:12:30 <Vorpal> olsner, to be fair, mod_rewrite is extremely suited to string rewriting, I'm not sure it would perform as good at a task like this
22:13:20 <olsner> you're "not sure"? :D
22:13:33 <Vorpal> olsner, actually I'm sure it wouldn't
22:13:43 <Vorpal> but I don't have hard evidence to back up that statement
22:13:51 <Vorpal> (I haven't tested after all)
22:15:19 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway you can see an order of magnitude speed up using cython instead of cpython
22:15:25 <Vorpal> at least for some use cases
22:15:47 <olsner> oh, I thought cython was a misspelling of cpython
22:15:54 <Vorpal> no
22:17:00 <Vorpal> olsner, we had a lab at university to implement a reversi AI, the course used python. I implemented a pure python version, it managed to get to 5 ply (using alpha-beta pruning). Then I made a cython version and easily got to 8 ply on the same machine. (There were some limits on how long it was allowed to think about a move, iirc 15 seconds)
22:17:29 <Vorpal> a pure C version would probably have performed slightly better than that even (since some python API calls remained)
22:17:38 <Phantom__Hoover> what's a ply
22:17:42 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, a half-move
22:17:50 <Vorpal> it is a term used in reversi AIs
22:18:15 <Vorpal> Phantom__Hoover, so 2 ply means the AI is looking ahead by one move by itself, and one move by the opponent
22:18:39 <Vorpal> I have no idea who invented the word ply for that
22:20:58 <Vorpal> anyways the calls that remained were fairly expensive, some accesses of a python dict iirc. A 2D C array would have been sufficient and worked well, but that would have meant rewriting the teacher-provided GUI code
22:22:04 <Vorpal> (also it would have involved manual memory management)
23:31:55 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:43:26 <nortti_> unix v7 is not very well suitable for daily use
23:46:16 <itidus21> i interpret that as meaning it's best for non-interactive apps like servers
23:47:12 <nortti_> well maybe. it is pretty light
23:47:18 -!- kallisti has joined.
23:47:36 <kallisti> `ls
23:47:39 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
23:49:08 <kallisti> OH GOD THE SILENCE
23:49:11 <kallisti> MAKE IT STOP.
23:49:31 <monqy> hi
23:49:39 <kallisti> hi
23:49:51 <oerjan> SHHHH
23:49:56 <oerjan> WE'RE BEING SILENT HERE
23:50:01 <kallisti> NO FUCK IT
23:50:06 <kallisti> I AM GOING TO MAKE THE WORDS
23:50:11 <oerjan> `? kallisti
23:50:14 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
23:50:23 <kallisti> accurate.
23:50:57 <kallisti> `words 20 # hello does this still work?
23:51:03 <HackEgo> ferrito sciallcifor afl gee nov sorthalfp bearlin euesdi expoemlo preconf koele unglebo tobalmi pion pen quolicalloq guidi maufi johan fliously
23:51:05 <kallisti> yesssss
23:51:17 <kallisti> my #esoteric legacy.
23:51:39 <oerjan> quite
23:54:17 <nortti_> `run file `which words`
23:54:21 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/words: a /usr/bin/perl script text executable
23:54:58 <nortti_> `run cat `which words` | paste
23:55:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27827
23:55:14 <kallisti> `cat paste
23:55:17 <HackEgo> cat: paste: Is a directory
23:55:17 <kallisti> `cat `which paste`
23:55:20 <HackEgo> cat: `which paste`: No such file or directory
23:55:28 <kallisti> oh right
23:55:31 <kallisti> `run cat `which paste`
23:55:34 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTE=- \ else \ PASTE="$1" \ fi \ \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.'"$PASTENUM" \ cat "$PASTE" > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM"
23:55:42 <kallisti> oh right.
23:56:02 <kallisti> `run paste `which words`
23:56:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9578
23:56:11 <kallisti> nortti_: USELESS USE OF CAT POLICE ACTIVATE.
23:57:14 <nortti_> ok. I also grep the cat sometimes
23:57:26 <kallisti> yes, we all do.
23:58:10 <oerjan> `help
23:58:12 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:58:24 <oerjan> you can also look it up in the repository
23:58:49 <kallisti> how.. ordinary.
23:59:24 <oerjan> `which url
23:59:27 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/url
23:59:41 <oerjan> `run url `which words`
23:59:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//hackenv/bin/words
2012-07-05
00:00:24 <oerjan> ...that didn't work
00:01:33 <oerjan> the /hackenv/ shouldn't be there
00:01:43 <oerjan> `cat bin/url
00:01:45 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/'"$1" \ else \ echo 'http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/' \ fi
00:03:26 <oerjan> `run echo $PATH
00:03:29 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
00:06:10 <nortti_> does anyone here have any experience with unix v[567]
00:06:52 <oerjan> istr someone here tried to get something running on the earliest unix possible
00:07:23 <nortti_> unix v1
00:07:29 <nortti_> +?
00:07:49 <oerjan> by "possible", i mean the earliest that was at all reasonable
00:07:58 <nortti_> oh
00:08:55 <nortti_> whar version was it?
00:09:03 <kallisti> you know what would be awesome.. hackbot + simh images
00:09:33 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
00:09:37 <oerjan> nortti_: i'm not implying i remember this at all clearly
00:10:35 <nortti_> what was the command to download data to HackEgo
00:10:40 <kallisti> fetch
00:11:00 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:11:57 <nortti_> but yeah. unix v7 would be fun as it is at least usable for programming kinda modernly
00:12:44 <nortti_> (v6 doesn't have this little thing called stdio)
00:13:18 <itidus21> i forgot that day to day use doesn't normally include programming
00:14:14 <nortti_> oh and from my experience v5 and v6 don't have malloc
00:14:21 <kallisti> `run lsb_release -d
00:14:25 <HackEgo> Description:.Debian GNU/Linux
00:14:46 <kallisti> `run uname -a
00:14:49 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:16:39 <nortti_> HackEgo with old unix images might actually be feasible as some old unixes are now under bsd license
00:17:35 <kallisti> it would be nice to switch between them arbitrarily, but how would it be possible to fetch data into the simulator?
00:19:05 <kallisti> (and obviously mercurial is out of the question)
00:19:30 <kallisti> what kind of console languages do these things even run?
00:19:32 * kallisti is clueless.
00:19:57 <nortti_> original bourne shell, ed sceiprs
00:20:07 <nortti_> *scripts
00:21:05 <nortti_> oh. and little warning. ed is the only text editor on research unixes 0-7
00:21:09 <kallisti> hm, so technically it should be possible to fetch data from a URL and place it some file on the system.
00:21:16 <kallisti> +in
00:21:37 <kallisti> even if you have to do so through ed.
00:21:54 <nortti_> yes. maybe there would be uuencode system
00:22:20 <nortti_> so special chars wouldn't mess it up
00:22:50 <nortti_> # is default char for backspace btw
00:23:31 <kallisti> okay.
00:24:19 <nortti_> stty erase '^H' should fix that
00:24:27 * kallisti comes back to #esoteric, and something exciting is happening.
00:25:03 <kallisti> this is good.
00:25:50 <kallisti> nortti_: is that what you're actually working on, or...?
00:25:57 <nortti_> yes
00:26:13 <nortti_> that and v7-x86 port
00:26:14 <kallisti> do you need... help?
00:26:28 <kallisti> well, "need" is the wrong word.
00:27:20 <nortti_> not really. but I'll tell you if I find sonething interesting to do
00:28:06 <kallisti> it doesn't really need to be interesting. In fact, the less interesting it is the more suited it is, most likely.
00:28:50 * kallisti knowledge of archaic hardware = 0
00:29:20 <nortti_> ok. do you know how to get daemon running on HackEgo
00:30:44 <kallisti> the libc function?
00:31:16 <nortti_> I mean HackEgo has a timeout period for every process
00:31:22 <kallisti> oh.
00:31:32 <kallisti> and you want it to not do that.
00:31:38 <oerjan> i thought HackEgo ran each command in a separate chroot
00:31:48 <kallisti> seperate shell, maybe.
00:31:53 <oerjan> and removed it afterwards...
00:32:05 <nortti_> on separate umlbox
00:32:06 <oerjan> after merging the repositories
00:33:00 <kallisti> I'd have to dive through the source to figure out how to make that possible. Would you want it to be a seperate set of commands from the typical interface?
00:33:22 <nortti_> that sounds good
00:33:59 * oerjan would assume only Gregor could make such a change...
00:34:53 <nortti_> lets create HackEgo2!!
00:35:07 <kallisti> lolno.
00:35:23 <kallisti> I'm actually basically going to do something sort of like that with my current perl bot.
00:35:35 <kallisti> eventually.
00:35:47 <nortti_> your perl bot?
00:35:57 <kallisti> oh yes. I have a bot written in perl.
00:36:10 <kallisti> I should probably put it on github or something.
00:36:56 <kallisti> it's pretty easy to add things to it. you could do all the chroot jail stuff as a plugin.
00:37:01 <nortti_> actually I think I could integrate simh in my own irc bot
00:37:49 <kallisti> ls
00:37:51 <kallisti> er
00:37:52 <kallisti> wrong window.
00:37:58 <kallisti> nortti_: language?
00:38:03 <nortti_> python
00:38:31 <kallisti> yes, should be (fairly) painless.
00:39:26 <nortti_> you can play with it on this channel or on #esoteric-en. #help should show you the start and you can ask more about it from me
00:39:48 <Gregor> Yeah, HackEgo isn't designed for daemons.
00:39:53 <Gregor> I couldn't think of a way to do that safely.
00:39:57 <Gregor> If you have suggestions, lay 'em on me.
00:40:29 <nortti_> oonbotti: do you still work?
00:40:30 <oonbotti> nortti_: Why do you ask that?
00:40:56 <nortti_> ok. my code cleaning didn't break it this time
00:47:43 <kallisti> here's some examples of what a plugin looks like with the perl bot: http://sprunge.us/beGU?perl and http://sprunge.us/aVeD?perl
00:47:56 <kallisti> so you can see if you're interested.
00:48:39 * kallisti is about to switch from using Tie::Persistent to Tie::Hash::MongoDB for plugin persistence, since the former is kind of bad.
00:51:26 <kallisti> of course, you would need to use perl.
00:51:30 <kallisti> which could be a problem.
00:52:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:53:09 * kallisti spots flaws in URL plugin
00:53:26 <kallisti> not semantic. just needless verbosity.
00:57:25 <comex> `ls
00:57:28 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
00:57:32 <comex> `run ls
00:57:35 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
00:57:42 <comex> `id
00:57:45 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=905193
00:57:49 <comex> `id
00:57:52 <HackEgo> uid=5000 gid=552091
00:57:55 <comex> `ps aux
00:57:58 <HackEgo> USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TTY STAT START TIME COMMAND \ 0 1 0.0 0.1 912 276 ? S 00:57 0:00 /init \ 0 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [kthreadd] \ 0 3 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [ksoftirqd/0] \ 0 4 0.0 0.0 0 0 ? S 00:57 0:00 [kworker/0:0] \ 0 5 0.0 0.0 0
00:58:05 <Gregor> It works in PM
00:58:23 <comex> :p
01:25:05 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )).
01:30:52 -!- rolebot has joined.
01:30:57 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:30:58 <kallisti> `unload Haskell
01:30:58 <rolebot> Done.
01:31:01 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unload: not found
01:31:07 <kallisti> oh right.
01:31:09 <kallisti> that will be an issue.
01:32:10 <kallisti> $help
01:32:25 <kallisti> ~help
01:32:45 <kallisti> `perl use Rolebot::Config; $Rolebot::Config::cmd_prefix='~$';
01:32:45 <rolebot> "~\$"
01:32:48 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "use Rolebot::Config; $Rolebot::Config::cmd_prefix='~$';": No such file or directory
01:32:56 <kallisti> ~help
01:33:22 <kallisti> oh, duh.
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01:34:26 <kallisti> ~help
01:34:26 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
01:35:31 <kallisti> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4
01:35:37 <rolebot> HEYYEYAAEYAAAEYAEYAA - YouTube
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03:09:11 <augur> there's a guy on the emp servers
03:09:19 <augur> called oglokoog
03:09:28 <augur> and for a second i thought it might be oklopol
03:19:30 <edwardk> hah
03:20:16 <kallisti> parametric subtyping could be interesting
03:20:43 <kallisti> so a type T x where T x is a subtype of x
03:20:50 <kallisti> does something like this already exist?
03:21:27 <edwardk> kallisti: in other languages, not scala
03:21:42 <kallisti> er, not sure why scala was the default choice.
03:21:50 <edwardk> sorry, thought i was in #scala when i replied
03:21:59 <kallisti> oh, lol. NOPE
03:22:16 <kallisti> you're in the weird part of freenode.
03:22:19 <edwardk> you can do that in c++ with a template for instance
03:22:47 <edwardk> template <class Baseclass, class Renderer> class TextureTemplate : public Baseclass
03:22:49 <kallisti> but C++ templates are just glorified text macros.
03:28:05 <kallisti> which, I guess doesn't really mean much. it's still a "type constructor" of some description.
03:31:36 <kallisti> edwardk: would you recommend learning Scala?
03:31:44 <edwardk> no
03:32:32 <kallisti> I've been looking at branching out from Haskell into hybrid FP languages. I was thinking either Clojure or Scala.
03:32:39 <kallisti> but may O'Caml would be a good choice.
03:32:40 <edwardk> when programming in haskell, when the compiler craps out i know its my code and i can fix it accordingly
03:32:41 <kallisti> *maybe
03:33:07 <edwardk> when programming in scala maybe 1 in 10 times i find a bug its because of a bug in the scala compiler, not my code
03:33:12 <edwardk> screw that
03:33:16 <kallisti> ah. yeah..
03:35:14 <edwardk> i have perfectly well define scala code that causes their compiler to just crap out and emit partial classes thinking they are closed and they have told me they just don't intend to fix it
03:35:28 <kallisti> wonderful.
03:36:15 <kallisti> specs are just figments of your imagination.
03:37:45 <edwardk> scala is probably the most usable strict functional language to me, and that is sad ;)
03:37:59 <kallisti> these days my programming is mostly in Haskell, Perl, or bash. I'm not sure if this is good (I've settled on a set of tools I find applicable to most situations) or bad (I'm getting too comfortable and should dabble in other things for a while)
03:38:17 <edwardk> ocaml is easy to understand how it the resulting code gets built, it plugs into an gcc like toolchain very easily
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05:01:21 <Chaotic_D> I'm searching. ... but I guess I'm trying really hard not to find anything. and succeeding.
05:01:30 <Chaotic_D> Hello.
05:03:30 <Chaotic_D> oh, I see. My mistake. Thanks.
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05:05:51 <edwardk> lolwut
05:12:03 <kallisti> maybe he was looking for #soteric
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07:08:52 <fizzie> I... don't suppose anyone would know offhand whether a European driver's license is a good enough ID for the "you must be able to show ID" requirement Belgian print-it-yourself PDF railway tickets have?
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07:09:38 <olsner> I guess it depends on the railway company what they accept
07:10:19 <fizzie> It's SNCB, the Belgian national railway company.
07:10:29 <fizzie> Maybe it's here in the FAQ. (Maybe it's not.)
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09:39:21 * itidus21 is pondering idly.
09:40:26 <fizzie> Oh no! We should all get to cover.
09:41:18 <itidus21> in order to do anything you have to concede to not do anything else, until you are done
09:43:28 <itidus21> so people set up the category of time wasted. that doing a thing is either wasting time or it isn't
09:44:56 <itidus21> then, there is selecting from among the activities deemed to be not wasting time, so they say, what interests you? what can you do?
09:45:37 <itidus21> with this point of view, time spent watching videos is wasted on a blind man, and time spent listening to music is wasted on a deaf man
09:46:21 <itidus21> but if a man is presented with a foreign text, he could read it if he invested sufficient time in learning the foreign language
09:47:45 <itidus21> and interests are sometimes circumstantial, such as being interested in things you already had some exposure to, or things which play into your biases
09:51:24 <itidus21> but also it is advised by many to not indulge in activities for pleasure which often comes at others pain, or wealth which often comes at others loss, or power which often comes with corruption
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09:52:50 <itidus21> im starting to spin away from reality though
09:52:57 <itidus21> in my posts
09:54:10 <itidus21> anyway, a business specializes in this and concedes to not specialize in that; a shop specializes in selling X, and concedes to not sell Y
09:54:29 <itidus21> a book's pages discuss X and concede to not discuss Y
09:56:24 <itidus21> and a person is at place X and concedes not to be at anyplace Y;
09:56:53 <itidus21> </rant>
09:59:46 <itidus21> maybe my point is that it's wrong to view it as a concession
10:02:11 <itidus21> or not. anyway i'm all done
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11:00:13 <ion> Daywalt Horror: There’s No Such Thing… http://youtu.be/TJytKD2Kt-w
11:00:14 <rolebot> DAYWALT HORROR: There's No Such Thing... - YouTube
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12:35:43 <nortti> do you have any idea why simh pdp11 emulator eats some parts of the starts of input stream if it is from pipe or file?
12:46:01 <fizzie> Maybe it expects that files have some kind of a header? (Or it's just buggy.)
12:46:30 <fizzie> The source would at least know.
12:47:03 <nortti> I mean like pdp11 < input
12:47:45 <nortti> also it chopd off bytes at the start of every line
12:49:21 <fizzie> ./sim_console.c:1135:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */
12:49:24 <fizzie> ./sim_console.c:1177:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */
12:49:27 <fizzie> ./sim_console.c:1192:if (!isatty (fileno (stdin))) /* skip if !tty */
12:49:30 <fizzie> I'd check those bits first.
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12:50:07 <elliott> Deewiant: What's the UTF-8 byte sequence for the Unicode FULL BLOCK character?
12:50:39 <fizzie> I'm not Deewiant, but I believe 0xE2 0x96 0x88.
12:50:47 <elliott> Thanks.
12:50:49 <elliott> You are good enough.
12:50:52 <elliott> For now.
12:50:55 <fizzie> Yay.
12:51:08 <Deewiant> Yes, that's correct.
12:51:19 <elliott> I was waiting for Deewiant to confirm it.
12:51:21 <elliott> I don't trust fizzie/
12:51:23 <fizzie> Unyay.
12:51:23 <elliott> *fizzie.
12:51:35 <elliott> Okay, thanks.
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12:52:11 <elliott> Say it looks like
12:52:12 <elliott> â~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ~V~Hâ
12:52:13 <elliott> instead.
12:52:24 <elliott> Why is that happening? I'm using a UTF-8 terminal all proper and evreything.
12:52:25 <elliott> *everything
12:52:29 <elliott> Maybe this function is messing it up.
12:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe it's, like, byte orders and shit
12:53:07 <elliott> Deewiant: Ah, addch is being called on each byte of the UTF-8 thing.
12:53:09 <Deewiant> That first character is U+00E2 so that's latin-1 (or another latin-x) somewhere.
12:53:14 <elliott> How do I make that work? :(
12:53:22 <Deewiant> waddch? :-P
12:53:36 <Deewiant> (I don't know.)
12:53:38 <elliott> waddch appears to be window-addch, not wide-addch.
12:53:44 <Deewiant> Yes, I knew that.
12:54:24 <elliott> Are you sure you know anything any more?
12:54:43 <Deewiant> Try adding A_ALTCHARSET to the characters.
12:55:16 <itidus21> if you can learn from your false axioms, then it's less likely to be a dream
12:55:26 <elliott> Adding howso, Deewiant?
12:55:30 <fizzie> addch ACS_BLOCK instead and hope things work out right?
12:55:33 <Deewiant> elliott: Er, also: are you linking to libncursesw?
12:55:57 <elliott> Deewiant: -lncurses, apparently. I guess I should change that? But I thought those were The Same in 2012.
12:55:59 <Deewiant> elliott: Literally +, though it's probably a high bit mask thing so | is more semantic.
12:56:42 <Deewiant> The libncurses.so here is 44K smaller than the libncursesw.so.
12:57:46 <fizzie> There's an add_wch thing too, but I have no idea when it comes to the whole ncurses/ncursesw mess. It certainly doesn't feel like 2012 if you go in there.
12:57:55 <Deewiant> Yes, I just found that as well.
12:58:23 <Deewiant> You might need to setlocale(), too.
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12:59:04 <elliott> fizzie: What header is ACS_BLOCK in. :(
12:59:45 <fizzie> It's in my 'man addch' which just mentions <curses.h>.
12:59:59 <elliott> thanx
13:00:06 <nortti> hmm. I changed sim_console source so it thinks it is a tty. It still doesn't work
13:00:57 <elliott> fizzie: ACS_BLOCK shows as the digit 0. :/
13:01:40 <elliott> I will try Deewiant's idea.
13:01:49 <elliott> Deewiant: By the way, these characters need to be coloured.
13:01:53 <Deewiant> I'd recommend add_wch first.
13:01:56 <elliott> Will A_ALTCHARSET mess that up?
13:01:57 <elliott> Okay.
13:02:06 <Deewiant> I don't know, I'm just googling stuff.
13:02:39 <elliott> Yes, Deewiant.
13:02:41 <elliott> That is what I need you for.
13:03:06 <elliott> So, add_wch(0x2588), I suppose.
13:03:07 <Deewiant> And grepping, too, if fizzie hadn't answered the ACS_BLOCK header thing.
13:03:14 <elliott> Oh, wait, it's a pointer, what.
13:03:56 <Deewiant> You need to use setcchar() to initialize it, apparently.
13:04:04 <elliott> :/
13:04:11 <Deewiant> That takes a const wchar_t* and turns it into a cchar_t.
13:04:19 <Deewiant> Along with the colour and whatnot.
13:04:20 <elliott> A const wchar_t * and a thousand other parameters.
13:04:21 * itidus21 hunts down whoever designed this.
13:04:38 <elliott> Anyway, uh. Maybe I will just use octothorpes instead.
13:04:42 <Deewiant> The last parameter is evidently reserved and must be NULL.
13:04:51 <Deewiant> Did you do the libncursesw thing?
13:05:37 <elliott> Oh. No. Was the expectation that that would fix the original solution?
13:05:47 <Deewiant> I thought it might.
13:05:54 <Deewiant> Also do the setlocale thing.
13:05:55 <elliott> I will try.
13:06:07 <Deewiant> setlocale(LC_ALL, "") if I recall the incantation correctly.
13:06:58 <elliott> OK, trying.
13:10:01 <fizzie> nortti: I'unno, assuming the POSIX impls it seems to be just read()ing a single byte at a time, which should happen more or less similarly no matter where the input comes from. But it's a bit convoluted code, I'm not sure what that whole KFLAG deal is.
13:10:26 <elliott>
13:10:29 <elliott> Is this the right character?
13:10:48 <fizzie> It looks like a block to me.
13:11:05 <elliott> Thanks Deewiant you are the "best" (best here is used figuratively).
13:11:06 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
13:11:17 -!- fizzie has set topic: The Unicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
13:11:21 <Deewiant> And yes, that's the right character.
13:11:55 <Deewiant> Now I wonder what ended up being necessary.
13:11:57 <fizzie> I was going to do that /topic thing right after e first left, but didn't manage before this add-on question.
13:14:26 -!- elliott has joined.
13:14:33 <elliott> Is there a block character like that that isn't quite as tall?
13:14:49 <Deewiant> U+2587 LOWER SEVEN EIGHTHS BLOCK ?
13:15:08 <elliott> Preferably vertically centred? It is okay if this is impossible.
13:16:45 <Deewiant> Can't seem to find one.
13:19:44 <Deewiant> See e.g. http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/block_elements.html
13:19:44 <rolebot> Block Elements – Test for Unicode support in Web browsers
13:19:51 <Deewiant> That's a new one.
13:21:08 <Deewiant> ~help
13:21:09 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
13:21:18 <Deewiant> ~help Messages
13:21:19 <rolebot> Messages commands: messages, tell
13:21:21 <Deewiant> ~help RP
13:21:21 <rolebot> RP commands: roll, system
13:21:28 <Deewiant> ~help system
13:21:29 <rolebot> Usage: system [<system name>] -- switches the dice roller to another system
13:21:32 <Deewiant> ~help frink
13:21:33 <rolebot> Usage: frink <expression> -- Executes a frink expression. Frink is a powerful calculator program. See http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/ for more information.
13:21:42 <Deewiant> O kay.
13:21:59 <elliott> What is this thing?
13:22:11 <elliott> Is it really going to spam every time someone pastes a link in the channel?
13:22:36 <elliott> (Amusingly both @dice and `frink already exist...)
13:23:14 <Deewiant> Looks like kallisti put it here about 12 hours ago.
13:23:15 <nortti> > 1+1
13:23:16 <rolebot> 2
13:23:17 <lambdabot> 2
13:23:19 <nortti> :P
13:23:22 <elliott> Niiiice.
13:23:26 <elliott> Have fun with that.
13:23:28 <elliott> Oh well, not my problem.
13:23:30 -!- elliott has left ("Bye!").
13:23:43 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
13:23:48 <nortti> > "#echo foo"
13:23:49 <rolebot> "#echo foo"
13:23:50 <lambdabot> "#echo foo"
13:23:54 <Phantom_Hoover> http://google.com
13:24:01 <nortti> $echo foo
13:24:36 <nortti> rolebot has no echo commabd?
13:24:45 <Deewiant> ~echo foo
13:24:51 <Deewiant> ~help words
13:24:52 <rolebot> Use words --help for help
13:24:55 <Deewiant> ~words --help
13:24:56 <rolebot> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS]
13:24:56 <rolebot> ..options:
13:24:56 <rolebot> .. -l, --list list valid datasets
13:24:56 <rolebot> .. -d, --debug debugging output
13:25:01 <Deewiant> O kay.
13:25:04 <Deewiant> Evidently not.
13:26:40 <nortti> > PutStrLn "foo"
13:26:41 <rolebot> Not in scope: data constructor `PutStrLn'
13:26:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `PutStrLn'
13:26:49 <nortti> > putStrLn "foo"
13:26:51 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
13:26:51 <rolebot> <IO ()>
13:27:56 <fizzie> ~words --finnish 10
13:27:57 <rolebot> päristanisimmissä tukoiltakuluvisuu taituminään otsillaajenetukeavaltu saantua ruosi puneinäni innoilisto sammiltasin leimpiensa
13:28:11 <Deewiant> > fix id
13:28:15 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
13:28:17 <rolebot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
13:28:17 <rolebot> ..mueval: Prelude.undefined
13:28:30 <fizzie> What, it does > too?
13:28:35 <Deewiant> > last [1..]
13:28:39 <fizzie> I only noticed that link title thing.
13:28:39 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
13:28:40 <rolebot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
13:28:41 <rolebot> ..mueval: Prelude.undefined
13:29:06 <fizzie> Is that a good idea?
13:29:21 <Deewiant> Nope.
13:29:31 <fizzie> Should I quiet it for the moment, maybe?
13:30:06 <Deewiant> If you want. Alternatively, wait until it's a problem and hope you're online? :-P
13:30:19 <nortti> $tell kallisti so you rolebot really is lambdabot clone
13:30:19 <rolebot> Done.
13:30:32 <Deewiant> $version
13:30:40 <Deewiant> ~version
13:30:54 <nortti> $tell nortti foo
13:30:55 <rolebot> Tell yourself.
13:30:56 <nortti> ok
13:31:05 <nortti> $tell rolebot foo
13:31:06 <rolebot> Cool!
13:31:08 <fizzie> I'm possibly not online terribly well from here, since we need to get all our tourismy stuff done in the evenings.
13:31:16 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q *!*@h47.28.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net.
13:31:32 <fizzie> I was hoping for a nick-based +q.
13:31:35 <Deewiant> Does that shut up kallisti as well?
13:31:39 <fizzie> Probably.
13:31:46 <fizzie> That's what I get for trusting ChanServ to do the sensible thing.
13:32:02 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -q *!*@h47.28.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net.
13:32:09 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
13:32:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, you say that like it's a bad thing.
13:32:23 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q rolebot!*@*.
13:32:30 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
13:32:32 <nortti> > (+) 1 1
13:32:34 <lambdabot> 2
13:32:35 <fizzie> (I feel stupid now.)
13:32:41 <nortti> :P
13:33:12 <fizzie> $tell kallisti make that thing not answer plain '>' but to use some other prefix and I'll -q it.
13:37:23 -!- elliott has joined.
13:37:28 <elliott> Also $ is a supremely bad bot prefix.
13:37:32 <elliott> (And hugging three bot prefices is just rude.)
13:37:52 <elliott> (...as is spewing a line on every single line with a URL in it, but I already covered that.)
13:37:55 <elliott> Wait, why did I rejoin?
13:37:56 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
13:38:21 <nortti> is using three prefixes rude if one of them is oonbotti: ?
13:38:33 <fizzie> ?tell lambdabot did you know you're rude too
13:38:34 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
13:38:52 <fizzie> @tell lambdabot well, you *are*, you have some many prefixen
13:38:52 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
13:39:22 <nortti> prefixen?
13:39:38 <Deewiant> box, boxen ~ prefix, prefixen
13:39:42 <fizzie> Right.
13:39:51 <nortti> unix, unixen?
13:39:57 <fizzie> s/some/so/ though.
13:40:06 <fizzie> VAX, VAXen.
13:40:35 <nortti> #msg oonbotti can you send messages to yourself? I forget
13:40:35 <oonbotti> Ok
13:42:58 <fizzie> More stupid things: using this leftover workstation that's some old Athlon 64 X2 with one (1) gigabyte of memory (it goes all swappity-swap whenever I flip from MATLAB to Firefox) even though my personal laptop would have (a) more cores, (b) eight times the memory, and (c) a non-awkward keyboard layout. It's just that it's obviously impossible to get that inducted as a member of the local ...
13:43:04 <fizzie> ... networks.
13:43:34 <Deewiant> What do you need the local networks for?
13:43:42 <nortti> and that is still more powerful than any computer I have ever haf
13:43:44 <fizzie> All the data is in there.
13:43:45 <nortti> *had
13:44:14 <Deewiant> Then ssh, and run firefox on your laptop.
13:44:24 <Deewiant> Unless firefox needs the data too.
13:44:50 <fizzie> Well, it needs a network. There's supposed to be some sort of wireless, though.
13:45:05 <Deewiant> Where are you? :-P
13:45:16 <nortti> #quit
13:45:19 <kallisti> hm..
13:45:20 <Deewiant> If at work, there should be 2-3 networks.
13:45:20 <fizzie> http://www.esat.kuleuven.be/ <- here.
13:45:23 <kallisti> oh I thought I disabled Haskell.
13:45:38 <kallisti> ~unload Haskell
13:45:39 <Deewiant> Doesn't everywhere have eduroam?
13:46:09 <fizzie> I haven't ever used eduroam anywhere, I don't even know how to formulate my user name there. I guess I could try it out, though.
13:46:16 <fizzie> There's a local 'campusnet' too, though.
13:46:22 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:46:33 <kallisti> Haskell clonage is no longer a thing.
13:46:39 <Deewiant> It was a huge pain, but I got it to work on both my laptop and my phone yesterday.
13:47:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
13:47:14 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q iforgotthebotnam!*@*.
13:47:24 <Deewiant> That wasn't helpful.
13:47:25 <kallisti> lol
13:47:26 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q rolebot!*@*.
13:47:29 <Deewiant> > 1+1
13:47:31 <lambdabot> 2
13:47:34 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
13:47:36 <Deewiant> ~load haskell
13:47:36 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges.
13:47:40 <nortti> ~help
13:47:40 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
13:47:45 <kallisti> ~help
13:47:45 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
13:47:52 <Deewiant> ~help Admin
13:47:53 <rolebot> Admin commands: admin, ignore, load, perl, shutdown, unignore, unload
13:47:59 <nortti> ~help lastsaid
13:48:00 <rolebot> Usage: lastsaid [<nick>] -- shows the last thing someone said while identified by services
13:48:04 <fizzie> Well, I had already written the "/mode #esoteric -q" bit.
13:48:16 <nortti> ~lastsaid zzo38
13:48:17 <rolebot> Nothing said by zzo38
13:48:18 <Deewiant> Can't you down-arrow to do something else?
13:48:27 -!- TodPunk has joined.
13:48:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yeeeeees, but...
13:48:41 <kallisti> ~frink 50 euros -> dollars_1960
13:48:45 <rolebot> 7.9747344603267845878
13:48:56 <kallisti> I basically just took everything I liked from all the #esoteric bots. :P
13:49:10 <kallisti> $time London
13:49:11 <rolebot> Time in London, United Kingdom (GMT+1): 2012-07-05 14:49
13:49:41 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
13:50:13 -!- oonbotti has joined.
13:50:26 <kallisti> http://example.com/
13:50:26 <rolebot> IANA — Example domains
13:50:31 <nortti> kallisti: why doesn't your bot have echo?
13:50:39 <kallisti> ...why... would it?
13:50:51 <kallisti> `perl "echo"
13:50:58 <kallisti> >_>
13:51:01 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script ""echo"": No such file or directory
13:51:05 <kallisti> lol?
13:51:06 <nortti> because every bot must have echo!
13:51:13 <kallisti> > text "echo"
13:51:14 <lambdabot> echo
13:51:15 <kallisti> >_>
13:51:23 <nortti> @echo foo
13:51:23 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {msgServer = "freenode", msgLBName = "lambdabot", msgPrefix = "nortti!~juhani@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi", msgCommand = "PRIVMSG", msgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo foo"]}
13:51:24 <lambdabot> rest:"foo"
13:51:28 <nortti> ^echo foo
13:51:29 <fungot> foo foo
13:51:30 -!- mromanb has joined.
13:51:33 <nortti> `echo foo
13:51:35 <mroman> can it do
13:51:35 <kallisti> nortti: presumably so you can bot loop it?
13:51:35 <HackEgo> foo
13:51:40 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu -[+>+<[+<]>]>+
13:51:41 <mromanb> Cells used: 4;[0, 1, 2, 3]
13:51:47 <kallisti> no
13:52:08 <nortti> kallisti: no. you should use some kind of ignore list or whitespace/nbsp
13:52:19 <kallisti> `ignore mromanb lambdabot HackEgo
13:52:21 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
13:52:28 <kallisti> $ignore mromanb lambdabot HackEgo
13:52:28 <rolebot> Done.
13:52:31 <kallisti> okay.
13:52:41 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/lol.html
13:52:42 <rolebot> ^ul (http://users.ics.tkk.fi/lol.html)S
13:52:42 <fungot> http://users.ics.tkk.fi/lol.html
13:52:44 <rolebot> 404 Not Found
13:52:50 <fizzie> Whoops, I typoed the URL.
13:52:57 <kallisti> $ignore fungot
13:52:57 <rolebot> Done.
13:52:58 <fungot> kallisti: that's the scheme ( no pun intended
13:52:58 <nortti> #echo !echo foo
13:52:59 <oonbotti> !echo foo
13:53:01 <EgoBot> foo
13:53:05 <nortti> #echo !echo #echo foo
13:53:06 <oonbotti> !echo #echo foo
13:53:06 <EgoBot> ​#echo foo
13:53:14 <fizzie> Damnable typos.
13:53:27 <kallisti> lol
13:53:34 <nortti> #echo ~words 8
13:53:35 <oonbotti> ~words 8
13:53:35 <rolebot> condannons care cepta imr bira man airt vdharaud
13:54:11 <fizzie> Anyway, the whole URL title thing is kinda noisy. I don't care enough to mind, but I'd vote nay if it came to a vote.
13:54:16 <fizzie> ^ignore
13:54:17 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti)!
13:54:30 <kallisti> fizzie: I can turn it off. or, you know, just have the bot leave, since it doesn't need to be here.
13:54:31 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|rolebot)!
13:54:32 <fungot> OK.
13:54:46 <fizzie> Well, if someone else complains.
13:54:48 <kallisti> it does squelch itself if the title contains absolutely no new information.
13:54:52 <kallisti> http://google.com/
13:55:18 <kallisti> which is often.
13:56:27 <fizzie> Also, does someone have a guess what "Meat tree with cauliflower" is? (It's on the menu here.)
13:57:24 <fizzie> Google just finds Snopes articles about meat trees and whatnot.
13:57:34 <kallisti> what the hell is a meat tree.
13:57:41 <kallisti> ......
13:57:44 <kallisti> why did I ask that.
13:57:47 <fizzie> A tree that bears meat instead of fruit.
13:57:53 <fizzie> I think.
13:58:02 <Deewiant> But does it meet bears?
13:58:42 <kallisti> `ignore Egobot toBogE Sparkbot optBot oonbotti
13:58:44 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
13:58:47 <kallisti> bah
13:58:50 <kallisti> $ignore Egobot toBogE Sparkbot optBot oonbotti
13:58:50 <rolebot> Done.
13:58:52 <kallisti> the old prefix was `
13:58:59 <fizzie> It's "Boomstammetje met bloemkool" in the local lingo, if that helps. (Google translate from Dutch just says "Trunk Metje with cauliflower" about that...)
14:00:12 <fizzie> Image search with that does find some consistent results, though.
14:00:24 <fizzie> Some sort of a round thing.
14:01:02 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:01:20 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:02:04 <mroman> mromanb: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> efn
14:02:04 <myndzi> |
14:02:04 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:02:04 <myndzi> /`\
14:02:14 <mroman> ok. it's still buggy :)
14:03:27 -!- itidus20 has joined.
14:04:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: Re eduroam, I tried it once with the phone but there was something about certificates. Anyway, what was the format for the user name? account@aalto.fi?
14:05:08 <Deewiant> account@org.aalto.fi
14:05:16 <Deewiant> At least, that's the one that works for me.
14:05:25 <Deewiant> Depending on what OS's instructions you look at there are three options.
14:05:55 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:06:24 <fizzie> I think I saw "now @aalto.fi" somewhere.
14:06:27 <Deewiant> The certificate to use changed in March, and the one it changed to didn't work for me (not "Thawte root CA" which I guessed mapped to Thawte Primary Root CA; what worked was Thawte Premium Server CA)
14:06:30 <Deewiant> Yes, I saw that too.
14:06:45 -!- oonbotti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
14:06:51 <Deewiant> What works for me is the org.aalto.fi plus a certificate that isn't mentioned anywhere in the instructions.
14:06:55 <Deewiant> Works both on the phone and the laptop.
14:07:17 <fizzie> I think I'll try this local eduroam with the phone.
14:07:29 <fizzie> Though it asks for EAP type (PEAP/TLS/TTLS).
14:07:33 <Deewiant> PEAP.
14:07:52 <fizzie> And I guess EAP MSCHAPv2 over EAP GTC, at least in Aalto.
14:07:56 <Deewiant> (I found the correct certificate by observing wpa_cli and then using strace to see what certificate the access point sends.)
14:07:59 <fizzie> Not all eduroams are set up the same way, though.
14:08:08 <Deewiant> True.
14:08:16 -!- copumpkin has joined.
14:08:18 <coppro> eduroam is great
14:08:18 <Deewiant> At Aalto it's PEAP and MSCHAPv2.
14:08:26 <fizzie> At some point, some of them were using some sort of weird 802.1x+WEP combo.
14:08:26 <coppro> it's that at UW as well
14:09:43 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:09:46 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
14:09:47 <mroman> mromanb: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> efn
14:09:48 <mromanb> [mroman] [128.0]
14:09:48 <myndzi> |
14:09:48 <myndzi> >\
14:09:58 <mroman> ah, there we go.
14:10:12 <fizzie> "osso-wlan (3.0.20) unstable; urgency=low
14:10:13 <fizzie> * Fixed: NB#159194 - Add support for WEP cipher in WPA mode to support Eduroam, fixes the regression
14:10:16 <fizzie> -- Jin Qing <ext-qing.1.jin@nokia.com> Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:34:40 +0300"
14:10:22 <fizzie> Sounds such a weird thing to do.
14:11:31 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 avg \
14:11:31 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:11:49 <mroman> hm :(
14:12:13 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 | avg \
14:12:13 <mromanb> [mroman] [11.5]
14:12:18 <nortti> osso-wlan?
14:12:42 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 .|^A \
14:12:43 <mromanb> [mroman] None
14:13:15 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 10 13 | ^A \
14:13:15 <mromanb> [mroman] [11.5]
14:13:49 <fizzie> nortti: N900 has all kinds of 'osso-this' and 'osso-that' and 'whatever-osso' packages; AFAIK comes from the OSSO (Open Source Software Operations) organization at Nokia.
14:14:07 <fizzie> "The OSSO organization (Open Source Software Operations) goal was to bring Nokia’s first Open Source and Linux based mobile terminal on the market and build an open source platform to support future product development."
14:14:31 <fizzie> From the days of those Internet Tablets.
14:15:09 <nortti> oh those. I have 770 and n810
14:15:31 <nortti> thinking about it weren't there a osso-xterm
14:15:37 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M [] 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : {?2} /f \
14:15:37 <fizzie> Yes.
14:15:37 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:15:45 <fizzie> It's funny how they keep putting those NB#xxxxxx internal bug-tracker bug ids everywhere, but of course it's not publicly available anywhere.
14:15:48 <mroman> Ok. I unlearned how to code in it :D
14:16:44 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:16:51 <fizzie> osso-xterm, the terminal that can't do dark grey.
14:17:15 <fizzie> (Well, technically speaking it's the libvte4 package's fault.)
14:18:17 -!- oonbotti has joined.
14:18:17 <fizzie> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7164 -- the long, hard life of a bug report.
14:19:08 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:19:11 <fizzie> "SOFTWARE VERSION: 1.2009.42-11 -- Updating version field: Still an issue in 5.0/(2.2009.51-1) -- Updating version field again, is still broken in 10.2010.19-1 --"
14:20:00 <nortti> is there any development in maemo fremantle?
14:20:20 <fizzie> There's that Community SSU thing.
14:20:31 <fizzie> Which is where that one-line patch finally ended in.
14:20:58 <nortti> yay
14:21:25 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M {?2} [] 1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : ./f/S(s # \
14:21:26 <mromanb> [mroman] ['6', '.', '0']
14:21:52 <nortti> mromanb: help
14:21:52 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:02 <nortti> mromanb: foo
14:22:03 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:04 <mroman> He doesn't know how to help ;)
14:22:12 <nortti> mromanb: info
14:22:12 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:15 <fizzie> He's beyond help, it almost seems.
14:22:15 <nortti> mromanb: man
14:22:16 <mromanb> [nortti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:22:19 <mroman> There is only bf_cu (brainfuck_cell usage)
14:22:25 <mroman> and stlang (evaluate stlang)
14:22:32 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu +>
14:22:33 <mromanb> Cells used: 2;[0, 1]
14:22:36 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu +><<<
14:22:37 <mromanb> Cells used: 4;[0, 1, 230, 229]
14:23:04 <mroman> mromanb: bf_cu +[>+]
14:23:05 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:23:44 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M ./r(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \
14:23:44 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:23:57 <mroman> readline is not available of course :)
14:24:31 <fizzie> mromanb: bf_cu ++++++[->++++++<]>[[->+<]>-]
14:24:32 <mromanb> Cells used: 38;[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37]
14:25:36 <fizzie> mromanb: bf_cu -[>+]
14:25:37 <mromanb> Cells used: 231;[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 1
14:25:54 <mroman> 231 is max cells :)
14:26:00 <fizzie> So it seems.
14:26:23 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M '0 .(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \
14:26:23 <mromanb> [mroman] []
14:26:27 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M '1 .(i1=={{.$?0}{.1(i@}.0U}{.0(i@}? \
14:27:05 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:27:07 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:27:56 <kallisti> `load Echo
14:27:59 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
14:28:02 <kallisti> $load Echo
14:28:02 <rolebot> Echo failed to load.
14:28:16 <kallisti> $load Echo
14:28:16 <rolebot> Done.
14:28:25 <kallisti> $echo Behold, advanced IRC bot technology!
14:28:25 <rolebot> Behold, advanced IRC bot technology!
14:28:53 <nortti> $echo #echo !echo foo
14:28:54 <rolebot> #echo !echo foo
14:28:54 <oonbotti> !echo foo
14:28:55 <EgoBot> foo
14:29:11 <Gregor> AND YET
14:29:13 <Gregor> !echo #echo foo
14:29:14 <EgoBot> ​#echo foo
14:29:37 <kallisti> #echo $echo #echo
14:29:37 <oonbotti> $echo #echo
14:29:41 <kallisti> ALSO YET
14:34:17 <kallisti> $hlurp
14:34:20 <kallisti> $hlep
14:34:21 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
14:34:24 <kallisti> more lambdabot clonage
14:36:03 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:36:08 <mroman> mromanb: help
14:36:08 <mromanb> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang)
14:36:08 <mromanb> bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 231; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000
14:36:41 <kallisti> bf_cu
14:36:45 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu
14:36:45 <mromanb> [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:37:16 <mroman> He needs a program, of course ;)
14:37:24 <kallisti> what is "brainfuck cell usage"?
14:37:37 <mroman> Well, cell usage of brainfuck programs?
14:37:46 <kallisti> what is cell usage
14:37:51 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu ,[.,]
14:37:51 <mromanb> Cells used: 1;[0]
14:37:52 <mroman> How many cells it uses.
14:37:54 <kallisti> oh
14:37:57 <kallisti> ...yes.
14:38:15 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +[>+]
14:38:16 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:38:54 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con .0(i \ cC M '0 N \
14:38:54 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073bac>]
14:39:05 <mroman> huh.
14:39:05 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+]
14:39:05 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:39:12 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+<]
14:39:12 <mromanb> Cells used: 2;[0, 1]
14:39:27 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+>+<]
14:39:27 <mromanb> Timeout!
14:39:30 <kallisti> mromanb: bf_cu +++++++++++[->+>+<<]
14:39:31 <mromanb> Cells used: 3;[0, 1, 2]
14:40:08 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \
14:40:08 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073bcc>]
14:40:16 <mroman> Hm.
14:40:22 <mroman> Object functions have their own stack o_O
14:40:33 <mroman> I forget.
14:40:42 <kallisti> mromanb: stlang 2 2 +
14:40:42 <mromanb> [kallisti] None
14:40:55 <kallisti> pssssh
14:41:17 <kallisti> what kind of production-ready real world esolang doesn't have a sandbox mode?
14:42:03 <kallisti> so frink wasn't working until I removed ulimits from it. Any idea why that would be?
14:42:20 <kallisti> $load Frink
14:42:20 <rolebot> Done.
14:42:22 <kallisti> $frink 2 + 2
14:42:39 <kallisti> /home/adam/bin/frink: line 30: 10284 Killed $java $flags -classpath $jar frink.gui.FrinkStarter "$@"
14:42:45 <kallisti> I guess it's exceeding the ulimits?
14:42:53 <kallisti> that sounds unlikely.
14:43:08 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con ##DEBUG_ON## .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \
14:43:09 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073c2c>]
14:43:20 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:44:01 -!- edwardk has joined.
14:44:16 <mroman> Looks like a bug to me o_O
14:44:20 -!- rolebot has joined.
14:44:32 <kallisti> mromanb: where? what?
14:44:32 <mromanb> [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:44:54 <kallisti> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con ##DEBUG_ON## .0(i 0 8 \ cC M '0 N \
14:44:54 <rolebot> kallisti: You have 2 messages. Type ~messages to read them.
14:44:54 <mromanb> [kallisti] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9073b8c>]
14:45:47 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:45:55 <mroman> object functions should return values as well
14:46:18 <Gregor> kallisti: It's Java, of course it's exceeding its ulimits.
14:46:40 <kallisti> my $max_memory = 100000; #in kilobytes
14:46:43 <kallisti> my $max_time = 5; #in seconds
14:46:45 <kallisti> ......
14:47:05 <Gregor> Java will immediately claim ~1G
14:47:15 <Gregor> This is how GC works.
14:47:17 <kallisti> it hasn't in the past.
14:47:18 <mroman> oh.
14:47:21 <mroman> it's not a bug
14:47:30 <mroman> constructors can't return values :)
14:47:31 <Gregor> kallisti: Yes, it has.
14:47:53 <kallisti> I mean.. I've used this same setup for a while and I haven't had problems.
14:48:02 <Gregor> $frink 3 + 3
14:48:04 <rolebot> 6
14:48:08 <Gregor> $frink 2 + 2
14:48:14 <Gregor> Or maybe it's nondet X-D
14:48:29 <kallisti> `load Frink
14:48:32 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
14:48:33 <kallisti> bah
14:48:39 <kallisti> $laod Frink
14:48:40 <rolebot> Done.
14:48:47 -!- mromanb has joined.
14:48:49 <kallisti> $fronk 2 + 2
14:48:55 <kallisti> I set it to 2 GBs
14:49:06 <Gregor> Frink frank fronk.
14:49:28 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo \
14:49:29 <mromanb> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9f78bcc>, 0.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9f78bcc>]
14:49:29 <kallisti> it's entirely possible that my code is broken and I don't know what I'm doing.
14:50:15 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/XVYb?perl
14:50:32 <Gregor> $frink 2 + 2
14:50:34 <rolebot> 4
14:50:36 <Gregor> kallisti: FRINK FRANK FRONK
14:50:47 <kallisti> $frank 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:50:58 <kallisti> y u so slow.
14:51:02 <kallisti> probably ulimited
14:51:10 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ \
14:51:10 <mromanb> [mroman] ['<stdout> 0.0']
14:51:18 <kallisti> 0.0
14:52:08 <kallisti> Gregor: it's even doing the Java server thing to speed up load time.
14:52:24 <Gregor> $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:52:28 <kallisti> $road Frink
14:52:29 <rolebot> Perhaps you meant: load roll
14:52:33 <kallisti> $load Frink
14:52:33 <rolebot> Done.
14:52:35 <Gregor> $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:52:38 <rolebot> 48.51380458194634815
14:52:40 <kallisti> I adjusted the max time
14:52:43 <kallisti> to 8 seconds
14:52:44 <kallisti> from 5
14:52:46 <Gregor> $frink 500 euros -> dollars_1945
14:52:49 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ # ;l @\
14:52:49 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:52:50 <rolebot> 48.527902878402193068
14:52:58 <mroman> mromanb: stlang Cc 0 fn con \ fn foo .0 \ cC M '0 N foo $ <> $ @ # ;l @ \
14:52:59 <mromanb> [mroman] ['<', 's', 't', 'd', 'o', 'u', 't', '>', ' ', '0', '.', "<stdout> '0'"]
14:53:55 <kallisti> $frink 1 million euros -> dollars_1945
14:53:59 <rolebot> 97055.805756804386137
14:54:03 <kallisti> hurray inflation
14:54:26 <kallisti> I think it also has historic great british currency but I don't remember the names
14:54:36 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 2 2 + \
14:54:37 <mromanb> [mroman] [4.0]
14:54:44 <mroman> btw ;). You need a main function.
14:54:56 <mroman> mromanb: stlang fn main 2 2 + efn
14:54:57 <mromanb> [mroman] [4.0]
14:55:01 <kallisti> mroman: stlang M 2 2 + \
14:55:04 <itidus21> $frink 100 aud -> 100 usd
14:55:07 <rolebot> Warning: undefined symbol "aud".
14:55:07 <rolebot> ..Warning: undefined symbol "usd".
14:55:14 <itidus21> ok tough one to word
14:55:16 <kallisti> $frink ?AUD
14:55:18 <rolebot> [AUD, Saudi_Arabia_Riyal, Saudi_Arabia_currency, Saudi_Arabia]
14:55:19 <mroman> mromanb: M 2 2 + ! \
14:55:19 <mromanb> [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't.
14:55:23 <kallisti> itidus21: no it's just case sensitive
14:55:24 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 2 2 + ! \
14:55:25 <mromanb> [mroman] [24]
14:55:34 <kallisti> $frink 100 AUD -> USD
14:55:37 <rolebot> 102.869
14:55:48 <kallisti> $frink 100 AUD -> 100 USD
14:55:51 <rolebot> 1.02869
14:56:08 <itidus21> $frink 100 AUD -> CAD
14:56:09 <kallisti> 100 AUD -> 100 USD is just... AUD -> USD
14:56:11 <rolebot> 104.25530621056194853
14:56:22 <itidus21> kallisti: yeah that was me not thinking
14:56:41 <kallisti> mroman: stlang M 2 2 4 + + \
14:56:43 <itidus21> $frink Australia
14:56:46 <rolebot> 1.02866 dollar (currency)
14:56:52 <mroman> mromanb: stlang M 2 2 4 + + \
14:56:53 <mromanb> [mroman] [8.0]
14:57:05 <kallisti> mroman: was that network lag or program lag? :P
14:57:08 <itidus21> yay for .au
14:57:14 <mroman> kallisti: You have to use mromanb:
14:57:17 <mroman> not mroman:
14:57:18 <mroman> ;)
14:57:29 <kallisti> change your name.
14:57:35 <kallisti> my tab complete is infallible.
14:57:54 <mroman> mromanb: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop eclass M 'Foo new &bar \
14:57:54 <mromanb> [mroman] None
14:57:57 <mroman> damn.
14:58:06 <mroman> mromanb: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop eclass M 'Foo new \
14:58:06 <mromanb> [mroman] None
14:58:12 <mroman> hm.
14:58:19 <mroman> mromanb: stlang cls Foo prop bar 'Hello eprop ecls M 'Foo new \
14:58:20 <mromanb> [mroman] Your program sucks!
14:58:22 <itidus21> $frink 100 AUD -> euro
14:58:25 <rolebot> 83.020299447112474272
14:58:35 <itidus21> $frink 100 USD -> euro
14:58:35 <mroman> oh
14:58:38 <rolebot> 80.713507405464304451
14:58:44 <mroman> prop does not work that way.
14:59:04 -!- Taneb has joined.
14:59:06 <itidus21> $frink 100 AUD -> GBP
14:59:09 <rolebot> 66.238908992569507939
14:59:12 <Taneb> Hello
14:59:13 <itidus21> bastards
14:59:17 <kallisti> so it's Haskell: OO stack-based edition? (wait that doesn't make any sense)
14:59:17 <mroman> I can't send newlines over IRC sadly :(
14:59:25 <mroman> or can I!!!
14:59:28 -!- mromanb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:59:41 <Taneb> itidus21, GBP is the currency with the most valuable primary unit IN THE WORLD
14:59:47 <Taneb> Ever since Malta joined the Euro
14:59:58 <Taneb> Hang on
15:00:01 <Taneb> rolebot?
15:00:01 <kallisti> stlang is a lot like glass.
15:00:08 <kallisti> that's mine.
15:00:08 -!- stlangbot has joined.
15:00:12 <Taneb> :)
15:00:16 <Taneb> stlangbot!?
15:00:25 <itidus21> mroman: stlang 2 2 4 + + \
15:00:37 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new \
15:00:38 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
15:00:45 <itidus21> i kid. i kid.
15:00:50 <kallisti> originally it was intended to facillitate playing tabletop games over IRC, but that quickly died out and now it's mostly a lambdabot clone with some stuff from
15:00:56 <kallisti> #esoteric bots that I wanted to use in other channels.
15:00:56 <oonbotti> Nothing here
15:00:57 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:01:20 -!- stlangbot has joined.
15:01:22 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new \
15:01:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dbb30c>]
15:01:25 <mroman> ah
15:01:26 <mroman> better.
15:01:30 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass M 'Foo new &bar \
15:01:31 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dbb1ec>, 'Hello']
15:01:36 <kallisti> mroman: what's the implemntation language?
15:01:41 <mroman> Python ;)
15:01:47 <Taneb> There's loads of bots here
15:01:52 <itidus21> Malta sounds tasty.. like malt
15:01:57 <Taneb> Is clog a bot?
15:02:01 <kallisti> yes.
15:02:13 <mroman> I don't know Glass.
15:02:32 <kallisti> mroman: it's another stack based OO esolang.
15:02:39 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo prop bar 'Hello #NL# eclass class X eclass inherit X Foo M 'X new &bar \
15:02:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dbb12c>, 'Hello']
15:02:42 <Taneb> Okay, there's clog, fungot, glogbot, HackEgo, half of myndzi, oonbotti, rolebot, stlangbot...
15:02:42 <kallisti> not functional though.
15:02:43 <fungot> Taneb: the extra performance helped it find better paths down a tree of characters, treats all 01 chars as bits and prints out the message.
15:02:52 <Taneb> That's 7.5 bots!
15:02:59 <Taneb> > 63/7.5
15:03:00 <lambdabot> 8.4
15:03:05 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn \o/{100 >}{2 *}2 -> @ efn
15:03:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> 128.0']
15:03:06 <myndzi> |
15:03:06 <myndzi> /<
15:03:18 <Taneb> Hehe
15:03:19 <mroman> Mine is not really functional too.
15:03:20 <Taneb> > 63/7.5
15:03:22 <lambdabot> 8.4
15:03:26 <mroman> But you can use lambda expressions
15:03:29 <Taneb> > 7.5/63
15:03:30 <nortti> yeah. 8.4 percent of us are bots
15:03:30 <lambdabot> 0.11904761904761904
15:03:34 <Taneb> FINALLY GOT THAT RIGHT
15:03:43 <Taneb> We're Almost 12% bots
15:03:54 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {'0 @} call \
15:03:55 <stlangbot> [mroman] ["<stdout> '0'"]
15:03:55 <kallisti> !glass {M[m(_o)O!"Hello World!"(_o)o.?]}
15:03:55 <EgoBot> Hello World!
15:04:17 <kallisti> stlangbot: to do anything you have to instantiate a class.
15:04:17 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Only you can understand you. I don't.
15:04:21 <kallisti> er mroman
15:04:24 <nortti> mroman: what is the name and command prefix of your bot?
15:04:37 <mroman> nortti: stlangbot
15:04:39 <mroman> stlangbot: help
15:04:40 <stlangbot> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang)
15:04:40 <stlangbot> bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 231; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000
15:05:03 <mroman> kallisti: Stlang doesn't require that @instantiate objects.
15:05:07 <Gregor> `echo I am the official bot of #esoteric, and thou shall have no bot before me.
15:05:09 <mroman> but you can ;)
15:05:09 <HackEgo> I am the official bot of #esoteric, and thou shall have no bot before me.
15:05:14 <kallisti> nortti's bot loop addiction progresses in severity..
15:05:21 <nortti> :P no
15:05:32 <Taneb> With all these bots, there's got to be an awful botloop somewhere...
15:05:41 <nortti> I can creare one bot botloop any time I want
15:05:42 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class A eclass class B eclass inherit A B inherit B A M 'A new @ B' new @ \
15:05:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
15:05:45 <itidus21> Currently, Malta's major resources are limestone, a favourable geographic location and a strong export market of washed up comedians.
15:05:52 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class A eclass class B eclass inherit A B inherit B A M 'A new @ 'B new @ \
15:05:52 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>', '<stdout> <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>']
15:06:04 <Taneb> nortti, create one using four bots, one of them twice
15:06:10 <nortti> hmm
15:06:26 <mroman> Objects are very weird in Stlang
15:06:37 <mroman> new instantiates the object on top of the stack
15:06:45 <mroman> and if you use a function that is not in global scope
15:06:52 <mroman> it checks if the top object on the stack is an object
15:06:55 <kallisti> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_a)A!22(_a)a.?(_o)(on).?]}
15:06:56 <EgoBot> 0
15:07:01 <mroman> and looks in the objects scope if such a function exists.
15:07:21 <kallisti> !glass {M[m(_o)O!(_a)A!<2><2>(_a)a.?(_o)(on).?]}
15:07:22 <EgoBot> 4
15:07:29 <kallisti> that's a "print 2 + 2" program
15:07:37 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class A fn A 0 \ eclass class B fn B 1 \ eclass M 'A new A \
15:07:38 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>, 0.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e6c>]
15:07:39 <kallisti> you have to instantiate the arithmetic and output classes
15:08:07 <mroman> and after every object call the object remains on top of the stack :D
15:08:26 <mroman> kallisti: Can you define classes in Glass?
15:08:29 <kallisti> yes
15:08:34 <mroman> with inheritance?
15:08:36 <kallisti> {M...} is the main class
15:08:40 <kallisti> don't believe so.
15:08:47 <kallisti> [m...] is the main method
15:09:01 <kallisti> for names that are larger than one character you have to enclose them in parens.
15:09:17 <kallisti> thus (_o) and (_a)
15:10:11 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ add \
15:10:11 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:10:15 <kallisti> (_o)O! is "drop the variable _o on the stack, drop the variable O on the stack, instantiate an instance of O in the variable _o"
15:10:23 <itidus21> give or take arbitrarily, glass also supports multiple inheritance, virtual functions, templates, and operator overloading
15:10:35 <kallisti> which pops both values off the stack
15:10:48 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ add \
15:10:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:10:50 <kallisti> itidus21: no it doesn't
15:11:11 <kallisti> you're not allowed to lie.
15:11:11 <itidus21> well you just have to take everything i said away
15:11:23 <itidus21> hence "give or take arbitrarily"
15:11:39 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 \
15:11:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2eec>, 2.0, 3.0]
15:11:45 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 ^^ \
15:11:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:11:50 <mroman> what the.
15:11:51 <kallisti> mroman: Glass is intended to be obnoxious and annoying, whereas I think you're actually going for usability with stlang.
15:12:00 <kallisti> ??
15:12:35 <kallisti> or at least, I assume that's what Gregor had in mind.
15:12:50 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:12:51 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:12:53 <kallisti> unless he really just loves extreme OO with postfix notation.
15:12:54 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that \
15:12:55 <stlangbot> [mroman] [2.0, 3.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2e8c>]
15:12:59 <itidus21> im trying to point out it would be funny if glass did infact feature things c++ prides itself on
15:13:03 <nortti> stlang seems kinda like underload. esoteric but usable stack based language
15:13:04 <Gregor> Glass is not intended to be a good language :)
15:13:07 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add $ \
15:13:07 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:10 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:13:11 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:23 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add $ + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:13:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:36 <kallisti> Gregor: it has struck a chord in my heartplaces for some reason. :>
15:13:45 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that add \
15:13:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:13:52 <itidus21> i like the human quality of stlang's interpreter feedback
15:14:16 <kallisti> mroman: no efn
15:14:18 <kallisti> it looks like
15:14:27 <mroman> a single \ is efn
15:14:31 <kallisti> ah
15:14:40 <kallisti> I thought that was print to stdout
15:14:40 <mroman> the problem is add
15:14:45 <kallisti> based on the earlier 2 + 2 code
15:14:45 <mroman> @ is print to stdout
15:14:51 <mroman> M is 'fn main'
15:15:01 <kallisti> right, so anything returned by main is printed
15:15:02 <kallisti> got it.
15:15:03 <mroman> M \ is fn main efn
15:15:12 <mroman> stlangbot returns the stack.
15:15:34 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new that add \
15:15:35 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:15:43 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn add 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new add \
15:15:44 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:15:47 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 \
15:15:47 <stlangbot> [kallisti] [2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0, 2.0]
15:15:56 <kallisti> ewwwwww Python
15:16:05 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn foo 5 \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new foo \
15:16:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2f2c>, 5.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x9dc2f2c>]
15:16:16 <kallisti> mroman: your stlang output has a Python smell. :P
15:16:19 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Arith fn foo $ + \ eclass M ##DEBUG_ON## 'Arith new 2 3 that foo $ \
15:16:20 <stlangbot> [mroman] [5.0]
15:16:23 <mroman> ha!
15:16:27 <mroman> it worked.
15:16:34 <mroman> apparently add is already defined in the global scope.
15:16:44 <kallisti> ...yes?
15:16:49 <kallisti> it's a synonym for + I thought
15:16:57 <mroman> + is a synonym for +
15:17:00 <mroman> eh
15:17:04 <mroman> + is a synonym for add.
15:17:33 <mroman> And different functions have different synonyms based on context.
15:17:42 <mroman> In golfing mode the synonyms are different :)
15:17:43 <mroman> like
15:17:51 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 / \
15:17:51 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.6666666666666667]
15:17:53 <kallisti> mroman: you should add perl-like contexts into this language somehow
15:17:54 <kallisti> for great fun
15:17:56 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 .// \
15:17:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.6666666666666667]
15:18:17 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 .///v \
15:18:18 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.2909944487358056]
15:18:21 <mroman> vs
15:18:26 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 3 / /v \
15:18:27 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.2909944487358056]
15:18:35 <mroman> . enters the golfing mode
15:18:47 <mroman> which allows to chain function without whitespace
15:19:10 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; [.] \
15:19:11 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['H;e;l;l;o;']
15:19:32 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l \
15:19:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] [10]
15:19:56 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l=! \
15:19:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:20:14 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(f \
15:20:14 <stlangbot> [mroman] [10.0]
15:20:18 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(i \
15:20:19 <stlangbot> [mroman] [10]
15:20:21 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello '; .[.l(s \
15:20:21 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['10']
15:20:55 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {zZ}'Hello m \
15:20:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['HELLO']
15:21:01 <kallisti> what is ?
15:21:16 <mroman> it's an if
15:21:52 <kallisti> why is there an if in the pattern matching example
15:22:06 <mroman> oh
15:22:10 <mroman> '?' is an if
15:22:12 <mroman> ?1 is true
15:22:13 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: . ? @ v
15:22:19 <kallisti> oh okay
15:22:30 <kallisti> how would I match anything?
15:22:30 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M ?1 \
15:22:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] [True]
15:22:33 <kallisti> just define a regular function?
15:22:56 <mroman> You can't match 'anything'
15:23:27 <kallisti> so there's no "match 0, match everything else" pattern matching?
15:23:35 <mroman> stlangbot: fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M [] @ \
15:23:36 <stlangbot> [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't.
15:23:42 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M [] @ \
15:23:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:23:53 <kallisti> right
15:23:57 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:[] ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn
15:23:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:24:05 <kallisti> so you can match everything else by having a function without a : thingy
15:24:11 <mroman> kallisti: yes.
15:24:16 <kallisti> which is what I meant
15:24:19 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:0 ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M 0 @ \
15:24:20 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:24:26 <mroman> but I'm not sure about the syntax right now :)
15:24:39 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty:0#NL# ?1 efn fn empty ?0 efn M 0 @ \
15:24:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:25:09 <kallisti> mroman: stack is global right?
15:25:23 -!- Vorpal has joined.
15:25:30 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn fn isZero ?0 efn M 0 @ \
15:25:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:25:37 <mroman> kallisti: Yes.
15:25:44 <mroman> Stack is global.
15:25:55 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 M 0 @ \
15:25:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:26:02 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:26:03 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> 0.0']
15:26:06 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:26:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:26:15 <mroman> it might be that pattern matching requires a newline
15:26:23 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0#NL# ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:26:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:27:10 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn isZero:0 ?1 efn M 0 @ \
15:27:10 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:27:11 <mroman> ah no
15:27:17 <mroman> you need to define the one without pattern first.
15:27:32 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M [] \
15:27:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[]]
15:27:41 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M [] empty \
15:27:42 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[], True]
15:27:45 <kallisti> mromanb: stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:27:48 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn empty ?0 efn fn empty:[] ?1 efn M 'a empty \
15:27:48 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['a', False]
15:28:00 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:28:01 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
15:28:03 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:28:03 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:28:10 <mroman> kallisti: You need to define fib first.
15:28:21 <mroman> fn foo:0 efn fn foo efn is illegal
15:28:25 <kallisti> weird
15:28:28 <mroman> fn foo efn fn foo:0 efn is legal.
15:28:33 <kallisti> YOU MEAN TO SAY THIS IS NOT HASKELL?
15:29:15 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib 2 - fib + \ fn fib:0 0 \ M 5 fib \
15:29:38 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:30:04 <kallisti> ah I see
15:30:13 <kallisti> I'm not sure how to do that recursively with a global stack
15:31:14 <kallisti> mroman: how do I push elements onto the stack by index?
15:31:31 <mroman> kallisti: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang#Others
15:31:35 <mroman> there is a fib version ;)
15:31:48 <kallisti> NOPE
15:31:49 <kallisti> CHEATING
15:31:50 <mroman> and I have to go now, sorry.
15:32:02 <mroman> kallisti: There is a function 'top'
15:32:06 <mroman> which lets you do that.
15:33:30 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1 1 \ fib:0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:33:30 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:34:07 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
15:34:56 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1.0 1 \ fib:0.0 0 \ fn ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:34:57 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:35:02 <kallisti> stlangbot: stlang fn fib:1.0 1 \ fib:0.0 0 \ fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \
15:35:02 <stlangbot> [kallisti] Your program sucks!
15:36:06 <kallisti> the " is unexplained in the docs
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15:48:18 <Taneb> Possibility is a monad, definition is a comonad
15:49:31 <Taneb> Disjunction is a monad, conjunction is a comonad
15:50:44 <kallisti> all things are one under the cofree monad free comonad in outer space.
15:52:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Has kallisti turned off that URL title spewer?
15:52:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://example.com
15:53:00 <rolebot> IANA — Example domains
15:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, please turn that off.
15:55:21 <Taneb> google.com
15:55:28 <Taneb> http://google.com
15:55:34 <Taneb> :?
15:56:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't work with Google.
15:56:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately, it does work with most other things.
15:56:38 <Taneb> http://www.vandoorn.talktalk.net/esoteric
15:56:40 <rolebot> Taneb's Esolang Page!
16:13:46 <kallisti> http://facebook.com/
16:14:01 <Phantom_Hoover> http://example.com
16:14:47 <rolebot> IANA — Example domains
16:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, seriously, turn that off, it's useless and annoying.
16:15:36 <Taneb> Note to self: when introducing others to the joy of the collatz conjecture, don't start with 27
16:15:58 <kallisti> I'm in the process of making it less annoying
16:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> How.
16:16:08 <kallisti> and more useful.
16:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Again, how.
16:16:23 <kallisti> well, before it would check each word in the title and see if it's already in the URL. if they're all in the URL, it ignores it.
16:16:27 <kallisti> now I've added a list of stop words.
16:16:29 <kallisti> that it also ignores
16:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope, that's still annoying and not very useful.
16:17:02 <Gregor> http://purdue.edu/
16:17:03 <rolebot> Purdue University
16:17:09 <kallisti> lol
16:17:33 <Gregor> http://weirdfetishisticporn.com/
16:17:39 <Gregor> ...
16:17:40 <Gregor> :(
16:17:44 <kallisti> I must now click
16:17:49 <Taneb> RESIST
16:18:08 <Gregor> http://mylittleclopfic.com/
16:18:21 <Gregor> Damn it rolebot, work with me here.
16:21:03 <kallisti> http://facebook/
16:21:07 <kallisti> http://facebook.com/
16:21:16 <kallisti> it blocks facebook now because all of the other title stuff is just garbage.
16:21:22 <kallisti> http://youtube.com/
16:21:30 <Gregor> http://127.0.0.1/
16:21:34 <kallisti> also it's really slow.
16:21:36 <kallisti> now
16:21:38 <Gregor> lol
16:21:47 <kallisti> hurray perl
16:21:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay, for a while you can pretend it's turned off.
16:22:09 <rolebot> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
16:22:13 <kallisti> >_>
16:22:21 <kallisti> however, youtube has "broadcast"
16:22:25 <kallisti> which is NEW INFORMATION YOU DID NOT PREVIOUSLY KNOW
16:22:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so it helpfully filters out any titles which are *identical* to the URL?
16:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> THAT IS FAR BETTER
16:23:21 <kallisti> it also ignores the stop words. which I got from here http://www.webconfs.com/stop-words.php/
16:23:25 <Gregor> http://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+build+a+bomb+terrorism+allah+akhbar+all+glory+to+osama+hello+fbi
16:23:47 <kallisti> I have no idea why it's taking so long to traverse the stop word list...
16:23:54 <kallisti> it's not very big
16:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't want to be a part of this idiocy.
16:25:31 * kallisti likes to see whether he should click on something or not.
16:25:50 <kallisti> by having one program do it instead of all of our browsers
16:25:53 <kallisti> we are actually saving the environment
16:25:57 <kallisti> by using less energy.
16:26:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And so you think that making a bot to announce the page title in the channel whenever anyone posts a URL is going to help?
16:26:25 <kallisti> the environment? of course.
16:26:32 <kallisti> anyone who disagrees does not care about mother earth.
16:26:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Is going to be anything but a waste of time?
16:27:06 <kallisti> well, I'm not /making/ it
16:27:09 <kallisti> it's already made, after all.
16:27:29 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: You realize that this is an EXTREMELY common bot feature and there's a bot that does this in most large channels?
16:27:41 <Gregor> Well, perhaps not "most"
16:27:44 <kallisti> oh duh I should use a hash table.
16:27:45 <Gregor> But "many"
16:27:47 <kallisti> instead of an array
16:28:21 * kallisti am good with computer.
16:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, sure, but it's annoying.
16:28:41 <Gregor> Now, this could get annoying: http://codu.org/music/#\o/
16:28:41 <myndzi> |
16:28:41 <myndzi> |\
16:28:42 <rolebot> Codu - Gregor's Music
16:28:45 <kallisti> lol
16:29:18 <Gregor> `echo I SHALL CREATE CHAOS http://codu.org/music#\o/
16:29:18 <myndzi> |
16:29:18 <myndzi> >\
16:29:19 <rolebot> Codu - Gregor's Music
16:29:20 <HackEgo> I SHALL CREATE CHAOS http://codu.org/music#\o/
16:29:21 <myndzi> |
16:29:21 <myndzi> /<
16:29:21 <rolebot> Codu - Gregor's Music
16:29:36 <kallisti> `load Url
16:29:38 <kallisti> $load Url
16:29:38 <rolebot> Url failed to load.
16:29:39 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
16:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, you don't have Superturing on that page or your WiPs :(
16:29:44 <kallisti> http://codu.org/music
16:29:52 <kallisti> possessives: handled
16:30:00 <Gregor> kallisti: ... why is "Gregor" filtered?
16:30:10 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Superturing is linked in "electronic music", and there are no current WIPPs.
16:30:15 <kallisti> Gregor: oh, this is a good question.
16:30:34 <Phantom_Hoover> yes!!!!
16:30:37 <kallisti> probably because of a bug in the code I just added.
16:30:39 <kallisti> yep.
16:30:46 <kallisti> `load Url
16:30:48 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
16:30:51 <Gregor> A bug named Gregor.
16:30:52 <kallisti> qeiorhwiurthiouwerhiuerhtiuwreutiherh
16:30:55 <kallisti> $load Url
16:30:55 <Gregor> GET IT?
16:30:55 <rolebot> Url failed to load.
16:30:57 <Gregor> GET IT?
16:31:02 <kallisti> no
16:31:03 <kallisti> yes
16:31:12 <Gregor> KAFKA JOKE???
16:31:27 <kallisti> wot
16:32:22 <kallisti> over time I will gradually accumulate a list of every annoying word in HTML titles ever.
16:32:31 <kallisti> a valuable resource.
16:33:46 <Gregor> I can build that list for you easily:
16:33:49 <Gregor> [^ ]+
16:34:04 <kallisti> what would probably be a better approach
16:34:07 <kallisti> is to just whitelist domains.
16:34:15 <kallisti> because it's mostly useful for youtube and URL shorteners
16:34:22 <kallisti> and things like that
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16:58:28 <kallisti> Gregor: having used this URL thing for a while, I've found a large portion of HTML titles contain all of the information their URLs do.
16:58:31 <kallisti> and nothing more
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17:56:55 <Gregor> Um, wow.
17:57:03 <Gregor> Just discovered that Purdue lets you specify an alternate email address.
17:57:08 <Gregor> I was gkrichar@, which is shit.
17:57:11 <Gregor> Now I'm gr@.
17:57:15 <Gregor> That's... pretty awesome.
18:04:12 <olsner> you should've added some more r's, grrrr
18:04:29 <olsner> and gkr is almost gkar
18:05:26 <Gregor> gregor@ was reserved, which is tragic since that's actually better than gr@.
18:06:12 <fizzie> How about just greg@?
18:09:21 <Gregor> Considering that I get snotty every time somebody calls me 'Greg', that sounds like a bad idea.
18:11:02 <nortti> hi Greg
18:15:41 <fizzie> g-man@.
18:17:08 <Gregor> fizzie: Good– morning, Mr. Freeman, wake up and– smell the SCIENCE!
18:42:53 <nortti> can someone explain to me how I set up qemu so that the quest netbsd machine can connect to my lan?
18:48:33 <kallisti> gooling for "quest netbsd machine" yields nothing that seems relevant.
18:48:39 <kallisti> *googling
18:50:20 <nortti> yeah. problem is that I can't get qemu to create simulated network card that is connected to my lan
18:51:46 <kallisti> you would need to know the name of the virtual network device thingy that qemu needs
18:51:53 <Gregor> Define "connect to"? Is there a reason it needs an actual IP address on the LAN?
18:53:53 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:53:54 <kallisti> if you're doing user-mode networking you'd also want to do some iptables hacks so that it can listen on privileged ports.
18:54:16 <Gregor> I think you'd have to use -net tap and then convince the Tun/Tap layer to act as a hub.
18:54:33 <Gregor> But more to the point, I find the situation where this is actually useful to be unlikely.
18:59:44 <olsner> I think you can set up ethernet bridges with the right config
18:59:49 <olsner> (essentially, set your network card to promiscuous and send data from several mac addresses corresponding to your real and virtual system)
19:00:08 <olsner> it's not supposed to be hard and as I understand it is fairly common
19:02:59 <olsner> nortti: tl;dr: configure your system to do that and it will do it
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19:20:38 <mroman> kallisti: No success with fib?
19:21:23 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 5 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \
19:21:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] [5.0]
19:21:43 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 8 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \
19:21:44 <stlangbot> [mroman] [21.0]
19:21:49 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 9 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \
19:21:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] [34.0]
19:21:54 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn fib ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + \ M 7 fib \ fn fib:1.0 \ fn fib:0.0 \
19:21:55 <stlangbot> [mroman] [13.0]
19:22:04 <mroman> kallisti: I suspect you wanted this ;)
19:22:57 <mroman> 17:36 < kallisti> the " is unexplained in the docs
19:23:16 <mroman> A lot of stuff is not documented right now :)
19:23:29 <mroman> and " is not a function.
19:25:40 <mroman> " is replaced with the name of the function it appears in.
19:26:41 <nortti> Gregor: by "connect to" I meant that it can send data trought my lan
19:27:07 <mroman> ++ is duplicate. And <+ is also duplicate
19:27:21 <mroman> ++ 1 - fib <> 2 - fib + is the same as using golfing mode
19:27:26 <mroman> .<+1-"<>2-"+
19:27:28 <Gregor> nortti: Even usermode networking accomplishes that. If you don't need it to have a LAN IP, don't overcomplicate things.
19:27:44 <mroman> ++ does not work in golfing mode.
19:28:50 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Zz 'Hello m \
19:28:51 <stlangbot> [mroman] []
19:29:02 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'zZ 'Hello m \
19:29:02 <stlangbot> [mroman] []
19:29:07 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {zZ} 'Hello m \
19:29:08 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['HELLO']
19:29:26 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M{Zz}'Hello m \
19:29:26 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['hello']
19:29:40 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M{Z?}'Hello m \
19:29:41 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
19:29:59 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'H Z? \
19:30:00 <stlangbot> [mroman] [True]
19:30:03 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Ha Z? \
19:30:03 <stlangbot> [mroman] [False]
19:30:20 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {Z?} 'Hello m \
19:30:20 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
19:30:56 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {Z?} 'Hello m @ \
19:30:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
19:31:04 <mroman> that is interesting.
19:31:41 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello zZZz @ \
19:31:42 <stlangbot> [mroman] ["<stdout> 'hELLO'"]
19:31:47 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello zZZz \
19:31:48 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['hELLO']
19:33:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:33:46 <Taneb> Hello
19:34:02 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {Z? (s)} 'Hello m @ \
19:34:02 <stlangbot> [mroman] ["<stdout> 'TrueFalseFalseFalseFalse'"]
19:34:10 <mroman> Ah.
19:34:25 <mroman> That was my ugly workaround because python can't treat strings as lists :)
19:34:38 <mroman> well... the workaround sucks. I can see that now.
19:35:47 <mroman> at least for map it sucks.
19:35:57 <mroman> It can concatenate booleans of course.
19:36:00 <mroman> *can't
19:36:31 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {Z?} 'Hello,World! partition \
19:36:32 <stlangbot> [mroman] [('HW', 'ello,orld!')]
19:37:35 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {add} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition zipWith \
19:37:36 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
19:37:50 -!- VorpalPhone has joined.
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19:38:51 <mroman> I should add a function 'unpairWith' :)
19:39:42 <mroman> > let unpairWith f (a,b) = f a b in unpairWith (++) ('HW','ello,orld!')
19:39:43 <lambdabot> <no location info>:
19:39:43 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at chara...
19:39:51 <mroman> > let unpairWith f (a,b) = f a b in unpairWith (++) ("HW","ello,orld!")
19:39:54 <lambdabot> "HWello,orld!"
19:40:35 <mroman> stlangbot: die
19:40:36 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
19:40:47 <oerjan> :t curry
19:40:49 <lambdabot> forall a b c. ((a, b) -> c) -> a -> b -> c
19:40:52 <oerjan> *cough*
19:41:01 <oerjan> or wait
19:41:03 <mroman> uncurry
19:41:04 <oerjan> :t uncurry
19:41:06 <lambdabot> forall a b c. (a -> b -> c) -> (a, b) -> c
19:41:09 <VorpalPhone> What does stlangbot do?
19:41:16 <Taneb> stlangbot: help
19:41:25 <mroman> VorpalPhone: Evaluating stlang expressions ;)
19:41:27 <Taneb> Not that, evidently
19:41:42 <mroman> Taneb: I told him "die" 1 minute ago ;)
19:41:43 <VorpalPhone> Or what did it do rather?
19:41:46 <mroman> To fix the map problem.
19:41:58 <Taneb> Aww
19:41:59 <Taneb> :(
19:42:53 <VorpalPhone> mroman: ^
19:43:20 <VorpalPhone> Which language is stlang?
19:43:24 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:43:26 <mroman> VorpalPhone: Stlang is stlang.
19:43:47 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add \
19:43:48 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['HWello,orld!']
19:43:51 <mroman> hehe :)
19:43:59 <VorpalPhone> Do you have a link to the wiki for it?
19:44:06 <mroman> VorpalPhone: esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang
19:44:12 <mroman> VorpalPhone: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang
19:44:19 <mroman> damn firefox hiding http:// :(
19:44:39 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {Z?}'Hello m \
19:44:39 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[True, False, False, False, False]]
19:44:39 <VorpalPhone> Hmm
19:44:43 <mroman> Ah, there we go.
19:44:57 <VorpalPhone> Thanks
19:44:58 <nortti> mroman: yeah. it can be changed from about:config
19:45:42 <mroman> VorpalPhone: It's a stack based language that also supports OOP.
19:45:53 <VorpalPhone> Ah
19:45:56 <mroman> To support its possible usage in golf every function has aliases.
19:46:00 <mroman> like Z? for isupper
19:46:07 <VorpalPhone> Brb on computer
19:46:40 <Vorpal> hi
19:46:55 <Vorpal> <mroman> damn firefox hiding http:// :( <-- can be fixed in about:config
19:47:02 <Vorpal> trying to remember which setting it was
19:47:29 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} dup 'Hello,World!' partition add map efn
19:47:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
19:47:45 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} dup 'Hello,World!' partition add efn
19:47:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
19:47:56 <Vorpal> nope, not finding it
19:47:57 <mroman> I should add error reporting :D
19:48:12 -!- VorpalPhone has quit (Quit: Bye).
19:48:21 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} \
19:48:21 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['67AD501B84CE923F']
19:48:26 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main {isupper} dup \
19:48:26 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['FB72A30G6589DC1E', 'FB72A30G6589DC1E']
19:48:31 <mroman> so, that should actually work.
19:48:47 <Vorpal> The spirit of Stlang is to implement lots of features in very weird and esoteric ways no other language or sane person would implement them with. <-- e.g. Intercal, malbolge?
19:48:51 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add \
19:48:52 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['HWello,orld!']
19:49:27 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add \
19:49:27 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['E0BF71C9D4G382A5', 'HWello,orld!']
19:49:34 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add map \
19:49:34 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[True, True, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False]]
19:49:44 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {isupper} {isupper} 'Hello,World! partition unpair add map explode \
19:49:44 <stlangbot> [mroman] [True, True, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False, False]
19:49:48 <Vorpal> mroman, hm how high level is this language? Are we talking befunge level?
19:49:57 <mroman> Vorpal: befunge is high level?
19:50:01 <ion> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/602626_10151008148768433_672469651_n.jpg
19:50:07 <Vorpal> mroman, in some respects yes
19:50:23 <mroman> Well, then stlang is high-high-high-high level.
19:50:35 <Vorpal> mroman, it is fairly easy to write things that would be painful in a turing tarpit in befunge
19:50:49 <Vorpal> mroman, okay how easy would it be to write fungot in stlang?
19:50:50 <fungot> Vorpal: well i just fnord the whole r5rs. it'll have the procs that manage the indicies.
19:51:08 <mroman> What's fungot?
19:51:09 <fungot> mroman: but in my case is much larger, there are three other fnord accumulators besides listing: listing-reverse, appending, ' '
19:51:10 <Vorpal> mroman, note that fungot uses SOCK for sockets directly in befunge, using netcat is allowed if you need it
19:51:11 <fungot> Vorpal: there are only four sizes though.) exercise 1.3 says if we feed herrings hotdogs they might come in handy when i find a value in a list
19:51:14 <Vorpal> mroman, that but
19:51:15 <Vorpal> bot
19:51:17 <Vorpal> ^source
19:51:18 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
19:51:25 <Vorpal> there, befunge-98 code for fungot
19:51:26 <fungot> Vorpal: the scheme48 vm is written in
19:51:41 <mroman> Stlang is a very high level language. Except it has only a stack.
19:51:44 <mroman> But besides that.
19:51:55 <mroman> It has OOP, it has pattern matching, it has anonymous functions
19:51:57 <Vorpal> mroman, fizzie wrote it. And at least previously it has been running on my befunge implementation
19:52:21 <mroman> it has functions like tail, head, last, reverse, zipWith, map, reduce, until, takeWhile, dropWhile
19:52:25 <mroman> and many more.
19:52:36 <mroman> It probably has almost every function haskells prelude has.
19:52:52 <Vorpal> mroman, what makes it esoteric then?
19:53:17 <mroman> Its implemented in a way nobody would :)
19:53:22 <Vorpal> okay
19:53:29 <mroman> Well
19:53:37 <mroman> The term "esoteric language" is not very precise.
19:54:05 <mroman> If you compare stlang to brainfuck or befunge it's not very esoteric.
19:54:18 <mroman> It's a fully featured programming language, except it uses a stack instead of variables.
19:54:43 <mroman> and postfix notation.
19:55:13 <Taneb> backwards stackell
19:55:22 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main {1000 gt} {2 mul} 2 until show efn
19:55:22 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> 1024.0']
19:55:47 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang class Foo fn bar 1337 efn eclass fn main 'Foo new bar efn
19:55:47 <stlangbot> [mroman] [<steval.StObject instance at 0x84c110c>, 1337.0, <steval.StObject instance at 0x84c110c>]
19:55:57 <mroman> ^- That's how high level it is.
19:57:17 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main 'Hello rot efn
19:57:17 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
19:57:22 <mroman> come on :(
19:57:36 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main 'Hello expode implode rot efn
19:57:36 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
19:58:13 <mroman> Ah, that's the 'strings are not lists in python' bug again.
19:58:58 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {isDigit} '123abcd takeWhile \
19:58:59 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['123']
19:59:16 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M {isDigit} '123abcd dropWhile \
19:59:16 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['abcd']
19:59:18 <oerjan> mroman: sure it's not just you misspelling explode?
19:59:47 <mroman> oerjan: yes, but explode implode is just a hack because.
19:59:50 <mroman> rot only works with lists.
19:59:56 <mroman> and python does not consider string to be lists.
20:00:03 <mroman> so I convert a string with explode implode to a list
20:00:12 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello \
20:00:12 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['Hello']
20:00:14 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode \
20:00:15 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o']
20:00:18 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode implode \
20:00:18 <stlangbot> [mroman] [['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o']]
20:00:21 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode implode rot \
20:00:21 <stlangbot> [mroman] [['e', 'l', 'l', 'o', 'H']]
20:00:24 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello explode implode rot concat \
20:00:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['elloH']
20:02:16 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'l 'Hello explode implode rot concat reverse split \
20:02:16 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
20:02:37 <mroman> ^- explode and implode mess up the whole stack :)
20:02:48 <mroman> implode converts the whole stack to a list.
20:02:59 <mroman> and explode pushes every element of a list to the stack
20:03:08 <mroman> stlangbot: stlangbot M 2 2 \
20:03:09 <stlangbot> [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't.
20:03:12 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 \
20:03:12 <stlangbot> [mroman] [2.0, 2.0]
20:03:14 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 + \
20:03:14 <stlangbot> [mroman] [4.0]
20:03:18 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode \
20:03:18 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[2.0, 2.0]]
20:03:22 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode explode \
20:03:22 <stlangbot> [mroman] [2.0, 2.0]
20:03:24 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode explode +\
20:03:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
20:03:26 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 2 2 implode explode + \
20:03:27 <stlangbot> [mroman] [4.0]
20:03:30 <Taneb> stlangbot: stlang 1 1 +
20:03:31 <stlangbot> [Taneb] None
20:03:35 <Taneb> :(
20:03:40 <mroman> Taneb: You need a main function.
20:03:49 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main 1 1 + efn
20:03:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] [2.0]
20:03:57 <mroman> M is short for 'fn main' and \ is short for '\'
20:04:05 <mroman> and \o/ is short for 'main'
20:04:06 <myndzi> |
20:04:06 <myndzi> /<
20:04:11 <oerjan> mroman: you just need a function to run a function with a given list as the stack
20:04:35 <oerjan> then explode and implode become useable
20:05:29 <oerjan> i suppose there's nothing preventing you from using implode to _define_ that
20:05:40 <mroman> |o| is also short for 'fn main'
20:05:41 <myndzi> |
20:05:41 <myndzi> |\
20:05:59 <mroman> /o\ duplicates an instruction
20:05:59 <myndzi> |
20:05:59 <myndzi> |\
20:06:05 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang fn main 2 /o\ + efn
20:06:05 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
20:06:06 <myndzi> |
20:06:06 <myndzi> /<
20:06:08 <mroman> or so
20:06:15 <mroman> not sure about that.
20:06:46 <mroman> " is replaced with the name of the function it appears in.
20:06:48 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:07:00 <mroman> ` apparentely is @"
20:07:03 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
20:07:11 <mroman> hm.
20:08:24 <mroman> stlangbot: setnote fix Fix rot for strings.
20:08:25 <stlangbot> Syntax error!
20:08:30 <mroman> stlangbot: setnote|fix Fix rot for strings.
20:08:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't.
20:08:36 <mroman> ah shutup.
20:08:59 <mroman> stlangbot: setnote|fix Fix rot for strings.
20:09:00 <stlangbot> [mroman] Only you can understand you. I don't.
20:09:28 <mroman> stlangbot: setnote fix|Fix rot for strings.
20:09:29 <stlangbot> [mroman]Saved as fix!
20:09:38 <mroman> stlangbot: die
20:09:38 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
20:11:38 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
20:15:16 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:03:55 -!- zzo38 has joined.
21:10:28 <mroman> I probably should write a complete documentation about Stlang.
21:10:38 <mroman> Or else I will forget everything and that would suck :(
21:13:24 <zzo38> How to initialize a git repository for repo.or.cz? I forgot
21:18:15 <zzo38> I got the error message "fatal: 'origin' does not appear to be a git repository" and "fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly"
21:19:42 <nortti> does anyone of you know any good pascal tutorials. I just got pascal compiler working on twenex
21:23:10 * oerjan has long since forgotten where he learned pascal
21:23:31 <oerjan> but then it _was_ > 20 years ago
21:24:58 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
21:27:25 <olsner> oerjan knows pascal?
21:28:03 <oerjan> whatever i haven't forgotten
21:29:16 <oerjan> turbo pascal was used in the first programming class in university. i think i'd read about it before though, i am not sure if my dad's computer had a compiler before that.
21:33:19 <nortti> did you know that you can get old turbo pascals for free legaly
21:33:33 <oerjan> i recall original pascal was very strict about the order in which things were declared
21:33:36 * shachaf uses turbo Haskell these days.
21:33:46 <nortti> :P
21:34:12 <nortti> is it very fast Haskell compiler for cp/m and dos?
21:34:27 <shachaf> It's a very-fast-Haskell compiler.
21:34:33 <shachaf> It compiles fast Haskell code, but very slowly.
21:36:08 <oerjan> drive webcomic is still not out of hiatus :(
21:42:38 <zzo38> What does it mean by "'origin' does not appear to be a git repository" and how does it fixed?
21:44:19 <oerjan> nortti: either your browser or your external editor is broken for editing wiki articles :P
21:44:36 <oerjan> (i fixed it already)
21:44:42 <nortti> what do you mean?
21:44:54 <oerjan> nortti: look at the diff for your Talk:Underload edit
21:45:04 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Underload&curid=2034&diff=33072&oldid=32783
21:46:28 <nortti> ugh. I'll try to fix character encoding
21:46:41 <nortti> +before I edit again
21:47:09 <nortti> yeah. it was set as latin-1
21:52:01 <zzo38> I fixed it
21:53:16 <zzo38> http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git
21:53:18 <rolebot> Public Git Hosting - ITMCK.git/summary
21:56:00 <oerjan> nortti: what is [(x)-A(x)B] = [(x)-A}:{B] supposed to mean
21:59:03 <nortti> (x) is replaced with closing curly brace, duplicate operator and opening curly brace
22:00:08 <oerjan> in that case i think the "When (x) is not between { and }" must be wrong
22:00:24 <nortti> actually no
22:00:52 <nortti> wel yes if you count [ and ] as { and }
22:01:10 <oerjan> wat
22:01:26 <nortti> [(x)-(x)(foo)]
22:01:38 <nortti> [(x)-}:{(foo)]
22:01:50 <nortti> [(x)-}:{(foo)(x)]!
22:02:03 <kallisti> don't we have a site for hosting esolangs?
22:02:09 <nortti> {}:{(foo)}!
22:02:17 <nortti> (foo)
22:02:24 <oerjan> kallisti: the file archive
22:02:54 <kallisti> the most be a complete waste of time, but I could probably set up my dedicated server for esolang repos.
22:03:02 <kallisti> s/the most/this might/
22:03:28 <kallisti> once I get it.
22:03:32 * kallisti is waiting for his order to complete.
22:04:15 * oerjan adds all infima and suprema to kallisti's order
22:04:21 <kallisti> :|
22:04:42 <kallisti> my order isn't total yet.
22:05:12 <oerjan> picky
22:08:07 <kallisti> but yes, I can donate my server for whatever purpose might be beneficial. it's primarily high storage at 1 TB, with low RAM/CPU.
22:08:18 <kallisti> so it would be good for mirrors/backups.
22:12:36 <kallisti> http://eris.net/ I wonder if I can get this hostname..
22:12:37 <rolebot> Eris Networking
22:12:54 <zzo38> http://127.0.0.1/
22:13:34 <kallisti> www.gmail.com
22:13:35 <rolebot> Gmail: Email from Google
22:16:03 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:16:14 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
22:16:57 <kallisti> `words 50
22:17:05 <HackEgo> cuta bould pouerer gauzune frescard stubaliz xvii sphota audie vanan comver rec corbe walte intam figla redt hfnker bilinter telbe habi ana selsey vity pedt
22:17:35 <kallisti> approximately 35% of those would make decent hostnames.
22:17:48 <shachaf> Who's rolebot?
22:18:07 <kallisti> that's mine.
22:18:38 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:18:59 <shachaf> rolebot: Hmm?
22:19:10 <kallisti> it avoids repeating redundant titles.
22:19:31 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:19:32 <rolebot> blah blah blah blah
22:19:57 <mroman> zzo38: git remote add origin?
22:20:04 <zzo38> mroman: Yes I fixed it now
22:20:06 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:20:06 <rolebot> <CTCP>ACTIONblah blah bah blah<CTCP>
22:20:18 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:20:18 * rolebot blah blah bah blah
22:20:56 <kallisti> er, how does that work?
22:21:31 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:21:45 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:21:57 <shachaf> ?
22:21:59 <oerjan> http://http.http.org.org/
22:22:06 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:22:12 <shachaf> Oh.
22:22:14 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:22:14 * rolebot blah blah bah blah
22:22:27 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:22:28 <rolebot> <CTCP>ACTION blah blah bah blah hi
22:22:32 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html
22:22:32 <rolebot> `echo http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html
22:22:35 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html
22:22:36 <rolebot> `echo http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html
22:22:39 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html
22:22:40 <rolebot> `echo http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html
22:22:42 * oerjan claps
22:22:43 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/rolebot.html
22:22:43 <nortti> kallisti: /me just sends normal message starting with ^AACTION
22:22:43 <rolebot> Stopped.
22:22:46 <kallisti> `ignore HackEgo
22:22:49 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
22:22:52 * kallisti thought he already did that.
22:23:06 <kallisti> $ignore HackEgo
22:23:06 <rolebot> Done.
22:23:10 <kallisti> $ignore
22:23:10 <rolebot> Usage: ignore [<nick1> <nick2> ...] -- ignores the specified nicks | Ignored nicks:
22:23:14 <kallisti> oh...
22:23:34 <shachaf> $ignore
22:23:35 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges.
22:23:50 <shachaf> @where haskell
22:23:50 <lambdabot> http://haskell.org
22:23:52 <rolebot> Haskell - HaskellWiki
22:24:04 <oerjan> @where @where
22:24:05 <lambdabot> @where @where
22:24:11 <shachaf> oerjan: No, use ?
22:24:13 <shachaf> ?where ?where
22:24:13 <lambdabot> ?where ?where
22:24:29 <kallisti> `ignore HackEgo EgoBot
22:24:32 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
22:24:35 <kallisti> $ignore HackEgo EgoBot
22:24:35 <rolebot> Done.
22:24:36 <kallisti> `ignore
22:24:39 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
22:24:45 <kallisti> werjoiwjtehiuoweriuwreutiwher
22:24:48 <kallisti> the old prefix was `
22:24:56 <kallisti> $ignore
22:24:57 <rolebot> Usage: ignore [<nick1> <nick2> ...] -- ignores the specified nicks | Ignored nicks:
22:25:02 <kallisti> that's... peculiar
22:25:13 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:25:14 <rolebot> <CTCP>TIME blah<CTCP>
22:25:21 <kallisti> I'm still confused as to how that works.
22:25:28 <zzo38> Confused as to how what works?
22:25:43 <kallisti> it should be sending a PRIVMSG
22:25:48 <shachaf> It is.
22:25:50 <zzo38> It is sending a PRIVMSG
22:25:59 <kallisti> oh... okay.
22:26:23 <kallisti> mystery solved
22:26:28 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:26:29 <rolebot> <CTCP>TIME<CTCP>
22:26:35 <shachaf> rolebot: Stop it. :-(
22:26:42 <kallisti> `ignore shachaf
22:26:45 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
22:26:46 <kallisti> lol
22:27:01 <shachaf> @where hi
22:27:01 <lambdabot> I know nothing about hi.
22:27:25 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:27:25 * rolebot will never stop!
22:27:28 -!- rolebot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:37 <kallisti> oh
22:27:38 <kallisti> oops
22:27:40 <monqy> rest peacefully, rolebot
22:27:41 <monqy> "stopped"
22:27:54 <kallisti> I killed screen instead of detaching
22:27:54 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:28:07 <shachaf> Is the source to rolebot online?
22:28:11 <kallisti> not currently
22:28:19 <kallisti> I'll put it on github one day.
22:28:24 <shachaf> Today?
22:28:28 <kallisti> no.
22:29:09 <kallisti> I need to rid it of some things that don't make much sense.
22:29:22 <kallisti> particularly a global config module
22:29:48 <shachaf> Bring him back up. :-(
22:29:54 <kallisti> okay.
22:30:10 -!- rolebot has joined.
22:30:32 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:30:32 * rolebot doesn't really know how IRC works. :-( \020? Phooey.
22:31:33 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:31:39 <rolebot> <CTCP>ACTION blah
22:31:49 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:32:05 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:32:05 * rolebot hi b c blah
22:32:23 <kallisti> it's almost as though it's been stress tested on other IRC channels.
22:32:35 <monqy> but not quite
22:32:53 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:32:53 * rolebot abc
22:33:04 <shachaf> kallisti: Oh, I thought it was brand new.
22:33:19 <kallisti> no. it just has no reason to be here.
22:33:24 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/hi.html
22:33:24 * rolebot was born yesterday
22:33:49 <kallisti> nortti mentioned having a sandbox for old unix boxes, and so I offered it as a potential candidate.
22:34:05 <shachaf> aAnyway you should put the code up.
22:34:10 <kallisti> it'll happen
22:34:20 <kallisti> just not TODAY IMMEDIATELY
22:34:30 <kallisti> I was going to do that while setting up my server-to-be
22:34:32 <shachaf> You should put it up TODAY IMMEDIATELY
22:34:49 <kallisti> also I'm about to change some things
22:35:02 <shachaf> Good! So you should put it up so we can see the changes.
22:35:05 <kallisti> okay.
22:35:07 <monqy> $hello
22:35:07 <rolebot> Perhaps you meant: tell help
22:35:10 <monqy> $help
22:35:11 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
22:35:17 <shachaf> Are you using your browser to fetch titles?
22:35:22 <kallisti> no I'm using perl.
22:35:25 <kallisti> and regex.
22:35:27 <monqy> $help rp
22:35:27 <rolebot> rp commands: roll, system
22:35:30 <monqy> what's this
22:35:31 <shachaf> So why is your useragent Safari?
22:35:33 <shachaf> Liar. :-(
22:35:36 <shachaf> $roll
22:35:36 <rolebot> Usage: roll <number> [<diff>]
22:35:39 <shachaf> $roll 500
22:35:39 <rolebot> Invalid dice count
22:35:41 <shachaf> $roll 5000
22:35:42 <rolebot> Invalid dice count
22:35:44 <shachaf> $roll 500000
22:35:44 <rolebot> Invalid dice count
22:35:46 <kallisti> monqy: it was originally going to be a diceroller for tabletop systems
22:35:47 * shachaf sighs.
22:35:50 <monqy> too much dice, shachaf
22:35:51 <monqy> too much dice
22:35:54 <kallisti> but then it just became a lambdabot clone
22:36:00 <shachaf> $roll 12
22:36:00 <rolebot> 7 successes (5 10 7 7 4 6 3 3 3 7 2 7 9)
22:36:02 <shachaf> $roll 12 5000
22:36:02 <rolebot> Invalid difficulty
22:36:05 <shachaf> $roll 12 50000
22:36:05 <rolebot> Invalid difficulty
22:36:06 <shachaf> $roll 12 5000000000
22:36:06 <rolebot> Invalid difficulty
22:36:09 * shachaf sighs.
22:36:11 <kallisti> try like...
22:36:14 <kallisti> reasonable numbers
22:36:24 <shachaf> I tried a reasonable number!
22:36:25 <monqy> $system
22:36:25 <rolebot> Dice systems: owod, shadowrun
22:36:27 <shachaf> It didn't like it.
22:36:32 <shachaf> So I made it even more reasonable!
22:36:32 <kallisti> shadowrun system is incomplete
22:36:36 <shachaf> $roll 12 2
22:36:36 <rolebot> 12 successes (6 7 4 3 3 9 4 9 7 5 8 3)
22:36:37 <shachaf> $roll 12 0
22:36:38 <rolebot> Invalid difficulty
22:36:40 <shachaf> $roll 12 1
22:36:40 <rolebot> Invalid difficulty
22:36:43 <shachaf> $roll 12 4
22:36:43 <rolebot> 5 successes (5 6 3 1 5 7 3 10 3 1 7 2 8)
22:36:46 <shachaf> $roll 12 12
22:36:46 <rolebot> Invalid difficulty
22:36:47 <shachaf> $roll 12 11
22:36:47 <rolebot> Invalid difficulty
22:36:50 <shachaf> $roll 12 10
22:36:50 <rolebot> -1 successes (4 6 9 1 6 1 6 6 3 4 8 7)
22:36:52 <kallisti> it's a d10 system
22:36:57 <shachaf> -1 successes, eh?
22:37:00 <kallisti> yes
22:37:02 <shachaf> $help
22:37:02 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
22:37:03 <monqy> that's not very many successes
22:37:08 <kallisti> that's a "botch"
22:37:09 <shachaf> $echo hi monqy
22:37:09 <rolebot> hi monqy
22:37:14 <monqy> ~help messages
22:37:14 <rolebot> Displays all of your unread messages and then deletes them. Messages are received securely and privately. Both parties must be registered with services.
22:37:15 <kallisti> it's like rolling 1 in dnd
22:37:51 <kallisti> monqy: more lambdabot clonage
22:37:56 <kallisti> except I made it more secure.
22:38:00 <shachaf> $tell monqy hi monqy
22:38:00 <monqy> can rolebot do haskel
22:38:00 <rolebot> Done.
22:38:01 <rolebot> monqy: You have 1 message. Type ~messages to read it.
22:38:03 <kallisti> yes
22:38:11 <shachaf> $tell shachaf hi
22:38:12 <rolebot> Tell yourself.
22:38:16 <shachaf> $tell rolebot what?
22:38:17 <rolebot> Cool!
22:38:22 <shachaf> $ask rolebot hi
22:38:27 <kallisti> it's turned off though because the syntax is the same as lambdabot
22:38:35 <shachaf> > 1
22:38:36 <lambdabot> 1
22:38:41 <kallisti> also ignore isn't working for some reason
22:38:43 <monqy> ~messages
22:38:43 <rolebot> monqy: See PM.
22:38:45 <kallisti> which is bad
22:38:56 <monqy> rolebot: no fun
22:39:05 <monqy> $ignore kallisti
22:39:06 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges.
22:39:08 <monqy> : o
22:39:12 -!- kallisti has changed nick to notkallisti.
22:39:14 <monqy> $admin + monqy
22:39:14 <rolebot> Usage: admin (list|add|delete) [<nick1> <nick2> <nick3> ...] -- admin manager command
22:39:19 <shachaf> $admin add monqy
22:39:20 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges
22:39:23 <shachaf> $admin add shachaf
22:39:23 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges
22:39:25 <shachaf> $admin add m
22:39:26 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges
22:39:29 <notkallisti> $admin list
22:39:30 <rolebot> Admins: kallisti
22:39:40 <shachaf> $admin add notkallisti
22:39:40 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges
22:39:43 <shachaf> $admin add norkallisti
22:39:43 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges
22:39:55 <shachaf> monqy: admin add shachaf
22:39:55 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:40:02 <monqy> shachaf: "no can do"
22:40:16 <shachaf> monqy: admin + shachaf
22:40:29 <shachaf> monqy: tell shachaf hi monqy \
22:40:48 <monqy> notkallisti: you have 1 unread messages. thanks.
22:41:00 -!- notkallisti has changed nick to kallisti.
22:41:09 <shachaf> monqy: do i have a 1 unread messages
22:41:11 <monqy> no
22:41:18 <kallisti> $unload Admin
22:41:18 <rolebot> Done.
22:41:21 <shachaf> $tell shachaf you have 1 undead messages
22:41:21 <rolebot> Tell yourself.
22:41:22 -!- oonbotti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:41:26 <shachaf> monqy: tell shachaf you have 1 undead messages
22:41:28 <kallisti> $load Admin
22:41:28 <rolebot> Done.
22:41:36 <shachaf> monqy: tell shachaf how many massages do i have
22:41:42 <monqy> shachaf: you have 1 unfed messages
22:41:45 <kallisti> $ignore HackEgo
22:41:45 <rolebot> Done.
22:41:46 <kallisti> $ignore
22:41:46 <rolebot> Usage: ignore [<nick1> <nick2> ...] -- ignores the specified nicks | Ignored nicks:
22:41:46 <shachaf> monqy: feed it
22:41:53 <kallisti> `echo $help
22:41:56 <HackEgo> ​$help
22:42:05 <kallisti> hm
22:42:08 <kallisti> it's just not showing them properly
22:42:08 <shachaf> monqy: is this like tamaguchi!
22:42:28 -!- oonbotti has joined.
22:42:45 <monqy> how do I feed messages ?
22:42:46 <kallisti> $ignore EgoBot oonbotti fungot myndzi stlangbot
22:42:46 <rolebot> Done.
22:42:47 <fungot> kallisti: it needs a doctype declaration!
22:42:56 <kallisti> whut
22:43:03 <monqy> myndzi isn't a bot
22:43:16 <kallisti> half human. half bot.
22:43:18 <kallisti> still evil.
22:43:18 <shachaf> myndzi: \o/! They've figured out you're not a bot!
22:43:18 <myndzi> |
22:43:18 <myndzi> >\
22:43:38 <kallisti> `ignore clog
22:43:41 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ignore: not found
22:43:43 <kallisti> $ignore clog
22:43:43 <rolebot> Done.
22:43:45 <kallisti> you never know
22:43:46 <shachaf> klogg
22:43:49 <kallisti> one day the robot uprising may happen
22:43:52 <shachaf> @google klogg likes rocks
22:43:54 <kallisti> I want rolebot to be on my side.
22:43:54 <lambdabot> http://theneverhood.wikia.com/wiki/Klogg
22:43:54 <lambdabot> Title: Klogg - The Neverhood Wiki
22:44:00 <kallisti> $ignore lambdabot
22:44:01 <rolebot> Done.
22:44:01 <shachaf> Wait, that's Brog.
22:44:08 <monqy> $ignore zeptobot
22:44:08 <rolebot> Insufficient privileges.
22:44:12 <kallisti> $time fucking
22:44:13 <rolebot> Time in Fucking, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 00:44
22:44:16 <nortti_> `uname -a
22:44:19 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
22:44:26 <nortti_> #shell uname -a
22:44:26 <oonbotti> Linux T20-slitaz 2.6.30.6-slitaz #1 SMP Sun Mar 28 16:39:51 CEST 2010 i686 \
22:44:36 <kallisti> `perl `uname -a`
22:44:38 <shachaf> #shell kill -9 $$
22:44:39 <kallisti> $perl `uname -a`
22:44:39 <rolebot> "Linux maria 3.2.0-2-amd64 #1 SMP Fri Jun 1 17:49:08 UTC 2012 x86_64 GNU/Linux\n"
22:44:39 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "`uname -a`": No such file or directory
22:44:55 <shachaf> #shell echo $(echo echo)
22:45:33 <nortti_> shachaf: #shell it still for botopd only
22:45:45 <shachaf> #am i botopd
22:46:03 <monqy> #shello
22:46:22 <oonbotti> shachaf: no
22:46:28 <kallisti> $perl use Lingua::EN::Inflect 'conjugate'; conjugate(verb => 'greet', tense=> 'perfect_prog');
22:46:39 <kallisti> :_(
22:46:41 <shachaf> $perl print 'hi';
22:46:41 <rolebot> Nope.
22:47:22 <kallisti> $perl $self->say(body => 'hi!', channel => '#playchan')
22:47:34 <kallisti> $perl $self->say(body => 'hi!', channel => 'monqy')
22:47:45 <monqy> rolebot said hi
22:48:12 <olsner> no, monqy said hi
22:48:25 <kallisti> > 2 + 2
22:48:26 <lambdabot> 4
22:48:35 <monqy> $perl 2 + 2
22:48:35 <rolebot> Nope.
22:48:39 <monqy> :'(
22:49:20 <shachaf> $perl say 'hi';
22:49:20 <rolebot> Nope.
22:49:31 <shachaf> $perl say, hi there!
22:49:31 <rolebot> Nope.
22:49:57 <kallisti> huh, I apparently deleted the Haskell plugin.
22:50:06 <monqy> oops
22:50:24 <kallisti> `load Haskell
22:50:26 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
22:50:27 <kallisti> $load Haskell
22:50:28 <rolebot> Done.
22:50:30 <kallisti> > 2 + 2
22:50:31 <rolebot> 4
22:50:31 <lambdabot> 4
22:50:36 <kallisti> :t 2
22:50:37 <rolebot> 2 :: Num a => a
22:50:37 <lambdabot> forall t. (Num t) => t
22:50:42 <kallisti> $unload Haskell
22:50:43 <rolebot> Done.
22:52:39 <nortti_> #ls
22:52:51 <rolebot> what is this, help
22:53:19 <rolebot> what is this, help
22:53:48 <rolebot> #help
22:53:48 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza
22:54:04 <shachaf> #ls
22:54:08 <shachaf> #eliza
22:54:08 <oonbotti> I see. And what does that tell you?
22:54:12 <shachaf> #rm -rf /
22:54:14 <shachaf> #cc
22:54:21 <shachaf> #msg shachaf hi
22:54:21 <oonbotti> Ok
22:54:24 <shachaf> hi
22:54:30 <shachaf> #readmsg
22:54:30 <oonbotti> shachaf: hi
22:54:31 <shachaf> #readmsg
22:54:39 <shachaf> #forth
22:54:43 <kallisti> shachaf: guess what language rolebot is
22:54:54 <shachaf> Catalan
22:54:58 <kallisti> yep!
22:55:04 <kallisti> $words --catalan 15
22:55:04 <rolebot> antírem seguntacat condavat blam sacromprondiré venàssiu aquessim batismocione burjàssim incossalli pogrambravit enfluen amores espessis pillàs
22:55:11 <shachaf> Huh?
22:55:23 <shachaf> $words --hebrew 15
22:55:23 <rolebot> שהית בהתאח שהרביה ופו מאנשיא ומנשבו ונד האנציי ורסת חתיחס ותפוס הציג אבו הנציה בלזק
22:55:24 <nortti_> #writefile hi.c void main() { char a[3]: a[0]='h'; a[1]='i'; a[2]=0; puts(a); }
22:55:34 <nortti_> #cc hi.c hi
22:55:36 <oonbotti> Compile failed
22:55:44 <kallisti> nortti_: that's going to be for conveniently adding files I assume?
22:55:54 <nortti_> yes
22:55:55 <kallisti> on older machines
22:55:56 <kallisti> yes
22:57:09 <nortti_> now #writefile writes to specified dir only on host system
22:57:22 <kallisti> #cc
22:58:02 <kallisti> shachaf: perl, btw
22:58:03 <nortti_> it is just ISC licensed c2bf with my libc
22:59:24 <nortti_> #writefile hi.c void main() { char a[3]; a[0]='h'; a[1]='i'; a[2]=0; puts(a); }
22:59:32 <nortti_> #cc hi.c hi
22:59:33 <oonbotti> Compile failed
22:59:50 <nortti_> #rm hi.c
22:59:54 <nortti_> #writefile hi.c void main() { char a[3]; a[0]='h'; a[1]='i'; a[2]=0; puts(a); }
22:59:58 <nortti_> #cc hi.c hi
22:59:58 <oonbotti> Compile failed
23:02:06 <kallisti> can you make git track an empty directory?
23:02:17 <shachaf> git doesn't track directories.
23:02:22 <shachaf> Only files.
23:02:23 <kallisti> that's what I thought
23:05:28 <olsner> can tar archives include empty directories? you could just version control a tar archive
23:05:53 <kallisti> that would be a really silly thing to do.
23:10:44 <shachaf> You could put a .gitignore file in empty directories.
23:11:00 <kallisti> or I can hack my perl to create the directory at startup
23:11:51 <olsner> oh what a horrible hack, creating directories that you need on startup
23:11:57 <kallisti> yep
23:12:07 <kallisti> I'm giving IRC bot programming a bad name.
23:12:32 <shachaf> I R C bot programming.
23:37:21 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
23:39:05 <kallisti> shachaf: https://github.com/kallisti-dev/Rolebot
23:39:53 <oerjan> BOO, rolebot doesn't do https: :P
23:40:08 <kallisti> https://example.com
23:40:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:40:41 <shachaf> $echo hi
23:40:41 <rolebot> hi
23:40:50 <kallisti> at nortti_'s request
23:40:56 <kallisti> I added that pointless command
23:41:08 <oerjan> $echo ^echo hi
23:41:09 <rolebot> ^echo hi
23:41:13 <nortti_> yay
23:41:17 <oerjan> bah
23:41:17 <shachaf> $color hi
23:41:25 <shachaf> $seen oerjan
23:41:25 <rolebot> oerjan was last seen on Thursday July 05, 2012 at 23:41 GMT (8 seconds ago)
23:41:26 <kallisti> $help
23:41:26 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
23:41:43 <oerjan> how did fungot get to ignore it already :(
23:41:44 <fungot> oerjan: i'm happy with them, but still
23:41:45 <nortti_> $echo #echo `echo hi
23:41:46 <rolebot> #echo `echo hi
23:41:46 <oonbotti> `echo hi
23:41:49 <oerjan> ^echo hi
23:41:49 <HackEgo> hi
23:41:49 <fungot> hi hi
23:41:56 <kallisti> shachaf: the Color plugin applies a filter that removes color codes when +c is on (and we don't have voice/ops)
23:41:57 <oerjan> ^ignore
23:42:51 <shachaf> voiceops lets you bypass +c?
23:43:03 <kallisti> not sure about Freenode but it does on other networks.
23:44:48 <kallisti> shachaf: I'm particularly pleased at how plugins work
23:44:57 <kallisti> only at the expense of a dynamically scoped variable.
23:47:37 <oerjan> poor dynamically scoped variable
23:48:14 <kallisti> hey, I had someone scold me for a while on #perl because I used a dynamically scoped variable instead of some OO thing.
23:48:20 <kallisti> this is no laughing matter.
23:51:12 <shachaf> "function of a dynamically-scoped variable"
23:51:19 <shachaf> It's a big field of study in mathematics.
23:52:15 <kallisti> I doubt it's thread-safe but... concurrent programming in perl requires a brave soul.
23:56:14 <kallisti> shachaf: is that dynamic scoping in the sense a computer scientist is familiar with?
23:56:25 <shachaf> I don't know.
23:56:33 <shachaf> Pick your interpretation, it's as good as mine.
2012-07-06
00:02:31 <Vorpal> <kallisti> shachaf: the Color plugin applies a filter that removes color codes when +c is on (and we don't have voice/ops) <-- we don't have +c though?
00:02:50 <kallisti> correct
00:02:52 <kallisti> (?????)
00:02:55 <Vorpal> though who in here would use colour
00:03:20 <Vorpal> I don't know anyone who would
00:04:14 <nortti_> ^rainbow really?
00:04:14 <fungot> really?
00:04:51 <Vorpal> hm my phone is able to downsample 1080p to 720p on the fly without much issues. Impressive. More than what my old desktop could do. (The built in media player didn't want to play the clip, but vlc for android worked just fine)
00:05:03 <shachaf> ^rainbow that'sasadrainbow
00:05:03 <fungot> that'sasadrainbow
00:05:06 <kallisti> I didn't write and test 700+ lines of perl code 2 days after I came back to #esoteric
00:05:16 <Vorpal> (the phone has a 720p screen)
00:05:17 <kallisti> needless to say this bot has been used in other channels.
00:05:30 <Vorpal> kallisti, which bot is that?
00:05:34 <shachaf> If it's so "needless" then why have you done it at least twice already?
00:05:36 <shachaf> RIDDLE ME THAT!
00:05:48 <kallisti> BECAUSE UR DUMB
00:05:57 <Vorpal> shachaf, because irony
00:06:03 <monqy> what a burn
00:06:13 * kallisti is fire.
00:06:22 <quintopia> wb kallisti
00:06:30 <kallisti> ty
00:06:32 <shachaf> monqy: are you always watching
00:06:34 <Vorpal> oh didn't know kallisti had been away
00:06:35 -!- Patashu has quit (Disconnected by services).
00:06:36 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has joined.
00:06:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway what bot?
00:06:38 <shachaf> like big brother
00:06:40 <shachaf> or god
00:06:42 <monqy> shachaf: only sometimes
00:06:44 <shachaf> or santa claus
00:06:49 <kallisti> Vorpal: the one you were just taking about
00:06:50 <shachaf> monqy = santa claus??
00:06:54 <kallisti> and the one I've been talking about
00:06:56 <monqy> only sometimes
00:06:59 <Vorpal> kallisti, I was talking to a bot?
00:07:03 <kallisti> do you have amnesia?
00:07:12 <Vorpal> where? I talked to you and shachaf, that is all I know
00:07:12 <shachaf> I *am* nesia.
00:07:27 <Vorpal> oh about
00:07:29 <Vorpal> not to
00:07:30 <Vorpal> right
00:07:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, yes and I'm asking about the name of it
00:07:41 <Vorpal> since I didn't see it
00:07:46 <kallisti> rolebot: hi
00:07:47 <kallisti> rolebot: help
00:07:47 <rolebot> kallisti: Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Admin, Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
00:07:58 <Vorpal> kallisti, I literally connected to my bouncer before I said that line, then read the log replay
00:08:24 <itidus21> did you mean to say bouncer?
00:08:29 <kallisti> yes
00:08:38 <Vorpal> what else?
00:08:49 <itidus21> browser? :-S
00:08:54 <Vorpal> kallisti, what does rolebot do that fungot, HackEgo, EgoBot or lambdabot can't do?
00:08:55 <fungot> Vorpal: i'm going for
00:09:00 <Vorpal> itidus21, bouncer
00:09:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, znc to be specific
00:09:19 <itidus21> well, you did say what else?
00:09:24 <kallisti> Vorpal: not much. it can show you the time in a location, it can roll dice, it shows the titles of some URLs, and is otherwise a lambdabot clone of sorts
00:09:29 <Vorpal> itidus21, now you lost me
00:09:32 <kallisti> it has no reason to be here.
00:09:45 <Vorpal> $time in hell
00:09:46 <rolebot> Invalid query.
00:09:47 <itidus21> ok
00:09:51 <Vorpal> $time in Stockholm
00:09:52 <rolebot> Invalid query.
00:09:55 <kallisti> $time fucking
00:09:55 <rolebot> Time in Fucking, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:09
00:10:02 <Vorpal> $time Kiruna
00:10:03 <rolebot> Time in Kiruna, Sweden (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10
00:10:08 <kallisti> $time shit
00:10:09 <rolebot> Time in Shit, Iran (GMT+4.50): 2012-07-06 04:40
00:10:11 <Vorpal> $time Örebro
00:10:12 <rolebot> Time in Orebro, Sweden (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10
00:10:15 <kallisti> $time balls
00:10:15 <rolebot> Time in Ballsh, Albania (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10
00:10:16 <Vorpal> fail, it is Örebro
00:10:19 <Vorpal> not Orebro
00:10:32 <Vorpal> Ö is a different letter in the Swedish alphabet
00:10:42 <nortti_> $time hell
00:10:43 <rolebot> Time in Hell, Norway (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:10
00:10:52 <kallisti> complaints may be directed at the web API I'm using to get this data.
00:10:55 <Vorpal> kallisti, the correct transcription of Örebro would be Oerebro
00:11:02 <Vorpal> pls fix!
00:11:15 <Vorpal> kallisti, which web api?
00:11:26 <Vorpal> $time Ekeby
00:11:27 <rolebot> Time in Ekeby, Sweden (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 02:11
00:11:30 <Vorpal> what really?
00:11:34 <Vorpal> which Ekeby
00:11:40 <Vorpal> there is like tens of them
00:11:42 <kallisti> the one in Sweden
00:11:46 <kallisti> at GMT+2
00:11:54 <Vorpal> well all of Sweden is GMT+2
00:11:55 <ion> GMT is dead, long live UTC
00:11:58 <Vorpal> so it doesn't mean anything
00:11:59 <kallisti> Vorpal: there you go
00:12:01 <kallisti> it's all of them
00:12:03 <Vorpal> XD
00:12:32 <kallisti> my $json = get_url "http://www.worldweatheronline.com/feed/tz.ashx?q=$query&format=json&key=$api_key";
00:12:59 <Vorpal> kallisti, I know on the top of my head I have driven through at least four Ekeby. Every single one has been like less than 20 houses.
00:13:09 <kallisti> it's hard to find a decent timezone search service
00:13:13 <quintopia> SYN
00:13:18 <Vorpal> quintopia, ACK
00:13:20 <Vorpal> err
00:13:22 <kallisti> I use a combination of Olsen database for timezone names and that site for other queries.
00:13:22 <Vorpal> SYN-ACK
00:13:25 <Vorpal> (I fail)
00:13:30 <quintopia> thx
00:13:35 <kallisti> `time EST
00:13:37 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
00:13:39 <kallisti> $time EST
00:13:39 <rolebot> Time in EST: 2012-07-06 00:13
00:13:42 <Vorpal> `time Zulu
00:13:44 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
00:13:46 <Vorpal> aww, come on
00:13:53 <Vorpal> $time Zulu
00:13:54 <rolebot> Time in UTC: 2012-07-06 00:13
00:13:56 <Vorpal> good
00:14:19 <Vorpal> it can handle that alias (used in the area of aircrafts)
00:14:20 <kallisti> doesn't do GMT offsets unfortunately
00:14:25 <nortti_> $time foobar
00:14:25 <kallisti> I guess I could add that pretty easily
00:14:25 <rolebot> Invalid query.
00:14:33 <Vorpal> kallisti, what about UTC offsets?
00:14:38 <Vorpal> $time UTC+1
00:14:39 <rolebot> Time in Utchahana, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 09:14
00:14:40 <kallisti> that also not
00:14:44 <Vorpal> $time CET
00:14:45 <rolebot> Time in CEST: 2012-07-06 00:14
00:14:50 <Vorpal> err what if I want CET
00:14:54 <Vorpal> CEST is the summer time equiv
00:15:00 <kallisti> I don't think CET is an official timezone name
00:15:09 <kallisti> PST doesn't work either.
00:15:11 <Vorpal> kallisti, err, that is what Sweden has when it isn't summer time
00:15:12 <kallisti> `time PST
00:15:14 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
00:15:18 <kallisti> baaaaah
00:15:20 <kallisti> $time PST
00:15:20 <Vorpal> kallisti, CEST is the summer time timezone for sweden
00:15:21 <rolebot> Time in PST, Preston, Cuba (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 20:15
00:16:06 <Vorpal> $ date -d @0
00:16:06 <Vorpal> tor 1 jan 1970 01.00.00 CET
00:16:11 <kallisti> time and frink are pretty useful for IRC I think.
00:16:12 <Vorpal> kallisti, proof of timezone ^
00:16:18 <kallisti> I believe you
00:16:24 <Vorpal> kallisti, now get CET working :P
00:16:27 <kallisti> no
00:16:29 <kallisti> patch it
00:16:31 <Vorpal> $ date
00:16:31 <Vorpal> fre 6 jul 2012 02.16.27 CEST
00:16:39 <kallisti> https://github.com/kallisti-dev/Rolebot
00:16:52 <Vorpal> kallisti, perl you said? I never written anything in perl
00:17:00 <kallisti> think of it as a learning experience.
00:17:03 <Vorpal> nor do I have any plans to learn perl
00:17:11 <kallisti> your loss.
00:17:12 <Vorpal> from what I seen it looks like a slightly better version of PHP
00:17:16 <Vorpal> ;P
00:17:19 <Vorpal> anyway
00:17:27 <Vorpal> $help
00:17:27 <rolebot> Commands begin with ~ or $ | Use help <name> to get more help on a specific command or category. | Categories: Messages, RP | Misc. commands: echo, frink, lastsaid, seen, time, words
00:17:31 <Vorpal> RP?
00:17:33 <Vorpal> what is RP?
00:17:42 <Vorpal> $help RP
00:17:43 <rolebot> RP commands: roll, system
00:17:45 <kallisti> roleplaying. it was originally supposed to be a dice roller bot, but then no one plays tabletop games
00:17:49 <kallisti> so now it's just a lambdabot clone.
00:17:54 <Vorpal> $help roll 2d10
00:17:55 <rolebot> No help entry found.
00:17:58 <shachaf> @dice 2d10
00:17:58 <lambdabot> 2d10 => 15
00:17:59 <Vorpal> $roll 2d10
00:17:59 <rolebot> Usage: roll <number> [<diff>]
00:18:06 <Vorpal> realy?
00:18:08 <Vorpal> really*
00:18:09 <kallisti> Vorpal: it targets specific tabletop systems
00:18:13 <kallisti> that one is WoD
00:18:18 <Vorpal> kallisti, how do I make it roll 2d10?
00:18:20 <kallisti> (and is currently the only one that works)
00:18:27 <kallisti> you don't. I haven't actually make it useful for its intended purpose.
00:18:32 <Vorpal> ah
00:18:33 <kallisti> I've been busy.
00:18:39 <Vorpal> fair enough
00:18:41 <kallisti> and no one plays tabletop games.
00:18:47 <kallisti> on IRC
00:18:50 <kallisti> or IRL
00:18:56 <Vorpal> on IRC indeed
00:19:25 <kallisti> also perl is much better than PHP, by any measure.
00:19:30 <Vorpal> but I played ones IRL, and I had a friend at university who plays make campagins and plays every week. IIRC he is a GURPS fan
00:19:56 <kallisti> $roll 5 7
00:19:56 <rolebot> 0 successes (3 1 6 4 10 6)
00:19:57 <Vorpal> (and I just finished university, so I assume he is still going)
00:20:07 <Vorpal> kallisti, what is that WoD you mentioned?
00:20:15 <kallisti> world of darkness
00:20:26 <Vorpal> never heard of it, what genre is it?
00:20:33 <Vorpal> fantasy, sci-fi etc?
00:20:36 <kallisti> modern or historic horror
00:20:39 <kallisti> you could do sci-fi too
00:20:44 <kallisti> with some new rules.
00:20:47 <Vorpal> so it is kind of open-ended?
00:20:56 <Vorpal> not a specific setting
00:21:08 <kallisti> it's based on supernatural creatures. each major book is for a supernatural creature.
00:21:13 <Vorpal> ah, cool
00:21:37 <kallisti> vampires, werewolves, fae, wraiths (ghosts), magi, etc
00:22:11 <kallisti> it's an interesting mix of traditional folktale with a unique spin on each.
00:22:18 <Vorpal> reminds me a bit of that new MMORPG coming out soon. Secret World I think the name was. Pretty cool idea for it. Basically set in the modern day, but with every conspiracy theory true. Illumnati, templars and so on. Lovecraft inspired too iirc.
00:22:24 <kallisti> Vampire is very much based on Anne Rice novels.
00:22:33 <kallisti> Vorpal: yes it reminded me of it too.
00:22:52 <Vorpal> not sure what the Anne Rice model of vampirism is
00:22:54 <kallisti> the difference being that WoD is way more awesome. :P
00:23:43 <Vorpal> kallisti, probably, from what I saw, Secret World had hotkey based combat. Meh.
00:23:52 <kallisti> crosses and garlic don't work. a stake to the heart puts the vampire in paralysis.
00:23:59 <Vorpal> fair enough
00:24:21 <kallisti> transmittal doesn't occur from being bitten. the vampire drains all of your blood, and then feeds you his/her ow.
00:24:24 <kallisti> *own
00:24:33 <Vorpal> I have to admit the vampire model I'm most famous with is the Discworld model. Which is over the top.
00:24:42 <Vorpal> familiar*
00:24:47 <Vorpal> why did I write famous XD
00:24:59 <kallisti> WoD vampire is interesting. you can play it very political, if you want.
00:25:04 <Vorpal> heh
00:25:06 <kallisti> there's a whole society and such.
00:25:11 <Vorpal> I see
00:25:25 <Vorpal> kallisti, how do their werewolves work?
00:25:27 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:25:31 -!- itidus20 has joined.
00:25:37 <kallisti> strangely.
00:25:40 <Vorpal> I always found werewolves more interesting than vampires
00:25:51 <Vorpal> kallisti, carry on
00:26:13 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
00:26:43 <Vorpal> kallisti, how does it work then?
00:27:17 <kallisti> the werewolves deviate more from traditional folktale. they live in packs as opposed to being solitary monsters. they can shapeshift at will. they can traverse the Umbra (the spirit world) and talk to spirits. they're servants of Gaia in a war against "the Wyrm" which is basically a metaphor for corruption in whatever form you want to interpret it.
00:27:38 <Vorpal> heh
00:27:40 <Vorpal> kallisti, and full moon?
00:27:50 <Vorpal> does it force shifting or anything at all?
00:27:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:27:53 <kallisti> there's also some interesting tech-based stuff. There's a tribe called the Glass Walkers which are "urban werewolves." the theme is high-tech.
00:28:08 <Vorpal> wow, that is pretty nice
00:28:15 <kallisti> Vorpal: the first time a werewolf shifts is involuntary, and they lose control of themselves.
00:28:24 <Vorpal> right
00:28:51 <kallisti> also it's not just "werewolf". there's a full spectrum from human to wolf, with 5 forms.
00:29:06 <kallisti> there's also "breed", which is your original form. you could play as a werewolf that was born a wolf, for example.
00:29:15 <Vorpal> ah
00:29:22 <Vorpal> pretty cool
00:29:42 <kallisti> and then the metis breed is born as a werewolf, which happens when 2 werewolves mate. they're usually deformed in some way, and it's seen as a crime to do so.
00:29:52 <kallisti> (which is a convenient way to keep away furries in an online setting. :D )
00:29:59 <Vorpal> XD
00:30:28 <Vorpal> kallisti, with online you mean on computer? Or is that a weird way to describe LARPing?
00:30:36 <itidus21> lol @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves
00:30:36 <rolebot> Error
00:30:42 <kallisti> I used to play on a RP-only MUD.
00:30:53 <kallisti> it was basically a MUD with any kind of combat/mob logic stripped out, with dice rollers added in.
00:30:55 <Vorpal> why did rolebot just say error?
00:31:05 <kallisti> this is a good question
00:31:09 <itidus21> as opposed to werewolves which are non-fiction
00:31:18 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves
00:31:18 <rolebot> Category:Fictional werewolves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:31:27 <monqy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves
00:31:29 <kallisti> ah
00:31:31 <Vorpal> aha
00:31:32 <Vorpal> it does that
00:31:35 <Vorpal> kind of annoying
00:31:40 <itidus21> "Werewolves that appear only in legend or folklore do not belong in this category."
00:31:43 <Vorpal> what if I link an image
00:31:44 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat*egory:Fictional_werewolves*
00:31:46 <Vorpal> or a huge iso file
00:31:46 <rolebot> Cat*egory:Fictional werewolves* - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
00:31:46 <kallisti> er
00:31:47 <Vorpal> or something
00:31:50 <kallisti> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves
00:31:51 <rolebot> Error
00:31:52 <Vorpal> will it download the whole thing?
00:32:15 <monqy> https://www.google.com/images/srpr/logo3w.png
00:32:26 <kallisti> I... don't remember
00:32:29 <kallisti> I think so.
00:32:33 <itidus21> it will download all things... at once!
00:32:40 <Vorpal> hm I don't have any iso file up
00:32:42 <kallisti> I don't do any Content-Type checking or anything
00:32:45 <Vorpal> for it to download
00:32:55 <Vorpal> hopefully it just download the first n bytes
00:33:06 <kallisti> I think it's slurpy.
00:33:14 <kallisti> (perl terminology for "reads the whole thing into memory")
00:33:21 <Vorpal> ouch
00:33:21 <monqy> excellent
00:33:32 <shachaf> monqy: You like lojban, right?
00:33:43 <monqy> shachaf: maybe
00:33:48 <kallisti> though it may depend on context.
00:33:55 <shachaf> monqy: Are you going to the BIG EVENT!
00:33:59 <monqy> what big event
00:34:03 <Vorpal> kallisti, now you know I /will/ post a 12 GB file of space on a server and make it serve it gzip compressed :P
00:34:03 <monqy> (no)
00:34:12 <kallisti> Vorpal: that's fine.
00:34:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, it is going to happen unless you fix the bot :P
00:34:22 <Vorpal> kallisti, oh?
00:34:28 <Vorpal> I thought it read the whole thing?
00:34:42 <kallisti> yes
00:34:48 <Vorpal> kallisti, well 32 GB then :P
00:35:05 <Vorpal> kallisti, or can't the bot handle gzip compressed resources?
00:35:22 <Vorpal> in that case I'm going to make it serve it uncompressed I guess
00:35:25 <kallisti> I... don't know.
00:35:27 <kallisti> whatever LWP does
00:35:29 <kallisti> so probably yes.
00:35:32 <Vorpal> LWP?
00:35:37 <kallisti> libwww-perl
00:35:39 <Vorpal> ah
00:36:11 <Vorpal> oh well
00:38:36 <kallisti> yeah I'm not seeing an option to be less slurpy
00:39:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, so basically what I described could cause OOM?
00:39:19 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )).
00:39:21 <kallisti> not sure.
00:39:59 <Vorpal> nortti, you use an android irc client?
00:39:59 <Vorpal> huh
00:40:07 <Vorpal> I guess I should take a look at that one
00:40:30 <Vorpal> also why does rythmbox seem crashed
00:43:03 <zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves <CTCP>
00:43:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, I can't click that link, what did you do?
00:43:37 <Vorpal> my irc client usually makeslinks clickable
00:43:43 <Vorpal> makes links*
00:43:47 <zzo38> I put control characters in
00:43:52 <Vorpal> ah
00:44:12 <quintopia> works just fine here :)
00:44:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, it does show a [0001] at the end
00:44:16 <zzo38> Does it copy to clipboard OK?
00:44:34 <Vorpal> zzo38, double clicking it makes it highlight this bit "n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolve"
00:44:40 <Vorpal> so no I can't easily copy it
00:44:49 <Vorpal> or this bit "tp://e"
00:45:07 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:45:22 <zzo38> Select the entire message (including the parts at the end) copy to channel see what happened.
00:45:31 -!- kallisti has joined.
00:45:36 <Vorpal> manually selecting and pasting yields:<zzo38> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_werewolves <CTCP>
00:45:41 <Vorpal> which is clickable
00:45:48 <kallisti> Content-Length is bytes right?
00:45:51 <kallisti> I would assume s
00:45:53 <kallisti> o
00:45:58 -!- rolebot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
00:46:25 <zzo38> OK, something with your IRC client; they differ so we cannot really know what each one does
00:46:27 <Vorpal> kallisti, yes?
00:46:39 <Vorpal> kallisti, I think that describe the size of the whole thing
00:46:47 <Vorpal> though a server could be made to lie
00:47:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, a accurate server would I think with Content-Length describe the uncompressed size
00:48:02 <Vorpal> an*
00:49:06 -!- rolebot has joined.
00:49:18 <kallisti> $time test
00:49:20 <rolebot> Time in Test, Indonesia (GMT+7): 2012-07-06 07:49
00:49:23 <kallisti> http://example.com/
00:49:41 <kallisti> hm?
00:49:53 <Vorpal> doesn't seem to work?
00:50:38 <kallisti> ah, right.
00:50:44 <kallisti> I was trying to equate Content-Type to text/html
00:50:47 <kallisti> instead of substring
00:50:59 <kallisti> `load Url
00:51:02 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: load: not found
00:51:04 <kallisti> $load Url
00:51:04 <rolebot> Done.
00:51:08 <kallisti> http://example.com/
00:51:09 <rolebot> IANA — Example domains
00:52:01 <kallisti> I wonder how much traffic the example domains get.
01:00:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
01:17:17 -!- edwardk has joined.
01:36:07 <Vorpal> $time
01:36:08 <rolebot> Time in UTC: 2012-07-06 01:36
01:38:10 <quintopia> $time quintopia
01:38:12 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:42:26 <oerjan> $time Utopia
01:42:27 <rolebot> Time in Utopia, Australia (GMT+10): 2012-07-06 11:42
01:52:10 <itidus21> :-D
01:53:15 <oerjan> CLOSE TO HOME?
01:53:28 <itidus21> actually , might not be
01:53:32 <shachaf> $time oerjan
01:53:33 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:53:40 <shachaf> Use less bot.
01:54:34 <itidus21> the distance from me to utopia is probably a very long way
01:55:05 <kallisti> $time time
01:55:06 <rolebot> Time in Time, Indonesia (GMT+7): 2012-07-06 08:55
01:55:22 <quintopia> $time climax
01:55:23 <rolebot> Time in Climax, Canada (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 19:55
01:55:35 <kallisti> $time cumming
01:55:36 <quintopia> $time cumming
01:55:38 <rolebot> Time in Cumming, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 20:55
01:55:38 <rolebot> Time in Cumming, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 20:55
01:55:38 <kallisti> HA
01:55:44 <quintopia> owe me a coke
01:55:51 <itidus21> $time aircraft
01:55:52 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:55:57 <kallisti> 21:55 < kallisti> $time cumming
01:55:58 <kallisti> 21:55 < quintopia> $time cumming
01:55:59 <kallisti> psssssh
01:56:07 <kallisti> NOT ACCORDING TO MY LOGS.
01:56:09 <itidus21> i may have spelled that wrong
01:56:17 <kallisti> ......
01:56:27 <quintopia> its not who says it first. it's who says "owe me a coke" first :P
01:57:14 <itidus21> $time hoppers
01:57:15 <rolebot> Time in Hoppers, Germany (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 03:57
01:57:21 <itidus21> hehe
01:57:24 <itidus21> $time hoppers crossing
01:57:25 <rolebot> Time in Hoppers Crossing, Australia (GMT+10): 2012-07-06 11:57
01:58:17 <kallisti> $time happy
01:58:19 <rolebot> Time in Happy, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 21:58
01:58:26 <itidus21> $time angry
01:58:28 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:58:33 <kallisti> the API actually can grab multiple locations
01:58:34 <itidus21> $time ambivalent
01:58:35 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:58:37 <kallisti> but I always take the first one.
01:58:41 <itidus21> $time sad
01:58:42 <rolebot> Time in sad, Safford, United States (GMT-7): 2012-07-05 18:58
01:58:56 <itidus21> $time eso
01:58:57 <rolebot> Time in eso, Espanola, United States (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 19:58
01:59:02 <itidus21> $time esot
01:59:03 <rolebot> Time in Esotreaky, Madagascar (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 04:59
01:59:09 <itidus21> $time esote
01:59:10 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:59:16 <itidus21> $time esol
01:59:17 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:59:32 <quintopia> $time dope
01:59:34 <rolebot> Time in Dope, Sri Lanka (GMT+5.50): 2012-07-06 07:29
01:59:38 <itidus21> $time befu
01:59:41 <quintopia> $time boring
01:59:43 <rolebot> Time in Befu, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 10:59
01:59:43 <rolebot> Time in Boring, Denmark (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 03:59
01:59:47 <itidus21> $time befun
01:59:48 <rolebot> Invalid query.
01:59:58 <itidus21> $time brain
01:59:59 <rolebot> Time in Brain, France (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 03:59
02:00:01 <quintopia> $time new
02:00:02 <rolebot> Time in new, Lakefront, United States (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:00
02:00:09 <itidus21> $time brainf
02:00:10 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:00:25 <itidus21> $time fuck
02:00:26 <rolebot> Time in Fuckersberg, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:00
02:00:41 <kallisti> lol fuckersberg
02:00:45 <kallisti> I've never seen that one
02:00:48 <kallisti> just Fucking, Austria
02:00:58 <itidus21> $time fucki
02:00:58 <ion> :-D
02:00:59 <rolebot> Time in Fucking, Austria (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:00
02:01:35 <itidus21> $time fucko
02:01:36 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:01:45 <kallisti> $time dickbutts
02:01:46 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:01:51 <itidus21> $time dick
02:01:52 <rolebot> Time in Dick, Mozambique (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:01
02:01:56 <quintopia> $time cock
02:01:57 <rolebot> Time in Cockeysville, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:01
02:02:09 <quintopia> $time crook
02:02:10 <rolebot> Time in Crook, United Kingdom (GMT+1): 2012-07-06 03:02
02:02:17 <quintopia> $time jail
02:02:18 <rolebot> Time in Jaila, Liberia (GMT+0): 2012-07-06 02:02
02:02:28 <quintopia> $time perdition
02:02:29 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:02:36 <itidus21> $time scum
02:02:37 <rolebot> Time in Scumpia, Moldova (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 05:02
02:02:41 <quintopia> so i guess there is no road to perdition
02:02:47 <quintopia> $time shawshank
02:02:48 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:02:50 <quintopia> aw
02:02:54 <kallisti> $time google
02:02:55 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:03:25 <itidus21> $time micro
02:03:26 <rolebot> Time in Micro, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:03
02:03:57 <quintopia> $time hell
02:03:58 <rolebot> Time in Hell, Norway (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:03
02:04:03 <quintopia> $time heaven
02:04:03 <rolebot> Time in Heaven Heights, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:04
02:04:17 <itidus21> $time road
02:04:18 <rolebot> Time in Road, Ireland (GMT+1): 2012-07-06 03:04
02:04:28 <quintopia> $time cube
02:04:29 <rolebot> Time in Cube, Ecuador (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:04
02:04:45 <itidus21> $time poly
02:04:46 <rolebot> Time in Poly, Haiti (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:04
02:04:46 <quintopia> hey thats my time zone
02:04:49 <itidus21> $time polyg
02:04:50 <rolebot> Time in Polyginskaya, Russia (GMT+4): 2012-07-06 06:04
02:05:27 <itidus21> $time obama
02:05:28 <rolebot> Time in Obama, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 11:05
02:08:25 <oerjan> $time limbo
02:08:26 <rolebot> Time in Limbo, Philippines (GMT+8): 2012-07-06 10:08
02:08:53 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:09:01 <oerjan> $time sun
02:09:03 <rolebot> Time in sun, Sun Valley, United States (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 20:09
02:10:27 <oerjan> $time moon
02:10:28 <rolebot> Time in Moon, France (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:10
02:10:35 <oerjan> $time venus
02:10:36 <rolebot> Time in Venus, Angola (GMT+1): 2012-07-06 03:10
02:10:42 <oerjan> $time mercury
02:10:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:10:43 <rolebot> Time in Mercury, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:10
02:10:48 <oerjan> $time mars
02:10:49 <rolebot> Time in Mars, Belarus (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 05:10
02:10:53 <oerjan> $time jupiter
02:10:54 <rolebot> Time in Jupiter, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:10
02:10:59 <oerjan> $time saturn
02:11:00 <rolebot> Time in Saturn, Russia (GMT+7): 2012-07-06 09:11
02:11:04 <oerjan> $time uranus
02:11:06 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:11:25 <oerjan> ...someone didn't want to be part of that joke.
02:11:30 <oerjan> $time neptune
02:11:32 <rolebot> Time in Neptune, Canada (GMT-6): 2012-07-05 20:11
02:11:50 <oerjan> $time earth
02:11:51 <rolebot> Time in Earth, United States Of America (GMT-5): 2012-07-05 21:11
02:12:34 <oerjan> $time betelgeuse
02:12:35 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:12:43 <oerjan> $time sirius
02:12:44 <rolebot> Time in Siriusu, Japan (GMT+9): 2012-07-06 11:12
02:13:13 <oerjan> $time surely
02:13:14 <rolebot> Invalid query.
02:13:18 <oerjan> $time shirley
02:13:19 <rolebot> Time in Shirley, United States Of America (GMT-4): 2012-07-05 22:13
02:13:29 <itidus21> $time pluto
02:13:30 <rolebot> Time in Pluto, Philippines (GMT+8): 2012-07-06 10:13
02:16:08 <oerjan> $time ceres
02:16:09 <rolebot> Time in Ceres, South Africa (GMT+2): 2012-07-06 04:16
02:16:13 <oerjan> $time eris
02:16:14 <rolebot> Time in Eris, Indonesia (GMT+8): 2012-07-06 10:16
02:16:27 <kallisti> >_>
02:16:33 <kallisti> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/security/advisory/2719615
02:16:35 <rolebot> Microsoft Security Advisory (2719615): Vulnerability in Microsoft XML Core Services Could Allow Remote Code Execution
02:16:36 <oerjan> $time kallisti
02:16:37 <rolebot> Time in Kallisti, Greece (GMT+3): 2012-07-06 05:16
02:17:18 <kallisti> so this was announced June 12, and was known by attackers before it was announced.
02:17:21 <kallisti> no patch.
02:17:58 -!- FireFly has joined.
03:18:47 -!- simpleirc1 has joined.
03:19:43 -!- simpleirc1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
03:36:52 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
03:37:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
04:00:50 <zzo38> I had idea make up a card in Magic: the Gathering that makes all objects the same name until the end of the turn.
04:03:46 <copumpkin> which name would that be?
04:06:05 <zzo38> The card could specify the name, or it could be made to allow the player who used the card to select the name from any card that both players can see.
04:07:51 <zzo38> There are some things that happen regardless of which way it is, such as legendary permanents being discarded and the Urza Tower only provide one mana.
04:09:05 <zzo38> And if you have a card that allow you to guess the name of card in opponent's hand you can guess for sure (if they have any cards) unless they get discarded or shuffled or they draw new cards or whatever (since in most cases, objects are reset if they move to another zone).
04:11:58 <zzo38> But of course if it does even affect cards in hand you still would have to know which cards have been just picked up and so on
05:08:57 -!- newsham has left.
05:09:17 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
06:27:42 <itidus21> http://www.ezo-beer.com/pictures/logos/fucking-hell.jpg
06:34:48 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
06:56:19 <Dovregubben> anyone here use Linux?
06:58:11 <zzo38> I use Linux but not here
07:12:54 <Dovregubben> I hate windows...
07:13:48 <Dovregubben> I had to install SolidWorks for school.... so I installed windows (xp) on my own hardware for the first time in a decade
07:13:52 <zzo38> I don't like Windows much either
07:14:03 <Dovregubben> now it's clobbering grub every time I boot to Windows
07:14:15 <Dovregubben> and not like overwriting it with ntldr
07:14:20 <zzo38> But Windows is what I currently have in my computer
07:14:22 <Dovregubben> it's making the whole computer unbootable
07:14:29 -!- edwardk has joined.
07:14:38 <Dovregubben> gamer?
07:15:34 <Dovregubben> I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard someone say:
07:15:55 <zzo38> Complain to SolidWorks; they make software that mixes up the bootloader so you have to somehow override the Windows system call to instead make it write a file
07:16:08 <zzo38> Or install a second hard drive
07:16:15 <fizzie> I think I've had an XP in a dual-boot thing and it only clobbered grub when installing.
07:16:42 <Dovregubben> "I would totally use Linux if I could play [Diablo, WoW, Skyrim, etc...]
07:16:43 <zzo38> You may have to complain to Windows too
07:16:43 <Dovregubben> "
07:16:48 <Dovregubben> huh?
07:16:58 <zzo38> Dovregubben: I don't play any of those games on my computer
07:17:08 <Dovregubben> I don't think it's SolidWorks' fault
07:17:17 <Dovregubben> I'm pretty sure it's mse
07:17:21 <zzo38> Maybe install a second hard drive that might fix it.
07:17:26 <Dovregubben> hmm...
07:17:26 <fizzie> Certainly pre-XP and post-XP versions have been reasonably grub-friendly, so I'd assume XP "normally" is too.
07:17:30 <Dovregubben> second hard drive in a laptop
07:17:33 <Dovregubben> not really practical
07:17:48 <zzo38> O, it is laptop computer.
07:18:18 <Dovregubben> zzo38: then why run Windows?
07:18:24 <zzo38> I have written many computer games and play some computer games, often DOS games
07:18:37 <zzo38> Dovregubben: Because my computer included it and I did not change it.
07:18:37 <fizzie> Dovregubben: You can always do the grub-in-Windows-boot-menu thing if you think that might work better.
07:20:33 <fizzie> (The "let Windows have the MBR, install grub on a boot sector somewhere, dd it into a file, add it into boot.ini" thing, that is.)
07:23:04 <Dovregubben> screw it.... I'll just live with booting from USB until the end of the quarter
07:23:47 <zzo38> I don't like Diablo, WoW, Skyrim, etc. Game I play are often text-adventure games, game I made myself using QBASIC, games designed for NES/Famicom (although I have not yet written any NES game), game with MegaZeux (I have made some MegaZeux games too), etc.
07:24:30 <Dovregubben> I meant no offense
07:24:44 <zzo38> I did not feel offended
07:25:07 <zzo38> Nor do I care; I believe in freedom of speech.
07:26:10 <Dovregubben> I just can't think of a single reason for the average user to use windows other than video games
07:26:49 <fizzie> How about things like SolidWorks?-)
07:26:57 <fizzie> Oh, "average".
07:27:03 <fizzie> I guess that depends on the definition.
07:27:07 <Dovregubben> I will admit that I have a windows virtual machine for the one time a year that I actually need Window for something
07:27:13 <zzo38> I explained; the only reason I have it is because it already has Windows.
07:27:55 <zzo38> When the Windows breaks I will put Linux on.
07:28:13 <fizzie> I know someone who uses Linux exclusively but runs PowerPoint in VirtualBox for presentation-making purposes, since OpenOffice Impress is so bad, and he likes graphical presentation-making things.
07:28:29 <Dovregubben> yeah, OpenOffice is pretty awful
07:28:52 <Dovregubben> I've been using Google docs for a while
07:28:59 <Dovregubben> it's also slow
07:29:07 <zzo38> Is OpenOffice Impress so bad? Some people hate OpenOffice but prefer LibreOffice. However I have seen someone who has used OpenOffice Impress to make any slideshow presentations they wanted
07:29:44 <fizzie> I'm sure it's not bad enough to be completely unusable, but I think it's pretty bad.
07:30:22 <fizzie> Also, if you have someone else's PowerPoint presentation to work from, it can in theory open those, but it almost always manages to mess up the formatting somehow. (The Writer component works slightly better when it comes to opening Word files.)
07:30:58 <zzo38> If I wanted to make a slideshow presentation I would probably make something myself but if I want to type a document for printing I will use TeX which is much faster than anything else I have seen.
07:31:17 <fizzie> I do slideshow presentations with the 'beamer' LaTeX package, it's got a lot of fans.
07:31:36 <fizzie> I've used Impress only to make PDF exports of other people's PowerPoint presentations just in case the lecture hall computer in question might not have PowerPoint installed. So far they've not been used.
07:31:40 <zzo38> Yes that is one other way.
07:34:39 <zzo38> I don't make slide presentations though. I prefer books.
07:35:17 <fizzie> People keep expecting presentations in the university context. Conference presentations, local seminar presentations, group meeting presentations, ...
07:37:07 <Dovregubben> if I have the option, I write my presentations in HTML
07:37:34 <zzo38> The program "dviout" includes a presentation mode. This is for Windows though; there may be similar thing for Linux.
07:37:46 <zzo38> Yes, HTML also works.
07:38:18 <Dovregubben> the nice thing about HTML is I don't need to bring my computer with me just to be sure I have the right software available
07:38:39 <Dovregubben> I think it's been almost 20 years since I saw a computer without a web browser
07:38:51 <Dovregubben> and if I ever want to make a web site out of it, I'm already done!
07:39:00 <zzo38> (I have used LaTeX once, but I don't like it much and I find Plain TeX to be far superior)
07:39:06 <Dovregubben> just need to upload it to a web server
07:39:48 <Dovregubben> I tried LaTeX once... didn't have time to learn how to use it
07:40:48 <zzo38> I have seen and use computer without a web browser even recently, as well as install them. I installed a computer with FreeDOS once to make a database someone needed
07:40:49 <Dovregubben> or maybe it wasn't LaTeX.... it was something TeX
07:41:31 <zzo38> There is Plain TeX, LaTeX, and ConTeXt, which are the common ones. There are others too, though
07:41:38 <Dovregubben> okay, I guess you're right
07:41:51 <Dovregubben> I've seen hundreds of servers without web browsers
07:41:58 <Dovregubben> and have a few of my own
07:42:26 <Dovregubben> although I have installed Links on a few :-D
07:43:07 <fizzie> Makes for a pretty retro presentations, though, at least if it's not one of those fancy graphical linksies.
07:43:37 <zzo38> If the computer is Windows or Ubuntu or something then it will include a web browser; if it is my own design it doesn't include any (if you have an internet connection, it will include netcat and so on) but you can install one
07:43:49 <Dovregubben> I didn't install Links for presentation purposes :-P
07:44:29 <fizzie> I wonder if anyone at our university has ever given a text-mode presentation in a place where a "traditional PowerPoint" was expected.
07:45:14 <fizzie> (I'm sure someone's shown a terminal on a projector for one reason or another.)
07:46:52 <Dovregubben> I've had a terminal open on a projector before
07:47:12 <Dovregubben> at LinuxFest NorthWest
07:47:18 <Dovregubben> that wasn't the whole presentation though
07:47:24 <zzo38> I use TeX for writing documentation, for recording Dungeons&Dragons game, for mathematical formulas, for business cards, for posters, for etc
07:47:30 <fizzie> So have I, and it was done as part of a presentation, but it was just an intermission, and the rest was traditional slides.
07:50:00 <zzo38> I have written a program in Plain TeX and METAFONT to typeset chess diagrams including moves and chess variants too. It will parse algebraic chess notation and FFEN, and you can make variants using different pieces (the font includes many piece icons), different moves, different size of board, etc
07:50:24 <zzo38> Have you ever used METAFONT for anything?
07:51:38 <zzo38> Do you like METAFONT?
07:52:23 <fizzie> I never METAFONT I didn't like. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) (No, I haven't actually used METAFONT.)
07:54:12 <zzo38> It is very good to design logos and typefaces and so on.
07:58:08 <zzo38> (Including in colors; I have written a program to allow METAFONT to use all features of ImageMagick as well as its own features to create graphics.)
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08:57:13 <nortti> < Vorpal> nortti, you use an android irc client? // yes. why?
08:57:47 <fizzie> Just a guess, but I think he
08:57:52 <fizzie> 's looking for a good one.
08:58:02 <fizzie> Because he asked about that earlier, too.
08:58:14 <nortti> ok. then don't use androirc
08:58:48 <nortti> use (irssi)? connectbot to connect to shell account and run irssi from there
09:04:56 <fizzie> I think it's a bit weird that these style rules that abbreviate "Equation (x)" to "Eq. (x)" also do "Equations (a) and (b)" into "Eqs. (a) and (b)" even though the . there is not properly denoting "rest of word missing". I mean, it's not "Eqsuation".
09:05:00 <fizzie> I guess it's a thing.
09:05:19 <fizzie> "In British English, according to Hart's Rules, the general rule is that abbreviations (in the narrow sense that includes only words with the ending, and not the middle, dropped) terminate with a full stop (period), whereas contractions (in the sense of words missing a middle part) do not. -- In American English, the period is usually included."
09:05:35 <fizzie> I'm under the impression that general Finnish rules do the former thing.
09:07:05 <fizzie> I guess plurals could also be following different rules.
09:16:29 <fizzie> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920015482.do "Using the latest research in cognitive science and learning theory to craft a multi-sensory learning experience, Head First C uses a visually rich format designed for the way your brain works, not a text-heavy approach that puts you to sleep."
09:16:34 <fizzie> That's quite a book blurb.
09:16:35 <rolebot> Head First C - O'Reilly Media
09:17:37 <fizzie> rolebot: You should also check the sentence containing the URL, not just the URL itself, when you figure out whether whatever you're going to say has any new information. I mean, both O'Reilly and Head First C were already mentioned.
09:18:28 <monqy> thanks rolebot for verifying fizzie isn't a dirty liar
09:24:04 <fizzie> This is how the programming book starts: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/headfirst.png
09:36:08 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
09:36:09 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
09:53:04 <nortti> I think I know why trying to compile with oonbotti's #cc doesn't work. c2bf is not compiled
10:05:11 <nortti> #cc hi.c hi
10:05:14 <oonbotti> No errors
10:05:33 <nortti> #exec hi
10:05:59 <oonbotti> hi\n
10:06:08 <nortti> hmm...
10:14:30 <nortti> do you know how to associate external program to url scheme on links2
10:20:09 <Phantom_Hoover> > 6.6 * 8
10:20:10 <rolebot> 52.8
10:20:11 <lambdabot> 52.8
10:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, ^
10:28:06 -!- oklopol has joined.
10:28:36 <mroman> Is that esther something on the picture?
10:29:12 <oklopol> Доброе утро
10:29:39 <mroman> probably not.
10:30:20 <oklopol> my talk is in about an hour :o
10:30:40 <oklopol> help
10:38:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Oh, it's happening again.
10:39:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
10:39:13 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: +q rolebot!*@*.
10:39:14 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
10:39:35 <fizzie> Oh, it's a Russianpol.
10:39:54 <fizzie> Are you giving the talk in Russian, too?
10:41:35 <oklopol> of course.
10:41:52 <oklopol> i know almost 4 words
10:42:31 <oklopol> i have never been to a place with this few english speakers
10:43:33 <fizzie> I was in a conference in St. Petersburg once.
10:43:40 <oklopol> one of the russians did a great imitation of weebl and bob instead of giving his talk.
10:43:46 <fizzie> Those people did speak English, though.
10:43:53 <oklopol> they do at the conference
10:44:20 <fizzie> Well, I didn't really speak to other people than those at the conference.
10:44:23 <oklopol> but otherwise, i have not seen one person who speaks english. in fact, even if you speak russian to people, they run away if you sound foreign.
10:44:59 <oklopol> i've been really social here, basically wasted the whole conference.
10:45:25 <fizzie> The travel agency our university is contractually obligated to use woke me up at 6am today by SMSing me flight ticket information.
10:45:39 <fizzie> I guess it was 7am Finnish time, but it's still kinda early.
10:45:59 <fizzie> Probably some sort of an automated system.
10:46:59 <oklopol> soooo, they film all the talks.
10:47:16 <oklopol> i have this horrible flu and it's possible that during the talk i sneeze and snot just flies everywhere.
10:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Cambridge rang me up in person at ten past eight to ask me if I wanted seperate accomodation during my pre-interview maths test.
10:48:04 <fizzie> oklopol: At least they'll be able to identify you as "patient zero" for the eventual pandemic, then.
10:48:11 <oklopol> true, true
10:48:15 <Phantom_Hoover> This was on a school day, mind; I was about to walk out the door when this happened.
10:48:47 <oklopol> so did you want seperete accomodation
10:48:57 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
10:49:11 <fizzie> Today was a workday too, but I sure wasn't about to walk out the door at 6am. Nobody seems to be here before 10am anyway. (I come in at 9am as a compromise.)
10:50:02 <oklopol> there's a guy in our uni who comes to work around 00:00
10:50:19 <oklopol> and i don't mean myself :D
10:51:31 <oklopol> so is it like a thing that every conference has a really old dudde who still uses handwritten slides?
10:51:47 <fizzie> It sounds like a math conference thing, to be honest.
10:52:06 <oklopol> this is a computer science conference
10:52:16 <oklopol> i've never been to a math conference
10:52:43 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen any handwritten slides, but maybe I picked the wrong sessions to attend.
10:53:17 <oklopol> there was this guy in a conference who used two overhead projectors and occasionally also showed slides manually.
10:53:42 <oklopol> it actually worked pretty well because he could keep definitions up
10:54:29 <oklopol> usually when the proof starts there's no way to find the definitions unless you have the ability of remembering or are willing to open the proceedings.
10:54:31 -!- stlangbot has joined.
10:54:41 <mroman> stlangbot: disconnect
10:54:41 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
10:55:07 <fizzie> Last time I went anywhere I just got the proceedings on a USB stick. :/
10:55:26 -!- stlangbot has joined.
10:55:31 <oklopol> was it a cheap conference
10:55:35 <oklopol> stlangbot: disconnect
10:55:35 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
10:55:40 <oklopol> oops
10:55:43 <oklopol> :(
10:55:51 <mroman> Yeah.
10:56:00 <mroman> I should probably add access restrictions to some commands :D
10:56:02 <fizzie> It was not such a terribly cheap one. But it was a big one, and I guess they thought a thousand-page book would've been a lot to carry.
10:56:04 <oklopol> naaah
10:56:13 <oklopol> perhaps.
10:56:16 <oklopol> which conference was this?
10:56:43 <oklopol> the proceedings here are like a couple hundred pages
10:57:06 -!- stlangbot has joined.
10:57:09 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat ++++++++++[>++++++++++<-]>
10:57:09 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 110, '-': 10, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 10, '<': 10, '>': 11}; Completed in 152 cycles; Used 2 cells
10:57:14 <fizzie> Interspeech 2011. They've turned off the paper search function already, so I can't check how many there were.
10:57:17 <oklopol> stlangbot: don't disconnect
10:57:17 <stlangbot> [oklopol] Only you can understand you. I don't.
10:57:19 <fizzie> They printed a book of abstracts, though.
10:57:39 <oklopol> paper *search*? not a list?
10:58:05 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat +>+>++>+<[>[-<++++>]<<]>
10:58:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 133, '-': 32, '[': 4, '.': 0, ']': 35, '<': 39, '>': 39}; Completed in 282 cycles; Used 5 cells
10:58:09 <oklopol> i guess this is a few orders of magnitude bigger than the conferences i've ben to
10:58:10 <oklopol> been
10:58:13 <fizzie> No, it was a web thing.
10:58:20 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_cu +>+>++>+<[>[-<++++>]<<]>
10:58:21 <stlangbot> [mroman] Cells used: [0, 1, 2, 3, 255]
10:58:39 <mroman> hm. According to the wikipage it should only use 4 cells.
10:58:42 <oklopol> yeah but why search and not just a page with the list of papers
10:58:57 <fizzie> It'd be a long list, I suppose.
10:59:01 <mroman> and it even goes to the left.
10:59:05 <fizzie> They mentioned the amount of papers in the opening ceremony, of course, but I forgot it already.
10:59:20 <fizzie> 846 accepted papers.
10:59:22 <oklopol> there were 66 submissions here.
10:59:34 <fizzie> 1435 submissions.
10:59:35 <oklopol> forty something accepted ones
10:59:38 <oklopol> :P
10:59:43 <oklopol> okay coffee break
10:59:45 <oklopol> then
10:59:48 <oklopol> a talk
10:59:49 <oklopol> then
10:59:49 <mroman> stlangbot: die
10:59:50 <oklopol> mine
10:59:50 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
10:59:55 <fizzie> Break a leg, or whatever they say.
10:59:55 <oklopol> :(((
10:59:59 <fizzie> They say something like that.
11:00:00 <oklopol> yeah :/
11:00:02 <oklopol> yes
11:00:05 <fizzie> It means a good thing even if it doesn't sound like it.
11:00:06 <oklopol> exactly that
11:00:15 <oklopol> it sounds like a great thing
11:00:20 <oklopol> i wouldn't have to give the talk
11:00:23 <oklopol> and make a fool of myself
11:00:24 <fizzie> I suppose it might mean someone else's leg.
11:00:33 <oklopol> the result is most likely wrong and everyone will laugh
11:00:38 <oklopol> :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
11:00:42 <oklopol> okay coffee see ya
11:00:43 <fizzie> I think they'd only snicker.
11:00:47 <fizzie> Have "fun".
11:01:51 -!- stlangbot has joined.
11:01:52 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_cu +>+>++>+<[>[-<++++>]<<]>
11:01:53 <stlangbot> [mroman] Cells used: [0, 1, 2, 3, 255]; Last active cell:0
11:02:27 <mroman> oklopol: Now you can tell him to disconnect ;)
11:02:59 -!- MoALTz has joined.
11:03:34 <fizzie> Oh, it goes up to 255 now?
11:03:48 <mroman> Yes.
11:03:56 <mroman> 256 Cells.
11:04:21 <mroman> stlangbot: help
11:04:21 <stlangbot> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics)
11:04:22 <stlangbot> bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 256; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000
11:04:22 <stlangbot> bf_stat: MAX_CELLS := 256;
11:04:44 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat +[>+]
11:04:44 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:05:30 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat >-[>-[<]>+>-]<
11:05:31 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 487, '-': 975, '[': 488, '.': 0, ']': 1936, '<': 1450, '>': 1462}; Completed in 6798 cycles; Used 15 cells
11:07:11 <mroman> If you want to waste 6700 Cycles just to save one byte in order to produce 135
11:07:14 <mroman> and waste 15 cells.
11:09:17 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat +[->]
11:09:18 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 1, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 1, '<': 0, '>': 1}; Completed in 5 cycles; Used 2 cells
11:09:27 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat +>[->]
11:09:28 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 0, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 0, '<': 0, '>': 1}; Completed in 3 cycles; Used 2 cells
11:09:48 <mroman> hm.
11:09:53 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat +>[->-]
11:09:54 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 0, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 0, '<': 0, '>': 1}; Completed in 3 cycles; Used 2 cells
11:09:59 <fizzie> stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]
11:09:59 <stlangbot> [fizzie] {',': 0, '+': 256, '-': 1, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 256, '<': 0, '>': 256}; Completed in 770 cycles; Used 256 cells
11:10:04 <mroman> ah.
11:10:12 <mroman> That was what I was looking for.
11:10:19 <fizzie> Or +[>-] equivalently.
11:11:26 <mroman> Is it actually possible to count the number of cells and return that number in the first cell?
11:11:38 <mroman> given the number of cells available is < 256
11:12:12 <mroman> I haven't found a way to move at any point to a specific cell
11:12:20 <mroman> increment it and move back to where I came from.
11:16:03 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat +[->-]
11:16:04 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:17:19 <fizzie> I would think it is, with something like -[>+]>-<<<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<<+>>]<<++ (untested, probably has bugs).
11:17:53 <fizzie> I.e. "set all cells to 1, set two first to 0, then until we hit an empty one keep summing things up".
11:18:09 <fizzie> Possibly doable with just the single 0 marker at the first cell.
11:19:38 <fizzie> Yes.
11:20:35 <fizzie> -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<+ or something, equally untested.
11:21:28 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<+
11:21:28 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:21:43 <mroman> well okay
11:21:50 <mroman> I should increase the timeout a little bit :)
11:21:53 <mroman> stlangbot: die
11:21:54 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
11:22:10 <fizzie> ^bf -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<.
11:22:14 <fungot>
11:23:43 <fizzie> That's 231, because I removed the last +. 1000%256 == 232, and I think fungot has 1000 cells in the tape.
11:23:44 <fungot> fizzie: perl is made to bacame cum after 2 hours of more testing and...
11:23:59 <fizzie> So I'd provisionally say it works.
11:24:00 -!- stlangbot has joined.
11:24:07 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<+
11:24:08 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:24:22 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<.
11:24:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:24:30 <mroman> Well.
11:24:37 <mroman> It does not complete in 64000 Cycles :)
11:24:58 <fizzie> It is a bit of an O(N^2) algorithm probably.
11:25:13 <fizzie> And each of those copying loops will take 5 cycles per iteration.
11:25:50 <mroman> Completed in 134676 cycles
11:26:05 <mroman> > 256**2
11:26:07 <lambdabot> 65536.0
11:26:15 <mroman> stlangbot: die
11:26:15 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
11:26:48 -!- stlangbot has joined.
11:26:54 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_in -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<.
11:26:55 <stlangbot> [mroman] mem[cptr] := 255
11:26:56 <fizzie> Theoretically I would've expected it to be somewhere in the ballpark of 255*255/2*5, but it seems to be a bit less.
11:27:03 <mroman> seems to work.
11:28:23 <fizzie> (About 255 summing loops, each doing on average 255/2 iterations, each iteration taking 5 cycles.)
11:28:40 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat -[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]>[-<+>]<.
11:28:41 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 32896, '-': 32641, '[': 258, '.': 1, ']': 33151, '<': 33152, '>': 33152}; Completed in 165251 cycles; Used 256 cells
11:30:58 <fizzie> Oh hey, it's quite close then.
11:31:07 <fizzie> The 134676 number surprised me, is all.
11:31:16 <fizzie> > 255*255/2*5
11:31:16 <mroman> fizzie: That was with 231 cells.
11:31:17 <lambdabot> 162562.5
11:31:21 <fizzie> Oh, okay.
11:31:24 <mroman> @134676
11:31:25 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
11:31:40 <fizzie> > 230*230/2*5
11:31:41 <lambdabot> 132250.0
11:31:55 <fizzie> There's of course a bit of overhead for moving around and so.
11:32:08 <fizzie> I'm sure you could give an exact formula.
11:32:18 <mroman> I count [ and ] as cycles too.
11:32:32 <fizzie> Yes, I counted the ]s in the copying loop.
11:32:48 <fizzie> The [s don't seem to be executed except on entry, based on those statistics.
11:32:57 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat -[]
11:32:58 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:33:16 <mroman> That's why I count them too :)
11:33:43 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat [>-]
11:33:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 0, '-': 0, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 0, '<': 0, '>': 0}; Completed in 1 cycles; Used 1 cells
11:33:48 <fizzie> Well, it makes sense. fungot counts the jumps too.
11:33:50 <fungot> fizzie: it seems to have implemented and played with the bb gui egg before? i mean.
11:33:53 <mroman> stlangbot: bf_stat +[>-]
11:33:54 <stlangbot> [mroman] {',': 0, '+': 1, '-': 256, '[': 1, '.': 0, ']': 256, '<': 0, '>': 256}; Completed in 770 cycles; Used 256 cells
11:34:01 <fizzie> Though it doesn't exactly count bf cycles but the internal bytecode cycles.
11:34:54 <mroman> It counts [ only once.
11:36:16 <nortti> is there a way to download single packages from pkgsrc instead of the whole fucking thing?
11:36:48 <nortti> tar xzf:ing that thing on qemu on my computer is not fun
11:44:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
11:45:51 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 .(s;i<-;i \
11:45:52 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['.']
11:46:17 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .55(s;i<-;i* \
11:46:17 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
11:46:23 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .5(s;i<-;i \
11:46:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['.']
11:46:38 -!- boily has joined.
11:46:42 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .5(s;i<-;i5* \
11:46:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
11:46:56 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M '. 5 * \
11:46:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
11:47:01 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 5 '. * \
11:47:02 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
11:48:03 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i \
11:48:03 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['5356295141.']
11:48:27 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i \
11:48:27 <stlangbot> [mroman] [5356295141L]
11:50:41 <fizzie> Such a critical bot, always complaining about people's programs.
11:51:06 <mroman> He does not know how to politely report errors yet :(
11:51:21 <mroman> stlangbot: setnote err|Report errors politely
11:51:22 <stlangbot> [mroman]Saved as err!
11:51:50 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .12(,(` \
11:51:51 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
11:51:58 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .12(, \
11:51:59 <stlangbot> [mroman] [(1.0, 2.0)]
11:52:20 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .12(, unpair \
11:52:20 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.0, 2.0]
11:52:26 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .12(,(` \
11:52:27 <stlangbot> [mroman] None
11:52:28 <fizzie> Uh... in addition to "Meat tree with cauliflower", next Monday's lunch list contains "Hungarian castle cemetary stew with tree trunks". These are very esoteric foods.
11:52:54 <mroman> stlangbot: setnote unpair|Is ` special cased?
11:52:55 <stlangbot> [mroman]Saved as unpair!
11:53:10 <nortti> fizzie: where are you?
11:53:28 <fizzie> nortti: In Belgium.
11:53:36 <fizzie> Leuven, to be precise.
11:55:05 <mroman> Stlang has just so many functions it's frustrating to document them now :(
11:55:15 <mroman> stlangbot: die
11:55:15 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
11:56:14 <nortti> :P
11:56:15 -!- stlangbot has joined.
11:56:16 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .12(,(] \
11:56:16 <stlangbot> [mroman] [1.0, 2.0]
11:56:20 <nortti> stlangbot: die
11:56:21 <stlangbot> Do we know each other?
11:56:23 <fizzie> It's "Graveyard stew from the Hungarian castles, with tree trunks" if I ask Google translate, which leads me to wonder if the English menu is made with machine translation too.
11:56:24 <mroman> ` is special cased.
11:56:34 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
11:56:57 <fizzie> Also, I'm not sure I want to know what graveyard/cemetery stew is.
11:57:04 <fizzie> Dead folks, maybe.
11:58:46 <fizzie> Milk poured over toasted and buttered bread, suggests Google.
11:59:41 <fizzie> Equally unsure on how exactly are Hungarian castles involved.
12:02:00 <mroman> hm.
12:02:06 <mroman> 137 builtin-functions :(
12:02:34 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 123 0x \
12:02:35 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
12:02:59 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 123 (i) 0x \
12:03:00 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['0x7b']
12:04:16 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello,World '^Hello,\s(.*)$ =~ 0 g \
12:04:17 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['']
12:04:24 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello,World '^Hello,(.*)$ =~ 0 g \
12:04:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['World']
12:05:27 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 0 1 100 {sqrt) \F \
12:05:28 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
12:05:36 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 0 1 100 {sqrt) /F \
12:05:37 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
12:05:48 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 0 1 100 {sqrt} /F \
12:05:48 <stlangbot> [mroman] []
12:06:19 <mroman> ah.
12:06:26 <mroman> for does not collect the stack.
12:07:10 <oklopol> woohoo it's done.
12:07:18 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i(s# \
12:07:18 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['5', '3', '5', '6', '2', '9', '5', '1', '4', '1']
12:07:49 <oklopol> now i don't need you anymore
12:07:53 -!- oklopol has quit.
12:08:04 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i(s # | mi \
12:08:05 <stlangbot> [mroman] [[5, 3, 5, 6, 2, 9, 5, 1, 4, 1]]
12:08:16 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M ?2 pi .(s;i<-;i;i(i(s # | mi m \
12:08:16 <stlangbot> [mroman] Your program sucks!
12:08:21 <mroman> stlangbot: die
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13:02:13 <oklopol> oijd
13:03:13 <fizzie> Did you talk them into a swamp in the true ur-Finnish way?
13:03:22 <oklopol> naturally.
13:03:29 <oklopol> there was even a question :o
13:03:38 <fizzie> Ooh.
13:03:50 <oklopol> "does this generalize to the multidimensional case?"
13:03:56 <fizzie> Did you have a good answer to the question?
13:04:01 <oklopol> yes
13:04:05 <oklopol> i said dunno, i hope so
13:04:16 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Did you talk them into a swamp in the true ur-Finnish way? <-- what?
13:04:23 <Vorpal> I need to read the log I guess
13:04:25 <oklopol> it would be cool because it would mean Game of Life is a product of idempotent CA.
13:04:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: oklopol had a conference talk.
13:04:38 <Vorpal> ah
13:04:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does "talk them into a swamp" mean?
13:04:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: And Vainamoinen sings someone into a swamp in Kalevala.
13:05:03 <Vorpal> Vainamoinen being?
13:05:15 <oklopol> a dudde
13:05:18 <fizzie> The main dude in it.
13:05:22 <fizzie> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheKalevala "Magic Music"
13:05:22 <Vorpal> ah
13:05:42 <Vorpal> hey, tvtropes links are open warfare ;P
13:06:34 <fizzie> Also it needs some dots in the a's, I'm just hampered by this keyboard.
13:06:48 <fizzie> Maybe I should configure a compose key.
13:07:28 <oklopol> so you're not in finland i deduce? (i actually deduced this earlier already)
13:07:39 <fizzie> Väinämöinen. Yes, that's much better.
13:07:53 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm on my one-month Belgium visit.
13:08:03 <Vorpal> one month? That much?
13:08:12 <Vorpal> I was under the impression that it would last a few days
13:08:19 <Vorpal> so what is Belgium like?
13:08:32 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't recall this, perhaps i have been away too much.
13:08:33 <fizzie> It's been rather warm so far. And the keyboards are all funny.
13:08:37 <oklopol> what's in belgium
13:08:55 <fizzie> oklopol: http://www.esat.kuleuven.be/
13:09:00 <Vorpal> oklopol, the EU parliament?
13:09:11 <fizzie> The funniest thing so far has been the lunch menu, I've mentioned those here on-channel.
13:09:19 <Vorpal> oh?
13:09:23 <oklopol> and why are you there?
13:09:24 <Vorpal> I haven't seen those mentions
13:09:33 <Vorpal> Why are the menus funny?
13:09:37 <fizzie> Monday: "Meat tree with cauliflower" and "Hungarian castle cemetary stew with tree trunks",
13:09:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, badly translated menu?
13:10:13 <oklopol> whoops, kinda just laughed out loud during a lecture
13:10:19 <fizzie> I'm not sure there is a good translation, the meat trees/tree trunks are some sort of a local thing apparently.
13:10:25 <Vorpal> oklopol, you are IRCing during a lecture?
13:10:29 <oklopol> yes.
13:10:43 <Vorpal> oklopol, that boring?
13:10:44 <fizzie> Googling for "Boomstammetje" will give you pictures, they're some sort of cylindrical things.
13:10:47 <Vorpal> what is it about
13:11:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the tree trunks bit though?
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13:11:07 <oklopol> no, i just usually stop listening after they tell me what they did unless it's really close to my area or it's not too technical.
13:11:13 <oklopol> and they are always very very technical
13:11:14 <fizzie> Vorpal: Tree trunks are the same thing as meat trees in this context.
13:11:27 <fizzie> oklopol: We have a frequent collaborator here, I think for this month we're doing some sort of a dereverberation thing.
13:11:44 -!- boily has joined.
13:11:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
13:11:49 <oklopol> oh okay dereverberatification is one of my favorites too.
13:12:09 <itidus21> belgium has beer and comics as i understand it.. without actual research thats my stereotype
13:12:20 <fizzie> Also chocolate.
13:12:23 <itidus21> what a terrific basis for a nation
13:12:26 <itidus21> whoa
13:12:31 <oklopol> Vorpal: there's this characterization of star-free languages as the languages with an aperiodic syntactic monoid
13:12:40 <fizzie> Last ICASSP (it's a slightly more general signal processing conference than, say, Interspeech) the most interesting sessions were the image things I went to just for the funs.
13:12:45 <oklopol> and there exists one for languages of infinite words as well
13:13:07 <oklopol> what they proved is that the same characterization also works for languages where you have both finite and infinite words.
13:13:11 <fizzie> oklopol: Sounds kinda technical.
13:13:14 <itidus21> it's like the japan of the western world
13:13:21 <oklopol> yeah.
13:13:34 <Vorpal> oklopol, yeah that is rather technical...
13:13:37 <oklopol> three first slides were interesting, then it's just full of symbols.
13:13:44 <oklopol> and i have a headache and probably a fever.
13:13:45 <Vorpal> oklopol, I have no clue what "aperiodic syntactic monoid" is
13:13:57 <itidus21> ^&^*^&)*@^#^#*&#*(# he-hey glavin
13:14:00 <fizzie> I don't know either, but I don't think it's periodic.
13:14:00 <oklopol> do you know what a monoid is?
13:14:29 <Vorpal> oklopol, I heard it explained once, but I don't remember the details at all.
13:14:48 <itidus21> again with the symbols and the students and the lectures running overtime..
13:14:49 <oklopol> a semigroup is a set plus a multiplication operation, which is associative
13:15:04 <Vorpal> oklopol, right, I know that
13:15:07 <oklopol> a monoid is a semigroup which has a special element 1 such that 1*a = a*1 = a for all a
13:15:21 <Vorpal> oh, that is pretty straight forward
13:16:00 <oklopol> an aperiodic monoid is a monoid M such that if you take any x \in M, then x^n = x^{n+1} for some M. so if you start multiplying x by itself, you get in a trivial loop (it's clear that you get in *some* loop if M is finite)
13:16:13 <oklopol> apparently this means exactly that M has no nontrivial subgroups.
13:16:43 <itidus21> oklopol: so, something that interests me as an idiot, is the question of rotating "objects" in a CA
13:16:43 <oklopol> (group being... well i suppose you know, monoid plus inverses)
13:16:45 <Vorpal> oklopol, uh, that aperiodic bit sounds like it is kind of periodic by you description?
13:16:51 <itidus21> i don't really know a better term than object
13:16:53 <Vorpal> what with the "trivial loop"
13:17:16 <itidus21> translation is kind of old hat
13:17:22 <itidus21> need to get some funky rotations
13:17:23 <oklopol> if M is finite, and you take the sequence x, x^2, x^3, x^4, ..., it has to get in a loop.
13:17:32 <Vorpal> well okay
13:17:37 <oklopol> aperiodic says the loop is as trivial as possible.
13:17:51 <oklopol> now we have aperiodic monoids down, unfortunately that's that easy part
13:17:53 <oklopol> *that's the
13:17:56 <Vorpal> oklopol, ah so it doesn't mean "not-periodic"?
13:18:04 <oklopol> not really.
13:18:11 <Vorpal> fair enough
13:18:18 <Vorpal> what about the "syntactic" part
13:19:04 <oklopol> the syntactic monoid of a language L means you say two words u and v are equal if for any words w and w', wuw' is in L iff wvw' is in L
13:19:16 <oklopol> so two words are considered the same if L cannot separate them, so to speak.
13:19:39 <oklopol> the syntactic monoid of L is the set of words divided by this relation (it's an equivalence relation)
13:19:53 <Vorpal> huh
13:19:54 <itidus21> so the trouble with rotation is that if a group of cells rotates around some particular cell, then that state has to be encoded somehow
13:19:55 <oklopol> ...yeah i'm pretty sure that's it :D
13:20:24 <Vorpal> oklopol, okay I understood all the words and even the entire sentence, but I'm not sure I understand the underlying concept.
13:20:37 <Vorpal> can you give an example of such a language?
13:21:01 <oklopol> well that's harder :D
13:21:07 <Vorpal> oh?
13:21:12 <oklopol> there's a characterization: they are exactly the star-free languages
13:21:17 <Vorpal> ah okay
13:21:45 <Vorpal> well, that is kind of an interesting way to describe star-free languages I guess.
13:21:58 <Vorpal> not sure why it is an useful way to describe them though
13:22:11 <oklopol> for instance 1A^* + (001A^*)^c is star-free (to that's the words starting with 1 and all words not starting with 001)
13:22:19 <oklopol> so... that should have an aperiodic syntactic monoid
13:22:28 <oklopol> i'm not gonna check this :D
13:22:50 <Vorpal> oklopol, wait what, you had two kleene stars there... how is that star free?
13:23:05 <oklopol> A^* is the complement of the empty language
13:23:12 <Vorpal> oh okay
13:23:20 <Vorpal> I guess your notation confused me
13:24:22 <oklopol> okay the day has ended
13:24:25 <oklopol> i'm leaving again
13:24:39 <Vorpal> oklopol, cya
13:24:55 <oklopol> cyanide
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14:36:34 <mroman> hm.
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14:36:54 <mroman> stlangbot: df iisiiiisiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiooiiio
14:36:54 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:37:01 <mroman> huh.
14:37:04 <mroman> deadfish kills bots :D
14:37:45 -!- stlangbot has joined.
14:37:48 <mroman> stlangbot: df iisiiiisiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiioiiiiiiiooiiio
14:37:48 <stlangbot> [mroman] Hello
14:40:40 <mroman> stlangbot: df iissiissiissiisso
14:40:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] Fish died!
14:41:00 <mroman> stlangbot: df iso sucks
14:41:00 <stlangbot> [mroman] <CTCP>
14:58:03 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 0 'iiiiddis f \ fn f .<+;h d ;t f \ fn f: .$@ \ fn d \ fn d:i .$<>I<> \ fn d:d .$<>D<> \ fn d:s .$<><+*<> \
14:58:03 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> 9.0']
14:58:20 <mroman> 137 functions but no chr or ord function :(
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14:58:45 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 0 'iiiiddiss f \ fn f .<+;h d ;t f \ fn f: .$@ \ fn d \ fn d:i .$<>I<> \ fn d:d .$<>D<> \ fn d:s .$<><+*<> \
14:58:45 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['<stdout> 81.0']
14:58:45 <Taneb> Hello
15:00:39 <mroman> Must add chr and ord function :)
15:00:42 <mroman> stlangbot: die
15:00:42 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
15:03:33 -!- stlangbot has joined.
15:03:43 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 0 'iiiiddiss f \ fn f .<+;h d ;t f \ fn f: .$;C \ fn d \ fn d:i .$<>I<> \ fn d:d .$<>D<> \ fn d:s .$<><+*<> \
15:03:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['Q']
15:03:58 <mroman> > chr 81
15:04:00 <lambdabot> 'Q'
15:06:41 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiiiddisso
15:06:41 <stlangbot> [mroman] Q
15:06:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
15:25:23 <mroman> stlangbot: die
15:25:24 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
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15:33:49 <shachaf> kallisti: Is your bot still here.
15:34:56 <kallisti> rolebot: help
15:35:06 -!- stlangbot has joined.
15:35:12 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 81
15:35:12 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiso
15:35:13 <kallisti> shachaf: in theory
15:35:17 <kallisti> $help
15:35:23 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiiiiiiiiso
15:35:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] Q
15:35:27 <kallisti> but apparently isn't responding
15:35:39 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 65
15:35:39 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio
15:35:52 <mroman> o_O
15:36:01 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio
15:36:01 <stlangbot> [mroman] a
15:37:13 <quintopia> stlangbot: help
15:37:13 <stlangbot> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics)
15:37:13 <stlangbot> bf_cu: MAX_CELLS := 256; stlang : MAX_CALLS := 20000
15:37:13 <stlangbot> bf_stat: MAX_CELLS := 256;
15:37:13 <mroman> > ord 'a'
15:37:15 <lambdabot> 97
15:37:23 <mroman> this is broken man.
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15:46:42 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 65
15:46:42 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiisi
15:46:59 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 111
15:46:59 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiii
15:47:01 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 112
15:47:02 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiii
15:47:04 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 121
15:47:05 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiis
15:47:22 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 4100
15:47:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiissiiii
15:48:00 <mroman> stlangbot: help
15:48:01 <stlangbot> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics)
15:48:01 <stlangbot> bf_in (Brainfuck inspect last active cell); df (Deadfish); undf (Undeadfish)
15:48:38 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 314159
15:48:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] iissssiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
15:48:47 -!- stlangbot has quit (Excess Flood).
15:49:00 <mroman> oops.
15:50:53 -!- stlangbot has joined.
15:51:00 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 314159
15:51:01 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
15:51:29 <mroman> better than excess flood
15:51:32 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 3141
15:51:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisiiiii
15:51:55 <mroman> stlangbot: die
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17:10:29 <zzo38> Can any computer golf game allow the gravity and friction to be adjusted?
17:13:42 <zzo38> In this Top Rank Boxing game now there is six rounds. It used to be four rounds
17:16:12 <mroman> To allow the feeling of golfing on the moon?
17:16:29 <zzo38> mroman: Yes, to make golf on moon, etc
17:18:09 <mroman> awesome :)
17:18:52 <mroman> Space golfing. Hit the ball in to the black hole.
17:19:04 <mroman> Gravity will do most of the work.
17:25:59 <edwardk> mroman: except that it never quite gets there =)
17:26:35 <mroman> Due to the time slowing down?
17:27:02 <zzo38> Is the center of a black hole the end of time?
17:37:44 <ion> Meanwhile in the USA http://youtu.be/pwSdzhi8-6A?t=6m
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17:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman> Space golfing. Hit the ball in to the black hole.
17:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman> Gravity will do most of the work.
17:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Not quite.
17:53:34 <mroman> Enough with the "not quite" already.
17:53:46 <mroman> Need explanation.
17:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, for one thing, black holes aren't all-consuming cosmic funnels of total annihilation.
17:56:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, something that would hit, say, the sun, would probably sail right past a black hole of the same mass.
18:02:04 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't a black hole with the mass of the sun evaporate rather quickly from Hawking radiation (if that hypothesis is correct)
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18:19:26 <quintopia> is there a way to do ssh -L in the other direction? a command i can run on computer A that links A:p and B:p such that connections to B:p get forwarded over the secure channel to A:p?
18:21:05 <quintopia> Vorpal: hawking radiation isn't that quick of a process on a human scale.
18:21:57 <Vorpal> quintopia, ah
18:22:21 <Vorpal> quintopia, -L is tunnel right?
18:22:28 <Vorpal> I know you can do tunnels both ways
18:22:29 <quintopia> yes
18:22:33 <Vorpal> I don't remember the details though
18:22:36 <quintopia> aw
18:22:46 <Vorpal> quintopia, read the man page?
18:22:55 <Vorpal> in man / searches :P
18:22:57 <quintopia> yeah but i have to read the whole thing
18:23:04 <Vorpal> search :P
18:23:05 <quintopia> what to search for though?
18:23:15 <Vorpal> quintopia, "forward", "tunnel", "port"?
18:23:19 <Vorpal> one of those ought to work
18:23:47 <fizzie> -R
18:23:50 <fizzie> IIRC.
18:23:55 <fizzie> -L for local, -R for remote.
18:23:56 <quintopia> okay but first i have to calculate how long it would take a sun mass black hole to evaporate :P
18:24:01 <fizzie> Works exact the same way than -L.
18:24:06 <quintopia> thx fizzie
18:24:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, s/than/as/
18:24:17 <fizzie> (Except the port that gets forwarded is on the remote side.)
18:28:28 <quintopia> Vorpal: actually i didn't need to calculate
18:28:45 <quintopia> Vorpal: the wikipedia article on hawking radiation give the evaporation time for a sun-size black hole as 2.098 × 1067 years
18:28:49 <quintopia> *10^67
18:29:53 <quintopia> aka more than the current age of the universe
18:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't a black hole with the mass of the sun evaporate rather quickly from Hawking radiation (if that hypothesis is correct)
18:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
18:29:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, quite a bit then
18:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sun mass is pretty normal for a black hole.
18:30:10 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:30:40 <quintopia> Vorpal: the evaporation time is directly proportional to the cube of the mass
18:30:43 <Taneb> Hello!
18:30:43 <Phantom_Hoover> A black hole the mass of a mountain would take about the current age of the universe to decay fully.
18:30:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, I guess because most of the star's material is thrown away in the super nova that creates the black hole?
18:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, yeah.
18:31:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Almost all of it.
18:31:20 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, ooh did I tell you about Hawking generators they are the BEST THING
18:31:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:31:31 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: no
18:31:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how can the gravity on the bit that is left lead to a black hole then? (Rather than a white dwarf)
18:31:52 <Vorpal> sorry, brb, phone
18:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Basic principle is, you have a black hole with a mass such that it radiates energy at an appropriate rate for you to use.
18:32:36 <quintopia> Vorpal: to do the calculations yourself, multiply 1.33820726 × 10^-17 by the cube of the mass in kg. that gives evaporation time in seconds (in a vacuum, low-gravity reference frame iiuc)
18:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> You then funnel mass back into it to offset the decay, and you have a perfectly efficient mass-to-energy converter.
18:33:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the thing that makes black holes isn't gravity, it's density.
18:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> The core is crushed incredibly by the mass of the star, which eventually gets to the point where none of the physical forces maintaining a minimum separation of matter (there are a few at play) can resist it.
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18:36:35 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: sounds cool. I've heard similar ideas before. convert our trash to energy. however, i'd rather see aneutronic fusion made to work than set off in search of an appropriately-sized black hole, since it produces helium, which we don't have enough of anyway.
18:38:45 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: do you know of a theoretically perfectly efficient energy-to-mass converter?
18:40:31 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: also, do you know enough about the SM to understand why a higgs would provide mass?
18:41:01 <zzo38> edwardk: Why haven't you removed the bad MonadTrans and MonadPlus instances for Free?
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19:00:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:07:00 <oerjan> <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiio
19:07:20 <oerjan> iiiiiiiii = iiis for a start...
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19:12:42 <augur> woo
19:12:47 <augur> im learning some bash :x
19:13:35 -!- aloril has joined.
19:15:31 <oerjan> "If the mass of the remnant exceeds about 3–4 solar masses (the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit[14])—either because the original star was very heavy or because the remnant collected additional mass through accretion of matter—even the degeneracy pressure of neutrons is insufficient to stop the collapse."
19:15:58 <oerjan> i don't think 1 solar mass black holes are implied to be normal there
19:16:29 <oerjan> i recall 1.4 solar masses is the limit before you get a neutron star
19:16:48 -!- boily has joined.
19:17:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: do you know of a theoretically perfectly efficient energy-to-mass converter?
19:17:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: also, do you know enough about the SM to understand why a higgs would provide mass?
19:17:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Hell no.
19:17:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I just read A Brief History of Time and the WP article on Hawking radiation, and there aren't any theoretical problems.
19:17:42 <Phantom_Hoover> hey augur
19:17:52 <augur> hi
19:20:09 <oerjan> "Stellar mass or larger black holes receive more mass from the cosmic microwave background than they emit through Hawking radiation and thus will grow instead of shrink. To have a Hawking temperature larger than 2.7 K (and be able to evaporate), a black hole needs to have less mass than the Moon."
19:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I discovered how to make Deus Ex fun
19:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically you get the lightsaber sword that one-shots almost all humanoid enemies, then health regen and speed upgrades, then you run up to everyone and show them your stabs while they're still asking you if you're their seargant.
19:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oh dear i spelt sargeant wrong didnt i
19:23:21 <oerjan> yes sirgiant isn't spellt that way
19:23:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm covering all the bases.
19:23:35 <Taneb> You spelt sergeant wrong twice
19:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> But you can get the correct spelling by mixing and matching and isn't that the real truth?
19:24:22 * oerjan swats Taneb for boring spelling -----###
19:24:28 <Taneb> (it can also be spelt "serjeant" in some regiments, such as the West Yorkshire Riding regiment)
19:24:45 <oerjan> sure y'aint
19:25:28 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:25:48 <Taneb> stlangbot: df iiisso
19:25:48 <stlangbot> [Taneb] Q
19:25:58 <oerjan> stlangbot: df isisisiso
19:25:58 <stlangbot> [oerjan] Fish died!
19:26:11 <oerjan> SHEESH
19:26:18 <Phantom_Hoover> stlangbot, auch merperren
19:26:23 <Taneb> > 26 ^ 2
19:26:25 <lambdabot> 676
19:26:36 <mroman> stlangbot outputs ascii, not numbers.
19:26:36 <oerjan> that's not very big
19:26:53 <oerjan> mroman: oh. not compliant deadfish
19:26:58 <mroman> alright.
19:27:00 <mroman> stlangbot: die
19:27:00 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:27:12 <oerjan> even my itflabtijtslwi interpreter does bigger numbers than that :P
19:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, also don't get microfibrial muscle because bots are hell without the melee aug.
19:27:34 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:27:40 <mroman> stlangbot: df isisisiso
19:27:40 <stlangbot> [mroman] [676]
19:27:41 <augur> what
19:27:47 <mroman> stlangbot: df isisisisosososo
19:27:47 <stlangbot> [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L]
19:27:50 <mroman> stlangbot: df isisisisososososo
19:27:50 <stlangbot> [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 1901722457268488241418827816020396748021170176L]
19:27:51 <mroman> stlangbot: df isisisisosososososo
19:27:52 <stlangbot> [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 1901722457268488241418827816020396748021170176L, 3616548304479297085365330736464680499909051895704748593486634912486670341490423472351870976L]
19:27:53 <mroman> stlangbot: df isisisisososososososo
19:27:53 <stlangbot> [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 1901722457268488241418827816020396748021170176L, 3616548304479297085365330736464680499909051895704748593486634912486670341490423472351870976L, 13079421638632078538609985886760523574926223260449315332780141613109448755835972767166862958721190041422043896326261700101811115130162354414853265170521645989511987615710527751192576L]
19:27:56 <mroman> stlangbot: die
19:27:56 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:28:02 <augur> oh, sorry, i didnt see your above comments
19:28:03 <mroman> gotta excess flood prevent that :)
19:28:22 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:28:25 <mroman> stlangbot: df isisisisososososososo
19:28:25 <stlangbot> [mroman] [676, 456976, 208827064576L, 43608742899428874059776L, 190172245726848824141882781602039674802117017
19:28:28 <mroman> better.
19:28:33 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: who are you on reddit
19:28:45 <mroman> stlangbot: df isisisiso
19:28:45 <stlangbot> [mroman] [676]
19:28:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oh what is this shit you can't get the canister for that slot ever again after liberty island
19:28:47 <fizzie> How is your brain on reddit.
19:28:53 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 676
19:28:54 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis
19:28:57 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, you have 2 guesses
19:29:20 <Phantom_Hoover> (hint, I replied to you)
19:29:36 <mroman> hm.
19:29:36 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 124
19:29:37 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiiiiiiiiiisiii
19:29:43 <oerjan> oh wait
19:29:51 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 120
19:29:51 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:30:03 <oerjan> DISAPPOINT
19:30:07 <mroman> Yeah.
19:30:09 <mroman> Gotta fix that.
19:30:10 <mroman> stlangbot: die
19:30:11 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:34:56 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
19:35:03 <oerjan> i, ii, iii, iis, iisi, iisii, iisiii, iiisd, iiis, iiisi, iiisii, iiisiii, iissddd, iissdd, iissd, iiss ...
19:36:49 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:36:52 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 124
19:36:52 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiisiii
19:36:55 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 120
19:36:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:36:59 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 676
19:37:00 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisisis
19:37:06 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 119
19:37:07 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:37:19 <mroman> little bit better.
19:38:18 <quintopia> Taneb: sargeant is the correct way to spell dick sargeant's name isn't it?
19:38:37 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: looking now
19:38:38 <Taneb> Could be
19:38:51 <Taneb> Sargent, Google says
19:39:07 <quintopia> oah
19:40:08 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: oh, yes, ok. i didnt notice your username before.
19:41:16 <mroman> stlangbot: die
19:41:16 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:41:26 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:41:27 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 119
19:41:28 <stlangbot> [mroman] Fish can not die!
19:41:32 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 120
19:41:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] Fish can not die!
19:41:34 <mroman> stlangbot: die
19:41:35 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:41:38 <mroman> but he can die
19:47:22 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:47:24 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 125
19:47:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisiisiiii
19:47:27 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 126
19:47:27 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisiisiiiii
19:47:29 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 129
19:47:29 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisiisiiiiiiii
19:47:33 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 118
19:47:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:47:35 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 119
19:47:36 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:47:44 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 1337
19:47:45 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiissiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:47:54 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 1337
19:47:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiissiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:48:03 <mroman> yeah. not very smart :(
19:48:06 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 1025
19:48:08 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisi
19:48:14 <mroman> stlangbot: die
19:48:14 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
19:50:55 -!- stlangbot has joined.
19:50:59 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 256
19:51:00 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisss
19:51:08 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 230
19:51:08 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiiisiiiii
19:51:17 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 220
19:51:18 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiiiisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
19:51:44 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 8
19:51:59 <stlangbot> [mroman] Fish can not die!
19:52:02 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:52:14 <mroman> :D
19:52:18 <mroman> 8 is too low to calculate.
19:53:52 <Taneb> :(
19:58:16 <kallisti> private git repo is up. feel free if you want to use my server as a host for it.
19:58:58 <kallisti> er, I think there's something missing from that sentence.
19:59:02 <kallisti> I'll let you feel in the blanks.
19:59:05 <kallisti> think of it as a fun game.
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20:00:41 -!- stlangbot has joined.
20:00:42 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 8
20:00:43 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisd
20:00:45 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 119
20:00:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiisdd
20:00:48 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 123
20:00:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisiisii
20:00:57 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiisiisiio
20:00:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] [123]
20:01:06 <mroman> now he's pretty damn clever.
20:01:23 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 119
20:01:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiisdd
20:01:25 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 8
20:01:25 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiisd
20:01:49 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 12
20:01:50 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiisiii
20:01:51 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 13
20:01:52 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iissddd
20:01:57 <oerjan> OKAY
20:02:42 -!- edwardk has joined.
20:02:52 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 14
20:02:53 <stlangbot> [mroman] iissdd
20:03:02 <mroman> stlangbot: df iissddd
20:03:03 <stlangbot> [mroman] []
20:03:05 <mroman> stlangbot: df iissdddo
20:03:06 <stlangbot> [mroman] [13]
20:03:13 <mroman> stlangbot: df iissdd
20:03:14 <stlangbot> [mroman] []
20:03:15 <mroman> stlangbot: df iissddo
20:03:16 <stlangbot> [mroman] [14]
20:03:17 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 72
20:03:17 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiissddddddddd
20:03:24 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 71
20:03:24 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiissdddddddddd
20:03:31 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 70
20:03:32 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiiiiiiisiiiiii
20:03:39 <oerjan> oops
20:03:46 <oerjan> mroman: still not perfect
20:04:02 <mroman> can 71 be achieved shorter?
20:04:08 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 71
20:04:08 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiissdddddddddd
20:04:32 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiss
20:04:32 <stlangbot> [mroman] []
20:04:33 <mroman> stlangbot: df iisso
20:04:33 <stlangbot> [mroman] [16]
20:04:34 <oerjan> stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiii
20:04:34 <stlangbot> [oerjan] []
20:04:38 <oerjan> stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiiio
20:04:39 <stlangbot> [oerjan] [71]
20:05:03 <mroman> two bytes.
20:05:37 <mroman> Well...
20:05:43 <oerjan> stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiii
20:05:44 <stlangbot> [oerjan] []
20:05:46 <oerjan> stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiio
20:05:46 <stlangbot> [oerjan] [70]
20:05:47 <mroman> he's pretty clever for not using bruteforce.
20:05:52 <mroman> but not perfect, yes.
20:06:54 <oerjan> mroman: it doesn't use the best form for 8 when producing 70
20:06:55 <quintopia> undf is the deadfish version of bf_txtgen?
20:07:08 <quintopia> what is the algorithm?
20:09:49 <mroman> stlangbot: die
20:09:50 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
20:10:01 -!- stlangbot has joined.
20:10:02 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 70
20:10:10 <stlangbot> [mroman] Fish can not die!
20:10:10 -!- stlangbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:10:45 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where n1 = undf (floor (sqrt n)); n2 = undf (ceiling (sqrt n)) in map undf [0..]
20:10:46 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
20:10:46 <lambdabot> arising from a use of...
20:10:49 <oerjan> eek
20:10:58 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where n1 = undf (floor (sqrt n)); n2 = undf (ceiling (sqrt (fromIntegral n))) in map undf [0..]
20:10:59 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Types.Int)
20:11:00 <lambdabot> arising from a use of...
20:11:07 <oerjan> oops
20:12:05 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = sqrt (fromIntegral n); n1 = undf (floor sqrtn); n2 = undf (ceiling sqrtn) in map undf [0..]
20:12:07 <lambdabot> ["","i","ii","iii","ii","ii","ii","ii","ii","iii","ii","ii","ii","ii","ii",...
20:12:09 <oerjan> oops
20:12:20 <oerjan> ...duh
20:12:23 -!- stlangbot has joined.
20:12:24 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 70
20:12:25 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiidsdsiiiiii
20:12:28 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 71
20:12:29 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiidsdsiiiiiii
20:12:31 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 72
20:12:31 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiissddddddddd
20:12:33 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 73
20:12:34 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiissdddddddd
20:12:38 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 74
20:12:39 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiissddddddd
20:12:41 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 78
20:12:42 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiissddd
20:12:45 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 80
20:12:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiissd
20:12:48 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 8
20:12:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisd
20:12:52 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 1
20:12:53 <stlangbot> [mroman] Fish can not die!
20:12:55 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 2
20:12:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] ii
20:12:58 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 4
20:12:58 <oerjan> mroman: iiii can be shortened to iis
20:12:59 <stlangbot> [mroman] iis
20:13:17 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 5
20:13:17 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisi
20:13:18 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 6
20:13:19 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisii
20:13:21 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 7
20:13:21 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisdd
20:13:31 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 137
20:13:31 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiiiiiiiisddddddd
20:13:40 <mroman> oerjan: I see.
20:14:12 <mroman> hm.
20:14:27 <mroman> that's probably very well detectable.
20:14:28 <mroman> stlangbot: die
20:14:29 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
20:14:33 <oerjan> this needs a recursion to work properly
20:17:14 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf [0..]
20:17:16 <lambdabot> ["","i","ii","iii","iis","iisi","iisii","iisiii","iiisd","iiis","iiisi","ii...
20:17:27 -!- azaq23 has joined.
20:17:33 <oerjan> there you go
20:18:10 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf [0..] !! 70
20:18:12 <lambdabot> "iiisdsiiiiii"
20:18:30 -!- stlangbot has joined.
20:18:38 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 70
20:18:38 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisdsdsiiiiii
20:18:45 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 70
20:18:45 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisdsdsiiiiii
20:18:48 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 137
20:18:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisiiisddddddd
20:18:53 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 144
20:18:54 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisiiis
20:19:01 <Taneb> It's probably possible to call Haskell code from Python (via C)
20:19:13 <oerjan> stlangbot: undf 8
20:19:14 <stlangbot> [oerjan] iiisd
20:19:24 <mroman> oerjan: Is that a formula which always produces the shortest solution?
20:19:30 <zzo38> Taneb: Probably if you use foreign exports, it is.
20:19:32 <oerjan> mroman: it should be
20:19:47 <mroman> stlangbot: df iissiio
20:19:47 <stlangbot> [mroman] [18]
20:19:56 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiso
20:19:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] [4]
20:20:00 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiiso
20:20:01 <stlangbot> [mroman] [9]
20:20:05 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiisdo
20:20:05 <stlangbot> [mroman] [8]
20:20:09 <oerjan> it just compares for length adding i's to the lower square bound and d's to the upper one
20:20:14 <Taneb> df iiisso
20:20:19 <Taneb> stlangbot: df iiisso
20:20:19 <stlangbot> [Taneb] [81]
20:20:24 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 81
20:20:25 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiss
20:20:30 <Taneb> No text?
20:20:41 <mroman> Taneb: Go beat up oerjan!
20:20:46 <oerjan> mroman: your 70 seems to use a too long version of 3 to start
20:20:53 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 70
20:20:53 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisdsdsiiiiii
20:21:11 <mroman> stlangbot: df iisdsdsiiiiiio
20:21:12 <stlangbot> [mroman] [70]
20:21:26 <Taneb> stlangbot: df iiisdsiiiiiio
20:21:26 <stlangbot> [Taneb] [70]
20:21:31 <Taneb> One shorter :)
20:21:57 <Taneb> Why does the BBC love Brian Cox?
20:22:08 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 249
20:22:08 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisssddddddd
20:22:18 <olsner> Taneb: he's their most photogenic physicist?
20:22:20 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf [0..] !! 249
20:22:23 <lambdabot> "iisssddddddd"
20:22:25 <Taneb> olsner, suppose
20:22:33 <olsner> very unlike wriggly bearded old men like higgs
20:22:40 <olsner> wrinkly?
20:22:48 <oerjan> wait why am i mapping then indexing :P
20:22:54 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in map undf 249
20:22:55 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num [GHC.Types.Int])
20:22:56 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `...
20:22:58 <oerjan> oops
20:23:01 <oerjan> > let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd' in undf 249
20:23:03 <lambdabot> "iisssddddddd"
20:23:08 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 128
20:23:09 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisiisiiiiiii
20:23:11 <oerjan> @let undf n | n < 4 = replicate n 'i' | length n1 <= length n2 = n1 | otherwise = n2 where sqrtn = floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n; n1 = undf sqrtn ++ 's' : replicate (n-sqrtn^2) 'i'; n2 = undf (sqrtn+1) ++ 's' : replicate ((sqrtn+1)^2-n) 'd'
20:23:13 <lambdabot> Defined.
20:23:16 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: bbl).
20:23:19 <mroman> @undf 128
20:23:19 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: undo unpf
20:23:24 <mroman> > undf 128
20:23:26 <lambdabot> "iiisiisiiiiiii"
20:23:41 <mroman> > undf 233
20:23:43 <lambdabot> "iissdsiiiiiiii"
20:23:45 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 233
20:23:45 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisidsdsiiiiiiii
20:24:24 <mroman> :D
20:24:28 <mroman> iisIDs
20:24:31 <mroman> that's very...
20:24:33 <mroman> clever!
20:24:41 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 233
20:24:42 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisidsdsiiiiiiii
20:24:43 <oerjan> INDEED
20:24:45 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 233
20:24:46 <stlangbot> [mroman] iisidsdsiiiiiiii
20:24:53 <mroman> why the hell es he doing that.
20:24:54 <mroman> *is
20:24:55 <Taneb> > undf 104
20:24:58 <lambdabot> "iiisisiiii"
20:25:11 <Taneb> ^df iiisisiiiio
20:25:26 <Taneb> Wait, does fungot have deadfish?
20:25:27 <fungot> Taneb: http://forum.java.sun.com/ fnord/ fnord here's what i was about to say tomorrow fnord
20:25:41 <Taneb> It has Java, and doesn't have deadfish!
20:25:52 <olsner> it even has fnort fnord tomorrow fnord
20:26:16 <oerjan> stlangbot: df iiisisiiiio
20:26:17 <stlangbot> [oerjan] [104]
20:26:49 <olsner> fungot: create some fun please
20:26:50 <fungot> olsner: decided to ditch class?), reminded me of something...
20:27:11 <olsner> I hate it when fungot adds unmatched parens
20:27:12 <fungot> olsner: just interested. shiro seems to be case-by-case and specific to the usage of?
20:27:26 <oerjan> olsner: }
20:28:09 <olsner> is that a disembodied moustache?
20:28:32 <oerjan> the ghost of moustaches past
20:29:21 <olsner> `quote moustache
20:29:30 <HackEgo> No output.
20:29:32 <olsner> probably spelled wrong
20:29:46 <mroman> stlangbot: disconnect
20:29:47 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: I'll be back!).
20:30:50 <olsner> hard to spell, but at least it's not 'manoeuvre'
20:30:53 -!- stlangbot has joined.
20:31:00 <olsner> `quote mustache
20:31:02 <mroman> at least that works.
20:31:03 <mroman> stlangbot: die
20:31:03 -!- stlangbot has quit (Client Quit).
20:31:04 <HackEgo> No output.
20:31:20 <Taneb> `quote cereal
20:31:23 <HackEgo> 460) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
20:31:40 <mroman> `quote ducklings
20:31:43 <HackEgo> No output.
20:31:43 <Taneb> Whatever happened to NihilistDandy?
20:31:55 <olsner> `quote Dandy
20:31:58 <HackEgo> 410) <NihilistDandy> elliott: His mouse obeys the law of the excluded middle :/ \ 440) <NihilistDandy> MY CONTINUITY <NihilistDandy> MY FANFICTION <NihilistDandy> RUINED \ 450) <NihilistDandy> The Russian's emblem was the hammer and sickle, not the fist and other fist \ 460) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my
20:32:43 <Taneb> `quote olsner
20:32:46 <HackEgo> 145) <nooga> i think of languages as tools, there is no holy grail of languages <olsner> even if there's no holy grail, that doesn't mean cups of crap is ok \ 184) <olsner> DAMN YOU, I'm leaving <Vorpal> olsner, FINALLY NOTHING BETWEEN ME AND WORLD DOMINATION! \ 198) <tswett> elliott: just to bring you up to speed, you are now my baby nephew. <olsner> wtf, elliott is a nephew and his uncle is here? <nooga> what
20:32:54 <mroman> `quote `quote
20:32:55 <oerjan> a mystery!
20:32:57 <HackEgo> 348) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> ​352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 349) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> ​352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> ​352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner>
20:33:16 <mroman> `quote mystery
20:33:19 <HackEgo> 409) <oerjan> as i was filled with zzo38 mystery at the moment i saw <zzo38> quintopia: I am at Canada.
20:33:24 <Taneb> `quote mroman
20:33:27 <HackEgo> No output.
20:33:36 <mroman> You can't quote me.
20:33:50 <Taneb> `addquote <mroman> You can't quote me.
20:33:53 <HackEgo> 848) <mroman> You can't quote me.
20:33:59 <Taneb> `quote Ngevd
20:34:01 <HackEgo> 610) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 616) [in the context of Open University] <Ngevd> "Unlike other operating systems, Linux operating systems use Linux" \ 619) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov \ 621) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then
20:34:42 <olsner> `quote Taneb
20:34:45 <HackEgo> 431) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement \ 437) <Taneb> Cut to February <Taneb> War were declared <Taneb> A galaxy in turmoil <Taneb> Anyway, Febuary '10 \ 438) <Taneb> I can't afford one of those! <Taneb> A grandchild, not a laser printer \ 444) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different
20:34:51 <Taneb> I'm ridiculously quotable
20:35:03 <Taneb> `pastequotes
20:35:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13150
20:38:43 <mroman> `quote quine
20:38:46 <HackEgo> 103) <fax> okay I see it now, quines do exist
20:39:09 <mroman> I deny the existence of quines!
20:39:30 <quintopia> sacrilege!
20:39:40 <quintopia> we will not tolerate an aquinist in #esoteric!
20:39:51 <Taneb> If this sentence causes someone to read it outline, it is a quine.
20:40:04 <quintopia> *out loud?
20:40:10 <Taneb> OUTLINE
20:40:16 <Taneb> `quote 785
20:40:19 <HackEgo> 785) <Ngevd> I don't know which version of Linux kernel I'm using atm <Ngevd> Hang on <Ngevd> I'm on Windows
20:40:30 <Taneb> That's my favourite me-quote atm
20:40:35 <mroman> ^define aquinst
20:40:45 <mroman> @define aquinst
20:40:49 <quintopia> you misspelled it
20:40:55 <mroman> @define aquinist
20:41:01 <mroman> ^define aquinist
20:41:08 <quintopia> i suggest consulting St. Thomas Aquinist
20:41:28 * oerjan swats quintopia for stealing his pun -----###
20:41:41 <quintopia> ow
20:42:09 * quintopia thunks oerjan for being too slow
20:44:26 <oerjan> you cannot thunk me, i'm already maximally lazy
20:45:06 <quintopia> false
20:45:12 <quintopia> i did not request that reply from you
20:45:59 -!- ion has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:47:52 <quintopia> oerjan: is it possible to make a redirect on the wiki so that an article/title redirects to another site?
20:48:21 <oerjan> i dunno but i doubt it
20:49:05 -!- AnotherTest has left.
20:52:01 <Taneb> oerjan `seq` oerjab
20:52:05 <quintopia> oh well, this still works: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hash_consing
20:52:12 -!- Taneb has changed nick to oerjab.
20:52:17 <oerjab> :(
20:52:21 -!- oerjab has changed nick to Ngevd.
20:54:19 <olsner> oerjab, nice name
20:54:38 <olsner> like oerjan with a cold
20:56:14 <zzo38> I try to make up the CofreeT
20:58:43 <zzo38> Is that right? duplicate (CofreeT x y) = CofreeT (x =>> flip CofreeT y) (duplicate <$> y); lower (CofreeT x _) = x;
20:59:38 <oerjan> yeah i ad always switching cobsobabts weirdly wheb i have a cold
20:59:43 <oerjan> oops
21:00:27 <oerjan> sodehow "ng" doesb't get this treatdebt
21:10:38 <kallisti> is it possible to tell find to exec different commands on different files based on different conditions?
21:13:14 <kallisti> perhaps with an -or
21:13:31 <kallisti> -option1 blah -exec blah -or -option2 blah -exec blah
21:21:39 <Ngevd> Goodnight
21:21:41 -!- Ngevd has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:32:11 <olsner> @quote PSDPPXACFAQ
21:32:12 <lambdabot> kmc says: SSE9. Where the registers are 1 megabyte long and there's an instruction for PACKED SATURATED DOUBLE-PRECISION PARSE XML AND CONSTRUCT FACEBOOK API QUERY. I believe the mnemonic is
21:32:12 <lambdabot> PSDPPXACFAQ
21:32:49 <Lumpio-> Sounds awesome
21:32:56 <olsner> indeed
21:33:14 <zzo38> Do you mean the instruction does all three things?
21:34:37 <Vorpal> hah
21:34:46 <olsner> yes, and since it's "packed", it does it on all parts of a register at once
21:36:55 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:37:04 <olsner> if double-precision means 64-bit, I guess it parses 131072 XML documents and makes one api query for each one
21:48:16 -!- boily has joined.
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22:01:00 <edwardk> zzo38: mostly because they are useful
22:01:16 <edwardk> zzo38: even if they only hold up to a quotient
22:01:39 <zzo38> OK
22:01:51 <zzo38> But do you know how to make up the FreeT and CofreeT?
22:04:19 * oerjan guesses data FreeT f m x = Lift (m x) | FreeT (f (FreeT f m x))
22:04:33 <zzo38> I don't think so
22:04:40 <oerjan> aww
22:04:54 <oerjan> then lift = Lift, was the idea
22:05:03 <oerjan> and return = lift . return
22:05:26 <oerjan> so i guess there is a problem with >>= ?
22:05:46 <oerjan> hm
22:06:07 <oerjan> perhaps then data FreeT f m x = Lift (m x) | FreeT (m (f (FreeT f m x)))
22:06:59 <zzo38> The way I did was by newtype FreeT f m x = FreeT (m (Either x (f (FreeT f m x))));
22:07:34 <oerjan> hm i think that's _almost_ equivalent to my last one
22:07:50 <zzo38> lift = FreeT . fmap Left; join (FreeT x) = FreeT (x >>= either runFreeT (return . Right . fmap join));
22:09:40 <oerjan> ok
22:10:06 <oerjan> (too complicated for me, i think)
22:11:31 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:12:10 <zzo38> I gave some definitions of CofreeT above but do you know if it is correct? Maybe edwardk knows?
22:12:38 <oerjan> i have no intuition about comonads
22:14:10 <zzo38> I did not quite understand it at first either but if you understand and then think about then can be understood better. Simply, dual to return and join is extract and duplicate. And then everything that applies to functions of those type for the comonad on (->) category.
22:15:01 <Vorpal> huh
22:16:17 <zzo38> I think I managed to make up a MonadPlus for any comonad.
22:17:54 <kallisti> Gregor: what are you using to make IRC logs?
22:18:20 <zzo38> (Actually it is still a monad regardless of w, but it is MonadPlus if w is a comonad, I think.)
22:19:56 <Gregor> kallisti: glogbot.
22:20:32 <kallisti> ah nevermind irssi can produce raw logs.
22:20:57 <kallisti> hm, but it's not as sophisticated as the regular /log command
22:21:11 <zzo38> If w is the identity comonad then you will get the Maybe monad from that.
22:23:28 <Gregor> kallisti: glogbot is entirely my own code, and not an interactive client, so *eh*
22:23:39 <kallisti> ah I see.
22:23:55 <kallisti> I think I can script up irssi to do fancy raw logs.
22:24:00 <kallisti> per channel and rotated and such
22:29:05 <edwardk> zzo38: yes i know FreeT and CofreeT, I'll probably add them to free at some point
22:29:25 <zzo38> edwardk: Is the what I have is correct?
22:29:34 <edwardk> but they aren't useful for the same scenarios where you take a perfectly good monad and wrap it in Free
22:29:40 <edwardk> dunno haven't looked ;)
22:29:50 <zzo38> I know they are useful for different things instead
22:31:16 <edwardk> your freet looks correct
22:31:40 <zzo38> And how well does the CofreeT?
22:31:48 <oerjan> don't freet about it
22:31:59 <edwardk> i don't see the type above
22:32:18 <zzo38> I did not post the type above, but here it is: data CofreeT f w x = CofreeT (w x) (f (CofreeT f w x));
22:32:33 <edwardk> that looks wrong
22:32:51 <zzo38> I know, I wasn't quite sure myself
22:32:51 <edwardk> but i could be incorrect
22:32:59 <edwardk> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/comonad-transformers/0.1.1/doc/html/Control-Comonad-Trans-Stream.html
22:33:13 <edwardk> was what i used when i first packaged comonad-transformers
22:33:28 <zzo38> That is why I ask.
22:33:50 <edwardk> =)
22:34:05 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
22:34:29 <edwardk> i got rid of it because it is a pain in the ass to work with and the instances are awful
22:34:45 <edwardk> but i have enough people clamoring for it i'll probably add it back in
22:39:36 <zzo38> I think this can make a MonadPlus whenever w is a comonad: newtype CodensityAsk w x = CodensityAsk { runCodensityAsk :: forall z. w z -> (x -> z) -> z }; (and that it seems to always make a monad)
22:40:00 -!- monqy has joined.
22:40:33 <zzo38> Is there a way to make a Comonad from any Plus?
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23:29:25 <kallisti> Gregor: so do you just run different glogbot instances for each channel?
23:29:40 <kallisti> otherwise you would have to keep track of who's in a channel to determine when a QUIT applies to a channels log.
23:30:16 <zzo38> It didn't used to work but I told him to fix it
23:32:33 <oerjan> it does keep track. and any channel operator can invite glogbot to their channel last i heard
23:33:39 <Vorpal> heh
23:37:18 <zzo38> Yes, I think you control the logging simply by INVITE and KICK commands. (You can also send commands directly to glogbot if you want status and so on.)
23:37:53 <Gregor> kallisti: I only run one glogbot instance, and it keeps track of who's who where by log.
23:38:12 <kallisti> ah okay.
23:38:16 <kallisti> I think I can just let irssi do that for me, then.
23:38:22 <Gregor> And yes, after being broken for various reasons, the channel list is currently fully working to my knowledge X-D
23:38:41 <zzo38> It would then need to also keep track of NICK in case you changed your name on many channels
23:44:51 <kallisti> Gregor: sauce plz
23:48:51 <Gregor> kallisti: See !glogbot_help
23:50:11 <kallisti> !glogbot_help
23:50:23 <kallisti> thanks.
23:55:56 <kallisti> test
2012-07-07
00:01:58 <kallisti> dear #esoteric: http://pastebin.com/LHwFWdDD
00:02:19 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:02:19 <kallisti> please judge the effectiveness of these regexes at accurately determining a list of channels that are relevant to a raw IRC message.
00:02:28 <kallisti> sincerely,
00:02:30 <kallisti> kallisti
00:04:37 <kallisti> also I just added a special case for channel MODEs
00:04:49 <kallisti> because channel modes are only relevant to that channel, not every channel the sending nick is in.
00:06:15 <kallisti> I could probably drop the KICK one with the PRIVMSG|JOIN|... one
00:06:19 <kallisti> without any problems.
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00:27:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0610/newrings_cassini_big.jpg
00:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Pictures like this always make me sad because I know they have no bearing on what the human eye would actually see.
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00:33:05 <soundnfury> Hi, I'm Edward, you may remember my fugly language "spl"...
00:33:17 <soundnfury> So, I had this idea for an esolang: "Assign"
00:33:27 <soundnfury> you can assign to anything; you can assign a number to an operator, for instance
00:33:29 <soundnfury> like:
00:33:37 <soundnfury> +=5
00:33:39 <soundnfury> 6=*
00:33:54 <soundnfury> print + 6 3 // prints 15
00:34:05 <soundnfury> has anything like this been done before?
00:35:04 <nortti_> there was one that let you assign number to another number
00:35:09 <oerjan> FORTE
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00:35:31 <soundnfury> "It is called Forte due to the mess it makes of the Peano postulates." LIKE!
00:36:07 <zzo38> O, that is why you called it that.
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00:36:27 <adu> yo
00:36:32 <adu> there was this thing
00:36:41 <adu> I can't remember
00:36:44 <adu> what it was
00:36:56 <adu> help
00:36:56 <zzo38> Then how can you explain it if you don't know?
00:37:05 <soundnfury> well, FORTE looks nice, and something similar was my idea for Assign, but I went beyond that
00:37:10 <zzo38> With no information it is difficult to help
00:37:16 <oerjan> `welcome adu
00:37:19 <HackEgo> adu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:37:20 <adu> hi oerjan
00:37:26 <zzo38> None of us are psychic
00:37:43 <oerjan> zzo38: hey speak for yourself!
00:37:46 <adu> zzo38: it was a chat room on irc.freenode.org that was about languages
00:37:59 <zzo38> adu: About what languages, to be specific?
00:37:59 <adu> it was very much like #esoteric
00:38:32 <nortti_> #esoteric-en ? :P
00:38:36 <adu> it might have been #polyglot, but I don't remember
00:38:36 <oerjan> `pastlog <adu>
00:38:54 <zzo38> adu: Well, try #esoteric-en and #polyglot and whatever see if they know this answer any better.
00:39:09 <HackEgo> No output.
00:39:11 <oerjan> `pastlog <adu>
00:39:23 -!- elliott has joined.
00:39:35 * oerjan doesn't trust HackEgo when it takes that long to say No output.
00:39:36 <elliott> adu: It was Trivial Pursuit.
00:39:37 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 8 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
00:39:39 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
00:39:41 <adu> maybe try without <>
00:39:42 -!- elliott has joined.
00:39:45 <HackEgo> No output.
00:39:46 <elliott> Either that, or beef jerky.
00:39:47 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
00:39:54 <adu> oerjan: I've been here before
00:39:56 -!- elliott has joined.
00:40:01 <elliott> It could also be marriage?
00:40:03 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
00:40:06 <oerjan> yeah so why aren't you in the logs
00:40:12 <oerjan> `log
00:40:15 <HackEgo> 2007-07-25.txt:05:03:56: <EgoBot> 3 immibis: ps
00:40:23 <adu> `pastlog adu
00:40:29 <kallisti> it would seem that irssi removes nicks within its channel structure before my event handler receives the QUIT message.
00:40:32 <kallisti> how unfortunate.
00:40:35 <shachaf> elliott: That's really annoying
00:40:43 <oerjan> `pastlog [<]adu
00:40:50 <shachaf> I'm not even paying attention to the channel and it's still annoying.
00:40:55 <soundnfury> I like how FORTE is non-associative
00:40:56 <HackEgo> No output.
00:41:09 <soundnfury> I wonder if it's power-associative
00:41:11 * oerjan swats HackEgo -----###
00:41:14 <HackEgo> 2008-01-23.txt:06:50:44: <adu> interesting
00:41:17 <soundnfury> in fact no, it isn't...
00:41:22 <oerjan> yay!
00:41:29 <adu> oerjan: yey!
00:41:49 <soundnfury> if 8=5, then (2*2)*(2*2) is 16 but (2*2*2)*2 is 10
00:42:02 <adu> that was 4.5 years ago!
00:42:25 <adu> actually I first started hacking out on this network (irc.openprojects) about 15 years ago
00:42:56 <adu> I'm an oldbie
00:43:43 <zzo38> O, that is why. OK
00:44:09 <adu> soundnfury: wuttf
00:44:31 <oerjan> adu: Forte
00:44:42 <soundnfury> it lets you assign to constants
00:45:07 <soundnfury> and apparently mangles intermediate values in expressions
00:45:14 <soundnfury> which must have been a bitch to implement
00:45:47 <oerjan> nah you just need some kind of dictionary/hashtable
00:46:05 <adu> not really, you'd just have to attach logic to every math operation, that's all
00:46:25 <soundnfury> yeah but I have a vague feeling there might be a way to construct an infinite loop in said mangulator
00:46:28 <adu> oerjan: I like how you think
00:46:42 * Sgeo goes to install Blender
00:46:43 <oerjan> adu: i almost tried implementing once :P
00:46:48 <soundnfury> oh wait no, it computes expressions /before/ you assign
00:46:55 <oerjan> but someone else did it before i overcome my laziness
00:46:59 <adu> oerjan: I've only written a dozen parsers
00:46:59 <oerjan> *it once
00:47:06 <soundnfury> so I can't say 5=5+2 and have insanity ensue
00:47:15 <adu> oerjan: I've only implemented 2 languages: Funge-98 and Scheme
00:47:35 <kallisti> I guess I can reconstruct the quit message by handling the quit event itself.
00:47:48 <adu> Funge-98 was definitely harder than Scheme
00:47:56 <soundnfury> adu: among other things, I'm trying to implement a LISP for the ZX Spectrum
00:48:01 <soundnfury> is this bad?
00:48:30 <adu> soundnfury: yes
00:48:37 <zzo38> soundnfury: I think you can try if you like to do so.
00:48:38 <soundnfury> huzzah!
00:48:39 <adu> I would recommend at least RPI
00:49:20 <adu> but if you need some z80 docs, I think I have some backups of a webcrawl about 10 years ago
00:49:33 <soundnfury> adu: nah, I've got all the z80 knowledge I need...
00:49:37 <adu> k
00:49:42 <soundnfury> I've even written an emulator
00:49:45 <nortti_> soundnfury: what kind of lisp?
00:49:48 <soundnfury> (s'called Spiffy)
00:50:00 <soundnfury> nortti_: a dialect I'm devising as I go along
00:50:39 * adu <3 GoLang
00:50:47 <adu> ooops 'along'
00:51:04 <soundnfury> (SET MAP (LAMBDA LISt (LAMBDA FN (CONS (FN (CAR LISt)) (MAP (CDR LISt) FN)))))
00:51:10 <adu> but I must say, it's really hard to implement call/cc in golang
00:51:20 <soundnfury> only the first three characters of variable names are significant!
00:51:35 <nortti_> ok. speaknig of lisp implementations I wm trying to implement version of lisp on my own esolang
00:53:51 <nortti_> is set like scheme define? is ((lamba x(lambda y(foo))) bar baz) valid?
00:54:32 <adu> what I'd like is a top-of-the-line MMIX JITer
00:54:33 <soundnfury> I'm not sure how scheme does things; set basically binds a name to a cons
00:54:57 <soundnfury> and yes I think that's valid, it ought to produce foo, yes?
00:55:10 <zzo38> What I want is a compiler to compile LLVM to MMIX
00:55:29 <adu> zzo38: do you want to work together?
00:55:31 <Phantom_Hoover> > log
00:55:32 <lambdabot> Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a)
00:55:33 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `...
00:55:39 <Phantom_Hoover> @type log
00:55:40 <nortti_> soundnfury: yes. it just seems strange.
00:55:41 <lambdabot> forall a. (Floating a) => a -> a
00:55:52 <zzo38> adu: Work together with...?
00:55:58 <oerjan> i think original lisp called it SETQ
00:56:03 <adu> zzo38: me
00:56:06 <soundnfury> nortti_: what's strange about it?
00:56:10 <zzo38> adu: For what?
00:56:20 <adu> zzo38: on an LLVM=>MMIX compiler
00:56:47 <zzo38> OK, maybe; but I am not very good at C++
00:57:08 <adu> well, what are you good at?
00:57:13 <nortti_> soundnfury: shouldn't it be (((lambda x(lambda y(foo))) bar) baz)
00:57:36 <zzo38> I can program in C and in Haskell, and some others
00:57:48 <adu> zzo38: then let's write it in Haskell
00:57:52 * adu <3 Haskell
00:58:05 <soundnfury> nortti_: yes actually, good point.
00:58:20 <zzo38> But doesn't it have to be in C++ if you want to write a LLVM backend?
00:58:29 <soundnfury> so your original expression would produce Ly.foo
00:58:41 <Phantom_Hoover> > log (1/81)
00:58:42 <lambdabot> -4.394449154672439
00:58:46 <soundnfury> because x would get bound to the list (bar baz)
00:58:47 <Phantom_Hoover> > log 10
00:58:48 <lambdabot> 2.302585092994046
00:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> why am i taking so long to do this
00:58:56 <oerjan> adu: you want to write haskell with zzo38? how very brave of you.
00:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> urgh
00:59:01 <soundnfury> ... I think
00:59:06 <adu> zzo38: that's only if you want to use their libraries, there are other ways of getting LLVM bytecode dumps
00:59:18 <nortti_> soundnfury: how does your MAP work? it has no checking for LISt being null
00:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> > 0.25 * ((log (1/81))/(log 10))
00:59:28 <lambdabot> -0.47712125471966244
00:59:37 <adu> and those LLVM bytecode dumps are all you need, you really don't need the libraries
00:59:53 <soundnfury> nortti_: Answer: it doesn't
00:59:55 <soundnfury> work, that is
01:00:08 <soundnfury> because, as I think I mentioned, I've been making this dialect up as I go along
01:00:21 <adu> cuz if anyone really wanted to compile LLVM to MMIX, then they probably know how to do clang -o stuff, and cat a file
01:00:22 <zzo38> adu: Yes I know you can use LLVM bytecode dumps with anything (I have even written a program in C to read them once). But I thought you needed the libraries too for something; well, if you don't then now I know better
01:00:28 <soundnfury> and when I wrote that example line in my notes, I hadn't defined any conditionals yet
01:01:00 <oerjan> > logBase 10 (1/81) -- *cough*
01:01:03 <lambdabot> -1.9084850188786497
01:01:10 <adu> zzo38: there are C++ representations but text and binary should be good enough interfaces
01:01:38 <adu> zzo38: or did you mean compile MMIX=>LLVM?
01:01:53 <zzo38> There is already a compiler to compile C to MMIX (GCC does this); but if it is not C then you need LLVM->MMIX
01:02:01 <zzo38> adu: No, I mean compile a LLVM code into MMIX binary.
01:02:09 <nortti_> soundnfury: for my lisp implementations I use dialecr I call LIS because of my first lisp interpreter was names lis.py
01:02:11 <adu> ok, just checking
01:02:25 <soundnfury> heh
01:02:44 <soundnfury> I think I'd choose to use short-circuiting AND in my MAP
01:02:45 <soundnfury> so...
01:02:54 <oerjan> adu: zzo38: i think there is at least one haskell library binding for llvm too
01:03:02 <zzo38> (Note: Haskell codes that I write tend to be different from other Haskell codes.)
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01:03:29 <soundnfury> (SET MAP (LAMBDA LISt (AND LISt (LAMBDA FN (CONS (FN (CAR LISt)) (MAP (CDR LISt) FN))))))
01:03:42 <soundnfury> that way (MAP NIL) is NIL
01:04:42 <soundnfury> and as for the question about ((f x) y) versus (f x y), I've been changing my mind back and forth about that ever since I started
01:04:52 <nortti_> why not just use if?
01:05:02 <soundnfury> AND is cuter
01:05:13 <adu> zzo38: www.lugod.org/presentations/Haskell_LLVM.pdf
01:05:16 * soundnfury comes from a C background
01:06:08 <zzo38> adu: Why do they all have to be presentations?
01:06:19 <nortti_> I thought you came from python background. and was used in place of if in some older python programs
01:06:39 <soundnfury> here's another representative line: (set WHIle (lambda f (lambda g (and f (or g (WHIle f g))))))
01:06:51 <nortti_> then python got (true if condition else false)
01:06:52 <adu> oerjan: oh zzo38's "Note", is that what you meant by "brave"?
01:07:47 <nortti_> soundnfury: where does g get executed?
01:07:48 <soundnfury> nortti_: that's because python is /weird/.
01:08:27 <soundnfury> I don't know. It's 2AM and I give up on Lisp for tonight
01:10:09 <nortti_> soundnfury: should it be (set WHIle (lambda f (lambda g (and f (or (eval g) (WHIle f g))))))
01:10:44 <nortti_> soundnfury: * (set WHIle (lambda f (lambda g (and (eval f) (or (eval g) (WHIle f g))))))
01:11:36 <nortti_> or is your lisp variant call-by-name?
01:13:31 <soundnfury> Umm... I'm not entirely sure
01:13:55 <soundnfury> My plan is to implement it first, then experiment with the implementation to see how it behaves, and maybe change the spec to match :S
01:14:21 <soundnfury> This might not be the most successful project I've ever attempted
01:14:28 <zzo38> adu: Perhaps you tell me if you like or hate my Haskell codes; one program I wrote is the "dvi-processing" library.
01:15:25 <adu> zzo38: ok, I wrote language-go
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01:17:01 <adu> zzo38: looks well documented to me
01:17:05 <zzo38> They say it won't build
01:17:07 <adu> and idiomatic
01:17:49 <adu> "They"?
01:17:55 <oerjan> adu: yeah :P
01:19:25 <zzo38> Why do you say it is idiotic? Do you mean mine or yours? If you mean yours, I agree because they say it won't build.
01:19:52 <oerjan> idio_ma_tic *cough*
01:19:55 <adu> zzo38: "idiomatic" means it's good
01:20:07 <adu> it means it fits in with the style of the Haskell community
01:20:41 <adu> zzo38: oh mine won't build
01:20:47 <adu> I haven't updated it in a while
01:21:00 <adu> I will fix by 2013
01:21:05 <zzo38> OK
01:21:19 <kallisti> "idiomatic" and "good" are not completely equivalent, but for the purposes of creating non-write-only code it's a plus.
01:21:46 <shachaf> That's why I write idiomatic PHP.
01:21:56 * adu *shudders*
01:22:03 <kallisti> it helps if people can read the code you're writing. idioms are things that are (more or less) universally readable to anyone with knowledge of the language.
01:22:16 <zzo38> Well, some people hate my "dvi-processing" program, because I use explicit {;}, because I do not use do-notation, because they prefer PDF over DVI, because ...
01:22:33 <adu> bla bla bla
01:22:34 <shachaf> zzo38 has many enemies.
01:23:19 <kallisti> zzo38: haters gonna hate
01:23:21 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want to make enemies, try to change TeX conventions.
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01:24:28 <zzo38> If you like this program, that is good.
01:26:09 <adu> Phantom_Hoover: like scribble?
01:26:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to say 'yes'.
01:26:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
01:26:53 <adu> \f[x]{y} <= TeX notation
01:27:00 <adu> @f[x]{y} <= Scribble notation
01:27:14 <Phantom_Hoover> radical
01:27:20 <adu> o yeah
01:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry no, this is too new and exciting for me
01:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i need to have a cold bath
01:27:50 <adu> hahaha
01:28:08 <zzo38> In TeX you can change the category codes whatever you want, including part way through a file. This may be useful when you want to load external files which are stored in a different format.
01:28:25 <adu> http://docs.racket-lang.org/scribble/
01:32:04 <zzo38> I have written some things with TeX, too.
01:33:41 <zzo38> Including: chess, Dungeons&Dragons, a program to include pictures on the page, a program to make binary specials, and this code-golf: \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
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01:35:45 * soundnfury wonders if http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/infinity.html might inspire any esolangs
01:35:48 <soundnfury> (or already has...?)
01:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Zeno machines are a fairly old way of getting around the halting problem.
01:42:42 <Phantom_Hoover> So we can split any infinite stream of bits into two infinite streams by separating the odd bits from the even bits. Each of those streams, in turn, can be split. And so on - so we can have a binary tree of bit streams, all of which can fit in the Machine's memory without interfering with one another.
01:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW that doesn't lead to a binary stream, it leads to each bitstream having one bit at a finite index.
01:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> *binary tree
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01:59:18 <soundnfury> I think he possibly meant a binary tree of bits
01:59:39 <soundnfury> but he came up with a better system anyway
02:01:16 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/V
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02:19:36 <soundnfury> Hmm... I've had another language idea, and after a little investigation I've realised that the only way to make loops is with quines
02:20:01 <soundnfury> it's a stack-based language, and instead of an "output" instruction it has an "append to the program" instruction
02:20:08 <soundnfury> execution ceases when you run out of program
02:20:28 <soundnfury> every instruction is a single character
02:20:34 <soundnfury> but not every character is an instruction
02:20:39 <soundnfury> those that aren't, get output
02:20:56 <soundnfury> We can't say "Hello World" because that's got two 'o's and a 'd' in, both of which are instructions
02:21:13 <soundnfury> but a similar program (and quine!) is: 'Sup, Earth
02:21:45 <soundnfury> I'm now trying to write the nearest I can get to a cat program, which is one that reads in integers and writes out their binary expansions
02:22:33 <soundnfury> so far I've got: ?`O`*`7`4`D`*`7`4`K`*`7`4`+`1`!`/`2`o`+`+`1`*`9`8`*`6`&`1`d74*D74*O
02:22:54 <soundnfury> where "`x" is shorthand for "an arithmetic expression producing the ASCII value of 'x'"
02:26:33 <soundnfury> Want to write an IF statement? Shove your body code onto the stack, turn your condition into (length of body or 0), remove that many items from the stack, output an appropriate number of items from the stack. Weep.
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02:55:57 <soundnfury> Here we go... ?`O`*`-`+`1`!`f`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`1`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`K`*`+`1`!`f`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`*`2`*`*`1`7`7`D`*`*`1`7`7`I77*D77*O
02:56:07 <soundnfury> reads a number and prints it out in unary
02:56:14 <soundnfury> (caution: may not work)
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03:15:38 <zzo38> I have reformatted the GPLv3 (for use in typeset documents), but made no modification to its text. Is this OK?
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04:01:53 * itidus21 realizes he is reading a description of what is essentially a commandline driven paint program.
04:02:31 <soundnfury> zzo38: I think so, but IANAGNUL
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04:12:57 <zzo38> What commandline driven paint program?
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04:19:52 <soundnfury> YES! IT WORKS! ?`O`*`7`4`K`*`+`1`!`!`f`+`2`d`*`2`*`7`4`D`*`7`4`~`-`1`~`I74*D74*O
04:20:15 <soundnfury> preprocessed form:
04:20:17 <soundnfury> ?89*7+49*6+69*1+59*7+89*3+49*6+49*7+59*4+39*6+39*6+8d*1*49*2++49*7+59*5+8d*1*49*0++49*6+59*5+49*6+69*1+59*7+79*5+49*6+69*1+59*7+8d*1*69*8++59*0+59*4+8d*1*69*8++89*1+74*D74*O
04:20:18 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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04:21:12 <elliott> let's take an opportunity to honour the contributions of "R. Koot" to the wiki
04:21:18 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:R._Koot
04:21:19 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Fuckfuck&diff=prev&oldid=6135
04:21:22 <elliott> bye
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04:44:13 <shachaf> monqy: what happened to your nose !
04:44:29 <monqy> what nose
04:44:53 <shachaf> : (
04:47:00 <itidus21> it ran
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04:52:45 <zzo38> How does it smell?
04:52:52 <shachaf> Terrible!
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05:29:48 <kallisti> my terminal should have a keybind
05:30:02 <kallisti> that emulates yes
05:30:16 <kallisti> so I can immediately start confirming everything mid command invocation
05:32:33 <fizzie> I think that's activated by repeatedly pressing the y key as long as you want it to be active.
05:32:43 <fizzie> Well, y-enter. But anyway.
05:33:46 <kallisti> despite my most intense longing
05:33:51 <kallisti> I am not a yes emulator
05:34:06 <kallisti> because I feel discomfort in the task.
05:34:18 <kallisti> whereas a true yes emulator is without concern.
05:35:01 <itidus21> i don't think it's possible to specify concerns
05:35:21 <kallisti> your a concern.
05:36:08 <itidus21> it's a turing test kind of thing
05:36:42 <kallisti> I wish CPAN didn't test things.
05:36:50 <kallisti> it takes so long. :(
05:38:24 <fizzie> But then you would be UNCERTAIN.
05:38:33 <itidus21> i mean, it's not for me to say if caged chickens suffer waiting for me to eat them
05:39:07 <kallisti> the chicken parts of my brain understand chicken-suffering
05:39:10 <kallisti> and say that they do.
05:39:10 <itidus21> nor whether the errand boy's day is ruined by running my errands
05:40:01 <kallisti> that's a more less certain situation.
05:40:05 <kallisti> yes, more less.
05:40:13 <kallisti> it has more of less.
05:40:29 <itidus21> well, i try to be kind to the people who sort recyclables..
05:40:41 <kallisti> how is that even related to the last thing you said.
05:41:08 <itidus21> its possible to make a real mess of what you put in the recycling bin
05:41:18 <itidus21> and the person who later has to sort it in a factory has to deal with the mess
05:41:37 <kallisti> factories are places where people make good money (?????????)
05:41:41 * kallisti says something
05:41:53 * kallisti says something else with topics loosely derived from the last thing said.
05:41:56 * kallisti ?????
05:41:57 * kallisti profits
05:42:20 <itidus21> my point is, do you really care if an original yes machine suffers discomfort?
05:42:27 <kallisti> no
05:42:43 <kallisti> ALL OF MY CODE CAN SUFFER.
05:44:03 <itidus21> i just don't like a specification based upon the discomfort of the system/machine
05:44:14 <itidus21> i love it..
05:45:16 <kallisti> I'm mostly focused on avoiding my own discomfort..
05:45:28 <itidus21> the jains argue it is better to pick a single fruit off a tree, than to shake the tree causing several fruit to fall. since you only intend to eat 1
05:46:18 <itidus21> <-- having another "crazy" day
05:46:30 <kallisti> so it's better to type yes by hand, than to have an infinite loop spam a buffer as fast as possible?
05:46:40 <kallisti> because the second is wasteful?
05:47:54 <itidus21> :-s
05:48:12 <itidus21> refer to channel topic
05:48:50 <Otas> moo
05:50:45 <itidus21> http://gallery.trupela.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Moo.jpg
05:51:34 <fizzie> `apt-get moo
05:51:46 <HackEgo> ​(__) \ (oo) \ /------\/ \ / | || \ * /\---/\ \ ~~ ~~ \ ...."Have you mooed today?"... \ W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory)
05:52:01 <fizzie> The line breaks kind of mess that up.
05:52:20 <itidus21> anything to save me from my topic
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05:52:42 <soundnfury> well, I think I can safely conclude that Eniuq /is/ difficult to program in
05:53:02 <soundnfury> given that I've been working on my "print a number in unary" program for the last three hours
05:53:06 <soundnfury> and it still doesn't work properly
05:53:20 <itidus21> soundnfury: sounds like it could be a hit then
05:54:21 <soundnfury> indeed
05:54:24 <fizzie> Going purely on logic, and not as an any sort of assessment of personal skills or anything, but I don't think that's an entirely safe conclusion; it could always be just you.
05:54:46 <soundnfury> http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/eniuq_0.1.src.tar.gz
05:54:48 <soundnfury> fizzie: good point
05:55:01 <soundnfury> Several things to note:
05:55:12 <fizzie> I'd have a look but I have to be in a train in twenty minutes or so. :/
05:55:18 <soundnfury> * the interpreter isn't anywhere near finished - many of the operators remain unimplemented
05:55:29 <soundnfury> * there isn't any accompanying documentation
05:56:10 <soundnfury> * the one program supplied doesn't exit cleanly; when it's done it produces a stack underflow error
05:56:26 <soundnfury> * programs have to be run through the preprocessor `epp' by hand
05:57:14 <itidus21> clean exit is defined by stack underflow!
05:57:20 <itidus21> heh
05:57:32 <itidus21> just kidding..........
05:57:51 <itidus21> the less input i have on actual serious esolangs the better
05:58:13 <soundnfury> crazy input is *welcome*
05:58:22 <soundnfury> but I already have a defined clean exit...
05:58:31 <soundnfury> "empty instruction queue"
06:00:15 <itidus21> itidus21 is not yet learned in the ways of computer programming
06:11:36 <zzo38> I made the TeX calendar to include the preset month/weekday names of: \EnglishNames \CharlemagneNames \GermanNames \JulianNames \OldTurkmenNames \NewTurkmenNames \OldZorkNames \NewZorkNames
06:15:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:15:26 <zzo38> For preset list of special days you can use: \DiscordianTraditional \DiscordianModern \CanadaNationwideStatutoryHolidays \CanadaCommon \Alberta \BritishColumbia \Manitoba \NorthwestTerritories \Nunavut \Ontario \PrinceEdwardIsland \Saskatchewan \Yukon \UnitedStates \Japan
06:16:20 <zzo38> Is there any sun/moon ephemeris data that can be used with TeX?
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06:38:44 <kallisti> $help
06:39:30 <kallisti> rolebot: help
06:39:51 <kallisti> hm
06:43:59 <kallisti> $frink 2 + 2
06:44:26 <kallisti> oh
06:44:31 <kallisti> +q?
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06:48:46 <soundnfury> http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/eniuq_0.2.src.tar.gz
06:48:52 <soundnfury> * all operators now implemented
06:49:00 <soundnfury> * documentation has been written!
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06:51:01 <soundnfury> (oh, in case anyone hasn't figured it out, "eniuq" is "quine" backwards)
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07:37:21 <soundnfury> Yay, I've managed to make a version of unary.en that exits cleanly!
07:37:57 <soundnfury> Unfortunately, if you input 0 or 1 you get nearly 2^32 digits output :(
07:38:29 <soundnfury> but who cares, it works, and it's self-modifying quining code
07:39:10 <soundnfury> the code: ?1-`+`3`*`4`8`k`D`+`3`*`4`8`+`*`*`3`d`5`*`4`+`1`!`f`+`3`*`4`8`~`-`1`~`I48*2+D48*2+O`Oo
07:55:46 <itidus21> does histogram ever mean a set of numbers independant of it's means of display?
07:56:20 <itidus21> it seems pretty obvious that it does based on a google result
08:02:55 <soundnfury> Um, no, it doesn't
08:03:07 <soundnfury> anyone who is using it to mean that is *wrong*
08:03:14 <itidus21> ok cool
08:03:18 <itidus21> ^_^
08:03:27 <soundnfury> and if they're appearing in a google result, then they must be *wrong on the internet*
08:04:26 <itidus21> its probably just me misinterpreting
08:05:31 <soundnfury> heh
08:05:58 <itidus21> im doing something which to my mind is actually pretty cool
08:06:12 <soundnfury> wossat?
08:07:47 <itidus21> disclaimer: i have never been employed in I.T., never completed a degree, no signifigant knowledge of mathematics, no real understanding of functional programming
08:08:18 <itidus21> my main interest is things related to computer games
08:08:31 <itidus21> so, i'm trying to think up a really clever 2d engine
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08:09:54 <soundnfury> You could implement your game in Befunge...
08:10:01 <soundnfury> that's already /got/ a 2d engine ;)
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08:15:53 <itidus21> brb
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08:54:17 <soundnfury> update to Eniuq; version 0.3 now out
08:54:28 <soundnfury> http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/eniuq_0.3.src.tar.gz
08:55:07 * soundnfury is probably not up to the task of determining its computational class
08:55:29 <soundnfury> it looks like it /should/ be TC, but I'm not good enough at writing quinescent code
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09:09:19 <itidus21> brb he says
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10:54:24 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 65
10:54:24 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiisdsi
10:54:28 <mroman> stlangbot: dfa iiisdsi
10:54:28 <stlangbot> [mroman] []
10:54:30 <mroman> stlangbot: dfa iiisdsio
10:54:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] [65]
10:54:36 <mroman> damn.
10:54:38 <mroman> stlangbot: die
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10:55:14 <mroman> stlangbot: dfa iiisdsio
10:55:16 <stlangbot> [mroman] 'A'
10:56:18 <mroman> stlangbot: df iiisdsio
10:56:19 <stlangbot> [mroman] [65]
10:57:00 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M .0III<+*D<+*I \
10:57:00 <stlangbot> [mroman] [65.0]
10:59:04 <mroman> stlangbot: die
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11:06:10 <mroman> stlangbot: dfc iiisds
11:06:11 <stlangbot> [mroman] M .0III<+*D<+* \
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11:27:22 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: stop being so stupid.
11:27:32 <augur> your arguments are full of shit and you know it.
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11:29:09 <mroman> stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[
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11:29:56 <mroman> stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[
11:29:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] AA
11:30:29 <mroman> stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[d
11:30:29 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!ATimeout!Timeout!AATimeout!Timeout!ATimeout!Timeout!AAATimeout!ATimeout!Timeout!AATimeout!Timeout!ATimeout!Timeout!
11:31:50 <mroman> stlangbot: die
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11:33:48 <mroman> stlangbot: p 0+++*-*+@[d
11:33:49 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:33:55 <mroman> stlangbot: p 0+++,*-*+@[d
11:33:55 <stlangbot> [mroman] AAAAAAAAAAA
11:34:04 <mroman> stlangbot: p 0+,++*-*+@[d
11:34:04 <stlangbot> [mroman] A
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11:34:30 <mroman> stlangbot: p 0[+++,*-*+@[d
11:34:31 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
11:34:55 <mroman> stlangbot: p [+++*-*+@
11:34:56 <stlangbot> [mroman] AA
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11:35:44 <mroman> stlangbot: p [+[++*-*+@@
11:35:45 <stlangbot> [mroman] Timeout!
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11:37:06 <mroman> stlangbot: p +[++*-*+@@
11:37:08 <stlangbot> [mroman] AA
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11:38:36 <mroman> stlangbot: p +++*-*+@^+@v@
11:38:37 <stlangbot> [mroman] ABA
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11:42:18 <mroman> http://codepad.org/qpPFtoyh <- pretty sucky to produce loops :(
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12:15:33 <nortti> point me to very limited text mode browser with no or very few dependencies
12:16:35 <soundnfury> wget? ;P
12:16:58 <soundnfury> telnet <server> 80?
12:17:12 <soundnfury> netcat?
12:17:47 <soundnfury> if you can't Do Protocol and parse HTML manually, you shouldn't be using the Web :P
12:17:53 <nortti> I can
12:17:58 <soundnfury> Good
12:18:14 <nortti> I'm just tired of doind it while using netbsd
12:18:30 <nortti> (wget and nc are not installed by default btw)
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12:18:47 <soundnfury> BSD := Broken or Seriously Damaged
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12:19:23 <nortti> http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/os_cars.jpg
12:19:30 <itidus21> nortti: since people are all too clever, there is a general lack of half-baked applications
12:20:11 <soundnfury> ah, lolbeos
12:20:31 <itidus21> nortti: you made a time machine out of a delorean?
12:20:32 <nortti> I'd want something like lynx -dump but without all of the dependecies lynx has
12:20:44 <soundnfury> also, I guess RISC OS would be a Rover
12:20:51 <nortti> itidus21: no? why do you ask?
12:20:54 <nortti> soundnfury: why?
12:21:02 <nortti> s/no?/no./
12:21:32 <soundnfury> it's British and the company that made it doesn't exist any more
12:21:36 <itidus21> life is too short to not ask
12:22:26 <soundnfury> Microsoft BOB would be a kid's tricycle
12:22:32 <nortti> soundnfury: but RISC OS is still developed
12:22:39 <soundnfury> (Lol, Bob. Lol.)
12:22:57 <soundnfury> nortti: perhaps so, but Acorn Computers aren't the ones developing it
12:23:01 <soundnfury> because they don't exist
12:23:20 <itidus21> nortti: in other words, all apps have feature creep
12:23:59 <nortti> soundnfury: true. but there are still new versions of it. risc os open is developing port for raspi
12:24:51 <itidus21> basically, it would be too easy to write the app you want
12:24:56 <itidus21> so noone bothers
12:24:57 <soundnfury> itidus21: Zawinski's Law of Software Envelopment
12:26:11 <itidus21> 1)download html page from specified url. 2)allow viewing of the text with tags hidden. 3) if click on a link, goto (1)
12:26:19 <itidus21> i think thats all you want
12:27:26 <nortti> either that or 1)download html page from specified url. 2)allow viewing of the text with tags hidden and links having number after them 3) display list of numbers and list at the botom
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12:28:06 <itidus21> nortti: yes.. i actually thought of that earlier :D .. should have stuck with it
12:29:05 <itidus21> except i didnt think of the numbers
12:30:56 <soundnfury> ah yes, but HTML isn't that simple, because SGML has some brain-damage
12:31:04 <soundnfury> like <em/foo>
12:31:12 <soundnfury> that's equivalent to <em>foo</em>
12:31:22 <mroman> Good old SGML.
12:31:36 * itidus21 blinks
12:31:41 <mroman> Firefox does not support SGML though.
12:31:46 <mroman> Not fully, at least.
12:31:48 <soundnfury> Why couldn't Tim Berners-Lee have used sexps instead?
12:32:32 <itidus21> you mean, you actually have to check for bar in <foo/bar> ..
12:32:45 <itidus21> terrible..
12:32:50 <nortti> ugh
12:33:03 <itidus21> keep it a secret
12:33:07 <mroman> itidus21: Shorttags.
12:33:14 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, wait are you being jokingly hostile
12:33:16 <itidus21> if noone knows, it won't get used
12:33:37 <augur> no.
12:33:40 <mroman> and null end tags.
12:33:45 <Phantom_Hoover> O... K....
12:34:04 <monqy> itidus21: what if they use it accidentally
12:34:05 <mroman> <em/foo/ and such.
12:35:27 <itidus21> I <em/hope they don't/
12:35:43 <nortti> what the fuck it that?
12:35:58 <itidus21> I emphatically hope they don't
12:36:22 <nortti> that is horrible
12:38:37 <mroman> SExp for HTML would have been awesome.
12:38:38 <itidus21> i saved tag_length+2 characters that way.. as in "em"+"<>" = 4
12:38:51 <mroman> That could have lead to use Lisp instead of Javascript.
12:38:57 <mroman> Which also would have been awesome :)
12:39:32 <nortti> true
12:39:49 <itidus21> you know, for all those non-mnemonic html tags where saving space matters
12:40:01 <nortti> well we can hope for www 2.0 to use sexpr and lisp
12:40:19 <itidus21> like img, div, em, u, li, ol, tr, td
12:40:46 <nortti> isn't u depreciated?
12:41:10 <itidus21> <underline/i don't know/
12:42:18 <itidus21> can you nest a tag within a <foo/bar/ ?
12:42:25 <soundnfury> itidus21: don't think so
12:42:28 <soundnfury> but don't quote me
12:42:40 <soundnfury> (escape me instead, it's simpler to implement)
12:42:55 <itidus21> i really don't see the point
12:43:25 <soundnfury> mroman, nortti: one of my occasional projects is to try and develop a sexpr+lisp replacement for html+js. But it's slow going
12:43:47 <soundnfury> and convincing the world to change would be infinitely difficult
12:43:57 <mroman> :)
12:44:27 <nortti> soundnfury: I'm using gopher. if it is public I'll also serve my webpages in that format
12:44:44 <soundnfury> Ooh, gopher!
12:44:45 <mroman> No idea @nest
12:44:59 <soundnfury> my brother is working on a gopher client for the ZX Spectrum
12:45:14 <soundnfury> because obsolete? what's that?
12:45:27 <mroman> yes
12:45:31 <mroman> they can be nested.
12:45:35 <nortti> soundnfury: cool. does zx spectrum have tcp/ip stack?
12:45:45 <mroman> <p/I <em/hop so//
12:45:47 <itidus21> <a href="blah.html"><em/blah/</a>
12:45:50 <nortti> soundnfury: that refering to your project
12:45:52 <mroman> *hope
12:45:54 <mroman> is valid.
12:46:01 <soundnfury> nortti: It does now! http://spectrum.alioth.net
12:46:39 <itidus21> <a href="blah.html"/<em/blah// !
12:47:10 <nortti> soundnfury: awesome. I'm thinking of getting rrnet card for my c64
12:47:23 <mroman> <b>I'm fat<i>I'm cursive is also valid sgml.
12:47:24 <itidus21> to hell with, <a href="blah.html"><em>blah</em></a>
12:47:57 <mroman> but I'm not sure anymore how sgml treats omittags exactly.
12:48:07 <mroman> but essentially the parser decides from context where a tag ends :)
12:48:16 <soundnfury> nortti: Commode 64? HEATHEN!
12:49:15 <nortti> soundnfury: why?
12:49:39 <mroman> <ol><li>hello<>world<>where<>are<>you</> is also pretty nasty.
12:49:45 <mroman> but legal.
12:50:52 <mroman> http://www.is-thought.co.uk/book/sgml-9.htm
12:50:54 <mroman> btw ;)
12:50:57 <soundnfury> nortti: meh, hysterical raisins
12:51:09 <mroman> Saving bytes is precious!
12:51:13 <soundnfury> also: LLML: http://jttlov.no-ip.org/projects/llml/index.htm
12:51:19 <soundnfury> it's kinda stalled at the moment
12:51:23 <mroman> it's like golfing...!
12:51:26 <soundnfury> a few things about it are definitely wrong
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12:53:28 <nortti> soundnfury: like?
12:54:25 <soundnfury> well, having attributes is wrong
12:54:40 <soundnfury> instead of ((a (href /foo/bar)) link text)
12:54:55 <soundnfury> it should be something like (href /foo/bar (a link text))
12:55:03 <nortti> true
12:55:23 * soundnfury has been experimenting with various approaches and hasn't settled on the perfect answer yet
12:55:25 <nortti> or maybe (a /foo/bar (link text))
12:55:55 <nortti> or (a /foo/bar link text)
12:56:00 <soundnfury> in that case, yes
12:56:19 <mroman> how so?
12:56:22 <mroman> href is an attribute of a
12:56:36 <soundnfury> mroman: they should be orthogonal
12:56:39 <mroman> (href /foo/bar (a)) looks like it is in the wrong order.
12:56:56 <soundnfury> (a) shouldn't need to exist at all
12:57:02 <nortti> soundnfury: or maybe like (a ((href /foo/bar)) link text)
12:57:09 <mroman> I'd prefer shortcuts like
12:57:21 <mroman> (ahref ...)
12:57:31 <soundnfury> every tag should essentially apply a modifier to its content
12:57:54 <mroman> > anchor ! [href "foo"]
12:57:54 <nortti> what do you mean?
12:57:55 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `anchor'Not in scope: `href'
12:58:02 <soundnfury> so (img /foo.png alt text (em with an emphasised bit))
12:58:18 <soundnfury> tags should take a fixed number of non-text-content arguments
12:59:42 <soundnfury> and instead of (for instance) having the "class" attribute for any tag, you just have a (class classname ...) tag
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12:59:48 <mroman> (a (href "foo.lisp") (p (class "no-ident") "Hello!"))
12:59:52 <soundnfury> similarly for "id" etc.
12:59:56 <mroman> (tag attributes contents)
13:00:43 <nortti> soundnfury: so basicaly arguments are written before the tag?
13:00:56 <soundnfury> mroman: (a "foo.lisp" (class "no-ident" (p "Hello!")))
13:01:03 <soundnfury> nortti: kinda
13:01:45 <mroman> I wouldn't just assume that every a has a href.
13:02:04 <soundnfury> mroman: well, it wouldn't be called (a)
13:02:11 <soundnfury> it'd probably be called (href)
13:02:35 <soundnfury> because the other use for an (a) is fragment identifiers, for which you'd use (id)
13:03:23 <soundnfury> (href #somewhere (u (strong link) to somewhere)) (id somewhere (em this is somewhere))
13:04:07 <soundnfury> == <a href="#somewhere><u><strong/link> to somewhere</u></a><a id=somewhere><em>this is somewhere</em></a>
13:04:08 <soundnfury> yes?
13:04:13 <nortti> soundnfury: what if you want normal text in link? do you use (href #foo '(bar))
13:04:26 <soundnfury> no, just (href #foo bar)
13:04:35 <soundnfury> because href knows it only takes one fixed argument
13:04:44 <nortti> and (href #foo bar baz) ?
13:04:47 <soundnfury> so any remaining args must be normal text
13:05:00 <soundnfury> that == <a href="#foo">bar baz</a>
13:05:11 <nortti> that seems pretty good idea actually
13:05:50 <nortti> are there any specifications? if there are I can write simple parser/conversion tool
13:07:28 <soundnfury> No spec yet
13:07:34 <soundnfury> only got as far as this: http://pastebin.com/Sp3srYxJ
13:08:05 <soundnfury> it's just a sample of the kind of thing I want the language to be able to handle
13:08:20 <soundnfury> things to note:
13:09:18 <nortti> how does the if work? is it that not null if true, null is false?
13:09:56 <soundnfury> headings have content, so (h1 (. Top Level Heading) Stuff under that heading)
13:10:01 <soundnfury> nortti: yes
13:10:08 <nortti> only problem: how to use ( and )
13:10:14 <soundnfury> \( and \)
13:10:28 <nortti> oh. and \ is \\ ?
13:10:30 <soundnfury> (admittedly it can be a pain in the ass remembering to use them)
13:10:32 <soundnfury> yes
13:11:06 <nortti> maybe if we use m exspressions...
13:11:12 <soundnfury> ?
13:11:23 <nortti> you don't know mexprs?
13:11:36 <nortti> they are part of lisp history
13:12:46 <soundnfury> I vaguely recalled them but couldn't remember much about them
13:12:56 <soundnfury> having looked them up, I realise why
13:13:21 <soundnfury> - they're pointless
13:13:58 <nortti> using sexprs with { and } in place of ( and ) would be easier in web pages
13:14:07 <soundnfury> yeah, that's a good idea
13:14:17 <soundnfury> or even < and >, because people are used to escaping those
13:14:36 <nortti> I'll f
13:14:51 <nortti> *go to write my own harkup language
13:16:14 <soundnfury> All the world's a LispM,nAnd all the men and women merely conses:nThey have their cdrs and their cars;nAnd one man in his time evals many sexprs,nHis acts being seven lists.
13:16:30 <nortti> :P
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13:28:55 <mroman> Blog's not a word?
13:29:09 <mroman> HERETIC!
13:29:11 <soundnfury> I don't consider it one.
13:29:36 <soundnfury> It's just so /ugly/, in phonotactic terms.
13:29:52 <nortti> whar about phlog?
13:30:18 <soundnfury> yeuch!
13:30:25 <soundnfury> that's reminiscent of phlogiston
13:30:50 <nortti> phlog=gopher blog
13:31:04 <soundnfury> still yeuch!
13:31:08 <soundnfury> although props for gophering
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14:24:02 <nortti> ok. now I have written specs of my own s-expr based markup language
14:26:42 <mroman> Now write a parser using parsec for it.
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14:27:37 <nortti> nah. I don't want to require any dependecies
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14:38:15 <nortti> hmm. I started building of lynx in 15:20 and it has now build the dependencies
14:38:41 -!- Patashu has changed nick to Patashu[Zzz].
14:39:28 <nortti> but to be fair I had to compile gmake and other utilities like that before it could be compiled
14:42:02 <nortti> (I am building it on netbsd on virtual machine)
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15:14:54 <nortti> $help
15:15:56 -!- kallisti has joined.
15:33:40 <nortti> yay. I just got another nokia 1610
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15:49:15 <Taneb> Hello!
16:18:47 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello \s : 'Taneb! : \
16:18:47 <stlangbot> [mroman] [['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ' ', 'Taneb!']]
16:18:58 <Taneb> :)
16:19:03 <mroman> huh.
16:19:23 <mroman> stlangbot: stlang M 'Hello \s : 'Taneb! : concat \
16:19:23 <stlangbot> [mroman] ['Hello Taneb!']
16:19:32 <mroman> Damn python strings not lists :(
16:19:42 <mroman> I'm very disappointed of python right now.
16:19:56 <mroman> You can treat a string as a list
16:19:57 <mroman> like
16:20:03 <mroman> for e in "somestring": foo.append(e)
16:20:08 <mroman> but foo is not a string anymore.
16:20:15 <mroman> it's a list of strings.
16:20:41 <Taneb> I switched to Haskell shortly after joining this channel
16:20:45 <Taneb> It has that effect on you
16:20:59 <mroman> I learned haskell a while ago.
16:21:08 <mroman> During my apprenticeship as an IT supporter.
16:23:02 <mroman> Not that it would have had anything to do with that job but...
16:23:34 <Taneb> I probably ought to finish PietBot
16:23:47 <Taneb> I probably ought to find PietBot
16:23:50 <mroman> I learned it anyway at home :)
16:23:54 <Taneb> :)
16:24:35 <Taneb> I think it's possible to get from the wikipedia page on Perl to our wiki in four clicks
16:25:01 <mroman> Taneb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmkdIeImbWk
16:25:15 <mroman> oh wait
16:25:18 <mroman> no that's not it.
16:26:13 <mroman> Taneb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pztDbROyspk
16:26:14 <mroman> That's it.
16:26:38 <Taneb> Oh, we do that for fun
16:26:44 <Taneb> I'm quite good at it
16:28:17 <mroman> Taneb: You can get there with 3 clicks.
16:28:52 <mroman> on Perl -> 'obfuscated code' -> 'Esoteric programming language' -> 'Esolang'
16:29:00 <Taneb> Oh yes
16:30:09 <Taneb> @ping
16:30:09 <Taneb> Okay, this isn't good
16:30:09 <lambdabot> pong
16:30:49 <Phantom__Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IL04_109.gif
16:30:53 <Taneb> I once went into a very long game late, and still won
16:30:56 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh wow that is beautiful.
16:31:12 <Phantom__Hoover> (It's a single constituency in Illinois.)
16:32:01 <Taneb> I've seen that
16:33:18 <mroman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high-level_programming_language
16:33:23 <mroman> *very* high-level o_O
16:33:47 <mroman> goal-oriented programming language
16:34:03 <mroman> Sounds like buzzword bullshit.
16:35:19 <Phantom__Hoover> So... it's basically just a scripting language built into an application?
16:36:44 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: No!
16:36:51 <mroman> It's a VERY high-level language.
16:37:09 <mroman> but yes.
16:37:15 <mroman> It's just an embedded scripting language.
16:37:44 <mroman> With functions specific to an application.
16:38:03 <mroman> Which according to WP makes it *very* high-level.
16:38:57 <mroman> The references there even suck.
16:39:13 <Phantom__Hoover> I guess the term would mean a language completely divorced from the hardware it's running on?
16:39:18 <Phantom__Hoover> Hey, that applies to most esolangs!
16:40:31 <mroman> Isn't that true for almost any interpreted language as well?
16:41:10 <Phantom__Hoover> Eh, they generally have some form of hardware interface so you can actually use them.
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17:38:35 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 999
17:38:37 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiisddddsddddddddddddddddddddddddd
17:38:50 <mroman> > undf 999
17:38:52 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `undf'
17:39:29 -!- Tod-Autojoined has joined.
17:40:20 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 1024
17:40:21 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiisdddds
17:40:29 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 1000
17:40:30 <stlangbot> [mroman] iiiiiisddddsdddddddddddddddddddddddd
17:40:56 <mroman> stlangbot: undf 13
17:40:57 <stlangbot> [mroman] iissddd
17:41:08 -!- TodPunk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:42:16 <mroman> stlangbot: die
17:42:17 -!- stlangbot has quit (Quit: Bye, cruel world!).
17:59:34 <Sgeo> Is Opera less of a memory hog than Chrome?
18:07:09 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:35:04 <ogrom> Sgeo: always was
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18:38:12 <Taneb> Hello
19:03:30 <Sgeo> Taneb, hi
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19:33:34 <nortti> fuck yeah. I installed lynx
19:33:45 <Taneb> :)
19:34:01 <Vorpal> well, that was fun. / remounted ro. Seems to have been a kernel bug rather than disk issue though. Will run memtest on it tonight as well.
19:34:09 <Vorpal> (the disk is fine as far as I can tell)
19:35:00 <nortti> compiling started around 15:40
19:35:14 <nortti> it is now 22:35 here
19:35:21 <Vorpal> nortti, is it still not done?
19:35:22 <Vorpal> wtf
19:35:27 <Vorpal> what are you compiling?
19:35:38 <nortti> it is done now. lynx
19:35:57 <nortti> but it had to compile dependecies and gmake
19:36:29 <nortti> also the virtual machine netbsd is running is about as fast as 486
19:37:00 <Vorpal> nortti, what virtual machine? qemu?
19:37:29 <nortti> yes
19:39:37 <nortti> what!? there are binary packages for netbsd?
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19:41:25 <nortti> okay. that was 7 hours of wasted time
19:50:27 <Vorpal> nortti, XD
19:50:40 <nortti> Gregor: where is ircII located in pkgsrc?
19:51:04 <nortti> forget it
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20:23:33 <nortti> kallisti: when I try to visit spirity.org I get "The plain HTTP request was sent to HTTPS port" error
20:23:55 <Taneb> Wow, a 400 error
20:24:14 <Taneb> That's another one for my collection
20:24:19 <kallisti> nortti: ha. I /just/ attempted to set up HTTPS
20:25:30 <kallisti> someone in #nginx told me I could just drop the HTTPs setting into a server block.
20:27:05 <kallisti> should be fixed now
20:27:24 <Taneb> Looks like an interesting site
20:27:35 <kallisti> yeah it's the next big thing on the internet.
20:27:40 <Taneb> :)
20:27:57 <nortti> wow. that site is full of content
20:29:08 <kallisti> so I just googled "welcome to nginx"
20:29:13 <kallisti> apparently there's a "welcome to nginx" virus.
20:29:32 <kallisti> http://community.norton.com/t5/Norton-Internet-Security-Norton/Help-with-quot-Welcome-to-nginx-quot/td-p/730142
20:32:44 <kallisti> monqy: https://spirity.org/
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20:43:55 <zzo38> Is there any sun and moon ephemeris usable with TeX?
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21:11:48 <Taneb> Hmm
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21:42:32 <Vorpal> <Taneb> That's another one for my collection
21:42:38 <Vorpal> you collect HTTP errors?
21:42:44 <Taneb> I'd like to, one day
21:42:52 <Taneb> Ever since I saw a 302 error
21:43:00 <Vorpal> Taneb, 302, which one is that?
21:43:27 <Taneb> Was it a 302?
21:43:27 <olsner> is that the "I'm not a teapot" error?
21:43:34 <Taneb> I saw a weird one
21:43:37 <Taneb> olsner, that's 418
21:44:04 <Vorpal> 302 Found
21:44:08 <Vorpal> okay?
21:44:29 <nortti> yeah. it is kinda weird error message
21:44:36 <Gregor> It's a redirect.
21:44:39 <Vorpal> yeah
21:44:43 <Gregor> It means your resource has been found, it just doesn't happen to be here.
21:44:50 <Vorpal> Gregor, well obviously, all 3xx are redirects after all
21:45:06 <Taneb> I was at school, which uses IE7, I think
21:45:10 <Vorpal> anyway it seems 303 See Other and 307 Temporary Redirect have replaced 302 Found
21:45:15 <Vorpal> according to wikipedia
21:45:23 <Taneb> It may have been a 502 or something
21:45:29 <Taneb> I neglected to write it down
21:45:36 <Vorpal> 502 Bad Gateway
21:45:41 <Vorpal> that happens sometimes
21:45:49 <Vorpal> usually a server being overloaded
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21:59:13 <oerjan> i'll just keep waiting for a 451 error
21:59:26 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:32:45 <Taneb> Goodnight
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22:45:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, I hope I never see that one
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22:51:50 <Vorpal> huh subversion is an apache project? What?
22:52:03 <Vorpal> I could have sworn it was a tigris.org project?
22:52:26 <Vorpal> wtf?
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22:54:11 <Vorpal> since when has subversion been an apache project?
22:55:07 <oerjan> since it was subverted
22:55:21 <Vorpal> oh right, it used to be a tigris.org project, as I thought. I just found the old subversion bug tracker on there
22:55:30 <Vorpal> so I wasn't going insane then. Phew.
22:55:52 <shachaf> Everything is Apache these days.
22:56:04 <Vorpal> seems it has been an apache project since 2009 though
22:56:08 <shachaf> They even have a web server.
22:56:09 <Vorpal> how did I not notice that...
23:12:11 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
23:12:50 <kallisti_> I suddenly have a strange urge to write a compiler.
23:14:51 <olsner> kallisti_: write one then
23:15:01 <kallisti_> not sure what to compile, or what to compile it to.
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23:16:37 <soundnfury> kallisti_: compile Befunge-93 to Eniuq
23:17:01 <soundnfury> and write the compiler in Perl
23:17:20 <soundnfury> *without* using a single regex, bwahahaha
23:17:31 <kallisti_> impossible
23:17:55 -!- kallisti_ has changed nick to kallisti.
23:18:18 <soundnfury> or compile Awk to Piet
23:18:30 * soundnfury loves Awk
23:18:43 <kallisti> how about...
23:18:55 <kallisti> brainfuck to javascript.
23:19:18 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:19:21 <Vorpal> kallisti, too easy
23:19:27 <Vorpal> kallisti, unless it heavily optimises
23:19:33 <kallisti> yes, well, I don't have experience with compilers
23:19:36 <kallisti> and that's the idea.
23:19:38 <Vorpal> can it break esotope-bfc is the question then
23:19:50 <Vorpal> which is a pretty good brainfuck->C compiler
23:19:51 <kallisti> actually befunge-93 could be more interesting.
23:20:03 <Vorpal> kallisti, befunge is self modifying, you can't compile it
23:20:32 <kallisti> uh, yes you can.
23:20:41 <Vorpal> you can do threaded code sure, but you need to be able to recompile it on the fly
23:21:06 <Vorpal> so you either need threaded code or you need a JIT
23:21:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, was working on a befunge-98 JIT
23:21:33 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21.
23:22:04 <kallisti> I'd imagine javascript is dynamic enough to make modification not a huge issue.
23:22:11 <kallisti> but still an issue.
23:22:27 <soundnfury> I don't think you can treat code as data in javascript
23:22:48 <soundnfury> oh wait you can
23:22:51 <kallisti> of course.
23:22:52 <soundnfury> JS has an eval, doesn't it?
23:22:55 <kallisti> yes
23:23:02 <kallisti> and first-class functions.
23:23:05 <soundnfury> it's just Strongly Discouraged by security peoples
23:25:31 <kallisti> an inline JS extension could be fun.
23:25:34 <kallisti> befunge in a browser.
23:25:42 <kallisti> manipulate the DOM in your fungespace!
23:25:51 * kallisti will need to work on his catchphrases.
23:26:46 <soundnfury> Could AFAX be this year's hottest web technology?
23:27:00 <Vorpal> kallisti, you mean as a fingerprint for befunge-98?
23:27:38 <kallisti> possibly. I don't know how that works exactly
23:28:08 <kallisti> looks to be what I'm talking about
23:28:13 <kallisti> assign a symbol to some foreign code.
23:29:12 <Vorpal> hm?
23:30:08 <Vorpal> kallisti, well if you need any help with Befunge-98 implementation (which is tricky, the standard is ambiguous in several places!) I suggest you check out Deewiant's test suite Mycology. It documents the standard interpretation of Befunge-98 pretty much.
23:30:21 <Vorpal> http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html
23:30:44 <Vorpal> kallisti, there is a befunge-93 part of that test suite too
23:30:52 <Vorpal> so even in befunge-93 you can use that
23:31:01 <Vorpal> just cut out the first 25x80
23:31:09 <Vorpal> that makes up the befunge-93 part
23:31:21 <Vorpal> (I suggest using block selection mode in your editor)
23:32:04 <kallisti> ha. modular programming in befunge.
23:32:26 <Lumpio-> Well if the standard is ambiguous you might as well make an ambiguous implementation
23:32:35 <Lumpio-> Undefined behavior where-ever the standard calls for it!
23:32:40 <oerjan> * kallisti will need to work on his catchphrases. <-- "the befunge of DOM", hth
23:32:51 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, well there are also some cases where the other behaviours doesn't work
23:33:07 <kallisti> also what should I call this? FungeScript? CoffeeFunge? FungeCoffee?
23:33:10 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, also the standard doesn't completely work
23:33:19 <Vorpal> the behaviour wrt t is broken
23:33:36 <Vorpal> basically you can't avoid forkbombing a standard implementation
23:33:43 <Vorpal> so no one implements it like that
23:34:24 <Vorpal> <kallisti> ha. modular programming in befunge. <-- the fingerprint testing is kind of modular actually
23:34:32 <oerjan> kallisti: Hemileia, hth
23:34:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that a species of fungus?
23:34:57 <kallisti> Hemileia vastatrix is a fungus of the order Uredinales that causes coffee rust, a disease that is devastating to coffee
23:34:58 <oerjan> but of course
23:35:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, also what do you mean by "hth"?
23:35:07 <oerjan> "hope this helps"
23:35:10 <Vorpal> ah
23:35:28 <Vorpal> kallisti, I went for the boring name for my implementation: "cfunge" since it was written in C
23:35:35 <Vorpal> I also have efunge, written in Erlang
23:35:57 <kallisti> how would fingerprints work with a compiler? seems difficult.
23:36:03 <Vorpal> yes it would be
23:36:11 <Vorpal> kallisti, remember you need a stack per letter
23:36:42 <Vorpal> example: fingerprint AAAA defines A B and C. fingerprint BBBB defines B C and D
23:36:53 <Vorpal> then if you load A and unload B. What do you get?
23:37:09 <Vorpal> Turns out the A semantic from AAAA remains loaded
23:37:19 <kallisti> ah
23:37:53 <Vorpal> kallisti, so basically unloading a fingerprint just pops one function pointer off the stack of each letter that it defines.
23:38:02 <kallisti> it seems odd to restrict fingerprints to A-Z
23:38:07 <kallisti> instead of say, Unicode.
23:38:17 <Vorpal> kallisti, well, there weren't any printable ASCII characters left over
23:38:26 <kallisti> Vorpal: I feel like "stack" is the wrong word here.
23:38:44 <Vorpal> kallisti, well, I implement it in C as each letter having a stack of function pointers
23:38:51 <Vorpal> well, an array each, that is malloced
23:39:01 <Vorpal> linked list in erlang obviously
23:39:10 <kallisti> ah I guess the ( ) make it work like a stack, nevermind
23:39:17 <kallisti> I thought you could unload fingerprints arbitrarily.
23:39:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: um what happens if you load AAAA, load BBBB, then unload AAAA?
23:40:14 <oerjan> or is that impossible
23:40:20 <Vorpal> it is possible
23:40:24 <Vorpal> let me work out what happens
23:41:10 <Vorpal> oerjan, lets see.. you get: A: empty, B: AAAA semantics, C: AAAA semantics, D: BBBB semantics
23:41:18 <Vorpal> as far as I can see
23:41:42 <oerjan> ...and this is according to spec? :P
23:42:16 <Vorpal> oerjan, the spec is not very clear. But there was a lot of discussion (see logs for this channel, whenever that discussion was). There are several possible interpretations.
23:42:24 <Vorpal> but it is the one mycology expects
23:42:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, you could make a case for about 5 different interpretations as well
23:43:06 <Vorpal> this is however common practise.
23:43:16 <oerjan> for a start, you could make a case for not keeping around pointers to unloaded fingerprints
23:43:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah but you could load a fingerprint multiple times
23:43:39 <Vorpal> what then?
23:44:36 <kallisti> it looks to me like each load saves the old semantics of the operation on the stack.
23:44:44 <kallisti> and an unload just pops back
23:44:54 <Vorpal> CCBI and cfunge both implements it as loading a fingerprint pushing a set of function pointers onto a set of stacks. And unloading just popping whatever is on top (even if it is for a different fingerprint)
23:45:00 <kallisti> to whatever the old semantic-set was.
23:45:38 <kallisti> so it looks to me like it should be a stack of linked lists of function pointers
23:45:43 <kallisti> rather than a stack of function pointers.
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23:45:58 <kallisti> or null-terminated arrays or something
23:46:04 <kallisti> whatever sequence you want to use.
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23:46:43 <Vorpal> kallisti, uh? stack of linked lists?
23:46:46 <Vorpal> I don't get it
23:46:51 <Vorpal> each letter has a separate stack
23:46:56 <kallisti> yes\
23:46:58 <Vorpal> (that is how I implement it)
23:48:05 <kallisti> ah nevermind
23:48:21 <Vorpal> kallisti, http://sprunge.us/ePBg?c
23:48:23 <kallisti> it looks as though loading a new semantic onto a letter overwrites the previous.
23:48:45 <kallisti> I thought they would co-exist
23:48:53 <kallisti> on one letter
23:48:58 <Vorpal> oh I forgot this at the start:
23:48:59 <Vorpal> typedef void (*fingerprintOpcode)(struct s_instructionPointer * ip);
23:49:55 <kallisti> I'd probably use a single stack of arrays
23:50:12 <kallisti> with an index for each letter
23:50:26 -!- glogbackup has joined.
23:50:31 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway you might not want to read the cfunge source code in general. I kind of went for it being the fastest implementation at the time (and it was until CCBI2). So there are some stupid optimisations XD
23:50:50 <kallisti> so then a save makes a copy of the array, binds the new semantics to their respective indices in the new array, and pushes that to the stack.
23:51:15 <kallisti> then a restore is just a pop.
23:51:19 <Vorpal> I should write an implementation for android
23:51:22 <Vorpal> hm
23:51:32 <Vorpal> maybe?
23:51:47 <Vorpal> nah I don't like java that much, and the NDK looks painful
23:51:56 <kallisti> use Scala
23:51:59 <Vorpal> and cfunge wouldn't work under a libc like the one on android
23:52:03 <Vorpal> kallisti, eh, nah
23:52:07 <Vorpal> I would have to learn scala
23:52:09 <kallisti> Clojure?
23:52:16 <Vorpal> don't know clojure either
23:52:16 <kallisti> Jython? :P
23:52:19 <Vorpal> ouch
23:52:23 <Vorpal> stop the pain! :P
23:52:38 <Vorpal> I'm not going for /slowest/ interpreter
23:52:55 <Vorpal> hm I'm interested in what feeding cfunge into an android toolchain would do now...
23:53:10 <kallisti> I think I'll start with a javascript befunge-98 interpreter.
23:53:15 <kallisti> since that will be a simpler task
23:53:19 <Vorpal> kallisti, 93 you mean?
23:53:19 <kallisti> and might prove useful for a compiler.
23:53:22 <kallisti> no
23:53:26 <Vorpal> 98 is not simple :P
23:53:29 <kallisti> that's fine.
23:53:37 <Vorpal> kallisti, try implementing k for example
23:54:07 <Vorpal> kallisti, read the spec and tell me what 8::::kkj would do
23:54:19 <Vorpal> that is when traveling left to right
23:54:29 <Vorpal> (delta 1,0)
23:54:48 <Vorpal> I know cfunge doesn't work on windows. And even getting it to work under cygwin is apparently tricky, requiring disabling some fingerprints
23:55:45 <Vorpal> I even had trouble getting it to work on openbsd. Yet it doesn't require anything except C99 and some POSIX-2001 bits
23:55:49 <Vorpal> kallisti, ^
23:56:26 <Vorpal> it requires some esoteric bits of those however
23:56:38 <kallisti> well I think it will be easier to write in JS than in C.
23:56:42 <Vorpal> sure
23:56:51 <Vorpal> you don't have to deal with memory management
23:56:51 <Vorpal> :P
23:56:59 <Vorpal> C is not an easy language to write in
23:57:05 <kallisti> you can implement fingerprints as functions on the grid.
23:57:11 <Vorpal> I have my own memory pool implementation
23:57:32 <Vorpal> kallisti, and you probably get associative arrays :P
23:57:35 <Vorpal> lucky bastard :P
23:57:38 <kallisti> of course.
23:57:47 <Vorpal> I had to roll my own
23:58:05 <Vorpal> kallisti, but you can't do what my erlang implementation can. It can run on multiple computers
23:58:06 <kallisti> if I were going to go for an efficient befunge compiler I'd probably use C++
23:58:07 <Vorpal> distributed
23:58:35 <Vorpal> (I didn't finish the fingerprint for accessing that functionality, some parts work)
23:59:12 <Vorpal> it has a ATHR (async threads, since the befunge-98 threads created by t run in lock step, I wanted truly async threads)
23:59:38 <Vorpal> btw, cfunge can do 64-bit cells. Forgot if it does that by default. And efunge does bignum cells.
2012-07-08
00:00:07 <Vorpal> though it could be argued that bignum cells are possibly not allowed by the standard
00:00:34 <Vorpal> kallisti, iirc javascript uses floats? You want to avoid that, and get proper integers, or at least limit yourself to an integer range
00:00:39 <Vorpal> 32-bit or 64-bit I guess
00:00:43 <Vorpal> probably 32-bit?
00:00:52 <kallisti> there are no "proper integers"
00:01:09 <Vorpal> well you want the proper precision and behaviour
00:01:12 <soundnfury> does efunge do bignum cellos?
00:01:13 <Vorpal> as if they were integers
00:01:14 <soundnfury> if not why not
00:01:22 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I just said it did?
00:01:27 <soundnfury> read again
00:01:35 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> btw, cfunge can do 64-bit cells. Forgot if it does that by default. And efunge does bignum cells.
00:01:42 <soundnfury> <soundnfury> does efunge do bignum cellos?
00:01:52 <Vorpal> oh, I thought it was a typo
00:01:54 <Vorpal> very funny
00:02:01 <kallisti> actually I might write the interpreter in coffeescript.
00:02:02 <kallisti> just because.
00:02:07 <soundnfury> arbitrary large string instruments!
00:02:10 <Vorpal> kallisti, what is that?
00:02:16 <Vorpal> soundnfury, nice
00:02:24 <kallisti> a dialect of javascript that compiles down to javascript.
00:02:35 <Vorpal> kallisti, ... why does that exist?
00:02:46 <kallisti> because people want sugar with their javascript. :D
00:02:48 <Vorpal> anyway you should clearly use node.js
00:02:50 <soundnfury> I think coffeescript support should be mandatory for HTCPCP user-agents
00:03:02 <Vorpal> soundnfury, "HTCPCP"?
00:03:03 <soundnfury> kallisti: syntactic sugar causes and you know the rest
00:03:10 <soundnfury> Vorpal: sure, let me dig out the RFC
00:03:23 <Vorpal> soundnfury, oh the coffee thing?
00:03:23 <soundnfury> 2324
00:03:24 <Vorpal> right
00:04:12 <Vorpal> whatever
00:05:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway in here I think I, Deewiant and fizzie could probably help you with any befunge question you might have, except for the cfunge-INTERCAL bridge code, please direct any queries relating to that at ais523
00:05:51 <Vorpal> (yes there is a fingerprint IFFI that makes cfunge and the ick INTERCAL implementation interact. Technically cfunge becomes embedded in ick)
00:06:11 <Vorpal> (or rather in the program ick produces)
00:06:29 <Vorpal> (since I don't understand intercal terribly well, I can't help with that)
00:07:37 <kallisti> also AFAIK using coffeescript and node.js aren't mutually exclusive.
00:07:47 <kallisti> coffeescript plays nicely with javascript code, of course.
00:08:29 <Vorpal> kallisti, hey, why not implement an intercal parser?
00:08:31 <Vorpal> XD
00:09:14 <Vorpal> (that is notoriously difficult, it is an LR(infinite) grammar in the worst case)
00:11:12 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm maybe I should implement some more fingerprints in cfunge
00:11:33 -!- Patashu[Zzz] has changed nick to Patashu.
00:11:35 <Vorpal> due to some of the optimisations EVAR might be a bit of a challenge for example
00:11:45 <Vorpal> kallisti, btw CCBI is implemented in D
00:11:51 <Vorpal> the only program I know that uses D
00:13:05 <Vorpal> hm I could implement IIPC and IMAP I think, it would just make the code less cleanb
00:13:07 <Vorpal> clean*
00:13:10 <zzo38> I have made up some functions for dealing with free monads, such as: affectFree :: Functor g => (forall z. (s, f z) -> g (s, z)) -> (s, Free f x) -> Free g (s, x); reduceFree :: Monad m => (forall z. f z -> m z) -> Free f x -> m x;
00:13:18 <Vorpal> TRDS I couldn't do
00:13:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, HEY you want to implement TRDS. It allows time travel for the instruction pointers
00:13:49 <Vorpal> only rcfunge (the original implementation of it) and CCBI implements it
00:13:59 <Vorpal> it is painfully messy
00:14:02 <kallisti> I'm not looking to implement every fingerprint ever.
00:14:18 <kallisti> I just want to use befunge on a website. :D
00:14:23 <Vorpal> aww
00:14:34 <Vorpal> kallisti, what about SOCK? Would that even work in a browser?
00:14:39 <kallisti> no.
00:14:41 <Vorpal> kallisti, fungot uses it
00:14:42 <fungot> Vorpal: hold on... pyrire... is that what they *really* can't stand is a smartass
00:14:42 <Vorpal> ^source
00:14:43 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
00:16:30 <Vorpal> FILE, SOCK, FING, STRN, SCKE, TOYS, REXP
00:16:42 <Vorpal> TOYS is only used for the reload on the fly
00:18:27 <kallisti> Vorpal: pretty sure your example involving k would just run out of stack.
00:18:40 <Vorpal> kallisti, empty stack pops a 0 though
00:18:42 <Vorpal> so not an issue
00:19:00 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway my point here was that k on j is a pain, k on k is even more of a pain
00:19:17 <Vorpal> ccbi even opted to not handle k on k specially and just hope for the best
00:19:23 <Vorpal> I don't remember what cfunge does
00:19:52 <kallisti> cowards.
00:20:22 <Vorpal> kallisti this is what cfunge does: http://sprunge.us/iMQH?c
00:20:48 <Vorpal> RUNSELF is a macro
00:21:16 <Vorpal> that recursively invokes the function based on different prototypes (which can happen due to different configurations when building)
00:22:03 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway k is one of those instructions where you could make a case for several different interpretations
00:22:19 <Vorpal> in fact mycology accepts several variants there (it prints it as UNDEF: )
00:22:34 <kallisti> I think it's pretty clear that whatever k does, it should be one tick.
00:22:45 <kallisti> even if it runs k multiple times.
00:23:16 <Vorpal> kallisti, ah that isn't the issue. The issue here is different. Where it should fetch the instruction
00:23:17 <kallisti> the tricky part for me is how the linewrapping behaves with jumps.
00:23:45 <Vorpal> kallisti, ooh yeah that one is tricky
00:24:07 <Vorpal> cpressy (who made befunge) was here some time ago and we discussed it with him
00:24:12 <Vorpal> forgot what the outcome was
00:24:20 <kallisti> Then it finds the next instruction in Funge-space in the path of the IP (note that this cannot be a marker such as space or ;), treats it as an instruction, executing it n times.
00:24:34 <kallisti> it clearly states that kk should execute k, n times.
00:24:40 <Vorpal> yes
00:24:46 <kallisti> so then kj should execute j, m times.
00:24:50 <Vorpal> but what about the inner k, where should it fetch the instruction?
00:25:04 <Vorpal> k should fetch it the next from the current position, but executes it at the k iirc
00:25:09 <Vorpal> which leads to some issues with kk
00:25:22 <Vorpal> also things like 1k^
00:25:28 <Vorpal> where does that go up from
00:25:35 <Vorpal> does it go up above the k or above the ^
00:25:45 <Vorpal> or even kk^
00:26:15 <kallisti> the result is the same as just ^
00:26:17 <kallisti> like the spec says.
00:26:57 <kallisti> I don't think it makes any sense for k to execute the next instruction from its location in the grid.
00:27:19 <Vorpal> right, I forgot how it was supposed to work. I wrote most of cfunge in like 2008
00:27:28 <Vorpal> kallisti, what about 01-k2 btw?
00:27:35 <Vorpal> how many times does that execute, if any?
00:27:39 <Vorpal> or does it do something else?
00:27:42 <kallisti> what is -
00:27:47 <Vorpal> kallisti, substract
00:27:53 <Vorpal> basically you have a -1 on the stack
00:27:55 <Vorpal> when you hit the k
00:28:05 <kallisti> oh it's signed integers?
00:28:18 <Vorpal> kallisti, in befunge? of course
00:28:32 <Vorpal> kallisti, signed 32-bit commonly
00:28:57 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway don't stare yourself blind at the spec for this one:
00:28:59 <Vorpal> "UNDEF: k with a negative argument reflects"
00:29:02 <Vorpal> (yeah undef)
00:29:06 <kallisti> well since "execute -1 times" isnt really meaingful it would just be undefined behavior
00:29:09 <kallisti> so... whatever you want to do.
00:29:17 <kallisti> I would treat it as 0
00:29:21 <Vorpal> (iirc ccbi executed the absolute value instead)
00:30:09 <Vorpal> btw the cfunge bzr repo has some tests for things that mycology doesn't test. Might be useful. Might not be
00:31:25 <Vorpal> hm I should get rid of the ones named *.b109, since that standard died due to lack of work.
00:32:01 <Vorpal> kallisti, read the spec for y too. Have fun
00:32:16 <kallisti> so, I have 1 TB of storage on this server. How can I utilize this for the Great Good of the esolang community?
00:32:24 <kallisti> mirrors?
00:33:30 <Vorpal> kallisti, give me root access
00:33:32 <Vorpal> ;)
00:33:40 <kallisti> nope.
00:33:47 <kallisti> however I'll give you private git repos.
00:33:53 * kallisti is running gitolite
00:33:54 <Vorpal> not git
00:34:01 <kallisti> why?
00:34:06 <Vorpal> I'm not a git user
00:34:10 <kallisti> why?
00:34:10 <Vorpal> mercurial or bzr
00:34:15 <Vorpal> I don't like git
00:35:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, anyway is the server in a data center?
00:35:18 <Vorpal> or a home server?
00:35:37 <kallisti> data center
00:35:42 <kallisti> OVH dedicated server
00:35:50 <Vorpal> nice
00:35:53 <Vorpal> must cost a lot
00:35:55 <kallisti> no.
00:35:58 <Vorpal> oh?
00:36:03 <kallisti> I got the cheapest one, from a reseller
00:36:06 <Vorpal> huh
00:36:08 <kallisti> zero customer support.
00:36:12 <kallisti> it's 15 euros a month.
00:36:17 <Vorpal> nice
00:36:35 <kallisti> 2 GB RAM, celeron processor. Sufficient for a small-scale storage server.
00:36:55 <Vorpal> hm
00:37:03 <Vorpal> kallisti, only twice the ram of my phone
00:37:19 <Vorpal> and as much ram as my laptop
00:37:26 <Vorpal> 1/8 of the RAM in my desktop
00:37:27 <kallisti> yeah it has the same CPU and RAM specs as my old dell desktop.
00:37:32 <kallisti> which I still have.
00:37:47 <Vorpal> and I can't make any silly CPU comparisons without more details :P
00:38:00 <kallisti> http://www.kimsufi.ie/
00:38:25 <Vorpal> kallisti, 1.2 GHz?
00:38:30 <kallisti> let me check
00:38:31 <Vorpal> okay that is less than my phone
00:38:33 <Vorpal> how many cores?
00:38:45 <kallisti> one sec
00:38:53 <kallisti> I don't remember how to check this stuff from shell.
00:39:01 <kallisti> /proc/cpuinfo
00:39:01 <Vorpal> kallisti, cat /proc/cpuinfo
00:39:23 <kallisti> 2 core 1.6 Ghz Atom
00:39:50 <kallisti> sufficient for a server, I think.
00:39:55 <Vorpal> kallisti, my phone has 4 cores at 1.4 GHz each. Of course, it is ARM so any comparison is pointless.
00:40:24 <Vorpal> though atm /proc/cpuinfo on it only lists one, but iirc it hotplugs the cores on demand
00:40:35 <kallisti> MemTotal: 2035816 kB
00:40:52 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/HUfh
00:41:31 <kallisti> so yeah it looks like their plans only list the minimum of what you're getting.
00:41:41 <Vorpal> hm
00:41:53 <Vorpal> right
00:42:05 <Vorpal> kallisti, what about traffic / month?
00:42:17 <Vorpal> it says "Unlimited* "
00:42:21 <Vorpal> what does the * mean
00:42:31 <kallisti> 5 TB a month before they limit your bandwidth.
00:42:36 <kallisti> but otherwise unlimited.
00:42:36 <Vorpal> I can only find ** and *** below
00:42:47 <kallisti> ** : The traffic is unlimited. If you exceed 5TB/month for the Kimsufi 2G, 10TB/month for the Kimsufi 16G or 15TB/month for the 24G Kimsufi the connection will be limited to 10 Mbps. You can buy additional TB of traffic directly from your manager: €0.99 per TB
00:42:49 <Vorpal> kallisti, that is not "unlimited"
00:42:51 <kallisti> they messed up their asterisks. :P
00:42:54 <Vorpal> ah
00:43:05 <kallisti> I don't see myself exceeding 5 TB a month.
00:43:13 <Vorpal> fair enough
00:43:22 <Vorpal> where is .ie?
00:43:25 <Vorpal> Irland?
00:43:25 <kallisti> ireland
00:43:41 <kallisti> there's a .co.uk but they only work with UK customers.
00:43:42 <Vorpal> oh right, it is spelled Ireland in English
00:43:47 <kallisti> the .ie site has ireland, US, and I think Canada.
00:44:18 <Vorpal> "BSD Raw, for BSD fans", I wonder why they don't say that the Linux variant is for Linux fans, or the Windows variant is for windows fans
00:44:20 <Vorpal> ;P
00:44:25 <kallisti> best deal I've found for a dedicated server. the price per storage space is much higher than any VPS I've found.
00:44:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, much lower you mean
00:44:39 <kallisti> er, lower
00:44:40 <kallisti> yes
00:44:44 <kallisti> hlep what is ratio
00:44:56 <Vorpal> ?
00:44:58 <Vorpal> what?
00:45:05 <kallisti> nothing.
00:45:15 <Vorpal> kallisti, "help what is ratio"?
00:45:16 <Vorpal> what?
00:45:48 <kallisti> I don't know how to explain what that means
00:45:57 <Vorpal> kallisti, which distro did they pre-install?
00:46:03 <Vorpal> debian?
00:46:21 <kallisti> you pick from a list. I chose Debian (stable was the only option, but I updated to wheezy)
00:46:22 <Vorpal> I would probably go for debian myself
00:46:27 <Vorpal> right
00:46:34 <Vorpal> why not sid ;P
00:46:42 <kallisti> I'm afraid of things called "unstable"
00:47:16 <Vorpal> isn't there an even more unstable version than sid iirc?
00:47:19 <kallisti> for a production server, you'd want Debian stable. testing would be a bit risky.
00:47:25 <Vorpal> yeah
00:47:37 <kallisti> also, no idea.
00:47:54 <Vorpal> also I guess they don't give you hardware visualisation with the cheap variant
00:48:18 <Vorpal> you should go for colo, then the hardware is a one-time investment (huge one though)
00:48:19 <kallisti> there's some graphs and stuff I haven't looked at. you can view resource usage
00:48:30 <kallisti> what is colo
00:48:35 <Vorpal> colocated server
00:48:45 <Sgeo> I think my experience with making a program that had an inordinately large startup time made me desire an environment with live modification of code more than I really should
00:48:46 <Vorpal> you provide the hardware
00:48:50 <Vorpal> they provide the rack
00:48:55 <Vorpal> kallisti, do they give you any kvm access?
00:49:04 <Vorpal> to access BIOS and if you fuck up ssh
00:49:31 <kallisti> there's a "web console" if you fuck up your network config, and you can reboot from the admin panel.
00:49:49 <Vorpal> kallisti, with web console you mean a serial console?
00:49:57 <kallisti> I have no idea what it is. :P
00:50:00 <kallisti> that's what they call it.
00:50:00 <Vorpal> ah
00:50:03 <Vorpal> right
00:50:04 <kallisti> I haven't used it.
00:50:31 <Vorpal> but yeah it seems like a nice deal
00:51:02 <kallisti> I wouldn't mind upgrading to one of the better servers if I could afford it.
00:51:09 <kallisti> dunno what I would do with 16 GBs of RAM and 2 TBs though.
00:51:17 <Vorpal> for now I manage fine with dropbox. My phone came with 50 GB free for 2 years.
00:51:28 <soundnfury> kallisti: my server (which is also my laptop, heh) is running debian Testing
00:51:39 <kallisti> yeah I'm running test on both my laptop and server.
00:51:42 <kallisti> *testing
00:51:45 <Vorpal> soundnfury, how do you do RAID then?
00:51:46 <soundnfury> Stable is more than stable, it's fossilised
00:51:51 <Vorpal> kallisti, does the hardware have RAID btw?
00:51:54 <soundnfury> Vorpal: um, I don't
00:51:56 <Vorpal> I wouldn't do a server without RAID 1
00:52:05 <Vorpal> soundnfury, right, I even do RAID 1 on my desktop
00:52:08 <soundnfury> I only have one disk in my laptop
00:52:17 <Vorpal> I have... 3 + 1 SSD
00:52:22 <kallisti> Vorpal: not sure. I know there's backup services but it costs extra I believe.
00:52:24 <soundnfury> it's hard to fit more than that into the case heh
00:52:25 <Vorpal> (the third one is for windows, no raid for it
00:52:41 <Vorpal> soundnfury, then it isn't a desktop case
00:52:43 <soundnfury> (however, I do intend (eventually!) to get an external disk that I can raid onto
00:52:52 <Vorpal> I have space for two more disks
00:52:56 <soundnfury> Vorpal: I know it isn't. It's a laptop, not a desktop
00:53:01 <Vorpal> oh right
00:53:08 <Vorpal> I read laptop as desktop somehow
00:53:18 <Vorpal> I remember reading about a laptop with 2 disks
00:53:27 <Vorpal> some insane 20" thingy with dual screens iirc
00:53:31 <kallisti> Vorpal: yeah RAID costs extra.
00:53:34 <Vorpal> (yes seriously)
00:53:38 <Vorpal> kallisti, how much extra?
00:54:46 <kallisti> Vorpal: actually it looks like they don't offer it at all. they point you to the OVH site for that.
00:55:11 <kallisti> http://www.ovh.ie/dedicated_servers/
00:55:34 <Vorpal> OVH?
00:55:40 <kallisti> kimsufi is a reseller of OVH
00:55:45 <Vorpal> ah
00:55:56 <Vorpal> those cost considerably more
00:56:06 <kallisti> yes. they come with more bells and whistles. and probably better support.
00:56:26 <kallisti> kimsufi is "here, have a computer. don't break anything"
00:56:30 <Vorpal> right
00:56:43 <Vorpal> kallisti, I would love "here, have a computer with RAID 1, don't break anything"
00:57:02 <Vorpal> support isn't what I'm looking for
00:57:15 <kallisti> I would hope that hard drive failure isn't something I'll need to worry about.
00:57:32 <Vorpal> kallisti, have backups on everything on the server I would suggest
00:57:53 <kallisti> well at the moment the server is my backup.
00:57:54 <Vorpal> using it as an backup is fine, unlikely both your local disk and the remote disk would fail at the same time
00:58:00 <kallisti> but eventually I'll have an external drive I can rsync to.
00:58:49 <kallisti> also I'm going to set up a fancy backup system with rsync + git annex.
00:59:23 <kallisti> I don't want to fool with git locally. so I'll just have a local cronjob that rsyncs to the server, and a serverside cronjob that does git / git annex stuff
00:59:24 <Vorpal> heh
00:59:35 <Vorpal> why?
00:59:40 <Vorpal> what is git annex?
00:59:42 <kallisti> so I can version control small files
00:59:51 <Vorpal> kallisti, my /etc is in bzr
00:59:51 <kallisti> git annex lets you check things into git without actually checking the file contents in
01:00:01 <kallisti> so you can use it to transfer large files.
01:00:05 <kallisti> but version control small files.
01:00:11 <Vorpal> huh
01:00:22 <kallisti> it's like a dropbox replacement for people with servers. :P
01:00:27 <Vorpal> :P
01:00:32 <kallisti> > text ":P"
01:00:34 <lambdabot> :P
01:00:44 <Vorpal> hm
01:00:51 <Vorpal> what is the prefix for EgoBot now again?
01:00:54 <Vorpal> ^help
01:00:54 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
01:00:56 <kallisti> !help
01:00:57 <EgoBot> ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
01:01:00 <Vorpal> thanks
01:01:06 <kallisti> psh, I haven't been here for months and I know this stuff. c'mon.
01:01:11 <Vorpal> !help languages
01:01:11 <EgoBot> ​languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
01:01:28 <Vorpal> !befunge98 > text ":P"
01:01:31 <Vorpal> that is a fork bomb
01:01:36 <Vorpal> due to >t
01:01:42 <kallisti> ha
01:01:44 <Vorpal> don't fear though, there are limits
01:01:58 <kallisti> oh wait befunge starts from right to left?
01:02:07 <Vorpal> kallisti, it travels >
01:02:11 <Vorpal> to start with
01:02:16 <Vorpal> but look at what t does
01:02:24 <Vorpal> the child IP starts in the opposite direction
01:02:28 <Vorpal> so... yeah
01:02:29 <kallisti> oh right
01:02:56 <Vorpal> kallisti, speaking of which, you need to move the child IP forward before it's first move
01:02:58 <kallisti> so >t with a @ along the control flow path makes a fun little concurrent stream of sorts.
01:03:10 <Vorpal> the spec is written so that the first instruction the child ip executes is t....
01:03:20 <Vorpal> kallisti, yes
01:03:49 <Vorpal> !befunge98 >t"foo"...@
01:03:50 <EgoBot> 111 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111 102 111 111
01:03:54 <Vorpal> oops
01:03:55 <kallisti> each thread has its own stack I'd imagine.
01:04:00 <Vorpal> kallisti, yes
01:04:07 <Vorpal> kallisti, and its own set of fingerprints
01:04:09 <Vorpal> and so on
01:04:16 <Vorpal> anyway t is optional
01:04:18 <kallisti> sanity? in my esolangs?
01:04:23 <Vorpal> you indicate support in y
01:04:36 <Vorpal> well, befunge-98 is surprisingly sane
01:04:48 <Vorpal> it is however really hard to compile, and to implement in general
01:05:18 <Vorpal> kallisti, remember the IP can't only move ^>v< you can use x to set the delta vector to any value
01:05:23 <Vorpal> that is going to mess up compiling :P
01:05:45 <Vorpal> imagine reading the delta vector from user input
01:05:46 <kallisti> Vorpal: re: VPA. kimsufi has VPS offers. and there's nothing stoping you from running xen or kvm or whatever on your dedicated server.
01:05:59 <kallisti> in fact the 24G server would be sufficient to run a small VPS service.
01:06:04 <Vorpal> indeed
01:07:17 <Vorpal> btw samsung sucks at coding. Each time I plug my phone into a computer it spawns two zombie shell processes
01:07:36 <Vorpal> the parent process? kiesexe... Kies is Samsung's PC bloatware phone suite
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01:08:30 <Vorpal> kallisti, ^
01:09:25 <kallisti> heh
01:10:34 <Vorpal> app_113 8739 1909 461856 31200 ffffffff 00000000 S com.sec.android.daemonapp.ap.yahoostock.stockclock <-- huh, I disabled the yahoo bloatware... Wtf
01:10:41 <kallisti> since I freelance for living these days, private git repos will come in handy.
01:10:45 <kallisti> +a
01:11:28 <Vorpal> +a?
01:11:34 <kallisti> there was an a missing
01:11:36 <kallisti> in that sentence.
01:11:39 <kallisti> I put it back in
01:12:12 <Vorpal> don't see where it was
01:12:16 <Vorpal> haandy?
01:12:16 <kallisti> *a living
01:12:18 <kallisti> lol
01:12:30 <Vorpal> oh
01:12:48 <kallisti> "freelance for living" sounds like something an ignorant Swede would say!
01:13:07 <Vorpal> hey
01:13:42 <kallisti> not a sophisticated speaker of the English serpent.
01:14:46 <Vorpal> :P
01:14:59 <Vorpal> kallisti, and where are you from?
01:15:12 <kallisti> The United States of America.
01:15:25 <Vorpal> blergh, you can't even spell colour correctly
01:15:44 <Vorpal> And you put z instead of s in many places
01:15:50 <Vorpal> you have nothing to say when it comes to English :P
01:15:52 <kallisti> that's because it's so cool.
01:15:55 <kallisti> to use z
01:16:03 <kallisti> GHC uses z encoding
01:16:05 <kallisti> that's because
01:16:09 <kallisti> it knows what it means to be cool.
01:16:15 <Vorpal> kallisti, why didn't you write "to uze z" then?
01:16:16 <kallisti> like Americans
01:16:23 <Vorpal> or "americanz"
01:16:33 <kallisti> because the art of cool is a subtle thing.
01:16:40 <Vorpal> touche
01:16:44 <kallisti> you can't be brazen with your z's
01:16:51 <Vorpal> brasen :P
01:16:57 <Vorpal> (no not really)
01:17:09 <kallisti> also what is the name of that figure of speech I just used
01:17:14 <kallisti> "the English serpent"
01:17:36 <Vorpal> hm?
01:18:03 <kallisti> it has a name
01:18:18 <Gregor> Yes, "non sequitur" ;)
01:18:19 <Vorpal> oh?
01:18:24 <Vorpal> hah
01:18:35 <kallisti> no it has an actual name.
01:18:38 <kallisti> it's a thing people do
01:18:46 <kallisti> TRUST ME OKAY.
01:19:03 <Vorpal> kallisti, "figure of speech"
01:19:46 <kallisti> yeah but it's a specific one
01:19:52 <Vorpal> riight
01:20:18 <Vorpal> anyone know where android keep the group mappings?
01:20:31 <Vorpal> it has no /etc/passwd or /etc/groups
01:20:39 <Vorpal> yet "id" manages to work
01:22:08 <Vorpal> oh "Actually there is a stub for mapping the android_id to passwd structure. Although there is no physical /etc/passed, the stub should populate the values. "
01:25:48 <Vorpal> well, I'm going to sleep. Good night
01:26:11 <Vorpal> kallisti, don't forget to check out mycology. And I will ask you tomorrow how it all went I guess
01:26:19 <Vorpal> (how much you written so far and so on)
01:26:24 <kallisti> nothing.
01:26:30 <Vorpal> get started then!
01:26:37 <Vorpal> ;P
01:26:47 <kallisti> I need to work on things that get me paid, actually.
01:26:48 <kallisti> as usual.
01:26:53 <Vorpal> ouch
01:27:10 <kallisti> it's not too bad. I'm writing it in Haskell, because I can.
01:27:22 <Vorpal> I got a job. Will start last July
01:27:43 <kallisti> it will start a year ago? :P
01:27:51 <Vorpal> last of July :P
01:27:57 <Vorpal> at Atlas Copco. Will code in C++ on top of a real time OS
01:28:01 <Vorpal> mining rigs
01:28:06 <kallisti> nice.
01:28:30 <Vorpal> kallisti, it is easy to get jobs if you took computer science or computer engineering in Sweden
01:28:32 <kallisti> you should convince them to use FPC++
01:28:39 <Vorpal> FPC+ being?
01:29:02 <kallisti> oh wait it's FC++
01:29:03 <kallisti> I think
01:29:07 <Vorpal> what is FC++?
01:29:10 <kallisti> "functional C++"
01:29:13 <Vorpal> ouch
01:29:17 <kallisti> no it's good.
01:29:31 <Vorpal> kallisti, did you see pikhq's lambda's in C (using gcc for closures)
01:29:40 <Vorpal> ask him to give you a link otherwise
01:29:49 <Vorpal> it is awesome to look at
01:29:49 <kallisti> FC++ is actually well designed.
01:29:59 <Vorpal> riiight
01:30:14 <kallisti> it supports higher-order functions on functions with polymorphic types.
01:30:22 <Vorpal> okay
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01:30:25 <kallisti> which IIRC templates don't do.
01:30:25 <Vorpal> in C++
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01:30:26 <Vorpal> right
01:30:36 <Vorpal> is this a C++ library?
01:30:40 <kallisti> of course.
01:30:44 <Vorpal> right
01:30:47 <Vorpal> using templates?
01:30:54 <kallisti> believe so.
01:31:08 <Vorpal> what about boost?
01:31:11 <Vorpal> does it use boost?
01:31:21 <kallisti> they're working on getting it in boost actually
01:31:27 <Vorpal> ouch stop it!
01:31:33 <Vorpal> boost is not a good thing :P
01:31:37 <kallisti> it's not?
01:31:43 <Vorpal> it is over-engineered
01:31:50 <Vorpal> from what I have seen of it
01:32:04 <Vorpal> For me C++ is just a job. C++ is not fun.
01:32:10 <kallisti> I've used the async networking bits of it, and from what I can tell it's pretty well-designed.
01:32:17 <kallisti> I wouldn't expect interfaces to be simple in C++.
01:32:24 <Vorpal> well that is an issue
01:32:40 <Vorpal> Java or C# (with their standard libraries) are much nicer
01:32:57 <Vorpal> C# is actually a pretty decent imperative object oriented language
01:33:08 <Vorpal> java is not quite as decent
01:33:17 <Vorpal> (generics and type erasure for a start)
01:33:43 <kallisti> C# isn't bad
01:33:56 <Vorpal> indeed
01:34:04 <kallisti> I enjoy the way C++ "feels" if that makes sense.
01:34:06 <Vorpal> anyway I need to sleep
01:34:14 <Vorpal> kallisti, you sick sick person! :P
01:34:21 <Vorpal> C++ feels clunky
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01:34:50 <Vorpal> in fact most programming languages do to some extent, even haskell sometimes. But Haskell less than usual, and C++ more than usual
01:35:04 <Vorpal> anyway, night *closes lid on laptop running the irc client*
01:35:15 <kallisti> GOOD NIGHT
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01:52:55 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DAPXMZk2iw
01:53:01 <Phantom__Hoover> are those thumbs up numbers for real
01:53:15 <Phantom__Hoover> those are by far the highest I've ever seen
01:59:46 <ion> I’ve just been playing that game. \o/ It’s one of the best games i’ve played.
01:59:46 <myndzi> |
01:59:46 <myndzi> /´\
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02:05:06 <Phantom__Hoover> ion, well I did start playing it again yesterday in lieu of considering augur's comments on nonlethal and stealth, and decided I wasn't having any truck with either.
02:05:41 <Phantom__Hoover> Suffice to say, dragon's tooth sword + regen aug makes most of the game a cakewalk.
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02:06:28 <ion> I’ve been playing a stealth game, avoiding melée.
02:07:10 <Phantom__Hoover> So are you using the... one stealth non-melee weapon in the vanilla game?
02:08:01 <Phantom__Hoover> (Silenced sniper rifle, stealth pistol doesn't count since it can barely kill the average grunt with a headshot with pistols at master.)
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02:11:16 <ion> yes
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02:36:19 <zzo38> Maybe some is more and less clunky to you
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02:36:29 <zzo38> I do not understand exactly what you mean
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02:55:14 <zzo38> data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; What would it be called instead of "X"?
02:57:20 <pikhq> Aloha, folk.
03:01:48 <zzo38> Do you know what it would be called?
03:03:03 <zzo38> Do you know this one? data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; };
03:04:13 <zzo38> pikhq: Ahola, klof.
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03:40:40 * Sgeo attempts to remember the details of the proof of the theorem that ais523 and I did
03:41:15 <Sgeo> I seem to be caught up wondering why the assumption that the version of the pattern with the dead live cell could not be part of the loop if the pattern without the cell was
03:46:41 <Sgeo> There's a mistake in my restatement of the proof
03:46:46 <Sgeo> http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.07.23
03:47:26 <Sgeo> 00:51:41 <Sgeo> Now, for every pattern of a certain size or smaller, you can trivially make a precursor by putting a single live cell outside of causal contact with the pattern. Therefore, the pattern has a precursor, and therefore, there's a Garden of Eden that results in it.
03:48:17 <Sgeo> (Besides the sloppy wording, the extra cell doesn't result in having a precursor of the pattern added to, but a precursor of the pattern's next iteration)
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04:09:05 <zzo38> Do you know what to call these "X" and "Y" types instead of the names "X" and "Y"?
04:09:18 <edwardk> ?
04:09:30 <zzo38> data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; };
04:09:55 <edwardk> i got nothin
04:10:32 <zzo38> Are you sure?
04:11:16 <edwardk> yep
04:11:36 <zzo38> I don't know the proper name either.
04:12:00 <edwardk> if you drop the z parameter from X maybe you can spot something
04:12:41 <edwardk> X x y = (y -> X x y) looks like a hyperfunction
04:13:06 <edwardk> so you probably have something like a higher order hyperfunction there
04:13:12 <zzo38> Well, that isn't what it is, though. Here it is a GADT.
04:13:17 <edwardk> yes
04:13:23 <edwardk> but i'm fishing for intuition
04:13:28 <edwardk> because that type means nothing to me ;)
04:13:47 <edwardk> if you ignore the action on the third parameter you get a hyperfunction
04:14:00 <edwardk> so you have something hyperfunction-like, but i don't know how you would use it
04:14:22 <edwardk> its like a hyperfunction where you are building up a layer of x's for every step of the hyperfunction
04:14:53 <edwardk> kind of like a prepromorphism
04:15:09 <edwardk> but those aren't applied to non-uniformly recursive types like this
04:16:12 <edwardk> i would hazard that if you took the "initial algebra semantics are enough", there might be a way to make that prepromorphism connection more rigorous
04:17:49 <edwardk> you can probably annihilate X with a Jet or use it to consume one
04:18:00 <zzo38> What is Jet?
04:18:27 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/ad/blob/master/src/Numeric/AD/Internal/Jet.hs#L39
04:18:38 <edwardk> its a 'fully unzipped' cofree comonad
04:18:52 <edwardk> a :- f a :- f (f a) :- f (f (f a)) :- ...
04:19:13 <edwardk> your X wants to consume an a then an f a then an f (f a), etc.
04:20:09 <zzo38> It doesn't want to consume anything, as far as I can see.
04:20:42 <zzo38> It isn't a function.
04:21:21 <edwardk> ah you're right
04:21:22 <edwardk> hrmm
04:21:46 <edwardk> i was reading it as y z -> X x y (y z) -> X x y z
04:24:20 <edwardk> so now i have no intuition for it whatsoever ;)
04:24:23 <zzo38> I was thinking of uses with Yoneda and Density and so on.
04:25:22 <zzo38> It is never a Functor, as far as I can tell.
04:36:14 <zzo38> Do you figure out about CodensityAsk, CodensityAskT, DensityAsk, DensityAskT?
04:37:08 <zzo38> (The way I have it, (CodensityAsk w) make MonadPlus if w is Comonad; hopefully it is correct although I am not completely sure)
04:37:53 <edwardk> i've been busy packing for the last 2 days
04:38:07 <zzo38> I know; you told me that.
04:38:32 <quintopia> he's saying you're repetitive
04:38:57 <edwardk> finally got my new living room furniture. first time i reclined one of the loveseats, the whole thing burned out and shut down. now i have a loveseat i can't un-recline ;)
04:39:16 <edwardk> quintopia: well, so is the question ;)
04:39:17 <zzo38> Now you have to fix it, please.
04:39:35 <zzo38> Yes, that too.
04:39:35 <edwardk> now i'll let the people who shipped it to me fix it
04:40:58 <quintopia> ask a qestion again, expect a different answer
04:41:05 <quintopia> "do you love me yet?"
04:41:11 <zzo38> I don't know!
04:41:26 <edwardk> Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ;)
04:42:56 <zzo38> What is your CofreeT? Is it different to mine that is why you said mine was wrong? I can fix it if it is wrong
04:42:57 <quintopia> "do i qualify as sane now????"
04:43:09 <zzo38> quintopia: Ask again later.
04:43:15 <quintopia> "do i qualify as sane now????"
04:43:18 <zzo38> quintopia: Ask again later.
04:43:22 <quintopia> "do i qualify as sane now????"
04:43:24 <zzo38> quintopia: Ask again later.
04:44:05 <quintopia> damn that was hilarious but it is too long to quote
04:44:06 <edwardk> it put the w on the outside
04:44:12 <zzo38> OK
04:45:14 <zzo38> Did you have: data CofreeT f w x = CofreeT (w (x, f (CofreeT f w x)))
04:45:36 <edwardk> zzo38: more or less (the pair was a data type)
04:46:21 <edwardk> oh, i guess it wasn't
04:46:22 <edwardk> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/comonad-transformers/0.3/doc/html/Control-Comonad-Trans-Stream.html
04:46:47 <edwardk> i didn't check its laws and it was awkward as hell to reason about
04:47:21 <edwardk> the fact that freeT puts the m on the outside leads me to guess by analogy that the w may go on the inside like you had
04:47:25 <edwardk> so you may well have been correct
04:47:38 <edwardk> but this is the version i had
04:47:41 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I thought.
04:48:51 <edwardk> when i wrote that i was only just coming to terms with the way things had to distribute over one another to make a comonad transformer
04:49:02 <edwardk> (i had implemented many comonad-transformers incorrectly in category-extras)
04:49:53 <zzo38> My definitions of class methods are: duplicate (CofreeT x y) = CofreeT (x =>> flip CofreeT y) (duplicate <$> y); lower (CofreeT x _) = x;
04:50:52 <edwardk> *nods*
04:51:03 <edwardk> duplicate looks simple enough to be right
04:51:39 <edwardk> i'll validate it when i get around to adding CofreeT and FreeT to the free package
04:53:46 <zzo38> extract is also obviously correct, I think.
04:54:56 <zzo38> (I didn't specify fmap or extract, because fmap is known directly from the type, and extract = extract . lower)
04:55:30 <edwardk> sure
05:04:03 <zzo38> I did not post the CodensityAskT on here so now I will: newtype CodensityAskT w m x = CodensityAskT { runCodensityAskT :: forall z. w (m z) -> (x -> m z) -> m z };
05:07:42 <zzo38> You have said before that (Yoneda Endo) makes a Maybe monad, although you cannot get the instances for free. (CodensityAsk Identity) would be the same kind of things, isn't it? You will get Monad and MonadPlus instance for free.
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06:11:17 <edwardk> you get the instance of Monad for Yoneda Endo for free
06:11:26 <edwardk> er
06:11:27 <edwardk> wait
06:11:34 <edwardk> HMonad, not Monad, hrmm
06:13:14 <edwardk> the easiest way to get a 'free' definition for Maybe is Free Default using the Free c a = forall r. c r => (a -> r) -> r free monad
06:13:18 <zzo38> You can get the instance of Plus for Yoneda Endo for free at least in my definitions.
06:13:38 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes that works too.
06:14:01 <edwardk> in practice though, just working with Codensity Maybe is faster than working with the Yoneda Endo-based Maybe
06:14:18 <zzo38> OK
06:14:21 <edwardk> and that at least is a monad for free
06:14:32 <edwardk> and is isomorphic to Yoneda Endo
06:15:07 <zzo38> Unlike yours, you can also get the MonadPlus instance for free for (Codensity Endo), and it acts like a list monad.
06:16:42 <zzo38> class Plus f where { zero :: f x; plus :: f x -> f x -> f x; }; instance Plus Endo where { zero = mempty; plus = mappend; }; instance Plus f => MonadPlus (Codensity f) where { mzero = Codensity (const zero); mplus (Codensity x) (Codensity y) = Codensity (liftA2 plus x y); };
06:16:47 <edwardk> The difference is that CodensityAskT is sort of an ad hoc mess =P
06:16:55 <edwardk> hrmm
06:17:06 <zzo38> edwardk: O, yes, OK. Perhaps it is sort of an ad hoc mess.
06:17:37 <zzo38> But I don't know if it is so messy as to be wrong.
06:17:37 <edwardk> yeah, i buy Codensity Endo
06:18:04 <edwardk> its not wrong, its just not fundamental in any real useful way i can detect
06:18:42 <zzo38> (There is also CodensityAsk which is the same except without the "m"; the reason it is separate is because w could be anything not necessarily even a endofunctor or contrafunctor)
06:19:01 <zzo38> (Although to make a MonadPlus, w does need to be a comonad and therefore a endofunctor.)
06:19:27 <zzo38> Are you sure it is not wrong? I thought you said before that you were unsure?
06:19:39 <edwardk> i'm not sure
06:20:18 <edwardk> i meant that even granting it not being wrong, that it was an ad hoc mess =)
06:20:39 <zzo38> Yes I understand that.
06:23:02 <edwardk> i'm debating about weakening the requirement for MonadPlus (Codensity m) to just Plus m, i'm torn because the MonadPlus m => MonadPlus (Codensity m) is more useful to more people
06:24:40 <zzo38> edwardk: Well, I do have a overlappable instance Alternative f => Plus f so probably it is also Applicative and Alternative so it can be used.
06:24:51 <edwardk> that instance is a terrible idea
06:25:11 <edwardk> because it only works reliably if it is placed _in_ the module with any instance that overlaps it!
06:25:15 <zzo38> You need not do that, although even if you do, I think your Plus requires Functor anyways so it won't work
06:25:28 <edwardk> oh true
06:26:03 <zzo38> edwardk: No instances will actually overlap it though, since you will define Alternative rather than Plus if it can have that.
06:27:28 <edwardk> you'd have a 'compatible' instance, but the problem is that even so, if you make two instance Foo a and Foo Bar but you define Foo Bar in another module than the module you supplied Foo a, there exist circumstances where you may never get the Foo Bar instance to be taken.
06:27:49 <edwardk> SPJ has commented on this in the past when overlapping instances come up
06:28:31 <zzo38> I know overlapping instances is not the best solution but it is what Haskell has. The solutions in Ibtlfmm work better but we don't have that so instead we use what we do have.
06:29:09 <edwardk> no, its not that its what haskell has, its that if you use it, and will be adding more instances in any other module, your code is just broken
06:30:10 <edwardk> you can use overlapping instances if you define everything that overlaps with that instance in the same module as the 'too general' case, and it'll work correctly (in the absence of ConstraintKinds and other tomfoolery)
06:30:46 <zzo38> What happens if you define them in other modules?
06:30:49 <edwardk> but if you go to make a sweeping instance like the one you named, by construction people will want to make refinements later!
06:30:59 <edwardk> they often won't be seen
06:31:18 <edwardk> but its unpredictable because instances tend to infect a ghc --make session
06:31:58 <edwardk> in general the decision of what to do at an instance head has to be an entirely local decision
06:32:09 <zzo38> OK, but still, if you require the Plus and Alternative and MonadPlus to all use the same monoid, you should not get any problems, especially if you never actually define a Plus instance for something that has Alternative.
06:32:54 <zzo38> (I just put in overlapping instances to ensure it will compile. It seems it won't always compile if that is turned off.)
06:33:52 <edwardk> the statement that instance says is that 'the only instances of Plus are instances of Alternative', that is a much stronger statement than you want, and it can prevent the more specific rule for something that -is- only a Plus from being used in some difficult to write circumstances
06:33:54 <zzo38> I do understand the problems with overlapping instances but sometimes it is needed for some things.
06:34:11 <edwardk> i don't think you do, because you're still trying to use a flagrantly broken instance ;)
06:34:23 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes I saw those kind of things, but that isn't the only instance in that module.
06:37:36 <zzo38> If overlapping instances is not turned on, I get the error "Overlapping instances for Plus Endo" when doing something like (return 7 <|> (return 9 :: Codensity Endo Int)) even though there are no overlapping instances.
06:37:56 <zzo38> Why is that?
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06:39:24 <zzo38> Can you explain in what circumstances something that is only a Plus cannot be used?
06:40:33 <zzo38> You say that if you define the other instances in a different module they won't work. Have you tried this?
06:40:42 -!- variable has changed nick to const.
06:41:26 <zzo38> Well, I understand *some* problems with overlapping instances, not necessarily all.
06:42:56 <zzo38> One problem seems to be that you cannot mark individual instances in a module as normal, overlapping, or incoherent.
06:43:25 <zzo38> Not only would I like to be able to ark individual instances, I would also like TH splices to be able to do so.
06:45:02 <zzo38> I have thought of something else but might result in many other problems: Use a TH code that gets the list of instances of Alternative and of Plus and then make up individual instances of Plus for all Alternative if they don't already have instance of Plus too. But then it is possible different modules will have different instances even if the instances are the same.
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06:50:51 <zzo38> How do I fix it?
06:54:13 <edwardk> just tuned back in
06:54:27 <edwardk> i don't have the link handy for how it blows up
06:54:43 <edwardk> the th hack you mentioned is actually a reasonably correct solution
06:55:02 <edwardk> but it needs to probably be run in the module that defines the type
06:55:27 <edwardk> which means if you don't control the type, any instances you make will be orphans and subject to this problem
06:56:14 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought. It is possible different modules will have different instances even if the instances are the same, and maybe this can somehow cause problems?
06:58:49 <edwardk> it definitely causes problems
06:59:13 <edwardk> and will introduce even more overlap and incoherence if someone imports both of those modues
06:59:56 <edwardk> if you have Foo and Bar imports Foo, and defines an instance and Baz imports Foo and defines a similar instance, and Quux imports Bar and Baz, you're hosed. this is why orphan instances are bad
07:02:09 <zzo38> Yes I can understand.
07:02:47 <zzo38> I think the type class system how it is implemented in Haskell is just somewhat bad in general; it is why I proposed the Ibtlfmm system which should correct these and other problems.
07:05:49 <zzo38> In Ibtlfmm, it would be possible for types to have annotations. Two types that are the same type but with different annotations are still the same type. The purpose of the annotations is they can be accessed by macros. Since classes will just be type synonyms of some constraint with many parts (the methods, laws, superclasses, etc) then "instance" can also be a macro that takes this into consideration!
07:06:11 <zzo38> Therefore you can have default definition of class methods even though there needs not have this feature built-in to Ibtlfmm.
07:07:56 <zzo38> Do you think the type class system in Haskell is somewhat bad in general? Do you think this other way is better?
07:09:49 <edwardk> i think there are a number of fundamental issues that every such system needs to address, and that Haskell's system is the best of all the terrible systems I've seen tried.
07:10:24 <edwardk> I have no practical experience with your system, so I have no real stance on if its good/bad or just odd ;)
07:10:37 <zzo38> Yes that is probably true. Nevertheless I had my own ideas many of which have never been implemented as far as I know.
07:11:00 <edwardk> but my main concern is that if you don't have confluence of instance resolution, you'll wind up with the same sewer that scala has
07:11:09 <zzo38> You can't really have practical experience with my system since no implementation exists (not even the specification actually really exists completely).
07:11:18 <edwardk> and it isn't clear to me from your description whether that holds or not
07:11:31 <zzo38> What is confluence of instance resolution?
07:11:40 <zzo38> And what is the same sewer that scala has?
07:11:50 <edwardk> in haskell there is only one instance of 'Ord Int' for instance
07:12:04 <edwardk> in scala i can make up multiple implicit definitions for that
07:13:02 <edwardk> in haskell this means that, say, given two Set Int values that you know they were sorted the same way so you can use a hedge merge
07:13:27 <edwardk> but in scala, you get no such guarantee, so you must take the asymptotically slower solution of inserting every member of the smaller set into the larger
07:13:43 <zzo38> I have read and thought of the problems of having multiple instances of Ord Int such as making Set Int wrong; but what if you could have like this: Set :: Ord x => (* =x) -> * being the kind of the type Set (as Haskell's Set) therefore if the instance Ord Int is different, the type Set Int is also a different type.
07:14:57 <zzo38> You could be allowed to equate two different instances of the same thing in two different modules even in a third module; this is simply an assertion and if the computer doesn't attempt and succeed at disproving it then it is assumed to be equivalent.
07:15:21 <edwardk> yes, you can move constraints to the kind system
07:15:24 <zzo38> (And even if the computer does somehow disprove it, you would probably only get a warning.)
07:15:32 <edwardk> not sure i'm a fan of unchecked assertions like that ;)
07:16:20 <zzo38> Well, I mean that constraints are types and can be used on types but can also be used on kinds.
07:16:32 <edwardk> ok, i need to get some sleep, movers will be here in a few hours
07:16:39 <zzo38> OK, I can understand if you dislike these kind of unchecked assertions.
07:16:54 <zzo38> But, doesn't Haskell already have some such as GHC's RULES pragmas?
07:17:23 <edwardk> RULES pragmas are at least checked for type consistency
07:17:50 <edwardk> and they are accepted to be a sort of 'buyer beware' situation for extreme optimizations
07:18:06 <zzo38> (It is just that in the case of Ibtlfmm, they are somewhat stronger and the compiler is allowed to attempt to disprove them as long as it does not go into an infinite loop in doing so, and even if it does disprove it you should get a warning. There are other things that make them stronger too such as allowing implied stuff to be assumed too)
07:18:29 <edwardk> the situation you painted, would make you use this in many places where an ml programmer would be asserting the use of two modules with a type equality assertion
07:18:34 <edwardk> that happens a lot more
07:18:51 <zzo38> But with my idea of Set :: Ord x => (* =x) -> * then (Set Int) is not even a valid type if there is no instance Ord Int in scope.
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07:19:47 <Taneb> Hello!
07:20:14 <edwardk> FYI- jhc's internal representation of typeclasses in its 'E" language is somewhat similar to the subkinding representation of classes
07:20:27 <zzo38> What do you mean, asserting the use of two modules with a type equality assertion? How does that work?
07:20:31 <edwardk> you may get some insight into your problem domain
07:20:40 <edwardk> but i'm goign to sleep now =P
07:20:43 <zzo38> OK
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07:26:27 <zzo38> How do *you* think Ibtlfmm's class system and Haskell's class system will be compared?
07:27:05 <zzo38> Taneb: I do mean you, too.
07:27:56 <Taneb> Ibtlfmm?
07:29:10 <zzo38> Read the logs as well as my file I wrote some things about it (I may write another one later too).
07:29:23 <Taneb> `pastelogs Ibtlfmm
07:29:39 <zzo38> > map succ "Haskell"
07:29:41 <lambdabot> "Ibtlfmm"
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07:30:03 <HackEgo> No output.
07:30:09 <Taneb> :(
07:30:14 <zzo38> Oops! Is the pastelogs broken?
07:30:22 <zzo38> Just look at the recent logs for now.
07:31:48 <zzo38> Gregor: Do you know why the pastelogs is broken?
07:32:20 <zzo38> I cannot access the logs at all.
07:32:39 <zzo38> Let's try the other one.
07:33:30 <zzo38> This one works: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/12.07.08
07:34:22 <Taneb> Gregor, Codu.org seems to be down
07:52:30 <Taneb> zzo38, I don't really understand it. Can you give some examples of it in practise?
07:58:49 <ais523> !ping
07:58:54 <EgoBot> Pong!
07:59:06 <ais523> huh, I wasn't actually expecting a response
07:59:10 <ais523> this must be more complicated than it looks
07:59:34 <ais523> `echo Pong!
07:59:37 <HackEgo> Pong!
07:59:53 <ais523> `pastelogs Ibtlfmm
08:00:12 <Taneb> ais523, codu's down
08:00:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15514
08:00:23 <ais523> Taneb: I'm attempting to determine to what extent it's down
08:00:30 <Taneb> Oh, okay
08:01:44 <zzo38> type Monad (m :: * -> *) :: & = (Functor m, MonadLaws m, method return :: x. x -> m x, method join :: x. m (m x) -> m x);
08:01:49 <ais523> seems to be just the webserver that's having issues
08:02:06 <ais523> although seeing both glogbot and glogbackup here is a little confusing
08:05:49 <zzo38> Can you connect to that file linked using hg?
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08:20:46 <zzo38> What program was used to make optimized compression PNG file (on esolang wiki) for smaller size?
08:22:52 <zzo38> File:Grid processor.png has been reduced from 374 KB to 514 bytes.
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09:36:54 <zzo38> In golf, if a player hits his ball into another ball so that the other ball moves out of the way and the first ball slows down and ends up in the space where the other ball is supposed to be, what happens?
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10:16:02 <nortti-netbsd> yay
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10:29:27 <nortti-netbsd> juhani@misaki$ uname -a
10:29:38 <nortti-netbsd> NetBSD misaki 5.1.2 NetBSD 5.1.2 (GENERIC) #0: Thu Feb 2 17:22:10 UTC 2012 builds@b6.netbsd.org:/home/builds/ab/netbsd-5-1-2-RELEASE/i386/201202021012Z-obj/home/builds/ab/netbsd-5-1-2-RELEASE/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC i386
10:30:16 <nortti-netbsd> can someone explain how to use multiple channels in ircII?
10:31:17 <ion> ircII? Seriously? :-D
10:31:34 <nortti> it was faster to build than irssi
10:32:08 <nortti> after compiling lynx for 7 hours I didn't want to do that again
10:32:55 <shachaf> 7 hours?
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10:33:14 <nortti> yes. I'm running netbsd on qemu on my machine
10:33:24 <nortti> it runs about the same speed as mid
10:33:35 <nortti> *mid-end 486
10:33:52 <ion> How about using virtualization instead of emulation?
10:34:32 <nortti> are there any virtualization programs that don't use loads of memory
10:35:48 <shachaf> Get more memory.
10:35:49 <ion> Dunno about memory, but i’ve used VirtualBox.
10:36:31 <ion> Also, e.g. 8 or 16 gigabytes of memory is quite cheap nowadays.
10:36:55 <nortti> actually big part of lynx compilation time was spent building gmake and libraries
10:37:53 <nortti> ion: my computer can be maxed out at 512MB. it just needs rams sticks that I can't find (pc100)
10:38:38 <nortti> also one of the two ram slots seem damaged so 256MB
10:40:11 <shachaf> Get more computer.
10:41:27 <nortti-netbsd> foo
10:42:22 <nortti-netbsd> kaytan netbsd:ta ja tassa n. 20v vanhassa irkkiclientissa joka oli nopein kaantaa ei oo tukea skandeille
10:42:31 <nortti-netbsd> saadan netbsd:ta
10:43:11 <nortti> forget that
10:43:42 <shachaf> Does NetBSD only support gibberishese. :-(
10:44:25 <nortti> it is finnish. ircII doesn't seem to handle queries
10:49:00 <ion> I was under the impression they actually added UTF-8 support to ircII some time ago.
10:49:06 <ion> Perhaps i remember incorrectly.
10:50:09 <nortti> it cuts of the most significant bit of byte
10:50:41 <nortti> now I'm compiling irssi
10:53:40 <nortti-netbsd> why don't they have binary packages that work on i586? I have to compile _everything_ from source
10:56:25 <nortti> http://qdb.us/305435
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10:59:53 <nortti-netbsd> I mean building software on irtual machine as fast as 486 is not fun
10:59:57 <nortti-netbsd> *virtual
11:00:18 <nortti-netbsd> but oh well. no one is forcing me to use netbsd
11:01:31 <nortti> http://qdb.us/307755
11:03:14 <nortti> can someone explain to me how uptime load average numbers work?
11:12:46 <nortti-netbsd> ok. so that is how I have 1.38 load
11:20:30 <zzo38> Now I made up this: catchCodensityAskT :: (Functor w, Monad m) => w (CodensityAskT w m x) -> CodensityAskT w m x -> CodensityAskT w m x;
11:22:00 <ion> nortti: uptime(1) explains it.
11:25:05 <nortti> well I don't have man installed...
11:25:25 <nortti> with a little bit of googling I found it
11:25:49 <zzo38> Why don't you have man installed?
11:26:29 <nortti> well I have man but is requires retawq
11:27:35 <shachaf> ion: Why is #haskell so horrible?
11:27:37 <shachaf> Was it always?
11:27:45 <ion> Probably
11:28:06 <shachaf> Why do you go there?
11:28:26 <ion> Because it’s not that bad.
11:28:32 <ion> Why do you go there?
11:28:38 <shachaf> Because it's that bad.
11:28:45 <shachaf> I don't know why.
11:28:47 <shachaf> Habit.
11:28:51 <shachaf> Sometimes it's good.
11:35:31 <zzo38> I made up the catch for CodensityAsk; can it be made finally as well?
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11:55:26 <zzo38> (CodensityAsk Predicate) seems to be the exhaustively searchable set monad as in "infinite-search" package. The type can be proven the same by Yoneda and the monad seem to work same way too
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12:14:34 <nortti> why does autoconfig test for fortran 77 compatibility when building irssi?
12:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a standard check, presumably?
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13:26:00 <Vorpal> hm
13:26:17 <Vorpal> autoconfig do a lot of pointless checks in general
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13:27:59 <Vorpal> does*
13:29:59 <nortti> oh. it wasn't irssi. it was libtool
13:30:17 <nortti> irssi seems to have it as dependency
14:37:45 <kallisti> what a tool.
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16:58:09 <zzo38> Do you have ideas to name data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; data Y :: ((* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { Y :: forall (w :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> *) (x :: * -> *) y z. w x y (x z) -> Y w y z; };
16:58:55 <Lumpio-> ...did you expect an actual answer or did you just want to show off your unreadable piece of code?
16:59:06 <zzo38> I expect an actual answer.
16:59:31 <zzo38> If you think it is unreadable then maybe it is because you do not understand how to read a Haskell code very well.
17:00:07 <zzo38> These are two GADTs which may have a use in some circumstances.
17:00:11 <Lumpio-> Well for one I'm pretty sure that one-letter variables with no context to explain them are shunned in any language.
17:00:29 <Lumpio-> s/variables/identifiers/
17:00:36 <zzo38> It is the uppercase names (X and Y) which I want to rename that is what I am asking.
17:06:05 <Sgeo> Should I assume no Europeans here play the lottery?
17:07:38 <Lumpio-> I prefer not to play games that are based purely on chance.
17:07:43 <Lumpio-> Where's the fun
17:07:53 <Lumpio-> You might as well flip coins and try to guess the next result
17:08:17 <copumpkin> zzo38: what operations on that type would you define?
17:08:30 <copumpkin> or those types
17:10:04 <zzo38> copumpkin: They are types that may be used somewhere that intends a type containing the other type, sort of
17:10:09 <copumpkin> hmm
17:14:07 <augur> zzo38: I'd name the first one B
17:14:30 <zzo38> augur: Why should it be?
17:14:41 <augur> its the blurbird combinator, aka composition
17:14:55 <augur> or thats the way it looks, anyway. :)
17:15:17 <augur> its not literally bluebird, ofcourse, but the way the arguments look is reminiscent
17:15:18 <zzo38> It doesn't seem like that to me these are GADTs.
17:15:31 <augur> its just the look of the thing, zzo38, thats all
17:15:45 <augur> X :: y z -> X x y (x z)
17:16:02 <augur> bluebird is B : (y -> z) -> (x -> y) -> (x -> z)
17:16:42 <augur> even tho the thing as NOTHING to do with bluebird, it still has that look, so mnemonically..
17:17:06 <augur> lets see tho
17:17:19 <augur> X :: f x -> X f g (g x)
17:18:01 -!- function has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
17:18:29 <zzo38> (\(CoYoneda x (X y)) -> x (maybe [] return y)) :: CoYoneda (X [] Maybe) t -> t is one example
17:18:31 <augur> it looks like some sort of widget related to natural transformations
17:19:36 <zzo38> Yes maybe it might be something like that
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17:29:58 <zzo38> (CodensityAsk $ \(X q) k -> k 'a' ++ k 'b' ++ maybe [] return q) :: CodensityAsk (X [] Maybe) Char
17:34:18 <zzo38> These are some examples (although there may be more). Now would you understand a bit? And then be able to decide the names?
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18:45:45 <nortti-netbsd> @pong
18:45:45 <lambdabot> pong
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18:55:42 <oerjan> hm is codu down?
18:55:51 <oerjan> afk
18:56:06 <john_metcalf> It's down here.
18:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Same here.
18:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, fix your damn website.
18:57:23 <nortti> is it broken?
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19:00:25 <nortti> kallisti: spirity.org requires authorization
19:00:38 <nortti> is this intended?
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19:02:01 <kallisti> nortti: for the time being.
19:02:35 <kallisti> nortti: wait are you getting an auth challenge?
19:02:41 <kallisti> because I'm just getting a 403
19:02:58 <nortti> I am getting auth dialog
19:03:05 <kallisti> ah okay.
19:03:21 <kallisti> nortti: I'm trying to set up subdomains properly.
19:03:23 <nortti> when I press esc I get 401
19:03:46 <kallisti> right now my DNS has an A record where * points to my IP.
19:03:51 <kallisti> so all subdomains go to the same IP.
19:04:22 <kallisti> but I think that's... wrong.
19:04:55 <nortti> why?
19:05:09 <kallisti> well, I'm not sure how I can have multiple virtual hosts on the same IP.
19:05:12 <kallisti> does it use reverse DNS or something?
19:06:03 <kallisti> oh nevermind
19:06:05 <kallisti> Host header.
19:06:16 <nortti> you forgot _that_?
19:06:29 <kallisti> I... guess so.
19:06:37 <kallisti> I was thinking at the DNS/IP level.
19:06:40 <kallisti> not the... HTTP level.
19:06:59 <nortti> well if you don't try to
19:07:23 <kallisti> what does the realm same for the auth?
19:07:26 <nortti> +serve different ftp pages from subdomains it seems to be ok
19:07:36 <nortti> or gopher pages
19:08:57 <kallisti> right, for other protocols I would need seperate IPs, right?
19:09:04 <kallisti> or can you do DNS tricks?
19:09:35 <kallisti> what I'm confused about is why spirity.org is asking for auth
19:09:43 <kallisti> when it should just be a 404 or something like that.
19:10:26 <kallisti> the auth should only be a for a subdomain.
19:10:37 <nortti> strange
19:10:43 <kallisti> the main site shouldn't exist at all ATM.
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19:11:45 <Vorpal> kallisti, https requires separate IPs per host in general. You may be able to get away with subdomains, if you have a wildcard SSL cert (*.foo.net for example, though plain foo.net wouldn't work then)
19:12:03 <Vorpal> basically the server needs to select the SSL cert to use before it gets the Host header
19:12:33 <kallisti> yeah my current cert isn't a wildcard (I didn't even know that was a thing)
19:12:48 <Vorpal> it is a thing, but there is no way afaik to say "foo.net or *.foo.net"
19:12:53 <Vorpal> which is kind of stupid
19:13:27 <Vorpal> anyway, I have no idea how you make them, I just know they exist (and I have run into that annoying foo.net fail thingy a few times)
19:13:31 <kallisti> I could do email-based verification.
19:13:36 <kallisti> instead of domain.
19:13:42 <Vorpal> huh?
19:14:09 <kallisti> I don't know.
19:14:09 <kallisti> ..
19:14:12 <Vorpal> right
19:14:31 <Vorpal> do your site do spdy?
19:14:47 <kallisti> probably not.
19:14:53 <kallisti> strange that nginx allows you to configure ssl certs per virtual host.
19:15:07 <kallisti> if it needs the Host header to determine which virtual host to use, and it needs the cert to get the Host header.
19:15:20 <Vorpal> hm, maybe that happens because the generic way the config is parsed or something?
19:15:39 <Vorpal> kallisti, or does the same block or whatever allow you to define ip-based virtual hosts?
19:15:42 <Vorpal> that would explain it
19:15:53 <kallisti> IP or hostname
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19:15:59 <Vorpal> there you have it then
19:16:10 <Vorpal> the ssl cert option only makes sense for IP based virtual hosts
19:17:39 <kallisti> Vorpal: I got my cert through a free CA, and they seem to have email-based verification instead of domain name verification
19:17:47 <kallisti> perhaps that doesn't apply to HTTPs though.
19:17:50 <kallisti> *HTTPS
19:17:58 <Vorpal> huh, that is kind of weird
19:18:02 <Deewiant> Vorpal: nginx doesn't yet support SPDY (but there's a beta batch for it, so it's probably coming "soon")
19:18:16 <nortti> SPDY?
19:18:23 <Vorpal> nortti, google it
19:19:13 <kallisti> it's another attempt by Google to redefine web standards.
19:19:40 <Vorpal> kallisti, well, at least they try to make their redefinitions open, unlike some other vendors
19:19:53 <nortti> oh. is it the one they try to replace https with?
19:19:56 <Vorpal> anyway, didn't it improve the bandwidth usage and response time quite a bit?
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19:20:22 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm "In June 2012 NGINX, Inc. announced support for SPDY in the open source web server Nginx.[32]"
19:20:30 <Vorpal> I guess that might refer to the beta patch
19:20:35 <Deewiant> Yes
19:20:40 <Deewiant> http://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx-devel/2012-June/002343.html
19:21:55 <kallisti> I like the statelessness of HTTP, it makes implementation of simple clients... simple.
19:23:36 <Vorpal> hm looks like spdy allows encryption and name based virtual hosts
19:23:40 <Vorpal> possibly
19:24:44 <zzo38> Just use SSH if you want secure connections, instead of using HTTPS and HTML and all of that stuff. SSH allows you to use key based authentication and operates by command-line.
19:24:47 <kallisti> out of the box nginx actually doesn't support digest auth
19:24:58 <kallisti> which is why I'm using basic auth, because I don't feel like recompiling it with the digest auth module.
19:25:31 <Vorpal> zzo38, ... ssh and https have completely different uses in many cases.
19:25:39 <Vorpal> neither can replace the other
19:25:59 <Vorpal> kallisti, really? no digest?
19:26:05 <Vorpal> well I guess basic works fine over https
19:27:32 <kallisti> basic auth never expires right?
19:27:35 <kallisti> or how does that work?
19:27:37 <Vorpal> hm no idea
19:27:46 <Vorpal> I guess that might be an issue
19:27:46 <Deewiant> Both basic and digest are broken without https anyway, and if you have https basic is fine
19:27:47 <kallisti> might be why nortti is getting an auth challenge and I'm getting a 403
19:28:01 <zzo38> Yes that is true they do have different use but there are many things that SSH just does better but they use HTTPS (or even insecure HTTP) anyways
19:28:02 <Vorpal> kallisti, restart browser?
19:28:02 <kallisti> even though I authenticated like... yesterday.
19:28:15 <kallisti> but... but I'm using it. :P
19:28:33 <Vorpal> kallisti, my browser is set to restore the tabs when it opens
19:28:38 <Vorpal> so for me that is a non-issue
19:29:10 <Vorpal> well, I need to sleep, cya
19:29:47 <kallisti> yeah oka.
19:29:49 <kallisti> *okay
19:29:58 <kallisti> now I'm getting the auth challenge.
19:30:08 <kallisti> apparently basic auth lasts indefinitely..
19:30:23 <kallisti> how... basic. :P
19:30:57 <kallisti> so yeah I have no clue what's happening. so far nginx has been a pain to configure correctly.
19:31:46 <zzo38> You could even run other protocols over SSH if you need to, but often just SSH itself should do
19:32:19 <kallisti> text editing on a laggy ssh session is painful. :(
19:32:50 <zzo38> Yes it can be if it is not a local network; but you could just edit the file locally and then use remote copy.
19:32:59 <kallisti> yes
19:33:06 <kallisti> once I have my server config
19:33:14 <kallisti> I plan to use git to do automatic transfers
19:33:25 <kallisti> via update hook
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19:34:12 <kallisti> so any push to the remote repo will automatically reset --hard a repo in the server root.
19:34:43 <kallisti> *web server root
19:36:01 <kallisti> yeah okay.
19:36:05 <kallisti> for now I won't use subdomains.
19:36:39 <kallisti> the only real benefit is that cookies don't transfer across subdomains. otherwise it's largely cosmetic.
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19:41:39 <Ngevd> Hello
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19:52:57 <kallisti> bye
19:55:35 <zzo38> To purchase stuff by internet, implement this protocol (keep the existing ones too but deprecate them): You connect to the online store, figure out how much money it is worth, connect using SSH to your account with money, issue a split command with the amount you need to pay to create a new account, send key of new account, merchant transfer to their own account, and then approve payment.
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19:57:05 <zzo38> But first you have to go to some store and pay them in cash for the SSH account, and the merchant when receiving money, go to some store or bank to receive the cash.
19:59:20 <zzo38> HTTPS is a stupid way to do internet money transfer.
20:00:30 <quintopia> zzo38: what is stupid about it
20:01:04 <zzo38> What I described.
20:02:02 <quintopia> i didnt see you describe it. repeat?
20:04:20 <zzo38> For one thing you need to fill in all forms, you need HTML, JavaScript, popup ads, and various special accounts (you cannot simply go to the bank and do it), there are some security issues (scams, frauds, homograph attacks, etc), and HTTP is for hypertext transfer protocol, for documents not for other things
20:04:33 <zzo38> Anyways, SSH use key based authentication.
20:06:49 <zzo38> SSH is just a more secure protocol.
20:06:54 <quintopia> yeah i think you're just doing it wrong
20:07:41 <quintopia> https is cryptographically secure as long as you trust the certificate authority (and don't accept invalid certificates)
20:08:05 <quintopia> js, popup ads, etc. can be disabled easily without disabling https
20:08:24 <quintopia> and i don't know what special accounts you are talking about, but i suspect they are accounts that most people already have.
20:09:27 <zzo38> Cryptographically, yes. But that is not the only issue. Anyways you need the same, if they accept PayPal then you need PayPal, if they accept MasterCard then you should need MasterCard instead; with my scheme you need just your service provider and the various banks have agreement with each other (by law), then you can pay them if there is such chain.
20:09:47 <zzo38> You need no bank account, you need no credit card, no gift card, just pay.
20:10:04 <zzo38> Whoever you are paying, does not need any of these things either.
20:10:18 <zzo38> Keep the current system but compatibility purpose but deprecate it.
20:10:49 <quintopia> i think you are a bit crazy
20:11:02 <quintopia> but what you are describing is basically covered by bitcoin
20:11:06 <zzo38> Perhaps that is true but I think it is irrelevant.
20:11:15 <zzo38> And no I do not quite mean like bitcoin.
20:12:03 <quintopia> the system you described requires about the same amount of work to do a transaction as bitcoin
20:12:17 <quintopia> paypal is a hell of a lot easier to use
20:14:59 <zzo38> No it does not require a lot of work if you have paid the bank ahead of time a large sum of money which you use to pay various merchants by internet. No forms to fill, no web pages to view, no virtual shopping cart, just ssh key file amount of money go.
20:15:44 <zzo38> Keep PayPal if some people prefer it but when you accept that method mark it as deprecated and specify SSH as preferred method.
20:16:00 <coppro> most paypal users do not know what deprecated means
20:16:27 <zzo38> Then write "warning" instead of "deprecated".
20:16:54 <zzo38> Or specify in other words.
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20:33:16 <quintopia> most paypal users do not know what SSH key file means
20:34:36 <zzo38> Yes, like I said, they can use PayPal if they want, even though its use should be discouraged.
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20:35:10 <quintopia> yeah that's a good way to make a new system catch on
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20:35:31 <quintopia> "hey you can keep doing it the old way if you like, but we'd rather you did this much more difficult thing!"
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21:13:49 <nortti> interesting. there is a port of mksh to android
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22:02:25 <nortti_> @ping
22:02:26 <lambdabot> pong
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22:03:19 <oerjan> oon less botti
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22:04:01 <fizzie> More like "enoobotti".
22:04:09 <nortti_> oerjan: what does that mean?
22:04:39 <oerjan> i dunno, i don't speak finnish
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22:38:20 <kallisti> would it be a bad idea to chmod o-rx /etc ?
22:38:44 <nortti> kallisti: what is in there in your system?
22:38:44 <kallisti> I imagine some user program might need to read a config file from there.
22:39:11 <nortti> at least /etc/passwd is read by some programs
22:39:13 <kallisti> nortti: the kitchen sink. Debian loves /etc
22:39:16 <nortti> like irssi
22:39:47 <kallisti> I recall using a Gentoo box where /etc was o-r
22:40:12 <kallisti> nothing bad happened that I recall. but I didn't try much.
22:41:05 <kallisti> yeah so I'll just leave /etc open...
22:43:33 <kallisti> but yeah in Debian there's almost guaranteed to be a non-root app that needs to reads its default config from /etc
22:43:51 <nortti> /etc/profile
22:45:45 <kallisti> but chmod o-r /home; chmod o-rx /home/*
22:45:47 <kallisti> seems pretty reasonable
22:46:25 <kallisti> not that I'm managing a shared host or anything, but... yak shaving is my speciality.
22:47:04 <oerjan> kallisti: you probably know this, but o-r means programs can look up files in /etc, but only if they can guess the name
22:47:37 <oerjan> which is probably all a reasonable program does
22:47:58 <kallisti> oh, it seems to work differently for x then.
22:48:08 <kallisti> can't cd into a directory if a parent isn't +x
22:48:19 <kallisti> or... maybe I'm mistaken?
22:49:10 <kallisti> oh right, nevermind
22:52:57 <quintopia> someone save me a lot of time and energy by giving me an rsync command that exactly duplicates a source directory and is easy to recover when the transfer inevitably breaks halfway through
22:54:00 <kallisti> I use rsync -avX
22:54:06 <kallisti> -a is the main one.
22:54:18 <kallisti> but it depends on what you mean by "exactly"
22:54:33 <kallisti> what do you want to do with hard links, for example.
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22:56:39 <quintopia> eh i dont care what happens
22:56:43 <kallisti> quintopia: --delete is sometimes handy
22:56:44 <quintopia> since there are none
22:56:54 <quintopia> and my target is empty
22:57:06 <quintopia> what is -a
22:57:31 <kallisti> "archive mode", it's a shorthand for a bunch of other options.
22:57:41 <quintopia> kk
22:57:52 <kallisti> recursive, preserve symlink as symlinks, preserve permissions, preserve modification times
22:57:55 <kallisti> and I think some other stuff.
22:58:02 <quintopia> and X?
22:58:17 <kallisti> preserve extended attributes
22:58:37 <kallisti> you might also want -H (preserve hard links) and -A (preserve access control lists) but I didn't see a need.
22:58:38 <quintopia> cool
22:59:09 <kallisti> and --delete is nice if you want the destination to look exactly like the source when you're done
22:59:37 <quintopia> but there shouldn't be any orphaned files to delete if the target is empty right?
22:59:45 <kallisti> also --delete-excluded, if you changed your exclude options and want the copy to delete them too.
22:59:48 <kallisti> quintopia: right
22:59:58 <quintopia> okie
23:00:27 * kallisti has an exclude file in his home that excludes a bunch of directories he doesn't really need backups of.
23:01:07 <kallisti> like .cache for example.
23:02:02 <kallisti> .mozilla/firefox/*/Cache/* is another good one.
23:02:13 <kallisti> anything with "cache" in the name. :P
23:02:29 <kallisti> also .cpan, .ghc, and everything in .cabal except for the config.
23:02:55 <kallisti> there's probably countless other stuff to exclude... I just haven't.
23:03:21 <quintopia> i'm just copying one very large subdir, so i pretty much want everything in it to go
23:03:42 <kallisti> how large?
23:04:15 <quintopia> eh i dunno, many gigs. enough that i used -z.
23:06:57 <kallisti> it would be nice if rsync had an option that let you insert a script to execute instead of --delete
23:07:02 <kallisti> granted that's a huge security problem.
23:07:24 <oerjan> http://r6.ca/blog/20120708T122219Z.html :D
23:07:29 <kallisti> but basically it would be nice if you could rename target files that were deleted in the source dir to have a ~ postfix
23:07:41 <oerjan> only in haskell...
23:08:00 <kallisti> haha
23:09:30 <kallisti> some people would interpret this as a benefit of using Haskell, but I interpret it as a flaw in thinking that goes something like: "oh Haskell has a great type system, therefore my code is correct!"
23:09:53 <kallisti> which results in less testing.
23:15:39 <zzo38> I do test the Haskell programs.
23:20:02 <Lumpio-> But do you prove their correctness?
23:25:23 <zzo38> That would need to be done by mathematics.
23:27:48 * oerjan also chuckles at the last paragraph of http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/w7zd8/i_never_tested_this_code_before_releasing_it/c5b5n26?context=1
23:33:30 <zzo38> Knuth once wrote: Warning: I have only proven this program correct, not tested it.
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23:38:41 <zzo38> You (or someone) said my type data X :: (* -> *) -> (* -> *) -> * -> * where { X :: y z -> X x y (x z); }; is related to widget for natural transformation; is it? That still doesn't tell me exactly to rename
23:41:27 <oerjan> i definitely didn't say that, since i don't know what that is
23:43:56 <zzo38> I did not mean you personally.
23:44:02 <zzo38> I means someone in this channel.
23:44:44 <oerjan> well edwardk is my prime suspect and is not currently present
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23:48:22 <zzo38> Do you know what is it called if a tensor category satisfying: f . g = f *** g (for all f and g as long as the types match)
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23:57:27 <zzo38> edwardk didn't know about that X either. But what would you think this datatype (GADT) seems to be?
23:57:40 <zzo38> I can understand some uses of it, but I don't know what to call it.
23:58:17 <quintopia> call it zzothing
23:58:23 <quintopia> zzonad
2012-07-09
00:00:23 <zzo38> I think it might be related to Kan extensions as well.
00:05:45 <zzo38> For example you can have: CoYoneda (X [] Maybe)
00:08:34 <zzo38> I suppose it is a bit like (X x y) is decomposing the type x from y, sort of.
00:09:18 <zzo38> What would you think of this way?
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04:37:14 <zzo38> I thought of simultaneous chess boxing where you have to call out the moves while you are fighting your opponent too. (You can use algebraic or descriptive notation.) There is chess clock but only the referee needs to touch them and to update the view of the board on the walls (there is none on the ceiling).
04:47:23 <zzo38> I figured out how you can make a free monad using a F-algebra: toFree (CodensityAsk f) = f (Algebra Free) Pure; mkFree x = CodensityAsk (\(Algebra q) k -> q (fmap k x));
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05:02:59 <coppro> ho, edwardk
05:03:05 <edwardk> heya
05:03:32 <coppro> how do you manage all your haskell code so that you can easily use it when you run ghci or the like?
05:03:42 <coppro> I need to start cabalizing and that means I need more than one directory tree
05:04:19 <edwardk> i make a cabal project for each thing i work on
05:04:21 <edwardk> then its just there
05:05:48 <coppro> but how do you ensure that ghci loads all your projects?
05:06:21 <edwardk> when you cabal install the project it will get loaded when you use it
05:06:27 <edwardk> eg. in cabal install 'ad'
05:06:29 <edwardk> then i run ghci
05:06:33 <edwardk> and import Numeric.AD
05:06:41 <edwardk> and it just works since ghc-pkg has the package unhidden
05:07:19 <coppro> so you use local installs?
05:09:11 <edwardk> yes
05:09:22 <edwardk> i just use 'cabal install' as my build process
05:09:37 <edwardk> and then forget about the package and move on to the next when i start working on that
05:11:22 <coppro> haha
05:13:16 <edwardk> another useful thing to make ghci happy
05:13:16 <edwardk> is to make your project source files sit in a src dir
05:13:36 <edwardk> and add it via hs-source-dirs
05:13:36 <edwardk> that way ghci doesn't try to load the file directly when you are in the top level project folder
05:13:47 <edwardk> which can matter a lot when you have interesting build processes
05:15:17 <edwardk> i try to do that all the time when i have a package with a c library dependency or something else complicated
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06:03:35 <zzo38> I always run a Haskell code in GHCi although I may compile executable files too sometimes.
06:04:15 <zzo38> I figured out how you can make a free monad using a F-algebra: toFree (CodensityAsk f) = f (Algebra Free) Pure; mkFree x = CodensityAsk (\(Algebra q) k -> q (fmap k x));
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06:23:08 <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday.
06:23:39 <coppro> `addquote <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday.
06:23:50 <HackEgo> 849) <zzo38> Sleep on the ceiling next Sunday.
06:25:14 <soundnfury> Because g is a vector!
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07:06:23 <fizzie> Why isn't it g then.
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07:50:31 <Vorpal> hm the mount options used on android are kind of crazy...
07:51:10 <quintopia> are they funny
07:51:30 <Vorpal> most partitions are mounted noatime, of the two that are mounted relatime instead, one is also mounted ro
07:51:38 <Vorpal> so the relatime has no effect
07:52:19 <Vorpal> quintopia, http://sprunge.us/dEXZ
07:52:38 <Vorpal> I like how it fakes the internal storage being an sdcard by using fuse
07:53:05 <Vorpal> the fuse file system emulates a FAT-style file system when it comes to permissions
07:53:31 <Vorpal> /mnt/sdcard is actually stored at /data/media
07:54:31 <Vorpal> (I don't have a real microSD yet, going to buy one later this week hopefully)
07:55:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/EGaM
07:55:32 <Vorpal> also I don't know why /mnt/sdcard is mounted relatime when the underlying directory for it is mounted noatime
07:55:36 <Vorpal> how does that work
07:56:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, n900? What is up with the bind mounts?
07:56:03 <pikhq_> Ah, Android. Because screw your concepts of userspace, we just want init=/bin/dalvik
07:56:21 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I don't think init is /system/bin/dalvik?
07:56:30 <Vorpal> (there is no /bin)
07:56:34 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's not, but they very obviously wish it could be.
07:56:42 <Vorpal> shell@android:/ $ ps
07:56:42 <Vorpal> USER PID PPID VSIZE RSS WCHAN PC NAME
07:56:42 <Vorpal> root 1 0 528 356 ffffffff 00000000 S /init
07:56:52 <pikhq_> Then you wouldn't need anything else!
07:56:56 <Vorpal> what sort of name is /init?
07:57:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, fun fact: Samsung sucks at programming
07:57:13 <olsner> Vorpal: presumably that's the path to init
07:57:17 <Vorpal> olsner, nope
07:57:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's nothing especially "up" with them, it's just that the / partition is kinda small so large packages put themselves in /opt (which is physically on /home, a larger partition) and then do some bind mounts if they "need" to be somewhere in /usr.
07:57:23 <pikhq_> The sort of name devised by people who hate everything.
07:57:55 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I get two zombie sh processes every time I plug the phone into a computer. The parent is /system/bin/kiesexe, Kies is Samsung's PC bloatware suite for phones
07:58:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
07:58:50 <Vorpal> $ busybox df -h /
07:58:50 <Vorpal> Filesystem Size Used Available Use% Mounted on
07:58:51 <Vorpal> df: /: can't find mount point
07:58:51 <Vorpal> what?
07:58:56 <Vorpal> the built in df works
07:59:03 <Vorpal> $ df /
07:59:03 <Vorpal> Filesystem Size Used Free Blksize
07:59:07 <Vorpal> / 0K 0K 0K 4096
07:59:10 <Vorpal> but doesn't make sense
07:59:30 <Vorpal> pikhq_, any idea what is going on with / on android?
07:59:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah I see
08:00:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, which one is your sdcard?
08:00:05 <Vorpal> if you have one
08:00:12 <fizzie> I don't have one, and I've forgotten where it goes to.
08:00:23 <Vorpal> /dev/mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDocs type vfat (rw,noauto,nodev,noexec,nosuid,noatime,nodiratime,utf8,uid=29999,shortname=mixed,dmask=000,fmask=0133,rodir) <-- why is that vfat?
08:00:24 <fizzie> The thing in /home/user/MyDocs is the ~30G internal storage thing.
08:00:24 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Only that Android userspace is a tower of lies.
08:00:29 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well yes
08:00:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose to be "more compatible". It's what gets exported if you plug the phone in as a mass storage device.
08:00:53 <Vorpal> pikhq_, the id->group/user mappings are hard coded tables in the libc from what I understand
08:01:02 <pikhq_> Yup.
08:01:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, which means the busybox id doesn't work
08:01:13 <Vorpal> well the busybox I have at least
08:01:21 <Vorpal> which is presumably compiled against a different libc
08:01:24 <pikhq_> Keep in mind that they literally *started with* a BSD libc...
08:01:34 <pikhq_> They *actually had to work* to make this suck.
08:01:41 <Vorpal> oh? I thought they wrote bionic from scratch?
08:01:45 <pikhq_> No.
08:01:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, so no MTP?
08:02:21 <Vorpal> btw, my phone does MTP. It is kind of funky. Works kind of randomly sometimes under linux on the computer
08:02:32 <pikhq_> It's a fork of a BSD libc with actual *effort* applied to it to make it suck.
08:02:39 <Vorpal> pikhq_, ouch
08:03:04 <pikhq_> That's not them being lazy, that is them *actually hating you*.
08:03:09 <Vorpal> anyway, even under windows it seems like MTP doesn't do IO scheduling. You can not start two copy operations to/from the phone at once!
08:03:12 <Vorpal> Why
08:03:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: No; it has two modes, the mass storage one and then Nokia's PC Suite mode which makes it pretend to be a pile of devices, I don't even know what all of them do. (But there's the "can talk AT commands to" regular modem one.)
08:03:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
08:03:32 <fizzie> So terribly many processes: http://sprunge.us/EahJ
08:03:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, how much internal storage does it have?
08:03:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh, not much more than my ubuntu laptop I bet
08:04:09 <Vorpal> dragon $ ps aux | wc -l
08:04:09 <Vorpal> 164
08:04:12 <fizzie> 32G, of which about 30G go to MyDocs.
08:04:25 <Vorpal> shell@android:/ $ ps | wc -l
08:04:26 <Vorpal> 174
08:04:32 <Vorpal> (this ps doesn't do a, u or x)
08:04:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, why would anyone want 30 GB of vfat...
08:05:31 <fizzie> Why not? You're supposed to put your photos, videos and music there. Why would the filesystem matter especially much? It's not like it wouldn't format the microSD card VFAT too.
08:05:40 <quintopia> dont call it fat! its not PC!
08:06:02 <Vorpal> well, you can't run linux software that want proper permissions from it
08:07:08 <Vorpal> BogoMIPS: 1592.52 <-- the CPU runs at 1.4 GHz, what a strange number of NOPs per clock cycle this CPU must have...
08:08:01 <Vorpal> if I understand the definition of BogoMIPS, this means the CPU can execute approx 1.138 NOPs per clock cycle?
08:08:03 <Vorpal> huh?
08:08:57 <Vorpal> the numbers on my laptop are much closer to a whole multiple (~2.000978)
08:09:21 -!- fizziew has joined.
08:09:26 <fizziew> (Home-SSH froze.)
08:09:27 <Vorpal> (which probably just means the CPU doesn't run at exactly 2.26 GHz like it claims to)
08:09:40 <Vorpal> pikhq_, any idea about that bogomips number?
08:09:59 <Vorpal> fizziew, <Vorpal> well, you can't run linux software that want proper permissions from it
08:10:02 <Vorpal> in case you missed that
08:10:05 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Quit: john_metcalf).
08:11:21 <fizziew> That was the last thing I saw. And yeah, but your regular user has music collection that is >> in size compared to software; especially since code doesn't take up all that much stuff. (Some games in the repository with large data files install those in MyDocs.)
08:11:34 <fizziew> s/stuff/space/
08:11:38 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Hmm.
08:11:54 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Beats me.
08:12:23 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Well. Maybe the branch takes a weird amount of time.
08:12:29 <Vorpal> guess so
08:12:39 <Vorpal> I wonder if it uses Thumb or ARM to measure it
08:12:44 <Vorpal> that could factor into it I guess?
08:13:02 <pikhq_> ARM chips don't exactly design for really fast branching, so.
08:13:07 <Vorpal> pikhq_, btw did you know that android hotplugs inactive CPU cores in order to save power?
08:13:18 <pikhq_> Huh. No, I didn't.
08:13:21 <pikhq_> Makes sense, though.
08:13:43 <Vorpal> also ARM /proc/cpuinfo is weird
08:13:59 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/UhML
08:14:05 <Vorpal> looks nothing like the x86 one
08:14:13 <Vorpal> no model name either
08:14:31 <Vorpal> that is from a 4-core CPU, I guess the other cores are unplugged atm though
08:14:53 <Vorpal> also a refreshingly short feature flag list
08:15:14 <Vorpal> on my core 2 duo it is absurdly long, even worse on my core i7 (sandy bridge)
08:15:19 <fizziew> http://sprunge.us/UTPP
08:15:33 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:15:59 <Vorpal> fizziew, you have an arm7 on that thingy? I thought it was older than that
08:16:09 <Vorpal> very low bogomips though
08:16:22 <Vorpal> what is the actual clock frequency on it?
08:16:35 <fizziew> It's clocked to about 250 MHz most of the time, IIRC. 600 MHz is what it runs when busy.
08:16:53 <Vorpal> fizziew, I thought bogomips was measured when it ran at full speed?
08:16:54 <fizziew> And the hardware is OMAP3, it's the same as e.g. the original Droid.
08:17:17 <fizziew> I've seen changing bogomips; don't know details.
08:17:34 <Vorpal> my phone seems to idle (with screen on) jumping between 200 and 500 MHz, staying at 200 most of the time
08:18:17 <fizziew> http://sprunge.us/jTWT with a while true; do true; done running in another terminal.
08:18:24 <Vorpal> huh
08:18:48 <Vorpal> fizziew, did you run the shell from the computer or on the phone itself?
08:18:53 <fizziew> On the phone.
08:19:03 <Vorpal> oh okay
08:19:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about two busy loops? Or do you have a single core only?
08:19:44 <fizziew> It's single-core, yes.
08:19:51 <fizziew> It's not *that* new.
08:20:17 <fizziew> BogoMIPS are calculated for those busy-loop delays, so it'd make sense it'd change as a function of the frequency to keep the delay times equal. (What gets printed in /proc/cpuinfo of course needn't.)
08:20:53 <Vorpal> pretty sure that it stays constant on x86 at least
08:21:03 <fizzie> It doesn't on my Athlon X2, unless I misremember.
08:21:24 <fizzie> (Oh, this one works again too. Phew; was worried for a moment there. Would've been a bit hard to go home to debug.)
08:22:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, I thought you were abroad? "* [fizziew] (~htkallas@pc112.ics.hut.fi): Heikki Kallasjoki"
08:22:17 <Vorpal> or do you have a bouncer at the university too?
08:22:31 <Vorpal> <fizzie> It doesn't on my Athlon X2, unless I misremember. <-- hm it does on my core 2 duo
08:22:43 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gJMf
08:22:47 <fizzie> Here's from this workstation.
08:23:07 <fizzie> (Which also happens to be an Athlon X2.)
08:23:20 <fizzie> (Again with a while true loop between the two.)
08:23:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/SQJg
08:24:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, you ran two such loops there?
08:24:07 <fizzie> Just goes on to show that BogoMIPS are maybe not the best benchmark. :p
08:24:23 <fizzie> Just one; the X2 frequency scaling is CPU-wide, not per-core.
08:24:26 <Vorpal> ah
08:24:59 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Just goes on to show that BogoMIPS are maybe not the best benchmark. :p <-- the only reason I looked at BogoMIPS was that it wasn't even close to a multiple of the clock speed on the phone
08:25:41 <Vorpal> also the actual clock speed was not listed in the ARM cpuinfo
08:27:09 <fizzie> Could be a slightly different busy loop on ARM. Modern processors are so weird anyway, you can't just sum up cycles/instruction like you mostly could on, say, a Z80.
08:27:26 <Vorpal> true
08:28:34 <fizzie> To answer an earlier question, no, I don't run a bouncer on pc112; I just had a backup irssi in a screen there.
08:29:27 <Vorpal> pikhq_, any idea what "rootfs" is under linux? My laptop has it too, (only in /proc/mounts, not /etc/mtab though)
08:29:31 <fizzie> I'd check the constantness of bogomips on the Atom this client is running on, but funnily enough it doesn't do frequency scaling.
08:29:48 <Vorpal> wait what, I thought atom was low power stuff
08:29:57 <fizzie> It is.
08:29:57 <Vorpal> surely those do frequency scaling?
08:30:03 <fizzie> No, it doesn't.
08:30:13 <Vorpal> is it due to the kernel or the hardware?
08:30:19 <fizzie> The hardware, as far as I know.
08:30:23 <Vorpal> anyway I guess it could be related to kernel versions
08:30:28 <Vorpal> which ones did you test on
08:30:45 <Vorpal> I tested on 3.0 for my phone and 2.6.39 for my laptop
08:30:51 <fizzie> http://ark.intel.com/products/35635
08:30:58 <fizzie> "Enhanced Intel SpeedStep® Technology No
08:31:07 <Vorpal> lol
08:31:22 <Vorpal> wait, it does hyperthreading?
08:31:29 <fizzie> Yes.
08:31:36 <Vorpal> so weird
08:31:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have a HT kernel on it, though.
08:31:43 <Vorpal> anyway what sort of computer is it in?
08:31:58 <fizzie> It's on a Jetway "mini-ITX" board.
08:32:09 <Vorpal> hm
08:32:33 <fizzie> Mostly chosen because they had a fancy add-on "daughterboard" that adds 3x Realtek gigabit ethernet ports to the one on the motherboard already.
08:32:35 <Vorpal> speaking of power management, I'm pretty sure my desktop runs cooler under linux than under windows
08:32:50 <Vorpal> (idle condition, screen on empty desktop in both cases)
08:32:51 <fizzie> So it's four ports in quite a small package, to summarize.
08:33:04 <Vorpal> 3 ethernet ports?
08:33:10 <Vorpal> do you use it as a router?
08:33:12 <fizzie> Yes.
08:33:22 <Vorpal> nice
08:34:05 <fizzie> It's also currently in an ATX chassis because the power supply in the tiny mini-ITX box sort of gave up, and I didn't see a reasonable replacement for it anywhere, it's kind of oddly shaped. It looks rather humorous with the tiny board inside the huge box.
08:34:19 <Vorpal> hah
08:34:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, so a full tower case or what?
08:34:49 <Vorpal> s/case/chassis/
08:35:07 <fizzie> Not quite, fortunately. It's some sort of a smaller edition, I suppose it's designed for a mini-ATX board. But still.
08:35:26 <Vorpal> all those form factors
08:35:54 <fizzie> The "HD" is also just a 8G CF card with an IDE adapter, packed into a plastic box that used to hold screws, then electric-taped tightly shut.
08:36:15 <Vorpal> heh
08:36:51 <fizzie> The IDE adapter didn't really have places for mounting screws. Though it *is* vaguely in the place where a regular 3.5" disk would go in the chassis.
08:37:33 <Vorpal> hm
08:38:00 <fizzie> s/8G/16G/ apparently.
08:38:31 <Vorpal> hm
08:38:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is what you run your irc client on?
08:38:48 <Vorpal> what about logs?
08:38:57 <Vorpal> an nfs mount to a more capable computer?
08:39:03 <Vorpal> a*
08:40:02 <fizzie> There's a cron job that one-way rsyncs the logs every now and then when the more capable computer (my regular desktop box) happens to be on. Technically I could be removing local copies of old logs, but haven't had to, yet.
08:40:24 <fizzie> Just 748M of them at the moment.
08:41:05 <fizzie> (They start from 2009-03 when I switched to the current bouncer. Things older than that are elsewhere.)
08:41:31 <fizzie> Actually, there's one more complication, but it might be outside the scope of this discussion. Or, well...
08:41:56 <fizzie> I'm a bit worried about the write cycles of the CF card, I have no idea if those do any very sophisticated wear balancing like real SSDs nowadays.
08:42:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I have 850 MB of xz compressed logs since when I started logging
08:43:06 <fizzie> So I've got the actual logging on a tmpfs that only holds current month's logs, and every three hours or so I batch-update new lines in those to the on-the-CF-card copies.
08:43:34 <Vorpal> fancy
08:43:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, why the tempfs?
08:43:52 <Vorpal> to save on the flash memory?
08:44:15 <fizzie> Right.
08:44:29 <fizzie> Might not really be necessary, but I was sort of worried.
08:44:52 <Vorpal> heh
08:44:53 <fizzie> (I've tried to put most of the often-changing files on tmpfs like that.)
08:44:55 <Vorpal> this month: 881 MB uncompressed logs
08:45:13 <Vorpal> that is a bit much
08:45:40 <fizzie> This month: 13M, uncompressed. My channels are obviously less noisy.
08:45:41 <Vorpal> oh wait, it is two months. Seems the cron script didn't run to rotate it this month since the computer was off due to a thunderstorm
08:45:53 <Vorpal> sometimes I hate cron
08:46:23 <fizzie> 57M for 2012-0[67].
08:48:28 * Vorpal runs find . -iname '*.log' -print0 | xargs -0 -n4 -P2 xz -z
08:48:55 <Vorpal> (I should set up automatic compressing after rotating)
08:49:00 <fizzie> Speaking of N900, there's been a bit of a buzz in that a Finnish startup called Jolla, made mostly of ex-Nokians, said publicly they're going to make a new Meego/Mer smartphone. So maybe it's not an entirely dead platform quite yet. (Of course so far they're just *saying* that.)
08:49:10 <Vorpal> hm
08:49:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, n900 didn't sell terribly well did it?
08:50:11 <olsner> I'd say that meego is entirely dead, but there might be people intending to revive it
08:50:29 <fizzie> No, and neither did the actual Meego phone (N9), but it's not entirely obvious it's because of bad technology instead of other matters.
08:50:34 <Vorpal> olsner, so we might get an undead phone? Awesome
08:50:57 <olsner> no, after reviving it will be alive
08:51:06 <Vorpal> boring
08:51:10 <olsner> indeed
08:51:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, N9 had terrible battery time as well?
08:51:43 <fizzie> I don't recall that, but it's certainly possible.
08:52:06 <Vorpal> my new phone actually has way better battery time than I expected. I watched youtube videos over wlan with it recently for maybe 5 hours, only drained down to 85% charge (from full charge before)
08:53:11 <fizzie> "The Nokia N9 has a BV-5JW 3.7V 1450mAh battery. According to Nokia, this provides from 7h to 11h of continuous talk time, from 16 to 19.5 days of standby, 4.5h of video playback and up to 50h of music playback." Well, going purely on the specs, it's not good, but maybe not quite "terrible" either. Anyway, new phone would presumably mean new hardware, too.
08:54:06 <Vorpal> seems my phone has a 2100 mAh battery
08:54:22 <fizzie> N9's primary problem (I think) was that they didn't really *sell* it anywhere. I mean, it wasn't released in the US (not such a big surprise), but not in "UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and others" either.
08:54:38 <Vorpal> ouch
08:54:57 <olsner> my phone only has a 1250mAh battery
08:55:40 <fizzie> 1320 mAh BL-5J on the N900.
08:55:56 <Vorpal> hm how does this translate to mWh, which is what ACPI on my laptop reports:
08:56:00 <Vorpal> design capacity: 51830 mWh
08:56:00 <Vorpal> last full capacity: 48720 mWh
08:56:18 <olsner> you multiply by the volts, I think
08:56:34 <Vorpal> the mWh or the mAh?
08:56:43 <Vorpal> design voltage: 10800 mV
08:56:45 <olsner> A*V = W
08:56:59 <Vorpal> olsner, shouldn't I divide by the voltage then?
08:57:13 <olsner> depends on which number you do it on
08:57:16 <Vorpal> or does the h bit change that
08:57:33 <Vorpal> olsner, well I don't know the voltage on my phone, so lets translate the laptop to mAh
08:57:47 <olsner> I think Wh is a better comparison though
08:57:54 <Vorpal> hm okay
08:58:20 <soundnfury> 50Wh, 11V, that's about 5Ah
08:58:21 <Vorpal> hm I guess ARM doesn't use ACPI
08:58:32 <Vorpal> soundnfury, thanks
08:59:07 * soundnfury doesn't like the use of Ah and Wh
08:59:16 <soundnfury> they're just big numbers of C and J
08:59:20 <Vorpal> urgh the phone adb shell seems to believe my terminal is 80 columns wide
08:59:31 <Vorpal> the issue is the path is like 70 chars wide
08:59:46 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I agree
08:59:47 <soundnfury> Vorpal: try setting $COLUMNS?
09:00:02 <soundnfury> and/or sending the shell process a SIGWINCH?
09:00:15 * soundnfury doesn't know the context, nor what adb is, but whatever
09:00:17 <Vorpal> ah yes
09:00:26 <Vorpal> soundnfury, adb = android debug bridge
09:00:40 <Vorpal> soundnfury, it is used when developing for android. In this case I ran adb shell
09:00:50 <Vorpal> so I ran a shell on my phone over the usb cable to it
09:01:38 <fizzie> People who bother meddling around with N900 development generally just do USB networking and SSH in over that.
09:01:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, USB networking?
09:02:16 <Vorpal> you can do networking over usb?
09:02:19 <Vorpal> is that a standard?
09:02:22 <fizzie> Yes.
09:02:26 <Vorpal> I knew you could do ethernet over firewire
09:02:29 <Vorpal> but usb?
09:03:08 <fizzie> Yes.
09:03:12 <Vorpal> I guess the batt_vol_* files are relevant for the phone. However all but one just returns N/A. the one that doesn't just blocks
09:03:18 <Vorpal> (in /sys/devices/platform/samsung-battery/power_supply/battery)
09:03:30 <soundnfury> um, given that you can do networking over RS232, I think it'd be pretty remiss of USB not to support the same thing
09:03:40 <fizzie> You'll need a special sort of a cable to do USB networking for two "hosts", though.
09:03:55 <fizzie> But the phone is normally... the opposite of a host, I forget which term the USB folks use.
09:04:01 <Lumpio-> USB over ethernet is standardized
09:04:03 <soundnfury> fizzie: I hope you're not suggesting the use of a double-A-jack cable?
09:04:04 <Lumpio-> ...er
09:04:08 <Lumpio-> Ethernet over USB
09:04:27 <Lumpio-> I found ago a couple of years ago when I plugged my phone into my laptop and found a network interface called "usb0"
09:04:28 <soundnfury> USB /always/ has a master and a slave
09:04:30 <soundnfury> them's the rules
09:04:31 <Vorpal> speaking of special sorts of cables, I should get an USB on the go cable
09:04:38 <Lumpio-> Yeah. Great. Good work brain
09:04:39 <Lumpio-> found out*
09:04:52 <Vorpal> from what I read, for an android phone my phone has exceptionally good USB support
09:05:12 <fizzie> soundnfury: No, they make cables with electronics on it to make that sort of stuff properly work.
09:05:12 <Vorpal> someone hooked up an xbox controller to the same model and got it working for example
09:05:23 <Vorpal> or was it PS3?
09:05:25 <Vorpal> anyway
09:05:30 <Lumpio-> It's not a cable anymore in that case.
09:05:37 <Lumpio-> It's a device that appears as a slave to two hosts at the same time.
09:05:40 <fizzie> Well, that's arguable.
09:05:50 <Lumpio-> Well it might look like a cable
09:05:56 <Lumpio-> Chips can fit inside the plugs these days
09:06:00 <fizzie> If it quacks like a duck...
09:06:11 <Lumpio-> But from a USB viewpoint it's a device.
09:06:16 <Vorpal> heh
09:06:19 <Lumpio-> Well it quacks like a duck when your system sees it
09:06:24 <Vorpal> why would anyone want to do that though?
09:06:26 <Lumpio-> As a slave device, from both ends
09:06:47 <soundnfury> so really it's a "router" that's a USB slave to two hosts
09:06:54 <soundnfury> that feels dirty somehow
09:06:56 <Vorpal> <Lumpio-> I found ago a couple of years ago when I plugged my phone into my laptop and found a network interface called "usb0" <-- what sort of phone was that?
09:07:03 <Lumpio-> Vorpal: Nokia N900
09:07:07 <Vorpal> ah
09:07:09 <soundnfury> as though the router should be the host and the PCs the slave
09:07:16 <Vorpal> is that just network sharing over usb?
09:07:24 <Lumpio-> Well it can be used for that
09:07:32 <Lumpio-> But it's a proper network interface
09:07:37 <Lumpio-> ifconfig away and do whatever you want with it.
09:08:00 <Lumpio-> For 3G sharing it offers PPP over USB serial though
09:08:12 <Lumpio-> Because the stripped down kernel on it doesn't even have iptables
09:08:14 <fizzie> Ethernet stuffs are in the "CDC" communications device class USB standard bits. So yes, it's just a standard way to pass Ethernet frames over USB.
09:08:24 <Vorpal> well I get an usb0 when I enable tethering with usb on my phone
09:08:25 <Vorpal> oh well
09:08:50 <Vorpal> since I rooted my phone I decided to take a look at iptables
09:08:52 <Lumpio-> It's one way to do connection sharing if your phone can do it, I could never be bothered to replace the kernel on mine with one with iptables
09:09:00 <fizzie> I suppose some phones might use that by default for network sharing.
09:09:01 <Vorpal> it turns out that probably all ICS devices have iptables
09:09:12 <Lumpio-> ...at once point I was writing some kind of custom pipe thing to get interwebs over there without iptables
09:09:15 <Lumpio-> but
09:09:15 <Vorpal> because it does the "network usage per app" thing that is new in ICS by iptables rules
09:09:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Do you get a /dev/ttyUSBx device too, or just the usb0 interface?
09:09:36 <Lumpio-> I eventually found out you could just use PPP. Somehow I was under the misconception that PPP would take over the phone's 3G modem entirely and the phone itself wouldn't be able to use it
09:09:41 <Lumpio-> (That's what it did with GPRS on my old phone)
09:09:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, sec, will turn the thing on again
09:10:01 <Lumpio-> But apparently the modem supports multiple users at the same time, or the phone emulates PPP and talks to the modem by itself
09:10:13 <fizzie> Lumpio-: I think the latter.
09:10:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, no /dev/ttyUSB*
09:10:23 <Lumpio-> Me too
09:10:36 <fizzie> You could check whether you get pppd processes around when you share interwebs like that.
09:10:45 <Lumpio-> Or well PPP and AT commands and all that
09:10:54 <Lumpio-> But I don't really need to share interwebs with it anymore.
09:10:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, on the phone?
09:11:01 <Lumpio-> I got a laptop with built-in 3G
09:11:26 <Vorpal> nice
09:11:39 <Vorpal> can the N900 do sharing by acting as a wifi AP too?
09:11:48 <fizzie> Yes, IIRC.
09:11:52 <fizzie> Never tried it, though.
09:11:58 <fizzie> And probably not out-of-the-box.
09:12:10 <Vorpal> that seems to work better than sharing by bluetooth on this phone. I used to use sharing by bluetooth on my old dumb-phone nokia.
09:12:32 <fizzie> Well, at least for an ad-hoc network.
09:12:40 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure the driver/hardware can do a regular AP.
09:12:58 <Vorpal> ah
09:13:29 <fizzie> Haven't investigated, really.
09:13:34 <Vorpal> hm there is an option for wifi direct in this menu too, whatever that is
09:14:16 <Vorpal> also a DLNA option, again no clue what it is. says "share your media files with nearby devices via DLNA" though
09:14:36 <Vorpal> there are also some options for NFC in that menu
09:15:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway does the n900 have a front facing camera?
09:15:03 <Lumpio-> I think it can be put in AP mode
09:15:09 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but it's horrible.
09:15:11 <Lumpio-> But as there's no iptables, you need extra software to do routing...
09:15:12 <Vorpal> oh
09:15:16 <fizzie> Quality-wise, that is.
09:15:20 <Lumpio-> I've only used it in ad-hoc mode myself
09:15:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, samsung actually came up with a cool idea for it. To detect if you are looking at the phone, and if so delay the screen timeout
09:15:44 <Vorpal> it actually works surprisingly well
09:16:00 <Lumpio-> The front camera is actually pretty good on the N900
09:16:05 <Lumpio-> ...as an entropy source for RNGs
09:16:18 <fizzie> I don't suppose anyone expects good quality out of those, and it only does 640x480 anyway, but even given that the N900 camera is quite bad. (Also AFAIK depends a bit on the hardware revision, or so I've read.)
09:16:22 <Vorpal> doesn't work in a totally dark room, or if you look at the phone at too much of an angle
09:16:28 <Vorpal> but other than that, it works pretty well
09:16:37 <Lumpio-> Hardware revision?
09:16:45 <Lumpio-> I think some software said the picture quality depends on *software* revision lol
09:16:49 <Lumpio-> How the hell would that even happen
09:16:58 <Vorpal> different firmware?
09:17:08 <Vorpal> I think my front facing camera does more than that
09:17:12 <Vorpal> let me find the resolution for it
09:17:42 <Vorpal> "1.9 MP, 720p@30fps", not sure about the resolution
09:18:25 <Vorpal> 1280x960 seems to be standard for front facing camera, and 1392x1392 is max
09:18:34 <Vorpal> curious with a square camera
09:18:53 <Vorpal> the back camera does 3264x2448
09:19:01 <fizzie> 1280x720 is the "standard" 720p square-pixel size.
09:19:13 <fizzie> So I guess they wanted the resolution to be > than that.
09:19:13 <Vorpal> ah
09:19:18 <Vorpal> right
09:19:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess maybe for the anti-shake feature
09:19:30 <Vorpal> they want a bit of leeway
09:19:51 <Vorpal> since I doubt it has a physical anti-shake (like my Minolta Dimage A2 does)
09:20:17 <Vorpal> (you can hear the anti-shake motor when you take an exposure with that option turned on)
09:20:31 <fizzie> Daily trivia: you can make the N-gage get its internet connection via a computer (not terribly useful in general, but maybe in a specific situation) if you do a really terrible kludge. I've forgotten the details, but it involved DNS trickery to add a custom nonstandard TLD that it checks for.
09:20:56 <Vorpal> heh
09:20:59 <fizzie> It's related to what PC Suite does normally to speak with the phone.
09:22:37 <Vorpal> I believe 720x1280 is the phone screen resolution on my phone btw
09:22:48 <Vorpal> though it is pentile
09:23:26 <Vorpal> the dpi is high enough that you can't really notice that the screen is pentile though
09:24:14 <Vorpal> also sub-pixel hinting for pentile must be a nightmare to program, since it would depend on the exact location on the screen to a much larger degree than on a normal RGB TFT
09:25:11 <fizzie> I think the N9 screen had one of those RGBG things too.
09:25:33 <Vorpal> what is the DPI on that thing?
09:26:03 <fizzie> I think I mentioned this before, but it's funny how camera resolutions always count individual subpixels, while display resolutions (this far, anyway) have tended to report the number of actual RGB pixels.
09:26:36 <fizzie> It's something smaller, since it had a 854x480 screen.
09:27:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, it isn't exactly RGBG though, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nexus_one_screen_microscope.jpg (not the same phone, and I believe the exact arrangement is different on my phone)
09:28:17 <fizzie> That's just a matter of how you look at it. I mean, it's not the usual Bayer pattern "RGBG", but it does have twice as much green than R or B.
09:28:37 <Vorpal> well yes
09:36:01 <fizzie> Another thing I think I wondered out loud before: I wonder if there are digital cameras where, if you shoot non-raw and select a black-and-white mode, it makes the resulting image by doing something more black-and-white oriented on the subpixels, as opposed to just applying the same interpolation it would use for a color image and then weighted-summing the R, G and B channels.
09:36:25 <fizzie> It's not exactly something that would get mentioned on the manual, perhaps.
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10:01:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is an issue with doing that, in that not all those subpixels are sensitive to all the light
10:01:30 <Vorpal> due to colour filters or whatever
10:01:45 <Vorpal> there are however black-and-white digital cameras
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10:36:12 <fizzie> Sure, it'd still need some sort of interpolation. And it's possible the best kind would still do the R, G and B channel separately. I was just wondering.
10:36:44 <fizzie> dcraw has a no-interpolation mode for if you're actually photographing something black-and-white.
10:43:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
11:18:21 <mroman> oops.
11:18:28 <mroman> my toNAND is a little bit bloaty :D
11:18:41 <Vorpal> mroman, toNAND? What does that do?
11:18:44 <mroman> toNAND on p => q
11:18:45 <mroman> gives
11:18:56 <mroman> !(!(!(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q)) && !(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q))) && !(!(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q)) && !(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q))))
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11:19:06 <Vorpal> oh, so not flashing to NAND-style flash?
11:19:10 <Vorpal> right
11:19:20 <Vorpal> also yeah that seems sub-optimal
11:19:21 <mroman> it transforms a term into just NAND-Terms.
11:19:40 <Vorpal> mroman, how does it do that?
11:20:12 <mroman> http://codepad.org/BfTFj88J <- that way.
11:20:27 <Vorpal> I remember doing that sort of thing by hand in some electronics course at university. Forgot what the diagrams were called. Used Gray coding for the numbering of the states along the sides I remember
11:21:05 <Vorpal> dammit, any idea what those are called?
11:21:20 <mroman> shanon?
11:21:27 <Vorpal> hm no
11:21:29 <Vorpal> something else
11:21:35 <mroman> de morgan?
11:21:46 <mroman> shanon is a generalization of de morgan.
11:21:48 <Vorpal> no... that is a law
11:21:52 <Vorpal> Karnaugh
11:21:53 <Vorpal> that's it
11:21:55 <mroman> ah
11:21:58 <mroman> Karnaugh diagrams.
11:22:01 <Vorpal> yep
11:22:02 <Vorpal> those
11:22:05 <mroman> yes... they can be used for simplifications.
11:22:25 <Vorpal> mroman, and to convert to specific forms (depending on if you circle the zeros or the ones)
11:22:37 <mroman> but something is wrong else.
11:22:40 <Vorpal> forgot which circling yielded what type of expression
11:22:40 <mroman> p || q gives me
11:22:49 <mroman> !(!(!(!(p && p) && !(q && q)) && !(!(p && p) && !(q && q))) && !(!(!(p && p) && !(q && q)) && !(!(p && p) && !(q && q))))
11:22:54 <mroman> which is too bloat for just an or.
11:23:14 <mroman> im guessing some toNAND $ are uneccessary
11:23:15 <Vorpal> mroman, btw I used Karnaugh diagrams at a later point once. When I was building an 7-segment display in minecraft, to figure out the mapping from BCD
11:23:16 <Vorpal> XD
11:23:29 <Vorpal> that is the only time I ever used Karnaugh diagrams outside that course
11:23:38 <mroman> toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot ((toNAND p) :| (toNAND q))))
11:23:43 <mroman> ^- that first toNAND is bloat.
11:23:55 <Vorpal> mroman, what is ENot?
11:23:58 <Vorpal> :t ENot
11:23:59 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `ENot'
11:28:27 <mroman> *Main> toHuman . toNAND $ EAny 'p' :=> EAny 'q'
11:28:28 <mroman> "!(!!(p && p) && !q)"
11:28:31 <mroman> perfect.
11:28:49 <mroman> *Main> shortest' . reduce $ toNAND $ EAny 'p' :=> EAny 'q'
11:28:50 <mroman> (8,"(p => q)",EAny 'p' :=> EAny 'q')
11:29:00 <mroman> Vorpal: It's not a predefined haskell thing.
11:29:03 <mroman> @ENot
11:29:03 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
11:29:30 <mroman> ok not perfect.
11:29:33 <mroman> !q is not legal.
11:31:53 <mroman> !q would use a NOT-Gate instead of just NAND-Gates.
11:33:38 <mroman> p => q -> !(!(!(p && p) && !(p && p)) && !(q && q))
11:34:31 <mroman> Vorpal: https://github.com/FMNSSun/hs-experiments/blob/master/rewrite.hs#L419
11:41:56 <mroman> http://codepad.org/X5HSlpTR <- I use it for fun ;)
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12:29:47 <mroman> a => (b => a) is to my surprise a tautology.
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12:55:31 <fizzie> Well, if a, then obviously a no matter whether b.
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15:04:47 <Sgeo> "Notice also that this fallacy does not apply to situations where there are only two rival claims and one has already been falsified, then we may justly establish the truth of the other even if we cannot find evidence for or against it."
15:04:50 <Sgeo> http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/fallacy/fallacy-list.php
15:05:22 <Sgeo> Err....... I mean, I guess that's strictly speaking true, if there is in fact some situation in which there are literally only two options
15:05:45 <Sgeo> But there are fallacies where people wrongly think there are only two options
15:05:47 <Sgeo> :/
15:12:09 <shachaf> Sgeo: "either X or Y" is "evidence for X"
15:40:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, that follows from the law of excluded middle in a logic which include that law
15:40:53 <Vorpal> unless I completely misunderstood what you meant
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16:27:14 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Ünicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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18:01:06 <Taneb> Hello!
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18:19:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, hi
18:19:30 <Taneb> Is it right to say that, in Haskell, if you have f :: (), there are two possibilities for it, f = () and f = f?
18:19:50 <Vorpal> bbiab
18:19:57 <Taneb> define:bbiab
18:20:01 <Sgeo> be back in a bit
18:20:09 <Taneb> Thanks, Sgeo
18:20:13 <Sgeo> And I think f = _|_ is a clearer way of putting it
18:20:15 <Sgeo> You're welcome
18:20:23 <Taneb> That works too
18:20:45 <Taneb> I'd say there's two possibilities, but only one possible value. Is that right?
18:21:00 <Sgeo> Don't ask me about terminology
18:21:03 <zzo38> f = () is the only fully defined possibility, but f = f and f = undefined and f = error "42" are other possibilities
18:21:20 <zzo38> So I would also say there is only one possible value.
18:21:49 <Taneb> I'm trying to teach myself, for fun, without the use of any tutorial, how to write a compiler
18:21:59 <Taneb> With 0x10c's DCPU as the target platform.
18:22:05 <Taneb> I've picked a bad language to compile
18:22:36 <fizzie> You didn't mention the language. Or was it Haskell?
18:22:51 <Taneb> Yes, it's Haskell
18:23:16 <Taneb> I think I'm trying to do way too much in compile-time
18:23:23 <Taneb> brb, thirsty
18:23:41 <Sgeo> ...........I wonder if the thing that ais523 and I proved is provable with Coq
18:23:51 <olsner> Taneb: Trying to do too much in compile-time? No, you are not.
18:24:24 <olsner> *Trying to do too much in compile-time you are not.
18:24:44 <Taneb> Hmm
18:24:51 <zzo38> I think it is against the rules of Haskell for the compiler to assume f :: () implies f = () but it is OK for Ibtlfmm compiler (but not an interpreter) to assume that.
18:25:44 <Vorpal> <Taneb> Yes, it's Haskell <-- trying to compile haskell? you crazy?
18:25:49 <Taneb> Maybe if I created my own language (I've done it before, heh, otherwise I'd be ashamed to be on this channel), then create a Haskell to that language compiler, that would be easier
18:26:15 <fizzie> Maybe you could compile something simpler, that's what most people do, I'd say.
18:27:36 <Taneb> Perhaps MIBBLLII?
18:27:53 <Taneb> Am I mad?
18:28:15 <fizzie> You're dead-set to compile something lazy and as different from the resulting machine code that is physically possible?
18:28:35 <Taneb> MIBBLLII isn't necessarily lazy
18:28:41 <Taneb> But yes
18:28:53 <zzo38> Compile LLVM
18:29:06 <Taneb> I figure I mayswell dive in at the deep end and try not to drown
18:30:07 <fizzie> As opposed to walking from the shallow end towards the deep end and testing the whole drowning thing a little more safely. Well, sure.
18:30:31 <Taneb> Seeing as this, for now, is but a hobby.
18:31:05 <Taneb> For gods' sake, I'm writing a compiler for a platform that is from an unreleased video game!
18:31:29 <nortti> the one from minecraft's creator?
18:31:50 <Taneb> Yeah, that's the one
18:32:26 <Taneb> Wow, when I type "p" in chrome, the top result is the spec for the DCPU
18:32:38 <Taneb> Second is "prime factors of 421"
18:32:44 <Taneb> iirc, it's prime in of itself
18:32:55 <fizzie> Maybe it's personalized for you.
18:33:14 <fizzie> "P-magazine | Elke dinsdag het vuur aan de lont!" is my current top result.
18:33:20 <Taneb> I'd hate it to be personalised for someone else
18:34:15 <fizzie> "Uitgeverij P poëzie kunst geschiedenis creatief leuven" is #2.
18:34:42 <fizzie> I don't know what any of that means.
18:35:03 <Sgeo> Taneb, UPDATE
18:35:26 <olsner> something about a publisher of poetry, art, something and creative living
18:35:26 <Taneb> WHAT HAPPENED TO HIATUS
18:35:36 <olsner> (guessing)
18:35:55 <olsner> but I mean, dutch - how hard can it be?
18:38:18 <Sgeo> Taneb, was going to be an update on 11th or before
18:38:28 <Sgeo> Hiatus presumably back on, waiting for EoA6A3
18:38:42 <fizzie> I don't think 'leuven' is about living. Google Translate translates it as "slots", but in this case it's probably just the name of this city maybe.
18:38:44 <Taneb> brb again
18:38:56 <fizzie> Dutch so far has been rather easy to decode, that's true.
18:39:26 <Gregor> Dutch is just English with a funny accent.
18:39:43 <fizzie> There's quite a bit of German in there. Or is that just more English with a different accent?
18:40:07 <olsner> I think it's an english/german/scandinavian hybrid
18:40:28 <olsner> or maybe it's equally similar to every language in the world
18:40:53 <olsner> for some reason I think geschiedenis means separate
18:41:01 <fizzie> Pickpocket is "zakkenroller", a warning about them loops in some of the trains.
18:43:19 <Vorpal> heh
18:43:27 <Vorpal> nice word
18:43:49 <Vorpal> <olsner> for some reason I think geschiedenis means separate <-- does it though?
18:44:08 <itidus21> A kobold has zakkenrolled a potion from you.
18:44:10 <olsner> Vorpal: one guess and suddenly I'm the authority on dutch?
18:44:27 <Vorpal> olsner, sure
18:44:46 <Sgeo> Taneb, I didn't even notice the additional pages
18:44:47 <olsner> ok then, it does mean that and I know because I'm the dutchmaster
18:45:53 <Vorpal> I knew it
18:46:06 <Taneb> Back
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18:48:46 <Vorpal> hm heat exchangers installed for heating the house during winter are suboptimal when used to cool. The first floor is now frigid and the upper floor is still as hot as before. Oh well
18:51:13 <Vorpal> also, why am I not super-tired, I only managed to sleep like 2.5 hours during the night (I hate loud seagulls), and I was up all day yesterday, and today.
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18:52:42 <Taneb> Sgeo... that update...
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18:53:29 <Sgeo> First I don't notice the ==>
18:53:36 <Sgeo> Then, page 7150 breaks my browser
18:53:49 <Vorpal> Sgeo, update to what?
18:53:56 <Sgeo> Vorpal, Homestuck
18:54:01 <Vorpal> ah
18:57:14 <Taneb> 7150, if I had an iPhone, I'd want that as my wallpaper
19:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> 7138 is taking so long to load
19:02:34 <Taneb> I must have got in before everybody else noticed
19:02:37 <Taneb> Thanks, Sgeo
19:02:41 <nortti> what are you talking about?
19:02:53 <Taneb> Homestuck
19:03:16 <Taneb> One of the most esoteric web media projects out there (it's not a webcomic anymore.)
19:04:08 <Phantom_Hoover> OK that entrance sequence still wasn't as good as the 2nd through 4th but it was close.
19:05:12 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is it then?
19:05:21 <Vorpal> Taneb, I haven't been keeping up with it
19:05:22 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a web media project, duh.
19:05:23 <Taneb> A web multimedia project
19:05:39 <Vorpal> well, it used to have the occasional flash every now and then before too?
19:05:55 <Taneb> It encompasses webcomics, music, short video games, pseudo-interactive fiction, and others
19:06:24 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god red dwarf references!!!
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19:08:19 <Vorpal> wow, what the hell is up with mediafire today, this 91 MB download has been running for 3 hours, with another hour estimated to go
19:08:20 <olsner> red dwarf references!? where !?
19:08:32 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is red dwarf?
19:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, fuck off
19:08:43 <olsner> Vorpal: what are you downloading from mediafire?
19:08:43 <Vorpal> what?
19:08:43 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, homestuck
19:09:12 <Vorpal> olsner, a zip file
19:09:35 <Taneb> Vorpal, Red Dwarf was a sci-fi TV series.
19:09:38 <Taneb> Also a kind of star
19:09:42 <olsner> Vorpal: is it amateur porn you got linked from 4chan or something?
19:09:46 <Vorpal> Taneb, I know the latter meaning
19:09:52 <Vorpal> olsner, no it is a boring android related thingy
19:10:03 <olsner> Vorpal: boring
19:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> amateur android porn?
19:10:30 <Vorpal> sounds awesome
19:11:43 <Phantom_Hoover> (the androids are not paid to be androids, ofc)
19:12:10 <Phantom_Hoover> also ok this is now my joint third favourite entrance sequence
19:14:11 <Taneb> Tell me when it reaches first
19:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry
19:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> it cannot beat rose's or jade's
19:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> especially not rose's because it represents my single favourite point in homestuck
19:16:41 <Taneb> By which I mean it's my favourite
19:16:54 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry you are wrong
19:16:55 <Taneb> I'm not here to enforce my opinions.
19:17:09 <Taneb> I also almost wrote "here" twice in that sentence
19:17:11 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously, they're so wrong
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19:36:06 <zzo38> Whatever document I have written in TeX, you should be able to compile them on any computer having TeX even in future and even in past, since it is the same TeX everywhere.
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19:37:25 <oerjan> TeX: the original programming language. that xkcd about the universe being written in perl and lisp was just propaganda.
19:38:12 <zzo38> But it might not necessarily work if you use one of the programs other than "tex" (such as "pdftex", "latex", etc).
19:42:15 <zzo38> Now the X and Y types I have written about yesterday, I have called Decompose and Recompose.
19:43:39 <zzo38> I have made those and other things available in "for-free" package.
19:47:32 <soundnfury> oerjan: ah, but TeX was written in WEB, and Don Knuth himself is actually written in XSLT (yeah, I was shocked too)
19:48:08 <oerjan> makes sense.
19:49:02 <Taneb> What's XSLT written in? (dun dun DUN)
19:49:10 <soundnfury> Unicorns.
19:49:33 <oerjan> 11:23:38: <mroman> toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot ((toNAND p) :| (toNAND q))))
19:49:36 <oerjan> 11:23:43: <mroman> ^- that first toNAND is bloat.
19:50:13 <oerjan> try with toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot p :& Enot q))
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19:50:48 <Taneb> :t fix
19:50:49 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> a) -> a
19:51:02 <oerjan> mroman: ^
19:51:13 <Taneb> What?
19:51:19 <Taneb> I was just thinking aloud
19:51:30 <oerjan> ...i wasn't talking to you
19:51:50 <Taneb> I misparsed your caret
19:51:57 <Taneb> :t fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else r (a - 1))
19:51:58 <lambdabot> forall a t. (Num a, Num t) => a -> t
19:52:09 <Taneb> > fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else r (a - 1)) 10
19:52:11 <lambdabot> 1
19:52:19 <Taneb> > fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else a * r (a - 1)) 10
19:52:20 <lambdabot> 3628800
19:52:45 <Taneb> @pl fix (\r a -> if a == 0 then 1 else a * r (a - 1))
19:52:45 <lambdabot> fix (ap (flip if' 1 . (0 ==)) . ap (*) . (. subtract 1))
19:52:53 <Taneb> Stupid ugly code
19:53:06 <Taneb> But pointless recursive factorial!
19:53:15 <olsner> some combination of fix and zip`ap`tail should work
19:53:26 <Taneb> :t zip `ap` tail
19:53:27 <lambdabot> forall b. [b] -> [(b, b)]
19:53:40 <soundnfury> Taneb: Now write a recursive factorial in Eniuq
19:53:46 <olsner> :t zipWith (*) `ap` tail
19:53:46 <Taneb> > zip `ap` tail $ [1,2,3]
19:53:48 <lambdabot> [(1,2),(2,3)]
19:53:48 <lambdabot> forall a. (Num a) => [a] -> [a]
19:54:04 <Taneb> soundnfury, I know not what Eniuq is
19:54:10 <soundnfury> (Disclaimer: May not be possible. Management accepts no liability for loss of sanity. Brains parked at owners' risk.)
19:54:15 <Taneb> ...it's quine backwards, that's what it is
19:54:16 <soundnfury> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eniuq
19:54:35 <soundnfury> It's my latest esolang, is what it is
19:54:49 <soundnfury> unfortunately I'm not crazy enough to be able to write programs in it
19:55:02 <Taneb> I'm crazy
19:55:05 <Taneb> I'll give it a go
19:55:18 <soundnfury> it took me three hours to write unary.en
19:55:31 <soundnfury> which looks like this: ?1-"I~1-~84*3+f!1+4*5d3**+84*3+Dk84*3+"48*2+D48*2+O`Oo
19:56:32 <olsner> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{-odd-}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(+)<$>(+)1)$1
19:56:33 <lambdabot> [1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,5...
19:57:11 <soundnfury> Gesundheit!
19:57:54 <zzo38> Do you like the format of the ITMCK manual so far?
19:58:27 <olsner> (that right there is probably the most useful haskell program I've ever written)
19:59:15 <Taneb> olsner, have you seen my interactive factorial program?
19:59:26 <Taneb> It's the most controversial Haskell program on Uncyclopedia
19:59:32 <oerjan> <Taneb> I'd say there's two possibilities, but only one possible value. Is that right? <-- that is not the standard haskell view, although i recall someone starting a flame war defending your interpretation
20:00:08 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, I agree, there is two possibilities but only one possible value.
20:00:26 <Taneb> Two possibilities in a practical sense, one value in a theoretical sense
20:00:27 <zzo38> Actually there are more than two possibilities.
20:00:55 <Taneb> Ignoring any output to stderr
20:00:59 <olsner> Taneb: I think I have not, where is it?
20:01:06 <oerjan> Taneb: no, there are >= 2 values in the theoretical sense. haskell uses denotational semantics.
20:01:14 <Taneb> olsner, uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Haskell
20:01:21 <zzo38> Since you might have error "42" or error "I AM ERROR" or unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "Hello, World!") or a bunch of other possible stuff.
20:02:00 <olsner> " the Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphism section is outdated and wrong. The real code is ..." :D
20:02:02 <zzo38> But the only proper value would be f = ()
20:02:33 <olsner> Taneb: oh, the one with all the <*> and unsafeCoerces?
20:02:37 <Taneb> Yeah
20:02:45 <Taneb> It works, but takes ages for bigger numbers
20:02:50 * oerjan shouldn't be shocked about zzo38 not accepting the standard view of haskell.
20:02:52 <zzo38> It seem to me that it is like the SK combinators
20:02:55 <Taneb> Where bigger means more than about 8 or 9
20:03:05 <Taneb> zzo38, that is EXACTLY how it works
20:03:43 <Taneb> I initially wrote it in SKI, then translated and fixed compily errors
20:04:43 <Taneb> Hey, Christopher Eccleston is on
20:04:48 <zzo38> Yes that is what it looks like to me.
20:05:37 <Taneb> Three pures, one (<*>), and the only print each have an explicit type signature
20:06:46 <Taneb> This is because the unsafeCoerces confues GHC, and presumably every other Haskell compiler
20:07:18 <Taneb> I think a couple of unsafeCoerces can be replaced by id
20:07:36 <olsner> you probably have a few unnecessary parens there, have you tried minimizing them?
20:08:03 <Taneb> That was an earlier version, I'm not sure where the final one has got to
20:08:27 <Taneb> And yes, I did
20:10:50 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:16:15 <soundnfury> zzo38: ITMCK?
20:17:59 -!- augur_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:18:07 <mroman> oerjan: That wont work.
20:18:15 <mroman> p might be an expression containing another or ;)
20:18:20 <mroman> but I already fixed it.
20:18:26 <zzo38> soundnfury: http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/itmck are two webpages with information.
20:18:32 <mroman> I also added support for xor
20:18:38 <mroman> and noImplication, noEqu, noXor
20:18:45 <zzo38> But I can send the files directly too if you want specific files.
20:18:50 <mroman> so that (((a == b) ^^ c) => d) (^^ is xor)
20:18:52 <mroman> translates to
20:19:00 <mroman> (!((!!((!a && b) || (a && !b)) && c) || (!((!a && b) || (a && !b)) && !c)) || d)
20:19:04 <Taneb> Isn't noEqu Xor?
20:19:14 <mroman> noEqu uses xor, yes.
20:19:16 <mroman> well
20:19:20 <mroman> xnor to be specific.
20:19:38 <zzo38> In Haskell you can use /= for boolean XOR.
20:19:57 <mroman> but it directly translates to what noXor would.
20:20:01 <Taneb> XOR is 0110; XNOR is 1001. XNOR is what I'd call Equ using your convention
20:20:03 <mroman> *Main> toHuman . noEqu $ EAny 'a' := EAny 'b'
20:20:04 <mroman> "!((!a && b) || (a && !b))"
20:20:23 <soundnfury> Gah! how come gedit doesn't have a syntax highlighting option for TeX (only LaTeX) yet it has highlighters for shit like "Literate Haskell"?
20:20:33 <mroman> Still the biggest issue is toNAND :(
20:20:34 <ion> Finished Deus Ex.
20:20:42 <mroman> *Main> toHuman . toNAND . noEqu $ EAny 'a' := EAny 'b'
20:20:43 <mroman> "(!(!(!(!(a && a) && b) && !(!(a && a) && b)) && !(!(!(a && a) && b) && !(!(a && a) && b))) && !(!(!(a && !(b && b)) && !(a && !(b && b))) && !(!(a && !(b && b)) && !(a && !(b && b)))))"
20:20:50 <mroman> It just looks way too bloat :D
20:21:01 <Taneb> ion, I read that is Finnish Deus Ex, as the reason to soundnfury's moan
20:21:08 <zzo38> soundnfury: I don't know. But it is possible for the syntax in a TeX file to change part way through due to category codes, so it may not work extremely well
20:22:00 <mroman> *Main> shortest' . reduce . toNAND . noEqu $ EAny 'a' := EAny 'b'
20:22:01 <mroman> (8,"(a == b)",EAny 'a' := EAny 'b')
20:22:14 <mroman> ^- but it's cleary a valid and equivalent only-nand logic expression :)
20:22:32 <zzo38> For things such as literate Haskell, you just need to find the line with > at front and highlight everything else on that line as a Haskell code, and then highlight the rest using a different syntax highlighter (which could be the plain text highligher).
20:22:52 <zzo38> However literate Haskell codes can also have \begin{code} \end{code} so you would highlight those too.
20:23:00 <soundnfury> yeah but my question is, what kind of pervert uses Literate Haskell?
20:23:09 <Taneb> zzo38, it's plaintext dyed blue, iirc. Haddock docs are green, maybe?
20:23:11 <oerjan> < mroman> p might be an expression containing another or ;) <-- i don't see the problem.
20:23:19 <soundnfury> ;P
20:23:20 <zzo38> soundnfury: I sometimes use it.
20:23:20 <mroman> well
20:23:22 <Taneb> soundnfury, about half the haskell users in this channel
20:23:32 <Taneb> It's useful for blogging etc
20:23:33 <mroman> oerjan: An or is not a NAND.
20:23:38 * soundnfury does not like haskell, had you guessed?
20:23:53 <zzo38> If you don't like Haskell that is OK you do not have to use it.
20:23:53 <Taneb> Get out. (jk)
20:23:56 <mroman> The idea is, to translate a logic expression to NAND so that
20:24:08 <mroman> you can build it as a digital circuit only using NAND Gates.
20:24:09 <Taneb> (I'm still not here to force my opinions on people)
20:24:21 <soundnfury> zzo38: yeah, but I have to read it all the time in this channel ;P
20:24:29 <soundnfury> tell you what
20:24:29 <mroman> that means: No or, no not... only NAND.
20:24:39 <Taneb> I think that was what made me learn it, soundnfury
20:24:46 <soundnfury> next time someone posts a Haskell code snippet, I'll post some Z80 m/c
20:24:47 <mroman> !a is !(a && a) for example.
20:24:50 <Taneb> That and I sucked at Python
20:24:58 <mroman> because !a is not NAND-only.
20:25:05 <zzo38> OK post some Z80 m/c if you have something to write about it
20:25:25 <zzo38> soundnfury: Do you like ITMCK? Do you like TeX? Do you like LLVM?
20:25:48 <oerjan> <mroman> oerjan: An or is not a NAND. <-- you noted that my expression says to reapply toNand to everything, right?
20:26:30 <mroman> toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND (ENot (ENot p :& Enot q)) does not apply toNAND to p or q
20:26:38 <mroman> *nor
20:26:39 -!- Taneb has set topic: The nicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:26:39 <soundnfury> zzo38: Dunno about ITMCK, I prefer beeper audio demos though chiptune is nice too. SIDs suck though.
20:27:04 <soundnfury> I certainly do like TeX, although I'd write a program manual in either XHTML or (better) troff -man
20:27:09 <zzo38> Do you like PPMCK?
20:27:15 <mroman> also
20:27:20 <soundnfury> I had never heard of PPMCK before today
20:27:26 <soundnfury> I know almost nothing about LLVM
20:27:46 <zzo38> PPMCK is a program to create .NSF musics
20:27:48 <mroman> p || q -> !(!p :& !q) is not NAND only.
20:28:08 <soundnfury> NSF := "Not So Fast!"
20:28:14 <mroman> Currently I'm using toNAND (p :| q) = (ENot $ toNAND (ENot ((toNAND p) :| (toNAND q))))
20:28:26 <oerjan> mroman: yes it does, it should become ENot (toNAND (ENot p) :& toNAND (ENot q)) in the next step
20:28:28 <soundnfury> ncurses! foiled again!
20:28:33 <zzo38> .NSF musics is musics for NES/Famicom.
20:28:34 <mroman> hm.
20:28:37 <mroman> I'll try that.
20:28:53 * soundnfury is more in the Spectrum scene
20:29:04 <soundnfury> never learned much about the Famicom
20:29:12 <soundnfury> except for the "Famichord"
20:30:10 <nortti> soundnfury: about you spectrum lisp implementation. why wouldn't (lambda (args) (foo)) work instead of (lambda arg (foo))?
20:30:46 <soundnfury> oh, um, because that would be hard
20:31:11 <soundnfury> but you could go ((lambda arg (foo)) (args...))
20:31:18 <soundnfury> ie. you can pass a list as the argument
20:31:32 <soundnfury> but then (foo) has to extract the individual arguments from that
20:31:55 <mroman> oerjan: Still pretty bloat :)
20:32:33 <mroman> http://codepad.org/LeaJjhFp <- output of that.
20:32:33 <oerjan> mroman: well there are limits, iirc xor and equ are bloated when expressed in nand
20:32:43 <zzo38> soundnfury: Have you written any music?
20:33:10 <mroman> oerjan: It's also bloat because I only allow binary :&
20:33:23 <mroman> in real life you have nand gates with more than just two inputs.
20:33:45 <oerjan> yeah
20:35:13 <mroman> and now it's broken :(
20:35:47 <oerjan> mroman: um are you sure you gave the right paste?
20:36:52 <oerjan> toNAND (p :| q) = toNAND $ (ENot $ toNAND (ENot p :| q)) is definitely wrong
20:37:24 <mroman> how so?
20:37:48 <oerjan> the last ENot only affects the p
20:37:55 <mroman> ah yeah.
20:38:44 <mroman> your suggestion is
20:38:47 <mroman> toNAND (p :| q) = (ENot $ toNAND (ENot p :| ENot q))
20:39:03 <mroman> what if toNAND returns something in the form of ENot (...)?
20:39:04 <oerjan> no.
20:39:09 <mroman> then you got ENot $ ENot $
20:39:13 <mroman> whis is not NAND-only.
20:39:16 <mroman> *which
20:39:32 <oerjan> my suggestion is toNAND (p :| q) = Enot $ toNAND (Enot p) :& toNAND (Enot q)
20:39:47 <oerjan> *ENot
20:40:22 <mroman> hm yeah
20:40:30 <mroman> :| is wrong anyway :D
20:41:09 <oerjan> it's just about applying deMorgan's law in the right places, really
20:41:44 <mroman> Yes.
20:42:43 <soundnfury> zzo38: you mean chiptune, or in general?
20:42:48 <mroman> It still gets bloated way out of proportion :)
20:43:09 <mroman> but that's most certainly due to the binary and.
20:43:11 <mroman> as just a simple
20:43:14 <mroman> (!(a && b) && c)
20:43:25 <mroman> gets bloated too !(!(!(a && b) && c) && !(!(a && b) && c))
20:43:46 <mroman> Now If you add a && d
20:43:48 <mroman> you get
20:43:56 <mroman> !(!(!(!(!(a && b) && c) && !(!(a && b) && c)) && d) && !(!(!(!(a && b) && c) && !(!(a && b) && c)) && d))
20:44:01 <zzo38> soundnfury: In general (but including chiptune too)
20:44:14 <soundnfury> in general, there's a page on my site
20:44:30 <mroman> But that's good enough for now.
20:44:31 <soundnfury> http://jttlov.no-ip.org/music.htm
20:44:43 <mroman> As long as it guarantees that the term only contains NAND, it does its job :)
20:45:07 <soundnfury> chiptune-wise, I tried writing some AY music with SoundTracker about 5 years ago, but most of it was shoite :)
20:46:42 <zzo38> What is AY music and SoundTracker?
20:46:58 <oerjan> if you allow non-binary NAND, then ENot becomes just a single-argument NAND
20:47:36 <soundnfury> zzo38: AY == General Instruments AY-3-8912
20:47:49 <soundnfury> the sound chip in the 128k ZX Spectrum
20:48:08 <soundnfury> SoundTracker was a piece of Speccy software for writing AY tunes
20:48:18 <soundnfury> which you can probably find on World of Spectrum
20:49:37 <mroman> oerjan: That would require too much code change
20:49:47 <mroman> because then EBool :& EBool is no longer usable.
20:50:09 <mroman> but toNAND was actually not my intended goal.
20:50:15 <mroman> it was just a side experiment.
20:50:21 <mroman> so I'm going to leave it there.
20:50:26 <oerjan> ok
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20:56:40 <Taneb> Goodnight, guys
20:56:41 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:57:06 <mroman> I probably should remove rules changing stuff to implication or xor :)
20:57:42 <mroman> p xor q is smaller than (!p && q) || (p && !q) but it pretty much
20:57:47 <mroman> ruins other rules after that :D
21:02:09 <nortti> ok. now that I am making new version of my old lis.py I remember why I kinda dislike programming functionaly in python
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21:06:45 <nortti> the reasons it the fucking ternary if. whose idea was to make it have syntax (if_true if condition else if_false)
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21:15:06 <soundnfury> yeah, they should have used a nice sensible condition?yes:no like C
21:15:24 <soundnfury> or "don't do unless not or die()", like perl :P
21:15:58 <nortti> how does that work?
21:16:02 <soundnfury> dunno
21:16:06 <soundnfury> it's perl
21:16:28 <soundnfury> which does in fact have an "unless" statement
21:16:52 <mroman> nortti: a if b else c is pretty cool.
21:16:55 <soundnfury> and generally lets you put conditions before, after, or in compromising acts with statements
21:17:40 <nortti> mroman: a, b and c refer to what in that expression
21:18:41 <nortti> or maybe forth like condition if if_true then / condition if if_true else if_false then
21:18:54 <mroman> well
21:19:00 <mroman> its a IF b else c
21:19:07 <mroman> thats pretty like an english sentence
21:19:22 <soundnfury> mroman: trying to be like english just gets you COBOL
21:19:27 <mroman> "Go home" if "it rains" else "stay here"
21:19:31 <mroman> soundnfury: Good point.
21:19:35 <mroman> I tried to learn COBOL
21:19:37 <mroman> but I failed.
21:19:50 <nortti> good
21:19:51 <mroman> It's just a damn fucking stupid language.
21:19:53 <soundnfury> to learn COBOL is to fail
21:20:08 <mroman> I mean srsly
21:20:14 <mroman> It was supposed to be easy.
21:20:22 <mroman> but it's the total opposite of it.
21:20:26 <mroman> It's worse than SQL
21:20:26 <nortti> mroman: it is just bit irritating when nesting if expressions
21:20:30 <soundnfury> http://www.coboloncogs.org/
21:20:52 <mroman> hell it's worse than brainfuck.
21:27:53 <mroman> I actually can't find the real words to describe how much it sucks.
21:28:16 <mroman> I tried 7 minutes now. But it's not possible.
21:29:16 <mroman> s/real/right
21:30:58 <Phantom_Hoover> is Sgeo trying to learn cobol again
21:31:08 <Sgeo> No, actually
21:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
21:31:15 <Phantom_Hoover> who#
21:31:33 <Sgeo> Although I've looked at Tcl, and I know that's not really well liked. Although it's not bad like COBOL
21:32:03 <pikhq_> Tcl is actually fairly enjoyable, if decidedly odd.
21:32:13 <nortti> why id tcl not liked well?
21:32:18 <pikhq_> nortti: Because it's odd.
21:32:38 <nortti> ok
21:32:51 <nortti> is lisp well liked?
21:32:55 <nortti> or forth?
21:33:04 <mroman> forth no
21:33:08 <mroman> lisp yes. if it runs on jvm.
21:33:25 <mroman> allthough it's not called lisp anymore ;)
21:33:28 <mroman> -l
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21:33:56 <nortti> clojure?
21:34:05 <nortti> what about scheme?
21:34:23 <soundnfury> the word "clojure" always looks faintly visceral and pornographic to me
21:34:51 <mroman> Do I have to look up visceral in a dictionary?
21:34:55 <mroman> Or is it not worth it?
21:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like guts and stuff
21:35:54 <oerjan> @help dict
21:35:54 <lambdabot> I perform dictionary lookups via the following 13 commands:
21:35:54 <lambdabot> all-dicts ... Query all databases on dict.org
21:35:54 <lambdabot> devils ...... The Devil's Dictionary
21:35:54 <lambdabot> easton ...... Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
21:35:54 <lambdabot> elements .... Elements database
21:35:56 <lambdabot> [9 @more lines]
21:35:57 <mroman> intestines.
21:36:01 <oerjan> @dict visceral
21:36:01 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
21:36:02 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
21:36:02 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
21:36:07 <oerjan> oops
21:36:16 <oerjan> @wn visceral
21:36:17 <lambdabot> *** "visceral" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:36:17 <lambdabot> visceral
21:36:17 <lambdabot> adj 1: relating to or affecting the viscera; "visceral
21:36:17 <lambdabot> bleeding"; "a splanchnic nerve" [syn: {visceral},
21:36:17 <lambdabot> {splanchnic}]
21:36:19 <lambdabot> 2: obtained through intuition rather than from reasoning or
21:36:21 <lambdabot> observation [syn: {intuitive}, {nonrational}, {visceral}]
21:36:41 <mroman> @wn viscera
21:36:41 <lambdabot> *** "viscera" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:36:42 <lambdabot> viscera
21:36:42 <lambdabot> n 1: internal organs collectively (especially those in the
21:36:42 <lambdabot> abdominal cavity); "`viscera' is the plural form of
21:36:42 <lambdabot> `viscus'" [syn: {viscera}, {entrails}, {innards}]
21:36:45 <mroman> That's more interesting ;)
21:37:28 <nortti> @devil BSD
21:37:29 <lambdabot> Error: 550 invalid database, use SHOW DB for list
21:38:13 <nortti> @all-dicts BSD
21:38:13 <lambdabot> *** "bsd" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)"
21:38:13 <lambdabot> BSD
21:38:13 <lambdabot> Berkeley System / Software Distribution (manufacturer, Unix, OS)
21:38:13 <lambdabot>
21:38:13 <lambdabot> *** "bsd" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)"
21:38:15 <lambdabot> [46 @more lines]
21:38:59 <oerjan> @jargon BSD
21:39:00 <lambdabot> *** "bsd" jargon "The Jargon File (version 4.4.7, 29 Dec 2003)"
21:39:00 <lambdabot> BSD
21:39:00 <lambdabot> /B?S?D/, n.
21:39:00 <lambdabot>
21:39:00 <lambdabot> [abbreviation for ?Berkeley Software Distribution?] a family of {Unix}
21:39:02 <lambdabot> [10 @more lines]
21:43:12 <soundnfury> @devils BSD
21:43:13 <lambdabot> Error: 550 invalid database, use SHOW DB for list
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21:44:01 <soundnfury> blah
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22:35:08 <zzo38> Channel = (channelvariable-1) & 63 ; Channel is 0 based.
22:35:22 <zzo38> Why does it work like that?
22:36:52 <Lumpio-> Like what?
22:39:07 <oerjan> there are probably some dried grapes involved, madly laughing
22:41:51 <oerjan> :t mapMaybe
22:41:53 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> Maybe b) -> [a] -> [b]
22:45:01 <oerjan> :t find
22:45:05 <lambdabot> forall a. (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> Maybe a
22:46:11 <Lumpio-> :t map
22:46:13 <lambdabot> forall a b. (a -> b) -> [a] -> [b]
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22:50:48 <oerjan> > 26^5
22:50:50 <lambdabot> 11881376
23:06:10 <zzo38> Compose (Decompose g f) g = f
23:08:35 <zzo38> It works!
23:18:06 <quintopia> lolol
23:18:11 <quintopia> $ rsync -azvX My\ Music/ quint@74.117.158.92:musics
23:18:14 <quintopia> sending incremental file list
23:18:16 <quintopia> ./
23:18:19 <quintopia> 02 Hornpipe.mp3
23:18:21 <quintopia> Write failed: Broken pipe
23:18:34 <quintopia> how to fix a broken hornpipe?
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23:49:19 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, horn?
23:51:18 <quintopia> ;)
23:57:46 <Sgeo> Is it reasonable to want to make a non-eggdrop bot in Tcl?
2012-07-10
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00:05:31 <zzo38> (Decompose g f) will be a functor if f is, although the Functor instance for Decompose can never exist regardless of what g and f is.
00:05:51 <zzo38> Since it is not really a functor, but it has one
00:06:30 <zzo38> Like a functor
00:06:47 <zzo38> Although the type (Decompose g f) itself is not a functor
00:07:13 <zzo38> Yet it will make up a functor anyways if f is a functor even though (Decompose g f) cannot be.
00:07:29 <zzo38> Unless, perhaps, it is a subcategory.
00:08:09 <zzo38> I mean it is not a endofunctor on (->).
00:10:03 <zzo38> But, say you have: newtype Subcategory c f x y = Subcategory (c (f x) (f y)); data Desubcategory c f x y where { Desubcategory :: c x y -> Desubcategory c f (f x) (f y); };
00:10:56 <zzo38> soundnfury: You said you are going to post a Z80 code if someone posts a Haskell code in here? (Or, something like that)
00:12:59 <soundnfury> POP HL;PUSH HL;POP DE;INC DE;LD BC,0;LD (HL),A;LDIR
00:13:05 <soundnfury> there you go
00:13:59 <zzo38> Is this Z80 code a part of some program? And, what is LDIR for?
00:14:30 <soundnfury> That Z80 code will fill all of RAM with the value in the Accumulator (A)
00:14:37 <soundnfury> LDIR is LoaD, Increment and Repeat
00:14:49 <zzo38> OK
00:15:33 <zzo38> Now I can understand.
00:17:27 <zzo38> I have once wrote a program for GameBoy, which is not Z80 although it is similar to Z80.
00:20:10 <soundnfury> did that have a 6502?
00:20:30 <zzo38> No.
00:20:45 <soundnfury> oh no, some custom thing
00:20:46 <zzo38> The NES/Famicom has a 6502 without decimal mode.
00:21:00 <soundnfury> Sharp LR35902, apparently
00:21:25 <zzo38> (Actually, it has decimal mode although it doesn't do anything. You could use the decimal mode flag for your own purpose, possibly.)
00:21:47 <soundnfury> The hardest Z80 opcode to emulate is probably DAA
00:22:55 <zzo38> Is that BCD-adjust?
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00:51:04 <zzo38> I have read something to make stereo NES. But this wouldn't seem to work with Famicom audio expansions.
00:52:09 <zzo38> But to make it sound properly with stereo you should make up the game or music file to use the stereo. (If you play a stereo file on a mono system, there won't be a problem.)
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00:57:07 <zzo38> Using PPMCK channels, you could have: left=A,B,G,I,K,M,P,R,T,V,X,a,b right=C,D,E,H,J,L,N,Q,S,U,W,Y center=F,O,Z I think this way is compatible with the 2A03 audio so it can be used on a real hardware if no expansion chips are used. If you use audio expansion it could be use only in emulator playing .NSF file.
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01:04:22 <oerjan> whew that worked
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04:01:59 <zzo38> The free monoid structure is a backward monoid transformer, isn't it? So the free category will be a backward category transformer, too.
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04:17:02 <zzo38> Is anyone on today?
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05:45:25 <soundnfury> What kind of a fool would try to program in a language where you need to know whether "the free monoid structure is a backward monoid transformer"?
05:45:29 <soundnfury> Fscking Monoids.
05:45:39 <soundnfury> also, lo zzo38
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05:55:56 <coppro> soundnfury: monoids are the bestest
05:57:29 <zzo38> soundnfury: Someone who likes mathematics, I guess.
05:58:39 <zzo38> I also think the free monad is also a backward monad transformer, it is not a forward monad transformer like Edward Kmett has (he agrees it isn't, even though his article says it is)
06:28:42 <itidus21> soundnfury: these programmers are difficult to fathom. who can say what it is they aspire to
06:29:48 <soundnfury> zzo38: I recently graduated in mathematics from Cambridge. I don't like monoids.
06:29:52 <soundnfury> There's your datum right there
06:30:32 <copumpkin> oh man
06:30:40 <copumpkin> reductio ad exemplum
06:30:55 <itidus21> lmao. i just saw ion in the topic
06:30:58 <zzo38> Well, there are other mathematical structures too; monoids is not the only one. There is also semigroup, group, category, functor, monad, comonad, etc
06:32:08 <itidus21> zzo38: why is sound more interesting than graphics?
06:32:31 <itidus21> this is a game of find all the fallacies in tidus' post
06:32:42 <zzo38> itidus21: I did not say a sound is more instresting than graphics!
06:32:51 <itidus21> thats 1 :D
06:33:06 <zzo38> OK
06:33:17 <itidus21> 1) it isn't more interesting at all 2) zzo38 never said it is more interesting , hmm
06:33:28 <soundnfury> Don't get me wrong, I love mathematical structures. Groups are awesome. It's just that trying to design a programming language that reads like a proof from the abstruse end of category theory does not maintainable software make.
06:33:43 <itidus21> i think that about covers it
06:33:55 <copumpkin> soundnfury: and you've said that after a serious effort at seeing why people like that approach?
06:34:17 <itidus21> zzo38: my brain is difficult to live with at times...
06:34:25 <copumpkin> as it sounds, it just sounds like empty maxims and knee-jerk reactions :)
06:34:57 <itidus21> it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing
06:34:58 <zzo38> soundnfury: Perhaps to you.
06:35:33 <soundnfury> I just think its fans are living in an epistemically closed bubble
06:35:34 <copumpkin> "I know math, and I know programming. I've never thought of trying one from the point of view of the other (and it seriously does go both ways), so it must not be worth trying"
06:35:46 <copumpkin> if I had a dollar for every time I've seen that, I'd have several dollars :)
06:36:04 <soundnfury> this is based on the fact that their observed behaviour and signalling is consistent with the standard patterns of cults
06:36:19 <copumpkin> oh god
06:36:35 <soundnfury> also: don't get me wrong, I love the lambda calculus.
06:36:36 <copumpkin> nevermind, not going to try then :)
06:36:52 <soundnfury> idea flow between fields is great
06:37:03 <soundnfury> and programming<->maths is a shining example thereof
06:37:36 <copumpkin> can you explain why people like monoids in progrmaming?
06:37:39 <soundnfury> but the Haskell world feels too much like the "formal proofs of program correctness" movement from mumble decades ago
06:37:39 <zzo38> I just think category theory is good and can make a lot of things.
06:37:50 <itidus21> soundnfury: i've said worse :P
06:37:51 <copumpkin> soundnfury: except the approach to it is completely different
06:38:53 <soundnfury> it feels like you're introducing unnecessary machinery on a huge scale (and I mean *huge*; I mean, category theory? that's like a 3000-ton dragline crane) just so you won't have to [the moral equivalent of using one little goto]
06:39:16 <soundnfury> it reminds me of everything that makes me hate Dijkstra.
06:39:22 <soundnfury> And you do not want to be like Dijkstra.
06:39:48 <monqy> are you sure you understand haskell
06:39:48 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:39:55 <soundnfury> But this is all my subjective opinion, and I can't really make reasoned justifications of any of it. It's a gut reaction.
06:39:55 <monqy> because you're really sounding like you don't hth
06:40:17 <monqy> oh, a gut reaction
06:40:35 <soundnfury> monqy: I may be mistaken here, but I suspect that Haskell is like Quantum Mechanics: "If you think you understand it, you don't understand it."
06:40:36 * ion laughs at the topic
06:40:49 <monqy> soundnfury: what
06:41:02 <copumpkin> soundnfury: I feel like you might need to either read more about that approach to programming or opine less about it
06:41:11 <ion> soundnfury: Err, no.
06:41:20 <soundnfury> (note that in truth the un-understandable bits of QM are all Copenhagen's fault. Yay Everett)
06:41:25 <soundnfury> copumpkin: quite possibly both
06:41:36 <soundnfury> but I'm feeling in an obnoxiously argumentative mood right now
06:41:39 <copumpkin> :)
06:41:40 <copumpkin> alright
06:41:48 <soundnfury> feel free to devoice me if you think it's necessary
06:42:00 <copumpkin> I have no power!
06:42:03 <copumpkin> only the power to argue
06:42:13 <copumpkin> but I might go to sleep instead, since I must wake up for work tomorrow
06:42:17 <soundnfury> I have been up all night fixing bugs in quirc, after some wonderful person sent me about 10 bug reports
06:42:35 <soundnfury> (it is 0742AM here)
06:42:51 <soundnfury> oh, and I do mean 'wonderful', that wasn't sarcasm :)
06:49:52 <zzo38> I like mathematics, though.
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06:57:05 <coppro> mathematics is wonderful
06:57:56 <fizzie> "Those who can, do; those who can't, mathematics." Isn't that the old adage?
07:01:34 <soundnfury> fizzie: I think you're thinking of "Those who can't, teach. Those who can neither do nor teach, become librarians."
07:01:57 <soundnfury> (although in fact good teachers are very talented and all too rare)
07:02:22 <coppro> copumpkin: I've figured out what you are.
07:02:29 <coppro> You're a pumpkin that shoots arrows at people.
07:03:02 <fizzie> Says an arrow-shooting ppro.
07:03:28 <soundnfury> is a copumpkin a <bra| or a |ket>? I can never remember which is the copumpkin and which is the contrapumpkin
07:05:27 <itidus21> cop(|um)p(ro|kin)
07:05:48 <soundnfury> no, that matches copumpro and coppkin as well
07:05:55 <itidus21> darn
07:06:13 <itidus21> (copumpkin|coppro)
07:06:29 <zzo38> cop(umpkin|pro)
07:06:36 <soundnfury> cop(umpkin|pro) is, I think, the optimal regex
07:07:00 <soundnfury> also I've just had an idea about how to go about building my regsexp engine
07:07:10 <soundnfury> it has dags
07:07:30 <soundnfury> unfortunately I haven't invented my regsexp language yet, so I can't start building the engine
07:08:45 <itidus21> ... in my twisted mind, i'm glad it matches copumpro and coppkin
07:09:41 <soundnfury> I prefer cop(um)*[opr]+(kin)?
07:10:10 <soundnfury> copumorpkin, copumumumumumr, coppppppro...
07:10:43 <soundnfury> We need to define "copumorphism" so that you can implement it in Haskell.
07:11:09 <zzo38> But what do you want to define it as?
07:11:53 <soundnfury> Something more absurd than Zygohistomorphic Prepromorphism.
07:11:59 <soundnfury> If such a thing is possible.
07:12:28 <itidus21> i think we should drop it, it was a bad idea on my part to make a regexp out of someones nick
07:12:53 <soundnfury> ok
07:12:58 <itidus21> basically.. i know its fun
07:13:03 <itidus21> i know i started it
07:13:16 <itidus21> but, if we let it snowball nothing good can come of it
07:14:19 <soundnfury> mmm, snowball
07:14:21 <soundnfury> tasty kittens
07:14:43 <fizzie> Snowball is a stemmer-making thing.
07:20:27 <itidus21> once i made a trivia bot, based on chatters... it ended up turning into an exercize in hatred
07:20:42 <itidus21> i can't let such a thing happen again =^_^=;
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08:08:34 <soundnfury> oh, shall I bring in my chatbot? It has terrible AI
08:08:45 <mroman> Bring him on!
08:08:48 <soundnfury> (the answer is no, I shall not bring it in, it's horrible)
08:08:54 <mroman> I'm going to do the turing test with him.
08:08:58 <soundnfury> unless you /like/ gibberings and ravings about brazil nuts
08:10:08 <itidus21> oops i don't think i made the bot
08:10:21 <itidus21> i took an existing bot and loaded it with new questions
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08:11:27 <soundnfury> $Good morning.
08:11:33 <Virgil> soundnfury: Difficult whatever green speak uses labor processing contention watch gurgite intercal
08:11:42 <soundnfury> I hope that prefix character wasn't already in use
08:11:48 <mroman> $What are you wearing?
08:11:54 <Virgil> mroman: Is helps long let look last efforts #bay12games alloy tetrahedrite making here akath
08:11:59 <mroman> Failed the turing test.
08:12:52 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of Virgil?
08:12:53 <fungot> fizzie: rewriting languages could be their stats
08:12:58 <fizzie> O...kay.
08:13:07 <soundnfury> mroman: I told you it was terrible
08:13:42 <soundnfury> it has a completely scruffy neural net
08:13:47 <soundnfury> no baked-in language model at all
08:14:18 <itidus21> $hello
08:14:23 <Virgil> itidus21: Sense function language shall dead dinner soad recording one's message correlated
08:14:40 <fizzie> fungot: Do you even parse what is said to you at all? (No you don't.)
08:14:42 <fungot> fizzie: you can write code pretty fluently, but i suspect it sorta does matter. r5rs compliance matters.
08:14:58 <Vorpal> fungot makes more sense than Virgil
08:14:59 <fungot> Vorpal: no kidding... the basic health required for normal life without depending on others is a problem
08:15:15 <Vorpal> that first bit made perfect sense in the context XD
08:15:23 <fizzie> Sure, but it also quotes verbatim quite often.
08:15:27 <Vorpal> well yes
08:15:35 <fizzie> fungot: You're such a copycat.
08:15:36 <fungot> fizzie: then i haev to er, test it, or are you just happy to see me
08:15:59 <itidus21> $Who am I?
08:16:05 <Virgil> itidus21: , my do day : difficult noble dried deemed safest game 3 useful output physically
08:16:35 <itidus21> $Virgil, you have a lot of learning yet ahead of you.
08:16:37 <soundnfury> I'm guessing fungot is using a Markov chain model?
08:16:38 <fungot> soundnfury: there can be a valid identifier in xml is fundamentally retarded.
08:16:42 <Virgil> itidus21: Have latter much over having join few found getting fashion nist joints mad leaving
08:17:01 <soundnfury> itidus21: unfortunately much of Virgil's learning to date was in a channel whose topic is Dwarf Fortress
08:17:24 <itidus21> soundnfury: well.. im weirder than virgil
08:17:24 <soundnfury> also, xml is indeed fundamentally retarded. fungot shows good taste.
08:17:25 <fungot> soundnfury: so was fedora core 2 :d. ( which i don't
08:17:43 <soundnfury> itidus21: I don't believe you
08:17:57 <itidus21> $$
08:18:02 <Virgil> itidus21: My love colour land ii nice act result problems indent asleep she wheels generate
08:18:41 <itidus21> im entertained by the fact it doesn't have a baked-in language model
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08:18:56 <mroman> stlangbot: help
08:18:57 <stlangbot> bf_cu (Brainfuck cell usage); stlang (Evaluate stlang); bf_stat (Brainfuck statistics)
08:18:57 <stlangbot> bf_in (Brainfuck inspect last active cell); df (Deadfish); undf (Undeadfish)
08:18:57 <stlangbot> dfa (Deadfish - ASCII); dfc (Compile deadfish to stlang)
08:19:04 <itidus21> my kind of bot
08:19:07 <mroman> stlangbot: chat Can pigs fly?
08:19:12 <fizzie> soundnfury: If you want to think of it like that. It uses ngram language models, most of them trained using the VariKN toolkit from our department, but theoretically it's of course the same thing. (Though it's not quite the traditional "copy and sometimes jump" implementation but instead a "generate each word from matching ngrams" one.)
08:19:14 <stlangbot> [mroman] They wish!
08:19:48 <fizzie> `quote research into fungot
08:19:49 <fungot> fizzie: read-file does. that's the solution there is to be able to write
08:19:49 <Virgil> all interfere their record woman aspirations paranoid man steep properties space
08:19:51 <HackEgo> 16) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
08:21:27 <itidus21> internet.irc.freenode.net = bots essentially spewing random words to be read by human observers
08:21:45 <fizzie> I was going to link to the VariKN page but the PASCAL ("Pattern Analysis, Statistical Modelling and Computational Learning") page is all "PASCAL Forge Could Not Connect to Database: PASCAL Forge Could Not Connect to Database: Project Summary: PASCAL Forge Could Not Connect to Database".
08:22:08 <fizzie> Not a good summary, that.
08:22:15 <soundnfury> :)
08:22:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that PASCAL as in the language pascal?
08:22:24 <fizzie> Anyway, it does variable-length ngrams with Kneser-Ney smoothing.
08:22:26 <itidus21> i suppose one day in the future it will be clear to me whats going on with these bots
08:22:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: No.
08:22:30 <Vorpal> aww
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08:23:22 <fizzie> "PASCAL is a Network of Excellence funded by the European Union. It has established a distributed institute that brings together researchers and students across Europe, and is now reaching out to countries all over the world." But they also have a code-share site kind of thing.
08:23:42 <Vorpal> heh
08:24:32 <olsner> Network of Excellence...
08:25:01 <Vorpal> funny name yeah
08:25:03 <fizzie> They also do some challenge-style things on machine learning things.
08:26:12 <fizzie> Like the Morpho Challenge (unsupervised morpheme segmentation of text) that's run by our people every now and then, I think that's somehow part of PASCAL.
08:26:45 <fizzie> (Maybe it's not necessarily unsupervised.)
08:27:07 <soundnfury> "AI is bogus" - Reid
08:27:16 <fizzie> (Oh, it is.)
08:27:23 <mroman> AI is real.
08:27:43 <soundnfury> When something stops being bogus, it stops being AI :p
08:27:59 <soundnfury> If we know how to do it, it's just another algorithm
08:28:07 * soundnfury is kidding
08:28:30 <itidus21> i think AI is just an arbitrary name for a manmade machine which has the same properties as a natural machine
08:29:15 <soundnfury> but do we want the machine to have the same properties? Do we want our computers to say "No, I'm on tea-break, solve your own damn polynomials"?
08:29:40 <soundnfury> trivially no; so we aren't trying to recreate humanity on a silicon substrate
08:29:43 <itidus21> i don't things can just cross over that line
08:29:54 <olsner> using AI to figure out the appropriate time to have a tea-break doesn't sound very useful
08:30:12 <fizzie> I believe canonically it doesn't matter what we want, since what we will get is enslavement by killer robots.
08:30:25 <soundnfury> fizzie: not if Yudkowsky solves FAI ;)
08:30:57 <itidus21> my mum has one of those parent-who-is-loud-on-the-phone voices
08:31:03 <fizzie> Then we'll get the same but it will be done in a friendly manner.
08:31:40 <soundnfury> "This enslavement may be monitored for training purposes. Thank you for using Killer Robots Ltd."
08:32:04 <itidus21> welll
08:32:22 <fizzie> "Here is some relaxing music to listen to while you wait your turn to be enslaved."
08:32:33 <itidus21> if there is any trace of sentience or life in a computer, it is probably not what we think it is
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08:33:33 <itidus21> its... BEYOND what is written in books
08:33:37 <fizzie> It's life, Jim, but not as we know it.
08:33:44 <itidus21> the umwelt of a computer
08:34:12 <soundnfury> I wish there were some way to experience the umwelt of a mind with a radically different sensorium
08:34:35 <soundnfury> heck, there's no obvious reason why a mind's umwelt should experience time subjectively
08:34:38 <itidus21> i don't think it will resemble a human
08:34:46 <Vorpal> soundnfury, umwelt?
08:34:55 <soundnfury> time is, after all, just a differential consistency criterion
08:35:03 <itidus21> any more than.. a tree shaped like a bear resembles a bear
08:35:06 <soundnfury> Vorpal: ask itidus to define it, he said it first
08:35:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, define that word
08:35:22 <soundnfury> itidus21: um, which it does, that's what resemble means
08:35:32 <itidus21> Vorpal: im not qualified. kmc can tell you how i talk about things i don't understand all te time
08:35:33 <soundnfury> repeat the semblance of...
08:35:57 <soundnfury> Vorpal: there's a funky dynamic varying xkcd called "Umwelt" whose alt-text defines umwelt
08:36:05 <soundnfury> will that do?
08:36:15 <itidus21> i think xkcd led me to it
08:36:18 <itidus21> heh
08:36:54 <Virgil> my about they then be vassal reading eat events nice revolution tetrahedrite labor
08:37:21 <itidus21> also... there is the question.. of does everything have an umwelt?
08:37:43 <itidus21> for instance, if someone chops off my arm, and makes it protrude from under a bush
08:37:50 <itidus21> they might suppose i were under the bush
08:38:08 <itidus21> and assume that the arm had an associated body and mind
08:38:27 <soundnfury> yeah but they're mistaken as a question of fact
08:38:36 <itidus21> but, does such an arm take on a life of it's own?
08:38:48 <soundnfury> a physically counterfactual mind doesn't have a physical umwelt
08:39:03 <itidus21> soundnfury: well thats easy to say, harder to prove
08:39:09 <soundnfury> although a counterfactual mind has counterfactual subjective experience, because syntacticism
08:39:20 <soundnfury> your mileage may vary
08:39:23 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
08:39:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q rolebot!*@*.
08:39:25 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
08:39:27 <soundnfury> steep hills may go up as well as platonism
08:40:28 <itidus21> soundnfury: well... it concerns me that we have to make up arbitrary constraints as to what might have a mind.. it sounds more of a game than a science :D
08:40:46 <soundnfury> I think you should read Yudkowsky on this topic
08:41:12 <fizzie> Actually, maybe those two other q's that have very DHCPey hostnames and are probably ancient could also go.
08:41:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
08:41:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net.
08:41:30 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -q *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com.
08:41:33 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
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08:41:39 <itidus21> soundnfury: well.. i think we "focus" on minds like ours
08:41:54 <soundnfury> Seriously. Read Yudkowsky
08:41:58 <soundnfury> lesswrong.com
08:42:11 -!- copumpkin has joined.
08:42:32 <itidus21> found on earth, in the animal/plant tree, alive :D
08:42:45 <soundnfury> $Does a counterfactual mind have an umwelt?
08:42:49 <itidus21> hmm ok i will google these words at least
08:42:52 <Virgil> soundnfury: About something down i'm secrets prisoners lead whats debate hurt raw range working
08:42:55 <fizzie> fungot: Being just a piece of code, do you have an unique perspective on these weighty matters?
08:42:56 <fungot> fizzie: my mistake.
08:43:05 <fizzie> Oh, well, that clears things up.
08:43:35 <fizzie> ^style
08:43:36 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
08:44:02 <soundnfury> yuck! commode 64!
08:44:12 <fizzie> ^style c64
08:44:12 <soundnfury> Do Not Want
08:44:13 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
08:44:17 <fizzie> fungot: Say something stupid.
08:44:18 <fungot> fizzie: stack requirements: 4+ of programming. fortunately, the horizontal resolution is traded for extra color resolution. it shows which numbers should be aware of this location can also detect when that line is shorted to ground.
08:44:27 <fizzie> It's from a couple of books.
08:44:27 <itidus21> soundnfury: well.. also.. there is the case where we think something isn't a real living being, when infact it is.. such as a movie hero hiding in a wax museum
08:44:35 <soundnfury> $The ZX Spectrum was so much better
08:44:38 <olsner> fungot: more
08:44:39 <fungot> olsner: in machine language). the
08:44:47 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think of Speccy, then?
08:44:48 <fungot> fizzie: the 6526 cia chip has 16 registers which are in high-resolution bitmap mode offers a choice of 2 will cause output to the start of some sort. without a filename of up to four dots across per character, marking the end of the parameters of voice 1, a
08:44:50 <Virgil> soundnfury: Work be someone interfering race just bear trust small theory copies ball weponds
08:45:01 <soundnfury> itidus21: I think the point is that our beliefs don't determine whether or not something else has an umwelt
08:45:10 <itidus21> soundnfury: :D
08:45:11 <soundnfury> objective reality exists.
08:45:41 <fizzie> There were quite a few tables in the books that model was trained from, so often it's just names and numbers.
08:46:10 <itidus21> c64 ftw
08:46:27 <soundnfury> $ZX81 forever!
08:46:33 <Virgil> soundnfury: My explain take always ally having 30 4 virgil_the_dopey_bot play bone usually congratulations
08:46:36 <itidus21> soundnfury: well, i think we don't know if they are finite or infinite
08:46:42 <fizzie> I'll propose the C128 as a compromise, it has a Z80 in it too. :p
08:46:49 <soundnfury> pah!
08:47:32 <itidus21> obviously both of us have thought about this entirely too much, you probably more so :D
08:47:35 <itidus21> i don't even have a bot
08:47:42 <soundnfury> If you want a compromise, the only choice is the Acorn Archimedes, running RISC OS on an ARM
08:48:05 <fizzie> Well, I agree that everyone will agree that those are awesome, so I guess.
08:48:55 <itidus21> one time i was poking around in some store, and for a few $ each i got a book about 8085 and a book about z80 next to each other
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08:49:22 <itidus21> naturally i just left them on the shelf and proceeded to find a cheap copy of the great gatsby
08:49:54 <soundnfury> well I don't care because I have a garklein-flötlein
08:50:05 <itidus21> zounds
08:50:35 <itidus21> i don't have much books, but i am so happy that i got those.. that was a once in a lifetime find in a charity bookstore thing
08:51:05 <itidus21> online they're probably a dime a dozen though
08:51:14 <itidus21> >_< but thats not the point
08:52:23 <itidus21> humm... a lot of these machines i didnt ever see
08:53:13 <itidus21> but i watch videos on youtube showing games on spectrum, c64, amiga, etc
08:53:38 <itidus21> to be honest i find atari 2600 graphics so bad i can barely hold back from vomiting
08:53:43 <fizzie> soundnfury: You should compose a garklein-flötlein/flabberfleming duet.
08:54:03 <soundnfury> flabber... fleming?
08:54:11 <fizzie> It's something oklopol made up, I think.
08:54:31 <fizzie> <oklopol> it's a balloon with a one-way valve that is actually only one-way when one atmosphere of pressure is on the outside, but when less, it lets air out (not depending on pressure inside)
08:54:35 <fizzie> <oklopol> which is also an instrument
08:55:18 <soundnfury> itidus21: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiG8g1qlT9w
08:55:37 <soundnfury> fizzie: outsch
08:56:41 <fizzie> I don't think it actually exists, to be honest.
08:56:47 <soundnfury> Good.
08:56:54 <itidus21> @google flabber fleming
08:56:55 <lambdabot> http://www.facebook.com/people/Flabber-Gaster/100002426347550
08:56:55 <lambdabot> Title: Improve Your Experience | Facebook
08:57:00 <fizzie> But you do suck on it if it does.
08:57:01 <itidus21> eek
08:57:08 <fizzie> (That's the undefinite "you".)
08:57:10 <itidus21> i'm not clicking on a fb link
08:57:26 <soundnfury> fizzie: one would suck upon it, were it to exist
08:57:30 <fizzie> Right.
08:58:05 <Virgil> my that of they colour ally naïve empty events impossible those internet's near
08:58:23 <mroman> What sick person implements an esolang in powershell und puts it on pastebin so it gets deleted after a year or so
08:59:41 <soundnfury> you had me at "powershell".
08:59:44 <soundnfury> people /use/ that?
09:00:02 <mroman> Powershell is cool if you're an admin.
09:00:10 <mroman> And your architecture is windows based .
09:00:26 <mroman> It's better than vbs.
09:00:26 <itidus21> people will implement esolangs on literally any platform :(
09:01:20 <itidus21> ANY
09:01:38 <olsner> are there any esolangs on OS/2?
09:02:09 * soundnfury is waiting for someone to port Brainfuck to Tunguska
09:02:31 <fizzie> olsner: If not, by voicing the question you are now obligated to make one.
09:03:19 <fizzie> Anyway, you can run e.g. Python on OS/2, and there certainly are esolangs with Python interpreters.
09:03:52 <mroman> Like Madbrain ;)
09:04:16 <itidus21> soundnfury: i'm a computer game oriented computer user. contrary to what you might think, that makes most of my ideas distasteful.
09:05:27 <Virgil> profit using oxygen having turning allied overall fort/my .png i'd math mysterious
09:05:46 <soundnfury> wow, I got three words into that one before I noticed it was a Virgilism
09:05:55 <itidus21> $png is not gif
09:06:01 <Virgil> itidus21: Is each internet too optimistic fifteen mirrored sucks value raw range anyways building
09:06:14 <soundnfury> ... yeah. So there.
09:06:14 <fizzie> I keep reading "Virgil" as "Vorpal".
09:06:25 <Vorpal> heh
09:06:41 <mroman> THat last sentence doesn't make ANY sense.
09:07:00 <mroman> It's just random words?
09:07:06 <Vorpal> looks like it?
09:07:09 <itidus21> these internets are too optimistic...
09:07:20 <Vorpal> how does Virgil work?
09:07:25 <Vorpal> and who owns that bot
09:08:22 <itidus21> Virgil and Vorpal are members of V(vowel)r(consonant)(vowel)l
09:08:27 <mroman> probably if line.startswith("$") print takerandomamountofrandomwords()
09:08:34 <Deewiant> 10.11:13:42 soundnfury | it has a completely scruffy neural net
09:08:36 <Deewiant> 10.11:13:47 soundnfury | no baked-in language model at all
09:08:50 <Vorpal> Deewiant, so does that mean just random words?
09:09:01 <Vorpal> I'm not an expert on what neural nets can do really
09:09:20 <itidus21> a lot, as i understand it
09:09:25 <Vorpal> well yes
09:09:31 <Deewiant> Well, not completely random
09:09:33 <itidus21> :P
09:09:47 <itidus21> but, thats ideally
09:09:48 <soundnfury> It's very close to random in practice, because it hasn't been trained very carefully
09:10:00 <olsner> Vorpal: your brain is a neural net
09:10:13 <Vorpal> olsner, with feedback loops too.
09:10:16 <ion> His brain is a positronic net.
09:10:26 <itidus21> well... by that definition
09:10:29 <soundnfury> but I have a friend who calls himself a robopsychologist, who trained up a Virgil instance quite effectively, but then lost the net file and had no backups
09:10:31 <Vorpal> soundnfury, how much context does the probability of a given word depend on?
09:10:55 <mroman> $何
09:10:57 <Vorpal> I mean, is each word generated independently or does it depend on the words around it
09:10:59 <Virgil> mroman: Morning : countries experimenters nook egg usually patience called gnu momaw giant
09:11:18 <mroman> I'd call that random garbage ;)
09:11:24 <Vorpal> well yes
09:11:49 <Vorpal> is "momaw" even a real word?
09:11:55 <mroman> ランドム!
09:12:00 <soundnfury> momaw was a nick in another channel
09:12:03 <Vorpal> ah
09:12:08 <Vorpal> mroman, ...?
09:12:12 <soundnfury> most of this net's training has been talking on IRC
09:12:18 <Vorpal> mroman, I can't read that script
09:12:39 <mroman> Then you're probably lacking asian fonts.
09:12:43 <Vorpal> soundnfury, that is probably quite a poor source in general, considering how many chatterbots there are on IRC
09:12:50 <mroman> cjk in particular.
09:12:53 <Vorpal> mroman, oh I can /see/ it just fine. I just can't read it
09:13:01 <soundnfury> Vorpal: there's a (possibly outdated) tarball at http://jttlov.no-ip.org/tar/virgil0-2-3.tar.gz
09:13:04 <Vorpal> I don't even know which language it is for
09:13:15 <soundnfury> I haven't been actively developing Virgil for about two years now
09:13:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: They can do a lot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybenko_theorem
09:13:26 <mroman> It's japanese.
09:13:31 <Vorpal> soundnfury, so basically by using IRC, you fed stuff like fungot as input?
09:13:31 <fungot> Vorpal: if the shift " n" character shifts the printer is an addition limitation on memory usage, functional modules of code required, and
09:13:58 <mroman> But it's an english word ;)
09:14:10 <fizzie> There aren't that many chatterbots on "regular" channels, I don't think.
09:14:15 <fizzie> ^style fungot
09:14:16 <fungot> Selected style: fungot (What I've said myself)
09:14:20 <fizzie> fungot: SO META.
09:14:21 <fungot> fizzie:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov
09:14:32 <soundnfury> Vorpal: no, its input was mostly from humans
09:14:35 <Vorpal> hm okay
09:14:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, did you update that model after you first used it?
09:14:46 <Vorpal> that would be even more meta
09:14:49 <fizzie> I don't think so.
09:14:51 <Vorpal> aww
09:15:08 <fizzie> fungot: Go on, say something.
09:15:09 <fungot> fizzie: ( c) a player resigns from an office has whatever duties, then 3 extra " 0" and ( down-from n ( 0
09:15:15 <fizzie> Sounds agoran.
09:15:21 <Vorpal> I don't like that "anmaster no not markov" bit
09:15:26 <soundnfury> $What do you have to say to that?
09:15:29 <Vorpal> I wonder what it mean by that
09:15:34 <Virgil> soundnfury: My on explain we always was sabotage course countries circuit took experimenting
09:15:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: IIRC, it was elliott speaking to you via fungot.
09:15:40 <fungot> fizzie: it's just so stupid that ' stty erase h' has, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance,
09:15:43 <olsner> `quote no not markov
09:15:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
09:15:46 <HackEgo> 619) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
09:15:53 <Vorpal> argh
09:15:53 <mroman> $^*&^*&$$^$^
09:15:59 <Vorpal> THAT SWORD
09:16:03 <Vorpal> ^style ct
09:16:04 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
09:16:08 <Vorpal> fungot, SWORD!
09:16:09 <fungot> Vorpal: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!
09:16:13 <Virgil> mroman: Rest doesn't then 10 :s crappily sterling :smug phazorx 88/56 premimu date involved
09:16:15 <Vorpal> fungot, come on
09:16:16 <fungot> Vorpal: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
09:16:22 <Vorpal> fungot, ...
09:16:23 <fungot> Vorpal: you! take! we find! you, have that problem! ' tis the masamune!
09:16:23 <fizzie> It will always take a while before the sword makes an appearance, if you're trying to demonstrate it.
09:16:27 <Vorpal> fungot, go on
09:16:28 <fungot> Vorpal: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!! my powers are being drained. why not? then you should leave quickly!
09:16:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes indeed
09:16:53 <fizzie> `quote sword alone
09:16:56 <HackEgo> No output.
09:16:58 <fizzie> Aw.
09:17:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, though the probability of it appearing on first try is not 0
09:17:09 <fizzie> Obviously.
09:17:12 <fizzie> fungot: Can the sword alone stop it?
09:17:13 <fungot> fizzie: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! heeheehee... oh, can you fix the masamune!
09:17:28 <Vorpal> what was the log searching command now again?
09:17:33 <Vorpal> logpast? logpaste?
09:17:41 <fizzie> `pastlog sword alone
09:17:46 <Vorpal> fungot, right
09:17:46 <fungot> Vorpal: but, we are far outnumbered! just like crono!
09:17:49 <soundnfury> log pasta
09:17:59 <Vorpal> fungot, ...
09:17:59 <fungot> Vorpal: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10, then magic damage will be reduced by 10%. a star after any characteristic means it's at maximum strength! no matter what the price! it is, you idiot! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's a
09:18:14 <HackEgo> No output.
09:18:15 <mroman> fungot: festival
09:18:15 <fungot> mroman: these unique items make us invincible!
09:18:28 <Vorpal> fungot, and what about the sword?
09:18:29 <fungot> Vorpal: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!! empty!
09:18:38 <fizzie> Maybe I should take a peek to see how likely it is to appear.
09:18:41 <Vorpal> fungot, what is it that is empty?
09:18:42 <fungot> Vorpal: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10, then magic damage will be reduced by 10%. a star after any characteristic means it's at maximum strength! no matter what the price! it is, you idiot! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune!
09:18:46 <mroman> fungot: ^*&^*&%&
09:18:47 <fungot> mroman: the usual...test them. you can entertain us for awhile? never heard of it!! he sold the heirloom, it should remain unchanged! my son's the legendary hero, with sword in hand! you got the broken! the mountain of woe. it's likely that dalton came from the laboratories to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
09:18:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, didn't the perl script show it wasn't possible or something?
09:19:00 <Vorpal> fungot, come on
09:19:01 <fungot> Vorpal: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y. it'll be strong now. just like me! but everyone calls for the golemboss.
09:19:04 <Vorpal> fungot, oh well
09:19:05 <fungot> Vorpal: cyrus! are you leaving! what you do? wake you, but need dactyl?
09:19:14 <Vorpal> fungot, ...
09:19:14 <fungot> Vorpal: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
09:19:22 <Vorpal> fungot, tricycle?
09:19:23 <fungot> Vorpal: cyrus! are you leaving! did you people just come out of the closet? get out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's a real problem when the person i like most!
09:19:34 <Vorpal> I don't remember any tricycle in that game?
09:19:36 <Vorpal> what
09:19:36 -!- itidus21 has left ("ex officio").
09:19:41 <fizzie> Vorpal: The Man.
09:19:45 <Vorpal> oh right
09:19:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: The quote is from one of the endings, though.
09:19:56 <Vorpal> oh?
09:20:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: The one where Marle and Lucca are watching a slideshow. It's notable for being the only one where Crono speaks.
09:20:26 <Vorpal> hm I don't remember that ending
09:20:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did you get that ending?
09:21:18 <fizzie> It's the one with the shortest interval of time to get. I don't exactly recall the details. You do something in Zeal, but not the other thing after which you can no longer leave.
09:21:29 <Vorpal> ah
09:21:35 <fizzie> See Schala use the pendant to open the door, but not energize your own, I think.
09:21:38 <fizzie> Something like that, anyway.
09:21:42 <Vorpal> hm
09:23:01 <Vorpal> that game really had some great music
09:23:08 <fizzie> It's not very likely to start with "that sword" at the start of the sentence, but it's nontrivial to compute the likelihood of getting the loop in the first full output.
09:26:17 <fizzie> Or maybe I can ask the SRILM ngram tool, actually. (At least for the start bit.)
09:26:52 <Virgil> my an why food began scary what's used migrants screenshots graduation remote punches
09:27:07 <Vorpal> soundnfury, why did it just randomly speak?
09:27:22 <ion> Why did Vorpal just randomly speak?
09:27:34 <Vorpal> ion, Virgil is a bot though, I'm not
09:27:54 <monqy> whose is virgil
09:28:02 <ion> Whoever programmed Vorpal implemented its responses quite well.
09:28:19 <Vorpal> monqy, soundnfury owns it
09:28:29 <Vorpal> ion, yeah I could pass the Turing test with ease
09:29:04 <Virgil> think from back computer find internet televisions over up must crust acid legends
09:29:36 <monqy> is virgil supposed to sound like this
09:29:38 <fizzie> A case of spontaneous wordbustion.
09:29:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, are you going to do that now or was it just a thought that you could do that check?
09:31:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I was trying to, but I can't quite figure out how to tell it to give a probability score for the prefix, it insists on just scoring complete sentences, so it will check for the sentence-end tag likelihoods too, making the number quite useless.
09:31:01 <Vorpal> I'm not in a hurry really, but I do need to go out today and do some shopping.
09:31:19 <Vorpal> ah
09:31:20 <Vorpal> right
09:31:53 <fizzie> Oh, -debug 3. Well, anyway.
09:32:02 <fizzie> p( that | <s> ) = [2gram] 0.00938426 [ -2.0276 ] / 0.99999
09:32:11 <fizzie> That's the likelihood of starting with "that".
09:32:15 <fizzie> Not too high, really.
09:32:16 <Vorpal> ah
09:32:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, what is the probability of there being such a loop at any point during a generated phrase?
09:32:28 <Vorpal> or is that too hard to figure out?
09:32:45 <fizzie> That's too hard for me, at least.
09:32:48 <Vorpal> ah
09:32:49 <fizzie> Except empirically, of course.
09:32:54 <Vorpal> well yes
09:33:08 <fizzie> It's just that I don't think srilm generation actually ends up looping so much.
09:33:09 <Vorpal> but that could be a lot of phrases to generate to find that out
09:33:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, so there is in fact a bug in fungot?
09:33:57 <fizzie> Well, it's a legitimately different algorithm, it doesn't use the backoff weights at all. But there might also be a bug, since I think the perl script (which does try to implement the same thing) was less loopy.
09:34:05 <fizzie> Maybe some sort of a bias in the selection.
09:34:09 <Vorpal> ah
09:34:18 <Vorpal> fair enough
09:34:33 <Vorpal> well I'm off now. cya in a few hours.
09:35:26 <fizzie> FWIW, after having just 1% chance of generating a sentence starting with 'that', it also has just 1% chance of following that with 'sword', as opposed to something else. (12% chance of "that was", for example.)
09:35:32 <fizzie> I think I'll a lunch too. ->
09:38:22 <Virgil> my today doesn't deep circuit carvers processor screenshots awesome keep 17607 chain
09:38:53 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
09:44:38 <Virgil> is people together electronics ally verb monitored whats party bragging gains ones
09:53:17 <Virgil> be bow forward green noble wanting aspirations opinion harvested muddy open write
09:55:23 <Virgil> night gets did look away living hardly trust house increase 3 thread former happens
09:56:57 <Virgil> need good propose look rebel suppose five around gains visit vermin stuf off feeding
09:57:36 <monqy> thanks for filling the silence viergl "i knew i could count on you"
09:58:12 <Virgil> many for then person known fun fifteen inch master rust raz required linked tonight
10:06:43 <Virgil> after into air increased \ recording feeding copypasta family happenings doom camera
10:07:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oh i thought Virgil was vorpal and he'd gone mad
10:08:55 <Virgil> you information each let whatever dinner sorry ai genius empty circumstances comrades
10:12:45 -!- ais523 has quit.
10:17:34 <Virgil> hello edward trying others example race machines porthole food nook egg * tetrahedrite
10:21:23 <Virgil> each person later 4 large lagless differently keep young soon diagnostic carpathio
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10:28:34 <soundnfury> I think I'
10:28:38 <soundnfury> ll shut him up now
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10:29:58 <Vorpal> back
10:30:32 <soundnfury> blame mroman, he told me to bring it in; I didn't want to
10:30:49 <Vorpal> soundnfury, what was up with it speaking randomly when not spoken to though?
10:31:03 <soundnfury> oh, it speaks to cover awkward pauses
10:31:14 <soundnfury> though the frequency of that seemed to be set absurdly high for some reason :S
10:31:18 <Vorpal> so it was a feature, not a bug?
10:31:25 <soundnfury> a misfeature, possibly
10:31:32 <Vorpal> yeah
10:31:43 <soundnfury> the default settings for that feature are a bug
10:55:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: Out of a million generated sentences from the Perl script, 1887 (that is, about 0.2%) contain the words "sword alone can't stop". But it doesn't seem inclined to loop, so there must be some sort of an issue in the fungot babble generation.
10:56:00 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!... ...oh well! come again! these are my friends! let's get crazy! i'm opening a stall in leene! i thought she ate too!
11:16:45 <mroman> fungot: Are you still talking with those people not even close to match *your* intelligence?
11:16:46 <fungot> mroman: it's a machine that looks like you! and leene and the masamune! how can i do for you? thanks! it's about the missing queen. she still looks so much like leene, that they will take you to your place of execution?! strange, but!?
11:17:14 <mroman> fungot: I don't look like a machine.
11:17:15 <fungot> mroman: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
11:18:28 <fizzie> I think that's enough of ct.
11:18:30 <fizzie> ^style
11:18:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:18:39 <fizzie> ^style europarl
11:18:40 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
11:18:44 <fizzie> fungot: Let's be serious for once.
11:18:46 <fungot> fizzie: the bsch report on the economic fabric of coastal areas engaged in fishing. our modern boots fish the waters dry in record time. this review process must be a definitive operation. we must organise it and what would be a pity.
11:20:52 <fizzie> fungot: I, too, am very concerned about the coastal areas. Indeed, our reviews must be very definitive.
11:20:53 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, where the government and opposition of both spain and the united states
11:21:01 <fizzie> fungot: ...yes?
11:21:03 <fungot> fizzie: i have a beautifully written note from the responses to the green paper on the reform of the administration play a very valuable suggestion and the commission.
11:21:27 <soundnfury> fungot: I fear spain will suffer greatly through its continued membership of the euro. Do you agree?
11:21:30 <fungot> soundnfury: mr president, i too would like to raise one point, for an increase in the burden of proof and to the accounting officer, and it seems that fresh food and safe food go hand in hand with a public and open way and, as a parliament, are willing to believe them, but i think there is a danger that it would not be an obstacle to enlargement. neither the council nor the commission have supported. we believe that the monetar
11:21:59 <fizzie> It was obviously getting to the point right where it was cut off.
11:22:14 <soundnfury> fungot: Is not fresh food associated with lesser variety in food?
11:22:15 <fungot> soundnfury: mr president, commissioner, as has happened on this occasion. i do not know if the policy is ad-hoc or belated and, in payment appropriations, although a number of other states have also contributed to austria' s act of accession, for we know that these biological and toxin weapons, the implementation of innovations. this is a major development! in the current directive 77/ 187 on the safeguarding of peace and coope
11:22:41 <fizzie> I like the exclamation point!
11:22:59 <soundnfury> fungot: I did not know austria had major developments! in biotoxin weapons...
11:23:00 <fungot> soundnfury: we shall certainly pursue our talks with the conflicting parties, but, because the council is not in fact based on the rule of law in europe, fewer young people are concerned, that is what we shall do everything within its powers.
11:23:23 <fizzie> It's just like a real politician.,
11:23:39 <soundnfury> heh, rule of law? I didn't think anyone in the europarl knew what that meant! (Except Hannan, obviously)
11:24:00 * soundnfury bored now
11:24:16 <soundnfury> !rng dinner sleep
11:24:42 * soundnfury needs to consult a d2
11:25:10 <ion> a.k.a. a coin?
11:25:44 <ion> Except that a coin has three sides. :-\
11:26:46 <soundnfury> actually, not a coin; rather, bool d2(void){return(rand()<RAND_MAX>>1);}
11:26:50 <soundnfury> or moral equivalent thereof
11:28:23 <fizzie> @dice 1d2
11:28:23 <lambdabot> 1d2 => 1
11:28:30 <fizzie> Though we do have also
11:28:33 <fizzie> ^bool
11:28:34 <fungot> Yes.
11:28:44 <fizzie> (Sometimes it says 'no' instead.)
11:29:02 <soundnfury> oh good, you /do/ have dicebottery
11:29:33 * soundnfury is very sleeeeeeeeepy :S
11:42:21 <Vorpal> <ion> Except that a coin has three sides. :-\ <-- only 3? I thought it had an infinite number of sides due to the circular nature of it.
11:42:56 <ion> data Coin = Heads | Tails | Side
11:43:34 <Vorpal> ion, yeah but you can approximate the side as a polygon with infinite number of line segments (thus creating a circle)
11:43:37 <ion> Or sure, data Coin = Heads | Tails | (insert an infinite number of positions along a circle here)
11:43:58 <Vorpal> well, actually approximate is the wrong word
11:44:08 <ion> data Coin = Heads | Tails | Side Double
11:44:17 <Vorpal> you need a bigfloat
11:44:46 <ion> CReal
11:44:49 <fizzie> When throwing a coin, though, I think usually all the orientations of Side are treated as equal.
11:45:06 <Vorpal> I think a tetrahedron may be the 3D object with the smallest number of flat sides?
11:45:09 <Vorpal> no?
11:45:18 <Vorpal> (where are no non-flat surfaces)
11:46:08 <Vorpal> which means anything less than a d4 is physically impossible
11:46:08 <fizzie> ion: But what if you land in a non-computable position. :/
11:47:11 <Vorpal> the data type is CReal, either that data type is incorrectly named, or it includes non-computable values
11:49:40 <fizzie> Assuming, arguendo, that it doesn't include non-computable values, what's wrong with the name?
11:50:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the set of real numbers in math includes those
11:50:39 <fizzie> Yes, but the name is not Real.
11:50:41 <fizzie> It's CReal.
11:50:42 <Vorpal> actually what does the C stand for?
11:50:46 <Vorpal> hm
11:50:53 <Vorpal> computable?
11:50:57 <Vorpal> guess that is fine then
11:51:13 <ion> yeah
11:51:19 <Vorpal> the correct data type is obviously Heads | Tails | Side Real
11:51:25 <fizzie> Sidereal.
11:51:26 <quintopia> Vorpal: a d4 that has two 1s and two 2s is a d2.
11:51:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
11:51:41 <Vorpal> quintopia, true, that would work
11:52:28 <ion> The documentation of CReal talks of both constructive and computable reals.
11:52:35 <fizzie> Or a d4 that has one 1, one 2 and two undefined sides.
11:53:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, the worst case time when using that to get a defined value is infinite though
11:53:04 <ion> bottom
11:53:07 <Vorpal> this could be a problem
11:55:15 <fizzie> Well, I suppose it depends on if you need e.g. hard real-time guarantees for your dice rolls, in which case using actual dice *might* not be the best possible solution.
11:55:52 <fizzie> d4, the most dangerous die.
11:56:19 <fizzie> (For stepping on, at least.)
11:56:48 <fizzie> Though I guess a d100 might be easier to slip on, for example.
11:57:18 <Vorpal> heh
11:58:11 <ion> Incidentally, d100 also works as a d2.
11:58:21 <Vorpal> hm a tetrahedron should in theory be balanced on any of the points, right?
11:58:48 <Vorpal> as well as any of the edges
11:59:05 <Vorpal> so that means it is not actually a d4
12:00:00 <quintopia> theoretically
12:00:12 <Vorpal> indeed
12:00:16 <quintopia> but it is far more unstable on the points/edges than a coin is on its side
12:00:21 <Vorpal> well yes
12:00:23 <Vorpal> of course
12:00:48 <quintopia> in practice, with apointy enough d4, if you're not rolling it in play-doh or carpet
12:00:56 <quintopia> its not gonna happen
12:00:57 <quintopia> ever
12:01:04 <fizzie> "Assume a spherical d4..."
12:01:09 <Vorpal> XD
12:01:13 <quintopia> ...
12:01:21 * quintopia makes a spherical d4
12:01:23 <fizzie> That's what a physicist would say. :p
12:01:27 <Vorpal> hah
12:03:00 <Vorpal> I remember some weeks ago I watched as a group of people play a drinking game with dice. The issue however was that they did this on an uneven outdoors wooden table. The dice quite often landed in the small gaps between the planks making up the surface. They quickly agreed upon that the player could choose any of the two sides facing up in that case. And that nobody should try to intentionally roll it t
12:03:00 <Vorpal> o land in those gaps.
12:03:04 <fizzie> A spherical massless d4 in a vacuum, on a frictionless plane. Also an ideal spring would be involved somewhere.
12:03:34 <Vorpal> (they used classical d6 btw)
12:04:00 <Vorpal> (the game was fia med knuff, which I believe does not have an English name.)
12:06:04 <Vorpal> ah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch_ärgere_dich_nicht
12:06:20 <fizzie> Also called Ludo.
12:06:37 <fizzie> Well, similar to what is called Ludo.
12:06:42 <Vorpal> actually not exactly the same as what I linked
12:06:49 <Vorpal> the Swedish game is slightly different
12:07:02 <Vorpal> you have tracks going in from the outer track to the middle as well
12:07:15 <fizzie> I'm trying to remember the Finnish game that's quite similar.
12:07:22 <Vorpal> instead of places to put the playing pieces that finished
12:07:54 <Vorpal> which seems to be how that game works?
12:08:16 <Vorpal> yeah those "home row" thingies are not the same
12:09:02 <fizzie> Oh, right, Kimble. It's a licensed copy of the US 'Trouble', which is kind of similar, though not exactly the same.
12:09:24 <fizzie> It has that pop-o-matic die-roller device embedded on the board.
12:09:29 <Vorpal> huh?
12:09:33 <Vorpal> what is that
12:09:36 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trouble_%28board_game%29 has a picture.
12:09:43 <fizzie> It's a half-sphere with 2d6 in it.
12:09:50 <Vorpal> I see
12:09:51 <fizzie> You press it down, and then it pops up and rolls them.
12:10:11 <fizzie> I suppose it would help if you're, say, playing it on an uneven outdoors wooden table.
12:10:18 <Vorpal> I think Fia is played with 1d6
12:11:03 <fizzie> I'm not sure why there's two in that picture, actually.
12:11:19 <fizzie> The other one seems to be blank.
12:11:28 <fizzie> Maybe it helps in getting the other to roll more randomly.
12:11:35 <fizzie> I'm not a pop-o-matic expert.
12:12:11 <Vorpal> hm
12:12:15 <fizzie> The Kimble board looks approximately like http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Kimble_1968.jpg
12:12:30 <fizzie> The ones I've seen are not quite so 1968, but the shape's the same.
12:12:56 <Vorpal> does it work on a battery or what?
12:13:04 <fizzie> No, it's just mechanic.
12:13:07 <Vorpal> ah
12:13:49 <quintopia> fizzie: trouble is only supposed to contain 1d6
12:14:10 <fizzie> quintopia: Yes, but the wiki-article has a blank cube in there too.
12:14:18 <fizzie> (There's a video of the popping.)
12:14:32 <fizzie> The Finnish board picture just has one.
12:14:38 <Lumpio-> It's got a disc spring kinda thing inside it.
12:14:46 <quintopia> it should only have one
12:14:53 <Lumpio-> You push the half-sphere down, it buckles the spring, you let it go and it throws the die around
12:15:08 <Lumpio-> Like the entire "floor" of the thing is one disc spring.
12:15:45 <fizzie> Yes, though it has some sort of a thing that it springs back in one go, you can't really let it go gently. If I recall correctly. It's like a lid popping back to shape or something.
12:16:00 <Lumpio-> yes
12:16:43 <Lumpio-> I guess it's like an exaggerated jar lid
12:16:59 <Lumpio-> (The kind that makes a popping sound when you push it)
12:17:44 <quintopia> snapple lid :P
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12:46:37 <nortti> where does bmake search for sys.mk?
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13:49:39 <Vorpal> nortti, try an strace?
13:50:42 <Vorpal> nortti, something like this should work: strace bmake whatever params you want 2>&1 | grep -E '^open' | grep sys.mk
13:50:55 <Vorpal> you might want grep -F for the last grep
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13:54:11 <nortti> thanks
13:54:24 <nortti> it is /share/mk by the way
13:56:51 <Vorpal> nortti, strace is like the second program you install on any new *nix install :P
13:56:56 <Vorpal> (right after emacs that is)
13:58:41 <nortti> I don't have emacs and I installed strace 5 minutes ago
13:59:39 <Gregor> lol, did Dinosaur Comics go Zalgo?
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14:19:24 <nortti> I accidentaly busybox ash. is this bad?
14:22:06 <fizzie> Depends on what you accidentally to it.
14:22:18 <nortti> crashed
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14:54:11 <Taneb> Hello
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14:55:14 <fizzie> You always say that.
14:55:31 <Taneb> Because when I don't, oerjan calls me slow
14:55:52 <Taneb> ...because I always say it
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14:56:05 <fizzie> It's a terrible spiral.
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15:26:55 <Taneb> I've just broken by obfuscated haskell code
15:27:56 <Taneb> That's interesting...
15:28:02 <Taneb> And possibly a bug in GHC
15:28:39 <Taneb> But I'm using unsafeCoerce so many times, it may not be
15:28:53 <Taneb> Moving (<*>) from prefix to infix seems to break the program
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15:44:51 <Vorpal> hm what is the best way to parse an XML file on android? I would really like to just end up deserialising it into a set of java objects or something simple like that. However I don't have any control over the input file, so that approach would probably have some security issues
15:50:04 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/71201
15:50:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, why
15:50:21 <Taneb> (that isn't relevant to what you are talking about, Vorpal)
15:50:22 <Taneb> FUn
15:50:25 <Vorpal> and what does it do
15:50:32 <Taneb> Factorial calculator
15:50:39 <Vorpal> ouch
15:52:32 <Taneb> It... may not work for values over 9
15:52:48 <Taneb> It takes about 20 seconds for 9, and I haven't had the patience to test 10
15:53:28 <Vorpal> 20 seconds doesn't sound so bad
15:53:36 <Vorpal> I mean, how much worse could 10 be
15:53:39 <Vorpal> than 9
15:53:43 <Taneb> 10 times worse?
15:53:49 <Taneb> Using 10 times the space?
15:53:51 <Vorpal> Taneb, or how many seconds did 8! take?
15:54:09 <Vorpal> I have no idea what your algorithm is
15:54:23 <Taneb> 8 is about 1 second
15:54:29 <Vorpal> ah...
15:54:32 <Vorpal> also did you paste this in #haskell?
15:54:39 <Taneb> 9 is about 8 seconds?
15:54:42 <Taneb> Not recently
15:54:58 <Vorpal> <Taneb> It takes about 20 seconds for 9, and I haven't had the patience to test 10 <Taneb> 9 is about 8 seconds? <-- inconsistent!
15:55:07 <Taneb> It's been a long term project, this is probably gonna be the final version
15:55:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, how can 9! take both 20 and 8 seconds?
15:55:47 <Taneb> Vorpal, the first was my perception before timing it, the second was the actual time
15:55:50 <Vorpal> ah
15:56:03 <Vorpal> anyway, how does it work?
15:56:23 <Taneb> I can't remember the actual algorithm, but it uses combinatory logic
15:56:56 <Vorpal> heh
15:58:36 <Taneb> About half of the unsafeCoerces can be replaced by ids
16:00:19 <Taneb> On another note, one of my comments on reddit has mysteriously gained 45 upvotes
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16:08:06 <mroman> There are probably better ways to obfuscate haskell code.
16:08:20 <Taneb> Indeed
16:13:05 <zzo38> One way to obfuscate a Haskell code may be like that http://sprunge.us/CFFL
16:14:12 <zzo38> Now let's see if you can make improvements
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16:20:39 <Taneb> I'm unfamiliar with the default keyword?
16:20:56 <Sgeo> GHC extension I think
16:23:02 <zzo38> Me: 0 knockdowns, 77 punches thrown, 25 punches landed (32%). Opponent: 0 knockdowns, 79 punches thrown, 33 punches landed (42%). This is the end of the second round where I earned 9 points on both rounds and opponent earned 10 points on both rounds. Which advice should I select?
16:24:03 <zzo38> Choose from: (A) Go for the body; wear him down! (B) He's weak! Go for the knockout! (C) Make him come to you more, then strike! (D) Stay back and jab and save your strength. (E) Try to get him to punch himself out! (F) Go all out and finish him now! (G) Do exactly as you have been.
16:25:15 <Taneb> I'd say E
16:25:24 <Taneb> You don't seem very accurate
16:25:45 <Taneb> G is bad, because you look like you're losing?
16:26:08 <zzo38> OK, I will try that one. And yes I also think G is bad here. I will try E.
16:26:40 <zzo38> O no I got knocked out but made it up on time
16:27:03 <zzo38> Now I managed to knock him out, but he also made it up on time
16:27:16 <quintopia> what game
16:27:26 <Taneb> quintopia, this is real life
16:27:31 <zzo38> Top Rank Boxing by UltraSoft
16:27:37 <quintopia> nes game?
16:27:44 <zzo38> No! BBS door game.
16:27:49 <quintopia> oh
16:28:03 <quintopia> a bbs game with no bbs
16:28:06 <quintopia> neat
16:28:08 <zzo38> Well, it worked, now I have 10 points to opponent's 9 points.
16:28:18 <zzo38> quintopia: Why do you think there is no BBS?
16:28:34 <quintopia> zzo38: 1990 called and took all their BBSes back.
16:29:11 <zzo38> There is BBS! But now it is internet (by telnet) rather than telephone numbers. Specifically, X-BIT
16:29:26 <AnotherTest> I need a bytecode worth compiling to.
16:29:34 <AnotherTest> Anyone?
16:29:42 <quintopia> which ones aren't worth?
16:29:55 <zzo38> AnotherTest: LLVM is one
16:31:36 <AnotherTest> zzo38: thanks, I'll look into this
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16:38:59 <mroman> zzo38: well...
16:39:04 <mroman> let me grep my logs.
16:41:50 <mroman> http://codepad.org/zCZaTGxw <- there you go.
16:43:06 <mroman> and more obfuscated...
16:44:15 <mroman> http://codepad.org/oRZa6L54
16:44:19 <mroman> perfectly aligned btw.
16:44:39 <mroman> that's my totaly overengineered solution to
16:44:47 <mroman> if a == 3 then 5 else a
16:44:53 <mroman> *totally
16:45:22 <mroman> I could actually decorate it a little bit.
16:46:13 <zzo38> I meant to improve this program: http://sprunge.us/CFFL (such as by making it do some more things)
16:47:46 <mroman> oh.
16:50:58 <mroman> Nevertheless I'm proud of my solution.
16:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> help my connection has gone slow
16:52:41 <Phantom_Hoover> For example, it took about a minute for speedtest.net to actually pick a server.
16:59:03 <Taneb> zzo38, I just hand de-obfuscated that, assuming minimal extenstions.
16:59:09 <Taneb> I think I missed the point slightly
17:01:31 <zzo38> Taneb: Post it anyways. And then re-obfuscate it if you want to, and/or add the check for more extensions.
17:01:46 <Taneb> I think I see how it works
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17:02:03 <Taneb> It's quite good!
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17:11:08 <Vorpal> why do plugs which plug into the cigarette lighter connector in cars fit so badly? After all the actual original cigarette lighter fits well into there...
17:17:25 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/YeWM
17:17:33 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 55.5
17:17:37 <fizzie> It's not exactly the best-designedelectric outlet.
17:18:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed
17:18:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, but why?
17:18:37 <fizzie> I suppose that's what you get with de-facto standards that just "happened".
17:18:49 <fizzie> Do they put USB charging ports in cars yet?
17:18:58 <Vorpal> maybe in high end ones?
17:19:06 <Vorpal> the car I'm driving most time is from 2001 anyway
17:19:41 <Vorpal> Also while the outlet is indeed poorly designed, the plugs are even worse. It is like they were designed to fit different sized outlets or something.
17:19:58 <Vorpal> they have much smaller diameter than the actual lighter for a start
17:20:01 <Vorpal> and springs on the sides
17:20:06 <Vorpal> hm..
17:20:22 <Vorpal> actually, according to wikipedia there are different sizes!
17:20:25 <Vorpal> that explains that
17:20:28 <fizzie> It's possible they might.
17:20:31 <Vorpal> American/European
17:20:35 <Vorpal> right
17:20:49 <fizzie> I suppose they want to cover both without making separate plugs.
17:20:56 <Vorpal> yeah probably
17:21:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/EiIc
17:21:11 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 57.0
17:21:29 <fizzie> "USB standard 5-volt outlets are offered in tandem with cigar lighter outlets in newer vehicles." (From the same article.)
17:21:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, the difference is less than one millimeter though
17:22:05 <Vorpal> but I guess then you need springs to cover both, and that leads to a poor fit for any size
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17:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Moreover, my connection is over three times faster running Linux on the same computer.
17:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> That... is worrying.
17:40:20 <Taneb> My internet is faster on linux, but the connection has larger range on Windows
17:41:36 <nortti> what?
17:41:49 <Taneb> True, don't know why
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17:53:10 <Taneb> I've made it slightly artier
17:53:10 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/71206
17:53:22 <Taneb> (tip your monitor so the left side is up)
17:53:45 <Taneb> (and set it to white-on-black)
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18:14:18 <fizzie> Regarding raneg, that could physically speaking be different transmission power (or other related) settings in the wireless drivers for Linux/Windows.
18:14:25 <fizzie> Raneg, raneg.
18:14:30 <fizzie> Taneb's connection raneg.
18:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And speed?
18:15:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially when the Windows connection was fine up until about a week ago?
18:15:22 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Moreover, my connection is over three times faster running Linux on the same computer. <-- how many times did you switch back and forth and check? Maybe it was just a temporary issue when you ran whatever the other OS was
18:16:03 <Vorpal> <Taneb> My internet is faster on linux, but the connection has larger range on Windows <-- what do you mean with range?
18:16:12 <fizzie> Vorpal: You know, wireless?
18:16:20 <Vorpal> oh
18:16:21 <Vorpal> right
18:16:28 <fizzie> At least that's what I assume.
18:16:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I've also noticed regularly having latency that's normally over 100ms and regularly over 300.
18:16:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, so he isn't talking about reaching say the US on linux, but only being able to visit websites from Japan while using windows?
18:16:58 <Vorpal> *phew*
18:17:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, you never know. But it wouldn't be my first guess.
18:17:06 <Vorpal> (because that would have been insane)
18:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I was playing TF2 quite regularly when it started, too.
18:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, the US is closer to the UK than Japan...
18:17:35 <fizzie> I've mentioned my old-old dialup from the company who sold also a "Finland-only Internet" connection with a cheaper per-minute price.
18:17:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It's also closer to Sweden...
18:17:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, he said it had better range on windows though
18:17:52 <Vorpal> but was faster on linux
18:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, the 'only' was in a confusing place.
18:18:09 <Vorpal> oh okay
18:18:14 <Vorpal> hm yeah you are right
18:18:15 <Vorpal> it was
18:18:49 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway /your/ internet issues, are they on the LAN/WLAN side or the WAN side?
18:19:27 <Vorpal> I personally use ethernet due to how bad most wifi routers are.
18:19:43 <Vorpal> I think to actually cover this entire house I would need two wifi repeaters
18:19:55 <nortti> I use ethernet because I don't have wifi card
18:20:04 <Vorpal> well on my laptop I meant
18:20:13 <Vorpal> on my desktop I use ethernet for the same reason as nortti
18:20:22 <nortti> I am also speaking of laptop'
18:20:28 <Vorpal> speaking of which, are wifi repeaters passive devices or do they (and possibly the router) need to be configured in some way?
18:21:22 <Vorpal> no one?
18:21:35 <nortti> if I had working wifi card I wouldn't use 30 meters long ethernet cables
18:22:12 <Vorpal> if I had working wifi coverage of this room I would still use ethernet, because ethernet is faster when transferring files between the computers
18:22:14 <fizzie> At least the repeaters I know of need to be configured, at the very least with the specifics of which network they need to repeat.
18:22:29 <fizzie> Also, the wifi in this hotel is very very spotty.
18:22:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but does it need any sort of support from the access point it is repeating?
18:23:24 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that perhaps it does not, if it appears as a client to the AP. But I could be completely wrong. Certainly there was something manufacturer-specific going on in there.
18:23:38 <fizzie> Haven't set up more complicated wifi topologies than a single AP ever.
18:24:09 <Vorpal> speaking of signal coverage, the GSM signal is extremely bad in parts of the living room.
18:24:24 <Vorpal> perfectly fine in the rest of the house
18:24:37 <fizzie> Anyway; there's also a single wired Ethernet hole in this room, so we're just using an ad-hoc wlan between the two laptops (that sit about 30 cm from each other) to share it. Works fine-ish.
18:25:03 <Vorpal> heh
18:25:14 <olsner> Works finnish?
18:25:51 <fizzie> Didn't have any cables to wire these two computers together. Except for one Ethernet cable, but both laptops have just one port, so that'd be kinda counterproductive.
18:26:23 <fizzie> And I guess I could run some sort of custom softmodem thing over the audio-in/out ports.
18:27:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, at least there is something in the socket. I have seen a setup where a wall ethernet socket was seemingly connected (the status LEDs on the port of the laptop connected to it lit up) but it could not be used to establish a connection. So far nothing too strange. However, the strange bit was (when using WLAN) the laptop only responded to ping when it was plugged into the ethernet, even though tha
18:27:41 <Vorpal> t response was on the wifi IP...
18:27:55 <Vorpal> (the laptop was running windows 7 btw)
18:28:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, you have dual-ended audio cables!?
18:28:40 <Vorpal> why would you carry those around
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18:28:44 <olsner> cross-over headset cables
18:28:46 <Vorpal> I mean, how often do you need those
18:28:50 <Vorpal> I used one once
18:29:03 <Vorpal> (to connect line-out on a tape player to line-in on a PC)
18:30:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sometimes there's a 3.5mm stereo in-plug in hotel room sound systems, to plug a personal audio player to; and there's a 3.5mm hole in the N900. So I have one cable to do that, just in case.
18:30:18 <Vorpal> heh
18:30:36 <fizzie> That'd be unidirectional, though.
18:30:53 <Vorpal> olsner, any idea what "wifi repeater" is in Swedish, trying to find what those costs, but unable to find any in any of the webshops I searched
18:31:06 <olsner> Vorpal: I'd call it wifi-repeater
18:31:12 <Vorpal> well, no luck with that
18:31:42 <Vorpal> wifi bridge? Hm that would be at a higher level in the protocol stack wouldn't it?
18:31:59 <fizzie> I also have one cable from Nokia's four-pin 3.5mm A/V connector (it's compatible with regular 3.5mm audio, but also has composite video in it) into 3x male RCA, and a 2x female RCA -> 3.5mm stereo adapter, I think that might have a chance of working as well.
18:32:41 <Vorpal> hm wifi range extenders listed under "bryggor". What a stupid translation
18:33:18 <Vorpal> oh come on, they are as expensive as access points?
18:33:23 <Vorpal> how does that make any sense
18:33:32 <fizzie> They'd have much the same hardware, presumably.
18:33:37 <olsner> because they are access points?
18:33:39 <Vorpal> true I guess
18:33:55 <fizzie> Incidentally, the wired Ethernet (and probably the wifi too) here NATs, so the second laptop is now in the enviable position of being behind a double NAT.
18:34:02 <Vorpal> then why not just sell them as dual function devices?
18:34:16 <fizzie> APs often do have repeater modes, actually.
18:34:21 <Vorpal> hm okay
18:34:39 <Vorpal> well I mostly dealt with combined ADSL-modem/switch/AP devices
18:34:42 <fizzie> At least my Linksys WAP-54G had like five operating modes, of which more than one had to do with some sort of a repeater thing.
18:34:50 <Vorpal> and those of course lacks such features
18:35:07 <fizzie> We had pure Ethernet coming out of the wall back when we got the AP, so I got a single-function device.
18:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway /your/ internet issues, are they on the LAN/WLAN side or the WAN side?
18:36:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Well on a solid basis of uninformed conjecture I'd say it's probably on the LAN side.
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18:36:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, are you using ethernet, wifi, appletalk or token ring? Or possibly something else?
18:37:19 <fizzie> If token ring, check if the token has fallen out accidentally.
18:37:25 <Vorpal> heh
18:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal are you trying to make yourself look clever by naming as many LAN setups as you can.
18:37:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, could that actually happen?
18:37:39 <fizzie> I think that's in the BOFH excuse calendar.
18:37:42 <olsner> there should be a faint buzzing noise in the cable as the tokens swooshes past
18:37:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, no, I'm just sleep deprived
18:38:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I guess token ring would have had some sort of time out to detect if a participating device malfunctioned and didn't pass the token on?
18:38:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose it depends on how vaguely you are willing to interpret it. I mean, I suspect there could be a failure mode where one of the devices would repeatedly "drop" the token.
18:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Ethernet connected to a WiFi extender connected to a shitty router in the next room connected through ethernet to a modem connecting to a mysterious coax cable coming out of the floor.
18:39:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the modem doesn't do NAT?
18:39:49 <olsner> the way I think it works is that every NIC in the ring needs to actively forward information, so a broken device can kill the whole ring
18:40:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd tell you if I knew what NAT is.
18:40:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, network address translation
18:40:27 <Vorpal> if that helps
18:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Astonishingly, it does not.
18:40:36 <olsner> though I'm not sure ... I guess serious token rings would have several rings for backup
18:40:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, the bit that turns a public IP into a non-public one
18:40:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, like you have 192.168.0.1 internally and something else on the outside
18:40:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you talking about the 192.168.x.x thing?
18:41:03 <Vorpal> and multiple computers can share that external address
18:41:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, you are.
18:41:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes, or 10.x.x.x or another range I forgot
18:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I doubt it, considering it has one ethernet port so it'd be kind of redundant.
18:41:54 <Vorpal> olsner, debugging token ring sounds a bit like fault searching a serial Christmas tree light loop thingy
18:42:00 <Vorpal> probably easier though
18:42:13 <fizzie> olsner: There's some sort of a protocol that you use to join the ring, I know that much; and one of the stations is the active monitor. I'm not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to de-insert a misbehaving node from the ring. (It's not physically a ring topology, after all.)
18:42:51 <Vorpal> oh? that is kind of boring
18:43:07 <Vorpal> and why would you do a ring topology if it wasn't a physical ring
18:43:20 <olsner> IIRC the connectors were made so that when you disconnect a node you automatically reconnect the previous and next nodes to the ring
18:43:25 <fizzie> It was presumably easier to do access control like that, with the token thing.
18:43:33 <Vorpal> ah
18:44:07 <olsner> from before the ethernet hippies figured out you could just let collisions happen and recover afterwards
18:44:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's obviously going to be easier because messages will still get transmitted up until the broken terminal.
18:44:16 <Vorpal> the continually circulating token sounds incredibly energy inefficient btw
18:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> With lights in serial there's no current in any of the bulbs.
18:44:39 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, true
18:45:43 <Vorpal> olsner, and these days we don't let collision happen any more, instead we use full-duplex connections to what is essentially a specialised computer (the switch)
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18:46:33 <fizzie> Good old thinwire-Ethernet (10BASE2) is probably a worse thing to debug than a Token ring network, since a break anywhere will crap the whole segment.
18:46:44 <Vorpal> so today the whole collision detection stuff on ethernet is no longer needed.
18:47:03 <Vorpal> can gbit ethernet even run on a hub?
18:47:16 <Vorpal> it would kind of surprise me if it could
18:47:34 <olsner> oh, there was actually a gigabit token ring standard
18:47:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, was thinwire the one with the spikes?
18:47:37 <fizzie> We used to have thinwire network of ~20 nodes in a computer classroom at school. The cables ran across corridors under some sort of covers.
18:47:44 <fizzie> It often didn't work.
18:48:12 <fizzie> No, it's the one with the T connectors. Thickwire (10BASE5) is the one with the vampire connectors.
18:48:16 <Vorpal> ah
18:49:15 <fizzie> My "LAN" from those days also ran thinwire Ethernet using discarded networking equipment from said school, IIRC.
18:49:31 <fizzie> But that one had just two (maybe three?) computers, so isolating faults was kind of easier.
18:49:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, did faults happen though?
18:50:10 <Vorpal> not very often I presume?
18:50:17 <fizzie> I don't remember. Not often, no.
18:50:22 <Vorpal> right
18:50:26 <Vorpal> when was that?
18:50:33 <fizzie> Certainly not as often as at school, where people kept trampling over the cables.
18:50:55 <fizzie> I guess in 1997 or so.
18:51:09 <fizzie> Going purely on when I was at said school.
18:51:11 <Vorpal> I can't remember ever having a problem with modern cat5e cables btw. Not with the cables themselves that is.
18:51:30 <fizzie> They went twisted-pair when they renovated the computer rooms.
18:51:55 <olsner> Vorpal: it used to be possible to confuse crossover and normal cables though
18:52:19 <Vorpal> olsner, hm I connected normal cables between computers with no issues
18:52:22 <nortti> our school still has some thinnet networks
18:52:50 <Vorpal> olsner, I did that recently to do internet sharing to a desktop for example
18:52:57 <fizzie> It's not until 1000Base-T that I think auto-MDIX became standard.
18:52:59 <Vorpal> I guess modern NICs are smarter?
18:53:05 <olsner> Vorpal: well, that's what's been recently fixed, NICs with media detection that automatically detects what cable you used and what you should've used
18:53:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, auto-MDIX?
18:53:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: The thing that lets you use whichever type of cable.
18:53:13 <nortti> but they also still have 5" floppy disk drives so it isn't a surprise
18:53:28 <olsner> nortti: ... wow
18:53:51 <nortti> olsner: oh. and they are now moving from betamax
18:53:59 <Vorpal> olsner, the desktop was actually pretty old. Had 2 SCSI drivers in it. Actually an old server. Pentium 3 thingy. And it had 100 mbit networking.
18:54:08 <olsner> I don't think I've ever even seen non-TP ethernet
18:54:14 <Vorpal> but I guess the laptop could have handled the cable detection
18:54:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's enough for one end of the link to be new.
18:54:21 <Vorpal> it definitely has gbit ethernet
18:54:27 <Vorpal> right
18:54:35 <fizzie> (And some 100Base-T cards can of course do it too, it's just not as widespread.)
18:55:07 <Vorpal> <olsner> I don't think I've ever even seen non-TP ethernet <-- I have, though not while in use. But I have seen a vampire spike in real life.
18:55:10 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's mandatory in gigabit Ethernet or not, but at least it's very common.
18:55:43 <Vorpal> I think it was in some sort of historical display of technology in an internal window at university or something.
18:55:48 <fizzie> "hen two auto-MDIX ports are connected together, which is normal for modern products, the algorithm resolution time is typically < 500 ms. However, a ~1.4 second asynchronous timer is used to resolve the extremely rare case (with a probability of less than 1 in 1021) of a loop where each end keeps switching."
18:55:54 <fizzie> Heh.
18:55:58 <fizzie> ("When", not "hen".)
18:56:10 <fizzie> And 10^21.
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18:56:38 <olsner> would've been somewhat ironic if they made it so that MDIX couldn't reliably negotiate with MDIX
18:56:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, and couldn't that 1.4 second timer also end up triggering at the same time?
18:56:56 <Vorpal> very unlikely, sure
18:57:00 <Vorpal> but it /could/ happen
18:57:45 <fizzie> There's a PRNG involved for the "regular" way, that's where the 10^21 comes from I think.
18:59:13 <olsner> oh, 10^21, I thought it was 1024 minus 3 for some reason
18:59:14 <fizzie> The ~1.4 second timer resets the PRNG or something.
19:00:20 <Vorpal> ah
19:00:28 <fizzie> I suppose it's considered just completely unlikely for both ends to end up with the same random seed every time, the reset is just there in case it happens once.
19:02:08 <fizzie> I have had some autonegotiation issues with modern-ish Ethernet, though.
19:02:21 <olsner> hmm, 500ms is long enough to be noticable
19:02:21 <mroman> Ünicode? ISO-8859
19:02:26 <fizzie> Some link somewhere only worked with autonegotiation disabled.
19:02:39 <fizzie> olsner: < 500ms.
19:03:23 <fizzie> olsner: The PRNG is clocked at 55ms, and the probability for a matching run of length 2 is around 0.1, so in 90% of cases it's about 100ms.
19:03:38 <fizzie> I mean, about 55ms.
19:03:58 <nortti> olsner: also we still sometimes use reel-to-reel tape recorders and slide projectors. just to give you idea how moredn our school is :P
19:04:02 <fizzie> (Obviously, with a run of length 0 it's "instant", and for length 1 it'd be that 55ms.)
19:04:19 <fizzie> I've seen an overhead projector used at Aalto too.
19:04:30 <olsner> 55ms is 7MB at gigabit speeds
19:04:59 <fizzie> olsner: Sure, but consider it in the speeds of your grubby fingers plugging that cable in.
19:05:55 <Vorpal> also you can't start a transfer the instant you plug it in
19:06:08 <nortti> fizzie: those where you have to put see through sheet on the glass surface and then it projects the image?
19:06:16 <fizzie> nortti: Right.
19:06:27 <Vorpal> when I connect this laptop it takes considerably more than a second before DHCP and all that completed
19:06:28 <nortti> we use them all the time
19:06:33 <olsner> they're pretty neat - remove the mirror on top and you have an optical burning device
19:06:39 <Vorpal> olsner, so that auto negotiation is not really significant
19:06:41 <fizzie> It's got a Fresnel lens in it.
19:07:30 <fizzie> And the light output can set things on fire, that's true. Or at least make things start smoking.
19:07:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, wouldn't that make the image quality suffer somewhat? Unless it is between the lamp and the image
19:08:04 <Taneb> "That light gave me my first cigarette, and it's been downhill from there"
19:08:27 <Vorpal> Taneb, what
19:08:47 <Taneb> <fizzie> ... Or at least make things start smoking.
19:09:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: It is. The lamp is in the box, the lens forms the top of the box the slide sits on top of that, and then there's a lens-mirror combination in an arm to direct the image to the wall.
19:09:41 <Vorpal> Taneb, yes but what did it have to do with cigarettes?
19:09:53 <Taneb> As in, smoking?
19:09:57 <fizzie> The lamps fail every so often, too. And they have noisy fans.
19:10:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
19:10:27 <Vorpal> Taneb, yes but in the context it isn't that type of smoking. That joke was too far fetched.
19:10:39 <Taneb> THAT JOKE WAS NOT FAR-FETCHED ENOUGH
19:10:51 <olsner> Vorpal: har du aldrig sett en OH-projektor?
19:10:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, so pretty much the same issues as PC projectors have
19:11:01 <Vorpal> olsner, sure I have, what about them
19:11:10 <olsner> those are the ones we were talking about
19:11:30 <Vorpal> oh with "overhead" I imagined he meant something mounted overhead
19:11:32 <Vorpal> right, duh
19:11:51 <Vorpal> didn't think about what OH meant
19:11:53 <Vorpal> oh well
19:12:06 <Vorpal> I never seen an OH projector with fans in it though
19:12:17 <fizzie> That's weird.
19:12:28 <fizzie> Pretty much all I've seen have had large fans to stop the lamp from melting.
19:12:29 <quintopia> i've never seen one without fans
19:12:40 <Vorpal> well, maybe the fans were just very quiet?
19:12:49 <quintopia> probs
19:12:57 <nortti> http://ubuntusatanic.org/news/
19:12:57 <fizzie> They're generally large, so I suppose they can be quiet if the manufacturer cares.
19:13:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, also for the lamp thingy, the ones I have seen have a slider on the side that allow you to switch to a different lamp if the primary one dies.
19:13:21 <Vorpal> so you can continue the lecture
19:13:31 <fizzie> That sounds so high-end.
19:13:49 <Vorpal> also every single room at the university I attended had an OH projector
19:13:59 <Vorpal> well, every single lecture room or such
19:14:04 <Vorpal> (not the toilets obviously)
19:14:20 <ion> Your toilets didn’t have OH projectors? :-(
19:14:25 <Vorpal> alas no
19:14:31 <fizzie> I don't think our lecture rooms all have them any more, they've been somewhat replaced by those document-camera dealies.
19:14:34 <fizzie> Many still do, though.
19:14:46 <Sgeo> Does Red Dwarf's continuity stay consistent?
19:14:47 <fizzie> Even if it's somewhere in a corner.
19:15:07 <Sgeo> e.g. when early episodes have things such as Lister getting married in the future, will it happen in the show?
19:15:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I only seen those in two places. One portable that a specific teacher used, and one in the 600-person lecture auditorium
19:15:22 <Sgeo> </season-2-spoiler>
19:15:30 <Vorpal> s/lecture/
19:15:34 <olsner> Sgeo: I think it's much more important for them that things are funny than that they make sense
19:15:44 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Even if it's somewhere in a corner. <-- well yes
19:15:58 <Vorpal> most teachers seem to use portable projectors
19:16:02 <Vorpal> and those have loud fans
19:16:38 <fizzie> Vorpal: Ooooh, I remember the *best thing*. Our maths teacher in grades 7-12 (numbered linearly from start of school) had this TI-86 add-on device, it had a translucent LCD screen that you put on top of a regular overhead projector.
19:16:44 <fizzie> Then it showed the calculator screen on it.
19:16:50 <fizzie> It was the fanciest thing in the world.
19:16:50 <olsner> sweet
19:16:56 <Vorpal> oh I heard of those
19:17:02 <Vorpal> never seen one
19:17:09 <Vorpal> 7-12 (numbered linearly from start of school) <-- how else would you number them?
19:17:25 <olsner> some laptops have/had displays where you could remove the back of them and use them on an OH projector
19:17:37 <fizzie> They're actually 7-9 and then high-school 1-3.
19:17:38 <Vorpal> actually, we have 1-9 then three years in the gymnasium, then whatever years at university
19:17:42 <fizzie> Yes.
19:18:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, you had the same teacher in primary school and high school?
19:18:10 <fizzie> We have a very similar system, but in general the school systems differ so much, I thought a linear numbering would be easier.
19:19:01 <fizzie> The school did both 7-9 and the high-school 1-3; quite many here do.
19:19:13 <fizzie> The 1-6 and 7-9 parts are generally in different schools.
19:19:20 <fizzie> Ala-aste and yläaste.
19:19:39 <nortti> our school is 1-9 and 10
19:19:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
19:19:50 <fizzie> Not all teachers were involved in both, but they shared some infrastructure.
19:20:17 <fizzie> Also, we had this math-oriented classes-7-9 thing where we did some early high school math courses early, to get a bit of a head start.
19:20:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think I did 1-6 in one school, then 7-9 in another, then 1-3 of gymnasium at yet another place
19:20:26 <fizzie> So we had the same maths teacher all the way through.
19:20:30 <Vorpal> and then university of course
19:21:02 <oerjan> 16:20:39: <Taneb> I'm unfamiliar with the default keyword?
19:21:02 <oerjan> 16:20:56: <Sgeo> GHC extension I think
19:21:03 <Vorpal> actually I did 1-2 in one place but it was technically the same school, just across the road from the 3-6 one
19:21:04 <fizzie> That's also quite often the case. And I do think I had to apply for the high school bit separately. They just are in the same building, and some teachers tech in bth.
19:21:22 <fizzie> Gah, I'm drpping lttrs.
19:21:28 <oerjan> default is standard, but ghc has an extension ExtendedDefaultRules or something which makes it more flexible.
19:21:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, inded
19:21:48 <Taneb> oerjan, how does it work?
19:22:04 <fizzie> Anyway, this is all beside the point of what a fancy TI-86 add-on device. It required a custom-modified calculator with a bulge where the screen cable connected to.
19:22:21 <fizzie> Or maybe it was a 85.
19:22:30 <fizzie> One of them, anyway.
19:23:24 <fizzie> http://education.ti.com/educationportal/sites/US/productDetail/us_viewscreen_panel.html
19:23:27 <fizzie> This thing.
19:23:48 <fizzie> Well, that's for the TI-Nspire.
19:23:55 <fizzie> But it looked rather similar.
19:24:24 <Vorpal> heh
19:25:11 <oerjan> Taneb: e.g. default (Integer, Double) makes haskell choose the first of Integer and Double which fits whenever numeric types need to be defaulted. (that's the default default, btw :P). defaulting can happen either in cases like x^2, where there is absolutely nothing to tell what type 2 should be other than an Integral, or when the monomorphism restriction hits like with x = 2 as a declaration at top level.
19:25:39 <Taneb> Oh, cool
19:27:47 <oerjan> Taneb: the standard only allows defaulting to happen when all typeclasses involved are in the haskell report and at least one is numeric. (although i've previously found ghc doesn't include e.g. Random). ghc's extension relaxes this to allow any single type (kind * i think, so cannot be used to choose a Monad) type classes which don't need to be standard ones.
19:28:39 <oerjan> iirc ghci by default runs with the extension and default ((), Integer, Double), which means you get () as the default for e.g. Show with no numeric content
19:29:50 <oerjan> i should check that Monad thing, because i briefly had an idea for your obfuscation which might work if that isn't the case
19:30:14 <Taneb> default ((-> r)?
19:30:26 <oerjan> something like that
19:30:34 <Taneb> (->) r
19:30:38 <Taneb> Whatever
19:31:14 <oerjan> although more likely something like default ((()->())->()->())->(()->())->()->()
19:31:20 <oerjan> *+)
19:32:33 <oerjan> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/interactive-evaluation.html#extended-default-rules
19:32:40 <Taneb> On a different note, is it bad that I think the Env comonad makes more sense than the Reader monad?
19:33:53 * oerjan backs off :P
19:38:08 <Taneb> Come back!
19:48:12 <oerjan> i have never used a comonad for real, i think
19:49:48 <oerjan> oh wait ghc doesn't actually drop the numeric requirement entirely :( it just adds Show, Eq, and Ord.
19:52:01 <Taneb> I just have a vague understanding of Monads as adding context and Comonads as using context
19:52:27 <oerjan> close enough, now go write a tutorial!
19:52:43 <Taneb> Aww man, I suck at writing tutorials
19:53:01 <oerjan> ...as do most people who have written monad tutorials.
19:53:17 <oerjan> @quote tutorial
19:53:18 <lambdabot> Lemmih says: inv2004: Haskell isn't like all the other mainstream languages. You really need to read a tutorial.
19:53:24 <oerjan> @quote tutorial
19:53:25 <lambdabot> djahandarie says: I think there should be a new internet rule.... "if it exists, there is a monad tutorial using it as an analogy"
19:53:28 <Taneb> True, so I'd fit right in
19:53:35 <oerjan> @quote tutorial
19:53:35 <lambdabot> arw says: ...and a basic law of haskell is, 50% of all documentation has to be monad tutorials :)
19:53:39 <oerjan> @quote tutorial
19:53:40 <lambdabot> lispy says: monad tutorial : haskell :: conflictor representation : darcs hacking
19:53:58 <oerjan> wtf is a conflictor representation
19:54:01 <oerjan> @quote tutorial
19:54:01 <lambdabot> myname says: i prefer monat tutorials like buttiros, delicious if it comes in, but what's left is just poo
19:54:18 <oerjan> @quote tutorial
19:54:18 <lambdabot> djahandarie says: I think there should be a new internet rule.... "if it exists, there is a monad tutorial using it as an analogy"
19:56:40 <Sgeo> I am addicted to Red Dwarf
19:57:28 <mroman> Is that a drug?
19:57:52 <Taneb> I believe it, in this case, is a TV Show which Phantom_Hoover mentioned yesterday
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19:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it's OK, it's a British show.
19:59:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You'll be into the long, painful withdrawal in no time at all.
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20:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Especially if you don't watch anything past the second episode of the 7th series because it's all shit.
20:02:17 <oerjan> yeah, that show's got no kind of atmosphere
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20:18:43 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's easy to stave off for a bit.
20:18:54 <pikhq> By watching more British TV.
20:19:03 <pikhq> Unfortunately, this only *delays* the problem.
20:19:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, have you watched Spaced, Spaced is even harder to cope with because there are only 14 episodes and coming down again renders you unable to laugh at lesser comedy.
20:19:48 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so recommend that he doesn't watch it then?
20:20:11 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, dunno what you're watching, but sitcoms are so short you can easily burn through the entire run in a day or two if you're binging.
20:20:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, if there is eventually enough British TV it can delay it for the rest of your life?
20:20:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: No.
20:20:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, see above.
20:20:53 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but you can move on to other sitcoms. This delays the problem for a few days.
20:21:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed, I'm not saying it is currently possible, TV as a medium hasn't been around long enough
20:21:09 <pikhq> Alas, you quickly come across the problem that 99% of everything is shit.
20:21:14 <Vorpal> but your great-great-grandchildren might be able to do so
20:21:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Your average sitcom has maybe 9 hours of footage total, more for real long-runners.
20:21:41 <Vorpal> hm
20:21:53 <Vorpal> okay, great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren then
20:22:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Also re Spaced you can't not watch Spaced
20:22:50 <pikhq> I'd imagine there's enough British TV you could spend a fairly large portion of your life watching all of it. However, there's not enough British TV *worth watching* for that.
20:23:36 <Phantom_Hoover> You could get a lot of mileage out of classic Doctor Who, but it's a) often bad and b) often lost forever.
20:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Worse still, a and b show little correlation.
20:24:31 <pikhq> Kinda wish there was just a list of decent classic Doctor Who...
20:24:50 <pikhq> Perhaps it'd be short enough you could watch all of it without being highly obsessed.
20:29:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the BBC does have that comprehensive episode guide with rough commentary.
20:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (It's here if you want to look: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/ )
20:31:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wow they still have the same early 2000s media player and everything,
20:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> (Note especially the bottom line and analysis sections in the "In Detail" page.)
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20:39:43 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I've heard of Red Dwarf before yesterday
20:39:52 <Sgeo> Haven't heard of Spaced until you mentioned it earlier
20:40:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you seen Hot Fuzz and/or Shaun of the Dead?
20:40:33 <Sgeo> Heard of Shaun of the Dead. I think because of the Basic Instructions strip
20:41:03 <Sgeo> Now starting Season 3 of Red Dwarf
20:41:36 <olsner> I liked Hyperdrive because it features Miranda Hart: http://akas.imdb.com/title/tt0481449/
20:41:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well if you'd seen either I'd say it's that but in sitcom form and also even better, but otherwise it's really hard to describe.
20:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, was it any good factoring out Miranda Hart?
20:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Because TbH I could just watch Miranda, considering it has a higher Hart:everyone else ratio, and also it has that lady from Mitchell and Webb.
20:43:09 <olsner> well, Miranda is also better
20:43:27 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is Red Dwarf still ongoing, the Facebook page said something about "Series X coming later this year!"
20:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It was cancelled after going to shit, but I think Dave bought the rights and are trying to resurrect it.
20:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> They did a 3-part miniseries in 2009 which I haven't seen, although the one clip I have watched was funny
20:48:03 <Phantom_Hoover> tell me sgeo did you have a humorous misunderstanding at the use of 'dave' there
20:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> because i hope so
20:48:51 <Sgeo> Of course I thought the character, but I assume an actual... person
20:48:58 <Sgeo> *thought the character at first
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20:50:14 <Phantom_Hoover> that's funny because i was actually talking about the tv channel
20:50:57 <Sgeo> ...ah
20:51:10 <Sgeo> I did not know there was a TV channel called Dave.
20:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Over here we mostly call it "Top Gear and QI Channel"
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20:53:48 <olsner> QI is nice
20:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Dave certainly thinks so.
20:54:52 <Sgeo> What's with the different H?
20:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Are you at series 3? They changed a lot of stuff round for series 3.
20:57:13 <Phantom_Hoover> They changed everything again for 6, and again during 8 (or so I hear).
20:57:35 <Sgeo> Ah
20:57:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, QI?
20:57:46 <Vorpal> what does that stand for
20:57:52 <Sgeo> Quite Interesting
20:58:04 <Vorpal> ah *googles*
20:58:24 <Phantom_Hoover> What it stands for is irrelevant; it's a comedy quiz show.
20:58:41 <olsner> you could've googled using just QI, you know
21:00:55 <Vorpal> olsner, that gave me stuff about taoism in all the top ten hits
21:01:18 <Vorpal> actually wait. the tenth is for some sort of software thingy
21:01:53 <olsner> maybe you used swedish derp-google?
21:02:23 <Vorpal> hm, nope
21:02:31 <Vorpal> says google.com and everything is in English
21:03:06 <olsner> for me, hits related to the tv show are number 1, 2, 5, 6 plus three video hits
21:03:07 <Vorpal> I am logged into gmail, but since I don't usually google taoism or religion I'm not sure why it would customise it like that
21:03:32 <olsner> based on context you should be able to figure out that it was a tv show, and there are no other tv shows with that name afaik
21:04:08 <olsner> otoh, maybe google customized the hits for me, since I happen to be logged in on gmail
21:05:13 <oerjan> i have no google account and i got the tv show on norwegian google
21:08:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <Vorpal> says google.com and everything is in English
21:08:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Google doesn't work that way, and I'm astonished you don't know that.
21:11:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Man, 'seagull' refers to a lot of different birds.
21:11:40 <oerjan> stormåse, gråmåse, svartbak...
21:12:04 <oerjan> oops, stormåse = svartbak
21:12:41 <olsner> a bird is a bird is a bird
21:12:53 <oerjan> wait, actually stormåse can mean _both_ the others
21:17:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not even sure what the seagulls common in Edinburgh are.
21:17:33 * oerjan looks at the swedish wikipedia and wonders what the difference between mås and trut is...
21:17:42 <olsner> oerjan: they're both birds
21:18:04 <olsner> trut is also slang for mouth
21:18:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The closest I can find on Wikipedia is the herring gull, but ISTR hearing or reading that it's closely related but not the same.
21:18:15 <oerjan> olsner: i said _difference_. they're both må[sk]e in norwegian
21:18:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, they are just herring gulls.
21:18:54 <olsner> why not move all bird questions to #esoteric-birds? :)
21:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> (One of the comedians in the Fringe once joked that Edinburgh seagulls are abnormally big and I've been trying to confirm this ever since.)
21:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, why do you not like bird talk,
21:19:55 <Vorpal> olsner, what about fiskmås?
21:20:40 <olsner> mostly it's that I don't know anything about birds :)
21:20:43 <Vorpal> hm that is "common gull"
21:20:45 <Vorpal> in English
21:20:46 <Vorpal> oh well
21:21:23 <Vorpal> and common gull is apparently also a name for a type of butterfly.
21:21:23 <Vorpal> wow
21:22:15 <oerjan> "Arterna inom denna kategori anlägger adult dräkt efter drygt tre år efter det att dom kläcks, dvs på deras fjärde levnadsår. Inom denna kategori finns alla trutarna."
21:23:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm I think that must be a typo
21:23:16 <Vorpal> because that makes no sense
21:23:42 <olsner> is that from the swedish wikipedia?
21:23:49 <oerjan> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A5sar_och_trutar
21:24:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, actually it is accurate, första året : 0-1, andra året, 1-2, ..., fjärde året: 3-4
21:25:03 <oerjan> it's the only mention i can find distinguishing them... they're very mixed up in the genus classification :P
21:25:40 <olsner> oh, apparently adult is an actual ornithological term, and not just a very bad translation from english
21:25:54 <oerjan> oh wait "Generellt kan man säga att de mindre arterna kallas måsar och de större trutar"
21:26:05 <oerjan> olsner: i was wondering about that too :P
21:26:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, with a few exceptions?
21:26:18 <nortti> someone give me programming project. I'm bore
21:26:39 <Vorpal> nortti, implement a JIT compiler for befunge-98 using LLVM before fizzie gets back working on his again
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21:27:08 <Vorpal> nortti, what about that?
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21:27:19 <nortti> umh. something not involving LLVM would be nice
21:27:36 <Vorpal> nortti, implement a JIT compiler for befunge-98 using by generating your own machine code before fizzie gets back working on his again
21:28:03 <Vorpal> nortti, does that sound good to you?
21:28:16 <nortti> that sounds better. what architecture?
21:28:30 <Vorpal> nortti, which ones do you have access to?
21:28:41 <Vorpal> nortti, 32-bit x86 I presume, anything else?
21:28:44 <nortti> x86, m68k, 6502
21:28:48 <Vorpal> nortti, x86
21:28:53 <Vorpal> I don't have access to the other ones
21:29:01 <nortti> 16 bit or 32 bit?
21:29:10 <Vorpal> nortti, 32-bit, running under linux
21:29:22 <Vorpal> nortti, as a user space program
21:29:24 <nortti> why not netbsd :P
21:29:26 <Vorpal> not a kernel module
21:29:47 <Vorpal> nortti, okay, if it runs with minimal modifications on multiple *nix for 32-bit x86
21:29:49 <nortti> why not as self hosted OS?
21:30:04 <Vorpal> I mean, the differences aren't that large, are they?
21:30:19 <nortti> yes. and netbsd supports linux abi
21:30:46 <Vorpal> nortti, because... hm. Because it is more useful to a larger group of people as an user space program
21:31:04 <Vorpal> I would assume a tracing JIT would be the way to go
21:31:10 <Vorpal> that is what fizzie did at least
21:31:59 <Vorpal> brb
21:42:45 <Vorpal> back, and good night
21:43:51 <nortti> ok. currently me thinks that compiling 1 row column at a time would be easier
21:43:57 <nortti> +or
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22:06:37 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, is Holly completely gone?
22:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Um, if you mean man-Holly then yes.
22:09:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I think he comes back in series 8 but see every other time I've mentioned series 8.
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22:21:56 <Sgeo> "Holograms don't produce heat and neither do androids"
22:22:12 <Sgeo> I know it's roughly the opposite of hard science fiction but that still bothers me
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22:22:41 <nortti> mksh ftw
22:22:56 <nortti> only shell better than busybox ash
22:23:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Did you not like zsh :(
22:23:50 <nortti> not really
22:24:18 <nortti> too much pain to configure
22:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes but the pain turns to pleasure!
22:26:17 <nortti> well it seemed kinda like emacs. it does multiple things and is pain to configure to work the way you want it to
22:27:34 <nortti> heirloom shell is bit limeted but otherwise nice
22:28:06 <nortti> (I kinda like tab completition)
22:32:09 <nortti> I know that there are people who love zsh but there are also people who love emacs so yeah
22:32:54 <nortti> oh and sash is otherwise nice but lacks tab completition
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22:39:55 <nortti> sash -aqp $USER@$HOST"$ " makes trying to unfuck your system so much more pleasant
22:40:07 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, accidentally saw a series 8 ending spoiler
22:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo you should have picked up by now that the show has minimal continuity.
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22:51:12 <ion> Which show?
22:58:43 <kallisti> :t show
22:58:44 <lambdabot> forall a. (Show a) => a -> String
23:03:08 <zzo38> Is that the show you mean?
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2012-07-11
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01:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> kwertii, you probably want to fix your client and/or connection.
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01:34:02 <Gregor> "Reässuring" with a diaeresis mark, yes/yes?
01:38:04 <oerjan> reälly
01:39:23 <Gregor> How the heck do you pronounce "really" X-D
01:40:58 <shachaf> Gregor: yes
01:41:21 <shachaf> Gregor: Would you spell "subordinate" with one?
01:49:28 <oerjan> Gregor: straïght forward, of coürse
01:50:01 <Gregor> shachaf: There's no diaeresis in subordinate... heck, there aren't even two vowels in a row, so there's not even the possibility of a diaeresis.
01:50:21 <shachaf> I think of a diaeresis on a vowel as meaning something like a glottal stop.
01:50:33 <Gregor> ... well, then you think of it wrong...
01:51:23 <shachaf> True, it's not quite a glottal stop.
01:51:28 <shachaf> But it's something pretty close...
01:51:35 <pikhq_> By which you mean "not even slightly".
01:51:42 <oerjan> use diäereses however yoü want, yoü have poetic license
01:51:58 <Gregor> oerjan: Oh you, not using a diaeresis mark on the ONLY diaeresis in that sentence.
01:52:17 <shachaf> How would you differentiate "su-bor-din" with "sub-or-din"?
01:52:25 <shachaf> I guess that's not what a diaeresis is.
01:52:35 <Gregor> Indeed 'tisn't.
01:52:47 <pikhq_> If it were a glottal stop, it'd parse as "t" in many accents.
01:52:51 <oerjan> Gregor: actually i'm not sure aboüt the first ä
01:53:09 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, that one's a bit... odd.
01:53:29 <Gregor> Di-aeresis? Certainly it's not diägram, is it?
01:53:34 <shachaf> pikhq_: Glottal stops have nothing to do with 't's.
01:54:01 <shachaf> There are some accents that pronounce 't' as glottal stop in some words, but those aren't that common, I think.
01:54:09 <Gregor> Virtually every accent.
01:54:22 <shachaf> You people must mean a different thing than I do by "glottal stop".
01:54:24 <Gregor> Say "fatten"
01:54:37 <shachaf> OK?
01:54:44 <shachaf> No glottal stop there.
01:54:56 <pikhq_> I'm referring to IPA ʔ
01:54:57 <Gregor> I don't know where you're from, but if it's in the Americas, then you're lying or don't know what a glottal stop is.
01:55:07 <pikhq_> i.e. "glottal stop".
01:55:29 <shachaf> "It is called the glottal stop because the technical term for the gap between the vocal folds, which is closed up in the production of this sound, is the glottis."
01:55:29 <oerjan> Gregor: actually i'm surprised to see diäeresis seems to have the second syllable stressed, i thoüght it was the third
01:55:39 <shachaf> I don't think you're closing your glottis when you say "fatten".
01:56:08 <Gregor> shachaf: You are if you're pronouncing it with a General American accent.
01:57:31 <shachaf> Gregor: I'm thinking of the Hebrew letter "aleph".
01:57:50 <oerjan> possibly "fatten" has two articulation points for the tt?
01:57:53 <pikhq_> You also pronounce 't' glottally with many words in UK English, though which ones get done that way are different.
01:58:20 <shachaf> Or the Hangul "ㅇ".
01:58:24 <shachaf> (I think?)
01:58:54 <pikhq_> shachaf: "In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the letter either represents a glottal stop ([ʔ]) or indicates a hiatus (the separation of two adjacent vowels into distinct syllables with no intervening consonant)."
01:59:07 <pikhq_> So, apparently Hebrew aleph is glottal stop and diaresis.
01:59:10 <shachaf> pikhq_: Right, that's just people slurring it together.
01:59:21 <shachaf> If you asked them to be all formal about it they'd probably pronounce the glottal stop.
01:59:31 <pikhq_> The two are different phenomena in English.
01:59:43 <shachaf> OK.
02:01:42 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_consonant
02:05:21 <pikhq_> oerjan: It's more that US English has gained a tendency to turn 't' into a glottal stop when certain vowels are between it and 'n'.
02:09:02 <oerjan> well yeah, i just wondered if there were intermediate cases
02:09:29 <zzo38> I have made five .NSF musics, although all of them are covers so far.
02:09:50 <zzo38> (One of them is cover of some music that originally had no harmony, so I added some.)
02:18:37 <zzo38> Use of channels (and order of writing): prelude.mml=AB winter.mml=ABC cv_bsnes.mml=ABCD wizardry.mml=ABDMN cvheven.mml=DGHIJKL
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02:27:09 <kallisti> isn't a glottal stop just like...
02:27:13 <kallisti> a rough pause.
02:27:23 <kallisti> where you close off your vocal tract.
02:28:06 <kallisti> then yeah, we do that with our t's
02:28:09 <kallisti> because we're lazy.
02:28:21 <kallisti> either that or make a "d" sound.
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03:01:49 <zzo38> Gregor: Have you written music recently? What software did you use?
03:02:40 <pikhq_> kallisti: That is a glottal stop, yes.
03:02:51 <pikhq_> kallisti: It's where you stop and close the glottis.
03:06:00 <zzo38> madbr: Are you the guy who told me before if you have made the .NSF musics?
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03:14:08 <madbr> yes
03:15:16 <zzo38> I like all of them (they are the ones I like best) except for the one with smoke weed
03:15:37 <zzo38> I have written five .NSF musics so far although these five all of them covers, so far.
03:16:20 <zzo38> One was from a ZZT game, and I have added the harmony instead of having the melody only
03:16:52 <zzo38> Today I have made the Caverns of Zeux heaven music using DGHIJKL channels
03:17:18 <zzo38> (D=2A03 noise channel, GHIJKL=VRC7 channel)
03:19:58 <madbr> you use mml?
03:20:04 <zzo38> This is first time I have used VRC7 channel.
03:20:07 <zzo38> madbr: Yes.
03:21:04 <zzo38> Do you not use MML? Well, some people like it and others hate it, use whatever you prefer
03:21:16 <madbr> I use impulse tracker + converters :D
03:21:29 <madbr> most other tracker dudes have moved to famitracker though
03:21:53 <zzo38> Well, I suppose IT+convert can work too if you want.
03:22:00 <zzo38> My brother uses FamiTracker.
03:22:30 <zzo38> I am in the process of writing a program called ITMCK.
03:25:14 <madbr> what does that do? :D
03:26:17 <zzo38> It is a program to make a .IT file.
03:26:34 <zzo38> http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git
03:26:46 <madbr> from mck?
03:27:21 * kallisti has been contemplating the design of a graphical DSP system for Haskell
03:27:43 <kallisti> similar in concept to things like MAX/MSP and pure-data
03:27:44 <zzo38> madbr: It is the program to compile MML to .IT
03:28:14 <madbr> :O
03:28:59 <zzo38> kallisti: I have been thinking of use of Penrose tensor diagrams to represent morphisms in tensor categories satisfying certain additional laws (certain things can be done in the diagram depending on what features the category has, too)
03:30:21 <zzo38> madbr: Well, Impulse Tracker is DOS only and I don't like programs like Modplug Tracker and so on to write music either, so I want to write the new one which is better. For now looking at source-codes and documentation you might try to understand a few things. Do you like the formatting of the documentation so far?
03:31:25 <madbr> ther's still schism tracker and chibi tracker
03:31:42 <zzo38> madbr: Yes I know about those ones too; I prefer MML
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03:32:43 <kallisti> zzo38: does this have anything to do with DSP?
03:33:07 <zzo38> kallisti: Maybe.
03:33:37 <kallisti> this might be a weird question
03:33:38 <kallisti> but
03:33:45 <kallisti> does anyone have a identity from the UK I can borrow?
03:34:04 <kallisti> OVH is giving out free servers with shit specs for people in the UK.
03:34:53 <zzo38> ITMCK even support customize scale (which is something OpenMPT supports but only for its own format), and customize temperament (also something OpenMPT supports for its own format; ITMCK emulate it by making multiple sample headings with varying C5speed)
03:34:55 <kallisti> oh looks like they're free ones in the US too
03:35:06 <zzo38> kallisti: I have used PureData.
03:35:30 <kallisti> zzo38: I found it a neat concept. but anything marginally complex becomes slow and a mass of lines and boxes.
03:35:37 <kallisti> which is why it would be nice to use Haskell instead of "subpatches"
03:35:44 <kallisti> but also have subpatches as well
03:35:55 <zzo38> OK
03:36:00 <zzo38> If that is what you like.
03:37:39 <zzo38> I believe you can have tensor diagrams for Haskell's (->) category including lines crossing
03:38:19 <zzo38> I think one law that must be required to make the tensor diagrams for a category would be that (***) and (.) abide (a term I read in some of Edward Kmett's messages)
03:38:44 <zzo38> Although that isn't enough to allow the lines to cross
03:42:38 <madbr> I like how sequencers like Reaper organize stuff in tracks
03:42:58 <zzo38> How do you mean?
03:42:58 <madbr> can still do any graph but they're a lot easier to edit
03:43:13 <madbr> Reaper works something like this:
03:43:16 <madbr> you add tracks
03:43:22 <madbr> each track has a stack of effects
03:43:27 <madbr> applied serially
03:44:16 <madbr> you can also do signal sends from one track's output to another track's input
03:44:31 <madbr> and you can also add folder tracks that contain other tracks
03:44:50 <madbr> if you put effects on the folder track, they are applied after mixing all the tracks in the folder
03:45:12 <madbr> plus you can add as many channels as you want to any track
03:45:31 <madbr> and configure your effects to use this or that channel for processing
03:45:44 <madbr> between all of that you can do everything
03:46:08 <zzo38> OK
03:48:35 <madbr> common cases (layering a bunch of synth VSTs then putting on a ton of effects) are easy to do :D
03:52:57 <zzo38> kallisti: Maybe you could represent them as a tensor category with two prime objects
03:59:36 <madbr> tensor? prime objects?? :o
04:02:54 <zzo38> Do you know about category theory?
04:03:10 <zzo38> (I don't think "prime objects" is the standard term but I don't know if there is any so I use this)
04:05:42 <madbr> nope
04:06:37 <madbr> I'm more of a c++ guy tbh, haven't gotten into the haskell cult yet :D
04:07:46 <pikhq> Man, grow some taste. :P
04:08:34 <madbr> language I've probably done the second most of is ARM assembly :D
04:10:50 <madbr> a pretty nice architecture
04:19:21 <zzo38> You don't have to program in Haskell to know category theory, or vice versa.
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05:21:26 <madbr> I'm toying with the idea of a processor with some kind of "trace" mode for fast parallelized execution of high computation loops
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06:00:20 <zzo38> How would you expect it to work?
06:01:02 <madbr> take a loop that can be optimized
06:01:04 <madbr> ex:
06:01:35 <madbr> for(int i=0; i<nbSample; i++, mVol += mRamp, mPos += mFreq)
06:01:35 <madbr> mix[i] += ((sample[mPos>>16] + (((sample[(mPos>>16)+1] - sample[mPos>>16])*(mPos&0xffff))>>16))*mVol) >> 16;
06:01:47 <madbr> (that's linear interpolated sample mixing)
06:04:10 <madbr> after the first pass of compilation, it looks something like this:
06:04:24 <madbr> i = 0
06:04:24 <madbr> if i>=nbSamples :done
06:04:24 <madbr> :loop
06:04:24 <madbr> t1 = [mix + i*4]
06:04:24 <madbr> t2 = mPos >> 16
06:04:25 <madbr> t3 = s16[sample + t2*2]
06:04:25 <madbr> t4 = t2 + 1
06:04:26 <madbr> t5 = s16[sample + t4*2]
06:04:26 <madbr> t6 = t5 - t3
06:04:32 <madbr> t7 = mPos & 0xffff
06:04:32 <madbr> t8 = t6 * t7
06:04:32 <madbr> t9 = t8 >> 16
06:04:32 <madbr> t10 = t3 + t9
06:04:32 <madbr> t11 = t10 * mVol
06:04:33 <madbr> t12 = t11 >> 16
06:04:33 <madbr> t13 = t1 + t12
06:04:34 <madbr> [mix + i*4] = t13
06:04:34 <madbr> t14 = mVol + mRamp
06:04:35 <madbr> $mVol = t14
06:04:44 <madbr> t15 = mPos + mFreq
06:04:44 <madbr> $mPos = t15
06:04:44 <madbr> t16 = i + 1
06:04:44 <madbr> $i = t16
06:04:44 <madbr> if $i>=nbSamples :loop
06:04:45 <madbr> :done
06:05:27 <madbr> (using the model where every calculation or variable write is to a new variable)
06:06:20 <zzo38> LLVM does something like that, I think. And I can understand how you can parallelize it when the order is not relevant.
06:07:36 <madbr> well, essentially you have to figure out when each loop iteration is independent
06:07:53 <madbr> if that happens you are in business
06:08:22 <madbr> then you can compile it more or less directly to a series of RISC operations
06:08:56 <madbr> the idea is that instead of having one execution unit and asign it a different operation on every cycle
06:09:34 <madbr> have a bunch of execution units and assign each operation to a new different unit
06:10:08 <madbr> so first operation t1 = [mix + i*4] gets assigned to first unit
06:10:21 <madbr> t2 = mPos >> 16 gets assigned to second unit
06:10:24 <madbr> etc
06:11:05 <madbr> and keep the same unit executing the same op over and over for each successive cycle
06:15:30 <zzo38> Yes I can understand that.
06:17:00 <madbr> if you can autounroll the increments you can do 2 or 4 loops per cycle
06:17:04 <madbr> that's the goal
06:25:41 <zzo38> OK
06:27:36 <soundnfury> It sounds like you've basically reinvented VLIW
06:28:04 <madbr> yeah
06:28:24 <madbr> except VLIW is a bunch of exploding designs that never took off :D
06:28:48 <soundnfury> and you think yours will be any different?
06:29:05 <soundnfury> :p
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06:30:00 <madbr> trying to find a way to avoid the "intel failed design" effect :D
06:30:16 <soundnfury> you mean the itanic disaster? ;)
06:31:34 <madbr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860
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06:32:37 <madbr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i960 (actually a moderate success I guess)
06:33:11 <madbr> And yes Itanic :D
06:34:58 <madbr> though Itanic didn't really have all that many execution units
06:35:01 <madbr> 2 ALUs?
06:40:07 <soundnfury> what's really needed, because compile-time scheduling is impossible in principle to get right, is a way for the compiled binary to have, not lists, but DAGs of instructions
06:40:30 <soundnfury> so that the compiler can tell the scheduler /precisely/ what its ordering constraints are
06:41:10 <soundnfury> then the chip can use as much parallelism as the DAG will allow (if it has enough units). But it would require a more complex scheduler
06:41:30 <soundnfury> though less complex than the ones on modern CISC chips that try to work out for themselves what the constraints are :S
06:42:56 <madbr> DAG?
06:43:02 <soundnfury> directed acyclic graph
06:43:11 <madbr> hm
06:43:39 <madbr> you could have a layer based approach
06:43:57 <madbr> have the compiler figure out all the first layer instructions in a loop
06:44:11 <madbr> (the ones that can be computed on first cycle)
06:44:18 <madbr> then do layer 2, 3 etc
06:44:27 <madbr> but then that doesn't deal with variable latency
06:44:58 <soundnfury> the compiler /can't/ figure out the scheduling, precisely because of variable latency
06:46:03 <madbr> two cases here would be multiply, and memory loads
06:46:03 <soundnfury> it has to effectively communicate a set of ordering constraints; the minimal such is the DAG, the maximal such is a list of single instructions to be executed serially (the 'classic' architecture, from the olden days)
06:46:33 <madbr> multiply is constant but still relatively long and changes from cpu generation to cpu generation
06:46:50 <madbr> (can go up - see early pentium II)
06:47:32 <madbr> memory load is effectively unpredictable
06:47:38 <soundnfury> indeed
06:51:25 <madbr> Still, I do math heavy code and I'm slightly disappointed at the throughputs in very recent cpus :D
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06:56:28 <madbr> it feels like the designs are geared to database software and other branch/access heavy shit
06:56:32 <madbr> web
06:56:37 <madbr> that kind of crap
06:57:14 <soundnfury> well, if you're doing anything both math heavy and parallelisable, get some FPGAs
06:57:32 <madbr> I do sound
06:57:43 <madbr> DSPs are dead (cpus are faster)
06:58:14 <madbr> and nobody uses FPGAs, application specific hardware is mostly dead for sound
06:58:21 <soundnfury> well it shouldn't be
06:59:17 <madbr> there are some hardware DSP cards for the pro market
06:59:22 <madbr> they are essentially dongles
07:00:26 <fizzie> There's a DSP core in my phone, they can't be dead.
07:00:53 <fizzie> As for math-heavy and parallelisable code, doesn't everyone do that kind of stuff on GPUs nowadays?
07:01:06 <madbr> for doing FFT on phone signals DSPs makes sense
07:01:09 <madbr> not for sound
07:01:16 <madbr> GPUs have too high latency
07:01:24 <madbr> and not enough flexible execution
07:01:36 <madbr> (no feedback, bastards)
07:01:43 <fizzie> The phone uses the DSP for e.g. hardware-accelerated MP3 decoding. (And some video formats.)
07:01:56 <madbr> makes sense on old phones
07:02:14 <madbr> for recent IPhones I'm not sure why they still use the DSP
07:02:21 <madbr> probably power conservation
07:02:43 <fizzie> It's not exactly old. And I think TI's to-be-released OMAP5 platform still includes a general-purpose DSP core, despite them having added all kinds of special-purpose video/media accelerator things.
07:02:50 <madbr> but it makes no sense to use the DSP in game code
07:03:45 <madbr> too platform specific and you rarely have any control over it
07:04:12 <madbr> so of course the firmware sound mixer does something wrong and you have to reimplement it all in software anyways
07:04:56 <fizzie> Yes, well, that much is of course true. (Related example: the DSP-accelerated JPG encoder used by the phone's camera app has a hardcoded JPG quality level; if you want to change it, it needs to fall back to the CPU implementation.)
07:05:31 <madbr> good luck using the iphone's mp3 decode for game music
07:06:31 <madbr> you're never going to have a sample accurate loop or crossfade
07:07:20 <madbr> and once a phone call plus an alarm clock happen chances are apple's media server gets confused and crashed
07:11:03 <fizzie> There was a guy doing general sound recognition (environmental events; door knocking and fire alarms and phone ringing and things like that; it was for a box they sell to hotels that they can have deaf-proof houses without having to wire up a system with indicator lights to all those things) on FPGAs, he gave a talk at our place.
07:11:57 <madbr> yeah that's a different market
07:12:25 <fizzie> And our DSP course had a couple of http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/index.shtml 's as platforms, I've always wondered whether many people have actually bought that thing to do music.
07:12:31 <madbr> and I guess ARM systems on a chip aren't quite monstruously fast/low power enough for that yet
07:12:39 <madbr> nobody has a chameleon :D
07:12:48 <fizzie> No news since 2006.
07:13:08 <madbr> exactly
07:13:17 <madbr> same thing happened to creamware
07:13:50 <madbr> even hardware synths are losing their shine
07:16:30 <madbr> 3d cards are doing ok but that's in part because CPUs are terrible at bilinear
07:16:52 <madbr> and gfx doesn't have too much pixel-to-pixel dependency
07:21:49 <fizzie> Those do get used for general-purpose calculations too a lot, though. Our cluster recently acquired 8 nodes with 2x Tesla M2090 cards, and from what I hear with something like MATLAB+GPUmat you can run your giant matrix multiplications very easily very fast on those. (That's of course all about throughput, not about latency.)
07:24:56 <madbr> yeah
07:25:15 <madbr> sound uses a lot of recursive filters, that's the catch with that one in particular
07:25:28 <madbr> sample to sample latency
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07:57:45 <itidus21> well i think that when presented with a finite choice of processors, then it is possible to eventually determine which is the best for your type of work
08:00:54 <itidus21> disregard
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10:12:57 <nortti> "This is true in all countries that I know except for North Korea, Iran and United Kingdom"
10:19:02 <itidus21> i like neal stephenson.. because he is making a realistic sword fighting sim via kickstarter crowdsourcing, but i had only vaguely heard of him before
10:19:51 <itidus21> but on wikipedia he seems really cool
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10:35:54 <soundnfury> that's the same neal stephenson who wrote In The Beginning Was The Command Line, right?
10:56:00 <itidus21> ya
10:56:07 <itidus21> according to wikipedia
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12:05:50 <sunshinehappy> how about an anarchist programming language: Absolutely no control structures
12:06:08 <nortti> :P
12:09:17 <itidus21> i have an idea for a programming language
12:09:29 <itidus21> related to that
12:10:31 <itidus21> get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program
12:10:46 <itidus21> and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output
12:11:05 <itidus21> and, optionally prompting you for input
12:12:02 <itidus21> x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation
12:12:10 <itidus21> :P
12:12:13 <fizzie> It sounds somewhat similar to IRP.
12:12:31 <fizzie> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP)
12:12:40 <nortti> speaking of which
12:14:49 <itidus21> ahh IRP is better
12:15:31 <itidus21> hmm
12:15:46 <itidus21> 99 bottles fits the description pretty close though
12:17:11 <itidus21> it's a really strange feeling to say:
12:17:52 <itidus21> i have an idea for a programming language; related to that; get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program; and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output; and, optionally prompting you for input; x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation
12:18:28 <itidus21> and get a reply like "It sounds similar to an existant esolang"
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12:36:44 <soundnfury> sunshinehappy: Eniuq doesn't have control structures (if by that you mean flow control)
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12:58:14 <mroman> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1801473/japanese-ascii-code
12:58:17 <mroman> what the fuck...?
12:59:19 <nortti> ...
13:00:45 <mroman> I thought I heard pretty much every dumb question related to programming.
13:01:00 <mroman> but that just tops everything I've ever seen.
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13:06:49 <nortti> I am getting a small problem with my minidistro. I have put "nameserver 8.8.8.8" in /etc/resolv.conf but it still only finds host when I use ip address instead of address
13:07:11 <nortti> s/of address/url/
13:08:25 <nortti> +of
13:08:58 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, why, because they confused ASCII with character code?
13:09:35 <Lumpio-> >ASCII
13:20:57 <Vorpal> nortti, I guess dns lookup is broken?
13:24:49 <Vorpal> nortti, try strace on nslookup google.com or something?
13:25:12 <nortti> well I don't have strace or nslookup
13:25:19 <Vorpal> host then?
13:25:25 <Vorpal> some command line dns resolver
13:25:51 <nortti> no. unless toybox or sash includes one of those
13:25:53 <Vorpal> anyway strace is useful for debugging, if you are trying to keep the distro as small as possible just remove strace when you are done creating the thing
13:26:52 <Vorpal> nortti, or just write a simple C program that tries to look up a hostname and run that under gdb
13:27:12 <nortti> well I don't have gdb.
13:27:17 <Lumpio-> ...you tink he has gdb?
13:27:19 <Lumpio-> +h
13:27:20 <Vorpal> nortti, whatever debugger you have then?
13:27:29 <Lumpio-> Having a debugger would make it too easy!
13:27:38 <Lumpio-> People didn't have debuggers as advanced as gdb back in teh day!
13:27:38 <nortti> I have no debugger on that distro
13:28:05 <nortti> also I mostöy still use so called printf debugging
13:28:05 <Vorpal> so add one then
13:28:47 <Vorpal> anyway strace is likely better here, since you want to see what the libc does
13:29:13 <nortti> yeah. I am trying to integrate it to build system
13:30:41 <Vorpal> nortti, what is the intended use case for this distro?
13:31:25 <nortti> be as small as possible
13:31:34 <Vorpal> nortti, why? Embedded?
13:31:48 <nortti> just for fun
13:31:53 <Vorpal> ah
13:32:26 <itidus21> zack said ganbatte
13:32:39 <itidus21> i am proud of my minimal knowlege of japanese..
13:32:41 <nortti> also building userland binaries that don't depend on dynamic libraries.
13:32:54 <Vorpal> nortti, statically linked
13:32:55 <Vorpal> sure
13:33:01 <Vorpal> strace just traces system calls
13:33:05 <Vorpal> not library calls
13:33:06 <nortti> ok
13:33:24 <Vorpal> nortti, afaik strace uses ptrace to do it (just like gdb)
13:33:29 <Vorpal> so that should work fine
13:34:40 <itidus21> the funny thing to me about acronyms like ASCII and ANSI is the use of the term america to refer to the united states
13:35:04 <Vorpal> US is very self-centred
13:35:12 <nortti> lzma doesn't want to extract strace-4.7.tar.xz
13:35:19 <Vorpal> nortti, xz != lzma
13:35:28 <Vorpal> xz is like lzma version 2
13:35:33 <Vorpal> use the xzdec command
13:35:43 <Vorpal> (or xz -d iirc)
13:35:55 <itidus21> although ASCII might be representative of all of north and south america, somehow, i doubt it :D
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13:36:28 <Vorpal> itidus21, they all like to call things "national", like "national institute of whatever"
13:36:37 <itidus21> lol
13:36:49 <Vorpal> in the rest of the world we usually name those after the country instead
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13:37:29 <Vorpal> like "SMHI" (Sveriges Meteorologiska och Hydrologiska Institut). Translates to Sweden's Meteorological and Hydrological Institute
13:37:42 <soundnfury> Vorpal: we in the UK do something similar; "Royal Whatever" almost always means British
13:37:46 <Vorpal> hm true
13:37:52 <itidus21> i quite enjoy seth uh.. -strains- mcfarlane cartoons about usa
13:38:59 <itidus21> with the sun in the sky and a smile on my face, something something salute to the american race
13:39:16 <Vorpal> which race is that?
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13:39:29 <Vorpal> the native inidians?
13:39:50 <itidus21> ahh here it is
13:39:55 <itidus21> "I got a feeling that it's gonna be a wonderful day! The sun in the sky has a smile on his face! And he's shinin' a salute to the American race!"
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13:40:37 <Vorpal> itidus21, presumably that refers to the native people of the US
13:40:46 <itidus21> i have no idea
13:40:59 <itidus21> its very tongue in cheek show
13:41:02 <Vorpal> and doesn't include the natives of Canada and so on
13:44:41 <itidus21> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cS18c0GVk
13:44:56 <itidus21> its worth it to understand what im saying.. :D
13:45:13 <itidus21> sound is terrible but best version of the video i could find
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13:48:20 <Vorpal> bbiab
13:51:43 <mroman> @dict urban bbiab
13:51:44 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:51:44 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:51:44 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:51:54 <mroman> @dict jargon bbiab
13:51:55 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:51:55 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:51:55 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:54:14 <itidus21> @google bbiab
13:54:15 <lambdabot> http://www.internetslang.com/BBIAB-meaning-definition.asp
13:54:16 <lambdabot> Title: What does BBIAB mean? - BBIAB Definition - Meaning of BBIAB - InternetSlang.com
13:54:28 <itidus21> close but no cigar
13:55:00 <itidus21> @dict
13:55:01 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:55:01 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:55:01 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:55:46 <itidus21> @dict all-dicts bbiab
13:55:47 <lambdabot> Supported dictionary-lookup commands:
13:55:47 <lambdabot> all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02
13:55:47 <lambdabot> Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more.
13:55:56 <itidus21> @all-dicts bbiab
13:55:57 <lambdabot> *** "bbiab" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)"
13:55:57 <lambdabot> BBIAB
13:55:57 <lambdabot> [I'll] Be Back In A Bit (telecommunication, Usenet, IRC)
13:55:57 <lambdabot>
13:56:58 <mroman> urban dict says "the most annoying fucking abbreviation to look at. ever"
13:58:44 <mroman> @all-dicts cuui
13:58:44 <lambdabot> No match for "cuui".
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14:03:34 <nortti> rebuilding my distro after figuring out how to produce static strace
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14:07:35 <Vorpal> mroman, hi
14:07:37 <Vorpal> :P
14:07:51 <Vorpal> anyway I'm leaving quite soon.
14:08:08 <Vorpal> nortti, was static strace hard?
14:08:19 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway surely you could just build strace and add it to the distro?
14:08:34 <nortti> well I had to hand patch some config files
14:08:35 <Vorpal> rather than rebuilding the whole thing
14:08:38 <Vorpal> nortti, oh?
14:08:48 <Vorpal> what sort of config files
14:09:01 <nortti> debian/rules
14:09:07 <Vorpal> for strace or for something else?
14:09:13 <nortti> for strace
14:09:15 <Vorpal> anyway why are you using the debian build system
14:09:21 <Vorpal> LFS for the win ;P
14:09:48 <nortti> well it didn't add -static to CFLAGS otherwise
14:09:56 <Vorpal> seriously though, the debian build system is painfully over-complicated, with a large suite of different tools used to generate or edit those files
14:10:09 <nortti> uh,
14:10:16 <Vorpal> nortti, I mean ./configure CFLAGS="-static" or something like that
14:10:31 <nortti> sash doesn't seem to handle redirects very well
14:10:40 <Vorpal> redirects?
14:11:07 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway you might want to use ccache if you aren't already. Should help speeding up the compiling
14:11:32 <nortti> redirecting stdin, out and err
14:11:39 <Vorpal> ah...
14:11:45 <Vorpal> that is quite a bad shell then
14:11:50 <Vorpal> why not use ash?
14:11:55 <Vorpal> the busybox ash is quite good
14:12:14 <nortti> I know. it was my main shell until yesterday
14:12:41 <nortti> I am using sash until toysh becomes usable
14:12:41 <Vorpal> busybox as main shell must be painful
14:12:50 <nortti> why?
14:13:07 <nortti> it was very nice shell with tab completition and all
14:13:07 <Vorpal> well not the shell as such, but all the other busybox parts
14:13:14 <Vorpal> the busybox ps is quite limited for example iirc
14:13:31 <Vorpal> compared to the normal ps on linux
14:13:36 <nortti> not really. currently I use mix between busybox and toybox
14:14:01 <Vorpal> nortti, oh come on, compare busybox ps --help and the man page for the usual ps found on linux
14:14:10 <nortti> what is ccache by the way?
14:14:21 <nortti> Vorpal: I have done it
14:15:10 <Vorpal> nortti, ccache caches object files (you set a size limit, say 1 GB or so, for the disk cache). It can help reduce compile time when you compile the same source a lot
14:15:20 <Vorpal> like when you are working on a large project in C or C++
14:15:44 <nortti> oh
14:15:47 <Vorpal> nortti, it hashes the compiler flags and all resulting source file after the preprocessor
14:15:50 <Vorpal> iirc
14:16:12 <Vorpal> well anyway, it won't break stuff due to you changing CFLAGS or so
14:16:27 <Vorpal> I think you can confuse it by switching gcc version used though
14:17:03 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway it does slow down the initial compile slightly (due to the overhead of caching) but after that it helps a lot
14:17:47 <Vorpal> nortti, I don't know how much you keep rebuilding the same source, or how long that takes up
14:17:54 <Vorpal> s/up/you/
14:18:00 <Vorpal> (how did that typo happen?)
14:19:53 <Vorpal> nortti, btw just in case, make sure resolv.conf has a trailing newline. I'm not sure that file needs it, but I have seen crontab and what not break without trailing newlines
14:20:42 <Vorpal> also, bbl
14:20:57 <Vorpal> (will be back in several hours)
14:21:45 <nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III
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14:24:44 <nortti> Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P)
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14:26:40 <nortti> @tell Vorpal in case you missed these two 17:21 < nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 17:24 < nortti> Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P)
14:26:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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14:48:55 <oklopol> piuh
14:48:56 <oklopol> ytc
14:54:29 <boily> hi all!
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15:08:40 <Taneb> Hello!
15:20:32 <oklopol> hii
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15:28:34 <oklopol> hi z
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16:53:57 <nooga> looks like i've found new hobby
16:53:59 <nooga> http://www.unlambda.com/download/cadr/CADR4_schematic.pdf
16:56:12 <nortti> what is that. I'm too lazy to start up X server
16:56:59 <nooga> MIT lisp machine schematics
16:57:24 <nortti> ooh. you are working with one?
16:58:03 <nooga> noo
16:59:12 <nortti> you are creating emulator?
17:01:39 <nooga> i will bake this in a FPGA
17:02:18 <nortti> is the software available?
17:03:08 <nooga> i think so, since the guy who wrote emulator posted some screenshots ;D
17:04:03 <Sgeo> I'm slowly becoming British
17:04:06 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeou.
17:05:01 <nortti> what?
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17:05:08 -!- kwertii has joined.
17:05:11 <nooga> why?
17:05:24 <Sgeou> I'm addicted to Red Dwarf, A Bit of Fry and Laurie, QI, Doctor Who
17:06:12 <nooga> oh
17:06:45 <nooga> nortti: why don't you run X all the time?
17:07:07 <nortti> it slows down my computer too much and uses around 50% of my memory
17:07:37 <nooga> oh, they've called from the 90's, they want their machine back
17:07:52 <nortti> this machine is from 2000
17:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, we've had this conversation with him, you can stop.
17:08:02 <nooga> ok
17:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it may help to know that he found the computer in a dumpster.
17:08:26 <nooga> maybe try raspberry pi
17:08:42 <nooga> ooh
17:08:57 <nortti> well I'd have to buy new monitor, mouse, keyboard, hard drive...
17:09:14 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb).
17:09:43 <nortti> but yeah. I could consisder it if they get decent RISC OS 5 port running on it
17:10:20 <nooga> today i watched an aussie guy on youtube that got like truckload of HP workstations from a scrapyard
17:10:43 <nooga> quide decent computers actually
17:10:48 <nooga> with SATA and stuff
17:10:53 <nortti> nooga: but yeah. I'm on trouble with 90's and 80's wanting their computers back
17:11:27 <Sgeou> I used a computer from 2001 until maybe 2007
17:11:30 <nooga> build a beowulf cluster from them
17:11:35 <Sgeou> It was pain
17:11:37 <nortti> but my school is in trouble with 70's wanthing their reel to reel tape recorders back :P
17:11:56 <nortti> Sgeou: only 7 years?
17:13:16 <nooga> i've never had a computer with gaming class video card
17:13:25 <nortti> now I'm getting iBook g3 from 2001 for assembly summer 2012
17:13:46 <nooga> decent CPUs and RAM but no graphics ;<
17:14:20 <nooga> HoMM3 & TTD
17:14:21 <fizzie> The other laptop here is a G4 iBook from 2003 or thereabouts, and it's already being a bit of a problem, since it has OS X on it, and everyone's stopped supporting PPC.
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17:14:36 <nortti> fizzie: which version?
17:14:40 <fizzie> Firefox 3.x is the last Firefox that runs on OS X/PPC, I believe.
17:14:50 <nooga> geez
17:14:51 <fizzie> Version of OS X? 10.4.
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17:14:57 <nortti> fizzie: have you heard of TenFourFox
17:15:08 <fizzie> Yes, but I forget what the problem there was.
17:15:17 <nortti> fizzie: I used it when my iBook g4 worked
17:15:19 <nooga> i've got MacBook Pro, late 2011
17:15:56 <nortti> I've got Mac Classic, preforma 475 and dead iBook g4
17:16:37 <nortti> and now I'm getting iBook g3 dual usb with OS X 10.4
17:16:43 <nooga> OS X is nice but can be infuriating when it comes to some deeper hacking
17:16:55 <fizzie> I had one of these: http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml
17:17:02 <fizzie> (Then I sold it off.)
17:17:21 <nortti> fizzie: also you can try what I did and build almost complete netbsd system on top of darwin kernel
17:17:37 <nooga> what for?
17:17:57 <nortti> well netbsd is better supported
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17:18:23 <fizzie> It's not my laptop, so I can't. I do have one that's very similar, but I haven't used it in a while, since I have this other laptop from 2011.
17:18:30 <nooga> but why darwin?
17:18:36 <fizzie> It has some sort of a PPC Linux on it, though.
17:18:47 <nortti> nooga: because OS X
17:19:09 <fizzie> On the Performa I ran MkLinux, it was quite an experience too.
17:19:10 <nortti> fizzie: what you mean by very similar?
17:19:22 <nooga> i don't think there is any point in running darwin if you don't have the rest of the OS
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17:19:48 <nooga> there are some better kernels, i think
17:20:25 <fizzie> nortti: Another G4 iBook that's pretty much the same model, since it was bought not more than a month or two apart, and has slightly different specs.
17:20:56 <nortti> nooga: well what I had was netbsd running on top of darwin while also having tweaked os x running at the same time
17:21:45 <nooga> oh
17:22:27 <nortti> it was a pain to get to work initialy but when I got pkgsrc my life got a much easier
17:22:53 <nortti> also it fixed some braindeadness of OS X
17:22:56 <nooga> I have no time to hack
17:23:11 <nooga> ;<
17:24:02 <nortti> I think that if you don't want to hack you can install pkgsrc on OS X other ways
17:24:35 <nooga> i've got homebrew
17:25:39 <nortti> I originaly hand compiled everything
17:26:43 <nortti> getting mosaic-ck to work was one of the most satisfying moments
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17:30:26 <nortti> thinking about which is there easy way to run motif programs with framebuffer as output device
17:30:58 <fizzie> nortti: You are reminding me of a thing.
17:31:02 <fizzie> I will try to find the thing.
17:31:15 <nortti> what thing?
17:31:20 <fizzie> I will try to find it.
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17:31:32 <fizzie> Also Flash (or the lack of it) was the problem with TenFourFox.
17:31:49 <nortti> you could enable it on about:config
17:32:06 <nortti> or use flashvideoreplaces and qte and such
17:32:48 <fizzie> http://www.saunalambusplaza.net/peliplaza/kolumnit.php "Asensimpa taas Liinuksen", specifically this bit: "-- päätin asentaa sen autotallissa ilman valoja vanhaan Mäkintosh -koneeseen. Tuo kapistus onkin aina ollut onnettomana kohteena silloin kun kokeilunhaluni pääsee valloilleen, ja nytkin siinä oli pohjalla MacOS ja NetWare vitonen, jotka käynnistyvät yhtäaikaa."
17:32:54 <fizzie> That thing.
17:33:43 <fizzie> (Sorry about the language, for our few non-Finnish readers.)
17:33:56 <Gregor> They can go to #esoteric-en
17:33:59 <nooga> hyvaa paivaa
17:34:11 <nortti> fizzie: :P
17:34:33 <nortti> fizzie: I could imagine myself in that situation
17:35:19 <nortti> nooga: eikö sulla oo ääkkösiä sun näppiksessä?
17:35:48 <fizzie> They have lost the "Gormic the Insuranced" RPG parody article I remember the old Mikrotietokonepelit thing having, when they combined that and the "Saunalambus Plaza" thing.
17:36:01 <fizzie> Which is a shame.
17:36:31 <fizzie> It had a title something like "Viimeinkin naksahti", and it's about how he finally flips out after playing pen-and-paper RPGs for such a long time, and starts murdering people for reals.
17:37:10 <nortti> fizzie: the one on the top of the page is bit wtf
17:37:22 <fizzie> nortti: Yeah, it's new. Clearly the new things are a bit stupid.
17:37:28 <nooga> nortti: huh? :E
17:37:34 <fizzie> I think the same thing goes for the other subpages.
17:38:05 <fizzie> nooga: It's supposed to be "hyvää päivää", and that sounds very different than "hyvaa paivaa".
17:38:32 <nortti> nooga: it means: "don't you have å,ä and ö in your keyboard"
17:38:48 <nooga> i don't have ä when using terminal
17:38:57 <Lumpio-> Is that a dumb terminal from the 60s?
17:39:26 <nooga> well, it's Terminal.app and maybe it's dumb
17:39:35 <nooga> normally i'd hold 'a' key
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17:40:01 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, Terminal.app had problems with the "bright black" color.
17:40:14 <fizzie> The "it's just black" kind of problems.
17:40:18 <nortti> it did?
17:40:26 <fizzie> I may misremember.
17:40:32 <nortti> I never noticed that.
17:40:55 <fizzie> http://macosx.com/forums/unix-x11/21100-terminal-ansi-color-dark-grey.html agrees-
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17:42:13 <nooga> i like how i can make Terminal.app full screen
17:42:21 <fizzie> I remember seeing a binary patch kind of thing somewhere to make it work.
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17:43:01 <nooga> i keep tabs, it looks almost like plain old text mode and i can just scroll to my desktop using 3 fingers
17:45:25 <fizzie> I used urxvt and X11.app, though it wasn't terribly pleasant experience either.
17:45:41 <nortti> I used xterm and X11.app
17:45:53 <nortti> I liked it
17:46:26 <nooga> try Cathode
17:46:45 <fizzie> Well, it worked. But I vaguely recall having some keyboard difficulties. There was some confusion when it came to the OS X keymap and the X11 one. Anyway, moot point now.
17:47:30 <fizzie> Oh, so retro.
17:47:55 <nooga> hipsters everywhere :F
17:48:10 <fizzie> The Apple ][ screensaver in xscreensaver does some monitor emulation things too, and IIRC you can use it as a regular terminal emulator with the right command flags.
17:48:16 <fizzie> Or maybe it was some other of the hacks. But still.
17:48:44 <fizzie> "Apple2 – simulates an Apple II computer, showing a user entering a simple BASIC program and running it. When run from the command-line, it is a fully functional terminal emulator (as is Phosphor.)" yes it was like that.
17:48:53 <fizzie> It's probably not OpenGL-accelerated though.
17:50:19 <nooga> yeah
17:50:24 <nooga> its libphosphor
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18:04:38 <nooga> I feel need to design a language
18:07:10 <mroman> go on.
18:07:19 <mroman> Hopefully it's not a brainfuck derivative.
18:08:16 <nooga> i hate them
18:08:34 <nooga> rather something minimal and elegant
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18:12:15 <Sgeou> Hey, are there any Game of Life programs capable of seeding an infinite random grid?
18:12:31 <Sgeou> I think Life32's grid is infinite, but can it randomly seed it?
18:13:21 <fizzie> Sounds somewhat difficult.
18:15:58 -!- Sgeou has changed nick to Sgeo.
18:16:20 <fizzie> Even if you're only interested in a single cell, to know what happens to it in generation k you'd have to consider every place that can be reached from it at the speed of light in k ticks.
18:18:15 <nooga> try limiting the speed
18:18:35 <nooga> of information propagation in the world
18:18:52 <nooga> it gives funny effects like something that looks like doppler effect
18:18:55 <nooga> for gliders
18:19:34 <Sgeo> fizzie, didn't say it would be efficient
18:20:06 <Sgeo> nooga, hmm?
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18:50:47 * tswett ponders a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets.
18:51:28 <mroman> lisp?
18:51:34 <tswett> Seems simple enough. Say that (...) means the first thing within it applied to all of the rest of the things within it. I'm not sure what () would mean.
18:51:44 <tswett> Then [...] means all of the things within it, composed. [] is the identity function.
18:51:51 <mroman> hm.
18:52:48 <tswett> Lessee. (...) follows the rule that ((X)Y), where X and Y are strings of expressions, is equal to (XY).
18:53:16 <tswett> It follows that (()Y) should be equal to (Y). Thus, () should also be the identity function.
18:55:23 <tswett> Now, we'll want to be able to express the S and K combinators somehow.
18:56:18 <tswett> We might want to say that {abc...}x = ((ax)(bx)(cx)...). Then {} is KI, which doesn't seem that useful.
18:57:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:58:28 <tswett> Then, of course, {ab} is Sab.
18:58:31 <Taneb> Hello!
18:58:38 <tswett> Hi, Taneb.
18:58:46 <Taneb> Quick context?
18:59:03 <tswett> I'm pondering a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets.
18:59:49 <Taneb> Souns cool
18:59:59 <Taneb> *t
19:00:03 <Taneb> s/t/d/
19:00:05 <Gregor> It'd be more fun if it was a language where programs consist solely of sets of UNmatched brackets.
19:00:21 <tswett> Tal vez.
19:00:30 <Gregor> "<Taneb> Sounds coot"
19:02:06 <tswett> ("Tal vez" is Hebrew for "fuck off".)
19:07:46 <Taneb> Does anyone know if Netflix and Spotify have linux clients?
19:08:21 -!- sirdancealot has joined.
19:08:49 <Taneb> `welcome sirdancealot
19:08:59 <HackEgo> sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:08:59 <sirdancealot> ohai
19:09:07 <sirdancealot> :D
19:09:35 <tswett> `welcome sirdancealot
19:09:39 <HackEgo> sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:09:50 <tswett> We want you to feel as welcome as possible.
19:09:55 <Taneb> `welcome tswett
19:09:57 <sirdancealot> halp, theyre testing their bot on me
19:09:58 <HackEgo> tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:10:11 <Taneb> (how's tswett pronounced? T-Sweat?"
19:10:15 <tswett> Taneb: thank you! <3
19:10:21 <tswett> And yes, that's exactly how you pronounce it.
19:10:24 <Taneb> :)
19:11:11 <tswett> My name is also the name of a famous moirallegiance.
19:11:22 <fizzie> If "they" were testing the bot, they'd use some of those weirdly capitulated or wide versions.
19:11:31 <Taneb> Are you on Sgeo's update list?
19:11:39 <tswett> I think so.
19:11:52 <Taneb> I didn't think of you as a Homestuck fan
19:12:17 <Sgeo> I converted tswett
19:12:20 <Taneb> :)
19:12:22 <tswett> I'm also the guy that invented chromatography in the year 1900.
19:12:30 <tswett> My first name is Mikhail.
19:12:34 <sirdancealot> nice to meet you
19:12:45 <mroman> And my name is Marie Curie.
19:12:53 <sirdancealot> nice to meet you too
19:12:59 <mroman> But I died of beeing to radioactive.
19:13:12 <Taneb> I'm just Taneb, or Ngevd online.
19:13:24 <Taneb> Nathan irl, if you happen to meet me
19:13:25 <mroman> *too
19:13:42 <tswett> Taneb: do you live in West Michigan or Chicago?
19:13:50 <Taneb> No
19:13:58 <Taneb> I live in the CAPITAL OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING, Hexham
19:14:10 <Taneb> sirdancealot, do you live in Hexham or Finland?
19:14:12 <tswett> In...
19:14:14 * tswett looks up.
19:14:15 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:14:20 <tswett> Northumberland?
19:14:22 <Taneb> Yeah
19:14:31 <Taneb> Me and elliott live there, but we've never met eachother?
19:14:50 <Taneb> 1 in 6000 people here frequent this channel
19:15:07 <Taneb> That's more than any place where more than 1 person frequents the channel
19:15:37 <tswett> So, you live near Manchester.
19:15:42 <Taneb> No?
19:15:45 <Taneb> Nowhere near
19:15:49 <Taneb> Like, 100 miles away
19:16:14 <Taneb> 150, according to google maps
19:16:16 -!- Dovregubben has joined.
19:16:33 <mroman> It's probably closer to edinburgh than to manchester.
19:16:50 <Taneb> By more than 50 miles
19:16:58 <Taneb> It's quite close to Newcastle?
19:17:17 <tswett> You know, I've never looked at the UK and the US on a map with the same scale.
19:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you found a map that does that?
19:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, all world maps have to do that.
19:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you meant superimposed.
19:18:25 <Taneb> The UK's... bigger than I though
19:18:26 <Taneb> t
19:18:26 <tswett> So the UK is about as big as... Newfoundland and Labrador?
19:18:36 <tswett> I've never heard of that.
19:18:41 <tswett> Well, yes I have.
19:18:45 <mroman> oh i see.
19:18:52 <mroman> Hexham is right next to new castle.
19:18:53 <tswett> The UK is farther north than I thought.
19:19:11 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm further north than the vast majority of the people in Canada
19:19:24 <tswett> Conclusion: the US is annoyingly large.
19:19:39 <nortti> Taneb: how north are you?
19:19:42 <Taneb> Hexham north
19:19:51 <Taneb> 55 degrees, I think
19:20:11 <mroman> I thought I knew Hexham by name.
19:20:11 <Taneb> 54.9, according to Wikipedia
19:20:13 <nortti> oh. I'm 65 degrees north
19:20:24 <tswett> And I'm... 43 degrees north.
19:20:25 <Taneb> Yeah, but you're in Finland
19:20:29 <Taneb> THE LAND OF THE FINNS
19:20:35 <tswett> The weather here still sucks.
19:20:48 <tswett> Average summer high: 28 C. Blegh.
19:20:53 <Taneb> 28 whole Cs?
19:20:57 <Taneb> I'd be so lucky.
19:21:00 <tswett> 28 entire C!
19:21:08 <Taneb> It's... 17 C here today
19:21:16 <calamari> uk area: 94,060 sq mi, arizona area: 113,990 sq mi
19:21:28 <mroman> 28 C, isn't that... perfect?
19:21:39 <mroman> Not too hot, not too cold.
19:21:53 <Taneb> I'd say 24?
19:22:02 <nortti> that is far too hot. around 17 C is good
19:22:16 <mroman> 36 C is hot.
19:22:19 <Taneb> It's 17 and really wet here
19:22:23 <Taneb> 30 is hot
19:22:32 <mroman> 30 is hot too.
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19:22:40 <Taneb> 24 is pretty hot
19:22:43 <mroman> Nah.
19:22:46 <Taneb> 24 is sunbathing temperature
19:22:46 <mroman> 24 is almost cold again.
19:22:50 <Taneb> No way.
19:22:54 <Taneb> 12 is almost cold again
19:22:55 <mroman> 26,27 is perfect.
19:22:58 <nortti> -30 is cold
19:23:02 <Phantom_Hoover> The average summer high in Edinburgh is colder than that in Helsinki.
19:23:04 <Taneb> WAY TOO HOT
19:23:06 <mroman> everything under 20 C is cold.
19:23:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, british temperature doesn't vary much
19:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
19:23:34 <calamari> I wish it were 30 here
19:23:48 <Taneb> Coldest I've seen, -12? Warmest, 29?
19:24:18 <nortti> coldest I have seen was about -38 and warmest about 40
19:24:51 <calamari> 36 right now, which is cooler than it has been
19:24:59 <Taneb> Dear god where are you
19:25:09 <calamari> tucson, arizona
19:25:22 <calamari> phoenix and yuma are hotter than us
19:25:24 <Taneb> Serves you right for being so far damn south
19:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Arizona is barely fit for human habitation though.
19:25:28 <calamari> lol
19:25:32 <mroman> -20 at night.
19:25:39 <nortti> not bad
19:25:39 <mroman> So I didn't really see it :)
19:26:39 <fizzie> I've heard it's been a not very warm July this year in (at least southern) Finland.
19:26:56 <mroman> Same here in swiss.
19:27:02 <mroman> It's fucking raining all the time.
19:27:06 <fizzie> 14.81 C at the moment according to outside.hut.fi, which I always check.
19:27:10 <calamari> heh so I implemented a locking mechanism (to enforce single instance).. and then I realized it does not work because this program launches a gui thread and so my lock dies
19:27:33 <mroman> raining, hail, storms
19:27:45 <Taneb> You've got exciting rain.
19:27:58 <Taneb> We've just got sporadic miserable drizzle, followed by flooding
19:28:38 <Taneb> And then bright sunshine
19:28:43 <mroman> It's not exciting rain.
19:28:47 <Taneb> It sometimes gets all the way up to 21
19:28:49 <mroman> It's very heavy rain.
19:29:01 <mroman> It's raining cats and dogs!
19:29:19 <Taneb> Lie close to the roof and listen to it :)
19:30:01 <nortti> here the rain is also pretty boring except when it rains sideways
19:30:22 <Taneb> It sometimes rains upwards here
19:30:36 <nortti> I'd like to see that
19:32:19 <mroman> Are you walking in handstand position on hexham abbey?
19:32:51 <nortti> me?
19:33:21 <mroman> nah.
19:33:23 <mroman> him.
19:34:11 <Taneb> Of course
19:34:17 <Taneb> It's the best way to get around
19:36:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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19:39:54 <nortti> neat. without extra binaries like strace my clean build of userland of my distro take 1 minute and 44 seconds on my machine
19:40:05 <nortti> -my
19:42:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:50:32 * oerjan thinks today
19:50:41 <oerjan> 's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P
19:50:55 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:51:16 <oerjan> * oerjan thinks today's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P
19:51:35 <oerjan> well for a mezzacotta comic
19:52:58 <Gregor> "It's an incomprehensible labyrinth of nonsense, but it's pretty good.
19:52:59 <Gregor> "
19:54:15 <oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
19:55:49 <mroman> `addquote < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
19:55:51 <HackEgo> 850) < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations
19:56:20 <Gregor> ... wut?
19:56:26 <mroman> just so that your quote is searchable .
20:01:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Ünicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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20:43:28 <Taneb> I've came to realise that creating a pair of Turing-complete machines and a correspondence such that a program in one machine halts iff the corresponding program in the other machine doesn't, would solve the halting problem
20:43:51 <nortti> how?
20:44:27 <Taneb> Either the program in the first machine or the corresponding machine in the second machine halts in finite time
20:44:42 -!- calamari has joined.
20:44:48 <Taneb> Hang on
20:44:56 <Taneb> Why didn't I listen to my past self
20:45:26 <Taneb> Wait
20:45:58 <Taneb> Executing both simultaneously and waiting for one to halt, then stopping both, is guaranteed to halt, at which point you can inspect which halted
20:47:54 <olsner> sounds like a proof that there is no such correspondence
20:48:09 <Taneb> Yes
20:48:35 <Taneb> Considering that there are more than two Turing-complete computation modelly things
20:48:58 <Taneb> For instance, untyped lambda calculus and Wang's bathroom tiles
20:49:17 <Taneb> And the original Turing Machine
20:51:05 <mroman> You mean, M1 halts, if P halts, and doesn't if P doesn't halt
20:51:22 <mroman> and M2 halts, if P doesn't halt, and doesn't halt if P halts?
20:52:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:52:34 -!- KlonMac7 has joined.
20:52:44 <KlonMac7> hello
20:52:48 <Taneb> Hello
20:52:54 <Taneb> `welcome KlonMac7
20:52:57 <HackEgo> KlonMac7: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:53:10 <Taneb> mroman, precisely
20:53:55 <mroman> At least sounds like it busts the halting problem.
20:54:34 <Taneb> Hence, as the Halting problem has been repeatedly proven to be unsolvable, there is no such alternating correspondence between two Turing-machines
20:55:33 <oerjan> KlonMac7: hello, i noticed your language has no flow control yet...
20:56:21 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
20:56:52 <mroman> Is there an actual concrete program for which it is impossible to solve the halting problem?
20:57:08 <oerjan> mroman: an interpreter of a TC language >:)
20:57:35 <mroman> That doesn't quite count.
20:57:38 <Taneb> If by program, you mean program/input pair, I don't think so
20:57:52 <shachaf> mroman: Why doesn't it count?
20:57:53 <Taneb> But goodnight!
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20:58:07 <shachaf> There are certainly plenty of programs which we have no idea whether they'll halt or not.
20:58:32 <mroman> shachaf: Because the interpreter can be reduced to the problem of the halting problem of the program it is executing.
20:58:42 <mroman> so the interpreter is just a layer we can ignore.
20:58:54 <oerjan> mroman: note that for a given program and input, there always exists _some_ program that can tell whether it halts or not. (print "Halts" and print "Doesn't halt")
20:58:57 <mroman> if a bf program terminates, so does it's interpreter.
20:59:02 <oerjan> *one of
20:59:25 <shachaf> oerjan: Classicalist!
20:59:28 <shachaf> Classicist?
20:59:30 <shachaf> Whatever.
20:59:48 <mroman> oerjan: That's what I figured.
21:00:25 <mroman> The question is, does a program exists that does it in finite time?
21:00:29 <mroman> -s
21:00:54 <shachaf> mroman: You should probably read what oerjan said again.
21:00:58 <oerjan> mroman: um one of those does so in _constant_ time.
21:01:46 <mroman> Which just makes the halting problem less significant for me.
21:02:29 <shachaf> mroman: Yes, I'm pretty sure you should read what oerjan said again. :-)
21:02:39 <oerjan> to clarify, the _programs_ are 'print "Halts"' and 'print "Doesn't halt"'
21:03:08 <oerjan> and one of them always gives the right answer (says the classicist)
21:03:12 <mroman> that's just more confusing actually.
21:03:21 <mroman> oh.
21:03:31 <mroman> You're sugesting a program that guesses?
21:03:34 <mroman> +g
21:03:38 <mroman> no fair.
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21:03:53 <shachaf> No.
21:03:55 <oerjan> mroman: no, i'm suggesting two programs. for any given input, one of them will be correct.
21:04:10 <mroman> Unless you know which one, that's pretty much useless
21:04:17 <mroman> and not what I meant to ask for actually.
21:04:47 <oerjan> mroman: the point i'm really trying to point out here is that unsolvability doesn't make _sense_ for a single program/input case.
21:04:53 <oerjan> *make here
21:05:20 <mroman> Well.
21:05:41 <mroman> If you can solve the halting problem with a program written by a human for a given program written by a human
21:06:13 <oerjan> the halting problem says that there is no way to construct a program that tells correctly for _every_ halting question instance.
21:06:22 <mroman> (or written by a program written by a human)
21:06:26 <oerjan> *the halting theorem
21:06:50 <oerjan> mroman: now you are getting into AI theory, because that's needed to define those terms...
21:07:02 <mroman> doesn't that mean that you can solve it for every program a human can write
21:07:16 <mroman> and humans can write every program that can exist.
21:07:25 <oerjan> mroman: um a human can write a program that they don't know whether halts or not.
21:07:30 <shachaf> Humans can't write every program that exists.
21:07:42 <shachaf> And it's easy to write a program that no one knows whether it'll halt.
21:07:52 <shachaf> (And that people care about whether it'll halt, also.)
21:07:59 <mroman> So
21:08:03 <mroman> That's what I asked for.
21:08:06 <mroman> Such a program.
21:08:44 <mroman> also
21:08:55 <mroman> no one knows doesn't quite mean that it can't be solved at all.
21:09:10 <shachaf> for (i = 0; ; i++) { if (containsNon421Cycle(collatz(i))) { halt(); } }
21:09:30 <mroman> That's a classical example program, yes.
21:10:06 <mroman> but afaik it's just not proven *yet* that it always ends up in the same cycle.
21:10:43 <oerjan> mroman: so? it is by no means unlikely that many of the unsolved mathematical problems are unsolvable
21:10:45 <shachaf> OK. Lots of things aren't proven *yet*.
21:11:11 <oerjan> perhaps collatz can be solved, but then almost certainly some other problem cannot
21:13:24 <oerjan> > head [n | n <- [1, 3..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]]
21:13:28 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
21:13:32 <oerjan> shocking
21:13:33 -!- nortti_ has joined.
21:13:44 <oerjan> > head [n | n <- [2, 4..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]]
21:13:45 <lambdabot> 6
21:15:39 <oerjan> mroman: also disallowing things embedding interpreters is disingenious because embedding an interpreter for something TC is the main way most proofs of unsolvability are done.
21:19:03 <oerjan> for example, i could write a program that searches for solutions to the post correspondence theorem and that would be an example of a program whose halting problem is undecidable - but the reason we _know_ that is because the turing machine halting problem can be encoded into it.
21:19:11 <mroman> but if a Program in a TC language terminates, so does the interpreter.
21:19:22 <mroman> as well as the interpreter interpreting the interpreter interpreting the program
21:19:25 <oerjan> which is essentially a form of interpretation.
21:19:51 <oerjan> mroman: yes, and so?
21:20:47 <mroman> That means that an interpreter is a bad example program as an answer to my question.
21:21:37 <oerjan> mroman: yes, but as i say most _known_ example program are known precisely because they are interpreters in disguise ... sometimes deeply disguised.
21:21:43 <oerjan> *programs
21:22:29 <oerjan> there might be counterexamples which i haven't heard about.
21:23:48 <oerjan> or there might not be.
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21:54:29 <Sgeo> I liked the season 1-2 intro better
22:15:35 <Phantom_Hoover> So do I, but it works a lot better with those seasons than later ones.
22:21:29 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:22:38 <nortti_> soundnfury: what language are you using to implement your lisp on spectrum?
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22:40:01 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuNs1v_jtfs
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23:06:44 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, I meant the music
23:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> The same is true of that.
23:10:35 <calamari> argh the fan in my window a/c just got loud
23:11:09 <calamari> wonder how much of a pain in the ass it will be to figure out where it is and fix it
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23:34:25 -!- Veronica has joined.
23:35:21 <Veronica> hola
23:35:31 <oerjan> `welcome Veronica
23:35:34 <HackEgo> Veronica: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:35:42 <Veronica> THank
23:35:56 <shachaf> `WELCOME oerjan
23:36:00 <HackEgo> OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
23:36:08 <Veronica> ¿how are you?
23:36:10 <oerjan> shachaf: THANKS
23:36:25 <Veronica> Welcome Shachaf
23:36:34 <shachaf> `thanks
23:36:37 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thanks: not found
23:36:40 <Veronica> :)
23:36:49 <shachaf> oerjan: YOU'RE WELCOME
23:36:54 <shachaf> (WAIT, DID I JUST SAY THAT?)
23:36:57 <Veronica> Gracias
23:36:57 <oerjan> OH NOES
23:37:04 <Veronica> HAblas español
23:37:25 <oerjan> Nope
23:37:34 <Veronica> holaaaaaaaaa
23:37:39 <shachaf> `WELCOME OERJAN
23:37:40 <Veronica> alguien habla español
23:37:42 <HackEgo> ​OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS
23:38:03 <Veronica> OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLA
23:38:21 <Veronica> holaaaaaaaaaa
23:38:22 <Veronica> bye
23:38:47 <oerjan> this unicode is getting out of hand
23:39:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:39:58 <shachaf> oerjan: ami guilt yof ru iningt hischa nnel?
23:40:13 -!- Veronica has left.
23:41:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:41:33 <olsner> shachaf: kahdeksankymmeltäyhdeksän?
23:42:20 <shachaf> olsner: More like "kahdeksankymmentäyhdeksän".
23:42:30 <shachaf> lern2finnish
23:42:38 <olsner> shachaf: ok
23:42:49 <shachaf> olsner: And then teach me. :-(
23:43:48 <olsner> airo on meidän
2012-07-12
00:19:11 <Sgeo> That's disturbing, I had something in common with Rimmer.
00:19:50 <Sgeo> When I was a kid, once played a game and wrote down all the rolls of the dice
00:19:53 <Sgeo> iirc
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01:02:34 <itidus21> smeghead
01:06:52 <oerjan> get the smeg out of the channel with your smegging rude language
01:13:00 <itidus21> ^bf +[>+<+++++++]>-.>++[>+<+++++]>-.>+>+[+++[++>]<<]>..>>+[+>+[<]>->]<.
01:13:01 <fungot> Hello
01:19:49 <tswett> The plural of "irssi" is "irssit", right?
01:26:54 <oerjan> SOUNDS REASONABLE
01:39:05 <itidus21> tswett: sir, i believe we've wandered accidentally into a rogue simulant hunting zone
01:39:49 <tswett> Are you a simulant?
01:40:25 <itidus21> i don't know
01:40:46 <itidus21> @google simulant
01:40:48 <lambdabot> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulant
01:41:39 <oerjan> i'm not a simulant, although i can simulate one if you want
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01:51:35 <shachaf> kmc: I found out that I completely misunderstood CTR mode, and that the thing it actually is is kind of weird.
01:51:44 <kmc> oh yeah?
01:51:46 <Sgeo> tswett, simulant is a Red Dwarf reference
01:52:22 <shachaf> Weird in that it doesn't every use the cipher to decrypt -- it just uses it as a sort of pseudo-random function.
01:52:33 <kmc> yeah
01:52:42 <kmc> it's a way of creating a stream cipher from a block cipher, in a sense
01:52:58 <shachaf> Well, so is e.g. CBC.
01:53:06 <shachaf> But it actually uses the block cipher in both directions.
01:53:37 <shachaf> I had previously thought it was something like encrypt(xor(block, iv + counter), key)
01:53:47 <shachaf> But people pointed out that that's broken.
01:55:19 <kmc> because the data might increment alongside the counter?
01:55:43 <itidus21> i googled it as a random quote though
01:55:46 <shachaf> Well, because if you can encrypt a chosen plaintext with a particular ID, you can compare it to another ciphertext to see if they match.
01:57:30 <itidus21> i am not actually a qualified red dwarf fan
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02:03:16 <Sgeo> Just encountered an advantage that Lisp-style macros have over Tcl-style... thingy
02:04:30 <kmc> shachaf: I've decided that when people complain about "ATM machine" and such, I will complain about "all OK"~
02:04:52 <shachaf> kmc: OK isn't an acronym.
02:05:00 <shachaf> Or an initialism, if you're the sort of person who complains about that.
02:05:04 <kmc> that's just, like, your opinion, man
02:05:35 * shachaf has been defeated.
02:06:08 <shachaf> So why do people put a lot of work into making block ciphers and then use them as stream ciphers?
02:08:52 <kmc> perhaps because they want to use stream ciphers, but the things designed as stream ciphers tend to be weak
02:10:02 <itidus21> one may also ask, why is this a popular platform? http://www.theunwired.net/media/news/opera_mini_5_android_teaser_hand.jpg .. why do developers work on several 32" monitors with maya and 3dsmax etc to produce 3d content for such a small device
02:10:31 <kmc> itidus21, never change
02:10:44 <itidus21> and.. maybe someone agrees with me.. and hence: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ouya/ouya-a-new-kind-of-video-game-console
02:10:55 <itidus21> Backers
02:10:55 <itidus21> $3,586,881
02:11:02 * kmc knows even less about stream ciphers than he does about block ciphers
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02:11:21 <shachaf> kmc: Don't stream ciphers tend to be the thing you actually want?
02:11:24 <shachaf> Hence all these modes.
02:11:52 <itidus21> noone wants to hear the nonsensical ravings of a loudmouth malcontent
02:12:01 <kmc> that's what i mean
02:12:45 <itidus21> when ouya raises $10,000,000 they would know i was right if they listen >:-D
02:13:07 <shachaf> It seems really roundabout to me to put a lot of work into making a block cipher, ignore half of it, and use it to generate a keystream.
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02:13:36 <kmc> i don't think you actually ignore half of the work
02:13:44 <shachaf> Well, yes.
02:13:48 <shachaf> I mean half of the cipher.
02:14:09 <shachaf> The argument seems to be "AES happens to have all the properties we want, and people have put a lot of work into understanding it, so we might as well use that".
02:14:12 <shachaf> Which I guess is reasonable.
02:14:54 <kmc> so what if you use something like a block cipher but lacking a "decrypt" operation
02:15:00 <kmc> i.e. a cryptographic hash function
02:15:52 <shachaf> Right.
02:15:55 * itidus21 realises i don't even know how i got from ATM/OK -> android
02:15:57 <kmc> ciphertext = xor(plaintext, hash(key + counter))
02:16:01 <kmc> is that secure?
02:16:18 <itidus21> ^s/i don't/he doesn't/ s/i got/he got/
02:16:31 <shachaf> It would seem to me to be, given an appropriate behavior of hash().
02:16:45 <shachaf> key + iv + counter, I guess.
02:17:00 <kmc> the iv is a per-session random constant?
02:17:02 <kmc> secret?
02:17:07 <shachaf> Not secret.
02:17:11 <shachaf> This is assuming you use the key more than once.
02:17:14 <kmc> ah right
02:17:23 <kmc> you can also start the counter at a random point, equivalently
02:17:42 <shachaf> I suppose.
02:18:09 <shachaf> Some people suggested that the compression function used in SHA1 is actually a good deal slower than AES.
02:18:48 <itidus21> oh yes.. the parallels between the fact that they "put a lot of work into" hdtv, and gpus, and the fact that gamers ultimately "ignore half of it, and" gravitate towards low end handhelds
02:19:17 <shachaf> itidus21: You've bored right through to the heart of the matter.
02:19:20 <shachaf> You've figured me out.
02:19:25 * shachaf is part of the conspiracy.
02:19:32 <itidus21> you were talking about gaming all along!
02:20:34 <itidus21> ok im satisfied
02:21:56 * itidus21 recounts events
02:22:34 <itidus21> "people have put a lot of work into understanding it, so we might as well use that" so it's the gambler's fallacy that since we have invested this much, we have to stick with it
02:23:06 <kmc> it hurts so much
02:23:14 <itidus21> ok so thats not gamblers fallacy
02:23:23 <kmc> no it is a fallacy of gamblers though
02:23:27 <kmc> i was going to give you the benefit of the doubt
02:23:49 <itidus21> Escalation of commitment i mean
02:24:11 <kmc> i think there is a "sunk costs anti-fallacy" where some people will cry "sunk costs fallacy!" at any attempt to utilize existing resources
02:24:43 <kmc> obviously if you abandon any project in which costs have been sunk, you will get nothing done
02:24:55 <kmc> the question is whether the future payoff from the project exceeds the future costs
02:25:38 <kmc> in the case of using AES as a crypto primitive, the future payoff (highly secure systems) is judged to be worth the future costs (integrating this well-understood, widely implemented thing)
02:26:13 <shachaf> There's no real cost, I suppose, it's just weird.
02:29:12 <shachaf> kmc: So when people say "AES-256 is theoretically broken by a related-key attack", does that also apply to CTR mode?
02:37:22 <kmc> beats me :x
02:48:33 <Sgeo> <ijchain> <stevel> cool lisp is
02:48:44 <Sgeo> Why why why would a Tcl'er joke about Lisp like _that_
02:48:53 <Sgeo> I mean, in that regard, Tcl and Lisp are rather close
02:49:08 <Sgeo> (Well, except for the expr thing for math)
02:55:08 <kmc> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO PARENTHESES
02:55:21 <kmc> also i think it's backwards but
02:55:26 <kmc> people on the internet say dumb shit about lisp
02:55:28 <kmc> film at 11
02:55:56 <oerjan> confusing with forth you are
02:56:16 <quintopia> was yoda a forth program
02:56:20 <quintopia> mer
02:57:18 <oerjan> no forth wasn't invented yet
02:57:22 <oerjan> hth
02:57:37 <quintopia> parallel evolution
03:10:37 <shachaf> From #haskell: data PBT a = Leaf | Branch (PBT (a,a)) deriving (Eq,Ord,Show,Read); let x :: PBT a; x = Branch x
03:10:41 <shachaf> That recursion really bugs me.
03:11:23 <oerjan> nice
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04:49:40 <oklopol> olsner: ei muuten todellakaan ole. me voitimme sen reilusti ja neliö.
04:50:35 <ion> I love that expression.
04:51:02 <oklopol> yeah i think i'll use it from now on
04:58:39 <oklopol> some fucking asshole is doing his laundry on my turn again
04:59:44 <oklopol> if i lived here and was sure it's not my gf's roommate, i'd totally like still not do anything about it.
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06:22:44 <itidus21> that's the spirit. mathematician/computer programmers are not the alphamales of the laundry machines.
06:37:12 <Sgeo_> Can elephants juggle more than seven chainsaws?
06:40:07 <itidus21> "juggling elephants" About 62,700 results
06:40:48 <itidus21> "juggling elephants" chainsaws About 709 results
06:40:57 <itidus21> including such gems as:
06:41:09 <itidus21> So, rather than playing this admirable slice of soaring gospel rock against a backdrop of chainsaw-juggling elephants and heavily mauled,
06:41:26 <itidus21> to prove do not exist; abominable snowmen, flying pigs, chainsaw juggling elephants, teapots orbiting celestial bodies, to name but a few.
06:41:57 <itidus21> Maybe they'd bring on juggling elephants or chainsaw-wielding tightrope walkers, because surely such events are the only reason football
06:42:23 <Sgeo_> Try googling the entire question
06:42:51 <itidus21> :O
06:46:07 <itidus21> how long is my life going to be
06:46:56 <Sgeo_> ?
06:47:36 <itidus21> that in addition to all i have suffered, and all i am due to suffer, that i must suffer such things as the tcl war
06:48:47 <fizzie> The Tcl Wars of 1994, such a senseless waste of human life.
06:48:51 <itidus21> perhaps these people should give up science and instead join sports, politics, or religion
06:49:25 <itidus21> <-- more than a little hypocritical
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07:34:57 <itidus21> the tcl war is partially fascism
07:37:13 <mroman> `ウェルカム itidus21
07:37:22 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ウェルカム: not found
07:37:26 <itidus21> i can't see the text >.<
07:37:30 <mroman> pff.
07:37:40 <pikhq> mroman: 「ようこそ」
07:37:54 <pikhq> 「ウェルカム」は変。
07:38:14 <itidus21> "we need everyone to stop using a thing which looks set to became popular on it's own merits, and instead use an unpopular thing favorable to people like richard stallman"
07:39:27 <mroman> pikhq: なるほど
07:42:49 <itidus21> sorry i am playing catch up on rms
07:43:02 <itidus21> it's evidently 18 year old news
07:43:18 <itidus21> oops 8?
07:43:34 <itidus21> no 18 phew
07:43:46 <itidus21> forgot about the years 2001 - 2010
07:44:23 <mroman> nothing happened in these years anyway.
07:44:29 <itidus21> true
07:45:02 <fizzie> Didn't that "never forget" thing happen?
07:45:15 <Sgeo_> What non-Smalltalk language communities have people who like image-based stuff?
07:45:22 <Sgeo_> There's at least two such things for Tcl
07:45:31 <itidus21> fizzie: oh you mean the war on iraq?
07:45:35 <itidus21> yeah that happened :P
07:45:39 <fizzie> What's image-based stuff?
07:45:55 <Sgeo_> As in, single file that contains the entire environment
07:46:01 <fizzie> Oh, that sort of image.
07:46:05 <Sgeo_> ala non-GNU Smalltalk
07:46:27 <fizzie> Well, Forthers do that sort of stuff sometimes, don't they?
07:46:50 <fizzie> At least Gforth does image files, gforth.fi by default.
07:48:59 <itidus21> i notice audio is very popular
07:49:00 <fizzie> And, uh... R?
07:49:21 <itidus21> i guess if i had actually used an instrument ever i might find audio more appealing
07:49:28 <fizzie> Also I vaguely recall some Scheme doing something similar, but I don't have a clue which one it was.
07:50:13 <itidus21> i think that cool people prefer audio over video
07:50:23 <itidus21> but i can't quite explain why
07:50:24 <fizzie> Cool people, and blind people.
07:50:31 <fizzie> (Presumably.)
07:50:36 <itidus21> hmm actually
07:50:49 <itidus21> i suppose it's because a human body, with no other tools
07:50:56 <itidus21> can produce sound and music
07:51:41 <itidus21> but, in order to create visual things, you need objects to arrange... video displays, cameras, pens, pencils, canvases, paper, paint, etc
07:53:13 <mroman> "never forget" thing?
07:53:14 <itidus21> also, that an instrument becomes an extension of the human body in that sense.. doesn't need fuel.. as the way video needs electricity usually.. pens need ink
07:53:19 <mroman> First black president?
07:53:25 <itidus21> mroman: the oil thing
07:53:30 <mroman> Oh.
07:53:33 <itidus21> :P
07:53:34 <fizzie> The seven-eleven.
07:53:36 <fizzie> Or whatever it was.
07:53:39 <mroman> Americans invading Iraq...
07:53:40 <mroman> AGAIN!
07:54:00 <mroman> After they supported the dictator there for so a damn long time.
07:54:08 <itidus21> americans deconstructing and reconstructing iraq
07:54:16 <fizzie> Whenever I put a date on something I stick in the freezer, I'm tempted to write "never forget!" after the date. I've done it a couple of times, too.
07:55:58 <mroman> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRn0SQsUKuw
07:56:01 <itidus21> im too paranoid to believe the official version of events
07:56:14 <mroman> ^- That's pretty much the picture an average critical european has of america ;)
07:56:20 <fizzie> Doesn't MIT Scheme have some sort of an image file?
07:56:42 <fizzie> "This distribution comes with four different image files, each of which contains different mixes of programs." Yes, something like that.
07:57:17 <fizzie> "A world image, also called a band, is a file that contains a complete Scheme system, perhaps additionally including user application code. Scheme provides a method for saving and restoring world images."
07:57:22 <fizzie> Fancy name.
07:57:42 <fizzie> 'disk-save' puts the band back together.
07:57:58 <itidus21> i don't know why images become so wonderful
07:58:18 <itidus21> it's just vram data being blasted along a vga cable
07:58:31 <fizzie> This is a different sort of image, though.
07:58:34 <fizzie> The non-visual kind.
07:58:39 <itidus21> :o
07:59:20 <itidus21> I see http://english.eastday.com/e/zx/images/01459347.jpg
07:59:35 <itidus21> (that's me understanding non-visual images)
08:02:38 <fizzie> It's more like just stealing the word to denote something else. Like there's disk images, those aren't especially visual either.
08:03:20 <itidus21> conversations with me rarely go anywhere
08:07:13 <itidus21> A PIECE of wood which starred in 60s comic caper The Plank amazed experts when it broke the 1,000 barrier at auction.
08:15:03 <fizzie> This printer smells of popcorn.
08:16:14 <itidus21> i wonder if anyone has ever loaded up the red section of a color ink cartridge with their own blood
08:17:08 <itidus21> and frankly i don't want to know
08:18:59 <fizzie> It might not work terribly well. Though it does sound like a modern way to be all gothy, I suppose.
08:19:29 <pikhq> mroman: And an American view on America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWS-FoXbjVI
08:20:29 <mroman> Probably: "You wanna help the poor? Are you a socialist? Ary you a socialist? Aryoua SOZIALOSSTHSTHSHS?"
08:20:56 <mroman> (^- american tv interviewer)
08:21:31 <itidus21> i love how they list sushi
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08:45:00 <ion> https://www.google.com/search?q=%2210.4000%22+hp+laserjet+event+log+code
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08:50:03 <fizzie> That's a lot of printers.
08:50:32 <fizzie> I vaguely recall there are queries that do something quite similar for networked cameras.
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08:50:44 <Taneb> Hello
08:50:51 <Taneb> I can get on IRC at school now, apparently?
08:51:09 <ion> http://www.exploit-db.com/google-dorks/
08:51:22 <Taneb> Blocked for hacking?
08:52:57 <fizzie> ion: You could take all the Google results of your printer thing, get the black cartridge level from the 'device status' page, and then plot a histogram showing the overall distribution of black cartridge levels on HP LaserJet P2055dn printers around the world. I'm sure that's interesting to someone.
08:53:22 <fizzie> E.g. the printer at 70.108.240.40 only has 1% (approx. 27 pages) remaining, someone should do something about that.
08:54:15 <Taneb> Hey, cpressey's alive
08:54:20 <ion> fizzie: Hah
08:54:48 <ion> fizzie: Since that printing operation will change the value, one should do that again. And again.
08:56:57 <fizzie> I was thinking of just, you know, publishing the plot on the web, not printing it out to everyone. :p
09:00:29 <ion> Oh, okay. :-(
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09:07:52 <soundnfury> nortti: I'm afraid I was asleep when you asked your question last night. The answer is Z80 asm.
09:09:35 <fizzie> Time for daily trivia! The SGI FFT library defines single- and double-precision complex number types (as struct { T re; T im; } with T = float or T = double). The former type is called 'complex', but the latter type has the best possible name: it's called 'zomplex'. (It follows the LAPACK naming scheme with S, D, C and Z mapping to single, double, single complex and double complex types, ...
09:09:41 <fizzie> ... respectively.)
09:09:46 <soundnfury> in other news, http://jttlov.no-ip.org/music/gark/Guil_bis.ogg - William Tell on garkleins, by the power of multitrack recording. Unconscionably high-pitched: you have been warned.
09:10:19 <soundnfury> fizzie: cool. Or, to be more precise, zool.
09:10:32 <fizzie> (zomplex! It still makes me smile.)
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09:11:28 <fizzie> zomplex f(zomplex z, zomplex w) { /* giggle */ }
09:11:41 <soundnfury> zomg zombie complex numbers! "√-brains"
09:12:37 <ion> soundnfury: Heh, nice.
09:13:03 <soundnfury> and here's some daily trivia for you: the inverted interrobang ⸘ is also known as the "gnaborretni"
09:14:10 <ion> ᵷuɐqoɹɹǝʇuᴉ
09:15:04 <soundnfury> hmm, for me that starts and ends with replacement characters
09:15:18 <soundnfury> so I just see inverted nterroban
09:15:27 <ion> Ask for your money back.
09:15:34 <fizzie> Works here. But my terminal can't show the asterism, ⁂.
09:15:46 <soundnfury> Looks like a mini therefore
09:15:58 * soundnfury likes the compose key
09:16:12 <fizzie> It's like a therefore except with stars in place of plain dots.
09:16:36 <soundnfury> ¢ømpōßê
09:16:54 <ion> I see the asterism, too.
09:16:54 <soundnfury> especially neat is ##->♯ and #b->♭
09:17:06 <ion> soundnfury: Cool, i didn’t know that.
09:17:07 <monqy> ᵷuɐqoɹɹǝʇuᴉ looks like "interrobany" to me
09:17:21 <itidus21> soundnfury: inverted as in upsidedown?
09:17:26 <soundnfury> monqy: when you type ᵷuɐqoɹɹǝʇuᴉ all I see is hunter2
09:17:33 <itidus21> i don't have unicode
09:17:36 <soundnfury> itidus21: as in turned
09:17:38 <ion> monqy: You may want to ask for your money back, too.
09:17:44 <soundnfury> like the spaniards do with ? and !
09:17:49 <soundnfury> ¿Que?
09:17:54 <itidus21> ohh
09:17:54 <ion> U+1D77 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED G
09:17:55 <itidus21> wow
09:18:04 <itidus21> so you can do that with interrobangs :o
09:18:12 <monqy> it's a g but they goofed it and chopped off the top
09:18:21 <monqy> small turned g I mean
09:18:32 <soundnfury> ion: sadly there doesn't appear to be a compose for the natural sign ☹
09:18:50 <fizzie> Can you turn the ⸮ (irony mark) around?
09:18:53 <itidus21> No es bueno?
09:19:01 <ion> I find funny how Unicode has a white smiling face and a black smiling face, but just a white frowning face.
09:19:14 <soundnfury> aha, a table: http://www.hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html
09:19:33 <soundnfury> ion: that's because black people aren't allowed to be unhappy (or something)
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09:20:05 <ion> Also: http://www.pixelbeat.org/scripts/ximkeys
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09:20:24 <soundnfury> ſweet! It has long ſ!
09:20:29 <fizzie> GTK (unless you do something to the input method) has its own hardcoded list of compose sequences that's not as complete as the default X list, nor can you customize it with a ~/.Xcompose. :/
09:20:50 <ion> compoſe
09:21:04 <soundnfury> fizzie: that sucks.
09:21:17 <fizzie> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GtkComposeTable -- the stupef.
09:21:50 <fizzie> "The Gtk Compose Table was derived from the X compose tables of XFree86 version 4.0 with further modification intended to provide a Gnome standard for all locales. It is likely that in future it will follow more closely the xorg version. Please keep track of GNOME bug 633534 for complete documentation."
09:21:55 <fizzie> Maybe it's better nowadays.
09:21:58 <fizzie> Last I looked was some years back.,
09:22:17 <fizzie> But I don't think you can customize it yet.
09:23:34 <fizzie> There doesn't seem to be an INVERTED REVERSED QUESTION MARK, so you can't do [insert missing character here]Spanish irony⸮ in Unicode either.
09:23:59 <soundnfury> clearly you need to complain to the Consortium!
09:24:37 <soundnfury> #f->♮
09:24:45 <soundnfury> now how is one supposed to guess that?
09:26:05 <soundnfury> also I hate how they went for #q=quarter note instead of #q=quaver (eighth note, #e, they think)
09:28:43 <FireFly> You can change it
09:29:03 <FireFly> Oh. that was mentioned a while ago
09:29:26 <FireFly> Oh, and I was thinking of the plain old XCompose file
09:33:13 <soundnfury> /usr/share/X11/locale/<locale>/Compose
09:33:26 <soundnfury> seems to be the system's master list
09:35:06 <soundnfury> haha, Compose C C C P ☭
09:35:12 <soundnfury> that's hilarious!
09:35:21 <nortti> what does it do?
09:39:15 <nortti> does it produce sicle and hammer?
09:39:23 <soundnfury> yes
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09:41:12 <nortti> awesome
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10:11:14 <Taneb> Hello
10:11:44 <Taneb> Hackage is down :(
10:12:23 <nortti> hackage?
10:12:32 <Taneb> http://www.isup.me/hackage.haskell.org
10:12:44 <nortti> what is it?
10:13:06 <Taneb> It's a collection of haskell packages on a website, used by Cabal
10:13:10 <nortti> oh
10:13:38 <nortti> are you using mail server to irc?
10:14:05 <Taneb> I... don't think so?
10:14:17 <Taneb> I might be
10:14:21 <nortti> 13:11 -!- Taneb [~Taneb@mail.qehs.net] has joined #esoteric
10:14:26 <Taneb> It sounds like the kind of thing my school would do
10:15:00 <nortti> well actually I have my shell on mail/web server
10:15:10 <Taneb> I'm using a network my school's set up for sixth form students
10:15:17 <Taneb> (16-18)
10:15:28 <nortti> oh
10:16:24 <nortti> soundnfury: how do you do management/garbage cllection in your lisp?
10:17:44 <soundnfury> nortti: the plan is mark-and-sweep
10:18:11 <soundnfury> but I haven't got very far with implementation yet
10:18:59 <soundnfury> so far I've written the compiler (which runs on a 'host' Linux system and compiles program text to a bundle of conses)
10:19:26 <soundnfury> I'm currently working on a C/Linux runtime so I can get the logic sorted out
10:19:32 <soundnfury> then I'll reimplement it into Z80
10:22:26 <fizzie> It could also be a NAT kind of thing, with the single public IP named for the mail server.
10:22:43 <Taneb> Could be
10:28:37 <nortti> http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/12/in-the-uk-you-will-go-to-jail-not-just-for-encryption-but-for-astronomical-noise-too/
10:29:31 <Taneb> Isn't that causing a disturbance and keeping the neighbours awake
10:29:38 <Taneb> "That racket is astronomical!"
10:32:32 <Taneb> bbl
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10:49:38 <itidus21> oh
10:49:51 <itidus21> well honestly
10:50:31 <itidus21> it's best to just drop the pretense that laws are grounded in logic,morals, ethics, or philosophies..
10:50:46 <itidus21> and accept that they emerge as artifacts of social conflict
10:52:50 <nortti> where did you live, again
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11:11:56 <itidus21> me? aus
11:12:06 <itidus21> as in, non-european aus
11:12:20 <nortti> ah. ok
11:12:29 <itidus21> heh
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11:54:40 <mroman> Today's fucked up idea:
11:54:48 <mroman> A language based on blink and marque tags.
11:55:04 <nortti> yay. I got js enabled browser to compile
11:55:08 <mroman> Programs can be disguised as crappy webpages.
11:55:11 <nortti> but it is text only
11:57:27 <mroman> <blink><marquee>Buy one free today</marquee></blink><blink>GET READY</blink>
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12:01:31 <mroman> <blink>Hello Taneb</blink>
12:01:36 <Taneb> Hey
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12:01:42 <Taneb> *Hello
12:02:22 <mroman> Two instruction language that'd be.
12:02:34 <Taneb> Set is one of the few interesting foldables that aren't functors
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12:42:41 <Taneb> Hello
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12:53:33 <soundnfury> mroman: you could make <blink> be S and <marquee> be K
12:54:15 <soundnfury> and have string application be concatenation
12:56:46 <soundnfury> <blink><marquee>Buy one</marquee>free today</blink><blink>GET READY</blink> would b-reduce to BuytodayfreetodayGET
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13:10:32 <itidus21> what is the point i am apt to wonder, of changing a variable from one state to another
13:12:13 <itidus21> i must admit finding some consolation to this question when i randomly stumbled upon martin buber in wikipedia with Ich-Du and Ich-Es
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13:17:16 <mroman> soundnfury: I would consider it to be SKS
13:17:21 <mroman> only counting start tags.
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13:46:22 <soundnfury> I suppose, because the arities of S and K are defined.
13:46:35 <soundnfury> so you don't need the end-tags to parenthesise arguments
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14:55:31 <mroman> soundnfury: Stuff between tags is comments.
14:55:38 <mroman> <blink>I'm a comment</blink>
14:55:44 <mroman> so you can disguise it as a legit website.
14:57:00 <Gregor> The kind of “legit” web site with <blink> tags? ^^´
14:58:13 <mroman> Gregor: Yes.
14:59:06 <mroman> <blink>Buy one free</blink> websites.
15:01:00 <mroman> and other non standard tags.
15:01:01 <mroman> like
15:01:04 <mroman> spacer
15:01:06 <mroman> image
15:01:10 <mroman> and bgsound of course
15:04:05 <Gregor> <embed src="something_horrible_by_britney_spears.mid" loop="true" />
15:07:29 <soundnfury> it could be worse
15:07:32 <soundnfury> it could be <font>
15:08:13 <Gregor> <font face="comic sans">THIS IS MY WEB PAGE IT IS UNDER CONSTRUCTION I LEARNED EVERYTHING I KNOW FROM W3SCHOOLS</font>
15:08:47 <fizzie> <img src="under_construction.gif">
15:08:57 <fizzie> It's one of those animated road sign ones.
15:09:20 -!- calamari has joined.
15:09:36 <fizzie> <img src="rotating_skull.gif"> too.
15:09:38 <Lumpio-> Oh yes
15:09:45 <soundnfury> Actually, for a typography nut and kerning obsessive, I'm surprisingly relaxed about Comic Sans
15:09:49 <Lumpio-> I was looking for an animated "under construction" gif but google image search found none .__.
15:09:55 <soundnfury> it's Helvetica I hate
15:09:58 <Lumpio-> I want the one with the lemmings
15:10:13 <Lumpio-> Also <IMG SRC="animated_fire.gif">
15:11:40 <soundnfury> although Real Men use monospace. And then kern it anyway https://github.com/ec429/monokern
15:12:16 <Lumpio-> Why is there a bell.wav file in there
15:12:17 <Gregor> soundnfury: The web page for that site... is unreadable.
15:12:18 <Lumpio-> Do I even want to know
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15:12:33 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/legit.html
15:12:35 <mroman> ^- Like that.
15:13:17 <soundnfury> Gregor: d'you mean github, or the linked jttlov.no-ip.org?
15:13:24 <soundnfury> if the former, not my fault
15:13:28 <Gregor> soundnfury: The linked one.
15:13:33 <Gregor> soundnfury: The colors, man. The COLORS.
15:13:49 <Taneb> Hello
15:13:53 <Gregor> Why dark blue on black? WHYYY?
15:14:05 <soundnfury> Lumpio-: because I haven't yet learned how to make X trigger a _proper_ terminal bell, so I'm using aplay :shameface:
15:14:21 <mroman> hm.
15:14:26 <Lumpio-> D:
15:14:26 <soundnfury> Gregor: If you mean the *colours*, it's light blue, not dark blue, text, ffs
15:14:29 <Lumpio-> It's YOU
15:14:52 <Gregor> soundnfury: That is not light blue. It is, at best, lukewarm blue. It is bad.
15:15:18 <soundnfury> Gregor: I choose to not care
15:15:23 <Gregor> *shrugs*
15:15:28 <soundnfury> *shrugs also*
15:17:01 <mroman> I need a rotating gif.
15:20:30 <mroman> a... much better.
15:49:58 <calamari> Lumpio-: http://www.squidoo.com/under-construction-gif
15:51:41 <Lumpio-> oh dear @comments
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17:14:33 <nooga> i'm confused by leg/peg
17:15:05 <nortti> why?
17:15:08 <nooga> i don't know when semantic actions are performed when rules use quantifiers
17:15:09 <nooga> like
17:15:38 <nooga> x = y ('|' y)*
17:16:54 <nooga> how am I supposed to build binary syntax tree from that
17:22:10 <nooga> huh?
17:29:41 <fizzie> Maybe you should just rewrite it to use recursion instead.
17:30:07 <fizzie> (I don't know anything about peglegs.)
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17:32:30 <nooga> fizzie: I could... I just wanted to try the leg way
17:36:38 <AnotherTest> are there any esolangs where only symbols (not keywords) are used (similar to APL)
17:39:04 <Gregor> ... Brainfuck.
17:39:54 <Gregor> (And dozens of others)
17:41:32 <AnotherTest> Gregor: Sorry, should have been more specific. I meant a large set of symbols
17:42:12 <AnotherTest> that would include unicode symbols such as ∊, ∘, × or ↓
17:43:51 <AnotherTest> so I think I should have said "are there any esolangs where mainly non-ASCII symbols (not keywords) are used (similar to APL)"
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17:46:18 <Taneb> Hello
17:48:56 <nooga> AnotherTest: SADOL
17:49:20 <nooga> umm
17:49:23 <nooga> no, not really
17:50:19 <AnotherTest> nooga: well it uses quite a lot of symbols but I think they are all ASCII(?)
17:50:27 <nooga> yup
17:50:36 <nooga> i didn't read the whole question
17:51:59 <nooga> now
17:52:12 <nooga> i need to fight with undocumented peg leg
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18:01:53 <soundnfury> AnotherTest: I don't think there's any point writing such an esolang, because APL's already esoteric ;)
18:03:34 <AnotherTest> soundnfury: Perhaps that's true indeed ;)
18:03:56 <Taneb> tswett, did anything come of your brackets idea?
18:04:31 <AnotherTest> soundfury: well I don't think it was intention
18:05:44 <olsner> I think APL is one of those languages where opinion differs on whether it fits in the "esoteric" category, since it was made and used for real purposes
18:06:02 <Taneb> It has been made esoteric by context?
18:06:28 <Taneb> A programming language written in Linear B would be pretty esoteric nowadays, regardless of its origin
18:06:37 <olsner> oh, this is scary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)#Extensions
18:06:48 <olsner> OOP, .NET, *ActiveX*, XML-array conversion primitives, all in APL :S
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18:20:19 <nooga> what
18:20:21 <nooga> ast.c:47:31: error: C does not support default arguments
18:20:25 <nooga> -- clang
18:22:23 <fizzie> Well, isn't that just true?
18:24:40 <tswett> Taneb: nope, not really.
18:25:01 <AnotherTest> fizzie: as far as I know C does support them (well normally)
18:25:12 <fizzie> AnotherTest: C++ does; C certainly doesn't.
18:25:32 <Gregor> Yeah, C doesn't support default arguments.
18:25:35 <fizzie> If by "default arguments" you mean the usual int foo(int x = 0) {...} kind of things.
18:25:35 <shachaf> Which is good because they're the devil.
18:25:37 <Gregor> I have no idea where you'd get the notion that it does.
18:25:49 <fizzie> Gregor: By compiling all your C code with a C++ compiler? :p
18:25:58 <Gregor> *vomit*
18:26:04 <AnotherTest> Really? Well probably I'm always using C++
18:26:06 <fizzie> The C++ FAQ advocates that. :p
18:26:19 <Gregor> The C++ FAQ advocates a lot of bad ideas.
18:26:28 <Gregor> For instance: using C++.
18:26:38 <AnotherTest> Gregor: I like C++.
18:26:45 <shachaf> Gregor: The C++ FAQ advocates that?
18:26:52 <Gregor> AnotherTest: Well there's no accounting for taste *shrugs*
18:27:24 <AnotherTest> Gregor: I have some good reasons (well I think they are good). But I can see why people dislike the language too.
18:27:24 <fizzie> "BTW there is another way to handle this whole thing: compile all your code (even your C-style code) using a C++ compiler. That pretty much eliminates the need to mix C and C++, plus it will cause you to be more careful (and possibly —hopefully!— discover some bugs) in your C-style code. The down-side is that you'll need to update your C-style code in certain ways, basically because the ...
18:27:30 <fizzie> ... C++ compiler is more careful/picky than your C compiler. The point is that the effort required to clean up your C-style code may be less than the effort required to mix C and C++, and as a bonus you get cleaned up C-style code." (C++ FAQ)
18:27:52 <Gregor> lol
18:28:04 <fizzie> See, it'll even make things cleaner.
18:28:23 <Gregor> I have a bit of C tomfoolery I've been using for years, buffer.h.
18:28:27 <Gregor> It /does not compile/ with a C++ compiler.
18:28:32 <Gregor> I use it in virtually every project I write.
18:28:36 <fizzie> You should clean it up so that it does.
18:28:38 <Gregor> I am wholly satisfied with this situation.
18:28:46 <fizzie> You might find bugs.
18:28:51 <AnotherTest> You can't *just* compile C code with C++
18:28:57 <AnotherTest> compilers
18:29:00 <Gregor> *duh*
18:30:41 <Taneb> tswett, :(
18:30:49 <AnotherTest> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_of_C_and_C%2B%2B seems like there is a nice page if you want to make the change
18:31:34 <fizzie> !c int f(int c = 0) { return c; } int main(void) { return f(); }
18:31:35 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
18:31:36 <fizzie> !cxx int f(int c = 0) { return c; } int main(void) { return f(); }
18:31:42 <EgoBot> No output.
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18:31:50 <fizzie> (A skientifik eksperiment.)
18:32:21 <Gregor> AnotherTest: In case it wasn't obvious, I am not only satisfied, but overjoyed to be writing code that does not work with C++ compilers.
18:32:51 <Gregor> !c int main() { int x; printf("%d\n", sizeof(x)); }
18:32:53 <EgoBot> 4
18:32:54 <Gregor> !cxx int main() { int x; printf("%d\n", sizeof(x)); }
18:32:58 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
18:33:02 <Gregor> Bam.
18:33:25 <fizzie> Some time ago we had a discussion where we iterated different ways of making code that compiles on both but does different things. It had all the usual suspects, like character constant type differences etc.
18:33:28 <AnotherTest> Gregor: don't you miss the 1000 lines of error messages caused by a typo in a template name?
18:35:53 <fizzie> I kind of liked http://p.zem.fi/zdga even though it's one of the cheaty ways.
18:36:31 <fizzie> Gregor: Also shame on you for the above; should be %zu or (int)sizeof ...
18:36:57 <Gregor> fizzie: Yes yes it should, but that's not what I was demonstrating. Also your code is horrible and evil and you should feel bad.
18:42:02 <tswett> Gregor: okay, I feel like there's a joke you're making that I'm not getting.
18:42:20 <tswett> You said that buffer.h doesn't compile with a C++ compiler, and implied that it does compile with a C compiler.
18:42:34 <tswett> I'm guessing that buffer.h uses some C tomfoolery that C++ doesn't support. Is that correct?
18:42:45 <Gregor> “Tomfoolery”
18:42:52 <Gregor> I demonstrated exactly the “tomfoolery” above.
18:44:07 <pikhq_> tswett: You actually have to *work* to get C working in C++.
18:44:10 <AnotherTest> C tomfoolery would be the absence of strong type checking? :D
18:44:28 <pikhq_> tswett: Merely implicit casts from void* don't work.
18:44:42 <Gregor> AnotherTest: If you think that C++ has strong type checking, you're an idiot.
18:44:43 <pikhq_> And that comes up whenever you do memory allocation in idiomatic C.
18:45:27 <Deewiant> !cxx int main() { int x; return printf("%zu\n", sizeof x) < 0 ? EXIT_FAILURE : EXIT_SUCCESS; }
18:45:30 <Gregor> It merely lacks the biggest hole in C's weak typing.
18:45:31 <EgoBot> Does not compile.
18:45:43 <pikhq_> Gregor: And not even.
18:45:47 <AnotherTest> Gregor: some statement that is
18:45:56 <pikhq_> void* casts are still perfectly feasible in C++.
18:46:01 <pikhq_> They're just *explicit*.
18:46:26 <AnotherTest> Having explicit casts does not mean you don't have strong type checking
18:46:28 <pikhq_> You simply need to say "Yes, I mean to abuse the weak typing".
18:46:50 <Gregor> <AnotherTest> Having explicit casts does not mean you don't have strong type checking // having explicit or implicit casts which may succeed when the true type is not as specified is by definition lacking strong typing.
18:47:13 <pikhq_> AnotherTest: There's no type checking on the casts is the thing!
18:47:28 <AnotherTest> the programmer just decides to not use strong checking by casting
18:47:33 <Gregor> If you're arguing that C++ without casts is strongly typed, that may (or may not) be the case, but is rather boring.
18:47:46 <Gregor> Also it's not since no array bounds checking *shrugs*
18:47:47 <AnotherTest> but the language still offers it(although it can be chosen not to use it)
18:47:56 <AnotherTest> in C, there is no strong checking by default
18:48:03 <pikhq_> Gregor: C++ still has implicit casts.
18:48:11 <pikhq_> Gregor: Just significantly fewer.
18:48:23 <Gregor> pikhq_: I thought it only had typesafe implicit casts though?
18:48:30 <Gregor> And no implicit pointer casts whatsoever
18:48:34 <Gregor> Erm
18:48:38 <Gregor> Except between related classes of course
18:49:24 <pikhq_> Gregor: Eh, probably. ... Except that the type promotion from float to double might give you unwanted excess precision.
18:49:42 <pikhq_> (mind you, you get the same damned problem just using x87 floats.)
18:49:42 <AnotherTest> Gregor: Bjarne Stroustrup at least claims he added strong checking, does that make him an idiot?
18:49:47 <Gregor> pikhq_: That seems unrelated to type safety, to me.
18:49:54 <pikhq_> Gregor: Meh, probably.
18:50:10 <Gregor> AnotherTest: Big name implied big thing, is big name an idiot?
18:50:21 <fizzie> Gregor: Base *p; Subclass *q = dynamic_cast<Subclass*>(p); will check the type for you during the cast, if you like.
18:50:47 <Gregor> fizzie: At no point did I make the claim that safe casts don't exist >_>
18:50:55 <pikhq_> AnotherTest: Have you played with Haskell before?
18:50:56 <Gregor> Although they do have the ugliest cast syntax conceivable :)
18:51:15 <pikhq_> (or an ML-variant?)
18:51:28 <pikhq_> AnotherTest: *That* is static strong types.
18:51:30 <AnotherTest> pkhq_: I intend on doing so. I regret to say I have not yet really looked into it well.
18:52:20 <AnotherTest> Well C++ has at least *some* static type checking
18:52:31 <Gregor> So does C.
18:52:37 <AnotherTest> s/static/strong static
18:52:57 <AnotherTest> C has less for sure
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18:53:15 <pikhq_> And both are fairly low on the scale in an absolute sense.
18:53:15 <Gregor> I don't know if it's meaningful for a language to have “some” strong typing.
18:53:43 <AnotherTest> Gregor: it probably is; something is better then nothing in this case I think
18:53:47 <pikhq_> Gregor: Well, you can consider typing to be a continuüm between weak and strong.
18:53:48 <AnotherTest> *than
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18:54:14 <Gregor> pikhq_: I challenge you to find a single English word in which “uu” is a diaeresis.
18:54:19 <pikhq_> If you do this, then C and C++ aren't absolutely at the weak end, but aren't *that* far fron there anyways.
18:54:20 <Gregor> Erm
18:54:23 <Gregor> Sory, is /not/.
18:54:28 <Gregor> X_X
18:54:30 <Gregor> *Sorry
18:55:03 <pikhq_> Gregor: Anything with double-u. Which in historical writing was literally written "uu" or "vv". :)
18:55:11 <Gregor> pikhq_: Pff. Cheating.
18:55:20 <pikhq_> UUhat do you mean, cheating? :P
18:55:40 <pikhq_> Anyways, "muumuu".
18:55:59 <fizzie> "uuhat", or "uû" as it is often written.
18:56:11 <Deewiant> "vacuum", in at least US dialects.
18:56:16 <pikhq_> Good point.
18:56:19 <fizzie> Uû do you mean it's not written like that?
18:56:26 <Gregor> Deewiant: Good'n!
18:56:27 <pikhq_> "Vacuum" is definitely not a diaeresis in US English.
18:56:31 <Gregor> pikhq_: I accept your diaeresis.
18:56:36 <pikhq_> Gregor: \o/
18:56:37 <myndzi> |
18:56:37 <myndzi> /´\
18:56:38 <Gregor> (Mark)
18:56:55 <Gregor> C++ removes one gap in C's typing (others too, maybe?), and adds a new type hierarchy which is itself, without explicit casts, strongly typed. To me, arguing that it's “more” strongly typed based solely on the grounds that its completely new additions are themselves “more” strongly typed seems odd, particularly since we came to this discussion via compiling C code in C++, so would not be writing idiomatic C++ anyway.
18:57:19 <pikhq_> And would be having to move away from idiomatic C to do that as well.
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18:57:51 <pikhq_> (using implicit void* casts is *very* idiomatic C)
18:58:24 <AnotherTest> Gregor: adding a strong type check for any language feature could be seen as an addition to the language (is one), so I'm not sure if your point is valid
18:59:35 <pikhq_> AnotherTest: Eh, you're still dealing with a language where char* can alias any other pointer. :)
18:59:50 <Gregor> And no array bounds checking, and ALL POINTERS ARE ARRAYS.
19:00:04 <AnotherTest> But as to porting C to C++: It's probably not worth it
19:00:05 <Gregor> SomeObjectType *foo = new SomeObjectType; foo[-1].lol
19:00:24 <AnotherTest> std::vector
19:00:26 <AnotherTest> yay!
19:00:37 <AnotherTest> std::string
19:00:38 <AnotherTest> yay!
19:00:42 <pikhq_> NULL[foo].lol
19:01:03 <Gregor> pikhq_: I /think/ that would need a cast as NULL is the wrong type ;)
19:01:22 <pikhq_> Gregor: Kay, fine. ((uintptr_t)NULL)[foo]
19:01:29 <AnotherTest> You can always circumvent static checks(delete nullptr; all day long)
19:01:31 <Gregor> Mucho better.
19:01:41 <AnotherTest> Well maybe not always, but most of the time
19:01:55 <pikhq_> Or just 0[foo].
19:02:15 <Gregor> AnotherTest: If you'd like to play the “define all holes as circumvention” game, we can do that just as easily with C.
19:02:43 <pikhq_> And you'd still be dealing in a language where a char* aliases all pointers.
19:02:49 <pikhq_> Well, can alias.
19:03:12 <AnotherTest> Gregor: my_function(1, 2, 3); /* but wants 4 args */
19:03:42 <AnotherTest> I wouldn't call that circumvention, it's just human error not found by the compiler
19:03:51 <Gregor> AnotherTest: That's illegal with a complete prototype in C, and legal with varargs in either.
19:04:15 <pikhq_> (*(void(*)(int,int,int))myfunction)(1,2,3); // Suck it.
19:04:32 <nortti> :P
19:04:48 <Gregor> No, I'm seriously trying to figure out wtf AnotherTest is trying to demonstrate here... JavaScript has that flaw, C does not.
19:04:51 <fizzie> Regarding std::vector, I think it's kinda funny that C++ goes and makes "void f(const char* const* p); ... char **q; f(q);" legal, but then when you feel your conscience and want to make that a vector, it's no longer possible, since std::vector<char *> certainly can't go to a function expecting const std::vector<const char *>.
19:05:30 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, are there any good reason for Tcl arrays to not be first-class?
19:05:34 <Taneb> edwardk, the sudden change in comonad seemed very sudden
19:05:43 <pikhq_> fizzie: Yeah. Templates are weird.
19:06:01 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Yes: Tcl "arrays" are nothing more than variables with a certain class of names.
19:06:14 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: They just happen to have a more convenient implementation behind the scenes.
19:06:55 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: In *principle*, Tcl could be implemented without them actually existing. The array proc would just have to do more work.
19:07:35 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Also, beware that they're poorly named.
19:07:37 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, but why have these non-first-class things with no built-in first-class alternative until 8.5?
19:07:50 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Tcl arrays are hash tables.
19:08:12 <pikhq_> Erm, hash maps.
19:08:58 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Because they're not even there at all. That they're hash maps rather than just variables of name in the form foo(bar) is an implementation detail.
19:10:14 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, what did people do before 8.5 in places where someone would use a dictionary?
19:10:37 <AnotherTest> Gregor: http://ideone.com/d7Dv3
19:11:20 <pikhq_> Use variables of form foo(bar)?
19:11:31 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Also, keep in mind, strictly speaking dicts don't exist either.
19:11:56 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: That they are hash tables rather than strings of a particular form is an implementation detail.
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19:12:24 <Gregor> AnotherTest: "That's illegal WITH A COMPLETE PROTOTYPE in C". The particular example you gave (expects 4) doesn't fit your rather unlikely pattern at all.
19:13:10 <AnotherTest> Gregor: many code has been written like that I believe
19:13:15 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Everything in Tcl is a string. Some commands happen to treat strings in a particular way. The Tcl implementation stores strings in a format more convenient for those commands as an implementation detail.
19:13:45 -!- calamari has joined.
19:13:45 <AnotherTest> and writing void as arguments doesn't seem logic
19:13:50 -!- calamari has left.
19:13:57 <AnotherTest> (maybe because the creator of C++ invented that)
19:14:08 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Even friggin' *numbers* aren't really first-class in Tcl. They're just strings containing digits.
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19:14:39 <Sgeo_> That's all well and good, but I can
19:14:47 <Sgeo_> I can't pass an array to a proc the way I can pass a dict
19:14:56 <Gregor> AnotherTest: The example you showed only has issues because a zero-argument function written as "()" in C is, for historical/hysterical reasons, variadic. It ONLY causes an issue if: 1) You are actually calling incorrectly-written zero-parameter functions this way, which is not a type safety issue, 2) you have written your prototypes incorrectly, or 3) you are calling functions without prototypes, which is a warning by default in every modern C compiler.
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19:15:10 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: [array get foo]
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19:15:42 <Gregor> The (2) case is only harmful in the case where you've written your prototypes as variadic even though your functions take multiple arguments, which is enormously unlikely.
19:15:43 <edwardk> Taneb: sorry bout that. you mean the major version jump?
19:15:49 <Taneb> Yeah
19:15:58 <Taneb> I'm not complaining, it just seemed to come out of nowhere?
19:16:32 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Or, pass the name of the array and the proc peeks up the stack using upvar.
19:16:41 <Taneb> brb
19:16:52 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, are arrays and dicts identical in terms of their string ..... I don't want to say "representation", although that word works for arrays
19:16:52 <Gregor> AnotherTest: However, I am inclined to agree with you that this is a second C hole that C++ plugged. This sort of “implicit” variadicity should never have existed.
19:16:55 <Gregor> Oh, he's gone ...
19:17:02 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: It is "string representation".
19:17:12 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: And, yes, they are the same string representation.
19:18:42 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, do you have opinions of the various OO libraries?
19:18:48 <Sgeo_> I read a blog post praising Snit
19:18:51 <pikhq_> Kinda like Snit.
19:19:02 <Sgeo_> Apparently Tcl 8.6's OO is based on XOTcl
19:19:26 <pikhq_> Yeah, but you're probably going to pretend it doesn't exist.
19:19:30 <Sgeo_> ?
19:19:47 <pikhq_> Tcl 8.6 OO is intended for use as a more efficient backend of the various OO libraries.
19:19:54 <Sgeo_> Ah
19:19:57 <pikhq_> It is Pain to use straight.
19:20:29 <Sgeo_> Why would it be a pain to use straight if it's XOTcl-inspired? Missing a few XOTcl features, but is XOTcl a pain?
19:22:21 <pikhq_> Think "using Gobjects straight"-ish.
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19:23:41 <Sgeo_> Never touched GObjects
19:24:39 <Sgeo_> Is something like this morally acceptable, or is there a better command:
19:24:51 <Sgeo_> dict create {*}{a 5 b 6 d 7}
19:25:09 <Sgeo_> Say, if the dictionary will have a lot of items and I want to space things out on multiple lines
19:26:18 <pikhq_> Couldn't you just do set foo {a 5 b 7 d 7} ?
19:27:41 <Sgeo_> Are there any efficiency reasons not to?
19:28:11 <pikhq_> Uh, not really. Behind the scenes it'll get converted to a dict internally as soon as you use it as one.
19:28:22 <pikhq_> Making it essentially the same cost as that dict create call.
19:28:37 <Sgeo_> Ah\
19:28:47 <Taneb> Back
19:32:08 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, why does the Tcl community love Metakit so much, and why aren't there Metakit bindings into languages other than Python Tcl and I forget the third?
19:33:26 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: It's friggin' handy being able to stick a Tcl app into a single binary.
19:33:53 <Sgeo_> SQLite couldn't have been used for the purpose?
19:34:11 <pikhq_> I suppose it could have been.
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19:34:47 <Sgeo_> I think the Tcl app in a single binary thing is one of the things drawing me to Tcl actually
19:35:22 <pikhq_> Also means you get to be bitter at Java in a bit...
19:35:31 <Sgeo_> ?
19:36:25 <pikhq_> For a while, Sun was promoting Tcl as a write-once run-everywhere language.
19:36:28 <pikhq_> They dropped it for Java.
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19:37:02 <Sgeo_> Ah
19:37:54 <Gregor> Hm, modern Fythe has no binary format, for no good reason.
19:38:16 <Gregor> Is it cheating for a binary format to involve zlib?
19:38:40 <olsner> why would it be cheating?
19:39:00 <Gregor> Because it's a way to hide the fact that my binary format is a text format ^_<
19:39:12 <pikhq_> Because it's actually work to implement DEFLATE? :P
19:39:36 <olsner> xor with 64 or 96 and it will look like binary gobbledygook, probably
19:39:47 <Gregor> lol
19:40:01 <Gregor> The only sensible portable format for Fythe is s-expressions.
19:40:17 <pikhq_> Speaking of, *god dammit why is my CRC32 off*.
19:40:33 <olsner> I was hoping for "The only sensible portable format for Fythe is gobbledygook"
19:40:40 <Gregor> lol
19:40:45 <Sgeo_> "Tcllib has an approximatley yearly release schedule. Version 1.10 has been released September 12, 2007."
19:41:22 <pikhq_> http://sprunge.us/SCTK Everything works except that sometimes the CRC-32 is wrong.
19:41:35 <pikhq_> *But only sometimes*.
19:41:35 <pikhq_> :(
19:41:40 <Gregor> Actually, with a system like Fythe, what I really need is a portable “VM image” format.
19:43:23 <tswett> So, it occurs to me that I need to send doubles over a network.
19:43:48 <tswett> Now, before we start, a file written in C can perfectly well link with C++ libraries, right?
19:44:05 <olsner> of course, but will it work? you can never know
19:44:09 <calamari> xor each character with the result of the last character after it was xor'ed?
19:44:13 <tswett> Right, right.
19:44:34 <pikhq_> tswett: Yes, just have appropriate use of extern "C" in the header files..
19:45:03 <tswett> Oh, good. Let me just rewrite all hundred or so header files to use that.
19:45:05 <tswett> Okay, done.
19:45:12 <olsner> I haven't figured out if you're supposed to be able to rely on that (is anything about combining C and C++ actually defined by the standard?), but in practice it's fine
19:45:23 <olsner> ... provided you have extern "C" where appropriate
19:45:27 <tswett> olsner: what else would extern "C" be for?
19:45:30 <pikhq_> olsner: Yes, extern "C" is part of the spec.
19:45:41 <olsner> tswett: invoking undefined behavior or something?
19:45:51 <tswett> Besides, isn't pretty much every programming language ever supposed to interact with C?
19:45:52 <pikhq_> It's functionally a light-weight FFI.
19:46:47 <tswett> Anyway, sending doubles over a network. Can I just cast a double* to a void* and read eight bytes?
19:47:24 <Sgeo_> Would Snit need to exist if there was one Tcl OO system from the start?
19:47:33 <olsner> you can definitely read sizeof(double) bytes, but I don't know how strictly defined the internal representation of double is
19:47:42 <Sgeo_> Because one of the key ideas seems to be treating any object from any object system as an object
19:48:03 <Sgeo_> If there was one Tcl OO system, there wouldn't be competing systems to treat identically
19:48:04 <tswett> I hope that "double" never means anything other than a double-precision floating-point.
19:48:54 <tswett> I mean, if I treat a double as bytes on one system, and then treat those same bytes as a double on a *different* system, am I guaranteed to have the same double each time, or not?
19:50:57 <olsner> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2701529/recording-reading-c-doubles-in-the-ieee-754-interchange-format suggests you cannot assume that
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19:57:25 <Vorpal> why does lightly touching a "dead" pixel on a TFT sometimes fix the issue? I had a red subpixel stuck in the on-state today, and touching it gently (through a microfibre cloth) fixed the issue. Wikipedia mentions that it can sometimes fix the issue but doesn't give any explanation why that is.
19:57:25 <lambdabot> Vorpal: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:57:32 <Vorpal> @messages
19:57:32 <lambdabot> nortti said 1d 5h 30m 51s ago: in case you missed these two 17:21 < nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 17:24 < nortti>
19:57:32 <lambdabot> Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P)
19:58:58 <Vorpal> nortti, speaking of cp, that is like one thing that annoyed me on Android. I had to install busybox using cat to copy it from the sdcard
19:59:10 <nortti> :P
19:59:26 <nortti> yeah. why is implementing cp so hard?
20:00:08 <Vorpal> (which is not actually an sdcard, just a very weird fuse mapping of a directory in the internal flash memory that mangles permissions to look behave kind of like vfat.
20:00:22 <Vorpal> s/look//
20:00:37 <Vorpal> (note to self: proof read /after/ editing)
20:01:35 <Vorpal> speaking of that, why is the MTP behaviour in ubuntu so erratic.
20:01:56 <Vorpal> it worked for a while out of box, and now it doesn't.
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20:08:03 <pikhq> tswett: You are *not* guaranteed that at all.
20:08:19 <pikhq> tswett: A "double" can be any sort of floating point number.
20:08:34 <pikhq> As can a float or a long double.
20:09:56 <pikhq> tswett: Besides which, you couldn't assume that *even if* you knew doubles where always IEEE 754 double-precision floats.
20:10:01 <pikhq> tswett: Endianness!
20:11:18 <pikhq> To be portable you either need to deal in the string representation, or encode into the interchange format manually.
20:12:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, C?
20:12:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
20:12:34 <Vorpal> if so iirc there are some defines from C99 and onwards
20:12:41 <Vorpal> that tell you if it is IEEE or not
20:13:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, you can tell *if* it's IEEE floats or not. You still have to handle endianness.
20:13:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, autoconf
20:13:44 <Vorpal> (or similar)
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20:14:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Wrong answer!
20:14:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh?
20:14:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: It feels very stupid and wrong to go #if BIG_ENDIAN swap_bytes(); #endif
20:15:07 <Vorpal> don't forget #elsif defined(PDP_ENDIAN)
20:15:31 <pikhq> When what you're actually *doing* is just serialization to a known format.
20:15:46 <pikhq> If your code *cares* about the system's endianness you're doing it wrong.
20:16:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway you could just do #ifdef BIG_EDIAN\n#define htond ...
20:16:57 <Vorpal> since htonl/htons and so on are essentially that, only defined by the system
20:17:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Or you could be sane and just do char *serialised_foo = {foo, foo >> 8, foo >> 16, foo >> 24}
20:17:43 <olsner> Vorpal: knowing about endianness is wrong
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20:18:06 <pikhq> (note: only works if foo is unsigned.)
20:18:19 <olsner> writing portable formats in the sane way will not require having any clue what format you're starting with
20:18:22 <Vorpal> olsner, well, the system doesn't provide a hton*/ntoh* set of calls for floating point, which would be really useful
20:18:22 <pikhq> (and uint32_t)
20:18:43 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Vorpal: Or you could be sane and just do char *serialised_foo = {foo, foo >> 8, foo >> 16, foo >> 24} <-- foo was a floating point no?
20:18:53 <Vorpal> hm
20:19:02 <Vorpal> you serialise a floating point to a fixed point number?
20:19:18 <Vorpal> oh wait
20:19:31 <Vorpal> what does >> do on a double?
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20:19:59 <Sgeo_> pikhq, is it fair to say that it's impossible to have an object capability system in Tcl because any unique object could be brute-forced?
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20:20:15 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Seems so.
20:20:16 <olsner> Vorpal: I think you shouldn't do that
20:20:26 <Vorpal> olsner, you mean what pikhq_ suggested?
20:20:33 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, that's kind of sad
20:20:39 <Vorpal> olsner, or what I suggested?
20:20:45 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I was suggesting that on a uint32_t.
20:20:47 <olsner> Vorpal: do >> on a double
20:20:56 <Vorpal> pikhq_, doesn't solve it if you have a double
20:21:03 <Sgeo_> Although I am more alarmed by the impossibility of code-walking
20:21:05 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The correct serialization on a double is more complex.
20:21:16 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I thought that was the topic though
20:21:21 <olsner> Vorpal: solutions for uint32_t are not generally applicable on doubles
20:21:32 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway for uint32_t you just use htonl/ntohl
20:21:35 <pikhq_> If you want it in IEEE 754 exchange format, you will need to actually compute what the double is in that format.
20:21:57 <Vorpal> uint32_t ntohl(uint32_t netlong);
20:22:04 <pikhq_> Vorpal: *No you don't*, you pretend those stupid god-damned functions don't exist, byte-swapping is *the wrong solution*.
20:22:04 <Vorpal> according to my man page
20:22:22 <pikhq_> Vorpal: What you do is serialize things in the format you want.
20:22:24 <pikhq_> And that's all.
20:22:28 <Vorpal> pikhq_, so how do you work with *nix sockets?
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20:22:37 <Vorpal> iirc several of those calls require those functions
20:22:52 <pikhq_> Vorpal: You call it a god-damned retarded API, and deal.
20:22:53 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, is there a reason tcllib has two different OO libraries?
20:22:59 <Vorpal> right
20:23:01 <olsner> just pretend that htonl are not endian-related but are "silly things you call to work with unix sockets"
20:23:08 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Otherwise, you serialize things in the format you want.
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20:24:22 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: If it's a pure Tcl library, it can go in Tcllib. There's not much vetting for redundancy.
20:24:43 <Vorpal> why exactly are those functions silly though? Silly to use with the socket API yes (would be more sensible if it used native endian and converted internally). But not silly in general
20:25:44 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Because they're up there with casting pointers to and from int in correctness.
20:26:05 <Sgeo_> It occurs to me that Tequila would be a very very good thing for use in implementing Network Headache
20:26:16 <pikhq_> Vorpal: You are not trying to convert from host byte order to network byte order, you are merely serializing data.
20:26:26 <Vorpal> pikhq_, there is a difference though, POSIX specifies hton*/ntoh*, but casting pointers is very clearly undefined.
20:26:30 <pikhq_> Vorpal: So god-damned serialize the data.
20:26:54 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, I'm now wondering if I should implement Network Headache
20:27:00 <Vorpal> but sure, you have a point in that serialising data is a different task
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20:27:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, new esolang?
20:27:25 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, old one
20:27:26 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Network_Headache
20:27:28 <Vorpal> ah
20:27:39 <Sgeo_> ....oh, hmm
20:28:14 <pikhq_> Especially because hton*/ntoh* only helps you in the case when you're trying to bludgeon uint32_ts and uint16_ts into big-endian format anyways.
20:28:19 <Sgeo_> Well, there's already an implementiation in Pythonm
20:28:34 <pikhq_> i.e. they don't even solve the problem.
20:29:01 <Vorpal> that would require always connected. Reminds me of certain forms of DRM
20:29:13 <Vorpal> (the page that Sgeo_ linked that is)
20:29:17 <olsner> I think a lot of programmers share the incorrect view on this (byteswapping and endian-#ifdeffing vs serialization), I wonder if there's a succinct description somewhere on why they're doing it wrong
20:29:33 <Vorpal> pikhq_, btw for serialising, what about singed integers?
20:29:56 <Vorpal> you could have issues there (2-complement, 1-complement, sign bit)
20:30:02 <pikhq_> Vorpal: *Clearly* you'll need to write them out in the format you want.
20:30:16 <olsner> sing them backwards until they have been unsung
20:30:30 <pikhq_> Vorpal: If you want 2s complement, you'll need to stick the absolute value in an unsigned number, bitwise not, and add 1.
20:30:40 <Vorpal> pikhq_, and using text files is even worse. What if you move the file to an EBCDIC machine (from an ASCII machine)
20:30:45 <pikhq_> It's either that or assume you're dealing with numbers of known representation.
20:31:07 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Nah, assume UTF-8. Anything else is broken in profound ways.
20:31:44 <olsner> isn't the conversion to unsigned defined to work the same way as "reinterpreting the bits as 2's complement" would?
20:31:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_, the reality however is that one of the most popular operating systems use UTF-16. Which is indeed broken (BOM urgh)
20:31:51 <pikhq_> olsner: Is it?
20:31:56 <Vorpal> in fact the most popular OS
20:32:16 <olsner> iirc, it's "add 2^n until the value is in range of the unsigned type"
20:32:23 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes, Windows is a maximally broken platform.
20:32:23 <olsner> where n is the number of bits in the type
20:32:50 <pikhq_> Vorpal: You cannot write compliant C that handles all filenames on the platform currently.
20:33:01 <pikhq_> olsner: Okay, then.
20:33:15 <pikhq_> So, just cast to unsigned and you've got it in 2's complement.
20:33:28 <Vorpal> indeed
20:33:36 <olsner> I remember thinking "oh, how clever of them to avoid invoking 2's complement in this definition"
20:33:39 <pikhq_> Well, that makes *that* easier.
20:34:02 <Vorpal> pikhq_, actually couldn't you use the posix layer on windows
20:34:17 <Vorpal> I wonder what that does wrt UTF-8/UTF-16
20:34:26 <olsner> probably something completely broken
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20:34:48 <olsner> perhaps it converts to ASCII replacing all characters above 0x7f with ?
20:37:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: I'm pretty sure that just hands you the UTF-8 file names.
20:37:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: Windows filesystems post-LFN deal in Unicode natively.
20:37:42 <Vorpal> hm
20:37:48 <nortti> LFN?
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20:37:52 <pikhq> Long file names.
20:39:23 <pikhq> That legacy encodings are the *only* supported encodings for char strings on Win32 is just a stupid, stupid design decision that they *work* to maintain.
20:40:24 <Vorpal> how does NTFS store strings internally?
20:40:31 <Vorpal> of the filenames I mean
20:40:31 <pikhq> Pretty sure UTF-16.
20:40:46 <pikhq> Just like FAT LFNs.
20:40:51 <Vorpal> hm
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20:44:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, when you think about it, UTF8 is pretty crazy too
20:44:20 <rapido> anyone fond of prolog unification?
20:44:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: How so?
20:44:53 <rapido> unification is more generic than pattern matching
20:44:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: Keeping in mind that all Unicode transformation formats are inherently variable-width.
20:45:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is basically a compression scheme for UCS4, specialized to favour western texts
20:45:38 <Vorpal> using UCS4 and gzip/deflate/etc where needed would make more sense
20:45:54 <pikhq> Well, yes. Except that that's not the design goal.
20:46:25 <pikhq> The design goal is not to break everything which assumes a string is composed of series of bytes.
20:47:08 <pikhq> Making it so that Unicode 'just works' on nearly everything.
20:47:18 <Vorpal> indeed. Backward compatibility often (not always!) result in crazy and/or bad designs though
20:47:20 <pikhq> Except when a *certain* OS vendor actively works to break it.
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20:49:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, not considering backward compatibility however, UTF-8 (and all other variable-width encodings) are however stupid.
20:50:04 <Vorpal> in fact there is a lot of stupidity in unicode in general from that perspective
20:50:21 <kmc> there are actual unicode-specific compression schemes
20:50:24 <kmc> more complicated than utf-8
20:50:34 <kmc> why do you consider variable width encodings to be stupid?
20:50:42 <kmc> clearly some characters occur more often than others
20:50:51 <kmc> BMP characters occur vastly more often than non-BMP characters
20:51:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: Dude, Unicode could be *much* clearer if we went more variable-width on it.
20:51:22 <pikhq> There's no sense in all the precomposed hangul jamo.
20:52:08 <pikhq> Heck, in principle hanzi could all be a bunch of radicals. (admittedly, this'd make it hard to *render*. But, a couple hundred entries and it'd be Complete.)
20:52:38 <Vorpal> <kmc> clearly some characters occur more often than others <-- varies between languages
20:52:46 <Vorpal> sure, some are rare in all languages
20:53:07 <pikhq> But getting rid of the precomposed hangul jamo would be quite beneficial and an easy change.
20:53:19 <pikhq> (given that a system already has to deal with jamo composition)
20:53:36 <kmc> Vorpal: everything outside the BMP is extremely rare in all extant languages
20:53:41 <Vorpal> but as long as we make the minimum size 8 bits we will have to favour some languages
20:53:57 <Vorpal> kmc, sure, but all of BMP doesn't fit in a byte
20:54:00 <kmc> yeah
20:54:07 <kmc> so what
20:54:45 <pikhq> Vorpal: But the 7 bit range of Unicode is profoundly common in real-world data. Even in languages that don't use them at all.
20:55:03 <pikhq> (courtesy of nearly all text exchange formats being English-based)
20:55:34 <Vorpal> also it wasn't those bits of stupidity I was referring to in specific for the crazy bits of unicode. I was thinking about stuff like double-width letters having separate code points, or the blackboard bold math chars
20:55:40 <Vorpal> both of those are formatting
20:55:51 <Vorpal> which doesn't really belong in unicode
20:56:06 <pikhq> Yes, those are kinda ludicrous.
20:56:20 <pikhq> There for backwards-compat reasons.
20:56:32 <Vorpal> and the zero width space? I guess there must be some use case for it, but I can't think of one.
20:56:49 <pikhq> It's necessary for some languages.
20:56:57 <Vorpal> in what way?
20:57:20 <pikhq> Oh, sorry, that's zero-width non-joiner...
20:58:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Basically to indicate that a ligature is inappropriate.
20:58:10 -!- rapido has quit (Quit: rapido).
20:58:13 <Vorpal> you can't see a zero width space when written on paper (which all current scripts were intended for, or papyrus, or clay tablets and so on), so how could it change anything semantically
20:58:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, isn't zero width space separate from zero-width non-joiner though?
20:58:49 <pikhq> Yes, they are.
20:58:56 <pikhq> The zero-width non-joiner is semantics.
20:58:59 <Vorpal> so what is the point of the zero width space
20:59:24 <pikhq> The zero-width space is... Typesetting?
20:59:34 <Vorpal> which should indeed not be part of unicode.
20:59:38 <pikhq> Yeah, doesn't really belong in Unicode.
20:59:49 <pikhq> Unless we're going to expand the scope of it profoundly.
20:59:54 <pikhq> (which I'd call ludicrous
20:59:55 <pikhq> )
21:00:26 <Vorpal> exactly
21:01:03 <Vorpal> also the code point numbering is kind of weird. I seem to remember there are several separate blocks with math related symbols
21:01:12 <Vorpal> why
21:01:55 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:02:26 <Vorpal> apart from ASCII, is there anything else that the unicode codepoints are actually compatible with?
21:02:39 <olsner> latin1?
21:02:56 <Vorpal> olsner, doesn't åäö map differently between latin1 and unicode iirc?
21:03:01 <fizzie> No.
21:03:03 <Vorpal> or is that just with UTF-8?
21:03:20 <fizzie> The second block is directly ISO-8859-1.
21:03:29 <fizzie> Their UTF-8 expansions are two-byte, of course.
21:03:30 <pikhq> UTF-8 encodes them differently, but the low 8 bits of Unicode are ISO-8859-1.
21:03:30 <olsner> obviously, utf-8 will result in different sequences of bytes, but the numbering of the codepoints match latin-1
21:03:39 <Gregor> The Unicode CODEPOINTS are latin1 compatible, but there is no useful Unicode ENCODING that is.
21:03:43 <olsner> everyone the same thing at once!
21:03:47 <Gregor> YES
21:04:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
21:04:18 <fizzie> Zero-width no-break space (i.e. the same character as the BOM) has the excuse of having same semantics as zero-width word joiner but existing before that was added; the zero-width space (that is used for marking word break opportunities in scripts with no visible word spacing) is quite typographical, though.
21:04:39 <Vorpal> Gregor, there is always UCS1 ;)
21:04:39 <pikhq> You can convert ISO-8859-1 to UTF-16 just by adding NULL. :)
21:04:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Good one. :)
21:04:52 <Gregor> Vorpal: “useful”
21:05:27 <Vorpal> Gregor, it is highly useful. It offers perfect interoperability with a large group of legacy systems!
21:05:38 <fizzie> You can also (obviously) convert back from UTF-16 to ISO-8859-1 by dropping every other byte, and barfing if the dropped byte's not zero.
21:05:44 <nortti_> UCS1?
21:06:08 <pikhq> nortti_: 1-byte encoding of Unicode.
21:06:16 <nortti_> really?
21:06:18 -!- nothing has joined.
21:06:19 <olsner> nortti_: don't listen to Vorpal :)
21:06:27 <pikhq> nortti_: Formed by analogy with UCS-2 and UCS-4.
21:06:34 <fizzie> And UCS-16.
21:06:43 -!- nothing has changed nick to Guest33002.
21:06:51 <nortti_> `welcome Guest33002
21:06:54 <fizzie> It has the advantage where one codepoint fits neatly in a SSE register.
21:06:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, that would be one crazy encoding
21:06:59 <HackEgo> Guest33002: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:06:59 * Guest33002 waves
21:07:18 * Guest33002 will need to remember how to use IRC -- It's been a little while.
21:07:20 <olsner> UCS-16 allows a full GUID per character
21:07:23 <Gregor> UCS-0.5. 4 bits per codepoint. Need letters? TOO BAD.
21:07:30 <nortti_> :P
21:07:36 <kmc> what about baudot
21:07:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, UCS32 would work well with AVX
21:08:14 <nortti_> kmc: it was 5bit
21:08:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, though people might accidentally confuse UCS-16 and UCS-32 with UCS-2 and UCS-4, assuming that the numbers are referring to bits.
21:08:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and then there is the small matter of it covering a superset of unicode
21:09:11 <olsner> UTF-2
21:09:13 <olsner> should be possible
21:09:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily.
21:09:40 <nortti_> :P
21:09:49 <Gregor> olsner: Almost, it wouldn't really be “UTF” though, in that it wouldn't fit the patterns of the other.
21:09:50 <ion> :-D
21:09:59 <olsner> Vorpal: like with UCS-4, there is no problem if the encoding has plenty of extra space
21:10:02 <Vorpal> anyway one issue with any variaible-width encoding is that strlen() is O(n)
21:10:05 <Gregor> olsner: But yeah, it should be possible to have a per-bit “there are more bits” bit.
21:10:37 <olsner> Vorpal: and strlen is normally O(1)?
21:10:41 <fizzie> UTF-7 is quite different from UTF-8 anyway.
21:10:54 <ion> `addquote <fizzie> Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily.
21:10:58 <HackEgo> 851) <fizzie> Also, UCS-4096 has the advantage that each codepoint handily matches the page size of many architectures, so you can deal with them in memory easily.
21:11:09 <Vorpal> olsner, not in C no, but many languages store strings as (size,start*)
21:11:31 <Vorpal> I guess you could add a length field to that, but it sounds annoying to implement correctly
21:11:42 <Gregor> Vorpal: Doesn't help indexing anyway.
21:12:00 <Vorpal> Gregor, that too
21:12:06 <fizzie> You can do UTF-8 ropes just fine, though.
21:12:07 -!- Guest33002 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:12:27 <olsner> if you're indexing strings of text you're probably doing it wrong anyway
21:13:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Pssst, strlen() doesn't tell you anything useful except the number of chars taken by a string.
21:13:09 <Vorpal> iirc erlang store strings as a linked list of integers (bignum on demand) with the unicode codepoints. Seems like a reasonable representation in the circumstances
21:13:15 <pikhq> Vorpal: It is literally *useless* if you want to render it.
21:13:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: Even if you are rendering ASCII.
21:13:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, in C indeed. I meant a more general "string length" as is typically found in a high level language that doesn't assume fixed width chars
21:14:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, also string length works fine with a monospace font
21:14:10 <pikhq> It remains useless if you want to render it.
21:14:10 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:14:13 <Vorpal> (assuming no crazy double width letters)
21:14:16 <Vorpal> (or similar)
21:14:32 <pikhq> "Assuming it's trivial, it's trivial!"
21:14:45 <Vorpal> indeed!
21:15:28 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway character count is useful for other purposes.
21:15:35 <pikhq> Like?
21:16:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, I had pieces of homework that had a max letter count. More often they had max word count sure, but I have seen both.
21:16:47 <pikhq> Hey, look, it's a niche use!
21:16:48 <olsner> you used strlen to measure the size of your homework?
21:17:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, and there are many comment fields on web pages and similar that limit how many letters you can type. Twitter is an obvious example, though there are a lot more
21:17:12 <pikhq> ... That you probably have to iterate through anyways, unless you consider space and punctuation to be "letters".
21:17:34 <Vorpal> olsner, no, I obviously used the char count function in whatever editor I was using
21:17:42 <olsner> iirc twitter counts codepoints
21:17:48 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:17:59 <Vorpal> olsner, indeed, which means C strlen() would be bloody useless!
21:18:10 <pikhq> olsner: Nah, integers encoded with the UTF-8 encoding algorithm.
21:18:22 <olsner> Vorpal: indeed, so why did you bring it up?
21:18:34 <pikhq> Vorpal: Anyways, what you're advocating is premature optimization. You're trying to optimize a use-case that *doesn't matter*.
21:19:27 <pikhq> Hardly anything actually cares how many individual glyphs there are, so it doesn't matter to try to give you a 1-to-1 mapping between glyphs and encoding units.
21:19:27 <olsner> hmm, that's nice, did twitter forget to check the range of the utf-8 data you send them?
21:19:29 -!- edwardk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:19:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, no what I'm advocating is using UCS4 internally because such a representation is simpler to work with. Less complex code than when dealing with variable-width encodings.
21:19:33 <pikhq> olsner: Yup!
21:19:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Except that UCS-4 is a variable-width encoding.
21:20:13 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm? Isn't it just 4-byte per code point?
21:20:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: A glyph is composed of 1 or more code points.
21:20:26 <Vorpal> s/-/ /;s/byte/bytes/
21:20:40 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm true
21:20:42 <olsner> fixed-size code points will not save you from the variable-width glyphs
21:20:58 <olsner> or any of the other 3.7 million problems in text processing
21:21:21 <pikhq> And besides which, there is no sensible way you could *actually use* knowledge of being single-width.
21:22:20 <pikhq> If you just start indexing and munging strings, you're going to either be *parsing* it, in which case this doesn't matter at all, or you're doing some algorithm that doesn't care that you're passing it semantically meaningful text, or you're just fucking shit up.
21:22:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, it would make indexing into the string a lot simpler (though multi-codepoint stuff breaks that indeed)
21:22:41 <olsner> if you're indexing strings of text you're probably doing it wrong anyway
21:22:44 <pikhq> Except *you can't meaningfully index into the string*.
21:23:12 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:23:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, for any specific reason apart from the multi-codepoint glyphs?
21:23:32 <Vorpal> which does indeed mess the whole thing up
21:23:44 <pikhq> Vorpal: Let's index "Vorpal"[2]. What meaning does this operation have?
21:23:49 <pikhq> None.
21:23:53 <pikhq> Congrats, you got an o.
21:24:02 <pikhq> Erm, an r.
21:24:33 <pikhq> Now, what are you doing if you're doing this?
21:24:40 <olsner> could be an o if there were shenanigans involved, but I think the example was about the case where there isn't even anything weird in there
21:24:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, a user selecting the third letter of a nick displayed on screen in the IRC client network settings?
21:24:53 <Vorpal> (for copying perhaps)
21:24:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Oh, look, you're dealing in rendering.
21:25:07 <Vorpal> good point
21:25:11 <pikhq> Congrats, the actual codepoint representation doesn't matter.
21:25:24 <olsner> selecting by mouse? then you're selecting glyphs rendered in a font, etc
21:26:24 <pikhq> Basically the only way having a single-width encoding helps you is if you also make the assumption that you're dealing in monospace text.
21:26:25 <Vorpal> olsner, who said mouse? There are plenty of different ways to select. Shift-arrow key for example. Or touch screen.
21:26:35 <olsner> selecting by keyboard? you'd be iterating glyphs according to some rule about what a glyph is (though a stupid implementation could just let you select code points ignoring everything fiddly)
21:26:49 <pikhq> Which *isn't generally valid*.
21:28:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, on my screen atm the only text that isn't monospace belongs to the gnome 2 panels at the top and the bottom
21:28:13 <Vorpal> oh and the title bar
21:28:38 <pikhq> And your terminal borks horribly on non-Western text, no doubt. :)
21:29:01 <fizzie> I'd type a + combining diaeresis just to get some two-codepoint single-glyph content in there, but don't quite know how on this Windows thing.
21:29:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, gnome-terminal with Dejavu Sans Mono. No idea how that will behave in such cases.
21:29:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Strangely".
21:29:44 <olsner> it might very well turn out to not actually be monospace
21:29:53 <pikhq> There's no sensible monospace rendering of a large number of languages.
21:29:55 <Lumpio-> I don't have problems on xfce's terminal
21:30:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, for some stuff certainly.
21:30:03 <Lumpio-> Which is probably the same as gnome-terminal
21:30:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Like Arabic script.
21:30:23 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, pretty similar yeah. I use xfce on my desktop
21:30:32 <Lumpio-> I mean it's both gnome-vte AFAIK
21:30:35 <Lumpio-> Or whatever it was called
21:30:51 <Lumpio-> And I have no problems with Japanese text on Irssi or bash.
21:30:54 <Lumpio-> Or vim for that matter
21:31:05 <pikhq> Text rendering is hard. Anything that people think makes it easier is just them breaking shit.
21:31:11 <Vorpal> I assume it will break on those horrible wide chars thingy, which IMO should not even exist in unicode (as I mentioned earlier)
21:31:21 <Lumpio-> Badly implemented fancy ncurses-esque UIs can break with funny characters though.
21:31:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, terminals handle wide chars.
21:31:40 <Lumpio-> How are wide chars horrible
21:31:52 <pikhq> Vorpal: They generally make the weird assumption that chars come in single and double width.
21:32:01 <Lumpio-> i bet half the people here can’t see this
21:32:07 <Lumpio-> with their retro terminals
21:32:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, heh
21:32:23 <pikhq> Vorpal: In legacy CJK encodings, a "single width" character was 1 byte, and a "double width" one was 2 bytes.
21:32:44 <Lumpio-> Which encodings exactly
21:32:54 <Lumpio-> I'm pretty sure byte width had nothing to do with visual width even in the old encodings
21:32:57 <fizzie> `WELCOME Vorpal
21:33:01 <HackEgo> ​VORPAL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS
21:33:07 <Lumpio-> oh dear
21:33:08 <Vorpal> ouch
21:33:08 <pikhq> Lumpio-: Did on DOS. :)
21:33:11 <Lumpio-> Serioously?
21:33:14 <olsner> fizzie: what *is* that?
21:33:23 <Lumpio-> olsner: a welcome message?
21:33:24 <fizzie> olsner: Double-wide welcome.
21:33:33 <Lumpio-> pikhq: ok, can't say I ever used such ancient tech with CJK languages
21:34:04 <olsner> but in which encoding? I just get mojibake
21:34:10 <olsner> ​VORPAL: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LAï
21:34:10 <olsner> ¼®ï¼§ï¼µï¼¡ï¼§ï¼¥ã€€ï¼€ï¼¥ï¼³ï¼©ï¼§ï¼®ã€€ï¼¡ï¼®ï¼€ã€€ï¼€ï¼¥ï¼°ï¼¬ï¼¯ï¼¹ï¼­ï¼¥ï¼®ï¼´ï¼ã€€ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ã€€ï¼­ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼¥ã€€ï¼©ï¼®ï¼¦ï¼¯ï¼²ï¼­ï¼¡ï¼´ï¼©ï¼¯ï¼®ï¼Œã€€ï¼£ï¼¨ï¼¥ï¼£ï¼«ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼´ã€€ï¼¯ï¼µï¼²ã€€ï¼·ï¼©ï¼«
21:34:13 <olsner> I: HTTP://ESOLANGï¼
21:34:13 <fizzie> UTF-8, I presume.
21:34:15 <pikhq> olsner: UTF-8.
21:34:15 <Vorpal> I can see it fine. I'm pretty sure gtk is doing the "oops, lets get the letter from a different font" thing though
21:34:21 <pikhq> olsner: Your IRC client is broken.
21:34:26 <Vorpal> because the double width stuff looks like a bitmap font
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21:34:46 <Gregor> I don't know if there's any font where double-width doesn't look like utter shit :)
21:34:50 <Vorpal> no antialias and still pretty readable
21:35:29 <Lumpio-> Well, double width latin looks weird by definition because there's just too much space.
21:35:37 <Vorpal> the double width R top is one pixel higher than the top of the O
21:35:42 <olsner> meh, but freenode is set to UTF-8 for me, so it should work?
21:35:47 <Vorpal> so "OUR" looks really strange
21:35:59 <Vorpal> like a type writer that put the R slightly higher
21:36:16 <olsner> is the bot prefixing something to prevent botloops, that confuses my client?
21:36:19 <Vorpal> hm looks like only R is affected like that, no other letter
21:36:34 <Vorpal> olsner, did it work when I pasted it?
21:36:54 <olsner> Vorpal: "OUR"? yes, that worked
21:37:00 <Vorpal> olsner, hm okay
21:37:09 <fizzie> olsner: It's a GregorBot, so it should be prefixing zero-width something, but that too in UTF-8.
21:37:11 <Vorpal> either your client or hackego must be broken then
21:37:23 <fizzie> That said, I'm only assuming it's UTF-8. But it works for me.
21:37:58 <Vorpal> `ls
21:38:00 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
21:38:04 <Vorpal> `ls quotes
21:38:07 <HackEgo> quotes
21:38:16 <fizzie> `cat bin/WELCOME
21:38:19 <Vorpal> ah
21:38:19 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ WELCOME "$@" | perl -CS -Mutf8 -pwe 'y/!-~/!-~/; y/ / /'
21:38:25 <Vorpal> `file bin/WELCOME
21:38:29 <HackEgo> bin/WELCOME: POSIX shell script text executable
21:38:29 <Vorpal> oh
21:38:30 <Vorpal> right
21:38:32 <Vorpal> that won't help
21:38:46 <olsner> hmm, I do see the zero-width something as a missing-character box when I read the logs from http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
21:38:56 <Vorpal> `run bin/WELCOME | file -
21:39:00 <HackEgo> ​/dev/stdin: UTF-8 Unicode text
21:39:03 <Vorpal> yeah
21:39:04 <Vorpal> UTF-8
21:39:09 <Vorpal> (probably)
21:39:22 <fizzie> Based on the code, it certainly seems so.
21:39:31 <Vorpal> olsner, no CTCP VERSION reply?
21:40:19 <fizzie> `cat bin/No
21:40:22 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh
21:40:24 <fizzie> What's that about?
21:40:34 <olsner> `No
21:40:37 <HackEgo> No output.
21:40:43 <olsner> `No output.
21:40:46 <HackEgo> No output.
21:40:47 <fizzie> Oh, of course.
21:40:51 <nortti_> fizzie: confusing you
21:41:26 <olsner> Vorpal: XChat
21:41:35 <Vorpal> olsner, hm /charset iirc?
21:41:41 <Vorpal> what does it display
21:41:44 <Vorpal> UTF-8?
21:42:01 <Vorpal> iirc xchat can get confused between network settings and what actually happens
21:42:36 <olsner> Vorpal: UTF-8 indeed
21:42:54 <Vorpal> olsner, any bouncer?
21:43:06 <olsner> not that I know of, what's that?
21:43:36 <Vorpal> like znc or such. You run it on a sever and connect to it. It keeps the connection and logging and so on going in the background for you
21:43:52 <Vorpal> and can display a replay of the last n lines when you connect the irc client
21:48:12 <nortti_> do you need bouncer for something?
21:52:01 <Vorpal> hm?
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23:38:57 <oerjan> to whoever is interested, icfp programming contest starts tomorrow
23:40:04 <kmc> intercontinental fallopian probes
23:40:26 <oerjan> @wn fallopian
23:40:27 <lambdabot> No match for "fallopian".
23:40:38 <oerjan> MAKING UP TERMS, HMMM?
23:40:52 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallopian_tube
23:41:09 <shachaf> oerjan: It turns out that I'll be free during it.
23:41:15 <shachaf> But I'm not sure whether I'll do it...
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2012-07-13
00:43:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:50:30 <shachaf> kmc: I joined #python earlier and they were making fun of how stupid those static languages and people who use them are.
00:51:18 <Vorpal> shachaf, do they ever think about what the most common implementation of Python is written in?
00:51:41 <kmc> Vorpal: that's a silly argument
00:51:45 <shachaf> Vorpal: "I hate making hardware."
00:51:48 <kmc> shachaf: like bizarro world #haskell, eh?
00:51:55 <shachaf> "Are you aware what your software runs on?"
00:52:02 <Vorpal> kmc, true, but so is the idea that static languages are stupid
00:52:18 <madbr> shachaf: ahahaha
00:52:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, hardware is awesome though not easy.
00:52:23 <shachaf> Vorpal: It's a silly idea but that counterargument isn't very valid.
00:53:13 <madbr> hardware afaik is mostly long to design :D
00:53:36 <madbr> optimised assembler is like 10 times slower to write than C++ for instance
00:53:53 <madbr> though it's partly processor dependent
00:55:52 <Vorpal> anyway some good reasons to use statically typed languages: Better error checking at an early stage (compile time errors are much better than runtime errors)
00:55:52 <shachaf> kmc: Did I just troll-by-proxy?
00:55:52 <Vorpal> another good reason is that it provides the optimiser with much more information
00:55:52 <shachaf> Vorpal: You don't need to tell me about advantages of statically-typed languages.
00:55:53 <Vorpal> I think a statically typed language with some support for dynamic typing if you really want to (and where the dynamic typing would be easy to spot for someone reading the code) would be the optimal way to go. Something like a (static!) type Dynamic that can be contain any type or such. Wasn't there something for haskell kind of doing that?
00:56:29 <madbr> that would probably be nice yes
00:56:45 <Vorpal> madbr, I have written some VHDL. And that isn't even on the level of designing transistors and so on. Presumably doing ASIC development is even harder than just working against an FPGA
00:57:07 <madbr> Also with std::string, vector and map as basic types instead of half grafted on things
00:57:34 <kmc> no
00:57:39 <kmc> fewer baked in things is better
00:57:53 <kmc> Vorpal: that Dynamic type is part of the GHC Haskell standard library, yes
00:58:02 <madbr> yeah but the base weakness of C/C++ is the lack of built in types
00:58:04 <madbr> uh
00:58:09 <kmc> C/C++
00:58:09 <madbr> ahaha that makes no sense
00:58:12 <Vorpal> kmc, really haven't worked that much with haskell, only the basics
00:58:12 <kmc> yep
00:58:22 <madbr> yeah but the base weakness of C/C++ is the lack of variable size structures
00:58:37 <kmc> Vorpal: oh, well, wishing for a static language with a feature Haskell already has is a common enough occurrence
00:58:45 <madbr> everything is fine as long as none of your strings or arrays ever change size
00:58:49 <Vorpal> I'm not sure a string should be a fundamental type. Sure there are some good arguments for it. It definitely shouldn't be handled as an array of chars. But I think a linked list of chars (in a language having the linked list as a fundamental type, like Erlang or Scheme) is a good representation.
00:59:06 <shachaf> What does "fundamental" mean?
00:59:12 <kmc> Vorpal: that has terrible performance though
00:59:19 <madbr> vorpal: that's kinda impossible to parallelize
00:59:21 <shachaf> A language should let you make your own abstractions.
00:59:28 <kmc> i think you need some general purpose type for things contiguous in memory
00:59:33 <kmc> and you can apply that to characters
00:59:35 <shachaf> That's probably the most important thing in a high-level language.
00:59:36 <madbr> abstractions?
00:59:40 <Vorpal> shachaf, I presume kmc meant "baked into the syntax of the language, and is more than just syntax sugar for something else"
00:59:41 <madbr> I don't need abstractions
00:59:46 <madbr> I need arrays of floats
00:59:49 <madbr> and shit like that
01:00:08 <Vorpal> <kmc> i think you need some general purpose type for things contiguous in memory <kmc> and you can apply that to characters <-- you can create a binary containing a string in erlang as well
01:01:00 <Vorpal> purely functional data type though (can sometimes be optimised to be mutable if the compiler can be sure it won't be visible elsewhere though), so there are some interesting things to be aware of.
01:01:25 <madbr> mutable types are nice
01:01:41 <Vorpal> <shachaf> A language should let you make your own abstractions. <-- so something like lisp?
01:02:07 <kmc> Vorpal: are there popular implementations which do that?
01:02:08 <shachaf> Vorpal: That's one kind of abstraction.
01:02:17 <Vorpal> kmc, hm?
01:02:29 <kmc> optimize data structures to be mutable locally
01:02:38 <shachaf> kmc: Languages with uniqueness typing, maybe?
01:02:42 <madbr> the problem is the aliasing caused by pointers
01:02:43 <Vorpal> kmc, popular implementations of erlang?
01:02:47 <kmc> of anything
01:02:50 <kmc> whatever you were talking about
01:02:50 <Vorpal> kmc, there is just one Erlang implementation
01:03:00 <Vorpal> I guess it is the most popular Erlang implementation
01:03:02 <Vorpal> XD
01:03:02 <kmc> "is that a thing at all"
01:03:05 <kmc> is what i'm asking
01:03:19 <kmc> it's a common misconception about GHC and Haskell
01:03:21 <shachaf> kmc: It's a thing that they tell young Haskell programmers to get them to go to sleep.
01:03:26 <kmc> yeah
01:03:32 <kmc> to my knowledge GHC does not really do that
01:03:34 <shachaf> I believed it for a while!
01:03:42 <kmc> but it does eliminate intermediate data structures entirely, sometime
01:03:43 <Vorpal> kmc, oh yeah, erlang can optimise certain appending style operations to mutate the data in certain cases
01:03:58 <Vorpal> afaik it is fairly restricted, but it is documented in the efficiency section of the manual
01:03:59 <kmc> the nice thing about pure functional data structures isn't some weird compiler trick
01:04:20 <kmc> it's that they *fundamentally* support efficient non-destructive update
01:04:33 <kmc> if you implement a binary search tree in the most naive way in Haskell with a stupid naive Haskell compiler
01:04:38 <Sgeo_> pikhq, why are there no Tcl "data structures" that map cleanly to a bunch of Tcl commands?
01:04:39 <kmc> and you add a new node into a tree
01:04:40 <shachaf> "give your compiler this one weird tip to make your data structures support efficient non-destructive update"
01:04:48 <kmc> the "new tree" will share most of its storage with the old one
01:04:57 <Sgeo_> Lists are good for one Tcl command, thus making construction with [list ... ] simple
01:05:04 <Sgeo_> There seems to be nothing for multiple commands
01:05:05 <Vorpal> kmc, well binaries are fairly efficient anyway. A lot of operations on them will do stuff like "this is a view of byte 8 to byte 83 (plus 3 extra bits) of this underlying binary"
01:05:06 <shachaf> kmc: Not with a naïve implementation that copies everything!
01:05:09 <madbr> won't that have a zillion tiny allocations?
01:05:14 <shachaf> Which might be the most obvious implementation.
01:05:19 -!- monqy_ has joined.
01:05:20 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
01:05:23 <shachaf> honqy_
01:05:24 <Vorpal> (yeah binaries don't have to be whole byte sizes)
01:05:41 <kmc> madbr: sure, but a typical Haskell runtime uses an allocator where allocation is vastly cheaper than malloc()
01:05:41 -!- monqy_ has changed nick to monqy.
01:06:01 <madbr> heh really
01:06:01 <kmc> though you pay for it later in the garbage collector
01:06:04 <kmc> well yes
01:06:09 <Vorpal> kmc, anyway LISP style linked lists support prepending for example without copying
01:06:10 <kmc> allocation in GHC is just a matter of incrementing a pointer
01:06:15 <madbr> what does it do, just increment a pointer?
01:06:23 <kmc> Vorpal: that is an example of my fundamental property, not of some compiler trick
01:06:24 <Vorpal> or tail without copying
01:06:42 <madbr> but what does it do later when half the data in the array is alive and half is not
01:06:50 <madbr> recompact everything???!??
01:06:53 <kmc> compacting garbage collector
01:06:53 <kmc> yes
01:07:00 <kmc> which is also good for cache utilization
01:07:13 <kmc> ???!??
01:07:31 <madbr> yeah provided you can lock the whole program for like 200ms once in a while
01:07:37 <kmc> yeah
01:07:47 <Vorpal> <kmc> allocation in GHC is just a matter of incrementing a pointer <-- like a stack then?
01:07:51 <madbr> can't do that in the kind of code I write :D
01:07:55 <kmc> if you have realtime constraints then the story is different
01:07:56 <madbr> (games, software synths)
01:07:59 <kmc> sure
01:08:16 <Vorpal> hm real time haskell, is there any hard realtime haskell variant?
01:08:19 <madbr> both of which are traditionally programmed in C++
01:08:23 <kmc> Vorpal: ask in #haskell
01:08:30 <kmc> Vorpal: yes, like, a stack, but you never pop either
01:08:44 <kmc> you just accumulate objects in this region, in order, until it's full
01:08:46 <kmc> then you run the GC
01:08:47 <Vorpal> btw, I'm going to be working with hard realtime systems pretty soon
01:08:50 <shachaf> "like, a stack, but you never pop"
01:08:52 <shachaf> whoa, dude
01:08:53 <madbr> ie you leak until the GC runs
01:09:05 <Vorpal> got a job at Atlas Copco, starting the end of this month
01:09:10 <kmc> madbr: uh, yes
01:09:17 <kmc> that is how a GC works
01:09:31 <shachaf> Not a reference-counting "GC"!
01:09:35 <kmc> using the word "leak" there is disingenuous
01:09:41 <shachaf> I guess that's not really a GC.
01:09:52 <kmc> shachaf: since when did words in CS mean anything?
01:10:01 <Vorpal> <shachaf> "like, a stack, but you never pop" <-- you could make your address space cyclic and use that as a cache kind of thing maybe??
01:10:04 <shachaf> kmc: Good point.
01:10:18 <Vorpal> you need some way to detect overwritten references though
01:10:48 <kmc> really it's not disingenuous, just false
01:10:56 <kmc> a leak is an dead object which will never be freed
01:11:09 <madbr> well, I guess it's a hyperbole
01:11:18 <kmc> you say "hyperbole" i say "wrong"
01:11:21 <madbr> it's not really a leak
01:11:25 <kmc> anyway i'm not saying GC is the answer to anything
01:11:29 <kmc> but it is more efficient in some ways
01:11:32 <kmc> and less efficient in others
01:11:37 <shachaf> leak: Sometimes a leak is an object which has been freed despite best efforts to keep it hidden!
01:11:45 <shachaf> s/lea(.)/\1mc/
01:11:47 <kmc> people who don't like GC tend to paint it as strictly less efficient and for lazy programmers only
01:11:50 <kmc> that's simply not true
01:12:06 <Vorpal> since when was reference counting considered a GC? You could have a GC that detect and take care of cycles in such a system though (lol python)
01:12:13 <kmc> compacting garbage collection gives you faster allocation and better cache utilization, at the expense of periodic pauses
01:12:29 <madbr> I'm not convinced about better cache use
01:13:14 <kmc> ok
01:13:18 <kmc> well i don't have any numbers handy
01:13:24 <kmc> this isn't an area i know in depth
01:13:31 <madbr> what about non compacting GC?
01:13:45 <pikhq> madbr: Sucks.
01:14:04 <pikhq> It gives you all the downsides of GC with most of the downsides of malloc.
01:14:07 <shachaf> madbr: Better cache use than what?
01:14:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, I'm pretty sure many VMs use those for small collections
01:14:30 <Vorpal> with bigger, compacting collections more rarely
01:14:36 <Vorpal> unless I missremember
01:14:45 <Vorpal> misremember*
01:14:56 <madbr> shachaf: than traditional malloc-using C++ code I guess
01:15:04 <kmc> you shouldn't be using malloc in C++
01:15:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: The smaller your heap the cheaper compacting GC is.
01:15:14 <kmc> you should use new, preferably with smart pointers
01:15:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm true
01:15:21 <madbr> kmc: same as malloc
01:15:31 <kmc> i guess by "C++" most people mean "C with whatever C++ features i feel like understanding"
01:15:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, well if you have a pool for very large allocations it might not be a good idea to compact that too often I guess
01:15:48 <madbr> except for the smart pointer thing
01:16:04 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, you'd probably be best trying to split it into small and large object pools.
01:16:12 <Vorpal> kmc, what are C++ smart pointers?
01:16:15 <pikhq> Compacting large allocations is really rather painful.
01:16:26 <kmc> a smart pointer is a class which wraps a pointer, but provides some nicer semantics and/or guarantees
01:16:27 <madbr> vorpal: reference counted objects AFAIK
01:16:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, combined with a generational GC as well
01:16:33 <kmc> they aren't always reference counted
01:16:39 <kmc> you can have a reference-counted smart pointer
01:16:52 <pikhq> And besides which, you'll probably want to make it so that space contains objects that don't reference other things.
01:16:55 <Vorpal> <kmc> a smart pointer is a class which wraps a pointer, but provides some nicer semantics and/or guarantees <-- like that which more higher level languages do?
01:17:03 <pikhq> (because most large buffers won't be giant pointer buffers)
01:17:17 <Vorpal> anyway what, apart from reference counting could they usefully provide in C++
01:17:17 <kmc> you can construct a shared_ptr<T> from a T*, or copy-construct it from another shared_ptr<T>
01:17:35 <pikhq> Vorpal: They basically are reference counting...
01:17:39 <kmc> it records somewhere the number of shared_ptr<T>'s holding that particular T*
01:17:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, "<kmc> they aren't always reference counted"
01:17:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, so he is wrong then?
01:17:49 <kmc> the destructor for a shared_ptr<T> decrements the count
01:17:52 <kmc> let me finish
01:17:54 <kmc> god
01:17:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: No, he's merely being more accurate.
01:18:00 <Vorpal> hm okay
01:18:03 <kmc> when it drops to 0, it calls delete on the original pointer
01:18:04 <kmc> anyway
01:18:08 <kmc> that's a reference-counted smart pointer
01:18:12 <kmc> but you can also make other kinds
01:18:20 <itidus21> <kmc> i guess by "C++" most people mean "C with whatever C++ features i feel like understanding" -- which is actually fine so long as you don't have to read anyone elses code
01:18:26 <madbr> kmc: such as?
01:18:30 <kmc> like unique pointers
01:18:55 <pikhq> Yeah. They also can be used to give you guarantees like "delete this when it falls out of scope".
01:18:58 <shachaf> kmc: How do you catch a unique pointer?
01:18:59 <Vorpal> kmc, how does it keep track of shared_ptr<T> though? What if I pass a function a reference to a shared_ptr<T>? Or are they small enough that you usually pass by value and invoke copy constructors all over the place?
01:19:07 <shachaf> A: Unique up on it
01:19:08 <kmc> Vorpal: the latter
01:19:27 <kmc> Vorpal: the compiled representation of a shared_ptr<T> is probably the same as a T*
01:19:39 <madbr> dunno
01:19:42 <Vorpal> kmc, plus a reference count surely?
01:19:44 <kmc> the reference counting is done in some global hidden structure
01:19:49 <Vorpal> ah...
01:19:51 <kmc> no, the reference count has to ba global
01:19:52 <madbr> well
01:19:54 <Vorpal> kmc, so are they thread safe?
01:20:03 <kmc> if each shared_ptr<T> had their own count, then they would all have a count of 1...
01:20:07 <madbr> it should be in the structure that is getting counted no?
01:20:12 <kmc> madbr: you can build those too
01:20:15 <kmc> "intrusive shared pointers"
01:20:22 <kmc> more programmer effort, somewhat more efficient
01:20:39 <kmc> Vorpal: I don't know about the thread saftey guarantees of Boost's or C++11's implementations of this idea
01:20:45 <Vorpal> doing it without having it in the structure being counted sounds very much like a kludge
01:20:50 <kmc> in general yes, you can make a thread-safe shared pointer
01:20:58 <kmc> doesn't seem like a kludge to me, really
01:21:07 <kmc> only a little bit
01:21:13 <pikhq> At least, no more so than anything else in C++.
01:21:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, touche
01:21:27 <madbr> thread-safe shared pointer? what, by locking a mutex to it every time you manipulate it? :D
01:21:56 <kmc> madbr: well first of all, it would only be when you create/destroy a shared_ptr<T>, not dereference one
01:22:00 <Vorpal> madbr, implementing an atomic counter isn't that hard targeting most ISAs
01:22:15 <kmc> implementing a hash table of atomic counts is harder
01:22:20 <kmc> but still quite doable
01:22:29 <Vorpal> why a hash table?
01:22:35 <kmc> given that this is a piece of core library code which is hopefully not re-implemented in every project
01:22:38 <Vorpal> oh right, if it doesn't have anything except the pointer
01:22:39 <kmc> though knowing C and C++, it likely is
01:22:44 <Vorpal> a pointer pair seems better
01:22:46 <kmc> Vorpal: you need a map from T* to reference count
01:23:03 <kmc> Vorpal: pointer to T and also pointer to its count location in the table?
01:23:04 <madbr> you'd need atomic count+value no?
01:23:05 <kmc> yeah maybe
01:23:07 <kmc> i don't know how it's done
01:23:26 <shachaf> You could also maybe use a per-thread count for some things.
01:23:46 <madbr> otherwise your count may be accurate but it can still change whenever no? :D
01:23:54 <Vorpal> madbr, x86 provides atomic increment/decrement iirc. And there is always CAS
01:24:14 <madbr> you need atomic [inc/dec PLUS value read/write]
01:24:17 <madbr> I *think*
01:24:27 <Vorpal> of course if they are in a table, that is going to play hell with the cache line ownership between the CPUs
01:24:30 <kmc> shachaf: yeah
01:24:57 <kmc> i think the Linux kernel uses per-CPU reference counting for some objects
01:25:15 <kmc> don't remember the exact semantics
01:25:16 <Vorpal> the linux kernel uses a lot of snazzy data structures
01:25:34 <shachaf> kmc: It's a fun performance issue when you have per-thread counters for something (not referece counts, just integers) and you put them all in one array, so that each thread does arr[tid]++;
01:25:54 <Vorpal> shachaf, that is just going to kill the performance XD
01:25:56 <pikhq> Vorpal: Well, yes. A kernel is fundamentally no more than a pile of allocators and schedulers. :)
01:26:24 <Vorpal> pikhq, a lot of device drivers too (unless a micro kernel, in which case it is just some device drivers)
01:28:28 <madbr> how real time are real time OSes these days?
01:28:43 <kmc> uh, completely?
01:29:03 <madbr> well, what latency can you get :D
01:29:08 <kmc> ok
01:29:10 <kmc> that is a different question
01:29:18 <madbr> 1ms? 100us? 10us? :D
01:29:19 <Vorpal> madbr, you misunderstood the meaning of a real time OS
01:29:26 <kmc> "real time" does not mean "super low latency" necessarily
01:29:30 <kmc> it means that you care what the latency is
01:29:40 <kmc> you can have a "hard real time" system where the latency bound is 60 seconds
01:29:50 <kmc> it's still hard real time because if you miss that deadline, the plane blows up or whatever
01:29:54 <Gregor> It's not all that /likely/, but it fits the definition :)
01:29:59 <kmc> i think it is pretty likely
01:30:02 <madbr> "A key characteristic of an RTOS is the level of its consistency concerning the amount of time it takes to accept and complete an application's task;"
01:30:04 <kmc> planes take a while to blow up
01:30:11 <madbr> that's latency
01:30:14 <Vorpal> it means that you can work out guarantees that the latency running a specific set of software on it will be within specific limits
01:30:21 <kmc> yes, it is about predictable and guaranteed latency bounds
01:30:27 <Gregor> madbr: Yes, CONSISTENCY, not BREVITY.
01:31:30 <shachaf> hi Gregor
01:31:33 <shachaf> I confused you with Vorpal
01:31:42 <Vorpal> what
01:31:42 <madbr> but then if your guaranteed time is 100ms... that's still not so cool :D
01:32:00 <kmc> that depends on the application
01:32:06 <Vorpal> <kmc> you can have a "hard real time" system where the latency bound is 60 seconds <-- I'd hate to draw the timing diagram for that, given that most other stuff will probably be in the millisecond range
01:32:09 <kmc> you really do not seem to be getting this idea
01:32:13 <Gregor> shachaf: Capital letter, five more letters.
01:32:28 <shachaf> Gregor: Right.
01:32:29 <madbr> but yeah was asking for irl values
01:32:35 * Vorpal is now known as Vergor
01:32:40 <Vorpal> oops
01:32:43 * Vorpal is now known as Vregor
01:32:50 <shachaf> I wonder if capital letters are "actually" easy to distinguish without reading them.
01:33:06 <shachaf> If you gave someone who can't read English a text with capital and lower-case letters, would they be able to pick out the capitals?
01:33:23 <Gregor> Capital thorn is smaller than lowercase thorn! 8-D
01:33:36 <Vorpal> shachaf, well the rest of the word shape is different too, r is half the height of l
01:34:03 <Vorpal> shachaf, if they know the latin script, sure?
01:34:04 <madbr> kmc: just say that you don't know the values and don't care, jeez
01:34:39 <Vorpal> madbr, your question made no sense.
01:34:43 <shachaf> madbr: Come on, don't troll kmc. :-(
01:35:05 <kmc> it's dumb that you keep badgering us over t his
01:35:14 <kmc> when it's probably plastered all over the front page of anyone marketing a RTOS
01:35:26 <Vorpal> madbr, most real time systems are probably slower than your average PC in average response time. But the thing is, you don't know the maximum response time on your OS. It might suddenly swap trash for example
01:35:39 <soundnfury> shachaf: at least I haven't still got Virgil in here ;)
01:37:43 <madbr> hm
01:37:54 <madbr> seems more for military usage then yeah
01:38:04 <madbr> and planes
01:38:19 <Vorpal> madbr, your car probably contains at least one if it isn't too old
01:38:32 <Vorpal> The ABS brakes for a start
01:38:39 <Vorpal> any ESP system
01:38:41 <madbr> mhm
01:38:53 <Vorpal> because if those took too long. Yeah would be bad
01:38:59 <kmc> realtime control systems outnumber "computers" by a huge factor
01:39:05 <kmc> not all of them use an "operating system" though
01:39:18 <kmc> many are just simple microcontrollers running a single program at a deterministic speed
01:39:19 <Vorpal> kmc, control systems in general outnumber what we normally think of as computers
01:39:26 <kmc> yeah
01:39:44 <madbr> true
01:39:54 <Vorpal> dishwasher, freezer, TV, washing machine. Doubt any of those run RTOS.
01:40:04 <Vorpal> or well maybe they though (not the TV though)
01:40:13 <Vorpal> s/they/they do/
01:40:28 <soundnfury> most digital TVs run Linux
01:40:29 <madbr> no idea what they put in TVs these days
01:40:41 <soundnfury> as did set top boxes during the analogue->digital transition
01:40:51 <Vorpal> vxworks is probably convenient to put in a dishwasher even if you don't use the real time properties.
01:40:58 <Vorpal> either that or it runs on bare metal
01:41:07 <Vorpal> in which case it is most likely not real time in any way
01:41:18 <kmc> huh?
01:41:26 <kmc> that's about as real time as it gets.
01:41:27 <Vorpal> hm?
01:41:32 <kmc> if you're the only program running on the chip...
01:41:49 <Vorpal> kmc, you have to design that program so you can be sure it won't ever enter an extra long loop though
01:41:51 <madbr> and the chip has no cache and out of order execution?
01:41:53 <Vorpal> otherwise it isn't real time
01:41:59 <kmc> Vorpal: sure
01:42:09 <madbr> vorpal: some people do that afaik :D
01:42:14 <kmc> or you do everything time sensitive in a timer interrupt
01:42:19 <Vorpal> madbr, sure, I done it at university
01:42:20 <kmc> but yeah
01:42:27 <Vorpal> using vxworks was much easier though
01:42:30 <kmc> simple microcontrollers give you totally deterministic execution
01:42:34 <kmc> no cache, no out of order execution
01:42:38 <Vorpal> since then you knew the scheduler would prioritise the right thing
01:42:43 <kmc> each instruction takes a known number of clock cycles, always
01:42:49 <Vorpal> without a scheduler, well you have to get everything perfectly right
01:42:56 <madbr> kmc: ie too long :D
01:43:04 <Vorpal> madbr, not really
01:43:16 <Vorpal> madbr, they work fine for what they are designed for
01:43:26 <madbr> well, not too long for a microcontroller application where there's little data to crunch through
01:43:33 <kmc> madbr: that's fucking annoying, stop asserting that things are "too slow" without knowing what the application is
01:43:43 <kmc> you strike me as one of those people who programs in C because it means your e-penis is so big
01:43:49 <Vorpal> kmc, he is obviously trolling you
01:43:52 <kmc> yeah
01:44:06 <Vorpal> don't feed the troll (I know that can be hard)
01:44:22 <soundnfury> kmc: don't be silly. He obviously writes direct to machine code. In binary. With butterflies.
01:44:40 <kmc> with e-penis
01:44:48 <madbr> eheh
01:44:48 <Vorpal> soundnfury, you make me laugh. He loads customised microcode into the processor
01:45:03 <kmc> i shit trains, what now
01:45:05 <soundnfury> don't be silly, he doesn't use processors with microcode, they're "too slow"
01:45:13 <Vorpal> XD
01:45:25 <kmc> hardwired logic 4 lyfe
01:45:38 <madbr> it's the kind of system that doesn't have cache miss because essentially every memory access is a cache miss :D
01:45:42 <Sgeo_> Why am I still looking at Tcl instead of Lisp?
01:45:48 <madbr> so you have deterministic time
01:45:50 <Vorpal> TTL logic is kind of fun.
01:46:00 <kmc> madbr: no, it's more like every memory access is a cache *hit*
01:46:05 <kmc> AVR microcontrollers have all SRAM
01:46:07 <Sgeo_> What about time-loop logic?
01:46:10 <madbr> or it has like 1k ram so it doesn't have cache misses yeah :D
01:46:12 <Vorpal> kmc, hm do AVR processors even have a pipeline?
01:46:19 <kmc> in fact there's not much distinction between registers and RAM
01:46:25 <Vorpal> I guess some might have a 2 stage pipeline or something simple like that
01:46:44 <soundnfury> Vorpal: isn't "TTL logic" a PIN-number-ism?
01:46:45 <kmc> the registers are just the first n locations in RAM, they have a special addressing mode but show up as normal memory too
01:46:50 <kmc> soundnfury: oh god
01:46:52 <Vorpal> soundnfury, yeah and?
01:47:00 <kmc> that is the dumbest thing to care about
01:47:13 <soundnfury> kmc: what can I say? I'm a pedantic dickweed
01:47:19 <Vorpal> soundnfury, it is also a CD disc thing. It is not quite a Personal PIN Number-ism though
01:47:24 <kmc> saying "TTL is kind of fun" is more ambiguous and awkward
01:47:29 <kmc> language exists to serve the needs of communication
01:47:35 <kmc> not to satisfy the arbitrary rules of pedantic dickweeds
01:47:38 <soundnfury> Vorpal: my eyes my eyes it burns
01:47:41 <kmc> do you also object to "all OK"?
01:47:41 <shachaf> Ah, kmc.
01:47:49 <Vorpal> the wires very quickly ends up being tricky to keep track of though
01:48:10 <Vorpal> I remember doing a binary->2 digit BCD converter in a lab at university
01:48:11 <soundnfury> kmc: the rules aren't arbitrary, they exist to serve the needs of communication
01:48:23 <kmc> after all OK might be (nobody's quite sure) an initialism for "oll korrect", an intentional misspelling of "all correct"
01:48:24 <Vorpal> the mess of wires, aiee
01:48:27 <kmc> so "all OK" is ambiguous
01:48:31 -!- ais523 has quit.
01:48:31 <kmc> er redundant
01:48:33 <kmc> just like "ATM machine"
01:48:35 <kmc> am i right
01:48:45 <shachaf> kmc: Oh no!
01:48:57 <shachaf> We don't *know* whether it's redundant or not!
01:49:05 <shachaf> It's, like, quantum pedantry, man.
01:49:11 <soundnfury> kmc: who cares? Everyone calls it a hole-in-the-wall anyway :p
01:49:14 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I have a compact CD disc here
01:49:26 <kmc> itt: nerds saying the things nerds always say
01:49:33 <Vorpal> soundnfury, with that I mean it is one of those mini-sized ones
01:49:48 <soundnfury> Vorpal: you mean a minidisc?
01:49:57 <Vorpal> soundnfury, is that the name of them? Maybe
01:50:04 <kmc> "n order to maximize performance and parallelism, the AVR uses a Harvard architecture – with
01:50:08 <kmc> separate memories and buses for program and data. Instructions in the program memory are
01:50:11 <Vorpal> it fits into the inner depression in the CD reader
01:50:12 <kmc> executed with a single level pipelining.
01:50:16 <soundnfury> or one of those silly "singles" disks that play in a normal CD player?
01:50:21 <kmc> sorry for spam, failed copying from pdf
01:50:22 <soundnfury> those are fscking pointless
01:50:24 <Vorpal> kmc, hm nice
01:50:34 <Vorpal> and yeah I know it uses Harvard
01:50:37 <kmc> so yeah, it's a 2 stage fetch-execute pipeline
01:50:40 <Vorpal> a lot of microcontrollers do
01:50:46 <kmc> well you can also load data from program memory
01:50:52 <kmc> and you can write to program memory using special instructions
01:50:52 <Vorpal> PIC and AVR do at least
01:50:55 <madbr> everything uses either hard or soft harvard these days
01:51:02 <Vorpal> I really have no idea about any other micro controller architectures
01:51:06 <Vorpal> which ones are there even
01:51:08 <soundnfury> #Fight fiercely, Harvard, fight fight fight!
01:51:11 <kmc> 8051 is very popular
01:51:19 <Vorpal> kmc, which ISA is that?
01:51:21 <kmc> ARM is used as a microcontroller too
01:51:29 <kmc> Vorpal: it's, uh, the 8051 ISA?
01:51:32 <madbr> kmc: ah yeah, saw one of those
01:51:34 <Vorpal> uh okay
01:51:49 <soundnfury> I think for low-end applications the Z80 still gets used as a microcontroller
01:51:49 <kmc> 68k is used as a microcontroller too
01:51:50 <Vorpal> kmc, hm ARM really has a huge span
01:51:54 <madbr> tend to quite faster too
01:51:57 <Vorpal> soundnfury, like in my graph calculator
01:52:02 <kmc> and MIPS and PPC implementations
01:52:04 <Vorpal> though that is like 12 years old now
01:52:11 <madbr> with nice features like fast multipliers
01:52:12 <Vorpal> awesome battery time though
01:52:16 <kmc> you can synthesize a PPC chip on a higher end FPGA
01:52:26 <Vorpal> 4xAAA lasts several years in it
01:52:27 <kmc> Vorpal: yeah, ARM has a huge span
01:52:42 <kmc> it's a licensed ISA with many implementations
01:52:45 <soundnfury> Vorpal: graphical calculators are shoite tho
01:52:58 <Vorpal> kmc, which ARM ISA are they using for microcontrollers? Not ARM7 I guess
01:53:03 <kmc> beats me
01:53:07 <madbr> no more like arm11
01:53:23 <Vorpal> madbr, stop trolling by making up stuff
01:53:31 <madbr> let me look it up
01:54:00 <Vorpal> madbr, the last version is 8
01:54:04 <Vorpal> there is no ARM11
01:54:27 <Vorpal> (and there are no products based on version 8 yet)
01:54:37 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hm, they work well for their intended purpose though
01:54:38 <madbr> afaik arm11 is the raspberry pi's processor and has armv6 instruction set but that's probably fairly higher end and there are probably much more limited ones
01:54:51 <madbr> yeah it's confusing
01:55:00 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, "PowerPC computing" is also redundant.
01:55:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, that C stands for computing?
01:55:22 <madbr> http://www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm11/index.php
01:55:23 <kmc> haha
01:55:32 <Gregor> Hrrrng, shachaf: that is NOT redundant.
01:55:48 <kmc> how about "ARM machine"
01:55:48 <Gregor> That's like when people say that "SMS message" is redundant because the 'M' stands for messaging.
01:55:59 <shachaf> So is "ARM Machine"!
01:56:06 <shachaf> Aw.
01:56:07 <kmc> yep
01:56:16 <Lumpio-> But the C in PowerPC stands for computing ,__,
01:56:29 <Gregor> “ARM machine” I would be more agreeable to. Also the 'C' in PowerPC surely stands for comput/er/?
01:56:33 <shachaf> ARM ATM Machine
01:56:36 <Vorpal> Gregor, uh, Short SMS Service would be redundant technically
01:56:39 -!- comex has quit (*.net *.split).
01:56:41 <Lumpio-> It doesn't
01:56:44 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yes, that would be.
01:56:46 <Lumpio-> I learned that yesterday.
01:56:47 <Vorpal> though I think the interpretation would be rather different actually
01:56:48 <Gregor> Vorpal: But "SMS message" is not.
01:56:52 <Gregor> Lumpio-: Hm.
01:56:54 <kmc> this is
01:56:56 <Vorpal> Gregor, of course
01:56:56 <kmc> the dumbest thing
01:56:57 <pikhq> I don't see what's redundant about Short Messaging Service message at all.
01:56:57 <kmc> to care about
01:57:10 <pikhq> The service is for short messaging, and you have a message through it.
01:57:12 <Gregor> kmc: Agreed!
01:57:25 <Lumpio-> I like the new automatic ATM machines
01:57:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, "Short SMS Service" is redundant.
01:57:34 <kmc> Lumpio-: HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHA FUNNAY JOKE
01:57:34 <Vorpal> that was the point
01:57:36 * shachaf sends pikhq a short SMS message.
01:57:47 <kmc> it's not like 20 people have already made that joke in the past 5 min
01:57:56 <Lumpio-> I'M ON FIRE
01:58:00 <Lumpio-> I know.
01:58:01 <kmc> LET'S ALL USE ACRONYMS REDUNDANTLY GUYS, ON PURPOSE
01:58:02 <madbr> yawn
01:58:06 <kmc> IT'S IRONY
01:58:10 <kmc> I.R.O.N.Y.
01:58:13 <Lumpio-> RAS syndrome day
01:58:23 <Vorpal> Lumpio-, pay royalties. I started it with the compact CD disc (minidisc)
01:58:26 <kmc> fuckinfg nerds
01:58:31 <kmc> i should get drunk
01:58:33 <pikhq> kmc: Have you filed with the Department of Redundancy Department?
01:58:37 <madbr> surfin the web on my pc computer
01:58:41 <kmc> instead i'm going to eat a pizza
01:58:51 <Lumpio-> >joins #esoteric >complains about nerds
01:58:52 <shachaf> kmc: Hey, I wish I had a pizza right now.
01:58:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, You meant the Redundant Department of Redundancy Department?
01:59:19 <shachaf> kmc: Is your pizza vegetarian?
01:59:31 <kmc> Lumpio-: hey, i like interesting nerd conversations
01:59:32 <madbr> veggie pizza is nice
01:59:39 <kmc> not Standard Nerd Conversation #15
01:59:51 <kmc> next up: i don't care about sports and I want you to know this
01:59:52 <madbr> it has tons of nice things on it
01:59:54 <pikhq> $relevant_xkcd
01:59:59 <kmc> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20120712.gif
02:00:09 * pikhq actually watches football
02:00:14 <Vorpal> the issue with pizzas is that too many seem to contain tomatoes. Sure there are those without, but I would say that the majority of pizzas found over here contain tomatoes
02:00:30 <Vorpal> don't know if it is the same elsewhere
02:00:38 <madbr> how is that an issue
02:00:41 <kmc> itidus21: please weigh in regarding pizzas and tomatoes
02:00:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Here, pizza *typically* only contains tomato sauce.
02:00:51 <Vorpal> madbr, because I don't like tomato?
02:01:02 <madbr> ahah then you're screwed yes
02:01:02 <Vorpal> tomatoes*
02:01:04 <kmc> shachaf: I think I'll get a prosciutto calzone, actually. So, no.
02:01:16 <pikhq> I suppose some pizzas contain sun-dried tomatoes, but those aren't the "typical" ones.
02:01:33 <shachaf> kmc: I recommend a vegetarian pizza.r
02:01:38 <kmc> yeah
02:01:41 <kmc> i probably should get one
02:01:43 <kmc> to be a good person
02:01:55 <kmc> i don't like "veggie pizza" generally, but i do like (say) mushrooms and pineapples
02:01:57 <Vorpal> <kmc> next up: i don't care about sports and I want you to know this <-- oh I care about some sports
02:02:00 <madbr> also nice: spicy chicken, mexican
02:02:02 <Vorpal> mostly esports
02:02:08 * shachaf doesn't like "veggie pizza"
02:02:11 <Vorpal> don't really care about physical sports though
02:02:17 <madbr> depends on the kind of veggies it has
02:02:28 <madbr> onions, olives => yum
02:02:54 <shachaf> There are a lot of vegetables that I don't like that much, for being vegetarian.
02:03:00 <kmc> i dislike onions and, because this is the internet, my opinion of onions is also an objectively true fact
02:03:00 <shachaf> And a few that I really hate.
02:03:02 <shachaf> Like bell peppers.
02:03:11 <Vorpal> kmc, what about garlic?
02:03:14 <kmc> i love garlic
02:03:16 <shachaf> Bell peppers = the devil
02:03:18 <kmc> can't get enough garlic
02:03:20 <Vorpal> kmc, good for you
02:03:20 <madbr> shachaf: what about hot peppers? :D
02:03:29 <madbr> jalapeno poppers
02:03:29 <pikhq> Friggin' bell peppers. They're peppers with too little flavor!
02:03:31 <kmc> i'm told that shallots are halfway between onion and garlic
02:03:34 <pikhq> 'Specially the green ones.
02:03:37 <shachaf> madbr: Less devil than bell.
02:03:38 <kmc> but i don't have a strong opinion of them yet
02:03:40 <pikhq> Jerks, not even ripe.
02:03:45 <Vorpal> kmc, as I don't have to kill you know due to taking taste way too seriously (as is the tradition on the internet)
02:03:54 <shachaf> pikhq: Too *little*?
02:04:07 <shachaf> pikhq: Their flavor -- and smell -- and texture -- makes me want to vomit.
02:04:08 <pikhq> shachaf: Why would you want peppers without capsaicin?
02:04:12 <soundnfury> kmc: if you think we're bad, try reading comp.lang.c
02:04:15 <madbr> shachaf: hah you remind me of one guy I met
02:04:18 <soundnfury> and ask them about the declaration of main
02:04:23 <kmc> haha
02:04:25 <Vorpal> I don't really like too much pepper
02:04:28 <madbr> was vegan, didn't like salad
02:04:31 <soundnfury> oh and see if you can fit in a cast of the return value of malloc while you're at it
02:04:32 <kmc> shachaf: do you like szechuan peppercorn?
02:04:37 <Vorpal> a bit of traditional black pepper is enough for me
02:04:38 <pikhq> shachaf: Also: green bell peppers are literally unripe. This is just evil.
02:04:57 <itidus21> hmm
02:05:04 <madbr> his diet consisted of veggie burgers, KFC potato wedges, chips and various other crunchies and sugary things
02:05:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't really go above black pepper when it comes to pepper
02:05:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: What a bland existence.
02:05:53 <itidus21> a pizza base as an ingredient works with just about everything
02:05:54 <madbr> I buy those pots of minced chili at the corner store
02:05:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, eh, I add more garlic instead
02:06:04 <madbr> and then I put that shit on everything
02:06:06 <Vorpal> pikhq, you can't have too much garlic
02:06:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: Okay, that's at least respectable.
02:06:27 <shachaf> main(argc, argv) char **argv; { return 0; }
02:06:28 <pikhq> ♥ garlic
02:06:32 <madbr> today I had chicken nuggets with honey and chili paste
02:06:34 <shachaf> kmc: I don't know.
02:06:51 <kmc> shachaf: do you know about it?
02:06:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, I ate at an Indian restaurant once (and I ordered extra mild). I'm never going to eat at an Indian restaurant again!
02:07:01 <Vorpal> way too spicy
02:07:01 <shachaf> pikhq: Green bell peppers, red bell peppers, yellow, orange, blue, I don't care.
02:07:03 <madbr> vorpal: what
02:07:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: The *mild* was too spicy?
02:07:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, yes
02:07:19 <madbr> :O
02:07:19 <itidus21> on pizzas, i generally go for olives, mushrooms, anchovies, cows, pigs, chickens
02:07:19 <pikhq> shachaf: They're still in a shitty place, mind you.
02:07:23 <pikhq> shachaf: Sans capsaicin.
02:07:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's sad.
02:07:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, sure it tasted good, but it played hell with my mouth
02:08:00 <madbr> you need the antidote
02:08:01 <itidus21> i tend to assume a pizza will have a base of tomato, garlic and cheese, however, when my brother cooked vegan pizzas i found that you can taste the ingredients more without the cheese
02:08:09 <Vorpal> madbr, ?
02:08:12 <pikhq> What, do you guys do a British-style "boil the flavor out" diet? :P
02:08:12 <shachaf> kmc: I don't know.
02:08:18 <madbr> indians have that crazy yougurt drink
02:08:31 <madbr> absorbs capsaicin
02:08:45 <pikhq> Yeah, that's pretty good stuff.
02:08:50 <Vorpal> madbr, yeah I used that. Too bad I don't really like yougurt though.
02:08:58 <pikhq> Heathen!
02:09:14 <Vorpal> Tomato, yougurt and fish. Those are the mostly random things I really hate eating.
02:09:18 <madbr> you need to get good yogurt, not cheap crap
02:09:20 <pikhq> I suppose next you'll tell me you don't like bacon.
02:09:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh I love bacon
02:09:39 <pikhq> Mmm, cured pig-meats.
02:09:41 <itidus21> i eat fish practically every day
02:09:49 <kmc> madbr: lassi?
02:09:54 <madbr> there's a large difference between a good yogurt brand and whatever cheap dental paste you can find
02:09:55 <kmc> mango lassi is fucking amazing
02:09:58 <madbr> kmc: yes
02:10:02 <kmc> also want to try bhang lassi sometime
02:10:12 <Vorpal> speaking of dental paste. I forgot mint
02:10:17 <Vorpal> I really don't like mint either
02:11:38 <madbr> let me guess, you don't like beer either? :D
02:11:44 <madbr> or coffee? :D
02:11:45 <Vorpal> madbr, I'm a teetotaller
02:11:56 <Vorpal> cinnamon I have a slight negative opinion on. It doesn't taste good, but it is editable.
02:12:05 <madbr> cilantro?
02:12:07 <pikhq> Sickening.
02:12:18 <Vorpal> as for coffee, the taste is okay, but eh, I can stay awake anyway
02:12:33 <Vorpal> cilantro? no clue what that is. Google Translate time
02:12:40 <madbr> aka coriander leaves
02:12:44 <Vorpal> oh right
02:12:55 <Vorpal> madbr, no opinion either way
02:13:28 <pikhq> Guess you're not one of the unfortunate people who have a gene making it taste like soap, then.
02:13:34 <madbr> thai food? :D
02:13:52 <pikhq> madbr: "Yes please."
02:13:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, I honestly don't know if I ever eaten coriander though.
02:14:01 <Vorpal> madbr, never tried
02:14:15 <Vorpal> I like Chinese restaurants though
02:14:26 <madbr> viet?
02:14:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: Thai is profoundly spicy.
02:14:29 <Vorpal> and Italian ones
02:14:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would guess the answer is "no" then
02:14:41 <Vorpal> madbr, huh?
02:14:46 <madbr> vietnamese
02:14:50 <Vorpal> no idea
02:14:55 <Vorpal> never tried
02:14:58 -!- comex has joined.
02:15:05 <pikhq> Also peanutty in some cases...
02:15:21 <Vorpal> peanuts aren't used a lot in Sweden really
02:15:22 <madbr> haven't tried extremely hot thai yet
02:15:29 <Vorpal> we see it as something rather American
02:15:37 <pikhq> To be fair, it is.
02:15:42 <pikhq> We love our peanuts.
02:15:42 <Vorpal> peanut butter is very definitely regarded as an American thing over here
02:15:47 <pikhq> Especially peanut butter.
02:15:51 <Vorpal> I think it tastes meh. Editable sure, but what is the point
02:16:07 <madbr> vorpal: makes a good sauce for skewers :D
02:16:13 <pikhq> Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.
02:16:16 <Vorpal> madbr, Parse Error
02:16:31 <Vorpal> I have no idea what you are talking about
02:16:37 <Vorpal> pikhq, also you go crazy with apple pies
02:16:45 <madbr> peanut butter + thai hot sauce + some jalapenos
02:16:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes. They are delicious.
02:17:09 <madbr> (the thai hot and really sweet sauce)
02:17:28 <madbr> + maybe some extra garlic if the thai hot sweet sauce doesn't already have tons
02:18:03 <Vorpal> the Swedish image of a stereotypical American: eats peanut butter, apple pies and hamburgers. Drives an oversized car and drives it even if he is just going like 4 houses away from home. Is most likely overweight. Has a gun without being a hunter.
02:18:19 <madbr> make some meat cubes, let that marinate in the sauce, put the cubes on some skewers (ie make kebabs), put on barbecue
02:18:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, how accurate is it?
02:18:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ish.
02:18:37 <itidus21> vorpal, i would guess thats probably true on average
02:18:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: No American eats peanut butter straight, for one...
02:18:42 <madbr> keep some of the sauce for putting on the kebabs after cooking
02:18:44 <Vorpal> itidus21, that is kind of sad
02:18:49 <itidus21> im not american
02:18:51 <itidus21> im just guessing
02:18:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you mean "straight"?
02:18:59 <Vorpal> sure I meant on toast or such
02:19:04 <Vorpal> possibly on the apple pie
02:19:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Ah.
02:19:06 <Vorpal> wouldn't surprise me
02:19:12 <pikhq> Peanut butter on toast is a common thing.
02:19:19 <madbr> apple pie is american?
02:19:19 <Vorpal> if not, you should try peanut butter on apple pie
02:19:21 <pikhq> More common is as part of a sandwich, or as an ingredient.
02:19:29 <pikhq> Apple pie is typically done with ice cream.
02:19:30 <kmc> shachaf: szeuchan peppercorn produces a tingly sensation that is said to be like licking a 9 volt battery
02:19:30 <itidus21> Vorpal: american restaurants enjoy releasing burgers designed to give health problems :D
02:19:35 <Vorpal> madbr, yes definitely. Sure it happens elsewhere. But over there it is a constant state
02:19:36 <kmc> it's totally unlike spicy peppers or pretty much anything else
02:19:43 <pikhq> Hamburgers are very common.
02:19:50 <pikhq> Like, that *is* the stereotypical meal.
02:19:52 <itidus21> i mean.. like.. monster burgers
02:19:56 <kmc> itidus21: yes it's a conspiracy by the man that you're fat
02:20:06 <kmc> it couldn't possibly be that the restaurants are just producing what people want to eat
02:20:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Nearly all US cars are probably oversized by your standards.
02:20:22 -!- azaq23 has joined.
02:20:33 <kmc> i have eaten scoops of peanut butter out of the jar
02:20:33 <madbr> I'm not sure I like szechuan pepper
02:20:35 <itidus21> kmc: its a pleasant coincedence..
02:20:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would say we have a large car, it being a station wagon. But it is small compared to the american ones
02:20:42 <Vorpal> let me find an image
02:20:43 <shachaf> kmc: I've never licked a 9-volt battery.
02:20:45 <madbr> it's kinda like flavoring stuff with cedar fruit
02:20:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: We wouldn't drive somewhere actually that close, but we would probably drive distances you'd consider walking distance just because it's not sane to walk most places.
02:20:55 <itidus21> people want to eat satirically unhealthy burgers
02:20:59 <pikhq> Vorpal: Statistically, we are fairly likely to be overweight.
02:21:08 <madbr> burgers aren't too bad
02:21:13 <madbr> it's the cola that kills you
02:21:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, this https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Fiat_Marea_Weekend_front_20090329.jpg
02:21:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: And the gun ownership thing is mostly rural areas or parts of the South.
02:21:22 <Vorpal> pikhq, do you consider that large?
02:21:25 <itidus21> "As many fast-food chains introduce healthier fare amid fears of being sued, Hardees is bucking the trend, serving up a megaburger with 1,420 calories and 107 grams of fat."
02:21:32 <kmc> isn't the number of calories you consume far more important than the particular composition of the food?
02:21:40 <kmc> i mean if you ate 20 "healthy" burgers t hat would be pretty bad too
02:21:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Small-to-average.
02:21:45 <itidus21> The "Monster Thickburger" two 1/3-pound slabs of Angus beef, four strips of bacon, three slices of cheese and mayonnaise on a buttered sesame seed bun sells alone for $5.49, $7.09 with fries and a soda.
02:22:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would consider it large. Especially when I reverse it into a parking slot.
02:22:09 <kmc> and yeah
02:22:12 <kmc> non-diet soda is just dumb
02:22:18 <kmc> learn to like diet soda taste, or drink something else
02:22:19 <madbr> kmc: yeah but just compare that to the soft drink tubs that comes with them
02:22:29 <Vorpal> <kmc> isn't the number of calories you consume far more important than the particular composition of the food? <-- not really iirc
02:22:30 <madbr> soft drinks suck
02:22:41 <Vorpal> you want a bit of everything and not too much of anything
02:22:46 <madbr> they are the worst cheap industrial crap
02:22:48 <Vorpal> and some healthy exercise as well
02:23:22 <madbr> drink pepsi in restaurants, whatever, they need a profit margin after all
02:23:26 <pikhq> Vorpal: We have tons of people driving fairly *large* pickup trucks.
02:23:31 <Vorpal> madbr, I drink water in there
02:23:32 <madbr> drink pepsi at home, are you crazy?
02:23:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not because they actually use it. But because they just want a giant vehicle.
02:23:43 <itidus21> and i think some places have these deals that if you can eat the whole meal you can have it for free (but i admit its all a bit satirical)
02:23:47 <Vorpal> why do people do carbonated drinks. They mess up my stomach
02:23:54 <Vorpal> and it doesn't add to the taste
02:24:09 <madbr> advertisement
02:24:30 <kmc> pikhq: it's a prisoner's dilemma, if you are driving a massive car and get into a collision with someone driving a less massive car, you will do better
02:24:32 <madbr> I think at some point coke or pepsi tried doing less ads, and the sales fell
02:24:47 <kmc> and we can't stop driving so many cars and having so many collisions because it's The American Way
02:24:48 <Vorpal> pikhq, my parents actually have a reason to own a station wagon. My mom is a garden nerd. That car can take 15 x 50 kg bags of earth or manure
02:25:07 <kmc> god forbid we should make transportation the responsibility of trained experts rather than every drunken idiot
02:25:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, would likely have had a smaller car if it wasn't for that
02:25:33 <Vorpal> kmc, your driving test is a joke
02:25:40 <kmc> my driving test?
02:25:43 * kmc doesn't have a driving test
02:25:45 <Vorpal> no the US one
02:25:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: European small vehicles literally don't sell in the US.
02:25:52 <Vorpal> and US car safety regulations the same
02:25:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: There's not a US driving test.
02:25:54 <kmc> Vorpal: there isn't a "US driving test"
02:26:02 <kmc> every state has their own test and procedures for granting licenses
02:26:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: There's 50 driving tests.
02:26:03 <Vorpal> right
02:26:08 <Vorpal> most of them are jokes
02:26:09 <kmc> pikhq: probably at least 52
02:26:10 <shachaf> Just 50?
02:26:11 <Vorpal> from what I heard
02:26:14 <pikhq> kmc: Ah, duh.
02:26:25 <pikhq> DC, Puerto Rico, et al.
02:26:42 <Vorpal> I mean come on, you don't regulate the maximum light emitted from the half-light (or whatever you call that in English)
02:26:49 <shachaf> In the US Virgin Islands they drive on the left side of the road.
02:26:52 <kmc> federalism isn't quite dead, it's just that now the states handle whatever the federal government doesn't want to do, rather than having some actual soverignty
02:26:58 <kmc> shachaf: really?
02:26:58 <Vorpal> from what I read your car headlamp rules are a joke compared to EU
02:27:07 <shachaf> kmc: Well, at least on the one island I was on.
02:27:12 <Vorpal> read the WP article about car headlamps
02:27:12 <kmc> there are federal car standards and state ones as well
02:27:20 <kmc> for example california is famous for more strict emissions standards
02:27:28 <kmc> shachaf: Wikipedia confirms it
02:27:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, ^
02:27:54 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, our licensing and regulations are lax in general.
02:27:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:28:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: In part because you basically can't hold down a job without a vehicle.
02:28:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, they were overly strict before. Only permitting round ones from like the 1950s to the 1970s or so iirc
02:28:24 <kmc> except in certain areas
02:28:28 <kmc> ^ pikhq
02:28:32 <pikhq> kmc: Yes.
02:28:37 <Vorpal> and no smooth glass in front to reduce areodynamic drag
02:28:45 <Vorpal> what were you guys thinking?
02:29:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Protectionism, of course.
02:29:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, huh?
02:29:14 <pikhq> If it's impossible to sell a European vehicle in the US, that protects the US car industry!
02:29:16 <kmc> gotta compete with the wily Japanese
02:29:20 <pikhq> ... Yes, this is a mindset.
02:29:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, they just made slight modifications
02:29:36 <pikhq> You'll note that this didn't actually work out too well. :)
02:29:41 <Vorpal> indeed
02:29:55 <kmc> turns out that without competition, they made shit cars!
02:30:05 <Vorpal> and you use (used?) your own voltage standards for the car headlamps
02:30:19 <Vorpal> 12.8 instead of 12 V iirc
02:30:22 <Vorpal> or something like that
02:31:02 <madbr> the one thing I don't get is 50 vs 60 hz hdtv
02:31:07 <Vorpal> "The first dual-filament halogen bulb (to produce a low and a high beam with only one bulb), the H4, was released in 1971 and quickly became the predominant headlamp bulb throughout the world except in the United States, where the H4 is still not legal for automotive use. In 1992, the Americans created their own standard for a bulb called HB2/9003, almost identical to H4 except with more stringent const
02:31:08 <Vorpal> raints on filament geometry and positional variance, and power consumption and light output expressed at the U.S. test voltage of 12.8V."
02:31:15 <Vorpal> madbr, hm?
02:31:32 <pikhq> madbr: That's just hysterical raisins.
02:31:41 <Vorpal> madbr, what are you talking about?
02:31:56 <madbr> why is there more than 1 hdtv standard
02:32:01 <Vorpal> the vertical refresh rate?
02:32:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: Some places use 1080i50, others use 1080i60.
02:32:04 <pikhq> Yes.
02:32:21 <Vorpal> I thought TV used like 24 or 30 FPS
02:32:21 <madbr> so ridiculous
02:32:26 <madbr> aha no
02:32:32 <kmc> well the specs for broadcast TV are completely different in USA vs elsewhere
02:32:35 <kmc> it's not just framerate
02:32:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: 50/60 Hz.
02:32:46 <kmc> Vorpal: NTSC (US and some other places) uses 29.97 FPS
02:32:52 <kmc> PAL (most of Europe) uses 25 FPS
02:32:55 <kmc> most film uses 24
02:32:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, that much? Aren't movies generally 24 FPS?
02:32:58 <madbr> 60 fields per second
02:33:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
02:33:07 <kmc> interlaced half-frames
02:33:10 <Vorpal> pikhq, how do you even properly scale that when broadcasting TV?
02:33:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: In Europe, they speed up the film.
02:33:26 <madbr> tbh I call it 50 and 60 fps
02:33:26 <Vorpal> I mean, when airing a movie
02:33:47 <kmc> yeah, 24 Hz to 25 Hz is done by speeding up and adjusting audio pitch
02:33:48 <madbr> you could say it's only half the lines but I think it's still a frame
02:33:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: In the US, they use a pulldown pattern, so not all frames are shown for the exact same amount of time.
02:33:57 <madbr> just that every other frame is offset by half a frame
02:33:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, wouldn't that be jerky?
02:34:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: Slightly. It's hard to notice.
02:34:11 <itidus21> how relevant.
02:34:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do DVD players do then on a typical PC?
02:34:22 <kmc> it's something you can train yourself to notice and then be insufferable about
02:34:35 <kmc> what really bugs me these days are the TVs that do frame interpolation
02:34:39 <madbr> vorpal: they probably just randomly vsync
02:34:47 <Vorpal> hah yeah
02:34:49 <pikhq> Vorpal: Deinterlace and inverse pulldown. Also ignore the pulldown pattern if it's soft pulldown.
02:34:58 <shachaf> kmc: Is "Television remote" redundant?
02:34:59 <itidus21> i was reading about an upcoming south park game based on LOTR, and they were talking about using pulldown pattern to convert the walk cycle from 24fps to 30fps or whatever it is
02:35:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, sorry?
02:35:13 <Vorpal> deinterlace I understood
02:35:13 <kmc> 30 FPS content looks "cheaper" than 24 FPS
02:35:14 <Vorpal> the rest?
02:35:15 <pikhq> (soft pulldown is where the video is stored 24fps, but with instructions on how to render it in 30fps)
02:35:18 <kmc> because video is cheaper than film
02:35:29 <kmc> an arbitrary association which has become entrenched in the way we consume content
02:35:30 <Vorpal> kmc, eh, I prefer 60 FPS, it looks smoother
02:35:33 <pikhq> Vorpal: Inverse pulldown is where you match the pulldown pattern and pull out the 24fps content.
02:35:45 <kmc> so these interpolating TVs make everything look like a Mexican soap opera
02:35:56 <kmc> (in the words of Jack Donaghy)
02:35:56 <Vorpal> kmc, you can see the difference between watching a game on youtube and playing it yourself at 60 FPS, and I don't just mean the compression
02:35:57 <pikhq> kmc: Except shittier.
02:36:00 <kmc> Vorpal: that's not what I mean
02:36:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
02:36:06 <kmc> I'm not talking about which one looks better objectively
02:36:10 <kmc> or even subjectively
02:36:15 <madbr> vorpal: games were lucky
02:36:23 <madbr> they started at 60 fps
02:36:24 <pikhq> I wouldn't actually care about the interpolation (much), except that they give you artifacts.
02:36:38 <kmc> i'm talking about the association formed from having lots of low production quality content at 30+ FPS and lots of high-budget or "artsy" content at 24 FPS
02:36:38 <Vorpal> madbr, you can easily go higher with most games though
02:36:40 <madbr> so the "more frames = better" mentality set in
02:36:41 <Vorpal> if the hardware can do it
02:36:47 <Vorpal> madbr, anyway consoles generally do 30 FPS
02:36:49 <kmc> james cameron also complained about this
02:36:50 <madbr> on a computer, sure
02:37:01 <madbr> vorpal: before 3d they did 60 fps
02:37:04 <kmc> because 3D films don't really work at 24 FPS, but anything above looks "cheap" to at least some viewers
02:37:14 <Vorpal> madbr, I know people who have 120 Hz monitors. Generally for usage with 3D glasses
02:37:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Older consoles actually did 60fps, and emitted an invalid TV signal to do progressive scan at half the vertical resolution.
02:37:46 <Vorpal> pikhq, how comes that worked at all?
02:37:48 <Vorpal> also huh
02:37:57 <madbr> SNES does progressive scan actually
02:38:07 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see Simon Marlow's concurrent and parallel Haskell slides?
02:38:13 <Vorpal> I only ever played SNES in emulator
02:38:17 <pikhq> Because TVs aren't strict validating devices, they're just NTSC/PAL decoders driving a CRT.
02:38:24 <madbr> essentially they just ignored all the bullshit timing you had to do to have the lines offset half the frames
02:38:47 <madbr> and generated the same timing every frame
02:38:53 <pikhq> Yup.
02:39:02 <shachaf> kmc: They're good.
02:39:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, surely you can't get 60 FPS on the TV from that though?
02:39:08 <shachaf> kmc: http://community.haskell.org/~simonmar/slides/cadarache2012/
02:39:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: Sure you can.
02:39:20 <pikhq> Vorpal: They're drawing 60 fields per second...
02:39:23 <madbr> vorpal: well, TVs are 60 fps
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02:39:42 <madbr> but you offset your timing on half the frames
02:39:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: And if you've hacked the timing somewhat so they draw the lines of each field at the same place, you're basically doing 60 frames per second.
02:40:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, wouldn't there be problems with the time the phosphor stayed lit between 60 FPS and 25 FPS (for PAL)
02:40:12 <madbr> which gets you 480 lines instead of the real value of 240 lines
02:40:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: PAL systems did 50fps instead.
02:40:26 <Vorpal> ah
02:40:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, still
02:40:32 <madbr> SNES etc were progressive scan so they actually do a 240 line picture
02:40:40 <madbr> and you can see the black between the lines
02:40:41 <pikhq> Vorpal: And the answer is "yes".
02:40:44 <Vorpal> what is the resolution of PAL then
02:40:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh? So there were issues?
02:41:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: Just somewhat weird brightnesses, IIRC.
02:41:11 <Vorpal> ah
02:41:21 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's not like drawing on the phosphor too often actually causes *major* issues.
02:41:31 <Vorpal> fair enough
02:41:48 <madbr> irl most tvs were so fuzzy it didn't really matter anyways :D
02:42:01 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about it fading too slow when the screen changes though? Ghost images and such I mean
02:42:12 <pikhq> Older PAL consoles just did 240 lines...
02:42:12 <Vorpal> madbr, hardware antialias!
02:42:30 <madbr> afaik CRTs fade really fast actually
02:42:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, and usual PAL is how many lines?
02:42:40 <pikhq> Vorpal: IIRC, the phosphor fades really fast.
02:42:54 <madbr> so fast that most of the picture you see is actually just a residual image on your retina
02:42:55 <Vorpal> then why does 25 FPS even work
02:43:03 <madbr> that's how the light gun works
02:43:08 <pikhq> Vorpal: They're scanning it 50/60 times per second and interlacing because they needed to scan that fast to not blink.
02:43:12 <Vorpal> madbr, ah right yes
02:43:28 <Vorpal> right, forgot the interlacing
02:43:58 <madbr> light gun watches for a change in brightness
02:44:05 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway I found CRT computer monitors painful to use at less than 75 Hz
02:44:14 <Vorpal> and even then they are not nice to use
02:44:23 <madbr> once that happens you know the timing and can figure out which pixel you've been aiming at :D
02:44:48 <Vorpal> heh
02:45:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: PAL is usually 576i.
02:45:23 <kmc> Real Programmers use an analog vector generator with a vector CRT
02:45:39 <Vorpal> so doing 240p... right someone said they left black lines above
02:45:43 <pikhq> Yup.
02:46:05 <Vorpal> what generation of consoles stopped doing this craziness?
02:46:28 <madbr> ps2 i think
02:46:45 <Vorpal> what is that in nintendo
02:46:54 <Vorpal> gamecube?
02:46:58 <Vorpal> I don't remember
02:47:04 <madbr> had enough fillrate to render in like 640x480 :D
02:47:04 <itidus21> technically ps2 in nintendo is gamecube
02:47:13 <madbr> yeah gamecube is interlaced
02:47:27 <Vorpal> hm
02:47:36 <pikhq> Yeah, pretty sure it was PS2/GC/Xbox.
02:47:49 <itidus21> gamecube can do component out.. i had component out on mine...
02:47:51 <Vorpal> did they go 30 FPS then too?
02:48:04 <Vorpal> or wait I guess not all modern console games are 30 FPS, only most
02:48:09 <pikhq> Mostly, yeah.
02:48:13 <itidus21> but when i traded it in.. the bitch at that store treated it like garbage
02:48:17 <Vorpal> pikhq, I would be surprising if fighting games weren't 60 FPS
02:48:23 <Vorpal> surprised*
02:48:29 <pikhq> Vorpal: The screen's not 60 FPS, though.
02:48:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh?
02:48:35 <madbr> actually even PSX can do interlaced
02:48:39 <madbr> but there's no point
02:48:39 <pikhq> It just redraws 60 times per second.
02:48:43 <Vorpal> madbr, PSX?
02:48:48 <madbr> play station 1
02:48:51 <itidus21> :D
02:48:54 <Vorpal> PS1 you mean then?
02:49:02 <itidus21> its also known as psx for some reason
02:49:04 <madbr> usually it's abreviated PSX
02:49:08 <madbr> for some reason yeah
02:49:18 <Vorpal> pikhq, what is the refresh rate for the screen then?
02:49:36 <pikhq> Vorpal: 60 Hz.
02:49:58 <itidus21> incidentally psone was a re-release of ps1/psx .. a pointless thing really
02:50:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, doesn't that equate to 60 FPS max possible?
02:50:22 <itidus21> can't actually do anything new, just comes in a case which is cheaper to manufacture
02:50:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: But if you're actually drawing a standard TV signal you only get 60 fields per second.
02:50:39 <madbr> iti: and probably combined all the chips together :D
02:51:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, with a field you mean?
02:51:11 <madbr> in fact I wonder if the snes can do interlace
02:51:42 <Vorpal> pikhq, also which TV signal standard is this
02:51:55 <pikhq> Vorpal: You get the same amount of *motion* with 240p60 and 480i30, BTW.
02:52:11 <Vorpal> uhu
02:52:19 <pikhq> It's not that you get only 30 full frames per second with 480i30.
02:52:19 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you mean with motion here
02:52:32 <pikhq> You get 60 frames with every other line chopped out.
02:52:38 <Vorpal> I know what interlaced is yes
02:53:02 <Vorpal> the US standard did 29.something right?
02:53:04 <Vorpal> not 30
02:53:08 <madbr> 29.97 I think
02:53:17 <itidus21> _features_ of the psone as listed on wikipedia is: added protection against the use of modchips, a lack of the original PlayStation's parallel and serial ports,
02:53:19 <Vorpal> maybe it is close enough
02:53:28 <pikhq> Yes, when we switched to color we divided the framerate by 1001 to prevent interference between the color signal and audio signal.
02:53:30 <Vorpal> though over time you should run into some issues
02:53:33 <madbr> and it's just some thing they introduced later to deal with some timing issue on some shitty TVs
02:53:39 <pikhq> Erm. Not 1001.
02:53:47 <pikhq> It's 30000/1001 frames per second, though.
02:54:14 <pikhq> madbr: No, it's color.
02:54:26 <madbr> irl stuff like SNES probably generates like 29.9fps
02:54:29 <itidus21> also psone has an external power supply!
02:54:39 <pikhq> madbr: Part of the color signal would interfere with the audio if you stuck at 30fps.
02:54:46 <madbr> since it actually only draws 524 lines per 2 frames instead of 525 lines
02:54:54 <pikhq> (IIRC)
02:54:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, why didn't you just go PAL?
02:55:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: PAL didn't exist.
02:55:10 <Vorpal> ah okay
02:55:38 <pikhq> PAL was invented to overcome NTSC's shortcomings.
02:55:49 <madbr> I think there's even a 60hz version of pal
02:55:55 <pikhq> 10 years after NTSC color came into being.
02:55:59 <pikhq> madbr: Yeah. Brazil uses it.
02:56:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, then why didn't you switch
02:57:01 <Vorpal> oh the N in NTSC stands for "national", how typical
02:57:02 <madbr> how did pal work again
02:57:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: PAL was *invented* 10 years after NTSC color was *adopted*.
02:57:16 <madbr> invert colors for every 2nd line or something like that no?
02:57:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, fair enough, what did Europe do during those 10 years?
02:57:38 <pikhq> Black-and-white.
02:57:41 <Vorpal> ah
02:57:54 <pikhq> Regular color broadcasts in Europe started in 1967.
02:58:02 <pikhq> (UK and West Germany, specifically)
02:58:23 <Vorpal> anyway, how typical of US to put "national" in a name. It is like how the UK puts "Royal" in names
02:58:30 <pikhq> At this point, NTSC color was 14 years old.
03:00:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, are the NTSC and PAL greyscale signals compatible?
03:00:11 <Vorpal> I guess not
03:00:22 <Vorpal> but why did they have separate systems there before then
03:00:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Actually, the only differences are the framerates and the frequency allocation.
03:00:48 <Vorpal> hm
03:00:54 <kmc> there are only so many ways to do analog monochromatic TV
03:01:00 <Vorpal> why did the framerates end up being different before?
03:01:15 <kmc> Vorpal: different researchers working in different countries settled on different arbitrary choices
03:01:17 <pikhq> The framerates were based on the AC frequencies.
03:01:23 <Vorpal> ah
03:01:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, why was that important though
03:01:29 <madbr> because if you don't sync to AC on an old analog tv the picture dances :D
03:01:36 <madbr> was solved later on but still
03:01:39 <Vorpal> heh
03:01:42 <pikhq> Vorpal: Because it was available as a cheap oscillator.
03:01:51 <itidus21> it ruined video forever?
03:02:04 <madbr> (ie they figured how to do actually good power supplies :D)
03:02:47 <Vorpal> madbr, switching?
03:02:52 <madbr> dunn
03:02:53 <madbr> o
03:03:39 <Vorpal> also France had their own system right
03:03:41 <Vorpal> forgot the name of it
03:03:56 <madbr> secam
03:04:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: The only differences you can have with analog black-and-white video are refresh rates, frequency allocations, and whether a low signal is white or black...
03:04:09 <madbr> essentially pal but with a different color scheme
03:04:18 <Vorpal> ah
03:04:19 <pikhq> All of these have been different in different countries.
03:04:25 <madbr> (FM color, alternating the color component on every line)
03:05:35 <Vorpal> what is the format of the audio signal of PAL? Plain FM?
03:05:40 <madbr> AM
03:05:47 <Vorpal> really, heh
03:06:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Depends".
03:06:02 <madbr> actually quadrature amplitude modulation or something
03:06:06 <Vorpal> I would expect worse sound quality then
03:06:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh?
03:06:18 <pikhq> Vorpal: There is not a single PAL OTA standard.
03:06:25 <pikhq> Vorpal: There are dozens.
03:06:26 <madbr> with amplitude of modulation = saturation and phase of modulation = hue
03:06:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, as used in Sweden
03:08:02 <madbr> or, real part of the color signal = red - luminance and imaginary part of color signal = blue - luminance
03:08:03 <madbr> I think
03:08:08 <Vorpal> pikhq, thing is I many years ago built a radio receiver from a kit (circuit board and components provided, solder yourself kind of deal) and managed to get the audio of one of the Swedish TV channels when tweaking the tuning knob. I think it was an FM receiver.
03:08:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Seems it was FM.
03:08:26 <Vorpal> well that explains that
03:08:48 <madbr> yeah TV audio is over FM
03:09:04 <pikhq> Hmm. Seems it was almost always FM.
03:09:11 <Vorpal> madbr, you said it was "quadrature amplitude modulation or something" above :P
03:09:11 <pikhq> France used AM.
03:09:23 <pikhq> And positive video modulation...
03:09:37 <kmc> quadrotor amplitude modulation
03:09:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, meaning?
03:10:11 <pikhq> Vorpal: Low signals are white, high signals are black.
03:10:23 <Vorpal> makes sense
03:10:31 <Vorpal> it is probably the most natural way to do it
03:10:37 <Vorpal> err wait I misread
03:10:43 <Vorpal> it is NOT the most natural way to do it
03:10:49 <pikhq> The exact opposite of what's used in every other system that survived past the 50s.
03:10:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, why would anyone do that, is there some technical advantage of it?
03:11:04 <pikhq> No technical advantage at all.
03:11:24 <Vorpal> any technical disadvantage though?
03:11:27 <madbr> vorpal: oh, QAM is for the color
03:11:29 <pikhq> Not that I know of.
03:11:32 <kmc> french system has to be different
03:11:56 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess at least one of them needs to invert the signal controlling the power to the cathode ray though?
03:12:03 <pikhq> The UK also used to use positive modulation.
03:12:13 <pikhq> They shut off broadcasts on that signal ages ago though.
03:12:20 <kmc> what was that called?
03:12:27 <pikhq> System A.
03:12:48 <kmc> catchy
03:13:12 <Vorpal> pikhq, which type of modulation needs to invert the signal compared to the cathode ray tube power though?
03:13:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Dunno.
03:13:22 <Vorpal> one would have to
03:13:25 <madbr> inverted signals make sense no?
03:13:34 <madbr> ie high signal = black
03:14:23 <Vorpal> madbr, the case of high = no beam hitting the phosphor
03:14:29 <Vorpal> maaaybe?
03:14:56 <madbr> there's a good reason
03:15:02 <Vorpal> oh?
03:15:05 <madbr> if high signal = white
03:15:13 <Vorpal> yes, makes sense
03:15:16 <madbr> how do you correct for signal amplitude?
03:15:32 <Vorpal> I'm not sure what you mean
03:15:49 <madbr> suppose you receive the signal at half the amplitude you were expecting
03:16:12 <Vorpal> madbr, I presume you need to use transistors or similar to drive the high voltage to the cathode ray anyway
03:16:22 <madbr> like, you need 0 to 1
03:16:26 <madbr> but you got 0 to 0.5
03:16:33 <Vorpal> so you could just adjust the strength of it there
03:16:48 <madbr> yeah but you need to guess the amplification factor
03:17:02 <kmc> you know how TVs used to have all those knobs on the front
03:17:05 <Vorpal> won't you need to do that in the other case too?
03:17:08 <kmc> and you have to fiddle with them to get a good picture
03:17:11 <madbr> no see
03:17:12 <Vorpal> and yeah they used to have lot of knobs
03:17:18 <madbr> if you make black the highest level
03:17:21 <kmc> damn kids these days don't know about knobs
03:17:33 <madbr> then at least once per scanline you have a sync
03:17:46 <Vorpal> kmc, oh come on, I had a TV with lots of knobs until like 7 years ago.
03:17:49 <Vorpal> kmc, from the 80s
03:17:53 <madbr> (which is encoded as hyper-black)
03:18:08 <Vorpal> madbr, surely you could just do a similar white sync instead?
03:18:10 <pikhq> madbr: You actually can tell what the amplitude is.
03:18:36 <itidus21> i remember one of my first tv's had sliders for colour, brightness, contrast
03:18:39 <pikhq> madbr: Because all signals are relative to the absolute low point of the sync signal, and you have a period of regular black after the sync.
03:18:39 <madbr> vorpal: would be harder on TVs :D
03:18:56 <itidus21> and that you could make the pictures larger by turning up some of these sliders
03:19:20 <itidus21> i don't know a better word than slider
03:19:35 <madbr> right, since you're guaranteed to have the lowest possible level at least once per scanline (sync), then you can easily guess the signal amplitude
03:19:41 <madbr> if you use negative signaling
03:19:48 <itidus21> Colour [-----[]-----------]
03:20:19 <madbr> yeah I remember our tv having settings for that, but you changed them digitally with the remote
03:20:29 <madbr> and irl you could just make everything worse mostly
03:20:31 <kmc> shachaf: good call on "TV remote", by the way
03:20:40 <madbr> default adjust was fine
03:20:42 <itidus21> madbr: worse = fun
03:20:58 <kmc> when i was a small person i took a magnet to the front of our television
03:21:01 <itidus21> the red would really bleed onto everything
03:21:01 <pikhq> madbr: You're also sure to have the lowest ordinary signal level a bit higher above that.
03:21:04 <kmc> and my parents were too cheap to buy another one
03:21:10 <kmc> so for 10 years we had wrong colors on everything
03:21:23 <shachaf> kmc: That's why I made sure not to buy discount parents.
03:21:28 <kmc> -_-
03:21:36 <shachaf> It'a big up-front cost, but you're stuck with them for life.
03:21:42 <madbr> pikhq: well, yeah you're sure to have some black too
03:21:44 <Vorpal> kmc, must have been a really strong one then. Usually such things clear themselves pretty quickly
03:21:54 <Vorpal> or you can hit the degauss thingy, at least on computer CRTs
03:22:02 <madbr> yeah that came later
03:22:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, most TVs don't have degaussing coils.
03:22:16 <madbr> I think tv repairmen could degauss a tv too
03:22:24 <pikhq> Yeah. It's not hard to do.
03:22:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, but even then magnets usually don't leave lasting problems
03:22:46 <Vorpal> only temporary ones
03:23:15 <shachaf> Degauss :-(
03:23:18 * shachaf nostalg
03:23:38 <itidus21> every time you deguass a small man resembling gauss can be seen fleeing
03:24:31 <itidus21> http://img.spikedmath.com/comics/504-scumbag-gauss.png
03:25:57 <madbr> wonder how much time is left until an asshole proves p!=np
03:26:31 <itidus21> anyway im killing the topic... >.<
03:26:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, according to wikipedia the "thunk" when turing on the TV comes from automatic degaussing, don't know if that is correct though
03:26:48 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not all TVs do that. :)
03:26:56 <Vorpal> never seen one that didn't
03:27:20 <itidus21> <pikhq> madbr: Because all signals are relative to the absolute low point of the sync signal, and you have a period of regular black after the sync.
03:27:20 <itidus21> <madbr> vorpal: would be harder on TVs :D
03:27:34 <itidus21> <madbr> right, since you're guaranteed to have the lowest possible level at least once per scanline (sync), then you can easily guess the signal amplitude
03:27:34 <itidus21> <madbr> if you use negative signaling
03:27:56 <kmc> itidus21: he had to leave *something* for other people to do
03:28:28 <madbr> yeah if you use positive signaling you need at least a bit of white to figure out your signal range
03:28:46 <madbr> or you could try to guess it from the difference in level between hblank and black
03:28:57 <itidus21> wow, a whole wikipedia page for "List of things named after Carl Friedrich Gauss"
03:29:11 <madbr> /gaus/
03:32:22 <soundnfury> Gauss Facts seems indicated at this point
03:32:34 <soundnfury> http://www.gaussfacts.com/
03:32:57 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Kronos.
03:33:05 -!- Kronos has changed nick to copumpkin.
03:35:05 <shachaf> comex!
03:35:06 <shachaf> Er.
03:35:08 <shachaf> copumpkin!
03:35:14 <copumpkin> yo
03:35:17 <copumpkin> comex is cool too
03:35:24 <copumpkin> I'd be more excited about him than myself
03:35:36 <shachaf> Oh.
03:35:40 <shachaf> Never mind about you, then.
03:35:43 <shachaf> comex: Are you the dual of mex?
03:35:55 <soundnfury> copprumpkin regex
03:57:56 <itidus21> `log comex
03:58:16 <comex> shachaf: maybe
03:58:20 <itidus21> ahh!
03:58:29 <HackEgo> No output.
03:59:57 <Vorpal> hm what do you do for android an java package names if you don't own a domain?
04:01:57 <kmc> cx.goatse.MyShittyApp
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04:28:51 <Vorpal> kmc, oh come on
04:42:48 <shachaf> jabberwock.vorpal.package
04:43:17 <kmc> oh i know the right answer
04:43:30 <kmc> you create a ytmnd for your project
04:44:05 <shachaf> Vorpal: You should get a domain name.
04:44:25 <shachaf> Is Alabama a country yet?
04:46:15 <kmc> yes it's a third world country
04:49:13 <pikhq> ... Huh.
04:49:19 <pikhq> iso646.h
04:50:39 <pikhq> That and some digraphs, and you can write some really weird C.
04:52:01 <pikhq> int main(int argc, char *argv<::>) <% return not printf("Yes, really, this is C.??/n"); %>
04:56:05 <shachaf> main(argc, argv) char *argv<::>) <% return not printf("Yes, really, this is C.??/n"); %>
04:56:41 <pikhq> I don't think that'll work. IIRC C99 gets rid of K&R-style declarations.
04:56:52 <pikhq> And digraphs are C99.
04:57:25 <kmc> // Will the next line be executed????????????????/
04:57:25 <kmc> a++;
04:58:34 <pikhq> Ugh.
04:58:38 <shachaf> pikhq: Digraphs are C99?
04:58:42 <pikhq> shachaf: Yes.
04:58:50 <pikhq> shachaf: Oh, sorry, I'm wrong.
04:58:52 <shachaf> Weren't digraphs a thing invented for really old machines?
04:58:55 <pikhq> shachaf: '94 addon.
04:59:00 <pikhq> Yes.
04:59:11 <pikhq> However, iso646.h *is* C99.
04:59:31 <pikhq> shachaf: Digraphs were also invented because trigraphs (a C90 thing) were ridiculous.
04:59:39 <shachaf> s/#include <iso646.h>/#define not !/
05:00:01 <shachaf> Oh, I confused digraphs and trigraphs.
05:00:12 <pikhq> main(argc, argv) char *argv??(??); ??< return not printf("So much uglier!??/n"); ??>
05:00:52 <pikhq> Trigraphs are the ones processed basically via sed before anything else.
05:01:03 <pikhq> Whereas digraphs are synonyms for tokens.
05:01:26 <shachaf> Ah.
05:09:42 <madbr> they were invented because ebcdic was missing some characters no?
05:10:02 <kmc> i think it's because some keyboard layouts make those characters hard to type
05:11:24 <Sgeo_> "Tcl is formally just as powerful since everything is a string, but it is usually not practical to have Tcl code take Tcl scripts apart and modified, since there are few facilities available out of the box for handling Tcl scripts at a higher level than as a string of characters (there are packages for higher level handling, however)."
05:11:24 <kmc> and some national variants of ISO 646 don't have them
05:11:26 <Sgeo_> *sigh*
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05:13:30 <madbr> kmc: looking up ISO 646
05:13:36 <madbr> what the hell is this dinosaur
05:14:03 <kmc> it's ASCII and the various other national 7-bit codes based on it
05:14:54 <shachaf> ISO 8859 > ISO 646
05:15:25 <madbr> yes but where the heck was that char set used
05:15:25 <kmc> yeah
05:15:45 <kmc> ASCII? it was pretty popular bro
05:15:55 <kmc> you've probably heard of it before
05:16:10 <shachaf> kmc: You mean restricted UTF-8?
05:16:14 <kmc> u madbr o?
05:16:22 <madbr> no I mean iso646
05:16:42 <kmc> <kmc> [ISO 646 is] ASCII and the various other national 7-bit codes based on it
05:18:00 <kmc> so in ISO 646 you have 7-bit characters, with 82 positions fixed (the "invariant set") and others varying by language
05:18:18 <kmc> in ISO 8859 you have 8-bit characters, with 128 positions fixed (corresponding to all of ASCII) and the other 128 varying by language
05:18:46 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Incidentally, all valid Tcl scripts are also valid Tcl lists.
05:18:50 <kmc> and now we have Unicode, which is the same everywhere, with various different standards for representing Unicode characters as sequences of bytes
05:20:00 <Sgeo_> pikhq, but not necessarily easy-to-process lists: semicolons become part of elements and newlines are ignored when viewing a script as a list, right?
05:20:17 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Bleh, probably.
05:20:21 <madbr> yeah but what sort of real system uses iso 646
05:20:30 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Tcl metaprogramming eventually gets kinda weird.
05:20:35 <kmc> you are huffing glue or something
05:22:02 <Sgeo_> Yet Lisp metaprogramming seems like it's simpler
05:22:12 <kmc> Sgeo_: PARENTHESES LOLOLOLLOLOLLOLLOLOLOLOL
05:22:27 <pikhq> Sgeo_: That's because it is a bit simpler.
05:22:58 <Sgeo_> So why am I looking at Tcl? I think the whole starpack and Tk and event loop thing is drawing me in
05:23:18 <pikhq> Dunno. It is a neat language, at least...
05:23:39 <madbr> iso646 looks like a pie in the sky standard some idiot came up with "because ascii is to US centric"
05:24:24 <kmc> yeah, people outside the USA don't deserve computers anyway
05:24:37 <kmc> they should be happy with the free bombs we drop on them
05:25:03 <pikhq> kmc: *free freedom bombs
05:25:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_646#National_variants so basically madbr you're arguing that all of these are fictional or just never used by anyone?
05:25:35 <kmc> note the various different national standards bodies which created each one
05:25:38 <madbr> they're not fictional but I'm looking around for uses
05:25:42 <kmc> just "some idiot" right
05:26:02 <kmc> god you annoy me
05:26:32 <kmc> "That's why foreign standardizers crafted up national variants of ASCII like the German DIN 66003 which my first CP/M computer (a Sharp MZ-731) used in 1984 to communicate with its daisy wheel printer or the Danish DS 2089 mentioned by Bjarne Stroustrup in § 6.5.3 of his C++ history."
05:26:37 <madbr> aha
05:26:39 <kmc> http://czyborra.com/charsets/iso646.html
05:26:55 <madbr> yeah that's the one I saw
05:27:04 <madbr> trying to find another
05:27:05 <kmc> i mean this stuff is all much older than the Internet
05:27:11 <kmc> so don't expect to find much of it on the Internet
05:27:18 <madbr> probably much older than DOS even
05:27:42 <madbr> then why did they have to put trigraphs in C
05:27:57 <kmc> because characters like { } aren't in the ISO 646 invariant set!
05:28:12 <kmc> they don't exist in all national variants, or they might be at different code points
05:28:17 <shachaf> Are they in the covariant or the contravariant set?
05:28:22 <kmc> -_-
05:28:48 <kmc> the section "ISO-646: First attempts to internationalize the 7bit code" in that document
05:28:50 <madbr> kmc: Good enough
05:28:51 <kmc> explains the problem precisely
05:28:56 <madbr> what about digraphs
05:29:05 <madbr> which they put in in like 1994
05:29:25 <kmc> presumably some people were still using these codes in 1994
05:31:45 <kmc> TIL that the BCD in EBCDIC stands for BCD
05:33:03 <kmc> madbr: it takes years to upgrade legacy systems and it also takes years to get standards through the process
05:33:17 <madbr> fine for trigraphs
05:33:28 <madbr> but why did they have to add digraphs after that
05:33:34 <kmc> as a saner alternative to trigraphs
05:33:34 <madbr> in 1994
05:33:57 <madbr> 1994 is like PCs and amigas
05:34:00 <madbr> and macs
05:34:04 <madbr> mostly PCs
05:34:08 <pikhq> madbr: Dude, we live in a world where UTF-8 is still not ubiquitous.
05:34:10 <kmc> and a bunch of legacy systems
05:34:18 <kmc> this is the typical mind fallacy
05:34:20 <pikhq> I was *3* when UTF-8 was invented.
05:34:30 <madbr> in 1994 it was DOS's weird ass character set
05:34:35 <madbr> vs latin01
05:34:38 <kmc> you assume that the machine you had on your desk at home represents the typical computer in the world at that time
05:34:41 <shachaf> I was <3!
05:34:41 <madbr> vs latin-1 rather
05:34:43 * shachaf <3 UTF-8
05:34:50 <kmc> ignoring the huge numbers of old mainframes, industrial control systems, etc
05:34:55 <madbr> vs whatever messed up sets the Macs had
05:35:01 <madbr> all of which are 8 bit
05:35:04 <pikhq> If it takes that friggin' long for legacy charsets to die die die die, it certainly makes sense for ISO-646 based charsets to still be in use in '94.
05:35:15 <pikhq> And it's perfectly reasonable to want to use C on some of them.
05:35:23 <madbr> yeah but they already had a solution (trigraphs)
05:35:26 <kmc> these shiny but useless PC toys were probably not at the forefront of the minds of the people designing C94
05:35:31 <pikhq> Except trigraphs sucked.
05:36:06 <pikhq> Trigraphs are essentially a sed process before you hit the tokeniser.
05:36:19 <kmc> they apply inside string literals and such
05:36:20 <kmc> kinda nasty
05:36:39 <pikhq> Digraphs are just synonyms for certain tokens.
05:37:45 <kmc> yeah there are many people who would laugh at you for asserting that 1994 was "PCs and amigas"
05:37:58 <kmc> what do you think was used to do real work back then
05:38:11 <madbr> yeah well I hope their lines of crummy servers died
05:38:31 <madbr> (most of them did)
05:38:44 <pikhq> You think this now because you know what survived.
05:38:58 <pikhq> Namely, the shittiest platform around at the time.
05:39:21 <madbr> shittiest?
05:39:28 <kmc> madbr: must destroy what you don't understand, eh?
05:40:05 <madbr> no I'm pissed at them for taking a piss on C's tokenizer
05:40:09 <pikhq> madbr: The IBM PC is perhaps the single shittiest platform to have ever been notable.
05:40:36 <madbr> I'm not sure the macs compared favorably
05:40:37 <kmc> the major redeeming feature of the PC platform is that it's remarkably open
05:40:58 <kmc> which (as we're seeing today with smartphones and tablets) is not an inevitable property of successful products
05:41:03 <kmc> but rather some kind of historical accident
05:41:10 <kmc> basically IBM wasn't paying enough attention to lock it down
05:41:22 <pikhq> It's currently a 64-bit extension of a 32-bit extension of a 16-bit revision of an 8-bit CPU inspired by the *original* integrated circuit CPU. Which was 4-bit, BTW.
05:41:50 <shachaf> kmc: Did you see http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2012/07/classy-prelude ?
05:41:54 <kmc> madbr: lol you're still thinking about "PC vs Macs"
05:42:12 <madbr> pikhq: still strangled the itanium to death
05:42:14 <kmc> "as soon as Hackage comes back up"
05:42:15 <kmc> lol
05:42:20 <kmc> sounds like i missed some drama
05:42:52 <pikhq> madbr: Quality and popularity have 0 correlation. Accept it, for this is the most fundamental truth of the world.
05:43:00 <kmc> i wouldn't say 0
05:43:04 <kmc> but it's pretty weak
05:43:24 <madbr> x86 has some nice features
05:43:36 <kmc> "PC platform" ≠ x86, also
05:43:47 <madbr> aside from the randomization of the instruction set
05:43:54 <madbr> and low number of registers
05:44:06 <kmc> people always fixate on the ISA but this is one of the less interesting choices made in designing a platform
05:44:48 <pikhq> The ISA is more-or-less just the consequence of backwards compatibility decisions made on day one.
05:45:03 <madbr> all the people trying to design VLIW stuff? failed
05:45:30 <madbr> Only the better RISC architectures hold a candle
05:45:57 <pikhq> (it was designed so you could trivially machine translate 8080/8008 code to it)
05:46:25 <madbr> yeah and then they carefully designed a processor to get away from that
05:46:30 <madbr> and ended up with the i432
05:48:51 <madbr> does the ISA really matter that much once you're doing out of order execution and register renaming?
05:49:50 <pikhq> It does, but not as much as several other shitty, shitty design decisions in the platform.
05:50:01 <pikhq> Figure 1: The BIOS.
05:50:43 <itidus21> is binary technically redundant? :D
05:52:08 <itidus21> ok i was wrong its not binary
05:52:15 <itidus21> i dunno how i got that idea in my head.. basic
05:52:40 <madbr> what I'm saying is that, yes PCs have lot of baggage, but then if you look at the competing personal computers from back then, they had worse flaws
05:53:03 <kmc> why do you think we're talking about personal computers
05:53:19 <madbr> that's what the PC is
05:53:25 <madbr> that's how it took the market
05:53:53 <pikhq> Imagine if the C64 had evolved like the IBM PC. ... In '94, it would be the shittiest platform.
05:54:49 <madbr> I guess it would eventually have ended up with the 16 bit version of the 6502
05:55:07 <kmc> well we were talking about how trigraphs are necessary for programming in C on certain platforms
05:55:15 <kmc> and you seem to have assumed those platforms are "personal computers"
05:55:25 <kmc> which is extremely far from the truth
05:55:41 <kmc> aiui even programs for personal computers would often be compiled on bigger machines, in that era
05:55:57 <madbr> kmc: never heard of that one
05:57:16 <pikhq> kmc: I didn't think that was *too* common by the 90s.
05:57:33 <pikhq> Certainly it was the case earlier.
06:01:58 <madbr> but yeah as flawed as the PC was, it was probably the best of the personal computers
06:01:59 <madbr> IMHO
06:03:07 <kallisti> yes the personal computer is the best personal computer.
06:03:08 <kallisti> I agree.
06:03:13 <kallisti> nothing else could be as good of a personal computer.
06:03:20 <kmc> -_-
06:03:22 <itidus21> lol
06:03:27 <madbr> jezz
06:04:10 <kmc> redundant acronyms am i rite
06:04:11 <itidus21> raucous laughter here
06:04:52 <itidus21> i don't think redundant acronyms represents a full survey of the absurdity unfolding
06:05:13 <kallisti> I just choose to interpret PC as literally "personal computer"
06:05:23 <itidus21> what other interpretations are possible?
06:05:27 <kallisti> instead of "machine running Windows" or whatever it's supposed to mean nowadays.
06:05:52 <kallisti> the whole "PC vs. Mac" thing...
06:05:57 <kallisti> but Macs are PCs!
06:06:16 <kmc> "IBM PC" is a computer platform
06:06:25 <shachaf> "It's not that I'm incapable of understanding what you meant, I just choose to misinterpret regardless of however it derails the conversation because it makes me feel better about something"
06:06:30 <kmc> meaning it's a set of specifications for a processor and how that processor interacts with peripherals
06:06:44 <kmc> stuff like, here is your bus, here is your BIOS and the functions it provides, here's how you boot
06:07:02 <kmc> "PC" today would refer to a large and evolving collection of such specifications
06:07:02 <kallisti> I see. I must have arrived late to the party.
06:07:17 <kmc> shachaf: is that a quote from somewhere?
06:07:36 <shachaf> No.
06:07:47 <itidus21> kallisti: The term WC has been suggested for a computer running Windows.
06:08:08 * kallisti pretends to be an ignorant American. "I DON'T GET IT"
06:08:10 <kmc> i'm not sure to what extent "Macs are PCs" under that view
06:08:24 <kmc> EFI is part of the new world order for PCs, isn't it
06:08:45 <kmc> you can boot an EFI-aware Windows or Linux system on a Mac without Boot Camp, can't you?
06:08:49 <itidus21> perhaps a PC is a machine which is not a Mac
06:09:01 <kmc> itidus21: perhaps bonghits will fix your dichotomy
06:09:08 <shachaf> EFI isn't an Apple thing.
06:09:15 <kmc> i know
06:09:18 <shachaf> Well, maybe Apple is the only one who uses it.
06:09:20 <kmc> but Macs use it, no?
06:09:33 <kmc> i thought other consumer hardware was EFI capable by now
06:09:57 <madbr> does EFI still boot in 16 bit mode?
06:10:18 <kallisti> I thought a PC was a computer designed for and in the price range of an individual person.
06:10:25 <kallisti> I think kmc has taken a more specific definition the one I use.
06:10:26 <pikhq> kmc: Rather a lot of it is by now.
06:10:36 <kmc> kallisti: I took the definition used by the preceeding discussion
06:10:37 <pikhq> madbr: Technically, all x86 CPUs do.
06:10:40 <kmc> where "PC" was short for "IBM PC"
06:10:58 <madbr> yeah
06:11:02 <pikhq> madbr: EFI firmware just switches to protected or long mode early in the boot sequence, before control is handed to the OS.
06:11:09 <itidus21> bastard
06:11:27 <madbr> was just thinking they were trying to find a way to avoid the 16 bit part in the boot
06:11:47 <madbr> to eventually make 16bit support not necessary at all and eventually take it out of CPUs
06:12:01 <madbr> jenga principle
06:12:06 <pikhq> It'll take the death of the BIOS first.
06:12:38 <pikhq> And then a new generation of CPUs which are incompatible with EFI firmwares that start in 16-bit mode.
06:14:09 <pikhq> Even then, you'd probably want those CPUs to be long mode only, so you don't have to think about virtual 8086 mode.
06:14:51 * kallisti goes back to his corner.
06:17:26 <madbr> 32bit mode on x86 still probably has a long life left tho
06:18:10 <pikhq> Yup.
06:18:36 <pikhq> And so we're stuck with a single platform with ludicrous floats.
06:18:45 <madbr> floats?
06:18:55 <pikhq> x87.
06:19:11 <madbr> isn't it slowly being replaced by SSE?
06:19:49 <madbr> not that it really matters, afaik for most cpus, x87 and SSE use the same ALUs anyways
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06:20:20 <kmc> but x87 supports the wacky 80-bit float format
06:20:30 <kmc> if x87 went away you could drop the hardware to support that
06:20:34 <kmc> not sure if that really matters
06:20:34 <madbr> for intermediate computation only
06:20:42 <kmc> you can also load/store them
06:20:52 <kmc> but anyway, you still need that hardware to produce the correct results
06:20:53 <pikhq_> madbr: The 32-bit x86 ABIs don't generally *permit* you to ignore x87.
06:21:06 <pikhq_> Floats are passed on the x87 register-stack.
06:21:15 <madbr> kmc: yeah but that's actually rare
06:21:27 <pikhq_> kmc: x87 is technically available on x86_64 as well.
06:21:30 <madbr> afaik loading/storing 80bit floats is really slow
06:21:46 <madbr> thought it was deprecated on x86-64
06:21:50 <kmc> madbr: but the CPU still needs to support it
06:21:50 <pikhq_> madbr: Then passing floats is really slow?
06:21:58 <pikhq_> madbr: You pass floats on the x87 register stack.
06:22:04 <pikhq_> Which only knows about 80-bit floats.
06:22:12 <madbr> pikhq: no I mean loading and saving them to ram
06:22:46 <kmc> well you can set a FPU control bit to make them act like 64-bit floats, iirc
06:22:59 <madbr> kmc: which almost works
06:23:08 <madbr> (exponent range isn't affected)
06:23:14 <madbr> it's not actually faster though
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06:23:20 <pikhq_> x87's weird ass floats at least gives you a funny property...
06:23:28 <madbr> except for / and sqrt
06:23:45 <pikhq_> x86 has, in effect, 64-bit integers, and has even when it was a 16-bit platform.
06:23:48 <pikhq_> :P
06:24:07 <madbr> eh
06:24:30 <kmc> hehe
06:25:20 <Sgeo_> x = x;
06:25:29 <Sgeo_> Did someone make an esolang where that would be a useful thing to do?
06:25:34 <Sgeo_> It vaguely sounds familiar
06:25:36 <kmc> yes, it's called C++
06:25:51 <Sgeo_> ?!?!
06:26:35 <kmc> i mean, if you have some bad / weird design
06:26:48 <kmc> then operator= might have some useful side effect
06:26:56 <kmc> at least a performance optimization
06:27:06 <shachaf> mov eax, eax
06:27:12 <madbr> performance optimization?
06:27:28 <madbr> like what? :D
06:27:57 <kmc> like rebalancing a data structure
06:28:37 <madbr> how would you optimize that with 80 bit floats? :D
06:29:00 <kmc> i was responding to Sgeo_
06:29:06 <kmc> who i do not believe was talking about 80 bit floats
06:29:36 <pikhq_> Sgeo was talking about "x = x;", which could potentially have strange semantics in C++.
06:29:41 <madbr> oh
06:29:46 <kallisti> x += 2 an lvalue in C?
06:29:48 <madbr> I thought it was an emoticon
06:29:49 <kallisti> like it is in perl?
06:30:12 <madbr> (x += 2) returns x+2 I think
06:30:18 <kallisti> yes
06:30:19 <madbr> that's an rvalue
06:30:21 <kallisti> but is it an lvalue?
06:30:33 <pikhq_> rvalue *as opposed to lvalue*, presumably.
06:30:46 <madbr> unless I guess it could return the address of x
06:30:52 <madbr> I should test it
06:31:55 <kallisti> in perl it's perfectly reasonable to do ($hash{x} = $x = $arr[2] += 1) %= 256;
06:32:08 <madbr> yeah but that's perl
06:32:16 <kmc> "perfectly reasonable"
06:32:53 <madbr> which has some operators that can change behavior depending on if there's 0, 1 or 2+ values in an array
06:32:59 <madbr> If I'm not mistaken
06:33:09 <madbr> barely remember it tho
06:33:12 <kallisti> not that I've seen.
06:33:29 <kallisti> perl is far more consistent than it's given credit.
06:43:18 <kallisti> madbr: oh, I guess you're talking about subroutines arguments, since they're stored in an array.
06:43:29 <kallisti> that's the same thing as having default values in other languages.
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06:50:57 <Taneb> Hello
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07:03:56 <pikhq_> The fuck. Guess when Egyptian (well, its evolved descendant) died?
07:05:01 <pikhq_> The 17th friggin' century.
07:09:16 <Sgeo_> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57471178-83/yahoos-password-leak-what-you-need-to-know-faq/
07:09:30 <Sgeo_> They're vulnerable to SQL injection, why expect them to store passwords sanely?
07:17:40 <fizzie> Assuming volatile int x that coincides with some memory-mapped device, 'x = x;' can be a reasonable thing to do.
07:18:08 <fizzie> Can't exactly think of an example offhand, but anyway.
07:18:53 <pikhq_> Could also be handy to pad your executable. :P
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07:22:35 <fizzie> And to nitpick a little, 'x += 2' returns new value of x, not necessarily the same as 'x+2'. Consider e.g. unsigned char x = 255, in which case (assuming regular sizes) x+2 is likely to be 257 thanks to the default integer promotions, while x+=2 is likely to return 1.
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08:08:05 <Sgeo_> " The -- switch can be used to mark the end of switches; it may be needed if path is an unusual value such as -safe."
08:08:11 <Sgeo_> Well, I feel safe now (no I don't)
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08:46:15 <mroman> Sgeo_: General rule when doing stuff like foo * is to use foo -- * ;)
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13:17:11 <itidus21> .
13:17:12 <itidus21> ..
13:17:14 <itidus21> ...
13:17:16 <itidus21> ....
13:17:20 <itidus21> .....
13:17:34 <fizzie> Insert requisite combo breaker.
13:17:52 <itidus21> success
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13:41:24 <fizzie> From elsewhere, though I think I recall an older similar thing few years back: http://www.legoturingmachine.org/ (it's
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13:41:38 <fizzie> I forget what the bit in parens was trying to be.
13:41:39 <fizzie> Anyway.
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14:28:51 <aod> hi
14:30:38 <Sgeo> Hi
14:30:43 <Sgeo> `welcome aod
14:30:45 <nortti> hi
14:30:53 <HackEgo> aod: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:31:06 <fizzie> Good going.
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15:01:55 <mroman> `welcome HackEgo
15:01:58 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:02:22 <mroman> He needed that .
15:02:26 <fizzie> At least HackEgo didn't run away screaming.
15:02:33 <fizzie> Unlike most other welcomees.
15:04:50 -!- ernesto1 has left.
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15:07:26 <Taneb> Hello!
15:07:30 <Taneb> I've got bad news
15:09:01 <mroman> NOn your plane were snakes?
15:09:20 <Taneb> Why the 0x7Fs?
15:09:30 <Taneb> Isn't that DEL?
15:09:39 <Taneb> Have you incorrectly configured your terminal?
15:09:51 <Taneb> Am I seeing things?
15:10:17 <mroman> Hm?
15:10:35 <mroman> You should see NOn your plane were snakes?
15:10:45 <Taneb> Anyway, the bad news is that I'm going to start volunteering in a charity shop
15:11:01 <nortti> why is that bad news?
15:11:07 <mroman> But my internet connection is very slow at the moment so I don't see what I type
15:11:13 <Taneb> nortti, I dunno
15:11:34 <mroman> He's not getting paid for it?
15:13:24 <Taneb> mroman, http://imgur.com/wAJFC
15:15:13 <mroman> Do you see them now?
15:16:30 <Taneb> Yes
15:16:39 <Taneb> No
15:16:48 <Taneb> You mean in that line you just said?
15:16:49 <Taneb> No
15:16:57 <mroman> Taneb: Yes @17:15
15:17:08 <Taneb> They aren't there :)
15:18:26 <nortti> what. what the fuck it that what happens when you press ^A c ^[ on screen?
15:19:37 <nortti> I mean ^A^[
15:20:14 <fizzie> Isn't that the copy mode by default?
15:20:27 <fizzie> Screen's built-in copy-paste thing.
15:20:43 <nortti> oh
15:20:48 <fizzie> Select stuff by... several keys, and then paste with ^A^].
15:21:28 <fizzie> hjkl (or cursor keys) move, enter starts/ends selection, and there's other less useful keys too.
15:21:32 <fizzie> (Aways now.)
15:25:03 <nortti> getting message: Welcome to hacker's treasure zoo - Column 13 Line 64(+1000) (160,64)
15:25:15 <nortti> was just kinda strange
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16:09:38 <quintopia> hi
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16:25:44 <Taneb> Hello
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16:32:11 <mroman> Taneb: You still haven't told us why you think that your news is bad.
16:32:27 <Taneb> BECAUSE I WILL LOSE MY SATURDAYS
16:32:56 <mroman> Jeez. No need to scream.
16:33:09 <Taneb> I'M NOT SCREAMING
16:33:15 <Taneb> NOW I'M SCREAMING
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16:55:19 <Sgeo> Got a spam with the subject "i'm dying"
16:55:26 <Sgeo> Apparently referring to the laptop battery
16:55:38 <nortti> :P
16:56:15 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/spam
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17:14:26 <Taneb> zzo38, will there be a new version of prelude-generalize to reflect the new version of comonad?
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17:17:48 <zzo38> Taneb: Perhaps I may do that one day but then I should fix my other packages using comonads too
17:17:55 <Taneb> :)
17:18:11 <nortti> how does a comonad work?
17:18:44 <Taneb> duplicate :: w a -> w (w a); extend :: (w a -> b) -> w a -> w b; extract :: w a -> a
17:19:17 <Taneb> This lets you manipulate context without adding to it
17:19:22 <Taneb> *Use context
17:20:06 <zzo38> I really think monads should be defined in a similar way class Functor m => Monad m where { join :: m (m a) -> m a; bind :: (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b; return :: a -> m a; }
17:20:18 <Taneb> zzo38, that's tangentical
17:20:21 <Taneb> Consider the ((,) e) comonad
17:20:55 <Taneb> This lets you do extend (\(a,b) -> a + b) :: Num a => (e, a) -> (e, a)
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17:21:16 <Taneb> *Num a => (a, a) -> (a, a)
17:21:36 <Taneb> This lets you use the environment element of the tuple while keeping it the same
17:22:09 <Taneb> Another example:
17:22:23 <zzo38> Yes I do understand that it is an environment comonad, I like that.
17:22:35 <Taneb> Imagine an image data type data Img a = Img (Array (Int, Int) a) (Int, Int)
17:22:43 <Taneb> So it has the image, and a coordinate
17:22:59 <Taneb> extract would get the pixel at the specified coordinate
17:23:13 <Taneb> (the pixel is an arbitrary type, of course)
17:23:49 <zzo38> And I guess extend would do convolution filters
17:24:02 <Taneb> If you define a function that gives the pixel above the specified pixel, call it f, extend f shifts the image down a pixel
17:24:36 * edwardk looks up at the comonad chatter
17:24:37 <Taneb> Blurs aren't that hard to do, etc, etc
17:24:53 <Taneb> edwardk, was it you who showed me this example
17:25:03 <edwardk> yeah
17:25:03 <zzo38> Blur, shift one down, these are both kinds of convolution filters
17:25:21 <Taneb> For recolouring, you can just use fmap
17:25:26 <edwardk> its one of my favorite comonad examples
17:25:35 <Taneb> It's a good example
17:25:50 <edwardk> cellular automata are another good one
17:26:03 <edwardk> because you can run a game of life in that image comonad as well for instance
17:26:08 <copumpkin> how about faster convolutions?
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17:26:31 <edwardk> faster how?
17:26:39 <Phantom__Hoover> Less slow.
17:26:42 <copumpkin> I want to use comonads to derive the convolution theorem
17:26:44 <copumpkin> >_>
17:26:53 <zzo38> What convolution theorem?
17:27:02 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convolution_theorem
17:28:27 <Taneb> The NonEmpty comonad lets you use the remainder of the list as context, which is useful sometimes
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17:29:04 <zzo38> duplicate for non-empty list makes the part of the list starting from each element
17:29:11 <zzo38> So it will do that
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17:30:18 <Taneb> duplicate copies the context to the content, sort of?
17:30:42 <Taneb> While keeping the content
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17:32:19 <zzo38> The purpose of duplicate differs by the comonads and the purpose of join differs by the monads, what they mean for each one is differ as long as the laws are followed. Therefore it also makes a Kleisli category or coKleisli category and can use bind and extend to mean something too. Or you can do it the other way around also work.
17:33:07 <Taneb> I've got an unrelated question
17:33:22 <Taneb> How are Arrows generalizations of Monads?
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17:34:22 <zzo38> I do not understand that either. To me it seem, Arrow is a category, having a functor from (->), and is a tensor category, and fanout, and possibly some additional laws.
17:36:19 <Taneb> Arrows are a specialisation of Categories, I get that
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17:43:24 <zzo38> edwardk: Do you know anything about Penrose graphical notation? And about what categories are possible to draw in this way (with restrictions, such as you may be unable to cross lines and whatever depending on what category)
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17:51:07 <edwardk> back
17:51:26 <edwardk> re: penrose diagrams I'm more familiar with the trace diagram special case
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17:53:19 <edwardk> and you can probably use some form of tensor diagrams in monoidal categories, which would make sense given the existence of string diagrams
17:53:32 <edwardk> zzo38: are you familiar with string diagrams?
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18:15:33 <zzo38> No
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18:30:56 <edwardk> zzo38: they are what you are looking for in category theory as an equivalent
18:31:18 <edwardk> there is a video series by the catsters on them
18:31:18 <edwardk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USYRDDZ9yEc
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18:31:46 <edwardk> they have ~5 videos, and the recent hinze paper on kan extensions uses them a lot, so you may get some intuition on them from that
18:32:11 <edwardk> they are closer to trace diagrams, which are a special case of the penrose notation
18:41:35 <Vorpal> I wonder what these dmesg lines spamming my dmesg is about:
18:41:36 <Vorpal> [203653.110416] cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: This device cannot do calls on its own. It is not a modem.
18:41:36 <Vorpal> [203653.110589] cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: ttyACM0: USB ACM device
18:42:13 <Vorpal> mostly from yesterday
18:42:25 <Vorpal> I only think I used an USB mouse and an USB memory then?
18:42:36 <kmc> hacked by chinese
18:43:16 <Vorpal> oh actually I might have connected my phone yesterday
18:43:22 <Vorpal> that would make some sense
18:44:01 <Vorpal> bbl
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19:01:43 <fizzie> I like the error message.
19:01:53 <fizzie> It's somehow whimsical.
19:03:24 <fizzie> "I'm a doctor, not an escalator", or whatever.
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19:11:38 <Taneb> Hello
19:11:54 <oerjan> evening
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19:24:11 <fizzie> Night!
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19:29:28 <Taneb> @ping
19:29:28 <lambdabot> pong
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19:31:36 <zzo38> Do you know what NES mappers map the name tables as well as additional RAM both to $6000..$7FFF CPU memory?
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20:36:07 <ion> IT’S A SHARK! http://youtu.be/ZcuYjDR2tSg?t=40s
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20:41:00 <Phantom__Hoover> A bigass shark, at that!
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21:49:14 <kallisti> !bf +[#>+]
21:49:16 <EgoBot> No output.
21:49:25 <kallisti> no debug command. shame.
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22:12:44 <Taneb> Hello
22:13:12 <Taneb> @ping
22:13:13 <lambdabot> pong
22:13:28 <Taneb> Goodbye
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22:16:59 * oerjan is having a bout of simon tatham's Loopy puzzle
22:17:26 <oerjan> they require a fascinating variety of little tricks
22:17:45 <oerjan> and the occasional deeper logic
22:18:27 <oerjan> and which tricks are useful changes subtly with the chosen grid shape
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23:02:05 <oerjan> except when you have to restart...
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23:21:39 <zzo38> edwardk: Why did you make a Plus that requires Functor as well even though it can be used without?
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23:24:58 <zzo38> If you make a type for F-algebra newtype Algebra f x = Algebra (f x -> x) then you can make a monoid of coKleisli endomorphisms
23:31:34 <zzo38> You get CodensityAsk ((->) x) to be like Either x including a MonadPlus instance if x is a monoid
23:32:28 <zzo38> Free (Const x) is also like Either x and it is similar by ((->) x) like Algebra (Const x) too.
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2012-07-14
00:16:34 <ais523> hi EgoBot
00:16:34 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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00:50:43 <Sgeo> ais523, do you remember what day we proved that theorem?
00:58:02 <oerjan> THEOREMS? WHERE?
01:00:03 <Vorpal> which theorem?
01:04:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, Vorpal, the one about bounded Game of Life
01:05:52 <oerjan> OK
01:07:14 <Sgeo> That any GoL pattern with at least a 5x5 hole on a bounded GoL grid has at least one Garden of Eden predecessor
01:09:51 <oerjan> ...or is itself a GoE, presumably
01:10:02 <Vorpal> Sgeo, missed that one
01:10:22 <Vorpal> Sgeo, how did you prove it
01:10:32 <Vorpal> and that is kind of interesting
01:10:39 <oerjan> or wait was that in the arbitrary far ancestor sense...
01:10:55 <Sgeo> arbitrary far ancestor sense
01:11:18 <Vorpal> isn't there a wiki for GoL btw? Did you post this (and the proof) there?
01:11:30 <Sgeo> I don't think I posted it
01:11:35 <Vorpal> do that then
01:11:37 <Sgeo> It should be in the logs somewhere
01:11:41 * oerjan vaguely recalls it now
01:11:57 <Vorpal> recalls what=?
01:11:59 <Vorpal> s/=//
01:12:23 <oerjan> basically, because of the hole you know that its immediate descendant has at least two possible parents
01:12:43 <Vorpal> yes and?
01:12:53 <oerjan> hm wait no
01:12:59 <Vorpal> also how would you know that
01:12:59 <Sgeo> If the pattern results in a loop, then only one of those patterns is in the loop (I'm a bit shaky on that part)
01:13:28 <oerjan> right that was
01:13:36 <Sgeo> Gregor, what. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1TSND_enUS401US401&sugexp=chrome,mod=10&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Garden+of+Eden%22+site%3Acodu.org
01:14:01 <oerjan> Vorpal: if you have a 5x5 hole, you can modify the center cell without changing the child state
01:14:22 <Vorpal> oh right
01:14:41 <Sgeo> Why is codu a wikipedia mirror
01:14:55 <Vorpal> huh
01:16:20 <Sgeo> So how do I download all of Gregor's stuff
01:16:29 <Sgeo> Erm, the ... bluh
01:18:21 <Gregor> Sgeo: It has a 5-clicks-to-Jesus game.
01:18:35 <Sgeo> Ah
01:18:36 <Gregor> (Assuming it still works)
01:19:49 <Sgeo> I think I found it
01:21:59 <Sgeo> http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/11.06.26
01:22:34 <oerjan> Sgeo: you do know about `pastelogs , right?
01:26:54 <Gregor> Sgeo: What the boink are you talking about...
01:27:33 <Sgeo> As in, I wanted to download all the logs to grep them
01:31:55 <kallisti> oh, right... so
01:32:22 <kallisti> I just got why fourier transforms work on finite non-periodic signals.
01:32:56 <kallisti> since any signal is periodic if the period is infinity. :P
01:33:39 <Sgeo> Argh I want to redo my proof
01:34:10 <kallisti> Sgeo: rsync?
01:34:48 <kallisti> try: rsync -a rsync://codu.org/logs/_esoteric esologs
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01:43:42 <Sgeo> I think I'm scared of randomness
01:43:57 <Sgeo> I just put in a seed for a Minecraft world
01:44:02 <Sgeo> Not because of shared exploration
01:44:12 <Sgeo> But just... so I could reproduce another copy of the world in theory
01:48:24 <Vorpal> Sgeo, shared exploration? You mean multiplayer
01:48:43 <Vorpal> anyway you can easily dump the seed with F3 after you generated the world
01:49:06 <Sgeo> Not what I said. I mean, ala the Reddit world
01:49:09 <Sgeo> Is what I meant
01:49:09 <Vorpal> (unless it is multiplayer, in which case you need to do a bit more)
01:49:16 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I have no idea what that is
01:49:23 <Sgeo> One seed that multiple people use and explore
01:50:00 <Vorpal> Sgeo, I find that seeds are not reliable for stuff generated after worldgen (which happens with some mods, like buildcraft, and who would play vanilla these days?)
01:57:28 <Sgeo> It's night and I don't have a solid house
01:57:34 <Sgeo> Partial walls :/
01:57:43 <Sgeo> Did make a torch at least from charcoal
01:59:30 <Sgeo> Grah it's boring waiting for hopefully nothing to happen
02:05:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo, which mods do you play with?
02:05:19 <Sgeo> None right now
02:05:24 <Vorpal> Sgeo, why?
02:05:36 <Vorpal> I mean vanilla gets boring after a month or so
02:05:49 <Sgeo> I haven't played that much vanilla really
02:06:02 <Vorpal> I wouldn't play without RP2, IC2, EE2, BC3, and a bunch of other mods
02:06:20 <Vorpal> logistics pipes is another really really good one
02:06:41 <Sgeo> As in, there was maybe one world that I tried to play survival
02:06:44 <Sgeo> Not for very long
02:06:52 <Vorpal> oh?
02:07:09 <Sgeo> Played on servers a bit
02:07:12 <Vorpal> survival is fine with me, but the combat in minecraft is so utterly boring
02:07:14 <Sgeo> And that's pretty much it
02:07:24 <Vorpal> yeah don't think I would play on a vanilla server again
02:20:34 <Sgeo> Hmm, I haven't been doing much about hunger
02:37:36 <Phantom__Hoover> If the mob spawning algorithms are still idiotic you probably want to start farming early on.
02:39:39 <Sgeo> Next goal: Make a secure path between mining site and house
02:40:00 <Phantom__Hoover> You didn't build the house on top of the mining site?
02:40:07 <Sgeo> No
02:40:22 <Phantom__Hoover> (Have I mentioned how mining should totally work, it's way better than the way Minecraft does it.)
02:40:34 <Sgeo> Can I die of hunger on Normal?
02:44:27 <Phantom__Hoover> No, but it takes you down to like half a heart.
02:44:32 <Phantom__Hoover> There is a wiki for this sort of thing.
02:45:04 <Sgeo> Wish I could both browse wiki and let time pass
02:45:07 <Sgeo> Waiting for day is boring
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06:31:15 <zzo38> I wrote a program to test VRC7 audio.
06:31:21 <zzo38> For NES/Famicom
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08:12:13 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/fFBY?haskell in which kallisti creates yet another brainfuck compiler.
08:12:21 <kallisti> in Haskell. with the standard optimizations.
08:12:52 <pikhq> Mine's better.
08:13:10 <pikhq> :)
08:14:01 <kallisti> pikhq: IIRC you made an assembly-like intermediate language right?
08:14:11 <pikhq> No.
08:14:23 <pikhq> https://github.com/pikhq/haskell-bfc/blob/master/main.hs
08:15:00 <kallisti> what's the int for on Loop?
08:15:30 <kallisti> our parse functions are similar. yours is smaller though
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08:16:26 <kallisti> but mine goes ahead and groups consecutive commands
08:16:34 <Taneb> Hello
08:16:47 <pikhq> Which cell it's testing on, relative to the current pointer. I fold pointer movements into the instructions as much as possible.
08:17:25 <kallisti> wait I thought the pointer could shift.
08:17:50 <kallisti> !bf +[>+]
08:17:51 <EgoBot> No output.
08:18:57 <shachaf> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
08:18:57 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | |
08:18:57 <myndzi> /< /'\ >\ /< >\ /| |\ /`\ /'\
08:19:05 <shachaf> thmyndzi
08:20:49 <pikhq> kallisti: Yup. That gets compiled to [Add 0 1, Loop 0 [Add 1 1, Move 1]]
08:22:01 <pikhq> kallisti: If the pointer movements at the end of a loop don't net to no movement, then the pending moves get emitted right there.
08:23:21 <kallisti> oh, so "Loop 0" just means the normal [ behavior
08:23:31 <pikhq> Yes.
08:24:12 <kallisti> I'll probably end up translating this AST into a more complex mini-language.
08:24:24 <kallisti> with things like destructive add, clear, copy, and multiply.
08:24:33 <kallisti> though I guess clear would be "set 0"
08:24:43 <pikhq> Yeah, that'll give you rather a bit more power.
08:25:29 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/HsBfC/blob/71384aad6744927f165dfffe10cb5a5aa1a965e3/hsbfc.hs <- mine ;)
08:25:52 <mroman> groups instructions but lacks support for even simple optmization like +- -> Nop
08:26:31 <kallisti> my parser could probably be simplified.
08:29:04 <mroman> http://codepad.org/H1NEsAor <- parsec
08:29:26 <kallisti> pikhq: we have a lot of similar code though.
08:29:50 <pikhq> Well, yeah. A decent chunk of it is just doing it in the most natural way in Haskell.
08:30:57 <pikhq> My code generator, admittedly, is Weird.
08:31:24 <kallisti> mine is stupid
08:31:39 <kallisti> "lololol add dynamic resize condition after each >"
08:31:54 <pikhq> BF -> State (Int, Syscalls) (IO ()) -- :)
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11:31:07 * itidus21 gets agitated while contemplating subpixels when he realizes they're not quite as simple as he anticipated
11:35:16 <itidus21> http://pastebin.com/Mz73HbVN
11:38:33 <itidus21> my biggest surprise when i mapped this out is that if i say, pixel is lit if any subpixels touched then the shape will vary between 3 and 4 pixels width
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12:14:44 <itidus21> (to answer my little query) i guess the solution is to simply use subpixels to determine the top left corner to pass to a bitmap drawing op
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12:30:13 <Taneb> Hello
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13:35:09 <nortti> hi marx
13:35:20 <marx> hi nortti
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13:53:30 <nortti> ogrom: who are you and what takes you here?
13:54:06 <ogrom> sometimes i join here
13:54:12 <ogrom> i like the name of the room
13:55:01 <nortti> and then you just idle here?
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14:11:17 * claque applauds.
14:11:40 <nortti> why?
14:11:58 <claque> I don't ask.
14:12:00 * claque cheers.
14:13:29 * claque laughs.
14:13:32 * claque gasps!
14:13:34 * claque cheers again!
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14:45:26 <Taneb> ...
14:45:29 <Taneb> How odd
14:58:50 <itidus21> <flubber>>+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]
14:58:51 <itidus21> <.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.</flubber>
14:59:32 <itidus21> Beer commercials usually show big men, manly men, doing manly things: "You've just killed a small animal. It's time for a light beer." Why not have a realistic beer commercial, with a realistic thing about beer, where someone goes, "It's five o'clock in the morning. You've just pissed on a dumpster. It's Miller time."
15:00:19 <Taneb> Because, itidus21, the people who make adverts actually know how to make adverts
15:00:39 <itidus21> The Second Amendment! It says you have the right to bear arms, or the right to arm bears, whatever the hell you want to do!
15:00:57 <Taneb> Can I have some bear arms?
15:01:23 <itidus21> There was an old, crazy dude who used to live a long time ago. His name was Lord Buckley. And he said, a long time ago, he said, "People--they're kinda like flowers, and it's been a privilege walking in your garden." My love goes with you.
15:01:46 <kmc> who is itidus21 quoting
15:02:36 <kmc> "Cambridge police: Man on Harley bites, robs man"
15:03:01 <Taneb> "Late Post 'Not That Late'"
15:06:10 <itidus21> Why do they call it rush hour when nothing moves?
15:06:43 <Taneb> It's actually a corruption of "rust hour2
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15:12:24 <itidus21> I feel like I'm a big human snot.
15:12:29 <nortti> ok
15:12:33 <nortti> why?
15:12:45 <itidus21> oh.. everything i just said was quotations from the same person :-s
15:13:00 <nortti> ok
15:13:44 <Taneb> Proof that no Comonad may be a MonadPlus:
15:14:19 <Taneb> Consider the function extract :: Comonad w => w a -> a; and the function mzero :: MonadPlus m => m a
15:14:38 <Taneb> And the type defined as data Void
15:14:47 <Taneb> Void has no constructors and cannot exist
15:15:32 <Taneb> If there is a type with both a comonad and monadPlus instance, extract mzero has the the type forall a. a, hence Void
15:16:09 <Taneb> As extract mzero is a Void and there are no Voids, there are no types which are both Comonads and MonadPluses
15:16:10 <Taneb> QED
15:16:29 <Taneb> (you can replace MonadPlus and mzero with Alternative and empty)
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15:17:02 <Taneb> (this proof ignores the existence of _|_)
15:18:21 <Taneb> In short, Comonad m, MonadPlus m => Void
15:18:24 -!- augur__ has joined.
15:18:36 <kmc> itidus21 who
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17:22:18 <itidus21> robin williams :P
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17:47:13 <kmc> ah yeah
17:47:58 <kmc> i've only heard a little bit of his standup but i hear it's pretty good
17:48:29 <kmc> it's shockingly raunchy if you're only familiar with his roles in family movies ;P
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18:41:45 <nortti> marx: is your first name karl?
18:42:34 <ogrom> hi nortti
18:42:38 <ogrom> ei ole
18:43:38 <nortti> jaa. nääkin oot suomalainen vai?
18:44:10 <olsner> yhdeksän
18:44:32 <nortti> se on numero. mitä siitä
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18:45:21 <olsner> airo on meidän?
18:45:38 <nortti> mitä hittoa?
18:45:59 <olsner> ei siis hai
18:46:21 <nortti> jaa
18:46:31 <nortti> ogrom: you are estonian?
18:46:45 <oerjan> Eesti vabarik
18:47:23 <oerjan> *ii
18:48:26 <ogrom> nortti: virosta joo
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18:49:04 <Taneb> Hello
18:49:05 <ogrom> m en kattonu vlill
18:49:11 <ogrom> hi Taneb
18:50:00 <olsner> google translate didn't like nääkin, but suggested näin instead
18:50:26 <oerjan> it doesn't like kattonu either
18:51:09 <olsner> I do not kattonu between
18:51:19 <nortti> nääkin=sinäkin
18:51:33 <nortti> kattonu=katsonut
18:51:56 <fizzie> Oh-so-dialectal.
18:52:31 <oerjan> <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/fFBY?haskell in which kallisti creates yet another brainfuck compiler.
18:52:46 <fizzie> Or colloquial or whatever.
18:53:05 <oerjan> kallisti: to simplify your data type, i suggest using a concept called "negative numbers"
18:53:20 <kallisti> oerjan: I can do that with Inc and Dec, however
18:53:30 <kallisti> ShiftR and ShiftL should have different code output
18:53:32 <oerjan> kallisti: um my point is you don't need both :P
18:53:34 <kallisti> which I could check for
18:53:37 <kallisti> but I'm lazy.
18:53:48 <kallisti> oerjan: yes and that is what I was saying as well
18:54:02 <kallisti> "I can do that" meaning "I can combine them into one constructor"
18:54:12 <nortti> hmm. underload compiler would be interesting project. it is even possible?
18:54:38 <oerjan> nortti: well if a _befunge_ compiler is possible...
18:54:44 <kallisti> anybody doing ICFP this year?
18:55:14 <Taneb> I only just heard about it :(
18:55:32 <oerjan> the need to keep both execution and string representations might complicate things...
18:56:36 <fizzie> oerjan: You just de-transform from the machine code back to whatever the string was likely to have been when necessary.
18:56:40 <fizzie> Sounds very practical.
18:56:55 <oerjan> fizzie: and also very optimization-breaking
18:57:51 <oerjan> i'm sure ais523 has considered it, and i think someone else may have too (elliott?)
18:58:02 <oerjan> neither of which is present
18:58:19 <nortti> hmm. writing an os with underload...
18:58:30 <oerjan> nortti: it still has no input.
18:59:04 <oerjan> nortti: you probably want ais523's underlambda instead, once he finishes it. (note: ais523 is not too good at finishing esolangs.)
18:59:13 <oerjan> (neither am i, come to think of it.)
18:59:29 <olsner> me neither
18:59:42 <Taneb> I'm... not very good either
18:59:51 <nortti> oerjan: but what about subroutine call to os that returns input?
19:00:20 <nortti> also what kind of language is underlambda?
19:00:21 <oerjan> nortti: ...it doesn't have that either, although i guess you can assume they're put on the stack
19:00:35 <ogrom> ollaan hirveit murremiehii
19:00:45 <nortti> joo. mut miks?
19:01:01 <ogrom> ihan kiusaks vaan
19:01:16 <oerjan> nortti: underlambda is a language supposedly a bit like underload, but more practical and with the stated intention of being easy to compile both to and from
19:01:30 <nortti> ok. that sounds good
19:01:49 <oerjan> i think it has a core part, which can bootstrap the rest
19:02:32 <nortti> is there a page for it?
19:02:53 <oerjan> but all this is very vague. the only other thing i remember is that it does _not_ confuse strings and program, in order to allow optimizations.
19:03:32 <oerjan> oh and it is constantly in flux whenever ais523 _does_ work on it. no page.
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19:04:37 <oerjan> btw underload itself was a scaled down version of a monster called overload, which also has no page.
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19:05:12 <nortti> I know
19:05:31 <olsner> I didn't know
19:05:38 <nortti> does anyone know what it was like?
19:05:46 <oerjan> ais523 might vaguely recall :P
19:06:04 <oerjan> iirc it had the kitchen sink included
19:06:58 <nortti> so it was emacs of esolangs?
19:07:17 <oerjan> nortti: well maybe. funge98 already is that...
19:07:44 <oerjan> the problem with adding input to underload is that there is no similarly elegant way to output...
19:07:51 <oerjan> er
19:07:59 <oerjan> *to how output is done
19:08:06 <nortti> true
19:09:40 <oerjan> and as unlambda shows, if you _don't_ base it on some kind of numeric/binary representation you end up doing a lot of single character matches...
19:09:54 <oerjan> or you could go full regexps i guess
19:11:02 <nortti> how does underload handle input?
19:11:40 <Taneb> It doesn't, nortti
19:11:57 <nortti> *unlambda
19:13:21 <Taneb> @ reads a character, ?x pattern-matches
19:13:53 <nortti> ok
19:16:36 <nortti> maybe something like I reads a char, ? returns (~) if two topmost elements are same and () if not
19:17:32 <Taneb> I was thinking of an input extension for ZOMBIE
19:19:06 <nortti> or ? can be =
19:25:58 <oerjan> nortti: and that will _still_ be horribly inefficient for anything doing significant string lookup or parsing.
19:26:37 <oerjan> (because you have to match every possible character in sequence.)
19:28:11 <nortti> what about returning is in binary with (~) being 1 and () being 0 ?
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19:28:47 <oerjan> my unlambda-in-unlambda interpreter had to contain a full character table in order to parse ?x functions (there is no way to construct ?x from the character x read)
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19:30:18 <oerjan> nortti: well yes. but now there is suddenly no visual correspondence between an input and something which handles it, unlike for output.
19:30:52 <nortti> fuck it. there is no input in uderload. I'll code my os in SSBPL
19:31:49 <oerjan> nortti: btw check out the rule 110 underload example for my encoding of bits as single : and ^ characters.
19:33:37 <oerjan> i thought that was fitting for a cellular automaton, and i only found two plausible ways of doing it (the other would use : and a)
19:34:42 <oerjan> (i never worked out the other one, but i see no reason why it shouldn't work)
19:41:26 <oerjan> <Taneb> (this proof ignores the existence of _|_)
19:41:43 <oerjan> i feel like doing that and still allowing Void is the part where you are cheating...
19:41:50 <Taneb> Yes
19:43:05 <oerjan> admittedly you just need one type which cannot have its value constructed from your mzero and m
19:43:16 <oerjan> *one of its values
19:43:44 <oerjan> well and w, i guess
19:44:42 <oerjan> oh and parametricity also gives you that
19:44:51 <Taneb> Parametricity?
19:45:17 <oerjan> you get easily a polymorphic function of type forall a. (Comonad w, MonadPlus m) => a
19:46:28 <oerjan> and parametricity implies that f must satisfy g . f = f for all f, which means you break if you have a type with a function that has no fixpoints
19:46:40 <oerjan> say, not :: Bool -> Bool
19:46:54 <oerjan> (f :: forall a. (Comonad w, MonadPlus m) => a)
19:48:15 <oerjan> (you need to ignore _|_ to have functions without fixpoints, of course)
19:48:54 <oerjan> @free f :: forall a. a
19:48:54 <lambdabot> g f = f
19:49:09 <oerjan> wat
19:49:33 <Taneb> @free f :: forall a. a -> a
19:49:33 <lambdabot> g . f = f . g
19:49:44 <oerjan> i wonder how lambdabot justifies not including . in the first one
19:50:06 <Taneb> Because f is not a category?
19:50:21 <oerjan> oh right
19:50:37 <oerjan> oh and the first f is const applied to the second one
19:50:50 <oerjan> er, reverse
19:51:36 <oerjan> g f = (g . const f') _ = (const f' . g) _ = f
19:52:21 <oerjan> obviously the first g f = f can only hold if g is strict
19:52:28 <oerjan> *required to be
19:54:36 <oerjan> @help free
19:54:37 <lambdabot> free <ident>. Generate theorems for free
19:54:46 <oerjan> @free undefined
19:54:48 <lambdabot> f undefined = undefined
19:56:11 <oerjan> possibly @free assumes system F types (the original system where parametricity was discovered, i think), which don't afaik include anything of type forall a. a
19:56:57 <oerjan> i guess the result is also true for ML
19:57:42 <mroman> @free bar
19:57:43 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "Not in scope: `bar'\n\n"
19:57:50 <mroman> @free const
19:57:52 <lambdabot> f . const x = const (f x) . g
19:58:07 <mroman> hu
19:58:30 <mroman> @free head . tail
19:58:30 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line
19:58:33 <mroman> :(
19:58:39 <mroman> @free head
19:58:41 <lambdabot> f . head = head . $map f
19:59:03 <mroman> @free reverse
19:59:05 <lambdabot> $map f . reverse = reverse . $map f
19:59:32 <mroman> huh.
20:00:07 <mroman> > ($map (+3) . reverse) [1..9]
20:00:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `([a] -> [a]) -> b'
20:00:10 <lambdabot> against inferred t...
20:00:20 <oerjan> mroman: $map is really map
20:00:21 <Taneb> I think what I was trying to get at is that extract mzero must be _|_, so either mzero is _|_, or extract can be _|_ for valid data
20:00:38 <Taneb> Neither is not stupid
20:01:00 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:01:38 <mroman> Why the $ then?
20:01:42 <mroman> It looks wrong with it.
20:01:47 <Taneb> If mzero is _|_ for one type, it must be _|_ for all types, which is useless
20:01:59 <oerjan> mroman: to distinguish it from an introduced variable, i guess
20:02:11 <oerjan> @free Just
20:02:11 <lambdabot> Pattern match failure in do expression at Plugin/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:20-34
20:02:14 <mroman> @free map
20:02:14 <oerjan> bah
20:02:16 <lambdabot> g . h = k . f => $map g . map h = map k . $map f
20:02:28 <mroman> @free map
20:02:30 <lambdabot> g . h = k . f => $map g . map h = map k . $map f
20:02:40 <mroman> @free Just 5
20:02:40 <lambdabot> Pattern match failure in do expression at Plugin/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:20-34
20:02:46 <mroman> @free Nothing
20:02:46 <lambdabot> Pattern match failure in do expression at Plugin/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:20-34
20:03:21 <oerjan> mroman: i think it's trying to say it doesn't know about Maybe
20:03:48 <oerjan> @free []
20:03:49 <lambdabot> Pattern match failure in do expression at Plugin/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:20-34
20:03:51 <oerjan> bah
20:04:17 <oerjan> @free f :: [a]
20:04:18 <lambdabot> $map g f = f
20:04:37 <oerjan> @free f :: Maybe a
20:04:37 <lambdabot> $map_Maybe g f = f
20:04:49 <oerjan> oh it's actually constructors it doesn't know about
20:08:28 <mroman> @free f :: (Int,Float)
20:08:29 <lambdabot> $map_Pair $id $id f = f
20:09:12 <mroman> id $ x = id . id $ x is always true .
20:11:10 <oerjan> Int and Float have no type variables, so only id preserves them
20:28:01 <Vorpal> hm what with the trend of pads and phones going super-high dpi these days, I wonder when the same will happen on desktop and laptop monitors
20:28:56 <Vorpal> I wouldn't mind a 150 dpi desktop or laptop monitor (306 dpi like my phone would probably mean I would need dual GPUs just to render the xfce desktop though XD)
20:29:55 <Taneb> Vorpal, that sounds like the FUTURE
20:30:06 <Vorpal> I certainly hope so
20:30:18 <Taneb> Reminds me of a couple of weeks ago
20:30:34 <fizzie> This laptop does 140dpi.
20:30:38 <fizzie> Approximately.
20:30:40 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway, 192 dpi would be perfect, you could just 2x upscale from 96 dpi (which is pretty common on desktops)
20:30:45 <Vorpal> for bitmap graphics I mean
20:30:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wish I had that
20:31:03 <Taneb> One of my friends has a Macbook thingy, and I'm on Ubuntu, and he was like "Haha, can your laptop do this? Spaces are a Mac only feature"
20:31:11 <Vorpal> anyway what would 306 dpi result in on my 22" desktop monitor (16:10)
20:31:11 <Taneb> I said "How many you got?"
20:31:17 <Vorpal> too tired to do the math
20:31:18 <Taneb> He said "Sixteen"
20:31:23 <nortti> has anyone here ever built heirloom-sh or any simple shell like it staticaly?
20:31:27 <Vorpal> Taneb, spaces?
20:31:40 <Vorpal> is that like... virtual desktops?
20:31:54 <Taneb> It's Ubuntu's Workspaces feature
20:32:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, assume I do not use modern ubuntu
20:32:10 <Taneb> So I configured Ubuntu to have 1000000 workspaces
20:32:11 <Vorpal> this laptop I'm on runs 10.04
20:32:11 <Taneb> Um...
20:32:13 <Vorpal> with gnome 2
20:32:19 <Taneb> They were on that?
20:32:24 <olsner> Vorpal: Spaces on mac is like virtual desktops yes
20:32:25 <Taneb> Press ctrl-alt-right?
20:32:37 <Vorpal> Taneb, ah so the virtual desktops then
20:32:41 <Taneb> Yeah
20:32:57 <Taneb> They were pretty outstanded by my million spaces
20:33:10 <olsner> so what happened when you configured it for a million workspaces? did it work?
20:33:18 <Vorpal> I use 2 virtual desktops
20:33:23 <Vorpal> and I hardly ever actually use the feature
20:33:32 <Taneb> olsner, it worked, they overfilled the switching screen and I probably counldn't use them all
20:33:40 <Taneb> I rarely use more than 1
20:34:02 <Taneb> And I've currently set it to have 36, because that's a nice square and it's more than twice what his macbook could do
20:34:02 <fizzie> Vorpal: If I counted right, 5704x3565 would give approx. 306dpi with a 22" diagonal.
20:34:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice
20:34:23 <fizzie> (This one gets 144dpi or so with 1920x1080 in 15.4".)
20:34:23 <Vorpal> yeah I would need a new GPU for that to run smoothly
20:34:34 <Vorpal> nice
20:34:54 <olsner> Vorpal: really? I think you probably don't need a gpu at all for that resolution
20:35:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually I could view the entire photos from my camera with 1:1 zoom at that resolution
20:35:04 <Vorpal> easily
20:35:11 <Vorpal> iirc it is 37xx x something
20:35:14 <fizzie> That Retina MacBook or whatever that we already discussed has 2880x1800 in the same 15.4" form factor.
20:35:16 <Vorpal> or something like that
20:35:19 <Vorpal> olsner, what
20:35:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does that equate in dpi
20:36:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: 220dpi.
20:36:41 <Vorpal> fair enough
20:36:59 <Vorpal> anyway at 300 dpi I suspect you could do serif fonts with no issues
20:37:00 <Vorpal> no?
20:37:47 <olsner> I think a typical desktop resolution doesn't need any acceleration at all to work, and 5704x3565 is only like 5x more than what I have now
20:37:51 <fizzie> Given that they work on paper, presumably.
20:38:04 <Vorpal> olsner, well I meant for 3D games to run smoothly of course
20:38:53 <Vorpal> but yeah I would expect 2D acceleration would be taxed by a resolution like that still
20:38:57 <Vorpal> but maybe not
20:39:24 <fizzie> olsner: You have something like 2560x1600 now, then? Fancy.
20:39:25 <Vorpal> also 120 Hz monitors are awesome
20:41:01 <olsner> fizzie: one 1920x1200 and one 1600x1200
20:41:03 <Vorpal> hm, what about that 4096p video format thing?
20:41:44 <fizzie> Dual-link DVI bandwidth "only" goes up to 3840x2400 or so, which might be a problem for the 300dpi 22" monitor. Though I suppose the more modern things have bumped that up.
20:41:51 <Vorpal> also dammit, why doesn't the youtube player offer an option to neither downscale or upscale 720p video
20:42:05 <Vorpal> s/or/nor/
20:42:34 <fizzie> I think it did, at least down-.
20:43:04 <Vorpal> well I want to play it at 720p on screen, I'm pretty sure it downscales unless full screen, and full screen upscales
20:43:28 <fizzie> Oh, I misread that.
20:43:37 <olsner> me too, it sounded like you wanted scaling
20:43:43 <fizzie> Without the 'n' in 'neither' or something.
20:44:00 <fizzie> Yes, it doesn't have a don't-scale option, that is probably true.
20:44:20 <olsner> I think it's just ambiguous with two possible readings that mean the opposite things
20:44:29 <Vorpal> right
20:44:45 <Vorpal> and youtube-dl + vlc is more work
20:45:13 <Vorpal> hm I should get an USB OTG cable...
20:45:29 <nortti> for what?
20:45:53 <Vorpal> nortti, for connecting stuff like mice and usb memories to my phone.
20:46:22 <nortti> Vorpal: what phone do you have?
20:46:28 <Vorpal> nortti, Samsung Galaxy S3
20:46:35 <Vorpal> (I9300, the international version)
20:47:17 <Vorpal> anyway, I need a micro USB plug to USB type A socket cable
20:47:22 <Vorpal> (those exist)
20:47:41 <nortti> I know. I have used one with nokia n810
20:47:56 <Vorpal> oh okay
20:48:02 <Vorpal> I wonder where to get hold of them
20:48:04 <nortti> but why do you want to attach mouse to androind phone?
20:48:24 <Vorpal> nortti, well maybe not mouse, but what about gamepad?
20:48:37 <nortti> hmm. that sound less crazy
20:48:45 <fizzie> I've done the N900 + PS3 gamepad over bluetooth thing, it worked reasonably well.
20:48:49 <Vorpal> or keyboard for when IRC chatting
20:49:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, PS3 does communication over USB too right?
20:49:09 <Vorpal> or does it only use that for charging?
20:49:23 <fizzie> It uses USB for talking, too, if you have the wire in.
20:49:23 <nortti> some kind of folding keyboard would be nice for that kind of things
20:49:28 <Vorpal> ah
20:49:29 <fizzie> That's how I use it with the computer, mostly.
20:49:35 <fizzie> No worries about batteries, after all.
20:49:56 <Vorpal> I do want to get one... but they are kind of expensive
20:50:07 <Vorpal> and the PS2 needs a converter right?
20:50:13 <nortti> fizzie: have you tried nemo os/mer on your n900?
20:50:32 <nortti> fizzie: also should I buy one
20:51:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. I've got an old PSX no-analog gamepad with an inexpensive converter for a second pad. Not that I've ever used it for that, I don't really do "friends". (I did use it before I got the PS3 pad, though.)
20:51:42 <fizzie> nortti: Buy one what? And no, I haven't tried nemo/mer or anything especially "nonstandard". Haven't really seen the need, since it works just fine as a SSH client as is.
20:51:46 <Vorpal> well I definitely want analog controllers
20:51:52 <Vorpal> that is the only reason to get a gamepad
20:51:56 <nortti> fizzie: n900
20:52:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, N900 has plastic screen right? Not gorilla glass?
20:52:24 <Vorpal> I saw one that was like super-scratched recently
20:52:26 <fizzie> nortti: Well, I don't have recommendations like that.
20:53:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. I've got a 3 EUR plastic film on top of the screen, thought I'll just change it if it gets too scratchy.
20:53:11 <nortti> Vorpal: n900 has plastic resistive screen that from what I have used is better than any capasitive screen I have used
20:53:47 <fizzie> I like the screen, but quite a lot of people go all "it's not capacitive so it's completely useless" out of what I think are philosophical reasons.
20:54:03 <fizzie> Given winter temperatures in Finland, I like how it's glove-usable, at least.
20:54:04 <Vorpal> nortti, can't you do a resistive glass screen?
20:54:13 <nortti> Vorpal: no
20:54:26 <Vorpal> anyway I prefer something that work with gloves sure, but I even more prefer something durable
20:55:12 <nortti> fizzie: for a long time I was "it's not resistive so it's completely useless" but then I used htc wildfire and was "it's not resistive so it's mostly useless"
20:55:50 <nortti> Vorpal: I still have screen of my nokia 7710 in a very good shape
20:55:53 <fizzie> Durability is a matter of handling, I personally think. I mean, sure, if you stick it uncovered in a pocket with keys, I suppose it could get scratchy. Anyway, I think the replaceable sticker thing is a reasonable "solution". (Anyway, to each his or her own.)
20:56:13 <Vorpal> eh, during non-winter capacitive works just fine. And I guess I just have to live with using capacitive gloves. Since finding resistive screens is hard
20:56:51 <Vorpal> also can you do oleophobic plastic screens?
20:56:54 <fizzie> I use the N900 stylus quite a lot too, and I understand that's also something "people" hate to do.
20:57:06 <Vorpal> because oleophobic rocks. That is one reason I don't want copter screen protector or similar
20:57:11 <nortti> I love styluses
20:57:12 <Vorpal> because they are not oleophobic
20:57:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, it means you have to use two hands
20:57:30 <Vorpal> which is not always that easy
20:58:39 <fizzie> I don't think the N900 is that terribly well-designed from the one-hand point of view, to be honest. (E.g. just unlocking it with one hand is a bit of a pain, since the hardware lock slider thing is not easy to operate single-handedly, at least for me.)
20:59:11 <fizzie> I suppose you can do the button + slide to unlock thing, but it's not one of my habits.
20:59:14 <Vorpal> heh
20:59:19 <Vorpal> hardware lock slider
20:59:20 <Vorpal> nice
20:59:56 <fizzie> It's nice until it breaks. :p (I've heard of a two or three cases in the interwebs where the hardware slider has just started spewing hundreds of firing events to the board all the time.)
21:00:56 <Vorpal> ouch
21:01:02 <fizzie> It's a spring sort of a thing, it stays in one position and then you slide it down to unlock the screen, it goes back to the previous position by itself. But it's about in the middle of one of the narrow sides, so it's a bit hard with one hand, at least for me.
21:01:20 <Vorpal> that sounds like stupid placement indeed
21:01:39 <fizzie> The whole portrait mode is a bit of an afterthought in the N900. :p
21:02:01 <fizzie> Shows its tablet roots, the way it wants to be landscape most of the time.
21:02:37 <fizzie> They added portrait mode support in the browser, and portrait virtual keyboard, quite late in the software too.
21:03:07 <fizzie> (I mean "it had already been released for a while" late.)
21:04:08 <fizzie> At least the photo browser has always (I think?) done autorotation properly. But initially that was one of the few apps that did.
21:04:57 <fizzie> I'm not even sure if the desktop portrait mode is in the latest official Nokia version, actually.
21:06:04 <Vorpal> heh
21:06:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, so auto rotation is not an OS wide feature?
21:06:21 <nortti> no
21:06:22 <Vorpal> that is kind of crazy
21:06:28 <Vorpal> on a phone I mean
21:06:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about rotation in the caller software?
21:06:43 <nortti> yeah. it has tablet roots
21:06:46 <fizzie> It kind of is, now, in that the GUI libs support it.
21:07:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't those just gtk?
21:07:07 <nortti> hildon
21:07:11 <fizzie> There's QT now.
21:07:18 <fizzie> It's where they were going to.
21:07:35 <fizzie> And the "Phone" app is mostly portrait, yes. One of the few exceptions.
21:07:41 <nortti> but then meego was shot down. and tjen meltemi
21:07:50 <fizzie> I don't think it goes into landscape except if you open the hardware keyboard.
21:08:54 <fizzie> Anyway, personally I think something like 70% of my use is just with the hardware keyboard (plus XTerminal + ssh) open, so it doesn't matter all that much. (And most of the rest is in the ebook reader, which has done custom rotation from the start, so you can keep it in portrait mode and read books easily, scrolling pages with the hardware +/- volume rocker which is well-positioned under thumb ...
21:09:00 <fizzie> ... when holding the device portraitly.)
21:09:14 <nortti> fizzie: have you ever used pre-fremantle maemo or maemo tablets?
21:09:52 <fizzie> Not really used-as-in-owned, though I've tried a friend's tablet (I forget which one, exactly) out.
21:10:19 <nortti> did it have hwkeyboard?
21:10:29 <nortti> *hw keyboard
21:10:32 <fizzie> Yes, I think it did.
21:10:38 <nortti> n810
21:10:45 <nortti> running maemo 4
21:10:47 <fizzie> Could be.
21:10:53 <fizzie> There was some sort of a directional pad too, I believe.
21:11:00 <nortti> I have nokia 770
21:11:25 <nortti> I got it in 2005
21:11:34 <nortti> it runs maemo 1
21:11:44 <fizzie> I also briefly fiddled some tablet prototype in some sort of a place (maybe it was at NRC when I spent one summer there?), but I've completely forgotten how that fits in the family tree.
21:12:01 <nortti> NRC?
21:12:08 <fizzie> Nokia Research Centre.
21:12:13 <fizzie> Or maybe it's Center.
21:12:18 <nortti> oh. when was it?
21:12:25 <fizzie> In 2007, I think.
21:12:39 <nortti> then it was probably n800 or n810
21:13:24 <fizzie> Very possible. It had some amount of tape holding bits of it in place, that's about all I can remember.
21:13:29 <nortti> :p
21:14:48 <fizzie> And there was another prototype device (of some Symbian phone) that they didn't have well-fitting flasher hardware receptables for, so you had to keep holding the stupid thing pressed down (so that the pins caught the flashing contacts exposed through a hole behind the battery or something) during the whole flashing process.
21:15:14 <fizzie> For the regular ones the "proper" flasher bit sort of snapped together with the phone and held it in place.
21:15:52 <fizzie> Fortunately I've completely forgotten the device code names; they were funny, but I'm sure they're officially top secret insider information.
21:16:00 <fizzie> Though I've seen some of them in the interwebs.
21:16:24 <nortti> kinda like 7700 was officialy never released
21:19:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, funny?
21:19:32 <fizzie> Well, humorous.
21:19:48 <Vorpal> which ones did you see on the interwebs then
21:19:57 <nortti> there was list of codenames published in nyt some years ago
21:19:57 <Vorpal> surely those are well known already
21:20:03 <Vorpal> nortti, got a link?
21:20:20 <nortti> Vorpal: it is a paper magazine
21:20:25 <Vorpal> oh right
21:20:35 <fizzie> I've completely forgotten. But they're not *that* funny.
21:21:01 <nortti> I had scans of it on my old hd that broke
21:21:28 <fizzie> I've heard (and Wikipedia knows this too) that N9 was called "lankku" (plank, i.e. flat piece of wood), presumably due to the shape. But I'm not sure if that was actually the internal project codename or just a regular nickname.
21:22:25 <fizzie> 2007 was like half a decade ago, after all.
21:23:40 <Vorpal> dammit I want this music but it seems to only be available on iTunes...
21:23:43 <fizzie> I did get my (personal) N-gage's system software updated to the latest version at the Nokia HQ's phone-support desk with no extra cost. (I believe normally they charge some money for doing that unless you actually are having some problems with it and thus can get it done as a warranty fix.)
21:23:52 <nortti> my father told me that n92 was called halko
21:24:04 <fizzie> That sounds very possible.
21:24:16 <Vorpal> what would that name mean?
21:24:27 <fizzie> Uh, larger piece of wood.
21:24:27 <nortti> hmm.
21:24:41 <Vorpal> heh
21:25:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, a single word for "larger piece of wood"?
21:25:12 <Vorpal> awesome
21:25:17 <fizzie> "A log (piece of wood to be burned)" according to wiktionary.
21:25:24 <Vorpal> ah
21:25:26 <Vorpal> okay
21:25:29 <Vorpal> not so super-awesome then
21:25:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure it's exactly the same as the English "log" though.
21:26:06 <fizzie> 1. (7) log -- (a segment of the trunk of a tree when stripped of branches)
21:26:32 <Vorpal> hm okay
21:26:33 <nortti> also older nokia phones are sometimes called halko-nokia
21:26:34 <fizzie> I mean, "halko" kind of has a connotation that it's small enough to be burned in a wood stove or something.
21:26:41 <Vorpal> right
21:27:06 <fizzie> Or shorter, at least.
21:27:08 <fizzie> The kind of thing that you'd take an axe to, to make firewoord, instead of a whole tree trunk.
21:27:15 <fizzie> s/woord/wood/
21:27:30 <fizzie> Or possibly the results of the chopping.
21:27:39 <FireFly> so, 'ved'
21:28:06 <Vorpal> quite
21:28:24 <fizzie> "halko s
21:28:24 <fizzie> vedträ [-t/-et,-n,-na], ved [-en,-,-], klamp [-en,-ar,-arna]
21:28:33 <fizzie> Says the MOT Finnish/Swedish dictionary.
21:28:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, MOT?
21:28:53 <Taneb> Ministry of Transport
21:28:54 <fizzie> It's this dictionary company.
21:29:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
21:29:04 <Vorpal> Taneb, har
21:29:10 <fizzie> I don't know if it's short for something, except for the things it's commonly short for.
21:29:29 <fizzie> It's like QED in Finnish, too, but I doubt that's related.
21:29:49 <nortti> also television program produced by YLE
21:30:18 <nortti> YLE is short for yleisradio
21:30:23 <fizzie> Actually MOT seems to be just the brand name, and the company's called "Kielikone" (lit. "language machine").
21:30:58 <fizzie> Their home page doesn't seem to describe why it's called "MOT".
21:31:31 <fizzie> (It's a commercial thing, but accessible via the university's web-proxy, they have some sort of a volume license deal. (Many other schools and universities also do.))
21:31:51 <Vorpal> hm anyone know a good way to extract the audio of a video file (MP4) to a music file (OGG Vorbis)
21:32:00 <Vorpal> or well, any other suitable format for the music
21:32:34 <Vorpal> I guess ffmpeg can do it (is there anything it can't?) but the question is how
21:32:41 <fizzie> I've used ffmpeg's command-line tool to do that kind of things, but it doesn't exactly have the most memorable command line syntax, so it's always a moment spent fiddling with the man pages.
21:32:49 <Vorpal> ffmpeg: missing argument for option '--help'
21:32:52 <Vorpal> yay
21:32:53 <fizzie> VLC's "save/stream" advanced wizard thing can probably do it too.
21:33:27 <fizzie> (You can select a "no-transcode" option in there if you don't want it to mess with the content, assuming codecs compatible with the containers involved.)
21:33:41 <nortti> Vorpal: ffmpeg -i inputfile outputfile
21:33:48 <Vorpal> nortti, that saves the audio?
21:33:56 <nortti> yes
21:33:57 <Vorpal> what audio format does MP4 contains? Or does that vary?
21:34:01 <Vorpal> nortti, thanks
21:34:02 <fizzie> If it's an audio-only output format, it will automagically do a sensible thing.
21:34:19 <Vorpal> I think it might be more than stereo though
21:34:26 <Vorpal> 5.1 or 7.1
21:34:35 <Vorpal> not 100% sure though
21:34:40 <fizzie> It will print out information about the streams, you can see what it's doing and if it looks sensible.
21:36:41 <fizzie> I don't suppose it's a YouTube MP4, incidentally?
21:36:47 <Taneb> Is it normal to be able to whistle both while inhaling and exhaling?
21:36:56 <Vorpal> and then I need to import it into audacity or something anyway to cut out a bit of a outro bit that I don't want
21:37:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, no you a totally a freak!
21:37:26 <Taneb> Is it normal to be on fire?
21:37:28 <Vorpal> (no idea, does it sound the same or slightly different quality?)
21:37:38 <fizzie> I thought it was normal. (Though I can just produce a whistling sound, not to actually whistle anything sensible.)
21:37:49 <Taneb> Inhaling has a higher range than exhaling
21:37:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I think it is normal too
21:38:08 <Vorpal> huh?
21:38:19 <fizzie> (The YouTube question was because youtube-dl has that --extract-audio flag which will automagically invoke the ffmpeg command line tools to save only the audio.)
21:38:25 <Vorpal> my experience is that I get less pure tones when inhaling
21:38:36 <Taneb> I can whistle tunes with both in and out, but inhaling sounds higher pitched
21:38:39 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I don't suppose it's a YouTube MP4, incidentally? <-- yes
21:38:52 <Vorpal> I already have the files downloaded though
21:39:03 <fizzie> In that case you probably don't want to use the flag.
21:39:18 <fizzie> It's not exactly a useful flag if you want both look at things and extract the audio, too.
21:39:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I do want to cut out a bit on the end where it is a bit of a different music video (with some clickable annotation stuff)
21:40:04 <fizzie> If you're lucky, you could do that with ffmpeg without re-compression, possibly.
21:40:11 <Vorpal> how?
21:40:30 <fizzie> You'd need to give start offsets and lengths in seconds, though, so it's not quite as user-friendly as doing it in Audacity.
21:40:45 <Vorpal> might not even be whole seconds
21:41:04 <fizzie> It's something like "-ss HH:MM:SS.xxx" to do a seek at the start.
21:41:09 <Vorpal> ah
21:41:29 <fizzie> And then "-t" and a similar timestamp to specify the duration of what to extract.
21:41:40 <Vorpal> well I want 0 to whatever point
21:41:43 <Vorpal> so I guess just -t
21:41:47 <fizzie> Okay. Then it's just -t.
21:41:55 <Vorpal> anyway, I need vlc to give me exact timestamps
21:41:57 <Vorpal> how
21:42:00 <Vorpal> gnh
21:42:13 <fizzie> Heh. Well, you could extract the whole thing and then get timestamps from Audacity.
21:42:20 <Vorpal> yeah that would work
21:42:37 <Vorpal> anyway I need to get the codec in mp4 to avoid transcoding the audio
21:42:52 <Vorpal> my natural instinct is using .ogg for output but that is not going to work
21:43:15 <Vorpal> could read the youtube-dl code I guess
21:43:18 <fizzie> If it's from YouTube, I think it's always either MP3 or AAC (the latter for the "high-quality" formats), but I could be wrong there.
21:43:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, some videos are 720p some are 1080p
21:43:41 <Vorpal> have a handful of videos to do this on
21:43:56 <fizzie> I'm under the impression that all that get labeled as "HD" have AAC audio in them. But, again, could be wrong.
21:44:39 <fizzie> Anyway, if you just 'ffmpeg' it into whatever, it'll report what was in there, IIRC.
21:44:41 <Vorpal> guess I could take a look at vlc debug output, it tends to dump a lot of stuff on the terminal when running
21:44:46 <Vorpal> or that
21:44:48 <oerjan> <Taneb> Is it normal to be able to whistle both while inhaling and exhaling? <-- nope, we are both freaks
21:45:09 <fizzie> So you can just "ffmpeg -i file.mp4 test.wav" to get the Audacity timestampable version, and then "ffmpeg -i file.mp4 -t duration output.ext".
21:45:20 <Vorpal> yeah it is AAC
21:45:57 <Vorpal> yeah that should work
21:46:16 <fizzie> I don't know what AAC audio gets conventionally stored in. Though I've certainly seen files with just a ".aac" extension.
21:46:31 <Vorpal> yeah I think that is how it is usually stored
21:46:34 <fizzie> "In addition to the MP4, 3GP and other ISO base media file format-based container formats for storage, AAC audio data may be packaged in a more basic format called Audio Data Interchange Format (ADIF),[39] consisting of a single header followed by the raw AAC audio data blocks.[40] Alternatively, it may be packaged in a streaming format called Audio Data Transport Stream (ADTS), consisting of ...
21:46:40 <fizzie> ... a series of frames, each frame having a header followed by the AAC audio data.[39] Both formats are defined in MPEG-2 Part 7, but are only considered informative by MPEG-4, so an MPEG-4 decoder does not need to support either format.[39] These containers, as well as a raw AAC stream, may bear the .aac file extension."
21:46:53 <fizzie> How typically confused.
21:47:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the tagging format of .aac files?
21:47:18 <Vorpal> ID3?
21:47:21 <fizzie> Heh, no idea.
21:47:36 <Vorpal> ID3 is of course a mess too, as I'm sure I mentioned recently
21:49:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure if ffmpeg is magicky enough to extract only audio if you specify a file.m4a as output. (That's a common name for a MP4 file that has only an audio stream, and I think they have some sort of a common metadata thing, though that latter part is just a hunch.)
21:50:01 <Vorpal> heh
21:51:57 <Vorpal> will try in a bit, working on getting the media files to the right computer atm
21:53:31 <Vorpal> FFmpeg version SVN-r0.5.9-4:0.5.9-0ubuntu0.10.04.1, Copyright (c) 2000-2009 Fabrice Bellard, et al. <-- hm. That guy's name sounds familiar.
21:53:39 <Vorpal> Not the qemu guy, right?
21:53:43 <nortti> yes
21:53:49 <nortti> also the tcc guy
21:53:53 <Vorpal> right
21:54:01 <fizzie> Fingers in all pies.
21:54:04 <Vorpal> quite
21:55:02 <fizzie> Based on a quick test, you will need to "ffmpeg -vn -i infile.ext outfile.m4a" if you want to have it drop the video stream but output a MP4 file. (Not that I'm explicitly advocating a MP4 audio-only container, I have no idea about player/metadata compatibilities.)
21:55:27 <fizzie> (-vn and -an are the "disable video recording" and "disable audio recording" flags of ffmpeg, respectively.)
21:56:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I'm pretty sure my phone can do .aac so that is what I'm aiming for
21:56:21 <Vorpal> vn = video not?
21:56:36 <Vorpal> nv sounds saner (no video)
21:57:01 <Taneb> Goodnight
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21:57:43 <fizzie> Probably. Or "none". There's at least different "-aX" flags that control different aspects of the audio (bitrates and such), maybe it's copying tht.
21:58:06 <fizzie> I have a feeling I've put raw .aac files on the N900 too, as ring/SMS tones, but I don't know about hanging tags in them.
21:58:19 <Vorpal> tht?
21:58:31 <fizzie> That.
21:58:36 <Vorpal> ah
21:59:31 <Vorpal> anyway I use flac on my computer for music (unless the source format was not a CD), and ogg vorbis for any flac when copying that music to my phone.
21:59:44 <Vorpal> I don't think I have any .aac before though
22:00:02 <fizzie> Having an ".aac" output extension seems to "Output #0, adts, to 'test.aac'" so it'll be an ADTS file. I suppose that must be popular, if it defaults to that.
22:01:52 <fizzie> "Is there a "standard" for tagging AAC ADTS/ADIF ? I see that mp3tag uses APEv2? -- They are usually tagged like MP3 files - ID3v1, ID3v2, APEv2, etc." (Random Google-hit.)
22:02:49 <Vorpal> hm
22:03:07 <Vorpal> fair enough, I use picard mostly for tagging
22:03:18 <Vorpal> and then mp3tag to embed cover art
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22:33:41 <oerjan> huh
22:33:52 <oerjan> `log stanley>
22:34:27 * oerjan taps fingers
22:34:31 <HackEgo> No output.
22:34:34 <oerjan> `log stanley>
22:34:51 <HackEgo> 2010-06-04.txt:16:08:52: <jamesstanley> you specify
22:34:59 <oerjan> `log <stanley>
22:35:06 <HackEgo> 2012-07-14.txt:22:34:59: <oerjan> `log <stanley>
22:35:15 <oerjan> `pastelogs <stanley>
22:35:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2404
22:35:47 <oerjan> i guess he never got around to say anything in this channel
22:37:02 -!- const has changed nick to invariable.
22:37:03 <quintopia> oh
22:38:23 <Vorpal> hrrm, my ffmpeg did not like aac? why
22:38:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
22:40:21 <oerjan> and my znogf is gaffled, too
22:41:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, who was/is stenley?
22:41:28 <Vorpal> stanley*
22:41:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, and what is "and my znogf is gaffled, too" all about?
22:42:43 <Vorpal> ah the ffmpeg on the other computer worked
22:43:08 <Vorpal> actually it didn't
22:43:17 <Vorpal> it just left empty files
22:43:30 <Vorpal> dammit
22:44:31 <Vorpal> oh it can only decode aac
22:47:05 <oerjan> Vorpal: (1) some guy who just got k-lined above, after being here for more than an hour without saying anything
22:47:16 <Vorpal> ah
22:47:56 <oerjan> (2) I just got struck by how incomprehensible "hrrm, my ffmpeg did not like aac? why" would look to a non-technical person
22:48:08 <Vorpal> ah
22:48:19 <Vorpal> seems it has decoding only support for it
22:51:01 <Vorpal> aha found it
22:52:21 <fizzie> Might be split into different packages.
22:52:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> Vorpal: (1) some guy who just got k-lined above, after being here for more than an hour without saying anything
22:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> He was probably a refugee.
22:53:13 <Phantom_Hoover> If only he knew how IRC worked.
22:57:16 <fizzie> Funny, though, you'd think even without the libfaac dependency it could just copy the stuffs, assuming libavformat is what does the actual bundling in an ADTS file.
22:58:09 <fizzie> I do think ffmpeg does try to not re-encode if it's possible.
22:59:08 <fizzie> Might be worthwhile to explicitly "-acodec copy" though.
22:59:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: wat
22:59:39 <fizzie> (Then it will at least barf if things are not going to work out, instead of silently doing something complicated.)
23:04:56 <Vorpal> building my own ffmpeg atm
23:05:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually -acodec copy worked
23:05:34 <Vorpal> I think
23:06:03 <Vorpal> yeah it did
23:13:51 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:15:26 -!- Dovregubben has joined.
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23:16:04 <Vorpal> who is Dovregubben? And that sounds like something in Norwegian?
23:16:08 <Vorpal> oerjan, right?
23:18:38 <oerjan> Vorpal: you are _so_ late
23:19:09 <oerjan> (also, it's a troll from Ibsen's Peer Gynt, and possibly Norwegian folklore in general)
23:21:05 <oerjan> "Selv om Dovregubben bygger på norske eventyr og sagn med røtter tilbake til hedensk tid, er navnet og figuren sannsynligvis Ibsens egen konstruksjon.[trenger referanse]"
23:21:18 <oerjan> take that as you will :P
23:27:04 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm?
23:27:18 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah so that guy, is he Norwegian?
23:27:38 <oerjan> Dovregubben: er du norsk?
23:28:20 <oerjan> the comcast address does not precisely strengthen the theory
23:28:47 <oerjan> `pastelogs dovregubben
23:28:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29444
23:30:02 <oerjan> i say no: <Dovregubben> we may have declared independence on July 4, 1776, but the rest of the world didn't recognize us as independent until years later (if at all)
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23:32:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, whatever format mp3tag uses to write the tags in is not working in either vlc nor on the phone
23:32:44 <Vorpal> hrrm
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2012-07-15
00:00:06 <Vorpal> screw this
00:00:20 <Vorpal> no application does aac tagging compatibly!
00:00:21 <Vorpal> why
00:00:32 <Vorpal> I'm just going to transcode it to .ogg
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00:31:48 <kmc> i keep the master copy of my music collection in a simple "artist/album/nn - track.ext" directory structure
00:31:55 <kmc> because multi-container tagging is a pain
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00:32:30 <kmc> i have a script to transcode a subset of that to ogg vorbis and tag it, for my portable player
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00:53:36 <zzo38> Do you like Ogg containers?
00:56:38 <soundnfury> who doesn't?
01:02:52 <oerjan> I do not like greens oggs and hogs
01:02:58 <oerjan> *green
01:03:19 <zzo38> Do you like the Decompose type I have made up in Haskell?
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01:08:15 <soundnfury> I do not like them, o-er-jan
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01:15:17 <zzo38> Do you like CodensityAsk (and CodensityAskT)? I have figured out many things about it.
01:20:21 <zzo38> (CodensityAsk (Store s)) is also MonadPlus.
01:21:17 <Vorpal> hm on-board sucks so badly. I just compared it to my phone, my phone has way better bass than my desktop's onboard sound (using a pair of studio headphones in both cases). My SB Live beats both of course.
01:22:14 <zzo38> After edwardk told about F-algebras to make free monad and so on, I realized that making the free comonad from Maybe and from the Copeanoid class it is also a F-coalgebra for Maybe so it is the same thing.
01:22:37 <zzo38> Even though I can already see that it is a non-empty list comonad in both cases, now I can see the similarity, too.
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01:29:36 <Vorpal> zzo38, wow that went completely over my head
01:29:53 <Vorpal> should learn more category theory I guess
01:34:29 <tswett> TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR
01:34:46 <tswett> Today's puzzle: come up with #defines so that that expression works as expected.
01:35:00 <tswett> The first few seem easy enough:
01:35:38 <tswett> #define ONE 1; #define TWO 2; #define FOUR 4; #define THIRTEEN 13; #define FORTY_ 40 +; #define _HUNDRED_ * 100 +
01:35:53 <tswett> The hard part is _THOUSAND_.
01:36:35 <tswett> I guess the best I can think of is #define _THOUSAND_ ) * 1000 + (
01:36:43 <tswett> Then (TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR) will work correctly.
01:37:00 <tswett> I think.
01:37:12 <kmc> #define TWO 213144; #define _HUNDRED_ + 0; #define THIRTEEN + 0; ...
01:37:29 <tswett> kmc: I said "as expected". That's not how I would expect it to work.
01:37:35 <kmc> oh
01:37:40 <kmc> i wouldn't expect it to work at all
01:38:00 <oerjan> if one may assume that an expression like TWO _HUNDRED_ alone should also work, then there are more problems...
01:38:25 <tswett> Nah, there'd be a separate symbol, _HUNDRED, for that.
01:38:31 <oerjan> oh
01:38:59 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:39:03 <kmc> <$ <$> <* <*> *>
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01:39:15 <oerjan> well TWO and FOUR need to work alone, which means they cannot contain any unbalanced bracketing
01:40:27 <tswett> Then FORTY_ must work next to FOUR, so it can't have unbalanced bracketing, either.
01:40:35 -!- DH____ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:40:42 <tswett> Then you can conclude the same for _HUNDRED_, then for _THOUSAND_, right?
01:40:49 <tswett> So you need some real trickery.
01:40:54 <oerjan> which tells me we need to use precedence to get the grouping correct, not brackets
01:42:20 <oerjan> it might be worth looking into more operators than + and *
01:42:20 <comex> is C++ allowed? ;)
01:42:36 <kmc> i still don't understand the problem statement
01:42:39 <tswett> The C preprocessor is supposed to be Turing-complete, isn't it?
01:42:45 <Gregor> No.
01:42:50 <Gregor> It's explicitly designed not to be.
01:42:54 <kmc> what does it mean for it to work "as expected"
01:42:54 <tswett> Oh.
01:43:00 <kmc> cpp is turing complete if you allow a file to re-include itself
01:43:04 <kmc> more or less?
01:43:04 <Gregor> No, it's not.
01:43:10 <tswett> kmc: make it so that the written-out form of any number evaluates to the correct number.
01:43:11 <Gregor> We had this debate a while ago, it's still not.
01:43:12 <oerjan> tswett: C++ might make a lot of difference to C, since you can overload operators
01:43:13 <comex> though it is, with a certain nonstandard feature
01:43:21 <kmc> i assume implementations have limits on sizes of things
01:43:23 <soundnfury> cpp is designed to guarantee termination, no?
01:43:26 <kmc> comex: which feature?
01:43:32 <comex> pragma push_macro
01:43:34 <Gregor> Well, sure, it could be with nonstandard features, but even with no limit on inclusion depth, it's not TC.
01:43:37 <comex> you can use it to do recursive macros
01:43:56 <kmc> why is it not turing complete if you allow re-inclusion
01:43:57 <Gregor> You can't simulate state changes and without that sort of special macro you can't do recursion.
01:44:15 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
01:44:23 <Gregor> Or rather, sorry, you can't simulate unbounded memory.
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01:44:28 <Gregor> You can only do a finite number of states.
01:44:34 <oerjan> tswett: i think we really need to know is this is supposed to work with just C...
01:44:46 <Gregor> Because you can't really define macros in terms of previously defined macros.
01:44:48 <comex> anyway, that wouldn't really help here because there's no enclosing macro
01:44:53 <tswett> It seems easy to do it with C++. Just find some operators with the required precedence (you only need four) and overload them.
01:45:13 <comex> you actually only need one
01:45:28 <tswett> So let's say it must be done in plain C.
01:45:55 <Gregor> If you were allowed to require that they be prefixed by some NUMBER_START macro it'd be easy >_>
01:46:05 <Gregor> Or, equivalently, suffixed.
01:46:10 <Gregor> (Or both of course)
01:46:13 <tswett> #define NUMBER_START ((; #define NUMBER_END ))
01:46:18 <tswett> And then my scheme works.
01:46:25 <tswett> Gregor: what's your scheme?
01:47:03 <Gregor> tswett: struct numberthing { int value; struct numberthing (*add)(int v); struct numberthing (*mul)(int v); };
01:47:19 <Gregor> You just need to be able to get the value back out at the end.
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01:50:53 <oerjan> hm...
01:51:16 <kmc> struct numberwang
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01:51:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: OK then learn
01:52:07 <zzo38> You could look at Wikipedia article about F-algebra
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01:53:45 <oerjan> hm what about the 3[a] trick, can that help?
01:54:45 * oerjan is browsing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operators_in_C_and_C%2B%2B#Operator_precedence
01:54:52 <Gregor> ... you brilliant, brilliant psychopath.
01:55:17 <Gregor> All you need is an array of size 1000, mapping x to 1000*x... oh wait, that operator's precedence is no more convenient than * though.
01:55:18 <oerjan> WHY THANK YOU
01:55:40 <Phantom_Hoover> What are you trying
01:56:05 <oerjan> Gregor: except you can _combine_ it with a real + for the thousands?
01:56:17 <Gregor> <tswett> TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR
01:56:17 <Gregor> <tswett> Today's puzzle: come up with #defines so that that expression works as expected.
01:56:28 <comex> 3[a] trick?
01:56:42 <oerjan> hm the problem is you still need something else to join the part after it...
01:56:43 <Gregor> oerjan: I think it's salvageable, I just haven't figured out how yet.
01:56:50 <Gregor> comex: In C, a[3] and 3[a] are equivalent.
01:56:56 <comex> oh
01:57:45 <kmc> is there a fake C facts blog
01:57:46 <Gregor> oerjan: Maybe EVERY op uses [], except that THOUSAND, MILLION etc use [...]+0
01:58:21 <Gregor> Oh, except then you couldn't get both TWENTY_ TWO and TWO to work, at least not without _TWO being a thing.
01:58:37 <oerjan> bitwise OR would have been nice if you tried doing this for binary :P
01:58:43 <oerjan> (|)
01:58:44 <Gregor> oerjan: Yeah, I thought of that.
01:58:44 <kmc> "arrays in C actually contain one extra element at the end" is a commonly believed fake C fact
01:58:48 <comex> what if
01:58:50 <kmc> but not that funny
01:59:05 <comex> #define TWO (two)
01:59:07 <comex> and ditto all the other ones
01:59:13 <comex> where two is a function that returns a function pointer, etc.
01:59:13 <Gregor> tswett: Is there a reason you've chosen to underscore-attach things exactly like that? Can't have TWO_ _HUNDRED_ _THIRTEEN_ _THOUSAND_ _ONE_ _HUNDRED_ _FORTY_ _FOUR?
01:59:42 <Gregor> comex: That was the gist of my struct solution (although yours is more elegant), but the problem is you need a suffix.
01:59:43 <oerjan> kmc: there is a technically true fact slightly similar - it is not undefined behavior to increment a pointer to that address
01:59:53 <Gregor> Otherwise you end up with a function pointer instead of data :(
01:59:55 <oerjan> but dereferencing it still is
01:59:57 <kmc> yeah i think it stems from that
02:00:01 <comex> Gregor: pointers automatically cast to integers :)
02:00:05 <Gregor> lol
02:00:16 <Gregor> So the (two) function will just CONVENIENTLY be at location 0x2?
02:00:31 <kmc> probably an error introduced when the C specification was translated from the original Aramaic
02:00:35 <comex> nah, but it would detect when you've come to the end and give you (void *) result
02:00:49 <Gregor> “detect”
02:00:49 <Gregor> How?
02:01:45 <comex> because you basically have an interpreter
02:02:08 <Gregor> Except that when you're finished is /exactly/ when you don't have an interpreter.
02:02:20 <shachaf> kmc: Is that fact believed because you can say int x[5]; and then compare &x[0] to &x[5]?
02:02:28 <comex> oh, I guess it doesn't know what you end with
02:02:31 <shachaf> Oh, yes, oerjan said that.
02:02:36 <shachaf> (Or something similar.)
02:03:17 <comex> never mind :)
02:03:38 <comex> (I mean, you could still do it by conveniently locating functions in such a way, or trapping SIGSEGV or whatever)
02:06:28 <comex> #define TWO +0<0?0:two()
02:07:14 <comex> use global state
02:07:31 <oerjan> comex: i was just pondering combining , and = :P
02:07:47 <comex> oh durr, , would be easier
02:08:13 <comex> +0,two()
02:09:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.uesp.net/dagger/dagbug.shtml
02:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, and they say modern Bethesda games are buggy.
02:11:52 <shachaf> Fun fact: In JavaScript, (0,eval)(x) is very different from eval(x)
02:12:32 <kmc> shachafun
02:12:39 <oerjan> and then there's something in cpp about joining identifiers, which i only know exists
02:12:47 <ion> shachaf: nice
02:12:53 <oerjan> or tokens, or whatever
02:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, wait, how does that even work?
02:13:18 <shachaf> @google javascript global eval
02:13:23 <lambdabot> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/driscoll/archive/2009/09/08/eval-javascript-global-context
02:13:23 <lambdabot> Title: Eval JavaScript in a global context | Java.net
02:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, (x,y) is a sequencing operation in C-likes.
02:13:34 <Gregor> Indirect eval is global eval.
02:13:42 <Gregor> It's so that scope-modifying evals are statically knowable.
02:13:59 <shachaf> fun fact 0 = 1
02:14:10 <kmc> <3
02:15:53 <ion> Yes, both < 3
02:16:00 <oerjan> oh hm
02:16:28 <oerjan> in c, are global variables and record fields in the same namespace?
02:16:43 <oerjan> otherwise there might be a way to use -> or . ...
02:17:21 * shachaf wonders what people are trying to do here.
02:18:08 * oerjan is just vaguely pondering the TWO _HUNDRED_ THIRTEEN _THOUSAND_ ONE _HUNDRED_ FORTY_ FOUR problem
02:19:06 <oerjan> without actual global state, it seems hard to use anything lower precedence than +, but if something high could be used, _THOUSAND_ could be * 1000 + if there was just
02:19:20 <oerjan> *-if there was just
02:22:52 <oerjan> oh hm FORTY_ TWO _HUNDRED is not necessary to support, i assume. which means _HUNDRED _could_ use the 3[a] trick for the left part
02:23:24 <Gregor> Yes.
02:23:34 <Gregor> The problem with the [a] trick is making both FORTY_ TWO and TWO work.
02:23:50 <Gregor> (And FORTY_ TWO _THOUSAND, of course)
02:24:25 <Gregor> That's why I asked tswett whether a solution with more connectors would work, e.g. FORTY_ _TWO_ _THOUSAND.
02:24:33 <Gregor> Then the [a] trick would give us everything we need.
02:25:02 <Gregor> (It also has the benefit that it'd be much easier to remember how to use it)
02:25:31 <oerjan> a -> or . trick could make FORTY_ TWO and TWO work assuming record fields are in a different namespace
02:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What does C do when you give it a bunch of whitespace-separated digits, out of curiosity?
02:25:53 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Cry a lot.
02:26:14 <Gregor> oerjan: That was my suffixing problem.
02:26:24 <Gregor> oerjan: You can make it work like that, but need a suffix to get it back to a number.
02:26:55 <oerjan> Gregor: or some initialized structures and variables, surely?
02:26:58 <shachaf> > 1 2 base 8 which is 10 base 10 and you take away 3 that's 7
02:27:01 <lambdabot> 1
02:27:22 <kmc> wowchaf
02:27:32 <Gregor> oerjan: I don't see how having initialized structs and vars helps you avoid the suffix issue...
02:27:36 -!- Phosphenes has joined.
02:27:48 -!- Phosphenes has left ("PHOSPHENES HAS LEFT THE CHANNEL").
02:27:50 <shachaf> wheegan?
02:27:59 <tswett> Whoops, where were we.
02:28:18 <kmc> dude
02:28:23 <oerjan> Gregor: if you can have two be both a global variable set to 2 and a field name in your struct...
02:28:23 <kmc> every word in that sentence starts with 'w'
02:28:32 <oerjan> or TWO, even
02:28:32 <tswett> Gregor: well, yeah, the idea is that each underscore represents the presence of an operator.
02:29:25 <Gregor> oerjan: Ohh, I see your game… but you'd still end up with a . problem with the underscores as presented.
02:29:36 <Gregor> tswett: If I'm allowed to throw underscores everywhere, it becomes quite achievable.
02:30:06 <tswett> With my scheme, (FORTY_ _THOUSAND) would process to (40 + ) * 1000.
02:30:31 <tswett> Uh, except no, because _THOUSAND cannot suppress the trailing parenthesis.
02:30:44 <tswett> Okay, (40 + ) * 1000 + (0).
02:30:57 <tswett> Since FORTY_ is 40 +, whereas FORTY is 40.
02:31:47 <oerjan> #define _HUNDRED_ [hArray] ->
02:32:25 <oerjan> or ., whatever
02:32:44 * oerjan has never actually used -> he thinks
02:33:24 <Gregor> I'mma build the [a] trick version.
02:33:54 <oerjan> #define FORTY_ FORTY ->
02:34:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:34:22 <oerjan> oops
02:34:35 <oerjan> that won't work
02:36:06 <oerjan> int FORTY = 40
02:36:33 -!- augur_ has joined.
02:37:08 <tswett> NEGATIVE_ B _PLUS_OR_MINUS_ THE_SQUARE_ROOT_OF_ THE_QUANTITY_ B _SQUARED _MINUS_ FOUR _TIMES_ A _TIMES_ C _ALL_OVER_ TWO _TIMES_ A
02:37:13 <oerjan> #define FORTY_ array_or_field_40
02:37:25 <oerjan> um wait no that was the problem
02:37:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
02:37:43 <oerjan> getting FORTY_ to work both with and without HUNDRED_ preceding
02:38:24 <oerjan> um wait no that's fine
02:39:46 <oerjan> dammit searching for C namespaces gives all those hits about how to do user-definable ones
02:41:42 <kmc> tswett++
02:42:00 <kmc> pretty sure you can have a field and a variable of the same name
02:42:03 <kmc> linux does this all over
02:42:20 <shachaf> Certainly you can have two fields of the same name.
02:42:41 <oerjan> oh right
02:43:46 <Gregor> http://sprunge.us/KbiF Tada
02:44:17 <Gregor> The format isn't exactly as tswett described, but is in fact much, much simpler.
02:45:38 <oerjan> oh that's what you wanted the +0 for
02:47:48 <Gregor> Yeah, it would be unnecessary if I just required that the first word after THOUSAND or MILLION or whatnot not be prefixed.
02:47:49 <Gregor> But bleh.
02:48:23 * soundnfury wonders if you can pull some trick with ##
02:48:43 <Gregor> Um hello it's already done I win guys.
02:49:40 <soundnfury> um, it's ugly?
02:49:54 <soundnfury> and requires preinitialised tables?
02:49:58 <Gregor> :(
02:51:14 <oerjan> "It is also possible to concatenate two numbers (or a number and a name, such as 1.5 and e3) into a number."
02:51:22 <oerjan> so maybe...
02:51:26 <soundnfury> tasty tasty token pasty
02:51:56 <oerjan> "However, it is an error if `##' appears at either end of a macro body. "
02:52:00 <oerjan> sadly.
02:52:03 <Gregor> The problem is you only have token pasting within macros X_X
02:52:08 <Gregor> They need to expand to something consistent.
02:52:22 <soundnfury> so we'd have TWO##THIRTEEN##ONE##FORTY##FOUR, and then HUNDRED etc. would be noise keywords?
02:52:38 <Gregor> soundnfury: You couldn't even use that, because you can only paste tokens WITHIN macros.
02:52:41 <soundnfury> or #define HUNDRED 0 // for eg TWO##HUNDRED##FIVE == 205
02:52:53 <soundnfury> um, ok that sucks
02:53:20 <Gregor> Also, what the hell is TWO THIRTEEN ONE FORTY FOUR
02:53:29 <tswett> 213144.
02:53:33 <Gregor> Oh
02:53:35 <soundnfury> ... obviously
02:53:40 <Gregor> Well for that you're just fucked in any system I think 8-D
02:53:54 <tswett> Or possibly 2131404. But probably not.
02:54:07 <tswett> Although if 213144 were a string of digits, I'd be likely to read it as "twenty-one thirty-one forty-four".
02:54:21 <soundnfury> oh yeah, that would want to be ONE##FOUR##FOUR
02:54:25 <soundnfury> (if we could)
02:54:30 <soundnfury> (which we can't as Gregor notes)
02:54:53 <Gregor> MY SYSTEM IS BEST SYSTEM AND YOU'RE ALL JUST JEALOUS
02:54:55 <soundnfury> anyway, why are we trying to do this? Is someone trying to make C feel more COBOLish?
02:55:00 <Gregor> lol
02:55:04 <oerjan> soundnfury: ask tswett
02:55:23 <tswett> To be esoteric.
02:55:25 <Gregor> Ooooh, with my system you could eschew underscores for capitalization! FOUR becomes Four, _FOUR becomes four!
02:55:26 * soundnfury thinks Welsh television should have a show called Cobol y pwm
02:55:51 <soundnfury> (it's funny because they have one called Pobol y cwm, whatever that means)
02:55:52 <oerjan> Gregor: fancy
02:57:06 <oerjan> "People in the valley"
02:57:16 <kmc> it's about the wonderful art of padlock folding or, "padlockigami"
02:57:28 <soundnfury> kmc: you are david mitchell AICMFP
02:57:45 <kmc> :3
02:57:57 <oerjan> google seems to think "Cobol" still means people when switching the letters
02:58:02 <oerjan> sadly nothing for pwm
02:58:10 <oerjan> *+ translate
02:59:27 <oerjan> oh hm i recall p initially in celtic languages only exists in loanwords, so they may be rare...
02:59:32 <kmc> see? they is his cousins!
03:00:05 <oerjan> or more precisely, that they dropped initial p at some point
03:01:08 <oerjan> also, the only native word in norwegian starting with p is the preposition på (which is a contraction of norse upp á)
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03:01:51 <oerjan> which i guess is cognate to upon
03:02:13 <shachaf> kmc: Is the mosh object synchronization thing meant to be used on its own yet?
03:02:22 <tswett> http://pastie.org/4258682 - THIS TOTALLY WORKS, I IMAGINE
03:02:49 <kmc> shachaf: not exactly, but it is reasonably well abstracted in the mosh source code
03:02:54 <kmc> talk to KeithW about it
03:03:08 <shachaf> That's the eventual plan, though, right?
03:03:20 <kmc> "plan" is a strong word
03:03:21 <oerjan> tswett: a most sublime imagination
03:03:35 <kmc> hmm I'll actually be in Wales next week
03:03:42 <kmc> is there something i should do there besides "take a train to London"?
03:03:56 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
03:04:01 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:04:32 <oerjan> kmc: obviously you need to visit llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
03:04:50 <kmc> obviously, i was planning to pick up some padlocks there
03:04:54 <kmc> from a store or smith
03:05:09 <oerjan> obviously.
03:05:12 <oerjan> (wat?)
03:05:16 <shachaf> * kmc is now known as jonah
03:05:30 <kmc> wat = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Fcy70fhds
03:06:06 * oerjan wonders why youtube things i'm using IE 7
03:06:10 <oerjan> *thinks
03:06:18 <shachaf> Are you using IE 7?
03:06:22 <oerjan> no, 8
03:06:41 <oerjan> and youtube is warning me to change since they'll stop supporting 7.
03:06:57 <shachaf> Are you using IE 7 compatibility mode?
03:07:15 <soundnfury> "By Abergavenny, Merther Tydfil, and Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch!" said Mr. Bargain-Price. "This is too much!"
03:07:23 <soundnfury> - who knows what that's from?
03:07:44 <kmc> oerjan: wow i thought you made that name up
03:09:47 <soundnfury> kmc: you couldn't /make/ something like that up
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03:09:54 <kmc> well yes you could
03:09:59 <kmc> but anyway it does seem like i will go through there
03:10:03 <kmc> as it's on the rail line from holyhead
03:10:31 <kmc> soundnfury: "The village's long name cannot be considered an authentic Welsh-language toponym. It was artificially contrived in the 1860s to bestow upon the station the honour of having the longest name of any railway station in Britain"
03:11:10 <oerjan> shachaf: hm no, although google+ likes to complain that i am :P
03:11:51 <oerjan> i suppose it might be the same cause...
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03:12:11 <soundnfury> kmc: sure, but it wasn't "made up" per se, it's authentic welsh, even if not an authentic welsh name
03:12:19 <soundnfury> as in, it really does mean something
03:12:52 <kmc> that's true
03:17:08 <soundnfury> Ahh, Johnston Railway Sans... now there's a real corker of a font
03:18:13 <kmc> what about dyddiadfymathoobellamaenarywbethygwaithanoddinierdigon
03:19:26 <kmc> which i pulled out of a markov chain just now
03:27:18 <zzo38> In Soviet Russia, YouTube watches YOU!!
03:28:19 <kmc> that is closer to an actual soviet russia joke than most
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03:33:44 <soundnfury> in soviet russia, worn-out meme repeats YOU!!
03:33:58 <soundnfury> ;)
03:34:35 <kmc> yeah
03:35:12 <kmc> the meme'd ones lack the part where the reversal has a comprehensible but different meaning which comments on life in the soviet union
03:35:16 <kmc> i.e. the humor
03:36:02 <soundnfury> indeed. Although it's called humour
03:36:14 <kmc> I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE
03:36:24 <soundnfury> I'M OFFENSIVE AND I FIND THIS WELSH
03:36:38 <kmc> stop choosing to be offended, you mexican jew lizard
03:36:51 * soundnfury raises an eyebrow
03:37:09 <kmc> ("Yes, actually. My mother was from Mexico and my dad was a Hebrew iguana, so...")
03:38:29 <soundnfury> ("No, to be a jew your *mother* would have to be Hebrew, though it doesn't matter which one was the iguana.")
03:38:43 <kmc> ("What are you quoting now?")
03:38:58 <kmc> and that depends who you ask, but yeah basically
03:39:10 <soundnfury> ("I'm not, I'm just irrespectfully disagruntling.")
03:41:52 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
03:42:20 <soundnfury> so, what's your favourite font?
03:42:49 <kmc> http://dotsies.org </troll>
03:44:57 <zzo38> soundnfury: Computer Modern because it has so many parameters which can be varied. But even some things about Computer Modern are not perfectly; but the source-codes is available so you can make improvements (as long as you do not call the new one "Computer Modern"), such as a parameter for "R" with straight lines, and so on.
03:45:07 * oerjan is _guessing_ that the warning he got against IE not working well on the site is why he doesn't see anything special there
03:45:40 <kmc> oerjan: on dotsies?
03:45:44 <oerjan> yes
03:45:53 <oerjan> _or_ that could be the joke, i guess
03:46:13 <kmc> i don't think this is a joke :/
03:46:34 <kmc> well it's a joke to me but i don't know if the author is in on it
03:46:42 <oerjan> ok. because i only see a boring normal font.
03:47:47 <Sgeo> dotsies is here.
03:48:00 <Sgeo> oerjan, it's a bunch of dots
03:48:05 <Sgeo> The font is dots
03:48:07 <kmc> it's an alterative way of writing the latin alphabet where every letter is a 5-bit column of black or white dots
03:48:18 <kmc> because human vision is just a grid of pixels right
03:48:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: well so is a boring normal font
03:48:31 <kmc> it's not like the brain has dedicated hardware for recognizing lines, curves, corners, etc.
03:48:52 <kmc> ;P
03:49:02 <kmc> like, this person clearly knows nothing about vision
03:49:06 <kmc> not even the pathetic amount i know
03:49:12 <kmc> which is "i get stoned with neuroscientists occasionally"
03:49:23 <kmc> but you know, being a rails developer makes you an expert at every topic in the world
03:49:47 <Sgeo> kmc, I... guess people could treat each word the way Chinese treat chinese words?
03:49:53 <Sgeo> Or glyphs or whatever
03:49:56 <kmc> that's the idea
03:50:03 <kmc> but encoding it as pixels is still stupid
03:50:10 <kmc> han characters have lines, curves, corners, etc.
03:50:29 <kmc> so do joined arabic letters, hangul clusters, etc.
03:52:04 <Sgeo> Note: Caps and lowercase differ by a dot above the letter
03:52:13 <kmc> i would think that an attempt to revolutionize the latin alphabet should start with a thorough survey of other writing systems, preferably with psychophysical measurements from fluent users of each
03:52:30 <kmc> and also a thorough understanding of human visual processing
03:53:50 <kmc> but you know, all that research is invalid because it was performed by non-programmers
03:55:04 * kmc rage
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03:59:32 <itidus21> .:| ::. ..: |.|...
03:59:46 <itidus21> (not actually meaning anything)
04:02:33 <kmc> http://www.ccelian.com/concepca.html this is way cooler and also probably better
04:03:19 <kmc> oh yeah and the dotsies guy didn't even put any thought into assigning better dot patterns to common letters
04:03:40 <kmc> and has allegedly been working on this for 10 years
04:04:35 <kmc> and braille already exists
04:05:01 <kmc> and has real users who could tell you what's good and bad about it
04:05:04 <itidus21> kmc: well it's not at all like saying A = 65, 65 - 64 = 00001, 90 - 64 = 11010, then drawing the binary numbers as vertical stacks
04:05:19 <kmc> it is a lot like that
04:06:16 <kmc> it's not the binary counting sequence but it's another kind of regular binary sequence applied to the latin letters in order
04:08:04 * kmc rage
04:08:37 <kmc> it got a fawning article in techcrunch too
04:08:55 <pikhq> Gah, dotsies looks like a *stupid* orthographic scheme.
04:09:08 <kmc> but it was invented by a rails developer from SF!!!
04:10:54 <kmc> "Keep up the crazy innovation, Craig! It’s guys like you who aren’t afraid to push the status quo that make the world better for the rest of us."
04:11:53 <pikhq> He managed to redesign the *least bad* part of English orthography, and didn't even make it that easy to figure out.
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04:13:57 <itidus21> his design goals are absurd
04:14:15 <kmc> which ones?
04:14:53 <kmc> i would have thought you'd sympathize with this kind of crackpottery itidus21
04:16:29 <itidus21> it's tempting
04:17:04 <itidus21> but i have decided to try not to
04:17:55 <itidus21> "Dotsies is optimized for reading." this isn't clear
04:18:12 <kmc> that claim would be more credible if the author displayed any understanding of how reading works
04:18:39 <kmc> it is not a ridiculous idea to try to improve the latin alphabet and make it more optimized for reading
04:18:43 <itidus21> he's not saying it's faster
04:18:50 <itidus21> he's just saying it's optimized
04:18:53 <pikhq> Reading relies heavily on glyphs being distinctive.
04:18:56 <kmc> but you would want to start by knowing something about the field
04:19:04 <kmc> and surveying what's already out there
04:19:23 <shachaf> Aheegan.
04:19:32 <kmc> this displays the classic crackpot attitude of "i'm so much smarter than everyone else that I don't need to understand what anyone else has done"
04:19:50 <itidus21> and he's concerned with how much space is taken up by text
04:19:51 <kmc> plus the classic programmer attitude of assuming you know how something works in people because you know how it works in computers
04:20:09 <kmc> itidus21: that makes sense, the time to read something is proportional to how quickly you can move the fovea across it
04:20:18 <kmc> he does seem to know about the fovea at least
04:20:24 <kmc> whachaf?
04:20:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
04:23:09 <itidus21> one thing i like about this alphabet is that the long bits on letters like ldbh is that you can see them even in blurry text
04:23:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:24:06 <pikhq_> kmc: The Elian script there does look neat.
04:27:34 <kmc> i don't think i would have such a problem with dotsies if it was just "hey, i made this, isn't it kind of cool / weird, what do you think"
04:27:47 <kmc> but the author is so sure that it's better, and so, so ignorant of anything he would need to understand to make that claim
04:30:06 <kmc> i mean i don't *know* that he's ignorant, but there are many things conspicuously absent from that page
04:30:18 <kmc> anyway i think i have said everything i have to say on this subject
04:30:24 <kmc> but it pisses me off and so i'm disposed to keep talking
04:36:53 <Vorpal> <kmc> plus the classic programmer attitude of assuming you know how something works in people because you know how it works in computers <-- technically humans are nothing more than neural networks. Complicated ones sure, but still just neural networks
04:37:21 <Vorpal> ;)
04:37:39 <kmc> humans are just atoms man
04:37:44 <Vorpal> that too
04:37:48 <kmc> so partical physicists are experts in psychology
04:37:49 <kmc> and love
04:37:54 <kmc> particle too
04:37:55 <Vorpal> yes
04:38:13 <Vorpal> kmc, what was the actual topic though?
04:39:02 <kmc> which actual topic
04:39:36 <Vorpal> the topic from which the line I commented upon was taken
04:39:43 <Vorpal> I just read a few lines above and below
04:39:51 <Vorpal> after getting back
04:39:58 <kmc> also it's not like programmers who develop artificial neural networks have much insight into how the ANN has learned what it knows
04:40:02 <kmc> it's just a black box
04:40:12 <kmc> Vorpal: you could scroll up
04:40:16 <Vorpal> meh
04:40:25 <kmc> we were talking about http://dotsies.org
04:40:30 <Vorpal> yeah you can only really explain why ANN works for really simple ones
04:41:51 <Vorpal> the fact that there is centered text further down the page is an immediate warning that the guy doesn't know what he is talking about
04:42:02 <kmc> also it's not like ANNs have much to do with real neurons
04:42:10 <Vorpal> not going to read the rest
04:42:16 <kmc> why is centered text bad
04:42:21 <Vorpal> kmc, indeed, I was being ironic/sarcastic
04:42:26 <kmc> yeah i know
04:42:32 <kmc> i just felt like enumerating all the ways it's wrong
04:42:34 <kmc> for completeness you know
04:42:35 <Vorpal> kmc, well, it is harder to read, besides it is far too large
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04:42:47 <Vorpal> like hard to read on this 15" screen due to being so large
04:42:57 <kmc> that's true
04:43:41 <Vorpal> oh right, I didn't allow javascript
04:43:47 <Vorpal> turning that on helped a bit
04:44:06 <Vorpal> well with the size
04:44:23 <kmc> the big centered text is supposed to be in the dotsies font
04:44:31 <kmc> which would also explain why you can't read it
04:44:31 <Vorpal> it wasn't due to noscript
04:44:52 <Vorpal> when I did allow scripts it is no longer like 72 pt
04:44:54 <Vorpal> which is good
04:45:10 <Vorpal> kmc, but centered text like that is a terrible idea
04:45:23 <Vorpal> reminds me of timecube
04:45:33 <kmc> yeah
04:45:49 <kmc> there are more than a few parallels you could draw
04:46:03 <Vorpal> actually timecube isn't even properly centered
04:46:10 <Vorpal> it is centered but not in the center of the screen
04:46:12 <kmc> does he like insert spaces manually
04:46:22 <Vorpal> no the page is just too wide
04:46:25 <Vorpal> on this monitor
04:46:28 <Vorpal> that it scrolls sideways
04:46:44 <Vorpal> kmc, I'm on a laptop
04:50:21 <Vorpal> kmc, the maximally readable text is something generated by LaTeX with the microtype package btw
04:50:34 <Vorpal> both margins straight
04:50:37 <Vorpal> not too wide lines
04:51:02 <Vorpal> and yes microtype adjustments to make the text more pleasing to the eye
04:53:01 <kmc> cool
04:53:04 <kmc> i did not know about microtype
04:54:39 <kmc> wow to think all my previous latex documents had slightly ragged margins and suboptimal inter-word spacing
04:54:45 * kmc deeply embarrassed
04:55:13 <Vorpal> kmc, :D
04:55:40 <Vorpal> kmc, actually they had straight margins, it is that slightly ragged margins look optically straighter!
04:55:49 <kmc> right
04:56:12 <Vorpal> kmc, needs pdftex, doesn't work with xelatex yet afaik
04:56:16 <Vorpal> not sure about luatecx
04:56:17 <Vorpal> tex*
04:58:26 <pikhq_> kmc: Eh, most people won't notice.
04:58:48 <pikhq_> kmc: I have been accused of being some sort of freak for being able to actually consciously notice a lack of microtypography.
04:58:56 <Vorpal> heh
04:59:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I would notice if I specifically set out to check, probably not otherwise
04:59:57 <kmc> latex freak
05:00:31 <pikhq_> Not too hard.
05:00:39 <soundnfury> bah! You kids and your LaTeX! Real men use TĒX!
05:00:47 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hey are you zzo38?
05:01:01 <soundnfury> um, I don't think so...
05:01:05 <soundnfury> hey zzo38, am I you?
05:01:16 <soundnfury> If so, that should disturb us both!
05:01:27 <pikhq_> Inference suggests it's elliott.
05:01:38 <zzo38> soundnfury: I don't think you are me.
05:01:39 <pikhq_> From the mythical land of six pigs.
05:01:53 <pikhq_> Whois says otherwise.
05:02:04 <soundnfury> I don't think I can be, because iirc zzo38 likes Haskell. I flatly refuse to have an alternate personality which likes Haskell.
05:02:28 <shachaf> Haskell? MORE LIKE STUPIDSKELL
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05:03:28 <Vorpal> <pikhq_> Inference suggests it's elliott. <-- oh?
05:03:36 <Vorpal> why
05:03:42 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Just seemed like a fairly elliott-y response is all.
05:03:47 <Vorpal> well yes
05:03:57 <Vorpal> but the rest I don't think
05:04:02 <Vorpal> also he dislikes haskell
05:04:04 <zzo38> Some documents may require different TeX executables such as tex, latex, pdftex, pdflatex, xelatex, xetex, etc some may work with more than one. My TeX documents I only ensure they work in Plain TeX using the "tex" executable everywhere; someone has told me one document they got from me doesn't work with pdftex.
05:04:06 <Vorpal> that is /NOT/ elliott
05:04:10 <pikhq_> Yes.
05:04:51 <pikhq_> zzo38: Yeah, that was your thing for documenting an RPG character's story and stats through a campaign.
05:04:51 <kmc> interference suggests it's elliott
05:05:12 <shachaf> coinference
05:05:16 <zzo38> I do not know why it doesn't work with pdftex but if you require PDF format you can convert DVI to PDF afterward and also with whatever other format you need, DVI to PostScript, DVI to PCL, DVI to PNG, etc.
05:05:24 <kmc> zzo38 likes haskell but had a pile of suggested changes to the language from day 1
05:05:25 <zzo38> pikhq_: Yes, I think that was it.
05:05:36 <pikhq_> zzo38: I know it was: I'm the one who told you. :P
05:05:55 * kmc likes haskell but doesn't use it or think about it much anymore
05:05:57 <pikhq_> zzo38: Anyways, yeah, I just ran it through dvipdf.
05:06:04 <kmc> I guess that makes me one of those people
05:06:57 <zzo38> pikhq_: If your printer does not require PDF then you shouldn't require to convert it to PDF (unless you have a DVI previewer that has some problems and a PDF previewer which works better).
05:09:35 <zzo38> I have still written some more of that RPG story since you saw last, possibly. And I have finally thought about all the plan ahead what to do in next session of this game.
05:10:14 <zzo38> kmc: Did you like some of the suggestions and hate some of the others? I think that was the case of some people. But I think not all of my ideas would work in Haskell therefore we have to make up the new programming language instead.
05:11:50 <zzo38> soundnfury: Well, that is OK if you hate Haskell. I like Haskell and I like mathematics, though.
05:11:56 <kmc> zzo38: i definitely liked some of them
05:12:07 <kmc> others seemed too weird for me to figure out if i liked them or not
05:12:47 <kmc> i guess it's just that, i haven't written much code recently, and i got tired of talking about haskell if i'm not writing much code
05:12:57 <kmc> but i still intend to use haskell in the future where appropriate
05:13:23 <zzo38> I still do sometimes program in Haskell but I also program in C and so on. Yesterday I have written a 6502 assembly language program.
05:13:43 <kmc> cool, what for?
05:13:57 <kmc> the languages i use most are C, Haskell, and Python
05:14:20 <kmc> also shell script but I try not to write shell scripts with much in the way of "programming"
05:14:27 <zzo38> To test VRC7 audio by placing values in the register and then push START to send them, such as to make custom instrument so you can know what it sound like and adjust it until it is what you like.
05:14:38 <kmc> cool
05:15:42 <zzo38> This is the program code: http://sprunge.us/RDMj
05:15:43 <pikhq_> zzo38: Mostly just that I prefer to use a PDF viewer
05:16:09 <kmc> i wonder if i should do something with my shell / Python / brainfuck / COM / C / Haskell polyglot
05:16:11 <zzo38> pikhq_: Well, if that is what you prefer, then OK, I suppose
05:16:25 <kmc> it's not the most impressive polyglot or the most comprehensive, but it's concise and i like it
05:16:54 <kmc> however posting it on my blog is a bit pointlessly showoffy even for me
05:17:23 <kmc> "is there something like tumblr for code"
05:17:30 <zzo38> Instructions: LEFT/RIGHT move cursor, UP/DOWN adjust value, START to send values. Rightmost column labeled "A" means the "ST" column will be XOR by that value when START is pushed before the values are sent to the audio hardware.
05:17:56 <Vorpal> kmc, COM?
05:17:59 <Vorpal> what do you mean COM
05:18:06 <Vorpal> as in .COM?
05:18:07 <kmc> the source code is also a DOS COM file
05:18:08 <kmc> yes
05:18:11 <Vorpal> nice
05:18:16 <Vorpal> what does the program do?
05:18:29 <kmc> it prints "Hello, shell!" or "Hello, Python!" etc.
05:18:35 <Vorpal> ah
05:18:50 <kmc> i am pretty pleased with these lines:
05:18:50 <kmc> printf="#%s"
05:18:50 <kmc> exec printf %"sHello, shell!\n"
05:18:50 <kmc> print "Hello, Python!"
05:19:42 <itidus21> ponders about a conditional text file, where command line parameters are passed along with the textfile to read a particular subset of that text file based on those parameters
05:19:43 <zzo38> Do you know anything about VRC7 audio?
05:19:52 <kmc> i do not
05:20:02 <kmc> itidus21: you could do that with C preprocessor
05:20:32 <zzo38> It is using OPLL but with only six channels and the built-in instruments are different. You can only define one custom instrument at a time although it can be played on multiple channels at once.
05:21:08 <zzo38> itidus21: Perhaps use a shebang line mentioning grep?
05:21:28 <itidus21> yeah it does sound like grep
05:21:46 <kmc> it sounds more like CPP with -D parameters to me
05:21:50 <kmc> but there are plenty of ways to skin this cat
05:22:30 <kmc> i wanted to make it an AVR binary as well, but all the interesting AVR instructions contain non-ASCII characters :/
05:22:41 <kmc> when interpreted as, err, Latin-1
05:22:58 <kmc> what i mean to say is, they contain bytes above 0x7F
05:23:27 <zzo38> Can you include Z80 or 6502 codes?
05:24:21 <kmc> maybe
05:24:30 <kmc> but i would have to pick a particular platform
05:24:47 <kmc> if it's going to display text
05:24:54 <zzo38> Yes
05:25:18 <kmc> i say "DOS .COM file" because as 8086 machine code it uses DOS INT 21h calls
05:25:30 <kmc> though there are other platforms that provide those calls, i think COMBOOT might even
05:26:00 <kmc> for AVR i would probably just blink the LED on the Arduino, that being the Hello World of that particular platform
05:26:03 <kmc> but i can't even do that i think
05:27:48 <zzo38> Could you make a PRG ROM (only) of NES/Famicom that writes the text to the name table assuming the CHR ROM 0 is ASCII?
05:29:12 <pikhq_> kmc: Atari 2600 >:D
05:29:23 <zzo38> Do that too.
05:29:58 <kmc> what's the name table?
05:31:14 <zzo38> kmc: Name table is the grid of the tiles to display on the background. (I don't know why it is called a name table)
05:42:25 <zzo38> Have you ever make up a puzzle game of Pokemon Card?
05:42:32 <zzo38> Or of Magic: the Gathering?
05:46:44 <itidus21> nes graphics has a peculiar charm about it.
05:57:54 <zzo38> itidus21: Have you ever made any NES game?
05:58:05 <itidus21> no
05:58:29 <Vorpal> challenge make an interesting C/C++ polygot.
05:58:48 <Vorpal> making a polygot in general for that case is of course trivial, but how do you make an interesting one
05:58:51 <zzo38> So far I have just written one program for NES/Famicom which is used to test the VRC7 audio.
05:58:58 <zzo38> I posted the source-codes of that program above.
06:00:01 <zzo38> Who of you have and have not figure out my Pokemon Card puzzle?
06:00:06 <kmc> "For example, character literals such as 'a' are of type int in C and of type char in C++, which means that sizeof 'a' will generally give different results in the two languages"
06:00:30 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_of_C_and_C%2B%2B#Constructs_that_behave_differently_in_C_and_C.2B.2B
06:01:01 <kmc> has another interesting example where a local struct declaration shadows a global variable
06:01:22 <zzo38> kmc: Well, that is one way to test the difference of C/C++ at runtime, although normally you would test this at compile-time instead.
06:01:51 <kmc> well Vorpal just asked for an interesting one
06:02:39 <kmc> now, can you make something that's valid C and also valid Objective C, and does different things in each language
06:02:47 <itidus21> i think interesting is using c++ keywords not in c
06:02:48 <kmc> without using the preprocessor define explicitly designated for this purpose
06:03:13 <itidus21> but im kinda dumb!
06:03:19 <zzo38> I think Objective C is a strict superset of C.
06:03:33 <kmc> Vorpal: I thought for C vs C++ you could also maybe use the fact that iso646.h is (basically) implicitly included in C++
06:03:39 <Vorpal> heh
06:03:41 <zzo38> So that if it is a valid C code, then it will mean the same thing in Objective C, as far as I know.
06:03:55 <Vorpal> kmc, I was thinking syntax that would be interpreted differently
06:03:57 <Vorpal> is there any
06:05:02 <zzo38> For certain implementations it still may be possible to test Objective C at runtime in a different way.
06:09:38 <zzo38> Do you like my Pokemon Card puzzles?
06:09:53 <zzo38> Make one involving the IMAKUNI? card.
06:10:54 <zzo38> Possibly you can make a <100% win Pokemon Card puzzle, a helpmate Pokemon Card puzzle, etc.
06:12:37 <zzo38> These ones are both 100% win normal mode (not helpmate or anything else like that): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.2
06:13:07 <zzo38> However in both games you have to win on the current turn.
06:16:37 <zzo38> You might think to activate CHARMANDER [Lv12], play DARK CHARMELEON [Lv23] on CHARMANDER [Lv12], and then use the FIRE BALL attack, but that won't work, because you don't have enough energy and even if you do it only gives you a 50% chance.
06:18:49 <zzo38> Once in Pokemon Card, I played an evolution card for the sole purpose of increasing my own retreat cost. Its attacks and the number of its hitpoints were irrelevant at that time.
06:19:02 <Vorpal> !befunge98 "a".
06:19:03 <EgoBot> 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97 97
06:19:08 <Vorpal> oh right
06:19:16 <Vorpal> !befunge98 "+".@
06:19:17 <EgoBot> 43
06:19:21 <zzo38> But only once. Have you ever done anything like that?
06:23:57 <Vorpal> bbl
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06:31:13 <itidus20> i had pokemon blue in about 1998
06:34:32 <zzo38> But did you have Pokemon Card?
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06:35:19 <itidus21> no
06:36:02 <itidus21> i have never actually played a card game like yugioh, pokemon card, magic the gathering, etc
06:36:22 <zzo38> I have played all of those games.
06:38:06 <zzo38> Do you know rules of any of those game? Can you make up any Pokemon Card puzzle?
06:42:39 <itidus21> i know what pikachu looks like!
06:42:42 <zzo38> Someone told me that to make a noisy audio filter you have a minimum and maximum change between two frames and then if it is not within that range change it to that range and then try next one.
06:42:52 <zzo38> itidus21: That isn't good enough.
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06:43:43 <itidus21> he has thundershock attack and can evolve into raichu
06:43:50 <itidus21> thats about all i know about him
06:44:58 <zzo38> That is correct but not much use.
06:48:50 <itidus21> it makes for a good drinking game. "1 drink every time pikachu uses thundershock"
06:49:15 <itidus21> "1 drink every time brock's pokemon attacks him"
06:49:34 <zzo38> O, it is the TV drinking game.
06:49:39 <zzo38> I prefer card game.
06:49:43 <itidus21> i just thought it up
06:51:17 <itidus21> i am interested in dragonball z card games because there are NES/Famicom dragonball z card games
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06:51:31 <itidus21> so it interests me that i should study it one day
06:53:00 <zzo38> OK
06:56:31 <itidus21> i am not sure if they are real card games though
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07:23:46 <shachaf> 00:21 <SoupEvil> html is like php, it wasnt designed for todays usage
07:23:49 <shachaf> 00:22 <SoupEvil> its like pure C, you can programm object orientated, but it is not designed for it
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07:31:54 <itidus21> hear, hear
07:31:56 <itidus21> +1
07:32:07 <itidus21> me too
07:35:41 <shachaf> itidus21: I'm not surprised.
07:36:32 <itidus21> the wikipedeia page for hear, hear links to "+1" and "me too" thus artificially inflating my enthusiasm
07:38:46 <shachaf> monqy: Are you a cryptography expert?
07:38:53 <monqy> shachaf: maybe
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07:44:45 <itidus21> <html><head><title>...</title></head><body bgcolor="#ffffff"><h1>#include <stdio.h><br/>main(){printf("Hello, world!\n");}</h1></body></html>
07:44:57 <itidus21> so close but so far
08:33:48 <pikhq_> itidus21: Allow me to help: remove html, head, and body.
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08:41:32 <Taneb> Hello
08:41:39 <nortti> hi
08:41:42 <mroman> but after I removed html, there is no body? :(
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09:41:35 <nortti> wow. reading mccarthy's original paper of lisp I hardly recognise that language as lisp
09:54:30 <Taneb> I don't really know lisp
09:54:47 <Taneb> If I saw lisp at a party, I wouldn't recognize it
09:55:17 <zzo38> type Sto s = CodensityAsk (Store s); getSto = CodensityAsk (\(StoreT _ s) r -> r s); setSto x = CodensityAsk (\(StoreT (Identity f) _) _ -> f x); modSto x = CodensityAsk (\(StoreT (Identity f) s) _ -> f (x s)); runSto s (CodensityAsk f) = f (store Left s) Right;
09:56:00 <Taneb> I'm one of the few people who actually sees programming languages at parties, while sober
09:56:11 <zzo38> We even have: modSto f = getSto >>= setSto . f modSto f <|> modSto g = modSto (g . f)
09:56:12 <Taneb> I don't when drunk? Maybe I should investigate
09:56:39 <nortti> you see programming alanguages at parties?
09:56:53 <Taneb> Yeah, I get tired and microsleep
09:57:03 <Taneb> And dream about programming languages?
09:57:11 <zzo38> Therefore empty = modSto id
09:59:04 <nortti> also how would you not recognize lisp? (define append (lambda (x y) (if (null? x) y (cons (car x) (append (cdr x) y))))
10:00:56 <nortti> (define map (lambda (f s) (if (null? s) s (cons (f (car s)) (map f (cdr s))))))
10:01:35 <Taneb> For a start, I'm normally pretty much asleep
10:03:44 <Taneb> Damn, Data.FamilyTree.addPerson is the wrong way round for State
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11:56:15 <itidus21> is it possible to describe one idea of computation as, for every finite expression X in some given language A there is a finite set of primitive operations that will result in finite expression Y in some given language A?
12:06:14 <itidus21> disregard
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12:13:30 <zzo38> How is a boxer supposed to try to get his opponent to punch himself out?
12:19:07 <zzo38> (My brother doesn't know either.)
12:30:04 <mroman> by making him exhausted?
12:30:19 <mroman> or.
12:30:39 <mroman> they both punch at the same time
12:30:54 <mroman> and the punch deflects the punch of the opponent so that he hits himself in the face
12:30:58 <mroman> or
12:30:59 <mroman> they both punch at the same time
12:31:25 <mroman> but you punch so hard that you push his hand back into his face
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12:42:45 <zzo38> I found a secret menu in X-BIT
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13:03:36 <Taneb> Hello
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14:54:25 <mroman> In US schools get paid according to how well their students perform in national wide standardized tests?
14:54:44 <Taneb> Hello
14:54:55 <zzo38> I have figured out what (Codensity ((,) x)) does
14:54:56 <mroman> Wb Taneb
14:55:16 <Taneb> mroman, wouldn't be a vicious cycle in poorly performing schools?
14:56:46 <nortti> yeah. but supporting every school equaly is socialism!!!!!!!!!!11111111111
14:56:47 <mroman> You mean "wouldn't that be"?
14:56:56 <Taneb> mroman, yes
14:57:01 <mroman> It seems so to me, yes.
14:57:07 <mroman> It even sounds stupid to me.
14:57:13 <Taneb> I think it could be like a quadratic thingy
14:58:03 <Taneb> But asymmetric?
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15:00:24 <Taneb> zzo38, do you think I should change Data.FamilyTree.addPerson etc from FamilyTree -> (FamilyTree, PersonID) to FamilyTree -> (PersonID, FamilyTree) so it works nicer with StateT?
15:01:10 <Taneb> :t StateT
15:01:12 <lambdabot> forall s (m :: * -> *) a. (s -> m (a, s)) -> StateT s m a
15:01:48 <Taneb> :t let addPerson = undefined :: a -> (b, a) in StateT (arr addPerson)
15:01:49 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: s = (a, s)
15:01:49 <lambdabot> Expected type: s
15:01:49 <lambdabot> Inferred type: (a, s)
15:02:24 <Taneb> :t let addPerson = undefined :: a -> (b, a) in state addPerson
15:02:26 <lambdabot> forall s a. State s a
15:02:56 <Taneb> :t arr id `asTypeOf` return
15:02:58 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: b = m b
15:02:58 <lambdabot> Expected type: b -> b
15:02:58 <lambdabot> Inferred type: b -> m b
15:03:04 <Taneb> :t arr
15:03:06 <lambdabot> forall b c (a :: * -> * -> *). (Arrow a) => (b -> c) -> a b c
15:03:44 <Taneb> Hmm
15:03:49 <Taneb> Ah
15:03:56 <Taneb> :t arr id `asTypeOf` Kleisli return
15:03:57 <lambdabot> forall b (m :: * -> *). (Monad m) => Kleisli m b b
15:04:09 <Taneb> :t let addPerson = undefined :: a -> (b, a) in StateT (runKleisli $ arr addPerson)
15:04:11 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a b. (Monad m) => StateT a m b
15:06:20 <Taneb> But if I do that, I can't use IORefs as easily
15:07:32 <Taneb> @hoogle atomicModifyIORef
15:07:33 <lambdabot> Data.IORef atomicModifyIORef :: IORef a -> (a -> (a, b)) -> IO b
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15:41:07 <kmc> atomicModifyIORef is nice
15:42:42 <kmc> and it's a cool use of laziness -- a strict atomicModifyIORef would have to use heavier-weight synchronization
15:43:49 <copumpkin> ಠ_ಠ, atomicModifyMutVar# :: MutVar# s a -> (a -> b) -> State# s -> (#State# s, c#)
15:45:04 <Taneb> The point is, either I can make using State easy, or I can make using IORefs easy
15:45:30 <kmc> you should make some kind of horrible typeclass which accommodates both
15:45:38 <kmc> so that they're equally bad to use
15:45:42 <Taneb> StateT IO?
15:47:15 <Taneb> Unfortunately, the only difference between them is that the tuple is the other way round
15:47:26 <zzo38> Taneb: I think OK change it to work with StateT if you are making a new major version of that package anyways.
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15:53:21 <zzo38> Due to this IORefs etc, instead do not change it, but perhaps make up another module Data.FamilyTree.State which export the function with output in other order, that way you have compatibility too.
15:56:48 <Taneb> I'm not sure if I need compatibility
15:56:55 <Taneb> I think roughly 0 people use it
16:06:00 <zzo38> The type (Codensity ((->) x)) is also a state monad like (State x) and the function to access the state is simply (Codensity join).
16:06:48 <kmc> Taneb: StateT IO isn't a typeclass... I'm not sure what you're getting at
16:07:04 <kmc> anyway it was a not-serious bad suggestion
16:07:49 <Taneb> Heh
16:08:10 <zzo38> I think (StateT IO) is not even a valid type.
16:08:24 <kmc> nope
16:08:30 <Taneb> Sorry
16:09:40 <zzo38> Perhaps you want (StateT FamilyTree IO) or (StateT (ExtProd Globals) IO) or something like that
16:09:59 <Taneb> The former, most likely
16:10:05 <zzo38> Yes
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16:46:11 <nortti> @ping
16:46:12 <lambdabot> pong
16:47:37 <kmc> @pung
16:47:37 <lambdabot> pong
16:47:42 <kmc> @prng
16:47:43 <lambdabot> pong
16:47:47 <kmc> @ding
16:47:47 <lambdabot> pong
16:50:43 <Taneb> @pine
16:50:44 <lambdabot> pong
16:50:59 <Taneb> @piog
16:50:59 <lambdabot> pong
16:58:40 <Phantom__Hoover> @prme
16:58:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: free time
16:59:05 <Phantom__Hoover> @pzzz
16:59:06 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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17:37:02 <Taneb> I think I should add a "Handy re-exports" section in Data.FamilyTree
17:38:42 <Taneb> Data.Lens.[Strict/Lazy], Data.Lens.[Strict/Lazy].fromList (maybe), Data.Time.Calendar?
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18:05:07 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
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18:11:25 <nortti_> I am using netscape to irc
18:12:03 <kmc> nutscrape exploder
18:12:22 <nortti_> no. netscape 7.2
18:12:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
18:14:20 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:14:33 <nortti_> it is actually pretty decent browser
18:17:16 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.2/20040804]).
18:23:07 <ogrom> it was decent 10 years ago
18:23:25 <nortti> it is around the same age as ff 1
18:23:39 <nortti> it is still decent browser
18:23:57 <nortti> (compared to links2 at least)
18:23:58 <ogrom> i began using ff since version 0.7 and i know mozilla too
18:24:18 <ogrom> it was called firebird at version 0.7
18:24:18 <nortti> and?
18:24:31 <nortti> I know. I have also used it
18:24:33 <ogrom> they were decent back then
18:25:07 <nortti> well when does browser stop being decent?
18:25:11 <ogrom> if the machine is not antique, then i always upgrade
18:25:38 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:25:41 <Taneb> Hello
18:26:17 <ogrom> but i see no advantage with firefox these days.. other than it's not chrome
18:26:39 <nortti> what browser do you use then?
18:26:48 <ogrom> opera
18:27:04 <nortti> opera? has it got html5?
18:27:12 <ogrom> yes
18:27:20 <nortti> (I know opera. I have used it)
18:27:30 <nortti> since when?
18:28:00 <ogrom> i don't know.. since recently
18:28:01 <ogrom> isn't html 5 also something recent?
18:28:26 <nortti> yeah. what codecs does it support with html5 video?
18:28:41 <ogrom> i don't know.. i never ran into codec problems with it
18:28:48 <ogrom> supports everything i need
18:29:04 <pikhq> nortti: I think it's just WebM.
18:29:14 <ogrom> what i don't need, i don't just care about
18:29:17 <nortti> ok. is it still available for ppc macs?
18:29:29 <ogrom> mmno
18:29:34 <ogrom> not the recent versions
18:29:54 <ogrom> i see, nortti .. you have an antique machine
18:30:07 <nortti> it's a shame. I remeber it being kinda lightweight
18:30:09 -!- Vorpal has joined.
18:30:27 <nortti> actually the g3 is going to be upgrade for me
18:30:30 <ogrom> ppc is antique.. the last version for it was opera 8 or 9
18:30:41 <ogrom> now opera is at v 12
18:31:06 <pikhq> Last one for PPC Mac OS X was Opera 10.
18:31:10 <nortti> ppc is not antique. it is not that old either
18:31:54 <nortti> well my iBook might be but some ppc machines are just 7 years old
18:32:12 <pikhq> *7*.
18:32:36 <nortti> so? my current machine is 12 years old
18:32:54 <ogrom> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/everything-you-need-to-know-about-html5-video-and-audio/
18:33:00 <ogrom> opera 10 supported html 5
18:33:28 <pikhq> nortti: Yes, yes, gramps, *you* use something from a different geological era.
18:33:43 <kmc> computers haven't improved *that* much in the past 7 years
18:33:43 <ogrom> ppc is jurassic
18:33:46 <kmc> not compared to the 7 years prior
18:33:49 <nortti> ogrom: well if newest version is not available I'm not going to bother. tenfourfox is still updated
18:34:10 <pikhq> kmc: A 12 year old machine, on the other hand, predates XP.
18:34:34 <nortti> so?
18:35:15 <ogrom> pre-xp means antique
18:35:30 <pikhq> nortti: *So*, the average phone is a more capable device.
18:35:36 <nortti> I know
18:36:12 <ogrom> speaking about browsers, i like lynx best
18:36:26 <nortti> I can still program, irc, get new software, surf internet and play video
18:36:39 <nortti> ogrom: I prefer links2 with graphics
18:36:47 <Taneb> My oldest machine is only 11 years old
18:36:58 <ogrom> what graphics does it have? nortti
18:37:01 <Taneb> It runs Windows 98 SE for reasons I know not why
18:37:24 <pikhq> nortti: And you pay more in power for the privelege of using such an old machine than you would just *getting a new one*.
18:37:36 <nortti> ogrom: images. it runs on framebuffer, x, windows and dos
18:38:01 <ogrom> i also know about the experimental ob1 with basic graphics.. its encoding sucks
18:38:11 <nortti> pikhq: it is a laptop. and as I said I am getting a new one
18:38:15 <pikhq> (assuming you go for a low power usage machine, rather than a computing behemoth)
18:38:35 <ogrom> the encoding has to work.. my language must look good
18:38:38 <nortti> ogrom: ob1?
18:39:19 <ogrom> nortti: http://offbyone.com/offbyone/
18:40:18 <nortti> links2 seems bit more modern but on the other hand ob1 has tabs
18:41:09 <nortti> oh. it is not available for linux
18:41:48 <ogrom> i liked ob1 more when it had no tabs
18:42:04 <nortti> why?
18:42:22 <ogrom> because its interface is otherwise built that way
18:42:39 <ogrom> the tabs are pointless there
18:42:51 <ogrom> on the other hand, tabs always made sense in opera
18:43:21 <ogrom> tabs are halfway there in firefox/mozilla, but they make total sense in opera
18:43:26 <mroman> nortti: No linux port :(
18:43:30 <mroman> Else I'd bought it.
18:43:46 <nortti> it's free
18:43:56 <mroman> I know.
18:44:25 <mroman> I meant another meaning of "buy" ;)
18:45:07 <nortti> as in?
18:45:34 <Sgeo> o.O HTML 3.2
18:45:46 <nortti> yes?
18:45:56 <Sgeo> Why am I installing it
18:46:04 <nortti> no idea
18:46:09 <mroman> Sgeo: Because it rocks.
18:46:17 <mroman> HTML 3.2 is like the real HTML ;)
18:46:57 <nortti> is like? it _is_ THE real HTML
18:47:38 <kmc> old believers itt
18:48:44 <Sgeo> I'm starting to think because even Chrome is a memory hog these days
18:48:56 <nortti> use links2
18:49:14 <nortti> it is bit more modern that ob1
18:49:25 <Sgeo> o.O CSS on fark.com isn't working
18:50:10 <Sgeo> It..... doesn't redirect on 302
18:50:16 <nortti> does it have css support?
18:50:18 <Sgeo> Try going to minecraftwiki.com
18:50:29 <nortti> and is it ob1?
18:50:48 <Sgeo> Erm
18:51:01 <Sgeo> Not .com
18:57:21 <nortti> ob1 can't load gmail. it sucks
18:59:34 <nortti> Sgeo: take a look at netsurf
18:59:55 <nortti> Sgeo: you might like it. or if you need javascript try hv3
19:06:06 <Taneb> @ping
19:06:07 <lambdabot> pong
19:07:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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19:13:45 <oerjan> mumble mumble bitch and grumble
19:13:57 * oerjan is feeling shakespearean there
19:14:09 <nortti> ok
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19:17:20 <oerjan> website crash and project stumble
19:17:36 <oerjan> ^ not actually based on a current event
19:18:08 <olsner> then who was stumble if not project?
19:18:34 <olsner> ok, that's not exactly english, but then again I didn't really mean it to be
19:19:53 <kmc> THEN WHO WAS PHONE?
19:20:02 <oerjan> vem var stumblan om inte project?
19:20:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, "stublan"? What?
19:20:21 <oerjan> (s/english/swedish/)
19:20:28 <Vorpal> err "stumblan"?
19:20:40 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't know what stumble is in swedish
19:20:49 <olsner> vem var snubbla
19:20:52 <Vorpal> yeah
19:20:58 <oerjan> ah better
19:21:03 <olsner> snoo blah
19:21:14 <Vorpal> olsner, also "projekt"
19:21:30 <Vorpal> bbl food
19:21:39 <olsner> Vorpal: that's just spelling, no-one cares about that anymore :P
19:21:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't know the precise rules of how swedish adapts orthography, either :P
19:22:21 <oerjan> (no:prosjekt, but i somehow didn't feel that would be correct in swedish)
19:22:27 <olsner> the verb project would be projicera
19:22:52 <oerjan> olsner: well it was the noun from the start
19:23:20 <olsner> "sj" is almost always wrong in swedish
19:24:28 <olsner> but swedish is deprecated anyway, you should just use english nowadays
19:24:33 <oerjan> sjuttiosju sjösjuka sjömenn etc.
19:25:36 <oerjan> "sjuttiosju sköna sjuksköterskor skötte sju sjösjuka sjömän på skeppet shanghai"
19:25:46 <oerjan> that's a lot of nurses per sailor
19:25:59 <oerjan> ...probably a porn flick
19:27:03 * oerjan vaguely thought the numbers were the other way around
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19:28:27 <oerjan> sjuttiosju sjösjuka gives a lot of variation in the google hits
19:28:40 <mroman> "whence"?
19:28:57 <olsner> thence.
19:29:02 <mroman> Do they still use that?
19:29:09 * oerjan has been practicing the sje sound lately. no idea if a swede would approve of the result.
19:29:18 <olsner> I bet stephen fry uses whence a lot
19:29:40 <olsner> him and Tolkien
19:30:33 <tswett> What's the shortest way to dereference a null pointer in C? *((void*)0)?
19:30:44 <tswett> Obviously, *0 won't work.
19:30:57 * oerjan saw a reddit novelty user downvotes_whilst yesterday, he got soundly downvoted himself
19:31:23 <olsner> *(void*)0 saves a pair of parens
19:31:29 <oerjan> whilst being explained that the word is still commonly used outside the us
19:32:14 <olsner> if you have a pointer typedef somewhere that is shorter than five letters, or a global pointer that is null, that might be shorter
19:32:38 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/user/downvotes_whilst
19:34:24 <oerjan> tswett: will *(int*)0 work?
19:34:44 <olsner> other alternatives would be *NULL, or in C++ *nullptr (if I remember the name correctly)
19:35:24 <oerjan> *NULL looks like a win
19:36:25 <oerjan> even a single letter typedef won't beat that
19:37:13 <olsner> it might also be cheating
19:37:41 * oerjan doesn't know precisely why *NULL would work if *0 doesn't
19:38:54 <olsner> in C, NULL is usually a macro defined to something like (void*)0
19:40:06 <oerjan> actually, _can_ you derefence a (void*) pointer without recasting it first?
19:41:02 <Sgeo> http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics/2012/07/third-whistle-blower-confirms-obamas-participation-in-cia-jump-room-program-of-early-1980s.html
19:44:57 <Vorpal> * oerjan has been practicing the sje sound lately. no idea if a swede would approve of the result. <-- why would you need that sound?
19:45:06 <Vorpal> also I thought some dialects of Norwegian had it
19:45:27 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
19:45:29 <oerjan> Vorpal: when singing swedish sounds, of course :P
19:45:32 <oerjan> *songs
19:45:46 <olsner> you can dereference a void* if the compiler lets you, maybe it silently makes it a char pointer in order for the expression to have a value?
19:46:40 <olsner> iirc, llvm has no void type, and you need to use something like i8* instead
19:47:24 <olsner> Gregor: did you add yourself (ex pony) to the guilt list?
19:47:31 <oerjan> http://c-faq.com/ansi/voidparith.html isn't quite the same...
19:47:33 <Vorpal> <tswett> What's the shortest way to dereference a null pointer in C? *((void*)0)? <-- if you have stdef.h, stdlib.h or any other header that includes NULL somehow, I think *NULL might be shorter.
19:48:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, you sing Swedish songs?
19:48:13 <Vorpal> why on earth
19:48:18 <olsner> Vorpal: we concluded that *NULL was most likely not valid just moments ago
19:48:22 <Gregor> olsner: Yes, though I was originally “ex post facto”
19:48:25 <Vorpal> olsner, yes I saw that after
19:48:34 <olsner> Gregor: oh, ex pony is much funnier
19:48:39 <Vorpal> olsner, I did a elliott and didn't read the whole log before responding
19:48:44 * oerjan sings in the shower when no one else is around
19:48:56 <Vorpal> oerjan, Swedish songs specifically?
19:49:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:49:12 <Gregor> And when someone else is around in the shower, he does… /other/ things.
19:49:14 <oerjan> some of them yes.
19:49:35 <oerjan> Gregor: *around in the basement
19:49:39 <olsner> oerjan: which swedish songs would that be?
19:49:43 <Vorpal> I don't get why some people sing in showers, I thought that was a myth in general
19:50:12 <olsner> the bathroom is usually the room with the best acoustics, that's why
19:50:27 <Vorpal> bbs
19:50:29 <Gregor> Vorpal: I sing in the shower.
19:50:32 <Gregor> I also sing when I drive.
19:50:43 <shachaf> hoerjan
19:50:51 <shachaf> holsner, Horpal
19:51:00 <olsner> I used to sing Le Cantique de Noël (in swedish) in the shower
19:51:26 <oerjan> a bit of vreeswijk [sp?] or taube, for example. now if i just remembered the text
19:51:52 <oerjan> oh yeah helga natt i _definitely_ sing in swedish. know all the text too.
19:52:04 <olsner> not in norwegian?
19:52:23 <oerjan> olsner: nope!
19:52:46 <oerjan> i sometimes sing a little of it in french, after i learned that's the original.
19:53:11 <oerjan> jussi björling all the way, man
19:54:11 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjGnanUrZjA
19:55:34 <oerjan> <Vorpal> also I thought some dialects of Norwegian had it <-- if so i haven't heard of it
20:01:35 <olsner> oerjan: how did you come up with this idea of singing swedish songs?
20:02:05 <oerjan> olsner: my father has been a big taube fan for ages
20:03:52 <tswett> Vorpal: I sing in the shower because nobody can hear me.
20:04:05 <tswett> I *just* realized how sad that is.
20:04:59 <oerjan> also much swedish music is just part of norwegian culture. it's traditional.
20:06:29 <oerjan> (i sing norwegian and english songs too, of course. oh and i think i sang hava nagila earlier today :P)
20:07:34 <oerjan> and the chorus to kharoun kharoun, which i remembered the melody of for ages but only recently learned was armenian
20:08:04 <olsner> hmm, hava nagila, I recognize that name
20:08:22 <oerjan> olsner: it's hebrew
20:08:56 <olsner> oh, must be from some psytrance thing I recognize it then
20:08:57 <oerjan> i recall we learned several hebrew songs back in primary school
20:09:16 <Taneb> "Taneb" has a hebrew etymology, but it's largely accidental
20:15:55 <olsner> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDBnGaB-iKk apparently
20:18:40 <oerjan> olsner: agh! (closes after 20 seconds)
20:18:55 <oerjan> */me closes
20:19:16 <oerjan> that was painful XP
20:24:10 <olsner> oerjan :D
20:24:41 <fizzie> Oh no, an oerjan/olsner discussion. (It's so problematical nickwise.)
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20:25:19 <tswett> while( x --> 0 ) // x goes to 0
20:26:14 <olsner> so now they're in some kind of deep-sea "high" speed "car" (submersible) chase
20:26:37 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:26:45 <olsner> but afaict they already dropped the nuke somewhere on the sea floor, so I can't tell why they're doing this
20:27:06 <Phantom__Hoover> Are you watching something?
20:27:33 <olsner> no, I'm just making this up
20:28:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:28:54 <Vorpal> <oerjan> (i sing norwegian and english songs too, of course. oh and i think i sang hava nagila earlier today :P) <-- nagila being?
20:29:12 <olsner> Vorpal: it will be explained a few lines after that one
20:29:33 <Vorpal> right
20:29:35 <Vorpal> saw it
20:29:56 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Oh no, an oerjan/olsner discussion. (It's so problematical nickwise.) <-- indeed
20:30:18 <Taneb> It's better than oklopol/oklofok
20:30:49 <Vorpal> <olsner> but afaict they already dropped the nuke somewhere on the sea floor, so I can't tell why they're doing this <-- who? what?
20:30:58 <Vorpal> oh right, explained a bit below
20:31:05 <olsner> they, the nuke
20:31:23 <Vorpal> olsner, what are you actually watching? Or are you making the thing up as you said?
20:31:47 <olsner> I think I missed the part where they explain why they took the nuke in the first place, it's not like the US has a shortage on them
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20:31:57 <olsner> Vorpal: The Abyss
20:32:04 <Vorpal> fair enough
20:32:07 <Vorpal> never heard of it
20:32:22 <olsner> it's fairly famous I think
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20:44:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: Vorpal "“Hava Nagila” (הבה נגילה) (lit. Let us rejoice) is a Hebrew folk song that has become a staple of band performers at Jewish weddings and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs."
20:45:19 <oerjan> so the "hava" isn't swedish either :)
20:45:50 * oerjan knows not why he duplicated Vorpal
20:47:39 * oerjan realized "o helga nat" is probably _the_ song that got him started on trying to pronounce swedish properly.
20:47:59 <fizzie> Next time, try to write it "Vorpal²" for economicalness.
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20:48:38 <oerjan> *natt
20:48:49 <oerjan> not so much with the _spelling_ alas
20:49:01 -!- oonbotti has joined.
20:49:34 <oerjan> fizzie: ² is a pain to type :(
20:50:02 <Gregor> oerjan: ¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁰
20:50:13 <olsner> I'm not sure Jussi Björling speaks swedish the same way swedes do nowadays
20:50:31 <zzo38> Once I mentioned on Haskell program about making a program for astronomy/astrology and they said they cannot be combined. But actually even at least one astronomer has said he would find it useful combined.
20:50:31 <oerjan> olsner: well perhaps not :P
20:50:41 <kmc> compose ^ 2
20:53:07 <oerjan> kmc: you and your compose keys. my norwegian keyboard setting seems to be based on "include absolutely nothing extra, even if that means not using most key combinations for anything."
20:53:08 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:53:20 <kmc> but you can set up a compose key can't you?
20:53:24 <kmc> it's super useful
20:53:32 <oerjan> in windows xp? no idea.
20:53:39 <kmc> oh well that's a different matter
20:53:53 <kmc> the idea comes from X although someone has probably tried to implement it for Windows at some point
20:54:50 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah
20:55:06 <Vorpal> * oerjan realized "o helga nat" is probably _the_ song that got him started on trying to pronounce swedish properly. <-- "natt"
20:55:12 <Vorpal> right you said that below
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20:55:29 <Vorpal> <oerjan> fizzie: ² is a pain to type :( <-- altgr-shift-2
20:55:34 <oerjan> i mean, i have ã and õ, but _not_ ~+ eiu
20:55:44 <oerjan> Vorpal: you'd think, but no
20:55:53 <fizzie> PuTTY has I think built-in compose key support. And I'm sure someone's fiddled together a Windows thing, but I don't know of one.
20:55:58 <Vorpal> <kmc> compose ^ 2 <-- doesn't work for me
20:56:05 <olsner> o helga NAT
20:56:09 <Vorpal> I guess becuase my ^ is a dead key
20:56:38 <Vorpal> olsner, something about a holy router is that?
20:57:12 <olsner> maybe it should be "oh holey NAT"
20:57:44 <Vorpal> in English you mean?
20:57:49 <oerjan> minute cretins
20:58:06 <Vorpal> oerjan, what?
20:58:16 <Vorpal> also you two have too confusingly similar nicks
20:58:18 <oerjan> Vorpal: just punning on the french original, nothing to see here...
20:58:31 <Vorpal> oh I see
20:58:51 <olsner> Vorpal: one is me, the other is oerjan, I have no trouble telling the difference
20:59:00 <Vorpal> of course not
20:59:07 <oerjan> olsner: we should talk more
21:00:00 <Vorpal> I realise both of you, me and fizzie all have the same nick length
21:00:12 <Vorpal> now we just need kmc to shut up XD
21:00:47 -!- ais523 has quit.
21:00:50 <olsner> oerjan: indeed, I think we should also start talking to ourselves more
21:00:54 <fizzie> There goes another six-letter name.
21:01:05 -!- nooga has joined.
21:01:07 <nortti> eho?
21:01:16 <nortti> *who`
21:01:21 <fizzie> nortti: ais523.
21:01:25 <Vorpal> nortti, you are allowed to speak, your nick has 6 letters
21:01:25 <nortti> oh
21:01:30 <oerjan> there appears to be a significant correlation between 6 letters and nordic
21:01:34 <fizzie> Possibly there should be a channel mode to enforce nick lengths. (It'd pad the too short ones, and intelligently shorten the long ones.)
21:01:39 <Vorpal> oerjan, hm possibly
21:01:43 <Vorpal> well my old nick was longer
21:01:47 <olsner> "nordic" is also 6 letters ... COINCIDENCE?
21:01:54 <oerjan> DUN DUN DUN
21:02:05 <fizzie> fungot: Congratulations on having the right number of characters.
21:02:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, the report insists on the need to take socioeconomic aspects into account, in some cases, must we make it possible to offer the same guarantees as the tests carried out on fnord, but i also feel, however, where it would be those who are listening to us.
21:02:36 <oerjan> those poor fnords, always the guinea pigs
21:02:40 <Vorpal> heh
21:02:44 <olsner> ok, the movie took a good turn now, the aliens showed up and took someone on board the mother ship
21:02:55 <Vorpal> heh
21:03:53 <nortti> what movie?
21:03:59 <olsner> but they should've gone there like two and a half hours ago
21:04:03 <Vorpal> nortti, the one olsner was watching
21:04:22 <nortti> olsner: what movie are you watching?
21:04:52 <olsner> oh, now they're doing the humanity on trial thing
21:05:01 <olsner> nortti: The Abyss
21:05:39 <Vorpal> <olsner> oh, now they're doing the humanity on trial thing <-- so cliché
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21:07:28 <fizzie> I think I've heard of that thing. Doesn't it have something to do with water?
21:08:52 <olsner> so it's 2.5h of Das Boot with deep sea diving and submersible chases followed by bits and pieces of the first episode of TNG
21:09:06 * oerjan thinks he saw part of it once
21:09:38 <fizzie> There was a CGI water thing-thing.
21:10:39 <Vorpal> thing-thing
21:11:27 <zzo38> Let's play chess with I don't know!
21:11:39 <olsner> one thing I liked though: when the civilian divers met the SEAL divers they didn't have an hour of side quests all about overcoming their differences and proving that each group has something to contribute
21:13:57 <zzo38> Why should there be a channel mode to affect nick lengths? I think that is a bad and useless idea.
21:14:39 <zzo38> Pad the names yourself in messages and/or client configuration setting if you want it
21:15:13 <olsner> would you like to be known as zzo388 or zzo338?
21:16:02 <fizzie> Ah, but the point is that everyone would behave like one big happy family if the artificial divisor of nick length weren't there. Currently there's e.g. a state of bitter war between all "fivers" and the "six club", I believe.
21:16:27 <fizzie> (This is all not true.)
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21:17:16 <zzo38> olsner: "zzo38 " so it has a space at the end
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21:22:42 <olsner> maybe I should just keep going and watch the rest of TNG again
21:27:14 <Vorpal> <olsner> one thing I liked though: when the civilian divers met the SEAL divers they didn't have an hour of side quests all about overcoming their differences and proving that each group has something to contribute <-- of course, it was a movie, not an RPG
21:28:30 <olsner> movies do that *all the time* ... often half the movie is about two groups starting out hating but growing to trust each other in the face of adversity
21:28:36 <Vorpal> heh
21:28:47 <Vorpal> I guess I don't watch all that many movies
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21:29:56 <fizzie> olsner: If the side quest about overcoming the differences is to kill 30 sea slugs, though, then it might be a RPG instead.
21:31:05 <olsner> the standard operating procedure would be for the seals to be all "puny civilians, we eat people like you for breakfast" and the other ones to be "you stupid jarheads, this diving stuff is complicated and we're experts"
21:31:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, no that would be an MMORPG
21:31:19 <Vorpal> Any decent single player RPG wouldn't do that
21:31:21 <olsner> but then some calamity happens and they are forced to work together, and then they can continue the movie
21:32:04 <Vorpal> olsner, so what did this movie do instead?
21:32:06 <zzo38> Why does edwardk on and then quit in a short time later?
21:32:21 <kmc> Vorpal: what? single player RPGs frequently have some "find all the stars" side quest
21:32:25 <kmc> usually optional
21:32:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, you forgot a verb there
21:32:32 <kmc> maybe you don't like those and so they aren't "decent"
21:32:40 <kmc> no true scotsman would play such a game
21:32:46 <Vorpal> kmc, can't remember any such that I played recently
21:33:15 <fizzie> A single-player RPG could have a fetch quest there instead.
21:33:17 <Vorpal> let me see, which RPGs have I played recently.... bastion, witcher 2, uh... yeah that is about it recently
21:33:44 <zzo38> Play game "No True Scotsman"
21:33:58 <Vorpal> sure oblivion has the nirnroot quest, and skyrim had the crimson nirnroot quest. Fetch quests indeed.
21:34:07 <Vorpal> haven't played either game for a long time though
21:34:21 <olsner> Vorpal: the head civilian was like "btw, this is our boat, I built it and I call the shots" and the SEALs were like "cool, btw we got some extra diving toys, wanna see?"
21:34:39 <Vorpal> olsner, sounds unrealistic though
21:36:55 <olsner> maybe the seals just played nice because they wanted to be set up the bomb
21:37:51 <Vorpal> olsner, that sounded grammatically wrong
21:38:18 <olsner> afaik it was
21:38:32 <Vorpal> so what did you actually mean
21:39:11 <olsner> nm, I don't think it makes sense in the plot either
21:39:48 <Vorpal> fair enough
21:40:14 <Vorpal> olsner, so there are plot holes?
21:43:16 <olsner> probably, not sure
21:45:37 <tswett> Vorpal: you think oerjan and olsner have confusingly similar nicks? http://i.imgur.com/V4m7M.png
21:45:44 <olsner> but plot holes generally don't bother me
21:46:28 <zzo38> Why are they different colors?
21:50:01 <tswett> zzo38: so I can tell them apart more easily.
21:50:13 <nortti> soundnfury: is you lisp implementation available somewhere? also will it use lexical or dynamic typing?
21:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what *are* you watching, again?
21:50:26 <zzo38> O, so you put those colors on there yourself.
21:50:39 <tswett> Well, the colors are automatically chosen.
21:50:51 <zzo38> How?
21:51:13 <tswett> Some simple algorithm on the characters in the nick.
21:51:23 <tswett> I think it just takes the sum of all the characters mod 13, or something.
21:51:58 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: not watching it anymore, but The Abyss
21:52:37 <olsner> (humanity passed the trial due to the protagonist's message of love to his wife, everyone lived happily ever after)
21:53:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oh good
21:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> how did aliens manage to get established in a trench and start setting tests without establishing the human reproductive cycle first
21:54:25 <oerjan> nortti: s/typing/scoping/, me thinks
21:54:42 <nortti> yeah
21:55:03 <nortti> lexical typing would be interesting concept
21:55:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, your nick is to long, more than 6 letters
21:55:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Hoover.
21:55:37 <oerjan> Vorpal: it's ok he's a true scotsman.
21:55:42 <Vorpal> Hoover++
21:55:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh okay
21:56:06 <Hoover> Does that mean I can go back?
21:56:10 <Vorpal> sure
21:56:11 <Hoover> This account's registered.
21:56:16 <Vorpal> oh well, go back then
21:56:20 <oerjan> no. once you go scot, you cannot go back.
21:56:45 <Vorpal> Hoover, you could be Phanto I guess?
21:56:59 -!- Hoover has changed nick to Phanto.
21:57:22 <Vorpal> but on the other hand, you are not from a Nordic country, so I guess it is okay
21:57:31 <Vorpal> oklopol however has an issue
21:57:49 <Vorpal> and so does FireFly
21:57:55 <Vorpal> both 7 chars
21:58:01 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
21:58:27 <Phanto> http://what-if.xkcd.com/
21:58:27 <FireFly> what's wrong with seven characters?
21:58:27 <olsner> oklpol or oklopl should be fine though
21:58:31 <Phanto> Oh wow Munroe started doing something worthwhile.
21:58:38 -!- Phanto has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
21:58:41 <olsner> or oklokl
21:59:09 <Vorpal> FireFly, because fizzie, Vorpal, olsner, oerjan and fungot are all 6 chars, and all from a Nordic country.
21:59:11 <fungot> Vorpal: i am sure this will be included in the debate by december and that you will see when we present them next year to stimulate more innovative forms of work and problems involving the working methods and organisation of pension and social security payments, in so far as to say that a shipyard wishes to reduce noise levels and is not open to the examination of petitions always depends on an adequate presence of human resour
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22:00:38 <oerjan> only fungot has a clear perspective on this
22:00:39 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, on a point of order. you will understand that i cannot speak about the annex to the legislation on the reduction in staffing levels, the existence of technological needs which justify the adaptations and specific measures to end this round of budgetary framing, to forget that this european educational space is a notion which must be defined now.
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22:00:46 <nortti> should I implemen't if, cond or both?
22:00:53 <Vorpal> nortti, in what language
22:00:58 <nortti> lis
22:01:01 <olsner> nortti: yes, definitely
22:01:21 <nortti> olsner: yes to what?
22:01:54 <oerjan> use case instead
22:02:03 <nortti> never
22:02:04 <oerjan> lisp needs more pattern matching
22:02:13 <nortti> why?
22:03:17 <oerjan> ...because after doing haskell, using null, car and cdr to decompose lists starts looking primitive.
22:03:38 <nortti> okay
22:04:05 <nortti> how should I implement this pattern matching?"
22:05:24 <oerjan> as a macro, of course, this _is_ lisp isn't it.
22:05:34 <nortti> yes
22:05:48 * oerjan may not have thought this very through, although he assumes someone has already done this.
22:06:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, <Phanto> http://what-if.xkcd.com/ <-- that site is awesome
22:07:38 <oerjan> i was thinking something like (case x ((`(tag ,@z) ...) ...)) to steal scheme's quasiquoting in reverse
22:08:12 <nortti> what does ` do?
22:08:52 <oerjan> as an expression, `(tag ,@z) is equivalent to (cons 'tag z)
22:09:03 <nortti> oh
22:09:17 <oerjan> ` starts a quasiquotation and , interpolates, ,@ interpolates a list
22:10:22 <oerjan> so as a pattern it would match if (eq? (car x) 'tag) and bind z to (cdr x) in the following ...
22:11:10 <oerjan> if you just wanted to match with a constant pattern, you could use ' instead
22:11:32 <nortti> hmm. that sounds kinda interesting but bit hard to implement
22:11:59 <oerjan> there's already that setf thing in CL, i think, which sounds like similar work
22:12:12 <oerjan> although different
22:12:23 * oerjan doesn't actually know all of common lisp, mind you
22:18:35 <nortti> well common lisp include everything and three different kinds of kitchen sinks
22:19:05 * oerjan should maybe check if CL _has_ pattern matching
22:21:37 <oerjan> http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-match/doc/clmatch-api.htm
22:32:53 <nortti> well back to the original question: if, cond or both
22:33:13 <Vorpal> nortti, case
22:33:24 <Vorpal> ;)
22:33:26 <nortti> I'm not implemeting case
22:33:38 <oerjan> it seems like racket's match library does precisely what i thought with ` (but also has many other pattern types)
22:33:49 <oerjan> http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/match.html
22:33:53 <Vorpal> nortti, cond then, and implement if as a macro using cond
22:33:53 <nortti> lis is meant to be simple lisp dialect
22:34:02 <nortti> ok
22:34:25 <Vorpal> nortti, in scheme I always found cond nicer to use
22:34:53 <Vorpal> but then I'm used to the erlang style if, which is basically a cond
22:35:03 <Vorpal> actually it is a case
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22:52:47 <elliott> ^rainbow are you sure
22:52:48 <fungot> are you sure
22:53:03 <olsner> oh my god elliott is here
22:53:05 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
22:53:22 <oerjan> darn you spoke and scared him away
22:53:33 <olsner> sorry :(
22:56:41 <Vorpal> sure about what
22:56:48 <Vorpal> hm
22:57:09 <oerjan> about rainbows!
22:57:11 <Vorpal> olsner, oerjan: we need more esolang discussions if we are to get elliott back I guess
22:57:16 <Vorpal> if we want that
22:57:47 <olsner> is #esoteric about esolangs?
22:57:48 <oerjan> Vorpal: nah i told him once that the channel was currently on topic and he said it didn't matter
22:58:03 <oerjan> (not in those exact words)
22:58:52 <nortti> could someone explain to me how label worked in mcCarthys original lisp eval?
22:59:54 <oerjan> nortti: hm, is that a label for a goto? i _very_ vaguely recall those were only inside proc's or something
23:00:17 <nortti> no. it is like define
23:00:45 <nortti> also what language are you talking about?
23:01:03 <nortti> lisp doesn't have goto or procs
23:02:33 <oerjan> ...i distinctly vaguely recall reading about a lisp form which i think was named proc and which allowed for spaghetti goto programming of the list of expressions inside
23:06:32 <olsner> distinctly vaguely :)
23:07:09 <oerjan> very much so
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23:48:12 <nortti_> can anyone recommend me a simple shell?
23:49:57 <nortti_> (or way to build staticaly linked heirloom-sh)
2012-07-16
00:19:26 <Vorpal> nortti_, ash
00:19:49 <Vorpal> available in busybox
00:19:55 <nortti_> which version?
00:20:08 <Vorpal> nortti_, the busybox one
00:20:13 <Vorpal> I don't know any other version
00:20:18 <nortti_> (I am not going to include bb in my distro)
00:20:24 <Vorpal> eh
00:20:55 <nortti_> I'm going to use toybox
00:21:21 <nortti_> (+sash for some bits currently)
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02:30:52 <MDuck> That's odd, I thought there was a language up somewhere that was more of a circuit diagram specification, and basically had a paragraph of description and an imbedded image of a diagram, but I can't find it on the wiki.
02:30:55 -!- MDuck has changed nick to MDude.
02:32:09 <MDude> Maybe it was on another site and/or only appeared in a very realistic dream.
02:34:19 <oerjan> i think there are at least a couple of those
02:34:58 <MDude> There are a few based on circuits, but I didn't see any wuite like what I thought I saw earlier.
02:35:22 <oerjan> circute is one
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02:36:26 <oerjan> Sir. Cut.
02:36:33 <MDude> Yeah, but that's another one that was represented in text. For some reason I remember a page somewhere that has a big old image file on it.
02:36:38 <oerjan> and funciton is a recent one, that is quite pretty
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02:40:26 * oerjan tries to find the recent edit he is thinking of
02:42:43 <oerjan> MDude: what about Ziim?
02:43:22 <oerjan> that has lots of embedded images
02:44:06 <MDude> Nah, it was specifically something that was fairly pixilated with a lot of brown wire things.
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02:44:56 <MDude> Anyway, I'm not entire sure I need to find it aside from being curious about a thing I'm pretty sure I saw.
02:46:03 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Cvlemar maybe?
02:46:19 <MDude> I mostly just wanted to eventually use an L-System/string rewriting system to quickly make huge complicated circuits that maybe do something interesting.
02:47:18 <oerjan> are you sure the wires were "brown"?
02:47:43 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=6 isn't that large
02:47:48 <MDude> Copper-looking anyway. At least I think, with each pixel representing a cell.
02:47:50 <oerjan> (all images)
02:48:09 <oerjan> you aren't just thinking of langton's ants?
02:48:22 <MDude> If I wasn't asleep and dreaming the whole thing, I could ahve at least been very tired at the time.
02:48:30 <oerjan> which aren't really an esolang
02:48:38 <oerjan> or wireworld
02:48:41 <MDude> I dunno, I think I read that it was a tool for making esoteric hardware.
02:48:52 <tswett> Hm. I suspect that Attempto Controlled English can be used as a programming language.
02:48:58 <MDude> I guess I should look specifically for that term.
02:50:10 <tswett> I'm not sure if it can quite express everything we'd want to express, though.
02:51:08 <tswett> Here's a plain-English description of ordered pairs: "Every ordered pair has a first part and a second part. For all X and Y, there is an ordered pair whose first part is X and whose second part is Y. For all ordered pairs A and B, if A's first part is B's first part and A's second part is B's second part, then A is B."
02:51:41 <tswett> ACE definitely *has* quantifiers, but I don't know if they can get as sophisticated as "for all X and Y".
02:52:09 <MDude> You mean the possibly-existant hardware description language, or using L-systems?
02:52:37 <tswett> Apart from that, it seems like you can write mathematics in ACE.
02:52:42 <MDude> Oh wait, never,ind, you meant something else intirely.
02:52:47 <MDude> *entirely
02:52:51 <tswett> The best thing about Attempto Controlled English is that its name looks like a typo for "attempt to control English".
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02:56:41 <MDude> Do you think Attempto Controlled English as a language might work a bit like ORK?
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02:59:45 <MDuck> And then I disconected from the cable falling out, probably right after or even before the last thing I said.
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03:05:15 <oerjan> eek he's incremented beyond
03:05:49 <MDude> :O
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03:14:28 <kmc> itidus2012
03:14:30 <kmc> the mayans warned us
03:15:45 <oerjan> it 'id us (in)
03:18:58 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>>++>--<<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:19:05 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 40.2
03:19:50 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:19:52 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.0
03:20:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:20:11 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 38.0
03:20:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:20:24 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.0
03:21:07 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6>--<<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:21:10 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.4
03:21:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6>-->++<<<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:21:30 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 40.6
03:21:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust 3pac >+>->+>->+>->+>(-)*6>--<<(+)*6<(-)*6<(+)*6<(-)*15<(+)*15<(-)*20<(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*15>(-)*15>>>>>>(>[((-)*3([+{(+)*35[-][+]}[-]])%6(+)*2>)*2((+)*3([-{(-)*40[+][-]}[+]])%6(+)*2>)*18](+)*2)*21
03:21:38 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_3pac: 41.4
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03:25:31 <madbr> haha someone is giving the worst linux audio slander
03:25:33 <madbr> <virt> MickRip: that's because no actual musicians use linux, only college kids with laptops, and autistic neckbeards who are obsessed with sheet music typography
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03:29:39 <kmc> haha
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04:47:38 <zzo38> edwardk: Is (Codensity ((->) x)) like a (State x) monad?
04:47:52 <edwardk> yes
04:48:00 <edwardk> there is even a good reason ;)
04:49:07 <zzo38> And then I think to read the state would be (Codensity join)?
04:49:42 <edwardk> probably, i don't usually write it that way
04:49:51 <edwardk> the motivation for it is
04:49:52 <edwardk> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/kan-extensions/2.7/doc/html/Data-Functor-KanExtension.html#v:ranToComposedAdjoint
04:50:07 <edwardk> where h = g = (->) e
04:50:30 <edwardk> so it really is state ;)
04:50:42 <edwardk> its just another way to compose the adjunction that gives rise to state
04:50:43 <zzo38> I just figure out by myself it is like state monad; but, always in mathematics that is what happen many people can figure out the same or similar kind of things independently
04:51:08 <edwardk> sure. just giving a theoretical justification for why it has the properties of state
04:51:14 <zzo38> OK
04:52:38 <zzo38> I have also figured out the monad it is like a state monad but instead of having return value and state value, it has a return value or a state value, not both. If you have >>= then whatever on the right if the left is a return value to read the return value, while <|> is reading the state value from the left on the right.
04:52:48 <zzo38> In my program it is called (CodensityAsk (Store x))
04:53:21 <edwardk> i still have no idea what that is supposed to be ;)
04:53:26 <edwardk> i'm just on for a few minutes though
04:53:30 <zzo38> Does this have a meaning too or not or you don't know?
04:53:41 <edwardk> it means nothing to me
04:53:46 <zzo38> What do you have no idea what that is supposed to be?
04:53:56 <zzo38> It is what I described and it is achieved for free.
04:55:12 <zzo38> What parts did you not understand?
04:56:36 <edwardk> its not that i don't understand it its that it doesn't strike me as fundamental in any way shape or form
04:56:58 <edwardk> i can mash a bunch of crap together and make a data type, but without a motivation for it, i tend to be disinclined to do so ;)
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04:57:21 <zzo38> Well, it is not completely fundamental, but it is not as messy as it seem at first.
04:58:06 * spirity can't set up his mail server to forward emails to save his life.forwarding
04:58:11 <oerjan> itt: zzo38 out-abstracts edwardk so much that he flees
04:58:13 <spirity> -forwarding (????)
04:58:18 -!- spirity has changed nick to kallisti.
04:58:27 <zzo38> oerjan: Is that how they work?
04:58:52 <oerjan> sorry, i cannot answer that, although if you keep asking i _might_ flee too.
04:58:54 <zzo38> I am not sure for that to be a reason.
04:59:07 <zzo38> oerjan: Why?
04:59:25 <oerjan> because i'm out-abstracted, of course...
04:59:59 * oerjan has less patience with category theory these days.
05:05:38 <kallisti> I'm running out of patience with email servers...
05:08:18 <itidus21> i'm running out of patients at the clinic
05:09:15 <coppro> I'm running out of pay shuns to perform
05:11:51 <itidus21> i'm sure that what i just said could have been a good joke, but it's not
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05:44:05 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/ZbIB
05:44:09 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.0
05:49:24 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/GZMV
05:49:27 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 58.0
05:50:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/XYWZ
05:50:38 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 59.5
05:51:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/JQYR
05:51:59 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.4
05:55:42 * quintopia hires coppro to perform a shun
05:55:52 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/AJKZ
05:55:55 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.1
05:56:02 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/JQYR
05:56:05 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.4
05:56:38 <coppro> quintopia: thanks, this will last me another week!
05:56:50 <Vorpal> <oerjan> because i'm out-abstracted, of course... <-- shouldn't you be sleeping this time of the day?
05:59:26 <itidus21> tolerance for abstraction correlates strongly with the time since you last had a good full sleep
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06:02:15 <coppro> itidus21: in which direction?
06:02:54 <itidus21> conversely, the longer it has been since you had a good sleep can result in increased heart rate, lowered blood pressure, impairment of short-term and working memory, psychomotor coordination, and concentration
06:03:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: NOT QUITE).
06:04:41 <itidus21> joke
06:07:02 <coppro> itidus21: and what does this have to do with abstraction?
06:07:07 <coppro> I demand you explain it with colimits
06:20:22 <itidus21> a = b = (->) c, (Abc d), (Xyz ((-> a))
06:21:07 <coppro> insufficient
06:21:39 <madbr> wonder if you could rig up a svn to do turing complete calculation
06:21:50 <itidus21> which is infact, h = g = (->) e, (State x), (Codensity ((->) x)) in disguise
06:22:05 <coppro> ah
06:22:12 <coppro> and where is the colimit
06:22:17 <itidus21> i don't know
06:22:18 <coppro> madbr: it's called a hook
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08:21:51 <soundnfury> nortti: zx-lisp isn't yet available anywhere, no. Also it will be dynamically typed
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09:11:43 <Taneb> Hello
09:17:06 <itidus21> http://9gag.com/gag/4754020
09:20:29 <shachaf> kmc: #haskell-* is lamenting your absence.
09:21:42 <Taneb> @djinn (a -> r -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b
09:21:43 <lambdabot> f a b c = a (b c) c
09:22:26 <shachaf> @@ @pl @djinn (a -> r -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b
09:22:26 <lambdabot> f = flip flip id . liftM2
09:22:44 <coppro> that looks awfully similar to the (r ->) comonad, really
09:22:58 <shachaf> (r ->) is a comonad?
09:23:04 <coppro> no wait
09:23:06 <shachaf> How does that work?
09:23:22 <mroman> @djinn (m a) -> (m a -> m b) -> m b
09:23:22 <lambdabot> f a b = b a
09:23:43 <coppro> shachaf: it's the dual of the (-> r) monad
09:23:53 <mroman> @@ @pl @djinn (m a) -> (m a -> m b) -> m b
09:23:53 <lambdabot> f = flip id
09:24:29 <coppro> shachaf: apparently you also need r to be a monoid
09:24:45 <shachaf> coppro: coreturn :: (r -> a) -> a?
09:25:04 <shachaf> Ah, if r is a monoid then you can give it mempty?
09:25:30 <coppro> yeah
09:25:52 <coppro> @src Comonad ((->)m)
09:25:53 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
09:25:57 <shachaf> What's the rest of the definition?
09:26:00 <coppro> bah, wasn't sure that would work
09:26:03 <coppro> duplicate f m = f . mappend m
09:26:04 <coppro> extract f = f mempty
09:26:24 <shachaf> Hm.
09:27:12 <coppro> duplicate is (r -> a) -> r -> r -> a
09:28:07 <coppro> sadly, Taneb's r is in the wrong place to work in the comonad
09:28:17 <Taneb> I was going for the monad
09:28:43 <Taneb> Monoid m => ((->) m) is a comonad
09:29:04 <Taneb> @src ((->) r) (>>=)
09:29:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. I am sorry.
09:29:12 <Taneb> @src (>>=) ((->) r)
09:29:12 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
09:29:15 <Taneb> :(
09:29:29 <coppro> Taneb: your r is /definitely/ in the wrong place for a monad
09:29:37 <Taneb> :t (=<<)
09:29:39 <lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
09:29:52 <Taneb> Replace m with r ->
09:30:02 <Taneb> You get (a -> r -> b) -> (r -> a) -> r -> b
09:30:15 <coppro> yeah, but (r ->) isn't a monad
09:30:23 <Taneb> ...yes it is
09:30:43 <coppro> really?
09:30:47 <Taneb> Ye
09:30:48 <Taneb> s
09:31:03 <coppro> are you sure you aren't confusing it with (-> r)?
09:31:16 <Taneb> > do {x <- (\r -> 10), return x + 1)} 7
09:31:17 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `,'
09:31:22 <Taneb> > do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1)} 7
09:31:23 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
09:31:27 <Taneb> > do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1} 7
09:31:28 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `7'
09:31:35 <Taneb> :t do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1)}
09:31:37 <lambdabot> parse error on input `)'
09:31:40 <Taneb> :t do {x <- (\r -> 10); return x + 1}
09:31:42 <lambdabot> forall t b. (Num b, Monad ((->) t), Num (t -> b)) => t -> b
09:31:44 * coppro applauds
09:31:45 <Taneb> :?
09:32:52 <Taneb> f >>= k = \ r -> k (f r) r
09:32:59 <Taneb> Control.Monad.Instances
09:33:53 <coppro> where?
09:34:08 <Taneb> In base?
09:34:16 <coppro> no, where in the library?
09:34:20 <Taneb> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/base/4.5.1.0/doc/html/src/Control-Monad-Instances.html
09:34:26 <Taneb> Near the top
09:34:35 <coppro> that's (-> r)
09:34:43 <Taneb> That's ((->) r)
09:34:47 <Taneb> Which is (r ->)
09:35:00 <coppro> oh man i fail so hard tonight
09:35:04 * coppro goes off to sleep
09:35:08 <Taneb> :)
09:35:20 <Taneb> ^ cheery-up smile
09:35:23 * nortti just woke up
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09:47:38 <nortti> soundnfury: I meant lexical or dynamical scoping
09:48:06 <soundnfury> um, I don't think it has scoping at all
09:48:24 <soundnfury> as soon as something's SETted, it's globally in scope
09:49:31 <nortti> but I meant like in (def foo (bar)) ((lambda x (foo) baz) if x visible in bar?
09:50:36 <soundnfury> hang on, are we (here) talking about ZX-LISP, or the lisp-like markup language?
09:50:39 <shachaf> coppro: No, (r ->) is a monad.
09:50:47 <nortti> zx-lisp
09:50:51 <shachaf> Ah, you said that.
09:50:55 <soundnfury> right
09:52:46 <soundnfury> so something like (set foo (x x)) ((lambda x (foo) baz). That's a syntax error, you've got too many (
09:52:49 <soundnfury> what did you intend?
09:53:27 <soundnfury> ((lambda x foo) baz)?
09:53:56 <nortti> I mean like if function foo has function call to function bar does bar see foo's variables
09:54:08 <soundnfury> in which case, (set foo (x x)) ((lambda x foo) baz) would produce (baz baz)
09:54:27 <nortti> yes
09:54:42 <soundnfury> yeah basically when you SET something, it goes on the variable-list, which is a list of conses ("name", pointer-to-value)
09:55:01 <soundnfury> and then any name is only dereferenced when it's encountered
09:55:12 <nortti> okay
09:56:57 <soundnfury> so (lambda x foo) will temporarily bind x to the lambda in some way (I think by setting a flag on the cons to say "this is a lambda, not a variable") while it's being evaluated
09:57:53 <soundnfury> and so then when baz is passed in, it will bind x to *baz, and then it evaluates foo and finds "Ah, this is (x x)", then evaluates the xs and gets (baz baz)
09:58:46 <nortti> ok. so dynamicaly scoped
10:09:29 <AnotherTest> I've just seen a Java method of 381 lines.
10:09:34 <AnotherTest> I'm shocked.
10:09:43 <nortti> what did it do?
10:09:48 <soundnfury> <AnotherTest> I've just seen a Java method <- you could have stopped there, frankly
10:09:51 <soundnfury> it's bad enough already
10:10:11 <AnotherTest> It's a sequence of if ... else
10:10:19 <AnotherTest> 381 lines long
10:10:48 <nortti> what is it's purpose
10:10:54 <AnotherTest> and they wrapped that in an if-statement
10:11:05 <AnotherTest> handlers for a game client
10:11:26 <AnotherTest> https://github.com/PenguinClientLibrary/JPCL/blob/master/com/PenguinClientLibrary/JPCL/Cucumber.java
10:11:50 <AnotherTest> This is probably some of the worst code I've ever seen in my life
10:12:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
10:12:19 <Taneb> AnotherTest, have you seen my attempt at haskell obfuscation?
10:12:28 <Taneb> It's the worst code I've ever seen in my life
10:12:32 <Taneb> Does its job, though
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10:12:48 <AnotherTest> Yes, but it's intended to be horrible
10:12:56 <AnotherTest> I think this is serious
10:12:57 <Taneb> Of course, it takes a couple of minutes if you put in 10, and crashes if you put in 11
10:14:07 <Taneb> @src (++0
10:14:07 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
10:14:10 <Taneb> @src (++)
10:14:10 <lambdabot> [] ++ ys = ys
10:14:10 <lambdabot> (x:xs) ++ ys = x : (xs ++ ys)
10:14:10 <lambdabot> -- OR
10:14:10 <lambdabot> xs ++ ys = foldr (:) ys xs
10:14:20 <Taneb> :(
10:14:24 <Taneb> :)
10:14:36 <Taneb> :?
10:14:42 <AnotherTest> oh god
10:14:46 <AnotherTest> I agree
10:15:01 <AnotherTest> but in this case I should say well done
10:15:04 <Taneb> :)
10:15:40 <Taneb> Are you looking at this version? http://hpaste.org/raw/71201
10:16:13 <Taneb> I could probably make it shorter with a few $'s
10:16:31 <AnotherTest> http://hpaste.org/71206
10:16:44 <Taneb> That was me trying to be arty
10:16:50 <Taneb> The code itself is exactly the same
10:16:59 <Taneb> But my artiness failed a bit :(
10:17:46 <AnotherTest> not to insult your art but, what does the shape represent?
10:17:56 <Taneb> An exclamation mark, on its side
10:18:05 <Taneb> Yeah, it sucks
10:18:07 <AnotherTest> oh yes, I can see that
10:18:19 <AnotherTest> I should now show some of my own work
10:18:27 <AnotherTest> it's C++ though, I hope you don't midn
10:18:29 <AnotherTest> *mind
10:18:37 <Taneb> I don't really know C++ at all
10:18:51 <Taneb> (which is really bad, considering it's the second programming language I tried to learn)
10:18:55 <Taneb> But I'll give it a look
10:19:24 <AnotherTest> and it's christmas like
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10:19:32 <AnotherTest> http://ideone.com/4KSaH
10:19:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
10:19:48 <AnotherTest> (because it was Christmas at the time I wrote it)
10:20:12 <AnotherTest> It's not really that complicated
10:20:25 <AnotherTest> It's mainly the shape really
10:24:44 <Taneb> @ping
10:24:45 <lambdabot> pong
10:24:45 <Taneb> :(
10:26:39 <stanley> Someone care to explain the reasoning of Esoteric Languages to me?
10:27:05 <nortti> what do you mean by "reasoning of Esoteric Languages"?
10:27:39 <stanley> Why people do it?
10:27:48 <nortti> for fun
10:27:52 <nortti> mostly
10:28:03 <stanley> Is the aim just to confuse people or what?
10:28:06 <AnotherTest> or to prove a point
10:28:15 <stanley> It seems like having fun with confusing people
10:28:15 <AnotherTest> (cf. dennis ritchie)
10:29:08 <nortti> hmm. I just create languages I find interesting
10:29:57 <FireFly> not necessarily to confuse people
10:30:28 <itidus21> stanley: although i am guilty of ruining this channel, ex officio, i have nonetheless some constructive comments
10:30:29 <nortti> most of my languages were created when I was bored at math class
10:30:57 <stanley> itidus21: what do you mean?
10:31:06 <itidus21> check the channel topic :D
10:31:21 <stanley> ah
10:31:38 <shachaf> itidus21: What are your constructive comments?
10:31:47 <AnotherTest> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language under Purpose maybe
10:32:13 <itidus21> i think one goal of esolangs is to strip away meaningless details
10:33:09 <itidus21> for instance, the emphasis tends to be on the core languages rather than using any libraries or APIs
10:33:15 <stanley> oh I see
10:34:07 <itidus21> they can have built in functionality, but third party libraries are rare
10:34:31 <itidus21> it's not really about making anything which requires external libraries or APIs
10:34:36 <shachaf> The itidus21 guide to esoteric languages.
10:34:38 <shachaf> For sale now.
10:34:45 <AnotherTest> At amazon.com
10:34:53 <AnotherTest> Free shipping!
10:35:03 <itidus21> hmm
10:35:08 <itidus21> i can do better
10:35:19 <nortti> price is 0x25 dollars
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10:35:24 <shachaf> > 0x25
10:35:26 <lambdabot> 37
10:35:38 <shachaf> That's alotta dollars.
10:36:06 <AnotherTest> 100101
10:36:15 <itidus21> it has a lot to do with the things that don't get taught in schools that often
10:36:19 <shachaf> > 0b100101
10:36:20 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `b100101'
10:36:56 <itidus21> hummmm
10:37:00 <shachaf> > succ . (2*) . (2*) . succ . (2*) . (2*) . (2*) . succ . (2*) $ 0
10:37:03 <lambdabot> 37
10:37:11 <AnotherTest> aha
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10:47:12 <itidus21> stanley: some of the things that goes on is writing efficient programs in esolangs
10:47:27 <stanley> Oh yes, because you do not have all of the extra stuff
10:47:35 <itidus21> hmm..
10:47:46 <stanley> It doesn't look efficient to write in though
10:47:49 <itidus21> i am clueless... the way i see myself here is
10:47:49 <soundnfury> 0t1101. Shame, it doesn't have any As in
10:48:14 <itidus21> i am like if your grandma walked into CERN and started trying to make relevant conversations
10:48:33 <stanley> Oh, I am the same
10:48:37 <itidus21> ya..
10:49:02 <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
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10:49:16 <itidus21> so, ok brainfuck is apparently inspired by the goal of writing the smallest possible compiler
10:49:23 <stanley> soundnfury: Sounds tough to do, good luck. ;)
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10:49:37 <soundnfury> itidus21: wouldn't the smallest possible compiler be for subleq?
10:49:40 <soundnfury> the OISC?
10:49:52 <itidus21> hmm
10:50:00 <itidus21> i don't know
10:50:01 <soundnfury> since the source code consists of triples of numbers
10:50:09 <itidus21> :D
10:50:15 <soundnfury> you could mandate that the numbers are in unary
10:50:48 <itidus21> anyway, another thing about brainfuck is that it happens to be very similar to some simple programming language described in an old mathematical paper
10:50:51 <soundnfury> then your compiler is just reading lists of, say, * and counting them
10:50:56 <soundnfury> itidus21: P'
10:51:06 <soundnfury> (P-prime)
10:51:06 <nortti> P''
10:51:09 <soundnfury> oh
10:51:09 <soundnfury> sorry
10:51:14 <itidus21> it is unknown if this is a coincedence
10:51:27 <stanley> why don't we just ask the creator of brainfuck
10:51:57 <itidus21> from the esolang wiki "It is not known to what extent Mller was aware of or influenced by Bhm's language P'' published in 1964, of which brainfuck can be considered a minor variation. "
10:52:06 <itidus21> :D
10:55:17 <itidus21> some mathematician named david hilbert had this problem for mathematicians called the decision problem. 2 people named alan turing and alonzo church came up with solutions which are somehow very important to computing
10:56:03 <itidus21> many esolangs are based fairly directly on the work of alan turing and alonzo church
10:56:46 <itidus21> and other mathematicians too probably
10:58:50 <itidus21> usually the entire esolang, with all it's syntax and rules can be described on a single article page
10:59:17 <itidus21> unlike many mainstream and proprietry languages which tend to require a book
11:01:11 <itidus21> another common theme seems to be converting and compiling from one esolang to another
11:01:52 <itidus21> ^interpreting and compiling
11:02:28 <itidus21> also writing an interpreter of a language, in that language
11:03:06 <itidus21> eg. a brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck
11:05:15 <itidus21> another aspect of esolangs is exploring different ways of representing sourcecode, such as images or music
11:05:49 <nortti> and then there are the joke languages
11:07:53 <itidus21> joke languages often push ideas to extreme absurdities
11:09:17 <itidus21> i have ranted too long
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11:44:48 <itidus21> wb guys
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11:53:09 <elliott> someone make http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust not suck, because http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies is so good that I want to feature the former as an excuse to promote the latter
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11:53:20 <elliott> whoops I had other things to say about it:
11:53:29 <elliott> it is quite honestly the best-written and probably most useful page on the wiki
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13:40:47 <quintopia> elliott so mean
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13:53:05 <mroman> !bfjoust [>->+>->+]
13:53:05 <EgoBot> ​Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
13:53:14 <mroman> !bfjoust [muh >->+>->+]
13:53:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman__muh: 0.0
13:53:29 <mroman> !bfjoust muh [>->+>->+]
13:53:32 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_muh: 0.0
13:53:38 <mroman> :)
13:53:58 <fizzie> Looks like it'd run out of the right end pretty fast.
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14:27:18 <?unknown?> [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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14:29:32 <mroman> makes sense.
14:30:31 <mroman> I probably shouldn't try it again.
14:32:10 <mroman> Although...
14:32:28 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<]
14:32:32 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:32:51 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<][>][-]
14:32:54 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:15 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<]+
14:33:19 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:24 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<][>-]
14:33:28 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:31 <mroman> hm.
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14:33:39 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<<][<-]
14:33:43 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:33:50 <mroman> Gregor: What happened?
14:35:18 <mroman> !bfjoust decoy [>->+>->+<<<]
14:35:21 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_decoy: 0.1
14:35:31 <mroman> The tape apparently doesn't wrap around.
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17:00:56 <nooga> was there an esoland inspired by legal language?
17:02:32 * boily cringes in fear
17:03:48 <olsner> nooga: make one and call it EULA
17:04:53 <nooga> i'm sure there's one already
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17:08:55 <olsner> yes, probably
17:09:55 <MDude> Is there an esoteric programming theme park called Esoland?
17:10:03 <quintopia> unfortunately not
17:10:08 <quintopia> we're working on it
17:10:38 <olsner> the reason elliott is not around here so often is that he's overseeing the project to built that
17:11:25 <quintopia> the only thing we know about it so far is that it will have squarelos
17:11:38 <quintopia> (oriented to north/south/east/west)
17:18:06 <itidus21> hmm
17:19:03 <itidus21> sometimes i wonder what it would look like if i did a rendering where things got larger as they got closer
17:19:10 <itidus21> oops i mean smaller
17:19:47 <itidus21> ^took up more of the visual field
17:20:24 <itidus21> i guess i mean if the size of the perspective projection of an object decreased with proximity
17:21:16 <Sgeo_> "TotalBiscuit introduces you to a gentle-paced strategy game by the creators of waterboarding"
17:21:22 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY6TrLsN6qM
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18:34:19 <boily> itidus21: http://vimeo.com/12518619
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19:15:49 <MDude> I made a rough description of a language using the metaphor of a spider moving around inside a square, but I'm not sure if Spider's Square should be name of the lanugage or just the term for an instance of a program made in the language, which would then be called Spider Square.
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19:19:59 <boily> MDude: https://xkcd.com/8/ ?
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19:25:41 <MDude> That's a nice picture, but what I'm making is more two dimensional.
19:26:09 <MDude> Plus the spider uses thread, though it isn't designed for multithreading.
19:27:14 <MDude> I'll go with Spider Square.
19:27:31 <MDude> Wait hmm.
19:29:19 <MDude> Spider's jsut sounds better, and it's unlikely I'd get program instances regularly called something other than "the program".
19:29:24 <MDude> *just
19:30:02 <MDude> And I'll just change it later if I want.
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19:34:48 <MDude> Actually, I'm not sure if it should go on the wiki until I either implement or make some explicit syntax.
19:35:33 <nortti> list of ideas?
19:36:35 <MDude> Nah, it's pretty long for a thing to stick in a list, unless you mean I should put up a page for it and link it there.
19:39:12 <oerjan> `addquote <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
19:39:21 <HackEgo> 852) <soundnfury> stanley: basically, the entire purpose of the esolang community is, we're trying to invent a language that's worse than Haskell. We're not there yet, though some of the funges are close.
19:39:37 <Gregor> X-D
19:39:42 <Gregor> soundnfury++
19:39:49 <nortti> worse than haskell?
19:40:50 <MDude> I'll just leave it unlisted for now.
19:40:52 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Spider%27s_Square
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19:51:26 <zzo38> Do you know anything about aerobatic diagrams?
19:52:19 <oerjan> sounds like something to send your head spinning. and rest of body.
19:53:41 <MDude> Nothing, other than the fact that they're called that probably means they're related to aeobatic moves and thus the part of the program involving arcs.
19:53:48 <oerjan> wait i'm confusing with acrobatics. although the head spinning part still holds.
19:53:58 <MDude> So was I, I guess.
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19:54:31 <oerjan> ...wait wikipedia says they're the same thing...
19:54:35 <MDude> I guess it's be a diagram of how to do stretches, jump in place, etc.
19:55:02 <MDude> Actually I tihnk that's be aerobic, not areobatic.
19:55:20 <oerjan> oh no, it's just aerobatics are sometimes also called acrobatics
19:56:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver has some diagrams
19:57:56 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aresti_Catalog seems to be an official guide
19:58:35 <oerjan> zzo38: ^
19:58:41 <zzo38> I try to write a program in Haskell (and using "dvi-processing" package) to draw the diagrams from an input file specifying catalog numbers and manual overrides and so on.
19:58:46 <zzo38> I understand a few things about it.
19:59:08 <zzo38> But I need to make the algorithm to figure out which line to make longer, how to lay out on a page,e tc
20:02:10 <zzo38> The catalog diagrams can be split into the parts and then draw these pieces in METAFONT, I could do so.
20:06:01 <oerjan> dmm's most awful pun yet? http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/?comic=1288
20:06:37 <MDude> Images not loading for me.
20:06:41 <oerjan> ...
20:07:00 <oerjan> MDude: that's intentional
20:07:53 <oerjan> postcard is a comic with only annotations
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20:07:59 <FireFly> oh, it *is* loading
20:08:13 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
20:08:14 <MDude> I see.
20:08:27 <FireFly> :(
20:08:44 <oerjan> also a cooperative work.
20:09:13 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/about.php should make things clearer *mad cackle*
20:11:49 <oerjan> or http://www.mezzacotta.net/postcard/faq.php
20:11:54 * oerjan runs away
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20:20:51 <shachaf> hoerjan.php
20:21:33 <oerjan> hey i'm not php
20:22:06 <oerjan> unless it stands for Pretty Hilarious Person, of course.
20:23:05 <oerjan> ...i guess the .php's up there are a bit of a clue.
20:24:51 <oerjan> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Gusf8 needs a helpful boot out the door
20:26:07 <shachaf> hoerjan.mm
20:26:28 <shachaf> That's write, you're Objective-C++
20:26:30 <oerjan> i don't know about .mm
20:26:32 <shachaf> Ugh.
20:26:34 <shachaf> Right.
20:26:35 <shachaf> Ugh.
20:26:39 <shachaf> :-(
20:26:46 <shachaf> Thankslotoerjan.
20:26:59 <shachaf> My weakness has been revealed, and now I can't show my face in here again.
20:27:04 <oerjan> wat
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20:27:31 <kmc> Objective-Shootyourself
20:29:37 <zzo38> What is Objective-Shootyourself?
20:34:10 <oerjan> apple's new PL, which will be mandatory for their next product line
20:34:36 <zzo38> How does it work?
20:34:45 <oerjan> you program, then you die.
20:34:57 <kmc> then you give them money
20:35:17 <oerjan> then once all human programmers are dead, apple's ai programmers take over the world
20:38:51 <mroman> You program, you're soul belongs to them
20:38:56 <mroman> your
20:39:13 <mroman> no
20:39:17 <mroman> I'm going with you're
20:39:19 <mroman> like in
20:39:36 <mroman> all your soul are belong to them.
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20:52:19 <zzo38> Is it correct? Codensity Endo = [] CodensityAsk Endo = Writer (Sum Natural) Density Endo = Traced (Product Natural)
21:02:13 <zzo38> Yesterday I have played Dungeons&Dragons game.
21:06:07 <zzo38> Now I am being assassinated and have to somehow catch him.
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21:09:01 <zzo38> "200 gold pieces." "I think that is too much." "I cannot reduce the price; illithids are dangerous. We can kill the fighter for 100 gold pieces." "What price for both of them?" "... 250 gold pieces." "OK"
21:09:45 <oerjan> the mystery of haggling
21:09:52 <zzo38> At least, I have a spell of Locate Object and a scroll of Locate Creature; these may help. Since, I need to catch the chancellor too.
21:11:01 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, even assassins are haggling.
21:11:14 <zzo38> I almost got killed, but I got saved by wizard guild just in time.
21:13:29 <zzo38> The scroll of Locate Creature cost me 20 of the king's gold coins and a copy of the Object Mirroring spell. Hopefully I somehow need to get back the money before the king arrives or else hope the king is OK with me spending his money in order to save the kingdom.
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21:15:55 <zzo38> But I have thought ahead of nearly everything including zwischenzug and Sicilian reasoning.
21:18:13 <mroman> Zwischenzug Reasoning?
21:18:36 <mroman> Cool.
21:18:40 <mroman> A german chess term :)
21:18:54 <kmc> schnellzug
21:19:02 <kmc> wuppertal schwebebahn
21:19:09 <zzo38> During the game session, the other player made up stuff which isn't true, such as the eggs he got from the store actually being bombs, hiring a suicide team, the royal chefs looking to see if the eggs hatched and since they didn't hatch falling to the floor laughing and tripping on their own swods and dying, the assassins using a poison that only works on humans therefore won't affect me, etc. None of which is true.
21:19:20 <mroman> Zugzwang
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21:19:37 <zzo38> mroman: Yes, I know zugzwang, too.
21:21:26 <zzo38> s/swods/swords/
21:22:41 <zzo38> kmc: What is "schnellzug" and "wuppertal schwebebahn"?
21:23:16 <kmc> lmgtfy
21:25:58 <mroman> Schnellzug is a fast train.
21:25:58 <oerjan> neanderthal fahrvergnugen
21:27:05 <mroman> Like the inuits german has 100 words for snow .
21:27:08 <mroman> and also for trains .
21:27:43 <kmc> Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizitätenhauptbetriebswerkbauunterbeamtengesellschaft
21:27:50 <oerjan> Schneemann, lass das Träumen
21:28:01 <mroman> kmc: Exactly.
21:30:28 <oerjan> no no, it's not that they have 100 words for snow, it's that they have words for snow that are 100 letters long
21:31:14 <oerjan> this might apply to the inuits too, btw
21:31:43 <shachaf> kmc: You didn't even stick a single ß in there?
21:32:10 <shachaf> Oh, that's an actual word.
21:33:02 <olsner> oerjan: speaking of words for snow, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowclone
21:33:08 <nortti_> what does it mean?
21:33:37 <kmc> shachaf: fsvo actual
21:33:51 <kmc> oerjan: but because words are combinatorial in this way, they also have a lot of them
21:33:54 <kmc> far more than 100
21:34:03 <kmc> probably 2⁸⁰ words for trains
21:34:15 <kmc> i should invent a function which hashes any data to a german word about trains
21:34:28 <olsner> because as we all know, germans are CRAZY about TRAINS
21:34:33 <oerjan> darn exponential explosion.
21:34:42 <shachaf> oerjan: That sounds dangerous.
21:34:46 <zzo38> edwardk: Is it this? CodensityAsk Endo = Writer (Sum Natural) Density Endo = Traced (Product Natural)
21:34:53 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a real big bang
21:35:06 <zzo38> Do you know either of these?
21:35:10 <kmc> bang bang feuer frei
21:35:44 <nortti_> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow
21:35:59 <oerjan> never do a tango with an eskimo
21:36:38 <olsner> nortti_: argh! why did you have to link to MOBILE wikipedia? :(
21:37:00 <nortti_> because I'm on my phone
21:38:41 <oerjan> i discovered the other day that the mobile version of a site linked on reddit crashed IE
21:39:09 <nortti_> why did you use IE?
21:39:18 * oerjan swats nortti_ -----###
21:39:31 <nortti_> why?
21:40:27 <oerjan> because i always do.
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21:40:54 <olsner> speaking of things that crash IE - luckily for you, I think my nested iframe tests are all broken now
21:41:23 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure IE is the real problem, though. i have strange delays just bringing up desktop programs sometimes.
21:42:16 <olsner> something capable of running IE would do that
21:42:30 <oerjan> but websites which gobble cpu even after loading do make things work.
21:42:32 <oerjan> *worse.
21:43:53 <oerjan> it _is_ a six year old laptop, it's to be expected it cannot always keep up.
21:44:14 <oerjan> (and it wasn't a top model when it was bought, either.)
21:44:25 <nortti_> only 6 years old?
21:44:47 <olsner> I'd suggest Opera, but I think they've dropped Windows 95 support now
21:45:32 <zzo38> By F-algebras I would suppose (CodensityAsk Endo) would be same like (Free Identity)
21:46:37 <nortti_> I'd suggest k-meleon for that laptop if it runs windows and not ie inside wine
21:47:08 <kmc> k-meleon f-algebras
21:47:15 <nortti_> (find the 1.7 alpha version. other are bit outdated)
21:48:06 <nortti_> (k-meleon 1.7 alpha is on the same level as camino 2.1)
21:49:18 <nortti_> *2.1.2
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21:59:29 <Vorpal> g
21:59:36 <Vorpal> err, why was that in the buffer
21:59:37 <Vorpal> whatever
22:00:01 <Vorpal> nortti_, what is k-melon?
22:00:30 <nortti_> k-meleon is a lightweight web browser
22:00:33 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i discovered the other day that the mobile version of a site linked on reddit crashed IE <-- lol
22:00:36 <Vorpal> ah
22:00:38 <oerjan> the g was trying to sneak out of your computer but got sidetracked
22:01:07 <nortti_> (yes, it is written k-meleon)
22:01:16 <Vorpal> ah yes
22:01:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, why do you using IE if it is so buggy
22:01:44 <Vorpal> just import all the bookmarks into firefox or chrome and don't look back
22:02:06 <oerjan> actually not crash, just pegged the cpu, so i had to kill it
22:02:14 <Vorpal> <olsner> I'd suggest Opera, but I think they've dropped Windows 95 support now <-- oerjan is using windows 95?!
22:02:34 * oerjan regrets bringing this up, again.
22:02:38 <Vorpal> oerjan, still counts as buggy
22:02:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, seriously are you using windows 95?
22:02:50 <oerjan> ...i think he may have meant xp.
22:02:54 <Vorpal> ah
22:03:08 <Vorpal> chrome or firefox should both work fine under xp
22:03:16 <Vorpal> though why anyone would still use xp is beyond me
22:03:20 <oerjan> maybe he was just joking.
22:03:26 <Vorpal> apart from the better font rendering of course
22:03:30 <Vorpal> fuck cleartype
22:03:58 <nortti_> fuck ie shell. I'm staying at win95/nt4
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22:05:04 <olsner> Vorpal: I have no idea what version of windows he is using, I'm just joking that because he uses IE it must be something ancient
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22:16:42 <olsner> Vorpal: obviously the joke would've been much funnier if you got it without an explanation
22:18:17 <ion> k http://youtu.be/FrtyQ1uSRB4
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23:04:43 <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next
23:04:52 <coppro> quick, get him here
23:06:23 <ion> heh http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/php-explained
23:06:55 <coppro> nah, that's not the canonical PHP experience
23:07:08 <coppro> the canonical PHP experience would call the second function mapArray
23:10:03 <olsner> yes, and mapArray is the one that actually filters the array, and instead of taking the array as an argument it takes the name of the variable it's in
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23:10:59 <coppro> olsner: we should be php developers
23:13:00 * coppro loves websites that accept example.org email addresses
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2012-07-17
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00:52:25 <Vorpal> <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next <-- how did you find it?
00:53:12 <shachaf> Vorpal: Is there a difference between you and Veinor?
01:23:38 <Vorpal> shachaf, who is "Veinor"?
01:24:22 <shachaf> 17:54 <Veinor> Yes.
01:24:22 <shachaf> 17:54 <Veinor> > "Veinor" == "Vorpal"
01:24:38 <Vorpal> shachaf, in this channel? Is the timestamp in UTC?
01:24:48 <Vorpal> anyway I'm not that guy, whoever it is
01:24:49 <shachaf> No, in the other channel.
01:24:55 <Vorpal> shachaf, WHICH OTHER CHANNEL?
01:24:59 <oerjan> _that_ channel? omg!
01:25:08 <oerjan> wtf!
01:25:10 <oerjan> bbq!
01:25:37 * Vorpal waits for Mirror's Edge to finish downloading
01:25:51 <Vorpal> steam says over an hour left :/
01:26:29 <shachaf> Vorpal: Don't worry, you'd hate it anyway.
01:27:09 <Vorpal> shachaf, mirror's edge? Nope, I played a bit before, a friend owns it. Pretty cool game.
01:27:18 <shachaf> No, the other channel.
01:27:21 <Vorpal> oh
01:27:45 <shachaf> Mirror's Edge seemed kind of pointless to me.
01:27:51 <Vorpal> oh?
01:28:00 <Vorpal> The parkour seems pretty cool
01:28:07 <shachaf> It's been a few years since I looked at it, though.
01:28:28 <Vorpal> from what I understand it has become something of a cult game
01:31:22 <MDude> I still haven't finished that.
01:32:37 <Vorpal> hm
01:32:57 <Vorpal> also hopefully the parkour might be slightly more interesting than that of assasin's creed
01:33:00 <MDude> I like it, though it's very much a frustrating puzzle platform game.
01:33:25 <Vorpal> which is just "hold space, w and right mouse button, sometimes hit a few other keys"
01:33:42 <Vorpal> (that is revelations, I haven't played the earlier games)
01:34:17 <Vorpal> there was an image illustrating that I saw somewhere
01:34:19 * Vorpal googles
01:34:25 <Vorpal> ah: https://virtualshacklesimages.appspot.com/images/assassins_edge.jpg
01:35:03 <Vorpal> I just hope mirror's edge plays well with keyboard and mouse
01:35:21 <Vorpal> though I am planning to buy a pad sometime soon
01:35:25 <MDude> Try something like that but also hitting the other keys more often and also a lot of really annoying spots where you jump-die-respawn a lot.
01:35:40 <Vorpal> heh
01:35:54 <Vorpal> well, it was super-cheap on the steam summer sale, so meh
01:35:55 <MDude> Or worse, jump-fall-spend-several-minutes-climbing.
01:35:59 <Vorpal> and that sounds fun
01:36:08 <Vorpal> okay that doesn't sound so fun
01:36:18 <Vorpal> MDude, checkpoints rather than quicksaves I guess?
01:36:30 <MDude> Sort of.
01:36:32 <Vorpal> I have to say I prefer quicksave systems
01:36:46 <MDude> There's quicksave, but let's say you're climbing a tower.
01:36:57 <MDude> Sometimes when you fall, you die and go back a few seconds.
01:37:14 <Vorpal> hm okay?
01:37:19 <MDude> Other times, you survive, and get to enjoy climbing all the way back up form the bottom.
01:37:24 <MDude> *from
01:37:27 <Vorpal> couldn't you just quickload then
01:37:49 <MDude> I haven't found a way in the PS3 version other than dying.
01:37:59 <Vorpal> oh, well I'm playing on PC of course
01:38:05 <Vorpal> btw, did you know there is a sequel to IWBTG now?
01:38:07 <MDude> And climbing up to where you can die again activates the earlier quicksavepoint.
01:38:12 <MDude> *quicksave point
01:38:22 <MDude> Saw the link earlier.
01:39:15 <MDude> I'll have to try it out.
01:40:10 <Vorpal> I wouldn't, I watched a video of someone playing it, he died on the level select screen a few times first.
01:40:13 <Vorpal> was pretty funny
01:40:29 <Vorpal> let me find the link
01:40:42 <Vorpal> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY6TrLsN6qM&feature=plcp
01:40:44 <MDude> That's what was linked.
01:40:53 <Vorpal> MDude, what? The TB video?
01:41:10 <Vorpal> oh well
01:43:43 <MDude> It's partly because I used to hang out on a forum with the guy who made it a bit, so I figure I should try out stuff he makes.
01:45:30 <Vorpal> MDude, heh
01:45:41 <Vorpal> MDude, you should watch that video though if you haven't already
01:45:44 <Vorpal> it is pretty funny
01:46:27 <MDude> I figure I ought to at least see how far I can in a few plays get before spoiling the various death-traps.
01:46:43 <MDude> *plays before
01:48:37 <Vorpal> why does windows lower the system sound setting when I plug in my phone over USB
01:48:41 <Vorpal> that is kind of silly
01:48:46 <Vorpal> oh well, it is windows...
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02:11:38 <kmc> "Police arrested two Cambridge Department of Public Works employees outside the Target in Somerville on charges of selling marijuana out of a city-owned vehicle during working hours."
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03:20:29 <shachaf> kmc: http://cr.yp.to/snuffle/design.pdf seems to be an example of using a hash function in CTR mode.
03:21:11 <oerjan> snuff crypto
03:21:29 <oerjan> DON'T VISIT THAT WEBSITE!
03:21:46 <shachaf> oerjan: ?
03:22:18 <oerjan> shachaf: it's crypto that wants to kill you!
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03:44:37 <Vorpal> <kmc> "Police arrested two Cambridge Department of Public Works employees outside the Target in Somerville on charges of selling marijuana out of a city-owned vehicle during working hours." <-- wtf
03:44:48 <Vorpal> is that a different charge than selling marijuana in general?
03:45:23 <Vorpal> like, "selling marijuana out of a of a city-owned vehicle during working hours" carries a higher penalty than just selling marijuana in general?
03:45:24 <shachaf> No, you misread the sentence. They arrested them out of a city-owned vehicle during working hours.
03:45:35 <Vorpal> shachaf, oh right ;P
03:45:40 <shachaf> Which is presumably how police usually arrest people?
03:46:10 <shachaf> Seems odd to specify it.
03:48:29 <Vorpal> why does uploading stuff kill my /download/ so badly
03:49:26 <kmc> heh
03:49:39 <kmc> well i doubt the crime of "selling marijuana out of a of a city-owned vehicle during working hours" is mentioned on the books
03:49:52 <Vorpal> kmc, my thought exactly
03:50:04 <kmc> i don't think the wording in the article implies that there is
03:50:06 <itidus21> http://imgur.com/gallery/JGn2l
03:50:12 <Vorpal> hm knights of the old republic is on sale, super cheap, is it worth buying?
03:50:16 <Vorpal> that is the original in the series iirc
03:50:17 <kmc> but yes i expect they would get some additional misuse of public property or something
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03:50:40 <shachaf> kmc: Well, it wasn't mentioned on the books until now!
03:50:43 <Vorpal> any opinions on that?
03:50:49 <shachaf> I suppose you might not be talking about the same books.
03:51:00 <shachaf> Vorpal: "everyone" seems to say that it's good.
03:51:17 <Vorpal> shachaf, you played it though?
03:51:21 <shachaf> Nope.
03:51:26 <kmc> itidus21: ahahahaha
03:52:24 <Vorpal> itidus21, ouch
03:52:50 <kmc> in college we used to drive out to the desert for roman candle naval battles
03:53:07 <kmc> you have two cars
03:53:27 <kmc> everyone who's not driving tries to hit the other car with roman candles out the windows
03:53:48 <Vorpal> also fuck steam for lagging out
03:54:46 -!- trout has changed nick to constant.
04:01:07 -!- quintopia has set topic: celebrates the 27th anniversary of Gregor's uterine expulsion | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:01:22 -!- quintopia has set topic: #esoteric celebrates the 27th anniversary of Gregor's uterine expulsion | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:01:23 <oonbotti> Nothing here
04:03:01 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: begone).
04:04:08 <kmc> shachaf ex machina
04:04:35 <shachaf> Is kmc guilty of ruining this channel?
04:05:08 <shachaf> kmc: I like Salsa20 now.
04:06:11 <Vorpal> Gregor, hm according to the topic I should say happy bday
04:06:18 <Vorpal> unless that is outdated
04:06:51 <Gregor> Oh fer
04:06:53 <Gregor> Hrrrrng
04:07:02 <Vorpal> Gregor, what
04:07:16 <Gregor> I post a screed on Facebook about not giving me birthday wishes so SOMEBODY puts it here and also gets my birthday wrong X-D
04:07:38 <Gregor> quintopia: If you enter your twenty-seventh year of life, how old are you?
04:07:43 <Vorpal> Gregor, screed?
04:07:51 <Vorpal> XD
04:08:01 <Vorpal> wth is a "screed"?
04:08:12 <quintopia> Gregor: old as shit
04:08:15 <Vorpal> is it some facebook thing?
04:08:17 <quintopia> but i'll fix it
04:08:20 <Vorpal> I don't have facebook
04:08:57 -!- quintopia has set topic: #esoteric celebrates the 26th anniversary of Gregor's uterine expulsion | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex pony), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:08:57 <oonbotti> Nothing here
04:08:58 <Gregor> Vorpal: A screed is a very negative rant.
04:09:18 <Vorpal> ah
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04:09:32 <shachaf> @wn screed
04:09:33 <kappabot> *** "screed" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
04:09:33 <kappabot> screed
04:09:33 <kappabot> n 1: a long monotonous harangue
04:09:33 <kappabot> 2: a long piece of writing
04:09:33 <kappabot> 3: an accurately levelled strip of material placed on a wall or
04:09:35 <kappabot> floor as guide for the even application of plaster or
04:09:37 <kappabot> concrete
04:09:37 <Vorpal> Gregor, so you don't want bday wishes then I guess?
04:10:00 <Gregor> Really I just don't want FACEBOOK birthday wishes X-D
04:10:08 <Vorpal> ah
04:12:11 <Gregor> I love how that definition uses “harangue”, an equally uncommon word, to define “screed”.
04:12:25 <Vorpal> why does google have to make things so convenient. You just end up giving them all your data -_-
04:13:00 <quintopia> pretty common in dictionaries
04:13:03 <Vorpal> Gregor, I knew what harangue was. There is a similar Swedish word that isn't as uncommon though
04:13:50 <Vorpal> anyway wrt google: in this specific case I'm lamenting the way that contacts and calendar integrates on my phone (android, so yeah) and on the PC. It is really slick, but you do end up giving your data to google by doing that :/
04:14:18 <Vorpal> besides the contact stuff integrates with gmail, which is really nice
04:14:31 <oerjan> Gregor only has half a deck of cards, if you get my drift
04:14:40 <itidus21> lol
04:14:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't. What does the idiom mean?
04:15:00 <Gregor> X_X
04:15:10 <oerjan> ...i guess i shouldn't have expected Vorpal to get it.
04:15:20 * Vorpal googles "has half a deck of cards"
04:15:33 <itidus21> it's the best way i have heard that idiom expressed
04:15:42 <Vorpal> no, just card tricks
04:15:53 <Vorpal> itidus21, what does it mean though?
04:16:15 <Vorpal> "oh not playing with a full deck"? Right
04:16:17 <itidus21> Vorpal: the actual meaning is about the ratio of how many cards he has, to how many cards he should have
04:16:33 <Vorpal> itidus21, so being crazy in other words
04:16:34 <Vorpal> right
04:17:00 <itidus21> suspense!
04:17:06 <Gregor> 26 is half of 52, Vorpal.
04:17:22 <Vorpal> Gregor, yes I did understand that
04:17:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, I just had no clue what the idiom ws
04:17:28 <oerjan> yay!
04:17:29 <Vorpal> was*
04:17:46 <Vorpal> which was obviously needed to get why it was funny
04:17:52 <Gregor> ANYWAY
04:17:58 <Gregor> I shall spend my birthday making a pony game.
04:18:00 <Gregor> Because I'm awesome.
04:18:17 <Vorpal> Gregor, what sort of pony game?
04:18:32 <Gregor> Vorpal: http://codu.org/websplat/ , but with (more and better) ponies.
04:18:32 <Vorpal> are we talking about a riding simulator here?
04:18:37 <Vorpal> ah
04:18:39 <Gregor> Hahah, not even a little bit.
04:18:47 <Gregor> I'm talking about My Little Pony X-D
04:18:48 <itidus21> you can't "ride" a pony
04:18:58 <Vorpal> Gregor, ouch, the pain
04:19:13 <Vorpal> itidus21, eh? A child could surely
04:19:15 <Gregor> itidus21: You can if you're small enough, presumably *shrugs*
04:19:32 <itidus21> humm
04:19:38 <pikhq> Or anorexic enough.
04:20:11 <itidus21> i havent actually watched MLP though so i don't know
04:20:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, why does ctrl-w on the page after playing the game not work
04:20:52 <Vorpal> it just causes the guy to jump
04:20:59 <Vorpal> (using firefox)
04:21:12 <Vorpal> that is annoying
04:21:19 <Gregor> Vorpal: It takes the 'W' key. It's on my bugs list, should be easy to fix.
04:21:29 <Vorpal> cheers
04:21:37 <itidus21> ok i actually watched a retro MLP episode with a commentary
04:22:16 <pikhq> I saw an episode of it for the first time today.
04:22:59 <Gregor> itidus21: … why would you do that.
04:23:18 <pikhq> Glutton for punishment, presumably.
04:23:24 <Gregor> pikhq: Which episode?
04:23:34 <pikhq> Gregor: Season 1, episodes 1 and 2.
04:23:40 <Vorpal> MLP?
04:23:50 <pikhq> I figured I'd give it an honest shot, starting from the beginning.
04:24:05 <Vorpal> oh my little pony
04:24:09 <Vorpal> ouch
04:24:12 <pikhq> Vorpal: "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic", a show for girls that has gained a peripheral audience.
04:24:21 <Gregor> pikhq: *sage nod*. You should know (and have probably already been informed) that the first two episodes are thematically (though not stylistically) different from the remainder of the show.
04:24:26 <itidus21> for girls and bronies
04:24:29 <pikhq> Gregor: So I have been told.
04:24:44 <Gregor> Well, except for the first two episodes of the second season. And arguably the last episode of that season too.
04:25:11 <Vorpal> pikhq, right, I know that much, just didn't connect the abbreviation
04:25:30 <Vorpal> Gregor, you know what you need to do on your websplat. Not make the hero a pony, make the enemies ponies
04:25:36 <Vorpal> that is much more entertaining
04:25:37 <itidus21> why would i watch retro my little pony? well it's better than disney :D
04:25:39 <pikhq> Gregor: Now watching ep. 3.
04:25:45 <Gregor> Vorpal: I tolerate and love your dissenting opinion.
04:25:55 <Vorpal> Gregor, very funny
04:26:10 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway, why do you prefer the "hero" to be a pony?
04:26:18 <Gregor> Because ♥ ponies.
04:26:28 <Vorpal> Gregor, you are a bronnie? Please no
04:26:50 <Gregor> I am.
04:26:55 <Gregor> It's spelled "brony"
04:26:56 <itidus21> gregor actually has a pic of himself as a pony
04:26:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, okay
04:27:03 <itidus21> oops
04:27:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, link or it didn't happen
04:27:27 <Gregor> I also have this: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3414963326934&l=2b8be05fc8
04:27:57 <Vorpal> how is the swag on the front of your face staying on, or is it photoshopped?
04:28:29 <Gregor> Vorpal: It's a sticker.
04:28:33 <Vorpal> oh
04:29:12 <Vorpal> Gregor, anyway why are you complaining about the swag to purchase ratio? It is in the favour of the customer...
04:29:40 <Gregor> It's a joke X_X
04:29:44 <Vorpal> oh
04:29:57 <Gregor> And/or an excuse to take a photo of myself covered in ponies.
04:30:05 <Vorpal> ouch
04:30:31 <Gregor> Y'know what the best part of bronidom is?
04:30:33 <Gregor> Brony haters.
04:30:34 <Vorpal> no...
04:31:16 <Vorpal> Gregor, I don't really hate it. I just think it is a bit weird to go shouting out that you love a specific TV series like that. You don't see that behaviour for other TV series really... Not even Star Trek.
04:31:27 <Vorpal> (at least not outside conventions)
04:31:34 <itidus21> http://codu.org/dealwithit.png
04:31:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: You haven't seen fandom much, have you?
04:31:54 <Gregor> itidus21: Thank you, you've given the appropriate response perfectly!
04:32:07 <itidus21> ive got a feeling theres other pics.. that doesn't look like the one i had in mind
04:32:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, a bit. But from what I have seen bronies are unusually vocal about it.
04:32:23 <Gregor> itidus21: However that's not me as a pony, that's Pinkie Pie, and it's just a scene from an episode I grabbed.
04:32:26 <pikhq> If anything they are astoundingly ordinary in their vocalness.
04:32:29 <Vorpal> pikhq, you don't see people behaving this way over CSI for example. Not that I seen anyway.
04:32:35 <Gregor> Because she was wearing a hat and being unbelievably awesome.
04:32:59 <Vorpal> Gregor, when did you start being a brony?
04:33:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: That's because CSI doesn't have much of a fandom.
04:33:08 <itidus21> yeah, the one of you as a pony has a beret as i recall
04:33:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm okay
04:33:39 <pikhq> Vorpal: Also, I don't think you appreciate the level of obsession some people go to with Trek fandom *in particular*.
04:34:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, at conventions I would definitely agree. But outside that?
04:34:01 <pikhq> Klingon-style weddings are a *thing*.
04:34:07 <Vorpal> hm okay
04:34:16 <Vorpal> what /is/ a "Klingon-style wedding"?
04:34:17 <Gregor> Vorpal: Donno, months ago.
04:34:32 <pikhq> Vorpal: They depicted a Klingon wedding in an episode.
04:34:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, how did it differ from a normal wedding
04:34:48 <pikhq> Slash fan-fic was invented. In the *70s*. Kirk-Spock manlove. Before the Internet.
04:34:52 <pikhq> Need I say more...
04:35:03 <Vorpal> eh, there is always slash fan-fic.
04:35:08 <Vorpal> *shrug*
04:35:12 <pikhq> No.
04:35:19 <pikhq> There has not always been slash fan-fic.
04:35:26 <Vorpal> oh?
04:35:27 <pikhq> It was invented in Trek fandom.
04:35:35 <Vorpal> really, that is kind of scary
04:35:44 <kallisti> I would just like to state for the record, that I prefer Picard to Kirk.
04:35:54 <pikhq> Distributed in pain-stakingly gathered pamphlets.
04:35:55 <Vorpal> anyway I generally oppose fandom. Consider that fan is short for fanatic.
04:35:58 <pikhq> Because there was no Internet.
04:36:09 <itidus21> your statement has been recorded
04:36:46 <itidus21> Vorpal: apparently theres 2 schools of thought on the matter.
04:36:55 <Vorpal> <kallisti> I would just like to state for the record, that I prefer Picard to Kirk. <-- well of course, one is played by a far better actor...
04:37:04 <Vorpal> itidus21, hm?
04:37:09 <itidus21> one is that it comes from fanatic, another is that ..
04:37:38 <Vorpal> itidus21, yes?
04:37:43 <Vorpal> carry on
04:37:56 <itidus21> i don't know
04:37:56 <pikhq> kallisti: Well, *duh*. Picard is better in practically every way.
04:38:15 <pikhq> Worse in the sleeping with alien chicks bit, but I don't consider this an important metric.
04:38:15 <itidus21> fancy is the other etymology
04:38:21 <Vorpal> itidus21, hm okay
04:38:33 <Vorpal> which one is correct though
04:38:36 <itidus21> i was actually at wikipedia just the other day looking up the etymology
04:38:55 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Worse in the sleeping with alien chicks bit, but I don't consider this an important metric. <-- I don't remember Picard ever doing that?
04:39:00 <Vorpal> so surely that is better
04:39:06 <pikhq> See?
04:39:20 <Vorpal> I haven't watched more than 3 or 4 episodes of TOS
04:39:28 <Vorpal> so I can't possibly comment on the level of that there
04:39:30 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fan_(person)#Origin_of_the_word
04:39:31 <oerjan> third option: shakespeare just made the word up. (goes for much of english in general.) * runs away
04:39:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, :D
04:39:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: It's Kirk's thing, really.
04:39:52 <Vorpal> I see
04:39:56 <pikhq> Up there with getting in fist fights.
04:39:57 <Vorpal> btw I haven't watched any DS9
04:40:05 <pikhq> Shame. DS9's pretty good.
04:40:18 <pikhq> Little different from TNG in feel, but nevertheless good.
04:40:36 <Vorpal> watched maybe 2 seasons of TNG in total, but spread out
04:41:01 <Vorpal> half a season in total of Voy, again spread out. Similar for that last one, whatever they call it.
04:41:20 <pikhq> I suggest watching more of TNG. When it's good it's astounding, and it's often good.
04:41:30 <pikhq> Don't bother with VOY and ENT.
04:41:38 <Vorpal> ah, ENT is what they call it
04:41:44 <Vorpal> and yeah TNG is decent I guess
04:42:04 <pikhq> "Decent"?
04:42:13 <Vorpal> did I typo it?
04:42:15 <pikhq> How much of seasons 1 and/or 2 did you see?
04:42:28 <itidus21> anyway, the generation aged in their 30s always labours under the belief that they are outsmarting the generation aged 5-15 with their marketing practices, blissfully unaware that they were once 5 - 15
04:42:41 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't really remember, so many years ago. But pretty evenly spread out over several seasons I believe
04:42:52 <Vorpal> it did get better after the first season yes
04:42:59 <pikhq> I suppose, much easier: did Riker have a beard?
04:43:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, in some of the episodes, not all
04:43:44 <pikhq> If Riker is unbearded, you know it's going to be a stinky pile of shit.
04:43:48 <kallisti> pikhq: I've been told this is a point of contention among trekkies
04:43:48 <Vorpal> anyway, I'm not really a star trek nerd. What interests me with science fiction is not the stuff that star trek provides
04:43:54 * kallisti has barely seen any star trek
04:44:00 <pikhq> Also if it's a Wesley episode.
04:44:13 <Vorpal> oh yeah, wesley was horrible
04:44:19 <pikhq> kallisti: Nah, it's universally accepted: Riker must have beard, and Wesley can go off and die in a fire.
04:44:29 <kallisti> pikhq: I meant Kirk vs. Picard
04:44:37 <pikhq> kallisti: Ah. For some reason, yeah.
04:44:46 <pikhq> kallisti: It is contested, but yeah.
04:45:10 <pikhq> Vorpal: I should also note that when Trek is bad it's terrible.
04:45:16 <Vorpal> yes
04:45:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what interests me in science fiction is the stuff that is generally considered hard science fiction. Star Trek does not provide that in any way at all.
04:46:04 <kallisti> pikhq: from what I can tell it boils down to: one is the original, the other is actually performed well.
04:46:18 <pikhq> True. Trek is fun, but hard sci fi it is not.
04:46:19 <oerjan> i think i saw a star trek episode once, i think it was called "threshold"
04:46:22 <pikhq> Usually it's space fantasy.
04:46:25 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm sorry.
04:46:36 <Vorpal> <pikhq> True. Trek is fun, but hard sci fi it is not. <-- oh come on. I guess it is more niche though
04:46:52 <Vorpal> anyway if I want fantasy I think there are more interesting settings than space ships
04:47:04 <Vorpal> oh and, hard scifi doesn't have to involve space at all
04:47:14 <oerjan> pikhq: just joking, i've seen others too.
04:47:18 <itidus21> but the spaceships have guns!
04:47:23 <oerjan> not that many though.
04:47:26 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm not joking. I'm sorry you had to see that.
04:48:02 <Vorpal> itidus21, and? I find exploring the limits of our scientific understanding far more interesting than any action packed sequence
04:48:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, to be frank I prefer reading books to watching movies
04:48:15 <itidus21> whoever thought of attaching guns to spaceships was a genius :P
04:48:27 <pikhq> I like both.
04:48:44 <Vorpal> books have way better framerate for a start
04:48:50 <Vorpal> (I hate, HATE, 24 FPS)
04:49:14 <pikhq> Where's my god-damned 120 FPS recording? :P
04:49:20 <itidus21> the sad truth being that for a large enough terrestrial plane that star trek could take place on the ground
04:49:34 <Vorpal> pikhq, indeed, though I would be okay with 60 FPS most of the time.
04:49:43 <pikhq> Not 50?
04:50:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, eh, I don't like it when playing games, so why should I like it when watching a movie
04:50:09 <pikhq> itidus21: It'd actually fit rather well translated to a naval setting.
04:50:16 <pikhq> itidus21: With magic.
04:50:39 <oerjan> <itidus21> whoever thought of attaching guns to spaceships was a genius :P <-- if that's genius i take it you consider most software patents genius too.
04:50:40 <pikhq> Trek tech is magic for all intents and purposes anyways.
04:51:25 <pikhq> Also Q.
04:51:34 <Vorpal> Q is terrible
04:51:42 <Vorpal> that is just so clearly magic that it isn't even funny
04:51:53 <pikhq> Funny, Q is generally liked.
04:52:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, what can I say, I don't like magic pretending to be tech
04:52:16 <pikhq> But mostly because of Encounter at Farpoint and All Good Things.
04:52:28 <oerjan> Vorpal: have you even _heard_ of clarke's laws? :P
04:52:29 <Vorpal> "Encounter at Farpoint" sounds familiar
04:52:33 <pikhq> Q is explicitly magic, FWIW.
04:52:37 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes, but that is the other way around
04:52:38 <pikhq> Vorpal: First and last episodes.
04:52:45 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't like it either really
04:53:03 <Vorpal> pikhq, don't think I watched "All Good Things"
04:53:19 <pikhq> Anyways, if you go into Trek expecting hard sci fi you're going to have a bad time. If you go into Trek expecting Fantasy In SPAAAACE you'll probably enjoy yourself.
04:53:33 <Vorpal> but yeah I found the first TNG episode to be terrible, though the saucer separation idea was pretty cool (I think that happened there?)
04:53:53 <pikhq> It was terrible, except for the Q scenes, IMO.
04:53:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, problem is I don't enjoy fantasy in space :/
04:55:50 <Vorpal> in fact I don't enjoy fantasy for the fantasy part of it. I can enjoy it if it is good enough in other aspects. Like a really good story of political intrigue that just happens to be set against a fantasy background.
04:56:18 <Vorpal> magic doesn't really explain it self (obviously) in general
04:56:25 <pikhq> You'd love DS9, I think.
04:56:29 <Vorpal> oh?
04:56:51 <Vorpal> pikhq, why?
04:57:07 <pikhq> Very different feel from the other Treks...
04:57:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, in what way?
04:58:03 <Vorpal> I know it takes place on a stationary station rather than a moving ship
04:58:08 <Vorpal> but apart from that?
04:58:39 <coppro> pikhq: Q was fantastic
04:59:08 <coppro> especially, as you said, Encounter at Farpoint and All Good Things
04:59:35 <coppro> Voyager had the Doctor but also Neelix, so it was a wash
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05:07:02 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was largely based on longer story arcs around warfare and politics, rather than a planet-of-the-week thing.
05:08:53 <Vorpal> pikhq, nice
05:10:14 <pikhq> It's also the polar opposite of what Roddenberry meant for the series, and honestly that's not a bad thing.
05:12:30 <pikhq> One of the main things driving his vision was that: in the future, humans are Perfect Beings.
05:12:34 <pikhq> I shit you not.
05:12:48 <pikhq> As you can imagine, this limits writing somewhat.
05:18:26 <Vorpal> heh
05:19:30 <Vorpal> pikhq, Kirk doesn't behave as a perfect being
05:19:34 <Vorpal> so he failed already in TOS
05:19:43 <pikhq> Vorpal: It was much more a thing in TNG.
05:19:53 <Vorpal> hm... yes
05:20:08 <pikhq> It *really* shows in the first few seasons.
05:20:51 <pikhq> Still, there were many elements of it in TOS.
05:21:03 <Vorpal> haven't watched enough TOS to comment on that
05:26:33 <Vorpal> google.com timing out for me, wtf. Other sites work fine
05:27:08 <Vorpal> oh okay, now it works again
05:36:44 <Vorpal> okay Mirror's Edge is awesome, though quite hard
05:37:09 <pikhq> Yup.
05:37:23 <Vorpal> pikhq, bought it for next to nothing on the current steam sale
05:37:50 <pikhq> Played my then-roommates' copy, who got it at release.
05:38:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, eh you can get it for 2.49 EUR for about an hour until they switch over the sale
05:38:17 <Vorpal> if you want to
05:38:21 <pikhq> Tempting.
05:38:28 <pikhq> Was a good game.
05:38:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, might be a different price in US
05:38:37 <Vorpal> it is the "community choice" thingy
05:38:39 <pikhq> Same OOM no doubt.
05:38:46 <pikhq> The Steam sales are like that.
05:38:46 <Vorpal> which switch over 8 hours
05:38:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, OOM?
05:38:54 <pikhq> Order Of Magnitude.
05:38:59 <Vorpal> ah right
05:39:08 <Vorpal> I heard of cases where there was like a 50% difference
05:39:14 <Vorpal> anyway it is 75% off
05:39:36 <Vorpal> pikhq, I just wish there was a quicksave, at least I haven't found any such feature yet
05:52:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, so what price does Steam report for Mirror's Edge in US?
05:53:18 <Vorpal> if it was correct conversion ratio, $3.059
05:53:21 <Vorpal> or about that
05:53:47 <pikhq> $4.99
05:53:55 <Vorpal> that is quite a difference there
05:54:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, you said same order of magnitude before :P
05:55:07 <Vorpal> well I guess that is accurate in USD
06:02:30 <oerjan> you know orders of magnitude go in steps of *10, right?
06:02:48 <copumpkin> I have two fingers
06:02:55 <copumpkin> my orders of magnitude are in steps of 2
06:05:59 * oerjan tries that "last link in introduction" wikigame we did a while ago starting at "Order of magnitude", is currently at SISAL
06:06:43 <fizzie> Oh ho, I've completely missed that they're having a saleoroid thing.
06:07:52 <oerjan> some steps later, i'm at Free Software Foundation
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06:12:58 * oerjan gets into a loop with Hungarian language
06:16:54 <fizzie> Fate worse than death.
06:18:51 -!- kappabot has quit (Quit: oops).
06:21:43 <itidus21> one would hope so
06:23:20 <itidus21> the ultimate gambler's fallacy is that you can influence your own lifespan
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06:27:16 <itidus21> i don't mean it
06:28:43 <itidus21> so my brother said, when i move out i'm taking the wii.. so my thoughts are... ok shit.. this means i will lose any save data
06:29:21 <itidus21> but if i buy another wii.. he will be like, i haven't moved yet are you trying to tell me something
06:29:50 <itidus21> but whats really weird is that before he said this i wasn't using the wii anyway
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06:35:17 <Vorpal> <oerjan> you know orders of magnitude go in steps of *10, right? <-- yes, and it shouldn't. Besides there could be a currency where it was not true in this case
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06:36:37 <pikhq> Bitcoin? :P
06:37:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, I meant a currency where the one price was like 9 and the other price like 11
06:37:06 <pikhq> Ah.
06:37:30 <Vorpal> itidus21, why would anyone want a wii, or care about a wii? Zelda games aren't that amazing...
06:37:56 <Vorpal> and the older ones can be emulated easily
06:38:24 <fizzie> Uh, that's still in the same order of magnitude by any sensible definition, even if the base used is 10.
06:38:44 <fizzie> Though admittedly they should go in steps of *e, that would be much more natural.
06:39:32 <Vorpal> okay so bitcoin it is then
06:40:01 <pikhq> Nah, base 2 is the most natural base.
06:40:19 <fizzie> It's called the *natural log*, nothing can be more natural than that.
06:55:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, except a supernatural log
06:59:40 <coppro> we should just write everything in base e
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07:19:51 <fizzie> This morning (few minutes ago) I saw a real scientist on the way to work. It was standing in the parking lot, talking to a cellphone, but I know it was a real scientist because it had a lab coat on.
07:20:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
07:22:14 <shachaf> fizzie: Wow!
07:37:25 <itidus21> Vorpal: well i think nintendo games are pretty good... and if i got some AA batteries i can play my brother's wii now..
07:37:39 <itidus21> but the thought of playing those games only to lose my save games seems onerous
07:37:46 <itidus21> but that's me being a perfectionist :D
07:37:53 <itidus21> imperfectly
07:38:04 <itidus21> basically.... .... im an asshole
07:41:29 <Vorpal> itidus21, get your own console then?
07:41:48 <fizzie> There's this game with a new game+ style feature and multiple endings; to see the "final" ending, you'll have to agree to have your save file permanently wiped out. It sounds like kind of a "dick move" to do.
07:42:00 <itidus21> i will.. because the stupid government gave me money
07:42:17 <itidus21> Vorpal: the fact that i don't actually need any advice is what makes me an asshole
07:42:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't know any such games off the top of my head
07:42:49 <itidus21> Vorpal: but... well ... we have you know.. legal wii roms if there is such a thing
07:42:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, I would suggest buying a good gaming PC instead. More expensive sure, but also way better performance
07:43:08 <itidus21> and if there isn't my sentence doesn't make sense
07:43:10 <Vorpal> itidus21, Wii doesn't have ROMs, it has disc images
07:43:18 <Vorpal> so no it doesn't make any bloody sense
07:43:36 <itidus21> ok anyway, some of them are might fine
07:44:11 <itidus21> the very thought of them.. is the same feeling the royals must get thinking of their store of gems and golden crowns
07:44:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: NIER is like that.
07:44:21 <Vorpal> Nintendo's last non-handheld system to have ROM images was N64. Both Gamecube and the Wii have CD drives instead
07:44:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is that
07:44:36 <fizzie> A game.
07:44:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it stand for I mean
07:44:53 <fizzie> http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps3/960449-nier/cheats "Beware that getting ending D will delete all of your save data except the game's system data (the settings save file, not the actual install data) and when creating a new game if you try to name the protagonist the same name you did in your previous game you will be told "Unfortunately, that name cannot be used.""
07:45:00 <fizzie> It even permanently eats the name.
07:45:02 <itidus21> Vorpal: http://www.clipartreview.com/_images_300/Piracy_chest_with_gold_and_a_crown_120227-215262-986009.jpg
07:45:15 <fizzie> It doesn't stand for anything I know.
07:45:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch
07:45:21 <fizzie> I don't know why it's all in uppercase.
07:45:31 <itidus21> that's what it feels like to have a set of legal disc images which never actually get used off in a storeroom
07:45:54 <Vorpal> itidus21, ...? What?
07:46:03 <Deewiant> That's the first time I've seen it in uppercase. Wikipedia has it as "Nier".
07:46:23 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway Dolphin works fine for Gamecube, iirc it can do some Wii games too
07:46:27 <Vorpal> haven't tried that feature of it
07:46:39 <Vorpal> itidus21, if you have a reasonably good PC check that out
07:47:01 <Vorpal> game audio stutters a bit for me when emulating Wind waker on Gamecube though
07:47:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, GameFAQs has it in uppercase, as does the Let's Play I've read, from which all my knowledge about the game in question comes.
07:47:07 <Vorpal> sometimes that is
07:47:16 <Vorpal> mostly when there are too many visual effects
07:47:59 <itidus21> Vorpal: well, i have dolphin and a legal version of zelda windwaker disc image
07:48:08 <Vorpal> okay
07:48:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: And SQUARE ENIX write it in uppercase at http://na.niergame.com/ but, well, they would.
07:48:11 * itidus21 looks around shiftily
07:48:22 <Vorpal> it might be playable with a good enough PC
07:48:35 <fizzie> (Even in body text, I mean.)
07:48:41 <itidus21> Vorpal: im trying to be a good freenoder
07:48:44 <itidus21> :P
07:48:47 <Vorpal> I had to cut back a bit on the antialias
07:48:49 <Vorpal> itidus21, wtf is that
07:48:58 <Deewiant> fizzie: The Japanese tend to do that, it's true.
07:49:00 <itidus21> someone who doesn't pirate things
07:49:26 <pikhq> Bastards basically use case ad hoc.
07:49:40 <pikhq> And spelling.
07:49:48 <Vorpal> Hm I wish GoG did crazy sales like Steam does. :/
07:50:19 <pikhq> I've got an album here named "DocumentaLy". Pronounced "dokyumentarii" because fuck you.
07:50:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, Which language is that in?
07:51:18 <fizzie> I'm losing count of IEEE renewal reminder emails that all have said "Last Chance" in the title. How many last chances can there even be?
07:51:31 <pikhq> Vorpal: Japanese.
07:52:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, Unless that is actually how that spelling is pronounced in Japanese I would just say "fuck you" and pronounce it like it is spelled in English
07:53:00 <pikhq> It basically is what you get if you pronounce it how it would be in English, and convert to Japanese.
07:53:11 <Vorpal> ouch
07:53:19 <Vorpal> what is up with the upper case L?
07:53:37 <pikhq> Japanese doesn't have an "l", it has a phoneme that sounds somewhat like "l" and somewhat like "r" that's usually romanised as "r".
07:54:09 <pikhq> For whatever reason, case is used basically for aesthetics.
07:54:11 <Vorpal> I have a hard time imagining a sound between l and r
07:54:17 <mroman> Highly depending on the speaker though.
07:54:42 <itidus21> Vorpal: i suppose what experience tells me is that ever since the SNES, several bad things happened
07:54:55 <mroman> There are japanese speakers who pronounce just like an l and some other pronounce it like a rolled r and some other again pronounce somewhere in the middle.
07:55:08 <mroman> +it
07:55:38 <itidus21> nintendo controls got too complicated. too many buttons. nintendo basically broke all it's own rules
07:55:47 <pikhq> Vorpal: Postalveolar flap, if it helps.
07:55:47 <itidus21> they forgot their roots
07:56:10 <itidus21> i have spent so much time thinking about nintendo that i can start to see what they are doing wrong
07:56:56 <pikhq> It's the phoneme that maps least well to English phonemes.
07:57:30 <itidus21> language is cool :-s ... this room has been the first place i have started to truely appreciate that
08:00:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, it doesn't help
08:02:24 <itidus21> like, suppose you wanted to created a language to describe moves in street fighter 2.. you might start off with something like this (incomplete)
08:02:47 <pikhq> It's apparently a trilled r that you don't trill.
08:02:52 <itidus21> http://pastebin.com/7fAU7qzj
08:03:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, doesn't help either :/
08:03:31 <Vorpal> what does "trilled r" even mean
08:03:55 <pikhq> Like Spanish.
08:04:05 <Vorpal> I took French
08:04:53 <pikhq> The Japanese "r" is sometimes done that way, too. But it comes across really quite rough.
08:05:02 <pikhq> Like, "I'm going to stab you" rough.
08:05:16 <itidus21> the japanese are really good at sounding rough
08:06:44 <itidus21> (in cartoons i guess)
08:07:15 <pikhq> itidus21: That's generally just standard Japanese, if exaggerated.
08:07:45 <itidus21> i think western animation demonstrates anger through visuals, whereas, anime often uses the voice acting
08:08:23 <pikhq> Which is kinda weird if you look at, say, kabuki.
08:08:24 <itidus21> that subtlety somehow makes it more confronting
08:08:30 <pikhq> It doesn't get more visual than kabuki.
08:08:43 <itidus21> i dunno if i'm right
08:09:13 <itidus21> like i imagine an angry king in a western animation slamming his fist down and making all the objects on the table wobble
08:10:52 <itidus21> im probably just wrong!
08:11:22 * itidus21 steps out of limelight.
08:16:55 <Vorpal> what is "kabuki"?
08:17:19 <pikhq> Vorpal: Kabuki is a form of traditional Japanese theater.
08:17:24 <Vorpal> ah okay
08:18:16 <pikhq> Best known for being *profoundly* dramatic, with elaborate and bright makeup, costuming, and showy movements.
08:19:17 <Vorpal> I see
08:19:23 <itidus21> i must say im interested in japanese theater/theatre
08:19:49 <Vorpal> pikhq, isn't there some sort of theatre style over there (Japan or China) called something that sounds like "no"?
08:19:52 <itidus21> theres also noh (i think its romanized)
08:20:00 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes.
08:20:02 <Vorpal> I just remember some joke from the Discworld books relating to that
08:20:03 <pikhq> Vorpal: Japanese.
08:20:18 <Vorpal> ah okay
08:20:21 <itidus21> maybe just no
08:20:24 <pikhq> I'd prefer to romanise it as Nō, but.
08:20:50 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about a variant that is easy to spell :P
08:21:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Noh" is a fairly typical English spelling.
08:21:12 <Vorpal> good enough for me
08:21:20 <pikhq> Using that weird convention of -h to indicate a long vowel.
08:21:30 <Vorpal> heh
08:21:44 <Vorpal> pikhq, why not do noooooooooooooo
08:22:06 <Vorpal> that is typically used in English to indicate a "no" with a long vowel
08:22:14 <pikhq> Because to do it right you'd write it as "nou".
08:22:21 <Vorpal> then why not do that
08:22:43 <pikhq> Because Japanese romanisation schemes are evil.
08:22:46 <Vorpal> ah
08:23:30 <pikhq> Among other things you need to actually know Japanese to round-trip them to/from kana...
08:24:15 <pikhq> Well, except nihonsiki, but nobody friggin' *uses* that.
08:24:20 <mroman> using nô is not that a good romanisation
08:24:29 <mroman> as you have no idea if that means noo or nou
08:24:40 <pikhq> And they don't handle edge cases anyways.
08:24:48 <pikhq> My form of romanization is best.
08:25:29 <pikhq> If it's representable in kana, it's representable romanized the way I do it.
08:26:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, speaking of romanisation, how do you romanise the capital of China? In Swedish texts I have seen two variants: Peking and Bejing
08:26:11 <Vorpal> that always confused me
08:26:16 <pikhq> ファイナルファンタジー comes out as "huāinaruhuānntasì-"
08:26:19 <mroman> Peking is the german word for Bejing.
08:26:24 <Vorpal> mroman, ah...
08:26:42 <itidus21> heres my answer. it's not pretty though
08:26:46 <mroman> Maybe that term is used in other languages as well
08:26:55 <mroman> but we call it Peking :)
08:27:05 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Peking" and "Beijing" are both correct, but for different reasons.
08:27:09 <Vorpal> pikhq, oh?
08:27:39 <mroman> Peking looks like WG
08:27:48 <Vorpal> mroman, WG being?
08:27:54 <mroman> Wade-Giles
08:27:57 <itidus21> there are often multiple transliteration schemes between two given languages. people who speak the source language have a habit of being picky and arbitrary about how you can respectfully transliterate their language
08:28:01 <Vorpal> mroman, who/what is that?
08:28:15 <mroman> It's a romanization system for Mandarin.
08:28:24 <Vorpal> ah
08:28:30 <pikhq> Vorpal: Basically, two different romanizations.
08:28:30 <mroman> Which would make Beijing -> Pei-ching
08:28:33 <Vorpal> pikhq, ah
08:28:45 <mroman> and I could imagine germanizing Pei-ching du Peking :)
08:28:47 <mroman> *to
08:28:50 <itidus21> if you want to stay on their good side, just use the source characters
08:28:55 <Vorpal> pikhq, which one sounds closest to the real name when you pronounce it in English though?
08:29:01 <pikhq> Vorpal: "Beijing".
08:29:22 <itidus21> this is extremely difficult when it comes to the philippines
08:29:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, and I guess you aren't qualified to answer that question for Swedish, so hrrm
08:29:34 <pikhq> The "Peking" spelling is also weird because it predates a sound change in Mandarin.
08:29:56 <itidus21> theres dozens of different ways to say philippines that are phonetically equivalent, and noone seems to agree what is best
08:30:01 <pikhq> It'd be more like "Peching" otherwise.
08:30:14 <Vorpal> hm
08:30:15 <itidus21> and its the same thing with the word popadum
08:30:37 <itidus21> if you walk into the indian section in a supermarket you will see as many as 12 variants of romanization of popadum
08:30:44 <itidus21> 12 is just a guess
08:30:55 <Vorpal> wtf is "popadum" even?
08:31:01 <mroman> Romanization sucks anyway :)
08:31:10 <Vorpal> also I didn't know supermarkets had indian sections
08:31:14 <pikhq> If it makes you feel better, pinyin replacing the traditional sometimes-adhoc romanizations of place names *officially* is fairly recent.
08:31:30 <itidus21> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papadum
08:31:31 <Vorpal> pikhq, is that the Bejing one?
08:31:39 <mroman> Even if something is romanizated (? is that the word for it?) you still have no clue how to spell it.
08:31:51 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yeah, "Beijing" is the pinyin one.
08:31:56 <Vorpal> ah
08:31:56 <itidus21> Vorpal: look specifically at "Alternative names for papadum"
08:32:18 <itidus21> now, suppose you are trying to use the "correct" word when talking to indians :P
08:32:37 <Vorpal> hm
08:32:50 <itidus21> safer just to hold one quietly and point to it i expect
08:32:58 <pikhq> Take systematic pinyin (which, though imperfect, is at least a systematic representation of Mandarin's pronunciation), remove the tone marks, and you get "Beijing".
08:33:13 <Vorpal> heh
08:33:14 <pikhq> Making it as correct as you can get if you don't feel like or can't type the tone marks.
08:33:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, or don't know what they mean even :P
08:33:33 <pikhq> Yes.
08:33:47 <itidus21> some people do get offended if you don't use their preferred romanization
08:33:51 <mroman> How does china call itself actually?
08:34:21 <itidus21> therefore it's really best where possible to use the source characters so theres no ambiguity, if you can :D
08:35:23 <pikhq> mroman: Officially? 中华人民共和国, Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó
08:35:42 <pikhq> mroman: Typically? 中国, Zhōngguó
08:36:10 <mroman> They use both versions of 国 in the official name?
08:36:14 <itidus21> another pesky one is tao vs dao
08:36:51 <itidus21> a fun one is kung fu vs gong fu
08:37:00 <mroman> or is that another character because my font seems to lack it :(
08:37:14 <pikhq> mroman: Yes, 共和国 is "Republic", if it has the same meaning as in Japanese...
08:37:33 <pikhq> (which it should, being kango)
08:37:39 <mroman> 國国 I have both versions in my font though.
08:37:51 <pikhq> Oh.
08:38:05 <pikhq> The earlier one is simplified 華.
08:38:11 <mroman> 中华人 <- but I don't have the one in the middle here.
08:38:58 <itidus21> infact, on the wikipedia page about Papadum, at least half the page seems to discuss the word itself X_X
08:39:04 <mroman> unicode han character flowery
08:43:04 <pikhq> It's nearly 3, and I am still awake.
08:43:06 <pikhq> I hate future me *so much*!
08:43:51 <mroman> I hate past me, now me and future me.
08:53:03 <itidus21> past me kept me alive, don't have much to say about now me ..
08:53:26 <itidus21> future me has a great burden of responsibility
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09:18:04 <AnotherTest> Hello
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09:28:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, what does the long version of the name for China mean?
09:30:46 <pikhq> Vorpal: "People's Republic of China"
09:31:52 <pikhq> Well. A bit more literally "China People's Republic"
09:32:31 <pikhq> (this assumes the Chinese maps well into the analogous Chinese-origin words in Japanese, which seems a safe bet, given how much sense that makes.)
09:35:40 <Vorpal> ah
09:38:56 <fizzie> "Kiinan kansantasavalta" is the Finnish version of the official name. (I don't know if it's the official Finnish version of the official name, or whether one actually exists. They might not have cared.)
09:41:21 <mroman> and that translates to?
09:44:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the official Finnish name of Finland, and what does it translate to?
09:46:15 <Vorpal> pikhq, I just realised what would be awesome to watch, a perfect playthrough of Mirror's Edge
09:46:54 <mroman> American TV is insteresting.
09:47:40 <mroman> Oww.
09:47:45 <mroman> Yeah, now I got it.
09:50:13 <fizzie> mroman: Pretty much the same thing. "[China's] [people's-republic]" if you want to be literal about it.
09:51:19 <fizzie> I don't know if we have a more impressive name for ourselves than just "Suomi". I guess "Suomen tasavalta" (Republic of Finland) might be.
09:51:36 <fizzie> That's what's on top of the infobox at http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi
09:51:46 <Vorpal> heh
09:51:58 <fizzie> (Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland for that matter.)
09:52:34 <fizzie> Still, I don't recall offhand seeing the "republic of" bit written anywhere. Perhaps in some very formal text.
09:53:17 <fizzie> Oh, the president is sometimes referred to as "Suomen tasavallan presidentti", I guess.
10:00:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, I believe Sweden is technically "The Kingdom of Sweden", but no one calls it that except in very formal texts
10:01:29 <AnotherTest> Belgium is "The Kingdom of Belgium" too, and I think that's on my passport
10:01:59 <fizzie> We kind of toyed with the idea of electing a king, back when Finland was being founded.
10:02:20 <fizzie> They even selected a German guy to be the king.
10:03:19 <Vorpal> what really? A German guy? Why
10:03:44 <fizzie> There were some ties to imperial Germany, I don't really know the details.
10:03:47 <AnotherTest> The first belgium king wasn't belgium either
10:03:54 <fizzie> Tried to get some syngery going on then.
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10:04:35 <fizzie> Then World War I ended and there was a coup in Germany and they went from an empire to a republic, and the king thing was kind of given up.
10:05:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Finland_%281918%29 has a reasonably short summary.
10:06:02 <fizzie> "Governmental archives reveal that the monarchical designation of the king was intended, at least tentatively, to be 'Charles I, King of Finland and Karelia, Duke of Åland, Grand Duke of Lapland, Lord of Kaleva and the North'".
10:06:06 <fizzie> That's the best bit.
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10:08:51 <Vorpal> heh
10:10:17 <fizzie> Now we have no royalty to write scandalous articles of in the tabloids. :/
10:10:53 <fizzie> Didn't you have some trouble with your current king or something?
10:11:30 <fizzie> Last year or so.
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10:16:22 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Incidentally, I'm temporarily in Belgium right now.
10:16:47 <fizzie> Our local news have to cover Swedish/Norwegian/Danish royalty since we don't have our own.
10:17:37 <AnotherTest> fizzie: What city are you in?
10:19:29 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Didn't you have some trouble with your current king or something? <-- yeah
10:19:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, for a start he is dyslexic.
10:20:06 <Vorpal> But the problem you refer to was something different
10:24:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some sort of a scandal.
10:24:49 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Leuven. But we've visited Brussels, Brugge, Knokke, Luxembourg (okay, so that's not quite Belgium) and have train tickets for a day trip to Antwerpen for next Saturday still.
10:25:00 <AnotherTest> fizzie: at the university?
10:25:11 <fizzie> Yes, visiting the local speech group for a month.
10:25:13 <AnotherTest> fizzie: if so, it's a 5 minutes walk to me :)
10:25:49 <fizzie> Heh, that's close.
10:25:58 <AnotherTest> Very close.
10:26:06 <fizzie> Our hotel/apartment thing is next to the Heverlee railway station.
10:26:13 <AnotherTest> Oh, yes I know that
10:26:22 <AnotherTest> That's a bit further though
10:26:38 <AnotherTest> (however I live in Heverlee, but very close to the campus of the KUL)
10:26:51 <fizzie> Oh, right, when I say "the university" I mean this ESAT building, it's here in Heverlee, next to that castle A-something.
10:27:08 <AnotherTest> Yes, I walk to that castle sometimes
10:27:31 <AnotherTest> Have you seen the IMEC tower construction yet :p?
10:28:40 <AnotherTest> Also, the caste name is Aarenberg
10:29:07 <AnotherTest> s/AA/a
10:29:25 <AnotherTest> But there is another castle in the woods
10:29:31 <AnotherTest> like 100 meter from where I live
10:29:56 <AnotherTest> It's not as big though
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10:30:00 <fizzie> Seems to be lot of castles, yes. There were signposts for two when we went to Zoete Waters for a bit of walking.
10:30:14 <fizzie> I walked past the IMEC building when I was first trying to locate the Alma 3 restaurant, but didn't pay enough attention to notice any special towers, if that's where it is.
10:30:21 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Heh, that's close. <--- you should totally visit Hexham some time
10:31:09 <AnotherTest> Well, they're still building it. But I think it's at the other side of imec, you can only see the cranes
10:31:12 <AnotherTest> (from there)
10:32:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: We kind of considered that on the last trip to London a while ago, but it would've been a bit far away.
10:32:14 <fizzie> Maybe some other year.
10:32:14 <Vorpal> aww
10:32:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, who are "we" here?
10:33:51 <fizzie> Well, me and my wife; we tend to do vacation trips together, after all. (Also for some reason she wasn't that keen of seeing Hexham, the esoteric programming language capital of UK, if I recall correctly.)
10:34:15 <nortti> :P
10:34:22 <AnotherTest> Hehe
10:34:44 <AnotherTest> fizzie: are you really going to eat in the Alma?
10:35:14 <AnotherTest> Well, if you're lucky it's okay but... at times it's horrible
10:35:17 <fizzie> I've done it a couple of times already. Why not? They even give me the personnel price.
10:35:23 <AnotherTest> (well so I have heard)
10:35:37 <fizzie> We had a bit of fun with their English lunch menu, though.
10:35:53 <AnotherTest> They have an English lunch menu?
10:35:53 <fizzie> There were "meat trees" and "tree trunks from Hungarian castles", if I recall correctly.
10:35:59 <AnotherTest> haha
10:36:08 <fizzie> It's at http://www.alma.be/eng/alma_3/menu_thisweek.php
10:36:19 <fizzie> No meat trees this week.
10:36:54 <AnotherTest> don't take the vol-au-vent
10:37:01 <fizzie> I wasn't going to.
10:37:03 <AnotherTest> It's probably not going to be good
10:37:10 <fizzie> The sandwiches have been reasonably reasonable.
10:37:23 <Vorpal> So I purchased Mirror's Edge today, and suddenly the "Recommended" tab on steam went crazy and started suggesting Tomb Raider games. Why
10:38:12 <fizzie> There's a jumpy lady in Tomb Raider games too, I suppose.
10:38:14 <AnotherTest> fizzie: I heard those are fine, yes
10:38:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess... But the games play nothing similar from what I understand
10:39:05 <fizzie> I wouldn't know, thought I've seen the very first Tomb Raider game being played.
10:39:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is third person right?
10:39:34 <Vorpal> while Mirror's Edge is first person
10:39:43 <fizzie> There could be a first-person camera mode, I'm not sure.
10:39:54 <fizzie> But it does have at least some third-personness in it.
10:40:16 <Vorpal> all of the in-engine cutscenes are done in first person too.
10:40:29 <Vorpal> (there are some cell shaded cutscenes that are third person)
10:41:21 <Vorpal> awesome game btw
10:43:44 <itidus20> i like the way going by screenshots that it tries to give the most realistic visual field-within your visual-field view that it can
10:46:21 <itidus20> normal people dont seem to think of it that way
10:46:44 <fizzie> I see the current eight-hour community deal is Skyrim at half price.
10:48:52 <FireFly> blah
10:49:24 <FireFly> I was set on buying Mirror's Edge at the -75% price, but I must've forgot about it last night..
11:33:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes it was mirror's edge before
11:33:15 <Vorpal> also I voted for deus ex: hr this time around
11:33:45 <Vorpal> itidus20, that stuff varies based on how fast you move
11:34:11 <Vorpal> as in, you get less sharp depth area when you are moving fast
11:34:25 <Vorpal> also more radial blur I think
11:34:42 <Vorpal> FireFly, anyway the game is awesome, you really missed out
11:35:28 <Vorpal> really hard too
11:35:40 <Vorpal> looks stunning, thanks to it's unique art style
11:35:42 <Vorpal> gah thunderstorm, bbl
11:37:59 <olsner> <Vorpal> <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next <-- how did you find it? <-- through /r/programming
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11:40:18 <VorpalPhone> Hi
11:40:22 <nortti> hi
11:40:48 <nortti> what kind of phone is vorpalphone?
11:40:50 <VorpalPhone> Thunderstorm and the sun is shining...
11:40:56 <FireFly> <olsner> <Vorpal> <olsner> ooh, someone is making an esolang! http://blog.r-wos.org/2012/up-next <-- how did you find it? <-- through /r/programming <-- in case you missed it, VorpalPhone
11:41:28 <VorpalPhone> FireFly: thanks
11:42:05 <VorpalPhone> nortti: one that goes snicker snack
11:42:46 <VorpalPhone> Also a Samsung Galaxy S3
11:43:47 <VorpalPhone> So there you go.
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11:46:46 <VorpalPhone> Phantom_Hoover: what is up with the last bit of your cloak?
11:47:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Dunno.
11:47:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Blame whoever set it.
11:47:16 <VorpalPhone> Hm ok
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12:58:17 <nooga> uuugh
12:58:32 <nooga> x86-64 opcodes are confusing
12:59:08 <nooga> i'm trying to write a small, specialized assembler
13:00:02 <olsner> bah, not much more confusing than x86 in general :)
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13:01:42 <olsner> I built a small x86-64 assembler generation monad in haskell a while ago, might remember some of the instruction encoding weirdnesses
13:03:13 <olsner> one of the "nice" weird things is that a rex prefix (with none of the new bits set) changes the meaning of the byte registers, so that ah/bh/ch/dh become sil/dil/bpl/spl
13:03:30 <olsner> (in some order)
13:05:09 <fizzie> It is indeed a funny.
13:05:17 <nooga> like
13:05:18 <nooga> uh
13:05:33 <nooga> 48 89 e5 -> movq %rsp, %rbp
13:05:53 <nooga> ok, 89 is MOV, e5 is this craxy modR/M byte which makes sense
13:05:59 <nooga> what's 48 then?!
13:06:07 <olsner> 48 sets the operand size to 64-bit
13:06:11 <olsner> it's the REX prefix
13:06:25 <olsner> (with the 64-bit bit set)
13:06:52 <nooga> oh, i thoght that was implied
13:07:04 <olsner> so 89 e5 would be mov ebp,esp
13:07:19 <fizzie> The REX.W bit set.
13:07:26 <olsner> ... and the default is 32-bit operand size in long mode
13:07:37 <olsner> (but the address size is 64-bit by default)
13:08:14 <nooga> ok, that's sane
13:08:44 <fizzie> olsner: The default operand size without REX.W is 32 bits -- except when it isn't, e.g. for push, pop.
13:08:56 <olsner> I liked the term "64-bit bit" better :)
13:09:37 <olsner> hmm, so for push and pop, setting REX.W means 32-bit operand size?
13:09:48 <fizzie> It doesn't mean anything.
13:09:52 <fizzie> They don't do 32-bit operand size.
13:10:07 <nooga> huh
13:10:26 <nooga> i use this for reference: http://ref.x86asm.net/coder64-abc.html#P
13:10:28 <fizzie> In long mode, that is.
13:10:50 <nooga> but sometimes it's hard to decipher what should I actually generate in some cases
13:12:20 <olsner> that table is quite long, probably 98% of it is instructions you're not generating anyway :)
13:12:27 <nooga> true
13:12:33 <nooga> and hard to browse
13:13:12 <fizzie> The Intel manual isn't too bad, though you have to jump quite a lot around between the instruction descriptions and the modRM/SIB encoding specifics.
13:13:15 <nooga> headers should stay on top and I'm too lazy to print the whole thing together with cheatsheets
13:13:22 <olsner> fizzie: is REX.W defined to be a no-op for push/pop then? what a waste of bits :/
13:13:57 <fizzie> olsner: I don't have the manuals on this box, so I don't know if it's a no-op or just undefined something. But there's no encoding of PUSH r32 in long mode.
13:15:03 <nooga> e8 5d 00 00 00 -> callq 0x100000ea3
13:15:05 <nooga> DAFUQ?
13:15:07 <olsner> at least modRM/SIB is reusable for many instructions, so you might get away with writing generic code that handles it without jumping back and forth too much
13:15:34 <nooga> I think I will make dafuq mnemonic for something
13:15:45 <olsner> nooga: what? it's a normal call
13:16:01 <olsner> it takes a 32-bit relative offset
13:16:25 <nooga> oh right
13:16:37 <nooga> but now it does not have 48 thing
13:16:54 <olsner> unfortunately, AMD and Intel didn't agree on the meaning of call with a 16-bit address size prefix, so there's no call with a shorter encoding than that
13:18:47 <fizzie> olsner: If you were somehow weird, you could argue that the call should zero high bits of RIP unless you add a REX.W prefix.
13:19:13 <fizzie> I mean, it's operating on 64-bit registers there, surely you'd want to be explicit about that.
13:19:30 <olsner> yeah, you could... but I think they explicitly gave all control-transfer opcodes special rules
13:20:14 <olsner> but I think you can do both call eax and call rax
13:20:37 <nooga> meh
13:20:44 <nooga> I don't like this mess
13:22:00 <olsner> hmm, actually, according to that huge table of instructions long mode only has call r/m64
13:22:36 <fizzie> I'm trying to open intel.pdf, but apparently a gigabyte of memory is not enough.
13:23:00 <mroman> the specs?
13:23:09 <fizzie> It's the combined manual, volumes 1-3.
13:23:14 <mroman> Well
13:23:19 <mroman> your fault ;)
13:24:25 <olsner> hmm, so long mode has far calls (m16:64), doesn't seem very useful
13:24:40 <fizzie> Yes, "CALL r/m32" is "N/E" for 64-bit mode.
13:25:14 <fizzie> olsner: There's still call gates.
13:25:24 <fizzie> "In 64-bit mode: If selector
13:25:25 <fizzie> points to a gate, then RIP =
13:25:25 <fizzie> 64-bit displacement taken
13:25:25 <fizzie> from gate; else RIP = 64-bit
13:25:25 <fizzie> offset from far pointer
13:25:27 <fizzie> referenced in the
13:25:29 <fizzie> instruction.
13:25:34 <fizzie> (Description of CALL m16:64.)
13:26:34 <olsner> oh, there was a note attached to callf: AMD64 Architecture Programmer's Manual Volume 3: "If the operand-size is 32 or 64 bits, the operand is a 16-bit selector followed by a 32-bit offset." (On AMD64 architecture, 64-bit offset is not supported)
13:27:49 <olsner> hmm, but your text implies that intel does have m16:64? heh
13:27:53 <fizzie> "The operand-size attribute determines the size of the offset (16, 32, or 64
13:27:59 <fizzie> bits)".
13:28:29 <fizzie> And it lists "REX.W + FF /3" as the encoding for call m16:64.
13:28:56 <olsner> nooga: apparently you need to back up your use of that table with reading both Intel and AMD64 manuals to make sure it's correct
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13:29:56 <fizzie> They don't have a CALL ptr16:64, i.e. the direct far call with a 64-bit offset, though.
13:30:13 <fizzie> Are you sure that's not what the AMD manual is saying?
13:30:19 <fizzie> I don't want to open that *too*.
13:30:38 <olsner> too lazy to actually refer to the manual right now, that quote is from the page-with-the-table
13:31:08 <fizzie> Oh. Okay. I was just wondering, since it says "the operand is selector + offset" and not something like "the operand is a reference to" or "pointer to" or whatever.
13:31:50 <fizzie> Though I suppose it's not, since the whole ptr16:32 thing is listed as invalid in 64-bit mode.
13:32:07 <olsner> well, if it's a memory operand, "the operand" is the thing stored over there in memory? at least that would be one way to use the terms
13:32:16 <fizzie> Guess so.
13:34:01 <nooga> olsner: where's the manual?
13:34:30 <olsner> somewhere on the web sites of the respective companies :P
13:34:35 <fizzie> You can follow the links from http://pastehtml.com/view/bsruyd6oe.html
13:34:44 <fizzie> It has both AMD and Intel ones.
13:34:59 <nooga> thx
13:35:04 <fizzie> Intel's combined manual PDF has only 4181 pages, it's nice light reading.
13:35:13 <olsner> fizzie: are you on ##asm? is it a good channel?
13:35:36 <fizzie> Of course it's not, it's a freenode programming channel.
13:35:50 <fizzie> Mostly it's silence punctuated with stupid questions.
13:36:26 <olsner> oh, I'd have hoped assembly programming had enough of a barrier to sort out the stupid questions
13:36:31 <fizzie> Perhaps approximately three "conversations" per day or so.
13:36:50 <nooga> #esoteric is the best channel on freenode
13:36:51 <oonbotti> Nothing here
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13:37:46 <nortti> ok. so it was good idea to not use #esoteric command on oonbotti to span ascii goatse
13:37:50 <fizzie> Sometimes there are non-stupid questions. But it's still quite a quiet place.
13:37:55 <nortti> *spam
13:39:18 <olsner> I wonder why they kept the call gates in amd64
13:39:26 <fizzie> olsner: Here's an example question for you, to estimate the level: <Matthias|PC> I mean, if I copy 4 bytes to the eax registry, and then copy another 4 (using mov), will the first 4 be replaced or can EAX "store" 2 * 4 bytes?
13:39:44 <olsner> o.O
13:39:47 <nortti> ....
13:40:24 <olsner> how did he think that would work?
13:40:24 <fizzie> I also remember something similar about storing a string in a register. They were wondering if there's any kind of limit when you put a string in there.
13:40:32 <nortti> ....
13:40:49 <nortti> are assembly programmers really this stupid nowadays
13:42:15 <fizzie> olsner: <Matthias|PC> I'm not sure I get Assembly.. so I would appreciate it strongly if you guys could help me, what exactly is the point of using MOV? I get that you copy data, but why would you do that? Also, EAX is a 32 bit registry, but does that mean it can contain 4 bytes max at once, or multiple times 4 bytes?
13:42:34 <fizzie> olsner: <Matthias|PC> I mean, is MOV faster than for example, copying a var in C++ or so?
13:42:51 <nortti> ...
13:42:53 <nortti> ....
13:43:02 <fizzie> That kind of stuff.
13:43:09 <olsner> Right.
13:44:04 <nortti> (quote < olsner> I wonder why they kept the call gates in amd64) why not? is there a better replacement?
13:44:53 <olsner> I think syscall was supposed to be the One True entry to kernel mode
13:45:49 <nortti> hmm. Wouldn't interrupt work?
13:46:24 <olsner> yes, but interrupts (and call gates, for that matter) are as I understand it much slower than syscall
13:47:30 <fizzie> olsner: I would think call gates are still there to cater for the same people who are running operating systems that use all four privilege levels too.
13:49:01 <nortti> does syscall only support 2?
13:49:08 <olsner> I suppose... or for OS:es that extensively use call gates in their 32-bit ABI, and need to support 32-bit on 64-bit
13:50:01 <fizzie> syscall is I believe only useful for the usual ring 0 / ring 3 split.
13:50:34 <olsner> they could've added a "attempt to call a call gate from 32-bit" entry-point similar to syscall, that 64-bit oses need to implement if they use it
13:51:45 <olsner> or just reserve the opcode and call the undefined instruction interrupt when old code tries to use it :)
13:53:13 <fizzie> I think User Mode Linux did some trickery that involved ring 1/2. Or maybe Xen before the hardware-supported virtualization days. Something, anyway.
13:53:26 <fizzie> http://lwn.net/Articles/13868/ so hacky.
13:57:56 <olsner> interesting
13:58:19 <fizzie> I don't think that thing was ever used for anything at all.
13:58:53 <nortti> also it can't be used on many other archs
13:59:49 <olsner> oh well, I guess they need the call gates to support pure 32-bit code running on 64-bit processors anyway
14:01:38 <fizzie> Ho, coLinux has still received updates in 2011. That's also such a kludgey-feeling thing.
14:02:29 <nortti> coLinux....
14:02:45 <fizzie> It's the thing where you run a Linux kernel alongside a Windows in ring 0.
14:02:51 <nortti> what?
14:03:00 <fizzie> Yes.
14:03:15 <fizzie> There's a Windows driver you install, and that takes care of negotiating things.
14:03:18 <olsner> heh, their screenshots have them running Cygwin/XFree86 to display stuff running in coLinux
14:03:29 <fizzie> And the Linux kernel has been patched to be extra careful.
14:03:30 <nortti> :P
14:03:44 <fizzie> Yeah, it doesn't do any direct hardware access from the Linux side.
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14:03:57 <fizzie> Since that'd confuse the Windows.
14:04:17 <fizzie> Or maybe you can allocate some devices for Linux-exclusive use, but anyway.
14:05:01 <olsner> does coLinux run in linux too?
14:05:18 <fizzie> I don't know. I thought it was Windows-only.
14:05:22 <nortti> that'd be interestingg
14:05:34 <fizzie> It reminds me of the MkLinux setup I had; that one runs a Linux kernel as a single thread in the Mach microkernel. People do the weirdest things.
14:06:01 <nortti> what version is mklinux on nowadays?
14:06:28 <nortti> fizzie: what kind of hw did you use?
14:06:40 <fizzie> "Latest stable release: Pre-R2 / 2002-08-05" says Wikipedia. I think it was the same back when I fiddled with it.
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14:07:22 <nortti> I mean linux kernel version
14:08:22 <fizzie> 2.0.thirty-something, I believe.
14:08:26 <nortti> ok. found it. it has 2.0 kernel
14:08:29 <nortti> oh
14:08:49 <fizzie> And I ran it on a Performa... 5260? Something like that.
14:09:01 <nortti> does it run anything else than nubus ppc macs?
14:09:52 <fizzie> I think it runs on PCI PPC things too.
14:10:11 <fizzie> Though you could probably run a regular PPC Linux on those.
14:10:40 <fizzie> At least on some.
14:10:49 <nortti> nah. normal ppc linux is not strange enough
14:11:48 <fizzie> I don't think NuBus PowerMacs can generally speaking really run anything else than MkLinux; at least, it was the only thing I could make working on my Performa.
14:11:56 <fizzie> For some values of "working", anyway.
14:12:18 <nortti> oh. there are ports for intel, PA-RISC and ppc
14:13:46 <nooga> I love "Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools"
14:14:15 <nortti> why?
14:16:17 <nooga> they explain an algorithm, give an example and a bit of pseudocode that's riddiculously high-level and then leave You to figure out details and jump between figures and snippets spread all over the chapter
14:17:38 <nooga> and it's still amusing
14:18:20 <nortti> how high-level?
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14:21:45 <nooga> like an abstract algebra textbook sprinkled with for ... in ... and if ... then keywords :P
14:22:06 <nooga> and the actual code examples are mainly in C
14:22:08 <nooga> ;D
14:22:09 <nortti> :P
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14:23:01 <nooga> i saw 3 pseudocode listings that'd fit on a single page
14:23:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/ddci
14:23:30 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.2
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14:24:42 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/WQUE
14:24:46 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 59.7
14:24:52 <nooga> "OK, let's implement this in C" i thought and I suddenly end up with my own implementation of HashSet and several other utilities to back up the actual algorithm
14:25:17 <nooga> which is like 100LOC itself
14:25:37 <nortti> :P
14:26:26 <mroman> I sell haskell as pseudo-code
14:26:41 <mroman> nobody knows haskell so nobody complains that it is not actual pseudo-code :)
14:27:02 <nortti> haha :P
14:27:08 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/VQTd
14:27:11 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 59.3
14:27:48 <mroman> !bfjoust muh_again (>+>-)*4>[>][-][<][+]
14:27:51 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_muh_again: 1.3
14:28:21 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/JQYR
14:28:24 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 60.4
14:28:28 <mroman> !bfjoust muh_again (>+>-)*4([>][-])*50
14:28:31 <EgoBot> ​Score for mroman_muh_again: 1.3
14:28:54 <mroman> Not knowing how big the tape is is somewhat awkward.
14:28:56 <nooga> haskell actually compiles to C
14:29:08 <mroman> nooga: Well
14:29:10 <mroman> no
14:29:11 <mroman> and
14:29:12 <mroman> yes
14:29:20 <mroman> it can compile to c.
14:29:27 <nooga> oh
14:29:33 <mroman> but it also has a native backend.
14:30:47 <nooga> I could retype the listings in haskell and obtain C form and then write glue in C :D
14:32:24 <nooga> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Calling_Haskell_from_C like here
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15:41:08 <AnotherTest> nooga: and the actual code examples are mainly in C < and Java
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15:46:34 <AnotherTest> nooga: you don't happen to have solutions to any of the exercises somewhere? That would be nice :D
16:03:12 <itidus20> http://imgur.com/gallery/JGn2l because i can't get enough of this
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18:59:10 <oerjan> <nooga> haskell actually compiles to C
18:59:35 <copumpkin> certain compilers compile haskell to C
18:59:47 <copumpkin> the biggest one does so very reluctantly
19:00:15 <oerjan> actually the efficient C backend in ghc has been discontinued, there's still a slow portable one for assisting porting
19:00:23 <copumpkin> yeah
19:00:53 <oerjan> i guess jhc may compile to C?
19:01:08 <copumpkin> yeah, it does
19:03:04 <kmc> the efficient "C" backend didn't really produce C
19:03:24 <oerjan> afaik the current efficient ghc backends are llvm and native code
19:03:39 <nooga> AnotherTest: i think i don't have the solutions
19:03:53 <kmc> it produced eldritch horrors accepted by certain versions of GCC, and then post-processed the assembly output with a thousand line perl script called the Evil Mangler
19:04:00 <kmc> so yeah I think everyone is happy to be rid of that
19:04:38 <oerjan> so does ghc contain any perl still?
19:05:03 <kmc> not sure
19:05:15 * oerjan googles
19:05:17 <kmc> i heard there was a much smaller mangler for LLVM
19:05:26 <oerjan> ah
19:05:30 <kmc> but they may have got the necessary features into mainline LLVM and done away with that too
19:05:42 <kmc> relating to tables-next-to-code optimization, iirc
19:05:54 <kmc> which i can explain if anyone would like to hear about it
19:06:28 * oerjan knows more or less
19:06:42 <AnotherTest> nooga: :(
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19:08:32 <nooga> i'm seriously thinking about writing these algorithms in haskell and then interfacing with C code
19:08:45 <kmc> Haskell's FFI is nice and simple
19:08:48 <kmc> you should do it
19:08:59 <kmc> well, you should consider it seriously anyway
19:09:15 <kmc> getting complex data structures between the two languages is still a pain
19:09:20 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/browser/driver/split/ghc-split.lprl seems to still be used, the module object splitter
19:09:22 <kmc> largely because C sucks at complex datastructures
19:09:31 <nooga> uh
19:10:12 <nooga> i'd try to design it in such way that i just input a tree and get a directed graph with labels
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19:10:49 <oerjan> kmc: isn't that when one is supposed to use one of the libraries for whycantiremembertheword
19:11:03 <nooga> and haskell would take care of walking the trees, building sets, mangling sets and making sets of sets
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19:11:35 <oerjan> serialization
19:11:56 * oerjan has never used the ffi anyway
19:12:07 <oerjan> *directly, i suppose
19:12:44 <kmc> nooga: what algorithm is this
19:15:35 <nooga> building a deterministic finite automaton straight from a regexp's parse tree
19:16:06 <nooga> and then minimizing the number of states of that automaton
19:17:09 <nooga> well, not exactly a regexp but I'm just basing on that algorithm because my concept has many similarities
19:17:14 <kmc> ok
19:17:41 <kmc> oerjan: serializing to a byte stream is a different problem from marshalling to C data structures in memory
19:17:46 <kmc> though you can solve the latter with the former
19:17:57 <kmc> less efficiently
19:18:18 <kmc> you know your interface can be that Haskell writes a blob of JSON into a C string and then C parses it
19:18:29 <nooga> bodgy
19:21:18 <kmc> whatsat
19:21:52 <nooga> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bodgy
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19:23:40 <nooga> i got that word from watching Dave Jones' EEVlog
19:24:24 <kmc> yeah
19:24:27 <kmc> ok
19:24:37 <kmc> it is a hack, but it might also be the quickest way to Get Shit Done
19:27:29 <kmc> i strongly believe that using multiple languages often makes sense for getting shit done
19:27:45 <kmc> but this requires minimizing the effort overhead of interoperation
19:28:14 <kmc> which usually means picking simple, standard, text-based data formats
19:30:04 <kmc> the currently trendy school of webapp design is all about using many languages on many machines interacting through loose text-based protocols
19:30:19 <kmc> a lot of it is unnecessary, but i still think it's a good principle overall
19:30:23 <nortti> like?
19:32:14 <kmc> you have your frontend app, your batch processing daemons, your database(s), your caching servers, etc.
19:32:24 <kmc> and they all communicate over some message bus, or just JSON over HTTP
19:32:39 <kmc> one interesting recent trend is to extend this down to the client
19:33:30 <kmc> rather than generating and serving HTML, you serve up a static Javascript application which talks to the same JSON APIs as everything else
19:34:12 <kmc> and produces DOM nodes client-side using a Javascript MVC or such
19:34:16 <kmc> i don't really know this world
19:34:20 <kmc> but as an outsider, that sounds like a good idea
19:36:50 <AnotherTest> nooga: I was just making those exercices about deterministic finite automata
19:37:45 <AnotherTest> anyway, bye!
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20:32:57 <mroman> kmc: It also reduces the complexity and payload of your webapp.
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20:33:16 <mroman> and it completele removes the design of the webpage
20:33:30 <mroman> and your webapp is completely loose from html at all.
20:33:50 <mroman> that makes it easier to port to other stuff.
20:37:21 <kmc> i don't know what you mean by "removes the design of the webpage"
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20:37:33 <kmc> you still need design if you want it to look good
20:38:01 <kmc> it's just that the HTML (or DOM nodes) are produced by client-side javascript rather than server side
20:39:19 <mroman> It removes the design of the webpage from the server side.
20:39:34 <mroman> As well as the html structure.
20:39:41 <kmc> from the server side logic, yes
20:39:49 <kmc> but hopefully you are separating logic from presentation anyway
20:39:52 <mroman> well
20:40:02 <kmc> the design is still something you serve, of course
20:40:03 <mroman> You can't in a traditional application.
20:40:14 <mroman> If your server serves html, then you are bound to that.
20:40:38 <kmc> no, you separate logic from presentation by using HTML templates and a MVC layer
20:40:42 <mroman> You can seperate it in the logic of your server side code as good as you can
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20:42:33 <kmc> c0wpumpkin
20:44:02 <copumpkin> m00
20:48:26 <mroman> ムー
20:59:32 <pikhq_>
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23:30:07 <oerjan> something tells me she wasn't in our channel's target group
23:32:25 <nortti_> really?
23:41:28 <Slereah> You never know
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23:51:27 <kallisti> `fetch file:///etc/group
23:51:34 <HackEgo> file:///etc/group: Unsupported scheme `file'.
23:52:06 <quintopia> haha
23:52:23 <zzo38> kallisti: Just use cp; if that won't work then there would be no reason for file: to work either.
23:52:39 <kallisti> fetch isn't in the umlbox
23:52:43 <kallisti> whereas cp is
23:55:23 <zzo38> Then perhaps they do not want you to be able to access file outside of the umlbox
23:55:55 <quintopia> zzo38 has a point, you know
23:57:50 <kallisti> zzo38: I had never considered that.
23:58:06 <kallisti> I thought Gregor wanted me to access arbitrary files from the host filesystem.
23:58:15 <kallisti> makes sense now.
23:58:45 <quintopia> zzo38 the Wise
2012-07-18
00:09:38 <FireFly> `fetch me a sandwich
00:09:40 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `me a sandwich'
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00:51:48 <oerjan> `welcome nshelton
00:51:52 <HackEgo> nshelton: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:52:03 <nshelton> cool
00:52:48 <oerjan> bit quiet this evening
00:53:16 * quintopia hands oerjan a bullhorn o=<
00:54:00 * oerjan blows the bullhorn
00:54:03 <oerjan> _____ ___ ___ _____
00:54:03 <oerjan> |_ _/ _ \ / _ \_ _|
00:54:03 <oerjan> | || | | | | | || |
00:54:03 <oerjan> | || |_| | |_| || |
00:54:03 <oerjan> |_| \___/ \___/ |_|
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00:55:19 <quintopia> you blew mdude right out of the channel
00:55:34 <oerjan> temporarily
00:56:29 <quintopia> well i suspect if you'd kept blowing it could have held him off
00:56:38 <oerjan> MAYBE
00:56:42 <kmc> TRAAAAAIN
00:57:00 <oerjan> BRAAAAAINS
00:57:08 <quintopia> GRAAAAAIINS
00:57:12 <oerjan> oh wait, you said train, never mind
00:57:37 * oerjan goes back to gnawing on someone's leg
01:00:15 <shachaf> kmc: So what does TRAAAAAIN mean?
01:01:14 <kmc> it means TRAAAAAIN
01:01:25 <shachaf> kmc: Did you try saying it in that other channel?
01:01:28 <kmc> there is some channel where a bot will print an ASCII train if you say that
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01:01:35 <kmc> i did not try it yet
01:01:36 <shachaf> Ah. Yes. That channel.
01:01:51 <shachaf> kmc: They actually have three bots.
01:02:02 <shachaf> Each of them prints only a few lines of the train.
01:02:03 <kmc> otherwise it would flood
01:02:05 <kmc> yeah
01:02:08 <shachaf> Yep.
01:02:26 <shachaf> They also respond to TERRAAAAAIN and PLAAAAANE and other things.
01:02:38 <oerjan> BOOOOOAT?
01:02:39 <shachaf> Ask lexande. lexasknde
01:02:57 <shachaf> oerjan: Nope.
01:03:01 <kmc> PLANTAAAAAIN
01:03:02 <oerjan> aww
01:03:04 <shachaf> Yes.
01:03:20 <oerjan> SPAAAAAIN
01:03:28 <shachaf> I think I tried that.
01:03:55 <shachaf> The RAAAAAIN in SPAAAAAIN STAAAAAYS MAAAAAINLY in the PLAAAAAIN
01:04:14 <oerjan> EXPLAAAAAIN
01:04:55 <oerjan> urricanes ardly hever appen
01:06:53 <oerjan> Likewise, it is considered technically incorrect that hurricanes ever in fact happen in Hertford, Hereford, or Hampshire (in the UK), as the only hurricane force (≥64 knot) winds occurring in these areas are due to extratropical cyclones which, in spite of having hurricane force winds, are not strictly speaking hurricanes due to their different physical causes and dynamics.
01:07:00 <oerjan> thank you, wikipedia.
01:07:33 <shachaf> Wait, so if they never appen, it means they don't ardly hever appen?
01:07:50 <oerjan> hobviously
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01:12:28 <kallisti> `run du -hd0 .git
01:12:31 <HackEgo> du: invalid option -- 'd' \ Try `du --help' for more information.
01:12:32 <kallisti> `run du -hd0 .hg
01:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> <shachaf> The RAAAAAIN in SPAAAAAIN STAAAAAYS MAAAAAINLY in the PLAAAAAIN
01:12:35 <HackEgo> du: invalid option -- 'd' \ Try `du --help' for more information.
01:12:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's 'FALLS' you MORON
01:12:38 <kallisti> `run du -h -d0 .hg
01:12:42 <HackEgo> du: invalid option -- 'd' \ Try `du --help' for more information.
01:12:48 <kallisti> wtf kind of du is this
01:13:17 <kallisti> `run du -hc .hg | tail -n 1
01:13:21 <HackEgo> 33M.total
01:14:37 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
01:14:39 <oerjan> NOPE
01:15:31 <shachaf> @karma vim/emacs/notepad
01:15:31 <lambdabot> vim/emacs/notepad has a karma of 1
01:15:34 <shachaf> kmc: Good editor, right?
01:15:53 <kmc> AM I RITE?!?!?!?!?!?!?
01:16:03 <kmc> penis balls
01:16:20 <oerjan> @karma pico
01:16:21 <lambdabot> pico has a karma of 0
01:17:14 <oerjan> @karma teco
01:17:15 <lambdabot> teco has a karma of 0
01:17:24 <oerjan> *Gasp*
01:17:27 <oerjan> teco++
01:18:24 <shachaf> kmc: You should invent an esolang called ++C
01:18:41 <shachaf> And then complain to people that ++C/C++ is undefined behavior.
01:18:47 <oerjan> like C++, but more proactive
01:19:02 <kmc> haha
01:19:47 <shachaf> proäctive
01:23:33 <Gregor> #esoteric: Channel of diaeresis marks.
01:25:43 <oerjan> indeëd
01:26:10 * oerjan hopes Gregor isn't in a foül moöd
01:26:16 <shachaf> ïndëëd
01:26:24 <shachaf> Oops, that was too many.
01:26:33 <shachaf> ındėėd
01:27:03 <oerjan> it's a small step for man, a great step for unicodë
01:27:38 <shachaf> üṅıċȯḋė
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01:37:29 <kallisti> what do I want to set COLORTERM to if I want 16-bit color
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01:43:22 <kallisti> Gregor: what's the default user when running inside umlbox
01:43:34 <kallisti> and what's the best way to change that.
01:45:17 <Gregor> The default user within umlbox is an imaginary user with the same ID as the host user, and the nature of UML makes that effectively impossible to change while still allowing any filesystem access at all.
01:45:40 <kallisti> ah okay
01:46:45 <kallisti> is the imaginary user in the same groups as the original? From my playing around with umlbox, it seems as though the sandbox user is always considered "other" within hostfs mountpoints.
01:49:22 <kallisti> `ls --color
01:49:24 <HackEgo> ​.[0m.[01;34mbin.[0m \ canary \ foo \ karma \ .[01;34mlib.[0m \ .[01;34mpaste.[0m \ quotes \ .[01;34mshare.[0m \ .[01;34mwisdom.[0m
01:57:03 <zzo38> Gregor: Did you write any musics recently? What programd have you used for such things? Do you know of PPMCK?
01:57:16 <Gregor> zzo38: Only acoustic, none as they were acoustic, no.
01:57:52 <zzo38> Gregor: Using what instruments?
01:59:13 <Gregor> My digital piano. (OK, not really acoustic, but effectively acoustic)
02:05:23 <pikhq> You should definitely push it as "electronic". :)
02:07:26 <zzo38> I sometimes play piano, although when I write music I want to write music on paper using standard musical notation or on computer using MML.
02:08:28 <zzo38> What model of digital piano?
02:09:31 <kallisti> `ls logs
02:09:34 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access logs: No such file or directory
02:09:44 <kallisti> `ls
02:09:47 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
02:11:38 <kallisti> `run paste "`which paste`"
02:11:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30276
02:12:01 <zzo38> Did you put this music on the computer? Do you have other musical instruments? Did you ever use any non-12-TET?
02:14:27 <kallisti> Gregor: I'm currently writing a hackbot clone using my perl bot instead of multibot and git instead of hg
02:14:36 <kallisti> and then seeing if I can do daemons.
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02:22:22 <zzo38> I have recently written some cover of music, using an improved version of PPMCK, to make .NSF music.
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03:09:29 <Sgeo_> tswett, monqy update
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03:23:37 <tswett> Thank you.
03:45:30 <oerjan> finally they have started updating monqy again!
03:56:02 <kallisti> Gregor: my current IRC sandbox thing uses one git repo. it doesn't clone the repo on each command. Is this a bad idea? Why did you set it up that way with hackbot?
03:56:27 <Gregor> kallisti: So that simultaneously running commands can't interfere.
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03:56:40 <kallisti> ah I see.
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04:02:30 <kallisti> I'm not actually sure if my bot handles commands simultaneously or not. if it does it's part of the perl library I'm using.
04:02:50 <kallisti> I think it does, it just gives the appearance of sequential operation by buffering the output.
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04:51:10 <kallisti> Calico: hi
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04:51:15 <Calico> kallisti: Hello there.
04:52:17 <oerjan> `welcome Calico
04:52:21 <HackEgo> Calico: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
04:52:40 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, did you see the update?
04:52:45 <Phantom_Hoover> That I did.
04:53:10 <zzo38> Calico: Do you like this???????????
04:53:26 <Calico> If you're talking about excess quotation marks then no.
04:53:30 <Calico> Question, even
04:53:40 <Calico> I'm so tired, I'm going to leave in a minute anyway.
04:54:52 <zzo38> OK
05:22:42 <oerjan> wtf
05:23:09 * oerjan tried registering on ghc trac but couldn't understand the captcha :(
05:24:33 * oerjan slides away, robotically
05:29:01 <zzo38> "Someone who sacrifice Liberty for Security deserves neither." -Benjamin Franklin
05:38:40 * oerjan makes his first reddit comment instead.
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05:39:00 <kmc> noooooo
05:39:22 <oerjan> kmc: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/wp70x/lambdacase_and_multiway_if_added_to_ghc_head_for/c5fn688?context=1
05:39:40 <oerjan> i had to point it _somewhere_ :(
05:39:43 <oerjan> *it out
05:41:43 <oerjan> basically we now have the dangling if from hell :P
05:43:08 * oerjan realizes this means he's going to feel obliged to vote on stuff now
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06:47:27 <kallisti> so
06:47:28 <kallisti> guys
06:47:31 <kallisti> I made
06:47:33 <kallisti> an esolang
06:50:54 <coppro> so.
06:51:09 <coppro> the fact that all monoids have coequalizers is far more interesting
06:52:44 <zzo38> coppro: What does it mean?
06:52:56 <zzo38> What is a coequalizer?
07:02:07 <copumpkin> you know what an equalizer?
07:02:08 <copumpkin> is
07:03:03 <zzo38> Actually I don't know that either
07:05:05 * kallisti comes to #esoteric
07:05:08 * kallisti announces esolang.
07:05:16 * kallisti is ignored for maths.
07:05:22 <copumpkin> aww
07:05:25 <kallisti> :_(
07:05:39 <zzo38> kallisti: What esolang did you make?
07:05:48 <kallisti> zzo38: can you read perl?
07:05:56 <kallisti> I have a reference interpreter in perl.
07:05:56 <zzo38> Somewhat.
07:06:22 <zzo38> I am writing a music!
07:06:24 <kallisti> it's based off of dupdog, in some ways.
07:06:36 <pikhq> We couldn't have the channel be *on topic*, now could we?
07:06:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait shit those guys in that one Simpsons episode in France were called Ugolin and Cesar?
07:06:42 <Phantom_Hoover> HOW DID I NEVER KNOW
07:06:47 <zzo38> kallisti: OK and in what way?
07:06:50 <kallisti> but more-to-the-point, at the sacrifice of possibly being turing complete
07:07:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: no esolang talk for [0] days | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:07:28 <Phantom_Hoover> (dammit kallisti)
07:07:38 <kallisti> zzo38: a character in the source code is interpreted as a command; the command modifies the source code. the process repeats.
07:08:01 <kallisti> in dupdog, the first character in the source is interpreted as a command. in dogless, it's the character after the first ]
07:08:30 <kallisti> (there's only one interpreter. no alternating interpreters.)
07:09:06 <zzo38> OK
07:10:25 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/JGVg?perl current source. I haven't fully tested it.
07:11:23 <kallisti> another difference is that commands can have character arguments. > and < are substition commands
07:11:49 <kallisti> >ab substitutes the first a that occurs after the command for b
07:12:02 <kallisti> <ab substitutes /all/ the a's the occur before the ] marker with b's
07:13:49 <kallisti> ? reverses the source, ~ duplicates the source. ^ swaps everything on the left with everything on the right. abc[^def becomes def[abc
07:14:39 <kallisti> ! deletes everything on the left. abc[!def becomes [def
07:15:44 <kallisti> [ removes everything up to and including the next ]
07:15:50 <kallisti> ][this is ignored]!
07:15:55 <kallisti> becomes [!
07:16:26 <kallisti> (or the end of the string if there's no matching ])
07:16:46 <kallisti> anything else is just moved from one side of the ] to the other. abc[def becomes abcd[ef
07:17:57 <kallisti> if there's no ], the program terminates, and the output is the source code.
07:20:17 <zzo38> OK
07:33:06 <itidus20> Phantom_Hoover: ahh the exchange student program where bart learns french.. yeah
07:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Except now I realise it's a really blatant reference to the villains of Jean de Florette.
07:34:50 <itidus20> simpsons is littered with references...
07:35:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, but that one surprised me.
07:35:43 <itidus20> i was flicking a library book about animation and discovered that there is infact a "jolly little elves"
07:35:47 <itidus20> or something like that
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08:00:57 <kallisti> so yeah, I guess I should make a wiki page.
08:01:41 <kallisti> and maybe attempt to do something interesting with it.
08:02:28 <kallisti> I don't see any other kind of arithmetic besides unary being feasible really.
08:04:18 <soundnfury> dunno, you might be able to shuttle back and forth somehow, with substers at each end
08:04:45 <soundnfury> (and ?s)
08:04:50 <kallisti> oh btw I changed < so that it works like >
08:04:53 <kallisti> only one substition is made
08:05:09 <soundnfury> oh
08:05:11 <kallisti> I guess the asymmetry could be useful somehow
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08:34:04 <kallisti> 11|11[]<|1<1]
08:34:22 <kallisti> this entirely uninterested dogless program takes 2 numbers specified in unary and seperated by |'s
08:34:26 <kallisti> and adds them together
08:34:30 <kallisti> the result is: 1111
08:39:32 <kallisti> $ echo -n '11|11[]<|1<1]' | scripts/Dogless.pl -d | sprunge
08:39:44 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/Ldbc
08:41:05 <kallisti> unary arithmetic has never been so exciting.
08:42:25 <itidus20> Beer: Helping to make unary arithmetic exciting since 1862!
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09:39:13 <nooga> meh
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10:51:48 <itidus20> one thing i don't like about linguistics is when well-meaning people tell things that are 90% true
10:54:15 <itidus20> if people liked speaking in languages which have a 1 to 1 correspondance with a definition they could just go to latin
10:57:06 <itidus20> "is "but" an interjection? not in english" "my friends use "but" as an interjection, are my friends speaking english? your friends are idiots" "(defeated face)"
10:57:53 <olsner> it is an interjection when you use it as one
10:58:37 <itidus20> "have your friends published anything? why? if they publish something using but as an interjection we can reference it in OED"
10:59:13 <itidus20> "actually wait.. that alone won't be enough.. but it will be a leg up"
10:59:55 <itidus20> olsner: must be
11:00:34 <olsner> I would say that every word can be used as an interjection
11:00:47 <itidus20> i think english interjection but is equivalent to japanese ka particle :D
11:01:11 <itidus20> no wait
11:01:17 <itidus20> its not indicating a question always
11:01:18 <olsner> kedo?
11:01:53 <itidus20> ive heard it used as slang in australia :P
11:02:23 <itidus20> sorta like "i gotta go" "yeah, how come but?"
11:04:38 <itidus20> i think i don't understand linguistics nearly well enough to have a clue whats happening there
11:12:24 <mroman> ka is not really an interjection I'd say.
11:12:36 <mroman> It's a question marking particle if used at the end of a sentence.
11:14:23 <olsner> I remember reading that question marking particles are more common than using word sequence or intonation to mark questions
11:15:53 <mroman> yes
11:16:15 <mroman> Are you a dog. You are a dog.
11:16:23 <mroman> That's what you mean by word sequence?
11:16:30 <mroman> You can't do that in japanese.
11:16:51 <mroman> You can't just switch the position of the verb.
11:17:54 <nortti> in finnish you add usually add suffix -ko when doing that. (For example "Sinä olet koira" -> "Oletko sinä koira")
11:18:14 <olsner> word order is kind of fluid in japanese as I understand it, but in english you can't switch freely because it might make your statement a question
11:18:50 <mroman> That's the point, yes.
11:18:58 <mroman> Are you a dog is clearly a question
11:19:17 <mroman> You are a dog could be a question but it's usually just a statement.
11:19:32 <olsner> You're a dog!?
11:19:39 <mroman> The word order in japanese is subject object verb
11:20:10 <mroman> The verb always comes at the end.
11:21:13 <mroman> and a correct sentence does not need a subject neither an object.
11:21:18 <nortti> best channel name ever: #!/bin/mksh
11:24:29 <olsner> ah, here it is: http://wals.info/feature/116A
11:28:15 <mroman> oh
11:28:18 <mroman> you meant globally
11:30:08 <mroman> http://wals.info/feature/49A?s=20&z3=3000&z4=2999&z5=2998&z2=2997&z7=2996&z8=2995&z9=2994&z6=2993&z1=2992&tg_format=map&v1=cfff&v2=cffc&v3=cff0&v4=cfc0&v5=cf40&v6=cd00&v7=ca00&v8=c000&v9=dfff
11:30:12 <mroman> interesting.
11:39:35 <Vorpal> 20 MB/s download speed... How I wish that was not only on a server I'm sshed to atm.
11:39:48 <Vorpal> (that is megabyte)
11:39:53 <Vorpal> (not megabit)
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12:05:47 <fizzie> 100%[=======================================================================>] 177,209,344 81.9M/s in 2.1s
12:05:51 <fizzie> That's in bytes too.
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12:15:37 <olsner> Vorpal: fizzie wins
12:25:18 <itidus20> to me, video:audio::c:haskell
12:28:24 <fizzie> olsner: Sadly, it's all due someone else. (It was on my workstation at work.)
12:28:47 <fizzie> At home-work, to be specific. Wait, that sounds wrong too.
12:29:43 <olsner> the workstation in your working-from-home office?
12:31:57 <fizzie> The workstation at the place of work where I usually am, as opposed to this current temporary location.
12:32:11 <fizzie> But it's not quite "home" in the normal sense.
12:32:36 <fizzie> @wn home
12:32:36 <lambdabot> *** "home" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:32:36 <lambdabot> home
12:32:36 <lambdabot> adv 1: at or to or in the direction of one's home or family; "He
12:32:38 <lambdabot> stays home on weekends"; "after the game the children
12:32:40 <lambdabot> brought friends home for supper"; "I'll be home
12:32:42 <lambdabot> [43 @more lines]
12:32:46 <fizzie> Bleh.
12:33:03 <olsner> your work-away-from-work?
12:33:14 <fizzie> 5. (2) base, home -- (the place where you are stationed and from which missions start and end)
12:33:24 <fizzie> I guess that sense sort of matches.
12:33:36 <fizzie> If I take the view that I'm currently on a "mission".
12:34:02 <fizzie> They do pay me some daily allowance cost-of-living kind of thing for the duration of this trip.
12:35:57 <olsner> a per-diem?
12:39:16 <fizzie> Yes.
12:39:19 <fizzie> Exactly that.
12:39:24 <fizzie> I didn't know there was a word for it.
12:39:28 <fizzie> @wn per-diem
12:39:28 <lambdabot> No match for "per-diem".
12:39:31 <fizzie> Huh.
12:39:36 <fizzie> @wn perdiem
12:39:37 <lambdabot> No match for "perdiem".
12:39:41 <fizzie> (Typo.)
12:39:43 <fizzie> @wn per_diem
12:39:43 <lambdabot> No match for "per_diem".
12:39:58 <fizzie> Weird thing. The WordNet at the aforementioned workstation knows about it.
12:40:24 <fizzie> $ wn per_diem -over
12:40:24 <fizzie> Overview of noun per_diem
12:40:24 <fizzie> The noun per diem has 1 sense (no senses from tagged texts)
12:40:24 <fizzie> 1. per diem -- (a daily allowance for living expenses (especially while traveling in connection with your job))
12:40:28 <fizzie> See.
12:40:47 <fizzie> It's Release 3.0 too.
12:40:55 <olsner> oh, of course it's not written with a hyphen in english
12:41:05 <fizzie> Maybe the lambdabot hookup doesn't do the underscore that the command line interface does.
12:41:05 <nortti> http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/12/07/17/205255/anti-piracy-group-fined-for-using-song-without-permission
12:41:08 <fizzie> @wn per diem
12:41:09 <lambdabot> No match for "per".
12:41:09 <lambdabot> No match for "diem".
12:41:16 <fizzie> @wn "per diem"
12:41:17 <lambdabot> *** "per diem" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
12:41:17 <lambdabot> per diem
12:41:17 <lambdabot> adv 1: one every day; "we'll save 100 man-hours per diem" [syn:
12:41:17 <lambdabot> {per diem}, {by the day}]
12:41:17 <lambdabot> n 1: a daily allowance for living expenses (especially while
12:41:19 <lambdabot> traveling in connection with your job)
12:41:20 <fizzie> There.
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12:57:26 <itidus20> newly announced jfeg (joint forum experts group) compression scheme uses data such as what a person's source of income is to predict their comments during flame wars
13:00:10 <nortti> how?
13:00:33 <nortti> also do you have link?
13:01:10 <itidus20> header includes field containing location of first hitler reference in thread
13:02:48 <itidus20> nortti: sorry, it only exists in my imagination
13:03:51 <nortti> oj
13:05:12 <itidus20> i said it cos i read this
13:05:18 <itidus20> "So we don't need to discuss this anymore. Copyright infringement is "THEFT" http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/cyber/ipr"
13:05:37 <itidus20> and i had to vent somehow
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15:06:32 <nooga> um
15:06:56 <nooga> does somebody know how to recover files in OS X?
15:07:18 <nortti> fsck?
15:19:04 <sebbu> mv ~/.Trash/$file $file
15:21:54 <nooga> i've lost whole project when trying to import it into Xcode
15:22:20 <nooga> how the hell am I supposed to find C sources on this goddamn partition
15:22:26 <nooga> deleted C sources
15:27:17 <ion> I hate it when people rob my thoughts and don’t leave me with a copy. :-(
15:27:21 <ion> s/with //
15:28:11 <nooga> nortti: what do you mean fsck?
15:28:33 <nortti> I have recovered files from broken fs with it
15:33:04 <nooga> FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU
15:33:16 <nooga> i will reimplement this shit
15:33:18 <nooga> fine
15:34:01 <ion> Does it have something called Time Machine? I’m not familiar with it, i’ve just heard the name. Filesystem snapshots, i presume.
15:37:15 <fizzie> You need to make those happen, I believe.
15:38:07 <fizzie> And I think conventionally you do those on a separate volume.
15:38:13 <fizzie> Or a Time Capsule.
15:49:48 <itidus20> it sounds like the program name fsck is a play on the word fuck, but applying to file systems
15:51:33 <nortti> file system check
15:52:01 <itidus20> no, it means fuck
15:52:09 <itidus20> :P
15:52:16 <itidus20> @google fsck
15:52:17 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fsck
15:52:18 <lambdabot> Title: fsck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
15:52:43 <itidus20> O_o The system utility fsck (for "file system check") is a tool for checking the consistency of a file system
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16:16:18 <itidus20> you guys sure like foo, isn't foo just bar?
16:17:33 <itidus20> i mean the world was just fine before foo
16:18:04 <itidus20> maybe i am just thinking too homeostasis
16:18:15 <itidus20> not progressive enough
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16:19:07 <itidus20> it's almost as if the main payoff of foo is the ability to appreciate foo
16:19:34 <itidus20> maybe it's just me
16:20:27 <itidus20> ;
16:20:46 <itidus20> youse fellers sure dig foo, ain't foo just like bar?
16:21:51 <itidus20> foo is probably just a product of the industrial age
16:22:09 <itidus20> i guess i can't cope with change
16:25:38 <FireFly> you can't order beer from a foo
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16:39:54 <nooga> shmoo
16:40:02 <nooga> i've lost the project
16:40:14 <nooga> 3 KLOC
16:40:16 <nooga> UHH
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16:45:07 <nortti> Yay. my minidistro is now ready. Complete size is under 4MB (including build system, sources, patches and binaries). It includes toybox, sash, my own crappy init and mksh
16:45:47 <Gregor> Not small enough to fit on a floppy disk.
16:45:53 <Gregor> Not even a superformatted one.
16:46:36 <nortti> well is it build staticaly against glibc. next step is swich to musl
16:46:50 <nortti> also just binaries it 2.3MB
16:47:43 <Gregor> Mmmm.
16:47:52 <nortti> *is
16:48:27 <nortti> and mksh can be replaced with heirloom-sh if needed
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17:09:59 <itidus20> nooga: what you need now is, not to realize anything in particular, but to act in accordance with the understanding that the project is gone (unless it isn't, which it is)
17:10:41 <itidus20> last few words wrong
17:19:09 <nooga> it will be fun
17:19:15 <nooga> i will make it better
17:19:17 <nooga> naaah
17:19:20 <nooga> fml
17:19:38 <nortti> why?
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17:55:15 <epicmonkey> FireFly: can you hang out at the foo till 5am?
17:56:23 -!- Gregor has set topic: no foo talk for [0] days | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
17:58:43 <itidus20> theres nothing good on tv
18:01:06 -!- lament has joined.
18:01:20 <lament> WHAT NOW
18:15:45 <itidus20> now.. we chat
18:16:28 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:16:44 -!- MDude has joined.
18:17:18 <lament> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
18:18:35 <MDude> AHHHHHHHHHH
18:19:14 <itidus20> idea!
18:22:39 <MDude> Also, did anythig happen while I was disconnected that caused lament to screeam "no" or was that a response to nothing happening?
18:26:09 <itidus20> <lament> WHAT NOW <itidus20> now.. we chat <lament> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
18:26:55 <MDude> It's even worse than I thought!
18:28:35 <itidus20> no... it's even worse yet
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18:30:07 <itidus20> because this picture shows my idea.. http://oi46.tinypic.com/3466l1w.jpg
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18:32:34 <itidus20> the idea being to simulate someone, possibly with a mouse interface, playing a motion sensor console such as wii, psmove, or kinect
18:33:18 <nooga> huh
18:33:40 <itidus20> so you click and drag the figures arm up..
18:33:48 <nooga> what's the difference between JL and JB instructions?
18:34:01 <itidus20> and the swordsman in turn drags it's arm up
18:34:03 <nooga> less vs below
18:35:53 <itidus20> if you use a physics engine, you could make it so that the wiimote can be dropped if you move it too fast
18:36:09 <itidus20> or you could simulate having to replace the batteries
18:36:47 <itidus20> also input lag!
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18:37:39 <oerjan> <itidus20> if people liked speaking in languages which have a 1 to 1 correspondance with a definition they could just go to latin
18:37:51 <oerjan> latin isn't actually a logical language. hth.
18:38:03 <itidus20> oh !
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18:38:51 <Taneb> Hello
18:38:58 <MDude> Make it a web application that can work in the PS3's and/or the Wii's browser.
18:38:58 <oerjan> hi Taneb
18:38:58 <itidus20> im basically trying to argue there against pedantry for pedantry sake
18:39:20 <Taneb> I'm in Durham
18:39:20 <MDude> Not sure if the former can take the psmove as a mouse input.
18:40:03 <itidus20> humm.. i suppose that pedantry serves the subtle purpose of preventing the language changing too quickly
18:40:54 <itidus20> but, we can let them think they are just trying to teach
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18:41:17 <itidus20> Ahahahahha
18:41:35 <oerjan> <olsner> I would say that every word can be used as an interjection <-- horsefeathers
18:41:44 * oerjan slides away, paradoxically
18:41:59 <olsner> hogwash!
18:42:22 <Sgeo_> When I was a kid, I thought the word "Hallelujah" came from the School House Rock song
18:42:56 <oerjan> nah it comes from handel
18:43:05 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e24kdjdbtw
18:44:16 <oerjan> <itidus20> i think i don't understand linguistics nearly well enough to have a clue whats happening there <-- ask augur, then you'll get even more confused :P
18:44:54 <itidus20> i have heard the word used that way but
18:45:29 <itidus20> now i think its something more sinister than a mere interjection
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18:45:44 <itidus20> perhaps it's a but shift
18:46:02 <oerjan> <olsner> I remember reading that question marking particles are more common than using word sequence or intonation to mark questions <-- /me vaguely recalls that italian has intonation, but drops it if there is a question word
18:46:54 <oerjan> it's just a nice but
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18:47:51 <oerjan> lament was here? and i managed to chase him away without even knowing.
18:48:32 <nortti> who is lament
18:49:17 <olsner> lament is lament
18:49:52 <oerjan> nortti: an esolanger of old times. also technically still an op here.
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18:50:17 <olsner> oh, I thought he was a haskeller more than an esolanger
18:50:46 <oerjan> i don't know if lament is a haskeller, i don't recall him from my time in #haskell
18:51:03 <oerjan> (which is getting a long time ago, anyway)
18:51:10 <oerjan> *becoming
18:51:54 <olsner> yes, I don't think I've ever seen you in the haskell channels
18:52:36 <oerjan> i think i was top 5 or 6 speaker in #haskell in 2008 or thereabouts.
18:53:06 <olsner> wow
18:53:33 <olsner> I think I might've been in #haskell around 2008
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19:02:32 <Taneb> Hello again
19:07:09 <Taneb> @ping
19:07:09 <lambdabot> pong
19:07:19 <nortti> @pång
19:07:20 <lambdabot> pong
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19:21:05 <Gregor> Removing google-chrome-stable ...
19:21:05 <Gregor> dpkg: unrecoverable fatal error, aborting:
19:21:05 <Gregor> fork failed: Cannot allocate memory
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19:21:09 <Gregor> Sometimes Google is downright evil.
19:21:48 <nortti> how?
19:22:15 <nortti> also why are you removing chrome?
19:22:50 <Gregor> I'm just trying to switch to my distro's packaged version instead of Google's.
19:23:04 <nortti> oh
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19:25:19 <Gregor> Bahahaha, I quit Firefox, then Chrome could be uninstalled.
19:26:17 <nortti> :P
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19:30:50 <Taneb> what is your favourite l system
19:31:09 <Taneb> I'm using my voice recognition
19:33:30 <Gregor> My favorite l system is l.
19:33:53 <Taneb> L-system
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19:34:20 <kmc>
19:34:25 <kmc> £
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19:34:40 <Taneb> :(
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19:46:33 <coppro> Taneb: L-system?
19:46:53 <Taneb> zt
19:46:57 <Taneb> bah
19:47:17 <Taneb> string rewritinh system
19:47:30 <Taneb> see Luigi on the wiki
19:47:35 <coppro> ah
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19:55:56 <oerjan> Taneb: 0 -> 01, 1 -> 10 has a certain nostalgy for me.
19:58:49 <Taneb> Thue-morse sequence
19:59:03 <Taneb> ?
19:59:19 <oerjan> indeed, my advisor liked to use it as example
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20:05:56 <Taneb> How can I say what the thue morse sequence
20:06:23 <Taneb> is in about two minutes?
20:07:01 <oerjan> well first you give the above substitution
20:07:06 <oerjan> then you just write
20:07:06 <oerjan> 0
20:07:07 <oerjan> 01
20:07:09 <oerjan> 0110
20:07:11 <oerjan> 01101001
20:07:18 <oerjan> 0110100110010110
20:07:58 <oerjan> and in the limit, you get an infinite sequence that is the substitution applied to itself.
20:09:07 <copumpkin> > fix ((>>= \x -> case x of '0' -> "01"; '1' -> "10") . ('0':))
20:09:10 <lambdabot> "01011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001...
20:09:29 <oerjan> you might then point out that it's non-periodic, but every finite subsequence occurs with bounded gaps.
20:09:50 <oerjan> (which is what made it fit into the framework of my advisor)
20:10:26 <oerjan> (although for that you also need to extend it infinitely leftwards as well. there are two ways of doing so.)
20:10:45 <oerjan> either mirror, and mirror _and_ switch 0's and 1's.
20:10:56 <oerjan> *or mirror
20:11:40 <oerjan> uniform recurrence was the term for those bounded gaps
20:13:37 <oerjan> and the fact that there were two ways of extending leftwards meant that a tweak had to be made later when constructing the infinite diagrams.
20:14:44 <Taneb> Thanks
20:15:33 <oerjan> copumpkin: your sequence looks wrong.
20:16:02 <oerjan> > fix (('0':) . (>>= \x -> case x of '0' -> "01"; '1' -> "10") . tail)
20:16:06 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
20:16:09 <oerjan> wat
20:16:21 <oerjan> oh duh
20:16:37 <oerjan> > fix (("01"++) . (>>= \x -> case x of '0' -> "01"; '1' -> "10") . tail)
20:16:39 <lambdabot> "01101001100101101001011001101001100101100110100101101001100101101001011001...
20:16:58 <oerjan> oh hm
20:17:09 <kallisti> also known as the "generic binary sequence in movies and television"
20:17:11 <oerjan> > fix ((>>= \x -> case x of '0' -> "01"; '1' -> "10") . ('0':) . tail)
20:17:13 <lambdabot> "01101001100101101001011001101001100101100110100101101001100101101001011001...
20:17:18 <oerjan> kallisti: it is? :P
20:17:21 <copumpkin> oerjan: what's wrong with it?
20:17:31 <kallisti> well, it reminds me of it.
20:17:36 <kallisti> it has enough variation.
20:17:42 <kallisti> to be just arbitrarily chosn 1's and 0's
20:17:43 <oerjan> copumpkin: you need to drop the 0 off before adding it again
20:17:56 <copumpkin> oerjan: nah, it's the same as yours except all concatted together, from what I can see?
20:18:07 <copumpkin> break it up into power-of-two chunks
20:18:36 <copumpkin> maybe I'm wrong :)
20:18:38 <oerjan> copumpkin: um it's _one_ infinite sequence of digits, not a sequence of sequences
20:19:20 <copumpkin> oh well I misunderstood then :P
20:20:11 <oerjan> copumpkin: you want a sequence that is a fixpoint of (>>= \x -> case x of '0' -> "01"; '1' -> "10"), but fix isn't lazy enough so you must help it along by choosing the first element, which ('0':) . tail does
20:20:42 <oerjan> without the tail, the result isn't a fixpoint of the original sense
20:20:59 <kallisti> so here's an idea for a language:
20:21:01 <kallisti> Y sed
20:21:09 <kallisti> a sed program with itself fed as input
20:21:25 <kallisti> iterated until the output is the same in X iterations.
20:22:45 <oerjan> <kallisti> to be just arbitrarily chosn 1's and 0's <-- you see that it isn't when you split it into some power of 2 chunks, though
20:23:03 <kallisti> well of course it's not "arbitrary" (whatever that even means in a technical sense)
20:23:35 <kallisti> I guess all binary sequences sound like "generic binary sequence from TV or movie"
20:23:48 <oerjan> another way of constructing it is to xor all the bits of the index position
20:24:36 <kallisti> Y sed is turing complete no? it's iterated regex.
20:24:53 <nortti> reminds me of ///
20:25:03 <oerjan> kallisti: i have heard that iterated sed is TC somehow, anyway
20:25:26 <kallisti> the difference here being that the source code is the input and the output
20:26:05 <olsner> sed can replace in a loop, it even has conditional jumps, so it's obviously TC
20:26:36 <kallisti> it seems like when you start forcing the source to be the input and output weird things start happening with its computational class. I somehow think that dogless isn't TC.
20:27:28 <oerjan> > [ chr . foldl1' ((xor .) . ord) . flip (showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit) "" | n <- [0..]]
20:27:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a'
20:27:30 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Ty...
20:27:36 <oerjan> too optimistic
20:27:41 <oerjan> oh
20:28:00 <oerjan> > [ chr . foldl1' ((xor .) . ord) $ showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit n "" | n <- [0..]]
20:28:01 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a'
20:28:01 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Ty...
20:28:10 <oerjan> hmph
20:28:12 <oerjan> oh
20:28:17 <kallisti> precedence?
20:28:19 <oerjan> > [ chr . foldl1 ((xor .) . ord) 0 $ showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit n "" | n <- [0..]]
20:28:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a -> a'
20:28:21 <lambdabot> against inferred type `GHC.Ty...
20:28:32 <kallisti> oh nevermind
20:28:42 <oerjan> now what
20:28:53 <oerjan> :t (xor .) . ord
20:28:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `f a' against inferred type `Int'
20:28:54 <lambdabot> Expected type: Char -> f a
20:28:54 <lambdabot> Inferred type: Char -> Int
20:29:01 <oerjan> oh
20:29:15 <kallisti> :t xor
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20:29:16 <lambdabot> forall a. (Bits a) => a -> a -> a
20:29:19 <copumpkin> :t xor `on` ord
20:29:20 <lambdabot> Char -> Char -> Int
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20:29:27 <copumpkin> :t chr .: xor `on` ord
20:29:29 <lambdabot> Char -> Char -> Char
20:29:35 <oerjan> > [ chr . foldl1 (flip xor . ord) 0 $ showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit n "" | n <- [0..]]
20:29:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
20:29:36 <lambdabot> against inferred type...
20:30:03 <oerjan> :t flip xor . ord
20:30:05 <lambdabot> Char -> Int -> Int
20:30:23 <oerjan> > [ chr . foldl1 (flip (xor . ord)) 0 $ showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit n "" | n <- [0..]]
20:30:24 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
20:30:25 <lambdabot> against inferred type...
20:30:32 <oerjan> ...this is getting awkward :P
20:30:41 <oerjan> oh
20:30:42 <kallisti> :t flip (xor . ord)
20:30:43 <lambdabot> Int -> Char -> Int
20:30:48 <oerjan> > [ chr . foldl' (flip (xor . ord)) 0 $ showIntAtBase 2 intToDigit n "" | n <- [0..]]
20:30:51 <lambdabot> "01\SOH\NUL1001\SOH\NUL\NUL\SOH\NUL\SOH\SOH\NUL1001011001101001\SOH\NUL\NUL...
20:30:56 <oerjan> oops XD
20:31:25 <mroman> about that output...
20:31:30 <oerjan> _maybe_ xor'ing digit characters isn't such a good operation :P
20:32:46 <kallisti> the perils of programming after too much abstract math.
20:33:18 <oerjan> somehow i had the idea that '0' `xor` '1' would be '1' etc.
20:34:08 <mroman> `xor` True is an Inverter ;)
20:34:14 <mroman> (and `xor` False is Identity)
20:34:17 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: xor`: not found
20:34:34 <kallisti> > (xor `on` read . return) 0 1 :: Word
20:34:35 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Char)
20:34:35 <lambdabot> arising from the literal `0...
20:34:44 <kallisti> > (xor `on` read . return) '0' '1' :: Word
20:34:46 <lambdabot> 1
20:34:50 <kallisti> > (xor `on` read . return) '1' '1' :: Word
20:34:52 <lambdabot> 0
20:35:28 <ais523> hmm, what are opinions on Rust in here?
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20:35:37 <ais523> it looks sort-of like what Splint was trying to do but better designed
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20:35:42 <ais523> it'll be nice to see what it's like when it's done
20:36:00 <kallisti> what is rust
20:36:01 <kallisti> help
20:36:14 <kallisti> ais523: btw I made a spiritual successor to dupdog
20:36:37 <kallisti> I need to do some other stuff before I can write up a wiki page for it.
20:36:58 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/BiLC?perl reference interpreter in Perl.
20:38:12 <kallisti> ais523: looks interesting
20:38:13 <mroman> do you have to return $_?
20:38:16 <kallisti> I'll have to read more about it.
20:38:20 <kallisti> mroman: yes
20:38:25 <mroman> so
20:38:27 <kallisti> return; is just return undef
20:38:32 <mroman> although everything can handle $_
20:38:34 <mroman> return cant?
20:38:42 <kallisti> "everything" can't handle $_
20:38:47 <mroman> ok
20:38:47 <kallisti> many things can
20:38:48 <mroman> most
20:38:49 <kallisti> return is not one of those.
20:38:52 <mroman> pff.
20:38:54 <mroman> perl sucks :)
20:39:11 <kallisti> return; is typically used to exit a "void" function
20:39:16 <kallisti> so it would make sense that it returns an undefine result.
20:39:23 <kallisti> *undefined
20:39:33 <mroman> As much sense as any decision in perl can make ;)
20:39:43 <mroman> but yeah.
20:39:59 <mroman> having return; return $_ is probably a bad idea.
20:40:05 <kallisti> oh oopse so of my old recursion is showing
20:40:11 <kallisti> *some
20:40:28 <kallisti> I had written it recursive before but I don't think perl optimizes tail calls.
20:41:23 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/BiLC?perl
20:41:29 <kallisti> er....
20:42:18 <kallisti> http://sprunge.us/aZYA?perl there we go
20:46:12 <itidus20> wikipedia has added popup text to those numbered reference links. those who use text browsers and the like can disregard.
20:49:58 <augur> oerjan: :D
20:51:00 <nortti> :P
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21:26:51 <kallisti> mroman: $_ is implicit in scalar builtin operators, usually string or numeric operators, and basically anything that takes one-argument. return isn't really a scalar operator.
21:27:11 <kallisti> its context depends on the calling context, in fact.
21:27:35 <kallisti> return could evaluate its argument in either list, scalar, or whatever-ekse context.
21:27:38 <kallisti> *else
21:31:54 <kallisti> ais523: structural typing in purely functional languages is something I'm interested in.
21:34:30 <nortti> structural typing?
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21:40:23 <kallisti> nortti: the type of a value is determined by the structure of its representation.
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23:38:20 <WHAT_RIGHT> THIS EXISTS
23:38:41 <Gregor> `WELCOME WHAT_RIGHT
23:38:44 <HackEgo> WHAT_RIGHT: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
23:41:05 <FireFly> `WELcome
23:41:08 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: WELcome: not found
23:41:18 * FireFly wonders how many variations of the welcome command there are
23:41:26 * FireFly believes that he knows four
23:41:41 <oerjan> finally the `WELCOME command gets properly used!
23:42:48 <nortti_> FireFly: welcome, WELCOME and WeLcOmE
23:43:03 <FireFly> Isn't there also one in unicode fixed-width characters?
23:43:04 <nortti_> FireFly: what is the fourth
23:43:18 <nortti_> oh. that one
23:43:48 <WHAT_RIGHT> Too bad that link is broken
23:43:53 <nortti_> `WeLcOmE FireFly
23:43:57 <HackEgo> FiReFlY: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
23:44:11 <nortti_> oh. that still works
23:44:28 <WHAT_RIGHT> you should make it not break the capitalization in links
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23:45:38 <nortti_> wasn't there before a page at HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE?
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23:45:49 <oerjan> WHAT_RIGHT: our wiki admin was _supposed_ to make that link work, but i think he got stuck overengineering it (he wants to make it work for _any_ wiki page)
23:47:07 <oerjan> oh and probably to make it work for links followed too
23:47:23 <FireFly> couldn't you just do something about /wiki/ and then setup mediawiki redirects for the various variations of Main_page that are linked to?
23:47:50 <oerjan> FireFly: note that he wants the _page_ to show in all caps
23:47:52 <FireFly> the latter half should be possible without admin powers, even
23:47:57 <FireFly> Ah.
23:48:38 <oerjan> `welcome
23:48:41 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:48:51 <oerjan> feel free to visit that one instead :P
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2012-07-19
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02:07:19 <kallisti> ais523: Rust looks more-or-less like the "improved C with concepts borrowed from functional programming" I've been looking for .
02:11:21 <kallisti> though some design choices are a bit odd.
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07:08:14 <Sgeo_> WTF
07:08:39 <Sgeo_> The Time Cube site now links to cubicao
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11:10:13 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I saw the IMEC tower construction thing you mentioned, yesterday.
11:10:54 <AnotherTest> fizzie: :)
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12:40:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you live at a hotel all that time in Belgium or how does that work?
12:47:15 <Phantom_Hoover> His house in Finland is actually a caravan.
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15:05:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's this "apartment-hotel" kind of thing, they have a monthly rate that's noticeably cheaper than per-night hotel costs and a tiny kitchen-alike and so on.
15:06:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: If it were a longer trip we'd have rented a place, but people aren't generally so interested in renting out apartments for just a month, and it'd have been a bigger hassle.
15:06:48 <fizzie> The cost difference for just one month isn't so big anyway.
15:07:52 <fizzie> The university has some visitor apartments too, but those are reasonably booked, and they have this thing of prioritizing more official partners and whatnot.
15:08:14 <fizzie> (And those aren't free either, the hotel is I think only about double the cost.)
15:17:45 <kallisti_> Gregor: why do you forward port 3128 in hackbot?
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15:54:06 <Gregor> kallisti: HTTP proxy
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16:04:45 <kallisti> Gregor: so I've been playing around with having persistent environment variables. but I haven't found a way to do to my liking.
16:05:06 <kallisti> some things you just don't want persistent, but having a long list of --unset options feels wrong too.
16:05:40 <kallisti> but for a bit I had persistent cd and environment variables, using a version-controlled .env file that keeps track of the environment between invocations.
16:05:58 <kallisti> I decided I'd rather not have persistent cd.
16:08:57 <Gregor> Unless there's a first-principles way of defining “some things”, I think you're stuck.
16:09:09 <kallisti> well, PWD, USER, HOME, and OLDPWD
16:09:11 <kallisti> and _
16:09:24 <kallisti> but I doubt that's everything
16:12:24 <kallisti> the way env displays functions is weird
16:12:42 <kallisti> f=() { echo
16:12:42 <kallisti> }
16:14:43 <kallisti> aha
16:16:17 <Gregor> env... displays functions???
16:16:24 <Gregor> Is that some shell built-in env?
16:16:32 <Gregor> /usr/bin/env certainly can't.
16:16:40 <kallisti> it's a bash thing
16:16:57 <kallisti> try:
16:17:01 <kallisti> f() { echo; }
16:17:03 <kallisti> export -f f
16:17:04 <kallisti> env
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16:22:53 <Taneb> Hello
16:24:27 <Taneb> Wow, I got in the Haskell Weekly News quotes!
16:24:37 <kallisti> you're Haskell famous now!
16:24:47 <Taneb> Yay!
16:24:56 <Taneb> Now I'm Haskell famous, and Northumberland famous
16:24:58 <kallisti> Gregor: looks like declare -p will display only variables and ignore exported functions
16:25:12 <kallisti> this ensures that, while I can't support exporting functions, they won't break anything either.
16:25:14 <Gregor> Or, /usr/bin/env ;)
16:25:28 <kallisti> that's the env I'm using
16:25:52 <kallisti> I just tried /usr/bin/env, same output
16:25:59 <kallisti> $ builtin env
16:26:03 <kallisti> -bash: builtin: env: not a shell builtin
16:27:02 <kallisti> so it looks like declare -px is the way to go
16:27:07 <kallisti> if I'm to go at all.
16:29:04 <Gregor> WAT
16:29:06 <Gregor> I'm so confused
16:29:13 <Gregor> I don't even understand how functions CAN be exported.
16:31:07 <kallisti> no idea
16:31:16 <kallisti> h4x
16:33:25 <kallisti> yeah I may just give up on this.
16:33:40 <kallisti> the only immediate purpose I see for a persistent env is to annoy other people by messing it up.
16:34:31 <kallisti> Gregor: also git > hg
16:34:44 <kallisti> > "git" > "hg"
16:34:46 <lambdabot> False
16:34:49 <kallisti> lies.
16:35:11 <kallisti> you don't have to go lookup the revision number to revert a change
16:35:15 <kallisti> you just `revert HEAD
16:35:27 <kallisti> or `revert HEAD@{1} for the previous one
16:35:48 <Taneb> Is it bad that when some rules of equivalence were described, my first thought was "Hey, that's a Category!"
16:36:50 <kallisti> why do you have to categorize everything?
16:36:55 <kallisti> why can't you just let it be what it is, man.
16:37:06 <Gregor> I severely doubt that that one, extraordinarily minor advantage can make up for the fact that git has, by a wide margin, the worst UI of any piece of software I have ever had the mispleasure of using.
16:37:09 <Gregor> And I've used HP-UX.
16:37:20 <Taneb> class Category cat => Equivalence cat where rev :: cat a b -> cat b a
16:37:42 <kallisti> Gregor: you know you /do/ actually have to read the manual to use git properly.
16:37:48 <Gregor> Yes, I do.
16:37:52 <Gregor> And that's why it's fucking terrible.
16:38:01 <Gregor> It's so goddamn unintuitive that I have to read the manuals repeatedly.
16:38:02 <kallisti> it's a flexible piece of software.
16:38:10 <kallisti> that comes with a bit of learning curve.
16:38:12 <Gregor> Yes, flexible in the sense that you have to bend over backwards to use it.
16:38:29 <Taneb> Is it the dwarf fortress of software?
16:38:47 <kallisti> I think dwarf fortress would be the dwarf fortress of software...
16:39:00 <kallisti> Gregor: eh, once you get used to it, it's intuitive.
16:39:06 <Taneb> Is it the dwarf fortress of non-game software?
16:39:08 <Gregor> I've used it plenty, in fact.
16:39:09 <kallisti> granted, I haven't done anything complex with merges and branches
16:39:19 <kallisti> but for single-person use it's pretty straightforward.
16:39:21 <Gregor> Until I finally ditched it for hg-git, anyway.
16:39:32 <Gregor> Now I do everything with hg, and my life is much improved.
16:39:57 <kallisti> Gregor: but how do you forward-port local commits to the update upstream head!
16:40:02 <kallisti> *updated
16:40:30 <Gregor> hg rebase
16:40:35 <kallisti> o
16:41:18 <kallisti> Gregor: still, for this usage, using git actually results in an improved UI over hg
16:41:32 <kallisti> because you no longer have to look up the commit hash
16:41:52 <Gregor> I have no idea whether I actually have to look up the commit hash for anything *shrugs*
16:42:08 <Gregor> I think you can use negative numbers or something like that for tip-minus-n.
16:43:02 <kallisti> revision
16:43:02 <kallisti> indicates a changeset which can be specified as a
16:43:02 <kallisti> changeset revision number, a tag, or a unique sub-
16:43:02 <kallisti> string of the changeset hash value
16:43:18 <kallisti> unless one of those things includes what you just said
16:43:21 <kallisti> I don't think so
16:43:23 <Gregor> *shrugs*
16:43:42 <Gregor> OK, so you've found the one piece of good corn in the giant steaming festering pile of shit that is git's UI.
16:45:35 <kallisti> if it's any consolation
16:45:45 <kallisti> I haven't found a way to add an --author option to git revert
16:46:36 <kallisti> I'd have to use --no-commit and then manually commit with the --author option
16:52:38 <kallisti> Gregor: it looks like changing PWD has no effect on umlbox's actual current working directory
16:52:39 <kallisti> oh, looks like PWD never does that.
16:53:01 <Gregor> Yeah, that's not how PWD works.
16:53:03 <Gregor> It's read-only
17:01:52 <Vorpal> Rotating a 3D coordinate system in the fourth dimension should switch it between left and right handedness right?
17:07:05 <fizzie> Not if you rotate it the whole way.
17:10:00 <itidus21> is that the tetris J L problem?
17:10:46 <Taneb> Quite possible
17:10:59 <itidus21> i know theres a C word for this
17:11:07 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Not if you rotate it the whole way. <-- well obviously
17:11:12 <soundnfury> Gregor: how can you possibly not like git?
17:11:12 <Vorpal> <itidus21> is that the tetris J L problem? <-- ?
17:11:28 <soundnfury> itidus21: Chirality?
17:11:34 <itidus21> thats the one!
17:11:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is the name of the 4D equiv of right/left-handedness?
17:11:42 <soundnfury> it's not a C word, it's a chi word
17:11:51 <itidus21> sou ka
17:12:11 <soundnfury> Vorpal: I'm not sure there's a unique equivalent
17:12:20 <Vorpal> soundnfury, oh?
17:12:32 <soundnfury> handedness is a peculiar property of 3 dimensions caused by the existence of a vector cross product
17:12:47 <soundnfury> shared only by 7D which also has a cross product (because octonions yay)
17:13:14 <Gregor> soundnfury: I thought I already explained this. Its UI is so horrendous that I honestly cannot believe that it was created solely by incompetence and not malice.
17:13:19 <Vorpal> hm is that so, but what about the 2D case then, where you can't just rotate the coordinate system between one where x points left, and the other where x points right (in both cases having y point up)
17:13:27 <Vorpal> isn't that a form of handedness too?
17:14:09 <Vorpal> Gregor, I completely agree
17:14:16 <soundnfury> ah, you mean that. Well, it's because permutations of three basis vectors are defined up to a product of (123) by sign
17:14:32 <soundnfury> and of course permutations of 2 are defined uniquely by sign
17:14:59 <Vorpal> well you should have some similar phenomenon in 4D surely?
17:15:13 <soundnfury> whereas in 4 dimensions you can apply, say, (12)(34) which has positive sign and is not a product of (1234)
17:15:19 <Vorpal> ah...
17:15:27 <soundnfury> there are just too many degrees of freedom
17:15:27 <Vorpal> thinking in 4D is so hard
17:15:38 <kallisti> Gregor: I've got persistent environment working (including exported functions), with some minimal filtering of variables (SHLVL, PWD, and OLDPWD aren't stored)
17:15:50 <Gregor> kallisti: Sweet :)
17:15:53 <soundnfury> so instead of left- and right- handedness, you have about four cosets in S₄
17:16:01 <kallisti> presumably if you mess up the environment then you can just revert it back.
17:16:03 <Vorpal> soundnfury, S being?
17:16:10 <soundnfury> symettric group
17:16:20 <Vorpal> I don't think I read enough math for this...
17:16:27 <soundnfury> S(n) is the symmetric group on n letters
17:17:00 <soundnfury> so in 2D we had S₂ which is just Z₂, so we can define handedness by a sign
17:17:09 <Vorpal> yep
17:17:23 <Vorpal> and in S_3 we have...?
17:17:39 <soundnfury> in 3D we had S₃ which is D₆, so we have a sign (from the permutation signature) and then the quotient by that is just Z₃
17:17:53 <Vorpal> kallisti, what is that you are working on?
17:17:56 <itidus21> Vorpal: i think it may be best for us humans to begin by thinking in 4d using chess style
17:18:12 <Vorpal> soundnfury, right
17:18:17 <Vorpal> fairly reasonable so far
17:18:28 <Vorpal> itidus21, what do you mean?
17:19:16 <kallisti> Vorpal: I'm adding hackegos sandbox stuff to my perl bot, using git instead of hg, and playing around with possibly new features.
17:19:33 <Vorpal> kallisti, ouch, git
17:19:34 <soundnfury> in 4D we have S₄, we quotient out Z₄ and that leaves something of order 6...
17:19:42 <Vorpal> kallisti, also iirc that sandbox is debian specific
17:19:49 * kallisti doesn't really get the aversion to git
17:19:50 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hm okay
17:19:50 <kallisti> it's not
17:19:54 <kallisti> it's just eas to install on debian
17:19:56 <Vorpal> kallisti, plash?
17:19:59 <kallisti> and i'm running debian anyway so it's okay.
17:19:59 <Vorpal> thought it was
17:20:01 <kallisti> no umlbox
17:20:03 <itidus21> Vorpal: things like chebyshev distance applied to 4d
17:20:07 <Vorpal> kallisti, oh he used plash before
17:20:19 <kallisti> umlbox is gregor's creation.
17:20:21 <Vorpal> right
17:20:33 <Vorpal> itidus21, ?
17:20:54 <itidus21> we need something other than cartesian geometry for thinking in 4d
17:21:01 <Vorpal> why
17:21:07 <Gregor> umlbox shouldn't be appreciably easier to install on Debian than anything else.
17:21:10 <itidus21> because it's too hard the cartesian way
17:21:16 <Gregor> Vorpal: I don't use plash any more (which is Debian-specific), I use umlbox (which is not).
17:21:41 <soundnfury> itidus21: you use abstract linear algebra and formalisms, instead of trying to visualise stuff in your head
17:21:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, what if the 4D problem I want to represent depends on the Euclidean distance?
17:21:50 <soundnfury> because meatware graphics adapter sucks
17:21:59 <Vorpal> soundnfury, indeed
17:22:12 <Vorpal> completely unrelated, anyone here ever used OpenGL ES 2.0?
17:22:36 <Vorpal> I'm wondering how much of my knowledge of OpenGL 3.0 I can carry over to embedded opengl
17:22:39 * soundnfury has convinced himself that S₄/Z₄ is isomorphic to S₃
17:22:41 <itidus21> to begin with, i think one must abandon the notion of applying a meaning to each dimension in order to think in 4d
17:23:13 <itidus21> such as, x dimension being east/west, left/right, horizontal
17:23:21 <soundnfury> so "handedness" in 4D is a permutation on three letters, unlike in 3D when it's 2-valued
17:23:29 <itidus21> y dimension being north/south, up/down, vertical, top/bottom
17:23:43 <soundnfury> itidus21: don't apply meanings to things at all
17:23:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: From the little I recall, it's kind of similar than late OpenGL in that they dropped most of the fixed-function pipeline.
17:23:46 <Vorpal> <soundnfury> itidus21: you use abstract linear algebra and formalisms, instead of trying to visualise stuff in your head <-- quite, but that becomes less useful when you are thinking about handedness
17:23:48 <itidus21> z dimension being in/out, close/far
17:24:16 <kallisti> Gregor: hm, would it be possible to set up ssh to log in to a umlbox instance?
17:24:16 <soundnfury> 4D is simply the space of functions from the four-point space [4] to the real line R
17:24:41 <Vorpal> soundnfury, assuming your functions only return one value
17:24:42 <Vorpal> :P
17:24:44 <Gregor> kallisti: Hrm. In principle, yes. In practice, yikes.
17:24:45 <soundnfury> Vorpal: no, because representation theory and groups and shizzle
17:24:56 <soundnfury> Vorpal: um, definition of function much?
17:25:14 <itidus21> basically i think ideas like, east/west, left/right, horizontal, north/south, up/down, vertical, top/bottom, depth, in/out, close/far, are unhelpful in 4d
17:25:23 <Vorpal> soundnfury, you can have a function that returns a vector, can't you?
17:25:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm under the impression that the shading language is pretty similar, though.
17:25:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, thanks
17:25:46 <kallisti> itidus21: just assign one of your dimensions to "time" and all of those other concepts still make sense.
17:25:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, my opengl 3 knowledge should be pretty useful then.
17:25:55 <soundnfury> Vorpal: yes, but in this case the function's codomain is the real line R I already
17:25:59 <soundnfury> specified that
17:26:13 <soundnfury> kallisti: that's not as helpful as it seems
17:26:28 <itidus21> i prefer to think of finite 4d space as a linear set of cubes
17:26:32 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hm
17:26:37 <soundnfury> if you want to visualise a rotation in 4D, you're stuffed, you can't set theta = omega * t and watch it spin
17:27:16 <soundnfury> Vorpal: a vector is in fact a function from a finite space to a field
17:27:39 <soundnfury> for instance a real 3-vector is a function from the three-point space [3] to R
17:28:13 <itidus21> the problem with infinite 3d space is that you can't line up such cubes
17:28:14 <Vorpal> soundnfury, is it now, so what real value does, for example, (1,2,3) yield?
17:28:16 <soundnfury> we just have this convention of power-associating cartesian direct products to notate the same thing
17:28:42 <itidus21> oops
17:28:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: (1,2,3) will obviously yield either 1, 2 or 3, depending on which of the three possible inputs you give.
17:28:44 <soundnfury> Vorpal: (1,2,3) isn't a member of the three-point space
17:28:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, I guess that is one way to see it...
17:28:57 <fizzie> Assuming (1,2,3) is the vector.
17:29:20 <Vorpal> soundnfury, huh? I'm not a mathematician, you completely lost me
17:29:22 <soundnfury> the vector (4,5,6) is the function sending 1 to 4, 2 to 5, and 3 to 6 (treating [3] as {1, 2, 3})
17:29:32 <soundnfury> the three-point space is a set with three elements
17:29:58 <soundnfury> endowed with the discrete topology so that we can talk about topological notions like continuity wrt. functions from it
17:30:01 <Vorpal> soundnfury, how is (1,2,3) any different from (4,5,6)?
17:30:01 <itidus21> in order to visualize in 4d space, you would really need to give up part of your brain
17:30:15 <soundnfury> those are both vectors
17:30:19 <Vorpal> exactly
17:30:23 <soundnfury> the three-point space is {1,2,3}, not (1,2,3)
17:30:26 <soundnfury> it's a set
17:30:52 <itidus21> or maybe not
17:31:02 <soundnfury> you could say that the vector (1,2,3) is the inclusion function from [3] to R, because it maps each x in [3] to the same x in R
17:31:09 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I have no clue what a three-point space is. I don't even know which branch of mathematics that is from
17:31:26 <soundnfury> topology
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17:31:31 <Vorpal> yeah I never studied that
17:31:47 <soundnfury> it's a topological space that as far as you care is just a "set with three elements"
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17:31:55 <soundnfury> which we write as [3] or {1, 2, 3}
17:31:55 <Vorpal> fair enough
17:32:03 <Vorpal> seems a pretty boring set
17:32:42 <itidus21> ok well, what is rotation?
17:33:08 <Vorpal> itidus21, it is easiest to think of as a transformation matrix on a certain form
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17:33:16 <itidus21> a point on it's own cannot rotate, correct?
17:33:17 <Vorpal> I don't know offhand what it looks like in 4D
17:33:32 <itidus21> i guess a point can only be rotated around another point
17:33:37 <Vorpal> itidus21, sure it can, you can't tell that anything happened though :P
17:33:50 <Vorpal> rotate (0,0,0) and you still get (0,0,0)
17:34:24 <Vorpal> <itidus21> i guess a point can only be rotated around another point <-- i.e. you mean a vector between those two points
17:34:40 <itidus21> yeah.. i mean.. only a vector can be rotated?
17:35:16 <itidus21> but is a point a vector? :D cries
17:35:20 <itidus21> fuck math
17:35:26 <itidus21> ;_;
17:35:30 <Vorpal> I assume you mean in linear algebra?
17:35:42 <soundnfury> itidus21: a rotation is an affine map on a vector space with an invariant space of codimension 2 and a positive determinant.
17:35:45 <soundnfury> So there.
17:35:45 <itidus21> i mean in relational algebra
17:35:48 <itidus21> ;_;
17:36:14 <Vorpal> soundnfury, affine? Isn't it linear?
17:36:21 <Vorpal> Assuming you rotate around origo of course
17:36:25 <Vorpal> and where else would you rotate
17:36:33 <soundnfury> Vorpal: I chose not to make that precise assumption
17:36:38 <itidus21> im just kidding by the way
17:37:21 <soundnfury> if you change "affine" to "linear" you then get the definition of a rotation about the origin
17:37:28 <itidus21> i don't hate math that is
17:37:52 <Vorpal> soundnfury, that is good though, you can just do a translation before, and another after and you can rotate around any point
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17:39:43 <itidus21> <Vorpal> itidus21, sure it can, you can't tell that anything happened though :P <--- cool
17:40:08 <Vorpal> soundnfury, btw, I hope I never have to do a flight simulator, fuck quaternions.
17:40:37 <itidus21> 4d translation is easy enough
17:40:39 <soundnfury> Vorpal: quaternions are fucking AWESOME
17:40:50 <Vorpal> soundnfury, well I would have to try and learn how they work
17:40:52 <Vorpal> :/
17:40:56 <itidus21> oh wait i ill considered this
17:41:18 <itidus21> nah easy enough
17:41:24 <Vorpal> itidus21, it is just a 5x5 matrix with a homogeneous coordinates I presume?
17:41:37 <Vorpal> coordinate*
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17:41:56 <itidus21> my method of visualizing a 4d finite space is a line of cubes
17:42:15 <itidus21> ^cubes made of smaller cubes
17:42:18 <soundnfury> itidus21: you already said that
17:42:21 <itidus21> yup
17:42:32 <itidus21> and so.. in that way, its really very easy to imagine a translation
17:43:01 <itidus21> translating along w is simply like a passenger going from carriage to carriage in a train
17:43:21 <Vorpal> fun fact: you can convert Celsius to Fahrenheit using a 2x2 matrix (homogeneous coordinates)
17:43:30 <nortti> how?
17:43:34 <Vorpal> I forgot the details of how you had to set it up
17:43:51 <Vorpal> but since Celsius to Fahrenheit is an affine transformation on R
17:43:52 <Vorpal> it works
17:44:01 <Vorpal> (that is R_1)
17:44:20 <Vorpal> nortti, just consider the temperature to be an 1-dimensional vector :)
17:44:43 <nortti> oh
17:44:45 <Vorpal> well, 2D, you have the homogeneous coordinate
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17:45:57 <Vorpal> nortti, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out
17:46:03 <itidus21> but in order to translate...
17:46:06 <itidus21> it doesn't work
17:46:10 <itidus21> ^rotate
17:46:14 <Vorpal> what doesn't?
17:46:30 <Vorpal> oh your abstraction
17:46:31 <Vorpal> right
17:46:38 <Vorpal> which is why it is useless for that
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17:46:49 <itidus21> well.. in order to rotate, i would try to basically create a 2d plane
17:47:03 <itidus21> but.. i can't
17:47:12 <Vorpal> you just have to stop imagining what it looks like
17:47:16 <Vorpal> it is not possible
17:47:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: You need something like [C;1] as "input" (where C is the temperature in Celsius), though.
17:47:26 <Vorpal> unless you are on LSD or something
17:47:30 <Vorpal> (don't do drugs, kids)
17:47:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, well obviously: <Vorpal> well, 2D, you have the homogeneous coordinate
17:47:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, what a weird way to write a vector
17:48:03 <Vorpal> surely you mean (C,1)
17:48:04 <Vorpal> :P
17:48:29 <fizzie> It's the MATLAB matrix notation.
17:48:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, and then at the end you get (x,w) and you get F by dividing x by w
17:48:54 <Vorpal> I think
17:49:00 <fizzie> [a b c; d e f; g h i] being a square matrix with a, b and c on the first row.
17:49:04 <Vorpal> ouch
17:49:14 <fizzie> You can get [F,1] directly, I'm pretty sure.
17:49:15 <Vorpal> Well don't do that syntax on me, I'm not used to it.
17:49:20 <Vorpal> you can do GLSL if you want
17:49:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, really?
17:49:32 <Vorpal> how
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17:51:00 <fizzie> To use the notation you don't like, [a b; 0 1]*[C; 1] = [a*c+b; 1].
17:51:14 <fizzie> a*C+b to not lose the uppercase.
17:51:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, a an b being?
17:51:17 <fizzie> Then just make a and b the numbers you need.
17:51:23 <itidus21> my row of cubes would look something like w- [+]/ [+]/ [+]/ [+]/ w+
17:51:28 <fizzie> Whatever the Celsius-to-Fahrenheit conversion numbers are.
17:51:32 <Vorpal> hm okay
17:51:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember I worked them out (for the divide-by-w case) and they ended up as some simple ratios
17:51:59 <Vorpal> like 3/5 or some such
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17:53:20 <Vorpal> too lazy to work them out again, also I don't remember exactly how atm, would need to look it up. (Damn you libraries making me forget how to do this by hand when doing OpenGL)
17:53:38 <fizzie> Certainly you *can* do that. But you could also set the matrix up so that it returns a proper homogenous (F,1) vector directly.
17:53:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, is this only in the 1D case?
17:54:22 <Vorpal> or why do we not do that in OpenGL, instead of dividing by w at the end to get the projection
17:54:59 <fizzie> No; you can obviously get any affine transformation from [x; y; 1] to [p; q; 1] by multiplying with a matrix [a b c; d e f; 0 0 1], with a, b, c, d, e, f being the parameters of your affine transform.
17:55:40 <fizzie> I seem to recall some SVG stuff only takes the two upper rows of the matrix for that reason.
17:55:51 <fizzie> It doesn't work for projection matrices since the projection isn't an affine transformation.
17:56:03 <Vorpal> ah
17:56:10 <Vorpal> right
17:56:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of transformation is the projection then...
17:57:07 <Vorpal> hm
17:57:14 <fizzie> Well, it depends on what you put in your matrix.
17:58:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about a perspective projection? And then what about a orthographic projection?
18:01:13 <fizzie> Well, with glFrustum i.e. perspective projection you get [a 0 b 0; 0 c d 0; 0 0 e f; 0 0 -1 0]*[x; y; z; w] = [a*x + b*z; c*y + d*z; e*z + f*w; -z] and then that turns into [-a*x/z - b; -c*y/z - d; -e-f/z; 1] and that nets you the /z you of course need in a perspective projection.
18:01:38 <fizzie> Here a, b, c, d, e, f are suitable parameters derived from the left, right, top, bottom, zNear, zFar given.
18:02:05 <fizzie> (That matrix was from man glFrustum, incidentally.)
18:04:14 <fizzie> And normally of course the input w=1 and that bit with the z coordinate of the output is to map [zNear, zFar] into the proper range for the depth buffer, which is [-1,1] or something like that.
18:04:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, glFrustum is fixed function right?
18:04:36 <Vorpal> I never worked with that old API
18:04:41 <fizzie> Yes, it's one of the old ones.
18:04:46 <Vorpal> what does it mean in modern terms :P
18:05:03 <fizzie> Sets the projection matrix to that.
18:05:07 <Vorpal> ah
18:05:16 <fizzie> The projection matrix being one of the things that gets automagically applied.
18:07:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, right
18:11:34 <fizzie> I seem to recall the documentation is written as if the system would first multiply the geometry with the modelview matrix, then the projection matrix, and then there was maybe a third one, but of course a reasonable implementation is free to multiply those all together.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Well, maybe not the third (viewport matrix) since it happens after the /w thing.
18:13:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, what if you are doing stuff in between the modelview and the projection though
18:13:26 <Vorpal> can't think of something to there at the top of my head though
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18:13:34 <fizzie> I don't think you can do stuff there with the fixed-function pipeline.
18:13:41 <Vorpal> right
18:14:02 <Vorpal> why would anyone code for the fixed-function pipeline these days
18:17:34 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
18:17:35 <oklopol> sup
18:18:40 <Taneb> That reminds me
18:18:43 <Taneb> Thanks, oerjan
18:18:52 <Taneb> *future/past oerjan
18:18:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm which shaders do OpenGL ES even have? Just vertex and fragment? I'm unable to find the docs atm...
18:19:04 <Taneb> Hey, oklopol
18:19:22 <Vorpal> any tessellation shader?
18:19:24 <soundnfury> hey Taneb did you ever have a go at programming in Eniuq?
18:19:26 <oklopol> hey taneb.
18:19:30 <Taneb> Nah
18:19:33 <Taneb> Um
18:19:34 <Taneb> No
18:19:42 <Taneb> I've been in Durham since Monday
18:19:48 <Taneb> I'll have another look at it now
18:19:54 <oklopol> yea Taneb are you the tangent of e flat
18:20:12 <Taneb> ?
18:20:55 <oklopol> it's a joke for mathematician-musicians with a retarded sense of humor
18:20:58 <Vorpal> god dammit, the android documentation for the relevant classes are mostly empty. Presumably you are supposed to refer to the OpenGL ES 2.0 spec instead to figure out what the functions do
18:21:17 <soundnfury> oklopol: that would be tanE♭
18:21:32 <soundnfury> completely different capitalisation and moar unicodez
18:21:38 <Vorpal> :D
18:21:46 <oklopol> i can't pronounce that
18:22:04 <Taneb> Oh, I get that!
18:22:06 <Taneb> :)
18:22:08 <Vorpal> oklopol, how do you normally pronounce E♭?
18:22:13 <Taneb> I mis-parsed tangent
18:22:26 <oklopol> i'm referring to finger pronunciation
18:22:40 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I can translate that as a single word in Swedish
18:22:45 <Vorpal> but not in English :/
18:24:11 <olsner> Vorpal: it does make more sense to refer to the already-existing OpenGL spec instead of incorrectly duplicating all information
18:24:32 <Vorpal> olsner, true, but it is more annoying
18:24:50 <soundnfury> Vorpal: it's pronounced "S" and spelt "Es" in German, if that helps
18:25:07 <Vorpal> soundnfury, something like that in Swedish too
18:25:07 * soundnfury likes "H" for B♮
18:25:12 <Vorpal> Ess rather
18:25:20 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I hate that
18:25:32 <Vorpal> it is mostly found in older literature
18:25:51 <AnotherTest> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1928.txt - does anyone know where I can find what should happen *after* CONNECT has been done (forwarding should be specified right?)
18:25:57 <mroman> Is that b non-modified?
18:26:11 <mroman> one tone beneath c?
18:26:23 <mroman> We call that 'h' around here.
18:26:28 <mroman> and a half-tone down is 'b'
18:26:40 <mroman> which makes b == ais
18:26:43 <mroman> and h == ces
18:26:49 <Vorpal> yes, that is how it is in older literature in Swedish too
18:26:58 <Vorpal> nowdays we do it the logical way
18:27:22 <mroman> and that would be?
18:27:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'd guess just vertex and fragment shaders, yes. But I'm no ogles expert.
18:27:47 <mroman> cdefgabc?
18:28:07 <mroman> and distinguishing between b-b and b-flat?
18:28:13 <fizzie> WebGL is IIRC OpenGL ES 2.0 -based.
18:28:56 <mroman> our system uses cdefgahc
18:29:15 <fizzie> I think they do H in Finland too. At least it was that way back in music lessons in school.
18:29:19 <soundnfury> It's interesting when you get a part marked "Trumpet in B" and you wonder "Does it mean B♭ or H? Is this at-pitch or do I have to transpose up a semitone?"
18:29:28 <Vorpal> anyway H was due to someone misreading the original idea iirc
18:29:46 <mroman> c,cis,d,e,f,fis,g,gis,a,ais,c,cis or c,des,d,e,f,ges,g,a,b,c,des
18:30:08 <soundnfury> if you have a note "cis" you have to have one called "trans" as well
18:30:14 <soundnfury> isomers ftw
18:30:37 <mroman> Trumpets usually are Bb then ;)
18:30:40 <itidus21> with all the talk about donkey kong, i've never heard anyone actually comment on the way that mario's footsteps play a melody
18:30:43 <mroman> but there also trumpets in C and D of course.
18:30:57 <mroman> or is it H
18:30:59 <itidus21> maybe not a very exciting melody
18:31:02 <mroman> now you've confused me :)
18:31:11 <itidus21> but .. i have broken enough topics tonight
18:31:12 <soundnfury> mroman: true. But I actually play the cornet, which is almost never in C or D. Sometimes in E♭ though.
18:31:22 <soundnfury> But usually B♭
18:31:30 <mroman> Bb
18:31:43 <mroman> but on my tone measure thing I have to set it to two b's
18:31:45 <fizzie> mroman: Is ais523 in there somewhere too?
18:31:55 <mroman> which is weird.
18:31:59 <Vorpal> mroman, in Sweden we do (complete list): c/biss, ciss/dess, d, diss/ess, e/fess, f/eiss, fiss/gess, g, giss/ass, a, aiss/bess, b/cess
18:32:32 <soundnfury> From time to time I get horn parts, which are usually in F but sometimes in Es or even As (A♭)
18:32:50 <mroman> huh
18:32:51 <mroman> weird.
18:33:05 <soundnfury> if you play trumpet and horn parts in an orchestra, you have to be able to transpose ;)
18:33:20 <Vorpal> <soundnfury> It's interesting when you get a part marked "Trumpet in B" and you wonder "Does it mean B♭ or H? Is this at-pitch or do I have to transpose up a semitone?" <-- just count the number of # or ♭ at the start of the score?
18:33:35 <Vorpal> At least that should work for piano music, does it work differently for trumpet music?
18:33:38 <mroman> My flugelhorn is Bb
18:33:38 * soundnfury once played in Beethoven's 7th, trumpet in D, having seen the part only a couple of hours before
18:33:45 <mroman> measured against C, 442hz
18:33:48 <Vorpal> mroman, what is that instrument in English?
18:33:58 <mroman> It's called Flugelhorn in English.
18:34:01 <soundnfury> Vorpal: unfortunately, orchestral trumpet parts often don't have key signatures
18:34:03 <mroman> And Flügelhorn in German :)
18:34:06 <Vorpal> soundnfury, ouch
18:34:14 <Vorpal> mroman, okaay
18:34:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: GLSL ES spec only speaks of vertex and fragment processors. But OpenGL ES 3.0 (which should be out any day now, I guess, this year anyway) is supposed to be based on (regular) OpenGL 3.3, so I suppose it might have some geometry shaders.
18:34:30 <itidus21> finally i can say Flugelhorn in english
18:35:01 <mroman> ah ok.
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18:35:09 <mroman> the b on my measure thing is a real b
18:35:14 <mroman> as Bb is one tone benath C
18:35:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, I care for tessellation shaders, not geometry ones.
18:35:29 <soundnfury> Vorpal: I once had a part for trumpet in A, which would have been in C... that means, I was transposing it into seven flats, woo
18:35:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, that won't help when working against current mobile devices.
18:36:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Isn't that just a use case for a geometry shader? Though I'm not terribly current on modern OpenGL.
18:36:10 * soundnfury gets out his garklein-flötlein (which is in C)
18:36:12 <Vorpal> I guess there will be hw support for it maybe next year, unless existing hardware can support it in theory?
18:36:28 <fizzie> Geometry shaders are those things that can create new primitives.
18:36:33 <Vorpal> And then you need to wait maybe 5 years or so before it becomes common enough that it is worth requiring.
18:37:08 <itidus21> Vorpal: theres better ways to spend life than providing 3d apps to mobile market
18:37:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, my experience is that geometry shaders are rather slow for doing that. It being more efficient to just make a larger array of vertex data.
18:37:18 <itidus21> such as swimming in money for example
18:37:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, tessellation shaders don't suffer that problem, presumably because they are more restricted.
18:37:34 <oklopol> "Vorpal nowdays we do it the logical way" lolol
18:37:56 <oklopol> and yeah h is used in finland
18:38:00 <Vorpal> <itidus21> Vorpal: theres better ways to spend life than providing 3d apps to mobile market <-- Right?
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18:38:35 <itidus21> the answer is not to make a console which can play mobile apps on a tv with a gamepad
18:38:49 <Vorpal> indeed not, I don't care for consoles
18:38:51 <Vorpal> I don't use them
18:38:58 <oklopol> "mroman c,cis,d,e,f,fis,g,gis,a,ais,c,cis or c,des,d,e,f,ges,g,a,b,c,des" what?
18:39:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, he forgot the black key between d and e
18:39:25 <mroman> oh
18:39:26 <mroman> yeah
18:39:35 <mroman> my bad.
18:39:51 <Vorpal> oklopol, presumably those backwards people in whatever country he lives in don't understand how it works
18:39:53 <mroman> dis or es that'd be
18:39:57 <Vorpal> so they write their music without it ;)
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18:40:51 <itidus21> mroman: you forgot dess/gauss
18:41:04 <oklopol> Vorpal: that's one thing he forgot, yes
18:41:16 <Vorpal> oklopol, right, I didn't bother to read further
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18:41:34 <Vorpal> itidus21, gauss?
18:41:37 <Vorpal> what is that
18:41:42 <Vorpal> gess or giss?
18:42:01 <mroman> g-sharp or g-b ;)?
18:42:06 <oklopol> that's the problem with this system, it makes no sense so people make mistakes very easily.
18:42:15 <itidus21> yes it was a "mistake"
18:42:19 <mroman> oklopol: ?
18:42:25 <mroman> The tone system makes perfect sense.
18:42:33 <Vorpal> oklopol, I don't /think/ I missed anything when I listed the Swedish names
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18:42:36 <Vorpal> not 100% sure though
18:42:40 <itidus21> Vorpal: gauss is a mathematician
18:42:40 <oklopol> perfectly no sense, yes
18:42:47 <Vorpal> itidus21, so it was a joke?
18:42:52 <mroman> What does not make sense?
18:42:57 <itidus21> yup.
18:43:03 <oklopol> Vorpal: you didn't
18:43:35 <itidus21> really not much of a joke
18:43:50 <fizzie> Vorpal: Tessellation shaders seem to be an OpenGL 4.0 thing, so I wouldn't count them being even in ES 3.0, though it's of course possible. And yes, you might have to wait a while for hardware support. Though e.g. the ARM Mali T-604 (which is in Galaxy Note 10.1, due out in a week and a half) seems to claim ES 3.0 support already.
18:43:54 <oklopol> mroman: it's retarded.
18:44:03 <mroman> What and why?
18:44:24 <oerjan> <Taneb> Thanks, oerjan <-- yw. for what?
18:44:49 <oklopol> for instance it teaches people that C major is "easier" than D major.
18:44:57 <oklopol> and F# is just fucking crazy
18:45:12 <mroman> What's "easier" supposed to mean?
18:45:20 <Taneb> oerjan, reminding me about the Thue-Morse sequence
18:45:22 <oerjan> oklopol: well it's functional, of course it's crazy
18:45:24 <oklopol> i have no idea, i use the sensible system.
18:45:33 <oklopol> the fucking integers
18:45:33 <oerjan> Taneb: ah.
18:45:37 <itidus21> i knew there was a connection between functional programming and retarded musical notation
18:45:47 <mroman> ah
18:45:59 <oerjan> itidus21: puns connect all, man
18:45:59 <oklopol> there's a reason guitarrists prefer tabs, they make sense
18:46:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm
18:46:09 <oklopol> if you move one note up, you move your finger one note up
18:46:18 <mroman> Well, C major has no bs and no sharps
18:46:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about the CPU in Samsung Galaxy S3?
18:46:31 <Vorpal> and how do you check if that is the case
18:46:37 <oklopol> yes, the standard notation is great if you write everything in C major.
18:46:40 <Vorpal> err GPU
18:46:42 <Vorpal> not CPU
18:46:43 <mroman> which makes it easier because you don't have to rember them
18:46:50 <mroman> or infer them using tone distances.
18:47:10 <oerjan> i don't see what's retarded about the notation, if you use a keyboard
18:47:16 <Vorpal> oh right, that is a Mali-400MP
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18:47:38 <oklopol> oerjan: as long as it's in C major, nothing.
18:47:43 <Vorpal> hm nope
18:47:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: WP "Mali (GPU)" lists ES 3.0 only for the new T604 and T658.
18:47:48 <mroman> oklopol: What's the problem with d major?
18:47:49 <oklopol> and have a transpose button
18:47:50 <mroman> it has two bs, so?
18:47:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh well
18:48:00 <mroman> eh
18:48:02 <mroman> two sharps
18:48:14 <oerjan> oklopol: um you realize the unadorned letters match the white keys, i assume
18:48:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, interesting that it list renderscript for that as well, that is cool I guess.
18:48:21 <oklopol> mroman: it has two sharps so it's two harder. i've met decent musicians that really think like this.
18:48:36 <oklopol> unadorned?
18:48:39 <mroman> Well, it is.
18:48:44 <mroman> You have to memorize how many sharps it has
18:48:47 <oklopol> well okay
18:48:52 <oklopol> i guess i know what that is
18:48:55 <mroman> so that if you encounter an f, you still know that it is a fis and not an f
18:49:03 <oklopol> oerjan: in C major, yes.
18:49:14 <mroman> it's not that hard, but I get why one could consider it harder
18:49:28 <oklopol> you have to memorize how many sharps it has and where they are
18:49:41 <mroman> exactly.
18:49:46 <mroman> not a big deal imo.
18:49:52 <oklopol> and people spend years learning this when they could just learn the fucking integers
18:50:02 <fizzie> I am a fis.
18:50:05 <mroman> integers?
18:50:08 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
18:50:12 <itidus21> hz?
18:50:15 <oklopol> the integers, yes
18:50:22 <mroman> And that is?
18:50:25 <mroman> Every tone has a number?
18:50:28 <oklopol> yes
18:50:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the ARM page only lists OpenGL ES 2.0 for T604
18:50:33 <oklopol> put 0 somewhere.
18:50:53 <mroman> yeah and?
18:51:00 <oklopol> and that's your notation
18:51:06 <mroman> now I have to memorize tones as integers?
18:51:15 <mroman> and how do you write how long that 0 is?
18:51:15 <Vorpal> but it seems it is planned for those new higher end ones
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18:51:18 <Vorpal> oh well
18:51:24 <oklopol> yeah, you have to remember that first note is 0, the second is 1, the third is 2 etc
18:51:39 <soundnfury> mroman: you don't. You only use it for shitty instruments like guitars that just ring as long as they ring
18:51:41 <oklopol> mroman: i usually use 0.
18:51:48 <oklopol> that's a dot at the end, not a perio
18:51:49 <oklopol> d
18:51:54 <itidus21> <oklopol> yes, the standard notation is great if you write everything in C major. <-- enum notes = {c,cis,d,e,f,fis,g,gis,a,ais,c,cis or c,des,d,e,f,ges,g,a,b,c,des};
18:51:54 <mroman> First
18:52:00 <mroman> You cant assign every tone a number
18:52:05 <mroman> so
18:52:07 <mroman> 0 is C?
18:52:10 <mroman> and 1 is cis?
18:52:11 <mroman> 2 is d?
18:52:17 <itidus21> i added the <--
18:52:28 <itidus21> as a pun on write everything in C
18:52:34 <oklopol> mroman: yes
18:52:45 <mroman> You do recognize why this system is flawed?
18:52:46 <Taneb> ais should be 523
18:52:48 <oklopol> no
18:53:09 <soundnfury> Taneb: are you perchance a nethack player?
18:53:15 <Taneb> Nah
18:53:17 <mroman> You just assume half-tones steps
18:53:24 <Taneb> But ais523 is a regular in here?
18:53:28 <mroman> even though there are quarter-tones steps
18:53:31 <mroman> and more
18:53:34 <mroman> that'd make
18:53:36 <mroman> 1.5?
18:53:37 <Taneb> I tried to play nethack, but I'm not very good at it
18:53:40 <soundnfury> itidus21: enum tags should typically be in uppercase and begin with FOO_ for enum foo
18:53:49 <soundnfury> because they don't have their own namespace unlike struct tags
18:53:59 <oklopol> if you need them, come up with a notation for them.
18:54:02 <mroman> and that makes memorizing majors and minors just plain PITA
18:54:10 <soundnfury> Taneb: is he? I don't recall seeing him here
18:54:22 <oklopol> memorizing?
18:54:26 <mroman> There is a system behind those bs and sharps
18:54:30 <Taneb> I've... never encountered him outside this channel
18:54:32 <oklopol> what the fuck do you need to memorize
18:54:43 <Taneb> I know he plays nethack a lot, he tried to teach me
18:54:57 <mroman> oklopol: D major has two sharps
18:54:58 <soundnfury> Taneb: I recognise him from #nethack
18:54:58 <Taneb> `quote ais523
18:55:05 <mroman> so that tells me which tones it contains.
18:55:07 <HackEgo> 28) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 87) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 88) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 95) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 96) <ais523> theory:
18:55:12 <itidus21> `log ais523
18:55:30 <itidus21> i didnt know the 523 fwiw
18:55:35 <oklopol> the system behind those bs and sharps is that when you add 7 to {0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11}, only one number changes, and this holds by induction.
18:55:44 <HackEgo> No output.
18:55:48 <oklopol> and adding 7 happens to be a natural thing in music
18:55:50 <itidus21> `log ais523
18:55:57 <oklopol> taken (mod 12)
18:56:07 <HackEgo> 2009-03-17.txt:21:14:16: <ais523> just checked, it's calling /usr/lib/llvm/gcc-4.2/libexec/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.2.1/collect2
18:56:25 <soundnfury> oklopol: yes, but the point is with the "integers!" system, you have to memorise {0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11}
18:56:28 <oklopol> that's a great observation, and it's useful to know, but basing the whole notation on it is really, really stupid.
18:56:44 <oklopol> two sharps tells you which tones it contains?
18:56:47 <oklopol> what do you mean?
18:57:00 <soundnfury> like, what's a fifth above 0? Oh, it's 7, that's random
18:57:08 <mroman> two shaprs is f-sharp and c-sharp
18:57:20 <soundnfury> a minor seventh is 10, what is this shit
18:57:21 <mroman> so it's d -> d with f-sharp and c-sharp
18:57:23 <soundnfury> etc. etc.
18:58:30 <mroman> It would work using integers of course
18:58:41 <mroman> but I wouldn't say that it is for the better.
18:58:50 <oklopol> D is two sharps because you need to jump two fifths up to get there from C and the first sharps are f and c versus with my system transposing two steps up means you move two steps up.
18:58:54 <oklopol> which is easier?
18:59:12 <soundnfury> so if you want to do even the shallowest of analyses, in tab you can't
18:59:16 <oklopol> you don't have to remember *anything*
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18:59:30 <soundnfury> oklopol: how long does it take to work out whether {2 5 9} is a major or a minor chord?
18:59:41 <soundnfury> and what about {2 5 10}?
18:59:59 <soundnfury> whereas if I say "D F A" and "D F B♭", it's much easier
19:00:09 <mroman> Well
19:00:12 <soundnfury> they're D minor and B♭ major, and it's totally obvious
19:00:20 <mroman> Esperanto is easier than english
19:00:20 <soundnfury> you don't even have to compute anything mod 12
19:00:26 <oklopol> it's a great system for the concert pianist, but for a casual user or someone playing an instrument not built on the C major scale, it's a needless PITA.
19:00:36 <mroman> But people don't seem to switch to it :(
19:00:44 <soundnfury> it's a great system for anyone who wants to /understand/ the music they're playing
19:00:57 <mroman> oklopol: I hardly can imagine it being that hard to learn @the current system
19:01:00 <oklopol> true, i'm not touching this aspect, i just prefer calling retarded things retarded and leaving it at that.
19:01:33 <soundnfury> if you're going to play off tablature, you might as well just take yourself out of the loop and strap a MIDI controller to your instrument
19:02:04 <soundnfury> because you're not going to be producing meaningful expression if the notes are coming at you as a bunch of numbers
19:02:06 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:02:11 <oklopol> then you have either not tried to learn it, learned it in about 6 years through usage as a kid, or are smart.
19:02:12 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:02:42 <soundnfury> I guess I'm smart then, because it didn't take anything /like/ 6 years to learn
19:03:05 <mroman> Five lessons of flute playing and you got the system
19:03:10 <mroman> well enough for casual use.
19:03:19 <oklopol> i hated it from the beginning because it made no sense, so i never really became fluent in it, i just usually read the score and played from memory so i wouldn't have to look at that horrible shit
19:03:21 <mroman> Not the harmony theory kinda use.
19:03:37 <mroman> I've playde 5 years in an orchester and I have no clue about harmony theory stuff.
19:03:42 <mroman> *played
19:03:55 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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19:04:27 -!- elliott___ has joined.
19:04:35 -!- azaq23 has joined.
19:04:37 <elliott___> hi, I'm in here so I know when certain people come online, ignore me
19:04:49 <oklopol> i don't know any harmony theory either
19:04:51 <mroman> And most regular musicians not studying music have no clue either.
19:05:15 <oklopol> perhaps i would agree it's beautiful if someone showed a theoretical reason for it.
19:05:21 <Vorpal> elliott___, HELLO!
19:05:27 <elliott___> Vorpal: no
19:05:30 <mroman> Well
19:05:41 <mroman> The system stays because people are used to it.
19:05:43 <Vorpal> elliott___, come on, there is no way we are going to ignore you
19:05:53 <mroman> Like americans to their stupid system of distance measurements ;)
19:05:58 <oklopol> apart from the trivial set theoretic lemma which i have heard trained musicians praise in music class all my life ofc
19:05:59 <Vorpal> elliott___, we like you far too much
19:06:01 <Taneb> elliott___, you seem to have a lot of underscores after your name
19:06:01 <mroman> which makes no sense at all .
19:06:08 <elliott___> Vorpal: this channel is boring, though
19:06:11 <elliott___> Taneb: yes, I am avoiding someone
19:06:20 <Taneb> Aah
19:06:22 <mroman> Also
19:06:24 <Vorpal> elliott___, can you recommend any less boring channel?
19:06:25 <Taneb> May I ask who?
19:06:32 <mroman> a mile is different in probably every country that has that term :)
19:06:33 <oklopol> is it me? :((((((((((
19:06:38 <elliott___> Taneb: you don't know them
19:06:40 <oklopol> it's me i know it is :(
19:06:41 <elliott___> Vorpal: not really
19:06:41 <Taneb> Okay
19:06:43 <mroman> and with what thing you travel.
19:06:45 <elliott___> it's oklopol
19:06:48 <elliott___> (it's not oklopol)
19:06:52 <oklopol> i KN... oh.
19:06:54 <itidus21> if they came here, he probably wouldn't be hiding here
19:07:02 <Taneb> elliott___, I made it into the Haskell Weekly News quote list!
19:07:09 <soundnfury> oklopol: what set theoretic lemma?
19:07:12 <Vorpal> elliott___, just use an /ignore on whoever it is?
19:07:15 <mroman> Taneb: link?
19:07:15 <elliott___> Taneb: I saw!
19:07:19 <soundnfury> (the circle of fifths?)
19:07:26 <elliott___> Taneb: you will be the next elliott
19:07:30 <elliott___> or was it the next shachaf
19:07:38 <mroman> My dream is to upload a package to cabal once :)
19:07:38 <elliott___> one of us had quotes in subsequent issues for aaages
19:07:40 <mroman> eh
19:07:42 <Taneb> mroman: http://contemplatecode.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/haskell-weekly-news-issue-236.html
19:07:43 <mroman> *to hackage once
19:07:48 <Taneb> mroman, way ahead of you
19:07:52 <Taneb> @hackage family-tree
19:07:53 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/family-tree
19:08:04 <Taneb> thalliott___.
19:08:08 <Taneb> It seems to be shachaf
19:08:46 <oklopol> "<soundnfury> like, what's a fifth above 0? Oh, it's 7, that's random" only random because you're used to the retarded system, it's seven half-tones which i guess is fitting because you're a half-wit.
19:08:49 <elliott___> the secret is that most of the hwn quotes are bad
19:09:00 <Taneb> Who chooses them?
19:09:04 <Taneb> Is it oklopol?
19:09:07 <soundnfury> oklopol: um, what?
19:09:11 <elliott___> <Vorpal> elliott___, just use an /ignore on whoever it is?
19:09:12 <mroman> My latest quote on #haskell was
19:09:19 <elliott___> that would not solve the issue, I'm afraid
19:09:20 <mroman> "Now that I'm finnished writing my code I can throw it away"
19:09:43 <Vorpal> elliott___, oh? Report whoever it is to staff if he is harassing you.
19:09:44 <soundnfury> my point is that with the tab system you have to memorise how many semitones there are in a perfect fifth
19:09:51 <Vorpal> or she I guess
19:10:02 <Taneb> elliott___, use the fact that lambdabot is often an op you are a lambda-op to permanently ban them on all the channels that are worth it?
19:10:03 <mroman> (Which is what I'm usually doing when I finnished a code project)
19:10:16 <Taneb> Finnished a code project?
19:10:31 <mroman> Yeah, you know.
19:10:38 <mroman> "Hm. I'm gonna write $thing it'll be fun.
19:10:45 <Taneb> koodin projekti?
19:10:46 <Vorpal> elliott___, anyway can you recommend any less boring channels?
19:10:46 <elliott___> Vorpal: hmm, I don't feel like going to the trouble and it probably does not qualify as harrassment
19:10:47 <mroman> Ok. finnished. rm -rf /path"
19:10:55 <elliott___> Vorpal: i already said not really :p
19:10:56 <oklopol> and yes the cycle of fifths
19:11:09 <Vorpal> elliott___, which channels are you in apart from this one though?
19:11:11 <soundnfury> Taneb: looked at eniuq yet?
19:11:19 <Taneb> soundnfury, it looks... interesting
19:11:22 <soundnfury> heh
19:11:48 <Vorpal> elliott___, anyway how do the person avoid /ignore? changing nick? changing host?
19:12:01 <elliott___> Vorpal: I will just answer in /msg as that would be easier
19:12:04 <Vorpal> elliott___, sure
19:12:13 <Vorpal> elliott___, I only wish to help you
19:12:29 <fizzie> mroman: Completely destroying things is a very Finnish thing to do, yes.
19:12:40 <mroman> Is finnished spelled with one n?
19:12:49 <fizzie> Though I think it should be "rm -axe /path".
19:12:51 <Vorpal> mroman, yes.
19:12:57 <mroman> We' I be damned :(
19:13:02 <fizzie> Not when you actually Finnish something.
19:13:03 <soundnfury> fizzie: like kill -overboard?
19:13:06 <mroman> Ok.
19:13:17 <itidus21> mroman: but finnished is a reference to finland for almost free
19:13:19 <mroman> I meant when I finished writing my code I delete it afterwards.
19:13:37 <Vorpal> a lot of shouting outside, huh. Which is strange since this is a quiet part of town
19:13:38 <fizzie> Do you keep binaries?
19:13:44 <Vorpal> oh well
19:13:48 <mroman> Not on purpose.
19:13:49 <soundnfury> Taneb: I think it's turing-complete, but I'm buggered if I can prove it
19:16:30 <mroman> Sometimes I find binaries lingering around
19:16:33 <mroman> but seldom.
19:16:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:16:56 <mroman> and when I do, i delete theme.
19:17:08 <olsner> it's not completely finnished if you still have binaries lingering around
19:17:20 <itidus21> hahaha
19:17:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:17:56 <mroman> *them
19:18:31 <mroman> If I move servers all my eso stuff is gone :)
19:18:42 <itidus21> About 1,190,000 results for "finnished", About 709,000,000 results for "finished"
19:18:54 <mroman> I don't use backups.
19:18:57 <itidus21> im actually surprised theres > 1m for finnished
19:19:13 <mroman> I assume it's a common spelling mistake
19:19:14 <oerjan> soundnfury: i see you and vorpal mention n-dimensional handedness and groups in the logs but no mention of O(n) vs. SO(n) matrix (lie) groups?
19:19:22 <oerjan> (well so far anyway)
19:19:37 <oerjan> (i guess Vorpal implied that would be too heavy)
19:20:31 <itidus21> the google results say nokia is finnished
19:20:57 -!- edwardk has joined.
19:21:20 <soundnfury> oerjan: well, I seemed to be confusing people quite thoroughly enough without O(n) and SO(n)
19:21:32 <elliott___> oerjan: can you do the work required for me to feature another language please, it is so overdue
19:21:35 <elliott___> thx
19:22:22 <oerjan> argh
19:23:12 <elliott___> i like how everyone is adding languages without putting them on the language list these days
19:23:37 <soundnfury> why is there a language list separate from Category:Languages?
19:23:38 <elliott___> but hey, I upgraded MediaWiki the other day!
19:23:44 <elliott___> soundnfury: because it has a nicer organisation
19:24:01 <elliott___> ideally it would be generated from the category
19:24:17 <Vorpal> just write a mediawiki plugin for that
19:24:20 <Vorpal> have fun with php
19:24:47 <elliott___> i'll pass
19:25:21 <fizzie> Incidentally, there was an ad for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Cola in a restaurant the-day-before-yesterday.
19:25:25 <fizzie> Sadly, they were all out.
19:25:39 <Vorpal> cool
19:25:43 <fizzie> The company had brought them two cases for promotional use, but they hadn't managed to get any more.
19:25:45 <itidus21> ahh.. must be a rival to open source cola
19:25:58 <fizzie> It's not related to the operating system as far as I know.
19:26:04 <fizzie> But it would've been kinda-sorta funny.
19:26:39 <itidus21> "Ubuntu Cola should not be confused with "open source" colas such as OpenCola." ah ok
19:26:40 <mroman> Cannonical going into the soft drink industry
19:26:52 <fizzie> It was the hippie-est place I've been in quite a while. http://leuven.lovinghut.be/BG-LEUVEN-EN/home/ -- see e.g. the bits about Supreme Master Ching Hai.
19:27:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, where is that mentioned?
19:27:41 <elliott___> fizzie: have you ever noticed that all third-brand colas taste identical
19:27:55 <elliott___> that coffee looks nice
19:28:07 <fizzie> The "Environment" and "About us" pages, at least.
19:28:19 <itidus21> ubuntu is the solaris of the cola world
19:30:12 <fizzie> To be fair, there was nothing wrong with the food, and they weren't aggressively hippy or anything, it was mostly just the web page.
19:30:36 <fizzie> Okay, the "oh so fair" organic ice tea/lemonade was kinda bitter.
19:31:08 <fizzie> (It said "oh so fair" in the can.)
19:31:13 <elliott___> `addquote <itidus21> ubuntu is the solaris of the cola world
19:31:16 <HackEgo> 853) <itidus21> ubuntu is the solaris of the cola world
19:31:48 <Vorpal> :D
19:32:43 <Taneb> elliott___, says someone who comes from the home of Fentiman's
19:32:49 <itidus21> theres a german beer named Fucking Hell
19:33:25 <oerjan> itidus21: not austrian? that's where Fucking is, afaik. although they're not too keen on the pun.
19:33:41 <oerjan> (Hell for beer in german means light, i think)
19:34:08 <mroman> Nah.
19:34:14 <mroman> Hell is "clear"
19:34:14 <oerjan> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helles
19:34:26 <fizzie> I think they were reconsidering the name change again in Fucking; last time it didn't go through.
19:34:32 <itidus21> "The EU's trademarks authority has permitted a German firm to brew beer and produce clothing under the name "Fucking Hell"."
19:34:39 <oerjan> mroman: well the pun would work, anyway
19:35:26 <itidus21> oerjan: you're correct, thats what the beer means, it's not meant to be an expletive
19:35:28 <mroman> hm.
19:35:29 <mroman> ok
19:35:31 <mroman> "light"
19:35:44 <elliott___> <Taneb> elliott___, says someone who comes from the home of Fentiman's
19:35:46 <elliott___> i have disgraced my town
19:35:49 <mroman> not in the sense of coke light
19:35:57 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:57 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:58 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:58 <Taneb> elliott___, :(
19:35:58 <elliott___> `quote
19:35:58 <elliott___> `quote
19:36:00 <mroman> more like light brown :)
19:36:03 <Taneb> :( :( :(
19:36:12 <HackEgo> 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
19:36:34 <HackEgo> 655) <Vorpal> oh my god <Vorpal> that is one ugly solution <elliott> beautiful
19:36:34 <HackEgo> 477) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck
19:36:35 <HackEgo> 501) <Patashu> it's the pain of the gaps argument <Patashu> no matter how good your robot is at feeling pain <Patashu> it's never close enough
19:36:35 <HackEgo> 716) <coppro> ... goddamit I'm having a discussion about the literary qualities of a Pokemon game
19:36:47 <oerjan> en:light can be either no:lys(t) or no:lett, which have the two different meanings
19:37:08 <elliott___> hmm, all of those are bad except the first three
19:37:08 <mroman> Apparentely the Sign of "Fucking" is stolen by tourists a lot :D
19:37:10 <elliott___> so two of them are bad
19:37:14 <elliott___> alsothe first one is quite bad and the second one isn't so good
19:37:19 <Taneb> ^ul ((:< )S:^):^
19:37:19 <fungot> :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< :< ...too much output!
19:37:22 <oerjan> except that americans use light to mean low-calorie beer, while norwegians use lett to mean low-_alcohol_ beer
19:37:25 <elliott___> the third one is good though, probably the best quote in the database
19:37:30 <fizzie> mroman: I believe that's a major reason why they keep considering the name change.
19:37:34 <oerjan> which has ... confused some tourists.
19:38:45 <mroman> Renaming a City because it's name has a different meaning in some other languages is
19:38:48 <mroman> well..
19:38:56 <mroman> there are probably thousands of such cities :D
19:38:59 <mroman> or villages.
19:39:16 <itidus21> i read that it was during one of the wars that the Fucking people learned of the problem
19:40:08 <fizzie> We have some sort of a numbering scheme when it comes to beer; they have grades I (0-2.8%), III (3.7-4.7%), IV A/B (4.8-5.8%/above) where the %s are alcohol volume percentages.
19:40:17 <fizzie> Grade II isn't in use in Finland.
19:40:25 <oerjan> mroman: i saw in a newspaper article that they recently managed to get the sign secured enough that some thieves gave up. whether that lasted, it naturally didn't say.
19:40:38 <oerjan> (they dug a foundation for it.)
19:41:00 <mroman> So
19:41:20 <mroman> Foreign media reports about a stolen sign in some very small village?
19:41:30 <mroman> Damn media.
19:41:54 <mroman> The devil of this epoch.
19:42:04 <oerjan> mroman: yep.
19:42:54 <oerjan> meanwhile, no one is about to change the name of Hell, half an hour drive from here. in fact i think someone suggested changing the name of the whole municipality to Hell.
19:43:42 <mroman> I think it's stupid to rename stuff because of it's meaning in a totally different language.
19:43:57 <mroman> For all we know westend might be a term for assface in some african language.
19:44:00 <itidus21> theres a wonderfully named place in futurama
19:44:02 <Taneb> oerjan, there's a Hell in Jamaica, too
19:44:20 <Vorpal> <oerjan> except that americans use light to mean low-calorie beer, while norwegians use lett to mean low-_alcohol_ beer <-- we do the same in Sweden (lättöl is low alcohol)
19:44:28 <oerjan> Taneb: yeah i think that was mentioned last time we had this kind of discussion
19:45:07 <Taneb> There's a place somewhere down south called Bishop's Itchington
19:45:24 <itidus21> Professor: "Good news, everyone." Bender: "Uh oh. I don't like the sound of that."
19:45:40 <mroman> hehe
19:45:44 <itidus21> Professor: "You'll be making a delivery to the planet Trisol." Bender: "Here it comes."
19:46:02 <itidus21> Professor: "A mysterious world in the darkest depths of the Forbidden Zone." Bender: "Thank you, and goodnight."
19:46:21 <itidus21> Leela: "Uh, Professor, are we even allowed in the Forbidden Zone?"
19:46:26 <mroman> There's Dubbeldam in Nederland :)
19:46:34 <oerjan> mroman: this kind of silly news is of course traditional summer news in norway and probably elsewhere, it's called "agurktid" ("cucumber time")
19:46:42 <itidus21> Professor: "Why, of course! It's just a name, like the Death Zone or the Zone of No Return. All the zones have names like that in the Galaxy of Terror."
19:46:57 <ion> itidus: :-)
19:47:08 <mroman> Dubbeldam = Dubbel + Dam(m)
19:47:16 <ion> + Dam(n)
19:47:17 <oerjan> presumably because it also includes news like "giant cucumber grown in namdal" or whatever
19:47:27 <mroman> Which means "stupid dam" in my language :)
19:48:23 <Vorpal> hm how the fuck can there be a cross platform library between windows, linux, os X, android and javascript/webgl. How does that even work....
19:48:23 <fizzie> I don't recall any Finnish place names that'd be stupid in other languages (I know about). Though "Ii" is pretty stupid overall.
19:49:39 <Vorpal> hm can't think of any Swedish place with such a name either, though there probably is one
19:49:41 <fizzie> (I mean, look at the road sign in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ii,_Finland for example.)
19:49:45 <oerjan> ^ul ((Finnmark )S:^):^
19:49:46 <fungot> Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark Finnmark ...too much output!
19:50:20 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:20 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:21 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:21 <itidus21> fizzie: that merited a laugh aloud
19:50:21 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:21 <elliott___> `quote
19:50:34 <HackEgo> 505) <itidus20> now theodore seuss is dead... so screw him
19:50:45 <itidus21> lol what
19:50:49 <HackEgo> 112) <pikhq> And... WTF is it doing. <pikhq> :( <Sgeo_> Is it sexing?
19:50:49 <HackEgo> 283) * Received a CTCP VERSION from nyuszika7h * VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2011 64-bit (Windows 8 Beta, x64, 2GB RAM) <nyuszika7h> Gregor: Windows 8 Beta? o_O <Gregor> A small benefit of my brief time as an intern at MS.
19:50:49 <mroman> Doesn't swedish have a verb "fuck"?
19:50:49 <HackEgo> 398) <Phantom_Hoover> The wickedest man of all. <Phantom_Hoover> Surpassed only in wickedness by the wicked witches of the west and east. <copumpkin> you talking about me again? <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. <copumpkin> k
19:50:51 <HackEgo> 281) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: if the list is in random order, like poor ehird here
19:50:56 <mroman> which does not mean english fuck?
19:51:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, the Swedish name for Ii seems better
19:51:21 <Vorpal> Ijo
19:51:32 <Vorpal> kind of strange still
19:52:22 <mroman> Or maybe that was another language
19:52:46 <Vorpal> anyway there is Hjo in Sweden (pronounced "jo", no that is not how it should be pronounced normally, it is a strange exception that the h is not pronounced in this case). However "jo" is colloquial for "yes"
19:52:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: They have an "Yli-Ii" (Överijo) too.
19:53:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice
19:53:17 <mroman> oh
19:53:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you pronounce Ii or Ijo?
19:53:23 <mroman> swedish has "fick"
19:53:24 <oerjan> Vorpal: wait, swedish pronunces h in hj?
19:53:28 <mroman> which means fuck in german.
19:53:36 <Vorpal> mroman, is that a location?
19:53:40 <mroman> no
19:53:46 <mroman> not that I know.
19:53:53 <Vorpal> oerjan, actually, no not usually, I guess
19:53:57 <Vorpal> never mind
19:54:07 <mroman> Theres ficksmossen in finnland
19:54:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, well actually we do sometimes I'm pretty sure, but very faintly
19:54:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, might be dialectal?
19:54:36 <itidus21> those quotes are mostly good.. i think mine is the poorest of the lot
19:54:53 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
19:55:19 <Vorpal> oerjan, I think it is dialectal and only in some words that we pronounce that. Can't think of any examples atm though
19:55:23 <itidus21> you know life is tough when you're getting sympathy from fungot
19:55:24 <fungot> itidus21: mr president, i should like to focus is the programme's budget to eur 2 500 million over a period of four months for the preparation of the first pillar receives the aspect of travel outside the european union
19:55:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'd pronounce "Ii" as /i:/. I don't really know about Ijo though.
19:56:00 <Vorpal> hm okay
19:56:18 <mroman> Although nobody considers my language as an official language :D
19:57:19 <fizzie> There was a small island somewhere with a stupid Swedish name (thanks to your "ö" word), but I've forgotten it.
19:57:30 <oerjan> "Så var har du varit?" "Hjo." * gives up on finishing who's on first parody.
19:57:43 <mroman> ö word?
19:57:49 <Vorpal> mroman, anyway we have "sex" as both "six" and "sex", the latter meaning a loan word from English
19:58:15 <Vorpal> oerjan, :D
19:58:22 <Vorpal> mroman, ?
19:58:27 <Vorpal> ö = island
19:59:13 <fizzie> I'm sure there's also silly ø names in Denmark. (Norwegians seem to have made it a bit arguably less silly øy.)
19:59:14 <Vorpal> (langauge designers: get your priorities straight when deciding which words need short representations!)
19:59:29 <oerjan> fizzie: we have "Å", though.
19:59:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, silly ö names? What
19:59:53 <fizzie> Well, if you have a short thing before ö, it can easily lead to something stupid.
19:59:55 <Vorpal> also å means uh... what do you call something between river and stream in English?
20:00:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, how so?
20:00:36 <oklopol> we have some words that sound funny in english, but dunno about writing
20:01:04 <oerjan> Umeå
20:01:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, IMO short names are more easily silly-sounding. (See: Ii.)
20:01:09 <Vorpal> oerjan, what about it?
20:01:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: it _is_ sort of funny sounding, isn't it
20:01:42 <Vorpal> oerjan, well, not to me
20:01:54 <Vorpal> well I guess "uh-eh-oh"?
20:01:57 <fizzie> You have an Å in Norrköping, apparently. And Norway was just lousy with Ås.
20:01:59 <Vorpal> um*
20:02:00 <oerjan> meanwhile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grong
20:02:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, eh? I don't know the geography in Norrköping, is it an å named Å
20:02:40 <fizzie> It's a village.
20:02:47 <mroman> Vorpal: We too.
20:02:47 <Vorpal> åh
20:02:54 <Vorpal> mroman, ?
20:02:57 <oklopol> or at least poo without the aspiration means tree.
20:02:58 * coppro stabs computer
20:03:02 <coppro> unicode is not working :/
20:03:02 <mroman> In german there is "sex" and "sechs"
20:03:08 <Vorpal> ah
20:03:14 <mroman> But swiss german does not hav a sound distinction between x and chs
20:03:16 <oerjan> fizzie: i wasn't aware we had _that_ many.
20:03:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though I'm sure there's some sort of a stream nearby.
20:03:18 <mroman> but real germans have.
20:03:20 <Vorpal> heh
20:03:39 <fizzie> oerjan: Wikipedia lists 8 current, one former.
20:03:48 <oklopol> mroman: is it dialect-dependent whether it's pronounced sex or se*cough out your lungs*s
20:04:11 <oklopol> (i don't have unicode so i'll use this layman's description.)
20:04:13 <mroman> I don't know any swiss dialect which would pronounce them differently.
20:04:18 <oklopol> oh
20:04:23 <oklopol> i guess you just answered that.
20:04:36 <mroman> so whether it is "sex" or "sechs" is inferred from context.
20:04:45 <oklopol> hmm, perhaps not
20:04:51 <mroman> ok
20:04:56 <mroman> I know one :)
20:05:09 <fizzie> There's a number-"joke" that if you say 9 in English, then 9 in German, then 9 in Finnish, and interpret the whole spoken thing in Finnish, it vaguely sounds like saying "I fucked approximately nine" in Finnish.
20:05:23 <mroman> It's pronounced "sächs" in some dialects.
20:05:48 <mroman> and chs depending on dialect is either x or *cough your lungs out * ;)
20:05:53 <oklopol> mroman: that doesn't help, how is ch pronoun... oh.
20:06:27 <mroman> How to pronounce ch?
20:06:28 <fizzie> ("Nain noin yhdeksän", and the Finnish pronounciations of "nain" and "noin" kind of approximate en:'nine' and de:'neun'.)
20:06:31 <oklopol> yeah alright. my german teacher in elementary school kind of sucked (the r is really hard, you can just use the finnish one).
20:06:32 <oerjan> <mroman> Although nobody considers my language as an official language :D <-- your language is neither french, german, italian or ret * looks it up * romansh?
20:06:51 <mroman> Like you got slime in your pharynx and you want it to get out :)
20:07:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:07:07 <mroman> oklopol: Some swiss consider swiss german to be an own language ;)
20:07:25 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:07:32 <oklopol> also "nain noin yhdeksn" means "i married about nine".
20:07:52 <fizzie> Well, that's arguable.
20:07:59 <mroman> But when it comes to "how to pronounce $thing in swiss german" I can probably give you six alternative pronounciations :)
20:08:10 <mroman> *pronunciation
20:08:45 <mroman> Although swiss german is dying of course
20:08:47 <oklopol> fizzie: is it?
20:08:50 <mroman> Due to the influence of regular german.
20:08:50 <soundnfury> I could only tell you the german german pronunciations, which aren't exactly germane
20:09:33 <mroman> German has at least two different "ch" sounds.
20:09:38 <oklopol> i can't think of another meaning
20:09:45 <mroman> The one in "Ich" and the one in "Ach"
20:10:35 <oklopol> ich is the normal h and ach the lung thing?
20:11:10 <oerjan> germane german germs
20:11:17 <oklopol> i read part of the group theory article in german wikipedia today and understood pretty much everything in the first two paragraphs :)
20:11:23 <mroman> oklopol: Yeah.
20:11:35 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:35 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:36 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:37 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:37 <elliott___> `quote
20:11:46 <mroman> Although your lungs have nothing to do with it.
20:11:49 <HackEgo> 385) <oklofok> what would you ever need petrol for <oklofok> newsflash: it doesn't actually taste that good
20:12:01 <oklopol> there was something like hinterundereinander which i couldn't quite understand.
20:12:01 <mroman> It's more of a snore sound :)
20:12:04 <HackEgo> 97) <Keiya> I want a patent on common sense <Keiya> It wouldn't get me much though >_>
20:12:04 <HackEgo> 30) <zzo38> I am not on the moon.
20:12:05 <HackEgo> 764) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
20:12:05 <HackEgo> 613) <fizzie> Spacegoat is the network-operations-optimized-for-latency-of-minutes-or-hours-due-to-light-speed-limits variant of scapegoat, to be used when you need to check out some code from the Mars colony. <fizzie> (I'm pretty sure we'll have established a Mars colony by the time scapegoat rolls out.)
20:12:14 <mroman> oklopol: hinter und untereinander
20:12:16 <oklopol> mroman: yeah it was a silly description
20:12:18 <elliott___> imo 97
20:12:22 <fizzie> oklopol: See sense 2 of http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/naida
20:12:22 <elliott___> fizzie?
20:12:23 <elliott___> oerjan?
20:12:33 <oklopol> oops it was Hintereinanderausfhren
20:12:52 <nortti> I remeber 764
20:13:28 <mroman> hinderenand usfüärä
20:13:34 <oklopol> fuhren with umlaut means to lead and kill jews and shit, aus is out, einander is each other and hinter is behind.
20:13:37 <oerjan> i assume 764 would be funny if i knew the terms.
20:13:39 <oklopol> lead out behind each other?
20:13:40 <mroman> oklopol: No.
20:13:52 <oklopol> oh
20:13:55 <mroman> except for the lead part ;)
20:13:56 <elliott___> oerjan: hint: they do not mean that
20:14:22 <oerjan> <mroman> Although your lungs have nothing to do with it. <-- your uvula may not survive, however.
20:14:25 <oklopol> einander isn't each other?
20:14:49 <mroman> einander is each other
20:14:51 <oklopol> i'm at least pretty damn sure that hinter is behind
20:15:09 <mroman> correct.
20:15:26 <oklopol> you just mean that's not the way to actually understand that?
20:15:32 <oklopol> because i kind of figured that might be the case
20:15:49 <elliott___> `delquote 97
20:15:52 <mroman> To what are you referring no?
20:15:54 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <Keiya> I want a patent on common sense <Keiya> It wouldn't get me much though >_>
20:15:54 <elliott___> rest
20:15:56 <oerjan> elliott___: that is what i assumed
20:16:07 <oerjan> finally we have eradicated common sense!
20:16:33 <mroman> hintereinander is one after another
20:16:48 <oerjan> anaufhinterinnebenüberuntervorundzwischen
20:16:50 <mroman> depending on context of course.
20:16:59 <oklopol> also unzerlegbaren is awesome, legen is put or something, bar is able, zer is often about breaking shit, un is, well, un. so this means indecomposable.
20:17:02 <mroman> Does your language not have spaces?
20:17:17 <mroman> You mean unzerlegbar
20:17:18 <oerjan> spacesareoverrated
20:17:19 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol!
20:17:50 <mroman> and it means you can't take it apart.
20:17:58 <oklopol> mroman: sorry copypasted.
20:18:23 <mroman> the en is a case thingy.
20:18:28 <oerjan> oklopol: so basically if you see zerführen, it's time to run as fast as you can
20:18:28 <mroman> don't know the linguistic term for that.
20:18:33 <mroman> unzerlegbar
20:18:38 <mroman> Ein unzerlegbares Objekt.
20:18:39 <oklopol> mroman: btw what oerjan said is something foreigners use to learn those, do you learn them?
20:18:43 <mroman> Mit einem unzerlegbaren Objekt.
20:18:47 <oklopol> mroman: yes i know how nouns work in german
20:19:20 <mroman> oklopol: you mean 22:16 < oerjan> anaufhinterinnebenüberuntervorundzwischen
20:19:23 <mroman> ?
20:19:42 <oklopol> unzerlegbaren in this case was, afaiu, the genitive case of something in plural.
20:19:48 <oklopol> mroman: yes
20:19:56 <oerjan> prepositions governing either accusative or dative, depending
20:20:00 <oklopol> Eine der herausragenden mathematischen Leistungen des 20. Jahrhunderts ist die Klassifikation aller einfachen endlichen Gruppen, also der unzerlegbaren Bausteine aller endlichen Gruppen.
20:20:05 <mroman> What do you mean by "do you learn them"
20:20:08 <mroman> I don't have to learn german.
20:20:32 <mroman> Not anymore.
20:20:37 <oklopol> but i assume you still have some sort of german lessons, so i was wondering if there's some reason to learn those.
20:20:45 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:45 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:46 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:46 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:49 <elliott___> is it 4 or 5
20:20:50 <elliott___> `quote
20:20:55 <HackEgo> 818) <Ngevd> And I may soon lack both a head and a wall
20:20:57 <oklopol> i mean had in school
20:21:02 <HackEgo> 540) <fizzie> I tend to debase64 with perl -MMIME::Base64 -e 'print decode_base64("...");', because at least PERL stands for "PERL ein't-no ruddy-poo lol-GNU".
20:21:05 <mroman> Ah. Yes.
20:21:08 <HackEgo> 194) <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, Jesus' Y chromosome was clearly GOD'S.
20:21:09 <HackEgo> 719) <elliott> I hate you.
20:21:09 <HackEgo> 472) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, the origin of suffering is desire for e-book readers.
20:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover> 719.
20:21:35 <mroman> But Swiss learning German is something totally different.
20:21:44 <mroman> We just pronounce stuff differently
20:21:47 <oklopol> durchfurgegenohneum... something :D
20:21:51 <Sgeo_> Is what 4 or 5?
20:21:56 <mroman> and have own words for some stuff.
20:21:57 <oklopol> again i can't do umlaut on this kb
20:22:05 <elliott___> `delquote 719
20:22:08 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <elliott> I hate you.
20:22:09 <mroman> But besides that a swiss does not need to learn german vocabulary.
20:22:22 <elliott___> Sgeo_: the number of quoutes
20:22:48 <mroman> Not like you have to ;)
20:22:53 <mroman> We have grammar and spelling lessons.
20:23:07 <mroman> and writing.
20:23:12 <oklopol> mroman: well that's why i was wondering, it seems that datives and accusatives are something that you don't have to learn, so perhaps you've never even heard anaufhinterinnebenüberuntervorundzwischen even though pretty much everyone who learns german in finland has.
20:23:49 <oklopol> it's like the most important thing, i bet there are even songs about it.
20:24:00 <mroman> No, in german we already have datives and accusatives
20:24:04 <oerjan> oklopol: in fact i'm thinking about a song whenever i try to remember it :P
20:24:06 <mroman> so no need to learn those ;)
20:24:11 <mroman> We don't have the genitive case though.
20:24:30 <mroman> But genitive is dying anyway
20:24:41 <WHAT_DOWN> ablative or gtfo
20:24:42 <mroman> Even germans start using the dative where genitive would actually be correct.
20:24:49 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXMQDfwXzSQ
20:25:27 <mroman> We say "em ma siis auto" - "Dem Mann sein Auto"
20:25:36 <oklopol> genitive is my favorite case in german, i use it for everything
20:25:40 <mroman> even though technically it has to be "Des Mannes Auto"
20:25:45 <mroman> or "Das Auto des Mannes"
20:25:57 <oklopol> erm
20:26:01 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
20:26:04 <oklopol> germans say that?
20:26:09 <oklopol> i'm not sure i believe you
20:26:11 <mroman> say what?
20:26:21 <oklopol> Dem Mann sein Auto
20:26:23 <oklopol> erm
20:26:36 <mroman> Rarely
20:26:43 <mroman> but "Das Auto vom Mann"
20:26:46 <mroman> is quite common.
20:27:03 <oklopol> Des Mannes Auto o_O
20:27:04 <elliott___> `WELCOME epicmonkey
20:27:05 <mroman> which is also not really the correct way to go.
20:27:07 <HackEgo> EPICMONKEY: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
20:27:09 <oklopol> that's technically correct??
20:27:15 <oklopol> hmm.
20:27:41 <mroman> oklopol: Yes.
20:28:00 <oklopol> yeah on second thought it doesn't look crazy.
20:28:08 <mroman> oklopol: Best known sentence for that
20:28:12 <mroman> "Des Mannes bestes Stück"
20:28:20 <mroman> (aka genitals)
20:28:36 <oklopol> what's stck
20:28:50 <mroman> Stück? It's "piece"
20:29:07 <oklopol> das auto vom mann is taught in school
20:29:14 <oerjan> sadly, Øystein Sunde's funny lyrics are incomprehensible if you don't know norwegian. and sometimes even then.
20:29:18 <oklopol> as what's replacing genitive
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20:29:40 <mroman> Das Auto vom Mann is grammatically correct.
20:30:04 <mroman> but some people consider it to be bad style
20:30:10 <mroman> as usually you'd use genitive for that.
20:30:11 <oklopol> yeah this is also taught in school
20:30:38 <mroman> But people don't really "dig" genetive so they avoid it at all cost :D
20:30:54 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: do another `quote round, I am lazy
20:31:02 <oerjan> (also they're pretty much unpronouncable to anyone else, including norwegians.)
20:31:28 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <HackEgo> 341) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <Phantom_Hoover> That is the thing that made me into a gay vampire.
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> `quote
20:31:31 <oklopol> oerjan: what are you talking about?
20:31:39 <oklopol> oh
20:31:42 <oklopol> you linked something.
20:31:42 <HackEgo> 842) <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, like Glasgow but nicer <Taneb> So, not like Glasgow at all
20:31:54 <HackEgo> 824) <monqy> imagine hitting a brick wall really really hard but you don't do anything to it. instead you explode. <monqy> that's what it's like for people who hit you
20:31:54 <HackEgo> 730) <fizzie> oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? <oerjan> fizzie: +47 <fizzie> oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. <fizzie> I... guess you are geographically, too.
20:31:55 <HackEgo> 387) <oklofok> if i became a serial killer, it'd be because i want to kill people, not because i'm crazy
20:32:04 <oerjan> oklopol: that song that i use to remember the prepositions
20:32:05 <oklopol> oerjan: first sentence had tysk = german!!
20:32:08 <elliott___> `delquote 387
20:32:11 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <oklofok> if i became a serial killer, it'd be because i want to kill people, not because i'm crazy
20:32:22 <mroman> Why are you learning german?
20:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> What's 824's context?
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20:32:30 <elliott___> monqys-crawl
20:33:02 <mroman> Warum lernst du Deutsch :)
20:33:03 <oerjan> Wegen des Krieges brauchten wir keinen Genitiven
20:33:50 <oklopol> mroman: hab keine achnung, kinder tun dumme dinge. also i have no active vocabulary so i can't say anything.
20:33:51 <mroman> *Genitiv
20:34:09 <oklopol> mroman: you just said genetive yourself :P
20:34:15 <mroman> (... wir keinen Genitiv)
20:34:16 <oklopol> og
20:34:17 <oklopol> oh
20:34:20 <oklopol> you were correcting case
20:34:22 <oklopol> sorry.
20:34:38 <mroman> And it's Ahnung ;)
20:34:40 <mroman> no ch sound there
20:34:54 <oklopol> mroman: couldn't it have been a plural of genitive in oerjan's sentence?
20:35:00 <oklopol> keine
20:35:14 <oklopol> since brauchen perhaps takes accusative
20:35:19 <mroman> That would require "keine" instead of "keinen", yes.
20:35:21 <oklopol> argh i know nothing
20:35:24 <oklopol> okay.
20:35:31 <mroman> and the plural of Genitiv is Genitive probably.
20:35:44 <mroman> instead of Genitiven.
20:36:01 <oklopol> shouldn't you know? :P
20:36:03 <oerjan> mroman: ok, *keine Genitive is what i meant
20:36:13 <oklopol> okay perhaps not if you speak your own version.
20:36:15 <mroman> I'm not sure that you can put cases into plural.
20:36:24 <mroman> but if you can it's Genitive
20:37:04 <oerjan> i was mainly just flaunting the only preposition i remembered actually using the genitive, anyhow
20:37:19 <oklopol> mroman: a more elaborate answer would be that we could choose between swedish and german in fifth grade and german is more interesting.
20:37:42 <mroman> Ah.
20:37:49 <mroman> At least you don't HAVE TO learn french in school
20:37:52 <epicmonkey> HackEgo: not enough RAEG
20:38:01 <mroman> we do :(
20:38:08 <fizzie> mroman: We HAVE TO learn Swedish, though, and that's a point which many people dislike.
20:38:14 <mroman> I had 8 years french in school.
20:38:22 <mroman> I forgot everything.
20:38:29 <mroman> Except my passive reading vocabulary.
20:38:33 <oklopol> i had 12 years of school. i forgot everything.
20:38:54 <oklopol> should've gone straight to university
20:38:55 <elliott___> epicmonkey: raeg
20:38:56 <elliott___> really
20:39:18 <oklopol> i can somewhat read french based on english
20:39:38 <mroman> I spent two semester at kindergarden university and I learned nothing :)
20:39:45 <oerjan> fungot: show epicmonkey some RAEG
20:39:46 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, the importance of this in ireland where we have to look into our own court. there are three fairy fnord for the poorest countries, modelled on the dublin agenda.
20:39:58 <oklopol> and today i was reading about crane flies at work in italian
20:40:00 <oerjan> ^style ct
20:40:00 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
20:40:05 <oerjan> fungot: try again
20:40:06 <fungot> oerjan: but, we are far outnumbered! okay! no...! help! no human's gonna talk. we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
20:40:09 <oklopol> because one attacked me and the italian article is longer than the english one.
20:40:34 <elliott___> how come there are like three monkeys that have come to this channel
20:40:46 <oklopol> BAN THE MONKEYS!!
20:40:56 <oerjan> who's the third?
20:41:13 <mroman> I feel like a monkey studying something I don't want to .
20:41:17 -!- oklopol has set topic: last topic change: today | monkeys not welcome unless they bring bananas | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
20:41:27 <elliott___> oerjan: who's the second
20:41:31 <oerjan> we cannot ban monqy, he's an essential part of the fundament of reality
20:41:43 <elliott___> greasemonkey
20:41:48 <oklopol> does he have bananas, i like bananas
20:41:49 <oerjan> although not currently present, which probably means we are doomed
20:41:50 <elliott___> why would you ban monqy, ban the others instead imho
20:41:53 <elliott___> he is sleeping
20:42:02 <oerjan> i haven't seen greasemonkey for ages
20:42:12 <elliott___> it's ok he's boring
20:42:54 <oklopol> mroman: i think man is the only animal that studies things they don't want to study. monkeys only do it for the bananas.
20:43:12 <mroman> Yeah.
20:43:23 <oklopol> so i guess add "without getting bananas in return" after my first sentence
20:43:28 <mroman> In order to live a happy life life has to be simple.
20:44:06 <epicmonkey> oklopol: this is discrimination, my fellow primate
20:44:39 <oklopol> epicmonkey: I'M STRONGLY OPPOSED TO MONKEYS BECAUSE THEIR FUR IS DIFFERENT COLOR THAN MINE.
20:45:16 <oklopol> really i'm just jealous because my fur is ridiculously thin.
20:45:38 <epicmonkey> then grow it like a boss!
20:45:51 <mroman> Stop waxing .
20:46:25 <mroman> and use drugs for your hair.
20:47:03 <mroman> Using drugs is cool, as opposed to what everybody tells
20:47:16 <elliott___> hi
20:47:28 <mroman> hi
20:47:29 <oklopol> i've waxed a few times when someone has told me it really really hurts.
20:47:35 <oklopol> (it doesn't)
20:48:00 <mroman> Pain is really subjective.
20:48:00 <oklopol> also i shave my beard nowadays because i'm a sheep :(
20:48:05 <oklopol> yes
20:49:32 <oklopol> people have very different reactions to small amounts of pain. i like to think that people still feel them the same way, because i'm a romantic.
20:50:12 <mroman> I wouldn't say so.
20:50:24 <mroman> Afaik there are two types of nerves thingies.
20:50:29 <mroman> One that triggers non-pain
20:50:34 <mroman> and one that triggers pain
20:50:40 <mroman> based on a treshold.
20:51:05 <mroman> so you can actually distinguish touching something with pain
20:51:21 <Phantom_Hoover> What happens if you only trigger the non-pain
20:51:25 <mroman> or from pain
20:51:26 <oklopol> do you mean "from pain"?
20:51:28 <oklopol> hmm
20:51:32 <mroman> oklopol: yeah.
20:51:39 <mroman> english of me not so good is
20:51:56 <mroman> the hearing part is perfect.
20:51:58 <oklopol> that's actually english of *mine*
20:52:00 <mroman> the writing part not so much.
20:52:06 <oklopol> english of mine not so good is
20:52:11 <elliott___>
20:52:20 <mroman> english of mine not so good is sounds still like Yoda speaking.
20:52:40 <mroman> (which was my intention)
20:52:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (I think poor elliott___ feels left out)
20:53:00 <oerjan> mine eyes, what horrors do they see
20:53:09 <mroman> (Get a beer!)
20:53:25 <epicmonkey> What are you talking about? The real question is: how many monkeys does it take to change a light bulb?
20:53:27 <oklopol> i can only parse "sounds still like yoda speaking" if still is an adjective, but perhaps we could leave this subtopic, i'm not sure what its point is :D
20:54:08 <mroman> yeah
20:54:13 <mroman> it's probably still sounds ;)
20:54:19 <oerjan> oklopol: your parsing is deficient, it should notice the presence of the word "yoda" and switch to a more flexible grammar.
20:54:25 <mroman> more like an adverb.
20:54:42 <oklopol> probably!
20:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, sorry, I just can't make sense of that.
20:54:50 <oklopol> oerjan: okay good point.
20:54:52 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: no im just waiting for the interesting bit
20:55:13 <Phantom_Hoover> what oko is talking what more do you want
20:55:25 <Taneb> Goodnight
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20:55:45 <oklopol> yeah elliott___ i'm being totally interesting here, i even had some caps up there.
20:56:03 <mroman> Oh yeah.
20:56:13 <mroman> He used Captain Capslock.
20:57:08 <oklopol> mroman: the transition from touch to pain feels pretty smooth to me. then again perhaps we're not talking about the kind of pain you feel when you press your arm with your finger.
20:58:50 <mroman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nociceptor
20:59:09 * Sgeo_ wonders if A.I. Wars is a good game
20:59:52 <mroman> I think just touching the wall with your finger does not trigger any nociceptors
21:00:12 <mroman> if you stick a needl through your thumb I guess that'll trigger nociceptors.
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21:00:52 <oerjan> nociraptors
21:01:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, depends, what's it a name for?
21:02:04 <oklopol> okay i suppose needles feel rather different than touching.
21:02:06 <Sgeo_> http://www.tacticalneuronics.com/content/aiw3dnew.asp
21:02:33 <mroman> Just touching the walls should trigger mechanoreceptors
21:03:16 <mroman> but it's totally not my area of expertise
21:03:26 <mroman> I'm not sure I even have an area of expertise :)
21:04:34 <elliott___> nobody really knows what a nociceptor is anyway , its god ?
21:04:39 <oklopol> i have some areas of being a dick with strong stupid opinions.
21:04:48 <oklopol> it's even better
21:04:55 <oklopol> way less work
21:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, it's what detects noces, duh
21:06:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (a noce is the thing you use to cmell)
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21:07:12 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
21:07:15 <oklopol> i read that as noticeptors, made more sense :/
21:07:18 <elliott___> salt
21:07:26 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
21:07:37 <oklopol> don't you mean
21:07:44 <oklopol> cwats
21:07:48 <oerjan> nope
21:07:57 <oklopol> are you sure
21:08:04 <oerjan> maybe.
21:08:16 <mroman> are you cure?
21:08:24 <oklopol> his nociceptors would respond stronger to a cwat.
21:08:31 <oklopol> and thus you would inflict more pain
21:08:39 <oerjan> oh noce
21:08:52 <oerjan> that would be crül
21:08:55 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:56 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:57 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:57 <elliott___> `quote
21:08:57 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:06 <HackEgo> 155) <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring the input <-- some people live their entire lives this way, i reckon
21:09:06 <HackEgo> 558) <itidus20> indirect addressing is a facile and inebrious kind of instruction which should be whomped away by languages
21:09:16 <HackEgo> 376) <ais523> I think I managed something like a one-expression increment that was only a few hundred characters long
21:09:19 <HackEgo> 130) <fungot> CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head.
21:09:20 <HackEgo> 665) <ais523> also, why isn't monqy from Hexham? his name sounds like he should be
21:09:35 <mroman> `quote
21:09:38 <HackEgo> 284) <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: mutation is often considerably harder for both humans and compilers can analyze it much more difficult' part that induces bloody vomit... huh....intriguing
21:09:43 <elliott___> mroman: you destroyed it
21:09:46 <elliott___> now it must be repeated
21:09:47 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:48 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:48 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:48 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:49 <elliott___> `quote
21:09:49 * oerjan cwats mroman -----###
21:10:00 <HackEgo> 371) <oklopol> yes i use the services of a psychic, but i'm considering getting a live one since stuff like "hello $name, your first name $first_name has |$first_name| letters, so by using numerology we can tell ..." is getting kind of boring
21:10:14 <HackEgo> 416) <Gregor> oklopol: Why do you have so much experience with hoop-and-stick? :P <oklopol> Gregor: my fetish: learning pointless skills
21:10:14 <HackEgo> 298) <cpressey> BYE dbc WE'LL BE SURE TO ACCIDENTALLY MENTION YOUR NICK OFTEN
21:10:14 <HackEgo> 74) <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
21:10:16 <HackEgo> 748) <fizzie> Two gigabytes is not really much to download. <Gregor> THAT'S LIKE THREE EPISODES OF MY LITTLE PONY
21:10:45 <elliott___> imo 371 or 74 or 748
21:10:52 <elliott___> probably 748 or 74
21:11:17 <Phantom_Hoover> 74, if only because nobody in their right mind considers 3rd cousins to be incest.
21:11:33 <elliott___> `delquote 74
21:11:37 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <Warrigal> It's not incest if you're third cousins!
21:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I've seen one of my second cousins, once, and I haven't talked to any.
21:12:00 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:00 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:01 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:01 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:02 <elliott___> `quote
21:12:05 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: have you fucked any
21:12:09 <HackEgo> 243) <quintopia> who is guido van rossum <olsner> you could say he's a man who grew a beard but acquired none of the associated good properties
21:12:12 <HackEgo> 838) <elliott> I couldn't survive an apocalypse. I don't even have any bitcoins.
21:12:14 <elliott___> talking is not a requirement
21:12:17 <HackEgo> 835) <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
21:12:20 <HackEgo> 484) <Phantom_Hoover> Oh look, Dax has brought TWO glowy science sticks. <Phantom_Hoover> SHIT JUST GOT REAL
21:12:21 <HackEgo> 236) <fizzie> Deewiant: Did you take the course at some point and/or were you taking it now and/or did you actually already graduate and/or are you still in Otaniemi anyway?
21:12:27 <fizzie> Seeing isn't, either; blindfolds etc.
21:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, no
21:12:29 <oklopol> yeah let's all calculate our cousin number
21:12:48 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: well what are you waiting for
21:12:56 <mroman> I'd prefer the gun.
21:13:02 <oerjan> 236
21:13:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ISTR that the one I saw was younger than me?
21:13:18 <kallisti> elliott___: I am make sandbox
21:13:23 <kallisti> also am made esolang
21:13:26 <oklopol> really most of these quotes are pretty stupid
21:13:27 * kallisti good
21:13:37 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:38 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:38 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:38 <tswett> oklopol: yeah, let's!
21:13:39 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:39 <elliott___> `quote
21:13:41 <oklopol> or i just don't get them.
21:13:41 <mroman> He can torture you better with a knife than with a gun I suppose.
21:13:45 <tswett> My great-grandparents were...
21:13:48 <HackEgo> 794) <Taneb> l is it real <Taneb> I am [...] <Taneb> because of how on earth would I do that [...] <Taneb> I dont even no idea what I'm saying
21:13:50 <tswett> Uh... I don't remember.
21:13:52 <HackEgo> 302) <oklopol> i'm really sleep
21:14:02 <HackEgo> 46) <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
21:14:03 <HackEgo> 621) <shachaf> Real Tar is GNU tar. <shachaf> You just ignore whichever features don't make you feel superior enough.
21:14:03 <HackEgo> 737) <Vorpal> <ais523> northern ireland is quite a way to drag someone from scotland <-- not really. I just checked in google earth <ais523> Vorpal: but dragging people across water's a bit tricky
21:14:04 <oklopol> so quoteworthy.
21:14:08 <oklopol> 302 i mean.
21:14:14 <oklopol> i have always wondered about that
21:14:19 <elliott___> `delquote 302
21:14:22 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <oklopol> i'm really sleep
21:14:23 <elliott___> imo 46 is bad
21:14:24 <tswett> Let's see, who was my dad's dad's dad?
21:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Well according to WP the most recent human common ancestor lived 5000 to 2000 years ago.
21:14:27 <elliott___> `delquote 46
21:14:31 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
21:14:38 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: er, that recently?
21:14:39 <tswett> I would have referred to him as Grandpa ____ Swett, for some value of ____.
21:14:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (Wow, 2000 years is stupidly recent.)
21:14:46 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: maybe it is jesus
21:14:48 <elliott___> we are all descended from jesus
21:14:52 <tswett> But I only remember one Grandpa Swett.
21:15:05 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: so hang on is this like one dude we all have genes of
21:15:16 <elliott___> or whatever
21:15:18 <oklopol> 236 is such a fizzism :'D
21:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> da Vinci code 2, twist: everyone is the descendant of jesus
21:15:27 <mroman> Jesus had sex?
21:15:35 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i am just checking i got this right
21:15:47 <Sgeo_> He is his father, or something, isn't he?
21:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, yes, although in theory you could inherit no actual genes from them.
21:16:02 <elliott___> wasn't there a film where jesus got it on
21:16:07 <elliott___> not porn i mean
21:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> was it on camera or was it the da vinci code
21:16:25 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i'm having a hard time believing it was 2000 years ago???
21:16:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So am I?
21:16:46 <oerjan> mroman: there is nothing in the bible _denying_ it, is there?
21:16:48 <elliott___> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)
21:16:48 <tswett> Why wouldn't it be 2000 years ago?
21:16:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm pretty sure, like, America was populated by then.
21:16:54 <elliott___> found by googling "movie jesus temptation sex"
21:17:15 <mroman> oerjan: I have no idea of what is in the bible
21:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___ takes the catholic schoolgirl fetish to new heights
21:17:28 <mroman> except what people tell what's supposed to be in the bible.
21:17:40 <elliott___> mroman: there's this god dude
21:17:48 <mroman> elliott___: Don't know him.
21:18:33 <mroman> I'm only christian on a piece of paper.
21:18:55 <Phantom_Hoover> OK yeah according to WP the Americas have been populated for 17+ millennia so???
21:19:06 <oerjan> wasn't that sort of a point in the davinci code, anyway? (i've never read it, although i can see the one i got as a gift from here.)
21:19:08 <nortti> mroman: is the old testament there is so much shit that you shouldn't follow. for example you should kill babies of enemies by crushing their skulls against a rock and you are allowed so sell your daughter as a slave
21:19:10 <mroman> I actually could destroy that paper to save money.
21:19:15 <oklopol> 2000 doesn't seem that recent to me, isn't it just like how any two ppl are butt sex connected by 8 links.
21:19:27 <mroman> nortti: Does the bible say I shouldn't follow the old testament?
21:19:33 <nortti> no
21:19:40 <elliott___> well it sort of does actually
21:19:57 <mroman> So what's the old testament for?
21:19:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, well the thing is that for to populations to share a common ancestor you need to have at least some interbreeding.
21:20:06 <oerjan> it says both that you should and that you shouldn't, iiuc
21:20:12 <Sgeo_> Something about not one jot or tittle will pass away from the old law... but Jesus fulfilled the old law
21:20:13 <elliott___> "pro tip" : the old testament was written before the new one
21:20:18 <elliott___> that's why it's called old !
21:20:20 <nortti> well yes and no. jesus says he is not going to destroy old laws but rather fulfill them
21:20:51 <elliott___> Sgeo_: seems to me like the former has an obvious interpretation of not weakening the law's strengths even though you still gotta follow them
21:20:54 <mroman> elliott___: That only makes me believe more in to the old testament
21:20:59 <mroman> because it's closer to the truth .
21:21:03 <elliott___> what
21:21:08 <mroman> (by being older than the new one)
21:21:11 <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
21:21:14 <elliott___> because oldness is truth
21:21:26 <mroman> Well.
21:21:27 <elliott___> `addquote <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
21:21:30 <HackEgo> 848) <itidus21> elliott___: we have been calling a book new for 2000 years and it took einstein to figure out relativity
21:21:31 <itidus21> unquotab----- shit
21:21:34 <Sgeo_> On the other hand, he seems to ignore stuff about washing hands, because apparently nothing that goes into the body is ... I forget exactly what was said
21:21:34 <mroman> If two guys are telling you a story
21:21:38 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but probably not much
21:21:42 <itidus21> :D
21:21:43 <mroman> one heard the story in 1900
21:21:47 <mroman> an the other one in 1921
21:21:55 <mroman> which one would you believe more?
21:22:01 <elliott___> mroman: you realise that in the chronology old testament was written before jesus was born right
21:22:14 <elliott___> obviously if god sends down a new dude to teach people about shit the book about him isn't going to be written BEFORE he is born
21:22:19 <oklopol> i just kinda this is the kind of thing where you should expect to have less than you'd expect.
21:22:25 <mroman> I never read any testament so... no.
21:22:31 <oklopol> (but not any less than that)
21:22:56 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, so why are you arguing about their messages?
21:22:58 <elliott___> anyway saying that older information is more accurate is ridiculous, have you heard of science
21:23:00 <mroman> All I know about the bible is that I was supposed to read it as a child but never did.
21:23:53 <Sgeo_> If I was forced into C.S. Lewis's supposed Trilemma, and was looking at the Book of John, I'd probably go with liar or crazy
21:23:57 <nortti> I read the whole bible. then I no longer believed in god
21:24:04 <Sgeo_> Jesus in that book makes me think of a cult leader
21:24:25 <mroman> elliott___: Depends...
21:24:33 <oklopol> elliott___: the book was written so people could take a look in advance so they'd keep up.
21:24:36 <mroman> If two people tell me a story I beleive the oldest source
21:24:43 <mroman> because that's the one most likely not being changed over time.
21:24:50 <Sgeo_> mroman, but there are two different stories here
21:24:55 <elliott___> so when a police report gets amended due to new information
21:24:58 <elliott___> you don't believe the new shit
21:25:07 <elliott___> (s/police report/news story/ etc.)
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21:25:14 <Sgeo_> (Well, more, the Gospel accounts kind of paint different stories, but that's irrelevant here)
21:25:14 <elliott___> also why do you think the new testament is a retelling of the old one
21:25:20 <elliott___> since this is the only circumstance in which this argument makes any sense
21:25:21 <mroman> elliott___: That's something totally different.
21:25:24 <Sgeo_> The later story happened later than the earlier story
21:25:31 <Sgeo_> (If we imagine that they happened)
21:25:39 <oklopol> it's a story?
21:25:45 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, wait are you saying you think the old testament is even vaguely reliable
21:26:03 <mroman> No :(
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21:26:19 <mroman> I'm just telling that, if I have two versions of a imaginary story
21:26:27 <mroman> where I can't prove anything I'd believe the older version
21:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> (you don't)
21:26:40 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:43 <Vorpal> mroman, why?
21:26:45 <elliott___> they're completely separate texts
21:26:47 <Sgeo_> You don't have two versions of an imaginary stories, you have two different imaginary stories.
21:26:54 <mroman> as it is probably the version not forged/biased/adulterated over time
21:26:57 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:58 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:58 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:26:59 <elliott___> why do you think the new testament is a revision of the old testament this is so ignorant holy cow
21:27:06 <Vorpal> elliott___, surely that is Hinduism? ;P
21:27:06 <mroman> elliott___: I DON'T
21:27:12 <mroman> I never said that.
21:27:14 <elliott___> apparently i have to state the obvious error 10 times to get a reply
21:27:19 <elliott___> mroman: <mroman> I'm just telling that, if I have two versions of a imaginary story
21:27:24 <elliott___> then what are the two testaments a version of
21:27:33 <mroman> What the f*
21:27:55 <oklopol> this conversation doesn't work.
21:28:24 <elliott___> it's not a conversation, it's me yelling at people
21:28:25 <oklopol> let's change the topic.
21:28:33 <oklopol> WELL FUCK YOU THEN ASS MONSTER
21:28:37 <mroman> elliott___: I *thought* they were two different versions
21:28:42 <elliott___> oklopol: no i was enjoying this channel for the first time in months
21:28:44 <mroman> until somebody mentioned that they are not.
21:28:45 <elliott___> : (
21:28:46 <Sgeo_> Well, to be fair, the different stories describe the same character in different ways
21:28:47 <elliott___> mroman: ok
21:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> No it's not, it's you yelling at a person.
21:28:51 <elliott___> (they aren't)
21:28:53 <oklopol> elliott___: just trying to join the fun
21:28:57 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: THAT CAN CHANGE VERY FUCKING RAPIDLY
21:29:02 <mroman> and I understood that.
21:29:21 <oklopol> i didn't really feel the hostility
21:29:23 <mroman> when suddenly people started assuming stuff I never said.
21:29:24 <elliott___> Vorpal: ha ha ha ha (vorpal told me to react to the joke)
21:29:30 <elliott___> oklopol: sorry :/ i'll try harder
21:29:32 <oklopol> perhaps because mroman is so annoyingly civil
21:29:38 <Vorpal> elliott___, :P
21:29:41 <oklopol> so elliott___ just looks silly
21:29:42 <elliott___> i only managed to get to mildly irritated i'm afraid
21:29:50 <oklopol> hmph
21:29:50 <elliott___> it is hard
21:29:50 <Sgeo_> So, which of two opposite characterizations would you believe from the distinct stories that supposedly occured at different times?
21:29:53 <oklopol> what have they done to you
21:30:03 <Sgeo_> Note that one of the characterizations is that the character's character doesn't change.
21:30:11 <elliott___> (however mroman's policy of believing older stories is still illogical and "wack" as they say)
21:30:18 <mroman> My whole statement was based on the fact, that the two stories were the same but different versions
21:30:35 <oklopol> (ILLOGI-FUCKING-CAL)
21:30:37 <mroman> and if that assumption doesn't hold, my statement is automatically irrelevant.
21:30:43 <elliott___> oklopol: no im down to a gentle simmer
21:31:09 <oklopol> okay, that's cool i guess
21:31:15 <mroman> elliott___: It's like
21:31:20 <mroman> You tell a story to your kids
21:31:23 <mroman> and your kids to their kids
21:31:23 <oklopol> so in 7.5 hours i need to do some laundry
21:31:25 <elliott___> i don't have kids, checkmate
21:31:27 <mroman> and their kids to their kids
21:31:32 <mroman> no
21:31:33 <elliott___> mroman: that's origin/parentage-wise
21:31:38 <elliott___> mroman: nothing to do with chronology
21:31:45 <elliott___> i could tell someone else the story after my kids tell it, for instance
21:31:52 <mroman> I would believe the original story more than versions passed on over time.
21:32:06 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: im going to play crawl and you have to watch me
21:32:16 <Sgeo_> So, I guess mroman could argue that the NT probably has not changed as mich as the OT
21:32:18 <Vorpal> <elliott___> (however mroman's policy of believing older stories is still illogical and "wack" as they say) <-- yeah, it is the opposite of an LRU cache
21:32:19 <oklopol> (is one of you actually trying to go somewhere with this?)
21:32:32 <Sgeo_> Since the NT is closer to its origin than the OT is to its
21:32:45 <elliott___> oklopol: no
21:32:51 <elliott___> i am just enjoying life
21:32:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, but i want to play new vegas :(
21:32:53 <oklopol> ooh crawl it's that game with "hard" bosses no?
21:33:43 <oklopol> elliott___: okay that's cool
21:33:48 <oklopol> so how's life?
21:34:07 <oklopol> perhaps i should harrass you in priv, haven't done that in a while
21:34:11 <oklopol> i'll think about this
21:34:25 <elliott___> oklopol: who told you crawl has "hard" bosses
21:34:28 <elliott___> crawl is fairly challenging
21:34:46 <elliott___> i am no good at it; the best players can win at something like a 40% rate
21:34:48 <oklopol> well i think you, so now i think no one.
21:35:00 <oklopol> oh
21:35:02 <oklopol> so you just suck
21:35:05 <elliott___> it has a difficult earlygame and a difficult extended endgame
21:35:10 <elliott___> oklopol: well yes
21:35:15 <elliott___> but 40% win rates are very rare
21:35:17 <elliott___> anyway Phantom_Hoover tough
21:35:18 <elliott___> open putty
21:35:19 <oklopol> i would totally like totally own at it
21:35:22 <elliott___> mmm
21:35:24 <elliott___> oklopol: you should play
21:35:27 <elliott___> i'll watch
21:35:35 <oklopol> i think i could do like 50%
21:35:41 <elliott___> go for it
21:35:42 <mroman> And what'd be the correct term for "older" origin-wise?
21:35:46 <oklopol> i totally will
21:36:00 <oklopol> maybe even 60% actually
21:36:06 <mroman> "most original"?
21:36:25 <oklopol> grandparentlier
21:36:34 <elliott___> oklopol: ok
21:36:38 <elliott___> oklopol: do you want me to tell you how to play on the server
21:36:40 <elliott___> (offline doesn't count)
21:36:56 <Vorpal> <elliott___> i am no good at it; the best players can win at something like a 40% rate <-- so much harder than nethack? Or are the players less skilled?
21:37:03 <oklopol> elliott___: umm i'm going to sleep pretty suun :D
21:37:05 <oklopol> soon
21:37:12 <oklopol> suun o_O
21:37:17 <elliott___> oklopol: that's ok you'll die quickly enough
21:37:26 <Phantom_Hoover> cuun
21:37:36 <oklopol> sorry i already did one crazy thing today
21:37:37 <elliott___> Vorpal: nethack is really easy once you get good at it, the early-game is the only risk whatsoever
21:37:43 <Vorpal> indeed
21:37:59 <elliott___> the longest streak of crawl wins is 23 games
21:38:05 <elliott___> (and no, the top players are very skilled)
21:38:07 <mroman> I thought of "oldest version" as "the first version of that story ever told"
21:38:38 <elliott___> Vorpal: basically crawl has a very difficult early game (nethack's early game is very easy in comparison)
21:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, what kind of difficulty though?
21:38:47 <oklopol> mroman: so how's the weather up there in your land?
21:38:54 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: it's hard to describe, why don't you try it!!!
21:38:54 <Vorpal> elliott___, ouch
21:38:58 <elliott___> oklopol: two crazy things would set a record!
21:39:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, when you lose is it generally your fault to some extent?
21:39:13 <oklopol> elliott___: i already set a record today
21:39:21 <mroman> oklopol: Windy
21:39:21 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: basically yes, in that if you watch the game you will see a way to get out of the situation
21:39:25 <mroman> but warm.
21:39:38 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: some earlygame deaths come close to being "unavoidable" by reasonable standards I'd say
21:39:44 <elliott___> but mostly it is stupidity
21:39:48 <elliott___> oklopol: which one
21:40:12 <elliott___> Vorpal: also you don't really get the thing with nethack where resists are 100% and you have low enough AC (high enough AC in Crawl) that nothing ever does damage
21:40:32 <oklopol> "exactest characterization of the commutator of an affine CA on a full shift"
21:40:32 <Vorpal> ah
21:40:48 <oklopol> although tbh i came up with that after saying i had a record.
21:40:49 <mroman> Not hot, couthie warm.
21:40:55 <oklopol> perhaps guinness wouldn't take it
21:41:09 <oklopol> btw have you seen their new books? wtf, there's not a single record.
21:41:27 <elliott___> now i really want to see oklopol play crawl :'(
21:41:35 <oklopol> "tallest mountain, greatest population, most wins in fucking ass hockey by country"
21:42:19 <elliott___> oklopol: do you happen to have PuTTY already
21:42:27 <oklopol> their 1991 book was probably part of the reason i love meaningless skills so much, it was a life-shaping superbook. it has all kinds of cool stuff like how many km someone has crawled.
21:42:31 <elliott___> you could be playing crawl in like three minutes
21:42:46 <oklopol> some day.
21:42:54 <elliott___> so boring
21:42:57 <oklopol> also i hope you realize that i will suck.
21:43:19 <oklopol> rpgs are too complicated
21:43:41 <elliott___> crawl is not really an rpg
21:43:55 <elliott___> i would say the basic gameplay is simpler than most rpgs
21:44:01 <oklopol> so Phantom_Hoover where exactly are you located?
21:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Edinburgh.
21:45:25 <oklopol> oh right scotland not northern ireland.
21:45:34 <oklopol> i'm sure you confuse the two all the time as well
21:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't have to go to Ireland this summer, thankfully.
21:49:36 <elliott___> ojiewjfoiwjefoi
21:50:39 <oklopol> i was asking because my gf is in northern ireland and i have fetish for watching her do math with my irc contacts.
21:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Where in NI?
21:51:06 <oklopol> belfast
21:51:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (Why am I asking, there are two universities and both are in Belfast.)
21:51:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (There are other things too and most of them are also in Belfast.)
21:51:39 <oklopol> she's not at the university, more of a vacation
21:52:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol why are you going out with someone that crazy
21:53:04 <oklopol> dunno. she's not even a mathematician :(
21:53:27 <elliott___> maybe i will settle for watching Vorpal play crawl
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21:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> does she at least let you have sex in a bath of coke?
21:53:30 <elliott___> you'll do that right Vorpal
21:55:14 <oklopol> haven't asked yet. i have asked her if she'd let me paint her blue though.
21:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ah was this part of acting out your avatar fanfics
21:56:17 <oklopol> i haven't seen that
21:56:52 <oklopol> i guess it's more of a painting people blue fetish.
21:57:40 <oklopol> she wasn't very enthusiastic about the idea :/
21:58:30 <epicmonkey> so she just doesn't like blue very much
21:58:35 <elliott___> you're all shit
22:00:28 -!- kallisti has joined.
22:00:28 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host).
22:00:28 -!- kallisti has joined.
22:00:28 <oklopol> i guess.
22:00:36 <epicmonkey> nobody cares
22:00:46 -!- nortti_ has joined.
22:01:13 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:01:45 <elliott___> epicmonkey: nobody cares about what
22:01:52 <oklopol> elliott___: shit.
22:02:00 <epicmonkey> exactly
22:02:16 <elliott___> how long have you been here epicmonkey
22:02:17 <elliott___> just curious
22:02:20 <oerjan> i sense the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
22:02:24 * oerjan sidles away.
22:02:29 <epicmonkey> one day and a half I guess
22:02:48 <oklopol> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIOrQasR18
22:03:02 <oklopol> i just find that so inspiring
22:03:03 <elliott___> 1.5! that's a lot of days
22:03:45 <oklopol> elliott___: are you playing the i've been here longer card? because hitler did.
22:03:59 <epicmonkey> one, two... oh, wai~~
22:04:35 <elliott___> epicmonkey: how's your life?
22:04:47 -!- oerjan has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING | last topic change: today | monkeys not welcome unless they bring bananas | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:05:01 <epicmonkey> life sucks, everyone knows this, dude.
22:05:03 <oklopol> god won?
22:05:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | monkeys not welcome unless they bring bananas | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:05:27 <elliott___> epicmonkey: sorry to hear that. my life is ok sometimes!
22:06:06 <oklopol> elliott___: so i recall at some point you thought life was like crap and shit but then later you were all like life is kind of okay i guess that's a good progression.
22:06:33 <elliott___> oklopol: it is both
22:06:35 <elliott___> and it is neither
22:06:40 <elliott___> do you feel?
22:06:55 <oklopol> i feel.
22:06:57 <oerjan> ye olde sine curve. or was that tan.
22:07:05 <elliott___> epicmonkey: anything interesting happen today?
22:07:19 <oklopol> we started a promising article today!
22:07:36 <elliott___> oklopol: i wasn't talking to you, asshole
22:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The Tomlinson trial came out with a verdict of not guilty?
22:07:56 <epicmonkey> do you know anything about genetic programming? I think I get stuck
22:07:58 <Phantom_Hoover> My dad made a lot of noise when that came up on the radio.
22:08:15 <elliott___> epicmonkey: a little bit, but not really. is that what you were doing today?
22:08:25 <oklopol> elliott___: fuck you and your stupid fuck ass brain mammoth banana.
22:08:34 <epicmonkey> kind of
22:08:34 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: how surprising.
22:08:51 <epicmonkey> oklopol: this is my poor hat.
22:09:32 <epicmonkey> probably this one: http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/131184.jpg
22:10:09 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: are you surprised
22:10:11 <elliott___> im making a face : :O
22:10:17 <elliott___> maybe the mouth will detach from the eyes
22:10:19 <elliott___> go do its own thing
22:10:20 <epicmonkey> the problem with GP is I don't get what is fitness function for a continuous problem
22:10:21 <elliott___> : O
22:10:26 <elliott___> : O
22:10:38 <elliott___> O :
22:11:06 <elliott___> help im going backwards
22:11:11 <oklopol> epicmonkey: just use something random and it'll go great.
22:11:23 <itidus21> this is todays idea for a bitmap image format (based on floodfills): http://oi46.tinypic.com/wclnh4.jpg
22:11:50 <elliott___> itidus21: may i use the bottom-left image on my wiki user page
22:12:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 0): (2 0
22:12:02 <itidus21> damn you can type fast
22:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oh for
22:12:12 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: you dont look shocked enough
22:12:14 <Phantom_Hoover> 0): ( 0
22:12:17 <elliott___> itidus21: y or n
22:12:30 <itidus21> oh you said may i.. yeah no problem
22:12:39 <itidus21> its public domain 0
22:12:40 <itidus21> hereby
22:12:42 <itidus21> lol
22:12:47 <itidus21> or whatever
22:13:03 <elliott___> you just have to agree to release it under the terms at http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/
22:13:13 <oklopol> i type even slower than before nowadays because i've broken all my keys :(
22:13:16 <itidus21> yeah, thats the terms intended
22:13:22 <elliott___> thank you sir
22:13:40 <epicmonkey> Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License sounds better
22:13:42 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, is that image meant to be a Voronoi map?
22:13:48 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:14:04 <elliott___> epicmonkey: that's nonfree
22:14:15 <epicmonkey> specially for you: Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License Free
22:14:42 <epicmonkey> does it make it free? :-P
22:15:13 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: it's meant to be a way for storing bitmap images
22:15:33 <elliott___> epicmonkey: noncommercial licenses violate the OSI, FSF and DFSG criteria
22:15:35 <elliott___> so no
22:15:39 <elliott___> (no restrictions on field of use, to be precise)
22:15:49 <itidus21> perhaps coinciding with voronoi
22:15:53 <nortti_> but is can't be used in commercial situations. so itcis nonfree. actually anything more redtrictive than CC0, WTFPL or PD is nonfree
22:16:15 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, oh, so you've invented SVG with none of the advantages of SVG.
22:16:28 <itidus21> hummm....
22:16:41 <elliott___> nortti_: that is an erroneous definition of free
22:16:54 <nortti_> why?
22:16:56 <elliott___> requiring attribution is hardly nonfree
22:17:07 <elliott___> by any definition worth its salt
22:17:18 <nortti_> oh. yeah
22:17:45 <epicmonkey> elliott___: that stinks! what do I get a long name if noncommercial licenses are broken?
22:17:48 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: i'd love to actually see how it performed.. i laid in bed for a while thinking about encoding schemes
22:17:49 <elliott___> anyway the GPL is obviously free, claiming otherwise is agenda-pushing, but that does not necessarily mean it is ideal
22:17:52 <Phantom_Hoover> epicmonkey, the wiki has traditionally been public domain.
22:17:54 <elliott___> epicmonkey: you could make your own license!!!
22:18:02 <epicmonkey> woohoo!
22:18:07 <elliott___> but yes, I specifically promised Graue I would keep PD licensing, so it will be for naught :P
22:18:24 <nortti_> good
22:18:25 <oklopol> copyright is murder
22:18:32 <elliott___> of course now I am nearly as inactive as him. but not quite: I actually updated the software recently!!
22:19:14 <nortti_> oklopol: are you member/supporter of pirate party
22:19:23 <oerjan> elliott___: there's probably a wiki admin curse
22:19:25 <oklopol> no.
22:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, it'd do well for block-filled pictures with sharp, black edges.
22:19:34 <Phantom_Hoover> So is SVG, and it's scalable besides.
22:19:44 <oklopol> nor any other party
22:19:48 <elliott___> oerjan: it is not a curse
22:20:02 <oklopol> i do think i should be able to do whatever i like with my internet though.
22:20:03 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: well the picture actually does a really terrible job showing it off
22:20:03 <oerjan> elliott___: THAT'S what they all say.
22:20:25 <oerjan> but that's part of it, you see
22:21:00 <elliott___> oerjan: i mean, i like the effects
22:21:04 <elliott___> it is relaxing to not care about it
22:21:17 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: well.. like i figure that you can represent some interesting voronoi maps with 1bit with minimal outlining
22:21:35 <itidus21> but i didnt know they were called voronoi maps
22:21:47 <Phantom_Hoover> You're not using Voronoi anything, that was a misunderstanding.
22:21:53 <itidus21> hmmm
22:22:37 <Phantom_Hoover> A Voronoi map is one where you have a set of points on the map and you split the map according to which point is nearest.
22:22:55 <elliott___> <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
22:23:46 -!- copumpkin has joined.
22:23:48 <elliott___> soundnfury's client is apparently called the empty string
22:24:01 <nortti_> elliott___: why you ctcp'd my version
22:24:07 <oerjan> not much sound and fury in that
22:24:07 <elliott___> i ctcp'd the whole channel
22:24:11 <elliott___> for fun
22:24:12 <nortti_> oh
22:24:24 <oerjan> *for devious secret purposes
22:24:28 <elliott___> still as much irssi as ever
22:24:34 <nortti_> did you find out anything intersting?
22:24:38 <elliott___> SimonRC: upgrade yr irssi
22:24:41 <elliott___> ineiros: you too
22:24:56 <elliott___> nortti_: not really
22:25:11 <oklopol> i use irssi nowadays but i made it version pong mirc.
22:25:15 <elliott___> Gregor: your version replies are screwed
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION bip-0.8.8
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 2.6.35.4 [x86_64/2.33GHz/SMP]
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Linux 3.1-0.slh.5-aptosid-amd64 [x86_64/800.50MHz/SMP]
22:25:19 <elliott___> -Gregor- VERSION Microsoft IRC# 2013 64-bit (Windows 9 Developer Pre-Alpha Release, x64, 1.5GB RAM)
22:25:22 <elliott___> kind of ruins the IRC# thing "sorry"
22:25:28 <elliott___> i like how you upgraded it to windows 9
22:25:37 <nortti_> :P
22:25:45 <elliott___> oklopol: there is no way you would have the patience to do the colouring/bolding/underlining in that version reply
22:25:53 <elliott___> "busted!!!!!!!!!!"
22:26:36 <oklopol> actually i probably would, sounds like fun. but i don't have the patience to install irssi.
22:26:54 <oklopol> since i didn't like it when i last tried it
22:27:40 <elliott___> i don't like irssi
22:27:50 <elliott___> i am happy with xchat
22:27:57 -!- MSleep has joined.
22:28:17 <oklopol> i'm almost happy with mirc + nnscript. there are some annoying details.
22:28:52 <oklopol> xchat, irssi and kvirc had more
22:29:32 <elliott___> use ircII and be cool
22:29:36 <elliott___> ("cool")
22:29:50 <epicmonkey> cuul
22:30:14 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host).
22:30:14 -!- tswett has joined.
22:30:16 <nortti_> elliott___: can you help me with ircII? I haven't bothered to compile irssi with 486
22:30:32 <nortti_> (running netbsd)
22:30:59 <elliott___> what help do you need, i have barely even used ircii
22:31:00 <oklopol> yeah elliott___ given that you are such a fan of ircII could you give us a lecture
22:31:03 <elliott___> i think i tried it for like two minutes
22:31:33 <nortti_> elliott___: putting multiple channels in different windows like with irssi
22:31:47 <elliott___> i think it is possible?
22:31:49 <elliott___> I don't know how .
22:31:54 <nortti_> ok
22:32:08 <Phantom_Hoover> cuil
22:32:13 <oklopol> cillu
22:32:14 <elliott___> cf http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Ircii.png
22:32:35 <elliott___> (what a dumb screenshot)
22:32:38 <Phantom_Hoover> cilia
22:32:45 <oklopol> lcii
22:32:55 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
22:33:17 -!- oklopol has changed nick to sleepopol.
22:33:19 <sleepopol> nigt
22:33:23 <oerjan> you could? multiple channels was like the most convenient new feature i noticed when i changed from ircII to irssi, way back...
22:33:25 <sleepopol> night
22:33:37 <elliott___> oerjan: well it could always be a "new" feature.
22:33:44 <oerjan> (i cannot honestly recall if it happened before or after i came here)
22:33:55 <elliott___> people used ircii in 2006?
22:34:14 <itidus21> here is a more practical example of the image format being used (theres 4 white pixels in the resulting picture due to how i did it) http://oi45.tinypic.com/2gwhksl.jpg
22:34:32 <oerjan> i cannot recall, i said. but i didn't use irc much before 2006
22:34:54 <sleepopol> then what the hell did you do
22:34:59 <oerjan> i recall being on #initgame way back in the '90s
22:35:07 <elliott___> what's initgame
22:35:17 <oerjan> it was a game played on irc
22:35:26 <sleepopol> it's this channel with just me in it
22:35:34 <sleepopol> oh right sleep time
22:35:35 <oerjan> presumably EFNET, i don't think things had really split up by then
22:35:45 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:37:05 <elliott___> oerjan: how did you play
22:37:27 <oerjan> someone would change their nick to something like WW_LAXF or whatever the exact format was, and everyone would ask yes-no questions to that person until someone guessed it was Willy Wonka or whatever
22:37:50 <oerjan> the part after _ was a kind of code, Live American something Fictional
22:38:00 * oerjan has forgotten one of them
22:38:16 <oerjan> hm or was it Alive
22:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Xplicit?
22:38:57 <oerjan> Alive/Dead American/Non-Americn Real/Fictional and i've forgotten one
22:39:35 <oerjan> perhaps there was a Human/Non-human in there
22:39:56 <oerjan> *+a
22:39:58 <elliott___> american/non-american, heh
22:40:15 <oerjan> i vaguely think British was also sometimes used
22:40:21 <oerjan> but not really consistently
22:40:35 <elliott___> how did you decide alive/dead for fictional chars
22:40:46 * oerjan recalls confusing everyone with Christopher Milne
22:41:05 <oerjan> i had to put X for alive/dead, i think
22:41:23 <oerjan> i cannot recall if i put X for fictional
22:41:55 <oerjan> (X for unknown or not appropriate, naturally)
22:42:04 <elliott___> was efnet scary back in the day
22:42:21 <oerjan> i dunno, i didn't visit many other channels. i guess not.
22:42:24 -!- dessos has joined.
22:43:04 <oerjan> oh and of course the winner got to change nick next.
22:43:16 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:45:12 <oerjan> <sleepopol> then what the hell did you do <-- i spent a lot of time on Usenet
22:46:00 <elliott___> i read usenet troll threads occasionally
22:46:10 <oerjan> <elliott___> how did you decide alive/dead for fictional chars <-- presumably by whether they'd died in the story, i think
22:46:10 <elliott___> they are the most baffling thing on the internet i know of
22:46:24 <nortti_> why?
22:47:02 <itidus21> phanton: well, i've decided that 2 bit colour for the bitmap is best, enabling me to exploit the four-color theorum, still leaving run lengths of 8192
22:47:02 <elliott___> because
22:48:21 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:48:23 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:48:29 <elliott___> oerjan: entertain me
22:48:48 <oerjan> no one can entertain you, elliott. you are beyond humanity now.
22:49:40 <oerjan> btw i finally registered on reddit
22:49:41 <elliott___> ok
22:49:51 <oerjan> oerjan was still available :P
22:49:53 <elliott___> i noticed your post has a score of 0
22:50:03 <oerjan> the first one, yes
22:50:10 <elliott___> oerjan: please do not lie about the reflection package in a way that wil lcause people to avoid it
22:50:13 <itidus21> 2^5 = run lengths of 32, 2 bits of colour, 1 bit to indicate a flood-fill point at the end of the run. maybe that's best.
22:50:20 <oerjan> elliott___: that wasn't a lie.
22:50:37 <elliott___> oerjan: well, it is untrue and I specifically remember mentioning how it was being done in here at th etime
22:50:50 <oerjan> wat
22:51:01 <elliott___> there is a portable non-unsafeCoerce implementation that will work on _any_ Haskell compiler with the extensions required for the interface and the FFI.
22:51:15 <elliott___> it is used for all implementations for which the unportable implementation has not been specifically tested
22:51:18 <elliott___> (i.e., anything but GHC and Hugs.)
22:51:30 <elliott___> therefore the reflection package is as portable as its interface allows + GHC, Hugs or the FFI.
22:52:25 <oerjan> ok i guess i should have mentioned that the efficient implementation is optional. should i edit?
22:53:01 <elliott___> it is probably no big deal, but I'd point out that the implementation is only used on implementations for which it has been tested, and there is a safe fallback. apologies for accusing you of lying
22:56:58 <oerjan> is it best to edit or to respond to yourself, btw?
22:57:16 <oerjan> given that it's been a day or so.
22:58:38 <elliott___> no problem with editing, I don't think; just add it at the bottom with an edit note if you want... replying to yourself won't notify anybody, anyway
22:58:46 <oerjan> ok
23:03:02 * oerjan thought better of including "(put away the gun, ehird)" in the edit
23:05:00 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:06:26 -!- Deewiant has joined.
23:07:24 <kallisti> `run ghc -e '2 + 2'
23:07:27 <HackEgo> ghc: can't find a package database at /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:07:34 <kallisti> Gregor: why does this happen
23:07:38 <kallisti> elliott___: why does this happen
23:07:50 <kallisti> is it because you're a weird imaginry user?
23:08:03 <elliott___> what
23:08:09 <oerjan> `ls /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/
23:08:12 <HackEgo> Cabal-1.8.0.2 \ array-0.3.0.0 \ base-3.0.3.2 \ base-4.2.0.0 \ bin \ bin-package-db-0.0.0.0 \ bytestring-0.9.1.5 \ containers-0.3.0.0 \ directory-1.0.1.0 \ dph-base-0.4.0 \ dph-par-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-interface-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-par-0.4.0 \ dph-prim-seq-0.4.0 \ dph-seq-0.4.0 \ extensible-exceptions-0.1.1.1 \ extra-gcc-opts \ filepath-1.1.0.3 \ ghc-6.12.1 \ ghc-asm \ ghc-binary-0.5.0.2 \ ghc-prim-0.2.0.0 \ ghc-split
23:08:25 <elliott___> `ls /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:08:28 <HackEgo> ​/usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:08:40 <kallisti> does it need write access perhaps?
23:08:47 <kallisti> and maybe ghc sucks at error reporting?
23:09:03 <oerjan> kallisti: almost certainly not for ordinary use...
23:09:21 <oerjan> but it needs to be set up the first time, i assume
23:09:52 <oerjan> `run ls -l /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:09:54 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 34 Dec 20 2011 /usr/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d -> /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:10:02 <kallisti> oh that's why.
23:10:07 <kallisti> er, wait
23:10:09 <oerjan> `run ls -l /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d
23:10:12 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d: No such file or directory
23:10:15 <oerjan> aha
23:10:16 <kallisti> yep
23:10:24 <kallisti> `run ls /var/lib
23:10:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/lib: No such file or directory
23:10:28 <kallisti> `run ls /
23:10:30 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr \ var
23:10:32 <kallisti> yep
23:10:36 <kallisti> `run ls /var
23:10:39 <HackEgo> irclogs
23:10:43 <kallisti> right. okay.
23:10:47 <kallisti> I KNOW THE FIX NOW
23:10:54 <kallisti> thanks.
23:11:40 <kallisti> (if you're curious the fix is to add -t /var to the umlbox invocation)
23:11:48 <oerjan> ...but you don't have access to apply it.
23:12:20 <kallisti> on this bot. I'm hacking my perl bot to be a hackego clone (and then playing around with persistent environment and possibly daemons)
23:12:27 <kallisti> I have a persistent environment currently
23:12:34 <oerjan> ok
23:15:00 <kallisti> hm, except there's some permission error when I do that.
23:15:20 <kallisti> oh nevermind it's -f /var
23:15:22 <kallisti> not -t /var
23:18:21 <Vorpal> wow, why is it so terribly easy to overload even modern windows by doing massive disk IO. I managed to bring this monster of a machine to it's knees by uncompressing a compressed DVD ISO. Seriously. Core i7 at 3.4 GHz, 4 cores + hyper threading. 16 GB RAM. Very fast disk.
23:18:28 <Vorpal> windows IO scheduler sucks
23:19:27 <nortti_> :P
23:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, Northern Ireland has a separate legal system.
23:20:13 <kallisti> my bot is now some frankenstein lambdabot, hackego, egobot hybrid.
23:20:18 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, from the rest of UK?
23:20:27 <Phantom_Hoover> So that makes 3 in total for the UK.
23:20:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, which are the other two?
23:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Scots and English.
23:20:46 <Vorpal> ah
23:20:54 <Vorpal> poor Welsh, not getting their own
23:21:20 <nortti_> kallisti: have you gotten simh to sanely interact with text streams not coming from tty?
23:21:24 <Phantom_Hoover> The UK is basically split into Scotland, NI and "England and Wales", the latter being a monolithic entity.
23:21:51 <kallisti> nortti_: I have not done any of that.
23:21:59 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: is anything in wales
23:22:26 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, the most significant thing I can honestly remember about Wales is that Doctor Who is based there.
23:22:31 <Vorpal> oh look, now I'm copying 15 GB from an SSD to a HDD. Yet again windows 7 spaces out badly.
23:22:47 <kallisti> nortti_: I have a umlbox sandbox with persistent environment variables (and exported functions), a way to bind commands to shell scripts (instead of doing the automatic "pass all input to $1" thing), and it uses git instead of hg. and that's about the extent of the differences.
23:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I also note that all 3 legal systems have different bases; English law is pure common law, Irish is common and statute and Scots law is a hybrid of common and civil law
23:23:27 <Vorpal> elliott___, well there is that place with the crazy long name I guess?
23:23:37 <Vorpal> and from what I understand, sheep?
23:23:43 <Vorpal> yeah not a lot
23:24:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, statute? What is that
23:24:28 <Vorpal> oh the normal way
23:24:30 <Vorpal> right
23:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> New Zealand is basically the same except s/Doctor Who/New Zealand/.
23:24:48 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: the US is mostly common law, right?
23:24:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, New Zealand is cool though
23:25:00 <kallisti> maybe a hybrid of common/civil.
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23:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, yes (it might be all common law).
23:25:10 <Vorpal> they film so many movies there
23:25:52 <Phantom_Hoover> It's underdeveloped and has lots of mountains.
23:25:53 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: new zealand is cool
23:26:04 <elliott___> i will go there one day when i am rich and there are no problems in life
23:26:06 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, how does civil and statute law differ?
23:26:12 <Vorpal> I thought they were the same thing?
23:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, duh, which is better out of Doctor Who and LotR?
23:26:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is a no-brainer
23:26:30 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: probably lotr?
23:26:34 <Vorpal> LotR easily
23:26:36 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
23:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, here the fact that I am in fact regurgitating Wikipedia becomes painfully apparent.
23:26:58 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i mean i like the films and doctor who as a whole is kind of bad
23:26:59 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott___, also New Zealand has Flight of the Conchords so that makes 1 more thing than Wales?
23:27:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, XD
23:27:11 <elliott___> but there are a few series that might tip the scales
23:27:11 <oerjan> there's a state in the USA which isn't common law, isn't there.
23:27:20 <elliott___> Phantom_Hoover: i don't like flight of the conchords, i forget why. i used to.
23:27:28 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: that's great. if there's anything I love it's room for law to be vaguely interpreted by some random guy(s).
23:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LegalSystemsOfTheWorldMap.png suggests there is.
23:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, well that's an oversimplification.
23:27:56 <kallisti> yes. it is.
23:28:13 <Phantom_Hoover> And indeed wrong; civil law is the one subject to interpretation, common law dispenses with the interpretation altogether.
23:28:49 <kallisti> are you sure?
23:29:01 <kallisti> we do a lot of precedenting around here.
23:29:02 <elliott___> kallisti: clearly it is much better for law to be a platonic game of nomic so more people get away on technicalities and people are convicted for doing nothing wrong
23:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The way I understand it, in common law the interpretation /is/ the law.
23:29:13 <kallisti> elliott___: yeah that's the other extreme.
23:29:28 <elliott___> common law seems to work as fine as law systems do
23:29:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If someone interprets it in a way you don't like you have precedent to fall back on.
23:30:07 <kallisti> hm, okay.
23:30:19 <elliott___> oerjan: hi
23:30:24 <oerjan> ho
23:31:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: louisiana, it was. presumably because it was bought from france.
23:31:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
23:33:04 <oerjan> "However, it is incorrect to equate the Louisiana Civil Code with the Napoleonic Code. Although the Napoleonic Code strongly influenced Louisiana law, it was never in force in Louisiana, as it was enacted in 1804, after the Louisiana Purchase of 1803."
23:44:17 <elliott___> talk
23:44:18 <elliott___> thx
23:44:28 <oerjan> NEVER
23:50:43 <elliott___> this is boring
23:51:18 <Phantom_Hoover> consider pressing alt+tab, or whatever it is in your wm
23:52:40 <oerjan> the channel is often silent at this time of day
23:53:43 <nortti_> @time Phantom_Hoover
23:53:44 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Fri Jul 20 00:53:36
23:54:08 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:54:11 <nortti_> Phantom_Hoover: where do you live?
23:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> ...Edinburgh?
23:54:44 <Vorpal> <oerjan> the channel is often silent at this time of day <-- we have elliott back though, it is never silent then
23:56:28 <oerjan> yes, something's wrong with him.
23:56:38 * oerjan prods elliott___ with a stick
23:57:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, don't scare him away
23:57:47 <Vorpal> @time
23:57:53 <Vorpal> @time Vorpal
23:58:03 <Vorpal> how do you set your timezone with that bot?
23:58:06 <Vorpal> @time Phantom_Hoover
23:58:07 <lambdabot> Local time for Phantom_Hoover is Fri Jul 20 00:57:59
23:58:11 <Vorpal> @time oerjan
23:58:12 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Jul 20 01:58:11 2012
23:58:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, it's using CTCP time.
23:58:53 <Vorpal> ah...
23:59:02 <elliott___> * oerjan prods elliott___ with a stick
23:59:08 <elliott___> i am not really back
23:59:54 <oerjan> so you say
2012-07-20
00:01:25 <elliott___> probably Vorpal disables ctcp for "security reasons"
00:01:28 * oerjan is too tired to be fun
00:01:36 <elliott___> how's your sleep
00:02:02 <Vorpal> elliott___, I don't think so
00:02:03 <oerjan> i slept long today, after not getting much for 2-3 days
00:02:21 <oerjan> it's about time for lunch >:P
00:02:27 <Vorpal> elliott___, I did get CTCP spammed at some point though and just put an ignore on all CTCPs that weren't CTCP ACTION
00:02:51 * elliott___ spam
00:02:51 * elliott___ spam
00:02:52 * elliott___ spam
00:02:52 * elliott___ spam
00:02:52 * elliott___ spam
00:02:52 * elliott___ spam
00:02:54 * elliott___ spam
00:02:56 * elliott___ spam
00:02:58 * elliott___ spam
00:03:00 * elliott___ spam
00:03:02 * elliott___ spam
00:03:04 * elliott___ spam
00:03:06 * elliott___ spam
00:03:08 * elliott___ spam
00:03:10 * elliott___ spam
00:03:12 * elliott___ spam
00:03:14 * elliott___ spam
00:03:14 <copumpkin> I see
00:03:17 <elliott___> hi copumpkin
00:03:19 <oerjan> he is _really_ bored, isn't he
00:03:28 * elliott___ spriggan arcane marksman
00:05:46 <Vorpal> elliott___, isn't that a monster from Skyrim? Spriggan I mean
00:05:55 <Vorpal> btw did you get around to playing Bastion yet?
00:06:22 <elliott___> Vorpal: spriggans are from faery law, so quite possibly
00:06:31 <elliott___> spriggan arcane marksman (SpAM) is a possible character combination in crawl
00:06:31 <Vorpal> ah
00:06:32 <elliott___> and no
00:06:36 <elliott___> *lore
00:06:36 <elliott___> not law
00:06:57 <Vorpal> elliott___, you beat me to it, I was going to make a joke about that being a rather uncommon law
00:09:54 <elliott___> copumpkin: has anything interesting happened in haskell recently
00:10:03 <copumpkin> I haven't really been following
00:10:07 <copumpkin> there's the whole class-prelude debacle
00:10:12 <copumpkin> classy
00:12:16 <elliott___> yes it is quite surreal when the head of one of the largest haskell projects decides to make a passive-aggressive blog post in response to reddit criticism
00:12:36 <Vorpal> lol what
00:12:45 <elliott___> the yesod folks sure do have a weird track record of communication... not that /r/haskell is the most reasoned place either
00:12:51 <elliott___> Vorpal: http://www.yesodweb.com/blog/2012/07/announcing-baseless-assertion
00:14:08 <Vorpal> elliott___, That is on the borderline on not being passive
00:14:24 <oerjan> elliott___: well lambda-case was added, but of course you know that so i assume you don't think that's interesting
00:14:49 <elliott___> oerjan: i think the added syntax is ugly
00:14:55 <oerjan> (and the if | which i tried to comment about but which is still sitting at 0)
00:15:13 <elliott___> frankly I would have preferred for monadic case to be added
00:15:15 <elliott___> so you could do
00:15:17 <elliott___> case <- ask of ...
00:15:18 <elliott___> for lambda-case
00:15:28 <elliott___> (did anyone propose that in a venue that the simons read?)
00:15:31 <oerjan> at least it works, i think if | breaks intuition horribly when nested
00:15:35 <elliott___> (i mean, monadic case obviously, but as an alternative)
00:15:49 <oerjan> elliott___: yes, but that means you cannot use it for continuation passing style
00:15:54 <elliott___> that's what i'd do if i was on the committee at least
00:15:56 <elliott___> oerjan: why not
00:15:59 <elliott___> foo >>= case <- ask of
00:16:01 <elliott___> ...
00:16:06 <elliott___> it is just like "case of"
00:16:07 <elliott___> but generalised
00:16:11 <elliott___> (remember ask is typeclassed to work with functions)
00:16:14 <elliott___> :t ask
00:16:15 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) r. (MonadReader r m) => m r
00:16:19 <oerjan> no, i mean continuation passing when you want it _non-monadic_
00:16:19 <elliott___> :t ask :: r -> r
00:16:20 <lambdabot> forall r. r -> r
00:16:25 <elliott___> I guess <- id works too
00:16:27 <elliott___> oerjan: you don't understand.
00:16:30 <elliott___> oerjan: the monad is the _function_ monad.
00:16:40 <oerjan> huh?
00:16:41 <elliott___> (case <- ask of Nothing -> 123; Just _ -> 456) :: Maybe () -> Integer
00:16:53 <elliott___> case <- m of y === do { tmp <- m; case tmp of y }
00:17:00 <elliott___> now imagine the latter is in the function monad.
00:17:24 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:17:36 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case ask of Nothing -> 123; Just _ -> 456 }
00:17:37 <lambdabot> No instance for (MonadReader r Maybe)
00:17:37 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `ask' at <interactive>:1:20-22
00:17:37 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (MonadReader r Maybe)
00:17:39 <elliott___> gah
00:17:42 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case x of Nothing -> 123; Just _ -> 456 }
00:17:44 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b t. (MonadReader (Maybe t) m, Num (m b)) => m b
00:17:52 <elliott___> erm
00:17:57 <elliott___> oerjan: sorry, it would be
00:18:02 <elliott___> case <- ask of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> 456
00:18:13 <elliott___> *return
00:18:17 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case x of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> return 456 }
00:18:19 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) b t. (MonadReader (Maybe t) m, Num b) => m b
00:18:19 <oerjan> elliott___: oh. well i guess that works.
00:18:25 <elliott___> :t do { x <- ask; case x of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> return 456 } :: Maybe () -> Integer
00:18:26 <lambdabot> Maybe () -> Integer
00:18:34 <elliott___> so case <- ask of Nothing -> return 1234; Just _ -> return 456 }
00:18:38 <elliott___> *{ Nothing
00:18:49 <elliott___> I bet copumpkin likes my solution!!!!!!!!
00:19:09 <oerjan> elliott___: but now what if you want to do continuation passing style _in_ a monad?
00:19:13 <copumpkin> always
00:19:27 <elliott___> oerjan: you just put return $ after every -> and it translates perfectly.
00:19:32 <elliott___> oerjan: in fact that is exactly an fmap
00:19:39 <elliott___> so if we had fancy fmap syntax, then it could be extended too.
00:20:00 <elliott___> say (case <$> ask of Nothing -> 1234; Just _ -> return 456)
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00:20:36 <elliott___> <Vorpal> elliott___, That is on the borderline on not being passive
00:20:42 <kmc> looks like snoyman decided to write a blog post complaining about the haskell community
00:20:44 <elliott___> Vorpal: well i think some people missed that it was directed to them first time around.
00:20:46 <kmc> i have one of those but i didn't post it ;P
00:21:01 <elliott___> kmc: in this case snoyman is in the wrong really
00:21:02 <Vorpal> elliott___, wow...
00:21:07 <elliott___> kmc: did you see classy-prelude
00:21:23 <elliott___> it is like the kind of thing i would expect someone five chapters into lyah to come up with
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00:22:36 <elliott___> maybe not five
00:22:41 <elliott___> kmc: when are typeclasses introduced in lyah
00:22:45 <elliott___> maybe i should ... check it out myself
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00:23:04 <Vorpal> elliott___, what is lyah?
00:23:13 <elliott___> learn you a hgrueghegjorejgforiefjerg
00:23:16 <elliott___> *ham
00:23:18 <elliott___> *hexham
00:23:26 <Vorpal> riiight?
00:23:29 <elliott___> *hastur
00:23:31 <elliott___> *haskel
00:23:35 <Vorpal> ah
00:23:38 <elliott___> *pascal
00:23:39 <elliott___> *java
00:23:45 <elliott___> *esme
00:23:50 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaa
00:24:05 <elliott___> *nonsense query lists
00:24:09 <kmc> learn you a hlaghulagahalguhgaglhghughl
00:24:09 <elliott___> fuck i forgot nsqx's other languages
00:24:13 <elliott___> i fucking miss nsqx
00:24:25 <elliott___> maybe i should make him a sysop
00:25:28 <elliott___> oerjan: do you miss nsqx
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00:25:53 <zzo38>
00:25:58 <elliott___> !
00:26:15 <elliott___> who is zzo38
00:26:16 <elliott___> am i zzo38
00:26:26 <zzo38> I did not write my D&D character backstory yet so I will do that and ask the other player to write backstory for her character too.
00:26:37 <coppro> elliott___: oh
00:26:38 <zzo38> elliott___: I don't think so.
00:26:42 <coppro> elliott___: you under score
00:26:57 <elliott___> coppro: hi
00:26:59 <oerjan> zzo38 is here to teach you not to miss nsqx.
00:27:22 <elliott___> zzo38 is the second-best member of the channel
00:27:29 <elliott___> only nsqx surpasses him imo
00:27:41 <oerjan> OKAY
00:28:54 <elliott___> coppro: hi
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00:31:39 <elliott___> neat, X crashed
00:33:53 <elliott___> oerjan: the language list is unalphabetised
00:34:19 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:35:18 <oerjan> ...i don't see any recent problems
00:36:09 <elliott___> oh, i'm blind
00:36:12 <elliott___> i thought http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Language_list&curid=960&diff=33182&oldid=33170 was out of order.
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00:37:37 <oerjan> so it goes
00:39:26 <elliott___> maybe i should work on 41qys-crawl rather than sitting around on irc
00:41:16 <elliott___> kmc: tell me about a self-delimiting bignum-encoding scheme that is space-efficient and efficient to decode on modern nardware
00:41:17 <elliott___> *hardware
00:43:13 <zzo38> Why does the NES/Famicom lack decimal mode?
00:44:08 <coppro> because decimal is inferior
00:44:18 <coppro> elliott___: define self-delimiting
00:44:39 <elliott___> coppro: good question
00:44:40 <elliott___> scratch that one
00:44:52 <DHeadshot> But it's based on a version of the 6502! That had a BCD mode didn't it?
00:45:07 <elliott___> Deewiant: how is ccbi
00:45:16 <coppro> elliott___: do you mean that each one encodes its own length somehow?
00:45:22 <zzo38> DHeadshot: Yes that does have BCD mode
00:45:36 <elliott___> coppro: pretty much, yes
00:45:48 <elliott___> coppro: for instance a simple such scheme would be: first bit one means there's more, first bit zero means last byte
00:46:04 <coppro> right ok
00:46:39 <coppro> wait, space-efficient
00:46:43 <coppro> there go all my cool ideas :(
00:46:46 <elliott___> go on anyway
00:46:52 <coppro> i had the coolest idea
00:46:58 <coppro> where each bit was 1 if the next bit was in the number
00:47:04 <coppro> or 0 if the number was over
00:47:12 <elliott___> cute
00:47:21 <coppro> you've ruined my dreams
00:47:24 <elliott___> coppro: how do you set the first bit
00:47:29 <elliott___> oh, wait, I see
00:47:34 <elliott___> that's more boring than what I was imagining
00:47:49 <coppro> elliott___: does it need to have efficient operations or something like that?
00:47:53 <coppro> also what are we decoding to?
00:48:12 <coppro> also how are we defining efficient? I'm a computer scientist, by my definition it would be pretty damn hard to fail
00:48:20 <elliott___> decoding to... something. an array of machine integers? by efficient I mean "hardware tricks"
00:48:25 <elliott___> thus the "modern hardware"
00:48:33 <elliott___> i asked kmc because he is a bit-twiddly kind of guy
00:48:44 <coppro> ok
00:48:45 <elliott___> i realised i don't actually need this seconds after asking btw so it remains only for curiosity
00:49:21 <coppro> oh ok
00:49:24 <coppro> I have a funner puzzle
00:49:31 <elliott___> go on
00:49:39 <coppro> int i = something;
00:50:00 <elliott___> ok
00:50:07 <coppro> trying to remember the next bit ;)
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00:51:01 <Vorpal> <elliott___> kmc: tell me about a self-delimiting bignum-encoding scheme that is space-efficient and efficient to decode on modern nardware <-- would it kill you to simply use libgmp?
00:51:12 <Vorpal> oh wait, that API is terrible
00:51:13 <elliott___> Vorpal: serialising bignum structures to file
00:51:16 <elliott___> ~what a great idea~
00:51:18 <Vorpal> ah
00:51:22 <elliott___> *gmp
00:51:34 <Vorpal> oh it it without "lib"?
00:51:35 <Vorpal> okay
00:52:13 <Vorpal> elliott___, with self-delimiting you mean there can't be a count of bytes first or such?
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00:52:30 <elliott____> Vorpal: right.
00:52:34 <elliott____> (obviously, since that wouldn't be bignum!)
00:52:41 <coppro> for (int j = 0; j < i; j=(j+i)&~i) { /* do stuff */ }
00:52:47 <coppro> what am I iterating over?
00:52:57 <Vorpal> elliott____, oh well but you could encode the length of that as a another, different type of bignum :P
00:53:02 <oerjan> well the count of bytes just needs to itself have variable length
00:53:22 <Vorpal> elliott____, I would suggest using something like the most significant bit of each 128 bit group or such to indicate if it was the last one
00:53:24 <Vorpal> what about that?
00:53:29 <Vorpal> or 64-bit group
00:53:32 <Vorpal> probably better
00:53:38 <Vorpal> (on modern hardware)
00:53:50 <elliott____> that could work, sure
00:53:57 <elliott____> has an important inefficiency
00:54:01 <Vorpal> oh?
00:54:04 <elliott____> if the number is 64 bits it takes 128 bits to encode it
00:54:08 <elliott____> but 64 bits is a reasonable range for a number
00:54:11 <Vorpal> true
00:54:14 <elliott____> i.e. this penalises power-of-two bits
00:54:42 <Vorpal> elliott____, well, you are not going to get more than 64 bits handled efficiently on a 64-bit machine
00:54:44 <oerjan> my suggestion is: first byte 0-127 means that the actual 0-127 payload bytes follow
00:55:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, and then what?
00:55:11 <Vorpal> oerjan, you can repeat such blocks?
00:55:14 <Vorpal> that seems reasonable
00:55:58 <Vorpal> oerjan, anyway why 0-127 rather than 0-255?
00:56:16 <elliott____> Vorpal: perhaps for a sign bit
00:56:24 <Vorpal> yes but why not do that unsigned...
00:56:33 <Vorpal> hm and you don't waste space by an extra null marker unless you have exactly 127 (or 255) bytes in the block
00:56:37 <oerjan> first byte 128-255 means that the next 0-127 bytes are a length describing block in the same way (hm 0-1 is useless here, needs some tweaking)
00:56:44 <Vorpal> yeah that sounds reasonable
00:56:50 <Vorpal> well, I need to sleep
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00:57:54 <oerjan> basically, the first length describing block is 1 byte: if a length describing block has most significant bit 0, it's the length of the payload, otherwise its remaining bits are the length of the _next_ length describing block
00:58:16 <elliott____> oerjan: the numbers are not quite likely to get that big :P
00:58:46 <oerjan> elliott____: i was assuming since you said you couldn't simply have an initial length, that you wanted this to be in principle unbounded
00:58:56 <elliott____> i do
00:59:50 <oerjan> so for a number fitting in realistic memory, there won't be more than 2 length describing blocks
01:00:30 <oerjan> you are free to adjust the chunking and cutoffs to make it more efficient, but that's details
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01:14:27 <soundnfury> elliott____: umm what
01:14:33 <soundnfury> it should not be
01:14:55 <soundnfury> ... huh, so it does
01:14:58 <soundnfury> BUG!
01:15:01 <soundnfury> time to fix!
01:15:02 <elliott____> what
01:15:11 <elliott____> oh
01:15:12 <elliott____> the version thing
01:17:37 <soundnfury> ah, I'm missing a colon
01:19:56 <soundnfury> ok, FITNR
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01:21:57 <elliott____> "it works"
01:22:04 <soundnfury> "indeed it does"
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01:24:27 <elliott____> "'does it really'"
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01:28:37 <soundnfury> «I think so»
01:28:49 <soundnfury> “why, doesn't it for you?”
01:29:50 <elliott____> no
01:29:51 <elliott____> hi
01:29:58 <elliott____> `quote
01:29:59 <elliott____> `quote
01:29:59 <elliott____> `quote
01:29:59 <elliott____> `quote
01:30:00 <elliott____> `quote
01:30:06 <HackEgo> 197) <pikhq> zzo38: A better definition would probably fix Avogadro's number. <Sgeo> It's broken?
01:30:10 <HackEgo> 361) <pikhq_> And if they wanted to go for "true" security, they'd just do "Warning: your computer has not been turned into a plasma. This may cause some of your personal data to be stolen. Click here to turn your computer into a ball of incandescent gas, a gigantic nuclear furnace."
01:30:20 <HackEgo> 136) (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P
01:30:20 <HackEgo> 419) <oklofok> mixing drinks together is like taking all of mozart's works and listening to all of them at once <oklofok> and in general a drink - and most foods - are kind like taking a song and then just taking the average of the notes and listening to it for three minutes. <oklofok> olsner: the point is you don't have to be the composer yourself <oklofok> not everyone knows what sequences of drinks taste the best
01:30:22 <HackEgo> 803) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics.
01:30:58 <elliott____> imo : 361 or 136 or maybe 803
01:31:14 <soundnfury> elliott____: what do you get, then, if not a version response? Still an empty string?
01:31:27 <elliott____> i got a string
01:31:30 <elliott____> the no was at the quotes
01:31:33 <elliott____> they were not acceptable quotes
01:33:06 <soundnfury> oh
01:33:18 <soundnfury> so there was some other conversation going on as well that I missed
01:34:20 <soundnfury> in other news, I've finally got custom widgets working in my GUI toolkit
01:34:41 <soundnfury> thanks to the magic of callback function pointers
01:35:49 * soundnfury sleepy
01:35:51 <soundnfury> nn all
01:38:03 <elliott____> hi
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02:18:18 <zzo38> What Dungeons&Dragons spell or feat did you want to invent?
02:46:12 <coppro> I don't know
02:46:14 <coppro> I didn't invent it
02:48:16 <elliott____> i floor
02:49:31 <Sgeo_> According to Liberal Crime Squad, I hold some Conserative viewpoints
02:49:40 <Sgeo_> (Looking through the source)
02:51:40 <elliott____> hi
02:51:42 <coppro> Sgeo_: you can't capitalize those words
02:51:43 <coppro> only we can
02:52:00 <coppro> you get to capitalize democrat and republican instead
02:52:10 <coppro> (elliott can also capitalize democrat)
02:52:14 <coppro> I can capitalize Democratic though
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02:52:39 <coppro> elliott____: may I suggest a solid s/_//g
02:52:58 <pikhq> s/_/__/g
02:55:48 <elliott____> coppro: no
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02:56:28 <elliott_____> coppro: surely i can only categorise LibDem
02:57:14 <Sgeo_> cygwin is so slow :(
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03:15:45 <zzo38> coppro: I mean one that you do want to invent, not the ones that already exists.
03:15:50 <coppro> I don't know
03:15:57 <coppro> How would I know what ones I want to invent?
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03:32:47 <zzo38> coppro: I thought maybe you would know, but if you do not know that is OK too. I invented some spells/feats such as "Object Mirroring" spell and "Favored Mercy" feat.
03:42:24 <coppro> zzo38: if I knew what they were, I would have invented them already
03:45:12 <zzo38> OK. Did you invented any?
03:46:31 * oerjan invents Anvil Fall, the opposite of Feather Fall. not recommended for fragile characters.
03:46:55 <oerjan> someone probably already did, i guess.
03:47:25 <Sgeo_> Hmm
03:47:41 <Sgeo_> From http://lcsgame.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/lcsgame/trunk/dev/lawrefrence.cpp?revision=589&view=markup Stalinist looks like a possible outcome, but how?
03:48:15 <oerjan> seems someone used the name at least http://www.thievesguild.cc/spells/index.php?Number=808
03:51:33 <coppro> zzo38: no
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03:57:11 <zzo38> oerjan: OK invent Anvil Fall, more specificly.
03:58:33 <oerjan> zzo38: someone else already did in that link i gave
03:58:44 <oerjan> (not sure if it was d&d specifically)
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03:59:10 <zzo38> No, invent it the way you invent it, I mean.
03:59:47 <oerjan> i don't know enough d&d to give specifics.
04:03:46 <zzo38> Do you like my spell?
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04:21:10 <zzo38> oerjan: Can you give the specifics for Icosahedral RPG?
04:21:21 <oerjan> no.
04:22:07 <zzo38> I wanted to eliminate the d10 from Icosahedral RPG since it is not a Platonic solid, although I decided against it since d10 would be need for too many purposes.
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04:22:42 <zzo38> (Instead, I simply mentioned in the rules that d10 is not a Platonic solid.)
04:24:35 <coppro> a d10 isn't that necessary
04:24:48 <coppro> a d20 can randomly select from 10 outcomes fairly
04:25:03 <zzo38> Yes it can, but d10 is better to make percentage rolls.
04:27:26 <elliott_____> oerjan: i really think you ought to give the specifics for icosahedral rpg
04:28:09 * oerjan murders elliott_____. in his sleep.
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04:29:15 <elliott_____> oerjan: how else will zzo38 include it
04:29:25 <oerjan> magic.
04:29:57 <zzo38> From the perspective of the game yes it is magic but from outside of the game we still need to write it down.
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04:30:22 <elliott_____> oerjan: he has a point.
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04:58:07 <zzo38> I have now recorded the last played session of my Dungeons&Dragons game.
04:59:21 <zzo38> Some things will not be revealed in this chapter... you have to wait... such as the reason why Kjugobe has purchased an afro wig
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05:24:25 <coppro> haha
05:25:55 <coppro> there is a US comedy called 30 Rock which revolves around a TV production studio producing a TV show; it gets kind of meta sometimes. Naturally, there was Rule 34 of it. When they wanted to have an episode where the crew was Rule 34ing their show (the show in the show, that is), they hired the real porn actors.
05:27:35 <oerjan> wait, the real porn actors or the porn actors in the show
05:31:38 <coppro> the real show hired the real porn actors who did porn of the real show to play fake porn actors making fake porn of the fake show
05:32:07 <oerjan> O KAY
05:33:16 <olsner> so they were already making porn of the real show before they came up with the idea then?
05:33:52 <oerjan> obviously.
05:34:08 * oerjan gets carried away in a nice white jacket
05:38:08 <oerjan> when the heck _is_ girl genius supposed to update anyway
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05:40:33 <oerjan> once upon a time you could reliably expect it at shortly after 4 UTC
05:45:49 <coppro> it's all right
05:45:53 <coppro> alinhs
05:46:04 <oerjan> wat
05:47:05 <coppro> at least it's not
05:47:08 <coppro> you can fill in the rest
05:47:33 <oerjan> at least it's not lupus
05:49:51 <oerjan> (probably.)
05:50:07 <pikhq_> zzo38: Bah, screw restricting yourself to Platonic solids.
05:50:39 <pikhq_> zzo38: With cylindrical dice you can have an n-sided die, where n >= 1.
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06:11:12 <zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?
06:13:03 <zzo38> To quote someone "No, I don't believe in Astrology. I just carry my sign proudly, if for no other reason than to brag about its characteristics. (most of which don't actually apply to me) And yeah, I think psychology is worse."
06:17:19 <zzo38> GET OUT OF MY CHAIR-Picard
06:48:55 <coppro> `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?
06:51:42 <zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
06:52:25 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:52:40 <coppro> `addquote < zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
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06:52:45 <HackEgo> 849) < zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
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06:54:13 <oerjan> `ls
06:54:15 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ foo \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quotes \ share \ wisdom
06:54:22 <oerjan> `run sed -i '849s/< /</' quotes
06:54:25 <HackEgo> No output.
06:54:30 <oerjan> `quote 849
06:54:33 <HackEgo> 849) <zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not?
07:07:20 <itidus21> well there is progress
07:08:07 <itidus21> we know that extra-terrestrial bodies are made of gases, solids, liquids etc
07:08:57 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, yes; what else would you expect them to be made of, anyways?
07:11:54 <itidus21> we can make accurate predictions about their distribution and motion, which is also progress
07:12:12 <zzo38> Yes
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07:20:07 -!- epicmonkey has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | bananas not welcome unless they bring monkeys | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
07:22:01 <oerjan> DON'T BELIEVE THE TOPIC IT'S ALL MONKEY PROPAGANDA
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07:42:35 <zzo38> OK
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07:50:09 <olsner> what's godwinning?
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07:51:11 <olsner> <zzo38> GET OUT OF MY CHAIR-Picard <-- you know, in the first episode of TNG, Picard invites Wesley to sit in his chair
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07:54:21 <oerjan> olsner: application of godwin's law
07:54:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
07:55:41 <olsner> (of course, just before that there's this "a CHILD!? on MY BRIDGE?" moment followed by "oh, he's your [beverly's] son? go on then")
07:56:25 <AnotherTest> oh, I've seen that episode
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08:18:01 <olsner> oerjan: oh, now I understand what you were answering
08:18:03 <olsner> ... why the double n though, shouldn't that be spelled godwining?
08:18:40 <olsner> I was having trouble connecting godwin's law with wesley sitting in picard's chair
08:18:55 <fizzie> God-whining.
08:20:28 <oerjan> olsner: english doubles consonants when necessary to prevent the pronunciation rules from changing the vowels. e.g. -in is pronounced with a short i, while -ining starts with a long one, so you need -inning to keep it short.
08:21:01 <oerjan> except when they don't, but that's the rule i try to follow.
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08:22:50 <olsner> somewhat surprising rule given that english in general doesn't seem to care about maintaining any sort of correspondence between spelling and pronunciation
08:23:09 <oerjan> ha
08:23:44 <coppro> doubled letters are also pronounced differently
08:23:54 <coppro> if you are speaking slowly
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08:23:58 <shubshub> Hi
08:23:59 <coppro> if you're going quickly they blur
08:24:21 <shubshub> I Have Returned
08:24:41 <oerjan> `pastlog shubshub
08:24:50 <shubshub> huh
08:24:58 <oerjan> JUST CHECKING
08:25:02 <shubshub> `pastlog shubshub
08:25:06 <shubshub> ?
08:25:13 <oerjan> that bot is horribly slow sometimes
08:25:19 <HackEgo> No output.
08:25:20 <shubshub> lol
08:25:24 <olsner> how about using a diaeresis? godwinïng
08:25:30 <HackEgo> 2012-04-27.txt:07:48:12: <shubshub> C:
08:25:34 <oerjan> ah
08:25:43 <shubshub> lol
08:25:52 <oerjan> shubshub: INDEED YOU HAVE
08:26:08 <shubshub> Im thinking of my million dollar idea
08:26:14 <oerjan> olsner: i don't think the english _do_ that.
08:26:26 <shubshub> Something to do with programming
08:26:50 <shubshub> A Game Which Teaches Programming
08:27:39 <olsner> oerjan: no, but they could ... I think in swedish you can use : for that and say something like Godwin:ing (except we wouldn't -ing, we'd -otherstuff)
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08:28:20 <oerjan> godwin'era?
08:28:24 <oerjan> er
08:28:28 <oerjan> godwin:era?
08:28:33 <olsner> yeah
08:28:45 <olsner> or perhaps godwin-era
08:30:45 <olsner> wikipedia says we use the colon for conjugating numbers, letters and abbreviations (and/or acronyms)
08:31:18 <oerjan> you swedes are so strange >:)
08:32:09 <oerjan> although i do recall seeing that
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08:34:24 <olsner> the same wikipedia page implies that we don't use the colon for names or for acronyms that are not spelled out
08:36:31 <olsner> "Kanalen avstängd på grund av godwinering"
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08:37:31 <Vorpal> olsner, "godwinering"?
08:37:33 <Vorpal> wtf is that
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08:37:40 <olsner> Vorpal: godwinning
08:37:50 <Vorpal> olsner, I don't know what that is either
08:37:55 <olsner> that or the God wine ring
08:37:57 <Vorpal> god winning over the heathens?
08:38:18 <itidus21> i wonder how long it will be before i have an original idea
08:38:27 <Vorpal> olsner, does it make any sense to you?
08:38:28 <olsner> itidus21: you might never have an original idea
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08:39:23 <olsner> Vorpal: does it make more sense if I write it godwin:ering?
08:39:31 <Vorpal> olsner, nope
08:39:36 <olsner> godwin-ering then?
08:39:46 <Vorpal> I don't even know what "godwin" is
08:40:02 <olsner> ah, I think that's the key deficiency
08:40:08 <Vorpal> olsner, is it a real word?
08:40:15 <Vorpal> in which language?
08:40:46 <olsner> godwin is a name
08:40:50 <Vorpal> oh right
08:41:07 <Vorpal> oh right, the internet discussion nazi law
08:41:20 <olsner> though it could be a word meaning "god's victory", as in win < epic win < GODWIN
08:41:44 <Vorpal> that is what I thought first
08:42:06 <olsner> well, the topic explicitly says that's NOT what it means
08:42:16 <Vorpal> oh the topic... *reads*
08:42:26 <olsner> oh the face... *palms*
08:42:40 <Vorpal> right
08:43:01 <Vorpal> olsner, why were you translating it to Swedish
08:43:45 <olsner> iirc, it was the continuation of a discussion about english orthography
08:43:48 <Vorpal> olsner, anyway when I first saw you mention it I thought "hm, did he see that on a sign next to a channel in the city he lives in?" XD
08:44:06 <Vorpal> like, channel with water in it
08:44:30 <Vorpal> hm. "Göta kanal avstängd på grund av godwinering"
08:44:36 <oerjan> En mann, en plan, en kanal, Panama!
08:44:57 <Vorpal> oerjan, mann with two n? What?
08:45:12 <Vorpal> is that how you guys spell it?
08:45:14 <oerjan> ...darn swedes
08:45:17 <oerjan> yes
08:45:23 <Vorpal> right
08:45:51 <olsner> there's something special with doubled consonants and ends of words in swedish
08:45:57 <oerjan> except i was aiming for swedish there, and being amused that there was no difference :(
08:46:04 <oerjan> (but there was)
08:47:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that a quote from somewhere?
08:47:14 <olsner> it would be useful for swedish to spell it mann, to differentiate it from man meaning mane
08:47:23 <Vorpal> well yes
08:47:36 <oerjan> Vorpal: A man, a plan, a canal, Panama!
08:47:47 <Vorpal> oerjan, is that a quote from somewhere?
08:48:06 <oerjan> technically, yes
08:48:09 <Vorpal> okay
08:48:10 <Vorpal> oerjan, btw, do you write hade or hadde or something else for "had" in Norwegian?
08:48:14 <itidus21> isle of mann, where men are men
08:48:16 <oerjan> hadde
08:48:22 <Vorpal> oerjan, heathen ;P
08:48:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, why do you write it like it sounds it should be written!
08:49:00 <Vorpal> that makes no sense
08:49:30 <olsner> swedish is just a horrible language, we should stop using it :)
08:49:43 <itidus21> olsner: well i don't think there are many non-deterministic bitmaps in practice
08:49:57 <itidus21> thats my new idea
08:49:59 <oerjan> Vorpal: well as a consolation, we write the _pronoun_ as "man" for some reason.
08:50:09 <oerjan> (as do you)
08:50:15 <itidus21> having said this, i want to hear more about swedish
08:50:24 <itidus21> so.. don't reply
08:50:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, and what about mane? Do you write it as "man"?
08:50:44 <oerjan> yep
08:51:19 <olsner> itidus21: now that's an original idea right there, I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to hear more about swedish before
08:51:21 <Vorpal> well I have to leave now, guests.
08:51:36 <itidus21> well i lied, i just don't want to break the topic
08:51:49 <olsner> itidus21: ah, that makes more sense
08:51:57 <oerjan> Vorpal: now i notice it's "katt" in swedish as well, so it's not all words...
08:52:27 <oerjan> oh well bye
08:52:37 <olsner> maybe only m and n do it
08:52:51 <oerjan> ...in norwegian m does, but not n
08:53:02 <itidus21> nondeterministic bitmaps man... i bet its all been done 40 years ago :-s
08:53:37 <itidus21> maybe shaders have started doing things like that
08:55:55 <olsner> could be historic too, you wouldn't uproot the established spellings of all those common words just because you've figured out a neat system using double consonants to indicate that the previous vowel is pronounced differently
08:57:43 <oerjan> hm a lot of words that end in -nn in norwegian don't end in either of just -n or -nn in swedish. like no:vann = sv:vatten
08:58:28 <oerjan> no:tann = sv:tand
08:58:33 <olsner> both a and e are short though, so maybe it should be vattenn
08:58:56 <itidus21> basically, instead of saying this pixel is red, i'm saying this pixel is a random selection of {lightred,red,darkred}
08:59:01 <oerjan> the e isn't stressed though
09:00:06 <oerjan> which explains why some common words don't have double consonants - they're almost never stressed
09:00:30 <itidus21> so that, with iterated renderings, the non-deterministic bitmap is animated
09:01:10 <oerjan> no:sønn = sv:son
09:01:48 <itidus21> this would end up looking really cool
09:01:49 <olsner> I think the e has been moving out entirely for some time, and many dialects say something like vattn or vatt'n
09:02:19 <olsner> and from there, you're just one step away from vann
09:02:46 <oerjan> swedish has kan/vill, while norwegian has kan/vil
09:03:01 <oerjan> it's vatn in nynorsk, anyway
09:03:12 <olsner> sv:son has a long o btw
09:03:48 <olsner> so it's definitely not sonn misspelled, unless the current pronounciation comes from mispronouncing sonn-spelled-son
09:04:26 <oerjan> it's son in nynorsk too :P
09:06:39 <olsner> that word seems to be so common it has had all possible spellings
09:06:47 <oerjan> heh
09:06:48 <olsner> including soon and sånn
09:08:20 <itidus21> according to google, most people see nondeterministic rendering as a bug..
09:09:12 <olsner> it is a bug for anything that is trying to do deterministic rendering
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09:10:20 <itidus21> hmm apparently i'm reinventing another wheel though
09:12:04 <olsner> what do you mean by nondeterministic bitmap, btw?
09:14:01 <itidus21> well im an uneducated ass so i don't know the correct term
09:14:20 <itidus21> but i merely mean that instead of having 1 colour defined for a pixel
09:14:34 <itidus21> having a set of colours from which 1 is randomly selected
09:14:56 <itidus21> with weighting of course *__*
09:16:04 <itidus21> so lets say on a tree, normally the pixel is {green} ... now the pixel is {95% chance of dark green, 5% chance of light green}
09:17:13 <itidus21> so that, whenever you render this tree, approximately 95% of the leaf pixels are dark green
09:17:52 <itidus21> and if you render it in iterations, the leaves will have some kind of animation effect
09:18:00 <olsner> I think generating and displaying noise of various kinds isn't exactly new
09:18:06 <itidus21> right..
09:18:49 <itidus21> but, i thought of doing it in 2d :D
09:19:25 <itidus21> again probably not new
09:19:37 <itidus21> but it is as if new to me
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09:27:27 <itidus21> olsner: i have been thinking about bitmaps more and more. noise seems to be my latest find
09:35:40 <fizzie> For animationy things, you might want to constrain the consecutive frames somehow, since if you just treat them independently like that, you'll get the analog-TV-no-channel "snow" kind of thing (well, except green), and not many of the trees I've seen out there look exactly like that.
09:37:40 <itidus21> hmm..it could well be a really bad idea, the kind that game reviewers ponder what the hell were they thinking
09:39:16 <itidus21> fizzie: the main problem with all this stuff i think is concern over how expensive all this kind of pixel by pixel calculation will get. but surely it can't be that bad
09:39:27 <itidus21> at least if the resolution is kept under control
09:43:20 <itidus21> another option i can consider is random palette swapping
09:44:36 <itidus21> hmm
09:45:07 <itidus21> @_@ i might want to constrain the consecutive frames somehow
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09:53:12 <itidus21> anyway i think noise is cool
09:54:25 <itidus21> one fascinating aspect of noise is that if two people are exploring the same virtual world (not necessarily at the same time), then noise won't prevent them feeling it is the same world
09:55:32 <itidus21> ty all for listening
10:01:27 <itidus21> imagine, for instance, comics with noise
10:02:02 <itidus21> the noise being synonyms selected from a thesaurus
10:03:17 <olsner> that sounds like fun
10:03:28 <olsner> you should do a textnoiser
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10:36:34 <fizzie> Sounds like Mad Libs, really.
10:36:50 <itidus21> dimmi, dimmi se mai fu fatta cosa alcuna
10:39:19 <itidus21> ce n'est pas une citation da vinci
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10:41:32 <itidus21> `pastlog mad libs
10:41:39 <HackEgo> No output.
10:41:42 <itidus21> `pastlog mad libs
10:41:50 <HackEgo> No output.
10:41:58 <itidus21> i wonder if it is the right word
10:42:00 <itidus21> `pastlog mad libs
10:42:08 <HackEgo> No output.
10:42:20 <itidus21> `pastlogs mad libs
10:42:23 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
10:42:31 <itidus21> `pastlog mad libs
10:42:38 <HackEgo> No output.
10:42:45 <itidus21> ok u win hackego.. for now
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11:48:46 <itidus21> about the 4d visualization thing, the trick is to find shortcuts to visualizing.. and the way to find those shortcuts is to have a real motivating objective to visualizing 4d
11:49:09 <itidus21> it's not really enough to do it for it's own sake
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12:43:34 <nooga> ha
12:43:43 <nooga> my JIT assembler works like a charm
12:43:57 <Phantom_Hoover> OK wait, who told iti about 4D anything.
12:44:13 <monqy> what sort of 4d is this
12:44:34 <monqy> the scratch and sniff kind?
12:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The one that's one more D than 3.
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12:46:27 <elliott__> 06:54:22: <oerjan> `run sed -i '849s/< /</' quotes
12:46:29 <elliott__> thank you
12:46:30 <elliott__> `help
12:46:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:47:22 <olsner> "A 4GL is defined as a language that supports 12–20 function points per staff month. This correlates with about 16–27 lines of code per function point implemented in a 4GL."
12:47:44 <elliott__> oh go
12:47:44 <elliott__> d
12:47:46 <elliott__> shubshub came back
12:47:54 <nortti> `run echo $PWD
12:47:57 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv
12:48:30 <nooga> what
12:48:45 <elliott__> what
12:48:52 -!- ogrom has joined.
12:51:35 <nortti> what what?
12:52:27 <elliott__> what
12:53:59 <olsner> collect 8 spellings of what, encode BF, done
13:03:08 <nooga> óĶ©
13:03:28 <elliott__>
13:03:51 <nooga>
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13:43:03 <kmc> olsner: \rainbow{ESOLANG}
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13:43:27 <elliott__> ^rainbow ESOLANG
13:43:33 <elliott__> fungot!!!
13:43:35 <elliott__> fizzie:
13:43:45 -!- ogrom has joined.
13:44:20 <fizzie> Oh no.
13:44:55 <elliott__> is it dead :(
13:45:06 -!- fungot has joined.
13:45:16 <elliott__> ^rainbow ESOLANG
13:45:17 <fungot> ESOLANG
13:45:20 <elliott__> kmc: celgebrate
13:45:45 <fizzie> It had a ting pimeout.
13:47:09 <elliott__> It hapens . once i had a ting pimeout and I had to get my ting removed
14:09:11 <elliott__> fizzie: should i play spelunky
14:09:32 <kmc> that's a kinda weak rainbow
14:09:41 <elliott__> ^rainbow I'm very offended
14:09:42 <fungot> I'm very offended
14:09:46 <elliott__> ^rainbow2
14:09:46 <fungot> ...too much output!
14:09:56 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:09:59 <elliott__> ^rainbow please apologise, kmc
14:10:00 <fungot> please apologise, kmc
14:10:02 <nortti> ^rainbow
14:10:10 <nortti> ^rainbow2 foo
14:10:10 <fungot> ...too much output!
14:11:21 <fizzie> The second doesn't take inputs.
14:11:27 <fizzie> ^show rainbow2
14:11:27 <fungot> ((0)(15)(14)(1)(2)(12)(11)(10)(3)(9)(8)(7)(5)(4)(13)(6))(~^:()SSa~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a~*~a*~(█)S:^):^
14:11:42 <fizzie> But it has a handpicked color order.
14:12:22 <nortti> ^show rainbow
14:12:22 <fungot> +3>4+6[->+8<],[<4.>[->+>+<2]>2-[-[-[-[-[-[-[<[-]>[-]]]]]]]]<[-<+>2+<]<+>4.[-<2+>3+<]<2+2.[-]>.>2[-<+>]<2,]
14:12:34 <nortti> what lang it that?
14:12:40 <elliott__> brainfuck
14:12:52 <fizzie> It's brainfuck, just with a shortcut notation.
14:13:00 <fizzie> That one just cycles 2..9 or so.
14:13:02 <nortti> like BF-RLE?
14:13:56 <fizzie> Kind of. Technically what happens is that bf input gets compiled into a bytecode where there's just "add X to tape pointer" and "add X to current cell" opcodes.
14:14:05 <nortti> ok
14:14:13 <fizzie> And ^show then converts back but doesn't bother repeating the character, instead just displays the number.
14:14:58 <fizzie> Come to think of it, it probably doesn't even take the tape-size/cell-size modulo at that point yet.
14:15:02 <nortti> is the number before or after the command to be repeated?
14:15:06 <fizzie> After.
14:15:30 <fizzie> ^def tmp bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
14:15:31 <fungot> Defined.
14:15:35 <fizzie> ^show tmp
14:15:36 <fungot> +64
14:15:40 <fizzie> Oh, it does.
14:16:33 <fizzie> ^def tmp bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------------------------------------------------
14:16:34 <fungot> Defined.
14:16:38 <fizzie> ^show tmp
14:16:39 <fungot> -64-64
14:16:42 <fizzie> Fancy.
14:16:56 <fizzie> I didn't think it did that.
14:17:31 <fizzie> Doesn't combine those, though. If you put in a series of +s and -s, they get treated as separate things.
14:25:10 <elliott__> fizzie: hi
14:26:48 <fizzie> Hullo.
14:27:17 <fizzie> I'm in Belgiquë, if you hadn't heard.
14:27:23 <fizzie> Though not for long now.
14:27:34 <fizzie> (One more week.)
14:27:52 <olsner> belgy-cue
14:30:12 <fizzie> If I've understood correctly, the French-speaking part says Belgique, while the Dutch-speaking part says België maybe, so I kind of combined them.
14:30:35 <tswett> "america = double continent which is made out of north&south america."
14:30:38 <tswett> I hate Gene Ray.
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14:30:52 <fizzie> I'm not sure why exactly they say België when this keyboard doesn't even have an ë.
14:31:53 <olsner> is Gene Ray the timecube guy?
14:32:29 <kmc> fizzie: what about the german-speaking part, you insensitive clod!
14:32:47 <kmc> olsner: yes
14:32:47 <tswett> olsner: yeah.
14:33:02 <kmc> 'Before Time Cube, Otis E. Ray advocated the sport of marbles. He authored a book titled Mr. Marbles – Marbles for Everyone,[10] and got the city council of St. Petersburg, Florida to proclaim a "Marbles Week" in the 1970s. In 1987, this became a controversial attempt to establish a million dollar marble tournament inside a huge round structure and establish a philosophical "Order of the Sphere."'
14:33:08 <kmc> then he lost his marbles.
14:33:34 <olsner> fizzie: oh, since they speak both german and french, belgium must be switzerland
14:34:08 <fizzie> olsner: Dutch and French.
14:34:16 <fizzie> Admittedly Dutch is kind of poor man's German.
14:34:22 <nooga> areally?
14:34:27 <nooga> really?
14:34:39 <fizzie> I don't speak it so I don't know. :p
14:34:54 <fizzie> But the locals have described it as being something between German and English.
14:35:02 <fizzie> Geographically that would make sense.
14:35:17 <nooga> oh
14:35:52 <fizzie> In Luxembourg, though, all the signs were in French and German.
14:36:08 <nooga> that's weird that we don't have a dutch guy here on the channel
14:36:23 <fizzie> (So I guess Luxembourg is Switzerland.)
14:36:40 <nooga> they're known for OCD stuff like building enormous redstone contraptions in minecraft
14:36:43 <nooga> or OTTD
14:36:59 <olsner> fizzie: indeed, and so is austria
14:37:13 -!- MDoze has changed nick to MDude.
14:37:37 <olsner> I suspect that every country is every other country, but I haven't run through all the data yet
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14:39:07 <nooga> meh
14:39:14 <Taneb> Hello!
14:39:16 <fizzie> This "whtspc" dude, noisy in 2009, seems to have had a .nl host.
14:39:23 <nooga> hello
14:39:46 <fizzie> And some "labbekak" dude from start of June, this year.
14:40:22 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7RE7DKSvKU
14:40:28 <Taneb> 75, 5, 10, 9, 4, 2
14:40:30 <Taneb> 939
14:41:14 <nooga> ?
14:42:33 <Taneb> Countdown numbers
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14:46:20 <elliott__> fizzie: whtspc was the paintfuck guy.
14:48:39 <itidus21> paintfuck is really quite good
14:49:02 <nortti> the 2 dimensional smallfuck?
14:49:21 <itidus21> i've been studying (yeah pig's ass) bitmaps a bit
14:49:43 <itidus21> my biggest regret in life is my inability to study
14:52:10 <Taneb> 100, 2, 1, 7, 9, 3
14:52:11 <Taneb> 297
14:52:17 <Taneb> (easy one)
14:53:48 <fizzie> > (100-1)*3
14:53:50 <lambdabot> 297
14:54:23 <Taneb> > (3 * 100) - 2 - 1
14:54:25 <lambdabot> 297
14:56:11 <fizzie> > 3 * 100 - 9 - 1 + 7
14:56:12 <lambdabot> 297
14:56:30 <fizzie> Is it good to use more numbers? I don't know anything about this.
14:56:52 <Taneb> You just need to get within 10 of the answer, the closer the better
14:57:15 <nooga> wht's this?
14:57:22 <Taneb> Countdown
14:57:25 <Taneb> British game show
14:57:39 <fizzie> I wikipedia'd it between those two sets of numbers, if you couldn't tell.
14:58:04 <nooga> oh
14:58:33 <elliott__> Taneb: There's a nice Haskell program to solve Countdown, you know.
14:58:36 <elliott__> One of the functional pearls.
14:58:43 <Taneb> Almost certainly
14:59:20 <Taneb> It's a very functionally type problem
14:59:39 <itidus21> > 3 * 100 - 2 * 9 + 7 + 1
14:59:40 <lambdabot> 290
15:00:19 <elliott__> It is really more of a logic programming type thing, except the cleanest implementation in Prolog gives an inefficient algorithm.
15:00:30 <itidus21> > 3 * 100 - 2 * 7 + 9 + 1
15:00:31 <lambdabot> 296
15:01:08 <Taneb> what-if xkcd has really gone downhill
15:01:15 <kmc> hahahaha
15:01:17 <nortti> how?
15:01:20 <elliott__> that was quick
15:02:39 <elliott__> Taneb: what are you talking about, this one is great
15:02:58 <itidus21> i always used to think the force was unlimited
15:03:20 <itidus21> that if someone really wanted they could move a planet
15:03:40 <Taneb> itidus21, I'm moving the planet as we speak
15:04:04 <itidus21> hmm
15:04:08 <nooga> look at the sun, it's moving
15:04:15 <elliott__> it would seem rather against the themes of Star Wars to have Yoda be suddenly stopped by a vehicle that's twice the weight, yes
15:04:18 <Taneb> nooga, ooh, good one
15:04:33 <nooga> Taneb: can you stop moving it for a moment?
15:04:41 <nooga> that'd be awesome
15:04:51 <Taneb> nooga, it's got too much momentum now
15:05:56 <itidus21> for me, the important question was 1) why can't the force be used to fly, and 2) why can't the force be used to throw people
15:06:02 <nortti> Taneb: can you slow it down?
15:06:10 <Taneb> Not right now, getting eggs
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15:06:17 <itidus21> i think george lucas has his reasons
15:09:04 <itidus21> ... planet was arbitrary, but in other words, i wasn't aware of any actual constraints on the force.. i guess they were implied
15:11:25 <fizzie> itidus21: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis#Levitation and the 'Force Flight' thing below.
15:14:16 <nooga> i think i will play minecraft
15:20:58 <itidus21> awesome http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_kick
15:21:09 <itidus21> thats almost too good to be true
15:24:30 <fizzie> Just a hunch, but I don't think everything in Star Wars actually is true.
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15:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> fun fact, wookiepedia has an article on breasts which gives a list of appearances
15:30:20 <Taneb> Hello
15:30:37 <Phantom_Hoover> memory alpha also has one, which is in the past tense because presumably breasts stopped existing at some point in the st canon
15:30:58 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, did you never watch DS9?
15:31:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Why yes, yes I did.
15:31:12 <elliott__> memory alpha is set in the future where everything is destroyed
15:31:18 <elliott__> like you are actually required to write about everything in past tense
15:31:31 <elliott__> after all ceases to exist, the only thing left is to chronicle what was
15:31:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Deep.
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15:32:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the only logical conclusion is that you're searching for breasts on wikis describing sci-fi series
15:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Unfortunately I don't actually remember how I got there.
15:32:22 <elliott__> ais523: hi
15:32:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It was probably a page link on Memory Alpha.
15:33:32 <elliott__> ais523: that was a nice hi
15:34:48 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.memory-alpha.org/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere&target=breast&namespace= has several plausible starting points.
15:36:50 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bubble
15:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess as of Memory Alpha's writing bubbles still exist?
15:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Milk
15:38:08 <elliott__> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_bubble also warp bubbles
15:38:14 <elliott__> also milk?
15:38:15 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so... milk still exists, but breasts don't?
15:38:23 <elliott__> the perfect world
15:39:10 <elliott__> "When milk is heated, the amino acid in the lactose it contains is activated, acting as a natural sedative, helping one sleep."
15:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Early_production_history
15:40:34 <Phantom_Hoover> wow, production started in 1882
15:40:39 <ais523> hi lambdabot
15:40:39 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 7 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
15:41:42 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: how weird is it that people born in the 19th century acted in Star Trek?
15:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> well when you consider that it first aired in the 60s... not very?
15:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What is weird that shots of Earth from space in TOS look really crappy and faked because nobody had any idea what the Earth looked like from space.
15:43:33 <nortti> what do they look like? any pictures?
15:44:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't be arsed to find them, but it's just a geographical globe in the backdrop.
15:44:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Really flat colours, not much shading, no clouds at all.
15:44:53 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: OK but it means there was someone old enough to have read a novel by Verne when it came out who /acted in Star Trek/.
15:45:03 <elliott__> That isn't freaky to you????
15:45:22 <Phantom_Hoover> OK that is weird.
15:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW the first non-birth event in that timeline I can find is in '44.
16:13:19 <Vorpal> <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: OK but it means there was someone old enough to have read a novel by Verne when it came out who /acted in Star Trek/. <-- only just though
16:14:26 <elliott__> Vorpal: not really, there's a decade or so window
16:14:50 <Vorpal> oh right, some books were published post-humus
16:15:01 <Vorpal> (wait I typoed that didn't I?)
16:15:23 <Vorpal> and it looks like he wrote books until his very death
16:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> No, the expression refers to topsoil, or humus.
16:15:47 <Vorpal> right
16:15:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It's post-humus if it's published after you're on the wrong side of it.
16:15:59 <Vorpal> what is the word I'm looking for then
16:16:14 <Vorpal> wait a second
16:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Humous.
16:16:56 <Vorpal> okay
16:17:18 <Vorpal> so the last book seems to have been published in 1909? There is one more that wikipedia's bibliography doesn't even list a date for hm
16:19:10 <Vorpal> which year was the first Star Trek episode recorded in?
16:19:41 <Vorpal> 1966 it seems
16:20:05 <Vorpal> okay, 1909 for the last one. (He died in 1905 though), so that means you have to be maybe 8 or 9 years old or so to read it at that point (somewhat optimistic)? So lets say someone born in 1900 then. So about 66 years old then?
16:20:30 <Vorpal> elliott__, sure there is a window, wouldn't say that window was as large as a decade though
16:21:21 <elliott__> 1882 birthdate, go look up jules verne's bibliography and consider ages of literacy
16:21:25 <Vorpal> I don't have the retirement statistics for actors on the top of my head though
16:21:41 <elliott__> and we are assuming pre-death books here
16:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, I know in Sweden you don't learn to read until your mid 20s but in America they may learn it as early as 15,
16:21:53 <elliott__> Vorpal: um, that timeline lists the birthdate of an actor.
16:21:57 <elliott__> who was in star trek.
16:21:58 <elliott__> 1882.
16:22:00 <Vorpal> oh
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16:22:03 <Vorpal> who was that
16:22:06 <elliott__> some dude
16:22:11 <elliott__> there's a few others from the 1800s too
16:22:37 <elliott__> did you know that old actors sometimes play old people
16:23:22 <Vorpal> elliott__, well of course, but it is just as common to use makeup to add a decade or so when needed from what I understand
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16:33:09 <ais523> haha, Windows Server 2013 uses Metro?
16:33:55 <ais523> I guess that's not much weirder than using a desktop…
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16:43:38 <Taneb> Why does a server OS need Metro?
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16:50:14 <olsner> for the commute to The Cloud?
16:54:53 <itidus21> Taneb: it's a bit like how you need 2 copies of the pokemon game to collect em all
16:55:09 <Taneb> itidus21, but you can't get Celebi!
16:55:29 <itidus21> ie. artificially difficult requirements
16:56:53 <itidus21> it sounds like i misinterpreted this all
17:02:31 <zzo38> Do you like the UnOlympics?
17:05:28 <itidus21> probably
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17:09:26 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/EPhJ
17:11:23 <itidus21> somehow i imagined beer would be involved
17:18:32 <Vorpal> itidus21, well it does list "beer pong" whatever that is
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17:24:02 <zzo38> I don't know what that means either.
17:24:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, you didn't compose the list?
17:26:45 <zzo38> I did write the list but I did not write all the entries that are part of the list.
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17:40:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Beer pong is a drinking game involving ping pong balls and cups of beer.
17:42:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: You bounce a ping pong ball across a table, attempting to make it land in one of the cups on the opponent's side; if you do, the opponent will have to drink that. Or something much like that, anyway. Possibly teams and many cups and other complications, but that's the basic idea.
18:11:36 <elliott__> fizzie: hi
18:13:07 <fizzie> Ho.
18:13:59 <elliott__> fizzie: it's off to
18:14:36 <fizzie> Work we go.
18:14:51 <elliott__> fizzie: I forget what comes next.
18:15:02 <fizzie> I don't know either.
18:15:20 <fizzie> To be perfectly honest, I even googled that bit.
18:15:29 <elliott__> fizzie: For shame.
18:16:01 <elliott__> fizzie: Foshame.
18:16:06 <elliott__> Ancient warrior Foshame.
18:22:14 <fizzie> I was trying to think of something to the tune of "and his trusty sidekick Shum Ting", but couldn't figure out any expression that'd inherently go with "for shame".
18:22:54 <itidus21> Tonight's main event at the Coliseum: Foshame Versus The Tiger
18:23:44 <fizzie> Foshame with an athame.
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18:28:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm thinking the next line is "with sticks and spades and hand grenades" but I may be remembering some different lyrics from my days at primary school.
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18:29:04 <Gregor> You're not remembering the next line because it's just whistling X_X
18:29:32 <fizzie> The Google-hit I read has it continue with we dig dig dig dig and so on.
18:29:47 <elliott__> We dig dig dig dig and so on / and then we eat a scone.
18:29:49 <fizzie> Possibly they've omitted the whistling.
18:34:43 <fizzie> Today's annoyance: MATLAB Distributed Computing Server, supposedly the fanciest thing since sliced bread, is apparently impossible to use without having access to the MATLAB GUI desktop, because you can only manage parallel execution configurations using the graphical Configurations Manager.
18:35:18 <Gregor> You're using MATLAB.
18:35:21 <Gregor> That was your first mistake.
18:35:29 <fizzie> (Also Atlassian Confluence shows/hides the sidebar whenever the windows key is pressed, so it keeps flipping open and closed whenever I switch workspaces, but that's a minor annoyance.)
18:35:45 <fizzie> I don't really have a choice.
18:37:06 <fizzie> The code I need to run is MATLAB code, and the official word (according to docs, enforced by license-related means) is that all that stuff needs to go through the MDCS, because the MDCS is so fancy, and presents an entirely new kind of interactive workflow.
18:37:14 <fizzie> (That was a quote.)
18:38:09 -!- Browkling has joined.
18:38:30 <fizzie> I tried to ssh -XY a remotely accessible shell server, and then ssh -XY from there to the cluster frontend, but the desktop wouldn't open. It gets the windows open, writes "Initializing..." in the corner indicator dealie, and then sits there for at least half an hour.
18:38:58 <Browkling> Pls How to use im New here
18:39:34 <fizzie> Then I tried to run Xvnc or something on a computer that's geographically near the cluster frontend, in the hopes that I could get the X forwarding to work from there, but our Linux distribution doesn't include (a) a VNC server, or (b) enough -dev packages to compile one.
18:39:48 <fizzie> `welcome Browkling
18:39:52 <HackEgo> Browkling: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:39:56 <fizzie> I suppose that wasn't exactly helpful.
18:40:08 <Phantom_Hoover> `WELCOME Browkling
18:40:11 <HackEgo> BROWKLING: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
18:40:31 <nortti> `WeLcOmE Browkling
18:40:35 <HackEgo> BrOwKlInG: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
18:40:52 <elliott__> Browkling: ni
18:40:53 <elliott__> *hi
18:41:06 <fizzie> Phew. I was kind of afraid the wide thing was coming next.
18:41:10 <elliott__> fizzie: Isn't -Y the same as -XY?
18:41:15 <shachaf> elliott__: Did you ping me?
18:41:41 <fizzie> elliott__: Probably, now that you mention. The official instructions mention -XY, that's why I went with it, but that's probably just stupidity.
18:42:11 <Browkling> fizzie: pls How CAN i see pepoele here
18:42:37 <Browkling> Im on i phone
18:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Browkling, you can ask for pictures, but they mightn't give you them.
18:42:56 <elliott__> Browkling: IRC is text-only chat, I'm afraid
18:43:06 <Browkling> Ok thanks
18:43:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor's site has photos, photos of fizzie exist but they need a fair bit of stalking to find.
18:43:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Various others have posted an image or two but you need to crawl the logs.
18:43:55 <elliott__> apparently Phantom_Hoover keeps track of these things
18:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Obviously; I need to know what people look like so I can discern their character flaws from their appearance.
18:45:04 <nortti> photos of me can be found at http://rand.smar.fi/miitti/misc/Nortti
18:45:23 <Gregor> I look like this: /)^3^(\
18:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> which part is the hat
18:45:51 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, ah, your character flaw is that you are a young girl.
18:46:02 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: I am a boy
18:46:15 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: also is 14 young?
18:46:18 <Phantom_Hoover> In that case your character flaw is a phobia of hairdressers.
18:46:23 <nortti> :P
18:47:26 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover clearly did not see my hair before its cutting
18:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott__ looks like a young girl too, perhaps you could be friends and talk about ponies and makeup and such?
18:47:39 <nortti> no
18:47:51 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, hey.
18:47:56 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Talking about ponies is for men.
18:48:29 <zzo38> Anyone can talk about ponies if you want, why should your gender matter?
18:48:51 <Gregor> I approve.
18:49:00 <copumpkin> zzo38++
18:49:01 <nortti> I am not interested in ponies
18:49:14 <zzo38> OK
18:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> oh well, it was not to be
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18:56:54 <sleepopol> nortti: are you the little girl?
18:57:00 -!- sleepopol has changed nick to oklopol.
18:57:02 <nortti> sleepopol: no
18:57:10 <oklopol> are you the nerd?
18:57:21 <nortti> you could say so
18:57:24 <nortti> why?
18:57:37 <Gregor> http://websplat.bitbucket.org/ Because PONIES IN YOUR INTERWEBS THAT'S WHY
18:57:53 <Madoka-Kaname> Is nortti troll enough to weaponize gender ambiguity?
18:58:14 <nortti> not usually
18:58:18 <oklopol> by little girl i meant this guy http://rand.smar.fi/miitti/misc/Nortti/DSC_0380.JPG
18:58:41 <oklopol> i may have misparsed the first picture a bit.
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19:00:18 <Slereah_> Cute ears.
19:00:27 <nortti> oklopol: I am the one with the cat ears
19:00:49 * Madoka-Kaname pets nortti :3
19:00:51 <oklopol> you look a bit young.
19:00:59 <nortti> I am 14
19:01:10 <Madoka-Kaname> Eh.
19:01:11 <Madoka-Kaname> W-Wait.
19:01:16 <Madoka-Kaname> Does that mean I'm not the youngest anymore?
19:01:18 <oklopol> huh.
19:01:41 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: how old are you?
19:01:51 <Madoka-Kaname> 15, now 16 :<
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19:07:20 <itidus21> ponies in the lightning, in the lightning
19:09:23 <oklopol> nortti: so i guess you are not in a university then?
19:10:16 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: when did you join the first time?
19:10:20 <nortti> oklopol: yes
19:11:03 <itidus21> sheesh
19:11:21 <nortti> oklopol: did you believe I was in a university?
19:11:35 <Madoka-Kaname> Nope.
19:11:39 * Madoka-Kaname glomps nortti :3
19:12:19 <itidus21> it makes it all the more painful to be 30 and still be the dumbest in the room
19:12:40 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: why did you say "Nope." ?
19:14:11 <itidus21> not really painful
19:14:15 <Madoka-Kaname> <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: when did you join the first time?
19:14:16 <Madoka-Kaname> Oh--
19:14:17 <Madoka-Kaname> Whoops, I didn't read the "When"
19:14:19 <Madoka-Kaname> Um.
19:14:21 <Madoka-Kaname> I dunno!!
19:14:26 <Madoka-Kaname> Like, a year or two ago?
19:14:47 <nortti> oh. I really haven't seen you talking that much
19:15:56 <oklopol> nortti: somehow i thought you were
19:16:15 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: also you have pretty interesting cloak (~moe@inportb/loli/cirno-chan)
19:16:25 <nortti> oklopol: why?
19:16:59 <oklopol> perhaps because you don't really disclose much about yourself so i make my own assumptions. dunno.
19:17:00 <itidus21> i assumed nortti was just another run-of-the-mill-esolang-phd
19:17:51 <Madoka-Kaname> =p
19:18:33 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: is cirno-chan reference to touhou?
19:18:41 * Madoka-Kaname blinks
19:18:42 <Madoka-Kaname> It's.
19:18:45 <Madoka-Kaname> A really old username.
19:18:50 <Madoka-Kaname> Apparently still my accountname.
19:19:29 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname is reference to Puella magi madoka magica I suppose
19:19:58 <Madoka-Kaname> ^^;
19:28:21 <fizzie> oklopol, being in a university, automatically assumes everyone else is, too.
19:31:09 <itidus21> but oklopol is unable to shake the problem that there aren't 7 billion roles to play in universities
19:31:33 <oklopol> i can shake ANYTHING
19:31:34 <fizzie> There's life outside universities? A weird concept.
19:31:52 <fizzie> Shake that problem!
19:31:52 <oklopol> so today i cited LifeWiki in an academic paper
19:31:59 * itidus21 gives oklopol a big enough shaker
19:33:27 <itidus21> i can't say i'm proud of that last post
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19:34:23 <fizzie> Wasn't it it Archimedes who said that with a big enough shaker, he'd shake the world?
19:34:30 <fizzie> s/it //
19:34:53 <olsner> or ayn rand?
19:35:04 <itidus21> s/s/th/
19:35:27 <itidus21> i can't say i'm proud of that last post either
19:36:19 <oklopol> give me a big enough shaker and a place to sit and i will name an ordered field after myself whenever the naturals are cofinal in it
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19:39:26 <mroman> wtf .
19:41:45 <oklopol> wtf indeed
19:44:08 <itidus21> you can sit here (not gonna recommend actually clicking because its a random place) http://goo.gl/maps/SYuh
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19:50:36 <Sgeo_> Coffeyville
19:50:54 <Sgeo_> Sounds caffinated.
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20:00:25 <blom> fjd
20:00:29 -!- blom has changed nick to oklopol.
20:04:20 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: You bounce a ping pong ball across a table, attempting to make it land in one of the cups on the opponent's side; if you do, the opponent will have to drink that. Or something much like that, anyway. Possibly teams and many cups and other complications, but that's the basic idea. <-- did you speak from personal experience or did you just google it?
20:08:32 <Vorpal> <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: also is 14 young? <-- the "girl" with a white shirt with some green thing on it?
20:08:56 <nortti> Vorpal: that is me
20:09:06 <olsner> Vorpal: the actual game is very close to what fizzie described
20:09:22 <Vorpal> <nortti> I am not interested in ponies <-- riiight, I don't know what http://rand.smar.fi/miitti/misc/Nortti/DSC_0368.JPG is though
20:09:26 <Vorpal> I don't WANT to know
20:09:29 <olsner> but I'm *sure* there are many variants of this game, the only real goal is to drink beer after all
20:10:12 <Vorpal> <nortti> oklopol: I am the one with the cat ears <-- that is kind of scarier than ponies
20:10:22 <oklopol> why is that scary
20:10:46 <Vorpal> I don't quite know
20:11:06 <oklopol> he's obviously embracing his cuteness
20:11:16 <Vorpal> that is scary yes
20:11:22 <oklopol> it is?
20:11:35 <oklopol> you should embrace what you have
20:11:57 <olsner> I guess Vorpal is sad that he hasn't found the courage to embrace yet
20:12:02 <itidus21> the glass
20:12:15 <Vorpal> olsner, XD
20:12:33 <itidus21> i know not what this omen may portend
20:12:41 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, you know what, I think both nortti and elliott are trolling us and they are really both girls. It is the ultimate troll of the "young girls on the internet are actually old males" stereotype.
20:13:46 <mroman> wtf .
20:13:49 <olsner> the old males have left a hole now populated by the young girls on the internet?
20:14:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:14:19 <Taneb> Hello
20:14:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:14:26 <Vorpal> olsner, possibly. Further studies are needed to ascertain if there are still any older males left on the internet
20:14:35 <mroman> Sali Taneb.
20:14:43 <Taneb> "Sali"!?
20:14:46 <Vorpal> olsner, well, apart from oerjan
20:14:48 <Taneb> What kind of language is that!?
20:15:09 <mroman> The one my kind speaks.
20:15:16 <Taneb> The... Swiss?
20:15:19 <mroman> Yes.
20:15:23 <oklopol> mroman: why do you find everything so weird today?
20:15:36 <mroman> This channel attracts weirdness.
20:15:38 <Taneb> Has some clear romance influences
20:15:44 <mroman> But today it's way off limits :)
20:15:54 <Taneb> I just saw the movie Detention
20:15:56 <olsner> mroman: you must be new here :)
20:15:57 <nortti> Vorpal: that picture is one of the people at putkamiitti helping me with putting on those cat ears
20:15:57 <Taneb> It was pretty weird
20:16:17 <oklopol> nortti: do you always wear cat ears?
20:16:18 <Vorpal> nortti, who/what are "putkamiitti"?
20:16:50 <oklopol> Vorpal: ohjelmointiputka, programming jail, is a finnish programming community website place.
20:16:51 <nortti> Vorpal: annual meeting of people on #ohjelmointiputka / ohjelmointiputka.net
20:17:26 <Vorpal> oklopol, "ohjelmointiputka" is a real Finnish word? Wow, you are truly excelling and producing words no one else can pronounce
20:17:36 <nortti> it is
20:17:38 <oklopol> i was actually somewhat active there at nortti's age. i think.
20:17:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not personal experience, but I've heard about it before.
20:17:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
20:17:56 <mroman> Isn't finnish the language with more cases one can count with his hands?
20:18:02 <nortti> oklopol: at the site or at the irc channel?
20:18:06 <oklopol> oh and right, miitti = meet = meeting
20:18:07 <shachaf> Finnish people have unusually many fingers.
20:18:10 <Taneb> mroman, depends how you count
20:18:20 <Vorpal> shachaf, how so?
20:18:22 <Taneb> It's possibly to get at least 1024 on fingers
20:18:34 <mroman> Yeah.
20:18:37 <oklopol> nortti: at the site, i didn't know about irc back then.
20:18:38 <nortti> literal translation of putkamiitti is jail meeting
20:18:39 <olsner> Vorpal: googling for putkamiitti actually finds the same picture nortti posted, linked from the osdev forums
20:18:39 <shachaf> Vorpal: I don't know how.
20:18:44 <Vorpal> olsner, ouch
20:18:45 <mroman> Let's go with 10.
20:18:55 <oklopol> actually i may have just had a modem connection.
20:19:11 <oklopol> so irc would've been expensive
20:19:54 <Vorpal> oh right, pay per connected minute
20:19:55 <Vorpal> urgh
20:20:08 <oklopol> yeah
20:20:13 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
20:20:19 <oklopol> so i guess not *that* active
20:20:30 <fizzie> Finns and fingers: 2011-12-18 00:34:41 <fizzie> "Too many fingers / have I got in my hand / I think there happened a creature / an alien creature" -- paraphrasing some Finnish song lyrics.
20:20:42 <fizzie> (Third time I quote that.)
20:20:57 <fizzie> (And it's always as appropriate.)
20:21:38 <fizzie> The hotel interwebs from my St. Petersburg conference trip were done with dialup. So retro.
20:21:43 <fizzie> Also so expensive.
20:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't have too many fingers.
20:22:01 <Vorpal> hm that was strange, my mobile phone operator sent an SMS warning for thunderstorms in my area, and suggesting I unplug electronics. This happened a few hours ago and I didn't notice the SMS until now. There was never any thunderstorm though (though there were some pretty thunderish clouds.)
20:22:39 <Vorpal> they never sent such SMS before.
20:23:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Then who was SMS?
20:23:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what
20:23:43 <Vorpal> did I typo something?
20:23:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Google 'then who was phone'.
20:25:03 <Vorpal> well I presume it was the operator. I just find it strange they started doing that
20:25:22 <Sgeo_> http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/
20:26:37 <zzo38> I think they should allow "call" instructions in LLVM to be marked volatile. As well as supporting a marker that says it is a standard C99 function. Sometimes it perform C99 optimization but it should not do so, so instead make it a metadata or something like that to indicate if it is a standard C99 function or not.
20:27:04 <Vorpal> ... what is a volatile call?
20:27:24 <Vorpal> can't be reordered relative other instructions?
20:27:30 <Vorpal> that is what I would presume it meant
20:27:49 <zzo38> It would mean, cannot be removed or reordered relative to other volatile instructions
20:27:56 <Vorpal> hm
20:27:57 <zzo38> Same as volatile means for load/store
20:28:03 <Vorpal> fair enough
20:28:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, what would you use it for though?
20:28:31 <Vorpal> I mean do you have something right now where you absolutely need that feature?
20:28:53 <Vorpal> it is not like we are on the LLVM design committee, we can't do anything about it.
20:28:55 <zzo38> Mostly for assembly language calls, although there can be other uses too
20:30:18 * Sgeo_ is vaguely sad that Adobe Atmosphere has been discontinued
20:30:47 <nortti> why?
20:31:19 <Sgeo_> Because I used to like exploring worlds made in Adobe Atmosphere
20:31:28 <Sgeo_> ...wow, it was discontinued in 2004
20:31:32 <Sgeo_> I suddenly feel old
20:32:57 <fizzie> There are so many young girls on #esoteric, that's just natural.
20:34:07 <Vorpal> XD
20:34:35 <nortti> how many?
20:34:55 <fizzie> At least two from what I've heard.
20:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> 3 if you count Madoka-Kaname who's actually female.
20:35:47 <Phantom_Hoover> 4 if tiffany had continued to darken our days.
20:37:16 <Phantom_Hoover> also Taneb looks a bit like a girl so that makes 5
20:37:43 <zzo38> How many of you wears cat ears?
20:38:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I wouldn't put it past Taneb.
20:38:33 <nortti> I wear sometimes so that is at least one
20:38:34 <oklopol> Gregor: do you wear cat ears?
20:38:40 <zzo38> I have no cat ears.
20:38:41 <oklopol> aren't those kinda like hats
20:39:24 <fizzie> We've a pair but I'm not sure they fit me well.
20:39:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Taneb uploaded photos of him(?)self?
20:39:47 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I don't remember seeing a photo of you
20:40:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, why do you have a pair?
20:40:17 <olsner> Vorpal: phantom hoovers don't stick on photos
20:40:19 <Vorpal> is that a Finnish "thing"?
20:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm a vampire, I don't show up in photos.
20:40:29 <Taneb> I've never had the opportunity to wear cat ears
20:40:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: You never know when a pair might come handy. (Actually they're from Disneyland.)
20:41:30 <Madoka-Kaname> Cat ears?
20:41:32 <Madoka-Kaname> Sounds fun
20:41:33 <ais523> wow, Microsoft made a loss last quarter
20:41:33 <fizzie> Taneb: Have you had Spock ears?
20:41:37 <Taneb> No
20:42:01 <Taneb> I cannot recall ever having worn false ears, Spock, cat, or otherwise
20:42:04 <fizzie> Cat ears, car eats.
20:42:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Owning such a thing would make you a FILTHY ELF SYMPATHISER who must be HOUNDED FROM SOCIETY
20:42:26 <Taneb> Karkat eats ears?
20:42:37 <fizzie> There was a cat on a car in a backyard I walked past the other day.
20:42:59 <fizzie> I'd have taken a picture, but the house's occupant just walked out, so it would've felt a bit impolite.
20:43:52 <fizzie> I just heard we actually also have a pair of hobbit ears, and a pair of bunny ears. So we're well stocked in the ears department.
20:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Hobbit ears?
20:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought hobbits just have people ears.
20:45:00 <Vorpal> <ais523> wow, Microsoft made a loss last quarter <-- how large?
20:45:01 <fizzie> Google image search suggests they're kinda sharp-cornery but not quite as pointy as elf ears.
20:45:19 <oklopol> you mean the losses=
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20:45:22 <oklopol> ?
20:45:25 <fizzie> See http://www.wetanz.com/assets/Uploads/lotrearsfrodoblrg.jpg
20:45:59 <Vorpal> <fizzie> I just heard we actually also have a pair of hobbit ears, and a pair of bunny ears. So we're well stocked in the ears department. <-- why? from where?
20:46:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose just in case, if we needed ears.
20:46:22 <Vorpal> huh
20:46:26 <fizzie> Maybe you hear better with some?
20:46:56 <fizzie> Even the shape of the outer ear actually makes quite a difference in terms of what the signals look like.
20:47:08 <fizzie> So they're not quite just superfluous flabs of meat.
20:47:26 <fizzie> I don't suppose the ears we have have been designed with that in mind though.
20:47:32 <fizzie> It's more likely it's an aesthetic thing.
20:47:48 <olsner> so, apparently the finns have an obsession with ears... do you collect them in buckets too?
20:48:14 <Vorpal> olsner, why buckets specifically?
20:48:27 <Vorpal> anyway buckets are just like XXL ears
20:49:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you want details, apparently the bunny ears were for a may day thing ("May Day is known as Vappu, from the Swedish term. This is a public holiday that is the only carnival-style street festivity in the country. People young and old, particularly students, party outside, picnic and wear caps or other decorative clothing.") and the hobbit ears just because.
20:49:19 <nortti> btw who is tiffany?
20:49:40 <fizzie> Was that one of elliott's many girlfriends? I've lost track of them.
20:52:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm okay
20:52:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't know what Swedish term that is
20:52:39 <Vorpal> I don't think we do that stuff over here
20:52:54 <olsner> maybe he means valborg
20:52:57 <Vorpal> hm
20:53:05 <fizzie> Valborgsmässoafton.
20:53:06 <fizzie> Yes.
20:53:15 <Vorpal> olsner, well I never seen anyone wear bunny ears on such occasions
20:53:31 <olsner> fizzie: the word "Vappu" is not very similar :)
20:53:54 <fizzie> olsner: Matches /^va/.
20:54:01 <fizzie> Well, /^va/i anyway.
20:54:37 <fizzie> And May Day celebrations vary quite a lot from one country to another, possibly even more than for average public holidays.
20:54:48 <fizzie> In Finland it seems to be mostly about drinking.
20:55:12 <olsner> that matches the swedish version very well
20:55:14 <fizzie> And the student caps.
20:55:23 <Vorpal> olsner, first of may is generally the left wing parties having large demonstrations here though
20:55:34 <Vorpal> it is the day before that is about drinking for some
20:55:36 <fizzie> I believe we've adopted our cap traditions from you guys.
20:56:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mashed together a group of separate traditions into a single one?
20:56:08 <Vorpal> heathens ;)
20:56:14 <fizzie> Well, it's the day before when we celebrate, too. Though they do have some left-leaning things also on that day.
20:56:22 <ais523> oklopol: loss = negative profit
20:56:50 <Vorpal> ais523, how much loss?
20:57:01 <Vorpal> for MS
20:57:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: "The Uppsala cap is traditionally only worn only in summer, from Walpurgis Night until the end of September. In Lund, the white cap is also donned at Walpurgis and taken off in the fall, but students can exchange it for a winter variant with a dark blue crown during the rest of the year." It sounds like you have the caps related to that day too, so I'm not sure what you're complaining ...
20:57:10 <fizzie> ... about.
20:57:15 <ais523> Vorpal: news report doesn't say, trying to look it up now
20:57:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, "Walpurgis"?
20:57:21 <Vorpal> ais523, ah
20:57:25 <ais523> $492 million
20:57:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: The English word for it.
20:57:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
20:57:37 <Vorpal> ais523, for MS that isn't a lot
20:57:51 <ais523> apparently it paid $6.3 million for a company which turned out to be worth only $100,000
20:57:56 <ais523> according to their accountants, at least
20:58:04 <ais523> so perhaps it's a complex tax dodge more than anything else
20:58:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, also note traditionally. No one ever wears the student cap thingy except during "studenten" (however you translate that) and maybe a couple of more times these days
20:58:43 <Vorpal> it is not an everyday headwear
20:59:01 <Vorpal> ais523, huh, which company is that
20:59:11 <Vorpal> or was rather
20:59:11 <ais523> Vorpal: "graduation", perhaps? (graduation = a ceremony where students who've passed their exams are officially made into bachelors/masters/doctors)
20:59:28 <Vorpal> ais523, err, it is like the graduation out of high school
20:59:29 <ais523> and aQuantive
20:59:33 <Vorpal> before you start university
20:59:35 <olsner> Vorpal: you may be confused about the two different kinds of student caps
20:59:37 <ais523> who I've never heard of
20:59:44 <Vorpal> olsner, there is more than one?
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20:59:50 <Vorpal> ais523, what did they do?
21:00:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's not everyday here either, but since May Day is the first day when you "can" wear it, it's commonly worn then. (Not that everyone bothers.)
21:00:24 -!- glogbackup has joined.
21:00:27 <olsner> there would be at least three I think, one for the high school students graduation, one for university students (summer cap), and that winter cap
21:00:30 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:00:44 <Vorpal> olsner, hm, I never seen those other two
21:01:07 <olsner> but fwiw, in this city the university students all use the blue cap, and seem to wear it whenever they want to
21:01:15 <fizzie> We don't have winter variants. But on May Day, the high school graduates wear their cap, while university students from places that do the cap thing wear theirs.
21:01:29 <fizzie> Except I haven't managed to bother getting mine yet.
21:01:55 <oklopol> "ais523 oklopol: loss = negative profit" i was referring to "Google image search suggests they're kinda sharp-cornery but not quite as pointy as elf ears."
21:02:05 <oklopol> which losses could totally be
21:02:09 <fizzie> It has a kind of a tassel.
21:02:55 <olsner> most people don't bother, mostly because it involves tying around hundreds of knots on small pieces of string making up the tuft
21:02:58 <Vorpal> olsner, which city is that?
21:03:15 -!- elliott__ has joined.
21:03:20 <elliott__> just realised i was in here for a reason
21:03:21 <olsner> Vorpal: Linköping
21:03:21 <fizzie> Looks like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/TFteknolog.jpg
21:03:52 -!- mroman has left.
21:03:52 <oklopol> is that hat porn
21:04:06 -!- glogbackup has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:04:12 <elliott__> maybe i can just ignore everyone in the channel except for join/parts
21:04:17 <elliott__> is that possible
21:04:18 <elliott__> fizzie?
21:04:19 <fizzie> oklopol: I would assume you've seen a teekkarilakki before.
21:04:20 <elliott__> i'm using xchat
21:05:20 <fizzie> elliott__: I think that should be possible, but you'll need to look up the /ignore syntax yourself. Anyway, I seem to recall it had a "level" style argument, and then it does wildcards (maybe regexps too) so you can make it match everyone.
21:05:21 <Vorpal> olsner, ah
21:05:25 <zzo38> Does the user mode +D do that, or does it ignore join/parts too?
21:05:45 <elliott__> fizzie: That sounds annoying.
21:05:49 <Vorpal> olsner, I hate either Linköping or Lindköping. I haven't decided which one yet. But I keep confusing their names
21:05:53 <elliott__> Nobody say anything stupid, OK?
21:05:58 <elliott__> Thta's probaly t he simplest solut ion
21:06:03 <elliott__> ion: Hey.
21:06:43 <olsner> Vorpal: lindköping doesn't exist
21:07:00 <elliott__> olsner: What's up?
21:07:09 <olsner> elliott__: vacation!
21:07:11 <Vorpal> olsner, wut.
21:07:26 <oklopol> fizzie: perhaps not
21:07:27 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure I seen that written in many places
21:07:31 <olsner> Vorpal: you may be confusing it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidköping
21:07:37 <Vorpal> olsner, oh right
21:07:43 <elliott__> olsner: How's your OS?
21:07:57 <oklopol> my os are great
21:07:58 <oklopol> o
21:07:58 <oklopol> o
21:07:58 <oklopol> o
21:08:01 <olsner> elliott__: last time I checked it was doing message passing between processes
21:08:16 <nortti> olsner: is it available anywhere?
21:08:17 <Vorpal> olsner, I'm glad there isn't a lindköping as well then, that would be even more confusing
21:08:17 <fizzie> Well perhaps you should CATCH IT THEN aha ah haha haa.
21:08:32 <elliott__> olsner: Ah, I see, it is a very backwards design. In @ we do not have message passing or processes. In fact @ does not even do *anything*!
21:08:54 <Vorpal> elliott__, so what makes it go?
21:08:56 <olsner> does @ exist?
21:09:00 <elliott__> Vorpal: Who says it goes?
21:09:19 <fizzie> Do you have Prince @ in a can? (I think a joke goes like this.)
21:09:22 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:09:25 <Vorpal> oh okay, I guess if that is not in your feature list you shouldn't have any issues
21:09:26 <nortti> elliott__: how do you do anything with @ ?
21:09:33 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
21:09:34 <elliott__> nortti: Why would you want to?
21:10:22 <elliott__> olsner: Of course not.
21:10:32 <nortti> well even I am aiming to make my bytecode kernel based OS somewhat usable
21:10:40 <olsner> I think I was working on the VM stuff when I realized there was nowhere the VM code could get memory from to map it into address spaces, so I had to do side-track into message passing
21:11:41 <nortti> olsner: so it is protected address space OS?
21:11:45 <olsner> yes
21:12:21 <olsner> microkernel:ish, for every thing I do it ends up closer and closer to just being an L4 clone
21:12:36 <elliott__> LYou know L4 is bad because it has features. @ doesn't have those.
21:12:39 <elliott__> *-L
21:12:46 <nortti> ok. my os is shared address space
21:13:20 <nortti> (protection is done in the bytecode interpreter
21:13:22 <nortti> )
21:13:43 <olsner> elliott__: L4 is also bad because it already exists, and me making a worse version of L4 will not help anyone :)
21:13:44 <elliott__> nortti: That's just like @ except worse.
21:13:57 <elliott__> With @ everything runs in ring 0 but also it does not use an interpreter!
21:14:06 <nortti> but why?
21:14:12 <elliott__> Because it's better.
21:14:18 <Vorpal> nortti, not a JIT?
21:14:28 <elliott__> Even Vorpal knows @'s design is great.
21:14:41 <Vorpal> elliott__, to be frank I don't remember the design of @ any longer
21:14:47 <Vorpal> I guess it was forgettable ;P
21:15:06 <elliott__> Vorpal: Wow you suck.
21:15:08 <elliott__> Windows user.
21:15:12 <nortti> Vorpal: not currently. it is split to asmkernel (in native code) and forthkernel (in bytecode). asmkernel contains the bytocede interpreter
21:15:21 <Vorpal> elliott__, not really, currently I'm on all Linux
21:15:23 <Taneb> @ is a thing that still doesn't exist yet?
21:15:28 <Vorpal> elliott__, I only dual boot once in a while
21:15:46 <nortti> elliott__: is the design of @ available somewhere?
21:15:55 <Taneb> I seem to remember it didn't have applications or something
21:15:56 <ais523> <Vorpal> ais523, what did they do? <--- advertising, it seems
21:15:57 <Vorpal> nortti, the logs of this channel
21:16:01 <Vorpal> ais523, heh
21:16:07 <nortti> Vorpal: when?
21:16:14 <elliott__> nortti: Yes, @'s design is available in elliott__.
21:16:24 -!- soundnfury has joined.
21:16:26 <zzo38> Everything runs in ring 0 and not use an interpreter? Does it do security? The only way I can think to make such a thing secure against processes damaging other processes and interfering with debuggers and so on, is to build the hardware around that idea.
21:16:33 <Taneb> (that's a building in Corbridge)
21:17:00 <elliott__> Taneb: *You're* a building in Corbridge.
21:17:03 <ais523> zzo38: it works by only running things that have been compiled via a compiler that's guaranteed not to produce unsafe code
21:17:33 <elliott__> (FSVO guaranteed.)
21:17:44 <elliott__> (Actually there are some fairly good ways to run untrusted native code in an @ model safely.)
21:17:54 <Taneb> elliott__, is nortti a city in Espoo?)
21:17:58 <elliott__> (But they get you back something close to the overhead that standard OSes have for syscalls, though.)
21:18:13 <elliott__> (The main performance advantage @ gets is that syscalls are free.)
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21:18:25 <soundnfury> ais523: I'm reminded of dmr's version of the cc
21:18:25 <fizzie> Taneb: Kauniainen is a city in Espoo (which is also a city).
21:18:38 <soundnfury> I think it was dmr, anyway
21:18:39 <Taneb> Goodnight, everyone
21:18:40 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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21:18:56 <elliott__> soundnfury: are you referring to Reflections on Trusting Trust?
21:19:01 <soundnfury> I think so
21:19:10 <soundnfury> the cc that inserted a backdoor when compiling 'login', and inserted the backdoor insertion code when compiling itself
21:19:20 <ais523> trusting-trust attacks are really really fragile
21:19:36 <ais523> defeated by a change to the relevant code in the compiler, or by the use of a different compiler
21:19:50 <soundnfury> yeah, but it's still a really cute idea
21:19:56 <elliott__> (also they're counterable, although the process is so involved that nobody would bother)
21:20:02 <elliott__> but yes, it is a beautiful trick
21:20:12 <ais523> and possibly even noticeable via automated testing, if an old and new versions of the compiler are generating different code
21:20:16 <soundnfury> it is, to put it simply, a hack
21:20:23 <ais523> and the process is only involved if you're trying to get 100% security
21:20:35 <ais523> simply compiling it with a different compiler is good enough against all attacks that don't specifically deal with that
21:20:59 <Vorpal> ais523, I wonder if they could be made somewhat resilient to such things though. Maybe by patching the OS itself rather than the compiler, having it insert the relevant code when it detects the kernel is being compiled and so on
21:21:19 <zzo38> soundnfury: I have read about that; and then I thought about writing a BASIC compiler in C, and then a C compiler in BASIC, and then recompile the C compiler with that and then recompile 'login'
21:21:24 <soundnfury> what would be really fun would be a retrovirus - if you know of a compiler bug that allows you to mangle the compiler's intermediate representation by feeding it suitably-crafted input
21:21:28 <ais523> the problem is that "relevant code" requires you to know what the produced code from a specific binary is, in every possible compiler
21:21:42 -!- glogbackup has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:21:58 <Vorpal> ais523, that could even handle patching kernel images being copied into the system after having been compiled elsewhere to some degree. Sure you can break that still.
21:22:09 <ais523> how do you detect something's a compiled version of login(8)?
21:22:46 <ais523> and wher the bit in the code that does validation is?
21:22:58 <Vorpal> ais523, if you target the kernel I think it is easier to do such detection. You could make the kernel detect if anyone put something like a bzImage into /boot for example and patch it on the fly at that point.
21:22:59 <soundnfury> if it calls all of some set of syscalls it might be detectable
21:23:20 <soundnfury> login(8) presumably calls getpwd() and friends and some kind of crypt function, what else must it call?
21:23:24 <Vorpal> ais523, no need to touch the compiler at all even. A somewhat different attack sure
21:23:29 <Vorpal> similar though
21:23:49 * soundnfury suddenly loses interest
21:23:59 <Vorpal> soundnfury, I suspect it calls pam on modern systems
21:24:04 <elliott__> for what it's worth @'s design has flaws not shared by unix and i do not believe they are so irrelevant as in my naive youth
21:24:06 <ais523> Vorpal: what patch do you use, though?
21:24:11 <elliott__> but unix is still a bad design and @ has some good points to it
21:24:18 <ais523> you can't write a kernel patch that causes logins with a particular username/password to succeed
21:24:32 <ais523> without knowing the details of login
21:24:55 <zzo38> ais523: Making everything compiled using a compiler that's guaranteed not to produce unsafe code, is one way. But I also was building some hardware, some ideas, although it may not be x86 (it may be ARM), everything runs in ring 0 and not use an interpreter, although the memory management unit and other hardware is designed to make it secure, ...
21:25:37 <Vorpal> ais523, hm true
21:25:55 <nortti> zzo38: but wouldn't the code be able to disable the security as it runs in ring 0?
21:25:58 <zzo38> ... so that, for example, the software cannot damage the hardware, cannot load a virus, cannot corrupt the system (much of which is stored in ROM anyways), cannot make arbitrary reads or jumps into the BIOS (it must use NMI to access the BIOS), etc
21:26:13 <Vorpal> ais523, you could do stuff like making a certain key combo on the terminal perform something
21:26:35 <ion> elliott______________: hai
21:26:40 <nortti> zzo38: but how could it prevent apps from stomping on each other's memory
21:26:42 <Vorpal> ais523, such as starting sh as root
21:26:47 <zzo38> nortti: No, because the hardware which controls the security would trigger NMIs and the NMI is locked to the BIOS.
21:26:56 <elliott__> ion: declare your allegiance to 41qys-crawl
21:27:52 <zzo38> nortti: It is a single-tasking system, the only other tasks that can run are the BIOS and a debugger. The debugger can access everything, but the memory management unit prevents it from being accessed by the main task, so it can only be accessed by NMI.
21:28:05 <nortti> oh
21:28:33 <ion> NEVER!
21:28:34 <zzo38> (However, this also means, you always need to trigger NMI whenever you want to make a BIOS call; this should be OK since the program would not need to normally make a lot of BIOS calls)
21:28:47 <elliott__> ion: do it
21:31:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, what use is a single task system these days?
21:31:33 <nortti> Vorpal: well DOS is still usable
21:31:46 <elliott__> fsvo
21:32:05 <nortti> fsvo?
21:32:36 <Gregor> Real-time systems are sometimes single task.
21:32:49 <zzo38> But even though the BIOS will be slow due to this and other checks the BIOS makes when being called (although like I said it would not need to be called many times in one second or anything like that), it also means that if the user upgrades the BIOS ROM, the program cannot refuse to run just because the serial number is different or because the user modified the BIOS to break the copy protection of the program, or whatever other reason.
21:33:42 <zzo38> Another advantage of single-task is that no relocatable binaries are needed, and the memory image can just be saved to disk and continued later on if you wanted to.
21:33:49 <elliott__> fsvo.
21:33:57 <Vorpal> nortti, for what tasks?
21:34:06 <Vorpal> nortti, and fsvo means "for some values of"
21:34:08 <zzo38> And, yes, it is real-time, too.
21:34:37 <nortti> Vorpal: well it has TCP/IP stack, links2 port and gcc
21:34:56 <Vorpal> nortti, right?
21:35:08 <Vorpal> nortti, that is indeed fsvo
21:37:24 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:38:07 <zzo38> This hardware and BIOS is designed for many things, one of which is to thwart copy protection.
21:38:43 <nortti> how?
21:38:50 <zzo38> Because copy protection and DRM is also considered a kind of malware.
21:39:08 <zzo38> nortti: Haven't I already described it?
21:39:15 <nortti> oh. that one
21:39:38 <nortti> I still have no idea how it prevents malware from running btw
21:40:23 <Vorpal> your design sounds like it would simplify DRM
21:40:41 <Vorpal> by the hardware manufacturer that is
21:41:03 <zzo38> The software cannot easily just tell the user to install that software's BIOS or whatever since that would require the user to open up the computer and move some jumpers.
21:41:18 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, we protect against that with trademarks.
21:41:39 <zzo38> As well as keeping the hardware design 100% open.
21:42:29 <zzo38> If anyone building a clone of our system includes DRM but says it is compatible anyways, we can sue them for trademark violation.
21:42:59 <nortti> but how does it prevent DRM in user software?
21:43:36 <zzo38> That is part of what the BIOS does; haven't I explained that already?
21:44:11 -!- MSleep has changed nick to MDude.
21:44:38 <nortti> yes but I have no idea how you'd break compatibility with DRM'd software withou breaking compatibilyti with everything else
21:45:06 <zzo38> nortti: It already does break compatibility with everything else that is not specifically designed for this computer (unless you use an emulator).
21:45:50 <nortti> zzo38: yes but I mean when someone writes DRM'd software for it
21:45:55 <zzo38> The debugger can only be given by root permissions, and for the user to even have root permissions requires moving jumpers, which would make it difficult for a third party software vendor to tell the user to move them, especially if there is a warning in the case.
21:46:19 <zzo38> nortti: The idea is that they would find that difficult to do.
21:46:28 <nortti> okay
21:46:50 <nortti> what about software calling home for verification?
21:47:32 <MDude> I was tihnking it would be neat to have a system sort of liek that, only instead of moving jumpers, you'd have the operating system in a special slot that only allows reading.
21:47:39 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, we protect against that with trademarks. <-- ?
21:47:39 <Vorpal> what
21:48:17 <MDude> So to change it you'd need to have a second drive, wite the new vesion to that and physically swap them.
21:48:24 <Vorpal> <zzo38> The debugger can only be given by root permissions, and for the user to even have root permissions requires moving jumpers, which would make it difficult for a third party software vendor to tell the user to move them, especially if there is a warning in the case. <-- so a hardware vendor implementing this platform could just remove said jumpers from the retail version
21:48:26 <Vorpal> instant DRM
21:48:36 <Vorpal> just as bad as iphone
21:49:15 <zzo38> nortti: Although that is not prevented, you could crack the security without too much difficulty once it has been verified once, by capturing the packets and record the memory, and then modify the BIOS to pretend about those thing. In addition, if they claimed that their software was compatible with our system if they used that kind of verification, we would sue them for trademark violation.
21:49:22 <MDude> But they could already do something like that by basing their product on the iphone.
21:50:02 <MDude> Is claims of compatibility really a violation of trademark?
21:50:03 <zzo38> Vorpal: If they did that, they would be sued for trademark violation if it is said to be compatible anyways; since removing those jumpers would automatically make their version considered imcompatible.
21:50:30 <elliott__> i do not think trademarks work that way.
21:50:34 <nortti> zzo38: what if laws say that is unlawful?
21:50:49 <zzo38> nortti: Say what is unlawful?
21:50:55 <MDude> I tihnk some companies have tried that on the grounds that compatability somehow implies endoresment.
21:51:06 <nortti> zzo38: cracking the DRM
21:51:44 <MDude> SO you would have DRM specifically to block other DRM from being used?
21:51:52 <zzo38> nortti: Well, if anyone sues someone for cracking the DRM on their software on my system, we can countersue them for trademark violation.
21:52:12 <zzo38> MDude: No, it is completely open source, the BIOS and hardware is completely GNU GPL'd v3 or later version.
21:52:36 <MDude> But how is trademark involved?
21:52:55 <zzo38> Anyone can add DRM to the BIOS without violating copyright (although you may violate trademark from doing so), but then someone can remove them without being arrested.
21:54:48 <zzo38> MDude: Well, if they do not use the trademark then the software is not endorsed, so I can include with the system the warning message that says, this is not a real program! They are trying to trick you!
21:56:47 <zzo38> Your warranty will be voided! The computer might explode!
22:01:35 <zzo38> If a hardware manufacturer *did* build it without those jumpers, you can just purchase from another manufacturer or add those jumpers yourself. If they try to modify the BIOS and that stuff to protect us from doing that, then we can figure them out to circumvent them, from the source-codes, and our own system will still work. If they don't let you to do that, then they can be sued for copyright violation.
22:02:43 <zzo38> We ensure there is no "extra room" that someone can add these antifeatures in a rewritten clone of their own design.
22:03:15 <zzo38> Now do you understand???
22:03:41 <elliott__> no
22:04:05 <nortti> uuh. sorry but that isn't really my definition of open/free platform
22:04:34 <Vorpal> <MDude> SO you would have DRM specifically to block other DRM from being used? <-- sounds like that definitely
22:04:46 <Vorpal> anyway I would hate a a single task system for daily use
22:05:23 <Vorpal> "<zzo38> Your warranty will be voided! The computer might explode!" <-- they could just remove said message
22:06:12 <nortti> if they couldn't why not go straight for apple style "we control your device and apps you have" aproach
22:06:30 <Vorpal> bbl
22:10:42 <zzo38> They could remove the message if they are a hardware manufacturer; if they are a software manufacturer then they can't because it is part of the system manual.
22:11:12 <nortti> umh. how does that work?
22:12:28 <zzo38> It is open/free since all the design and everything being GNU GPL v3 or later version licensed, and there is no requirement that we approve the software if it is put on there; they simply are not allowed to claim we approved it when in fact we have not done so.
22:12:32 -!- nooga has joined.
22:12:49 <zzo38> And again, even if it is not approved, it cannot affect other parts of the system other than itself anyways.
22:12:56 <nortti> GPLv3. ugh
22:13:32 <zzo38> That is, I am main hardware manufacturer so anyone else is not considered endorsed unless we endorse them!
22:14:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:14:31 <elliott__> basically your system is immune to drm because you define any system with drm to not be your system any more
22:14:32 <zzo38> I am not saying the hardware has DRM, it is simply having security similar to that a UNIX kernel might have, but at the hardware level.
22:15:07 <zzo38> elliott__: Well, sort of.
22:16:07 -!- oerjan has set topic: CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | bandanas not welcome unless they bring monkeys | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
22:17:42 * oerjan realizes the topic will nearly always be inaccurate in some time zone
22:19:07 <zzo38> If someone wanted to include our logo on the DVD case of their software, they would first need to ask me to approve it. And then they follow some of these requirements (some are absolute while others are just recommendations), we assign them a licensee code, software code, etc, and figure out the checksum, and include it in our database, and then they can use our logo.
22:19:15 <oerjan> <Vorpal> olsner, well, apart from oerjan <-- i can confirm i am not a young girl. *teehee*
22:20:23 <nortti> zzo38: so it is kinda like how apple does it. they restrict what you are allowed to do with your own device if they don't like it
22:21:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, indeed
22:21:48 <zzo38> nortti: No they don't. You can do whatever you want with your own device, including to run unapproved software. This approval is not required to make the software run.
22:22:15 <zzo38> And the owner of the device can even modify the hardware and software and instructions for doing so are included in the manual, too.
22:22:40 <zzo38> Unlike Apple, approval is not mandatory, but it is recommended.
22:22:53 <itidus21> they can't take away your electrons though
22:23:30 <nortti> zzo38: oh. but if approval is not mandatory you can't stop DRM'd code running platform
22:24:10 <zzo38> nortti: Yes, that is true. It is impossible to completely stop it; but some kinds of DRM are just too difficult to implement because of the way the hardware is wired up.
22:24:26 <nortti> okay
22:24:33 <zzo38> And many of the other kinds become very easy to crack.
22:25:02 <nortti> but the we run to DMCA like bullshit
22:25:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:26:05 * itidus21 finds that the ratio of bulls to bullshit in the world is strangely askew.
22:26:39 <nortti> what do you mean?
22:26:52 <itidus21> i mean theres more bullshit than there is bulls to produce it
22:27:17 <elliott__> did you know bulls shit more than once in their life
22:27:31 <nortti> well bulls can produce large amounts of shit
22:27:42 <itidus21> ok.. fine
22:28:00 <itidus21> now that i've had my fun, back to the topic
22:28:18 <elliott__> what topic
22:28:19 <zzo38> What is "the we run to DMCA like bullshit"?
22:28:36 <itidus21> ^then we run to DMCA-like bullshit
22:29:04 <nortti> zzo38: DMCA makes it illegal to break DRM. also s/the/then/
22:29:16 <itidus21> but, bullshit is registered at the ministry of funny walks
22:29:20 <zzo38> You won't be arrested unless you are caught, though.
22:29:31 <elliott__> nortti: I don't think that is true.
22:30:02 <elliott__> From a quick Google, see this ruling: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/07/apple-loses-big-in-drm-ruling-jailbreaks-are-fair-use/ http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/07/25/court.says.cracking.drm.ok.if.purpose.is.legal/
22:30:28 <zzo38> And the optional full drive encryption and RAM scrambling features and so on can make it much more difficult to get caught.
22:31:58 <pikhq> elliott__: It makes it a crime to circumvent any "access-control technology", except when the Library of Congress grants an exception...
22:32:37 <pikhq> elliott__: Though that second thing you linked at could be valuable precedent.
22:33:12 <zzo38> Anyway this computer is made in Canada. It can be used in any country you want, subject to their laws, but it is made in Canada, so the Canadian laws apply to the trademark approval process.
22:33:21 <pikhq> Unfortunately, you'd almost certainly get sued if you tried.
22:33:32 <nortti> zzo38: have you heard of c-11?
22:33:39 <zzo38> nortti: Yes I have heard of it.
22:33:54 <zzo38> I don't know if they approve it though.
22:34:09 <nortti> zzo38: I has already passed
22:34:09 <pikhq> In fact, because that decision was made at a relatively low level, it could almost certainly be overturned.
22:34:41 <pikhq> elliott__: Worse still, it makes it a crime to violate anything that could plausibly be interpreted as an *attempt* to prevent copying...
22:34:50 <pikhq> elliott__: ROT13, for instance.
22:35:12 <zzo38> pikhq: Then what about double-ROT13 (i.e. the identity function)?
22:35:37 <zzo38> nortti: Well, we try to fight against such stupid laws.
22:35:39 <nortti> or what about 3ROT13?
22:35:51 <nortti> zzo38: you are canadian?
22:36:01 <zzo38> nortti: Yes.
22:36:07 <pikhq> (that's not a reductio ad absurdum, that's a god damned *case*. An early ebook "DRM" scheme was ROT13, I shit you not.)
22:36:24 <nortti> zzo38: are you supporter or member of canadian pirate party?
22:37:01 <zzo38> nortti: Not officially.
22:37:40 <nortti> pikhq: what?
22:37:54 <nortti> pikhq: in what system?
22:45:19 -!- guillaumemorgan has joined.
22:45:44 -!- guillaumemorgan has left.
22:45:45 <elliott__> `welcome gau
22:45:48 <elliott__> fuk u
22:45:49 <HackEgo> gau: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:46:57 <oerjan> the star trek lovers here might like this little story http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/120717.html
22:47:13 <oerjan> (or alternatively, hate it with a passion.)
22:47:57 <nortti> does anyone of you have any experience with any
22:48:00 <oerjan> elliott__: gau doesn't tab complete to guillaumemorgan in any case
22:48:11 <nortti> +32 bit microcontrollers
22:48:12 <elliott__> it was a typo
22:48:20 <elliott__> i just hit enter b/c its easier than ctrl+a del
22:48:37 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott__> i just hit enter b/c its easier than ctrl+a del
22:48:41 <HackEgo> 850) <elliott__> i just hit enter b/c its easier than ctrl+a del
22:48:52 <nortti> elliott__: what about ^u ?
22:49:39 <nortti> elliott__: oh. that wasn't a screen shortcut
22:49:52 <elliott__> i don't have my gtk keybindings set to emacs
22:50:02 <elliott__> so ctrl+u does nothing
22:50:11 <nortti> ok
22:50:33 <elliott__> oerjan: i wonder if you can track the degeneration in my typing and language w/ the qdb
22:50:42 <quintopia> what about down?
22:50:48 <quintopia> down clears my line
22:50:50 <elliott__> quintopia: also does nothing when on the last line
22:50:52 <oerjan> PERHAPS
22:50:57 <elliott__> i think that's more consistent
22:51:08 <elliott__> nortti: i like xchat
22:51:10 <elliott__> well, it is ok, at least
22:51:15 <nortti> quintopia: are you using irssi?
22:51:27 <nortti> elliott__: is xchat graphical?
22:51:35 <quintopia> nortti: ayuh
22:51:55 <elliott__> nortti: "graphical" is a misnomer
22:52:01 <elliott__> irssi has a "graphical" interface
22:52:17 <elliott__> it uses the ncurses toolkit, which has only a rather hacky output backend based on ancient terminals
22:52:32 <elliott__> xchat is also graphical, it uses gtk, which has only a rather hacky output backend based on ancient x11...
22:52:47 <nortti> elliott__: so xchat can't be run on console?
22:52:56 <elliott__> (a shell, for instance, is non-graphical, rather it is a linguistic interface, whether you implement it with vt100 or gtk or whatever)
22:53:06 <elliott__> nortti: i am sure there is a way to get gtk to output to framebuffer.
22:53:16 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:53:30 <oerjan> if your irc client doesn't do 3d animations then it's rather hacky, kids
22:55:07 <quintopia> my irc cliennt buys me coffee
22:55:20 <elliott__> oerjan: did you play nethack in the 90s. you seem like the kind of person who would have
22:55:26 <oerjan> no
22:55:28 <nortti> quintopia: does it do htcpcp?
22:55:39 <elliott__> oerjan: odd
22:55:49 <oerjan> i played a bit of mud
22:55:54 <quintopia> that sounds like a mobile phone app for hallcinogens nortti
22:56:17 <nortti> quintopia: it is hypertext coffee pot control protocol
22:56:35 <quintopia> pfffft no
22:56:44 <elliott__> i wonder what pcp is like
22:56:46 <elliott__> hey kmc!!!!
22:56:51 <elliott__> kmc "drugs" kmc
22:57:01 <quintopia> it makes starbucks-quality iced coffee get delivered to my cd drive
22:59:05 -!- david_werecat has joined.
23:01:12 <elliott__> Obsession of the man is one of the most unknown and frightful phenomena, which stops evolutionary development of the man and brings its to full spiritual (and often to physical) death. The book and website "Obsession as a catastrophe" (http://en.odkk.ru) created by the group of not indifferent to this theme people. The materials was created on the personal practical experience of studying of the theme basing on the theory from the remarkable bo
23:01:12 <elliott__> oks of Blavatskaya E.P, Roerich H.I., Roerich N.K., Abramov B.N., Uranov N. and other names. The purpose of the creating of the book is necessity to pay attention of people on this terrible phenomenon for the conscious counteraction to it.
23:01:20 <elliott__> your daily dose of obsession of the man
23:01:33 <elliott__> http://en.odkk.ru/aura/5b_en.gif this image is so good
23:01:47 <quintopia> who godwinned this channel?
23:02:03 <nortti> the damn natzies
23:02:05 <oerjan> quintopia: oklopol
23:02:06 -!- pumpkin has joined.
23:02:21 <nortti> oerjan: when?
23:02:32 <oerjan> some time yesterday
23:02:34 <oklopol> elliott was being a nazi
23:02:47 <oerjan> also just now
23:02:55 <oklopol> i - in a very gentlemanitan way - pointed this out to him.
23:03:07 <oerjan> *gentlemanitarian
23:04:05 -!- elliott__ has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:04:34 <oerjan> succinct
23:05:27 <quintopia> i like it
23:05:41 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:05:56 <elliott__> such happens whenever the topic exceeds maximum levels of stupidity
23:06:16 <oerjan> unless elliott__ isn't here, naturally.
23:06:26 <oerjan> then we reach the singularity instead.
23:06:28 <quintopia> i suspect it's like godwin's law
23:06:53 <quintopia> in that making it stupid just so it can be reverted to this form invalidates the process
23:07:16 <oklopol> what was the previous one?
23:08:00 <oerjan> CHANNEL CURRENTLY CLOSED DUE TO GODWINNING (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH GOD WINNING) | last topic change: today | bandanas not welcome unless they bring monkeys | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/
23:08:42 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to oqijwoij.
23:08:47 -!- oqijwoij has changed nick to elliott__.
23:08:50 <elliott__> hi
23:08:59 <shachaf> elliott__: What are you doing in my channel?
23:09:21 <zzo38> shachaf: *Your* channel? I thought it was oqijwoij's channel!
23:10:14 <shachaf> elliott__: Guess what language I'm writing in!
23:10:33 <shachaf> Hint: It starts with "Java" and ends with "ava".
23:10:46 <oerjan> javaava, the best language
23:11:06 <shachaf> oerjan: It's actually JavaScriptava. Stop confusing the two!
23:11:07 <zzo38> Or perhaps it is Javava or Java
23:11:19 <zzo38> Or JavaScriptava
23:11:43 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:11:48 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
23:12:29 <shachaf> I think Java is a low-level language. :-(
23:13:26 <copumpkin> yup
23:14:56 <zzo38> I wrote a back story of my Dungeons&Dragons character.
23:16:44 <shachaf> copumpkin: Sometimes I think Haskell is a low-level language too.
23:16:50 <copumpkin> yup
23:16:53 <shachaf> But maybe it's a high-level language with low-level libraries.
23:17:12 <shachaf> (I guess that could apply to Java too. How do people live with this?!)
23:23:45 <zzo38> Is BLISS a high or low language? The documentation says high.
23:25:38 <nortti_> is FORTH high or low?
23:28:54 <zzo38> I think it can be both, as far as I can tell.
23:29:32 <oerjan> first you have to implement monads in forth, duh
23:29:46 <oerjan> (then zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms)
23:31:54 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:32:17 <zzo38> What are zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms?
23:33:48 <pikhq> nortti_: Forth is profoundly low-level, but with good abstraction facilities.
23:34:13 <nortti_> ok
23:35:11 <oerjan> zzo38: a generalized recursion scheme, also a haskell inside joke. edwardk put it into some package, i think.
23:35:56 <oerjan> part of the joke is that it's ridiculously complicated, so i never remember exactly what it is
23:36:38 <zzo38> pikhq: That is what I meant.
23:37:44 <elliott__> i bet copumpkin knows
23:44:21 -!- elliot__ has joined.
23:49:57 <oerjan> shachaf: you do know elliott__ finds that sort of thing annoying.
23:51:48 <shachaf> Oh.
23:51:57 -!- elliot__ has quit (Quit: sorry, elliott__).
23:52:14 <nortti_> could someone explain to me simply what is a monad
23:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> hahahahahaha
23:52:30 <elliott__> `quote monad tutorial
23:52:33 <HackEgo> 409) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life.
23:52:52 <elliott__> nortti_: do you know any haskell / do you know any pure functional programming in general / do you know any category theory
23:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti_, basically the only way to know monads is to experience life in all its richness
23:53:02 <elliott__> if the answer to all three is no it is pointless trying to explain a concept specific to those fields
23:53:08 <Phantom_Hoover> and eventually you will truely understand monads
23:53:13 <elliott__> truely
23:53:23 <nortti_> I have read few tutorials but I still don't understand monads
23:53:35 <elliott__> "monad tutorials" will not help you understand monads.
23:53:40 <elliott__> _especially_ if the answer to all those questions is no.
23:53:53 <nortti_> elliott__: yes/yes/no
23:53:59 <elliott__> how much haskell
23:54:11 <oerjan> @quote tutorial
23:54:11 <lambdabot> goundoulf says: I've been reading a very good tutorial on haskell, because the [XMonad] config file was too obscure for me
23:54:19 <zzo38> nortti_: Monads is a endofunctor including return and join operations which follow certain laws. And then there is >>= which is combining fmap with join. Maybe you won't understand...
23:54:24 <elliott__> nortti_: ideally just read learn you a haskell and write actual haskell programs and you will figure out what a monad is better than any hamfisted irc explanation will give you
23:54:40 <nortti_> ok
23:54:43 <elliott__> they are not complicated, they are just a simple concept that happens to tick most of the jargon boxes
23:54:48 <zzo38> Yes, writing a Haskell program, or just experimenting with monads in some other way, is best way.
23:54:57 <elliott__> so they get unwarranted focus from those unfamiliar with the jargon
23:55:16 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti_, alternately:
23:55:20 <Phantom_Hoover> `? monad
23:55:22 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
23:55:46 <elliott__> nortti_: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Typeclassopedia is a very good read for understanding Haskell's (mostly) theoretically-based typeclasses. but it is pointless trying to read it without enough haskell skill/experience to write regular programs in it fairly well, esp. with the exercises, so get that first
23:56:35 <zzo38> I don't know what the "category of endofunctors" is.
23:56:43 <oerjan> `? endofunctor
23:56:46 <HackEgo> Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
23:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> `? category
23:56:52 <HackEgo> Categories are just categories.
23:56:59 <zzo38> I do know what a endofunctor is and what a category is, though.
23:57:20 <shachaf> type Category = Just Category
23:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Category of endofunctors is where the objects are endofunctors and the morphisms are natural transformations.
23:59:00 <zzo38> OK
2012-07-21
00:01:54 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:01:55 <oerjan> zzo38: there's an entire hierarchy of category - functor - natural transformation - etc. although i don't really know anything about what comes after natural transformation. and there is something called an n-category which has something to do with a structure that has such a hierarchy up to step n.
00:03:30 <elliott__> the next one is "unnatural transformation"
00:03:55 <oerjan> each step forms the objects of a category with the next step its morphisms
00:04:56 <oerjan> john baez used to blog about these things, before the word blog was invented
00:05:38 <oerjan> and (i think) he started a forum called the n-category cafe
00:05:53 <elliott__> yes, the n-category cafe exists
00:06:30 <elliott__> (perhaps the least understandable blog ever???)
00:06:58 <oerjan> i don't know, i haven't tried reading it
00:07:28 <elliott__> http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/ now's your opportunity
00:09:01 <oerjan> that wikipedia picture is definitely _not_ what i would imagine him to look like
00:09:19 <elliott__> not enough beard?
00:10:04 <oerjan> i don't have a very precise imagination, i just know that isn't it :P
00:10:09 <elliott__> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=john+baez&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&biw=1366&bih=685&sei=VfMJUNGpKoOr0QXDhtHoCg take your pick
00:12:22 <oerjan> I TAKE THAT FELIX KLEIN PICTURE
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00:51:23 <zzo38> I thought of what jumpers my computer design will have: Jumper 0 causes privilege mode to always be enabled (otherwise only the BIOS can do so). Jumper 1 enables the debugger. Jumper 2 allows ROM to be reflashed. Jumper 3 enters recovery mode. Jumper 4 changes the boot order. Jumper 5 slows down the computer. Jumper 6 and 7 set the region code (no code, NTSC, PAL, or SECAM).
00:52:13 <zzo38> Is this OK?
00:53:56 <zzo38> (Normally, once it boots, if autostart is not enabled or no media which can be autostarted is inserted, a Forth interpreter will be loaded, and you can type BASIC at the prompt to enter a BASIC interpreter instead.)
00:56:33 <zzo38> (More specifically, Jumper 1 allows the Forth interpreter to become a privileged task, so that it may load a debugger or do anything else that would otherwise require privelege mode. Jumper 5 simply cuts the CPU clock speed in half in order to save energy.)
01:00:38 <zzo38> (Approval does *not* allow your program to bypass the security! Only a user physically adjusting the computer (instructions are provided in the manual and require only a screwdriver) can do that.)
01:05:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:06:34 <pikhq> "in Europe and the UK, lemonade is a carbonated drink" I... What?
01:06:50 <zzo38> O, they have carbonated lemonade in UK?
01:07:02 <zzo38> I know some people have been in UK I will ask them.
01:07:34 <oerjan> well it's news to _me_
01:08:23 <elliott__> huh?
01:08:28 <elliott__> yes, we have carbonated lemonade
01:08:39 <elliott__> i had some today, in fact. (the cloudy kind.)
01:09:03 <oerjan> our carbonated citrus drinks are usually orange based, fanta and the local competitor solo
01:09:26 <oerjan> *in norway
01:09:48 <elliott__> the standard carbonated lemonade is generally transparent. the flavour is hard to describe
01:09:54 <oerjan> and i guess there are some even less well-known brands
01:10:09 <elliott__> but you can imagine cloudy lemonade basically like fanta if it was made with lemons, except less sugary and more bitter. well, that's not really a good explanation.
01:10:12 <elliott__> but you get the idea.
01:10:21 <oerjan> hm is sprite a carbonated lemonade?
01:10:33 <elliott__> sprite is lemon-lime -- so close enough, yes
01:10:43 <elliott__> imagine sprint without the lime :p
01:11:07 <elliott__> (for normal lemonade. cloudy/"traditional" is different still.)
01:13:30 <zzo38> Do they have carbonated television?
01:13:39 <kmc> I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS
01:13:44 <kmc> lemonade in the UK is clear
01:13:46 <kmc> what a country
01:13:50 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm a bit fizzy on that concept
01:14:00 <copumpkin> impossible
01:14:56 <elliott__> kmc: not all!
01:15:04 <elliott__> kmc: as established, cloudy lemonade is not clear
01:15:33 <elliott__> kmc: have you tried cloudy lemonade? have you been to the uk
01:15:54 <copumpkin> I have!
01:16:02 <copumpkin> I therefore speak for all UK people
01:16:02 <kmc> i'm in the UK as we speak
01:16:10 <kmc> i have not tried cloudy lemonade in the UK
01:16:12 <copumpkin> oh, in that case I shall let kmc speak for everyone
01:16:15 <kmc> i hear it's still fizzy
01:16:54 <shachaf> Cloud lemonade is fizzie?
01:17:19 <elliott__> kmc: it is quite refreshing
01:17:46 <shachaf> Ugh, "cloudy" means "carbonated"?
01:17:50 <shachaf> I can't drink carbonated things.
01:18:01 <elliott__> no, both cloudy and non-cloudy lemonade are carbonated
01:18:07 <shachaf> What?
01:18:22 -!- ais523 has quit.
01:18:23 <shachaf> Oh.
01:18:35 <shachaf> whoa
01:18:53 <kmc> non-cloudy lemonade looks exactly like water
01:19:11 <elliott__> kmc: well, sparkling water, rather.
01:19:18 <kmc> yeah
01:19:21 <kmc> i meant in the bottle
01:19:23 <elliott__> right
01:19:24 <kmc> it is fizzy
01:19:33 <shachaf> :-(
01:19:46 <kmc> i'm in The Other Cambridge right now
01:20:03 <shachaf> kmc: Go visit elliott__!
01:20:21 <elliott__> i am not worth visiting
01:20:22 <shachaf> He is said to live in Hex hamuk.
01:21:22 <oerjan> elliott__ is unvisitable, like me
01:21:32 <shachaf> oerjan: What makes your unvisitable?
01:21:41 <elliott__> oerjan: have I mentioned I'm going to visit Trondheim some day
01:21:53 <oerjan> i could tell you but then i'd have to kill you
01:22:10 <shachaf> kmc: I wrote an Android program.
01:22:14 <shachaf> It's kind of terrible. :-(
01:22:21 <oerjan> elliott__: maybe.
01:22:39 <elliott__> oerjan: if I was in Trondheim where would be an ideal to intercept you walking somewhere. theoretically.
01:23:44 <oerjan> why outside my favorite restaurant, of course. too bad it's closing in a month or so.
01:25:07 <elliott__> how big is trondheim
01:25:22 <elliott__> if i stand in the middle and shout OERJAAAAAN (with butchered pronunciation) really loudly, will you hear
01:25:22 <oerjan> hundredsomethingthousand people
01:25:29 <oerjan> elliott__: no.
01:25:36 <elliott__> i can shout really loudly.
01:25:53 <shachaf> oerjan would pretend not to listen.
01:25:58 <oerjan> that too.
01:27:20 <elliott__> clearly i will just peek into the windows of every house in trondheim and compare to that one photo of you
01:27:34 <pikhq> This whole "carbonated lemonade" thing is friggin' weird to me. US lemonade = diluted, sweetened lemon juice.
01:28:48 <elliott__> i am sure you can get some nice cloudy lemonade _somewhere_ in the us
01:28:57 <oerjan> elliott__: sounds like a plan. although my drapes are currently shut.
01:29:03 <shachaf> US lemonade is cloudy.
01:29:09 <shachaf> I mean, it's not clear.
01:29:12 <kmc> pikhq: vastly diluted, vastly sweetend
01:29:12 <shachaf> It's just not carbonated.
01:29:27 <kmc> most lemonade in the US is high-fructose corn syrup with flavorings and 0-3% lemon juice
01:29:34 <pikhq> kmc: Well, yes, it's the US.
01:30:00 <pikhq> kmc: I mean, c'mon, look at sweet tea. It's actually saturated with sugar.
01:30:22 <copumpkin> kmc: whatcha doing in the one true cambrifge?
01:30:22 <elliott__> oerjan: first the houses will be broken into to open their drapes.
01:30:36 <kmc> copumpkin: here with an alum friend
01:30:44 <copumpkin> cool :)
01:30:44 <kmc> we dined at a college
01:30:48 <copumpkin> omg
01:30:49 <kmc> excessively nice food :)
01:30:54 <kmc> i put on a suit
01:30:56 <copumpkin> wow
01:31:01 <copumpkin> yeah, it's very fancy around there
01:31:01 <kmc> it was worth it
01:31:04 <copumpkin> I interviewed there
01:31:06 <kmc> then i drank many beers
01:31:16 <copumpkin> excellent
01:31:22 <oerjan> elliott__: you're secretly related to rube goldberg, aren't you
01:31:22 <copumpkin> I hope you wore a top hat and a monocle
01:31:27 <copumpkin> everyone knows that's what they do in england
01:32:13 <oerjan> quite.
01:32:57 <copumpkin> indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5SckoCX9s&feature=youtu.be
01:33:11 <pikhq> Now I know what UK people must think of iced tea...
01:33:41 <shachaf> What's iced tea?
01:33:51 <copumpkin> some rapper guy
01:34:11 <pikhq> shachaf: Exactly what it sounds like. Tea, served cold.
01:34:26 <shachaf> pikhq: In the US or in the UK?
01:34:32 <pikhq> In the US.
01:34:40 <shachaf> What is it in the UK?
01:34:46 <pikhq> Blasphemy.
01:35:15 <shachaf> Is tea, served cold also a blasphemy?
01:35:37 <pikhq> It's the thing itself that's blasphemy.
01:43:06 <elliott__> oerjan: have you fish
01:43:09 * oerjan is wondering if the internet connection is flaky today
01:43:25 <shachaf> elliott__: Why do Java people use strings everywhere?
01:43:26 <oerjan> i keep having to reload webpages
01:43:58 <oerjan> elliott__: i have mackerel with tomato in a tube, does that count?
01:44:14 <oerjan> also cod caviar
01:44:17 <elliott__> shachaf: it is not like it is easy to describe more complex objects in Java expressions.
01:44:25 <elliott__> oerjan: wish i never asked
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01:45:56 <shachaf> elliott__: That's true, but come on! "foo".getBytes("utf-8") can throw an exception even though UTF-8 is guaranteed to exist.
01:46:09 * oerjan recalls reading a newspaper article about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_tea
01:46:18 <oerjan> elliott__: isn't that usually the case.
01:46:22 * shachaf recalls consuming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_tea
01:46:47 <oerjan> shachaf: high five
01:46:53 * oerjan never tasted it, though
01:46:55 <shachaf> oerjan: I mean that I consumed the "tea".
01:46:58 <shachaf> Not the article.
01:47:05 <shachaf> Though I guess I consumed portions of the article.
01:48:03 <zzo38> Today, while on a BBS connected by Telnet, I read a message on alt.2600 that someone mentioned they wanted to use a BBS connected by Telnet...
01:48:15 -!- david_werecat has joined.
01:48:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Was that someone you?
01:48:38 <zzo38> shachaf: No, it was someone else who posted that message, the message included a lot of other stuff too
01:49:18 <shachaf> Did it have anything about Magic: The Gathering?
01:49:23 <shachaf> Or Ibtlfmm?
01:49:25 <zzo38> No.
01:51:34 * oerjan ponders OGO
01:51:43 <oerjan> like php, but one step worse
01:52:01 * oerjan watches universe implode in paradox
02:04:27 <zzo38> Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
02:04:31 <zzo38> Prove that for any natural N, 1000^N - 1 cannot be a divisor of 1978^N - 1
02:05:26 <quintopia> that sounds difficile
02:08:54 <oerjan> `factor 1978
02:08:55 <quintopia> oh
02:08:57 <quintopia> wait
02:08:57 <HackEgo> 1978: 2 23 43
02:09:03 <quintopia> no it isnt difficult
02:09:13 <quintopia> i thought it was like
02:09:20 <quintopia> two different exponents
02:10:14 <quintopia> wait
02:10:20 <quintopia> yes it still is hard
02:10:23 <quintopia> oerjan: halp
02:10:30 <oerjan> i'm slightly on it
02:11:50 <oerjan> hmph both sides are divisible by 3
02:12:01 <quintopia> left is divisible by 9
02:12:36 <oerjan> hm...
02:12:53 <zzo38> Yes I think you are correct it is divisible by nine I have not noticed that before.
02:13:03 <oerjan> > [7^n `mod` 9 | n <- [1..]]
02:13:04 <lambdabot> [7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,...
02:13:41 <oerjan> the right side is divisible by 9 if n is divisible by 3
02:13:50 <quintopia> kk
02:14:28 <quintopia> > 7^4
02:14:29 <lambdabot> 2401
02:14:37 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Excess Flood).
02:14:50 <quintopia> is 1978 = 7 mod 9?
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02:15:02 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host).
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02:15:06 <oerjan> yes
02:15:15 <quintopia> ah
02:15:22 <oerjan> usual digital root calculation
02:15:49 <quintopia> so the other factor must be the interesting one
02:16:21 <quintopia> the left side is divisible by 27 if N is 1 mod 3
02:16:30 <quintopia> but thats not super helpful :P
02:16:46 <quintopia> wait
02:16:46 <quintopia> no
02:16:53 <quintopia> the left side is always divisible by 27
02:17:04 <quintopia> thats more helpful
02:17:22 <oerjan> it's always divisible by 999, come to think of it
02:17:28 <oerjan> `factor 999
02:17:30 <HackEgo> 999: 3 3 3 37
02:17:56 <oerjan> > 1978 `mod` 37
02:17:58 <lambdabot> 17
02:17:58 <quintopia> oh right
02:18:24 <quintopia> 999*1001, 999*1001001, 999*1001001001 etc
02:18:34 <oerjan> > [17^n `mod` 37 | n <- [1..]]
02:18:36 <lambdabot> [17,30,29,12,19,27,15,33,6,28,32,26,35,3,14,16,13,36,20,7,8,25,18,10,22,4,3...
02:18:48 <quintopia> we need moreterms!
02:19:04 <oerjan> hmph
02:19:20 <quintopia> i expect its a 37 cycle
02:19:27 <oerjan> actually we have enough to deduce that
02:19:28 <quintopia> and it will be 1 at 37
02:19:43 <quintopia> 17 and 37 rel prime
02:19:52 <oerjan> no
02:20:02 <oerjan> > 17^36 `mod` 37
02:20:04 <lambdabot> 1
02:20:08 <oerjan> fermat's little theorem
02:20:14 <quintopia> right right
02:20:38 <quintopia> thats the 37th term if you start at 0. also the first term :P
02:20:47 <oerjan> so n must be divisible by 36 :P
02:21:20 <quintopia> well still not an answer
02:21:27 <oerjan> `factor 999999
02:21:30 <HackEgo> 999999: 3 3 3 7 11 13 37
02:21:37 <elliott__> HI OERJAN
02:21:39 <elliott__> WHATS UP ?
02:21:45 <oerjan> those are also factors once n is divisible by 2
02:21:59 <oerjan> (which we have now proved)
02:22:15 <oerjan> elliott__: trying to prove 1000^n - 1 cannot divide 1978^n - 1
02:22:15 <elliott__> : /
02:22:22 <elliott__> OERJAN : THATS GREAT DUDE .
02:22:41 <quintopia> oerjan: maybe we can repeat this to show n is a multiple of 4?
02:22:45 <oerjan> `factor 1978
02:22:48 <HackEgo> 1978: 2 23 43
02:22:59 <oerjan> `factor 999999999
02:23:02 <HackEgo> 999999999: 3 3 3 3 37 333667
02:23:17 <oerjan> `factor 999999999999
02:23:19 <HackEgo> 999999999999: 3 3 3 7 11 13 37 101 9901
02:23:28 <oerjan> quintopia: um we know n is a multiple of 36
02:23:42 <oerjan> i'm just looking for smaller n so that factor can handle them
02:23:43 <quintopia> then
02:23:53 <quintopia> well
02:24:23 <oerjan> quintopia: if either 23 or 43 could show up, we'd be done :/
02:24:52 <quintopia> oh right
02:25:24 <oerjan> hm...
02:25:25 <quintopia> what if it doesnt show up til 10^108-1?
02:26:02 <oerjan> > [1000^n `mod` 23 | n <- [1..]]
02:26:04 <lambdabot> [11,6,20,13,5,9,7,8,19,2,22,12,17,3,10,18,14,16,15,4,21,1,11,6,20,13,5,9,7,...
02:26:15 <elliott__> pikhq: hey, tell mike to make tup's output less ugly
02:26:24 <quintopia> theres a 1
02:26:26 <oerjan> > [1000^n `mod` 43 | n <- [1..]]
02:26:27 <lambdabot> [11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,...
02:26:33 <quintopia> hurrah
02:26:36 <elliott__> pikhq: it has developed so many bells and whistles in the form of coloured progress bars that i can no longer stand to look at it.
02:26:48 <oerjan> quintopia: alas, and in the 22 spot too
02:27:13 <quintopia> yeah
02:27:40 <oerjan> hm left hand is divisible by 43 if n divisible by 7
02:28:34 <oerjan> but that doesn't tell about what to do when n isn't
02:28:46 <elliott__> > [0..]
02:28:48 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
02:28:50 <elliott__> )i felt left out)
02:28:52 <elliott__> *(i
02:31:01 <oerjan> hm oh wait
02:32:51 * oerjan gets tired
02:35:05 <elliott__> oerjan: im tire 2
02:37:18 <shachaf> copumpkin: Agda is a low-level language. :-(
02:37:26 <copumpkin> yup
02:43:07 <elliott__> oerjan: can you bring nsqx back
02:43:28 <elliott__> he has been gone since **may**. that is forever !!!
02:43:35 <elliott__> i nominate kmc as the substitute nsqx
02:43:42 <elliott__> kmc: tell me about unicode
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02:53:16 <oerjan> > [1978^n `mod` 9900 | n <- [1..]]
02:53:18 <lambdabot> [1978,1984,3952,5956,9868,6004,5812,2236,7408,1024,5872,2116,7648,544,6832,...
02:53:25 <oerjan> oops
02:53:49 <oerjan> > [1978^n `mod` 9901 | n <- [1..]]
02:53:50 <lambdabot> [1978,1589,4425,166,1615,6348,1876,7754,763,4262,4485,34,7846,4521,1935,564...
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02:54:49 <oerjan> > iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1
02:54:50 <lambdabot> [1,1978,1589,4425,166,1615,6348,1876,7754,763,4262,4485,34,7846,4521,1935,5...
02:55:03 <oerjan> > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1
02:55:04 <lambdabot> Just 0
02:55:18 <oerjan> > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1978
02:55:19 <lambdabot> Just 4949
02:55:39 <oerjan> `factor 4950
02:55:42 <HackEgo> 4950: 2 3 3 5 5 11
02:55:46 <oerjan> aha
02:55:50 <oerjan> quintopia: i think i've got it
02:57:03 <oerjan> (1) the left hand side is always divisible by 999, which has 37 as a factor which only divides the right hand side when n is divisible by 36.
02:58:21 <oerjan> (2) thus n is divisible by 4, which forces the left hand side to be divisible by 999999999999, which has 9901 as a factor. this only divides the right hand side when n is divisible by 4950, which has 22 as a factor.
02:59:10 <shachaf> elliott__: are you the real elliott
02:59:14 <oerjan> (3) thus n is divisible by 22, which means the left hand side is divisible by 23. but 23 is a factor of 1978, giving a contradiction.
02:59:49 <oerjan> zzo38: ^
03:00:37 <zzo38> OK
03:00:51 <elliott__> shachaf: no
03:00:55 <oerjan> although if the 1978 is a hint that this was in some math competition back in that year, then there is likely a less computationally intensive solution
03:01:57 <zzo38> I don't know.
03:08:28 -!- monqy has joined.
03:08:58 <elliott__> hi, monqy
03:10:37 <monqy> helo
03:10:37 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:11:17 <shachaf> EHLO monqy
03:13:10 <monqy> elho
03:13:29 <elliott__> ohle
03:13:36 <oerjan> hole
03:15:29 <elliott__> eloh
03:27:15 <quintopia> how did you know 10^22-1 is divisible by 23 again?
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03:28:14 <oerjan> > [1000^n `mod` 23 | n <- [1..]]
03:28:16 <lambdabot> [11,6,20,13,5,9,7,8,19,2,22,12,17,3,10,18,14,16,15,4,21,1,11,6,20,13,5,9,7,...
03:28:21 <oerjan> thus
03:28:48 <shachaf> > (10^22-1) `mod` 23
03:28:49 <lambdabot> 0
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03:30:05 <quintopia> oh i remember
03:30:06 <quintopia> thx
03:30:37 <oerjan> @botsnack
03:30:38 <lambdabot> :)
03:30:38 <quintopia> how did you get 4950?
03:30:56 <oerjan> > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1978
03:30:57 <lambdabot> Just 4949
03:31:30 <quintopia> yeah that's definitely not the "math competition" solution :P
03:31:40 <oerjan> u think
03:32:01 <quintopia> :)
03:32:04 <quintopia> nitenite
03:32:09 <oerjan> bye
03:34:33 <shachaf> tswett: I think you're making things more confusing than before...
03:52:35 <elliott__> I see #haskell is still a shambling mess of people confusing themselves and others.
04:06:30 <zzo38> Is there a program to compile MML into a Csound score file?
04:09:14 <zzo38> I suppose I could try to write one if wanted.
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04:30:11 <elliott__> goodnight
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05:38:56 <Sgeo_> Geez, I can't even write a simple Tcl script without encountering a bug which static typing would have caught
05:39:08 <Sgeo_> puts $file html
05:39:11 <Sgeo_> Instead of puts $file $html
05:41:29 <fizzie> What's that do in TCL?
05:42:24 <fizzie> s/TCL/Tcl/
05:43:29 <fizzie> I mean, does it treat "html" as a string then? If so, you don't need static typing to catch that, just some simple syntax checking.
05:43:32 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ perl -e 'print STDOUT html; print "\n";'
05:43:35 <fizzie> html
05:43:37 <fizzie> [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ perl -Mstrict -e 'print STDOUT html; print "\n";'
05:43:40 <fizzie> Bareword "html" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at -e line 1.
05:43:48 <pikhq_> fizzie: html is a string literal with or without quotes in Tcl.
05:45:02 <pikhq_> As is puts.
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05:46:02 <pikhq_> Basically, he wrote fprintf(file, "html"); instead of fprintf(file, html);
05:46:23 <Sgeo_> Wait, static typing wouldn't have stopped it, I guess
05:46:37 <Sgeo_> Can easily make a similar mistake in Haskell, really
05:46:42 <pikhq_> Right. Type checking does jack shit there. :)
05:47:02 <fizzie> I see, but unquoted strings sound just as splubby as Perl barewords, which at least have been strongly discouraged in most contexts.
05:47:08 <fizzie> Though admittedly plain "print html;" passes use strict in Perl, too, because it's treated as a filehandle ID and prints $_...
05:47:35 <fizzie> (use warnings will burp about an unopened filehandle.)
05:48:00 <pikhq_> fizzie: If you had to quote strings he'd have to write that as "puts" $file $html or {puts} $file $html.
05:48:31 <pikhq_> Or perhaps even "puts" ["set" "file"] ["set" "html"]
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05:49:15 <Sgeo_> Tcl does seem nice for simple scripting
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05:49:41 <zzo38> Add opcodes "famicom_square", "famicom_vrc6_square", "famicom_disksystem", etc in Csound to emulate NES/Famicom audio. You can have "famicom_2a03" to emulate the internal channels together since they are capable of interfering with each other.
05:50:16 <Sgeo_> Is Tcl more consistent than Bash?
05:50:26 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/Tcl.htm says yes.
05:52:18 <Sgeo_> I think I'm falling back in love with Tcl
05:53:00 <Sgeo_> Nice documentation, easy access to sockets and files, GUI stuff easy to get to when I'm ready to learn it, easy to pack stuff into an executable (maybe? Haven't tried it yet)
05:53:23 <Sgeo_> Just wish AST manipulation was as smooth as in Lisp, but that's an academic point
05:54:28 <pikhq_> It's one of the few languages where that's even a concept, anyways.
05:55:27 <pikhq_> API-wise, Tk is perhaps the best GUI library around.
06:01:47 <Sgeo_> I do wish there was an easier way than using an library (such as an OO system) to make commands that take options like -whatever
06:02:58 <zzo38> Also add opcode "impulse_tracker" which emulates Impulse Tracker's playback, given the necessary parameters corresponding to the sample and instrument settings, including tables for sample data and instrument envelopes.
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07:04:42 <zzo38> The frequency modulation in SoX does not seem to work......
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07:08:40 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joDonPTyMKA
07:14:09 <itidus21> very cool
07:16:26 <itidus21> it's as if, during the 80s and 90s, multimedia was an artform exploring it's constraints, and producing some wonderfully awful results
07:20:47 <pikhq_> That is freaking surreal.
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08:28:27 <AnotherTest> Hi
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10:18:50 <nooga> bork
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10:52:16 <itidus21> {} = {x is good:x is a multimedia app from the 90s}
10:52:54 <itidus21> i have a feeling that i might not have got that right
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12:11:46 <quintopia> augur: re: rent-a-friend. i almost thought he was steve martin for a minute, the way he was acting. very steve martinish feel.
12:14:29 <itidus21> so is my set building working there?
12:14:56 <quintopia> wha
12:15:13 <itidus21> {} = {x is good:x is a multimedia app from the 90s}
12:15:33 <itidus21> the wikipedia page wasn't very clear... {F(x) : P(x)} is the most general form of set builder notation. For example, {x's owner : x is a dog} is the set of all dog owners.
12:16:29 <itidus21> the intended message is that the set of good multimedia apps from the 90s is the empty set
12:17:11 <quintopia> i understood it but it could have been written funnier
12:17:20 <itidus21> i don't write funny
12:17:50 <itidus21> quintopia: well im wondering is it actually valid?
12:18:10 <itidus21> the difference between F(x) and P(x) is so difficult to ascertain
12:18:30 <itidus21> even in high school, i was criticized for not being funny when trying to apply academia to funny situations
12:20:16 <quintopia> F(x) is usually a transformation of the selected element, for instance extracting a related value via a known relation, or just wrapping it in some FOL expression
12:20:33 <quintopia> P is the predicate that determines what the set is
12:21:04 <quintopia> so {x: x is a good multimedia app from the 90s} would have been more standard
12:21:37 <itidus21> ahh.. so i basically didn't need to use F(x) :P
12:22:04 <quintopia> but {x: good(x) and x in 90s multimedia apps} might be closer to what you were trying to convey
12:22:38 <itidus21> hmm ok ill let you in on the secret
12:22:51 <itidus21> i like abusing notations to figure them out
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12:22:58 <quintopia> or {x: good(x)} \bigcap {x: 90sMultimediaApp(x)}
12:22:58 <itidus21> but it's not actually very smart
12:23:29 <itidus21> i don't know why
12:24:26 <itidus21> basically i figure if i do things the way everyone else does them i will only produce what everyone else has produced
12:25:49 <itidus21> my thought processes are really broken from the perspective of the things i try to think
12:26:37 <itidus21> but, as an average joe they're not any more broken than the next person
12:27:18 <quintopia> does it work?
12:27:35 <itidus21> i will endeavour to give a concrete example
12:27:51 <itidus21> reading books can lead to an infinite regression of reading books
12:28:55 <quintopia> i dont need an example. i just want to know if avoiding the conventional rigor leads to increased originality as measured by output of quality original work
12:30:40 <itidus21> i like to think so, but my belief in it's originality tends to be due to a lack of knowing what work has been done
12:31:44 <quintopia> go you there, well
12:32:44 <itidus21> what i am finding is that it seems the capacity to enjoy is fairly independant of the things being enjoyed
12:33:26 <itidus21> and, i don't know if it's possible, if it's worthwhile, or how the capacity to enjoy things is cultivated
12:36:52 <itidus21> also, it is easy to make the fallacy that enjoyment is inherently good
12:40:22 <itidus21> ... that is
12:40:54 <itidus21> if the things which already exist are sufficient to enjoy then for what purpose do i strive to find new original things to do
12:41:23 <itidus21> and if the things which already exist are not sufficient to enjoy, then why should whatever i do be any better?
12:42:22 <itidus21> and from this position, it seems the thing to do is learn to appreciate
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12:48:09 <Taneb> Hello
13:24:33 <Sgeo_> Only now, 6 years later, am I processing that a bug that I reported was fixed in WINE
13:24:47 <Sgeo_> http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4242
13:24:53 <Sgeo_> I made a difference to software!
13:31:24 <itidus21> byond... i might have known
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13:46:52 <Taneb> :)
14:02:24 <Taneb> Is it possible that a Turing-machine with a tape is unprovable whether it halts or not?
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14:09:20 <nooga> beef tartare
14:09:35 <Taneb> I prefer medium-rare?
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14:20:47 <itidus21> if there was a means to use a complete imaginary turing machine, via magic at almost instantaneous completion rates, would anyone bother?
14:21:27 <Taneb> Nah, they're really hard to program in
14:21:54 <nortti> I would
14:23:56 <itidus21> i think its really fascinating that a thing can be useful even when it only exists in the imagination
14:26:38 -!- augur has joined.
14:27:33 * itidus21 manufactures a flying car in his imagination called an itidus mobile which can theoretically let you drive around town without roads.
14:29:04 <itidus21> world peace is for fascists
14:29:21 <elliott__> `addquote <itidus21> world peace is for fascists
14:29:31 <HackEgo> 851) <itidus21> world peace is for fascists
14:29:49 <olsner> `quote
14:29:53 <HackEgo> 520) <fizzie> That's the stupidest thing I've heard all morning. (Though I did wake up five minutes ago, so I haven't had a chance to hear very much.) <fizzie> The "Why are you still asleep? I told the cat to wake you up." comment does come pretty close, though.
14:30:10 <nooga> Taneb: beef tartare is different dish than steak
14:30:39 <Taneb> itidus21, is it a gondola?
14:30:54 <itidus21> hmm
14:31:01 <itidus21> i ought to define it
14:31:36 <itidus21> it travels at O(n) speeds (which most powered vehicles seem to do)
14:31:58 <itidus21> actually wait..
14:32:01 <itidus21> they don't...
14:32:26 <itidus21> yes.. it travels at O(n) speeds as a function of the distance you wish to travel
14:33:11 <itidus21> and it is composed mostly of vestigial automobile components
14:33:22 <olsner> O(n) speed? and n is... the number of items in the list?
14:33:38 <itidus21> for example,
14:34:35 <itidus21> the ratio of the time it takes to travel 1 kilometres, to the time it takes to travel 5 kilometres, is 1:5
14:35:45 <itidus21> i quit this game
14:35:47 <olsner> that's O(1) speed
14:36:02 <itidus21> aha
14:36:38 <itidus21> i think that metaphor would work better to describe the speed of a bus as a function of the number of passengers it collects
14:39:14 <itidus21> ... yeah i quit
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15:07:10 <pikhq_> elliott__: I seem to have gained your aptitude at not-sleeping.
15:07:30 <Sgeo_> 418 I'm a teapot
15:07:33 <pikhq_> elliott__: It's 09:07. I have yet to sleep.
15:07:39 <Sgeo_> I seem to get a bit silly when I'm sleep deprived
15:07:53 <oerjan> <Taneb> Is it possible that a Turing-machine with a tape is unprovable whether it halts or not? <-- certainly, otherwise you could use a proof search to solve the halting problem
15:09:26 * oerjan is assuming Taneb knows that the halting problem is unsolvable, although the difference to what he asks is not very big...
15:09:34 <Taneb> Yes
15:09:45 <Taneb> I didn't realise proof searches were possible
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15:12:26 <oerjan> a proof is just a string fulfilling some requirements, and when the proof is totally formal and detailed it's easy to check them automatically
15:12:54 <nooga> clomp
15:12:59 <Taneb> That makes sense
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15:14:02 <oerjan> it's just that there are exponentially many strings to check of any size, and there is no computable bound for how large a size you need (or else you could use _that_ to check whether a proof of halting exists)
15:15:22 <oerjan> which means it is completely impractical to search for the proof, but still trivial as pure mathematical principle
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15:30:30 <elliott__> hi oerjan
15:31:30 <oerjan> hi elliott__
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15:33:12 <itidus21> so, i guess what that means is you never want to rely on a brute force search
15:34:04 <itidus21> intuitively anyway
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16:12:26 <oklopol> i'm not sure it means that
16:13:44 <Taneb> I'm pretty sure it means that there must exist a turing-machine such that the problem as to whether it halts or not is unprovable
16:14:05 <oklopol> that i can agree with
16:16:43 <olsner> unless you happen to have an oracle for the halting problem
16:18:45 <oklopol> or two
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16:24:02 <olsner> no, using two is strictly less powerful due to interoracular bickering
16:24:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, yes.
16:24:48 <elliott__> hmm
16:24:59 <elliott__> what would such a TM be, anyway? I can't imagine any such
16:25:04 <elliott__> although obviously they must exist
16:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> It's pretty simple to do, just compute a machine that halts iff <unsolved problem>.
16:25:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Although admittedly formal proof is a bit harder.
16:25:26 <elliott__> er?
16:25:32 <elliott__> let's say you make a TM whose haltingness depends on goldbach's
16:25:36 <elliott__> that doesn't mean its haltingness is _unprovable_
16:25:42 <elliott__> just that we don't know which it is
16:26:15 <oerjan> you just use the godel sentence for your proof logic, duh
16:26:34 <elliott__> oh
16:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> There's also that thing about proving whether you can reach I by multiplying a given set of 3x3 matrices which is unsolvable in the general case.
16:27:06 <elliott__> oerjan: ...and you make a TM which depends on the truthness of that by implementing a proof search?
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16:27:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is pretty easy to implement on a TM.
16:27:11 <elliott__> that's awesome :)
16:27:13 <oerjan> elliott__: yep
16:27:19 <elliott__> er, by truthiness i mean provability, but
16:27:23 <elliott__> *truthness
16:27:41 <elliott__> but hang on, you /know/ such a machine doesn't halt, because there is no such proof...
16:27:49 <elliott__> or, er, but you can't prove that
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16:27:53 <oerjan> :P
16:27:53 <elliott__> :(
16:27:57 <elliott__> :''''(
16:28:06 <elliott__> logic is depressing
16:28:16 <elliott__> it keeps forgetting to make sense
16:28:22 <oerjan> knowing that something is unprovable sadly means having a proof in some higher sense
16:29:06 <elliott__> oerjan: has anyone figured out why logic is so fucked up
16:29:10 <olsner> you can prove that something is unprovable without making a statement on whether that something is true or not, I guess ... unless true means provable?
16:29:14 <elliott__> like why isn't it just NORMAL!!!!
16:29:33 <elliott__> olsner: "true but unprovable" is a thing
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16:40:13 <olsner> elliott__: is that what the Gödel stuff says?
16:40:24 <elliott__> olsner: yes
16:40:36 <elliott__> (more or less. ask oerjan.)
16:40:56 <olsner> but as I understood that, the truthiness is judged by a different system than the one it's unprovable in
16:42:25 <Taneb> Taneb's proof of the Halting Problem's undecidability: if there was a Turing-machine routine that could decide whether Turing-machines halt or not in finite time, there would be a Turing-machine that checked itself to see whether it halts or not, then if it does, goes into an infinite loop, otherwise halts
16:42:47 <Taneb> It's probably either invalid or somebody else's proof too
16:42:52 <elliott__> "Taneb's" proof
16:43:12 <Taneb> elliott__, this is the internet. I go by Taneb here
16:43:15 <elliott__> elliott's proof that 2 + 2 = 4: 2 = SS0, 4 = SSSS0, proceed by reduction
16:43:37 <elliott__> Taneb: no the joke is that it is the standard proof of the halting problem
16:43:47 <Taneb> Oh
16:43:53 <Taneb> I guess it's a pretty good proof, then
16:44:00 <Taneb> Good as in simple and works
16:44:11 <oerjan> well more or less. you are missing the technical trick that makes you able to _do_ that
16:44:13 <Taneb> Either that or I'd heard it before
16:44:41 <oerjan> (diagonalization)
16:45:10 <elliott__> i quite like tying the halting problem to a form of the Entscheidungsproblem
16:45:11 <Taneb> It seems quite similar to Quine's paradox
16:45:30 <elliott__> if you have a halting oracle, you can decide statements of the form (exists (n : Nat), p n)
16:45:36 <elliott__> for computable predicates p
16:45:41 <elliott__> q.e.d.
16:45:52 <Taneb> Ignore the fact that I am in possession of the book Gdel, Escher and Bach
16:47:39 <oerjan> O KAY
16:48:21 <elliott__> who is oerjan saying ok to : ' (
16:48:23 <elliott__> is it me
16:48:27 <elliott__> does oerjan not like my prueffe
16:48:43 <oerjan> no it's Taneb this time
16:49:23 <Taneb> (I've pretty much permanently withdrawn it from my school library)
16:49:46 <oerjan> good, good, keeps it out of the hand of innocent people
16:50:19 <Taneb> BUT IN LESS THAN A YEAR I'LL HAVE TO RETURN IT
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18:20:52 <elliott__> monqy: hello
18:20:56 <monqy> helo
18:21:21 <elliott__> you dropped an l
18:21:23 <elliott__> here it is: l
18:28:05 <olsner> helllo
18:28:13 <elliott__> monqy: hellp :(
18:28:24 <monqy> :(
18:29:01 <elliott__> :(
18:30:25 <soundnfury> you know what's hard? cleaning and unseizing bearings
18:30:34 <elliott__> hi
18:30:39 <soundnfury> hi
18:31:00 <soundnfury> I've spent several hours over the past couple of days getting thoroughly mucky hands
18:31:19 <soundnfury> and I am in a BAD MOOD
18:31:22 <copumpkin> anyone remember the various identities of vixey/fax? can someone PM them to me?
18:31:39 <elliott__> copumpkin: i do
18:32:24 <soundnfury> "vixey" makes me think of cron. Which is wrong, because that's Vixie
18:33:14 <monqy> discipline your brain
18:33:28 <soundnfury> Mmm, pixie cron
18:33:48 <soundnfury> good for running executables in ELF format?
18:34:34 <elliott__> monqy: how do i discipline;,help
18:34:41 <monqy> elliott__: shock collar
18:34:57 <elliott__> monqy: that sounds unpleasant :''(
18:35:02 <monqy> wear it as a headband for extra pow & bang
18:35:15 <monqy> pretend it's a bandana to feel cool
18:35:27 <soundnfury> monqy: are you in fact an SMTP server?
18:35:48 <monqy> yes how did you know
18:35:49 <elliott__> monqy: i don't want pow & bang
18:35:54 <elliott__> monqy: i don't LIKE pow & bang!!!
18:35:57 <soundnfury> monqy: you said HELO
18:36:03 <monqy> but the bang is bang for your buck
18:36:08 <elliott__> monqy: what's a buck!!!
18:36:10 <monqy> the pow is pow for your buck but nobody says that
18:36:26 <soundnfury> elliott__: I think it's a male deer
18:36:27 <monqy> a buck is like money but instead of being worth anything it's a joke
18:36:33 <soundnfury> the opposite of a doe
18:36:44 <elliott__> monqy: i don't want to spend money on getting electrocuted!!!!!!!
18:36:49 <elliott__> that's the worst use of money i can think of
18:38:06 <elliott__> monqy: release me from the pows & bangs :'(
18:38:15 <monqy> it was only a suggestion
18:38:24 <monqy> if you want your brain to run free & wild don't do it!!!!
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18:39:14 <elliott__> monqy: i don't know what i want :,(
18:40:17 <monqy> alternate disciplined and undisciplined to get a taste of both
18:40:34 <elliott__> monqy: but what if the discipline stops me from becoming undisciplined???
18:41:21 <monqy> ``too bad'' - brain
18:41:23 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `too: not found
18:42:18 <elliott__> monqy: who... who is brian
18:42:25 <elliott__> does brian control me
18:42:28 <monqy> a friend
18:42:29 <elliott__> was i brian all along??????
18:42:37 <monqy> a friend who controls you
18:42:42 <monqy> a friend who was you all along
18:42:44 <elliott__> that doesn't sound very friendly!!!
18:42:48 <elliott__> can you tell brian to stop please
18:42:49 <soundnfury> I'm brian and so's my Wife
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18:57:47 <Taneb> Hello!
19:00:08 <elliott__> hi
19:00:40 <nortti> hi
19:06:49 <ion> hi
19:07:18 <Taneb> What advantages does having first-class modules grant?
19:07:27 <Taneb> Have I got the right understanding of "module"?
19:08:08 <elliott__> they're first class
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19:08:27 <soundnfury> it means the post office delivers them faster
19:08:31 <soundnfury> :)
19:09:21 <olsner> it means you get a newspaper, free coffee and air conditioning
19:11:21 <fizzie> It means there's this graphical BBS client to use them with.
19:12:02 <kmc> wow it's an elliott__
19:12:08 <kmc> you wanted me to say things about unicode
19:12:15 <kmc> you may have heard all my unicode trivia
19:12:23 <nortti> elliott__: why are you not elliott?
19:12:27 <kmc> do you know about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
19:12:30 <olsner> eunuck-code
19:13:24 <elliott__> kmc: tell me about unicode big endian
19:16:21 <kmc> -_-
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19:36:01 <Phantom_Hoover> How did they even write that.
19:36:35 <kmc> write what?
19:37:06 <Taneb> The Multiocular O, I believe
19:37:25 <kmc> they wrote it like this: http://www.stsl.ru/manuscripts/medium.php?col=1&manuscript=308&pagefile=308-0249
19:38:11 <kmc> note that the unicode reference glyph has 7 eyes, but the only original document i've seen with this character (just linked) has 10 eyes
19:39:12 <kmc> originally wikipedia had no clue about this character
19:39:23 <kmc> i spent some time tracking it down with the help of others
19:39:27 <kmc> that was an adventure
19:40:02 <olsner> you probably hold the world record in unicode-derived fun-having then
19:40:03 <kmc> it's quite lucky that i was able to find a copy of a certain soviet era paleography text on russian rapidshare
19:40:06 <kmc> haha
19:40:09 <kmc> i doubt it
19:40:28 <kmc> maybe someone on the committees
19:40:37 <olsner> you think they have fun?
19:40:38 <kmc> or someone who has implemented a unicode-aware terminal emulator
19:40:51 * kmc works on a unicode-aware terminal emulator, but not much on that side of it
19:40:53 <elliott__> "fun"
19:42:25 <Taneb> That's not even "Fun"
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20:12:24 <Taneb> Why is #haskell so crowded
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20:24:31 <kmc> yeah i always wondered that
20:26:09 <Taneb> If a language's popularity corresponded linearly with the amount of people in the appropriate channel in #freenode, Haskell would be the second most popular language, after Python
20:26:25 <kmc> i mean, it is an interesting channel full of very smart people who say interesting, smart things
20:26:48 <kmc> but i still don't understand how this supports 900+ lurkers
20:27:14 <kmc> many of whom I assume don't understand the majority of what's said
20:27:31 <Taneb> People believe in intelligence by osmosis?
20:27:49 <Taneb> That's why Discovery Channel is so popular
20:27:52 <kmc> also at this point the channel is largely noob questions and bad answers to noob questions, and arguments over how to answer noob questions
20:28:02 <kmc> all of which gets tediously repetitive
20:29:08 <kmc> and one assumes, unappealing to longtime lurkers
20:31:24 <kmc> also a lot of people have their client lurk in a channel but don't ever read it
20:31:57 <Taneb> I've set my client to beep on new messages
20:32:04 <kmc> that
20:32:05 <kmc> must
20:32:06 <kmc> get
20:32:07 <kmc> annoying
20:32:07 <Taneb> So I rarely actually lurk
20:32:19 <Taneb> I'm good at ignoring things, I guess?
20:32:38 <kmc> so why have the beep at all
20:33:14 <Taneb> Because I get bored, and it sometimes distracts me from boredom?
20:33:51 <Taneb> Please don't try to get into an argument about this, because I know it's stupid
20:34:16 <kmc> fair enough
20:51:53 <elliott__> <Taneb> I've set my client to beep on new messages
20:51:54 <elliott__> lol
20:52:07 <elliott__> <kmc> i mean, it is an interesting channel full of very smart people who say interesting, smart things
20:52:07 <elliott__> haha
20:52:08 <Taneb> It stops if I leave it
20:52:14 <elliott__> this is a good comedy routine, you two
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20:54:01 <kmc> elliott__: do you disagree?
20:54:31 <elliott__> well have you been in #haskell recently
20:54:38 <kmc> not in some months
20:54:44 <kmc> i flip through logs occasionally
20:54:48 <elliott__> try it sometime
20:55:10 <kmc> it's going downhill, but unless things have dramatically accelerated then i stand by my statement
20:55:26 <elliott__> i mean there are smart people but there is too much noise to sustain any kind of smart conversation for long imo
20:56:02 <kmc> yeah
20:56:06 <kmc> it's been trending in that direction
20:56:18 <kmc> what are the main types of noise
20:56:42 <elliott__> ...as well as some usual suspects of people who think they are one of the very smart/knowledgeable people but are, in fact, not
20:56:52 <elliott__> kmc: it is mostly just the typical newbie stuff
20:57:17 <elliott__> kmc: the main problem is that it has a lot of people who answer questions and very few who are good at it
20:57:23 <kmc> yeah
20:57:25 <elliott__> and the people who are bad at answering questions trip over themselves trying to salvage their explanation
20:57:30 <elliott__> which fills a few secreens
20:57:31 <elliott__> *screen
20:57:32 <elliott__> s
20:57:35 <kmc> yeah
20:57:43 <kmc> the person who asked the question is ill-served by this
20:57:48 <kmc> and everyone else in the channel to
20:57:49 <kmc> too*
20:57:49 <elliott__> everyone is ill-served by it
20:58:02 <kmc> this is why i kept agitating for people to write this shit down
20:58:14 <kmc> like, there is far too much oral tradition
20:58:21 <elliott__> well it will not stop anyone
20:58:27 <kmc> things which are important to know which you can't find out except by lurking in #haskell
20:59:05 <kmc> i wanted wiki pages which are curated by the community, which have not just someone's pet explanation but a collaboratively edited consensus of the best way to explain something
20:59:11 <elliott__> if I cared I would probably ask and self-answer an SO question whenever I see a common question come up for the nth time but it is really above my pay grade to do that, so I just ignore it
20:59:23 <kmc> but i realized that everyone (myself included) is too committed to their pet explanation and has no real data on which ones are better
20:59:48 <elliott__> answering SO questions got old after a while anyway, I only answer them if I see one with a simple two-paragraph answer I know I can explain well
21:00:20 <kmc> i had some other gripes with #haskell too
21:00:21 <kmc> besides the noise
21:00:26 <kmc> i don't think those will get better either
21:00:29 <elliott__> you don't say :)
21:00:37 <olsner> for the last N years I've only ever said anything in #haskell because I mistook it for either #esoteric or #haskell-blah
21:00:45 <olsner> so now I've set things up so that the next time I reboot, #haskell won't be joined automatically
21:01:02 <kmc> i tried a little to get people to talk in #haskell-in-depth
21:01:06 <kmc> but it didn't work :/
21:02:49 <olsner> ooh, managed to halve the size of the native code for my Android app by twiddling with some gcc flags
21:03:08 <olsner> but I probably broke it too
21:03:27 <olsner> accidentally all the code or something
21:08:27 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:10:42 <Taneb> Hello
21:10:51 <elliott__> bye Taneb
21:12:54 -!- nortti_ has joined.
21:23:00 <pikhq_> olsner: -fomit-text-segments? :P
21:34:06 -!- 20WAAXGSE has joined.
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21:43:03 <elliott__> `welcome 20WAAXGSE
21:43:06 <olsner> pikhq_: actually it produced working code! :)
21:43:06 <HackEgo> 20WAAXGSE: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:43:12 <olsner> most of the magic was in the -fwhole-program and -fno-unwind-tables options
21:44:26 -!- mroman has joined.
21:44:26 <olsner> -fwhole-program did remove some stuff, but a couple of attribute((externally_visible)) annotations put back the actually-needed part of that stuff
21:44:47 <kmc> why is it putting unwind tables in? did you try -fno-exceptions?
21:45:15 <olsner> android's default setting is -fno-exceptions -funwind-tables
21:45:35 <nortti_> what are you talking about?
21:45:38 <olsner> (for stack traces, which is silly since my software won't crash)
21:45:46 <kmc> of course not
21:48:09 <olsner> added some fun-safe optimizations for good measure too
21:51:01 <kmc> natch
21:51:26 <kmc> -funsafe-math -ffuzzy-math -fsilly-math
21:52:29 <shachaf> -funsafe-math -fuzzy-math -friendly-math
21:52:48 -!- nooga has joined.
21:54:03 <kmc> -liberty
21:54:35 <itidus21> -family-math -fantasy-math -finnish-math
21:55:02 <shachaf> fun wind tables?
21:55:06 <Gregor> Oh no, not -finnish-math D-8
21:55:28 <nortti_> why not?
21:57:30 <itidus21> -frog-math -flower-math -fetish-math -functional-math
21:57:42 <kmc> hooray for -fnew-math
21:57:54 <itidus21> i am not sure which set these belong to, and i don't care to know
21:58:43 <nortti_> -f1984-math. now 2+2 equaps 5
21:58:46 <kmc> Did you hear about the law fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
21:59:01 <olsner> -fold-math
21:59:21 <olsner> -folder-math
21:59:43 <kmc> -fugly-code
21:59:59 <olsner> -messy-math
22:00:24 <shachaf> -fussy-math
22:00:40 <kmc> i saw a road sign today: "Humped Zebra Crossing"
22:01:12 <nortti_> :D
22:03:51 <oklopol> olsner: good one
22:05:31 <elliott__> i saw a road sign today that said "hi"
22:10:08 <oklopol> well did you say it back to it?
22:10:26 <olsner> maybe I should build a program to take an aspell database and find all words that can be prefixed with -f or -m and produce another words
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22:15:16 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to latroia.
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22:18:00 <elliott__> olsner: aspell databse? just use /usr/share/dict/words :P (or is that an aspell database?)
22:18:51 <olsner> oh! that's true
22:19:30 <olsner> I once wrote a program that used aspell to build a list of all swedish words (obviously the words file didn't have those)
22:19:40 <olsner> not aspell itself, but its files
22:24:55 <Gregor> You mean aspell dump master `aspell dump dicts | grep '^sv_'`
22:30:12 <elliott__> Gregor: swedish lets you put words together, as I understand it
22:30:27 <Gregor> Mmm
22:30:30 <Gregor> Like German.
22:30:36 <Gregor> So you need the powerset of all words.
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23:22:35 <elliott__> shachaf: Is nand` holding up the channel again?
23:22:37 <elliott__> I can't tell what's going on.
23:23:01 <shachaf> elliott__: It happens. :-(
23:23:28 <shachaf> Yesterday:
23:23:31 <shachaf> 03:28 <shachaf> In the grand scheme of things, #haskell is a stupid waste of time.
23:23:34 <shachaf> 03:28 <shachaf> I don't know why I even go there. :-(
23:24:05 <elliott__> (Has anyone told nand` that he wastes a lot of time?)
23:24:54 <elliott__> `addquote <ais523> rogues using maces is traditional [...] <ais523> not D&D tradition, people coshing people in back alleys tradition
23:24:57 <HackEgo> 852) <ais523> rogues using maces is traditional [...] <ais523> not D&D tradition, people coshing people in back alleys tradition
23:25:04 <shachaf> thand`
23:26:53 <kmc> shachaf: where did you say that?
23:27:10 <shachaf> #haskell
23:27:34 <shachaf> Maybe it's a sign.
23:27:44 <elliott__> You say "there" to mean "here"?
23:28:01 <elliott__> Poor ski.
23:28:23 <shachaf> elliott__: ski isn't a waste of time!
23:28:28 <kmc> who's nand`
23:28:31 <elliott__> shachaf: I mean, he seems to waste a lot of time explaining things meticulously to people it'll be lost on.
23:28:41 <elliott__> kmc: Someone who was probably new to #haskell when you left, or perhaps not even there left.
23:28:59 <kmc> i don't remember them
23:29:02 <kmc> reading logs
23:29:10 <kmc> they remind me a lot of me in #haskell some years ago
23:29:22 <kmc> down to gratuitous use of non-ascii
23:29:27 <kmc> maybe i was also wasting a lot of time
23:29:36 <elliott__> You know the people who develop a decent enough understanding of Haskell to write programs in it and then get frozen at that level of knowledge forever? And then start explaining things badly?
23:29:36 <kmc> i certainly explained things meticulously to people it was lost on
23:29:46 <kmc> yeah
23:29:50 <elliott__> And arguing with people over language mechanics they don't know enough about to argue on the topic of competently?
23:29:58 <kmc> they get frozen because they don't actually have anything they want to *do* with haskell
23:29:58 <elliott__> He's one of those.
23:30:05 <elliott__> (Hey, did you know Google indexes the logs of this channel?)
23:30:07 <shachaf> elliott__: Am I one of those?
23:30:07 <elliott__> ( : ( )
23:30:21 <elliott__> shachaf: No, you're annoying in more creative ways!
23:30:26 <elliott__> I think that's a compliment?
23:30:31 <shachaf> elliott__: Are you one of those?
23:30:39 <elliott__> No.
23:30:59 <elliott__> <kmc> down to gratuitous use of non-ascii
23:31:05 <elliott__> This irritates me more than it should.
23:31:13 <olsner> hmm, I think I'm one of those... except I don't explain stuff to people in #haskell
23:31:16 <olsner> I just idle in there
23:31:17 <shachaf> What gratuitous use?
23:31:18 <kmc> i only noticed because chrome fails to detect the encoding on logs
23:31:23 <kmc> nand` uses smart quotes
23:31:26 <elliott__> I mean, Unicode quotes and aposrtophes are obviously more correct.
23:31:30 <shachaf> squotes
23:31:34 <elliott__> But I can't help but perceive their use in casual conversation on IRC as posturing.
23:31:38 <kmc> squaschaf
23:31:45 <kmc> yeah i don't know
23:31:52 <elliott__> I wonder if differentiated opening and closing quotes will live for much longer?
23:31:53 <shachaf> elliott__: How do you feel about «»?
23:31:55 <kmc> anyway yeah
23:32:01 <elliott__> They're not on anybody's keyboards.
23:32:05 <elliott__> Wikipedia doesn't use them, by policy.
23:32:08 <kmc> people who "learn haskell" but don't ever use it get stuck at a particular level
23:32:11 <olsner> maybe he composes his messages in Word and pastes them into mIRC
23:32:13 <kmc> i'm not sure if i'm one of these people or not
23:32:21 <kmc> i've used haskell in a few cases where "use haskell" was not a design goal
23:32:23 <kmc> but not that many
23:32:30 <elliott__> I guess typesetters take longer to forget about these things than everyone else.
23:32:33 <kmc> nothing really big or production grade
23:32:50 <shachaf> elliott__: I think you dislike nand` for whatever reason and that makes you find everything else they say annoying.
23:32:50 <kmc> some small scripts, and some research-quality / assignment-quality code
23:33:00 <shachaf> And if $PERSON_YOU_LIKE used the quotes, you wouldn't care.
23:33:15 <kmc> is it less annoying than ``ski-quotes'' ?
23:33:32 <shachaf> My point is rationalization.
23:33:57 <elliott__> I like ski's style. He's very meticulous about quoting and not breaking use-mention and so on.
23:34:18 <copumpkin> ski is awesome
23:34:27 <kmc> shachaf: it looks like nobody responded to your comment, either
23:34:30 <elliott__> Talking about people in the third-person is weird.
23:34:31 <kmc> perhaps they thought you were joking
23:34:36 <shachaf> kmc: Which comment?
23:34:37 <elliott__> Let's talk about ski in the first person instead.
23:34:45 <kmc> that it's a stupid waste of time
23:34:53 <shachaf> kmc: I was just generally annoyed.
23:35:01 <kmc> i really wish i could go to boston haskell this month
23:35:05 <shachaf> I should probably leave #haskell before getting to the point of making those comments.
23:35:06 <kmc> but i will be in the wrong continent
23:35:12 <kmc> shachaf: worked for me
23:35:20 <olsner> elliott__: I think talking about me in first person could get confusing
23:35:21 <shachaf> kmc: Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Boston will be in the wrong continent.
23:35:22 <kmc> i still like the people there, and the language
23:35:27 <kmc> if i stayed longer then maybe i would not
23:35:51 <kmc> shachaf: perhaps!
23:35:57 <kmc> i could go to Boston, UK and see if there's some Haskell there
23:36:15 <kmc> it is... not a very significant town
23:36:23 <shachaf> UK?
23:36:26 <shachaf> That's not even a continent.
23:36:30 <elliott__> olsner: Yes. elliott__ should stop talking about me.
23:36:35 <shachaf> More like "I'm not on any continent"
23:36:43 <kmc> and pretty far away
23:36:53 <elliott__> kmc: Coming to England?
23:37:00 <shachaf> kmc: There's a lot of Haskell in the area of Bellingham, WA.
23:37:51 <kmc> i'm in England right now!
23:38:07 <elliott__> (Wait, is nand` really arguing for putStrLn :: IO Void that returns undefined?)
23:38:07 <shachaf> kmc: Going to visit elliott?
23:38:14 <kmc> where's elliott__?
23:38:18 <elliott__> *String -> IO Void
23:38:20 <kmc> whelliott?
23:38:20 <elliott__> kmc: Hexham.
23:38:24 <olsner> elliott__: sounds like it
23:38:25 <elliott__> North-east of the country.
23:38:27 <shachaf> Hex hamuk.
23:38:34 <elliott__> Nearest city Newcastle.
23:38:42 <shachaf> Newcastle Upon Thyme
23:38:44 <shachaf> Or something.
23:38:59 <olsner> is that a different Newcastle?
23:39:19 <shachaf> kmc: I read _Cat's Cradle_ recently.
23:39:24 <shachaf> It's enjoyable.
23:39:56 * shachaf is currently in a town with ~9000 people.
23:40:16 <olsner> sounds small
23:40:49 <elliott__> No, Newcastle upon Tyne is it.
23:40:53 <elliott__> kmc: Whereabouts are you, anyway?
23:42:09 <kmc> I'm in Slough (plz. hold the throwing of rotten vegetables until the end)
23:42:21 <shachaf> kmc: I think you mean "pls.".
23:42:30 <shachaf> That's the British abbrvtn.
23:43:02 <kmc> heh
23:43:07 * elliott__ wonders how kmc ended up in Slough.
23:43:15 <kmc> friends of a friend live in slough
23:43:16 <shachaf> TRAAAAAIN?
23:43:24 <kmc> so it's free accommodation in a place which is close enough to london
23:43:29 <kmc> (30 min train ride, comes every 30 minutes)
23:43:40 <kmc> but actually i slept in cambridge last night
23:43:49 <elliott__> I've never been to London. But I'm pretty sure it's awful.
23:43:57 <shachaf> I've been to London!
23:43:57 <kmc> shachaf: yes, or rather train bus plane bus bus boat train train train train
23:44:38 <kmc> plane boston → dublin, ferry dublin → holyhead, trains holyhead → slough
23:44:49 <kmc> and some local transport along the way
23:45:33 <shachaf> kmc: I took a ferry the other day!
23:45:36 <kmc> where?
23:45:41 <kmc> wherry
23:46:16 <shachaf> Seattle ↣ Bainbridge
23:46:43 <kmc> Canada!
23:47:04 <shachaf> Seattle ↯
23:47:11 <shachaf> Alaska?
23:47:16 <shachaf> Teleporterry
23:47:41 <kmc> you should hitchhike to alaska
23:47:43 <kmc> to one-up lexande
23:47:52 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe that's Bellingham.
23:48:07 <shachaf> Whence whither did lexande hitchhike?
23:48:17 <elliott__> kmc: You should go visit Taneb. He's probably more interesting than me.
23:48:31 <shachaf> elliott__: You should come visit California!
23:48:36 <shachaf> Did you know kmc used to live there?
23:48:44 * elliott__ wonders if it'd be pointlessly derailing to tell nand` that's not what "non-total" really means.
23:48:50 <elliott__> (Yes.)
23:48:53 <elliott__> (To my line, I mean.)
23:49:18 <kmc> shachaf: he went from Cambridge, MA to St John's, Newfoundland (i.e. the End of the Earth)
23:49:31 <kmc> elliott__: you can't derail a train that's already fallen off the bridge into the river
23:49:46 * kmc used to live in California
23:49:55 <kmc> but I never lived in the parts of California which I would want to live in now
23:50:09 <shachaf> elliott__: Yes, don't visit Pasadena.
23:50:17 <kmc> pasadena is... fine
23:50:25 <shachaf> Visit the barea!
23:50:27 <kmc> but there's little reason to visit as a generic tourist thing
23:50:43 <kmc> if you know someone there or have business at caltech, then go, it's fairly nice
23:50:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't there NASA stuff there or something?
23:51:02 <kmc> Pasadena is a decent city of middling size, if you ignore that it's glommed onto LA
23:51:11 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yes, JPL is out there, although technically it's in the next city over
23:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I only really know of it from the twist ending to the musical version of the War of the Worlds.
23:51:25 <kmc> La Cañada Flintridge
23:51:59 <kmc> it's far enough that the summer students who had jobs at JPL had to wake up at butt o' clock to get a bus out there
23:54:31 <kmc> shachaf: I think I don't really like the Bay Area, only SF
23:54:59 <kmc> Berkeley and some of the other bits right around SF are all right
23:55:04 <kmc> but South Bay is super sprawly
23:55:13 <shachaf> "Bay area man prefers science fiction to bay area"
23:55:19 <kmc> it's nice-looking sprawl full of people i like, but...
23:55:52 <shachaf> Didn't you say how nice-looking sprawls are even worse than regular sprawls?
23:56:00 <kmc> yeah
23:56:10 <shachaf> Because they contribute to the downfall of American society.
23:56:10 <kmc> well i don't know if south bay counts in that
23:56:11 <shachaf> Or something.
23:56:16 <kmc> they all do to varying degrees
23:56:22 <kmc> i think i meant a different sort of nice looking sprawl
23:56:32 <kmc> south bay seems to at least have apartment housing at similar density to pasadena
23:56:35 * shachaf isn't an expert in sprawls.
23:56:39 <kmc> mixed in with the detached houses
23:57:00 <kmc> i was talking about rural-burbia places where everyone has a huge custom house on a nice landscaped plot set way back from the road
23:57:24 <kmc> they look nice but are even more shackled to cars than south bay type stuff
23:57:52 <kmc> though some of these people also make part time money from actual agricultural activites
23:58:22 <kmc> it seems to be a thing in new hampshire and vermont that, you live in vaguely suburban area and commute to work, but you also have a few cows and chickens, partly as pets, but you can sell the milk and eggs as well
23:58:26 <kmc> or something
23:58:39 <kmc> i met someone who had 3 geese, 2 chickens, and 2 dogs as pets
23:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> man did you know i used to think new england was a state
23:58:45 <kmc> one of those dogs was probably the largest dog i have ever seen
23:58:52 <kmc> it was bigger than many bears
23:58:55 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: :)
23:59:07 <kmc> there is... little reason for non-USians to distinguish the different states of New England
23:59:13 <kmc> they're all small and close together
23:59:31 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: did you also think New Scotland and New Wales were states?
23:59:32 <Phantom_Hoover> and i got really confused when i was looking at a map and i was like "where's new england, isn't it near new hampshire"
23:59:49 <Phantom_Hoover> "it would make sense, old hampshire is in old england"
23:59:57 <kmc> New Scotland is a state in France
23:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, well there is Nova Scotia.
2012-07-22
00:00:02 <kmc> that too
00:00:14 <Phantom_Hoover> And New South Wales.
00:00:17 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme
00:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I never understood that one.
00:00:37 <kmc> the one time independent Scotland tried to set up a colony, they picked one of the worst spots on Earth to try to colonize
00:01:14 <kmc> and it was such a ruinous disaster that they had to join the UK
00:01:24 <kmc> (well, a uk. I don't think it was called "the UK" until later.)
00:01:30 <elliott__> kmc: Well Scots are kind of incompetent.
00:01:33 <kmc> :3
00:01:43 <Phantom_Hoover> What spot?
00:01:47 <elliott__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Nahl_1850%2C_Der_Isthmus_von_Panama_auf_der_H%C3%B6he_des_Chagres_River.jpg Scotland.
00:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott__, it was the plan all along.
00:01:53 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isthmus_of_Panama, presumably.
00:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Now we get free prescriptions and university; WHO IS THE REAL LOSER?
00:02:19 <elliott__> Sweden?
00:02:33 <kmc> the Darien gap, a bit of swampland between Panama and Colombia
00:02:42 <kmc> the swamp is trying very hard to kill you
00:02:44 <elliott__> "Many held the English responsible while believing that they could and should assist in yet another effort at making the scheme work."
00:02:47 <elliott__> Oh sure, blame the English.
00:02:58 <copumpkin> I went to the edge of the Darien gap last summer
00:02:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also "Although the scheme failed, it has been seen as marking the beginning of the country's transformation into a modern nation oriented toward business. Within a generation, Scotland had one of the most advanced commercial cultures in the world."
00:03:06 <kmc> it's the only gap in the Pan-American Highway, which otherwise runs from the tip of Argentina up to Alaska
00:03:13 <Phantom_Hoover> WE TRAIN OUR BUSINESS SKILLS THE DWARF FORTRESS WAY
00:03:19 <elliott__> What's up with New Caledonia. Can someone explain that to me?
00:03:20 <copumpkin> the panamanian authorities try very hard to discourage you from going down there
00:03:21 <kmc> also maybe Scotland will be independent again sometime soon
00:03:23 <copumpkin> but we persevered
00:03:30 <kmc> copumpkin: woah
00:03:35 <kmc> what did you think
00:03:46 <elliott__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Sud_NC.JPG It is quite pretty, at least.
00:03:46 <copumpkin> well, we went to the end of the highway :)
00:03:51 <elliott__> But I don't know why it's called New Caledonia.
00:03:53 <copumpkin> it felt very isolated :)
00:03:56 <copumpkin> there's a little town at the end of it
00:03:57 <elliott__> What's new about it? What's Caledonia about it?
00:04:02 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott__, it was named by Captain Cook and the French got it later?
00:04:03 <copumpkin> I loved it down there
00:04:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently everywhere looks like Scotland.
00:04:22 <copumpkin> we also found a local tribe and slept on a hammock in their village with no running water or electricity
00:04:30 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sud_NC.JPG
00:04:44 <copumpkin> there was this american dude who had decided to abandon his comfortable life, and drove a beat-up truck down to panama and was living with them in exchange for labor and use of his truck
00:04:48 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: He didn't even colonise the place and slaughter the locals and he gets to name it????
00:04:51 <elliott__> THIS IS NOT HOW CIVILISATION WORKS
00:05:01 <elliott__> Phantom_Hoover: (<elliott__> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Sud_NC.JPG It is quite pretty, at least.)
00:05:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't matter how much you think this doesn't look like Scotland.
00:05:17 <copumpkin> panama is an awesome place to visit, I think
00:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> You have underestimated how much it doesn't look like Scotland.
00:07:56 <elliott__> shachaf: Is there a point to that?
00:08:30 <shachaf> elliott__: I was just surprised.
00:11:24 <elliott__> Well, er, I was commenting on what was going on in #haskell minutes ago when you were in here?
00:11:28 <elliott__> And talking in #haskell also?
00:11:43 <shachaf> I thought you were logreading.
00:12:57 <elliott__> I joined so I could more accurately inform kmc about what makes #haskell bad.
00:17:41 <kmc> #haskell does not look like scotland
00:20:25 <kmc> everyone says how horrid slough is, but the bits i can see from this flat seem nicer than most US suburbs
00:21:23 <kmc> the roads are narrow, and there are lots of shops within walking distance, and 5 min walk away a train station with frequent service to the metropolis
00:21:40 <kmc> (langley (berks) station, not slough station)
00:22:14 <kmc> maybe it's comparable to the bits of Palo Alto near the train station
00:22:17 <elliott__> it was properly nastier in the Olden Days
00:22:26 <elliott__> and things like that persist
00:22:55 <kmc> yeah
00:23:23 <kmc> today i saw the statue of John Betjeman ("Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough! / It isn't fit for humans now") at St Pancras station
00:23:58 <kmc> we were at kings cross but st pancras is next door and the toilets there are free
00:24:01 <elliott__> kmc: Yet see: However, on the centenary of Betjeman's birth, his daughter apologised for the poem. Candida Lycett-Green said her father "regretted having ever written it". During her visit, Mrs Lycett-Green presented Mayor of Slough David MacIsaac with a book of her father's poems. In it was written: "We love Slough".[1]
00:24:09 <kmc> :)
00:24:10 <elliott__> "whoops"
00:24:36 <kmc> well it probably did suck in 1937
00:24:44 <kmc> "It was written in protest against 850 factories that were to be built"
00:25:00 <elliott__> In 2005, Ian McMillan published a poem titled Slough Re-visited using the same metre and rhyme-scheme as Betjeman's original, but celebrating Slough and rejecting mockery of the town as unfair.[2]
00:25:06 <kmc> also there were cows grazing right next to the sidewalk in cambridge
00:25:18 <kmc> in like a dense touristy part (next to the river)
00:25:18 <elliott__> ^ the least cool thing ever
00:25:27 <kmc> cows? or standing up for slough
00:26:06 <elliott__> well there is something profoundly ridiculous and snore-inducing about taking an anti-slough poem and using it to write Hey Maybe Slough Isn't All That Bad After All by ripping off its structure
00:26:30 <kmc> yeah
00:26:34 <elliott__> Let's All Just Get Along And Not Make Nasty Poems (structure taken from Fuck Everybody Everything Sucks)
00:26:40 <kmc> being nice isn't cool
00:26:45 <elliott__> yes!
00:26:47 <kmc> you know what's cool? being nice 1000 times
00:30:21 <elliott__> That's too many.
00:30:24 <elliott__> Who could be nice 1000 times?
00:31:45 <kmc> i ate two dozen jaffa cakes today
00:32:20 <elliott__> (a -> Term b) (Scope a -> Term (Scope b))... I had an elegant definition for this
00:32:22 <elliott__> kmc: That is a lot.
00:33:24 <kmc> it's 1000 kcal
00:34:17 <elliott__> kmc: I'm not sure recommended daily amount thingies work that way.
00:34:32 <kmc> ?
00:35:15 <elliott__> It was meant to be a bad joke.
00:35:19 <elliott__> But now it's an even worse joke, because it failed.
00:35:20 <elliott__> : ' (
00:35:25 <elliott__> I require a rainbow to feel better.
00:35:26 <elliott__> ^rainbow2
00:35:26 <fungot> ...too much output!
00:35:54 <kmc> :(
00:36:20 <kmc> also the UK thinks i should eat 25% more food than the USA
00:36:35 <kmc> i.e. one dozen jaffa cakes more
00:38:50 <elliott__> ask Phantom_Hoover about jaffa cakes
00:39:09 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: what about jaffa cakes?
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00:44:18 <elliott__> kmc: I feel thingied. Thingied. You know, the thing where you are proven right. That thing.
00:44:26 <elliott__> (Because I just read Slough Revisited and it's awful.)
00:44:31 <elliott__> (Also it was... made for Volvic???)
00:44:33 <kmc> vindicated!
00:45:16 <elliott__> Yes! That.
00:45:25 <elliott__> http://www.uktouring.org.uk/ian-mcmillan/index.html YOU TOO CAN ENJOY SLOUGH REVISITED
00:45:46 <kmc> don't wanna
00:47:23 <elliott__> Maybe I'll paste all of it in the channel so nobody is left out. :p
00:47:25 <elliott__> (I won't actually.)
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01:05:14 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, JAFFA CAKES ARE FUCKING AWFUL
01:05:31 <zzo38> Do you know if Csound or any expansion or UDO or whatever can support these kind of commands: "famicom_square" (2A03 square channel) "famicom_tri" (2A03 triangle channel) "famicom_noise" (2A03 noise channel) "famicom_dpcm" (2A03 DPCM channel) "famicom_2a03_multi" (2A03 triangle+noise+DPCM) "famicom_vrc6_square" (VRC6 square wave) "famicom_vrc6_saw" (VRC6 saw wave)
01:05:32 <Phantom_Hoover> YOU ARE FUCKING AWFUL FOR EATING THEM
01:07:10 <zzo38> "famicom_vrc7" (VRC7/OPLL FM synthesis) "famicom_mmc5" (MMC5 square wave) "famicom_n106" (N106) "famicom_disksystem" (Famicom Disk System audio) "freqmod" (use input as modulator wave and table as carrier wave) "impulse_tracker" (emulate a channel of Impulse Tracker playback with sample, instrument, and effect) "framecount" (total frames since start of file)
01:07:21 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: blasphemy
01:08:46 <zzo38> "diskinmidi" (read MIDI events from file) "diskoutmidi" (write MIDI events to file) "dtmf" (make DTMF tones, blue box, red box, dial tone, busy signal, etc) "SoXsynth" (make synthesis like SoX "synth" effect) "dtmfin" (read DTMF/blue box/red box tone) "plot" (vector drawing) "pipeorgan" (pipe organ) "resonates" (string resonating from another string) "guqin" (Chinese guqin) "gameboy" (GameBoy audio)
01:08:47 <shachaf> kmc: Wait, you had a JaffaCake?
01:10:18 <zzo38> "c64sid" (Commodore 64 SID audio) "metronome" (metronome) "differentiate" (make derivative of audio respect to time) "integrate" (make antiderivative of audio respect to time) "tapehiss" (simulation of magnetic audio tape hissing noise) "drawbar" (Hammond drawbar organ) "ephemeris" (read NASA JPL ephemeris data)
01:10:59 <zzo38> "joystick" (read joystick axis) "amiga" (Amiga .MOD channel) "rotaryspeaker" (rotary speakers)
01:12:13 <zzo38> Do you know of anything like that?
01:14:00 <zzo38> Also add a score command to adjust the control rate.
01:20:25 <zzo38> Do you use Csound?
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01:52:20 <kallisti> `fetch ' rm -rf /; '
01:52:23 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `\' rm -rf '
01:52:37 <kallisti> `paste ' rm -rf /; '
01:52:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13438 \ cat: ' rm -rf /; ': No such file or directory
01:52:55 <shachaf> kallisti: You can just `run rm -rf /, you know.
01:53:06 <kallisti> shachaf: I'm well aware
01:53:09 <kallisti> but that would do something else.
01:53:14 <kallisti> fetch and paste are not in the sandbox
01:57:43 <shachaf> Oh.
01:57:54 <shachaf> `run type fetch
01:57:56 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: fetch: not found
01:58:04 <shachaf> Magic.
02:01:49 <kallisti> networking in general isn't allowed
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03:35:35 <elliott__> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11597246/which-keyboard-keyboard-layout-will-be-most-suitable-for-haskell-programming
03:45:49 <kallisti> elliott__: the answerer completely missed the mistae.
03:45:51 <kallisti> +k
03:46:04 <kallisti> but I'm too lazy to SO
03:46:31 <elliott__> Don't worry, I'm busy talking past them in #haskell.
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04:46:02 <zzo38> Have you read the background story I wrote for my Dungeons&Dragons characters? I have asked the other players to do so but they have not yet done so.
04:57:25 <zzo38> Have you ever written any character background story?
04:59:46 <zzo38> (Kjugobe has lost five perica at a Double Fanucci game against a red half dragon once, and that is the only time Kjugobe has ever played any cards at all.)
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05:51:39 <Vorpal> hm
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05:56:01 <zzo38> Do you like this?
06:01:50 <Vorpal> like what?
06:07:26 <zzo38> Did you read the text above?
06:38:24 <Sgeo_> " If you're familiar with using HTML tables to do layout, you'll feel right at home here."
06:41:39 <zzo38> Do you see message about Dungeons&Dragons related?
06:41:54 <zzo38> Sgeo_: What is that quotation refering to?
06:42:14 <Sgeo_> http://www.tkdocs.com/tutorial/grid.html
06:42:19 <zzo38> OK
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07:22:32 <oerjan> bah stupid dns errors keep returning
07:22:42 <oerjan> i'll try a reboot
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07:30:56 <Vorpal> Hm I have 797 sysctls under net.* and 233 under everything else.
07:31:02 <Vorpal> a major imbalance in the sysctls
07:31:22 <oerjan> well that reboot (of both the laptop and the router) seemed to help
07:31:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, but you didn't identify the underlying cause!?
07:32:35 <oerjan> Vorpal: well my laptop had been unrebooted for a while (just hibernated), sometimes it gets weird. and i already tried just the router before once.
07:32:37 <Vorpal> on my phone the ratio is even more absurd: 921 vs. 123
07:33:09 <Vorpal> oh right, there are per-interface sysctls
07:33:40 <oerjan> i assume it can get memory errors or something like that.
07:34:19 * oerjan retains his right to consider computer hardware magic
07:34:52 <Vorpal> you should run memtest then
07:34:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, do you remember the PCRE syntax for negative lookaheads?
07:35:10 <oerjan> no, but man perlre
07:35:23 <ion> (?!foo)
07:35:33 <oerjan> damn
07:35:37 <Vorpal> ion, thanks
07:35:54 <oerjan> gah it isn't fixed anyhow, it happened with a website again
07:36:05 <Vorpal> dammit, why isn't it workin
07:36:27 <Vorpal> oh right
07:37:57 <oerjan> it's like every website times out on first try, then works fine. happened to putty as well. (although adobe ran an update fine.)
07:38:13 <Vorpal> right 250 net.* sysctls if I drop all the interface specific ones (and just include the "all" variant for those)
07:38:19 <Vorpal> still more than non-network related ones
07:38:37 <ion> oerjan: What was the result of memtest86+?
07:38:45 <Vorpal> pcregrep -v '^net\.ipv[46]\.(neigh|conf)\.(?!all)'
07:39:26 <oerjan> i don't think it's memory any more
07:39:35 <oerjan> also, is that a windows program? >:)
07:39:44 <Vorpal> oerjan, it is not a linux one, nor a windows one
07:39:44 <ion> Because memtest86+ didn’t find memory errors?
07:39:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, you basically boot into memtest86+
07:40:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, you put it on an USB disk or CD or whatever
07:40:09 <Vorpal> it doesn't run under any OS
07:40:20 <ion> There is little reason to “think” that it is a RAM problem or that it is not. Just run the damn test. ;-)
07:40:53 <oerjan> ...booting from a disk? i have _never_ done that on this computer.
07:40:53 <Vorpal> memtest86+ is the first thing you run on a new computer. After that you run full SATA tests from a boot CD
07:41:03 <Vorpal> oerjan, USB stick
07:41:05 <Vorpal> whatever
07:41:18 <Vorpal> probably fits on a floppy too
07:41:21 <Vorpal> if you want that
07:41:22 <ion> You probably can netboot memtest as well.
07:41:23 <Vorpal> oerjan, I put it in my GRUB menu
07:41:29 <oerjan> i have never _used_ an usb stick although i have one in the original wrapping :P
07:41:45 <Vorpal> ion, oh come on, setting up a netboot server under windows (which oerjan uses) would be painful
07:41:47 <oerjan> this thing has no floppy disk
07:41:48 <Vorpal> is it even possible
07:41:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, magnetic drum!
07:42:30 <oerjan> also why the heck would a memory problem affect my connection _now_, after a full reboot.
07:42:54 <Vorpal> oerjan, well your memory may be failing
07:43:02 <Vorpal> any other issues?
07:43:56 <Sgeo_> If I'm going to be trying to make GUIs, might as well read various User Interface guidelines
07:44:20 <Sgeo_> Starting with Windows because I'm on Windows right now
07:44:58 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, those are basically "this goes into this menu, and cancel is on the right/left of OK"
07:45:30 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, what are you making a GUI for
07:45:37 <Sgeo_> Although I remember that the guy behind Bonobo Conspiracy disagreed with something
07:45:42 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, right now, I just want to learn
07:45:53 <Sgeo_> Although I do plan on making an IRC bot fairly soon
07:46:05 <Vorpal> "Bonobo Conspiracy"?
07:46:06 <Vorpal> wtf is that
07:47:00 <Sgeo_> A webcomic
07:47:04 <Sgeo_> Doesn't run anymore
07:47:16 <Sgeo_> http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/181
07:47:18 <ion> vorpal: The bonobo conspiracy: monkeys demolished building seven.
07:47:59 <Vorpal> anyway the stuff about what goes into what menu is kind of useless. On windows, the settings option in firefox is in a different menu than in linux. Yet another menu on OS X iirc
07:48:29 <Vorpal> but you basically have to know the guideline for the OS to find it on first try anyway. And far from all programs follow them.
07:49:11 <Vorpal> so essentially, stuff like "settings is under edit/tools/<program name>-menu" is useless
07:49:53 <Vorpal> only truly shared conventions are useful ones
07:50:30 <Vorpal> since it is worse for stuff to move around when you use the same program on multiple platforms than it is to not follow the platform ordering of the menus
07:51:09 <oerjan> no, i don't think it is my computer, since the websites which loaded just _before_ i rebooted still load afterward. as does this national newspaper site which i haven't visited since yesterday.
07:51:30 <Vorpal> oerjan, try another computer on the same network?
07:51:32 <oerjan> i strongly suspect some dns server
07:51:45 <oerjan> Vorpal: i don't have any.
07:51:51 <Vorpal> oerjan, okay try using google's DNS server then in your network settings
07:51:53 <Vorpal> 8.8.8.8
07:52:02 <oerjan> oh hm maybe i should do that
07:52:10 <Vorpal> oerjan, I don't remember what their secondary one is
07:53:12 <Vorpal> oerjan, ah 8.8.8.8, 8.8.4.4, 2001:4860:4860::8888 and 2001:4860:4860::8844
08:01:18 <oerjan> ok i managed to change that, let's see if that helps
08:01:45 <Sgeo_> I find it remarkably easy to write one very trivial script in Tcl, and suddenly I like it?
08:08:35 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, what is the question here?
08:09:11 <Sgeo_> My surprise at liking a language less for theoretical reasons and more for how easy it was to get started using it for something interesting.
08:09:33 <Sgeo_> Although making a web page based on the contents of a directory hardly counts as interesting probabl
08:09:35 <Sgeo_> y
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08:30:02 <Taneb> Hello
08:30:11 <oerjan> hi
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08:37:50 <Sgeo_> def a = 6
08:37:50 <Sgeo_> def b = 7
08:37:51 <Sgeo_> def mul {a b} = {expr {$a * $b}}
08:43:31 <Sgeo_> I wonder if I should be creeped out by Tk's reliance on global variables
08:45:18 <Sgeo_> "Don't give your wish scripts the same name as any of the widgets provided by Tk. It will cause problems with wish trying to apply options for those widgets to your program as a whole. Try the file name example.tcl."
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08:55:33 <nautilux> hi
09:00:09 <oerjan> `welcome nautilux
09:00:18 <HackEgo> nautilux: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
09:07:55 <oerjan> so i see an apparently persistent, long-time wikipedia anonymous ip vandal that no one seems to have noticed -- and decide it's simply too much work to do anything about it.
09:08:15 -!- nautilux has left ("Saliendo").
09:09:23 <Sgeo_> oerjan, o.O?
09:09:34 <Sgeo_> Linky?
09:09:38 <oerjan> (the scoundrel "adjusts" population data in several louisiana pages.)
09:10:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/75.65.184.247
09:10:26 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism
09:10:47 <oerjan> yes, but i'm supposed to give warnings first. what the heck is the point?
09:12:08 <oerjan> also a lot of those edits are long since buried by other edits.
09:13:06 <Sgeo_> I kind of want to just link into #wikipedia
09:13:57 <Sgeo_> oerjan, this is what I'm going to say, is this ok?:
09:13:59 <Sgeo_> Someone I know in another channel noticed this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/75.65.184.247
09:14:11 <oerjan> thanks :)
09:16:02 <Sgeo_> The Bossier City, Louisiana adjustments equal out to apparently just experimenting
09:16:09 <Sgeo_> Didn't look at the others
09:17:17 <oerjan> um no they don't.
09:17:50 <oerjan> or wait, missed one
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09:17:54 <Sgeo_> Only looked at the first and last Bossier City edits, I do see that other pages changes are more permanent
09:18:24 <oerjan> yep
09:18:50 <oerjan> lots of changing numbers, that are hard to detect if you don't look at history.
09:19:48 <oerjan> for the one in the main Lousiana page i checked the references, since they were conveniently linked, and they are clearly wrong edits
09:19:56 <oerjan> *+i
09:27:43 <Sgeo_> Woah I actually remember my PURL password
09:30:26 <Sgeo_> Grah, where can I see a list of PURLs I created?
09:32:28 <Sgeo_> Found it, just needed to search
09:32:32 <Sgeo_> I used bravehost once?
09:57:45 <Sgeo_> Python really screwed me up
09:58:10 <Sgeo_> The whole yield must be in the text of the function and not just a function that it calls thing
09:58:31 <Sgeo_> Seeing Ruby's Fibers seemed cool. Then zzo38's thing for Haskell. Then Tcl.
09:58:39 <Sgeo_> Python's the crappy exception here, not the rule.
09:58:55 <Sgeo_> Python and C# (although I don't know much about the async stuff in .NET 4.0)
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10:16:02 <Sgeo_> `welcome sirdancealot7
10:16:06 <HackEgo> sirdancealot7: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:16:12 <sirdancealot7> ohai
10:21:08 <oerjan> > 14*15 `div` 2
10:21:09 <lambdabot> 105
10:27:00 <fizzie> I think I'd find it amusing if that parsed as
10:27:01 <fizzie> > 14*(15 `div` 2)
10:27:03 <fizzie> instead.
10:27:03 <lambdabot> 98
10:27:21 <fizzie> "More gotchas" is my motto.
10:29:23 <fizzie> > let add = (+); mul = (*) in [3 + 5 * 2, 3 `add` 5 `mul` 2]
10:29:24 <lambdabot> [13,16]
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10:41:02 <oerjan> fizzie: `mod` and `div` have sensible fixities assigned in haskell. (same as multiplication/division.)
10:41:49 <oerjan> although it _would_ have parsed as you said if they'd had the default ones.
10:47:10 <ion> > let add = (+); mul = (*); infixl 6 `add`; infixl 7 `mul` in [3 + 5 * 2, 3 `add` 5 `mul` 2]
10:47:11 <lambdabot> [13,13]
10:47:47 <oerjan> > (0$0+)
10:47:49 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.+' [infixl 6] of a section
10:47:49 <lambdabot> must have lower prece...
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14:13:57 <mroman> I always read compuking .
14:15:03 <olsner> I think he's also known as king of pumpkins or something like that
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14:40:28 <mroman> pumpking?
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15:37:02 <elliott> Unable to understand coding logic / principle / convention - why 'Show a' is needed? Why 'Show Car“ or ”Show String" is not working?
15:45:18 <olsner> are you on stackoverflow again?
15:46:20 <elliott> how could i resist checking for gems like that
15:47:03 <olsner> how could you not?
15:47:22 <olsner> apparently I recently got +100 reputation as an "Association Bonus"
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15:58:41 <olsner> after reading http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11601729 I've decided that "Duporabnikakijeobiskopravil" should replace foo as a metasyntactic variable
15:59:30 <elliott> :D
16:00:50 <soundnfury> My eyes, my eyes
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16:03:18 <mroman> I sure hope haskells value unboxing/boxing is pretty fast.
16:04:26 <olsner> unboxing might not finish at all due to the halting problem and all that
16:04:57 <Gregor> People who use $ in JS variable names are the worst kind of people.
16:05:18 * variable looks at Gregor
16:05:40 <mroman> http://hpaste.org/71949
16:06:26 <mroman> Gregor: I use $_$ !
16:07:46 <mroman> http://fmnssun.ibone.ch/cgi/jlude/mirr/JLude/doc/HTML/files/prelude-js.html#$_$
16:07:50 <mroman> like that.
16:07:54 <mroman> very helpful helper function
16:08:43 * soundnfury hates JQuery's way of doing everything through $()
16:08:50 <soundnfury> then again, all JS is ugly
16:09:07 <soundnfury> but some .Equals() are more equal than others
16:09:16 <Gregor> mroman: lul
16:09:33 <mroman> $_$(reverse,flip(ladd,"foo"))("hallo")
16:09:34 <mroman> and such.
16:10:40 <mroman> I was bored during bookkeeping lectures so I started hacking together haskells prelude in Javascript :)
16:10:51 <mroman> It's not a neat trick, but it works.
16:11:21 <olsner> soundnfury: I think you can choose your own name for the jQuery function if you want to
16:12:07 <mroman> and it map's nicely to haskell most of the time.
16:12:55 <mroman> like map (head&&&length) . group -> $c(map(pairWith(head,length)),group)
16:13:26 <mroman> -'
16:13:47 <soundnfury> what's &&&?
16:14:07 <olsner> with some hacking I think you could write that as map(head,"&&&",length).group
16:14:11 <soundnfury> to me that takes the logical and of head with the address of length, but I'm guessing it doesn't do that in JS
16:14:37 <mroman> &&& is Arrow magic :)
16:14:38 <zzo38> In Haskell's Control.Arrow the &&& operation means to do both operation and the pair of the result
16:14:47 <mroman> but essentially it takes two functions
16:14:53 <elliott> (&&&) :: (a -> b) -> (a -> c) -> a -> (b,c)
16:14:59 <mroman> and applies them to the same value collecting the result in a pair
16:15:04 <elliott> (Technically any arrow (~>) instead of (->), but that's irrelevant.)
16:15:24 <mroman> *Main Control.Arrow Data.List> (+5) &&& (+3) $ 2
16:15:24 <mroman> (7,5)
16:15:29 <mroman> ^- like that.
16:16:04 <mroman> http://fmnssun.ibone.ch/cgi/jlude/mirr/JLude/doc/HTML/files/prelude-js.html#pairWith
16:16:31 * soundnfury runs away screaming and eats chocolate
16:17:15 <mroman> olsner: Probably @some hacking
16:17:18 <mroman> But I stopped working on that
16:17:28 <mroman> bookkeeping lectures are over so... :D
16:17:48 <mroman> And I barely passed the bookkeeping final exam so...
16:17:49 <soundnfury> so &&& is Lxyz.(xz,yz)?
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16:18:06 <mroman> yeah.
16:18:07 <soundnfury> Don't end sentences with so...
16:18:16 <mroman> if your lambda calculus supports pairs like that ;)
16:19:14 <soundnfury> mroman: well there's a reasonable way of defining the PAIR function that then allows you to write &&& := Lxyz.(PAIRxz)yz
16:19:15 <soundnfury> iirc
16:19:24 <mroman> \xyz.((\x.y\n.nxy)(xz)yz) probably.
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16:19:41 <mroman> *\xy.
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16:20:34 <soundnfury> Sorry, I can't work out where that emendation applies to
16:20:51 <mroman> PAIR is \xy.\n.nxy
16:21:23 <soundnfury> why not \xyn.nxy?
16:21:43 <mroman> Because they are the same.
16:21:51 <soundnfury> yes, I thought they were
16:21:52 <mroman> but I like to distinguish the inner function.
16:21:59 <soundnfury> ok then
16:22:19 <mroman> It's less confusing to some people.
16:22:26 <soundnfury> also I'd rather you didn't use \ for lambda, I read it as escape. Particularly lambda n
16:22:42 <mroman> \ is the usual ascii symbol for lambda?
16:22:42 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
16:22:48 <nortti> :P
16:22:51 <mroman> \ hallo
16:22:51 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
16:22:53 <mroman> \ why
16:22:53 <oonbotti> ERROR:Word not found
16:22:55 <soundnfury> I wondered at first why your PAIR function had a newline in
16:22:56 <mroman> \why
16:23:36 <mroman> What the hell is oonbotti?
16:23:43 <nortti> mroman: it is my7 bot
16:23:45 <nortti> -7
16:23:50 <mroman> And he does?
16:23:58 <zzo38> What is a Mugabe Relativity Rating?
16:24:15 <mroman> Isn't that the name of a dictator?
16:24:19 <mroman> or ex-dictator somewhere?
16:24:38 <mroman> Hm.
16:24:47 <nortti> mroman: iterpret forth with prefix \, talk to you with prefix oonbotti: and other things with prefix #help
16:24:55 <mroman> #help
16:24:56 <oonbotti> #echo, #welcome, #cat, #ls, #rm, #writefile, #cc, #exec, #msg, #readmsg, #forth, #loadforth, #eliza
16:25:15 <nortti> oonbotti means "I'm a bot"
16:25:16 <oonbotti> nortti: Can you elaborate on that?
16:25:21 <mroman> #eliza I saw a ghost last night!
16:25:21 <oonbotti> Can you elaborate on that?
16:25:34 <mroman> #eliza He was green.
16:25:34 <oonbotti> Very interesting.
16:25:40 <mroman> #eliza Can you help me?
16:25:41 <oonbotti> If I could help you, then what?
16:25:50 <mroman> #eliza Then I'm healed!
16:25:50 <oonbotti> Let's change focus a bit... Tell me about your family.
16:26:07 <mroman> #eliza I have three wifes, two kids
16:26:07 <oonbotti> Have you really three wifes, two kids?
16:26:09 <olsner> fungot: foo
16:26:10 <fungot> olsner: over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax
16:26:18 <olsner> #eliza over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax
16:26:18 <oonbotti> Please tell me more.
16:26:18 <mroman> #eliza Yes, I have
16:26:19 <oonbotti> You seem quite sure.
16:26:37 <mroman> #eliza Where's your drunk sister?
16:26:37 <oonbotti> Please consider whether you can answer your own question.
16:27:15 <mroman> #eliza Why are you not drunk?!
16:27:15 <oonbotti> Why don't you tell me the reason why am me not drunk?!?
16:27:32 <mroman> o_O
16:27:49 <mroman> Grammar!
16:28:19 <mroman> #eliza しずか!
16:28:19 <oonbotti> Very interesting.
16:28:50 <elliott> `addquote <fungot> olsner: over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax
16:28:51 <fungot> elliott: so could do something like this
16:28:53 <HackEgo> 853) <fungot> olsner: over the undertow! under the overpass! around the future and not just fnord for example. it's just the syntax
16:28:53 <elliott> It's a poem.
16:29:09 <elliott> ^style
16:29:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:30:16 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
16:30:21 <mroman> ^style speeches
16:30:21 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
16:30:35 <mroman> fungot: We must fight with pride, mustn't we?
16:30:39 <fungot> mroman: establishments, ancient, on the conduct and duty of. fnord on the coast of guinea. a gang of " fnord de fnord, was barren, and the success complete. a second edition with fnord and kent with 282, exhibit a far greater alacrity and satisfaction in tracing resemblances than in searching for differences: because by making resemblances we produce new fnord we unite, we create, we enlarge our fnord but i cannot just now be a
16:30:53 -!- Gregor has set topic: Fnord on the coast of Guinea | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:30:55 <fungot> mar@suibone.ch: now then, it be a sin which he never thought any of these things that it was my duty to obey your summons, though i have to be put to the utmost. since that declaration was made four years have fnord and ingeniously compared anarchy and fnord but that which they regard as containing the best system is that in which he sails may be endangered by fnord it with his spoon. it is notorious that the g
16:31:14 <olsner> fnord it with his spoon!
16:31:26 <soundnfury> he seems fnord heavy today
16:31:31 -!- Gregor has set topic: Fnord on the coast of Guinea | FNORD IT WITH! HIS! SPOON! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:31:31 <mroman> he seems broken
16:31:42 <soundnfury> did someone accidentally set fnord-density too high in his config?
16:31:44 <mroman> m���a���r�����@����su��ibone.ch: o_O ?
16:31:49 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
16:31:53 <Gregor> :(
16:32:15 <mroman> fungot: Who let the dogs out?
16:32:17 <fungot> mroman: again, if this strange and fearful infatuation be indeed upon them, just as he would weigh the words of bacon will seem to us to have fallen among the fnord a foreign dominion by means of a wise and good men long deceased, whose munificent endowments have been monstrously perverted from their purposes. it is being executed in violence. i say that the incapacity is fnord vi fnord and inclusively comprehended in the expul
16:32:34 <soundnfury> fnord vi fnord, the editor on the coast of Guinea
16:33:02 <mroman> fungot: What's fnord?
16:33:04 <fungot> mroman: it is the first and last time. he has held us spellbound upon the plain at the foot of ben lomond and at the dinner of the society as unjust. he who is a naturalist, and has during some time been, in a question of which the judge complains, and from the left, he must have meant this--that the monarchy and the loyalty of that service to his majesty's service: it is now for them to consider all piety as grimace. the times
16:33:06 <mroman> Some sort of fjord?
16:33:38 <mroman> Ah
16:33:42 <mroman> Robert Wilson, IC.
16:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, that was beautiful.
16:34:54 <soundnfury> I'm afnord you leave me with no choice.
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16:35:21 <soundnfury> It's alive! Bwa ha ha!
16:35:43 <soundnfury> $Good afternoon
16:35:47 <Virgil> soundnfury: Were correct goodnight whenever person friends between guard usually wealth close
16:36:00 <soundnfury> that almost makes sense :(
16:37:21 <monqy> is virgil broken
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16:38:09 <soundnfury> Broken as designed.
16:38:36 <soundnfury> Well, it was originally designed to talk intelligently, but it didn't take long for me to realign my goals
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16:45:58 <zzo38> They say the Gregorian calendar has no sync with the moon and does not accurately track the equinoxes and solstices. But, we can use the horoscope for that, isn't it?
16:59:19 <itidus21> zzo38: i believe in premonition.
17:00:14 <itidus21> often the way a premonition works i find is that some thought occurs, say in a daydream, and we take the time to think what does this thing, this symbol we have been thinking about mean?
17:01:36 <itidus21> or it could be that some coincedences are so appealing that i abandon reason
17:03:23 <zzo38> itidus21: I suppose that yes when some tought occurs you later associated it with something else in future, whether or not it actually is.
17:03:56 <zzo38> But sometimes it might be because you don't know what it is before, such as a dream it can be confusing so later on you think of the thought making it more coherent
17:06:16 <itidus21> is determining if there is life outside of earth NP-hard?
17:07:29 <itidus21> i say that because, a lot of the kind of speculation about aliens also shares common ground with speculation about premonition etc
17:08:02 <zzo38> I don't know if it is the kind of problem which you can call "NP-hard" and stuff like that.
17:09:07 <itidus21> hum
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17:24:01 <Phantom_Hoover> this is perhaps the most ??? thing iti has said
17:24:43 <itidus21> `quote horoscope
17:24:46 <HackEgo> 837) <zzo38> (Some astrologers say all horoscopes that include objects other than the Sun are 3D, but they don't know what 3D means, that is why they are astrologers.)
17:24:59 <itidus21> nice
17:25:17 <itidus21> i remember when that happened
17:25:58 <Gregor> I ♥ that quote.
17:26:50 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: my point of view is that the topic of horoscopes invites the strange and extraordinary
17:27:58 <zzo38> itidus21: Perhaps it does. Perhaps this channel as a whole is strange, regardless of the topic of discussion. That is why the topic message change a lot.
17:29:02 <itidus21> the word extraordinary was a sort of joke i have about this tv show here
17:29:22 <itidus21> this 17second youtube gives context http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUuWnS8sBow
17:31:03 <fizzie> Oh no, it's that thing that I always misread as "Vorpal".
17:33:43 <fizzie> fungot: Imitate Virgil, please.
17:33:44 <fungot> fizzie: euripides, mother of. his jesuitical morality. how regarded by historians of the plutarch class. peculiar and essentially english character of english liberty. political, views with which it is a weed that grows in every soil. they are zealous against this bill.
17:33:53 <fizzie> That was a good imitation.
17:34:13 <itidus21> fungot is out of his vulcan mind
17:34:15 <fungot> itidus21: pilgrimages advantageous to the cause of compulsory freedom, civil and religious and commercial freedom. every factory that hums with marvelous machinery, every railway and steamer, every telegraph and telephone, the changed systems of agriculture, which however is itself but part of a conservative government, this plan which would fnord all the parts of the earth; and in some of the worst evils of every other tribuna
17:34:23 <fizzie> ^style
17:34:29 <fizzie> ...
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17:34:40 <fizzie> ^style
17:34:41 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube
17:34:44 <fizzie> Oh.
17:34:50 <itidus21> <fungot> i no longer report my style
17:34:51 <fungot> itidus21: some account of the battle in a moment the dreadful tampering with the body of the people is a great satisfaction to me that maybe it was in that place he would not have come forward to demand approbation for a life black with every sort of generous and honest feeling that belongs to him, however, to belong indisputably to the royal parc-aux-cerfs, and turned people who might have been almost exclusively confined to o
17:34:57 <zzo38> Now I added a track questioning command to PPMCK, so that it can be used with preprocessor macros and so on, you can play chord like that: http://sprunge.us/ZgFN
17:35:05 <itidus21> nah.. i know it never did
17:35:12 <fizzie> Well, it's an eclectic set.
17:35:33 <fizzie> It had that bug where it sees one message as a garbled version of a previous message, that ate the ^style.
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17:45:38 <elliott> hi ais523
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17:50:38 <soundnfury> but it does report its style. There's an asterisk on speeches, which is indeed its current style
17:51:17 <elliott> fizzie: There was another thing.
17:51:20 <elliott> <fungot> mŠ¥Œa€™žr•“©”@Ž§ªŸsu¬¨ibone.ch: now then, it be a sin which he never thought any of these things that it was my duty to obey your summons, though i have to be put to the utmost. since that declaration was made four years have fnord and ingeniously compared anarchy and fnord but that which they regard as containing the best system is that in which he sails may be endangered by fnord it with his spoon. it is notoriou
17:51:20 <elliott> s that the g
17:51:21 <fungot> elliott: the desultory and faint persecution carried on against the will of god; but still there are cases in which england feels more than several others ( though they all feel) the perplexity of their pursuits. what now? by bacchus, old man, i must confess that, in france.
17:52:00 <itidus21> ah ok
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17:54:43 <fizzie> It keeps happening. :/
17:55:05 <soundnfury> looks like a stale pointer read to me
17:55:10 <soundnfury> run it in valgrind
17:55:25 <elliott> yes, debug a befunge 98 program in valgrind
17:55:28 <elliott> what could possibly go wrong
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17:56:08 <fizzie> soundnfury: I did some testing that did lead me to think it's a bug in the Funge-98 code, and not in the interpreter, though I forget exactly what that was.
17:56:12 <fizzie> ^source
17:56:12 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:56:22 <olsner> just invent fungegrind, run fungot through it
17:56:23 <fungot> olsner: i was reminded of jack because i came across mr. and mrs. a. building. mr. choate's head is full of ecclesiastical establishments: but such a method, instead of shutting himself up with a book, he tells us fnord at the gate of the tower hamlets to the city of new york; let the great council of four persons, of those persons who were acceptable to the people_, _or while factions predominated in the constituent assembly o
17:56:24 <fizzie> If something obviously wrong jumps at you, let me know.
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17:58:17 <soundnfury> fizzie: I can only see one thing that's obviously wrong
17:58:23 <soundnfury> IT'S WRITTEN IN SODDING FUNGE
17:58:25 <soundnfury> ;)
17:58:39 <soundnfury> also: my eyes, my eyes it burns, etc.
17:58:45 <fizzie> funge bot is written in Funge? Oh no!
17:59:19 <fizzie> When I get sufficiently motivated, I'll construct a way to reproduce it, that should make tracking down the cause easier.
17:59:52 <soundnfury> your funges are going to start reproducing? Too much information
18:00:21 <elliott> fizzie: You should try it with CCBI2 or something.
18:05:38 <fizzie> I should, but it only bugs so rarely. I'll probably need an interpreter where I can set the seed of ? so that I can deterministically bug it, in order to actually catch it.
18:05:44 <fizzie> Well, "rarely".
18:17:09 <itidus21> oh no i gotta brb.. thankfully i couldn't care less since the log will tell me if i miss anything. so stuff ya
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18:17:46 <elliott> rude itidus
18:17:48 <elliott> RUDE!!!!!
18:17:50 <elliott> we don't like you any more
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18:33:37 <Taneb> Hello
18:34:06 <olsner> oh, nice *assembly* question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11070680/how-can-i-remove-some-opcodes-from-java-class-file
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18:34:39 <Taneb> olsner, answer it using only assembly
18:36:16 <olsner> like, build an assembly-language binary grep that removes all goto and throw bytecodes? I guess that can be done
18:36:20 <olsner> tr -d is probably quicker though
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18:37:24 <Taneb> Tell him how to build an assembly-language binary grep that removes all goto and throw bytecodes
18:38:36 <olsner> it probably won't help, this smells of an X/Y problem
18:39:33 <olsner> for starters, how is that transformation useful for "decompiling programmatically"? and who builds decompilers anyway?
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18:40:26 <itidus21> i wonder what he means by "using ASM"
18:41:01 <olsner> ASM is a library for modifying java bytecode
18:41:20 <itidus21> oh.. thats really .. .... a great idea
18:41:36 <olsner> so that's a fairly common way for java questions to end up tagged "assembly"
18:41:48 <itidus21> yeah, i love when that happens
18:42:14 <mroman> Only happens on stackoverflow.
18:42:27 <itidus21> well
18:42:48 <itidus21> the person who named the ASM library should be shot so to speak
18:43:04 <mroman> What he's actually asking
18:43:22 <mroman> "There's a java program and I want to crack it. How can I do that using ASM?"
18:44:26 <mroman> itidus21: He should have named it like everybody else does
18:44:31 <mroman> JAsm!
18:44:54 <mroman> The J at the beginning tells you it's cool.
18:45:13 <itidus21> thats really sad...
18:46:13 <mroman> Which lead to the conspiracy that the actual name of Java is not Java, but ava.
18:46:29 <itidus21> i mean the guys question not the jasm thing
18:46:44 <itidus21> but
18:46:46 <itidus21> yeah
18:46:52 <itidus21> i see what you're saying
18:47:07 <itidus21> j is a prefix
18:47:24 <itidus21> j-oak
18:48:10 <itidus21> ames gosling
18:50:06 <itidus21> Hello, I am Ames Gosling and I would like to talk to you about the Ava Programming Language. With me today is special guest Peter Molydeux.
18:50:24 <soundnfury> Ava Programming Language... APL???
18:50:42 <soundnfury> Or is Ava a new version of Ada?
18:50:55 <soundnfury> Either way, fleeing in terror might be an appropriate response
18:50:59 <itidus21> ava.tar.gz
18:51:02 <elliott> hi
18:52:06 <Taneb> hi
18:53:28 <mroman> soundnfury: No.
18:53:38 <soundnfury> No?
18:53:39 <soundnfury> Aww
18:53:40 <mroman> It's a very common programming language without the common prefix.
18:54:08 <mroman> But APL sounds good ;)
18:54:38 <mroman> J is actually based on Ava Programming Language (APL)
18:54:43 <mroman> so that works out very well.
18:55:26 <mroman> Who's Ames Gosling?
18:55:50 <mroman> oh.
18:55:52 <mroman> I SEE.
18:56:15 <mroman> Ames Gosling is the father of Ava Programming Language.
18:56:20 <itidus21> yeah..
18:56:25 <itidus21> `log
18:56:27 <itidus21> `log
18:56:27 <itidus21> `log
18:56:28 <itidus21> `log
18:56:33 <HackEgo> 2010-12-19.txt:23:56:58: -!- cheater99 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:56:33 <HackEgo> 2009-03-12.txt:22:57:45: <orelo> Well, it's clear in some places that one pair of opposite squares is brighter than the other.
18:56:47 <HackEgo> 2008-09-11.txt:15:38:44: <AnMaster> hm
18:56:47 <HackEgo> 2010-07-26.txt:09:01:23: -!- Madk has joined #esoteric.
18:57:10 <mroman> And his partner William Nelson Oy
18:57:29 <itidus21> `log
18:57:30 <itidus21> `log
18:57:30 <itidus21> `log
18:57:30 <itidus21> `log
18:57:39 <HackEgo> 2006-09-17.txt:20:28:21: <CakeProphet> But you didn't
18:57:51 <HackEgo> 2003-03-31.txt:07:13:14: -!- iamcal has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:57:54 <HackEgo> 2006-07-03.txt:19:30:14: <SimonRC> ah, ok
18:57:54 <HackEgo> 2007-10-08.txt:19:24:42: <ehird`> bsmntbombdood: brought to you by the same kooks that brought you homeopathy: well, no, it was the Chinese. But still.
18:58:07 <mroman> `quote
18:58:09 <mroman> `quote
18:58:10 <HackEgo> 788) <elliott> a billion popups are worse than one distended anus.
18:58:21 <HackEgo> 497) <zzo38> Pythagoras was running away and he reached a field of beans, but he didn't want to step on them so he let those guys chasing him to kill him instead.
18:58:22 <elliott> hi
18:58:24 <elliott> `delquote 788
18:58:28 <mroman> :D
18:58:29 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <elliott> a billion popups are worse than one distended anus.
18:58:48 <olsner> elliott: is this @? http://singularity.codeplex.com/
18:59:22 <elliott> no
18:59:24 <elliott> I know of Singularity, though
19:00:03 <soundnfury> Pythagoras didn't actually exist probably
19:00:27 <itidus21> that sounds very jain of him
19:01:10 <soundnfury> also the Pythagorean Brotherhood was an orphic cult that had essentially no effect on Greek mathematics whatever
19:01:26 <soundnfury> all that stuff about irrational numbers and the drowning of Hippasus is complete fiction
19:04:47 <Taneb> extract is kinda like copure
19:04:56 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, source?
19:05:11 <Taneb> By "kinda like", I mean "probably is, but I don't want to embarrass myself if I'm wrong"
19:06:17 <Phantom_Hoover> WP's sources give a concrete enough basis to conclude that Pythagoras at least lines up with a real person.
19:06:22 <elliott> Taneb: It is the analogy of return for Comonad, yes.
19:06:22 <Taneb> edwardk, documentation for comonad is broken
19:06:35 <Taneb> "Finally, if you choose to define (\<\@) and ('>)"
19:08:12 <edwardk> taneb: ah
19:08:18 <Taneb> Pythagoras is about as real as the least real of me and elliott
19:08:35 <Taneb> elliott does a lot, and I have secondary sources confirming my existence
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19:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> What about Facekicker?
19:09:36 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: I'm afraid my source is indirect, namely lectures in the history of mathematics from one Dr. P. Bursill-Hall
19:09:49 <Taneb> Facekicker... is ACTUALLY A TIME-TRAVELLING FIZZIE!
19:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> " Pythagoras is also said to have preached that men and women ought not to have sex during the summer, holding that winter was the appropriate time."
19:10:02 <Taneb> (he's younger than he looks)
19:10:04 <soundnfury> ooh, my dinner's ready. Biab
19:10:08 <Phantom_Hoover> OK he must be real, there's no way someone would make that up.
19:10:11 <Taneb> (other way round)
19:10:30 <Taneb> He thought white chickens were sacred
19:10:59 <monqy> I've heard lots of things about Pythagoreas, but then I forgot them
19:11:01 <itidus21> as i see it the problem is that most peoples stories are depressing
19:11:09 <monqy> something about beans and wrestling, I think?
19:11:16 <monqy> these may just have been rumours
19:11:23 <Taneb> monqy, he believe people were reincarnated as beans
19:11:30 <Taneb> Wrestling, I don't know about
19:11:41 <itidus21> we want to learn more about the gauss's of the world
19:11:45 <monqy> well that's beans down at least
19:12:11 <itidus21> we want to learn about people who actually defied expected human limitations
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19:12:33 <elliott> monqy: maybe he wrstled beans
19:12:36 <Taneb> edwardk, also, is there any possible ComonadApply that isn't also an Applicative?
19:12:52 <elliott> Taneb: Does ComonadApply imply having a -> f a?
19:13:05 <Taneb> Ah, no it doesn't
19:13:23 <ais523> gah, I had a dream last night in which the length of a bridge was measured in attolightseconds
19:13:38 <ais523> and now none of the online unit conversion things recognise the unit, so I can't tell how long it actually is
19:13:44 <elliott> try wolfram alpha
19:13:46 <ais523> (my guess is too short)
19:13:52 <ais523> I disagree with its ToS
19:13:59 <Taneb> I had a dream last night where I went back to first school to resit my GCSEs, with some guy I know called Juan
19:13:59 <elliott> sucks to be you
19:14:05 <elliott> `frink attolightsecond -> metre
19:14:16 <HackEgo> 149896229/500000000000000000 (exactly 2.99792458e-10)
19:14:22 <ais523> yep, /way/ too short
19:14:28 <ais523> even attolightyears would be
19:14:37 <Taneb> And I had to get a fake tan?
19:14:49 <elliott> `frink attolightcentury -> metre
19:14:50 <itidus21> i went to school with a Juan. hHe had some issues. i was wondering a few weeks ago what has become of him
19:14:59 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "attolightcentury". \ Unconvertable expression: \ attolightcentury (undefined symbol) -> 1 m (length)
19:15:05 <elliott> rip
19:15:07 <itidus21> ^wasn't sure whether to capitalize my sentences.
19:15:18 <itidus21> and i forgot to check
19:15:32 <Taneb> itidus21, was he a Spanish misogynist?
19:15:43 <itidus21> it doesn't seem fair to say i, and call him Juan
19:16:27 <itidus21> Taneb: nah.. he had some kind of mental issue where he started misbehaving
19:16:49 <itidus21> juan perez
19:16:51 <Taneb> Okay, he probably didn't find a time machine and move to 2011 Hexham
19:17:02 <Taneb> Juan RIDICULOUS SURNAME
19:17:28 <Taneb> Felipe Rodriguez Osorio
19:18:39 <Taneb> So...
19:22:09 <itidus21> i would like to hire hayao miyazaki to draw all my game art
19:22:27 <Taneb> itidus21, have you...
19:22:37 <Taneb> How close have you ever come to completing a game?
19:24:25 <itidus21> my most prolific period was when i was doing stuff with the allegro library on dos, which meant none of this nonsense about windows, opengl, directx, sdl, makefiles
19:25:14 <ais523> yay allegro
19:25:17 <itidus21> but i guess most importantly, my mind was healthier back then.
19:25:36 <ais523> SDL and allegro are kind-of similar…
19:25:42 <itidus21> humm
19:25:46 <itidus21> i guess
19:26:13 <ais523> the main difference is that allegro has software 3D rendering, which is kind-of useless nowadays because GPUs got invented
19:26:14 <itidus21> but i am not sure how to put this. allegro didn't constantly remind you that you were using a tool for experts
19:26:17 <Sgeo_> The TkDocs person tweeted me
19:26:21 <Sgeo_> Mostly because I found a typo
19:26:39 <Taneb> Notch tweeted me because I asked what he meant by chips
19:26:59 <Taneb> Turns out he meant crisps, but he thought fries would be a cool idea
19:27:01 <itidus21> ais523: yeah, i used the 3d allegro stuff a little..
19:27:17 <itidus21> i didn't actually make anything with it
19:27:20 <elliott> Sgeo_: TkDocs, wow!!!
19:27:22 <itidus21> just 2 experiments
19:27:23 <elliott> you are famous
19:28:21 <itidus21> ais523: infact, allegro is so good that i was able to get 3d models moving on the strength of the allegro vivace document alone, with no prior knowledge of 3d math
19:28:44 <ais523> yep, it's nice if you want to learn the principles behind 3D but not the maths
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19:28:53 <ais523> the maths is actually pretty easy, though
19:29:07 <itidus21> hmm...
19:29:52 <itidus21> i toiled over the document.. going so far as to write the section on 3d down in a notebook
19:30:12 <itidus21> which in hindsight doesn't sound like all that much of an effort
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19:32:51 <itidus21> Taneb: the biggest obstacle now is that i just don't care like i used to
19:33:39 <Taneb> :(
19:33:41 <Taneb> That's sad
19:33:49 <Taneb> You should make yourself care!
19:34:13 <itidus21> hmm
19:34:37 <itidus21> caring is an elusive thing
19:34:46 <ais523> huh, a link on the homepage of a website went to a .swf file
19:34:47 <itidus21> i took it for granted when i did care
19:34:50 * ais523 tries to open it with Totem
19:35:09 <itidus21> it may be that my house is frankly quite depressing
19:35:18 <ais523> apparently it is indeed some embedded flash thing rather than a video
19:35:21 <ais523> just not embedded…
19:35:46 <ais523> oh, Chromium seems to know how to open it
19:36:09 <ais523> oh, even nicer, there's a "view as PDF" that's only accessible from inside the SWF
19:36:11 <itidus21> i think my brother is really on the verge of some kind of breakdown
19:36:23 <ais523> err, that goes to an HTML file
19:37:08 <Taneb> itidus21, give him a hug
19:37:10 <Taneb> ais523, ditto
19:37:41 <Taneb> elliott, tritto
19:38:04 <elliott> hi
19:38:15 <Taneb> Give him a hug!
19:38:18 <itidus21> Taneb: i can't. heh. i never gave my dad hugs. and well.. it would rock the boat too much
19:38:25 <elliott> Taneb: who
19:38:31 <Taneb> itidus21's brother
19:38:43 <itidus21> we're not a hugging family
19:39:00 <elliott> help
19:39:07 <Taneb> `quote mezzoforte
19:39:11 <HackEgo> 455) <NihilistDandy> Non sequitur is my forte <NihilistDandy> On-topic discussion is my piano <Taneb> Bowls of sugary breakfast cereal is my mezzoforte <Taneb> Full fat milk is my pianissimo <Taneb> On which note, I'm hungry
19:39:29 <itidus21> who the fuck am i kidding
19:39:32 <itidus21> i have $1000
19:39:37 <itidus21> i have no reason to be depressed
19:40:25 <itidus21> i even have 4 sessions of free therapy
19:40:44 <itidus21> and a broadband internet connection
19:41:10 <itidus21> and 1kg of hommus
19:41:22 <itidus21> (well my brother said i can have some)
19:42:57 <itidus21> ahem.
19:43:02 <itidus21> `quote
19:43:03 <itidus21> `quote
19:43:03 <itidus21> `quote
19:43:08 <HackEgo> 475) <oerjan> i try to be a hermit but it's hard with all these housemates.
19:43:16 <HackEgo> 746) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice.
19:43:17 <HackEgo> 776) <elliott> then they edited their own talk page comments after someone replied to it, and edited /the replier's comment/ so that it made sense in context
19:46:04 <edwardk> Taneb: there are _lots_ of ComonadApply instances that aren't Applicative
19:46:41 <edwardk> also if you work with indexed monads and indexed comonads the operations become even more distinct from those of applicatives since the index gets updated differently
19:46:47 <itidus21> i was never actually prolific. i always liked to do things without knowing how
19:47:03 <itidus21> its a very strange mindset to have
19:48:03 <itidus21> but then again, i did used to be more inspired
19:52:54 <mroman> broadband connection is a reason for not having depressions?
19:53:00 <mroman> o_O
19:59:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:59:46 <elliott> hi oerjan
19:59:51 <oerjan> hi elliott
20:00:00 <elliott> hi oerjan
20:00:04 <Taneb> Helloerjan
20:00:20 <oerjan> helliott
20:00:43 <oerjan> hellotaneb
20:01:14 <Taneb> My nick isn't good for this...
20:01:19 <olsner> `welcome oerjan
20:01:21 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:01:41 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:03:30 <oerjan> getoutaneb
20:03:37 <Taneb> :(
20:03:43 <Taneb> /part
20:04:59 <oerjan> parting is not so bad. i hear moses did some big parting.
20:05:35 <nortti> /quit
20:05:43 <oerjan> you could say the egyptians were left in the channel.
20:08:41 <olsner> hmm, I think this is the episode where picard has an extended dream and learns to play a flute
20:09:32 <olsner> many of the actual episodes sound eerily similar to the TNG Season 8 tweets
20:11:24 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:11:47 * oerjan wonders if olsner saw when he linked http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/120717.html (includes the following strips)
20:11:59 -!- edwardk has joined.
20:12:15 <olsner> did I link that?
20:12:20 <olsner> if so I didn't see that
20:12:23 <oerjan> no, i did
20:14:42 <olsner> :)
20:16:28 <olsner> ah, yes, this is the one with the flute
20:18:48 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
20:19:56 <olsner> hmm, they're quite inconsistent with their handling of medical problems... for some reason this time it wasn't "emergency transport!" but "the captain's hurt!"
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20:57:32 <Taneb> Dammit, oerjan
20:58:07 -!- edwardk has joined.
21:00:09 -!- nortti_ has joined.
21:00:38 <oerjan> Taneb: what?
21:00:59 <Taneb> I'm now stuck reading a daily webcomic that started in 2001
21:01:04 <oerjan> XD
21:01:13 <oerjan> been there, done that :P
21:01:22 <Taneb> And it's 5 years since I read IWC!
21:01:29 <olsner> at one second per picture that should only take like 1 hour
21:02:37 <oerjan> well i binged it only a few months ago, and i managed.
21:02:59 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:04:47 <Sgeo_> Taneb, what comic?
21:04:56 <Taneb> Sheldon
21:04:56 <oerjan> i looked at it because i was looking at kaja foglio's livejournal, and she mentioned it positively.
21:05:31 <oerjan> (note: if you don't know who kaja foglio is, don't look or you will find yourself binging yet another webcomic (or four)
21:05:34 <oerjan> )
21:06:02 <oerjan> (i.e. girl genius and other foglio work)
21:10:28 <Taneb> (I read Girl Genius)
21:10:34 <oerjan> ok you're saved then
21:10:40 <Taneb> (No other Foglios, though
21:10:41 <Taneb> )
21:11:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I was thinking it'd be strange if you liked their fetish stuff.
21:11:17 <oerjan> Taneb: well that's the only _currently_ running one, but there's an "our other comics" link to archives
21:11:35 <oerjan> Taneb: also dave kellett has a scifi comic as well, drive
21:11:51 <Taneb> oerjan, can you at least let me archive binge this one?
21:12:10 <oerjan> Taneb: SURE SURE
21:12:22 <oerjan> TALK TO YOU IN A MONTH THEN
21:12:28 <Taneb> I'm also running through the archives of Schlock Mercenary, two a day
21:13:12 <Taneb> I'm up to...
21:13:19 <Taneb> 2002
21:13:25 <elliott> is schlock mercenary the mormon one
21:13:25 <elliott> i forget
21:13:31 <elliott> all i remember is the author's a mormon and it's bad
21:13:41 <oerjan> a bad case of mormon?
21:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> *mormon missionary
21:14:10 <oerjan> i thought all mormons are supposed to spend a while as missionaries
21:14:40 <oerjan> which is why you see them (and the jehova's witnesses) around, even in norway
21:15:10 <Taneb> I've never actually seen either
21:15:25 <Taneb> There's a Jehova's witness place-y thing just outside Hexham
21:15:28 <elliott> missionaries are the worst eurgh
21:16:30 <oerjan> the new trend is supposedly african missionaries coming from the countries we originally converted
21:16:53 <oerjan> since we've turned into heathen atheist scum
21:17:26 <elliott> oerjan: wait, you actually get missionaries from /abroad/ in Norway?
21:18:00 <oerjan> elliott: so they say. and the handful of mormons i've met on the street were americans, afaict
21:19:20 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall them speaking norwegian with an accent.
21:20:23 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:20:38 <olsner> I've run into a couple of swedish mormons
21:21:10 <oerjan> btw i think it was only past month norway passed a law greatly diminishing the ties between government and the state church
21:21:31 <oerjan> not 100% removing though
21:22:16 <elliott> oerjan: isn't that a redditty spin on it; iirc it was done for internal structure reasons (maybe taxation), not to loosen the officiality of the church?
21:22:26 <oerjan> the king personally asked to still be required to be a member
21:22:58 <oerjan> elliott: i don't think it has to do with taxation. the priests are still supposed to be government paid, i think.
21:23:07 <elliott> well it was _something_. maybe olsner knows!!
21:23:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:23:23 <olsner> yes, ask me all about the norwegian state church!
21:23:33 * olsner knows everything, after all
21:23:39 <oerjan> but the government no longer chooses the bishops.
21:24:11 <oerjan> the church had to change into a more democratic structure first, though.
21:24:27 <olsner> <oerjan> since we've turned into heathen atheist scum <-- I guess the next africa aid will have african artists singing about how sad it is that no-one in europe knows it's christmas
21:24:41 <oerjan> olsner: word
21:24:51 <itidus21> my xmas mornings were extremely happy :D
21:25:08 <oerjan> itidus21: well you're not a heathen european, duh
21:25:13 <elliott> olsner: do they know it's christmas is like the worst song ever
21:25:15 <elliott> i argh
21:25:19 <olsner> elliott: indeed
21:25:31 <elliott> it is incredibly annoying that someone was condescending enough to actually write that crap
21:25:36 <itidus21> oerjan: well australia isn't in the EU yet
21:25:40 <elliott> yet
21:25:56 <oerjan> itidus21: you'll probably join the asian equivalent
21:26:09 <elliott> AU
21:26:12 <elliott> AUstralia
21:26:13 <elliott> coincidence??
21:26:30 <olsner> to be fair, I think they were merely ridiculously naive
21:27:07 <itidus21> oerjan: my dad did xmas the fun way
21:27:45 <elliott> olsner: that might be more depressing
21:27:58 <olsner> that was also the reason that almost none of the money raised actually resulted in anyone anywhere getting fed
21:28:08 <elliott> it probably fed bob geldof
21:28:10 <itidus21> suffice to say, my parents never talked about religion when i was growing up. until my teens my only churchly visits were xmas
21:28:38 <itidus21> after that well, it was never raised as an issue :P
21:29:46 <itidus21> but my dad did stuff like leave a bucket of water for the reindeer... and he chewed off some of the carrots we left out
21:29:49 <kmc> my parents decided it would be good for children to have religion, despite not being very religious people themselves
21:30:00 <olsner> (they failed to consider that all the money in the world won't magically make a civil war go away or make a bunch of random countries cooperate around a shared charity food supply)
21:30:12 <itidus21> or did he
21:30:13 <kmc> olsner: what, you mean "Africa" isn't a single country?
21:30:24 <oerjan> the 80's _were_ naive. i still vaguely recall how there was this big environment-supporting multinational concert. i also recall a chinese president or minister or something giving a video speech in it. the reason i recall that particularly is probably because at the same time the tienanmen massacre was happening.
21:30:25 <elliott> olsner: well
21:30:29 <olsner> kmc: it is, but they have civil war and shit
21:30:44 <kmc> you should all read wrongingrights.com
21:30:48 <elliott> olsner: according to the lyrics, "the only water flowing is the bitter sting of tears"
21:30:52 <kmc> they have a regular feature "Africa: Land of Rape and Lions"
21:31:00 <elliott> so if i was a ruthless dictator i would probably want some water that isn't the bitter sting of tears
21:31:11 <elliott> "And the Christmas bells that ring there are the clanging chimes of doom" I HONESTLY FORGOT HOW AMAZING THESE LYRICS ARE
21:31:18 <itidus21> i used to get into the tree decorating
21:31:22 <elliott> what are the chimes??? what do the chimes represent
21:31:51 <itidus21> once upon a time my family convinced me it was fun to make paper chains to decorate the tree and rest of house out of cut up paper ribbons
21:32:06 <elliott> "Well, tonight thank God it's them instead of you" this is good
21:32:08 <olsner> elliott: they represent DOOM
21:32:14 <elliott> thank god african children are suffering and I'm not
21:32:19 <kmc> which is about rich westerners ignoring most aspects of africa
21:32:20 <elliott> A+ message
21:33:10 <kmc> anyway my parents took me to church every week even though they weren't particularly keen on religion
21:33:23 <kmc> which was an annoying waste of time
21:33:43 <olsner> augh, why would they do that?
21:34:07 <pikhq_> olsner: Stuck in their thoughts is the idea "Church is good for you", no doubt.
21:34:11 <kmc> also i think i took it more seriously than they intended and so worried a lot about whether i would be going to hell or not
21:34:23 <kmc> they failed to communicate the whole "j/k about the bible, just be nice to people because it's the nice thing to do"
21:34:41 <elliott> i remember identifying apathetically as a christian for a while despite never being introduced to or indoctrinated into religion at all by my parents
21:34:52 <elliott> maybe because i went to a church of england first school?
21:35:23 <elliott> i guess there was the whole lord's prayer thing but afair that's as far as the CofE aspect actually went
21:36:33 <kmc> lol church of england
21:36:44 <olsner> schools that are associated with religions scare me
21:37:00 <itidus21> olsner: its pretty common really
21:37:02 <elliott> olsner: well religion in the uk is a bit funny
21:37:04 <olsner> I think there ought to be an age limit on religion, much like there are regulations on ads targeted to kids
21:37:12 <elliott> in that it exists and we just kind of ignore it most of the time
21:37:14 * oerjan recalls accidentally seeing one good american tv preacher on tv once. he spoke about how you should have love, not fear, and if you were basing your faith on fear instead of love, you were doing it wrong.
21:37:25 <kmc> olsner: yeah
21:37:25 <itidus21> olsner: essentially all private schools in australia are named after one saint or another
21:37:31 <kmc> there is a lot of awful gruesome stuff in the bible
21:37:35 <kmc> and a lot of really dangerous memes too
21:38:02 <elliott> olsner: it is not like there are not other ways to instill bad stuff in kids
21:38:42 <elliott> I mean a parent does not have to take their child to church to get them to grow up to be a bigot
21:39:03 <kmc> yeah
21:39:07 <olsner> elliott: well, sure... but preventing some ways must still be beneficial :)
21:39:14 <kmc> that's pretty stupid argument elliott
21:39:24 <olsner> I also think that things like indoctrinating your kids in your evil religious cult should count as child abuse
21:39:47 <kmc> olsner: and it does, but we have a weird idea of which religions are evil cults
21:40:18 <kmc> if your religion has 100 people and you sexually abuse children, it's an evil cult
21:40:30 <elliott> kmc: well I do not really see the point of legislating this kind of stuff patchwork when you're really just using an age limit on religion as a proxy for getting kids to have the values you want
21:40:35 <kmc> but if you have many millions of followers and a wealthy global institution behind it, then sexually abusing children is fine
21:41:18 <itidus21> i was approached by two girls at a busstop to talk about religion a week or two ago... i told them my concern was that god was defined vaguely, and escaped on the bus
21:41:27 <olsner> sexual abuse is ... somewhat irrelevant since that's illegal regardless of religious association
21:41:42 <kmc> sadly i don't think this discussion will uncover any new revelations about religion
21:41:53 <kmc> olsner: sure, but the catholic church systematically covers up sexual abuse by priests
21:41:54 -!- nortti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:42:03 <kmc> and yet the catholic church is still considered a respectable and tax-exempt organization
21:42:15 <kmc> whereas if your cult of 100 people did that, the whole thing would get raided by federal agents
21:42:36 <elliott> kmc: ...but personally I think it is probably a bad idea to do that in the first place
21:42:46 <elliott> especially since saying "you can't teach your kids X" is just basically going to fuel X
21:42:54 <kmc> yeah i think legislating it would be fail
21:43:11 <elliott> right - and i was responding to <olsner> I think there ought to be an age limit on religion, much like there are regulations on ads targeted to kids
21:43:24 <kmc> yeah, fair enough
21:43:29 <elliott> meanwhile "Participants in the 300 Club wait for a day when the temperature drops to −100°F (-73°C) for more than a few minutes, generally in the winter. The persons first warm up in a sauna heated to 200°F (93°C) for as long as 10 minutes.[1] Then they run naked in the snow to the Ceremonial Pole itself in the −100-degree weather, and run around the Pole.[2] After this, they usually warm themselves back in the sauna again, often with the
21:43:29 <elliott> aid of alcoholic drinks.[3]"
21:43:36 <olsner> well, I'm not saying it would work :)
21:43:40 <kmc> still, the argument "there are other ways to fuck up kids!" is not much of an argument against banning some way of fucking up kids
21:43:46 <kmc> but "it wouldn't work" is
21:43:48 <elliott> disclaimer: do not run naked in -100 degree weather
21:44:11 <kmc> babies are allowed on airplanes without special seats
21:44:13 <kmc> not because it's safe
21:44:31 <kmc> but because, if it weren't allowed, you would drive and that's even more dangerous
21:44:54 <elliott> kmc: well, it's more that "religion isn't the thing you want to attack, if anything, because (a) religion is not wholly comprised of all the nasty things you want to prevent kids from being exposed to and (b) it is not the only conduit for such things, so it is inefficient and unproductive to set age limits on religion, if you want to regulate anything in the first place"
21:45:21 <elliott> kmc: what good would special seats do on a plane
21:45:44 <kmc> same as in a car
21:45:53 <fizzie> elliott: A bit funny that people at Amundsen-Scott have a club that's based on Fahrenheit temperatures. (Maybe "166 Club" wouldn't just have sounded as good.)
21:45:54 <kmc> as is, they're allowed to sit in your lap
21:46:05 <kmc> fizzie: heh
21:46:31 <elliott> fizzie: Well, -100 degrees C is pretty cold.
21:46:38 <elliott> 200 degrees C is pretty hot, also.
21:46:45 <itidus21> `frink -100 farenheit to celsius
21:46:52 <itidus21> i think i did that wrong
21:46:57 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "farenheit". \ Bounds in range expression are of unsupported types: (-100 farenheit (undefined symbol), celsius (undefined symbol)) \ at frink.expr.bh.byte(frink) \ at frink.expr.bh.evaluate(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.parseString(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.parseStrings(frink) \ at frink.parser.Frink.main(frink) \ Bounds in range expression are of unsupported types:
21:46:57 <kmc> today i rode the Emirates Air Line
21:46:59 <kmc> not to be confused with Emirates Airline
21:47:09 <olsner> itidus21: the original quote included celsius conversions
21:47:22 <itidus21> lol..........
21:47:24 <elliott> `frink F[-100] -> C
21:47:33 <HackEgo> ​-73.33333333333333333
21:48:00 <itidus21> wow.. thats freaking cold
21:48:21 <itidus21> but i was thinking it was -100c
21:48:43 <olsner> I remembered nitrogen boiling at -77C, but luckily it was actually 77K
21:48:47 <itidus21> but either one is not a good idea
21:49:28 <kmc> i once observed people having a long, impassioned argument about the boiling point of nitrogen
21:49:39 <olsner> it would be pretty scary if places on earth could get cold enough for the atmosphere to almost turn liquid
21:49:55 <kmc> since then i and my friends have used "boiling point of nitrogen" to refer to any emotionally heated argument which is actually about an objectively checkable fact that someone could just look up
21:50:19 <itidus21> olsner: well ... we will see what xkcd does next
21:50:50 <shachaf> kmc: They should've argued about the boiling point of helium instead. :-(
21:51:04 <kmc> is that a trick question
21:51:06 <elliott> kmc: it's 4
21:51:08 <oerjan> sheesh it's not that hard to convert between fahrenheit and celsius. look:
21:51:15 <oerjan> `frink F[-40] -> C
21:51:24 <HackEgo> ​-40.0
21:51:35 <itidus21> gasp
21:51:52 <olsner> elliott: actually I think my primary objective with that idea was not so much "religion is horrible!!" but rather that we should make sure that people's faith is based on a conscious decision
21:52:02 <elliott> olsner: yeah
21:52:08 <olsner> and based on other laws there's a certain age where we say that people become capable of making decisions
21:52:16 <elliott> olsner: I don't disagree, I just think that that essentially applies to everything you can be indoctrinated with
21:52:23 <elliott> which is most everything
21:52:26 <olsner> indeed
21:52:41 <elliott> and at that point it gets sort of tricky :p
21:53:02 <olsner> of course the important part is the stuff I don't agree with
21:53:07 <oerjan> shachaf: *melting point of helium, hth
21:53:12 <olsner> that's not *that* tricky
21:53:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, I probably meant melting.
21:53:49 <fizzie> Finland has sometimes had -50C temperatures (though really rarely), and you can stand a minute or two of +125C, so I suppose you don't need to go to the pole to join the 300 Club. Though the ten minutes mentioned might be pushing it, and I suppose if running up to the pole is an obligatory part...
21:54:01 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/2_Helium.png liquid helium looks refreshing
21:54:26 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:54:43 <olsner> so what happens if you drink that?
21:54:58 <elliott> well it is sort of cold
21:55:00 <elliott> so i suspect you die
21:55:08 <coppro> olsner: you get squeaky burps
21:55:15 <shachaf> That looks like lemonade.
21:55:16 <Sgeo_> Is that thing with the guy who drank liquid nitrogen urban legend/made up or was it real?
21:55:28 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Who cares?
21:55:30 <shachaf> Lern2urbanlegend.
21:55:44 <oerjan> lern2snopes
21:56:02 <shachaf> lern2lern2
21:56:06 <elliott> Unlike ordinary liquids, helium II will creep along surfaces in order to reach an equal level; after a short while, the levels in the two containers will equalize. The Rollin film also covers the interior of the larger container; if it were not sealed, the helium II would creep out and escape.[5]
21:56:08 <elliott> superfluids are weird as heck
21:56:12 <fizzie> World Sauna Championships used to do 110C, up until they stopped after those few fatalities.
21:56:14 <shachaf> > fix ("lern2"++)
21:56:16 <lambdabot> "lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern...
21:56:55 <fizzie> Oh, there was just one dead guy after all.
21:57:07 <nortti> ^ul ((learn2)S:^):^
21:57:07 <fungot> learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2learn2 ...too much output!
21:57:11 <elliott> After the death of one finalist and near-death of another during the 2010 championship, the organizers announced that they would not hold another.[2] This followed an announcement by prosecutors in March that the organizing committee would not be charged for negligence, as their investigation revealed that the contestant who died may have used painkillers and ointments that were forbidden by the organizers.[3]
21:57:14 <oerjan> hm actually snopes doesn't seem to have anything except a message board message
21:57:20 <elliott> pretty fucked up
21:57:37 <fizzie> elliott: Sauna is serious business.
21:57:37 -!- Virgil has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:57:55 <Sgeo_> Suddenly I'm slightly sad that Tcl doesn't have infinite-length strings
21:58:15 <fizzie> "His death was aided by his use of strong painkillers and local anesthetic grease on his skin."
21:58:22 <mroman> ^bf_textgen learn2
21:58:26 <itidus21> Sgeo_: nothing has infinite length strings :)
21:58:29 <mroman> !bf_textgen learn2
21:58:30 <elliott> fizzie: I wonder if he thought about the part where he might die.
21:58:32 <mroman> !bf_gen learn2
21:58:33 <elliott> itidus21:
21:58:38 <elliott> > cycle "you are wrong"
21:58:38 <olsner> "was aided by" ... makes it sound like it was a good thing
21:58:39 <lambdabot> "you are wrongyou are wrongyou are wrongyou are wrongyou are wrongyou are w...
21:58:41 <mroman> ^bf_gen learn2
21:58:44 <mroman> damn
21:58:46 <mroman> ^help
21:58:47 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:58:49 <mroman> !help
21:58:50 <EgoBot> ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:58:56 <mroman> !bf_txtgen learn2
21:58:59 <EgoBot> ​82 ++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>. [275]
21:59:03 <kmc> dick balls
21:59:03 <itidus21> damn... i see now .. the error of my.. ways
21:59:13 <elliott> kmc: hi
21:59:21 <kmc> helliott
21:59:21 <fizzie> elliott: At least he made it on the Wikipedia "List of unusual deaths" article.
21:59:25 <Sgeo_> I still think that Tcl is interesting
21:59:28 <shachaf> kmc: Did you hear ddarius is coming to visit the west coast?
21:59:32 <olsner> helium is weird... "Boiling of helium II is not possible due to its high thermal conductivity; heat input instead causes evaporation of the liquid directly to gas."
21:59:33 <mroman> ^bf +[>++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>.<]
21:59:33 <kmc> oh cool
21:59:34 <fungot> learn2.dHA=NJ($*&2,<
21:59:34 <shachaf> copumpkin: The west coast: Such a good coast, even ddarius is coming to visit.
21:59:37 <kmc> did not hear
21:59:45 <mroman> yeah!
21:59:46 <fizzie> fungot: What was THAT all about.
21:59:47 <fungot> fizzie: " id fnord, fnord in the fire. this was the best he fnord has had a run of fnord and he soon retired again. at another, he insisted on her joining him in a chair, beating me at my lodging in the temple, as much consulted as those of any fnord of the pyrenees. no commotion, says mr bentham, that interest was synonymous with beggary. see aristophanes; plutus, fnord.
21:59:52 <itidus21> elliott: though, i enjoy being wrong. phew
21:59:58 <kmc> shachaf: the west is the best. ride the snake seven miles
22:00:42 <fizzie> Incidentally, I'm going to a conference in Portland, Oregon, United USA of America after a month and a bit. Isn't that on the west side, more or less?
22:00:45 <fizzie> Not quite coast, though.
22:00:58 <shachaf> fizzie: That's pretty west.
22:01:07 <mroman> ^bf +[>++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>.[-]<[-]<[-]<]
22:01:08 <fungot> learn2.
22:01:16 <shachaf> fizzie: You should go to San Francisco, California, United USA of America!
22:01:20 <mroman> ^bf +[>++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>.[-]<[-]<[-]<[-]<]
22:01:21 <fungot> learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.lear ...
22:01:44 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't want to wear flour in my hair, though.
22:01:54 <Sgeo_> I sort of like how Tcl, if someone wants to do byref stuff, requires explicitness on both sides
22:01:57 <shachaf> fizzie: I don't believe that's a requirement.
22:02:05 <Sgeo_> Although C# has that use case covered more cleanly
22:02:09 <fizzie> I heard you have to, if you're going to San Fran Cisco.
22:02:17 <mroman> ^bf +[>++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>.[-]<[-]+<[-]<[-]<]
22:02:17 <fungot> learn2.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.learn3.lear ...
22:02:34 <shachaf> fizzie: You can't believe everything you hear.
22:02:37 <mroman> afk
22:02:55 <oerjan> ^+[->[>++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>.[[-]<]+]
22:03:02 <oerjan> ^bf +[->[>++++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>.[[-]<]+]
22:03:03 <fungot> Mismatched [].
22:03:10 <oerjan> oops
22:03:27 <kmc> Sgeo_: yeah, i like that feature in C#
22:03:32 <kmc> though i haven't used C# very much
22:03:46 <oerjan> ^bf +[+++++++++[>+++++++++++>+++++>+><<<<-]>--.-------.----.+++++++++++++++++.----.>.>.[[-]<]+]
22:03:47 <fungot> learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.learn2.lear ...
22:03:49 <coppro> C has that same feature
22:03:58 * Sgeo_ vaguely wonders if upvar has other uses in Tcl
22:03:59 <shachaf> What feature in C#?
22:04:00 <fizzie> It's far easiest if you just use the input bit.
22:04:01 <fizzie> ^bf ,[>,]<[[<]>[.>]<]!lern2
22:04:02 <fungot> lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2lern2le ...
22:04:10 <kmc> coppro: except it's tied up with several other concepts in C
22:04:30 <Sgeo_> shachaf, you can pass in variables by reference, but need to be explicit about it both when calling the function and when writing the function.
22:04:49 <shachaf> Oh.
22:04:58 <coppro> kmc: well sure
22:05:24 <kmc> also you can declare an "out" reference
22:06:01 <kmc> which means the caller is not required to initialize the variable in that argument position
22:06:06 <kmc> but otoh the callee is required to assign it
22:06:15 <kmc> (i'm not sure where or how exhaustively these things are checked)
22:06:50 <kmc> i like that the London area has a unified fare structure for all rail transport
22:07:16 <kmc> you can use mainline intercity trains to get around town and it costs the same as a Tube trip between the same pair of zones
22:07:32 <Sgeo_> On the other hand, calling such a function in Tcl is less syntactically ugly than in C#
22:07:33 <Sgeo_> Arguably
22:07:42 <Sgeo_> But uglier to write
22:07:48 <Sgeo_> (To write the function)
22:09:35 <kmc> i think new york would benefit from this feature
22:09:47 <kmc> although there are far fewer mainline rail stations overall
22:10:03 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: upvar can seek up to an arbitrary point in the stack. With some nasty, nasty hacking you could get it so you could pretend to have dynamic scope in Tcl.
22:10:16 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, you're not allowed to use the actual long-distance trains at all to get from Helsinki central railway station to Pasila/Tikkurila where they also stop mostly to pick up more passengers for which getting to those stations is easier than going to the centrum.
22:10:36 <pikhq_> Or other, worse things.
22:10:50 <itidus21> ^bf ,[>,]<[[<]>[.>]<<+>]!lern2
22:10:51 <fungot> lern2lero2lerp2lerq2lerr2lers2lert2leru2lerv2lerw2lerx2lery2lerz2ler{2ler|2ler}2ler~2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2ler2le ...
22:10:54 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:10:57 <itidus21> d'oh
22:11:05 <nortti> :O
22:11:12 <Sgeo_> Why not, for fake dynamic scope, just have a command that sets the variable, runs the passed script, then resets the variable back to where it was?
22:11:22 <Sgeo_> Or am I missing something in what dynamic scope is?
22:11:24 <kmc> fizzie: do they actively prevent you from getting on, or they just won't sell you a ticket
22:11:30 -!- kallisti has joined.
22:11:31 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host).
22:11:31 -!- kallisti has joined.
22:11:37 <kmc> sometimes when there are two stations at the end of an intercity line, it means they never check tickets between those two stations
22:11:45 <kmc> so you can get away with riding for free
22:12:19 <itidus21> ^bf ,[>,]<[[<]>[.>]<+]!lern2
22:12:19 <fungot> lern2lern3lern4lern5lern6lern7lern8lern9lern:lern;lern<lern=lern>lern?lern@lernAlernBlernClernDlernElernFlernGlernHlernIlernJlernKlernLlernMlernNlernOlernPlernQlernRlernSlernTlernUlernVlernWlernXlernYlernZle ...
22:12:46 <fizzie> kmc: I don't think they sell a ticket, and I have a feeling they watch for passengers getting off on those boarding-only stations, but that's just a feeling. They never manage to check tickets that early, no.
22:13:20 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: proc bar {set x foo; foo};proc foo {puts $x};bar in a dynamic-scoped Tcl would work.
22:13:36 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: With any number of stack levels between foo and bar, assuming none of them modified x, in fact.
22:13:54 <kmc> Sgeo_: i believe that's how Scheme's fluid-let works
22:14:03 <kmc> (MIT/GNU Scheme, anyway)
22:14:33 <fizzie> People do ride the local trains for free, too, and it's very possible it's economically a rational thing to do, since there's only limited amount of people doing ticket-checking, and it's a fixed cost of something like 65 EUR if you get caught.
22:14:43 <kmc> but it needs to use dynamic-wind in order to deal with continuations properly
22:14:43 <fizzie> Oh, 80 EUR now.
22:14:54 <kmc> and dynmaic-wind is insane dark magic
22:15:01 <kmc> also it doesn't work well with concurrency
22:15:26 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, had to fix your syntax, but why isn't it working (if I set x "" beforehand)?
22:15:30 <Sgeo_> Isn't x a global variable?
22:15:45 <itidus21> fizzie: it ends up breaking even, which is their plan all along.... :D
22:16:05 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Why would it be?
22:16:44 <Sgeo_> Well, it would be if I do set x "" before running the procs? Oh, if I use global maybe it will work
22:17:17 <Sgeo_> (System32) 20 % unset x
22:17:17 <Sgeo_> (System32) 21 % proc bar {} {global x; set x foo; foo};proc foo {} {global x; puts $x};bar
22:17:17 <Sgeo_> foo
22:17:30 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: You're missing the point.
22:17:31 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Entirely.
22:18:20 <Sgeo_> :/
22:18:34 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: In a dynamic-scoped languages, functions can access locals of calling functions. bar(){char *x = "foo";} foo(){printf("%s, x);} would work in dynamic-scoped C.
22:18:38 <pikhq_> Erm.
22:18:49 <pikhq_> bar(){char *x = "foo"; foo();} foo(){printf("%s, x);}
22:19:09 <kmc> pikhq_: is that really a requisite?
22:19:25 <kmc> you can have a language where functions have local variables and also variables inherited by callees
22:20:33 <kmc> also i wouldn't call Python a dynamic-scoped language, but you *can* access caller's variables by sufficient dark magic
22:20:36 <pikhq_> kmc: Then only the inheritable variables would be of dynamic scope, but... Yeah, that works.
22:21:03 <kmc> so i would say dynamic scope is a property of a variable and not really of a language
22:21:06 * variable does a jig
22:21:20 <pikhq_> The same is true of Tcl: the call stack is inspectable...
22:21:27 <kmc> i have even seen semi legitimate uses of this feature in python
22:21:43 <pikhq_> kmc: Dynamic scope as a language property would mean that all variables are like that, if it has any meaning at all.
22:21:44 <Sgeo_> The corresponding feature in Tcl is probably more frequently used
22:21:57 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Yes, but only for pass-by-reference.
22:22:22 <pikhq_> And upvar only peeks one level up the stack.
22:22:24 <kmc> for EDSLs say
22:22:38 <pikhq_> Rather than as many levels as is necessary to find a variable with that name.
22:22:58 <fizzie> SRFI 39 -- http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-39/srfi-39.html -- does kind of explicitly dynamic-scoped things in Scheme.
22:23:15 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, was going to say no it can look at any level, but yeah, doesn't keep searching
22:23:52 <Sgeo_> Could probably loop or something to find it
22:25:02 <pikhq_> Yeah. Combine uplevel and info vars, I guess.
22:32:15 <Sgeo_> kmc, I'm now curious how you access a caller's variables in Python
22:33:37 <kmc> sys._getframe
22:33:45 <kmc> "CPython implementation detail: This function should be used for internal and specialized purposes only. It is not guaranteed to exist in all implementations of Python."
22:33:51 <kmc> so i'm stretching the truth a bit
22:34:45 <Sgeo_> Blah
22:35:01 <Sgeo_> Tcl seems to be more introspectiony, I guess?
22:36:53 <kmc> my friend had an EDSL which worked like run('x + y')
22:37:13 <kmc> where that code 'x + y' is code for the embedded language, not for Python, but should have access to python variables named x and y
22:37:36 <kmc> run('x + y', {'x': x, 'y': y}) is pretty shitty
22:37:40 <elliott> fizzie: Re the sauna death thing: "As Kaukonen and Ladyzhensky were disqualified for not leaving the sauna unaided, Ilkka Pöyhiä became the winner.[10]"
22:37:46 <kmc> but perhaps run('x + y', locals()) is the reasonable compromise
22:37:47 <elliott> I'm not sure I think much of the organisers of this thing.
22:38:06 <elliott> kmc: I was about to say, just use locals().
22:38:17 <elliott> (Or just don't do that in the first place. But.)
22:38:29 <kmc> you can also do run('x + y', x=x, y=y)
22:39:01 <elliott> "Kaukonen woke up from a coma two months after the event. His respiratory system was scorched, 70% of his skin was burnt and eventually his kidneys failed as well."
22:39:03 <elliott> jesus christ
22:39:10 <elliott> imagine passing out in a sauna and waking up two months later
22:39:26 <elliott> "also, hey, the other guy in that sauna died"
22:40:10 <Sgeo_> Should I feel odd that Tk interacts with the main program by modifying global variables
22:40:17 <kmc> yes
22:41:21 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait what how
22:41:21 <kmc> you should feel dirty
22:43:29 -!- Nisstyre has joined.
22:49:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, the list of unusual deaths.
22:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> My old friend.
22:49:43 <elliott> <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, wait what how
22:49:43 <elliott> ?
22:50:01 <Phantom_Hoover> sauna
22:50:14 <fizzie> elliott: Rules are rules, after all.
22:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm why would his kidneys fail.
22:52:51 -!- spirity has joined.
22:52:58 <spirity> Gregor: hi what was the fix for frink in umlbox?
22:53:41 <spirity> I have /etc and /var mounted because I doesn't afraid of anything
22:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ~eris... I recognise that host.
22:56:14 <spirity> sssshhhh
22:56:17 <spirity> I'm hiding from someone
22:56:30 <spirity> (not on this channel)
22:56:32 * spirity secretive.
22:57:23 <Phantom_Hoover> YOUR SITE IS SINGULARLY UNHELPFUL
22:57:50 <spirity> correct!
22:58:02 <spirity> it's my dark information nexus
22:58:05 <spirity> hidden from the world.
22:58:07 <spirity> part of the dark net.
22:58:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oh
22:58:27 <spirity> imagine a secret lair, but significantly more boring.
22:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> does it have paedophiles and assassins to kill the paedophiles and drugs for the assassins to psyche themselves up
22:58:51 <kmc> the swan and paedo
22:58:55 <spirity> yes it has all of thse things and more.
22:59:10 <spirity> the paedophiles get high on the brains of assassins
22:59:14 <oerjan> kallisti: wait this isn't you... or elliott.
22:59:21 * oerjan is now confused.
22:59:59 <spirity> and then they chant the evil chant that summons the IRC daemons
23:00:02 <oerjan> hm wait...
23:00:13 * oerjan changes from confused to suspicious
23:00:21 <spirity> which is the medium through which we are communicating.
23:00:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Eurgh OK seriously what's your normal nick
23:00:34 <spirity> via daemons
23:00:43 * impomatic chants
23:00:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Or at least tell us something to guess
23:00:55 <elliott> oerjan: what
23:00:55 <spirity> shitting dick nipples.
23:01:06 <elliott> it's obviously kallisti
23:01:08 <elliott> if anyone is wondering
23:01:17 <oerjan> elliott: well you were hiding. but i see you have lost your _'s
23:01:17 <spirity> I wasn't
23:01:20 <impomatic> Does anyone use Joy?
23:01:25 <elliott> if you didn't realise that immediately you're kind of dumb and should be ashamed
23:01:26 <spirity> Gregor: COME HERE AND ANSWER MY QUESTIOIN THANKS
23:01:31 <elliott> oerjan: said person is currently offline
23:01:32 <oerjan> elliott: yes but kallisti is present
23:01:39 <spirity> it's magick
23:01:48 <spirity> I have multiple internets through which to invoke the daemons.
23:02:32 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, argh right.
23:02:45 <spirity> elliott: you probably know
23:02:47 <elliott> oerjan: right because there are two people with username eris who are using umlbox
23:02:48 <elliott> and frink
23:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought him but I think I confused his cloak for his host.
23:02:54 <spirity> what was the thing that was needed for frink to run in umlbox
23:02:55 <elliott> and talk like that
23:03:07 <elliott> spirity: i don't recall anything having to be changed...
23:03:11 <elliott> grep the logs if you want
23:03:13 <elliott> `pastelogs frink
23:03:24 <spirity> well there's a mountpoint for openjdk in the source.
23:03:31 <spirity> but I have all of that stuff mounted so it's available.
23:03:46 <HackEgo> No output.
23:03:57 <spirity> (the source = hackbot source)
23:04:03 <spirity> `paste bin/frink
23:04:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2576
23:04:12 <spirity> HackEgo: thanks
23:04:37 <spirity> `paste lib/frink
23:04:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16755
23:04:42 <spirity> HackEgo: thanks
23:05:30 <oerjan> to frink, perchance to dream
23:06:03 <spirity> this ia a binary
23:06:21 <oerjan> ia ia fhtagn
23:06:29 <spirity> I am using a .jar
23:06:32 <spirity> so maybe I should find this binary.
23:11:50 <elliott> spirity: oh that lib/frink is uh
23:11:53 <elliott> a compiled version of frink I made
23:11:54 <elliott> I think with gcj
23:12:01 <elliott> there's instructions on the frink site
23:12:02 <elliott> for how to do it
23:12:06 <elliott> except they're sort of spotty
23:12:09 <elliott> you use the jar I think
23:12:16 <spirity> is it amd64?
23:12:21 <spirity> because I could just, like, steal it.
23:12:23 <elliott> idk
23:12:52 <spirity> `run uname -a
23:12:54 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.0.8-umlbox #2 Sun Nov 13 21:30:28 UTC 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
23:12:59 <spirity> looks to be
23:14:24 <spirity> I have no idea if this will help me with my problem
23:14:28 <spirity> it's probably just some java configuration issue.
23:14:50 <spirity> but it runs fine outside of the sandbox
23:14:52 <spirity> no output inside
23:17:16 -!- nortti_ has joined.
23:17:35 <spirity> nortti_: what did you need daemons for again?
23:18:45 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:21:11 <spirity> okay that didn't work either.
23:21:22 <spirity> perhaps frink exceeds my 500MB memory limit?
23:21:29 <spirity> ..
23:22:23 <spirity> nope. that's not the problem
23:22:41 <nortti_> frink? isn't that package manager for OS X?
23:22:41 -!- impomatic has left.
23:23:10 <nortti_> "Here we can see the Border Patrol watching over the border between the United States and the United States."
23:23:13 <spirity> `run lib/frink --help
23:23:21 <HackEgo> Can't open file --help
23:23:38 <spirity> `run lib/frink -help #?????
23:23:48 <HackEgo> Can't open file -help
23:23:51 <spirity> um
23:23:58 <spirity> frink is a calculator / programming language
23:24:15 <spirity> `frink 500 USD -> dollars_1960
23:24:25 <HackEgo> Error when reading Consumer Price Index file from FTP site. \ Will use static file for historical U.S. currency conversions. \ 65.329184047319517095
23:26:05 <spirity> nortti_: why did you need daemons from the sandboxing?
23:26:28 <nortti_> whar?
23:26:46 <spirity> you mentioned needing to be able to run daemons inside the sandbox
23:26:50 <spirity> to do the emulator thing
23:28:12 <nortti_> oh. the simh thing. well it would be bit impractical to restart entire os every time command is executed
23:28:49 <spirity> that's essentially what umlbox does, if I understand correctly
23:29:10 <kmc> displaying money to 18 decimal places is a bit excessive
23:29:24 <copumpkin> wow
23:29:30 <spirity> nortti_: is it not possible to pipe into a login shell after starting the sandbox?
23:29:32 <kmc> that's a cool feature though
23:29:43 <kmc> `frink 1 dollars_1920 -> USD
23:29:53 <HackEgo> Error when reading Consumer Price Index file from FTP site. \ Will use static file for historical U.S. currency conversions. \ 11.32725
23:30:02 <nortti_> spirity: what do you mean?
23:30:27 <spirity> nortti_: well simh itself is a sandbox, right? there's no need to use any other sandboxing mechanism.
23:30:37 <nortti_> yes
23:30:57 <spirity> so you could just communicate with the login shell that you startup with. somehow.
23:31:02 * spirity hasn't looked at how simh works.
23:31:05 <nortti_> hmm
23:31:36 <spirity> you'd need to restart it whenever it dies, of course.
23:32:14 <elliott> <kmc> displaying money to 18 decimal places is a bit excessive
23:32:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:32:15 <elliott> imo not enough
23:32:21 <nortti_> well I am trying to figure out how to do it without simh destrying the input stream
23:32:23 <elliott> frink is really cool though
23:32:27 <spirity> needs infinite precision CReal
23:32:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:32:56 <spirity> nortti_: how does it destroy the input stream.
23:33:23 <nortti_> it randomly cuts off chars from it
23:33:27 <pikhq_> -!!((col & 0xFF000000) ^ 0xFF000000) Not-revolting restatements, anyone?
23:33:35 <nortti_> if it is from pipe
23:34:37 <kmc> yes it should display the number out to a precision where, if one person had purchased one more grain of rice in the year in question, the number would change
23:34:45 <pikhq_> (the effect of that, BTW, is: if the high byte is not 0xFF, 0, otherwise 0xFFFFFFFF)
23:34:52 <pikhq_> (and yes I want it branchless)
23:35:10 <spirity> nortti_: that's odd.
23:35:19 <nortti_> yeah
23:35:56 <nortti_> it is realated to certain flags about ttys
23:40:06 <oerjan> pikhq_: would using == not be branchless?
23:40:54 <oerjan> -((col >> 24)!=0xFF)
23:41:05 <oerjan> oops
23:41:10 <coppro> oerjan: depends on how your compiler implements that
23:41:15 <oerjan> * -((col >> 24)==0xFF)
23:41:30 <elliott> kmc: you can purchase individual grains of rice?
23:43:50 <spirity> kmc: should be hydrogen atoms
23:43:57 <spirity> since that's the most abundant substance in the universe.
23:44:03 <spirity> at the atomic level anyway
23:44:20 <spirity> anything less would just be impractical!
23:45:47 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", ~(unsigned)3);
23:45:52 <EgoBot> 4294967292
23:46:14 <oerjan> > showHex 4294967292 ""
23:46:15 <lambdabot> "fffffffc"
23:46:36 <spirity> I didn't realize (unsigned) was a valid cast.
23:46:45 <spirity> I should probably get "The C Programming Language" and read that thing.
23:47:12 <oerjan> it probably doesn't make a difference there, but just in case
23:47:24 <elliott> spirity: why wouldn't it be?
23:47:29 <elliott> unsigned is the same as unsigned int
23:47:34 <spirity> ah right.
23:47:34 <elliott> just like "long" is "long int"
23:47:40 <spirity> I forgot "unsigned" is a valid type.
23:48:33 * spirity also recently learned that you can't use aggregate types in selection statements.
23:48:47 <oerjan> pikhq_: -!((~col)& 0x00FFFFFF) is also shorter if i got that right
23:49:08 <spirity> elliott: are you familiar with Rust? I've been going through the tutorial.
23:49:55 <elliott> I know of it
23:50:16 <spirity> some of the concepts need some... work. but it looks promising.
23:51:39 <spirity> structural typing in particular is something that I'd like to see more of.
23:52:03 <pikhq_> oerjan: Mostly trying "not fucking insane"
23:54:39 <olsner> table[col >> 24]
23:55:33 <pikhq_> olsner: ... Tempting.
23:55:58 <elliott> olsner: that will be slower, won't it?
23:56:02 <elliott> the bitwise expr involves no memory lookups
23:56:28 * olsner does some handwaving and mumbles something about cache
23:56:47 <oerjan> pikhq_: -!((~col)>>24)
23:56:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:57:35 <pikhq_> Well. How long will the table be? 8 * 32 bits... 256 bits...
23:57:55 <kmc> why do so many sinks in the UK have separate faucets for hot and cold water
23:58:21 <kmc> it is completely unreasonable
23:58:23 <oerjan> pikhq_: i guess you think that's _more_ insane, right? >:)
23:58:30 <olsner> unfortunately I think you mean 256 * 32 bits :) but 256 bytes also works, if you sign-expand while/after reading
23:59:26 <zzo38> kmc: Why do you think it is unreasonable?
23:59:30 <olsner> or... 256 bits, yes, but then you'll also need to look up a bit position
2012-07-23
00:00:07 <kmc> zzo38: because you can't get water at an acceptable temperature for hand-washing
00:00:13 <kmc> which is to say, a mixture of hot and cold
00:00:32 <olsner> maybe, if you'd consider assembly, something like... bt (reads a bit vector, sets carry flag) followed by sbb 0 perhaps?
00:01:02 <oerjan> <oerjan> pikhq_: -!((~col)>>24)
00:01:18 <pikhq_> oerjan: Not right, removing the ~ makes it work
00:01:36 <oerjan> pikhq_: huh? the ~ is essential...
00:02:01 <pikhq_> But it doesn't work right.
00:03:48 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -!((~0xFF012345)>>24))
00:03:50 <EgoBot> 4294967295
00:04:03 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -1);
00:04:06 <EgoBot> 4294967295
00:04:15 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -!((~0xFE012345)>>24))
00:04:17 <EgoBot> 0
00:04:24 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -!((~0x00012345)>>24))
00:04:26 <EgoBot> 0
00:04:36 <oerjan> pikhq_: that's what you said you wanted...
00:05:01 <pikhq_> *Weird*. Sticking it in my code base gives me the wrong mask.
00:05:38 <oerjan> it's a replacement for -!!((col & 0xFF000000) ^ 0xFF000000)
00:06:14 <oerjan> and it assumes, of course, that the bit width is 4 bytes and no more
00:06:31 * pikhq_ declares himself confused
00:06:38 <olsner> is col signed?
00:06:49 <pikhq_> No.
00:06:56 <elliott> <kmc> why do so many sinks in the UK have separate faucets for hot and cold water
00:06:56 <elliott> <kmc> it is completely unreasonable
00:06:59 <elliott> wtf do you do in the US
00:07:06 <pikhq_> oerjan: I'm dealing in uint32_t so it must be.
00:07:09 <elliott> <kmc> zzo38: because you can't get water at an acceptable temperature for hand-washing
00:07:09 <elliott> <kmc> which is to say, a mixture of hot and cold
00:07:25 <elliott> kmc: the hot tap works just fine, just don't dawdle... alternatively, mix the two in the sink
00:07:26 <oerjan> > 0xFFFFFFFF
00:07:27 <lambdabot> 4294967295
00:07:34 <kmc> elliott: uh you have a single faucet with two knobs, or a two-dimensional knob
00:07:40 <kmc> so that you can make it produce water of any temperature
00:07:42 <elliott> (but doing that all the time would be weird)
00:07:49 <kmc> elliott: fill up the basin and then wash my hands in it?
00:07:51 <kmc> that's ridiculous
00:07:52 <elliott> kmc: we have those in kitchens
00:07:55 <elliott> and yes it is
00:07:55 <kmc> gross and wasteful
00:07:57 <kmc> yeah and showers
00:08:00 <elliott> that's why you just use the hot tap
00:08:03 <pikhq_> (col & 0xFF000000) == 0xFF000000 ? 0 : 0xFFFFFFFF // This gives me what I want without being insane
00:08:09 <elliott> if you get scalded it is because you are weak and inferior
00:08:19 <kmc> yeh srsly
00:08:20 <oerjan> pikhq_: hm the ! might convert to some other bitsize?
00:08:25 <kmc> just like that sauna guy with the kidney thing
00:08:46 <kmc> i havent got scalded yet but it's still uncomfortable
00:08:51 <kmc> too hot water = too short hand washing
00:08:54 <kmc> = everyone gets plague and dies
00:09:09 <kmc> THAT HAPPENED HERE, WON'T YOU LEARN FROM HISTORY
00:09:12 <oerjan> pikhq_: does -(uint32_t)!((~col)>>24) work?
00:09:22 <spirity> elliott: so wait
00:09:23 <spirity> there are 2
00:09:24 <spirity> faucets
00:09:27 <spirity> on a sink?
00:09:36 <kmc> yes, separate faucets several inches apart
00:09:38 * spirity mind. blown.
00:09:42 <kmc> it's ridiculous
00:09:51 <elliott> spirity: yes
00:09:52 <olsner> spirity: I think usually they are on the opposite sides of the sink too
00:09:59 <spirity> what on earth
00:10:00 <oerjan> !printf("%u", -!0);
00:10:06 <kmc> http://pim.famnit.upr.si/blog/index.php?/archives/22-British-taps-1.html
00:10:14 <elliott> spirity: http://www.salvo.co.uk/images/userimgs/40375/Sink_52385_1.jpg except less old fashioned
00:10:15 <oerjan> !c printf("%u", -!0);
00:10:17 <EgoBot> 4294967295
00:10:18 <kmc> filling up the basin to wash your hands is ridiculous, inefficient, gross, and wasteful
00:10:33 <spirity> kmc: depends on how long you wash your hands
00:10:39 <kmc> anyway i disagree this "works just fine"
00:10:40 <elliott> http://www.bruceonshaving.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Sink-and-Mirror-by-Antonio-Lopez-Garcia-traditional-shaving.jpg
00:10:45 <elliott> <kmc> filling up the basin to wash your hands is ridiculous, inefficient, gross, and wasteful
00:10:49 <elliott> this was not a serious suggestion btw
00:10:50 <elliott> calm down
00:10:51 <kmc> you can make it work, it's still clearly worse than a single tap
00:11:06 <kmc> elliott: it's not just you, i am reading this suggestion all over the internet as i try to figure out this madness
00:11:17 <olsner> elliott: it sounded like you were serious about the separate faucets thing being a good idea
00:11:18 <kmc> it seems like everyone has their own urban legend for why it's done this way
00:11:24 <kmc> like someone says hot water is not necessarily potable
00:11:24 <elliott> I don't really see how it's wasteful per se though
00:11:33 <elliott> olsner: well I just do not care mostly
00:11:41 <kmc> elliott: because you use more water filling the basin
00:11:43 <elliott> I usually find the hot tap not hot enough for ages anyway
00:11:48 <kmc> maybe? i'm not positive
00:11:57 <olsner> I think washing hands in a bowl of water is how it was done in the days before running water
00:11:58 <elliott> kmc: are you sure? I suspect you use more when it just goes down the drain
00:12:05 <kmc> yeah i don't know
00:12:07 <olsner> so obviously you continue when you get the faucets installed
00:12:19 <kmc> hysterical raisins
00:12:20 <spirity> elliott: I changed the water heater in my apartment so that it's hotter.
00:12:45 <spirity> excellent choice.
00:12:49 <elliott> I usually use the hot tap and then rinse with the cold tap
00:12:51 <elliott> because I am weird
00:12:51 <spirity> now I can burn myself via the sink!
00:13:13 <spirity> like a real man.
00:13:22 <kmc> in some (old?) farm buildings, there are two taps
00:13:30 <kmc> but it's hard and soft water
00:13:33 <kmc> rather than hot and cold
00:13:45 <kmc> hard water from a well, soft water from rain collection
00:14:02 <kmc> possibly the hard water is non-potable and/or disgusting as well
00:14:09 <spirity> depends on the well.
00:14:18 <spirity> my parents have well water and it's perfectly fine.
00:14:23 <kmc> yep
00:14:33 <spirity> also tastes better than city tap, by far.
00:14:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Washing your hands with just the hot tap is easy anyway.
00:14:47 <elliott> I forget whether we have hard or soft tap water in Hexham.
00:14:50 <elliott> probably taneb knows
00:14:57 <spirity> firm tap.
00:15:21 <kmc> i'd tap that
00:15:29 <olsner> you probably have hard water, poorly filtered and full of whatever the thing is that you don't want in there
00:15:40 <elliott> "Information from the British Drinking Water Inspectorate shows that drinking water in England is generally considered to be 'very hard', with most areas of England, particularly east of a line between the Severn and Tees estuaries, exhibiting above 200 ppm for the calcium carbonate equivalent."
00:16:07 <elliott> olsner: if you're a conspiracy theorist, fluoride!
00:16:40 <kmc> i'd tap that for 2 mana
00:16:40 <spirity> anyone here use mosh?
00:16:45 <kmc> i use mosh
00:16:46 <spirity> I might set it up on my server, because ssh lag is killing me.
00:16:48 <kmc> also i'm one of the developers
00:16:51 <pikhq_> *Urgh*. Trying to blit stuff in seems to be slower than a conditional write.
00:16:54 <spirity> kmc: oh cool.
00:17:12 <kmc> happy to answer any questions :)
00:17:18 <kmc> we also have #mosh
00:17:25 <spirity> I was having issues with it until I set my locale properly
00:17:32 <elliott> I used mosh for a while
00:17:33 <kmc> i'm traveling all over europe, and mosh is making my life much happier
00:17:40 <elliott> I forget to use it lately
00:17:46 <kmc> spirity: ah -- the locale stuff got more automagic in mosh 1.2
00:17:51 <kmc> (if you're not running that already)
00:17:51 <elliott> but it is still set up on the server that runs esolangs.org
00:18:09 <spirity> kmc: that's what I'm running actually. I think my server was set up for ISO-blahblah by default
00:18:18 <spirity> but I switched to en_US.UTF-8
00:18:19 <olsner> elliott: what's that in degrees Clarke?
00:18:27 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )).
00:18:37 <elliott> olsner: idk !!!!
00:18:40 <olsner> or in german degrees of hardness?
00:18:42 <kmc> in mosh 1.2+, the client sends the locale-related environment variables to the server
00:19:14 <spirity> but the locale must be installed on the server, right?
00:19:17 <kmc> yes
00:19:21 <spirity> right, that was the issue.
00:19:28 <kmc> makes sense
00:19:30 <spirity> I now have /all/ the locales.
00:19:31 <kmc> what server OS?
00:19:35 <kmc> haha :)
00:19:35 <spirity> Debian testing.
00:20:07 <spirity> $ uname -a
00:20:07 <spirity> Linux spirity.org 3.2.13-grsec-xxxx-grs-ipv6-64 #1 SMP Thu Mar 29 09:48:59 UTC 2012 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:20:10 <spirity> this
00:20:28 <kmc> well that doesn't say much about the OS or locale settings ;P
00:20:34 <kmc> especially since you seem to be running a custom kernel
00:20:41 <kmc> :)
00:20:42 <spirity> not my doing.
00:20:57 <oerjan> pikhq_: it actually should be -!!((~col)>>24), i just realized i was confused by an erroneous "not" in your non-code explanation
00:21:03 <spirity> it's an kimsufi server (which is just a reseller of OVH) .
00:21:10 <kmc> in the long run i think mosh should switch to a dedicated unicode library, which doesn't care about system locales
00:21:18 <kmc> ah cool
00:21:24 <kmc> kudos to them for using grsec
00:21:35 <spirity> it's also insanely cheap. 15 euros a month.
00:21:53 <kmc> nice
00:22:06 <spirity> though the specs aren't great. I don't need awesome specs.
00:22:32 <zzo38> Can you use the C locale? On the Linux I use at Free Geek they use Unicode locale by default but I made it C locale and the CP437 characters on my account that make it work.
00:22:48 <oerjan> (just removing ~ will _not_ work if the top byte is neither 0x00 nor 0xFF)
00:22:53 <kmc> zzo38: Mosh is hardcoded for Unicode and UTF-8
00:23:09 <spirity> brb moshitizing my irssi
00:23:13 -!- spirity has quit (Quit: leaving).
00:23:25 <kmc> it uses the locale functions to get character properties such as width (zero, one, or two terminal cells) and for utf-8 encoding/decoding
00:23:31 <kmc> those things won't work in plain C locale
00:23:35 <olsner> hmm, if the english water is "generally considered to be 'very hard'", why do they use that scale? they should switch to a scale where most of england has the usual hardness of water
00:23:41 <kmc> some systems have a human-language-agnostic "C.UTF-8" locale
00:23:44 <kmc> but it's far from universal
00:23:53 <kmc> maybe it should go on some fallback list of locales to try
00:24:18 <oerjan> elliott: i've read that not having hot enough hot water tanks can breed legionella
00:24:46 <oerjan> i also vaguely recall seeing separate hot and cold faucets in norway, in ancient buildings.
00:25:16 <olsner> pikhq_: you should split out the alpha part from the rest of the image, then you only have to read 1 byte before you decide whether to read or write a color at all
00:25:27 <kmc> also machines don't even agree on the capitalization of "UTF" :(
00:26:13 <olsner> (you could further compress the alpha channel to eliminate more work)
00:26:13 <kmc> also some OSes still don't support UTF-8 terminals
00:26:15 -!- spirity has joined.
00:26:30 <kmc> whether you can backspace over a multi-byte character is a property of the *kernel*
00:26:33 <kmc> because UNIX is insane
00:26:52 <zzo38> The Swiss Ephemeris testing program is also hardcoded for UTF-8 so what I did is write a shell script, which, as well as including the current date, time, and location, also converts the UTF-8 degree sign encoding to the shift-out/shift-in encoding.
00:28:58 <kmc> fancy
00:29:19 <kmc> yeah, mosh also deliberately ignores the ISO-2022 character set shift codes
00:29:24 <kmc> which has been the subject of much controversy
00:29:38 * kmc wonders how many ISO specs he can describe from just the number
00:30:14 <zzo38> (Swiss Ephemeris testing program also lacks the ability to automatically select the current date and time, I don't know why that is, either)
00:30:16 <kmc> 646, 10646, 9899, 9000, 9600, 2022, 3103
00:30:50 <zzo38> What is mosh?
00:30:58 <spirity> fancy ssh thing.
00:30:59 <kmc> http://mosh.mit.edu/
00:31:01 * spirity best description
00:31:08 <kmc> "Remote terminal application that allows roaming, supports intermittent connectivity, and provides intelligent local echo and line editing of user keystrokes."
00:31:26 <kmc> it uses SSH for the connection setup, but the ongoing session runs over a new UDP-based protocol
00:31:47 <kmc> it has terminal-aware flow control as well
00:32:20 <zzo38> Could mosh be modified to support the non-Unicode mode?
00:32:31 <kmc> basically at every moment in time, the server is trying to update the client's terminal to the current state
00:32:36 <kmc> almost like a video conferencing protocol
00:32:52 <kmc> this also means it has terminal-aware flow control
00:33:04 <kmc> if a packet is dropped, you might not want to retransmit that packet; the terminal may have changed in the meantime
00:33:21 <kmc> if a remote command spews output, you get "snapshots" of that spew at whatever framerate your connection can sustain
00:33:23 <pikhq_> olsner: Hmm.
00:33:39 <kmc> rather than getting a lagged complete sequence of the output, like ssh
00:33:45 <kmc> this means mplayer -vo caca works much better over mosh
00:33:50 <kmc> which is a killer feature of course
00:34:18 <pikhq_> olsner: Drawing sprites and grid tiles seems to be pretty darned hard given how these things are specified.
00:34:18 <kmc> zzo38: could, but won't.
00:34:19 <kmc> "We're really not UTF-8 zealots. But it's a lot easier to correctly implement one terminal emulator than to try to do the right thing in a variety of difficult edge cases. (This is what GNU screen tries to do, and in our experience it leads to some very tricky-to-debug situations.) So mosh just won't start up until the user has everything configured for a UTF-8-clean pathway. It may be annoying, but it also probably reduces frustration down
00:34:21 <elliott> <oerjan> elliott: i've read that not having hot enough hot water tanks can breed legionella
00:34:24 <elliott> thx, real reassuring
00:34:45 <kmc> (n.b. that's KeithW's writing, I *am* something of a a UTF-8 zealot)
00:34:48 <elliott> <kmc> which has been the subject of much controversy
00:34:49 <elliott> seriously?
00:35:02 <kmc> zzo38: of course if by "non-Unicode" you mean ASCII only, then it will work fine
00:35:12 <kmc> except, you still need the locale to get that character info
00:35:16 <kmc> so no, it does not really work fine
00:35:18 <kmc> elliott: yes
00:35:33 <kmc> people have various software that wants to use ISO 2022 codes to draw line-drawing characters
00:35:35 <elliott> kmc: btw you got cut off at "frustration down"
00:35:51 <kmc> "... reduces frustration down the road. (Unfortunately an 8-bit vt220 and a UTF-8 vt220 are different and incompatible terminal types; the UTF-8 goes in underneath the vt220 state machine.)"
00:36:05 <olsner> elliott: that is why there's a minimum temperature for hot water systems somewhere slightly below the point that'll cause instant scalding
00:36:28 <kmc> elliott: much of this software can be convinced to draw them with UTF-8 encoded characters
00:36:35 <kmc> like any other character
00:36:52 <kmc> but, a) some software can't, b) some people are offended that they have to do this
00:37:13 <kmc> (for ncurses software you just set NCURSES_NO_UTF8_ACS=1)
00:37:14 <spirity> UTF-8 master race.
00:37:23 <kmc> yeah
00:37:40 <kmc> elliott: it's a decision to deliberately break compatibility in favor of pushing people slightly to a more sane state of affairs
00:37:44 <kmc> those are always tricky
00:37:54 <elliott> kmc: i am just surprised anyone actually cares about those things
00:37:54 <kmc> mosh generally prides itself on Correct™ terminal emulation
00:38:05 <kmc> and this is something of an exception
00:38:08 <elliott> kmc: or rather, that such people would care about mosh
00:38:21 <elliott> but I guess they only care about it insofar as they can complain about that aspect of it
00:38:21 <spirity> kmc: hm, does video conferencing software also use UDP?
00:38:31 <spirity> I'm unfamiliar with the use cases of UDP
00:38:49 <kmc> although keithw will tell you that certain "UTF-8 scholars" consider ISO-10646 to supersede ISO-2022, the way the New Testament supersedes the Old
00:38:53 <kmc> spirity: yes, often
00:39:12 <kmc> although the only thing which actually works on the Internet anymore is TCP over port 443
00:39:22 <kmc> so i imagine a lot of it falls back to that
00:39:29 <spirity> I've been thinking about a general purpose "streaming" protocol. something like mpd if mpd were more like http (that doesn't make any sense does it)
00:39:44 <kmc> spirity: you want UDP for video conf because you can keep rollin' past a dropped packet
00:39:48 <kmc> you don't need to retransmit everything
00:39:49 <spirity> right
00:40:02 <kmc> mosh is not quite the same
00:40:13 <kmc> in fact it will never display to you a terminal state which did not occur on the server at some point
00:40:31 <kmc> updates of the visible terminal state are atomic (ignoring the delay between mosh-client and your terminal emulator and X etc)
00:40:40 <kmc> but it doesn't do reliable retransmit either
00:40:53 <kmc> the states are indexed by an incrementing sequence number
00:41:04 <spirity> rapidly changing my irssi screen size tends to mes it up, I've noticed.
00:41:20 <kmc> the server remembers a range of the state numbers which it knows the client has saved
00:41:25 <kmc> and will base each new state on one of those
00:41:39 <kmc> and once the client knows the server knows it has a later state, it's free to drop an earlier one
00:41:45 <kmc> this is all in the paper on mosh.mit.edu if you want to learn more
00:41:54 <kmc> spirity: interesting, mess up how? and does it eventually fix itself?
00:42:08 <spirity> usually. I can't get it to do it again. :P
00:42:53 <zzo38> Then modify mosh so that it can be used with CP437 and shift-in/shift-out encoding of special symbols (I have written some files to make it work with Linux, one of them is a copy of "mzx_ascii.chr" from MegaZeux).
00:43:28 <kmc> apparently you can buy polish jaffa cakes in boston for $1 per 10
00:43:35 <kmc> which is not as cheap as the UK but pretty good for the US
00:44:01 <kmc> zzo38: did you read the rationale for being UTF-8 only
00:44:24 <kmc> which shift-in/shift-out encoding is this? ISO-2022 codes like \e(0 ?
00:44:24 <spirity> I feel like it's magically trained itself to not break anymore.
00:44:25 <spirity> or something.
00:45:01 <zzo38> kmc: I mean the ASCII codes for shift-in and shift-out
00:45:17 <kmc> ??
00:45:27 <zzo38> kmc: I did read the retionale for being UTF-8 only and I disagree. So if I ever use mosh I will make a non-Unicode version.
00:45:47 <kmc> oh, 0x0E and 0x0F?
00:45:57 <spirity> I've been spamming various xmonad key combos to rapidly reorient the window and nothing will make it do the same thing. in any case it was a really minor thing, the topic and notification bars in irssi weren't displaying, but everything else was fine.
00:46:02 <kmc> are the meanings of those character specified by ISO-2022?
00:46:17 <zzo38> Yes
00:46:21 <kmc> what do they do with CP437 under DOS?
00:46:29 <zzo38> I mean 0x0E and 0x0F. They do nothing under DOS.
00:46:31 <kmc> do they typically mean anything in a Linux terminal emulator?
00:46:42 <zzo38> In the Linux terminal emulator they do work.
00:46:47 <kmc> which part do you disagree with
00:47:14 <kmc> can you give me a command using 'printf' or such which would demonstrate the meaning
00:47:21 <kmc> printf '\x0efoo' and printf '\x0ffoo' do nothing special here
00:48:01 <kmc> zzo38: which part of the rationale do you disagree with
00:48:05 <zzo38> What terminal emulator are you using? Is it Linux, or is it another terminal emulator running under Linux?
00:48:12 <elliott> kmc: are they gourmet polish jaffa cakes
00:48:20 <kmc> zzo38: rxvt-unicode
00:48:38 <zzo38> Perhaps it doesn't work with Unicode?
00:49:07 <kmc> doesn't work in plain xterm either
00:49:12 <kmc> but it does work in the Linux vt console
00:49:36 <zzo38> Yes, it works in the Linux console.
00:51:11 <spirity> kmc: are you famiiar with RUDP?
00:51:39 <elliott> kmc: are you aware of [[In the UK, value added tax is payable on chocolate-covered biscuits, but not on chocolate-covered cakes. McVities defended its classification of Jaffa Cakes as cakes in court, producing a 12 inches (30 cm) Jaffa Cake to illustrate that its Jaffa Cakes were simply miniature cakes. McVities argued that a distinction between cakes and biscuits is, among other things, that biscuits would normally be expected to go soft when st
00:51:39 <elliott> ale, whereas cakes would normally be expected to go hard. It was demonstrated to the Tribunal that Jaffa Cakes become hard when stale. Other factors taken into account by the Chairman, Potter QC, included the name, ingredients, texture, size, packaging, marketing, presentation, appeal to children, and manufacturing process. Potter ruled that the Jaffa Cake is a cake. McVities therefore won the case and VAT is not paid on Jaffa Cakes in the UK.[8]
00:51:40 <kmc> spirity: no
00:51:40 <elliott> ]]
00:51:42 <spirity> seems like it could be suitable for a remote terminal, but I don't know much about it.
00:51:45 <elliott> this is the kind of thing that goes on in the UK
00:51:47 <kmc> elliott: yes i love this fact
00:51:50 <elliott> it is the best
00:51:59 <kmc> spirity: perhaps
00:52:05 <kmc> but Mosh doesn't even want guaranteed in-order datagram delivery
00:52:08 <elliott> like has there ever been a more entertaining case over whether taxes need to be paid or not
00:52:22 <elliott> imagine being one of the lawyers
00:52:37 <elliott> "OK, we need you to bake... a really big Jaffa Cake." "How big?" "The biggest Jaffa Cake."
00:52:48 <elliott> "But-" "WHO IS THE LAWYER HERE"
00:55:01 <spirity> kmc: how does mosh distinguish between connection loss and intentionally closing the terminal?
00:55:22 -!- david_werecat has joined.
00:56:05 <spirity> I guess that would be pretty easy to distinguish, actually.
00:56:17 <spirity> except the situation where terminal is closed while offline.
00:56:28 <spirity> the local mosh client, that is.
00:59:46 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
01:04:02 <zzo38> The files for CP437 in Linux includes: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/backup/load_mzx_ascii http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/backup/newunimap.1 and a copy of mzx_ascii.chr from MegaZeux
01:04:54 <kmc> spirity: yes, if you kill mosh-client while offline, the mosh-server process will keep running forever
01:05:07 <kmc> (mosh-client prints a message to this effect)
01:05:56 <kmc> also if the client machine kernel panics or battery dies or whatever
01:06:13 <kmc> and there's no way to reconnect to the orphaned mosh-server; you just log in and kill it
01:06:39 <kmc> currently if you want reconnection of this sort, you just run screen or tmux in mosh (which brings many other benefits)
01:06:51 <kmc> the exception is that a mosh-server which has *never* heard from the client will die after 60 s
01:07:39 <elliott> kmc: hmm, that seems solvable
01:07:41 <elliott> not sure how, though :)
01:07:58 <kmc> the fact that it hangs forever?
01:08:07 <kmc> well you can set an arbitrary timeout
01:08:21 <kmc> actually i think the best solution today is to use "mosh user@host -- screen -dr"
01:08:35 <kmc> then if you mosh in again, the old screen gets detached and the old mosh session dies automatically
01:09:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:10:04 <kmc> but there's really no way for the server to distinguish "client has died" from "client is off the internet but will come back in 6 months"
01:10:40 <kmc> as for reconnecting to the orphaned mosh-server, we've discussed that but it seems pretty complicated and has some tricky security implications
01:10:47 <kmc> and the screen/tmux solution seems fine
01:10:59 <elliott> kmc: the fact that you can't reconnect without an extra wrapper
01:12:28 <kmc> well you could add a way to talk to the old mosh-server from your new SSH session, say over a UNIX socket
01:12:39 <kmc> this sounds like a pain and is basically duplicating how screen/tmux already work
01:13:15 <kmc> or you could add a way to persist the session to disk client-side
01:13:25 <kmc> but this seems bad bad bad because you're saving the crypto key
01:13:34 <kmc> and because you need to be damn sure you never use the same cryptographic nonce twice
01:14:11 <kmc> so a stale client side state file (full disk anyone?) could compromise your session
01:14:46 <elliott> bleh
01:16:49 <kmc> actually i kind of want mosh to swallow screen functionality though
01:16:58 <kmc> because then you could have every multiplexed window saved client-side
01:17:02 <kmc> and avoid the lag when switching windows
01:18:05 <kmc> remember that any tricky shit with sockets needs to work on Linux (2.6.18 through 3.4, many distros), FreeBSD, OS X, and (soon) Cygwin and Solaris
01:19:57 -!- david_werecat has joined.
01:39:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
01:39:40 -!- copumpkin has joined.
01:40:14 <kmc> also hehe there are places where the london overground crosses under the london underground
01:40:37 <kmc> today i got off an overground train underground and went up some stairs to travel on an underground train overground
01:40:46 <kmc> (these being actually pretty arbitrary labels)
01:43:09 <spirity> probably historical labels.
01:44:13 <spirity> it would be nice if the US had a decent bus/rail transit system.
01:44:23 <spirity> at least on a regional basis.
01:45:44 <spirity> Atlanta in particular is notorious as a "vehicle only" city.
01:46:40 <spirity> Three major interstate highways converge in Atlanta: I-20 (east-west), I-75 (northwest-southeast), and I-85 (northeast-southwest). The latter two combine in the middle of the city to form the Downtown Connector (I-75/85), which carries more than 340,000 vehicles per day and is one of the ten most congested segments of interstate highway in the United States.[178]
01:55:21 <kmc> spirity: it's not exactly historical, but basically
01:56:20 <kmc> mainline trains are operated by various companies, according to franchises with the owner of the rail lines (which is almost but not quite the uk government)
01:56:54 <spirity> kmc: could SSP be used for audo/video streaming?
01:57:16 <kmc> Transport for London, who runs the Underground, set up such a franchise operator and got the franchise for various trains in the London area
01:58:08 <kmc> and that's Overground
01:58:29 <spirity> I don't think Skype allows roaming connections. SSP would
01:58:30 <kmc> the distinction between rapid transit and mainline rail is also a bit fuzzy; they share tracks in some places and other bits have change from one to the other
01:58:42 <kmc> spirity: yes, KeithW is very interested in doing that
01:58:44 <kmc> you can talk to him in #mosh
01:59:17 <kmc> spirity: yeah, a number of cities in the USA have okay rail rapid transit, but intercity rail is mostly a joke
01:59:42 <spirity> I've been thinking about the possibility of a UDP-based protocol for audo/video streaming (live or with playback) whose connections could be initializes over other protocols (such as HTTPS)
02:00:04 <kmc> only the northeast corridor from Boston to DC operates like a decent intercity line
02:00:14 <kmc> and i'm not even talking about Acela (which is a joke as far as high speed rail goes)
02:00:20 <kmc> just that the trains are frequent and more or less run on time
02:00:58 <kmc> spirity: I think that's how most VoIP, videoconferencing, etc. works
02:01:06 <kmc> look up SIP protocol
02:01:12 <kmc> and RTSP
02:01:18 <kmc> i don't know much but i can spout some acronyms
02:01:26 <spirity> I am lacking in the acronyms
02:01:51 <shachaf> Session Initiation SIP Protocol
02:01:59 <kmc> thanchaf
02:02:03 <spirity> also I read about an open video container format designed partially by Skype that's well-suited for streaming. I can't recall the name though.
02:02:06 <shachaf> noproblemc
02:03:10 <spirity> yep this sounds like what I was thinking of.
02:03:44 <spirity> you mean someone's aleady thought of that, and has more expertise than me? incredible
02:04:35 <spirity> oh... youtube supports RTSP. cool.
02:04:40 <kmc> really?
02:04:47 <spirity> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7937903/get-rtsp-url-from-youtube
02:05:54 <kmc> huh
02:05:58 <kmc> maybe that's used by their mobile player or such
02:06:13 <spirity> based on the m. prefix I would say so.
02:07:00 <shachaf> kmc: Did you write lots of XML and lots of Java full of casts and things to make the Android thing?
02:07:02 <spirity> sounds like an easy way to rip youtube videos off the site.
02:07:08 <kmc> Los Angeles makes me hopeful for city transit systems in the USA
02:07:14 <kmc> it's the quintessential car city
02:07:20 <kmc> and yet they've built a lot of transit in the past 20 years
02:07:26 <kmc> good projects that people use
02:07:29 <kmc> and are building a lot more
02:07:44 <kmc> one expects this will accelerate as gas gets more expensive
02:07:54 <kmc> but perhaps the govt will keep subsidising driving until we're too fucked to fix it
02:08:00 <kmc> shachaf: what Android thing?
02:08:30 <shachaf> Weren't you doing a few Android things?
02:08:32 <shachaf> One of them was mosh.
02:08:40 <shachaf> I guess that could've just been in another terminal.
02:08:44 <kmc> i got mosh to build with the android native toolchain somewhat
02:08:54 <kmc> someone else has added mosh support to a connectbot fork
02:09:04 <spirity> I know some people that livestream video conferences via Skype calls, but have a lot of connection issues.
02:09:07 <kmc> i don't know to what extent they used my work
02:09:08 <shachaf> I wrote a graphicapp and it was terrible. :-(
02:09:10 <kmc> anyway no Java or XML
02:09:13 <spirity> I wonder if I could set up something more reliable.
02:09:16 <kmc> for me
02:09:28 <kmc> also i did that GHC project for lol iPwn Studios way back when
02:09:32 <kmc> have they ever produced anything
02:09:40 <kmc> is Cale still "working for them"
02:09:51 * spirity crickets
02:09:54 <copumpkin> I think ipwn folded up
02:09:55 <kmc> do people still cite this 3+ years vaporware company as proof that Haskell is useful for gamedev?
02:10:02 <spirity> probably.
02:10:04 <kmc> ok, i'm not surprised :)
02:10:05 <shachaf> copumpkin: Oh, they did?
02:10:15 <kmc> they theoretically owe me some money
02:10:20 <copumpkin> I think ryan moved on to do something else in NYC
02:10:22 <copumpkin> not sure
02:10:28 <spirity> kmc: but do they legally owe you any money?
02:10:30 <copumpkin> kmc: sue 'em!
02:10:35 <kmc> not worth it
02:10:43 <kmc> i have enough money, and i'm not a vindictive person generally
02:10:49 <copumpkin> :)
02:10:52 <kmc> i don't think they acted maliciously, just very very flakey
02:10:54 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:10:59 <copumpkin> yeah, I got that impression
02:11:11 <kmc> spirity: unclear, i have a contract but they can argue i didn't deliver exactly what the contract says
02:11:19 <spirity> of course.
02:11:22 <kmc> i expect it would be an annoying fight for a small sum of money, if anything
02:11:25 <shachaf> copumpkin: You should come to the west coast with ddarius.
02:11:28 * spirity has ran into these kinds of problems as a freelancer.
02:11:34 <copumpkin> shachaf: I'm going to vegas next weekend
02:11:37 <copumpkin> close enough
02:11:39 <elliott> <copumpkin> I think ipwn folded up
02:11:41 <elliott> NOOOOOO
02:11:44 <kmc> i'm fortunate enough to have other sources of money, such that i don't have to fight for this one
02:11:44 <elliott> But how will I play that game.
02:11:45 <elliott> Thing.
02:11:47 <elliott> I don't even know the name.
02:11:53 <shachaf> "other sources of money"
02:12:00 <copumpkin> kmc sells drugs on the side
02:12:01 <elliott> "bloodknight", apparently.
02:12:03 <shachaf> It's from selling drugs, right?
02:12:09 <copumpkin> kmc: what happened to that 8-ball you owed me anyway?
02:12:12 <copumpkin> I never got it
02:12:13 <elliott> Hey kmc, drugs!!!
02:12:15 <spirity> kmc: I lost something like $2000 over a contract dispute. I have no other source of income :|
02:12:26 <kmc> :(
02:12:31 <kmc> haha copumpkin
02:12:32 <elliott> spirity: was this the spammers
02:12:35 <spirity> no.
02:12:45 <kmc> i've... sold drugs, but never for a profit. i think?
02:12:53 <Sgeo_> I think the trace variable stuff is interesting
02:12:53 <copumpkin> lol
02:12:54 <elliott> aw, I can't even mix told-you-so sentiments in with my well-wishes and sympathy then :/
02:13:00 <copumpkin> kmc only sells drugs at a loss
02:13:10 <kmc> we lose money on every vial we sell, but we make up for it in volume
02:13:18 <copumpkin> oh that's good
02:14:07 <spirity> my internet connection is actually too shitty for mosh to do its thing properly.
02:14:36 <spirity> (its thing being intelligent echo)
02:14:53 <kmc> yeah, it wants at least one confirmation of the echo before it predicts
02:14:55 <kmc> (per line)
02:15:02 <kmc> you can disable that with mosh --predict=experimental
02:15:04 <kmc> on new enough builds
02:15:09 <spirity> how experimental is that?
02:15:12 <kmc> then it will echo your password temporarily after you sudo :)
02:15:23 <spirity> oh good.
02:15:23 <kmc> well, the consequences are well-understood, but may be unpleasant as noted
02:15:25 <shachaf> kmc: Can I buy some drugs?
02:15:38 <kmc> also it will echo vim command letters into your document temporarily
02:15:39 <kmc> stuff like that
02:16:01 <spirity> luckily I live in a cave and shun all human company, so visible password echos probably aren't an issue.
02:16:28 <shachaf> kmc: 19:16 <Cale> shachaf: I'm still working for Ryan at the moment, though iPwn is on hiatus until he can get more funding for it. The game engine is fairly close to being done, so it would be a shame if we didn't find some way to finish it at some point.
02:16:34 <kmc> heh
02:16:37 <spirity> unless there's some kind of malicious screencapture AI on my system, but I think I would notice that.
02:16:46 <kmc> yeah i think it's been fairly close to being done for 2+ years
02:18:34 <spirity> a JS backend for GHC needs to be a thing.
02:18:40 <kmc> it is a thing
02:18:56 <kmc> at least, was an experimental project for a while
02:18:58 <kmc> don't know what became of it
02:19:07 <kmc> possibly bitrotted like all the other cool haskell stuff :/
02:19:15 <spirity> yes. I believe that's what happened.
02:19:24 <kmc> there was a javascript project for uhc as well
02:19:28 <spirity> yes.
02:19:43 <shachaf> kmc: You should make a new Haskell compiler.
02:19:45 <spirity> there still is one, as far as I know.
02:20:00 <shachaf> There still is one, but there was one, as well.
02:20:02 <kmc> shachaf: i worked on one for a bit
02:20:08 <kmc> TriBeCa Haskell Compiler or THC
02:20:10 <kmc> never released
02:20:11 <spirity> ah, yes. indeed. I sometimes forget how time works.
02:20:14 <kmc> wasn't going to be very good anyway
02:21:03 <shachaf> No, I mean that you should make a good one.
02:21:26 <kmc> sounds like effort
02:21:58 <spirity> nah sounds easy. just quickly replicate all the features of GHC as a one-man project.
02:22:19 <kmc> well this doesn't involve solving any open problems in mathematics
02:22:19 <elliott> kmc: every time I think I should try writing a Haskell compiler again I remember edwardk talking about his compiler stuff
02:22:21 <kmc> therfore it is trivial
02:22:25 <elliott> and I give up automatically because how can you compete
02:22:29 <kmc> yeah
02:22:35 <kmc> by that logic you should give up on life though
02:22:38 <edwardk> i don't spend much time on it
02:22:43 <kmc> cause edwardk has done everything ;)
02:22:45 <edwardk> so you have plenty of time to get ahead
02:22:55 <shachaf> elliott: You should use "edwardk's compiler stuff"!
02:23:03 <shachaf> Didn't he release the type checker?
02:23:07 <kmc> i still really want to see a tracing JIT for Haskell
02:23:12 <shachaf> Or maybe not.
02:23:39 * spirity wants a structural typing extension in haskell.
02:23:46 <elliott> hey, I forgot edwardk was in here
02:23:53 <elliott> how can I talk about anyone behind their back if they are in here!!!
02:23:56 <elliott> everybody but kmc, get out
02:24:03 <shachaf> elliott: Better go to #thatotherchannel.
02:24:17 <edwardk> kmc: likewise. ed yang expressed some interest in it, but he seems to have been distracted
02:24:18 <elliott> apparently #thatotherchannel exists
02:24:21 <elliott> because ChanServ is in it
02:24:29 <spirity> #esoteric-portalchess (is that what I named it?)
02:24:32 <kmc> edwardk: i too am distracted
02:25:03 <shachaf> Distracted by Ireland.
02:25:08 <kmc> UK now
02:25:09 <shachaf> Maybe you're not in Ireland anymore.
02:25:12 <kmc> correct
02:25:13 <shachaf> Fine.
02:25:15 <edwardk> i've been toying with turbohaskell a bit lately, mostly because i'm currently rewriting our compiler for ermine, and the design is very similar to THC
02:25:16 <shachaf> Distracted by Island.
02:25:20 <shachaf> It's pronounced the same way anyway.
02:25:23 <kmc> I'm in Slough (please hold throwing of rotten vegetables until the end)
02:25:30 <edwardk> kmc: so what prompted the globe trotting?
02:25:41 <elliott> kmc is on the run for selling drugs at a loss
02:25:46 <shachaf> edwardk: Globe trotting needs prompting?
02:25:54 <kmc> today i walked around London
02:25:57 <elliott> (it's illegal to sell things for a loss in the US)
02:25:59 * shachaf ought to do some globe trotting.
02:26:03 <kmc> i rode the Emirates Air Line, not to be confused with the Emirates Airline
02:26:47 <spirity> fly emirates
02:26:50 <spirity> so fly.
02:26:52 <kmc> edwardk: my friend was putting together a trip to some cool places, and i haven't traveled internationally in too long
02:26:57 <kmc> spirity: like a G6?
02:27:11 <spirity> :|
02:27:13 <edwardk> fair nuff =)
02:27:20 <kmc> you can rent a private cabin on the Emirates Air Line for £86
02:27:34 * spirity wants a private log cabin.
02:27:38 <spirity> on an airplane
02:27:39 <kmc> (this is like a ski lift thing that takes a couple minutes to go over the Thames River)
02:27:46 <kmc> i don't know if it comes with champagne
02:28:10 <shachaf> It'd better.
02:28:26 <shachaf> Should I drink some champagne in a few days when I can legally do it?
02:28:40 <shachaf> I don't tend to like carbonated things so I probably wouldn't like it.
02:28:41 <spirity> you can't partake in the joy of human aviation without a log cabin and champagne.
02:28:58 <shachaf> spirity: The Emirates Air Line is not an airline.
02:29:11 <kmc> shachaf: champagne is ok
02:29:12 <spirity> oh, that's very confusing.
02:29:16 <kmc> lots of boozes are ok
02:29:18 <spirity> I got confused, like kmc told me no to.
02:29:24 <spirity> shachaf: what's the drinking age where you live?
02:29:35 <kmc> spirity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_Air_Line_(cable_car)
02:29:51 * spirity turns 21 in 4 days.
02:30:13 <kmc> congrats to both of you
02:30:18 <shachaf> spirity: I turn 21 in 3 days!
02:30:19 <shachaf> So hah.
02:30:38 <spirity> feel free to celebrate my birthday by sending me alcohol from your native country (can you even do that?)
02:30:43 <shachaf> Actually I've been able to legally drink for years.
02:30:50 <shachaf> Just not in the US.
02:30:54 <spirity> right.
02:30:59 <spirity> because history.
02:31:03 <elliott> now i know how old shachaf is
02:31:04 <elliott> joke's on him
02:31:06 <shachaf> elliott: :-(
02:32:03 <spirity> so I might just use this nick forever.
02:32:33 <spirity> I haven't decided.
02:32:42 <shachaf> Who's spirity
02:32:47 * spirity kallisti
02:32:47 <shachaf> Oh.
02:33:08 <variable> spirity: use one nick forever
02:33:11 <variable> now that's just silly
02:33:13 <shachaf> HEY EVERYONE, elliott WILL BE 17 IN PRECISELY 1 MONTH
02:33:17 <shachaf> UNLESS HE'S LIED TO US
02:33:22 <shachaf> WHICH HE PROBABLY HAS, COME TO THINK OF IT
02:33:31 <shachaf> BUT HE SAID HE WAS 16 ON 2011-08-22
02:33:35 <spirity> shachaf: also your, elliott's, and my nicks also all have the same length.
02:33:42 <spirity> this is a good property for a nick to have.
02:33:57 <ais523> shachaf: calm down…
02:34:14 <shachaf> spirity: What, being the same length as "shachaf"?
02:34:17 <shachaf> That's a good property.
02:34:24 <shachaf> Having the same letters as "shachaf" is also good.
02:34:25 <spirity> yes.
02:34:35 <spirity> it makes conversation better in that context.
02:34:35 <shachaf> ais523: I AM CALM
02:34:47 <spirity> similarly having the same length as edwardk's nick or pikhq_'s nick is a good property.
02:34:55 <shachaf> <kmc> calmer than you are
02:35:11 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
02:35:20 <shachaf> > length "pikhq_"
02:35:21 <lambdabot> 6
02:35:28 <edwardk> the funny thing is even when shachaf is typing in all caps on the channel i still hear him in my head with his quiet little in-person voice =P
02:35:51 <shachaf> edwardk: Ugh, you hear that voice?
02:35:56 <edwardk> =)
02:36:17 <kmc> it's weird to think that elliott is that young
02:36:22 <kmc> in my mind he's a jaded old man by me
02:36:25 <kmc> like me*
02:36:32 <kmc> where by old man i mean still quite young
02:36:44 <shachaf> edwardk: That voice goes away after I've known someone for a bit.
02:36:50 <spirity> you should imagine my voice with the sultry baritone of a radio host.
02:36:51 <elliott> i'm older than oerjan irl
02:36:54 <edwardk> fair nuff
02:36:57 <spirity> because that would corresponding well with my real voice.
02:37:12 <spirity> yes
02:37:12 <shachaf> elliott: Wait, oerjan isn't a jaded old (hu)man?
02:37:24 <elliott> oerjan is 14 (oerjan is actually like 40 or something i think)
02:37:31 <elliott> it would be really weird if oerjan was 14
02:37:36 <edwardk> yeah
02:39:49 <copumpkin> how young is elliott?
02:40:06 <copumpkin> oh
02:40:28 <shachaf> copumpkin: Did you know elliott = ehird?
02:40:31 <copumpkin> yeah
02:40:58 <kmc> shachaf: it's weird that you quote me quoting a movie
02:41:03 <kmc> and that you remember i said that
02:42:09 <shachaf> <kmc> <shachaf> self-identifying considered harmful
02:42:17 <kmc> -_-
02:42:54 <kmc> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/09/27
02:45:02 <Sgeo_> The Tcl solution to "I don't like global variables" seems to be namespaces
02:45:03 <Sgeo_> :/
02:45:14 <kmc> namespaces are great
02:45:27 <kmc> not exactly a substitut for lexical scope though
02:45:28 <shachaf> one honking great idea
02:45:33 <kmc> pychaf
02:45:47 <shachaf> #!/usr/bin/pychaf
02:46:53 <shachaf> kmc: Lexical scope is pretty great.
02:47:04 <elliott> namespaces suck, also variables suck, also programming sucks
02:47:10 -!- elliott has left ("and this channel sucks!").
02:47:19 <kmc> snap
02:47:21 <kmc> he got us there
02:47:54 <shachaf> gotuselliott
02:48:04 <shachaf> He's certainly old and jaded.
02:48:05 <shachaf> methuselliott
02:49:13 <constant> I love^W the people that say "global variables are bad" so... "I'll just stick them all into one singleton class"
02:49:31 <kmc> but it's a Design Pattern!
02:50:46 <copumpkin> the unsafePerformIO . newIORef pattern!
02:51:08 <kmc> c.c
02:51:13 <zzo38> copumpkin: I also hate that one.
02:51:25 <copumpkin> kmc hated it so much he made a library for doing it
02:51:33 <kmc> and then another library for avoiding it
02:51:41 <shachaf> What's the another library?
02:51:44 <zzo38> What kind of library for doing it, and what kind of library for avoiding it?
02:51:46 <Sgeo_> By sticking the variable in C?
02:51:59 <kmc> https://github.com/kmcallister/global-lock
02:51:59 <kmc> yes
02:52:05 <shachaf> Oh.
02:52:09 <shachaf> What's the library for doing it?
02:52:16 <shachaf> Oh, yes.
02:52:22 <shachaf> The whole thunk blackhole thing.
02:52:34 <zzo38> I made up a package called "extensible-data" which allow you to define fields wherever you want and it does not require IO
02:52:38 <kmc> i lost a lot of faith in Haskell as a production language when i learned that this widespread trick has been broken for a long time and nobody even noticed
02:52:48 <zzo38> (That includes define fields in different modules)
02:52:51 <kmc> it's not an extremely rare race condition either
02:52:56 <shachaf> kmc: Does the problem actually come up in practice?
02:52:58 <kmc> yes
02:53:08 <copumpkin> is it fixed now?
02:53:14 <kmc> i ran into it in something i was doing
02:53:21 <kmc> copumpkin: yeah
02:53:23 <zzo38> What would you think of the "extensible-data"?
02:54:44 <zzo38> With Data.Extensible.Product, you have something like a record type where the fields are defined anywhere including in any number of other modules which do not need to know each other, and the fields do not even have to be exported by that module if that is the only module using those fields of the record.
02:55:29 <spirity> shachaf: lexical scoping is great for most variables, but I manage to find uses for dynamic scoping in perl that reduce the amount of code I need to write.
02:55:38 <zzo38> Do you like this?
02:57:01 <zzo38> There are default values, and the module which defines the record type also defines what type the default values depend on. (The types of the fields are define in the module defining those fields, though.)
02:57:58 <spirity> kmc: are you familiar with lens-families?
02:58:05 <kmc> no
02:58:20 <spirity> I may or may not write a quasiquoter to completely redesign record syntax so that it automatically uses them.
02:58:28 <kmc> have fun?
02:59:00 <Sgeo_> I'm wondering if Tcl's love of global variables in namespaces should be enough to keep me away or not
02:59:39 <shachaf> kmc: You know lenses, right?
02:59:44 <kmc> i know about lenses
02:59:48 <kmc> i've seen edwardk's lenses package
02:59:53 <shachaf> Which one?
03:00:02 <shachaf> There's a new lenses package which edwardk says is better than the old lenses package.
03:00:10 <edwardk> well, at least the approach is better
03:00:13 <edwardk> not sure about the package ;)
03:00:22 <shachaf> edwardk: Eh, lens packages are throwaway.
03:00:41 <edwardk> i bundled the 12 lines i needed into my physics package directly, so i agree ;)
03:01:10 <edwardk> the nice thing about the van laarhoven lens families is that it doesn't matter if you actually use the library, since everything is compatible
03:01:51 <zzo38> Yes, now I know van Laarhoven lenses
03:01:55 <Sgeo_> I wonder how easy/difficult it would be to do some sort of lens thing in Tcl
03:02:01 <edwardk> @hpaste
03:02:01 <lambdabot> Haskell pastebin: http://hpaste.org/
03:02:28 <edwardk> http://hpaste.org/71982
03:02:36 <edwardk> is pretty much all you need to use them
03:02:45 <kmc> gotta sleep though
03:02:46 <kmc> ttyl all
03:02:53 <shachaf> whoa, weird
03:02:56 <edwardk> ?
03:02:56 <shachaf> @localtime kmc
03:02:57 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Sun Jul 22 23:03:33 2012
03:02:58 <shachaf> :-(
03:03:05 <spirity> edwardk: do you have any ideas for record syntax/semantics that would make use of Laarhoven lenses?
03:03:06 <shachaf> I guess that won't tell me much.
03:03:12 <shachaf> @localtime elliott
03:03:13 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Mon Jul 23 04:04:49
03:03:14 <shachaf> There we go.
03:03:17 <kmc> shachaf: my IRC client is in UTC-4 but i'm in UTC+1
03:03:25 <edwardk> spirity: the SORF/DORF issue is largely orthogonal to them, so you can use them with either
03:03:31 <zzo38> Can you make van Laarhoven lenses from other categories?
03:03:42 <edwardk> spirity: you do lose multi-field polymorphic update but thats fairly minor
03:03:50 <edwardk> i have no intuition for the laws for them there
03:03:50 <kmc> elliott standard time
03:03:51 <spirity> shachaf: how does lambdabot figure that out?
03:04:01 <kmc> 23:03 lambdabot [~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com] requested CTCP TIME from kmc:
03:04:21 <shachaf> spirity: Careful analysis of your activity in the logs.
03:04:40 <edwardk> its just doing: /ctcp kmc time
03:04:45 <spirity> ah yes, machine learning.
03:05:06 <shachaf> <CTCP>HI <CTCP>
03:05:08 <shachaf> Oops.
03:05:08 <kmc> which in turn is something like /msg kmc ^ACTCP TIME^A
03:05:11 <edwardk> =P
03:05:17 <kmc> where the ^A is an actual 0x01 character
03:05:21 <kmc> (byte?)
03:05:31 <kmc> (yeah, byte.)
03:05:45 <spirity> 7-bit ascii character, technically.
03:05:45 <kmc> god help you if you set your IRC client to UTF-16
03:05:49 <shachaf> Which in turn is PRIVMSG :kmc ^ACTCP TIME^A
03:05:53 <shachaf> kmc: It's still a byte.
03:06:02 <shachaf> The IRC protocol is specified in bytes.
03:06:05 <kmc> yeah
03:06:13 <kmc> but iS CTCP specified in bytes?
03:06:22 <shachaf> Oh.
03:06:23 <kmc> sadly i do not care at the moment
03:06:31 <kmc> but perhaps tomorrow
03:07:19 <shachaf> Accoridng to http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/ctcpspec.html it looks like it's a byte.
03:07:23 <shachaf> In particular, an octet.
03:08:40 <spirity> edwardk: oh, hm, DORF is a lot like structural typing.
03:09:29 <spirity> because you can constrain types based on what record fields are accessible.
03:09:32 <edwardk> the main thing you get out of the new polymorphic lens support is independence from actually caring what the lens library is, because you can compose them with Prelude (.) and id, and build them with the Prelude's Functor class
03:09:39 <edwardk> sure
03:10:09 <shachaf> edwardk: Well, you sort of had that with (Control.Category..) and Control.Category.id before.
03:10:27 <edwardk> you did. but now you can compose them with getters, setters, multilenses, partial lenses, etc. directly
03:10:39 <edwardk> they can all be composed
03:10:51 <edwardk> (1 :+ 2, 3) ^. fstLens . getting magnitude
03:11:14 <edwardk> without any MPTC magic, etc.
03:13:32 <edwardk> actually kind of liking lenses in this toy physics engine
03:13:37 <edwardk> foo^.x
03:14:23 <edwardk> and things like quadrance (quat^.ijk)
03:15:02 <shachaf> edwardk: If ddarius moves out here, you'll have to admit that the west coast is the place to be.
03:15:08 <edwardk> maybe
03:15:57 <edwardk> the east coast still has one thing going for it… i have employment over here ;)
03:19:29 <spirity> edwardk: oh nevermind. if I'm understanding correctly SORF without the proxy type (using only the String kinded field name parameter) would act like structural typing, but DORF uses a proxy type that obeys module scoping rules.
03:21:58 <spirity> I guess that's better overall. It lets you hide fields.
03:38:06 -!- copumpkin has quit.
03:39:32 -!- copumpkin has joined.
03:51:35 -!- elliott has joined.
03:51:41 <elliott> i lied you guys are great
03:51:53 <copumpkin> maybe them, but not me
03:52:02 <oerjan> WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE REAL ELLIOTT
03:52:04 <elliott> edwardk: I remember you complaining about van Larravhrvoheorvn lens performance -- are the lens families better or do you just not care any more? :)
03:52:08 <elliott> oerjan: i was lying
03:52:15 <edwardk> actually i was wrong about their performance
03:52:17 <oerjan> ...okay
03:52:36 <edwardk> they turned out to have the same performance advantages as the store ones i liked
03:52:42 <elliott> neat
03:52:52 <elliott> I don't really like the lens families because their type signatures are so complex. :(
03:53:11 <edwardk> i don't like the signatures used by 'lens-families' per se
03:53:14 <edwardk> but i like lens families
03:53:29 <edwardk> the haskell 98 version i think is misguided
03:53:33 <edwardk> the types are unreadable
03:53:53 <elliott> it's still four parameters (IIRC?) rather than two with the unportable one, right?
03:53:57 <shachaf> elliott: am i gr8
03:54:02 <elliott> no
03:54:13 <edwardk> well, only if you need polymorphism, keep in mind, you can write a conventional lens and compose it with them
03:54:14 <shachaf> copumpkin: I'm with you!
03:54:37 <edwardk> type Lens a b = forall f. Functor f => (b -> f b) -> a -> f a -- and you're done
03:54:48 <elliott> Right.
03:54:57 <edwardk> i have lots of those mixed and matched with lens families
03:55:00 <elliott> But nobody is going to do that, because why would you define a less general form when you can just use the full thing?
03:55:02 <edwardk> since they all compose
03:55:09 <edwardk> well, when i have something like
03:55:19 <edwardk> real :: Lens (Complex a) a
03:55:25 <edwardk> that is a Lens, not a LensFamily
03:55:31 <edwardk> so you can use the less general signature
03:55:32 <elliott> Right.
03:55:38 <edwardk> i have lots of those
03:55:39 * elliott is dubious of the advantages of composing setters and getters, personally, but polymorphic update *is* nice.
03:55:52 <edwardk> the modifiers are really handy
03:56:05 <edwardk> and these compose with multilenses and partial lenses as well
03:56:11 <zzo38> What does it make if the Functor constraint is replaced with a different class?
03:56:29 <edwardk> zzo38: with Pointed you get partial lenses, with Applicative you get 'multilenses'
03:57:10 <edwardk> i'm less fond of those two abstractions personally
03:57:16 <elliott> edwardk: type LensFamily cls a b c d = forall f. cls f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b
03:57:17 <elliott> "perfect"
03:57:24 <edwardk> =P
03:57:35 <elliott> nobody tell /r/haskell or they'll rewrite Prelude to use that
03:57:53 <edwardk> type Family p a b c d = forall f. p f => (c -> f d) -> a -> f b is how i'd probably write it
03:58:13 <elliott> should probably call it "Thing" instead
03:58:17 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes of course usually you just want to have Functor there but nevertheless it can be made with others too
03:58:27 <elliott> I wonder what happens for cls = Comonad.
03:58:52 <edwardk> well, the thing that are more specific than Functor are when you start getting funny interactions with the lens laws
03:59:12 <zzo38> elliott: I was thinking something similar. I do not know if it can do anything special with duplicate and extract in this case
03:59:14 <edwardk> er things
03:59:19 <elliott> riht
03:59:21 <elliott> g
03:59:35 <edwardk> I suppose an Apply gets you a non-empty multilens
04:00:30 <zzo38> edwardk: Yes, well, I can see things of that type will not always be a proper lens, but is it possible to define lens laws working with another class?
04:00:31 <elliott> edwardk: btw, is the original Functor construction actually van Laarhoven's? I associate "van Laarhoven lenses" with exists r. a <-> (b,r)
04:01:09 <edwardk> elliott: twan defined the functor based ones, but he decided he preferred the isomorphism lenses
04:01:13 <zzo38> And what happen even if the class does not have Functor as a superclass?
04:01:35 <edwardk> zzo38: without Functor as a superclass you'd be hard pressed to comply with the lens laws ;)
04:02:01 <elliott> I like the isomorphism ones. But they seem to be fairly useless in that you end up just making Store-based lenses and converting them to that type.
04:02:01 <zzo38> edwardk: OK
04:02:16 <edwardk> the isomorphism ones are nice for expository purposes, but they are too much of a bitch to use
04:02:28 <elliott> What if you use Contravariant?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
04:02:37 <edwardk> elliott: go knock yourself out ;)
04:02:38 <elliott> What if you use... Eq1
04:03:35 <zzo38> What are the isomorphism ones?
04:04:24 <edwardk> newtype Lens a b = forall c. Lens (Iso a (b, c))
04:04:42 <zzo38> OK
04:05:01 <shachaf> What's Eq1?
04:05:04 * edwardk goes back to physics code
04:05:08 <edwardk> its one of my classes
04:05:10 <edwardk> in prelude-extras
04:05:13 <copumpkin> hpysics!
04:05:18 <edwardk> see its use in the examples in bound
04:05:20 <shachaf> Oh.
04:05:25 <ion> cophysics
04:05:30 <zzo38> I suppose then it is a proper lens if it is isomorphism
04:05:54 <edwardk> copumpkin: not using hypsics, writing part of a rigid body physics solver that lets me work purely functionally over the world state
04:06:08 <copumpkin> :O
04:06:28 <zzo38> Do you have anything for ephemeris with Haskell?
04:06:30 <shachaf> http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/prelude-extras/0.1/doc/html/Prelude-Extras.html
04:06:35 <shachaf> I like how that says "Documentation".
04:06:41 <edwardk> like in clojure?
04:07:02 <edwardk> they should be obvious =P
04:07:16 <edwardk> Eq1 is a higher rank version of Eq
04:07:27 <zzo38> O, you have Prelude.Extras and I have Prelude.Generalize
04:07:28 <edwardk> similarly Show1 and Read1, etc.
04:07:34 <elliott> edwardk: Are # suffices really Haskell 98?
04:07:45 <edwardk> elliott: yeah on operators they are
04:08:16 <edwardk> the extension just allows them to apply to normal identifiers and (# #)'s
04:08:25 <edwardk> they are otherwise a valid operator char
04:08:41 <edwardk> > let (#) = (+) in 1 # 2
04:08:43 <lambdabot> <no location info>: parse error on input `)'
04:08:46 <edwardk> bah
04:08:56 <zzo38> Is Prelude.Extras compatible with Prelude.Generalize?
04:09:06 <edwardk> > let ( # ) = (+) in 1 # 2
04:09:07 <lambdabot> 3
04:09:13 <edwardk> i have no idea what Prelude.Generalize is =P
04:09:22 <elliott> it's one of zzo38's exciting packages
04:09:45 <edwardk> it doesn't seem like there is any reason for a conflict
04:09:55 <edwardk> as long as you use Eq and Ord like the Prelude does
04:10:11 <zzo38> edwardk: It make many things generalize such as filter for MonadPlus and tail for MonadLogic.
04:10:24 <elliott> edwardk: Have you seen extensible-data?
04:10:38 <edwardk> Prelude.Extras just defines higher rank versions of Eq, etc. syb-extras defines Data1 to go with Typeable1, etc.
04:10:47 <edwardk> elliott: not off hand
04:10:54 <zzo38> And things such as maybeToList and listToMaybe are instead use convList from any Foldable to any Alternative
04:10:54 <elliott> Poor you.
04:11:06 <elliott> edwardk: You know more notation?
04:11:07 <ion> Instead of everyone writing an incompatible Prelude replacement, how about we implement an incompatible Prelude replacement generator to get any number of them easily?
04:11:13 <elliott> extensible-data is more notation: the package!
04:11:14 <spirity> I still have very little visual feedback in irssi over mosh.
04:11:41 <spirity> once my message exceeds the input buffer width it starts to slow down, because mosh won't attempt to predict anything with control sequences being sent.
04:11:43 <ion> @hackage extensible-data
04:11:44 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/extensible-data
04:11:48 <spirity> but --predict=experimental is too... experimental.
04:11:51 <edwardk> wow that strikes me as a remarkably bad idea =)
04:12:06 <spirity> maybe I type too fast for the internet.
04:12:26 <zzo38> What does --predict=experimental mean?
04:12:45 <spirity> it means "always attempt to predict local echo regardless of any control sequences that you receive"
04:12:54 <shachaf> elliott: more notation is a package now?
04:13:04 <shachaf> I guess that's more notation, but with less notation.
04:13:05 <spirity> so when I resize my window (which happens often in xmonad) my echo will be halfway in the output buffer, for a few seconds.
04:13:07 <shachaf> :-(
04:13:29 <elliott> @batsnuk
04:13:29 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
04:13:32 <elliott> @botsnek
04:13:33 <lambdabot> :)
04:13:48 <zzo38> What would you think about extensible-data package?
04:14:17 <shachaf> hear notation see notation do notation
04:14:58 <spirity> --predict=always seems to work pretty well, until my message exceeds the input buffer width (which happens often in xmonad)
04:15:08 <spirity> maybe my server just has really bad bandwidth..
04:15:45 * spirity talks more about stuff that no one else cares about.
04:16:08 <zzo38> spirity: I read it anyways.
04:16:57 <spirity> wonderful.
04:17:06 <ion> Well, i use mosh with success. I assumed you have a sucky 3G link clientside, but the issue being on the server sounds very strange.
04:17:34 <spirity> it's more likely my terrible ISP.
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04:17:58 <spirity> kallisti_: hi
04:19:48 <spirity> my average download rate is something like 3 mbps
04:20:06 <spirity> on a home wireless connection
04:20:36 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
04:21:24 <zzo38> spirity and kallisti_ both has same username and also both has same realname?
04:21:34 <spirity> strange coincidence.
04:21:43 <oerjan> DUN DUN DUN
04:21:44 <zzo38> Hostname differs.
04:22:09 <spirity> it might seem as though kallisti copied his irssi config onto his server and is using that, but don't be fooled.
04:22:14 <oerjan> there is no doubt about it. they must be - LONG LOST EVIL TWINS
04:22:30 <zzo38> Timezone differs.
04:22:43 <spirity> yes I'm in UTC
04:22:45 <oerjan> (yes, both are evil. you've got a problem with that?)
04:22:49 <spirity> kallisti is in EST, therefore we are different people.
04:23:23 <spirity> (actually does IRC use my IPs location or does it pull from locale settings?)
04:23:32 <spirity> IP location would probably be in CEST or something.
04:23:44 <spirity> timezone settings on the local machine are UTC.
04:23:48 <zzo38> Probably it decides timezone by the system timezone setting isn't it?
04:23:56 <ion> The TZ variable with a fallback to /etc/timezone or something like that.
04:24:22 <spirity> right.
04:24:54 <spirity> mosh suddenly got much better at echo, with no appreciable difference in clientside latency.
04:25:06 <spirity> silly internet.
04:27:40 <zzo38> Do you know if any exist MML for Csound? The numeric score format would seem difficult to write music.
04:29:50 <spirity> I don't
04:29:55 <spirity> I haven't used csound much
04:32:04 <zzo38> I also haven't used csound much, but I have done a little bit.
04:33:30 <zzo38> I am in the process of writing a MML for Impulse Tracker, and you can view the git repository if you want to.
04:34:50 <zzo38> (Impulse Tracker is DOS program, ModPlug Tracker is Windows program, ITMCK should work in any operating system supporting GNU C compiler.)
04:36:53 <zzo38> Maybe I should include a command #MEGAZEUX in a later version of ITMCK, which makes the syntax closer to MegaZeux's PLAY command. Impulse Tracker format is one of the formats that MegaZeux can play, so if someone want to write a background music for MegaZeux they may prefer to use the same syntax as sound effects do.
04:37:32 <spirity> does anyone know the purpose of a value attribute for a submit input in an HTML form?
04:37:45 <zzo38> spirity: To display the text, I think?
04:37:58 <zzo38> It is also sent to the server if that submit button is selected.
04:37:59 <spirity> I thought that was the inner text node's job.
04:38:28 <spirity> so if you don't specify a name for the submit button then nothing is sent in the POST request?
04:38:37 <spirity> this would be the behavior I want.
04:38:55 <zzo38> spirity: If no name is set, then the other fields are still sent but the submit button value is not sent.
04:39:02 <spirity> right
04:39:05 <spirity> good good.
04:39:15 * spirity has no idea why you'd want to send a name=value pair for the submit button.
04:39:25 <zzo38> If you set a name of the submit button, then the name and value of the submit button selected will be sent together with other form fields, but not other submit buttons.
04:39:39 <zzo38> spirity: Probably so that you can know which submit button is selected if there is more than one.
04:39:44 <spirity> ah yes
04:39:49 <spirity> that's a good point.
04:39:55 <spirity> I typically only see one submit button.
04:39:58 <spirity> didn't consider multiple.
04:43:20 <zzo38> Did you read what I have recorded the Dungeons&Dragons game I was playing?
04:43:49 <spirity> can't say I have. I've been busy procrastinating my actual work.
04:43:51 <spirity> as usual.
04:44:41 <zzo38> I have written a character background story too, by now. My character was in a slavery and then escaped when the game starts
04:45:09 <spirity> I'd like to find a good IRC channel for tabletop roleplaying, but I don't know where I'd find one.
04:45:30 <spirity> it would be very easy to manage character sheets via an IRC bot, perhaps with a web interface.
04:46:13 <spirity> I know how to implement this with the WoD system, but I'm unfamiliar with other tabletop systems.
04:46:21 <spirity> so I don't know what's required to make the interface easy to use in those systems.
04:46:36 <zzo38> I don't like to use it with a web interface
04:46:47 <spirity> it would be a convenience, integrated into the IRC bot.
04:46:58 <spirity> not everyone likes command line interfaces.
04:47:07 <zzo38> Is better if you need not open up the web browser and IRC at the same time
04:47:26 <spirity> there shouldn't be a need, it's simply a graphical interface for people who like those things.
04:47:33 <zzo38> OK
04:47:42 <spirity> though I can't imagine what writing a background story would look like via IRC.
04:47:52 <spirity> you'd need some kind of editor I feel.
04:47:59 <zzo38> spirity: Write text, sprunge, and paste.
04:48:01 <spirity> maybe a simple text file upload mechanism.
04:48:03 <spirity> yes.
04:48:43 <zzo38> spirity: Such as sprunge, for example. Sprunge can be used without any web browser, it is mainly used by the command-line interface, although you can use a web browser too if you prefer.
04:48:50 <spirity> yes I'm aware of it.
04:48:52 <spirity> I use it myself.
04:50:12 <spirity> cat file | sprunge | xclip
04:50:13 <zzo38> For RPG playing IRC I may prefer something like the "play-by-mail" system, but much faster, and you can use common text-adventure-games abbreviations such as I, X, L, N, S, E, and W.
04:50:22 <spirity> if I used a proper script instead of an alias I could have it support command line arguments as well as stdin.
04:50:30 -!- TeruFSX_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
04:50:33 <zzo38> spirity: Yes, like that.
04:50:56 <spirity> I'm not familiar with I and X
04:51:06 <spirity> I'm mostly familiar with MUD idioms.
04:51:41 <zzo38> I wrote a proper script for sprunge on Windows, to send a file you receive from stdin (although you can use < redirection too), to receive a file you use the command-line parameter giving the code (four letters) and then it go to stdout.
04:51:48 <zzo38> spirity: I = inventory, X = examine
04:52:00 <zzo38> And also Z = wait
04:52:14 <spirity> oh right I'm familiar with i
04:52:25 <spirity> I wasn't really considering implementing a full text adventure style game
04:52:38 <spirity> I was thinking more free-form style RP.
04:53:01 <spirity> you make a room, bot joins the room, you can roll via dice commands that are integrated into the character sheet system.
04:53:02 <zzo38> spirity: Yes it is free-form style including what I meant, simply these abbreviations would be understood by the game master manually.
04:53:18 <zzo38> And no bots, referee rolls all the dice, same as play-by-mail.
04:53:34 <spirity> by the gamemaster? why not just use... english, to communicate movements.
04:53:35 <zzo38> But unlike play-by-mail it is possible to ask if you want to deliberately fail any saving throw.
04:53:55 <zzo38> spirity: You can use English too, whatever text you want, but you can also use abbreviations if you commonly use it
04:53:55 <spirity> or your favorite natural language of choice.
04:54:58 <spirity> zzo38: the bot would exist to facillitate dice rolling. it would be very similar to a traditional tabletop game but with all the math done for you.
04:55:07 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:55:15 <spirity> you just specify the roll via character attributes
04:55:20 <spirity> or you can use numbers if you want
04:55:21 <zzo38> spirity: I understand; some IRC servers also have a GS command to do dice rolling and math.
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04:55:27 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host).
04:55:27 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
04:55:27 <zzo38> However I was using the play-by-mail system.
04:55:43 <zzo38> (Well, like play-by-mail, but much faster if it is IRC.)
04:55:54 <zzo38> (You can combine IRC with normal play-by-mail too.)
04:55:56 <spirity> zzo38: not only that but it would allow you to specify attributes of players without knowing what they are. This way you could effectively play gamemaster-less games.
04:56:08 <spirity> nick.dexterity + nick.firearms diff 7
04:56:13 <spirity> for example, using WOD nomenclature.
04:56:52 <zzo38> Have you seen my Dungeons&Dragons recordings?
04:56:59 <spirity> so you can initiate rolls without any knowledge of the players attributes (though you could probably guess if they're bad or good based on the results)
04:57:14 <spirity> zzo38: I believe you already asked that, and I already answered that I haven't.
04:57:51 <zzo38> Then look.
04:58:05 <spirity> I was also thinking you could set up a permission system, which allows individual players to set up ho they want their attributes to be usable by other players
04:58:12 <spirity> this allows you to give permission to designated gamemaster, or to anyone in your game
04:58:24 <spirity> and prevents other players from guessing your attributes via repeated dice rolls.
04:58:35 <zzo38> Yes that is one way.
04:58:42 <spirity> the idea is that you can eliminate the need for gamemaster while still having security features.
04:58:57 <spirity> also my bot checks registration with network services, so that you can't use nick changees to exploit this system.
04:59:29 <zzo38> Most of role-playing-game won't work so well without gamemaster, I think. If you do have gamemaster, you need no bot, no registration, because you can use play-by-mail system.
04:59:43 <spirity> I've played roleplaying games without a gamemaster using a similar dicerolling system, and it works very well.
04:59:50 <spirity> though it requires good players.
04:59:56 <spirity> that can create a story without someone guiding it.
05:00:00 <zzo38> Yes, it would require good players I think.
05:00:07 <spirity> it also requires that you have some sort of player antagonist.
05:00:13 <spirity> to make it interesting
05:00:20 <spirity> there needs to be some challenge that isn't contrived.
05:00:25 <zzo38> And I think I prefer the play-by-mail system (where the referee (= gamemaster) rolls all the dice)
05:00:38 <spirity> that's nice. the drawback of this kind of system is that most of the rolls are public.
05:00:44 <spirity> secret rolls have their place.
05:01:20 <zzo38> Yes play-by-mail (fast or slow) would have all rolls secret. Player can still roll a dice if they want to decide their action at random, but that is all.
05:01:54 <spirity> I think there would be a way to do secret rolls, provided you're playing with a gamemaster
05:02:02 <spirity> really the idea is to make the system completely flexible so that your group can play however you want.
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05:02:32 <spirity> so there could be a "secret roll" command, which privmsgs the roller. This allows the roll to be publically announced, but the result unknown.
05:02:41 <spirity> so that players know a roll was actually made.
05:03:23 <zzo38> Yes, whatever you prefer.
05:03:58 <spirity> also with a simple lambdabot-like messaging system it would be pretty easy to emulate play-by-email.
05:04:00 <zzo38> I have made up some of "Icosahedral RPG" system which is my own ruleset. It has many things differently from other systems. For example, multimanas form a ring and there is a partial ordering on them, etc
05:04:23 <zzo38> spirity: It does not have to be email, it can be normal mail too.
05:04:40 <spirity> zzo38: would you be interested in implementing the ruleset within my bot, once I have a sensible system for it?
05:05:03 <zzo38> spirity: I don't know.
05:05:07 <spirity> I haven't decided on a design that's general enough to accomodate many systems
05:05:11 <spirity> the bot itself would be perl though.
05:05:17 <spirity> since I already have a lot of nice code I can reuse
05:05:25 <spirity> including a sandbox similar to HackEgo's
05:05:41 <zzo38> O, well, since it isn't Haskell it might not do some of the things in Icosahedral RPG
05:06:03 <spirity> yeah, I wanted to make a Haskell bot but at this point the perl bot has a lot of features that I don't really feel like re-implementing
05:06:13 <spirity> but the ability to do sane concurrency would be a plus, if I were to port everything to a Haskell bot.
05:06:27 <zzo38> (You don't need Haskell to play this game, you can play just as well without a computer, but the game uses a lot of mathematical structures, and Haskell can do mathematical structures.)
05:06:43 <spirity> I'm sure perl can do mathematical structures too
05:06:46 <spirity> just not as cleanly
05:06:53 <zzo38> spirity: Yes, I believe you.
05:07:16 <spirity> zzo38: what do you think about dogless?
05:07:23 <spirity> I've got some incoming changes to how it works.
05:07:31 <zzo38> spirity: Describe.
05:07:47 <spirity> zzo38: it's the dupdog-based language I described earlier.
05:07:55 <spirity> I can paste the interpreter code again if you'd like.
05:08:02 <zzo38> spirity: O, yes, I have looked at it. But I forget.
05:08:04 <spirity> I'll need to write up a spec eventually.
05:08:15 <spirity> but I was thinking of changing the way the > and < commands work
05:08:18 <zzo38> You should write up the spec
05:08:26 <spirity> so that they work on arbitrary commands rather than just the substition commands
05:08:40 <spirity> using a command without < or > signifies a change to the entire source string
05:08:51 <spirity> and < and > limit the change to the "left side" or the "right side" of the ] marker.
05:09:03 <spirity> so <? would reverse everyting on the left side of the ] marker
05:09:08 <zzo38> spirity: O, yes, I remember by now. Yes I think it is OK.
05:09:08 <spirity> ? would reverse the entire program resource.
05:09:41 <spirity> having a distinction between the left side and right side of the program makes it much easier to write programs.
05:09:50 <spirity> because you have 2 distinguishable memory locations.
05:10:31 <spirity> as opposed to awkwardly working around yourself.
05:10:49 <spirity> (though you'll probably still have to do a lot of that, it'll just be more pleasant.)
05:11:14 <spirity> from what I can tell so far dogless makes any trivial program similar in difficulty to a quine.
05:11:21 <zzo38> Spells form a category, rounds are split into six segments, to cast a spell you require both the preparation and the mana, classes are more "generic" than D&D, arcane magic is more arcane, challenge rating is not used in this game, level adjustment (now called pseudolevels) apply to all kind of creatures, mana forms a commutative monoid with five primes...
05:11:38 <zzo38> spirity: I would think you are probably correct.
05:11:47 <spirity> zzo38: you may enjoy the MAge system from WoD. it's by far the most flexible magic system I've ever seen.
05:12:36 <spirity> there are 8 spheres, which your mage allocates points into. you typically only start out with 2 or 3 spheres available. having more points in a given sphere gives you more influence over that domain.
05:12:44 <spirity> and you can combine spheres together to form magic affects.
05:13:49 <spirity> so level 1 in Matter gives you sensory awareness of matter (you can analyse the composition of a substance, or detect hidden objects outside of plain sight). level 2 gives you minor transmutation powers. etc
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05:13:54 <spirity> up to level 5 which is complete control over that sphere.
05:14:49 <spirity> it's basically up to the gamemaster whether or not a given spell is possible given a combination of spheres, but there are recommendations and guidelines in the book.
05:14:50 <zzo38> ...standard campaign rules include: * Anyone dead ages twice as fast for purpose of resurrection spell. * Alignment entry in almost all cases for a kind of creature describes not what is actually most likely (actually all are considered equally likely), but what people tend to believe even though it is not true. * You have to know the ephemeris time.
05:15:33 <zzo38> spirity: OK, that seem interesting. My system is different from that.
05:15:36 <spirity> zzo38: I know nothing about D&D
05:15:46 <spirity> so some of the terminology you're using makes no sense to me.
05:15:53 <zzo38> Well, my system is not D&D either.
05:16:22 <spirity> zzo38: right it's just similar in flexible, without being a complex jumble of abstract math.
05:16:26 <spirity> *flexibility
05:16:38 <zzo38> OK, I can see your point now.
05:16:40 <spirity> it's more accessible for the average player, but still allows emergent complexity.
05:17:56 <spirity> Matter 2 + Forces 2 would allow you to transform an object into a burst of flame or electricity, for example. The magic is supposed to be really subtle. The more you break the expectations of those around you, the more the fabric of reality backlashes against you.
05:18:18 <zzo38> When I write the Icosahedral RPG rules, it is CC-BY-SA with no attribution required and a few additional permissions (one of which allows you to remove all the additional permissions), and I would be OK if WotC published it under the name "Dungeons & Dragons hyper-advanced edition version [whatever]".
05:18:36 <spirity> ....lol
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05:19:23 <zzo38> Since of course that is permitted by the license, and I would like them to do that if they agree too.
05:20:01 <spirity> so if you can craft a spell that follows the expectations of mundane humans around you, or the general expectations of that society, then you won't be punished. the more over-the-top your magic is, the more consequences you suffer. it's a nice balancing force that prevents complete powergaming.
05:20:23 <spirity> the game is set in modern times, btw.
05:20:31 <zzo38> spirity: Yes that idea is OK.
05:20:56 <zzo38> The license additional permissions are these: * You may combine it with works licensed under GNU GPL. * Things that are unrelated to game rules (such as background story) can be licensed however you want. * You may remove all three of these additional permissions; if you do so, you must remove all three or none at all.
05:21:02 <spirity> it requires a good gamemaster to be effective.
05:21:08 <spirity> since the rules are very loose.
05:22:01 <spirity> zzo38: aditionally, you could stipulate that if only one of the permissions is kept intact, then the work must be dual-licensed under the Do Whatever The Fuck You Want license.
05:22:07 <spirity> just to make the license terms even more confusing and pointless.
05:22:25 <zzo38> The license terms are not intended to be confusing and pointless.
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05:23:32 <spirity> zzo38: how do you simultaneously revoke the provision that allows you to revoke provisions, while also invoking it?
05:24:00 <spirity> you said "all three". isn't the third one the "revoke all stipulations" stipulation?
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05:24:25 <spirity> I sense a legal loophole in your license.
05:24:36 <spirity> or rather a logical paradox.
05:25:09 <spirity> oh, nevermind. I see.
05:25:13 <zzo38> spirity: I am not a lawyer, but it seem clear to me.
05:25:27 <spirity> it's the licensing of the derivative work, that's being altered.
05:25:27 <zzo38> Yes, the third one is the "revoke all stipulations" stipulation.
05:25:28 <spirity> right okay.
05:25:35 <zzo38> Yes, the derivative work.
05:25:54 <zzo38> You cannot affect the original work of course; only copies.
05:26:07 <spirity> a non-terminating recursive licensing conditions would be pretty great.
05:26:22 <zzo38> The license is not retroactive (it would not be suitable for free cultural works if it is retroactive).
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05:38:19 <zzo38> Have you ever written any music (on paper or computer)?
05:39:10 <spirity> I haven't.
05:39:17 <spirity> it's something I'd like to do.
05:39:39 <spirity> I'm more interested in composition directly via programming languages, rather than using notation indirectly.
05:39:56 <spirity> but I guess the lines get blurry at some point. you can easily have a notation-like DSL within a more general language.
05:40:42 <spirity> but I think most notations would take aware some flexibility.
05:40:52 <spirity> *take away
05:41:31 <zzo38> Do you know MML?
05:41:43 <spirity> no
05:41:57 <zzo38> I prefer MML to write music on computer.
05:41:58 <spirity> I've toyed around with an abstraction for "tracks"
05:42:10 <spirity> that would work similarly to the way many graphical clients work, but giving you more power.
05:42:16 <spirity> they could be composed into larger tracks, etc.
05:42:27 <zzo38> Do you have any NES emulator on your computer?
05:42:31 <spirity> not currently
05:42:48 <spirity> I had one on my Ubuntu partition before I reformatted but I don't remember its name now.
05:42:54 <zzo38> I have written some music using a version of PPMCK which I have made improvements to.
05:43:45 <zzo38> PPMCK compilse music to .NSF format which can be played in most NES emulators.
05:43:56 <spirity> cool
05:44:21 <spirity> would it then be possible to extract the sound produced by the emulator for postprocessing?
05:44:45 <zzo38> If you just want the audio output, then yes it would be possible.
05:45:03 <spirity> yes, I think it would be nice to have a NES audio emulator.
05:45:16 <spirity> that's what all the chiptune hipsters are into these days.
05:45:26 <zzo38> But it may also be possible to just record the values placed into the registers and then emulate the NES audio using Csound.
05:45:50 <spirity> I'm sure there's a more direct method but that would require me to actually research things.
05:46:01 <spirity> like how the NES audio synth works.
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05:46:40 <spirity> actually I'm almost positive there's an existing VST plugin that emulates a NES.
05:46:41 <zzo38> There are also audio expansion chips (used only in Japanese cartridges), such as VRC6, VRC7, MMC5, etc
05:46:55 <zzo38> Yes there are VST plugins, but I want a Csound orchestra to do so.
05:47:30 <zzo38> I don't like VST.
05:47:39 <spirity> I don't know much about it internally.
05:48:05 <spirity> it seems to integrate poorly with existing GUIs
05:48:15 <spirity> it just makes a new window for the plugin. seems like it disrupts workflow a bit.
05:48:41 <spirity> can you also communicate with them in a completely programmatic way?
05:49:02 <zzo38> Csound doesn't have that problem. Although you can create GUIs with Csound, you don't need them.
05:49:14 <spirity> also VST requires MIDI input
05:49:17 <spirity> which is a downside, IMO.
05:49:43 <spirity> oh nevermind that's been patched.
05:49:56 <spirity> you can input raw audio now
05:49:59 <zzo38> Csound can also interact with MIDI, as well as VST, but you don't need that.
05:50:10 <spirity> yes I'm aware of what Csound is capable of.
05:50:25 <spirity> I just don't really like the language itself.
05:50:33 <zzo38> What do you dislike about it?
05:51:01 <spirity> it doesn't compose very well.
05:51:06 <spirity> like Haskell could.
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05:52:13 <spirity> csound is a lot of copy/paste programming
05:52:19 <zzo38> You could use it with Haskell functions that write the Csound codes I suppose.
05:53:43 <spirity> csound is very mature, more mature than any Haskell library I could produce.
05:54:00 <spirity> the physical modelling opcodes are very nice.
05:54:07 <Vorpal> hi
05:54:15 <Vorpal> what is the current discussion about?
05:54:15 <spirity> hey
05:54:19 <spirity> csound
05:54:20 <spirity> and stuff
05:54:22 <Vorpal> which is?
05:54:27 <zzo38> I could try to make up something with Haskell that writes Csound codes. Some packages already exist for that but I could try something else too.
05:54:37 <zzo38> I could also try to allow it to work with MML.
05:54:42 <Vorpal> ah google to the rescue
05:54:52 <zzo38> Vorpal: Or look on Wikipedia
05:54:54 <spirity> zzo38: csound could be a viable backend, but I'm interested in Haskell-based abstractions.
05:55:06 <spirity> using functions as continuous signals.
05:55:35 <Vorpal> what is the point of it? Synthesising?
05:55:36 <zzo38> spirity: I did think of some ideas about it earlier today.
05:55:40 <elliott> kmc: you should rewrite mosh so it's less than 1k lines of C so I can reasonable use it in this silly thing I am planning
05:55:44 <elliott> let me know when it's done!!
05:55:44 <spirity> Vorpal: signal processing. which includes that.
05:56:08 <Vorpal> elliott, what sort of thing has a limit of 1k lines of C code?
05:56:34 <Vorpal> 1k binary sure, but 1k C code?
05:56:46 <spirity> embedded compiler.
05:56:50 <elliott> one in which I do not want to send a maintainer a patch saying "I have this cool feature, but it adds a dependency on a mammoth C++ codebase many times the size of your own that doesn't work on one of your supported platforms"
05:56:55 <Vorpal> spirity, hm maybe
05:56:57 <zzo38> One thing I somewhat dislike about Csound is the numeric score; MML would be better for writing music. The numeric score is OK, but it is OK for writing more low-level and MML would be better for writing some actual music.
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05:57:20 <Vorpal> elliott, what is it? I'm genuinely intrigued now
05:57:34 <Vorpal> also what is "mosh"?
05:57:41 <elliott> http://mosh.mit.edu/
05:57:43 <spirity> Vorpal is unable to google things today.
05:57:53 <spirity> luckily we are here to recuse him.
05:57:57 <spirity> *rescue
05:58:04 <spirity> I guess "mosh" is a difficult keyword to search for though.
05:58:16 <Vorpal> spirity, I'm on a phone. It is annoying to multitask
05:58:39 <spirity> I guess I have the convenience of xmonad and 2 monitors at my disposal.
05:58:41 <zzo38> Do you watch Akagi or Kaiji manga/anime?
05:58:48 <elliott> Vorpal: and the thing I am considering writing is a streaming/spectating patch for brogue
05:58:49 <Vorpal> also the ssh tunnel to my bouncer on the phone is not working very well :/
05:58:59 <Vorpal> from*
05:59:06 <spirity> elliott: neat
05:59:13 <elliott> spirity: do you know what brogue is
05:59:18 <spirity> I just googled it.
05:59:20 <Vorpal> elliott, need to check what brogue is now
05:59:21 * spirity is amazing.
05:59:24 <elliott> ok
05:59:30 <elliott> it is a good game, you should play it
05:59:32 <elliott> that applies to both of you
06:00:02 <Vorpal> oh that rouge like, I remember you mentioning it before
06:00:08 <spirity> elliott: you could just implement SSP in brogue
06:00:18 <spirity> which is what gives it roaming capabilities.
06:00:38 <elliott> rouge like
06:00:47 <elliott> so uh
06:00:49 <elliott> red
06:01:03 <Vorpal> also usb keyboard to the phone is amazing (which is the reason I can type so fast atm), but sadly not very convenient
06:01:22 <spirity> elliott: so brogue is a networked rogue-like?
06:01:25 <Vorpal> yay for USB OTG though
06:01:28 <elliott> spirity: it is the synchronisation I want, not the roaming
06:01:35 <elliott> spirity: no, it's not networked at all
06:01:50 <Vorpal> <elliott> rouge like <-- rogue*
06:01:51 <elliott> it's just an (exceedingly well-designed and exceptionally pretty) normal single-player roguelike
06:02:02 <spirity> synchornize what, then.
06:02:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I always confuse those two words
06:03:04 <elliott> spirity: <elliott> Vorpal: and the thing I am considering writing is a streaming/spectating patch for brogue
06:03:08 <elliott> pay attention
06:03:22 <spirity> elliott: I did. I meant, more specifically, what are you synchronizing about it.
06:04:17 <elliott> the display of the screen
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06:04:34 <spirity> is it not already instantaneous?
06:04:36 -!- Trey has changed nick to copumpkin.
06:04:49 <elliott> wtf is ambiguous about "spectating"
06:04:55 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to Trey.
06:04:58 -!- Trey has changed nick to copumpkin.
06:05:38 <spirity> the unmentioned details related to games I know very little about.
06:05:46 <elliott> what
06:05:54 <spirity> I can't answer that question.
06:06:05 <Vorpal> elliott, can't you just broadcast the stream of tty data?
06:06:16 <Vorpal> or does it redraw partially only
06:06:36 <elliott> it isn't terminal-based (well, it has a terminal backend, but it's ugly as heck because 16 colours)
06:06:43 <Vorpal> oh
06:06:58 <spirity> elliott: I just don't see what needs to be spectated or synchronized in a game that isn't networked and probably updates nearly instantaneously with events in the game world.
06:06:59 <elliott> it displays its own (full-colour) pseudo-terminal
06:07:10 <elliott> spirity: the point is to add a feature whereby other people can spectate a game
06:07:21 <spirity> oh right. okay.
06:07:26 <Vorpal> aaah
06:07:57 <Vorpal> elliott, see, if you just explain things like that we don't need to have this sort of confusion :)
06:08:07 <zzo38> Do you like the computer game I make?
06:08:09 <spirity> elliott: you could most likely rig that up with existing software, but it wouldn't be as free of latency.
06:08:28 <elliott> <Vorpal> elliott, see, if you just explain things like that we don't need to have this sort of confusion :)
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06:08:37 <spirity> just livestream via an existing website (I know twitch.tv is one site that supports video game streaming) and a screencapture program.
06:08:41 <elliott> i was going to respond to this but
06:08:43 <elliott> im w/ monqy
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06:08:49 <Vorpal> what
06:08:57 <Vorpal> spirity, it will look ugly
06:09:29 <spirity> most likely. unless you have an epic computer to do awesome live video encoding.
06:09:36 <Vorpal> spirity, I watch streams on twitch.tv occasionally. I can never get it to work properly above 480p. Yet I can watch youtube at 1080p. And in both cases it will look compressed
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06:10:11 <Vorpal> spirity, anyway, doing live video encoding isn't that hard on a modern computer
06:10:30 <Vorpal> I bet mine could do it, though maybe not with ultra graphics settings for some games
06:10:58 <spirity> I watch streams from professional starcraft casters. They have monster computers.
06:11:03 <spirity> so the video quality is usually pretty good.
06:11:10 <zzo38> In one game, you have to save the gibbering mouthers from the king's army by holding the second key (as in the key to open the door) as you hold a pencil.
06:11:41 <Vorpal> spirity, I'm not really interested in Starcraft, I mostly watched other stuff. Like Magicka or what not
06:11:54 <spirity> magicka? is it like.. competitive PvP?
06:12:10 <Vorpal> spirity, iirc it was coop between TotalBiscuit and Yogscast or something like that
06:12:11 <spirity> that's probably something I could get into. though last time I played Magicka they patched it so that my usual tricks didn't work as well anymore.
06:12:18 <spirity> spirity: oh I've seen that.
06:12:22 <spirity> um Vorpal: ^
06:12:25 <Vorpal> and it was hilarious
06:12:36 <Vorpal> talking to yourself eh
06:12:43 <spirity> we've had this conversation before, but I get pretty competitive with those kinds of games.
06:12:50 <Vorpal> well, okay
06:13:04 <Vorpal> I'm not a competitive player. I play games for other reasons
06:13:04 <spirity> it's supposed to be a light hearted game but the combat system is actually really complex.
06:13:08 <Vorpal> like story telling.
06:13:23 <spirity> Magicka is stellar both in terms of storytelling and gameplay.
06:13:31 <spirity> so it's likeable for both of those reasons.
06:13:34 <Vorpal> oh yes, it is certainly a funny game
06:13:45 <Vorpal> I like the Swedish-English-made-up-whatever voice acting in it
06:13:52 <spirity> but at the same time the magic system is /good/
06:14:00 <Vorpal> as a Swede myself it is extra funny
06:14:08 <Vorpal> anyway I suck at Magicka
06:14:16 * spirity is apparently pretty good at it.
06:14:18 <Vorpal> I need a slower paced game.
06:14:26 <Vorpal> can't cast spells quick enough
06:14:34 <zzo38> In one game you have to move the white ball to stop colliding with color ball, you have to make a rectangle of four corner tiles the same color as the ball to remove them from the screen.
06:14:40 <spirity> once you have some decent spells commited to muscle memory it's just a matter of thinking in terms of those spells, rather than the individual buttons
06:14:43 <spirity> but you can improvise as well.
06:15:27 <Vorpal> spirity, my favourite game of all time is Witcher 2. What a great story that game has. I never watched Game of Thrones, but from what I heard from other people, the political intrigue part of the Witcher 2 story reminds them of that
06:15:30 <spirity> one problem the game has is that the input system annoyingly messes up if you start typing too fast. maybe it's intentional to make mindless spamming unviable.
06:15:53 <spirity> but it also makse having quick reaction times unviable as well. :(
06:16:09 <Vorpal> oh Deus Ex: Human Revolution is great too btw. I have been meaning to buy the original Deus Ex and have a go at it, from what I heard that has even better story
06:16:51 <Vorpal> spirity, I think Magicka + AutoHotKey could be an amazing way to play it for the type of gamer that I am
06:16:53 <Vorpal> XD
06:16:58 <spirity> :|
06:17:10 <Vorpal> look, I'm not good at quick reaction stuff.
06:17:10 <spirity> I didn't even consider that a possibility.
06:17:19 <spirity> now I'm sad.
06:17:26 <spirity> people on PvP probably just cheat and do stuff like that.
06:17:30 <Vorpal> heh
06:17:32 <Vorpal> probably
06:17:40 <spirity> but I'd like to think that the list of possible useful spells far exceeds the number of buttons on the keyboard.
06:17:43 <Vorpal> I would only use that for the campaign if I did that
06:17:54 <spirity> ah I bet that's what why fast inputs are rejected
06:18:00 <spirity> to avoid autohotkey cheating.
06:18:05 <Vorpal> well you can insert delays into autohotkey iirc
06:18:16 <spirity> well, it balanced the playing field a bit, then.
06:18:32 <spirity> no instant cast 5-element spells.
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06:18:37 <Vorpal> anyway, I do not want to learn autohotkey, the language doesn't exactly look nice
06:19:00 <spirity> it's not nice by any tangible metric.
06:19:32 <Vorpal> also in magicka I always mix up the cast type. self,area,normal,whatever
06:19:37 <spirity> some of the new stuff they added to magicka feels cheap
06:19:41 <spirity> like the new rock shield.
06:19:43 <Vorpal> also remembering the spells is hard
06:19:53 <Vorpal> spirity, hm, does "crash to desktop" work in PvP?
06:20:04 <spirity> I don't know. I haven't played the game since PvP was added.
06:20:08 <Vorpal> ah
06:20:33 <spirity> I played it when the strongest spell in the game didn't one-shot you if you didn't use immunity shields.
06:20:51 <Vorpal> spirity, anyway I mostly play RPGs. I'm decent at stealth action games too, like Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
06:21:03 <Vorpal> (which is a stealth/action/RPG hybrid)
06:21:05 <spirity> I play whatever games other people around me with consoles/gaming PCs play.
06:21:08 <Vorpal> (with FPS elements)
06:21:27 <Vorpal> Apart from minecraft and flightsims I mostly go for single player
06:21:37 * spirity prefers multiplayer typically.
06:21:42 <Vorpal> oh and space sims. They are awesome
06:21:46 <spirity> but not as a rule.
06:21:51 <Vorpal> like Evochron Mercenary
06:23:19 <Vorpal> spirity, do you like games like that?
06:23:25 <spirity> I haven't played many.
06:23:35 <spirity> I don't own any consoles or a gaming PC atm
06:23:47 <Vorpal> well oolite should run on pretty much anything
06:23:52 <Vorpal> and it is open source
06:23:53 <spirity> one game I'm looking forward to is planetside 2.
06:24:04 <Vorpal> you probably want a proper joystick though
06:24:16 <spirity> also a new smash bros game is being developed. I love that series.
06:24:24 <Vorpal> spirity, ah yes, I signed up for the beta, thinking "why not, it is F2P, might give it a try"
06:24:33 * spirity is one of the "no items final destination" people. :P
06:24:35 <Vorpal> haven't gotten a beta key yet
06:24:45 -!- ais523 has quit.
06:24:46 <Vorpal> * spirity is one of the "no items final destination" people. :P <-- huh?
06:24:51 <Vorpal> what is that
06:24:56 <spirity> have you played smash bros?
06:24:59 <Vorpal> nope
06:25:03 <spirity> oh. okay. well then nevermind
06:25:03 <Vorpal> I never owned a console
06:25:06 <spirity> final destination is the map that's just like...
06:25:08 <spirity> a platform
06:25:11 <spirity> a big floating platform
06:25:14 <Vorpal> I played some snes and n64 games in emulators
06:25:22 <spirity> and "no items" means that you turn all the items off.
06:25:26 <spirity> so there's no random chance involved.
06:25:47 <Vorpal> chrono trigger, FF IV, Secret of Mana, Zelda ALTP, OOT, WW and so on. (the last one being gamecube)
06:25:58 <Vorpal> spirity, right
06:26:22 <spirity> that's also typically how tournaments are played.
06:26:27 <Vorpal> spirity, hey if you ever get a PS3, play dark souls XD
06:26:44 <spirity> I've played probably the first 25% of Demons' souls.
06:26:59 <Vorpal> also nethack is an amazing game, haven't played it for ages though. I /used/ to be pretty good at it.
06:27:09 <spirity> I overleveled in the first part until I could reasonably complete that part of the game.
06:27:09 <Vorpal> probably not so good any more
06:27:24 <Vorpal> spirity, heh
06:27:35 <spirity> I used the meatcleaver build thing.
06:27:49 <spirity> meatcleaver and faith
06:28:00 <Vorpal> no clue what that is
06:28:26 <Vorpal> anyway, I doubt I will get a console in the foreseeable future. I prefer gaming on a PC.
06:28:27 <spirity> meatcleaver is just a unique sword you can get. it actually counts as a "big club" type weapon.
06:29:10 <spirity> for the first section (act? chapter? I don't remember) I would just time my swing so that I one-shot most things as they approached.
06:29:30 <spirity> because I was so overleveled
06:29:33 <Vorpal> oh no, having to time combat :/
06:29:42 <Vorpal> that is why I suck at Batman: Arkham City
06:29:45 <spirity> that's like... what demons' souls /is/
06:29:51 <Vorpal> right
06:29:56 <spirity> Batman: Arkham City almost times combat for you.
06:30:01 <Vorpal> not really
06:30:08 <Vorpal> you have to time to get any combos
06:30:17 <spirity> it's incredibly easy to never get hit and rack up absurd combos.
06:30:21 <Vorpal> no it isn't
06:30:26 <Vorpal> for me it is really hard
06:30:34 <Vorpal> I just suck at timing
06:30:36 <spirity> I never played the story mode though. just the challenge mode.
06:30:39 <spirity> where it was just pure brawling.
06:30:46 <Vorpal> ... why would you not play story mode?
06:30:54 <Vorpal> how is that less interesting than challenges?
06:31:00 <spirity> also the stealth missions from that mode were fun.
06:31:02 <spirity> well
06:31:17 <spirity> I didn't own the game. I didn't have time to commit to story mode. also from what I could see the voice acting was kind of mediocre.
06:31:20 <Vorpal> the story is really good, that is the only reason I completed that game
06:31:21 <Vorpal> ah
06:31:23 <spirity> didn't really engage me.
06:31:32 <Vorpal> eh, it was okay
06:31:32 <spirity> but I only saw pieces of it.
06:31:34 <spirity> from other people playing.
06:31:41 <spirity> also the ending is stupid.
06:31:51 <spirity> generic big monster boss fight, for no reason.
06:31:53 <Vorpal> I'm not very sensitive to voice acting personally
06:31:58 <Vorpal> unless it is really bad
06:32:17 <spirity> or maybe I'm thinking of arkham asylum
06:32:26 <Vorpal> yeah I think you are confusing them
06:32:39 <spirity> I definitely played the challenge mode from arkham city
06:32:40 <Vorpal> haven't played arkham asylum though
06:32:49 <spirity> and prbably saw more of the story from arkham asylum.
06:32:57 <Vorpal> never even looked at the challenges in arkham city
06:33:24 <spirity> it's great. the first time I picked it up I got a 50x combo. :D
06:33:51 <Vorpal> what is it with windows 7 and lowering the volume of vlc when you plug or unplug USB devices...
06:33:52 <spirity> the timing is not very sensitive at all. you can more or less spam buttons to get it to time itself for you.
06:33:53 <Vorpal> wtf
06:34:21 <Vorpal> spirity, I played on medium, maybe you played on easy or something?
06:34:28 <spirity> no
06:34:31 <Vorpal> or you are really good at that sort of combat
06:35:00 <spirity> I'm really good at smash bros, so it probably carries over into brawler type games.
06:35:04 <Vorpal> hm okay
06:35:29 <Vorpal> have you tried playing a story driven RPG btw?
06:35:52 <Vorpal> Mass Effect perhaps?
06:36:04 <spirity> I played a few when I was younger, and still had video game systems. I don't remember much about them now though.
06:36:11 <Vorpal> hm
06:36:15 <spirity> metroid prime was a good game.
06:36:17 <spirity> very immersive.
06:36:25 <Vorpal> hm, which platform was that for?
06:36:28 <spirity> gamecube
06:36:30 <Vorpal> ah
06:36:32 <spirity> there's also sequels for the wii.
06:36:39 * spirity was a nintendo kid, mostly.
06:37:00 <Vorpal> I played some snes meteroid game in an emulator, didn't really like it. Too much backtracking.
06:37:21 <Vorpal> And I grew up on classic mac OS...
06:37:29 <spirity> I played the n64 and gamecube zelda games if hat counts
06:37:47 <Vorpal> so I remember games like EV Override (2D top-down space shooter, open world, and story driven)
06:37:50 <spirity> though zelda is more like a platformer puzzle game than an RPG.
06:38:07 <Vorpal> and Avernum 1/2/3 (one of the best adventure/RPG games ever)
06:38:18 <Vorpal> game series*
06:38:31 <spirity> oh, also
06:38:34 <spirity> tabletop RPGs
06:38:35 <Vorpal> spirity, zelda oot is really good yes
06:38:37 <spirity> I play those.
06:38:43 <spirity> probably as close to "story-driven RPG" as you can get.
06:38:44 <Vorpal> hm never had a chance to play any such
06:38:49 <Vorpal> GURPS? D&D?
06:38:55 <spirity> I played a lot of WoD.
06:38:58 <spirity> (World of Darkness)
06:39:01 <Vorpal> hm okay
06:39:05 <spirity> on MUDs, actually. I've never played in person.
06:39:16 <Vorpal> ah, you must be a few years older than me
06:39:19 <spirity> but it was free-form style. you just communicated via text.
06:39:26 <spirity> Vorpal: I doubt it.
06:39:27 <itidus21> for me, good games are: super mario world, super street fighter 2, secret of mana, final fantasy 6, romance of three kingdoms (on snes not sure which version), uh i dunno mang
06:39:34 * spirity turns 21 in 3 days.
06:39:36 <Vorpal> secret of mana is good yes
06:39:46 <Vorpal> spirity, so you are younger than me? Huh
06:39:48 <itidus21> i played secret of mana 2 player
06:39:59 <spirity> yeah. MUDs still existed in the late 90s and early 2000s.
06:40:03 <spirity> just not as popular.
06:40:13 <spirity> I don't remember how I found them.
06:40:19 <Vorpal> secret of mana has a better combat system than chrono trigger but chrono trigger has a better story than secret of mana
06:40:21 <Vorpal> kind of sad
06:40:34 <spirity> I started out with hack-n-slash style games, then I found free-form RP style games (similar to MOO and MUSH, but with a stripped down MUD-based interface)
06:40:53 <Vorpal> hm
06:40:59 -!- TheJimmyJames has joined.
06:41:21 <spirity> eventually I started coding for one. So I have some experience with designing freeform text-based pen and paper interfaces.
06:41:32 <spirity> which is a funny thing to say.
06:41:37 <itidus21> to be honest i kind of tried to compile a list of games i like or find interesting, but it eventually generalized too far so that {x:x is a video game} = {x:x is interesting}
06:41:49 <Vorpal> oh well
06:41:58 <spirity> itidus21: so you're saying you have no standards.
06:41:59 <itidus21> :-D
06:42:17 <itidus21> btw i don't know math well.. im just trying out set construction
06:42:17 <spirity> Vorpal: I'm very much interested in setting up a IRC-based tabletop gaming system. I was talking to zzo38 about it previously.
06:42:23 <Vorpal> I don't think any game that didn't have an interesting story ever managed to get me interested for more than a brief time period of time
06:42:25 <spirity> so if you're interested we could possibly try that out.
06:42:32 <Vorpal> spirity, hey what about Mirror's Edge?
06:42:43 <spirity> haven't layed.
06:42:46 <spirity> *played
06:42:53 <spirity> I like video games
06:42:55 <spirity> but haven't played many.
06:42:57 <Vorpal> any assasin's creed game though?
06:43:05 <spirity> yes I've played the first 2.
06:43:14 <spirity> very good games.
06:43:21 <Vorpal> you might like Mirror's Edge. It is quite hard.
06:43:36 <spirity> there was some new game that ubisoft unveiled at E3 that's based off of that engine. it looks ridiculously cool.
06:43:43 <Vorpal> oh? which one?
06:43:48 <spirity> I can't remember the name
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06:44:03 <Vorpal> spirity, or do you mean Dishonoured? It had some parkour iirc. Bethesda though
06:44:05 <spirity> but basically you have access to electronic devices around you, and like.. public records of people.
06:44:10 <Vorpal> oh that. Right
06:44:11 <spirity> no
06:44:15 <Vorpal> don't think it had parkour?
06:44:21 <Vorpal> or did it?
06:44:33 <spirity> no but I could see from the alpha footage that it had a similar control interface.
06:44:38 <Vorpal> hm?
06:44:38 <spirity> but it might.
06:44:46 <Vorpal> similar control interface? what do you mean?
06:44:49 <spirity> Vorpal: I'm not really sure how to describe what I mean.
06:45:01 <spirity> like you had an inventory that seemed to work similarly to the AC interface.
06:45:10 <Vorpal> hm
06:45:10 <zzo38> I like text adventure game
06:45:11 <spirity> with labelled buttons at the bottom.
06:45:11 <Vorpal> okay
06:45:13 <itidus21> an abstracted subset of reality can be embedded within virtual reality. should it be called a reality manifold? <-- i know it's silly
06:45:20 <spirity> describing what action each button does.
06:45:29 <Vorpal> spirity, I know which game you mean, but it reminded me more of Deus Ex: HR.
06:45:38 <spirity> and it's the same third-person style. I'd imagine it's a heavily derived version of that engine.
06:45:39 <Vorpal> when it came to the setting and so on
06:45:56 <spirity> since you'll be walking through urban areas. I see no reason for them to re-invent their crowd simulation stuff.
06:46:23 <Vorpal> spirity, well you didn't have to think about car traffic in the AC setting
06:46:28 <spirity> right
06:46:29 <Vorpal> so you need to handle that differently at least
06:46:34 <zzo38> Do you think nobody play chess by mail anymore?
06:46:41 <spirity> it seemed derived in a very vague sense.
06:46:43 <zzo38> I have played chess by (postal) mail just a few years ago.
06:46:51 <spirity> I don't see why they would
06:47:06 <spirity> maybe if they're old and nostalgic.
06:47:23 <zzo38> I played shogi by mail too.
06:47:23 <spirity> some people have a "thing" for postage.
06:47:32 <Vorpal> spirity, if you get a good gaming PC you should definitely play Witcher 2. On the higher difficulty settings it becomes extremely hard.
06:47:35 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: begone).
06:47:40 <spirity> Vorpal: yes I was planning on it.
06:47:42 <Vorpal> and requires quite a bit of timing
06:47:47 <itidus21> i guess postage is good because it forces things to go slow
06:47:50 <Vorpal> on easy or normal I can play it though
06:47:51 <spirity> I've read a lot about the company itself and I'm impressed with their business practices.
06:48:02 <spirity> I don't see any reason not to support them by trying out what appears to be a really great PC game.
06:48:14 <Vorpal> spirity, oh yes, they are definitely the most consumer friendly company when it comes to games out there currently
06:48:25 <Vorpal> spirity, same company that runs gog.com, which is an awesome sit
06:48:26 <Vorpal> site*
06:48:32 <spirity> Vorpal: also I've been buying humble bundles in preparation for my future gaming PC
06:48:38 <Vorpal> they make sure the games they sell on there work on modern systems
06:48:38 <spirity> the last one game with braid which I'm excited to try out.
06:48:42 <Vorpal> patching them as required
06:48:47 <spirity> it wasn't even announced that there would be braid, initially.
06:48:49 <spirity> and they added it.
06:48:54 <zzo38> Usually these days I receive a local posted letter the next day, or I send one and it arrives at the recipient in the next day. Especially if you use the tricks that speed up the mail (postal hacking).
06:48:55 <Vorpal> spirity, surely braid runs well on anything
06:49:05 <spirity> Vorpal: oh. maybe. I haven't actually tried.
06:49:06 <Vorpal> spirity, I played it on the laptop I'm on atm. Intel graphics.
06:49:10 <spirity> oh.
06:49:12 <Vorpal> core 2 duo
06:49:17 <spirity> I have an i3
06:49:24 <spirity> intel graphics. 4 GB RAM.
06:49:32 <Vorpal> 2 GB RAM. Core 2 Duo at 2.26 GHz
06:49:41 <spirity> I don't remember how a Core 2 Duo compares to i3
06:49:46 <zzo38> Read my Dungeons&Dragons stories http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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06:49:47 <Vorpal> older generation
06:49:48 <spirity> also I think there are many i3's so that's not very helpful
06:49:52 <spirity> Vorpal: which?
06:49:55 <Vorpal> hm?
06:49:59 <Vorpal> core 2 duo is older
06:50:00 <zzo38> Do you know of TeX?
06:50:01 <spirity> oh
06:50:10 <shachaf> !bf_gen Primer
06:50:15 <spirity> okay. I'll try out braid soon then.
06:50:18 <Vorpal> spirity, btw play Bastion. Awesome game. Didn't work with intel graphics on linux at least
06:50:21 <spirity> I just kind of assumed that nothing plays well on this laptop.
06:50:24 <Vorpal> haven't tried it on a low end system on windows
06:50:25 <shachaf> EgoBot?
06:50:27 <spirity> Vorpal: I intend to.
06:50:34 <shachaf> Who does !bf_gen?
06:50:35 <spirity> since I own it and all.
06:50:38 <shachaf> fungot?
06:50:39 <fungot> shachaf: for many years no one for him to persist in those reforms? it is true that he was a man utterly without faith or fnord that europe could be conciliated only by the dread of the gallant spectacle which they presented to countless thousands last friday, i am sure, of my idea of reform is meant to answer in the constitution, forbids such invasion and such surrender. the constituent parts of the fabric together, was no pro
06:50:52 <spirity> ^bf_gen hi
06:50:54 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
06:50:56 <spirity> !bf_gen hi
06:51:02 <spirity> ^help
06:51:02 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
06:51:12 <spirity> !help
06:51:13 <EgoBot> ​help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
06:51:17 <spirity> !bf_txtgen hi
06:51:22 <EgoBot> ​41 ++++++++[>+++++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>.+.>++. [347]
06:51:24 <Vorpal> spirity, but yeah a lot of the humble indie bundle games should run fine on low end hardware
06:51:29 <Vorpal> not all, but a lot
06:51:30 <shachaf> !bf_txtgen Primer
06:51:32 <EgoBot> ​82 +++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>++.>>---.<+.++++.--------.>.>---. [131]
06:51:39 <shachaf> !bf +++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>+<<<<-]>++.>>---.<+.++++.--------.>.>---.
06:51:40 <EgoBot> Primer
06:51:46 <spirity> Vorpal: yeah some do. Botanicula runs fine for example.
06:51:54 <Vorpal> spirity, and if you already own them, just download them and try. :) Unless you are on a sucky internet connection
06:52:00 <spirity> good game. I haven't completed it but I come back to every once in a while. it's very relaxing.
06:52:04 <zzo38> Add the fungot style from Dungeons&Dragons story recording and character background story.
06:52:20 <Vorpal> spirity, hey you should play Machinarium then too
06:52:25 <Vorpal> I think it was in an earlier bundle
06:52:28 <Vorpal> same company
06:52:36 <Vorpal> same style of game, completely different setting
06:52:38 <spirity> eventually. I don't like point and clicks very much, so I have to be in the mood and I quickly get bored.
06:52:41 <zzo38> Character background stories are in level20_backstory.tex and scenario ideas are in level20_idea.txt
06:52:44 <spirity> but they're fun to play when I am interested.
06:53:00 <spirity> I typically play very fast-paced energetic games.
06:53:21 <spirity> or slow-paced strategic games.
06:53:23 <zzo38> spirity: Do you like my computer game?
06:53:24 <spirity> or puzzle games.
06:53:42 <spirity> zzo38: which one
06:53:47 <Vorpal> spirity, well, when it comes to point and click, Amanita Design is in a class of their own.
06:53:55 <spirity> yes, I can see that.
06:54:10 <Vorpal> spirity, what do you think about stealth games then?
06:54:11 <zzo38> spirity: Any of them, there is fast-pace game, slow-pace, puzzle game, etc
06:54:25 <spirity> Vorpal: fun. I haven't played enough of them though. The hitman series is great.
06:54:32 <Vorpal> ah, haven't played that
06:54:37 <spirity> I played the first splinter cell but I wasn't old enough to be good at it.
06:54:46 <Vorpal> what about Deus Ex or Deus Ex: HR?
06:54:46 <spirity> same with hitman
06:54:49 <spirity> haven't played.
06:54:51 <Vorpal> ah
06:55:02 <spirity> zzo38: I don't recall any computer games. just the tabletop game.
06:55:17 <zzo38> Try the CGA collection: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll2.zip is part of it.
06:55:24 <spirity> I've played a metal gear solid game for the original game boy. don't recall the name.
06:55:27 <spirity> that was pretty fun.
06:55:36 <zzo38> As well as http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll1.zip
06:55:38 <spirity> haven't played any of the 3d ones.
06:56:05 <Vorpal> ah
06:56:45 <zzo38> And even http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/cgacoll.zip
06:57:06 <zzo38> Any file in cgacoll2.zip overrides the older version in cgacoll1.zip and those override the older version in cgacoll.zip
06:57:29 <zzo38> These are all DOS computer games.
06:58:03 <zzo38> (So you need to have DOS or a DOS emulator on your computer to run these.)
06:58:54 <zzo38> (Alternatively, recompile them for the operating system you use, if you can figure out how; they are all written in QBASIC.)
06:59:10 <Vorpal> spirity, I kind of regret not getting the second humble indie bundle for android. I had several of the games from before already. And I wasn't planning on getting any android device at the time. Now I have a Galaxy S3
06:59:12 <Vorpal> oh well
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07:01:13 <zzo38> spirity: Do you like this?
07:01:57 <spirity> zzo38: I'm probably not going to get a DOS emulator in my foreseeable lifetime.
07:02:42 <spirity> with the exception of implementing that IRC emulator sandbox that nortti- is also working on.
07:02:54 <spirity> -also (I'm not really working on it right now, but he is)
07:03:01 <pikhq_> spirity: Not even X on DOS would inspire you?
07:03:14 <spirity> is that possible?
07:03:20 <spirity> and: probably not, still.
07:03:20 <pikhq_> Yes.
07:03:34 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why would anyone care for X on DOS? After all I have X natively
07:03:41 <spirity> but an IRC bot with a DOS emulator sandbox HackEgo-style
07:03:43 <spirity> totally acceptable.
07:03:43 <pikhq_> DESQview/X
07:03:49 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Shits, giggles
07:04:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, Uh? I guess my brain just doesn't work that way.,
07:04:08 <Vorpal> s/,$//
07:04:47 <zzo38> I have written a single game for the GameBoy, so if you have a GameBoy emulator you can do that one. I have also made some game on Windows, so if you have Windows you can do that too. I have also written some MegaZeux games; you need MegaZeux but it is available for most computers (including Nintendo DS).
07:05:19 <Vorpal> zzo38, have you written any games using OpenGL or DirectX?
07:05:38 <spirity> I've made a chess variant. but it probably needs a revision.
07:06:09 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I thought it was sufficient incentive.
07:06:09 <zzo38> Vorpal: No.
07:06:18 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why would it be
07:06:50 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Because it's oddly enjoyable to IRC from DOS for 5 minutes.
07:06:51 <spirity> some peoples shits and giggles are not other peoples shits and giggles.
07:07:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, this game uses DirectX: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png
07:07:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I can't see the fun in that
07:07:41 <Vorpal> spirity, pretty much
07:07:51 <pikhq_> (I should note that DESQview/X also has a full TCP stack, and is usable with X's network transparency)
07:07:56 <fizzie> I've used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KA9Q to IRC from DOS; that thing is pretty spiffy.
07:08:07 <zzo38> How much can you understand or guess from this screenshot?
07:08:28 <Vorpal> <zzo38> Vorpal: Well, this game uses DirectX: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png <-- Really? For what?
07:09:15 <Vorpal> better question I guess is, have you written any game that uses OpenGL or Direct3D with a perspective projection
07:09:18 <spirity> or.... drawing graphics, I'd imagine.
07:09:21 <spirity> but what do I know.
07:09:25 <spirity> *for
07:09:52 <Vorpal> spirity, well DirectX, not Direct3D... So I guess he could be using DirectSound or something
07:10:07 <Vorpal> or DirectDraw
07:10:28 <itidus21> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure thats a mod of that tile puzzle game
07:10:38 <zzo38> No, I have not written any 3D perspective game.
07:10:46 <Vorpal> itidus21, which tile puzzle game??
07:10:57 <itidus21> i can't remember it's name
07:11:20 <zzo38> I have not made any game using 3D space so it won't use 3D view either.
07:12:35 <itidus21> MESH: Hero's Hearts
07:12:46 <zzo38> The game uses DirectX only because the programming language I used requires it. I don't use that programming language much anymore as it is Windows-only, slow, and proprietary.
07:13:03 <zzo38> itidus21: No, this game is not based on MESH: Hero's Hearts it is a different game.
07:13:10 <itidus21> yay
07:13:21 <zzo38> (But it does have hearts, though)
07:13:25 <itidus21> yeah the resolution is different.. i see that now
07:13:40 <zzo38> (as can be seen from the picture)
07:15:30 <zzo38> How much of the game do you expect would be understandable just by this screenshot? What kind of guess would you make about it?
07:16:24 <Vorpal> that it is not the kind of game I want to play
07:16:43 <zzo38> OK; why?
07:17:15 <Vorpal> It looks incredibly boring.
07:17:54 <zzo38> Do you not like this kind of puzzle game?
07:17:59 <Vorpal> probably a puzzle game or some such.
07:18:09 <Vorpal> also the graphics looks unpolished.
07:18:24 <Vorpal> (I don't mind low-fi graphics, but this just looks kind of ugly)
07:18:50 <Vorpal> zzo38, I don't really like puzzle games.
07:20:09 <itidus21> Vorpal: so, i figure you're reasonably smart. so this is evidence against a correlation of smart people liking puzzle games
07:20:30 <zzo38> OK
07:20:36 <Vorpal> itidus21, yes, who claimed that
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07:21:55 <itidus21> and an embodiment whereby smart people don't inherently like ascetic graphics
07:22:15 <Vorpal> itidus21, both of those ideas are utterly silly
07:22:44 <Vorpal> what was that game... A tower defence game, was in one of the humble bundles.
07:22:54 <Vorpal> had retro style graphics, very pretty
07:23:09 <Vorpal> only played a couple of levels, because it was tower defence (urgh)
07:23:15 <itidus21> humm
07:23:18 <zzo38> The level pictured is not particularly difficult. The more complicated ones are larger, may not all fit on the screen at once, and may include additional pieces such as star, train, bicycle, doors (open and closed), paper, web, upside-down spider, key, ghost, no-smoking sign, telephone, etc
07:23:44 <Vorpal> itidus21, the developer had "puppy" in their name I remember
07:24:04 <Vorpal> ah... Revenge of the Titans
07:24:17 <zzo38> O, and there is also lights and clocks
07:24:23 <itidus21> Vorpal: i'm not worried about making sense. just exploring this thing. cos i also tend to not like puzzle games.
07:24:24 <Vorpal> itidus21, that had retro graphics with some modern elements in it (I seem to recall some particle effects)
07:25:03 <zzo38> And the cluster of balls, and scientific experiment.
07:25:17 <Vorpal> itidus21, while minecraft has outright ugly graphics IMO. Unless you use a good texture pack
07:25:33 <Vorpal> in which case it is still not amazing, but it is reasonable enough
07:26:05 <itidus21> i think that the graphics is not the primary reason you don't want to play it
07:26:11 <zzo38> Do you like the graphics of CGA Collection? (they are all low-resolution CGA graphics or text 40x25)
07:26:12 <Vorpal> minecraft? Indeed
07:26:36 <itidus21> well the pic of zzo's game
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07:27:10 <zzo38> The game I pictured is not the CGA Collection, though.
07:27:22 <itidus21> nod nod
07:27:26 <Vorpal> zzo38, I have no idea, nor do I intend to play those games. And you asking people if they like your stuff every time something semi-relevant is being discussed is getting annoying.
07:27:29 <pikhq_> Clearly not. CGA is rather obvious.
07:28:43 <zzo38> Yes perhaps I should not always repeat myself
07:28:58 <Vorpal> hm VVVVVV. I sucked at that game. But damn was the sound track good.
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07:29:41 <Vorpal> as for the graphics, I don't think they were very good
07:30:19 <Vorpal> pikhq_, did you buy the last humble bundle btw?
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07:30:58 <pikhq_> Vorpal: No.
07:31:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, ouch, you missed out on some really awesome games
07:32:21 <Vorpal> hm why does lsusb on linux list hubs and such as being made by "Linux Foundation"?
07:32:28 <Vorpal> like: Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
07:33:06 <fizzie> CGA is only really obvious when someone's using the default palette.
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07:33:45 <Vorpal> huh, what did Gregor do
07:34:19 <fizzie> The X-green-red-brown (with a freely chosable X) isn't quite so obvious.
07:34:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? Couldn't you select any 16 colours in CGA?
07:35:46 <fizzie> In most modes, you can select one of the two four-color palettes, in which only one color is freely choosable.
07:35:52 <Vorpal> hm
07:35:57 <fizzie> That's why most CGA games are so full of magenta-cyan combinations.
07:36:16 <Vorpal> I thought CGA had 16 colours...
07:36:20 <fizzie> I mean, nobody would make things look like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alleycat.png if there wasn't a technical reason.
07:36:29 <Vorpal> true
07:36:37 <spirity> oh god
07:36:37 <fizzie> It has a total palette of 16 colours, that's true.
07:36:42 <spirity> I fucking hate those color combinations
07:36:55 <spirity> any of the subtractive colors put together
07:37:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did they do white or black then if they only had green red, brown and X?
07:37:09 <Vorpal> because that image has both
07:37:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: The X-green-red-brown is the alternative palette, as opposed to the default one, which that one is using.
07:37:47 <Vorpal> ah
07:37:52 <fizzie> And what everyone things of if the word "CGA" is mentioned.
07:38:05 <fizzie> It's X-magenta-cyan-white, with X=black by default.
07:38:11 <Vorpal> hm
07:38:43 <fizzie> I suppose the lack of white might explain why X-red-green-brown (or X-light red-light green-yellow) is not used so much.
07:39:10 <Vorpal> so you couldn't do all 16 colours at the same time hm
07:39:10 <fizzie> (You can toggle a high intensity bit to get the light versions of everything, but that's a global choice.)
07:39:31 <Vorpal> could you switch mode while drawing? Or only during vsync?
07:39:42 <fizzie> You can do all 16 in text mode, though.
07:39:49 <Vorpal> ah
07:40:08 <fizzie> And you can switch whenever, I'm pretty sure, but I don't think there's any sort of nice raster interrupt, so you'd need to be very careful with the timing.
07:40:38 <Vorpal> no hsync interrupt?
07:40:43 <fizzie> And it'd probably be tuned for a particular hardware combination then, which is not so good on the PC.
07:40:47 <Vorpal> or whatever you call it
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07:41:39 <fizzie> I think "raster interrupt" is the common word. Though it's a bit of a vague term.
07:41:45 <Vorpal> hm
07:42:23 <Vorpal> ouch, CGA had non-square pixels?
07:42:40 <ion> <fizzie> I suppose the lack of white might explain why X-red-green-brown (or X-light red-light green-yellow) is not used so much.
07:42:43 <ion> Racism!
07:43:28 <itidus21> i don't know why graphics are so complicated
07:43:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: Something shared with (the usual 320x200) VGA.
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07:43:52 <Vorpal> ion, not really. There are no "white" humans. Try to find a human with a skin colour of #000, you won't find any
07:44:14 <pikhq_> Vorpal: #FFF?
07:44:17 <Vorpal> err yes
07:44:18 <Vorpal> typo
07:44:27 <pikhq_> Mind, you won't find humans with a skin color of #000 either.
07:44:28 <pikhq_> :)
07:44:30 <Vorpal> true
07:44:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: (Possibly because 320*200 < 2^16 but 320*240 > 2^16 and VGA video memory lives in a0000..affff.)
07:44:51 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also you mean #fff, writing hexdecimal with upper case letters always annoys me
07:44:52 <fizzie> pikhq_: Maybe after a particularly bad fire...
07:44:56 <Vorpal> it looks so ugly
07:45:33 <pikhq_> Vorpal: 0xDEADBEEF
07:45:35 <Vorpal> thank god for modern graphics. No need to bother about VGA, SVGA and what not
07:45:39 <itidus21> there isn't really a good book for doing basic graphics in 2012
07:45:40 <Vorpal> pikhq_, 0xdeadbeef :P
07:45:54 <Vorpal> itidus21, what
07:46:07 <pikhq_> 0x!@#$$%^&*()
07:46:11 <Vorpal> nice
07:47:26 <Vorpal> also RGB or any such model is such a terrible representation of colour. It fails horrible when handling coloured light hitting a differently coloured object
07:47:27 <itidus21> fundamental graphics operations in 2012 is things like, render a bitmap so that it is visible to the user, and, render a sequence of frames while avoiding screen-tearing
07:47:51 <ion> Why does the case matter in numbers?
07:48:01 <Vorpal> ion, read the reason above
07:48:02 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Somehow I doubt RGB is meant to handle that.
07:48:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, indeed. So why do we use that to render graphics?
07:48:23 <Vorpal> you want full spectrum information
07:48:29 <Vorpal> itidus21, not very hard to do?
07:48:37 <fizzie> Vorpal: You also want things to be fast, you know.
07:48:43 <Vorpal> itidus21, you just need an artist to design the sprites and so on
07:48:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes sadly :/
07:48:50 <pikhq_> But, yes, RGB is a *terrible* model for any actual mangling of the color...
07:49:00 <pikhq_> What you want is a lab colorspace.
07:49:01 <spirity> Vorpal: it's the same reason we use PCM. it's a discrete sampling of continuous data.
07:49:11 <itidus21> Vorpal: it's just that each method of doing so has many idiosyncracies... so it is not actually possible to explain how to do it in general terms
07:49:24 <Vorpal> pikhq_, also it will sucks if we ever meet aliens.
07:50:22 <Vorpal> spirity, yes but that doesn't depend on the specific frequencies of that the human eye can see. It would work just as fine for an alien
07:50:33 <itidus21> so i guess what i would like is a guide to the idiosyncracies of graphics hardware and software
07:50:45 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Yes, but human art won't be sanely visible for aliens anyways...
07:51:01 <pikhq_> As that's based entirely in RGB.
07:51:03 <Vorpal> spirity, nor does it break when processing the data, as long as the sampling frequency and so on is good enough
07:51:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what about hand drawn stuff?
07:51:30 <fizzie> RGB for a color is more like representing all sounds as a weighted linear combination of three spectra than just discretization. The only reason we get away with it is because eyes.
07:51:32 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Our *pigments* only look right when viewed by an RGB viewer.
07:51:36 <Vorpal> pikhq_, ah
07:51:40 <Vorpal> right
07:51:47 <pikhq_> Our eyes are analog RGB samplers.
07:51:48 <spirity> fizzie: that makes so much sense.
07:51:56 <spirity> I hadn't thought of it that way.
07:52:04 <fizzie> Fortunately, most people use eyes to do much of their looking, as opposed to spectroscopes.
07:52:19 <pikhq_> Which makes RGB just about ideal for *rendering* things for humans...
07:52:43 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure I heard of tetrachromancy (sp?) exists in humans. Extremely rare. But I read something about that a couple of years ago
07:52:51 <Vorpal> only possible in females as well iirc
07:53:03 <pikhq_> Yeah, it's a recessive gene on the X chromosome.
07:53:19 <Vorpal> pikhq_, so what does art look like to them? Or computer graphics?
07:53:22 <Vorpal> horrible I guess?
07:53:33 <pikhq_> Weird, depends on how their eyes work.
07:53:39 <fizzie> "Further studies will need to be conducted to verify tetrachromacy in humans. Two possible tetrachromats have been identified: "Mrs. M", an English social worker, was located in a study conducted in 1993,[11] and an unidentified female physician near Newcastle, England, was discovered in a study reported in 2006.[10] Neither case has been fully verified."
07:53:42 <Vorpal> hm
07:53:44 <fizzie> It's a bit of a dubious thing.
07:53:48 <pikhq_> Unless they have RGB, they won't be able to view things like "brown".
07:53:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc wikipedia is a bit outdated on that
07:54:10 <itidus21> alleycat was a fun game
07:54:14 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well presumably they have RGBX or something like that?
07:54:17 <itidus21> i played it on my 8086
07:54:19 <fizzie> Anyway, at least the existing cells have pretty wide frequency response curves.
07:54:26 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Oh, wait, tetrachromats.
07:54:29 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Beats me.
07:54:32 <fizzie> I doubt a fourth type will make all that much of a difference.
07:54:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what did you think about?
07:54:42 <pikhq_> I don't know what the 4th cone is...
07:54:46 <pikhq_> I was thinking aliens.
07:54:54 <itidus21> infact, i think alleycat is better than most 3d games
07:55:00 <Vorpal> pikhq_, iirc it is between red and green
07:55:28 <pikhq_> I have no idea.
07:55:59 <pikhq_> Heck, the brain might just give up on figuring out an appropriate quale.
07:56:25 <Vorpal> what do you mean with "quale"?
07:56:34 <itidus21> singular of qualia
07:56:36 <itidus21> ?
07:56:39 <Vorpal> and what is that
07:56:39 <Vorpal> ...
07:56:41 <pikhq_> Yes.
07:57:10 <pikhq_> Term used in philosophy to refer to the subjective conscious experience of various sensations.
07:57:16 <Vorpal> okay
07:57:22 <Vorpal> hm
07:57:28 <pikhq_> (as opposed to the objective things they correspond to)
07:57:40 <Vorpal> still, what do you mean with the brain giving up on figuring out the quale then?
07:57:45 <fizzie> Anyway, colors are something you learn, so assuming you're born with one kind of eyes, you'll just get colors.
07:58:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, of course, but the thing is, would the colours on a computer monitor look realistic
07:58:15 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Is the brain actually capable of giving meaningful interpretations of RXGB?
07:58:32 <Vorpal> I don't know
07:58:41 <pikhq_> Or does it do something like treat X as half R and half G?...
07:58:42 <itidus21> Vorpal: qualia is best explained by that old question, do you and i see the same red?
07:58:57 <pikhq_> I have no idea how any of this works.
07:59:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Again, the frequency responses are pretty broad; my completely uninformed guess is that it'd be at least passable.
07:59:16 <fizzie> Apparently there's a paper from 2001 arguing that people with four photopigments have a "richer" view of colours, based on how much they speak about colours when describing things, to simplify a little.
07:59:26 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why shouldn't it be, if you grew up with it. After all far from all mamals have RGB. Even primates have different cone cell arrangements
07:59:37 <itidus21> Red Gray Brown
07:59:43 <Vorpal> itidus21, doesn't work
07:59:48 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Again, I have no fucking clue about how this actually works.
07:59:55 <pikhq_> I'm just making educated guesses.
07:59:57 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I forgot which primate it was, but one of them have 3 cone cells in females and 2 in males
08:00:03 <itidus21> lol
08:00:54 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Humans if there were any selection pressure in *favor* of color blindness? :)
08:01:09 <Vorpal> pikhq_, grammar parse error?
08:01:14 <Vorpal> or you lost a word
08:01:34 <pikhq_> Nah, just a somewhat weird usage.
08:01:48 <Vorpal> pikhq_, humans WHAT if there ...?
08:01:56 <pikhq_> "So, that would be humans, if there were any selection pressue in favor of color blindness?" Mild restating.
08:02:07 <Vorpal> hm maybe?
08:02:19 <Vorpal> why didn't nature develop spectrometers instead of simple colour sensors.
08:02:30 <pikhq_> Beats me.
08:02:32 <fizzie> It'd have been... slightly harder?
08:02:40 <pikhq_> It *did* with ears.
08:02:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, well sure, but it would be much more awesome
08:02:43 <fizzie> Also possibly not such a remarkable evolutionary benefit.
08:03:00 <pikhq_> (the cochlea approximates an analog Fourier transform)
08:03:02 <Vorpal> also I would like to see into ultraviolent and infrared
08:03:12 <fizzie> pikhq_: The frequencies involved are a bit different, though.
08:03:21 <itidus21> Vorpal: but uh.. you know how when your retina is catching a wavelength 650nm (pardon my confusion of terms), and the dictionary name for this is red, but aside from all that, qualia represents that raw direct subjective experience
08:03:29 <fizzie> I don't think it'd be very trivial to build a light-cochlea.
08:03:37 <fizzie> At least from the same materials.
08:03:51 <Vorpal> itidus21, pikhq_ explained it adequately above...?
08:04:03 <spirity> subjectively, red is the color of afro voodoo magic.
08:04:16 <spirity> you cannot deny this.
08:04:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well obviously one is pressure based and the other is based on electromagnetism
08:04:41 <pikhq_> Evolution has this nasty tendency to do things that are trivial improvements, rather than what makes any sense. :)
08:04:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: I'm just saying that it's easier to deal with one than with the other.
08:04:49 <Vorpal> pikhq_, true
08:05:04 <fizzie> Anyway, you can tell a tiger from a bush without having to consider the full spectra of tiger-fur and bush-leaves.
08:05:20 <Vorpal> anyway what about small prisms in front of a row of light sensitive molecules?
08:05:37 <pikhq_> An engineer would do that.
08:05:43 <Vorpal> well yes
08:06:09 <pikhq_> Evolution leaves a vestigial retina in the brain.
08:06:21 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm?
08:06:31 <Vorpal> what do you mean?
08:06:37 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The pineal gland is a highly vestigial eye, part of it is a non-functional retina.
08:06:57 <Vorpal> huh
08:07:23 <spirity> pikhq_: it's like the third eye, man.
08:07:26 <fizzie> You could do a reasonable approximation by just having, say, 256 different types of cone cells with narrower frequency responses that we currently have.
08:07:38 <fizzie> That's also something that an engineer might do.
08:07:46 <Sgeo_> I kind of miss webtv
08:07:49 <pikhq_> Especially that number.
08:08:04 <Vorpal> hah yes
08:08:06 <fizzie> Both that and the prism thing have tradeoffs when it comes to resolution, though, since you need to fit multiple elements per spatial location.
08:08:16 <itidus21> <Ginto8> also watching MLP:FiM because it's fucking amazing <Ginto8> bronyness is not a choice, it is a calling.
08:08:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think the prism solution might give a better resolution perhaps
08:08:48 <Vorpal> anyway I wouldn't mind a slightly larger sensor area
08:08:53 <pikhq_> spirity: In ancient times the pineal gland was called the third eye...
08:09:05 <itidus21> Sgeo_: i played a dragon ball z based byond game once..
08:09:12 <pikhq_> spirity: Unwittingly appropriate.
08:09:18 <pikhq_> itidus21: Hah.
08:09:30 <fizzie> Vorpal: Depends possibly on what kind of things you look, and how well you can do the interpolation. The different-cones version is basically like the bayer pattern in a digital camera, except with more colors.
08:09:36 <Sgeo_> There are seemingly 20 million dragon ball z based games, half of which use images ripped from the other half
08:09:37 <Sgeo_> on BYOND
08:09:38 <itidus21> i wasn't any good at the roleplay side of things though
08:09:54 <spirity> pikhq_: it also makes stuff that makes hallucinate. so yes. it makes sense in that light as well.
08:09:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm...
08:09:55 <fizzie> So you get better luma resolution than chroma resolution, sort-of.
08:10:04 <fizzie> Assuming things you look are reasonably wide-spectrum.
08:10:42 <Vorpal> what about trading time-resolution for chroma-resolution?
08:10:47 <pikhq_> fizzie: Which is true of humans too...
08:11:16 <Vorpal> you could have the light sensitive molecules being replaced a hundred times per second or so. Cycling between say 16 different ones
08:11:29 <fizzie> pikhq_: In the eye it really depends on the region of the retina, too. (I'm not sure an engineer would do *that*.)
08:11:31 <pikhq_> Makes sense: luma is relevant for fine detail. Chroma is kinda just bonus.
08:11:31 <Vorpal> some sort of wheel?
08:11:48 <pikhq_> fizzie: Even at the most color-sensitive areas we're far more luma sensitive.
08:12:00 <Vorpal> or why not panchromatic sensors and different light filters
08:12:13 <Vorpal> I believe that is what is done in astrophotography
08:12:38 <spirity> why didn't nature just make efficient perfect beings of infinite energy
08:12:43 <spirity> and efficiency
08:12:48 <Vorpal> you could have the retina change filtering characteristics rapidly over a short time
08:12:51 <pikhq_> Damned hill-climbing algorithms.
08:13:18 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well said
08:13:21 <spirity> ITC: Vorpal disputes the effectiveness of the universe.
08:13:38 <Vorpal> spirity, "ITC" meaning? International Trade Something?
08:13:45 <spirity> in this channel
08:13:47 <Sgeo_> In This Channel
08:13:48 <Vorpal> ah
08:13:56 <spirity> as in "in this thread" except that doesn't make sense here.
08:14:06 <spirity> unless you interpret "thread" to mean "thread of discussion"
08:14:10 <Vorpal> spirity, actually I think I dispute the efficiency rather than the effectiveness?
08:14:28 <pikhq_> Evolution sure as hell *works*.
08:14:28 <spirity> it seems like you're talking about the deficiency.
08:14:31 <Vorpal> spirity, I don't use forums much, so I'm not familiar with "in this thread"
08:14:44 <fizzie> pikhq_: Well, obviously, since you need three kinds of cones to get the "full" chroma, while you get some amount of independent luma information from each of them.
08:14:53 <spirity> it's one of several ways to descend into meta-discussion about the weirdness of a topic.
08:14:57 <fizzie> But there's no rods right there in the middle, so low-light vision is close to nil there.
08:15:15 <fizzie> Then again, an engineer *definitely* wouldn't do the thing with the optic nerve.
08:15:22 <fizzie> At least an engineer you'd rehire.
08:15:27 <pikhq_> It's friggin' backwards!
08:15:51 <fizzie> That's what it is, and other species have it the right way around, with no unnecessary blind spots.
08:15:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, you mean the blind spot?
08:16:00 <fizzie> Yes.
08:16:02 <Vorpal> yeah it is terrible
08:16:07 * pikhq_ shall steal an octopus's eye
08:16:23 <Vorpal> <fizzie> That's what it is, and other species have it the right way around, with no unnecessary blind spots. <-- hm only humans have blind spots?
08:16:25 <Vorpal> or what
08:16:33 <fizzie> Well, s/other/some other/
08:16:35 <Vorpal> ah
08:16:37 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Cephalopods.
08:16:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, oh so everyone except Cephalopods have it backwards?
08:17:25 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Well, yes, except it's only the cephalopods and vertebrates that have eyes of the sort.
08:17:40 <spirity> as an intelligent being inside this system, I feel like my capability of judging the systems merits in any way is not effective. We can only really accurately observe the events that come from it, and find patterns in it. Any kind of normative analysis is bound to be flawed in some way.
08:17:44 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm?
08:18:03 <pikhq_> Vorpal: As far as I know, nothing else has the whole lens and retina thing going on.
08:18:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what about eyes in other groups? Like whatever group spiders are in?
08:18:12 <Vorpal> ah
08:18:23 <pikhq_> Those are single photosensitive cells, aren't they?
08:18:41 <Vorpal> surely they are larger than single cells?
08:18:46 <Vorpal> and they have 8 eyes right?
08:19:06 <fizzie> Some of them have that compound eye thing going on.
08:19:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is that
08:19:23 <fizzie> Like some thousands of individual "eyes".
08:19:26 <Vorpal> ah
08:19:31 <fizzie> Oriented a bit differently.
08:19:34 <pikhq_> I though compound eyes were bunches of lenses before bunches of single photosensitive cells.
08:20:04 <fizzie> Yes, those being the individual "eyes".
08:20:21 <fizzie> So no spatial stuff going on in there, just from the combined outputs.
08:20:49 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye#Types_of_eye lists quite a few types.
08:21:08 <fizzie> Ten counting the section titles.,
08:21:20 <Sgeo_> I just realized I'm literally sitting in the room that I used to play with WebTV in while listening to WebTV music
08:22:29 <spirity> perfect tense is a fun tense.
08:22:43 <Vorpal> webtv? what is that
08:22:51 <pikhq_> The spookfish eye is probably my favorite, just for sheer weirdness.
08:23:07 <Vorpal> pikhq_, tell us about them
08:24:01 <Sgeo_> Vorpal, a dial-up box you would attach to your TV to let you surf the web without a computer
08:24:07 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, I see
08:24:14 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, it had special music?
08:24:16 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They use both refractive and reflective optics.
08:24:23 <Vorpal> pikhq_, how
08:24:30 <Sgeo_> Music that you could play in the background while you surfed, yeah
08:24:35 <pikhq_> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Spookeye.svg
08:24:46 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway don't cats do that? They have lenses but then mirrors behind the cone cells
08:24:50 <Vorpal> or rods or whatever
08:25:06 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I have no idea how to interpret that drawinbg
08:25:08 <Vorpal> drawing*
08:25:10 <pikhq_> They're a form of barreleye fish (i.e. they have a transparent head, so the eye can move around)
08:25:22 <pikhq_> Vorpal: The right side is the normal eye, which looks up.
08:25:35 <pikhq_> The left side is a mirror feeding into a retina, which looks down.
08:25:35 <Vorpal> ah
08:25:40 <Vorpal> I se
08:25:42 <Vorpal> see*
08:25:58 <Sgeo_> There was a remote for it
08:26:03 <Sgeo_> And you could buy a keyboard for it
08:26:12 <Vorpal> pikhq_, so they see both up and down? With the same eye?
08:26:14 <Vorpal> okay
08:26:15 <pikhq_> Yes.
08:26:15 <fizzie> Hey, now that you mention it, I kind of remember WebTV.
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08:26:23 <fizzie> Not that I've seen one live.
08:26:44 <fizzie> It always sounded like having a computer except not quite a real one.
08:27:27 <Vorpal> presumably you could have flashed custom firmware to the device
08:27:35 <Vorpal> after all it probably was a low end computer in it
08:27:42 <Vorpal> had*
08:27:43 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Barreleye fish are themselves pretty weird...
08:27:44 <pikhq_> http://www.mbari.org/news/news_releases/2009/barreleye/barreleye1-350.jpg
08:28:04 <pikhq_> The eyes there are the green domes in the middle of the skull.
08:28:13 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what are the eye-like things on the front then?
08:28:26 <pikhq_> Olfactory organs.
08:28:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Regarding the cats, from what I recall, they just have a reflective coating behind the retina so that you get a bit more photons in for the low-light case.
08:28:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, heh
08:28:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, indeed
08:28:54 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YblbVNPKw only video of WebTV I could find
08:28:57 <Vorpal> so their eyes is a combination of reflection and refraction
08:29:03 <pikhq_> Yes.
08:29:06 <fizzie> Only in a rather minor sense, though.
08:29:10 <Vorpal> well yes
08:29:11 <pikhq_> Well. Not most barreleye fish.
08:29:15 <pikhq_> Just the spookfish.
08:29:20 <Vorpal> pikhq_, I meant the cats
08:29:22 <Sgeo_> Hmm, that commercial only shows the TV side
08:29:24 <pikhq_> Ah. Right.
08:29:25 <pikhq_> Yeah.
08:29:25 <Sgeo_> Oh, no it doesn't
08:29:40 <pikhq_> They're just not using the god-damned weird reflective optics.
08:29:44 <Sgeo_> There's a few seconds of showing the web stuff
08:30:01 <Vorpal> pikhq_, how is reflective optics weird?
08:30:16 <fizzie> In the dark, all cats are grey. (That's what they say.)
08:30:21 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway these fishes, are they deep sea ones?
08:30:25 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Name to me some animals other than spookfish that use it.
08:30:47 <Vorpal> I'm not a biologist. I wouldn't know
08:30:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, but the principles look the same as for telescopes
08:31:10 <fizzie> pikhq_: "Many small organisms such as rotifers, copepods and platyhelminths use such organs, but these are too small to produce usable images.[1] Some larger organisms, such as scallops, also use reflector eyes. The scallop Pecten has up to 100 millimetre-scale reflector eyes fringing the edge of its shell. It detects moving objects as they pass successive lenses."
08:31:18 <fizzie> Admittedly spookfish is the only listed vertebrate there.
08:31:25 <fizzie> (From that "Types of eye" list.)
08:31:26 <pikhq_> Ah, hmm.
08:31:31 <ion> Rotifer sounds like a Nethack monster that causes rotting.
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08:31:46 <Vorpal> ion, to me it sounds like an enemy from Witcher 2
08:31:51 <Vorpal> I'm pretty sure that existed
08:32:27 <Vorpal> oh no, it was "rotfiend"
08:32:33 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's only weird because *hardly anything else* does it.
08:32:37 <spirity> it's weird how English has no way to distinguish different kinds of future tenses
08:32:43 <Vorpal> pikhq_, right
08:32:58 <spirity> you can't use tense to distinguish a future event relative to a future reference point.
08:33:08 <pikhq_> And the spookfish is weird in a different way: an engineer would just give that thing four eyes of the same sort.
08:33:11 <spirity> like you can describe past events from a past reference point.
08:33:15 <Vorpal> pikhq_, hm how does human eyes handle chromatic aberration?
08:33:23 <Vorpal> do our brains compensate the positions?
08:34:12 <pikhq_> Vorpal: By not being sensitive to colors when that'd matter, I suspect.
08:34:35 <Vorpal> pikhq_, oh right, TCA is not so much of a problem near the middle true
08:34:45 <Vorpal> though it still does happen near the middle of lenses
08:34:49 <Vorpal> just not very much
08:34:59 <pikhq_> spirity: And English is more precise about them than some.
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08:35:58 <Vorpal> also it is sad humans have fixed zoom :/
08:36:16 <pikhq_> spirity: Japanese, for instance, has a present/future tense, not a future tense.
08:36:17 <spirity> it sucks that we don't have rocket feet.
08:36:26 <pikhq_> It sucks that we don't have wheels.
08:36:33 <spirity> rocket wheels
08:36:39 <pikhq_> Sure.
08:36:41 <spirity> so we can fly when we're not rolling down grassy slopes
08:36:45 <pikhq_> And prehensile wings.
08:36:46 <Vorpal> an engineer would never have done that in a high end model like humans (I mean, we have one of the top end brains of the animal kingdom)
08:37:17 <Vorpal> spirity, wheels have technical problems though
08:37:25 <Vorpal> it doesn't really work as well as legs on uneven terrain
08:37:27 <spirity> yes, which are negated by rocket feet.
08:37:27 <pikhq_> If an engineer were going to give humans legs, we'd look like centaurs.
08:37:32 <Vorpal> spirity, right
08:37:58 <spirity> we'd just have to eat a lot of food to produce the highly explosive rocket fuel.
08:38:04 <pikhq_> Bipedalism is just a *royal friggin' pain*.
08:38:05 <Vorpal> pikhq_, actually two legs are more efficient at navigating steep terrain than four legs
08:38:05 <spirity> but that's okay with rocket feet we'd be excellent predators.
08:38:15 <Vorpal> pikhq_, from what I remember
08:39:12 <Vorpal> why aren't there any three-legged creatures?
08:39:13 <Vorpal> or are there?
08:39:19 <pikhq_> 1 word: goats.
08:39:21 <spirity> it's also more efficient for long distance running.
08:39:24 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what?
08:39:27 <pikhq_> They are stupidly good at steep terrain.
08:39:28 <Vorpal> oh right
08:39:30 <Vorpal> true
08:39:50 <pikhq_> spirity: True, and that is what we did in the ancestral environment.
08:39:54 <spirity> yep.
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08:40:06 <spirity> we also used it to our advantage when hunting, and still do.
08:40:06 <Taneb> Hello
08:40:20 <spirity> so we could chase prey until they grew tired.
08:40:34 <Vorpal> pikhq_, anyway what creatures with an odd number of legs? Are there any?
08:40:44 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I don't know of any.
08:40:47 <Vorpal> hm
08:40:50 <Vorpal> that is interesting
08:41:02 <spirity> it's probably not very efficient?
08:41:04 <pikhq_> Vorpal: All the animals with appendages are bilaterians.
08:41:11 <Vorpal> pikhq_, "bilaterians"?
08:41:17 <Vorpal> what does that mean
08:41:22 <pikhq_> The clade of animals with bilateral symmetry.
08:41:22 <spirity> bilaterial
08:41:23 <spirity> ness
08:41:33 <Vorpal> spirity, okay so what does "bilaterial" mean?
08:41:42 <spirity> "line symmetry"
08:41:44 <Vorpal> ah
08:41:47 <Vorpal> hm
08:41:58 <spirity> there's a line you can divide us up into where the 2 halves are more or less the same.
08:41:59 <Vorpal> pikhq_, you could have a leg in the middle
08:42:22 <pikhq_> True.
08:42:31 <pikhq_> Guess there was some reason not to.
08:42:41 <Vorpal> or just chance
08:42:43 <Vorpal> who knows
08:42:53 <spirity> SCIENCE KNOWS
08:43:01 <Vorpal> maybe not yet
08:43:07 <pikhq_> Stochastic hill climbing algorithms are really hard to reverse engineer. :P
08:43:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Chelgarians have that midlimb, IIRC. (The downside is that they're entirely fictional.)
08:43:23 <Vorpal> ah
08:43:34 <Vorpal> that is indeed a downside in this discussion
08:43:56 <pikhq_> Vorpal: I guess there are male elephants? Their... penis is prehensile and can bear weight.
08:44:09 <Vorpal> huh
08:44:11 <Vorpal> really
08:44:16 <pikhq_> Yes.
08:44:31 <Vorpal> actually now that you mention it, I have a vague memory of hearing about that
08:44:50 <Vorpal> pikhq_, do they use it as an extra leg though?
08:44:57 * spirity was trying to find an intelligent way to incorporate penises into this discussion after middle appendages were mentioned, but couldn't come up with anything.
08:46:05 <pikhq_> Vorpal: When trying to maintain balance.
08:46:09 <Vorpal> huh
08:46:22 <pikhq_> http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/wp-content/blogs.dir/474/files/2012/04/i-2325d7f6567e1a7459f965b85b2d82cd-Elephant-penis.jpg
08:46:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: Re chromatic aberration, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromostereopsis
08:48:03 <spirity> it's interesting the different survival strategies of life.
08:48:11 <Vorpal> hm
08:48:14 <spirity> some species are very inactive. consume little. do little.
08:48:25 <Vorpal> spirity, such as Americans ;)
08:48:37 <Vorpal> okay they don't consume a little
08:48:42 <Vorpal> but otherwise yes
08:48:43 <spirity> I'd say humans as a whole are on the opposite end of the spectrum.
08:48:47 <Vorpal> indeed
08:48:50 <spirity> depending on how you define "do"
08:48:57 <spirity> we move a lot of energy around.
08:49:02 <spirity> regardless of its origin.
08:50:45 <spirity> IIRC, beavers are second place in terms of altering their environment.
08:51:00 <Vorpal> heh
08:51:52 <pikhq_> Makes sense.
08:52:09 <pikhq_> Only other animal I can think of that notably alters the environment on short time scales.
08:52:42 <spirity> perhaps some kind of fungus?
08:52:53 <spirity> depending on what you count as an animal
08:52:56 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well, a lot of animals build various kind of nests and so on
08:53:00 <Vorpal> foxes for example
08:53:20 <spirity> beavers completely alter the flow of rivers though.
08:53:21 <Vorpal> various tunneling rodents too
08:53:46 <pikhq_> Friggin' *dams* though.
08:53:52 <Vorpal> spirity, right, but if it didn't have effect downstreams, it wouldn't end up as highly on that list
08:54:10 <spirity> I mean damn.
08:54:12 <pikhq_> Well, yeah. If it weren't for that it'd be not much different from, say, bees.
08:54:14 <spirity> frickin' dams.
08:54:15 <spirity> :>
08:54:24 <Vorpal> pikhq_, bees?
08:54:31 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They make hives.
08:54:33 <Vorpal> well yes
08:54:48 <pikhq_> And many other animals make analogous homes.
08:54:51 <Vorpal> pikhq_, and there are various rodents that build dwellings below ground
08:54:57 <Vorpal> and termites and what not
08:55:04 <pikhq_> Nobody else intentionally dams a river, though.
08:55:11 <spirity> I can't remember which insects build huge ground-based hives. Maybe it was some species of ant?
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08:55:27 <pikhq_> spirity: Termite.
08:55:30 <spirity> or maybe it was a wasp or something.
08:55:34 <spirity> I think it was a flying insect.
08:55:55 <pikhq_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Termite_Cathedral_DSC03570.jpg That's a termite mound.
08:56:12 <spirity> ah yeah that's the one
08:56:28 <Vorpal> iirc termites can fly. That is queens during part of their life. or so
08:56:35 <pikhq_> They can go up to 30ft (9m) high.
08:56:36 <Vorpal> some sort of ant or termite anyway
08:56:59 <spirity> any kind of insect that resembles another insect but with wings scares me for some reason
08:57:03 <Vorpal> pikhq_, why do they look like that? Why the vertical element to them?
08:57:21 <Vorpal> pikhq_, cooling towers?
08:57:22 <spirity> like there's a species around here that resembles huge cockroaches but with large wings.
08:57:27 <Vorpal> they remind me of that
08:57:34 <fizzie> Plain old conical anthills can get pretty large too.
08:57:40 <pikhq_> Vorpal: They do in fact keep the towers at a precise temperature.
08:57:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_, oh?
08:57:54 <Vorpal> pikhq_, what do they store in them?
08:57:56 <pikhq_> Within 1°C of a constant temperature, always.
08:58:04 <pikhq_> Some species maintain fungal colonies for food.
08:58:07 <Vorpal> ah
08:58:44 <spirity> you could say that kudzu alters its environment quite a bit when it grows in the southeast US, by completely engulfing it. :P
08:58:56 <spirity> entire sections of forest.
08:59:03 <pikhq_> Also, they are sometimes in really, really hot places.
08:59:09 <Vorpal> spirity, not in short term?
08:59:13 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_giant_African_ant_hill_with_somone_on_it.JPG Wikipedia has the best file names.
08:59:18 <pikhq_> If they didn't work to cool it, any colony would roast.
08:59:24 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Kudzu grows really quickly.
08:59:27 <fizzie> It's Exactly What It Says On The Tin.
08:59:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wouldn't want to be that guy
08:59:38 <spirity> several feet per day I believe?
08:59:52 <Vorpal> hm
08:59:55 <Vorpal> spirity, wow
09:00:01 <spirity> maybe not that much
09:00:04 <spirity> several inches maybe
09:00:05 <Vorpal> spirity, so could you see it growing while watching?
09:00:08 <Vorpal> ah
09:00:19 <spirity> kudzu's kind of a problem here.
09:00:25 <Vorpal> I see
09:00:37 <Vorpal> spirity, are they native to the area?
09:00:40 <spirity> no
09:00:42 <Vorpal> ah
09:00:58 <Vorpal> where did they grow natively?
09:01:04 <pikhq_> Japan.
09:01:05 <spirity> it's from China I believe.
09:01:08 <Vorpal> ah
09:01:16 <pikhq_> It's kept in check by winter.
09:01:33 <pikhq_> It apparently grows up to 1 foot per day.
09:01:36 <Vorpal> heh
09:01:39 <Vorpal> so 30 cm
09:01:43 <pikhq_> Yeah.
09:01:57 <pikhq_> Problem is, the South doesn't have much of a winter.
09:02:02 <pikhq_> So, the kudzu grows year round.
09:02:03 <spirity> http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/invasivetutorial/images/kudzu4.jpg
09:02:05 <spirity> kudzu
09:02:07 <Vorpal> ah
09:02:08 <fizzie> Environmental effects and animals: rabbits, Australia.
09:02:19 <Vorpal> spirity, they grow over trees?
09:02:24 <Vorpal> spirity, or what are the vertical things?
09:02:25 <spirity> yep
09:02:27 <pikhq_> They're a vine.
09:02:31 <Vorpal> I see
09:02:40 <mroman> Australian bears covered by alien plants?
09:02:40 <Vorpal> why would you have introduced them to the area?
09:02:54 <spirity> accident
09:02:54 <Vorpal> mroman, "Australian bears"?
09:03:15 <Vorpal> spirity, so what do you do to deal with those plants?
09:03:17 <pikhq_> Vorpal: Japanese pavilion in the 1876 Centennial Exposition in Philadelphia.
09:03:21 <Vorpal> ouch
09:03:34 <mroman> Vorpal: No bears in australia?
09:03:39 <mroman> What a pitty.
09:03:42 <pikhq_> As for dealing with them: WIP.
09:03:55 <fizzie> "Effects on Australia's ecology: Since their introduction from Europe in the 19th century, the effect of rabbits on the ecology of Australia has been devastating. They are suspected of being the most significant known factor in species loss in Australia. The loss of plant species is unknown at this time. Rabbits often kill young trees in orchards, forests and on properties by ringbarking them. ...
09:04:00 <Vorpal> mroman, what does Australia have to do with it at all?
09:04:01 <fizzie> ... Rabbits are also responsible for serious erosion problems, as they eat native plants, leaving the topsoil exposed and vulnerable to sheet, gully and wind erosion. The removal of this topsoil is devastating to the land, as it takes many hundreds of years to regenerate."
09:04:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes I know
09:04:37 <Vorpal> not bears though
09:04:38 * spirity didn't know.
09:04:47 <pikhq_> Vorpal: It's not even like it'd be impossible to come up with a use for it...
09:05:08 <Vorpal> pikhq_, well of course, you can use it for whatever it was used for over where it was native
09:05:22 <pikhq_> Food.
09:05:25 <Vorpal> indeed
09:05:36 <Vorpal> medicine too it seems
09:05:38 <pikhq_> It's also usable for making ethanol.
09:05:58 <Vorpal> I presume you American does take advantage of it like that?
09:06:10 <pikhq_> Nope!
09:06:14 <Vorpal> why not
09:06:21 <spirity> Vorpal: these "vertical things" do look pretty weird. those trees are probably complete dead from lack of sunlight.
09:06:22 <pikhq_> It's not corn, and we're idiots.
09:06:40 <Vorpal> pikhq_, ...?
09:06:42 <pikhq_> (ethanol *from corn* is subsidised for fuel)
09:06:51 <Vorpal> spirity, no branches
09:07:16 <Vorpal> pikhq_, you could still use it for other stuff
09:07:20 <Vorpal> that isn't fuel
09:07:35 <spirity> it's edible. I've never tried it though
09:07:49 <pikhq_> Careful, you're proposing logic.
09:08:11 <fizzie> Hey, speaking of which. Antwerpen zoo's gift shop sold paper made out of poo. They were very proud of it.
09:08:35 <fizzie> Didn't buy any, though I did consider buying a notepad and giving it as a gift to someone at work.
09:08:45 <Vorpal> pikhq_, yes?
09:08:47 <fizzie> "You can write your feedback suggestions on this, it'd really fit."
09:08:58 <fizzie> Bullshit on bullshit, and so on.
09:09:04 <Vorpal> heh
09:09:16 <fizzie> Don't know anyone to diss like that, really, so skipped.
09:09:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, did it smell badly?
09:09:35 <fizzie> I didn't smell anything.
09:09:39 <fizzie> This brand, I think: http://new.poopoopaper.com/
09:09:51 <spirity> what kind of poop?
09:10:02 <pikhq_> Vorpal: We drive vehicles large enough to be a rollover risk. Thinking is not our strong suite.
09:10:02 <fizzie> "POOPOOPAPER? products are natural, recycled and odorless (!) paper products made from poop from a variety of different fiber-eating vegetarian animals such as elephants, cows, horses, moose, pandas, and donkeys. That right! Go figure!"
09:10:08 <spirity> ah
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09:10:13 <Vorpal> I have a ruler here, made out of recycled circuit board (and a metal bit around the edges so it works as a ruler
09:10:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's like reusing computer poo, then.
09:10:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes, that is why I mentioned it
09:11:12 <fizzie> "Take your time to explore our site and our POOPOOPAPER WEBSTORE called ?THE POOTIQUE?."
09:11:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, the company that made it had like a one page web site last I checked
09:11:18 <fizzie> Really, it was mostly about the puns.
09:11:21 <Vorpal> I was wondering if they were still around
09:11:43 <spirity> I got an interesting idea for a website recently.
09:12:10 <spirity> essentially a service that allows you to create a very small virtual server instance, for the purpose of security testing.
09:12:11 <fizzie> "We take the 'oo' out of poo!" "FECAL MATTER O'FACTS" it's like an endless succession of bad puns.
09:12:25 <spirity> you have a public listing of all the servers, and information about how to login.
09:12:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, "CompuNote", can only find a Brazillian page now. The web site printed on the item is dead
09:12:46 -!- gushen has quit (Client Quit).
09:12:53 <Vorpal> (compunote.net)
09:12:56 -!- gushen has joined.
09:13:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is still this however: http://www.compunote.com.br/indexp.htm
09:13:10 <spirity> so you have people testing the security of their software, and people trying to break in.
09:13:28 <spirity> but I have no clue how to implement it in any practical sense.
09:13:37 <spirity> I just think it's a neat idea.
09:13:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: People do "jewelry" from computer chips, I know that.
09:13:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
09:14:03 <fizzie> And one restaurant in Otaniemi is IIRC decorated with old motherboards.
09:14:05 <Vorpal> I should take a picture of the thing
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09:14:23 <gushen> I know the programming language of the universe and I can explain it to you. But I have only 20 minutes. Private chat only.
09:14:25 <spirity> there's a lot of unaffiliated people here.
09:14:32 <Vorpal> it is kind of neat. Somewhat damaged from when I used it with a paper cutter and ended up on the ruler by mistake though
09:14:37 <Taneb> gushen, I'll take it
09:14:44 <gushen> all right sir
09:15:12 <fizzie> Taneb: I'd be careful around the part where your credit card info is asked.
09:15:26 <Vorpal> I think I bought the thing at some tech museum gift shop thingy like 10 years ago
09:21:41 <spirity> has anyone seen the "what if" xkcd stuff?
09:21:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111712.jpg and http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111718.jpg
09:22:06 <Taneb> spirity, yeah, it's really gone downhill since it started
09:22:23 <Vorpal> Taneb, oh? got a link?
09:22:38 <Vorpal> nvm
09:22:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Fery Fancy.
09:22:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, what
09:23:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Very Vancy.
09:23:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is a mobile phone camera, so quality is meh
09:23:09 <spirity> Taneb: well, there's only three so far. that's not a very big sample size.
09:23:16 <spirity> and 2 out of 3 are good
09:23:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, what was the point of that spelling?
09:23:28 <Taneb> http://what-if.xkcd.com/
09:23:43 <Taneb> But yeah, I enjoyed the first one most, and I'm making a joke at the expense of xkcd
09:23:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: No point. I don't do points.
09:23:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: What's that bottom side?
09:25:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, some kind of high friction surface
09:26:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, like a very compact plastic foam kind of thing
09:26:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, no idea what it is called
09:27:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is a very nice ruler except that because of the high friction thingy standing out a bit it isn't ideal to use to draw straight lines, the distance between the edge and the paper is maybe a millimetre or so
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09:33:11 <Vorpal> Taneb, I think all three so far was okay. The first one was most interesting. But one of them were bad as such
09:34:10 <Vorpal> https://www.xkcd.com/1083/ <-- I don't get this one
09:36:10 <Sgeo_> Presumably, politicians are using what some people call txtspeak more often than teenagers are, and a lot of teenagers are into Ron paul?
09:36:24 <Vorpal> are they? okay
09:36:39 <Vorpal> well I hate "txtspeak"
09:37:09 <Taneb> Are you a senator?
09:37:17 <Vorpal> no?
09:39:36 <Taneb> Then you shouldn't use txtspeak
09:39:59 <Vorpal> hah
09:41:24 <Jafet> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/3994
09:42:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://web.archive.org/web/20080910194707/http://www.compunote.net/en/index.html
09:44:46 <Vorpal> Jafet, how pointless
09:57:00 <itidus21> Vorpal: whoa thats cool man
09:57:40 <Vorpal> itidus21, see the image of my ruler above
09:57:45 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> fizzie, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111712.jpg and http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/20120723_111718.jpg
10:00:58 <nortti> Vorpal: is there any use for the circuit bord in that ruler?
10:01:08 <Vorpal> nortti, no. Read the context
10:01:30 <nortti> oh
10:03:15 <itidus21> nortti: the purpose is it looks cool, and it's a solid material structure
10:03:40 <itidus21> and, also, it will otherwise be in landfill
10:05:05 <Vorpal> hm I wonder what the circuit board was originally from
10:05:40 <Vorpal> the text next to the various connectors doesn't really help at all
10:05:48 <Vorpal> it is mostly just R for resistors and so on
10:06:29 <Vorpal> if anyone wants to have a go at guessing I could make a high resolution scan of the ruler
10:27:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "ICD1" header in the other end could be some sort of a debugging/programming connector place.
10:30:38 <fizzie> (Then again, it could as well be something completely different.)
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10:44:19 <spirity> I doubt that matters
10:44:38 <spirity> wrong window. :>
10:45:08 <fizzie> if any(double(est_utt_gpu(:))==0); disp('Zero hats 1') -- I don't know why, but the nonsensicality of "Zero hats 1" made me smile.
10:45:42 <kmc> yes
10:45:46 <nortti> what language is that?
10:45:51 <fizzie> nortti: Matlab.
10:46:06 <kmc> one place i worked had a line of code like
10:46:26 <kmc> if (n == 37698410) printf("shitter?? here???\n");
10:47:10 <fizzie> There's a similar test later on with, yes, "Zero hats 2" as the message. The "zero" part is obvious; the "hats" part is a bit more involved.
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10:50:49 <Vorpal> huh, the hubble telescope is in a very low orbit
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10:53:59 <olsner> if you stand on the ground, does that count as an orbit?
10:54:05 <fizzie> nortti: Or, to be exact, it's Matlab with the "GPUmat" CUDA toolbox thingie; that explains the otherwise useless double().
10:54:07 <Vorpal> heh
10:54:55 <Vorpal> olsner, well Hubble is actually in the upper atmosphere. While stuff like GPS is several times further away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_satellite_navigation_orbits.svg
10:55:00 <ogrom> hienoa
10:55:00 <fizzie> olsner: I'm sure it's called VLGO (Very Low Geostationary Orbit) or something by professionals.
10:55:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, :D
10:55:39 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that should be geosynchronous.
10:56:06 <fizzie> Since apparently geostationary means the special case of having the "correct" altitude.
10:56:12 <Vorpal> heh
10:56:34 <olsner> right, because you're at the wrong altitude for having the orbit you're having
10:56:59 <fizzie> Oh, and geostationary seems to be above-the-equator too.
10:57:11 <fizzie> (Not an astrophysicist.)
10:57:35 <fizzie> olsner: Maybe it counts as some sort of powered orbit. With luck, they'd make a seven-letter acronym for it.
10:58:40 <fizzie> I'm sure someone would nitpick that it's not a real orbit if it doesn't, you know, orbit.
10:58:59 <fizzie> You know, be defined by gravity.
10:59:23 <Vorpal> I think it is the only orbit that is geosynchronous due to friction
10:59:45 <Vorpal> (presumably?)
11:00:12 <olsner> hmm, I think such a narrow definition would forbid sattelites from correcting their orbits
11:00:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, physics question: Does a helicopter-like object that only apply upwards force (no sideways force) on an ideal planet with no wind and so on stay over the same spot on the ground?
11:00:59 <Vorpal> or would it drift sideways
11:01:58 <fizzie> Is your ideal planet rotating?-) (I'm not a physicist so I'm not going to try answering in any case.)
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11:04:29 <mailanmuoto> does the moon have satellites of its own?
11:04:58 <kmc> it's too bad that they can't implement the original plan of bringing Hubble back to earth in the Space Shuttle and putting it in a museum
11:05:00 <mailanmuoto> if so, do these satellites have satellites?
11:05:07 <fizzie> olsner: "2. a. Astron. The regularly repeated, typically elliptical course of a celestial object, satellite, spacecraft, etc., around a more massive body (as the sun, the earth, a star, or a planet) to which it is bound by gravity. Now also: one complete circuit made by an object around the orbited body." (OED)
11:05:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes it is
11:05:12 <kmc> this would be a waste of money, but it's still cool
11:05:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, what would happen if it wasn't rotating?
11:05:32 <mailanmuoto> ...were you already discussing this?
11:06:16 <olsner> the psychics in the other #esoteric warned us this topic was coming up
11:07:02 <Vorpal> <mailanmuoto> does the moon have satellites of its own? <-- maybe some debris or so? Nothing of importance though
11:07:09 <Vorpal> `welcome mailanmuoto
11:07:16 <Vorpal> HackEgo, ...?
11:07:18 <HackEgo> mailanmuoto: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
11:07:35 <Phantom_Hoover> <mailanmuoto> does the moon have satellites of its own?
11:07:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Man-made ones, I think.
11:07:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh? We placed satellites around it?
11:07:59 <kmc> it certainly has in the past
11:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure if there are any still there, but it's a lot harder to get an orbiting satellite to crash than to just leave it there so I assume they're still there.
11:08:51 <mailanmuoto> do you have a reference?
11:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Otherwise, the masses and distances involved make it too unstable to support large natural satellites.
11:09:11 <Phantom_Hoover> 3-body problem and all that.
11:09:29 <mailanmuoto> that's what we figured
11:09:37 <Vorpal> mailanmuoto, "we"?
11:09:44 <mailanmuoto> it's an editorial we
11:09:52 <Vorpal> uh?
11:10:11 <Vorpal> ah, googled that
11:10:13 <Vorpal> right
11:10:32 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: All the five Lunar Orbiter satellites at least have crashed down, don't know about later ones.
11:10:53 <fizzie> "The Lunar Orbiters were all eventually commanded to crash on the Moon before their attitude control fuel ran out so they would not present navigational or communications hazards to later Apollo flights."
11:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
11:11:04 <mailanmuoto> erm well by "masses and distances involved" are you referring to the fact the earth is not sufficiently bigger than the moon or what?
11:11:11 <fizzie> They haven't had that concern nowadays.
11:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Reconnaissance_Orbiter
11:11:30 <fizzie> Oh, right, LRO is obviously still there.
11:11:55 <mailanmuoto> you guys are great, thanks
11:11:58 <mailanmuoto> see ya
11:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> mailanmuoto, well the Moon is stable more or less because the Sun is way more massive than the Earth and far, far further away.
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11:12:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit.
11:12:09 <fizzie> In solar system timescales, though, you might not want to count all this blink-of-the-eye stuff.
11:14:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apollo11-LRO-March2012.jpg take that moon landing hoax people! (Of course that image is a fake too.)
11:19:59 <olsner> fizzie: just a bunch of pixels, holds no reality
11:22:28 <Phantom_Hoover> They just set that up later.
11:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The real moon landings were in 1936.
11:24:09 <itidus21> putting aside the hoax question, i assume it is still considered impossible by many for humans to go to the moon
11:26:45 <Vorpal> itidus21, ?
11:26:56 <itidus21> ok i will reword
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11:27:32 <itidus21> i assume they think it's a hoax because they don't think humans can walk on the moon
11:27:54 <itidus21> and that they still don't think humans can walk on the moon
11:28:52 <Vorpal> uh
11:28:53 <Vorpal> what
11:28:53 <itidus21> i assume the only reason humans went at all is because the automation was not possible
11:29:35 <itidus21> because being trapped on the moon theer is noone who can save you
11:29:52 <Vorpal> in the political climate at the time I'm not sure they would have preferred automation
11:30:04 <Vorpal> the space race and so on
11:35:36 <itidus21> its just strange, they did the whole thing only so they could say look what we did, and they managed to do it in such a way that a lot of people didn't believe they even did it
11:36:53 <nooga> russians sent few people to the orbit and they've never returned
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11:38:14 <spirity> itidus21: people just put together connections that don't exist.
11:38:19 <spirity> that's basically it.
11:53:09 <kmc> itidus21: the number of people who don't believe it is tiny
11:53:23 <kmc> it's a far out conspiracy theory which is widely mocked in mainstream US popular culture
11:53:40 <kmc> nooga?
11:53:59 <nortti> hmm. have you heard of flat earth society
11:54:10 <fizzie> They are mocked a lot, too.
11:54:17 <kmc> itidus21: i think your assumption is false too
11:54:31 <kmc> i don't think the conspiracy theorists consder a moon landing to be physically impossible
11:54:35 <kmc> not all of them
11:54:39 <kmc> i don't know why you are assuming that
11:54:39 <itidus21> cool
11:54:43 <Vorpal> isn't there some hollow earth conspiracy thing too?
11:54:47 <itidus21> well..
11:54:49 <kmc> but i don't understand why you assume all of the wrong things you do
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11:55:36 <itidus21> to me, it is infact stupid to send humans to the moon for the sheer bravado of it
11:55:58 <nooga> oh, i've met a guy who's totally convinced that the earth is hollow
11:56:03 <nooga> and same for the moon
11:56:26 <fizzie> Grumble grumble "Error using *: Inner matrix dimensions must agree. -- in [absurdly complicated expression involving several instances of *]" I suppose it would just *kill* you to, I don't know, underline the bad operands or something.
11:56:35 <Vorpal> nooga, what really?
11:56:41 <Vorpal> nooga, why? And how?
11:56:43 <itidus21> well, the reason they think things like this is a lack of evidence
11:56:51 <kmc> itidus21: no
11:56:53 <itidus21> since there is no pictures of the center of the earth
11:56:59 <kmc> no no no
11:57:00 <itidus21> or the center of the moon
11:57:00 <nooga> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judica-Cordiglia_brothers
11:57:04 <kmc> you do not understand anything
11:57:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, matlab?
11:57:35 <kmc> nooga: yeah those are not really more credible than the moon landing hoax people
11:57:39 <itidus21> so, soundnfury was saying pythagorus probably didn't exist
11:57:39 <kmc> though there's less evidence to the contrary as well
11:57:45 <kmc> but that doesn't make the conspiracy theory more credible
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11:57:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess you might want to copy out parts and try those separately? Doing a binary search on the expression basically
11:58:02 <itidus21> but to be fair people did say not so fast
11:58:07 <kmc> itidus21: people who believe crazy things typically hold onto their beliefs despite an abundance of evidence to the contrary
11:58:16 <kmc> <itidus21> well, the reason they think things like this is a lack of evidence
11:58:18 <kmc> no no no
11:58:31 <nooga> hollow earth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Earth
11:58:34 <kmc> no no no no no no no
11:58:51 <fizzie> Vorpal: The GUI desktop at least has (in debug mode) a tooltip which gives dimensions, so I could just point the mouse at them.
11:59:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, that works too
11:59:21 <fizzie> In this piece of code, everything is always a transpose of what I'd expect.
11:59:27 <Vorpal> ouch
11:59:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, what are you doing btw?
12:00:17 <kmc> itidus21: sometimes talking to you is physically painful
12:00:17 <fizzie> Sometimes it's A*B*C^T, and other times it's C*B^T*A^T and it takes slices the other way around, which is obviously the same thing, but not so clearly noticeable.
12:00:35 <fizzie> I'm trying to make sense out of this matrix deconvolution code we have.
12:00:41 <itidus21> kmc: i am merely lost in 2012.
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12:05:55 <Taneb> I like how the BBC website has said "MOJANG IS SUED! So's a bunch of small companies, like EA, Gameloft and Square Enix, but nobody cares about them"
12:08:05 <fizzie> Incidental pet peculiarity: Matlab ' operator does the conjugate transpose, while the .' operator does a regular transpose; for a real matrix it's of course the same thing, but I'm still tempted to use the uglier-looking .' for some unfathomable reason, even though A' is the idiomatic way of getting transpose of A if A is known to be real.
12:08:06 <Vorpal> Taneb, ?
12:08:09 <Vorpal> Taneb, when?
12:08:19 <Taneb> Pretty much just now
12:08:25 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18953828
12:08:34 <Vorpal> <kmc> itidus21: sometimes talking to you is physically painful <-- same for zzo
12:08:36 <fizzie> It's been a day or two already. Since the news, I mean, not sure about the BBC.
12:09:05 <Taneb> Yeah, BBC's quite slow sometimes, especially with tech
12:09:09 <Taneb> It's good for UK politics
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12:09:48 <Vorpal> sigh
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12:11:23 <Vorpal> <Taneb> I like how the BBC website has said "MOJANG IS SUED! So's a bunch of small companies, like EA, Gameloft and Square Enix, but nobody cares about them" <-- can't find that quote on the page you linked
12:11:32 <Taneb> I was paraphrasing
12:11:35 <Vorpal> ah
12:11:39 <nooga> uh
12:11:39 <Taneb> "Mojang is one of ten companies, including Electronic Arts, GameLoft and Square Enix, that have been named in the lawsuit."
12:11:44 <Vorpal> right
12:11:50 <nooga> what lawsuit
12:12:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Oh, re "everything is always a transpose", one of the involved matrices is square, which is even worse, since at least for the others it's obvious is they are used in a wrong way.
12:12:20 <fizzie> s/is they/if they/
12:12:37 <Taneb> Apparently, you can't confirm login details by communicating with a server if you have a SIM card plugged in
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12:14:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
12:15:37 <Vorpal> Taneb, huh
12:15:44 <Vorpal> stupid patents
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12:23:11 <nooga> Taneb: what?
12:23:24 <Taneb> I don't know either
12:23:35 <nooga> because i'm writing a mobile game at the moment
12:24:35 <Vorpal> patents...
12:25:02 <nortti> yeah.
12:25:16 <nortti> expecialy software patents
12:25:29 <Taneb> Just don't let anyone in East Texas buy it
12:26:25 <nooga> uh
12:26:33 <nooga> i hate this
12:27:59 <Taneb> Write to that guy who was in that election a few months ago
12:28:10 <fizzie> Write to Santa Claus.
12:28:20 <Taneb> WRITE TO TOM CRUISE
12:28:44 <fizzie> Tom Cruise says it's such an incredible feeling when you know you can help people.
12:28:50 <fizzie> Or something like that, anyway.
12:29:08 <Taneb> DON'T LET HIM GIVE YOU A PERSONALITY TEST, THOUGH
12:29:17 <Vorpal> nooga, don't sell it outside EU?
12:29:40 <nooga> ah
12:30:07 <nooga> it's about 'calling home' to verify the copy
12:30:41 <nooga> since my game is freemium
12:30:56 <nooga> 0 is the general amount of fuck that i give
12:31:08 <fizzie> Do you have in-app purchases? You know those are patented too.
12:31:26 <nooga> ghh
12:31:28 <Vorpal> doesn't google provide an API to verify against Google Play
12:31:28 <fizzie> Or did the Lodsys thing reach some sort of a conclusion yet?
12:31:32 <Vorpal> I seem to remember they do
12:31:33 <nooga> my lawyer will sort that out
12:31:52 <mroman> You got sued?
12:31:55 <Vorpal> nooga, what platform is your mobile game for?
12:32:00 <nooga> iOS
12:32:02 <Vorpal> and what sort of game is it?
12:32:14 <Vorpal> okay, scrap the second question, iOS is not interesting to me
12:32:17 <nooga> massively multiplayer puzzle
12:32:18 <nooga> ;p
12:32:40 <Vorpal> not in a thousand years will I buy an iOS device
12:33:10 <nortti> I could buy iPhone 2G just to install iDroid on it
12:33:37 <fizzie> Lodsys IIRC sued a huge pile of small iOS developers for using the Apple-provided in-app purchase API. I forget exactly if that got resolved, though.
12:33:46 <Vorpal> nortti, I would suggest that a dedicated Android product is better
12:34:31 <nortti> Vorpal: but with that I couldn't troll both sides iOs vs. Android battle
12:35:17 <Vorpal> nortti, XD
12:35:38 <fizzie> What number have they reached in iPhones now? Is there a 5?
12:37:28 <fizzie> Oh, just 4S.
12:39:30 <nooga> i don't even have an iphone
12:39:59 <nooga> i use HTC Desire HD ;d
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12:45:18 <Vorpal> so why is he making an iOS game...
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12:50:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: Perhaps that's where the money is.
12:50:13 <Vorpal> hm
12:53:03 <kmc> nooga: yeah, well, shachaf doesn't even have a television
12:53:25 <Vorpal> <nooga> i use HTC Desire HD ;d <Vorpal> so why is he making an iOS game...
12:59:02 <nooga> simple
12:59:09 <nooga> iOS users are more willing to pay
12:59:16 <fizzie> Ha, I guessed the right.
12:59:17 <nooga> for some useless crap
12:59:35 <nooga> that will help them to cheat and earn more points to buy useless crap
12:59:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: To add one point to the earlier CGA discussion, there's the cute trick with the composite TV output, where suitable pixel patterns produce colors when decoded by a NTSC TV. See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/KQ_CompVsRGB.png -- left side is the regular monitor view, right side is the TV view; and top row has the game in "composite mode", bottom row in "RGB mode".
13:00:25 <nooga> kmc: I don't have a TV
13:00:33 <nooga> TV is useless and annoying
13:00:41 <nortti> but then there are PAL TVs...
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13:02:03 <fizzie> And SECAM TVs, if you want to go that far.
13:02:18 <fizzie> I don't know if those are possible to misuse the same way. Maybe not.
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13:09:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, nice
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13:09:38 <Vorpal> nortti, how can you test it without an iOS device though?
13:09:42 <fizzie> Not that I have personally ever seen a CGA card hooked to a television.
13:09:47 <Vorpal> I mean emulators are all fine and so on
13:09:57 <Vorpal> but how is OpenGL performance in those?
13:09:58 <nortti> Vorpal: test what?
13:10:00 <Vorpal> nortti, the game
13:10:04 <Vorpal> that you are developing
13:10:11 <Vorpal> err nooga I meant
13:10:15 <Vorpal> misshighlight
13:10:31 <Vorpal> nooga, ^
13:10:40 <nooga> Vorpal: i've got an ipad
13:10:41 <fizzie> nortti: In case you didn't know, you're now developing an iOS game. Sorry about that.
13:10:42 <nooga> also
13:10:44 <Vorpal> nooga, ah okay
13:10:56 <nooga> all of my friends have iphone
13:11:03 <nooga> including the teammates
13:11:03 <Vorpal> I type "no<tab>", and I have it set to order by "spoke last"
13:11:10 <Vorpal> so one of you need to change nick
13:11:42 <nooga> and
13:12:21 <nooga> Vorpal: ios emulator is just a sandbox that shares running kernel with the host OS X
13:12:45 <Vorpal> unusual rain outside. Very very fine drops. But a lot of them. It is like if someone would be using a "fine fog" nozzle kind of thing
13:12:46 <nooga> so that the performance is near to native
13:13:03 <Vorpal> nooga, isn't iOS ARM and normal macs x86?
13:13:12 <nooga> so what?
13:13:19 <Vorpal> and unlike for android they don't run bytecode
13:13:23 <nooga> kernel is the same
13:13:24 <Vorpal> but native code
13:13:30 <Vorpal> nooga, sure, but binary is not?
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13:14:00 <kmc> ios emulator runs the compiler to produce native code
13:14:01 <nooga> you get different code for different targets
13:14:04 <kmc> iirc
13:14:25 <kmc> but android emulator just has an arm emulator
13:14:38 <kmc> emulator translator something whatever
13:14:42 <Vorpal> kmc, or x86. Remember there are Atom based Android devices
13:14:42 <nooga> but the kerner, shell and libs are the same on both targets
13:14:49 <kmc> right
13:14:50 <nooga> kernel
13:14:56 <Vorpal> in which case it can use kvm
13:14:56 <kmc> also the kerner
13:14:57 <fizzie> KERNAL.
13:14:59 <kmc> :D
13:15:10 <kmc> bbl
13:15:22 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway there are some issues with that approach, like if you have inline asm
13:15:40 <Vorpal> and even if not, there could be various differences between the platforms
13:15:51 <nooga> its apple
13:15:55 <nortti> KERNAL is pretty strange name for a OS
13:15:56 <nooga> it's
13:16:08 <Vorpal> nooga, and?
13:16:36 <fizzie> Here's some documentary text about the kernel: "Teh kernal si a VARY IMPORTANT part of teh computar and you have to be SUPA 733t to hax0r teh kernal it si vary hard and there are MANY GUNS PROTECTING THE KERNAL!! ITs not loke Kernal Clink tho he was stoopid Hogan gots away frum him all teh time THE TUNNEL IS UNDER TEH BED U IDIAT!!"
13:16:53 <fizzie> (It's from a rinkworks.com movie review of Hackers.)
13:17:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of site is that
13:17:54 <fizzie> A humour site.
13:17:57 <Vorpal> ah
13:18:00 <nortti> fizzie: dafug
13:18:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, I find it unreadable
13:18:15 <fizzie> nortti: http://www.rinkworks.com/badmovie/m/hackers.1995.shtml (The other reviews are not quite like that.)
13:18:59 <fizzie> I have used their fantasy name generator for Diablo 2 character names.
13:19:03 <nooga> Vorpal: and they don't give a f.. about hardware that they didn't make
13:19:09 <fizzie> And possibly for other character names too.
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13:19:31 <nooga> and they do only small set of devices with really good support and programming system
13:19:40 <fizzie> They also have that CGI adventure game thing at rinkworks, but I've never gotten into that.
13:20:17 <Vorpal> nooga, indeed, but there could still be subtle differences between the emulator and the hardware
13:20:18 <nooga> I'm not even sure if someone tried inline asm in an iphone app
13:20:23 <Vorpal> there probably are
13:20:26 <nooga> let me check
13:20:35 <nooga> how llvm will handle this
13:21:04 <Vorpal> nooga, I'm sure there are in some system headers
13:21:18 <Vorpal> after all the glibc headers have macros defined to asm sequences for some stuff
13:22:40 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway there are obviously some differences. Like multi touch not existing on the screen of the mac
13:22:54 <Vorpal> and there being no gyro in the mac (I guess?)
13:23:19 <nooga> oh, the emulator simulates that
13:23:35 <Vorpal> nooga, oh and don't forget another difference: the mac has a much stronger processor. Algorithms that run fine on the mac might run too slow to be usable on a real device
13:23:36 <nooga> it has some faux drivers that you can control
13:23:46 <Vorpal> right
13:23:56 <nooga> ummm
13:24:14 <nortti> Vorpal: well that depends on the mac
13:24:14 <nooga> sometimes i think that the ipad 3 is stronger than my mbp when it comes to graphics and multimedia
13:24:32 <Vorpal> nooga, sure, the point is that they don't match however
13:24:33 <nooga> also, it has this retina display which is really really hi-res
13:24:56 <Vorpal> and your macbook does not. So pixel graphics are going to be suboptimal on one of those
13:25:37 <spirity> a parallel extension of the C programming language that supports efficient access to a global address space on current distributed memory multiprocessors. It retains the "small language" character of C and supports careful engineering and optimization of programs by providing a simple, predictable cost model.
13:25:41 <Vorpal> nooga, anyway did inline asm work?
13:25:44 <spirity> I wasn't aware that C was a "small language"
13:26:07 <fizzie> spirity: Perhaps it's in contrast with, say, C++.
13:26:08 <Vorpal> spirity, compared to some other languages I guess it is
13:26:19 <fizzie> Which you could characterize as a hulking monster of a language.
13:26:31 <Vorpal> the standard library is much less complete than Haskell's for example
13:27:16 <nooga> Vorpal: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/238010/how-do-i-do-inline-assembly-on-the-iphone
13:27:30 <nooga> spirity: it's small
13:27:44 <Vorpal> nooga, right, __asm__ makes perfect sense in GCC context
13:27:50 <Vorpal> if you use -std=c99 or such
13:28:17 <nooga> uhum, and you use Objective-C
13:28:28 <Vorpal> well okay, whatever -std that has
13:28:46 <nooga> :)
13:29:07 <fizzie> Someone somewhere suggested that a future 64-bit ARM could have an optional 64-bits-wide instruction set, and that could be called "Leg mode".
13:29:10 <spirity> nooga: given all the weird standardization corner cases that come up I feel as though "small" is not the right word for C. Maybe small in core language features, but small in terms of minor (usually unnoticed) technical details.
13:29:24 <spirity> *but not small
13:29:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is going to be called Arch64 iirc
13:29:33 <olsner> fizzie: ooh, that might have been me
13:29:42 <Vorpal> fizzie, I mean, 64-bit ARM is already in the works
13:29:43 <olsner> unless I stole it from somewhere else
13:29:44 <fizzie> olsner: Very possible.
13:30:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: The architecture, sure, but I don't think they were planning to have 64-bit-wide opcodes in it, were they?
13:30:08 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh, right
13:30:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, 32 bit I think
13:30:19 <Vorpal> and no Thumb style mode
13:30:27 <Vorpal> (except for running legacy code)
13:30:59 <fizzie> Well, they could go for a thing with a Thumb, an Arm, and a Leg. And then a VLIW-style "Torso" mode, and some 8-bit bytecode thing called Pinky.
13:31:14 <soundnfury> spirity: you crazy? of course C is small
13:31:40 <Vorpal> soundnfury, not compared to asm
13:31:46 <soundnfury> it's physically possible to read N1256 (the C99 draft) and understand it
13:31:50 <soundnfury> Vorpal: depends which asm :p
13:31:58 <olsner> they should just bite the bullet and switch to a variable-length instruction encoding ... unless every instruction is equally probable, I think any fixed-size encoding will be worse than a variable-length one
13:32:25 <soundnfury> olsner: costs chip real estate, and makes things harder for the scheduler if there is one
13:32:26 <Vorpal> spirity, anyway what was that parallel extension? OpenMP?
13:32:31 <spirity> Split-C
13:32:36 <Vorpal> soundnfury, PIC12*
13:32:39 <Vorpal> ;)
13:33:16 <Vorpal> olsner, fixed size one simplifies pipeline design and so on
13:33:23 <Vorpal> and cache handling
13:33:28 <fizzie> olsner: Yeah, that's just "worse" if your only metric is "number of bits per instruction".
13:33:45 <Vorpal> on x86, you have to worry about instructions crossing cache line boundaries
13:33:46 <olsner> fizzie: yes, that was thinking only about program size
13:33:49 <nortti> PIC16 seems pretty good
13:34:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
13:35:32 <fizzie> Incidentally, what's NEON short for?
13:35:53 <fizzie> Maybe nothing.
13:35:58 <olsner> new extended on-chip new-stuff
13:36:12 <fizzie> They do spell it consistently all-uppercase.
13:36:20 -!- sebbu has joined.
13:36:52 <olsner> whatever it stands for, it'll be better than SSSSE7 or whatever the newest x86 stuff is
13:37:12 <soundnfury> Vorpal: PIC? Yeucccccch!
13:37:26 <Vorpal> soundnfury, :D
13:37:27 -!- variable has quit (Quit: I found 1 in /dev/zero).
13:37:31 <Vorpal> soundnfury, glad that you feel that way
13:37:37 <soundnfury> olsner: would SSSSE7 be I7 or E11?
13:37:38 <Vorpal> soundnfury, what about AVR?
13:37:42 <Vorpal> that isn't do bad
13:37:50 <soundnfury> Haven't used AVR actually
13:38:01 <Vorpal> apart from left/right shifts only are available in "shift one step" variants
13:38:06 <Vorpal> at least on the model I used
13:38:07 * soundnfury 's favourite chip is Z80
13:38:38 <Vorpal> never coded for that
13:38:45 <Vorpal> used it, sure, my calculator has one of those in it
13:38:48 <nortti> soundnfury: does it have stack that can grow withous limitations?
13:39:04 <AnotherTest> TI83 has a Z80 processor I think
13:39:05 <fizzie> olsner: I'm not sure if it has gone further than Supplemental Streaming SIMD Extensions 3 yet.
13:39:09 <soundnfury> fizzie: re NTSC (and PAL) luma-chroma interference, this effect was also able to be produced on the ZX Spectrum. My emulator (Spiffy) emulates this effect.
13:39:13 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, yes
13:39:18 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, 83+ at least
13:39:20 <Vorpal> which is what I have
13:39:25 <AnotherTest> Same here
13:39:27 <soundnfury> nortti: yes, because the stack is just in RAM
13:39:38 <fizzie> All the TI-(83-86) ones do.
13:39:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, uh, my desktop dues SSE4.2 or something iirc
13:39:53 <soundnfury> the Z80 does not have onboard memory (except for general purpose registers) - it's a CPU, not a microcontroller
13:40:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, but I mean in number of S's.
13:40:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is an SSSE?
13:40:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes. SSSE3.
13:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, what did the extra S stand for?
13:40:27 <nortti> soundnfury: I know. but for example 6502 restricted stack size to 256 bytes. can I load random values to SP with it?
13:40:36 <soundnfury> but it's often used as one by tying it to SRAM
13:40:36 <fizzie> Vorpal: Supplemental, like I just said.
13:40:48 <soundnfury> nortti: sure, SP can hold any 16-bit value
13:40:57 <soundnfury> even an odd number if you're crazy
13:41:03 <Vorpal> ah
13:41:12 <nortti> soundnfury: are there any new z80 processors produced?
13:41:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I don't think they are going for more "SSE" currently. What with AVX and so on
13:41:34 <Vorpal> AMD is going for further SSEs though?
13:41:43 <soundnfury> nortti: I'm not sure. But you can still get 'em from Farnell, the price for 1 is pennies
13:42:09 <nortti> soundnfury: they have the built in DRAM refresher?
13:42:34 <soundnfury> yes
13:42:38 <soundnfury> the R register
13:42:51 <Vorpal> soundnfury, that is a control register?
13:43:10 <soundnfury> DRAM refresh is performed in the 3rd and 4th T-states of the M1 cycle (opcode fetch)
13:43:11 <nortti> oh. well that sounds good. I might build computer around z80
13:43:21 <Vorpal> also is that price for one in bulk?
13:43:27 <Vorpal> can you even buy them separately?
13:43:36 <soundnfury> no, that's the price for one singly
13:43:41 <soundnfury> in bulk they'd be cheaper
13:44:05 <soundnfury> there also exist, btw, binary-compatible updated versions, the Z380 and eZ80
13:44:20 <soundnfury> but I know nothing about them except what it says on Wikipedia about them
13:44:21 <fizzie> I bought ten when visiting an electronics supply store once, just because. Haven't used them for anything.
13:44:28 <fizzie> The eZ80 is fancily kinda-sorta 24-bit.
13:45:45 <Vorpal> nice
13:45:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, how is that "kinda sorta"?
13:46:08 <soundnfury> Vorpal: the R register (8 bits) can be set with LD R,A. On every opcode fetch, while the instruction is being decoded, the Z80 pulls /MREQ and /RFSH low (but not /RD or /WR), places {I,R} on the address bus, and increments R (except that the high bit of R is not changed)
13:46:28 <soundnfury> (I is the 8-bit Interrupt Vector register)
13:46:58 <Vorpal> uh
13:47:09 <Vorpal> soundnfury, why the counter functionality?
13:47:36 <Vorpal> also do you mean this only happens while "LD R,A" is being decoded?
13:47:56 <Vorpal> hrrm
13:48:10 <Vorpal> soundnfury, also what stops this refreshing from going on when you are done with it?
13:48:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's incremented at every opcode fetch.
13:48:30 <Vorpal> oh right
13:48:44 <Vorpal> it was "the instruction" that confused me
13:49:03 <Vorpal> thought it meant that specific one and that seemed strange
13:49:18 <Vorpal> so right, I guess you need to refresh it line by line
13:49:20 <Vorpal> okay
13:49:32 <Vorpal> but that doesn't say what stops it from doing this refreshing
13:49:46 <Vorpal> or are you meant to refresh all the time?
13:49:52 <Vorpal> is the CPU that slow?
13:50:56 <Vorpal> at what sizes does DRAM become more cost effective than SRAM?
13:51:04 <fizzie> They run usually at single-digit megahertz speeds.
13:51:19 <soundnfury> Vorpal: a new Z80 is typically clocked at 20MHz these days
13:51:23 <Vorpal> soundnfury, hm
13:51:35 <fizzie> That's fast.
13:51:39 <Vorpal> soundnfury, so does that mean you have to continuously refresh the connected DRAM?
13:51:40 <soundnfury> when first designed, in '76, it was more likely to be 4MHz
13:51:40 <fizzie> The TI-86 one runs at six.
13:51:57 <Vorpal> soundnfury, because you didn't mention any flag that would turn off this refresh behaviour
13:52:09 <Vorpal> which would be preferred if you were using SRAM obviously
13:52:15 <soundnfury> Vorpal: there's nothing to turn it off
13:52:27 <Vorpal> okay, so it is refreshing all the time then
13:52:27 <Vorpal> huh
13:52:29 <soundnfury> but otoh you can just not connect /RFSH to your RAM
13:52:34 <Vorpal> right
13:52:36 <soundnfury> or make /RFSH inhibit /MREQ
13:53:03 <fizzie> People have used values of R as pseudorandomness source, even though it's obviously not very random. I think bef86 uses it for ?.
13:53:19 <fizzie> It's random-ish if you're not executing anything too predictable.
13:53:25 <Vorpal> and why is the upper bit untouched
13:53:30 <Vorpal> is the address bus only 15 bits?
13:53:34 <soundnfury> no
13:53:58 <Vorpal> soundnfury, then why is MSB untouched?
13:54:10 <Vorpal> oh wait, 7 bits
13:54:11 <soundnfury> but the assumption was that if people were using DRAM it would be in units that needed 7 bits to refresh
13:54:19 <Vorpal> huh
13:54:22 <soundnfury> for some reason
13:54:24 <Vorpal> okay
13:54:31 <soundnfury> Ask 1976 to explain it
13:55:31 <Vorpal> so Z80 is almost 40 years old then
13:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> You haven't heard of the Z80?
13:56:58 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure I have?
13:57:13 <Vorpal> I just didn't know exactly when it was first invented
13:57:29 <fizzie> "ZiLOG Application Notes are available describing how the Z80 CPU is interfaced with most popular dynamic RAM", to quote the manual. You could look at those.
13:58:10 <Vorpal> I have an x86 question. During boot, during BIOS/EFI, the RAM modules have not yet been started right? That is one of the things that BIOS/EFI does. So what does those early stages of BIOS/EFI use for memory?
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13:58:55 <fizzie> It's possible they made the top bit not be affected by the counter (but stay as whatever you loaded to it) so that you'd have a useful toggleable one-bit value available on the address bus at refresh time. Not that I know what it could be useful for.
13:59:48 <Vorpal> is there a few KB of ram on the north bridge or such?
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14:00:38 <Vorpal> and if yes, is that RAM available to the OS after the boot?
14:01:24 <fizzie> And possibly the very earliest instructions use registers only? Not that I've disassembled any BIOSi.
14:01:31 <Vorpal> hm
14:01:34 <Vorpal> I guess that could work
14:01:47 <Vorpal> but you are in 16-bit real mode then, not a lot of registers around
14:02:07 <Vorpal> you need to load memory configuration from CMOS and what not
14:02:51 <fizzie> It could just as well have some memory on the chipset, the chipset initialization is of course chipset-specific in any case.
14:03:32 <oerjan> <pikhq_> Vorpal: All the animals with appendages are bilaterians. <-- um starfish have 5 appendages.
14:04:08 <fizzie> I do recall something somewhere about not using subroutine calls in early BIOS code because there's no RAM available to point the stack at.
14:04:18 <oerjan> and fivefold symmetry
14:04:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
14:04:58 <fizzie> You could look at coreboot code, I suppose. :p
14:05:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm is the BIOS a nor-flash then so that it is byte addressable?
14:05:11 <Vorpal> I guess it must be
14:05:56 <oerjan> mind you they're not exactly known for fast movement
14:05:57 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
14:06:37 <fizzie> oerjan: So what's the current record for the starfish 100-metre run these days?
14:06:53 <oerjan> i haven't kept track, sorry
14:07:21 <fizzie> "Most starfish cannot move quickly. However, some burrowing species from the genera Astropecten and Luidia are capable of rapid, creeping motion, "gliding" across the ocean floor[citation needed], which results from their pointed tubefeet adapted specially for excavating patches of sand.[citation needed]"
14:07:28 <fizzie> That's quite some citation neededness.
14:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> > 100/0.15
14:07:40 <lambdabot> 666.6666666666667
14:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So that's... a bit over eleven hours.
14:08:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Using the speed from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_speed_of_a_starfish
14:08:17 <Vorpal> what an evil speed
14:08:32 <Vorpal> err, time
14:09:40 <Vorpal> bbl
14:09:41 <fizzie> speed of starfish: "Input interpretation: [ sea stars | maximum speed on land ]"
14:09:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, lol
14:09:50 <Vorpal> anyway bbl
14:09:57 <fizzie> Claims it's just 0.96 cm/min.
14:09:59 <fizzie> But that's on land.
14:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Sea stars??? who calls them sea stars
14:10:16 <fizzie> W|A does.
14:10:42 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so wait are we talking about the land or water 100m.
14:10:53 <fizzie> "100 metres / speed of starfish" gives... uh, 0.01292 seconds. Because this time it interpreted it as "StarAD | average orbit velocity".
14:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Star...AD?
14:11:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, a satellite.
14:11:34 <AnotherTest> Does wiki.answers.com answer the question why "Computer Science" is under technology rather than under "Science"?
14:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it's not a science?
14:12:00 <AnotherTest> Then why does it say "Computer Science"
14:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it has a misleading name.
14:12:19 <fizzie> That's the weirdest. If I just use "speed of starfish", it'll go "Assuming "starfish" is a species specification | Use as a spacecraft instead", but in the "100 metres /" version it goes for the spacecraft and doesn't give the disambiguation option.
14:12:37 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
14:12:42 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:12:43 <olsner> "Use as a spacecraft instead" should be available as an option more often
14:12:53 <fizzie> "100 metres / sea stars maximum speed on land" does produce a result of 170 hours.
14:12:55 <olsner> I mean, in general
14:13:32 <Phantom_Hoover> imagine, if you will, a world in which every object has a dual function as a spacecraft
14:13:33 <fizzie> "100 metres / sea stars maximum speed in sea" produces 5.4*10^-8 %h (mass percent hours).
14:13:43 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: indeed!
14:14:06 <olsner> for example, the coffee brewer power button would have off/on/spacecraft instead of just off/on
14:14:16 <oerjan> fizzie: try adding "species" somewhere?
14:14:19 <olsner> or maybe spacecraft/off/on
14:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> if one felt like going for a ride around mars over breakfast one need look no further than one's toaster
14:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> also one's kettle obviously
14:14:40 <olsner> but getting coffee *and* space travel at the same time seems pretty useful
14:14:47 <fizzie> oerjan: I already got it with the "sea stars maximum speed on land" thing.
14:14:59 <oerjan> fizzie: well they're sea creatures, duh
14:15:16 <oerjan> (even if they can presumably survive for a while out of it)
14:15:22 <Phantom_Hoover> you wouldn't have to pretend pencils are rocket ships, they actually would be!
14:15:37 <Phantom_Hoover> (please tell me i'm not the only one who pretends pencils are rocket ships)
14:15:38 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, as I mentioned, in sea the 100-metre float happens to take 5.4*10^-8 mass percent hours.
14:15:50 <oerjan> O KAY
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14:15:59 <spirity> are spacecrafts also equipped with the spacecraft mode?
14:16:05 <spirity> this might be an important feature for them to have.
14:16:08 <fizzie> oerjan: The input interpretation for that is (100 metres / [sea stars | maximum speed on land]) * [elements | ocean abundance].
14:16:43 <fizzie> Ah, it's "maximum speed in the water" that it wants.
14:17:02 <fizzie> Result: (insufficient data available). Grr.
14:17:07 <oerjan> darn
14:17:10 <fizzie> What sort of singularity is this, anyway.
14:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> truly this is the future of computation
14:17:13 <oerjan> INSUFFICIENT SCIENCE
14:17:52 <quintopia> i agree with oerjan
14:18:02 <quintopia> (on everything ever)
14:18:51 <Phantom_Hoover> do you agree with oerjan that quintopia is stupid and bad and smel sfuny
14:19:20 <quintopia> oerjan: is that what you truly believe?
14:19:31 <olsner> spirity: no, but spacecraft must have coffee making functionality
14:19:39 <spirity> I agree.
14:19:45 <oerjan> of course not, i have _no_ opinion on your smell whatsoever
14:20:07 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously, as oerjan has no nose
14:20:09 <quintopia> oh okay
14:20:16 <quintopia> then yes i agree with oerjan :P
14:20:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's Gregor who has no nose. pay attention.
14:21:16 <oerjan> what i don't have is a quintopia smell sample
14:21:21 <quintopia> he has a nose silly. what do you think holds up his AR glasses?
14:21:25 <Vorpal> <fizzie> "100 metres / sea stars maximum speed in sea" produces 5.4*10^-8 %h (mass percent hours). <-- wtf is "mass percent hour"?
14:21:29 <spirity> insufficient science.
14:21:30 * Phantom_Hoover realises that a google image search of Gregor will not in fact result in images of Gregor
14:21:36 <oerjan> what's AR?
14:21:43 <quintopia> augmented reality
14:21:54 <quintopia> they arent really that
14:21:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (http://www.aiwaz.net/uploads/gallery/gregor-baci-1292-mid.jpg is the second hit FWIW)
14:22:02 <quintopia> but they could be! someday!
14:22:06 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: try adding "richards" hth
14:22:08 <spirity> Phantom_Hoover: have you tried Roger G? I'm almost certain this is his alternate alias.
14:22:18 <quintopia> indeed
14:22:21 <oerjan> but beware of the foot
14:22:26 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> (please tell me i'm not the only one who pretends pencils are rocket ships) <-- I don't pretend that, maybe other people do though, who knows
14:22:35 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.cs.purdue.edu/people/images/graduate_students/gkrichar.jpg
14:22:41 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, NOTE THE NOSE
14:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> now, if Gregor has a nose it stands to reason you do not
14:22:56 <quintopia> oerjan has nosagnosia
14:23:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: obviously photoshopped, you can tell by the pixels
14:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i think not, my nociceptors are highly reliable
14:23:33 <oerjan> oh.
14:23:45 <quintopia> what do pain sensors have to do with noses?
14:23:57 * oerjan swats quintopia -----###
14:24:01 <oerjan> DON'T RUIN THE JOKE
14:24:12 <quintopia> i didnt. it was Phantom_Hoover
14:24:25 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i think not, my nociceptors are highly reliable <-- your what?
14:24:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know, but the unit conversions table says 5.4e-8 %h is the same as 1.937 microseconds, or 1.937e-6 megajoules per megavolt ampere, or 1.937e-6 megaohm microfahrads, or 1.937 kilograms per meter second megapascal. If that helps.
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14:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover> nociceptors detect noces you idiots
14:24:45 <oerjan> oh noce
14:24:47 <Vorpal> right
14:24:53 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so it doesn't work on noses then
14:25:10 <quintopia> noce feratu
14:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> they're homophone-insensitive
14:25:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is one fast starfish then
14:25:27 <Vorpal> 1.937 µs to move 100 meters?
14:25:28 <Vorpal> wow
14:25:30 <Vorpal> ;P
14:26:06 <fizzie> Yes, though I often use kilograms per meter second megapascals when talking about seconds, it feels more natural that way.
14:26:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway those are some crazy units in general, apart from the microseconds
14:26:28 <Vorpal> hm what is the definition of pascal?
14:26:28 <oerjan> quintopia: now i'm imagining a nose with fangs
14:26:41 <oerjan> and glasses, for some reason
14:26:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, kg/m^2
14:26:45 <Vorpal> aaah
14:26:52 <Vorpal> well that explains how it works then
14:27:04 <Vorpal> they just cancel each other
14:27:13 <soundnfury> `frink attoparsec / nanofortnight
14:27:16 <quintopia> actually arent nerve endings solely responsible for nociception?
14:27:24 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: N/m^2. Or kg/(m*s^2).
14:27:25 <quintopia> they can do lots of other stuff too
14:27:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm not sure how you get from 5.4e-8 %h to 1.937 microseconds though
14:27:27 <HackEgo> 25.509900639101595185 m s^-1 (velocity)
14:27:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you know
14:27:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh dammit.
14:27:50 * Phantom_Hoover physics seppuku
14:28:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, where did the "mass" bit of "mass percent hour" go btw?
14:28:14 <Vorpal> I don't see it in the unit
14:28:19 <fizzie> Vorpal: I suppose "mass percent" is maybe dimensionless.
14:28:24 <fizzie> Since it's just, you know, a percentage.
14:28:33 <Vorpal> hm right
14:28:35 <fizzie> So "mass percent hours" is still time.
14:28:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure it is.
14:28:39 <fizzie> Just a nonsensical time.
14:28:43 <Vorpal> well then that is easy enough to get to seconds
14:28:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Or wait yes it is.
14:28:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, so a percent hour is 1/100 of an hour
14:29:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Still, it could be a constant factor.
14:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, what Vorpal said.
14:29:42 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I agree with "mass percent" being dimensionless though
14:30:01 <Vorpal> shouldn't there be N involved somehow?
14:30:09 <fizzie> If you start with "mass percent hours" and end up with "seconds", "mass percent" can't really be anything else than 1.
14:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It's mass/mass, so no.
14:30:20 <Vorpal> ah okay
14:30:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, was microseconds though
14:30:43 <fizzie> That's still time.
14:30:52 <Vorpal> right
14:31:20 <fizzie> Pressing "details" reveals that it's doing (100 m)/(5.8e-4 km/h)*(3.1e-10 %).
14:31:23 <nortti> #quit
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14:31:55 <Vorpal> You know what I hated most about physics and chemistry in high school? The unit conversions.
14:32:04 <fizzie> 3.1e-10% being the median abundance of different chemical elements in the ocean, based on 110 values.
14:32:14 <fizzie> W|A is so creative.
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14:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, what unit conversions?
14:33:09 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, kg or mg or to g to make a certain formula work, values given in minutes having to be turned into seconds
14:33:10 <Vorpal> and so on
14:33:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh right.
14:33:38 <fizzie> If someone added "in sea" to a query, *my* first reaction wouldn't have been to go fetch a table of chemical element abundance, and then take the median of all 110 entries.
14:33:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I mostly only did that in chemistry; physics only really does km/m.
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14:34:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, speaking of chemistry: mole. Don't like that one bit
14:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Moles are easy!
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14:34:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, median? Not average?
14:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> They're docile and sweet.
14:34:38 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right, what do you call the unit in English
14:34:41 <Vorpal> "mol" in Swedish
14:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Moles.
14:34:45 <Vorpal> thought you added an e
14:34:45 <Vorpal> right
14:34:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, so what I said then
14:34:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The unit is still mol.
14:35:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Median is *an* average, if you ask some people. But median, not the mean, yes.
14:35:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, right, but the function to compute the mean is often called "avg" or such in software
14:35:57 <nooga> 0908 0703
14:35:57 <Vorpal> I think my calculator does that too
14:36:13 <Vorpal> ah, no it doesn't
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14:37:07 <Vorpal> btw, why is it that computer based calculators are inferior do using a TI-83+ even when you want to use the value on the computer. Like if I'm chatting in IRC and need to calculate something, I'd much rather use my graph calculator than run a calculator program on the computer
14:37:22 <Vorpal> even if I have to retype the values rather than copy them
14:37:22 <nortti> why?
14:37:33 <Vorpal> I don't know
14:37:44 <Vorpal> I feel that computer based calculator programs are clunkier
14:37:51 <Vorpal> but why that is, I don't know
14:37:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd rather use a CAS TbH, but calculators are much more ergonomic.
14:38:08 <Jafet> Only the ultimate nerd works on calculator programs
14:38:12 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, sure I'd use a CAS if the problem is complex enough
14:38:14 <nortti> I rather use dc than my early nineties scientific calculator that can compute tanget of 90 degrees
14:38:23 <Vorpal> Jafet, I written a few programs in TI-BASIC
14:38:23 <Jafet> And not HCI nerds
14:38:36 <Jafet> So
14:38:52 <fizzie> I usually just run a quick bc, and feel ashamed I didn't use dc like a real man would have.
14:39:00 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, so I'm guessing you've never used dc for... anything beyond basic arithmetic?
14:39:11 <nortti> Jafet: no. ultimate nerds run unix on their calculators
14:39:14 <Vorpal> nortti, I once learned dc and wrote an increadibly complex bit of one-liner in it. Then I came back a few weeks later and went "wtf"
14:39:27 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: why do you think so?
14:39:48 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, um let's see: no trig, no logs.
14:40:12 <Jafet> I use mathematica, it's comparable to eating caviar with a toothpick
14:40:20 <Vorpal> yeah using a TI-83+ is just easier than messing around with something like the gnome calculator or what not
14:40:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I used Mathematica but then I couldn't get the keygen to work
14:40:48 <fizzie> I actually use Octave quite asily, too. I don't know what the equivalent analogue would be.
14:40:53 <Jafet> Gnome is what happens when HCI nerds decide to screw everything and troll their users
14:40:54 <fizzie> s/as/eas/
14:40:56 <Jafet> It doesn't count
14:41:10 <Vorpal> I have mathematica installed. I use it when my TI-83+ can't do the job
14:41:25 <Vorpal> Jafet, well the same thing applies to the windows calculator
14:41:30 <fizzie> I go to Octave when bc can't do the job. :p
14:41:32 <Vorpal> or the KDE 3 one
14:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> dc is my favourite UNIX esolang.
14:41:44 <Phantom_Hoover> (m4 is my second-favourite.)
14:41:45 <Jafet> Yes, they troll users by imitating Windows
14:41:50 <spirity> I use frink, or like.. ghci
14:41:53 <fizzie> Or when it involved a small amount of something programmatic. bc's syntax for that is quite horrible.
14:41:55 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: not sed?
14:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> No, although I don't really know sed.
14:42:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, bc /has/ syntax for that?
14:42:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, m4 is terrible
14:42:32 <Vorpal> dc is also kind of terribke
14:42:35 <Vorpal> terrible*
14:42:37 <spirity> my knowledge of perl prevents me from ever learning sed beyond its s command.
14:42:40 <nortti> isn't bc just compiler that compiles code to dc?
14:42:44 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can define functions, and have for/while loops.
14:42:49 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, it was.
14:42:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, heh
14:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It isn't any more.
14:43:38 <fizzie> Granted, Octave/Matlab "REPL" is pretty horrible too, especially when it comes to defining functions on the fly.
14:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> According to WP these days dc tends to use the bc libraries.
14:43:50 <Jafet> Isn't GNU dc turing complete?
14:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
14:43:59 <Vorpal> hm is there a TI-83+ emulator for Android. That would be kind of neat. Or at least a calculator with similar functionality
14:44:01 <Jafet> Knowing GNU, it has to be
14:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> As is GNU m4.
14:44:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And indeed normal m4 AFAIK.
14:44:17 <Jafet> I'm surprised find isn't turing complete yet
14:44:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a TI-8x (it does most of them) emulator installed on the N900. Haven't used it much, though.
14:44:24 <Jafet> That would actually be useful for me
14:44:46 <spirity> I find find to be strangely limited.
14:44:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe you could do something with, like, recursive symlinks?
14:44:47 <Vorpal> though my calculator's keypad is about the same size as the entire screen on my phone
14:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> (Are recursive simlinks a thing, I forget)
14:44:57 <spirity> I can't search for files with a given mime type easily, for example.
14:44:59 <Vorpal> so the exact same button layout isn't going to work
14:45:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, on that small screen, can't be easy to use
14:45:13 <spirity> I have to plug in a custom script via -exec that runs xdg-mime or something like that.
14:45:22 <Jafet> The symlinks are static
14:45:38 <Jafet> I could -delete them with -prune maybe
14:45:50 <fizzie> It's called "AlmostTI", and it does TI-85, -86, -82, -83, -83+, -73 and -83+SE. There's also buttons for -84+ and -84+SE, but those are grayed out.
14:45:51 <Jafet> For control flow
14:46:02 <coppro> ugh
14:46:05 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, there's the stylus.
14:46:07 <coppro> I should never miss two weeks of class again
14:46:14 * coppro will do it anyway because he's stupid
14:46:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, still, that is quite a low res screen iirc?
14:46:33 <Vorpal> if you want to see the entire calculator on the screen
14:46:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: 800x480, it's perfectly adequate for that.
14:46:59 <fizzie> You can see individual pixels of the screen, and read the keys.
14:47:05 <Vorpal> heh
14:47:29 <fizzie> It's also apparently not too bad with just my usual fingernail-poking strategy without the stylus.
14:47:52 <Vorpal> unless someone knows a good graphing calculator for Android, maybe I'll make one myself
14:48:00 <Vorpal> can't be too hard, surely
14:48:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the skin in the thing is a render, or just a retouched photo. It looks a bit too clean to be exactly real.
14:48:45 <Vorpal> heh
14:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> 2 weeks later: <Vorpal> IT'S ON FIRE THIS IS VERY HARD
14:48:57 <fizzie> I suppose it could even be some vectors modeled after a photo.
14:49:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh come on, it is not hard, just extensive
14:49:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, I don't plan to implement TI-BASIC
14:49:37 <fizzie> Hey, there's a program called "FOO" in my emulated TI-86.
14:49:47 <Vorpal> you wrote it?
14:49:53 <fizzie> I must have.
14:50:02 <Vorpal> what does it do?
14:50:11 <fizzie> It has just "Lbl ABCDEFGH" and "Goto ABCDEFGH", in that order, in it.
14:50:18 <fizzie> I'm sorta baffled as to the purpose of it.
14:50:28 <Vorpal> infinite loop then?
14:50:37 <fizzie> Sure.
14:50:55 <fizzie> I ran it before looking at it, and spent a minute watching the "working" indicator go.
14:51:07 <fizzie> Maybe that was the purpose, to confuse myself a year later.
14:51:33 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm one issue though... what parser generators are there for java?
14:51:53 <fizzie> I've tried out a couple, though I've forgotten the names.
14:51:55 <Vorpal> flex style ones I mean
14:51:58 <fizzie> There are a whole lot, of course.
14:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> ah yes i will use my extensive knowledge both of parser generators and java to answer
14:52:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, any good ones
14:52:38 <Vorpal> anyway I need to leave, food is ready
14:53:11 <fizzie> There's that antlr thing, the javacc one, and sablecc.
14:53:15 <fizzie> Those I remember offhand.
14:53:21 <fizzie> But there are very many.
14:53:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't forget sarlacc.
14:53:28 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That's the pits.
14:54:08 <fizzie> Our compiler course used one of the ones that have two C's in the name.
14:54:55 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, JavaCC is quite lex/yacc-inspired when it comes to syntax, though it's an old and not-fancy-at-all.
14:55:50 <spirity> the only truly powerful parser is handrolled C code. :>
14:56:07 <fizzie> Oh, and then there's Coco/R.
14:56:13 <fizzie> That one was quite multi-language.
14:56:42 <nortti> spirity: well it isn't that fun to write. especialy if you're making a c compiler
14:56:54 <spirity> you don't know what fun is.
14:57:28 <soundnfury> of course, to write an Intercal compiler you'd need yacccc (yet another compiler compiler compiler compiler)
14:57:50 <fizzie> SableCC (IIRC) produces typed AST classes and tree-walker base classes for your grammar automatically, which can be a good thing if you're "into" that kinda thing.
14:57:51 <nortti> spirity: I have done that. it isn't fun but it was easier than trying to figure out yacc and lex
14:58:06 <fizzie> JavaCC just has yaccy actions, and I think some sort of separate AST thing that's purely optional.
14:59:05 <fizzie> (I'm sure there's also something very modern and fancy available. All these things existed already years ago.)
14:59:08 <soundnfury> nortti: I'd have to agree with you there
14:59:51 <soundnfury> while parser generators are a great idea, yacc is fugly
15:00:22 <fizzie> Even the yacc-inspired Java offerings aren't perhaps so... historical.
15:00:30 <soundnfury> and once you've handrolled a few parsers, it becomes ingrained enough that it's easy to do
15:01:11 <soundnfury> plus you learn to design languages that are trivial to parse ;)
15:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, BtW based on the fact that that lecturer you mentioned earlier works at Cambridge I assume you attend there.
15:03:17 <nortti> speaking of which I love writing forth and lisp parsers
15:05:51 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: attended, yes
15:06:04 <soundnfury> just graduated this summer :)
15:06:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Which college?
15:06:12 <soundnfury> Churchill
15:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, that's the one I applied to.
15:06:54 <soundnfury> Heh. I didn't.
15:07:00 * soundnfury applied to Trinity and got pooled
15:07:14 <soundnfury> but I'm glad I did, because Churchill is *awesome* ;)
15:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> My entire reason for going was that it's next to the maths campus.
15:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a friend who applied to St John's for the same reason, not realising that it's the back garden that's next to the maths campus.
15:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> And also that everyone hates St John's apparently.
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15:11:35 <soundnfury> yes, everyone does hate St John's
15:11:38 <soundnfury> I'm not sure why
15:11:40 <soundnfury> we just do
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15:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> The closest I was able to get to an explanation was that they're stuck-up, which my friend said wasn't unjustified based on what he saw.
15:14:24 <soundnfury> tru dat
15:17:21 <Phantom_Hoover> oh my god there's now a hampture livestrea,
15:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> *m
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15:38:20 <Vorpal> <spirity> the only truly powerful parser is handrolled C code. :> <-- need java in this case though
15:39:09 <Vorpal> <fizzie> SableCC (IIRC) produces typed AST classes and tree-walker base classes for your grammar automatically, which can be a good thing if you're "into" that kinda thing. <-- might be useful, probably not so much for my use case
15:39:50 <Vorpal> anyway I'm only going for lex, not yacc
15:39:57 <Vorpal> I don't plan on compiling the result
15:40:16 <Vorpal> or hm
15:40:23 <Vorpal> okay maybe yacc too
15:41:22 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "hampture"?
15:41:33 <Vorpal> wtf is that
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15:51:31 <itidus21> insight into my ignorant mind, reads "wtf is X", considers replying "the question is, what isn't X?"
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15:52:22 <itidus21> spends the extra time to consider how it is much easier to ask for a member than a set
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16:12:43 <mroman> puh. It took me 30 minutes to figure out how a while loop in my own language works o_O
16:12:52 <soundnfury> which language is this
16:13:07 <soundnfury> it took me 3 hours to write a while loop in mine (Eniuq)
16:14:14 <mroman> ri{0\\/1.-}{1.-}w!vv reads an integer n and produces n-1 zeroes.
16:16:24 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burlesque#Example_programs
16:16:27 <mroman> @language
16:16:27 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
16:18:19 <soundnfury> In Eniuq that's impossible. But you can read an integer n and produce n capital Is:
16:18:21 <soundnfury> ?1-"I~1-~84*3+f!1+4*5d3**+84*3+Dk84*3+"48*2+D48*2+O`Oo
16:18:21 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
16:18:42 <soundnfury> although this program fails if you pass 0 or 1 as the integer
16:18:57 <soundnfury> (you get about 2³² Is instead)
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16:20:24 <mroman> o_O
16:21:28 <mroman> What do you mean by impossible?
16:22:07 <mroman> If I pass a zero to mine it never terminates :)
16:22:16 <mroman> because everything except 0 is true
16:22:18 <mroman> so...
16:22:41 <mroman> Unless GHCs Int wraps around sometime it never terminates.
16:23:05 <soundnfury> mroman: it's impossible to output the character 0 in Eniuq
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16:24:06 <soundnfury> you can't output anything that's an operator, which is any of 0123456789+-*/&|^!?~dDfkKoO
16:25:03 <oerjan> the only language that becomes less powerful the more operators you add
16:25:25 <soundnfury> yup
16:26:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, project to create a self-contained underwater hamster enclosure.
16:29:23 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ... what about oxygen?
16:29:40 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also is this a reference to Rapture from Bioshock then?
16:29:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Erm, 'self-contained' means the enclosure itself is underwater.
16:29:51 <Vorpal> well es
16:29:52 <Vorpal> yes*
16:29:54 <mroman> hm.
16:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Air, water and food are all supplied from outside.
16:30:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, but you need oxygen for the hamster in it
16:30:03 <Vorpal> ah
16:30:04 <Vorpal> okay
16:30:05 <Vorpal> boring
16:30:10 <Vorpal> I want a biosphere for it
16:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Well he did have very good results growing plants in it, to the extent he had to take it out of the water to clear the massive overgrowth.
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16:30:53 <Vorpal> hm
16:31:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Self-sufficient oxygen production is impractical, though.
16:32:09 <Vorpal> true
16:33:24 <soundnfury> no it isn't
16:33:32 <soundnfury> you're surrounded by seawater
16:34:15 <olsner> http://www.savagechickens.com/2011/02/tree-astronaut-to-the-rescue.html
16:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, hardly self-sufficient.
16:34:33 <soundnfury> the only trouble is, it's salty, so when you try to electrolyse it you'll get loads of poisonous poisonous chlorine
16:34:52 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: the hamsters run in wheels to power the electrolysis, /obviously/ ;)
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17:26:29 <Taneb> Hello
17:26:34 <oerjan> hi
17:35:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, um. ANTLR is recursive decent?
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17:35:57 <Vorpal> oh well
17:36:49 <fizzie> JavaCC might be too.
17:36:55 <fizzie> Not sure how much it matters.
17:37:01 <fizzie> Just stick to LL(1) grammars or something.
17:38:08 <Gregor> ... what's wrong with recursive descent?
17:38:33 <oerjan> smells of evilution
17:39:31 <fizzie> Gregor: You can't write left-recursive rules, I guess, even if those might feel natural to you.
17:40:38 <Gregor> fizzie: Direct left-recursion (A=Ab) is a trivial optimization for a half-decent parser generator, and more complicated left recursion is basically nonexistent.
17:41:14 <Taneb> It occurs to me that I've only ever been in one Ikea
17:41:30 <Gregor> Taneb: Beat me, I've never been in an IKEA.
17:42:27 <fizzie> Gregor: Alternatively/additionally, you might have e.g. religious reasons for wanting a LALR parser.
17:42:35 <fizzie> I don't think I've been in more than two.
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17:43:28 <fizzie> Possibly just one.
17:44:11 <fizzie> There are only five in Finland, and three of the five are somewhere elsewhere.
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17:44:34 <Gregor> There is exactly one reason to go to IKEA: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/10193197/
17:44:35 <Taneb> There are 10 in the UK, and those 10 represent about 18% of furniture purchases
17:45:03 <Taneb> Gregor, you mean other than to steal the pencils?
17:45:39 <fizzie> There's an IKEA right across the border from Tornio (Tornio/Haparanda are Finnish/Swedish towns adjecent across a river, and they form basically one town in practice) and I'm given to understand that the Finnish locals visit it quite often.
17:45:55 <fizzie> Also I understand many people go to IKEA for the meatballs.
17:46:07 <Gregor> fizzie: Err, don't Finnland and Sweden have different currency?
17:46:27 <fizzie> Gregor: Sure. How so?
17:46:38 <Gregor> Isn't it… kinda complicated to hop over the river to eat some meatballs and pay for them with a currency you don't have?
17:46:39 <fizzie> Gregor: (It's also Finland.)
17:46:45 <Gregor> Tpyo >_>
17:47:06 <fizzie> I assume if you live in Tornio/Haparanda, you quite often have both currencies handy. Anyway, you can pay with plastic.
17:47:19 <Gregor> Ohyeah, I suppose it's 2012, innit.
17:47:33 <Taneb> It feels weird, being in the Future and all
17:47:37 <Gregor> Yuh.
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17:48:13 <fizzie> "Today the two towns are closely interconnected economically and socially; they constitute a transborder conurbation marketed as "EuroCity". Since Sweden and Finland are in different time zones, Haparanda is one hour behind Tornio. This allows a unique spectacle on New Years Eve, when people can welcome in the new year twice. Since 2005 the cities have rebranded themselves as ...
17:48:20 <fizzie> ... "Haparanda-Tornio" in Sweden, and "Tornio-Haparanda" in Finland."
17:48:32 <fizzie> I don't know if that even means that the establishments on Sweden's side actually accept euros.
17:48:32 <olsner> fizzie: are you from tornio?
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17:48:45 <fizzie> olsner: No, I've just heard about it.
17:48:52 <fizzie> Well, and driven through it.
17:48:53 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Ohyeah, I suppose it's 2012, innit. <-- yeah, though looking at the cards in US you wouldn't believe it was
17:49:04 <Vorpal> come on, you don't have chips in your cards widely yet
17:49:07 <Gregor> Neh neh neh we Europeans are so in the future
17:49:08 <Vorpal> you are so backwards
17:49:31 <Vorpal> Gregor, no we are not in the future, we are in the present. It is YOU guys who are in the past.
17:49:44 <Taneb> We're so far in the future British people have started winning the Tour de France
17:50:13 <mroman> huh.
17:50:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, has that ever happened?
17:50:19 <olsner> Taneb: but not yet so far into the future that you've solved the two faucets problem
17:50:25 <Taneb> Vorpal, yeah, yesterday
17:50:37 <fizzie> Oh, did it end already?
17:50:39 <olsner> *far out of the past
17:50:47 <fizzie> I was wondering if that Paris thing was in fact the final thing.
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17:50:57 <fizzie> I had sort of a vague notion that one end of the route was in Paris.
17:51:07 <Taneb> Yeah, they got there yesterday?
17:51:14 <fizzie> There were three TV channels providing the same live coverage of the Tour yesterday.
17:51:22 <fizzie> I guess Belgians are interested about it too.
17:51:25 <itidus21> the good news is that a quickly changing society won't stagnate very long
17:52:16 <fizzie> (Also "transborder conurbation" sounds funny.)
17:53:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think the word "conurbation" sounds funny by itself
17:53:51 <Taneb> There's at place on the Dutch-Belgian border that's weird
17:54:21 <fizzie> Gregor: The Finnish website of the (Swedish) IKEA in Haparanda confirms that you can pay with both Swedish paper money as well as euros (though banknotes only, no coins; you get the change back in SEK), in addition to cards.
17:54:45 <Gregor> Neato.
17:54:53 <zzo38> Does this make a monad? data M t x = M0 x | M1 (t (M t) x); join (M1 x) = M1 (x >>= lift);
17:55:28 <fizzie> We crossed the Belgium/Luxembourg border at "Sterpenich", which sounds a bit silly too. (YMMV.)
17:55:38 <Taneb> zzo38, only if t (M t) is a functor?
17:56:11 <zzo38> Taneb: But that is already one of the conditions that lift exists
17:56:20 <Taneb> :t lift
17:56:21 <lambdabot> forall (m :: * -> *) a (t :: (* -> *) -> * -> *). (MonadTrans t, Monad m) => m a -> t m a
17:56:35 <fizzie> Taneb: What place is the weird place?
17:57:05 <Taneb> I forget the name
17:57:12 <Taneb> It's got a bubbly border
17:57:55 <fizzie> Taneb: Baarle-Nassau?
17:57:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, how can you get your change in SEK, it probably won't add up
17:58:05 <Vorpal> due to inexact conversion ratios
17:58:13 <Taneb> fizzie, quite possibly
17:58:23 <fizzie> Taneb: At least it looks really silly in Google Maps.
17:58:38 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/maps/5cQn
17:59:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, that domain saved you 3 letters, what is the point
17:59:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's what comes out when you press "short URL" in the "permalink to this place" in Google Maps.
17:59:45 <Vorpal> oh okay
17:59:57 <fizzie> I mean, the alternative would've been something like https://maps.google.com/?ll=51.430896,4.921188&spn=0.092361,0.263844&t=m&z=13
17:59:59 <zzo38> The dual may go data W t x = W x (t (W t) x); duplicate (W x y) = W (W x y) (y =>> lower);
18:00:01 <Vorpal> anyway, that place has quite a bit of nesting it seems
18:00:01 <fizzie> That's a bit longer.
18:00:05 <Vorpal> 2 levels?
18:00:51 <fizzie> "Baarle-Hertog consists of 26 separate pieces of land. Apart from the main piece (called Zondereigen) located north of the Belgian town of Merksplas, there are 22 Belgian exclaves in the Netherlands and three other pieces on the Dutch-Belgian border. There are also six Dutch exclaves located within the largest Belgian exclave, one within the second-largest, and an eighth within Zondereigen. ...
18:00:57 <fizzie> ... The smallest Belgian parcel, H12, measures 2,632 square metres.
18:00:59 <fizzie> That's kinda a funny.
18:01:01 <fizzie> The border's complexity results from a number of equally complex medieval treaties, agreements, land-swaps and sales between the Lords of Breda and the Dukes of Brabant."
18:01:03 <zzo38> I have some idea today: A simultaneous chessboxing like card game.
18:01:15 <fizzie> The similar kink in the Sweden/Finland border is not at all as funny.
18:01:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, there is a similiar situation there?
18:01:42 <Vorpal> I thought it just went straight through Haparanda?
18:01:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: Not there; the place in Åland with the funny shape.
18:02:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's been discussed on channel. It's the place where they drew the border and then discovered that lighthouse had been built on the wrong side.
18:02:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, isn't Åland all Finnish?
18:02:16 <Vorpal> oh
18:02:22 <Vorpal> got a google maps link?
18:02:23 <fizzie> Well, the island between Åland and Sweden.
18:02:26 <fizzie> I can find it.
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18:03:59 <fizzie> Well, this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4rket
18:04:20 <fizzie> There's one of Wikipedia's general-purpose geolinks from there.
18:04:20 <Vorpal> heh
18:04:43 <fizzie> For some reason, though, Google Maps is not showing me the Finland/Sweden border.
18:04:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, it goes a bit further in on the Finnish side there, is that to compensate for the lost land?
18:05:11 <fizzie> "There is a lighthouse on the Finnish side of the current border, which has been unmanned and automated since 1979. When it was built by the Russians and Finns in 1885 there were no clear maps of the island. After the completion of the lighthouse, it was discovered that it had been built on the Swedish part of the island.
18:05:16 <fizzie> As a result, the border was adjusted in 1985 so that the lighthouse is now located on Finnish territory.[4] The adjustment was carried out such that no net transfer of territory occurred, and the ownership of the coastline was unchanged so as not to interfere with each country's fishing rights."
18:05:26 <Vorpal> heh
18:05:29 <fizzie> I suppose it tries to keep the land area constant.
18:05:59 <Vorpal> why did they put a länsgräns on it
18:06:16 <fizzie> That I don't really know.
18:06:24 <fizzie> It's not exactly a terribly interesting island.
18:06:58 <fizzie> I suppose it might help navigationally in knowing where the border goes.
18:07:04 <fizzie> In the pre-GPS days, anyway.
18:07:11 <fizzie> I don't think the border is exactly patrolled there.
18:07:35 <fizzie> Not that it's patrolled e.g. in Tornio-Haparanda either, we just drove over a bridge there and that was it.
18:08:35 <Vorpal> right
18:08:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, and what did you expect for an internal Schengen border?
18:08:57 <fizzie> Not much else.
18:09:04 <Vorpal> exactly
18:09:21 <fizzie> During our previous Finland-Sweden-Denmark-Germany-Netherlands-Belgium-France-Germany-Denmark-Sweden-Finland train trip, absolutely nobody checked our passports.
18:09:34 <zzo38> What would you think of simultaneous chessboxing like card game?
18:09:35 <Vorpal> expected
18:09:39 <fizzie> Even though the Interrail tickets explicitly say the passports will be verified on every train trip.
18:09:46 <fizzie> Since the tickets are personal.
18:09:54 <Vorpal> hah
18:10:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway about that place in Belgium and the Netherlands, you said the smallest region was a few square meters. Was that inside a house or outside?
18:11:02 <Vorpal> and what sort of significance does it carry
18:11:03 <fizzie> Few thousand square metres.
18:11:12 <Vorpal> oh
18:11:12 <fizzie> , is not a decimal point in English Wikipedia.
18:11:14 <Vorpal> more boring
18:11:16 <Vorpal> right
18:11:28 <fizzie> It's still pretty small.
18:11:32 <Vorpal> well yes
18:11:44 <Vorpal> a few square meters would have been funny
18:12:19 <fizzie> According to Google satellite map, the border goes right through some buildings in oblique angles.
18:12:30 <Vorpal> nice
18:12:49 <fizzie> I'm sure one of those houses has a case where your toilet is in another country.
18:13:00 <spirity> , is a silly decimal point
18:13:02 <spirity> it's not even a point
18:13:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, does it actually go like that, or is it just that google doesn't have high enough precision in the data?
18:13:24 <fizzie> spirity: Sorry, decimal mark.
18:13:37 <spirity> UNACCEPTABLE
18:13:49 <Vorpal> spirity, well, Swedes and Finns use it as a decimal mark
18:13:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't really know. The Wikipedia article's map doesn't show buildings.
18:13:59 <Vorpal> hm
18:14:12 <spirity> Vorpal: yes, it's pretty common actually.
18:14:23 <spirity> the Spanish-speaking world uses , for decimals.
18:14:23 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baarle-Nassau_fronti%C3%A8re_caf%C3%A9.jpg at least they've marked the border there.
18:14:58 <Vorpal> heh
18:15:13 <fizzie> CERN campus is half on France's side, half on Switzerland's side, and I don't think the border was marked in any way.
18:16:06 <Vorpal> also I don't need to write my own graphing calculator for my phone. I found a TI-89 emulator
18:16:12 <Vorpal> isn't that the top model?
18:16:20 <fizzie> It had some CASsy things.
18:16:29 <Vorpal> can it do 3D graphs
18:16:31 <fizzie> They have a TI-92 too, IIRC, but it's a different form factor.
18:16:32 <Vorpal> I know one of them could
18:16:35 <Vorpal> hm
18:17:00 <fizzie> 89 and 92 are the m68k-based ones.
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18:17:22 <fizzie> Also not allowed in exams in Finland, due to being too advanced.
18:17:23 <itidus21> like a megadrive/genesis :o
18:17:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, same in Sweden
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18:18:26 <zzo38> They are not allowed in exams here either, although being too advanced is not the only reason for it (it is one of them); TI-92 is also disallowed because it has a QWERTY keyboard is another reason for it to be disallowed.
18:18:31 <fizzie> IIRC, they made the TI-89 basically by taking the TI-92 and mangling it into the vertical form factor of the "TI-8x" series.
18:18:40 <fizzie> And discontinued the TI-92 while there were at it.
18:18:59 <fizzie> Something like that, anyway. This was in 1998, based on wiki's infoboxen.
18:19:31 <fizzie> "In the United States, the TI-89 is allowed by the College Board on all calculator-permitted tests, including the SAT, some SAT Subject Tests and the AP Calculus, Chemistry, and Statistics exams. However, the calculator is banned from use on the ACT, the PLAN, and in some classrooms. In many testing situations, the TI-89 and TI-89 Titanium, along with the HP-49 series, are the most powerful ...
18:19:37 <fizzie> ... and function-rich graphing calculators that are permitted: the TI-92 series, with otherwise comparable features, have QWERTY keyboards that result in them being classified as computer devices rather than calculators."
18:19:59 <fizzie> Unless I'm mistaken, our ban was more about the algebra features than just a QWERTY keyboard, so I'd think the TI-89 is not allowed either.
18:20:22 <zzo38> At least in my area I think the ban is for both reasons
18:21:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, same here
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18:23:20 <fizzie> Oh.
18:23:36 <fizzie> Starting from 2012, they've decided to allow the TI-Nspire CX CAS.
18:23:42 <fizzie> Which does symbolic algebra stuffs.
18:23:44 <fizzie> That's funny.
18:24:32 <fizzie> It does integrals and derivatives and equation-solving and whatnot.
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18:24:58 <Vorpal> heh
18:24:58 <fizzie> At least TI's page claims that, haven't found the official list yet.
18:25:10 <spirity> I think the TI-89 does all of those things as well?
18:25:41 <fizzie> It does, yes.
18:25:59 <fizzie> But of course TI is highlighting the more expensive model.
18:26:06 <spirity> it's funny how you need these expensive calculators for algebra classes.
18:26:34 <spirity> then when you get into upper level college mathematics its "yeah... you don't need a calculator for this class."
18:26:48 <fizzie> This must be a really new thing, since the other TI guide I found is very explicit about only allowing numeric integration/derivation and such.
18:27:36 <Vorpal> spirity, I found that generally having a TI-83+ is nice. I suck at basic arithmetic in my head. I can do symbol handling just fine. But don't ask me was 279+148 is :P
18:27:52 <spirity> 427?
18:27:57 <spirity> > 279+148
18:27:58 <lambdabot> 427
18:28:02 <Vorpal> okay
18:28:09 * spirity was making sure he can still do arithmetic.
18:28:19 <fizzie> Is this official instruction PDF from the Matriculation Examination Board written in... Comic Sans?
18:28:22 <spirity> I'm weird though because I work backwards from the way you learn how to do it
18:28:26 <spirity> I start with 2 + 1 on the left side
18:28:33 <fizzie> Yeah, it is.
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18:28:40 <fizzie> $ pdffonts Downloads/matematiikka.pdf
18:28:40 <fizzie> name type emb sub uni object ID
18:28:40 <fizzie> ------------------------------------ ----------------- --- --- --- ---------
18:28:40 <fizzie> LLRLKW+TimesNewRomanPSMT TrueType yes yes yes 93 0
18:28:41 <fizzie> VNPTUC+ComicSansMS TrueType yes yes yes 94 0
18:28:46 <fizzie> That's so professional.
18:29:23 <Vorpal> heh
18:29:41 <spirity> so I do 2 + 1, then 4 + 7, carry the 10 to the previous calculation, then 8+9, carry the 10 to the previous calculation
18:29:43 <fizzie> And it says that "all calculators are allowed". Wowza.
18:29:49 <fizzie> Well, times change, I guess.
18:30:05 <spirity> unfortunatly that means sometimes I have to "double carry" in reverse, which is a bit more difficult than the standard method.
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18:31:18 <mroman> lucky you @symbol handling
18:33:17 <AnotherTest> mroman: where can I download a burlesque interpreter/compiler?
18:33:32 <mroman> AnotherTest: https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque
18:33:47 <AnotherTest> Thanks
18:34:20 <AnotherTest> is this relatively stable?
18:35:07 <mroman> In terms of what?
18:36:03 <mroman> It doesn't support every builtin function I want it to support yet.
18:36:17 <AnotherTest> As in bugs in the implemented features
18:37:26 <mroman> I've tested every function by hand and so far they worked to my satisfaction.
18:37:50 <mroman> I haven't implemented support for automatic testing yet.
18:39:19 <zzo38> The BBS door games do not seem to test whether or not your terminal can display the club suit
18:39:56 <zzo38> It may not be testable on all terminals either, but some may be able to report the cursor position
18:41:11 <mroman> AnotherTest: Are you considering using Burlesque for something?
18:43:49 <Taneb> Hey guys
18:44:15 <Taneb> I've got a new computer, but due to me not doing the research, it has an nVidia graphics card
18:44:19 <Taneb> reccomended OS?
18:44:40 <fizzie> OS/2 Warp.
18:45:26 <mroman> Haiku.
18:45:33 <Taneb> Bye
18:45:34 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:45:49 <Gregor> Well done, sirs.
18:45:49 <fizzie> Oh no we drove it off. :/
18:47:20 <mroman> Well, "recommended OS?" is a question you just shouldn't ask ;)
18:48:07 <zzo38> Use whatever OS you want
18:48:08 <fizzie> Reccomended OS even more so.
18:48:26 <zzo38> Dual boot if you want
18:48:32 <mroman> rec co-mened?
18:48:41 <fizzie> Re-commenced OS.
18:48:49 <fizzie> Dual boot and triple compile.
18:48:53 <fizzie> Or was it double.
18:48:54 <mroman> record co-mended operating system.
18:49:06 <fizzie> Yeah, it was just double.
18:49:32 <mroman> "It records your (co-)mending! Only $0.50."
18:53:59 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:54:03 <Taneb> Hello
18:54:11 <Taneb> First off, I can't spell some words
18:54:14 <Taneb> Like reccomend
18:54:21 <olsner> OS/2 Warp
18:55:32 <Taneb> Second off, I'm probably gonna trial-boot Windows 7/Ubuntu/Haiku
18:56:22 <nortti> olsner: Warp 3 or Warp 4?
18:56:38 <nortti> Taneb: *triple-boot?
18:56:50 <mroman> trial-triple-boot .
18:56:57 <Taneb> nortti, if it's triple, then it's double-boot for two
18:57:09 <olsner> nortti: 4 obviously, it has built-in voice recognition
18:57:14 <Taneb> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trial#Adjective_2
18:57:51 <nortti> by the way reccomend a OS for me
18:58:04 <Taneb> Windows 98 SE
18:58:10 <Taneb> The first OS I learnt to yous
18:58:13 <Taneb> *use
18:58:27 <nortti> Taneb: is it available without IE?
18:58:34 <Gregor> Da first OS youse learnt to youse
18:58:41 <Gregor> *ta
18:59:01 <Taneb> I think in sounds, and stammer and slur on the inside
18:59:04 <Taneb> It isn't fun
18:59:28 <nortti> olsner: and also do you have any experience with OS/2 2.0? I'm getting install floppy pack for it
18:59:43 <Taneb> I don't even have a floppy drive
18:59:57 <nortti> I have on my server
18:59:58 <Taneb> Well, I do, but it's on the '98 computer
19:00:10 <Taneb> Which doesn't have a mouse or a screen
19:00:27 <zzo38> How can you operate it without a screen?
19:00:41 <zzo38> Can you connect a terminal to a serial port or something like that?
19:00:41 <Taneb> I don't
19:00:48 <Taneb> It's sitting in my bedroom doing nothing
19:03:20 <olsner> nortti: not sure if I've ever used that, I suspect that Warp 3 was my first OS/2 experience
19:03:57 <nortti> using my server floppy drive is bit clunky sometimes. I usually execute nc -l -p 1234 > name.img on my main machine, ssh to my sever and execxute nc 192.168.255.3 1234 < /dev/fd0
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19:05:59 <mroman> People should stop using fib as an abbreviation for fibonacci.
19:06:05 <mroman> It's very misleading.
19:06:08 <nortti> why?
19:06:22 <mroman> @word
19:06:26 <mroman> @help
19:06:27 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:06:29 <nortti> oh fib and not fibo
19:06:30 <mroman> @list
19:06:30 <lambdabot> http://code.haskell.org/lambdabot/COMMANDS
19:06:41 <mroman> @all-dicts fib
19:06:42 <lambdabot> *** "Fib" gcide "The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48"
19:06:42 <lambdabot> Fib \Fib\, n. [Prob. fr. fable; cf. Prov. E. fibble-fabble
19:06:42 <lambdabot> nonsense.]
19:06:42 <lambdabot> A falsehood; a lie; -- used euphemistically.
19:06:42 <lambdabot> [1913 Webster]
19:06:43 <lambdabot> [61 @more lines]
19:07:10 <mroman> fib is a lie!
19:08:02 <mroman> A function named fib can actually do whatever it wants and still satisfy its name.
19:09:43 <AnotherTest> mroman: I might try it out.
19:11:33 <mroman> from now on
19:11:48 <mroman> > let fib = fix (error) in fib
19:11:49 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *E...
19:12:59 <Gregor> > let fib n = "The fib function computes the nth value in the Fibonacci sequence."
19:13:00 <lambdabot> not an expression: `let fib n = "The fib function computes the nth value in...
19:13:09 <Gregor> Yeah, I don't remember my Haskell at all 8-D
19:14:31 <mroman> > let fib n = "This is the " ++ show n ++ "th fibonacci number" in fib 8
19:14:33 <lambdabot> "This is the 8th fibonacci number"
19:14:58 <Gregor> Now it always lies 8-D
19:15:06 <Gregor> (Well, OK, within that let expression it always lies)
19:15:23 <mroman> > let fib = fix(scanl(+)0.(1:)) in take 10 fib
19:15:25 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34]
19:15:38 <Gregor> But at least it can calculate the thirth Fibonacci number.
19:16:19 -!- MDude has joined.
19:16:23 <mroman> > let fib = fix(scanl(+)0.(1:)) in fib !! 30
19:16:25 <lambdabot> 832040
19:16:36 <mroman> > let fib = fix(scanl(+)0.(1:)) in fib !! 90
19:16:38 <lambdabot> 2880067194370816120
19:17:20 <zzo38> Gregor: Why you did not remember Haskell?
19:18:04 <AnotherTest> Burlesque/Types.hs:9:7:
19:18:04 <AnotherTest> Could not find module `Control.Monad.State':
19:18:04 <AnotherTest> locations searched:
19:18:04 <AnotherTest> Control/Monad/State.hs
19:18:04 <AnotherTest> Control/Monad/State.lhs
19:18:18 <AnotherTest> Am I missing a library?
19:18:21 <mroman> AnotherTest: Yes.
19:18:29 <AnotherTest> Which one?
19:18:31 <mroman> Control.Monad.State comes with the haskell-platform actually.
19:18:35 <mroman> Which is recommended to install
19:18:36 <AnotherTest> hm
19:18:37 <shachaf> kmc: Who said I don't even have a television? I just said I don't own one.
19:18:41 <zzo38> I think it is in mtl
19:19:08 <mroman> AnotherTest: The library itself is probably "monad-state"
19:19:16 <mroman> cabal install monad-state
19:19:59 <AnotherTest> don't have cabal, I just did apt-get install haskell-platform
19:20:40 <AnotherTest> The reason was that I recently switched to debian, but I didn't install that package
19:20:54 <AnotherTest> (I installed ghc only)
19:22:20 <mroman> haskell-platform should contain Control.Monad.State
19:22:34 <AnotherTest> Yes, I just successfully compiled it
19:23:09 <mroman> Ok.
19:23:14 <spirity> O
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19:25:53 <mroman> Then you can just go with ghci and use putStr $ runProgram "{{ab cd}{ef gh}}\\[" ""
19:25:54 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
19:29:34 <mroman> or echo "1 2 3 4" | runhaskell main.hs examples/sumNum.blsq of course
19:31:08 <AnotherTest> can't it work as a stand-alone executable?
19:31:20 <mroman> It can.
19:31:49 <mroman> ghc --make main.hs -o burlesque
19:32:05 <AnotherTest> I did that but, maybe you should allow something like
19:32:16 <AnotherTest> ./burlesque "program"
19:32:27 <mroman> oh. well.
19:32:33 <mroman> sure.
19:34:47 <AnotherTest> Using files is good for me though, I can just use Crtl + D when I want the output
19:38:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: in Stlang you would use { comment } $, how do you (if you can) add comments in Burleque?
19:38:20 <AnotherTest> *Burlesque
19:38:39 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/0ffb922dca49343f4dbb3820050ff577f188bd58/main.hs <- contains some hacky command line options
19:39:45 <mroman> AnotherTest: You can do {"I am a comment"}vv
19:40:00 <AnotherTest> alright
19:40:02 <spirity> so with the changes I've made to dogless I'm pretty confident it's turing complete.
19:40:06 <mroman> or "I am a comment"vv
19:40:07 <spirity> I'll need to write up a sepc though
19:40:11 <AnotherTest> I need to look more at your source code :p
19:40:26 <mroman> vv is pop.
19:40:46 <AnotherTest> that helps
19:40:47 <AnotherTest> so
19:40:51 <AnotherTest> ^^ would push?
19:40:58 <mroman> ^^ is duplicate
19:41:01 <AnotherTest> oh
19:41:11 <mroman> AnotherTest: Values are pushed automatically.
19:41:12 <AnotherTest> it pushes whatever you give it?
19:41:15 <AnotherTest> ah okay
19:41:32 <spirity> sounds like a normal stack-based language.
19:41:38 <spirity> at least the pushing behavior
19:41:56 <AnotherTest> lines 29-46 of Eval.hs help
19:42:19 <mroman> :)
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19:43:43 <spirity> yeah with this change dogless is turing complete as far as I can tell
19:43:53 <spirity> you can more or less modify arbitrary characters in the source code.
19:47:56 <mroman> Reverse on Block should probably reverse the block :)
19:48:01 <mroman> that would be a nifty feature :)
19:50:02 <AnotherTest> indeed
19:51:07 <AnotherTest> mroman: a while's condition must be non-zero for it to continue, I assume?
19:52:26 <mroman> AnotherTest: Exactly.
19:55:05 <mroman> But there are no comparision functions yet.
19:55:10 <mroman> so
19:55:20 <mroman> 10{1.-}{1.-}w! loops until that 10 reaches 1
19:55:27 <mroman> 10{1.-}{5.-}w! loops until that 10 reaches 5
19:55:29 <mroman> and so on.
19:56:51 <mroman> and evaluating the while condition does not affect the global stack
19:57:30 <AnotherTest> ah okay
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20:02:17 <mroman> but I can add comparision functions in a minute.
20:02:26 <mroman> Adding builtin functions is usually a piece of cake
20:02:41 <mroman> unless they are more complicated like while or concat
20:04:21 <AnotherTest> What does ~] do exactly?
20:06:21 <mroman> "hello"~] is "hell"
20:06:32 <mroman> it returns the list without its last element.
20:06:32 <AnotherTest> okay
20:06:41 <mroman> or block
20:06:48 <mroman> actually Burlesque doesn't have lists :)
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20:08:45 <AnotherTest> Does it work for numbers? (could you remove the last byte?)
20:08:53 <AnotherTest> (or bit)
20:08:58 <mroman> Not yet.
20:09:00 <mroman> But good ideas.
20:09:18 <mroman> The problem is you can't have both :)
20:09:19 <AnotherTest> I'm going too look into this more tomorrow
20:09:20 <AnotherTest> bye
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20:46:01 <mroman> @tell AnotherTest http://mroman.ch/burlesque/builtins.html <- up to date reference table of builtins
20:46:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:46:12 <mroman> @tell lambdabot Thank you.
20:46:12 <lambdabot> Nice try ;)
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21:12:35 <olsner> heh, "Perhaps it's a typo, and was meant to be AArgh64" (regarding arm64 being called aarch64)
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22:08:44 <zzo38> Do you know if Csound accepts hex literals?
22:18:36 <soundnfury> Someone just suggested to me that I should write an operating system in make
22:18:48 <soundnfury> and the worst part is, I'm thinking about how I would
22:25:27 <mroman> Does make even have enough capabilities for that?
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22:27:42 <mroman> My make skills are sadly really bad :(
22:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well no, because by its nature it requires a preexisting operating system.
22:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you use a copout like doing IO mapping, and you can write an OS with literally any TC language + IO mapping.
22:28:39 <nortti> soundnfury: how would it communicate with hw?
22:28:53 <soundnfury> nortti: It's make + echo
22:29:14 <nortti> soundnfury: devide driver level?
22:29:22 <soundnfury> It would need to use /dev, yes
22:29:40 <soundnfury> but the trick is to have include files which you change
22:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> /dev, which is implemented... by the operating system.
22:30:03 <soundnfury> because that causes Make to restart itself
22:30:12 <nortti> top 3 esolangs: dc, sed and make
22:30:31 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: well /obviously/ this is a virtualisation-only OS
22:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
22:30:54 <mroman> apl, perl, ruby ;)
22:30:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you mean VM-only?
22:31:03 <olsner> soundnfury: have you seen the makefile mandlebrot?
22:31:12 <soundnfury> olsner: Idon't think I have
22:31:16 <soundnfury> or desire to :/
22:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Because then /dev is still being implemented by the virtualised OS.
22:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> And you're then implementing your make "OS" on top of that.
22:31:44 <soundnfury> C++, C++, and, erm, C++ STL
22:31:59 <mroman> Well
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22:32:14 <mroman> Couldn't you build a compiler for it?
22:32:30 <mroman> and I think make allows shell stuff?
22:32:31 <mroman> so
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22:32:37 <soundnfury> You could build a hardware Makefile coprocessor ;)
22:32:47 <mroman> cat /io/port/...
22:32:54 <mroman> echo > /io/port/...
22:33:00 <nortti> soundnfury: make an os with low level kernel written in asm and high level system in make ;)
22:33:12 <soundnfury> yeah all I'd allow would be echo >
22:33:32 <soundnfury> nortti: It's kinda tempting
22:33:40 <mroman> but that certainly needs a runtime system.
22:33:47 <mroman> or maybe not.
22:33:56 <mroman> if you compile you can special case that :)
22:34:00 <mroman> if one can compile make
22:34:02 <nortti> mroman: it can be written in recursive sed !
22:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, but in that case the pathnames are just syntactic sugar for hardware IO instructions, and that's not even make any more.
22:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a language with very similar syntax but totally different semantics.
22:34:53 <mroman> well. make allows embedding shell script?
22:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> (You can't do hardware IO with shell builtins either.)
22:35:24 <olsner> nortti: sed is recursive enough on its own, I think
22:35:41 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: I get your point.
22:35:48 <nortti> olsner: is normal sed tc?
22:36:10 <mroman> But it would be a reasonable trade-off to sugar some IO stuff
22:36:16 <mroman> (imho)
22:36:21 <olsner> nortti: yep
22:36:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Implementing $thing with some ridiculous language is cool /if the language is actually applicable to $thing's domain/.
22:36:29 <nortti> olsner: how?
22:36:43 <olsner> you can put it in a loop, which makes string rewriting trivial
22:36:49 <olsner> it has branches and everything
22:37:49 <mroman> Is there a brainfuck interpreter in sed?
22:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> So implementing, say, find in make would count, but completely changing the fundamentals of make so you can implement an OS in it and then implementing an OS is... kind of ugly.
22:38:16 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, there's a compiler.
22:38:28 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: where?
22:38:38 <Phantom_Hoover> http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/
22:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> http://shinh.skr.jp/koneta/bfx.sed, specifically.
22:39:10 <mroman> Compiler doesn't count.
22:39:19 <olsner> "It compiles brainfuck code into linux ELF binary." :D
22:39:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I note it doesn't specify which architecture.
22:39:52 <zzo38> Is there some way to make hexadecimal numbers in Csound?
22:40:26 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:FireFly/sedfuck.sed
22:40:32 <mroman> ^- whatever "half-working" means.
22:40:38 <zzo38> Possibly by use macros?
22:40:47 <FireFly> can't remember
22:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Ask FireFly.
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22:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit FireFly
22:41:22 <FireFly> I guess I didn't implement .,
22:41:33 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: looks like x86
22:41:34 <FireFly> well, not , at least
22:41:54 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, well yes, that's the obvious one.
22:42:04 <shachaf> HireFly
22:42:19 <shachaf> LongtimenosireFly
22:42:27 <nortti> no. it is lunix on 6502
22:43:05 <mroman> dc is turing complete?
22:43:21 <nortti> is make tc?
22:43:26 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, yes.
22:43:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Unbounded recursion is simple, since it allows arbitrary execution of stored code.
22:44:39 <soundnfury> nortti: make together with cat is almost certainly tc
22:44:47 <nortti> hmm
22:44:56 <soundnfury> because if an included file is changed Make restarts
22:45:15 <soundnfury> so you just have a Makefile that includes a bunch of its own targets
22:45:55 <olsner> I think running any commands is cheating
22:46:26 <olsner> combining $(patsubst) and recursive make (or some other way of doing unbounded recursion/restarting) should be turing complete though
22:46:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm tempted to agree with olsner here.
22:47:14 <nortti> what is the computational class on cpp?
22:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Muddy.
22:49:31 <nortti> what about computational class of yacc/lex?
22:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It's TC if certain conditions are guaranteed, but they aren't in many implementations.
22:49:45 <Phantom_Hoover> No idea about those.
22:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> C's arguably not TC, but that's another kettle of worms.
22:50:20 <mroman> ?
22:50:43 <olsner> I think we decided beyond arguably that C is not TC
22:50:51 <shachaf> olsner: Even with files?
22:50:51 <mroman> How so?
22:50:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I wasn't listening at the time.
22:51:08 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, sizeof must return a finite integer for all types.
22:51:17 <zzo38> But what if char is storing any integer?
22:51:20 <olsner> mroman: basically because pointers have a constant size so you can't have infinite memory
22:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> So pointers are bounded, so there's a finite bound on addressable memory.
22:51:30 <shachaf> But files!
22:51:37 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, chars have to have a fixed number of bits.
22:51:42 <olsner> files might be an escape hatch, if they can be infinite size
22:51:49 <Phantom_Hoover> fstat.
22:52:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Does it always have to be 8-bits?
22:52:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Although I guess fstat /dev/random must break that counterpoint.
22:52:30 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, I don't think so.
22:52:31 <mroman> Makes sense.
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22:53:29 <shachaf> olsner: I think POSIX allows ftell() to fail.
22:54:00 <mroman> assembler is not turing complete as well?
22:54:56 <mroman> Memory addressing also has a size limit.
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22:59:01 <shachaf> "assembler" isn't a language.
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23:00:22 <olsner> macro assemblers might be turing-complete
23:06:16 <mroman> it's a family of programming languages then.
23:06:51 <mroman> if you allow assembler as a shortcut for assembly language
23:07:37 <mroman> or a translation error
23:07:46 <mroman> as in german there is no assembly <-> assembler distinction
23:08:04 <mroman> whatever.
23:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> <shachaf> olsner: I think POSIX allows ftell() to fail.
23:09:55 <Phantom_Hoover> TbH if you're going to include POSIX it's a bit of a stretch to call it C.
23:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's clear that C is not TC without standard libraries, can we leave it at that?
23:10:49 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: OK, but I think ANSI C allows that extension.
23:11:23 <olsner> I kind of think the stdlib should count though, making it TC if you use files for storage?
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23:11:46 <shachaf> olsner: The question is whether ftell() makes it TinC again.
23:11:56 <shachaf> And I think the answer was no because it can fail.
23:13:06 <fizzie> Re size of char, it's CHAR_BIT bits, which is >= 8.
23:15:14 <fizzie> Last time I think there was also some discussion on whether the stack needs to be finite even if you don't take pointers to elements in it, but that's perhaps not a terribly interesting way to go.
23:15:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, what's to stop the sizes of everything being infinity?
23:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, does 'the stack' actually exist in C, especially less standard libs?
23:16:07 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: CHAR_BIT, I think
23:16:10 <fizzie> sizeof returns a size_t, which is an unsigned integer type, and sizeof (size_t) must be some integer.
23:16:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, why didn't K&R just say 'ordinal' instead.
23:18:20 <fizzie> And there's no 'the stack', but there's 'a stack' implied by the way functions are called and return, even if it's not implemented in a stacky way. Still, that doesn't help a whole lot.
23:19:08 <olsner> one idea would be a stratified C where your program restarts with double the pointer size after running out of memory, though that probably breaks some rules
23:19:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Not really, it's just not C.
23:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> It's C-with-TC-duct-tape.
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23:20:38 <soundnfury> Um, the stdlib isn't just defined by POSIX
23:20:46 <soundnfury> The C standard itself defines a lot of it
23:20:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. I know.
23:20:49 <olsner> well, I meant a C implementation that did that "transparently"
23:21:38 <fizzie> But arguably you could have something like int f(void) { char c = get(); if (c == 'a') if (f() == FAIL) return FAIL; if (get() != 'b') return FAIL; return ACCEPT; } that recognizes a^n b^n, something you can't do without some form of unbounded storage, that could be allowed to work for arbitrary n since there are no user-visible pointers involved. (Doesn't make it TC, of course, it's just a ...
23:21:44 <fizzie> ... comment on the storageness.)
23:22:38 <fizzie> Modulo bugs in that code, but you get the idea.
23:22:43 <soundnfury> I'd be tempted to declare c with storage class register, thereby guaranteeing that we won't & it
23:23:11 <fizzie> You can write it withot 'c' as well if you like.
23:23:34 <fizzie> Then there's nothing that you could even take pointers of.
23:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> See why I said 'arguably' now, olsner?
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23:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> hello monqy we are debating the tcness of c, do join the 'fune' as you call it
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23:26:47 <fizzie> Heh.
23:27:04 <fizzie> But the files do provide an easier way for a C implementation to provide an infinite tape that more or less fits within the rules, that's for sure.
23:27:20 <fizzie> You know, one of those implementations running on a machine with infinite tapes available.
23:27:38 * Gregor grabs his USB infinite tape device.
23:28:56 <fizzie> To nitpick on my own comment, sizeof is an operator and therefore never "returns" anything, it just yields a value.
23:30:55 <fizzie> (Going to sleeb now.)
23:31:57 <soundnfury> hang on, the behaviour of >> on signed types is implementation-defined, right?
23:32:14 <soundnfury> or is it arithmetic overflow on signed types that's implementation-defined
23:32:32 <soundnfury> if the former, we can have >> yield the bits that were previously <<ed off, if any
23:38:07 * soundnfury is bored
23:38:14 <soundnfury> but can't be arsed to code anything
23:43:05 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: yes, arguably everything is arguable
23:43:23 <ion> olsner: I disagree.
23:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I wouldn't argue that.
23:43:48 <olsner> ... arguably you wouldn't
23:44:51 <olsner> btw, found some secure C coding guidelines that warned against using fseek and ftell because they might not work well on infinite files
23:46:01 <Phantom_Hoover> All of this would be solved if language designers had just followed my suggestion.
23:46:45 <nortti_> your suggestion?
23:48:15 <Phantom_Hoover> s/integer/ordinal/.
23:48:32 <nortti_> oh
23:49:43 <olsner> soundnfury: you can't use << and >> to magically add invisible bits, any piece of data is a series of bytes each having a constant number of bits, and those bits should be enough to recreate the original value
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00:45:32 <soundnfury> olsner: oh right, because you can always turn any object into an array of char, and Good Things are guaranteed to happen
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01:14:09 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, if I'm holding data in a variable, and I want to persist it to a file, is it a terrible idea to just put a variable trace on that variable and have it write the variable's value out to a file?
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02:07:34 <Sgeo_> Eek, I think Tcl is making me think in terms of global variables more :/
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02:15:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh wow, I never realise YouTube free energy videos would be so hilarious.
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03:13:27 <pikhq> Sgeo_: *wince*
03:13:48 <Sgeo_> pikhq, at my variable tracing thoughts?
03:13:54 <pikhq> Yeah.
03:14:05 * variable traces Sgeo_ thoughts
03:15:44 <Sgeo_> Blah
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03:22:06 <Jafet> > let e('(':'\\':v:'.':l)=let(x,')':t)=e$d l in("(\\"++v:'.':x++")",t);e('(':s)=let(x,t)=e s;(y,')':u)=e$d t in(a x y,u);e s=splitAt 1$d s;d=dropWhile(==' ');a('(':'\\':v:'.':l)s=let f x|x==v=s|1>0=[x]in init l>>=f;a f x="("++f++" "++x++")" in fst$e "((\\x. (x x)) (\\x. (x x)))"
03:22:08 <lambdabot> "((\\x.(x x)) (\\x.(x x)))"
03:23:42 -!- augur has joined.
03:24:11 <oerjan> > let e('(':'\\':v:'.':l)=let(x,')':t)=e$d l in("(\\"++v:'.':x++")",t);e('(':s)=let(x,t)=e s;(y,')':u)=e$d t in(a x y,u);e s=splitAt 1$d s;d=dropWhile(==' ');a('(':'\\':v:'.':l)s=let f x|x==v=s|1>0=[x]in init l>>=f;a f x="("++f++" "++x++")" in fst$e ""((\\x. (\\y. x)) (\\z. z)"
03:24:12 <lambdabot> <no location info>:
03:24:12 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end o...
03:24:16 <oerjan> oops
03:24:30 <oerjan> > let e('(':'\\':v:'.':l)=let(x,')':t)=e$d l in("(\\"++v:'.':x++")",t);e('(':s)=let(x,t)=e s;(y,')':u)=e$d t in(a x y,u);e s=splitAt 1$d s;d=dropWhile(==' ');a('(':'\\':v:'.':l)s=let f x|x==v=s|1>0=[x]in init l>>=f;a f x="("++f++" "++x++")" in fst$e "((\\x. (\\y. x)) (\\z. z))"
03:24:33 <lambdabot> "(\\y.(\\z.z))"
03:24:53 <oerjan> fancy
03:25:11 <Jafet> Well, it's only short because substitution isn't hygienic
03:25:17 <oerjan> ah.
03:25:53 <Sgeo_> pikhq, what are good uses of variable tracing?
03:26:01 <Sgeo_> And is my idea really that terrible :/
03:26:20 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Debugging, inspiring drinking.
03:26:42 <oerjan> haskell's tracing function uses unsafePerformIO, just a hint
03:26:53 <Sgeo_> Different thing
03:27:11 <Sgeo_> Tcl's tracing lets you run code when a specified variable is read from or written to or unset
03:27:18 <pikhq> oerjan: Tcl variable tracing is where you set up a callback that is triggered every time a variable is mutated.
03:27:58 <oerjan> ok
03:29:10 <Sgeo_> Is there a command like this in some standard library somewhere?
03:29:17 <Sgeo_> Or, well, some thingy like tcllib
03:30:09 <Sgeo_> proc debugline args { set result [uplevel 1 $args]; puts "$args -> $result"; return $result }
03:30:15 <Sgeo_> Wait, that doesn't quite work, does it
03:33:16 <Sgeo_> Meh, just a command to stick in front of a line to print the line and its result
03:33:28 <Sgeo_> I could probably write it myself, just wondering if it pre-exists
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04:12:58 <Sgeo_> pikhq, what sort of headaches does variable tracing cause?
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04:30:37 <variable> Sgeo_: all sorts
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04:35:06 <oerjan> bassett's headache liquorice
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05:35:18 <spirity> so
05:35:28 <spirity> salt is essential for the survival of many animals.
05:35:57 <spirity> but it doesn't seem that abundant in nature? Is it just consumed from saltwater and saltwater fish and then propoagates through the food chain of carnivores?
05:36:45 <spirity> s/salt/sodium/
05:39:30 <pikhq> spirity: I guess? Salt is essential for the survival of animals, but not in large quantities, so...
05:45:38 <spirity> seems to be the case.
05:45:50 <spirity> apparently herbivores get along fine without too much salt.
05:46:33 <spirity> very few plants contain sodium
05:47:27 <pikhq> Though, herbivores in particular will often explicitly seek out salt licks.
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06:01:41 <spirity> Peppercorns (dried black pepper) are, by monetary value, the most widely traded spice in the world, accounting for 20 percent of all spice imports in 2002. The price of pepper can be volatile, and this figure fluctuates a great deal year to year; for example, pepper made up 39 percent of all spice imports in 1998.
06:01:46 <spirity> that's really weird to me.
06:01:46 * pikhq_ cannot explain his enjoyment of this series
06:01:51 <spirity> black pepper isn't even that great of a spice.
06:01:55 <spirity> pikhq_: which
06:01:58 <pikhq_> MLP
06:02:33 <pikhq_> And, yeah. It's not that pepper is a very *expensive* spice, it's just used a lot.
06:03:05 <pikhq_> I bet by mass it's on the order of 50% of the spice trade.
06:03:24 <spirity> I typically use red pepper in place of black pepper, for things where it makes sense.
06:03:33 <spirity> like soups and such.
06:04:00 * spirity enjoys spicey foods.
06:05:37 * pikhq_ concurs
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06:12:37 <spirity> so I just noticed
06:13:00 <spirity> that most western european cuisines aren't really known for spicy foods.
06:13:35 <spirity> compared to say, korean, thai, south america, indian.
06:14:41 <pikhq_> Or even North American. At least, we've got a nice tendency to adopt spicy foods from other cultures...
06:15:03 <spirity> is authentic Italian spicy?
06:15:21 <pikhq_> Well. I guess Tex-Mex is purely American, and reasonably spicy...
06:15:40 <spirity> America has all the cuisines.
06:15:44 <pikhq_> True.
06:15:58 <pikhq_> That's kinda the only distinctive property it has.
06:16:06 <pikhq_> (cuisine-wise)
06:17:51 <spirity> yep
06:18:05 <spirity> pizza? sure. but it could use some pineapples you know.
06:18:09 * spirity american logic.
06:19:13 <pikhq_> Quite right.
06:19:18 <pikhq_> And extra cheese.
06:19:55 <spirity> Epic Meal Time is actually the essence of American cuisine in its purest form.
06:20:00 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, what's the worst that will happen if I use variable traces the way I said?
06:20:08 <pikhq_> Though it's Canadian, I agree.
06:20:15 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: You will confuse yourself greatly.
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06:20:34 <spirity> pikhq_: I thought they were from Vermont or something.
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06:21:37 <pikhq_> spirity: Montreal.
06:21:52 <pikhq_> Vermont's *like* Canada.
06:22:08 <spirity> oh. okay.
06:22:16 <spirity> that makes perfect sense actually
06:22:21 <spirity> americans would never do that to food.
06:22:28 <pikhq_> Nah, we totally would.
06:22:42 <spirity> well, maybe.
06:22:45 <pikhq_> 'Cept with more cheese.
06:22:48 <spirity> but we wouldn't make an internet show about it
06:22:55 <spirity> we'd just eat it and move on with our lives
06:23:10 <pikhq_> Yeah, we'd make a restaurant instead.
06:23:47 <pikhq_> (see: Texas)
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06:38:07 <Sgeo_> pikhq, not totally sure why I'd be confused, especially in the script in question is a simple one.
06:39:07 <pikhq> Sgeo_: Basically, variable tracing in Tcl is on par with ptrace for Linux binaries. It'll work, but it's Nasty™.
06:39:34 <Sgeo_> I don't know anything about prtrace
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07:32:30 <Taneb> Hello
07:33:08 <Sgeo_> hi
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08:31:09 <spirity> hi
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08:45:46 <AnotherTest> mroman: thanks for the reference table :D
08:56:01 <Vorpal> fuck ant
08:59:37 <spirity> yes
09:00:45 <Vorpal> I have no option though, existing project for which I'm writing a small patch. Also Android SDK...
09:01:19 <mroman> AnotherTest: No problem ;)
09:01:33 <mroman> (but you need to pull from the repos. Since I added some functions)
09:01:45 <mroman> also... you can no go into shell mode by calling the binary with --shell
09:01:49 <mroman> *now
09:04:54 <AnotherTest> I think I made something that calculates the Fibonacci sequence
09:05:02 <AnotherTest> but I'll test it first
09:11:37 <AnotherTest> it doesn't
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09:15:11 <Vorpal> mroman, what is it you are working on?
09:17:49 <mroman> Vorpal: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burlesque
09:17:59 <mroman> or... if you prefer a satiric website about it
09:18:10 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/index.html
09:20:39 <AnotherTest> mroman: I made something which, for a number n, n * 2^n
09:20:50 <AnotherTest> Not exactly the intention :p
09:21:39 <AnotherTest> ri^^{\/^^.+\/1.-}{}w!vv
09:23:30 <mroman> But it does n * 2^n :)
09:23:58 <AnotherTest> Indeed
09:26:55 <AnotherTest> I added it to the examples
09:27:49 <AnotherTest> I'll do a decent Fibonacci later :p
09:27:58 <Vorpal> I need a more light weight browser for this computer
09:30:43 <mroman> Although producing n * 2 ^ n will get easier once I added all builtins from Stlang
09:31:18 <AnotherTest> "obfuscated n*n^2" then
09:31:31 <mroman> But good example for using while, thx.
09:32:04 <mroman> 10^^2\/**.*
09:34:36 <mroman> I guess the biggest issue for fibonacci is, that Burlesque has no explicit recursion :)
09:48:16 <mroman> Vorpal: Graphical or Text?
09:49:32 <mroman> Vorpal: http://www.netsurf-browser.org/
09:49:43 <mroman> Small as a mouse, fast as a cheetah!
09:49:59 <Vorpal> mroman, graphical
09:50:01 <mroman> And note that cheetah sounds like cheater in some dialects ;)
09:50:10 <Vorpal> mroman, similar capabilities to firefox, html5 and so on
09:50:17 <mroman> It doesn't fully support everything from html.
09:50:18 <nortti> Vorpal: if you want javascript you can use hv3. itis pretty buggy though
09:50:23 <mroman> Vorpal: Ok
09:50:32 <mroman> So you wan't a lightweight browser that is not lightweight?
09:50:37 <Vorpal> it is not a super old computer. but firefox + android emulator = painful
09:50:47 <nortti> Vorpal: also what os are yo using?
09:51:00 <Vorpal> nortti, 64-bit Ubuntu on this laptop, it has 2 GB RAM
09:51:16 <nortti> hmm..
09:51:21 <Vorpal> 10.04 LTS
09:51:34 <nortti> how is that computer slow/old?
09:51:35 <mroman> http://twotoasts.de/index.php/midori/ then?
09:51:42 <mroman> It uses WebKit so...
09:51:49 <mroman> WebKit should support all the regular stuff.
09:52:00 <Vorpal> nortti, not by itself. But when I run other stuff apart from firefox I can get it to swap trash every now and then
09:52:02 <Vorpal> which is not fun
09:52:17 <Vorpal> and I don't want to have like only 2 tabs open
09:52:30 <Vorpal> I generally have around 30-40 tabs open
09:52:43 <nortti> Vorpal: kazehakase?
09:52:47 <Vorpal> nortti, what?
09:52:57 <nortti> Vorpal: kazehakase
09:53:00 <Vorpal> mroman, will check that out
09:53:03 <Vorpal> nortti, is it a web browser?
09:53:11 <nortti> Vorpal: yes
09:53:57 <nortti> Vorpal: it is directly available from ubuntu repo
09:54:00 <Vorpal> hm okay
09:54:07 <nortti> (or was last time I checked)
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09:54:16 <nortti> also surf from suckless
09:54:24 <Vorpal> nortti, not in the version of ubuntu I run
09:54:25 <nortti> or xxxterm :P
09:54:28 <Vorpal> which is 10.04 LTS
09:54:31 <nortti> hmm
09:54:37 <Vorpal> yes I need to update to the new ubuntu release soon
09:54:44 <Vorpal> but eh, I'm going xubuntu then I think
09:54:56 <nortti> why not lubuntu?
09:55:02 <Vorpal> LXDE?
09:55:07 <Vorpal> maybe I'll give that a try
09:55:07 <nortti> yes
09:55:12 <Vorpal> never used LXDE
09:55:23 <Vorpal> but I'm quite fond of Gnome 2, and xfce is almost as good
09:55:30 <nortti> http://kazehakasa.sourceforge.jp
09:55:35 <Vorpal> right
09:56:59 <nortti> oh. Line Mode Browser is still developed
09:57:06 <Vorpal> hm?
09:57:09 <Vorpal> what is that
09:58:00 <nortti> kinda like old lynx fused with ed
09:58:11 <nortti> second web browser ever developed
09:58:51 <Vorpal> hm
10:00:15 <nortti> also Amaya seems to be pretty light (w3c testbed browser)
10:01:39 <Vorpal> hm
10:01:47 <nortti> hmm. Dillo is still developed?
10:02:27 * Sgeo_ wonders in what circumstances command prefixes are not suitable alternatives to having closures
10:03:02 <mroman> PDAs can't have random memory access?
10:03:35 <mroman> Would that imply that it is impossible to do an arbitary effect at an arbitary point?
10:04:35 <mroman> Although if you have enough operations you can pop, put the element in a list, pop, add the element to the list
10:04:44 <mroman> and go back to any location of the stack, change it
10:04:50 <mroman> and deconstruct the list
10:04:55 <mroman> to reconstruct the stack
10:05:36 <mroman> That is, if you can have arbitary data on the stack, right?
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10:09:33 <Vorpal> <nortti> hmm. Dillo is still developed? <-- is it? nice
10:11:04 <nortti> still netsurf seems to be the best lightweight browser unless you are really into surfing the net with your 486 in which case I can recommend links2 from experience
10:11:20 <Vorpal> heh
10:11:49 <Vorpal> feature-wise it seems pretty limited though
10:11:55 <nortti> yeah
10:12:16 <nortti> but links2 is good enough for me as my main browser
10:12:18 <Vorpal> nortti, you know what I need? A desktop version of the mobile chrome browser
10:12:25 <nortti> why?
10:12:26 <Vorpal> that is pretty memory efficient iirc
10:12:34 <Vorpal> uses like 50 MB on phone
10:12:43 <Vorpal> while desktop chrome uses way more
10:12:44 <nortti> wow. so much?
10:12:55 <Vorpal> nortti, with a few tabs open yes
10:13:01 <nortti> wow
10:13:12 <Vorpal> few tabs = 10 or so
10:13:13 <nortti> browsers sure are bloated nowadays
10:13:28 <Vorpal> nortti, I do want HTML5 support and so on though
10:13:35 <Vorpal> because a lot of websites need it to be useful
10:14:12 <Vorpal> nortti, with 1 tab open (front page of xda-developers.com) it uses 31.52 MB
10:14:18 <nortti> http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/the-1-2kb-python-browser-script/
10:14:33 <nortti> there. it supports html5
10:15:12 <Vorpal> "But there are no tricks or gimmicks at work here, except to say that the browser is all of about 1.5Kb on disk, written in python and has webkit as its core." <-- except that I'm pretty sure webkit is larger than 1.5Kb
10:15:42 <nortti> yeah. only the size of browser script is counted
10:15:59 <Vorpal> not really fair
10:16:04 <Vorpal> chrome embeds webkit after all
10:16:18 <nortti> btw how can I measure memory use of program under linux
10:17:10 <nortti> Vorpal: or xxxterm
10:17:16 <Vorpal> what is that
10:17:29 <Vorpal> <nortti> btw how can I measure memory use of program under linux <-- I would use htop?
10:17:32 <Vorpal> or ps
10:17:36 <Vorpal> or top
10:17:40 <nortti> xxterm is webbrowser
10:17:42 <Vorpal> ah
10:17:49 <nortti> *xxxterm
10:18:14 <nortti> Vorpal: I mean in megabytes. htop only show percentages
10:18:30 <Vorpal> nortti, no?
10:18:36 <Vorpal> RES, VIRT and SHR
10:18:55 <nortti> what do they mean?
10:19:03 <Vorpal> well SHR is shared memory iirc
10:19:29 <nortti> 22460 10680 2212 S 0.0 17.9 0:01.81 links -g xda-developers.com
10:19:31 <Vorpal> RES is resident, VIRT is address space allocated (not same as memory allocated obviously on linux)
10:19:45 <Vorpal> nortti, bytes or kbytes I guess
10:19:49 <Vorpal> don't know the unit there
10:19:56 <nortti> kbytes
10:19:58 <Vorpal> and I can't see the column headers either
10:20:37 <nortti> VIRT RES SHR S CPU% MEM% TIME+ Command
10:20:51 <Vorpal> anyway, memory usage is complicated given that stuff like shared libraries (libc.so or whatever) will exist in one copy in memory, shared between all processes on the system using it
10:21:01 <Vorpal> well, except for .data and so on
10:21:09 <Vorpal> .text and .rodata segments will be shared
10:21:16 <nortti> Vorpal: I think that my links is staticaly linked
10:22:05 <Vorpal> nortti, VIRT is not really interesting. It tells you how much it has allocated (mmap or sbrk. NOT malloc. Your libc provides malloc which uses something like mmap or sbrk to allocate memory from the kernel)
10:22:26 <Vorpal> but linux won't actually allocate any physical memory to the program until the program tries to access said memory
10:22:41 <Vorpal> before that it only exists potentially
10:22:48 <nortti> so is SHR the right reading?
10:22:49 <Vorpal> nortti, thus VIRT is utterly useless for most purposes
10:23:08 <Vorpal> nortti, SHR is shared from what I remember. So that is not all that interesting
10:23:11 <nortti> also it was dynamicaly linked
10:23:20 * Madoka-Kaname hugs nortti
10:23:31 <nortti> Madoka-Kaname: why?
10:23:41 <Vorpal> anyway it is memory that is shared by more than one process, I'm not sure if that includes ro shared or just rw shared
10:23:43 <Madoka-Kaname> Because I like hugs.
10:23:47 <Vorpal> probably both
10:23:49 <nortti> Vorpal: what does RES mean?
10:23:52 <Vorpal> nortti, resident
10:24:02 <Vorpal> nortti, I'm trying to remember how to interpret that
10:24:26 <Vorpal> nortti, I don't remember if it includes mmaped files or not
10:24:30 <Vorpal> which makes a huge difference
10:24:50 <nortti> ok. also links is running on 1280x1024x32 framebuffer
10:25:06 <nortti> does that have any effect in RAM use?
10:25:08 <Vorpal> nortti, it might be that RES doesn't include swapped out stuff?
10:25:28 <Vorpal> nortti, the ps man page contains the following note:
10:25:30 <Vorpal> The SIZE and RSS fields don't count some parts of a process including the page tables, kernel stack, struct thread_info, and struct task_struct.
10:25:30 <Vorpal> This is usually at least 20 KiB of memory that is always resident. SIZE is the virtual size of the process (code+data+stack).
10:25:43 <Vorpal> not sure about htop
10:26:11 <Vorpal> but yeah, the virtual size will include pages you allocated but never touched
10:26:14 <Vorpal> which is common
10:26:26 <Vorpal> your libc is going to do that for pooling purposes
10:26:43 <Vorpal> the top man page:
10:26:45 <Vorpal> q: RES -- Resident size (kb)
10:26:45 <Vorpal> The non-swapped physical memory a task has used.
10:27:00 <Vorpal> also hm:
10:27:01 <Vorpal> o: VIRT -- Virtual Image (kb)
10:27:01 <Vorpal> The total amount of virtual memory used by the task. It includes all code, data and shared libraries plus pages that have been swapped out.
10:27:01 <Vorpal> VIRT = SWAP + RES.
10:27:01 <Vorpal> p: SWAP -- Swapped size (kb)
10:27:02 <Vorpal> The swapped out portion of a task's total virtual memory image.
10:27:17 <Vorpal> HOWEVER, I know for a fact that VIRT includes the untouched memory
10:27:24 <nortti> hmm..
10:27:42 <Vorpal> does that really go into RES?
10:27:53 <Vorpal> pretty sure it doesn't
10:28:05 <Vorpal> yeah it doesn't in htop at least
10:28:10 <Vorpal> 20555 arvid 20 0 858M 173M 39056 S 0.0 9.4 0:31.42 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox http://esolangs.org/wiki/Burlesque
10:28:21 <Vorpal> see, 858M VIRT, 173M RES
10:28:59 <nortti> well I can at least say that running 4 instances of links2 with Xvesa on Pentium 100MHz with 40MB of RAM works fine
10:29:16 <Vorpal> 20555 9.4 858m 685m 173m 68 364m 38m 326 0 S 20 0 2 firefox
10:29:27 <Vorpal> err
10:29:29 <Vorpal> PID %MEM VIRT SWAP RES CODE DATA SHR nFLT nDRT S PR NI %CPU COMMAND
10:29:29 <Vorpal> 20555 9.4 858m 685m 173m 68 364m 38m 326 0 S 20 0 1 firefox
10:29:30 <Vorpal> there
10:29:34 <Vorpal> from top
10:29:36 <nortti> wow
10:29:51 <Vorpal> however, that SWAP includes stuff not actually swapped out
10:29:58 <nortti> what?
10:30:02 <Vorpal> because my total swap usage is 214 MB
10:30:12 <Vorpal> according to free -m
10:30:15 <nortti> oh come the fucking on
10:30:28 <Taneb> Right, I now have a computer
10:30:33 <Taneb> Now to find some OS's
10:30:39 <Vorpal> nortti, I think SWAP there includes swapped out stuff and also the allocated but not actually ever used stuff
10:30:54 <nortti> Taneb: haiku, syllable, netbsd
10:30:55 <itidus21> Taneb: does your computer have an adder circuit?
10:31:14 <Vorpal> nortti, yes memory usage under Linux is /complex/
10:31:26 <Vorpal> now you know that
10:31:31 <nortti> ok
10:32:05 <Vorpal> nortti, for a single process just reading /proc/<pid>/maps and adding up the relevant segments might be saner :P
10:32:33 <Vorpal> $ cat /proc/20555/maps | wc -l
10:32:33 <Vorpal> 752
10:32:35 <Vorpal> that is firefox
10:32:36 <Vorpal> lol
10:32:44 <Vorpal> a /LOT/ of mmaped stuff
10:33:14 <Vorpal> lets filter out ro mappings
10:34:04 <Vorpal> hrrm
10:34:28 <Taneb> itidus21, quite possibly!
10:34:47 <nortti> juhani@T20-slitaz$ cat /proc/5337/maps | wc -l
10:34:47 <nortti> 42
10:34:49 <Vorpal> it shares most libraries with other apps, but some of them only firefox uses
10:34:54 <fizzie> hkallasj@valdieu:~ cat /proc/737/maps | wc -l
10:34:55 <nortti> that is links
10:34:55 <fizzie> 869
10:35:02 <fizzie> That's also a Firefox.
10:35:11 <Vorpal> nortti, that doesn't tell you the amount of memory, just number of mapped regions
10:35:29 <Vorpal> 7fc4fcc87000-7fc4fce86000 ---p 00018000 fc:00 22921 /lib/libpthread-2.11.1.so
10:35:34 <Vorpal> what is the point of THAT mapping?
10:35:36 <nortti> juhani@T20-slitaz$ cat /proc/5451/maps | wc -l
10:35:36 <nortti> 126
10:35:41 <nortti> that is hv3
10:35:42 <Vorpal> a private mapping with no permissions
10:35:42 <Vorpal> why
10:35:57 <Vorpal> nortti, the interesting bit is really the size of the allocations
10:36:14 <fizzie> Sometimes there are ---p guard pages, I suppose.
10:36:34 <Vorpal> 7fc4e3c70000-7fc4e3c80000 rwxp 00000000 00:00 0 <-- oooh I think firefox is JITing something eh?
10:36:40 <fizzie> It's not like the mapping costs much, and it catches writes before they go mungle something else.
10:37:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, right
10:37:09 <fizzie> Could be something completely different too.
10:37:26 <Vorpal> $ cat /proc/20555/maps | grep -Ev '[-r]-[-x][sp]' | wc -l
10:37:26 <Vorpal> 238
10:37:26 <fizzie> That one for example is a bit big.
10:37:43 <fizzie> (For a guard page, I mean.)
10:37:52 <Vorpal> what size is it
10:37:55 <fizzie> I saw a few single-page ---p nameless things.
10:37:56 <Vorpal> too lazy to calculate that
10:38:05 <fizzie> The 00018000 is the size, isn't it?
10:38:11 <Vorpal> oh right
10:38:28 <nortti> with my os I'm going to have this syscall: therealgoddamnedmemoryuse(PID)
10:38:33 <fizzie> Or maybe not.
10:38:39 <fizzie> It just seemd to be in the right ballpark.
10:38:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, so 24 pages?
10:38:48 <Vorpal> hm
10:39:09 <fizzie> Oh, it's the offset field.
10:39:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway it could be that the kernel has that mmaped to the process but the process hasn't yet used it
10:39:13 <fizzie> For files.
10:39:16 <Vorpal> oh okay
10:39:22 <Vorpal> so not the size then
10:39:25 <fizzie> Right.
10:39:40 <fizzie> ~ cat /proc/737/maps | grep -c rwx
10:39:40 <fizzie> 76
10:39:45 <fizzie> Quite a lot of rwx in there too.
10:39:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, if you put it as no access you are going to get a page fault on access, thus you can map it lazily
10:39:54 <fizzie> Software these days, so complicated.
10:40:04 <Vorpal> I guess that could be what is going on
10:40:06 <fizzie> Yes, it could be that.
10:40:23 <nortti> with links:
10:40:24 <nortti> juhani@T20-slitaz$ cat /proc/5337/maps | grep -c rwx
10:40:24 <nortti> 1
10:40:37 <Vorpal> nortti, the conclusion is that calculating memory usage on Linux (or any modern OS) is utterly hard
10:41:50 <Vorpal> what... firefox has no [heap
10:41:53 <Vorpal> [heap]
10:41:55 <Vorpal> how does that work
10:42:06 <Vorpal> what the crap
10:42:22 <Vorpal> does firefox not use sbrk? And bypass glibc malloc?
10:42:40 <Vorpal> I would assume glibc performs some internal allocations using sbrk at least
10:42:42 <Vorpal> how weird
10:42:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, go figure that out ^
10:43:39 <Vorpal> hm all the low address mappings are weird for firefox compared to other processes
10:43:41 <fizzie> I'm guessing something related to their portability layers, but I'm no FF developer.
10:43:54 <Vorpal> $ cat /proc/$$/maps
10:43:54 <Vorpal> 00400000-004db000 r-xp 00000000 fc:00 3255 /bin/bash
10:43:54 <Vorpal> [...]
10:44:04 <Vorpal> firefox:
10:44:06 <Vorpal> 7fc4c2a00000-7fc4c2c00000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0
10:44:10 <Vorpal> is the lowest one
10:44:32 <fizzie> I've got a couple usual ones in my Firefox process.
10:44:33 <fizzie> 00400000-00410000 r-xp 00000000 fd:00 1194314 /usr/lib64/firefox/firefox
10:44:36 <Vorpal> in fact firefox itself:
10:44:37 <fizzie> 00610000-00611000 rw-p 00010000 fd:00 1194314 /usr/lib64/firefox/firefox
10:44:38 <Vorpal> 7fc4fd0ae000-7fc4fd0bf000 r-xp 00000000 fc:00 430071 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox
10:44:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, which version of firefox is that?
10:45:00 <Vorpal> 14.0.1 here
10:45:27 <fizzie> The about window says "Firefox ESR 10.0.6", I don't have a clue what that means.
10:45:31 <fizzie> Older, anyway.
10:45:51 <Deewiant> 00400000-00417000 r-xp 00000000 08:03 2914597 /usr/lib/firefox-beta/firefox
10:45:51 <fizzie> You can get a fancy memory allocation tree thing on Firefox with about:memory.
10:45:52 <Deewiant> 00616000-00617000 rw-p 00016000 08:03 2914597 /usr/lib/firefox-beta/firefox
10:46:25 <Vorpal> 144 MB
10:46:30 <Vorpal> 81 MB for js
10:46:46 <Vorpal> 14 MB for sqlite...
10:46:50 <Deewiant> about:memory?verbose for more detail
10:47:34 <Vorpal> pressing the "minimize memory usage" button at the bottom made it 133 MB
10:48:00 <Vorpal> and loading that verbose version made it 146 MB
10:48:13 <Vorpal> and I only have 8 tabs open
10:48:20 <Vorpal> not very heavy pages either
10:48:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "heap-unclassified" memory is apparently called 'dark matter' by Firefox people.
10:48:32 <Vorpal> hm can I see if any addons uses a lot of memory?
10:48:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, dark matter eh?
10:48:41 <Vorpal> what is it then
10:48:52 <fizzie> I don't know, and maybe they don't either. :p
10:48:58 <Vorpal> and that is 32 MB approx
10:49:26 <fizzie> Things that don't have proper about:memory "reporters", apparently.
10:49:46 <fizzie> 77.40 MB (28.44%) -- heap-unclassified
10:49:58 <Vorpal> compartment([System Principal], 0x7fc4e9ff1000) uses the majority
10:50:06 <Vorpal> this is under js
10:50:09 <Vorpal> 46 MB
10:50:12 <Vorpal> single largest post
10:50:33 <Vorpal> hm a post under that called gc-heap is 32 MB
10:51:08 <Vorpal> 31 MB when I closed all the other tabs
10:51:42 <Vorpal> I would like to know what "System Principal" is
10:52:50 <Vorpal> libxul (whatever that is) has a massive .text segment it seems
10:52:57 <Vorpal> 18 MB
10:53:07 <Taneb> Is the a Haskell Platform for Haiku?
10:53:11 <fizzie> XUL is the user interface stuff Firefox uses.
10:53:37 <Vorpal> ah
10:53:47 <fizzie> XML User Interface Language.
10:53:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, s/the/there/?
10:53:51 <Vorpal> ouch
10:53:55 <Vorpal> why not XUIL
10:53:58 <Taneb> Vorpal, yes
10:54:01 <fizzie> Maybe it was taken.
10:54:04 <fizzie> It rings a bell.
10:54:08 <Taneb> Maybe the U stands for UI
10:54:31 <nortti> imho XUL suck. I am still bit angry at mozilla discotinuing gecko embedding
10:55:33 <fizzie> There are all kinds of "there is only XUL" jokes.
10:55:37 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
10:55:43 <nortti> like?
10:55:52 <fizzie> XUL's XML namespace URI is http://www.mozilla.org/keymaster/gatekeeper/there.is.only.xul for example.
10:56:01 <nortti> :P
10:56:07 <Vorpal> hm it did list one of the addons in that memory list (noscript) but that was just 6 kb
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10:56:21 <nortti> > keymaster/gatekeeper
10:56:22 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `keymaster'Not in scope: `gatekeeper'
10:56:38 <Vorpal> oh wait, there are two entries for noscript, so ~300 KB
10:57:08 <Vorpal> yeah the total of the addon related stuff listed there is less than 5 MB
10:57:09 <fizzie> It says "There is no data. There is only XUL!" if you actually HTTP-fetch that.
10:57:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, ouch
10:58:55 <spirity> XUL (pronounced "zool")
10:58:58 <spirity> ....wot
10:59:05 <spirity> since when do x's make a z sound?
10:59:07 <nortti> :P
10:59:28 <fizzie> The pronunciation is also part of the joke.
10:59:46 <spirity> I don't get it.
10:59:59 <nortti> spirity: never watched ghostbusters?
11:00:02 <fizzie> It's a reference to the "There is no Dana, only Zuul" line.
11:00:04 <fizzie> In that.
11:00:13 <Vorpal> btw, mobile firefox is a joke on a phone with 1 GB RAM. It works. Barely
11:00:21 <spirity> oh. okay.
11:00:34 <Vorpal> but you end up with so much other stuff getting killed by the system so everything gets slow when switching apps
11:00:42 <nortti> Vorpal: wow. microb works on n810
11:00:47 <Vorpal> nortti, microb?
11:00:51 <Taneb> spirity, never seen a xylophone?
11:01:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, what was "zuul"?
11:01:20 <nortti> Vorpal: or was it micro-b. the meamo browser based on gecko and hildon
11:01:25 <Vorpal> nortti, ah
11:01:30 <spirity> Taneb: what are those?
11:01:33 <fizzie> nortti: It's MicroB.
11:01:36 <Vorpal> nortti, what is n810? I thought it was n900?
11:01:40 <Taneb> Musical instrument
11:01:46 <Taneb> Percussion-y keyboard-y
11:01:47 <fizzie> Vorpal: Those are the predecessor non-phone tablets.
11:01:51 <Vorpal> ah
11:01:51 <Taneb> You hit bits of metal with sticks
11:02:12 <nortti> Vorpal: nokia produced four maemo devices. 770, n800, n810 and n900
11:02:12 <fizzie> And Firefox itself seemed to work passably on the N900 (which has 256M of RAM) last I tried.
11:02:17 <Vorpal> nortti, ah
11:02:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, firefox used to work better on this laptop too
11:02:45 <Vorpal> I think modern firefox is more bloated than a few versions ago
11:03:01 <nortti> true
11:04:01 <Deewiant> http://www.areweslimyet.com/
11:04:29 <nortti> it especialy shows when you do same kind of switch like I did. (Bon Echo+patches -> TenFourFox 4) My computer was so much faster but browser was a bit _slower_
11:04:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: I read that at least thrice as "are we slime yet".
11:04:45 <Vorpal> nortti, hm?
11:05:07 <nortti> Bon Echo=Firefox 2
11:05:23 <nortti> TenFourFox 4=Firefox 4
11:05:39 <nortti> oh. I did that switch in 2011
11:05:46 <nortti> summer
11:06:50 <Vorpal> ah
11:07:34 <nortti> well actually the Bon Echo I used was based on Iceweasel 2 but the difference isn't that big
11:07:34 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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11:08:00 <Vorpal> Deewiant, what is that TP5?
11:08:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: It does have a FAQ button.
11:08:13 <Vorpal> ah right
11:08:18 <fizzie> (It's 100 popular pages selected from Alexa top 500.)
11:08:44 <fizzie> (Scrubbed to be self-contained and so on.)
11:10:34 <Vorpal> "But if Firefox has freed all the memory it allocated during the test, why is it using more memory after the test? Our data shows that most of the difference is due to heap fragmentation. Before the test, all the objects on our heap are tightly packed. But after the test, our heap uses twice as much space for the same amount of storage, because the objects on the heap now have gaps between them." <-- so
11:10:34 <Vorpal> use a compacting GC...
11:11:47 <fizzie> What, with C++?
11:13:47 <fizzie> "This is all well and good, but my Firefox still leaks like a sieve" is the best FAQ.
11:14:03 <nortti> :P
11:14:07 <Deewiant> It's also probably the most FAQ.
11:15:06 <Sgeo_> Silverfish are a thing that actually exists?
11:16:26 <Vorpal> firefox doesn't exactly leak I think... It just uses a lot of memory. The amount doesn't increase that much over time, only a bit
11:16:39 <itidus21> yes, but you can't get your omega 3 from them
11:16:57 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, yes but they are not fish as such
11:17:04 <Vorpal> some sort of bugs
11:17:10 <Vorpal> check wp
11:17:27 <Vorpal> oh insects
11:17:53 <itidus21> i like my reference
11:18:12 <itidus21> to the way fish is sold as a provider of omega 3
11:18:40 <Vorpal> took a look on what chrome on my desktop uses. 1.6 GB "private memory" (I'm booted to windows atm, I have no clue how the memory works under that)
11:18:57 <Vorpal> wait, misread, 165 MB
11:18:58 <Vorpal> XD
11:19:06 <Vorpal> or wait a second
11:19:09 <nortti> :P
11:19:27 <Vorpal> well 175 MB is what windows task manager claims in the private column
11:19:46 <itidus21> oh no, it's both 165mb and 1.6gb in a quantum superposition
11:19:59 <Vorpal> 1,633,060k is what chrome claims under chrome://memory-redirect (redirect? what?)
11:20:09 <nortti> ...
11:20:52 <Vorpal> I have about 30 tabs or so open. Some quite heavy pages
11:21:06 <itidus21> my advice is get comfortable with browser-refreshing, and deprioritizing open tabs.
11:21:16 <Vorpal> itidus21, what?
11:21:26 <nortti> deprioritizing tabs?
11:21:30 <Vorpal> itidus21, anyway on my desktop even 1.6 GB would be a non-issue
11:21:36 <fizzie> "chrome://memory
11:21:38 <fizzie> This will redirect to “chrome://memory-redirect/”."
11:21:40 <itidus21> by browser refreshing i mean closing a browser, and opening it again
11:21:40 <fizzie> That's kinda weird.
11:21:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, so does about:memory in chrome
11:21:49 <nortti> hmm
11:21:52 <Vorpal> the issue is firefox on my laptop
11:21:57 <Vorpal> with 2 GB RAM
11:22:14 <Vorpal> my desktop with 16 GB RAM... I just don't care if my browser is using a GB RAM or not
11:22:15 <itidus21> and by deprioritizing open tabs i mean, occasionally go through your tabs and close the unnecessary ones
11:22:57 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, well, http://sprunge.us/hcYF
11:23:16 <Vorpal> ouch
11:23:21 <Vorpal> $ free -m
11:23:22 <Vorpal> total used free shared buffers cached
11:23:22 <Vorpal> Mem: 1838 1044 793 0 47 381
11:23:22 <Vorpal> -/+ buffers/cache: 615 1223
11:23:22 <Vorpal> Swap: 2045 214 1830
11:23:23 <Vorpal> on my laptop
11:23:24 <fizzie> I once made a mistake of accidentally starting up MATLAB locally on this box. I barely lived to tell the tale.
11:23:30 <Vorpal> heh
11:23:45 <fizzie> Maybe I should just run the browser on some other computer too, really.
11:23:53 <nortti> Vorpal: well try these: Kazehakase, Amaya, xxxterm and http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2010/05/24/the-1-2kb-python-browser-script/
11:23:58 <Vorpal> wait, why do I have 2045 MB swap?
11:24:17 <fizzie> The box I run MATLAB at the moment has 48G of memory, I'm sure nobody would notice even a Firefox.
11:24:45 <Vorpal> /dev/sda2 193 205 98280 83 Linux
11:24:45 <Vorpal> Partition 2 does not end on cylinder boundary.
11:24:46 <fizzie> Admittedly it has 46G of those in use.
11:24:47 <Vorpal> interesting
11:24:53 <Vorpal> it doesn't?
11:24:58 <nortti> hmm
11:25:03 <Vorpal> and why is that important...
11:25:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
11:25:30 <Vorpal> 3 1680MB 3824MB 2144MB primary linux-swap(v1)
11:25:31 <Vorpal> okay?
11:25:38 <Vorpal> that last MB number is the size
11:25:40 <Vorpal> from parted
11:25:57 <Vorpal> is this a 1000 vs. 1024 thingy?
11:26:04 <itidus21> seems my firefox mem use is constantly creeping up nonstop
11:26:21 <Vorpal> itidus21, slowly or quickly?
11:26:34 <itidus21> slowly... 4kb at a time
11:26:36 <Vorpal> itidus21, use about:memory and the buttons at the bottom
11:26:51 <Vorpal> and that is one page at a time
11:27:22 <Vorpal> hm how do you setup a compiler toolchain to compile native android programs. Like command line tools...
11:27:46 <Deewiant> Vorpal: https://developer.android.com/tools/sdk/ndk/index.html
11:28:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I thought that could only do *.so for JNI stuff?
11:29:14 <Deewiant> I do not know
11:31:04 <Vorpal> what was the name of that software that allowed you to connect to existing X11 sessions
11:31:06 <Vorpal> hm
11:31:12 <fizzie> I'm under the impression that http://source.android.com/ have a prebuilt toolchain, and in any case the source distribution should have everything necessary.
11:31:55 <fizzie> It may be somewhat more involved than just doing regular Android development or using the NDK.
11:31:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I recently checked that out to find a specific stock icon... Wow did it take ages...
11:32:10 <Vorpal> 16 GB or something like that IIRC
11:32:18 <Vorpal> removed the source tree after I was done
11:33:02 <Vorpal> it claims it is 6 GB, I guess git is to blame for the extra bulk
11:33:30 <Vorpal> "For Gingerbread (2.3.x) and newer versions, including the master branch, a 64-bit environment is required. Older versions can be compiled on 32-bit systems." heh, why
11:33:47 <Vorpal> and you need the sun jdk specifically?
11:33:49 <Vorpal> wow
11:34:13 <kmc> Vorpal: look at $ndk_root/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh
11:34:20 <Vorpal> ah thanks
11:35:34 <Taneb> Okay, I accidentally installed a copy of Rome: Total War on my Haiku memory stick
11:36:07 <nortti> :P
11:36:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: Can you even run plain old regular native apps on those things?
11:36:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, from a shell? sure
11:36:52 <Vorpal> there are terminal emulators for it, and you can use adb shell from a computer to connect to it
11:37:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is by default a somewhat crippled environment. I installed busybox by doing cat /mnt/sdcard/busybox > /system/xbin/busybox because there was no cp
11:37:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, how?
11:37:39 <nortti> but if you are coding native apps for android remember that bionic libc is broken
11:38:01 <Vorpal> nortti, well I just wanted to compile a few useful tools
11:38:11 <nortti> Vorpal: like?
11:38:12 <Vorpal> such as an scp, maybe a dropbox one or something
11:38:15 <Vorpal> err
11:38:17 <Vorpal> dropbear*
11:38:24 <fizzie> Busybear.
11:38:31 <nortti> Vorpal: you can try statical linking
11:38:37 <Vorpal> sure
11:38:39 <nortti> Pedobear.
11:38:47 <Vorpal> there is the dropbear ssh server
11:38:53 <Vorpal> don't know if it provides a client
11:39:04 <fizzie> Dropbear has a client too IIRC.
11:39:08 <Vorpal> I suspect openssh's scp would be painful to get to work
11:39:09 <nortti> I think it does
11:39:32 <nortti> I had ssh on this computer when I only had dropbear installed
11:39:37 <Taneb> Vorpal, the thingy I was writing the image doesn't like writing images, and prefers to write copies of CD's?
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11:39:50 <Vorpal> Taneb, ?
11:40:07 <Taneb> The image writer copied the CD I had in onto the memory stick instead of the ISO
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11:40:32 <Vorpal> I see
11:41:15 <fizzie> I should probably install 'less' on the phone one day, it's so often I try to |less accidentally.
11:41:32 <nortti> doesn't android have more?
11:41:44 <fizzie> I don't know what Android has.
11:41:54 <fizzie> I have a 'more', but I often try 'less' instead.
11:41:59 <nortti> oh. you have maemo
11:42:05 <fizzie> Yes, it's a N900.
11:42:05 <Vorpal> nortti, nope!
11:42:18 <nortti> at least meamo has busybox
11:42:18 <Vorpal> I symlinked less to my copy of busybox of course
11:42:32 <Vorpal> which is busybox with mostly everything in it
11:42:47 <fizzie> Possibly my aversion to 'more' is leftover paranoia from a DOS box where MORE.COM rebooted the computer.
11:42:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, it did?
11:43:01 <fizzie> It was somehow broken.
11:43:05 <nortti> Vorpal: does installing busybox require rooting the phone
11:43:06 <Vorpal> anyway more is inferior to less
11:43:06 <fizzie> It doesn't normally.
11:43:43 <Vorpal> nortti, no, but you need to put the executable somewhere that has proper permissions (so not fat32 sdcard...)
11:43:54 <Taneb> How do you get the CLI on an android?
11:44:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, adb shell on the computer? adb is a program from the SDK
11:44:16 <Taneb> Okay
11:44:20 <Vorpal> or you use an on-phone terminal emulator, there are a bunch of open source one on the market
11:44:37 <Vorpal> nortti, non-root adb shell does however not have write access to any such location!
11:44:43 <Taneb> You know, if your right hand is too far to the right when you type "Okay", you get "Play"
11:44:46 <Vorpal> so you use a terminal emulator on the phone
11:44:56 <Vorpal> and put busybox in the private app dir of that app
11:45:02 <Vorpal> and then make it world readable
11:45:07 <Vorpal> and possibly writable
11:45:13 <Vorpal> then you can use it from adb shell
11:45:16 <nortti> ok
11:45:49 <fizzie> There's a busybox in my VDSL2 modem (a GPL violation, in fact, I believe) that's really crappy. It's almost like they haven't designed it for shell use. (They haven't.)
11:45:53 <Vorpal> then I rooted my phone and just put it in the path instead
11:46:02 <Vorpal> much more convenient
11:46:34 <Vorpal> Taneb, wait, which hand do you use for y?
11:46:42 <Taneb> Left
11:46:45 <nortti> Vorpal: what terminal emulator should I use? where is the private app dir?
11:46:49 <Vorpal> Taneb, I use my right hand for that
11:46:57 <Vorpal> since it is on the right half of the keyboard
11:47:03 <Taneb> I never really learnt to type properly?
11:47:06 <Vorpal> ah
11:47:29 <Vorpal> nortti, well, I used the one called "Terminal Emulator" XD
11:47:54 <nortti> :P
11:48:07 <nortti> Vorpal: where is the app dir located?
11:48:10 <Vorpal> sec
11:48:22 <Vorpal> nortti, oh it is "Android Terminal Emulator" on google play
11:48:26 <nortti> ok
11:48:27 <Vorpal> blue icon
11:48:32 <nortti> kay
11:48:51 <Vorpal> nortti, and /data/data/jackpal.androidterm/
11:48:59 <Vorpal> for that one
11:49:06 <Vorpal> nortti, for a different one the last bit will vary of course
11:49:13 <nortti> ok
11:49:17 <Vorpal> since that is the package name of the app
11:49:49 <nortti> I use sl4a or connectbot as my terminal emulator
11:49:54 <Vorpal> nortti, there is a dedicated "install busybox" app on the market too, haven't used it myself
11:50:00 <nortti> ok
11:50:04 <Vorpal> nortti, you could do the same for connectbot (which I also use, for ssh)
11:50:09 <Vorpal> just a different package name?
11:50:15 <nortti> ok
11:50:26 <Vorpal> let me check what it is, I have the code open in eclipse (wrote a patch for connectbot today)
11:50:51 <Vorpal> org.connectbot apparently
11:51:26 <Vorpal> nortti, does connectbot have sdcard access permissions though?
11:51:33 <nortti> no idea
11:51:36 <Vorpal> oh yes it does
11:51:39 <Vorpal> well my copy does anyway
11:51:44 <Vorpal> but that is git head
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11:52:25 <Vorpal> nortti, I got my busybox copy from the S3 root toolkit files. Seemed easiest at the time
11:53:01 <Vorpal> most pointless HTML file ever: /opt/android-ndk-r8b/docs/OVERVIEW.html
11:53:10 <Vorpal> it is just a text file wrapped in <pre>
11:53:10 <Vorpal> XD
11:53:29 <nortti> :P
11:53:56 <Vorpal> there is no non-html version though
11:57:00 <mroman> Everything has to be html, don't you know that ;)
11:57:32 <mroman> OSses of the future are just a kernel and a browser .
11:57:48 <nortti> do not want
11:58:02 <mroman> Future does not care what you want ;)
11:58:14 <Vorpal> NDK_DIR=`dirname $0`
11:58:14 <Vorpal> NDK_DIR=`dirname $NDK_DIR`
11:58:14 <Vorpal> NDK_DIR=`dirname $NDK_DIR`
11:58:15 <Vorpal> ouch
11:58:44 <nortti> mroman: I'll build my OWN computer with µcontrollers!
11:58:45 <Vorpal> this won't work when invoked with a relative path I think
11:58:47 <Vorpal> ouch
11:59:14 <Vorpal> nortti, wirebonding and TTL logic?
11:59:29 <nortti> yes
11:59:43 <Vorpal> err not wirebonding
11:59:46 <Vorpal> that is the wrong word
11:59:48 <AnotherTest> (01:13:04 PM) fizzie: What, with C++? <- C++11 allows GC
11:59:53 <nortti> wirewrapping?
12:00:02 <Vorpal> nortti, yes that is it
12:00:14 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, compacting GC?
12:00:16 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, HOW?
12:01:01 <Vorpal> anyway I think you could include a GC in C/C++... The compiler has to embed type information though so you can know what is a pointer and what isn't
12:01:21 <Vorpal> and it would still be easy to break it by doing stuff many programs do but which isn't strictly conforming
12:01:41 <fizzie> People actually use that Boehm GC sometimes, I believe.
12:01:52 <fizzie> It's one of the conservative guesswork mostly-works ones.
12:02:38 <fizzie> "However C++11 adds a few restrictions to implementations so that some behavior that would prevent garbage collection to work is now disallowed. This includes in particular common ways to "hide" pointers from a possible garbage collector, like applying xor to it."
12:02:44 <AnotherTest> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2011/n3242.pdf
12:02:44 <fizzie> Yeah, I recall they did something like that.
12:02:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, boehm gc is not compacting
12:02:52 <fizzie> Vorpal: I didn't say it was.
12:03:06 <fizzie> You just said "include a GC".
12:03:14 <Vorpal> right
12:03:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, I meant a compacting one
12:03:23 <Vorpal> that is actually not slow
12:03:36 <Vorpal> I used boehm, it is slow
12:03:50 <Vorpal> old versions of cfunge supported it as an option
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12:04:27 <fizzie> A 1334-page PDF is the best response to a question like that.
12:05:02 <AnotherTest> It's a working paper for the standard
12:05:22 <Vorpal> I'm however 99% sure that cfunge has no actual memory leaks. There are some stuff that will never shrink due to poor fingerprint design or the stuff being kept around in a pool for the future, but no actual leaks.
12:07:06 <AnotherTest> http://www2.research.att.com/~bs/C++0xFAQ.html#gc-abi
12:07:17 <AnotherTest> is probably a better answer
12:08:45 <Vorpal> " There are legitimate reasons to disguise pointers (e.g. the xor trick in exceptionally memory-constrained applications), but not as many as some programmers think. "
12:08:50 <Vorpal> what xor trick?
12:09:02 <Vorpal> and why would it help with memory-constrained applications
12:09:07 <olsner> Vorpal: the xor trick
12:09:30 <Vorpal> olsner, yes
12:09:32 <Vorpal> what is that
12:09:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: You can do a doubly-linked list with just one pointer.
12:10:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh, nice
12:10:06 <Vorpal> right
12:10:11 <fizzie> Vorpal: Assuming you always know one of the neighbours, the one you're coming from.
12:10:34 <Vorpal> well obviously
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12:11:05 <fizzie> It also means if you give someone a plain "Node*" they can't iterate in either direction, of course.
12:11:10 <fizzie> But them's the breaks.
12:11:26 <Vorpal> indeed
12:11:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, kind of useful in some embedded systems I guess
12:12:01 <fizzie> I haven't seen it live, but it's quite often mentioned as an example in these discussions.
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12:13:17 <Vorpal> nortti, you were putting busybox on your phone?
12:13:21 <Vorpal> nortti, how did that work out?
12:13:23 <fizzie> You can remove the pointer overhead by as much just by unrolling two (or more by unrolling a few more) list elements in a single node, anyway.
12:13:35 <fizzie> s/remove/lower/ or whatever.
12:13:37 -!- Jafet has joined.
12:13:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, true
12:13:44 <fizzie> Reduce is the word I was thinking of, probably.
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12:15:12 <Vorpal> huh, now MTP started working under linux
12:15:16 <Vorpal> when I started rythmbox
12:15:18 <Vorpal> wow
12:15:43 <Vorpal> not that it started working /IN/ rythmbox, no it opened nautilus with the phone
12:15:50 <Vorpal> err the phone with nautilus
12:16:07 <Vorpal> and it only shows the content after I close rythmbox
12:21:14 <mroman> AnotherTest: You can generate fibonacci sequence by chaining ^^++[+[-
12:21:34 <mroman> blsq ) {2 3}{^^++[+[-}e!
12:21:35 <mroman> {3 5}
12:22:00 <mroman> blsq ) {2 3}{^^++[+[-}2.*\[e!
12:22:01 <mroman> {5 8}
12:22:29 <AnotherTest> :)
12:22:57 <Sgeo_> `run tclsh
12:23:07 <HackEgo> bash: tclsh: command not found
12:23:19 <mroman> blsq ) {0 1}{^^++[+[-}9.*\[e!-]
12:23:20 <mroman> 34
12:23:26 <mroman> ^- 9th fibonacci number
12:23:43 <mroman> blsq ) {0 1}{^^++[+[-}10.*\[e!-]
12:23:44 <mroman> 55
12:23:50 <mroman> ^- 10th fibonacci number and so on.
12:24:55 <mroman> It calculates the sum of the list, appends to sum to the list, and removes the first element of the list.
12:25:06 <mroman> *the sum to
12:25:26 <AnotherTest> how would you calculate a square root?
12:26:51 <mroman> blsq ) 1{1.+}{^^.*81==1.-}w!
12:26:51 <mroman> 9
12:27:18 <mroman> increment it, duplicate, multiply, compare with the number
12:27:25 <AnotherTest> We could use that to generate the nth fibonacci number
12:27:43 <mroman> for(i=1;i*i != 81;i++)
12:27:56 <fizzie> Hey, no wonder this box is slow; a gigabyte of memory, and someone else has a full gnome desktop also running in a Xvnc on it.
12:28:06 <mroman> 1.- is the not, here :)
12:28:11 <mroman> although it's not really a not of course.
12:29:35 <Madoka-Kaname> What kind of a language is that?
12:30:01 <Vorpal> <mroman> increment it, duplicate, multiply, compare with the number <-- that sounds like a slow square root implementation
12:30:16 <mroman> Vorpal: Indeed.
12:30:24 <Vorpal> mroman, besides what will it do when the square root is not an integer?
12:30:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, talk to them about it?
12:31:02 <mroman> Stlang has a sqrt builtin, so Burlesque get's one too
12:31:22 <mroman> It's just not available *yet*.
12:31:25 <Vorpal> I see
12:31:33 <AnotherTest> mroman: if you can round, fibonacci would get really easy
12:31:38 <Vorpal> anyway how is sqrt normally done on real hardware?
12:31:43 <Vorpal> floating point sqrt that is
12:31:46 <AnotherTest> You could just use the formula
12:31:54 <AnotherTest> Vorpal:
12:32:01 <AnotherTest> My calculator uses newton's method
12:32:05 <Vorpal> hm okay
12:32:08 <AnotherTest> I think
12:32:16 <Vorpal> what does glibc do
12:32:22 <mroman> The newton tangens thingy?
12:32:31 <Vorpal> I'm not familiar with that one
12:32:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't know who it is.
12:32:53 <mroman> AnotherTest: round floats?
12:33:06 <fizzie> I mean, I know the user name of course, but I hardly know anyone here.
12:33:07 <AnotherTest> mroman: yes, for Fibonacci
12:33:30 <mroman> The tails/replicate version works, but will get slower of course :)
12:33:49 <mroman> I'd need to add Floats first :)
12:33:56 <AnotherTest> ah okay
12:34:01 <mroman> But
12:34:08 <mroman> Gimme 10 minutes and it's done :D
12:34:24 <AnotherTest> also, could you make integers that can be larger
12:34:30 <AnotherTest> like haskell's Integer
12:34:36 <mroman> I could switch to Integer
12:35:05 <AnotherTest> because ri^^{\/^^.+\/1.-}{}w!vv with 100000 gives me 0
12:35:45 <AnotherTest> and 31 gives me
12:35:51 <AnotherTest> -2147483648
12:36:03 <AnotherTest> which both look like an overflow :(
12:36:10 <mroman> Yes.
12:36:12 <mroman> Int is bounded.
12:37:29 <mroman> although certain haskell functions onyl take Int
12:37:42 <mroman> so If I use Integer I have to "downsize" it to Int for some functions
12:38:17 <Vorpal> mroman, or avoid those functions
12:38:30 <Vorpal> implementing replacements for them
12:38:47 <mroman> or that, yes.
12:39:39 <AnotherTest> mroman: I'm writing HELP (Handy esoteric language preprocessed) for blsq :D
12:39:58 <AnotherTest> *preprocessor
12:42:26 <mroman> Doesn't Data.List have generic functions
12:42:30 <mroman> which work on Integral stuff.
12:43:05 <mroman> ah
12:43:08 <mroman> genericTake
12:47:26 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/commit/0fe0340d664617e65fc3f92a2555485c24ed7a48 <- Integer
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12:58:48 <Vorpal> hm NEON registers are mapped into the same memory as the FPU registers on ARM
12:58:48 <Vorpal> ouch
12:58:51 <Vorpal> that is like MMX
12:58:53 <Vorpal> terrible
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12:59:41 <mroman> blsq ) 81.0 0.5 **
12:59:42 <mroman> 9.0
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13:18:55 <mroman> AnotherTest: blsq ) 3.1459 3 r_
13:18:55 <mroman> 3.146
13:19:18 <mroman> Does HELP support #define,#include stuff?
13:19:58 <nortti> Vorpal: I haven't tried it yet
13:21:59 <AnotherTest> mroman: so far it's a simple macro preprocessor, I plan to add more features such as #include
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13:24:27 <AnotherTest> mroman: eventually it should have much more than cpp
13:24:47 <mroman> using the closed fibonacci formula is not really practical on any physical machine :)
13:24:56 <mroman> it diverges pretty soon.
13:25:05 <mroman> somewhere around 40
13:25:21 <AnotherTest> :(
13:25:33 <mroman> What did you expect?
13:25:36 <Vorpal> nortti, ah
13:25:43 <mroman> cpus have limited precision.
13:26:21 <Vorpal> nortti, I'm going to work on getting various useful tools compiled for my phone. If you want copies once I get them working I will happily share if your ABI is compatible
13:26:33 <Vorpal> I'm going for ARMv7 with NEON here
13:26:34 <AnotherTest> If you stored it in ExtraLongFloat?
13:26:44 <AnotherTest> well that'd be BigDouble
13:26:54 <Madoka-Kaname> We have arbitrary precision floating point code.
13:27:07 <mroman> Would only push the problem a little bit further into the future ;)
13:27:12 <nortti> Vorpal: what processor you have them compiled to?
13:27:18 <mroman> Madoka-Kaname: Like gmp?
13:27:42 <Madoka-Kaname> Something like that
13:27:45 <mroman> gmp also only has a fixed precision afaik.
13:27:45 <Vorpal> nortti, Well I read the NDK docs now and it seems I want ARMv7 with NEON
13:27:54 <Vorpal> nortti, since my phone supports that
13:27:56 <mroman> you can initialize a float with 100000000000000 bit precision
13:27:58 <mroman> but it's still fixed.
13:28:02 <Vorpal> I don't think you can even target more specifically than that
13:28:06 <nortti> Vorpal: well my phone is ARMv6 ...
13:28:23 <Vorpal> nortti, ouch. You have to do your own compiling then (or find suitable versions)
13:28:33 <Madoka-Kaname> mroman, You could do something like
13:28:44 <Madoka-Kaname> log2(n)*32 bits percision
13:28:55 <Vorpal> nortti, how old is it?
13:29:10 <nortti> I bought it new in spring 2011
13:29:14 <Vorpal> hm
13:29:18 <Vorpal> nortti, low end I presume?
13:29:23 <nortti> yeah
13:29:27 <nortti> HTC Wildfire
13:29:37 <Vorpal> pretty sure that even the N900 has an ARMv7
13:29:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that right?
13:31:22 <nortti> I no longer use it as my main phone because after I accidentaly dropped it in sink full of water, disassembled it and let it dry it no longer recognises my SIM card
13:32:13 <Vorpal> nortti, oh
13:32:18 <Vorpal> nortti, so what is your main phone?
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13:32:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes.
13:32:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, and how old is that model?
13:32:45 <Vorpal> oh and does it have NEON?
13:32:57 <nortti> Vorpal: some old Nokia phone I picked up at second hand shop for 8 euros
13:33:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: It does have NEON, and it's from about 2010 I suppose.
13:33:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
13:33:44 <Vorpal> nortti, yeah your phone was definitely low end :P
13:33:51 <nortti> yeah
13:34:09 <Vorpal> nortti, no hardware fpu
13:34:24 <fizzie> It's the same OMAP3 platform model that's in e.g. Motorola Droid and Palm Pre, if you know those things.
13:34:25 <Vorpal> (or even if it has one, android ndk won't use it)
13:34:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, not really no
13:35:17 <Vorpal> note to self: mash the volume down button on the computer that the headphones are actually connected to next time
13:36:48 <Vorpal> okay, now to compile file(1)
13:37:07 <Vorpal> first step: finding the source
13:37:23 <nortti> Vorpal: try stealing the sash version. it is self contained
13:37:38 <Vorpal> my busybox lacks file
13:37:39 <Vorpal> hm
13:37:46 <Vorpal> nortti, any features lacking?
13:38:14 <nortti> Vorpal: well it has builtin database but nothing that I can tell
13:38:52 <nortti> also building sash can be good thing to do regardless. it is bit nicer than android toolbox
13:39:10 <Vorpal> nortti, I do have busybox on it, and I very much like busybox
13:39:19 <Vorpal> it is just that my busybox lacks file
13:39:50 <Vorpal> hm apt-get source file might work
13:40:40 <nortti> Vorpal: oh. I thought that you were installing busybox. sash has for example builtin gzip/gunzip, chmod, cp and tar
13:40:55 <Vorpal> nortti, no I installed busybox earlier with a prebuilt version of it
13:41:02 <nortti> ok
13:41:03 <Vorpal> like two weeks ago
13:41:24 <Vorpal> but file is such a useful command when poking around :P
13:41:38 <nortti> true
13:41:58 <Vorpal> yay, massive ubuntu patch from apt-get source
13:41:58 <nortti> actually my busybox on my main computer also lacks file
13:42:15 <Vorpal> 74 patch files
13:42:23 <nortti> file is just a shell script that invokes sash
13:42:24 <Vorpal> I'm not sure busybox even has file
13:42:51 <Vorpal> I want my GNU file (or whatever, is the usual file GNU?)
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13:49:30 <mroman> So
13:49:43 <mroman> Now I'm gonna write me a syntax highlighter html-format for Burlesque
13:49:49 <mroman> so I can write a cookbook for it :D
13:49:53 <nortti> why?
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13:50:53 <Vorpal> dammit, what is the --build and --host for android
13:51:43 <olsner> are you trying to cross-compile some autotools thing for Android?
13:51:46 <Vorpal> olsner, yes
13:51:50 <Vorpal> olsner, file
13:52:07 <Vorpal> and the --host from the cross compiler's -v output was unrecognized
13:52:19 <olsner> write a small shell script to run adb pull and run your host's file command on it
13:52:30 <Vorpal> that is arm-linux-androideabi
13:52:43 <Vorpal> olsner, I want it from the terminal emulator on the device :P
13:53:53 <olsner> fwiw, this problem sounds reasonably googlable :)
13:54:01 <Vorpal> hm
13:54:03 <Vorpal> true
13:57:00 <spirity> Vorpal is actually incapable of googling
13:57:17 <spirity> if you look through the logs you'll see many instances of this unfortunate syndrome.
13:57:30 <olsner> `? Vorpal
13:57:33 <HackEgo> Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
13:58:09 <olsner> `? olsner
13:58:12 <HackEgo> olsner? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:58:31 <nortti> `ls wisdom
13:58:34 <HackEgo> ​? \ ais523 \ augur \ banach-tarski \ c \ cakeprophet \ category \ coffee \ comonad \ coppro \ egobot \ elliott \ endofunctor \ esoteric \ europe \ everyone \ finland \ finns \ fizzie \ flower \ friendship \ functor \ fungot \ glogbot \ gregor \ hackego \ haskell \ hexham \ ievan \ intercal \ internationale \ itidus20 \ itidus21 \ kallisti \ lens \ lifthrasiir \ mad \ misspellings of croissant \ monad \ monads \ monoid
13:58:34 <Vorpal> aha, there is a newer config.sub
13:58:40 <nortti> `? ?
13:58:44 <HackEgo> ​? is wisdom
13:58:54 <olsner> `? misspellings of croissant
13:58:57 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:59:01 <lifthrasiir> `ls wisdom/lifthrasiir
13:59:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/lifthrasiir
13:59:11 <lifthrasiir> `cat wisdom/lifthrasiir
13:59:14 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends.
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13:59:19 <lifthrasiir> huh.
13:59:26 <olsner> `cat bin/?
13:59:30 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z) \ [ -e "wisdom/$topic" ] || { echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; } \ cat "wisdom/$topic" \
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13:59:53 <olsner> `? banach-tarski
13:59:56 <HackEgo> ​"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
14:01:16 <spirity> `? coffee
14:01:18 <olsner> hmm, isn't banach-tarski effectively saying the same thing as 2*Inf = Inf?
14:01:19 <HackEgo> Coffee is a strange hot brown liquid, often consumed, sometimes with milk and sugar. It contains chemicals considered stimulants.
14:01:33 <olsner> `? finns
14:01:36 <HackEgo> Finns are helpful, albeit grossly overpopulated (cf. 'Finland').
14:01:39 <spirity> olsner: but there's more balls involved.
14:02:28 <Vorpal> dammit, I selected --enable-static and got a dynamically linked binary
14:02:29 <Vorpal> why
14:02:52 <olsner> --enable-static is short for --enable-static=no
14:02:57 <nortti> try --static
14:03:03 <Vorpal> olsner, really?
14:03:16 <olsner> Vorpal: yes, I googled it for you
14:03:21 <Vorpal> how do you read the list of dynamic libraries without using ldd (which obviously won't work cross-platform)
14:03:27 <Vorpal> olsner, I don't believe it
14:03:32 <olsner> Vorpal: then don't!
14:03:45 <Vorpal> oh it is only the library
14:03:47 <Vorpal> hm
14:04:22 <spirity> Good Guy Greg should be a religion.
14:04:31 <Vorpal> nortti, unknown option. I guess I need to mess with CFLAGS and/or LDFLAGS
14:04:35 <spirity> for atheists
14:04:56 <nortti> Vorpal: are those arguments for configure?
14:04:56 <olsner> hmm, a way to list of dynamic libraries without ldd sounds useful... obviously the information is in there, in some section related to dynamic linking
14:05:01 <Vorpal> nortti, yes
14:05:14 <nortti> Vorpal: CFLAGS=--static
14:05:19 <Vorpal> nortti, and it is -static for gcc I'm pretty sure (as in, just one -)=
14:05:23 <Vorpal> s/=/?/
14:05:28 <spirity> olsner: you'll need to find it for Vorpal
14:05:32 <spirity> otherwise there's no hope for him
14:05:33 <Vorpal> yeah it is
14:05:38 <nortti> Vorpal: well gcc seems to accept both
14:05:43 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
14:06:12 <itidus21> spirity: ahh modern religion might prove be kick ass, hence they won't actually call it religion
14:06:50 <spirity> well Good Guy Greg inspires what is essentially humanism.
14:07:24 * spirity should switch majors to English and then right a thesis on Good Guy Greg.
14:07:45 <itidus21> Well Good Guy is becoming a group now
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14:08:34 <spirity> “Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead.”
14:08:37 <spirity> ― Kurt Vonnegut
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14:09:46 <Vorpal> yay, my file works
14:10:10 <nortti> yay
14:10:18 <spirity> Vorpal: your file is just, like, data man.
14:10:34 <nortti> spirity: command named file
14:10:43 <itidus21> spirity: on the surface it's easy
14:11:17 <Vorpal> nortti, it expects to find the magic data under a specific place though, since that is how normal file works. I decided to go for putting all my custom stuff in /data/arvid, since I found it unlikely to collide with anything else
14:11:22 <spirity> unlike your mom, who is easy at all depths.
14:11:28 <Vorpal> so it is useless to you
14:11:47 <Vorpal> (for a start, different ABI, also your phone is not rooted, so you can't use that path)
14:11:57 <nortti> ok
14:11:58 <itidus21> there are a lot of appeals to nature, to genetics, to other things, to explain human desires
14:12:04 <Vorpal> or is it rooted
14:12:08 <Vorpal> I thought you said it wasn't
14:12:11 <Vorpal> not sure any more
14:12:12 <nortti> I'll just compile my own cross compiler
14:12:20 <Vorpal> nortti, eh, android ndk includes it
14:12:25 <Vorpal> you just have to set it up
14:12:31 <itidus21> and, society becomes reified
14:12:34 <nortti> Vorpal: how much disk space it requires?
14:12:36 <Vorpal> like run a script, export a few env variables
14:12:37 <Vorpal> sec
14:14:00 <Vorpal> nortti, 561 MB for the NDK itself (when uncompressed). The script then generates the standalone toolchain directory tree (98 MB), after that you can throw away the rest of the NDK. You also need a few basic bits of the SDK to push your files onto the device probably
14:14:11 <nortti> ok
14:14:18 <Vorpal> not sure how large those bits of the SDK are
14:14:25 <Vorpal> since I have a lot of the SDK installed
14:14:26 <nortti> what bits?
14:14:32 <Vorpal> for multiple ABI versions
14:14:32 <Vorpal> sec
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14:15:01 <Vorpal> nortti, the platform tools and sdk tools
14:15:08 <nortti> why?
14:15:14 <Vorpal> nortti, to get adb for adb shell?
14:15:24 <Vorpal> and iirc part of the NDK docs said it was needed
14:15:41 <Vorpal> nortti, right you might want to save the docs directory from the NDK as well :P
14:15:54 <nortti> Vorpal: does it need usb connection to phone?
14:16:10 <Vorpal> nortti, well how else would you push files easily?
14:16:20 <Vorpal> I guess you could send them over some other way
14:16:22 <Vorpal> I don't know
14:16:40 <Vorpal> nortti, but no the NDK doesn't need it when compiling
14:16:45 <nortti> then I have a problem. I don't reliable usb port
14:16:52 <Vorpal> nortti, huh?
14:16:54 <nortti> +have
14:17:01 <Vorpal> well, send it over however you want then
14:17:14 <Vorpal> and use whatever you use on the device for the shell :P
14:17:15 <nortti> only usb port on this machine sometimes refuses to work
14:17:21 <nortti> ok
14:17:43 <Vorpal> nortti, just be aware of that you need numeric modes for the standard chmod on android :P
14:17:49 <Vorpal> yes it is pretty terrible
14:18:24 <Vorpal> hm /sbin/ueventd is a symlink to /init
14:18:27 <Vorpal> interesting
14:18:57 <Vorpal> hm what is ueventd, thought it was udev, but doesn't appear so
14:19:09 <itidus21> spirity: i suppose my confusion is to how an individual gains more benefits by reproducing and by providing riches and power to his/her offspring than he/she benefits by living in harmony
14:19:21 <nortti> Vorpal: what other modes there are other than numeric?
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14:19:36 <itidus21> in other words, in order to have our individuality are we secretly in debt to our collective?
14:19:42 <Vorpal> nortti, symbolic, like u+x
14:19:46 <nortti> oh
14:19:46 <Vorpal> they don't work
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14:19:53 <Vorpal> you need to do 775 or whatever
14:20:06 <nortti> I didn't know that kind of modes existed
14:20:12 <Vorpal> what, really?
14:20:17 <nortti> I always use numeric mode
14:20:19 <nortti> yes
14:20:19 <itidus21> are we secretly required to help our own species compete and prosper against other species?
14:20:22 <Vorpal> nortti, that way you can do difference to existing
14:20:28 <Vorpal> can't with numeric
14:20:35 <nortti> oh
14:20:52 <Vorpal> nortti, like chmod -R g+r . to recursively add group read to a directory hierarchy
14:20:53 <itidus21> is our means of doing this to blow up earth? :D
14:20:54 <Vorpal> read the man page :P
14:21:09 <nortti> ok. I'll just install man
14:21:14 <Vorpal> nortti, "lol"
14:21:17 <Vorpal> and man-pages
14:21:26 <Vorpal> for the actual data files
14:21:31 -!- monqy has left.
14:21:32 <nortti> ok
14:21:37 <Vorpal> or whatever your system calls that package
14:21:38 <nortti> done
14:21:47 <Vorpal> now you have manuals
14:21:54 <Vorpal> hooray
14:22:39 <nortti> well I already had them but I had to install retawq to use man
14:23:01 <Vorpal> wtf is retawq
14:23:15 <Vorpal> nortti, wait are you still on netbsd?
14:23:22 <Vorpal> not sure the ndk will work on that
14:23:26 <nortti> Vorpal: no. on slitaz
14:23:27 <itidus21> <-- not so good guy
14:23:34 <Vorpal> what is slitaz?
14:23:36 <Vorpal> is it linux?
14:23:40 <nortti> Vorpal: yes
14:24:03 <nortti> Vorpal: netbsd was in my virtual machine
14:24:28 <Vorpal> okay so anyone knows how to do what ldd does without using ldd? Since ldd is not cross-platform
14:24:32 <Vorpal> I guess readelf can do it
14:24:38 <Vorpal> but I don't know which bit
14:24:44 <Vorpal> hm
14:25:53 <itidus21> basically what i mean is that it seems to me that what is a crime among individuals is often not against the goals of a species at large
14:26:20 <nortti> like?
14:26:47 <itidus21> that, stealing is just about being competitive with resources
14:26:58 <Vorpal> ah readelf -d
14:27:08 <Vorpal> "NEEDED" lines
14:27:45 <Vorpal> itidus21, google altruism
14:29:20 <spirity> Vorpal: I'm not sure if that was intended as a counterargument
14:29:24 <spirity> but it's not really one.
14:30:05 <Vorpal> it kind of is?
14:30:25 <olsner> how to do what ldd does without using ldd? set the magic environment variable and run the program, then it will print the ldd output and exit instead of starting up
14:31:07 <Vorpal> spirity, rather than trying to outsmart the other individuals to get the most food or whatever for yourself, a /truly/ altruistic approach would be to share so that everyone gets enough to survive at least
14:31:48 <Taneb> I think...
14:31:54 <Taneb> I think I've broken my memory stick
14:31:58 <nortti> Vorpal: do I need to specify what android version to use?
14:32:09 <olsner> true altruism might involve selecting the people that are useful for everyone and feeding them first
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14:32:23 <Vorpal> olsner, no it won't, because dynamic linker is stupid on target platform :P
14:32:40 <itidus21> i think where humanity is heading is to focus not on killing the excess, but having less babies, based on a change of priority to benefit those living humans rather than increasing their number
14:32:48 <Vorpal> olsner, android doesn't use ld.so, it uses a custom inferior one (/system/bin/linker)
14:32:57 <Vorpal> nortti, err the API version yes
14:33:10 <Vorpal> nortti, what does about device say for android version?
14:33:18 <Vorpal> I can convert it to the API version for you
14:33:23 <Taneb> Any ideas what http://imgur.com/M1RjT means?
14:33:26 <nortti> Vorpal: 2.2.1
14:33:52 <Vorpal> sec
14:34:21 <olsner> Taneb: that's what mount gives you when something is wrong, could mean anything
14:34:33 <Vorpal> nortti, $NDK/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh --platform=android-8 --install-dir=/tmp/my-android-toolchain
14:34:52 <Vorpal> nortti, that should be the right one
14:35:00 <itidus21> we're at a point as a species that, in an emergency we could probably reach 50 billion humans in 10 years with appropriate use of laws and medical technology
14:35:16 <itidus21> we no longer need our obsession with sex
14:35:26 <Vorpal> nortti, and then move /tmp/my-android-toolchain to wheverever you want
14:35:28 <Taneb> olsner, can just format it?
14:35:30 <Vorpal> and read the rest of the document
14:35:31 <nortti> ok
14:35:53 <Vorpal> (or specify your final target location for it right away)
14:36:09 <Vorpal> arvid@dragon /opt/android-ndk-r8b $ ls platforms/
14:36:09 <Vorpal> android-14 android-3 android-4 android-5 android-8 android-9
14:36:17 <Vorpal> not all API versions have new NDK versions
14:36:30 <nortti> ok
14:36:45 <olsner> Taneb: fwiw, it's usually *not* a broken file system that's the cause
14:36:55 <Taneb> olsner, I wanted to format it anyway
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14:37:13 <olsner> ah, then formatting before trying to mount it is a good idea
14:37:25 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway, you might want to save a copy of docs/STANDALONE-TOOLCHAIN.html at least even if you delete the rest of the NDK
14:37:41 <nortti> ok
14:37:42 <Vorpal> maybe the entire docs/
14:37:45 <Vorpal> it isn't that large
14:38:12 <itidus21> i hope i didn't make monqy leave, i have /leave paranoia when someone leaves after i have started
14:38:27 <itidus21> but i don't think he is so fickle as that
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14:38:44 <Vorpal> Taneb, sudo file -sL /dev/sdb1
14:38:47 <Vorpal> what does it say
14:39:08 <Taneb> "data"
14:39:11 <Vorpal> wow
14:39:17 <Vorpal> Taneb, sudo file -sL /dev/sdb* ?
14:39:32 <Taneb> /dev/sdb1: data
14:39:37 <Taneb> Wait
14:39:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, and for /dev/sdb itself?
14:39:41 <Taneb> I forgot to take off the 1
14:39:51 <Taneb> # ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data 'bootimg ' (bootable)
14:40:03 <Vorpal> eh, how does that even have a sdb1 then
14:40:11 <Vorpal> since there is obviously no partition table
14:40:14 <Vorpal> HOW DOES THAT WORK?
14:40:23 <Taneb> I DON'T KNOW
14:40:52 <Vorpal> Taneb, did you not unplug and replug it after you messed up the partition table?
14:40:55 <Vorpal> that could explain it
14:41:08 <Taneb> I've repeatedly unplugged and replugged it?
14:41:12 <Vorpal> huh
14:41:12 <Vorpal> okay
14:41:15 <Vorpal> then I have no idea
14:41:38 <Vorpal> Taneb, anyway I don't think bootable USB sticks work like that
14:41:44 <Vorpal> if that is what it is supposed to be
14:44:24 <Vorpal> not sure though
14:45:18 <nortti> /home/juhani/src/android-ndk-r8b/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh: eval: line 1: can't open name: no such file
14:45:20 <nortti> /home/juhani/src/android-ndk-r8b/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh: eval: line 1: OPTIONS_text_--arch=: not found
14:45:24 <nortti> /home/juhani/src/android-ndk-r8b/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh: eval: line 1: OPTIONS_abstract_Specify: not found
14:45:25 <Vorpal> what
14:45:26 <nortti> eh
14:45:36 <Vorpal> what did you specify?
14:45:40 <Vorpal> what is your command line
14:45:54 <Vorpal> I don't think you specify --arch to it? Since it defaults to arm
14:46:02 <nortti> SYSROOT=/home/juhani/src/android-ndk-r8b/platforms/android-8/arch-arm/ $NDK/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh --platform=android-8 --install-dir=/tmp/my-android-toolchain
14:46:22 <Vorpal> err that is not right
14:46:24 <olsner> isn't that the script to *compile* a toolchain from scratch? the ndk already has a built toolchain you can use
14:46:39 <Vorpal> nortti, drop the sysroot stuff, that is for the alternative approach
14:47:14 <nortti> ok
14:47:37 <nortti> /home/juhani/src/android-ndk-r8b/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh: eval: line 1: can't open name: no such file
14:47:40 <nortti> /home/juhani/src/android-ndk-r8b/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh: eval: line 1: OPTIONS_text_--toolchain=: not found
14:47:43 <nortti> /home/juhani/src/android-ndk-r8b/build/tools/make-standalone-toolchain.sh: eval: line 1: OPTIONS_abstract_Specify: not found
14:47:45 <Vorpal> nortti, okay, maybe you need bash for this?
14:47:46 <nortti> expr: syntax error
14:47:47 <Vorpal> I don't know
14:47:52 <Vorpal> or at least dash
14:48:04 <nortti> same thing with bash
14:48:09 <Vorpal> what then I'm clueless
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14:48:17 <nortti> trying busybox instead of toybox
14:48:23 <Vorpal> nortti, that might help yes
14:49:05 <Vorpal> nortti, personally I used the full gnu thingy, I guess I could export one and upload it to dropbox for you if that doesn't work. Going to take a while though, my upload is rather slow
14:49:11 <nortti> same thing
14:49:43 <nortti> Vorpal: are your binaries PIII compatible?
14:49:57 <Vorpal> nortti, well, the script forces 32-bit binaries
14:50:03 <nortti> ok
14:50:06 <Vorpal> as long as the NDK works on PIII then sure
14:50:43 <Taneb> How do I get on this memory stick
14:51:21 <Vorpal> 25 MB file to upload, *tries to recompress as xz*
14:52:01 <Vorpal> xz -9 running...
14:52:37 <Deewiant> Using plain xz would probably end up being faster :-P
14:52:48 <Vorpal> hm true
14:52:53 <Vorpal> and still smaller than bzip2
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14:53:10 <Deewiant> -9 only differs from -8 for files bigger than 32 megs anyway
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14:53:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well the file is 96 MB :P
14:53:47 <Vorpal> 25 MB from bzip2
14:53:53 <Deewiant> Ah
14:54:03 <Vorpal> ah 16 MB from plain xz
14:54:07 <Vorpal> good enough
14:54:30 * Vorpal moves it to the dropbox directory
14:55:49 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway the default is -6 not -8
14:56:18 <Vorpal> but yeah xz is slow
14:56:35 <Deewiant> Yes I know, I was just pointing out that -9 is uselessly much anyway
14:56:42 <Deewiant> Although of course it's easier to just use -9 always
14:56:45 <Deewiant> (Or -9e :-P)
14:57:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, -e increases the work on the uncompressing side, no?
14:57:14 <Vorpal> oh I guess not
14:57:18 <Deewiant> No
14:57:29 <Deewiant> Unless it compresses worse, of course
14:57:39 <Vorpal> does higher number mean more memory when uncompressing then?
14:57:44 <Deewiant> Yes
14:57:45 <Vorpal> right
14:57:51 <Vorpal> guess -6 is good for nortti then :P
14:57:59 <Vorpal> what with his low spec machine
14:58:06 <nortti> yeah
14:58:24 <nortti> Vorpal: your phone is probably more powerful
14:58:35 <Vorpal> nortti, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/87474461/arm-linux-androideabi-4.6.tar.xz
14:58:48 <Vorpal> nortti, yes, quad core 1.4 GHz ARMv7 with NEON :P
14:58:53 <nortti> :D
14:58:55 <Vorpal> it has more cores than my laptop
14:59:06 <Vorpal> (Core 2 Duo @ 2.26 GHz)
14:59:20 <nortti> yeah. my computer is single core 700 MHz Pentium III
14:59:39 <Vorpal> nortti, still my desktop beats both: Quad core Core i7 (Sandy Bridge) at 3.4 GHz
14:59:53 <nortti> wow
14:59:55 <Vorpal> that has hyperthreading too
15:00:09 <Vorpal> so 8 logical cores, 4 real ones
15:00:32 <nortti> ok. well I'm moving to 500MHz g3 with 640MB of RAM in few weeks
15:00:34 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway tell me when you finished downloading, I want to delete that file when I'm done
15:00:39 <Vorpal> g3?
15:00:40 <Vorpal> wow
15:00:44 <Vorpal> poor you
15:00:47 <nortti> I'm done
15:00:52 <Vorpal> nortti, why would you use a G3?
15:01:01 <nortti> because it was cheap
15:01:15 <Vorpal> nortti, not going to drop your current machine I hope
15:01:23 <nortti> why?
15:01:39 <nortti> my current machine has 64MB of RAM
15:01:50 <Vorpal> no hope of android programming on PPC I'm afraid, without making your own toolchain from scratch
15:02:04 <nortti> yeah?
15:02:09 <Vorpal> don't think the SDK for java supports that either
15:02:23 <nortti> so. I hate java
15:02:26 <Vorpal> oh well
15:02:34 <Vorpal> nortti, why did you ever get an android phone then? ;P
15:02:48 <nortti> because other choice was nokia
15:02:55 <Vorpal> symbian? right
15:02:59 <nortti> with symbian s60
15:04:18 <nortti> the symbian that the last nokia symbian phones used was large improvement over symbian s60
15:04:47 <Vorpal> nortti, you might need to download new config.sub or config.guess for autotools projects, if they complain about androideabi being an unknown system
15:04:58 <nortti> ok
15:05:06 <Vorpal> I used --host=arm-linux-androideabi to ./configure
15:06:00 <Vorpal> also set --prefix to wherever you intend to put the stuff on the phone, then use DESTDIR=some/path/here make install
15:06:10 <Vorpal> so you don't try to install to that absolute path
15:08:03 <nortti> where configure is located?
15:08:27 <nortti> oh. you're talking about busybox
15:08:57 <Vorpal> nortti, no about ./configure style projects
15:09:02 <nortti> ok
15:09:04 <Vorpal> nortti, like GNU file
15:09:08 <Vorpal> busybox uses a different system
15:09:15 <nortti> ok
15:09:15 <Vorpal> basically like the kernel config
15:09:19 <Vorpal> I have no idea how you set that up
15:09:27 <nortti> hmm. I'll try
15:09:35 <Vorpal> I'll google :PO
15:09:37 <Vorpal> :P*
15:09:47 -!- nooga has joined.
15:09:47 <Vorpal> like first hit is their FAQ
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15:16:41 <AnotherTest> mroman: HELP will also allow comments I think :)
15:17:20 <AnotherTest> (that is, comments that do not take time to process)
15:17:50 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, comments that do not take time to process?
15:17:51 <Vorpal> what
15:18:07 <Vorpal> of course it will take time to parse them
15:18:33 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, you can't write a lexer which magically skips comments!
15:18:51 <nortti> include/libbb.h:256:7: error: size of array 'BUG_off_t_size_is_misdetected' is negative
15:18:52 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: they're preprocessed out long before execution
15:18:56 <nortti> uhm. what?
15:19:02 <Vorpal> AnotherTest, right, you didn't specify at which stage
15:19:04 <Vorpal> nortti, what
15:19:10 <Vorpal> nortti, what are you trying to compile?
15:19:15 <nortti> busybox
15:19:15 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: currently you would have to pop a value from the stack
15:19:27 <Vorpal> nortti, oh I'm configuring it atm. Spending ages in menuconfig for it XD
15:19:31 <AnotherTest> Vorpal: but you're right, I should have mentioned that
15:19:34 <Vorpal> (yeah I'm that sort of person)
15:20:02 <nortti> Vorpal: make defconfig
15:20:31 <Vorpal> nortti, default config? Too boring
15:20:40 <Vorpal> besides some of these options look bad on android
15:20:44 <Vorpal> since there is no /var
15:20:53 <Vorpal> you obviously can't do stuff that requires that
15:21:50 <nortti> ok
15:24:21 <nortti> should I use devpts?
15:25:16 <Vorpal> nortti, well on my phone the answer is yes
15:25:26 <Vorpal> check if you have /dev/pts (and something in that) on your own phone
15:25:51 <Vorpal> nortti, also avoid the suid stuff, especially if you aren't rooted, you are not going to have /etc/busybox.conf in any case
15:26:18 <AnotherTest> mroman: 1) would you be able to make an online shell (I could maybe do it if you don't want to) 2) haskeline is not part of haskell-platform
15:26:28 <Vorpal> also Build options, set the sysroot and so on (/opt/android-ndk-standalone/arm-linux-androideabi-4.6/sysroot for me)
15:26:34 <nortti> Path to BusyBox executable (BUSYBOX_EXEC_PATH) [/proc/self/exe] ?
15:26:43 <Vorpal> nortti, sure, that is standard linux behaviour
15:28:23 <nortti> intallation prefix?
15:28:43 <AnotherTest> mroman: never mind 2, I installed libghc6-haskeline-dev
15:28:50 <Vorpal> nortti, hm? where is that?
15:29:11 <Vorpal> anyway, I like how the config tool warns you that enabling a specific feature will use ~60 bytes more
15:29:12 <Vorpal> XD
15:29:45 <nortti> BusyBox installation prefix (PREFIX) [./_install]
15:30:20 <Vorpal> hm no idea
15:30:29 <Vorpal> anyway I can't find the applet selection list
15:30:30 <Vorpal> where is it
15:31:22 <Vorpal> oh right
15:31:26 <Vorpal> that wasn't the top menu XD
15:31:40 <nortti> Use termios to manipulate the screen (FEATURE_USE_TERMIOS) [Y/n/?]
15:32:08 <Vorpal> no idea, I'm jumping around in menu config, not using plain config
15:32:24 <Vorpal> probably should be enabled
15:32:36 <Vorpal> at least after reading the help for it
15:34:44 <nortti> why is patch under editors?
15:34:55 <Vorpal> I haven't gotten that far yet
15:38:20 <Vorpal> nortti, bbiab food
15:44:59 <nortti> Vorpal: still getting include/libbb.h:256:7: error: size of array 'BUG_off_t_size_is_misdetected' is negative error
15:52:58 <Vorpal> hm
15:53:10 <Vorpal> nortti, I will try to compile it myself soon
15:59:19 <zzo38> Non-empty list comonad can be coapplicative, isn't it?
15:59:34 <nortti> ./lib/portability.h:84:1: error: unknown type name 'ssize_t'
15:59:34 <nortti> ./lib/portability.h:84:34: error: unknown type name 'size_t'
15:59:34 <nortti> ./lib/portability.h:84:56: error: unknown type name 'FILE'
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15:59:40 <Vorpal> nortti, huh
15:59:43 <Vorpal> that is screwed up
15:59:52 <nortti> trying to compile toybox
16:00:04 <Vorpal> hm
16:00:12 <zzo38> edwardk_: Did you have _ on your name before, or just now?
16:00:13 <Vorpal> well I run into the libbb thing too
16:00:43 <edwardk_> the client puts it on if it can't get my nick, due to a stuck connection, etc.
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16:01:05 <Vorpal> nortti, oh googling that error suggests some small patches may be needed
16:01:15 <nortti> ok
16:01:45 <Vorpal> nortti, or hm configs/android_ndk_defconfig?
16:02:08 <nortti> what?
16:02:15 <Vorpal> nortti, in the busybox sources
16:02:17 <Vorpal> that file existsw
16:02:20 <Vorpal> exists*
16:02:20 <nortti> ok
16:02:24 <zzo38> edwardk: Do you know coapplicative?
16:02:29 <Vorpal> nortti, I do want a few extra applets though
16:02:37 <Vorpal> anyway google the libbbb error
16:02:42 <edwardk> i've seen various attempts by people to specify one
16:02:47 <Vorpal> first hit was on github, very useful
16:03:11 <edwardk> but as you don't have comonoids in hask its less relevant ;)
16:03:20 <edwardk> and we also don't have coexponentials
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16:11:21 <Vorpal> nortti, yeah https://github.com/tias/android-busybox-ndk works for me so far (still compiling) Need to adjust the API version from 9 to 8 for your phone though
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16:14:20 <Vorpal> yay this busybox has lsof
16:14:25 <Vorpal> the one I was using did not
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16:30:54 <nortti> Vorpal: should I be able to install busybox if I download the file to sdcard using ftp with es explorer and the install it using cat to /data/org.connectbot ?
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16:33:21 <Vorpal> nortti, sure, and then chmod as required
16:33:45 <Vorpal> nortti, oh and use busybox ln rather than just ln if you want to link the applets
16:33:52 <Vorpal> I forgot why
16:33:59 <Vorpal> but android ln was slightly broken
16:34:05 <Vorpal> don't remember the exact details
16:38:36 <Vorpal> nortti, btw why haven't you rooted the phone?
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16:45:13 <Vorpal> nortti, did it work?
16:45:18 <mroman> AnotherTest: I think I could hack something together using Ajax and CGI, yes.
16:46:41 <mroman> or probably without Ajax too :)
16:51:46 <mroman> But I can't host it, no.
16:52:05 <mroman> Not without lots of efforts.
16:52:38 <mroman> I would need to make sure that the process terminates after a time, terminates if it consumes to much time etc.
16:52:55 <mroman> I'm not sure apaches cgi module has enough support for that.
16:53:23 <Vorpal> mroman, you could write a cgi wrapper for that?
16:53:48 <mroman> I could.
16:54:04 <mroman> If I knew the right unix tools to launch processes with restrictions :)
16:54:40 <mroman> oh
16:54:44 <mroman> apache has RLimitMEM
16:54:45 <mroman> cool.
16:55:23 <mroman> Ok. Then I can host it.
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16:59:37 <Taneb> Well, it is NOW TIME TO INSTALL HAIKU
16:59:39 <Taneb> brb
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17:03:31 <Vorpal> Taneb, why haiku?
17:03:34 <Vorpal> isn't that beos?
17:06:44 <Taneb> Yeah
17:07:03 <Taneb> I want all my OS's to be from different families
17:07:16 <nortti> Vorpal: compile failed
17:07:19 <Taneb> I've got a friend with a copy of Windows 7 Ultimate
17:07:26 <Taneb> And I'm used to Ubuntu
17:07:29 <Taneb> And I craved a third
17:07:40 <nortti> Taneb: so windows, linux, haiku, syllable, aros?
17:08:23 <nortti> Vorpal: networking/telnet.c:39:25: fatal error: arpa/telnet.h: No such file or directory
17:08:32 <Taneb> Syllable is unix-like
17:08:38 <nortti> is it?
17:08:46 <Taneb> Wikipedia thinks it is
17:08:50 <nortti> oh
17:09:03 <nortti> is SkyOS still available?
17:11:23 <Taneb> I... don't think so
17:11:29 <nortti> Taneb: Visopsys?
17:12:12 <Taneb> Yes
17:12:25 <Taneb> It looks very 90's
17:12:27 <nortti> okk. now istall it and aros
17:12:34 <nortti> *ok
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17:16:25 <Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: networking/telnet.c:39:25: fatal error: arpa/telnet.h: No such file or directory <-- did you use the config provided by that github project and the patches from it?
17:16:28 <Vorpal> that worked for me
17:20:05 <mroman> At least I *could* host it if RLimitMEM would do what I expect it to do :(
17:27:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: "Berlesque programmers are very rare. " typo :D?
17:28:14 <mroman> oh
17:28:15 <mroman> yeah :(
17:28:44 <AnotherTest> HELP can only do something like # test := ri{^^\/1.-}{5.-}w!1.- at the moment
17:29:19 <AnotherTest> I'm going to add \ to allow it spanning over multiple lines
17:29:46 <AnotherTest> Or I could use a delimiter character
17:30:05 <AnotherTest> Not sure what would be best
17:30:50 <mroman> AnotherTest: http://eso.mroman.ch/cgi/burlesque.cgi
17:31:57 <AnotherTest> Nice
17:32:03 <AnotherTest> very nice
17:32:27 <AnotherTest> Also, should I use ';' as a delimiter ?
17:32:29 -!- MDude has joined.
17:32:45 <mroman> Delimiter for what?
17:32:48 <AnotherTest> Or should I use '\' to use multiple lines
17:32:51 <AnotherTest> For a defintion
17:33:02 <AnotherTest> # macro := something here
17:33:07 <mroman> # foo := bar ; # foo2 = fooooo
17:33:11 <mroman> ^- like that?
17:33:20 <AnotherTest> no, like:
17:33:35 <AnotherTest> # foo := bar
17:33:35 <AnotherTest> and bar bar
17:34:01 <AnotherTest> (a multi-line macro or whatever it should be called)
17:34:26 <mroman> I'd use indentation for that
17:34:27 <AnotherTest> but the example you gave would then be valid too
17:34:32 <mroman> # foo := bar
17:34:35 <mroman> still foo
17:35:02 <AnotherTest> what if someone had burleque that was shaped?
17:35:19 <AnotherTest> maybe they would need a space on the start of the line...
17:35:22 <mroman> Then you have to put a space in front of each line
17:35:35 <mroman> If your code line starts with a space, then you just have two spaces
17:35:46 <mroman> # foo := python code
17:35:50 <mroman> if bar:
17:35:54 <mroman> foobar
17:35:59 <mroman> ^- like that.
17:36:11 <AnotherTest> ah okay
17:36:42 <nortti> Vorpal: YES
17:36:46 <nortti> *yes
17:41:02 <Vorpal> nortti, ?
17:41:05 <AnotherTest> mroman: is a single space fine, or should it be a larger amount of spaces?
17:41:06 <Vorpal> yes to what
17:41:33 <nortti> 20:16 < Vorpal> <nortti> Vorpal: networking/telnet.c:39:25: fatal error: arpa/telnet.h: No such file or directory <-- did you use the config provided by that github project and the patches from it?
17:41:39 <Vorpal> nortti, I assume you adjusted the sysroot path in make menuconfig for it?
17:41:44 <nortti> yes
17:41:59 <nortti> well actually with vi .config
17:43:01 <Vorpal> nortti, there were some other differences due to newer version
17:43:09 <nortti> like?
17:43:15 <Vorpal> arvid@dragon /opt/android-ndk-standalone/arm-linux-androideabi-4.6/sysroot/usr/include $ find . -iname 'telnet.h'
17:43:16 <Vorpal> ./arpa/telnet.h
17:43:31 <Vorpal> nortti, LSOF had to be enabled, since it is new in last busybox version
17:43:37 <nortti> ok
17:46:58 <Taneb> Well, it refuses to get past the third symbol on the boot-up screen
17:47:14 <Vorpal> Taneb, qemu?
17:47:39 <Taneb> I... don't understand what you mean by that
17:48:58 -!- elliott_ has joined.
17:49:00 <elliott_> /usr/bin/ld: note: 'SDL_GetKeyState' is defined in DSO /lib64/libSDL-1.2.so.0 so try adding it to the linker command line
17:49:01 <elliott_> Whoa, fancy.
17:49:01 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm up to 2008
17:49:40 <Vorpal> youtube is breaking for me today. Randomly jumping back to the start of the video or sometimes just stopping playing
17:50:01 <Vorpal> elliott_, which linker is that? gnu ld or gold?
17:50:07 <oerjan> Taneb: darn you're fast
17:50:10 <Vorpal> and did it scan all your *.so=
17:50:12 <Vorpal> s/=/?/
17:50:15 <Vorpal> or what
17:50:17 <elliott_> gold is a GNU ld, too.
17:50:20 <Taneb> oerjan, I have practisew
17:50:24 <elliott_> But it's not gold.
17:50:24 <Taneb> *-w
17:50:26 <Vorpal> ah
17:50:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, fancy still
17:50:39 <olsner> they should call them gnuld and gnold
17:50:47 <Vorpal> elliott_, what version and/or how?
17:50:53 <elliott_> olsner: new ld, gn old
17:51:06 <elliott_> Vorpal: 2.22.0.20120323
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18:00:59 <mroman> AnotherTest: A single spaces is fine I guess.
18:01:22 <fizzie> Link-time typechecking is what would be fancy. Does that happen yet?
18:02:18 <elliott_> fizzie: As a replacement for, or in addition to, the normal kind?
18:03:48 <fizzie> In addition to. The sort of thing that would catch if you have "int f(void); f();" in one translation unit (a term so old-fashioned-sounding) and "int f(int x) { return x; }" in another.
18:04:41 <fizzie> Sounds like something at least LLVM-style "compile to LLVM intermediate bytecode and then do whatevers at link-time" would catch.
18:04:54 <Vorpal> elliott_, hm
18:05:41 <elliott_> fizzie: Right. That essentially amounts to a header file checker in practice, surely? And you usually include them in such a way that it'd get caught anyway.
18:06:08 <Vorpal> elliott_, what if you forgot to put static in front of some local functions?
18:06:15 <Vorpal> then that could happen
18:07:01 <fizzie> Header files, schmeader files. I just heard about some dude who just declares external functions only inside functions using them, because that's "data hiding".
18:07:15 <Vorpal> ouch
18:07:16 <fizzie> (Including printf.)
18:07:47 <elliott_> fizzie: Heh. Where is this?
18:08:05 <fizzie> Possibly it was a comp.lang.c thread, I don't think I could re-find it.
18:08:20 <fizzie> It wasn't "just" just.
18:09:03 <olsner> as long as everything uses the wrong data, the real data is indeed hidden
18:13:25 <olsner> does C let you declare external functions inside functions? istr that's a c++ feature
18:13:51 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure you can in C too.
18:15:53 <fizzie> "The declaration of an identifier for a function that has block scope shall have no explicit storage-class specifier other than extern.
18:16:15 -!- MoALTz_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:16:50 <elliott_> hi ais523
18:17:00 <Gregor> Yeah, that's legal C.
18:17:49 <olsner> stupid idea anyway, local declarations of external functions just invites getting it wrong
18:17:52 <Taneb> @ping
18:17:52 <lambdabot> pong
18:17:59 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:18:16 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:18:21 <elliott_> bye ais523
18:18:46 <oerjan> wat
18:19:12 * oerjan scans for invisible ais523 talk
18:19:14 -!- oonbotti has joined.
18:19:22 <fizzie> olsner: Data hiding!
18:19:30 <elliott_> oerjan: there is none
18:19:31 <Taneb> Practically any monad or comonad can be made using Const as a base
18:19:41 <Taneb> Proxy/Empty = Const ()
18:19:48 <Taneb> Identity = Cofree Proxy
18:19:56 <Taneb> Maybe = Free Proxy
18:20:24 <Taneb> NonEmpty = Cofree Maybe
18:20:24 <olsner> fizzie: true, that's a REALLY GOOD use for that feature
18:20:32 <Taneb> [] = Compose Maybe NonEmpty
18:20:52 -!- ogrom has joined.
18:20:57 <Taneb> Actually, this isn't true at all
18:21:04 <Taneb> A lot of the abstract ones can
18:21:23 <elliott_> You can't make anything with an (->) in it.
18:21:27 <elliott_> Unless you allow (->).
18:21:30 <elliott_> Obviously.
18:21:32 <Taneb> Yeah
18:21:48 <Taneb> That was a lot less awesome a revelation then I first entailed
18:22:17 <Taneb> Either is the tagged union of Const and Identity?
18:42:05 <Gregor> `words --help
18:42:10 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length
18:42:14 <Gregor> `words -l
18:42:17 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
18:42:21 <Gregor> `words --eng-1M 50
18:42:26 <HackEgo> toox sanami tible austol dun unier ellit shutzotheich herian eling impumo bungazy veneffer fida eccart buonapolyzan baadenking pell corcen cord resposed oratine kunk more chaggr
18:43:27 <elliott_> sanami
18:43:31 <elliott_> that seems more japanese
18:43:43 <elliott_> chaggr, check + swagger
18:43:45 <Gregor> “shutzotheich” doesn't strike me as very English either.
18:43:59 <elliott_> short for "check your swagger", said to someone when they are super uncool but acting like they are not
18:44:17 <elliott_> Austol is clearly some medication
18:44:28 <elliott_> a brand name for buonapolyzan
18:44:39 <Gregor> “Yo dawg, chaggr!” “Me chaggr? You chaggr, you just said 'Yo dawg'!”
18:45:08 <elliott_> actually it's "chagger"
18:45:13 <elliott_> chaggr is a site for posting people who need to chagger
18:45:30 <elliott_> chagger.com is free; the opportunity is open
18:45:44 <Phantom_Hoover> `words --en-gb
18:45:47 <HackEgo> Unknown option: en-gb
18:45:48 <Gregor> lol
18:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> `words --en-gb 20
18:46:15 <HackEgo> Unknown option: en-gb
18:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> um
18:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
18:46:26 <Phantom_Hoover> `words --eng-gb
18:46:31 <HackEgo> coonting
18:46:38 <Gregor> Hot.
18:46:41 <elliott_> coonting
18:46:48 <elliott_> <HackEgo> toox sanami tible austol dun unier ellit shutzotheich herian eling impumo bungazy veneffer fida eccart buonapolyzan baadenking pell corcen cord resposed oratine kunk more chaggr
18:46:57 <elliott_> so, kunk is clearly some sort of bodily fluid
18:46:58 <Phantom_Hoover> `words --eng-gb 10
18:47:03 <elliott_> resposed is... almost a word
18:47:03 <HackEgo> arry abylosson tear hamma sae haul vening riggle fam fren
18:47:15 <elliott_> it is rest + repose
18:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> nonono
18:47:28 <Phantom_Hoover> it's like disposed
18:47:36 <elliott_> oratine is clearly oral sex involving ovaltine
18:47:44 <elliott_> no idea what "more" could be
18:48:14 <oerjan> o tempora o mores
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18:48:28 <mroman> tear is an actual word.
18:48:40 <elliott_> very funny
18:48:43 <elliott_> you're such an abylosson
18:48:44 <mroman> whatever HackEgo's words is supposed to do o_O
18:48:54 <mroman> `words --eng-gb 1
18:48:59 <HackEgo> inde
18:49:01 <mroman> `words --eng-gb 3
18:49:03 <elliott_> `words --finnish 50
18:49:06 <elliott_> fizzie: interpret
18:49:07 <HackEgo> vassani nojalollakunne ostamistänsä kahlavisikilot maksitovaamupaljaa automaitsevimpana tutteluaakkoamaalta ahneellaistumies leveämpisi hautovilla haustannelastammenensä aforimittava muottaviini munkeroiksesi toilleen tautteellistan humiin koettamani alailevissan mutojärkemilta valleen noustasi rastuvinämme auttaan syventuvampuilta
18:49:07 <HackEgo> osta ofu drough
18:49:17 <mroman> `words --german 3
18:49:21 <HackEgo> tierungsrationszys schafte ooooo
18:49:26 <elliott_> ooooo
18:49:30 <mroman> ooooo!
18:49:34 <mroman> `words --german 10
18:49:39 <HackEgo> händehn besitz cadichenhügerennahmenti dischemigungsorganie dart goeterialennenbild romethornehmentaltenringe hedrige suizialerbonde humen
18:49:42 <elliott_> that is the funniest thing `words has ever produced
18:49:45 <elliott_> ooooo
18:49:59 <mroman> besitz und dart are real words.
18:50:17 <mroman> `words --german 10
18:50:19 <elliott_> `words --english 50
18:50:21 <HackEgo> beform cblichsgewaffi haftend ingebirgenen kinerungso arrictheil phle osenentcrationenzwängi konzeugführ wirdinatur
18:50:22 <HackEgo> Unknown option: english
18:50:22 <Phantom_Hoover> besitz is obviously equivalent to the english 'besits'
18:50:22 <oerjan> that suizialerbonde is clearly on hard times
18:50:34 <mroman> haftend is also a real word :)
18:50:37 <elliott_> `words --english-1M 50
18:50:39 <HackEgo> Unknown option: english-1m
18:50:43 <elliott_> mroman: you're meant to interpret the other ones
18:50:44 <Phantom_Hoover> What does the 1M mean?
18:50:47 <elliott_> (easier in an agglutinative language)
18:50:49 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: one million
18:50:49 <mroman> oh I see.
18:50:55 <elliott_> `words 50
18:51:01 <HackEgo> pollum akhald quotehgion cov sce virger umth zozing veracored fecreying fielle depper origg weymoy farge aflat hem olar wrhydroo couperup tak exta amen flementa mythm
18:51:12 <elliott_> pollum
18:51:13 <elliott_> mythm
18:51:20 <mroman> depper sounds like destroying stuff.
18:51:25 <oerjan> schni schna cblichsgewaffi
18:51:32 <elliott_> `words --norwegian 50
18:51:36 <HackEgo> frikkvene ene rehorka gring piadentning tekirkne betakettets gruppene aborgesengen hjemmige veser ulykkelbevis bolitidelret solvestudenesoppesighet kretøyelstyr kjøttemperar teatets blyvendedunde lørdende kontria omskegaens krisligstfrier påstethets rådetssitusganiske skattlede
18:51:52 <elliott_> oerjan: tolke
18:51:55 <mroman> `words --french 10
18:52:00 <HackEgo> comprem tolorré rétre plarimasthugl ocumulai mera sexuale rémono eds kils
18:52:02 <Gregor> Norwegian? Hmm, that sounds like a made up language to me.
18:52:09 <Gregor> French? Hmm, that sounds like a made up language to me.
18:52:10 <mroman> sexuale!
18:52:20 <Vorpal> elliott_, I'm not convinced by "plarimasthugl"
18:52:44 <elliott_> which one was that from
18:52:46 <Vorpal> <Gregor> Norwegian? Hmm, that sounds like a made up language to me. <-- nah, looks fine to me
18:52:51 <Vorpal> some silly bits though
18:52:56 <Phantom_Hoover> `words --latin
18:52:56 <Vorpal> elliott_, French
18:52:59 <HackEgo> Unknown option: latin
18:53:02 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
18:53:25 <oerjan> yeah "gruppene" is clearly nonsense
18:53:44 <elliott_> `words 50
18:53:48 <Vorpal> oerjan, what about "rådetssitusganiske"?
18:53:49 <HackEgo> subsershi vervan nide free begli cort esfilk pectonlyfr bon nontile ago obsecum fcendo achener reggia fosteclick off panum line johnsgrui couve abdue cocke refen patzeroidate
18:53:57 -!- Gregor has set topic: Vive le plarimasthugl! | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
18:54:19 <oerjan> Vorpal: perfectly normal bureaucratic term
18:54:23 <elliott_> Phantom_Hoover: what's subsershi
18:54:26 <Vorpal> oerjan, meaning?
18:54:49 <boily> I'm gently idling in this channel, and suddenly the topic gets changed to "Vive le plarimasthugl!".
18:55:07 <Vorpal> boily, yes and?
18:55:15 <oerjan> it's the special mushroom that town councils consume while in situ.
18:55:19 <nortti> plarimasthugl?
18:55:21 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh okay
18:55:30 <Vorpal> nortti, read the 30 last lines or so
18:55:51 <boily> the plarimasthugl just crashed the Java mental stack I was juggling with.
18:55:55 <nortti> ok
18:56:15 <Vorpal> boily, how did you notice this if you were idling?
18:56:16 <oerjan> boily isn't very good with french, you see
18:56:51 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott_, the small-scale components of sershi.
18:57:01 <boily> Vorpal: multiple channels open, and against my better judgment I checked this one.
18:57:13 <boily> oerjan: :p
18:57:28 <oerjan> never use judgment in this channel, it can cause brain damage
18:57:32 <elliott_> ago obsecum fcendo (latin)
18:58:00 <oerjan> quidquid latine obsecum sit, altum fcenditur
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18:58:50 <elliott_> Note to self: refreshDungeonCell
18:59:04 <elliott_> Note to self: plotCharWithColor
18:59:32 <oerjan> yeah a dirty dungeon cell is just trouble
19:00:21 <elliott_> Also check whether full screen "ticks" are done anywhere; plotCharWithColor might be bad for animation. Look into what termcast and so on do.
19:00:52 <oerjan> plotCharcoalBlack
19:02:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, could you add a lot of dye to the charcoal
19:02:50 <Vorpal> so it wasn't black any more
19:03:58 <oerjan> yes but how would you ignite it when it's full of dye
19:04:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, inflammable dye obviously
19:04:57 <fizzie> Must be some sort of a dynamic dungeon, if it needs refreshing.
19:10:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
19:17:43 -!- quintopia has joined.
19:18:48 <elliott_> note to self: displayLevel
19:19:04 <elliott_> note to self: displayLoops, waitForAcknowledgement (research)
19:19:53 <elliott_> also figure out wtf plotCharToBuffer is
19:19:56 <zzo38> Do you know if you can somehow get internet on Famicom?
19:20:22 <elliott_> also note: commitDraws(), plotChar()
19:20:24 <zzo38> It may be difficult.
19:21:54 <elliott_> further notes: figure out whether platform/platformdependent.c is per-platform or not, if not look into plotChar()
19:25:27 <Vorpal> elliott_, why are you using irc as a source navigation history?
19:25:54 <elliott_> i don't want to remember another workspace number and nobody is saying anything interesting
19:45:49 <fizzie> zzo38: I think I heard something about a modem.
19:46:55 <mroman> 21:45 < monochrom> and yes I hate basic and c use "=" for assignment. x=x+1, therefore 0=1?
19:47:09 <mroman> Somebody feel the need for creating a language where assignment is ==?
19:47:18 <mroman> x==x+1
19:48:00 <shachaf> No, syntax is boring.
19:48:06 <Taneb> Hence x is infinity?
19:48:45 <Taneb> A language where assignment is done using the roots of equations?
19:51:09 -!- asiekierka has joined.
19:51:49 <mroman> A language where every program IS an equation.
19:52:10 <mroman> x+y==5 asigns 5-y to x, and 5-x to y
19:52:48 <mroman> print x==5 prints iff if it prints 5
19:52:54 <mroman> *-if
19:54:27 <Vorpal> <Taneb> Hence x is infinity? <-- or -inf?
19:54:32 <Vorpal> that should work too
19:54:37 <Taneb> It's infinite either way
19:54:42 <Vorpal> true
19:55:22 <Vorpal> anyway pascal uses := for assignment, I don't remember what it uses for equals
19:55:27 * mroman Enjoying a C,Haskell bashing in #haskell
19:55:28 <fizzie> Plain =, IIRC.
19:55:34 <Vorpal> ah
19:56:31 <mroman> Why is there no englisch word for unterjubeln o_O
19:56:41 <Taneb> What does it mean?
19:56:53 <fizzie> And Scheme = is of course equality too.
19:56:57 <Vorpal> I would like to see a realistic post-nuclear war game. Not like fallout with it's mutants. But what it would actually be like
19:57:15 <Taneb> Vorpal, like that Raymond Briggs "comic"?
19:57:23 <Vorpal> Taneb, I don't know, what is that?
19:57:29 <Taneb> When the wind blows
19:57:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is that
19:57:42 <Taneb> It's about an elderly couple in a nuclear war
19:57:42 <mroman> It means to slip somebody something
19:57:46 <mroman> or something like that.
19:57:49 <Taneb> They die of radiation poisoning
19:58:19 <Vorpal> Taneb, hm, well I was thinking set maybe 200 years after a nuclear war, people coming out of bunkers and so on.
19:58:24 <mroman> If I didn't do something
19:58:32 <mroman> but you convince other that I did
19:58:41 <mroman> then you're unterjubeln me something
19:58:42 <Taneb> Vorpal, they do come out of bunkers, just after a weekend
19:58:50 <Vorpal> Taneb, that sounds like too early
19:58:57 <Taneb> Yeah, hence why they die
19:59:00 <fizzie> to palm sth. off on sb. [coll.] [to dispose of sth.]
19:59:00 <fizzie> to pin sth. on sb. [coll.] [to lay the blame]
19:59:00 <fizzie> to plant sth. on sb. [coll.]
19:59:00 <fizzie> to slip sb. sth. [coll.] [secretively administer]
19:59:00 <fizzie> to plant sth. on sb.
19:59:04 <fizzie> If you ask one dictionary.
19:59:06 <Taneb> Raymond Briggs is not a happy man
19:59:06 <Vorpal> Taneb, right, so not very interesting
19:59:16 <Vorpal> Taneb, would plants have reclaimed the affected areas after a couple of hundred years? Or would it all be dead dead dead?
19:59:22 <Taneb> He also wrote the Snowman
19:59:23 <mroman> Or if I go to the market and the clerk charges me a tomato which I didn't buy
19:59:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, no clue what that work of fiction is either
19:59:38 <mroman> leo.org didn't have a translation.
19:59:45 <Taneb> Ask Phantom_Hoover
19:59:53 <Taneb> I've never actually seen or read it
19:59:58 <Taneb> brb
20:00:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never read the Snowman nor do I know anything of Briggs beyond the name.
20:00:43 <Vorpal> okay
20:01:08 <Vorpal> well the point remains, what would actually have happened in a situation like that of Fallout. You wouldn't have mutant two-headed cows for sure...
20:01:28 <Phantom_Hoover> As far as realistic postnuclear stuff goes, there's always Threads if you're sure you have no suicidal tendencies.
20:02:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, I would like a video game made about a realistic postnuclear setting.
20:02:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Also the unrealistic nature of Fallout comes straight from the retrofuturistic 50s style.
20:02:11 <Vorpal> and yes I'm quite happy to be alive
20:02:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, indeed it does
20:02:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is Threads a book or something found online or what?
20:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Although FWIW most of the mutants you see are actually the result of genetic engineering.
20:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> British film from the 80s.
20:02:53 <Vorpal> ah
20:02:57 <Phantom_Hoover> It's on Google videos, I think.
20:03:11 <Vorpal> google videos? Is that still around? You mean youtube right?
20:03:16 <Taneb> Back
20:03:17 <Vorpal> or do you mean their video store?
20:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ...no, I mean Google videos.
20:03:24 <Vorpal> I don't think that is available in Sweden
20:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a weird artefact, yes.
20:04:07 <Vorpal> google videos seems to be a video search engine nowdays...?
20:05:22 <Vorpal> ah it is in the process of being shutdown, and Threads seems to be on youtube
20:08:11 <itidus21> youtube, being a service which has a monopoly, capitalizes on it's monopoly by asking for mobile phone numbers during signups
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20:08:55 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, it doesn't quite have a monopoly, other hosts are used at times.
20:08:56 <itidus21> my understanding is that you can sometimes sign up without phone
20:09:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, okay I read the plot summary on Wikipedia, ouch
20:09:15 <Vorpal> yeah I see what you mean about suicidal tendencies
20:09:26 <Phantom_Hoover> They're just not as often used, largely because YouTube has a better service.
20:09:28 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway what I'm more interested in is the more long term effects
20:09:40 <itidus21> roger
20:09:41 <Vorpal> there is vimeo iirc
20:09:44 <Vorpal> and some other one
20:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> So... you mean Fallout, but realistic.
20:09:50 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, yes
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20:09:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the Snowman is where "I'm walking through the air" comes from, iirc
20:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah Vimeo seems to attract artsy people a lot for some reason.
20:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, ohhh, I thought you were talking about some post-apocalyptic thing.
20:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, again, nothing I know of for games; A Canticle for Leibowitz is a book that fits that description.
20:11:02 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh and blip.tv?
20:11:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't really know what its niche is.
20:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Viddler's used a lot for Let's Plays, possibly because it allows longer videos so you don't have to segment as aggressively.
20:12:31 <Taneb> Nah, that's When The Wind Blows
20:12:51 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, My impression is that people who do movie reviews on youtube but get screwed over by copyright infringement due to showing a 10 second clip move it to blip.tv
20:13:02 <Vorpal> the sample size is rather small for that impression though
20:13:27 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, and youtube allows multi-hour videos since a year or two
20:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> But not to default accounts.
20:14:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh I thought it did that nowdays?
20:14:24 <Vorpal> what sort of account then?
20:14:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I dunno, but I've heard repeated references to people wanting to get some kind of upgrade to upload longer videos.
20:15:00 <Vorpal> hm
20:15:27 <Phantom_Hoover> http://support.google.com/youtube/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=71673
20:15:36 <Phantom_Hoover> BtW which Fallout games have you played?
20:19:33 <itidus21> let's plays are pretty cool
20:20:08 <itidus21> much more entertaining than the 8bit game generation itself was
20:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> They're very, very subject to Sturgeon's Law though.
20:22:03 <Phantom_Hoover> The good ones, where the game is accompanied by insightful commentaries are fun; the ones that consist of someone playing through and waffling are not.
20:22:17 <kmc> itidus21: youtube is far from a monopoly
20:22:23 <kmc> once again you have no idea what you're talking about
20:22:44 <elliott_> shocking
20:22:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Well I can see why you might call it a monopoly.
20:23:00 <itidus21> !
20:23:05 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> BtW which Fallout games have you played? <-- 3 and new vegas, haven't finished either, NV was better than 3 by far. Should get around to play some of the original ones
20:23:08 <kmc> it probably has a majority market share, but far from 100%
20:23:12 <elliott_> well YouTube is probably not a monopoly in the direct sense
20:23:13 <itidus21> thats my good deed for the day
20:23:22 <elliott_> kmc: Microsoft didn't have 100% either and they were/(are?) considered a monopoly
20:23:30 <elliott_> 100% is basically never going to happen
20:23:33 <itidus21> consistancy in my faults
20:23:34 <elliott_> for anything, I suspect
20:23:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Well no, it can in some situations.
20:23:53 <Phantom_Hoover> The BBC had a monopoly on broadcasting in the UK, for instance.
20:24:22 <Phantom_Hoover> And there are any number of other infrastructural monopolies where the cost of setting up make competition very thin on the ground.
20:24:30 <elliott_> <Phantom_Hoover> The BBC had a monopoly on broadcasting in the UK, for instance.
20:24:38 <elliott_> Well OK but government-sanctioned monopolies don't really count :P
20:24:39 <Vorpal> Systembolaget has a monopoly for selling alcoholic drinks in Sweden (for drinks above a certain strength that is)
20:24:44 <elliott_> Infrastructure is a fair point, though.
20:27:52 <zzo38> What is having a monopoly? BBC/something else?
20:27:55 <shachaf> 100% market share just depends on how you define the market!
20:28:00 <shachaf> Like surjective functions.
20:28:03 <zzo38> OK
20:28:16 <mroman> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/368
20:28:17 <mroman> uaaah
20:28:19 <mroman> I hope not.
20:29:23 <mroman> And what's kvm?
20:29:57 <Vorpal> mroman, the thing that allows qemu to use hardware virtualisation is called kvm, might be a different kvm though
20:30:00 <elliott_> Nothing wrong with a Java backend.
20:30:08 <itidus21> my point of course was that for the tags <google videos> x <youtube> that was the only comment i had
20:30:15 <elliott_> There's a patch to very-old-GHC that adds one.
20:31:10 <Vorpal> there should be a haskell-98 backend, so you could compile your code using lots of GHC extensions into pure haskell-98 code
20:31:30 <elliott_> Vorpal: That would require major whole-program transformations and so on.
20:31:51 <Vorpal> elliott_, indeed
20:31:58 <Vorpal> elliott_, or stupid output
20:32:00 <Vorpal> that would work too
20:32:10 <elliott_> What?
20:32:31 <Vorpal> elliott_, like compiling it into a state machine describing the program
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20:32:42 <Vorpal> i. e. nothing even similar to the original program
20:32:55 <elliott_> That's what I'm saying it would require.
20:32:59 <Vorpal> oh okay
20:33:00 <Vorpal> right
20:33:16 <Vorpal> night
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20:39:01 <elliott_> ais523: hi
20:42:36 <Taneb> Wow, the next Muse album sounds really OTT
20:43:10 <Taneb> Even more than "Come on and swear it's something biblical" or "It's time the fat cats had a heart attack"
20:43:38 <kmc> OTT?
20:43:44 <Taneb> Over the top
20:43:54 <kmc> :)
20:44:05 <Taneb> Have you heard Survival?
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20:44:45 <Taneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYMMnHW85mc
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21:05:01 <Taneb> Well, goodnight
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21:06:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
21:08:06 <zzo38> Can they make a patch to compile Haskell codes to: MMIX, Z-machine, Glulx, Java, Z80, Famicom, brainfuck, CLC-INTERCAL, Csound, and hardware.
21:14:55 <nortti_> hardware?
21:15:15 <zzo38> I mean to build an electronic circuit
21:15:23 <itidus21> they can
21:15:41 <itidus21> but they have very peculiar priorities
21:17:52 <zzo38> What priority?
21:18:04 <itidus21> like collecting cars built by bugatti(spelling probly wrong), ferrari, and mclaren, and buying art at auction
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21:18:31 <itidus21> so they could make a patch but they don't
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21:20:00 <zzo38> What do you think is best way in Haskell for representing compiling programs which are not Haskell programs but which can be constructed and manipulated using Haskell codes?
21:20:17 <itidus21> its like, "what? put funds into the very same industry that made me rich? absurd! it defies the very rules of business"
21:21:53 -!- elliott__ has joined.
21:21:55 <elliott__> "You have an extremely simplistic view of hacking and viruses. A clever programmer can write a virus that will hop to just about any device you plug into an infected computer. So what happens is something connected to the internet gets infected. A physical device is then connected to the infected computer, becomes infected, is later removed and interfaced with a non-infected computer that isn't connected to the internet. Flash drive, hard drive, ipod
21:21:55 <elliott__> , whatever."
21:21:59 <elliott__> "Mac OSX and Linux don't automatically run scripts when you plug in a thumb drive. Only Windows does that."
21:22:03 <elliott__> "That functionality is not even remotely required for a virus to work as I described."
21:22:05 <elliott__> "How is a virus executed from a thumbdrive without use of something like autorun? If functionality such as autorun is not required how is this done?"
21:22:09 <elliott__> "Because all the files on the drive are already infected by the computer they came from. If you transfer any to the computer then the virus is on the computer."
21:22:17 <elliott__> this moron is highly upvoted btw
21:22:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:22:26 <coppro> which moron
21:22:30 <coppro> I see two
21:22:38 <coppro> or are they all the same person
21:22:41 <elliott__> coppro: it alternates
21:22:50 <elliott__> the first one is the moron; the other ones are actually separate people each time but that's irrelevant
21:23:10 <elliott__> second one(s) is (are) not dumb enough to call a moron
21:23:23 <elliott__> or rather not sure enough of themselves
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21:26:11 <pikhq> elliott__: I suppose hypothetically a sufficiently clever hacker could know of a buffer overflow in the kernel's filesystem code. ... But this moron didn't say anything of the sort.
21:28:24 <zzo38> The virus could also be made from the hardware instead of software, if a USB memory is designed to corrupt files automatically or other things can also be done like that
21:31:25 <Taneb> Hang on
21:31:29 <Taneb> I said goodnight ages ago
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21:32:44 <zzo38> They could even send keyboard/mouse commands
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21:34:18 <olsner> yay, my os can be booted as a multiboot image using qemu -kernel now
21:39:31 <zzo38> Or even do this: They make a USB computer keyboard that records everything typed in its internal memory. It has a three year warranty. However, it is designed to break in two years. When the customer returns it under warranty, they can spy on everything the user typed.
21:39:53 <nortti_> olsner: isvyour os available anywhere?
21:40:57 <olsner> nortti_: probably, but it's hardly useful for anything :)
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21:41:06 <itidus21> zzo38: it would help more if there was a law that they had to upgrade their old keyboards
21:41:52 <zzo38> I do know countermeasures against many of these things. To prevent a USB memory from sending keyboard/mouse command without your permission, you can fix the kernel to not accept a USB keyboard/mouse if there already is one connected.
21:42:06 <zzo38> (And that includes PS/2 keyboard/mouse too)
21:43:04 <itidus21> at some level your data isn't the most private thing, but rather, the identity of the user of the data
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21:43:09 <zzo38> For the keyboard break under warranty, well, if you suspect that then open it to fix it by yourself, or break it into too many pieces, or something
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21:45:55 <itidus21> i suppose i must assume that my biometric data gets collected whenever i sign a form using a stylus
21:46:19 <zzo38> If there is such a law you have to upgrade, then destroy your old one and build a new one yourself
21:46:39 <zzo38> itidus21: Well, it is possible, but it may or may not be true. Or maybe true in some cases only.
21:47:17 <itidus21> it could make signatures more reliable anyway
21:49:09 <itidus21> in any case its more and more common to sign via stylus
21:49:34 <zzo38> Yes it could make it more reliable.
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21:50:49 <zzo38> But I still sign by my pens and use extra dots and shapes and so on so that I can claim I was threatened to sign it and put those dots there to warn you, or whatever
21:51:45 <itidus21> my signature tends to be just a scribble.. lacking real consistency..
21:51:53 <elliott__> zzo38: that argument seems somehow unconvincing
21:52:01 <itidus21> so i depend on the biometrics for it to have any meaning at all
21:52:53 <zzo38> OK
21:53:00 <spirity> zzo38: the only way that would remotely have a chance of working is if it differs significantly from your normal signature.
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21:53:28 <spirity> however, if you always do that, it means it will look the same as all the other signatures
21:53:29 <itidus21> this always happens when zzo38 and itidus21 chat :P
21:53:31 <zzo38> I sign things in Japanese usually
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21:56:21 <zzo38> Both English and Japanese often
21:56:32 <spirity> yesod is very overbearing.
21:56:43 <zzo38> When I am under threat I will omit the Japanese
21:56:46 <spirity> want to do something differently from the default? GOOD LUCK.
21:59:51 <mroman> Who says you didn't just omit the Japanese to sneak your way out?
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22:00:52 <mroman> The key is to have a specific signature for every contract.
22:01:04 <mroman> That also prevents somebody from faking your signature
22:01:13 <mroman> because he doesn't know what your next signature looks like
22:01:27 <zzo38> Yes that is what I put the dots I explained for
22:01:36 <elliott__> `addquote <zzo38> But I still sign by my pens and use extra dots and shapes and so on so that I can claim I was threatened to sign it and put those dots there to warn you, or whatever
22:01:39 <HackEgo> 853) <zzo38> But I still sign by my pens and use extra dots and shapes and so on so that I can claim I was threatened to sign it and put those dots there to warn you, or whatever
22:01:44 <mroman> The problem is, that probably doesn't hold in court :D
22:02:26 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but it is worth a try if there is some kind of threat
22:02:56 <elliott__> zzo38: how often are you threatened to sign things
22:02:59 <mroman> and the best part is
22:03:03 <zzo38> Rarely
22:03:06 <mroman> You don't have to fullfil the contract.
22:03:13 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:03:19 <mroman> They can't prove that it is your signature if they have nothing to compare it.
22:03:57 <elliott__> zzo38: has it ever happened :P
22:04:06 <zzo38> Just once
22:04:25 <elliott__> that's more than I have
22:04:34 <elliott__> hmm, did google groups remove the old interface
22:04:36 <elliott__> that's annoying
22:05:28 -!- spirity has quit (Quit: leaving).
22:05:35 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:05:43 <nortti_> yeah. the new one doesn't work with links
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22:08:00 <elliott__> @tell kallisti i like how your hostname gets worse when you identify
22:08:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:09:53 -!- kallisti has joined.
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22:10:17 <mroman> I like how his connection is oscillating.
22:10:58 <olsner> hmm, so spirity is kallisti?
22:11:17 <mroman> @tell AnotherTest Do you have the source of HELP online available somewhere?
22:11:17 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:11:28 <kallisti> olsner: yes
22:11:29 <lambdabot> kallisti: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:12:07 <elliott__> spirity is a better nick than kallisti btw
22:12:15 <kallisti> I agre
22:13:04 <elliott__> then why are you using kallisti
22:13:12 <kallisti> because
22:13:18 <kallisti> backwards compatability
22:13:23 <kallisti> with existing people
22:13:30 <kallisti> but I'll probably change it soon
22:14:23 <nortti_> kallisti: btw is there anything new at spirity.org?
22:14:28 <olsner> hmm, plarimasthugl
22:14:57 <kallisti> nortti_: I have a completely empty gitweb page for privately hosted git repos.
22:15:06 <nortti_> ok
22:15:39 <elliott__> gitweb sucks btw
22:15:43 <kallisti> eventually there will be a tabletop game frontend for IRC-based tabletop gaming.
22:15:47 <kallisti> elliott__: it's... functional
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22:17:23 <elliott__> i'd probably just pay for a private github account if i wanted private repos
22:18:12 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:18:18 <kallisti> elliott__: that's what I was doing.
22:18:31 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:18:33 <kallisti> but a dedicated server allows me to do other things. might as well save so money by hosting my own.
22:18:53 <elliott__> if you take that perspective: have fun configuring qmail/postfix/...
22:19:12 <kallisti> I've got postfix set up
22:19:27 <kallisti> it.... forwards specific addresses to gmail.
22:19:28 <kallisti> :>
22:19:53 <kallisti> but yes postfix is weird to configure.
22:19:56 <elliott__> why not just use google apps
22:20:13 <kallisti> doesn't that also cost money?
22:20:31 <elliott__> no
22:20:32 <elliott__> http://www.google.com/enterprise/apps/business/pricing.html
22:20:58 <elliott__> there are some annoying issues with google apps accounts sometimes getting older version of google products or not being able to use google+ and stuff i think though, so you'll want to keep a gmail account lying around
22:21:11 <elliott__> maybe that stuff got fixed though
22:21:11 <kallisti> or 2
22:21:25 * kallisti currently has something like 6 email addresses, for absolutely no good reason.
22:21:32 <ion> You can use G+ nowadays, but i don’t think you can use Youtube yet.
22:21:46 <kallisti> ideally I wouldn't use gmail at all
22:22:05 <kallisti> as part of my "prepare for incoming google takeover of the world" plan.
22:22:27 <nortti_> umh. what?
22:22:29 <elliott__> hmm, I wonder if free google apps gives you less space than gmail
22:22:34 <elliott__> since it is marketed as 10 gigs
22:22:43 <elliott__> but gmail is 10271.676317 gigs-and-counting-at-a-stupidly-slow-rate-by-now
22:23:03 <kallisti> nortti_: I don't like the stance Google has taken since their privacy policy change.
22:23:35 <nortti_> 10 gigs? Wasn't it 5 gigs just recently
22:23:43 <kallisti> which is partially why I stopped using chrome in favor of firefox.
22:23:59 <kallisti> but I still have a google account fo gmail and youtube..
22:24:06 <nortti_> kallisti: what other email addresses you have?
22:24:37 <elliott__> kallisti: it is a bit pointless to take a stand on chrome since all its options to talk to google are disableable
22:24:52 <elliott__> and it is also open source (well, chromium, but same thing)
22:24:53 <elliott__> especially since firefox is awful
22:25:02 <kallisti> elliott__: that's probably true, but then I started liking firefox so it worked out regardless.
22:25:16 <Sgeo__> elliott__, does that include disabling autoupdates?
22:25:32 <nortti_> elliott__: how is firefox awful? well XUL but what else?
22:25:48 <elliott__> Sgeo__: chromium doesn't autoupdate
22:25:53 <elliott__> nortti_: everything
22:25:54 <kallisti> I won't attempt to argue that firefox is /better/ at /everything/, but it has some things going for it. chrome has some things going for it as well (particularly it's a bit faster with V8 and all)
22:27:01 <nortti_> I stay at my far away corner with links2, netsurf and hv3
22:27:24 <kallisti> for example, firefox has privacy extensions that aren't offered on google yet.
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22:27:57 <nortti_> also plugin achitecture was better on ff last tine I checked
22:28:09 * kallisti has 3 different extensions for blocking advertising agency trackers.
22:28:44 <nortti_> but also firefox was in version 11 last time I checked
22:28:52 <kallisti> it's fun to see how many marketing agencies are attempting to monitor your internet usage.
22:29:02 <nortti_> what version is it on now by the way?
22:29:15 <kallisti> latest stable release is 14
22:29:38 <kallisti> the version number is completely arbitrary. as of late they've started increment the major version almost every month.
22:29:41 <kallisti> *incrementing
22:29:53 <fizzie> It's once every six weeks.
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22:29:57 <kallisti> ah okay.
22:29:59 <fizzie> They have a policy about it.
22:30:51 <fizzie> Also there's some kind of a rolling scheme thing with the n+1, n+2 and maybe even n+3 (where n is current stable) having different terms for them, though I've forgotten about that. So they probably have a Firefox 17 build already existing.
22:30:56 <nortti_> oh. so ESR is 10, right
22:34:37 <fizzie> https://wiki.mozilla.org/RapidRelease/Calendar has a calendar, and it indeed was so that Firefox 17 is "central" now (while 16 is "aurora" and 15 is "beta"). They'll hit stable 18 (and "central" 21) at around the year's end.
22:35:30 <nortti_> ok
22:36:11 <fizzie> (And three digits in less than a decade.)
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22:36:53 <nortti_> I'll be getting back to using tenfourfox in few weeks. their stable is firefox ESR and their unstable is firefox stable
22:38:35 <fizzie> Every seventh Firefox (so 17, 24, ...) is an ESR release, apparently.
22:40:05 <nortti_> 3.6->10->17->24->31
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2012-07-25
00:00:16 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:54 -!- segorev has joined.
00:09:02 <segorev> yo brothers
00:09:08 <segorev> is anybody here?
00:09:14 <segorev> alarm
00:10:25 <segorev> all sleep ?
00:10:43 <segorev> i think what only in russian night now
00:10:48 <segorev> *russia
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00:11:26 <segorev> david_werecat, hi
00:11:40 <segorev> david_werecat, you hacker?
00:11:56 <david_werecat> Hello, and not really.
00:12:27 <segorev> hm.. it bad
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00:53:33 <Phantom_Hoover> omg russian Sgeo!!!!!!!
00:55:11 <Gregor> He could use some more patience…
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01:27:33 <quintopia> if he's a doctor, he could use some patients?
01:27:45 <quintopia> blah blah pay shuns
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02:30:10 <elliott> hi, monqy
02:30:26 <Phantom_Hoover> russian monqy?
02:31:04 <elliott> what's russian monqy
02:32:29 <Phantom_Hoover> обезьяна with some phonetic changes?
02:32:55 <shachaf> > cycle "monqy inside another "
02:32:56 <lambdabot> "monqy inside another monqy inside another monqy inside another monqy insid...
02:34:00 <monqy> @messages?
02:34:00 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 20 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
02:34:33 <shachaf> in soviet russia, monqy massages you
02:34:44 <elliott> an in soviet russia joke
02:34:45 <elliott> very funny shachaf
02:34:49 <elliott> where do you possibly get the material
02:34:50 <elliott> how can i learn
02:35:11 <shachaf> elliott: it's very complicated
02:35:48 <shachaf> you must be at least 23 dyalmunkts tall to make soviet russia jokes
02:36:12 <shachaf> 23 dyalmunkts = 1 year
02:38:06 <Gregor> Oh man, I could not stop laughing when I wrote “vive le plarimasthugl”, and there it is again X-D
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02:44:18 <olsner> Gregor: what does it mean?
02:44:37 <Gregor> olsner: It was a word that `words thought looked French.
02:48:22 <olsner> it seems to have a plarimasthugl idea of french
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03:19:02 <Gregor> http://codu.org/fiction/LensCap.html I wrote a short story.
03:19:33 <olsner> it does not mention plarimasthugl
03:19:42 <Gregor> Tragically, no.
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03:44:12 <quintopia> Gregor: it reminds me of this: http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1074
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03:51:28 <Gregor> >_>
03:51:30 <Gregor> <_<
03:51:32 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhh kay.
03:56:54 <Sgeo__> Phantom_Hoover.... dangit
03:57:01 <Sgeo__> I want to ask him when Red Dwarf starts to suck
03:58:15 <pikhq_> You'll know.
04:07:08 <Gregor> pikhq_: http://codu.org/fiction/LensCap.html I wrote a short story.
04:08:03 <pikhq_> Gregor: K. But first, ponies.
04:08:21 <Gregor> OK, good, you've got your priorities straight.
04:08:43 * pikhq_ is IRCing while watching, so.
04:12:33 <Gregor> pikhq_: Also, don't forget to put Ponies in your Interwebs ( http://websplat.bitbucket.org/ )
04:12:48 <Sgeo__> Where'd the extra Kryten head come from?
04:23:35 <pikhq_> *cough*
04:23:44 <Sgeo__> ?
04:23:44 <pikhq_> By your powers combined I am Captain Planet. Again.
04:24:58 <Sgeo__> Are you trying to tell me something?
04:25:05 <pikhq_> Nah, more Gregor
04:25:20 <shachaf> Hey, #esoteric!
04:25:29 <Gregor> pikhq_: Why, are you up to the Season 2 opening or something?
04:25:33 <pikhq_> Gregor: Yes.
04:25:38 <Gregor> Heh
04:25:39 <shachaf> Can you make a language that can evaluate algorithms as decribed in this? http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5060147.PN.&OS=PN/5060147&RS=PN/5060147
04:25:39 <pikhq_> Gregor: Specifically, just finished.
04:27:49 <Gregor> pikhq_: Just wait for the S2 finale ;)
04:31:57 <Sgeo__> o.O I know a girl with a name in that story
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04:37:14 <Gregor> Sgeo__: ?
04:37:39 <Sgeo__> Gregor, .
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04:54:25 <quintopia> does websplat ponies now?
04:54:46 <Gregor> Yup.
04:54:56 <quintopia> hrray!
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04:58:19 <quintopia> how come dead with two hearts left?
04:58:45 <Gregor> If you fall off the bottom of the screen, you die automatically.
04:58:49 <Gregor> Otherwise, shouldn't happen.
05:00:07 <quintopia> who did graphix?
05:00:21 <Gregor> I stole them from Adventure Ponies, so Hasbro.
05:00:47 <quintopia> what does applejack's tree accomplish
05:00:56 <Gregor> You can climb it.
05:01:52 <quintopia> pinkie appears to be overpowered
05:02:37 <Gregor> They're not intended to be balanced, it's one-player.
05:03:11 <quintopia> but you should get more points for winning with the weaker ponies
05:03:25 <quintopia> also, ponyswitcher button to change at any time
05:03:28 <quintopia> and reset button
05:03:59 <Gregor> Reset is nigh-on impossible, though for stupid reasons. Ponyswitching just isn't built into the system.
05:04:51 <Gregor> Also, the points don't matter ;)
05:05:16 <Gregor> Anyway, I now intend to make a ponified web based version of Worms, which will be multiplayer and balanced. Need time and graphical assets.
05:05:21 <quintopia> never mind the ponies game
05:05:28 <quintopia> make a web page version of Worms
05:05:33 <quintopia> yes
05:05:57 <Gregor> Well, it has to not JUST be Worms.
05:06:04 <quintopia> i think yo me and wryen are thinking identically
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05:06:15 <quintopia> i wrote that message before seeingyour message about Worms
05:06:25 <quintopia> afterwryen said antigravity pony was like worms
05:07:04 <Gregor> Is wryen… a person?
05:07:11 <quintopia> yes
05:07:21 <Gregor> Ah.
05:07:23 <quintopia> currently playing websplat with asscannon pony
05:07:48 <zzo38> I once played a color GameBoy game which is like breakout, but has both horizontal and vertical paddles, and color graphics, sound effects, all in only 1K ROM. The instructions say it even has a hidden movie.
05:08:02 <quintopia> never mind antigrav pony
05:08:09 <quintopia> asscannon pony is the most powerful
05:08:15 <Gregor> Ohhhhhhh kay, so I'm goin' to sleep, but yeah, Worms at some point X-D
05:08:42 <quintopia> where's the reddit thread for this
05:09:10 <zzo38> The smallest (and only) GameBoy game I made is 3K, but it is monochrome and has no sound effects, and has 256 levels in total so most of the ROM space is taken up by the level data.
05:09:21 <Gregor> quintopia: http://www.reddit.com/r/mylittlepony/comments/wrz8a/ponies_in_your_interwebs_ponies_on_any_web_page/
05:09:26 <zzo38> (It is a clone of StroQ but not ll the same levels)
05:15:55 <Sgeo__> pikhq, I have to know if this is a permanent cast change
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05:17:32 <pikhq> Sgeo__: ?
05:17:53 <Sgeo__> In season 7
05:18:02 <Sgeo__> Maybe I should just watch the next episode
05:19:28 <pikhq> I think you're *past* where it sucks
05:20:13 <zzo38> How would you do if you are the President of United States? (even if you do not live in United States)
05:20:48 <zzo38> First thing I would do is try to figure out why this happen, especially since I am Canadian.
05:20:56 <pikhq> zzo38: Poorly. I have no tolerance for bullshit.
05:26:13 <Sgeo__> What happened to the laugh track?
05:32:29 <zzo38> Do you think the Gregorian calendar is difficult to learn, has no sync with the moon, days of week do not stay in sync with days of the month, and does not accurately track the equinoxes and solstices? I think at least the last three is correct, although the third (about days of week) I think is not important and is perhaps better the way it is anyways.
05:43:11 <pikhq> Personally, I feel we should change the Earth's orbit so we can have decimal time.
05:44:19 <zzo38> I say we shouldn't mix up the solar system like that.
05:44:42 <pikhq> Oh, if we're going to mix up the *solar system* I have a much better idea.
05:44:55 <pikhq> Well, I guess it's Freeman Dyson's idea.
05:45:23 <zzo38> This is what I would do if being President of United States: ...
05:45:38 <zzo38> First I would wonder what happened and how I got there especially since I am Canadian. I would probably just make my own breakfast. I would ensure my own personal money is kept separate from the government's money. I would try to abolish the DMCA and overturn some court cases. I would try to abolish the patent office. ...
05:45:46 <zzo38> I would try to make more so the government is not so secret from others. I would try to make it illegal to bribe the government. I would ask people to vote whether they want me as President of the United States, and what policies they want, so that we can have proper democracy.
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05:47:37 <zzo38> pikhq: Freeman Dyson's idea to do what, specifically?
05:48:53 <pikhq> zzo38: Dyson sphere.
05:49:49 <zzo38> OK, I looked it up on Wikipedia.
06:04:49 <Sgeo__> pikhq, why would you need to change the orbit to have decimal time?
06:05:05 <pikhq> Sgeo__: So you could have a round number of days in a solar year!
06:05:07 <Sgeo__> I was thinking maybe so you'd have some units equal in old and new time, but I don't quite see how it would work
06:05:07 <Sgeo__> Oh
06:05:30 <Sgeo__> I thought you meant as in unit x is 10 unit y etc
06:05:45 <Sgeo__> Oh, yeah, non-integer days in a year would still break that
06:07:35 <zzo38> I do not think it is much of a problem. You can still use units such as dekaseconds and kiloseconds and so on if you like to do so. To track moon, solstices, and equinoxes, you can use a horoscope (you can also view the moon with a telescope, although you would use an ephemeris if you wanted to calculate ahead of time).
06:07:41 <zzo38> But you still shouldn't mix up the solar system.
06:08:14 <zzo38> And at least we do now have Gregorian calendar instead of the older Julian calendar; John Dee also wanted to have the Gregorian calendar despite hating the Pope.
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06:12:53 <zzo38> You can also use UNIX timestamps or Julian day numbers.
06:14:31 <zzo38> Or use Planck times......
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06:49:35 <shachaf> kmc: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2004/12/15/313250.aspx
06:49:48 <shachaf> @localtime kmc
06:49:49 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Wed Jul 25 02:50:37 2012
06:49:51 <shachaf> Oh, I guess that's wrong.
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07:33:46 <mroman> @localtime mroman
07:33:49 <lambdabot> Local time for mroman is Wed Jul 25 09:33:46 2012
07:34:27 <mroman> @localtime lambdabot
07:34:28 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
07:34:33 <mroman> Yes!
07:39:16 <fizzie> lambdabot: Your local time should obviously be that Swatch Internet Time.
07:39:20 <fizzie> The "beat time".
07:40:15 <fizzie> It's now @361 .beats, I believe.
07:41:03 <fizzie> It's Internet because it's got @s and .s in it.
07:43:55 <shachaf> If I have (in C++) a templated function which turns into the exact same code for two different instantiations, should I expect g++ to combine the generated code for them?
07:45:34 <fizzie> I wouldn't expect that, but I guess miracles can always happen.
07:47:05 <pikhq> shachaf: gcc doesn't even merge identical jump tables.
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07:48:01 <AnotherTest> Hello
07:48:01 <lambdabot> AnotherTest: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:48:34 <shachaf> Microsoft's compiler apparently does it. :-(
07:49:09 <fizzie> Spam quote of the day: "You must be very discrete in the area of confidentiality".
07:49:12 <AnotherTest> mroman: I'll put it online somewhere later today ;)
07:49:30 <AnotherTest> (github probably)
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07:57:38 <oerjan> yeah continuous confidentiality just won't do
07:58:32 <ion> The Ministry of Silly Walks approves. http://gizmodo.com/5928737/this-must-be-the-stupidest-way-to-fire-one-of-the-worlds-deadliest-cannons
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08:07:10 <mroman> AnotherTest: http://eso.mroman.ch/cgi/burlesque.cgi?q={qu+in+e.}
08:07:16 <mroman> Now with fancy highlighting :)
08:10:15 <AnotherTest> :)
08:10:26 <mroman> http://eso.mroman.ch/cgi/burlesque.cgi?q={%27c+5.6+7+%22HELLO%22}
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08:19:58 <Taneb> Hello
08:30:57 <Taneb> :k Const
08:30:58 <lambdabot> * -> * -> *
08:31:03 <Taneb> :k (:<)
08:31:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `:<'
08:31:09 <Taneb> :k Cofree
08:31:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class `Cofree'
08:31:14 <Taneb> :<
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08:55:08 <itidus21> :)
08:55:26 <itidus21> :D (:o)
08:55:33 <oerjan> :?
08:57:37 <Taneb> :t (:<)
08:57:38 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `:<'
08:57:42 <Taneb> @hayoo (:<)
08:57:42 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
08:58:01 <oerjan> @hoogle (:<)
08:58:01 <lambdabot> Data.Sequence (:<) :: a -> Seq a -> ViewL a
08:58:23 <Taneb> Not the :< I am looking for
08:58:50 <oerjan> that's what they all say
08:59:05 <Taneb> @hackage free
08:59:05 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/free
08:59:19 <Taneb> Control.Comonad.Free
08:59:22 <Taneb> *Cofree
08:59:34 <Taneb> I was wondering if lambdabot had it
09:02:25 <mroman> Heh.
09:02:44 <mroman> The cookbook is finished :)
09:02:49 <AnotherTest> yay!
09:02:51 <mroman> but not finnished this time.
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09:06:08 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/cookbook/
09:06:35 <mroman> Warning: Content could be satiric.
09:07:18 <mroman> or whatever the right englisch word for that is.
09:07:28 <Deewiant> mroman: Typo: "stock" instead of "stack"
09:07:59 <mroman> Oops :D. Thanks.
09:09:56 <AnotherTest> mroman: typo "list of value" should probably be "list of values" (in Understanding Blocks)
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09:10:08 <elliott> fizzie: is "Mikee" a finnish first name
09:10:11 <elliott> oklopol: you may also answer
09:10:42 <Deewiant> elliott: Not as far as I know.
09:10:52 <elliott> thank you
09:10:55 <elliott> however i did not solicit your response
09:10:58 <Taneb> Deewiant, you are neither fizzie nor oklopol!
09:11:13 <elliott> however i will accept it anyway
09:11:19 <Deewiant> I was just making a comment, it was not intended as a replacement for fizzie/oklopol
09:11:43 <elliott> Deewiant: the alleged Mikee points me to http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Mikee
09:12:03 <Deewiant> The statistics are descriptive
09:12:06 <Deewiant> And I must go now
09:12:08 <Deewiant> -->
09:12:48 <elliott> Deewiant: he claims it is short for mikael
09:13:14 <mroman> there is also a type in "compares pops". Fixed that.
09:13:38 <mroman> *typo
09:13:44 <mroman> I make typos in spelling typo :(
09:13:57 <mroman> The typo in the typo would make a great movie title.
09:14:53 <AnotherTest> mroman: what other features do you plan on adding?
09:17:52 <mroman> More builtins
09:17:57 <mroman> especially string manipulation
09:18:01 <mroman> and golfing stuff :)
09:18:28 <mroman> Then I'll try to get my language accepted for golf.shinh.org :)
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09:21:04 <mroman> I'm not planning on adding actual features
09:21:20 <mroman> That's the mistake I did with Stlang.
09:21:31 <mroman> It has useless features like OOP and stuff ;)
09:21:42 <mroman> well, useless. Depends of course.
09:21:53 <mroman> But it made the language bloat :)
09:22:35 <mroman> Some colleagues of me dared me to add OOP in stlang :D
09:25:20 <mroman> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/66953/golfscript-in-codegolf-on-so-cheating-or-not :D:D:D
09:25:32 <mroman> "I think, that Golfscript is unuseful, and it's not a language at all."
09:25:43 <mroman> "It's a kind of Ruby library (proof - http://www.golfscript.com/golfscript/golfscript.rb),"
09:25:48 <mroman> OMG, HE proof!
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09:26:50 <fizzie> Oh no, I'm too late.
09:26:59 <mroman> Elliott hates me :(
09:27:08 <fizzie> Anyway, you can search for Finnish given-name statistics at http://verkkopalvelu.vrk.fi/Nimipalvelu/default.asp?L=3
09:27:54 <fizzie> I haven't heard of anyone called Mikee, though there are very many Mikas and Mikaels.
09:28:42 <fizzie> Also some Miikas and Miikkas.
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09:29:39 <elliott> fizzie: I hear it was short for Mikael.
09:29:43 <elliott> Also I don't hate people.
09:29:46 <fizzie> I'm sure some Mikael could have a nickname "Mikee", even though it sounds pretty weird.
09:30:09 <fizzie> Nobody has it as an official name according to the gummint, though.
09:30:27 <kallisti> I think while I'm waiting to get my license renewed today, I'll finish up my new esolang interpreter.
09:30:31 <kallisti> and write up a spec.
09:30:32 <fizzie> "Mikke" is a name that exists, also.
09:30:43 <kallisti> or maybe read a book.
09:30:45 <kallisti> I don't know.
09:30:58 <fizzie> About 360s Mikkes listed in the Registry.
09:31:08 <fizzie> Or maybe it's the System.
09:31:13 <fizzie> The Population Information System.
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09:33:02 <kallisti> I may or may not have taken the concept of dupdog and modified it to the point that it's turing complete, without feeling really cheap.
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10:07:25 <itidus21> ya hahahahah
10:07:37 <Taneb> Hello
10:07:58 <itidus21> <-- possibly over excited about dupdog?
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10:23:53 <Taneb> Okay, expanding on what I have previously written
10:24:16 <Taneb> Many monads can be made using the base monad Foo a b c = Foo (a -> b)
10:24:27 <Taneb> Const a = Foo () a
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10:24:37 <Taneb> Empty = Foo () ()
10:24:43 <Taneb> (Foo needs a better name)
10:25:13 <Taneb> (Actually, it's stupid)
10:31:33 <Vorpal> Taneb, what is Foo?
10:31:47 <Taneb> newtype Foo a b c = Foo (a -> b)
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10:51:07 <itidus21> i think i like math a little bit. it's always pleasant to see how things can be more fully understood by trying to approach them more mathematically
10:54:58 <itidus21> eh..
10:55:17 <itidus21> but now i will say the part that will get people fuming
10:55:45 <itidus21> so i often wonder what is it which someone like gauss does so well exactly
10:56:34 <AnotherTest> his brains I think
10:56:46 <itidus21> i know it's not something you can acquire at a gym, and it's something which money will only slightly help until a threshhold
10:57:09 <mroman> Taneb: Isn't that the definition of Void?
10:57:27 <Taneb> the definition of Void is "data Void", I think
10:57:51 <mroman> Hm no @() ()
10:58:01 <itidus21> just for the sake of consistency, i mean that after some arbitrary figure such as $500,000 then any more money won't really aid in a persons education
10:58:04 <mroman> Taneb: And it's data Void = Void Void
10:58:08 <elliott> no it's not
10:58:15 <Taneb> That defeats the point of Void
10:58:18 <elliott> it's "newtype Void = Void Void"
10:58:18 <mroman> or Void !Void
10:58:25 <elliott> which is equivalent to "data Void" in haskell 2010
10:58:30 <elliott> but the latter is not possible in haskell 98
10:58:59 <Taneb> The point of Void is it has zero possible values.
10:59:01 <itidus21> and it's not simply a matter of having a powerful memory, or is it? exactly how far one can get on the strength of memory alone is unclear to me
10:59:09 <Taneb> Foo () () a has one possible value
10:59:12 <Taneb> Foo id
10:59:32 <itidus21> but i personally don't believe that memory, no matter how powerful can make you gauss
11:02:15 <AnotherTest> itidus21: maybe it's just genetics? However, I'm not sure whether his brains have a different physical structure.
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11:04:10 <fizzie> AnotherTest: Well, there's the fact that they work with positrons...
11:04:30 <AnotherTest> Yes, but is that the reason?
11:04:42 <fizzie> It's a different physical structure, at least.
11:04:48 <AnotherTest> ititdus21: I don't think the speed at which you can remember / calculate things is that important.
11:05:03 <fizzie> (At least according to the so-called "Positronic Gauss" theory.)
11:05:17 <AnotherTest> I think it's the speed at which you can connect to things with each other.
11:05:50 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
11:06:05 <AnotherTest> no idea why asimov decided that the brains would have to be Positronic too
11:06:40 <Taneb> Picnic time, bye
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11:06:58 <itidus21> uh, ask elliott
11:07:24 <fizzie> AnotherTest: I think officially because it sounded more sci-fi. (At least his intro to one of the short story collections said as much.)
11:08:54 <AnotherTest> mroman: # something (\d+) := $1 something
11:08:54 <AnotherTest> something 10
11:09:07 <AnotherTest> (that becomes 10 something)
11:09:28 <AnotherTest> (I'll make a git after I had lunch)
11:10:55 <itidus21> (now i'm getting really offensive) ok put another way what i am asking is, whether math is like a million monkeys typing, and occasionally one of them has reams of breakthroughs and things named after him/her
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11:12:42 <itidus21> that just doesn't make sense since it implies the monkey didn't merely get lucky like a lottery winner
11:13:15 <itidus21> but rather like all the lottery winners had eventually won the jackpot, say > 5 times in their life
11:14:09 <itidus21> like somehow they are defying any sort of odds
11:15:47 <itidus21> is it that the system can't handle too many such people?
11:18:15 <itidus21> or maybe there is a decreasing amount of things to discover, and an increasing number of people working to discover them
11:22:36 <itidus21> <AnotherTest> I think it's the speed at which you can connect to things with each other. -- is this related to art?
11:26:07 <itidus21> i think that constraining connections to those where a logical connection is clear can be a problem
11:27:18 <itidus21> but then i'm wacked out of my mind
11:27:20 <mroman> AnotherTest: Cool.
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12:03:37 <AnotherTest> itidus21: maybe. Although there are many forms of art (I think thinking can be an art, it doesn't have to be manual)
12:04:33 <AnotherTest> oh he left
12:08:26 <Sgeo__> Finished season 7
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12:16:40 <itidus21> hmm
12:18:11 <itidus21> so, if i have a repeating sequence say 56777..., what happens if i try to say 1234(56777...)(56777...)(56777...)...
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12:20:33 <itidus21> probably there is no simple answer to this that i would need to know
12:20:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oh dear
12:21:07 <itidus21> i guess it's a generalization of, 12333...4
12:21:39 <itidus21> which is missing the whole point of the ...
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12:33:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what happened?
12:33:41 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21 started talking
12:33:45 <Vorpal> oh right
12:33:59 <Phantom_Hoover> fortunately he stopped
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13:13:59 <elliott> fizzie: Deewiant: Hey, what's a simple way to set up an FD (from a BSD socket later but a file now) with non-blocking reads?
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13:17:56 <fizzie> long flags = fcntl(fd, F_GETFL); fcntl(fd, F_SETFL, flags | O_NONBLOCK); or some-such, maybe.
13:18:38 <elliott> fizzie: :/
13:18:41 <elliott> fizzie: What about on, uh, Windows?
13:18:53 <elliott> (Isn't there a way to open a file in non-blocking mode?)
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13:19:22 <AnotherTest> mroman: https://github.com/AnotherTest/HELP
13:19:29 <fizzie> Yeah, that was the "turn it on post-creation" approach. You can | O_NONBLOCK to the second argument of open(2), too.
13:19:45 <fizzie> I'm not so sure about Windows, though.
13:20:00 <elliott> fizzie: Thanks.
13:20:09 <elliott> I'll wait for Deewiant for Windows since didn't he do mcmap's Windows socket stuff?
13:20:14 <AnotherTest> mroman: link with libboost_regex and -std=c++11
13:23:21 <fizzie> elliott: unsigned long yes = 1; ioctlsocket(s, FIONBIO, &yes); is what you'd have done in some winsock versions, but that place is a bit of a mess. (I don't think sockets and files are quite so interchangeable in Windows.)
13:24:37 <elliott> Anyway, OK, this should be, uh.
13:24:40 <elliott> Easy? I... guess.
13:25:01 <fizzie> (According to infallible SO, before POSIX standardized fcntl O_NONBLOCK, there used to be ioctl FIONBIO and fcntl O_NDELAY to do the same thing, with all kinds of amusing incompatibilities and discrepancies between them.
13:25:03 <elliott> fizzie: (And is there a way to figure out "reading from this file wouldn't block" without actually reading from it?)
13:25:44 <fizzie> You can of course poll/select it, if you mean the "figure out for the very next read call" way.
13:25:49 <fizzie> There's a select for sockets in winsock.
13:26:12 <fizzie> And of course Windows-API ways to do it too, presumably.
13:26:25 <elliott> fizzie: Ugh, well. I guess poll/select would work.
13:26:29 <elliott> So heavyweight for a simple check though.
13:26:54 <elliott> If only there was a poll1 or such.
13:28:45 <olsner> there's an fcntl to ask for the number of bytes readable
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13:28:58 <olsner> or maybe it was an ioctl
13:29:39 <elliott> That sounds more awful. :(
13:29:47 <fizzie> "Socket APIs will return WSA errnos, rather than the standard ones (e.g. WSAEWOULDBLOCK, although Windows also has EWOULDBLOCK). Except when they don't. Refer to MSDN." Lovable.
13:31:51 <olsner> they would've been better off not even trying to emulate those unix apis
13:32:31 <fizzie> Currently it just makes people go all "they're *so* close I think if I squeeze a bit I can just use the same code".
13:32:48 <elliott> fizzie: Can you fix this codebase?
13:32:51 <elliott> It uses event polling and oh.
13:33:35 <fizzie> olsner: I wouldn't count on FIONREAD to (a) work on Windows' socket-ioctl-alike or (b) work on all kinds of fds in general, anyway.
13:34:26 <fizzie> Huh, what do I know: ioctlsocket in fact does do FIONREAD.
13:35:13 <fizzie> (Might still be better with a select.)
13:35:55 <elliott> I guess I can just use read directly into a global buffer. Ugh. Ugh. UGH.
13:37:31 <fizzie> Guh, it's SO HOT.
13:38:03 <fizzie> Us nordics should say out of these kinds of southern desert countries such as e.g. Belgium.
13:38:10 <fizzie> It's like 28 Celsoids.
13:38:55 <elliott> It's about degrees here.
13:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> WTF are you talking about, the average summer high in Helsinki is like 22 degrees.
13:39:09 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, and this is like six more.
13:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> HOW DO YOU LIVE
13:39:27 <Gregor> fizzie: The high today in this town is 37C.
13:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, are you a magma being
13:40:14 <fizzie> (Actually for the previous three weeks it's been around 12-18 degrees and mostly rainy here, it's just this particular week; and to be honest, there's often a single hot week in a Finnish summer too.)
13:41:03 <fizzie> Two-digit temperatures that start with 3 (let alone 4) are scary.
13:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> do you all sit in your saunas eagerly awaiting the Hot Week
13:41:22 <fizzie> I think we just sit around complaining.
13:41:32 <fizzie> "Oh, it's been such a miserable summer."
13:41:36 <olsner> Two-digit temperatures that start with 3!? Isn't that like above the melting point of humans?
13:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> are you sure you aren't british
13:41:49 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, but not magma beings.
13:42:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Their melting point is well into the high 50s.
13:42:10 <olsner> south europeans are magma beings
13:42:36 <Vorpal> hm, does anyone know a tool to find differences between sets of files? With that I mean if I have two sets of files (A and B) each containing several files with some differences I want to find the set of differences such that the difference is not a difference of the files within set A or B but only between them
13:42:51 <Vorpal> oh and the files are binary files, so standard diff and such are pretty useless
13:43:08 <fizzie> It is currently +49 degrees Celsius in Kut, Irak.
13:43:40 <fizzie> The (Finnish) weather site I use has this handy "hot and cold spots around the world" info-box.
13:43:43 <Vorpal> it is like +27 C here, it is terrible
13:43:52 <fizzie> So you can be all "I'm glad I'm not there".
13:45:16 <Vorpal> anyway, does anyone know a good way to do that sort of comparison?
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13:46:21 <olsner> Vorpal: I'm not sure what the question is, but maybe you want to e.g. take the md5sum of each file and compare the sets of sums of the sets of files
13:46:50 <olsner> err, I mean "I'm not sure what the question is, but maybe you want to e.g. google it"
13:47:01 <fizzie> I'm not entirely sure what you wanted either. All differences between A1-B1, A1-B2, A1-B3, ..., A1-Bm, A2-B1, A2-B2, ..., An-B1, ..., An-Bm where |A|=n and |B|=m?
13:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It's 19 here, and it's a warm day.
13:47:46 <AnotherTest> fizzie: that's actually extraordinary; we normally have much lower tempratures
13:48:09 <fizzie> AnotherTest: So I've heard. It's so extraordinary some of the people here are going camping.
13:48:34 <AnotherTest> global warming!
13:48:41 <olsner> Vorpal: if what you want is to know how similar the aarch64 (arm64) code is to the arm code in the linux kernel, that comparison has already been done
13:49:14 <fizzie> 10-day gue.. uh, I mean, predictions suggest that Friday's the last warm day.
13:49:23 <fizzie> Coincidentally, that's when we're going home.
13:50:28 <Phantom_Hoover> AnotherTest, hardly the globe.
13:50:49 <AnotherTest> I'm leaving for vacation Friday :)
13:51:04 <AnotherTest> Phantom_Hoover: true
13:51:07 <olsner> I dreamt about having a discussion where someone claimed the days of the week were sunday, monday, ..., sunday
13:51:29 <olsner> i.e. 8 day weeks with two days having the same name
13:52:03 <fizzie> Sunday_1 and Sunday_2.
13:52:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Sunday and Sunday'.
13:52:56 <fizzie> It sounds quite confusing, especially since the Sunday of one week is right adjacent to a Sunday' of another.
13:53:17 <olsner> it's possible that they meant that each sunday is in two weeks at the same time
13:53:35 <olsner> or more likely, they were idiots
13:54:03 <AnotherTest> So would, after a year, Sunday be Sunday'?
13:54:06 <itidus21> olsner: perhaps you are tired of having days and months named after celestial beings and gods who don't seem to get discussed often lately
13:54:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No, they were Romans.
13:54:24 <AnotherTest> s/Sunday be Sunday'/Sunday' be Sunday/
13:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> (Romans had 8-day weeks but counted inclusively so they said the weekly market was every ninth day.
13:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> *)
13:55:08 <olsner> the song "sunday bloody sunday" is in fact about a mixup over the two sundays
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13:57:15 <fizzie> While "Sundae, bloody sundae" is the lamentation of a dessertmaker.
13:57:28 <fizzie> Or possibly a mishap with a blender.
13:57:30 <fizzie> Either-or.
13:57:38 <olsner> well, both
13:57:47 <olsner> the dessertmaker's mishap with the blender
13:58:28 <fizzie> Is that the suicide song? No, that's Gloomy Sunday.
14:00:21 <olsner> the chorus of sunday bloody sunday is funny in swedish
14:00:50 <olsner> it sounds like they're singing "little negros in the sand" in a southern-swedish accent
14:03:56 <fizzie> Hey, it's also the cold stone day today.
14:04:20 <olsner> a ceremonial freezing of magma people?
14:05:50 <fizzie> A Finnish folklore that today Jaakko casts a cold stone to the sea (and/or your local lake), causing it to cool down, signifying that summer's about to start ending, and the swimming season's going to be over.
14:05:58 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover, olsner: Y'know, although 37C is a typical high in the summer, -23C is a typical low in the winter.
14:06:19 <fizzie> Thanks to calendarical confusion, the day's a bit earlier than it should.
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14:06:31 <Gregor> Muahahahaha
14:06:33 <Gregor> `welcome hughfdjackson
14:06:34 <fizzie> Gregor: Must be inconvenient for you magma beings.
14:06:38 <HackEgo> hughfdjackson: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:06:46 <Gregor> fizzie: It really is!
14:06:54 <hughfdjackson> :D cheers
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14:18:24 <kallisti> is there any evidence that the universe isn't a closed system?
14:18:43 <kallisti> i.e. heat death might not occur.
14:21:24 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover, olsner: Y'know, although 37C is a typical high in the summer, -23C is a typical low in the winter.
14:21:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, that's just wierd.
14:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> *weird
14:21:44 <itidus21> magmar will rise again...
14:22:12 <itidus21> ^ /s/magmar will rise again.../magmar magmar/
14:22:59 <olsner> the itch king of magmar
14:24:23 <itidus21> :3 "According to IGN, its English name is derived from the word "magma"."
14:24:57 <itidus21> who the hell wrote that
14:25:08 <itidus21> i have to see what other edits they made
14:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't bother, it always turns out to be some IP.
14:28:52 <itidus21> User:New Age Retro Hippie
14:29:21 <itidus21> i just think it's funny... it's probably not contrary to fact
14:29:55 <itidus21> lol... goals.. 1. Create articles for every character in Punch-Out!! for Wii.
14:30:57 <itidus21> Thanks for all the work you did in making Rugrats: Search for Reptar a certified "Good Article"! Your work is much appreciated.
14:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Impressive.
14:34:09 <fizzie> Is "repmat" a thing in some thing?
14:34:18 <fizzie> (It's a Matlab function, but I mean otherwise.)
15:00:20 <tswett> Sgeo_: hey, how do you feel about forming a sort of Agoran partnership?
15:00:48 <tswett> I'll say "Machiavelli agrees that from now until further notice, all messages published by Sgeo are also published by Machiavelli", and then you'll say something similar.
15:01:52 <elliott> "if i am sgeo, i transfer all my possessions to tswett then deregister"
15:02:16 <tswett> I'd state that as "Sgeo transfers all his possessions to Machiavelli and then deregisters."
15:02:46 <tswett> Naturally, it doesn't work unless we trust each other not to be dicks.
15:06:09 <Gregor> I know I trust anyone with a good, solid name like Machiavelli to not be a dick.
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16:41:00 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: I'm not sure what the question is, but maybe you want to e.g. take the md5sum of each file and compare the sets of sums of the sets of files <-- I want to find specific offsets in the files for the differences
16:41:11 <Vorpal> <olsner> Vorpal: if what you want is to know how similar the aarch64 (arm64) code is to the arm code in the linux kernel, that comparison has already been done <-- nope
16:41:41 <Vorpal> olsner, basically I want to reverse engineer which byte in a binary file contains a specific flag
16:41:48 -!- itidus21 has changed nick to honest_niccolo.
16:41:53 <Vorpal> there are however always going to be other differences between the different files
16:41:59 <Vorpal> thus I need to filter those out
16:42:05 <Vorpal> and just find the one I'm interested in
16:42:59 <Vorpal> thus I would have two sets of files, one set with the flag set, and one set with it unset. There would in all cases be a number of other differences between the files. So I want to find the byte that differs /between/ the sets but not /inside/ each set
16:43:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, ^
16:43:16 <zzo38> How can you find out such a flag?
16:43:30 <zzo38> What kind of flag is this anyways?
16:43:32 <Vorpal> (sorry for going afk, got an important call and have to leave immediately)
16:43:56 <honest_niccolo> maybe i am ...ST_NIC...
16:43:56 <Vorpal> <zzo38> How can you find out such a flag? <-- that is what I'm asking
16:43:58 <fizzie> Vorpal: Do you mean all the files are of the same size or what?
16:44:04 <elliott> honest_niccolo: me 2
16:44:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yes indeed they are
16:44:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, the file is basically a huge struct as far as I can tell
16:44:23 <Vorpal> <zzo38> What kind of flag is this anyways? <-- boolean
16:44:52 <zzo38> I mean, what is it measuring?
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16:45:13 <Vorpal> zzo38, if a specific feature is enabled or not.
16:45:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, you know, what I want to do is kind of similar to those "find cheat" features in zsnes and so on, except on binary files
16:45:59 <Vorpal> I mean, the same sort of algorithm would work
16:46:55 -!- good_guy_machiav has changed nick to itidus21.
16:46:59 <fizzie> Well, it would at least be an approximation, if you fed to the algorithm always one file from set A and then set B alternatingly.
16:47:30 <zzo38> Yes those kind of cheat finder is one idea
16:47:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm? Do all the files in set a and select "same value", Do the same for set b. Then look for "differs" between those sets
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> mroman: # while\s+(.*)do(.*)od := {\2} {\1} w!
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> # \n :=
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> # \s{2,} :=
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> 50
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> while 5 .> do
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> ^^
16:47:58 <AnotherTest> 1 .-
16:47:59 <AnotherTest> od
16:48:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway it is fairly easy to write the software to do this, I just wondered if anything existed already
16:48:33 <Vorpal> (I would probably write it in erlang btw)
16:51:01 <Vorpal> at least it would make it dead trivial to adapt the algorithm if it turned out to be part of a bitfield
16:52:43 <fizzie> Doing all files in set X with "same value" will only find you the offsets that are "fixed" throughout set X. It doesn't really sound like comparing those lists directly will help all that much. You want to find the masks of fixed bytes, take the & of them, and then considering only bytes in that find the ones in which there is a difference for each pair (a,b) with a in A, b in B.
16:53:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I expect the byte I'm looking for to be fixed in each set.
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16:53:46 <fizzie> Sure, but you also want to consider only bytes that always differ when you look across-set.
16:54:01 <fizzie> Of course I don't know what your files are like.
16:54:44 <Vorpal> binary blobs
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16:54:58 <fizzie> I mean, whether just finding the fixed bytes is enough.
16:55:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway I'm surprised this sort of software doesn't exist. It would seem like the ideal way to find stuff like which byte contains the flag for "this phone has a locked SIM". Which is kind of similar to what I'm trying to find.
16:55:34 <fizzie> But if files of set A contain A000000 and A000111, and set B has B000000 and B000111, finding the fixed bytes of both sets would give you a mask like 1111000 while you really only want 1000000.
16:55:48 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to scampumpkin.
16:56:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, err why are you not comparing the values when comparing between the sets?
16:56:48 <Vorpal> you need to use "differs" for the between-set comparsion
16:56:55 <Vorpal> comparison*
16:59:12 <Vorpal> you just use two equally long binary strings in memory for each set. One is the data of the first file, the other is the mask. For each file in the same set you compare and update the mask. Then when you compare between sets you compare again but this time you instead looks for where they differ rather than for where they are the same
16:59:39 <fizzie> Yes, that is what I would do.
16:59:46 <fizzie> I just didn't really catch your "differs" thing.
17:00:17 <Vorpal> the most elegant way would be to consider each new file a new set, and then simply offer two merging operations between set: "mask-same" and "mask-different"
17:02:28 <Vorpal> if we do this bitwise, then updating the mask is very easy. If we assign 0 to mean masked out (thus the mask starts out at all 1) then the new mask becomes (for "must be the same" case): newmask = m1 & m2 & ~(d1 ^ d2), no?
17:02:40 <Vorpal> where m is mask, and d is data
17:03:06 <Vorpal> and you would remove the bitwise not for the "must be different" case obviously
17:03:23 <Vorpal> I love bitwise operations
17:03:33 <fizzie> I don't know what m1 and m2 are.
17:03:44 <Vorpal> mask from old set 1 and mask from old set 2
17:03:49 <Vorpal> same for d = data
17:04:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, since there is no point is not generalising both operations to not work between sets
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17:05:34 <fizzie> Well, okay, but you can't sensibly define the "new data" for the "must be different" case.
17:05:55 <Vorpal> well okay
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17:06:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, actually the data is then meaningless since we know that that bit is either 0 or 1.
17:06:53 <Vorpal> you could add a third mask to represent this I guess
17:07:23 <Vorpal> don't see the point for my usage
17:14:13 * coppro grumbles about having to use e2fsck -c -c
17:15:09 <Vorpal> coppro, -c -c?
17:15:52 <coppro> Vorpal: rtfm
17:16:24 <Vorpal> coppro, my manual only says what happens if you use it once
17:16:36 <Vorpal> coppro, so that doesn't help at all
17:16:46 <coppro> Vorpal: do a non-destructive read-write test
17:16:52 <Vorpal> ah
17:17:02 <coppro> to find stealth bad block
17:17:04 <coppro> *blocks
17:17:34 <fizzie> Vorpal: Your man page really doesn't have the "If this option is specified twice, then the bad block scan will be done using a non-destructive read-write test." bit?
17:18:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, nope
17:18:29 <fizzie> That's a pretty crummy man page.
17:18:31 <coppro> ^
17:19:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, it actually seems they cut out a bit because that section ends with "If this option is specified"
17:19:07 <Vorpal> guess it is a bug fixed in newer versions
17:19:16 <Vorpal> this laptop is running a pretty old distro
17:19:33 <fizzie> That was from Ubuntu 10.10.
17:19:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is very new
17:19:41 <fizzie> The "perfect ten", I think it was called.
17:19:46 <fizzie> It's not very new.
17:19:46 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have 10.04
17:19:59 <fizzie> Yeah, it's just six months newer.
17:20:46 <fizzie> (I don't really know why they didn't stick with the LTS, but then also didn't keep updating things.)
17:21:03 <fizzie> (Though they do have a 12.04 installation rolling out, I believe.)
17:21:25 <Vorpal> who are they
17:21:43 <coppro> fizzie's evil overlord
17:21:48 <fizzie> People at regular-work.
17:22:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, Finland then?
17:22:17 <fizzie> Yeah.
17:22:27 <fizzie> Let's see what they have at temporary-work.
17:22:40 <fizzie> Except I don't remember what the workstation was called.
17:23:09 <fizzie> CentOS 6.3, apparently.
17:23:40 <fizzie> That's very new, in fact the newest, apparently.
17:23:55 <Vorpal> what is it with youtube and not the "buffered up until this point" marker not matching how far it actually buffered
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17:24:40 <fizzie> I wonder what it is with YouTube and the frame-thumbnail-for-the-seekbar that randomly seems to sometimes be there, sometimes not.
17:24:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Videos are like WiFi.
17:24:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think it is there for older videos
17:25:03 <Vorpal> I guess they don't generate that straight away
17:25:10 <Phantom_Hoover> They defy all mortal comprehension when examined too closely, despite being apparently simple.
17:25:21 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, wifi is in no way simple
17:25:31 <fizzie> Maybe they generate them only when sufficiently many people have bothered to seek the video in question.
17:25:41 <Vorpal> not even apparently
17:26:04 <Vorpal> also this video sometimes just breaks, stops loading
17:26:11 <soundnfury> You want "defies mortal comprehension"? Try getting CPU frequency scaling to behave
17:26:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, well it certainly isn't obvious that your connection's stability is going to be incredibly variable for no apparent reason.
17:26:34 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, that follows from the SNR
17:26:49 * soundnfury has just spent about an hour on it, and "cpufreq-info" still doesn't work
17:27:50 <soundnfury> and I still don't know whether the bug's in the kernel, the module, the bios, or whether I just have a shit and borken CPU
17:27:52 <Vorpal> soundnfury, what CPU?
17:27:57 <Vorpal> what system in general
17:28:25 <soundnfury> Vorpal: Celeron. Linux (3.2.0-3-686-pae). MSI CR500X laptop
17:28:32 <Vorpal> hm
17:28:39 <Vorpal> no idea about that, maybe it is too old
17:28:44 <Vorpal> does the CPU even support it?
17:28:59 <soundnfury> Celeron T3500
17:29:17 <soundnfury> Not sure, but there was a BIOS option to enable it
17:29:31 <fizzie> Sounds like acpi-cpufreq then.
17:29:34 <soundnfury> any idea which of the /proc/cpuinfo flags might indicate it
17:29:50 <soundnfury> fizzie: acpi-cpufreq wouldn't load (No such device). But, speedstep-lib did
17:30:18 <fizzie> Maybe it does the speedstep thing, then. Though module loading isn't really proof positive.
17:31:53 <soundnfury> tru dat
17:32:10 <soundnfury> but the BIOS option was (iirc) called speedstep too,
17:32:15 <soundnfury> so unless the BIOS is overly generic
17:32:44 <fizzie> http://www.notebookcheck.nl/Intel-Celeron-Dual-Core-T3500-Notebook-Processor.48260.0.html through Google Translate sounds somewhat negative. "The Celeron T3500 does not have support for Enhanced SpeedStep (and other technologies), the average power consumption is so, however, higher, lower battery life as a result."
17:33:09 <fizzie> Maybe they have a real English version too.
17:33:18 <fizzie> Geolocation seems to have given me a .nl thing.
17:33:59 <fizzie> Well, http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Celeron-Dual-Core-T3500-Notebook-Processor.37117.0.html isn't any better English.
17:34:03 <fizzie> But that's what they claim.
17:34:18 <Vorpal> what about the intel data sheet page
17:34:24 <Vorpal> ark.intel.com or something iirc
17:34:27 <fizzie> That's http://ark.intel.com/products/42104
17:34:29 <fizzie> It's silent on it.
17:34:53 <Vorpal> soundnfury, looks like you may be out of luck
17:35:21 <soundnfury> yeah, just found out that "Enhanced SpeedStep" is cpuinfo flag "est", which isn't here
17:35:36 <soundnfury> ok, so in other words My Laptop Is Shite
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17:35:43 <soundnfury> but I already knew that
17:36:00 <Vorpal> soundnfury, well obviously.... Anything with a Celeron is super-old anyway
17:36:05 <Vorpal> and thus shit in modern terms
17:36:24 <soundnfury> It was cheap
17:36:33 <Vorpal> soundnfury, how long have you had it?
17:36:50 <soundnfury> umm, year and a half I think
17:36:56 <Vorpal> hm okay
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17:37:07 <Vorpal> bought it used then I guess
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17:37:26 <soundnfury> my previous laptop developed an intermittent fault due to (we think) a hairline crack on the mobo
17:37:36 <soundnfury> no, new from Novatech
17:37:46 <fizzie> Vorpal: Celeron T3500 launch date is listed as Q3'10, that's less than two years ago.
17:37:47 <Vorpal> Celeron new 1.5 years ago?
17:37:50 <Vorpal> wow
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17:37:57 <Vorpal> Celeron was still alive as a brand then
17:37:58 <Vorpal> wtf
17:38:15 <Vorpal> Celeron feels so 10 years ago
17:38:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: There are Sandy Bridge Celerons from 2012.
17:38:47 <Vorpal> I thought they killed the brand ages ago?
17:38:59 <fizzie> Celeron 797, release date January 2012.
17:39:11 <fizzie> http://ark.intel.com/products/63917
17:39:35 <Vorpal> huh
17:40:29 <fizzie> No Ivy Bridge Celerons (yet), though.
17:40:50 <Vorpal> right
17:41:01 <soundnfury> Celeron T3500 (what I have) release date September 2010 (says Wiki)
17:41:14 <soundnfury> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Celeron_microprocessors
17:41:21 <fizzie> Yes.
17:41:41 <fizzie> I did quote the Intel spec-sheet launch date, up there.
17:42:35 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also Celeron G550 (a desktop thing) from June 2012, that's like last month.
17:43:38 <fizzie> Hey, whoa.
17:43:53 <Vorpal> heh
17:43:56 <fizzie> Win-tab does some kinda threedee alt-tab in Win 7.
17:44:01 <fizzie> The more you know, I guess.
17:44:06 <fizzie> I haven't really used this much.
17:44:06 <Vorpal> sec
17:44:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't for me
17:44:16 <Vorpal> are you using Areo?
17:44:20 <fizzie> Yes.
17:44:23 <fizzie> Aero.
17:44:26 <Vorpal> I use the classic looks
17:44:28 <Vorpal> so no Areo
17:44:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what does it look like?
17:45:13 <fizzie> http://www.windows7taskforce.com/uploads/alt-win%20tab.jpg like that top thing.
17:45:20 <fizzie> (That's some kind of a combined thing.)
17:45:29 <fizzie> But the thing with the "sheets".
17:45:38 <Vorpal> I see
17:45:42 <Vorpal> pretty useless
17:46:00 <fizzie> Sure, I was just surprised. Thought I was alt-tabbing.
17:46:04 <Vorpal> heh
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17:48:46 <fizzie> (Also it's still Aero and not Areo.)
17:49:27 <Vorpal> whatever
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17:51:36 <fizzie> Hello, orejan.
17:51:50 <oerjan> g'day fuzzie
17:52:01 <fizzie> I was hoping you'd correct the spelling.
17:52:08 <fizzie> Then I could've said "whatever".
17:52:31 <oerjan> sounds dangerous.
18:00:12 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:00:14 <Taneb> Hello!
18:11:54 <Taneb> It's quiet
18:16:18 <oerjan> too quiet
18:18:40 <soundnfury> All quiet on the esoteric front?
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18:20:02 <Taneb> Indeed
18:29:54 <Vorpal> what is it with google services today. I'm having massive issues with youtube, gmail and google reader. Timing out or giving me 500 internal server errors sometimes
18:32:43 <coppro> we hate yuou
18:33:03 <Vorpal> who/what is "yuou"?
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18:34:51 <mroman> hm.
18:35:00 <mroman> Kann a PDA reverse its stack?
18:35:20 <Gregor> No.
18:36:34 <Taneb> Public display of affection?
18:39:06 <fizzie> The "no takebacks" rule of public displays of affection.
18:39:43 <oerjan> mroman: if it could, then you could easily implement a tape
18:40:11 <oerjan> or queue
18:40:18 <mroman> That's what I figured @queue
18:41:03 <oerjan> Taneb: pushdown automaton hth
18:41:05 <fizzie> A nondeterministic public display of affection can recognize a palindrome, though.
18:41:24 <mroman> The thing is...
18:41:27 <mroman> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Pushdown-overview.svg
18:41:35 <mroman> What's state supposed to mean?
18:41:41 <mroman> Is that some sort of internal state?
18:41:48 <Taneb> "Roll the dice, if it's 1, we just hug"
18:41:51 <mroman> Modifieable by instructions on the input tape?
18:41:54 <Taneb> "That's not a palindrome!"
18:42:13 <fizzie> mroman: Just look at the mathy definition as opposed to confusing images.
18:42:28 <oerjan> mroman: yes, it has internal finite state in addition to the stack
18:42:43 <fizzie> The thing that starts with the 7-tuple.
18:52:44 <mroman> I'm trying to figure out whether Burlesque is a PDA
18:52:54 <mroman> it's probably not.
18:53:04 <mroman> You can't reverse the stack though.
18:53:36 <mroman> unless you know how many elements on the stack are or leave a marking element somewhere
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18:58:17 <oerjan> if you have only finite memory other than the stack, and cannot do anything to the stack below some depth without removing what's above, then it's probably a PDA.
18:58:45 <Vorpal> <fizzie> A nondeterministic public display of affection can recognize a palindrome, though. <-- what?
18:59:23 <Vorpal> oh, I blame Taneb for that
19:00:04 <oerjan> oh and each stack element has finite bounded size
19:00:23 <mroman> A stack element can have an infinite size.
19:00:31 <mroman> (eg. Blocks (Lists))
19:00:51 <mroman> so you can simulate a queue with a list I guess.
19:00:55 <oerjan> hm right
19:02:54 <mroman> which would probably make it turing complete.
19:03:46 <mroman> I can simulate brainfucks >< by rotating a list, +,- obviously by incrementing the head of the list
19:04:00 <mroman> [] using a while loop that checks the head of the list, done.
19:04:38 <oerjan> mroman: can you do underload's :()^ ? those are very simple for a stack language with blocks...
19:04:42 <Vorpal> mroman, are you trying to prove a new language TC?
19:05:21 <mroman> : is duplicate, I can do that.
19:06:05 <mroman> duplicate, swap, pop not a problem.
19:06:16 <mroman> and stuff is pushed automatically.
19:07:21 <oerjan> quite possibly !a* are also easy, but :()^ are all that are needed for TC
19:07:44 <mroman> ^ modifies the program?
19:08:15 <oerjan> it's really just eval
19:08:29 <mroman> hm.
19:10:20 <mroman> (:^):^
19:11:25 <mroman> It's probably easier to translate brainfuck to Burlesque than translating underload :)
19:11:55 <fizzie> If you have integers of infinite size as the stack elements, and can do suitable things to it, you could go via a two-counter machine too.
19:11:58 <mroman> Pushing instructions to the stack is possible
19:12:07 <mroman> but it requires a lot of wrapping stuff in blocks :)
19:12:36 <oerjan> mroman: ah so you don't have a way to simply parse nested blocks?
19:12:52 <mroman> oerjan: Nested blocks are no problem.
19:13:37 <oerjan> well then, hm
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19:14:10 <mroman> You can put code in a block and eval it.
19:14:11 <oerjan> ( -> { , ) -> } , : -> ^^ , ^ -> e!
19:14:21 <oerjan> is there anything wrong with that translation?
19:14:46 <mroman> so (:^):^ becomes {^^e!}^^e!?
19:14:54 <oerjan> yeah
19:14:58 <mroman> Sure, that works.
19:15:13 <oerjan> well then it's TC
19:17:17 <oerjan> ! and * may be vv and **
19:18:41 <oerjan> or maybe .+ for the latter
19:19:50 <mroman> .+ doesn't work for commands yet.
19:19:54 <mroman> but that'd be a good idea
19:20:12 <mroman> although
19:20:17 <mroman> .+ works for blocks
19:20:54 <mroman> hm.
19:20:58 <mroman> yeah... should work with .+
19:21:09 <oerjan> a might be {}\/[+ , assuming [+ nests if the arguments are both blocks
19:21:44 <mroman> blsq ) {ab} {cd} [+
19:21:44 <mroman> {ab {cd}}
19:22:01 <oerjan> excellent
19:22:28 <oerjan> so then you have all of underload except S, which tends to break with reencodings anyhow
19:23:32 <AnotherTest> mroman: http://pastebin.com/bMpJPxQA -- just a quick example. It lacks many things.
19:25:01 <AnotherTest> I had to make it skip whitespace because blsq gives me errors if I don't? Shouldn't all whitespace be ignored?
19:26:03 <mroman> White spaces are optional
19:26:08 <mroman> *whitespaces
19:26:18 <mroman> except after {
19:27:02 <mroman> hm.
19:27:23 <AnotherTest> mroman: it seems to happen only with newlines(?)
19:28:20 <mroman> Let me put an "optional spaces" after {
19:28:54 <AnotherTest> http://pastebin.com/gW3bfVu0
19:28:58 <AnotherTest> that gives me:
19:29:10 <AnotherTest> blsq: (line 3, column 1):
19:29:10 <AnotherTest> unexpected " "
19:29:30 <mroman> yeah, that's invalid because whitespace can't follow {.
19:29:40 <mroman> which is a missing optional spaces in my parser.
19:30:12 <mroman> ah
19:30:19 <mroman> Can't git just ignore binary files
19:30:27 <AnotherTest> yes
19:30:33 <AnotherTest> .gitignore
19:30:39 <AnotherTest> That should be possible
19:31:09 <mroman> I thought that only allows extensions?
19:31:12 <AnotherTest> Unless your binary files are in the same directory as the source code?
19:31:28 <AnotherTest> I put bin/* in there today, and that worked
19:31:53 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/commit/8d7addc5667a703091fff9194b79a613c29d6da4
19:31:56 <mroman> AnotherTest: Yeah that works.
19:32:02 <mroman> But I whish it would ignore binary files at all
19:32:04 <mroman> no matter where they are.
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19:33:44 <mroman> I sometimes do ghc --make main.hs -o burlesque to test things.
19:33:49 <Taneb> Hello
19:33:53 <mroman> and then when I do git add . it adds it
19:34:02 <mroman> and haskell binaries are like 6MB or so
19:35:38 <AnotherTest> I'm going. Tomorrow I will try to add functions or something else to Burlesque by using HELP. I think it's possible by adding a flag that will make it preprocess everything twice (this will allow a macro to generate a macro)
19:36:08 <olsner> don't use git add ., just add the right files instead
19:36:26 <mroman> I'm too used to git add . :D
19:36:32 <AnotherTest> or, if you really are lazy
19:36:38 <AnotherTest> *.hs
19:36:38 <mroman> Because
19:36:47 <mroman> sometimes I just edit files and have no idea which I edited
19:36:49 <mroman> so i just do
19:36:56 <mroman> git add .; git commit -m "*bump*"; git push;
19:37:00 <fizzie> git commit -a is also a lazy solution.
19:37:02 <mroman> silly me :)
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19:37:17 <mroman> git add *.hs?
19:37:19 <fizzie> (It will only add modified/deleted, not new files.)
19:37:28 <mroman> oh.
19:37:30 <mroman> fizzie: Thanks.
19:39:22 <fizzie> Overuse of "commit -a" might make one forget to actually add new files, though. (Personally I just take a quick git status to see what I've been doing lately, and then add explicitly.)
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19:40:01 <Taneb> I've... never figured out how to use git
19:40:06 <Taneb> Not that I've tried
19:46:19 <kallisti> it's not too difficult once you understand some basic stuff
19:50:28 <kallisti> unless you're Gregor
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20:25:17 <soundnfury> You can put filenames in .gitignore
20:25:27 <soundnfury> I usually put in the names of my binaries
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21:12:35 <Taneb> It occurs to me, that I have now bought Amnesia 3 times
21:12:39 <Taneb> Never played it
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21:30:58 <Sgeo_> tswett, what's this about a partnership?
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22:01:00 <fizzie> Sgeo_: I think it was a trap.
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2012-07-26
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01:16:31 <coppro> yay, badblocks saves the day
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01:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait whoa, Gilgamesh was 2/3 god.
01:56:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Sumerian myths are so much better than that Greek crap.
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02:40:33 <Sgeo_> I think I'm going to watch babylon 5
02:41:13 <Sgeo_> Or not
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03:19:27 <tswett> Sgeo_: well, it's pretty much exactly what I said.
03:19:47 <tswett> I say "Sgeo's messages are also Machiavelli's", you say the converse. And that's the partnership.
03:20:56 <Sgeo_> What, "Machiavelli's messages are also Sgeo's?" Or am I getting converse wrong (I wikipedia'd it)
03:21:04 <tswett> Yeah, that.
03:21:33 <coppro> tswett: in Agora?
03:21:36 <tswett> coppro: yep.
03:21:41 <coppro> that doesn't work
03:21:49 <tswett> It doesn't?
03:21:53 <coppro> no
03:21:54 <Sgeo_> You could also say "Warrigal's messages are also Machiavelli's" and then have control of me, I think
03:21:57 <Sgeo_> (If it worked)
03:22:00 <coppro> what is a partnership
03:22:21 <tswett> In this case, a partnership is when two people work together to achieve a common goal.
04:09:14 <Gregor> Hello, different audience than last night.
04:09:20 <Gregor> Go read my short story: http://codu.org/fiction/LensCap.html
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08:10:12 <AnotherTest> Hi
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08:43:41 <mroman> Hi.
08:43:58 <mroman> If C is not turing-complete, but there is a Brainfuck interpreter in C
08:44:08 <mroman> that means, there is no actual Brainfuck interpreter in C
08:44:13 <mroman> because C can't interpret Brainfuck.
08:44:56 <mroman> Also that means: "I wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in my language, so my language is turing complete" might be delicate then.
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08:57:09 <fizzie> You could argue that "Brainfuck" without qualifiers might easily mean a fixed-length tape (that's what the first implementation had), in which case it's quite irrelevant to TC-ness.
08:57:37 <fizzie> You could also argue that purely by saying "I wrote a Brainfuck interpreter in my language, so my language is turing complete" you're kind of implying the tape is in fact not finite.
09:01:27 -!- monqy has left.
09:06:28 <AnotherTest> practically the tape is always finite
09:08:43 <mroman> Due to the restrictions of a computer yes.
09:08:52 <mroman> But not by the restrictions of a language.
09:09:11 <mroman> You can write a brainfuck interpreter in a turing complete language so that the tape *would* be infinite
09:16:43 <fizzie> You can also write one in C in which the tape would be infinite if the language was tweaked a tiny little bit; the finiteness isn't really all that noticeable, after all.
09:17:12 <fizzie> So the "C isn't TC" is really mostly just nitpicking and arguing for the sake of argument.
09:43:18 <shachaf> "tweaked a tiny bit"?
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10:14:56 <Taneb> Hello
10:16:06 <AnotherTest> Hello
10:17:04 <AnotherTest> mroman: it's possible to add features from Stlang (eg. functions) to burlesque by making macros that expand in new macros
10:19:37 <AnotherTest> that'd be something like #fn\s+(.*)\s+(.*)efn :=
10:19:37 <AnotherTest> #\1 := \2\n
10:26:25 <Taneb> Are you two working together on Burlesque?
10:50:11 <Taneb> brb
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11:10:27 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 There's no Peanoid or Copeanoid instance for Int8
11:10:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:28:36 <Taneb> Is now the time to learn Lisp?
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11:37:55 <mroman> Taneb: No @working together
11:38:09 <mroman> He's writing a preprocessor for esoteric programming languages
11:38:14 <mroman> and uses Burlesque for examples.
11:38:40 <mroman> although that macros won't enable you recursion I guess.
11:39:07 <mroman> Not without much overhead I think.
11:39:22 <mroman> Burlesque doesn't know the concept "recursion"
11:39:27 <mroman> Not first hand.
11:41:05 <elliott> fizzie: I think making C TC would require more than small changes. Although I guess just removing CHAR_BIT would allow the possibility of a TC implementation.
11:44:02 <Taneb> elliott, should I learn Lisp?
11:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well what is there to stop you replacing 'integer' with 'ordinal' in the right places to allow infinitely large types?
11:44:31 <elliott> Taneb: what is "Lisp"
11:44:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the C standard
11:44:40 <Taneb> elliott, a speech impediment.
11:44:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, learning <language> is generally a good idea so long as it's not Yet Another Generic Scripting Language.
11:45:10 <Taneb> A sixth of my ancient history class suffer from it
11:45:26 <Phantom_Hoover> And there are 6 people in the class, har har har.
11:45:29 <Taneb> There's 12
11:45:43 <Taneb> 30% of my further maths class are called Andrew
11:45:53 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: Learn COBOL, it's a generally a good idea ;P
11:45:55 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: what is "Lisp"
11:46:05 <elliott> you are giving crappy advice because you don't know what Taneb is using "Lisp" to refer to
11:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, CL or Scheme, these days.
11:46:29 <elliott> for instance learning LISP 1.5 would be incredibly dumb
11:46:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Neither is a bad choice.
11:46:35 <elliott> and Scheme is barely a Lisp
11:46:47 <elliott> (and not considered a Lisp by its designers, just a Lisp descendent)
11:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's referred to as one.
11:46:52 <nooga> then what is Lisp?
11:47:04 <elliott> i give up
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11:47:08 <nooga> hahaha ;d
11:47:11 <Taneb> nooga, it's when you can't really pronounce your f's or s's right?
11:47:52 <mroman> I'm tempted to create an eso-paste like codepad.org
11:47:52 <nooga> that's one of definitions
11:48:06 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, different to codepad in what way?
11:48:07 <mroman> Which not only stores your paste, but also runs it and tells you its output.
11:48:08 <nooga> was there a guy with nick Patashu here?
11:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
11:48:17 <Taneb> A while back?
11:48:22 <Taneb> He may be still here AS WE SPEAK
11:48:23 <nooga> I recall seeing him here
11:48:25 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: It supports esolangs @different ;)?
11:48:44 <Taneb> mroman, like, with syntax highlighting?
11:48:53 <mroman> Yes.
11:49:21 <Phantom_Hoover> How many esolangs can you even do that for
11:49:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Most of them barely have a syntax.
11:49:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (Brainfuck
11:49:41 <Taneb> Probably just Glass
11:49:43 <Phantom_Hoover> is partly to blame for this.)
11:49:51 <mroman> Brainfuck well.
11:49:55 <Taneb> And INTERCAL
11:50:12 <mroman> It't have a different color for +- [] >< and ,. probably.
11:50:19 <mroman> *d
11:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> There are a fair few that do, but most of them have BF-style specs where it's just considered a flat array of instructions.
11:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Remind me, did I get around to adding a better BF spec on the wiki.
11:51:05 <Taneb> No
11:52:10 <Taneb> Yeah, all of mine are like that but Luigi and Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
11:52:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I should do that.
11:52:41 <Taneb> My first esolang was indirectly a BF derivative
11:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought 3: was a chelicerate smiley until I read through a second time.
11:53:12 <Taneb> chelicerate?
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11:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Spiders and other things with that sort of fangs.
11:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Also Nepeta, because of the unfortunate way her mouth is drawn.
11:55:24 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Neither does Word64
11:55:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:58:08 <Taneb> I wonder how many people know the context for that?
11:58:11 <Taneb> Possibly only me
11:59:10 <mroman> I quickly switched to #haskell but found no context there either.
11:59:32 <Taneb> NOBODY SHALL KNOW
12:00:00 <ais523> it's targeted at zzo38
12:00:00 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:00:05 <ais523> thus, it's quite possible there /isn't/ any context
12:00:07 <ais523> @messages
12:00:07 <lambdabot> elliott said 3d 1h 49m 49s ago: lumenstones /do/ stack; see http://i.imgur.com/WiVQp.png
12:00:08 <lambdabot> elliott said 3d 1h 23m 54s ago: btw, I got to depth 21 with the help of a highly-enchanted staff of lightning and +3 scale mail of reflection, but then I died :(
12:01:34 <ais523> @tell elliott item stacks (except projectiles) in Brogue use up 1 inventory slot per item in the stack; that pack's full because it contains 26 items, even though only 17 of the 26 slots are in use, so your link actually argues for my point of view :)
12:01:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:02:09 <ais523> @tell elliott meanwhile, I'm interested in your opinion on http://nethack4.org/pastebin/philosophy.html (I suspect you're going to disagree with it, but am interested to know with which bits)
12:02:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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12:05:45 <Taneb> That reminds me, I need to actually become good at NetHack at some point
12:05:48 <Taneb> Well, I really don't
12:06:03 <Taneb> It'd probably be better if I didn't, to be honest.
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12:07:42 <ais523> btw, anyone else who cares can look at that link I sent elliott too
12:07:51 <AnotherTest> Sorry my Internet connection died :(
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12:14:25 <Madoka-Kaname> http://postimage.org/image/99fi2135j/
12:14:25 <Madoka-Kaname> Oh dear.
12:14:28 <Madoka-Kaname> This is going to take a while.
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12:21:52 <Sgeo_> Madoka-Kaname, hm?
12:23:38 <Taneb> I'd say you're losing
12:23:45 <Taneb> Is TOX the one that doubles the damage each turn
12:23:46 <Taneb> ?
12:23:55 <Taneb> As opposed to the similar PSN?
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12:24:51 <Madoka-Kaname> Taneb, Wigglytuff has Magic Guard
12:24:57 <Madoka-Kaname> TOX's damage is negated.
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12:25:03 <Taneb> Oh, brilliant
12:27:28 <Madoka-Kaname> Simply put, it became a question of "who has more PP"
12:28:22 <Taneb> Good luck
12:29:28 <Madoka-Kaname> (The other player disconnected)
12:29:29 <Madoka-Kaname> (><)
12:29:40 <Taneb> (does that mean you get the points)
12:29:50 <Madoka-Kaname> (The ladder server is down. Nobody gets points right now :()
12:30:01 <Taneb> :(
12:32:36 <Madoka-Kaname> The foe's Cofagrigus used Shadow Ball!
12:32:37 <Madoka-Kaname> It doesn't affect Noriko...
12:32:40 <Madoka-Kaname> Are you stupid??
12:33:16 <Taneb> I need to play more Pokemon
12:33:19 <Taneb> Actually...
12:33:26 <Taneb> see my NetHack speech earlier
12:33:54 <Madoka-Kaname> I love how
12:33:56 <Madoka-Kaname> Clefable
12:34:00 <Madoka-Kaname> Is totally immune to all entry hazards
12:34:15 <Madoka-Kaname> Meaing all those spikes are useless
12:34:30 <Taneb> Your team is perfectly adapted to the scenario?
12:34:37 <Madoka-Kaname> Not really.
12:34:41 <Madoka-Kaname> It's kinda still under construction
12:35:03 <Madoka-Kaname> Are you stupid?
12:35:09 <Madoka-Kaname> Setting up entry hazards while I was setting up a sweeper?
12:35:35 <Taneb> Yeah, I suck at Pokemon
12:35:42 <Taneb> And most other video games
12:38:01 <Taneb> I can't really think in strategy?
12:53:30 <AnotherTest> http://pastebin.com/QDFJrB31 <- that works
12:53:40 <AnotherTest> mroman
12:58:15 <mroman> What if I call test in test?
13:00:10 <mroman> Defining macros is ok
13:00:21 <mroman> But trying to disguise them as functions is wrong :)
13:00:49 <mroman> but that depends on the language I guess.
13:07:32 <AnotherTest> If you call test from withing test, it doesn't get substituted :p
13:08:09 <AnotherTest> I see these functions more as a syntactic construct
13:08:31 <AnotherTest> HELP doesn't define semantic behavior anyway
13:08:40 <Taneb> A very lazy macro system would essentially be call-by-name laziness?
13:10:42 <AnotherTest> Well I think that there is an other approach, but it's harder
13:10:56 <AnotherTest> you could push the function to the stack as a Block
13:11:17 <AnotherTest> but then the problem would be loading it
13:17:15 <Taneb> Apparently, a tiling is a family of shapes, which are called tiles
13:19:29 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: surely Nepeta's mouth would be much more like :3 than like 3:.
13:29:40 <tswett> Sgeo_: so, what do you say to the partnership idea?
13:32:17 <Taneb> Partnership idea?
13:32:37 <tswett> Where each of us allows the other to act on our behalf.
13:32:47 <Taneb> What context?
13:33:04 <tswett> Agora.
13:33:08 <Taneb> Okay
13:33:26 <Taneb> There ought to be an esoteric programming language community nomic
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13:46:49 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, well yes.
13:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> But it also has those fangs at the bottom.
13:52:07 <AnotherTest> mroman: macros can't generate macros nicely... \ is seen as an escape sequence in the function body
13:53:40 <Taneb> You'd think Nepeta and Vriska would get on more
13:53:53 <Taneb> But I can't recall them ever interacting on-screen?
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14:07:39 <Taneb> Hello
14:08:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb!
14:08:59 <Phantom_Hoover> It's been a while!
14:09:02 <Taneb> Yeah!"
14:09:18 <Taneb> But yeah, my laptop crashed
14:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Were the passengers OK?
14:09:42 <Taneb> No serious injuries
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14:20:36 <oklopol> here's a CA question: you have a state called 0 and a state called 1. device a CA with at least these states such that all configurations over {0, 1} with a finite number of 1's collect the 1's into a connected pattern, and the number of 1's stays constant.
14:21:26 <Taneb> My first thought is that that is not possible if the CA has infinite space
14:21:44 <Taneb> But I think I have an idea?
14:22:02 <oklopol> so you are given an infinite configuration with 0's and 1's such that there are only finitely many 1's, and without changing the number of 1's, but possibly using any finite set of helper states, clump the 1's together.
14:23:08 <oklopol> well do you want hints? i have a continuation to this question if someone gives a plausible solution.
14:23:22 <Taneb> Can I see where my idea goes first?
14:23:32 <oklopol> i'm asking this because it's kind of a fun esoteric type puzzle, and would be nice to know if what we've done sofar is trivial.
14:23:46 <oklopol> sure i'm gonna watch old episodes of house now
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14:24:32 <elliott> fizzie: Do you know if there's a way to hook up a socket into the SDL event loop thingy?
14:24:32 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
14:24:35 <elliott> I guess not.
14:24:35 <oklopol> i can tell what the answer is as a boolean at some point at least, unless someone finds such a CA or proof of impossibility
14:25:23 <oklopol> (or if no one cares ofc :D)
14:27:10 <tswett> Taneb: what's your idea, then?
14:27:16 <Taneb> Sort of like ropes
14:28:20 <oklopol> :P
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14:34:17 <Taneb> I think I can do it with 5 states (2 dimensions)
14:35:38 <Taneb> Unless I'm missing something stupid, definitely 6
14:38:29 <tswett> How?
14:38:46 <oklopol> right yeah this is for 2D, that's kind of important (although might help looking at 1D first)
14:38:47 <Taneb> Sort of like ropes is actually the best description I can think of
14:38:57 <Taneb> Yeah, I meant 1D
14:39:09 <Taneb> 2D may be harder, haven't really thought about it
14:39:14 <oklopol> okay so how do you do it?
14:39:28 <Taneb> Can you let me write this down and think it through?
14:39:34 <elliott> fizzie: How do partial reads work with a non-blocking FD?
14:39:37 <Taneb> I'm trying to get my brain to give me its secrets atm
14:39:38 <oklopol> also i hope i explained the problem correctly
14:39:40 <elliott> e.g. if I read 12 bytes but only 11 are available.
14:40:25 <oklopol> it's very important here that you can depend on every state besides 1 and 0 having been introduced by yourself
14:40:52 <oklopol> well, important in the sense that it's a very different problem otherwise.
14:40:59 <elliott> Deewiant may also apply.
14:41:02 <oklopol> and yeah take your time
14:41:08 <Taneb> What do you mean by "depend"?
14:41:45 <oklopol> well just that you can trust that you are really given a configuration with only 0s and 1s even though you can introduce more states that you then use in clumping the 1s together.
14:42:10 <Taneb> Okay
14:42:21 <Taneb> So, you're saying that I start with something that has only 1s and 0s
14:43:44 <oklopol> yes.
14:44:01 <oklopol> an infinite configuration, we can say say 1D for now
14:44:07 <oklopol> and there are only finitely many 1s
14:46:20 <Deewiant> elliott: Presumably you get the 11 bytes
14:46:30 <elliott> Deewiant: :(
14:46:46 <elliott> Deewiant: I don't suppose there's an easy way to get "give me 12 bytes if you have them, otherwise just refuse to respond"?
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14:47:27 <Deewiant> Like, read nothing from the fd if there are less than 12 bytes available?
14:47:48 <Deewiant> I don't know of a way, at least.
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14:49:47 <elliott> Deewiant: A shame.
14:50:47 <Deewiant> Any reason you can't just buffer the 11?
14:51:15 <elliott> Deewiant: Because I'll have to maintain a buffer. :(
14:51:18 <elliott> I guess I could just do this thingy.
14:51:55 <elliott> Deewiant: By the way, remind me to reintroduce these hard tabs when I'm done.
14:51:58 <elliott> THX
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15:04:01 <Taneb> Found a problem with my system
15:04:26 <Taneb> Attempting to fix
15:04:44 <oklopol> alright
15:05:38 <oklopol> ais523_: can you compose two CA in mathematica?
15:07:56 <oklopol> i feel kind of dirty since i've *actually implemented a few CA* at work, and to make things worse, i used mathematica :/
15:10:19 <oklopol> apparently the only way to make CA in mathematica is to supply a local rule directly. they are not functions, and you cannot run them on arbitrary computable configurations. the whole thing is completely special cased and it's really annoying to do anything with them.
15:11:50 <oklopol> no optimation is done if a periodic (or even unary) pattern starts filling the universe.
15:11:52 <Taneb> Damn
15:12:10 <Taneb> My idea hasn't worked
15:12:15 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to GoldParrot.
15:12:18 <oklopol> okay
15:12:26 <oklopol> even for 1D?
15:12:27 <Taneb> I'll describe it any way
15:12:29 <Taneb> Yeah
15:12:33 <oklopol> alright go ahead
15:12:42 -!- GoldParrot has changed nick to BitParrot.
15:12:48 <Taneb> The 1's emit a highway of 3's with 2's at the tips
15:12:57 <oklopol> which way?
15:13:05 -!- BitParrot has changed nick to copumpkin.
15:13:06 <Taneb> So, 1 -> 212 -> 23132 -> ... -> 2333331333332
15:13:13 <oklopol> both ways okay
15:13:25 <Taneb> Actually, that's an idea
15:13:34 <oklopol> what is?
15:13:47 <oklopol> oh just one way perhaps
15:13:55 <Taneb> It'll only work for 1D, but if they only go one way, I'll avoid this error
15:14:03 <oklopol> cool
15:14:20 <oklopol> so what then?
15:14:46 <Taneb> When a highway encounters a 1 or a 2, the 2 turns into a 4
15:15:04 <Taneb> This 4 falls back to the original 1, which then moves towards the 4
15:15:21 <oklopol> and you only do this in one direction?
15:15:29 <Taneb> Both
15:15:39 <oklopol> okay, don't the highways collide?
15:15:40 <oklopol> oh
15:15:55 <oklopol> okay i see, they should gather at the middle then i guess?
15:16:00 <Taneb> Yeah, in theory
15:16:04 <Taneb> It doesn't work
15:16:09 <oklopol> and why is that?
15:16:18 <Taneb> What happens when there's the pattern 101?
15:16:37 <oklopol> well isn't that a local issue that you can fix trivially?
15:17:03 <Taneb> I thought so too, but it gets complicated and nasty
15:17:30 <Taneb> And you start losing 1's
15:17:39 <oklopol> you do?
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15:18:29 <Taneb> Unless you extend the detecty-range thing? But down that path madness lies
15:19:04 <oklopol> er
15:19:07 <oklopol> i doubt this
15:19:35 <oklopol> if you see 101, then neight 1 introduces a 2, and the rightmost one moves left
15:19:47 <oklopol> erm
15:19:49 <Taneb> http://hpaste.org/72152
15:19:52 <Taneb> That's what I had
15:19:53 <oklopol> neight??
15:20:15 <Taneb> neight isn't a word?
15:20:50 <oklopol> well what the fuck did it mean there? i assume jumbled some words together :D
15:21:07 <Taneb> Possibly "one"?
15:21:22 <oklopol> oh i meant neither
15:21:23 <oklopol> :D
15:21:32 <Taneb> Aaah
15:21:55 <Taneb> I think that's what I did, with a 5 to tell the 1 to move
15:22:03 <Taneb> But I made the one on the left move right?
15:23:09 <oklopol> i'm sure there's a very simple fix
15:23:36 <Taneb> Look at the hpaste, that's what I had before I realised it wasn't going to work
15:25:10 <oklopol> i'm happy with that if that's an actual simulation, i know it's not hard to make that work, but it's not very interesting, essentially you're done. now let's make this more interesting: 3 states, radius 1 (Von Neumann neighborhood)
15:25:17 <oklopol> and 2D
15:25:38 <oklopol> so you have a 0, a 1 and a single helper state
15:25:41 <Taneb> Oh dear
15:25:42 <oklopol> same rules
15:25:50 <Taneb> A single helper state!?
15:25:52 <oklopol> well there aren't that many CA like that :D
15:26:03 <oklopol> well okay there are kinda many.
15:26:24 <oklopol> erm wait
15:26:30 <oklopol> i guess you need moore neighborhood
15:26:42 <oklopol> this means you can look diagonally too, but just one step in each direction
15:27:23 <oklopol> also let's call this Problem 1 :P
15:27:35 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, are you allowed to have leftover helper state?
15:27:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, are you creating or destroying 1's?
15:28:11 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: yes
15:28:38 <oklopol> in fact i'm pretty sure you have to
15:28:54 <Taneb> Oh, that sense of leftover
15:29:48 <oklopol> no cleanup required, just that the 1's gather together and their number is conserved.
15:32:06 <oklopol> bonus points if you find the (presumably minimal) solution i hinted at, or a better one.
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15:48:42 <Taneb> I think I've got it
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15:52:18 <oklopol> with three states?
15:52:22 <Taneb> Yeah
15:52:25 <oklopol> ooh
15:52:26 <Taneb> Just testing it
15:53:22 <Taneb> Does anyone know any CA software that's easy for this kind of thing?
15:54:37 <oklopol> mathematica lets you visualize pretty nicely
15:54:45 <Taneb> How much does mathematica cost?
15:55:06 <oklopol> and mirek's cellebration is nice enough for testing CA on different patterns once you have the CA, but i don't know if it's nice to make rules with it.
15:55:20 <oklopol> well right, a lot, we have it at uni.
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15:56:06 <oklopol> also it's not much nicer making the actual rules than it is with say C, you can basically just give it the local rule. it does give you an infinite configuration, assuming only finitely many cells are filled.
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16:00:00 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm pretty sure this works
16:00:08 <Taneb> My phrasing's awful, though
16:00:11 <Taneb> 0's look at W, SW, and S. If any are not 0, become #.
16:00:11 <Taneb> 1's look at SW. If #, become 0. Else look at S and E. If S is # and E is not 1, become 0. Else look at W, NW, and N. If W is # and neither
16:00:11 <Taneb> NW nor N are 1, become 0.
16:00:11 <Taneb> #'s, look at NE. If NE is 1, become 1. Otherwise look at N and W. If N is 1 and W is not #, become 1. Otherwise look at E, SE, and S. If E is 1 and netiher SE nor S are #, become 1.
16:00:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:00:49 <oklopol> instead of tediously giving the rule, can you first explain what happens in english? :D
16:00:52 <oklopol> i mean
16:00:59 <oklopol> globally, not what the actual rules are
16:01:09 <oklopol> makes it a bit easier to follow, i'm kinda lazy.
16:01:27 <oklopol> hmm
16:01:31 <oklopol> or maybe that's easy enough
16:01:46 <Taneb> Basically, 1's send out a rug north, northeast, and east, and other 1's fall down it
16:02:01 <oklopol> okay that sounds correct.
16:02:20 <oklopol> so let's say we have a 1 at (0, 10) and (10, 0), does it still work?
16:02:33 <Taneb> No
16:02:35 <Taneb> :(
16:02:42 <Taneb> Damn
16:02:46 <oklopol> well don't be too sad, this is how we started
16:03:12 <oklopol> except ours was rotated 180 degrees
16:03:26 <oklopol> but i guess that's not how gravity works so you win.
16:06:10 <Phantom__Hoover> FWIW, Golly has a nifty tool that lets you convert state transition functions like the one Taneb gave into rule tables.
16:07:09 <oklopol> the rug description?
16:09:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Also I was thinking of the same kind of thing, except the rugs also send out tendrils to the sides,
16:11:03 <oklopol> send tendrils south and west?
16:11:32 <Taneb> How do you do that with only 3 states?
16:13:19 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, well if you change the orientation of the rugs so they spread in a triangle from NE to NW, then you can make a 0 with a single # to the left or right turn into a #, maybe?
16:13:47 <Taneb> Hmm
16:13:57 <Phantom__Hoover> The problem is starting up
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16:19:13 <Taneb> Hmm
16:19:15 <Taneb> That works
16:31:09 <olsner> is there a language where their word for no starts with y and their word for yes starts with n?
16:31:43 <Taneb> I think Welsh is like that with Male and Female
16:32:32 <Taneb> *Irish, men, women
16:33:01 <Taneb> "men" is "fir", "women" is "mn"
16:33:06 <Taneb> Causes chaos in restaurants
16:34:25 <Taneb> Almost Finnish?
16:34:49 <Taneb> Apparently, "niin" means "yes", and "ei" means "no"
16:34:53 <Taneb> Finns: confim/deny
16:35:36 <oklopol> "man" is "mies" and "woman" is "nainen"
16:35:41 <Taneb> In Greek, "yes" is nai, and "no" is "ochi"
16:36:10 <oklopol> "niin" is more like "that's true", "kyll" and "joo" are the canonical yesses
16:37:39 <Taneb> Swahili's close, too
16:37:54 <Taneb> "yes" is "ndiyo", "no", is "hakuna"
16:38:08 <FireFly> いいえ (iie) in japanese is a formal way of saying "no", apparently
16:38:45 <oklopol> also ie is no, but ee is yes.
16:38:46 <Taneb> So, Swahili and Greek are your best bets
16:39:27 <oklopol> uun is no, un is yes. then again the tone tells you everything you need to know in both cases.
16:40:09 <oklopol> ^ also that was another way to say yes/no in japanese
16:40:52 <oklopol> i like how nay is yes and okay is no.
16:40:55 <oklopol> in greek
16:44:22 <pikhq_> oklopol: Yeah, uun vs. un seems very confusing at first.
16:44:40 <pikhq_> But, they sound totally different when someone actually says it.
16:45:03 <pikhq_> Hooray, completely obvious instance of pitch accent.
16:47:11 <oklopol> also uhhuh can mean both yes and no in english depending on the tone. or perhaps you'd spell them differently, dunno.
16:47:43 <oklopol> perhaps the no is more like an uh-uh
16:48:22 <pikhq_> It is. To my ears "uh huh" and "uh-uh" sound like they're composed of different phonemes.
16:48:34 <pikhq_> I think "uh-uh" has a glottal stop in there.
16:48:42 <oklopol> in finnish we do the same with m-mm and mmhm.
16:48:52 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure it does, yes
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17:02:04 <Taneb> Aaaaaah oerjan
17:02:13 <Taneb> I'm in 2010 and the site crashed
17:04:32 <Phantom__Hoover> It is the '10s and there is time for the site crashing.
17:22:37 <AnotherTest> mroman: When compiling Burlesque; Web.Encodings wasn't found?
18:02:51 <elliott> @ask ais523 I thought killing a monster with a pet didn't give you death drops, re: gnomes and candles?
18:02:51 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:04:56 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:16:54 <pikhq_> Fun fact: computed goto is *hell* to debug.
18:18:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
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18:22:45 <olsner> Fun fact: that should not surprise anyone
18:26:18 <itidus21> Taneb: it sounds like maybe we thought of very similar CA .. i glanced at what you said in the logs.. well i dont know the context of it for you but for me it occured to me yesterday to say
18:26:52 <oklopol> you thought of this same CA yesterday??
18:26:53 <itidus21> a 6 state cell, {up,down,left,right,center,off}
18:27:03 <itidus21> oklopol: i didnt look close at it
18:27:08 <itidus21> so i highly doubt it
18:27:11 <itidus21> lol....
18:27:41 <oklopol> would've been awesome synchronicity
18:27:48 <itidus21> actually i named the states using compass points
18:28:10 <oklopol> although i didn't get to the main question yet, it's a bit more interesting
18:28:13 <itidus21> so.. if hte cell to the north was in a state of south, the current cell would become south in the next iteration
18:28:39 <itidus21> if the cell to the east was in a state of west, the current cell would become west
18:29:13 <itidus21> if the cell to the east was west, and the cell to the west was east, the current cell would become center/centre
18:29:26 <oklopol> and similarly for other collisions?
18:29:29 <itidus21> i actually gave up trying to map out all the possibilities
18:29:37 <oklopol> and what was this for?
18:30:04 <oklopol> this doesn't sound like what Taneb was doing
18:30:18 <itidus21> so that on a CA where the entire thing is off.. a single cell which is west, will translate to the west each iteration
18:30:24 <oklopol> just a lattice gas automaton or something
18:31:12 <oklopol> yeah i got it, you have particles that move in cardinal directions.
18:31:48 <itidus21> ya.. thats all.. i just saw his said west and stuff and i jumped the gun a bit
18:32:11 <oklopol> this was about gathering all the ones in a configuration in the same place
18:32:56 <itidus21> ah... well logic dictates that i would not have the same idea :D
18:33:14 <oklopol> it's impossible to do if you can only use 1's and 0's, but you can do it if you add one more symbol.
18:33:39 <oklopol> (extra points for proving what i just said)
18:34:27 <itidus21> my goal was to kind of use brute force to make spaceships automatically happen :D
18:35:38 <olsner> oklopol: 0/1/spacecraft?
18:36:30 <itidus21> lol
18:40:54 <oklopol> olsner: and why is there one?
18:41:06 <itidus21> well i know it can't be expressed (by me!) using simple ca rules, but by having enough states and writing a function i assume a lot is possible
18:41:24 <oklopol> you need three states and radius one
18:41:37 <oklopol> that much i've disclosed
18:41:40 <itidus21> to do everything?
18:41:44 <olsner> oklopol: not sure why I directed that comment to you
18:41:51 <itidus21> oh...... i wasnt ready to solve your problem yet
18:42:06 <itidus21> hnn
18:42:19 <oklopol> olsner: i assumed it was a very compact proof :D
18:43:02 <oklopol> itidus21: to gather ones in the same place
18:43:09 <oklopol> you need three states
18:43:15 <itidus21> yeah, that might be quite challenging for me
18:46:15 <itidus21> ahh.. perhaps you specify that collection spot with a 2!
18:47:26 <olsner> oklopol: it was a reference to a discussion from the other day, where it was decided that everything that has an off/on switch should also have a spacecraft mode on that switch
18:48:14 <itidus21> and the 2 grows like an evil blob and when it encounters a 1, the 1 digs a tunnel through it ... hmm perhaps not
18:48:17 <olsner> if whatever it was that required 3 states/symbols was related to spaceships, the topics are related
18:48:52 <olsner> (I mean, obviously you need the spacecraft setting to get spaceships)
18:49:43 <itidus21> olsner: its not technically related i think
18:50:01 <olsner> ok, that's a shame
18:50:03 <itidus21> i just make it sound related in my confusion and my constant topic hopping
18:50:16 <oklopol> olsner: also basically a proof for what i asked, although i might have accepted the empty string too.
18:50:50 <olsner> proof: <trivial>
18:51:06 <oklopol> itidus21: what you're describing with 2's sounds about right
18:51:12 <oklopol> but there's a problem with it
18:51:19 <itidus21> cool
18:51:27 <oklopol> that's easy enough to solve though
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18:53:09 <itidus21> ahh.... maybe it grows like a circle instead of a blob
18:54:13 <oklopol> and how do the 1s know where to move?
18:55:55 <itidus21> oh...... it could be a spiral.. and the 1s propagate along this spiral
18:56:56 <oklopol> where does it start?
18:57:00 <Taneb> Is there any rotatable CA with a 1x1 spaceship?
18:57:08 <itidus21> hummm
18:57:13 <oklopol> what's a rotatable CA?
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18:57:42 <oklopol> what's a spaceship?
18:58:05 <oklopol> because the identity CA has a 1x1 spaceship and pretty much any property you might want. except for not being the identity function.
18:59:09 <Taneb> A rotatable CA is what you get when you put California on a merry-go-round
18:59:31 <Taneb> A spaceship is a SHIP in SPACE
18:59:57 <oklopol> okay. does it also mean that if you rotate and apply, you get the same thing as if you apply and rotate?
19:00:09 <olsner> Taneb: yeah! because space is like water but it's a vacuum instead
19:00:10 <fizzie> A spaceship is a hip replacement done in a spa, at the Consumer Electronics Show.
19:00:18 <Taneb> Probably not
19:00:35 <oklopol> if that's the definition then you can't have a 1x1 spaceship
19:00:44 <oklopol> unless you also apply a rotation to states.
19:01:27 <oklopol> all totalistic CA (local rule just looks at the sum of values in the neighborhood) commute with rotations, GoL included
19:01:37 <oklopol> unless i'm being very stupid
19:02:10 <Taneb> A spaceship is a pattern that after t*k steps is a translation of itself
19:02:19 * itidus21 quietly backs away.
19:02:30 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
19:02:32 <Taneb> Where t is an integer variable and k is an integer constant
19:02:34 <Taneb> I think
19:04:17 <oklopol> yeah, a finite pattern such that when you surround them with 0s (what's 0??), you get a configuration x such that f^n(x) = \sigma^m(x) where f is your CA, \sigma the translation function and m some integer.
19:04:40 <oklopol> (in 1d, that is. otherwise you need to translate by a vector of appropriate dimension.)
19:05:13 <Taneb> s/integer/natural/
19:05:21 <oklopol> in what you said, it's enough that you require it for some k!=0, then the rest follows inductively.
19:05:42 <oklopol> k greater than 0 if we don't assume the CA is reversible
19:05:49 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm no expert on CA's
19:05:54 <Taneb> Or CA, or Ca
19:05:58 <Taneb> Or cars
19:06:55 <oklopol> yeah i'm just spreading the word, my goal is to get someone to read one of my articles during the next decade.
19:07:36 <Taneb> Hmm
19:07:57 <olsner> you write articles?
19:08:10 <oklopol> yes
19:08:10 <Taneb> Within the next decade, I'm planning on having a degree involving maths and computer science
19:08:17 <oklopol> it's my job
19:08:52 <olsner> you're a journalist?
19:09:06 <elliott> yes, oklopol is a journalist
19:09:41 <oklopol> yes, exactly
19:10:27 <itidus21> within next decade i want to get married, have children, leave the state, settle down in a routine of daily work related to indie entertainment, attend a rock concert, humm
19:11:08 <oklopol> i have 3/5
19:11:31 <Taneb> I have 1
19:11:38 <Taneb> I've left Victoria in the past
19:11:38 <itidus21> your work is distantly related
19:11:43 <olsner> oklopol: you got married and had kids at a rock concert?
19:11:51 <itidus21> ive left victoria but i want to leave it properly
19:11:57 <Taneb> Done that
19:12:00 <itidus21> ya
19:12:11 <itidus21> maybe i don't
19:12:12 <oklopol> olsner: i mean on my todo list
19:12:12 <Taneb> I'm all the way in Hexham, Not Victoria right now
19:12:15 <itidus21> i kind of like this place
19:12:16 <oklopol> for the next decade
19:12:20 <olsner> oklopol: oh, ok
19:12:24 <Taneb> Not NSW either
19:12:25 <itidus21> oh, maybe i should be in hexham
19:12:30 <itidus21> (joke, relax)
19:12:39 <Taneb> itidus21, you can do that without leaving the state!
19:12:55 <Taneb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham,_Victoria
19:12:55 <itidus21> i have a virtual presence in hexham
19:13:02 <itidus21> what hte
19:13:14 <Taneb> Population 56!
19:13:20 <itidus21> Population: 56
19:13:23 <itidus21> good god
19:14:32 <Taneb> Dilston, Tasmania has more than that
19:14:37 <Taneb> (hexham joke)
19:15:15 <Taneb> (also dilston, tasmania joke)
19:15:51 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:16:03 <itidus21> tasmanians are odd
19:16:47 <itidus21> biased view
19:38:57 <Taneb> That reminds me, I need to read Catch-22 at some point
19:39:08 <Taneb> Well, not itidus21 thinking that Tasmanians are odd
19:39:57 <itidus21> some tasmanians are odd due to them being humans not due to them being tasmanian :|
19:40:00 <itidus21> :(
19:40:05 <itidus21> phew
19:40:32 <Taneb> I have no idea what I'm listening to
19:40:41 <Taneb> But it looks like it's in the Albert Hall
19:41:32 <itidus21> so i learned that theres a kickstarter which is doing everything i wanted to do but didn't, and doing it likely better than i would have
19:42:06 <Taneb> Hey, itidus21, do you want to start a video game company with me?
19:42:14 <Taneb> That's your dream, right?
19:45:20 <itidus21> Who was right, and who was wrong? Well, I'm supposed to be an adult now, and I still can't completely figure that one out. But at some point, late at night, near sleep, the ideas and the disagreements sort of dissolve, and you're just left with the people. And people were no different then, as they've always been. And always will be. Young girls get their hearts broken. Men and women suffer alone, ove
19:45:20 <itidus21> r the choices they've made. And young boys, full of confusion... full of fear... full of love and courage... grow up stealthily in their sleep.
19:45:38 <elliott> hi
19:47:36 <itidus21> that answer means.. its the sort of moment where the wonder years narrator would start talking..
19:49:05 <itidus21> When you are a little kid, you are a bit of everything - artist, scientist, athlete, scholar. Sometimes, it seems life is like a process of giving those things up, one by one. I guess we all have one thing we regret giving up. One thing we really miss. And we gave up because we were too lazy. We couldn't stick it out. Or because we were afraid.
19:53:20 <itidus21> basically i see tasmanians as to australia, as canada is to america
19:53:44 <Taneb> I thought that was North Island, New Zealand?
19:54:07 <itidus21> well, technically canada is part of america :D
19:54:21 <Taneb> And Tasmania is part of Australia?
19:54:26 <itidus21> yup
19:54:47 <itidus21> shrugs
19:55:05 <itidus21> i only knew one guy from there though, so its not really fair to comment
19:55:10 <Taneb> But, using the colloquial meaning of "America" to mean the US, I think North Island, New Zealand is a much better Canada
19:55:24 <Taneb> Also, what's Mexico?
19:55:28 <itidus21> but i heard rumours about tasmanian
19:55:29 <Taneb> Northern Territory?
19:55:29 <itidus21> s
19:56:02 <itidus21> nah im just being exceptinally dumb today
19:56:25 <pikhq_> I think Google wants to straight-up kill the US ISPs...
19:57:03 <Taneb> Hang on, it's the BBC Proms
19:58:05 <itidus21> im tempted to go through the kickstarter and chart my efforts at trying to do everything on their features list
20:00:23 <pikhq_> $0.00 5Mbps internet is something.
20:00:36 <itidus21> :o
20:00:50 <pikhq_> As is $70/mo 1Gbps.
20:01:06 <itidus21> `pastlog google free
20:01:31 <Taneb> itidus21, I presume this is US-only, or maybe US + Canada only
20:01:46 <HackEgo> No output.
20:01:52 <pikhq_> Taneb: Kansas City only ATM.
20:02:00 <itidus21> oh i just wanna see if i made any rants about google in here
20:02:04 <Taneb> pikhq_, including the little bit in Kansas?
20:02:12 <itidus21> am i writing the hackego query right?
20:02:13 <pikhq_> Taneb: Yes, KC KS and KC MO.
20:02:14 <itidus21> `pastlog google free
20:02:17 <Taneb> Okay
20:02:20 <pikhq_> If successful (damned well better be) it'll go elsewhere
20:02:29 <itidus21> im after any lines which contain the words google and free
20:02:32 <HackEgo> 2008-06-19.txt:15:03:02: <tusho> if you google free software, you get relevant results
20:02:41 <itidus21> oh
20:03:14 <itidus21> how do i get it to do a list of log results
20:03:20 <itidus21> damn im forgetting how it all works
20:03:28 <itidus21> `postlog google free
20:03:31 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: postlog: not found
20:04:19 <itidus21> maybe there was only 1 result
20:04:32 <itidus21> `pastlog google
20:04:41 <HackEgo> 2009-08-17.txt:20:05:21: <ehird> (this is despite the fact that when I answer such questions I almost always use google)
20:05:06 <itidus21> `help
20:05:08 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:05:55 <itidus21> `pastlogs google free
20:05:58 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
20:08:39 <Taneb> I've heard that in China, workers for google free political prisoners
20:09:01 <itidus21> ok found it
20:09:27 <itidus21> `pastelogs google free
20:09:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.7723
20:09:48 <Taneb> @tell oerjan I got bored of Sheldon... on the comic for the 9th of March, 2012
20:09:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:10:09 <itidus21> `pastelogs google*free
20:10:16 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.6503
20:10:41 <itidus21> `pastelogs google*free
20:10:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32401
20:11:01 <itidus21> `pastelogs google.*free
20:11:03 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, what comic?
20:11:08 <Taneb> Sheldon
20:11:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9443
20:11:18 <Phantom__Hoover> Ah.
20:11:58 <Taneb> If I install Ubuntu on a computer, how hard is it to then install Windows on it as well at a later date?
20:12:00 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/x74gh/arcades_need_to_make_a_comeback_ive_decided_to/
20:12:00 <itidus21> `pastelogs google.*evil
20:12:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.22094
20:12:08 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah! Arcades need to make a comeback!
20:12:27 <Taneb> One of my friends had that idea
20:12:28 <Phantom__Hoover> I'm sick of companies trying to milk me for cash with empty Pavlovian hooks!
20:12:39 <Taneb> I tried playing Mario Kart Arcade 2.
20:12:41 <Taneb> It was weird
20:12:45 <Taneb> And expensive
20:13:41 <Taneb> And Ms Pacman was playable!?
20:13:47 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: its actually more healthy
20:14:11 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, in a time when people will bitch about basically any pay model other than a single flat fee the only reason arcades can be seen as respectable is through rose-tinted goggles.
20:14:12 <itidus21> by travelling to the arcade you get your daily vitamin d sunlight, and a motivation to stop playing
20:16:03 <itidus21> `pastelogs people.*like.*google
20:16:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.14338
20:16:15 <Taneb> itidus21, it cost money.
20:16:20 <Taneb> itidus21, it's away from home
20:16:28 <Taneb> itidus21, there's nasty people who hog the tetris
20:16:38 <itidus21> its good to get away from home a bit
20:17:07 <Phantom__Hoover> You could also just go for a walk of your own volition rather than acting like a rat in a maze.
20:17:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Just putting that out there.
20:17:28 <itidus21> you would think so
20:17:31 <itidus21> but
20:18:10 <Taneb> Of my friends, I have one who lives pretty much one my street, and one who lives 3 or 4 miles away
20:18:19 <itidus21> it's tough times we live in, unlike pre-civilization
20:18:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Don't leave me hanging, dammit.
20:18:43 <itidus21> there
20:18:54 <Taneb> Edinburgh's like, 3 or 4 miles away from Hexham, right?
20:19:27 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, these days you can't go for a walk for fear of dangerous wildlife everywhere and a total lack of infrastructure.
20:19:31 <itidus21> Phantom__Hoover: after i heard a guy died in an internet cafe due to being hooked like a labrat
20:19:51 <Taneb> Okay, Phantom__Hoover, I have a friend who lives just under 100 miles away
20:19:54 <Taneb> YOU HAPPY NOW
20:19:59 <itidus21> i have seriously started to wonder about how bad things are
20:20:30 <itidus21> i am encouraged to eat due to diabetes :D
20:20:36 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, they had it much easier 300 years ago when nobody got addicted to anything.
20:20:52 <Phantom__Hoover> And everyone spent their life going on fulfilling nature walks.
20:21:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Horrible things aren't going to stop happening just because the context has changed, and just because they now happen in different ways doesn't mean the context is to blame.
20:22:00 <itidus21> i know what you mean
20:22:09 <Taneb> Google Maps has started doing cycling directions
20:22:16 <itidus21> yeah
20:22:20 <Taneb> And it doesn't want me to cycle up Allendale Road
20:22:23 <itidus21> hmm
20:22:27 <Taneb> I dunno, it's pretty steep
20:22:34 <Phantom__Hoover> As Taneb has just demonstrated, these are the days of miracle and wonder.
20:22:50 <Taneb> But I need to be up that hill anyway
20:22:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Also you're lucky it's not telling you to catch any ferries.
20:22:58 <itidus21> lol
20:23:05 <Taneb> To get a ferry...
20:23:13 <elliott> is itidus21 saying the past was better
20:23:15 <Taneb> I think the nearest ferry would be 25 miles in the other direction
20:23:43 <Phantom__Hoover> (I assume you've seen the thing where the walking instructions between any two points sufficiently far apart in the UK will go via Ireland.
20:23:44 <Phantom__Hoover> *)
20:23:48 <itidus21> elliott: i only half said it before i was corrected
20:23:51 <Taneb> (I have not)
20:24:17 <Phantom__Hoover> I think it's because it doesn't count ferries in its distance calculations.
20:24:32 <Taneb> That wants me to take about 4 ferries
20:24:50 <Taneb> (Edinburgh to Oxford. First two sufficiently far apart places I thought of)
20:25:25 <itidus21> next thing google maps should do is indicate human wayfarers on maps
20:25:35 <itidus21> ^in directions
20:25:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Try John O' Groats to Land's End.
20:25:56 <Taneb> (Troon -> Larne, Larne -> Stranraer, Stranraer -> Belfast, Belfast -> Liverpool)
20:25:56 <itidus21> lol
20:26:17 <Phantom__Hoover> The sad part is that I think I've been on three of those ferries.
20:26:57 <Phantom__Hoover> Wow, John o' Groats to Land's End takes you through France.
20:27:27 <Taneb> Dammit, Google Maps, John O'Groats isn't in Lizard Point
20:27:55 <Phantom__Hoover> It also stops over in Mann.
20:28:22 <Taneb> That's like, 2 and a quarter different countries!
20:28:22 <Phantom__Hoover> ...this route encompasses all the major constituents of the British Isles.
20:28:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Oh wait I guess it doesn't go through Wales.
20:28:31 <Taneb> Even Wight?
20:28:38 <Phantom__Hoover> I did say 'major' though.
20:28:49 <Taneb> EVEN LINDESFARNE!?
20:29:05 <Phantom__Hoover> (Fuck, where is Lindesfarne.)
20:29:07 <Taneb> FORMERLY CENTRE OF BRITISH CHRISTIANITY
20:29:20 <Phantom__Hoover> It's on the east coast right?
20:29:27 <Taneb> Yeah
20:29:42 <Taneb> It's sort of not really an island
20:29:47 <Taneb> It's an island in high tide
20:29:55 <Taneb> Ish
20:30:02 <Phantom__Hoover> Is it this thing called 'Holy Island'.
20:30:09 <Taneb> Sort of
20:30:13 <Taneb> Holy Island's the village
20:30:17 <Taneb> The island's Lindesfarne
20:30:23 <Phantom__Hoover> (I found it easily because the English coast is so boring.)
20:30:33 <Taneb> (yeah, it is, isn't it?)
20:30:54 <itidus21> Catch a train to the station, walk 2 km to the bridge across the lake. Locate the old hermit under the bridge, he will give you safe passage to the mystical grotto.
20:30:55 <Taneb> (is that why you let us have up to the Tweed? Does it all get interesting after the Tweed?)
20:31:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Nah, it's still pretty boring up to the Forth.
20:31:46 <itidus21> Many google cars ran out of fuel searching for the mystical grotto.
20:31:56 <Taneb> Can we have up to the Forth, then?
20:31:57 <itidus21> You are on your own now.
20:32:22 <Taneb> Hang on
20:32:33 <Taneb> Edinburgh's South of the Forth, isn't it
20:32:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Yeah, but it's still on the interesting part of the coast.
20:32:59 <Taneb> So's every major city in Canada
20:34:21 <Phantom__Hoover> It's so weird when you look at the map and realise that most of the UK's parallel with the Hudson Bay.
20:35:10 <Taneb> It's like North America slipped south but kept its weather
20:35:46 <Taneb> Or Europe north
20:35:48 <Taneb> That works too
20:35:59 <Taneb> Probably better, gulf stream and all
20:36:04 <itidus21> directions to this location are restricted. login with your google account and we will email the directions to you.
20:36:13 <Phantom__Hoover> Hmm, you know I think technically the northwest of Scotland is actually a separate island.
20:36:21 <Phantom__Hoover> I can't find any break in the water in the Great Glen.
20:37:02 <Taneb> You know the Great Glen is the same thing as the Norwegian Fjords and the coast of Newfoundland?
20:37:20 <Phantom__Hoover> Um.
20:37:37 <itidus21> earth would be so much more boring if there was no water
20:37:42 <Phantom__Hoover> It's part of the same geotectonomatic thing, yeay.
20:37:44 <Phantom__Hoover> *yeah
20:37:47 <Taneb> itidus21, for a start there'd be no life
20:38:26 <itidus21> and any idiot could just walk from A to B
20:38:38 <itidus21> without a boat or a plane
20:38:40 <Taneb> If you could find an idiot, yeah
20:39:43 <itidus21> ah water. you provide is with life, refreshment, icecubes, showers, and continents
20:39:50 <itidus21> ^us
20:40:01 <itidus21> and rain
20:40:12 <itidus21> and clouds :-s
20:40:28 <itidus21> and swimming
20:40:42 <itidus21> fish
20:40:58 <itidus21> fishing, surfing, boating, skiing, snow, snowmen
20:41:04 <itidus21> dear god.. its the gift that keeps on giving
20:41:55 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, but um I thought fjords were isomorphic to firths
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20:42:30 <Phantom__Hoover> Apparently they're not.
20:42:54 <Phantom__Hoover> No wait they are but not quite.
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20:43:39 <itidus21> ice skating, igloos, sodapop, hydroelectricity
20:44:28 <itidus21> waterfalls, fountains, weird russian computers
20:46:15 <Phantom__Hoover> Don't forget, a convenient strong polar solvent.
20:52:25 <nooga> ha
20:52:36 <nooga> I've managed to compile Brogue for iPad
20:52:52 <nooga> the bad thing is that it does not render anything
20:52:54 <nooga> ;d
20:58:21 <elliott> brogue on ipad sounds awful... the mouse control needs pretty fine precision
20:58:27 <elliott> probably better than most other roguelikes though i guess
20:58:37 <elliott> maybe if you added a zoomed viewport, crawl-style
20:58:44 <elliott> nooga: how far have you gotten in brogue?
21:02:10 <nooga> i came back with the amulet
21:02:22 <nooga> but never got deeper than 26
21:06:18 <elliott> mm
21:06:22 <elliott> I haven't managed to get the amulet yet :(
21:06:26 <elliott> my best game splatted on D:21
21:06:59 <elliott> I had a really good game with +8 regen, +3 wisdom, staff of lightning [5], and a naga and troll for allies
21:07:04 <elliott> but it died due to my stupidity and some bad turns
21:07:20 <elliott> (+8 regen = you refill your HP in 32 turns, not 300-ish)
21:07:30 <elliott> (from 0)
21:07:50 <elliott> (or is that from 1%? whatever)
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21:08:55 <nooga> well
21:09:04 <nooga> the game I finished was quite lucky
21:10:08 <nooga> I had +7 War Axe
21:10:30 <nooga> and +3 runic armor [8]
21:10:51 <nooga> and +4 ring of transference
21:10:57 <nooga> + some staves
21:11:27 <nooga> so I just meeled everything and tried to get to lvl 26 as fast as I can
21:11:46 <elliott> what runic? unidentified? (what armour type?)
21:11:50 <nooga> funny thing that lvl 26 was really calm, I encountered only two bloats
21:11:56 <elliott> haha, bloats
21:12:05 <elliott> I hear the standard wisdom is to clear up to D:20 and then dive for the amulet
21:13:03 <nooga> AFAIR it was banded mail of absorbtion
21:13:37 <nooga> mh
21:15:50 <nooga> next time I will try to get some lumenstones
21:16:11 <elliott> nooga: I hear that plate mail is better than any other armour
21:16:19 <elliott> regardless of enchantment or runic
21:16:22 <elliott> because of the armour formula
21:20:17 <nooga> If you have enough str
21:21:49 <elliott> nooga: yeah
21:21:54 <elliott> nooga: enchanting an item reduces its str penalties, though
21:22:03 <elliott> if you enchant up a war pike or whatever you can use it really early on
21:22:12 <nooga> yes
21:22:24 <nooga> that's why I put +7 on the war axe
21:22:29 <nooga> and relied on transference
21:25:25 <elliott> I hear transference is considered not very good... not sure why
21:26:35 <nooga> stupid iPad
21:26:43 <nooga> the game loop runs flawlessly
21:26:50 <nooga> the problem is that i see black screen
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21:35:18 <nooga> btw. I'm trying to write some kind of web enabled roguelike in js
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22:40:31 <nooga> hm
22:41:02 <nooga> looks like my js 'screen driver' works quite fast
22:42:54 <elliott> clearly i should get nooga to write my brogue patch for me
22:45:05 <nooga> what's the patch?
22:47:45 <elliott> nooga: i am trying to write a patch to add broadcast/spectating support so you can broadcast games and other people can watch
22:47:49 <elliott> because it is lonely not having that from crawl
22:52:34 <itidus21> humm
22:54:52 <nooga> hmm
22:55:01 <nooga> actually
22:55:17 <elliott> I should buy this Humble Music Bundle thing just for TMBG's cover of Tubthumping.
22:55:18 <nooga> that js display that i'm writing
22:55:31 <nooga> would be ideal for that
22:55:43 <elliott> nooga: well, the idea is to spectate with brogue itself
22:55:49 <nooga> oh
22:55:55 <elliott> adding a browser backend thing to brogue would be viable too I think
22:56:45 <nooga> hm, brogue collects all the changes that it makes to the screen before displaying them
22:57:11 <elliott> yes, that's my plan for spectating
22:57:18 <elliott> simply hook into each display and write it to the network toot
22:57:25 <elliott> the harder part is adjusting the main loop for *spectating*
22:57:32 <elliott> since you have to bypass the normal game loop stuff
22:58:17 <nooga> I'd write another view for that
22:58:34 <itidus21> trying to define computer game. so far stuck on "interactive software which has no output except for the user interface, and" which isn't going to hold
22:58:45 <nooga> it would simply display the changes
22:59:33 <elliott> nooga: yeah, the problem is that it still needs a main loop of some kind, and I still need to handle keypresses from the platform code
22:59:37 <elliott> so you can quit
22:59:50 <elliott> itidus21: save files are output
22:59:56 <itidus21> :D
22:59:56 <nooga> uh
23:00:01 <nooga> i closed xcode
23:00:24 <nooga> i'm too lazy to open it to see the code
23:01:01 <itidus21> yeah.. and i disagree personally with interactive
23:01:23 <itidus21> i believe a movie can be an extreme example of a game
23:01:59 <itidus21> freaking continuums make it hard to categorize things
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23:03:39 <nooga> hehe
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23:05:00 <nooga> i think the ultimately linear game would be about Warsaw's subway system
23:05:27 <elliott> nooga: anyway ideally it would be able to synchronise *visible game state* rather than terminal output, because broadcasting each little twinkle of water is inefficient, but...
23:05:43 <nooga> hm
23:05:48 <itidus21> i'm not good enough at natural language to express exactly what i am thinking but i am going to try anyway
23:06:35 <itidus21> one thing about game is that it is only a subset of computer programs
23:07:28 <itidus21> even if the program utilizes audio, video, input, output, networking, it cannot be determined if it is a game
23:08:07 <itidus21> it's such a subjective thing
23:10:35 <itidus21> as far as i am concerned, among the worst programs in the world are retail business data entry programs
23:10:44 <nooga> elliott: in the worst case the whole screen weights circa 33,2 kB
23:11:53 <nooga> excuse me, it could be squished into 26,5kB
23:12:42 <elliott> nooga: well only updates are sent so it is a bit better
23:12:52 <elliott> I suppose it is a lot better than your average YouTube video :p
23:14:19 <nooga> but we'd also need a server, at least to list the active games
23:15:24 <elliott> well i already have a server and the server software itself would be pretty eays
23:15:27 <elliott> I was just going to hack up a python script
23:15:28 <elliott> *easy
23:17:05 * pikhq_ sputters slightly more at Google Fiber
23:17:06 <pikhq_> It's symmetric.
23:18:15 <elliott> it is the first thing to ever make me think "if only I lived in kansas city"
23:19:16 <pikhq_> Yeah.
23:26:06 <Phantom__Hoover> fucking kansers
23:27:34 <kmc> technically they are launching it in two cities
23:27:41 <kmc> both are named kansas city bot only one is in kansas
23:28:07 <elliott> :(
23:29:41 <oklopol> hello world
23:30:52 <oklopol> i admire how the nicks on the right of my screen manage to form a collection together
23:37:42 <nooga> elliott: hm, I just checked the code
23:38:02 <elliott> me too!
23:38:07 <elliott> i've been doing a lot of checking the code
23:38:11 <elliott> annoyingly little writing it, but i am getting there
23:38:17 <elliott> IO.c is sort of a mess
23:38:24 <nooga> yep
23:39:28 <elliott> I am basically writing it messily and hackily and then I will attempt to clean it up once I have demonstrated that the basic principle is sound
23:45:35 <quintopia> !bfjoust simplelock http://sprunge.us/XNMY
23:45:45 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_simplelock: 34.6
23:45:59 <elliott> wow, that is simple
23:47:31 <quintopia> the hill's become weak to locks
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23:48:09 <quintopia> that's just the example program from the wiki with a longer pause at the beginning
23:50:51 <quintopia> also the funny thing about that lock is that it would lock different programs depending on whether the pause is odd or even length.
23:51:11 <quintopia> and changing the odd-even parity of a rush could trivially beat it
23:57:19 <nooga> huh
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2012-07-27
00:01:58 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:02:33 <elliott> nooga: huh
00:06:56 -!- segorev has joined.
00:20:15 <quintopia> elliott: nooga: huh
00:21:57 <elliott> huh
00:25:33 <elliott> https://blogs.oracle.com/projectfortress/entry/fortress_wrapping_up oh dear
00:27:28 <nooga> what an awkward name
00:27:48 <elliott> Fortress?
00:34:38 <nooga> y
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00:58:30 <nooga> i think i'll go to sleep
00:59:00 <elliott> what a silly idea
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01:05:43 <nooga> I guess i'm getting old
01:07:19 <nooga> oh, please let me know if you succeed in sending some data from brogue - I'd love to help with that patch
01:08:05 <elliott> thanks! I will certainly push on with it
01:08:14 <nooga> gn8
01:08:28 <elliott> gn9
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01:59:50 <Sgeo_> Is the version of SICP that seems to be making the rounds substantially different from the SICP from MIT?
02:01:27 <elliott> "Making the rounds"?
02:04:55 <Sgeo_> On /r/programming and also the Clojure facebook page linked to it
02:06:10 <elliott> http://sicpebook.wordpress.com/ebook/ it seems it is adequately described here
02:10:23 <Sgeo_> hmm
02:10:29 <Sgeo_> I'm already using an epub version
02:10:45 <Sgeo_> Haven't touched it in a while though, I should resume
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02:56:46 <elliott> omg
02:56:48 <elliott> monqy: nsqx is back
02:56:58 <monqy> omg
02:56:58 <coppro> lies
02:57:16 <elliott> (Move log); 16:22 . . NSQX (Talk | contribs | block) moved page User:NSQX/CPUFuck.cpp to User:NSQX/CPUFuck.c ‎
02:57:16 <elliott> (diff | hist) . . User:NSQX/CPUFuck.cpp‎; 16:21 . . (+30)‎ . . ‎NSQX (Talk | contribs | block)‎
03:10:07 <Sgeo_> Is that the guy who wanted to use a bot to make a lot of pages?
03:10:57 <shachaf> monqy: Today I tried to type "monkey island".
03:11:03 <shachaf> Except it came out "monqy island".
03:11:10 <shachaf> I don't know why I confused the two. :-(
03:11:16 <monqy> :-(
03:11:29 <shachaf> monqy: It's OK. :-)
03:11:39 <monqy> :-)
03:12:53 <shachaf> monqy: Anyway, hopefully I won't confuse them again. �-�
03:16:27 <elliott> Sgeo_: yes
03:28:29 <Sgeo_> Is NSQX talking to himself?
03:28:44 <Sgeo_> Well, ok, I guess that's not so bad. Deciding one thing and then changing his mind if he decides he's wrong
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06:38:32 <mroman> @tell AnotherTest It's required for displaying results as HTML
06:38:32 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
06:38:39 <mroman> 9.*1.+9 1r~
06:38:39 <lambdabot> mroman: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
06:38:53 <mroman> ^- binary increment. How it works is left as an exercise for the reader :D
06:40:13 <mroman> It only involves black magic.
06:46:10 <mroman> http://eso.mroman.ch/cgi/burlesque.cgi?q={100+110+111}{9.*1.%2B9+1r~}m[
06:50:38 <mroman> 9.*1.-9 1r~8 0r~ would be decrement.
06:56:48 <mroman> @messages
06:56:48 <lambdabot> AnotherTest said 11h 54m 28s ago: http://esolangs.org/wiki/HELP_(Preprocessor) I find some alternatives rather useful when writing burlesque code.
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07:32:02 <shachaf> 00:31 <ion> you’re wachaf
07:32:10 <shachaf> kmc: I'm totally wachaf!
07:32:19 <kmc> nice
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08:29:09 <oerjan> @messages
08:29:09 <lambdabot> Taneb said 12h 19m 21s ago: I got bored of Sheldon... on the comic for the 9th of March, 2012
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08:34:15 <oerjan> @tell Taneb Do you have many of these 95% finished projects?
08:34:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:02:50 * oerjan wonders if he has seen the characters from today's google doodle somewhere else...
09:07:49 <oerjan> well they're definitely _not_ the games mascots
09:08:21 <Vorpal> the game mascots are utterly silly btw
09:10:20 <oerjan> duh
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09:15:33 <itidus21> oh no i missed it
09:15:36 <itidus21> humm
09:15:50 <itidus21> no matter
09:16:16 <itidus21> could see it on the web if i really cared
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09:20:54 <oerjan> missed what
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10:07:19 <itidus21> opening ceremony
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10:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> XChat is defaulting to connecting to eu-irc.net for some reason.
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11:06:50 <nooga> http://cl.ly/image/2D0U1O0k0F2e haha
11:09:49 <Sgeo_> Dylan seems to be trying to make a revival
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11:10:01 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, when does Red Dwarf start to suck?
11:10:10 <Sgeo_> I know you said season 8 sucks, but seasons before that?
11:10:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Season 7.
11:10:17 <Sgeo_> Ah. I finished season 7.
11:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I wasn't so fond of 6 but it's solid enough.
11:10:58 <Sgeo_> Is a dynamic, statically-typed language too much to ask for?
11:15:27 <Jafet> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/DeferErrorsToRuntime
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11:16:56 <Jafet> Aww: "Currently we cannot defer kind errors because we do not create coercions for kind equalities."
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11:37:35 <Sgeo_> <Associat0r> ?alternatives
11:37:35 <Sgeo_> <dbot> alternatives == Modern alternative Systems Langua
11:37:40 <Sgeo_> <Associat0r> !reset alternatives Modern alternative Systems Languages to D: Rust, ATS, Deca, Score, Epoch, Disciple(DDC), Idris
11:37:56 <Sgeo_> Due to Neat's unconstrained null
11:38:10 <Sgeo_> Oh wait that second line got cut off
11:38:20 <Sgeo_> <dbot> alternatives == Modern alternative Systems Languages to D: Rust, ATS, Deca, Score, Epoch, Neat, Disciple(DDC), Idris
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14:08:13 <Sgeo_> Dylan seems interesting
14:08:24 <quintopia> hi Sgeo_
14:08:43 <Sgeo_> If only the ecosystem wasn't so bad that there isn't even a version for 64-bit Windows and no GUI stuff for anything other than Windows
14:09:12 <Sgeo_> Hi quintopia
14:10:02 <quintopia> do you ever do anything but try new languages
14:10:34 <Sgeo_> Occasionally
14:11:32 <quintopia> like what
14:12:26 <Sgeo_> Wrote a quick script to make a single HTML file recently.
14:12:41 <Sgeo_> Did some stuff in Second Life less recently, and intend to resume that
14:13:08 <Sgeo_> Intend to write an IRC bot once Homestuck starts updating again
14:13:08 <Sgeo_> n
14:20:36 <quintopia> that yells about updates whenever they happen?
14:20:43 <quintopia> arent there already botsthat do that
14:21:16 <Sgeo_> Yeah, but I want my bot to ping people who opt in, and also do similar for Hussie's twitter and tumblr
14:36:25 <Sgeo_> I am so bored
14:36:46 <Sgeo_> I seem to get bored more easily when I'm waiting for something than when I don't have anything to do
14:48:23 <coppro> BST is UTC+1, right?
14:48:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Yyeeeessss.... yes.
14:48:48 <coppro> so 6 hours give or take to olympics?
14:48:50 <coppro> err
14:48:54 <coppro> right, see I screwed up there
14:48:55 <coppro> 7 hours
14:49:04 <coppro> (9pm bst)
14:49:07 <coppro> ... no wait
14:49:10 <coppro> 5 hours?
14:49:13 <coppro> I CAN MATH
14:50:08 <mroman> Good.
14:50:21 <mroman> I can't ;)
14:52:24 <mroman> I think I have some latent dyscalculia but nobody seems to realize it :D
14:53:45 <mroman> Things I do wrong during linear algebra
14:53:50 <mroman> 4-0 = -4
14:54:25 <mroman> Things I do wrong in Analysis: x^2 + (y-4)^2 = 0 <- unsolvable
14:56:28 <mroman> I usually only get 50% of the maximum points because of such little mistakes
14:56:44 <mroman> if it weren't for partial points I'd failed years ago.
15:03:12 <coppro> haha
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15:34:18 <elliott> "With permission of Pender, author of Brogue, I have released a (not the official) port of Brogue as a paid app on the Android market.
15:34:19 <elliott> Note that it is expensively priced to discourage casual purchase, or haphazard installation."
15:34:24 <elliott> haphazard installation
15:34:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ,wow
15:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> how much
15:35:28 <elliott> apparently 1 pound 27 pence is expensive
15:35:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oh i thought it would be like 30
15:36:10 <Phantom_Hoover> so what, is it to keep them damn casuals out
15:37:38 <elliott> idk
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15:42:18 <quintopia> because a game is likely to be installed in such a way that it bricks your phone, of course
15:42:56 <quintopia> i've bricked twelve phones that way
15:46:39 <nooga> ah
15:47:40 <quintopia> nooga: ah
15:49:12 <itidus21> is that a joke?
15:50:53 <elliott> nooga: ah
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16:06:35 <nooga> aha!
16:07:28 <nooga> why do dentists in UK are so bad and expensive?
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16:10:51 <quintopia> nooga: i don't know. why?
16:11:35 <nooga> when I was in London I got a terrible toothache
16:12:08 <nooga> so I went to a dentist and the visit was even more terrible than the ache
16:12:53 <nooga> I paid 100 pounds for x-ray photo and hearing that the tooth is broken and it needs to be fixed or extracted
16:13:14 <nooga> and the first procedure would cost me 270 pounds on top of that 100
16:13:17 <nooga> :D
16:13:26 <quintopia> D:
16:13:37 <nooga> so basically the dentist did nothing, she couldn't even prescribe painkillers
16:13:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Dentists are expensive because they're only partly funded by the NHS.
16:14:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So I think it's pretty cheap if you're under the NHS's discounts.
16:15:14 <nooga> well - I wasn't
16:15:16 <nooga> BUT
16:15:34 <nooga> the whole surgery room was a mess, it looked like taken straight from 60's
16:15:43 <nooga> except for the chair
16:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Can't speak for that, my surgery is dated but in good order.
16:17:21 <nooga> I went back to Poland and seen my dentist (private practice) and got the tooth done for something like 60 pounds
16:17:59 <nooga> with modern equipment
16:18:55 <nooga> so the airline ticket + the procedure was cheaper than this whole useless visit
16:21:09 <quintopia> nice
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16:24:50 <nooga> yeah
16:26:55 <nooga> elliott: I wonder how is it possible to play brogue on a phone ;/
16:27:17 <Vorpal> nooga, what about tablets?
16:27:34 <nooga> i'm porting it to iPad retina
16:27:50 <Vorpal> could work, probably suboptimal though
16:27:55 <nooga> but the guy who makes the android port uses some kind of a smartphone
16:28:02 <Vorpal> oh?
16:28:05 <elliott> nooga: I think it'll work on most things if you have some kind of viewport zooming/scrolling
16:28:18 <elliott> so you can flick around the viewport and it moves with you
16:28:20 <nooga> it can be pretty annoying
16:28:34 <nooga> based from what i've seen in HoMM II for android
16:28:39 <Vorpal> elliott, sure it will /work/ but input is probably terrible unless completely changed
16:28:46 <Vorpal> nooga, HoMM?
16:28:51 <elliott> well brogue is pretty mouse-supporting already
16:28:55 <Vorpal> hm
16:28:55 <nooga> heroes of might and magic
16:29:09 <nooga> and SDL port for android
16:29:11 <Vorpal> elliott, a mouse is also way more precise than a finger
16:29:26 <elliott> Vorpal: thus the zooming
16:29:44 <Vorpal> still pretty clunky
16:30:03 <quintopia> i can see roguelikes working on my phone pretty well. it has a hwk with dir pad.
16:30:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, hwk?
16:30:29 <nooga> aaah
16:30:37 <nooga> the sun is killing meeeee
16:31:24 <Vorpal> quintopia, what do you mean with "hwk"?
16:32:57 <quintopia> hardware keyboard
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16:33:05 <Vorpal> ah well yes that would definitely help
16:33:18 <Vorpal> quintopia, now imagine playing it on a phone that is all screen, like the galaxy nexus
16:33:24 <Vorpal> won't work as well
16:33:42 <quintopia> well, you'd have to adapt the interface for sure
16:33:46 <quintopia> but that's true of all games
16:33:50 <Vorpal> indeed
16:34:32 <quintopia> but roguelikes dont really require typing things most of the time, so adaptation should be straightforward if effortful
16:34:53 <Vorpal> dpad certainly helps, without one you are going to run into issues with making sure the user sees enough of the world on the screen while still keeping it readable and also clickable
16:34:53 <quintopia> aka, all actions can be done by tapping instead
16:35:01 <Vorpal> and zooming out and in all the time is not that fun
16:36:05 <elliott> dpads are impractical for existing roguelikes
16:36:06 <Vorpal> quintopia, the thing is, tapping is imprecise compared to a mouse. So you need a much larger area to click on than with a mouse
16:36:08 <elliott> diagonal movement is incredibly importnat
16:36:14 <quintopia> Vorpal: replace the onscreen dpad with the ability to tap a destination and have a route automatically found to it. if you need fine-grained movement, tape the corresponding edge of the screen instead
16:36:17 <elliott> anyway brogue has a good interface for relatively imprecise taps
16:36:19 <Vorpal> elliott, I assumed he meant a 8 dir dpad?
16:37:03 <quintopia> Vorpal: irrelevant. it's a full keyboard. i could use qweasdzxc
16:37:16 <Vorpal> what about doing the stuff chrome on android does when you click a link when zoomed out and there are multiple possible links you could have clicked on?
16:37:23 <quintopia> dunno what s would do tho :P
16:37:34 <Vorpal> showing a small pop-upish thing with a zoomed in view of those so you can click which one you meant
16:37:36 <quintopia> opera mini does that too
16:37:45 <Vorpal> it responds a bit slow
16:37:50 <Vorpal> even on a Galaxy S3
16:38:16 <quintopia> no? opera mini is great mobile broswer. i use it for half of all surfing
16:38:23 <Vorpal> I meant in chrome at least
16:38:33 <quintopia> oh
16:38:35 <Vorpal> quintopia, opera mini is kind of buggy under ICS wrt multi tasking
16:38:38 <Vorpal> at least for me
16:38:58 <quintopia> yeah me too
16:39:00 <quintopia> but it doesnt matter
16:39:13 <Vorpal> well, it is annoying enough for me that I don't use opera mini thus
16:39:52 <quintopia> ah. it's easy enough to launch it agaain the regular way, because it's not actually quit, just doesnt show up in the app list all the time.
16:39:57 <quintopia> it always saves all state
16:40:05 <quintopia> bettter than other broswers
16:40:14 <Vorpal> quintopia, I had to open the app info and select force close to make it work again a couple of times
16:40:18 <Vorpal> stopped using it after that
16:40:25 <quintopia> oh i never had that
16:40:43 <quintopia> i have to do that with irssi connectbot sometimes
16:41:17 <quintopia> i use dolphin hd when i need private browsing, javascript, or flash
16:41:21 <Vorpal> quintopia, what does irssi have to do with connectbot?
16:41:28 <quintopia> i have it routed through orbot/tor
16:42:00 <quintopia> Vorpal: "irssi connectbot" is the full name of the app. it is a branch of connectbot
16:42:06 <Vorpal> oh okay
16:42:13 <Vorpal> quintopia, how does it differ from connectbot?
16:42:30 <quintopia> adds support for certain irssi specific gestures
16:42:49 <Vorpal> irssi gestures eh
16:43:03 <Vorpal> are you running irssi locally then? Or remotely?
16:43:08 <quintopia> like double-tap/camera button to switch to active channel, swipe to move up or down channel number or scroll up and down in the channel
16:43:13 <quintopia> remotely
16:43:48 <Vorpal> your phone seems to have an absurd amount of hardware buttons :P
16:43:57 <Vorpal> what model is it
16:44:05 <quintopia> it doesnt have a camera button
16:44:08 <quintopia> but my old phone did
16:44:10 <Vorpal> ah
16:44:59 <quintopia> this is a D3. it has a 5-row keyboard, a power button, and a volume up/down switch
16:45:15 <quintopia> then the standard four soft menu buttons below the touchscreen
16:46:16 <quintopia> irssi connectbot uses the volume switch to change the screen resolution. regular connectbot probably does the same.
16:48:05 <Vorpal> hm
16:48:07 <Vorpal> D3?
16:48:12 <Vorpal> which brand is that
16:48:47 <Vorpal> quintopia, anyway connectbot never had problems with multitasking for me
16:49:39 <Vorpal> I don't use the market version of it though, since I decided to write for it not multiplying the font sizes with the DPI scaling factor
16:49:46 <Vorpal> so I use the git version
16:50:02 <Vorpal> s/write for/write a patch for/
16:51:09 <quintopia> Vorpal: motorola. the problem is that every now and then, the alt button quits working, so you can't type symbols without holding it down while typing, which is annoying and nonintuitive by now.
16:51:59 <Vorpal> quintopia, hardware glitch?
16:52:05 <Vorpal> or software bug
16:52:17 <quintopia> Vorpal: killing and restarting connectbot fixes it.
16:52:24 <Vorpal> hm
16:54:42 <Vorpal> there are a few other things I have been thinking about patching in connectbot
16:55:11 <Vorpal> can't really help you with the issue you have, since I don't have a hardware alt key, nor a hardware keyboard at all
16:55:31 <Vorpal> what I want to add is a easy to way to send tab
17:00:35 <nooga> time for Brogue session
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17:16:48 <nooga> hoooh
17:16:54 <nooga> killed by jackal at level 4
17:16:54 <nooga> ;/
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17:18:57 <elliott> nooga: a jackal? nice
17:22:36 <nooga> there was no equipment
17:22:51 <nooga> and I've missed a machine room
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18:41:49 <Taneb> Hello
18:41:49 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
18:42:54 <Taneb> Man, I've forgotten the context for that
18:43:29 <Taneb> Logs say I didn't know it in the first place, but now I do
18:43:40 <Taneb> @tell oerjan Thousands upon thousands
18:43:40 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
19:00:30 <quintopia> hi taneb
19:00:36 <Taneb> Hi
19:00:36 <quintopia> hi zzo38
19:00:42 <quintopia> hi ais523
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19:21:04 <Taneb> Hello, oerjan
19:21:24 <quintopia> hi oerjan
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19:27:45 <Taneb> @where pi10
19:27:45 <lambdabot> I know nothing about pi10.
19:27:53 <Taneb> @where my hat
19:27:53 <lambdabot> I know nothing about my.
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19:31:54 <oerjan> hi all
19:31:55 <lambdabot> oerjan: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
19:31:59 <oerjan> @messages
19:31:59 <lambdabot> Taneb said 48m 19s ago: Thousands upon thousands
19:32:04 <oerjan> thought so.
19:32:33 * oerjan uses the more clever method of 5% finished projects
19:32:54 <oerjan> pi10?
19:33:16 <Taneb> Trying to remember that thing I think it was shachaf made
19:33:29 <shachaf> Taneb: What thing?
19:33:34 <Taneb> The pi thing?
19:33:38 <elliott> @whereis e10
19:33:38 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: where where+
19:33:41 <elliott> @where e10
19:33:41 <lambdabot> I know nothing about e10.
19:33:45 <elliott> @where pi
19:33:45 <lambdabot> I know nothing about pi.
19:33:45 <shachaf> @where pi_10
19:33:45 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:33:49 <shachaf> @where e_10
19:33:49 <lambdabot> let(p,q)%d=p*d`div`q;w(p,q)i=(p*i+1,q*i);(x:y:s)^d|y%d>x%d=s^d|0<1=mod(x%d)10:s^(10*d)in 2:scanl w(1,1)[1..]^10>>=show
19:33:51 <Taneb> That be the one
19:33:51 <shachaf> @where pi_11
19:33:51 <lambdabot> [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
19:33:56 <Taneb> That be the three
19:34:24 <oerjan> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:34:25 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
19:35:40 <oerjan> hm (!!1)<$>transpose seems like something that should be simplifable
19:35:54 <shachaf> Taneb: Golf it!
19:35:58 <shachaf> oerjan: Golf it!
19:36:10 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm too busy deobfuscating it
19:36:13 <shachaf> We'd love to get rid of (!!1)<$>transpose
19:36:23 <Taneb> ghci
19:36:33 <Taneb> Wrong window?
19:36:35 <Taneb> Damn
19:36:42 <oerjan> > [show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:36:43 <lambdabot> ["312","31420","314159268","31415926535897940","314159265358979323846264338...
19:36:50 <shachaf> oerjan: But keep in mind edge cases of how transpose works.
19:36:58 <Taneb> I've just got a new computer, and I need to get wifi on it
19:37:06 <Taneb> But it's really fast and it's scarily fast
19:37:18 <oerjan> hmph
19:37:21 <Taneb> And I'm expecting this laptop to be as fast as it
19:39:01 <oerjan> > [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
19:39:04 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:39:08 <oerjan> > [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
19:39:11 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:39:14 <oerjan> bah
19:39:28 <Taneb> > (!!1) <$> [show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:39:31 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:39:47 <Taneb> The transpose... is there for strictness?
19:40:03 <shachaf> No.
19:40:03 <oerjan> > transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:40:06 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:40:23 <oerjan> > transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:40:26 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:40:32 <oerjan> oh wait
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19:41:13 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined.
19:41:23 <oerjan> > head<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:41:24 <lambdabot> "31220926835897940384626433832796428841971693993751058209749445916078164062...
19:41:45 <oerjan> hm why do you need (!!1)
19:41:47 <olsner> that's not pi
19:41:56 <oerjan> i know that much
19:42:11 <olsner> it's pretty close in some places though
19:42:19 <oerjan> oh right
19:42:22 <Taneb> Try it with (!!2)
19:42:34 <oerjan> > (!!2)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:42:37 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:42:46 <oerjan> > (!!2)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
19:42:50 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
19:43:17 <oerjan> i expect that's the same as (!!1), after a bit of thought
19:43:39 <oerjan> the (!!1) is because only the _second_ number to give a certain digit is sure to get it right
19:44:03 <Taneb> @where pi_11
19:44:03 <lambdabot> [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
19:44:12 <nooga> uhm
19:44:40 <nooga> who likes SciFi novels?
19:44:59 <olsner> readers of scifi novels
19:44:59 <Taneb> I like some of them?
19:46:07 <nooga> here's one for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem_XIV
19:46:45 <Taneb> But I've got Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep, Second Foundation, AND The Stainless Steel Rat's Revenge to read!
19:47:12 <oerjan> ok (!!1)<$>transpose is actually very clever for the purpose and i'm not sure it can be improved upon
19:50:26 <nooga> ugh
19:50:31 <nooga> it looks like perl
19:50:57 <oerjan> well it's obfuscated/golfed, of course
19:52:43 <oerjan> > (0$0.&.)
19:52:44 <lambdabot> The operator `Data.Bits..&.' [infixl 7] of a section
19:52:44 <lambdabot> must have lower p...
19:53:04 <oerjan> > (0$0*)
19:53:05 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] of a section
19:53:05 <lambdabot> must have lower prece...
19:53:12 <Taneb> @info $
19:53:12 <lambdabot> ($)
19:53:18 <Taneb> @src ($)
19:53:18 <lambdabot> f $ x = f x
19:53:24 <Taneb> @fixity ($)
19:53:24 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
19:53:33 <oerjan> > (0$0$)
19:53:33 <lambdabot> The operator `GHC.Base.$' [infixr 0] of a section
19:53:34 <lambdabot> must have lower prec...
19:53:55 <oerjan> the trick works precisely because $ has that fixity, even for $ itself
19:54:26 <oerjan> and because of the way ghc gives precedence errors
19:54:46 <Taneb> :)
19:56:29 <oerjan> 0 is just an arbitrary atomic expression, of course, since this never gets to the type checking stage
20:04:24 * oerjan wonders if anyone else is not watching the ceremony
20:04:56 <elliott> i'm watching a guy from ##crawl almost die in acehack
20:05:15 <oerjan> ah, a fine connoiseur of entertainment
20:05:25 <elliott> it's beautiful
20:06:35 <shachaf> > (!!1).transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
20:06:38 <lambdabot> "31415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062...
20:06:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Except that's lambdabot-cheating.
20:06:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i know. i wasn't even bothering to suggest it :P
20:08:42 <oerjan> > [8-i.&.3*4| i <- [0..3]]
20:08:43 <lambdabot> Ambiguous type variable `t' in the constraints:
20:08:43 <lambdabot> `Data.Bits.Bits t'
20:08:43 <lambdabot> ...
20:08:50 <oerjan> > [8-i.&.3*4| i <- [0..3::Int]]
20:08:51 <lambdabot> [8,4,0,-4]
20:09:36 -!- augur has joined.
20:10:14 <shachaf> edwardk has a file with a history that pi_10 went through.
20:10:40 <oerjan> i guess that's pretty golfed, then
20:11:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, I saw a comment where someone said that it's ridiculous that Americans value having above-average pay because everyone should have that.
20:11:45 -!- asiekierka_ has joined.
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20:15:11 <oerjan> @where pi_11
20:15:11 <lambdabot> [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])!!n|n<-[0..]]
20:15:23 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: well they probably meant lowering the baseline so that everybody has what would have been considered above-average beforehand?
20:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Well... "I dont know what the USA is like by bragging about being paid above-average wage isnt particularly a good thing in any industry; you should all have it."
20:16:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Doesn't really sound like they're saying the average American wage is too low.
20:17:02 <oerjan> > [show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])|n<-[0..]]
20:17:05 <lambdabot> ["32","312","31420","314159268","31415926535897940","3141592653589793238462...
20:17:05 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:17:38 <oerjan> > (!!1)<$>transpose[show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])|n<-[0..]]
20:17:42 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
20:17:54 <oerjan> @where pi_10
20:17:54 <lambdabot> (!!1)<$>transpose[show$sum[100^2^n`div`(a^i*i)*(8-i.&.3*4)|i<-[1,3..9*2^n],a<-[2,3]]|n<-[0..]]
20:18:22 <oerjan> (!!1)<$>transpose[show(sum[(8-i.&.3*4)*div(10^2^n)(a^i*i)|i<-[1,3..3^n],a<-[2,3]])|n<-[0..]]
20:19:03 <oerjan> i guess that's slightly shorter, but too hard for lambdabot to calculate?
20:28:18 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8).
20:31:16 <Taneb> Well, I've turned my factorial program into ART
20:31:51 <oerjan> i thought it was art already
20:32:02 <Taneb> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7u5samb5G1rysy5go1_500.png
20:32:10 <Taneb> SCARY ART
20:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> damn that's scary
20:33:21 <quintopia> what is your goal in creating such a ridiculous factorial program
20:33:50 <Phantom_Hoover> You should probably find a different channel.
20:34:12 <quintopia> i think you misinterpret me
20:34:31 <Taneb> quintopia, it is a plea for help
20:34:34 <oerjan> help me i'm trapped in an unsafePerformIO factory
20:34:42 <quintopia> what i mean is: under what constraints was it written
20:35:11 <Taneb> Um, it's a demonstration that Applicatives are really powerful
20:35:23 <Taneb> Especially when combined with unsafeCoerce
20:35:52 <Taneb> Then I just had some fun with it
20:36:17 <oerjan> quintopia: Applicative (-> r), hth
20:36:24 <oerjan> wait
20:36:25 <Taneb> hth?
20:36:32 <Taneb> ((->) r)
20:36:35 <oerjan> *quintopia: Applicative (r ->), hth
20:36:41 <Taneb> define:hth
20:36:42 <shachaf> Functor
20:36:47 <oerjan> hope this helps
20:36:49 <Taneb> Okay
20:36:58 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't think I use fmap at all
20:37:03 <quintopia> would knowing haskell help
20:37:09 <Taneb> Oh, I do
20:37:13 <shachaf> Wait, misread.
20:37:16 <Taneb> quintopia, kinda
20:37:17 <quintopia> would knowing any categorry theory at all help
20:37:21 <Taneb> Probably not
20:37:36 <Taneb> I think Haskell made up Applicatives
20:37:39 <oerjan> gory cats
20:38:04 <oerjan> Taneb: they're supposedly equivalent to something categorical about products (tuples)
20:38:12 <elliott> if by haskell you mean conor mcbride
20:38:21 <elliott> oerjan: empty :: f (); pair :: f a -> f b -> f (a,b)
20:38:28 <elliott> oerjan: is equivalent, in Haskell, because all Haskell functors are strong, IIRC
20:38:34 <elliott> applicatives are ... strong lax monoidal functors?
20:38:42 <oerjan> something like that was the term
20:38:55 <Taneb> pure x = fmap (const x) empty?
20:39:11 <elliott> Taneb: yes, or empty <$ x
20:39:21 <elliott> (<*>) goes along the same lines too, it's simple to define
20:39:25 <Taneb> Yeah
20:39:29 <Taneb> Hmm
20:40:10 <oerjan> * x <$ empty, i think
20:40:14 <oerjan> :t (<$)
20:40:15 <lambdabot> forall a (f :: * -> *) b. (Functor f) => a -> f b -> f a
20:40:26 <Taneb> Or empty $> x?
20:40:28 <Taneb> :t ($>)
20:40:29 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `$>'
20:40:31 <Taneb> :(
20:42:26 <oerjan> :t (>$)
20:42:27 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `>$'
20:42:33 <oerjan> nah
20:42:57 <Taneb> $> is a thing
20:43:26 <oerjan> unlike <* vs. *> it's not really needed, however, because there is only one action so there's no alternative order to perform them in
20:44:03 <oerjan> :t (<*)
20:44:03 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f a
20:44:05 <oerjan> :t (*>)
20:44:06 <lambdabot> forall (f :: * -> *) a b. (Applicative f) => f a -> f b -> f b
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21:01:16 <nooga> uh
21:01:20 <nooga> still golfing?
21:01:50 <Taneb> Nah, we're discussing obfuscation and art now
21:04:53 <Taneb> http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7u5samb5G1rysy5go1_500.png
21:07:01 <olsner> Taneb: what's with all the |s in that code?
21:07:26 <Taneb> olsner, bad rendering
21:07:29 <Taneb> Should be (s
21:07:56 <olsner> not only the code is obfuscated!
21:08:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, ...why is that hosted on tumblr.
21:08:48 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, because I posted it on my tumblr
21:08:54 <Taneb> AND NOWHERE ELSE
21:09:04 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/CHIS
21:09:13 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 24.0
21:09:19 <quintopia> wowoweewow
21:09:31 <quintopia> what did i break
21:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, I see your TV Tropes page.
21:09:54 <Taneb> I have one of those?
21:09:57 <Taneb> Oh yeah
21:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> You think you have it bad, there's no way in hell the subtitler would get my name right.
21:11:13 <quintopia> ah right
21:11:20 <Taneb> The subversion of "This is not a drill" was a bit scary
21:11:36 <Taneb> I was on an aeroplane and the oxygen masks came down
21:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> that is quite scary
21:12:05 -!- Taneb has left ("Leaving").
21:12:10 <olsner> oh, where was that?
21:12:10 -!- Taneb has joined.
21:12:15 <Taneb> I have GOT to stop doing that
21:12:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i once woke up in the middle of the night with my heart pounding and a sharp pain in the left-middle part of my chest
21:12:26 <Phantom_Hoover> after i didn't die i concluded i'd probably pulled a muscle
21:12:45 <Taneb> olsner, somewhere over Asia, I believe
21:12:56 <Taneb> Asia or Europe
21:12:59 <Taneb> Eurasia
21:13:20 <olsner> actually I was referring to your tvtropes page
21:13:52 <Taneb> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Tropers/Taneb
21:14:34 <Phantom_Hoover> (sorry, there are some things a man should be able to keep to himself)
21:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> (I HAVE MADE A TERRIBLE ERROR IN JUDGEMENT)
21:14:51 <Taneb> (OH NO)
21:15:10 <Taneb> (IS IT ABOUT ME?)
21:15:24 <Taneb> (THE "SEX COD" NAME IS IRONIC)
21:15:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Having your presence elsewhere online dragged up is always embarassing!
21:16:28 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/BXBY
21:16:31 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 34.9
21:16:39 <quintopia> hmm
21:17:03 <Taneb> Nah, I'm me online
21:17:27 <Taneb> If you go up to me in real life with a webcam and a website saying "THIS IS TANEB IN REAL LIFE", that would be embarrassing
21:17:37 <Taneb> But online, I'm just one person
21:17:45 <Taneb> Well, three.
21:17:50 <Taneb> But really just one.
21:18:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Multiple web personality disorder.
21:18:42 <Taneb> There are a couple of places I go by "askit0"
21:18:56 <Taneb> Steam, for one
21:19:06 <Taneb> And there's a username I use when I want to be secret
21:19:10 <elliott> Is it "ngevd"
21:19:12 <Taneb> No
21:19:15 <Taneb> Well
21:19:16 <Taneb> Maybe
21:19:55 <oerjan> nathan gollum elliott van doorn
21:20:12 <Taneb> The G stands for George
21:20:25 <oerjan> ok i'll remember that for a couple of minutes
21:20:34 <Taneb> How crazy would it be if it stood for Gregor or something
21:20:42 <Taneb> Something here being glogbot
21:20:43 <oerjan> total madness
21:25:37 <Taneb> TIME TO SAY GOODBYE
21:25:38 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:27:03 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:31:15 <quintopia> !bfjoust a http://sprunge.us/CieJ
21:31:18 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_a: 65.1
21:31:22 <quintopia> much better
21:33:11 <elliott> good name
21:34:59 <quintopia> now if i could only do decoy size detection i could beat everything :P
21:53:16 <zzo38> ?messages
21:53:16 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1d 10h 42m 49s ago: There's no Peanoid or Copeanoid instance for Int8
21:53:16 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1d 9h 57m 52s ago: Neither does Word64
21:53:43 <zzo38> Taneb: Oops! Maybe I made a mistake
21:56:51 <zzo38> X-BIT seems down again; do you know when they are up again, or did they change the port number without notifying me or something like that?
21:59:17 <elliott> http://x-bit.org/ftelnet/ does not seem to work, so I would assume they are just temporarily down, since the website works?
22:01:13 <zzo38> O, so the computer is not down only the telnet service is down.
22:02:18 <elliott> ping(1) says so, yes.
22:10:25 <nooga> i wodner if one could try to breed bfjoust warriors using genetic algorithms
22:10:47 <elliott> it has been tried repeatedly
22:10:48 <elliott> to poor results
22:10:53 <nooga> oh
22:10:56 <elliott> well depending on your definition of genetic
22:11:00 <elliott> maybe fizzie's was catually genteic
22:11:02 <elliott> *actually genetic
22:11:49 <nooga> 23:15 < Taneb> (IS IT ABOUT ME?) <-- it looks like an ancient s-exp
22:15:39 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:43:08 -!- LorenzoVonSmashi has joined.
22:45:03 -!- LorenzoVonSmashi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:45:29 -!- LorenzoVon has joined.
22:45:47 <LorenzoVon> hullo.
22:45:54 <shachaf> `welcome LorenzoVon
22:46:03 <LorenzoVon> thanks!
22:46:04 <HackEgo> LorenzoVon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:46:30 <LorenzoVon> what,
22:46:34 <LorenzoVon> like...
22:46:40 <LorenzoVon> python
22:47:07 <zzo38> LorenzoVon: See wiki for information
22:47:19 <LorenzoVon> ok!
22:48:54 <soundnfury> As I said to someone else the other day... the esolang community exists to try to create a programming language more ludicrous and unusable than Haskell.
22:48:58 <soundnfury> We have yet to succeed.
22:49:06 <elliott> haskell is neither ludicrous nor unusable
22:49:15 <elliott> sort of like that joke is neither accurate nor amusing
22:49:52 <soundnfury> yeah well you /would/ say that
22:50:07 <LorenzoVon> haha!
22:50:12 <LorenzoVon> this
22:50:27 <LorenzoVon> I
22:50:35 <elliott> soundnfury: i am far from the only haskell programmer here :P
22:50:42 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, obviously, on account of it being a correct summary.
22:51:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: thank you for the implication that correctness is typical of me
22:51:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Nonono, you misunderstand.
22:51:43 <Phantom_Hoover> You would say correct things, but you would also say incorrect things.
22:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> The latter more often, obviously.
22:52:10 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i take back my gratitude and replace your brain with a brick
22:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Little do you realise that I have unbounded brick/brain interchange abilities.
22:52:50 <elliott> i wrote the one-line definition of an esolang on the wiki, clearly i have infinite domain over what can be classed as an esolang or not
22:52:55 <elliott> fear my wrathful power
22:53:00 <elliott> oh wait there's someone new
22:53:01 <elliott> hi LorenzoVon
22:53:05 <soundnfury> you only have semi-infinite domain
22:53:09 <nooga> hi LorenzoVon
22:53:13 <soundnfury> because you're a Poisson distribution
22:53:20 <soundnfury> (and I'm less than zero)
22:53:35 <Phantom_Hoover> hi LorenzoVon, don't even think about making an awful xkcd reference like soundnfury just did
22:53:38 <soundnfury> http://xkcd.com/12
22:53:40 <Phantom_Hoover> also a brainfuck derivative
22:53:47 <Phantom_Hoover> ugh you linked it why why why
22:53:55 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: to annoy you
22:53:59 <LorenzoVon> hey!
22:54:07 <soundnfury> because people who don't like xkcd references MUST be annoyed AT ALL TIMES
22:54:14 <LorenzoVon> sorry
22:54:22 <LorenzoVon> cheers,
22:54:25 <elliott> cheers,
22:54:31 <LorenzoVon> quit
22:54:36 <elliott> hi
22:54:38 <ais523> soundnfury: please, try being constructive
22:54:38 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:54:45 -!- LorenzoVon has quit (Quit: stuff).
22:54:55 <nooga> remember that chick who once wandered here because she thought that the channel is about magic & stuff?
22:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, req. soundnfury be banned for noobscaring
22:55:12 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, I don't remember any of them being female.
22:55:16 <elliott> nooga: if by "that chick" you mean "about 50 people", yes
22:55:16 <soundnfury> "noobscaring" == saying rude things about Haskell?
22:55:26 <nooga> i've seen only one huh
22:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> making xkcd references
22:55:37 <ais523> soundnfury: have you ever seen Lazy K? it has the same issues as Haskell, and more besides
22:55:37 <shachaf> soundnfury: No, it's "caring about noobs"
22:55:51 <elliott> ais523: kick ais523 for anti-haskell sentiment :)
22:55:58 <shachaf> ais523: No, kick me!
22:56:05 <elliott> clearly ICA > Haskell
22:56:06 <shachaf> HASKELL? MORE LIKE DUMBSKELL
22:56:13 <ais523> elliott: depends on what you're using it for
22:56:27 <nooga> ASSKEL
22:56:33 <nooga> L
22:56:34 <ais523> @messages
22:56:34 <lambdabot> elliott asked 1d 4h 53m 43s ago: I thought killing a monster with a pet didn't give you death drops, re: gnomes and candles?
22:56:34 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 2h 27m 43s ago: please fix the thing whereby you can't see which monsters you detected with the spell
22:56:34 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 2h 27m 39s ago: pure interface screw
22:56:34 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 2h 27m 28s ago: of course, they should be noted in some way to not be the current state of the level, say by greying them out
22:56:34 <lambdabot> elliott said 23h 38m 32s ago: also please fix wresting
22:56:46 <elliott> haha
22:56:50 <elliott> i forgot i said those
22:56:58 <shachaf> Please fix wrestling, ais523.
22:57:03 <elliott> lesson: don't let me watch a nethack game or i'll complain about it to ais523
22:57:32 <ais523> I personally find past-level-state marks more confusing than useful
22:57:36 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, an admirable goal considering how painful it is in DF.
22:57:43 <elliott> ais523: well, they should be accesible in /some/ way
22:57:43 <ais523> hate them in Crawl…
22:57:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait did I say painful I mean awesome.
22:57:50 <elliott> ais523: rather than making you memorise where the monsters were
22:57:51 <ais523> and this lead to a flamewar that pretty much killed TAEB development
22:57:54 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, please implement DF's wrestling system.
22:57:58 <elliott> ais523: say, by pressing a key to bring up the screen you saw when last detecting monsters
22:58:05 <ais523> yep, that's more reasonable
22:58:07 <ais523> but it's a lot of work
22:58:20 <nooga> what was TAEB again?
22:58:24 <ais523> NetHack bot
22:58:27 <elliott> tactical amulet extraction bot
22:58:48 <elliott> ais523: (do you have any wresting plans; please don't say no; "removal" is perfectly acceptable)
22:59:09 <ais523> elliott: hmm, maybe I'll copy it from Slash'EM
22:59:12 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, hmm, what specific thing is confusing about the system?
22:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it just that they're displayed the same way as monsters usually are?
22:59:42 <elliott> ais523: what does slash'em do
22:59:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: even greyed-out, it frequently confuses newbies to Crawl, and I personally dislike it because there's no easy way to tell the age of the information
22:59:53 <ais523> elliott: it doesn't, I just wanted an amusing response
22:59:57 <ais523> one of the few things it doesn't have :)
23:00:03 -!- LorenzoVonSmashi has joined.
23:00:08 <elliott> ais523: I was very worried
23:00:21 <elliott> I don't really see that wresting adds any value, really
23:00:23 <elliott> welcome back LorenzoVonSmashi
23:00:32 <LorenzoVonSmashi> back!
23:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ignore soundnfury, he is bad, we are nice people
23:01:09 <LorenzoVonSmashi> except
23:01:31 <elliott> we're nice? :(
23:01:55 <LorenzoVonSmashi> so
23:03:24 <soundnfury> I'm nice too :'(
23:04:33 <Phantom_Hoover> nice people don't quote xkcd inappropriately
23:05:03 <LorenzoVonSmashi> oh,
23:05:14 <LorenzoVonSmashi> can't
23:05:39 * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds
23:06:26 * oerjan thinks LorenzoVonSmashi is mixing up the space and return keys
23:08:35 <LorenzoVonSmashi> It's
23:08:59 <LorenzoVonSmashi> nick
23:09:24 -!- LorenzoVonSmashi has changed nick to VonSmashington.
23:10:14 <ais523> `addquote * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds
23:10:18 <HackEgo> 854) * oerjan makes a brainfuck derivative for quoting xkcds
23:12:35 <VonSmashington> the
23:12:49 <elliott> hi
23:13:26 <Phantom_Hoover> VonSmashington, OK now, remember: press the long key between words, not the tall one.
23:14:53 <VonSmashington> wait,i,might,have,misprogrammed,my,client.Is,it,unfailingly,doing,that,or,is,it,only,sometimes?also,could,someone,double,check,his,statement,for,me?
23:15:08 <VonSmashington> (hence,the,comma,delimiter)
23:15:37 <oerjan> VonSmashington: you made your own client? i suspect you forgot to put a : before the message part of the PRIVMSG
23:15:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah it's consistently doing that.
23:15:42 <elliott> VonSmashington: yes, that works
23:15:48 <elliott> so far all of your message have been exactly one word long :)
23:15:58 <elliott> before the comma ones
23:16:28 <shachaf> `quoerjan
23:16:29 <VonSmashington> how about now, is this better?
23:16:31 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoerjan: not found
23:16:40 <shachaf> `run echo "quote oerjan" > bin/quoerjan; chmod +x bin/quoerjan
23:16:40 <ais523> VonSmashington: yes!
23:16:41 <oerjan> much better
23:16:43 <HackEgo> No output.
23:16:44 <shachaf> `quoerjan
23:16:48 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 18) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 21) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 22) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate
23:16:55 <shachaf> How do you get a random quote?
23:17:21 <oerjan> with a regexp? i don't think that's supported.
23:17:31 <olsner> `quote
23:17:35 <HackEgo> 90) <Warrigal> I seem to think of coaxial cables as being omnipotent somehow.
23:17:36 <olsner> that's a random quote
23:17:43 <shachaf> A random quoerjan.
23:17:49 <shachaf> quørjan
23:18:02 <oerjan> `run quorjan | shuf -n 1
23:18:03 <VonSmashington> woo!
23:18:05 <HackEgo> bash: quorjan: command not found
23:18:10 <VonSmashington> ok, then i'll repost my previous message
23:18:12 <oerjan> `run quoerjan | shuf -n 1
23:18:15 <HackEgo> 22) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe, ehird has taste"
23:18:19 <olsner> shachaf: a quoerjandom?
23:18:37 <VonSmashington> the client i've programmed doesn't show formatting, only raw unicode tcp data sent by the server. this usually is understandible, but since this is a programming channel, I'm slightly worried as to whether the server's formatting/whois data will trick me into ignoring programming jargon.
23:18:43 <shachaf> `run echo "quoerjan | shuf -n 1" > bin/quoerjandom; chmod +x bin/quoerjandom
23:18:46 <HackEgo> No output.
23:18:47 <shachaf> `quoerjandom
23:18:51 <HackEgo> 7) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that.
23:18:55 * oerjan is surprised he remembered that syntax right
23:19:08 <shachaf> `quoerjandom
23:19:09 <shachaf> `quoerjandom
23:19:09 <shachaf> `quoerjandom
23:19:09 <ais523> that is a surprisingly specific command
23:19:15 <ais523> `prevlog avocado
23:19:16 <HackEgo> 408) <Sgeo> Will anyone be irritated if I tend to disconnect and reconnect a lot? [...] <oerjan> we _almost_ have an established policy that bots will be banned it they do that. which means we might have to administer a turing test to sgeo, and that could get ugly.
23:19:23 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: prevlog: not found
23:19:26 <ais523> err, it's not that, is it?
23:19:27 <HackEgo> 201) <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better?
23:19:27 <HackEgo> 771) <Sgeo_> Why does CL get called functional? <oerjan> it's sort of like how you call ancient greece democratic.
23:19:30 <ais523> `pastlog avocado
23:19:40 <elliott> can we just delete the qdb
23:19:42 <elliott> it's all bad
23:19:56 <elliott> VonSmashington: zzo38's client does that too!
23:19:57 <ais523> elliott: you have to delete it 1 in 5 quotes at a time
23:19:57 <shachaf> elliott: But quote #... You know, that one!
23:20:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:20:03 <HackEgo> No output.
23:20:03 <ais523> `quote
23:20:04 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, more like you're bad
23:20:05 <shachaf> `run echo $((RANDOM % 500))
23:20:05 <ais523> `quote
23:20:07 <ais523> `quote
23:20:07 <elliott> VonSmashington: his syntax-highlights the irc protocol though
23:20:08 <ais523> `quote
23:20:10 <ais523> `quote
23:20:13 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:20:16 <HackEgo> 528) <fizzie> They're (according to current plans/rumours) going to release a grand total of approximately 1.1 MeeGo devices; the N9, plus the N950 "developers only" phone, which I'm counting as 0.1 because (even though it is a MeeGo device) it's not going to actually be released.
23:20:18 <olsner> no, we can't delete all the quotes, we can only ask for 5 quotes and delete the worst ones
23:20:23 <HackEgo> 221) [CTCP] Received CTCP-ERRMSG reply from clog: unknown CTCP: ERRMSG.
23:20:24 <ais523> olsner: I already said that
23:20:28 <VonSmashington> I might have it do that
23:20:32 <ais523> OK, 221 is great
23:20:35 <olsner> ais523: ok
23:20:39 <HackEgo> 138
23:20:39 <ais523> 528 is meh
23:20:40 <HackEgo> 567) <fungot> CakeProphet: mr president, in the best egyptian judicial traditions has now been put off to friday. but i want my money back'. we know it generally deals with major infrastructure projects which could form part of the emergency package for korea, on christmas eve, in the interests of consumers and the environment of gmos.
23:20:41 <HackEgo> 622) <elliott> fizzie: It's like a JIT, if JITs were... strings.
23:20:42 <HackEgo> 160) <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
23:20:45 <olsner> ais523: it counts more when I say it
23:20:54 <ais523> 567 isn't so good for fungot
23:20:55 <fungot> ais523: i have expressed them when they may have a reform effected with one stroke of the pen. not so here. here, then, and to employ means, rather few, fnord, smugglers, and their interest, to raise the right honourable baronet's propositions respecting the produce of his labour." therefore do pilgrims in their beautiful example teach liberty, teach republican institutions, as at some other great conjunctures in our history, a
23:21:02 <ais523> 160 is not interesting
23:21:04 <tswett> elliott: so, it's like a string?
23:21:10 <elliott> i like how the botspam inevitably starts when someone new comes in
23:21:12 <ais523> 622 isn't too good either
23:21:21 <elliott> 622 is about tcl
23:21:30 <ais523> you know what, I'm going to be edgy and subversive and delete one without asking elliott's approval
23:21:33 <ais523> `delquote 160
23:21:33 <shachaf> elliott: Did you hear that adding nullary typeclass support to GHC consists of removing one line?
23:21:36 <HackEgo> ​*poof* <fizzie> (I've just been playing with myself.)
23:21:39 <elliott> ais523: whoa there!!!!
23:21:40 <olsner> elliott: everyone is so eager to show off the wonders of this channel
23:21:42 <elliott> get in line, mister!!!
23:22:55 -!- shinmei has joined.
23:23:17 <VonSmashington> the pingponging is fantastic
23:23:23 <VonSmashington> i get to see it happen.
23:23:37 -!- shinmei has left.
23:24:41 <oerjan> shachaf: wait, how do you use a nullary typeclass?
23:25:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:25:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:25:51 <shachaf> foo :: RiemannHypothesis => ... -> ...
23:25:59 <elliott> VonSmashington: I think freenode actually doesn't require pongs, amusingly
23:25:59 <shachaf> unsafePerformIO :: Unsafe => IO a -> a
23:26:16 <VonSmashington> interesting!
23:26:18 <VonSmashington> how does one timeout?
23:27:21 <oerjan> shachaf: huh
23:27:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
23:31:03 <soundnfury> what're you using, VonSmashington, telnet?
23:31:12 <VonSmashington> no
23:31:19 <VonSmashington> I'm using a homeade client
23:31:38 <VonSmashington> just straight tcp on port 6667
23:32:15 <soundnfury> any reason your client doesn't support CTCP VERSION?
23:32:38 <VonSmashington> i have nothing programmed into it
23:32:52 <elliott> VonSmashington: you just timeout with TCP, I think
23:32:54 <VonSmashington> it literally sends only what i type, basically
23:33:35 <VonSmashington> oh, ok, i see.
23:33:37 <shachaf> I think TCP is a proto cool guy. Eh times out connections and doesn't afraid of anything.
23:33:54 <VonSmashington> . . . that's the bot?
23:34:02 <olsner> hahachaf
23:34:36 <soundnfury>
23:35:59 <VonSmashington> olympics are starting1
23:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> VonSmashington, they started hours ago man.
23:36:27 <soundnfury> they started /days/ ago
23:36:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Berners-Lee featured, apparently.
23:36:44 <Phantom_Hoover> They started /years/ ago.
23:36:57 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: lol. I meant that the football started on Thursday
23:37:13 <soundnfury> also, they started /in ancient Greece/. Ago.
23:37:26 <olsner> they started /centuries/ ago
23:37:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Football, xkcd... three strikes and you're out.
23:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Channel policy.
23:37:35 <VonSmashington> haha, they started like... centuries ago
23:38:07 <olsner> but now I think we've said enough about sports for 4 years
23:38:26 <soundnfury> what's the third strike, mentioning comp.lang.c?
23:38:35 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
23:38:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't tell you because giving a list would constitute striking.
23:39:45 <soundnfury> "Anything not on your list." -- Russell
23:39:53 <VonSmashington> wait, so if i say football football football
23:40:11 <VonSmashington> oh, darn, i thought it was automatic
23:40:27 <VonSmashington> that would be excelent.
23:40:50 <soundnfury> not excellent, then?
23:41:03 <Phantom_Hoover> VonSmashington, that's just the same strike 3 times.
23:41:12 <Phantom_Hoover> what are you, some kind of idiot???
23:41:50 <VonSmashington> i am no such thing! fisty cuffs, sir! *rolls up his sleeves*
23:41:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway so long as you don't start spouting right-wing crap or pseudoscience you're safe enough.
23:42:12 <VonSmashington> oh wait, fisticuffs? spelling isn't my forte'
23:42:55 <kallisti> 20 oz red bull
23:42:57 <kallisti> check
23:43:04 <kallisti> 1.75 litres of 100 proof smirnoff triple distilled.
23:43:07 <kallisti> check
23:43:10 <soundnfury> oh, I'm a radical anarcho-libertarian. Is that a strike?
23:43:33 <Phantom_Hoover> depends, how radical
23:43:37 <soundnfury> would mentioning "trade union" be a strike, or just a bad pun?
23:43:37 <Phantom_Hoover> do you do backflips
23:43:38 <kallisti> soundnfury: you went up to bat in your underwear. you were disqualified.
23:43:54 <VonSmashington> HOMEOPATHY
23:44:04 <olsner> soundnfury: you can be whatever you want as long as you don't tell us
23:44:22 <olsner> of course, you can also be many things even if you do tell us
23:44:24 <soundnfury> Phantom_Hoover: no, I don't, because that would be silly
23:44:27 <kallisti> otherwise we'll bring out the #esoteric hate machine
23:44:43 <VonSmashington> is that a thing?
23:44:48 <olsner> it is hate-complete
23:44:53 <Phantom_Hoover> soundnfury, strike strike strike
23:45:11 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:45:53 <VonSmashington> oh, there you go, it does have a ping timeout
23:46:07 <kallisti> well, it's hate-equivalent.
23:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, req. soundnfury be kicked for noobscaring, liking football and xkcd, boring politics
23:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I wonder, can the hating problem be solved?
23:47:35 <kallisti> oh god being of legal drinking age is awesome.
23:47:44 <kallisti> I wonder when it will cease being awesome.
23:47:50 <kallisti> probably tomorrow.
23:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> hahaha legal drinking age here is 18
23:47:55 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: yeah yeah
23:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> also we can consistently have sex at 16.
23:48:10 <kallisti> vietnam war, man.
23:48:11 <kallisti> or something
23:48:15 <kallisti> actually no
23:48:17 <VonSmashington> being of age doesn't matter to me... I distill! woo!
23:48:35 <kallisti> I don't actually remember why our age is 21 here.
23:48:45 <kallisti> but I do know that it got that way for a stupid reason
23:48:52 <kallisti> and then political pressures keep it that way.
23:48:57 <VonSmashington> it is kind of nice, however.
23:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I was under the impression that it was hyperbolic drunk driving rhetoric.
23:49:08 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: no I think it was in place before that
23:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> VonSmashington, don't you need a licence to do that.
23:49:16 <VonSmashington> 23 is when you can start drinking biologically with minimal damage
23:49:24 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: for example a common complaint during the vietnam war era was that you could be drafting at 18. but couldn't drink until 21.
23:49:34 <kallisti> *drafted
23:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh.
23:50:02 <kallisti> but yeah the mothers against drunk driving is probably one of the political pressures that keeps it in place today.
23:50:08 <VonSmashington> oh, bummer, have i disconnected?
23:50:09 <kallisti> or whatever they call themselves now.
23:50:15 <kallisti> VonSmashington: no
23:50:28 <VonSmashington> no, wait, the max size of my reading pane has been exceeded.
23:50:31 <VonSmashington> brb.
23:50:33 <kallisti> ..
23:50:36 -!- VonSmashington has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:50:40 <kallisti> lol?
23:51:02 <kallisti> also I'd like to point out that mosh + dedicated server = best IRC experience
23:51:06 -!- VonSmashington has joined.
23:51:08 <kallisti> I never have to reconnect to anything ever.
23:51:28 <VonSmashington> hooplah!
23:53:37 <kallisti> VonSmashington: does your client not continue scrolling down when it runs out of buffer?
2012-07-28
00:00:17 <VonSmashington> it does
00:00:26 <VonSmashington> but eventually the variable runs out of space
00:00:56 <kallisti> wot
00:01:11 <VonSmashington> and i programmed it in a high level automation language, so I can't change anything like variable size.
00:01:21 <kallisti> oh
00:01:23 <kallisti> okay.
00:01:37 <VonSmashington> but i could have it just trim the string
00:02:44 <kallisti> so you wrote your IRC client?
00:02:48 <kallisti> in some weird language
00:06:10 <ais523> ooh, awesome whatever-the-speech-version-of-a-typo-is on the news: "micro-social blogging site Twitter"
00:06:39 <olsner> a speako?
00:06:44 <soundnfury> ais523: "slip of the tongue"?
00:06:51 <soundnfury> (aka "lapsus lingui")
00:06:56 <olsner> a something-o
00:07:26 * soundnfury is much more sensible than Von.
00:07:30 * soundnfury wrote /his/ client in C
00:07:50 <kallisti> I am the sensibilest of all
00:07:52 <kallisti> I just use irssi
00:07:56 <soundnfury> pfft
00:08:05 <kallisti> like a normal computer geek.
00:08:24 <soundnfury> I suppose next you'll be saying you didn't write your own HTTP server either!
00:08:41 <kallisti> nope. I use nginx. which wasn't even intended to be an HTTP server originally
00:11:16 <kallisti> also my ISP is horse shit
00:11:22 <kallisti> anytime there;s a thunderstorm I lose my connection.
00:11:33 <olsner> IP over horse shit? that one's new I think
00:13:10 <kmc> we went to a bar which has beer taps at each table
00:13:16 <kmc> and each tap has a meter, to bill you
00:13:16 -!- david_werecat has joined.
00:13:23 <kmc> but they also report quantity to TVs around the bar, so you can see who drank the most beer
00:13:33 <kmc> and on wednesdays you get 20% off if you drink the most beer in the bar
00:13:34 <olsner> sounds like fun!
00:13:40 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:13:41 <kallisti> yes and it DOESN'T WORK AT ALL OH GOD.
00:13:41 <kallisti> soem academic toy thing.
00:13:41 <kallisti> also if I respond to something like several minutes after it was said it's because I lost my connection.
00:14:19 -!- VonSmashington has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:17:29 <kallisti> I think the quality of my code from this point on is going to regrade severely.
00:18:05 <kallisti> due to inevitably encroaching alchoholism.
00:18:29 <kallisti> s/r(\w+)/d\1/
00:20:54 <olsner> regrading goes both ways
00:22:08 <kallisti> well I think right now I'm somewhere near the Ballmer Peak.
00:22:34 <olsner> teetering on the brink of total failure then?
00:22:40 <kallisti> yep
00:22:57 <olsner> just jump right in! :>
00:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I should strike you for that but it's not forced, soundnfury take note.
00:23:25 <kallisti> what is this #esoteric baseball system
00:23:27 <olsner> the Phantom_Striker strikes again!
00:23:28 <kallisti> I'm unfamiliar with it.
00:23:38 <kallisti> I have to deal with baseball-inspired legal systems in real life.
00:23:42 <kallisti> I'd rather not deal with them in IRC too.
00:23:58 <olsner> I think if you get a ball thrown near but not at you, you strike if you fail to strike it
00:24:09 <kallisti> there's a box
00:24:15 <kallisti> basically around your upper body.
00:24:24 <kallisti> that counts as the strike zone.
00:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Also if it starts raining you need a team of statisticians pronto.
00:24:59 * kallisti is American therefore expert baseball expert.
00:25:31 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott is English, he must know how england baseball works
00:25:49 <olsner> england baseball? england only does tea and bad plumbing
00:25:52 <kallisti> I didn't even know that was a thing.
00:26:27 <kallisti> I bet they suck at baseball.
00:26:45 <Phantom_Hoover> The funny part is that they totally do suck at cricket.
00:26:58 <kallisti> do they throw baseballs at speeds that could potentially kill small children and animals?
00:27:00 <Phantom_Hoover> And everything else, although they suck less at football than Scotland AFAIK.
00:27:25 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, faster, I believe.
00:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> And they use harder balls.
00:28:02 <olsner> I think they just roll the balls on the ground (and they even call it bowling)
00:28:06 <kallisti> nonsense.
00:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that's Scotland bowling.
00:28:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's entirely different.
00:28:24 <kallisti> I refuse to believe that another country has a superior baseball league.
00:28:39 * kallisti nationalism.
00:28:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey now, Japan gives a shit about baseball too.
00:29:01 <kallisti> yes I know
00:29:05 <kallisti> but their league is not as good.
00:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> You might have some serious international sporting competition one of these days.
00:29:29 <kallisti> I only know these things because some of my friends are baseball fans.
00:29:33 <kallisti> but otherwise I don't give a shit.
00:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Suuuure.
00:30:00 <olsner> ... says the most expert baseball expert in the channel
00:30:20 <kallisti> yep. that's still true.
00:30:28 <kallisti> you'll just have to deal with it.
00:31:27 <kallisti> this interpreter for dogless is incredibly simple.
00:31:34 <kallisti> but I don't know if I want to keep that name.
00:32:01 <kallisti> what's a good name for a language that's based very roughly off of dupdog but kind of more like ///
00:32:40 <olsner> dogslash
00:32:51 <kallisti> nah.
00:32:53 <olsner> dup///dog
00:33:05 <kallisti> the original name was "godless"
00:33:15 <kallisti> I don't know why.
00:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> updog, to reference channel history.
00:33:54 <kallisti> I'm unaware of the reference.
00:33:59 <olsner> me too
00:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I dunno if you remember when elliott made that bot to tell Sgeo_ to shut up about things like ActiveWorlds, Scala and sex?
00:34:49 <kallisti> oh, yes.
00:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And then oerjan banned it for being totally not cool man.
00:35:03 <kallisti> but I don't remember anything named updog.
00:35:10 <kallisti> because memory.
00:35:13 <kallisti> :_(
00:35:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And then elliott brought in another totally unrelated bot named updog which did nothing but say "what's updog" whenever its name was mentioned.
00:35:42 <kallisti> ..oh.
00:35:46 <kallisti> yeah I don't remember that.
00:35:48 <shachaf> what's updog
00:36:04 <olsner> ... and that bot became shachaf
00:36:21 <shachaf> what's shachaf
00:36:44 <olsner> it's a bot
00:37:17 <shachaf> what's bot
00:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, does bot have soul?
00:40:15 <shachaf> what's owl
00:40:48 <Phantom_Hoover> owl is bird
00:41:25 <olsner> owl is fowl
00:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> owl is dowel
00:43:27 <kallisti> vowel
00:43:28 <kallisti> growl
00:43:29 <kallisti> cowl
00:43:31 <kallisti> foul
00:43:34 <kallisti> bowel
00:43:42 <kallisti> towel
00:43:54 <Phantom_Hoover> (kallisti is a bot that rhymes.)
00:43:59 <shachaf> kall me isti
00:44:08 <Phantom_Hoover> (Phantom_Hoover is a bot which describes other bots.)
00:44:24 <kallisti> we are all bots on inside. :_(
00:44:34 <Phantom_Hoover> also sometimes the outside
00:44:53 <kallisti> yowel?
00:44:56 <kallisti> pretty sure that's a word
00:44:59 <kallisti> maybe yowl
00:45:58 <kallisti> I like how perl doesn't have a "print to stdout with newline" operator until version 5.10.
00:46:24 <kallisti> and you need to explicitly declare what version you're using to get it.
00:46:27 <kallisti> because backwards compatability.
00:49:07 <kallisti> so I'm pretty sure dogless is turing complete now
00:49:18 <kallisti> because I added some metacommands that affect the scope of the next command
01:07:54 <Phantom_Hoover> hey Sgeo_
01:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell Sgeo Hey you know about Creatures right? How the hell is http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Albia#Geography_and_Travel meant to work?
01:09:33 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:24:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:25:18 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:39:53 <kallisti> perl is the weirdest thing ever.
01:40:45 <kallisti> its import statement is resolved at compile-time but you can use it literally anywhere.
01:42:58 <olsner> in python import statements have side-effects instead
01:43:06 <kallisti> right.
01:43:08 <olsner> import launch_missiles
01:44:01 <kallisti> the way it works in perl is that "use whatever LIST" is equivalent to; BEGIN {require whatever; whatever->import(LIST)}
01:44:22 <kallisti> BEGIN being a block that's executed before compilation of the rest of the code.
01:44:36 <kallisti> I think in FIFO order. I don't remember. it rarely matters.
01:45:04 <olsner> oh, right, like in awk
01:45:27 <zzo38> Do you have any single file C program emulating 6502 CPU which is public domain?
01:45:35 <kallisti> no
01:47:05 <kallisti> olsner: the import method is then used to explicitly export things. if you make your package a subclass of Exporter then you can define how symbols are exported.
01:47:18 <kallisti> or you could write your own import method and do it by hand.
01:48:53 <kallisti> the latter case is used to make "pragma" modules. aka modules that act as compile-time pragmas similar to "use strict".
01:51:34 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, the creatures live on the edge of a disc
01:52:01 <Phantom_Hoover> And the stuff about centrifugal force?
01:52:44 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, good question, no idea
01:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Also is the edge of the world just a mind-bogglingly steep cliff?
01:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> s/steep/tall/, I suppose.
01:54:10 <Sgeo_> Yes, although the edges are only in the forwards/backwards direction
01:54:40 <Sgeo_> There's a reason for all of this: Gameplay occurs in a 2d world that wraps around left/right
01:55:13 <Phantom_Hoover> In an extremely narrow strip?
01:56:52 <Sgeo_> Looking for a screenshot
01:57:44 <Sgeo_> http://i1-linux.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Creatures-Internet-Edition_1.jpg note that this screeenshot does NOT depict Albia and this world does NOT wrap around, but gameplay in the games that show Albia is similar
01:58:21 <Sgeo_> Although that shows one cramped area of the C3 world I guess
01:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> How illustrative of the large-scale structure.
01:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> (Why didn't they put the world in the middle dammit, that makes much more sense.
01:58:55 <Phantom_Hoover> )
01:59:20 <Sgeo_> How do you explain that creatures don't leave the screen?
01:59:50 <zzo38> Actually they don't need public domain as long as it is Free software and not affecting the license of the rest of the project.
01:59:57 <Sgeo_> Imagine the world is a on the edge of a coin
02:00:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean using a Halo-type arrangement.
02:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Coin works I guess, it just seems not-quite-sane.
02:01:45 <Sgeo_> Not sure what a Halo-type arrangement is
02:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> You know the Halo series? And the Halos in them?
02:02:10 <Sgeo_> And it's more sane then hypertaco (although the universe where that's used is not entirely intended to be sane)
02:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Hypertaco?
02:02:51 <zzo38> I found something tat might help
02:04:30 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, in Triangle and Robert
02:04:55 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, I fixed the extrernal links on that page
02:05:28 <Phantom_Hoover> "World Shapes: Triangle and Robert's world is not a sphere, but a four-dimensional hypertaco.
02:05:29 <Phantom_Hoover> " -- TV Tropes
02:05:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't that going to be identical to a normal sphere for those living inside it?
02:06:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Flatlanders living on a taco would see it as a circle, after all.
02:06:08 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, no idea
02:06:27 <Sgeo_> I didn't even try to understand it, to be honest
02:08:26 * Sgeo_ bluhs at D's non-hygienic string mixins
02:24:38 <kallisti> Sgeo_: what does non-hygienic mean in this context
02:25:35 <Sgeo_> It means local variables used in the string mixin can get confused with names you pass into it
02:25:44 <Sgeo_> (etc)
02:25:49 <Sgeo_> What else could it mean?
02:25:58 <kallisti> I don't know.
02:26:41 <kallisti> string mixins usually don't have the property of being hygienic or not.
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02:27:23 <kallisti> whereas a macro or a string mixin that implements variable interpolation does.
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02:59:47 <Madoka-Kaname> ...
02:59:48 <Madoka-Kaname> How would you make a hygienic string mixin?
03:03:20 <Sgeo_> Madoka-Kaname, you could possibly make something that looks but isn't like a hygienic string mixin?
03:10:05 <kallisti> $ echo 'Hello, World!' | scripts/Dogless.pl
03:10:08 <kallisti> Hello, World!
03:10:10 <kallisti> well that was easy.
03:10:19 <soundnfury> almost, but not quite, entirely unlike a mixin
03:10:41 <kallisti> the hello world program also has the nice perk of being a quine.
03:11:29 <kallisti> it also doubles as cat, I guess. since the only real input is the program source.
03:12:25 <kallisti> maybe I should add a notion of input.
03:16:30 <kallisti> Sgeo_: maybe I don't know what "string mixin" means in this context.
03:16:43 <kallisti> to me a mixin is a class that you "drop into" another class.
03:17:16 <Sgeo_> kallisti, in D, a string mixin is a function that makes a string at compiletime and then that becomes code
03:17:18 <Sgeo_> I think
03:17:23 <kallisti> oh
03:17:51 <Sgeo_> http://dlang.org/mixin.html
03:18:06 <kallisti> right
03:20:00 <kallisti> just never use local variables, or give them terrible names.
03:20:02 <kallisti> problem solved.
03:20:04 <kallisti> >_>
03:22:52 <Sgeo_> "Repeated imports of the same file are of no import."
03:23:34 <kallisti> heyo!
03:24:18 <kallisti> does D automatically return the last statement of a function?
03:24:29 <kallisti> or do you just assign to a constant char[] with the same name as the template
03:24:35 <Sgeo_> No idea
03:24:37 <kallisti> template GenStruct(char[] Name, char[] M1)
03:24:37 <kallisti> { const char[] GenStruct = "struct " ~ Name ~ "{ int " ~ M1 ~ "; }";
03:24:38 <kallisti> }
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03:26:59 <shachaf> Does the documentation mention the part where std.file.read() is broken?
03:27:37 <Sgeo_> o.O?
03:36:38 <Sgeo_> shachaf, how is it broken?
03:37:50 <shachaf> Sgeo_: The buffering code is buggy.
03:37:55 <shachaf> Try reading a file from /proc/
03:38:07 <shachaf> (Bigger than 4096 bytes.)
03:38:28 <kallisti> how do I do italics in wiki markup again
03:38:51 <shachaf> '''''''''''word'''''''''''
03:39:15 <kallisti> ah right
03:39:49 <elliott> I think Walter Bright could probably make a good language but D isn't it.
03:40:12 <kallisti> like many improvements to the C language, it shows a lot of promise but isn't quite there..
03:40:20 <elliott> Rust is probably better than D.
03:40:34 <kallisti> Rust is still being changed quite a lot.
03:40:39 <kallisti> but what it's got so far is pretty solid.
03:44:34 <Sgeo_> What's wrong with D?
03:45:06 <elliott> everything
03:45:17 <elliott> it is a mess and half-broken
03:45:23 <elliott> and that's just the language
03:45:29 <elliott> the toolchains are ten messes unto themselves
03:50:56 <kallisti> why can I never remember how to do backslash escapes in regex...
03:51:14 <kallisti> I meanm parsing them
03:51:27 <kallisti> "match this, unless it's preceded by an odd number of backslashes"
03:54:07 <Sgeo_> elliott, what do you think about Dylan?
03:54:26 <kallisti> he's a good musician, but makes for a lousy programming language.
03:54:28 * kallisti elliott.
03:56:49 <elliott> i don't like bob dylan
03:56:51 <elliott> so probably i like the language more
03:56:55 <elliott> i don't know all that much about it
03:56:57 <elliott> it seems ok
03:57:05 <elliott> it is not like anyone uses it or it is really viable in any way though
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03:58:48 <Sgeo_> elliott, apparently it's going through a revival. At too slow a place to really count as a revival
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04:02:00 <Sgeo_> Would be nice if I could even get it working without needing to use a VM
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04:12:13 <Sgeo_> You know what we need? FreeDylan
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04:19:15 <Sgeo_> I'm looking at 3d printing stuff for some reason, and thought of a good use: iceblocks pieces
04:19:51 <Sgeo_> ...or that's not what they're called
04:19:53 <Sgeo_> What are they called
04:20:00 <Sgeo_> Martian Chess is a whatever game
04:20:19 <Sgeo_> Icehouse, there we go
04:20:41 <elliott> hi
04:22:58 <Sgeo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icehouse_pieces
04:23:40 <Sgeo_> o.O http://www.crystalcaste.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CC&Category_Code=PY
04:23:43 <zzo38> There are many possible games using these icehouse pieces
04:23:58 <zzo38> Including some game that uses tarot cards to make a board that the pieces are placed on
04:25:45 <Sgeo_> Some games require multicolored icehouse pieces
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04:46:17 <zzo38> Yes, that too
04:46:55 <zzo38> The game I mentioned require different color for each player, as well as all the sizes, and can be stand up or pointing to another card
05:06:22 <elliott> I can sympathize with the way you felt. I'm a staunch young-earth creationist and it bothered me a bit that I might use an email client like "Evolution." So for the first two years or so that I used Linux, I used Thunderbird. Recently, I noticed that the email search is a lot faster on Evolution (I have >14,000 emails to search). So I made the switch to Evolution.
05:06:22 <elliott> I do wish there was a way to name the application differently (in the title bar). But like the previous poster said, we got other things to worry about (~5 billion souls on their way to hell).
05:06:36 <elliott> thanks for the positive attitude, tak
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05:17:27 <kallisti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Dogless
05:17:31 <kallisti> look at the damage I have done.
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05:32:17 <kallisti> Please let me know if anything is worded confusingly
05:34:27 <zzo38> I think it is OK
05:42:15 <Sgeo_> I once felt uncomfortable with NetHack's #pray because I felt like it was too close to worshipping other gods.
05:42:32 <kallisti> ..
05:43:23 <kallisti> or in dogless: ..|~
05:43:32 <kallisti> which will eventually converge to an infinite string of dots.
05:43:37 <kallisti> or... diverge? I don't even know.
05:43:46 <elliott> Sgeo_: hi
05:43:57 <Sgeo_> This was when I was younger
05:44:00 <Sgeo_> And still believed in God
05:44:20 <Sgeo_> Funny, becoming an RL atheist made me more comfortable with violating atheist conduct in NetHack
05:44:20 <kallisti> elliott: plz berate dogless. inlude that it needlessly overcomplicates dupdogs minimal (read: stupid) design.
05:46:12 <kallisti> I've never had an issue making distinctions between in character and out of character.
05:46:48 <Sgeo_> I knew the distinction, it still made me uncomfortable
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06:45:10 <elliott> kallisti: dogless looks dumb
06:45:11 <elliott> hth
06:45:54 <kallisti> yes
06:46:28 <kallisti> I'm not attempting to revolutionize computing with my esolangs, here..
06:47:10 <elliott> you asked for beration
06:47:14 <kallisti> yes
06:47:37 <kallisti> I request a strawman, now please let me defend myself against it.
06:47:42 <kallisti> *requested
06:48:09 <elliott> NO
06:48:10 <elliott> *no
06:48:10 <kallisti> strawmen are vicious predators after all.
06:48:12 <elliott> fucking
06:48:13 <elliott> caps lock
06:48:55 <kallisti> also I'm not entirely sure what the instruction >~ or >>~ or <~ or ><~ etc is supposed to do
06:49:08 <kallisti> so the semantics of that might change.
06:50:12 <kallisti> abc|>~def|ghi -> abc|def|~ghi
06:50:54 <kallisti> er
06:51:29 <kallisti> abc|>~def|ghi -> abc|def|ghi|def|~ghi
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07:25:20 <zzo38> Can you play snooker?
07:27:59 <elliott> Can you?
07:28:29 <zzo38> No
07:28:40 <zzo38> Is there a rule in snooker that says you must try hard to hit the ball?
07:29:01 <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
07:30:09 <kallisti> wtf kind of rule is that.
07:30:31 <elliott> `addquote <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
07:30:42 <HackEgo> 854) <zzo38> There is no rule in poker that says you have to try hard to win.
07:30:45 <kallisti> how is that even remotely enforceable
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07:37:51 <zzo38> kallisti: I don't know.
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08:07:19 <Madoka-Kaname> http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-randombattle45434
08:07:21 <Madoka-Kaname> The RNG hates me.
08:07:43 <Madoka-Kaname> This the first time I've wanted to curse the RNG algorithm outside of Nethack.
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11:21:03 <Sgeo_> elliott, Phantom_Hoover monqy tswett UPDATE
11:21:54 <nortti> what?
11:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> this does not concern you mortal
11:22:20 <Phantom_Hoover> omg
11:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> sburban jungle
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11:24:20 <elliott> nortti: Sgeo_ lets us know when monqy gets marginally less terrible
11:25:26 <nortti> ok
11:26:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ok this is definitely best entrance flash
11:31:06 * itidus21 parses everything that got posted since phantom joined
11:31:25 <itidus21> aha. suburban jungle. thats what i was missing
11:33:45 <itidus21> "Rest in Peace, Suburban Jungle - The Bad Webcomics Wiki"
11:34:10 <Sgeo_> That's not even the name
11:34:17 <Sgeo_> It's Sburban, not Suburban
11:34:22 <itidus21> oh...
11:34:23 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
11:34:27 <itidus21> this explains a lot
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11:36:11 <itidus21> it appears to be music
11:36:58 <itidus21> whoa
11:42:54 <itidus21> perhaps whoever made that is a macguyver of art, perhaps
11:48:22 <Phantom_Hoover> made what
11:48:50 <itidus21> the intro
12:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> intro to what, sburb?
12:11:41 <itidus21> yeah
12:31:29 <Sgeo_> itidus21, just go to http://www.mspaintadventures.com and start reading
12:31:46 <itidus21> yeah this stuff might infact be too weird for me
12:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah it's some crazy shit man
12:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> just don't do homestuckl
12:36:50 <itidus21> i think part of whats creepy about it is the uncanny way it's based on real life types of events
12:38:47 <itidus21> no need for me to expound, i'm clearly preaching to the choir
12:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> are
12:39:45 <Phantom_Hoover> are you talking about homestuck
12:41:17 <Sgeo_> Maybe itidus21 is talking about the fact that meteors are a threat IRL?
12:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe.
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12:48:20 <Taneb> Hello
12:48:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, hey someone you can update!
12:49:03 <Taneb> Already seen it
12:49:12 <nooga> okay
12:49:22 <nooga> what the fuck I've just read? -> http://notch.tumblr.com/post/20056289891/start-classified-transmission
12:49:44 <Taneb> From the URL looks 0x10c-y
12:50:16 <Taneb> Yeah, that's 0x10c
12:50:58 <olsner> nooga: uh oh, they say that information is secret
12:51:35 <nooga> 0x10c?
12:51:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Notch's space sim thing.
12:51:44 <Taneb> Mojang's third or fourth game
12:51:53 <Taneb> (depends if you count Cobalt or not)
12:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It incorporates a programmable spaceship CPU.
12:52:21 <nooga> GOD this is lame!
12:52:58 <nooga> but it has a good side
12:53:20 <Taneb> It's set in an alternate history where the space race led to cryogenics
12:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, I'm not well-versed in CPU architecture, is it bad?
12:53:38 <Taneb> And an endiness mistake led to some people being frozen for trillions of years
12:53:40 <nooga> still better than x86
12:54:24 <nooga> but programming spaceships in assembler is the stupidiest thing i've ever heard
12:54:46 <kmc> x86 assembly is not that bad
12:54:54 <kmc> especially for writing
12:54:55 <Taneb> nooga, it just gives you the CPU and assembler. The community's making a C compiler and other stuff
12:55:00 <olsner> nooga: worked for the AGC! (I think)
12:55:14 <kmc> programming spaceships in assembler is how we got to the moon
12:55:16 <kmc> fyi
12:55:24 <nooga> yeah
12:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure that's correct.
12:55:28 <nooga> i know that
12:55:30 <olsner> I guess it's further proof for the moon landing hoax
12:55:35 <Taneb> I thought we just hit eachother with slide rules?
12:55:52 <nooga> Taneb: really? the community is already making a C compiler?
12:55:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Assembler seems like a needless extravagance, considering the computers on Apollo 11 had like 1300 NOR gates in total.
12:56:01 <Taneb> nooga, have been for a few months
12:56:15 <olsner> they're not done yet? how hard can it be
12:56:15 <nooga> link please
12:56:18 <Taneb> http://dcputoolcha.in/
12:57:18 <nooga> huh
12:57:35 <Phantom_Hoover> But will anyone port GHC?
12:58:08 <nooga> I thought about a massively multiplayer online RTS
12:58:13 <Taneb> Not sure if there's enough ram, Phantom_Hoover
12:58:23 <olsner> should be easy to port after they fix ghc to be properly cross-compilery
12:58:24 <Taneb> nooga, will the guns have CPUs?
12:58:27 <nooga> and the main idea would be that there are no units
12:58:37 <olsner> I mean, make a dcpu-targeting cross compiler
12:58:38 <nooga> except for one
12:58:55 <nooga> that would be programmable and multi-purpose
12:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It does seem like it'll be hopelessly niche, though.
12:59:20 <Taneb> Sorry, mixed up RTS with FPS
12:59:22 <nooga> and it's up to players to program their units to network with others
12:59:45 <olsner> porting the RTS might be a different question though
12:59:49 <nooga> and they could share or trade programs
12:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> An FPS with programmable guns would be the best thing.
12:59:56 <kmc> x86 has its ugly bits but compared to the overall difficulty of programming in assembly it's not a big deal
13:00:03 <kmc> other architectures have quirks
13:00:14 <kmc> it's just a dumb hipster thing to talk about how awful x86 is all the time
13:00:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Like, you could program it to I dunno, shoot bullets... to the left?
13:00:23 <kmc> remember that RISC is explicitly designed to make writing assembly by hand *harder*
13:00:31 <nooga> kmc: okay okay, i was joking abut x86
13:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, dude the only reliable way to get it into protected mode is to use the keyboard controller.
13:01:18 <kmc> you have engaged rant mode
13:01:26 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: a) that's a property of the PC platform, not x86
13:01:36 <kmc> b) i was talking about "normal" code not weird platform specific OS code
13:01:43 <kmc> which is pretty ugly on most systems
13:02:09 <olsner> setting up the A20 line is, like, two instructions of the whole thing
13:02:39 <kmc> RISC processors offload a *massive* amount of weirdness to the OS
13:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I know, I know, I just find it pretty funny.
13:03:05 <kmc> soft-fill TLBs, incoherent caches, etc
13:03:23 <kmc> on ARM Linux userspace can't do self-modifying code without a system call :(
13:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, so um wait what does the programming aspect in 0x10c actually handle?
13:04:59 <Taneb> Controlling the space ship, weapons, shields etc
13:05:02 <Taneb> Also minigames
13:05:13 <Taneb> Somebody made Tetris, iirc
13:05:19 <Phantom_Hoover> So... it's basically a straight programming game?
13:05:38 <Taneb> Ish
13:05:47 <Taneb> You can just use other people's code
13:06:03 <Taneb> It recommends sharing?
13:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I can see it working if the code consists of a layer between the player and the ship, so tweaking it is powerful but not vital.
13:06:20 <olsner> I think the reason x86 doesn't do e.g. incoherent caches is that it tries to preserve compatability with code made at the time a cache didn't exist
13:06:45 <Phantom_Hoover> But if having the better code is most of the game it'll just alienate most of the potential audience.
13:07:09 <kmc> the potential audience is ultra nerds
13:07:15 <olsner> a lot of that is actually pretty "nice" ... it requires the cpu to guarantee a lot of convenient stuff it wouldn't bother with otherwise
13:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, not even that, it's the subset of ultra nerds who enjoy programming games.
13:07:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Which is very, very small.
13:08:07 <kmc> but they're all creaming their pants right now
13:08:21 <kmc> so maybe notch cares more about making 1000 people do that
13:08:28 <kmc> rather than making a fun toy for 1,000,000 people
13:08:30 <kmc> which he already did
13:09:26 <olsner> but they have actually relaxed some parts of that... for example, self-modifying code is not supposed to be reliable in multi-cpu systems on x86
13:09:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Is olsner just soliloquising.
13:10:14 <olsner> if that means doing what I'm doing then that is what I'm doing
13:13:00 <Taneb> It means talking to the audience to explain your character's innermost thoughts, feelings and motives
13:13:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Urk, the 0x10c website doesn't say anything much about the way the gameplay works.
13:13:25 <Taneb> It's in really early development
13:13:38 <Taneb> It's not even at "Cave Game" state yet
13:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sure, but I'd hope he'd have some idea of the fundamentals of the gameplay.
13:14:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Although this *is* Notch.
13:14:17 <Taneb> It's all very hush-hush
13:14:30 <olsner> Taneb: hmm, sounds like that doesn't really apply here... unless I was describing the inner thoughts of the x86 architecture or something?
13:14:47 <Taneb> I think Phantom_Hoover was thinking about monologueing
13:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> No I wasn't!
13:22:41 <nooga> lol
13:22:50 <nooga> people are writing OSes for DCPU
13:23:26 <olsner> people are writing OSes for x86 too!
13:24:15 <Taneb> People are writing OSes for brainfuck
13:24:22 <Taneb> Well, at least person tried to write
13:25:32 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> Urk, the 0x10c website doesn't say anything much about the way the gameplay works. <-- IIRC notch spoke a bit about that on twitter when 0x10c was first announced
13:26:08 <nooga> okay
13:26:18 <Vorpal> <olsner> I think the reason x86 doesn't do e.g. incoherent caches is that it tries to preserve compatability with code made at the time a cache didn't exist <-- I thought it did for iL1?
13:26:22 <nooga> i will write forth like language for dcpu
13:26:23 <nooga> ha!
13:27:40 <Vorpal> sure why not
13:28:26 <Vorpal> if 0x10c takes off I assume there will be ready-made OSes for it so less nerdy people don't have to bother with programming for it
13:29:02 <Vorpal> I don't think I'm going to write DCPU asm, but forth? sure, why not
13:29:18 <nooga> or lisp
13:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But will the game still be fun if you're not interested in the programming?
13:29:33 <nooga> but GC would suck
13:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> That's what I'm curious about, and there's not much information there.
13:29:57 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway one interesting aspect of 0x10c is that you could do some really interesting stuff for computer controlled turrets or such potentially
13:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I know.
13:30:25 <Vorpal> you don't have to live with a sucky AI any more, you could improve it for your ship
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13:31:27 <Vorpal> also even if you are interested in programming, you might not want to program in a game
13:31:43 <Vorpal> for example: personally I tend to play games when I'm exhausted from programming
13:32:08 <nortti> does DCPU have any specified I/O systems? what about clock interrupt?
13:33:29 <Taneb> nortti, yes, and I think yes
13:33:39 <Taneb> #0x10c-dev is the place for this
13:33:40 <Vorpal> hm my phone has more video capturing devices under /dev than it has cameras...
13:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Cameras that /you/ know about.
13:34:25 <nortti> big brother is watching you!
13:34:26 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, reading stuff from /sys indicates a few of them are virtual devices, whatever that is
13:35:15 <olsner> the touch screen is actually exposed from the kernel as a video device
13:35:30 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, nortti http://sprunge.us/ZfbV
13:36:01 <Vorpal> I believe video0/video1 (that is 81:0 and 81:1) are the actual cameras based on running strings on a relevant user space library
13:36:26 <Vorpal> olsner, really? Or are you just making that up?
13:36:37 <olsner> Vorpal: Yes.
13:36:49 <Vorpal> olsner, yes to which question? :P
13:36:51 <nooga> http://aws.johnmccann.me/
13:36:53 <nooga> ow
13:36:56 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, are you richard stallman
13:36:57 <nooga> it has clock
13:36:58 <olsner> Vorpal: obviously
13:37:22 <Vorpal> olsner, ?
13:38:24 <Vorpal> hm some of those might be output devices, since surfaceflinger has video2 and video16 open
13:38:41 <Vorpal> (surfaceflinger is the android window compositor thingy)
13:39:33 <Vorpal> video11, video12 and video20 are not open anywhere.
13:43:09 <Vorpal> well, I guess I either want video0 or video1 then... Now, how to monitor the device...
13:43:30 <Vorpal> hm how would I transparently monitor access to a device file on linux?
13:46:48 <Vorpal> huh, strace reports I/O errors
13:49:44 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
13:52:17 <Vorpal> okay now it works?
13:52:36 <Vorpal> hm video0 is the primary camera, presumably video1 is the user-facing camera then
13:52:58 <Vorpal> and the driver is s3c-fimc
13:53:17 <nooga> ffffuuu
13:53:18 <nooga> https://github.com/dsmvwld/CamelForth-16
13:53:23 <nooga> why am I always late
13:53:37 <Vorpal> nooga, hey you could help me programming instead
13:53:42 <Ngevd> nooga, write a Cobol compiler
13:53:53 <Vorpal> nooga, it is more of a reverse engineer job though
13:54:56 <Vorpal> I want to get raw data from the Samsung Galaxy S3 camera. :)
13:55:33 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: no. I'm not rms. why?
13:56:24 <Phantom_Hoover> A while ago someone quoted RMS saying phones are tools of the government to spy on you.
13:57:03 <nortti> oh that. I own a phone. it is old nokia bought from second hand store with cash
13:57:20 <nooga> nortti: doesn't matter
13:57:35 <nooga> you shold destroy the phone after every call to be 100% sure
13:57:40 <nortti> :P
13:58:28 <Vorpal> ow, ow, ow. tarbomb
13:58:30 <Vorpal> why samsung
13:58:51 <Vorpal> good thing I did tar -tf first...
13:59:01 <nortti> what is tarbomb?
13:59:44 <Vorpal> nortti, a tar file that gives you multiple files and/or directories when doing tar -xf. Instead of creating one directory and placing all those files inside
14:00:17 <Vorpal> nortti, so if you did tar -zcf ../kernel.tar.gz . for example
14:00:26 <nortti> I know
14:00:36 <Vorpal> why did you ask what a tarbomb was then
14:00:38 <Vorpal> if you knew
14:00:44 <nortti> I meant what file was tarbomb
14:00:50 <Vorpal> oh
14:01:01 <Vorpal> samsung's kernel code release
14:01:04 <nortti> ok
14:01:05 <Vorpal> for the S3
14:02:20 <Vorpal> why didn't they include a .config
14:02:22 <Vorpal> idiots
14:04:26 <Vorpal> aha, found the relevant kernel headers. Now to figure out if getting raw data is possible
14:04:32 <Vorpal> I have no sodding clue
14:06:37 <Vorpal> wait, does v4l present an unified interface to the user space?
14:08:48 <Vorpal> wait what, why does the phone platform include CUPS4j drivers. Yes that seems to be a library for java to talk to CUPS
14:08:49 <Vorpal> why
14:10:36 <olsner> for printing, obviously
14:10:46 <Vorpal> olsner, yes but why printer support on a phone
14:10:55 <olsner> for printing! :)
14:11:04 <Vorpal> obviously
14:14:40 <olsner> googling suggests that people do indeed want and/or use printing on phones
14:14:53 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
14:15:10 <Vorpal> huh
14:15:19 <Vorpal> also there is some jpeg stuff in the kernel driver for it
14:17:35 <Vorpal> conclusion so far: badly documented code, need data sheet for device to understand it
14:23:57 <Vorpal> whoever wrote the Kconfig for this thing at Samsung sucked at English.
14:26:10 <olsner> samsung is korean
14:26:33 <Taneb> I'm thinking of Nokia, aren't I?
14:30:30 <olsner> Taneb: are you?
14:30:40 <Taneb> Is that the Finnish one?
14:31:20 <olsner> yes, they make tires, rubber boots and mobile phones
14:33:14 <nortti> olsner: tires and rubber boots are no longer made by nokia. they are produces by nokian
14:33:27 <nortti> *produced
14:34:54 <olsner> meh, boring
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14:35:42 <nortti> they also produced computers, telephones and telephone switches
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15:51:09 <fizzie> Hello from the Finnishland.
15:51:24 <Taneb> Hello from the Not Finnishland
15:52:07 <kallisti> hello ameriland.
15:52:21 <kallisti> great
15:53:07 <kmc> hello from thessaloniki
15:53:17 <Taneb> Evidently dubstep is the new punk?
15:53:42 <kmc> in what way
15:53:49 <olsner> how long ago was punk the new punk?
15:53:57 <Taneb> mid 70's
15:54:03 <Taneb> 1976, I think
15:54:21 <kallisti> Taneb: dubstep is not the new punk.
15:54:27 <kallisti> it is... the new dubstep.
15:54:39 <Taneb> In terms of the opinion of the world about it
15:54:40 <olsner> new dubstep? that's the old dubstep?
15:54:49 <kallisti> yes
15:55:52 <Taneb> The opinion being near universal contempt
15:56:26 <Taneb> I like pretty much every kind of music except for the Black Eyed Peas
15:56:27 <kallisti> I like some dubstep.
15:56:30 <kmc> wait what
15:56:31 <kallisti> lol?
15:56:34 <kallisti> SO SPECIFIC
15:56:35 <kmc> punk rock was enormously popular
15:56:35 <Taneb> I cannot STAND the Black Eyed Peas
15:56:37 <Taneb> :(
15:56:40 <kmc> and influential
15:56:47 <kmc> i think you probably know nothing about music
15:56:52 <kmc> why don't you argue with itidus21 about it
15:56:53 <Taneb> kmc, punk bands got attacked by people with knives
15:57:08 <kmc> right some people hate it violently
15:57:11 <Taneb> PEOPLE WITH KNIVES
15:57:12 <kmc> like anything
15:57:18 <kmc> football fans get attacked thus
15:57:24 <kmc> from which i conclude that the world hates football
15:57:56 <kallisti> I only listen to free baroquecore nintendostep garage folk
15:58:23 <Taneb> quoth the wiki: "Violent attacks on punk fans were on the rise."
15:59:15 <Taneb> I'm probably wrong
15:59:43 <kmc> this proves nothing
15:59:53 <kmc> the proportion of people who will violently attack anything is so small
16:00:05 <kmc> that you cannot generalize to the whole world
16:00:22 <kmc> this is possibly the most intellectually bankrupt argument i've heard in some time
16:00:49 <kmc> i suppose you think the beatles were universally hated too
16:00:52 <Taneb> Nah
16:00:57 <Taneb> I'm accepting I'm wrong now
16:01:05 <kmc> because john lennon got shot by one crazy person
16:01:12 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, jesus christ you don't have to be this hostile.
16:01:28 <kmc> no but i want to
16:01:30 <kmc> in this case
16:01:37 * kmc attacks Taneb with knives
16:01:54 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: jesus christ you don't have to be so LOUD about your distaste of his HOSTILITY.
16:02:02 <Phantom_Hoover> "Because I want to" is not really a good enough reason.
16:02:04 * Taneb parries with poorly understood IRC features
16:02:06 <kallisti> fucker.
16:02:07 <kmc> i'm offended by the fact that you're offended
16:02:35 <kmc> ;P
16:02:47 <kmc> (not really)
16:02:49 <kmc> anyway i'm done
16:02:53 <olsner> this is incredibly offensive, we need to just close the channel entirely now
16:03:00 <olsner> three strikes for everyone
16:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, kick everyone plx
16:03:43 <Taneb> On another note, I think Suetonius's chapter on the reign of Caligula is kinda like a sort of not really dubstep song
16:04:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I once had a plan to shut up the crickets someone in my biology class was using for an experiment with dubstep.
16:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It failed due to nobody having any dubstep to hand.
16:05:48 <kallisti> dubstep crickets..
16:06:09 <olsner> now enjoy some dubstep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sNxRji1STg
16:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Dubstep crickets would possibly have been even worse than the crickets he was using.
16:06:25 <Phantom_Hoover> But not by much.
16:07:35 <kmc> greece has about 20x as much anti-fascist graffiti as fascist graffiti
16:07:39 <kmc> i suppose this is a good thing
16:08:02 <kmc> allegedly 50% of the cops voted for the neo nazi party in the most recent election
16:08:35 <Phantom_Hoover> ah but the government have declared that all public surfaces are allowed to have fascist slogans written on them
16:09:03 <kmc> oh?
16:09:15 <kmc> well i can't read greek so i wouldn't really know
16:09:18 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that was a joke that fell apart due to obtuse grammar.
16:09:27 <kmc> every golden dawn logo i recognized was crossed out
16:09:53 <Taneb> I remember last time I went to France, I saw some Occitan independence graffiti
16:10:25 <kmc> the party with the most recognizable (to illiterate me) street presence is the communist party ΚΚΕ
16:10:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Golden Dawn is such a culty name.
16:10:40 <kmc> followed by anarchists if that counts
16:10:45 <kmc> PH: I know, right?
16:11:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Write "visca POUM" everywhere and test the Greeks' knowledge of George Orwell's autobiographical work.
16:13:37 <kmc> going to albania soon
16:13:49 <kmc> it is hoped that albania is not closed on sundays
16:14:09 <olsner> albania? isn't that the fictional country in the dilbert comics?
16:14:28 <kmc> no it's the fictional country in wag the dog
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17:00:11 <tswett> Sgeo_: thanks.
17:02:39 <Sgeo_> tswett, you're welcome
17:05:46 <quintopia> hi Taneb
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17:48:43 <Taneb> Hello
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17:57:36 <itidus21> (in relation to punk rock) i can't tell if things are good, or if things only appear good because of repeated exposure
17:58:04 <itidus21> that being said, i am convinced that it is possible to tell how much work has been put into something
17:59:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
17:59:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi, everybody!
18:00:25 <itidus21> but then, if you put work into something and you forget to put honesty, emotion, whatever else the platitdes say into it, then it will be as good as having done no work at all
18:00:59 <Taneb> Hi, Phantom_Hoover!
18:01:30 <Taneb> But yeah, I do not like Black Eyed Peas
18:01:42 <Taneb> Or polystyrene, but that's for different reasons
18:03:03 <itidus21> i think that my humps is a song about celebrating lust and hedonism
18:05:51 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
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18:14:41 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: Hi Dr. Nick.
18:15:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
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18:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, btw you have to ban everyone
18:57:48 <oerjan> again?
18:57:52 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
18:57:58 <oerjan> tsk tsk
18:59:54 <itidus21> im playing smb in slow motion.. and.. i just stomped a goomba, and then on the ricochet i stomped another goomba which was still in midair falling
19:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Reminds me of Braid.
19:00:15 <itidus21> it was like.. omg that just happened
19:00:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, Braid is essentially SMB with time travel and different aesthetics
19:00:44 <Taneb> And puzzles
19:00:53 <Phantom_Hoover> And a pretentious creator.
19:01:30 <itidus21> smb is my main obsession
19:01:59 <itidus21> when i first played it, it didn't mean an awful lot to me
19:04:07 <oerjan> <kmc> it is hoped that albania is not closed on sundays <-- it's muslim so probably fridays
19:04:52 <oerjan> <olsner> albania? isn't that the fictional country in the dilbert comics? <-- elbonia hth
19:05:06 <itidus21> i was playing in slow mo to check which frames are used in the walking animation
19:05:55 <oerjan> although i recall it was translated as albanania in my old norwegian larson and/or calvin & hobbes magazines
19:06:22 <oerjan> * +[sic]
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19:18:43 <itidus21> this is useless information but those bars made out of flames in the castles turn out to have 32 phases
19:21:57 -!- Vorpal has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:24:50 <quintopia> ais523: i had an idea. what do you think of a geek code-style colorized code to classify programs on the bfjoust strategies page according to which strategies they use?
19:28:27 -!- ais523 has quit.
19:29:10 <oerjan> totally speechless
19:29:29 <quintopia> lol
19:29:35 <quintopia> what do you think oerjan
19:30:06 <oerjan> geek codes are colorized these days?
19:30:52 <quintopia> nope
19:31:01 <quintopia> thats why i had to add that qualification
19:35:49 <zzo38> According to Wikipedia there is a rule in snooker that you have to make an attempt to hit the ball otherwise it is a foul and miss.
19:36:07 <zzo38> quintopia: What idea of colors did you think of?
19:37:16 <zzo38> What colors do you want?
19:56:37 <itidus21> i want better colours rather than more colours
19:57:27 <itidus21> who am i kidding?
19:57:57 <itidus21> what i want is to make something like super mario bros. but 1)original and 2)better
19:58:14 <itidus21> ahh
20:00:01 <itidus21> i guess it's like a mathematician saying, i want to make euclid's elements but better
20:00:30 <itidus21> except not like that at all
20:01:03 <itidus21> it's not my place to speak for math
20:02:19 <oerjan> euclid probably wasn't that original
20:02:35 <oerjan> as in, no way he invented all of it himself
20:02:50 <itidus21> wikipedia's position is "Although many of the results in Elements originated with earlier mathematicians, one of Euclid's accomplishments was to present them in a single, logically coherent framework, making it easy to use and easy to reference, including a system of rigorous mathematical proofs that remains the basis of mathematics 23 centuries later."
20:03:11 <itidus21> but, i suppose that means, a single editor on wikipedia decided to take that position
20:04:03 <itidus21> oerjan: heh.. is there any traces of pre-numeric humanity?
20:04:08 <oerjan> begs for a citation needed, then
20:04:53 <itidus21> i guess this is a difficult question i ask
20:04:57 <oerjan> itidus21: how in the world would you use scant archeological finds and fossils to detect that someone did _not_ know numbers?
20:05:05 <itidus21> yeah...
20:05:25 <oerjan> although there are supposedly recent tribes which don't count beyond 2 or 3
20:06:46 -!- Vorpal has joined.
20:07:19 <itidus21> WP mentions the mesopotamians using base 60 about 5400 years ago.. so it has to be older than that
20:07:36 <itidus21> maybe noone will ever know
20:08:10 <oerjan> numbers 1-10 in indoeuropean languages are commonly inherited, although i'm not sure how old the proto-language is supposed to be
20:08:42 <itidus21> WP also says "The units themselves grew out of the tradition of counting tokens used by the Neolithic (c 6000 BCE) cultural complex of the Near East.
20:09:26 <oerjan> it's _possible_ the need to count a lot of things only started with agriculture
20:09:43 <oerjan> you needed to know how many sheep you had
20:09:58 <olsner> it started with taxation, I think
20:09:58 <itidus21> so, wp is looking back at least 8000 years
20:10:50 -!- rapido has joined.
20:11:13 <itidus21> my interpretation of that wp sentence was a bit bad too
20:11:49 <oerjan> it's all sumerian to me
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20:16:13 <itidus21> " The oldest tally sticks date to between 35,000 and 25,000 years ago, in the form of notched bones found in the context of the European Aurignacian to Gravettian and in Africa's Late Stone Age."
20:16:44 <itidus21> yeah.. it could be a long search to find how far back it infact goes
20:19:00 <itidus21> ahh .. this is an exciting explanation of life in 300,000BC
20:19:33 <itidus21> Possessions had to be portable, since they had to be carried around. Everything that could not be carried, was left behind. People had to be quick in movement and reaction; being slow meant instant death. Animals were not the stuffy types we keep in zoos nowadays. They were bigger, fast as lightning and regarded a human just as another piece of juicy meat. And there were no gates or anything to keep t
20:19:33 <itidus21> hem back.
20:21:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So wait, the deer and the rabbits saw humans as another piece of juicy meat?
20:22:09 <itidus21> yes, there were no herbivores
20:23:53 <itidus21> so, this may sound rather daft, but what does counting actually bring?
20:24:17 <olsner> bigger and bigger numbers
20:24:25 <Phantom_Hoover> you know how many of a thing you have
20:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> you can tell if you have less or indeed, more
20:26:24 <itidus21> like for example, i imagine the reason people needed to know how many sheep they had is so that they would know if people stole them etc
20:26:44 <olsner> they hadn't invented crime back then, I think
20:27:13 <itidus21> maybe the idea was... so you could tell if you needed to search for a lost sheep?
20:27:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:27:32 <itidus21> i.. don't see
20:27:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:27:57 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, another benefit of counting
20:28:15 <olsner> I think one of the first uses was taxation: the accountants put a record of the number of sheep you have so that they know exactly how many sheep to demand of you
20:28:17 * oerjan hopes this doesn't mean the disconnections are back again
20:28:20 <itidus21> oerjan: forgive me if this is like trolling, but what is the main benefit of counting sheep?
20:28:45 <itidus21> ^i mean of knowing how many sheep you have
20:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, AND you can SEE the fundamental THESIS: TAXATION is THEFT
20:29:42 <oerjan> itidus21: knowing that you have not lost any when shepherding, or from theft?
20:29:50 <olsner> property is theft, taxation is stealing it back again
20:30:08 <itidus21> oerjan: cool. same conclusions i had
20:30:51 <itidus21> i guess it really does matter
20:31:40 <itidus21> because, like, suppose that you spill a bag of apples
20:32:04 <itidus21> if you know how many apples you had, you know when to stop expending energy in search of them
20:32:25 <itidus21> and you can also decide its not enough to expend any energy at all
20:32:38 <oerjan> <olsner> they hadn't invented crime back then, I think
20:33:05 <oerjan> i'm going to bet that's older than our species.
20:33:23 <itidus21> if other species do it, it's not crime :D
20:33:49 <oerjan> if other species will punish you if you're caught, i think it counts as crime.
20:33:51 <itidus21> ok i'm not helping
20:34:19 <itidus21> i saw on a tv show that monkeys don't like to be cheated at cards
20:40:14 <itidus21> so in the case of shepharding, if you know you have all your sheep theres no need to waste energy searching for lost sheep
20:41:08 <itidus21> and in the case of theft, i guess at the least you can relax more if you know noone stole stuff
20:41:40 <itidus21> but of course this can lead into attachment
20:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I love reading anti-Steam rants from 6 years ago.
20:50:43 <nortti> why?
20:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Because some of the commentators are people who will sing Valve's praises loudly today, and in general it's amazing just how much the opinions have whiplashed.
20:52:06 <oerjan> plashed by the wii
20:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Even better are when the comments are still open so the top ones are all agreeing and the bottom is vitriolic hatred for the author.
20:54:30 * oerjan wants there to be a vitriolic hatred comment that ends with "oh wait, i wrote that"
20:55:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember a similar anecdote with some mathematician being shown his own paper or a derivative of it and saying it was all tosh.
21:02:38 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:03:37 * oerjan thinks he's seen that guy before
21:04:08 <impomatic> Apparently I need to add a MIME map in system.webServer/handlers! Does anyone know how? http://corewar.co.uk/infinano/EERIE.RED
21:04:12 <Taneb> oerjan, who? impomatic?
21:04:32 <oerjan> Taneb: quite possibly
21:05:09 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:05:23 * impomatic thinks he's seen you guys before!
21:05:33 -!- nortti_ has joined.
21:07:27 <oerjan> impomatic: on my website you can put .htaccess files in each directory, i have one containing a line AddType text/plain .pl
21:08:50 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has joined.
21:09:02 <impomatic> oerjan: I don't think .htaccess works on the new server. it's something to do with web.config :-(
21:09:26 <oerjan> i think it tried to run my code examples as cgi without it. or maybe it just got some other type which wasn't convenient.
21:09:28 <nortti_> Frooxius|TabletP: what does TabletP mean?
21:10:32 <Frooxius|TabletP> it's supposed to be TabletPC
21:10:35 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has changed nick to Frooxius.
21:11:18 <oerjan> oh well then, i don't know about the central configuration (i'm not even an admin on the machine)
21:12:34 -!- derdon has joined.
21:13:55 <nortti_> http://www.sitepoint.com/microsoft-drop-trident-from-internet-explorer/ :D
21:15:51 * oerjan was going to complain the link was old
21:16:33 <nortti_> why you didn't complain?
21:16:55 <oerjan> because i actually read down to the quote first.
21:17:10 <Taneb> Just seen the date
21:22:05 <Taneb> @ping
21:22:05 <lambdabot> pong
21:22:36 <oerjan> @swing
21:22:36 <lambdabot> pong
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21:46:53 <Taneb> In decades to come, I'm gonna reminisce about IRC
21:47:08 <nortti_> why?
21:47:17 <Taneb> Why not?
21:47:23 <Taneb> You guys are great
21:48:22 <olsner> awww
21:48:43 <olsner> what will actually happen is that in decades to come, you are still here
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21:49:34 <Taneb> Then most of you will be gone, and I'll be annoyed that the young 'uns show no respect?
21:49:52 <Taneb> Crap, I've been here less than a year
21:49:59 <oerjan> then one day the singularity arrives. then you'll still be here, there will just be no world _outside_ the net any more.
21:50:15 <Taneb> It'll be a year next month, I think
21:51:08 <oerjan> Taneb: evidence shows that hexhammers get bored by this channel eventually, then just join occasionally to snark.
21:51:25 <Taneb> Your evidence has a sample size of what?
21:51:26 <Taneb> One?
21:51:44 <oerjan> i didn't say it was _good_ evidence
21:52:51 <olsner> I read a book once that said this is the basic law of hexhammery
21:52:57 <olsner> so it must be true
21:53:17 <Taneb> There's a book about Hexham?
21:53:37 <nortti_> I am picturing a hammer with hexadecimal numbers written on it
21:54:12 <oerjan> malleus malificarum
21:54:22 <oerjan> it's all about hammering hexes
21:54:24 <Taneb> olsner, was it by David West?
21:54:40 <olsner> Taneb: I don't know, I haven't read it yet
21:54:42 <oerjan> *maleficarum
21:56:40 <oerjan> "The word hex is a good example of the sort of borrowing from other languages that occurred in the English-speaking former colonies of Great Britain. German and Swiss immigrants who settled in Pennsylvania in the late 17th and 18th centuries spoke a dialect of German known as Pennsylvania Dutch. In this dialect hexe was the equivalent of the German verb hexen, "to practice sorcery." The English verb hex, first recorded in the sense "to practice witchc
21:58:12 <oerjan> witchcraft" in an 1830 work called Annals of Philadelphia, is borrowed from Pennsylvania Dutch, as is the noun."
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22:12:31 <soundnfury> isn't Hexenhammer a German rock band?
22:12:46 <oerjan> sounds plausible
22:15:21 <soundnfury> "Death Metal band from Germany (Paderborn), formed in 1999." sagt last.fm hier: http://www.last.fm/music/Hexenhammer
22:16:17 <soundnfury> score one for useless cultural facts in school languages lessons
22:18:42 * oerjan recalls reading about the hop gardens of kent
22:19:23 <oerjan> somehow that stuck from one of those
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23:06:09 <Taneb> Goodnight
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23:15:36 <shachaf> kmc: 16:15 <nobdraisentone> How can I convert `Maybe a` to `IO ()`?
23:15:40 <shachaf> Refreshing, isn't it?
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23:19:24 <Sgeo_> I'm a karma whore. I retyped some idiot's images with just a bunch of words
23:19:39 <Sgeo_> Not even to promote it particularly, because I disagree with much of it
23:19:39 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/x9yv5/heres_how_you_fix_reddit/c5klrgh?context=3
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23:34:47 <quintopia> zzo38: i didnt come up with any details yet. feel free to suggest.
23:35:17 <zzo38> I made some changes to MagicKit assembler, so that the target machine can be specified by command-line switches instead of only by filename, and .ASSIGN command to adjust reserved symbols, and it also includes an emulator now.
23:35:35 <zzo38> quintopia: Details of what?
23:37:19 <quintopia> zzo38: a code to classify bfjoust programs based onn the strategies they use
23:39:09 <zzo38> Perhaps you can have: slow/fast, offense/defense, file size, ...
23:49:18 <zzo38> Is it OK?
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2012-07-29
00:04:01 -!- impomatic has left.
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00:33:11 <clivebombejingle> Aloha
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00:45:05 <Sgeo_> Annoying thing about Tcl: Libraries that use callbacks can take the callbacks in several different forms, some of which are harder to deal with than others
00:45:18 <Sgeo_> The irc package in tcllib takes scripts
00:46:15 <Phantom_Hoover> OK so broken teabags are like 20% of what's wrong with the world.
00:47:04 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: If by "scripts" you mean what I think you mean, that's by far the most normal means of callbacks.
00:47:06 <olsner> luckily, it's trivial to live entirely without tea
00:47:22 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, ah
00:47:36 <Sgeo_> pikhq_, I'm under the impression that command prefixes are better
00:47:49 <Sgeo_> You can pass a script to something expecting a command prefix via apply
00:48:21 <Sgeo_> And using apply like that also makes it easy for arguments provided by the callback to go into arbitrary places in the script
00:48:32 <pikhq_> Sgeo_: Keep in mind that apply is relatively recent.
00:49:17 <Sgeo_> What's the normal way to pass in arguments to scripts? Make commands that give the data in question?
00:49:41 <pikhq_> Yeah, generally.
00:50:55 <Sgeo_> The normal way to have the callback include data specified when calling the thing that takes the callback is to make a proc and generate the script with [list]?
00:54:53 <Sgeo_> i.e.:
00:55:32 <Sgeo_> somesnitobj registerevent someevent [list myhandler $data1 $data2]
00:55:39 <Sgeo_> (e.g. not i.e.)
01:07:30 <tswett> So, I'm pondering how to implement computation in Proce.
01:09:05 <tswett> Logic gates are easy enough to implement. Suppose that 0 and 1 represent true and false, respectively, and f and g are signals.
01:09:45 <tswett> Then NOT f is f - 1; f AND g is r!(f + g - 1); and... you can figure out the rest.
01:10:45 <Sgeo_> It should in theory be possible to write long scripts in "[list ...];[list ...]..." form, right?
01:11:00 <Sgeo_> Although probably not the best way to go
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01:17:26 <tswett> So yeah, you get arbitrary finite state machines for free. You can also create Minsky machine registers, if you have an exactly accurate clock.
01:17:38 <tswett> And from there, of course, you can create a Minsky machine.
01:39:43 <tswett> Doing logic gates like I said seems like cheating, though. It's not supposed to be possible to store information outside of i! signals.
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02:25:37 <Sgeo_> pikhq, is this a bad idea http://nopaste.dk/p13368
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04:21:45 <kallisti> monqy: what does a monqy do.
04:22:01 <monqy> hi
04:22:01 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
04:26:36 <kallisti> monqy: word problem: a train leaves London traveling at 5 knotts. The london skyline's width decreases at a rate of 0.25 centimeters per second. What is the circumfrence of the sun in the sky?
04:27:38 <monqy> idk
04:27:46 <kallisti> correct!
04:30:46 <itidus21> i think that if one knew the circumference of the sun in general it would be the correct answer
04:31:06 <itidus21> but i think it is too trivial a fact to keep
04:33:06 <kmc> hichaf
04:33:42 <kallisti> shachaf: is your alt nick sha1chaf?
04:33:45 <kallisti> because it should be
04:35:17 <kallisti> I want to devise a word problem where the facts given in the word problem seem completely unrelated to the question at the end
04:35:27 <kallisti> but the answer can be accurately derived from the facts.
04:36:20 <kallisti> actually I know
04:36:28 <kallisti> the facts for the word problem can be
04:36:29 <kallisti> wikipedia
04:36:53 <kallisti> and the question can be: "How do you distribute wealth equally among all people in the world?"
04:37:06 <shachaf> kallisti: It's not.
04:37:14 <shachaf> himc
04:37:52 <kmc> i found Xhorxh W. Bush Street
04:43:34 <itidus21> i speculate that you can't play google pacman on the namco offices in google maps street view
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04:46:48 <unaffiliated> unaffiliated@unaffiliated/unaffiliated
05:03:06 <Sgeo_> The irc package in tcllib is disgustingly low-level
05:03:07 <Sgeo_> $conn registerevent 001 [list $conn join $config(chan)]
05:03:13 <Sgeo_> ^^how to join a channel
05:03:49 <unaffiliated> Sgeo_: my perl bot is better yo
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06:21:17 <Sgeo_> asdnlfjkashjkfawihefwkalfra
06:21:20 <Sgeo_> Trying to make an IRC bot
06:21:33 <Sgeo_> Latest bug in millionth test: Arbitrary code execution
06:25:02 <Sgeo_> Not arbitrary code, just arbitrary string commands
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06:53:47 <zzo38> I have gotten some messages on nesdev about my improvements to PPMCK
06:56:03 <zzo38> Some people had their own improvements so some of them I have also added on to my program too, such as allowing #EX-VRC-VII as an alias to #EX-VRC7
06:56:57 <kallisti> http://www.phun.org/newspics/funny_friday_2/7065.jpg
06:57:00 <kallisti> America in a nutshell
06:57:52 <zzo38> Will they fit?
07:00:02 <pikhq> zzo38: Well, if the whole universe can fit in a nutshell, surely just America can as well.
07:00:17 <pikhq> Unless perhaps ego has an anti-TARDIS effect on space.
07:00:44 <pikhq> Space In Dimension Relative And Time? Yes, clearly that is the anti-TARDIS effect.
07:01:10 <Sgeo_> pikhq, do Tumblr and Twitter not know how to send 304?
07:01:48 <pikhq> Sgeo_: I presume not.
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07:05:57 <zzo38> What is a anti-TARDIS effect?
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07:14:08 <Taneb> Hello
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07:30:28 <zzo38> I have thought of idea of some kind of programming language for compression, having four blocks: Archive block, Control block, Compress block, Calculate block.
07:30:48 <zzo38> O, and also Data block.
07:34:43 <zzo38> Calculate block are pure functions. Compress block are always reversible programming. Archive block has no flow controls (and always halts), except it can call Control block (but cannot decide what to do from the result), and the Archive block can also set values of registers.
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07:51:48 <zzo38> Well, I mean, the functions can be partial, but it is reversible when in range and otherwise error message if given wrong input.
07:54:23 <zzo38> What is a psychosimulator test?
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08:04:09 <itidus21> zzo38: when i saw this i thought you might like it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtbsje5dHtM
08:04:19 <zzo38> Too bad.
08:04:55 <itidus21> it should be clear from 30 seconds in why
08:05:44 <itidus21> i dont like this sort of game at all
08:05:54 <itidus21> but someone linked this
08:06:16 <zzo38> Stop linking videos too much, especially YouTube
08:06:52 <itidus21> the 8bit sound effects is only fun part
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08:07:10 <itidus21> sorry about that zzo38
08:07:19 <Taneb> Morning, PH
08:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Hello Taneb.
08:09:09 <kallisti> I am in an argument with someone
08:09:16 <kallisti> who is claiming that the peano axioms are not a definition of the natural numbers
08:09:19 <kallisti> because it defines other sets
08:09:21 <kallisti> such as the powers of two.
08:09:23 <kallisti> >_>
08:09:25 <kallisti> <_<
08:09:33 <Taneb> They aren't
08:09:33 <Phantom_Hoover> wow
08:09:35 <zzo38> Does it?
08:09:38 <Taneb> They contain, but aren't
08:09:41 <Taneb> I think
08:09:42 <kallisti> you can't even /have/ the powers of two
08:09:46 <kallisti> without the natural numbers
08:09:47 <zzo38> It seem to me that they don't
08:10:06 <Phantom_Hoover> kallisti, hey now don't start getting all philosophical.
08:10:08 <zzo38> As far as I know they define natural numbers only
08:10:17 <Taneb> Axioms one and six define the natural numbers
08:10:30 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: this argument is entirely philosophical
08:10:39 <zzo38> I think you need more than just axioms one and six.
08:10:40 <kallisti> because it's about what defines something in mathematics.
08:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "In mathematical logic, the Peano axioms, also known as the DedekindPeano axioms or the Peano postulates, are a set of axioms for the natural numbers[...]"
08:11:29 <Taneb> zzo38, seven, I think you need too
08:12:30 <zzo38> Actually I think you need all of them if they are to define the natural numbers, without all of them there would be other things too which follow these axioms
08:12:41 <Taneb> Maybe
08:13:15 <kallisti> you can't really define the ordering of natural numbers with only the first and sixth axioms
08:13:29 <kallisti> the sixth one only says "oh btw, if n is a natural, then so is S(n). good luck"
08:14:35 <kallisti> but that doesn't say whether S(S(n)) is a distinct natural number from S(n)
08:14:46 <Taneb> True, yeah
08:14:57 <Taneb> I'm wrong, as usual
08:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well duh, if you leave out the axioms defining the equality relation you don't have an equality relation.
08:15:23 <kallisti> yes, pretty much
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08:16:15 <Phantom_Hoover> You need all the axioms to define the natural numbers, by definition.
08:20:52 <kallisti> do you think that math is arbitrarily defined?
08:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh this conversation you're having sounds unbearable.
08:21:32 <kallisti> I think most of math exists as it does because either a) it describes something with useful applications b) we find it aesthetically pleasing
08:21:45 <kallisti> and otherwise we could rearrange all the axioms arbitrarily
08:22:31 <Taneb> The basic portions of maths are based on the real world
08:22:36 <kallisti> yes that's true.
08:22:40 <kallisti> that's a) really
08:22:48 <Taneb> If I have three apples, and someone gives me two more apples, I have 5 apples
08:22:54 <kallisti> we've defined math as it is because it describes a lot of shit we've encountered in the world.
08:22:56 <Taneb> And a mysterious apple-donor
08:26:08 <kallisti> but it's still... man-made
08:26:21 <kallisti> I think it's claiming too much to say that math describes "universal truths"
08:26:55 <Taneb> Any system with consistent axioms describes universal truths
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08:28:30 <Taneb> What's the correct course of action when finding a typo in a paper written 62 years ago?
08:28:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Tippex and a steady hand.
08:29:21 <Taneb> I lack both of those, and I'm reading it as a PDF
08:29:23 <Taneb> :(
08:30:02 <itidus21> perhaps take a note of it somewhere
08:30:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Use PDF editing software!
08:30:52 <fizzie> Taneb: Does the journal in which it was published still exist?
08:31:08 <Taneb> Yes
08:31:31 <Taneb> It may be a transcription error, though :(
08:31:46 <Taneb> It's a pretty famous paper, so somebody's bound to have seen it before
08:32:04 <Taneb> Computing Machinery and Intelligence by Alan Turing
08:34:45 <Taneb> Found another
08:45:12 <Taneb> Challenge: create a finite state automaton with lambda calculus at its core
08:45:33 <Sgeo_> I think I might need Haskell
08:45:47 <Sgeo_> I make so many dumb mistakes while programming, and Haskell catches them sooner
08:46:04 <Taneb> Example?
08:46:17 <Sgeo_> The 20 million bugs while writing my bot
08:46:24 <Taneb> :)
08:46:32 <kallisti> Sgeo_: I have this problem with perl
08:46:33 <Sgeo_> Forgetting $, putting it in the wrong place, not initializing an array consistently
08:46:34 <kallisti> but it's not major.
08:47:07 <Sgeo_> Also, make global variables too easy, and I think I use them
08:47:38 <Taneb> I like Haskell because it's how I think
08:49:46 <Taneb> And there's a random '['!
08:53:56 <Sgeo_> ?
08:54:10 <Taneb> Typos in this paper I am reading
08:54:15 <Sgeo_> Ah
08:54:43 <Taneb> Yeah, maybe you've noticed that tendency I have to entertain multiple trains of thought simultaneously
08:54:56 <Taneb> And make no distinction between them while talking
08:56:55 <shachaf> seen elliott
08:58:02 <Taneb> He was here yesterday, I seem to recall
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08:59:28 <Vorpal> why does windows insist on reinstalling drivers for an USB device if you connect it to a different port. What sort of crazy model requires that
08:59:51 <Taneb> Windows does
09:00:01 <Vorpal> well obviously
09:00:13 <Vorpal> anyway it doesn't apply to all devices, only most
09:00:19 <Vorpal> which is even stranger
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09:00:44 <Vorpal> wb
09:00:47 <Taneb> I need to work out why that happens
09:00:57 <Vorpal> Taneb, you click the close button?
09:01:05 <Vorpal> in case you missed it:
09:01:06 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> anyway it doesn't apply to all devices, only most
09:01:07 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> which is even stranger
09:01:12 <Taneb> I think it's me shift-clicking on the channel name
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09:01:32 <Vorpal> try it again?
09:01:37 -!- Taneb has left ("Leaving").
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09:01:46 <Vorpal> well there you are then
09:01:49 <Vorpal> don't shift click it
09:01:54 <Vorpal> why would you shift click it anyway
09:02:00 <Taneb> Not intentionally!
09:02:14 <Taneb> My mouse is over the channel name, because I've just switched to it
09:02:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: There's some sort of a port-specificness-weirdness also with the Windows drivers for the PS3 pad. It's certainly some kind of a thing.
09:02:28 <Vorpal> Taneb, how can shift-click happen unintentionally? Shift clicking is not a common operation in most irc clients
09:02:41 <Taneb> I'm holding shift down because I'm typing a capital letter
09:02:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, "some kind of a thing"?
09:03:03 <fizzie> Yes.
09:03:03 <Vorpal> Taneb, why do you type and click at the same time
09:03:03 <Taneb> And I tap my laptop's touchpad?
09:03:19 <Vorpal> Taneb, turn on the touch pad palm detection?
09:03:23 <Vorpal> or turn off the touch pad
09:03:33 <Vorpal> I have the touch pad turned off, I use the trackpoint instead
09:03:46 <Taneb> Don't have a trackpoint, or a mouse lying around
09:04:22 <Taneb> Fixed the problem
09:04:25 <Vorpal> palm detection then
09:04:31 <Taneb> Disabled clicking with touchpad
09:04:33 <nortti> I don't even have touchpad. my only pointing device is trackpoint
09:04:48 <Taneb> I now have to use the buttons just below the touchpad
09:05:09 <fizzie> The synaptics driver has some kind of a feature for autodisable-when-actively-typing, but I've never quite made it work.
09:05:28 <nortti> trackpoint is much nicer to use
09:06:27 <Vorpal> tapping to click with touchpad is quite bad too
09:06:33 <Vorpal> as in, it usually doesn't work properly
09:06:46 <Vorpal> nortti, indeed
09:06:57 <fizzie> I like tap-to-click, and ~never have problems with it. YMMV.
09:07:07 <fizzie> Someone recently asked me how to click with a trackpoint.
09:07:14 <fizzie> They kept trying to press it.
09:07:19 <nortti> actually trackpoint is the biggest reason why I use this computer
09:07:27 <Vorpal> I remember seeing laptops with trackballs
09:07:31 <Vorpal> might have been an early powerbook
09:07:43 <nortti> and old pc laptops
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09:07:46 <Taneb> The biggest reason I use this computer is because it's the fastest I have access to with working internet
09:07:46 <fizzie> There used to be laptops with balls, that's true.
09:08:15 <Vorpal> would be cool to have that as a scroll wheel in combination with a trackpoint for mouse movement
09:08:26 <Vorpal> nortti, modern thinkpads still have it
09:08:41 <Vorpal> nortti, so did a brand new toshiba netbook I recently interacted with
09:09:16 <nortti> Vorpal: yes but those also have trackpad that always gets in the way
09:09:16 <fizzie> Haven't seen that many separate trackballs around either, lately.
09:09:30 <Vorpal> nortti, you can turn those off though easily in linux
09:09:39 <Vorpal> nortti, like I did on the thinkpad I'm typing on atm
09:09:57 <Vorpal> in fact I bet it works under windows too, since there is an fn-key for it
09:10:20 <Vorpal> no clue why you would want stock windows on this though, it came with vista
09:10:41 <nortti> Vorpal: well what I meant by "trackpad that always gets in the way" I meant that they can't put large enough buttons under spacebar
09:10:54 <fizzie> The fact that there are separate mouse buttons for the trackpad and trackpoint, and that the latter are often adjacent to the trackpad (right above it) puzzles me for some reason. (Obviously they're there for the positioning, but still.)
09:11:01 <Vorpal> nortti, I don't find my buttons to be too small, let me take a photo.
09:11:16 <nortti> but yes. trackpad would also randomly move your pointer
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09:11:38 <Vorpal> wow the dust certainly shows up in the camera
09:11:45 <Vorpal> nortti not if you turn that off
09:11:54 <nortti> true
09:11:56 <Vorpal> besides modern trackpads are not quite as terrible wrt that
09:12:37 <nortti> actually I find new trackpads worse with that than old
09:13:36 <nortti> for example I never accidentaly moved mouse with my iBook G4 but I do it all the tine when I have to fix my sisters 2 years old hp laptop
09:13:45 <nortti> *time
09:13:51 <fizzie> I've gotten reasonably used to having a two-finger scroll on laptops too. (Don't interact with so many ThinkPads so don't really have a trackpoint habit.)
09:14:21 <Vorpal> nortti, I had terrible problems with phantom movements on my first model ibook
09:14:28 <Vorpal> (one of those blue clamshell ones)
09:14:57 <Vorpal> nortti, and I guess it could be a issue with quality rather than modernness
09:15:03 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that I had to do something special to the G4 iBook in order to make a two-finger scroll happen.
09:15:04 <Vorpal> HP is not exactly high quality
09:15:11 <shachaf> kmc: One day you'll quit every IRC channel. :-(
09:15:12 <Vorpal> a thinkpad is way better
09:15:34 <Vorpal> nortti, I don't have problems with phantom movements on my Lenovo Thinkpad touchpad unless I put my palms on it.
09:15:43 <nortti> fizzie: I actually used iScroll2 mouse driver with my iBook that enabled two finger scrolling. I never got really used to it and I'd just always use arrow keys
09:15:44 <Vorpal> and that was the reason I turned it off, because doing so was way too easy
09:16:01 <fizzie> nortti: Right, iScroll2, exactly.
09:16:24 <Vorpal> nortti, my dell latitude d610 (somewhat dated) has the touchpad slightly lowered into the palmrest, rather than at the same level
09:16:27 <Vorpal> so that helps a lot
09:16:32 <Vorpal> (and it also has a trackpoint)
09:16:46 <nortti> I wonder if iScroll2 works with my new iBook G3 (white)
09:16:51 <Vorpal> didn't have to turn the touchpad off there, since you don't end up putting your palm on it
09:18:19 <fizzie> "Supported models include most aluminum PowerBooks introduced from 2003 to 2004 as well as most G4 iBooks."
09:18:24 <Vorpal> nortti, not sure if this link will work for you. I hope it will: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cmy7xsmk3xlxrci/CD5mgXYRV5
09:18:44 <Vorpal> nortti, those buttons are just the right size for me
09:19:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, also middle mouse button
09:19:05 <Vorpal> can't live without it
09:19:10 <Vorpal> which is why I love this laptop
09:19:14 <Vorpal> (see photos)
09:19:16 <nortti> Vorpal: what format id that picture?
09:19:25 <fizzie> Vorpal: I just left-and-right-click for that.
09:19:27 <Vorpal> nortti, format? It is a web album
09:19:33 <Vorpal> nortti, click on the images to see them
09:19:35 <Vorpal> nortti, I took a few
09:19:57 <nortti> Vorpal: I can't do that. It requires javascript
09:20:00 <Vorpal> nortti, just the standard dropbox auto-album for anything you put under Photos
09:20:05 <fizzie> (I have no idea how to middle-click in Windows on that laptop, though.)
09:20:28 <Vorpal> nortti, does this work? https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AAA2GwVU2_I-BqLTkFaePxHNgcq-s7yihQJIAtG1-hj5qQ/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111221.jpg/lzLGnpTgvMZ-Eus5EQpZJZUnvmZ0d2ZyU7eEvkV-64Q?size=800x600
09:20:31 <Vorpal> and https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AADUvhtK7AOFlYVZCxbyUvJLQbbavq4pI_Lf-aWjvVwebA/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111227.jpg/0696oNZ4gQ5KhrnPBAqT3bcOxmRQ5SXfdfZsO1lz4Lo?size=800x600
09:20:40 <Vorpal> and also https://photos-2.dropbox.com/thumb/AABwx8n-oZ_Fq62CrCyhLgUiQm3ekERxOSeJTBCwgJht9w/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111239.jpg/bEx8pgZLQvGYh2iDmLqkddqCv_Sqzpg9MhoFUC584sM?size=800x600
09:20:50 <Vorpal> nortti, if those don't work then I don't know
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09:22:25 <nortti> Vorpal: they work. how large is that thinkpad?
09:22:48 <Vorpal> nortti, 15.4"
09:22:58 <nortti> ok. then those buttons are tiny
09:22:58 <Vorpal> nortti, 16:10 screen
09:23:09 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway the keys on the keyboard are full size
09:23:22 <Vorpal> well the letter and number ones
09:23:26 <Vorpal> obviously not the arrow keys
09:23:50 <Vorpal> nortti, anyway I have huge hands and I have no issues with those buttons
09:24:39 <Vorpal> nortti, I can reach from fn to p with my right hand. (fn to o comfortably)
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09:25:01 <Vorpal> fn to å if I don't have to be able to press down the key
09:25:20 <olsner> I think all thinkpad keyboards are sized for the smallest thinkpad models
09:25:46 <nortti> Vorpal: on T20 my left and right mouse buttons are bit larger that all of the mouse buttons and middle buttons is under them and is is around the same size as all of your mouse buttons
09:26:06 <Vorpal> olsner, well the keys on the main area of the keyboard have the same size as the keys on my full size PS/2 keyboard that I use for my desktop
09:26:10 <nortti> *left and right mouse button combined
09:26:27 <Vorpal> olsner, not as deep obviously, but the same area for the raised bit
09:26:45 <nortti> also my T20 lacks screen and battery
09:27:01 <Vorpal> nortti, this is an R500 btw
09:27:26 <Vorpal> nortti, your mouse buttons must cover most of the area below the keyboard then?
09:27:30 <Vorpal> nortti, can you take a photo
09:28:05 <nortti> Vorpal: I don't have camera on my phone
09:28:13 <Vorpal> hm
09:28:20 <Vorpal> nortti, thought you had an old android one?
09:28:25 <Vorpal> upload over wifi?
09:28:28 <Vorpal> anyway the key area is 6 cm x 1.8 cm
09:29:03 <Vorpal> nortti, I'm pretty sure that the Android compatiblity spec said "has a camera" until like 4.0 or 4.1
09:29:30 <Vorpal> (same for "has wifi" until 3.0 I believe?)
09:29:55 <nortti> Vorpal: yes. I have HTC Widlfire but it doesn't work very well. I can try it later when it strarts charging the battery
09:30:15 <Vorpal> olsner, hm then the smallest one must be like 14" based on my keyboard
09:30:21 <Vorpal> maybe 13"
09:30:51 <nortti> on my 15" T20 keyboard spans the entrire width of thre laptop and keys are full size
09:31:02 <Vorpal> nortti, you should get one of the crazy thinkpads. With the butterfly keyboard
09:31:10 <nortti> why?
09:31:15 <Vorpal> because they are awesome
09:31:22 <nortti> aren't those old
09:31:31 <nortti> I meanj like 90's old
09:31:40 <nortti> *mean
09:31:59 <Vorpal> nortti, full size keys here again, except for the F-keys, esc, the windows keys, prtsc,scrlk,pause,insert,delete,home,end,pgup,pgdn and the arrow keys
09:32:13 <Vorpal> oh and those keys below shift and above the left and right arrows
09:32:19 <Vorpal> which are "back" and "forward"
09:32:24 <Vorpal> kind of neat
09:32:31 <Vorpal> works to switch tabs in kate
09:32:37 <Vorpal> also back/fwd in browser
09:32:56 <fizzie> Misread "keyboard spans the entrire width of three laptops".
09:33:01 <fizzie> That's be quite a keyboard.
09:33:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
09:33:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, it would be a butterfly style keyboard
09:33:37 <Vorpal> or the laptop would have infinite width
09:33:52 <Vorpal> since you obviously measure the width of the laptop based on a folded up laptop
09:33:52 <nortti> oh. I also have not-completely-full-size-but-almost keys for esc, F keys, SysRq, SrcLk, Break , Insert, Delete, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn
09:34:22 <Vorpal> right
09:34:42 <Vorpal> nortti, my F-keys are only slightly less wide but about half the height
09:35:03 <Vorpal> esc is a bit taller than that
09:35:10 <Vorpal> about 2/3 of a normal key
09:35:14 <nortti> same with T20
09:35:27 <Vorpal> nortti, do you have hardware volume buttons too
09:35:32 <nortti> no
09:35:37 <fizzie> All keys on this things next to me are full-size-when-it-comes-to-width, but the top row (esc, f1-f12, sysrq, break, ins/del, / and * from numpad) is a bit less tall than the others. Maybe that 2/3rds.
09:35:56 <nortti> ar maybe I had at the empty holes at the top of the keyboard
09:35:57 <Vorpal> btw my old dell laptop has both hardware volume buttons and volume on fn-combos
09:35:58 <nortti> *or
09:35:59 <Vorpal> I have no idea why
09:36:08 <Vorpal> it lacks screen brightness on fn though
09:36:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: My old laptop (the model of which I've forgotten) has a hardware volume *knob*. Now *that's* retro.
09:36:42 <nortti> :P
09:36:46 <Vorpal> yes that was awesome
09:37:03 <Vorpal> because I normally like my volume below the lowest step
09:37:04 <Vorpal> on anything
09:37:16 <Vorpal> seriously, why is everything so god damn loud
09:37:19 <fizzie> Well, I guess "knob" is a bit of a wrong word since it's a sunk-in thing. But a thing you rotate. (Awkwardly.)
09:37:33 <Vorpal> I had to use the equaliser settings on my phone to counteract the loudness for example
09:37:45 <Vorpal> so I set everything in the equaliser down as far as possible
09:38:01 <Vorpal> then music is about the right volume in the headphones
09:38:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I remember seeing that on an old toshiba
09:38:25 <nortti> I have alsamixer at about 80% and mplayer at 39%
09:38:31 <Vorpal> nortti, whoa
09:39:02 <Vorpal> anyway I do turn it up a bit when I'm in a loud environment, normally one or two steps, not much anyway
09:39:10 <nortti> and the volume control on my headphones at the lowest setting possible
09:39:15 <Vorpal> hm
09:39:21 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's a Toshiba Tecra 730CDT, apparently.
09:39:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't remember what toshiba it was I saw it on
09:39:59 <fizzie> http://www.recycledgoods.com/product_images/b/886/s_p_10719_1__07188_zoom.jpg -- the knob is up there.
09:40:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, did they make a series called Satellite or something?
09:40:10 <fizzie> Yes.
09:40:10 <Vorpal> I think that might have been it
09:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably was around 2000-2004 or so
09:40:32 <Vorpal> okay your one is even older I bet
09:40:38 <fizzie> This is from 1996.
09:40:48 <Vorpal> right
09:40:49 <fizzie> "Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor and PCI bus provide the kind of speed that would have been practically unthinkable in a notebook PC. Until today! Now there's the Tecra 730CDT."
09:40:53 <nortti> fizzie: that is one awesome laptop
09:40:58 <fizzie> (From Toshiba's product page.)
09:41:05 <fizzie> nortti: Mine doesn't have a battery, though.
09:41:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, they called them notebook then?
09:41:18 <nortti> fizzie: how much memory does it have?
09:41:26 <fizzie> nortti: "And the hard disk and memory capacity are also pushing back the boundaries of what you thought possible: the 2.16 billion byte hard disk and 16 MB EDO RAM (expandable up to 144 MB - yes that's one hundred and forty four MB) will take care of the most complex programs and data-hungry applications - no problem."
09:41:28 <Vorpal> I thought that was a word invented after the stuff about "uh, it is bad to use it in your lap"
09:41:38 <fizzie> nortti: I think 32 or 48 in my particular case.
09:41:57 <fizzie> I like the "2.16 billion byte hard disk" part.
09:42:07 <fizzie> Somehow a billion bytes is much more impressive than a gigabyte.
09:42:09 <nortti> fizzie: ok. it fits inside my processing power requirement
09:42:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, so that is... 216 MB?
09:42:19 <Vorpal> oh wait
09:42:23 <Vorpal> 2.16 GB
09:42:23 <fizzie> Two gigs.
09:42:25 <Vorpal> right
09:42:36 <fizzie> "Communications are just as easy on the Tecra 730CDT, with 2 PC-card slots and the integrated 28.8 kbps modem with full telephony functions (including hand-free and answer-phone options). The built-in infra-red port even makes cable-free data transfer with printers or other PCs possible. A further highlight of the Tecra 730CDT is the 6-speed CD-ROM drive. And when you want to use the floppy ...
09:42:43 <fizzie> ... disk drive, all you do is swap them over. Or simply attach the floppy disk drive externally.
09:42:46 <fizzie> Multimedia heaven is complete with the super-sharp 12.1-inch SVGA screen and a resolution of 1024 x 768 pixels. The PCI-bus, special graphics drivers and 2 MB Video RAM guarantee you the ultimate in visual experiences."
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09:42:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, hey you could hook it up to my dell, it has IRDA too
09:43:13 <nortti> 1024x768! that is the resolution of my iBook G4's screen
09:43:22 <fizzie> nortti: It's got two megs of video memory, so you can't run 1024x768 in truecolor. 64k colors is fine, though.
09:43:36 <Vorpal> hm my dell can attach it's ultrabay-style floppy drive externally via USB too
09:43:47 <nortti> fizzie: does it have ethernet?
09:43:49 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't have a floppy drive for this either, actually.
09:43:56 <Vorpal> that dell is quite strange, a lot of hardware on it seems very thinkpad-ish
09:44:04 <fizzie> nortti: Not built-in, but I have a CardBus card in it.
09:44:11 <Vorpal> like the trackpoint and the ultrabay
09:44:25 <nortti> cool. I could use that computer as my main machine
09:44:43 <fizzie> A D-Link one that has a full-sized RJ45 port right in the proturding thick part; I have some 3com pcmcia cards that use an adapter cable instead, and those are always breaking/getting lost.
09:44:44 <Vorpal> nortti, fancy, my ibook (g3) had 800x600
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09:45:34 <nortti> Vorpal: my iBook g3 has 1024x768. it is the white 500MHz one
09:45:38 <Vorpal> hm
09:45:39 <fizzie> nortti: The HD is not the original model, though; I think it's something slightly smaller than two gigs.
09:46:31 <fizzie> I think I've last used this for something that needed a DOS and a serial port.
09:46:47 <Vorpal> do modern PCs still have an ISA bus? I know my laptop does (I believe there are some hardware sensors on it) but I don't remember if my desktop does
09:46:50 <Vorpal> can't check on it atm
09:46:50 <fizzie> I'd boot it up to see what it's running except I'm not entirely sure where I stored the charger.
09:46:57 <Vorpal> my desktop uses EFI and what not
09:47:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, are you back from Belgium then?
09:47:13 <nortti> Vorpal: the toilet seat ones have the 800x600 screen also used in PowerBook G3 "mainstreet" but later ones use same screen as "wallstreet" pb g3s
09:47:22 <Vorpal> nortti, you mean clamshell?
09:47:27 <nortti> Vorpal: yes
09:47:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yes, arrived late last Friday.
09:47:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
09:48:01 <fizzie> And I believe they often have a thing that looks like an ISA bus programmatically (e.g. for those sensors), but I'm not sure you can count that as a real ISA bus. Maybe so.
09:48:37 <fizzie> The sensors on this desktop are hooked to an IT8718 chip connected via "ISA".
09:49:09 <fizzie> Sometimes it's some sort of a smbus/i2c thing instead, though.
09:49:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, my laptop has both an ISA bus and an SMbus
09:49:35 <Vorpal> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation ICH9M LPC Interface Controller (rev 03)
09:49:35 <Vorpal> 00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) SMBus Controller (rev 03)
09:49:47 <fizzie> 00:14.0 SMBus: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 SMBus Controller (rev 3a)
09:49:48 <Vorpal> sensors seem to be on isa though
09:49:49 <fizzie> 00:14.3 ISA bridge: ATI Technologies Inc SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller
09:50:00 <Vorpal> intel graphics on this one
09:52:11 <fizzie> From the laptop:
09:52:11 <fizzie> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation HM65 Express Chipset Family LPC Controller (rev 05)
09:52:15 <fizzie> 00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family SMBus Controller (rev 05)
09:52:22 <Vorpal> hm
09:52:28 <Vorpal> intel graphics?
09:52:32 <fizzie> Nnno.
09:52:37 <fizzie> Just an Intel chipset.
09:52:40 <Vorpal> why the multitude of n?
09:53:07 <nortti> 00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX AGP bridge (rev 03)
09:53:10 <nortti> 00:02.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1450 (rev 03)
09:53:17 <fizzie> Oh, in the "nnno". Well, nnno particular reason. I was just thinking.
09:53:26 <Vorpal> nortti, 15:00.0 CardBus bridge: Ricoh Co Ltd RL5c476 II (rev ba)
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09:53:48 <Vorpal> nortti, I have Express Card too
09:53:57 <Vorpal> can't spot it in lspci though
09:54:18 <Vorpal> one PC Card slot and one Express Card slot
09:54:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, displayport or hdmi?
09:55:11 <Taneb> @tell zzo38 Prelude.Generalize.choice is identical to Data.Foldable.asum, which Prelude.Generalize exports anyway
09:55:11 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:55:26 <fizzie> Vorpal: On the laptop? There's HDMI, DVI and VGA ports, IIRC.
09:55:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, DVI on a laptop?
09:55:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, what sort of monster is that
09:56:06 <fizzie> I suppose they had space left over.
09:56:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, where?
09:56:22 <fizzie> In the back. It's kind of a big laptop.
09:56:26 <Vorpal> must be
09:56:31 <fizzie> Okay, just 15.4", but kinda on the thick side.
09:56:39 <Vorpal> hm okay
09:56:47 <fizzie> I don't really carry this one around.
09:56:51 <Vorpal> I only have power and modem on the back. On and the battery slides in from the back too
09:56:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, then why laptop
09:57:07 <Vorpal> a desktop monitor would be ergonomically better
09:57:24 <fizzie> Because I sometimes do want to take it with me, e.g. for trips like this Belgium thing.
09:57:36 <Vorpal> fair enough
09:57:46 <Vorpal> oh was this that custom made one from Germany?
09:58:04 <Vorpal> or was that someone else
09:58:12 <fizzie> Well, "custom made" is perhaps a bit of an overstatement, but yes, it had some custom component selection involved, and it did come from germany.
09:58:22 <Vorpal> hm
09:59:04 <fizzie> The base laptop is fixed, I just got to choose what sort of graphics card, HD, wifi things etc. went into it.
09:59:07 <nortti> Vorpal: I use desktop monitor with my T20 because original screen was partly nonfunctional and it fell of at the hands previuos owner
09:59:16 <Vorpal> I wonder how hard it would be to buy components and build your own laptop... I guess finding a laptop case might be the hardest part
09:59:32 <Vorpal> and I guess they aren't really standardlized, so probably custom mobo then too
09:59:41 <nortti> Vorpal: there are instructions how to build one around beagleboard
10:00:11 <Vorpal> beagleboard hm
10:00:13 <Vorpal> which one is that
10:00:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think you can buy the same "skeleton" that was used for this laptop even as a regular customer, though that's of course only about halfway building your own laptop.
10:00:17 <Vorpal> is it like the pi?
10:00:28 <nortti> Vorpal: yes but more expensive
10:00:31 <Vorpal> right
10:00:36 <Vorpal> oh ARM based
10:00:46 <fizzie> So's the Pi.
10:00:50 <nortti> Vorpal: and it has faster processor and it is ARMv7
10:00:58 <Vorpal> nortti, I meant for a higher end laptop. Something with maybe a x86 and nividia or AMD graphics
10:01:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes of course
10:01:35 <nortti> Vorpal: that will be hard
10:01:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, did the skeleton include the mobo?
10:01:46 <Vorpal> nortti, indeed
10:02:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, because I don't think laptop mobo form factor is standarlised
10:03:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: Sure. It's got the case (with the display panel) and the motherboard; then you plug in a graphics card using that whatever-it-was thing they have for laptops; some memory; there's I guess minipci slots for wifi; a slot for a 2.5" SATA disk; and I think that's about it for the customization. The optical drive is also part of the thing, since it needs to fit the chassis.
10:03:42 <fizzie> The front is sloped to match and so on.
10:04:08 <fizzie> So there's not terribly much you can change. I guess the graphics card is pretty much the major piece.
10:04:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, no ultrabay?
10:04:26 <Vorpal> and I guess battery must be custom made for it too
10:04:42 <fizzie> I don't think you can have an UltraBay if you're not a ThinkPad.
10:04:49 <fizzie> I mean, I'm sure they have patents or whatnot on it.
10:05:09 <fizzie> A thing called UltraBay, I mean.
10:05:19 <Vorpal> well sure it is probably trademarked
10:05:28 <Vorpal> you could have the same idea anyway
10:05:31 <Vorpal> my old dell has
10:05:32 <fizzie> There could obviously be some sort of a different swappable slot, but that'd be proprietary too.
10:05:54 <fizzie> Yeah, but it's still limited to different parts from the same company.
10:05:59 <Vorpal> true
10:06:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, does the optical drive do DVD-RAM?
10:06:33 <fizzie> I think it does. Anyway, they do have a selection. It's not exactly UltraBay-like in that it's not hotswappable, but they have a selection.
10:06:34 <Vorpal> you can do: $ cd-info | grep DVD-RAM
10:06:41 <fizzie> You could have ordered this with a bluray thing.
10:06:52 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
10:06:56 <fizzie> I don't have a "cd-info".
10:07:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm let me see which package it is from
10:07:19 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/jWZa
10:07:30 <fizzie> libcdio-utils on Ubuntu, apparently.
10:07:44 <Vorpal> right
10:07:49 <Vorpal> mine is still searching
10:07:51 <Vorpal> slow disk
10:07:59 <Vorpal> libcdio-utils: /usr/bin/cd-info
10:08:00 <Vorpal> yeah
10:08:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/hIIK from cdrecord -prcaps.
10:08:26 <fizzie> s/caps/cap/
10:09:05 <fizzie> (It continues a whole lot longer, but those were the most interesting parts, perhaps.)
10:09:17 <Vorpal> Does not read CD bar code <-- huh?
10:09:24 <Vorpal> (from that command's output on my laptop)
10:09:28 <fizzie> Mine doesn't either.
10:09:28 <Vorpal> CD bar code?
10:09:39 <fizzie> I'm sure there's some kind of weird standard.
10:09:46 <fizzie> Perhaps it's written in the rim or something.
10:09:51 <Vorpal> the full output of mine http://sprunge.us/ZRHY
10:10:29 <fizzie> Well, http://sprunge.us/GfZF for comparison purposes.
10:10:59 <Vorpal> what is R-W subcode?
10:11:10 <fizzie> I've known that, but forgotten.
10:11:18 <fizzie> There's all kinds of complications in the CD standards.
10:11:26 <fizzie> In addition to the main data bit.
10:11:47 <Vorpal> right
10:11:51 <fizzie> I remember that some of these things were relevant when it came to getting PSX disk images done correctly.
10:13:15 <Vorpal> heh
10:13:43 <fizzie> There are subchannels P, Q, R, S, T, U, V and W; P and Q are somewhat standard (and related to audio CD positioning, apparently) but the R-W subchannels are unused in the basic audio CD standard.
10:13:50 <fizzie> Extensions (and copy protection schemes) use those, though.
10:14:04 <Vorpal> ah
10:14:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, so if the drive can't read them, the copy protection could not check them I guess?
10:14:46 <Vorpal> I wonder why the drive simply can't return a raw data stream of the disk
10:14:50 <Vorpal> would be so much easier
10:15:11 <fizzie> Yes. And in the case of the PSX, it also means you couldn't use the drive to make a copy that'd work in the original device, since the drive in that can read those.
10:15:28 <Vorpal> fair enough
10:15:42 <Vorpal> how advanced is PSX emulation these days?
10:16:07 <fizzie> Good enough, I'd suppose.
10:16:13 <fizzie> You can do PS2 these days too.
10:16:31 <Vorpal> really?
10:16:50 <Vorpal> didn't it have too many co-processors all running on the same clock line or something?
10:16:51 <fizzie> Sure. I've played through FFX and a large part of FFXII with PCSX2 on the laptop we were speaking about.
10:17:12 <fizzie> It's not perfect, but "high-profile" things are playable.
10:17:20 <fizzie> They do quite a lot of recompilation and whatnot there, though.
10:17:49 <Vorpal> right
10:17:54 <fizzie> Also offloading things on the GPU. At least based on the configuration menus; haven't looked closer than that.
10:18:36 <fizzie> Original PSX is probably a solved problem. There's a PSX emulator in the N900 repositories.
10:18:45 <fizzie> Haven't tried it, and that might not work so well, but it exists. :p
10:18:49 <Vorpal> hah
10:19:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you happen to know anything about video for linux?
10:19:30 <fizzie> I've written some code for the API, and it wasn't very pleasant, but that's about it.
10:19:30 <Vorpal> some sort of kernel framework for cameras
10:19:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh is it a standard API for all devices or a different one for each device?
10:20:22 <fizzie> It's standard as seen from the userland side. But I'm under the impression there's all kinds of messiness there to account for the widely different hardware.
10:20:27 <Vorpal> hm
10:20:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm trying to figure out if it would be possible to extract raw data from my phone camera
10:20:43 <fizzie> They've smungled video capture cards and webcams and digital-TV devices all under the same thing.
10:20:58 <fizzie> That depends on what the driver exports via V4L, I suppose.
10:21:00 <Vorpal> the drivers are badly commented for it and not in the standard kernel tree
10:21:14 <Vorpal> they are in the samsung open source kernel dump thingy
10:21:37 <Vorpal> I realised I really needed documentation for the hardware to understand it
10:21:38 <fizzie> You can query the capabilities via the standard API, you could start with that.
10:21:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you do that?
10:21:57 <Vorpal> and where is the v4l docs
10:22:04 <fizzie> You'd need to write a bit of code. Or, well, find some sort of a utility APP, I'm sure there's one.
10:22:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, well I do have a cross compiler setup
10:22:33 <Vorpal> so not an issue, I might need to copy some headers
10:22:37 <fizzie> s/APP/app/, I don't know why I capitalized it.
10:22:42 <fizzie> http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/ for V4L2, apparently.
10:22:51 <Vorpal> bytesex, really...
10:22:54 <fizzie> I remember I've used the wiki that's linked from there.
10:23:09 <fizzie> That's on linuxtv.org, they have a lot of V4L-related stuff there.
10:23:17 <Vorpal> god damn, what a massive spec
10:23:20 <fizzie> Not sure if there's an API reference, though.
10:24:18 <fizzie> It's a lot of ioctls, that's for sure.
10:24:47 <Vorpal> I don't have an issue with ioctls
10:25:23 <fizzie> I wrote a piece of code to feed /dev/random with (hashed) bits from noise from a webcam. (There are quite a few other such pieces of code too.)
10:25:27 <Vorpal> anyway it was two ioctls for the actual photo bit, a bit more for either setup or preview. (I used strace on the camera app yesterday)
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10:26:15 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure there's also v4l-oriented libraries that try to make things better, and those might have better API docs too.
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10:26:25 <Vorpal> any recommendations
10:26:31 <Vorpal> because that API seems horrible
10:26:41 <fizzie> I don't know of them; the single webcam-related software I did just spoke raw V4L2.
10:27:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, was that v4l or v4l2?
10:27:49 <fizzie> 2, I don't think 1 is very current at all.
10:28:17 <Vorpal> ah
10:28:45 <fizzie> mplayer has a V4L2 input driver which you could possibly also abuse to find out what you can get from the card, though it's kind of video-oriented. (I'm sure someone's compiled mplayer for your thing already.)
10:29:52 <fizzie> Anyway, it's very possible that the driver doesn't export the raw sensor data over V4L. You need a custom camera driver on the N900 to get that kind of stuff. (Then again, it still might.)
10:30:16 <Vorpal> hm
10:30:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think the preview image arrives at the android API level as RGBA data (still not raw, but at least uncompressed).
10:30:59 <fizzie> Yeah, the JPEG compression you might be able to avoid.
10:31:07 <Vorpal> but yes there is a jpeg folder in the samsung kernel code bit
10:31:11 <Vorpal> which worries me
10:31:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, then again it might do jpeg even before the kernel level, since there are some references to hwjpeg in the user space *.so file for the camera.
10:32:09 <fizzie> That's possible, yes.
10:32:10 <Vorpal> or that might just be a hardware accelarator called from the kernel
10:32:16 <Vorpal> or it might even refer to another model
10:32:21 <Vorpal> they just reusing the same *.so
10:32:49 <fizzie> The N900 does JPEG on the DSP chip, but I believe the userland camera app just calls into that, after getting uncompressed RGB from the camera. Haven't looked at it closely.
10:33:10 <Vorpal> can't find source code for the user space part of it
10:33:24 <Vorpal> CM9 build script just copies that file from a stock rom XD
10:33:29 <fizzie> I have a cheapo webcam here which does JPEG already on the camera side, and (as far as I know) doesn't support returning non-uncompressed stuff at all.
10:33:51 <fizzie> The V4L api has image formats for things returning JPEG-compressed stuff, so it's possible to do it in the driver.
10:34:02 <Vorpal> right
10:34:04 <fizzie> (And of course it could be using a custom extension if V4L didn't have a standard for it.)
10:34:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, so how would I go about figuring out if it is possible
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10:34:26 <Vorpal> that API looks horrible
10:35:07 <Vorpal> where are the headers for v4l
10:35:11 <Vorpal> I can't find them
10:35:34 <Vorpal> oh videodev2.h
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10:37:56 <Vorpal> wow... I was wondering why tab complete for ~/src was broken. Turned out I was sshed to the wrong system
10:38:12 <Vorpal> with a host name of about the same length
10:38:19 <Vorpal> and the same prompt colouring
10:39:02 <fizzie> If strace supports logging read(2) data into file, you could also do that, take a picture, then try to see if there's some kind of a full-frame sized (sequence of) reads that looks like raw RGB data.
10:40:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, thing is, the process issuing ioctls to the device file never read from it
10:40:10 <Vorpal> as far as I could tell
10:40:21 <Vorpal> very strange
10:40:49 <fizzie> Hrm. Well, it could have some sort of a camera daemon involved. I'unno.
10:42:19 <Vorpal> hm my compiler errors out on including linux/videodev2.h
10:42:35 <Vorpal> with field timestamp having incomplete type
10:43:00 <Vorpal> oh timeval
10:43:04 <Vorpal> which header is that
10:43:37 <Vorpal> ah
10:51:18 <Vorpal> wait what, why is open() in a different header than close()?
10:52:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you know why?
10:56:00 <fizzie> Not really, though they're not exactly coupled. I mean, you can close anything (so unistd is a reasonable place for it), but you can open only files.
10:56:24 <fizzie> "Reflects existing practice" is probably the official (un)reason.
10:59:21 <fizzie> The "ultra high speed +" in that cdrecord -prcap output is approaching Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo levels of nomenclature.
10:59:39 <Vorpal> well I read the caps successfully and it returned what I expected, that just lists the name of it though
10:59:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, hah
11:00:23 <Vorpal> fizzie, USB is having the same issue
11:00:45 <Vorpal> why do they keep inventing names like that for USB. Everybody just calls it USB2 or USB3
11:02:20 <nortti> Vorpal: have you ever looked at display resolution names
11:02:34 <fizzie> I thought the video capture interface had a separate query-capabilities thing, but maybe it just has the really awkward thing where you probe with VIDIOC_TRY_FMT to find how high you can go.
11:05:49 <Vorpal> nortti, yes. I tried to forget I did.
11:06:04 <Vorpal> nortti, it was okay when it was VGA and SVGA. Then it got absurd
11:06:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm I'm looking at the general capability thing so far only
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11:06:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, I want to use it anyway to find out why I have so many /dev/video*
11:07:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: How many is so many?
11:07:09 <Vorpal> one is output of some sort, since the android window compositor (called surfaceflinger) has it open
11:07:28 <Vorpal> /dev/video0 /dev/video11 /dev/video16 /dev/video20
11:07:28 <Vorpal> /dev/video1 /dev/video12 /dev/video2 /dev/video3
11:07:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, there
11:07:39 <fizzie> That's quite many.
11:08:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, here is the /sys info about them: http://sprunge.us/WCjS
11:08:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, video0 is the back camera, video1 is the user facing camera
11:08:41 <Vorpal> surfaceflinger uses video2 and video16
11:08:41 <fizzie> Which one is the one the window compositor has open?
11:08:43 <fizzie> Ah.
11:09:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have no idea what those virtual ones are
11:09:11 <nortti> Vorpal: what is wrong with WHUXGA (Wide Hexadecatuple Ultra Extender Graphics Array)?
11:09:53 <fizzie> One of them could be a V4L2 video overlay thing, I suppose. Though I'm not so sure why.
11:10:36 <itidus21> well WHUXGA, es un estndar de pantalla que puede soportar una resolucin mxima de 7680 4800 pixels, con una relacin de 16:10!
11:11:04 <itidus21> Un monitor de 7680 4320, podra considerarse tambin como un WHUXGA
11:11:09 <nortti> is that spanis?
11:11:16 <nortti> +h
11:11:18 <itidus21> yes but i don't understand it
11:11:22 <Vorpal> nortti, ouch
11:12:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, video11 driver is s5p-jpeg
11:12:22 <Vorpal> whatever that is
11:12:31 <Vorpal> same for video12
11:12:49 <Vorpal> video16 driver is s5p-tvout-tvif
11:13:02 <Vorpal> card is "Samsung TVOUT TV Interface"
11:13:14 <fizzie> Heh, messy.
11:13:24 <fizzie> There's only a video0 and video1 on the N900; I suppose corresponding to the front and back cameras.
11:13:35 <fizzie> I suppose the TV-out is handled differently.
11:13:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, video20 is s5p-tvout-vo, and "Samsung TVOUT Video Overlay"
11:14:03 <Vorpal> other than the tv out stuff, none of the devices reported useful "card" values
11:14:22 <Vorpal> either just the same as the driver name, or something similar
11:14:43 <itidus21> WHUXGA is a display standard that can support a resolution maximum of 7680 x 4800 pixels , with a ratio of 16:10. A monitor of 7680 4320, could also be considered as a WHUXGA
11:14:55 <itidus21> hmm google translate did really well on that
11:15:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/XWQe (haven't written code to decode capabilities yet)
11:15:57 <Vorpal> how did you stringify arguments in CPP now again
11:15:59 <Vorpal> was it ##?
11:16:02 <fizzie> #.
11:16:06 <fizzie> ## is token-pasting.
11:16:13 <Vorpal> #. or just #?
11:16:20 <fizzie> Just '#'.
11:16:22 <Vorpal> ah
11:16:27 <fizzie> (Curse my proper punctuation.)
11:18:51 <itidus21> english hasn't really prepared itself for having notations embedded within it
11:19:39 <nortti-> g 24
11:20:34 <nortti> g 23
11:20:40 <nortti> hmm
11:20:45 <Vorpal> huh, I guess the cross compiler header doesn't match my system header
11:20:53 <Vorpal> some defines give errors
11:21:20 <Vorpal> right, it is different, stripped of all comments for a start
11:21:20 <Vorpal> why
11:22:13 <itidus21> So Chuck says, ""Hello, world", and then he quotes me as saying "Chuck, I want you to print "Hello, world!"""
11:22:13 <fizzie> Optomized for compilation speed. :p
11:22:29 <fizzie> Those capabilities are kinda weird if I look at my own <linux/videodev2.h>. The 0x40000000 and 0x08 bits that most of them have don't match anything, and they all have V4L2_CAP_VBI_CAPTURE and V4L2_CAP_VBI_OUTPUT set, which sounds pretty strange.
11:22:30 <itidus21> but i think what i just said doesn't count as good writing
11:22:50 <Vorpal> my phone has a newer kernel than my desktop. But I guess the header might be older, from whatever oldest version the NDK supports
11:24:59 <fizzie> You're supposed to alternate between " and ' when nesting quotations in English, I believe.
11:25:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/cQTO
11:26:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's quite a few bits in the caps that don't match any of your defines, I suppose. (And it's slightly weird that all of them claim output (and most, overlay) capabilities.
11:26:20 <Vorpal> quite
11:26:21 <Vorpal> hrrm
11:26:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, what is overlay in v4l context?
11:26:51 <Vorpal> anyway I guess it might be that the driver claims that
11:27:09 <Vorpal> since the s3c-fimc seems to handle both input and output devices
11:27:41 <fizzie> It's a thing that can be used to write video into a graphics card's screen. A bit like XVideo except done at the V4L level.
11:27:47 <Vorpal> ah
11:28:05 <Vorpal> hm I need to test something then
11:29:11 <Vorpal> aha, playing a video with the built in video player makes the mediaserver process open video3
11:29:52 <Vorpal> I see no difference from the lsof point of view if I use full screen video or "floating window" video
11:30:23 <Vorpal> same thing happens when I open a video in vlc for android
11:30:42 <Vorpal> can't test floating window for it, since it lacks that feature
11:31:11 <fizzie> Well, the overlay API can specify a window position and size, so it should be pretty same for floating or fullscreen, if it's using that directly.
11:31:28 <Vorpal> probably
11:31:47 <Vorpal> both use hardware acceleration anyway, iirc vlc has an option to turn that off, might try that
11:32:13 <Vorpal> yeah it doesn't open video3 then
11:32:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I wonder what those high bits in the caps are
11:33:13 <Vorpal> actually...
11:33:31 <Vorpal> those are accounted for
11:33:41 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: That's quite a few bits in the caps that don't match any of your defines, I suppose. (And it's slightly weird that all of them claim output (and most, overlay) capabilities. <-- which device do you mean?
11:34:19 <fizzie> All of them, pretty much. 0x4000007d has 7 set bits but only four outputs.
11:34:37 <fizzie> And 0x2d has five set bits but only one decoded line.
11:34:48 <fizzie> s/five/four/ I can't count.
11:34:49 <Vorpal> hm
11:34:53 <Vorpal> true
11:35:06 <Vorpal> also the stuff doesn't match
11:35:32 <kallisti> itidus21: most notations aren't actually embedded in english
11:35:39 <Vorpal> 0x4000007d decodes to include V4L2_CAP_STREAMING, but that is 0x4000000 not 0x40000000
11:35:41 <Vorpal> what
11:35:45 <kallisti> the notion itself doesn't even make sense.
11:35:52 <kallisti> notations are seperate from english
11:35:58 <Vorpal> huh
11:36:07 <kallisti> you could say that ASCII isn't prepared for "notations"
11:36:09 <kallisti> but not english.
11:36:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: Yeah, I assumed the numbers in your other header are different.
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11:36:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, how does that work then
11:36:38 <Vorpal> why does it report V4L2_CAP_STREAMING
11:36:51 <fizzie> I mean, the one you're using to compile, as opposed to the one I was looking at.
11:36:59 <Vorpal> right
11:37:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, the one I'm using to compile matches my system one except a few defines are missing
11:37:22 <fizzie> That's kinda weird, then.
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11:37:35 <Vorpal> n
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11:37:36 <Vorpal> oh wait
11:37:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, printf typo
11:37:45 <Vorpal> the d at the end is wrong
11:37:50 <fizzie> Ohhhh.
11:37:50 <Vorpal> I did %xd
11:37:51 <Vorpal> XD
11:38:03 <fizzie> Well, that explains a lot. I *was* wondering about weird-looking numbers.
11:38:24 <Vorpal> I forgot that x wasn't a modifier for d
11:38:46 <fizzie> %od, for octo-decimal.
11:39:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, well %d as opposed to %u
11:39:10 <Vorpal> it would make sense
11:39:22 <Vorpal> then you could do signed and unsigned %x and %o
11:39:51 <fizzie> There's the %i alias for %d to muddy the waters more.
11:39:57 <Vorpal> hah
11:40:04 <fizzie> (And the subtle difference for %i and %d for *scanf.)
11:41:21 <Vorpal> what is that difference?
11:42:37 <Vorpal> now to figure out the various capture queries
11:43:34 <fizzie> %d is explicitly decimal, but %i is like base 0 for strtol, so you can type in 0123/0x123 for octal/hex.
11:44:34 <Vorpal> heh
11:45:07 <Vorpal> I tend to avoid the scanf family of functions, never liked that interface. And error handling is too much of a pain with it
11:45:32 <fizzie> It's quite bad. Especially for any line-oriented input, since it tends to leave the newline if things fail.
11:45:48 <fizzie> A getline-style thing followed by sscanf could work for something, though.
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11:46:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea how to control the flash btw?
11:46:20 <Vorpal> is that a v4l thing?
11:46:50 <fizzie> None whatsoever. It's not a standard-standard V4L thing, since it's not really camera-oriented at all. It could be some sort of a common extension, though.
11:46:57 <Vorpal> hm
11:47:44 <fizzie> Even the way of doing "take a picture" (i.e. get a single high-resolution frame) isn't really a V4L thing, though I suppose it can be just a "switch formats, read one frame, switch back" thing.
11:47:57 <fizzie> Also I don't know about focus control.
11:48:46 <Vorpal> hm
11:49:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, well that might be easier to figure out once I get the hang of the general v4l interface
11:51:45 <Vorpal> well I understand why android uses a user space daemon for camera access now. The API doesn't look multitask friendly at all
11:51:46 <fizzie> All your devices apparently deal with the V4L2_CAP_STREAMING way of IO, so you'll need to bother with that too. (You never read(2) anything; you just VIDIOC_REQBUFS some suitable buffers, then mmap them, and the device will communicate data that way.
11:52:44 <Vorpal> aha
11:52:49 <Vorpal> that explains the lack of read() then
11:52:53 <Vorpal> in the strace
11:53:14 <itidus21> <kallisti> itidus21: most notations aren't actually embedded in english -- <fizzie> #. <fizzie> ## is token-pasting. <Vorpal> #. or just #? <fizzie> Just '#'. <Vorpal> ah <fizzie> (Curse my proper punctuation.)
11:53:19 <itidus21> :P
11:54:21 <kallisti> what
11:54:26 <kallisti> I'm not actually paying attention
11:54:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway the mmap style of interface makes sense when you are dealing with 8MP images
11:55:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I like this page: http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/spec/x5950.htm
11:55:18 <fizzie> Heh.
11:55:34 <fizzie> It makes sense for video in general, thanks to having to move lots of frames.
11:55:38 <Vorpal> true
11:55:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, doesn't matter for a 320x280 or whatever webcam though
11:56:05 <Vorpal> I think I have such a device around somewhere
11:56:15 <Vorpal> one of those quickcam thingies (USB one)
11:56:17 <fizzie> 320x240 sounds more likely.
11:56:19 <itidus21> 256x240
11:56:20 <Vorpal> right
11:56:27 <itidus21> ^256x224
11:56:36 <Vorpal> it had a triangular base
11:56:40 <itidus21> 256x224 = ZGA
11:57:14 <fizzie> I have a very cheap USB webcam somewhere, but it does do 640x480 at least.
11:57:50 <itidus21> ZGA is when zzo finally decides to do a movie player for NES
11:59:03 <itidus21> oh its already been done
11:59:25 <Vorpal> well mine might do 640x480
11:59:26 <Vorpal> I don't know
11:59:53 <fizzie> Ohhhh, 640x360 is called "nHD" because it's one ninth of a 16:9 1080p frame. I wondered about the name at some point.
12:01:03 <fizzie> "HD" as a term is such a mess, too, since you never know whether it means 720p or 1080p.
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12:06:58 <Vorpal> "To query the current image format applications set the type field of a struct v4l2_format to V4L2_BUF_TYPE_VIDEO_CAPTURE and call the VIDIOC_G_FMT ioctl with a pointer to this structure. Drivers fill the struct v4l2_pix_format pix member of the fmt union."
12:07:01 <Vorpal> well that didn't work
12:07:02 <Vorpal> at all
12:07:08 <Vorpal> EINVAL
12:07:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, and I heard talk about 4096p in the future. Presumably HD as well
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12:08:59 <fizzie> Well, they have that "4K" 3840×2160 for which screens exist, and the proposed "8K" 7680×4320 thing.
12:09:12 <Vorpal> how is 3840×2160 4k?
12:10:09 <fizzie> I don't really know why it's called that.
12:10:15 <fizzie> QFHD is I guess the "proper name".
12:10:29 <fizzie> It's twice the "full-HD" 1920x1080 in both dimensions.
12:10:49 <itidus21> hd seems to mean twice the width resolution as a svga monitor, but the size of a tv and price of $5000 at first
12:11:17 <fizzie> If you count pixels, it's in the same ballpark as the 4K digital cinema formats.
12:11:24 <fizzie> Which aren't all 4096 pixels wide either.
12:12:30 <Vorpal> oh I see
12:12:32 <itidus21> i kinda feel sorry for all the people for whom a hdtv was luxury for a few years and along came cheaper
12:13:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, fun thing: the format query only works right after I close the camera app. Presumably the camera enters some sort of sleep mode very quickly
12:13:29 <Vorpal> how the hell do I deal with that...
12:13:37 <Vorpal> time to strace I guess
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12:14:12 <fizzie> Presumably it will stay open if you open the device and set a format, then keep doing stuff.
12:14:21 <Vorpal> hm
12:14:36 <fizzie> Anyway, even querying the current format will probably only give you the preview stream sizes.
12:15:06 <fizzie> At least on the N900, the same video0 interface is used for the preview video and the full-frame capture.
12:16:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure but I have to start somewhere
12:16:24 <Vorpal> and yes it game me some sizes that seemed reasonable for preview: 960x720
12:17:10 <Vorpal> hm strace on mediaserver didn't do what I intended... it gave I/O errors this time
12:18:04 <Vorpal> what the hell
12:18:29 <fizzie> I remember reading something about the long-ish (half a second?) shutter lag of the N900 coming from the lag of switching capture resolution from the viewfinder size to the full-frame size and resetting things in the process.
12:18:50 <fizzie> Apparently once it gets going, you can stream full-frame images at 10fps, assuming you had a place where to put them.
12:19:01 <Vorpal> fizzie, you know what, it doesn't ever call open. Yet the device is suddenly open
12:19:07 <Vorpal> any idea how else you could get an fd to a device
12:19:27 <fizzie> You could receive a fd over Unix socekts, but that sounds quite unlikely.
12:19:27 <Vorpal> because yes, according to /proc it is not there before but then it is open while the camera app is running
12:19:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, what system calls are involved in that?
12:20:50 <fizzie> Uh... depends on whether the socket is kept permanently open. If it is, then it's just a sendmsg/recvmsg at least code-wise.
12:20:55 <fizzie> Don't know what it is under the hood.
12:21:00 <Vorpal> hm
12:21:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, does strace follow thread forks?
12:21:47 <fizzie> I would assume so, but I'm not sure. It has that -f for following child processes from fork(2).
12:22:05 <Vorpal> right, this thing calls clone() with arguments to create threads
12:22:29 <Vorpal> it seems to use msgget at lot
12:22:38 <Vorpal> that is for ipc
12:23:31 <Vorpal> and recv with MSG_OOB
12:23:31 <fizzie> Yes. I don't know if there's some other IPC mechanism that can send credentials, other than Unix sockets. (And I'm not sure if I've ever seen that happen either, though I have a vague feeling that perhaps maybe once.)
12:23:44 <Vorpal> no recvmsg though
12:23:47 <Vorpal> maybe that isn't a syscall
12:24:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, maybe some of the android specific IPC thingies?
12:24:24 <Vorpal> there is that binder thing I guess
12:24:30 <Vorpal> not sure what syscalls that expose
12:26:46 <fizzie> I have vague recollections that Linux grouped a lot of socket syscalls into one, but also that strace unentangles them again.
12:27:04 <fizzie> If you see recv as standalone, probably so.
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12:28:48 <fizzie> MSG_OOB is a curious thing to do, even if it's not related. Can you see what kind of socket it is that it does that to?
12:29:03 <Vorpal> sec
12:29:57 <Vorpal> fizzie, socket ids are just fds right?
12:30:02 <fizzie> Yes.
12:30:19 <fizzie> (So you can get new fds from socket(2) too, but probably not the video device.)
12:30:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, and first argument of the syscall is the fd?
12:30:28 <fizzie> Of recv? Yes.
12:30:36 <Vorpal> then uh, either strace is broken or wtf
12:31:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, socket 11348704 once, then 11348700 and then other numbers of that magnitude
12:31:29 <Vorpal> and they don't match anything open
12:31:41 <Vorpal> that I can see at least
12:31:45 <fizzie> Uh.
12:31:48 <Vorpal> yeah
12:32:00 <fizzie> Systems nowadays are so complicated. :/
12:32:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm it seems that these are the ones strace gave I/O errors on
12:32:46 <Vorpal> specifically: "ptrace: umoven: I/O error"
12:33:12 <Vorpal> yes, doing &> instead of -o puts that error inside the log of those calls
12:33:24 <Vorpal> I wonder what is wrong
12:34:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, none of the other arguments it recorded look relevant at all
12:34:35 <Vorpal> or what is the value of MSG_OOB?
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12:35:05 <Vorpal> 1
12:35:08 <Vorpal> nope doesn't help
12:37:26 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea what /dev/ashmem is?
12:37:32 <Vorpal> this thing has a lot of copies of that open
12:37:34 <Vorpal> whatever it is
12:38:24 <fizzie> http://elinux.org/Android_Kernel_Features says it's "similar to POSIX SHM but with different behavior and sporting a simpler file-based API".
12:39:24 <Vorpal> "As a remedy the present version of the V4L2 API relaxed the concept of device types with specific names and minor numbers. For compatibility with old applications drivers must still register different minor numbers to assign a default function to the device. But if related functions are supported by the driver they must be available under all registered minor numbers. The desired function can be select
12:39:24 <Vorpal> ed after opening the device as described in Chapter 4."
12:39:34 <Vorpal> that could explain why everything reported every feature
12:39:43 <fizzie> Yes.
12:40:03 <fizzie> Also it doesn't sound impossible that the binder thing is responsible for some of the weirdness.
12:40:08 <Vorpal> sure
12:40:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, iirc binder has been merged in to vanilla as of 3.4 or 3.5 or some such
12:40:35 <Vorpal> probably under staging drivers or such
12:41:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway if every device support every feature, then why does /dev/video0 and /dev/video1 both correspond to the same driver and presumably controller device, but represent different cameras
12:43:05 <fizzie> I suppose a single driver can still have different minor numbers that expose different cameras. It just says "if related functions are supported"; capturing from different cameras aren't so related.
12:43:22 <Vorpal> hm
12:43:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm there is /dev/binder opened as fd 3, and there were a lot of ioctls done on that
12:44:12 <Vorpal> apart from that 78 and 80. Which were the cameras that were never opened?
12:44:23 <fizzie> In the old way you used to have /dev/video0 and /dev/vbi0 and whatnot related to the same card (with different minor numbers), and I suppose what your quotation means is just that you can nowadays do all that on the /dev/video0.
12:44:30 <Sgeo_> I feel like I'm not smart enough to see a third option between global variables and OO
12:44:34 <Sgeo_> At least in TCL
12:44:35 <Vorpal> oh wait, 80 was the camera
12:44:36 <Vorpal> not 78
12:44:39 <Vorpal> 78 was ashmem
12:45:03 <Vorpal> Sgeo_, monads?
12:45:10 <Vorpal> (I don't know if you can do that)
12:45:12 <fizzie> I don't know anything about binder, so I don't know if it could cause a sneaky file-opening.
12:45:21 <Vorpal> (given that it is tcl, you probably could emulate it)
12:45:28 <fizzie> $ ls -l /dev/{vbi,video}*
12:45:28 <fizzie> crw-rw----+ 1 root video 81, 1 2012-07-28 00:05 /dev/vbi0
12:45:28 <fizzie> crw-rw----+ 1 root video 81, 0 2012-07-28 00:05 /dev/video0
12:45:33 <fizzie> These are actually the same device.
12:45:47 <fizzie> Even though they have different minor numbers.
12:46:10 <fizzie> Incidentally, what was that '+' there in the mode?
12:47:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, ACL I think? Maybe?
12:47:29 <Vorpal> not sure
12:47:34 <Vorpal> where is that on
12:47:35 <fizzie> That would make sense.
12:47:38 <fizzie> On this desktop.
12:47:42 <Vorpal> hm okay
12:47:47 <Vorpal> does tmpfs even do ACL?
12:47:57 <Vorpal> check mount to see if ACL is mentionedf
12:48:00 <Vorpal> mentioned*
12:48:07 <Vorpal> or anything else of that sort
12:48:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, could perhaps be selinux or similar as well
12:49:04 <Vorpal> well the binder.h file has an enum value called TF_ACCEPT_FDS
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12:49:27 <Taneb> Hello
12:50:32 <fizzie> Vorpal: Posix ACLs were a good guess, there's an extra "user:fis:rw-" entry according to getfacl. (No idea what sets that up.)
12:50:51 <Vorpal> fizzie, consolekit I would /guess/
12:50:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, which distro?
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12:51:10 <Vorpal> elliott, hi
12:51:14 <elliott> hello
12:51:14 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
12:51:40 <fizzie> Vorpal: Some not too new Ubuntu.
12:51:54 <Vorpal> hm okay
12:52:03 <Vorpal> my ubuntu doesn't do that for other devices at least
12:52:12 <Vorpal> don't have any video* on it
12:52:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, 10.04?
12:52:49 <fizzie> (This is an old PCI analog-TV card that I don't use for anything at all.)
12:53:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, well it looks like it might be possible to send fds over binder
12:53:44 <Vorpal> in replies at least
12:53:50 <Vorpal> can't really find any docs on it
12:55:32 <fizzie> (Away a while.)
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13:13:32 <fizzie> http://www.androidenea.com/2010/03/share-memory-using-ashmem-and-binder-in.html "The solution is to share the file descriptor with the binder since the binder has special functions that can be used to transfer file descriptors over it's interface."
13:13:42 <fizzie> (It's for how to share ashmem blocks between processes.)
13:13:45 <fizzie> I guess it could be that.
13:15:02 <Vorpal> hm
13:15:08 <Vorpal> I wonder where that device was opened then
13:15:24 <Vorpal> since it isn't open in the background
13:17:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea how to find out which groups a running process is a member of?
13:17:22 <Vorpal> my guess is that perhaps mediaserver doesn't have the proper permissions to open /dev/video0 directly
13:18:19 <fizzie> It's in /proc/<pid>/status.
13:18:27 <fizzie> "Gid" and "Groups" for the supplementary groups list.
13:18:51 <fizzie> ("Gid" list is the usual suspects, real/effective/saved/fs.)
13:18:52 <Vorpal> yeah, wrong user and wrong groups for the file
13:19:15 <Vorpal> annoying that android doesn't have /etc/passwd
13:19:25 <Vorpal> hard to map these values to anything meaningful
13:19:48 <Vorpal> mediaserver is in 8 different groups
13:21:45 <fizzie> And speaking of ACLs in /dev, I've got '+'s for /dev/{kvm,rfkill,sg3,sr0,vbi0,video0}.
13:21:52 <Vorpal> he
13:21:53 <Vorpal> heh*
13:22:05 <Vorpal> oh I have that for sr0
13:22:31 <Vorpal> and a few more
13:22:47 <fizzie> (sg3 is the sg corresponding to sr0 here.)
13:22:51 <Vorpal> adsp, audio, dsp, mixer, rfkill, sequencer, sequencer2, sr0
13:23:09 <Vorpal> not for sg* though
13:24:00 <fizzie> Oh, right, ~everything in /dev/snd/ too. (Only looked at top level, don't have any audio things there apparently.)
13:24:32 <Vorpal> let me check recursively
13:25:20 <Vorpal> everything in /dev/snd, some stuff in /dev/input (far from all) and /dev/dri/card0
13:25:42 <Vorpal> and in /dev/input those are event9 to event12
13:25:46 <Vorpal> that have those
13:25:53 <Vorpal> what are /dev/input/event* btw?
13:26:38 <Vorpal> arvid@dragon ~ $ LC_ALL=C getfacl /dev/dri/card0
13:26:39 <Vorpal> getfacl: Removing leading '/' from absolute path names
13:26:39 <Vorpal> # file: dev/dri/card0
13:26:43 <Vorpal> why does it do that?
13:27:43 <fizzie> /dev/input/event* are the generic (as opposed to type-specific, like js/mouse/whatever) interface to input devices, though all kinds of things seem to end up as input devices these days.
13:27:53 <Vorpal> -p, --absolute-names
13:27:53 <Vorpal> Do not strip leading slash characters (`/'). The default behavior is to strip leading slash characters.
13:27:58 <Vorpal> okay that doesn't help...
13:28:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, ah
13:28:04 <fizzie> Power buttons and whatnot.
13:28:39 <Vorpal> fizzie, those are ACPI things
13:28:59 <fizzie> /sys/class/input/event0 here is /sys/devices/LNXSYSTM:00/device:00/PNP0C0C:00/input/input0/event0 for example.
13:29:06 <fizzie> Don't know what comes in that way.
13:29:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, how did you figure out that mapping?
13:29:53 <Vorpal> oh wait
13:29:54 <Vorpal> right
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13:30:14 <Vorpal> I was looking under /sys/dev/char and couldn't find the device
13:30:19 <Vorpal> why is /sys/dev/char incomplete
13:33:33 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ZbhM -- two power buttons for some reason.
13:34:14 <fizzie> And the keyboard has two event devices for it.
13:35:12 <fizzie> Still, that's quite a short list by modern standards; compare the laptop: http://sprunge.us/bSfF
13:36:43 <fizzie> There's things like event6 "BisonCam, NB Pro", "usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.6/button" even though the (built-in) webcam doesn't have any sort of button exposed.
13:38:09 <fizzie> I don't know what all those "HDMI/DP,pcm=X" EV_SW (switch) type things are either.
13:38:23 <Vorpal> hm
13:38:55 <Vorpal> installing lsinput now
13:39:17 <Vorpal> $ sudo lsinput
13:39:18 <Vorpal> /dev/input/event0
13:39:18 <Vorpal> protocol version mismatch (expected 65536, got 65537)
13:39:21 <Vorpal> well that was interesting
13:39:26 <fizzie> Heh.
13:39:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, I have a custom kernel though to work around some issues with wifi monitor mode
13:39:51 <Vorpal> so I guess that is it
13:47:55 <fizzie> I don't know what that second device of the keyboard is doing. 'input-events' dumping says all regular keypresses come in via the first one. And the second one has EV_REL EV_ABS (relative and absolute motion events) listed in the types, which sounds a bit strange for a keyboard.
13:48:55 <fizzie> Oh, the multimedia keys use the other device.
13:51:20 <Vorpal> heh
13:51:44 <Vorpal> fizzie, multimedia keys are often done by ACPI iirc
13:55:37 <fizzie> This is a separate USB keyboard, though.
13:55:55 <Vorpal> fizzie, interesting note: there is no speed difference between grep "constant string" and grep -F "constant string", but there is a large if you add -i to those
13:56:03 <Vorpal> grep -Fi is much faster than grep -i
13:56:31 <Vorpal> (checked by grep -Ri / grep -RFi on kernel sources)
13:57:39 <fizzie> According to lsusb, the keyboard is also a mouse: http://sprunge.us/QEiE
13:59:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, fancy keyboard
14:00:11 <fizzie> Based on matching the lsusb bInterfaceNumber and sysfs stuff, it's the mouse that is reporting all the multimedia key events.
14:00:37 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a good reason.
14:02:36 <Vorpal> heh
14:09:19 <Vorpal> brb
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14:22:43 <elliott> hi, ais523
14:39:22 <Vorpal> back
14:42:16 <Taneb> Is it bad that I've just figured out how to make the thingy on the left hand side of the screen on Ubuntu appear?
14:44:56 <Vorpal> Taneb, what are you talking about?
14:45:50 <fizzie> The thing that's in Unity, I suppose.
14:46:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unity_5.12_on_Ubuntu_12.04.png
14:46:07 <fizzie> That thing.
14:47:00 <Taneb> Yeah
14:47:29 <fizzie> I don't know how to make it appear either, but it might be different if you've actually been using it.
14:48:00 <Taneb> Yeah, Ubuntu's my primary OS
14:48:29 <Vorpal> ah
14:48:43 <fizzie> It's mine, too, but despite all their efforts, Unity != Ubuntu quite yet.
14:49:01 <Vorpal> I'm going xubuntu on next LTS release
14:49:13 <Taneb> And I can't really be bothered to switch to GNOME or X or CLI or whatever
14:49:26 <Vorpal> well the new LTS is out, but not for upgrading from last LTS yet
14:49:32 <elliott> Taneb: you've used unity for months and only now figure out how to launch applications from it?
14:49:46 <Vorpal> it won't notify me about that until the first point release of the new LTS
14:49:47 <Taneb> elliott, nah, I just used to press flag to bring the whole thing up
14:50:22 <elliott> flag
14:50:31 <Taneb> Windows key
14:50:37 <Taneb> It's got a picture of a flag on it
14:50:45 <Taneb> Preview of program I'm writing: S I I (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (K (S (S K K))) K)))) (K K))))) (S (K S) (S (K (S ( K S))) (S (K K)))))))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) S)) (K (S (K S) (S (K (S ( K S))) (S (K K))))))) (K I) I
14:51:23 <Taneb> This one, however, will be EFFICIENT ish
14:51:35 <Taneb> Actually, it probably won't be
14:54:56 <nortti> Taneb: pure SKI or LazyK? also what it does?
14:55:06 <Taneb> nortti, pure SKI
14:55:19 <Taneb> Infinite list of fibonacci numbers, I hope
14:56:38 <Taneb> brb
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14:58:25 <Taneb> Back
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15:06:14 <Taneb> I've got some pretty epic type errors
15:06:23 <Taneb> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
15:06:23 <Taneb> a0
15:06:23 <Taneb> =
15:06:23 <Taneb> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:24 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0
15:06:26 <Taneb> Expected type: (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:28 <Taneb> -> (a0 -> a0) -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0)
15:06:30 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0
15:06:32 <Taneb> Actual type: (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:34 <Taneb> -> (a0 -> a0) -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0)
15:06:36 <Taneb> -> (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:38 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:40 <Taneb> -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0)
15:06:42 <Taneb> -> a0
15:06:44 <Taneb> In the first argument of `k', namely `s'
15:06:46 <Taneb> In the first argument of `s', namely `(k s)'
15:06:48 <Taneb> I should really keep my working
15:10:25 <kallisti> elliott: what does black pudding taste like
15:10:36 <kmc> meat
15:10:52 <kallisti> okay
15:11:05 <elliott> i have no intentions of ever tasting black pudding
15:11:18 <kallisti> because it looks like it would taste like disgusting cooked congealed blood with random shit stuffed in it.
15:11:31 <kallisti> but maybe I'm mistaken
15:11:37 <ais523> Taneb: SKI doesn't type in Hindley-Milner
15:11:37 <lambdabot> ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:11:43 <ais523> @messages
15:11:43 <lambdabot> elliott said 1d 1h 37m ago: <bhaak> ais is always surprising <bhaak> i wish i had a twisted mind like his at my disposal <bhaak> like a brain-in-a-jar or something like that
15:11:48 <Taneb> ais523, it does if you're insane
15:12:09 * kallisti made the Y combinator in Haskell with the help of unsafe coerces
15:12:23 * Taneb made a factorial program based on that
15:12:28 <Taneb> Maybe you've seen it
15:12:35 <elliott> ais523: hi
15:12:39 <ais523> hi elliott
15:12:45 <ais523> kallisti: then you're not really in Hindley-Milner any more
15:12:51 <kallisti> ais523: right
15:13:00 <kallisti> but I was still surprised that GHC's runtime knew what to do with my code.
15:13:25 <Taneb> kallisti, you've got exactly the opposite mindset to me
15:13:40 <Taneb> I'm surprised when it core-dumps when I try to use 10 as a function
15:13:50 <ais523> why is that surprising at all?
15:14:12 <ais523> if you're unsafely coercing things, you'd expect trying to use 10 as a function to attempt to call a function in the eleventh memory location
15:14:34 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure how unsafeCoerce works
15:14:36 <Taneb> It's kinda magic to me
15:14:42 <elliott> pretty sure unsafeCoerce 10 :: functiontype will interpret 10 :: Integer
15:14:43 <elliott> not :: Int
15:14:46 <kallisti> it does absolutely nothing
15:14:52 <elliott> so it'll be a pointer still
15:14:56 <ais523> elliott: ah, OK
15:15:06 <ais523> it'll attempt to call a block of memory, as a function, that contains a bignum representation of 10
15:15:17 <ais523> huh, couldn't you use that mechanism to run arbitrary asm
15:15:29 <elliott> ais523: functoins are more than just funptrs, obviously.
15:15:30 <elliott> closures
15:15:36 <kallisti> it needs to be in the same format
15:15:36 <Taneb> Are you INSANE ENOUGH TOO!?
15:15:39 <ais523> well, OK
15:15:40 <elliott> i would expect it to just give an RTS error
15:15:41 <kallisti> as other STG closures
15:15:45 <elliott> iirc that case is handled
15:15:55 <ais523> but you can probably find a block of memory that's a closure/bignum polyglot
15:16:11 <ais523> because a good bignum representation will use pretty much every possible byte sequence
15:16:21 <kallisti> seems possible
15:16:27 <elliott> ais523: only if you don't understand how stg works
15:16:40 <elliott> there is a standard object format in GHC
15:17:01 <kallisti> I guess the byte sequence would need to point at things that /actually/ exist though
15:17:04 <kallisti> that would be the tricky part
15:17:58 <kallisti> isn't there more than one level of indirection?
15:18:15 <kallisti> the first section of the closure points to a structure that contains all the free variables.
15:19:40 <kmc> no
15:19:45 <kmc> the first word in a closure points to the info table
15:19:50 <kmc> the rest of the words *are* the free variables
15:20:07 <kallisti> ah okay
15:20:19 <kallisti> and the info table contains the function pointer?
15:20:36 <kmc> yes
15:20:50 <kmc> with the tables next to code optimization, the info table pointer is the function pointer
15:20:56 <kmc> and the info table itself appears immediately before the function
15:21:00 <kallisti> serves me right for only half-assedly reading papers about STF.
15:21:02 <kallisti> *G
15:21:09 <kmc> because jumping to that function is by far the most common operation you do with the info ptr
15:21:33 <kallisti> ah right
15:21:47 <kallisti> so the function pointer is basically the first field of the info table.
15:22:19 <kallisti> and C cast magic makes it so that you can jump to the function pointer without the extra level of indirection.
15:22:25 <kallisti> er, not C
15:22:26 <kallisti> neverminde
15:22:32 <kallisti> uh, computer magic
15:22:35 <kallisti> yes.
15:22:42 <kmc> if the function pointer is the first field of the info table, you still need to dereference twice
15:22:57 <kmc> with tables next to code, the info table appears immediately before the function code in memory
15:22:57 <kallisti> ah, indeed.
15:23:17 <kmc> and the closures store a pointer to that function code
15:23:29 <kmc> so that calling the function is accomplished through a single indirect jump
15:23:44 <kmc> and doing other things with the info table requires that you subtract the table size from the function pointer
15:23:57 <kmc> this is a weird thing to do, interleaving data and code
15:24:01 <kmc> some tools like LLVM have trouble with it
15:24:03 <kallisti> ah I see
15:24:05 <kmc> but it makes sense
15:24:21 <kmc> if you disassemble a GHC produced binary you will see these tables in the .text segment
15:26:17 <kallisti> it's not weird, it's just an efficient memory layout.
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15:27:16 <nortti> what is wrong with this code?
15:27:17 <nortti> #define ML_GETINT(x) \
15:27:17 <nortti> ptr = strtok(NULL, " "); if(!ptr) break; \
15:27:17 <nortti> mmt.##x = atoi(ptr);
15:27:20 <nortti> ML_GETINT(HDisplay);
15:27:43 <nortti> I get error: error: pasting "." and "HDisplay" does not give a valid preprocessing token
15:28:00 <kallisti> what on earth is ##x
15:28:05 <kmc> i think you don't want paste there
15:28:09 <kmc> just mmt.x
15:28:24 <nortti> it is part of svgalib code
15:28:47 <kmc> kallisti: to preprocess «foo##bar», you preprocess foo and bar, and then concatencate the results into a single token
15:29:06 <kmc> used to e.g. prefix variable names with some standard prefix within a macro
15:29:52 <kallisti> ah. I thought CPP was just simple text substition. didn't realize it worked at a token level.
15:30:17 <kmc> yeah, it won't substitute within a single word
15:30:27 <kmc> if you #define foo to something, a variable named foobar is left alone
15:31:02 * kallisti learns something new about C everytime it's brought up .
15:31:17 <kallisti> probably because I haven't read a legitimate resource on it.
15:31:35 <kallisti> just countless shitty C tutorials that appear prominently on google searches.
15:31:48 <fizzie> I've seen some other piece of code use token-pasting for member access, though. Perhaps it has worked in one compiler or another.
15:33:20 <nortti> umh. src/vgamisc.c:50: static void *__svgalib_linearframebuffer; src/vgabg.h:30: void *__svgalib_linearframebuffer;
15:33:37 <nortti> how do they ever get svgalib to compile?
15:33:46 <fizzie> Perhaps they don't.
15:33:52 <fizzie> I haven't seen much svgalib users lately.
15:35:14 <fizzie> "However, two tokens that don't together form a valid token cannot be pasted together. For example, you cannot concatenate x with + in either order. If you try, the preprocessor issues a warning and emits the two tokens. Whether it puts white space between the tokens is undefined. It is common to find unnecessary uses of `##' in complex macros. If you get this warning, it is likely that you ...
15:35:20 <fizzie> ... can simply remove the `##'."
15:35:25 <fizzie> (GCC's CPP's manual.)
15:36:14 <fizzie> I suppose spurious ##s have been mostly used with compilers that are silent and just produce the two tokens.
15:37:36 <fizzie> "I've just installed gcc 3.2.2 and I get the warning [in question] when compiling code that worked just fine with 2.95.3." Yeah.
15:37:51 <nortti> ...
15:38:23 <nortti> getting svgalib to compile with gcc 4.5 is huge pain in the ass
15:38:40 <fizzie> That is not a terrible surprise.
15:38:47 <fizzie> Perhaps it would compile just fine with gcc 2.95.
15:39:16 <fizzie> Are you sure someone hasn't already done the required pain, though? People do the strangest things.
15:39:43 <nortti> I am not going to compile old gcc with new gcc so I can compile old gcc again this time with the broken old gcc new gcc produced
15:40:12 <fizzie> There's e.g. a file called "svgalib-1.9.19-gcc4.patch" in the Gentoo svgalib ebuild.
15:41:03 <nortti> how do I access gentoo ebuild with slitaz?
15:41:24 <fizzie> http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/media-libs/svgalib/files/ for example.
15:41:42 <fizzie> Though interestingly I'm not seeing the gcc-4 patch there.
15:41:50 <fizzie> (The changelog promised one.)
15:41:56 <fizzie> Which svgalib you're compiling, anyway?
15:42:26 <nortti> the newest one, 1.4.3
15:42:33 <fizzie> Well, there you go.
15:42:39 <fizzie> You could try 1.9.25.
15:43:04 <fizzie> Though it's going to be different and all that.
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16:14:05 <Taneb> Hello!
16:14:20 <Vorpal> nortti, what does svgalib even do?
16:15:04 <Vorpal> <nortti> I am not going to compile old gcc with new gcc so I can compile old gcc again this time with the broken old gcc new gcc produced <-- I have run into that problem when doing a gcc 3.x cross compiler
16:15:17 <Vorpal> had to compile gcc 3.x native with gcc 4.1 or something like that first
16:15:31 <Vorpal> and had to build gcc 4.1 with 4.6 which was what my system had
16:27:46 <elliott> did they ever fix the thing in minecraft where
16:27:50 <elliott> if you use a bed in the nether it just explodes
16:27:55 <elliott> please say no
16:29:20 <Taneb> I don't think that was a thing that was to be fixed
16:29:37 <Vorpal> elliott, that is a feature, not a bug
16:29:45 <Vorpal> elliott, you are not supposed to be able to sleep in the nether
16:35:38 <elliott> well yes
16:35:44 <elliott> i mean "fix" as in "make less silly"
16:36:13 <Vorpal> how would you make it less silly?
16:36:18 <Vorpal> an error message?
16:36:22 <elliott> idk
16:36:26 <elliott> an explosion is pretty silly!!!
16:36:40 <Vorpal> yeah they should totally remove TNT and creepers too
16:37:04 <Taneb> I'm sort of on the fence on this issue
16:37:10 <Taneb> Exploding beds is rather silly
16:37:44 <Taneb> But it's more fun than a message saying "The eery whispers trapped beneath your pillow won't let you sleep"
16:37:52 <Vorpal> I don't think it is all that silly for sleeping in the nether. Better than an arbitrary "you can't rest here"
16:38:51 <Vorpal> speaking of which, does vanilla minecraft still do "you can't sleep while there are monsters nearby"?
16:39:03 <Taneb> I don't think so?
16:39:07 <Vorpal> hm okay
16:39:10 <Vorpal> what does it do instead
16:39:27 <Taneb> ???
16:39:31 <Taneb> I can't test it out atm
16:39:43 <Taneb> New computer, still setting up
16:39:51 <Taneb> I haven't got Java installed yet
16:40:11 <Vorpal> I play with a mod called Somnia that basically simulates the entire night (but without rendering it and trying to run the simulation as fast as possible, so generally it takes less than half a minute to simulate an entire night, or day)
16:40:14 <elliott> beds are cheaper than tnt right
16:40:38 <Vorpal> elliott, but the issue is, you will be at the centre of the explosion
16:40:44 <Vorpal> unlike with TNT where you can be at a distance
16:40:54 <elliott> you can activate them from a fair range i think
16:41:20 <Vorpal> I believe it moves you to the bed first though
16:41:28 <Vorpal> try it out though, I don't know for sure
16:42:32 <Vorpal> why must iptables be so complicated
16:42:56 <Vorpal> like, does anyone know what a match on !lo+ means for the in-interface value?
16:43:09 <Vorpal> I guess "not lo+" but I don't know what the + does to "lo"
16:43:09 <Taneb> You could say "Oi, Phantom_Hoover! Go lie down on that bed there! I wanna test whether this explosion prevention mechanism works or not!"
16:43:18 <Taneb> brb
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16:44:05 <Vorpal> Ease of use and flexibility: You can't have both
16:45:06 <Vorpal> or well, lets say you can't have both something that is easy to master and also flexible. And making something that is easy to use and flexible is not easy
16:45:27 <Vorpal> s/both something that is/something that is both/
16:45:54 <ion> Someone mistyped os:timestamp/0 as os:timestampe/0. I got kickse out of that.
16:46:08 <Vorpal> ion, is that erlang?
16:46:13 <ion> yeah
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16:46:32 <Vorpal> ion, not in my erl -man os?
16:46:32 <oklopol> ye old timestampes of os
16:46:35 <Vorpal> which version has that
16:46:51 <Vorpal> I might have forgot to keep up-to-date on it
16:47:00 <ion> I have Erlang R14B04 (erts-5.8.5) [source] [64-bit] [smp:4:4] [rq:4] [async-threads:0] [kernel-poll:false]
16:47:09 <ion> Probably not up do date at all, it’s the Ubuntu 12.04 package.
16:47:22 <Vorpal> R14B03 here
16:47:24 <ion> (and it does have timestampe in -man os)
16:47:31 <Vorpal> looks like R15B01 is out
16:48:24 <Vorpal> ion, I suspect that they will deprecate the typo when they find it, then keep it around for about 2 major versions for compatibility
16:48:28 <Taneb> Back
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16:52:54 <Vorpal> ion, what are you writing in erlang?
16:53:16 <ion> vorpal: Not anything at the moment.
16:53:37 <ion> Actually, not anything for a long time.
16:53:45 <Vorpal> ion, hm why is my os:timestamp/0 correctly spelled in R14B03 then if your R14B04 is typoed
16:54:55 <ion> vorpal: Ah, we both seem to have misunderstood each other. :-) I thought you knew i was kidding when i said -man os has “timestampe” and i thought you were continuing the joke when you said they’ll keep it for compatibility.
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16:57:47 <Vorpal> ion, where was it typoed then?
16:57:57 <ion> on IRC
16:57:59 <Vorpal> oh
16:58:13 <Vorpal> ion, anyway if they did typo the function name they would seriously keep it around like that
16:58:22 <ion> sure
16:58:34 <elliott> referer
16:58:43 <ion> :-)
16:58:46 <Vorpal> I'm not kidding, I remember them doing that for something around R12 or R11
16:58:57 <Vorpal> elliott, ?
16:59:05 <ion> vorpal: Yes, i know you’re not kidding. :-)
16:59:06 <Vorpal> oh right
16:59:10 <ion> vorpal: (HTTP)
16:59:12 <Vorpal> elliott, which standard was that?
16:59:15 <Vorpal> right
16:59:58 <ion> That typo has saved the world a countless amount of bandwidth over the years.
17:02:06 <Vorpal> hah
17:02:29 <Vorpal> can we estimate the number of HTTP requests world wide per time unit in any way
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17:02:43 <Vorpal> even a low estimate would be interesting
17:03:04 <Vorpal> how many people with internet is there approx?
17:04:19 <elliott> something like a billion, IIRC
17:04:47 <Vorpal> hm estimated in 2010 to be 35% in 2011 is the best number I can find
17:05:00 <Vorpal> out of approx 7 billion
17:05:13 <Vorpal> so 2.45 billion then
17:06:08 <Vorpal> since background stuff (i.e. web services and similar) won't use referer most of the time probably we can discount such stuff
17:06:50 <Vorpal> elliott, <img> and such causes referer right?
17:07:02 <elliott> idk, maybe
17:07:05 <elliott> i think so
17:07:07 <Vorpal> right
17:07:10 <elliott> i think that's how you do hotlink prevention
17:07:17 <Vorpal> ah yes
17:07:59 <nortti> 19:14 < Vorpal> nortti, what does svgalib even do? // svgalib provides programs a way to set and use (s)vga video modes
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17:08:39 <Vorpal> so lets say 2 billion people to be on the safe side. Each visiting 5 pages per day (low arbitrary number). None of them with referer. Each having maybe 10 images, javascripts, css files and so on. Then we get 2 billion * 10
17:08:58 <Vorpal> billion is 10^9 in English right?
17:09:26 <Vorpal> right
17:09:49 <itidus21> it's better to waste the internet bandwidth by running it inefficiently than letting criminals control it
17:09:53 <Vorpal> `frink 10^9*5*2 bytes to gigabytes
17:10:04 <HackEgo> ​[]
17:10:07 <Vorpal> itidus21, completely unrelated to current discussion
17:10:08 <Vorpal> what
17:10:14 <Vorpal> elliott, how do I use frink
17:10:38 <Vorpal> also *10 not *2
17:10:41 <oklopol> "10^9*5*2 bytes to gigabytes"
17:10:55 <Vorpal> oh quotes?
17:10:59 <oklopol> good one
17:10:59 <Vorpal> `frink "10^9*5*10 bytes to gigabytes"
17:11:00 <oklopol> no
17:11:01 <itidus21> ok, well for instance, i reload say 40 pages when i restart.. often on account of firefox memory leaks
17:11:06 <oklopol> i just found it funny
17:11:07 <HackEgo> 10^9*5*10 bytes to gigabytes
17:11:20 <Vorpal> I don't remember the syntax for frink
17:11:24 <itidus21> so.. i waste bandwidth for convenience
17:11:27 <elliott> Vorpal: hm?
17:11:28 <elliott> use ->, not to
17:11:30 <oklopol> i have never heard of fronk
17:11:30 <Vorpal> oh
17:11:33 <oklopol> frink neither
17:11:40 <Vorpal> elliott, WOLFRAM ALPHA WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD ME!
17:11:42 <nortti> cc -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fomit-frame-pointer -O2 -fno-strength-reduce -pipe -I../include -L../sharedlib -s -o restorefont restorefont.o -lvga -lm
17:11:45 <nortti> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lvga
17:11:46 <Vorpal> `frink 10^9*5*10 bytes -> gigabytes
17:11:55 <HackEgo> 50
17:11:59 <nortti> shouldn't -lvga be before sourcw file?
17:12:02 <oklopol> shocking!!
17:12:03 <Vorpal> so 50 gb per day in this case
17:12:13 <Vorpal> and that is probably a low count
17:12:23 <Vorpal> in fact it is probably a very low count
17:12:27 <oklopol> apparently 50 billion in billions is 50
17:12:53 <oklopol> we need to inform the ministry of numbers
17:13:11 <Vorpal> `frink 10^9*5*10 bytes -> gibibytes
17:13:17 <Vorpal> is more interesting
17:13:21 <HackEgo> 48828125/1048576 (approx. 46.566128730773926)
17:13:40 <Vorpal> oklopol, it turns out it is in fact ~46.57
17:13:40 <oklopol> i think that's far less interesting
17:14:07 <Vorpal> anyway on the whole it doesn't save much
17:14:17 <oklopol> the ministry of numbers would be all like meh dude that's boring
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17:15:26 <Taneb> Hello
17:16:41 <fizzie> nortti: By convention, libraries after sources, because some linkers process command line left-to-right, and when encountering a "-lfoo" will only pull out from libfoo.a objects that resolve any as-yet unresolved symbols; so if you -lfoo first, nothing will get taken from the library.
17:17:32 <Vorpal> fizzie, do you need to start with the file containing main first then?
17:17:37 <Vorpal> as opposed to some other object file
17:17:49 <Vorpal> or is this just for libraries?
17:18:52 <Vorpal> btw I remember having to do -lx -ly -lx style sometime to resolve some complex semi-circular thing, since it didn't pull the entire libx.a, just what was needed from it
17:18:59 <Vorpal> and liby.a needed some other parts
17:19:15 <Vorpal> might not have been on a *nix system
17:19:17 <Vorpal> don't remember
17:19:44 <Vorpal> (and yes, liby was only pulled in from libx)
17:20:01 <fizzie> Just for libraries. If you give an object file, those tools will generally assume you want to link it regardless.
17:25:01 <fizzie> http://c-faq.com/lib/libsearch.html
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18:47:13 <Taneb> Hello
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18:48:32 <Taneb> Change of plans, bye
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19:05:16 <oerjan> 23:15:36: <shachaf> kmc: 16:15 <nobdraisentone> How can I convert `Maybe a` to `IO ()`?
19:05:19 <oerjan> 23:15:40: <shachaf> Refreshing, isn't it?
19:05:22 <oerjan> word.
19:08:26 <elliott> that's a good one
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19:20:29 <pikhq> Pulseaudio: the audio breaking daemon.
19:23:23 <fizzie> The "pulse" in the name refers to the fact that if you're exceedingly lucky, you might get short "pulses" of working audio when the planets align. (That said, this is a PulseAudio system and it has no trouble with the audio part either.)
19:23:49 <pikhq> I recently had a weird problem: mpd and only mpd could play audio.
19:23:56 <pikhq> I fixed it by removing pulseaudio.
19:24:38 <fizzie> I have PulseAudio in my phone, too. (A sad state of affairs?)
19:31:45 <fizzie> Speaking of audio, I'd also like if the laptop could partake in producing sound out of the stereo system, and there's an unused coax s/pdif wire already in cable channels between the laptop (approx) and the stereo... but the laptop does digital audio only via a 3.5mm jack that has a TOSLINK led behind the electric parts. The only TOSLINK cable I have is just 1m; and anyway from what I hear ...
19:31:51 <fizzie> ... TOSLINK cables only go up to about 5m well, and break if bent too sharply.
19:32:47 <fizzie> Last I looked at doing general-purpose network audio, things seemed very messy. Especially if Windows was involved.
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19:42:00 <shachaf> elliott: Look, an SO question! http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11707171/haskell-sub-typeclass-requires-undecidableinstances
19:42:04 <shachaf> I guess it's already been answered by now.
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20:20:13 <zzo38> Which (non-interactive) assemblers do you know that have an emulator built-in?
20:20:14 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
20:24:59 <zzo38> ?messages
20:24:59 <lambdabot> Taneb said 10h 29m 48s ago: Prelude.Generalize.choice is identical to Data.Foldable.asum, which Prelude.Generalize exports anyway
20:28:05 <fizzie> There are emulators/simulators with an assembler built-in; does that count?
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20:33:37 <zzo38> fizzie: I don't know. Which ones do you mean?
20:34:01 <zzo38> I mean non-interactive systems so they might not count.
20:35:49 <fizzie> SPIM, the MIPS simulator, (IIRC) works so that you just give it an assembly source file, and it uses the integrated assembler to assemble it, then emulates a MIPS system to run the result. Though I suppose it also has an interactive debugger mode.
20:37:49 <zzo38> OK. What is then done by the result when emulated?
20:46:12 <fizzie> Nothing, really. I think you can inspect the contents of the memory afterwards, and the emulator has system calls that can produce output, which you can then inspect. (Come to think of it, I suppose it counts as interactive since I believe it has some input syscalls too, I've just never used them.)
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20:52:03 <oerjan> gah disconnections are back
20:52:37 <oerjan> and simultaneously ruining my theory that they were due to something my previous housemates were doing
20:53:27 <fizzie> Is that true? Do you know what your previous housemates are doing right now?
20:53:31 <fizzie> They might be doing the same things.
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21:10:39 <kmc> fizzie: I was hoping that would be "How do I find C libraries that aren't shit?"
21:20:55 <zzo38> I don't know.
21:22:35 <fizzie> I think asking people can be a profitable strategy, but even that has the slight problem that *someone* needs to wade through the bad ones.
21:23:49 <kmc> the real answer seems to be "don't use libraries, reinvent the wheel"
21:23:55 <kmc> make your own shit library
21:26:03 <zzo38> Sometimes that is the choice, but it also depend, what library are you trying to make? Maybe there is one.
21:28:29 <zzo38> I have added an emulator to the MagicKit assembler (which is used for NES/Famicom and PC-Engine), a 6502 code in the .EMU block will be executed after the assembler is finish before it make the output file, so you can use that to affect the output and some other things too.
21:30:26 <zzo38> (It is using a slightly modified version of lib6502; it suppresses the error message for illegal instructions.)
21:31:44 <zzo38> I would also like to know if there are assemblers for other systems which have similar feature.
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21:38:22 <itidus21> i think i want to learn 6503
21:38:43 <nortti_> what is that?
21:38:47 <itidus21> SUB 6503, 1
21:39:02 <itidus21> hmm.. i don't suppose i can do that
21:39:11 <itidus21> MOV AX(?), 6503
21:39:21 <itidus21> DEC AX
21:39:29 <nortti_> oh. 6502
21:39:39 <itidus21> ya.. some kind of joke
21:39:53 <itidus21> irony i think
21:40:04 <zzo38> What kind of computers with 6502 did you want to program?
21:41:17 <itidus21> BBC Micro
21:41:26 <zzo38> OK
21:41:36 <itidus21> actually thats not true
21:41:49 <itidus21> maybe it's another attempt at irony.
21:42:11 <itidus21> but its not ironic because BBC Micro is probably actually fun.. just found it on wikipedia
21:42:28 <itidus21> no.. the computer i have in mind is NES/Famicom
21:42:45 <zzo38> OK. What assembler did you want to use?
21:43:42 <itidus21> it's on my bucket list to: learn japanese, learn 6502 assembly language, finish reading akira manga, finish watching rurouni kenshin anime, ... bleh
21:44:06 <itidus21> zzo38: my first goal of 6502 is actually to help with reading the disassembly of super mario bros.
21:44:37 <zzo38> You would have to learn the system too, not only the 6502. Also, the NES/Famicom does not have decimal mode other than that it is the same 6502 including unofficial instructions.
21:45:11 <itidus21> it's a nice disassembly, i've peeked at it before
21:45:30 <itidus21> i think it's one of the few games that i actually care how they did it
21:46:41 <itidus21> perhaps also i need more patience
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21:54:07 <itidus21> zzo38: i will have to get around to it in my own time.. so many things to learn about hardware
21:54:57 <itidus21> such as.. how graphics accelration actually works in a modern pc
21:59:47 <itidus21> as i started to learn about blitters then, gradually i can see that something about my conception of a computer is too simple
22:02:03 <nortti_> what is your conception of a computer?
22:02:57 <zzo38> Have you ever read Akagi and Kaiji manga and anime?
22:05:58 <nortti_> who does "you" include?
22:06:22 <zzo38> I meant itidus21 but others too if you want to
22:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, just curious, have you ever moved past the "realising how little I know" stage and actually reached "learning more things"?
22:13:03 <kmc> at this point you could probably generalize some of the lessons about how little you know
22:13:20 <kmc> preemptively question the assumptions you make about how things work
22:13:22 <kmc> stuff like that
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22:15:51 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember a specific conversation we've had with iti where we try to explain something.
22:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Nope, it's too fuzzed together.
22:19:53 <zzo38> Is it proper in boxing to stay on the floor until they count to nine the second time you are knocked out in an attempt to avoid being TKO'd?
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22:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, no.
22:23:50 <zzo38> Is there specifically a rule against it?
22:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
22:26:04 <zzo38> How do they enforce it?
22:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> If you break the rule you're banned from punching people.
22:26:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Ever.
22:26:40 <Phantom_Hoover> You can still box, it's just kind of pointless.
22:26:59 <zzo38> But how to they check if you are legitimately knocked out for that amount of time or not?
22:29:15 <zzo38> I do not know how they could do anything about it other than giving your opponent more points. But maybe I am wrong.
22:30:02 <Phantom_Hoover> They whallop you in the side when they reach nine and see if you cry out.
22:32:34 <zzo38> If they do that then you can instead get up just before they reach nine. Anyways if they do that, then if you are legitimately knocked out but would get up anyways then you may remain knocked out longer unfairly. And you could be able to learn self-control to decide by yourself to cry or not as much as you want.
22:40:54 <Phantom_Hoover> (I know nothing about boxing FWIW, that was all made up.)
22:41:28 <zzo38> I certainly did not believe "If you break the rule you're banned from punching people."; but that's all.
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22:59:28 <Sgeo_> Well, this thread went bizarre http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/xcjnf/found_a_bull_in_hobby_lobby_obviously_there_was/c5l84sv
23:01:48 <ion> The direct children of that comment are funny. Can’t tell if trolling or just stupid.
23:07:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I can definitely see someone not realising that it's is not the possessive of it when asked.
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23:56:47 <shachaf> kmc: Wait, what happened?
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23:59:08 * shachaf looks at scrollback
2012-07-30
00:09:23 <zzo38> You happened.
00:11:16 <itidus21> <nortti_> who does "you" include? <-- his "you" mustn't be questioned. :D
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00:29:05 <itidus21> hum
00:29:57 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: some people apparently feast on knowledge in their early 20s... i don't know wheer they get the time or energy for it
00:30:09 <itidus21> maybe its even during teens
00:31:05 <itidus21> maybe cos my schooling didn't go so well
00:33:24 <itidus21> knowing things is depressing in a way
00:33:37 <itidus21> becoming aware of the ubiquity of experiences
00:38:31 <itidus21> or the way we humans make a big deal about continents, but were we to drain up the water, all we would find is a giant desert
00:46:35 <itidus21> humm
00:51:09 <itidus21> i think that learning is a delicate balancing act to ensure that you're still crazy enough at the end to want to use what you learned
00:53:42 <zzo38> OK
00:55:03 <itidus21> ah i got lost in a rant
00:55:18 <kallisti> itidus21: DIABEETUS
00:56:14 <itidus21> diabletes
00:57:55 <itidus21> one important step to success is to avoid learning any national security secrets that would encourage them to keep you under their eye
00:58:11 <Sgeo_> `ls bin
00:58:13 <HackEgo> ​? \ @ \ No \ WELCOME \ WeLcOmE \ addquote \ allquotes \ anonlog \ calc \ define \ delquote \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ google \ hatesgeo \ joustreport \ jousturl \ json \ k \ karma \ karma+ \ karma- \ learn \ log \ logurl \ macro \ maketext \ marco \ paste \ pastefortunes \ pastekarma \ pastelog \ pastelogs \ pastenquotes \ pastequotes \ pastewisdom \ pastlog \ ping \ prefixes \ qc \ quachaf \ quoerjan
00:59:33 <itidus21> another is avoid NDA's where reasonably possible
01:00:57 <Sgeo_> HackEgo doesn't do binary files?
01:02:48 <zzo38> Yes avoid NDA's
01:03:28 <itidus21> more importantly, if you are smart enough that someone thinks it's worth getting you to sign an NDA especially avoid it then
01:03:36 <itidus21> heh
01:03:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <itidus21> or the way we humans make a big deal about continents, but were we to drain up the water, all we would find is a giant desert
01:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> i
01:04:15 <itidus21> you're speechless?
01:04:28 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
01:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> yes i am
01:04:34 <itidus21> its ujst a thought that popped into my head
01:06:48 <itidus21> it may help if i explain that when i joined here i expected to find basic derivatives. everything else that followed can be traced back to that
01:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Derivatives as in Brainfuck derivatives?
01:07:32 <itidus21> yes
01:12:11 <Phantom_Hoover> get
01:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> out
01:12:12 <Phantom_Hoover> now
01:13:09 -!- itidus21 has left ("i'll be back.. i must have been mistaken about what i expected to find .. this never happened :-s you'll get over it").
01:13:25 <Sgeo_> Phantom_Hoover, even I've made a BF derivative (ok, so I'm not exactly the best person to use "even I've")
01:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> leave
01:13:53 <Phantom_Hoover> there will be a new order
01:13:54 <Sgeo_> zzo38 used it in his own language.
01:14:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't think I can get zzo38 to do anything, on account of him being almost Lovecraftianly incomprehensible.
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01:14:37 <itidus21> i mean i probably expected to find lisp, scheme, squeak, smalltalk, ocaml, bugsys, etc derivatives
01:14:39 <Phantom_Hoover> The best I can do is just leave him and hope the cultists don't work out how to awaken him from his slumber.
01:14:58 <Sgeo_> itidus21, I've made a BF derivative
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01:15:16 <zzo38> That's OK I don't let the cultists work out how to awaken me from my slumber.
01:15:43 <zzo38> I will awake by myself when I want to be awake.
01:15:54 <Phantom_Hoover> And may that day never come.
01:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, anyway, out.
01:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, you too.
01:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> WHO IS NEXT
01:16:36 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps you are next.
01:16:59 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
01:23:51 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: I make good language
01:23:53 <kallisti> for great good
01:24:04 <kallisti> I am worthy to be called #esoteric
01:24:09 <Phantom_Hoover> no
01:24:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't like you
01:24:34 <kallisti> ha. great response.
01:24:42 <kallisti> not "I disagree because ..."
01:24:44 <kallisti> just
01:24:47 <kallisti> "I don't like you"
01:25:27 <kallisti> YOU SHAN'T DISCREDIT MY WORK.
01:26:09 <kallisti> Each person can have a total of up to 52 pulp organs, 32 in the permanent and 20 in the primary teeth. The total volumes of all the permanent teeth organs is 0.38cc and the mean volume of a single adult human pulp is 0.02cc.
01:26:24 <kallisti> mmm dental pulp
01:26:58 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: does the UK flouridate its drinking water?
01:27:09 <kallisti> we do so in the US, and it's a big controversy
01:27:12 <kallisti> because people are stupid.
01:27:25 <Phantom_Hoover> In some places, I think.
01:29:21 <kallisti> reducing dental care costs for poor families with many young children at very little cost is evil.
01:30:26 <pikhq> kallisti: See, it's mind-damaging poison.
01:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> You both know it's not that simple.
01:34:32 <kallisti> it really is..
01:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> No. It isn't.
01:35:49 <Phantom_Hoover> You know full well nobody's seriously arguing that it's bad because it improves dental health, and to dismiss all safety concerns as fears of it being 'mind-damaging poison' is not just dumb, it's patronising as hell.
01:36:47 <zzo38> I think Phantom_Hoover is correct.
01:37:16 <kallisti> I didn't say that's what they were arguing. I was saying that's the actual results of flouridation.
01:37:25 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: "Although water fluoridation can cause dental fluorosis, which can alter the appearance of developing teeth, most of this is mild and usually not considered to be of aesthetic or public-health concern.[10] There is no clear evidence of other adverse effects.[11] Moderate-quality studies have investigated effectiveness; studies on adverse effects have been mostly of low quality.[11]"
01:37:31 <elliott> the case for fluoride seems pretty well cut out to me
01:37:39 <elliott> and all anti-flouridation I have seen has been of the conspiratorial sort
01:38:07 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying that kallisti and pikhq's statements were dumb.
01:38:18 <elliott> any circlejerking is dumb
01:38:37 <kallisti> I mean
01:38:40 <kallisti> I was just jerking alone
01:38:43 <kallisti> and then pikhq showed up
01:38:46 * kallisti shrugs.
01:38:57 <kallisti> the more the merrier.
01:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I have seen serious discussion as to fluoride's safety, and although it concluded it's safe the alternative was seriously considered.
01:40:31 <kallisti> you could say that it puts too much trust in the government to ensure public safety. However, that argument extends to almost any large-scale public works project.
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01:57:36 <kallisti> itidus21: alternatively you could cover all the continents with water
01:57:41 <kallisti> and you'd just have a big ocean
01:57:57 <kallisti> not so important now, silly humans.
01:59:09 <itidus21> ha ha ha silly humans
02:00:46 <kallisti> sometime in the distant future all of the continents will eventually merge together again
02:00:56 <kallisti> and then break apart again
02:01:01 <Phantom_Hoover> whoa, dude
02:01:06 <kallisti> yeah, man,
02:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> we're, like, a blink in the eye of the universe
02:01:52 <kallisti> I'd like to imagine that society dissolves
02:01:57 <kallisti> but we're still alive as a species
02:02:04 <kallisti> and dinosaurs happen again
02:02:27 <kallisti> I'd be willing to bet money that a sci-fi book about this very subject already exists.
02:03:07 <itidus21> you should always account for the fact that the person taking your bets might not care if you win
02:04:00 * kallisti roams the Neopangean landscape atop the sturdy spine of his feathered Neovelociraptor companion.
02:04:17 <kallisti> yeah everything is the same but with a Neo- prefix.
02:04:26 <kallisti> deal with it.
02:05:48 <kallisti> oh, except Velocirators weren't present during Pangea
02:06:25 <kallisti> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnachronismStew
02:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Man, Wikiquote is terrible.
02:09:20 <kallisti> not as terrible as tvtropes
02:09:46 <Phantom_Hoover> At least TV Tropes isn't formal.
02:10:19 <kallisti> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomewhereAPalaeontologistIsCrying
02:11:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Soon you'll realise that the idiots renamed all the "You Fail X Forever" into "Artistic Licence - X" to go easy on the poor little artists.
02:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> That is not a pleasant realisation.
02:11:41 <kallisti> whaaaaa
02:12:05 <pikhq> It's pretty simple, really. Some people seem to have gotten into their head that tvtropes should be 'serious'.
02:12:16 <pikhq> Rather than, uh, a bunch of people snarking at media extensively.
02:12:28 <kallisti> but that's all I /want/ from it. :(
02:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Also they purged like all the sex-related tropes because apparently sex is something only perverts care about.
02:15:05 <kallisti> Phantom_Hoover: you are a pervert for knowing about those articles
02:15:09 <kallisti> shameful
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02:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (OK well to some extent it was Google adsense forcing their hands, but IIRC they made it far more puritan than it had to be.)
02:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The term 'paedoshit' featured prominently.
02:22:38 <kallisti> :|
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03:16:25 <Sgeo_> String comparing on RSS from Twitter does not work
03:16:34 <Sgeo_> Because it will sometimes mix up the order of attributes
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04:24:57 <Sgeo_> Is pooryorick a regular here?
04:28:04 <zzo38> Someone I ask told me that there is no rule in boxing that says you have to get up as soon as you are able to.
04:28:27 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I don't know!!
04:37:15 <kallisti> zzo38: is there any rule in Indy racing that you have to press the accelerator
04:37:19 <kallisti> these are important questions
04:38:47 <zzo38> Does anyone drive behind you in Indy?
04:41:00 <kallisti> don't know
04:58:45 <itidus21> kallisti: who do you ask? _who_?
05:01:13 <kallisti> :?
05:01:15 <itidus21> zzo38: are you still playing that text boxing sim? :D
05:01:24 <itidus21> kallisti: about indy
05:03:29 <itidus21> in a professional chess tournament is it ok to wear a small lcd screen with flashing lights on your head?
05:06:22 <kallisti> probably not
05:06:53 <kallisti> though I've read stories about youth chess tournaments where opponents would tap their finger lightly
05:07:02 <kallisti> as a way to distract their opponent in a criticial move.
05:07:25 <kallisti> a very subtle thing that you could barely notice consciously.
05:07:58 <itidus21> is it illegal to sit in your indy car while you play chess?
05:08:12 <itidus21> inside the tournament building that is
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05:08:33 <itidus21> ok im going a bit far
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06:25:03 <zzo38> itidus21: Yes I have still played that text boxing sim as well as other BBS door games today
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09:23:59 <Sgeo__> What's the formal name for Python's sucky coroutines?
09:25:08 <shachaf> Generators?
09:25:43 <Sgeo__> Does that encompass the lack of a function being able to ... nest... generators to become a generator
09:25:52 <Sgeo__> Wow, I have no idea how to describe what I want to say
09:26:23 * Sgeo__ vaguely wonders what metaprogramming is like in Lua compared to Tcl
09:26:48 <shachaf> What do you mean?
09:27:36 <shachaf> Python3 has "yield from" which is maybe what you're talking about?
09:28:01 <shachaf> You still need to mark places that use generators explicitly.
09:28:42 <Sgeo__> shachaf, oh, wow. That's good. Still can be annoying I guess, but at least it's livable
09:29:03 <Sgeo__> Wait, ... no. Can't really pass that into something as a callback, can you?
09:29:20 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean.
09:30:12 <Sgeo__> As in, a function that takes a callback, using generators to do a continuation-like thing and essentially telling the thing asking for the callback to resume the generator
09:30:38 <shachaf> So doing coöperative threading of sorts?
09:31:22 <shachaf> You would presumably have some kind of scheduler and add the suspended "thread" to the queue when you got the callback.
09:31:25 <shachaf> Or something.
09:32:13 <Sgeo__> I remember in a C# 3.5 project having to write a scheduler
09:32:48 <shachaf> "scheduler" is perhaps an overstatement here.
09:32:54 <shachaf> I just mean a queue.
09:34:08 <shachaf> while True: queue.pop().next() # or something
10:21:46 <ion> Ubisoft games on your computer? Any webpage can run any executable on your computer through their DRM crap. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4311264
10:25:10 <Sgeo__> I just helped someone in #tcl
10:25:23 <Sgeo__> How do I go so quickly from newbie to someone capable of providing help?
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10:41:58 <shubshub> Goodnight shubshub
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10:43:56 <Sgeo__> I'm suddenly struck by how popular purl.org is
10:44:03 <itidus21> Sgeo__: the explanation which is most damaging to your ego is the most likely one to be true
10:44:57 * itidus21 just made that up.
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11:03:43 <fizzie> Heh, got five "on vacation" autoreplies to an email sent to the department staff@ address. It's the season.
11:11:11 <Sgeo__> So, just wrote code relying on a thing called xsxp under the impression that it was an XML parser. It is not.
11:11:46 <fizzie> Like the old adage says, "everything that's got an X in it is not an XML parser".
11:12:34 <Sgeo__> Well, something that calls itself an XML parser should probably be an XML parser.
11:12:36 <Sgeo__> "eXtremely Simple Xml Parser
11:12:36 <Sgeo__> "
11:13:08 <Sgeo__> It's more of a pretty interface to some other parser
11:15:54 <ion> X.org isn’t an XML parser?
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11:55:44 <GlitchMr> I've feeling that this language isn't esoteric enough: http://paste.uk.to/6d77917c
11:55:56 <GlitchMr> (but at least it has REPL)
11:58:01 <nortti> @msg Vorpal pictures of my t20: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/IMAG0073.jpg https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/IMAG0074.jpg https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/IMAG0075.jpg
11:58:01 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
11:58:11 <nortti> @tell Vorpal pictures of my t20: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/IMAG0073.jpg https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/IMAG0074.jpg https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28915864/IMAG0075.jpg
11:58:11 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:59:00 <GlitchMr> Samsung SyncMaster710? I once had such... :P
12:03:35 <GlitchMr> Also, I think I went too far with implementing unit testing in my language :P
12:03:38 <GlitchMr> http://paste.uk.to/4d462f6b
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12:43:44 <fizzie> I think I had a SyncMaster brand CRT once.
12:44:36 <fizzie> It was notable for having that 5*BNC style input too, and those also supported combined H/V sync (and sync on green) so I could use a 13w3/4*BNC adapter cable with it.
12:45:18 <fizzie> Maybe "notable" is a bit too fancy a word.
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13:41:10 <itidus21> s/It was notable for having/It had/
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13:54:02 <nortti> GlitchMr: I got that syncmaster for free few years ago
13:54:10 <GlitchMr> :)
13:55:14 <nortti> the computer is literaly dug from dumpster
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14:30:10 <Sgeo__> I am beginning to hate the Tcl ecosystem
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15:06:39 <nortti> Sgeo__: why?
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15:07:24 <Sgeo__> nortti, I was forced to use an obsolete tDOm because I couldn't get TclXml working with tclkit and I couldn't find a newish tdom.kit
15:07:37 <nortti> ok
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19:56:15 <nortti> do you know about the state of Plan 9? Is is completely unusable, usable by my standard or really usable?
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20:00:02 <zzo38> I don't know.
20:03:27 <fizzie> Antwerp railway station: http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/20120721_003.jpg
20:04:08 <ion> :-D
20:05:10 <nortti> :D
20:05:43 <fizzie> It was also still like that about seven hours laters when we were leaving.
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20:53:25 <Taneb> Hello!
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21:20:09 <Taneb> @messages
21:20:09 <lambdabot> You don't have any new messages.
21:20:11 <Taneb> :(
21:20:14 <Taneb> :( :( :(
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21:24:12 <Taneb> zzo38, hello
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21:48:00 <shachaf> preflex: seen kmc
21:48:04 <shachaf> Hah.
21:49:43 <elliott> @tell Taneb hi
21:49:43 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:51:00 <mroman> Lambdabot tells you when you got messages :)
21:51:13 <mroman> @tell mroman Right?
21:51:13 <lambdabot> You can tell yourself!
21:51:32 <mroman> No, I don't talk with myself!
21:51:51 <Taneb> @messages?
21:51:51 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
21:51:57 <Taneb> @messages
21:51:57 <lambdabot> elliott said 2m 14s ago: hi
21:52:08 <Taneb> @@pl messages
21:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, if you talk when it's in the channel, yes.
21:56:23 <mroman> What?
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21:58:54 <Phantom_Hoover> lambdabot notifying you of new messages.
22:00:51 <ion> @@ @tell elliott @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo
22:00:51 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:00:57 <elliott> @help
22:00:57 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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23:07:45 -!- tswett has set topic: Vive le plarimasthugl! | }B? | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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2012-07-31
00:08:09 -!- ais523 has quit.
00:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Everyone's jumping ship, I see.
00:23:04 <elliott> ?
00:23:04 <lambdabot> elliott: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
00:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I guess they might also just be sleeping.
00:23:42 <elliott> @ask monqy your messages were beautiful.
00:23:42 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:23:48 <elliott> @ask monqy I will watch your brogue game
00:23:48 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:38:50 -!- elliott has set topic: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
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00:39:56 <shachaf> @@ @tell ion @echo @echo @echo @echo @echo
00:39:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:45:10 <elliott> @ask monqy nice D:1 plate armour, you cheater
00:45:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:45:55 <shachaf> elliott: Did you see that great SO question?
00:49:57 <elliott> probably not
00:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> was it great
00:53:47 <elliott> @ask monqy close call with the purple gas and the shattering on D:7
00:53:47 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:54:37 <Sgeo__> What game?
00:55:17 <elliott> Sgeo__: brogue
00:55:21 <elliott> it's excellent, you should play it
00:56:13 <elliott> @ask monqy either the recording viewer handles it badly (slowly) or you actually rest manually instead of using Z
00:56:13 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:57:25 <Sgeo__> Ah. Really wish there were brogue servers
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00:58:32 <elliott> i'm idly working on a streaming patch. recording files work pretty well, though.
00:58:41 <elliott> a lot of them are posted on the forums
01:01:14 <Sgeo__> Cool, at the streaming patch
01:12:38 <elliott> @ask monqy goes out of sync on turn 8728 : (
01:12:38 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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01:43:42 <zzo38> I made this MagicKit improvements http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9137 but you can tell me please if you think should have other improvements too, which one do you want?
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02:38:39 <ion> > co "coward"
02:38:42 <lambdabot> "ward"
02:42:57 <Sgeo__> co?
02:45:43 <pikhq_> @source co
02:45:43 <lambdabot> co not available
02:49:44 <Sgeo__> @src co
02:49:44 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
02:53:40 <Jafet> @check \coy -> co y == case coy of 'c':'o':y -> y; y -> 'c':'o':y
02:53:41 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `co'
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03:59:20 <elliott> hello monqy
04:00:56 <monqy> hi
04:00:56 <lambdabot> monqy: You have 6 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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09:55:08 <kmc> hi shachaf
09:55:31 <shachaf> hi kmc
09:57:45 <shachaf> kmc: Now I can't randomly move conversations over to the other channel!
09:58:13 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure what happened but I hope you stick around somewhere or other.
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10:01:23 <kmc> thanks
10:01:30 <kmc> what happened should be pretty clear if you read the logs
10:02:54 <elliott> mysterious
10:03:19 <shachaf> I read the logs and couldn't figure it out.
10:04:13 <kmc> joshua_ was a douche to me in a way that i can't really tolerate
10:04:30 <kmc> i explained why i was upset, and gave him an opportunity to say something in response, which he declined to do
10:04:33 <kmc> so i left
10:04:52 * shachaf 's people-being-rude-on-the-Internet detector may be broken.
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10:58:26 <ion> Buttermilk "plays" with her "friends" http://youtu.be/5IuRzJRrRpQ
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11:32:30 <Sgeo__> elliott, Brogue has an ID system o.O
11:32:51 <monqy> is Sgeo__ playing brogue
11:33:06 <Sgeo__> monqy, I might start
11:33:10 <Sgeo__> Currently just reading wiki
11:33:18 <monqy> I hear the wiki contains wrong information
11:33:41 <monqy> elliott: are you going to teach sgeo how to be good at brogue
11:35:15 <elliott> <Sgeo__> elliott, Brogue has an ID system o.O
11:35:16 <elliott> astonishing
11:35:19 <elliott> a roguelike with an id system
11:35:33 <elliott> Sgeo__: just play it, it spoils you on 90% of everything if you look at descriptions
11:35:44 <elliott> including hit rolls etc.
11:35:53 <Sgeo__> elliott, I was under the impression that id systems were generally disliked in here, or by someone in here, or is that specific to Crawl and NetHack IDing?
11:36:08 <elliott> i don't like most id systems and crawl's is especially bad
11:36:13 <elliott> brogue's is not objectionable
11:38:17 <Sgeo__> It's interesting to read about a game without playing it.
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11:40:37 <Sgeo__> http://brogue.wikia.com/wiki/Staff_of_Blinking
11:40:49 <Sgeo__> The description in-game does not appear to be enough to aide with proper use
11:41:46 <monqy> oh no
11:41:49 <elliott> Sgeo__: it is impossible to write a complete strategy guide for use of items and terrain in brogue because the whole game is figuring out how to exploit those things within the context of a randomly generated terrain; it is 100% a game about dealing with what you get and exploiting your surroundings to your advantage
11:42:10 <elliott> therefore the only guide that can possibly be helpful for 90% of things is trial and error, building the skill of learning to recognise uses
11:42:30 <elliott> there are some things that are relatively constant (for instance, how to play the id game) but those are easily figured out in a game or two if not explained
11:43:00 <Sgeo__> elliott, by proper use, I mean details of how the item functions such as "It uses all the charges to put you $num_of_charges spaces in that direction"
11:43:28 <elliott> huh?
11:43:33 <Sgeo__> elliott, did you read what I linked?
11:43:50 <elliott> yes.
11:44:04 <elliott> the in-game description is perfectly consistent, only a misreading would suggest the erroneous interpretation that the wiki tries to suggest;
11:44:09 <elliott> additionally, the in-game targetting makes it completely clear
11:44:11 <elliott> as it displays the beam
11:44:20 <elliott> and hence you would see it is impossible to use it to teleport
11:44:34 <Sgeo__> Ah, ok
11:45:53 <elliott> iirc at least the guide thing on the wiki is terrible
11:46:06 <monqy> i dont read the wiki so
11:47:47 <Sgeo__> I like watching Let's Plays
11:47:52 <Sgeo__> I'll see if there's a Let's Play
11:48:07 <elliott> Sgeo__: just watch one of the recordings on the forum or something
11:48:26 <elliott> mikeym or Creaphis or i-forget-who-else if you want to see a good player
11:49:04 <Sgeo__> Hmm, anything wrong with watching one on YouTube?
11:49:13 <Sgeo__> I actually get narration that way.
11:49:26 <Sgeo__> I guess even though I tend to prefer blind LPs, there's no point with Brogue?
11:49:37 <monqy> how can you use your imagination if you have narration
11:49:41 <monqy> how can you use your imagination if you're not playing yourself
11:49:43 <monqy> how can you use your imagination, sgeo
11:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not an LP if there's no commentary, really.
11:50:45 <Sgeo__> Oh, the one I'm watching is largely blind
11:51:34 <monqy> why would you watch a blind lp of brogue, don't want any informative information or spoiling on how to play well?
11:52:09 <Sgeo__> Because I like blind LPs, it's fun to watch someone struggle to learn how to play a game
11:52:32 <Sgeo__> I tend to look for text if I want to learn how to play a game well
11:53:10 <elliott> monqy: sgeo doesn't like doing things, he just likes consuming media about doing things
11:53:25 <Sgeo__> What elliott said.
11:53:43 <elliott> it is sad that you agree
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12:00:05 <Sgeo__> This person has Homestuck music playing in the background
12:01:25 <elliott> good to know
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12:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, isn't reading Boatmurdered the same?
12:12:35 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: the same as what
12:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Consuming media about doing things.
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12:32:46 <Sgeo__> So, how are people supposed to know about altars?
12:33:07 <Sgeo__> Um, ok, maybe not "altars"
12:33:23 <Sgeo__> Um, carpeted rooms with the items and when you take one item cages fall around the rest
12:35:08 <Sgeo__> "Either Incendiary darts or a potion of incineration are always generated on the level." about "Flammible Barricade in the Doorway"
12:35:18 <Sgeo__> Is that explained in the game somehow, or is that a genuine spoiler?
12:40:39 <Sgeo__> Mind you, I think the person I'm watching is an idiot: Attacking a thing that's described as containing poisoned gas?
12:41:00 <monqy> : )
12:42:27 <elliott> Sgeo__: maybe you should play the game rather than asking people to do your research on the game for you
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12:52:58 * Sgeo__ downloads 1.6.4
12:53:03 <Sgeo__> (Had 1.6.2 on here before)
12:57:51 <Sgeo__> Someone told me how to change the size once but I forgot
13:00:44 <Sgeo__> PageDown
13:04:55 <Sgeo__> It, uh, apparently comes with a bot
13:06:11 <elliott> what do you mean
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13:06:46 <monqy> clearly any form of automation of anything is a "bot"
13:06:50 <monqy> wouldn't you agree, itidus21
13:07:15 <Sgeo__> Well, it seems to automate playing the game...
13:07:22 <monqy> does it?
13:07:23 <itidus21> for the greater good i will quietly agree
13:07:28 <monqy> thank you
13:07:50 <Sgeo__> What's Autopilot
13:07:59 <monqy> why don't you try it out
13:08:04 <Sgeo__> It seems to explore and fight mosters and descend levels
13:08:15 <itidus21> i'm quite happy though, i got minecraft today
13:08:48 <itidus21> i'm quite sad though, i crashed minecraft today... but i changed some things so hopefully it will be better
13:08:56 <elliott> Sgeo__: it is useful for the first few levels, at least it was when they didn't have vaults
13:09:30 <elliott> autoexplore is still useful for the first N floors
13:09:49 <itidus21> hmm
13:10:05 <Sgeo__> It seems to die to sentinals a lot
13:10:14 <monqy> I'm surprised it gets to sentinels
13:10:20 <itidus21> maybe chess games should be played that way.. only stopping for the humans when they're not sure what to do
13:11:05 <itidus21> i know that that guy already suggested something like computer assistance during chess
13:11:17 <Sgeo__> This iteration got stuck due to .. hm
13:11:27 <Sgeo__> I see no path for further exploration
13:12:02 <elliott> it doesn't do secret doors
13:12:03 <Sgeo__> Got jammed due to caustic gas
13:12:12 <elliott> are you going to use autoplay as your let's play
13:13:12 <Sgeo__> Died to pink jellies
13:13:21 <elliott> apparently yes
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13:24:21 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, no, everyone should just play continuous chess
13:27:06 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: for the greater good i will quietly agree
13:28:49 <itidus21> speaking of jellies though, i would like to know what a jelly or slime is supposed to be. is it like the thing in the blob? is it a land-jellyfish? is it fungus?
13:29:10 <itidus21> just putting that out there
13:29:46 <itidus21> oh, must be about time for a what-if
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13:30:01 <Taneb> Hello!
13:30:35 <Taneb> @ping
13:30:35 <lambdabot> pong
13:30:36 -!- pumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
13:30:36 <monqy> hi
13:33:01 <itidus21> i believe the best way to introduce something is to not influence the audiences expectations at all
13:35:21 <Taneb> @ping
13:35:21 <lambdabot> pong
13:36:13 <itidus21> like, this is a cardboard box 1ft x 1ft x 1ft. it may contain cookies, or books, or chicken bones, or old records, or fossilized tree samples, or diet coke, but really so long as it's safe, i'm only dampening the experience by talking about it at all
13:37:36 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk.
13:38:28 <Taneb> What if you open the box?
13:40:18 <itidus21> yes, it's infact a collection of bertrand russell's academic elbow patches
13:40:37 <monqy> better than i ever could have dreamed of or hoped for
13:43:14 <itidus21> discalimer: i don't actually believe he necessarily had any, nor that they mean anything, nor that i have a clue what he did
13:44:41 <itidus21> included is an undiscovered notebook of mozart explaining his toilet humour
13:50:27 <monqy> ive always wondered what was up with that
13:51:12 <itidus21> i can't help feeling a bit wrong by making references to things i have no association with
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14:34:51 <kmc> itidus21: i like your chess idea
14:35:01 <kmc> computer and human playing in teams
14:35:09 <kmc> have seen this talked about, mostly where the human has the final say
14:35:24 <kmc> but you could also do it where the computers play except when uncertain
14:36:39 <kmc> stop signs seem to be entirely optional in montenegro
14:36:50 <kmc> we saw 6 cars in a row go through one without even slowing down
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16:33:48 <Taneb> Hello!
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16:43:37 <Taneb> Thanks
16:49:39 <Taneb> How the hell is selling DRM-protected games on Linux any less ethical than on any other operating system?
16:50:09 <elliott> hi
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16:50:59 <Taneb> Oh wait, the thing I'm complaining about isn't a thing
16:50:59 <Taneb> That's good
16:51:25 <monqy> good to hear
16:53:10 <itidus21> ironically it's probably more ethical to sell DRM-protected games on Linux than any other OS
16:53:53 <Taneb> more or equally
16:54:05 <Taneb> eg FreeBSD, Hurd
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16:55:51 <kmc> i think using DRM is ethical, but makes your product significantly less valuable
16:55:58 <kmc> i also think publishing tools to break DRM is ethical
16:56:20 <Taneb> I don't really have a stance on the ethics of DRM
16:56:25 <kmc> in the USA there is a legal asymmetry here
16:56:27 <kmc> which needs to go away
16:56:39 <Taneb> DRM that negatively affects other parts of your system is unethical
16:56:46 <kmc> though i think we've moved on to other things to nerd-rage at
16:56:50 <kmc> yeah
16:56:50 <Taneb> DRM that installs without permission is unethical
16:56:54 <kmc> invasive rootkit DRM is not ok
16:57:23 <itidus21> hmmm
16:57:44 <nortti> Taneb: is there DRM that doesn't negatively affect your system?
16:57:47 <itidus21> the question i guess is whether linux would become corrupted by DRM
16:58:06 <Taneb> nortti, parts of your system that are used when not playing the game? I dunno, probably not
16:58:28 <Taneb> Not just games, other stuff too, but I think games is the context where DRM comes up the most
16:59:25 <itidus21> well, how does one prevent oneself being a pirate when one compiles ones own OS
16:59:35 <itidus21> lol
16:59:38 <kmc> wow
16:59:42 <itidus21> and should one
16:59:57 <Taneb> itidus21, if it's your own OS, it's not piracy
17:00:10 <Taneb> Going on your own boat isn't being a pirate
17:00:17 <Taneb> Neither is taking your money off it
17:00:41 <kmc> it's quite possible to violate copyright on GPL software
17:00:53 <kmc> probably not so easy to do this with "personal use" only
17:01:29 <kmc> anyway copyright law is just as essential to free software as it is to proprietary commercial software
17:01:33 <itidus21> so im starting to go back on my last statement
17:01:35 <kmc> at least the GPL school of free software
17:01:47 <kmc> itidus21: doesn't that happen every time you make a statement?
17:01:55 <Taneb> I'm not a huge fan of GPL
17:01:57 <kmc> you could save us all some time by going back pre-emptively
17:02:04 <nortti> yeah. for WTFPL/CC0/PD school it wouldn't matter
17:02:29 <kmc> for BSD/MIT it would not matter much, but perhaps people still want attribution
17:02:38 <nortti> yeah
17:02:42 <itidus21> kmc: only because i make my statements around phds, haskell coders and mathematicians
17:02:43 <Taneb> MIT and CC0 are the two I use the most
17:02:51 <kmc> here i'm ignoring the fairly separate issue of warranty / liability
17:02:55 <kmc> itidus21: no
17:03:07 <nortti> I use WTFPL or the license original software used
17:03:09 <kmc> you say things which any reasonable person would judge to be nonsense
17:03:22 <Taneb> kmc, I find a bit of itidusrant on occasion quite therapeutic
17:03:38 <nortti> +(if I'm developing software project someone else started)
17:03:38 <kmc> yeah i'm happy itidus21 is here
17:03:41 <itidus21> first you have to know GPL exists before you can know i am talking nonsense about it
17:03:44 <kmc> don't get me wrong :)
17:04:35 <kmc> if there were no copyright law, then corporations could use currently-GPL software in proprietary products, but their employees could also legally publish that proprietary source code
17:04:48 <kmc> however they'd still be fired for doing so, and maybe sued for breach of contract
17:04:48 <itidus21> ok.... yes it does happen every time
17:05:10 <Taneb> kmc, are you a fan of your local Pirate Party?
17:05:17 <kmc> no strong opinion
17:05:39 <kmc> actually I think currently the GPL benefits large companies over small ones
17:05:45 <Taneb> Last election, they were the only party who I read their manifesto and agreed with everything.
17:06:01 <Taneb> Which isn't saying much, as the only other manifesto I read was the BNP's
17:06:02 <kmc> large companies can develop everything in-house and make money with software they never publish in any form
17:06:07 <nortti> Taneb: where do you live?
17:06:31 <fizzie> Every bit I say goes through a box that's busy violating copyright on GPL software by using it in a way not allowed by the license.
17:06:33 <kmc> in that case they can use GPL software however they like (though many are still deathly afraid of it)
17:07:39 <Taneb> nortti, UK
17:07:46 <nortti> ok
17:07:50 <Taneb> BNP is the extreme right-wing pary
17:07:54 <Taneb> *+t
17:08:10 <fizzie> BNP is the Basic Nultilingual Plane.
17:08:21 <nortti> I am member of piraattinuoret which is yout organization of pirate party of finland
17:08:23 <itidus21> also the Bacchus Naur Party
17:08:40 <itidus21> ^Baccus
17:08:53 <kmc> black panther party with NP oracle
17:08:55 <fizzie> Backus.
17:09:10 <Taneb> @ping
17:09:10 <lambdabot> pong
17:09:15 <kmc> Taneb: i have heard that BNP is actually in favor of liberal social policies like increased funding for education
17:09:19 <kmc> in between all the racism
17:09:30 <kmc> you know, increased funding for educating white british people
17:09:49 <Taneb> Ooh, that ping is not good
17:09:52 <kmc> my british friend speculates that this is because people in the BNP don't agree on anything other than the racism, and whoever happened to draft their platform decided this bit sounds good
17:09:53 <fizzie> Bacchus-Naur Form is what you get when you try to do a BNF grammar but you're really really drunk.
17:09:58 <kmc> ++
17:10:28 <Taneb> nortti, WITHIN THE SAME TOWN AS ELLIOTT!
17:10:47 <nortti> so you are hexam
17:10:53 <nortti> *live in
17:10:56 <Taneb> I'm all the hexham
17:11:15 <nortti> so elliott lives in Taneb?
17:11:44 <Taneb> Yeah.
17:11:55 <Taneb> As do just less than 12000 other people
17:11:59 <nortti> isn't that kinda strange
17:12:04 <Taneb> A bit
17:13:13 <itidus21> its only strange to me because i had never heard of hexham before
17:13:40 <kmc> apparently hexham is the #2 location for esoteric programming
17:13:45 <fizzie> It still sounds like cursed pork to me.
17:14:14 <Taneb> kmc, by density, #1 if you only count places with >1 person
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17:14:59 <fizzie> Is there a slang verb "hexhamming", and if so, what does it mean?
17:15:07 <Taneb> No
17:15:16 <nortti> kmc: which is the #1 locatin?
17:15:17 <fizzie> A shame. "I'm really hexhamming it up tonight" sounds very dynamic.
17:15:19 <nortti> *what
17:15:28 <kmc> finland
17:15:49 <nortti> that is a whole country
17:15:57 <Taneb> Specifically Helsinki, iirc
17:16:02 <nortti> ok
17:16:06 <itidus21> the trouble of it is that most artificial constraints in real life are created by police.. eg. your car can go over the speed limit... a person can leave a store without paying for something
17:16:12 <Taneb> fizzie, make that a thing
17:16:24 <Taneb> A THING IN A PLACE WHERE BARELY ANYONE HAS HEARD OF HEXHAM
17:16:27 <itidus21> but... if you have police regularly patrolling your pc.. then you lose your privacy
17:16:51 <kmc> if only there were some legal doctrine regarding limits of what police can do on private property
17:17:13 <itidus21> but if you don't have police regularly patrolling your pc, then you would never get caught doing something outside of the artificial constraints
17:17:40 <fizzie> Helsinki (or the "Greater Helsinki" region, more appropriately) is probably esoteric-important only by virtue of having something like 25% of all Finns in it.
17:17:53 <fizzie> Things like oklopol come from different cities.
17:17:57 <Taneb> I believe Hexham has been used as a euphemism for Hell and the middle of nowhere in parts of southern Scotland
17:18:01 <itidus21> so my naive understanding is that the pc sort of polices itself, some of the time
17:18:16 <nortti> how many here live in Helsinki?
17:18:23 <Taneb> About 4, I think?
17:18:57 <fizzie> It depends on whether you're counting the neighbour towns, like is sometimes done.
17:19:04 <nortti> so does that make Helsinki the esolang capital of the world-?
17:19:07 <nortti> --
17:19:21 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
17:19:23 <fizzie> I'm technically from Espoo, for example.
17:20:21 <Taneb> I'm technically from Newcastle, my birth certificate says Yorkshire, and I've lived in Melbourne
17:20:32 <Taneb> But I live in Hexham
17:21:16 <fizzie> Yes, I suppose I'm "from" Helsinki in the born-in sense. But currently-living-in Espoo.
17:21:27 <Taneb> I have a vague feeling elliott lives just outside, but this is only based on the one sighting I have heard of of elliott, which occurred at the latest in 2004
17:21:31 <fizzie> I seem to recall Deewiant lives in Helsinki proper.
17:21:41 <Taneb> That is, just outside Hexham, not just outside me
17:21:43 <fizzie> And atehwa probably somewhere around here too.
17:21:49 <fizzie> (It's nickping time.)
17:22:02 <fizzie> Oh, and ineiros nowadays.
17:22:05 <Taneb> What the hell is a nick
17:22:18 <fizzie> I suppose you could say fungot lives here too.
17:22:19 <Taneb> And how does one "ping" one
17:22:20 <fungot> fizzie: after this proceeding, i say, god bless the land, or the lives of your officers. you must ride at the fnord.
17:22:29 <Taneb> I think you mean "nitpicking"
17:22:46 <fizzie> Nicks are the names before the comments, and you "ping" one by mentioning it in the text.
17:23:04 <Taneb> Oh, that makes sense
17:23:19 <Taneb> Although you are nitpicking
17:23:40 <itidus21> Taneb: a nick is a set of symbols, used to identify a chatter which can be embedded within a post
17:24:28 <Taneb> I think I've just broken my headphones
17:24:52 <Taneb> @ping
17:24:52 <itidus21> theres no great need for nicks to be in roman characters except that they're easier to type
17:24:53 <lambdabot> pong
17:25:13 <Taneb> Nah, the Youtube video just started buffering as I turned the volume right up
17:25:37 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:25:43 <itidus21> the channel could consist of entirely brainfuck nicks
17:25:58 -!- augur has joined.
17:26:03 <Taneb> Or Cyrillic
17:26:06 <itidus21> except it would be difficult in many ways, and possibly not allowed as nics
17:26:59 <itidus21> * >[-]+ :Erroneous Nickname
17:27:35 <Taneb> @ping
17:27:35 <lambdabot> pong
17:28:47 <nortti> I think that []{}\|-_ are legal but otherwise it must be alphanumeric
17:29:12 -!- Taneb has changed nick to [-].
17:29:18 -!- [-] has changed nick to Taneb.
17:29:27 <fizzie> nortti: ` and ^ too.
17:29:33 <Taneb> [-] is registered
17:30:04 <fizzie> nickname = ( letter / special )*8 ( letter / digit / special / "-" ) special = %x5B-60 / %x7B-7D ; [ ] \ ` _ ^ { | }
17:30:15 <fizzie> (From the RFC; there might be network-specific rules, of course.)
17:30:21 -!- nortti has changed nick to []{}\|-_`^.
17:30:24 <[]{}\|-_`^> :D
17:31:05 <Taneb> Quick, register it
17:31:14 <kmc> some of t he symbols are considered upper case versions of others
17:31:23 <fizzie> kmc: Not everywhere any more.
17:31:35 <fizzie> Freenode has ASCII-specified uppercasings, for example, IIRC.
17:31:40 <kmc> i bet the irc protocol forbids bytes above 0x7E in nicks
17:31:55 <fizzie> (One of the numerics at connection time specifies case mapping.)
17:31:56 <kmc> which means you could not use UTF-8 for non-ascii nicks
17:32:03 <kmc> obviously we should switch to UTF-7
17:32:10 <[]{}\|-_`^> hmm
17:32:16 <[]{}\|-_`^> no. base64
17:32:19 <kmc> /nick +Ji0
17:32:25 -!- itidus21 has changed nick to struct{int_a[5]_.
17:32:31 <struct{int_a[5]_> hm no
17:32:32 <fizzie> {}|^ would be the lowercase of []\~, and still are in e.g. IRCnet, I think.
17:32:39 <kmc> utf-7 is shorter and still coincides with ASCII in some places
17:33:08 <[]{}\|-_`^> foo
17:33:10 <[]{}\|-_`^> ok
17:33:20 <[]{}\|-_`^> ~ is not allowed
17:33:56 -!- struct{int_a[5]_ has changed nick to tidus21.
17:34:09 <fizzie> Oh, "CASEMAPPING=rfc1459" in Freenode still. I was a mistaken.
17:34:16 <fizzie> Maybe they've reverted their stance or something.
17:34:26 <[]{}\|-_`^> I registered this nick by the way
17:34:44 -!- []{}\|-_`^ has changed nick to nortti.
17:34:52 <nortti> #quit
17:34:52 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti).
17:35:09 <nortti> ä/nick []{}\|-_`^
17:35:13 -!- nortti has changed nick to []{}\|-_`^.
17:35:56 <fizzie> Yeah, current Freenode does the {}|^ <=> []\~ casemap. Well. Good.
17:36:55 -!- oonbotti has joined.
17:37:35 <[]{}\|-_`^> fizzie: isn't ` lowercase ^?
17:38:26 <tidus21> lol
17:38:33 <fizzie> Nnno? [\]^ are 0x5b .. 0x5e, {|}~ are 0x7b .. 0x7e.
17:38:40 <[]{}\|-_`^> hmm
17:39:06 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:39:48 <tidus21> my chaos is too great for this chatroom
17:40:34 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined.
17:40:42 <tidus21> taneb innocently said "What the hell is a nick?"
17:40:45 <fizzie> I didn't know about ^/~, incidentally; it's not part of the same 7-bit Finnish encoding that I believe gave us the equivalency of [\] and {|}.
17:40:49 <tidus21> ^Taneb
17:40:50 <fizzie> $ echo '[\]^{|}~' | iconv -f ISO646-FI -t utf-8
17:40:50 <fizzie> ÄÖÅ^äöå‾
17:42:52 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Taneb|Away.
17:43:27 <fizzie> And of course quite often d = ä, v = ö since so few things are 8-bit clean. (Okay, maybe not so often these days.)
17:46:53 <kmc> sucks
17:50:12 -!- derdon has joined.
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17:59:29 -!- Taneb|Away has changed nick to Taneb.
18:07:51 -!- augur has joined.
18:10:56 <Taneb> I think it's funny how, as a video game, the music video for Californication looks incredibly dated
18:17:31 -!- elliott has joined.
18:17:35 <elliott> Taneb: I live inside Hexham.
18:18:12 <Taneb> elliott, I never said you didn't. I merely said I had very weak evidence suggesting you didn't.
18:18:22 <Taneb> But I am glad to have that confirmation
18:18:23 <elliott> Well I'm suing.
18:18:33 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
18:21:21 <Taneb> ...did he join the channel JUST to say that?
18:22:37 -!- elliott has joined.
18:22:40 <elliott> Yes. Good night.
18:22:40 -!- elliott has left ("Leaving").
18:23:12 <Taneb> How enigmatic
18:23:37 <Taneb> Wait, that's barely enigmatic at all
18:24:10 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
18:26:50 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:10:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:14:08 <Taneb> "It's advised to have a functional internet connection" "But my browser's written primarily in C!"
19:18:11 -!- TeruFSX has joined.
19:18:17 <[]{}\|-_`^> what?
19:19:31 <[]{}\|-_`^> #shell poweroff
19:19:40 -!- oonbotti has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:20:12 -!- monqy has joined.
19:21:48 <Taneb> Not very funny joke
19:22:23 <Taneb> Reflecting the double meaning of Functional in the context of computing
19:24:13 <Taneb> @ping
19:24:14 <lambdabot> pong
19:38:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:39:22 <oerjan> i'd swat []{}\|-_`^ for that name, but i fear the swatter might get stuck.
19:43:23 <shachaf> oerjan: Do it!
19:43:46 <oerjan> always the enabler, shachaf
19:44:11 <oerjan> however, tradition requires that i ignore your request.
19:44:22 <shachaf> oerjan: I just want to see the swatter get stuck.
19:44:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Perhaps the entire nick will get stuck to the bottom of the swatter!
19:44:41 <shachaf> Then you'll have to do two-level swats forevermore.
19:45:18 <oerjan> fancy
19:45:35 <shachaf> We haven't had a good swattage in here for years.
19:47:02 <Taneb> I still remember when FireFly died due to swatting
19:47:13 * oerjan gives shachaf a roundhouse swat -----###
19:47:18 <FireFly> that one time
19:50:29 <shachaf> kmc: Should I say "poëtry"?
19:55:18 <oerjan> obvioüsly.
19:57:11 <tidus21> it was funny
19:57:36 <oerjan> now that was a bad joke today, http://www.yafgc.net/
19:57:55 <oerjan> (warning: the rest of the comic is not always sfw)
19:58:20 * oerjan seeks for a missing i lying about
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20:01:16 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to TwoFixt.
20:03:24 -!- TwoFixt has changed nick to copumpkin.
20:07:38 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello).
20:08:41 -!- atrapado has joined.
20:12:07 -!- augur has joined.
20:13:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:14:14 -!- augur has joined.
20:23:37 <fizzie> Incidentally, how would you pronounce []{}\|-_`^ if you happened to be talking to []{}\|-_`^ in some voice-oriented medium?
20:29:15 <tidus21> left square bracket, right square bracket, left seagull, right seagull, backslash, pipe, sheffer stroke, dash, underscore, grave accent, caret
20:29:23 <oerjan> these were supposed to be finnish replacement characters, no? so however those are pronounced.
20:29:29 <tidus21> i was intending to delete the word pipe
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20:35:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Not all of them are.
20:36:02 <fizzie> oerjan: It's ÄÅäåÖö-_`^ if you interpret it that way.
20:36:12 <oerjan> a household name, surely
20:36:50 <fizzie> I guess the -_`^ part could be some sort of a suffix, since there's of course so many ÄÅäåÖös around, not everyone can be "the ÄÅäåÖö".
20:37:22 <oerjan> true dat
20:38:46 <Taneb> @ping
20:38:47 <lambdabot> pong
20:39:12 <Taneb> That probably means it's time for bed...
20:39:17 <Taneb> Or Minecraft
20:39:24 <oerjan> same thing.
20:40:23 <fizzie> I suppose an INTERCAL user would pronounce []{}\|-_`^ as U-turn-U-turn-back-embrace-bracelet-backslat-spike-worm-flat-worm-backspark-shark.
20:42:58 <oerjan> and not an ampersand in sight.
20:47:05 <mroman> And a normal person would pronounce it "fuck it, I can't pronounce that".
20:52:47 <Taneb> What's a normal person doing on IRC?
20:52:59 <mroman> Define normal?
20:53:05 <ion> What’s a normal person?
20:53:22 <oerjan> a person with a gaussian distribution, of course
20:53:55 * ion degausses your distribution
20:54:56 <mroman> Luckily I don't know what that is.
20:55:15 -!- ogrom has joined.
20:55:32 <Taneb> "Get out."
20:59:22 <boily> fizzie: wasn't "~" the worm, or am I getting my INTERCAL confused again?
21:02:44 <mroman> And I don't understand the WP article for gaussian distribution so...
21:02:55 <mroman> No idea :)
21:03:12 <Taneb> Basically, it's a continuous frequency distribution that's really useful
21:03:28 <Taneb> In that for sufficiently large samples, a LOT of things average to it
21:04:17 <Taneb> Goodnight
21:04:19 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:04:43 <fizzie> boily: I was looking at a HTML conversion of the manual. Maybe it got something wrong. ~ does sound more wormy.
21:05:13 <mroman> He really expect me to understand "continous frequency distribution"
21:05:23 <mroman> *expected
21:05:25 <fizzie> "In the dark, all distributions are normal." (An old adage.)
21:06:09 <oerjan> mroman: basically if you had any statistics course worth the name, you _would_ have heard of it.
21:06:24 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to cointegration.
21:06:34 -!- cointegration has changed nick to copumpkin.
21:06:37 <mroman> I hadn't.
21:06:41 <fizzie> I like to call it "the hump distribution", even though I suppose most of them are quite humpy.
21:07:04 <oerjan> mroman: also it's the same as what's called the "bell curve"
21:07:32 <mroman> Doesn't ring a bell (curve) ;)
21:07:48 <mroman> I never had statistics.
21:08:59 <oerjan> my laptop has started making these clicking sounds again :(
21:09:40 <oerjan> i hadn't really noticed that it had stopped for a long time, but now it's really irritating.
21:10:08 <fizzie> oerjan: You could say it's kind of like a non-cyclic version of the Von Mises-Fisher distribution, I'm sure that'd be helpful. (Not that they're directly related or anything.)
21:10:54 <oerjan> come to think of it, it used to happen when i was solving a lot of simon tatham's puzzles before...
21:11:02 <oerjan> and now i've started again.
21:11:11 <oerjan> fizzie: surely.
21:12:20 <oerjan> it's just the universe's way of telling me, "you can try as hard as you want to have fun; i will do _something_ to ruin the experience."
21:13:42 <fizzie> Those puzzles, if I recall correctly, do involve a lot of clicking.
21:13:59 <oerjan> that's not where the sound is coming from.
21:14:28 <fizzie> No, but it's the law of similarities. As above, so below. And all that.
21:15:00 <oerjan> i guess it's the disk which does it with a certain kind of access pattern.
21:15:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:15:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:16:04 * oerjan hits fizzie with an emerald table (^^^^)
21:16:21 <fizzie> I had a disk which did a horrible clicking. Or it was even more like a whirr-clunk kind of thing. (Sadly, I don't remember what happened in the end.)
21:16:46 <oerjan> oh wait it's supposed to be tablet, not table. sorry about that.
21:17:12 <fizzie> No worries, people hit me with tables all the time. (Not really.)
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22:02:10 <oklopol> http://xkcd.com/761/ i like to follow the hottest trends and be all hip and shit so here's an old xkcd; now isn't breadth-first search that you first date multiple people for a week one after another, then you date them the same people for two weeks, and so on, and depth-first search is where you're in a relationship until it goes bad
22:03:01 <oklopol> hmm okay maybe he means dating these people at the same time
22:07:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
22:27:40 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left).
22:36:41 -!- copumpkin has joined.
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22:57:57 <kmc> is this where i start an argument about monogamy
22:58:52 <oerjan> no. you can only start a monologue.
22:59:07 * kmc rimshot
23:01:56 <oklopol> what's your opinion on it?
23:03:27 <kmc> eh i think i will pass on this one
23:03:51 <oklopol> but i wanna know :(
23:04:24 <oklopol> i dated a polyamorist for two and a half years
23:04:37 <kmc> how did that work out
23:06:10 <oklopol> well for the first two years it was effectively just an open relationship, which was cool. then she got a second boyfriend and my world collapsed and shit.
23:06:36 <kmc> :/
23:06:45 <kmc> did you think you would be cool with it, and you turned out not to be cool with it?
23:06:46 <oklopol> so now i hate polyamory but am not really satisfied with a fully closed relationship.
23:07:05 <kmc> i think deciding you hate polyamory is an unreasonable generalization from that
23:07:10 <kmc> but understandable on an emotional level
23:07:13 <oklopol> i didn't understand someone could actually want multiple partners apart from sex until it was too late.
23:07:27 <kmc> my girlfriend broke up with her other boyfriend and i'm extremely bummed about it
23:07:51 <oklopol> sounds reasonable
23:07:51 <tidus21> lol
23:07:58 <kmc> loltidus
23:08:11 <tidus21> im not sure which comment is funny
23:08:16 <tidus21> the comment or the reply
23:08:18 <oklopol> i'm not a very social person, for me the point of a gf is to get to be alone with someone.
23:08:19 <kmc> how come your nick changed
23:08:25 <tidus21> typo
23:08:27 <kmc> mm
23:08:29 <tidus21> darn
23:08:30 <kmc> that's a good way to pu tit
23:08:31 <kmc> put it*
23:08:31 <oklopol> because being alone alone is lonely at times.
23:08:42 <tidus21> :|
23:08:53 -!- tidus21 has changed nick to ineedanick.
23:09:01 <kmc> i don't think i recognize a difference between a significant other and a really close friend who you also have sex with
23:09:10 -!- ineedanick has changed nick to uncertain21.
23:09:13 <kmc> /nick ineeddick
23:09:35 <uncertain21> yeah theres a lot wrong with ineeda**ck
23:10:26 <oklopol> well if we discount the sex thing, afaiu usually the difference is you have an implicit agreement to stay together through the hard times instead of always being with the partner that is currently the most satisfying.
23:11:16 <oklopol> or really that's just my opinion, not what i understand to be the case
23:11:24 <kmc> well i think close friends also stick together through hard times
23:11:29 <kmc> i only have a few close friends though
23:11:37 <oklopol> friendships can fade away
23:11:44 <kmc> so do relationships
23:12:20 <kmc> "til death do us part" is still a finite amount of time
23:12:21 <oklopol> i don't think so
23:12:50 <uncertain21> and the proper order of things is that the man dies a natural death first
23:12:59 <oklopol> i think crashing characterizes the ends of ideal relationships better.
23:13:15 <oklopol> you can't break up with a friend, nor do you have to. just don't see them.
23:13:32 <kmc> i think it's not the same for "close friends" whatever i mean by that
23:13:38 <kmc> it would be like breaking up
23:13:44 <oklopol> yeah i guess
23:14:01 <kmc> they would try to contact me and i would ignore them and we'd both get really sad
23:14:07 <kmc> that's a way to break up with someone
23:14:34 <oklopol> so why were you sad that she broke up with him?
23:14:44 <uncertain21> lol
23:15:05 <oklopol> i mean was it because you felt bad for her or something more practical
23:15:11 <uncertain21> my guess is that it's because suddenly he is burdened with her whole existence
23:15:23 <uncertain21> instead of having adapted to sharing part of her existence
23:15:32 <kmc> amazingly your ability to guess things correctly is not improved when you are talking about my personal life
23:15:47 <kmc> oklopol: a lot of reasons
23:15:55 <kmc> i feel sad when my friends are sad
23:15:58 <kmc> i'm close with both of them
23:16:11 <kmc> now i can't hang out with both of them at the same time
23:16:14 <uncertain21> like haskell, and lambda calculus, relationships are not something i have actually used
23:16:21 <kmc> also he's less friendly toward me, understandably so
23:16:49 <kmc> and i feel guilty too
23:16:50 <oklopol> did you have like casual threesomes and shit? wait that's a bit inappropriate perhaps.
23:17:03 <kmc> also i worry that she'll eventually dump me
23:17:09 <kmc> what do you mean by "casual"
23:17:24 <oklopol> just like, normal relationship shag.
23:17:34 <uncertain21> oklopol: yes... it was a binary tree sort of threesome, rather than a triangle
23:17:41 <kmc> shut the fuck up
23:17:47 <kmc> you are really getting to me
23:17:48 <uncertain21> no i mean in my life actually
23:18:21 <uncertain21> my friend and his gf.. when drunk
23:18:56 <kmc> uncertain21: congrats
23:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> wat
23:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> are you people talking about relationships
23:19:13 <kmc> oklopol: we had threesomes, i don't know what's "casual" about it as she was in a long term relationship with both of us
23:19:16 <uncertain21> its about the closest i get to a sex life
23:19:27 <kmc> there were other threesomes as well
23:19:32 <kmc> with other third parties
23:19:45 <kmc> a number of people had sex in various configurations and settings
23:19:56 <kmc> not including the back of a volkswagon
23:20:29 <oklopol> kmc: okay casual is perhaps a bad term for describing relationship sex, given that it basically means the opposit.
23:20:30 <oklopol> re
23:20:32 <oklopol> e
23:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> oh dear shit uncertain21 is iti oh dear
23:20:52 <oklopol> but i find it more casual than non-relationship sex.
23:21:09 <uncertain21> Phantom_Hoover: just force your memory to block it out
23:21:23 <kmc> oklopol: hmm, it's casual in another way, yes
23:21:31 <kmc> a nice way
23:21:32 <oklopol> iti is not a virgin?
23:23:00 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:23:14 <oklopol> so if your gf has multiple boyfriends, you aren't afraid that you're inferior to them and will lose her?
23:24:16 <kmc> well ideally no
23:24:27 <kmc> if your friend has other friends, do you worry similarly
23:24:35 <oklopol> i mean with monogamy, you don't have this problem, they can be sex-machines made of money and sexiness and she can't touch them. well unless you break up but the barrier is bigger, and she can't sample beforehand.
23:24:48 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:24:55 <kmc> people like having multiple friends because they get complimentary things out of each relationship
23:24:59 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
23:25:17 <kmc> and if your friends get along with each other as well, the whole is better than the sum of the parts
23:25:24 -!- azaq23 has joined.
23:25:26 <kmc> i don't see why "relationships" should be different
23:25:42 <uncertain21> oklopol: i don't count casual threesomes i'm involved in as real sex :P
23:25:43 <kmc> that said if you ask "do you worry that $x" to me, the answer is always "yes"
23:25:47 <kmc> i worry about everything all the time
23:25:49 <kmc> so yes
23:25:57 <uncertain21> it's just.. worse than nothing really
23:26:16 <kmc> i would never impose a rule that my girlfriend can't sleep with other people at all
23:26:19 <kmc> that is terrible
23:26:27 <kmc> i want her to be happy
23:26:39 <kmc> sleeping with other people from time to time is something which makes her happy
23:26:52 <kmc> and conversely for me
23:27:00 <oklopol> i don't worry about my friends, but i'm not sure i'm really bffs with anyone.
23:27:03 <mroman> Now I get what gaussian distribution is.
23:27:05 <oklopol> i mean that's just gay.
23:27:09 <kmc> -_-
23:27:10 <mroman> It's what xkcds random button is missing.
23:27:21 <mroman> It produces 23 all the time.
23:27:55 -!- uncertain21 has changed nick to itidus21.
23:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, wait did you just equate friendships to romantic relationships.
23:28:06 <oklopol> (that said, yes, i'm bisexual.)
23:28:20 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yes
23:28:36 <Phantom_Hoover> That's... quite a leap.
23:28:45 <kmc> i don't understand the difference anyway
23:28:56 <kmc> and i've been in several of what you'd probably call romantic relationships
23:29:00 <kmc> including currently for several years
23:29:27 <Phantom_Hoover> What about hormones and shit?
23:29:34 <kmc> what... about them?
23:29:39 <kmc> i don't really know how to respond to that statement
23:30:14 <itidus21> `pastlog <kmc.*itidus21
23:30:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm fairly sure there's a neurochemical difference between the two.
23:30:36 <kmc> there are people i'd like to have sex with but not be friends with, and vice versa
23:30:48 <HackEgo> No output.
23:30:51 <itidus21> `pastlog <kmc.*itidus21
23:31:02 <itidus21> i dunno if i'm doing this wrong
23:31:03 <kmc> i have friends who i would never have sex with but who give me the warm fuzzy "relationship" feeling
23:31:07 <HackEgo> 2012-06-28.txt:06:47:27: <kmc> itidus21: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbnjusltDHk
23:31:20 <kmc> anyway there are all sorts of neurochemical phenomena which i have no conscious access to
23:31:25 <itidus21> Phantom_Hoover: that link can explain hormones and shit
23:31:30 <kmc> clearly
23:32:08 <kmc> i am saying that i don't understand the difference, not that there isn't one
23:32:12 <kmc> maybe eventually i will understand the difference
23:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH the idea of romantic and sexual feelings being separate is hardly an unconventional one.
23:32:27 <kmc> but i have got this far in life without doing so, and not for lack of close friends or sex partners
23:33:04 <oklopol> i see the difference between friendship and relationship mostly as a contractual one
23:33:24 <oklopol> wait i guess i said that already
23:33:35 <kmc> i think there's an implicit contract in any close friendship, whether 'romantic' or not
23:33:44 <kmc> maybe this means i have 'romantic' non-sexual close frienships
23:33:45 <kmc> whatever
23:33:47 <kmc> terminology sucks
23:34:35 <kmc> the bit about friendships can fade and relationships can't is interesting, though
23:34:38 <kmc> i wil think about that more
23:34:41 <oklopol> i don't think i have an implicit contract with any of my friends
23:34:57 <oklopol> then again i don't have friends i don't just occasionally completely forget about for months.
23:35:24 <kmc> i have a few friends who i talk to practically every day
23:35:43 <kmc> constantly throughout the day i will see or do something and want to tell them about it
23:35:46 <oklopol> on the other hand when i then randomly call them i expect nothing to have changed so i'm probably wrong about this.
23:35:47 <kmc> so i'm thinking about them all the time
23:35:52 <itidus21> i don't have anyone outside of my family that i talk to offline
23:36:33 <itidus21> except people who i am paying for their time, or people who the government is paying for their time :P
23:36:37 <oklopol> itidus21: no talking during the threesomes? sorry, i can't get over this, it's so outside character.
23:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> wait what about the one with whom you had the threesome?
23:36:48 <itidus21> oh that....
23:36:52 <Phantom_Hoover> or was he a family member?
23:36:55 <oklopol> :D
23:37:01 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
23:37:14 <itidus21> ok.. i should add the constraint of for years
23:37:17 <oklopol> "except people who i am paying for their time"
23:37:32 * oerjan is starting to suspect that the clicking from his laptop is because for the first time in months it spends several seconds in a row _not_ doing disk I/O, so it actually gets parked... so something has stopped hogging the disk and it should be a _good_ thing. but damn that sound is irritating.
23:37:33 <Phantom_Hoover> friend whores
23:37:36 <oklopol> yes :D
23:37:51 <Phantom_Hoover> watch out for FTDs
23:37:57 <kmc> aka therapist
23:38:03 <oerjan> (sorry for not joining the sex talk)
23:38:06 <itidus21> paying for their time = doctors, people selling food
23:38:06 <kmc> they're highly trained though
23:38:07 <itidus21> :P
23:38:14 <kmc> like those $1,000/hr prostitutes
23:38:39 <oklopol> hehee FTDs
23:38:42 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you could hire one of those prostitutes for 3.6 seconds.
23:38:50 <oklopol> oerjan: please do
23:38:54 <itidus21> 1 prostitute.. she just didn't appeal to my twisted needs
23:39:04 <kmc> which are?
23:39:06 <oklopol> itidus has threesomes regularly, your turn to surprise us
23:39:49 <itidus21> no no.. there was only 2 .. and threesome only in a binary tree topology
23:39:55 <itidus21> lol
23:40:06 <oklopol> you mean you didn't have sex with the guy?
23:40:09 <itidus21> right
23:40:22 <oklopol> really, i would've never guessed
23:40:43 <itidus21> some things about me are best left unexplained
23:40:43 -!- Jafet has joined.
23:40:46 <oklopol> usually when two guys and a girl have a threesome, the guys can't stop kissing each other
23:41:46 <oerjan> you should all trust oklopol on this.
23:41:52 <kmc> can't tell if oklopol sarcastic or not
23:41:59 <kmc> pretty accurate in my experience
23:42:05 <oklopol> :P
23:42:15 <oklopol> oh you.
23:42:22 <oerjan> can't tell if oklopol and kmc or both sarcastic or not
23:42:26 <kmc> well i mean you eventually stop kissing
23:42:32 <kmc> to do other things with your mouths
23:42:33 <oerjan> *are
23:42:40 <itidus21> i have some mental issues to work through before i can enjoy sex
23:42:54 <kmc> :/
23:43:06 * kmc had some as well
23:44:25 <kmc> just remember it's not gay unless the balls touch
23:44:48 <oklopol> oerjan: i was being sarcastic, kmc wasn't
23:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> what if the penises touch
23:44:54 <oerjan> unless the balls touch what?
23:45:07 <oerjan> oklopol: OKAY
23:45:20 <kmc> i was not being sarcastic until the "balls touch" statement
23:45:30 <oklopol> that was clear
23:45:34 <kmc> ball touching is neither necessary nor sufficient for gayness
23:46:13 <itidus21> yeah... it's probably best if i don't explain any more
23:46:40 <oklopol> no it's not
23:46:46 <oklopol> we won't judge
23:47:23 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if penises touch, you're gay.
23:47:24 <itidus21> ive told other chatrooms every last detail about anything related to sex.. it's really not interesting
23:47:31 <oklopol> super gay.
23:47:48 <oklopol> can you paste the log?
23:47:54 <itidus21> lol
23:47:55 <itidus21> no
23:48:11 <oklopol> then why the long teaser
23:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> itidus21, I dunno, a lot of people find sex very interesting.
23:49:39 * oerjan tries disabling jqs as that seemed to run every few seconds.
23:49:40 <itidus21> women always keep their distance from me
23:49:44 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:49:50 <itidus21> ah, java quick starter
23:49:51 <oklopol> even prostitutes?
23:50:09 <Phantom_Hoover> That's where it went wrong.
23:50:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Getting close to iti was just too far.
23:50:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Too twisted.
23:50:44 <oerjan> itidus21: yep. i think it might be keeping the disk working unnecessarily, but not continuously, causing constant parking (i noticed the clicks seemed to happen a few seconds after jqs wakes up)
23:51:02 <oerjan> they still happen now, but not as frequently
23:52:17 <itidus21> shiit
23:52:50 <itidus21> ok to end the suspense
23:53:55 <itidus21> my first time was with this guys sister.. except since she acted like she was missing a few cards in her deck, it didn't go all the way
23:54:08 <oklopol> how far did it go and what age?
23:54:11 <itidus21> but the next day she said it did.. and started up about how i better not make her pregnant
23:54:21 <oklopol> oh
23:54:33 <oklopol> your penis didn't go all the way i guess
23:54:40 <itidus21> it was at this point i realized my memory isn't very good
23:55:23 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:55:31 <oklopol> i don't think i got it in on my first time. such a complicated process :D
23:56:06 <itidus21> first step was accidently trying to finger her urethra, until she explained my error
23:56:15 <oklopol> hehe :D
23:56:37 <oklopol> did you hear the story about the woman who used the urethra as a vagina
23:57:29 <oklopol> but yeah usually that's more like third date stuff so it's understandable if she got mad
23:57:58 <itidus21> also.. there was an awful squeaking noise when our bodies touched, like an armpit raspberry thing
23:58:48 <oklopol> and you were twelve so that was really bad?
23:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> argh
23:58:53 <itidus21> nah not 12
23:59:53 <oerjan> poor Phantom_Hoover
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