00:00:49 -!- nortti_ has joined. 00:08:53 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:11:07 -!- kwertii has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:11:07 -!- kwertii2 has changed nick to kwertii. 00:14:54 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:14:54 -!- kwertii2 has quit (Changing host). 00:14:55 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:15:48 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:15:48 -!- kwertii2 has changed nick to kwertii. 00:21:42 -!- kwertii2 has joined. 00:23:02 -!- kwertii has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:23:03 -!- kwertii2 has changed nick to kwertii. 00:34:52 -!- augur has joined. 01:08:28 -!- nortti_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:08:45 -!- nortti_ has joined. 01:15:48 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: nuq). 01:26:55 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:27:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:29:00 kwertii, you probably want to fix your client and/or connection. 01:29:57 -!- kwertii has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:31:27 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:31:28 -!- kwertii has quit (Changing host). 01:31:28 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:34:02 "Reässuring" with a diaeresis mark, yes/yes? 01:38:04 reälly 01:39:23 How the heck do you pronounce "really" X-D 01:40:58 Gregor: yes 01:41:21 Gregor: Would you spell "subordinate" with one? 01:49:28 Gregor: straïght forward, of coürse 01:50:01 shachaf: There's no diaeresis in subordinate... heck, there aren't even two vowels in a row, so there's not even the possibility of a diaeresis. 01:50:21 I think of a diaeresis on a vowel as meaning something like a glottal stop. 01:50:33 ... well, then you think of it wrong... 01:51:23 True, it's not quite a glottal stop. 01:51:28 But it's something pretty close... 01:51:35 By which you mean "not even slightly". 01:51:42 use diäereses however yoü want, yoü have poetic license 01:51:58 oerjan: Oh you, not using a diaeresis mark on the ONLY diaeresis in that sentence. 01:52:17 How would you differentiate "su-bor-din" with "sub-or-din"? 01:52:25 I guess that's not what a diaeresis is. 01:52:35 Indeed 'tisn't. 01:52:47 If it were a glottal stop, it'd parse as "t" in many accents. 01:52:51 Gregor: actually i'm not sure aboüt the first ä 01:53:09 oerjan: Yeah, that one's a bit... odd. 01:53:29 Di-aeresis? Certainly it's not diägram, is it? 01:53:34 pikhq_: Glottal stops have nothing to do with 't's. 01:54:01 There are some accents that pronounce 't' as glottal stop in some words, but those aren't that common, I think. 01:54:09 Virtually every accent. 01:54:22 You people must mean a different thing than I do by "glottal stop". 01:54:24 Say "fatten" 01:54:37 OK? 01:54:44 No glottal stop there. 01:54:56 I'm referring to IPA ʔ 01:54:57 I don't know where you're from, but if it's in the Americas, then you're lying or don't know what a glottal stop is. 01:55:07 i.e. "glottal stop". 01:55:29 "It is called the glottal stop because the technical term for the gap between the vocal folds, which is closed up in the production of this sound, is the glottis." 01:55:29 Gregor: actually i'm surprised to see diäeresis seems to have the second syllable stressed, i thoüght it was the third 01:55:39 I don't think you're closing your glottis when you say "fatten". 01:56:08 shachaf: You are if you're pronouncing it with a General American accent. 01:57:31 Gregor: I'm thinking of the Hebrew letter "aleph". 01:57:50 possibly "fatten" has two articulation points for the tt? 01:57:53 You also pronounce 't' glottally with many words in UK English, though which ones get done that way are different. 01:58:20 Or the Hangul "ㅇ". 01:58:24 (I think?) 01:58:54 shachaf: "In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the letter either represents a glottal stop ([ʔ]) or indicates a hiatus (the separation of two adjacent vowels into distinct syllables with no intervening consonant)." 01:59:07 So, apparently Hebrew aleph is glottal stop and diaresis. 01:59:10 pikhq_: Right, that's just people slurring it together. 01:59:21 If you asked them to be all formal about it they'd probably pronounce the glottal stop. 01:59:31 The two are different phenomena in English. 01:59:43 OK. 02:01:42 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_consonant 02:05:21 oerjan: It's more that US English has gained a tendency to turn 't' into a glottal stop when certain vowels are between it and 'n'. 02:09:02 well yeah, i just wondered if there were intermediate cases 02:09:29 I have made five .NSF musics, although all of them are covers so far. 02:09:50 (One of them is cover of some music that originally had no harmony, so I added some.) 02:18:37 Use of channels (and order of writing): prelude.mml=AB winter.mml=ABC cv_bsnes.mml=ABCD wizardry.mml=ABDMN cvheven.mml=DGHIJKL 02:21:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:27:09 isn't a glottal stop just like... 02:27:13 a rough pause. 02:27:23 where you close off your vocal tract. 02:28:06 then yeah, we do that with our t's 02:28:09 because we're lazy. 02:28:21 either that or make a "d" sound. 02:35:29 -!- madbr has joined. 02:53:44 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 03:01:49 Gregor: Have you written music recently? What software did you use? 03:02:40 kallisti: That is a glottal stop, yes. 03:02:51 kallisti: It's where you stop and close the glottis. 03:06:00 madbr: Are you the guy who told me before if you have made the .NSF musics? 03:07:02 -!- canaima_ has joined. 03:10:45 -!- canaima_ has quit (Client Quit). 03:14:08 yes 03:15:16 I like all of them (they are the ones I like best) except for the one with smoke weed 03:15:37 I have written five .NSF musics so far although these five all of them covers, so far. 03:16:20 One was from a ZZT game, and I have added the harmony instead of having the melody only 03:16:52 Today I have made the Caverns of Zeux heaven music using DGHIJKL channels 03:17:18 (D=2A03 noise channel, GHIJKL=VRC7 channel) 03:19:58 you use mml? 03:20:04 This is first time I have used VRC7 channel. 03:20:07 madbr: Yes. 03:21:04 Do you not use MML? Well, some people like it and others hate it, use whatever you prefer 03:21:16 I use impulse tracker + converters :D 03:21:29 most other tracker dudes have moved to famitracker though 03:21:53 Well, I suppose IT+convert can work too if you want. 03:22:00 My brother uses FamiTracker. 03:22:30 I am in the process of writing a program called ITMCK. 03:25:14 what does that do? :D 03:26:17 It is a program to make a .IT file. 03:26:34 http://repo.or.cz/w/ITMCK.git 03:26:46 from mck? 03:27:21 * kallisti has been contemplating the design of a graphical DSP system for Haskell 03:27:43 similar in concept to things like MAX/MSP and pure-data 03:27:44 madbr: It is the program to compile MML to .IT 03:28:14 :O 03:28:59 kallisti: I have been thinking of use of Penrose tensor diagrams to represent morphisms in tensor categories satisfying certain additional laws (certain things can be done in the diagram depending on what features the category has, too) 03:30:21 madbr: Well, Impulse Tracker is DOS only and I don't like programs like Modplug Tracker and so on to write music either, so I want to write the new one which is better. For now looking at source-codes and documentation you might try to understand a few things. Do you like the formatting of the documentation so far? 03:31:25 ther's still schism tracker and chibi tracker 03:31:42 madbr: Yes I know about those ones too; I prefer MML 03:32:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:32:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:32:43 zzo38: does this have anything to do with DSP? 03:33:07 kallisti: Maybe. 03:33:37 this might be a weird question 03:33:38 but 03:33:45 does anyone have a identity from the UK I can borrow? 03:34:04 OVH is giving out free servers with shit specs for people in the UK. 03:34:53 ITMCK even support customize scale (which is something OpenMPT supports but only for its own format), and customize temperament (also something OpenMPT supports for its own format; ITMCK emulate it by making multiple sample headings with varying C5speed) 03:34:55 oh looks like they're free ones in the US too 03:35:06 kallisti: I have used PureData. 03:35:30 zzo38: I found it a neat concept. but anything marginally complex becomes slow and a mass of lines and boxes. 03:35:37 which is why it would be nice to use Haskell instead of "subpatches" 03:35:44 but also have subpatches as well 03:35:55 OK 03:36:00 If that is what you like. 03:37:39 I believe you can have tensor diagrams for Haskell's (->) category including lines crossing 03:38:19 I think one law that must be required to make the tensor diagrams for a category would be that (***) and (.) abide (a term I read in some of Edward Kmett's messages) 03:38:44 Although that isn't enough to allow the lines to cross 03:42:38 I like how sequencers like Reaper organize stuff in tracks 03:42:58 How do you mean? 03:42:58 can still do any graph but they're a lot easier to edit 03:43:13 Reaper works something like this: 03:43:16 you add tracks 03:43:22 each track has a stack of effects 03:43:27 applied serially 03:44:16 you can also do signal sends from one track's output to another track's input 03:44:31 and you can also add folder tracks that contain other tracks 03:44:50 if you put effects on the folder track, they are applied after mixing all the tracks in the folder 03:45:12 plus you can add as many channels as you want to any track 03:45:31 and configure your effects to use this or that channel for processing 03:45:44 between all of that you can do everything 03:46:08 OK 03:48:35 common cases (layering a bunch of synth VSTs then putting on a ton of effects) are easy to do :D 03:52:57 kallisti: Maybe you could represent them as a tensor category with two prime objects 03:59:36 tensor? prime objects?? :o 04:02:54 Do you know about category theory? 04:03:10 (I don't think "prime objects" is the standard term but I don't know if there is any so I use this) 04:05:42 nope 04:06:37 I'm more of a c++ guy tbh, haven't gotten into the haskell cult yet :D 04:07:46 Man, grow some taste. :P 04:08:34 language I've probably done the second most of is ARM assembly :D 04:10:50 a pretty nice architecture 04:19:21 You don't have to program in Haskell to know category theory, or vice versa. 04:23:31 -!- madbr has changed nick to madbr-SVO. 04:55:13 -!- trout has changed nick to const. 05:00:41 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: kwertii). 05:13:17 -!- azaq23 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:20:38 -!- madbr-SVO has changed nick to madbr. 05:21:26 I'm toying with the idea of a processor with some kind of "trace" mode for fast parallelized execution of high computation loops 05:40:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:41:43 -!- augur has joined. 06:00:20 How would you expect it to work? 06:01:02 take a loop that can be optimized 06:01:04 ex: 06:01:35 for(int i=0; i mix[i] += ((sample[mPos>>16] + (((sample[(mPos>>16)+1] - sample[mPos>>16])*(mPos&0xffff))>>16))*mVol) >> 16; 06:01:47 (that's linear interpolated sample mixing) 06:04:10 after the first pass of compilation, it looks something like this: 06:04:24 i = 0 06:04:24 if i>=nbSamples :done 06:04:24 :loop 06:04:24 t1 = [mix + i*4] 06:04:24 t2 = mPos >> 16 06:04:25 t3 = s16[sample + t2*2] 06:04:25 t4 = t2 + 1 06:04:26 t5 = s16[sample + t4*2] 06:04:26 t6 = t5 - t3 06:04:32 t7 = mPos & 0xffff 06:04:32 t8 = t6 * t7 06:04:32 t9 = t8 >> 16 06:04:32 t10 = t3 + t9 06:04:32 t11 = t10 * mVol 06:04:33 t12 = t11 >> 16 06:04:33 t13 = t1 + t12 06:04:34 [mix + i*4] = t13 06:04:34 t14 = mVol + mRamp 06:04:35 $mVol = t14 06:04:44 t15 = mPos + mFreq 06:04:44 $mPos = t15 06:04:44 t16 = i + 1 06:04:44 $i = t16 06:04:44 if $i>=nbSamples :loop 06:04:45 :done 06:05:27 (using the model where every calculation or variable write is to a new variable) 06:06:20 LLVM does something like that, I think. And I can understand how you can parallelize it when the order is not relevant. 06:07:36 well, essentially you have to figure out when each loop iteration is independent 06:07:53 if that happens you are in business 06:08:22 then you can compile it more or less directly to a series of RISC operations 06:08:56 the idea is that instead of having one execution unit and asign it a different operation on every cycle 06:09:34 have a bunch of execution units and assign each operation to a new different unit 06:10:08 so first operation t1 = [mix + i*4] gets assigned to first unit 06:10:21 t2 = mPos >> 16 gets assigned to second unit 06:10:24 etc 06:11:05 and keep the same unit executing the same op over and over for each successive cycle 06:15:30 Yes I can understand that. 06:17:00 if you can autounroll the increments you can do 2 or 4 loops per cycle 06:17:04 that's the goal 06:25:41 OK 06:27:36 It sounds like you've basically reinvented VLIW 06:28:04 yeah 06:28:24 except VLIW is a bunch of exploding designs that never took off :D 06:28:48 and you think yours will be any different? 06:29:05 :p 06:29:27 -!- asiekierka has joined. 06:30:00 trying to find a way to avoid the "intel failed design" effect :D 06:30:16 you mean the itanic disaster? ;) 06:31:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i860 06:31:43 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 06:31:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:32:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_i960 (actually a moderate success I guess) 06:33:11 And yes Itanic :D 06:34:58 though Itanic didn't really have all that many execution units 06:35:01 2 ALUs? 06:40:07 what's really needed, because compile-time scheduling is impossible in principle to get right, is a way for the compiled binary to have, not lists, but DAGs of instructions 06:40:30 so that the compiler can tell the scheduler /precisely/ what its ordering constraints are 06:41:10 then the chip can use as much parallelism as the DAG will allow (if it has enough units). But it would require a more complex scheduler 06:41:30 though less complex than the ones on modern CISC chips that try to work out for themselves what the constraints are :S 06:42:56 DAG? 06:43:02 directed acyclic graph 06:43:11 hm 06:43:39 you could have a layer based approach 06:43:57 have the compiler figure out all the first layer instructions in a loop 06:44:11 (the ones that can be computed on first cycle) 06:44:18 then do layer 2, 3 etc 06:44:27 but then that doesn't deal with variable latency 06:44:58 the compiler /can't/ figure out the scheduling, precisely because of variable latency 06:46:03 two cases here would be multiply, and memory loads 06:46:03 it has to effectively communicate a set of ordering constraints; the minimal such is the DAG, the maximal such is a list of single instructions to be executed serially (the 'classic' architecture, from the olden days) 06:46:33 multiply is constant but still relatively long and changes from cpu generation to cpu generation 06:46:50 (can go up - see early pentium II) 06:47:32 memory load is effectively unpredictable 06:47:38 indeed 06:51:25 Still, I do math heavy code and I'm slightly disappointed at the throughputs in very recent cpus :D 06:52:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 06:52:36 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:56:28 it feels like the designs are geared to database software and other branch/access heavy shit 06:56:32 web 06:56:37 that kind of crap 06:57:14 well, if you're doing anything both math heavy and parallelisable, get some FPGAs 06:57:32 I do sound 06:57:43 DSPs are dead (cpus are faster) 06:58:14 and nobody uses FPGAs, application specific hardware is mostly dead for sound 06:58:21 well it shouldn't be 06:59:17 there are some hardware DSP cards for the pro market 06:59:22 they are essentially dongles 07:00:26 There's a DSP core in my phone, they can't be dead. 07:00:53 As for math-heavy and parallelisable code, doesn't everyone do that kind of stuff on GPUs nowadays? 07:01:06 for doing FFT on phone signals DSPs makes sense 07:01:09 not for sound 07:01:16 GPUs have too high latency 07:01:24 and not enough flexible execution 07:01:36 (no feedback, bastards) 07:01:43 The phone uses the DSP for e.g. hardware-accelerated MP3 decoding. (And some video formats.) 07:01:56 makes sense on old phones 07:02:14 for recent IPhones I'm not sure why they still use the DSP 07:02:21 probably power conservation 07:02:43 It's not exactly old. And I think TI's to-be-released OMAP5 platform still includes a general-purpose DSP core, despite them having added all kinds of special-purpose video/media accelerator things. 07:02:50 but it makes no sense to use the DSP in game code 07:03:45 too platform specific and you rarely have any control over it 07:04:12 so of course the firmware sound mixer does something wrong and you have to reimplement it all in software anyways 07:04:56 Yes, well, that much is of course true. (Related example: the DSP-accelerated JPG encoder used by the phone's camera app has a hardcoded JPG quality level; if you want to change it, it needs to fall back to the CPU implementation.) 07:05:31 good luck using the iphone's mp3 decode for game music 07:06:31 you're never going to have a sample accurate loop or crossfade 07:07:20 and once a phone call plus an alarm clock happen chances are apple's media server gets confused and crashed 07:11:03 There was a guy doing general sound recognition (environmental events; door knocking and fire alarms and phone ringing and things like that; it was for a box they sell to hotels that they can have deaf-proof houses without having to wire up a system with indicator lights to all those things) on FPGAs, he gave a talk at our place. 07:11:57 yeah that's a different market 07:12:25 And our DSP course had a couple of http://www.chameleon.synth.net/english/index.shtml 's as platforms, I've always wondered whether many people have actually bought that thing to do music. 07:12:31 and I guess ARM systems on a chip aren't quite monstruously fast/low power enough for that yet 07:12:39 nobody has a chameleon :D 07:12:48 No news since 2006. 07:13:08 exactly 07:13:17 same thing happened to creamware 07:13:50 even hardware synths are losing their shine 07:16:30 3d cards are doing ok but that's in part because CPUs are terrible at bilinear 07:16:52 and gfx doesn't have too much pixel-to-pixel dependency 07:21:49 Those do get used for general-purpose calculations too a lot, though. Our cluster recently acquired 8 nodes with 2x Tesla M2090 cards, and from what I hear with something like MATLAB+GPUmat you can run your giant matrix multiplications very easily very fast on those. (That's of course all about throughput, not about latency.) 07:24:56 yeah 07:25:15 sound uses a lot of recursive filters, that's the catch with that one in particular 07:25:28 sample to sample latency 07:32:34 -!- itidus21 has joined. 07:34:19 -!- madbr has quit (Quit: Radiateur). 07:42:36 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 07:45:30 -!- monqy has joined. 07:57:45 well i think that when presented with a finite choice of processors, then it is possible to eventually determine which is the best for your type of work 08:00:54 disregard 08:03:58 -!- asiekierka has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:04:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:13:18 -!- itidus20 has joined. 08:17:05 -!- itidus21 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:21:11 -!- itidus20 has changed nick to itidus21. 08:23:44 -!- TeruFSX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:03:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:04:41 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 09:21:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Changing host). 09:21:47 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:24:55 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:12:57 "This is true in all countries that I know except for North Korea, Iran and United Kingdom" 10:19:02 i like neal stephenson.. because he is making a realistic sword fighting sim via kickstarter crowdsourcing, but i had only vaguely heard of him before 10:19:51 but on wikipedia he seems really cool 10:30:36 -!- monqy has quit (Quit: hello). 10:30:54 -!- monqy has joined. 10:33:42 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:35:54 that's the same neal stephenson who wrote In The Beginning Was The Command Line, right? 10:56:00 ya 10:56:07 according to wikipedia 11:05:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:23:41 -!- ais523_ has joined. 11:23:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 11:23:56 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 11:35:47 -!- Patashu has joined. 11:36:25 -!- Patashu has quit (Client Quit). 11:48:26 -!- Vorpal has joined. 11:59:07 -!- oonbotti has quit (Quit: oonbotti). 12:05:25 -!- sunshinehappy has joined. 12:05:39 -!- oonbotti has joined. 12:05:50 how about an anarchist programming language: Absolutely no control structures 12:06:08 :P 12:09:17 i have an idea for a programming language 12:09:29 related to that 12:10:31 get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program 12:10:46 and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output 12:11:05 and, optionally prompting you for input 12:12:02 x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation 12:12:10 :P 12:12:13 It sounds somewhat similar to IRP. 12:12:31 (http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP) 12:12:40 speaking of which 12:14:49 ahh IRP is better 12:15:31 hmm 12:15:46 99 bottles fits the description pretty close though 12:17:11 it's a really strange feeling to say: 12:17:52 i have an idea for a programming language; related to that; get a group of people... send them a text file containing your program; and have them interpret it however they like, sending you back the output; and, optionally prompting you for input; x_x oh no i have just reinvented conversation 12:18:28 and get a reply like "It sounds similar to an existant esolang" 12:18:56 -!- boily has joined. 12:18:56 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 12:19:06 -!- boily has joined. 12:20:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:34:46 -!- asiekierka_ has joined. 12:36:39 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:36:44 sunshinehappy: Eniuq doesn't have control structures (if by that you mean flow control) 12:40:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:40:08 -!- yiyus has joined. 12:40:31 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:40:42 -!- ais523_ has joined. 12:42:16 -!- ogrom has joined. 12:50:30 -!- ais523_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:52:02 -!- kallisti has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:58:14 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1801473/japanese-ascii-code 12:58:17 what the fuck...? 12:59:19 ... 13:00:45 I thought I heard pretty much every dumb question related to programming. 13:01:00 but that just tops everything I've ever seen. 13:03:01 -!- sunshinehappy has left ("Leaving"). 13:06:49 I am getting a small problem with my minidistro. I have put "nameserver 8.8.8.8" in /etc/resolv.conf but it still only finds host when I use ip address instead of address 13:07:11 s/of address/url/ 13:08:25 +of 13:08:58 mroman, why, because they confused ASCII with character code? 13:09:35 >ASCII 13:20:57 nortti, I guess dns lookup is broken? 13:24:49 nortti, try strace on nslookup google.com or something? 13:25:12 well I don't have strace or nslookup 13:25:19 host then? 13:25:25 some command line dns resolver 13:25:51 no. unless toybox or sash includes one of those 13:25:53 anyway strace is useful for debugging, if you are trying to keep the distro as small as possible just remove strace when you are done creating the thing 13:26:52 nortti, or just write a simple C program that tries to look up a hostname and run that under gdb 13:27:12 well I don't have gdb. 13:27:17 ...you tink he has gdb? 13:27:19 +h 13:27:20 nortti, whatever debugger you have then? 13:27:29 Having a debugger would make it too easy! 13:27:38 People didn't have debuggers as advanced as gdb back in teh day! 13:27:38 I have no debugger on that distro 13:28:05 also I mostöy still use so called printf debugging 13:28:05 so add one then 13:28:47 anyway strace is likely better here, since you want to see what the libc does 13:29:13 yeah. I am trying to integrate it to build system 13:30:41 nortti, what is the intended use case for this distro? 13:31:25 be as small as possible 13:31:34 nortti, why? Embedded? 13:31:48 just for fun 13:31:53 ah 13:32:26 zack said ganbatte 13:32:39 i am proud of my minimal knowlege of japanese.. 13:32:41 also building userland binaries that don't depend on dynamic libraries. 13:32:54 nortti, statically linked 13:32:55 sure 13:33:01 strace just traces system calls 13:33:05 not library calls 13:33:06 ok 13:33:24 nortti, afaik strace uses ptrace to do it (just like gdb) 13:33:29 so that should work fine 13:34:40 the funny thing to me about acronyms like ASCII and ANSI is the use of the term america to refer to the united states 13:35:04 US is very self-centred 13:35:12 lzma doesn't want to extract strace-4.7.tar.xz 13:35:19 nortti, xz != lzma 13:35:28 xz is like lzma version 2 13:35:33 use the xzdec command 13:35:43 (or xz -d iirc) 13:35:55 although ASCII might be representative of all of north and south america, somehow, i doubt it :D 13:36:08 -!- stanley_ has joined. 13:36:28 itidus21, they all like to call things "national", like "national institute of whatever" 13:36:37 lol 13:36:49 in the rest of the world we usually name those after the country instead 13:36:55 -!- stanley has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 13:37:29 like "SMHI" (Sveriges Meteorologiska och Hydrologiska Institut). Translates to Sweden's Meteorological and Hydrological Institute 13:37:42 Vorpal: we in the UK do something similar; "Royal Whatever" almost always means British 13:37:46 hm true 13:37:52 i quite enjoy seth uh.. -strains- mcfarlane cartoons about usa 13:38:59 with the sun in the sky and a smile on my face, something something salute to the american race 13:39:16 which race is that? 13:39:18 -!- ais523_ has joined. 13:39:29 the native inidians? 13:39:50 ahh here it is 13:39:55 "I got a feeling that it's gonna be a wonderful day! The sun in the sky has a smile on his face! And he's shinin' a salute to the American race!" 13:39:59 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 13:40:37 itidus21, presumably that refers to the native people of the US 13:40:46 i have no idea 13:40:59 its very tongue in cheek show 13:41:02 and doesn't include the natives of Canada and so on 13:44:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5cS18c0GVk 13:44:56 its worth it to understand what im saying.. :D 13:45:13 sound is terrible but best version of the video i could find 13:45:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 13:46:04 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 13:46:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:46:23 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:47:18 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 13:48:20 bbiab 13:51:43 @dict urban bbiab 13:51:44 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:51:44 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:51:44 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:51:54 @dict jargon bbiab 13:51:55 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:51:55 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:51:55 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:54:14 @google bbiab 13:54:15 http://www.internetslang.com/BBIAB-meaning-definition.asp 13:54:16 Title: What does BBIAB mean? - BBIAB Definition - Meaning of BBIAB - InternetSlang.com 13:54:28 close but no cigar 13:55:00 @dict 13:55:01 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:55:01 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:55:01 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:55:46 @dict all-dicts bbiab 13:55:47 Supported dictionary-lookup commands: 13:55:47 all-dicts devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon lojban vera web1913 wn world02 13:55:47 Use "dict-help [cmd...]" for more. 13:55:56 @all-dicts bbiab 13:55:57 *** "bbiab" vera "V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms (June 2006)" 13:55:57 BBIAB 13:55:57 [I'll] Be Back In A Bit (telecommunication, Usenet, IRC) 13:55:57 13:56:58 urban dict says "the most annoying fucking abbreviation to look at. ever" 13:58:44 @all-dicts cuui 13:58:44 No match for "cuui". 14:01:18 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:03:34 rebuilding my distro after figuring out how to produce static strace 14:04:53 -!- stanley_ has quit (Changing host). 14:04:53 -!- stanley_ has joined. 14:05:01 -!- copumpkin has joined. 14:05:04 -!- stanley_ has changed nick to stanley. 14:07:35 mroman, hi 14:07:37 :P 14:07:51 anyway I'm leaving quite soon. 14:08:08 nortti, was static strace hard? 14:08:19 nortti, anyway surely you could just build strace and add it to the distro? 14:08:34 well I had to hand patch some config files 14:08:35 rather than rebuilding the whole thing 14:08:38 nortti, oh? 14:08:48 what sort of config files 14:09:01 debian/rules 14:09:07 for strace or for something else? 14:09:13 for strace 14:09:15 anyway why are you using the debian build system 14:09:21 LFS for the win ;P 14:09:48 well it didn't add -static to CFLAGS otherwise 14:09:56 seriously though, the debian build system is painfully over-complicated, with a large suite of different tools used to generate or edit those files 14:10:09 uh, 14:10:16 nortti, I mean ./configure CFLAGS="-static" or something like that 14:10:31 sash doesn't seem to handle redirects very well 14:10:40 redirects? 14:11:07 nortti, anyway you might want to use ccache if you aren't already. Should help speeding up the compiling 14:11:32 redirecting stdin, out and err 14:11:39 ah... 14:11:45 that is quite a bad shell then 14:11:50 why not use ash? 14:11:55 the busybox ash is quite good 14:12:14 I know. it was my main shell until yesterday 14:12:41 I am using sash until toysh becomes usable 14:12:41 busybox as main shell must be painful 14:12:50 why? 14:13:07 it was very nice shell with tab completition and all 14:13:07 well not the shell as such, but all the other busybox parts 14:13:14 the busybox ps is quite limited for example iirc 14:13:31 compared to the normal ps on linux 14:13:36 not really. currently I use mix between busybox and toybox 14:14:01 nortti, oh come on, compare busybox ps --help and the man page for the usual ps found on linux 14:14:10 what is ccache by the way? 14:14:21 Vorpal: I have done it 14:15:10 nortti, ccache caches object files (you set a size limit, say 1 GB or so, for the disk cache). It can help reduce compile time when you compile the same source a lot 14:15:20 like when you are working on a large project in C or C++ 14:15:44 oh 14:15:47 nortti, it hashes the compiler flags and all resulting source file after the preprocessor 14:15:50 iirc 14:16:12 well anyway, it won't break stuff due to you changing CFLAGS or so 14:16:27 I think you can confuse it by switching gcc version used though 14:17:03 nortti, anyway it does slow down the initial compile slightly (due to the overhead of caching) but after that it helps a lot 14:17:47 nortti, I don't know how much you keep rebuilding the same source, or how long that takes up 14:17:54 s/up/you/ 14:18:00 (how did that typo happen?) 14:19:53 nortti, btw just in case, make sure resolv.conf has a trailing newline. I'm not sure that file needs it, but I have seen crontab and what not break without trailing newlines 14:20:42 also, bbl 14:20:57 (will be back in several hours) 14:21:45 Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 14:22:39 -!- stanley has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 14:24:44 Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P) 14:25:42 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:26:03 -!- stanley has joined. 14:26:07 -!- stanley has quit (Changing host). 14:26:07 -!- stanley has joined. 14:26:40 @tell Vorpal in case you missed these two 17:21 < nortti> Vorpal: complete distro userland rebuild (including strace) takes around 3 minutes on my 700MHz Pentium III 17:24 < nortti> Vorpal: also one reason why I am using sash is because it provides most of the functionality missing from toybox (like cp :P) 14:26:40 Consider it noted. 14:33:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:33:36 -!- ais523_ has joined. 14:34:15 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 14:38:30 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:40:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:48:55 piuh 14:48:56 ytc 14:54:29 hi all! 14:55:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:01:25 -!- augur has joined. 15:07:30 -!- Taneb has joined. 15:08:40 Hello! 15:20:32 hii 15:22:16 -!- zzo38 has joined. 15:28:34 hi z 15:35:39 -!- MoALTz has joined. 15:44:25 -!- augur_ has joined. 15:44:30 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:52:21 -!- yiyus has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:07:02 -!- ogrom has quit (Quit: Left). 16:16:27 -!- yiyus has joined. 16:17:43 -!- ogrom has joined. 16:23:35 -!- kallisti has joined. 16:23:35 -!- kallisti has quit (Changing host). 16:23:35 -!- kallisti has joined. 16:34:02 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 16:34:49 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:40:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 16:53:44 -!- nooga has joined. 16:53:57 looks like i've found new hobby 16:53:59 http://www.unlambda.com/download/cadr/CADR4_schematic.pdf 16:56:12 what is that. I'm too lazy to start up X server 16:56:59 MIT lisp machine schematics 16:57:24 ooh. you are working with one? 16:58:03 noo 16:59:12 you are creating emulator? 17:01:39 i will bake this in a FPGA 17:02:18 is the software available? 17:03:08 i think so, since the guy who wrote emulator posted some screenshots ;D 17:04:03 I'm slowly becoming British 17:04:06 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeou. 17:05:01 what? 17:05:07 -!- kwertii has joined. 17:05:08 -!- kwertii has quit (Changing host). 17:05:08 -!- kwertii has joined. 17:05:11 why? 17:05:24 I'm addicted to Red Dwarf, A Bit of Fry and Laurie, QI, Doctor Who 17:06:12 oh 17:06:45 nortti: why don't you run X all the time? 17:07:07 it slows down my computer too much and uses around 50% of my memory 17:07:37 oh, they've called from the 90's, they want their machine back 17:07:52 this machine is from 2000 17:07:57 nooga, we've had this conversation with him, you can stop. 17:08:02 ok 17:08:21 Although it may help to know that he found the computer in a dumpster. 17:08:26 maybe try raspberry pi 17:08:42 ooh 17:08:57 well I'd have to buy new monitor, mouse, keyboard, hard drive... 17:09:14 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: brb). 17:09:43 but yeah. I could consisder it if they get decent RISC OS 5 port running on it 17:10:20 today i watched an aussie guy on youtube that got like truckload of HP workstations from a scrapyard 17:10:43 quide decent computers actually 17:10:48 with SATA and stuff 17:10:53 nooga: but yeah. I'm on trouble with 90's and 80's wanting their computers back 17:11:27 I used a computer from 2001 until maybe 2007 17:11:30 build a beowulf cluster from them 17:11:35 It was pain 17:11:37 but my school is in trouble with 70's wanthing their reel to reel tape recorders back :P 17:11:56 Sgeou: only 7 years? 17:13:16 i've never had a computer with gaming class video card 17:13:25 now I'm getting iBook g3 from 2001 for assembly summer 2012 17:13:46 decent CPUs and RAM but no graphics ;< 17:14:20 HoMM3 & TTD 17:14:21 The other laptop here is a G4 iBook from 2003 or thereabouts, and it's already being a bit of a problem, since it has OS X on it, and everyone's stopped supporting PPC. 17:14:33 -!- stanley has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 17:14:36 fizzie: which version? 17:14:40 Firefox 3.x is the last Firefox that runs on OS X/PPC, I believe. 17:14:50 geez 17:14:51 Version of OS X? 10.4. 17:14:56 -!- stanley has joined. 17:14:57 fizzie: have you heard of TenFourFox 17:15:08 Yes, but I forget what the problem there was. 17:15:17 fizzie: I used it when my iBook g4 worked 17:15:19 i've got MacBook Pro, late 2011 17:15:56 I've got Mac Classic, preforma 475 and dead iBook g4 17:16:37 and now I'm getting iBook g3 dual usb with OS X 10.4 17:16:43 OS X is nice but can be infuriating when it comes to some deeper hacking 17:16:55 I had one of these: http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml 17:17:02 (Then I sold it off.) 17:17:21 fizzie: also you can try what I did and build almost complete netbsd system on top of darwin kernel 17:17:37 what for? 17:17:57 well netbsd is better supported 17:18:03 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 17:18:23 It's not my laptop, so I can't. I do have one that's very similar, but I haven't used it in a while, since I have this other laptop from 2011. 17:18:30 but why darwin? 17:18:36 It has some sort of a PPC Linux on it, though. 17:18:47 nooga: because OS X 17:19:09 On the Performa I ran MkLinux, it was quite an experience too. 17:19:10 fizzie: what you mean by very similar? 17:19:22 i don't think there is any point in running darwin if you don't have the rest of the OS 17:19:42 -!- Galactica has joined. 17:19:48 there are some better kernels, i think 17:20:25 nortti: Another G4 iBook that's pretty much the same model, since it was bought not more than a month or two apart, and has slightly different specs. 17:20:56 nooga: well what I had was netbsd running on top of darwin while also having tweaked os x running at the same time 17:21:45 oh 17:22:27 it was a pain to get to work initialy but when I got pkgsrc my life got a much easier 17:22:53 also it fixed some braindeadness of OS X 17:22:56 I have no time to hack 17:23:11 ;< 17:24:02 I think that if you don't want to hack you can install pkgsrc on OS X other ways 17:24:35 i've got homebrew 17:25:39 I originaly hand compiled everything 17:26:43 getting mosaic-ck to work was one of the most satisfying moments 17:27:20 -!- Galactica has left. 17:30:26 thinking about which is there easy way to run motif programs with framebuffer as output device 17:30:58 nortti: You are reminding me of a thing. 17:31:02 I will try to find the thing. 17:31:15 what thing? 17:31:20 I will try to find it. 17:31:29 -!- stanley has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:31:32 Also Flash (or the lack of it) was the problem with TenFourFox. 17:31:49 you could enable it on about:config 17:32:06 or use flashvideoreplaces and qte and such 17:32:48 http://www.saunalambusplaza.net/peliplaza/kolumnit.php "Asensimpa taas Liinuksen", specifically this bit: "-- päätin asentaa sen autotallissa ilman valoja vanhaan Mäkintosh -koneeseen. Tuo kapistus onkin aina ollut onnettomana kohteena silloin kun kokeilunhaluni pääsee valloilleen, ja nytkin siinä oli pohjalla MacOS ja NetWare vitonen, jotka käynnistyvät yhtäaikaa." 17:32:54 That thing. 17:33:43 (Sorry about the language, for our few non-Finnish readers.) 17:33:56 They can go to #esoteric-en 17:33:59 hyvaa paivaa 17:34:11 fizzie: :P 17:34:33 fizzie: I could imagine myself in that situation 17:35:19 nooga: eikö sulla oo ääkkösiä sun näppiksessä? 17:35:48 They have lost the "Gormic the Insuranced" RPG parody article I remember the old Mikrotietokonepelit thing having, when they combined that and the "Saunalambus Plaza" thing. 17:36:01 Which is a shame. 17:36:31 It had a title something like "Viimeinkin naksahti", and it's about how he finally flips out after playing pen-and-paper RPGs for such a long time, and starts murdering people for reals. 17:37:10 fizzie: the one on the top of the page is bit wtf 17:37:22 nortti: Yeah, it's new. Clearly the new things are a bit stupid. 17:37:28 nortti: huh? :E 17:37:34 I think the same thing goes for the other subpages. 17:38:05 nooga: It's supposed to be "hyvää päivää", and that sounds very different than "hyvaa paivaa". 17:38:32 nooga: it means: "don't you have å,ä and ö in your keyboard" 17:38:48 i don't have ä when using terminal 17:38:57 Is that a dumb terminal from the 60s? 17:39:26 well, it's Terminal.app and maybe it's dumb 17:39:35 normally i'd hold 'a' key 17:39:40 -!- sirdancealot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:40:01 If I recall correctly, Terminal.app had problems with the "bright black" color. 17:40:14 The "it's just black" kind of problems. 17:40:18 it did? 17:40:26 I may misremember. 17:40:32 I never noticed that. 17:40:55 http://macosx.com/forums/unix-x11/21100-terminal-ansi-color-dark-grey.html agrees- 17:41:17 -!- calamari has joined. 17:42:13 i like how i can make Terminal.app full screen 17:42:21 I remember seeing a binary patch kind of thing somewhere to make it work. 17:42:49 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:43:01 i keep tabs, it looks almost like plain old text mode and i can just scroll to my desktop using 3 fingers 17:45:25 I used urxvt and X11.app, though it wasn't terribly pleasant experience either. 17:45:41 I used xterm and X11.app 17:45:53 I liked it 17:46:26 try Cathode 17:46:45 Well, it worked. But I vaguely recall having some keyboard difficulties. There was some confusion when it came to the OS X keymap and the X11 one. Anyway, moot point now. 17:47:30 Oh, so retro. 17:47:55 hipsters everywhere :F 17:48:10 The Apple ][ screensaver in xscreensaver does some monitor emulation things too, and IIRC you can use it as a regular terminal emulator with the right command flags. 17:48:16 Or maybe it was some other of the hacks. But still. 17:48:44 "Apple2 – simulates an Apple II computer, showing a user entering a simple BASIC program and running it. When run from the command-line, it is a fully functional terminal emulator (as is Phosphor.)" yes it was like that. 17:48:53 It's probably not OpenGL-accelerated though. 17:50:19 yeah 17:50:24 its libphosphor 17:56:12 -!- stanley has joined. 18:04:38 I feel need to design a language 18:07:10 go on. 18:07:19 Hopefully it's not a brainfuck derivative. 18:08:16 i hate them 18:08:34 rather something minimal and elegant 18:10:18 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:11:08 -!- stanley has left ("Leaving"). 18:12:15 Hey, are there any Game of Life programs capable of seeding an infinite random grid? 18:12:31 I think Life32's grid is infinite, but can it randomly seed it? 18:13:21 Sounds somewhat difficult. 18:15:58 -!- Sgeou has changed nick to Sgeo. 18:16:20 Even if you're only interested in a single cell, to know what happens to it in generation k you'd have to consider every place that can be reached from it at the speed of light in k ticks. 18:18:15 try limiting the speed 18:18:35 of information propagation in the world 18:18:52 it gives funny effects like something that looks like doppler effect 18:18:55 for gliders 18:19:34 fizzie, didn't say it would be efficient 18:20:06 nooga, hmm? 18:23:17 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: kwertii). 18:30:47 -!- ogrom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:31:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:31:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:50:47 * tswett ponders a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets. 18:51:28 lisp? 18:51:34 Seems simple enough. Say that (...) means the first thing within it applied to all of the rest of the things within it. I'm not sure what () would mean. 18:51:44 Then [...] means all of the things within it, composed. [] is the identity function. 18:51:51 hm. 18:52:48 Lessee. (...) follows the rule that ((X)Y), where X and Y are strings of expressions, is equal to (XY). 18:53:16 It follows that (()Y) should be equal to (Y). Thus, () should also be the identity function. 18:55:23 Now, we'll want to be able to express the S and K combinators somehow. 18:56:18 We might want to say that {abc...}x = ((ax)(bx)(cx)...). Then {} is KI, which doesn't seem that useful. 18:57:07 -!- Taneb has joined. 18:58:28 Then, of course, {ab} is Sab. 18:58:31 Hello! 18:58:38 Hi, Taneb. 18:58:46 Quick context? 18:59:03 I'm pondering a functional programming language where programs consist of sets of matched brackets. 18:59:49 Souns cool 18:59:59 *t 19:00:03 s/t/d/ 19:00:05 It'd be more fun if it was a language where programs consist solely of sets of UNmatched brackets. 19:00:21 Tal vez. 19:00:30 " Sounds coot" 19:02:06 ("Tal vez" is Hebrew for "fuck off".) 19:07:46 Does anyone know if Netflix and Spotify have linux clients? 19:08:21 -!- sirdancealot has joined. 19:08:49 `welcome sirdancealot 19:08:59 sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:08:59 ohai 19:09:07 :D 19:09:35 `welcome sirdancealot 19:09:39 sirdancealot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:09:50 We want you to feel as welcome as possible. 19:09:55 `welcome tswett 19:09:57 halp, theyre testing their bot on me 19:09:58 tswett: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 19:10:11 (how's tswett pronounced? T-Sweat?" 19:10:15 Taneb: thank you! <3 19:10:21 And yes, that's exactly how you pronounce it. 19:10:24 :) 19:11:11 My name is also the name of a famous moirallegiance. 19:11:22 If "they" were testing the bot, they'd use some of those weirdly capitulated or wide versions. 19:11:31 Are you on Sgeo's update list? 19:11:39 I think so. 19:11:52 I didn't think of you as a Homestuck fan 19:12:17 I converted tswett 19:12:20 :) 19:12:22 I'm also the guy that invented chromatography in the year 1900. 19:12:30 My first name is Mikhail. 19:12:34 nice to meet you 19:12:45 And my name is Marie Curie. 19:12:53 nice to meet you too 19:12:59 But I died of beeing to radioactive. 19:13:12 I'm just Taneb, or Ngevd online. 19:13:24 Nathan irl, if you happen to meet me 19:13:25 *too 19:13:42 Taneb: do you live in West Michigan or Chicago? 19:13:50 No 19:13:58 I live in the CAPITAL OF ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING, Hexham 19:14:10 sirdancealot, do you live in Hexham or Finland? 19:14:12 In... 19:14:14 * tswett looks up. 19:14:15 -!- Dovregubben has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:14:20 Northumberland? 19:14:22 Yeah 19:14:31 Me and elliott live there, but we've never met eachother? 19:14:50 1 in 6000 people here frequent this channel 19:15:07 That's more than any place where more than 1 person frequents the channel 19:15:37 So, you live near Manchester. 19:15:42 No? 19:15:45 Nowhere near 19:15:49 Like, 100 miles away 19:16:14 150, according to google maps 19:16:16 -!- Dovregubben has joined. 19:16:33 It's probably closer to edinburgh than to manchester. 19:16:50 By more than 50 miles 19:16:58 It's quite close to Newcastle? 19:17:17 You know, I've never looked at the UK and the US on a map with the same scale. 19:17:34 Have you found a map that does that? 19:17:53 Wait, all world maps have to do that. 19:17:57 I thought you meant superimposed. 19:18:25 The UK's... bigger than I though 19:18:26 t 19:18:26 So the UK is about as big as... Newfoundland and Labrador? 19:18:36 I've never heard of that. 19:18:41 Well, yes I have. 19:18:45 oh i see. 19:18:52 Hexham is right next to new castle. 19:18:53 The UK is farther north than I thought. 19:19:11 Yeah, I'm further north than the vast majority of the people in Canada 19:19:24 Conclusion: the US is annoyingly large. 19:19:39 Taneb: how north are you? 19:19:42 Hexham north 19:19:51 55 degrees, I think 19:20:11 I thought I knew Hexham by name. 19:20:11 54.9, according to Wikipedia 19:20:13 oh. I'm 65 degrees north 19:20:24 And I'm... 43 degrees north. 19:20:25 Yeah, but you're in Finland 19:20:29 THE LAND OF THE FINNS 19:20:35 The weather here still sucks. 19:20:48 Average summer high: 28 C. Blegh. 19:20:53 28 whole Cs? 19:20:57 I'd be so lucky. 19:21:00 28 entire C! 19:21:08 It's... 17 C here today 19:21:16 uk area: 94,060 sq mi, arizona area: 113,990 sq mi 19:21:28 28 C, isn't that... perfect? 19:21:39 Not too hot, not too cold. 19:21:53 I'd say 24? 19:22:02 that is far too hot. around 17 C is good 19:22:16 36 C is hot. 19:22:19 It's 17 and really wet here 19:22:23 30 is hot 19:22:32 30 is hot too. 19:22:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:22:40 24 is pretty hot 19:22:43 Nah. 19:22:46 24 is sunbathing temperature 19:22:46 24 is almost cold again. 19:22:50 No way. 19:22:54 12 is almost cold again 19:22:55 26,27 is perfect. 19:22:58 -30 is cold 19:23:02 The average summer high in Edinburgh is colder than that in Helsinki. 19:23:04 WAY TOO HOT 19:23:06 everything under 20 C is cold. 19:23:20 Phantom_Hoover, british temperature doesn't vary much 19:23:29 Indeed. 19:23:34 I wish it were 30 here 19:23:48 Coldest I've seen, -12? Warmest, 29? 19:24:18 coldest I have seen was about -38 and warmest about 40 19:24:51 36 right now, which is cooler than it has been 19:24:59 Dear god where are you 19:25:09 tucson, arizona 19:25:22 phoenix and yuma are hotter than us 19:25:24 Serves you right for being so far damn south 19:25:28 Arizona is barely fit for human habitation though. 19:25:28 lol 19:25:32 -20 at night. 19:25:39 not bad 19:25:39 So I didn't really see it :) 19:26:39 I've heard it's been a not very warm July this year in (at least southern) Finland. 19:26:56 Same here in swiss. 19:27:02 It's fucking raining all the time. 19:27:06 14.81 C at the moment according to outside.hut.fi, which I always check. 19:27:10 heh so I implemented a locking mechanism (to enforce single instance).. and then I realized it does not work because this program launches a gui thread and so my lock dies 19:27:33 raining, hail, storms 19:27:45 You've got exciting rain. 19:27:58 We've just got sporadic miserable drizzle, followed by flooding 19:28:38 And then bright sunshine 19:28:43 It's not exciting rain. 19:28:47 It sometimes gets all the way up to 21 19:28:49 It's very heavy rain. 19:29:01 It's raining cats and dogs! 19:29:19 Lie close to the roof and listen to it :) 19:30:01 here the rain is also pretty boring except when it rains sideways 19:30:22 It sometimes rains upwards here 19:30:36 I'd like to see that 19:32:19 Are you walking in handstand position on hexham abbey? 19:32:51 me? 19:33:21 nah. 19:33:23 him. 19:34:11 Of course 19:34:17 It's the best way to get around 19:36:59 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.). 19:39:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 19:39:54 neat. without extra binaries like strace my clean build of userland of my distro take 1 minute and 44 seconds on my machine 19:40:05 -my 19:42:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:50:32 * oerjan thinks today 19:50:41 's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P 19:50:55 -!- Taneb has joined. 19:51:16 * oerjan thinks today's mezzacotta comic is pretty good :P 19:51:35 well for a mezzacotta comic 19:52:58 "It's an incomprehensible labyrinth of nonsense, but it's pretty good. 19:52:59 " 19:54:15 Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations 19:55:49 `addquote < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations 19:55:51 850) < oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogleable citations 19:56:20 ... wut? 19:56:26 just so that your quote is searchable . 20:01:51 -!- Gregor has set topic: The Ünicode lookup channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 20:05:38 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:07:54 -!- MoALTz has joined. 20:09:53 -!- calamari has joined. 20:31:46 -!- asiekierka_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:39:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:42:35 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:43:28 I've came to realise that creating a pair of Turing-complete machines and a correspondence such that a program in one machine halts iff the corresponding program in the other machine doesn't, would solve the halting problem 20:43:51 how? 20:44:27 Either the program in the first machine or the corresponding machine in the second machine halts in finite time 20:44:42 -!- calamari has joined. 20:44:48 Hang on 20:44:56 Why didn't I listen to my past self 20:45:26 Wait 20:45:58 Executing both simultaneously and waiting for one to halt, then stopping both, is guaranteed to halt, at which point you can inspect which halted 20:47:54 sounds like a proof that there is no such correspondence 20:48:09 Yes 20:48:35 Considering that there are more than two Turing-complete computation modelly things 20:48:58 For instance, untyped lambda calculus and Wang's bathroom tiles 20:49:17 And the original Turing Machine 20:51:05 You mean, M1 halts, if P halts, and doesn't if P doesn't halt 20:51:22 and M2 halts, if P doesn't halt, and doesn't halt if P halts? 20:52:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:52:34 -!- KlonMac7 has joined. 20:52:44 hello 20:52:48 Hello 20:52:54 `welcome KlonMac7 20:52:57 KlonMac7: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 20:53:10 mroman, precisely 20:53:55 At least sounds like it busts the halting problem. 20:54:34 Hence, as the Halting problem has been repeatedly proven to be unsolvable, there is no such alternating correspondence between two Turing-machines 20:55:33 KlonMac7: hello, i noticed your language has no flow control yet... 20:56:21 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 20:56:52 Is there an actual concrete program for which it is impossible to solve the halting problem? 20:57:08 mroman: an interpreter of a TC language >:) 20:57:35 That doesn't quite count. 20:57:38 If by program, you mean program/input pair, I don't think so 20:57:52 mroman: Why doesn't it count? 20:57:53 But goodnight! 20:57:57 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:58:07 There are certainly plenty of programs which we have no idea whether they'll halt or not. 20:58:32 shachaf: Because the interpreter can be reduced to the problem of the halting problem of the program it is executing. 20:58:42 so the interpreter is just a layer we can ignore. 20:58:54 mroman: note that for a given program and input, there always exists _some_ program that can tell whether it halts or not. (print "Halts" and print "Doesn't halt") 20:58:57 if a bf program terminates, so does it's interpreter. 20:59:02 *one of 20:59:25 oerjan: Classicalist! 20:59:28 Classicist? 20:59:30 Whatever. 20:59:48 oerjan: That's what I figured. 21:00:25 The question is, does a program exists that does it in finite time? 21:00:29 -s 21:00:54 mroman: You should probably read what oerjan said again. 21:00:58 mroman: um one of those does so in _constant_ time. 21:01:46 Which just makes the halting problem less significant for me. 21:02:29 mroman: Yes, I'm pretty sure you should read what oerjan said again. :-) 21:02:39 to clarify, the _programs_ are 'print "Halts"' and 'print "Doesn't halt"' 21:03:08 and one of them always gives the right answer (says the classicist) 21:03:12 that's just more confusing actually. 21:03:21 oh. 21:03:31 You're sugesting a program that guesses? 21:03:34 +g 21:03:38 no fair. 21:03:42 -!- KlonMac7 has quit (Quit: IRCDisconnect! - IRCMod by TheEndermen). 21:03:53 No. 21:03:55 mroman: no, i'm suggesting two programs. for any given input, one of them will be correct. 21:04:10 Unless you know which one, that's pretty much useless 21:04:17 and not what I meant to ask for actually. 21:04:47 mroman: the point i'm really trying to point out here is that unsolvability doesn't make _sense_ for a single program/input case. 21:04:53 *make here 21:05:20 Well. 21:05:41 If you can solve the halting problem with a program written by a human for a given program written by a human 21:06:13 the halting problem says that there is no way to construct a program that tells correctly for _every_ halting question instance. 21:06:22 (or written by a program written by a human) 21:06:26 *the halting theorem 21:06:50 mroman: now you are getting into AI theory, because that's needed to define those terms... 21:07:02 doesn't that mean that you can solve it for every program a human can write 21:07:16 and humans can write every program that can exist. 21:07:25 mroman: um a human can write a program that they don't know whether halts or not. 21:07:30 Humans can't write every program that exists. 21:07:42 And it's easy to write a program that no one knows whether it'll halt. 21:07:52 (And that people care about whether it'll halt, also.) 21:07:59 So 21:08:03 That's what I asked for. 21:08:06 Such a program. 21:08:44 also 21:08:55 no one knows doesn't quite mean that it can't be solved at all. 21:09:10 for (i = 0; ; i++) { if (containsNon421Cycle(collatz(i))) { halt(); } } 21:09:30 That's a classical example program, yes. 21:10:06 but afaik it's just not proven *yet* that it always ends up in the same cycle. 21:10:43 mroman: so? it is by no means unlikely that many of the unsolved mathematical problems are unsolvable 21:10:45 OK. Lots of things aren't proven *yet*. 21:11:11 perhaps collatz can be solved, but then almost certainly some other problem cannot 21:13:24 > head [n | n <- [1, 3..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]] 21:13:28 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 21:13:32 shocking 21:13:33 -!- nortti_ has joined. 21:13:44 > head [n | n <- [2, 4..], n == sum [m | m <- [1..n-1], n `mod` m == 0]] 21:13:45 6 21:15:39 mroman: also disallowing things embedding interpreters is disingenious because embedding an interpreter for something TC is the main way most proofs of unsolvability are done. 21:19:03 for example, i could write a program that searches for solutions to the post correspondence theorem and that would be an example of a program whose halting problem is undecidable - but the reason we _know_ that is because the turing machine halting problem can be encoded into it. 21:19:11 but if a Program in a TC language terminates, so does the interpreter. 21:19:22 as well as the interpreter interpreting the interpreter interpreting the program 21:19:25 which is essentially a form of interpretation. 21:19:51 mroman: yes, and so? 21:20:47 That means that an interpreter is a bad example program as an answer to my question. 21:21:37 mroman: yes, but as i say most _known_ example program are known precisely because they are interpreters in disguise ... sometimes deeply disguised. 21:21:43 *programs 21:22:29 there might be counterexamples which i haven't heard about. 21:23:48 or there might not be. 21:28:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8). 21:36:26 -!- Vorpal has joined. 21:48:37 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 21:54:29 I liked the season 1-2 intro better 22:15:35 So do I, but it works a lot better with those seasons than later ones. 22:21:29 -!- nortti_ has joined. 22:22:38 soundnfury: what language are you using to implement your lisp on spectrum? 22:34:58 -!- nortti_ has quit (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )). 22:40:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuNs1v_jtfs 23:02:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Ribbit). 23:06:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:06:44 Phantom_Hoover, I meant the music 23:07:04 The same is true of that. 23:10:35 argh the fan in my window a/c just got loud 23:11:09 wonder how much of a pain in the ass it will be to figure out where it is and fix it 23:22:13 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:34:25 -!- Veronica has joined. 23:35:21 hola 23:35:31 `welcome Veronica 23:35:34 Veronica: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) 23:35:42 THank 23:35:56 `WELCOME oerjan 23:36:00 OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.) 23:36:08 ¿how are you? 23:36:10 shachaf: THANKS 23:36:25 Welcome Shachaf 23:36:34 `thanks 23:36:37 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: thanks: not found 23:36:40 :) 23:36:49 oerjan: YOU'RE WELCOME 23:36:54 (WAIT, DID I JUST SAY THAT?) 23:36:57 Gracias 23:36:57 OH NOES 23:37:04 HAblas español 23:37:25 Nope 23:37:34 holaaaaaaaaa 23:37:39 `WELCOME OERJAN 23:37:40 alguien habla español 23:37:42 ​OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS 23:38:03 OERJAN: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLA 23:38:21 holaaaaaaaaaa 23:38:22 bye 23:38:47 this unicode is getting out of hand 23:39:13 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 23:39:58 oerjan: ami guilt yof ru iningt hischa nnel? 23:40:13 -!- Veronica has left. 23:41:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Unicode smackdown channel | Individuals guilty of ruining this channel: itidus21 (ex officio), oerjan (ex cathedra), Gregor (ex post facto), olsner (k ex), ion (deus ex), shachaf (ex machina), others (see /names) | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/. 23:41:33 shachaf: kahdeksankymmeltäyhdeksän? 23:42:20 olsner: More like "kahdeksankymmentäyhdeksän". 23:42:30 lern2finnish 23:42:38 shachaf: ok 23:42:49 olsner: And then teach me. :-( 23:43:48 airo on meidän