00:01:54 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:01:55 zzo38: there's an entire hierarchy of category - functor - natural transformation - etc. although i don't really know anything about what comes after natural transformation. and there is something called an n-category which has something to do with a structure that has such a hierarchy up to step n. 00:03:30 the next one is "unnatural transformation" 00:03:55 each step forms the objects of a category with the next step its morphisms 00:04:56 john baez used to blog about these things, before the word blog was invented 00:05:38 and (i think) he started a forum called the n-category cafe 00:05:53 yes, the n-category cafe exists 00:06:30 (perhaps the least understandable blog ever???) 00:06:58 i don't know, i haven't tried reading it 00:07:28 http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/ now's your opportunity 00:09:01 that wikipedia picture is definitely _not_ what i would imagine him to look like 00:09:19 not enough beard? 00:10:04 i don't have a very precise imagination, i just know that isn't it :P 00:10:09 https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=john+baez&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&biw=1366&bih=685&sei=VfMJUNGpKoOr0QXDhtHoCg take your pick 00:12:22 I TAKE THAT FELIX KLEIN PICTURE 00:23:46 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 00:29:13 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:45:43 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 00:45:52 -!- Nisstyre has joined. 00:51:23 I thought of what jumpers my computer design will have: Jumper 0 causes privilege mode to always be enabled (otherwise only the BIOS can do so). Jumper 1 enables the debugger. Jumper 2 allows ROM to be reflashed. Jumper 3 enters recovery mode. Jumper 4 changes the boot order. Jumper 5 slows down the computer. Jumper 6 and 7 set the region code (no code, NTSC, PAL, or SECAM). 00:52:13 Is this OK? 00:53:56 (Normally, once it boots, if autostart is not enabled or no media which can be autostarted is inserted, a Forth interpreter will be loaded, and you can type BASIC at the prompt to enter a BASIC interpreter instead.) 00:56:33 (More specifically, Jumper 1 allows the Forth interpreter to become a privileged task, so that it may load a debugger or do anything else that would otherwise require privelege mode. Jumper 5 simply cuts the CPU clock speed in half in order to save energy.) 01:00:38 (Approval does *not* allow your program to bypass the security! Only a user physically adjusting the computer (instructions are provided in the manual and require only a screwdriver) can do that.) 01:05:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:06:34 "in Europe and the UK, lemonade is a carbonated drink" I... What? 01:06:50 O, they have carbonated lemonade in UK? 01:07:02 I know some people have been in UK I will ask them. 01:07:34 well it's news to _me_ 01:08:23 huh? 01:08:28 yes, we have carbonated lemonade 01:08:39 i had some today, in fact. (the cloudy kind.) 01:09:03 our carbonated citrus drinks are usually orange based, fanta and the local competitor solo 01:09:26 *in norway 01:09:48 the standard carbonated lemonade is generally transparent. the flavour is hard to describe 01:09:54 and i guess there are some even less well-known brands 01:10:09 but you can imagine cloudy lemonade basically like fanta if it was made with lemons, except less sugary and more bitter. well, that's not really a good explanation. 01:10:12 but you get the idea. 01:10:21 hm is sprite a carbonated lemonade? 01:10:33 sprite is lemon-lime -- so close enough, yes 01:10:43 imagine sprint without the lime :p 01:11:07 (for normal lemonade. cloudy/"traditional" is different still.) 01:13:30 Do they have carbonated television? 01:13:39 I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS 01:13:44 lemonade in the UK is clear 01:13:46 what a country 01:13:50 zzo38: i'm a bit fizzy on that concept 01:14:00 impossible 01:14:56 kmc: not all! 01:15:04 kmc: as established, cloudy lemonade is not clear 01:15:33 kmc: have you tried cloudy lemonade? have you been to the uk 01:15:54 I have! 01:16:02 I therefore speak for all UK people 01:16:02 i'm in the UK as we speak 01:16:10 i have not tried cloudy lemonade in the UK 01:16:12 oh, in that case I shall let kmc speak for everyone 01:16:15 i hear it's still fizzy 01:16:54 Cloud lemonade is fizzie? 01:17:19 kmc: it is quite refreshing 01:17:46 Ugh, "cloudy" means "carbonated"? 01:17:50 I can't drink carbonated things. 01:18:01 no, both cloudy and non-cloudy lemonade are carbonated 01:18:07 What? 01:18:22 -!- ais523 has quit. 01:18:23 Oh. 01:18:35 whoa 01:18:53 non-cloudy lemonade looks exactly like water 01:19:11 kmc: well, sparkling water, rather. 01:19:18 yeah 01:19:21 i meant in the bottle 01:19:23 right 01:19:24 it is fizzy 01:19:33 :-( 01:19:46 i'm in The Other Cambridge right now 01:20:03 kmc: Go visit elliott__! 01:20:21 i am not worth visiting 01:20:22 He is said to live in Hex hamuk. 01:21:22 elliott__ is unvisitable, like me 01:21:32 oerjan: What makes your unvisitable? 01:21:41 oerjan: have I mentioned I'm going to visit Trondheim some day 01:21:53 i could tell you but then i'd have to kill you 01:22:10 kmc: I wrote an Android program. 01:22:14 It's kind of terrible. :-( 01:22:21 elliott__: maybe. 01:22:39 oerjan: if I was in Trondheim where would be an ideal to intercept you walking somewhere. theoretically. 01:23:44 why outside my favorite restaurant, of course. too bad it's closing in a month or so. 01:25:07 how big is trondheim 01:25:22 if i stand in the middle and shout OERJAAAAAN (with butchered pronunciation) really loudly, will you hear 01:25:22 hundredsomethingthousand people 01:25:29 elliott__: no. 01:25:36 i can shout really loudly. 01:25:53 oerjan would pretend not to listen. 01:25:58 that too. 01:27:20 clearly i will just peek into the windows of every house in trondheim and compare to that one photo of you 01:27:34 This whole "carbonated lemonade" thing is friggin' weird to me. US lemonade = diluted, sweetened lemon juice. 01:28:48 i am sure you can get some nice cloudy lemonade _somewhere_ in the us 01:28:57 elliott__: sounds like a plan. although my drapes are currently shut. 01:29:03 US lemonade is cloudy. 01:29:09 I mean, it's not clear. 01:29:12 pikhq: vastly diluted, vastly sweetend 01:29:12 It's just not carbonated. 01:29:27 most lemonade in the US is high-fructose corn syrup with flavorings and 0-3% lemon juice 01:29:34 kmc: Well, yes, it's the US. 01:30:00 kmc: I mean, c'mon, look at sweet tea. It's actually saturated with sugar. 01:30:22 kmc: whatcha doing in the one true cambrifge? 01:30:22 oerjan: first the houses will be broken into to open their drapes. 01:30:36 copumpkin: here with an alum friend 01:30:44 cool :) 01:30:44 we dined at a college 01:30:48 omg 01:30:49 excessively nice food :) 01:30:54 i put on a suit 01:30:56 wow 01:31:01 yeah, it's very fancy around there 01:31:01 it was worth it 01:31:04 I interviewed there 01:31:06 then i drank many beers 01:31:16 excellent 01:31:22 elliott__: you're secretly related to rube goldberg, aren't you 01:31:22 I hope you wore a top hat and a monocle 01:31:27 everyone knows that's what they do in england 01:32:13 quite. 01:32:57 indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5SckoCX9s&feature=youtu.be 01:33:11 Now I know what UK people must think of iced tea... 01:33:41 What's iced tea? 01:33:51 some rapper guy 01:34:11 shachaf: Exactly what it sounds like. Tea, served cold. 01:34:26 pikhq: In the US or in the UK? 01:34:32 In the US. 01:34:40 What is it in the UK? 01:34:46 Blasphemy. 01:35:15 Is tea, served cold also a blasphemy? 01:35:37 It's the thing itself that's blasphemy. 01:43:06 oerjan: have you fish 01:43:09 * oerjan is wondering if the internet connection is flaky today 01:43:25 elliott__: Why do Java people use strings everywhere? 01:43:26 i keep having to reload webpages 01:43:58 elliott__: i have mackerel with tomato in a tube, does that count? 01:44:14 also cod caviar 01:44:17 shachaf: it is not like it is easy to describe more complex objects in Java expressions. 01:44:25 oerjan: wish i never asked 01:45:31 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 01:45:56 elliott__: That's true, but come on! "foo".getBytes("utf-8") can throw an exception even though UTF-8 is guaranteed to exist. 01:46:09 * oerjan recalls reading a newspaper article about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_tea 01:46:18 elliott__: isn't that usually the case. 01:46:22 * shachaf recalls consuming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_tea 01:46:47 shachaf: high five 01:46:53 * oerjan never tasted it, though 01:46:55 oerjan: I mean that I consumed the "tea". 01:46:58 Not the article. 01:47:05 Though I guess I consumed portions of the article. 01:48:03 Today, while on a BBS connected by Telnet, I read a message on alt.2600 that someone mentioned they wanted to use a BBS connected by Telnet... 01:48:15 -!- david_werecat has joined. 01:48:17 zzo38: Was that someone you? 01:48:38 shachaf: No, it was someone else who posted that message, the message included a lot of other stuff too 01:49:18 Did it have anything about Magic: The Gathering? 01:49:23 Or Ibtlfmm? 01:49:25 No. 01:51:34 * oerjan ponders OGO 01:51:43 like php, but one step worse 01:52:01 * oerjan watches universe implode in paradox 02:04:27 Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination. 02:04:31 Prove that for any natural N, 1000^N - 1 cannot be a divisor of 1978^N - 1 02:05:26 that sounds difficile 02:08:54 `factor 1978 02:08:55 oh 02:08:57 wait 02:08:57 1978: 2 23 43 02:09:03 no it isnt difficult 02:09:13 i thought it was like 02:09:20 two different exponents 02:10:14 wait 02:10:20 yes it still is hard 02:10:23 oerjan: halp 02:10:30 i'm slightly on it 02:11:50 hmph both sides are divisible by 3 02:12:01 left is divisible by 9 02:12:36 hm... 02:12:53 Yes I think you are correct it is divisible by nine I have not noticed that before. 02:13:03 > [7^n `mod` 9 | n <- [1..]] 02:13:04 [7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,4,1,7,... 02:13:41 the right side is divisible by 9 if n is divisible by 3 02:13:50 kk 02:14:28 > 7^4 02:14:29 2401 02:14:37 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Excess Flood). 02:14:50 is 1978 = 7 mod 9? 02:15:02 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 02:15:02 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Changing host). 02:15:02 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 02:15:06 yes 02:15:15 ah 02:15:22 usual digital root calculation 02:15:49 so the other factor must be the interesting one 02:16:21 the left side is divisible by 27 if N is 1 mod 3 02:16:30 but thats not super helpful :P 02:16:46 wait 02:16:46 no 02:16:53 the left side is always divisible by 27 02:17:04 thats more helpful 02:17:22 it's always divisible by 999, come to think of it 02:17:28 `factor 999 02:17:30 999: 3 3 3 37 02:17:56 > 1978 `mod` 37 02:17:58 17 02:17:58 oh right 02:18:24 999*1001, 999*1001001, 999*1001001001 etc 02:18:34 > [17^n `mod` 37 | n <- [1..]] 02:18:36 [17,30,29,12,19,27,15,33,6,28,32,26,35,3,14,16,13,36,20,7,8,25,18,10,22,4,3... 02:18:48 we need moreterms! 02:19:04 hmph 02:19:20 i expect its a 37 cycle 02:19:27 actually we have enough to deduce that 02:19:28 and it will be 1 at 37 02:19:43 17 and 37 rel prime 02:19:52 no 02:20:02 > 17^36 `mod` 37 02:20:04 1 02:20:08 fermat's little theorem 02:20:14 right right 02:20:38 thats the 37th term if you start at 0. also the first term :P 02:20:47 so n must be divisible by 36 :P 02:21:20 well still not an answer 02:21:27 `factor 999999 02:21:30 999999: 3 3 3 7 11 13 37 02:21:37 HI OERJAN 02:21:39 WHATS UP ? 02:21:45 those are also factors once n is divisible by 2 02:21:59 (which we have now proved) 02:22:15 elliott__: trying to prove 1000^n - 1 cannot divide 1978^n - 1 02:22:15 : / 02:22:22 OERJAN : THATS GREAT DUDE . 02:22:41 oerjan: maybe we can repeat this to show n is a multiple of 4? 02:22:45 `factor 1978 02:22:48 1978: 2 23 43 02:22:59 `factor 999999999 02:23:02 999999999: 3 3 3 3 37 333667 02:23:17 `factor 999999999999 02:23:19 999999999999: 3 3 3 7 11 13 37 101 9901 02:23:28 quintopia: um we know n is a multiple of 36 02:23:42 i'm just looking for smaller n so that factor can handle them 02:23:43 then 02:23:53 well 02:24:23 quintopia: if either 23 or 43 could show up, we'd be done :/ 02:24:52 oh right 02:25:24 hm... 02:25:25 what if it doesnt show up til 10^108-1? 02:26:02 > [1000^n `mod` 23 | n <- [1..]] 02:26:04 [11,6,20,13,5,9,7,8,19,2,22,12,17,3,10,18,14,16,15,4,21,1,11,6,20,13,5,9,7,... 02:26:15 pikhq: hey, tell mike to make tup's output less ugly 02:26:24 theres a 1 02:26:26 > [1000^n `mod` 43 | n <- [1..]] 02:26:27 [11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,1,11,35,41,21,16,4,... 02:26:33 hurrah 02:26:36 pikhq: it has developed so many bells and whistles in the form of coloured progress bars that i can no longer stand to look at it. 02:26:48 quintopia: alas, and in the 22 spot too 02:27:13 yeah 02:27:40 hm left hand is divisible by 43 if n divisible by 7 02:28:34 but that doesn't tell about what to do when n isn't 02:28:46 > [0..] 02:28:48 [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,... 02:28:50 )i felt left out) 02:28:52 *(i 02:31:01 hm oh wait 02:32:51 * oerjan gets tired 02:35:05 oerjan: im tire 2 02:37:18 copumpkin: Agda is a low-level language. :-( 02:37:26 yup 02:43:07 oerjan: can you bring nsqx back 02:43:28 he has been gone since **may**. that is forever !!! 02:43:35 i nominate kmc as the substitute nsqx 02:43:42 kmc: tell me about unicode 02:44:36 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:53:16 > [1978^n `mod` 9900 | n <- [1..]] 02:53:18 [1978,1984,3952,5956,9868,6004,5812,2236,7408,1024,5872,2116,7648,544,6832,... 02:53:25 oops 02:53:49 > [1978^n `mod` 9901 | n <- [1..]] 02:53:50 [1978,1589,4425,166,1615,6348,1876,7754,763,4262,4485,34,7846,4521,1935,564... 02:54:03 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:54:49 > iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1 02:54:50 [1,1978,1589,4425,166,1615,6348,1876,7754,763,4262,4485,34,7846,4521,1935,5... 02:55:03 > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1 02:55:04 Just 0 02:55:18 > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1978 02:55:19 Just 4949 02:55:39 `factor 4950 02:55:42 4950: 2 3 3 5 5 11 02:55:46 aha 02:55:50 quintopia: i think i've got it 02:57:03 (1) the left hand side is always divisible by 999, which has 37 as a factor which only divides the right hand side when n is divisible by 36. 02:58:21 (2) thus n is divisible by 4, which forces the left hand side to be divisible by 999999999999, which has 9901 as a factor. this only divides the right hand side when n is divisible by 4950, which has 22 as a factor. 02:59:10 elliott__: are you the real elliott 02:59:14 (3) thus n is divisible by 22, which means the left hand side is divisible by 23. but 23 is a factor of 1978, giving a contradiction. 02:59:49 zzo38: ^ 03:00:37 OK 03:00:51 shachaf: no 03:00:55 although if the 1978 is a hint that this was in some math competition back in that year, then there is likely a less computationally intensive solution 03:01:57 I don't know. 03:08:28 -!- monqy has joined. 03:08:58 hi, monqy 03:10:37 helo 03:10:37 monqy: You have 5 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them. 03:11:17 EHLO monqy 03:13:10 elho 03:13:29 ohle 03:13:36 hole 03:15:29 eloh 03:27:15 how did you know 10^22-1 is divisible by 23 again? 03:27:49 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:27:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:28:14 > [1000^n `mod` 23 | n <- [1..]] 03:28:16 [11,6,20,13,5,9,7,8,19,2,22,12,17,3,10,18,14,16,15,4,21,1,11,6,20,13,5,9,7,... 03:28:21 thus 03:28:48 > (10^22-1) `mod` 23 03:28:49 0 03:29:44 -!- david_werecat has joined. 03:30:05 oh i remember 03:30:06 thx 03:30:37 @botsnack 03:30:38 :) 03:30:38 how did you get 4950? 03:30:56 > findIndex (== 1) $ iterate (\x -> x * 1978 `mod` 9901) 1978 03:30:57 Just 4949 03:31:30 yeah that's definitely not the "math competition" solution :P 03:31:40 u think 03:32:01 :) 03:32:04 nitenite 03:32:09 bye 03:34:33 tswett: I think you're making things more confusing than before... 03:52:35 I see #haskell is still a shambling mess of people confusing themselves and others. 04:06:30 Is there a program to compile MML into a Csound score file? 04:09:14 I suppose I could try to write one if wanted. 04:22:20 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:30:11 goodnight 04:33:39 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 04:34:36 -!- elliott__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:36:36 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:38:42 -!- kallisti has joined. 04:38:45 -!- kallisti_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:40:46 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream. 04:55:54 -!- variable has joined. 05:38:56 Geez, I can't even write a simple Tcl script without encountering a bug which static typing would have caught 05:39:08 puts $file html 05:39:11 Instead of puts $file $html 05:41:29 What's that do in TCL? 05:42:24 s/TCL/Tcl/ 05:43:29 I mean, does it treat "html" as a string then? If so, you don't need static typing to catch that, just some simple syntax checking. 05:43:32 [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ perl -e 'print STDOUT html; print "\n";' 05:43:35 html 05:43:37 [htkallas@pc112 ~]$ perl -Mstrict -e 'print STDOUT html; print "\n";' 05:43:40 Bareword "html" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at -e line 1. 05:43:48 fizzie: html is a string literal with or without quotes in Tcl. 05:45:02 As is puts. 05:45:50 -!- kallisti_ has joined. 05:46:02 Basically, he wrote fprintf(file, "html"); instead of fprintf(file, html); 05:46:23 Wait, static typing wouldn't have stopped it, I guess 05:46:37 Can easily make a similar mistake in Haskell, really 05:46:42 Right. Type checking does jack shit there. :) 05:47:02 I see, but unquoted strings sound just as splubby as Perl barewords, which at least have been strongly discouraged in most contexts. 05:47:08 Though admittedly plain "print html;" passes use strict in Perl, too, because it's treated as a filehandle ID and prints $_... 05:47:35 (use warnings will burp about an unopened filehandle.) 05:48:00 fizzie: If you had to quote strings he'd have to write that as "puts" $file $html or {puts} $file $html. 05:48:31 Or perhaps even "puts" ["set" "file"] ["set" "html"] 05:49:15 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:49:15 Tcl does seem nice for simple scripting 05:49:29 -!- kallisti_ has changed nick to kallisti. 05:49:41 Add opcodes "famicom_square", "famicom_vrc6_square", "famicom_disksystem", etc in Csound to emulate NES/Famicom audio. You can have "famicom_2a03" to emulate the internal channels together since they are capable of interfering with each other. 05:50:16 Is Tcl more consistent than Bash? 05:50:26 Sgeo_: http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TclCmd/Tcl.htm says yes. 05:52:18 I think I'm falling back in love with Tcl 05:53:00 Nice documentation, easy access to sockets and files, GUI stuff easy to get to when I'm ready to learn it, easy to pack stuff into an executable (maybe? Haven't tried it yet) 05:53:23 Just wish AST manipulation was as smooth as in Lisp, but that's an academic point 05:54:28 It's one of the few languages where that's even a concept, anyways. 05:55:27 API-wise, Tk is perhaps the best GUI library around. 06:01:47 I do wish there was an easier way than using an library (such as an OO system) to make commands that take options like -whatever 06:02:58 Also add opcode "impulse_tracker" which emulates Impulse Tracker's playback, given the necessary parameters corresponding to the sample and instrument settings, including tables for sample data and instrument envelopes. 06:21:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:28:17 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:28:36 -!- Slereah has joined. 06:28:43 -!- nooga has joined. 06:37:29 -!- ogrom has joined. 07:04:42 The frequency modulation in SoX does not seem to work...... 07:08:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:08:24 -!- copumpkin has joined. 07:08:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joDonPTyMKA 07:14:09 very cool 07:16:26 it's as if, during the 80s and 90s, multimedia was an artform exploring it's constraints, and producing some wonderfully awful results 07:20:47 That is freaking surreal. 07:21:28 -!- variable has quit (Excess Flood). 07:22:14 -!- variable has joined. 07:25:35 -!- david_werecat has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:31:03 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:50:20 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:07:43 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:07:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 08:25:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:28:27 Hi 08:59:32 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:01:43 -!- nooga has joined. 09:04:55 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:23:30 -!- derdon has joined. 10:18:50 bork 10:50:31 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:52:16 {} = {x is good:x is a multimedia app from the 90s} 10:52:54 i have a feeling that i might not have got that right 11:00:37 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:07:46 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 11:11:50 -!- derdon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:15:42 -!- asiekierka has joined. 11:56:42 -!- azaq23 has joined. 11:56:53 -!- azaq23 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 11:57:22 -!- azaq23 has joined. 12:04:44 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:05:15 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:11:46 augur: re: rent-a-friend. i almost thought he was steve martin for a minute, the way he was acting. very steve martinish feel. 12:14:29 so is my set building working there? 12:14:56 wha 12:15:13 {} = {x is good:x is a multimedia app from the 90s} 12:15:33 the wikipedia page wasn't very clear... {F(x) : P(x)} is the most general form of set builder notation. For example, {x's owner : x is a dog} is the set of all dog owners. 12:16:29 the intended message is that the set of good multimedia apps from the 90s is the empty set 12:17:11 i understood it but it could have been written funnier 12:17:20 i don't write funny 12:17:50 quintopia: well im wondering is it actually valid? 12:18:10 the difference between F(x) and P(x) is so difficult to ascertain 12:18:30 even in high school, i was criticized for not being funny when trying to apply academia to funny situations 12:20:16 F(x) is usually a transformation of the selected element, for instance extracting a related value via a known relation, or just wrapping it in some FOL expression 12:20:33 P is the predicate that determines what the set is 12:21:04 so {x: x is a good multimedia app from the 90s} would have been more standard 12:21:37 ahh.. so i basically didn't need to use F(x) :P 12:22:04 but {x: good(x) and x in 90s multimedia apps} might be closer to what you were trying to convey 12:22:38 hmm ok ill let you in on the secret 12:22:51 i like abusing notations to figure them out 12:22:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:22:58 or {x: good(x)} \bigcap {x: 90sMultimediaApp(x)} 12:22:58 but it's not actually very smart 12:23:29 i don't know why 12:24:26 basically i figure if i do things the way everyone else does them i will only produce what everyone else has produced 12:25:49 my thought processes are really broken from the perspective of the things i try to think 12:26:37 but, as an average joe they're not any more broken than the next person 12:27:18 does it work? 12:27:35 i will endeavour to give a concrete example 12:27:51 reading books can lead to an infinite regression of reading books 12:28:55 i dont need an example. i just want to know if avoiding the conventional rigor leads to increased originality as measured by output of quality original work 12:30:40 i like to think so, but my belief in it's originality tends to be due to a lack of knowing what work has been done 12:31:44 go you there, well 12:32:44 what i am finding is that it seems the capacity to enjoy is fairly independant of the things being enjoyed 12:33:26 and, i don't know if it's possible, if it's worthwhile, or how the capacity to enjoy things is cultivated 12:36:52 also, it is easy to make the fallacy that enjoyment is inherently good 12:40:22 ... that is 12:40:54 if the things which already exist are sufficient to enjoy then for what purpose do i strive to find new original things to do 12:41:23 and if the things which already exist are not sufficient to enjoy, then why should whatever i do be any better? 12:42:22 and from this position, it seems the thing to do is learn to appreciate 12:47:36 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:48:09 Hello 13:24:33 Only now, 6 years later, am I processing that a bug that I reported was fixed in WINE 13:24:47 http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4242 13:24:53 I made a difference to software! 13:31:24 byond... i might have known 13:36:47 -!- MDream has changed nick to NDyde. 13:46:52 :) 14:02:24 Is it possible that a Turing-machine with a tape is unprovable whether it halts or not? 14:08:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 14:08:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:09:20 beef tartare 14:09:35 I prefer medium-rare? 14:16:01 -!- elliott__ has joined. 14:20:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:20:47 if there was a means to use a complete imaginary turing machine, via magic at almost instantaneous completion rates, would anyone bother? 14:21:27 Nah, they're really hard to program in 14:21:54 I would 14:23:56 i think its really fascinating that a thing can be useful even when it only exists in the imagination 14:26:38 -!- augur has joined. 14:27:33 * itidus21 manufactures a flying car in his imagination called an itidus mobile which can theoretically let you drive around town without roads. 14:29:04 world peace is for fascists 14:29:21 `addquote world peace is for fascists 14:29:31 851) world peace is for fascists 14:29:49 `quote 14:29:53 520) That's the stupidest thing I've heard all morning. (Though I did wake up five minutes ago, so I haven't had a chance to hear very much.) The "Why are you still asleep? I told the cat to wake you up." comment does come pretty close, though. 14:30:10 Taneb: beef tartare is different dish than steak 14:30:39 itidus21, is it a gondola? 14:30:54 hmm 14:31:01 i ought to define it 14:31:36 it travels at O(n) speeds (which most powered vehicles seem to do) 14:31:58 actually wait.. 14:32:01 they don't... 14:32:26 yes.. it travels at O(n) speeds as a function of the distance you wish to travel 14:33:11 and it is composed mostly of vestigial automobile components 14:33:22 O(n) speed? and n is... the number of items in the list? 14:33:38 for example, 14:34:35 the ratio of the time it takes to travel 1 kilometres, to the time it takes to travel 5 kilometres, is 1:5 14:35:45 i quit this game 14:35:47 that's O(1) speed 14:36:02 aha 14:36:38 i think that metaphor would work better to describe the speed of a bus as a function of the number of passengers it collects 14:39:14 ... yeah i quit 14:43:28 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 15:03:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:07:10 elliott__: I seem to have gained your aptitude at not-sleeping. 15:07:30 418 I'm a teapot 15:07:33 elliott__: It's 09:07. I have yet to sleep. 15:07:39 I seem to get a bit silly when I'm sleep deprived 15:07:53 Is it possible that a Turing-machine with a tape is unprovable whether it halts or not? <-- certainly, otherwise you could use a proof search to solve the halting problem 15:09:26 * oerjan is assuming Taneb knows that the halting problem is unsolvable, although the difference to what he asks is not very big... 15:09:34 Yes 15:09:45 I didn't realise proof searches were possible 15:10:20 -!- NDyde has changed nick to MDude. 15:12:26 a proof is just a string fulfilling some requirements, and when the proof is totally formal and detailed it's easy to check them automatically 15:12:54 clomp 15:12:59 That makes sense 15:13:03 -!- oonbotti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:13:40 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:13:59 -!- augur has joined. 15:14:02 it's just that there are exponentially many strings to check of any size, and there is no computable bound for how large a size you need (or else you could use _that_ to check whether a proof of halting exists) 15:15:22 which means it is completely impractical to search for the proof, but still trivial as pure mathematical principle 15:21:51 -!- oonbotti has joined. 15:22:50 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:26:30 -!- oonbotti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:26:58 -!- oonbotti has joined. 15:28:47 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:29:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:30:30 hi oerjan 15:31:30 hi elliott__ 15:31:44 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:32:33 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined. 15:33:12 so, i guess what that means is you never want to rely on a brute force search 15:34:04 intuitively anyway 15:37:32 -!- oonbotti has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:39:40 -!- oonbotti has joined. 15:48:42 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:06:52 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:12:26 i'm not sure it means that 16:13:44 I'm pretty sure it means that there must exist a turing-machine such that the problem as to whether it halts or not is unprovable 16:14:05 that i can agree with 16:16:43 unless you happen to have an oracle for the halting problem 16:18:45 or two 16:20:07 -!- sirdancealot7 has joined. 16:21:28 -!- TeruFSX has joined. 16:24:02 no, using two is strictly less powerful due to interoracular bickering 16:24:16 Taneb, yes. 16:24:48 hmm 16:24:59 what would such a TM be, anyway? I can't imagine any such 16:25:04 although obviously they must exist 16:25:07 It's pretty simple to do, just compute a machine that halts iff . 16:25:21 Although admittedly formal proof is a bit harder. 16:25:26 er? 16:25:32 let's say you make a TM whose haltingness depends on goldbach's 16:25:36 that doesn't mean its haltingness is _unprovable_ 16:25:42 just that we don't know which it is 16:26:15 you just use the godel sentence for your proof logic, duh 16:26:34 oh 16:26:55 There's also that thing about proving whether you can reach I by multiplying a given set of 3x3 matrices which is unsolvable in the general case. 16:27:06 oerjan: ...and you make a TM which depends on the truthness of that by implementing a proof search? 16:27:06 -!- Madoka-Kaname has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:27:08 Which is pretty easy to implement on a TM. 16:27:11 that's awesome :) 16:27:13 elliott__: yep 16:27:19 er, by truthiness i mean provability, but 16:27:23 *truthness 16:27:41 but hang on, you /know/ such a machine doesn't halt, because there is no such proof... 16:27:49 or, er, but you can't prove that 16:27:49 -!- Madoka-Kaname has joined. 16:27:53 :P 16:27:53 :( 16:27:57 :''''( 16:28:06 logic is depressing 16:28:16 it keeps forgetting to make sense 16:28:22 knowing that something is unprovable sadly means having a proof in some higher sense 16:29:06 oerjan: has anyone figured out why logic is so fucked up 16:29:10 you can prove that something is unprovable without making a statement on whether that something is true or not, I guess ... unless true means provable? 16:29:14 like why isn't it just NORMAL!!!! 16:29:33 olsner: "true but unprovable" is a thing 16:37:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:40:13 elliott__: is that what the Gödel stuff says? 16:40:24 olsner: yes 16:40:36 (more or less. ask oerjan.) 16:40:56 but as I understood that, the truthiness is judged by a different system than the one it's unprovable in 16:42:25 Taneb's proof of the Halting Problem's undecidability: if there was a Turing-machine routine that could decide whether Turing-machines halt or not in finite time, there would be a Turing-machine that checked itself to see whether it halts or not, then if it does, goes into an infinite loop, otherwise halts 16:42:47 It's probably either invalid or somebody else's proof too 16:42:52 "Taneb's" proof 16:43:12 elliott__, this is the internet. I go by Taneb here 16:43:15 elliott's proof that 2 + 2 = 4: 2 = SS0, 4 = SSSS0, proceed by reduction 16:43:37 Taneb: no the joke is that it is the standard proof of the halting problem 16:43:47 Oh 16:43:53 I guess it's a pretty good proof, then 16:44:00 Good as in simple and works 16:44:11 well more or less. you are missing the technical trick that makes you able to _do_ that 16:44:13 Either that or I'd heard it before 16:44:41 (diagonalization) 16:45:10 i quite like tying the halting problem to a form of the Entscheidungsproblem 16:45:11 It seems quite similar to Quine's paradox 16:45:30 if you have a halting oracle, you can decide statements of the form (exists (n : Nat), p n) 16:45:36 for computable predicates p 16:45:41 q.e.d. 16:45:52 Ignore the fact that I am in possession of the book Gödel, Escher and Bach 16:47:39 O KAY 16:48:21 who is oerjan saying ok to : ' ( 16:48:23 is it me 16:48:27 does oerjan not like my prueffe 16:48:43 no it's Taneb this time 16:49:23 (I've pretty much permanently withdrawn it from my school library) 16:49:46 good, good, keeps it out of the hand of innocent people 16:50:19 BUT IN LESS THAN A YEAR I'LL HAVE TO RETURN IT 17:11:26 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:13:36 -!- calamari has joined. 17:24:28 -!- ogrom has joined. 17:57:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:08:38 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:13:45 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:14:10 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:16:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 18:20:08 -!- monqy has joined. 18:20:52 monqy: hello 18:20:56 helo 18:21:21 you dropped an l 18:21:23 here it is: l 18:28:05 helllo 18:28:13 monqy: hellp :( 18:28:24 :( 18:29:01 :( 18:30:25 you know what's hard? cleaning and unseizing bearings 18:30:34 hi 18:30:39 hi 18:31:00 I've spent several hours over the past couple of days getting thoroughly mucky hands 18:31:19 and I am in a BAD MOOD 18:31:22 anyone remember the various identities of vixey/fax? can someone PM them to me? 18:31:39 copumpkin: i do 18:32:24 "vixey" makes me think of cron. Which is wrong, because that's Vixie 18:33:14 discipline your brain 18:33:28 Mmm, pixie cron 18:33:48 good for running executables in ELF format? 18:34:34 monqy: how do i discipline;,help 18:34:41 elliott__: shock collar 18:34:57 monqy: that sounds unpleasant :''( 18:35:02 wear it as a headband for extra pow & bang 18:35:15 pretend it's a bandana to feel cool 18:35:27 monqy: are you in fact an SMTP server? 18:35:48 yes how did you know 18:35:49 monqy: i don't want pow & bang 18:35:54 monqy: i don't LIKE pow & bang!!! 18:35:57 monqy: you said HELO 18:36:03 but the bang is bang for your buck 18:36:08 monqy: what's a buck!!! 18:36:10 the pow is pow for your buck but nobody says that 18:36:26 elliott__: I think it's a male deer 18:36:27 a buck is like money but instead of being worth anything it's a joke 18:36:33 the opposite of a doe 18:36:44 monqy: i don't want to spend money on getting electrocuted!!!!!!! 18:36:49 that's the worst use of money i can think of 18:38:06 monqy: release me from the pows & bangs :'( 18:38:15 it was only a suggestion 18:38:24 if you want your brain to run free & wild don't do it!!!! 18:38:49 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 18:39:14 monqy: i don't know what i want :,( 18:40:17 alternate disciplined and undisciplined to get a taste of both 18:40:34 monqy: but what if the discipline stops me from becoming undisciplined??? 18:41:21 ``too bad'' - brain 18:41:23 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `too: not found 18:42:18 monqy: who... who is brian 18:42:25 does brian control me 18:42:28 a friend 18:42:29 was i brian all along?????? 18:42:37 a friend who controls you 18:42:42 a friend who was you all along 18:42:44 that doesn't sound very friendly!!! 18:42:48 can you tell brian to stop please 18:42:49 I'm brian and so's my Wife 18:45:05 -!- sirdancealot7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:50:07 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:50:39 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:51:34 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:52:09 -!- MoALTz has joined. 18:57:47 Hello! 19:00:08 hi 19:00:40 hi 19:06:49 hi 19:07:18 What advantages does having first-class modules grant? 19:07:27 Have I got the right understanding of "module"? 19:08:08 they're first class 19:08:16 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:08:27 it means the post office delivers them faster 19:08:31 :) 19:09:21 it means you get a newspaper, free coffee and air conditioning 19:11:21 It means there's this graphical BBS client to use them with. 19:12:02 wow it's an elliott__ 19:12:08 you wanted me to say things about unicode 19:12:15 you may have heard all my unicode trivia 19:12:23 elliott__: why are you not elliott? 19:12:27 do you know about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O 19:12:30 eunuck-code 19:13:24 kmc: tell me about unicode big endian 19:16:21 -_- 19:21:10 -!- ogrom has joined. 19:23:09 -!- calamari has left ("Leaving"). 19:25:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:28:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:36:01 How did they even write that. 19:36:35 write what? 19:37:06 The Multiocular O, I believe 19:37:25 they wrote it like this: http://www.stsl.ru/manuscripts/medium.php?col=1&manuscript=308&pagefile=308-0249 19:38:11 note that the unicode reference glyph has 7 eyes, but the only original document i've seen with this character (just linked) has 10 eyes 19:39:12 originally wikipedia had no clue about this character 19:39:23 i spent some time tracking it down with the help of others 19:39:27 that was an adventure 19:40:02 you probably hold the world record in unicode-derived fun-having then 19:40:03 it's quite lucky that i was able to find a copy of a certain soviet era paleography text on russian rapidshare 19:40:06 haha 19:40:09 i doubt it 19:40:28 maybe someone on the committees 19:40:37 you think they have fun? 19:40:38 or someone who has implemented a unicode-aware terminal emulator 19:40:51 * kmc works on a unicode-aware terminal emulator, but not much on that side of it 19:40:53 "fun" 19:42:25 That's not even "Fun" 19:50:25 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:50:42 -!- Taneb has joined. 20:12:24 Why is #haskell so crowded 20:17:08 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 20:24:31 yeah i always wondered that 20:26:09 If a language's popularity corresponded linearly with the amount of people in the appropriate channel in #freenode, Haskell would be the second most popular language, after Python 20:26:25 i mean, it is an interesting channel full of very smart people who say interesting, smart things 20:26:48 but i still don't understand how this supports 900+ lurkers 20:27:14 many of whom I assume don't understand the majority of what's said 20:27:31 People believe in intelligence by osmosis? 20:27:49 That's why Discovery Channel is so popular 20:27:52 also at this point the channel is largely noob questions and bad answers to noob questions, and arguments over how to answer noob questions 20:28:02 all of which gets tediously repetitive 20:29:08 and one assumes, unappealing to longtime lurkers 20:31:24 also a lot of people have their client lurk in a channel but don't ever read it 20:31:57 I've set my client to beep on new messages 20:32:04 that 20:32:05 must 20:32:06 get 20:32:07 annoying 20:32:07 So I rarely actually lurk 20:32:19 I'm good at ignoring things, I guess? 20:32:38 so why have the beep at all 20:33:14 Because I get bored, and it sometimes distracts me from boredom? 20:33:51 Please don't try to get into an argument about this, because I know it's stupid 20:34:16 fair enough 20:51:53 I've set my client to beep on new messages 20:51:54 lol 20:52:07 i mean, it is an interesting channel full of very smart people who say interesting, smart things 20:52:07 haha 20:52:08 It stops if I leave it 20:52:14 this is a good comedy routine, you two 20:52:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: BRB). 20:54:01 elliott__: do you disagree? 20:54:31 well have you been in #haskell recently 20:54:38 not in some months 20:54:44 i flip through logs occasionally 20:54:48 try it sometime 20:55:10 it's going downhill, but unless things have dramatically accelerated then i stand by my statement 20:55:26 i mean there are smart people but there is too much noise to sustain any kind of smart conversation for long imo 20:56:02 yeah 20:56:06 it's been trending in that direction 20:56:18 what are the main types of noise 20:56:42 ...as well as some usual suspects of people who think they are one of the very smart/knowledgeable people but are, in fact, not 20:56:52 kmc: it is mostly just the typical newbie stuff 20:57:17 kmc: the main problem is that it has a lot of people who answer questions and very few who are good at it 20:57:23 yeah 20:57:25 and the people who are bad at answering questions trip over themselves trying to salvage their explanation 20:57:30 which fills a few secreens 20:57:31 *screen 20:57:32 s 20:57:35 yeah 20:57:43 the person who asked the question is ill-served by this 20:57:48 and everyone else in the channel to 20:57:49 too* 20:57:49 everyone is ill-served by it 20:58:02 this is why i kept agitating for people to write this shit down 20:58:14 like, there is far too much oral tradition 20:58:21 well it will not stop anyone 20:58:27 things which are important to know which you can't find out except by lurking in #haskell 20:59:05 i wanted wiki pages which are curated by the community, which have not just someone's pet explanation but a collaboratively edited consensus of the best way to explain something 20:59:11 if I cared I would probably ask and self-answer an SO question whenever I see a common question come up for the nth time but it is really above my pay grade to do that, so I just ignore it 20:59:23 but i realized that everyone (myself included) is too committed to their pet explanation and has no real data on which ones are better 20:59:48 answering SO questions got old after a while anyway, I only answer them if I see one with a simple two-paragraph answer I know I can explain well 21:00:20 i had some other gripes with #haskell too 21:00:21 besides the noise 21:00:26 i don't think those will get better either 21:00:29 you don't say :) 21:00:37 for the last N years I've only ever said anything in #haskell because I mistook it for either #esoteric or #haskell-blah 21:00:45 so now I've set things up so that the next time I reboot, #haskell won't be joined automatically 21:01:02 i tried a little to get people to talk in #haskell-in-depth 21:01:06 but it didn't work :/ 21:02:49 ooh, managed to halve the size of the native code for my Android app by twiddling with some gcc flags 21:03:08 but I probably broke it too 21:03:27 accidentally all the code or something 21:08:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 21:10:42 Hello 21:10:51 bye Taneb 21:12:54 -!- nortti_ has joined. 21:23:00 olsner: -fomit-text-segments? :P 21:34:06 -!- 20WAAXGSE has joined. 21:34:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:43:03 `welcome 20WAAXGSE 21:43:06 pikhq_: actually it produced working code! :) 21:43:06 20WAAXGSE: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 21:43:12 most of the magic was in the -fwhole-program and -fno-unwind-tables options 21:44:26 -!- mroman has joined. 21:44:26 -fwhole-program did remove some stuff, but a couple of attribute((externally_visible)) annotations put back the actually-needed part of that stuff 21:44:47 why is it putting unwind tables in? did you try -fno-exceptions? 21:45:15 android's default setting is -fno-exceptions -funwind-tables 21:45:35 what are you talking about? 21:45:38 (for stack traces, which is silly since my software won't crash) 21:45:46 of course not 21:48:09 added some fun-safe optimizations for good measure too 21:51:01 natch 21:51:26 -funsafe-math -ffuzzy-math -fsilly-math 21:52:29 -funsafe-math -fuzzy-math -friendly-math 21:52:48 -!- nooga has joined. 21:54:03 -liberty 21:54:35 -family-math -fantasy-math -finnish-math 21:55:02 fun wind tables? 21:55:06 Oh no, not -finnish-math D-8 21:55:28 why not? 21:57:30 -frog-math -flower-math -fetish-math -functional-math 21:57:42 hooray for -fnew-math 21:57:54 i am not sure which set these belong to, and i don't care to know 21:58:43 -f1984-math. now 2+2 equaps 5 21:58:46 Did you hear about the law fetishist? He got off on a technicality. 21:59:01 -fold-math 21:59:21 -folder-math 21:59:43 -fugly-code 21:59:59 -messy-math 22:00:24 -fussy-math 22:00:40 i saw a road sign today: "Humped Zebra Crossing" 22:01:12 :D 22:03:51 olsner: good one 22:05:31 i saw a road sign today that said "hi" 22:10:08 well did you say it back to it? 22:10:26 maybe I should build a program to take an aspell database and find all words that can be prefixed with -f or -m and produce another words 22:11:14 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:15:16 -!- copumpkin has changed nick to latroia. 22:15:23 -!- latroia has changed nick to copumpkin. 22:18:00 olsner: aspell databse? just use /usr/share/dict/words :P (or is that an aspell database?) 22:18:51 oh! that's true 22:19:30 I once wrote a program that used aspell to build a list of all swedish words (obviously the words file didn't have those) 22:19:40 not aspell itself, but its files 22:24:55 You mean aspell dump master `aspell dump dicts | grep '^sv_'` 22:30:12 Gregor: swedish lets you put words together, as I understand it 22:30:27 Mmm 22:30:30 Like German. 22:30:36 So you need the powerset of all words. 22:34:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:58:05 -!- Frooxius|TabletP has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122204]). 23:22:35 shachaf: Is nand` holding up the channel again? 23:22:37 I can't tell what's going on. 23:23:01 elliott__: It happens. :-( 23:23:28 Yesterday: 23:23:31 03:28 In the grand scheme of things, #haskell is a stupid waste of time. 23:23:34 03:28 I don't know why I even go there. :-( 23:24:05 (Has anyone told nand` that he wastes a lot of time?) 23:24:54 `addquote rogues using maces is traditional [...] not D&D tradition, people coshing people in back alleys tradition 23:24:57 852) rogues using maces is traditional [...] not D&D tradition, people coshing people in back alleys tradition 23:25:04 thand` 23:26:53 shachaf: where did you say that? 23:27:10 #haskell 23:27:34 Maybe it's a sign. 23:27:44 You say "there" to mean "here"? 23:28:01 Poor ski. 23:28:23 elliott__: ski isn't a waste of time! 23:28:28 who's nand` 23:28:31 shachaf: I mean, he seems to waste a lot of time explaining things meticulously to people it'll be lost on. 23:28:41 kmc: Someone who was probably new to #haskell when you left, or perhaps not even there left. 23:28:59 i don't remember them 23:29:02 reading logs 23:29:10 they remind me a lot of me in #haskell some years ago 23:29:22 down to gratuitous use of non-ascii 23:29:27 maybe i was also wasting a lot of time 23:29:36 You know the people who develop a decent enough understanding of Haskell to write programs in it and then get frozen at that level of knowledge forever? And then start explaining things badly? 23:29:36 i certainly explained things meticulously to people it was lost on 23:29:46 yeah 23:29:50 And arguing with people over language mechanics they don't know enough about to argue on the topic of competently? 23:29:58 they get frozen because they don't actually have anything they want to *do* with haskell 23:29:58 He's one of those. 23:30:05 (Hey, did you know Google indexes the logs of this channel?) 23:30:07 elliott__: Am I one of those? 23:30:07 ( : ( ) 23:30:21 shachaf: No, you're annoying in more creative ways! 23:30:26 I think that's a compliment? 23:30:31 elliott__: Are you one of those? 23:30:39 No. 23:30:59 down to gratuitous use of non-ascii 23:31:05 This irritates me more than it should. 23:31:13 hmm, I think I'm one of those... except I don't explain stuff to people in #haskell 23:31:16 I just idle in there 23:31:17 What gratuitous use? 23:31:18 i only noticed because chrome fails to detect the encoding on logs 23:31:23 nand` uses smart quotes 23:31:26 I mean, Unicode quotes and aposrtophes are obviously more correct. 23:31:30 squotes 23:31:34 But I can't help but perceive their use in casual conversation on IRC as posturing. 23:31:38 squaschaf 23:31:45 yeah i don't know 23:31:52 I wonder if differentiated opening and closing quotes will live for much longer? 23:31:53 elliott__: How do you feel about «»? 23:31:55 anyway yeah 23:32:01 They're not on anybody's keyboards. 23:32:05 Wikipedia doesn't use them, by policy. 23:32:08 people who "learn haskell" but don't ever use it get stuck at a particular level 23:32:11 maybe he composes his messages in Word and pastes them into mIRC 23:32:13 i'm not sure if i'm one of these people or not 23:32:21 i've used haskell in a few cases where "use haskell" was not a design goal 23:32:23 but not that many 23:32:30 I guess typesetters take longer to forget about these things than everyone else. 23:32:33 nothing really big or production grade 23:32:50 elliott__: I think you dislike nand` for whatever reason and that makes you find everything else they say annoying. 23:32:50 some small scripts, and some research-quality / assignment-quality code 23:33:00 And if $PERSON_YOU_LIKE used the quotes, you wouldn't care. 23:33:15 is it less annoying than ``ski-quotes'' ? 23:33:32 My point is rationalization. 23:33:57 I like ski's style. He's very meticulous about quoting and not breaking use-mention and so on. 23:34:18 ski is awesome 23:34:27 shachaf: it looks like nobody responded to your comment, either 23:34:30 Talking about people in the third-person is weird. 23:34:31 perhaps they thought you were joking 23:34:36 kmc: Which comment? 23:34:37 Let's talk about ski in the first person instead. 23:34:45 that it's a stupid waste of time 23:34:53 kmc: I was just generally annoyed. 23:35:01 i really wish i could go to boston haskell this month 23:35:05 I should probably leave #haskell before getting to the point of making those comments. 23:35:06 but i will be in the wrong continent 23:35:12 shachaf: worked for me 23:35:20 elliott__: I think talking about me in first person could get confusing 23:35:21 kmc: Perhaps it's more accurate to say that Boston will be in the wrong continent. 23:35:22 i still like the people there, and the language 23:35:27 if i stayed longer then maybe i would not 23:35:51 shachaf: perhaps! 23:35:57 i could go to Boston, UK and see if there's some Haskell there 23:36:15 it is... not a very significant town 23:36:23 UK? 23:36:26 That's not even a continent. 23:36:30 olsner: Yes. elliott__ should stop talking about me. 23:36:35 More like "I'm not on any continent" 23:36:43 and pretty far away 23:36:53 kmc: Coming to England? 23:37:00 kmc: There's a lot of Haskell in the area of Bellingham, WA. 23:37:51 i'm in England right now! 23:38:07 (Wait, is nand` really arguing for putStrLn :: IO Void that returns undefined?) 23:38:07 kmc: Going to visit elliott? 23:38:14 where's elliott__? 23:38:18 *String -> IO Void 23:38:20 whelliott? 23:38:20 kmc: Hexham. 23:38:24 elliott__: sounds like it 23:38:25 North-east of the country. 23:38:27 Hex hamuk. 23:38:34 Nearest city Newcastle. 23:38:42 Newcastle Upon Thyme 23:38:44 Or something. 23:38:59 is that a different Newcastle? 23:39:19 kmc: I read _Cat's Cradle_ recently. 23:39:24 It's enjoyable. 23:39:56 * shachaf is currently in a town with ~9000 people. 23:40:16 sounds small 23:40:49 No, Newcastle upon Tyne is it. 23:40:53 kmc: Whereabouts are you, anyway? 23:42:09 I'm in Slough (plz. hold the throwing of rotten vegetables until the end) 23:42:21 kmc: I think you mean "pls.". 23:42:30 That's the British abbrvtn. 23:43:02 heh 23:43:07 * elliott__ wonders how kmc ended up in Slough. 23:43:15 friends of a friend live in slough 23:43:16 TRAAAAAIN? 23:43:24 so it's free accommodation in a place which is close enough to london 23:43:29 (30 min train ride, comes every 30 minutes) 23:43:40 but actually i slept in cambridge last night 23:43:49 I've never been to London. But I'm pretty sure it's awful. 23:43:57 I've been to London! 23:43:57 shachaf: yes, or rather train bus plane bus bus boat train train train train 23:44:38 plane boston → dublin, ferry dublin → holyhead, trains holyhead → slough 23:44:49 and some local transport along the way 23:45:33 kmc: I took a ferry the other day! 23:45:36 where? 23:45:41 wherry 23:46:16 Seattle ↣ Bainbridge 23:46:43 Canada! 23:47:04 Seattle ↯ 23:47:11 Alaska? 23:47:16 Teleporterry 23:47:41 you should hitchhike to alaska 23:47:43 to one-up lexande 23:47:52 Hmm, maybe that's Bellingham. 23:48:07 Whence whither did lexande hitchhike? 23:48:17 kmc: You should go visit Taneb. He's probably more interesting than me. 23:48:31 elliott__: You should come visit California! 23:48:36 Did you know kmc used to live there? 23:48:44 * elliott__ wonders if it'd be pointlessly derailing to tell nand` that's not what "non-total" really means. 23:48:50 (Yes.) 23:48:53 (To my line, I mean.) 23:49:18 shachaf: he went from Cambridge, MA to St John's, Newfoundland (i.e. the End of the Earth) 23:49:31 elliott__: you can't derail a train that's already fallen off the bridge into the river 23:49:46 * kmc used to live in California 23:49:55 but I never lived in the parts of California which I would want to live in now 23:50:09 elliott__: Yes, don't visit Pasadena. 23:50:17 pasadena is... fine 23:50:25 Visit the barea! 23:50:27 but there's little reason to visit as a generic tourist thing 23:50:43 if you know someone there or have business at caltech, then go, it's fairly nice 23:50:58 Isn't there NASA stuff there or something? 23:51:02 Pasadena is a decent city of middling size, if you ignore that it's glommed onto LA 23:51:11 Phantom_Hoover: yes, JPL is out there, although technically it's in the next city over 23:51:24 I only really know of it from the twist ending to the musical version of the War of the Worlds. 23:51:25 La Cañada Flintridge 23:51:59 it's far enough that the summer students who had jobs at JPL had to wake up at butt o' clock to get a bus out there 23:54:31 shachaf: I think I don't really like the Bay Area, only SF 23:54:59 Berkeley and some of the other bits right around SF are all right 23:55:04 but South Bay is super sprawly 23:55:13 "Bay area man prefers science fiction to bay area" 23:55:19 it's nice-looking sprawl full of people i like, but... 23:55:52 Didn't you say how nice-looking sprawls are even worse than regular sprawls? 23:56:00 yeah 23:56:10 Because they contribute to the downfall of American society. 23:56:10 well i don't know if south bay counts in that 23:56:11 Or something. 23:56:16 they all do to varying degrees 23:56:22 i think i meant a different sort of nice looking sprawl 23:56:32 south bay seems to at least have apartment housing at similar density to pasadena 23:56:35 * shachaf isn't an expert in sprawls. 23:56:39 mixed in with the detached houses 23:57:00 i was talking about rural-burbia places where everyone has a huge custom house on a nice landscaped plot set way back from the road 23:57:24 they look nice but are even more shackled to cars than south bay type stuff 23:57:52 though some of these people also make part time money from actual agricultural activites 23:58:22 it seems to be a thing in new hampshire and vermont that, you live in vaguely suburban area and commute to work, but you also have a few cows and chickens, partly as pets, but you can sell the milk and eggs as well 23:58:26 or something 23:58:39 i met someone who had 3 geese, 2 chickens, and 2 dogs as pets 23:58:45 man did you know i used to think new england was a state 23:58:45 one of those dogs was probably the largest dog i have ever seen 23:58:52 it was bigger than many bears 23:58:55 Phantom_Hoover: :) 23:59:07 there is... little reason for non-USians to distinguish the different states of New England 23:59:13 they're all small and close together 23:59:31 Phantom_Hoover: did you also think New Scotland and New Wales were states? 23:59:32 and i got really confused when i was looking at a map and i was like "where's new england, isn't it near new hampshire" 23:59:49 "it would make sense, old hampshire is in old england" 23:59:57 New Scotland is a state in France 23:59:59 kmc, well there is Nova Scotia.