< 1343520241 620659 :impomatic!~digital_w@31.185.139.168 PART :#esoteric < 1343521877 290366 :clivebombejingle!~clivebomb@90.84.144.251 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343521991 423118 :clivebombejingle!~clivebomb@90.84.144.251 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aloha < 1343522083 375024 :clivebombejingle!~clivebomb@90.84.144.251 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343522705 807540 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Annoying thing about Tcl: Libraries that use callbacks can take the callbacks in several different forms, some of which are harder to deal with than others < 1343522718 200048 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The irc package in tcllib takes scripts < 1343522775 305456 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK so broken teabags are like 20% of what's wrong with the world. < 1343522824 476865 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-254-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: If by "scripts" you mean what I think you mean, that's by far the most normal means of callbacks. < 1343522826 490806 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily, it's trivial to live entirely without tea < 1343522842 667931 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, ah < 1343522856 840528 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, I'm under the impression that command prefixes are better < 1343522869 428593 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can pass a script to something expecting a command prefix via apply < 1343522901 571660 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And using apply like that also makes it easy for arguments provided by the callback to go into arbitrary places in the script < 1343522912 832209 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-254-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Keep in mind that apply is relatively recent. < 1343522957 781609 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the normal way to pass in arguments to scripts? Make commands that give the data in question? < 1343522981 996935 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-254-124.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, generally. < 1343523055 614557 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The normal way to have the callback include data specified when calling the thing that takes the callback is to make a proc and generate the script with [list]? < 1343523293 945584 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e.: < 1343523332 862244 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :somesnitobj registerevent someevent [list myhandler $data1 $data2] < 1343523339 570666 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e.g. not i.e.) < 1343524050 342050 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm pondering how to implement computation in Proce. < 1343524145 124227 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logic gates are easy enough to implement. Suppose that 0 and 1 represent true and false, respectively, and f and g are signals. < 1343524185 826353 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then NOT f is f - 1; f AND g is r!(f + g - 1); and... you can figure out the rest. < 1343524245 188365 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should in theory be possible to write long scripts in "[list ...];[list ...]..." form, right? < 1343524260 491480 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although probably not the best way to go < 1343524510 793891 :pikhq_!~pikhq@168-103-254-124.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1343524519 355796 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-137-121.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343524646 657528 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, you get arbitrary finite state machines for free. You can also create Minsky machine registers, if you have an exactly accurate clock. < 1343524658 145335 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :And from there, of course, you can create a Minsky machine. < 1343525983 264536 :tswett!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing logic gates like I said seems like cheating, though. It's not supposed to be possible to store information outside of i! signals. < 1343526197 140810 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1343526415 542361 :derdon_!~derdon@p5DE8B04A.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343526489 397171 :derdon_!~derdon@p5DE8B04A.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343526594 201956 :derdon!~derdon@pD9E1D5C8.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1343528737 160320 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is this a bad idea http://nopaste.dk/p13368 < 1343528821 31108 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1343528922 63727 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1343530669 426514 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1343535286 762758 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343535648 846615 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-140-27.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343535666 345602 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-137-121.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1343535705 586032 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: what does a monqy do. < 1343535721 28320 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1343535721 47914 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1343535996 781995 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :monqy: word problem: a train leaves London traveling at 5 knotts. The london skyline's width decreases at a rate of 0.25 centimeters per second. What is the circumfrence of the sun in the sky? < 1343536058 202646 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1343536066 561873 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct! < 1343536246 361248 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that if one knew the circumference of the sun in general it would be the correct answer < 1343536266 83889 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think it is too trivial a fact to keep < 1343536386 435703 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hichaf < 1343536422 413549 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: is your alt nick sha1chaf? < 1343536425 55072 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it should be < 1343536517 664486 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to devise a word problem where the facts given in the word problem seem completely unrelated to the question at the end < 1343536527 93319 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the answer can be accurately derived from the facts. < 1343536580 565028 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I know < 1343536588 730939 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the facts for the word problem can be < 1343536589 978141 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia < 1343536613 701867 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the question can be: "How do you distribute wealth equally among all people in the world?" < 1343536626 136508 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: It's not. < 1343536634 1139 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :himc < 1343536672 862031 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i found Xhorxh W. Bush Street < 1343537014 757020 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i speculate that you can't play google pacman on the namco offices in google maps street view < 1343537136 337940 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1343537180 926123 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :unaffiliated < 1343537208 525819 :unaffiliated!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :unaffiliated@unaffiliated/unaffiliated < 1343538186 68910 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The irc package in tcllib is disgustingly low-level < 1343538187 34524 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :$conn registerevent 001 [list $conn join $config(chan)] < 1343538193 935601 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^how to join a channel < 1343538229 776494 :unaffiliated!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: my perl bot is better yo < 1343538233 411374 :unaffiliated!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake NICK :kallisti < 1343539362 205826 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 NICK :detail_if_fan_u < 1343539673 113408 :detail_if_fan_u!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 NICK :itidus21 < 1343540259 362375 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1343540742 410895 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-183.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343540742 411130 :pikhq_!~pikhq@71-34-140-27.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1343542877 76612 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdnlfjkashjkfawihefwkalfra < 1343542880 652789 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to make an IRC bot < 1343542893 86973 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latest bug in millionth test: Arbitrary code execution < 1343543102 667675 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not arbitrary code, just arbitrary string commands < 1343543832 360637 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1343544827 170362 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have gotten some messages on nesdev about my improvements to PPMCK < 1343544963 638546 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people had their own improvements so some of them I have also added on to my program too, such as allowing #EX-VRC-VII as an alias to #EX-VRC7 < 1343545017 778063 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.phun.org/newspics/funny_friday_2/7065.jpg < 1343545020 686296 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :America in a nutshell < 1343545072 363990 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will they fit? < 1343545202 534851 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-183.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Well, if the whole universe can fit in a nutshell, surely just America can as well. < 1343545217 200299 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-183.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless perhaps ego has an anti-TARDIS effect on space. < 1343545244 852049 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-183.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space In Dimension Relative And Time? Yes, clearly that is the anti-TARDIS effect. < 1343545270 54306 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do Tumblr and Twitter not know how to send 304? < 1343545308 344815 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-183.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I presume not. < 1343545371 212690 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-229-19.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343545557 136644 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a anti-TARDIS effect? < 1343545602 321485 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-150-183.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1343545734 157715 :Jafet!~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1343545782 645242 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343546048 484576 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1343546125 347728 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343546728 630490 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343546733 25177 :pikhq_!~pikhq@70-56-229-19.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1343546739 90643 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-140-1.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343547028 593822 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have thought of idea of some kind of programming language for compression, having four blocks: Archive block, Control block, Compress block, Calculate block. < 1343547048 394565 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, and also Data block. < 1343547283 460476 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calculate block are pure functions. Compress block are always reversible programming. Archive block has no flow controls (and always halts), except it can call Control block (but cannot decide what to do from the result), and the Archive block can also set values of registers. < 1343547653 26202 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee NICK :Cornholio < 1343547662 909058 :Cornholio!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee NICK :ogrom < 1343548054 87635 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-151-216.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343548221 16430 :pikhq!~pikhq@71-34-140-1.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1343548308 94359 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean, the functions can be partial, but it is reversible when in range and otherwise error message if given wrong input. < 1343548463 359124 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a psychosimulator test? < 1343548630 718655 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1343549049 181534 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: when i saw this i thought you might like it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtbsje5dHtM < 1343549059 643554 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad. < 1343549095 581526 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be clear from 30 seconds in why < 1343549144 289295 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont like this sort of game at all < 1343549154 426958 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but someone linked this < 1343549176 600879 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop linking videos too much, especially YouTube < 1343549212 357660 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 8bit sound effects is only fun part < 1343549228 151925 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343549230 301009 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about that zzo38 < 1343549239 73189 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Morning, PH < 1343549262 557233 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello Taneb. < 1343549349 121451 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in an argument with someone < 1343549356 164615 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is claiming that the peano axioms are not a definition of the natural numbers < 1343549359 275356 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it defines other sets < 1343549361 674306 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as the powers of two. < 1343549363 983827 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1343549365 118803 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_< < 1343549373 942646 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They aren't < 1343549373 961077 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1343549375 805439 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it? < 1343549378 159405 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They contain, but aren't < 1343549381 822638 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1343549382 148391 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't even /have/ the powers of two < 1343549386 250854 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the natural numbers < 1343549387 568743 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seem to me that they don't < 1343549406 924588 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, hey now don't start getting all philosophical. < 1343549408 979389 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know they define natural numbers only < 1343549417 449954 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axioms one and six define the natural numbers < 1343549430 927067 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: this argument is entirely philosophical < 1343549439 222541 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you need more than just axioms one and six. < 1343549440 589531 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's about what defines something in mathematics. < 1343549446 435232 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In mathematical logic, the Peano axioms, also known as the Dedekind–Peano axioms or the Peano postulates, are a set of axioms for the natural numbers[...]" < 1343549489 669161 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, seven, I think you need too < 1343549550 900002 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think you need all of them if they are to define the natural numbers, without all of them there would be other things too which follow these axioms < 1343549561 4113 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1343549595 796078 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't really define the ordering of natural numbers with only the first and sixth axioms < 1343549609 65923 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sixth one only says "oh btw, if n is a natural, then so is S(n). good luck" < 1343549675 335518 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't say whether S(S(n)) is a distinct natural number from S(n) < 1343549686 71096 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, yeah < 1343549697 911832 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wrong, as usual < 1343549712 573700 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well duh, if you leave out the axioms defining the equality relation you don't have an equality relation. < 1343549723 853186 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, pretty much < 1343549739 920626 :ogrom!~del@143.122.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1343549775 557839 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need all the axioms to define the natural numbers, by definition. < 1343550052 172601 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think that math is arbitrarily defined? < 1343550089 269486 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh this conversation you're having sounds unbearable. < 1343550092 985952 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think most of math exists as it does because either a) it describes something with useful applications b) we find it aesthetically pleasing < 1343550105 325201 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and otherwise we could rearrange all the axioms arbitrarily < 1343550151 221186 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic portions of maths are based on the real world < 1343550156 929779 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's true. < 1343550160 577736 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a) really < 1343550168 806007 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I have three apples, and someone gives me two more apples, I have 5 apples < 1343550174 935391 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've defined math as it is because it describes a lot of shit we've encountered in the world. < 1343550176 669133 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a mysterious apple-donor < 1343550368 738290 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still... man-made < 1343550381 180030 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's claiming too much to say that math describes "universal truths" < 1343550415 914110 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any system with consistent axioms describes universal truths < 1343550423 813384 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net PART :#esoteric < 1343550510 491792 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the correct course of action when finding a typo in a paper written 62 years ago? < 1343550532 50779 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tippex and a steady hand. < 1343550561 183462 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lack both of those, and I'm reading it as a PDF < 1343550563 345676 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1343550602 49803 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps take a note of it somewhere < 1343550607 887154 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use PDF editing software! < 1343550652 505686 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Does the journal in which it was published still exist? < 1343550668 252777 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1343550691 605319 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be a transcription error, though :( < 1343550706 828306 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a pretty famous paper, so somebody's bound to have seen it before < 1343550724 556042 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computing Machinery and Intelligence by Alan Turing < 1343550885 260534 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Found another < 1343551512 262660 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Challenge: create a finite state automaton with lambda calculus at its core < 1343551533 985409 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I might need Haskell < 1343551547 361691 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I make so many dumb mistakes while programming, and Haskell catches them sooner < 1343551564 657975 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example? < 1343551577 355789 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 20 million bugs while writing my bot < 1343551584 81190 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1343551592 609784 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I have this problem with perl < 1343551593 624336 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forgetting $, putting it in the wrong place, not initializing an array consistently < 1343551594 432720 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not major. < 1343551627 779094 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, make global variables too easy, and I think I use them < 1343551658 545025 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Haskell because it's how I think < 1343551786 515094 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's a random '['! < 1343552036 729628 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1343552050 847679 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typos in this paper I am reading < 1343552055 213359 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1343552083 858837 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, maybe you've noticed that tendency I have to entertain multiple trains of thought simultaneously < 1343552096 241010 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And make no distinction between them while talking < 1343552215 213052 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen elliott < 1343552282 845252 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was here yesterday, I seem to recall < 1343552296 120142 :Vorpal_!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1343552319 313369 :Vorpal_!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal NICK :Vorpal < 1343552368 916369 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does windows insist on reinstalling drivers for an USB device if you connect it to a different port. What sort of crazy model requires that < 1343552391 820839 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows does < 1343552401 93057 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously < 1343552413 180942 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it doesn't apply to all devices, only most < 1343552419 286777 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even stranger < 1343552434 992310 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1343552439 667998 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343552444 108228 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1343552447 115346 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to work out why that happens < 1343552457 226029 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, you click the close button? < 1343552465 56235 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case you missed it: < 1343552466 889808 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : anyway it doesn't apply to all devices, only most < 1343552467 49244 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : which is even stranger < 1343552472 408607 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's me shift-clicking on the channel name < 1343552485 851266 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: Wychodzi < 1343552492 162527 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :try it again? < 1343552497 438069 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PART #esoteric :"Leaving" < 1343552502 876748 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343552506 334152 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there you are then < 1343552509 894275 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't shift click it < 1343552514 672320 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you shift click it anyway < 1343552520 789446 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not intentionally! < 1343552534 927113 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mouse is over the channel name, because I've just switched to it < 1343552535 253621 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: There's some sort of a port-specificness-weirdness also with the Windows drivers for the PS3 pad. It's certainly some kind of a thing. < 1343552548 56373 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, how can shift-click happen unintentionally? Shift clicking is not a common operation in most irc clients < 1343552561 600172 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm holding shift down because I'm typing a capital letter < 1343552575 626438 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "some kind of a thing"? < 1343552583 58212 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1343552583 392057 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, why do you type and click at the same time < 1343552583 552069 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I tap my laptop's touchpad? < 1343552599 992954 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, turn on the touch pad palm detection? < 1343552603 353901 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or turn off the touch pad < 1343552613 474641 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have the touch pad turned off, I use the trackpoint instead < 1343552626 329497 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't have a trackpoint, or a mouse lying around < 1343552662 721940 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed the problem < 1343552665 135205 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :palm detection then < 1343552671 663622 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disabled clicking with touchpad < 1343552673 574777 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even have touchpad. my only pointing device is trackpoint < 1343552688 735136 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now have to use the buttons just below the touchpad < 1343552709 694140 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The synaptics driver has some kind of a feature for autodisable-when-actively-typing, but I've never quite made it work. < 1343552728 265919 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :trackpoint is much nicer to use < 1343552787 293713 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :tapping to click with touchpad is quite bad too < 1343552793 982509 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it usually doesn't work properly < 1343552806 710314 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, indeed < 1343552817 330971 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like tap-to-click, and ~never have problems with it. YMMV. < 1343552827 268850 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone recently asked me how to click with a trackpoint. < 1343552834 693013 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They kept trying to press it. < 1343552839 194068 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually trackpoint is the biggest reason why I use this computer < 1343552847 123766 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing laptops with trackballs < 1343552851 938363 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been an early powerbook < 1343552863 793642 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and old pc laptops < 1343552865 608419 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1343552866 20589 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :The biggest reason I use this computer is because it's the fastest I have access to with working internet < 1343552866 188408 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There used to be laptops with balls, that's true. < 1343552895 126691 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be cool to have that as a scroll wheel in combination with a trackpoint for mouse movement < 1343552906 949498 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, modern thinkpads still have it < 1343552921 413886 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, so did a brand new toshiba netbook I recently interacted with < 1343552956 58220 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes but those also have trackpad that always gets in the way < 1343552956 366420 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't seen that many separate trackballs around either, lately. < 1343552970 230077 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, you can turn those off though easily in linux < 1343552979 18349 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, like I did on the thinkpad I'm typing on atm < 1343552997 680044 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I bet it works under windows too, since there is an fn-key for it < 1343553020 450399 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue why you would want stock windows on this though, it came with vista < 1343553041 808217 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: well what I meant by "trackpad that always gets in the way" I meant that they can't put large enough buttons under spacebar < 1343553054 458964 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that there are separate mouse buttons for the trackpad and trackpoint, and that the latter are often adjacent to the trackpad (right above it) puzzles me for some reason. (Obviously they're there for the positioning, but still.) < 1343553061 486510 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I don't find my buttons to be too small, let me take a photo. < 1343553076 995466 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes. trackpad would also randomly move your pointer < 1343553084 354563 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-95.elisa.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1343553098 466348 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow the dust certainly shows up in the camera < 1343553105 221552 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : nortti not if you turn that off < 1343553114 685025 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1343553116 292076 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides modern trackpads are not quite as terrible wrt that < 1343553157 680382 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I find new trackpads worse with that than old < 1343553216 932894 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example I never accidentaly moved mouse with my iBook G4 but I do it all the tine when I have to fix my sisters 2 years old hp laptop < 1343553225 467278 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time < 1343553231 506492 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gotten reasonably used to having a two-finger scroll on laptops too. (Don't interact with so many ThinkPads so don't really have a trackpoint habit.) < 1343553261 618786 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I had terrible problems with phantom movements on my first model ibook < 1343553268 780515 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one of those blue clamshell ones) < 1343553297 970154 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, and I guess it could be a issue with quality rather than modernness < 1343553303 933325 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely recall that I had to do something special to the G4 iBook in order to make a two-finger scroll happen. < 1343553304 875977 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :HP is not exactly high quality < 1343553311 222903 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: One day you'll quit every IRC channel. :-( < 1343553312 179735 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :a thinkpad is way better < 1343553334 357673 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I don't have problems with phantom movements on my Lenovo Thinkpad touchpad unless I put my palms on it. < 1343553343 149730 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I actually used iScroll2 mouse driver with my iBook that enabled two finger scrolling. I never got really used to it and I'd just always use arrow keys < 1343553344 542003 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that was the reason I turned it off, because doing so was way too easy < 1343553361 308868 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: Right, iScroll2, exactly. < 1343553384 507356 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, my dell latitude d610 (somewhat dated) has the touchpad slightly lowered into the palmrest, rather than at the same level < 1343553387 93963 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that helps a lot < 1343553392 176848 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it also has a trackpoint) < 1343553406 314309 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if iScroll2 works with my new iBook G3 (white) < 1343553411 840032 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't have to turn the touchpad off there, since you don't end up putting your palm on it < 1343553499 549874 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Supported models include most aluminum PowerBooks introduced from 2003 to 2004 as well as most G4 iBooks." < 1343553504 423444 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, not sure if this link will work for you. I hope it will: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/cmy7xsmk3xlxrci/CD5mgXYRV5 < 1343553524 401184 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, those buttons are just the right size for me < 1343553542 703688 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also middle mouse button < 1343553545 441892 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't live without it < 1343553550 24545 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I love this laptop < 1343553554 16093 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see photos) < 1343553556 755952 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what format id that picture? < 1343553565 98438 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I just left-and-right-click for that. < 1343553567 565129 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, format? It is a web album < 1343553573 196971 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, click on the images to see them < 1343553575 397492 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I took a few < 1343553597 234006 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I can't do that. It requires javascript < 1343553600 552867 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, just the standard dropbox auto-album for anything you put under Photos < 1343553605 801752 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have no idea how to middle-click in Windows on that laptop, though.) < 1343553628 508261 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, does this work? https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AAA2GwVU2_I-BqLTkFaePxHNgcq-s7yihQJIAtG1-hj5qQ/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111221.jpg/lzLGnpTgvMZ-Eus5EQpZJZUnvmZ0d2ZyU7eEvkV-64Q?size=800x600 < 1343553631 26241 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and https://photos-6.dropbox.com/thumb/AADUvhtK7AOFlYVZCxbyUvJLQbbavq4pI_Lf-aWjvVwebA/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111227.jpg/0696oNZ4gQ5KhrnPBAqT3bcOxmRQ5SXfdfZsO1lz4Lo?size=800x600 < 1343553640 548613 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also https://photos-2.dropbox.com/thumb/AABwx8n-oZ_Fq62CrCyhLgUiQm3ekERxOSeJTBCwgJht9w/87474461/jpeg/o/2/1343557081/0/2/20120729_111239.jpg/bEx8pgZLQvGYh2iDmLqkddqCv_Sqzpg9MhoFUC584sM?size=800x600 < 1343553650 14985 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, if those don't work then I don't know < 1343553652 402318 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343553745 491506 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: they work. how large is that thinkpad? < 1343553768 741026 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, 15.4" < 1343553778 605308 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. then those buttons are tiny < 1343553778 646470 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, 16:10 screen < 1343553789 965358 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, anyway the keys on the keyboard are full size < 1343553802 323088 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the letter and number ones < 1343553806 142159 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously not the arrow keys < 1343553830 590758 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, anyway I have huge hands and I have no issues with those buttons < 1343553879 357592 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I can reach from fn to p with my right hand. (fn to o comfortably) < 1343553895 610068 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8B04A.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343553901 646009 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fn to ĂĄ if I don't have to be able to press down the key < 1343553920 864454 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think all thinkpad keyboards are sized for the smallest thinkpad models < 1343553946 588851 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: on T20 my left and right mouse buttons are bit larger that all of the mouse buttons and middle buttons is under them and is is around the same size as all of your mouse buttons < 1343553966 116583 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, well the keys on the main area of the keyboard have the same size as the keys on my full size PS/2 keyboard that I use for my desktop < 1343553970 5587 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*left and right mouse button combined < 1343553987 258755 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, not as deep obviously, but the same area for the raised bit < 1343554005 154100 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :also my T20 lacks screen and battery < 1343554021 461128 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, this is an R500 btw < 1343554046 851191 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, your mouse buttons must cover most of the area below the keyboard then? < 1343554050 691499 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, can you take a photo < 1343554085 384019 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't have camera on my phone < 1343554093 183050 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343554100 393230 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, thought you had an old android one? < 1343554105 808830 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :upload over wifi? < 1343554108 115927 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the key area is 6 cm x 1.8 cm < 1343554143 213848 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I'm pretty sure that the Android compatiblity spec said "has a camera" until like 4.0 or 4.1 < 1343554170 228362 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(same for "has wifi" until 3.0 I believe?) < 1343554195 791416 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes. I have HTC Widlfire but it doesn't work very well. I can try it later when it strarts charging the battery < 1343554215 23609 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm then the smallest one must be like 14" based on my keyboard < 1343554221 475906 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 13" < 1343554251 522232 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my 15" T20 keyboard spans the entrire width of thre laptop and keys are full size < 1343554262 101435 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, you should get one of the crazy thinkpads. With the butterfly keyboard < 1343554270 41085 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1343554275 371585 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they are awesome < 1343554282 83273 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't those old < 1343554291 473246 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meanj like 90's old < 1343554300 400653 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mean < 1343554319 331188 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, full size keys here again, except for the F-keys, esc, the windows keys, prtsc,scrlk,pause,insert,delete,home,end,pgup,pgdn and the arrow keys < 1343554333 362610 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and those keys below shift and above the left and right arrows < 1343554339 752005 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are "back" and "forward" < 1343554344 336175 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of neat < 1343554351 131566 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :works to switch tabs in kate < 1343554357 556255 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also back/fwd in browser < 1343554376 846749 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread "keyboard spans the entrire width of three laptops". < 1343554381 907521 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's be quite a keyboard. < 1343554391 867973 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1343554404 815793 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it would be a butterfly style keyboard < 1343554417 10073 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the laptop would have infinite width < 1343554432 538678 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you obviously measure the width of the laptop based on a folded up laptop < 1343554432 594814 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. I also have not-completely-full-size-but-almost keys for esc, F keys, SysRq, SrcLk, Break , Insert, Delete, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn < 1343554462 423464 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343554482 562301 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, my F-keys are only slightly less wide but about half the height < 1343554503 489284 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :esc is a bit taller than that < 1343554510 367650 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 2/3 of a normal key < 1343554514 496645 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with T20 < 1343554527 915359 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, do you have hardware volume buttons too < 1343554532 17888 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1343554537 842015 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :All keys on this things next to me are full-size-when-it-comes-to-width, but the top row (esc, f1-f12, sysrq, break, ins/del, / and * from numpad) is a bit less tall than the others. Maybe that 2/3rds. < 1343554556 496610 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ar maybe I had at the empty holes at the top of the keyboard < 1343554557 365354 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw my old dell laptop has both hardware volume buttons and volume on fn-combos < 1343554558 366154 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :*or < 1343554559 964885 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea why < 1343554568 856461 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lacks screen brightness on fn though < 1343554592 601975 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: My old laptop (the model of which I've forgotten) has a hardware volume *knob*. Now *that's* retro. < 1343554602 681458 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1343554606 97619 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that was awesome < 1343554623 386282 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I normally like my volume below the lowest step < 1343554624 938433 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :on anything < 1343554636 400994 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, why is everything so god damn loud < 1343554639 883551 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess "knob" is a bit of a wrong word since it's a sunk-in thing. But a thing you rotate. (Awkwardly.) < 1343554653 150572 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to use the equaliser settings on my phone to counteract the loudness for example < 1343554665 120484 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I set everything in the equaliser down as far as possible < 1343554681 160159 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :then music is about the right volume in the headphones < 1343554701 526854 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I remember seeing that on an old toshiba < 1343554705 887001 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have alsamixer at about 80% and mplayer at 39% < 1343554711 329561 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, whoa < 1343554742 223286 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I do turn it up a bit when I'm in a loud environment, normally one or two steps, not much anyway < 1343554750 530406 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the volume control on my headphones at the lowest setting possible < 1343554755 383633 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343554761 68237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: It's a Toshiba Tecra 730CDT, apparently. < 1343554794 134112 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't remember what toshiba it was I saw it on < 1343554799 432185 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.recycledgoods.com/product_images/b/886/s_p_10719_1__07188_zoom.jpg -- the knob is up there. < 1343554806 753589 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did they make a series called Satellite or something? < 1343554810 209715 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1343554810 857565 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that might have been it < 1343554824 934215 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, probably was around 2000-2004 or so < 1343554832 408666 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay your one is even older I bet < 1343554838 70798 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is from 1996. < 1343554848 567587 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343554849 708885 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Raw speed. A 150 MHz Intel Pentium processor and PCI bus provide the kind of speed that would have been practically unthinkable in a notebook PC. Until today! Now there's the Tecra 730CDT." < 1343554853 615121 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that is one awesome laptop < 1343554858 197362 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(From Toshiba's product page.) < 1343554865 910315 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: Mine doesn't have a battery, though. < 1343554869 276914 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they called them notebook then? < 1343554878 874576 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: how much memory does it have? < 1343554886 618242 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: "And the hard disk and memory capacity are also pushing back the boundaries of what you thought possible: the 2.16 billion byte hard disk and 16 MB EDO RAM (expandable up to 144 MB - yes that's one hundred and forty four MB) will take care of the most complex programs and data-hungry applications - no problem." < 1343554888 621428 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was a word invented after the stuff about "uh, it is bad to use it in your lap" < 1343554898 188102 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: I think 32 or 48 in my particular case. < 1343554917 46500 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the "2.16 billion byte hard disk" part. < 1343554927 71938 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow a billion bytes is much more impressive than a gigabyte. < 1343554929 533160 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok. it fits inside my processing power requirement < 1343554932 473275 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so that is... 216 MB? < 1343554939 883943 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1343554943 275793 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.16 GB < 1343554943 476263 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two gigs. < 1343554945 263828 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343554956 587383 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Communications are just as easy on the Tecra 730CDT, with 2 PC-card slots and the integrated 28.8 kbps modem with full telephony functions (including hand-free and answer-phone options). The built-in infra-red port even makes cable-free data transfer with printers or other PCs possible. A further highlight of the Tecra 730CDT is the 6-speed CD-ROM drive. And when you want to use the floppy ... < 1343554963 195915 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... disk drive, all you do is swap them over. Or simply attach the floppy disk drive externally. < 1343554966 194116 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multimedia heaven is complete with the super-sharp 12.1-inch SVGA screen and a resolution of 1024 x 768 pixels. The PCI-bus, special graphics drivers and 2 MB Video RAM guarantee you the ultimate in visual experiences." < 1343554975 712863 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-149-174.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343554977 595927 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hey you could hook it up to my dell, it has IRDA too < 1343554993 719631 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1024x768! that is the resolution of my iBook G4's screen < 1343555002 872908 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: It's got two megs of video memory, so you can't run 1024x768 in truecolor. 64k colors is fine, though. < 1343555016 762984 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm my dell can attach it's ultrabay-style floppy drive externally via USB too < 1343555027 834822 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: does it have ethernet? < 1343555029 565712 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I don't have a floppy drive for this either, actually. < 1343555036 590357 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that dell is quite strange, a lot of hardware on it seems very thinkpad-ish < 1343555044 386818 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: Not built-in, but I have a CardBus card in it. < 1343555051 688485 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the trackpoint and the ultrabay < 1343555065 744567 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool. I could use that computer as my main machine < 1343555083 52985 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A D-Link one that has a full-sized RJ45 port right in the proturding thick part; I have some 3com pcmcia cards that use an adapter cable instead, and those are always breaking/getting lost. < 1343555084 714383 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, fancy, my ibook (g3) had 800x600 < 1343555113 480943 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343555134 181850 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: my iBook g3 has 1024x768. it is the white 500MHz one < 1343555138 962096 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343555139 868068 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: The HD is not the original model, though; I think it's something slightly smaller than two gigs. < 1343555191 458170 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've last used this for something that needed a DOS and a serial port. < 1343555207 143988 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :do modern PCs still have an ISA bus? I know my laptop does (I believe there are some hardware sensors on it) but I don't remember if my desktop does < 1343555210 189113 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't check on it atm < 1343555210 714262 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd boot it up to see what it's running except I'm not entirely sure where I stored the charger. < 1343555217 553391 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :my desktop uses EFI and what not < 1343555231 833138 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are you back from Belgium then? < 1343555233 813675 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: the toilet seat ones have the 800x600 screen also used in PowerBook G3 "mainstreet" but later ones use same screen as "wallstreet" pb g3s < 1343555242 889382 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, you mean clamshell? < 1343555247 502416 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes < 1343555249 356512 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yes, arrived late last Friday. < 1343555254 300986 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1343555281 130033 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I believe they often have a thing that looks like an ISA bus programmatically (e.g. for those sensors), but I'm not sure you can count that as a real ISA bus. Maybe so. < 1343555317 235344 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sensors on this desktop are hooked to an IT8718 chip connected via "ISA". < 1343555349 878209 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes it's some sort of a smbus/i2c thing instead, though. < 1343555358 888544 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my laptop has both an ISA bus and an SMbus < 1343555375 68954 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation ICH9M LPC Interface Controller (rev 03) < 1343555375 221331 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) SMBus Controller (rev 03) < 1343555387 35489 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:14.0 SMBus: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 SMBus Controller (rev 3a) < 1343555388 530250 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :sensors seem to be on isa though < 1343555389 384039 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:14.3 ISA bridge: ATI Technologies Inc SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller < 1343555400 852956 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel graphics on this one < 1343555531 223919 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the laptop: < 1343555531 798237 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation HM65 Express Chipset Family LPC Controller (rev 05) < 1343555535 403182 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family SMBus Controller (rev 05) < 1343555542 172714 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343555548 875784 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :intel graphics? < 1343555552 594713 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nnno. < 1343555557 933073 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just an Intel chipset. < 1343555560 407384 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the multitude of n? < 1343555587 357417 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX AGP bridge (rev 03) < 1343555590 382112 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:02.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1450 (rev 03) < 1343555597 44206 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, in the "nnno". Well, nnno particular reason. I was just thinking. < 1343555606 888625 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, 15:00.0 CardBus bridge: Ricoh Co Ltd RL5c476 II (rev ba) < 1343555621 365679 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343555628 590806 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I have Express Card too < 1343555637 64141 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't spot it in lspci though < 1343555658 606985 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :one PC Card slot and one Express Card slot < 1343555699 982537 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, displayport or hdmi? < 1343555711 359901 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell zzo38 Prelude.Generalize.choice is identical to Data.Foldable.asum, which Prelude.Generalize exports anyway < 1343555711 378972 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1343555726 424044 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: On the laptop? There's HDMI, DVI and VGA ports, IIRC. < 1343555735 35823 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, DVI on a laptop? < 1343555741 26994 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what sort of monster is that < 1343555766 488730 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose they had space left over. < 1343555770 614295 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, where? < 1343555782 304525 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the back. It's kind of a big laptop. < 1343555786 281679 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be < 1343555791 638590 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, just 15.4", but kinda on the thick side. < 1343555799 34231 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1343555807 683827 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really carry this one around. < 1343555811 159641 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have power and modem on the back. On and the battery slides in from the back too < 1343555817 247680 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, then why laptop < 1343555827 702505 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :a desktop monitor would be ergonomically better < 1343555844 264201 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I sometimes do want to take it with me, e.g. for trips like this Belgium thing. < 1343555856 356318 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1343555866 119039 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh was this that custom made one from Germany? < 1343555884 614496 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that someone else < 1343555892 341085 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "custom made" is perhaps a bit of an overstatement, but yes, it had some custom component selection involved, and it did come from germany. < 1343555902 566028 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343555944 871930 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The base laptop is fixed, I just got to choose what sort of graphics card, HD, wifi things etc. went into it. < 1343555947 195561 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I use desktop monitor with my T20 because original screen was partly nonfunctional and it fell of at the hands previuos owner < 1343555956 42778 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how hard it would be to buy components and build your own laptop... I guess finding a laptop case might be the hardest part < 1343555972 593304 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess they aren't really standardlized, so probably custom mobo then too < 1343555981 143189 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: there are instructions how to build one around beagleboard < 1343556011 247157 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :beagleboard hm < 1343556013 80256 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is that < 1343556015 712240 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I think you can buy the same "skeleton" that was used for this laptop even as a regular customer, though that's of course only about halfway building your own laptop. < 1343556017 168398 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it like the pi? < 1343556028 77081 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: yes but more expensive < 1343556031 865406 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343556036 860800 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ARM based < 1343556046 515676 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So's the Pi. < 1343556050 193615 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: and it has faster processor and it is ARMv7 < 1343556058 492609 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, I meant for a higher end laptop. Something with maybe a x86 and nividia or AMD graphics < 1343556080 324502 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes of course < 1343556095 204536 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: that will be hard < 1343556101 659564 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did the skeleton include the mobo? < 1343556106 512750 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, indeed < 1343556178 220873 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, because I don't think laptop mobo form factor is standarlised < 1343556195 534639 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Sure. It's got the case (with the display panel) and the motherboard; then you plug in a graphics card using that whatever-it-was thing they have for laptops; some memory; there's I guess minipci slots for wifi; a slot for a 2.5" SATA disk; and I think that's about it for the customization. The optical drive is also part of the thing, since it needs to fit the chassis. < 1343556222 730065 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The front is sloped to match and so on. < 1343556248 178574 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there's not terribly much you can change. I guess the graphics card is pretty much the major piece. < 1343556252 182650 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no ultrabay? < 1343556266 619857 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I guess battery must be custom made for it too < 1343556282 127235 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can have an UltraBay if you're not a ThinkPad. < 1343556289 335608 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I'm sure they have patents or whatnot on it. < 1343556309 902916 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A thing called UltraBay, I mean. < 1343556319 450238 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure it is probably trademarked < 1343556328 556132 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have the same idea anyway < 1343556331 662654 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :my old dell has < 1343556332 694007 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There could obviously be some sort of a different swappable slot, but that'd be proprietary too. < 1343556354 279266 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but it's still limited to different parts from the same company. < 1343556359 192863 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1343556360 280217 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does the optical drive do DVD-RAM? < 1343556393 159485 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it does. Anyway, they do have a selection. It's not exactly UltraBay-like in that it's not hotswappable, but they have a selection. < 1343556394 166361 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do: $ cd-info | grep DVD-RAM < 1343556401 328989 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have ordered this with a bluray thing. < 1343556412 968800 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-15-174.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343556416 975302 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a "cd-info". < 1343556438 888634 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm let me see which package it is from < 1343556439 698821 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/jWZa < 1343556450 884510 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :libcdio-utils on Ubuntu, apparently. < 1343556464 302755 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343556469 873875 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is still searching < 1343556471 943449 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow disk < 1343556479 592369 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :libcdio-utils: /usr/bin/cd-info < 1343556480 239116 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1343556498 725733 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: http://sprunge.us/hIIK from cdrecord -prcaps. < 1343556506 398656 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/caps/cap/ < 1343556545 122720 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It continues a whole lot longer, but those were the most interesting parts, perhaps.) < 1343556557 61869 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does not read CD bar code <-- huh? < 1343556564 854138 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from that command's output on my laptop) < 1343556568 100395 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine doesn't either. < 1343556568 255676 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :CD bar code? < 1343556579 796703 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there's some kind of weird standard. < 1343556586 513460 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it's written in the rim or something. < 1343556591 579251 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :the full output of mine http://sprunge.us/ZRHY < 1343556629 92465 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, http://sprunge.us/GfZF for comparison purposes. < 1343556659 349629 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is R-W subcode? < 1343556670 715799 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've known that, but forgotten. < 1343556678 277351 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's all kinds of complications in the CD standards. < 1343556686 152504 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition to the main data bit. < 1343556707 219515 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343556711 850958 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that some of these things were relevant when it came to getting PSX disk images done correctly. < 1343556795 655934 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1343556823 126036 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are subchannels P, Q, R, S, T, U, V and W; P and Q are somewhat standard (and related to audio CD positioning, apparently) but the R-W subchannels are unused in the basic audio CD standard. < 1343556830 977086 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extensions (and copy protection schemes) use those, though. < 1343556844 234463 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1343556865 137255 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so if the drive can't read them, the copy protection could not check them I guess? < 1343556886 859647 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why the drive simply can't return a raw data stream of the disk < 1343556890 689857 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be so much easier < 1343556911 553693 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. And in the case of the PSX, it also means you couldn't use the drive to make a copy that'd work in the original device, since the drive in that can read those. < 1343556928 326863 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1343556942 744086 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :how advanced is PSX emulation these days? < 1343556967 700876 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good enough, I'd suppose. < 1343556973 424306 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do PS2 these days too. < 1343556991 585138 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1343557010 679204 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't it have too many co-processors all running on the same clock line or something? < 1343557011 167254 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. I've played through FFX and a large part of FFXII with PCSX2 on the laptop we were speaking about. < 1343557032 199168 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not perfect, but "high-profile" things are playable. < 1343557040 912932 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do quite a lot of recompilation and whatnot there, though. < 1343557069 869465 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343557074 101010 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also offloading things on the GPU. At least based on the configuration menus; haven't looked closer than that. < 1343557116 790595 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Original PSX is probably a solved problem. There's a PSX emulator in the N900 repositories. < 1343557125 823708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't tried it, and that might not work so well, but it exists. :p < 1343557129 70748 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1343557155 360649 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you happen to know anything about video for linux? < 1343557170 446833 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've written some code for the API, and it wasn't very pleasant, but that's about it. < 1343557170 767637 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of kernel framework for cameras < 1343557184 501438 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh is it a standard API for all devices or a different one for each device? < 1343557222 449610 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's standard as seen from the userland side. But I'm under the impression there's all kinds of messiness there to account for the widely different hardware. < 1343557227 964915 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343557235 71110 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm trying to figure out if it would be possible to extract raw data from my phone camera < 1343557243 4047 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've smungled video capture cards and webcams and digital-TV devices all under the same thing. < 1343557258 999286 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That depends on what the driver exports via V4L, I suppose. < 1343557260 861560 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :the drivers are badly commented for it and not in the standard kernel tree < 1343557274 538038 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are in the samsung open source kernel dump thingy < 1343557297 870511 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised I really needed documentation for the hardware to understand it < 1343557298 195878 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can query the capabilities via the standard API, you could start with that. < 1343557303 178941 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do you do that? < 1343557317 181244 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where is the v4l docs < 1343557324 801384 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd need to write a bit of code. Or, well, find some sort of a utility APP, I'm sure there's one. < 1343557342 118347 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I do have a cross compiler setup < 1343557353 11778 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not an issue, I might need to copy some headers < 1343557357 271628 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/APP/app/, I don't know why I capitalized it. < 1343557362 263844 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/ for V4L2, apparently. < 1343557371 866226 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :bytesex, really... < 1343557374 540671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember I've used the wiki that's linked from there. < 1343557389 978403 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's on linuxtv.org, they have a lot of V4L-related stuff there. < 1343557397 877573 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :god damn, what a massive spec < 1343557400 736476 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure if there's an API reference, though. < 1343557458 265455 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a lot of ioctls, that's for sure. < 1343557487 579699 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have an issue with ioctls < 1343557523 247840 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a piece of code to feed /dev/random with (hashed) bits from noise from a webcam. (There are quite a few other such pieces of code too.) < 1343557527 997673 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it was two ioctls for the actual photo bit, a bit more for either setup or preview. (I used strace on the camera app yesterday) < 1343557537 15880 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-2-141-48.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343557575 438373 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure there's also v4l-oriented libraries that try to make things better, and those might have better API docs too. < 1343557585 137488 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-149-174.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1343557585 779245 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :any recommendations < 1343557591 8338 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that API seems horrible < 1343557601 169794 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of them; the single webcam-related software I did just spoke raw V4L2. < 1343557660 481143 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was that v4l or v4l2? < 1343557669 964389 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :2, I don't think 1 is very current at all. < 1343557697 286330 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1343557725 693049 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :mplayer has a V4L2 input driver which you could possibly also abuse to find out what you can get from the card, though it's kind of video-oriented. (I'm sure someone's compiled mplayer for your thing already.) < 1343557792 921846 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's very possible that the driver doesn't export the raw sensor data over V4L. You need a custom camera driver on the N900 to get that kind of stuff. (Then again, it still might.) < 1343557816 241474 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343557845 447476 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think the preview image arrives at the android API level as RGBA data (still not raw, but at least uncompressed). < 1343557859 623218 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the JPEG compression you might be able to avoid. < 1343557867 936910 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes there is a jpeg folder in the samsung kernel code bit < 1343557871 109569 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which worries me < 1343557915 741406 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, then again it might do jpeg even before the kernel level, since there are some references to hwjpeg in the user space *.so file for the camera. < 1343557929 904813 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's possible, yes. < 1343557930 227860 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that might just be a hardware accelarator called from the kernel < 1343557936 11424 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it might even refer to another model < 1343557941 110410 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just reusing the same *.so < 1343557969 520300 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The N900 does JPEG on the DSP chip, but I believe the userland camera app just calls into that, after getting uncompressed RGB from the camera. Haven't looked at it closely. < 1343557990 823249 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find source code for the user space part of it < 1343558004 395626 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :CM9 build script just copies that file from a stock rom XD < 1343558009 952974 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a cheapo webcam here which does JPEG already on the camera side, and (as far as I know) doesn't support returning non-uncompressed stuff at all. < 1343558031 511257 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The V4L api has image formats for things returning JPEG-compressed stuff, so it's possible to do it in the driver. < 1343558042 234731 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343558044 893376 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And of course it could be using a custom extension if V4L didn't have a standard for it.) < 1343558053 330150 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so how would I go about figuring out if it is possible < 1343558063 925807 :ogrom!~del@gprs-inet-65-95.elisa.ee QUIT :Quit: Left < 1343558066 718150 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that API looks horrible < 1343558107 986255 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :where are the headers for v4l < 1343558111 28431 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find them < 1343558134 581220 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh videodev2.h < 1343558180 285558 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8B04A.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343558276 542483 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow... I was wondering why tab complete for ~/src was broken. Turned out I was sshed to the wrong system < 1343558292 833645 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a host name of about the same length < 1343558299 9758 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the same prompt colouring < 1343558342 867287 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If strace supports logging read(2) data into file, you could also do that, take a picture, then try to see if there's some kind of a full-frame sized (sequence of) reads that looks like raw RGB data. < 1343558407 172900 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, thing is, the process issuing ioctls to the device file never read from it < 1343558410 253814 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I could tell < 1343558421 25097 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1343558449 634020 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. Well, it could have some sort of a camera daemon involved. I'unno. < 1343558539 95701 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm my compiler errors out on including linux/videodev2.h < 1343558555 312958 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :with field timestamp having incomplete type < 1343558580 589319 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh timeval < 1343558584 229277 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which header is that < 1343558617 21331 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1343559078 102471 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what, why is open() in a different header than close()? < 1343559141 107324 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you know why? < 1343559360 85365 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, though they're not exactly coupled. I mean, you can close anything (so unistd is a reasonable place for it), but you can open only files. < 1343559384 257287 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Reflects existing practice" is probably the official (un)reason. < 1343559561 672143 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "ultra high speed +" in that cdrecord -prcap output is approaching Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo levels of nomenclature. < 1343559579 30353 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I read the caps successfully and it returned what I expected, that just lists the name of it though < 1343559597 293828 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1343559623 704475 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, USB is having the same issue < 1343559645 333753 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do they keep inventing names like that for USB. Everybody just calls it USB2 or USB3 < 1343559740 433711 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: have you ever looked at display resolution names < 1343559754 377220 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the video capture interface had a separate query-capabilities thing, but maybe it just has the really awkward thing where you probe with VIDIOC_TRY_FMT to find how high you can go. < 1343559949 291951 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, yes. I tried to forget I did. < 1343559964 423581 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, it was okay when it was VGA and SVGA. Then it got absurd < 1343559989 746368 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm I'm looking at the general capability thing so far only < 1343559996 464053 :impomatic!~digital_w@31.185.139.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343560001 708494 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I want to use it anyway to find out why I have so many /dev/video* < 1343560024 513539 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: How many is so many? < 1343560029 173350 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is output of some sort, since the android window compositor (called surfaceflinger) has it open < 1343560048 485525 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/video0 /dev/video11 /dev/video16 /dev/video20 < 1343560048 503963 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/video1 /dev/video12 /dev/video2 /dev/video3 < 1343560049 946265 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there < 1343560059 992632 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite many. < 1343560082 818858 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, here is the /sys info about them: http://sprunge.us/WCjS < 1343560096 541138 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, video0 is the back camera, video1 is the user facing camera < 1343560121 752854 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :surfaceflinger uses video2 and video16 < 1343560121 956967 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one is the one the window compositor has open? < 1343560123 862013 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1343560140 60130 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have no idea what those virtual ones are < 1343560151 146061 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: what is wrong with WHUXGA (Wide Hexadecatuple Ultra Extender Graphics Array)? < 1343560193 476808 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of them could be a V4L2 video overlay thing, I suppose. Though I'm not so sure why. < 1343560236 755543 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well WHUXGA, es un estándar de pantalla que puede soportar una resolución máxima de 7680 × 4800 pixels, con una relación de 16:10! < 1343560264 263011 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Un monitor de 7680 × 4320, podría considerarse también como un WHUXGA < 1343560269 264201 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that spanis? < 1343560276 59832 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :+h < 1343560278 994087 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but i don't understand it < 1343560282 114385 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, ouch < 1343560340 343333 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, video11 driver is s5p-jpeg < 1343560342 929694 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is < 1343560351 22551 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for video12 < 1343560369 577454 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :video16 driver is s5p-tvout-tvif < 1343560382 38242 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :card is "Samsung TVOUT TV Interface" < 1343560394 123530 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, messy. < 1343560404 754442 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only a video0 and video1 on the N900; I suppose corresponding to the front and back cameras. < 1343560415 210867 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the TV-out is handled differently. < 1343560417 62650 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, video20 is s5p-tvout-vo, and "Samsung TVOUT Video Overlay" < 1343560443 155298 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than the tv out stuff, none of the devices reported useful "card" values < 1343560462 197728 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :either just the same as the driver name, or something similar < 1343560483 304431 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHUXGA is a display standard that can support a resolution maximum of 7680 x 4800 pixels , with a ratio of 16:10. A monitor of 7680 × 4320, could also be considered as a WHUXGA < 1343560495 582256 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm google translate did really well on that < 1343560544 926928 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://sprunge.us/XWQe (haven't written code to decode capabilities yet) < 1343560557 374316 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you stringify arguments in CPP now again < 1343560559 42411 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it ##? < 1343560562 526541 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :#. < 1343560566 21023 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :## is token-pasting. < 1343560573 494842 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :#. or just #? < 1343560580 144446 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just '#'. < 1343560582 547030 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1343560587 536816 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Curse my proper punctuation.) < 1343560731 95089 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :english hasn't really prepared itself for having notations embedded within it < 1343560779 668754 :nortti-!nortti@ie.freebnc.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :g 24 < 1343560834 729323 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :g 23 < 1343560840 463681 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1343560845 504173 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, I guess the cross compiler header doesn't match my system header < 1343560853 420658 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :some defines give errors < 1343560880 136069 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it is different, stripped of all comments for a start < 1343560880 784087 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1343560933 440816 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Chuck says, ""Hello, world", and then he quotes me as saying "Chuck, I want you to print "Hello, world!""" < 1343560933 659223 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Optomized for compilation speed. :p < 1343560949 463554 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those capabilities are kinda weird if I look at my own . The 0x40000000 and 0x08 bits that most of them have don't match anything, and they all have V4L2_CAP_VBI_CAPTURE and V4L2_CAP_VBI_OUTPUT set, which sounds pretty strange. < 1343560950 450335 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think what i just said doesn't count as good writing < 1343560970 138390 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :my phone has a newer kernel than my desktop. But I guess the header might be older, from whatever oldest version the NDK supports < 1343561099 692534 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're supposed to alternate between " and ' when nesting quotations in English, I believe. < 1343561107 697252 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://sprunge.us/cQTO < 1343561167 489784 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: That's quite a few bits in the caps that don't match any of your defines, I suppose. (And it's slightly weird that all of them claim output (and most, overlay) capabilities. < 1343561180 356946 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1343561181 331348 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1343561205 586025 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is overlay in v4l context? < 1343561211 886567 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I guess it might be that the driver claims that < 1343561229 147580 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the s3c-fimc seems to handle both input and output devices < 1343561261 183460 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a thing that can be used to write video into a graphics card's screen. A bit like XVideo except done at the V4L level. < 1343561267 409322 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1343561285 450890 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I need to test something then < 1343561351 944043 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, playing a video with the built in video player makes the mediaserver process open video3 < 1343561392 186505 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no difference from the lsof point of view if I use full screen video or "floating window" video < 1343561423 794537 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing happens when I open a video in vlc for android < 1343561442 710443 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't test floating window for it, since it lacks that feature < 1343561471 95526 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the overlay API can specify a window position and size, so it should be pretty same for floating or fullscreen, if it's using that directly. < 1343561488 526853 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1343561507 960866 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :both use hardware acceleration anyway, iirc vlc has an option to turn that off, might try that < 1343561533 343180 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it doesn't open video3 then < 1343561572 808038 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I wonder what those high bits in the caps are < 1343561593 31362 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually... < 1343561611 408565 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are accounted for < 1343561621 999520 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : Vorpal: That's quite a few bits in the caps that don't match any of your defines, I suppose. (And it's slightly weird that all of them claim output (and most, overlay) capabilities. <-- which device do you mean? < 1343561659 750616 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of them, pretty much. 0x4000007d has 7 set bits but only four outputs. < 1343561677 525370 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 0x2d has five set bits but only one decoded line. < 1343561688 414571 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/five/four/ I can't count. < 1343561689 246825 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343561693 866158 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1343561706 461660 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the stuff doesn't match < 1343561732 717455 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21: most notations aren't actually embedded in english < 1343561739 748152 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x4000007d decodes to include V4L2_CAP_STREAMING, but that is 0x4000000 not 0x40000000 < 1343561741 29937 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1343561745 4030 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the notion itself doesn't even make sense. < 1343561752 185294 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :notations are seperate from english < 1343561758 764117 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1343561767 128162 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could say that ASCII isn't prepared for "notations" < 1343561769 199022 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not english. < 1343561770 2787 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Yeah, I assumed the numbers in your other header are different. < 1343561779 444616 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343561790 462606 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how does that work then < 1343561798 87059 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it report V4L2_CAP_STREAMING < 1343561811 131500 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the one you're using to compile, as opposed to the one I was looking at. < 1343561819 405687 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343561834 207812 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the one I'm using to compile matches my system one except a few defines are missing < 1343561842 46130 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kinda weird, then. < 1343561847 69491 :augur!~augur@pool-71-178-130-139.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343561855 48024 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1343561855 256657 :augur!~augur@pool-71-178-130-139.washdc.east.verizon.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343561856 835252 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1343561859 922075 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, printf typo < 1343561865 35156 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :the d at the end is wrong < 1343561870 181434 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhhh. < 1343561870 342255 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did %xd < 1343561871 921488 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1343561883 603207 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that explains a lot. I *was* wondering about weird-looking numbers. < 1343561904 448840 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot that x wasn't a modifier for d < 1343561926 561303 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :%od, for octo-decimal. < 1343561941 51704 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well %d as opposed to %u < 1343561950 456175 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would make sense < 1343561962 425580 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could do signed and unsigned %x and %o < 1343561991 217274 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the %i alias for %d to muddy the waters more. < 1343561997 263712 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1343562004 669189 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the subtle difference for %i and %d for *scanf.) < 1343562081 826200 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that difference? < 1343562157 221672 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to figure out the various capture queries < 1343562214 920157 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :%d is explicitly decimal, but %i is like base 0 for strtol, so you can type in 0123/0x123 for octal/hex. < 1343562274 751047 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1343562307 774501 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to avoid the scanf family of functions, never liked that interface. And error handling is too much of a pain with it < 1343562332 970126 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's quite bad. Especially for any line-oriented input, since it tends to leave the newline if things fail. < 1343562348 647490 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :A getline-style thing followed by sscanf could work for something, though. < 1343562357 524719 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-194-156.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343562373 762717 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any idea how to control the flash btw? < 1343562380 173695 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a v4l thing? < 1343562410 988721 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :None whatsoever. It's not a standard-standard V4L thing, since it's not really camera-oriented at all. It could be some sort of a common extension, though. < 1343562417 550657 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343562464 410077 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even the way of doing "take a picture" (i.e. get a single high-resolution frame) isn't really a V4L thing, though I suppose it can be just a "switch formats, read one frame, switch back" thing. < 1343562477 590275 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I don't know about focus control. < 1343562526 181332 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343562567 252324 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well that might be easier to figure out once I get the hang of the general v4l interface < 1343562705 376717 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I understand why android uses a user space daemon for camera access now. The API doesn't look multitask friendly at all < 1343562706 548041 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :All your devices apparently deal with the V4L2_CAP_STREAMING way of IO, so you'll need to bother with that too. (You never read(2) anything; you just VIDIOC_REQBUFS some suitable buffers, then mmap them, and the device will communicate data that way. < 1343562764 486850 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1343562769 539593 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains the lack of read() then < 1343562773 928339 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the strace < 1343562794 657930 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric : itidus21: most notations aren't actually embedded in english -- #. ## is token-pasting. #. or just #? Just '#'. ah (Curse my proper punctuation.) < 1343562799 155762 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1343562861 18138 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1343562866 463721 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not actually paying attention < 1343562889 639473 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway the mmap style of interface makes sense when you are dealing with 8MP images < 1343562905 832519 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also I like this page: http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/spec/x5950.htm < 1343562918 450833 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1343562934 502191 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes sense for video in general, thanks to having to move lots of frames. < 1343562938 762426 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1343562951 675491 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't matter for a 320x280 or whatever webcam though < 1343562965 475327 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have such a device around somewhere < 1343562975 678059 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those quickcam thingies (USB one) < 1343562977 158222 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :320x240 sounds more likely. < 1343562979 662360 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :256x240 < 1343562980 147209 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343562987 870001 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :^256x224 < 1343562996 852272 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had a triangular base < 1343563000 439954 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :256x224 = ZGA < 1343563034 212897 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a very cheap USB webcam somewhere, but it does do 640x480 at least. < 1343563070 458272 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZGA is when zzo finally decides to do a movie player for NES < 1343563143 215404 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh its already been done < 1343563165 3452 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mine might do 640x480 < 1343563166 816320 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1343563193 305309 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhhh, 640x360 is called "nHD" because it's one ninth of a 16:9 1080p frame. I wondered about the name at some point. < 1343563263 100090 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HD" as a term is such a mess, too, since you never know whether it means 720p or 1080p. < 1343563565 821727 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343563618 913495 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To query the current image format applications set the type field of a struct v4l2_format to V4L2_BUF_TYPE_VIDEO_CAPTURE and call the VIDIOC_G_FMT ioctl with a pointer to this structure. Drivers fill the struct v4l2_pix_format pix member of the fmt union." < 1343563621 663222 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that didn't work < 1343563622 553805 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1343563628 470675 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :EINVAL < 1343563677 552945 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I heard talk about 4096p in the future. Presumably HD as well < 1343563700 771314 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: Wychodzi < 1343563739 282775 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they have that "4K" 3840Ă—2160 for which screens exist, and the proposed "8K" 7680Ă—4320 thing. < 1343563752 971655 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is 3840Ă—2160 4k? < 1343563809 10024 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know why it's called that. < 1343563815 600824 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :QFHD is I guess the "proper name". < 1343563829 716133 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's twice the "full-HD" 1920x1080 in both dimensions. < 1343563849 119268 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hd seems to mean twice the width resolution as a svga monitor, but the size of a tv and price of $5000 at first < 1343563877 527377 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you count pixels, it's in the same ballpark as the 4K digital cinema formats. < 1343563884 404702 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which aren't all 4096 pixels wide either. < 1343563950 236308 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1343563952 710000 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i kinda feel sorry for all the people for whom a hdtv was luxury for a few years and along came cheaper < 1343563995 628471 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, fun thing: the format query only works right after I close the camera app. Presumably the camera enters some sort of sleep mode very quickly < 1343564009 724114 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the hell do I deal with that... < 1343564017 565346 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to strace I guess < 1343564039 136514 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1343564052 425916 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it will stay open if you open the device and set a format, then keep doing stuff. < 1343564061 757064 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343564076 879553 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, even querying the current format will probably only give you the preview stream sizes. < 1343564106 819294 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least on the N900, the same video0 interface is used for the preview video and the full-frame capture. < 1343564169 110750 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sure but I have to start somewhere < 1343564184 347332 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes it game me some sizes that seemed reasonable for preview: 960x720 < 1343564230 387133 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm strace on mediaserver didn't do what I intended... it gave I/O errors this time < 1343564284 924229 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1343564309 337708 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember reading something about the long-ish (half a second?) shutter lag of the N900 coming from the lag of switching capture resolution from the viewfinder size to the full-frame size and resetting things in the process. < 1343564330 360362 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently once it gets going, you can stream full-frame images at 10fps, assuming you had a place where to put them. < 1343564341 12394 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you know what, it doesn't ever call open. Yet the device is suddenly open < 1343564347 791153 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :any idea how else you could get an fd to a device < 1343564367 201729 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could receive a fd over Unix socekts, but that sounds quite unlikely. < 1343564367 524807 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :because yes, according to /proc it is not there before but then it is open while the camera app is running < 1343564376 539037 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what system calls are involved in that? < 1343564450 298391 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh... depends on whether the socket is kept permanently open. If it is, then it's just a sendmsg/recvmsg at least code-wise. < 1343564455 529800 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know what it is under the hood. < 1343564460 511841 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343564466 176463 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does strace follow thread forks? < 1343564507 901937 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume so, but I'm not sure. It has that -f for following child processes from fork(2). < 1343564525 434541 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, this thing calls clone() with arguments to create threads < 1343564549 97307 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to use msgget at lot < 1343564558 400559 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is for ipc < 1343564611 110511 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and recv with MSG_OOB < 1343564611 920397 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I don't know if there's some other IPC mechanism that can send credentials, other than Unix sockets. (And I'm not sure if I've ever seen that happen either, though I have a vague feeling that perhaps maybe once.) < 1343564624 17245 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :no recvmsg though < 1343564627 892787 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that isn't a syscall < 1343564650 115800 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe some of the android specific IPC thingies? < 1343564664 226188 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is that binder thing I guess < 1343564670 134822 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what syscalls that expose < 1343564806 98937 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have vague recollections that Linux grouped a lot of socket syscalls into one, but also that strace unentangles them again. < 1343564824 47361 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you see recv as standalone, probably so. < 1343564892 16885 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1343564928 367928 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :MSG_OOB is a curious thing to do, even if it's not related. Can you see what kind of socket it is that it does that to? < 1343564943 151868 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1343564997 122528 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, socket ids are just fds right? < 1343565002 467825 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1343565019 731888 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So you can get new fds from socket(2) too, but probably not the video device.) < 1343565019 893576 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and first argument of the syscall is the fd? < 1343565028 806269 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of recv? Yes. < 1343565036 494715 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :then uh, either strace is broken or wtf < 1343565078 453699 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, socket 11348704 once, then 11348700 and then other numbers of that magnitude < 1343565089 249790 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't match anything open < 1343565101 660263 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I can see at least < 1343565105 544197 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1343565108 580107 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1343565120 750543 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Systems nowadays are so complicated. :/ < 1343565148 32435 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm it seems that these are the ones strace gave I/O errors on < 1343565166 749189 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically: "ptrace: umoven: I/O error" < 1343565192 297232 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, doing &> instead of -o puts that error inside the log of those calls < 1343565204 678155 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what is wrong < 1343565259 731265 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, none of the other arguments it recorded look relevant at all < 1343565275 3706 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what is the value of MSG_OOB? < 1343565302 812036 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343565305 104779 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1343565308 371889 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope doesn't help < 1343565446 470904 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any idea what /dev/ashmem is? < 1343565452 988363 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing has a lot of copies of that open < 1343565454 955785 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever it is < 1343565504 817216 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://elinux.org/Android_Kernel_Features says it's "similar to POSIX SHM but with different behavior and sporting a simpler file-based API". < 1343565564 941646 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As a remedy the present version of the V4L2 API relaxed the concept of device types with specific names and minor numbers. For compatibility with old applications drivers must still register different minor numbers to assign a default function to the device. But if related functions are supported by the driver they must be available under all registered minor numbers. The desired function can be select < 1343565564 998718 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed after opening the device as described in Chapter 4." < 1343565574 183286 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could explain why everything reported every feature < 1343565583 906865 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1343565603 116156 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it doesn't sound impossible that the binder thing is responsible for some of the weirdness. < 1343565608 878557 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1343565624 918810 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, iirc binder has been merged in to vanilla as of 3.4 or 3.5 or some such < 1343565635 201203 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably under staging drivers or such < 1343565690 364636 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway if every device support every feature, then why does /dev/video0 and /dev/video1 both correspond to the same driver and presumably controller device, but represent different cameras < 1343565785 688696 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose a single driver can still have different minor numbers that expose different cameras. It just says "if related functions are supported"; capturing from different cameras aren't so related. < 1343565802 519011 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343565823 842409 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm there is /dev/binder opened as fd 3, and there were a lot of ioctls done on that < 1343565852 199637 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that 78 and 80. Which were the cameras that were never opened? < 1343565863 857560 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the old way you used to have /dev/video0 and /dev/vbi0 and whatnot related to the same card (with different minor numbers), and I suppose what your quotation means is just that you can nowadays do all that on the /dev/video0. < 1343565870 152683 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm not smart enough to see a third option between global variables and OO < 1343565874 6708 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in TCL < 1343565875 107871 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, 80 was the camera < 1343565876 596586 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 78 < 1343565879 206830 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :78 was ashmem < 1343565903 461234 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, monads? < 1343565910 943899 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know if you can do that) < 1343565912 597972 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything about binder, so I don't know if it could cause a sneaky file-opening. < 1343565921 618536 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(given that it is tcl, you probably could emulate it) < 1343565928 640322 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls -l /dev/{vbi,video}* < 1343565928 658877 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-rw----+ 1 root video 81, 1 2012-07-28 00:05 /dev/vbi0 < 1343565928 658949 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-rw----+ 1 root video 81, 0 2012-07-28 00:05 /dev/video0 < 1343565933 377150 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are actually the same device. < 1343565947 410335 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though they have different minor numbers. < 1343565970 855941 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, what was that '+' there in the mode? < 1343566048 214681 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ACL I think? Maybe? < 1343566049 998623 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1343566054 351892 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is that on < 1343566055 162719 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would make sense. < 1343566058 244160 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :On this desktop. < 1343566062 76280 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1343566067 317827 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :does tmpfs even do ACL? < 1343566077 977930 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :check mount to see if ACL is mentionedf < 1343566080 164857 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :mentioned* < 1343566087 655713 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or anything else of that sort < 1343566107 715153 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, could perhaps be selinux or similar as well < 1343566144 602807 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the binder.h file has an enum value called TF_ACCEPT_FDS < 1343566164 30307 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343566167 911345 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1343566232 166099 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Posix ACLs were a good guess, there's an extra "user:fis:rw-" entry according to getfacl. (No idea what sets that up.) < 1343566251 24171 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, consolekit I would /guess/ < 1343566256 776627 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which distro? < 1343566267 636006 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott JOIN :#esoteric < 1343566270 654016 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, hi < 1343566274 412448 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1343566274 431530 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. < 1343566300 530851 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Some not too new Ubuntu. < 1343566314 250212 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1343566323 572173 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ubuntu doesn't do that for other devices at least < 1343566332 819396 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't have any video* on it < 1343566337 773441 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 10.04? < 1343566369 262316 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is an old PCI analog-TV card that I don't use for anything at all.) < 1343566408 5254 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well it looks like it might be possible to send fds over binder < 1343566424 537564 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :in replies at least < 1343566430 200846 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really find any docs on it < 1343566532 706299 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Away a while.) < 1343566688 248808 :augur!~augur@206.196.187.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343566706 276187 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343566724 889408 :augur!~augur@206.196.187.12 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1343566736 608404 :augur!~augur@206.196.187.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343567004 310391 :MoALTz__!~no@host-92-8-151-243.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343567054 516043 :MoALTz__!~no@host-92-8-151-243.as43234.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1343567162 30309 :MoALTz_!~no@host-92-2-141-48.as43234.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1343567276 566827 :nooga_!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1343567277 75599 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1343567308 21101 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-151-243.as43234.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343567612 67542 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.androidenea.com/2010/03/share-memory-using-ashmem-and-binder-in.html "The solution is to share the file descriptor with the binder since the binder has special functions that can be used to transfer file descriptors over it's interface." < 1343567622 175572 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's for how to share ashmem blocks between processes.) < 1343567625 679238 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could be that. < 1343567702 606001 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343567708 530334 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder where that device was opened then < 1343567724 97453 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it isn't open in the background < 1343567824 8642 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, any idea how to find out which groups a running process is a member of? < 1343567842 495746 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that perhaps mediaserver doesn't have the proper permissions to open /dev/video0 directly < 1343567899 260148 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in /proc//status. < 1343567907 786199 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Gid" and "Groups" for the supplementary groups list. < 1343567931 1850 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Gid" list is the usual suspects, real/effective/saved/fs.) < 1343567932 134079 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, wrong user and wrong groups for the file < 1343567955 619915 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :annoying that android doesn't have /etc/passwd < 1343567965 73097 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to map these values to anything meaningful < 1343567988 620053 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediaserver is in 8 different groups < 1343568105 981534 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And speaking of ACLs in /dev, I've got '+'s for /dev/{kvm,rfkill,sg3,sr0,vbi0,video0}. < 1343568112 204384 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :he < 1343568113 539877 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh* < 1343568125 718966 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I have that for sr0 < 1343568151 820596 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few more < 1343568167 59449 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sg3 is the sg corresponding to sr0 here.) < 1343568171 557300 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :adsp, audio, dsp, mixer, rfkill, sequencer, sequencer2, sr0 < 1343568189 112424 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for sg* though < 1343568240 708267 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, ~everything in /dev/snd/ too. (Only looked at top level, don't have any audio things there apparently.) < 1343568272 160458 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check recursively < 1343568320 380670 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything in /dev/snd, some stuff in /dev/input (far from all) and /dev/dri/card0 < 1343568342 857013 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in /dev/input those are event9 to event12 < 1343568346 236532 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :that have those < 1343568353 854485 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are /dev/input/event* btw? < 1343568398 949335 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :arvid@dragon ~ $ LC_ALL=C getfacl /dev/dri/card0 < 1343568399 109760 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :getfacl: Removing leading '/' from absolute path names < 1343568399 128247 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :# file: dev/dri/card0 < 1343568403 402522 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it do that? < 1343568463 939231 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/input/event* are the generic (as opposed to type-specific, like js/mouse/whatever) interface to input devices, though all kinds of things seem to end up as input devices these days. < 1343568473 612384 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : -p, --absolute-names < 1343568473 651114 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : Do not strip leading slash characters (`/'). The default behavior is to strip leading slash characters. < 1343568478 621902 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that doesn't help... < 1343568480 166807 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1343568484 761659 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Power buttons and whatnot. < 1343568519 881817 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, those are ACPI things < 1343568539 487294 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :/sys/class/input/event0 here is /sys/devices/LNXSYSTM:00/device:00/PNP0C0C:00/input/input0/event0 for example. < 1343568546 698650 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know what comes in that way. < 1343568573 493824 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how did you figure out that mapping? < 1343568593 927402 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1343568594 830150 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343568606 12650 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1343568614 238782 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking under /sys/dev/char and couldn't find the device < 1343568619 988175 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is /sys/dev/char incomplete < 1343568813 264269 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/ZbhM -- two power buttons for some reason. < 1343568854 206588 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the keyboard has two event devices for it. < 1343568912 451372 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, that's quite a short list by modern standards; compare the laptop: http://sprunge.us/bSfF < 1343569003 420394 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's things like event6 "BisonCam, NB Pro", "usb-0000:00:1d.0-1.6/button" even though the (built-in) webcam doesn't have any sort of button exposed. < 1343569089 220287 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what all those "HDMI/DP,pcm=X" EV_SW (switch) type things are either. < 1343569103 151368 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1343569135 977075 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :installing lsinput now < 1343569157 836369 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ sudo lsinput < 1343569158 1075 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/input/event0 < 1343569158 19594 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :protocol version mismatch (expected 65536, got 65537) < 1343569161 544458 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that was interesting < 1343569166 526749 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1343569185 8495 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have a custom kernel though to work around some issues with wifi monitor mode < 1343569191 99600 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess that is it < 1343569675 364232 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that second device of the keyboard is doing. 'input-events' dumping says all regular keypresses come in via the first one. And the second one has EV_REL EV_ABS (relative and absolute motion events) listed in the types, which sounds a bit strange for a keyboard. < 1343569735 941530 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the multimedia keys use the other device. < 1343569880 893755 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1343569904 762286 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, multimedia keys are often done by ACPI iirc < 1343570137 135822 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a separate USB keyboard, though. < 1343570155 774042 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, interesting note: there is no speed difference between grep "constant string" and grep -F "constant string", but there is a large if you add -i to those < 1343570163 824493 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep -Fi is much faster than grep -i < 1343570191 353367 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(checked by grep -Ri / grep -RFi on kernel sources) < 1343570259 473842 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to lsusb, the keyboard is also a mouse: http://sprunge.us/QEiE < 1343570383 567280 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, fancy keyboard < 1343570411 888088 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on matching the lsusb bInterfaceNumber and sysfs stuff, it's the mouse that is reporting all the multimedia key events. < 1343570437 465042 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there's a good reason. < 1343570556 623961 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1343570959 830497 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1343571728 184175 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343571728 707578 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343571763 965323 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, ais523 < 1343572762 479114 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1343572936 634832 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it bad that I've just figured out how to make the thingy on the left hand side of the screen on Ubuntu appear? < 1343573096 408457 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb, what are you talking about? < 1343573150 759081 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing that's in Unity, I suppose. < 1343573165 870412 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unity_5.12_on_Ubuntu_12.04.png < 1343573167 846368 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That thing. < 1343573220 897656 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1343573249 695459 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how to make it appear either, but it might be different if you've actually been using it. < 1343573280 856589 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Ubuntu's my primary OS < 1343573309 432037 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1343573323 101385 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's mine, too, but despite all their efforts, Unity != Ubuntu quite yet. < 1343573341 43536 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going xubuntu on next LTS release < 1343573353 465069 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can't really be bothered to switch to GNOME or X or CLI or whatever < 1343573366 994112 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the new LTS is out, but not for upgrading from last LTS yet < 1343573372 200363 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: you've used unity for months and only now figure out how to launch applications from it? < 1343573386 187808 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :it won't notify me about that until the first point release of the new LTS < 1343573387 483993 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, nah, I just used to press flag to bring the whole thing up < 1343573422 240469 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :flag < 1343573431 15875 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows key < 1343573437 185113 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's got a picture of a flag on it < 1343573445 117648 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preview of program I'm writing: S I I (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K (S (K (S (S (K S) (S (K K) (S (K S) (S (K (S (S K K))) K)))) (K K))))) (S (K S) (S (K (S ( K S))) (S (K K)))))))) (S (S (K S) (S (K K) S)) (K (S (K S) (S (K (S ( K S))) (S (K K))))))) (K I) I < 1343573483 778551 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one, however, will be EFFICIENT ish < 1343573495 145475 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it probably won't be < 1343573696 682283 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: pure SKI or LazyK? also what it does? < 1343573706 539959 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, pure SKI < 1343573719 686967 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite list of fibonacci numbers, I hope < 1343573798 769089 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1343573854 773117 :oonbotti!~oonbotti@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1343573905 770355 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1343573909 23836 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8B04A.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343574374 624524 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got some pretty epic type errors < 1343574383 600489 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: < 1343574383 814455 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : a0 < 1343574383 832979 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : = < 1343574383 833169 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) < 1343574384 101995 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 < 1343574386 106062 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Expected type: (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) < 1343574388 109437 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> (a0 -> a0) -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0) < 1343574390 111344 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 < 1343574392 114830 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : Actual type: (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) < 1343574394 183338 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> (a0 -> a0) -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0) < 1343574396 183472 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> (((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) < 1343574398 192062 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) < 1343574400 187896 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> ((a0 -> a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0) < 1343574402 189541 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : -> a0 < 1343574404 193085 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the first argument of `k', namely `s' < 1343574406 194860 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric : In the first argument of `s', namely `(k s)' < 1343574408 198490 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really keep my working < 1343574625 887478 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: what does black pudding taste like < 1343574636 956140 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :meat < 1343574652 343805 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1343574665 140566 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no intentions of ever tasting black pudding < 1343574678 87522 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it looks like it would taste like disgusting cooked congealed blood with random shit stuffed in it. < 1343574691 914417 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe I'm mistaken < 1343574697 779269 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: SKI doesn't type in Hindley-Milner < 1343574697 798464 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1343574703 863712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages < 1343574703 883005 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott said 1d 1h 37m ago: ais is always surprising i wish i had a twisted mind like his at my disposal like a brain-in-a-jar or something like that < 1343574708 967116 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it does if you're insane < 1343574729 563331 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION made the Y combinator in Haskell with the help of unsafe coerces
< 1343574743 48154 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION made a factorial program based on that
< 1343574748 7164 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you've seen it < 1343574755 60493 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hi < 1343574759 282292 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi elliott < 1343574765 282960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: then you're not really in Hindley-Milner any more < 1343574771 544954 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right < 1343574780 935147 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was still surprised that GHC's runtime knew what to do with my code. < 1343574805 56012 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti, you've got exactly the opposite mindset to me < 1343574820 18860 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised when it core-dumps when I try to use 10 as a function < 1343574830 614538 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that surprising at all? < 1343574852 452350 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're unsafely coercing things, you'd expect trying to use 10 as a function to attempt to call a function in the eleventh memory location < 1343574874 624585 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure how unsafeCoerce works < 1343574876 818204 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kinda magic to me < 1343574882 85736 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure unsafeCoerce 10 :: functiontype will interpret 10 :: Integer < 1343574883 225309 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :not :: Int < 1343574886 376808 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does absolutely nothing < 1343574892 73863 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it'll be a pointer still < 1343574896 77505 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: ah, OK < 1343574906 553851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll attempt to call a block of memory, as a function, that contains a bignum representation of 10 < 1343574917 519565 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, couldn't you use that mechanism to run arbitrary asm < 1343574929 270391 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: functoins are more than just funptrs, obviously. < 1343574930 104200 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :closures < 1343574936 80823 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to be in the same format < 1343574936 880282 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you INSANE ENOUGH TOO!? < 1343574939 196585 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1343574940 676079 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would expect it to just give an RTS error < 1343574941 31131 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :as other STG closures < 1343574945 783697 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc that case is handled < 1343574955 710205 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can probably find a block of memory that's a closure/bignum polyglot < 1343574971 856150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a good bignum representation will use pretty much every possible byte sequence < 1343574981 430384 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems possible < 1343574987 308259 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: only if you don't understand how stg works < 1343575000 167641 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a standard object format in GHC < 1343575021 278482 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the byte sequence would need to point at things that /actually/ exist though < 1343575024 559611 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be the tricky part < 1343575078 636463 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there more than one level of indirection? < 1343575095 829132 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first section of the closure points to a structure that contains all the free variables. < 1343575180 997374 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1343575185 972422 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first word in a closure points to the info table < 1343575190 166364 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest of the words *are* the free variables < 1343575207 910494 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1343575219 94784 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the info table contains the function pointer? < 1343575236 885152 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1343575250 71585 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the tables next to code optimization, the info table pointer is the function pointer < 1343575256 870326 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the info table itself appears immediately before the function < 1343575260 794939 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :serves me right for only half-assedly reading papers about STF. < 1343575262 90053 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :*G < 1343575269 121194 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :because jumping to that function is by far the most common operation you do with the info ptr < 1343575293 187570 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1343575307 494509 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the function pointer is basically the first field of the info table. < 1343575339 639281 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :and C cast magic makes it so that you can jump to the function pointer without the extra level of indirection. < 1343575345 571709 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, not C < 1343575346 702725 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :neverminde < 1343575352 764165 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, computer magic < 1343575355 922337 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1343575362 316483 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the function pointer is the first field of the info table, you still need to dereference twice < 1343575377 542444 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :with tables next to code, the info table appears immediately before the function code in memory < 1343575377 772401 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, indeed. < 1343575397 367061 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the closures store a pointer to that function code < 1343575409 751479 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that calling the function is accomplished through a single indirect jump < 1343575424 208082 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing other things with the info table requires that you subtract the table size from the function pointer < 1343575437 166257 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a weird thing to do, interleaving data and code < 1343575441 407325 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :some tools like LLVM have trouble with it < 1343575443 925420 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1343575445 559117 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it makes sense < 1343575461 289831 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you disassemble a GHC produced binary you will see these tables in the .text segment < 1343575577 532184 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not weird, it's just an efficient memory layout. < 1343575604 9196 :david_werecat!~david_wer@24-52-224-101.cable.teksavvy.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1343575636 357976 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with this code? < 1343575637 658686 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define ML_GETINT(x) \ < 1343575637 739147 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : ptr = strtok(NULL, " "); if(!ptr) break; \ < 1343575637 757799 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : mmt.##x = atoi(ptr); < 1343575640 305377 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric : ML_GETINT(HDisplay); < 1343575663 139262 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get error: error: pasting "." and "HDisplay" does not give a valid preprocessing token < 1343575680 616273 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth is ##x < 1343575685 210375 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you don't want paste there < 1343575689 72735 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :just mmt.x < 1343575704 198780 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is part of svgalib code < 1343575727 387226 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :kallisti: to preprocess «foo##bar», you preprocess foo and bar, and then concatencate the results into a single token < 1343575746 296424 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :used to e.g. prefix variable names with some standard prefix within a macro < 1343575792 684289 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. I thought CPP was just simple text substition. didn't realize it worked at a token level. < 1343575817 657492 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it won't substitute within a single word < 1343575827 412122 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you #define foo to something, a variable named foobar is left alone < 1343575862 368688 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION learns something new about C everytime it's brought up .
< 1343575877 198643 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably because I haven't read a legitimate resource on it. < 1343575895 606477 :kallisti!~eris@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake PRIVMSG #esoteric :just countless shitty C tutorials that appear prominently on google searches. < 1343575908 198497 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen some other piece of code use token-pasting for member access, though. Perhaps it has worked in one compiler or another. < 1343576000 340135 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :umh. src/vgamisc.c:50: static void *__svgalib_linearframebuffer; src/vgabg.h:30: void *__svgalib_linearframebuffer; < 1343576017 558097 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do they ever get svgalib to compile? < 1343576026 843251 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps they don't. < 1343576032 219873 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen much svgalib users lately. < 1343576114 452326 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"However, two tokens that don't together form a valid token cannot be pasted together. For example, you cannot concatenate x with + in either order. If you try, the preprocessor issues a warning and emits the two tokens. Whether it puts white space between the tokens is undefined. It is common to find unnecessary uses of `##' in complex macros. If you get this warning, it is likely that you ... < 1343576120 518496 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... can simply remove the `##'." < 1343576125 82286 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(GCC's CPP's manual.) < 1343576174 54273 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose spurious ##s have been mostly used with compilers that are silent and just produce the two tokens. < 1343576256 373075 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I've just installed gcc 3.2.2 and I get the warning [in question] when compiling code that worked just fine with 2.95.3." Yeah. < 1343576271 494833 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1343576303 417966 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :getting svgalib to compile with gcc 4.5 is huge pain in the ass < 1343576320 758071 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is not a terrible surprise. < 1343576327 412096 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it would compile just fine with gcc 2.95. < 1343576356 984283 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure someone hasn't already done the required pain, though? People do the strangest things. < 1343576383 937283 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not going to compile old gcc with new gcc so I can compile old gcc again this time with the broken old gcc new gcc produced < 1343576412 208311 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's e.g. a file called "svgalib-1.9.19-gcc4.patch" in the Gentoo svgalib ebuild. < 1343576463 793445 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I access gentoo ebuild with slitaz? < 1343576484 412771 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/media-libs/svgalib/files/ for example. < 1343576502 611281 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though interestingly I'm not seeing the gcc-4 patch there. < 1343576510 78044 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The changelog promised one.) < 1343576516 334998 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which svgalib you're compiling, anyway? < 1343576546 164613 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the newest one, 1.4.3 < 1343576553 950671 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there you go. < 1343576559 793889 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could try 1.9.25. < 1343576584 418932 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's going to be different and all that. < 1343576854 716003 :Taneb!~Taneb@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343577567 289734 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1343578414 248356 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343578440 473595 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343578445 609401 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1343578460 165224 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti, what does svgalib even do? < 1343578504 248029 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am not going to compile old gcc with new gcc so I can compile old gcc again this time with the broken old gcc new gcc produced <-- I have run into that problem when doing a gcc 3.x cross compiler < 1343578517 218701 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :had to compile gcc 3.x native with gcc 4.1 or something like that first < 1343578531 117286 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and had to build gcc 4.1 with 4.6 which was what my system had < 1343579266 481814 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :did they ever fix the thing in minecraft where < 1343579270 894617 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use a bed in the nether it just explodes < 1343579275 121174 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :please say no < 1343579360 374115 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that was a thing that was to be fixed < 1343579377 212707 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, that is a feature, not a bug < 1343579385 665787 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, you are not supposed to be able to sleep in the nether < 1343579738 900969 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1343579744 971283 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean "fix" as in "make less silly" < 1343579773 256726 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you make it less silly? < 1343579778 379408 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :an error message? < 1343579782 444720 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1343579786 951635 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :an explosion is pretty silly!!! < 1343579800 909014 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah they should totally remove TNT and creepers too < 1343579824 767625 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of on the fence on this issue < 1343579830 111168 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exploding beds is rather silly < 1343579864 756750 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's more fun than a message saying "The eery whispers trapped beneath your pillow won't let you sleep" < 1343579872 116878 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is all that silly for sleeping in the nether. Better than an arbitrary "you can't rest here" < 1343579931 157157 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of which, does vanilla minecraft still do "you can't sleep while there are monsters nearby"? < 1343579943 805538 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so? < 1343579947 15058 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1343579950 310979 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do instead < 1343579967 54164 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1343579971 901409 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't test it out atm < 1343579983 531429 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :New computer, still setting up < 1343579991 574669 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't got Java installed yet < 1343580011 749811 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I play with a mod called Somnia that basically simulates the entire night (but without rendering it and trying to run the simulation as fast as possible, so generally it takes less than half a minute to simulate an entire night, or day) < 1343580014 985390 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :beds are cheaper than tnt right < 1343580038 165066 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, but the issue is, you will be at the centre of the explosion < 1343580044 774416 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike with TNT where you can be at a distance < 1343580054 658263 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can activate them from a fair range i think < 1343580080 540100 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe it moves you to the bed first though < 1343580088 404222 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :try it out though, I don't know for sure < 1343580152 809713 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :why must iptables be so complicated < 1343580176 597291 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, does anyone know what a match on !lo+ means for the in-interface value? < 1343580189 232827 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "not lo+" but I don't know what the + does to "lo" < 1343580189 444805 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say "Oi, Phantom_Hoover! Go lie down on that bed there! I wanna test whether this explosion prevention mechanism works or not!" < 1343580198 266258 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1343580199 952461 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 QUIT : < 1343580245 351153 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ease of use and flexibility: You can't have both < 1343580306 362231 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, lets say you can't have both something that is easy to master and also flexible. And making something that is easy to use and flexible is not easy < 1343580327 809764 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/both something that is/something that is both/ < 1343580354 435407 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone mistyped os:timestamp/0 as os:timestampe/0. I got kickse out of that. < 1343580368 756949 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, is that erlang? < 1343580373 914564 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1343580382 476464 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343580392 78007 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, not in my erl -man os? < 1343580392 888484 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :ye old timestampes of os < 1343580395 883284 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :which version has that < 1343580411 459815 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have forgot to keep up-to-date on it < 1343580420 928288 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have Erlang R14B04 (erts-5.8.5) [source] [64-bit] [smp:4:4] [rq:4] [async-threads:0] [kernel-poll:false] < 1343580429 372013 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not up do date at all, it’s the Ubuntu 12.04 package. < 1343580442 139013 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :R14B03 here < 1343580444 342867 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it does have timestampe in -man os) < 1343580451 613797 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like R15B01 is out < 1343580504 700709 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, I suspect that they will deprecate the typo when they find it, then keep it around for about 2 major versions for compatibility < 1343580508 379416 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back < 1343580575 727205 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343580590 629368 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1343580618 557971 :azaq23!~derivecto@unaffiliated/azaq23 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343580774 333308 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, what are you writing in erlang? < 1343580796 607134 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: Not anything at the moment. < 1343580817 331524 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, not anything for a long time. < 1343580825 834523 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, hm why is my os:timestamp/0 correctly spelled in R14B03 then if your R14B04 is typoed < 1343580895 988988 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: Ah, we both seem to have misunderstood each other. :-) I thought you knew i was kidding when i said -man os has “timestampe” and i thought you were continuing the joke when you said they’ll keep it for compatibility. < 1343581027 731802 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Quit: Wychodzi < 1343581067 582886 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, where was it typoed then? < 1343581077 336589 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :on IRC < 1343581079 440676 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1343581093 916060 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion, anyway if they did typo the function name they would seriously keep it around like that < 1343581102 467205 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1343581114 773560 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :referer < 1343581123 132019 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1343581126 926414 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not kidding, I remember them doing that for something around R12 or R11 < 1343581137 60058 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, ? < 1343581145 385726 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: Yes, i know you’re not kidding. :-) < 1343581146 988697 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1343581150 735581 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :vorpal: (HTTP) < 1343581152 506918 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, which standard was that? < 1343581155 139356 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343581198 218855 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :That typo has saved the world a countless amount of bandwidth over the years. < 1343581326 283383 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1343581349 984805 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we estimate the number of HTTP requests world wide per time unit in any way < 1343581350 476900 :Taneb!4e940732@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.148.7.50 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1343581363 381771 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a low estimate would be interesting < 1343581384 560268 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many people with internet is there approx? < 1343581459 899510 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like a billion, IIRC < 1343581487 774799 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm estimated in 2010 to be 35% in 2011 is the best number I can find < 1343581500 597156 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of approx 7 billion < 1343581513 769715 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2.45 billion then < 1343581568 109112 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :since background stuff (i.e. web services and similar) won't use referer most of the time probably we can discount such stuff < 1343581610 940570 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, and such causes referer right? < 1343581622 985867 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk, maybe < 1343581625 95412 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so < 1343581627 769802 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343581630 667009 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's how you do hotlink prevention < 1343581637 464873 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1343581679 99161 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:14 < Vorpal> nortti, what does svgalib even do? // svgalib provides programs a way to set and use (s)vga video modes < 1343581698 243149 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343581719 770596 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets say 2 billion people to be on the safe side. Each visiting 5 pages per day (low arbitrary number). None of them with referer. Each having maybe 10 images, javascripts, css files and so on. Then we get 2 billion * 10 < 1343581738 490994 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :billion is 10^9 in English right? < 1343581766 742844 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1343581789 253430 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's better to waste the internet bandwidth by running it inefficiently than letting criminals control it < 1343581793 591762 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 10^9*5*2 bytes to gigabytes < 1343581804 441015 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[] < 1343581807 238970 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, completely unrelated to current discussion < 1343581808 211663 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1343581814 67941 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, how do I use frink < 1343581838 744692 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :also *10 not *2 < 1343581841 22417 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :"10^9*5*2 bytes to gigabytes" < 1343581855 609892 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh quotes? < 1343581859 180416 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :good one < 1343581859 394816 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink "10^9*5*10 bytes to gigabytes" < 1343581860 854571 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1343581861 668661 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, well for instance, i reload say 40 pages when i restart.. often on account of firefox memory leaks < 1343581866 193871 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just found it funny < 1343581867 992006 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :10^9*5*10 bytes to gigabytes < 1343581880 487774 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the syntax for frink < 1343581884 706165 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. i waste bandwidth for convenience < 1343581887 34847 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: hm? < 1343581888 644932 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :use ->, not to < 1343581890 106062 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have never heard of fronk < 1343581890 431015 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1343581893 179349 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :frink neither < 1343581900 981747 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott, WOLFRAM ALPHA WOULD HAVE UNDERSTOOD ME! < 1343581902 844137 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -fomit-frame-pointer -O2 -fno-strength-reduce -pipe -I../include -L../sharedlib -s -o restorefont restorefont.o -lvga -lm < 1343581905 848154 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lvga < 1343581906 301325 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 10^9*5*10 bytes -> gigabytes < 1343581915 601052 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 < 1343581919 629568 :nortti!nortti@smar.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't -lvga be before sourcw file? < 1343581922 44959 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking!! < 1343581923 543254 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 50 gb per day in this case < 1343581933 135395 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is probably a low count < 1343581943 651646 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it is probably a very low count < 1343581947 159910 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently 50 billion in billions is 50 < 1343581973 209967 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to inform the ministry of numbers < 1343581991 544865 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :`frink 10^9*5*10 bytes -> gibibytes < 1343581997 737757 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :is more interesting < 1343582001 361813 :HackEgo!codu@codu.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :48828125/1048576 (approx. 46.566128730773926) < 1343582020 151640 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it turns out it is in fact ~46.57 < 1343582020 346554 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's far less interesting < 1343582047 246231 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway on the whole it doesn't save much < 1343582057 257901 :oklopol!~nnscript@dyn58-51.yok.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ministry of numbers would be all like meh dude that's boring < 1343582122 948735 :Taneb!~nathan@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343582126 676201 :Taneb!~nathan@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1343582201 657590 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :nortti: By convention, libraries after sources, because some linkers process command line left-to-right, and when encountering a "-lfoo" will only pull out from libfoo.a objects that resolve any as-yet unresolved symbols; so if you -lfoo first, nothing will get taken from the library. < 1343582252 837928 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you need to start with the file containing main first then? < 1343582257 895550 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to some other object file < 1343582269 458027 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this just for libraries? < 1343582332 386776 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I remember having to do -lx -ly -lx style sometime to resolve some complex semi-circular thing, since it didn't pull the entire libx.a, just what was needed from it < 1343582339 291204 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :and liby.a needed some other parts < 1343582355 325031 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :might not have been on a *nix system < 1343582357 599300 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember < 1343582384 394390 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and yes, liby was only pulled in from libx) < 1343582401 458434 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for libraries. If you give an object file, those tools will generally assume you want to link it regardless. < 1343582701 544520 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c-faq.com/lib/libsearch.html < 1343582899 926737 :Taneb!~nathan@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343583038 742596 :Nisstyre!~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre JOIN :#esoteric < 1343584868 903197 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343584884 161737 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343586353 891547 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343587625 475413 :Taneb!~nathan@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343587633 886418 :Taneb!~nathan@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1343587644 473605 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1343587712 388664 :Taneb!~nathan@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change of plans, bye < 1343587715 796120 :Taneb!~nathan@host-78-148-7-50.as13285.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1343588433 497539 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1343588716 505331 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:15:36: kmc: 16:15 How can I convert `Maybe a` to `IO ()`? < 1343588719 591964 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:15:40: Refreshing, isn't it? < 1343588722 116293 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :word. < 1343588906 210801 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good one < 1343589083 120899 :pikhq_!~pikhq@174-22-151-216.clsp.qwest.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343589257 86845 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-151-216.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1343589462 396167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1343589476 224863 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343589629 930659 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-151-216.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pulseaudio: the audio breaking daemon. < 1343589803 974076 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "pulse" in the name refers to the fact that if you're exceedingly lucky, you might get short "pulses" of working audio when the planets align. (That said, this is a PulseAudio system and it has no trouble with the audio part either.) < 1343589829 999823 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-151-216.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recently had a weird problem: mpd and only mpd could play audio. < 1343589836 937015 :pikhq!~pikhq@174-22-151-216.clsp.qwest.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed it by removing pulseaudio. < 1343589878 202030 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have PulseAudio in my phone, too. (A sad state of affairs?) < 1343590305 332817 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of audio, I'd also like if the laptop could partake in producing sound out of the stereo system, and there's an unused coax s/pdif wire already in cable channels between the laptop (approx) and the stereo... but the laptop does digital audio only via a 3.5mm jack that has a TOSLINK led behind the electric parts. The only TOSLINK cable I have is just 1m; and anyway from what I hear ... < 1343590311 372421 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :... TOSLINK cables only go up to about 5m well, and break if bent too sharply. < 1343590367 290393 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I looked at doing general-purpose network audio, things seemed very messy. Especially if Windows was involved. < 1343590453 451883 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1343590920 15133 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliott: Look, an SO question! http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11707171/haskell-sub-typeclass-requires-undecidableinstances < 1343590924 449372 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's already been answered by now. < 1343591321 463442 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1343592516 432091 :asiekierka!~asiekierk@078088172191.elblag.vectranet.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343592837 830868 :monqy!~swell@pool-71-102-219-42.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: hello < 1343593213 993722 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which (non-interactive) assemblers do you know that have an emulator built-in? < 1343593214 50674 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. < 1343593499 683235 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :?messages < 1343593499 738825 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@li85-105.members.linode.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb said 10h 29m 48s ago: Prelude.Generalize.choice is identical to Data.Foldable.asum, which Prelude.Generalize exports anyway < 1343593685 825788 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are emulators/simulators with an assembler built-in; does that count? < 1343593796 875891 :MoALTz!~no@host-92-8-151-243.as43234.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1343594017 779094 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't know. Which ones do you mean? < 1343594041 148292 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean non-interactive systems so they might not count. < 1343594149 793263 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPIM, the MIPS simulator, (IIRC) works so that you just give it an assembly source file, and it uses the integrated assembler to assemble it, then emulates a MIPS system to run the result. Though I suppose it also has an interactive debugger mode. < 1343594269 845462 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. What is then done by the result when emulated? < 1343594772 948825 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing, really. I think you can inspect the contents of the memory afterwards, and the emulator has system calls that can produce output, which you can then inspect. (Come to think of it, I suppose it counts as interactive since I believe it has some input syscalls too, I've just never used them.) < 1343594860 630264 :augur!~augur@206.196.187.12 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343595099 654590 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343595109 265998 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1343595123 918640 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah disconnections are back < 1343595157 874928 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and simultaneously ruining my theory that they were due to something my previous housemates were doing < 1343595207 586342 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that true? Do you know what your previous housemates are doing right now? < 1343595211 699682 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might be doing the same things. < 1343595221 78741 :oerjan!oerjan@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343596239 107559 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was hoping that would be "How do I find C libraries that aren't shit?" < 1343596855 587391 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1343596955 512608 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think asking people can be a profitable strategy, but even that has the slight problem that *someone* needs to wade through the bad ones. < 1343597029 936258 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real answer seems to be "don't use libraries, reinvent the wheel" < 1343597035 458802 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :make your own shit library < 1343597163 290538 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes that is the choice, but it also depend, what library are you trying to make? Maybe there is one. < 1343597309 713321 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have added an emulator to the MagicKit assembler (which is used for NES/Famicom and PC-Engine), a 6502 code in the .EMU block will be executed after the assembler is finish before it make the output file, so you can use that to affect the output and some other things too. < 1343597426 875503 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is using a slightly modified version of lib6502; it suppresses the error message for illegal instructions.) < 1343597504 780923 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also like to know if there are assemblers for other systems which have similar feature. < 1343597709 332639 :nortti_!~androirc@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1343597902 16516 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i want to learn 6503 < 1343597923 528955 :nortti_!~androirc@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that? < 1343597927 127839 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUB 6503, 1 < 1343597942 63081 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. i don't suppose i can do that < 1343597951 793195 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :MOV AX(?), 6503 < 1343597961 356228 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEC AX < 1343597969 256031 :nortti_!~androirc@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. 6502 < 1343597979 263956 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya.. some kind of joke < 1343597993 763336 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :irony i think < 1343598004 995059 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of computers with 6502 did you want to program? < 1343598077 35345 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BBC Micro < 1343598086 176534 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1343598096 700805 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually thats not true < 1343598109 101275 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's another attempt at irony. < 1343598131 889623 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not ironic because BBC Micro is probably actually fun.. just found it on wikipedia < 1343598148 360906 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no.. the computer i have in mind is NES/Famicom < 1343598165 879094 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. What assembler did you want to use? < 1343598222 521561 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's on my bucket list to: learn japanese, learn 6502 assembly language, finish reading akira manga, finish watching rurouni kenshin anime, ... bleh < 1343598246 59357 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: my first goal of 6502 is actually to help with reading the disassembly of super mario bros. < 1343598277 41369 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would have to learn the system too, not only the 6502. Also, the NES/Famicom does not have decimal mode other than that it is the same 6502 including unofficial instructions. < 1343598311 576438 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a nice disassembly, i've peeked at it before < 1343598330 571371 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's one of the few games that i actually care how they did it < 1343598401 293553 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps also i need more patience < 1343598770 192599 :nooga_!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1343598847 361414 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i will have to get around to it in my own time.. so many things to learn about hardware < 1343598897 572639 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as.. how graphics accelration actually works in a modern pc < 1343599187 495934 :itidus21!~itidus21@120.148.51.163 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i started to learn about blitters then, gradually i can see that something about my conception of a computer is too simple < 1343599323 389687 :nortti_!~androirc@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your conception of a computer? < 1343599377 531520 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you ever read Akagi and Kaiji manga and anime? < 1343599558 431234 :nortti_!~androirc@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :who does "you" include? < 1343599582 100379 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant itidus21 but others too if you want to < 1343599949 401885 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :itidus21, just curious, have you ever moved past the "realising how little I know" stage and actually reached "learning more things"? < 1343599983 396024 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at this point you could probably generalize some of the lessons about how little you know < 1343600000 855057 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :preemptively question the assumptions you make about how things work < 1343600002 410190 :kmc!~keegan@c-65-96-1-204.hsd1.ma.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that < 1343600011 980384 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1343600067 901924 :impomatic!~digital_w@31.185.139.168 PART :#esoteric < 1343600151 185780 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember a specific conversation we've had with iti where we try to explain something.
< 1343600223 364390 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, it's too fuzzed together. < 1343600393 489131 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it proper in boxing to stay on the floor until they count to nine the second time you are knocked out in an attempt to avoid being TKO'd? < 1343600471 884694 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343600550 112647 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1343600569 933519 :augur!~augur@208.58.5.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343600606 170163 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no. < 1343600630 98267 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there specifically a rule against it? < 1343600742 654285 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1343600764 915974 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do they enforce it? < 1343600784 371418 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you break the rule you're banned from punching people. < 1343600789 81372 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ever. < 1343600800 334689 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can still box, it's just kind of pointless. < 1343600819 383874 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how to they check if you are legitimately knocked out for that amount of time or not? < 1343600955 868027 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know how they could do anything about it other than giving your opponent more points. But maybe I am wrong. < 1343601002 767377 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They whallop you in the side when they reach nine and see if you cry out. < 1343601154 244461 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they do that then you can instead get up just before they reach nine. Anyways if they do that, then if you are legitimately knocked out but would get up anyways then you may remain knocked out longer unfairly. And you could be able to learn self-control to decide by yourself to cry or not as much as you want. < 1343601654 814167 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know nothing about boxing FWIW, that was all made up.) < 1343601688 677139 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-49-17.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly did not believe "If you break the rule you're banned from punching people."; but that's all. < 1343601984 187270 :nooga!~nooga@ip-46-250-173-30.ip.maverick.com.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1343602064 918610 :nortti_!~androirc@a91-154-82-93.elisa-laajakaista.fi QUIT :Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com ) < 1343602768 877749 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-ad034d00.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, this thread went bizarre http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/xcjnf/found_a_bull_in_hobby_lobby_obviously_there_was/c5l84sv < 1343602908 513738 :ion!ion@heh.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :The direct children of that comment are funny. Can’t tell if trolling or just stupid. < 1343603251 672482 :Phantom_Hoover!~Phantom@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover/x-3377486 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can definitely see someone not realising that it's is not the possessive of it when asked. < 1343603419 481393 :glogbackup!~glogbacku@64.31.59.246 JOIN :#esoteric < 1343604585 123568 :epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.211 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1343606207 520380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :kmc: Wait, what happened? < 1343606218 146738 :derdon!~derdon@p5DE8B04A.dip.t-dialin.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1343606348 807484 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at scrollback